Newt Gingrich thinks we need a federal ban on shariah law.
Because without this crucial legislation, sharia law will be taking over America any day now. The danger is imminent.
cough
1 |
Surabaya Stew Sun, Sep 19, 2010 8:53:12pm |
Sharia law has as much chance of taking over America as Quaker principals replacing the Army field manual.
| 2 |
freetoken Sun, Sep 19, 2010 8:53:26pm |
Newt Gingrich thinks we need a federal ban on shariah law.
| 3 |
bratwurst Sun, Sep 19, 2010 8:54:22pm |
Would it not be easier at this point for Gingrich to only mention which wingnut talking points (if any) he ISN"T paying lip service to?
| 4 |
avanti Sun, Sep 19, 2010 8:54:24pm |
Maybe the rational GOP members in Congress could get together and declare they are independents, at least until sanity returns to their party. It's a win-win for them, because as RINO's in today's world, they'll be voted out anyway.
| 5 |
Cato the Elder Sun, Sep 19, 2010 8:54:31pm |
The man is primed for The Great CivClash the way I would be stoked for a date with Anne Hathaway.
| 6 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Sep 19, 2010 8:55:00pm |
Last time I looked, we already have a constitution. Although I will volunteer to be stoned to prove a point. Wait, what?
/
| 7 |
ClaudeMonet Sun, Sep 19, 2010 8:55:30pm |
re: #1 Surabaya Stew
Sharia law has as much chance of taking over America as Quaker principals replacing the Army field manual.
Quaker principals? I didn't know they have their own schools!
| 8 |
Truth Dr. Sun, Sep 19, 2010 8:56:51pm |
Anne Hathaway - now that would be a dream date. Unfortunately the only Hathaway waiting for me is Miss Jane.
| 9 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sun, Sep 19, 2010 8:56:55pm |
And of course, never mind the
1st Amendment - separation of church and state.
4th Amendment - details searches and court requirements
5th Amendment - requiring grand juries and banning self incrimination - aka torture.
8th Amendment - banning cruel and unusual punishment as well as excessive bail
Between them, Sharia is already illegal. But of course that doesn't stop the Republicans and the Teabaggers...
| 10 |
Gus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 8:57:20pm |
Mr. Gingrich. Name one Western, non-Muslim country that was eventually overtaken by Sharia Law over their own particular rule of law.
[crickets]
| 11 |
Shiplord Kirel Sun, Sep 19, 2010 8:59:08pm |
While we're at it, we can make sure the Code of Hammurabi does not manage to worm its way into our statutes either. I can't prove there are little cells of neo-Babylonians plotting our subjugation but you can't prove there aren't, so there.
| 12 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 8:59:26pm |
re: #10 Gus 802
Mr. Gingrich. Name one Western, non-Muslim country that was eventually overtaken by Sharia Law over their own particular rule of law.
[crickets]
The point is, we don't want to be the first!!
| 13 |
What, me worry? Sun, Sep 19, 2010 8:59:58pm |
He should have been watching Gen Powell on Meet The Press this morning.
The video is also on that page.MR. GREGORY: Because Newt Gingrich...has made some references to a book that's out ... "What if [Obama] is so outside our comprehension, that only if you understand Kenyan, anti-colonial behavior..."
GEN. POWELL: I would, I would just tell my, my fellow Americans think carefully about what was just said. Think carefully about some of the stuff that is coming across the blogs and the airwaves. Let's make a couple of points. One, the president was born in the United States of America. Let's get rid of that one, let's get rid of the birth thing. Let's attack him on policy not nonsense. Next, he is a Christian. He is not a Muslim. Twenty percent of the people say he is a Muslim, 80 percent of the people apparently do not believe he's a Muslim.
MR. GREGORY: Thirty-one percent of Republicans say he's a Muslim.
GEN. POWELL: Well surprise, surprise. [and he paused after this] But I'll bet you a dollar if the unemployment rate was not 9.6, but it was down to 4 percent, then you would find only 5 percent thinking he's Muslim. So they're attacking the president on this line. But he is not a Muslim, he is a Christian. And I think we have to be careful when we, when we take things like Dinesh D'Souza's book, which is the source of all of this, and suggest that somehow the president of the United States is channeling his dead father through some Kenyan spirits. This doesn't make any sense. Mr. Gingrich does these things from time to time with a big, bold statement. He did it with Sotomayor, "She's a reverse racist." He did it with Elena Kagan, "She ought to pull out of--she ought to be taken off the, the nomination for Supreme Court justice." And he does it occasionally to make news and to also stir up dust..."
| 14 |
Surabaya Stew Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:00:14pm |
re: #7 ClaudeMonet
Quaker principals? I didn't know they have their own schools!
Heh, they sure do! As a graduate from a Quaker institute of learning, I can asure you that they do a pretty good job of it (spelling transgressions, notwithstanding!). Ironic then, that the varsity teams had a well-deserved reputation for agressiveness, go figure....
| 15 |
engineer cat Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:01:14pm |
gingrich's call for the revocation of the edict of nantes didn't get the same amount of press, for some reason...
| 16 |
Gus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:01:19pm |
re: #12 SanFranciscoZionist
The point is, we don't want to be the first!!
Eleventy! Of course we know the types that have been claiming that the Talmud would be replacing American law since the days of Father Coughlin and possibly before that. Gingrich should crawl back into his rabbit hole.
| 17 |
Cato the Elder Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:01:30pm |
re: #10 Gus 802
Mr. Gingrich. Name one Western, non-Muslim country that was eventually overtaken by Sharia Law over their own particular rule of law.
[crickets]
Greece.
| 18 |
elizajane Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:01:45pm |
The Right is obsessed with Sharia law because it's something they recognize. They get what it means for laws to be governed by religious principles and they want to make sure it's THEIR religious principles.
The Left laughs this off as Tea-Party paranoia because it's too far outside of their box. But for the Values Voters, a Christian form of Sharia is precisely inside their box.
| 19 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:02:40pm |
re: #17 Cato the Elder
Greece.
OK, are there any that weren't taken over by another country, and just sort of slipped into it?
| 20 |
Truth Dr. Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:02:51pm |
I'm humming that old Sound of Music ditty, "How do you solve a problem like Sharia?"
| 21 |
avanti Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:05:07pm |
re: #11 Shiplord Kirel
While we're at it, we can make sure the Code of Hammurabi does not manage to worm its way into our statutes either. I can't prove there are little cells of neo-Babylonians plotting our subjugation but you can't prove there aren't, so there.
Too late, it's already on the Supreme courts exterior:
The 18 lawgivers looking down on the justices are divided into two friezes of ivory-colored, Spanish marble. On the south wall, to the right of incoming visitors, are figures from the pre-Christian era -- Menes, Hammurabi, Moses, Solomon, Lycurgus, Solon, Draco, Confucius and Octavian (Caesar Augustus). On the north wall to the left are lawmakers of the Christian era -- Napoleon Bonaparte, Marshall, William Blackstone, Hugo Grotius, Louis IX, King John, Charlemagne, Muhammad and Justinian.
| 22 |
freetoken Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:06:21pm |
re: #21 avanti
Clearly then the SC building's exterior needs to purified.
| 23 |
Shiplord Kirel Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:06:23pm |
Since we can't even stamp out reality TV and disco revivals, I don't know see how imported mullahs might be able to force their own morals on the whole country.
| 24 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:07:17pm |
re: #23 Shiplord Kirel
Since we can't even stamp out reality TV and disco revivals, I don't know see how imported mullahs might be able to force their own morals on the whole country.
It's the hysterical desire for a total ban on something that is not possible under our present system of law to begin with.
Makes no sense at all.
| 25 |
Shiplord Kirel Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:07:29pm |
re: #22 freetoken
Clearly then the SC building's exterior needs to purified.
Like those nekkid statues Ashcroft had covered up for a photo op.
| 26 |
avanti Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:07:53pm |
| 27 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:08:35pm |
re: #26 avanti
Just leave Moses.
Nonsense. He doesn't need to be hanging around with these people. I will take him home.
| 28 |
Truth Dr. Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:09:04pm |
#21 - Isn't a visual representation of Muhammad offensive to Muslims?
| 29 |
Intenzity Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:09:31pm |
So he wants something that would say, and I am just spitballing here, along the lines of perhaps a statement saying that Congress would make sure no law could be made forcing the establishment of a particular religion?
Hmm, again, I am just throwing out ideas here, but what if it went something like -
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"
That sounds good, no?
| 30 |
freetoken Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:09:40pm |
re: #25 Shiplord Kirel
Or the VA state seal that Cuccinelli thought immoral.
| 31 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:09:49pm |
re: #28 Truth Dr.
#21 - Isn't a visual representation of Muhammad offensive to Muslims?
I think that at the time that these were being put together, no one cared.
| 32 |
Gus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:10:22pm |
re: #29 Intenzity
So he wants something that would say, and I am just spitballing here, along the lines of perhaps a statement saying that Congress would make sure no law could be made forcing the establishment of a particular religion?
Hmm, again, I am just throwing out ideas here, but what if it went something like -
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"
That sounds good, no?
Thank you. But apparently the wingnuts are against the Establishment Clause.
| 33 |
Claire Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:10:30pm |
re: #10 Gus 802
Mr. Gingrich. Name one Western, non-Muslim country that was eventually overtaken by Sharia Law over their own particular rule of law.
[crickets]
Now a report, Sharia Law in Britain: A Threat to One Law for All and Equal Rights, reveals the adverse effect of sharia courts on family law. Under sharia's civil code, a woman's testimony is worth half of a man's. A man can divorce his wife by repudiation, whereas a woman must give justifications, some of which are difficult to prove. Child custody reverts to the father at a preset age; women who remarry lose custody of their children even before then; and sons inherit twice the share of daughters.There has been much controversy about Muslim arbitration tribunals, which have attracted attention because they operate as tribunals under the Arbitration Act, making their rulings binding in UK law.
The UK apparantly now has shariah courts for certain disputes that treat women like shit. Or it could all be bullshit- it's on the internet, so that means somebody is lying.
| 35 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:11:20pm |
re: #32 Gus 802
Thank you. But apparently the wingnuts are against the Establishment Clause.
They don't want separation of Church and State. Just protection against other people's religious law.
| 36 |
SpaceJesus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:11:44pm |
i will support this so long as every piece of legislation that is driven by a religious motive is made illegal.
| 37 |
Varek Raith Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:12:03pm |
re: #35 SanFranciscoZionist
They don't want separation of Church and State. Just protection against other people's religious law.
They believe in separation from themselves and reality.
| 38 |
SpaceJesus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:13:09pm |
judges sporting turbans and saifs would be pretty cool though imo
| 39 |
Targetpractice Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:13:44pm |
re: #35 SanFranciscoZionist
They don't want separation of Church and State. Just protection against other people's religious law.
Yeah, they're more worried about a Separation of Mosque and State. Church and State, they're all for.
| 40 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:14:58pm |
Oh no, Ayman. We're shit out of luck! They passed a law saying we're not allowed to completely demolish their comparatively bohemian liberal way of life and replace it with a self-hating asceticism derived from the imagined will of our version of the invisible monster in the sky. Drat that Newt Gingrich. If not for his brave and innovative action, we'd be twirling our mustaches in victory at this very moment!
| 41 |
APox Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:16:02pm |
Let's ratchet up the heat for a holy war!
No possible way that Sharia Law would ever take over, but it sure sends out a nice middle finger to the Middle East.
America, FUCK YEAH.
And all to try and win an election or maybe some cash for speaking events. Sick.
| 42 |
Gus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:16:30pm |
re: #33 Claire
The UK apparantly now has shariah courts for certain disputes that treat women like shit. Or it could all be bullshit- it's on the internet, so that means somebody is lying.
The UK and Greece can very easily remove this. In the UK it is being largely supported by the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr. Rowan Williams who is the leader of the Church of England.
| 43 |
Eclectic Infidel Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:17:08pm |
Another useless gesture by a Republican.
| 44 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:17:31pm |
re: #33 Claire
The UK apparantly now has shariah courts for certain disputes that treat women like shit. Or it could all be bullshit- it's on the internet, so that means somebody is lying.
Does anyone have to go to one of these, or is it equivalent to me going to a Bais Din?
That said, demanding a federal ban, when we can't even get the ERA passed, seems, shall we say, overkill.
| 45 |
SpaceJesus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:17:39pm |
i imagine the real reason newt is against sharia is because sharia says that a man should get his wiener chopped off if he divorces his wife while she is on her cancer deathbed
| 46 |
Cato the Elder Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:17:51pm |
re: #36 SpaceJesus
i will support this so long as every piece of legislation that is driven by a religious motive is made illegal.
Yeah, all that shit about not stealing is so dated.
| 47 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:18:52pm |
re: #35 SanFranciscoZionist
They don't want separation of Church and State. Just protection against other people's religious law.
Repeated.
Bolded.
BECAUSE THIS IS THE FREAKING TRUTH!!!!!
My ancestors were puritans. They came to America because the Crown would not allow them to discriminate as they chose to.
Sometimes it's really that simple.
| 48 |
lostlakehiker Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:20:11pm |
What they're actually worried about is what has in fact already happened in Britain: Sharia law is being used, with the "consent" of both parties, as the framework for certain mediation situations. That's not the end of the world, but it does pose a danger to Muslim women involved in marital disputes. They face social pressure to agree to that framework, and then, under those rules, they lose.
| 49 |
SpaceJesus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:20:15pm |
re: #46 Cato the Elder
yeah, too bad that existed before religion huh
| 50 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:20:31pm |
re: #45 SpaceJesus
i imagine the real reason newt is against sharia is because sharia says that a man should get his wiener chopped off if he divorces his wife while she is on her cancer deathbed
Sharia says that? COOL. Halacha just says you can't, but I don't think there's some cool and gruesome punishment if you do it anyway.
//
| 51 |
avanti Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:21:17pm |
re: #28 Truth Dr.
#21 - Isn't a visual representation of Muhammad offensive to Muslims?
