TeaBagCon: Patriotic Burqas

Wingnuts • Views: 3,492

We have the official “WTF!” photo from today’s TeaBagCon on the National Mall, courtesy of Dave Weigel. Maybe they’re counter-protesters?

UPDATE at 9/12/10 2:08:19 pm:

These garments are for sale here: Zarinas.Com: Women’s Clothing (Burqas). And Dave Weigel tells me they’re not counter-protesters; apparently, they were a big hit, went to the front row, and got cheers.

UPDATE at 9/12/10 2:59:38 pm:

Here’s a video from the sign-making party the previous night; as we’ve been speculating in comments, those weren’t Muslims inside those burqas.

Youtube Video

Jump to bottom

392 comments
1 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:21:57pm

And now I've seen everything...

Usually I can interpret this sort of thing reasonably well, but I'm frankly stumped. There's something in there about patriotism, and there's something in there about burqas, but I really don't know what the take-home statement is supposed to be, here.

2 Reginald Perrin  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:22:02pm

Are they a tag team from WWE?

3 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:23:11pm

I'm wondering if they're counter-protesters. Check out the scowl on the lady at upper left -- she doesn't trust 'em.

4 Reginald Perrin  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:23:44pm

re: #1 SanFranciscoZionist

It makes no sense whatsoever.

5 Lidane  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:24:51pm

Just once I'd like for these idiots to explain to me exactly which freedoms they've lost in the last 20 months since Obama has been president.

6 Reginald Perrin  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:25:53pm

re: #5 Lidane

Just once I'd like for these idiots to explain to me exactly which freedoms they've lost in the last 20 months since Obama has been president.

It certainly isn't the right to make a fool of yourself in public.

7 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:26:06pm

re: #3 Charles

I'm wondering if they're counter-protesters. Check out the scowl on the lady at upper left -- she doesn't trust 'em.

Could be, but then I still don't get it.

8 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:27:55pm

re: #1 SanFranciscoZionist

And now I've seen everything...

Usually I can interpret this sort of thing reasonably well, but I'm frankly stumped. There's something in there about patriotism, and there's something in there about burqas, but I really don't know what the take-home statement is supposed to be, here.

If they truly are counter-protesters, it's a brilliant idea, and that's a statement I can interpret.

9 ClaudeMonet  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:28:46pm

re: #3 Charles

I'm wondering if they're counter-protesters. Check out the scowl on the lady at upper left -- she doesn't trust 'em.

So far, that's the best idea I've come up with (and you were quicker). As for the scowling lady, she probably doesn't trust anyone. Note, however, the two amused ladies to the right. They're probably thinking, "Hey, it's something stupid and funny!"

10 engineer cat  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:28:57pm

re: #5 Lidane

Just once I'd like for these idiots to explain to me exactly which freedoms they've lost in the last 20 months since Obama has been president.

you have to remember that a large number of them live in an alternate reality where the government has 'taken over' the automobile and health care industry, and where a government bureaucrat will tell them what doctor to see and which medical procedures they can or can't have

11 Sionainn  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:30:11pm

The stars on the top and around the face add a little extra, um, something to the look.

12 elizajane  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:30:23pm

Oh noes! It's the Tealiban!

13 Lidane  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:30:24pm

re: #1 SanFranciscoZionist

My guess is that it's supposed to be some kind of message about America being oppressed by the Seekrit Mooslim Overlord in the White House, and that we're all wearing metaphorical burqas which will become literal when Obama imposes Sharia law on all of us. Or something. Maybe.

In other words, it's the usual logic fail from the teabaggers.

14 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:30:59pm

re: #10 engineer dog

you have to remember that a large number of them live in an alternate reality where the government has 'taken over' the automobile and health care industry, and where a government bureaucrat will tell them what doctor to see and which medical procedures they can or can't have

Has anyone else's doctor quit to avoid dealing with Obamacare? We had a little outbreak of that on the blog a while ago.

15 Sionainn  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:31:45pm

re: #13 Lidane

My guess is that it's supposed to be some kind of message about America being oppressed by the Seekrit Mooslim Overlord in the White House, and that we're all wearing metaphorical burqas which will become literal when Obama imposes Sharia law on all of us. Or something. Maybe.

In other words, it's the usual logic fail from the teabaggers.

I don't think they are capable of formulating that kind of statement.

16 Sionainn  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:32:45pm

re: #14 SanFranciscoZionist

Has anyone else's doctor quit to avoid dealing with Obamacare? We had a little outbreak of that on the blog a while ago.

Not mine, nor anyone else I know. In fact, it seems that the doctors I work for are seeing more patients than ever.

17 Lidane  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:33:18pm

re: #15 Sionainn

I don't think they are capable of formulating that kind of statement.

True. It was probably more like, "Hey! Let's wear American flag burqas! That'll show the liberals! HURR DURR HURR!"

They're not the brightest bulbs in the box, after all.

18 engineer cat  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:33:22pm

i think the burqas show very good design sense; hence, they were probably not designed by baggers

19 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:33:55pm

re: #13 Lidane

My guess is that it's supposed to be some kind of message about America being oppressed by the Seekrit Mooslim Overlord in the White House, and that we're all wearing metaphorical burqas which will become literal when Obama imposes Sharia law on all of us. Or something. Maybe.

In other words, it's the usual logic fail from the teabaggers.

OR... they really are counter-protesters, and the burqa in red, white and blue represents the oppressive nature of American nationalism that is represented at the rally.

20 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:34:01pm

Possibly counter-protesters making a statement about "American Taliban?"

21 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:34:45pm

Maybe "just" Dada.

22 Lidane  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:35:26pm

re: #19 eclectic infidel

That's possible too. Still, you know that even if they ARE counter-protesters, someone there took them literally and started ranting about the Muslim president we've got who plans to kill whitey after he destroys America.

23 Stanghazi  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:36:33pm

re: #19 eclectic infidel

OR... they really are counter-protesters, and the burqa in red, white and blue represents the oppressive nature of American nationalism that is represented at the rally.

I'm with you on this.

24 Kronocide  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:36:57pm

re: #18 engineer dog

i think the burqas show very good design sense; hence, they were probably not designed by baggers

I think it's just a statement: 'Americastan! Sharia Law!'

The problem is people make statements, or points, and that's the argument. That's it.

25 ClaudeMonet  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:37:11pm

re: #14 SanFranciscoZionist

Has anyone else's doctor quit to avoid dealing with Obamacare? We had a little outbreak of that on the blog a while ago.

I have some doctor clients in their 60s or older, who may use it as a reason (pretext, rationalization, excuse) for retiring. Deep down, I don't think they want to retire because they're still going strong, but the idea of having to adjust to yet another regime of paperwork has them down.

BTW, the ones I have in mind are all Democrats, if that makes a difference to you.

26 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:37:15pm

re: #20 Charles

Possibly counter-protesters making a statement about "American Taliban?"

That's the meme I'm thinking about right now.

27 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:38:43pm

re: #22 Lidane

That's possible too. Still, you know that even if they ARE counter-protesters, someone there took them literally and started ranting about the Muslim president we've got who plans to kill whitey after he destroys America.

Of course. That's what makes the costume brilliant. It has dual meaning and in that crowd, it's good to fit in for safety's sake.

28 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:39:54pm

re: #20 Charles

Possibly counter-protesters making a statement about "American Taliban?"

If is, I score it excellent on concept and execution...takes some brass balls to go in to that den of iniquity like that.

29 engineer cat  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:41:44pm

re: #24 BigPapa

I think it's just a statement: 'Americastan! Sharia Law!'

The problem is people make statements, or points, and that's the argument. That's it.

indeed

how many times have i attempted to make a connected, logical argument, only to find that the person i am "debating" with thinks that some one-size-fits-all smartass crack is a valid counter argument.

"yeah, sure - having everybody be a government employee worked so well in the soviet union - oh, wait..."

30 Summer Seale  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:42:24pm

OT:

I just have to say that the Ataturk revolution is dead today. I mourn for it. =( Turkey's Islamists are now unchecked.

31 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:44:08pm

These garments are for sale here: Zarinas.Com: Women's Clothing (Burqas).

32 Stanghazi  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:45:46pm

re: #31 Charles

These garments are for sale here: Zarinas.Com: Women's Clothing (Burqas).

Oh I wish they had a Gator one. Pretty wild.

33 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:45:52pm

re: #14 SanFranciscoZionist

Has anyone else's doctor quit to avoid dealing with Obamacare? We had a little outbreak of that on the blog a while ago.

I have yet to hear of anyone I know, or anyone my nurse friends and health care friends know (and I have many) having a doctor quit over Obamacare

My nurse friends are actually really excited about Obamacare, because they're seeing a power shift towards nurse practicioners and away from doctors, because doctors are becoming specialists at a far greater rate than they are becoming GPs, and thus failing the needs of Americans

So nurse practitioners are filling the vaccuum

34 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:46:26pm

re: #31 Charles

These garments are for sale here: Zarinas.Com: Women's Clothing (Burqas).

Well, I'll be.

I guess I know what I'm wearing for Halloween this year.

35 Ojoe  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:46:37pm

Please call the fashion police.

36 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:46:57pm

re: #32 Stanley Sea

Oh I wish they had a Gator one. Pretty wild.

If they had a Raiders one, I could wear it to a game.

37 b_Snark  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:47:02pm

If burqas were designed in the US they would have little electric windshield wipers for the clear plastic eye hole cover.

38 ClaudeMonet  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:47:28pm

re: #31 Charles

These garments are for sale here: Zarinas.Com: Women's Clothing (Burqas).

I think they should offer one with the Israeli flag. It would be a mind-blower for some of the more conservative Muslims.

39 engineer cat  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:47:36pm

re: #31 Charles

These garments are for sale here: Zarinas.Com: Women's Clothing (Burqas).

aha!

Hot Pink Burqa

punk band name!

40 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:47:46pm

re: #25 ClaudeMonet

I have some doctor clients in their 60s or older, who may use it as a reason (pretext, rationalization, excuse) for retiring. Deep down, I don't think they want to retire because they're still going strong, but the idea of having to adjust to yet another regime of paperwork has them down.

BTW, the ones I have in mind are all Democrats, if that makes a difference to you.

That's pretty common in any field that experiences upheaval, yeah, you're settled, you got it going on, then you have to adjust to a whole new thing, and then you just decide to take the path of least resistance

41 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:47:50pm

Yikes. They're cheering like crazy for kooky Ken Cuccinelli.

42 Stanghazi  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:49:02pm

re: #36 SanFranciscoZionist

If they had a Raiders one, I could wear it to a game.

LOL, dangerous!!!

43 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:50:42pm

re: #21 000G

Maybe "just" Dada.

Yeah, I'm going with performance art not intended for me to understand, an homage to the chicken dinner scene from Eraserhead, or suchlike.

44 ClaudeMonet  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:51:09pm

re: #42 Stanley Sea

LOL, dangerous!!!

Unlike the Raiduhs.

Tennessee 38
Oakland 13

45 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:51:42pm

re: #41 Charles

Cuccinelli issued a letter to Virginia's public colleges and universities that said, in part, "It is my advice that the law and public policy of the Commonwealth of Virginia prohibit a college or university from including 'sexual orientation,' 'gender identity,' 'gender expression,' or like classification as a protected class within its non-discrimination policy absent specific authorization from the General Assembly"

and

In 2004, Cuccinelli stated "homosexuality is wrong"[92] and during his 2009 campaign for attorney general opposed a nondiscrimination policy against gays and lesbians and stated about homosexual acts: "I happen to think that it represents (to put it politely; I need my thesaurus to be polite) behavior that is not healthy to an individual and in aggregate is not healthy to society."[93] More directly, Cuccinelli said that “homosexual acts are wrong” and that “in a natural law based country it’s appropriate to have policies that reflect that.” [17]


Classy little fucker, isn't he

46 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:51:46pm

Yow camouflage burqas! Gotta love it. I have this mental image of an Army of women in them chasing off the militias...

47 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:52:19pm

re: #31 Charles

These garments are for sale here: Zarinas.Com: Women's Clothing (Burqas).

I like the camo burqa best

48 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:52:40pm

re: #3 Charles

Wouldn't it be funny if they were real Tea Party Muslims?

49 Ojoe  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:53:09pm

I read somewhere that in places where the women have to wear burquas, they get hit by cars more, (as pedestrians) because their peripheral vision is way compromised by their garment.

50 Kronocide  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:53:11pm

re: #30 Summer

OT:

I just have to say that the Ataturk revolution is dead today. I mourn for it. =( Turkey's Islamists are now unchecked.

Summer, where might I find some update to this situation? I'm looking around now.

51 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:53:48pm

re: #49 Ojoe

I read somewhere that in places where the women have to wear burquas, they get hit by cars more, (as pedestrians) because their peripheral vision is way compromised by their garment.

problem is, if they don't wear them, they get hit with stones...

52 Ojoe  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:54:42pm

re: #30 Summer

In fact Kemal Attaturk specifically promoted western clothing.

53 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:54:46pm

Rogers is being absolutely killed today. I'm guessing Brett is glad he ain't behind that offensive line.

54 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:55:18pm

re: #38 ClaudeMonet

I think they should offer one with the Israeli flag. It would be a mind-blower for some of the more conservative Muslims.

I was just thinking that I was sure I could think of SOMETHING to do with one of those. And it's not conservative Muslims I'd be trying to shock.

55 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:55:54pm

re: #39 engineer dog

aha!

Hot Pink Burqa

punk band name!

Lady I know was lead singer for an Israeli band called Iraqis in Pajamas for a while.

56 Ojoe  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:57:32pm

How about a bump and grind burqua that unzips into 7 veils?

Better quit now...

57 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:58:14pm

Dave Weigel tweeted to me that they were not counter-protesters - they were a big hit, went to the front.

58 ClaudeMonet  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:58:15pm

re: #54 SanFranciscoZionist

I was just thinking that I was sure I could think of SOMETHING to do with one of those. And it's not conservative Muslims I'd be trying to shock.

