Armey: A GOP Majority Will Fight to Ban Abortion

Politics • Views: 3,204

Tea Party astroturfer Dick Armey says that if the GOP takes control of Congress in the mid-term election, they’re going to fight hard to take away women’s rights to safe, legal abortions.

When asked Monday at a Monitor-sponsored breakfast for reporters about the possibility of a truce on social issues going into the presidential campaign, Mr. Armey said, “A truce? No. These are issues of the heart. People are not going to turn their hearts and minds away from things that they have so heartfelt.”

Armey, who served as House majority leader, added, “the fact of the matter is there is sort of a question of first things first priorities. If we lose this nation, if it falls into insolvency, then all of these issues pretty well fall by the wayside too, don’t they. So i think there is a setting of priorities.”

He specifically referred to the abortion issue. “Since President Obama has been elected, there has been extraordinarily high levels of funding for international abortions through what is called the Mexico City language. That fight hasn’t been had for a few years. Now that fight will be had with this majority,” he said, referring to his stated expectation that Republicans will win control of the House, and perhaps the Senate. He added, “these issues are too important to be left behind and they won’t be left behind.”

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847 comments
1 Four More Tears  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:13:17pm

Rile up that base, Dick.

2 Kragar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:14:58pm

It is an important issue, and if this is the GOP's position, I know who to vote for now.

The GOP gets no support from me.

3 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:15:02pm

All talk, I believe.

Notwithstanding all the publicity, more GOP members think like Frum and other pro choice conservatives than they do Armey. He's just looking for a TP endorsement.

If the opposite were true, abortion would have been on local ballot initiatives and under serious threat for a long time. Save for a very few jurisdictions, that has not happened.

4 Kragar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:18:00pm

The TPers are all about sending a message. I think the appropriate response is to punish the GOP for permitting these nitwits to influence their positions for as long as they have.

5 Gus  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:19:22pm

On Dick Armey: He would later divorce his wife and marry one of his students.

Another one.

6 Gus  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:21:04pm

This is like a nightmare. Seeing Dick Armey, Phyllis Schlafly and Newt Gingrich again.

7 elizajane  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:21:14pm

End funding for International Abortions! What a great campaign promise.

It's code for, let's screw over some poor brown women. Foreign ones, yet. In the name of Christianity.
Absolutely a winning line for today's Republicans.

8 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:24:08pm

Just so we are all clear on exactly what is being discussed, "funding for international abortions", in reality, is funding for women's reproductive health care, abroad. There is no such thing as explicit funding for "international abortions". That is a complete fabrication.

9 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:24:53pm

re: #3 researchok

Notwithstanding all the publicity, more GOP members think like Frum and other pro choice conservatives than they do Armey. He's just looking for a TP endorsement.

I'm sorry, but that's not true.


[Link: www.ontheissues.org...]

Ban abortion with Constitutional amendment

We say the unborn child has a fundamental right to life. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and we endorse legislation that the 14th Amendment’s protections apply to unborn children. Our purpose is to have legislative and judicial protection of that right against those who perform abortions. We oppose using public revenues for abortion and will not fund organizations which advocate it. We support the appointment of judges who respect the sanctity of innocent human life.
Source: Republican Platform adopted at GOP National Convention Aug 12, 2000

[Link: www.gallup.com...]

Republicans Move to the Right

The source of the shift in abortion views is clear in the Gallup Values and Beliefs survey. The percentage of Republicans (including independents who lean Republican) calling themselves "pro-life" rose by 10 points over the past year, from 60% to 70%, while there has been essentially no change in the views of Democrats and Democratic leaners.

10 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:25:13pm

re: #8 Fozzie Bear

International Bright Young Abortions!

11 theheat  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:25:53pm

All I can say is, I didn't vote GOP "last" time, and I don't plan to ever again. I saw the writing on the wall when the party started to collective kneel and blow the likes of Rush Limbaugh, then running Caribou Barbie as a legitimate VP candidate sealed the deal for me. The GOP is, and has been, headed for a Fundie Free For All.

I've been over them since 2008, and probably before the last presidential election. Funny thing, people keep acting like this freakiness happened all of a sudden, but the Republican party has behaved like a bad dog shitting on the rug since the last Bush was in office. This didn't come out of nowhere. It's what they ARE.

12 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:27:20pm

re: #11 theheat

It started during the Reagan years. Bush Sr. was less amicable to the fundie right than his predecessor.

13 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:27:21pm

re: #3 researchok

All talk, I believe.

Notwithstanding all the publicity, more GOP members think like Frum and other pro choice conservatives than they do Armey. He's just looking for a TP endorsement.

If the opposite were true, abortion would have been on local ballot initiatives and under serious threat for a long time. Save for a very few jurisdictions, that has not happened.

You're apologizing for extremists again.

Legislators don't think bills into law. I vote based on how legislators BEHAVE, now on how they think when they're at their cocktail parties admitting their real views to their friends.

Armey is very influential, and he's pushing the discourse into the septic tank. Dick Armey is one of the more fetid piles pulling levers on the right, more scummy lobbyists, more people sowing fear and trying to take away American freedoms.

14 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:28:21pm

re: #12 Fozzie Bear

It started during the Reagan years. Bush Sr. was less amicable to the fundie right than his predecessor.

Yep!

Bush Sr. was far smarter than Reagan, but Reagan had the sunny smile and the hollywood career, them's politics

15 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:28:58pm

I hate this. I like the Republican candidate for governor in NM, except for her anti-choice stance. Damn Republicans are making me a single issue voter. I can't exactly ask her, "Would you promise not to act on your beliefs in this one case?"

16 theheat  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:29:20pm

re: #8 Fozzie Bear

Anything to curtail turning a woman's uterus into a parking lot is considered abortion funding, including certain types of contraception. It's either abstinence or birth for the extremists. Pills and rubbers are the devil's work...

17 Gus  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:29:42pm

And he's got that asshole Matt Kibbe sitting next to him. That creep thinks of himself as libertarian of sorts. Want to read something funny? This is from Amazon regarding Dick Armey's book, Give Us Liberty: A Tea Party Manifesto:

Former House Majority Leader Dick Armey and Matt Kibbe have been on the front lines of one of the fastest-growing and most influential political phenomena in recent memory: the Tea Party movement. As the leaders of the advocacy organization FreedomWorks, they have helped guide and give voice to hundreds of thousands of activists from across the country and have a strong vision for the future of this powerful grassroots uprising.

United by a strong belief in limited government and individual liberty, Tea Party members are changing the American political landscape. Unlike mainstream media accounts that observe the Tea Party movement from the outside looking in, Give Us Liberty chronicles the roots and rise of a new breed of taxpayer activism in the voices of those who were there. Discover the personalities that drove the first meetings, the unknown candidates whose principled stand earned them unlikely victories, the march that gathered more than a million activists, and the bedrock beliefs that brought them together.

In this national call to action, Armey and Kibbe provide an intimate history of the movement, explain how citizens can join the cause, and chart the future of the Tea Party—and America. Give Us Liberty also contains a battle-tested, step-by-step guide to organizing and effecting change in any community.

Right. Liberty. For one, Freedomworks is by no means a grassroots organization. They're well funded by individual and corporate interest. They are, as Charles notes, an astroturfing organization. By now most of us know very well that people like Armey and the Tea Party have a rather limited concept of liberty. That liberty does not include a woman's right to a safe and legal abortion.

18 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:30:55pm

re: #9 Obdicut

I'm sorry, but that's not true.

[Link: www.ontheissues.org...]

[Link: www.gallup.com...]

Sorry, that's just noise, designed to feed a portion of the base some political pablum. There hasn't been a serious assault on abortion in decades. Even SCOTUS appointees view abortion as 'settled law'.

If abortion were truly under attack, we'd have heard about on the local level for decades.

That just is not the case.

Show me the mass assault on abortion by local governments.

19 HappyWarrior  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:31:12pm

Individual rights except when we don't think you deserve rights.

20 webevintage  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:31:17pm

OT:
Tea Party Float Depicts Obama Whipping A White ‘Future Tax Payer’ Pulling A Wagon
[Link: thinkprogress.org...]
Stay classy Tea Party......

The townfolks were not impressed, Teatard whines about being called racist.

21 theheat  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:31:55pm

re: #15 wrenchwench

Remember when everyone was saying Sarah Palin wasn't anti-science, and wasn't going to shove her fundiness down everyone's throats, despite her personal beliefs, during the last election cycle? Well, since the election, turns out all she talks about is her fundiness, and how it should be the law of the land. Imagine if she'd been elected.

You give these people and inch, you better expect them to run with it. Despite what they say, they all have their own agendas.

22 SpaceJesus  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:32:43pm

"hey we don't have any solutions for the economy either, so uh, let's go after women's rights or something, yeah"

-gop 2012

23 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:32:51pm

re: #13 WindUpBird

You're apologizing for extremists again.

Legislators don't think bills into law. I vote based on how legislators BEHAVE, now on how they think when they're at their cocktail parties admitting their real views to their friends.

Armey is very influential, and he's pushing the discourse into the septic tank. Dick Armey is one of the more fetid piles pulling levers on the right, more scummy lobbyists, more people sowing fear and trying to take away American freedoms.

As I noted, if the GOP were truly going to do away with abortion, we'd have seen it at the local level for decades.

I understand the need to keep abortion a hot button issue- it keeps the troops fired up- on both sides.

24 Interesting Times  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:33:06pm

re: #11 theheat

I've been over them since 2008, and probably before the last presidential election. Funny thing, people keep acting like this freakiness happened all of a sudden, but the Republican party has behaved like a bad dog shitting on the rug since the last Bush was in office. This didn't come out of nowhere. It's what they ARE.

Dispersant of GOP Inconvenient Truths

25 Four More Tears  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:33:22pm

re: #20 webevintage

OT:
Tea Party Float Depicts Obama Whipping A White ‘Future Tax Payer’ Pulling A Wagon
[Link: thinkprogress.org...]
Stay classy Tea Party...

The townfolks were not impressed, Teatard whines about being called racist.

It's like a race to find who can be the most offensive...

26 middy  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:33:29pm

re: #11 theheat

Funny thing, people keep acting like this freakiness happened all of a sudden, but the Republican party has behaved like a bad dog shitting on the rug since the last Bush was in office. This didn't come out of nowhere. It's what they ARE.

It's just never before been as obvious, what with the gay marriage and the Islamophobia and the black man in the white house, how truly rabid some of these dogs are... when bad dog turns to mad dog the other dogs stay away.

27 SpaceJesus  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:33:33pm

re: #20 webevintage


lol wtf is this

28 Interesting Times  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:34:37pm

re: #23 researchok

As I noted, if the GOP were truly going to do away with abortion, we'd have seen it at the local level for decades.

How about the entire state of Oklahoma?

29 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:34:46pm

re: #16 theheat

Anything to curtail turning a woman's uterus into a parking lot is considered abortion funding, including certain types of contraception. It's either abstinence or birth for the extremists. Pills and rubbers are the devil's work...

Yep. The other side of this coin is that the GOP is now explicitly opposed to international funding for prenatal care, fertility treatments, and the like. Why do you hate babies, Mr. Armey? Why do you want mothers to die from complications during childbirth?

This is the obvious implication of such policies, and yet, the DNC is predictably too spineless and cowardly to drive this point home.

THE GOP IS EXPLICITLY OPPOSED TO POLICIES THAT HELP PREGNANT WOMEN AND INFANTS ABROAD.

30 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:35:14pm

re: #18 researchok

Sorry, that's just noise, designed to feed a portion of the base some political pablum. There hasn't been a serious assault on abortion in decades.

Except in Oklahoma, Tennessee, Mississippi, Arizona, or Louisiana, of course.

[Link: www.truth-out.org...]

Anyway: your contention was that most GOP voters favor pro-choice politicians.

Given that the GOP has banning abortion through a constitutional amendment as a party plank, and 70% of GOP voters are 'pro-life'-- defined as favoring abortion in only a few circumstances if at all-- how do you support that claim?

31 HappyWarrior  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:35:24pm

re: #20 webevintage

OT:
Tea Party Float Depicts Obama Whipping A White ‘Future Tax Payer’ Pulling A Wagon
[Link: thinkprogress.org...]
Stay classy Tea Party...

The townfolks were not impressed, Teatard whines about being called racist.

Because paying higher taxes is just the same as slavery. What a bunch of dildos they are.

32 Stanghazi  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:35:43pm
33 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:36:34pm

re: #23 researchok

As I noted, if the GOP were truly going to do away with abortion, we'd have seen it at the local level for decades.

I understand the need to keep abortion a hot button issue- it keeps the troops fired up- on both sides.

What rock have you been hiding under? Read post #28. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

34 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:36:47pm

re: #28 publicityStunted

How about the entire state of Oklahoma?

One.

35 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:36:52pm

re: #21 theheat

Thanks. After the election, if you find out I voted for Susana Martinez, you have my permission to kick my ass.

36 theheat  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:37:31pm

re: #28 publicityStunted

And the scratch-and-sniff ultrasounds proposed in Louisiana.

37 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:37:50pm

re: #34 researchok

One.

re: #30 Obdicut

Except in Oklahoma, Tennessee, Mississippi, Arizona, or Louisiana, of course.

[Link: www.truth-out.org...]

Anyway: your contention was that most GOP voters favor pro-choice politicians.

Given that the GOP has banning abortion through a constitutional amendment as a party plank, and 70% of GOP voters are 'pro-life'-- defined as favoring abortion in only a few circumstances if at all-- how do you support that claim?

2, 3, 4, 5...

You are just wrong, researchok.

38 theheat  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:38:32pm

re: #34 researchok

And the proposed ban on abortions in South Dakota a couple years ago.

39 Gus  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:38:39pm

re: #22 SpaceJesus

"hey we don't have any solutions for the economy either, so uh, let's go after women's rights or something, yeah"

-gop 2012

We oppose:

Abortion/Women
American Muslims
Evolution/Science
Gays

GOP™ 2012

40 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:39:00pm

re: #30 Obdicut

Except in Oklahoma, Tennessee, Mississippi, Arizona, or Louisiana, of course.

[Link: www.truth-out.org...]

Anyway: your contention was that most GOP voters favor pro-choice politicians.

Given that the GOP has banning abortion through a constitutional amendment as a party plank, and 70% of GOP voters are 'pro-life'-- defined as favoring abortion in only a few circumstances if at all-- how do you support that claim?

There are State Legislatures under GOP majorities, countless county and other jurisdictions, etc., and have been for decades.

It's all talk.

41 Interesting Times  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:39:13pm

re: #34 researchok

One.

Nope. A hell of lot more where those came from:

Abortion restrictions: States test new tactics

Drip, drip, drip. Or, the "boiling a frog" effect, with the GOP cranking up the heat against women's rights higher, higher, higher...

42 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:39:42pm

re: #40 researchok

There are State Legislatures under GOP majorities, countless county and other jurisdictions, etc., and have been for decades.

It's all talk.

So, apparently, it's all exceptions to the rule? At what point does the "rule" crumble, in your mind?

43 Coracle  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:40:19pm

re: #40 researchok

There are State Legislatures under GOP majorities, countless county and other jurisdictions, etc., and have been for decades.

It's all talk.


That's pretty darn credulous.

44 webevintage  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:41:13pm

re: #41 publicityStunted

Nope. A hell of lot more where those came from:

Abortion restrictions: States test new tactics

Drip, drip, drip. Or, the "boiling a frog" effect, with the GOP cranking up the heat against women's rights higher, higher, higher...

CONSTANT VIGILANCE!
(as a character in Harry Potter often said.)

45 Ojoe  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:41:42pm

There is no truce in politics.

In war, yes.

46 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:41:56pm

re: #41 publicityStunted

Nope. A hell of lot more where those came from:

Abortion restrictions: States test new tactics

Drip, drip, drip. Or, the "boiling a frog" effect, with the GOP cranking up the heat against women's rights higher, higher, higher...

Sorry, but after decades of state houses and local governments dominated by GOP majorities, if all you can show me is a PR piece, you've made my point.

47 iossarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:42:14pm

re: #40 researchok


It's all talk.

Rubbish. How is it "all talk" when you've been presented with specific recent developments restricting a woman's right to have an abortion?

Let me ask you this: if you were a woman living in Oklahoma, would you feel that your right to an abortion was the same, or less, than it was before the legislation?

48 Ojoe  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:43:17pm

The Modern Whig Party.

Looking better all the time™

49 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:43:36pm

re: #42 Fozzie Bear

So, apparently, it's all exceptions to the rule? At what point does the "rule" crumble, in your mind?

A couple of jurisdictions do not a movement make.

By the way, I'm pro choice.

50 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:43:42pm

re: #46 researchok

Sorry, but after decades of state houses and local governments dominated by GOP majorities, if all you can show me is a PR piece, you've made my point.

Why are you so complacent? What do you think about Armey's statement?

51 Interesting Times  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:45:12pm

re: #46 researchok

Sorry, but after decades of state houses and local governments dominated by GOP majorities, if all you can show me is a PR piece, you've made my point.

What the frig? Does the following FACT from that piece mean nothing to you?

So far in 2010, more than a dozen states have enacted or are considering various bills aimed at banning or regulating abortion or funding for it. The actions follow a similar run of legislative activity in 2009.

Why do I have the horrible feeling that if you were a passenger on the Titanic, you'd be saying, "aw c'mon, the iceberg isn't THAT big..." o_O

52 Winny Spencer  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:45:13pm

re: #39 Gus 802

And masturbation.

53 Gus  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:45:29pm

re: #52 Winny Spencer

And masturbation.

How could I forget!

/

54 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:45:35pm

re: #47 iossarian

Rubbish. How is it "all talk" when you've been presented with specific recent developments restricting a woman's right to have an abortion?

Let me ask you this: if you were a woman living in Oklahoma, would you feel that your right to an abortion was the same, or less, than it was before the legislation?

I do not see a mass movement of GOP jurisdictions that have moved to ban abortions. Further, let's be clear- abortions have not been banned in Oklahoma.

55 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:45:38pm

re: #40 researchok

There are State Legislatures under GOP majorities, countless county and other jurisdictions, etc., and have been for decades.

It's all talk.

Well, a lot of these laws get struck down in the Supreme Court after they're passed. And they do get passed, so I really have no clue what you mean by "it's all talk". It's not just talk. It's also real, actual laws.

So, that legislatures don't do more to restrict abortion is partially because of the strong protection Roe vs. Wade offers.

And again: I'm asking you to support your contention that most GOP voters prefer pro-choice candidates. Whether or not the pro-life candidates actually are sincere or just cynically pandering is another question. you stated:

more GOP members think like Frum and other pro choice conservatives than they do Armey.

And I'm asking you to support that claim.

56 Gus  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:46:33pm

An Armey of Dicks

/

57 iossarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:46:39pm

re: #49 researchok

A couple of jurisdictions do not a movement make.

Is this going to turn into one of those "what constitutes proof" threads? Because those are tiresome.


By the way, I'm pro choice.

Good. Do you think the Oklahoma legislature shares your views?

58 HappyWarrior  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:47:03pm

Dick Armey.
What's your wife's name, Vagina Coast Guard.

59 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:47:12pm

re: #51 publicityStunted

What the frig? Does the following FACT from that piece mean nothing to you?

Why do I have the horrible feeling that if you were a passenger on the Titanic, you'd be saying, "aw c'mon, the iceberg isn't THAT big..." o_O

Regulating abortion is not banning abortion.

Much of that regulation has to do with informing parents of a minor's medical needs.

Where is the huge movement of jurisdictions banning abortion?

60 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:47:34pm

re: #48 Ojoe

The Modern Whig Party.

Looking better all the time™

I disagree. From your link:

Abortion

Our members are split on this subject just like the rest of the country. But the bottom line is that this one particular issue should not be the sole basis for which political party people affiliate with. For example, many "pro-choice" voters find themselves agreeing with many traditionally GOP issues while many of those opposed to abortion rights find themselves agreeing with many Democratic issues. Despite this fact, voters too often are pushed to choose one party or the other due to the abortion issue alone. It is time to end the trend of having this one issue become a deal breaker. Each state can determine its course of action like any other public health issue that revolves around medical procedures. The federal government should not get involved or regulate such items as the less involvement by the government in our private lives the better.

In addition, we encourage states to consider additional funding for greater access to adoption for people wishing not to keep a child and for qualified couples or individuals wishing to become parents of adopted children. Responsible safe-haven laws also give people an additional option beyond abortion. We support all policies giving couples additional options beyond abortion, making this practice even more rare.

That's a weak position. There's no principled stance. They're the same way on gay rights. "Let the states decide." I'm all for states' rights, but not for allowing states to remove rights.

61 Ojoe  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:49:00pm

re: #60 wrenchwench

Better than having the feds clamp down in all the states.

62 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:49:07pm

re: #57 iossarian

Is this going to turn into one of those "what constitutes proof" threads? Because those are tiresome.

Good. Do you think the Oklahoma legislature shares your views?

I could care less what the legislature believes.

My contention is that to say the right to an abortion is on the verge of being taken a way is absurd

63 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:49:19pm

re: #59 researchok

Regulating abortion is not banning abortion.

Much of that regulation has to do with informing parents of a minor's medical needs.

Where is the huge movement of jurisdictions banning abortion?

They're chipping away at it. That's on the road to banning. And I object to restrictions on minors getting abortions without informing their parents.

64 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:49:26pm

re: #48 Ojoe

Why is the Whig Party so keen on states rights, especially given cases like Oklahoma's attempt to shame women into not having abortions?

65 What, me worry?  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:50:06pm

re: #59 researchok

Regulating abortion is not banning abortion.

Much of that regulation has to do with informing parents of a minor's medical needs.

Where is the huge movement of jurisdictions banning abortion?

It's not out and out banning. Damaging women's reproductive rights does not just mean ban abortions. The article from the AMA was very clear. It's about cutting funding and restricting access, as in minors must tell their parents, etc.

66 iossarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:50:16pm

re: #59 researchok

Regulating abortion is not banning abortion.

Are you serious? Do you really think these people are going to stop when they've forced women to have a couple of internal examinations and obtained their husband's permission for an abortion?

And then "assigned" a responsible male decision-maker in the case of unmarried women?

And then required parents' permission?

And then grandparents?

I can't believe anyone would be so naive as to think that "regulation" does not have the intent of making abortion harder and harder to obtain.

67 What, me worry?  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:51:12pm

re: #63 wrenchwench

They're chipping away at it. That's on the road to banning. And I object to restrictions on minors getting abortions without informing their parents.

Ooo I was gonna upding, but I was unclear.

You are for or against parental consent for minors?

68 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:51:12pm

re: #61 Ojoe

Better than having the feds clamp down in all the states.

I disagree. If the feds did that, we pro-choicers would fight back. I'm not going to support an attempted political party that won't stand up for individual liberty for women and gay people.

69 recusancy  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:51:21pm

re: #61 Ojoe

Better than having the feds clamp down in all the states.

In this situation clamping down refers to protecting minority rights.

70 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:51:30pm

re: #62 researchok

My contention is that to say the right to an abortion is on the verge of being taken a way is absurd

Nobody has claimed the right to an abortion is on the verge of being taken away.

However, you made the following contention:

more GOP members think like Frum and other pro choice conservatives than they do Armey.

Which is essentially a claim that more GOP members are pro-chocie than pro-life.

Can you support that claim?

71 Gus  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:51:39pm

Bomb alert: Eiffel Tower. It has been evacuated and police are on the scene with sniffer dogs.

72 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:51:40pm

re: #64 Obdicut

Why is the Whig Party so keen on states rights, especially given cases like Oklahoma's attempt to shame women into not having abortions?

It's just a beard for a larger socon movement. If the GOP were really all about state's rights, they wouldn't have such a problem with gay marriage, and wouldn't have felt the need for the DOMA. It's a bullshit tactic designed to defray responsibility for abhorrent positions on issues.

73 darthstar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:51:41pm

More Teabagger class...Float depicting President Obama whipping a white future taxpayer.

74 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:51:41pm

re: #55 Obdicut

Well, a lot of these laws get struck down in the Supreme Court after they're passed. And they do get passed, so I really have no clue what you mean by "it's all talk". It's not just talk. It's also real, actual laws.

So, that legislatures don't do more to restrict abortion is partially because of the strong protection Roe vs. Wade offers.

And again: I'm asking you to support your contention that most GOP voters prefer pro-choice candidates. Whether or not the pro-life candidates actually are sincere or just cynically pandering is another question. you stated:

And I'm asking you to support that claim.

That claim is easily supported.

If the majority of GOP members wanted to strike down abortion in the state legislatures they control, they would have. Same applies to counties.

There is no groundswell to overturn Roe v Wade.

This is election cycle noise. It's been going on for decades.

75 RadicalModerate  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:52:36pm

re: #39 Gus 802

We oppose:

Abortion/Women
American Muslims
Evolution/Science
Gays

GOP™ 2012


Reposting a comment I made in Thanos' LGF Pages thread regarding creationism in some form or another being on the ballot in a half dozen states in November, because the video really needs to be seen:

-------
For those of you curious as to how a "teach the controversy" class would be handled, the BBC did a documentary called "Science Friction : Creation" that actually went into a Dayton, Tennessee classroom where the "science" teacher (I put this in quotes because he's very much a creationist) claims to give evolutionary theory "a fair shake" The money quote that comes from a student at the end reveals one facet of this debate that gets far too little exposure in the US:
"How can like, an African-American person evolve from a white person?"

Keep in mind that the documentary is only a little over ten years old, so the only faces that have changed from then to today are those of the students.

76 yasharki  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:53:24pm

I never got involved in abortion debate, but am getting interested with age.

Just a quick question, when pro-life people propose bans on abortions, do they at the same time propose state&|fed support for a potential mother who is forced to consider such option due to her financial&|life situation? Or are they saying "have a child and deal with it"?

77 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:53:49pm

re: #61 Ojoe

Better than having the feds clamp down in all the states.

You mean it's better that individual states have the opportunity to deny basic rights offered by the constitution, and at times, reconfirmed by the Supreme Court of the United States, than to allow the Federal government to intervene when certain states decide to deny those rights to it's citizens.

Didn't we fight some sort of war in the 1860's over something like that... help me remember?

78 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:53:51pm

re: #18 researchok

Sorry, that's just noise, designed to feed a portion of the base some political pablum. There hasn't been a serious assault on abortion in decades. Even SCOTUS appointees view abortion as 'settled law'.

If abortion were truly under attack, we'd have heard about on the local level for decades.

That just is not the case.

Show me the mass assault on abortion by local governments.

You have

no idea what you are talking about


How on earth can a thinking person possibly say there has been no assault on abortion in decades?

here is Bobby Jindal's most RECENT assault on abortion, which is essentially mandated rape to punish women who want an abortion: [Link: www.rhrealitycheck.org...]

Women getting abortions in Louisiana will be required to get ultrasounds, and doctors who perform elective abortions won't be covered under medical malpractice laws after Gov. Bobby Jindal signed those latest restrictions on the procedure into law Tuesday.

Also signed by Jindal, according to the governor's office, was a ban on coverage for elective abortions in the insurance purchasing pools set up by the federal health overhaul legislation.

No exceptions are allowed under any of the bills for victims of rape or incest. The only exceptions are for abortions when a mother's life is in danger.

You are so very very in denial, dude

It's all about the party, I guess, just deny and minimize and apologize and distract and who cares if women are raped again as mandated by Bobby Jindal, outta sight, outta mind

79 webevintage  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:53:59pm

re: #59 researchok

Regulating abortion is not banning abortion.

Maybe not.
But regulation like those recently passed stink of making sure the "little woman knows what she is doing and can we make it as fucking annoying and shameful to get an abortion as we can?" as a way to slowly move forward with more and more onerous regulations.

Plus, dammit I have a right to do with my womb what I please and it is not business of the State in which I reside, nor should I have to put up with restrictive regulations based on what part of the country I just happen to be living.

80 iossarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:54:10pm

re: #76 yasharki

Upding for &|.

81 RogueOne  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:54:36pm

re: #74 researchok

That claim is easily supported.

If the majority of GOP members wanted to strike down abortion in the state legislatures they control, they would have. Same applies to counties.

There is no groundswell to overturn Roe v Wade.

This is election cycle noise. It's been going on for decades.

Puh-lease, next you'll be telling me they're not going to take away my guns either or that grandma isn't going to have to start eating dog food.

82 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:54:37pm

Official GOP positions on abortion:

* 2008: "Faithful to the first guarantee of the Declaration of Independence, we assert the inherent dignity and sanctity of all human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution, and we endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment’s protections apply to unborn children. We oppose using public revenues to promote or perform abortion and will not fund organizations which advocate it. We support the appointment of judges who respect traditional family values and the sanctity and dignity of innocent human life...."[53]
* 2004: "As a country, we must keep our pledge to the first guarantee of the Declaration of Independence. That is why we say the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and we endorse legislation to make it clear that the Fourteenth Amendment’s protections apply to unborn children. Our purpose is to have legislative and judicial protection of that right against those who perform abortions. We oppose using public revenues for abortion and will not fund organizations which advocate it. We support the appointment of judges who respect traditional family values and the sanctity of innocent human life." [54]
* 2000: "Ban abortion with Constitutional amendment. We say the unborn child has a fundamental right to life. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and we endorse legislation that the 14th Amendment’s protections apply to unborn children. Our purpose is to have legislative and judicial protection of that right against those who perform abortions. We oppose using public revenues for abortion and will not fund organizations which advocate it. We support the appointment of judges who respect the sanctity of innocent human life." [55]
* 2000: "Alternatives like adoption, instead of punitive action. Our goal is to ensure that women with problem pregnancies have the kind of support, material and otherwise, they need for themselves and for their babies, not to be punitive towards those for whose difficult situation we have only compassion. We oppose abortion, but our pro-life agenda does not include punitive action against women who have an abortion. We salute those who provide alternatives to abortion and offer adoption services." [55]

Frum might agree with you, researchok, but the GOP doesn't.

83 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:54:48pm

re: #66 iossarian

Are you serious? Do you really think these people are going to stop when they've forced women to have a couple of internal examinations and obtained their husband's permission for an abortion?

And then "assigned" a responsible male decision-maker in the case of unmarried women?

And then required parents' permission?

And then grandparents?

I can't believe anyone would be so naive as to think that "regulation" does not have the intent of making abortion harder and harder to obtain.

Not germane. None of what you are implying is on the table.

The issue of parent notification is one worth discussing. There are pros and cons.

Disagreeing with one side of a particular issue under debate (e.g., parental notification) or the other does invalidate a position.

84 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:54:52pm

re: #48 Ojoe

The Modern Whig Party.

Looking better all the time™


You talk about the "whigs" but you reliably vote republican

85 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:54:59pm

re: #62 researchok

I could care less what the legislature believes.

My contention is that to say the right to an abortion is on the verge of being taken a way is absurd

The right to have an abortion after submitting to and paying for an ultrasound is not the same as a right to have an abortion without an ultrasound.

It's not "election cycle noise" when they're working on it all year round, every year.

86 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:55:28pm

re: #67 marjoriemoon

Ooo I was gonna upding, but I was unclear.

You are for or against parental consent for minors?

I am against a parental consent requirement.

87 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:55:50pm

If the official GOP party platform doesn't convince you, nothing will.

88 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:56:00pm

re: #82 Fozzie Bear

Official GOP positions on abortion:

Frum might agree with you, researchok, but the GOP doesn't.

Like I said, the GOP controls a lot of state houses and local jurisdictions.

There has been no great movement to banning abortions.

89 RogueOne  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:56:26pm

re: #86 wrenchwench

I am against a parental consent requirement.

In all cases?

90 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:56:29pm

re: #67 marjoriemoon

Ooo I was gonna upding, but I was unclear.

You are for or against parental consent for minors?

That was an uninterpretable sentence, wasn't it. Sorry.

91 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:56:49pm

re: #74 researchok

That claim is easily supported.

If the majority of GOP members wanted to strike down abortion in the state legislatures they control, they would have. Same applies to counties.

There is no groundswell to overturn Roe v Wade.

This is election cycle noise. It's been going on for decades.

If you know anything at all about the abortion battle, you know this:

You can make it impossible and prohibitive or so painful for women to get abortions in a state without overturning roe versus wade


And the denial continues

I'm not a big fan of denial!

92 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:57:04pm

re: #87 Fozzie Bear

If the official GOP party platform doesn't convince you, nothing will.

The GOP- like the Democrats- are made up of many groups and factions.

I am sure I might find a few items in the Dem platform that might rankle a efw Dems.

93 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:57:45pm

re: #74 researchok

That claim is easily supported.

If the majority of GOP members wanted to strike down abortion in the state legislatures they control, they would have.

Except that it is constitutionally protected by Roe Vs. Wade, so they can't. They still do pass laws restricting abortion that are overturned.

Your litmus test is incredibly strange.

You are seriously claiming that a majority of GOP members are secretly pro-choice?


There is no groundswell to overturn Roe v Wade.

[Link: ballotpedia.org...]

[Link: www.lifesitenews.com...]

It's a Supreme Court decision, so it can't be overturned. But there certainly is hearty opposition to it in the GOP base.


This is election cycle noise. It's been going on for decades.

It certainly is election cycle rhetoric. That doesn't mean it doesn't have real-world effects.

94 Gus  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:57:51pm

Don't worry folks. If any clarification is needed I'm sure Michael Steele will speak up.

//

95 iossarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:57:54pm

re: #83 researchok

Not germane. None of what you are implying is on the table.

The issue of parent notification is one worth discussing. There are pros and cons.

Disagreeing with one side of a particular issue under debate (e.g., parental notification) or the other does invalidate a position.

What are you talking about? Legislatures are requiring internal examinations before abortions! And then you go on and admit that parental notification is very much "on the table". As in, it is a mainstream Republican position to require parental notification before carrying out an abortion.

96 yasharki  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:57:58pm

re: #80 iossarian

Upding for &|.

"Upding"?

97 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:57:59pm

re: #88 researchok

Like I said, the GOP controls a lot of state houses and local jurisdictions.

There has been no great movement to banning abortions.



in 2002, 84% of state Democratic platforms supported abortion while 88% of state Republican platforms opposed it.

Sometimes, you are just wrong, and there's no shame in admitting that all the evidence contradicts your claim. This is one of those times.

98 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:58:08pm

re: #88 researchok

Like I said, the GOP controls a lot of state houses and local jurisdictions.

There has been no great movement to banning abortions.

You don't have to ban abortions on the federal level to make it impossible to get an abortion on the state level


How you don't seem to understand this, I can't imagine

Your purported advanced degrees you claim to have, they're sounding less and less likely all the time

99 webevintage  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:58:37pm

re: #64 Obdicut

Why is the Whig Party so keen on states rights, especially given cases like Oklahoma's attempt to shame women into not having abortions?

I have no idea.
Supporting "state's rights" is support for state's to take away individual rights from women and minorities and gays.

100 iossarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:58:46pm

re: #96 yasharki

"Upding"?

The green plus button?

101 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:58:57pm

re: #97 Fozzie Bear


in 2002, 84% of state Democratic platforms supported abortion while 88% of state Republican platforms opposed it.

Sometimes, you are just wrong, and there's no shame in admitting that all the evidence contradicts your claim. This is one of those times.

And when they can't deny anymore

They still do!

102 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:59:01pm

re: #91 WindUpBird

If you know anything at all about the abortion battle, you know this:

You can make it impossible and prohibitive or so painful for women to get abortions in a state without overturning roe versus wade

And the denial continues

I'm not a big fan of denial!

And where has that happened in great numbers? Have great numbers of abortion clinics been shut down in OK?

103 HappyWarrior  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 12:59:37pm

The cynic in me feels that the leadership of both parties uses this issue to get their bases riled up. The Republicans will be like the Democrats want to kill babies and their voters will show up and the Democrats will be like the Democrats want to take away your right to choose and their votes show up too. Honestly, I don't know how one way or the other to feel about the issue. I do know that I dislike and distrust the activists on both sides. All I wish simply is that we help poor, unwed, and young mothers out and not pull a Sharron Angle and use the tired lemonaide cliche with women.

104 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:00:02pm

re: #96 yasharki

"Upding"?

there's a zero, then a minus, then a plus, then a heart, then an exclamation point on the right side of your post

that zero is the number of updings, the minus is a downding, the plus is an upding, the heart is a "favorite" and the exclamation point reports the post as abusive.

105 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:00:14pm

re: #97 Fozzie Bear


in 2002, 84% of state Democratic platforms supported abortion while 88% of state Republican platforms opposed it.

Sometimes, you are just wrong, and there's no shame in admitting that all the evidence contradicts your claim. This is one of those times.

Of course you are right.

So many states and local jurisdictions have banned abortions altogether. It must be hard for you to keep up.

/

106 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:00:22pm

re: #23 researchok

As I noted, if the GOP were truly going to do away with abortion, we'd have seen it at the local level for decades.

I understand the need to keep abortion a hot button issue- it keeps the troops fired up- on both sides.

Problem with playing with this sort of fire is that these promises are going to be called in at some point in the form of legislation or serious attemts to overturn Roe vs Wade

107 RadicalModerate  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:00:41pm

re: #71 Gus 802

Bomb alert: Eiffel Tower. It has been evacuated and police are on the scene with sniffer dogs.

