Anti-Mosque Movement Directly Linked to Anti-Islam Prejudice

US News • Views: 4,179

A new Washington Post poll on Americans’ attitudes toward Islam strongly confirms what was already empirically obvious: Opposition to ‘mosque’ directly linked to anti-Islam sentiment, poll shows.

Here’s the rub: According to the internals sent my way, opposition to the “Ground Zero mosque” is overwhelmingly driven by those with an unfavorable view of Islam:

* Fifty-five percent of those who have favorable views of the religion say it should be built.

* Meanwhile, among those who have an unfavorable view of Islam, an overwhelming 87 percent say the project shouldn’t be built, with 74 percent strongly opposed.

It gets even clearer when you look at the numbers in another way. If you take the 66 percent overall who oppose the project, it turns out that two thirds of those people have generally unfavorable views of Islam, versus only one-third who view Islam favorably.

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102 comments
1 Kragar  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:01:56am

Not suprising.

2 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:02:18am

Also breaking: Sun rises in east, sets in west.

3 DaddyG  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:02:21am

Quantification. Because the obvious isn't always obvious enough™.

4 researchok  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:03:06am

That's like saying basketball players are tall.

5 Gus  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:04:18am

re: #3 DaddyG

Quantification. Because the obvious isn't always obvious enough™.

Obvious bigotry is obvious.

6 DaddyG  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:04:22am

Now the numbers are in perhaps it will change some minds? After all it worked so well with Global Warming deniers.

/if I really need it.

7 Kragar  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:04:26am

re: #4 researchok

That's like saying basketball players are tall.

Muggsy Bogues wants a word with you.

8 Political Atheist  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:05:55am

Or, two thirds of the opponents are hard core bigots by way of religion and ethnicity, 33% are just parroting their favorite wingnut pundit.

9 Gus  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:06:23am

OK I'm looking into my crystal ball. I foresee either a flounce or a great deal of mental genuflecting and dead thread trolling.

10 researchok  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:06:25am

re: #7 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Muggsy Bogues wants a word with you.

And what is he doing nowadays?
/

11 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:08:13am

Does 2+2=4? Even Glenn Beck will admit that.

Yeah, it makes me laugh every time.

12 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:08:34am

re: #10 researchok

And what is he doing nowadays?
/

Earning a helluva lot more money than I am. Props to him.

13 lostlakehiker  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:08:50am

The headline says "anti-Islam sentiment", and the post says "anti-Islam prejudice." I'd say it's perfectly possible that someone has anti-Islam sentiments as a consequence of studying the religion and its works, and as a consequence of learning through the news and through wide contact and reflection. That's not prejudice.

Things can go the other way too. There are Americans who convert to Islam, after all. They've given more weight to another side of Islam. But their conversion is not a result of anti-Western prejudice. Whatever their beliefs about Western culture, those beliefs are not ones arrived at in haste and ignorance. They're the result of a lifetime of learning and reflection.

Negative conclusions about belief systems are not necessarily prejudice. I've decided I don't believe in phlogiston, and I hold the theory in contempt. I'll even go so far as to say that those who do believe in it are not just wrong, but kind of batty.

That's not a prejudice. It's a result of knowing enough to make an informed judgment on the merits.

14 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:08:55am

re: #9 Gus 802

OK I'm looking into my crystal ball. I foresee either a flounce or a great deal of mental genuflecting and dead thread trolling.

Yeah. Its kind of pathetic after awhile.

15 Kragar  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:08:55am

re: #10 researchok

And what is he doing nowadays?
/

Retired after 14 years in the NBA, works in the front office for another team now.

16 researchok  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:09:38am

re: #12 MrSilverDragon

Earning a helluva lot more money than I am. Props to him.

Is he still involved in BBall in any way?

17 Gus  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:10:24am

re: #13 lostlakehiker

Ah, so this poll is inconclusive.

/

18 researchok  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:10:50am

re: #15 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Retired after 14 years in the NBA, works in the front office for another team now.

His is a great story.

19 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:11:41am

re: #16 researchok

Is he still involved in BBall in any way?

He works in the front office for the Charlotte Bobcats, and he's shown up on TV and in movies.

20 researchok  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:11:42am

re: #17 Gus 802

Ah, so this poll is inconclusive.

/

Was anyone really surprised at the results?

21 Charles Johnson  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:12:13am

re: #13 lostlakehiker

The VAST majority of the people who are opposed to the Cordoba House and the VAST majority of people who are prejudiced against Islam know almost nothing about Islam. It's absurd to claim that these people are anti-Islam because they're "informed." They're "informed" by a cottage industry of religious extremists and bigots.

I used the word "prejudice" very deliberately. It describes the phenomenon perfectly.

prejudice |ˈprejədəs|
noun

1 preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience : English prejudice against foreigners | anti-Jewish prejudices.