Funny you should mention that:
"In 1997, the Council on American-Islamic Relations requested that the Supreme Court remove the image of Muhammad from the marble frieze of the facade. While appreciating the fact that Muhammad was included in the court's pantheon of 18 prominent lawgivers of history, CAIR noted that Islam discourages depictions of Muhammad in any artistic representation. CAIR also objected that the prophet was shown with a sword, reinforcing long-held stereotypes of Muslims as intolerant conquerors. Chief Justice William Rehnquist rejected the request to sandblast Muhammad, saying the artwork "was intended only to recognize him, among many other lawgivers, as an important figure in the history of law; it is not intended as a form of idol worship." The court later added a footnote to tourist materials describing the frieze, calling it a "a well-intentioned attempt by the sculptor to honor Muhammad."
| 52 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:21:28pm |
re: #50 SanFranciscoZionist
Sharia says that? COOL. Halacha just says you can't, but I don't think there's some cool and gruesome punishment if you do it anyway.
//
Lorania Bobbit didn't need Sharia.
| 54 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:22:22pm |
re: #48 lostlakehiker
What they're actually worried about is what has in fact already happened in Britain: Sharia law is being used, with the "consent" of both parties, as the framework for certain mediation situations. That's not the end of the world, but it does pose a danger to Muslim women involved in marital disputes. They face social pressure to agree to that framework, and then, under those rules, they lose.
1. A reasonable concern, however, in Britain, it's based, IIRC, on a long-standing system of allowing religious laws within certain communities some standing. We don't have that. Nor should we.
2. Newt's not out to ban the FLDS. Newt doesn't give a shit about women's status under the law.
3. That's not what Newt's actually worried about, in the slightest.
| 55 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:22:31pm |
re: #9 wlewisiii
And of course, never mind the
1st Amendment - separation of church and state.
4th Amendment - details searches and court requirements
5th Amendment - requiring grand juries and banning self incrimination - aka torture.
8th Amendment - banning cruel and unusual punishment as well as excessive bailBetween them, Sharia is already illegal. But of course that doesn't stop the Republicans and the Teabaggers...
9th Amendment - just 'cause we didn't list every fucking stupid thing Ben Franklin brought up while stoned as hell doesn't mean we want you to do it. Look, leave "being a collossal dick" to the pros, by which we mean the Crown, the French, and the Spanish.
| 56 |
Gus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:23:04pm |
re: #49 SpaceJesus
yeah, too bad that existed before religion huh
Yep. Mongo no like when people steal berries from cave. Mongo get angry hit thieves over head with club.
Later as the clan grew more extensive they codified it into a law. People who steel berries from cave get hit over head with club.
As opposed to "don't steal berries because God said so and if you keep from stealing berries and other things you get to live rent free for eternity after death."
//
| 58 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:24:08pm |
re: #56 Gus 802
Yep. Mongo no like when people steal berries from cave. Mongo get angry hit thieves over head with club.
Later as the clan grew more extensive they codified it into a law. People who steel berries from cave get hit over head with club.
As opposed to "don't steal berries because God said so and if you keep from stealing berries and other things you get to live rent free for eternity after death."
//
Religion is the part where you get asked, "What is Mongo going to eat if you keep stealing his damn berries? Don't you have a responsibility to Mongo?"
| 59 |
Truth Dr. Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:24:09pm |
#51 Thanks for that avanti. CAIR is one of the groups that claim to represent Muslims but I think they are really one of the Islamist front groups. They are really harsh when it comes to Israel.
| 60 |
Cato the Elder Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:24:22pm |
re: #51 avanti
CAIR still occasionally needs to hear the words "go fuck yourselves".
| 61 |
Gus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:24:35pm |
re: #58 SanFranciscoZionist
Religion is the part where you get asked, "What is Mongo going to eat if you keep stealing his damn berries? Don't you have a responsibility to Mongo?"
Guilt! ;)
| 62 |
Claire Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:25:09pm |
re: #44 SanFranciscoZionist
Does anyone have to go to one of these, or is it equivalent to me going to a Bais Din?
That said, demanding a federal ban, when we can't even get the ERA passed, seems, shall we say, overkill.
Overkill? No argument there.
Here's the rest of the article:
But sharia councils, which are charities, are equally harmful since their mediation differs little from arbitration. Sharia councils will frequently ask people to sign an agreement to abide by their decisions. Councils call themselves courts and the presiding imams are judges. There is neither control over the appointment of these judges nor an independent monitoring mechanism. People often do not have access to legal advice and representation. Proceedings are not recorded, nor are there any searchable legal judgements. Nor is there any real right to appeal.There is also danger to those at risk of domestic violence. In one study, four out of 10 women attending sharia courts were party to civil injunctions against their husbands.
"In this way, these privatised legal processes were ignoring not only state law intervention and due process but providing little protection and safety for the women. Furthermore … husbands used this opportunity to negotiate reconciliation, financial settlements for divorce, and access to children. Settlements which in effect were being discussed under the shadow of law."
An example of the kind of decision that is contrary to UK law and public policy is the custody of children. Under British law, the child's best interest is the court's paramount consideration. In a sharia court the custody of children reverts to the father at a preset age regardless of the circumstances. In divorce proceedings, too, civil law takes into account the merits of the case and divides assets based on the needs and intentions of both parties. Under sharia law, only men have the right to unilateral divorce. If a woman manages to obtain a divorce without her husband's consent, she will lose the sum of money (or dowry) that was agreed to at the time of marriage.
There is an assumption that those who attend sharia courts do so voluntarily and that unfair decisions can be challenged. Since much of sharia law is contrary to British law and public policy, in theory they would be unlikely to be upheld in a British court. In reality, women are often pressured by their families into going to these courts and adhering to unfair decisions and may lack knowledge of their rights under British law. Moreover, refusal to settle a dispute in a sharia court could lead to to threats, intimidation or isolation.
With the rise in the sharia courts' acceptability, discrimination is further institutionalised with some law firms offering clients "conventional" representation alongside sharia law advice.
As long as sharia courts are allowed to make rulings on family law, women will be pressured into accepting decisions which are prejudicial.
The report recommends abolishing the courts by initiating a human rights challenge and amending the Arbitration Act as Canada's Arbitration Act was amended in 2005 to exclude religious arbitration.
The demand for the abolition of sharia courts in Britain, as elsewhere, is not an attack on people's right to religion; it is a defence of human rights, especially since the imposition of sharia courts is a demand of Islamism to restrict citizens' rights.
Rights, justice, inclusion, equality and respect are for people, not for beliefs and parallel legal systems. To safeguard the rights and freedoms of all those living in Britain, there must be one secular law for all and no religious courts.
| 64 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:25:45pm |
re: #55 negativ
9th Amendment - just 'cause we didn't list every fucking stupid thing Ben Franklin brought up while stoned as hell doesn't mean we want you to do it. Look, leave "being a collossal dick" to the pros, by which we mean the Crown, the French, and the Spanish.
OY! Excellent Dude!!!!!!
Seriously, there is real truth there. "we didn't list every fucking stupid thing" works both ways no matter what those idiots want to pretend otherwise.
| 65 |
SpaceJesus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:26:41pm |
all the criticisms about these shariah arbitration panels are the same complaints against any arbitration panel ever.
| 67 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:27:02pm |
re: #58 SanFranciscoZionist
Religion is the part where you get asked, "What is Mongo going to eat if you keep stealing his damn berries? Don't you have a responsibility to Mongo?"
Am I my Mongo's keeper?
| 68 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:28:18pm |
Here's how we do it in the States:
In 1983, New York State passed the Get Law: Domestic Relations Law §253, which states that prior to a the court granting a civil divorce, both parties to the divorce will take all steps possible to remove any barriers to remarriage that the other party might encounter. This effectively means that in the State of New York, before a civil divorce is finalized, a Jewish husband must grant his wife a get. If you live New York State, be sure to talk to your civil lawyer and your rabbi about how to ensure that your husband gives you a get.
In 2007, the Maryland State Senate failed to pass a similar law, Bill 533. No state other than New York currently has get legislation. There is, however, case law in the statutory annotations of many states; this means that in any state, a court may or may not order a husband to give a get, depending on the circumstances of the case. Get cases are sometimes argued under the “free exercise” clause of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, which states that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” For example, in one New Jersey divorce case, the court decided that forcing the husband to give a get fulfilled the secular purpose of completing the divorce; since no religious ritual was required in order to obtain the get, and since the get in no way impacted his ability to practice his religion, his First Amendment rights were not infringed by this requirement. Speak to your lawyer about such possibilities.
| 69 |
Gus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:28:24pm |
So here it is Newt:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
Which means no law respecting religion. Hear that Prop 8 supporters? You can freely exercise your religion but no laws respecting the establishment of a religion. So that included Islam, and Christianity. And all the rest of course.
| 71 |
Varek Raith Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:29:48pm |
re: #69 Gus 802
So here it is Newt:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
Which means no law respecting religion. Hear that Prop 8 supporters? You can freely exercise your religion but no laws respecting the establishment of a religion. So that included Islam, and Christianity. And all the rest of course.
*waves hand*
The Force is exempt.
| 72 |
reginald perrin Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:29:54pm |
| 74 |
Cato the Elder Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:30:57pm |
re: #61 Gus 802
Guilt! ;)
I prefer a bit of guilt to "I just want to put it behind me and move on with my life". In fact, anyone found guilty of a crime who says that in public should get an additional sentence or fine.
| 75 |
Gus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:31:09pm |
Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you Mongo?
| 76 |
blueraven Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:31:31pm |
re: #32 Gus 802
Thank you. But apparently the wingnuts are against the Establishment Clause.
Newt is pro-colonial, he doesn't accept the Establishment Clause. /
| 77 |
SpaceJesus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:31:36pm |
i think a lot of confusion about the establishment clause would be cleared up in this country if we made a concerted effort to educate conservatives that the word "respecting" as it appears in the 1st amendment means "having anything to do with"
| 78 |
Targetpractice Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:32:27pm |
re: #71 Varek Raith
*waves hand*
The Force is exempt.
...what's with the hand waving? You think you're a Jedi or something? You want the Force exempt, I'm gonna need to see some money.
/
| 79 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:32:54pm |
| 80 |
Ojoe Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:33:03pm |
I try to live by the Scout Law.
Shall we ban that too?
It's not Federal code.
| 82 |
Henchman 25 Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:33:33pm |
re: #73 Truth Dr.
Protip: Use the reply button. Makes it look a bit more organized and easier for others to tell who you're replying to.
| 83 |
Truth Dr. Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:34:19pm |
re: #82 SteelPH
Thanks SteelPH. Will do? Don't know what the 2010 reference is about?
| 84 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:34:20pm |
re: #82 SteelPH
Protip: Use the reply button. Makes it look a bit more organized and easier for others to tell who you're replying to.
Or the comment one to show people what you are commenting on.
| 85 |
Political Atheist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:34:24pm |
Gingrich makes me feel old. I actually recall him doing some good bipartisan work way back when. Seems like decades. Wait... it was!
| 87 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:35:03pm |
re: #85 Rightwingconspirator
Gingrich makes me feel old. I actually recall him doing some good bipartisan work way back when. Seems like decades. Wait... it was!
And you are in fact, old.
//
| 89 |
Gus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:35:25pm |
re: #74 Cato the Elder
I prefer a bit of guilt to "I just want to put it behind me and move on with my life". In fact, anyone found guilty of a crime who says that in public should get an additional sentence or fine.
That's typically how judges react to that kind of attitude.
| 90 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:35:58pm |
I'm thinking. I don't think a federal ban on sharia is absolute enough. I want specifics. Hence, I want amendments to the Constitution demanding the absolute social and legal equality of women and gay folks.
Is Newt going to support me in this?
| 91 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:36:25pm |
re: #84 Cannadian Club Akbar
Or the comment one to show people what you are commenting on.
Sorry, meant the quote button, pimf.
| 92 |
Gus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:36:26pm |
re: #90 SanFranciscoZionist
I'm thinking. I don't think a federal ban on sharia is absolute enough. I want specifics. Hence, I want amendments to the Constitution demanding the absolute social and legal equality of women and gay folks.
Is Newt going to support me in this?
No.
| 93 |
Cato the Elder Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:36:28pm |
re: #84 Cannadian Club Akbar
Or the comment one to show people what you are commenting on.
There's a "comment" button?
| 94 |
Truth Dr. Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:36:38pm |
re: #90 SanFranciscoZionist
For what it's worth, I support you.
| 95 |
Ojoe Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:36:38pm |
re: #9 wlewisiii
And of course, never mind the
1st Amendment - separation of church and state.
4th Amendment - details searches and court requirements
5th Amendment - requiring grand juries and banning self incrimination - aka torture.
8th Amendment - banning cruel and unusual punishment as well as excessive bailBetween them, Sharia is already illegal. But of course that doesn't stop the Republicans and the Teabaggers...
Lots of the worrisome parts of Islam as we see it in other countries are already illegal here in the USA.
| 96 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:37:25pm |
re: #92 Gus 802
No.
I didn't think so. Why not? If he doesn't, surely the Creeping Sharia will allow for the stoning of adulteresses and sodomites. Is Newt in league with the Islamic fundamentalists?
| 97 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:37:47pm |
re: #94 Truth Dr.
For what it's worth, I support you.
Thank you! Now we just need...lots more people.
| 98 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:38:42pm |
re: #95 Ojoe
Lots of the worrisome parts of Islam as we see it in other countries are already illegal here in the USA.
Lots of them are also illegal in Muslim countries.
| 99 |
Gus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:38:57pm |
re: #96 SanFranciscoZionist
I didn't think so. Why not? If he doesn't, surely the Creeping Sharia will allow for the stoning of adulteresses and sodomites. Is Newt in league with the Islamic fundamentalists?
I wouldn't go as far as Newt supporting stoning. But while we're on stones he would probably like to see America treating gays back to the way they did pre-Stonewall.
| 100 |
Girth Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:40:16pm |
re: #90 SanFranciscoZionist
I'm thinking. I don't think a federal ban on sharia is absolute enough. I want specifics. Hence, I want amendments to the Constitution demanding the absolute social and legal equality of women and gay folks.
Is Newt going to support me in this?
I think Newt is thinking more along the lines that women should be allowed to wear pants if they want to, not so much on the whole equality thing.
| 101 |
Targetpractice Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:40:35pm |
re: #95 Ojoe
Lots of the worrisome parts of Islam as we see it in other countries are already illegal here in the USA.