And I'm going to hell over the fact that the first thing I thought of when I heard this story was "Superman II".

108 recusancy  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:01:08pm

re: #99 webevintage

I have no idea.
Supporting "state's rights" is support for state's to take away individual rights from women and minorities and gays.

You start out in 1954 by saying, "n*****, n*****, n*****." By 1968 you can't say "n*****"—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites.

109 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:01:14pm

re: #102 researchok

And where has that happened in great numbers? Have great numbers of abortion clinics been shut down in OK?


[Link: www.alternet.org...]

Consider the challenges a woman in Missouri now faces. There is now only one provider in the entire state, so unless she's lucky enough to live in St. Louis, she will have to travel, perhaps 100 miles or more, to even reach an abortion provider. That is the case for one in five patients at the clinic in St. Louis.


When I can hand you your butt in an argument by googling for something for FIVE SECONDS, you fail

110 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:01:40pm

re: #89 RogueOne

In all cases?

Yes. I tried to think of a case where a girl needs an abortion and should not have it because her parents weren't notified, and I can't think of one. Ideally, the parents would be the second or third folks to know about it, but if a thirteen year old who was raped by her father wants an abortion, I don't think there should be anything in her way.

111 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:02:29pm

re: #102 researchok

There are three in the entire state, I believe.

[Link: www.abortion.com...]

Planned Parenthood has five clinics, but I don't think they do abortions, I think they refer them.

So there's really not that many to close down.

There are far more 'pregnancy advice' centers where, if a woman who's pregnant comes to them for advice, will attempt to shame, humiliate, guilt, and scare here into not getting an abortion. Including using fake, debunked scientific statistics about harm caused by abortion.

Real-world effects.

112 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:02:33pm

re: #105 researchok

Of course you are right.

So many states and local jurisdictions have banned abortions altogether. It must be hard for you to keep up.

/

They haven't because they can't, because of the existence of Roe V. Wade. That doesn't mean that they haven't made every possible effort to chip away at that right by making abortions difficult or impossible to obtain.

But of course, you know that, and are dissembling, as is incredibly obvious to anyone reading this thread.

113 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:02:44pm

re: #109 WindUpBird

[Link: www.alternet.org...]


When I can hand you your butt in an argument by googling for something for FIVE SECONDS, you fail

CHALLENGES? And have all those challenges been adjudicated and been appealed?

In any event, has abortion been banned in MO?

114 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:03:37pm

re: #102 researchok

And where has that happened in great numbers? Have great numbers of abortion clinics been shut down in OK?

If you want to know how Oklahoma is doing, the answer is not well:

ANTI-CHOICE LAWS
Abortion Bans

Oklahoma has unconstitutional and unenforceable criminal bans on abortion.
Details »
Biased Counseling & Mandatory Delay

Oklahoma law subjects women seeking abortion services to biased-counseling requirements and mandatory delays.
Details »
Counseling Ban/Gag Rule

Oklahoma prohibits certain state employees and organizations receiving state funds from counseling or referring women for abortion services.
Details »
Insurance Prohibition for Abortion

Oklahoma restricts insurance coverage of abortion.
Details »
Public Facilities and Employees Restriction

Oklahoma prohibits the use of all public facilities and public employees for abortion services.
Details »
Refusal to Provide Medical Services

Oklahoma allows certain individuals or entities to refuse to provide women specific reproductive-health services, information, or referrals.
Details »
Restrictions on Low-Income Women's Access to Abortion

Oklahoma restricts low-income women's access to abortion.
Details »
Restrictions on Young Women's Access to Abortion

Oklahoma law restricts young women's access to abortion services by mandating parental notice and consent.
Details »
Targeted Regulation of Abortion Providers (TRAP)

Oklahoma prohibits certain qualified health-care professionals from providing abortion care, and has an unconstitutional and unenforceable law that subjects abortion providers to burdensome restrictions not applied to other medical professionals.
Details »

115 iossarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:03:40pm

re: #105 researchok

Of course you are right.

So many states and local jurisdictions have banned abortions altogether. It must be hard for you to keep up.

/

It's getting hard to believe you're not being disingenuous here. You've been presented with several examples of Republican legislatures placing restrictions on abortion. This is the evidence that Republican politicians are anti-abortion.

At this point you either have to claim that restricting abortion doesn't make someone anti-abortion (which seems pretty weak) or somehow deny that the examples given are truly restrictions on abortion (which also seems unlikely).

Which is it?

116 What, me worry?  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:04:21pm

re: #86 wrenchwench

I am against a parental consent requirement.

I thought so. Me too.

117 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:04:31pm

re: #111 Obdicut

There are three in the entire state, I believe.

[Link: www.abortion.com...]

Planned Parenthood has five clinics, but I don't think they do abortions, I think they refer them.

So there's really not that many to close down.

There are far more 'pregnancy advice' centers where, if a woman who's pregnant comes to them for advice, will attempt to shame, humiliate, guilt, and scare here into not getting an abortion. Including using fake, debunked scientific statistics about harm caused by abortion.

Real-world effects.

I'm just so tired of people lying through their teeth at me on issues that are so easily researched

118 RogueOne  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:04:35pm

re: #110 wrenchwench

Yes. I tried to think of a case where a girl needs an abortion and should not have it because her parents weren't notified, and I can't think of one. Ideally, the parents would be the second or third folks to know about it, but if a thirteen year old who was raped by her father wants an abortion, I don't think there should be anything in her way.

In the case of family abuse/incest I would agree, otoh, If parents have to give consent for any medical procedure then an abortion should certainly be covered.

119 webevintage  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:04:52pm

re: #76 yasharki

I never got involved in abortion debate, but am getting interested with age.

Just a quick question, when pro-life people propose bans on abortions, do they at the same time propose state&|fed support for a potential mother who is forced to consider such option due to her financial&|life situation? Or are they saying "have a child and deal with it"?

It depends.
Conservative GOP types are more like "you made your bed now lie in it", while your more "seamless garment" social justice types want to both end abortion and support gov.'t programs (welfare, section 8, food stamps, medicade, ect.) that make life easier for folks who keep their children.

120 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:04:55pm

re: #113 researchok

CHALLENGES? And have all those challenges been adjudicated and been appealed?

In any event, has abortion been banned in MO?

I am done with you, fool

121 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:05:08pm

re: #71 Gus 802

Bomb alert: Eiffel Tower. It has been evacuated and police are on the scene with sniffer dogs.

The French government just banned the full veil... I suspect this is a reaction to that... actually, from what I have been reading in Le Monde, they have been expecting a uptick in these sort of threats, considering the recent crackdowns in the suburbs of Muslims protesting and now this full-veil ban

122 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:05:13pm

re: #112 Fozzie Bear

They haven't because they can't, because of the existence of Roe V. Wade. That doesn't mean that they haven't made every possible effort to chip away at that right by making abortions difficult or impossible to obtain.

But of course, you know that, and are dissembling, as is incredibly obvious to anyone reading this thread.

As a pro choice conservative, I am fascinated by all this 'sky is falling' hysteria.

Yes, notwithstanding the realities that abortion is still legal and available, I'm the one disassembling.
/

123 RogueOne  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:05:22pm

re: #114 WindUpBird

When did you move to Oklahoma?

124 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:05:24pm

re: #113 researchok

CHALLENGES? And have all those challenges been adjudicated and been appealed?

In any event, has abortion been banned in MO?


They are out to overturn Roe vs. Wade, until then they will overturn as many operating tables as they have to to keep abortions from being performed.

125 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:05:38pm

re: #112 Fozzie Bear

They haven't because they can't, because of the existence of Roe V. Wade. That doesn't mean that they haven't made every possible effort to chip away at that right by making abortions difficult or impossible to obtain.

But of course, you know that, and are dissembling, as is incredibly obvious to anyone reading this thread.

You just can't argue with wingnuts

these are not honest people, these are not people who want to exchange information

126 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:05:51pm

re: #118 RogueOne

In the case of family abuse/incest I would agree, otoh, If parents have to give consent for any medical procedure then an abortion should certainly be covered exempted.

FTFMe.

127 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:06:03pm

re: #122 researchok

How available is it in Missouri?


Consider the challenges a woman in Missouri now faces. There is now only one provider in the entire state, so unless she's lucky enough to live in St. Louis, she will have to travel, perhaps 100 miles or more, to even reach an abortion provider. That is the case for one in five patients at the clinic in St. Louis.
128 iossarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:06:52pm

re: #122 researchok

As a pro choice conservative, I am fascinated by all this 'sky is falling' hysteria.

Yes, notwithstanding the realities that abortion is still legal and available, I'm the one disassembling.
/

Do you think that parental consent should be required before an abortion, if the woman is under 18?

What about in the case of parental rape?

129 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:06:52pm

re: #27 SpaceJesus

lol wtf is this

I'm still shaking my head.

130 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:07:00pm

re: #122 researchok

As a pro choice conservative, I am fascinated by all this 'sky is falling' hysteria.

Yes, notwithstanding the realities that abortion is still legal and available, I'm the one disassembling.
/

You let me know when a governor signs a law mandating that a painful rod be twisted up your ass as retaliation for getting a constitutionally protected medical procedure

You let me know when that happens :)

131 RogueOne  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:07:17pm

re: #126 wrenchwench

FTFMe.

What other invasive medical procedures would you be ok with a doctor performing on your child without your knowledge? Should breast implants also get a pass from parental notification?

132 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:07:30pm

re: #122 researchok

As a pro choice conservative, I am fascinated by all this 'sky is falling' hysteria.

I'm pretty insulted that you are calling people citing actual cases of legislation restricting abortion as 'sky is falling hysteria'.

133 lostlakehiker  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:07:31pm

I went and read the article. There is nothing there about anything to do with abortion inside the U.S. It's an article about international aid. There's a political dispute in the U.S. over whether it should be U.S. policy to use taxes on U.S. citizens to fund abortions in other nations.

Whether women in, say, Mexico have a right to such U.S. taxpayer money for this purpose is surely not a question that has one right answer.

The bill prohibits U.S. organizations that get taxpayer funds to help them do some part of their work abroad from using any of their own money to fund abortions, or to lobby the government on the topic.

The thinking is that money is fungible, so that if they use their own money on abortion, and federal money on some other health service, it's the same as if they used federal money on abortion and their own money on the other.

The religious right in the U.S. is no more happy about being taxed to pay for abortion than the Islamic community in the U.S. would be to pay for publicly funded Quran burnings. While there may be nothing inherently wrong in abortion, or in burning that book, doing so with public money twists the knife.

134 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:07:55pm

re: #131 RogueOne

What other invasive medical procedures would you be ok with a doctor performing on your child without your knowledge? Should breast implants also get a pass from parental notification?

Is there any difference between breast implants and abortions that you can think of, Rogue?

135 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:08:05pm

re: #114 WindUpBird

If you want to know how Oklahoma is doing, the answer is not well:

ANTI-CHOICE LAWS
Abortion Bans

Oklahoma has unconstitutional and unenforceable criminal bans on abortion.
Details »
Biased Counseling & Mandatory Delay

Oklahoma law subjects women seeking abortion services to biased-counseling requirements and mandatory delays.
Details »
Counseling Ban/Gag Rule

Oklahoma prohibits certain state employees and organizations receiving state funds from counseling or referring women for abortion services.
Details »
Insurance Prohibition for Abortion

Oklahoma restricts insurance coverage of abortion.
Details »
Public Facilities and Employees Restriction

Oklahoma prohibits the use of all public facilities and public employees for abortion services.
Details »
Refusal to Provide Medical Services

Oklahoma allows certain individuals or entities to refuse to provide women specific reproductive-health services, information, or referrals.
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Restrictions on Low-Income Women's Access to Abortion

Oklahoma restricts low-income women's access to abortion.
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Restrictions on Young Women's Access to Abortion

Oklahoma law restricts young women's access to abortion services by mandating parental notice and consent.
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Targeted Regulation of Abortion Providers (TRAP)

Oklahoma prohibits certain qualified health-care professionals from providing abortion care, and has an unconstitutional and unenforceable law that subjects abortion providers to burdensome restrictions not applied to other medical professionals.
Details »

So what?

Abortion is still legal in OK, these laws will be appealed (as they have been elsewhere) and the status quo will return.

Further, the principle OK restriction on abortion is teh pre procedure counseling.

136 Coracle  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:08:16pm

re: #88 researchok

Like I said, the GOP controls a lot of state houses and local jurisdictions.

There has been no great movement to banning abortions.

Heh. I've never been Godwinesque before, but you know...

I think that because Hamas hasn't y'know, actually been trying to destroy Israel with every action they've taken, we can safely ignore that part of their platform and start talking to them.

/

137 iossarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:08:47pm

re: #131 RogueOne

What other invasive medical procedures would you be ok with a doctor performing on your child without your knowledge? Should breast implants also get a pass from parental notification?

If your daughter finds the money and then gets breast implants without your knowledge (and presumably despite your disapproval), you've got bigger problems than the medical procedure, IMO.

138 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:08:49pm

re: #122 researchok

As a pro choice conservative, I am fascinated by all this 'sky is falling' hysteria.

Yes, notwithstanding the realities that abortion is still legal and available, I'm the one disassembling.
/

Apparently you have not recently tried to obtain an abortion in rural America. Even in urban America, it's getting more difficult. Have some sympathy. Don't be so lukewarm in your pro-choice-ness.

139 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:08:56pm

re: #132 Obdicut

I'm pretty insulted that you are calling people citing actual cases of legislation restricting abortion as 'sky is falling hysteria'.

Challenges do not law make.

That is my point.

140 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:09:06pm

re: #118 RogueOne

In the case of family abuse/incest I would agree, otoh, If parents have to give consent for any medical procedure then an abortion should certainly be covered.

Abortion is not the same as getting a broken leg or hives, it carries with it very specific social implications and stigma

It's really not at all intellectually honest to lump an abortion in with dental work or an ear infection.

141 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:09:25pm

re: #131 RogueOne

What other invasive medical procedures would you be ok with a doctor performing on your child without your knowledge? Should breast implants also get a pass from parental notification?

Breast implants should be banned entirely.

/

142 yasharki  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:09:28pm

re: #100 iossarian

The green plus button?

Pardon a newcomer, I thought "+1" is what you meant, but clicking "new comments" doesn't seem to update comment rating. Thanks to #104, cleared things up for me.

143 webevintage  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:09:31pm

re: #133 lostlakehiker

While there may be nothing inherently wrong in abortion, or in burning that book, doing so with public money twists the knife.

Puh-lese.
Anti-choice folks are the biggest bunch of whiners.
We ALL pay taxes and we all have our taxes spent on things we would prefer the not being spent on.
What makes abortion and family planning services any different?

144 RogueOne  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:09:45pm

re: #134 Obdicut

Is there any difference between breast implants and abortions that you can think of, Rogue?

They're both medical procedures. Other than a case of family abuse there isn't any justification for not having the parents notified.

145 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:09:47pm

re: #139 researchok

Challenges do not law make.

That is my point.

This is happening to real people

Nice of you to ignore that

146 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:09:49pm

re: #136 Coracle

Heh. I've never been Godwinesque before, but you know...

I think that because Hamas hasn't y'know, actually been trying to destroy Israel with every action they've taken, we can safely ignore that part of their platform and start talking to them.

/

There is a whole lot about Hamas you don't seem to know about.

147 Jack Burton  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:10:05pm

re: #71 Gus 802

Bomb alert: Eiffel Tower. It has been evacuated and police are on the scene with sniffer dogs.

Maybe this will result in General Zod being released from the Phantom Zone just like the movie!

/

148 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:10:35pm

re: #144 RogueOne

They're both medical procedures. Other than a case of family abuse there isn't any justification for not having the parents notified.

And how do you propose to determine whether there is a case of family abuse?

149 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:10:46pm

re: #144 RogueOne

They're both medical procedures. Other than a case of family abuse there isn't any justification for not having the parents notified.

And

A) How do you tell if it's case of parental abuse beforehand?

B) What if the parental abuse would occur because of the notification of the abortion?

150 iossarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:10:52pm

re: #142 yasharki

Pardon a newcomer, I thought "+1" is what you meant, but clicking "new comments" doesn't seem to update comment rating. Thanks to #104, cleared things up for me.

Sorry if you thought my response was curt! I was just trying to explain as well.

151 Coracle  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:10:52pm

re: #146 researchok

There is a whole lot about Hamas you don't seem to know about.

There's a whole lot about your party you seem to be ignoring.

152 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:11:13pm

re: #145 WindUpBird

This is happening to real people

Nice of you to ignore that

If you were only this passionate about current fiscal policies that have affected so many real people as well- including the lives of your children and grandchildren as well.

153 RogueOne  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:11:55pm

re: #140 WindUpBird

Abortion is not the same as getting a broken leg or hives, it carries with it very specific social implications and stigma

It's really not at all intellectually honest to lump an abortion in with dental work or an ear infection.

It absolutely is a valid argument. If you're going to argue that an abortion is a god given right of privacy then how can you argue against any other medical procedure? Do kids have the right to have operations without parental consent or not? I say not.

154 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:12:04pm

re: #139 researchok

Challenges do not law make.

That is my point.

The ability to get an abortion, the actual, real-world ability to exercise that right, has been made vastly more difficult in a large number of places.

Why are you ignoring that?

Your claim is that the courts will fix it all, and in the future it'll be better? Missouri will stop passing anti-abortion laws and abortion clinics will move back into the state?

Why do you believe that?

155 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:12:09pm

re: #149 Obdicut

And

A) How do you tell if it's case of parental abuse beforehand?

B) What if the parental abuse would occur because of the notification of the abortion?

Yes, those were the issues I was referring to earlier.

They really do merit serious conversation.

156 HappyWarrior  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:12:12pm

Parental consent laws sound iffy to me. I understand the intention of such laws but I don't know honestly. What do you do if there's a teenaged girl who is raped but has devoutly religious parents who want her to have the child and she does not.

157 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:12:21pm

re: #139 researchok

Challenges do not law make.

That is my point.

But that isn't the point you made up above, at all. The goalposts have moved so many times in this thread you aren't even near the stadium anymore.

158 RogueOne  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:12:37pm

re: #148 wrenchwench

And how do you propose to determine whether there is a case of family abuse?

Well, an accusation would be a start.

159 What, me worry?  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:13:02pm

re: #131 RogueOne

What other invasive medical procedures would you be ok with a doctor performing on your child without your knowledge? Should breast implants also get a pass from parental notification?

No other medical procedure is like this. You're talking about the possible birth of another human being. Not breast implants, not a nose job, not back surgery.

A woman of any age, young or old, should be able to have a legal abortion, at least under 3 months gestation, with the consent of NO one. Not a husband, not a boyfriend, not a parent. I don't care if she's 11. She's old enough to have sex, she's old enough to make up her mind about her own reproductive choices.

160 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:13:15pm

re: #138 wrenchwench

Apparently you have not recently tried to obtain an abortion in rural America. Even in urban America, it's getting more difficult. Have some sympathy. Don't be so lukewarm in your pro-choice-ness.

There is no way anyone who is really honestly pro-choice and informed about it would lie so much and deceive so much about the state of abortion access in America

He's a partisan who uses the label "pro-choice' to attempt to portray an image as a thinking moderate, deflect some critcism, get some good will, but it's just not being borne out by his words, it's a facade


Not honest, not real, not at all

161 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:13:21pm

re: #153 RogueOne

It absolutely is a valid argument. If you're going to argue that an abortion is a god given right of privacy then how can you argue against any other medical procedure? Do kids have the right to have operations without parental consent or not? I say not.

I think kids should have the right to, say, drug abuse treatment without parental consent, as well.

I believe in a lot of rights for kids. Parenthood to me is a lot more about responsibility than it is rights.

162 webevintage  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:13:23pm

If this was a prefect world then all parents would be caring and understanding and supportive of their teens.
But this is not and even folks who are decent parents can go nuts over teens having sex, pregnancy and abortion.
because this is a fact of life we should allow teenagers to get abortions without having to inform their parents.

163 iossarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:13:34pm

re: #152 researchok

If you were only this passionate about current fiscal policies that have affected so many real people as well- including the lives of your children and grandchildren as well.

Oh, bullshit. I thought deficits didn't matter, anyway.

And it's "your children's children". Otherwise it doesn't have the same rhetorical effect.

164 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:13:52pm

re: #155 researchok

Well, A) makes it actually a practical impossibility, so I'm really not sure what conversation there is to have.

165 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:14:20pm

re: #152 researchok

If you were only this passionate about current fiscal policies that have affected so many real people as well- including the lives of your children and grandchildren as well.

ahahahaha

Tell me more about your amazing assertion that I should trust the US Chamber of Commerce's pet economist when he says the bush tax cuts help poor people

166 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:15:22pm

There is one point that I find rather touchy, despite all my pro-choice sentiments.

If we use the argument that an abortion is a private and personal matter that the government cannot interfere in, then one can make the argument that the government also has no obligation to make it accessible to those who do come to choose it.

I have thought about that a lot, and can understand the argument that we chould not force those who oppose abortion on moral grounds to support it directly or indirectly through taxation.

167 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:15:26pm

re: #154 Obdicut

The ability to get an abortion, the actual, real-world ability to exercise that right, has been made vastly more difficult in a large number of places.

Why are you ignoring that?

Your claim is that the courts will fix it all, and in the future it'll be better? Missouri will stop passing anti-abortion laws and abortion clinics will move back into the state?

Why do you believe that?


if only I could put this in 50 point blinking type

168 abbyadams  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:15:56pm

Dick Armey: driving Democrats to the polls since...

169 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:16:21pm

re: #154 Obdicut

The ability to get an abortion, the actual, real-world ability to exercise that right, has been made vastly more difficult in a large number of places.

Why are you ignoring that?

Your claim is that the courts will fix it all, and in the future it'll be better? Missouri will stop passing anti-abortion laws and abortion clinics will move back into the state?

Why do you believe that?

Because it has happened in the past. When challenged, courts have uniformly rules in favor of a woman's right to choose.

Understand I am pro choice. I believe the obsession over abortion (by both sides) is not only a waste of time but unhealthy as well. Abortion is not the issue of our times.

Especially with the take no prisoners attitude.

I recall when Hillary Clinton said that abortion was a tragedy and that there were too many abortions, the hard left went wild.

That's just crazy.

170 yasharki  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:16:46pm

re: #119 webevintage

It depends.
Conservative GOP types are more like "you made your bed now lie in it", while your more "seamless garment" social justice types want to both end abortion and support gov.'t programs (welfare, section 8, food stamps, medicade, ect.) that make life easier for folks who keep their children.

I was just asking a question, how did you managed to bundle me with some types? I didn't mean to imply support for either side, just a question...

171 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:16:56pm

re: #160 WindUpBird

There is no way anyone who is really honestly pro-choice and informed about it would lie so much and deceive so much about the state of abortion access in America

He's a partisan who uses the label "pro-choice' to attempt to portray an image as a thinking moderate, deflect some critcism, get some good will, but it's just not being borne out by his words, it's a facade

Not honest, not real, not at all

So now this is about me?

Interesting.

172 What, me worry?  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:17:04pm

re: #168 abbyadams

Dick Armey: driving Democrats to the polls since...

hehehee!!

I don't know. I'd rather stick a red hot poker in my eye than talk about abortion.

Or Dick Armey.

What a way to ruin an otherwise pleasant afternoon :p

173 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:17:07pm

re: #166 ralphieboy

I have thought about that a lot, and can understand the argument that we chould not force those who oppose abortion on moral grounds to support it directly or indirectly through taxation.

Do you hold that same view for everything else in government?

Because that'd be the end of government.

174 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:17:37pm
175 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:17:55pm

re: #166 ralphieboy

There is one point that I find rather touchy, despite all my pro-choice sentiments.

If we use the argument that an abortion is a private and personal matter that the government cannot interfere in, then one can make the argument that the government also has no obligation to make it accessible to those who do come to choose it.

I have thought about that a lot, and can understand the argument that we chould not force those who oppose abortion on moral grounds to support it directly or indirectly through taxation.

I think the issue is if the government doesn't push back against states trying to make it illegal, it'll just become de facto illegal.

Just like the government shouldn't technically be in the business of compelling people to get along, but it has to be. Because people will collapse into abject racism without laws in place to force them under threat of prison to comply

We literally had to pass laws forcing people to treat each other with respect. (i.e. not discriminating in housing, employment, business) So if we had to do THAT, we certainly have to have a government component protecting women's rights

176 RogueOne  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:17:56pm

re: #159 marjoriemoon

No other medical procedure is like this. You're talking about the possible birth of another human being. Not breast implants, not a nose job, not back surgery.

A woman of any age, young or old, should be able to have a legal abortion, at least under 3 months gestation, with the consent of NO one. Not a husband, not a boyfriend, not a parent. I don't care if she's 11. She's old enough to have sex, she's old enough to make up her mind about her own reproductive choices.

Is a teenager legally allowed to sign a contract? No. Is a child allowed to get a tattoo without parental consent? No. Is a 17yr old allowed to join the military? No. Shouldn't they be? It's their bodies, their lives, right?

I'm sorry, I'm pro-choice (up to the age of 12 that way it gives you time to figure out if they're going to be a drain on society or not) but putting a medical procedure up on a pedestal like it's somehow special and therefore immune from all law is crazy.

177 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:18:00pm

re: #169 researchok

I asked why you believed Missouri would stop making these laws, and why you believed abortion clinics would move back into the state.

Can you answer that?

178 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:18:29pm

re: #169 researchok

Abortion is not the issue of our times.

Unless you're pregnant.

179 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:19:24pm

re: #177 Obdicut

I asked why you believed Missouri would stop making these laws, and why you believed abortion clinics would move back into the state.

Can you answer that?

Yes, I can answer that.

Whenever a woman's right to choose has come under attack, the courts have almost always reversed those attacks and resrictions under appeal.

180 recusancy  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:19:43pm

re: #169 researchok

What is the issue of our times?

181 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:19:46pm

re: #178 wrenchwench

Unless you're pregnant.

I am pro choice.

182 HappyWarrior  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:19:59pm

re: #166 ralphieboy

There is one point that I find rather touchy, despite all my pro-choice sentiments.

If we use the argument that an abortion is a private and personal matter that the government cannot interfere in, then one can make the argument that the government also has no obligation to make it accessible to those who do come to choose it.

I have thought about that a lot, and can understand the argument that we chould not force those who oppose abortion on moral grounds to support it directly or indirectly through taxation.

Interesting point but you could use that with gosh so many issues, like for example I oppose the death penalty, I would rather my tax dollars not go towards something which I dislike such as that. I remember a neighbor of mine when I was a kid parroting his parents bitching about why their tax dollars should have to go to public schools when they went to private schools. And of course people on my side of the spectrum who didn't like that their tax dollars went to war or wars that they opposed.

183 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:20:08pm

re: #176 RogueOne

Is a teenager legally allowed to sign a contract? No. Is a child allowed to get a tattoo without parental consent? No. Is a 17yr old allowed to join the military? No. Shouldn't they be? It's their bodies, their lives, right?

I'm sorry, I'm pro-choice (up to the age of 12 that way it gives you time to figure out if they're going to be a drain on society or not) but putting a medical procedure up on a pedestal like it's somehow special and therefore immune from all law is crazy.

Abortions are.

special.

cases.

it's real weird that you're equating a totally elective thing like a tattoo with someone being pregnant.

Real weird


Also "immune from all law"? What the hell?

184 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:20:11pm

re: #179 researchok

Yes, I can answer that.

Whenever a woman's right to choose has come under attack, the courts have almost always reversed those attacks and resrictions under appeal.

That is not an answer to my question. Why on earth do you think it is?

This is really disappointing, dude.

185 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:20:19pm

re: #173 Obdicut

Do you hold that same view for everything else in government?

Because that'd be the end of government.

No, only about abortion. I do see it as a seious moral issue, and not one to be taken lightly or lumped in with other medical procedures.

The argument again, for supporting the right to choice is that a woman's body is her own and her choice is her own - the government should not be allowed to interefere.

And if it is not allowed to interfere in that choice, then it need not necessarily be called on to facilitate that choice.

It is a hard call, but in this particular case I support that point of view

Heck, if it came down to it, I would donate to a private fund to assist women who choose abortions because I support that right, but I would not ask anyone else to do so except voluntarily.

186 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:20:20pm

re: #180 recusancy

What is the issue of our times?

Probably the bush tax cuts!

187 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:20:30pm

re: #176 RogueOne

Is a teenager legally allowed to sign a contract? No. Is a child allowed to get a tattoo without parental consent? No. Is a 17yr old allowed to join the military? No. Shouldn't they be? It's their bodies, their lives, right?

I'm sorry, I'm pro-choice (up to the age of 12 that way it gives you time to figure out if they're going to be a drain on society or not) but putting a medical procedure up on a pedestal like it's somehow special and therefore immune from all law is crazy.

Should it be legal for parents to force a child to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth? That is the flip side of this coin, and it deserves to be addressed honestly.

188 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:20:49pm

re: #180 recusancy

What is the issue of our times?

I would say the economy first and national security second. Further, in many ways they are inter related.

189 recusancy  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:20:50pm

re: #181 researchok

I am pro choice.

But you vote anti-choice.

190 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:20:57pm

re: #179 researchok

Yes, I can answer that.

Whenever a woman's right to choose has come under attack, the courts have almost always reversed those attacks and resrictions under appeal.

There is

one


abortion


provider

in

Missouri


Do you think that is a good thing?

191 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:21:17pm

re: #181 researchok

I am pro choice.

But you are so lukewarm about it. You complain that others are obsessed, then you ignore the reasons offered for their vigilant attitudes.

192 iossarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:21:23pm

re: #176 RogueOne

...putting a medical procedure up on a pedestal like it's somehow special and therefore immune from all law is crazy.

I don't think it should be on a pedestal, I just can't think of any situation where requiring parental consent would be helpful.

In a lot of cases, I would assume (and hope) that parents are in a position to help and give advice.

193 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:21:33pm

re: #189 recusancy

But you vote anti-choice.

No I don't. Why would you say that?

I am on record as being pro choice!

194 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:21:48pm

re: #189 recusancy

But you vote anti-choice.

of course he does!

he's VERY CONCERNED ABOUT TAXES

195 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:22:01pm

re: #185 ralphieboy

No, only about abortion. I do see it as a seious moral issue, and not one to be taken lightly or lumped in with other medical procedures.

I see capital punishment as a serious moral issue. I see jailing people for drug offenses as a serious moral issue. I see censorship as a serious moral issue. I have a whole host of things the government does that I seriously morally disapprove of.

So why is abortion special?

196 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:22:39pm

re: #193 researchok

No I don't. Why would you say that?

I am on record as being pro choice!

If you vote Republican, you vote anti-choice.

197 recusancy  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:23:03pm

re: #193 researchok

No I don't. Why would you say that?

I am on record as being pro choice!

Who did you vote for in '08 and who are you going to vote for in '10?

198 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:23:10pm

re: #193 researchok

No I don't. Why would you say that?

I am on record as being pro choice!

If you vote for the party whose national platform is explicitly opposed to abortion, and whose state party platforms are opposed in 88% of states overall, and 100% of states in which the GOP has legislative control, you are voting against legal, safe, and available abortions.

199 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:23:14pm

re: #193 researchok

No I don't. Why would you say that?

I am on record as being pro choice!

Like I said, you're using this as a tool to deflect criticism

You have shown nothing in this thread to lead me to believe that you actually CARE about choice.

Which is really the thing here, you just don't care, so you repeat falsehoods because the Republican party and the defense of such seem to be what's important to you

200 iossarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:23:59pm

re: #197 recusancy

Who did you vote for in '08 and who are you going to vote for in '10?

Let me guess, it will be the party that has done the most to add to the deficit over the past 50 years.

201 nines09  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:24:13pm

Outlaw abortions and only outlaws will have abortions. //
The connected will not blink an eye to get done what needs done. Dog whistle. Fuck Dick and all who resemble him.

202 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:24:18pm

re: #187 Fozzie Bear

Should it be legal for parents to force a child to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth? That is the flip side of this coin, and it deserves to be addressed honestly.

Sounds pretty terrifying when one puts it that way!

203 albusteve  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:24:47pm

abortion for anyone, anytime, due to any circumstance...bring your checkbook and do it...and don't forget to vote!

204 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:24:50pm

re: #191 wrenchwench

But you are so lukewarm about it. You complain that others are obsessed, then you ignore the reasons offered for their vigilant attitudes.

Not at all. This conversation was more about politics than about the issue of abortion.

I am 100% pro choice. See this, in my own words.

205 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:25:25pm

Abortion involves terminating a potential life, which is a pretty heavy concept. In the end I find a woman's right to choice has precedence, but once again, that is because it is her private and personal sphere.

If we wish to say that the government may not interfere in this area, we should not be expecting the government to participate in any manner.

206 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:25:32pm

re: #202 WindUpBird

Sounds pretty terrifying when one puts it that way!

If my putative daughter had an abortion and didn't trust me enough to tell me about, it would indicate I was a fucking failure as a parent.

207 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:25:43pm

re: #204 researchok

Not at all. This conversation was more about politics than about the issue of abortion.

I am 100% pro choice. See this, in my own words.

evading always evading

The conversation seems to be about your various denials of facts

208 RogueOne  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:25:49pm

re: #183 WindUpBird

Abortions are.

special.

cases.

it's real weird that you're equating a totally elective thing like a tattoo with someone being pregnant.

Real weird

Also "immune from all law"? What the hell?

It isn't weird. If the argument is that it's their body then tattoos should be covered.

We as a society have decided people under the age of 18 are not entirely responsible for their actions because they're young and dumb and being pregnant doesn't change that at all. Blocking the rights of parents to raise their children is offensive. There isn't any other medical or cosmetic procedure people would say kids should be allowed to have done on their own but abortion and I think that's mostly due to dogma and politics. It's like the NRA arguing the right to carry means I have the right to own and drive a tank. The right to privacy, and hence abortion, is no more absolute than the 1st amendment or the 2nd, etc., etc. The idea that there can be no restrictions whatsoever is, IMHO, crazy talk.

209 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:25:51pm

re: #203 albusteve

abortion for anyone, anytime, due to any circumstance...bring your checkbook and do it...and don't forget to vote!

STEVE! Hope you are feeling better

210 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:25:52pm

re: #199 WindUpBird

Like I said, you're using this as a tool to deflect criticism

You have shown nothing in this thread to lead me to believe that you actually CARE about choice.

Which is really the thing here, you just don't care, so you repeat falsehoods because the Republican party and the defense of such seem to be what's important to you

See this.

And if you want to make this personal, I can play too.

211 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:25:54pm

re: #203 albusteve

Welcome back.

Did you go for the shotgun leg attachment?

212 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:26:21pm

re: #204 researchok

Not at all. This conversation was more about politics than about the issue of abortion.

I am 100% pro choice. See this, in my own words.

Except that politics, at the state and national level, absolutely do strongly impact the availability and legality of abortion. You can't separate the two in the US.

213 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:26:29pm

re: #205 ralphieboy

Abortion involves terminating a potential life, which is a pretty heavy concept. In the end I find a woman's right to choice has precedence, but once again, that is because it is her private and personal sphere.

If we wish to say that the government may not interfere in this area, we should not be expecting the government to participate in any manner.


again, this is a case where if the government does NOT INTERFERE

then Abortion will BE ILLEGAL.

Period.

214 RogueOne  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:27:05pm

re: #187 Fozzie Bear

Should it be legal for parents to force a child to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth? That is the flip side of this coin, and it deserves to be addressed honestly.

That's a good question but not part of my argument. All I'm arguing right now is that parents have the right to know, unless of course they're the one who got her impregnated in the first place.

215 Lidane  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:27:09pm

Because really-- the most important issue during an uncertain economy is abortion. =P

It's garbage like this that keeps me from ever supporting the GOP. Between their fanaticism about abortion, the strident social conservatism they push, and all the anti-science, anti-intellectual, anti-reason junk they shove on people, it's just not worth it to me.

The Dems might well suck. They might drive me crazy sometimes, and have an uncanny knack for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, but at least they're sane. I'll take sane incompetence over batshit insane efficiency any day of the week.

216 albusteve  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:27:30pm

re: #211 Obdicut

Welcome back.

Did you go for the shotgun leg attachment?

not there quite yet, but a hell of an idea

217 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:27:32pm

re: #210 researchok

See this.

And if you want to make this personal, I can play too.

It's actually not so much personal as you're one of many who use these rhetorical dodges and tactics, and I'm tired of seeing the same behavior over and over again

You're not that special, lots of guys behave as you do

218 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:27:52pm

re: #207 WindUpBird

evading always evading

The conversation seems to be about your various denials of facts

What have I evaded?

Are you going to say I'm a racist too?

219 iossarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:27:57pm

re: #205 ralphieboy

Abortion involves terminating a potential life, which is a pretty heavy concept. In the end I find a woman's right to choice has precedence, but once again, that is because it is her private and personal sphere.

If we wish to say that the government may not interfere in this area, we should not be expecting the government to participate in any manner.

So does contraception. So does dropping bombs on other people (see: "strong national defense").