• dislike, hostility, or unjust behavior formed on such a basis : accusations of racial prejudice.

22 Charles Johnson  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:13:20am

And the ones who are the most prejudiced are the ones who yell the loudest when their prejudice is pointed out.

23 researchok  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:13:57am

re: #21 Charles

The VAST majority of the people who are opposed to the Cordoba House and the VAST majority of people who are prejudiced against Islam know almost nothing about Islam. It's absurd to claim that these people are anti-Islam because they're "informed." They're "informed" by a cottage industry of religious extremists and bigots.

I used the word "prejudice" very deliberately. It describes the phenomenon perfectly.

prejudice |ˈprejədəs|
noun

1 preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience : English prejudice against foreigners | anti-Jewish prejudices.

• dislike, hostility, or unjust behavior formed on such a basis : accusations of racial prejudice.

Like Jones, their understanding of Islam comes from You tube and the internet.

24 dragonfire1981  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:15:38am

Glenn Beck has a larger audience than I thought...

25 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:16:14am

re: #13 lostlakehiker

The headline says "anti-Islam sentiment", and the post says "anti-Islam prejudice." I'd say it's perfectly possible that someone has anti-Islam sentiments as a consequence of studying the religion and its works, and as a consequence of learning through the news and through wide contact and reflection. That's not prejudice.

Things can go the other way too. There are Americans who convert to Islam, after all. They've given more weight to another side of Islam. But their conversion is not a result of anti-Western prejudice. Whatever their beliefs about Western culture, those beliefs are not ones arrived at in haste and ignorance. They're the result of a lifetime of learning and reflection.

Negative conclusions about belief systems are not necessarily prejudice. I've decided I don't believe in phlogiston, and I hold the theory in contempt. I'll even go so far as to say that those who do believe in it are not just wrong, but kind of batty.

That's not a prejudice. It's a result of knowing enough to make an informed judgment on the merits.

Do you think those people protesting the mosque looked like they were informed in any way?

I mean they're informed about where to get a Wendy's Triple to shove in their holes, but that's really their only area of expertise

Oh yeah and screaming, they're pretty good at that

26 Four More Tears  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:17:12am

re: #25 WindUpBird

Curse you and your new profile pic!

i wanna go!

27 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:17:32am

re: #13 lostlakehiker

I fail to see how drawing negative conclusions about a particular religion (Islam is not for me) translates to anti-religious sentiments (Islam makes me feel creepy). The former suggests a level of personal reflection that enabled a conclusion, the latter just the opposite.

28 researchok  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:18:04am

re: #24 dragonfire1981

Glenn Beck has a larger audience than I thought...

That should come as no surprise.

Media/Internet 'education' are like diploma mills of of old- cheap, easy, fast and requires no subject knowledge.

29 RadicalModerate  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:18:43am

Speaking of bigots, the American Family Association's Bryan Fischer has stepped in it yet again.

Top Social Conservative Bryan Fischer: 'Handle Muslims Just Like We Handle The Neo-Nazis'

Bryan Fischer, the "Director of Issues Analysis" for the American Family Association, wrote a blog post yesterday that argues that "Germany is giving us a template on how we handle Muslims: just like we handle neo-Nazis," which amounts to German police carrying "out 30 predawn raids against the nation's largest neo-Nazi group two days ago."

In other words, he's wanting us to ban the Muslim religion outright and start rounding up its believers, because Germany did so with neo-Nazis (never mind the REASON that Germany specifically banned Nazi symbology....)

Oh, and Mr. Fischer - here lately in the US we haven't been "rounding up" the neo-nazis, we've been giving them a national stage to spread their hate.

30 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:20:42am

re: #26 JasonA

Curse you and your new profile pic!

i wanna go!

You have to go
'
you have to see it, it's so fucking fantastic and unhinged, everyone's ego is like in full bloom out there

31 Four More Tears  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:21:25am

re: #30 WindUpBird

You have to go
'
you have to see it, it's so fucking fantastic and unhinged, everyone's ego is like in full bloom out there

I hope you picked up all your trash...

32 avanti  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:21:25am

Marines 1, Pirates 0

In a pre-dawn raid on Thursday, US Marines boarded and seized control of the Antigua-Barbuda-flagged, German-owned vessel, M/V Magellan Star, from pirates who attacked and boarded the vessel early September 8,' the US Fifth Fleet said."


Pirates.

33 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:21:36am

re: #26 JasonA

Curse you and your new profile pic!

i wanna go!

