Pope Benedict’s Historical Revisionism

Religion • Views: 5,627

Visiting Britain, Pope Benedict frankly admitted something that’s been nauseatingly obvious for many years, that the Catholic Church hasn’t acted “swiftly” in cases of child abuse.

Another big point of his speech, though, was an attack on secularism and atheism, hauling out the canard that the Nazis were “atheists:” Pope Benedict XVI goes to war with ‘atheist extremism’.

“Even in our own lifetime, we can recall how Britain and her leaders stood against a Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God from society and denied our common humanity to many, especially the Jews, who were thought unfit to live,” he said.

“I also recall the regime’s attitude to Christian pastors and religious people who spoke the truth in love, opposed the Nazis and paid for that opposition with their lives.

“As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the 20th century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society …”

In the case of the Third Reich, this is a huge revision of history. In fact, Adolf Hitler was opposed to state atheism, and often used Christian religious symbology in his speeches. And Pope Benedict seems to have forgotten Germany and Europe’s long, sordid tradition of Christian antisemitism — a tradition that was one of the dark roots of the Holocaust, and a tradition in which the Catholic Church was arguably one of the worst offenders.

A case could be made that Pope Benedict’s description of this disastrous chapter of history is exactly opposite to the truth — that it was far more enabled by European religious tradition than by the Pope’s atheist boogeyman.

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160 comments
1 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:36:36pm

But they were not really Christians.
//

2 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:37:54pm

Who was in a better position to know?

3 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:39:21pm

Look over here!!! (shakes something shiny)

4 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:40:56pm

Let me just quote from Hilter (gag):


The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God’s will, and actually fulfill God’s will, and not let God’s word be desecrated. For God’s will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord’s creation, the divine will.


and:

“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord


Not an atheist. An egomaniac who thought he was doing the work of God.

5 butterick  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:41:48pm

The Nazis were atheists? Is that why they had “gott mit uns” on their belt buckles?

6 Jack Fate  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:42:02pm

From the former member of Hitler youth too. Where is his irony meter?

7 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:42:22pm

All one has to do is watch anything on the history channel about Hitler to learn about the religious underpinnings of the whole Nazi movement.

8 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:42:50pm

re: #6 Jack Fate

From the former member of Hitler youth too. Where is his irony meter?

In all fairness, it was join or die.

9 Petero1818  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:43:32pm

re: #6 Jack Fate

From the former member of Hitler youth too. Where is his irony meter?

That was before he found religion// Like when Chrintine O’Donnell used to have sex.

10 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:44:11pm

re: #8 Cannadian Club Akbar

In all fairness, it was join or die.

True enough, but he could shut up about it.

11 Varek Raith  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:45:12pm

re: #9 Petero1818

That was before he found religion// Like when Chrintine O’Donnell used to have sex.

Ouch!

12 HAL2010  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:45:15pm

That’s rich coming from a pope who was a member of the Hitler Youth …

13 elizajane  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:45:25pm

The only bizarre thing about this is that it’s being peddled by a man who without a doubt knows it isn’t true.

Otherwise it sounds like what passes for history and historical analogy here in America.

It’s of a piece with all the “Fascists were liberals” and “Obama is a communist Nazi” stuff. It lumps together the bogeymen of the mid-20th century as if they were the same, rather than opposites, because it takes too much thinking to figure out how we could possibly have been on the Godless Communists’ (Left) side against a “Religious Right” enemy. So the Right must really be Left, and everybody who is our enemy is Godless.

Expect to hear Beck quoting the Pope on this any day now.

14 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:45:42pm

re: #10 Decatur Deb

True enough, but he could shut up about it.

He could not lie about it and try to shift the blame from the German people and the long, long tradition of antisemitism onto atheism.

Seriously, this is a ‘what the fuck’ moment. This is a throwback pope.

15 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:45:51pm

The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God’s will, and actually fulfill God’s will, and not let God’s word be desecrated. For God’s will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord’s creation, the divine will.[16] (A. Hitler - Mein Kampf)

16 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:45:57pm

2 words; Deutsche Christen

17 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:46:30pm

re: #10 Decatur Deb

True enough, but he could shut up about it.

But if he keeps telling this version, it’ll be true. Isn’t that how truth works?

/

18 Randall Gross  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:46:51pm

Should someone who was formerly a Nazi youth himself and who wore a “Got Mit Uns” beltbuckle in the Wehrmacht be making this statement? Nobody’s made much of that, but there it is - it’s truth.

19 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:47:08pm

re: #17 MrSilverDragon

But if he keeps telling this version, it’ll be true. Isn’t that how truth works?

/

I am so good looking.
/

20 darthstar  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:47:44pm

re: #15 Walter L. Newton

I don’t know if it’s such a good idea to quote Hitler…unless you plan on explaining your point in doing so.

21 Varek Raith  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:47:55pm

re: #19 Cannadian Club Akbar

I am so good looking.
/

Your sarc tag is jinxing it.

22 HAL2010  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:48:12pm

re: #21 Varek Raith

Your sarc tag is jinxing it.

Or is it …

23 Varek Raith  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:48:23pm

re: #20 darthstar

I don’t know if it’s such a good idea to quote Hitler…unless you plan on explaining your point in doing so.

Er, that should be obvious?

24 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:48:29pm

re: #21 Varek Raith

Your sarc tag is jinxing it.

So is my face.
/

25 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:48:34pm

re: #22 HAL2010

Or is it …

*cue dramatic music*

26 HAL2010  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:49:02pm

re: #25 MrSilverDragon

*cue dramatic music*

27 Jack Fate  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:49:34pm

re: #20 darthstar

I don’t know if it’s such a good idea to quote Hitler…unless you plan on explaining your point in doing so.

The dots are all there. Connect them.

28 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:49:38pm

re: #26 HAL2010

[Video]

That never gets old.

29 darthstar  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:50:34pm

re: #23 Varek Raith

Er, that should be obvious?

re: #27 Jack Fate

The dots are all there. Connect them.

Yep…I see it now…Pope Benny was denying Hitler’s Xianity…

Sorry, Walter. As you were.

30 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:50:48pm

re: #20 darthstar

I don’t know if it’s such a good idea to quote Hitler…unless you plan on explaining your point in doing so.

Hmmm… thread is on the subject of Hilter and the Pope suggesting that he was an atheist… I clip and paste a paragraph from Mein Kampf where Hitler uses the word “god” one time, “lord” one time and “god’s will” three times and you think a point needs to be explained.

31 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:50:51pm

Nazism wasn’t tied to any religion (or lack thereof) in particular. Atheists, Catholics, Pagan, Protestants; all were tied up in Hitler’s deathly plans. Whatever religious propaganda worked to get a German (or sympathizer) in a army uniform or black shirt, was employed by the Nazis. Including Catholics!

This Pope is a greater fool than I had realized.

32 darthstar  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:51:17pm

re: #30 Walter L. Newton

See my 29

33 Varek Raith  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:51:24pm

re: #28 Cannadian Club Akbar

That never gets old.

34 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:51:32pm

re: #27 Jack Fate

The dots are all there. Connect them.

Hrmm… all I got was a drawing of a giraffe. Who’s got crayons?

35 HAL2010  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:51:34pm

re: #28 Cannadian Club Akbar

Sometimes I can spend all Caturday just watching videos of Maru the cat.

36 Bubblehead II  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:51:43pm

re: #20 darthstar

Seems pretty obvious to me.

37 darthstar  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:51:56pm

re: #36 Bubblehead II

Seems pretty obvious to me.

Yes, yes…

38 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:52:02pm

re: #27 Jack Fate

The dots are all there. Connect them.

Well, I already quoted it in post #4, so Walter’s just late to the party.

