Cool, can we send him to Afghanistan now to tell people that the Koran-burners don't represent us?

Question semi-OT, is Eid ul-Fitr this year really on Saturday? Because over here we're celebrating it on Friday (though the government-set holiday is usually the following Monday).

I dunno. I really get skeptical of this guy wrapping himself in the American flag like that. It strikes me as just another of the masks he wears.

Let's send him to Iran and straighten this out...

"The Holocaust is nothing but superstition, but Zionists say that people of the world should be forced to accept this," he was quoted as saying by the state news agency IRNA.

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

It was striking: a Christian president and a Jewish mayor of New York supporting the rights of Muslims. Their statements sent a powerful message about what America stands for, and will be remembered as a milestone in improving American-Muslim relations.

Yes, it was striking, and damn it, it was AMERICA. Love it or leave it! ha.

re: #4 Walter L. Newton

Let's send him to Iran and straighten this out...

"The Holocaust is nothing but superstition, but Zionists say that people of the world should be forced to accept this," he was quoted as saying by the state news agency IRNA.

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

Downer Dan

re: #3 Dark_Falcon

I dunno. I really get skeptical of this guy wrapping himself in the American flag like that. It strikes me as just another of the masks he wears.

You do realize that he's american, right?

Unbelievable.

We're just missing Brookly now.

re: #3 Dark_Falcon

I dunno. I really get skeptical of this guy wrapping himself in the American flag like that. It strikes me as just another of the masks he wears.

Or he could be the moderate that both Bush and Obama trusted to act as a good will messenger to the Muslim world. (just a thought)

re: #7 ShaunP

You do realize that he's american, right?

Obviously he's not American enough. Wonder why he's different?

re: #10 Stanley Sea

Obviously he's not American enough. Wonder why he's different?

Gotta love conservatives and their patriotism slider rule.

re: #7 ShaunP

You do realize that he's american, right?

I've criticized other Americans about wrapping themselves in the flag when I'm unsure of their sincerity. I just don't trust this guy. I support his rights against Crazy Pam's attacks, but he makes me suspicious.

re: #4 Walter L. Newton

Let's send him to Iran and straighten this out...

"The Holocaust is nothing but superstition, but Zionists say that people of the world should be forced to accept this," he was quoted as saying by the state news agency IRNA.

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

Castro did that today.

re: #12 Dark_Falcon

I've criticized other Americans about wrapping themselves in the flag when I'm unsure of their sincerity. I just don't trust this guy. I support his rights against Crazy Pam's attacks, but he makes me suspicious.

OK, fair enough, but why are you suspicious ?

Unbelievable that Rauf is speaking out, per demands, in a fantastic way.

And it's not enough.

Complete lack of critical thinking.

re: #13 avanti

Castro did that today.

Castro is a piece of shit. Fuck him.

re: #4 Walter L. Newton

Let's send him to Iran and straighten this out...

"The Holocaust is nothing but superstition, but Zionists say that people of the world should be forced to accept this," he was quoted as saying by the state news agency IRNA.

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

As we don't have diplomatic relations allowing freedom of travel to Iran, we can't. But if we did, he'd be my first choice up to bat to have a chat with them over there. I'm liking this guy more and more, the more I hear from him.

re: #14 avanti

OK, fair enough, but why are you suspicious ?

I see him as talking out of both sides of his mouth. i tend to distrust such people. I know he doesn't provide support to terrorists, and I'm not accusing him of supporting terror in any capacity. But I remain leery of him. That said, he has rights and I stand by my conviction that those rights should be protected.

re: #18 Dark_Falcon

I see him as talking out of both sides of his mouth. i tend to distrust such people. I know he doesn't provide support to terrorists, and I'm not accusing him of supporting terror in any capacity. But I remain leery of him.

What would it take for him to gain your trust?

re: #15 Stanley Sea

Unbelievable that Rauf is speaking out, per demands, in a fantastic way.

And it's not enough.

Complete lack of critical thinking.

It's never enough for the conservobigots.

Okay, so here's part one of my Burning Man write up

It took a while to write, yeep *_*

re: #19 elbruce

What would it take for him to gain your trust?

You really trust this guy?

I don't trust anybody except my family and a handful of friends .

re: #2 laZardo

Question semi-OT, is Eid ul-Fitr this year really on Saturday? Because over here we're celebrating it on Friday (though the government-set holiday is usually the following Monday).

Eid should be on Thursday, same day as Rosh Hashanah this year, but the source I just checked said that in North America it will be observed on Friday, due to 'sightability' issues. I assume the 'sightability' is that of the new moon.

re: #4 Walter L. Newton

Let's send him to Iran and straighten this out...

"The Holocaust is nothing but superstition, but Zionists say that people of the world should be forced to accept this," he was quoted as saying by the state news agency IRNA.

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

To clarify, the person quoted as saying that is Grand Ayatollah Naser Makarem Shirazi, not Imam Rauf.

re: #22 NJDhockeyfan

You really trust this guy?

I don't trust anybody except my family and a handful of friends .

trust no one, mister mulder

re: #19 elbruce

What would it take for him to gain your trust?

Don't even bother, this isn't rational stuff, this is politics :P

re: #3 Dark_Falcon

I dunno. I really get skeptical of this guy wrapping himself in the American flag like that. It strikes me as just another of the masks he wears.

Damn, DF, at some point you must take people at their word, especially if they are working for the State Department. What does this guy have to do to make you trust him? Convert to Christianity?

Get real, my man. He's a Sufi. He's one of the good guys.

re: #22 NJDhockeyfan

You really trust this guy?

I don't trust anybody except my family and a handful of friends .

I don't distrust him more than the average, if that makes sense.

re: #28 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't distrust him more than the average, if that makes sense.

Exactly

re: #28 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't distrust him more than the average, if that makes sense.

I'd say I trust him more than most politicians. He's at least been more consistent...

re: #24 SanFranciscoZionist

To clarify, the person quoted as saying that is Grand Ayatollah Naser Makarem Shirazi, not Imam Rauf.

And I'm reasonably sure that Rauf could set himself on fire in the middle of Teheran and not change anyone in the Iranian mullah-ocracy's stance on the Shoah.

Good. It's nice to see that he's determined to build and not to let Crazy Pam and her mental midgets intimidate him, to say nothing of the fanatics in AQ.

re: #4 Walter L. Newton

Let's send him to Iran and straighten this out...

"The Holocaust is nothing but superstition, but Zionists say that people of the world should be forced to accept this," he was quoted as saying by the state news agency IRNA.

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

Well done! Stupid is as stupid does. Nice paintbrush you got there, Walter. Go crawl in a hole, Walter.

re: #12 Dark_Falcon

I've criticized other Americans about wrapping themselves in the flag when I'm unsure of their sincerity. I just don't trust this guy. I support his rights against Crazy Pam's attacks, but he makes me suspicious.

I don't believe you're speaking from a rational place in these matters

re: #33 austin_blue

Well done! Stupid is as stupid does. Nice paintbrush you got there, Walter. Go crawl in a hole, Walter.