If you decide you want to go, decide as soon as you can and start reading and preparing, it is a seriously harsh and unforgiving environment out there, lot of stuff to buy and remember

34 Mark Pennington  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:21:37am

Just what we need, the tabloids perpetuating this bullshit.
Currently on the shelves of your local Walgreen's:

Image: 25i0sp5.jpg

35 Political Atheist  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:22:01am

The level of "discourse" if we can call it that is falling fast. The topic above shows it and so does this incident from Los Angeles-
A cop shot a knife wielding attacker. According to the female witness reports "He was my angel he saved our lives". I heard that quote on the news. A "good" shoot in as much as you can have such a thing.

In the protest outside (3rd day in a row) that got violent enough to damage property we had instigators calling the police assassins and calling for a communist revolution.

All this despite the very grateful ladies!

36 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:22:06am

re: #31 JasonA

I hope you picked up all your trash...

We were squatting in the dust looking for pieces of EL wire about as big as a pencil lead, so yes :D

37 Four More Tears  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:22:11am

re: #34 beekiller

Just what we need, the tabloids perpetuating this bullshit.
Currently on the shelves of your local Walgreen's:

Image: 25i0sp5.jpg

They've been doing that for weeks.

38 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:22:24am

re: #36 WindUpBird

(nothing like frantic costume repairs in the middle of the desert)

39 RogueOne  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:22:26am

Not sure why but whenever a thread gets past 500 posts or so it locks up my laptop. I'll read any replies later. I thought it was flash/shockwave doing it so I disabled them in google chrome but it's still acting very buggy.

40 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:23:17am

re: #34 beekiller

Just what we need, the tabloids perpetuating this bullshit.
Currently on the shelves of your local Walgreen's:

Image: 25i0sp5.jpg

Geez, they could at least start with Alien Sex and work their way down.

41 Four More Tears  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:23:33am

re: #36 WindUpBird

We were squatting in the dust looking for pieces of EL wire about as big as a pencil lead, so yes :D

See, if Jones was smart he'd try to make something interesting out of this burning. Maybe stack them all in the shape of a cross.

Oh, wait...

42 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:24:46am

re: #39 RogueOne

Not sure why but whenever a thread gets past 500 posts or so it locks up my laptop. I'll read any replies later. I thought it was flash/shockwave doing it so I disabled them in google chrome but it's still acting very buggy.

My tablet PC hates long threads on LGF, it just runs out of memory allocated to firefox or something

43 deranged cat  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:25:04am

re: #34 beekiller

Just what we need, the tabloids perpetuating this bullshit.
Currently on the shelves of your local Walgreen's:

Image: 25i0sp5.jpg

omg, demi's cheating on ashton with a woman?! ////

44 RogueOne  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:25:47am

I have real work to accomplish, thanks for the interesting thread downstairs.

45 RadicalModerate  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:25:59am

re: #29 RadicalModerate

One other thing from this story - instead of shunning Mr. Fischer's extreme viewpoints, the SoCon right in the United States is EMBRACING him:

Fischer is scheduled to speak at the conservative Value Voters summit this month alongside Mitt Romney, Michele Bachmann, Mike Huckabee and others.

46 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:26:42am

re: #45 RadicalModerate

One other thing from this story - instead of shunning Mr. Fischer's extreme viewpoints, the SoCon right in the United States is EMBRACING him:

Oh Mike Huckabee you used to at least make the right compassionate noises

now, just another douche

47 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:26:58am

re: #43 deranged cat

omg, demi's cheating on ashton with a woman?! ///

There's a sale at pennys!

48 avanti  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:27:22am

re: #42 WindUpBird

My tablet PC hates long threads on LGF, it just runs out of memory allocated to firefox or something

I suspect it's the ad's loading, once the subscribers go ad free, the text should load very fast.

49 reine.de.tout  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:28:06am
Afghan Insurgents Use Planned Koran Burning to Turn Villagers Against U.S.

This is turning into a national security issue, it seems to me.
geez. Can't something be done to keep this guy from proceeding with this?

50 Kragar  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:29:10am

re: #49 reine.de.tout

This is turning into a national security issue, it seems to me.
geez. Can't something be done to keep this guy from proceeding with this?

I think a load of fireproof Korans would be in order. Swap them out right before the burning, wackiness ensues.

51 laZardo  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:30:47am

Headin' to bed.

Nighty.

Also if the pastor doesn't end up going through with it in the end, 4chan probably will.

52 Political Atheist  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:30:49am

re: #49 reine.de.tout
Pray for rain on his parade.
This is one of those days we are painfully reminded of how our rights can be abused. We pay this high price from time to time usually over some extremist. The call out is the best we can do I suspect.

53 avanti  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:32:08am

re: #49 reine.de.tout

This is turning into a national security issue, it seems to me.
geez. Can't something be done to keep this guy from proceeding with this?