These are old, old arguments. Restricting abortion is spun as being about saving lives but in the end it just comes down to a woman having the same right to self-determination as a man.

220 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:28:43pm

re: #208 RogueOne

It isn't weird. If the argument is that it's their body then tattoos should be covered.

We as a society have decided people under the age of 18 are not entirely responsible for their actions because they're young and dumb and being pregnant doesn't change that at all. Blocking the rights of parents to raise their children is offensive. There isn't any other medical or cosmetic procedure people would say kids should be allowed to have done on their own but abortion and I think that's mostly due to dogma and politics. It's like the NRA arguing the right to carry means I have the right to own and drive a tank. The right to privacy, and hence abortion, is no more absolute than the 1st amendment or the 2nd, etc., etc. The idea that there can be no restrictions whatsoever is, IMHO, crazy talk.


I'll just repeat Fozzie's comment, because it's very succinct:


Should it be legal for parents to force a child to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth? That is the flip side of this coin, and it deserves to be addressed honestly.
221 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:28:57pm

re: #217 WindUpBird

It's actually not so much personal as you're one of many who use these rhetorical dodges and tactics, and I'm tired of seeing the same behavior over and over again

You're not that special, lots of guys behave as you do

Yeah. must be I have a problem because Obama is black.

After all, that is what you said about conservatives the other day.

I guess we're all racists.

222 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:29:19pm

re: #213 WindUpBird

again, this is a case where if the government does NOT INTERFERE

then Abortion will BE ILLEGAL.

Period.


I don't follow the logic: if a woman's body is her own, then it is her own. The government should not have the right to determine what she does with it regarding pregnancy.

But if it does not have the right, then it need not bear any responsibility. That to me is the flip side of e coin

I support a woman's right to choose, and I oppose government interference in that right. I would privately help to support women's ability to excercise those rights if that became necessary.

223 Kragar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:29:33pm

OT

They've released some concept art and costume pictures for the Captain Amercia film. Apparently they realized he was actually part of the Super Soldier program.

Image: captain-america-sdcc-poster.jpg

224 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:29:33pm

re: #218 researchok

What have I evaded?

Are you going to say I'm a racist too?

The whole thread dude

I'm not playing question tennis with you, everyone sees you doing it

225 cliffster  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:29:39pm

re: #203 albusteve

abortion for anyone, anytime, due to any circumstance...bring your checkbook and do it...and don't forget to vote!

hey steve!

226 RogueOne  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:29:42pm

re: #211 Obdicut

Welcome back.

Did you go for the shotgun leg attachment?

I vote for a chainsaw leg attachment.

227 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:29:44pm

re: #105 researchok

Of course you are right.

So many states and local jurisdictions have banned abortions altogether. It must be hard for you to keep up.

/

You keep narrowing your definition of 'attack'. Now you have it down to banning abortions.

How about all those cases mentioned in earlier comments where abortions are not banned but made difficult, either physically or emotionally, for women to pursue?

228 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:29:58pm

re: #217 WindUpBird

It's actually not so much personal as you're one of many who use these rhetorical dodges and tactics, and I'm tired of seeing the same behavior over and over again

You're not that special, lots of guys behave as you do

You make me laugh!

229 Lidane  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:30:02pm

re: #219 iossarian

These are old, old arguments. Restricting abortion is spun as being about saving lives but in the end it just comes down to a woman having the same right to self-determination as a man.

EXACTLY.

The question we should be asking is does a woman have the same rights of agency and self-determination as a man? If you believe she does, then you're pro-choice. Period.

230 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:30:18pm

re: #214 RogueOne

That's a good question but not part of my argument. All I'm arguing right now is that parents have the right to know, unless of course they're the one who got her impregnated in the first place.

If the law states that parental consent must be provided in order for minors to obtain abortions, then that also means that without parental consent, said minors cannot obtain abortions. In the case of parental notification, would it not stand to reason that in cases where a minor does not notify their parents, it is likely that the parents will act to prevent the minor from obtaining an abortion?

You can't separate one from the other. If parents must consent, then they also have the power to force their children to carry children to term. One necessarily implies the other.

231 yasharki  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:31:02pm

re: #205 ralphieboy

Abortion involves terminating a potential life, which is a pretty heavy concept. In the end I find a woman's right to choice has precedence, but once again, that is because it is her private and personal sphere.

If we wish to say that the government may not interfere in this area, we should not be expecting the government to participate in any manner.

Using a condom, pulling out on time, or jacking off involves termination of potential life too, should we ban those practices too? Should the government get involved?

232 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:31:29pm

re: #227 b_sharp

You keep narrowing your definition of 'attack'. Now you have it down to banning abortions.

How about all those cases mentioned in earlier comments where abortions are not banned but made difficult, either physically or emotionally, for women to pursue?

As I noted, that is true.

It is also true that when appealed, the courts almost universally uphold in favor of a woman's right to choose.

233 recusancy  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:32:30pm

re: #230 Fozzie Bear

If the law states that parental consent must be provided in order for minors to obtain abortions, then that also means that without parental consent, said minors cannot obtain abortions. In the case of parental notification, would it not stand to reason that in cases where a minor does not notify their parents, it is likely that the parents will act to prevent the minor from obtaining an abortion?

You can't separate one from the other. If parents must consent, then they also have the power to force their children to carry children to term. One necessarily implies the other.

And not getting an abortion and carrying an unwanted child to term has larger consequences then not getting a boob job (bringing it back to the silly false equivalency from up thread).

234 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:32:44pm

I have to go do the dishes so my wife can cook some pork tenderloin with potatoes, pearl onions, honeyed carrots, and other lovelies.

I'd ask anyone who doesn't consider abortion availability to be a serious issue to keep this in mind:

I used to work with 'runaway' teens, including those who had been kicked out by their parents. It's not actually legal to do this, of course, but once a parent kicks you out, most kids don't go to the cops to have them arrest their parents for neglect. They just become homeless street kids.

Many of the girls that I saw in my work had been kicked out due to pregnancy.

Many of the girls I saw who were either true runaways or had been kicked out by their parents got pregnant. Often, if they were living with a boyfriend at the time, he would kick them out and refuse to have anything more to do with them.

Lack of access to abortion means, bluntly, pregnant homeless teenage girls. They're real. I've counseled them. There is almost nothing in the world more depressing.

235 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:32:48pm

re: #231 yasharki

Using a condom, pulling out on time, or jacking off involves termination of potential life too, should we ban those practices too? Should the government get involved?


Don't follow your logic, I support women's right to choose an abortion and I support a person's right to put on a condom and I support and proudly excercise my right to jerk off...in my personal space, just not in public.

236 cliffster  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:32:50pm

re: #219 iossarian

So does contraception. So does dropping bombs on other people (see: "strong national defense").

These are old, old arguments. Restricting abortion is spun as being about saving lives but in the end it just comes down to a woman having the same right to self-determination as a man.

A lot of people will argue that a woman should have the right to an abortion right up until the time the child is born. What do you think about that?

237 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:33:02pm

re: #224 WindUpBird

The whole thread dude

I'm not playing question tennis with you, everyone sees you doing it

Cmon, won't you accuse me that 'stepinfetchit' thing? You know you like to do that!

238 albusteve  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:33:30pm

re: #209 HoosierHoops

STEVE! Hope you are feeling better

a bit...how bout them Cowgirls?

239 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:33:47pm

re: #216 albusteve

not there quite yet, but a hell of an idea

Maybe you can meet this girl.

240 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:34:03pm

re: #234 Obdicut

I have to go do the dishes so my wife can cook some pork tenderloin with potatoes, pearl onions, honeyed carrots, and other lovelies.

I'd ask anyone who doesn't consider abortion availability to be a serious issue to keep this in mind:

I used to work with 'runaway' teens, including those who had been kicked out by their parents. It's not actually legal to do this, of course, but once a parent kicks you out, most kids don't go to the cops to have them arrest their parents for neglect. They just become homeless street kids.

Many of the girls that I saw in my work had been kicked out due to pregnancy.

Many of the girls I saw who were either true runaways or had been kicked out by their parents got pregnant. Often, if they were living with a boyfriend at the time, he would kick them out and refuse to have anything more to do with them.

Lack of access to abortion means, bluntly, pregnant homeless teenage girls. They're real. I've counseled them. There is almost nothing in the world more depressing.



This, a thousand fucking times this.

241 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:34:03pm

re: #216 albusteve

not there quite yet, but a hell of an idea

The only problem I have with that one is the end of the muzzle will get packed up with dirt.

242 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:34:08pm

re: #214 RogueOne

That's a good question but not part of my argument. All I'm arguing right now is that parents have the right to know, unless of course they're the one who got her impregnated in the first place.


It's not part of your argument because you're avoiding the argument. It breaks your argument so you choose to ignore it.

243 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:34:21pm

re: #236 cliffster

A lot of people will argue that a woman should have the right to an abortion right up until the time the child is born. What do you think about that?

No, they won't, Cliffster. Support for third-trimester abortion except in cases of medical emergency is very rare.

Now I really do have to go do dishes.

244 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:34:28pm

re: #236 cliffster

A lot of people will argue that a woman should have the right to an abortion right up until the time the child is born. What do you think about that?


I believe the common legal standard is that abortion is legal up to the point at which the child is viable outside its mother's body.

245 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:34:41pm

re: #236 cliffster

A lot of people will argue that a woman should have the right to an abortion right up until the time the child is born. What do you think about that?

I think that is a red herring. Nobody here is talking about ultra late term abortion, except you.

246 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:34:47pm

re: #234 Obdicut

I have to go do the dishes so my wife can cook some pork tenderloin with potatoes, pearl onions, honeyed carrots, and other lovelies.

I'd ask anyone who doesn't consider abortion availability to be a serious issue to keep this in mind:

I used to work with 'runaway' teens, including those who had been kicked out by their parents. It's not actually legal to do this, of course, but once a parent kicks you out, most kids don't go to the cops to have them arrest their parents for neglect. They just become homeless street kids.

Many of the girls that I saw in my work had been kicked out due to pregnancy.

Many of the girls I saw who were either true runaways or had been kicked out by their parents got pregnant. Often, if they were living with a boyfriend at the time, he would kick them out and refuse to have anything more to do with them.

Lack of access to abortion means, bluntly, pregnant homeless teenage girls. They're real. I've counseled them. There is almost nothing in the world more depressing.

Bolded for truth, and you rock for doing such difficult work

247 RogueOne  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:35:08pm

re: #230 Fozzie Bear

I think parents should have to give consent just like in every other aspect of the kids life. Unless the pregnancy is going to be some sort of physical harm to the child then parental rights win out. I keep asking what else parents don't have the authority to decide for their child and haven't received any response other than "abortion is special".

248 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:35:56pm

re: #221 researchok

Yeah. must be I have a problem because Obama is black.

After all, that is what you said about conservatives the other day.

I guess we're all racists.

Did you just throw all your rational arguments into the dumper?

249 RogueOne  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:35:59pm

have to run folks, I'll BBL. The spouse is out for the night so I have time to hang out. I'm sure you're all thrilled.

250 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:36:11pm

re: #237 researchok

Cmon, won't you accuse me that 'stepinfetchit' thing? You know you like to do that!

Is this where you take your frustration about all your buddies being banned for their disgusting behavior out on me?

Because I actually really enjoy that, I'm happy to shoulder the blame for that

251 cliffster  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:36:13pm

re: #243 Obdicut

No, they won't, Cliffster. Support for third-trimester abortion except in cases of medical emergency is very rare.

Now I really do have to go do dishes.

Yes, my friend, people do argue that. A lot of people. I'm drawing from personal experience. And they often cite "slippery slope".

252 albusteve  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:36:14pm

re: #222 ralphieboy

I don't follow the logic: if a woman's body is her own, then it is her own. The government should not have the right to determine what she does with it regarding pregnancy.

But if it does not have the right, then it need not bear any responsibility. That to me is the flip side of e coin

I support a woman's right to choose, and I oppose government interference in that right. I would privately help to support women's ability to excercise those rights if that became necessary.

there is no logic to abortion....it's an issue that will never be resolved, but the shame is that it's become so politicized....there are loads of other, more encompassing issues

253 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:36:15pm

re: #247 RogueOne

I think parents should have to give consent just like in every other aspect of the kids life. Unless the pregnancy is going to be some sort of physical harm to the child then parental rights win out. I keep asking what else parents don't have the authority to decide for their child and haven't received any response other than "abortion is special".

Your parental rights end when you are forcing underage girls to have children, in my opinion. They are your children, not your chattel.

254 iossarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:36:32pm

re: #236 cliffster

A lot of people will argue that a woman should have the right to an abortion right up until the time the child is born. What do you think about that?

I don't know what the law currently is, but I believe elective abortions go up to the end of the first trimester? And then after that you have to have a medical reason?

I would say that's about right, but I will admit that I haven't given a lot of thought to it, and would be interested to hear what the arguments are in favor of "elective up to term".

255 recusancy  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:36:42pm

re: #232 researchok

As I noted, that is true.

It is also true that when appealed, the courts almost universally uphold in favor of a woman's right to choose.

Good for the courts. But your initial question was "If abortion were truly under attack, we'd have heard about on the local level for decades. That just is not the case. Show me the mass assault on abortion by local governments."

It is under attack. That is the case. The courts defend it but it's still under attack by Republicans.

This was the initial goal post.

256 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:37:40pm

re: #255 recusancy

Good for the courts. But your initial question was "If abortion were truly under attack, we'd have heard about on the local level for decades. That just is not the case. Show me the mass assault on abortion by local governments."

It is under attack. That is the case. The courts defend it but it's still under attack by Republicans.

This was the initial goal post.

We aren't even within sniping distance of the original goal posts any more.

257 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:37:46pm

re: #248 b_sharp

Did you just throw all your rational arguments into the dumper?

No, I was responding to Windupbird.

It seems he wants to make our exchanges personal because I disagree with him.

258 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:38:02pm

re: #251 cliffster

Yes, my friend, people do argue that. A lot of people. I'm drawing from personal experience. And they often cite "slippery slope".

A lot of who?

Any abortion advocacy groups?

Anyone with a logo and actual membership is arguing that someone can terminate their pregnancy after the baby can live outside the womb?

Links. Links or it didn't happen, dude. No more bumper stickers. No more talking points.

Proof!

or are you just bringing up some people you found on DU or on some angry Dworkin-esque third-wave feminist blog? Or maybe Limbaugh had a soundbite that was really juicy

259 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:38:32pm

re: #257 researchok

No, I was responding to Windupbird.

It seems he wants to make our exchanges personal because I disagree with him.

This is a rather personal issue if you have a uterus or care about someone who does. In other words, it's personal for everyone.

260 albusteve  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:38:34pm

re: #250 WindUpBird

Is this where you take your frustration about all your buddies being banned for their disgusting behavior out on me?

Because I actually really enjoy that, I'm happy to shoulder the blame for that

everybody needs their gig....if that's yours, so be it

261 Lidane  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:38:40pm

re: #247 RogueOne

Unless one of the parents is involved in the pregnancy. If it's incest, then no-- I don't agree that the parents have a right to block a young girl from an abortion. At that point, the parent gave up their rights, IMO.

Forcing a young girl to go through a pregnancy against her will, especially if it comes through rape or incest, is inhumane. Period.

262 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:38:42pm

re: #255 recusancy

Good for the courts. But your initial question was "If abortion were truly under attack, we'd have heard about on the local level for decades. That just is not the case. Show me the mass assault on abortion by local governments."

It is under attack. That is the case. The courts defend it but it's still under attack by Republicans.

This was the initial goal post.

If we're playing ball in Portland, I think that goal post is now in the Pacific ocean

263 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:39:04pm

re: #260 albusteve

everybody needs their gig...if that's yours, so be it

Well, it seems to happen a lot, I got pressed into service but I'm enjoying the role

264 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:39:35pm

re: #238 albusteve

a bit...how bout them Cowgirls?

Not good..But heck the Colts couldn't stop the run Sunday...

265 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:39:42pm

re: #257 researchok

No, I was responding to Windupbird.

It seems he wants to make our exchanges personal because I disagree with him.

I don't like people who lie to me outright

I find it disrespectful

266 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:40:14pm

re: #250 WindUpBird

Is this where you take your frustration about all your buddies being banned for their disgusting behavior out on me?

Because I actually really enjoy that, I'm happy to shoulder the blame for that

Firstly, they aren't my buddies. Why would you even imply that?

All I did was highlight what you said.

267 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:40:24pm

re: #260 albusteve

everybody needs their gig...if that's yours, so be it

also welcome back!

268 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:40:33pm

re: #266 researchok

Firstly, they aren't my buddies. Why would you even imply that?

All I did was highlight what you said.

hah ;-)

269 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:40:33pm

re: #257 researchok

No, I was responding to Windupbird.

It seems he wants to make our exchanges personal because I disagree with him.

I'm sorry, but I don't see where he even suggested racism.

270 albusteve  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:40:44pm

re: #263 WindUpBird

Well, it seems to happen a lot, I got pressed into service but I'm enjoying the role

I'll bet you are...now you are officially somebody

271 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:40:52pm

re: #259 Fozzie Bear

This is a rather personal issue if you have a uterus or care about someone who does. In other words, it's personal for everyone.

Yes, I couldn't agree more. That's first and foremost why I'm pro choice.

272 iossarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:41:00pm

re: #247 RogueOne

I think parents should have to give consent just like in every other aspect of the kids life. Unless the pregnancy is going to be some sort of physical harm to the child then parental rights win out. I keep asking what else parents don't have the authority to decide for their child and haven't received any response other than "abortion is special".

I think parents don't have the right to decide all that much for their child. Basically you try to raise them right and hope for the best.

I do think that it's a good idea to prevent cigarette companies from pushing their products on kids.

Mostly it comes down to whether you think a decision is good or bad. I don't think abortion is a "bad" decision.

273 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:41:56pm

re: #269 b_sharp

I'm sorry, but I don't see where he even suggested racism.

I was referring to an earlier thread. He indicated conservatives universally dislike Obama because of his race.

274 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:42:38pm

re: #271 researchok

Yes, I couldn't agree more. That's first and foremost why I'm pro choice.

You're pro choice and you spin the GOP's position as being some sort of crypto-secret-pro-choice when they are clearly not pro-choice at all

275 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:42:47pm

I'm one of those strange birds who believes that elective abortion is a sin but who does not think the government should be in the business of making moral decisions. The sad part is the debate rages on the fringes with one side bringing up late term abortions as though they are a large percentage of abortions and the other side bringing up incest and rape cases like they are a large percentage of abortions.

I would be very interested in a discussion that talked about how to prevent women from getting thrown into the river as opposed to how we should criminalize drowning.

There are good options to unplanned pregnancy and the best option is to avoid it using chastity and birth control. The next best option IMO is adoption.

The extreme cases of risk to the mothers health, incest and rape are grueling choices that only the woman should ultimately have the option of making, not a government oversight board.

276 cliffster  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:43:02pm

re: #258 WindUpBird

A lot of who?

Any abortion advocacy groups?

Anyone with a logo and actual membership is arguing that someone can terminate their pregnancy after the baby can live outside the womb?

Links. Links or it didn't happen, dude. No more bumper stickers. No more talking points.

Proof!

or are you just bringing up some people you found on DU or on some angry Dworkin-esque third-wave feminist blog? Or maybe Limbaugh had a soundbite that was really juicy

settle down bird, your screeching is getting a little out of control.

277 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:43:33pm

re: #276 cliffster

settle down bird, your screeching is getting a little out of control.


You're not answering any of my questions, which indicates to me you have no answer. :)

278 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:43:50pm

re: #273 researchok

I was referring to an earlier thread. He indicated conservatives universally dislike Obama because of his race.

If you stick to what is said on any given thread, rather than bouncing around, then Bozos like me can follow better.

279 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:44:07pm

re: #276 cliffster

so I'll ask again:

Which abortion advocacy group is advocating that a baby at 8.5 months be legal to terminate?

280 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:44:08pm

re: #268 WindUpBird

hah ;-)

Yes, that is what you said.

I was particularly amused by the 'stepinfetchit' remark.

281 cliffster  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:44:12pm

re: #277 WindUpBird

You're not answering any of my questions, which indicates to me you have no answer. :)

Actually, you didn't ask questions so much as you made demands. cliffy don't play that game.

282 albusteve  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:44:19pm

re: #274 WindUpBird

You're pro choice and you spin the GOP's position as being some sort of crypto-secret-pro-choice when they are clearly not pro-choice at all

the GOP is on the wrong side of many issues....they are a club, a poli-cult that cannot be taken seriously anymore

283 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:44:48pm

re: #281 cliffster

Actually, you didn't ask questions so much as you made demands. cliffy don't play that game.

You made an assertion you couldn't back up.

And so I'll ask again:

Which abortion advocacy group is advocating that a baby at 8.5 months be legal to terminate?

284 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:45:41pm

What happened in here? There is pee all over the floor.

285 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:45:55pm

re: #274 WindUpBird

You're pro choice and you spin the GOP's position as being some sort of crypto-secret-pro-choice when they are clearly not pro-choice at all

Right. It's a conspiracy theory.

286 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:46:35pm

re: #284 DaddyG

What happened in here? There is pee all over the floor.

all the furniture thrown out the window, the television in the bathtub, some guy in a kangaroo outfit doing blow in the kitchen

287 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:46:48pm

re: #284 DaddyG

What happened in here? There is pee all over the floor.

That always happens. The only difference this time is somebody is out dancing with the mop.

288 cliffster  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:46:58pm

re: #279 WindUpBird

so I'll ask again:

Which abortion advocacy group is advocating that a baby at 8.5 months be legal to terminate?

Well, I would hope there are none, but I would guess there are some, especially if you went beyond "official position" and talked to the actual people involved. I'm simply referring to people that I have heard say that. Actually, last time I was on LGF in an abortion conversation breakout, there were two folks taking that position - one for the 'ol "slippery slope" and one just flat out said it's a woman's body.

289 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:47:07pm

re: #285 researchok

Right. It's a conspiracy theory.

No conspiracy at all! Just you being dishonest. Quite simple.

290 iossarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:47:13pm

re: #275 DaddyG


There are good options to unplanned pregnancy and the best option is to avoid it using chastity and birth control. The next best option IMO is adoption.

See, I think that early abortion is no big deal.

You're basically zapping a bunch of cells. The whole "it could have been the next Einstein" thing is lost on me. I think it's a holdover from long, long ago, when enforcing progeny was more important from a social continuity point of view.

On that note, gotta go!

291 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:48:14pm

re: #286 WindUpBird

all the furniture thrown out the window, the television in the bathtub, some guy in a kangaroo outfit doing blow in the kitchen

So your basic Rock band?

292 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:48:26pm

re: #289 WindUpBird

No conspiracy at all! Just you being dishonest. Quite simple.

LOL

Where have I been dishonest?

293 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:48:51pm

As far as I am concerned, what happens inside the confines of my skin is my own business, and nobody else's. Anyone who would attempt to legislate in such a way as to deprive me or anyone else of that right will be met with the strongest hostility I can muster.

If any right could be said to be inalienable and God-given, it would be the right to reproductive self-determination. To oppose that right is the among the most despicable and abhorrent acts one could undertake, As the GOP is absolutely, provable, and incontrovertibly opposed to that right, anyone who supports them knowing their position on this issue is supporting giving the state control over individual people's reproductive systems.

This is, as far as I am concerned, as close to pure evil as it gets.

294 deranged cat  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:48:57pm

re: #20 webevintage

OT:
Tea Party Float Depicts Obama Whipping A White ‘Future Tax Payer’ Pulling A Wagon
[Link: thinkprogress.org...]
Stay classy Tea Party...

The townfolks were not impressed, Teatard whines about being called racist.

Just in case it gets taken down, i uploaded it on megaupload in mp4 format
[Link: www.megaupload.com...]

295 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:49:50pm

re: #288 cliffster

Well, I would hope there are none, but I would guess there are some, especially if you went beyond "official position" and talked to the actual people involved. I'm simply referring to people that I have heard say that. Actually, last time I was on LGF in an abortion conversation breakout, there were two folks taking that position - one for the 'ol "slippery slope" and one just flat out said it's a woman's body.

So basically you have nothing to back this assertion up, you just suspect that secretly a "lot" of people believe in their heart of hearts a totally extreme and indefensible position about a viable life.

I'd actually like to know who on LGF thinks what is a preemie newborn should be killed. Who on LGF said that? Was it a regular? Was it a troll?

296 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:49:51pm

I think that there are a lot of pragmatic Republicans who know that most Americans fin abortion immoral but when push comes to shove, remain reticent about it and really do not want to see it banned, while on the other hand, there is a small but highly vocal minority that wants to see it banned outright.

They take their chances that by pandering to the votes of the latter that they will not put off too many of the former.

This seems to the tactic we are seeing and hearing here. But the vocal minority is starting to seize control of the party.

297 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:49:57pm

re: #291 HoosierHoops

So your basic Rock band?

yes :D

298 engineer cat  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:50:21pm

dear mr armey,

"ban abortion", "the deficit will eat me" and "deport all mexicans" didn't work well enough, and now we are at "burn korans"

please try and keep up with the program

299 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:50:25pm

re: #292 researchok

LOL

Where have I been dishonest?

Obdicut did all the heavy lifting in showing how you were being dishonest

300 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:50:27pm

Unfortunately abortion is also an easy out for some deadbeat donors to suggest to their knocked up girlfriend. Scared young girls will take that out.

The shame of it is that there are far too many families (and I use the term loosley) where a child in trouble cannot go to her parents and seek help.

We wouldn't even be having this debate if parents weren't so damn casual about surrendering their perenting responsibility to the government. More parents would be less surprised if they openly talked to their children about sexuality and reproduction when they were still young and left the door open for a two way conversation no matter the situation.

The number one factor in having children adopt their parents values is how much affection the father shows the children as they are growing up.

301 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:51:07pm

re: #299 WindUpBird

Obdicut did all the heavy lifting in showing how you were being dishonest

Please, refer me to which post you are referring.

302 webevintage  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:51:29pm

re: #170 yasharki

I was just asking a question, how did you managed to bundle me with some types? I didn't mean to imply support for either side, just a question...

Huh?
I was just answering the questions...I never said you were either type.

303 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:51:54pm

re: #301 researchok

Please, refer me to which post you are referring.

Question tennis, not playing it

304 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:52:29pm

re: #301 researchok

Please, refer me to which post you are referring.

You have made it impossible to disprove your point, since every time it is incontrovertibly disproved, with strong evidence, your point changes.

305 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:53:04pm

re: #290 iossarian

See, I think that early abortion is no big deal.

You're basically zapping a bunch of cells. The whole "it could have been the next Einstein" thing is lost on me. I think it's a holdover from long, long ago, when enforcing progeny was more important from a social continuity point of view.

On that note, gotta go!

Given my personal belief system says there are spirits waiting to have those cells form into a viable body that's a pretty big bet.

On a more personal note my wife was one of those scared kids who couldn't go to her parents and her boyfriend and a doctor offered her an "easy out" that later in life haunted her. There is a real emotional cost.

306 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:53:06pm

re: #304 Fozzie Bear

You have made it impossible to disprove your point, since every time it is incontrovertibly disproved, with strong evidence, your point changes.

You're really better at this than I am :D

307 cliffster  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:53:09pm

re: #295 WindUpBird

So basically you have nothing to back this assertion up, you just suspect that secretly a "lot" of people believe in their heart of hearts a totally extreme and indefensible position about a viable life.

I'd actually like to know who on LGF thinks what is a preemie newborn should be killed. Who on LGF said that? Was it a regular? Was it a troll?

they were both regulars. pretty sick notion, I think. you seem to agree, I suppose the kneejerk accusation of limbaugh-teat-suckling was just a way to let go of some anger about all that. Glad I could be here for you

308 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:53:52pm

re: #303 WindUpBird

Question tennis, not playing it

Is it because I'm a racist?
/

309 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:55:21pm

re: #307 cliffster

they were both regulars. pretty sick notion, I think. you seem to agree, I suppose the kneejerk accusation of limbaugh-teat-suckling was just a way to let go of some anger about all that. Glad I could be here for you

Clearly, those who would assert that abortions 8.5 months into a pregnancy are totally cool are a minority of a minority of a minority. There isn't a single national advocacy group of any kind that supports that position, so it is a moot point.

Nobody is talking about killing preemies. If a couple of nuts made that point months ago, well, they are nuts. That isn't even on the table.

310 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:55:45pm

re: #304 Fozzie Bear

You have made it impossible to disprove your point, since every time it is incontrovertibly disproved, with strong evidence, your point changes.

I don't know to which of obdi's comments he was referring.

311 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:55:45pm

re: #305 DaddyG

Given my personal belief system says there are spirits waiting to have those cells form into a viable body that's a pretty big bet.

On a more personal note my wife was one of those scared kids who couldn't go to her parents and her boyfriend and a doctor offered her an "easy out" that later in life haunted her. There is a real emotional cost.

And how does your "personal belief system" have any bearing on someone else?

312 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:56:05pm

re: #304 Fozzie Bear

You have made it impossible to disprove your point, since every time it is incontrovertibly disproved, with strong evidence, your point changes.

Now you've confused me. We can't disprove his statement
because we do disprove his statement?

I'm getting dizzy.

313 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:56:55pm

re: #305 DaddyG

Given my personal belief system says there are spirits waiting to have those cells form into a viable body that's a pretty big bet.

On a more personal note my wife was one of those scared kids who couldn't go to her parents and her boyfriend and a doctor offered her an "easy out" that later in life haunted her. There is a real emotional cost.

Oh agreed on the second point.

Abortion should not be taken lightly, I'd love to see an America where abortions go way down.

And it should happen with education and enlightenment. I believe in early sex ed regardless of parents' feelings, just like I believe in vaccinations regardless of parents' feelings. We treat sex-ed in America like we're in the dark ages. We treat our reproductive system as if it were witchcraft. We have millions of people who are parents who simply do not have the courage to talk to their kids about their bodies and sex and how to protect themselves in an informative way.

314 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:57:21pm

re: #312 b_sharp

Now you've confused me. We can't disprove his statement
because we do disprove his statement?

I'm getting dizzy.

I should just used the shorthand of "you can't make a goal when the goalposts are constantly moving", and let it be at that.

315 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:57:25pm

re: #310 researchok

I don't know to which of obdi's comments he was referring.

Tactics are getting old

tell bagua hi for me

316 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:57:55pm

From the American Prospect- hardly a right wing mouthpiece- , on abortion.


As long as I can remember, the tone of the liberal message on abortion has been defiant, sometimes even celebratory. It's an attitude that reflects the victory of legal abortion over back-alley dangers three decades ago -- a success that many who remember it still experience with deep emotion. It also reflects a certain well-deserved panic: Due to the rising tide of anti-abortion sentiment, abortions are available in only 13 percent of counties in this country, according to Medical Students for Choice; in his first term, Bush appointed more than 200 new anti-abortion federal judges.
317 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:58:47pm

re: #309 Fozzie Bear

Clearly, those who would assert that abortions 8.5 months into a pregnancy are totally cool are a minority of a minority of a minority. There isn't a single national advocacy group of any kind that supports that position, so it is a moot point.

Nobody is talking about killing preemies. If a couple of nuts made that point months ago, well, they are nuts. That isn't even on the table.

There are a few cases where it might be necessary, as in some genetic diseases or imminent danger to the mother, but I can't see anybody viewing those as anything but necessary evils.

318 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:59:17pm

re: #315 WindUpBird

Tactics are getting old

tell bagua hi for me

I never really knew bagua. I never had any exchanges with him.

However, since you insist on making this personal, how about a 'stepinfetchit' for me?

I mean, you're really important now!

319 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:59:32pm

re: #312 b_sharp

Now you've confused me. We can't disprove his statement
because we do disprove his statement?

I'm getting dizzy.

He makes a crazy assertion, we disprove it easily

he makes a completely different crazy assertion that slightly moderates his previous crazy assertion, we disprove that, he keeps moving on and on and claims we never disproved assertion D when we were basically cutting him down to size on A, then B, then C.

it's classic bad internet

320 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 1:59:59pm

re: #318 researchok

I never really knew bagua. I never had any exchanges with him.

However, since you insist on making this personal, how about a 'stepinfetchit' for me?

I mean, you're really important now!

You are just not very good at this!

321 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:00:07pm

re: #308 researchok

OK, I read your post from 2005.

Personally, abortion makes me uncomfortable- actually, it makes me very uncomfortable and angry. I can’t debate the science of conception and I don’t have to. Ask any infertile couple, trying to have a child and they will tell you a fetus is not ’tissue.’ That is enough for me.

By the same token, I do believe an individual has a right to choose what is right for them. It may not be what I agree with and I may find immoral, even. But until I’m in that person’s shoes, what right do I have to tell someone what is moral for them? Should not morality come from within and not be imposed? There are people and societies out there that want to do just that– impose a set of values on us that we disagree with. That imposition of morality goes against everything we believe in.

I used to call that position "reluctantly pro-choice". Now, I'm not sure whether that's a fair characterization. But it's not the same as my pro-choice position, which is more like that of your ex when she had an abortion, "It's no big deal."

I do not know whether this accounts for your lukewarm support and your seeing this as about "politics" more than abortion.

322 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:00:18pm

re: #238 albusteve

Alex Barron is dead to me.

323 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:00:40pm

re: #319 WindUpBird

He makes a crazy assertion, we disprove it easily

he makes a completely different crazy assertion that slightly moderates his previous crazy assertion, we disprove that, he keeps moving on and on and claims we never disproved assertion D when we were basically cutting him down to size on A, then B, then C.

it's classic bad internet

LOLOL

You really do make me laugh!

324 darthstar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:00:44pm

Man...for a little state, Delaware sure knows how to air its dirty laundry.

mmmraow!

"I got into politics because I believe in conservative values and wanted to make a difference. But I was shocked to learn that O’Donnell is no conservative," says Murray, according to a script obtained by POLITICO.

"This is her third Senate race in five years. As O’Donnell’s manager, I found out she was living on campaign donations — using them for rent and personal expenses, while leaving her workers unpaid and piling up thousands in debt," she says.


It's a beautiful day for a cat fight.

325 cliffster  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:01:23pm

re: #322 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Alex Barron is dead to me.

he is the worst football player ever

326 darthstar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:01:38pm

re: #324 darthstar

Man...for a little state, Delaware sure knows how to air its dirty laundry.

mmmraow!


It's a beautiful day for a cat fight.

Oh, and O'Donnell's response to her former staffer's accusation:

“Kristin Murray was fired by Tom Ross, Delaware GOP chairman, in June 2008 for being incompetent. She was then picked up by my campaign, [and] was paid and fired after 2 weeks of ‘work’,” O'Donnell wrote in a statement to POLITICO.

Read more: [Link: www.politico.com...]

327 albusteve  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:02:02pm

re: #322 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Alex Barron is dead to me.

he'll be cut....bet me

328 palomino  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:02:34pm

re: #62 researchok

I could care less what the legislature believes.

My contention is that to say the right to an abortion is on the verge of being taken a way is absurd

We're one SC Justice away from Roe v Wade being overturned. If one of the "liberals" on the Court were to die/retire under a Republican president, then the conservative wing (Scalia, Thomas, Roberts, Alito) would have a fifth vote to end the Roe decision. And then the right to abortion would be taken away in nearly half the state legislatures.

329 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:02:45pm

re: #314 Fozzie Bear

I should just used the shorthand of "you can't make a goal when the goalposts are constantly moving", and let it be at that.

Now you have me picturing a set of wheeled goalposts being pushed in a quasi-random zigzag pattern by a man wearing a striped suit while a kicker runs after him looking for any opportunity to set the ball down and kick it.

330 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:03:29pm

re: #321 wrenchwench

OK, I read your post from 2005.

I used to call that position "reluctantly pro-choice". Now, I'm not sure whether that's a fair characterization. But it's not the same as my pro-choice position, which is more like that of your ex when she had an abortion, "It's no big deal."

I do not know whether this accounts for your lukewarm support and your seeing this as about "politics" more than abortion.

Why is my position so different from similar positions by many on the left? They see abortion as a tragedy and many believe there are too many abortions. Are they 'suspect' in there pro choice positions also?

See this American Prospect article (and that are hardly right wing!)

331 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:03:31pm

re: #327 albusteve

From your mouth to the "god of football's" ears...

332 ShaunP  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:04:01pm

re: #329 b_sharp

Now you have me picturing a set of wheeled goalposts being pushed in a quasi-random zigzag pattern by a man wearing a striped suit while a kicker runs after him looking for any opportunity to set the ball down and kick it.

Would make the extra point a whole lot more interesting...

333 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:04:17pm

re: #331 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

From your mouth to the "god of football's" ears...

Polytheist!!! /

334 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:04:35pm

re: #321 wrenchwench

OK, I read your post from 2005.

I used to call that position "reluctantly pro-choice". Now, I'm not sure whether that's a fair characterization. But it's not the same as my pro-choice position, which is more like that of your ex when she had an abortion, "It's no big deal."

I do not know whether this accounts for your lukewarm support and your seeing this as about "politics" more than abortion.