Walter, ya know, it's Smokey, so his toe slipped over the line a little, big deal. It's just a game, man.

re: #4 Walter L. Newton

You're using the Daily Fail as a reliable source? That's no better than using the Huffington Post.

re: #24 SanFranciscoZionist

To clarify, the person quoted as saying that is Grand Ayatollah Naser Makarem Shirazi, not Imam Rauf.

I know that. And I was complimenting Imam Rauf and his diplomatic skills and suggesting that maybe he could influence that kind of Holocaust denial that comes out of the middle east... and I was linking to a recent example of that kind of denial.

All I notice up thread is people slamming me for making this suggestion.

What the fuck is the problem?

Daniel Pipes has a weird piece in the JPost, where he seems to be trying to have it both ways with the Geller and Spencer show--at least everyone is taking Islamists seriously, but do they hafta be so anti-Muslim when they're doing it?

Not a great article.

Also, Shmuley Boteach is 'taking on' Christopher Hitchens.

Shmuley Boteach just makes me tired, sometimes.

And Walter's favorite guy, Ray Hanania, is being determinedly optimistic about the peace process.

re: #33 austin_blue

Well done! Stupid is as stupid does. Nice paintbrush you got there, Walter. Go crawl in a hole, Walter.

Er... fuck you seems appropriate right now see my... re: #37 Walter L. Newton

I know that. And I was complimenting Imam Rauf and his diplomatic skills and suggesting that maybe he could influence that kind of Holocaust denial that comes out of the middle east... and I was linking to a recent example of that kind of denial.

All I notice up thread is people slamming me for making this suggestion.

What the fuck is the problem?

re: #36 Lidane

You're using the Daily Fail as a reliable source? That's no better than using the Huffington Post.

HuffPo is more anti-Semitic as is a lot of other lefty blogs.

re: #35 WindUpBird

Walter, ya know, it's Smokey, so his toe slipped over the line a little, big deal. It's just a game, man.

What the fuck is your problem... as I said in re: #37 Walter L. Newton

re: #37 Walter L. Newton

I know that. And I was complimenting Imam Rauf and his diplomatic skills and suggesting that maybe he could influence that kind of Holocaust denial that comes out of the middle east... and I was linking to a recent example of that kind of denial.

All I notice up thread is people slamming me for making this suggestion.

What the fuck is the problem?

re: #21 WindUpBird

Okay, so here's part one of my Burning Man write up

It took a while to write, yeep *_*

Yeah! What a great experience. Thanks for sharing.

I'm there I hope next year.

re: #35 WindUpBird

Walter, ya know, it's Smokey, so his toe slipped over the line a little, big deal. It's just a game, man.

Don't care. It's a Sufi sect that wants to build the Community Center out of sight of Ground Zero. These are the moderate, secular Muslims that represent the vast majority of Muslims in this country. We should be *begging* them to build there.

re: #37 Walter L. Newton

I know that. And I was complimenting Imam Rauf and his diplomatic skills and suggesting that maybe he could influence that kind of Holocaust denial that comes out of the middle east... and I was linking to a recent example of that kind of denial.

All I notice up thread is people slamming me for making this suggestion.

What the fuck is the problem?

Since you linked the piece, I guessed you know that, but it was not clear to the casual reader, so I clarified.

I seriously doubt Rauf has any influence with the Grand Ayatollah or his buddies. It's a bit like saying that because a diplomat has done well in Costa Rica or Mexico, we should send him to Cuba to make some real bones.

re: #19 elbruce

What would it take for him to gain your trust?

He likely can't. I don't normally change my mind once I've decided someone is not to be trusted. I can't fully explain it rationally.

re: #40 NJDhockeyfan

HuffPo is more anti-Semitic as is a lot of other lefty blogs.

There seems to be some confusion here. I was implying that Imam Rauf's diplomatic skills may be of use in combating the sort of Holocaust denial that comes out of the middle east. What is the problem with that?

re: #38 SanFranciscoZionist

Daniel Pipes has a weird piece in the JPost, where he seems to be trying to have it both ways with the Geller and Spencer show--at least everyone is taking Islamists seriously, but do they hafta be so anti-Muslim when they're doing it?

Not a great article.

Also, Shmuley Boteach is 'taking on' Christopher Hitchens.

Shmuley Boteach just makes me tired, sometimes.

And Walter's favorite guy, Ray Hanania, is being determinedly optimistic about the peace process.

No respect for Pipes. NADA

re: #40 NJDhockeyfan

HuffPo is more anti-Semitic as is a lot of other lefty blogs.

The Mail is not exactly a bastion of pro-Jewish sentiment.

re: #22 NJDhockeyfan

You really trust this guy?

I don't trust anybody except my family and a handful of friends .

Must suck to be you.

But right now Imam Rauf's my favorite Muslim (after Aasif Manvi). He seems like the best hope we've got going. Progress means betting on the best option going, and if a better one shows up, start betting on that.

re: #46 Walter L. Newton

There seems to be some confusion here. I was implying that Imam Rauf's diplomatic skills may be of use in combating the sort of Holocaust denial that comes out of the middle east. What is the problem with that?

If he could do that it would be wonderful. That's a huge task though.

re: #46 Walter L. Newton

There seems to be some confusion here. I was implying that Imam Rauf's diplomatic skills may be of use in combating the sort of Holocaust denial that comes out of the middle east. What is the problem with that?

The Middle East, possibly. Iran, highly fucking dubious.

re: #39 Walter L. Newton

Er... fuck you seems appropriate right now see my... re: #37 Walter L. Newton

Then why the second post that plays both sides against the middle?

I'm glad that he is not backing down, and even gladder that he can still be diplomatic in the face of all this insanity.

Bravo.

re: #44 SanFranciscoZionist

Since you linked the piece, I guessed you know that, but it was not clear to the casual reader, so I clarified.

I seriously doubt Rauf has any influence with the Grand Ayatollah or his buddies. It's a bit like saying that because a diplomat has done well in Costa Rica or Mexico, we should send him to Cuba to make some real bones.

Walter did his best again, and partially succeeded at the thread jack, vis a vis changing the subject, moving the goalposts, what ever.

re: #45 Dark_Falcon

He likely can't. I don't normally change my mind once I've decided someone is not to be trusted. I can't fully explain it rationally.

And THAT is the problem.

re: #44 SanFranciscoZionist

Since you linked the piece, I guessed you know that, but it was not clear to the casual reader, so I clarified.

I seriously doubt Rauf has any influence with the Grand Ayatollah or his buddies. It's a bit like saying that because a diplomat has done well in Costa Rica or Mexico, we should send him to Cuba to make some real bones.

You know... what's your headache? I wasn't laying out some grand plan to solve all the middle eastern political and diplomatic problems in some one fell swoop... I read the thread's main article, was impressed with his diplomatic rhetoric, and was simply making a vague suggestion that it's this sort of person that could be possibly be effective in combatting the Holocaust denial that comes out of the middle east, places like Iran.

Sheeessshhh... because I suggest that, I get jumped on? I wonder what would happen if I decided to disagree on something about Rauf?

re: #37 Walter L. Newton

I know that. And I was complimenting Imam Rauf and his diplomatic skills and suggesting that maybe he could influence that kind of Holocaust denial that comes out of the middle east... and I was linking to a recent example of that kind of denial.

All I notice up thread is people slamming me for making this suggestion.