Not constitutionally, unless the POTUS can invoke some sort extraordinary war powers thing like we did in WWII.

54 Kronocide  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:32:20am

I hope the media understands the weight of the situation with the Quran burning agit-prop. Report on it without sensationalizing it.

I'm sure Rauf will respond to it further, I hope others join him.

55 kirkspencer  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:33:16am

re: #21 Charles

The VAST majority of the people who are opposed to the Cordoba House and the VAST majority of people who are prejudiced against Islam know almost nothing about Islam. It's absurd to claim that these people are anti-Islam because they're "informed." They're "informed" by a cottage industry of religious extremists and bigots.

I used the word "prejudice" very deliberately. It describes the phenomenon perfectly.

prejudice |ˈprejədəs|
noun

1 preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience : English prejudice against foreigners | anti-Jewish prejudices.

• dislike, hostility, or unjust behavior formed on such a basis : accusations of racial prejudice.

Some years back I pointed out that a blog owner was practicing censorship. The owner objected ("I never censor"), and I was promptly blocked and the message was deleted. In that case I wasn't saying he was wrong. However, the undesired negative semantic load led to the dissonance between actions and beliefs.

The situation applies here, and it won't matter how often you point out the prejudice, the prejudiced will insist they aren't. It's just they're not in a position to block and delete you.

56 allegro  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:33:25am

re: #49 reine.de.tout

This is turning into a national security issue, it seems to me.
geez. Can't something be done to keep this guy from proceeding with this?

I've seen a couple of times that the local fire marshal has said "no way" to this. Does that mean that going ahead with it anyway will result in arrest?

57 wrenchwench  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:34:33am
strongly confirms what was already empirically obvious

Empirical obviousness just doesn't carry the weight that it used to.

58 RadicalModerate  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:35:59am

re: #34 beekiller

Just what we need, the tabloids perpetuating this bullshit.
Currently on the shelves of your local Walgreen's:

Image: 25i0sp5.jpg

One thing that has really bugged me about this particular meme.
According to these idiots, President Obama's supposed to be a Muslim.
A beer-drinking, cigarette-smoking, ham-sandwich-eating, never-once-in-his-life-seen-praying-to-Mecca Muslim.

Logical thinking is obviously not their strong suit.

59 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:36:45am

re: #56 allegro

I've seen a couple of times that the local fire marshal has said "no way" to this. Does that mean that going ahead with it anyway will result in arrest?

If they treat this with the same seriousness as they treat oversold rock clubs, yes

60 avanti  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:37:13am

"Quran burning flap a distraction from Obama agenda"

"Look, this is a recruitment bonanza for Al Qaida," Obama said in a taped interview on ABC. "You could have serious violence in places like Pakistan and Afghanistan."

Burning.

61 kirkspencer  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:38:02am

re: #57 wrenchwench

strongly confirms what was already empirically obvious

Empirical obviousness just doesn't carry the weight that it used to.

I've become suspicious of claims of empirical obviousness. After all, at one time it was empirically obvious that black men were only worth 3/5ths of a white man.

If it's testable, test it. At a minimum, recognize that appearances can deceive.

62 Summer Seale  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:38:55am

Well, to be honest: as a hardcore feminist and atheist, I have a pretty unfavorable view of Islam as well (and yes, pretty much every other religion too). But that doesn't change their right to build it. Also, using the excuse that it is "offensive" is the exact same excuse that they use to berate us over the Danish cartoons and all the rest.

It's been said ad nauseum at any rate. I find it incredibly funny that Pat Condell uses the offensive argument about the location of that center when he berates Muslims for using the same argument when they think their prophet has been "defiled". I don't like being hypocritical and so I find myself in the position defending the right for this thing to be built.

I've said it all before though, of course. But you've all missed me so much that I thought I'd grace the board once more with my goddess-like presence. =)

63 Political Atheist  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:40:00am

One unfortunate thing is that at least by comparison Terry Jones makes the opposition to Park51 look good, or better. This has taken some heat off the opposition.

64 Kronocide  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:40:17am

re: #60 avanti

"Quran burning flap a distraction from Obama agenda"

"Look, this is a recruitment bonanza for Al Qaida," Obama said in a taped interview on ABC. "You could have serious violence in places like Pakistan and Afghanistan."

Burning.

Sometimes his 'off the cuffery' has been a little rough but this time he nailed it.

65 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:41:06am

re: #60 avanti

"Quran burning flap a distraction from Obama agenda"

"Look, this is a recruitment bonanza for Al Qaida," Obama said in a taped interview on ABC. "You could have serious violence in places like Pakistan and Afghanistan."

Burning.

these people want a bonanza for Al Qaida, they want a fight, they want to incite violence, it justifies their prejudices and satisfies their misplace desire for vengeance

66 Lidane  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:41:29am

re: #2 Dreggas

Also breaking: Sun rises in east, sets in west.