Nah, Newt and the Christian Right are scared that Islam will piggyback on their own efforts to subvert those sections of the Constitution in order to push their own brand of theocracy on this nation. They want to cut off any competition from other religions at the knees.
| 102 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:42:21pm |
re: #100 Girth
I think Newt is thinking more along the lines that women should be allowed to wear pants if they want to, not so much on the whole equality thing.
I'm sure he is. Since the laws of the United States allow anyone who wants to to wear pants, I'm not sure what else he wants.
| 103 |
Ojoe Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:43:15pm |
re: #98 SanFranciscoZionist
Lots of them are also illegal in Muslim countries.
I'm not a legal scholar but I assume that it is illegal in, say, Pakistan for instance, to blow yourself up in a crowd?
Anybody know for sure?
| 104 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:44:04pm |
re: #103 Ojoe
I'm not a legal scholar but I assume that it is illegal in, say, Pakistan for instance, to blow yourself up in a crowd?
Anybody know for sure?
Probably, just hard to prosecute them.
| 105 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:44:32pm |
re: #103 Ojoe
I'm not a legal scholar but I assume that it is illegal in, say, Pakistan for instance, to blow yourself up in a crowd?
Anybody know for sure?
No, but I'm fairly sure that if you try and fail, the law will deal with you most seriously.
| 106 |
Ojoe Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:45:21pm |
re: #104 Cannadian Club Akbar
You would have to give them a partial sentence.
| 107 |
Gus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:45:33pm |
Odd how the same people that are always complaining that the left calls the Constitution a living, breathing document are the same one that want to add or subtract from the Constitution as they see fit. This is just like the stupid call for an amendment to ban gay marriage or define marriage between only a man or a woman. Which, not so ironically, is a religious idea and against the Establishment Clause.
| 108 |
Targetpractice Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:45:40pm |
re: #104 Cannadian Club Akbar
Probably, just hard to prosecute them.
Heh, have a jar of martyr bits on the stand.
"Sir, did you or did you not self-detonate in the middle of the crowd?"
"..."
"I'll take your silence as an answer of 'Affirmative.' No further questions."
/
| 109 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:46:00pm |
| 110 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:46:29pm |
re: #108 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Heh, have a jar of martyr bits on the stand.
"Sir, did you or did you not self-detonate in the middle of the crowd?"
"..."
"I'll take your silence as an answer of 'Affirmative.' No further questions."/
At least in Israel, not everyone who tries succeeds. People get cold feet, wires pull loose...
| 111 |
Gus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:46:31pm |
We need a Constitutional amendment that outlaws people from slamming their apartment doors and playing loud music! I demand it now!
//
| 112 |
Targetpractice Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:47:21pm |
re: #110 SanFranciscoZionist
At least in Israel, not everyone who tries succeeds. People get cold feet, wires pull loose...
They forget Daylight Savings Time...
| 113 |
Ojoe Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:47:56pm |
re: #102 SanFranciscoZionist
Since the laws of the United States allow anyone who wants to to wear pants
Does it even bother to say that?
Some things are so obvious that the law does not mention them.
The building code does not forbid putting a toilet right in a kitchen for instance, although it does prohibit a bathroom off a kitchen with a door between the two.
| 114 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:49:29pm |
I didn't see Newt freaking out over any of the recent FLDS scandals, and demanding federal laws. If the FLDSers were Mormons, how hysterical would he be?
| 115 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:49:34pm |
re: #113 Ojoe
Does it even bother to say that?
Some things are so obvious that the law does not mention them.
The building code does not forbid putting a toilet right in a kitchen for instance, although it does prohibit a bathroom off a kitchen with a door between the two.
Can't I just pee in my sink?
| 116 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:49:48pm |
re: #95 Ojoe
The problem is that they don't want those laws. "In the name of the father" they will remove the laws against sharia so that they can put their own hate based laws in place.
In the end, protecting a group of two people who believe something utterly opposed to my faith is much more important than even the Nazi's of Skokie. We can not trust any government or religion to be 100% honest.
Because no human can be 100% honest.
All we can do is to try to live up to our values, secular & religious. If we do that, well, at least we have a chance. It's hardly perfect but I'd rather that than trying to play the "fight the bad guys with our guns" game. I'd rather die trying something with a chance to succeed.
| 117 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:50:11pm |
re: #113 Ojoe
Does it even bother to say that?
Some things are so obvious that the law does not mention them.
The building code does not forbid putting a toilet right in a kitchen for instance, although it does prohibit a bathroom off a kitchen with a door between the two.
There is, apparently a law stating that lady lawyers can wear pants in court. So in some cases, yes, it's outlined.
| 118 |
Ojoe Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:50:29pm |
| 119 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:53:56pm |
re: #114 SanFranciscoZionist
I didn't see Newt freaking out over any of the recent FLDS scandals, and demanding federal laws. If the FLDSers were Mormons, how hysterical would he be?
I'm sorry, that made NO sense. If the FLDSers were MUSLIMS, howe hysterical would Newt be?
| 120 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:55:14pm |
re: #90 SanFranciscoZionist
I'm thinking. I don't think a federal ban on sharia is absolute enough. I want specifics. Hence, I want amendments to the Constitution demanding the absolute social and legal equality of women and gay folks.
Is Newt going to support me in this?
Of the five people* I can think of who'd be qualified to re-write the Constitution, four are dead and one is Wesley Crusher.
*Frank Zappa, Oscar Wilde, William S. Burroughs, Spalding Gray, and Wil Wheaton
| 121 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:55:41pm |
| 122 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:55:48pm |
re: #120 negativ
Of the five people* I can think of who'd be qualified to re-write the Constitution, four are dead and one is Wesley Crusher.
*Frank Zappa, Oscar Wilde, William S. Burroughs, Spalding Gray, and Wil Wheaton
That's one hell of a list.
| 123 |
Gus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:55:58pm |
re: #119 SanFranciscoZionist
I'm sorry, that made NO sense. If the FLDSers were MUSLIMS, howe hysterical would Newt be?
He, they, would be all over it. If a Muslim man kills his wife it's all over the blogosphere. If a Christian man kills his wife they don't utter a word.
| 124 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:56:59pm |
| 125 |
Gus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:58:00pm |
It's like when those white prisoners escaped in Arizona and went on a crime spree including murder. Not a word from the right wing blogs. Now, had they been from Central America?
| 126 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:58:40pm |
re: #65 SpaceJesus
all the criticisms about these shariah arbitration panels are the same complaints against any arbitration panel ever.
pretty much this forever
| 127 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:59:07pm |
re: #123 Gus 802
He, they, would be all over it. If a Muslim man kills his wife it's all over the blogosphere. If a Christian man kills his wife they don't utter a word.
Damn skippy. A tragedy gets more tragic if it connects the dots for you.
| 128 |
Cato the Elder Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:59:35pm |
A Constitution written by Jayne Cobb would interest me.
| 129 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Sep 19, 2010 9:59:46pm |
re: #120 negativ
You forgot David Lee Roth
| 130 |
Gus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:00:47pm |
re: #127 SanFranciscoZionist
Damn skippy. A tragedy gets more tragic if it connects the dots for you.
Yep. Man shoots dog and we have no story. Muslim shoots dog and we have an international conspiracy to kill the beloved American pet, the dog.
//
| 131 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:03:00pm |
re: #130 Gus 802
Yep. Man shoots dog and we have no story. Muslim shoots dog and we have an international conspiracy to kill the beloved American pet, the dog.
//
We have a woman who calls for a "Draw Mohamed Day" and she has to go into hiding and change her name.
| 132 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:04:33pm |
re: #123 Gus 802
He, they, would be all over it. If a Muslim man kills his wife it's all over the blogosphere. If a Christian man kills his wife they don't utter a word.
I know. I just can't go there. Hurts too much.
The only cop in my hometown who died in the last fucking century was killed in a "domestic disturbance". They named the shelter for him but that's a damned thin medal of honor.
| 133 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:05:19pm |
re: #131 Cannadian Club Akbar
We have a woman who calls for a "Draw Mohamed Day" and she has to go into hiding and change her name.
I can't think of a parallel story for that which is disregarded by the people we're talking about.
I'm not denying real issues of violence and threatened violence coming from religious fundamentalists.
What I can't stand is being shown a news story about a generic family annihilator with a Muslim name, and being told this says something about Islam, or watching people defend religious nuts who they would abhor if they were Muslims.
| 134 |
Cato the Elder Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:05:34pm |
re: #131 Cannadian Club Akbar
We have a woman who calls for a "Draw Mohamed Day" and she has to go into hiding and change her name.
Shhh. Wouldn't want to upset people with the other side of the coin.
| 135 |
Gus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:05:48pm |
re: #131 Cannadian Club Akbar
We have a woman who calls for a "Draw Mohamed Day" and she has to go into hiding and change her name.
I heard about that. But is she the only person in the USA that had to go into hiding and change her name? What about the countless women that are murdered by their ex-husbands? For example.
| 136 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:05:54pm |
re: #124 Cannadian Club Akbar
Can I come over for lunch tomorrow?
///
Only if you bring your sister and/or mom. Nobody has to know.
| 138 |
Gus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:08:06pm |
"Ordinary" perpetrators are still the leading cause of murders in the USA. Not some strange off the wall Fatwa against a cartoonist. I don't sit in my apartment worrying about getting hit by lightening. I worry about falling in my tub or not seeing the cement truck when I drive across an interesection. Probabilities still rule the day.
| 139 |
Varek Raith Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:09:14pm |
re: #138 Gus 802
"Ordinary" perpetrators are still the leading cause of murders in the USA. Not some strange off the wall Fatwa against a cartoonist. I don't sit in my apartment worrying about getting hit by lightening. I worry about falling in my tub or not seeing the cement truck when I drive across an interesection. Probabilities still rule the day.
You know what you really need to watch out for?
PolishCanadianFloridians.
Sneaky bastards.
///
| 140 |
Gus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:10:04pm |
Oh look. Another one. [Link: www.timesfreepress.com...]
| 141 |
Shiplord Kirel Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:10:34pm |
| 142 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:10:46pm |
I should actually complete my thoughts.
Gus said if an Islamist shoots a dog, there is an international conspiracy. No, there's not.
And there is no outrage about a woman who has to change her life for suggesting a cartoon fest.
That's all.
| 143 |
Gus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:11:29pm |
re: #142 Cannadian Club Akbar
I should actually complete my thoughts.
Gus said if an Islamist shoots a dog, there is an international conspiracy. No, there's not.
And there is no outrage about a woman who has to change her life for suggesting a cartoon fest.
That's all.
I thought there was outrage. Isn't that like saying Christians don't have a voice in America?
| 144 |
Cato the Elder Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:12:02pm |
re: #138 Gus 802
Great comfort, I am sure, to the woman who must change her name and uproot her life over threats from bearded motherfucking strangers.
| 145 |
Gus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:12:30pm |
re: #144 Cato the Elder
Great comfort, I am sure, to the woman who must change her name and uproot her life over threats from bearded motherfucking strangers.
Here. Get outraged.
[Link: www.google.com...]
| 148 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:14:31pm |
re: #142 Cannadian Club Akbar
I should actually complete my thoughts.
Gus said if an Islamist shoots a dog, there is an international conspiracy. No, there's not.
And there is no outrage about a woman who has to change her life for suggesting a cartoon fest.
That's all.
We're talking, I think, at cross-purposes.
What I'm bitching about is people who go out of their way, in the blogosphere, to portray generic bad things Muslims do as motivated by Islam.
This does not mean that I don't think people DO bad things that are motivated by Islam.
| 149 |
engineer cat Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:15:34pm |
re: #137 Varek Raith
Religion does weird shit to some people.
conversely, some people do weird shit to religions
i can think of a lot of religions that got off to a perfectly good start until some people got their hands them
| 150 |
Varek Raith Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:16:01pm |
re: #149 engineer dog
conversely, some people do weird shit to religions
i can think of a lot of religions that got off to a perfectly good start until some people got their hands them
Like?
| 151 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:16:39pm |
re: #145 Gus 802
You said international conspiracy. I said international outrage. I crossed the streams.
| 152 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:17:12pm |
re: #137 Varek Raith
Religion does weird shit to some people.
note: this is the Cliff's Notes version of "The End of Faith" By Sam Harris, "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins, "God is Not Great" by Christopher Hitchens, and "Breaking the Spell" by Daniel Dennett.
| 153 |
Gus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:17:39pm |
re: #151 Cannadian Club Akbar
You said international conspiracy. I said international outrage. I crossed the streams.
OK That's fine. You made your point and I made mine.
| 154 |
Targetpractice Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:18:02pm |
re: #137 Varek Raith
Religion does weird shit to some people.
And has them do weird shit. We got Christians who've bombed abortion clinics, Muslims who've bombed cafes, and Scientologists who've bombed at the box office.
/
| 155 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:18:25pm |
re: #153 Gus 802
OK That's fine. You made your point and I made mine.
And Varek keeps calling me names.
/
| 156 |
Varek Raith Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:18:45pm |
It seems we are to be outraged 24/7.
Since something outrageous is always happening somewhere on the planet.
| 157 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:19:00pm |
re: #132 wlewisiii
I know. I just can't go there. Hurts too much.
The only cop in my hometown who died in the last fucking century was killed in a "domestic disturbance". They named the shelter for him but that's a damned thin medal of honor.
It took me awhile to find this, but I'll post it here because this one place that will actually care:
"In Eau Claire, Wisconsin in the mid 1970’s a group of concerned community women developed the idea of a Women’s Community Center. In 1976, before the Women’s Community Center opened, they received a call from the police department asking them to provide shelter for a woman and her children fleeing a domestic violence situation. The group opened the Refuge House in response to that call, and the Refuge House (incorporated in 1977) has been providing services to victims of domestic and/or sexual violence and abuse ever since, as the first domestic abuse shelter in the state of Wisconsin. In the late 1970’s the Refuge House moved into a church parsonage in Eau Claire. On October 6,1982 Eau Claire Police Officer Robert Bolton was killed when responding to a call for help from the Refuge House. Shortly after that the shelter was moved to a larger property in Eau Claire and the name of the organization was changed to Bolton Refuge House in his honor. In 2010 Bolton Refuge House acquired a much larger facility, which has been rennovated to provide comfortable living space for victims of domestic abuse and or sexual assault and their children."
| 158 |
Varek Raith Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:19:28pm |
| 159 |
Targetpractice Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:20:05pm |
re: #156 Varek Raith
It seems we are to be outraged 24/7.