39 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:52:29pm

re: #32 darthstar

See my 29

Sorry… I was typing when you posted your permission for to me to continue as I was.

40 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:52:31pm

re: #5 butterick

The Nazis were atheists? Is that why they had “gott mit uns” on their belt buckles?

Hermann Gott. He never went home, that dude was always around!!

41 researchok  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:52:36pm

This post is right on the money.

The Catholic Church has done much to be proud of and has done much to be ashamed of. All the good things they have done (and they are many) however, does not give them the right to rewrite history.

The Church today is not the same church it was. They have evolved and grown and will continue to do so. Nevertheless, the shortest distance between two points is the proverbial straight line.

Acknowledge the problems, fix them and make sure the institutional culture is such that it will not tolerate or hide those problems any longer.

That isn’t done by rewriting history. A Church that claims Maximilian Kolbe should have no need to do that.

42 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:52:58pm

re: #38 Obdicut

Well, I already quoted it in post #4, so Walter’s just late to the party.

Touche’.

43 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:53:40pm

re: #8 Cannadian Club Akbar

In all fairness, it was join or die.

True. But he should know better than anyone what they were about, and not be playing this game.

44 darthstar  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:54:05pm

re: #38 Obdicut

Well, I already quoted it in post #4, so Walter’s just late to the party.

As was I, apparently.

45 Bubblehead II  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:54:07pm

re: #37 darthstar

Sorry, running behind on the thread.

46 brookly red  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:54:19pm

re: #38 Obdicut

Well, I already quoted it in post #4, so Walter’s just late to the party.

but he did bring beer…

47 darthstar  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:54:29pm

re: #45 Bubblehead II

Sorry, running behind on the thread.

Me too…what was the question?
/

48 zora  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:55:00pm

re: #31 Surabaya Stew

This Pope is a greater fool tool than I had realized.

49 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:55:01pm

re: #43 SanFranciscoZionist

True. But he should know better than anyone what they were about, and not be playing this game.

Don’t get me wrong, I agree with you and Jack Fate.

50 Varek Raith  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:55:23pm

re: #43 SanFranciscoZionist

True. But he should know better than anyone what they were about, and not be playing this game.

This confuses me.
Am I a Nazi?
A Stalinist?
A Maoist?
A Satanist?
/

51 engineer cat  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:55:24pm

re: #13 elizajane


It’s of a piece with all the “Fascists were liberals” and “Obama is a communist Nazi” stuff. It lumps together the bogeymen of the mid-20th century as if they were the same

newspeak is being accomplished by putting the dictionary in the blender

52 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:56:29pm

re: #50 Varek Raith

This confuses me.
Am I a Nazi?
A Stalinist?
A Maoist?
A Satanist?
/

If you’re a Satanist you get all the chicks.
/

53 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:56:46pm

re: #41 researchok

This post is right on the money.

The Catholic Church has done much to be proud of and has done much to be ashamed of. All the good things they have done (and they are many) however, does not give them the right to rewrite history.

The Church today is not the same church it was. They have evolved and grown and will continue to do so. Nevertheless, the shortest distance between two points is the proverbial straight line.

Acknowledge the problems, fix them and make sure the institutional culture is such that it will not tolerate or hide those problems any longer.

That isn’t done by rewriting history. A Church that claims Maximilian Kolbe should have no need to do that.

The Catholic Church in particular, and Christianity in general has been the perpetrators of almost 2000 years of anti-Jewish rhetoric, with WWII being the a high spot in their constant tearing down of the Jewish race.

That alone overshadows ANY GOOD that the Christian religion can try to lay claim to.

Don’t make me puke.

54 Varek Raith  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:57:05pm

re: #52 Cannadian Club Akbar

If you’re a Satanist you get all the chicks.
/

Heil Satan, Comrade Mao!
/

55 Intenzity  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:57:53pm

Gee, the church probably shouldn’t have helped Mengele and Eichman escape from Europe after the war then if the Nazi’s were such crap, huh, Benedict.

Some samples, easily found on the internet:

[Link: www.calvin.edu…]

Image: 300.jpg

56 Varek Raith  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:58:23pm

National Weather Service issues a tornado warning for Queens and Brooklyn, New York.

57 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:58:47pm

It doesn’t excuse this cynical revisionism, but there is an old Catholic meme called “practical atheism”. It means that someone who claims belief but behaves absolutely as though there were no god is an atheist. Sort of a theological version of “no true Scotsman”.

58 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:59:10pm

re: #56 Varek Raith

National Weather Service issues a tornado warning for Queens and Brooklyn, New York.

Brookly, quick, order a pizza!!
/

59 HAL2010  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 2:59:28pm

re: #52 Cannadian Club Akbar

If you’re a Satanist you get all the chicks.
/

Yeah sure, all the satanist chicks. And trust me, they dont bother about hygiene. Not. Worth. It.

60 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:00:13pm

Benedict does this. He actually pissed me off when he gave that speech that so infuriated some Muslims, about the Byzantine emperor. Really? We’re going to make a speech that uses the words of a long-dead Byzantine to suggest that Christianity does not convert by the sword? THAT WOULD SURPRISE A LOT OF PEOPLE, MR. RATZINGER.

It’s fake history. Benedict’s sounds less stupid than Beck’s because he IS less stupid, and also much, much better educated, but it’s still fake history.

61 HoosierHoops  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:00:43pm

re: #58 Cannadian Club Akbar

Brookly, quick, order a pizza!!
/

Don’t forget to order Pineapples on the pizza to save your soul!
/

62 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:01:15pm

re: #61 HoosierHoops

Don’t forget to order Pineapples on the pizza to save your soul!
/

Infidel.

63 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:01:34pm

re: #56 Varek Raith

what did Brooklyn and Queens do to piss off god now?

//

64 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:01:35pm

re: #61 HoosierHoops

Don’t forget to order Pineapples on the pizza to save your soul!
/

DAMN YOU HOOPS!! YOU ARE NOT GONNA SUCK ME IN TO THIS CONVERSATION!!

65 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:02:02pm

re: #63 Dreggas

what did Brooklyn and Queens do to piss off god now?

//

Full of wankers.

66 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:03:03pm

re: #63 Dreggas

what did Brooklyn and Queens do to piss off god now?

//

His aim and timing are off, the targets were there last weekend.

67 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:03:06pm

re: #57 Decatur Deb

It doesn’t excuse this cynical revisionism, but there is an old Catholic meme called “practical atheism”. It means that someone who claims belief but behaves absolutely as though there were no god is an atheist. Sort of a theological version of “no true Scotsman”.

And it’s a fair point, except that the atheists referenced here don’t seem to be false Christians, but rather overt atheists who want to ‘exclude God from public life’. He ain’t talking about the professing Christian who proves his lack of faith by becoming a Nazi here, he’s talking about those goddamn Commies. Who were, in fact, awful, but also became a convenient thing to point at instead of the Fascists, who were closer to home for the Church.

Also lasted longer…there’s a lot at work here.

68 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:03:40pm

re: #57 Decatur Deb

It doesn’t excuse this cynical revisionism, but there is an old Catholic meme called “practical atheism”. It means that someone who claims belief but behaves absolutely as though there were no god is an atheist. Sort of a theological version of “no true Scotsman”.


See my #1

69 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:04:49pm

re: #67 SanFranciscoZionist

And it’s a fair point, except that the atheists referenced here don’t seem to be false Christians, but rather overt atheists who want to ‘exclude God from public life’. He ain’t talking about the professing Christian who proves his lack of faith by becoming a Nazi here, he’s talking about those goddamn Commies. Who were, in fact, awful, but also became a convenient thing to point at instead of the Fascists, who were closer to home for the Church.