Also, bears are Catholic and Popes...well, you know.

67 jaunte  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:42:34am

re: #65 WindUpBird

Unfortunately, most of the agitators won't be the ones who pay the price for the fighting.

68 allegro  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:42:47am

re: #65 WindUpBird

these people want a bonanza for Al Qaida, they want a fight, they want to incite violence, it justifies their prejudices and satisfies their misplace desire for vengeance

I do believe this sums up the entirely of the motivation. The two sides need each other in order to exist. Creepy as hell.

69 wrenchwench  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:42:58am

re: #65 WindUpBird

these people want a bonanza for Al Qaida, they want a fight, they want to incite violence, it justifies their prejudices and satisfies their misplace desire for vengeance

Terry Jones can't have a religious war if he can't get the other side to shoot back.

70 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:43:22am

re: #68 allegro

I do believe this sums up the entirely of the motivation. The two sides need each other in order to exist. Creepy as hell.

Symbiotic relationship, everyone getting what they want out of the deal

71 spikester  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:44:09am

re: #66 Lidane

Also, bears are Catholic and Popes...well, you know.


?????
i've never seen a headline "catholic eat's camper"

72 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:44:09am

re: #69 wrenchwench

Terry Jones can't have a religious war if he can't get the other side to shoot back.

let's hope!

Man I see this stuff just getting SO much worse

73 allegro  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:44:26am

re: #70 WindUpBird

Symbiotic relationship, everyone getting what they want out of the deal

'Cept for the poor suckers who get caught in the crossfire.

74 Interesting Times  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:44:34am

re: #63 Rightwingconspirator

One unfortunate thing is that at least by comparison Terry Jones makes the opposition to Park51 look good, or better. This has taken some heat off the opposition.

It gives them a chance to use the "see, look, we're condemning this act which automagically means we're not prejudiced!" line of defense...but watching Jon Stewart's roundup of round table idiocy last night, I saw those people draw a ridiculous and laughable false equivalence between the Koran-burning and Park51 (i.e. "if we're supposed to be sensitive and not burn the Koran, they should be sensitive and not build their center"). I would hope that makes them look like hypocritical morons to any person with at least half a functioning brain cell...

75 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:44:39am

re: #73 allegro

'Cept for the poor suckers who get caught in the crossfire.

yes :(

76 elizajane  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:44:55am

re: #49 reine.de.tout

This is turning into a national security issue, it seems to me.
geez. Can't something be done to keep this guy from proceeding with this?

I'm afraid that a lot of the damage has already been done. I mean, if the man calls off his book-burning spree (possibly on the orders of the local fire department) do we believe that the Taliban will go around dropping pamphlets in villages saying "Good news! Americans respect our holy book! Let's all be friends now"? I mean, yes, the YouTube video of these Florida idiots (or, now, the loon in Tennessee) will be extra-good propaganda material, but the basic narrative for jihadi recruitment has already been established.

77 kirkspencer  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:45:16am

re: #69 wrenchwench

Terry Jones can't have a religious war if he can't get the other side to shoot back.

There was an argument from the left for quite a while that Bush was the best thing that ever happened to Ahmadinejad. The underlying point is pretty much this.

78 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:50:23am

It's profitable for the agitators in multiple ways, therefore they keep doing it. And since you get that nice synergy from the two extremes feeding off each other they see no reason to rein it in.

From a POV believing in toleration, getting along, and cooperating in dealing with the issues that leave people starving, over stressing natural resources, and wasting humans by not educating them I see a lot of effort and annoying rhetoric being flung at something that simply IS. NOT. IMPORTANT.*

* - Facing the bigotry is important. Getting one's panties in a bunch over the religious beliefs and cultural traditions of a different group of people if often not. Doing so in a blatantly hypocritical way is both amusing in its obliviousness and distressing in its lack of empathy at the same time. (Assuming they are not lying knowingly and on purpose, in which case they're simply pandering slime.)

79 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:51:11am

Part of what reveals prejudices the most is challenging someone on a controversial matter using other values that they hold which they don't see in play.

Let me explain with a local issue that I have been involved in -

A nearby WalMart has applied for permits to redevelop their site into a WalMart super center. This has attracted a fair amount of opposition. While I don't have a problem with the expansion, I helped some friends in the opposition deal with some misleading information put out by WalMart. In so doing I discovered (not surprisingly) that the opposition was made up of people who simply oppose the existence of WalMart.