What the fuck is the problem?

Wow! I remember last week you were arguing the whole "mission accomplished" issue. It is not a quote!!
Then you post something that appears to be a quote by the Imam..."he said"
No clarification that the statement was made by someone else. And you ask wtf is the problem?

re: #37 Walter L. Newton

I know that. And I was complimenting Imam Rauf and his diplomatic skills and suggesting that maybe he could influence that kind of Holocaust denial that comes out of the middle east... and I was linking to a recent example of that kind of denial.

That's how I took it. But we can't send him to Iran for the same reason that we can't send him to Cuba: we simply can't send people to a country where we don't have any diplomatic relations. Rauf has advocated opening up relations with Iran, and I bet he'd love to do a pro-America speaking tour there, if it were possible.

re: #55 Stanley Sea

And THAT is the problem.

It is what it is. I'm not entirely rational. At least I admit it and don't lie about it.

re: #40 NJDhockeyfan

The point is, they both suck as any kind of news source. The Daily Fail isn't fit to line a bird cage, and HuffPo is so full of pseudo-science and other garbage that it renders any information from there useless.

re: #45 Dark_Falcon

He likely can't. I don't normally change my mind once I've decided someone is not to be trusted. I can't fully explain it rationally.

Maybe you should take some time and reflect on why you feel the way that you do. Until then, your opinion on this matter is of no merit whatsoever

re: #59 Dark_Falcon

It is what it is. I'm not entirely rational. At least I admit it and don't lie about it.

I appreciate you admitting that. But in doing so, you've also got to realize you're admitting that the problem exists in you, and not outside of you.

re: #52 austin_blue

Then why the second post that plays both sides against the middle?

My first post on this thread was suggesting that Rauf might be successful in combating the Holocaust denial that comes out of the middle east... my second post was telling you to fuck off. I wasn't playing any side against anything, I was trying to imply that this Imam could be a very influential ally.

I don't know what you are reading, or seeing, but have you checked the water level... it appears to be seeping into you brain.

good thing posted about the situ here in the us of a.

No, must thread jack to Iran.

Totally kills the discussion.

Just to put it in perspective, I'd much rather have Imam Rauf and his followers as neighbors than Terry Jones and his congregation.

In this page posted today by CuriousLurker, she made the following point in response to one of the comments.

The comment CL responded to had to do with wondering why US Muslims did not speak out after 9/11.

The emotions were horrible during that time... shock that such a thing happened to us (collectively, as Americans), fury & horror over the brutal slaughter of so many innocents, and additional shame & anger that Muslims would commit such an atrocity... that was topped off with feelings of trepidation, sadness, and even a little bit of resentment at the certain knowledge that our grief & anger would be considered suspect (at best), or dismissed as diabolically insincere (at worst) by a significant portion of our fellow Americans. IOW, we knew would not be allowed to mourn as Americans.

Here we see Imam Rauf speaking, and his words are dismissed as insincere.

I watched, last night, a NatGeo special featuring Saddam's interrogator. There was a fine line he had to walk, in order to gain trust and elicit information. It took him months. Perhaps Imam Rauf is trying to bridge two cultures, and finding it difficult to adequately satisfy either?

I think we need to take him at his word, and see how things play out.

re: #57 blueraven

Wow! I remember last week you were arguing the whole "mission accomplished" issue. It is not a quote!!
Then you post something that appears to be a quote by the Imam..."he said"
No clarification that the statement was made by someone else. And you ask wtf is the problem?

Show me where I type "he said" ?

re: #40 NJDhockeyfan

HuffPo is more anti-Semitic as is a lot of other lefty blogs.

haha you keep repeating this

lay down some more stuff about Kos from years past, you like to repeat that as well

Speaking of Iran...

OT: Here's an interesting NR piece:

Obama Gets Write-Offs Right By Larry Kudlow

It’s all midterm-election politics, but Obama’s last-minute idea for 100 percent tax write-offs for corporate investment is, in fact, a good idea.

He proposes a two-year window to incentivize businesses to bring forward their investments. From the standpoint of investment, it’s the right way to go. Perhaps Larry Summers now thinks tax cuts are the right way to go, too.

CEOs like Fred Smith of FedEx have argued for full cash expensing for many years, along with a big drop in the corporate tax rate itself. This is what Team Obama should have done in the first place: Slash business tax rates and accelerate investment-depreciation schedules.

Read the whole thing. After he he argues for the tax cut, he takes much of Obama's plan to task. Please read it and tell me what you think. This is an issue I'm rational about.

re: #56 Walter L. Newton

You know... what's your headache? I wasn't laying out some grand plan to solve all the middle eastern political and diplomatic problems in some one fell swoop... I read the thread's main article, was impressed with his diplomatic rhetoric, and was simply making a vague suggestion that it's this sort of person that could be possibly be effective in combatting the Holocaust denial that comes out of the middle east, places like Iran.

Sheeessshhh... because I suggest that, I get jumped on? I wonder what would happen if I decided to disagree on something about Rauf?

Oh, we would all jump on you and call you a racist, I'm sure. You poor, poor dear.

Walter, what's YOUR headache? I read your initial post to say that Rauf had made a Holocaust-denying statement, so when I clicked, I clarified. I also added that I don't think he's got a prayer at changing ingrained and officially sanctioned anti-Semitism in Iran. I will stand by that statement. Rauf seems to be a good speaker, but he's not magic. Why are you freaking out because I said your idea didn't seem viable?

re: #51 SanFranciscoZionist

The Middle East, possibly. Iran, highly fucking dubious.

Rauf has absolutely nothing to do with Iran. He is American, was born in Kuwait, his parents are Egyptian. The only "connection" here is that he is Muslim and works in the State Department (all Muslims have lots and lots in common). But of course we all know that Walter just wanted to like something about Islam and Holocaust denial, we just pretend we don't.

By the way, were you aware that the left criticizes Walmart because its CEO is conservative? True story, just check last thread.

re: #59 Dark_Falcon

It is what it is. I'm not entirely rational. At least I admit it and don't lie about it.

I need to point out I'm not saying Stanley isn't honest. I was not comparing her to me. She's always honest.

I'm gonna go spraypaint a model plane I got.

P-47D Thunderbolt from Monogram, "adopted" it from a model store for dirt cheap since it looked like it had been sitting there since it was molded in 1983 (according to the instruction manual.)

BBL

re: #64 Stanley Sea

good thing posted about the situ here in the us of a.

No, must thread jack to Iran.

Totally kills the discussion.

Iran Iran

Iran So Far Away

re: #68 WindUpBird

haha you keep repeating this

lay down some more stuff about Kos from years past, you like to repeat that as well

I can tell you are so proud of those disgusting cesspool blogs. As for Kos, screw him.

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

I need to point out I'm not saying Stanley isn't honest. I was not comparing her to me. She's always honest.

Stanley's a girl?!

/mmm, internet sexuality. :D

"She never even noticed the tears that began leaking down her cheeks"
Lord of Chaos. The Wheel of Time.
Good night, all.

re: #61 elbruce

Maybe you should take some time and reflect on why you feel the way that you do. Until then, your opinion on this matter is of no merit whatsoever

In fairness, I wish I was always 100% rational, but none of us are. Look how long it took to swing this blog on AGW, one side was rational for over a year before opinions changed. I was a major critic of Bush a few years ago, and still am, but some of it was not rational in hindsight.

re: #66 reine.de.tout

Thanks for posting back to that page I missed. Much.