Well, I think this is basically working backwards from the end, which is "support the republican party"

Researchok's original assertion was that the GOP was essentially secretly pro-choice, basically as a pushback against Charles' blog post.

Obdicut destroyed that.

Then his position changed to "well, abortion is protected and fine, there's no problems it's never udner attack". And we dismantled that with our points about Jindal and Missouri having one provider left in the whole state.

And on and on it goes.

Researchok's goal was always to defend the GOP, that was the "solution", and then basically everything else revolves around that axis, the shifting goal posts, etc.

335 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:04:45pm

re: #328 palomino

We're one SC Justice away from Roe v Wade being overturned. If one of the "liberals" on the Court were to die/retire under a Republican president, then the conservative wing (Scalia, Thomas, Roberts, Alito) would have a fifth vote to end the Roe decision. And then the right to abortion would be taken away in nearly half the state legislatures.

I don't know. Roberts and Alito have referred to abortion as settled law.

336 alexknyc  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:04:50pm

Just got back from voting.

It's amazing, the looks of disgust I got from poll workers when they saw I was a registered Republican.

337 allegro  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:05:08pm

re: #316 researchok

As long as I can remember, the tone of the liberal message on abortion has been defiant, sometimes even celebratory.

Damn right. Without legal means of self-determination and reproductive control, and that means legal birth control and abortion if needed, women are simply incubators. Abortion rights aren't about babies, they are about a woman's equal measure as a fully functioning and sexual human being in this society with the same rights as males. Yes, it is something to celebrate.

It's an attitude that reflects the victory of legal abortion over back-alley dangers three decades ago -- a success that many who remember it still experience with deep emotion.

Yes. Having been a young woman when abortion was illegal and witnessed the costs on many different levels, deep emotion is an accurate statement.

It also reflects a certain well-deserved panic: Due to the rising tide of anti-abortion sentiment, abortions are available in only 13 percent of counties in this country, according to Medical Students for Choice; in his first term, Bush appointed more than 200 new anti-abortion federal judges.

Yet, you claim that a woman's reproductive self-determination is not under attack from Republicans. Still trying to argue that bullshit?

338 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:05:17pm

re: #311 Walter L. Newton

And how does your "personal belief system" have any bearing on someone else?

Only those who I share it with - and no more than the belief that abortions kill only cells has bearing on me. I am however uneasy at such a casual attitude about the power to create or dispose of life. Perhaps as uneasy as someone who is uncomfortable with me taking orders from a God they believe is imaginary.

339 allegro  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:05:46pm

re: #317 b_sharp

There are a few cases where it might be necessary, as in some genetic diseases or imminent danger to the mother, but I can't see anybody viewing those as anything but necessary evils. medical procedures.

FTFY

340 palomino  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:06:07pm

re: #92 researchok

The GOP- like the Democrats- are made up of many groups and factions.

I am sure I might find a few items in the Dem platform that might rankle a efw Dems.

The gop's strongest, most reliable faction is social conservatives (specifically, white evangelical Christians). They are virtually unanimous in their opposition to abortion, as are most Republican leaders. Downplay it all you want, but it still animates a huge part of the gop base.

341 deranged cat  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:06:56pm

re: #324 darthstar

Man...for a little state, Delaware sure knows how to air its dirty laundry.

mmmraow!


It's a beautiful day for a cat fight.

she is soo crazy. i heard the report on her on NPR.. when Mike Castle called her out for being fiscally irresponsible (having huge debts, owing a lot of money to her school or whatever), she says "Mike Castle is elitist! he doesn't know what it's like to struggle!" (paraphrased)

in addition to that awful radio interview, and all the other weird crap.. holy damn. i hope she wins, it'd be primo entertainment.

342 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:07:19pm

Ah, FFS... we arguing over abortion?

The freakin' windmill ain't tiltin'!

343 cliffster  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:08:01pm

9 in 10 gay kids harassed in school last year.

[Link: www.glsen.org...]

Of course, it's hard to put structure around a response that one was "verbally harassed (85% said so)", but the others are pretty clear. Sad report

344 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:08:04pm

re: #336 alexknyc

Just got back from voting.

It's amazing, the looks of disgust I got from poll workers when they saw I was a registered Republican.

That is highly unprofessional and border line illegal. We are in a very "red" district and we always treat the Ds with great respect. I've shushed more than one wingnut political discussion in the lobby of the school where people are waiting to vote.

345 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:08:21pm

re: #323 researchok

LOLOL

You really do make me laugh!

The punchline was when you claimed that the GOP is hands off of abortion in local governments

That was the biggest laugh of all, that was full on Kings of Comedy material there

346 palomino  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:08:37pm

re: #105 researchok

Of course you are right.

So many states and local jurisdictions have banned abortions altogether. It must be hard for you to keep up.

/

Do you understand how Supreme Court decisions work? States can't ban abortion outright until Roe v Wade is overturned. Overturning Roe is the great white whale for the gop base--think of it as the gop equivalent of health care reform for the Dems.

347 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:08:54pm

re: #330 researchok

Why is my position so different from similar positions by many on the left? They see abortion as a tragedy and many believe there are too many abortions. Are they 'suspect' in there pro choice positions also?

See this American Prospect article (and that are hardly right wing!)

I was only comparing your view to my own. Nothing "suspect" in either.

I scanned that article. I have no patience for people who want to say abortion is a right but it's still distasteful. Too frickin' bad. As long as there are people out there trying to remove that right, the distasteful ranting will continue.

348 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:08:55pm

re: #342 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Ah, FFS... we arguing over abortion?

The freakin' windmill ain't tiltin'!

No, but the men on horses are.

349 albusteve  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:09:12pm

re: #334 WindUpBird

Well, I think this is basically working backwards from the end, which is "support the republican party"

Researchok's original assertion was that the GOP was essentially secretly pro-choice, basically as a pushback against Charles' blog post.

Obdicut destroyed that.

Then his position changed to "well, abortion is protected and fine, there's no problems it's never udner attack". And we dismantled that with our points about Jindal and Missouri having one provider left in the whole state.

And on and on it goes.

Researchok's goal was always to defend the GOP, that was the "solution", and then basically everything else revolves around that axis, the shifting goal posts, etc.

abortion is one of the oldest, most contentious subjects at LGF....it's all been discussed before...you have your petty 'victory', but it is neither original or profound, for some people it's just another game played staring into a monitor....HAIL!

350 alexknyc  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:09:14pm

re: #344 DaddyG

That is highly unprofessional and border line illegal. We are in a very "red" district and we always treat the Ds with great respect. I've shushed more than one wingnut political discussion in the lobby of the school where people are waiting to vote.

It's NYC.

Everything related to elections here is highly unprofessional and borderline illegal.

351 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:09:38pm

re: #334 WindUpBird

Well, I think this is basically working backwards from the end, which is "support the republican party"

Researchok's original assertion was that the GOP was essentially secretly pro-choice, basically as a pushback against Charles' blog post.

Obdicut destroyed that.

Then his position changed to "well, abortion is protected and fine, there's no problems it's never udner attack". And we dismantled that with our points about Jindal and Missouri having one provider left in the whole state.

And on and on it goes.

Researchok's goal was always to defend the GOP, that was the "solution", and then basically everything else revolves around that axis, the shifting goal posts, etc.

Where did I change anything? Why are you deliberately and deceitfully implying that I have?

I stand by my remarks. As the conversation moved forward, the topic evolved. I responded accordingly.

By the way, MO has 3 abortion provider, according to records, not one. I will assume that if that is true, at least in that regard you were in err and not being deliberately deceitful.

I answered Obdi's comments as I always do. While we may at times disagree, we do respect each others opinions.

352 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:09:39pm

re: #335 researchok

I don't know. Roberts and Alito have referred to abortion as settled law.

Roberts has also made a number of other statements which would lend to a more critical view of his position on the issue.

We continue to believe that Roe (v. Wade) was wrongly decided and should be overruled. -John Roberts.

Scalia has said that the right to abortion is "not constitutionally protected", so his support for Roe V. Wade is speculative, at best.

When a SCOTUS justice refers to a matter as "settled", it means he/she doesn't intend to attempt to challenge it given the current composition of the court. It does NOT mean that this represents the justice's legal opinion on the matter.

353 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:09:47pm

re: #338 DaddyG

Only those who I share it with - and no more than the belief that abortions kill only cells has bearing on me. I am however uneasy at such a casual attitude about the power to create or dispose of life. Perhaps as uneasy as someone who is uncomfortable with me taking orders from a God they believe is imaginary.

Cute... a little projection there... I'm not uneasy about you taking orders from an imaginary god... just keep him out of business of making "pronouncements" on science and medicine... ok?

354 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:10:49pm

re: #346 palomino

Do you understand how Supreme Court decisions work? States can't ban abortion outright until Roe v Wade is overturned. Overturning Roe is the great white whale for the gop base--think of it as the gop equivalent of health care reform for the Dems.

We do not know how the SCOTUS will vote.

As I noted, at least 2 of the newer appointees have said on record that abortion is steeled law.

355 cliffster  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:11:50pm

re: #349 albusteve

abortion is one of the oldest, most contentious subjects at LGF...it's all been discussed before...you have your petty 'victory', but it is neither original or profound, for some people it's just another game played staring into a monitor...HAIL!

played in the rainfall of fiercely piercing downdings

356 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:11:55pm

re: #334 WindUpBird

I think you described it pretty well. I just don't like when previous threads, commenters, and issues get mixed in.

357 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:13:23pm

re: #352 Fozzie Bear

Roberts has also made a number of other statements which would lend to a more critical view of his position on the issue.

Scalia has said that the right to abortion is "not constitutionally protected", so his support for Roe V. Wade is speculative, at best.

When a SCOTUS justice refers to a matter as "settled", it means he/she doesn't intend to attempt to challenge it given the current composition of the court. It does NOT mean that this represents the justice's legal opinion on the matter.

You may be right.

All I have to go on is what they are on record as having said. Scalia has made his opinion known as have the others. As for your other remarks, I really don't know. Have any justices said that their references to 'settled law' are conditional?

358 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:13:23pm

re: #354 researchok

We do not know how the SCOTUS will vote.

As I noted, at least 2 of the newer appointees have said on record that abortion is steeled law.

And they are also on record as being opposed to its legality, as I referenced above. It is also worth noting that BOTH of them only said so during confirmation hearings. That isn't an endorsement of Roe V. Wade, that is a dodge. Both are opposed to legal abortion, and are on record as saying so, as the links I gave above prove.

359 deranged cat  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:13:27pm

re: #324 darthstar

Man...for a little state, Delaware sure knows how to air its dirty laundry.

mmmraow!


It's a beautiful day for a cat fight.

lol.. the stupid cesspool commenters of politico:

Castle is a known corrupt RINO.
O'Donnell does not yet have such a documented political criminal history against the Constitution, as Castle does.
Christine should be given a chance. The hysterical campaign of innuendo and slander by the establishment should not be considered credible.
In 2010, of course she is electible.

Sounds like sour grapes to me, with no facts to back up what she is saying.
I would suspect some dirty tricks are being played.
However the bottom line is - - Castle need to be retired , he is a RINO.

Mad, fired campaign boss speaking out now,- the fix is in. O'Donnell no conservative? Castle is RINO who voted to impeach George Bush for war crimes. Conservatives have enough to deal with RINOS Graham, Snow , Mc Cain and many other cowards who are more interested in being the Wash. D.C. "ruling class" than saving America.

360 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:14:04pm

re: #357 researchok

You may be right.

All I have to go on is what they are on record as having said. Scalia has made his opinion known as have the others. As for your other remarks, I really don't know. Have any justices said that their references to 'settled law' are conditional?

They both only said it was settled during confirmation hearings. EVERYBODY says that when they are in front of the senate.

361 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:14:32pm

re: #338 DaddyG

Only those who I share it with - and no more than the belief that abortions kill only cells has bearing on me. I am however uneasy at such a casual attitude about the power to create or dispose of life. Perhaps as uneasy as someone who is uncomfortable with me taking orders from a God they believe is imaginary.

Life isn't something magical, it's the interaction of several electro-chemical processes. A blastocyst is just a bunch of cells, every bit as much as a new born baby is a human.

362 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:15:33pm

re: #351 researchok

I'm sorry, dude.

I don't think you were friends with Bagua. I don't think you're secretely hyperconservative. I do beleive that you're pro-choice.

But you have been running around with goalposts strapped to your head for the entire thread.

Your contention that " more GOP members think like Frum and other pro choice conservatives than they do Armey."

Is wrong. You never defended it at all.

Your contention that:


If the opposite were true, abortion would have been on local ballot initiatives and under serious threat for a long time. Save for a very few jurisdictions, that has not happened.

Is blind and untrue-- abortion is not under successful attack, often, because it is constitutionally protected. However, it is under constant attack, so much so that abortion access is incredibly difficult in many, many places.

Your contention that because the courts have always ruled in favor of abortion rights is moot at best-- assuming the court always remains unwilling to reconsider Roe vs. Wade. It does little to impact the areas where constant legislative harassment and lack of governmental support has driven abortion providers away. Like Missouri, like Oklahoma, like Mississippi.

I don't think you're being intentionally dishonest, but I think you are being quite glib about a subject where your arguments have been non-existent and your positions bafflingly unrelated to practical reality.

And my dishes are done.

363 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:15:41pm

re: #349 albusteve

abortion is one of the oldest, most contentious subjects at LGF...it's all been discussed before...you have your petty 'victory', but it is neither original or profound, for some people it's just another game played staring into a monitor...HAIL!

Oh of course, and I understand that

I have no problem with people who are arguing honestly about abortion, who have an honest belief that life begins at conception. It's a philosophical distinction. When I argue, I argue about the politics around abortion, I argue about the legal implications of banning abortion or calling it murder (every miscarriage suddenly being a potential homicide, etc)

Now, researchok is not being honest, he's claiming he's pro-choice as a rhetorical tool to defend the gop and claim that the GOP isn't limiting rights

The issue was not so much abortion as the issue was this: Is the GOP anti-choice?

And he wants to run interference and whitewash the GOP.

And you're correct in that it is a bit of a game played into a monitor. Some people come here because they want to be part of a community, some people come here to argue. I came here to argue politics, that's what I do here. If I'm not supposed to do that, what's the point? If you don't care about the argument, hey great. But I do, the politics and the legislative ramifications around choice and around medical procedures and health in general is a thing I care very much about, health care is my biggest political issue, more than anything else

364 darthstar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:16:13pm
365 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:17:02pm

re: #343 cliffster

9 in 10 gay kids harassed in school last year.

[Link: www.glsen.org...]

Of course, it's hard to put structure around a response that one was "verbally harassed (85% said so)", but the others are pretty clear. Sad report


Call me a cynic but if you told me only 85% of kids were harassed in school last year I would be surprised at how low the rate is. Now ask me the reasons they were harassed and the gays would have been harassed for being gay, the blacks would be harassed for being black, the girls would have been harassed for being girls, the short kids would have been harassed for being short...

I'm not advocating for harassment but school is a cruel and cliquish place. It would be more informative to know if being gay is a significant factor in harassment over and above other groups. My guess is that it is statistically significantly higher as it would be for minority groups of any type.

Now that I've picked on the methodology let me say the study does make some good points. That harassed students feel less safe and are lower performers academically. The incidents are down over the last decade and those schools that have support groups in place fare better for gay students.

366 darthstar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:17:27pm

re: #359 deranged cat

lol.. the stupid cesspool commenters of politico:

It'll be a few years before the outbreak of stupid that washed over this country in reaction to having a black president elected wears off.

367 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:17:27pm

re: #358 Fozzie Bear

And they are also on record as being opposed to its legality, as I referenced above. It is also worth noting that BOTH of them only said so during confirmation hearings. That isn't an endorsement of Roe V. Wade, that is a dodge. Both are opposed to legal abortion, and are on record as saying so, as the links I gave above prove.

I saw the links. Some of the remarks are puzzling to me. For example, Roberts also says, "It’s settled as a precedent of the court, entitled to respect under principles of stare decisis. And those principles, applied in the Casey case, explain when cases should be revisited and when they should not. And it is settled as a precedent of the court, yes.“

I'm not a constitutional lawyer, so I can't really opine on any of this.

You may be right, but I suspect if that were really the case, we'd be hearing a whole lot more about this from both sides.

368 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:18:15pm

re: #357 researchok

You may be right.

All I have to go on is what they are on record as having said. Scalia has made his opinion known as have the others. As for your other remarks, I really don't know. Have any justices said that their references to 'settled law' are conditional?

The concept is called "stare decisis".

In a legal context, this is understood to mean that courts should generally abide by precedents and not disturb settled matters

So they have to wait for a case that differs form the original one before they'll review it. Not set in stone by any means. Constant vigilance is required for this freedom more than most.

369 palomino  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:18:23pm

re: #354 researchok

We do not know how the SCOTUS will vote.

As I noted, at least 2 of the newer appointees have said on record that abortion is steeled law.

Roberts and Alito said that during SC hearings so as not to cause an uproar. In other venues, they've expressed different opinions.

Either way, your contention that we are nowhere near abortion rights being overturned simply isn't supported by the facts relating to the SC.

370 Linden Arden  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:18:24pm

Conservatives are opposed to the Right to Privacy of which abortion is low --comparatively speaking.

The Right to Privacy came from Griswold v. Connecticut in which contraception (the pill) was deemed Constitutional against Church orthodoxy.

Conservatives have screamed like children since.

371 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:18:24pm

re: #355 cliffster

played in the rainfall of fiercely piercing downdings

He's being dismissive, but he's really not wrong

I'm not here to be profound, everything I've said everyone has heard before ;-)

Sorta like sport. The 2 millionth time someone throws a deep pass, is it profound? No, but we still play sports

If I had anything truly profound to say, I'd be saying it on my own blog. The only things I have to say that I believe are profound are not expressed in words

372 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:18:41pm

re: #346 palomino

Do you understand how Supreme Court decisions work? States can't ban abortion outright until Roe v Wade is overturned. Overturning Roe is the great white whale for the gop base--think of it as the gop equivalent of health care reform for the Dems.

Wow. That may be an overstatement. Even as a moderate/conservative I can't see the left wanting to provide universal healthcare in the same ballpark as making abortion illegal. One is a policy and fiscal model - the other is government sponsored morality.

373 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:19:24pm

re: #370 Linden Arden

Conservatives are opposed to the Right to Privacy of which abortion is low --comparatively speaking.

The Right to Privacy came from Griswold v. Connecticut in which contraception (the pill) was deemed Constitutional against Church orthodoxy.

Conservatives have screamed like children since.

Let's just sit and contemplate that:

you had people (still do) who want to prevent BIRTH CONTROL ITSELF

So amazing

374 celticdragon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:20:14pm

re: #46 researchok

Sorry, but after decades of state houses and local governments dominated by GOP majorities, if all you can show me is a PR piece, you've made my point.

Uh, yeah...

South Dakota bans most abortions

March 06, 2006

South Dakota Gov. Mike Rounds signed a bill Monday that bans nearly all abortions in the state, legislation in direct conflict with the Supreme Court's Roe v. Wade decision that legalized abortion in 1973.

[Link: articles.cnn.com...]

South Dakota is supposedly sitting on legislation that would automatically ban all abortions the very day that a conformed 5th anti choice justice is seated on the SCOTUS. I can't conform that right now.

Virginia is going one further... trying to regulate all the clinics out of business. Abortion is then de facto illegal, since nobody will be able to afford the regulatory requirements.

If the board were to follow Cuccinelli's advice, the state's 21 abortion clinics would be subject to the same requirements as hospitals. In order to comply, they would have to undergo structural renovations and obtain staff members with new qualifications. The cost of these requirements would, Virginia abortion rights advocates estimate, put 17 of the state's 21 clinics out of business.

"We predict it's about $1.5 to $2 million per clinic in extra cost," Keene said. "It's just crazy. And the thing is, it's really just designed to shut these places down. It has nothing to do with medical care."

She pointed to other outpatient offices performing procedures such as colonoscopies, breast augmentations, and rhinoplasty. "These types of procedures have a much higher complication rate than abortion. [First-trimester abortion] is one of the most common procedures, and it's one of the safest procedures," Keene said. "It's interesting that they are not targeting these other surgeries. It's only abortion clinics -- that's why we call this TRAP."

Atty Gen Cuccinelli is a real darling.

In his seven months as attorney general, Cuccinelli has drawn national attention for challenging the federal health care reform law, launching an investigation into University of Virginia climate scientist Michael Mann, and authorizing Virginia police to check the immigration status of anyone they stop for another reason. He has been hailed as a Tea Party star and champion of social conservatives.

Also the same guy in Virginia who advocated requiring all state colleges to scrape hiring policies that protect glbt people.

375 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:20:37pm

re: #365 DaddyG

Gay people are more harrassed in school than other people, that is just the truth.

376 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:20:37pm

re: #372 DaddyG

Wow. That may be an overstatement. Even as a moderate/conservative I can't see the left wanting to provide universal healthcare in the same ballpark as making abortion illegal. One is a policy and fiscal model - the other is government sponsored morality.

You could say both are government sponsored morality. And both are policy. Only one is a fiscal model, though.

377 HappyWarrior  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:21:02pm

re: #374 celticdragon

[Link: articles.cnn.com...] rtion_1_abortion-bans-mike-rounds-incest-case?_s=P M:POLITICS

South Dakota is supposedly sitting on legislation that would automatically ban all abortions the very day that a conformed 5th anti choice justice is seated on the SCOTUS. I can't conform that right now.

Virginia is going one further... trying to regulate all the clinics out of business. Abortion is then de facto illegal, since nobody will be able to afford the regulatory requirements.

Atty Gen Cuccinelli is a real darling.

Also the same guy in Virginia who advocated requiring all state colleges to scrape hiring policies that protect glbt people.

Agh Cuccinelli is such a dick.

378 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:21:15pm

re: #363 WindUpBird

Oh of course, and I understand that

I have no problem with people who are arguing honestly about abortion, who have an honest belief that life begins at conception. It's a philosophical distinction. When I argue, I argue about the politics around abortion, I argue about the legal implications of banning abortion or calling it murder (every miscarriage suddenly being a potential homicide, etc)

Now, researchok is not being honest, he's claiming he's pro-choice as a rhetorical tool to defend the gop and claim that the GOP isn't limiting rights

The issue was not so much abortion as the issue was this: Is the GOP anti-choice?

And he wants to run interference and whitewash the GOP.

And you're correct in that it is a bit of a game played into a monitor. Some people come here because they want to be part of a community, some people come here to argue. I came here to argue politics, that's what I do here. If I'm not supposed to do that, what's the point? If you don't care about the argument, hey great. But I do, the politics and the legislative ramifications around choice and around medical procedures and health in general is a thing I care very much about, health care is my biggest political issue, more than anything else

If you're going to say I'm not honest about my feelings about my pro choice position you are either an idiot or as liar. My position as being clearly pro choice stems from a moral position, not from a political one. That decision was not arrived at easily. For you to brush it aside is indicative of either your complete misunderstanding of what I said or deliberate deceit on your part.

Which is it?

379 Reginald Perrin  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:22:13pm

re: #336 alexknyc

Just got back from voting.

It's amazing, the looks of disgust I got from poll workers when they saw I was a registered Republican.

Did you check to make sure your remembered to zip up when you left the bathroom?

380 Linden Arden  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:22:45pm

re: #373 WindUpBird

Let's just sit and contemplate that:

you had people (still do) who want to prevent BIRTH CONTROL ITSELF

So amazing

Contraception is a matter for the public to decide (for conservatives).

381 darthstar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:22:54pm

re: #379 Reginald Perrin

Did you check to make sure your remembered to zip up when you left the bathroom?

Tap your toe to support the Teabagger candidate?

382 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:22:55pm

re: #361 b_sharp

Life isn't something magical, it's the interaction of several electro-chemical processes. A blastocyst is just a bunch of cells, every bit as much as a new born baby is a human.


I've had seven children and passed biology class. There is definately something magical about the creation of a life even on a biological level.

(Yeah I know what you mean by magical...) and I'm being a bit obtuse, but the creation of life is not something to be treated casually IMO. Some sensitivity to those who those who do would go a longer way towards understanding.

Telling a Catholic or Evangelical a potential life is "just cells" is as in your face as them telling you your "going to hell".

But I promise not to get too bent out of shape over it.

383 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:23:20pm

re: #365 DaddyG

This is real stuff, please don't bring in the false equivalencies with it:

Massachusetts residents are four times more likely to kill themselves than die by homicide, far higher than the national trend, and gay high school students attempt suicide at a particularly high rate, according to the first analysis done of suicide in Massachusetts.

The Department of Public Health study, to be released in May, found that there were 503 suicides and 123 homicides in Massachusetts in 1998, the most recent year with data available.

State officials say the suicide-murder ratio probably hasn't changed since then; if anything, the number of suicides may be higher because they are considered underreported by 20 percent to 30 percent.

Nationwide, there were about 30,000 suicides and 18,000 homicides in 1998, according to the data.

The study also found that about 10 percent of Massachusetts high school students attempted suicide, according to a survey of about 4,000 students in 1997. Broken down by sexual orientation, about 40 percent of gay and bisexual students attempted suicide, compared to about 10 percent of their heterosexual peers.

Ellen Connorton, coordinator of violence prevention and intentional injury at DPH, said gay students are not considered predisposed to suicide.

''They are no more mentally unstable than other students, but they are susceptible to victimization by their peers,'' Connorton said.

A big part of it is that your statement that black kids are harrassed by being black?

They probably aren't being harrassed by their own families for being black.

See the difference?

384 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:23:52pm

re: #368 wrenchwench

The concept is called "stare decisis".

So they have to wait for a case that differs form the original one before they'll review it. Not set in stone by any means. Constant vigilance is required for this freedom more than most.

Clearly, you know more about this than I.

I can imagine one hell of an argument in court!

385 Kragar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:24:10pm

re: #380 Linden Arden

Contraception is a matter for the public to decide (for conservatives).

And yet they pass sodomy laws as well.
/

386 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:24:14pm

re: #336 alexknyc

Just got back from voting.

It's amazing, the looks of disgust I got from poll workers when they saw I was a registered Republican.

That's one thing I love about Wisconsin. No party registration. We give you a ballot with all the parties on it and you can vote for one of them. Try to vote for two and the whole ballot is DQ. Works a treat and your party preference is as private as your vote.

387 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:24:18pm

re: #379 Reginald Perrin

Did you check to make sure your remembered to zip up when you left the bathroom?

Why don't you just call alexknyc a homosexual?

388 alexknyc  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:24:31pm

re: #379 Reginald Perrin

Did you check to make sure your remembered to zip up when you left the bathroom?

I must have remembered to zip.

I didn't step on it.
/

389 palomino  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:24:52pm

re: #372 DaddyG

Wow. That may be an overstatement. Even as a moderate/conservative I can't see the left wanting to provide universal healthcare in the same ballpark as making abortion illegal. One is a policy and fiscal model - the other is government sponsored morality.

My point is a political one. For decades, Dems salivated over getting health care reform passed--it was one of their biggest goals for 50 years. They finally got something done and felt like it was a "big fucking deal."

Likewise, for decades, the gop has been salivating over the repeal of Roe v Wade, which would then return the issue to state govts. A constitutional amendment would be required to then actually outlaw abortion nationwide. The amendment has no chance due to the difficulty in passing new ones, but the overturning of Roe is a possibility.

390 darthstar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:24:58pm

re: #368 wrenchwench

The concept is called "stare decisis".

So they have to wait for a case that differs form the original one before they'll review it. Not set in stone by any means. Constant vigilance is required for this freedom more than most.

Chief Justice Roberts lied about his views on stare decisis. Citizens United proved that.

391 celticdragon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:25:12pm

re: #354 researchok

We do not know how the SCOTUS will vote.

As I noted, at least 2 of the newer appointees have said on record that abortion is steeled law.

Which is why Movement GOP policy is to control the courts and destroy affirmative action, hate crime laws and abortion. Bonus points for undoing the Griswold V Conn. decision that affirmed a basic right to privacy and made contraception legal.

Yes, the social conservatives want to get rid of that one too. No more birth control pills or condoms in Utah or in conservative Catholic areas...

I should know. I was one of the true believers.

392 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:25:12pm

re: #367 researchok

I saw the links. Some of the remarks are puzzling to me. For example, Roberts also says, "It’s settled as a precedent of the court, entitled to respect under principles of stare decisis. And those principles, applied in the Casey case, explain when cases should be revisited and when they should not. And it is settled as a precedent of the court, yes.“

I'm not a constitutional lawyer, so I can't really opine on any of this.

You may be right, but I suspect if that were really the case, we'd be hearing a whole lot more about this from both sides.

Well, there is much written about the issue, all of which is studiously ignored or mocked by the GOP. You won't find any of this discussed except on the left. There are real, and grave threats to the legality of abortion in the united states. Most legal scholars agree that the court is 5-4 on the issue of abortion remaining legal, and thus, one appointment away from Roe V. Wade being overturned.

As for the bolded quote, i'll translate for you: "this issue has been decided, and I am not currently presiding over a case which would possibly challenge the law as it now stands, and thus, I will offer no comment." When someone refers to stare decisis, that doesn't mean that they believe the issue to be settled beyond challenge, but rather that a case doesn't currently exist which would allow them to examine the issue. It is an issue of ripeness, not a proclamation of agreement with Roe V. Wade. It is also a classic dodge. Judges and justices HATE being asked to rule on hypothetical cases, or on broad issues, because that just isn't how the judiciary operates. They decide on the basis of specific cases, which present to them specific arrangements of fact patterns and issues. The decisions they render only have meaning relative to those fact patterns. This is why, in legal briefs, when citing case law, such citations are often accompanied by brief descriptions of the case in question, rather than just citing a decision as applicable in all cases relating to the issue at hand.

393 ErikJ76  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:25:26pm

re: #330 researchok

Why is my position so different from similar positions by many on the left? They see abortion as a tragedy and many believe there are too many abortions. Are they 'suspect' in there pro choice positions also?

See this American Prospect article (and that are hardly right wing!)

There isn't a lot of people who think that there aren't enough abortions, and would want more to be carried out.

The difference between people on the left and the right is that people on the right tend to believe that the solution is to ban abortion. People on the left tend not to see banning the practice as the solution but more working towards fewer needing to have abortions, whether through sex education, contraceptives or morning after pills.

394 darthstar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:25:30pm

re: #390 darthstar

Chief Justice Roberts lied about his views on stare decisis. Citizens United proved that.

Oh, and his wife is a big anti-choice advocate as well.

395 alexknyc  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:26:30pm

re: #381 darthstar

Tap your toe to support the Teabagger candidate?

No need.

Larry Craig wasn't on the ballot.

396 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:26:40pm

re: #378 researchok

If you're going to say I'm not honest about my feelings about my pro choice position you are either an idiot or as liar. My position as being clearly pro choice stems from a moral position, not from a political one. That decision was not arrived at easily. For you to brush it aside is indicative of either your complete misunderstanding of what I said or deliberate deceit on your part.

Which is it?

I don't misunderstand you at all!

Much to your dismay, I know exactly what you're doing

Your words are a facade, you are defending the GOP, and everything rotates around that. You'll move your argument around, you'll flat out deny the GOP's own platform, you'll flat out deny what is happening in local governments, you'll evade, you make baseless assertions that are dismantled like so many tinkertoys by myself and others, and then you dig in and get indignant

It's not hard to see what you're doing, it's not hard at all, the motivations are clear, you're partisan first

397 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:26:57pm

re: #374 celticdragon

[Link: articles.cnn.com...] rtion_1_abortion-bans-mike-rounds-incest-case?_s=P M:POLITICS

South Dakota is supposedly sitting on legislation that would automatically ban all abortions the very day that a conformed 5th anti choice justice is seated on the SCOTUS. I can't conform that right now.

Virginia is going one further... trying to regulate all the clinics out of business. Abortion is then de facto illegal, since nobody will be able to afford the regulatory requirements.

Atty Gen Cuccinelli is a real darling.

Also the same guy in Virginia who advocated requiring all state colleges to scrape hiring policies that protect glbt people.

So far, abortions in SD are still legal

398 Linden Arden  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:27:13pm

re: #385 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And yet they pass sodomy laws as well.
/

That one is Lawrence v. Texas where SCOTUS conservatives voted anti-sodomy laws were Constitutional even when police illegally entered a private home where two gay men lived.

399 darthstar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:27:37pm

re: #354 researchok

We do not know how the SCOTUS will vote.

As I noted, at least 2 of the newer appointees have said on record that abortion is steeled law.

Newer appointees:
Roberts (Bush)
Alito (Bush)
Sotomayor (Obama)
Kagan (Obama)

Hm...which two, I wonder. (Roberts' wife is an anti-choice advocate, by the way)

400 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:27:45pm

re: #375 WindUpBird

Gay people are more harrassed in school than other people, that is just the truth.


I don't doubt it. But I'd like to see the researchers take a more neutral stance in their questions so that the stats bear it out plainly. I'm always wary of advocacy studies.

Anyway I thought their conclusions were solid. That schools with gay-straight alliances and administrators who were actively involved were better environments for gay students. The other bright spot was the downward trend of harassment cases. Although approaching zero would be better.

401 Buck  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:27:46pm

re: #55 Obdicut

I am not sure what form of evidence you will accept (that this is fear mongering on the part of the left), and that there is no real threat to a womans right to choose.

Let me start this way. If you could get an old yellow pages from 2000, and compared the number of abortion clinics to a 2008 yellow pages, I would bet that you would see an INCREASE, and not a decrease. That might show that there is a greater access to abortion during the last republican administration.

In the same way, I would probably be able to show that there was a greater number of US same sex marriages in 2008 than in 1999.

However, this is not about restricting a womans right to choose. That decision has already been made. No President is going to be able change that. A President might be personally opposed to it, but he/she swears to uphold the constitution. It is clear fear mongering to say that the GOP or Armey plan to put an end to an adult woman's right to choose. It just isn't so.

However, on a completely different subject is government funding for abortions. Not federal funding for birth control, don't confuse them. Public funding for abortions, and in this case public funding for international abortions.

So, it is perfectly fair to ask the question does Armey, or the GOP support public funding for international abortions?

The answer is probably no. It is perfectly fair to ask the President the same question...does he support public funding for international abortions?

However, to characterize this as support for a BAN on a womans right to choose is misleading at best, and probably fear mongering at it's core.

402 alexknyc  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:28:06pm

re: #386 wlewisiii

That's one thing I love about Wisconsin. No party registration. We give you a ballot with all the parties on it and you can vote for one of them. Try to vote for two and the whole ballot is DQ. Works a treat and your party preference is as private as your vote.

Never work here in NYC.

They need to keep track of us Republicans so they know who to ship off to the FEMA camps.

/ (do I have to?)

403 HappyWarrior  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:28:10pm

re: #398 Linden Arden

That one is Lawrence v. Texas where SCOTUS conservatives voted anti-sodomy laws were Constitutional even when police illegally entered a private home where two gay men lived.

Wonder why you didn't hear judical activism shouted from the streets when that happens? Oh what was that? That's right "judicial activism" is just whine speak for when a judge rules against my philosophy.

404 cliffster  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:29:06pm

re: #365 DaddyG

Call me a cynic but if you told me only 85% of kids were harassed in school last year I would be surprised at how low the rate is. Now ask me the reasons they were harassed and the gays would have been harassed for being gay, the blacks would be harassed for being black, the girls would have been harassed for being girls, the short kids would have been harassed for being short...

Well, first off, there's the other statistics. "40.1% reported being physically harassed and 18.8% reported being physically assaulted at school in the past year because of their sexual orientation." That's more concrete. Of course every kid gets picked on, but most kids don't get assaulted, and when they do they were probably not "just minding their own business". For gay kids, that is generally what is going on.

Second, I think kids that are gay probably feel excluded for that more so than what other kids go through. It's just a tough life, and it's also tough to build statistics to adequately describe it.

405 theheat  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:29:41pm

re: #394 darthstar

Now that I think about it, that was one more reason I didn't vote GOP in the last election: judge nominations. Seeing how the GOP was, more and more, being bought and paid for by fundies, I hoped for a little more liberal interpretation of the law as far as personal rights are concerned. Actually, that was one (more) big reason I voted Dem. I'd kinda forgotten about that until now.

406 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:30:20pm

Not "by-the-way", but more on-topic than most of the thread:

Her's just one reason that Armey is an evil dick to put restrictions on funding for women's health care in poor countries:

Obstetric fistula

407 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:30:21pm

re: #382 DaddyG

I've had seven children and passed biology class. There is definately something magical about the creation of a life even on a biological level.

(Yeah I know what you mean by magical...) and I'm being a bit obtuse, but the creation of life is not something to be treated casually IMO. Some sensitivity to those who those who do would go a longer way towards understanding.

Telling a Catholic or Evangelical a potential life is "just cells" is as in your face as them telling you your "going to hell".

But I promise not to get too bent out of shape over it.

A philosophical difference of opinion about the nature of life is a little different than promising someone torment in the afterlife. And telling someone they're going to hell often brings with it a whole lot of other baggage (cough OMG GAY cough) a lot of creepy tribalism. A lot pof people secure enough in their own philosophy that they're convinced those who disagree with them will literally go to a place of eternal torment? Very bizarre to me. it's not something done in polite company, you don't talk about people being tormented when you're being civil.