Also lasted longer…there’s a lot at work here.

Oh yeah, and most of it is Papal Bull.

70 deranged cat  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:06:54pm

hahahahaha…
WATCH: Christine O’Donnell’s Masturbation Stance: [Link: bit.ly…]

71 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:07:19pm

I wish I could come up with something brilliant to say about this, but the Holocaust has always been so distressing to me that WWII is not one of my strong points.

It does appear that he is the wrong person to be talking about this.

What’s so wrong with saying you were wrong?

Anyway, I do know for sure that I like pineapple on my pizza. I also like pineapple on my Mongolian grill, although I am very certain that the ancient Mongolians did not have pineapples.

72 brookly red  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:07:43pm

re: #63 Dreggas

what did Brooklyn and Queens do to piss off god now?

//

Bloomberg…

73 darthstar  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:08:09pm

re: #70 deranged cat

hahahahaha…
WATCH: Christine O’Donnell’s Masturbation Stance: [Link: bit.ly…]

Is she trying to get a leg up on her competition?

74 Bubblehead II  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:08:17pm

The British Humanist Association isn’t to happy with him either.

A statement from the British Humanist Association said the Pope’s remarks were “surreal”.

It said: “The notion that it was the atheism of Nazis that led to their extremist and hateful views or that it somehow fuels intolerance in Britain today is a terrible libel against those who do not believe in God.

“The notion that it is non-religious people in the UK today who want to force their views on others, coming from a man whose organisation exerts itself internationally to impose its narrow and exclusive form of morality and undermine the human rights of women, children, gay people and many others, is surreal.”

75 brookly red  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:09:17pm

re: #61 HoosierHoops

Don’t forget to order Pineapples on the pizza to save your soul!
/

/may vengeful puss drop from both your eyes…

76 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:09:21pm

re: #73 darthstar

Is she trying to get a leg up on her competition?

This is just going to go on an on an on.

77 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:10:17pm

Popes and the GOP, using the same techniques

“Oh sure, so we have these institutional horrors we’ve perpetuated, we’re screwing up, we’re all really sorr-LOOK ATHIEST NAZIS BOOGA BOGGA MUMBO JUMBO HRLGLBLRGLGB”

78 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:10:23pm

re: #75 brookly red

/may vengeful puss drop from both your eyes…

The only people who put pineapple on pizza are commies and Raider fans.
//

79 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:11:29pm

re: #78 Cannadian Club Akbar

The only people who put pineapple on pizza are commies and Raider fans.
//

Makes sense, I’m a commie

I also like peanut sauce on Thai pizza

California style rules

80 Political Atheist  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:11:57pm

re: #14 Obdicut

Seriously, this is a ‘what the fuck’ moment. This is a throwback pope.

Exactly.

We have seen killers of every stripe. For one group like a religion to blame a lack of religion for that kind of death and destruction ignores the realities. Forces both wildly fundamentalist and quite secular to the point of atheism have been responsible for exactly that.

As an aside-To my personal annoyance he ignored the truly murderous communist Chinese programs. That was clearly murderous on a genocidal scale (millions) and declared atheist. Or Stalin of course.

Blaming religion or secularism for genocide or war is beside the point/truth. The bottom line is individuals who had the power chose to use it in that fashion. For reasons all over the map, literally

81 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:12:03pm

re: #14 Obdicut

He could not lie about it and try to shift the blame from the German people and the long, long tradition of antisemitism onto atheism.

Seriously, this is a ‘what the fuck’ moment. This is a throwback pope.

I’m starting a band called The Throwback Popes

82 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:12:36pm

re: #79 WindUpBird

Makes sense, I’m a commie

I also like peanut sauce on Thai pizza

California style rules

I’m cool with that. But you better not be a Raiders fan.
/

83 brookly red  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:12:41pm

re: #78 Cannadian Club Akbar

The only people who put pineapple on pizza are commies and Raider fans.
//

heh, just watch what happens if I suggest pineapple on his tacos…

84 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:13:33pm

re: #78 Cannadian Club Akbar

The only people who put pineapple on pizza are commies and Raider fans.
//

Communists have been percieved to keep loathsome company in the past - but i will not sit here and let my fellow travellers be slandered in such a way.
Raiders fans indeed

85 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:13:52pm

re: #82 Cannadian Club Akbar

I’m cool with that. But you better not be a Raiders fan.
/

I am totally not (I could not care less about football, I barely have the energy to follow television I care very deeply about) though I think their costumes are hilarious :D SHIELD HEAD

86 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:14:13pm

re: #83 brookly red

heh, just watch what happens if I suggest pineapple on his tacos…

I like that too
Pineapple salsa is win

87 Kronocide  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:14:16pm

I’m about sick and tired of Nazi comparisons based on irrationality and ignorance. If Godwin were dead he’d be turning in his grave many times faster than Orwell.

88 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:15:12pm

re: #86 WindUpBird

I like that too
Pineapple salsa is win

Mango salsa.
Black bean salsa.
Win.

89 Kronocide  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:15:30pm

re: #79 WindUpBird

Makes sense, I’m a commie

I also like peanut sauce on Thai pizza

California style rules

That reminds me: Thursdays is Thai Chix pizza special at the Kona Brewing Company. Two slices and a few pints of porter melt my problems away.

90 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:15:54pm

re: #88 Cannadian Club Akbar

Mango salsa.
Black bean salsa.
Win.

I can get with that!

91 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:16:44pm

re: #89 BigPapa

That reminds me: Thursdays is Thai Chix pizza special at the Kona Brewing Company. Two slices and a few pints of porter melt my problems away.


Yum *_*

92 brookly red  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:16:57pm

re: #89 BigPapa

That reminds me: Thursdays is Thai Chix pizza special at the Kona Brewing Company. Two slices and a few pints of porter melt my problems away.

please tell me you meant pizza Thai chix…

93 Political Atheist  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:16:58pm
94 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:17:35pm

re: #90 WindUpBird

I can get with that!

Pineapple salsa in a ham and swiss wrap would actually work. Thanks.

95 Four More Tears  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:17:45pm

re: #93 Rightwingconspirator

Wow, that’s quite a storm

Yeah, lots of thunder 15-20 minutes ago. Gone now.

96 HoosierHoops  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:17:47pm

re: #78 Cannadian Club Akbar

The only people who put pineapple on pizza are commies and Raider fans.
//

Charles hates pineapple on Pizza also.. I love veggie with pineapple pizzas..
I hate the greatest Club today in the history of man..Huge! One quarter was a normal size sandwich..I nixed the bacon and ham of course but it was so fat you could not just take a bite…too big…
/T-minus 14 hours till the moving truck arrives…I am now in the eye of the storm lizards

97 Varek Raith  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:17:52pm

re: #93 Rightwingconspirator

Wow, that’s quite a storm

Looking like a bow echo.

98 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:18:25pm

re: #81 WindUpBird

I’m starting a band called The Throwback Popes

Can I be your keyboard player?

99 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:18:56pm

re: #96 HoosierHoops

Luck be upon you.

100 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:20:03pm

re: #96 HoosierHoops

Charles hates pineapple on Pizza also.. I love veggie with pineapple pizzas..
I hate the greatest Club today in the history of man..Huge! One quarter was a normal size sandwich..I nixed the bacon and ham of course but it was so fat you could not just take a bite…too big…
/T-minus 14 hours till the moving truck arrives…I am now in the eye of the storm lizards

I remember having pizza ananas in N. Italy, so I googled for authenticity. All the recipes are in German or Urdu. The only italian quote was:

“dio santo che schifo”.

101 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:20:57pm

re: #81 WindUpBird

I’m starting a band called The Throwback Popes

Gregorian chant & Klezmer fusion?