Kahaneists? Or "Peace Now" surrender types?

59 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 1:58:54pm

re: #31 Charles

These garments are for sale here: Zarinas.Com: Women's Clothing (Burqas).

Holy crap!!11! *thud*

Is that a gag site? OMG, please, please., please tell me it's not for real.

60 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:00:11pm

re: #59 CuriousLurker
It looks real.

61 Ojoe  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:00:51pm

re: #59 CuriousLurker

≈"Reality is stranger than we can imagine."

— some famous physicist.

62 Lidane  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:01:24pm

re: #57 Charles

That's what I thought. It's not performance art, or an ironic counter-protest. It's just an incoherent teabagger statement about the Seekrit Mooslim Overlord in office or about how they're oppressed in Obama's America. *gag*

63 CarleeCork  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:02:01pm

WTF?

64 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:02:29pm

re: #61 Ojoe

≈"Reality is stranger than we can imagine."

— some famous physicist.

Indeed it is. Sheesh.

65 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:03:22pm

re: #49 Ojoe

I read somewhere that in places where the women have to wear burquas, they get hit by cars more, (as pedestrians) because their peripheral vision is way compromised by their garment.

Not surprised. It doesn't look like you'd get a full range of vision in one of those.

Wonder if there was a similar problem in the days when American women's hats featured those weird little pull-down veil doodads.

Then there's these guys. I have no comment, except, "There's modesty, and then there's asking to end up in a Ukrainian ER."

66 CarleeCork  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:03:53pm

On that note, I'm leaving to make a martini! I declare it cocktail hour.

67 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:04:46pm

re: #66 CarleeCork
L'chaim

68 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:05:08pm

re: #52 Ojoe

In fact Kemal Attaturk specifically promoted western clothing.

I saw a cartoon some time ago which ran in a Turkish newspaper in the 20s. A girl in full yashmak is saying to a girl in a Western flapper outfit, "Look at what you're wearing. Aren't you ashamed?"

The flapper girl replies, "I could ask you the same thing!"

This was reprinted by the author of an article about Turkey in the 2000s, in which he commented that absolutely nothing has changed, except that the modern girl is now wearing jeans.

69 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:05:48pm

re: #60 PhillyPretzel

It looks real.

Yeah, it looks legit. But.... but... the flag burqas... and the camouflage, oh lord the camouflage... I was almost expecting to see a Wonder Woman version next or something.

70 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:06:13pm

re: #58 ClaudeMonet

Kahaneists? Or "Peace Now" surrender types?

Anti-Israel loonies. There's a group among them--young non-Arab women--who like to wear khaffiyehs.

71 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:06:49pm

re: #59 CuriousLurker

Holy crap!!11! *thud*

Is that a gag site? OMG, please, please., please tell me it's not for real.

Want to be a patriot burqa wearer with me for Halloween?

72 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:08:25pm

re: #69 CuriousLurker

Yeah, it looks legit. But... but... the flag burqas... and the camouflage, oh lord the camouflage... I was almost expecting to see a Wonder Woman version next or something.

Oh, I really want a Wonder Woman burqa. I don't know why, I just want one. It's not like I could wear it anywhere.

73 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:08:42pm

re: #71 SanFranciscoZionist

Want to be a patriot burqa wearer with me for Halloween?

Only if I come to Cali. No way am I doing that here! LOL

74 Gus  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:09:07pm

Classy. 5 bucks says they're not Muslims.

75 dr. luba  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:11:57pm

re: #65 SanFranciscoZionist

76 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:13:56pm

re: #65 SanFranciscoZionist

Not surprised. It doesn't look like you'd get a full range of vision in one of those.

Wonder if there was a similar problem in the days when American women's hats featured those weird little pull-down veil doodads.

Then there's these guys. I have no comment, except, "There's modesty, and then there's asking to end up in a Ukrainian ER."

"If thy eyes offend thee, then rip them out"

77 dr. luba  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:14:02pm

Let's try this again.

re: #65 SanFranciscoZionist

Not surprised. It doesn't look like you'd get a full range of vision in one of those.

Wonder if there was a similar problem in the days when American women's hats featured those weird little pull-down veil doodads.

Then there's these guys. I have no comment, except, "There's modesty, and then there's asking to end up in a Ukrainian ER."

ANd the last thing you wan tis to end up in a Ukrainian ER. I know this for a fact.

78 Gus  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:14:44pm

Birthers.

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

79 Gus  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:15:46pm

"Obama's a Muslim, Communist, terrorist" crackpot.

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

80 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:16:08pm

re: #78 Gus 802

Birthers.

[Link: www.flickr.com...]


Wasn't McCain born outside the contintental US as well?

81 Gus  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:16:35pm

re: #80 ralphieboy

Wasn't McCain born outside the contintental US as well?

Panama Canal zone.

82 Lidane  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:17:13pm

re: #78 Gus 802

Birthers.

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

What's worse is they're wearing Texas flag shirts. Gee...where have I seen that before?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

83 reine.de.tout  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:17:17pm

re: #72 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, I really want a Wonder Woman burqa. I don't know why, I just want one. It's not like I could wear it anywhere.

No, no, no, no.
That's Pammie's schtick, the Wonder Woman outfit.
No, no no.

84 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:17:18pm

re: #74 Gus 802

Classy. 5 bucks says they're not Muslims.

Ya' think?

But they actually sell those to Muslim women. I mean who would wear that? Especially the camo one?? Okay, now I'm having visions of Predator-like camo-burqa'd female militia members sneaking through the woods. Brain bleach please!

85 Gus  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:17:47pm

Confusing. This one has a sign that says, "unite to fight the ruling class."

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

Power to the people! //

86 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:18:09pm

re: #78 Gus 802

Birthers.

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

Oh, a Texan. Lovely.

87 Gus  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:18:27pm

re: #84 CuriousLurker

Ya' think?

But they actually sell those to Muslim women. I mean who would wear that? Especially the camo one?? Okay, now I'm having visions of Predator-like camo-burqa'd female militia members sneaking through the woods. Brain bleach please!

Yeah, I saw that. But I'm thinking context. 912 rally so I doubt they're Muslims. Stranger things have happened of course.

88 Gus  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:19:11pm

re: #86 CuriousLurker

Oh, a Texan. Lovely.

They look permanently unhappy.

89 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:19:52pm

re: #83 reine.de.tout

No, no, no, no.
That's Pammie's schtick, the Wonder Woman outfit.
No, no no.

Uh-uh. Pammie gets a big brown paper bag.

90 Gus  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:20:08pm

Democrats and Obama stole teh elecshuns!!11ty

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

91 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:21:40pm

re: #87 Gus 802

Yeah, I saw that. But I'm thinking context. 912 rally so I doubt they're Muslims. Stranger things have happened of course.

Oh, I'm with you on the not Muslim part (forgot the sarc tag). I'm just totally freaked at the idea that there could be a Muslim market for those things.

92 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:21:42pm

Oh heck with it. I'm so not doing the Solano St Stroll today. SFVoice4I will be just fine.

93 Lidane  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:21:53pm

re: #90 Gus 802

Democrats and Obama stole teh elecshuns!!11ty

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

It's hilarious to me that the same people who probably sneered about "Sore Loserman" after the 2000 election are now whining about Obama stealing the 2008 election because he won.

What a bunch of maroons.

94 Gus  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:22:14pm

re: #91 CuriousLurker

Oh, I'm with you on the not Muslim part (forgot the sarc tag). I'm just totally freaked at the idea that there could be a Muslim market for those things.

Oh yeah. Camo? What the?

95 jamesfirecat  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:22:29pm

re: #80 ralphieboy

Wasn't McCain born outside the contintental US as well?

WHY YES!

In fact I do believe some people had to change/clarify a few things to let him run legally in the first place.

(He was born in a US base in Panama as I recall...)

96 reine.de.tout  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:22:30pm

re: #89 CuriousLurker

Uh-uh. Pammie gets a big brown paper bag.

For her bottle?
Oh, for her.
And one for her bottle.
Did you see they had "bottle burqas" at that site?

97 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:23:00pm

re: #57 Charles

Dave Weigel tweeted to me that they were not counter-protesters - they were a big hit, went to the front.

Fancy that. Still, good costume.

98 Winny Spencer  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:23:02pm

re: #90 Gus 802

"Half white and half foreign"? So black = foreign, I guess.

99 Gus  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:23:26pm

re: #93 Lidane

It's hilarious to me that the same people who probably sneered about "Sore Loserman" after the 2000 election are now whining about Obama stealing the 2008 election because he won.

What a bunch of maroons.

Large contingent of fruitloops that think Obama and the Dems stole the election by way of... ACORN!!11ty

100 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:23:36pm

re: #96 reine.de.tout

For her bottle?
Oh, for her.
And one for her bottle.
Did you see they had "bottle burqas" at that site?

Oh, right. I forget she needs a small bag too. LOL

101 Gus  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:23:59pm

re: #98 Winny Spencer

"Half white and half foreign"? So black = foreign, I guess.

Missed that. Sheesh. What a freak.

102 CarleeCork  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:24:53pm

re: #82 Lidane

You can always spot the women from Texas by the big hair.

103 Gus  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:25:25pm

He's a drug store truck driving man...

104 jamesfirecat  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:25:43pm

re: #90 Gus 802

Democrats and Obama stole teh elecshuns!!11ty

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

You know how stupid/crazy we democrats look whenever we argue that Bush stole the election?


Well you look about 10 times as stupid when you do it.

Al Gore lost by 5 votes in the electoral college and 1 in the supreme court.

McCain lost by 192.....

105 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:25:48pm

re: #80 ralphieboy

Wasn't McCain born outside the contintental US as well?

Yes, but that's different!

106 Lidane  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:26:56pm

re: #80 ralphieboy

Wasn't McCain born outside the contintental US as well?

Pfft. He's white and Republican. That was never an issue. =P

107 Sionainn  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:27:16pm

re: #90 Gus 802

Democrats and Obama stole teh elecshuns!!11ty

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

Mark the Patriot drives a truck named "Bubba."

108 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:27:46pm

re: #84 CuriousLurker

Ya' think?

But they actually sell those to Muslim women. I mean who would wear that? Especially the camo one?? Okay, now I'm having visions of Predator-like camo-burqa'd female militia members sneaking through the woods. Brain bleach please!

We now know what a pious Afghan woman wears to go deer hunting.

I was thinking that the national-flag ones might be good for going to soccer games.

109 Lidane  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:28:58pm

re: #104 jamesfirecat

Yes, but McCain lost to a black man with an African name. That clearly means there was a conspiracy to take over Real America. Next thing you know, whitey will be sent to re-education/internment camps while the Seekrit Mooslim in the White House weakens America in his ultimate quest to rule the world.

/teabagger

110 CarleeCork  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:29:05pm

re: #107 Sionainn

Mark the Patriot drives a truck named "Bubba."


That quote on his back window, wasn't that a Bruce Willis movie?

111 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:29:43pm

Barack Hussein Hussein Hussein Hussein Hussein Hussein Hussein Obama

I rest my case

/

112 Gus  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:30:04pm

re: #107 Sionainn

Mark the Patriot drives a truck named "Bubba."

Here's his Facebook page:

[Link: www.facebook.com...]

Same old shit.

113 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:30:34pm

re: #110 CarleeCork

That quote on his back window, wasn't that a Bruce Willis movie?

It was...that dude and his truck look like a mountain full of krayzee.

114 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:31:34pm

re: #108 SanFranciscoZionist

Do they get to wear any sexy clothes? Like in their own bedrooms with their husbands?

That is an entirely serious question...

115 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:32:03pm

re: #80 ralphieboy
John McCain was born on August 29, 1936 at Coco Solo Naval Air Station in the Panama Canal Zone. From Wikipedia.

116 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:32:33pm

re: #115 PhillyPretzel

John McCain was born on August 29, 1936 at Coco Solo Naval Air Station in the Panama Canal Zone. From Wikipedia.

No, silly... from his mother.

117 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:32:37pm

re: #112 Gus 802

Here's his Facebook page:

[Link: www.facebook.com...]

Same old shit.


"if i were president, i would secure the borders asap, expell those who are here illegally, drill our own oil, win the war on drugs, put tougher limits on welfare and handouts, stand firm against all threats to america, cut spending and lower taxes."

Who would not vote for a president who could deliver all that?

118 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:32:50pm

re: #116 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Wikipedia likes to claim everything!

119 Gus  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:33:04pm

I'm starting to recognize some of the same people at these events. They must live nearby DC.

120 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:33:12pm

re: #116 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

LOL

121 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:33:18pm

re: #118 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Wikipedia likes to claim everything!

Does that mean I can sneak in and change his paternity?

122 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:33:46pm

re: #115 PhillyPretzel

John McCain was born on August 29, 1936 at Coco Han Solo Naval Air Station in the Panama Canal Zone. From Wikipedia.

John McCain's behavior as of late aside, this would have been cooler ;-P

123 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:33:58pm

I wear a red, white and blue cape. You fuckers are unAmerican.
/Afternoon Honcos!! My team won!!

124 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:34:20pm

re: #122 talon_262
ROFL

125 Stanghazi  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:34:31pm

re: #112 Gus 802

Here's his Facebook page:

[Link: www.facebook.com...]

Same old shit.

I'm reading too much into this. Seacrets = strip bar. O'Malley's = rival strip bar.

Hey Brother, saw your truck at Seacrets last night. I was hoping you'd hook a chain up to the "O'Malley" sign and drag it down Coastal Highway. Keep fighting the good fight.

126 Lidane  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:34:43pm

re: #117 ralphieboy

"if i were president, i would secure the borders asap, expell those who are here illegally, drill our own oil, win the war on drugs, put tougher limits on welfare and handouts, stand firm against all threats to america, cut spending and lower taxes."

One of these things is not like the other...