If an athiest says a human life is just cells, and that athiest is incredibly studied on philosophy, would you still claim they're treating it casually?

What if they come to that conclusion after months of deliberation?

408 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:30:46pm

re: #391 celticdragon

Which is why Movement GOP policy is to control the courts and destroy affirmative action, hate crime laws and abortion. Bonus points for undoing the Griswold V Conn. decision that affirmed a basic right to privacy and made contraception legal.

Yes, the social conservatives want to get rid of that one too. No more birth control pills or condoms in Utah or in conservative Catholic areas...

I should know. I was one of the true believers.


Bone up on Utah a bit more. The LDS Church believes in contraception, abortion in the case of incest, rape and health risk to the mother and allowing others to worship in their own way. The recent contribution of non monitary support to Prop 8 was a bad (IMO) exception to their hands of government policy.

409 celticdragon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:31:14pm

re: #397 researchok

So far, abortions in SD are still legal

It wasn't for lack of trying...which you claimed they were not doing.

You are moving the goal posts.

SD tried to make abortion illegal under all except the most oblique circumstances. They failed for now. You are on record in this thread saying that state GOP pols were not really trying to do much at all. You have been proven wrong several times over.

410 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:32:48pm

re: #396 WindUpBird

I don't misunderstand you at all!

Much to your dismay, I know exactly what you're doing

Your words are a facade, you are defending the GOP, and everything rotates around that. You'll move your argument around, you'll flat out deny the GOP's own platform, you'll flat out deny what is happening in local governments, you'll evade, you make baseless assertions that are dismantled like so many tinkertoys by myself and others, and then you dig in and get indignant

It's not hard to see what you're doing, it's not hard at all, the motivations are clear, you're partisan first

That's nice.

Now let's be substantive- where have I been deceitful?

You are making all kinds of assertions, predicated on innuendo and deceit.

And you, of all people, are not in a position to talk about the moral choices people make- given your own published remarks.

I stand by my remarks re the GOP political realities. It is my opinion that they are trying to capture a fragmented voter population. If there were a real GOP move to ban abortion it would have started a long time ago in state houses and county seats. That has not happened in grteat number.

Now, be substantive: Where have I been deceitful on the issue?

411 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:33:33pm

re: #410 researchok

We're done baby, all you need do is read the thread and remind yourself

412 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:34:07pm

re: #411 WindUpBird

We're done baby, all you need do is read the thread and remind yourself

I understand.

If I were you, I'd quit now too.

413 pharmmajor  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:34:44pm

Yet another reason to vote Libertarian: they support a woman's right to have an abortion.

414 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:34:51pm

re: #383 WindUpBird

This is real stuff, please don't bring in the false equivalencies with it:


A big part of it is that your statement that black kids are harrassed by being black?

They probably aren't being harrassed by their own families for being black.

See the difference?

Wow. You read too much into my post. I was wary of the researchers failure to cross tabulate their findings with other school students. I have no beef with their advocacy. (And I wasn't equivocating - I said there rates vs. the general student population are likely to be higher in my first post.)

I probably have my head too deep into social research to be neutral about the methods.

415 Reginald Perrin  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:36:00pm

re: #381 darthstar

Tap your toe to support the Teabagger candidate?

That's not what I meant, I'm middle aged and have been embarrassed a couple times because I neglected to zip up. alexknyc , hope you didn't take it to mean anything else, it didn't.

416 celticdragon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:36:09pm

re: #398 Linden Arden

That one is Lawrence v. Texas where SCOTUS conservatives voted anti-sodomy laws were Constitutional even when police illegally entered a private home where two gay men lived.

Scalia has stated that the Constitution does not protect a factually innocent person from being executed so long as procedures were followed.

Not surprising he has no problem with gay bashing Texans.

This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is “actually” innocent. Quite to the contrary, we have repeatedly left that question unresolved, while expressing considerable doubt that any claim based on alleged “actual innocence” is constitutionally cognizable.

So in Justice Scalia’s world, the law has no problem with sending an innocent man to die. One wonders why we even bother to have a Constitution.


Indeed.

417 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:36:11pm

re: #413 pharmmajor

Yet another reason to vote Libertarian: they support a woman's right to have an abortion.

Except for Ron Paul, Rand Paul, and who knows who else. In other words, not a reliable indicator.

418 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:36:27pm

Look, it is absolutely clear that the GOP, on both the national and state levels, is strongly opposed to the continuing legality of abortion. That has been proven a dozen times now in this thread alone.

What remains is speculation as to whether they have the power to do so. There is a strong case to be made that the GOP is only *ONE* SCOTUS vote away from overturning Roe V. Wade, which would in turn open the way for a constitutional amendment.

The first paragraph represents absolute fact, the second, strongly supported but less so than the first. This is where we are regarding abortion, as a nation.

The GOP is absolutely opposed to the legality of abortion, as a platform issue.

419 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:36:43pm

re: #407 WindUpBird

They should still be sensitive to the fact that others may disagree with them. That was my point.

Being sensitive to others viewpoints and beliefs does not mean you have to give yours up.

For the record I don't tell people they are going to hell either.

420 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:37:34pm

re: #409 celticdragon

It wasn't for lack of trying...which you claimed they were not doing.

You are moving the goal posts.

SD tried to make abortion illegal under all except the most oblique circumstances. They failed for now. You are on record in this thread saying that state GOP pols were not really trying to do much at all. You have been proven wrong several times over.

I said there were a few jurisdictions. There was and is no huge movement.

Lots of talk, but not much more.

421 celticdragon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:38:14pm

re: #408 DaddyG

What I have heard from Utah pols does not really jibe with what you are saying.

422 alexknyc  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:38:48pm

re: #413 pharmmajor

Yet another reason to vote Libertarian: they support a woman's right to have an abortion.

I'd love to take the Libertarian party out of the hands of the whack jobs.

Good luck to me.

(No thanks, Ojoe, I'm not interested in the Whigs)

423 alexknyc  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:39:29pm

re: #415 Reginald Perrin

That's not what I meant, I'm middle aged and have been embarrassed a couple times because I neglected to zip up. alexknyc , hope you didn't take it to mean anything else, it didn't.

Didn't take it to mean anything at all.

It's all good on my end.

424 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:39:38pm

re: #421 celticdragon

What I have heard from Utah pols does not really jibe with what you are saying.

No, he's perfectly accurate in LDS teachings. The last time I heard anything about contraception in an official meeting was over 10 years ago, and it was to re-affirm that the mother's mental health was a valid reason to use contraception to postpone or prevent pregnancy.

425 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:39:44pm

re: #420 researchok

I said there were a few jurisdictions. There was and is no huge movement.

Lots of talk, but not much more.

Except that there is one huge movement, known as the GOP, which you have studiously avoided admitting. It is absolutely a plank on their platform nationally to work toward the banning of abortion. it is also a plank on the platform on 88% of all state GOP parties, and 100% of GOP parties in states which have republican-controlled legislatures.

What is so hard to understand about this? The GOP is the huge movement.

426 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:40:42pm

re: #421 celticdragon

What I have heard from Utah pols does not really jibe with what you are saying.


I would be interested in finding out if these pols were Mormon (in which case they don't know their own doctrines concerning contraception) and which were Evangelical, Catholic or other.

I'd be very interested in any source for a Utah politician who wants to outlaw contraception. I think that is overstated.

427 cliffster  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:40:56pm

re: #418 Fozzie Bear

a constitutional amendment, eh? do you have any idea what it takes to get a constitutional amendment done?

either way, if there was such an amendment, it would render roe/wade irrelevant.

428 darthstar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:40:58pm

re: #415 Reginald Perrin

That's not what I meant, I'm middle aged and have been embarrassed a couple times because I neglected to zip up. alexknyc , hope you didn't take it to mean anything else, it didn't.

Heh...I've done the same...love that cool breeze until I realize what it means. :)

429 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:42:24pm

re: #424 EmmmieG

No, he's perfectly accurate in LDS teachings. The last time I heard anything about contraception in an official meeting was over 10 years ago, and it was to re-affirm that the mother's mental health was a valid reason to use contraception to postpone or prevent pregnancy.


In fairness I convluted Utah polls with LDS not Celticdragon. (My hackles go up when I think people are making assumptions about LDS or equate them to the Fundies who would outlaw abortion all together.)

430 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:42:31pm

re: #427 cliffster

a constitutional amendment, eh? do you have any idea what it takes to get a constitutional amendment done?

either way, if there was such an amendment, it would render roe/wade irrelevant.

Actually, no. A constitutional amendment would directly contradict Roe V Wade is it currently stands, and thus it would be struck down immediately. Thus, Roe V Wade would have to be overturned first, then an amendment could be passed.

431 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:42:56pm

re: #382 DaddyG

I've had seven children and passed biology class. There is definately something magical about the creation of a life even on a biological level.

(Yeah I know what you mean by magical...) and I'm being a bit obtuse, but the creation of life is not something to be treated casually IMO. Some sensitivity to those who those who do would go a longer way towards understanding.

Telling a Catholic or Evangelical a potential life is "just cells" is as in your face as them telling you your "going to hell".

But I promise not to get too bent out of shape over it.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to insult you. I guess my point is that the separation of human life from all other life is an artificial one, it's not based on anything physical. On the other hand, there is a difference between what exists at the time of conception and the time of birth. At the time of conception, the major difference between mammals is in the environment that quickly replicating bunch of cells finds itself. Whether that package of DNA becomes a human is as much a result of growing in a human womb as it is the particular sequences found in the DNA.

Throw that zygote into a different mammal, and should it actually survive, it wouldn't become what we would call a human, despite having human DNA.

Placing a special significance on that fertilized ovum, is, I suppose, part of being religious, but I think there are more accurate states later in development when a putative soul can be assigned to the foetus.

432 celticdragon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:43:07pm

re: #424 EmmmieG

No, he's perfectly accurate in LDS teachings. The last time I heard anything about contraception in an official meeting was over 10 years ago, and it was to re-affirm that the mother's mental health was a valid reason to use contraception to postpone or prevent pregnancy.

Are we basically saying that LDS teachings and state law are one and the same at this point? That would be an interesting admission.

The last time I heard anything about contraception in an official meeting was over 10 years ago, and it was to re-affirm that the mother's mental health was a valid reason to use contraception to postpone or prevent pregnancy.

That is an admission of a regulatory framework and over-site of individual private decisions right there.

433 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:43:08pm

re: #425 Fozzie Bear

Except that there is one huge movement, known as the GOP, which you have studiously avoided admitting. It is absolutely a plank on their platform nationally to work toward the banning of abortion. it is also a plank on the platform on 88% of all state GOP parties, and 100% of GOP parties in states which have republican-controlled legislatures.

What is so hard to understand about this? The GOP is the huge movement.

I understand what you are saying- I really do.

My contention is that just because there is a platform plank, doesn't make that plank sacred.

Remember the brouhaha the Super delegates were in Dem National Convention? Their position was cemented into the Dem platform.

Does that mean the Dems are anti democratic? Of course not! It was a political ploy.

See this, Democratic Party to Keep Controversial Superdelegates

434 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:43:16pm

re: #425 Fozzie Bear

The GOP is the huge movement.

Hee hee.. he said huge movement.

/Best Beavis and Butthead voice

435 garhighway  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:43:59pm

re: #49 researchok

A couple of jurisdictions do not a movement make.

By the way, I'm pro choice.

Of course you are. That is why you are trying so hard to persuade yourself that the GOP hasn't gone batshit on you. If you really faced reality, you would have to make a hard choice.

I sympathize. But I suspect that sometime in the next few months you really will have to face facts about the current state of the GOP.

436 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:44:05pm

re: #431 b_sharp
Well stated.

437 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:44:07pm

re: #388 alexknyc

I must have remembered to zip.

I didn't step on it.
/

You must have a hell of a time not stumbling when you get out of the shower.

438 alexknyc  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:44:27pm

re: #430 Fozzie Bear

Actually, no. A constitutional amendment would directly contradict Roe V Wade is it currently stands, and thus it would be struck down immediately. Thus, Roe V Wade would have to be overturned first, then an amendment could be passed.

An anti-abortion amendment would trump the decision.

439 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:44:32pm

re: #434 DaddyG

Hee hee.. he said huge movement.

/Best Beavis and Butthead voice

That made me laugh!

Also, as in Beethoven's Last Movement...

Now we're going downhill.

440 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:45:21pm

re: #432 celticdragon

Are we basically saying that LDS teachings and state law are one and the same at this point? That would be an interesting admission.

That is an admission of a regulatory framework and over-site of individual private decisions right there.

I've met people in Utah who were "LDS" who had never attended church and hadn't the faintest idea what the teachings were, so, no, they are not the same.

441 garhighway  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:46:03pm

re: #438 alexknyc

An anti-abortion amendment would trump the decision.

Correct. The constitution trumps all.

442 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:46:21pm

re: #432 celticdragon

Are we basically saying that LDS teachings and state law are one and the same at this point? That would be an interesting admission.


That is an admission of a regulatory framework and over-site of individual private decisions right there.


Um no. and Emmie was talking about Sunday SChool class not politics. My origianl point which was a bit off base general to Utah politics is that the LDS Church does not prohibit all abortion and certainly hasn't made any moves to outlaw contraceptives in Utah.

443 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:46:26pm

re: #438 alexknyc

An anti-abortion amendment would trump the decision.

Not directly. They would have to also explicitly deny any right to a woman's control over her own body, which would require editing out large swaths of the constitution. An easier path would be to overturn RvW, then they wouldn't have to mess with all the bits of the constitution upon which RvW is based.

There are two paths constitutionally, and one of them is a whole lot messier and unlikely than the other.

444 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:47:11pm

re: #443 Fozzie Bear

In either case, I would be leaving the country directly. I'd rather not live to see the Handmaid's Tale made real.

445 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:47:17pm

re: #435 garhighway

Of course you are. That is why you are trying so hard to persuade yourself that the GOP hasn't gone batshit on you. If you really faced reality, you would have to make a hard choice.

I sympathize. But I suspect that sometime in the next few months you really will have to face facts about the current state of the GOP.

You know what? That is the first rational argument I've heard all day!

I have to think about that for a bit. That said, there are a lot of lonely conservatives like myself out there,wondering what the hell happened to the GOP.

There are a lot of us.

446 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:48:20pm

re: #445 researchok

You know what? That is the first rational argument I've heard all day!

I have to think about that for a bit. That said, there are a lot of lonely conservatives like myself out there,wondering what the hell happened to the GOP.

There are a lot of us.

It's sad that you chose to ignore an entire thread, until a post came along and personalized it for you.

447 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:49:05pm

And now, I must go have an abortion dinner. I'm starving.

Goodnight, lizards.

448 alexknyc  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:49:11pm

re: #443 Fozzie Bear

Not directly. They would have to also explicitly deny any right to a woman's control over her own body, which would require editing out large swaths of the constitution. An easier path would be to overturn RvW, then they wouldn't have to mess with all the bits of the constitution upon which RvW is based.

There are two paths constitutionally, and one of them is a whole lot messier and unlikely than the other.

An amendment with wording like "Nothing in this Constitution shall be construed to support legalized abortion" wouldn't require anything else.

449 cliffster  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:49:48pm

re: #430 Fozzie Bear

Actually, no. A constitutional amendment would directly contradict Roe V Wade is it currently stands, and thus it would be struck down immediately. Thus, Roe V Wade would have to be overturned first, then an amendment could be passed.

Hehe, a constitutional amendment would be struck down? As what, unconstitutional??

450 alexknyc  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:50:04pm

re: #445 researchok

You know what? That is the first rational argument I've heard all day!

I have to think about that for a bit. That said, there are a lot of lonely conservatives like myself out there,wondering what the hell happened to the GOP.

There are a lot of us.

Some of us are lonely moderates but the point remains the same.

This is not the GOP I used to know.

451 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:50:31pm

re: #448 alexknyc

An amendment with wording like "Nothing in this Constitution shall be construed to support legalized abortion" wouldn't require anything else.

It would also throw our entire legal system into disarray, in areas not at all related to abortion. Dropping a bomb like that would have far reaching implications, not least of which is the implied state control over all medical matters.

452 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:50:35pm

re: #440 EmmmieG

I've met people in Utah who were "LDS" who had never attended church and hadn't the faintest idea what the teachings were, so, no, they are not the same.

I would add for all of the whining about separation of Church and State I heard while a student in Utah their politicians were much more likely to bend over backwards to accomodate and include non-majority groups than I've ever seen in the Souteast or Midwest.

Its almost a hypersensitivity to being seen as having too much influence. SLCs mayor for years was a vocal anti-Mormon.

453 ErikJ76  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:50:46pm

re: #418 Fozzie Bear

Look, it is absolutely clear that the GOP, on both the national and state levels, is strongly opposed to the continuing legality of abortion. That has been proven a dozen times now in this thread alone.

What remains is speculation as to whether they have the power to do so. There is a strong case to be made that the GOP is only *ONE* SCOTUS vote away from overturning Roe V. Wade, which would in turn open the way for a constitutional amendment.

The first paragraph represents absolute fact, the second, strongly supported but less so than the first. This is where we are regarding abortion, as a nation.

The GOP is absolutely opposed to the legality of abortion, as a platform issue.

Guess it's time for someone to move the goal post...

454 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:50:47pm

re: #446 Fozzie Bear

It's sad that you chose to ignore an entire thread, until a post came along and personalized it for you.

No, I did not ignore the entire thread.

Not at all. I was attacked for my moral and political beliefs- as if no disagreement will be tolerated.

And then some wanted to make it personal.

455 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:51:34pm

BBL bus - im not dropping comments and ignoring you!

456 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:52:05pm

re: #449 cliffster

Hehe, a constitutional amendment would be struck down? As what, unconstitutional??

Not exactly. It would be ignored or interpreted away, as it would directly contradict large parts of the constitution. You can't have a constitution that says "all people must have orange cats", and then tack on an amendment which says "orange cats are forbidden". One or the other would have to give.

457 alexknyc  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:52:25pm

re: #451 Fozzie Bear

It would also throw our entire legal system into disarray, in areas not at all related to abortion. Dropping a bomb like that would have far reaching implications, not least of which is the implied state control over all medical matters.

That may or may not be the case-- the law of unintended consequences always applies.

But it would definitively settle the legal status.

458 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:52:41pm

BBL, TCTP*, GOC*.

*Too cranky to post

*getting over a cold

459 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:53:24pm

re: #457 alexknyc

That may or may not be the case-- the law of unintended consequences always applies.

But it would definitively settle the legal status.

No, it wouldn't, unless they removed or amended large swaths of the constitution. You can't just tack on a direct contradiction. You would have to rewrite the whole fucking thing. That's my point.

460 alexknyc  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:53:31pm

re: #456 Fozzie Bear

Not exactly. It would be ignored or interpreted away, as it would directly contradict large parts of the constitution. You can't have a constitution that says "all people must have orange cats", and then tack on an amendment which says "orange cats are forbidden". One or the other would have to give.

The amendment would supersede the original statement.

461 allegro  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:53:57pm

re: #454 researchok

Not at all. I was attacked for my moral and political beliefs- as if no disagreement will be tolerated.

Translated: My arguments were entirely eviscerated repeatedly which means I was ATTACKED.

Please. Call the Whaabulance.

462 alexknyc  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:54:41pm

re: #459 Fozzie Bear

No, it wouldn't, unless they removed or amended large swaths of the constitution. You can't just tack on a direct contradiction. You would have to rewrite the whole fucking thing. That's my point.

That's incorrect.

There have been several amendments that have trumped the original constitution.

Are blacks still counted as 3/5 of a person?

463 Buck  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:54:48pm

re: #449 cliffster

Hehe, a constitutional amendment would be struck down? As what, unconstitutional??

I wonder if anyone would like to list everything that would have to take place in order to have a constitutional amendment? I mean if anyone could line up all of those ducks, then they would have earned it. Line up the congress, the President, the Senate and the States....for a constitutional amendment? It would be a big 'fu**ing' deal (to quote the VP).

However the system is really stacked against that possibility. In the same way that people should NOT worry about slavery coming back through a constitutional amendment.

464 alexknyc  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:55:57pm

re: #463 Buck

I wonder if anyone would like to list everything that would have to take place in order to have a constitutional amendment? I mean if anyone could line up all of those ducks, then they would have earned it. Line up the congress, the President, the Senate and the States...for a constitutional amendment? It would be a big 'fu**ing' deal (to quote the VP).

However the system is really stacked against that possibility. In the same way that people should NOT worry about slavery coming back through a constitutional amendment.

I can't speak for anyone else but I've never argued it was likely.

Just an intellectual exercise.

465 garhighway  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:56:01pm

re: #443 Fozzie Bear

Not directly. They would have to also explicitly deny any right to a woman's control over her own body, which would require editing out large swaths of the constitution. An easier path would be to overturn RvW, then they wouldn't have to mess with all the bits of the constitution upon which RvW is based.

There are two paths constitutionally, and one of them is a whole lot messier and unlikely than the other.

Obviously, a constitutional amendment is not going to happen. That hurdle is just too high. I agree that we are one vote away on Roe.

I wish Roe were a more intrinsically persuasive case. While I agree with the outcome, I thought the ruling was a stretch at the time and I still think it is.

466 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:56:06pm

re: #460 alexknyc

The amendment would supersede the original statement.

I don't think the republic would be able to weather that, frankly, as the original statement would be the right to self determination as parts of the constitution have been interpreted to mean.

It would supersede the whole thing, and that would result in revolution. If you think i'm kidding, read Roe V Wade some time, and look at all the various places from which it dreives its justification within the constitution. This is fundamental stuff. It would be national suicide.

467 celticdragon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:57:05pm

re: #426 DaddyG

I would be interested in finding out if these pols were Mormon (in which case they don't know their own doctrines concerning contraception) and which were Evangelical, Catholic or other.

I'd be very interested in any source for a Utah politician who wants to outlaw contraception. I think that is overstated.

I may be wrong on that, so I will concede the contraception part. Chris"Black Baby" Buttars is the usual suspect for really idiotic legislation in Utah.

Here is one of usual servings.

You also have the infamous"Miscarriage law" this past year which can lead to criminal charges against women who have had a miscarriage...depending on how effed up the prosecutor wants to be.

468 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:57:28pm

re: #462 alexknyc

That's incorrect.

There have been several amendments that have trumped the original constitution.

Are blacks still counted as 3/5 of a person?

Yes, but it also required re-interpreting a crapload of case law, for the better, in my opinion.

This would mean that the government would have a right to revoke self determination in many areas. It would mean very, very bad things.

469 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:58:06pm

Ok., i'm really going to eat now, or i will surely die.

470 alexknyc  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:58:08pm

re: #466 Fozzie Bear

I don't think the republic would be able to weather that, frankly, as the original statement would be the right to self determination as parts of the constitution have been interpreted to mean.

It would supersede the whole thing, and that would result in revolution. If you think i'm kidding, read Roe V Wade some time, and look at all the various places from which it dreives its justification within the constitution. This is fundamental stuff. It would be national suicide.

I think it would be a disaster.

But I'm talking about process.

471 celticdragon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:58:11pm

re: #440 EmmmieG

I've met people in Utah who were "LDS" who had never attended church and hadn't the faintest idea what the teachings were, so, no, they are not the same.

I didn't really think so. I was poking just a bit.

472 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:58:45pm

re: #467 celticdragon

I may be wrong on that, so I will concede the contraception part. Chris"Black Baby" Buttars is the usual suspect for really idiotic legislation in Utah.

Here is one of usual servings.

You also have the infamous"Miscarriage law" this past year which can lead to criminal charges against women who have had a miscarriage...depending on how effed up the prosecutor wants to be.

How do people like that get to be in positions of power?
The mind boggles.

473 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 2:59:05pm

re: #461 allegro

Translated: My arguments were entirely eviscerated repeatedly which means I was ATTACKED.

Please. Call the Whaabulance.

Please show me where my arguments were eviscerated. If they were, I'll admit to that.

In fact, since my LGF journey began, my positions have moderated greatly over time.

So, please show me where my positions were 'eviscerated'.

474 alexknyc  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:00:42pm

re: #468 Fozzie Bear

Yes, but it also required re-interpreting a crapload of case law, for the better, in my opinion.

This would mean that the government would have a right to revoke self determination in many areas. It would mean very, very bad things.

No it didn't. It required an Amendment.

Just as the 12th Amendment superseded part of Article II.

I agree it would be a disaster but the process isn't what you think it is.

475 garhighway  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:01:25pm

More seriously, we are seeing wedge politics back in full force.

My theory of GOP politics has been that it is like trying to feed a dog a pill: you put the pill in peanut butter and the dog eats it. For the GOP, the dog is the socon voter and the pill is the GOP's economic policies. The only way they get those voters, who should be outraged at things like the tax cuts for the top 1% and the repeal of the federal Estate Tax to swallow those policies is to distract them with wedge issues like gay marriage and abortion. Or Mosques. Or birth certificates.

The money that makes the GOP go doesn't give two shits and a damn about gay marriage or abortion. It cares about tax policy.

476 simoom  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:01:39pm

re: #20 webevintage

OT:
Tea Party Float Depicts Obama Whipping A White ‘Future Tax Payer’ Pulling A Wagon
[Link: thinkprogress.org...]
Stay classy Tea Party...

Disturbing video. Particularly the all-white cart-full of senior citizens who seem to be so insular in their experiences that they're completely oblivious to how offensive they're being.

477 garhighway  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:02:57pm

re: #474 alexknyc

No it didn't. It required an Amendment.

Just as the 12th Amendment superseded part of Article II.

I agree it would be a disaster but the process isn't what you think it is.

Fozzie, I love you, but Alex is right.

The constitution trumps all.

478 celticdragon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:04:01pm

re: #472 b_sharp

How do people like that get to be in positions of power?
The mind boggles.

Check out Senator Buttars and his boy's gulag.

Read the individual stories when you are calm and not near firearms...since you may be moved to homicidal violence by what this guy has done. I still can't believe that this is legal in America.

479 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:04:42pm

re: #477 garhighway

Fozzie, I love you, but Alex is right.

The constitution trumps all.

I'm not so sure. I have a rather robust constitution, but I doubt it would trump a bullet hole in my head.

480 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:08:18pm

re: #478 celticdragon

Check out Senator Buttars and his boy's gulag.

Read the individual stories when you are calm and not near firearms...since you may be moved to homicidal violence by what this guy has done. I still can't believe that this is legal in America.

Some people believe they know whats best for everybody and are more than willing, in fact eager, to make everybody suffer to prove it.

481 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:12:20pm

re: #478 celticdragon

A friend of mine was put in the female version of that place by her mother, the kidnapping and all. Fortunately her father found out and came to get her. The Assemblies of God run a similar program called "Teen Challenge" I believe and what makes that one worse is they have gotten states to go along with sending kids to these places as "alternative sentencing".

482 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:13:51pm

re: #481 Dreggas

A friend of mine was put in the female version of that place by her mother, the kidnapping and all. Fortunately her father found out and came to get her. The Assemblies of God run a similar program called "Teen Challenge" I believe and what makes that one worse is they have gotten states to go along with sending kids to these places as "alternative sentencing".

I guess they have to do something since stoning kids is illegal, and public flogging is frowned upon.

483 allegro  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:14:26pm

re: #481 Dreggas

Sometimes I think the evil that is still perpetrated on children who have no legal control in this country is no better than the world of Dickens at times.

484 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:14:29pm

I'm watching "Ghost Adventures".

I can feel myself getting stupider by the moment.

485 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:15:50pm

re: #484 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm watching "Ghost Adventures".

I can feel myself getting stupider by the moment.

What's that?

486 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:19:00pm

re: #485 b_sharp

A ghost-hunters television show for the uber-bored and/or uber-stupid.

487 celticdragon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:19:38pm

re: #481 Dreggas

A friend of mine was put in the female version of that place by her mother, the kidnapping and all. Fortunately her father found out and came to get her. The Assemblies of God run a similar program called "Teen Challenge" I believe and what makes that one worse is they have gotten states to go along with sending kids to these places as "alternative sentencing".

Yep. Thank God your friend was rescued. One of the best books I have read on the subject is called Jesus Land by Julia Scheeres. She was sent to a similar "tough love" Christian boot camp in the Dominican Republic(!) by an Indiana court order.

488 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:21:30pm

re: #486 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

A ghost-hunters television show for the uber-bored and/or uber-stupid.


Hunting ghosts eh? What do they do with them once they've caught them, cook them in an empty pot?

That must be one hell of an unsatisfying meal.

489 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:22:23pm

re: #484 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

yeah ghost adventures is not one of the better paranormal investigation shows

490 Amory Blaine  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:24:18pm

Meet the new GOP. The same as the old GOP.

491 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:24:25pm

re: #488 b_sharp

I had a boss (he's dead now) told me of going to an Ethiopian Restaurant.

I made the same type of joke. Wasn't as funny as yours tho...

492 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:24:32pm

You know, that Bad Ideas T-Shirt babe is really a babe.

493 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:25:26pm
494 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:25:44pm

re: #491 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I had a boss (he's dead now) told me of going to an Ethiopian Restaurant.

I made the same type of joke. Wasn't as funny as yours tho...

Are you saying your joke was on the thin side?

495 webevintage  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:30:18pm

re: #484 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm watching "Ghost Adventures".

I can feel myself getting stupider by the moment.

OMG!
So stupid they are hilarious.
Jole McCahle (The Soup) calls the "lead" guy "scobydouche".

496 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:31:07pm

re: #494 b_sharp

Well... he was 5'8" 360lbs... Every time I remember him talking about it... I think about the South Park Episode, Sallie Struthers and Eric Cartman and Cheezy Poofs.

497 Kruk  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:31:15pm

re: #114 WindUpBird

If you want to know how Oklahoma is doing, the answer is not well:

ANTI-CHOICE LAWS
Abortion Bans

Oklahoma has unconstitutional and unenforceable criminal bans on abortion.
Details »
Biased Counseling & Mandatory Delay

Oklahoma law subjects women seeking abortion services to biased-counseling requirements and mandatory delays.
Details »
Counseling Ban/Gag Rule

Oklahoma prohibits certain state employees and organizations receiving state funds from counseling or referring women for abortion services.
Details »
Insurance Prohibition for Abortion

Oklahoma restricts insurance coverage of abortion.
Details »
Public Facilities and Employees Restriction

Oklahoma prohibits the use of all public facilities and public employees for abortion services.
Details »
Refusal to Provide Medical Services

Oklahoma allows certain individuals or entities to refuse to provide women specific reproductive-health services, information, or referrals.
Details »
Restrictions on Low-Income Women's Access to Abortion

Oklahoma restricts low-income women's access to abortion.
Details »
Restrictions on Young Women's Access to Abortion

Oklahoma law restricts young women's access to abortion services by mandating parental notice and consent.
Details »
Targeted Regulation of Abortion Providers (TRAP)

Oklahoma prohibits certain qualified health-care professionals from providing abortion care, and has an unconstitutional and unenforceable law that subjects abortion providers to burdensome restrictions not applied to other medical professionals.
Details »

You forgot one:

Oklahoma: Director of an abortion clinic (which had been bombed before) who reported a suspicious package as a "bomb" is charged with providing false or misleading information.

Under ordinary circumstances, I would simply think that was a bit heavy handed. The slew of laws Oklahoma has passed to harasss women needing abortions and those who provide them gives the situation a much more ominous context.

498 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:31:46pm

re: #495 webevintage

Really lolling right now.

499 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:31:47pm

re: #495 webevintage

yeah watching them is like watching Bill And Ted's excellent Ghost Adventures.

500 fizzlogic  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:32:49pm

re: #23 researchok

As I noted, if the GOP were truly going to do away with abortion, we'd have seen it at the local level for decades.

I understand the need to keep abortion a hot button issue- it keeps the troops fired up- on both sides.

This from an article written by Eleanor Clift on the sudden death of my former Republican and "pro-life" congresswomen, Tillie Fowler:

Fowler was one of only a few Republican women active in the Congressional women’s caucus, and she tried (unsuccessfully) to get her party to moderate its position on abortion. “Enough is enough,” she counseled when the GOP scheduled more than a hundred votes to restrict reproductive rights in the Congress led by Speaker Newt Gingrich.

If the GOP can't make abortion illegal they'll force women to jump through as many hoops they can legislate to make it as near impossible to have one. It's all they really care about.

501 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:33:10pm

re: #493 Dreggas

They really seem to want a race war, don't they?

502 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:33:25pm

re: #500 trendsurfer

This from an article written by Eleanor Clift on the sudden death of my former Republican and "pro-life" congresswomen, Tillie Fowler:

If the GOP can't make abortion illegal they'll force women to jump through as many hoops they can legislate to make it as near impossible to have one. It's all they really care about.

yup

503 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:34:12pm

re: #478 celticdragon

Check out Senator Buttars and his boy's gulag.

Read the individual stories when you are calm and not near firearms...since you may be moved to homicidal violence by what this guy has done. I still can't believe that this is legal in America.

America can be a really shitty place for a lot of people

504 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:34:47pm

re: #501 WindUpBird

Of course, they've been itching for one for years.

505 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:34:57pm

During his interview Dick Armey vowed to continue distracting the easily gullible with a fight against abortion.

"Sure the Supreme Court has ruled on this and any legislation we managed to pass, which isn't very effing likely anyway, would be ruled unconstitutional. But who cares? The people who vote for us on this issue are barely literate morons. We have been promising them to overturn Roe vs. Wade for over thirty years and never done a single damn thing to even try to do anything at the national level, yet they still believe us!"

"I'm telling you, these people are dumber than a sack of hammers, that will never happen" he added, when questioned whether someday his supporters might wise up and realize that they are being used.

///ausador News Unfair and Extremely Biased! ;)

506 Jadespring  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:35:19pm

re: #495 webevintage

OMG!
So stupid they are hilarious.
Jole McCahle (The Soup) calls the "lead" guy "scobydouche".

I want to see it too! Alas the only ghost shows on right now are 'Ghostly Encounters, My Ghost Story and Ghost Whisperer.'

507 celticdragon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:35:47pm

re: #501 WindUpBird

They really seem to want a race war, don't they?

Yes. They do. They are not even bothering with dog whistles at this point. I never imagined in my most fevered nightmares that this shit would be going down in 2010 America.

Somewhere, Bull Conner is grinning.

508 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:36:20pm

re: #506 Jadespring

a good one to watch is "The Haunted" on animal planet. It's about families whose pets detect the hauntings before they do.

509 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:36:58pm

Ire: #507 celticdragon

Yes. They do. They are not even bothering with dog whistles at this point. I never imagined in my most fevered nightmares that this shit would be going down in 2010 America.

Somewhere, Bull Conner is grinning.

I am curious to see what the 2012 election will look like

I am predicting violence

510 Varek Raith  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:37:00pm

I'd be more than happy to say I'm a proud Canadian, which I'm not, at this point.
*_*

511 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:37:09pm

re: #401 Buck


Let me start this way. If you could get an old yellow pages from 2000, and compared the number of abortion clinics to a 2008 yellow pages, I would bet that you would see an INCREASE, and not a decrease. That might show that there is a greater access to abortion during the last republican administration.

You would lose that bet in a large number of places in the US. As has already been demonstrated in this thread.

Why you would make such a statement in total ignorance I have no idea.


In the same way, I would probably be able to show that there was a greater number of US same sex marriages in 2008 than in 1999.

However, this is not about restricting a womans right to choose. That decision has already been made. No President is going to be able change that. A President might be personally opposed to it, but he/she swears to uphold the constitution. It is clear fear mongering to say that the GOP or Armey plan to put an end to an adult woman's right to choose. It just isn't so.

However, on a completely different subject is government funding for abortions. Not federal funding for birth control, don't confuse them. Public funding for abortions, and in this case public funding for international abortions.

Public funding for organizations that, along with providing birth control, counsel women who need abortions to get them.


So, it is perfectly fair to ask the question does Armey, or the GOP support public funding for international abortions?

You know this talking point was destroyed in the first ten posts on the thread, right? "International abortions" is such a lame phrase, I have no idea who picked it as a winner.


However, to characterize this as support for a BAN on a womans right to choose is misleading at best, and probably fear mongering at it's core.

Good thing nobody did that, then.

Lying as usual, Buck. I don't think you even know you do it.

512 Jadespring  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:38:27pm

re: #508 Dreggas

a good one to watch is "The Haunted" on animal planet. It's about families whose pets detect the hauntings before they do.

Yeah I don't think I need to watch that one. :D I had my own experience with pets and creepy stuff that was very hard to find an explanation for. LOL

513 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:39:00pm

re: #511 Obdicut

I love it when they repeat discredited talking points in the SAME THREAD THEY WERE DISCREDITED

514 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:39:01pm

re: #511 Obdicut

I obviously slightly screwed up my quoting there; it's obvious what is mine and what is Buck's, though.

515 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:39:31pm

re: #512 Jadespring

yeah that one freaks my fiance out enough lol. She now wonders if the animals are flipping out cuz they are nuts or cuz something is there.