102 HoosierHoops  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:20:57pm

re: #99 Cannadian Club Akbar

Luck be upon you.

Thanks bro…I’ll be posting from a hotel room tomorrow…

103 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:22:03pm

We have a book report due Monday.

The kids are in despair.

So am I. I gave them the assignment two weeks ago. I gave them the world’s most detailed directions. All it is is a mobile, based on a book they’ve read and like. Minimum three hangy things, one about characters, one about setting, one about conflict.

We went over the whole thing in class. I drew pictures on the board.

I’m not gonna get them. Or they’re going to be posters. Or they’re gonna be four-page written reports.

104 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:22:03pm

BBL. Gotta get stuff done. (I slept until 3 this afternoon!!)

105 Jack Burton  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:22:37pm

re: #71 EmmmieG

Anyway, I do know for sure that I like pineapple on my pizza. I also like pineapple on my Mongolian grill, although I am very certain that the ancient Mongolians did not have pineapples.

Two Counts of Blasphemy!

//

106 HoosierHoops  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:29:15pm

re: #103 SanFranciscoZionist

We have a book report due Monday.

The kids are in despair.

So am I. I gave them the assignment two weeks ago. I gave them the world’s most detailed directions. All it is is a mobile, based on a book they’ve read and like. Minimum three hangy things, one about characters, one about setting, one about conflict.

We went over the whole thing in class. I drew pictures on the board.

I’m not gonna get them. Or they’re going to be posters. Or they’re gonna be four-page written reports.

Poor kids…
I think the easiest thing in school was a book report..You read the book..You write a few pages about what you read..Not Rocket Science…
Now when we got to slip and flip complex fractions I was pissed off…That is hard..Not reading an effen book for homework…
I hope they all flunk! *wink*
Hi you!

107 HappyWarrior  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:30:35pm

I’m far from anti-Catholic in my views and mindset but it is blatant revisionism of Pope Benedict to blame the Nazi’s evil on Atheism and ignore as Charles and many other people have pointed out the strong tradition of Christian anti-semitism in Europe. Plus let’s not forget people like Bishop Hudal who helped Nazis escape in to South America after the war. If we can remember and celebrate people like Maximillian Kolbe then we should be able to remember the not so pleasant history as well.

108 lostlakehiker  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:38:31pm

re: #107 HappyWarrior

I’m far from anti-Catholic in my views and mindset but it is blatant revisionism of Pope Benedict to blame the Nazi’s evil on Atheism and ignore as Charles and many other people have pointed out the strong tradition of Christian anti-semitism in Europe. Plus let’s not forget people like Bishop Hudal who helped Nazis escape in to South America after the war. If we can remember and celebrate people like Maximillian Kolbe then we should be able to remember the not so pleasant history as well.

It should not be forgotten either that the SS had to go to conscription in part because priests were telling their congregants that joining the SS was a ticket to hell.

At least one of the resistance groups in Germany was Catholic.

Italy, with Vatican City a neighborhood in Rome, gave scant cooperation to Hitler’s holocaust, and Jews in Italy were far more likely to survive the war than Jews from Poland or Russia.

Now Poland is Catholic, but still, Italy was the center of Catholicism but not ground zero for the holocaust.

Other wars have had explicit and massive support from Christian clergy and laiety—-for instance, the North’s side in the civil war. The Nazis enjoyed no such endorsement.

109 HappyWarrior  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:43:35pm

re: #108 lostlakehiker

It should not be forgotten either that the SS had to go to conscription in part because priests were telling their congregants that joining the SS was a ticket to hell.

At least one of the resistance groups in Germany was Catholic.

Italy, with Vatican City a neighborhood in Rome, gave scant cooperation to Hitler’s holocaust, and Jews in Italy were far more likely to survive the war than Jews from Poland or Russia.

Now Poland is Catholic, but still, Italy was the center of Catholicism but not ground zero for the holocaust.

Other wars have had explicit and massive support from Christian clergy and laiety—-for instance, the North’s side in the civil war. The Nazis enjoyed no such endorsement.

Oh no doubt about it, I am just suggesting that we shouldn’t act like atheism is what caused the Nazis rise and atheism only. There were a ton of Catholics and I should add in my own family in Europe that resisted the Nazis. We shoiuld remember the history- good and bad here. The Catholic Church like many organizations and groups of people during the war had moments of extreme courage i.e. the aforementioned Father Kolbe who has since been canonized and extreme evil i.e. the Utashe regime in Croatia who killed countless Serbs and Jews because they were Orthodox and Jewish.

110 brownbagj  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 3:56:26pm

re: #103 SanFranciscoZionist

We have a book report due Monday.

The kids are in despair.

So am I. I gave them the assignment two weeks ago. I gave them the world’s most detailed directions. All it is is a mobile, based on a book they’ve read and like. Minimum three hangy things, one about characters, one about setting, one about conflict.

We went over the whole thing in class. I drew pictures on the board.

I’m not gonna get them. Or they’re going to be posters. Or they’re gonna be four-page written reports.

Well, are they atheists or Nazis? Wondering who to blame…

//

111 Ojoe  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 4:06:23pm

The nazis were big into the occult.

There is a hair raising book about it, titled “The Occult & the Third Reich.”

112 Gus  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 4:07:55pm

Thanks for posting this Charles.

In the future I will no longer be taking an impartial or fair view of Ratzinger.

113 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 4:20:44pm

re: #111 Ojoe

The nazis were big into the occult.

There is a hair raising book about it, titled “The Occult & the Third Reich.”

Yeah, when they weren’t out trying to find the Arc of the Covenant or the Holy Grail.

(Sorry, couldn’t resist.)

114 Steve Dutch  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 4:39:32pm

There’s enough to go around here. The Catholic Church has plenty to be ashamed of, but equally important in shaping German anti-Semitism was Martin Luther’s vicious attacks on the Jews. What the Nazis tried to create was a weird amalgamation of neo-paganism with Christianity, and of course as Ojoe (111) noted, lots of Nazi leaders were heavily into the occult. Raiders of the Lost Ark gives us more accurate history on this score than the Pope.

For a while it seemed like Ratzinger was starting out to be more open-minded than his critics feared, but lately he hasn’t missed an opportunity to utter wackazoid comments.

115 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 4:56:10pm

*belches*

Now all he has to do is find the missing link between the Evil Atheist Conspiracy and the Illuminati and we can all be saved from ourselves.

116 b_sharp  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 5:12:46pm

re: #14 Obdicut

He could not lie about it and try to shift the blame from the German people and the long, long tradition of antisemitism onto atheism.

Seriously, this is a ‘what the fuck’ moment. This is a throwback pope.

Shouldn’t he be saddling Martin Luther with some of the blame as well?

117 b_sharp  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 5:22:19pm

re: #31 Surabaya Stew

Nazism wasn’t tied to any religion (or lack thereof) in particular. Atheists, Catholics, Pagan, Protestants; all were tied up in Hitler’s deathly plans. Whatever religious propaganda worked to get a German (or sympathizer) in a army uniform or black shirt, was employed by the Nazis. Including Catholics!

This Pope is a greater fool than I had realized.

Atheists deny god. Evolution denies god. Nature is red in tooth and claw. Hitler used evolution to justify different level of humanity and nature’s violence to justify artificial selection of humans. Therefore Hitler was an atheist and all atheists are guilty by association.

It all makes sense if your mind is twisted and deformed in the right way and you don’t mind revising history.

118 b_sharp  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 5:23:57pm

re: #50 Varek Raith

This confuses me.
Am I a Nazi?
A Stalinist?
A Maoist?
A Satanist?
/

Yes.