Since something outrageous is always happening somewhere on the planet.
I'm outraged you would say that!
/
| 160 |
engineer cat Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:20:47pm |
re: #150 Varek Raith
Like?
an episcopalian writer once said "it has to be admitted that the religion of jesus was not the same as the religion about jesus"
| 161 |
elizajane Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:21:21pm |
re: #150 Varek Raith
Like?
Christianity. Jesus Christ was a pretty amazing guy. But after he was dead and Paul started to take charge, well, things went downhill. The Values Voters are hardly the first to have completely mangled his ideas.
| 162 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:22:21pm |
| 163 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:22:29pm |
re: #157 wlewisiii
It took me awhile to find this, but I'll post it here because this one place that will actually care:
"In Eau Claire, Wisconsin in the mid 1970’s a group of concerned community women developed the idea of a Women’s Community Center. In 1976, before the Women’s Community Center opened, they received a call from the police department asking them to provide shelter for a woman and her children fleeing a domestic violence situation. The group opened the Refuge House in response to that call, and the Refuge House (incorporated in 1977) has been providing services to victims of domestic and/or sexual violence and abuse ever since, as the first domestic abuse shelter in the state of Wisconsin. In the late 1970’s the Refuge House moved into a church parsonage in Eau Claire. On October 6,1982 Eau Claire Police Officer Robert Bolton was killed when responding to a call for help from the Refuge House. Shortly after that the shelter was moved to a larger property in Eau Claire and the name of the organization was changed to Bolton Refuge House in his honor. In 2010 Bolton Refuge House acquired a much larger facility, which has been rennovated to provide comfortable living space for victims of domestic abuse and or sexual assault and their children."
God be good to him, and may his name be for a blessing on the organization that carries it.
A good cop.
| 165 |
engineer cat Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:24:28pm |
re: #161 elizajane
Christianity. Jesus Christ was a pretty amazing guy. But after he was dead and Paul started to take charge, well, things went downhill. The Values Voters are hardly the first to have completely mangled his ideas.
that's about what i had in mind. the buddha had some pretty good ideas as well
i meet some christians who, in my opinion, still practice the religion of jesus, which i think is a good thing
| 166 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:24:29pm |
re: #161 elizajane
Christianity. Jesus Christ was a pretty amazing guy. But after he was dead and Paul started to take charge, well, things went downhill. The Values Voters are hardly the first to have completely mangled his ideas.
"We had to rebrand!" Paul yells. "We had to make it universally appealing! We had to get organization, and structure! We had to fundraise! You think I wanted to do all that, and get shipwrecked and go to jail? Do ya? Do ya?"
| 167 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:26:04pm |
re: #160 engineer dog
an episcopalian writer once said "it has to be admitted that the religion of jesus was not the same as the religion about jesus"
That's pretty close to my (episcopal) understanding. I'd love a hand full of face to face lessons. Ain't going to happen, alas, but that's a different dance :D
William
| 168 |
freetoken Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:26:07pm |
re: #161 elizajane
... But after he was dead and Paul started to take charge, well, things went downhill. The Values Voters are hardly the first to have completely mangled his ideas.
Many of the very devout and the fundamentalists have a hard time separating Paul/Saul's opinions and ideas from, what shall we say, more official pronouncements.
Over on Biologos a couple of days ago this was brought out where a blogger/writer tried to make that distinction (wrt if Adam had to be a real, identifiable, person). The more religious just couldn't accept the idea that Paul might have been (in our modern scientific and historical-method sense) wrong, simply because Paul (like Jesus before him) didn't know any more than the common knowledge of the day.
| 169 |
ClaudeMonet Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:27:54pm |
re: #154 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
And has them do weird shit. We got Christians who've bombed abortion clinics, Muslims who've bombed cafes, and Scientologists who've bombed at the box office.
/
That's some funny stuff! Up-ding!
Some people make automatic assumptions about the correlation/causation between the ethnicity/preferences/religion/etc. of the person who does something bad and the act itself.
Does a person who commits an act of terror do it because he's a Muslim, or is the religion a side issue? Is it possible that he's a psycho who just happens to be a Muslim?
Does a woman help a clinic bomber because she's a Christian, or is she an evil person who happens to espouse a Christian creed?
Is it also possible that the urge to violence is neither encouraged nor discouraged by one's religion?
I live in an area where the ordinary folks make a lot of assumptions about one's character based on their religion or lack thereof (I don't think this is uncommon, but that doesn't make it any more bearable). I often wonder why they make these assumptions, and if it says something about them rather than the people they're pigeon-holing.
| 170 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:28:42pm |
re: #163 SanFranciscoZionist
girl, you know you're the only girl for me, girl, girl, girl, I want you to girl my girl at 5:30am and then girl girl my girl girl baby baby girl baby babe.
| 171 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:30:12pm |
re: #170 negativ
girl, you know you're the only girl for me, girl, girl, girl, I want you to girl my girl at 5:30am and then girl girl my girl girl baby baby girl baby babe.
?
| 172 |
Gus Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:30:31pm |
You can take the man out of the Gellers and Spencers but you can't take the Gellers and Spencers out of the man.
| 173 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:31:48pm |
re: #163 SanFranciscoZionist
God be good to him, and may his name be for a blessing on the organization that carries it.
A good cop.
There was a time, in this life, that my job was to teach cops. I have never said anything, but Officer Bolton was always in my mind. He was true hero.
| 175 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:39:06pm |
All righty kids, I'm pretty sure I will get to sleep tonight before 5AM. See ya'll tomorrow.:)
| 176 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Sep 19, 2010 10:49:18pm |
| 177 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sun, Sep 19, 2010 11:06:49pm |
Good night, all. God bless everyone here.
| 178 |
Eclectic Infidel Sun, Sep 19, 2010 11:13:33pm |
re: #165 engineer dog
that's about what i had in mind. the buddha had some pretty good ideas as well
i meet some christians who, in my opinion, still practice the religion of jesus, which i think is a good thing
But Jesus was Jewish, so don't you mean Jews?
| 179 |
The Yankee Sun, Sep 19, 2010 11:20:13pm |
This is a classic Fox News move, make something seem like more of a threat then it actually is. Newt is trying to pull a NAMBLA......
| 180 |
engineer cat Sun, Sep 19, 2010 11:37:21pm |
re: #178 eclectic infidel
But Jesus was Jewish, so don't you mean Jews?
mmmm... i think of the form of judaism that jesus preached as the beginning of christianity
conversely, some people do weird shit to religions
i only meant to say that most religions have many forms, some of which have been mutated by people into some weird forms, which don't seem to me to be what the originators had in mind
but as a jew and an atheist, it's really not for me to pass judgment on other people's religions or beliefs
| 181 |
Henchman Ghazi-808 Sun, Sep 19, 2010 11:41:21pm |
This country is falling under Moranic Law.
| 182 |
Summer Seale Mon, Sep 20, 2010 12:08:44am |
Clearly, Newt is being deliberately hysterical to throw red meat to an already over the top hysterical crowd.
However, I think it is important to note something else going on here: They don't see the impossibility of Shari'a taking over because quite clearly, to them, there is no separation between church and state. These are the people who believe that the church should run the laws in this country. Their beef isn't that religion "may be injected" into their political atmosphere, but that another religion might be.
Obviously these idiots don't get it: there is separation between church and state, clearly defined in the Constitution. But again, these people don't believe it. And now they're hysterical with yet another petard of their own making.
It's a vicious round of stupidity all around on their part, and they can't help but fall into it like the dumbasses that they are.
| 183 |
harlequinade Mon, Sep 20, 2010 12:18:24am |
re: #171 SanFranciscoZionist
re: #170 negativ
girl, you know you're the only girl for me, girl, girl, girl, I want you to girl my girl at 5:30am and then girl girl my girl girl baby baby girl baby babe.
?
Isn't that Born Slippy?
| 184 |
mdey Mon, Sep 20, 2010 12:47:39am |
Newt, Name one judge in America that has ever decided a case based on Shariah law? There are none. Stay away from Pammy's blog.
| 185 |
Cheese Eating Victory Monkey Mon, Sep 20, 2010 12:51:30am |
Ironically, Israel tolerates Sharia Law. The country allows autonomous Sharia Courts to decide family law cases within the Muslim community. (This is a holdover arrangement from the Ottoman and British Mandate periods.)
Whether or not the Muslims (especially women) are getting shafted by this system or have an option to appeal to the secular State courts is something I don't know, but no one can claim that Sharia in Israel has encroached on the freedom of non-Muslims.
| 186 |
sagehen Mon, Sep 20, 2010 2:01:15am |
re: #7 ClaudeMonet
Quaker principals? I didn't know they have their own schools!
Sidwell Friends, where Sasha and Malia attend, is a Quaker school. (Chelsea Clinton went there too.
| 187 |
William of Orange Mon, Sep 20, 2010 2:42:44am |
That's my Newt, playing the fearcard again....
Nice poll by the way.
What is the most trusted name in journalism now Walter Cronkite has died?
Answer is obvious.
| 188 |
Unions = Innovation slash slash Mon, Sep 20, 2010 2:54:39am |
re: #187 William of Orange
Colbert was robbed! It is a liberal plot!!!
//
| 189 |
laZardo Mon, Sep 20, 2010 3:26:59am |
Wow, it is truly amazing what conservatives will make up in the denial that there is someone that is actually trying to pursue the real issues affecting Americans today.
| 190 |
freetoken Mon, Sep 20, 2010 3:40:23am |
re: #187 William of Orange
What is it with Iowa? Katie Couric gets 65% there?
Yeah, Stewart is fiercely focused like an attack dog.
| 191 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Sep 20, 2010 4:49:01am |
re: #187 William of Orange
I thought Jon Stewart was a comic.
| 192 |
kaonashi Mon, Sep 20, 2010 5:11:28am |
So what you're saying is that you're objectively pro-sharia?
| 193 |
Jadespring Mon, Sep 20, 2010 5:21:45am |
re: #192 kaonashi
So what you're saying is that you're objectively pro-sharia?
Who is saying this? Who are you commenting to exactly?
| 195 |
Ericus58 Mon, Sep 20, 2010 5:37:13am |
re: #192 kaonashi
So what you're saying is that you're objectively pro-sharia?
Who?
What?
When?
Where?
How?
Get back on the bus.
| 196 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, Sep 20, 2010 5:50:02am |
Good morning, Lizard Nation!
I've posted a brief essay in pages. This highlights some little-known facts about demographics, big cities, and the tea party.
It explains why Sarah Palin's appeal to small town America is so powerful, and why we should not dismiss the tea party as a small but loud gang of insignificant cranks. Cranks they are, small and insignificant they are not. At least that's the potential, and it is probably the reason hard-boiled GOP strategists have not attacked the TPers more vigorously.
| 197 |
Steve Dutch Mon, Sep 20, 2010 5:50:37am |
Someone help me with the logic here. Freaking out over a creche in a city park is rational, passing a law denying legal standing to Sharia (for Allah's sake, learn to spell, people!) is "hysteria." Yes, there are Sharia courts in the UK. They serve as arbitrators for disputes among Muslims, but does anyone really believe they are fair to women?
| 198 |
garhighway Mon, Sep 20, 2010 5:57:52am |
re: #197 SteveDutch
S Freaking out over a creche in a city park is rational,
Did someone here freak out over a creche?
I missed that.
| 199 |
Four More Tears Mon, Sep 20, 2010 5:59:50am |
omg Christine O'Donnell is totally being persecuted by the librul media!!11!
Christine O' Donnell was her own campaign treasurer . . . Oops!
| 200 |
rhino2 Mon, Sep 20, 2010 6:04:04am |
re: #199 JasonA
omg Christine O'Donnell is totally being persecuted by the librul media!!11!
Christine O' Donnell was her own campaign treasurer . . . Oops!
Someone forgot to tell them only Fox News is allowed to talk about O'Donnell, and in a positive light of course.
| 202 |
tnguitarist Mon, Sep 20, 2010 6:06:46am |
Well, off to court. I saw my neighbor's house get broken into over a year ago and now I have to go testify.
| 203 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Sep 20, 2010 6:07:48am |
re: #14 Surabaya Stew
Heh, they sure do! As a graduate from a Quaker institute of learning, I can asure you that they do a pretty good job of it (spelling transgressions, notwithstanding!). Ironic then, that the varsity teams had a well-deserved reputation for agressiveness, go figure...
Do Quakers practice "Ask thee not, tell thou not"?
| 204 |
rhino2 Mon, Sep 20, 2010 6:11:09am |
re: #202 tnguitarist
Well, off to court. I saw my neighbor's house get broken into over a year ago and now I have to go testify.
Efficiency! We're awesome at it.
| 205 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Sep 20, 2010 6:13:26am |
re: #115 Cannadian Club Akbar
Only after you take the dishes out of it.
| 206 |
tnguitarist Mon, Sep 20, 2010 6:13:31am |
re: #204 rhino2
Efficiency! We're awesome at it.
He has been in jail the whole time on another charge, but it's still no excuse. If he's convicted for this, he's looking at 15 years minimum because of his record.
| 207 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 20, 2010 6:14:15am |
re: #206 tnguitarist
He has been in jail the whole time on another charge, but it's still no excuse. If he's convicted for this, he's looking at 15 years minimum because of his record.
I'm betting on a plea deal.
| 208 |
tnguitarist Mon, Sep 20, 2010 6:15:58am |
re: #207 Cannadian Club Akbar
I'm betting on a plea deal.
From what I was told, they already tried that. If they had, I wouldn't have to go today. Nothing would make me happier than to show up and they have a plea worked out, though.
| 209 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 20, 2010 6:16:56am |
re: #208 tnguitarist
From what I was told, they already tried that. If they had, I wouldn't have to go today. Nothing would make me happier than to show up and they have a plea worked out, though.
IIRC, they can plea all the way up to the end. Enjoy your lunch and your $35.