You can't do everything else on that list and still expect to cut spending or lower taxes. It just doesn't work that way.

127 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:35:34pm

re: #125 Stanley Sea

I am mad at you, BTW.
/

128 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:36:11pm

re: #114 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Do they get to wear any sexy clothes? Like in their own bedrooms with their husbands?

That is an entirely serious question...

I don't know about the Taliban, but sexy underwear is a big seller in conservative Muslim countries, and ladies must buy it to show to someone...

129 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:37:02pm

re: #128 SanFranciscoZionist

Giggity Giggity!

130 Gus  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:37:23pm

No, no, no, no, no...

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

And don't believe teh librul media!!11ty

//Just Fox News.

131 prairiefire  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:38:00pm

re: #114 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Do they get to wear any sexy clothes? Like in their own bedrooms with their husbands?

That is an entirely serious question...

I read an article in Vanity Fair about Saudi Arabia's idle youth. The girls from wealthy families wore designer clothes and lingerie under their burqas.

I think a pious Muslim woman would also have a healthy and active sex life with her husband.

132 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:38:01pm

re: #128 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know about the Taliban, but sexy underwear is a big seller in conservative Muslim countries, and ladies must buy it to show to someone...

I rarely wear underwear. And when I do it's usually something exciting.
-Bill Murray, Stripes

133 Ojoe  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:38:03pm

re: #65 SanFranciscoZionist

One had better not try to drive a car in any of this stuff, never mind walk in a crosswalk.

134 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:38:44pm

re: #70 SanFranciscoZionist

Anti-Israel loonies. There's a group among them--young non-Arab women--who like to wear khaffiyehs.

Then there are those crazy burqa ladies in Bet Shemesh.

135 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:38:54pm

I would so love to be a fly on the wall when/if some Talibanis see photos of American TP'ers wearing star spangled burqas. Talk about visual dissonance.

Hey, there's an idea! How about if we send our troops swarming into Taliban areas wearing them? It would probably only work once, but I'll bet they could pick off quite a few of them while they were standing around gaping and looking at each other saying "WTF??" in Pashto.

Okay, see what happens when something grabs my imagination? I'll stop now.

136 CarleeCork  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:39:11pm

re: #112 Gus 802

Here's his Facebook page:

[Link: www.facebook.com...]

Same old shit.


If you go look at his pictures there is one of him pissing on someone's Obama bumper sticker. I hope someone catches him doing that. What a putz.

137 Cato the Elder  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:39:14pm

The only way to "win the war on drugs" would be to declare victory and legalize them.

138 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:39:20pm

OT- The Lions got screwed today.

139 prairiefire  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:39:22pm

re: #133 Ojoe

One had better not try to drive a car in any of this stuff, never mind walk in a crosswalk.

In Saudi Arabia, they don't have to worry about that./

140 Gus  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:39:41pm

Weirdo...

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

//OK, they're all weird.

141 jaunte  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:40:16pm

evanmc_s tweets:

That's a wrap. Liberty has been saved, and the president's citizenship status fully questioned. Signing off from 9/12/10
[Link: twitter.com...]

142 Stanghazi  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:40:18pm

re: #127 Cannadian Club Akbar

I am mad at you, BTW.
/

Heh, I did think of you yesterday! We even stayed and watched the Miami fans cry into their beers.

143 Gus  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:40:40pm

re: #136 CarleeCork

If you go look at his pictures there is one of him pissing on someone's Obama bumper sticker. I hope someone catches him doing that. What a putz.

Oh yeah. This one...

[Link: www.facebook.com...]

144 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:40:52pm

re: #126 Lidane

One of these things is not like the other...

You can't do everything else on that list and still expect to cut spending or lower taxes. It just doesn't work that way.


But of course: by expellling all those illegals you would reduce the spending on education and social services, guarantee full employment to all Americans, cutting taxes would encourage even more job creation and higher tax revenues.

I had this all explained to me in a vision.

I want my country back.

/

145 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:40:55pm

re: #108 SanFranciscoZionist

We now know what a pious Afghan woman wears to go deer hunting.

I was thinking that the national-flag ones might be good for going to soccer games.

LOL. Hey, I hadn't thought about the soccer games. Nah, I doubt they'd be allowed out for that. It would be a cool application though!

146 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:40:59pm

re: #131 prairiefire

Oh, of course... but we (the west) might have different definitions...

147 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:41:09pm

re: #134 Alouette

Then there are those crazy burqa ladies in Bet Shemesh.

There's modesty and then there's insanity.

148 Ojoe  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:41:22pm

re: #137 Cato the Elder

Violent types with big weapons have come into my area from far away, to grow dope in the woods. It is not safe to go some places. The stuff needs to be legalized , brought out into the open, and controlled.

149 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:41:37pm

re: #140 Gus 802

GetUpAndDanceFools also has eighteen letters.

150 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:42:06pm

re: #142 Stanley Sea

Heh, I did think of you yesterday! We even stayed and watched the Miami fans cry into their beers.

but Miami won today - so - that was good.

hurrah.

151 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:42:32pm

re: #114 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Do they get to wear any sexy clothes? Like in their own bedrooms with their husbands?

That is an entirely serious question...

Pffft. Yeah! You should see what some women wear.

152 prairiefire  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:42:58pm

re: #146 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I think we might have every definition under the sun!!

153 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:42:59pm

I want all women playing football in thongs while packing heat. Anything else is unAmerican.
/someone had to say it.

154 Sionainn  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:43:07pm

re: #143 Gus 802

Oh yeah. This one...

[Link: www.facebook.com...]

The crazy thing is that this guy has his address posted.

155 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:43:21pm

re: #151 CuriousLurker

The burka's just became irrelevant (at least in my dirty old mind)...

156 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:43:25pm

re: #147 SanFranciscoZionist

There's modesty and then there's insanity.

I have some nice hats and tichels at the Zionist Mall. But no burqas.

157 prairiefire  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:44:02pm

re: #146 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh, of course... but we (the west) might have different definitions...

There's stuff going on I'm still finding out about. "They do whaa...?"

158 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:44:22pm

re: #145 CuriousLurker

LOL. Hey, I hadn't thought about the soccer games. Nah, I doubt they'd be allowed out for that. It would be a cool application though!

That's what baffles me. Who's wearing these? I worked with some pretty pious Afghan families in Alameda. The women veiled, but no one wears a burqa in California. It's pretty rare in Europe as well. So the burqa market is, I assume, basically women in Afghanistan, and maybe some ladies elsewhere wear them to their mosque or something.

So who is buying these oddball things, aside from Tea Partiers? They seem too--goofy--for public wear in a place where covering up is taken seriously.

159 CarleeCork  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:44:27pm

re: #154 Sionainn

The crazy thing is that this guy has his address posted.


Yeah, I know. : )

160 Gus  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:44:58pm

re: #154 Sionainn

The crazy thing is that this guy has his address posted.

I noticed. Probably wants some nut to go to his house. Or something.

161 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:45:29pm

Burka Blue.

Youtube Video
162 Nimed  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:45:29pm

re: #122 talon_262

John McCain's behavior as of late aside, this would have been cooler ;-P

I wish Han Solo had run for President instead of McCain. In case people wanted a maverick, he would definitely fit the description. Most importantly, Chewbacca would make a far superior VP pick.

163 CarleeCork  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:46:00pm

re: #160 Gus 802
Yeah, then he could be famous like joe the non-plumber.

164 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:46:22pm

re: #143 Gus 802

Oh yeah. This one...

[Link: www.facebook.com...]

The asshole needs to get OUT OF MY STATE!

165 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:46:36pm

hullo...what's the buzz?

166 Gus  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:47:14pm

re: #165 PT Barnum

hullo...what's the buzz?

Fabric patterns and prints.

/

167 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:47:16pm

re: #165 PT Barnum

hullo...what's the buzz?

Jews of both genders are veiling, and Afghan ladies are wearing hot pink burqas to hunt deer.

168 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:48:03pm

re: #158 SanFranciscoZionist

That's what baffles me. Who's wearing these? I worked with some pretty pious Afghan families in Alameda. The women veiled, but no one wears a burqa in California. It's pretty rare in Europe as well. So the burqa market is, I assume, basically women in Afghanistan, and maybe some ladies elsewhere wear them to their mosque or something.

So who is buying these oddball things, aside from Tea Partiers? They seem too--goofy--for public wear in a place where covering up is taken seriously.

Yeah, they're just wayyyyy too zany. I can see the solid colored ones, but the others? How about the daish one with the big white cross on it? I mean, seriously? That's why I thought it was a gag site at first.

169 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:48:05pm

re: #162 Nimed

170 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:48:06pm

re: #167 SanFranciscoZionist
ROFL

171 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:48:18pm

re: #167 SanFranciscoZionist

hot pink burqas

I like my burqas medium with pickles and onions.

172 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:49:16pm

re: #165 PT Barnum

hullo...what's the buzz?

My youngest brother got free shots last night. He puked like 4 times. Heh.

173 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:49:25pm

re: #171 PT Barnum

I like my burqas medium with pickles and onions.

is a rare burqa even halal?

174 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:49:45pm

re: #172 Cannadian Club Akbar

My youngest brother got free shots last night. He puked like 4 times. Heh.

where'd he get shot?

175 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:50:27pm

re: #174 PT Barnum

where'd he get shot?

Florida.
/

176 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:50:59pm

re: #162 Nimed

I wish Han Solo had run for President instead of McCain. In case people wanted a maverick, he would definitely fit the description. Most importantly, Chewbacca would make a far superior VP pick.

I would have been totally down for a Solo/Chewbacca ticket...

177 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:52:34pm

re: #176 talon_262

I would have been totally down for a Solo/Chewbacca ticket...

A Layla/Yoda ticket would gather indies.

178 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:53:19pm

re: #162 Nimed

Dammit.

What I said was I'll vote for Chewie-- Hell, I want him at the top of the ticket. But I'll shove the Star Forge up my ass before I vote for an Ewok.

179 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:53:25pm

Dude for the Packers just hit a 56 yard field goal.

180 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:53:40pm

re: #177 Cannadian Club Akbar

A Layla/Yoda ticket would gather indies.

Leia, you mean? In any case, I could see the appeal of a Leia/Yoda ticket...

181 Gus  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:53:41pm

So how many people showed up to the 912 rally?

3 million?

//

182 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:55:03pm

re: #168 CuriousLurker

Yeah, they're just wayyy too zany. I can see the solid colored ones, but the others? How about the daish one with the big white cross on it? I mean, seriously? That's why I thought it was a gag site at first.

Yeah. The giant cross across your whole body? Uh?

183 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:55:11pm

re: #180 talon_262

Leia, you mean? In any case, I could see the appeal of a Leia/Yoda ticket...

But she has to give the SOTU speech in the golden bikini.

184 ClaudeMonet  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:55:34pm

re: #143 Gus 802

Oh yeah. This one...

[Link: www.facebook.com...]

If someone pees on my bumper sticker, they had better be ready when I back up very suddenly.

re: #103 Gus 802

He's a drug store truck driving man...

...he's the head of the Ku Klux Klan...

185 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:56:01pm

re: #181 Gus 802

So how many people showed up to the 912 rally?

3 million?

//

Eleventy bazzillion!!!

186 Gus  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:56:05pm

re: #184 ClaudeMonet

If someone pees on my bumper sticker, they had better be ready when I back up very suddenly.

re: #103 Gus 802

...he's the head of the Ku Klux Klan...

...when summer comes rolling around...

187 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:56:09pm

re: #180 talon_262

Yoda was blind to the threat that Anakin posed. Did Yoda save the youngings? No! We need strong leadership for the future. We need men who have been to the dark side and back again.

Vote Revan/Jedi Exile in 2012.

188 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:56:40pm

re: #183 Cannadian Club Akbar

But she has to give the SOTU speech in the golden bikini.

Carrie Fisher in her prime in that outfit...man, having naughty thoughts right now.

/grrrrrowlll

189 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:57:28pm

re: #186 Gus 802

...when summer comes rolling around...

what are you saying about Summer and is she here to defend herself......???


/

190 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:58:38pm

re: #188 talon_262

Carrie Fisher in her prime in that outfit...man, having naughty thoughts right now.

/grrrowlll

If you need a minute, take it. (pull fast!!)
///I'm funny

191 Winny Spencer  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:58:48pm

re: #187 Obdicut

Yoda was blind to the threat that Anakin posed. Did Yoda save the youngings? No! We need strong leadership for the future. We need men who have been to the dark side and back again.

Vote Revan/Jedi Exile in 2012.

Word. Great game(s).

192 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 2:59:27pm

Here's a video from the sign-making party the previous night; those weren't Muslims inside those burqas.

Youtube Video
193 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:00:57pm

re: #192 Charles

Here's a video from the sign-making party the previous night; those weren't Muslims inside those burqas.


[Video]

OMG!! It was Elvis!!
/

194 Cato the Elder  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:00:58pm

Has anyone designed a see-through burka yet?

My kind of mockery.

195 Gus  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:01:12pm

re: #192 Charles

Here's a video from the sign-making party the previous night; those weren't Muslims inside those burqas.

[Video]

There ya' go. Guess they can't complain next time they see the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence.

196 CarleeCork  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:01:17pm

I'm outa here for now, too much testosterone floating around. Later....

197 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:02:12pm

re: #187 Obdicut

Yoda was blind to the threat that Anakin posed. Did Yoda save the youngings? No! We need strong leadership for the future. We need men who have been to the dark side and back again.

Vote Revan/Jedi Exile in 2012.

Image: ihasafunny-terrorists.jpg

198 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:02:45pm

bbiam.

199 ClaudeMonet  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:02:57pm

re: #156 Alouette

I have some nice hats and tichels at the Zionist Mall. But no burqas.

Ooh, a baseball kippah! I may order one of those!

200 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:03:09pm

re: #190 Cannadian Club Akbar

If you need a minute, take it. (pull fast!!)
///I'm funny

Unfortunately, I'm at work...