119 [deleted]  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 5:37:51pm
120 Gus  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 5:46:10pm

re: #119 MikeySDCA

The Nazis persecuted the Church, Protestant and Catholic alike.

I’ve never seen a picture of a “Gott mit uns” belt buckle for either the SA or the HJ. This has an urban legend smell.

Hitler may have been a deist, but the difference between that and atheism was a matter of rhetoric. The ceremony on March 21, 1933, when Hitler got the ceremonial handshake of legitimacy from Hindenburg, had no religious content although held in the Garrison Church in Potsdam.

GERMANY: Gott mit Uns
Sept. 18, 1944

Gauleiter Otto Hellmuth sounded a practical note. “We all know that God is with us,” he told the people of Würzburg, “but let’s not rely on God alone. Let’s work so hard and fight so fiercely that God cannot refuse to hand the victory palm to Germany.”

Gauleiter Franz Hofer of Tirol was brushed by the wings of victory. “You must stand faithfully and unflinchingly before, behind and beside the Führer,” he told the Hitler Maidens. “Victory is nearer than you think.”

Goebbels’ legman Helmut Sündermann echoed Winston Churchill, with a German accent. He cried: “The German nation is to be wiped off the map. German men are to be enslaved and deported to all corners of the earth… . When enemy divisions reach German soil, they must be attacked from every house, every village, every field, every hill. We must not leave a single blade of German grass which might feed the invaders.”

All over the Reich desperate variations sounded on this single frantic theme: work and fight. Goebbels ordered eighth-grade pupils out of school into war plants. Battalions of German women formed pick & shovel brigades to strengthen the West Wall. A Swiss traveler reported that the first German women troops were already manning parts of the West Wall. The German nightmare—Einkreisung, encirclement—was coming true at last. And behind the frightened Germans stood a vast potential fifth column. Scattered throughout the Reich were some eight million foreign workers. To them last week went two calls from General Eisenhower’s headquarters: ”Begin now to leave the factories … [but] do not be provoked by the Gestapo into unorganized action.” In Eisenach and Dessau, French, Belgian and Dutch slave labor gangs barricaded themselves in their barracks, sang their national anthems. The SS apparently lacked the men to stop them. Elsewhere foreign workers were stepping up sabotage by slowing down production.

Nervous German women besieged the police for permission to carry revolvers. More farsighted Germans were doing little favors for the foreign helots.

121 Charles Johnson  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 5:46:36pm

re: #119 MikeySDCA

I’ve never seen a picture of a “Gott mit uns” belt buckle for either the SA or the HJ. This has an urban legend smell.

Image: buckle.jpg

122 Gus  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 5:51:33pm

Section VII. INDIVIDUAL EQUIPMENT
1. Field Equipment

a. BELT. The German soldier habitually wears his belt, with or without field equipment. Normally the enlisted man wears a black leather belt, but a web belt goes with the tropical uniform. The belt always is worn with a steel buckle bearing the branch of service emblem. All ground forces of the Army (Heer) have a buckle embossed with a circular crest in the center of which appears an eagle. The circle is formed by the words “Gott mit uns” above the eagle and a wreath below. The Air Force (Luftwaffe) buckle carries an eagle in flight with a swastika in its claws. The figure is encircled by a wreath. The Armed Elite Guard (Waffen SS) buckle bears an eagle whose outstretched wings extend across the top of the buckle. The words “Meine Ehre heisst Treue” make a nearly complete circle below the eagle’s wings. The bird rests on another smaller circle which bears a swastika. Officers wear brown leather belts with a simple tongue-and-bar type buckle. In the field the soldier carries his cartridge pouches, bayonet, entrenching tool, and “bread bag” suspended from this belt. When not wearing field equipment he wears the belt and buckle alone. Metal hooks in the field blouse help hold the belt in place.

Source.

123 kirkspencer  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 5:53:10pm

re: #119 MikeySDCA

The Nazis persecuted the Church, Protestant and Catholic alike.

I’ve never seen a picture of a “Gott mit uns” belt buckle for either the SA or the HJ. This has an urban legend smell.

Hitler may have been a deist, but the difference between that and atheism was a matter of rhetoric. The ceremony on March 21, 1933, when Hitler got the ceremonial handshake of legitimacy from Hindenburg, had no religious content although held in the Garrison Church in Potsdam.

True enough there are sites telling collectors how to spot the fakes.

124 Gus  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 5:58:20pm

Nuremberg Trial Proceedings Vol. 12

ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTEENTH DAY
Monday, 29 April 1946

Morning Session
29 April 46

Witness, what aims did you pursue with your speeches and your articles in Der Stuermer?

STREICHER: The speeches and articles which I wrote were meant to inform the public on a question which appeared to me one of the most important questions. I did not intend to agitate or inflame but to enlighten.

DR. MARX: Apart from your weekly journal, and particularly after the Party came into power, were there any other publications in Germany which treated the Jewish question in an anti-Semitic way?

STREICHER: Anti-Semitic publications have existed in Germany for centuries. A book I had, written by Dr. Martin Luther, was, for instance, confiscated. Dr. Martin Luther would very probably sit in my place in the defendants’ dock today, if this book had been taken into consideration by the Prosecution. In the book The Jews and Their Lies, Dr. Martin Luther writes that the Jews are a serpent’s brood and one should burn down their synagogues and destroy them…

DR. MARX: Herr Streicher, that is not my question, I am asking you to answer my question in accordance with the way I put it. Please answer now with “yes” or “no,” whether there were …

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I should like to interpose an objection to this method of answering unresponsively and with speeches here. We are utterly unable in this procedure to make objections when answers are not responsive to questions. We have already got into this case, through Streicher’s volunteered speeches, an attack on the United States which will take considerable evidence to answer if we are to answer it. It seems to me very improper that a witness should do anything but make a responsive answer to a question, so that we may keep these proceedings from getting into issues that have nothing to do with them. It will not help this Tribunal, in deciding Streicher’s guilt or innocence, to go into questions which he has raised here against us-matters that are perfectly capable of explanation, if we take time to do it.

It seems to me that this witness should be admonished, and admonished so that he will understand it, if that is possible, that he is to answer questions and stop, so that we can know and object in time to orations on irrelevant subjects.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Marx, will you try, when you put the questions to the witness, to stop him if he is not answering the questions you put to him?

DR. MARX: Yes, Mr. President. I was just in the process…

125 theheat  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 5:59:13pm

I like Catholic individuals but have come to loathe their Pope. It isn’t mere coincidence he looks just like Emperor Palpatine, aka Dark Sidious. The guy seriously creeps me out. To me, he represents the dark and creepy side of the church, much, much, more than his predecessor. The same inner voice that made me turn and run when Palin was first introduced told me the current pope is full of blackness inside. When I see him, I don’t see a man of God, I see something far more destructive, and certainly nothing holy. Like Palin, he hasn’t disappointed me. In 50 years my inner voice has a fantastic batting average. No, I can’t bend spoons with my mind or predict the lotto numbers, but I have a keen awareness of “freak”.

The guy’s a creep. A creep disguised as something holy. He does creepy things. He looks creepy. He’s creepy. You don’t have to take my word for it, just follow what he does.

126 Gus  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 5:59:59pm

Martin Luther

Martin Luther (10 November 1483 – 18 February 1546) was a German priest and professor of theology who initiated the Protestant Reformation.[1] Strongly disputing the claim that freedom from God’s punishment of sin could be purchased with money, he confronted indulgence salesman Johann Tetzel with his Ninety-Five Theses in 1517. His refusal to retract all of his writings at the demand of Pope Leo X in 1520 and the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V at the Diet of Worms in 1521 resulted in his excommunication by the pope and condemnation as an outlaw by the emperor.