/
| 210 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Sep 20, 2010 6:17:34am |
When we pass the English Is Our Exclusive Language Amendment we can just add a clause saying that the Constitution is our exclusinve source of jurisdiction, and it will all be covered in one fell swoop...
| 212 |
Jeff In Ohio Mon, Sep 20, 2010 6:30:49am |
re: #192 kaonashi
So what you're saying is that you're objectively pro-sharia?
I am as long there's some kind of provision allowing sex on demand, smoking hashish and stoning the stupid.
| 213 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Sep 20, 2010 6:34:30am |
re: #212 Jeff In Ohio
I am as long there's some kind of provision allowing sex on demand, smoking hashish and stoning the stupid.
stoned and stupid is about the same ain't it?
| 214 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 20, 2010 6:35:43am |
re: #213 ralphieboy
stoned and stupid is about the same ain't it?
No. Eventually you stop being stoned.
| 215 |
Obdicut Mon, Sep 20, 2010 6:37:08am |
re: #213 ralphieboy
Feynman, Steven J. Gould, and Carl Sagan would disagree.
| 216 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Sep 20, 2010 6:37:18am |
re: #214 Cannadian Club Akbar
No. Eventually you stop being stoned.
and when they run out of rocks you stop being stoned...
| 217 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 20, 2010 6:38:10am |
re: #216 ralphieboy
and when they run out of rocks you stop being stoned...
When I run out of rocks, I generally rob a 7-11.
/
| 219 |
Obdicut Mon, Sep 20, 2010 6:52:46am |
Wow. So I read a bunch of foodie blogs.
They're going absolutely fucking bugnuts
over the new Senate food safety bill.
This is the most sane take on it:
And it appears that it's been amended since then to allay some of those concerns:
However, the funny part is that the Teaparty types are getting involved too-- because they see it as a step towards federalization and eventual UN takeover of our food supply.
The bill is probably more favorable to factory farms than it is to small producers, because the factory farms can lobby far more effectively. However, from a rough reading, it does seem to do some necessary and sensible things.
The problems with factory farms need to be addressed, certainly, but the amount of outrage over this bill is amazing to me.
I made a page for this:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
| 220 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Sep 20, 2010 6:54:42am |
re: #128 Cato the Elder
A Constitution written by Jayne Cobb would interest me.
"You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with until you understand who's in ruttin' command here."
| 221 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 20, 2010 6:58:21am |
re: #219 Obdicut
I don't have a problem with regs on how food is produced. I think that's why we have an FDA. As long as no one tries to tell me not to eat my Prime Rib medium rare, I'm cool. And there is a reason I don't eat spinach.
| 222 |
Obdicut Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:01:22am |
re: #221 Cannadian Club Akbar
I'd agree, but the factory farms-- Monsanto in particular-- are habitual offenders of every form of common-sense food safety regulation. They get away with it because they have enormous political power.
If it's true that they favor this bill, then this bill will not do a hell of a lot to improve actual food safety.
But the guy who wrote Fast Food Nation is in favor of it, and he's pretty sharp. I dunno.
I just find it interesting that the far left and the far right are both going insane with rage about it.
| 223 |
Jadespring Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:07:01am |
re: #221 Cannadian Club Akbar
I don't have a problem with regs on how food is produced. I think that's why we have an FDA. As long as no one tries to tell me not to eat my Prime Rib medium rare, I'm cool. And there is a reason I don't eat spinach.
How food is produced is pretty important. If you love food and appreciate good food, whether it's just taste or quality and maybe nutrition then how it's grown and gets to the table is an integral part of it. Part of the issue is that most people don't really care or really understand that much about the production systems. As long as it gets to store, is as cheap as possible and doesn't have any 'bugs' in it then yeah who cares.
| 224 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:08:19am |
re: #222 Obdicut
From his op-ed:
EVERY day, about 200,000 Americans are sickened by contaminated food.
I disagree with that statement.
| 225 |
Obdicut Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:11:10am |
re: #224 Cannadian Club Akbar
What do you mean by disagreeing?
| 226 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:12:23am |
How many Americans are contaminated by sickening food?
| 227 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:13:15am |
re: #223 Jadespring
Years ago, a friend crashed at my house because he lost power during a hurricane. He brought the contents of his freezer. He shopped at one of the super cheap supermarkets, buying generic foods. I flipped over a box of Salisbury steaks and checked the nutritional value. My thought was "WTF is in this"!!!
| 228 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:13:57am |
| 229 |
sagehen Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:14:59am |
re: #197 SteveDutch
Someone help me with the logic here. Freaking out over a creche in a city park is rational, passing a law denying legal standing to Sharia (for Allah's sake, learn to spell, people!) is "hysteria." Yes, there are Sharia courts in the UK. They serve as arbitrators for disputes among Muslims, but does anyone really believe they are fair to women?
England does not live by the United States Constitution. Whatever it is in their law that allows for Sharia courts, does not exist here.
We in fact have something specifically to the contrary: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."
So I'm not really worried.
If a Muslim couple goes to a sharia court for a religious divorce, just like if a Jewish couple goes to a Biet Din for a religious divorce, the decisions of those religious courts has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING on the decisions of any state or federal court. None at all. Just like a Catholic couple can be legally divorced, and will be treated under law as divorced, even if the Catholic church, having refused to grant an annulment, considers them still married.
(the State of California also took no notice of my Bat Mitzvah, or my sister-in-law's conversion, or sis-in-law's nephew's christening. Notwithstanding that there are religious courts that care very much about such rituals, and would make rulings as to the standing of those who'd undergone them.)
| 230 |
Obdicut Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:15:37am |
re: #228 Cannadian Club Akbar
I don't think 200K people are sickened every day.
Why don't you think so?
Here's where that's from, the CDC:
[Link: www.cdc.gov...]
| 231 |
Jeff In Ohio Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:15:41am |
| 232 |
Jeff In Ohio Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:16:32am |
re: #217 Cannadian Club Akbar
When I run out of rocks, I generally rob a 7-11.
/
I go to the creek. Now, who's stupid?
| 233 |
Obdicut Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:17:38am |
| 234 |
garhighway Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:20:51am |
re: #228 Cannadian Club Akbar
I don't think 200K people are sickened every day.
Here's the actual study:
[Link: www.cdc.gov...]
| 235 |
Jadespring Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:22:14am |
re: #222 Obdicut
I'd agree, but the factory farms-- Monsanto in particular-- are habitual offenders of every form of common-sense food safety regulation. They get away with it because they have enormous political power.
If it's true that they favor this bill, then this bill will not do a hell of a lot to improve actual food safety.
But the guy who wrote Fast Food Nation is in favor of it, and he's pretty sharp. I dunno.
I just find it interesting that the far left and the far right are both going insane with rage about it.
I wouldn't say it's just the far left or the far that are or have been concerned with parts of this bill. This debate has been going on since at least last winter. The link you posted which lists some of the amendments to the bill has come about because of many groups concerns some of which are quite valid. (The wildlife, set back ones in particular) Part of the issue now and what you might be reading are people who either haven't clued in that many of their concerns have been addressed or are being addressed or just don't trust the amendments. The types that get on the "OMG" track and can't get off of it even when the initial "OMG" actually leads to some of things being addressed. I've been on a bunch of other foodie type blogs where you have people still harping on stuff in the original form of the bill and being met with "It's been changed. Pay attention! Some of the messages are actually getting through" type messages. :)
As for the far right peeps. I think that's more about ANY type of regulation. Plus way back in the winter there was a stupid rumor that whipped through the rightie Tp sphere that the government was going ban backyard gardens and that something in this bill was going to allow them to do it. It went pretty much downhill from there.
| 236 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:22:21am |
re: #230 Obdicut
I think it is easy for a normal person to think that any discomfort is automatically food poisoning. I have had people call were I was working saying the food made them sick withing 1-3 hours. So, I think self diagnosis might be a part of the numbers.
| 237 |
Jeff In Ohio Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:23:12am |
re: #233 Obdicut
You are, if you're going to No-Rock Creek.
/
No such thing in the Ohio Valley. We got sea shell fossils in our creek. Sea Shells! Biblical FLOOD!!11!!! I did find what looks like a fossilized conical shell the other day while pulling rocks to cap the fire pit I built. It's pretty cool.
| 238 |
NJDhockeyfan Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:25:16am |
re: #237 Jeff In Ohio
No such thing in the Ohio Valley. We got sea shell fossils in our creek. Sea Shells! Biblical FLOOD!!11!!! I did find what looks like a fossilized conical shell the other day while pulling rocks to cap the fire pit I built. It's pretty cool.
My aunt & uncle used to awn a farm in Tennessee. I hill on their property was covered in sea shell fossils.
| 239 |
Obdicut Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:25:33am |
re: #236 Cannadian Club Akbar
I think it is easy for a normal person to think that any discomfort is automatically food poisoning. I have had people call were I was working saying the food made them sick withing 1-3 hours. So, I think self diagnosis might be a part of the numbers.
This is research from the CDC, though. It's possible self-diagnosis is part of the problem, but I think they're probably extrapolating minor infections through the major ones that result in hospitalization.
| 240 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:25:40am |
re: #234 garhighway
Here's the actual study:
[Link: www.cdc.gov...]
OK. Next question. How many people get sick by cooking their own food at home and not knowing sanitation. Like cutting up some chicken, running the knife under water, then cutting lettuce? (cross contamination)
| 241 |
Jeff In Ohio Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:26:25am |
re: #238 NJDhockeyfan
My aunt & uncle used to awn a farm in Tennessee. I hill on their property was covered in sea shell fossils.
It's cool stuff and a supreme science moment for the kids.
| 242 |
Obdicut Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:26:26am |
re: #235 Jadespring
Yeah, I guess I missed out on the start of this debate, so I'm getting the whole confused jumble at once. Feel free to update my page with better info if you feel so moved.
| 243 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:26:32am |
re: #236 Cannadian Club Akbar
I think it is easy for a normal person to think that any discomfort is automatically food poisoning. I have had people call were I was working saying the food made them sick withing 1-3 hours. So, I think self diagnosis might be a part of the numbers.
I don't think CDC figures are compile from patients diagnosis or opinions. My ex-wife was working on a CDC funded AIDS and TB project for over 10 years, and if I have this right, the CDC collects medical information from the programs, doctors, nurses and medical staff and data, not from some unscientific polling of the public.
| 244 |
garhighway Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:26:53am |
OT, from Krugman in the NYT: (in two parts)
The Angry Rich
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: September 19, 2010
Anger is sweeping America. True, this white-hot rage is a minority phenomenon, not something that characterizes most of our fellow citizens. But the angry minority is angry indeed, consisting of people who feel that things to which they are entitled are being taken away. And they’re out for revenge.
No, I’m not talking about the Tea Partiers. I’m talking about the rich.
These are terrible times for many people in this country. Poverty, especially acute poverty, has soared in the economic slump; millions of people have lost their homes. Young people can’t find jobs; laid-off 50-somethings fear that they’ll never work again.
Yet if you want to find real political rage — the kind of rage that makes people compare President Obama to Hitler, or accuse him of treason — you won’t find it among these suffering Americans. You’ll find it instead among the very privileged, people who don’t have to worry about losing their jobs, their homes, or their health insurance, but who are outraged, outraged, at the thought of paying modestly higher taxes.
The rage of the rich has been building ever since Mr. Obama took office. At first, however, it was largely confined to Wall Street. Thus when New York magazine published an article titled “The Wail Of the 1%,” it was talking about financial wheeler-dealers whose firms had been bailed out with taxpayer funds, but were furious at suggestions that the price of these bailouts should include temporary limits on bonuses. When the billionaire Stephen Schwarzman compared an Obama proposal to the Nazi invasion of Poland, the proposal in question would have closed a tax loophole that specifically benefits fund managers like him.
Now, however, as decision time looms for the fate of the Bush tax cuts — will top tax rates go back to Clinton-era levels? — the rage of the rich has broadened, and also in some ways changed its character.
For one thing, craziness has gone mainstream. It’s one thing when a billionaire rants at a dinner event. It’s another when Forbes magazine runs a cover story alleging that the president of the United States is deliberately trying to bring America down as part of his Kenyan, “anticolonialist” agenda, that “the U.S. is being ruled according to the dreams of a Luo tribesman of the 1950s.” When it comes to defending the interests of the rich, it seems, the normal rules of civilized (and rational) discourse no longer apply.
At the same time, self-pity among the privileged has become acceptable, even fashionable.
Tax-cut advocates used to pretend that they were mainly concerned about helping typical American families. Even tax breaks for the rich were justified in terms of trickle-down economics, the claim that lower taxes at the top would make the economy stronger for everyone.
(Part two to follow)
| 245 |
Jeff In Ohio Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:27:13am |
re: #240 Cannadian Club Akbar
OK. Next question. How many people get sick by cooking their own food at home and not knowing sanitation. Like cutting up some chicken, running the knife under water, then cutting lettuce? (cross contamination)
Or eating sushi in Ohio.
| 246 |
garhighway Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:27:28am |
Part two:
These days, however, tax-cutters are hardly even trying to make the trickle-down case. Yes, Republicans are pushing the line that raising taxes at the top would hurt small businesses, but their hearts don’t really seem in it. Instead, it has become common to hear vehement denials that people making $400,000 or $500,000 a year are rich. I mean, look at the expenses of people in that income class — the property taxes they have to pay on their expensive houses, the cost of sending their kids to elite private schools, and so on. Why, they can barely make ends meet.
And among the undeniably rich, a belligerent sense of entitlement has taken hold: it’s their money, and they have the right to keep it. “Taxes are what we pay for civilized society,” said Oliver Wendell Holmes — but that was a long time ago.
The spectacle of high-income Americans, the world’s luckiest people, wallowing in self-pity and self-righteousness would be funny, except for one thing: they may well get their way. Never mind the $700 billion price tag for extending the high-end tax breaks: virtually all Republicans and some Democrats are rushing to the aid of the oppressed affluent.
You see, the rich are different from you and me: they have more influence. It’s partly a matter of campaign contributions, but it’s also a matter of social pressure, since politicians spend a lot of time hanging out with the wealthy. So when the rich face the prospect of paying an extra 3 or 4 percent of their income in taxes, politicians feel their pain — feel it much more acutely, it’s clear, than they feel the pain of families who are losing their jobs, their houses, and their hopes.