Ok...

So I don't have to KEEP repeating myself, and to clear up anything that anyone THOUGHT I was saying I will clarify one more time.

1) I read the blog article.
2) I was impressed with this Imams diplomatic skills, his rhetoric I read.
3) I linked to an article about Holocaust denial coming out of Iran.
4) I suggested, realistically or not, that "Let's send him to Iran and straighten this out..."

It was meant as a hat tip, what ever you want to call it, to the Imam.

re: #67 Walter L. Newton

Show me where I type "he said" ?

You didn't, the quote you pulled did, and my first thought was "Rauf said WHUT?" So I clicked, and it was just some freaking ayatollah again. So I posted that it was just some freaking ayatollah again.

re: #41 Walter L. Newton

What the fuck is your problem... as I said in re: #37 Walter L. Newton

re: #37 Walter L. Newton

Everyone misunderstood what you posted.

re: #80 Stanley Sea

Thanks for posting back to that page I missed. Much.

It was a good page.

re: #74 laZardo

I'm gonna go spraypaint a model plane I got.

P-47D Thunderbolt from Monogram, "adopted" it from a model store for dirt cheap since it looked like it had been sitting there since it was molded in 1983 (according to the instruction manual.)

BBL

Primer coat first?

re: #83 b_sharp

Everyone misunderstood what you posted.

I realize that... and I have tried to clarify what I meant a number of times now, but I am still being accused of trying to smear the Imam or something.

re: #45 Dark_Falcon

He likely can't. I don't normally change my mind once I've decided someone is not to be trusted. I can't fully explain it rationally.

The inability to change your opinion based on new information isn't healthy.

re: #75 WindUpBird

Iran Iran

Iran So Far Away

[Video]

"I know you say there's no gays in Iran, but you're in New York now, baby!"

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

Totally didn't take it that way D_F. You are a good guy. But in this case, I beg you to think longer. All I can ask, friend.

re: #82 SanFranciscoZionist

You didn't, the quote you pulled did, and my first thought was "Rauf said WHUT?" So I clicked, and it was just some freaking ayatollah again. So I posted that it was just some freaking ayatollah again.

I didn't ask you... Blueraven said I type "he said" I want to know where I typed that?

re: #77 laZardo

Stanley's a girl?!

/mmm, internet sexuality. :D

lol

girl parts. girl brains. girl sensibilities.

re: #90 Walter L. Newton

I didn't ask you... Blueraven said I type "he said" I want to know where I typed that?

Jesus wept.

re: #76 NJDhockeyfan

I can tell you are so proud of those disgusting cesspool blogs. As for Kos, screw him.

Proud of someone else's blog? How the hell does that work? The only blog I'm proud of is my own, dude, because it's attached to my art, which pays my rent and puts gas in my GTI

I read Kos about once a month, it's not my scene, I don't have an account, it bores the hell out of me, and Huffpo I sorta treat like a tabloid, it's good for gauging where the push is in politics, where the zeitgeist is. It's full of quackery and only useful as an aggregate to other sources, like drudge

But you seem more invested in hating a blogger for one comment than anyone I've ever heard of, have fun with that

Like a football game, root root for your side, root root against the other side, don't look too closely at motivations or examine anything or think critically, that's complicated and awkward, much easier to rage

re: #86 Walter L. Newton

I realize that... and I have tried to clarify what I meant a number of times now, but I am still being accused of trying to smear the Imam or something.

No you are not Walter. Instead of sniping at SFZ, for clarifying you should have just copped a "my bad" and let it go. But that seems impossible for you. Anyway not going to argue over something so trivial.

Have a good night all.

re: #88 SanFranciscoZionist

"I know you say there's no gays in Iran, but you're in New York now, baby!"

heeheehee :D

re: #75 WindUpBird

Iran Iran

Iran So Far Away

[Video]

Better version:

re: #65 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Just to put it in perspective, I'd much rather have Imam Rauf and his followers as neighbors than Terry Jones and his congregation.

Yeah, this. Imam Rauf would be much more articulate and better at conversation. Terry Jones and his idiots would make my IQ drop and my blood pressure rise.

re: #93 WindUpBird

Proud of someone else's blog? How the hell does that work? The only blog I'm proud of is my own, dude, because it's attached to my art, which pays my rent and puts gas in my GTI

I read Kos about once a month, it's not my scene, I don't have an account, it bores the hell out of me, and Huffpo I sorta treat like a tabloid, it's good for gauging where the push is in politics, where the zeitgeist is. It's full of quackery and only useful as an aggregate to other sources, like drudge

But you seem more invested in hating a blogger for one comment than anyone I've ever heard of, have fun with that

Like a football game, root root for your side, root root against the other side, don't look too closely at motivations or examine anything or think critically, that's complicated and awkward, much easier to rage

Sorry, I mistaken you for someone who loves them blogs and finds any excuse for their vile comments. My bad.

re: #86 Walter L. Newton

I realize that... and I have tried to clarify what I meant a number of times now, but I am still being accused of trying to smear the Imam or something.

I posted that before I saw your explanations.

We seem to be pretty knee-jerky here lately.

I just read Rauf: it was very well written, very powerful.

Pointing out how the Christian president and Jewish Mayor supported the project and how it was received in his travels does not seem contrived.

I can't wait to read the response to his OpEd.

re: #100 BigPapa

I just read Rauf: it was very well written, very powerful.

Pointing out how the Christian president and Jewish Mayor supported the project and how it was received in his travels does not seem contrived.

I can't wait to read the response to his OpEd.

I shudder at the thought myself, nutjobs.

re: #100 BigPapa

I just read Rauf: it was very well written, very powerful.

Pointing out how the Christian president and Jewish Mayor supported the project and how it was received in his travels does not seem contrived.

I can't wait to read the response to his OpEd.

That to me was very very powerful.

(I hope they don't allow comments, although they will, and they will be ugly)

re: #98 NJDhockeyfan

Sorry, I mistaken you for someone who loves them blogs and finds any excuse for their vile comments. My bad.

That ain't nice. Downding.

re: #99 b_sharp

I posted that before I saw your explanations.

We seem to be pretty knee-jerky here lately.

I wasn't meaning to be knee-jerky, and I'm sorry... I am on the side of this Imam Rauf, I have no problem with the idea of the community center, mosque, whatever it's being called this week, and I was trying to point out what I perceived as a strength of his, in regards to that sort of Holocaust denial rhetoric coming out of the middle east.

I was not trying to imply Rauf was making denial statement, I NEVER used the words "he said" in quotes or out of quotes (like Blueraven claimed)... and every other comment other than my first one was in an effort to explain myself, since it appeared I didn't make a clear statement to start with.

Yes, I was a bit surprised at the reaction, and I may have knee-jerked... like I say... sorry.

re: #100 BigPapa

I just read Rauf: it was very well written, very powerful.

Pointing out how the Christian president and Jewish Mayor supported the project and how it was received in his travels does not seem contrived.

I can't wait to read the response to his OpEd.