;-P

201 ClaudeMonet  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:04:45pm

re: #193 Cannadian Club Akbar

OMG!! It was Elvis!!
/

Judge Crater and Jimmy Hoffa.

202 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:05:43pm

re: #197 wozzablog

ugh.


better link

[Link: www.ihasafunny.com...]

203 ClaudeMonet  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:06:07pm

re: #194 Cato the Elder

Has anyone designed a see-through burka yet?

My kind of mockery.

Now THAT is a real philosophical clusterf**k.

I can't stop chuckling, either. Nicely done, Cato.

204 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:06:26pm

re: #85 Gus 802

Confusing. This one has a sign that says, "unite to fight the ruling class."

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

Power to the people! //

I wonder if someone told him that's the kind of slogan Rage Against the Machine would use.

205 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:07:42pm

re: #179 Cannadian Club Akbar

Dude for the Packers just hit a 56 yard field goal.

Whoa. 23 yard run by Michael Vick.

206 windsagio  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:08:27pm

re: #203 ClaudeMonet

Not sure what this pic means, but...
A see-through veil and some other kind of statement.

207 austin_blue  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:09:17pm

Good OpEd:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

208 Gus  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:09:30pm

re: #204 Dark_Falcon

I wonder if someone told him that's the kind of slogan Rage Against the Machine would use.

Right. It's pretty much a leftist slogan. I'm sure they've redefined it to only include the political ruling class. Ruling class in it's traditional sense includes the economic elites which controls who's placed in political power, etc. And yes, that's Marx in the Wiki link.

209 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:09:52pm

re: #206 windsagio

Not sure what this pic means, but...
A see-through veil and some other kind of statement.

Can we get a front on shot of the lady on the right?

/Sorry, I'm a guy.

210 Stanghazi  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:10:31pm

re: #206 windsagio

Not sure what this pic means, but...
A see-through veil and some other kind of statement.

A very interesting fashion show.

211 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:10:57pm

And now for something completely different...

Youtube Video
212 windsagio  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:11:43pm

re: #207 austin_blue

Hell of an article indeed.

>.. really, the New Republic? >>

213 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:12:30pm

re: #208 Gus 802

Right. It's pretty much a leftist slogan. I'm sure they've redefined it to only include the political ruling class. Ruling class in it's traditional sense includes the economic elites which controls who's placed in political power, etc. And yes, that's Marx in the Wiki link.

It's perfectly acceptable to have picture of Karl Marx in an entry on 'the ruling class'. He wrote about the concept quite a bit. A lot of what he wrote wasn't correct, but he did fully flesh out his ideas on that subject.

214 reine.de.tout  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:12:48pm

re: #212 windsagio

Hell of an article indeed.

>.. really, the New Republic? >>

CuriousLurker posted a page about that last week.

215 Gus  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:13:42pm

re: #208 Gus 802

Right. It's pretty much a leftist slogan. I'm sure they've redefined it to only include the political ruling class. Ruling class in it's traditional sense includes the economic elites which controls who's placed in political power, etc. And yes, that's Marx in the Wiki link.

More. So yeah, "unite to fight the ruling class." Sure thing. 912DC is organized by Freedomworks:

[Link: www.sourcewatch.org...]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

FreedomWorks and Americans for Prosperity both originated from a campaign called Citizens for a Sound Economy, which split in two in 2004. CSE was set up by businessman David Koch (Koch Industries), who has also promoted liberty and research organizations (Cato Institute and Reason Foundation). Citizens for a Sound Economy (grassroots machine) merged with Empower America (policy expertise) in 2004 and was renamed FreedomWorks, with Dick Armey, Jack Kemp and C. Boyden Gray serving as co-chairmen, Bill Bennett focusing on school choice as a Senior Fellow, and Matt Kibbe as President and CEO. Empower America was founded in 1993 by William Bennett, former Secretary of HUD Jack Kemp, former Ambassador Jeane J. Kirkpatrick, and former Representative Vin Weber. In December 2006, Steve Forbes joined the board of directors.

FreedomWorks is primarily funded by individual donations. According to the media watchdog group Media Matters for America, FreedomWorks has also received funding from Verizon and SBC (now AT&T). Other FreedomWorks funders have included Philip Morris and foundations controlled by the conservative Scaife family, according to tax filings and other records. It also receives funding through the sale of insurance policies through which policyholders automatically become members of FreedomWorks.

FreedomWorks is closely tied to its founder, corporate lobbyist and former Republican Congressman Dick Armey, whose former lobbying firm DLA Piper that he resigned in August 2009, represents Bristol Myers Squibb, among other pharmaceutical companies.

Astroturfing people is easy.

216 windsagio  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:14:30pm

re: #214 reine.de.tout

Missed that >>

Haven't been around much lately, too depressing :P

217 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:17:43pm

re: #216 windsagio

Missed that >>

Haven't been around much lately, too depressing :P

It's depressing all right. I've been down in the dumps politically ever since I read that horrid Scott Wheeler column I posted on the pages. Seeing some just freely spewing that kind of hate is intensely depressing.

218 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:18:15pm

There was a big fire at the apartment complex next to mine just before 8:00am. The fire engines are just now leaving, 10 hours later. That's one tough job those firefighters have.

100 people now have the REAL PROBLEM of being homeless and have been evacuated to the high school down the street. Where will they go when school starts tomorrow? Life is cruel.

People need to be a little more thankful for what they have instead of demonstrating & whining over non-existent injustices. Ditto for those stupid women playing games with their burqas. There are Afghani women who are truly oppressed & suffering. It's not effin' giggly make-believe for them.

I'm truly running out of patience with these people.

219 Cato the Elder  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:20:31pm

So it's my impression that Geller's little hatefest was something of a flop.

Any major summaries in the NY media today?

220 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:21:09pm

My bronchitis is beginning to clear up... but I sound like an unfiltered Camel smoking 80 year old woman when I laugh...

I have absolutely disgusted my wife over the past few days.

The sound of two table-spoons of phlegm hacking up out of my lungs every fifteen minutes or so does very little to make her want my body...

221 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:22:16pm

re: #218 CuriousLurker

You are very close to earning "Most Favored Lizard" status...

222 brookly red  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:22:39pm

re: #220 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My bronchitis is beginning to clear up... but I sound like an unfiltered Camel smoking 80 year old woman when I laugh...

I have absolutely disgusted my wife over the past few days.

The sound of two table-spoons of phlegm hacking up out of my lungs every fifteen minutes or so does very little to make her want my body...

be glad... it does not seem that you are up to the task. rest & heal.

223 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:23:19pm

re: #221 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You are very close to earning "Most Favored Lizard" status...

Can i have that status too? I've got Key Lime Pie!

224 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:23:30pm

re: #158 SanFranciscoZionist

That's what baffles me. Who's wearing these? I worked with some pretty pious Afghan families in Alameda. The women veiled, but no one wears a burqa in California. It's pretty rare in Europe as well. So the burqa market is, I assume, basically women in Afghanistan, and maybe some ladies elsewhere wear them to their mosque or something.

So who is buying these oddball things, aside from Tea Partiers? They seem too--goofy--for public wear in a place where covering up is taken seriously.

I once, just once, saw a burqa - and I'm talking the full gear, from head to toe in downtown San Francisco. She was using a cell phone, however. I know this will sound culturally insensitive, but the whole outfit struck me as ridiculous. She wants to cover up, fine, by all means, eat, live and breathe your religion; no hostility from me. I just don't get it.

225 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:23:45pm

re: #219 Cato the Elder

So it's my impression that Geller's little hatefest was something of a flop.

Any major summaries in the NY media today?

We can only hope they ignored her creepy ass...

226 Gus  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:24:21pm

Back to the store and back later.

227 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:25:19pm

re: #223 Dark_Falcon

Can i have that status too? I've got Key Lime Pie!

I have Pie Day every week!

228 brookly red  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:26:03pm

re: #227 Alouette

I have Pie Day every week!

is that what you kids call it these days...

229 Lidane  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:26:20pm

re: #218 CuriousLurker

Ditto for those stupid women playing games with their burqas. There are Afghani women who are truly oppressed & suffering. It's not effin' giggly make-believe for them.

Seriously. The burqa isn't a joke, and for those idiots to treat it like one to try and make some kind of incoherent complaint about Obama is offensive. The women who are forced to wear the burqa in Afghanistan and parts of Pakistan aren't doing it to be ironic or cute. They're doing it because if they don't, fanatics will attack or kill them. It's a matter of personal safety.

I'm truly running out of patience with these people.

I ran out of patience with them a long time ago. It's why I honestly don't care if someone's feelings are hurt if I use the word teabagger. That giggly video says all I need to know about these jerks, so catering to their feelings by calling them tea partiers or whatever isn't going to happen.

230 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:26:50pm

re: #227 Alouette

I have Pie Day every week!

So, is it pie-thirty yet?

231 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:27:25pm

What a play by Michael Vick! He avoids the blitz and runs for 31 yards.

232 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:27:39pm

re: #227 Alouette

I have Pie Day every week!

Speaking of pies, I just made my favorite pie from scratch last week with help from my gf: BANANA CREAM PIE! Okay, not the best food for a borderline diabetic (me) but easy to make, tasty and a lovely dessert.

233 reine.de.tout  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:28:01pm

re: #227 Alouette

I have Pie Day every week!

Yes, but do you invite FBV to share?

234 brookly red  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:28:31pm

re: #233 reine.de.tout

Yes, but do you invite FBV to share?

kinky...

235 prairiefire  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:28:42pm

re: #232 eclectic infidel

I Love banana cream pie. A diner by my house makes it with a walnut crust.

236 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:31:04pm

re: #224 eclectic infidel

I once, just once, saw a burqa - and I'm talking the full gear, from head to toe in downtown San Francisco. She was using a cell phone, however. I know this will sound culturally insensitive, but the whole outfit struck me as ridiculous. She wants to cover up, fine, by all means, eat, live and breathe your religion; no hostility from me. I just don't get it.

I've never actually seen anyone in a burqa. Lots of niqabis around here, but no burqas. Heh, one time back in Texas I saw a young Saudi woman in a red Corvette convertible with the top down, tearing down the street with one hand on the stick shift and her scarf & niqab trailing behind her in the wind. She seemed to be having grand old time and I got a huge kick out of watching her fly past.

237 prairiefire  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:31:19pm

re: #220 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My bronchitis is beginning to clear up... but I sound like an unfiltered Camel smoking 80 year old woman when I laugh...

I have absolutely disgusted my wife over the past few days.

The sound of two table-spoons of phlegm hacking up out of my lungs every fifteen minutes or so does very little to make her want my body...

Remember how sad it was on "Night Court" when the little old ladies they hired to play the smoky voiced old lady kept dying from lung cancer?

238 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:32:27pm

Touchdown, Eagles. Come on, Philly! If they beat the Packers, the Bears will be the only NFC Central team with a win this week.

239 austin_blue  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:32:50pm

re: #224 eclectic infidel

I once, just once, saw a burqa - and I'm talking the full gear, from head to toe in downtown San Francisco. She was using a cell phone, however. I know this will sound culturally insensitive, but the whole outfit struck me as ridiculous. She wants to cover up, fine, by all means, eat, live and breathe your religion; no hostility from me. I just don't get it.

Everyone has their extremes. Some Baptists outlaw dancing. And upright lovemaking (because it looks too *much* like dancin'). Hell, my mom in the early 60's wore a head scarf to Mass every Sunday. It's what was *done*. So I've got no probs with Hijab, the head scarf. I've got a problem with Burqa because I want some semblance of humanity in the public sphere.

240 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:33:01pm

re: #238 Dark_Falcon
Go Eagles.

241 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:33:13pm

re: #232 eclectic infidel
re: #235 prairiefire
re: #233 reine.de.tout


I shouldn't even bother putting on pants before I get on here.

242 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:34:15pm

re: #229 Lidane

Too bad I don't live in Texas anymore. We could team up and start kicking ass and taking names.

243 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:34:22pm

Eagles trying to run out of players before this game finishes.

244 reine.de.tout  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:34:27pm

re: #239 austin_blue

Everyone has their extremes. Some Baptists outlaw dancing. And upright lovemaking (because it looks too *much* like dancin'). Hell, my mom in the early 60's wore a head scarf to Mass every Sunday. It's what was *done*. So I've got no probs with Hijab, the head scarf. I've got a problem with Burqa because I want some semblance of humanity in the public sphere.

And I would expect it's hotter'n hell inside a burqa; I would pass out.

245 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:35:31pm

re: #244 reine.de.tout

You are hawter than hell in anything you wear...

246 Cato the Elder  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:35:35pm

re: #231 Dark_Falcon

What a play by Michael Vick! He avoids the blitz and runs for 31 yards.

Yeah, watta role model.

Fuck him, his team, the fans and the NFL.

247 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:35:41pm

re: #243 oaktree
LOL

248 reine.de.tout  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:35:50pm

That weekly Pie Day is a really nice thing to do for your family.

I'm thinking I ought to do something like that . . .
If I make a pie, then mebbe they'll quit complaining about, then eating all of, my biscuits.

249 reine.de.tout  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:36:25pm

re: #245 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You are hawter than hell in anything you wear...

hah!
Flattery is always welcome!
Anytime . . .

250 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:36:38pm

re: #236 CuriousLurker

I've never actually seen anyone in a burqa. Lots of niqabis around here, but no burqas. Heh, one time back in Texas I saw a young Saudi woman in a red Corvette convertible with the top down, tearing down the street with one hand on the stick shift and her scarf & niqab trailing behind her in the wind. She seemed to be having grand old time and I got a huge kick out of watching her fly past.

That must have been a sight. I once saw a woman with a headscarf on, completely covering her hair BUT...she had short shorts on (they fit her well though, they weren't smutty looking by any means), with sandals that laced up the ankle (sort of Romanesque) and a cute but modest ss top. In Trader Joe's in Oakland, CA.