516 celticdragon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:40:22pm

re: #509 WindUpBird

I

I am curious to see what the 2012 election will look like

I am predicting violence

Sharron Angle surrogate Danny Tarkianian had a few things to say along those lines last week:

What's perhaps more interesting is his admission that many people in the Republican Party were encouraging him to advocate a civil insurrection if Congress doesn't change hands. "I had people that were upset at me in the campaign that I wouldn't go as far to agree that there should be a civil uprising," he said, adding that there were "people in the Republican Party that, when I was campaigning, wanted me to go that far to say that."

517 allegro  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:42:26pm

re: #508 Dreggas

a good one to watch is "The Haunted" on animal planet. It's about families whose pets detect the hauntings before they do.

I've never watched that - or heard of it even - but wow, kinda gives me goosebumps. For about 3 months after my husband died suddenly at home, our 4 dogs would look at the bedroom door, tails wagging, and kinda whimper happily and I would glimpse his unmistakable profile at the door for a few seconds. If I had seen it first I would have blown it off as purely wishful thinking imagination, or being asleep and dreaming it. But I didn't. It was almost always them alerting me.

Oh, I do not believe in ghosts. Mostly.

518 Varek Raith  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:43:51pm

The new GOP position;
If we don't take back the House, CIVIL WAR!

Ay,ay,ay!

519 Nervous Norvous  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:44:13pm

re: #512 Jadespring

Yeah I don't think I need to watch that one. :D I had my own experience with pets and creepy stuff that was very hard to find an explanation for. LOL

My wife loves the ghost shows. She makes me leave the room cuz I like to point out all the theatrical crap they pull for the sake of hyping the story rather than looking for a logical explanation.

520 alexknyc  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:44:56pm
521 Nervous Norvous  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:45:24pm

re: #518 Varek Raith

The new GOP position;
If we don't take back the House, CIVIL WAR!

Ay,ay,ay!

We're the biggest WATBs in the world! We want Congress back and if we don't get it we're going to hold our breath.

522 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:45:25pm

re: #517 allegro

I've never watched that - or heard of it even - but wow, kinda gives me goosebumps. For about 3 months after my husband died suddenly at home, our 4 dogs would look at the bedroom door, tails wagging, and kinda whimper happily and I would glimpse his unmistakable profile at the door for a few seconds. If I had seen it first I would have blown it off as purely wishful thinking imagination, or being asleep and dreaming it. But I didn't. It was almost always them alerting me.

Oh, I do not believe in ghosts. Mostly.

Memory, retention, visuals, nothing mysterious about it at all.

523 celticdragon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:45:30pm

re: #518 Varek Raith

The new GOP position;
If we don't take back the House, CIVIL WAR!

Ay,ay,ay!

What the bloody hell happened to my party.

Really. What the fuck.

524 Nervous Norvous  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:46:28pm

re: #523 celticdragon

What the bloody hell happened to my party.

Really. What the fuck.

They got in bed with people who were otherwise batshit insane in hopes of getting elected and found themselves knocked up with the socon baby and no way to get a divorce.

525 Jadespring  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:46:56pm

re: #519 PT Barnum

My wife loves the ghost shows. She makes me leave the room cuz I like to point out all the theatrical crap they pull for the sake of hyping the story rather than looking for a logical explanation.

I love them too but as you say most of them are just a lot of theatrics for the sake of the story they're telling or trying to tell. I appreciate the ones that at least play the theatrics well for the entertainment value.

526 celticdragon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:47:42pm

re: #524 PT Barnum

They got in bed with people who were otherwise batshit insane in hopes of getting elected and found themselves knocked up with the socon baby and no way to get a divorce.

Winner of the thread right there.

527 Nervous Norvous  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:48:08pm

re: #526 celticdragon

Winner of the thread right there.

Thank you, I'm here all week.

528 darthstar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:48:17pm

re: #524 PT Barnum

They got in bed with people who were otherwise batshit insane in hopes of getting elected and found themselves knocked up with the socon baby and no way to get a divorce.

And it looks like they're carrying this socon spawn to term.

529 webevintage  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:48:52pm

re: #506 Jadespring

I want to see it too! Alas the only ghost shows on right now are 'Ghostly Encounters, My Ghost Story and Ghost Whisperer.'

It's on the travel channel or if you have the netflix instant watch thingee you can see earlier seasons.
Yes, it has been on for SEASONS, more then one year.

I watch for the lols....

530 Kruk  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:49:02pm

re: #524 PT Barnum

They got in bed with people who were otherwise batshit insane in hopes of getting elected and found themselves knocked up with the socon baby and no way to get a divorce.

And no way of getting an abortion either. Thanks to themselves.

531 Nervous Norvous  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:49:24pm

re: #528 darthstar

And it looks like they're carrying this socon spawn to term.

too bad he's an extra Y chromosome.

532 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:49:59pm

re: #523 celticdragon

Funny they were always like this where I grew up and even wanted armed insurrection when Clinton was in office. Can't say I really am suprised by this.

533 Jadespring  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:50:18pm

re: #529 webevintage

It's on the travel channel or if you have the netflix instant watch thingee you can see earlier seasons.
Yes, it has been on for SEASONS, more then one year.

I watch for the lols...

Ah. I don't get the travel channel so that's why I can't find it on my search. No netflix either. Oh well. I'll survive. :D

534 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:51:58pm

re: #525 Jadespring

The best ones i watch are Ghost Hunters and Ghost Hunters International. Sure there is some theatrics but they are pretty serious about their investigations.

535 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:53:50pm

re: #533 Jadespring

And you'll be better off...

536 Nervous Norvous  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:54:40pm

re: #531 PT Barnum

too bad he's got an extra Y chromosome.

PIMF

537 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:55:07pm

re: #534 Dreggas

The best ones i watch are Ghost Hunters and Ghost Hunters International. Sure there is some theatrics but they are pretty serious about their investigations.

All bullshit... and people make fun of the anti-science right... yet suck right into this crap.

538 Nervous Norvous  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:55:14pm

re: #535 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

And you'll be better off...

I dunno, I like the travel channel for Bizarre Foods and Man Vs Food, but otherwise Meh!

539 celticdragon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:55:27pm

re: #532 Dreggas

Funny they were always like this where I grew up and even wanted armed insurrection when Clinton was in office. Can't say I really am suprised by this.

The fringies were not running the show and getting elected to the Senate in 1994.

Now, the barking moonbat socons and the no nothing tea baggers are the party and they are managing to capture Senate seats. Rush Limbaugh and Sarah Palin are arguably the party leaders...and the Republican Party has ALWAYS been a top down management enterprise...until now. The party leadership and the sane types have been run out or are utterly irrelevant (Michael Steele? Hello? Bueller?).

540 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:55:38pm

re: #534 Dreggas

The best ones i watch are Ghost Hunters and Ghost Hunters International. Sure there is some theatrics but they are pretty serious about their investigations.

I have only one ghost story when I was young..and it still freaks me out..But you guys go first...Any good ghost stories Lizards?

541 Nervous Norvous  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:55:49pm

re: #537 Walter L. Newton

All bullshit... and people make fun of the anti-science right... yet suck right into this crap.

Walter, we're in agreement on something, quick take offense at some innocuous thing I said. :)

542 Varek Raith  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:56:23pm

re: #540 HoosierHoops

I have only one ghost story when I was young..and it still freaks me out..But you guys go first...Any good ghost stories Lizards?

Yeah, I got one.
.
.
.
Ghosts aren't real.
OOGA BOOGA!!!

543 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:56:30pm

re: #541 PT Barnum

Walter, we're in agreement on something, quick take offense at some innocuous thing I said. :)

I can't stand emoticons :(

544 darthstar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:56:36pm

Small Business Bill got Cloture today! Johannes Amendment lost 52-46...(whew, that would have gutted the preventive health care funding)

White House Statement (via email)

“Today’s vote brings us one step closer to ending the months-long partisan blockade of a small business jobs bill that was written by both Democrats and Republicans. This is a bill that would cut taxes and help provide loans to millions of small business owners who create most of the new jobs in this country. It is fully paid for, it won’t add to the deficit, and small businesses across the country have been waiting for Washington to act on this bill for far too long. I am grateful to Senators Reid, Baucus and Landrieu for their leadership on this issue as well as the two Republican Senators who put partisanship aside and joined Democrats in overcoming this filibuster. I urge all members of the Senate to support final passage as soon as possible."
545 Nervous Norvous  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:57:32pm

re: #543 Walter L. Newton

I can't stand emoticons :(

Fair enough..time to double down and end this with a self portrait

8^{)]

546 celticdragon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:57:52pm

re: #537 Walter L. Newton

All bullshit... and people make fun of the anti-science right... yet suck right into this crap.

Even us serious science types have our guilty pleasures. I watch Ghost Hunters religiously. It's fun, and they do actually try to debunk claims.

547 darthstar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:58:13pm

re: #537 Walter L. Newton

All bullshit... and people make fun of the anti-science right... yet suck right into this crap.

I'm guessing a majority of people who watch Ghost Hunters also believe in god. It requires a level of gullibility and/or faith to believe in ghosts.

548 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:58:26pm

re: #546 celticdragon

Even us serious science types have our guilty pleasures. I watch Ghost Hunters religiously. It's fun, and they do actually try to debunk claims.

Dribble.

549 Nervous Norvous  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:58:26pm

re: #546 celticdragon

Even us serious science types have our guilty pleasures. I watch Ghost Hunters religiously. It's fun, and they do actually try to debunk claims.

AS long as you don't take it seriously and know it's bullshit, I don't see a problem.

550 celticdragon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:58:33pm

Math homework and dinner for the young 'un. BBL.

551 Kruk  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:59:41pm

re: #501 WindUpBird

They really seem to want a race war, don't they?

I just googled "Repeal The 14th Ammendment". You think the opponents simply object to the Birthright Citizenship clause? Think again:

[Link: www.google.co.nz...]

552 Nervous Norvous  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:59:47pm

re: #547 darthstar

I'm guessing a majority of people who watch Ghost Hunters also believe in god. It requires a level of gullibility and/or faith to believe in ghosts.

or a unhealthy lack of closure for someone close to you that has died. My wife lost an older sister 5 years before we met. She's still dealing with it.

553 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 3:59:59pm

re: #547 darthstar

I'm guessing a majority of people who watch Ghost Hunters also believe in god. It requires a level of gullibility and/or faith to believe in ghosts.

Ok... all the liberals, please stop agreeing with me. Let's make believe I never said anything... alright... back on our own sides of the aisles. Now!

554 celticdragon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:00:13pm

re: #548 Walter L. Newton

Dribble.

A nice porous sandstone is always there to catch those little mishaps.

555 Buck  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:00:36pm

re: #511 Obdicut

I will start at the bottom.

they’re going to fight hard to take away women’s rights to safe, legal abortions.

That is the #0

However, to characterize this as support for a BAN on a womans right to choose is misleading at best, and probably fear mongering at it's core.

That is my statement,

and this is yours.

Good thing nobody did that, then.

So maybe for me "a BAN on a womans right to choose" is the same as "take away women’s rights to safe, legal abortions".

Maybe it isn't for you. But a lie? You are right I don't think I am.

You would lose that bet in a large number of places in the US. As has already been demonstrated in this thread.

I don't see any demonstration that a Woman's access to safe, legal abortions has been taken away anywhere in the USA. Going back to the the above, I suspect we have a completely different understanding of what that means.

Public funding for organizations that, along with providing birth control, counsel women who need abortions to get them.

OK, that is the meat of the issue. There are a lot of people who are against abortion, and do not want public funding to be spent on it.

AND I am saying that this is NOT the same thing as ""take away women’s rights to safe, legal abortions".

Safe (as in done by a medical doctor) abortions for woman stays legal. Unsafe (what ever you imagine that to mean) abortions stay illegal.

Just not paid for by public funding.

-------------------------
as a disclaimer, I am actually a supporter of a womans right to choose, with regulation in place to limit third trimester abortions to emergencies (the life of the mother is in jeopardy).

556 Varek Raith  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:00:43pm

What's up with "ghosts" haunting abandoned or seldom visited structures???
Screw that, I'm haunting a strip club!
:P

557 Nervous Norvous  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:01:12pm

re: #553 Walter L. Newton

Ok... all the liberals, please stop agreeing with me. Let's make believe I never said anything... alright... back on our own sides of the aisles. Now!

I think that's a great idea, Walter. I am going right back to my side of the aisle just like you said. That way nobody will ever know that I ever agreed with you on anything.... Oh, wait....

558 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:01:16pm

re: #542 Varek Raith

Yeah, I got one.
.
.
.
Ghosts aren't real.
OOGA BOOGA!!!

I generally agree.. But I had something happen to me as a kid and I'm not so sure about Ghosts.. But one event does not prove anything..I think...I guess...Not I'm sure of it..Kindof
/

559 celticdragon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:01:26pm

re: #556 Varek Raith

What's up with "ghosts" haunting abandoned or seldom visited structures???
Screw that, I'm haunting a strip club!
:P

Perv!

;)

560 Varek Raith  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:02:40pm

re: #559 celticdragon

Perv!

;)

Image: captainobvious.jpg

561 Nervous Norvous  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:02:59pm

re: #556 Varek Raith

What's up with "ghosts" haunting abandoned or seldom visited structures???
Screw that, I'm haunting a strip club!
:P

Not as easy for people to scare themselves silly at every possible movement or sound if it's somewhere populated. Just like you never hear about UFOs appearing to more than one or two lone nuts as opposed to showing up at the Super Bowl, for instance.

562 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:03:24pm

So, I'm holed up in a hotel room, bronchitis... can't think of anything else to do... Ghost Adventures was on... so, what the hell...

It is monster ignerent.

563 Jadespring  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:03:29pm

re: #540 HoosierHoops

I have only one ghost story when I was young..and it still freaks me out..But you guys go first...Any good ghost stories Lizards?

I have a few. Cue the spooky music. Most do have explanations that could work except for one which to this day I haven't found any plausible explanation that would work. Wouldn't mean much except it wasn't just me that it happened too.

It involved a clock radio that would turn on...when it was unplugged.

564 cliffster  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:04:07pm

I don't believe in destiny, or the guiding hand of Fate
I don't believe in forever, or Love as a mystical state
I don't believe in the stars and the planets, or angels watching from above
but I believe there's a ghost of a chance, you can find someone to love
and make it last...

565 Nervous Norvous  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:04:15pm

re: #563 Jadespring

I have a few. Cue the spooky music. Most do have explanations that could work except for one which to this day I haven't found any plausible explanation that would work. Wouldn't mean much except it wasn't just me that it happened too.

It involved a clock radio that would turn on...when it was unplugged.

Would it run for any length of time? Could be nothing more than a capacitor that was discharging at odd times.

566 Varek Raith  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:04:23pm

re: #563 Jadespring

I have a few. Cue the spooky music. Most do have explanations that could work except for one which to this day I haven't found any plausible explanation that would work. Wouldn't mean much except it wasn't just me that it happened too.

It involved a clock radio that would turn on...when it was unplugged.

A glitch in the Matrix.
Next!
/

567 Jadespring  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:05:20pm

re: #566 Varek Raith

A glitch in the Matrix.
Next!
/

Okay that works. LOL

568 Nervous Norvous  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:05:57pm

re: #562 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

So, I'm holed up in a hotel room, bronchitis... can't think of anything else to do... Ghost Adventures was on... so, what the hell...

It is monster ignerent.

We had a local ghost hunters group do a presentation at Halloween at our local historical park. They did a demonstration of dowsing and talked about how they had heard noises in one of the buildings while they were there. I overheard someone say after the presentation "I didn't have the heart to tell them we've been having problems with raccoons getting in."

569 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:06:47pm

re: #556 Varek Raith

What's up with "ghosts" haunting abandoned or seldom visited structures???
Screw that, I'm haunting a strip club!
:P


If I'm a Ghost Megan Fox has big big problems...
/
//Yeah Megan..That's Barry White on in the Background and you should see how fast I can bounce this bed up and down...
*wink*

570 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:06:50pm

re: #568 PT Barnum

A BRONSON MOVIES ON! YAY! Gonna keel him some lowlifes!

571 darthstar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:07:20pm

re: #564 cliffster

I don't believe in destiny, or the guiding hand of Fate
I don't believe in forever, or Love as a mystical state
I don't believe in the stars and the planets, or angels watching from above
but I believe there's a ghost of a chance, you can find someone to love
and make it last...

Quoting the Human League, from memory (so forgive any inaccuracies):
I believe, I believe what the old man said,
though I know that there's no lord above.
I believe in you, I believe in me,
and you know I believe in love.
I believe in truth though I lie a lot
I feel the pain of every push and shove
No matter what you put me through
I'll still believe in love, and I say
I love your...love action
Love's just a ... distraction
No talking, just looking
watching your...love action...

572 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:08:02pm

re: #569 HoosierHoops

DUDE! SHE'S LIKE 14!

573 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:08:15pm

re: #562 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

So, I'm holed up in a hotel room, bronchitis... can't think of anything else to do... Ghost Adventures was on... so, what the hell...

It is monster ignerent.

I'll be in a hotel for 2 weeks starting this weekend...Hope today finds you well Veggie

574 darthstar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:09:16pm

re: #571 darthstar

Quoting the Human League, from memory (so forgive any inaccuracies):
I believe, I believe what the old man said,
though I know that there's no lord above.
I believe in you, I believe in me,
and you know I believe in love.
I believe in truth though I lie a lot
I feel the pain of every push and shove
No matter what you put me through
I'll still believe in love, and I say
I love your...love action
Love's just a ... distraction
No talking, just looking
watching your...love action...

575 engineer cat  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:09:49pm

wtf???

September 14, 2010
Democrats tout "major" announcement Wednesday

Washington (CNN) – Democratic National Committee Chairman Tim Kaine plans to make what's being billed as a major announcement Wednesday about the future of the party, according to a Democratic source with knowledge of the speech.

The source tells CNN that Kaine will announce something that will excite Democrats across the country. Kaine's event comes as Democrats face the difficult task of holding onto their majorities in the House and Senate this November.

576 Nervous Norvous  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:10:38pm

re: #572 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

DUDE! SHE'S LIKE 14!

You talking her age or her IQ?

577 Nervous Norvous  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:11:19pm

re: #575 engineer dog

wtf???

September 14, 2010
Democrats tout "major" announcement Wednesday

Washington (CNN) – Democratic National Committee Chairman Tim Kaine plans to make what's being billed as a major announcement Wednesday about the future of the party, according to a Democratic source with knowledge of the speech.

The source tells CNN that Kaine will announce something that will excite Democrats across the country. Kaine's event comes as Democrats face the difficult task of holding onto their majorities in the House and Senate this November.

Harry Reid is not going to run for Senate Majority Leader again.

578 Nervous Norvous  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:12:55pm

re: #572 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

DUDE! SHE'S LIKE 14!

FBV..how you doing? anyway...Doc got you on some good antibiotics?

I recommend regular doses of peppermint schnapps, hot showers and Vick's Vaborub. Always makes me feel better.

579 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:13:33pm

re: #578 PT Barnum

FBV..how you doing? anyway...Doc got you on some good antibiotics?

I recommend regular doses of peppermint schnapps, hot showers and Vick's Vaborub. Always makes me feel better.

You ever rub Vicks on your penis?

580 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:13:37pm

re: #578 PT Barnum

yeah but that's just the schnapps

581 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:14:45pm

re: #555 Buck

Exactly. You don't even realize you're lying.

There are far more ways to take away people's rights than banning the activity.

Blacks under Jim Crow could vote. Sure. They just had to pass ridiculous literacy tests.

You can still get an abortion in Oklahoma. You just have to have an ultrasound wand shoved up your vagina and the embryo described to you in detail in order to shame you and humiliate you.

That you can only see rights being taken away in the form of bans is a weird, weird blindness.

OK, that is the meat of the issue. There are a lot of people who are against abortion, and do not want public funding to be spent on it.

There are a lot of people against public funding of any issue. That doesn't fucking matter. That's not how government works.

Again: this talking point has already been dealt with. If you can actually create an argument for why abortion is different than anything else the government is involved in, do it.

582 Jadespring  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:15:13pm

re: #568 PT Barnum

We had a local ghost hunters group do a presentation at Halloween at our local historical park. They did a demonstration of dowsing and talked about how they had heard noises in one of the buildings while they were there. I overheard someone say after the presentation "I didn't have the heart to tell them we've been having problems with raccoons getting in."

In one I watched one of the things the family was experiencing was scratching sounds in the walls. This one had a couple of psychic ladies that came in and they were all 'ooo, ah,ooo, could be poltergeist or demonic' activity. It was funny.

583 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:15:23pm

re: #577 PT Barnum

Harry Reid is not going to run for Senate Majority Leader again.

Oh god how I wish.

What I fear is: They'll run to the right.

584 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:15:38pm

re: #513 WindUpBird

I love it when they repeat discredited talking points in the SAME THREAD THEY WERE DISCREDITED

Really? Where did that happen?

585 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:16:37pm

re: #583 Obdicut

Ditto. School Uniforms here we come.

586 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:17:56pm

re: #563 Jadespring

I have a few. Cue the spooky music. Most do have explanations that could work except for one which to this day I haven't found any plausible explanation that would work. Wouldn't mean much except it wasn't just me that it happened too.

It involved a clock radio that would turn on...when it was unplugged.

When I was 16 I had a friend and she committed suicide..I was heartbroken..
One night ( it was probably just a dream) But in the middle of the night she tapped me on the arm and awoke me..I swear ( To God) I was awake and we started talking.. She said I need to talk to you about life..Things we never talked about...I said ok..And she told me to come talk into the corner of the room and bring my pillow.. And there we sat and talked..
The next morning I woke up completely shaken to the core...And I looked across the room in the corner and there was my pillow sitting there where we talked all night...
I know I was probably sleep walking..But it freaked me out..But quite franking I'm glad more ghosts don't wake me up in the middle of the night..It would get old fast.. The Whoppie Goldberg effect

587 Nervous Norvous  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:19:48pm

re: #579 Walter L. Newton

You ever rub Vicks on your penis?

No...Do tell...although I'm hoping this isn't your next question:

588 darthstar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:20:43pm

re: #585 Dreggas

Ditto. School Uniforms here we come.

I'm all for school uniforms (and I'm not exactly a conservative). School uniforms take away some of the distractions of kids coming from families with vast differences in income. Everyone looks the same.

589 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:22:44pm

re: #584 researchok

Really? Where did that happen?

What do you think hasn't been discredited?

Abortion rights really have been, and are, restricted.

There really are constant attacks on abortion rights at local and state levels.

There really are large amounts of the US where it is extremely onerous to get an abortion if you do not have money, access to a car, etc.

There really is no merit to the argument that since some people have moral objections to abortion the government should never fund it; there are moral objections to almost anything done by the government.

590 kirkspencer  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:24:12pm

re: #555 Buck

Oddly, when I read that I thought of Anatole France's famous line.

The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.
591 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:24:35pm

re: #588 darthstar

Yeah, same here. I would have been saved the shame of my parents constantly buying me corduroys instead of jeans.

Of course, now corduroy is cool.

592 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:25:24pm

re: #588 darthstar

I'm all for school uniforms (and I'm not exactly a conservative). School uniforms take away some of the distractions of kids coming from families with vast differences in income. Everyone looks the same.

Like Catholic Schools? I hated that...
/really really hated that

593 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:27:27pm

re: #588 darthstar

I never had the trendiest clothes but would have HATED wearing a uniform.

594 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:28:01pm

re: #591 Obdicut

Yeah, same here. I would have been saved the shame of my parents constantly buying me corduroys instead of jeans.

Of course, now corduroy is cool.

who the heck thought you could have 4 basketball courts and kids would play ball in dress pants? I got in trouble for torn black dress pants everyday.. Idiots

595 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:28:30pm

re: #592 HoosierHoops

Like Catholic Schools? I hated that...
/really really hated that

It would be interesting to take a poll of who is in favor of uniforms, and who isn't, and then correlate that to what they wore in school.

I would be in favor of school uniforms with severely reinforced knees, because I have boys.

(Of course, I homeschool, so dressing up for school just means actually getting dressed.)

596 Nervous Norvous  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:28:39pm

I had a uniform. Jeans, a T-shirt and an old Army Jacket I bought surplus. It was a self imposed uniform, but a uniform nonetheless.

597 darthstar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:29:16pm

re: #592 HoosierHoops

Like Catholic Schools? I hated that...
/really really hated that

Yep, or like public schools in most other countries. Hell, when I was in Fiji (1980), our public school had uniforms (grey shirts and shorts/sulus for the boys, blue/pink/yellow dresses for the girls). The next school over had black shorts/sulus for the boys with white shirts, and black/white skirt/shirt combos for the girls. You could tell in a second where someone was from by their uniform. That also helped keep kids on better behavior as local business owners and police could go straight to the appropriate school and find the little fucker if a kid ever did anything inappropriate.

598 Jadespring  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:29:37pm

re: #586 HoosierHoops

When I was 16 I had a friend and she committed suicide..I was heartbroken..
One night ( it was probably just a dream) But in the middle of the night she tapped me on the arm and awoke me..I swear ( To God) I was awake and we started talking.. She said I need to talk to you about life..Things we never talked about...I said ok..And she told me to come talk into the corner of the room and bring my pillow.. And there we sat and talked..
The next morning I woke up completely shaken to the core...And I looked across the room in the corner and there was my pillow sitting there where we talked all night...
I know I was probably sleep walking..But it freaked me out..But quite franking I'm glad more ghosts don't wake me up in the middle of the night..It would get old fast.. The Whoppie Goldberg effect

Stuff like that is freaky.

Do you remember the talk? Dream or not did the talk help with your grief with her dying? Personally I've come to the conclusion that when things like that happen does it even matter if it's 'real' in terms of an actual ghost that can be measured vs 'real' in terms of it being an experience that means something to the person. If someone is convinced that they were visited by someone that has died and it helps them then debating the reality of whether it happened due to an outside force or some sort of inner created force misses the essence of it.

The ones that get me to at least go 'hmmm' though are when people have 'dreams' or 'visits' from people who have died, before they know they've died. Spirits or something else those are funky and hard to explain with a 'it's your grieving mind creating a scenario to help cope with it,' explanations.

599 Nervous Norvous  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:29:47pm

re: #597 darthstar

Yep, or like public schools in most other countries. Hell, when I was in Fiji (1980), our public school had uniforms (grey shirts and shorts/sulus for the boys, blue/pink/yellow dresses for the girls). The next school over had black shorts/sulus for the boys with white shirts, and black/white skirt/shirt combos for the girls. You could tell in a second where someone was from by their uniform. That also helped keep kids on better behavior as local business owners and police could go straight to the appropriate school and find the little fucker if a kid ever did anything inappropriate.

Sulus? Any Checkovs?

600 Nervous Norvous  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:31:24pm

re: #598 Jadespring

The ones that get me to at least go 'hmmm' though are when people have 'dreams' or 'visits' from people who have died, before they know they've died. Spirits or something else those are funky and hard to explain with a 'it's your grieving mind creating a scenario to help cope with it,' explanations.

Often the timing is not remembered quite right. I've seen several articles which explained how our memories don't work very well in recording objective reality when it fails to make a good narrative.

601 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:32:38pm

This just angers me so. WHO do these politicians think they are?
I have 3 teenaged nieces, who KNOW that Aunt Floral is available for help, on ANY issue, 24/7. It's your body & your choice. Stupid decisions sometimes have consequences. Sometimes kids need a helping hand. NOT a politician making the choice for them.
Rant off.

602 Jadespring  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:33:12pm

re: #600 PT Barnum

Often the timing is not remembered quite right. I've seen several articles which explained how our memories don't work very well in recording objective reality when it fails to make a good narrative.

Yeah that's possible, except the one where the person tells people about it or gets upset about it after it happens and then it's later confirmed that yes indeed the person died.

603 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:33:27pm

wonder when Pams and the rest of the haters will start defending this guy. Oh wait, he's gay.

604 darthstar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:33:34pm

My second grade class (I'm between the two brownies (Joanie and Melissa) on the back row...yeah, I had fantasies at that age too...major crush on Joanie that lasted through the 8th grade). And yes, the kid front left is gay...we knew it then.

605 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:34:48pm

re: #598 Jadespring

There aren't any actual verified cases of that occurring. Also, selective memory is in play; I have worry-thoughts about the people I care about every day. If someone I was close to died tomorrow, I'd have had a 'vision' of them coming to harm. Doesn't mean a thing.

THis is a great book on scientific research into the afterlife.


Spook, by Mary Roach

Unsurprisingly, nobody has discovered a shred of a hint of evidence. But a lot of things have been debunked and explained.

606 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:35:10pm

re: #589 Obdicut

What do you think hasn't been discredited?

Abortion rights really have been, and are, restricted.

There really are constant attacks on abortion rights at local and state levels.

There really are large amounts of the US where it is extremely onerous to get an abortion if you do not have money, access to a car, etc.

There really is no merit to the argument that since some people have moral objections to abortion the government should never fund it; there are moral objections to almost anything done by the government.

I have never said abortion rights have not been restricted. I concede they have and abortion will be an agenda for many for a long time.

I also said that virtually always, when the cases are appealed the courts almost always universally restore the right to a woman's right to choose.

I approve of that and support judges that espouse that position. That position is non negotiable for me.

I also happen to espouse the same position as the liberal American Prospect- that "Abortion is a right that ends in sorrow. Democratic rhetoric in the future must acknowledge this fact."

They also note that fully one third of pro choice Americans voted for Bush. To say that all conservatives are against abortion (or are bigots) is absurd.

Like you, I want abortions to be legal, safe and less frequent. I do not want to see women have trouble accessing abortions if they choose teh procedure.

What I do resent is the idea that abortion is a procedure that has no consequences beyond the moment. There is enough evidence that abortion does have long term consequences and there has been much written by women (some liberal- gasp!) that attest to that.

In your work, I'm sure you ran across women who were conflicted by the choice they had to make. I*'m also sure you were not cavalier- I don't know you well, but I know that much about you. You don't run roughshod, no matter your convictions.

When Hillary Clinton said abortions should be rare, she was booed.

That is the attitude I resent.

607 kirkspencer  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:35:53pm

re: #588 darthstar

I'm all for school uniforms (and I'm not exactly a conservative). School uniforms take away some of the distractions of kids coming from families with vast differences in income. Everyone looks the same.

I'm not. School uniforms just change the problem.

I'm going to have to dig out the the two studies I'm about to summarize as I've been out of the argument for a bit. They were, however, a couple that showed going to uniforms reduces disciplinary problems. (Not all do so, so that's worth noting.) What these two showed, however, was that while it reduced the bottom end problems, it also reduced the top end gains. The uniforms apparently stifled the creativity that is inherent in so many high grade achievers.

Uniforms are an easy solution to a complex problem. Mencken's law applies.

608 jamesfirecat  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:35:58pm

The right needs to stop wasting the countries money by bringing up these court cases they always loose.

609 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:36:02pm

re: #591 Obdicut

Yeah, same here. I would have been saved the shame of my parents constantly buying me corduroys instead of jeans.

Of course, now corduroy is cool.

We may be related.

My parents did the same thing to me.

610 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:37:04pm

re: #595 EmmmieG

It would be interesting to take a poll of who is in favor of uniforms, and who isn't, and then correlate that to what they wore in school.

I would be in favor of school uniforms with severely reinforced knees, because I have boys.

(Of course, I homeschool, so dressing up for school just means actually getting dressed.)

I didn't like the uniformity of Catholic school rules..And dressing up like a Wall Street tycoon to attend class ( This ain't Harvard folks.. And you know..I'm a kid )
My Pops is such a strict Catholic and so old school he makes Mel Gibson look like a backsliden Baptist ..I mean Hard core

611 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:37:23pm

re: #606 researchok

Sex education has come a long way in the last 30 years.
And, that's a GOOD thing!

612 JamesWI  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:37:36pm

More idiotic pandering to the brainless base. Armey obviously knows that Congress isn't going to be able to do anything about abortions in the United States. So he starts talking about "fighting abortion" by going after funding for foreign reproductive health care. In the ears of his base, all they hear is "ABORTION BAD!!!!"

At this point, even with all the crazies, the GOP and Tea Party (or at least the leaders of the parties) know that they aren't going to really do anything about abortion (at least, nothing that would actually stand up to a court challenge, even with a conservative Supreme Court). At this point, it's just another issue to use to rile up the base and exploit them.

613 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:38:24pm

re: #610 HoosierHoops

LOL! But, it looked GOOD on you!
*waves*

614 reine.de.tout  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:39:11pm

re: #588 darthstar

I'm all for school uniforms (and I'm not exactly a conservative). School uniforms take away some of the distractions of kids coming from families with vast differences in income. Everyone looks the same.

Absolutely.
My daughter went to school with a lot of very wealthy kids. She missed out on that whole "I don't look as good as anyone else!" phase.
By the time we got her a car (what we could afford, a Scion), it didn't matter to her that some of the kids had BMW's.

615 Henchman Ghazi-808  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:39:15pm

Is Dick wearing an AstroTurf Toupee?

616 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:39:19pm

re: #606 researchok

I have never said abortion rights have not been restricted. I concede they have and abortion will be an agenda for many for a long time.

And restriction of abortion rights means that some women don't get abortions. It has real-world effects. A woman who, without the restriction, would have had access to abortion, did not.

What I do resent is the idea that abortion is a procedure that has no consequences beyond the moment. There is enough evidence that abortion does have long term consequences and there has been much written by women (some liberal- gasp!) that attest to that.

Nobody has contested that in the least, at all, in any way, in any fashion, in this thread. You resent something that hasn't been said.


To say that all conservatives are against abortion (or are bigots) is absurd.

Nobody said that all conservatives are against abortions, either. I have no idea why you'd protest against something that hasn't been said.

However, your claim that most members of the GOP share Frum's pro-choice position is factually untrue-- unless you are accusing the GOP itself, and those 70% of members who are pro-life (and NOT pro-choice, in a dichotomous choice) are lying or misrepresenting their views.

617 jamesfirecat  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:39:51pm

re: #606 researchok

I have never said abortion rights have not been restricted. I concede they have and abortion will be an agenda for many for a long time.

I also said that virtually always, when the cases are appealed the courts almost always universally restore the right to a woman's right to choose.

I approve of that and support judges that espouse that position. That position is non negotiable for me.

I also happen to espouse the same position as the liberal American Prospect- that "Abortion is a right that ends in sorrow. Democratic rhetoric in the future must acknowledge this fact."

They also note that fully one third of pro choice Americans voted for Bush. To say that all conservatives are against abortion (or are bigots) is absurd.

Like you, I want abortions to be legal, safe and less frequent. I do not want to see women have trouble accessing abortions if they choose teh procedure.

What I do resent is the idea that abortion is a procedure that has no consequences beyond the moment. There is enough evidence that abortion does have long term consequences and there has been much written by women (some liberal- gasp!) that attest to that.

In your work, I'm sure you ran across women who were conflicted by the choice they had to make. I*'m also sure you were not cavalier- I don't know you well, but I know that much about you. You don't run roughshod, no matter your convictions.

When Hillary Clinton said abortions should be rare, she was booed.

That is the attitude I resent.

Here's the problem.

Is Abortion Rare now?

If it isn't, then we're either going to have to either restrict the supply or the demand for abortion...

How do we go about that?

618 darthstar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:40:14pm

re: #614 reine.de.tout

Absolutely.
My daughter went to school with a lot of very wealthy kids. She missed out on that whole "I don't look as good as anyone else!" phase.
By the time we got her a car (what we could afford, a Scion), it didn't matter to her that some of the kids had BMW's.

Yep...and I'm sure her wearing a uniform didn't affect her creativity or intelligence, either.

619 engineer cat  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:40:27pm

re: #588 darthstar

I'm all for school uniforms (and I'm not exactly a conservative). School uniforms take away some of the distractions of kids coming from families with vast differences in income. Everyone looks the same.

only if the uniforms are mandated to all be exactly the same from the same manufacturer. we had uniforms, but since they were merely required to be any old blue blazers and grey flannel pants, there were still wide variations in how this worked out in practice.

620 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:40:33pm

re: #611 Floral Giraffe

Sex education has come a long way in the last 30 years.
And, that's a GOOD thing!

Not far enough, as far as I am concerned.

I'm conservative enough to believe giving kids access to condoms and pills in schools is a good idea.

Kids having sex is a big problem, but nowhere near as big as kids getting pregnant or a 13 year old having an abortion.

And no one is talking about parents in the equation. That needs to be addressed as well.

621 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:41:56pm

re: #619 engineer dog

Yeah. It really doesn't fix anything, but I like it for a number of reasons. It has to be done in a positive, "you're part of a community and we take you seriously and respect you" manner, not a "All right you little shits you can't wear anything cool because if we give you an inch you'll be fucking on the desks and doing lines of coke off each other's cocks" way.

622 darthstar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:43:19pm

re: #619 engineer dog

only if the uniforms are mandated to all be exactly the same from the same manufacturer. we had uniforms, but since they were merely required to be any old blue blazers and grey flannel pants, there were still wide variations in how this worked out in practice.