The application by WalMart didn't ask for a zoning change. As such, WalMart is entitled to the rightful and uncontroversial application of due process as both an entity and a property owner. I actually got into a few heated arguments with friends about this simple point. Their pre-disposition to opposing WalMart led them to want to strip WalMart of some basic rights which everyone is entitled to. These are people who would normally beat the drum on protecting property rights from the edicts of whimsical bureaucrats - they now wanted bureaucrats to apply absolute power whimsically.

The zoning at Park 51 allows for a Mosque (or even a satanic worship center). We have supposed conservatives who will normally beat the drum on -
*property rights
*religious freedom
*due process
*containing government excesses
asking government to deny due process and property rights on the basis that government finds a religious beleif system unacceptable.

When you challenge the bigotted directly they scream "I'm not biggoted - its my right!" When you ask them about their values they will proudly assert them up until you then challenge them on the case where they aren't applying them. Some will come around - others will make clear that they don't want to be your friend anymore.

80 Gus  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:55:19am

Operation Save America: 9/11 Was God's Punishment for Abortion
Submitted by Kyle on September 9, 2010 - 9:58am

It looks like Operation Save America is taking time off from harassing Muslims in order hold a press conference on 9/11 to deliver the "prophetic message" that God will continue to unleash terrorist attacks against the United States so long as abortion remains legal:

At noon on Saturday, September 11th, at the corner of Murray and Church Street in New York City leaders of Operation Save America will conduct a press conference and at 1 PM unveil a prophetic message to America.

Rev. Rusty Lee Thomas, Assistant Director of Operation Save America, states, "We are going to New York City at this hallowed time not to politicize September 11th, but to present a prophetic message, that if heeded, may prevent future attacks and restore God's hand of blessing upon our beleaguered nation.

"Our sins of child-killing (abortion) and homosexuality have reached heaven. They are the roots of America's troubles; a tyrannical government and the threat of Islam are the horrific fruits that are being produced under our watch. There is a direct connection between our spiritual and moral state and the litany of woe afflicting our nation. If America desires to secure a future and a hope for our children and grandchildren, we must end the American holocaust; quit parading our sin like Sodom, and return to the God of the Bible and His principles that served our nation so well in times past."

81 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 10:58:12am

re: #79 karmic_inquisitor

Geez - lots o typos in that one - sorry - pimf/scimf

82 Dad O' Blondes  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 11:00:59am

re: #49 reine.de.tout

This is turning into a national security issue, it seems to me.
geez. Can't something be done to keep this guy from proceeding with this?

Probably not.

Some people burn Bibles. Some burn American flags. Some make "art" called "Piss Christ."

.

83 Lidane  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 11:10:10am

re: #82 Dad O' Blondes

Piss Christ was from 1987. If you're going to make an argument, using an example that's more recent would probably help.

84 Cineaste  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 11:18:14am

re: #13 lostlakehiker

I think you are conflating some ideas. While your point feels valid, upon closer reflection I'm not sure it is. Anti-Islam sentiment is a judgement on the practitioners of Islam since a religion is principally embodied by its adherents. By saying that you are against them without having met them and without parsing them then it is a form of pre-judging - eg: prejudice.

For example. Are you against Ismali Muslims and their faith? I would say that upon inspection you would be hard pressed to be against them. What about the baha'i who find their roots in Islam?

If you will see that you are against all of the above (ie: you are "anti-Islam") then it is just as reasonable to call you prejudiced than it would be to call you anti-semitic (and prejudiced) if you opposed all Jews because you oppose radical zionists.

85 Cineaste  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 11:19:51am

re: #82 Dad O' Blondes

Probably not.

Some people burn Bibles. Some burn American flags. Some make "art" called "Piss Christ."

.

I don't think there was a reasonable expectation that Piss Christ was intended to foster hatred and would radicalize people to commit against of violence against our nation.

86 eneri  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 11:21:11am

As has been stated by others, IMO, the number one problem isn't hate or hate speech; it's the impunity of the haters to publicly admit it without reproach.

87 lostlakehiker  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 11:37:56am

re: #56 allegro

I've seen a couple of times that the local fire marshal has said "no way" to this. Does that mean that going ahead with it anyway will result in arrest?

The local fire marshal has said that the ink in books makes them hazmat and so they can't be burned.

Good grief. Newspapers go up in flames every day to start campfires. The fire marshal is saying whatever he has to say to stop it, but even he doesn't believe his shit.

Burning those Qurans is a very bad idea, but making up pseudo-scientific shit so as to prevent it is another bad idea. No court would have stood for banning flag-burnings on the grounds that the dye in the flags makes them hazmat.

The reasons for not burning a Quran have nothing to do with chemistry and everything to do with basic respect. Why go and hurt peoples' feelings?

88 lostlakehiker  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 11:40:42am

re: #79 karmic_inquisitor

Part of what reveals prejudices the most is challenging someone on a controversial matter using other values that they hold which they don't see in play.