251 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:36:49pm

re: #248 reine.de.tout

That weekly Pie Day is a really nice thing to do for your family.

I'm thinking I ought to do something like that . . .
If I make a pie, then mebbe they'll quit complaining about, then eating all of, my biscuits.

any biscuits going spare today?............. ;-)

252 palomino  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:38:02pm

re: #5 Lidane

Just once I'd like for these idiots to explain to me exactly which freedoms they've lost in the last 20 months since Obama has been president.

The freedom to not have to live in a country with a secret Muslim president. And he's black.

253 reine.de.tout  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:38:46pm

re: #251 wozzablog

any biscuits going spare today?... ;-)

heh.

I made eight earlier; I now have five, and no one owns up to eating any.
Because they're either too well done for one taste, and not well done enough for another taste.
I think they're perfect.
And I might let you have one.

254 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:38:49pm

re: #239 austin_blue

Everyone has their extremes. Some Baptists outlaw dancing. And upright lovemaking (because it looks too *much* like dancin'). Hell, my mom in the early 60's wore a head scarf to Mass every Sunday. It's what was *done*. So I've got no probs with Hijab, the head scarf. I've got a problem with Burqa because I want some semblance of humanity in the public sphere.

Agreed. I fully accept the hijab as a statement of faith and modesty, but the full face covering of the burqa is unacceptable. Laws prohibiting the wearing of masks should be enforced or enacted to prohibit it. It does not have a place in this country.

255 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:38:55pm

re: #239 austin_blue

Everyone has their extremes. Some Baptists outlaw dancing. And upright lovemaking (because it looks too *much* like dancin'). Hell, my mom in the early 60's wore a head scarf to Mass every Sunday. It's what was *done*. So I've got no probs with Hijab, the head scarf. I've got a problem with Burqa because I want some semblance of humanity in the public sphere.

I used to have a hard time with it too, but I've kinda gotten used to seeing it now. Plus, being a woman they'll greet me and make eye contact—not likely to happen with a man. Most of them wear it because they want to, though I imagine there are some from overseas who may not.

256 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:39:05pm

re: #246 Cato the Elder

Parts of me feel the same way, but I do love the game.

I have a difficult time, even though he has paid his due to society rooting for Vick.

But, how is redemption possible when it is not allowed?

257 Lidane  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:39:22pm

re: #224 eclectic infidel

I once, just once, saw a burqa - and I'm talking the full gear, from head to toe in downtown San Francisco. She was using a cell phone, however. I know this will sound culturally insensitive, but the whole outfit struck me as ridiculous. She wants to cover up, fine, by all means, eat, live and breathe your religion; no hostility from me. I just don't get it.

I saw a woman in a niqab at my dentist's office once. The only thing you could see were her eyes. She had her husband with her, and he accompanied his wife back to the exam room. I even remember the dental hygienist having to ask his permission to clean her teeth and to see her face. The dentist, who was male, had to ask for permission as well, if I remember right.

I'd never actually seen that in person before. The Muslim women I knew wore the hijab, but you could see their faces. It was different seeing a niqab. I didn't expect it at all.

258 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:39:54pm

re: #255 CuriousLurker

I used to have a hard time with it too, but I've kinda gotten used to seeing it now. Plus, being a woman they'll greet me and make eye contact—not likely to happen with a man. Most of them wear it because they want to, though I imagine there are some from overseas who may not.

P.S. I'm referring to the niqab (face covering), not the burqa.

259 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:40:01pm

re: #253 reine.de.tout

heh.

I made eight earlier; I now have five, and no one owns up to eating any.
Because they're either too well done for one taste, and not well done enough for another taste.
I think they're perfect.
And I might let you have one.

Thank you kindly ma'am :-)

i will never criticise your biscuits. ever.

260 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:40:40pm

re: #258 CuriousLurker

Wait! You're a woman? Thought you were a dude!

261 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:40:41pm

re: #244 reine.de.tout

And I would expect it's hotter'n hell inside a burqa; I would pass out.

Yeah, the shiny material looks like it would be wicked hot.

262 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:41:01pm

re: #257 Lidane

Yeah - it was startling to see a woman completely covered like that.

263 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:41:08pm

re: #246 Cato the Elder

Yeah, watta role model.

Fuck him, his team, the fans and the NFL.

He's an asshole, but he might be able to get me something I want, and so I'll overlook that fact this week.

264 austin_blue  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:41:44pm

re: #244 reine.de.tout

And I would expect it's hotter'n hell inside a burqa; I would pass out.

Can you imagine? I see them in Austin occasionally. There are I am, in Central Market, (local grocer HEBs answer to Whole Paycheck) and there is something in a baggie squeezing the melons,. He/She/It is shopping there because most of the food is Halal, but mercy, it could be R2DTwo in there.

I know I should be more accommodating to people (I am a Texas Lib'rul, after all) but Burqa is a bit much, even for me.

265 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:41:53pm

re: #250 eclectic infidel

That must have been a sight. I once saw a woman with a headscarf on, completely covering her hair BUT...she had short shorts on (they fit her well though, they weren't smutty looking by any means), with sandals that laced up the ankle (sort of Romanesque) and a cute but modest ss top. In Trader Joe's in Oakland, CA.

LOL *headdesk*

266 Kronocide  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:42:03pm

re: #207 austin_blue

That was a good oped. Kristoff did really well.

267 Cato the Elder  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:42:19pm

re: #256 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

They could have offered him a job as a ticket seller at $20 k a year instead of his old job back.

268 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:43:45pm

re: #265 CuriousLurker

LOL *headdesk*

Had I had more guts, I may have tried to strike up a conversation with her. She was definitely of some middle eastern ethnicity. Suffice to say I find darker women gorgeous as a general rule.

269 Mr Pancakes  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:44:17pm

re: #256 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Parts of me feel the same way, but I do love the game.

I have a difficult time, even though he has paid his due to society rooting for Vick.

But, how is redemption possible when it is not allowed?

I love the game too.... but redemption for Vick would've been not being allowed back into the NFL and pumping out septic tanks instead.

270 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:44:53pm

re: #269 Mr Pancakes

Go get your copy of the constitution...

271 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:45:19pm

re: #254 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. I fully accept the hijab as a statement of faith and modesty, but the full face covering of the burqa is unacceptable. Laws prohibiting the wearing of masks should be enforced or enacted to prohibit it. It does not have a place in this country.

So you'd outlaw Halloween, ski masks, etc? Sorry, but whatever someone wants to wear has a "place" in this country as long as it's not lewd or posing a danger to anyone.

272 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:46:38pm

re: #270 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Crap! I didn't capitalize Constitution.

Regrets.

273 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:47:39pm

re: #257 Lidane

I saw a woman in a niqab at my dentist's office once. The only thing you could see were her eyes. She had her husband with her, and he accompanied his wife back to the exam room. I even remember the dental hygienist having to ask his permission to clean her teeth and to see her face. The dentist, who was male, had to ask for permission as well, if I remember right.

I'd never actually seen that in person before. The Muslim women I knew wore the hijab, but you could see their faces. It was different seeing a niqab. I didn't expect it at all.

I wonder why the hell she didn't simply go to a female dentist and avoid all that? Ugh.

274 reine.de.tout  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:47:52pm

re: #264 austin_blue

Can you imagine? I see them in Austin occasionally. There are I am, in Central Market, (local grocer HEBs answer to Whole Paycheck) and there is something in a baggie squeezing the melons,. He/She/It is shopping there because most of the food is Halal, but mercy, it could be R2DTwo in there.

I know I should be more accommodating to people (I am a Texas Lib'rul, after all) but Burqa is a bit much, even for me.

I haven't seen any burqas here. I see a lot of head coverings with regular jeans or whatever; every now and then I see a long black garment with head covering, but the face isn't covered. I hardly ever see a face covering.

275 austin_blue  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:48:15pm

re: #246 Cato the Elder

Yeah, watta role model.

Fuck him, his team, the fans and the NFL.

Now now. Then again, I feel the same way about bow-hunting, but don't condemn it's fans.

(Admission: Been there, done that, shot the doe, followed her for a 1/4 mile through the tag alders, watched her die, threw up (I was covered in blood from armpits to boot soles), gutted her, dragged her back to car, and butchered her for the freezer. I still haver her tanned cape. Never again. It's a barbaric way to hunt for meat. She died slooooow.)

276 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:48:25pm

re: #260 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Yep, I'm a woman.

277 researchok  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:49:12pm

The issue of hijab/niqab/burqa is not simple.

Some women say it is about choice.

Some imams refer to women who choose not to wear a head covering as 'uncovered meat'.

Some religious authorities believe women are purely sexual objects and if they are no 'covered' they are to blame for whatever happens to the.

Historically, hijab is a recent innovation.

Ayaan Hirsi Al is under death threats for her opinions, including those that demand women be allowed a choice.

In the banlieues of Paris, girls who choose not to wear a hijab are u8nder threat of assault and sexual assault.

Fathers have been known to force their children to wear coverings under threat of violence- threats that have more than once been carried out.

This is not simple.

278 Cato the Elder  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:49:49pm

re: #270 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Go get your copy of the constitution...

Yeah, because convicted felons normally get their million-dollar jobs back like that. Fuck Vick.

279 b_Snark  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:49:53pm

re: #254 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. I fully accept the hijab as a statement of faith and modesty, but the full face covering of the burqa is unacceptable. Laws prohibiting the wearing of masks should be enforced or enacted to prohibit it. It does not have a place in this country.

Down with Halloween.

280 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:50:08pm

re: #276 CuriousLurker

Yep, I'm a woman.

So are you saying that you use the head covering , the face covering, or both? And for a followup question: does the use of the face covering automatically mean that the head will be covered as well?

281 prairiefire  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:51:01pm

re: #258 CuriousLurker

P.S. I'm referring to the niqab (face covering), not the burqa.

You know which one I have a bit of hard time with, is the full covering the ladies from Indonesia wear when they march during the Hajj. I think it is my own discomfort, I'm sure. It seems dehumanizing to my Western eyes, but I would think there are many of those women who are proud to do it.

282 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:52:02pm

re: #280 eclectic infidel

So are you saying that you use the head covering , the face covering, or both? And for a followup question: does the use of the face covering automatically mean that the head will be covered as well?

I cover my hair, but not my face. I wear off the rack long skirts and long sleeved tops. Yep, if the face is covered, the hair being covered would follow.

283 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:52:22pm

re: #278 Cato the Elder

Well... since I hate the Eagles with a passion...

284 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:53:38pm

re: #271 CuriousLurker

So you'd outlaw Halloween, ski masks, etc? Sorry, but whatever someone wants to wear has a "place" in this country as long as it's not lewd or posing a danger to anyone.

Existing mask laws already have an exception for Halloween and sports. And anti-danger laws can cover banning the burqa as a security measure. It's a fig leaf but a needed one.

285 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:53:56pm

re: #237 prairiefire

Remember how sad it was on "Night Court" when the little old ladies they hired to play the smoky voiced old lady kept dying from lung cancer?

Loved the old lady bailiffs, but Roz and Bull were a team. By the way, I was not aware that Brent Spiner (Data on ST:TNG) played the recurring down-on-his-luck character Bob Wheeler on the show...you learn new stuff every day.

286 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:54:14pm

re: #282 CuriousLurker

IIRC, you are a convert... born in U.S.?

Please shut me down if I get too personal.

287 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:55:05pm

re: #282 CuriousLurker

I cover my hair, but not my face. I wear off the rack long skirts and long sleeved tops. Yep, if the face is covered, the hair being covered would follow.

Ok. Just wondering. I've noticed that some Orthodox Jewish women also dress in a similar fashion to you.

288 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:55:12pm

re: #283 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Well... since I hate the Eagles with a passion...

I'm not a fan of them, but I live in Chicago so I favor the team playing the Packers because I want Green Bay to lose.

289 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:55:14pm

re: #281 prairiefire

You know which one I have a bit of hard time with, is the full covering the ladies from Indonesia wear when they march during the Hajj. I think it is my own discomfort, I'm sure. It seems dehumanizing to my Western eyes, but I would think there are many of those women who are proud to do it.

Face covering is forbidden when actually performing the Hajj. It's supposed to be very simple fabric for symbolic reasons.

290 austin_blue  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:56:26pm

re: #289 CuriousLurker

Face covering is forbidden when actually performing the Hajj. It's supposed to be very simple fabric for symbolic reasons.

Like a bridal veil?

291 prairiefire  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:57:26pm

re: #289 CuriousLurker

What is the name of the ceremony where the different nations march, or parade? it seemed like it was during Hajj.

292 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 3:57:33pm

re: #284 Dark_Falcon

Existing mask laws already have an exception for Halloween and sports. And anti-danger laws can cover banning the burqa as a security measure. It's a fig leaf but a needed one.

I'm never going to agree with you on this. We don't mandate dress because some people are uncomfortable with it. Period. If we did that it would open a huge can of worms.

293 researchok  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:00:08pm

re: #292 CuriousLurker

I'm never going to agree with you on this. We don't mandate dress because some people are uncomfortable with it. Period. If we did that it would open a huge can of worms.

I think it is already a can or worms.

If it were always about choice, I'd agree with you 100%.

As I noted above, how about when then there really is no choice?

294 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:00:17pm

re: #290 austin_blue

Like a bridal veil?

Women just wear regular hijab during hajj: loose simple garment, with only hands, face and feet exposed (nothing fancy because you're supposed to be humble when you perform the rites).

295 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:01:55pm

re: #292 CuriousLurker

I'm never going to agree with you on this. We don't mandate dress because some people are uncomfortable with it. Period. If we did that it would open a huge can of worms.

Fine, then we don't agree. I'm convinced public security law will fit to ban the niqab and burqa and it should be so done. It will take a choice away, but I feel it must be done. Read the article I posted, and you'll understand my reasoning.