Most kids don't differentiate between someone wearing slacks from JC Penney and someone wearing slacks from Nordstrom. Pants are pants. In a group, they all look the same. And if it's a blazer from JC Penney or Nordstrom, it's still going to look similar enough that the kids aren't going to be comparing labels.

623 allegro  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:44:18pm

re: #606 researchok

I also happen to espouse the same position as the liberal American Prospect- that "Abortion is a right that ends in sorrow. Democratic rhetoric in the future must acknowledge this fact."

From my experience, both personal and with women of my acquaintance, the most common emotion is relief, tremendous relief.

They also note that fully one third of pro choice Americans voted for Bush. To say that all conservatives are against abortion (or are bigots) is absurd.

No one made such a claim. It was stated, accurately, that overturning abortion rights is a platform issue of the Republican party.

What I do resent is the idea that abortion is a procedure that has no consequences beyond the moment. There is enough evidence that abortion does have long term consequences and there has been much written by women (some liberal- gasp!) that attest to that.

Some women grieve for a time - it depends completely on their individual circumstances. I have never known one to make the decision lightly. It is an unpleasant procedure that no one does cuz it's just a really fun time.There are some women who are conflicted. Most make the decision because it's the wise and responsible choice to make. The story of long-term consequences with a majority of women experiencing horrid emotional problems as a result of an abortion is nonsense.

624 reine.de.tout  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:44:42pm

re: #618 darthstar

Yep...and I'm sure her wearing a uniform didn't affect her creativity or intelligence, either.

No, it did not. I just saw that comment.
We had stuff at home where she could be as creative as she wanted, and we didn't fill up ALL of her spare time with activities she didn't want to participate in. We had paper, crayons, construction paper, boxes, paper towel tubes, beads, ribbon, fabric (and a sewing machine), and actually, if she wanted a book, or if she wanted something that she could use in a creative way, I bought it, no questions asked.

She's in her first year of college now, tuition paid, plus 2 additional small scholarships that paid for books, and she's ranked #1 in her biology class and in her math class (after testing out already of the first freshmen-level classes in those subjects).

So no - her creativity and intelligence were not affected.

625 darthstar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:45:05pm

First results from New Hampshire...go Teabaggers!

Ovide Lamontagne 53.2
Kelly Ayotte 31.6
Others 14.9

626 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:45:08pm

re: #617 jamesfirecat

Education.
Women and girls who understand that THEY are the ones to bear the burden ( so to speak) of unprotected sex, need to know HOW to protect themselves. If they have sex with protection, the abortion issue is MUCH smaller. And that is good.

627 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:45:21pm

re: #622 darthstar

Well, my experience in England, where I went for a year, says that isn't true. People actually name-dropped the tailor they got their uniforms from. And shoes were a big deal.

You can still have the rich-poor competition, it just puts it in a different light. It really matters how it's presented.

One reason I like it is because it shows parents that clothes really do matter for acceptance.

628 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:46:17pm

re: #611 Floral Giraffe

Sex education has come a long way in the last 30 years.
And, that's a GOOD thing!

Kids need adults they can trust to talk about sex with.. To share the real world with...Hopefully it's mom or dad.. If not..They failed as parents..The school is just a throw back position to try to help

629 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:46:18pm

re: #624 reine.de.tout

Hey Reine, if she gets really into biology and is interested in lab work, shoot me an email and my wife can give her advice about how to best pursue that.

630 brookly red  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:47:04pm

I saw and interesting thing today... I went to vote & the polling place is in a local school (grades 1-6) and it seemed that half the kids had uniforms & the others not... it seemed odd to me but I have no opinion.

631 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:47:24pm

re: #606 researchok

I also happen to espouse the same position as the liberal American Prospect- that "Abortion is a right that ends in sorrow. Democratic rhetoric in the future must acknowledge this fact."

I think that's bullshit. Propaganda.

They also note that fully one third of pro choice Americans voted for Bush. To say that all conservatives are against abortion (or are bigots) is absurd.

I voted for Bush once, despite his anti-choice stand. I won't be doing that sort of thing again.

What I do resent is the idea that abortion is a procedure that has no consequences beyond the moment. There is enough evidence that abortion does have long term consequences and there has been much written by women (some liberal- gasp!) that attest to that.

Why "resent"? Do you mean you "disagree"? Or you object to someone who holds that view sincerely? Have you read anything by women who say there were no long term consequences?

632 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:47:46pm

re: #624 reine.de.tout

Not with a mother like you Reine...Lucky kid

633 darthstar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:48:07pm

re: #627 Obdicut

Well, my experience in England, where I went for a year, says that isn't true. People actually name-dropped the tailor they got their uniforms from. And shoes were a big deal.

You can still have the rich-poor competition, it just puts it in a different light. It really matters how it's presented.

One reason I like it is because it shows parents that clothes really do matter for acceptance.

Of course...you're going to have assholes in every situation. But in general terms, kids will feel like they are part of the group...

634 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:48:14pm

re: #596 PT Barnum

I had a uniform. Jeans, a T-shirt and an old Army Jacket I bought surplus. It was a self imposed uniform, but a uniform nonetheless.

"Everybody in this room is wearing a uniform, don't kid yourself."
-- Frank Zappa, to an audience member who was yelling his discontent about the presence of a uniformed security guard at the Royal Albert Hall, 1969.

635 reine.de.tout  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:49:07pm

re: #629 Obdicut

Hey Reine, if she gets really into biology and is interested in lab work, shoot me an email and my wife can give her advice about how to best pursue that.

She's searching, now, for what she's really interested in.
She's in the college of agriculture, thinking about doing something with maybe nutrition.

What she's REALLY interested in, actually, is the body (human or animal, doesn't matter) - the muscles, how they work, etc. That is the sort of stuff she talks about, when she talks to me. She thought about kiniseology (sp?), but she says there are tons of people in that field. If you have suggestions for where a biology degree might lead, what sort of jobs, etc., I would love to have them to pass on to her.

636 engineer cat  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:49:10pm

re: #621 Obdicut

Yeah. It really doesn't fix anything, but I like it for a number of reasons. It has to be done in a positive, "you're part of a community and we take you seriously and respect you" manner, not a "All right you little shits you can't wear anything cool because if we give you an inch you'll be fucking on the desks and doing lines of coke off each other's cocks" way.

we tended to end up in the second category. we were even told once that "if we gave you your way on the hair length issue, god knows what kind of more serious issues you'd be agitating"

re: #622 darthstar

Most kids don't differentiate between someone wearing slacks from JC Penney and someone wearing slacks from Nordstrom. Pants are pants. In a group, they all look the same. And if it's a blazer from JC Penney or Nordstrom, it's still going to look similar enough that the kids aren't going to be comparing labels.

you'd be surprised - the overall similarity emphasises the small differences

637 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:51:24pm

re: #635 reine.de.tout

My wife is kind of swamped with classes right now, but I can write you an email (I still have yours, I think) about the way she went about doing biology as a career, and about my other friends who have. Bug me about it if I don't get it done in the next day or two.

If she does decide that biology in a lab setting is for her, then I can involve my wife.

638 Jadespring  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:51:27pm

re: #605 Obdicut

There aren't any actual verified cases of that occurring. Also, selective memory is in play; I have worry-thoughts about the people I care about every day. If someone I was close to died tomorrow, I'd have had a 'vision' of them coming to harm. Doesn't mean a thing.

THis is a great book on scientific research into the afterlife.

Spook, by Mary Roach

Unsurprisingly, nobody has discovered a shred of a hint of evidence. But a lot of things have been debunked and explained.

I'm not suggesting that it has something to do with an afterlife or even an actual spirit visiting as I said could be something else. I'm not sure how you would go about scientifically verifying something like that either. That particular type of 'story' isn't really that easy to study in real time or after the fact. Sure it could be explained by a general recall of a worry that happens to coincide with a death but sometimes it's really specific.
Like my Great Grandma knew after having a dream that brother, a soldier was dead. She was absolutely convinced of it to the point of starting to prepare for his funeral. Rest of the family thought she was nuts and wrote it off as worry. Ended up that they eventually got word (took a lot longer then) that yes he had died around about the time that GG told everyone he had. Coincidence? It's not outside the realm of possibility. However I think writing it off as just an entire family suffering from selective memory or memory timing issues is pushing it as an explanation.

It also wasn't the last time that GG knew about people dying before finding out for sure. Maybe she was just really good at unconsciously putting bits of other info together and drawing conclusions that statistically worked out sometimes. I dunno. Regardless it was something that she did enough to be known for being good at it.

639 reine.de.tout  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:52:18pm

re: #637 Obdicut

My wife is kind of swamped with classes right now, but I can write you an email (I still have yours, I think) about the way she went about doing biology as a career, and about my other friends who have. Bug me about it if I don't get it done in the next day or two.

If she does decide that biology in a lab setting is for her, then I can involve my wife.

Ok, will do.
Click my avatar, my email addy is in my profile info.
It's also at the cookbook blog.
If I don't hear from you in a day or two, I'll bug ya all right!
thanks

640 kirkspencer  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:52:37pm

re: #607 kirkspencer

One of the studies I referenced above led to quite a debate on the subject. Brunsma and Rockquemore determined the information. The leader challenging their numbers was Ann Bodine. The original study and A. Bodine's challenges are behind various paywalls, but Brunsma and Rockquemore's keystone response can be found at this link.

Again, the basic is that there's a negative impact on top achievement when uniforms are required. All due respect and congratulations to re: #614 reine.de.tout's daughter, but the trend says she was an exception.

One additional point in regard to uniforms in other nations. Those are different cultures. Things acceptable there are intolerable here (and vice versa). I'm leery of arguments based on such which don't acknowledge the differences and at least attempt to equalize the issue.

641 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:53:45pm

re: #616 Obdicut

And restriction of abortion rights means that some women don't get abortions. It has real-world effects. A woman who, without the restriction, would have had access to abortion, did not.

Nobody has contested that in the least, at all, in any way, in any fashion, in this thread. You resent something that hasn't been said.

Nobody said that all conservatives are against abortions, either. I have no idea why you'd protest against something that hasn't been said.

However, your claim that most members of the GOP share Frum's pro-choice position is factually untrue-- unless you are accusing the GOP itself, and those 70% of members who are pro-life (and NOT pro-choice, in a dichotomous choice) are lying or misrepresenting their views.

Well, for now I will standby my remarks re GOP voters, Rhetoric is one thing what is 'boots on the ground' is quite another. You make a point- if the numbers change ('boots on the ground' versus what a pollster is records), the political climate might change.

Some of my previous remarks were aimed at my interlocutor who claimed my support for abortion was dishonest and deceitful without a shred of evidence to that fact. I came to my position slowly and deliberately. It was not easy. For someone to dismiss me so cavalierly- well, that speaks for itself- especially given his track record. re: #623 allegro

From my experience, both personal and with women of my acquaintance, the most common emotion is relief, tremendous relief.

No one made such a claim. It was stated, accurately, that overturning abortion rights is a platform issue of the Republican party.

Some women grieve for a time - it depends completely on their individual circumstances. I have never known one to make the decision lightly. It is an unpleasant procedure that no one does cuz it's just a really fun time.There are some women who are conflicted. Most make the decision because it's the wise and responsible choice to make. The story of long-term consequences with a majority of women experiencing horrid emotional problems as a result of an abortion is nonsense.


While your experience with abortion is interesting, they are not necessarily germane. There are many women who have been traumatized by the experience.

Now, what you said re the GOP plank is right on the money. There is no arguing that. Still, the GOP cannot abandon at least half of it's supporters. As I noted, I believe it is a plank to placate the portion of the electorate who want it on the platform. Having it on the platform is one thing- a concerted general effort is another. There may come a time when that happens, but for now, I just don't see the GOP throwing away up to half their voters. The vast majority of TP voters vote GOP anyways. I don't believe Republicans are willing to throw away so many voters.

Just my opinion.

642 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:53:54pm

re: #638 Jadespring

What about the many, many women who had dreams of their brothers/husbands/sons/fathers dying that didn't come true?

643 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:54:11pm

re: #552 PT Barnum

or a unhealthy lack of closure for someone close to you that has died. My wife lost an older sister 5 years before we met. She's still dealing with it.

My younger brother died in 2001 and I'm finding it extremely difficult to deal with, however, I still don't believe in ghosts. Another younger brother is also having a difficult time, he's a Christian and he believes in ghosts.

My IQ and his IQ are just about identical so relative intelligence has no bearing.

644 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:55:01pm

re: #643 b_sharp

I'm so sorry to hear that.

645 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:55:28pm

re: #620 researchok

Parents need to have a good relationship with their kids, good enough that the kid can go to the parent with a problem, and expect to get help. If the relationship isn't that good, hopefully another family member can be trusted to rely on. That's me, for my sisters kids. They know it, and I don't care what their problem is, I am available to help get it fixed. Period. End of discussion.

646 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:55:37pm

re: #556 Varek Raith

What's up with "ghosts" haunting abandoned or seldom visited structures???
Screw that, I'm haunting a strip club!
:P

It's nice to have well thought out priorities.

647 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:56:15pm

re: #557 PT Barnum

I think that's a great idea, Walter. I am going right back to my side of the aisle just like you said. That way nobody will ever know that I ever agreed with you on anything... Oh, wait...

I see nothing.

648 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:56:46pm

re: #617 jamesfirecat

Here's the problem.

Is Abortion Rare now?

If it isn't, then we're either going to have to either restrict the supply or the demand for abortion...

How do we go about that?

"Rare" in an inherently ambiguous measurement. Rare compared to what? Among women who know they are pregnant, the miscarriage rate is around 15 to 20%. I've seen other figures that indicate as many as 50% of successfully fertilized eggs will not come to term, and most of those are lost within seven weeks of conception.

649 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:56:50pm

re: #641 researchok

There are also many women who have NOT been traumatized by an abortion. It depends on the person, and the experience, and the expectations.

650 jamesfirecat  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:57:18pm

re: #626 Floral Giraffe

Education.
Women and girls who understand that THEY are the ones to bear the burden ( so to speak) of unprotected sex, need to know HOW to protect themselves. If they have sex with protection, the abortion issue is MUCH smaller. And that is good.

Works for me, maybe we can also increase ease and supply of protection, morning after pill and so and so forth...

651 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:57:43pm

re: #643 b_sharp

My younger brother died in 2001 and I'm finding it extremely difficult to deal with, however, I still don't believe in ghosts. Another younger brother is also having a difficult time, he's a Christian and he believes in ghosts.

My IQ and his IQ are just about identical so relative intelligence has no bearing.

James Randi, magician and skeptic (and a past acquaintance), has always comment on the fact that it is easier to fool scientist and intelligent people with demonstrations of psychic magic than people with more common sense than formal education.

652 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:57:55pm

re: #563 Jadespring

I have a few. Cue the spooky music. Most do have explanations that could work except for one which to this day I haven't found any plausible explanation that would work. Wouldn't mean much except it wasn't just me that it happened too.

It involved a clock radio that would turn on...when it was unplugged.

Oooohh!!!

Look inside for a large malfunctioning capacitor.

653 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:58:24pm

re: #631 wrenchwench

I think that's bullshit. Propaganda.

I voted for Bush once, despite his anti-choice stand. I won't be doing that sort of thing again.

Why "resent"? Do you mean you "disagree"? Or you object to someone who holds that view sincerely? Have you read anything by women who say there were no long term consequences?

We are talking about the heart of the issue, really. Are there long term consequences to abortion? I can only speak for myself and my ex. You get over it, but you don't forget.

I have no qualm with anyone who holds sincere beliefs. I take issue with those who believe my beliefs are not sincere. I am absolutely pro choice- of the Bill Clinton 'safe, legal and rare' school.

654 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:58:48pm

re: #565 PT Barnum

Would it run for any length of time? Could be nothing more than a capacitor that was discharging at odd times.

Damn. You beat me to it.

655 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:58:52pm

re: #652 b_sharp

Oooohh!!!

Look inside for a large malfunctioning capacitor.

Or a battery backup.

656 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:59:25pm

re: #649 Floral Giraffe

There are also many women who have NOT been traumatized by an abortion. It depends on the person, and the experience, and the expectations.

Absolutely.

And therein lies much of the source of passion in the debate. It isn't black and white for everyone.

657 jamesfirecat  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 4:59:37pm

re: #641 researchok

Well, for now I will standby my remarks re GOP voters, Rhetoric is one thing what is 'boots on the ground' is quite another. You make a point- if the numbers change ('boots on the ground' versus what a pollster is records), the political climate might change.

Some of my previous remarks were aimed at my interlocutor who claimed my support for abortion was dishonest and deceitful without a shred of evidence to that fact. I came to my position slowly and deliberately. It was not easy. For someone to dismiss me so cavalierly- well, that speaks for itself- especially given his track record. re: #623 allegro


While your experience with abortion is interesting, they are not necessarily germane. There are many women who have been traumatized by the experience.

Now, what you said re the GOP plank is right on the money. There is no arguing that. Still, the GOP cannot abandon at least half of it's supporters. As I noted, I believe it is a plank to placate the portion of the electorate who want it on the platform. Having it on the platform is one thing- a concerted general effort is another. There may come a time when that happens, but for now, I just don't see the GOP throwing away up to half their voters. The vast majority of TP voters vote GOP anyways. I don't believe Republicans are willing to throw away so many voters.

Just my opinion.

GOP's preference for driving away Sane voters rather than ejecting religious Socons is what got them into this mess in the first place.

658 avanti  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:00:26pm

Record level of air strikes against Taliban by our Muslim POTUS/

Pakistan air strikes.

659 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:00:27pm

re: #657 jamesfirecat

GOP's preference for driving away Sane voters rather than ejecting religious Socons is what got them into this mess in the first place.

What mess?

660 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:00:49pm

re: #645 Floral Giraffe

Parents need to have a good relationship with their kids, good enough that the kid can go to the parent with a problem, and expect to get help. If the relationship isn't that good, hopefully another family member can be trusted to rely on. That's me, for my sisters kids. They know it, and I don't care what their problem is, I am available to help get it fixed. Period. End of discussion.

Lucky kids.

661 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:01:38pm

re: #657 jamesfirecat

GOP's preference for driving away Sane voters rather than ejecting religious Socons is what got them into this mess in the first place.

Ain't that the freakin' truth!

Worst mistake the GOP has made in a long time.

662 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:01:45pm

re: #660 researchok

Everyone needs somebody, you know?

663 jamesfirecat  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:02:55pm

re: #659 Walter L. Newton

What mess?

The 2008 election.

The mess that they now are on the wrong end of a shrinking demographics war.

664 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:03:22pm

re: #657 jamesfirecat

In a lot of ways, the evangelicals have gutted the party.

The problem is where do moderate conservatives go? No one makes room for them.

665 Interesting Times  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:03:25pm

re: #641 researchok

While your experience with abortion is interesting, they are not necessarily germane. There are many women who have been traumatized by the experience.

And many other women who were not:

I'm Not Sorry

However, there are women, perhaps just as many or more, who have much different feelings–feelings of relief, of conviction that they made the right decision, yes, maybe even of joy. They have no regrets or remorse. They don’t get bummed out on the anniversary of the procedure; they don’t look longingly at a kid playing and think that their fetus would be that old by now. They recovered from the procedure easily and got on with their lives. Those feelings need to be respected as well–but they’re not.

666 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:04:03pm

re: #656 researchok

It doesn't HAVE to be black or white. It has to be somebody you love, who needs help. That's enough for me. I can not imagine being pregnant from incest. God Bless those who deal with that kind of issue. I think I would break.

667 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:04:15pm

re: #665 publicityStunted

And many other women who were not:

I'm Not Sorry

Exactly. It's not simple or uniform.

668 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:05:05pm

re: #653 researchok

I am absolutely pro choice- of the Bill Clinton 'safe, legal and rare' school.

I think I need another term for your position. "Pro" is too strong. You seem like you're "OK with choice". I'm PRO choice.

669 allegro  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:05:13pm

re: #641 researchok

While your experience with abortion is interesting, they are not necessarily germane. There are many women who have been traumatized by the experience.

Oh, of course. What would a woman know about something only women can experience? Silly, silly little girls that we are. You would know better about those "many women who have been traumatized".

You, sir, are an asshole.

670 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:05:38pm

re: #666 Floral Giraffe

It doesn't HAVE to be black or white. It has to be somebody you love, who needs help. That's enough for me. I can not imagine being pregnant from incest. God Bless those who deal with that kind of issue. I think I would break.

Yes, that was my point.

As I said earlier, whatever problems there are that come from preventing the problem, they aren't as big as the problem itself.

671 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:06:41pm

re: #669 allegro

Oh, of course. What would a woman know about something only women can experience? Silly, silly little girls that we are. You would know better about those "many women who have been traumatized".

You, sir, are an asshole.

I shall pass your wisdom on to my ex wife.

Then again, what would she know?

672 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:06:54pm

re: #598 Jadespring

Stuff like that is freaky.

Do you remember the talk? Dream or not did the talk help with your grief with her dying? Personally I've come to the conclusion that when things like that happen does it even matter if it's 'real' in terms of an actual ghost that can be measured vs 'real' in terms of it being an experience that means something to the person. If someone is convinced that they were visited by someone that has died and it helps them then debating the reality of whether it happened due to an outside force or some sort of inner created force misses the essence of it.

The ones that get me to at least go 'hmmm' though are when people have 'dreams' or 'visits' from people who have died, before they know they've died. Spirits or something else those are funky and hard to explain with a 'it's your grieving mind creating a scenario to help cope with it,' explanations.

Until recently I spoke to my brother every night. Even though I knew they were dreams, the virtual contact inside my head still felt really good. I have no idea why the dreams stopped.

673 allegro  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:07:37pm

re: #653 researchok

I am absolutely pro choice- of the Bill Clinton 'safe, legal and rare' school.

That would be Hillary Clinton. You can't even give a woman that, can you?

674 Killgore Trout  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:07:39pm

Cute Girl Has A Catchy Dance

675 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:07:40pm

re: #672 b_sharp

Until recently I spoke to my brother every night. Even though I knew they were dreams, the virtual contact inside my head still felt really good. I have no idea why the dreams stopped.

You said all you needed to say to "him." Maybe?

676 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:07:53pm

re: #668 wrenchwench

I think I need another term for your position. "Pro" is too strong. You seem like you're "OK with choice". I'm PRO choice.

No, I am quite pro choice. The alternative is not acceptable.

That does not mean that we ought not hope for far fewer abortions.

677 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:07:55pm

re: #675 Walter L. Newton

You said all you needed to say to "him." Maybe?

Or vice versa.

678 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:08:33pm

re: #670 researchok

Yes, that was my point.

As I said earlier, whatever problems there are that come from preventing the problem, they aren't as big as the problem itself.

You didn't make that point well.

You said:


I also happen to espouse the same position as the liberal American Prospect- that "Abortion is a right that ends in sorrow. Democratic rhetoric in the future must acknowledge this fact."

You are now acknowledging that abortion does not necessarily end in sorrow.

And you should really consider whether attitudes towards abortion contribute to the trauma that women experience.

679 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:08:45pm

re: #600 PT Barnum

Often the timing is not remembered quite right. I've seen several articles which explained how our memories don't work very well in recording objective reality when it fails to make a good narrative.

Some memories go straight to long term memory and that throws off the sequencing. Feelings of deja vu are the same thing.

680 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:09:07pm

re: #677 EmmmieG

Or vice versa.

The "vice versa" would be "you heard everything you needed to hear from him." No one or no thing was actually speaking.

681 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:09:35pm

re: #680 Walter L. Newton

The "vice versa" would be "you heard everything you needed to hear from him." No one or no thing was actually speaking.

We could argue this all day, with no result.

682 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:09:39pm

re: #679 b_sharp

Some memories go straight to long term memory and that throws off the sequencing. Feelings of deja vu are the same thing.

I had vu dega once... the feeling of not being here before.

683 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:09:42pm

re: #673 allegro

That would be Hillary Clinton. You can't even give a woman that, can you?



Right
:

But the rally ultimately left me cold. I realized I was more aware of the ambivalence felt by women who had had legal abortions than by those who, decades before, had died in back-alley abortions. Bill Clinton was much closer to this understanding when he pushed for abortions to be “safe, legal, and rare.” That line, generated by the White House, caught the spirit of our country. People responded to it positively, says Gloria Feldt, president of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America, because “we all believe that prevention is better than a cure.” When Clinton left, for the most part, the phrase did too, but “safe, legal, and rare” is what we all want. No one, not even Smeal or Gloria Steinem, is ever “pro-abortion.” Legal, safe ab

ortion is the best outcome for what is always a bad situation.

684 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:09:58pm

re: #602 Jadespring

Yeah that's possible, except the one where the person tells people about it or gets upset about it after it happens and then it's later confirmed that yes indeed the person died.

Another answer is some people fear the worst all the time and probability just about guarantees some will be right.

685 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:10:15pm

Hi, all.

686 lostlakehiker  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:10:21pm

re: #134 Obdicut

Is there any difference between breast implants and abortions that you can think of, Rogue?

Umm, one makes pregnancy more likely, the other, less?

687 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:10:55pm

re: #604 darthstar

My second grade class (I'm between the two brownies (Joanie and Melissa) on the back row...yeah, I had fantasies at that age too...major crush on Joanie that lasted through the 8th grade). And yes, the kid front left is gay...we knew it then.

My second grade pic is in black and white.

688 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:10:58pm

re: #681 EmmmieG

We could argue this all day, with no result.

Well... no we can't. If you are suggesting a spirit or ghost was doing the speaking, then that's bull, and there is no proof on this planet that you can offer to make that point.

689 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:11:15pm

re: #685 Dark_Falcon

Hi, all.

Heya. Have you read this?
[Link: www.morningstar.nildram.co.uk...]

690 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:12:31pm

re: #678 Obdicut

You didn't make that point well.

You said:

You are now acknowledging that abortion does not necessarily end in sorrow.

And you should really consider whether attitudes towards abortion contribute to the trauma that women experience.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. Of course all women are different and will react differently.

My point is that I believe there ought to be fewer abortions. Whatever it takes- sex ed, condoms and pills in schools, whatever it takes.

691 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:13:25pm

re: #622 darthstar

Most kids don't differentiate between someone wearing slacks from JC Penney and someone wearing slacks from Nordstrom. Pants are pants. In a group, they all look the same. And if it's a blazer from JC Penney or Nordstrom, it's still going to look similar enough that the kids aren't going to be comparing labels.

I'll avoid citing numerous real-life examples, mainly because I don't feel like vomiting at the moment. However, when I was in Jr. High and High School (rural and less-rural Texas, mid to late 80s) there were heavy social consequences among kids in certain cliques if they failed to represent the correct brand names with their clothing.

There was severe social stratification anyway: First and foremost was economic. Within each of those two phyla you found every permutation of atheletic, awkward, brainy, dopey, creative, dull, overachiever, underachiever, attractive, unattractive, good parents, bad parents, etc. There were a billion layers of social filters that everyone was sifted through, and once you were put into your niche, you knew it, and so did everyone else.

692 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:14:21pm

re: #690 researchok

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. Of course all women are different and will react differently.

My point is that I believe there ought to be fewer abortions. Whatever it takes- sex ed, condoms and pills in schools, whatever it takes.

Well... I think everyone agrees with that... I don't know anyone who is pro-choice who suggests that abortion is the first answer to a pregnancy. But it is frequently the right answer... and a legal one.

693 Varek Raith  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:14:47pm

re: #691 negativ

Yikes!
In highschool, I was the "whatever, leave me alone" type.

694 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:14:56pm

re: #689 Obdicut

Heya. Have you read this?
[Link: www.morningstar.nildram.co.uk...]

Very cool, thank you.

Please excuse me if I mostly lurk for a little bit. I don't have a clear opinion of abortion right now, and in light of my recent foot-in-mouth episodes I think I should keep my mouth shut about the matter.

695 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:15:24pm

re: #693 Varek Raith

Yikes!
In highschool, I was the "whatever, leave me alone" type.

LOL!
And, you're not now???
// I think...

696 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:15:33pm

re: #692 Walter L. Newton

Well... I think everyone agrees with that... I don't know anyone who is pro-choice who suggests that abortion is the first answer to a pregnancy. But it is frequently the right answer... and a legal one.

No issue with that, for sure

See my 620

697 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:15:45pm

(New in pages) More blood for Randall Terry's hands?

14 killed, dozens injured over Quran desecration protests in Indian-controlled Kashmir

Hundreds of Muslim residents in the region took to roads defying curfew after an Iran based television channel reportedly showed a group of people tearing apart pages of the holy Quran in Washington. (emphasis added)

Posted Saturday by Thanos:
Bloody Randall Terry Leads Anti-Muslim Quran Burning Outside White House, Pages Ripped Out of Koran

698 Varek Raith  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:15:50pm

re: #695 Floral Giraffe

LOL!
And, you're not now???
// I think...

Whatever.
Leave me alone.
:P

699 reine.de.tout  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:15:54pm

re: #683 researchok


Right
:

abortion is the best outcome for what is always a bad situation.

er-
It doesn't have to be a bad situation; and there is another option, which is to have the baby, and if one is too young to raise the child, place the baby for adoption.

My family has been there, done that.
And in fact, I ran into the adoptive mom of my daughter's son the other day, and got to see photos and get caught up on all the cuteness. This lady glows with the happiness of being a mom, which she thought she'd never be. And grandma (that would be me) glowed at the sight of a now 2-year-old kid doing all the cute things 2-year-olds do.

700 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:15:57pm

re: #688 Walter L. Newton

Well... no we can't. If you are suggesting a spirit or ghost was doing the speaking, then that's bull, and there is no proof on this planet that you can offer to make that point.

We will have to disagree.

However, bear in mind that disbelieving in Ida Mae's hauntings, but believing there is life after death is something like disbelieving in Jim Bob's abductions, but believing that somewhere in this big Universe, there probably is a form of life. (Which does probably not eat Reese's pieces or burst through people's stomachs.)

701 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:16:32pm

Oops. Gotta run.

702 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:16:47pm

re: #644 Obdicut

I'm so sorry to hear that.

He was an adrenaline junky and died feeding his habit. He left two teenage daughters who have turned into terrific young women.

703 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:16:47pm

re: #698 Varek Raith

Whatever.
Leave me alone.
:P

Smacks lightly.

704 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:16:53pm

re: #690 researchok

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. Of course all women are different and will react differently.

My point is that I believe there ought to be fewer abortions. Whatever it takes- sex ed, condoms and pills in schools, whatever it takes.

I believe there need to be fewer unwanted pregnancies.

I don't see the abortions as the problem. I see the unwanted pregnancies as the problem. Abortions are a symptom of the problem.

705 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:17:03pm

re: #699 reine.de.tout

er-
It doesn't have to be a bad situation; and there is another option, which is to have the baby, and if one is too young to raise the child, place the baby for adoption.

My family has been there, done that.
And in fact, I ran into the adoptive mom of my daughter's son the other day, and got to see photos and get caught up on all the cuteness. This lady glows with the happiness of being a mom, which she thought she'd never be. And grandma (that would be me) glowed at the sight of a now 2-year-old kid doing all the cute things 2-year-olds do.

No argument here.

I was addressing a situation where abortion is the primary option on the table.

706 Kragar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:17:32pm

re: #698 Varek Raith

Whatever.
Leave me alone.
:P

Whatever

707 brookly red  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:17:43pm

re: #704 Obdicut

I believe there need to be fewer unwanted pregnancies.

I don't see the abortions as the problem. I see the unwanted pregnancies as the problem. Abortions are a symptom of the problem.

that kinda makes sense...

708 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:17:58pm

re: #704 Obdicut

I believe there need to be fewer unwanted pregnancies.

I don't see the abortions as the problem. I see the unwanted pregnancies as the problem. Abortions are a symptom of the problem.

Hallelujah!

See my 620. I should have been more clear in follow up comments.

709 Varek Raith  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:18:26pm

The internet does weird things to one's personality.
I blame Bush.

710 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:18:30pm

re: #651 Walter L. Newton

James Randi, magician and skeptic (and a past acquaintance), has always comment on the fact that it is easier to fool scientist and intelligent people with demonstrations of psychic magic than people with more common sense than formal education.

That is probably true. Even Randi was fooled by AGW denialists for a while.

711 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:19:05pm

re: #697 Shiplord Kirel

(New in pages) More blood for Randall Terry's hands?

14 killed, dozens injured over Quran desecration protests in Indian-controlled Kashmir

Posted Saturday by Thanos:
Bloody Randall Terry Leads Anti-Muslim Quran Burning Outside White House, Pages Ripped Out of Koran

I hate the new media world sometimes. One loon can do something stupid that the US government can't stop, it get broadcast around the world and people die. It just sucks.

712 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:19:30pm

re: #651 Walter L. Newton

James Randi, magician and skeptic (and a past acquaintance), has always comment on the fact that it is easier to fool scientist and intelligent people with demonstrations of psychic magic than people with more common sense than formal education.

As he said:

I'm going to postulate - just an idea - that perhaps there is a secret chemical that has been genetically engineered which is on the surface of that paper so that when the Ph.D. candidate receives that roll of paper this chemical is absorbed by the skin, goes into the bloodstream and is conducted directly to the brain. This is a very carefully engineered chemical which goes directly - please don't laugh; this is science - goes directly to the speech center of the brain and paralyzes the brain in such a way that two sentences from then on, in any given language, are no longer possible to be pronounced by that person. Those two sentences are, "I don't know" and "I was wrong".

I honestly don't know about that; however, my observations of the situation are that I have never heard any Ph.D. utter either one of those sentences. I have never heard them say, "I'd like to marry a lobster" either, but that doesn't mean they can't say it. But those two sentences never seem to pass their lips.

713 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:21:02pm

re: #678 Obdicut

Attitudes toward abortion ABSOLUTELY contribute to the feelings that women have about abortion. However, if an abortion is what you decide that you need, you want to get the medical procedure done, safely and quickly. And be done with it. If you CHOOSE to dwell on it, well, that's a choice.
Some of us, grew up without decent medical knowledge of the consequences of unprotected sex.

714 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:21:05pm

re: #697 Shiplord Kirel

(New in pages) More blood for Randall Terry's hands?

14 killed, dozens injured over Quran desecration protests in Indian-controlled Kashmir

Posted Saturday by Thanos:
Bloody Randall Terry Leads Anti-Muslim Quran Burning Outside White House, Pages Ripped Out of Koran

I'm so pissed off at Terry Randall I'm not even going to do my usual Zionist Schtick about Kashmir.

715 allegro  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:21:17pm

re: #712 negativ

honestly don't know about that; however, my observations of the situation are that I have never heard any Ph.D. utter either one of those sentences. I have never heard them say, "I'd like to marry a lobster" either, but that doesn't mean they can't say it. But those two sentences never seem to pass their lips.

Clearly, he has known few phD in science.

716 Varek Raith  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:21:22pm

re: #711 Dark_Falcon

I hate the new media world sometimes. One loon can do something stupid that the US government can't stop, it get broadcast around the world and people die. It just sucks.

Hell, the MSM can completely ignore this story and it wouldn't change a thing, thanks to the power of the internet.

717 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:22:08pm

re: #676 researchok

No, I am quite pro choice. The alternative is not acceptable.

That does not mean that we ought not hope for far fewer abortions.

You are "pro-choice" without qualms about suggesting it will have long-term negative consequences for some significant number of women. That's anti-choice propaganda. You may have enthusiasm about keeping it legal, but you object to having it loud and proud on the agenda. Reading it again, I heartily disagree with this attitude:

"Abortion is a right that ends in sorrow. Democratic rhetoric in the future must acknowledge this fact."

A political platform must acknowledge that abortion ends in sorrow? That's absurd and offensive.

718 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:22:19pm

re: #711 Dark_Falcon

I hate the new media world sometimes. One loon can do something stupid that the US government can't stop, it get broadcast around the world and people die. It just sucks.

The short-attention-span instant impact media can provide the inflammatory images a lot more effectively than they can provide relevant background: That only a handful of Americans support these acts and the government certainly does not endorse them.

719 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:22:58pm

re: #718 Shiplord Kirel

Also, people in countries where governments violently suppress protests have difficulty believing just how real and true our freedom of speech is.

720 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:23:41pm

re: #716 Varek Raith

Hell, the MSM can completely ignore this story and it wouldn't change a thing, thanks to the power of the internet.

I know. The US media didn't give that loon much attention but one internet vid can be enough to ignite a riot. And there's not much we can do about that vid since both the act depicted and the taking of the vid are constitutionally protected speech.

721 brookly red  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:23:41pm

re: #718 Shiplord Kirel

The short-attention-span instant impact media can provide the inflammatory images a lot more effectively than they can provide relevant background: That only a handful of Americans support these acts and the government certainly does not endorse them.


Images are king, especially in a world where people can't read...

722 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:23:43pm

re: #675 Walter L. Newton

You said all you needed to say to "him." Maybe?

Possibly. We didn't talk that much in the dreams, but we did a lot of things together. Maybe that's what I needed to do.

723 calochortus  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:25:14pm

re: #641 researchok

Some women have been traumatized by abortion. Some have been traumatized by having children. Or having a child die, or not by not being able to get pregnant. As a woman I deeply, deeply resent paternalistic attitudes about my body and my mind. I am an adult. I am as capable as any man of making rational decisions.