And when the tax fight is over, one way or another, you can be sure that the people currently defending the incomes of the elite will go back to demanding cuts in Social Security and aid to the unemployed. America must make hard choices, they’ll say; we all have to be willing to make sacrifices.
But when they say “we,” they mean “you.” Sacrifice is for the little people.
| 247 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:27:42am |
| 248 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:28:06am |
re: #243 Walter L. Newton
I don't think CDC figures are compile from patients diagnosis or opinions. My ex-wife was working on a CDC funded AIDS and TB project for over 10 years, and if I have this right, the CDC collects medical information from the programs, doctors, nurses and medical staff and data, not from some unscientific polling of the public.
Here... they can say it better than I can...
In this article, we report new estimates of illnesses, hospitalizations, and deaths due to foodborne diseases in the United States. To ensure their validity, these estimates have been derived by using data from multiple sources, including the newly established Foodborne Diseases Active Surveillance Network (FoodNet). The figures presented include estimates for specific known pathogens, as well as overall estimates for all causes of foodborne illness, known, unknown, infectious, and noninfectious."
| 249 |
Jadespring Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:30:00am |
re: #242 Obdicut
Yeah, I guess I missed out on the start of this debate, so I'm getting the whole confused jumble at once. Feel free to update my page with better info if you feel so moved.
No worries. It's confusing anyways because it's fairly complex. Not only is it about technical issues of production and safety there's a whole bunch of politics to sort through as well. Even within the foodie/farmer world there is a debate about the debate. If my high speed ever comes back to working properly I'll try to post some things. Right now dial up is making any sort of broad info googling very painful.
| 250 |
Jeff In Ohio Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:31:25am |
re: #244 garhighway
Brad DeLong had a rather dense piece on letting the upper income tax cuts expire. I'm still digesting it.
[Link: delong.typepad.com...]
| 251 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:32:19am |
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
I'll repost this.
| 252 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:33:54am |
re: #246 garhighway
And among the undeniably rich, a belligerent sense of entitlement has taken hold: it’s their money, and they have the right to keep it.
A "belligerent sense of entitlement"? Where the hell do people get the idea that the money they earn is theirs anyway??
| 253 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:34:54am |
re: #252 RogueOne
A "belligerent sense of entitlement"? Where the hell do people get the idea that the money they earn is theirs anyway??
Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?
| 254 |
garhighway Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:36:01am |
re: #252 RogueOne
A "belligerent sense of entitlement"? Where the hell do people get the idea that the money they earn is theirs anyway??
More that they have a belligerent sense of entitlement to the Bush tax rates. Like anything else is unfair, unthinkable and unconstitutional.
| 255 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:36:02am |
re: #252 RogueOne
A "belligerent sense of entitlement"? Where the hell do people get the idea that the money they earn is theirs anyway??
The "belligerent sense of entitlement" starts at a income of 250 thousand a year and more. It will be on the 2011 tax forms.
//
| 256 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:36:24am |
re: #253 jamesfirecat
Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?
They are entitled to keep what the rest of us decide they deserve.
| 257 |
NJDhockeyfan Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:36:29am |
Rep. Meeks helped 'jihad' flier
US Rep. Gregory Meeks scolded immigration officials for questioning a Muslim scholar whose nonprofits have been linked to financing terrorism.
The Queens Democrat contacted federal agencies -- finally appealing to then-Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff -- asking why Anwar Hajjaj faced "unwarranted scrutiny" when he returned to the United States from trips abroad through JFK Airport.
Meeks described Hajjaj as a "highly regarded" professor of Islamic studies who leads Friday Muslim prayers at the Capitol.
Meeks said Hajjaj was "a pioneer in distance-based learning of Islam" through the American Open University in Virginia, according to a copy of the Sept. 30, 2006, letter to Chertoff, which was obtained by The Post under a Freedom of Information Act request.
But The Post has learned Hajjaj also headed the Taibah International Aid Association, a charity that has been accused of funding Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda. The group was co-founded by Abdullah A. bin Laden, Osama bin Laden's nephew, who has been investigated for his ties to groups that have funded al Qaeda and Hamas.
Hajjaj is also director of another Virginia-based nonprofit, the World Assembly of Muslim Youth International, or WAMY. It was also founded by bin Laden's nephew and said to support al Qaeda. The group's 2005 federal tax form, the most recent available, is signed by Hajjaj, who is listed as director.
| 258 |
Jeff In Ohio Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:37:55am |
re: #252 RogueOne
A "belligerent sense of entitlement"? Where the hell do people get the idea that the money they earn is theirs anyway??
The ancillary to that is where to people get the idea that because they are more well off then 95% of the other citizens they have no responsibility for the upkeep of the republic.
Of course both statements are designed to provoke. The real issue is and always will be how much responsibility and the answer to that is blowing in the political winds.
| 259 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:38:05am |
re: #256 RogueOne
They are entitled to keep what the rest of us decide they deserve.
Hey its a representative government they have a right to cast their votes and spend their money/time as they see fit to try and achieve whatever ends they desire same as the rest of us.
They just have a lot more money and frequently time to spend.
| 260 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:40:36am |
re: #252 RogueOne
A "belligerent sense of entitlement"? Where the hell do people get the idea that the money they earn is theirs anyway??
Weird idea, eh?
/
| 261 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:42:17am |
re: #237 Jeff In Ohio
No such thing in the Ohio Valley. We got sea shell fossils in our creek. Sea Shells! Biblical FLOOD!!11!!! I did find what looks like a fossilized conical shell the other day while pulling rocks to cap the fire pit I built. It's pretty cool.
Ammonites that were busy going OM NOM NOM on the local trilobite population...
| 262 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:42:23am |
re: #258 Jeff In Ohio
. . . The real issue is and always will be how much responsibility and the answer to that is blowing in the political winds.
Exactly.
| 263 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:44:31am |
re: #261 oaktree
Ammonites that were busy going OM NOM NOM on the local trilobite population...
Until a Permian moonbat with power banned predation. And thus 90% of the species bit the dust.
//
| 264 |
NJDhockeyfan Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:44:48am |
re: #255 Walter L. Newton
The "belligerent sense of entitlement" starts at a income of 250 thousand a year and more. It will be on the 2011 tax forms.
//
The government is much smarter about spending that money than the person that worked & earned it.
//
| 265 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:45:19am |
re: #258 Jeff In Ohio
The ancillary to that is where to people get the idea that because they are more well off then 95% of the other citizens they have no responsibility for the upkeep of the republic.
There isn't any ancillary to the question. The question is do people own what they earn or not? We don't make moral judgements of the poor for not participating in the "upkeep of the republic" so why the double standard?
We can argue tax policy all day, and probably come to some agreements, I happen to believe Krugman is a moron and the statement I quoted is part of the reason why.
| 266 |
Jadespring Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:45:43am |
re: #251 Cannadian Club Akbar
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
I'll repost this.
And I care if regulations could hamper the ability for the small niche farmer that produces amazing prime rib that is heads and tails better in quality then the huge producers because of trying to address food safety issues (which are very important) that are more germane to that sort of large scale production.
Most of the controversy has nothing to do with people being against safety regulations as some base principle but about trying to create a one size fits all approach. The majority of major food borne disease outbreaks in recent years have originated from large scale food production and processing outlets and systems. Those types of issue should be addressed.
| 267 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:46:51am |
re: #265 RogueOne
There isn't any ancillary to the question. The question is do people own what they earn or not? We don't make moral judgements of the poor for not participating in the "upkeep of the republic" so why the double standard?
We can argue tax policy all day, and probably come to some agreements, I happen to believe Krugman is a moron and the statement I quoted is part of the reason why.
Bolded something. I actually think that a lot of people *do* make moral judgments based on economic status.
| 268 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:46:53am |
re: #264 NJDhockeyfan
The government is much smarter about spending that money than the person that worked & earned it.
//
It was that stodgy, inefficient government that was called upon to bail the economy out of the whole that certain upper-income bracket managers managed to get it into...
| 269 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:47:18am |
re: #266 Jadespring
That is why we hear if "nationwide recalls" and not DON'T EAT THE JELLY FROM THE FARMERS MARKET!!:)
| 270 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:47:43am |
Lets be clear about our current financial problems, the problem isn't taxes are to low. The problem is, and has been for decades, spending is to high.
| 271 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:47:59am |
re: #265 RogueOne
There isn't any ancillary to the question. The question is do people own what they earn or not? We don't make moral judgements of the poor for not participating in the "upkeep of the republic" so why the double standard?
We can argue tax policy all day, and probably come to some agreements, I happen to believe Krugman is a moron and the statement I quoted is part of the reason why.
The double standard is because the poor don't have enough to get by on, so if we took from them their standard of living/the amount of happiness they have would plummet.
Where as on the other hand I don't think how happy Bill Gates is at $53 billion dollars of net worth would be that much different from how happy he would be if his net worth was $50 billion dollars.
So the double standard exists because our nation is trying to cause as little suffering as possible as it obtains the funds needed to keep it running....
| 272 |
goddamnedfrank Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:48:08am |
re: #252 RogueOne
A "belligerent sense of entitlement"? Where the hell do people get the idea that the money they earn is theirs anyway??
re: #260 reine.de.tout
Weird idea, eh?
/
"The man of great wealth owes a peculiar obligation to the State,
because he derives special advantages from the mere existence of
government" - Teddy Roosevelt
In other words: With great compensation comes commensurate obligation.
| 273 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:49:19am |
re: #270 RogueOne
Lets be clear about our current financial problems, the problem isn't taxes are to low. The problem is, and has been for decades, spending is to high.
What should we cut spending in then?
| 274 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:49:36am |
re: #267 oaktree
I'm sure they do but I have yet to hear a politician say "The poor need to pull their own weight". They might think it, they are the elitists, but they'd never argue that position. OTOH, they're more than willing to say "Rich people are greedy and it's un-american to not give more of your earnings to the government".
| 275 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:50:22am |
re: #273 jamesfirecat
What should we cut spending in then?
We spent a trillion dollars last year that sure would be nice to have back.
| 276 |
What, me worry? Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:50:39am |
re: #219 Obdicut
The truth is, we have had major problems with our food supply over the last couple decades. Most of the problem started by the deregulation of the FDA, under who's administration, I'll let you guess.
[Link: www.ncpolicywatch.com...]
Who's responsible?
Evans and Betts are right to lay blame for these most recent health disasters at the feet of FDA. A recent Associated Press study notes that the agency has been devolving many of its responsibilities to underfunded state-level officials for years.
"State investigators performed more than half the Food and Drug Administration's food inspections in 2007, according to an AP analysis of FDA data. That represents a dramatic rise from a decade ago, when FDA investigators performed three out of four of the federal government's inspections."
And here [Link: www.sodahead.com...]
Reducing Enforcement. Regulations are only effective if they are enforced vigorously. Bush appointees routinely worked to weaken enforcement. For example, they cut the civil penalties that polluters had to pay by half – weakening the incentives to comply with environmental protection rules. Another example was the reduction of inspectors and inspections in areas like food safety and mine safety. In 2003, the FDA conducted over 11,000 inspections a year for food safety – a figure that fell to 6,000 by 2007.
| 277 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:51:32am |
re: #275 RogueOne
We spent a trillion dollars last year that sure would be nice to have back.
What did we spend the trillion on exactly?
Because if you're ragging on the Stimulus this is gonna get feisty....
| 278 |
Obdicut Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:51:48am |
re: #265 RogueOne
There isn't any ancillary to the question. The question is do people own what they earn or not?
No, it's not. That's a false dichotomy.
Or if you're really philosophically committed to the idea that people own whatever money they make-- money that only exists because it's backed by the US government, money that can be used to purchase possessions who's right to which is safeguarded by the US government, yes, people own what they earn. They also owe taxes.
| 279 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:52:06am |
re: #272 goddamnedfrank
"The man of great wealth owes a peculiar obligation to the State,
because he derives special advantages from the mere existence of
government" - Teddy Roosevelt
In other words: With great compensation comes commensurate obligation.
Next sentence...
"Not only should he recognize this obligation in the way he leads his daily life and in the way he earns and spends his money, but it should also be recognized by the way in which he pays for the protection the State gives him."
(Teddy Roosevelt - 1906 State of the Union address)
| 280 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:52:23am |
re: #273 jamesfirecat
What should we cut spending in then?
Lets start with not INCREASING spending before we worry about what to "cut"
| 281 |
Obdicut Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:52:35am |
re: #279 Walter L. Newton
Or...
"Not only should he recognize this obligation in the way he leads his daily life and in the way he earns and spends his money, but it should also be recognized by the way in which he pays for the protection the State gives him."
| 282 |
Jeff In Ohio Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:54:19am |
re: #265 RogueOne
There isn't any ancillary to the question. The question is do people own what they earn or not? We don't make moral judgements of the poor for not participating in the "upkeep of the republic" so why the double standard?
We can argue tax policy all day, and probably come to some agreements, I happen to believe Krugman is a moron and the statement I quoted is part of the reason why.
Sorry, my bad. I meant antithesis.
Taxes are the price of being part of a Federal Republic. There are many things high income earners take advantage of from sea ports to interstate highways to national defense to keeping the homeless from clogging the sidewalks that enable their high wages and also have to be paid for. How much is the only question.
Poor people do participate in the upkeep of the republic.
| 283 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:54:23am |
re: #280 sattv4u2
Lets start with not INCREASING spending before we worry about what to "cut"
So a spending freeze?
In the middle of an economic downturn?
That'll work well.....
| 284 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:54:37am |
re: #276 marjoriemoon
Most of the problem started by the deregulation of the FDA, under who's administration, I'll let you guess.
Thank God. We haven't had a BLAME BUSH post in awhile! I was getting worried!
| 285 |
Jadespring Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:54:41am |
re: #269 Cannadian Club Akbar
That is why we hear if "nationwide recalls" and not DON'T EAT THE JELLY FROM THE FARMERS MARKET!!:)
Well there are quite a few "Don't eat jelly from the farmers market" types as well. :D Mostly they are local issues though so they don't get widespread coverage. Like muncipalities that pass by-laws against bake sales and selling items at things like church fundraisers as well as market unless they are produced in a commercial kitchen and have all the paperwork. Most urban places seem to pursue these sorts of things. Technically where I lived before I wasn't allowed to sell my salsa and jam at a local market. Here it's no problem. Not that it stops people from doing it though.
| 286 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:55:25am |
re: #283 jamesfirecat
So a spending freeze?