296 Cato the Elder  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:02:21pm

re: #275 austin_blue

You watched her die, slowly? No coup de grâce will knife, pistol or another arrow? Something sounds wrong about that. Not how I was taught to hunt. Are the rules different in bow season?

297 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:03:37pm

Oy, I'm having trouble keeping up.

298 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:03:54pm

re: #295 Dark_Falcon

Fine, then we don't agree. I'm convinced public security law will fit to ban the niqab and burqa and it should be so done. It will take a choice away, but I feel it must be done. Read the article I posted, and you'll understand my reasoning.

Will such a law also apply to Nuns who wear the habit or are they exempt because they're Catholic?

299 researchok  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:04:04pm

re: #297 CuriousLurker

Oy, I'm having trouble keeping up.

Welcome to my world.

300 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:06:22pm

re: #291 prairiefire

What is the name of the ceremony where the different nations march, or parade? it seemed like it was during Hajj.

Not sure what you're referring to. Most people travel in groups when they go on hajj. They buy package deals and all stay in the same place and travel around with a sort of guide who's done it all before. so they're not purposely segregating by nation, it just works out that way because of the crowds and crazy logistics of it all (trying not to get lost, trampled, etc.)

301 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:06:36pm

re: #298 eclectic infidel

Will such a law also apply to Nuns who wear the habit or are they exempt because they're Catholic?

It would not apply to habits, or hijabs, only face covering garments.

302 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:08:47pm

re: #300 CuriousLurker

Oh, heck! I am hesitant to go to a concert because I hate crowds...

303 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:09:03pm

re: #301 Dark_Falcon

It would not apply to habits, or hijabs, only face covering garments.

Oh, ok. I'm going to read the article now.

304 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:12:27pm

re: #295 Dark_Falcon

Fine, then we don't agree. I'm convinced public security law will fit to ban the niqab and burqa and it should be so done. It will take a choice away, but I feel it must be done. Read the article I posted, and you'll understand my reasoning.

I'll read it later (it's too long to read now), but it's not going to change my mind. The government cannot and must not ban attire based on religion. As long as a woman is willing to show her face where security demands it (checking passport, taking driver's license photo, etc.) there's no more of a security issue then someone wearing one of those.... I can't remember what you call them at the moment, those face coverings during the winter.

305 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:16:45pm

re: #286 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

IIRC, you are a convert... born in U.S.?

Please shut me down if I get too personal.

Yep, an American-born convert. Dad from New England, mom from Texas. Last month marked 19 years for me. I still feel like a newbie. ;o)

306 prairiefire  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:17:51pm

re: #300 CuriousLurker

I'm not finding what I'm looking for through my google-fu. When I come across the photos, I'll post them. The women's dress that I'm thinking of looks the same through the centuries. Thanks!

307 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:19:14pm

re: #304 CuriousLurker

I'll read it later (it's too long to read now), but it's not going to change my mind. The government cannot and must not ban attire based on religion. As long as a woman is willing to show her face where security demands it (checking passport, taking driver's license photo, etc.) there's no more of a security issue then someone wearing one of those... I can't remember what you call them at the moment, those face coverings during the winter.

The article seems to be saying that if the face covering isn't banned at once, soon, it will be unsafe for any unveiled woman to walk the streets (of Europe). Weak argument. Plus, even if the veil is banned, how will that stop the misogynistic aspect of Islam that some Muslims in Europe entertain? I suspect it is safe to assume that not all Muslim men think it is okay to assault and rape unveiled women.

308 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:23:33pm

re: #305 CuriousLurker

Thanks.

309 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:25:17pm

re: #304 CuriousLurker

The hardest job in the world? Security guard at a bank in Alaska... everybody's wearing a mask...
-Steven Wright

310 sagehen  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:25:31pm

re: #219 Cato the Elder

So it's my impression that Geller's little hatefest was something of a flop.

Any major summaries in the NY media today?


Passing mention in the local papers -- there were about 2000 people at both the pro-mosque and anti-mosque demonstrations, NYPD wisely kept them separated by about a block.

But there were way more people at the official remembrance, a whole ceremony, and most of the family members, firefighters, elected officials etc were at that. That's what got the bulk of the TV coverage.

311 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:26:49pm

re: #277 researchok

re: #293 researchok

I think it is already a can or worms.

If it were always about choice, I'd agree with you 100%.

As I noted above, how about when then there really is no choice?

Is there any data for the U.S. on how often it's not voluntary? Because I think there's a big difference between here & Europe & the ME. At what percentage of involuntary face covering does the government move to restrict the religious freedoms of a specific group? And once the government overrides the First Amendment, what's to stop them from restricting other religion's freedoms? Or other rights?

312 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:29:08pm

re: #306 prairiefire

I'm not finding what I'm looking for through my google-fu. When I come across the photos, I'll post them. The women's dress that I'm thinking of looks the same through the centuries. Thanks!

It would definitely help to see photos. And you're welcome! ;o)

313 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:29:42pm

re: #309 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The hardest job in the world? Security guard at a bank in Alaska... everybody's wearing a mask...
-Steven Wright

I'll bet it is!

314 researchok  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:31:30pm

re: #311 CuriousLurker

re: #293 researchok

Is there any data for the U.S. on how often it's not voluntary? Because I think there's a big difference between here & Europe & the ME. At what percentage of involuntary face covering does the government move to restrict the religious freedoms of a specific group? And once the government overrides the First Amendment, what's to stop them from restricting other religion's freedoms? Or other rights?

You are right to note that there are differences between Europe and The ME. I don't we have anywhere near the problems they have there.

Still, there have been notable and well publicized incidents of violence (recall the incidents in Texas, Nebraska and elsewhere).

I do wonder if we can buck the trend here.

As I said earlier, I have no issue with with any kind of religious covering- unless they are coerced.

315 b_Snark  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:33:34pm

re: #309 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The hardest job in the world? Security guard at a bank in Alaska... everybody's wearing a mask...
-Steven Wright

That works here in the winter.

In a lot of the small towns people can drive up to the bank in snowmobiles.

316 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:35:57pm

re: #315 b_sharp

Brr.

317 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:41:43pm

re: #307 eclectic infidel

The article seems to be saying that if the face covering isn't banned at once, soon, it will be unsafe for any unveiled woman to walk the streets (of Europe). Weak argument. Plus, even if the veil is banned, how will that stop the misogynistic aspect of Islam that some Muslims in Europe entertain? I suspect it is safe to assume that not all Muslim men think it is okay to assault and rape unveiled women.

Thanks for reading the article for me—I was drowning in the replies!

I figured it would be something along those lines. I don't for one second believe that the bans in Europe have anything to do with concern for Muslim women's welfare. Women of all religions and no religion are beaten, raped and physically & emotionally abused by men every minute in every country in the world. Misogyny has nothing to do with clothing. If it was that simple, we could eradicate it overnight.

318 Stanghazi  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:45:55pm

re: #317 CuriousLurker

Excellent comment.

319 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:47:06pm

re: #317 CuriousLurker

This is how we begin to understand things.

320 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:48:02pm

re: #317 CuriousLurker

Thanks for reading the article for me—I was drowning in the replies!

I figured it would be something along those lines. I don't for one second believe that the bans in Europe have anything to do with concern for Muslim women's welfare. Women of all religions and no religion are beaten, raped and physically & emotionally abused by men every minute in every country in the world. Misogyny has nothing to do with clothing. If it was that simple, we could eradicate it overnight.

If anything, I'd like to see more resources available to young girls and women seeking to escape an abusive environment. Additionally, (if I had any say in the matter), I'd prohibit any sharia court from existing, where there is already a system of law in place.

321 researchok  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:57:34pm

re: #317 CuriousLurker

Thanks for reading the article for me—I was drowning in the replies!

I figured it would be something along those lines. I don't for one second believe that the bans in Europe have anything to do with concern for Muslim women's welfare. Women of all religions and no religion are beaten, raped and physically & emotionally abused by men every minute in every country in the world. Misogyny has nothing to do with clothing. If it was that simple, we could eradicate it overnight.

All true- but as rule, most misogynistic treatment has no religious component (that is, culturally or religiously condoned) and is in fact, looked down on.

Unfortunately, there is a fair amount of encouraged/condoned religiously inspired misogyny in some Muslim communities. It is by no means universal, but it is real.

322 b_Snark  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 4:59:49pm

re: #316 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Brr.

With La Nina sticking her pointy head up in June, and an average delay of 6-7 months for El Nino to completely disappear, I think Jan and Feb are going to be cold up here. Better get my winter woolies cleaned.

323 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:00:50pm

re: #317 CuriousLurker

Thanks for reading the article for me—I was drowning in the replies!

I figured it would be something along those lines. I don't for one second believe that the bans in Europe have anything to do with concern for Muslim women's welfare. Women of all religions and no religion are beaten, raped and physically & emotionally abused by men every minute in every country in the world. Misogyny has nothing to do with clothing. If it was that simple, we could eradicate it overnight.

Well, Sarkozy is pretty clear: his main concern is that France stay French in character. France has a long history of passing such cultural laws. I do think the French law needed, though. France really does have places where no woman can safely be unveiled and that needs to stop. It also forces a winnable confrontation between the police and the slum gangs.

324 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:00:51pm

re: #314 researchok

You are right to note that there are differences between Europe and The ME. I don't we have anywhere near the problems they have there.

Still, there have been notable and well publicized incidents of violence (recall the incidents in Texas, Nebraska and elsewhere).

I do wonder if we can buck the trend here.

As I said earlier, I have no issue with with any kind of religious covering- unless they are coerced.

Well, there's really no way to know about coercion unless the woman speaks up.

The key word here is "religious" clothing.

Let's look at it from another angle: How many non-Muslim men have abused their wives, sisters, daughters, or girlfriends because they felt they dressed inappropriately? I'm sure we could find thousands every year if the police were asked to flag such cases, but we never hear about them because they're not visibly "different" the way Muslims are.

Say there were several well publicized cases of Christian men who had abused their wives because they'd told them to always wear skirts below the knee or longer, and the wives disobeyed and wore mini skirts. Would you then advocate banning below the knee skirts for Christian women because, y'know, some of them had clearly been coerced into doing so and were abused for not following orders? Or would that be different because there are no specific "modesty" guidelines in Christianity (I can't remember if there are or not).

325 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:07:52pm

re: #320 eclectic infidel

If anything, I'd like to see more resources available to young girls and women seeking to escape an abusive environment. Additionally, (if I had any say in the matter), I'd prohibit any sharia court from existing, where there is already a system of law in place.

Exactly, make girls & women aware. There is no need for sharia courts. Muslims are required to obey the law of the land wherever they live. If Muslims (or Jews or Christians or whoever) ant to draw up voluntary, mutually agreed upon legal contracts for civil matters based on their respective religions, I have no problem with that as people do it every day for all manner of things.

326 researchok  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:09:53pm

re: #324 CuriousLurker

Well, there's really no way to know about coercion unless the woman speaks up.

The key word here is "religious" clothing.

Let's look at it from another angle: How many non-Muslim men have abused their wives, sisters, daughters, or girlfriends because they felt they dressed inappropriately? I'm sure we could find thousands every year if the police were asked to flag such cases, but we never hear about them because they're not visibly "different" the way Muslims are.

Say there were several well publicized cases of Christian men who had abused their wives because they'd told them to always wear skirts below the knee or longer, and the wives disobeyed and wore mini skirts. Would you then advocate banning below the knee skirts for Christian women because, y'know, some of them had clearly been coerced into doing so and were abused for not following orders? Or would that be different because there are no specific "modesty" guidelines in Christianity (I can't remember if there are or not).

Again, I take no issue with anything you say. Your observations are absolutely correct and further, the ME/European experience is not our own.

I can however point to the European Muslim community, where the issues of coercion are not even denied. What has gone on in the banlieues of Paris are well documented, as is the lack of serious condemnation by religious authorities. I mention this only because the perpetrators of crimes here (and it must be noted that the vast majority of these crimes are perpetrated by first generation immigrants) employ the same religious/cultural justifications.

If anything, an argument can be made that American Islam is many ways the most progressive and least repressive. My worry is that America Islam, if not nurtured, will fall to more extremist elements.

I think that is what Rauf is trying to say as well.

327 b_Snark  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:10:26pm

re: #325 CuriousLurker

Exactly, make girls & women aware. There is no need for sharia courts. Muslims are required to obey the law of the land wherever they live. If Muslims (or Jews or Christians or whoever) ant to draw up voluntary, mutually agreed upon legal contracts for civil matters based on their respective religions, I have no problem with that as people do it every day for all manner of things.

It wasn't all that long ago abuse of women (and kids) was an accepted part of Western society, and even more recently it was simply ignored.

328 b_Snark  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:11:54pm

re: #326 researchok


My worry is that America Islam, if not nurtured, will fall to more extremist elements.

I think that is what Rauf is trying to say as well.

I think you nailed it.

329 researchok  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:13:33pm

re: #328 b_sharp

I think you nailed it.

That issue is very, very real.

See this.

330 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:14:52pm

re: #323 Dark_Falcon

Well, Sarkozy is pretty clear: his main concern is that France stay French in character. France has a long history of passing such cultural laws. I do think the French law needed, though. France really does have places where no woman can safely be unveiled and that needs to stop. It also forces a winnable confrontation between the police and the slum gangs.

I think the French police need to find creative ways to combat the slum gangs because I don't see how banning the face veil will actually stop the violence against women in those communities and areas.

331 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:17:15pm

re: #323 Dark_Falcon

Well, Sarkozy is pretty clear: his main concern is that France stay French in character. France has a long history of passing such cultural laws. I do think the French law needed, though. France really does have places where no woman can safely be unveiled and that needs to stop. It also forces a winnable confrontation between the police and the slum gangs.