Let me explain with a local issue that I have been involved in -

A nearby WalMart has applied for permits to redevelop their site into a WalMart super center. This has attracted a fair amount of opposition. While I don't have a problem with the expansion, I helped some friends in the opposition deal with some misleading information put out by WalMart. In so doing I discovered (not surprisingly) that the opposition was made up of people who simply oppose the existence of WalMart.

The application by WalMart didn't ask for a zoning change. As such, WalMart is entitled to the rightful and uncontroversial application of due process as both an entity and a property owner. I actually got into a few heated arguments with friends about this simple point. Their pre-disposition to opposing WalMart led them to want to strip WalMart of some basic rights which everyone is entitled to. These are people who would normally beat the drum on protecting property rights from the edicts of whimsical bureaucrats - they now wanted bureaucrats to apply absolute power whimsically.

The zoning at Park 51 allows for a Mosque (or even a satanic worship center). We have supposed conservatives who will normally beat the drum on -
*property rights
*religious freedom
*due process
*containing government excesses
asking government to deny due process and property rights on the basis that government finds a religious beleif system unacceptable.

When you challenge the bigotted directly they scream "I'm not biggoted - its my right!" When you ask them about their values they will proudly assert them up until you then challenge them on the case where they aren't applying them. Some will come around - others will make clear that they don't want to be your friend anymore.

Hmmph. I don't think it's a move likely to win hearts and minds for Islam, putting that project there, but they have every right to do so. Making the rules as you go so as to get the result you want is the sort of dumb stunt you'd expect from some local fire marshal, and not a worthy response from a great cosmopolitan world city.

89 Dad O' Blondes  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 11:43:20am

It's not about "hate" or "hate speech" -- at least as it pertains to the law, and the evident concerns cited on this thread.

The applicable legal test here is whether the burning of Korans can be halted under proscribed limits of free speech rights. And those proscribed limits are tested under the "imminent lawless action" threshold.

Will the burning of Korans (or Bibles, or American flags) incite "imminent lawless action?"

And/or, did the display called "Piss Christ" (in 1987, or ever) incite "imminent lawless action?"

An interesting test of "rights" is quite evident here, both with the mosque and the planned burning of Korans. Competing "rights" with valid claims often become the true test of "leadership" and "statesmanship" -- qualities desperately lacking in this debate.

.

90 lostlakehiker  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 11:47:42am

re: #84 Cineaste

I think you are conflating some ideas. While your point feels valid, upon closer reflection I'm not sure it is. Anti-Islam sentiment is a judgement on the practitioners of Islam since a religion is principally embodied by its adherents. By saying that you are against them without having met them and without parsing them then it is a form of pre-judging - eg: prejudice.

For example. Are you against Ismali Muslims and their faith? I would say that upon inspection you would be hard pressed to be against them. What about the baha'i who find their roots in Islam?

If you will see that you are against all of the above (ie: you are "anti-Islam") then it is just as reasonable to call you prejudiced than it would be to call you anti-semitic (and prejudiced) if you opposed all Jews because you oppose radical zionists.

I don't discount the good just because I'm aware of the bad. There is much to admire in the history of Islam, and some things to admire in the doctrine. Islam has been the source of some great architecture, for instance. As to Ismailis, no complaints. As to Bahai's, they're sweet. I deplore how they're now being treated in Iran.

The Iranian clerics explain that under Islamic law, this treatment is divinely ordained. If they're right that their doctrine requires such cruelty, then I just think less of their doctrine. If they're wrong, then how come they get to be the ones telling millions of Muslims what Islam means?

91 Charles Johnson  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 11:48:09am

re: #62 Summer

Well, to be honest: as a hardcore feminist and atheist, I have a pretty unfavorable view of Islam as well (and yes, pretty much every other religion too). But that doesn't change their right to build it. Also, using the excuse that it is "offensive" is the exact same excuse that they use to berate us over the Danish cartoons and all the rest.

It's been said ad nauseum at any rate. I find it incredibly funny that Pat Condell uses the offensive argument about the location of that center when he berates Muslims for using the same argument when they think their prophet has been "defiled". I don't like being hypocritical and so I find myself in the position defending the right for this thing to be built.

I've said it all before though, of course. But you've all missed me so much that I thought I'd grace the board once more with my goddess-like presence. =)

I agree with this -- I have no more positive feelings toward Islam than I do toward other religions, and I think it's clear that modern Islam does have a problem with violent extremist sects.

It's not about Islam for me -- it's about the separation of church and state, and freedom of religion as guaranteed by the US Constitution. And the fact is that in the case of the Cordoba House, these are exactly the kinds of Muslims we should be supporting and encouraging, if we're really sincere about making a reform possible within Islam. These are the Muslims who will be the reformers.