Quick Synopsis to the rebuttal from his detractors: "MUSLIM BAD! HALLOWED GROUND! GRRR! RAGE BONERS!!! p.s. Support the cause and buy my book/gold/hybrid seeds"

re: #59 Dark_Falcon

It is what it is. I'm not entirely rational. At least I admit it and don't lie about it.

But you see the catch-22 here, right? The horrible stuff uttered by the spokesmen of Hamas, the Mullahs, and so on are treated as completely sincere statements that reflect what they truly believe, assertions without any political calculation whatsoever; the nice things said by leaders of the Muslim community say are to be regarded with distrust. This way, it will be pretty hard to earn your trust.

re: #59 Dark_Falcon

It is what it is. I'm not entirely rational. At least I admit it and don't lie about it.

I do want to say, from what I've seen of you so far (and remember, you and I almost always disagree) I do think you can get past it. Trust isn't a binary thing. What are you trusting him with? Babysitting your kids? The keys to your house? Talking America up to Muslims in New York and in the Middle East?

You don't have to let the guy marry your sister or whatever. But when we ask "where are the moderate Muslims?" unless you can think of a better one, I'm going to back this guy. He seems like a good guy.

And yeah, when he's in Saudi Arabia giving a speech to them about us, he isn't going to say the same things as when he's in New York talking to us about them. Building bridges means getting your feet in the river. The fact that he gets almost as much shit from assholes the Middle East as he does from assholes in America suggests to me that he's probably got the right idea.

re: #98 NJDhockeyfan

Sorry, I mistaken you for someone who loves them blogs and finds any excuse for their vile comments. My bad.

Yes, I talk about kos constantly, I want to have his babies, mm mm mpreg

re: #3 Dark_Falcon

re: #12 Dark_Falcon

Man, a lot of times I agree with you and dig what you're saying, but not this. Imam Rauf is an American citizen, same as you or I; there is and should not be a "litmus test" to see who is a "good" or "acceptable" American. I read that whole op-ed and I don't see where he's "wrapping himself in the American flag" any more than anyone else these days in the political arena in this country (not by his choice, I'm sure, but a necessity due to the anti-Park51 bigots turning what is a local issue into a national political football).

In fact, I think he laid out his case for Cordoba House/Park51 quite well...I think it would do you well to read through it forwards, backwards, and sideways to absorb what he has laid out, then think about it long and hard. Frankly, I don't see how Rauf could be any more "moderate".

Sometimes, prejudices and preconceptions are hard to lay down...

re: #105 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Quick Synopsis to the rebuttal from his detractors: "MUSLIM BAD! HALLOWED GROUND! GRRR! RAGE BONERS!!! p.s. Support the cause and buy my book/gold/hybrid seeds"

Golden Hybrid Seeds!

re: #107 elbruce

I do want to say, from what I've seen of you so far (and remember, you and I almost always disagree) I do think you can get past it. Trust isn't a binary thing. What are you trusting him with? Babysitting your kids? The keys to your house? Talking America up to Muslims in New York and in the Middle East?

You don't have to let the guy marry your sister or whatever. But when we ask "where are the moderate Muslims?" unless you can think of a better one, I'm going to back this guy. He seems like a good guy.

And yeah, when he's in Saudi Arabia giving a speech to them about us, he isn't going to say the same things as when he's in New York talking to us about them. Building bridges means getting your feet in the river. The fact that he gets almost as much shit from assholes the Middle East as he does from assholes in America suggests to me that he's probably got the right idea.

I tink some of it is that don't want to build bridges to the Saudis. I want to call them out as the duplicitous shits they are and give them the finger. I know why we can't do that, but I still want to (even though I never would do that).

re: #108 WindUpBird

Yes, I talk about kos constantly, I want to have his babies, mm mm mpreg

I apologized dude. I said you weren't one of those apologists for those sights. I'm having explanation failure tonight.

re: #37 Walter L. Newton

I know that. And I was complimenting Imam Rauf and his diplomatic skills and suggesting that maybe he could influence that kind of Holocaust denial that comes out of the middle east... and I was linking to a recent example of that kind of denial.

All I notice up thread is people slamming me for making this suggestion.

What the fuck is the problem?

The problem is that we know the Wahabbists and the Iranian mullahs would just as soon kill or otherwise "neutralize" someone like Imam Rauf if they could...he is 360 degrees from where they are.

re: #108 WindUpBird

Yes, I talk about kos constantly, I want to have his babies, mm mm mpreg

In terms of pure web site user/blog capability, I'd say Charles has just about caught up to Markos by now. All he needs now is his own polling company, LOL.

re: #106 Nimed

But you see the catch-22 here, right? The horrible stuff uttered by the spokesmen of Hamas, the Mullahs, and so on are treated as completely sincere statements that reflect what they truly believe, assertions without any political calculation whatsoever; the nice things said by leaders of the Muslim community say are to be regarded with distrust. This way, it will be pretty hard to earn your trust.

Above and beyond how DF feels about Rauf and his statements, this is an argument we tend to go around and around here. I see extreme statements by, say, Iranian leaders speaking in Farsi, pointed to as 'what they say', and what we should believe lest we be destroyed, but things people don't want to believe, or that might add nuance sometimes get dismissed as 'taqiyyah'.

It's not just a Muslim thing, although I think it does affect the way we see the Middle East. I know someone here was deeply shocked a while ago by what seemed to me like just another case of Netanyahu shooting his mouth off in some Likudnik's living room. We want these guys to have one, single, set of beliefs, with no conflicts, and I don't think hardly any of them do.

re: #113 talon_262

The problem is that we know the Wahabbists and the Iranian mullahs would just as soon kill or otherwise "neutralize" someone like Imam Rauf if they could...he is 360 degrees from where they are.

So... I get slammed for making a positive statement about Imam Rauf, and making a positive suggestion... bullshit... don't tell me it's raining...

re: #111 Dark_Falcon

I tink some of it is that don't want to build bridges to the Saudis. I want to call them out as the duplicitous shits they are and give them the finger. I know why we can't do that, but I still want to (even though I never would do that).

And that's perfectly reasonable, but Rauf is working with American administrations that have chosen a different path for all the cruddy reasons we know about. I don't necessarily see his work as a shining beacon of hope, but I think he does it for good reasons.

re: #116 Walter L. Newton

So... I get slammed for making a positive statement about Imam Rauf, and making a positive suggestion... bullshit... don't tell me it's raining...

Failing to make link here.

re: #118 SanFranciscoZionist

Failing to make link here.

You would.

re: #111 Dark_Falcon

I tink some of it is that don't want to build bridges to the Saudis. I want to call them out as the duplicitous shits they are and give them the finger. I know why we can't do that, but I still want to (even though I never would do that).

I get it. There's a lot of fucked up shit going on over there. But none of that fucked up shit is representative of all of Islam. In order to pull apart the threads of what's cool and what's still fucked up, we need to break this "Middle-East vs. West" narrative that the "holy war" assholes on both sides are trying to force on everybody. That's the level that Imam Rauf's trying to deal with - just trying to convince people over there that American ideals such as democracy and equality can be consistent with Islam; or rather, that there's a version of Islam that's consistent with democracy and equality. You don't have to be a psycho asshole. Once that's done, a lot of more specific discussions can follow.