Well France is France and they obviously aren't bound by our Constitution. To be quite honest, I don't give a damn what they do—it's their country and if people want to stay there and be subject to their laws, so be it. I'm not now nor have I ever been inclined to cover my face, but I'm an American citizen and my Constitution says I have the right to do so if I choose. If anyone tries to take away one of the rights that my father, and his father, and his father fought to keep secure for me just because I'm Muslim, then they're going to have a hell of a fight on their hands.

332 What, me worry?  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:17:59pm

re: #326 researchok

I guess there's a chance of domestic recruitment, but I don't really see it. At least, not groups of people. Maybe a high strung, trouble-making teen who gets caught up with a cause and we've had some of those. But once people live in a free society, they don't want to go back. That's why it's so important we keep our society free. For them and for us.

333 b_Snark  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:20:48pm

re: #330 eclectic infidel

I think the French police need to find creative ways to combat the slum gangs because I don't see how banning the face veil will actually stop the violence against women in those communities and areas.

Banning the face veil would be akin to treating the symptom and not the disease. The problem is in the poor treatment of women by men. Stop that and the only women wearing veils will be those who want to. Coercion is the disease, the veil just tells us where it lives.

334 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:21:49pm

re: #333 b_sharp

Banning the face veil would be akin to treating the symptom and not the disease. The problem is in the poor treatment of women by men. Stop that and the only women wearing veils will be those who want to. Coercion is the disease, the veil just tells us where it lives.

Very well said.

335 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:22:18pm

re: #322 b_sharp

Same reason they thinking it'll be mild here for the same reason. We'll take it.

336 researchok  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:22:41pm

re: #332 marjoriemoon

I guess there's a chance of domestic recruitment, but I don't really see it. At least, not groups of people. Maybe a high strung, trouble-making teen who gets caught up with a cause and we've had some of those. But once people live in a free society, they don't want to go back. That's why it's so important we keep our society free. For them and for us.

MM. See this- From The Mailbag: “We are currently battling a formidible foe from the inside”

337 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:23:49pm

re: #321 researchok

All true- but as rule, most misogynistic treatment has no religious component (that is, culturally or religiously condoned) and is in fact, looked down on.

Unfortunately, there is a fair amount of encouraged/condoned religiously inspired misogyny in some Muslim communities. It is by no means universal, but it is real.

It's not religiously inspired, at least not in the sense that I think you probably mean. There is a lot of cultural misogyny and a lot of religious ignorance that leads to people believing certain abuses are condoned when they actually are not. This is true not only in Islam.

338 b_Snark  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:25:15pm

re: #335 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Same reason they thinking it'll be mild here for the same reason. We'll take it.

We've had an unusually wet and cool summer, while all around us high temperature records have fallen like leaves in Autumn.

I'm not sure why the Arctic air masses pissed on us this year, but they sure did.

339 What, me worry?  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:26:16pm

re: #331 CuriousLurker

Well France is France and they obviously aren't bound by our Constitution. To be quite honest, I don't give a damn what they do—it's their country and if people want to stay there and be subject to their laws, so be it. I'm not now nor have I ever been inclined to cover my face, but I'm an American citizen and my Constitution says I have the right to do so if I choose. If anyone tries to take away one of the rights that my father, and his father, and his father fought to keep secure for me just because I'm Muslim, then they're going to have a hell of a fight on their hands.

Europe has a whole other issue, one that Geller and Spencer are trying to convince 1000s of people is identical HERE. It is not. That's part of the problem.

But I have to say, as much as I respect moderate religious dress, and as Jew, I most certainly do, it's one of the aspects of my religion that I like the least. Mostly because it's all about containing the male libido and has very little to do with us as women. It's very objectifying and the feminist in me resists it.

340 b_Snark  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:28:58pm

re: #339 marjoriemoon

Europe has a whole other issue, one that Geller and Spencer are trying to convince 1000s of people is identical HERE. It is not. That's part of the problem.

But I have to say, as much as I respect moderate religious dress, and as Jew, I most certainly do, it's one of the aspects of my religion that I like the least. Mostly because it's all about containing the male libido and has very little to do with us as women. It's very objectifying and the feminist in me resists it.

If a male can't contain his libido on his own and in the face of gorgeous women, then he isn't doing it right.

341 What, me worry?  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:31:34pm

re: #336 researchok

MM. See this- From The Mailbag: “We are currently battling a formidible foe from the inside”

Thanks. I'll bookmark for later.

I have no objections what others want to wear. Cover all your skin, or wear a low cut blouse. I really don't care.

I don't know how to change misogynistic societies and certainly, there's more than Islam. Empowering the women seems to be a first step, but that's difficult and quite often, dangerous.

342 researchok  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:35:43pm

re: #337 CuriousLurker

It's not religiously inspired, at least not in the sense that I think you probably mean. There is a lot of cultural misogyny and a lot of religious ignorance that leads to people believing certain abuses are condoned when they actually are not. This is true not only in Islam.

Of course!

But how do you explain the community standing and respect given the Australian imam 'Women are uncovered meat' or the preacher in one of the Scandinavian countries who declared 'Women who do not conform to dress codes are subjecting themselves to abuse'. The same applies to the preachers in the Paris banlieues, who with a wave of their hand could stop the assaults on women and girls- and yet pointedly choose to remain silent.

None of this negates what you are saying. I am in agreement.

My hope is that American Islam will confront this head on. Again, isn't that what Rauf is all about?

343 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:36:26pm

re: #330 eclectic infidel

I think the French police need to find creative ways to combat the slum gangs because I don't see how banning the face veil will actually stop the violence against women in those communities and areas.

They won't find ways unless you, push something they can't ignore. Sarko hasn't yet been able to reform the police to the needed degree, mostly because doing so would need the kind of mass firings not allowed by French law. Reported crime would also skyrocket in the short term, and that would be used by the opposition. The law would help with the rank and file by firing them up against a national threat as well as providing cover for firings if the brass drag their feet.

344 researchok  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:37:49pm

re: #341 marjoriemoon

Thanks. I'll bookmark for later.

I have no objections what others want to wear. Cover all your skin, or wear a low cut blouse. I really don't care.

I don't know how to change misogynistic societies and certainly, there's more than Islam. Empowering the women seems to be a first step, but that's difficult and quite often, dangerous.

Ain't that the truth! Just ask Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Like you, I don't know what to do- but when I saw that Time cover of that mutilated Afghan woman, I became ill.

How do you fix something so broken?

345 b_Snark  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:38:13pm

re: #341 marjoriemoon

Thanks. I'll bookmark for later.

I have no objections what others want to wear. Cover all your skin, or wear a low cut blouse. I really don't care.

I don't know how to change misogynistic societies and certainly, there's more than Islam. Empowering the women seems to be a first step, but that's difficult and quite often, dangerous.

You denormalize it the same way society is in the process of denormalizing smoking. The actions labelled 'PC' by the right were originally an attempt to denormalize everything from racism/bigotry to beating children.

Now, apparently PC is a epithet.

346 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:39:54pm

re: #326 researchok

If anything, an argument can be made that American Islam is many ways the most progressive and least repressive. My worry is that America Islam, if not nurtured, will fall to more extremist elements.

I think that is what Rauf is trying to say as well.

That right there. That's the key. In order to be nurtured it would really, really, really be a lot easier for us if we could be accepted as Americans who happen to be Muslim, instead of Muslims who happen to be American.

Taking away our religious freedoms, no matter how well intentioned, is NOT going to foster an environment conducive to nurturing & cooperation. Those of us who were born here don't need to be assimilated—we're already every bit as American in our culture as you or anyone else, even if we dress & pray funny and only have two holidays. ;o)

I can reach out to individuals, and in fact that's one of the reasons I'm out here with you guys. I mean I like talking & learning about political stuff and all that, but actively participating in various forums let's people get to know me, ask me questions, see that I'm not much different than they are. I could go hang out in Islamic forums where I wouldn't have to explain anything, but then I wouldn't be helping matters, would I? It's not much, but it's all I can do.

That's where somebody like Imam Rauf with far better diplomatic skills mine comes in. He can reach out to a much wider audience, if people will just give him a chance.

347 researchok  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:42:51pm

re: #345 b_sharp

You denormalize it the same way society is in the process of denormalizing smoking. The actions labelled 'PC' by the right were originally an attempt to denormalize everything from racism/bigotry to beating children.

Now, apparently PC is a epithet.

It's a two way street.

Much of the left and the woman's movement have remained quiet on rape in Sudan and the treatment of Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Ah, politics.

348 What, me worry?  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:43:34pm

re: #344 researchok

Ain't that the truth! Just ask Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Like you, I don't know what to do- but when I saw that Time cover of that mutilated Afghan woman, I became ill.

How do you fix something so broken?

I'm not sure how I feel about Hirsi Ali. I've changed my mind about her, Darwish and Gabrielle. They all left Islam and believe it's the only way to resolved the issue. To leave it.

I'm very much moved by Irshad Manji. She was on This Week today if you get a chance to see it online. She's a wonderful speaker, a professor actually, but she's a reformer, not a quitter.

349 b_Snark  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:43:49pm

re: #344 researchok

Ain't that the truth! Just ask Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Like you, I don't know what to do- but when I saw that Time cover of that mutilated Afghan woman, I became ill.

How do you fix something so broken?

In Afghanistan, it's up to them, not us.

With the amount of information the Inet has opened up, there will be some fairly big changes in the world's non-extremist population over the next 50 years - as long as AGW doesn't make social progress irrelevant.

350 What, me worry?  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:45:58pm

re: #345 b_sharp

You denormalize it the same way society is in the process of denormalizing smoking. The actions labelled 'PC' by the right were originally an attempt to denormalize everything from racism/bigotry to beating children.

Now, apparently PC is a epithet.

Well, we don't have to worry about it here in the U.S. I don't think I've ever seen a full burka in Miami. I have seen saris and headscarves, yes. I did see black burkas at Disney, but they were on older women and I assumed visitors from other countries.

Anyway, I don't see women in Afghanistan or the Sudan fighting that battle.

351 b_Snark  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:46:30pm

re: #347 researchok

It's a two way street.

Much of the left and the woman's movement have remained quiet on rape in Sudan and the treatment of Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Ah, politics.

Is it possible they simply feel impotent?

352 researchok  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:47:18pm

re: #348 marjoriemoon

I'm not sure how I feel about Hirsi Ali. I've changed my mind about her, Darwish and Gabrielle. They all left Islam and believe it's the only way to resolved the issue. To leave it.

I'm very much moved by Irshad Manji. She was on This Week today if you get a chance to see it online. She's a wonderful speaker, a professor actually, but she's a reformer, not a quitter.

I like Manji, too. She has quite a following.

As for the others, ion their defense, they were threatened, had fatwas issued, etc. Ali was especially excoriated primarily because she spoke out against FGM. The more beatings she had to endure, the more alienated they became.

There are no simple answers to any of this.

353 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:48:10pm

re: #352 researchok

I like Manji, too. She has quite a following.

As for the others, ion their defense, they were threatened, had fatwas issued, etc. Ali was especially excoriated primarily because she spoke out against FGM. The more beatings she had to endure, the more alienated they became.

There are no simple answers to any of this.

Agreed. One things we all know to be true is there is no silver bullet.

354 What, me worry?  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:48:38pm

re: #347 researchok

It's a two way street.

Much of the left and the woman's movement have remained quiet on rape in Sudan and the treatment of Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Ah, politics.

That's not true. Feminist.org (The Feminist Majority) has been actively engaged with Afghani women for over a decade.
[Link: feminist.org...]

355 researchok  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:49:15pm

re: #351 b_sharp

Is it possible they simply feel impotent?

No, it's politics. Nowadays that is the driving force behind every ideology.

Something like 45,000 a month are killed in Congo. Why? Because there is no political incentive to get involved.

It is a tragedy repeated in many countries.

356 researchok  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:50:26pm

re: #354 marjoriemoon

That's not true. Feminist.org (The Feminist Majority) has been actively engaged with Afghani women for over a decade.
[Link: feminist.org...]

NOW has deliberately remained silent.

357 What, me worry?  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:51:01pm

re: #352 researchok

I like Manji, too. She has quite a following.

As for the others, ion their defense, they were threatened, had fatwas issued, etc. Ali was especially excoriated primarily because she spoke out against FGM. The more beatings she had to endure, the more alienated they became.

There are no simple answers to any of this.

I appreciate they had their experience. Christians, Catholics have left Christianity because of abuse and it's hurt their relationship with God, which I think is worse. Hirisi Ali is an atheist, I believe.

358 b_Snark  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:51:46pm

re: #350 marjoriemoon

Well, we don't have to worry about it here in the U.S. I don't think I've ever seen a full burka in Miami. I have seen saris and headscarves, yes. I did see black burkas at Disney, but they were on older women and I assumed visitors from other countries.

Anyway, I don't see women in Afghanistan or the Sudan fighting that battle.

Misogyny is still a problem in the western world even though we've come a long way. We have to make sure our house is clean in order to maintain credibility when addressing the problems of other countries. Then we have to decide to either get involved directly or through the proxy of propaganda and the offer of a safe haven.

Successful change pretty much has to come from the inside.

359 researchok  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:51:52pm

re: #350 marjoriemoon

Well, we don't have to worry about it here in the U.S. I don't think I've ever seen a full burka in Miami. I have seen saris and headscarves, yes. I did see black burkas at Disney, but they were on older women and I assumed visitors from other countries.

Anyway, I don't see women in Afghanistan or the Sudan fighting that battle.

They can't fight the battle. They are hostages.

360 researchok  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:54:01pm

re: #357 marjoriemoon

I appreciate they had their experience. Christians, Catholics have left Christianity because of abuse and it's hurt their relationship with God, which I think is worse. Hirisi Ali is an atheist, I believe.

Yes, I think she is atheist.

MM, it will take at least a generation to fix this.

At least.

361 What, me worry?  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:54:26pm

re: #356 researchok

NOW has deliberately remained silent.

No, not silent. I don't know how active, though.

[Link: www.now.org...]

Isn't NOW and The Feminist Majority the same thing tho?