127 kirkspencer  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 6:02:17pm

re: #119 MikeySDCA

T[snip] [T]he difference between that and atheism was a matter of rhetoric. [snip]

I also want to hit that little bit you snuck in there. It’s wrong.

A deist is one who believes there’s a god; a supreme being that created and oversees the universe. An atheist believes there is no god at all. The closest they come to being the same is in the eyes of someone who believes those not followers of their particular god are all doomed.

128 Gus  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 6:07:33pm

Holocaust Encyclopedia - Book Burning

On April 6, 1933, the Nazi German Student Association’s Main Office for Press and Propaganda proclaimed a nationwide “Action against the Un-German Spirit,” to climax in a literary purge or “cleansing” (Säuberung) by fire. Local chapters were to supply the press with releases and commissioned articles, offer blacklists of “un-German” authors, sponsor well-known Nazi figures to speak at public gatherings, and negotiate for radio broadcast time. On April 8 the students’ association also drafted its twelve “theses” — a deliberate evocation of Martin Luther’s 95 Theses: declarations which described the fundamentals of a “pure” national language and culture. Placards publicized the theses, which attacked “Jewish intellectualism,” asserted the need to “purify” the German language and literature, and demanded that universities be centers of German nationalism. The students described the “action” as a response to a worldwide Jewish “smear campaign” against Germany and an affirmation of traditional German values.

129 Gus  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 6:09:06pm

German American Bund

The German American Bund closely cooperated with the “Christian Front” organized by the antisemitic priest Father Charles Coughlin. The activities of the German American Bund led both Jewish and non-Jewish congressional representatives to demand that it be investigated by the House Un-American Activities Committee chaired by Martin Dies. The Committee hearings, held in 1939, showed clear evidence of German American Bund ties to the Nazi government.

130 ClaudeMonet  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 6:12:27pm

re: #119 MikeySDCA

The Nazis persecuted the Church, Protestant and Catholic alike.

I’ve never seen a picture of a “Gott mit uns” belt buckle for either the SA or the HJ. This has an urban legend smell.

Hitler may have been a deist, but the difference between that and atheism was a matter of rhetoric. The ceremony on March 21, 1933, when Hitler got the ceremonial handshake of legitimacy from Hindenburg, had no religious content although held in the Garrison Church in Potsdam.

It’s not an urban legend. I have a picture of it in a magazine. I’m not sure the picture is available in the online version.

However, here’s a link to an article on the subject of Hitler being an “atheist”—

[Link: www.secularhumanism.org…]

131 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 6:17:37pm

re: #129 Gus 802

German American Bund

It’s hard to hang Coughlin on the RC hierarchy. They cut him some slack through his early (lee rabid) radio shows, but his bishop finally told him to STFU.

132 ClaudeMonet  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 6:21:34pm

re: #129 Gus 802

German American Bund

The Bund was big in my city (long before my family moved here). Back in my athletic days, it was strange to go to softball fields that now occupy the grounds where the Bund held its biggest local rallies 70-plus years ago.

However, some things don’t change. The last time I went to the local Germania festival (not to be confused with our local Oktoberfest), I caught some grief due to running into a “good Catholic” college classmate, who told some others my ethnicity. To them I am not really German, even if my mother’s entire family was from Bavaria.

Anyway, f*** them. The food and beer weren’t that good, anyway.

133 Gus  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 6:25:56pm

re: #131 Decatur Deb

It’s hard to hang Coughlin on the RC hierarchy. They cut him some slack through his early (lee rabid) radio shows, but his bishop finally told him to STFU.

Very true. I wasn’t trying to pinpoint any one particular sect. One of the main inspirations for anti-Semitism and therefore the Nazis rise to power was Martin Luther who was a founder of the Protestant Reformation. An excerpt from that link:

According to Daniel Goldhagen, Bishop Martin Sasse, a leading Protestant churchman, published a compendium of Luther’s writings shortly after Kristallnacht, for which Diarmaid MacCulloch, Professor of the History of the Church in the University of Oxford argued that Luther’s writing was a “blueprint.” Sasse applauded the burning of the synagogues and the coincidence of the day, writing in the introduction, “On 10 November 1938, on Luther’s birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany.” The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words “of the greatest antisemite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews.” According to Professor Dick Geary, the Nazis won a larger share of the vote in Protestant than in Catholic areas of Germany in elections of 1928 to November 1932.

134 ClaudeMonet  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 6:25:59pm

One more thing about Hitler’s Catholicism. The only German bilateral treaty that is still in effect from the Third Reich is the Lateran Treaty, the first treaty negotiated by the Nazis, concluded in 1933—between Germany and the Vatican.

135 acacia  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 6:27:54pm

The Catholic Church as an institution has many many problems and definitely had “anti Semitism” in its history. (Inquisition anyone?) However, the Pope accurately describes the Nazis and their attitude to religion. Yes Hitler and many hard core Nazis claimed to be Christian but he and the Nazis were anything but and in fact were in opposition to the mainstream Christian thought and practice at the time. Let’s face it, Hitler was absolutely mad and warped. He often jumped on the Jews killed Christ mantra which of course fed into his anti-semitism and served its purpose of advancing his genocide. The stories of the Good Samaritan, prodigal son, forgiveness, turning the other cheek etc. didn’t get quite as much play with Hitler. Hitler “used” Christianity in an attempt to give the state credibility but in the end, the true Nazi demanded obedience to the state first and God later, especially if the tenets of God were in opposition to the state. Also, actions speak louder than words and the Church was vigorously persecuted. One of Hitler’s beef with Mussolini was allowing the Church to continue to have so much influence. I could go on and on but the Pope was not engaging in rampant revisionism.

136 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 6:31:52pm

re: #134 ClaudeMonet

One more thing about Hitler’s Catholicism. The only German bilateral treaty that is still in effect from the Third Reich is the Lateran Treaty, the first treaty negotiated by the Nazis, concluded in 1933—between Germany and the Vatican.

Check Wiki on that. I think you’re mixing Hitler and his comic-opera sidekick.

137 ClaudeMonet  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 6:33:12pm

re: #135 acacia

The Catholic Church as an institution has many many problems and definitely had “anti Semitism” in its history. (Inquisition anyone?) However, the Pope accurately describes the Nazis and their attitude to religion. Yes Hitler and many hard core Nazis claimed to be Christian but he and the Nazis were anything but and in fact were in opposition to the mainstream Christian thought and practice at the time. Let’s face it, Hitler was absolutely mad and warped. He often jumped on the Jews killed Christ mantra which of course fed into his anti-semitism and served its purpose of advancing his genocide. The stories of the Good Samaritan, prodigal son, forgiveness, turning the other cheek etc. didn’t get quite as much play with Hitler. Hitler “used” Christianity in an attempt to give the state credibility but in the end, the true Nazi demanded obedience to the state first and God later, especially if the tenets of God were in opposition to the state. Also, actions speak louder than words and the Church was vigorously persecuted. One of Hitler’s beef with Mussolini was allowing the Church to continue to have so much influence. I could go on and on but the Pope was not engaging in rampant revisionism.

Holy Mother Church is good at granting itself absolution.

The only “persecution” of the Church was of those who opposed its political aims and practices. When the Church actively helped the Nazis or “turned the other cheek” at its excesses, they were not touched.