The folks who worry about the horrible guilt I will suffer for the rest of my life if I abort a fetus with a fatal genetic anomaly don't seem very interested in empowering me when it comes to birth control.

724 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:26:01pm

re: #682 Walter L. Newton

I had vu dega once... the feeling of not being here before.

LOL.

You writing jokes for Steven Wright?

725 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:26:03pm

re: #717 wrenchwench

You are "pro-choice" without qualms about suggesting it will have long-term negative consequences for some significant number of women. That's anti-choice propaganda. You may have enthusiasm about keeping it legal, but you object to having it loud and proud on the agenda. Reading it again, I heartily disagree with this attitude:

A political platform must acknowledge that abortion ends in sorrow? That's absurd and offensive.

There are a lot of pro choice people that share those beliefs. Abortion ought to be safe, legal and rare.

Like I said, I'm of the Clinton persuasion on the matter.

726 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:26:10pm

re: #719 Obdicut

Also, people in countries where governments violently suppress protests have difficulty believing just how real and true our freedom of speech is.

I think I mentioned this a few days ago, but I recall reading an account of interview between a Western journalist and a Muslim fundamentalist whose exact job title I can't recall. The journalist describes arguing with this guy over freedom of religion, and being told that the United States executes heretical Christians, so why shouldn't Muslim states do the same to heretical Muslims?

The journalist, after much argument, finally sorts out that the guy is talking about...wait for it...Waco...which he believes was an assault on Koresh's group for heresy.

727 jamesfirecat  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:26:32pm

re: #717 wrenchwench

You are "pro-choice" without qualms about suggesting it will have long-term negative consequences for some significant number of women. That's anti-choice propaganda. You may have enthusiasm about keeping it legal, but you object to having it loud and proud on the agenda. Reading it again, I heartily disagree with this attitude:

A political platform must acknowledge that abortion ends in sorrow? That's absurd and offensive.

///Yeah and we all know making absurd and offensive things part of a party's platform is the modern GOP's strategy!

728 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:26:42pm

re: #723 calochortus

Some women have been traumatized by abortion. Some have been traumatized by having children. Or having a child die, or not by not being able to get pregnant. As a woman I deeply, deeply resent paternalistic attitudes about my body and my mind. I am an adult. I am as capable as any man of making rational decisions.

The folks who worry about the horrible guilt I will suffer for the rest of my life if I abort a fetus with a fatal genetic anomaly don't seem very interested in empowering me when it comes to birth control.

I don't disagree.

729 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:27:19pm

re: #719 Obdicut

Also, people in countries where governments violently suppress protests have difficulty believing just how real and true our freedom of speech is.

Exactly. They don't believe us when we tell them that our Constitution does not allow the suppression of such acts. Where they come from, that's usually just an official's way of demanding a bribe. We need to keep explaining to the world how our system works, but in some places understanding will be a long time coming.

730 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:27:33pm

re: #725 researchok

There are a lot of pro choice people that share those beliefs. Abortion ought to be safe, legal and rare.

Like I said, I'm of the Clinton persuasion on the matter.

I agree with the Clinton formulation, but sorrow or its lack is a personal matter, not a political one.

731 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:28:00pm

re: #712 negativ

As he said:

I was just Googling a few things about Randi, since I wasn't sure if this was public, and I was quite surprised, he came out of the closet last March 2010. This surprised me since most of us in the magical entertainment business knew this, and I knew it because I personally knew him back in the last 60's early 70's.

"Well, here goes. I really resent the term, but I use it because it’s recognized and accepted. I’m gay."

[Link: www.randi.org...]

And a lot of people now a days probably don't know this, but, back in the 50-60's, he was one of the worlds best escape artist, frequently considered to be a successor and on par with Harry Houdini.

Magic and mentalism was a side talent, escapology was his forte.

732 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:28:20pm

re: #727 jamesfirecat

///Yeah and we all know making absurd and offensive things part of a party's platform is the modern GOP's strategy!

I was strictly going after the sentiment expressed, not the party. Obviously the GOP's platform is much more offensive (to me).

733 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:28:28pm

re: #730 SanFranciscoZionist

I agree with the Clinton formulation, but sorrow or its lack is a personal matter, not a political one.

Agreed.

I only bring it up because that was how it was presented.

734 avanti  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:28:43pm

Primary results as they come in:

results

735 Jadespring  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:28:55pm

re: #726 SanFranciscoZionist

I think I mentioned this a few days ago, but I recall reading an account of interview between a Western journalist and a Muslim fundamentalist whose exact job title I can't recall. The journalist describes arguing with this guy over freedom of religion, and being told that the United States executes heretical Christians, so why shouldn't Muslim states do the same to heretical Muslims?

The journalist, after much argument, finally sorts out that the guy is talking about...wait for it...Waco...which he believes was an assault on Koresh's group for heresy.

That's interesting. Do you recall where you read the account?

736 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:29:03pm

re: #724 b_sharp

LOL.

You writing jokes for Steven Wright?

That's a lot older than Wright... I think I first heard that on some comedy album in the 60's... can't remember who... but I've been using that line for ever.

737 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:29:14pm

re: #595 EmmmieG

Remember Sears' "Toughskin" jeans... had re-enforced knees... frickin' kevlar.

They were guaranteed never to wear out in the knees... and by god, they didn't!

And wow! Were they ugly!

738 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:29:18pm

re: #732 wrenchwench

I was strictly going after the sentiment expressed, not the party. Obviously the GOP's platform is much more offensive (to me).

I agree with that as well. That is a plank that I do not agree with.

739 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:29:50pm

re: #733 researchok

Agreed.

I only bring it up because that was how it was presented.

No, you quoted that woman earlier and said you "espouse the same position". See #606.

740 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:30:16pm

re: #726 SanFranciscoZionist

I think I mentioned this a few days ago, but I recall reading an account of interview between a Western journalist and a Muslim fundamentalist whose exact job title I can't recall. The journalist describes arguing with this guy over freedom of religion, and being told that the United States executes heretical Christians, so why shouldn't Muslim states do the same to heretical Muslims?

The journalist, after much argument, finally sorts out that the guy is talking about...wait for it...Waco...which he believes was an assault on Koresh's group for heresy.

Was the reporter able to explain the real situation once he found out the root mistake?

741 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:31:02pm

re: #739 wrenchwench

No, you quoted that woman earlier and said you "espouse the same position". See #606.

Well, yes, that is how it was presented.

Have we crossed wires here?

742 jamesfirecat  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:32:01pm

re: #732 wrenchwench

I was strictly going after the sentiment expressed, not the party. Obviously the GOP's platform is much more offensive (to me).

I know, it's just I saw a joke so I took it.

Can one deny certain state GOP platforms haven't included absurd and offensive things?

743 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:32:24pm

re: #697 Shiplord Kirel

(New in pages) More blood for Randall Terry's hands?

14 killed, dozens injured over Quran desecration protests in Indian-controlled Kashmir

Posted Saturday by Thanos:
Bloody Randall Terry Leads Anti-Muslim Quran Burning Outside White House, Pages Ripped Out of Koran

There is something truly sinister about the Quran haters and anti-abortion crazies being tied so neatly together like this. The actual connection would logically seem to be coincidence, if not counter-intuitive, since the most radical Islamists are also violently opposed to abortion rights. Yet somehow it fails to surprise or shock in the current context.

744 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:34:38pm

re: #734 avanti

Primary results as they come in:

results

I hope Castle can close the gap. If he can't, say 'Hello' to Senator Beau Biden. O'Donnell will get run over like a toad under a steamroller.

745 calochortus  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:34:55pm

re: #728 researchok

I don't disagree.

And I agree that the fewer abortions needed the better. Too many conservatives have the view that if abortion is unavailable teenagers won't have sex or some such. Or at least "those people" will be punished. If they themselves, want an abortion its entirely different because they know they are good moral people. I don't think there's a large demographic out there promoting abortion. We just want it to be safe, legal and available.

Now I have to go finish making dinner.

746 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:35:00pm

re: #639 reine.de.tout

Okay, I emailed you so I wouldn't forget to do it.

747 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:35:19pm

re: #735 Jadespring

That's interesting. Do you recall where you read the account?

I've been trying, and I can't. It's a throwaway line stuck in my memory. I wonder if it might have been part of John Hockenberry's memoir, which I read about ten years ago. I'll try to check.

I recommend Hockenberry, BTW. He's hilarious. The book also includes a discussion between a bunch of Israelis examining a Scud that landed outside their apartment complex, and a scene where Hockenberry goes up in a helicopter over the Ayatollah's funeral, leaving his wheelchair with a random Iranian on the street who stops chanting "Death to America" long enough to promise to mind the chair.

748 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:35:50pm

re: #740 Dark_Falcon

Was the reporter able to explain the real situation once he found out the root mistake?

I'm sure he tried, but I'm not sure the guy believed him.

749 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:36:35pm

Charles Krauthammer rips 'irresponsible' Palin


Leading conservative commentator Charles Krauthammer has rebuked former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin and Sen. Jim DeMint (R-S.C.) for making the “irresponsible” choice of endorsing Christine O’Donnell over Rep. Mike Castle in the Delaware GOP Senate primary.

“The Palin endorsement, I think, is disruptive and capricious,” Krauthammer said Monday night on Fox News’ “Special Report.” “Bill Buckley had a rule that he always supported the most conservative candidate who was electable, otherwise the vote is simply self-indulgence.”

750 austin_blue  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:37:02pm

When was the last time someone won an argument about abortion?

751 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:37:15pm

re: #741 researchok

Well, yes, that is how it was presented.

Have we crossed wires here?

Yes.

You said

I only bring it up because that was how it was presented.

But "it" was something you brought up earlier because you agree with it, not because of presentation.

What am I missing?

752 Jadespring  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:37:46pm

re: #747 SanFranciscoZionist

Thanks. I'll check the library for it. :)

753 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:37:54pm

re: #748 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm sure he tried, but I'm not sure the guy believed him.

Thanks. It would be hard to get him to the Islamist to believe the truth, given the miasma of distortions that fog Waco.

754 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:38:03pm

re: #88 researchok

Like I said, the GOP controls a lot of state houses and local jurisdictions.

There has been no great movement to banning abortions.

OH COME ON!!!

755 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:38:43pm

re: #750 austin_blue

When was the last time someone won an argument about abortion?

Be quiet. I've been arguing with someone I agree with for two hours now. Pretty soon we're both going to win.

756 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:38:44pm

re: #751 wrenchwench

Yes.

You said

But "it" was something you brought up earlier because you agree with it, not because of presentation.

What am I missing?

Apologies- i was referring to the AP article.

Too many conversations at once!

757 brookly red  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:39:13pm

re: #755 wrenchwench

Be quiet. I've been arguing with someone I agree with for two hours now. Pretty soon we're both going to win.

nobody wins...

758 Varek Raith  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:39:20pm

re: #750 austin_blue

When was the last time someone won an argument about abortion?

I win.
There.
See how easy that was?

759 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:39:38pm

re: #756 researchok

Apologies- i was referring to the AP article.

Too many conversations at once!

LOUD NOISES!

760 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:39:39pm

re: #750 austin_blue

When was the last time someone won an argument about abortion?

"Strange game ... the only winning move is not to play."

-WOPR aka Joshua, Wargames

761 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:39:50pm

re: #749 researchok

Charles Krauthammer rips 'irresponsible' Palin

Silly Mr. Krauthammer! WFB's argument only makes sense to sane people, and Sarah Palin is not sane. Nor are her followers.

762 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:40:09pm

I'm headed home. Thanks for the discussion, researchok, et al.

763 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:40:42pm

re: #760 goddamnedfrank

"Strange game ... the only winning move is not to play."

-WOPR aka Joshua, Wargames

"How about a nice game of Chess?"

BBL, Dinner

764 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:40:45pm

re: #755 wrenchwench

Be quiet. I've been arguing with someone I agree with for two hours now. Pretty soon we're both going to win.

I vote for WW.

We may argue, but it's always to the point, respectful and cogent.

That always gets my vote. In fact, some of my opinions have changed or have been mitigated in no small measure because of these kinds of exchanges.

765 Renaissance_Man  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:41:49pm

re: #635 reine.de.tout

She's searching, now, for what she's really interested in.
She's in the college of agriculture, thinking about doing something with maybe nutrition.

What she's REALLY interested in, actually, is the body (human or animal, doesn't matter) - the muscles, how they work, etc. That is the sort of stuff she talks about, when she talks to me. She thought about kiniseology (sp?), but she says there are tons of people in that field. If you have suggestions for where a biology degree might lead, what sort of jobs, etc., I would love to have them to pass on to her.

Do Medicine. Or nursing, or something. No end of need, no end of jobs, recession proof.

766 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:42:00pm

re: #761 Dark_Falcon

Silly Mr. Krauthammer! WFB's argument only makes sense to sane people, and Sarah Palin is not sane. Nor are her followers.

Lots of truth there.

767 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:45:33pm

re: #758 Varek Raith

I win.
There.
See how easy that was?

I just saw that!

768 Varek Raith  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:46:38pm

re: #767 researchok

I just saw that!

Do I get a prize?
.
.
.
What the hell did I even win at???
:)

769 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:46:38pm

re: #717 wrenchwench

You are "pro-choice" without qualms about suggesting it will have long-term negative consequences for some significant number of women. That's anti-choice propaganda. You may have enthusiasm about keeping it legal, but you object to having it loud and proud on the agenda. Reading it again, I heartily disagree with this attitude:

A political platform must acknowledge that abortion ends in sorrow? That's absurd and offensive.

It needs to be legal, available, and with only YOUR personal stigmas attached. JMHO.

770 engineer cat  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:47:34pm

re: #750 austin_blue

When was the last time someone won an argument about abortion?

some questions have no good answers

771 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:47:35pm

re: #768 Varek Raith

Do I get a prize?
.
.
.
What the hell did I even win at???
:)

Internet winning.

772 brookly red  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:48:17pm

re: #768 Varek Raith

Do I get a prize?
.
.
.
What the hell did I even win at???
:)

congratulations Mr. Senator.

773 Varek Raith  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:48:41pm

re: #772 brookly red

congratulations Mr. Senator.

Goddamnshit!

774 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:50:28pm

re: #768 Varek Raith

Do I get a prize?
.
.
.
What the hell did I even win at???
:)

A years supply of Rice-A-Roni and some imitation brick.

775 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:51:54pm

re: #693 Varek Raith

Yikes!
In highschool, I was the "whatever, leave me alone" type.

When I was in highschool, being the "leave me alone" type was the best way to ensure that you were never left alone, ever.

It's nearly impossible to overstate the more-or-less religious football culture of the place and time. Football jocks were invariably revered as heroes. "School spirit" was something you were expected to have in abundance, and what that meant was enthusiasm for the school football team. There sure as shit wasn't a school chess team, or a school programming team, or a school marksmanship team, or a school creative writing team. The jocks were the gladiators who fought every Friday night to establish regional territorial supremacy. Parents were very pleased with this arrangement.

"Bob" help you if you were among those who expressed no interest in trying out for the football team. Trying and failing was shameful enough, but not wanting to try was a sign of serious trouble. Bullying, to the point of injury requiring medical intervention was overlooked.

776 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:51:59pm

Is this a dead thread?

Is this what it feels like being a ghost?

Why is the sky blue?

777 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:52:17pm

re: #773 Varek Raith

Goddamnshit!

Free Healthcare for life..For Senators..It doesn't get any better..And the pension...With that I could fish every day...Dang it...

778 palomino  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:53:45pm

Can we put to rest the absurd notion that tea partiers are not social conservatives?

Here's one of the TP leaders and he's quite clear about it. Some of the TP may be libertarian Ron Paul types, but most are just disaffected very conservative Republicans.

Remember, most tea partiers have a problem with the gop because it's not far right enough. Chances are they are staunch socons as well.

779 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:54:09pm

re: #778 palomino

Ron Paul is himself a social conservative, too.

780 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:54:13pm

re: #769 Floral Giraffe

It needs to be legal, available, and with only YOUR personal stigmas attached. JMHO.

I can attest to the passions, from personal experience.

You know, I still think about it.

781 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:55:17pm

re: #779 Obdicut

Ron Paul is himself a social conservative, too.

Ron Paul is certifiable. He's a lunatic who whispers as opposed to howls.

782 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:55:48pm

re: #724 b_sharp

LOL.

You writing jokes for Steven Wright?

783 austin_blue  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:57:27pm

re: #770 engineer dog

some questions have no good answers

Here's a good question, then.

When does human life begin?

We've got a good definition of human death. That's how we got around the whole vivisection vs. new transplant technology morality argument. Why not use that?

If it's not human, it can't be homicide.

784 palomino  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:58:05pm

re: #749 researchok

Charles Krauthammer rips 'irresponsible' Palin

Does it seem like Palin takes any of her cues from intellectual pragmatic conservatives like William F Buckley? Or that she shares much of his complex philosophy?

He was a thinker, she's an actress.

785 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:58:22pm

Obdi, see this on Hillary.

Whoever said it was easy?

786 b_sharp  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:59:12pm

re: #784 palomino


He was a thinker, she's an actress stinker.

787 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 5:59:55pm

re: #784 palomino

Does it seem like Palin takes any of her cues from intellectual pragmatic conservatives like William F Buckley? Or that she shares much of his complex philosophy?

He was a thinker, she's an actress.

You give her way too much credit. If she were an actress she would remeber all of her lines.

She is the first major political personality of the 21st century who has been Peter Principled.

788 austin_blue  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:00:24pm

re: #787 researchok

You give her way too much credit. If she were an actress she would remeber all of her lines.

She is the first major political personality of the 21st century who has been Peter Principled.

Upding!

789 palomino  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:00:54pm

re: #779 Obdicut

Ron Paul is himself a social conservative, too.

True that, his allegedly principled libertarianism ends on many social issues. The only difference is that I think he still actually believes in the separation of church and state, which seems increasingly rare these days in the gop.

790 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:00:54pm

re: #788 austin_blue

Upding!

Thanks.

It's been a rough day....

791 Kragar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:01:07pm

re: #784 palomino

Does it seem like Palin takes any of her cues from intellectual pragmatic conservatives like William F Buckley? Or that she shares much of his complex philosophy?

He was a thinker, she's an actress.

Rush announced on his show this morning that Buckley conservatism was dead, and then proceed to dance on its grave.

792 Interesting Times  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:01:09pm

re: #775 negativ

When I was in highschool, being the "leave me alone" type was the best way to ensure that you were never left alone, ever.

It's nearly impossible to overstate the more-or-less religious football culture of the place and time.

Interesting you bring this up, because I thought of the very same thing during the "getting rid of religion would solve so many problems" debates - if humans are capable of elevating people who play with balls to godlike status, well...that pretty much means you could get rid of religion tomorrow and we'd easily find something else to use for the purpose of shaming, attacking, and "othering" those who think differently.

793 ErikJ76  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:02:46pm

re: #744 Dark_Falcon

I hope Castle can close the gap. If he can't, say 'Hello' to Senator Beau Biden. O'Donnell will get run over like a toad under a steamroller.

Beau Biden isn't running. Chris Coons is. (Doesn't change the fact that the teabaggers and Palin have given away a enormously safe GOP win. Even more safer since Beau Biden wasn't running.)

The GOP can now forget winning a 51 seat majority in the Senate. But then in the Senate, 60 votes is the actual majority.

794 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:03:28pm

re: #775 negativ

When I was in highschool, being the "leave me alone" type was the best way to ensure that you were never left alone, ever.

It's nearly impossible to overstate the more-or-less religious football culture of the place and time. Football jocks were invariably revered as heroes. "School spirit" was something you were expected to have in abundance, and what that meant was enthusiasm for the school football team. There sure as shit wasn't a school chess team, or a school programming team, or a school marksmanship team, or a school creative writing team. The jocks were the gladiators who fought every Friday night to establish regional territorial supremacy. Parents were very pleased with this arrangement.

"Bob" help you if you were among those who expressed no interest in trying out for the football team. Trying and failing was shameful enough, but not wanting to try was a sign of serious trouble. Bullying, to the point of injury requiring medical intervention was overlooked.

I've heard many the tale of schools like that. I went to a high school where we didn't have a football team. Mostly because we didn't have a field. All the yards were asphalt. Tackling someone on them would have been attempted murder.

795 tradewind  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:03:43pm

In a somewhat related matter, Planned Parenthood seems to have been ripping off taxpayers in more than one state for millions of dollars, via medicaid fraud.
When they were sued, a lower California court raised the white flag and says ' okay, we know you're doing it, we won't call you on it'. (Besides, the state's rolling in dough. Why worry about fraud? )/
But mirabile dictu! The Ninth Circuit, probably in the throes of a fever dream, reversed and remanded. Maybe they'll actually look into this....
[Link: www.leagle.com...]

796 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:03:44pm

gonna be an interesting next couple of years...
if newt and dick army have their way,we may be seeing the end of the republican party.(wouldn't be the first time a national party collapsed to be replaced by another)or perhaps saner heads will rise and take the party back from the zealots.

797 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:04:09pm

re: #778 palomino

Can we put to rest the absurd notion that tea partiers are not social conservatives?

Here's one of the TP leaders and he's quite clear about it. Some of the TP may be libertarian Ron Paul types, but most are just disaffected very conservative Republicans.

Remember, most tea partiers have a problem with the gop because it's not far right enough. Chances are they are staunch socons as well.

I think Tea Partiers are whatever the hell it pleases them to be. Plus, they're sure that's the only way to be a good American.

798 austin_blue  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:05:11pm

re: #790 researchok

Thanks.

It's been a rough day...

Indeed. You karma has taken a beating.

799 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:05:26pm

re: #797 SanFranciscoZionist

I think Tea Partiers are whatever the hell it pleases them to be. Plus, they're sure that's the only way to be a good American.

And, they speak for God.

800 palomino  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:05:49pm

re: #791 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Rush announced on his show this morning that Buckley conservatism was dead, and then proceed to dance on its grave.

I can only assume that's because Buckley's brand of conservatism was the antithesis of the populist rabble rousing you see today.

He was basically the kind of person--Ivy League educated, erudite, scientific in his analysis--who is largely caricatured today as an elitist liberal.

801 Kragar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:06:34pm

I wont link to his site; but here is the transcript

The Limbaugh Rule: Vote for Most Conservative Candidate in Primary

We still have people who think that professional Washington politicians are the way to fix this, and clearly it isn't. Some of these people are citing the Buckley Rule. Now, I can honestly say that I know what the Buckley Rule is. I can honestly say I knew William F. Buckley and Buckley was a friend of mine. The Buckley Rule is, ostensibly, that you vote for the most electable conservative option against a Democrat in November. You vote for the Republican, slash, conservative who can win. To me, this requires clairvoyance, as is being currently applied in the Mike Castle-Christine O'Donnell race in Delaware, to use an example. The polling data is that Castle will win big and O'Donnell will lose big. If she gets the Republican nomination today, if she wins the election she'll lose big. The polls say she'll lose by 25 points; that Castle will win by 20 points. But who knows this? The election's a long time off. In a year like this, it seems to me that Americanism versus socialism can make up 25 points. Why the hell not try to? Is what I don't understand. Why not try to make up the 25 points?

Okay, let's just assume that it's correct. Let's assume that Christine O'Donnell is down in the polls, Democrat polls, by the way, by 25 points. Okay, fine. If she's the best option we have to stop what's going on once she gets to Washington, why not try to make up the 25 points? We got socialism, communism, liberalism on the ropes. It's too risky? Let me tell you something. It's worth the risk. We're talking about saving the [blank] damn country. What do you mean, too risky?

802 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:06:44pm

re: #791 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Rush announced on his show this morning that Buckley conservatism was dead, and then proceed to dance on its grave.

It's been replaced with...well, this sounds nuts, but you know how they used to say that the problem with liberals was an 'if it feels good, do it' attitude?

That's the new conservative trend. If it releases endorphins, if it makes you happy, if it feels good, go for it. No legal principle or sense of proportion should stop you.

It's not a good trend. If you will permit a rather Puritanical liberal to say so.

803 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:06:49pm

re: #799 researchok

only cause god speaks to them....

804 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:06:56pm

re: #798 austin_blue

Indeed. You karma has taken a beating.

Yup, it sure has.

805 palomino  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:07:09pm

re: #797 SanFranciscoZionist

I think Tea Partiers are whatever the hell it pleases them to be. Plus, they're sure that's the only way to be a good American.

Old white folks who are conservative on everything else are probably SoCons too.

806 engineer cat  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:07:23pm

re: #783 austin_blue

Here's a good question, then.

When does human life begin?

a council of rabbis has looked into this question, and, after considerable debate and soul searching, decided that the fetus may be considered viable at the moment that it graduates from medical school

[runs away and hides under the bed]

807 prairiefire  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:08:06pm

re: #791 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Rush announced on his show this morning that Buckley conservatism was dead, and then proceed to dance on its grave.

That son o' a bitch. Just because he doesn't care what happens to his uterus doesn't mean I'm going to let him dictate what happens to mine.

808 researchok  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:08:08pm

re: #798 austin_blue

Indeed. You karma has taken a beating.

I wonder just how big a beating....

809 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:08:08pm

re: #784 palomino

Does it seem like Palin takes any of her cues from intellectual pragmatic conservatives like William F Buckley? Or that she shares much of his complex philosophy?

He was a thinker, she's an actress.

It's really easy and hip and safe and okay to make fun of Sarah Palin's intellectual prowess, but I sincerely believe that Sarah Palin couldn't bullet-point three ideas of William F. Buckley's if her life depended on it. Her main cues are things that seem to sort of rhyme with other sharp-sounding words she's heard before, like "refudiate" and "lame stream media".

810 Ojoe  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:08:13pm
811 austin_blue  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:09:04pm

re: #791 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Rush announced on his show this morning that Buckley conservatism was dead, and then proceed to dance on its grave.

Well if that's the level of discourse these days, then the sane R's should just pack it in and start the new Whig Party. You simply can't talk to Wingnuts, anymore than you can with Moonbats.

They aren't conceited, they're convinced.

812 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:09:12pm

re: #807 prairiefire

i know rush has boobs,but a uterus too...hmmm

813 Jadespring  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:09:25pm

re: #792 publicityStunted

Interesting you bring this up, because I thought of the very same thing during the "getting rid of religion would solve so many problems" debates - if humans are capable of elevating people who play with balls to godlike status, well...that pretty much means you could get rid of religion tomorrow and we'd easily find something else to use for the purpose of shaming, attacking, and "othering" those who think differently.

When I was in high school the right pair of jeans and the right labels were like a religion with some groups. Didn't have them? Forget about it. Then there was the group where NOT EVER wearing the right jeans or labels was like a religion. There were even icons to go along with it. The 'right label' people had the inside of their lockers plastered with Guess ads and the 'no label' people would have those same ads with jiffy marker x's through them or mustaches.

814 Kragar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:09:54pm

For once, I hope Rush's listeners do exactly what he says. It will crush their chances of winning anything come November.

815 austin_blue  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:10:18pm

re: #806 engineer dog

a council of rabbis has looked into this question, and, after considerable debate and soul searching, decided that the fetus may be considered viable at the moment that it graduates from medical school

[runs away and hides under the bed]

Actually, isn't there something about "quickening" in Torah?

816 Kragar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:11:33pm

re: #815 austin_blue

Actually, isn't there something about "quickening" in Torah?

Highlanders are in the Torah?
//

817 tradewind  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:11:49pm

re: #794 SanFranciscoZionist
Oh good.... I was hoping to run into someone from the Bay area... just wanted to apologize for insensitivity last week after POTUS' speech when I snarked about the gas fire/infrastructure thing. Obviously, it was breaking news and I had no idea at all ( and didn't stop to think) that there was going to be loss of life or that it was such a serious situation. My bad, and I learned a lesson about joking without knowing how a potentially bad situation would unfold. I'm really sorry.

818 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:12:20pm

re: #816 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

there can be only one....

819 austin_blue  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:12:46pm

re: #816 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Highlanders are in the Torah?
//

Nephilim!

820 brookly red  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:12:50pm

re: #817 tradewind

Oh good... I was hoping to run into someone from the Bay area... just wanted to apologize for insensitivity last week after POTUS' speech when I snarked about the gas fire/infrastructure thing. Obviously, it was breaking news and I had no idea at all ( and didn't stop to think) that there was going to be loss of life or that it was such a serious situation. My bad, and I learned a lesson about joking without knowing how a potentially bad situation would unfold. I'm really sorry.

I stepped in that pile too...

821 webevintage  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:13:08pm

hahahahahaha

Looks like Christine O’Donnell won in Delaware....

822 engineer cat  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:13:11pm

re: #815 austin_blue

Actually, isn't there something about "quickening" in Torah?

i believe you're right. don't have the passage to hand

823 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:13:48pm
824 palomino  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:14:38pm

re: #787 researchok

You give her way too much credit. If she were an actress she would remeber all of her lines.

She is the first major political personality of the 21st century who has been Peter Principled.

True, even the dumbest of actresses usually get by without writing shit on the palms of their hands.

825 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:15:09pm

re: #813 Jadespring

When I was in high school the right pair of jeans and the right labels were like a religion with some groups. Didn't have them? Forget about it. Then there was the group where NOT EVER wearing the right jeans or labels was like a religion. There were even icons to go along with it. The 'right label' people had the inside of their lockers plastered with Guess ads and the 'no label' people would have those same ads with jiffy marker x's through them or mustaches.

That's the truth..I grew up in Napa Valley..We had more snobs per square foot than anyone on Earth..Because of that..The rich kids didn't control the hallways.. It took a hell of a lot more than being a rich kid to not get your ass kicked in Napa..Nobody really cared how rich your folks were or what clothes you wore..

826 Interesting Times  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:15:24pm

re: #821 webevintage

hahahahahaha

Looks like Christine O’Donnell won in Delaware...

Yup, the anti-masturbation candidate won hands down.

/wait, what?

827 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:15:53pm

re: #815 austin_blue

Actually, isn't there something about "quickening" in Torah?

That was used as an indicator for a long time, but it's very subjective.

I don't know about Torah, but it's definitely referred to in the Gospels.

828 prairiefire  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:16:29pm

Round them up!! Let's spend some money framing the issues and getting Democrats elected.

829 prairiefire  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:17:01pm

re: #827 SanFranciscoZionist

That was used as an indicator for a long time, but it's very subjective.

I don't know about Torah, but it's definitely referred to in the Gospels.

Also, Colonial America.

830 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:17:20pm

re: #817 tradewind

Oh good... I was hoping to run into someone from the Bay area... just wanted to apologize for insensitivity last week after POTUS' speech when I snarked about the gas fire/infrastructure thing. Obviously, it was breaking news and I had no idea at all ( and didn't stop to think) that there was going to be loss of life or that it was such a serious situation. My bad, and I learned a lesson about joking without knowing how a potentially bad situation would unfold. I'm really sorry.

Thanks, that is appreciated, although I didn't see the original comments. Even as close as I am, it took some time to realize what was unfolding. Terrible thing to happen.

831 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:17:51pm

re: #819 austin_blue

Nephilim!

Aaaaah! Aaaahh! (Some of the stuff about the Nephilim on the...more off-beat...Christian sites out there is something to behold.)

832 Kragar  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:18:09pm

Well, thats one seat the GOP has lost come November.

833 palomino  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:18:47pm

re: #810 Ojoe

Evening Towercam, showing all the little folds in the mountains. Nobody ever goes in most of the canyons you see here.

San Gabriel Mountains of California, Pacific time zone.

Gloaming later.

You live in LA? I've been here 20 years and only been to Griffith Observatory once. Makes me feel kinda lame.

There are also some similarly great views from Runyan Canyon, which has a long hiking trail. If you haven't been, go on a clear day.

834 Jadespring  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:18:48pm

re: #821 webevintage

hahahahahaha

Looks like Christine O’Donnell won in Delaware...

I've been away from the net for a while and am still trying to catch up and get things straight. She's the kookier candidate choice then?

And what does this likely mean for the election now?

835 tradewind  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:19:04pm

re: #820 brookly red
I felt awful after I found out what was really
unfolding, and it was a lesson .
I really wasn't even paying attention to the circumstances of the fire when I reacted to that whole bag- of -Oprah- speech the President had just given, and it was a careless thing to do.

836 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:19:24pm

re: #829 prairiefire

Also, Colonial America.

All through the Middle Ages as well. It's something the mom can check for herself, and it's detectable without sophisticated medical equipment.

837 Jadespring  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:22:17pm

re: #834 Jadespring

Oh. Just read the anti-masturbation article that was posted. It answered my questions.....

838 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:22:36pm

re: #821 webevintage

hahahahahaha

Looks like Christine O’Donnell won in Delaware...

Well, apparently we're as doomed as I suspected.

I guess I'd better figure out a way to leave behind evidence that my dog is a Christian dog, so they don't summarily execute him after he invariably barks and gives away my hiding spot.

839 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:26:01pm

re: #834 Jadespring

I've been away from the net for a while and am still trying to catch up and get things straight. She's the kookier candidate choice then?

And what does this likely mean for the election now?

Listen:
[Link: www.wgmd.com...]

The interviewer was a former supporter, and clearly wanted to strangle both her and himself less than halfway through the interview.

Try to imagine circumstances under which you would voluntarily vote for that.

840 tradewind  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:27:25pm

re: #830 SanFranciscoZionist
Oh, the comment would have been nothing if there had just been a routine fire without all the loss of life and property. I had no clue and I was horrified.
Anyway, good lesson for me, but so sad for the affected folks.

841 sagehen  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:32:07pm

re: #806 engineer dog

a council of rabbis has looked into this question, and, after considerable debate and soul searching, decided that the fetus may be considered viable at the moment that it graduates from medical school

[runs away and hides under the bed]


Old Jewish Lady #1: "Oh, what beautiful grandchildren. How old are they?"
Old Jewish Lady #2: "The doctor is 3, the lawyer is 5."

842 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:35:13pm

re: #704 Obdicut

I believe there need to be fewer unwanted pregnancies.

I don't see the abortions as the problem. I see the unwanted pregnancies as the problem. Abortions are a symptom of the problem.

And that implies easily available birth control, and widespread factual sex education, for teenagers and young adults. Abstinence "education" doesn't work. You can't fight millions of years of evolution. Teenagers are wired to screw like rabbits. You might be able to convince some of them to abstain, but not most of them.

Unfortunately, efforts to make birth control widely and freely available to the young (those most likely to have unwanted pregnancies) have been stridently opposed by socons, who now mostly control the GOP.

The real solution to unwanted pregnancies requires that we, as a nation, get over our hang-ups about sex and talk to our kids honestly about it. I don't see that happening any time soon. Kids are going to screw. That's the bottom line. Either they are doing so safely, or not. It's our responsibility to see to it that they know what risks they take, and how to manage them effectively.

843 calochortus  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:51:03pm

re: #835 tradewind

An easy thing to do, and while I assumed it was something like that, it is thoughtful of you to set the record straight. I, myself, read what appeared to be a reputable report of someone using a backhoe and reported it here. Turns out the backhoe was maybe 1/2 a mile away... Not a likely cause.

844 Lidane  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:52:04pm

re: #842 Fozzie Bear

The real solution to unwanted pregnancies requires that we, as a nation, get over our hang-ups about sex and talk to our kids honestly about it. I don't see that happening any time soon.

Pfft. We'll be lucky if that ever happens. Remember-- this country was first settled by a bunch of people who came here because the churches of the time weren't fundamentalist enough to meet their standards.

This country has had a massive case of cognitive dissonance about sex ever since. We love it and can't get enough of it, but no one wants to admit to it, and some want to treat it as evil, and as some great sin to be endured just for the sake of children, but never, ever enjoyed for any reason at all. It's ridiculous.

845 JoyousMN  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 6:57:14pm

re: #750 austin_blue

When was the last time someone won an argument about abortion?

Austin, I hear you. But for some of us (50ish% of the population) it's not an abstract issue. And it's one we've been forced to defend. If we're silent then bad things can happen. So it's important to discuss, even though it feels like the never ending battle.

If you're a woman this is a really important, basic right. There's just no way around that. So many or the rights we depend on flow from reproductive choice-not just abortion, but including it.

846 ihateronpaul  Tue, Sep 14, 2010 8:00:14pm

Dick Armey can say whatever he wants, but the fact of the matter is the coming "republican tidal wave" is strictly as a result of financial reasons. They aren't being voted in on social issues (thank fucking god)

847 ClaudeMonet  Wed, Sep 15, 2010 12:50:28am

re: #801 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I wont link to his site; but here is the transcript

The Limbaugh Rule: Vote for Most Conservative Candidate in Primary

Rush may say that Buckley was a friend of his, but if he were alive I doubt that WFB would say that Rush is any friend of his.

I disagreed with Buckley much more than I agreed with him, but he was always worth hearing or reading, and I always liked how he reasoned. I could see how everything connected.

Today's so-called conservatives? Feh. They wouldn't know logic and reason if they stood in front and screamed, "WE ARE LOGIC AND REASON. TRY US!!" They know what they know because it's the Revealed Truth, something they just Know. Like their less harmless and presumably less numerous counterparts on the Left, they never let facts stand in the way of a firmly held opinion.


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