362 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:56:00pm

re: #339 marjoriemoon

Europe has a whole other issue, one that Geller and Spencer are trying to convince 1000s of people is identical HERE. It is not. That's part of the problem.

Exactly.

But I have to say, as much as I respect moderate religious dress, and as Jew, I most certainly do, it's one of the aspects of my religion that I like the least. Mostly because it's all about containing the male libido and has very little to do with us as women. It's very objectifying and the feminist in me resists it.

I understand completely. I was (and still am) a highly independent woman. It wasn't easy for me to start covering for a whole slew of reasons, but once I did I found that I liked it very much, for a whole different set of (equally numerous) reasons.

I have an Israeli friend who covers also. I thoroughly enjoy talking with her because it's really nice to have access to a non-Muslim woman who understands where I'm coming from. Neither one of us feels that it's objectifying in any manner, shape, or form, but I can understand how it would seem that way to others.

Heh, you might like this story: One time back in Texas I went to a water park with an Iranian friend and his young daughter. He wore a beard and was very ME looking. I was wearing my headscarf and all, also looking ethnic because of my coloring. As we walked past all the people in their swimsuits and they goggled at us, he was cursing under his breath, "Dammit! See how people are staring? You KNOW they're thinking what a sadistic bastard I am for forcing you to dress like that in this heat and not go swimming. I am NEVER bringing you to a water park with me again!" ;o)

363 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 5:56:35pm

re: #343 Dark_Falcon

They won't find ways unless you, push something they can't ignore. Sarko hasn't yet been able to reform the police to the needed degree, mostly because doing so would need the kind of mass firings not allowed by French law. Reported crime would also skyrocket in the short term, and that would be used by the opposition. The law would help with the rank and file by firing them up against a national threat as well as providing cover for firings if the brass drag their feet.

Suffice to say that this doesn't strike me as a winning argument, nor a solution to end the cycle of violence.

364 What, me worry?  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 6:00:27pm

re: #358 b_sharp

Misogyny is still a problem in the western world even though we've come a long way. We have to make sure our house is clean in order to maintain credibility when addressing the problems of other countries. Then we have to decide to either get involved directly or through the proxy of propaganda and the offer of a safe haven.

Successful change pretty much has to come from the inside.

Of course, free societies struggle with these things, but we have ways out. We have halfway houses, domestic shelters, the courts. It may not be perfect, but it's a lot more than nothing. We'll never be truly clean, if you mean get rid of it entirely.

You can't conflate Muslims living in fear based societies with those living here. It's apples and oranges.

365 researchok  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 6:01:18pm

re: #361 marjoriemoon

No, not silent. I don't know how active, though.

[Link: www.now.org...]

Isn't NOW and The Feminist Majority the same thing tho?

I will look it up, but I recall the President of NOW refused to condemn rape because as she put it, 'there is rape in America.'

Something like that. I recall whoever it was took all kinds of heat for that.

366 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 6:03:01pm

re: #342 researchok

Of course!

But how do you explain the community standing and respect given the Australian imam 'Women are uncovered meat' or the preacher in one of the Scandinavian countries who declared 'Women who do not conform to dress codes are subjecting themselves to abuse'. The same applies to the preachers in the Paris banlieues, who with a wave of their hand could stop the assaults on women and girls- and yet pointedly choose to remain silent.

Culture + ignorance. Imams aren't immune to being total pricks.

None of this negates what you are saying. I am in agreement.

My hope is that American Islam will confront this head on. Again, isn't that what Rauf is all about?

Oh, we will, trust me. I know a whole BUNCH of American "sisters" who aren't about to sit back and take any abuse from some twisted idiot just because he claims to be doing it in the name of Islam. Uh-uh, that ain't gonna fly. The brother's gotta sleep sometime... *evil grin*

367 What, me worry?  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 6:05:33pm

re: #362 CuriousLurker

Exactly.

I understand completely. I was (and still am) a highly independent woman. It wasn't easy for me to start covering for a whole slew of reasons, but once I did I found that I liked it very much, for a whole different set of (equally numerous) reasons.

I have an Israeli friend who covers also. I thoroughly enjoy talking with her because it's really nice to have access to a non-Muslim woman who understands where I'm coming from. Neither one of us feels that it's objectifying in any manner, shape, or form, but I can understand how it would seem that way to others.

Heh, you might like this story: One time back in Texas I went to a water park with an Iranian friend and his young daughter. He wore a beard and was very ME looking. I was wearing my headscarf and all, also looking ethnic because of my coloring. As we walked past all the people in their swimsuits and they goggled at us, he was cursing under his breath, "Dammit! See how people are staring? You KNOW they're thinking what a sadistic bastard I am for forcing you to dress like that in this heat and not go swimming. I am NEVER bringing you to a water park with me again!" ;o)

LOL Very cute!

I do understand about the dress code. At least I think I do! But whatever it is... the most important thing is that it doesn't affect me or offend me.

368 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 6:05:39pm

re: #345 b_sharp

You denormalize it the same way society is in the process of denormalizing smoking. The actions labelled 'PC' by the right were originally an attempt to denormalize everything from racism/bigotry to beating children.

Now, apparently PC is a epithet.

Exactly. You make it culturally unacceptable and it will stop (for the most part).

369 What, me worry?  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 6:06:21pm

re: #365 researchok

I will look it up, but I recall the President of NOW refused to condemn rape because as she put it, 'there is rape in America.'

Something like that. I recall whoever it was took all kinds of heat for that.

You'll have to link that for me whenever you get around to it :)

370 researchok  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 6:07:46pm

re: #369 marjoriemoon

You'll have to link that for me whenever you get around to it :)

MM, see this Multiculturalism and Its Discontents

I will find that story and post the link- if not tonight, tomorrow for sure.

371 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 6:09:56pm

re: #364 marjoriemoon

Of course, free societies struggle with these things, but we have ways out. We have halfway houses, domestic shelters, the courts. It may not be perfect, but it's a lot more than nothing. We'll never be truly clean, if you mean get rid of it entirely.

You can't conflate Muslims living in fear based societies with those living here. It's apples and oranges.

Yeah, there's not much we can do about Muslims living in other countries except try not to make things worse with our good intentions. But we can do something here and hope that the example spreads eastward.

372 b_Snark  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 6:11:43pm

re: #364 marjoriemoon

Of course, free societies struggle with these things, but we have ways out. We have halfway houses, domestic shelters, the courts. It may not be perfect, but it's a lot more than nothing. We'll never be truly clean, if you mean get rid of it entirely.

You can't conflate Muslims living in fear based societies with those living here. It's apples and oranges.

I don't think I'm conflating the two, the severity and the extent it is ingrained in the belief system is greater in fear based societies than here, but I don't think they can be completely divorced either. The underlying source for the poor treatment of women crosses quite a few cultures. None of our cultures got where they are in isolation and we have at the heart a paternalistic history.

I guess my point is that we are limited in what we can do to help these women beyond giving them the desire to get out from under their oppression and the conviction that since it has been done to a great degree here it can also happen there. Our only other option is to get directly involved with sanctions, which never work without punishing the victims, or military/diplomatic intervention.

373 What, me worry?  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 6:13:55pm

re: #368 CuriousLurker

That's why Imam Faisel's interfaith work is so important.

My mom and I just got to chat today after the holiday. She said they had a beautiful interfaith concert on Saturday at her temple to mark 9/11. The Rabbi and his father sang. The Sikh community did a drum circle. The Catholic priest sang. There were the Baptists, Episcopalians and a non-denominational "spiritual" group. She said it was fantastic. The Imam, the Priest and the Rabbi all stood up and gave speeches. They do a lot of interfaith work with the Muslim community there in Tucson. I would hope that all of this stuff promotes more of that around the country.

374 b_Snark  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 6:14:09pm

re: #368 CuriousLurker

Exactly. You make it culturally unacceptable and it will stop (for the most part).

Unfortunately, while it is changing you'll get panicked push-back from those who are terrified by the change.

375 What, me worry?  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 6:18:42pm

re: #372 b_sharp

I don't think I'm conflating the two, the severity and the extent it is ingrained in the belief system is greater in fear based societies than here, but I don't think they can be completely divorced either. The underlying source for the poor treatment of women crosses quite a few cultures. None of our cultures got where they are in isolation and we have at the heart a paternalistic history.

I guess my point is that we are limited in what we can do to help these women beyond giving them the desire to get out from under their oppression and the conviction that since it has been done to a great degree here it can also happen there. Our only other option is to get directly involved with sanctions, which never work without punishing the victims, or military/diplomatic intervention.

But in the U.S. you have options for dealing with domestic abuse. That's the difference. Maybe in another 300 years when democracy finally hits them, the abuse will stop.

376 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 6:20:00pm

re: #374 b_sharp

Unfortunately, while it is changing you'll get panicked push-back from those who are terrified by the change.

Yeah, change doesn't come easy. I used to know several Saudi families back in Texas. The kids had totally different attitudes than their parents, much more progressive. And even many of the parents were making changes on their own. Times they are a-changin', albeit more slowly in some places than others.

I think the advent of fast, cheap global travel (and now the internet) is going to make it impossible for all but the most remote societies to remain stagnant.

377 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 6:21:21pm

re: #373 marjoriemoon

That's wonderful. I hope it spreads like wildfire.

378 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 6:21:53pm

re: #375 marjoriemoon

But in the U.S. you have options for dealing with domestic abuse. That's the difference. Maybe in another 300 years when democracy finally hits them, the abuse will stop.

If it gets there then. I'm not so sure. I don't see forward progress as inevitable.

379 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 6:22:07pm

Okay, you guys have officially fried my brain tonight. I'm toast. Not that I mind! I'm glad you care enough to be interested feel comfortable enough with me to ask questions.

I'm going to go back through the thread and see if I missed anyone, then I'm gonna bounce on out of here for the evening.

380 What, me worry?  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 6:23:45pm

re: #379 CuriousLurker

Okay, you guys have officially fried my brain tonight. I'm toast. Not that I mind! I'm glad you care enough to be interested feel comfortable enough with me to ask questions.

I'm going to go back through the thread and see if I missed anyone, then I'm gonna bounce on out of here for the evening.

Back at ya :) Have a good week.

381 What, me worry?  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 6:24:31pm

re: #378 Dark_Falcon

If it gets there then. I'm not so sure. I don't see forward progress as inevitable.

Oh it is. If the Christians can do it, the Muslims will do it!

382 Usually refered to as anyways  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 6:25:25pm

re: #375 marjoriemoon

But in the U.S. you have options for dealing with domestic abuse. That's the difference. Maybe in another 300 years when democracy finally hits them, the abuse will stop.

Hi marjoree,

Probably butting in where Im not wanted, and havent really caught up on the whole thread, but this caught my eye.

Maybe in another 300 years when democracy finally hits them, the abuse will stop

Its not like women are not abused in the states...

383 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 6:26:27pm

re: #381 marjoriemoon

Oh it is. If the Christians can do it, the Muslims will do it!

I disagree, but it's not simply about religion. It's entirely possible for the world to go backwards.

384 b_Snark  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 6:27:42pm

re: #375 marjoriemoon

But in the U.S. you have options for dealing with domestic abuse. That's the difference. Maybe in another 300 years when democracy finally hits them, the abuse will stop.

Well, democracy by itself won't do it, they need to experience a fundamental change in the way males and females interact. Options for dealing with domestic abuse will likely take a separation of that interpretation of that religion and politics.

I hope to hell it doesn't take 300 years. I'm hoping to see change within 50 years. In many cultures, 50 years can make a huge difference, and the flow of information from the WEB has accelerated that substantially.

385 b_Snark  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 6:29:46pm

re: #383 Dark_Falcon

I disagree, but it's not simply about religion. It's entirely possible for the world to go backwards.

With the problems inherent in global warming that is a real possibility.

386 What, me worry?  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 6:34:02pm

re: #384 b_sharp

Well, democracy by itself won't do it, they need to experience a fundamental change in the way males and females interact. Options for dealing with domestic abuse will likely take a separation of that interpretation of that religion and politics.

I hope to hell it doesn't take 300 years. I'm hoping to see change within 50 years. In many cultures, 50 years can make a huge difference, and the flow of information from the WEB has accelerated that substantially.

I have no idea really. The Soviet Union fell, but how long did that take?

387 What, me worry?  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 6:35:44pm

re: #382 ozbloke

Hi marjoree,

Probably butting in where Im not wanted, and havent really caught up on the whole thread, but this caught my eye.

Maybe in another 300 years when democracy finally hits them, the abuse will stop

Its not like women are not abused in the states...

The part that you didn't quote said that the difference is, we have domestic abuse shelters here, the courts, etc. that they don't have in fear based societies.

388 What, me worry?  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 6:36:32pm

re: #384 b_sharp

Well, democracy by itself won't do it, they need to experience a fundamental change in the way males and females interact. Options for dealing with domestic abuse will likely take a separation of that interpretation of that religion and politics.

I hope to hell it doesn't take 300 years. I'm hoping to see change within 50 years. In many cultures, 50 years can make a huge difference, and the flow of information from the WEB has accelerated that substantially.

Not democracy, btw, in and of itself, but a free society of which democracy is a part.

389 Usually refered to as anyways  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 6:54:00pm

re: #387 marjoriemoon

The part that you didn't quote said that the difference is, we have domestic abuse shelters here, the courts, etc. that they don't have in fear based societies.

marjoriemoon,

I agree, but the issue is deeper than religious affiliation, I suppose thats my point.
It required changes in the hearts and minds of men...

390 b_Snark  Sun, Sep 12, 2010 6:59:06pm

re: #386 marjoriemoon

I have no idea really. The Soviet Union fell, but how long did that take?

When Gorbachev and Reagan got working on it, not too long.

What has happened in North America over the last 50 years?

391 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 13, 2010 3:06:35pm
392 Charles Johnson  Mon, Sep 13, 2010 4:01:19pm

Buh bye now!


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