Besides, we're already in bed with the Sauds whether Rauf's in the game or not. Always have been. He isn't exactly the driving force on close Saudi-U.S. relations. That's always been far more about politics and economics than religion.

re: #116 Walter L. Newton

So... I get slammed for making a positive statement about Imam Rauf, and making a positive suggestion... bullshit... don't tell me it's raining...

I'm not slamming you at all...I get what you're saying (as I'm trying to catch up in the thread).

re: #115 SanFranciscoZionist

Above and beyond how DF feels about Rauf and his statements, this is an argument we tend to go around and around here. I see extreme statements by, say, Iranian leaders speaking in Farsi, pointed to as 'what they say', and what we should believe lest we be destroyed, but things people don't want to believe, or that might add nuance sometimes get dismissed as 'taqiyyah'.

It's not just a Muslim thing, although I think it does affect the way we see the Middle East. I know someone here was deeply shocked a while ago by what seemed to me like just another case of Netanyahu shooting his mouth off in some Likudnik's living room. We want these guys to have one, single, set of beliefs, with no conflicts, and I don't think hardly any of them do.

Or, they have to carefully tailor their remarks to a particular audience, in order to try to bring about some sort of agreement, or at least tolerance, from very diverse sets of needs or wants. It's not an easy thing to do.

re: #117 SanFranciscoZionist

And that's perfectly reasonable, but Rauf is working with American administrations that have chosen a different path for all the cruddy reasons we know about. I don't necessarily see his work as a shining beacon of hope, but I think he does it for good reasons.

That I can agree with. I still don't trust him, but I'll try to view his efforts objectively. Is that acceptable to all concerned?

From those who recognize our rights, from grassroots organizers to heads of state, I sense a global desire to build on this positive momentum and to be part of a global movement to heal relations and bring peace. This is an opportunity we must grasp.

I therefore call upon all Americans to rise to this challenge. Let us commemorate the anniversary of 9/11 by pausing to reflect and meditate and tone down the vitriol and rhetoric that serves only to strengthen the radicals and weaken our friends’ belief in our values.

That's very powerful as well. I'm very impressed by this OpEd.

Awaiting Pam's response.

re: #123 Dark_Falcon

That I can agree with. I still don't trust him, but I'll try to view his efforts objectively. Is that acceptable to all concerned?

Sure is to me. You don't need to trust him, I just think it's worth examining your distrust for him. I certainly don't have any kind of perfect trust in this guy, but so far he hasn't pissed me off.

re: #120 elbruce

I get it. There's a lot of fucked up shit going on over there. But none of that fucked up shit is representative of all of Islam. In order to pull apart the threads of what's cool and what's still fucked up, we need to break this "Middle-East vs. West" narrative that the "holy war" assholes on both sides are trying to force on everybody. That's the level that Imam Rauf's trying to deal with - just trying to convince people over there that American ideals such as democracy and equality can be consistent with Islam; or rather, that there's a version of Islam that's consistent with democracy and equality. You don't have to be a psycho asshole. Once that's done, a lot of more specific discussions can follow.

Besides, we're already in bed with the Sauds whether Rauf's in the game or not. Always have been. He isn't exactly the driving force on close Saudi-U.S. relations. That's always been far more about politics and economics than religion.

I never said it was.

re: #124 BigPapa

From those who recognize our rights, from grassroots organizers to heads of state, I sense a global desire to build on this positive momentum and to be part of a global movement to heal relations and bring peace. This is an opportunity we must grasp.

I therefore call upon all Americans to rise to this challenge. Let us commemorate the anniversary of 9/11 by pausing to reflect and meditate and tone down the vitriol and rhetoric that serves only to strengthen the radicals and weaken our friends’ belief in our values.

That's very powerful as well. I'm very impressed by this OpEd.

Awaiting Pam's response.

He'slyinghe'saterrorist,wehateshimwehateshimforever.
Anyonewhodisagreeswithmeisadhimmitraitor.

You're expecting something different?

re: #124 BigPapa

From those who recognize our rights, from grassroots organizers to heads of state, I sense a global desire to build on this positive momentum and to be part of a global movement to heal relations and bring peace. This is an opportunity we must grasp.

I therefore call upon all Americans to rise to this challenge. Let us commemorate the anniversary of 9/11 by pausing to reflect and meditate and tone down the vitriol and rhetoric that serves only to strengthen the radicals and weaken our friends’ belief in our values.

That's very powerful as well. I'm very impressed by this OpEd.

Awaiting Pam's response.

Well it's the other guy that she'll diminish by calling him a waiter. What will be her put down for Rauf? Don't want to know.

re: #116 Walter L. Newton

So... I get slammed for making a positive statement about Imam Rauf, and making a positive suggestion... bullshit... don't tell me it's raining...

Just in case you missed it before, I think your comments in this thread have been Just fine.

Jumping in sight-unseen and expecting to see Rauf's reaction to some random Ayatollah's bullshit may have been jarring for some, but it didn't really bother me. I just pointed out that the real problem is that we can't legally send Rauf there to respond to it, although it would be really useful if we could.

You can stop whining about it now.. You (kinda) like Rauf, I (kinda) like Rauf, we're totally sympatico here.

And everybody else, quit picking on Walter here. He was just demonstrating some of the challenges in the Islamic world that leaders like Rauf could be useful in responding to.

re: #128 Stanley Sea

Well it's the other guy that she'll diminish by calling him a waiter. What will be her put down for Rauf? Don't want to know.

Oh yeah. Gamal the Waiter.

I keep wondering if that's some sort of lingering aftermath of Joe the Plumber.

re: #127 SanFranciscoZionist

He'slyinghe'saterrorist,wehateshimwehateshimforeve r.
Anyonewhodisagreeswithmeisadhimmitraitor.

You're expecting something different?

That's exactly it. I want here on record with the crazy shit. Crazier the better.

re: #117 SanFranciscoZionist

And that's perfectly reasonable, but Rauf is working with American administrations that have chosen a different path for all the cruddy reasons we know about. I don't necessarily see his work as a shining beacon of hope, but I think he does it for good reasons.

re: #123 Dark_Falcon

That I can agree with. I still don't trust him, but I'll try to view his efforts objectively. Is that acceptable to all concerned?

re: #125 SanFranciscoZionist

Sure is to me. You don't need to trust him, I just think it's worth examining your distrust for him. I certainly don't have any kind of perfect trust in this guy, but so far he hasn't pissed me off.

That's all we can really do with anything and come up with an acceptable position...take the facts and weigh them logically and objectively. While I'm sure that I wouldn't agree with everything Imam Rauf has said or done, the evidence points to him being a good man, serving his faith and his congregation the best way he knows how.

re: #131 BigPapa

That's exactly it. I want here on record with the crazy shit. Crazier the better.

I'm at the point where I've seen about enough of that :p Its not like they're gonna get any better if I get all pisst about it >>

re: #129 elbruce

Just in case you missed it before, I think your comments in this thread have been Just fine.

Jumping in sight-unseen and expecting to see Rauf's reaction to some random Ayatollah's bullshit may have been jarring for some, but it didn't really bother me. I just pointed out that the real problem is that we can't legally send Rauf there to respond to it, although it would be really useful if we could.