In the middle of an economic downturn?
That'll work well...
Yeah ,, because the "stimulus" has been such a huge success (cept the part about incresing the debt and kicking the can down the road!)
| 287 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:55:25am |
re: #281 Obdicut
Or...
Or... from the conclusion of that paragraph...
Whenever we, as a people, undertake to remodel our taxation system along the lines suggested, we must make it clear beyond peradventure that our aim is to distribute the burden of supporting the Government more equitably than at present; that we intend to treat rich man and poor man on a basis of absolute equality, and that we regard it as equally fatal to true democracy to do or permit injustice to the one as to do or permit injustice to the other.
| 288 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:56:11am |
re: #284 sattv4u2
Most of the problem started by the deregulation of the FDA, under who's administration, I'll let you guess.
Thank God. We haven't had a BLAME BUSH post in awhile! I was getting worried!
Well HRWATPWRTCITG....
He Really Was A Terrible President Who Ran The Country Into the Ground.
| 289 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:56:40am |
re: #272 goddamnedfrank
In other words: With great compensation comes commensurate obligation.
Teddy was talking about a tax rate of 1%.
| 290 |
sagehen Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:56:40am |
re: #284 sattv4u2
Most of the problem started by the deregulation of the FDA, under who's administration, I'll let you guess.
Thank God. We haven't had a BLAME BUSH post in awhile! I was getting worried!
Don't be silly, that was a BLAME REAGAN post.
| 291 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:56:56am |
re: #285 Jadespring
Agreed. I thought about trying to sell my soups locally. But I have 3 different commercial kitchens I could have rented from. But you're right. Some just say screw it.
| 292 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:57:35am |
re: #283 jamesfirecat
So a spending freeze?
In the middle of an economic downturn?
That'll work well...
and btw ,, it works in businesses across the world. Hold the line on spending (payroll,,, outsourcing ,, etc) ,, do more inhouse instead of contracting it out ,,etc etc
| 293 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:57:51am |
re: #286 sattv4u2
Yeah ,, because the "stimulus" has been such a huge success (cept the part about incresing the debt and kicking the can down the road!)
The idea is to get the economy going again through stimulus, then once it's back down to around 5% instead of being ready to jump into double digits we can worry about the deficit.
Worrying about the deficit in the middle of an economic down turn like this is a lot like worrying about how the wooden buckets being used to bail water out of a sinking boat are leaving dents in your hull as they slam against it to collect water....
| 294 |
NJDhockeyfan Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:58:14am |
| 295 |
Jadespring Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:59:45am |
re: #291 Cannadian Club Akbar
Agreed. I thought about trying to sell my soups locally. But I have 3 different commercial kitchens I could have rented from. But you're right. Some just say screw it.
It always tickles me when it the older church type ladies saying screw it. Rebels that they are. :)
FREE THE JAM!
| 296 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:00:35am |
re: #292 sattv4u2
and btw ,, it works in businesses across the world. Hold the line on spending (payroll,,, outsourcing ,, etc) ,, do more inhouse instead of contracting it out ,,etc etc
Here's the problem.
Businesses are already doing that.
When businesses do that, jobs dry up... the economy starts to slow down.
Fewer people have jobs, so fewer people have money to spend on things.
Fewer people buying things mean that the demand for goods goes down and so people start making fewer things and the cycle keeps spinning itself over and over again.
Its the governments job to prime the pump and get some money into people's pockets while hopefully also providing some infrastructure of value at the same time through stimulus spending.
If the government doesn't start up our economy who will?
| 297 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:00:37am |
re: #295 Jadespring
It always tickles me when it the older church type ladies saying screw it. Rebels that they are. :)
FREE THE JAM!
JAM FOR JESUS!!!
/
| 298 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:01:05am |
re: #290 sagehen
Don't be silly, that was a BLAME REAGAN post.
Sorry ,, but the dates on her post were 2003 and 2007
In 2003, the FDA conducted over 11,000 inspections a year for food safety – a figure that fell to 6,000 by 2007.
| 299 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:02:15am |
re: #294 NJDhockeyfan
There is plenty of wasteful spending going on. It's been happening for years. It's not hard to find examples or our tax dollars being wasted.
Here is a good place to start.
The problem I'm having is that I see at the moment a lot of X dollars for the subject/business of Y.
I guess I'll have to do more research before I can say for sure if the money is being misspent or not....
| 300 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:03:06am |
re: #287 Walter L. Newton
Or... from the conclusion of that paragraph...
Whenever we, as a people, undertake to remodel our taxation system along the lines suggested, we must make it clear beyond peradventure that our aim is to distribute the burden of supporting the Government more equitably than at present; that we intend to treat rich man and poor man on a basis of absolute equality, and that we regard it as equally fatal to true democracy to do or permit injustice to the one as to do or permit injustice to the other.
"The rich and the poor have the equal right to sleep under bridges." --Anatole France
| 302 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:04:47am |
re: #296 jamesfirecat
When businesses do that, jobs dry up
Incorrect
My company employs about 15K people
We haven't had a pay raise in 2 years
We also haven't cut staffing in that same timeframe
Our largest cometitors have done the same over the same timeframe
None of them (and us) has "cut spending". They have just held the line on it.
The "cut spending" in gov't is a BoogeyMan the left has always used
((
THEY'RE GOING TO CUT ELDERLY// CHILDRENS// FIRE// POLICE programs)))
| 303 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:05:03am |
| 304 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:05:33am |
re: #279 Walter L. Newton
"The man of great wealth owes a peculiar obligation to the State,
because he derives special advantages from the mere existence of
government" - Teddy RooseveltIn other words: With great compensation comes commensurate obligation.
Next sentence...
"Not only should he recognize this obligation in the way he leads his daily life and in the way he earns and spends his money, but it should also be recognized by the way in which he pays for the protection the State gives him."
(Teddy Roosevelt - 1906 State of the Union address)
In the good old days the noblemen - the priveleged members of society - were required to provide their personal presence on the battlefield and spare troops to assist the king at war, thus risking their lives and their estates.
| 305 |
goddamnedfrank Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:05:33am |
re: #281 Obdicut
Or...
Walter is like a spastic colon, willing to spray out all kinds of shit hoping that some of it will stick, ridiculous non-thoughts are his specialty.
re: #287 Walter L. Newton
Or... from the conclusion of that paragraph...
Whenever we, as a people, undertake to remodel our taxation system along the lines suggested, we must make it clear beyond peradventure that our aim is to distribute the burden of supporting the Government more equitably than at present; that we intend to treat rich man and poor man on a basis of absolute equality, and that we regard it as equally fatal to true democracy to do or permit injustice to the one as to do or permit injustice to the other.
Teddy Roosevelt in 1906:
It is important to this people to grapple with the problems connected with the amassing of enormous fortunes, and the use of those fortunes, both corporate and individual, in business. We should discriminate in the sharpest way between fortunes well-won and fortunes ill-won; between those gained as an incident to performing great services to the community as a whole, and those gained in evil fashion by keeping just within the limits of mere law-honesty.
Of course no amount of charity in spending such fortunes in any way compensates for misconduct in making them. As a matter of personal conviction, and without pretending to discuss the details or formulate the system, I feel that we shall ultimately have to consider the adoption of some such scheme as that of a progressive tax on all fortunes, beyond a certain amount either given in life or devised or bequeathed upon death to any individual — a tax so framed as to put it out of the power of the owner of one of these enormous fortunes to hand on more than a certain amount to any one individual; the tax, of course, to be imposed by the National and not the State Government.
Such taxation should, of course, be aimed merely at the inheritance or transmission in their entirety of those fortunes swollen beyond all healthy limits.
TR in 1907:
When our tax laws are revised the question of an income tax and an inheritance tax should receive the careful attention of our legislators. In my judgment both of these taxes should be part of our system of Federal taxation. I speak diffidently about the income tax because one scheme for an income tax was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court; while in addition it is a difficult tax to administer in its practical working, and great care would have to be exercised to see that it was not evaded by the very men whom it was most desirable to have taxed, for if so evaded it would, of course, be worse than no tax at all; as the least desirable of all taxes is the tax which bears heavily upon the honest as compared with the dishonest man. Nevertheless, a graduated income tax of the proper type would be a desirable feature of Federal taxation, and it is to be hoped that one may be devised which the Supreme Court will declare constitutional.
The inheritance tax, however, is both a far better method of taxation, and far more important for the purpose of having the fortunes of the country bear in proportion to their increase in size a corresponding increase and burden of taxation. The Government has the absolute right to decide as to the terms upon which a man shall receive a bequest or devise from another, and this point in the devolution of property is especially appropriate for the imposition of a tax.
| 306 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:05:45am |
| 307 |
NJDhockeyfan Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:06:07am |
| 308 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:06:17am |
re: #301 Cannadian Club Akbar
Look up Jonh Murtha.
Yeah this guy looks like a major jackass.
Though that said, corruption aside, do you guys think that ear marks are in and of themselves a bad thing?
| 309 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:06:43am |
re: #305 goddamnedfrank
Walter is like a spastic colon
We can alsways count on you to raise the level of discourse here !
| 310 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:07:29am |
re: #302 sattv4u2
When businesses do that, jobs dry up
Incorrect
My company employs about 15K people
We haven't had a pay raise in 2 years
We also haven't cut staffing in that same timeframe
Our largest cometitors have done the same over the same timeframeNone of them (and us) has "cut spending". They have just held the line on it.
The "cut spending" in gov't is a BoogeyMan the left has always used
((
But you have to admit that a lot of people have lost jobs and that your business isn't creating any new ones right?
When the private market falters the government has to pick up the slack... we saw that in the 20's 30's and 40's.
What got us out of the Great Depression after all?
| 311 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:07:57am |
| 312 |
NJDhockeyfan Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:08:12am |
re: #308 jamesfirecat
Yeah this guy looks like a major jackass.
Though that said, corruption aside, do you guys think that ear marks are in and of themselves a bad thing?
I think so. If the politicians think their projects are so damn important, write a bill so everyone can look at it and put it up for a vote.
| 313 |
lawhawk Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:08:13am |
Greets and saluts. Folks are still cleaning up from last week's tornadoes and macrobursts, but we've got hurricane Ahmadinejad in town to address the general assembly of the UN in the usual opening sessions statements. Plenty of hot air to follow - as usual.
As for the topic at hand, what part of religious freedom does Gingrich not understand. Muslims, like Jews and Christians, are free to practice their religion as provided and protected under the 1st Amendment. A ban on sharia would never pass constitutional muster - and Gingrich knows (or should know) it. He's just demagoguing the issue.
Still, some religious practices can and have been banned - as was the case with polygamy - that directly affected the religious practices of Mormons in the 1800s.
Banning the entirety of Islamic jurisprudence (which is essentially what sharia is) would be so overbroad as to be unconstitutional.
| 314 |
Jadespring Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:08:36am |
re: #291 Cannadian Club Akbar
Agreed. I thought about trying to sell my soups locally. But I have 3 different commercial kitchens I could have rented from. But you're right. Some just say screw it.
At one point some of my jellies and salsa were a real hit at the market. I had a couple of stores interested in carrying them. I ended up not doing it though because after I crunched the numbers on the costs moving into that realm (more regulations and commercial cert) it would have had to have been a full time job to make it worthwhile. I thought about it pretty seriously and decided that I didn't want to do it full-time.
Now though because I live on a farm property I can make and sell pretty much anything that I produce at the farm as long as it doesn't go past the gate. So technically I could have my own farm store with all those sorts of things in it and not have to do all of that other stuff. For instance I can sell my eggs in my driveway but it's illegal for me to walk them 1/2 a mile down the road and sell them at the weekly farmers market.
| 315 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:08:40am |
re: #310 jamesfirecat
But you have to admit that a lot of people have lost jobs and that your business isn't creating any new ones right?
When the private market falters the government has to pick up the slack... we saw that in the 20's 30's and 40's.
What got us out of the Great Depression after all?
WW2?
| 316 |
Obdicut Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:08:47am |
re: #305 goddamnedfrank
Interesting. I didn't know Roosevelt was so strongly in favor of a large inheritance tax. It makes sense, given his sense of fair play. He wanted both taxes on wealth, in the form of the estate tax, and taxes on income.
He always was a pretty farsighted dude. He even notes that loopholes would be the largest problem with the inheritance tax.
| 317 |
NJDhockeyfan Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:08:58am |
re: #311 Cannadian Club Akbar
Not to mention tens of flights a day.
They are up to 10 flights a day now?
| 318 |
Obdicut Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:09:08am |
| 319 |
HappyWarrior Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:09:11am |
Muslims are what 1% of the American population? Seriously Newt just stop trying to scare people. It's more pathetic than you trying to act some templar of values and that is saying something.
| 320 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:09:23am |
re: #310 jamesfirecat
But you have to admit that a lot of people have lost jobs and that your business isn't creating any new ones right?
When the private market falters the government has to pick up the slack... we saw that in the 20's 30's and 40's.
What got us out of the Great Depression after all?
If work has permanently become a scarce and valuable prize, it's time to cut the 40-hour week to 35.
| 321 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:10:22am |
re: #318 Obdicut
Nope. We were well into the recovery before WWII.
Before WWI started or before we joined? We made a lot of money selling arms and supplies to Europe.
| 322 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:10:40am |
re: #314 Jadespring
I can cook out of my house if I can convert my kitchen up to commercial standards.
| 324 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:10:50am |
re: #315 Cannadian Club Akbar
WW2?
Exactly?
And do you know what came with WW2?
MASSIVE government spending because a lot of people got drafted (talk about a shovel ready job!)
MASSIVE government spending on paying people to build tanks, planes, ships and so on and so forth.
And as people who were drafted left that suddenly shifted the balance in the employees favor because the market of employable people still around to do work was smaller.
It was the greatest stimulus imaginable.
| 325 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:11:26am |
re: #299 jamesfirecat
We are in debt up to our ears because of spending, not tax rates. During the last 8 years alone government spending went up by 104% and now Obama is doubling down on the stupid.