138 SpaceJesus  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 6:33:56pm

in a small box i have some of my grandfather’s world war 2 stuff, among which is a nazi belt buckle he recovered while fighting in germany. right on it, the words “gott mitt uns” (god is on our side) are inscribed. this was just one of millions of belt buckles just like it.

the nazi’s were atheists my fucking ass you pedo enabler

139 Gus  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 6:35:40pm

Nuremberg Trial Proceedings Volume 22
TWO HUNDRED
AND THIRTEENTH DAY
Wednesday, 28 August 1946

Morning Session

28 Aug. 46

The position adopted by the Supreme SA Leadership in regard to the Church question is quite unequivocal. The testimony of the Vicar General, Dr. David, Pastor Burgstaller, and Consistorial Councillor Dr. Rathke show that the Prosecution charged the SA with religious intolerance without justification. By far the overwhelming majority of all SA members still belong to one of the Christian Churches today.

Protestant clergymen served in the ranks of the SA, for instance, Bishop Sasse of Thuringia, from which it appears that the SA Leadership did not exert any pressure to force people to leave the Church. This fact is clearly proved by many affidavits. I recall that Cardinal Count Galen was accompanied by SA members on his trips through the diocese, and that in many districts an order had been issued against scheduling SA training during church services and in the vicinity of churches. It is also a known fact that the SA held divine services in the field. In 1933 the SA furnished the guard of honor when the Holy Robe was exhibited in Treves (Testimony of Dr. David). In cross-examination of the witness Dr. David, the Defense proved that in the famous case in Freising, when the sermon of Cardinal Faulhaber was reported on, the SA Leadership initiated proceedings to punish those who were guilty of such excessive authority.

In regard to the activity of the SA in connection with the guarding of concentration camps and their employment for police and auxiliary police duties, the Prosecution mention only a few cases. The SA is thereby excluded, even according to the Indictment, from the charges concerning the large concentration camps of Auschwitz, Maidanek, Belsen, Dachau, and Buchenwald. In the Vogel case the guilty persons were punished. The misunderstanding created by the Schellenberg affidavit was cleared up by the affidavit of Gontermann (Affidavit Number General SA-16). Schellenberg in London confused the concentration camp and police service with service in the municipal and rural guards.

It is true that after 30 January 1933 a number of policemen and auxiliary policemen were employed for various purposes in certain provinces. They were taken in part from the ranks of the SA, (a) because it was desirable to have some proof of political reliability; (b) because among the many unemployed in the SA there were recruits for the profession of policemen or for auxiliary police work.

When SA members selected as a new occupation, for instance, that of policeman, these were men who actually worked at this vocation. To the extent that they were temporarily employed as auxiliary policemen, which was frequently done as a probation period before being definitely employed as policemen, they were no longer subordinate to the SA but to the competent police authority.

140 acacia  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 6:39:35pm

re: #133 Gus 802

Very true about Luther. Anti semitism is the biggest wart on the Protestant reformation. Luther advanced a lot of good things but I’m afraid he gave anti semitism a good boost. My own view of the Church is that it got off to a good start, was very inclusive and loving but then the “old guard” co-opted it and reinstalled things such as the woman’s inferior place, form over substance, celibacy for priests, ritual, etc. Both Catholics and Protestants have been struggling ever since. If you think of it, the most trouble free religions have been those that don’t have a highly structured set up like Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, etc. There’s not a whole lot of strife in those. On the other hand, the Big Three - Christianity, Judaism, and Islam have a continuous history of strife.

141 Gus  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 6:44:18pm

Nuremberg Trial Proceedings Volume 16

ONE HUNDRED
AND FIFTY-SIXTH DAY
Monday, 17 June 1946

Morning Session

VON PAPEN: I reiterate that I wanted to secure a Christian basis for the Reich at all costs. For that reason, I suggested to Hitler in April 1933 that the rights of the Church should be firmly laid down in a Concordat, and that this Concordat should be followed by an agreement with the Evangelical Church. Hitler agreed, although there was strong opposition in the Party; and thus the Concordat was concluded. The Prosecution has adopted the view that this Concordat was a maneuver intended to deceive. Perhaps I may in this connection point to the facts that the gentlemen with whom I signed this Concordat were Secretary of State Pacelli, the present Pope, who had known Germany personally for 13 years, and Monsignor Kaas, who for years had been the Chairman of the Center Party, and that if these two men were willing to conclude a Concordat, then one can surely not maintain that this was a maneuver intended to deceive.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: I refer to Document 39, Page 121. I should like to read now a quotation from Document 40, on Page 122. After the conclusion of the Concordat, Hitler published a decree, which is worded as follows-near the middle of Page 122:

“I therefore order:

“1. All Catholic organizations which are recognized by the present Treaty and which were dissolved without directions from the Government are to be immediately reinstated.

“2. All measures of coercion against members of the clergy and other leaders of these Catholic organizations are to be rescinded. A revival of such measures is prohibited in the future and will be punished under prevailing laws.”

I read that quotation to prove that only later did Hitler change his mind, probably under the influence of the circle nearest to him.

I refer to Document 41, Page 123, a telegram of Von Papen. In the English translation of this telegram there is a mistake which changes the sense considerably. Paragraph 2 of the telegram says, “Thanks to your generous and wise statesmanlike conception…” The English translation reads “sportsmanlike” instead of ’ “statesmanlike.”

On the next page I draw attention to the telegram addressed by Von Papen to the Bishop of Treves. There are also affidavits relevant to the questions which have been discussed. Document 43, Page 127 is the affidavit of Freiherr von Twickel, and it takes the place of an affidavit which the late Cardinal Von Galen was to have signed. The matter had already been discussed with Cardinal Von Galen; but before being able to put it into writing, he died.

142 acacia  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 6:47:07pm

re: #137 ClaudeMonet

You’re right about the self absolution. Also you’re right that if you went along with Hitler you were ok for awhile - until it was time for a good purge - but the truth is that Hitler was very active in persecuting church leaders and systematically replacing obedience to God with obedience to the state.

143 Gus  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 6:49:24pm

re: #140 acacia

Very true about Luther. Anti semitism is the biggest wart on the Protestant reformation. Luther advanced a lot of good things but I’m afraid he gave anti semitism a good boost. My own view of the Church is that it got off to a good start, was very inclusive and loving but then the “old guard” co-opted it and reinstalled things such as the woman’s inferior place, form over substance, celibacy for priests, ritual, etc. Both Catholics and Protestants have been struggling ever since. If you think of it, the most trouble free religions have been those that don’t have a highly structured set up like Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, etc. There’s not a whole lot of strife in those. On the other hand, the Big Three - Christianity, Judaism, and Islam have a continuous history of strife.

There are cases of Buddhist violence.

Sinhalese Buddhist nationalism

More reference here:

Buddhism and war

Buddhism and violence

But Buddhism, like the other great faiths, has not always lived up to its principles - there are numerous examples of Buddhists engaging in violence and even war.

* in the 14th century Buddhist fighters led the uprising that evicted the Mongols from China
* in Japan, Buddhist monks trained Samurai warriors in meditation that made them better fighters

In the twentieth century Japanese Zen masters wrote in support of Japan’s wars of aggression. For example, Sawaki Kodo (1880–1965) wrote this in 1942:

It is just to punish those who disturb the public order. Whether one kills or does not kill, the precept forbidding killing [is preserved]. It is the precept forbidding killing that wields the sword. It is the precept that throws the bomb.

Sawaki Kodo

In Sri Lanka the 20th century civil war between the mostly Buddhist Sinhalese majority and the Hindu Tamil minority has cost 50,000 lives.

144 acacia  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 6:57:15pm

re: #143 Gus 802

All religions have advocated violence at one point or the other. I agree with that and of course, that’s a whole other discussion, and an interesting one. However, I was merely noting the “internal” cohesiveness of the religion and its relationship to how structured is the religion. In other words in Christianity you’ve got h Catholics hating Protestants and vice versa. In Judaism you have Reform versus Orthodox. In Islam you’ve got Sunni versus Shia. All three of those religions employ a system of a hierarchy that attempts to control actions of people under them. Therefore, people rebel and you have internal strife.