You can stop whining about it now.. You (kinda) like Rauf, I (kinda) like Rauf, we're totally sympatico here.

And everybody else, quit picking on Walter here. He was just demonstrating some of the challenges in the Islamic world that leaders like Rauf could be useful in responding to.

Oh for fucking christs sake... now don't start singing Kumbaya... I'm gonna hurl.

re: #127 SanFranciscoZionist

He'slyinghe'saterrorist,wehateshimwehateshimforeve r.
Anyonewhodisagreeswithmeisadhimmitraitor.

You're expecting something different?

Don't forget "judenrat" for Bloomberg...

///

re: #81 Walter L. Newton

Ok...

So I don't have to KEEP repeating myself, and to clear up anything that anyone THOUGHT I was saying I will clarify one more time.

1) I read the blog article.
2) I was impressed with this Imams diplomatic skills, his rhetoric I read.
3) I linked to an article about Holocaust denial coming out of Iran.
4) I suggested, realistically or not, that "Let's send him to Iran and straighten this out..."

It was meant as a hat tip, what ever you want to call it, to the Imam.

Bullshit. You got nailed and both SFZ and I called you on it.

My mind is still stuck in that place where everyone is calling for a "moderate Muslim"

Here he appears to be, out in front.

And it's not enough. That is the point I'm dwelling on. The falseness of it all.

re: #134 Walter L. Newton

All new people need to learn that they can't win >>

re: #100 BigPapa

I just read Rauf: it was very well written, very powerful.

Pointing out how the Christian president and Jewish Mayor supported the project and how it was received in his travels does not seem contrived.

I can't wait to read the response to his OpEd.

Here are some from CNN:

ef78
If the build this mosque in ground zero, we have all the right to build a church on the Mecca or in the Dome of the Rock.

Landser
Islamofascists are intolerant.

jman33
It amazes me how these liberals claim to be so "tolerant" and at the same time spew their hate mongering towards Christianity.I'm atheist and this $100 million center has no place near ground zero. I guess people forgot that Islamic extremists hijacked planes and crashed them into the twin towers an... more
It amazes me how these liberals claim to be so "tolerant" and at the same time spew their hate mongering towards Christianity.

I'm atheist and this $100 million center has no place near ground zero. I guess people forgot that Islamic extremists hijacked planes and crashed them into the twin towers and the Pentagon, killing around 3,000 people in the name of Islam. Where was the tolerance there?

re: #137 Stanley Sea

or the mental blocks associated. We're dealing with some pretty broken people here.

re: #136 austin_blue

Bullshit. You got nailed and both SFZ and I called you on it.

Called me on what? Do you even have any idea what you are talking about, or you just all wound up?

Tell me what I was called on?

re: #135 talon_262

Don't forget "judenrat" for Bloomberg...

///

Judenrat, kapo; she's not educated enough to try out 'moser', which, BTW, shows up at anti-Semitic sites with language startlingly similar to that used ot describe 'taqiyya'.

re: #138 windsagio

All new people need to learn that they can't win >>

I starting to totally miss what ever point you are trying to make.

re: #139 NJDhockeyfan

Here are some from CNN:

Landser
Islamofascists are intolerant.

Intolerant bigots and xenophobes are intolerant

/irony...lost on the stupid

re: #140 windsagio

or the mental blocks associated. We're dealing with some pretty broken people here.

I posted in another thread about a group I used to be involved with. Even they are in the throws of anti-Islam in their weird sort of way. Find my past comments from this eve. It sucks.

And good night Lizards, time for bed. Walter, you've got all night to explain the unexplainable. Good night and good luck. You have been hoisted on your own petard.

re: #143 Walter L. Newton

the point is that there's no point in trying to be nice, you don't like it :p

re: #142 SanFranciscoZionist

Judenrat, kapo; she's not educated enough to try out 'moser', which, BTW, shows up at anti-Semitic sites with language startlingly similar to that used ot describe 'taqiyya'.

How could she call Bloomberg a Judenrat, that doesn't even make sense. He's a single person. A Judenrat is a group of people, a council... that's stupid to start with. And Judenrat's were not always peopled with "turncoats" or the such, may of the members of Judenrat's were doing their bess to mitigate the effects of the Nazi's on fellow Jews. The head of the Warsaw Judenrat committed suicide when he finally couldn't come between the Nazi's and their final plans.

re: #147 windsagio

the point is that there's no point in trying to be nice, you don't like it :p

Bullshit I don't.

re: #149 Walter L. Newton

It makes you wanna hurl!

re: #148 Walter L. Newton

How could she call Bloomberg a Judenrat, that doesn't even make sense. He's a single person. A Judenrat is a group of people, a council... that's stupid to start with. And Judenrat's were not always peopled with "turncoats" or the such, may of the members of Judenrat's were doing their bess to mitigate the effects of the Nazi's on fellow Jews. The head of the Warsaw Judenrat committed suicide when he finally couldn't come between the Nazi's and their final plans.

She did already, a couple of weeks ago when Bloomberg issued a statement supporting Cordoba House/Park51 and Imam Rauf. Talked about here at length...

re: #115 SanFranciscoZionist

Above and beyond how DF feels about Rauf and his statements, this is an argument we tend to go around and around here. I see extreme statements by, say, Iranian leaders speaking in Farsi, pointed to as 'what they say', and what we should believe lest we be destroyed, but things people don't want to believe, or that might add nuance sometimes get dismissed as 'taqiyyah'.

It's not just a Muslim thing, although I think it does affect the way we see the Middle East. I know someone here was deeply shocked a while ago by what seemed to me like just another case of Netanyahu shooting his mouth off in some Likudnik's living room. We want these guys to have one, single, set of beliefs, with no conflicts, and I don't think hardly any of them do.

Hey, I think that's me you're talking about, right? That is, if this is what you mean.

Yeah, I completely agree with you. For some reason, it's very difficult for a lot of people to suppose that these guys might behave like most of our politicians, adapting their message to please the different audiences they address. This is especially weird IMO since, if you want to be just a bit cynical about it, it is also what most people do, at least to some degree, in their social interactions. But somehow people expect Middle-Easterners, Muslims or whatever to conduct themselves like honorary members of an alien species in this regard.

re: #148 Walter L. Newton

How could she call Bloomberg a Judenrat, that doesn't even make sense. He's a single person. A Judenrat is a group of people, a council... that's stupid to start with. And Judenrat's were not always peopled with "turncoats" or the such, may of the members of Judenrat's were doing their bess to mitigate the effects of the Nazi's on fellow Jews. The head of the Warsaw Judenrat committed suicide when he finally couldn't come between the Nazi's and their final plans.

I don't know how to say this...Pam's German grammar is even less of a strong suit with her than her German history.

I don't know how she can call Bloomberg a Judenrat, but Mark Williams already did.

re: #151 talon_262

She did already, a couple of weeks ago when Bloomberg issued a statement supporting Cordoba House/Park51 and Imam Rauf. Talked about here at length...

I'm not here 24 fucking hours a day. Excuse me for leaving such a insightful and informative comment.