It's pathetic and disgusting to me that instead of looking at the record of Imam Rauf, what he's stood for and what he's said, so many people are just reacting with mindless prejudice and ignorance. I've never seen a more un-American "movement."

92 Cineaste  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 11:52:38am

re: #87 lostlakehiker

The local fire marshal has said that the ink in books makes them hazmat and so they can't be burned.

Good grief. Newspapers go up in flames every day to start campfires. The fire marshal is saying whatever he has to say to stop it, but even he doesn't believe his shit.

Burning those Qurans is a very bad idea, but making up pseudo-scientific shit so as to prevent it is another bad idea. No court would have stood for banning flag-burnings on the grounds that the dye in the flags makes them hazmat.

The reasons for not burning a Quran have nothing to do with chemistry and everything to do with basic respect. Why go and hurt peoples' feelings?

I suppose there is a question of how big a pile of Korans it will be. Many jursidictions require a permit or at least fire department permission for a "bonfire". Burning a single koran - sure. Burning a few - probably. Burning tall pile, that's starting to sound like a bonfire. I don't know what this idiot is planning but a fire department objection to a bonfire is reasonable if it is a bonfire - regardless of whether the fuel is wood, flags, or korans.

93 Cineaste  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 11:55:20am

re: #90 lostlakehiker

I don't discount the good just because I'm aware of the bad. There is much to admire in the history of Islam, and some things to admire in the doctrine. Islam has been the source of some great architecture, for instance. As to Ismailis, no complaints. As to Bahai's, they're sweet. I deplore how they're now being treated in Iran.

The Iranian clerics explain that under Islamic law, this treatment is divinely ordained. If they're right that their doctrine requires such cruelty, then I just think less of their doctrine. If they're wrong, then how come they get to be the ones telling millions of Muslims what Islam means?

Then the parsing goes on. You clearly aren't against all shi'a since Ismailis are shi'a, so are you against all sunni? How do you maintain the idea that you're "anti-Islam" if you're fine with tens of millions of practitioners?

94 harlequinade  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 11:57:41am

re: #33 WindUpBird

Can you/have you done a page? I was going this year but my group decided "Nah" when the tickets went on sale. Next year I'm going to find a better group

95 wrenchwench  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 12:05:08pm

re: #89 Dad O' Blondes

And/or, did the display called "Piss Christ" (in 1987, or ever) incite "imminent lawless action?"

You have a urine fixation today?

96 prairiefire  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 12:07:01pm

re: #89 Dad O' Blondes

And/or, did the display called "Piss Christ" (in 1987, or ever) incite "imminent lawless action?"

It inspired a lot of future artists.

97 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 12:14:57pm

Yet another confirmation of the incredibly obvious, brought to you by statistics.

98 HappyWarrior  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 12:16:53pm

I'm not shocked at all really.

99 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 12:29:12pm

re: #88 lostlakehiker

Hmmph. I don't think it's a move likely to win hearts and minds for Islam, putting that project there, but they have every right to do so. Making the rules as you go so as to get the result you want is the sort of dumb stunt you'd expect from some local fire marshal, and not a worthy response from a great cosmopolitan world city.

hey lostlake -

I don't know where a "hearts and minds" campaign will go. I've been around long enough to have seen many public relations efforts fail - even ones with a lot of money behind them. As you have said, they have a right to engage in the such an effort. What I was focusing on is how many people (including myself) will unwittingly bring baggage to a debate and will be unaware of it until it is pointed out indirectly. Consequently (and as I get older) I have become wary of just about every absolutist political I come across.

100 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 2:08:15pm

re: #13 lostlakehiker

Your kidding right? All this anti-Islam fervor is the result of intensive study of Islam by each protester and justifiable righteous indignation over an informed knowledge of their religious beliefs? Really?

/Wow are you delusional... :p

101 ClaudeMonet  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 6:10:14pm

re: #2 Dreggas

Also breaking: Sun rises in east, sets in west.

Water is wet. Video at eleven.

re: #50 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I think a load of fireproof Korans would be in order. Swap them out right before the burning, wackiness ensues.

That's a great idea!

re: #58 RadicalModerate


Logical thinking is obviously not their strong suit.

That's a given.

re: #62 Summer

You've been missed. Welcome back!

re: #79 karmic_inquisitor


When you challenge the bigotted directly they scream "I'm not biggoted - its my right!" When you ask them about their values they will proudly assert them up until you then challenge them on the case where they aren't applying them. Some will come around - others will make clear that they don't want to be your friend anymore.

If that's how they roll, you don't need them as friends anyway.

102 schnapp  Thu, Sep 9, 2010 8:05:40pm

re: #91 Charles

That's a fantastic comment. I favourited it.


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