145 ClaudeMonet  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 6:59:38pm

re: #136 Decatur Deb

Check Wiki on that. I think you’re mixing Hitler and his comic-opera sidekick.

I stand corrected. The Concordat was the treaty between Germany and the Vatican, not the Lateran Treaty. Thanks for the correction!

146 Gus  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 7:07:12pm

re: #144 acacia

All religions have advocated violence at one point or the other. I agree with that and of course, that’s a whole other discussion, and an interesting one. However, I was merely noting the “internal” cohesiveness of the religion and its relationship to how structured is the religion. In other words in Christianity you’ve got h Catholics hating Protestants and vice versa. In Judaism you have Reform versus Orthodox. In Islam you’ve got Sunni versus Shia. All three of those religions employ a system of a hierarchy that attempts to control actions of people under them. Therefore, people rebel and you have internal strife.

OK, I see what you mean. One can add that nations states and leaders have manipulated, been a part of, or influenced religions to meet their goals many of which have turned out to be evil. Clearly then a fascist leader in a Protestant state will use that dominant church to meet his ends. The same is true with Shinto which became State Shinto.

The quickest way to the populations hearts has always been religions. This was especially true before 1945. If you controlled the clergy, you control the minds of people. This is why Separation of Church and State is so important because it prevents a religious tyranny or even a secular tyranny by way of manipulating the dominant religion of a people.

147 aagcobb  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 7:15:37pm

Ratzinger should know better than anyone else that the Church hasn’t acted “swiftly” concerning child sexual abuse, since, as the head of the Inquisition, he was one of the primary architects of the cover-up.

148 acacia  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 7:15:59pm

re: #146 Gus 802

Generally agree but with one BIG exception - Communism. No attempt whatsoever to co-opt the Church, it was simply banned. Communism replaced the normal influence of the church with its own unique and new religion - the party - which of course meant many different things to many different people. Not unlike how belief in God means different things to different people. In fact, as I think of it, maybe the unifying theme here is that not only must there be separation of church and state but there must be both church and state. And by “church” I mean an alternative ethical option so that neither the Church nor the state can control the minds of the population.

149 Tim Nadeau  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 7:25:46pm

As one raised in the Catholic tradition and later rejected it, I remember Pope Pious and his anti-semetic views. Wasn’t Hitler Catholic? This is not a representative of Peter, nor has it ever been. Each Pope comes with his own worldly views and agenda.

150 Gus  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 7:28:48pm

re: #148 acacia

Generally agree but with one BIG exception - Communism. No attempt whatsoever to co-opt the Church, it was simply banned. Communism replaced the normal influence of the church with its own unique and new religion - the party - which of course meant many different things to many different people. Not unlike how belief in God means different things to different people. In fact, as I think of it, maybe the unifying theme here is that not only must there be separation of church and state but there must be both church and state. And by “church” I mean an alternative ethical option so that neither the Church nor the state can control the minds of the population.

In the case of Stalin he did so because he so the Orthodox Church as being in competition with the attention he sought. That wasn’t the only reason and it was because Communism was to become the new religion of the people thus it was a form of social engineering. It’s similar to the way modern totalitarian governments control what the population sees in the media: tv, print, radio, books, etc. Religion remains an intellectual commodity which is sometimes (often) in conflict with fascist states.

There should be churches, and no-churches (as in secular humanism) and states. That as always is up to the will of the people and what they so desire. As with all free people.

151 Nick Schroeder  Thu, Sep 16, 2010 8:23:45pm

I’m glad to see numerous websites pointing out the idiocy of these assertions. Thanks for posting this Charles.

I think political or religious ideology (or lack thereof) really doesn’t matter too much in the rise of fascist or generally evil movements. It takes a certain type of evil genius to exploit the weak-minded within a society, and once enough weak-minded people are convinced there’s a ‘villain’ to be destroyed, you’ve got yourself a movement. And once you have that kind of movement, if it gains enough strength to take over, you essentially have an entire country under the control of a few maniacal evil people who are then free to exterminate ‘undesirables’ or ban religion or what have you. And then everyone’s in a world of shit.

152 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Sep 17, 2010 12:22:25am

The Nazis were very anti-clerical, which the Church associates with being antireligious.

The very Catholic German State of Bavaria still has a law requiring a crucifix in every school classroom. When that law was challenged in court, one of the arguments against it was that the Nazis removed the crucifixed from classrooms in the 30’s and replaced them with pictures of Hitler.

Benedict is just rehashing this argument on a broader scale

153 Timmeh  Fri, Sep 17, 2010 1:52:47am

Pope Rat thinks we forgot his Nazi past.

154 S'latch  Fri, Sep 17, 2010 5:04:57am

I think most of the Nazis, and especially their psychopathic leader, were essentially master manipulators. The were able to appear to be whatever many German people wanted. They could appear to be either socialists or capitalists if necessary. They could appear to be traditional coreligionists of the majority, atheists, or even pagan cultists. They could appear to be whatever they needed to appear to be to achieve their ends—power and the abuse of it.

155 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Sep 17, 2010 10:43:17am

re: #154 Lawrence Schmerel

Except they never appeared as atheists. A couple of them were atheists. But their public face always invoked God being on their side.

156 Liberal Classic  Fri, Sep 17, 2010 11:14:24am

I’m a little nonplussed by the Pope’s condemnation of secularism at the same time praising “pluralist democracy which places great value on freedom of speech, freedom of political affiliation and respect for the rule of law, with a strong sense of the individual’s rights and duties, and of the equality of all citizens before the law”. The are Enlightenment values, not Christian teachings. Furthermore, the Pope is raising the alarm against atheism, yet the plot on his life involve Muslims of Algerian extraction. But at least Muslims believe in god, right?

157 abolitionist  Sat, Sep 18, 2010 6:13:09am

Charles, you said “A case could be made that Pope Benedict’s description of this disastrous chapter of history is exactly opposite to the truth — that it was far more enabled by European religious tradition than by the Pope’s atheist boogeyman.”

While I agree about “Germany and Europe’s long, sordid tradition of Christian antisemitism”, the Nazis were in many ways bent on smashing and replacing European religious tradition, rather than being allied with it and enabled by it. The following clip is an excerpt from an hour-long documentary about occultism in the Third Reich.

Note the smashing of a church’s stained glass window at the start of this clip, Hitler Removes Christianity I’m not sure, but I’m guessing the stained glass breakage bit is from Triumph of the Will.

Partial transcript: Nordic myth replaced the Christian Bible as the foundation of the new nazi religion. In a pageant, orchestrated by Rosenberg and captured on film, nazis celebrated their newly conceived version of their aryan culture and history. Rosenberg wrote, Today a new mythos is dawning, the mythos of the blood. … Hitler took Rosenberg’s idea further, when he wrote, the old beliefs will be brought back to honor again. … We will wash off the Christian veneer, and bring out a religion peculiar to our race.

158 demonfish  Sat, Sep 18, 2010 6:59:45am

Take a moment to watch Stephen Fry’s wonderfully eloquent arse-kicking of the Catholic Church. Sums up my own view of organised religion….

He is pure class.

159 demonfish  Sat, Sep 18, 2010 7:00:35am

…part 2

160 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 19, 2010 11:00:37am

re: #157 abolitionist

You’ve got be kidding. Your evidence for this is a one-minute video clip uploaded to YouTube by a raving fundamentalist nutjob?

Sure, the Nazis were influenced by occult ideas, but to say they wanted to “smash and replace” European religious tradition is a ridiculous exaggeration, bordering on completely untrue.


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