I think it was Williams that came out with the Judenrat line.

re: #139 NJDhockeyfan

Here are some from CNN:

ef78
If the build this mosque in ground zero, we have all the right to build a church on the Mecca or in the Dome of the Rock.
It's not "in" Ground Zero, it's in commercial space two blocks away. It should be OK to build a church in Mecca (even though it is not allowed at present), but to build in the Dome of the Rock would destroy it, and that is not decent. Grow up and listen to Pam Geller less.

Landser
Islamofascists are intolerant.
True, but irrelevant. Whatever Imam Rauf is, he's not a Islamofascist.

jman33
It amazes me how these liberals claim to be so "tolerant" and at the same time spew their hate mongering towards Christianity.I'm atheist and this $100 million center has no place near ground zero. I guess people forgot that Islamic extremists hijacked planes and crashed them into the twin towers an... more
It amazes me how these liberals claim to be so "tolerant" and at the same time spew their hate mongering towards Christianity.

I'm atheist and this $100 million center has no place near ground zero. I guess people forgot that Islamic extremists hijacked planes and crashed them into the twin towers and the Pentagon, killing around 3,000 people in the name of Islam. Where was the tolerance there?

GAZE

MY commentary has been inserted.

re: #154 Walter L. Newton

I'm not here 24 fucking hours a day. Excuse me for leaving such a insightful and informative comment.

Wasn't trying to get on your case, just stating that that particular word had been thrown at Bloomberg already, although SFZ is right in saying that it was Mark Williams, not Pamz, who did it.

re: #153 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know how to say this...Pam's German grammar is even less of a strong suit with her than her German history.

I don't know how she can call Bloomberg a Judenrat, but Mark Williams already did.

Er... who is Mark Williams?

I know Judenrat. I spent a LOT of time deciding how I was going to truthfully portray Adam Czerniakow, the head of the Warsaw Judenrat in my play "A Field of Buttercups." When I was in Warsaw, I spoke to a number of experts, both in the Jewish community and professors at the University about this subject. While Adam is a secondary character in my play, his key role in a number of the plots points is very important, and I wanted to do him justice.

It's a difficult subject, for a lot of people, but I know Judenrat.

re: #157 talon_262

Wasn't trying to get on your case, just stating that that particular word had been thrown at Bloomberg already, although SFZ is right in saying that it was Mark Williams, not Pamz, who did it.

Walter is, of course, entirely correct about the grammatical and historical usage of the word...it's just that with Pam, it won't matter much.

re: #153 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know how to say this...Pam's German grammar is even less of a strong suit with her than her German history.

I don't know how she can call Bloomberg a Judenrat, but Mark Williams already did.

It's stupid, bigoted, and historically inaccurate. A Wingnut Trifecta.

re: #158 Walter L. Newton

Er... who is Mark Williams?

I know Judenrat. I spent a LOT of time deciding how I was going to truthfully portray Adam Czerniakow, the head of the Warsaw Judenrat in my play "A Field of Buttercups." When I was in Warsaw, I spoke to a number of experts, both in the Jewish community and professors at the University about this subject. While Adam is a secondary character in my play, his key role in a number of the plots points is very important, and I wanted to do him justice.

It's a difficult subject, for a lot of people, but I know Judenrat.

Mark Williams is some Tea Party yahoo who called Bloomberg a Judenrat for getting between him and Park51. That's why the term came up, people remembered it.

I think your understanding of the term and the people behind it is much more sophisticated than his. To put it mildly.

re: #159 SanFranciscoZionist

Walter is, of course, entirely correct about the grammatical and historical usage of the word...it's just that with Pam, it won't matter much.

Frankly, I'm surprised that Pamz still has enough brain cells left to be able to tie her shoelaces...

re: #162 talon_262

Frankly, I'm surprised that Pamz still has enough brain cells left to be able to tie her shoelaces...

May not be needed. They have those pretied elasticky slip-on things now.

Or Velcro.

cre: #156 Dark_Falcon

MY commentary has been inserted.

True, but irrelevant. Whatever Imam Rauf is, he's not a Islamofascist.

Sounds to me like you "trust" him more than you give yourself credit for.

re: #161 SanFranciscoZionist

Mark Williams is some Tea Party yahoo who called Bloomberg a Judenrat for getting between him and Park51. That's why the term came up, people remembered it.

I think your understanding of the term and the people behind it is much more sophisticated than his. To put it mildly.

Ok... now I remember him... the guy with the bigoted emails and such... Tea Party Express group.

I also had to deal with a üdischer Ordnungsdienst, a Jewish Ghetto Police officer. Once again, a very minor character in the story, but very important at a particular plot junction almost toward the end of the story.

There is very much mixed emotions on the Jewish Police, and the issue were not all black and white. Some were outright traitors to their people, but there is a lot of gray areas between the extremes.

People like Williams and Geller cheapen words when they misuse them the way they do, and do a terrible dishonor to the very people they are supposedly so concerned about.

re: #164 elbruce

c

Sounds to me like you "trust" him more than you give yourself credit for.

Just because I think he wears masks, doesn't mean I think he's in bed with the Islamists. There is no evidence to place that charge against him, and I don't make that charge unless it can be positively proven.

re: #161 SanFranciscoZionist

He actually got booted from the biggest tea party org for those bigoted emails he wrote. Some of them were clearly racist, and they gave him the gate for it.

re: #27 austin_blue

Damn, DF, at some point you must take people at their word, especially if they are working for the State Department. What does this guy have to do to make you trust him? Convert to Christianity?

Get real, my man. He's a Sufi. He's one of the good guys.

I would have thought that being hired by the State Department is all the proof you need that the guy is an anti-American radical.

re: #45 Dark_Falcon

He likely can't. I don't normally change my mind once I've decided someone is not to be trusted. I can't fully explain it rationally.

Do you enjoy being ruled by your emotions? I wouldn't, it seems like a weak and dishonorable way for a man to choose to live, and do not for a second pretend that it's not a choice.

You've accused Rauf before of wearing masks, and when I question you on it you just disappear to repeat the bullshit assertion again later. Your reasoning is incredibly dishonest, your evidence blatantly cherry picked, deceptive & riddled with deliberate omissions, and your motivation quite disgusting. You have a lot of growing up to do ... this is also a choice.

re: #168 barflytom

I would have thought that being hired by the State Department is all the proof you need that the guy is an anti-American radical.

ahaha I hope this was sarcasm

re: #123 Dark_Falcon

That I can agree with. I still don't trust him, but I'll try to view his efforts objectively. Is that acceptable to all concerned?

It doesn't matter whether we consider this acceptable or not. The only thing that matters is whether YOU find it acceptable.

I think much of the brouhaha that began with Walter's post #4 was because the phrase "he was quoted" appeared to refer to Imam Rauf, although it didn't.

Had those who got upset gone to the linked site, they would have seen that the Imam is not even involved in the interview there. Had Walter specified Shirazi rather than Rauf in his post, there would have been less contention.

re: #123 Dark_Falcon

...but I'll try to view his efforts objectively. Is that acceptable to all concerned?

Never asked for anything more.

re: #4 Walter L. Newton

Walter, one shouldn't have to be a rocket-surgeon to get what you were trying to say. But from the looks of this thread maybe so.

I'm not a rocket-surgeon.