The Obama administration is putting the country on a course over the next decade to spend at levels unseen since World War II, according to a Congressional Budget Office analysis of Obama's budget plan. By 2020, the CBO expects federal spending to account for 25.2 percent of GDP -- higher than any year in modern history, except three during the war.At the same time, Obama's tax plans -- which include letting Bush's tax cuts on the rich expire -- do little to boost federal revenues as a share of GDP. The result: unprecedented deficits year after year for the next decade.
[Link: www.aolnews.com...]
Overspending gave control of the government to the dems and they're about to give it back to the repubs because they're not any better dealing with other peoples money.
| 326 |
Ericus58 Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:11:34am |
re: #305 goddamnedfrank
"Walter is like a spastic colon, willing to spray out all kinds of shit hoping that some of it will stick, ridiculous non-thoughts are his specialty."
Your lame personal attacks are getting old.
| 327 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:12:12am |
re: #326 Ericus58
"Walter is like a spastic colon, willing to spray out all kinds of shit hoping that some of it will stick, ridiculous non-thoughts are his specialty."
Your lame personal attacks are getting old.
Which is sad because what followed after it was an interesting and informative quote....
| 328 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:12:27am |
re: #324 jamesfirecat
Exactly?
And do you know what came with WW2?
MASSIVE government spending because a lot of people got drafted (talk about a shovel ready job!)
MASSIVE government spending on paying people to build tanks, planes, ships and so on and so forth.
And as people who were drafted left that suddenly shifted the balance in the employees favor because the market of employable people still around to do work was smaller.
It was the greatest stimulus imaginable.
And massive government intereference in the market: wage and price controls, rationing food and and fuel as well as and restricting access to various strategic materials...
| 329 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:13:47am |
re: #328 ralphieboy
And massive government intereference in the market: wage and price controls, rationing food and and fuel as well as and restricting access to various strategic materials...
The question is of course, is the cure worse than the disease?
I have a fear of needles but I still roll up my shoulder, look away, and counted to 100 when they were giving out H1N1 shots at my college for example...
| 330 |
Jeff In Ohio Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:14:16am |
OK. I have to go tear down some walls to make a new space for our new high efficiency wood stove we're buying partly with our Bush middle class tax cut I saved from last April. It will not only burn wood 3 times longer, emitting 75% less pollution then our old Earth Stove (prolly more), but we'll get a 30% tax credit on it due to the stimulus bill. Bush and Obama, enabling our future. Look Ma, I'm bi-partisan!
In the future, I can look forward to doing a 1/3 less work cutting and splitting wood, burning less oil (because I'm not worn out by splitting wood and just don't want to split anymore in March), I'll have more free time to do something more financially productive then splitting wood and most likely save even more money that I can use to spend on shit i don't need (like a Kindle for my book hungry daughter or a new roof for the shed or saving for that 4kw solar array I've been dreaming of or fixing my old jazz guitbox or recapping some old RCA console pres). OK I really need to put a new roof on the shed.
When things are really rosy, I'm going to go to Wal-Mart, flash my AARP card and punch someone and see if I get arrested.
| 331 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:14:27am |
re: #328 ralphieboy
And massive government intereference in the market: wage and price controls, rationing food and and fuel as well as and restricting access to various strategic materials...
And a sense that we were one country, as the sons of the Bush and Kennedy clans went out to face enemy fire.
| 332 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:14:39am |
re: #325 RogueOne
We are in debt up to our ears because of spending, not tax rates. During the last 8 years alone government spending went up by 104% and now Obama is doubling down on the stupid.
[Link: www.aolnews.com...]
Overspending gave control of the government to the dems and they're about to give it back to the repubs because they're not any better dealing with other peoples money.
Seeing as we've got an economic down turn not seen since before WW2 I for one feel increased government spending is exactly the right response the situation.
So long as that spending is going to good and useful causes....
| 333 |
Ericus58 Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:15:13am |
re: #327 jamesfirecat
Which is sad because what followed after it was an interesting and informative quote...
I agree, Frankie can post a good opinion when addressing a topic.
Then he goes and blows it up.
| 334 |
Jeff In Ohio Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:16:17am |
re: #333 Ericus58
I agree, Frankie can post a good opinion when addressing a topic.
Then he goes and blows it up.
But in a uniquely colorful way!
| 335 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:17:49am |
re: #331 Decatur Deb
And a sense that we were one country, as the sons of the Bush and Kennedy clans went out to face enemy fire.
So it took state socialism to breed our "Greatest Generation"?
Yegads, the implications are pretty scary.
| 336 |
Jadespring Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:18:01am |
re: #322 Cannadian Club Akbar
I can cook out of my house if I can convert my kitchen up to commercial standards.
When I eventually build a garage/workshop I'll probably build a small commercial kitchen as well. I looked into doing it with my kitchen remodel and it's not super difficult. The main things (at least here) are a commercial dishwater, proper storage and separate sink for hand washing. Not a big deal really. Ended up not doing it though because it is an open kitchen and I would have to build walls to keep the cats and dogs out. Or get rid of the pets and that sure isn't going to happen. :)
| 337 |
Ericus58 Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:18:33am |
re: #334 Jeff In Ohio
But in a uniquely colorful way!
That made me laugh!
I'd give him style points if not for the personal vindictiveness.
| 338 |
Obdicut Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:19:22am |
re: #321 ralphieboy
Before WWI started or before we joined? We made a lot of money selling arms and supplies to Europe.
Before it started.
Here:
Image: 20081117-ef7d74m2gnw9citedndea81xqh.jpg
Then the economy started contracting again after government spending was cut-- and then the capital flight from Europe and war spending helped pull us out of that hole.
| 339 |
M. Dubious Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:19:27am |
WTF?! Did not read the whole thing, but shit, SHARIA IS TAKING OVER?!?!?! Man, I look away for one second, and this is what happens.
| 340 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:20:46am |
re: #335 ralphieboy
So it took state socialism to breed our "Greatest Generation"?
Yegads, the implications are pretty scary.
The problem is that people frequently insist on viewing socialism as black and white.
It's not, it's a sliding scale.
On one end we have Andrew Ryan's Rapture and on the other hand we have, well lets say Sophia Lamb's rapture for lack of a better example.
Clearly the US is in the middle somewhere between pure socialism and pure capitalism.
One can in fact argue that we should slide a few more steps towards S without wanting to have the government run everything....
| 341 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:21:47am |
re: #338 Obdicut
Before it started.
Here:
Image: 20081117-ef7d74m2gnw9citedndea81xqh.jpg
Then the economy started contracting again after government spending was cut-- and then the capital flight from Europe and war spending helped pull us out of that hole.
And I said WW@. So I was kinda right?
| 343 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:22:17am |
re: #324 jamesfirecat
Actually, many European countries were coming out of the depression well before the US and well before WW2.
Some now theorize the New Deal actually exteded the depression here in the states
| 344 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:22:21am |
re: #332 jamesfirecat
Seeing as we've got an economic down turn not seen since before WW2 I....
"Next Time Somebody Says “This is the worst meltdown since the Great Depression” and You Think “That’s bullshit”…"
[Link: reason.com...]
Quarterly GDP growth entered into its most degenerating two-year period since the Great Depression. Over a seven-quarter period from 1973 to 1975, GDP went down five times, which meant that there was at least one recession and probably another in the period, making for a double dip, as in 1969-1970. In early 1975, GDP was still 3 percent off the 1973 mark, an enduring contraction the likes of which had been completely unknown during the quarter century of postwar prosperity. And in the recession years of 1974 and 1975, consumer prices somehow increased at World War I rates – 11 percent and 9 percent, respectively. At the end of 1975, the economy was only marginally bigger than it had been in 1973, and prices were 25 percent higher.
| 345 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:22:42am |
re: #337 Ericus58
That made me laugh!
I'd give him style points if not for the personal vindictiveness.
You're giving him to much credit... clipping and pasting, linking not thinking, that's style?
| 346 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:23:29am |
re: #312 NJDhockeyfan
I think so. If the politicians think their projects are so damn important, write a bill so everyone can look at it and put it up for a vote.
That is a sound and reasonable argument that I can agree with you on.
| 347 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:23:36am |
re: #343 sattv4u2
Actually, many European countries were coming out of the depression well before the US and well before WW2.
Some now theorize the New Deal actually exteded the depression here in the states
Would those be the same people who theorize that liberalism is fascism?
| 349 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:24:59am |
re: #347 Decatur Deb
Would those be the same people who theorize that liberalism is fascism?
Doubtful
[Link: wiki.answers.com...]
[Link: www.ask.com...]
| 350 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:25:15am |
re: #340 jamesfirecat
I do agree, "social" is not immediately "socilist". I do tend to draw the line at the government actively participating in business enterprises.
Which means that I am in favor of enough government regulation to prevent the situation arising again in which the state is called on to bail out private corporations by purchasing shares of them in order to prevent economic (and social) catastrophies.
| 351 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:25:23am |
| 352 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:26:17am |
BBIAB ,, I too have to do some "elitist work"
| 353 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:28:55am |
re: #349 sattv4u2
Doubtful
[Link: wiki.answers.com...]
[Link: www.ask.com...]
I could have written those, under a false flag. It's all part of the Comintern/Soros axis.
| 354 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:30:32am |
All righty. I got to get ready for work. My Mondays REALLY REALLY suck.
| 355 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:30:53am |
re: #304 ralphieboy
In the good old days the noblemen - the priveleged members of society - were required to provide their personal presence on the battlefield and spare troops to assist the king at war, thus risking their lives and their estates.
And that went by the wayside pretty quickly with the nobility paying scutage instead of actually showing up with a retinue. Which made the king happier since it was money that could be spent a bit more flexibly, and the noble happier since he didn't put life and limb at risk on a seasonal basis (as well as having to maintain military force beyond local enforcement means in order to meet his vassal obligation.)
One side-effect of playing an Arthurian-based RPG is that I ended up reading multiple essays on feudal period financial systems (e.g. money/goods flow up the line from peasants via the various levels of nobility/vassalage to the king.) The rules for squeezing the peasants on your lands for a bit extra were interesting.
| 356 |
sagehen Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:31:24am |
re: #316 Obdicut
Interesting. I didn't know Roosevelt was so strongly in favor of a large inheritance tax. It makes sense, given his sense of fair play. He wanted both taxes on wealth, in the form of the estate tax, and taxes on income.
He always was a pretty farsighted dude. He even notes that loopholes would be the largest problem with the inheritance tax.
The inheritance tax wasn't really about gov't revenue, that was just a bonus. The main point was to prevent the rise of a hereditary aristocracy.
Andrew Carnegie was also strongly in favor of an inheritance tax, but he believed it would be revenue-neutral to the gov't. He wanted it so that people who'd earned great fortunes would be forced to spend it all on something useful before they died. (Libraries and university literature departments were Carnegie's personal favorite thing, but I bet he'd be pretty impressed with Bill Gates using his money to eradicate malaria).
| 357 |
Obdicut Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:32:41am |
re: #341 Cannadian Club Akbar
And I said WW@. So I was kinda right?
Kind of. But the only reason we had a double-dip recession then was cutbacks in the New Deal programs. The second recession was different from the first depression.
| 359 |
Obdicut Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:33:42am |
re: #356 sagehen
Yeah, most of the founders, as well, were very worried about a moneyed aristocracy rising, as well as the power and influence of corporations.
A lot of their actual writings on taxation and civic responsibility seem to get overlooked in place of simple rhetoric from first principles.
| 360 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:35:31am |
re: #356 sagehen
The inheritance tax wasn't really about gov't revenue, that was just a bonus. The main point was to prevent the rise of a hereditary aristocracy.
Andrew Carnegie was also strongly in favor of an inheritance tax, but he believed it would be revenue-neutral to the gov't. He wanted it so that people who'd earned great fortunes would be forced to spend it all on something useful before they died. (Libraries and university literature departments were Carnegie's personal favorite thing, but I bet he'd be pretty impressed with Bill Gates using his money to eradicate malaria).
Carnegie is a wonderful source of conflict for us Pittsburgh lefties. We usually see him as evil incarnate, but I grew up in Carnegie libraries and the great museum in Oakland. We resolve it by "blaming Frick". Families I know of will not picnic in Frick Park.
| 361 |
Ericus58 Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:36:23am |
re: #358 lawhawk
Gee, my wife who has not been able to work in her field of expertise since having been let go last year March will be happy to here this.
/
| 362 |
NJDhockeyfan Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:37:25am |
How someone can kill their children is beyond me. How sad...
| 363 |
sagehen Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:40:05am |
re: #340 jamesfirecat
The problem is that people frequently insist on viewing socialism as black and white.
It's not, it's a sliding scale.
On one end we have Andrew Ryan's Rapture and on the other hand we have, well lets say Sophia Lamb's rapture for lack of a better example.
Clearly the US is in the middle somewhere between pure socialism and pure capitalism.
One can in fact argue that we should slide a few more steps towards S without wanting to have the government run everything...
I don't know who Andrew Ryan and Sophia Lamb are. Is this one of those "that's what you get for blocking Ayn Rand from your memory" situations?
| 364 |
sagehen Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:41:31am |
re: #343 sattv4u2
Actually, many European countries were coming out of the depression well before the US and well before WW2.
Some now theorize the New Deal actually exteded the depression here in the states
Some would argue that, because they have an ideological commitment to oppose anything the slightest bit Keynesian-looking.
Sadly, they can't find any economists, left or right, to back them up.
| 365 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:41:39am |
re: #363 sagehen
I don't know who Andrew Ryan and Sophia Lamb are. Is this one of those "that's what you get for blocking Ayn Rand from your memory" situations?
Very good. I'm not sure of the words, but I can hum the tune.
| 366 |
Ericus58 Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:41:47am |
re: #362 NJDhockeyfan
How someone can kill their children is beyond me. How sad...
They should just go ahead and hook up the IV with a cocktail to end his miserable existence.
Parents who kill their children deserve no other ending.
| 367 |
Obdicut Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:41:59am |
re: #362 NJDhockeyfan
How someone can kill their children is beyond me. How sad...
And over visitation rights too-- such a selfishly evil bastard.
That happens a lot. A frightening amount.
[Link: phoenixfamilylawnews.com...]
[Link: classic.feministing.com...]
And then, of course, there's the utter sick bastards who kill their kids because they don't want to pay child support.
[Link: www.stopfamilyviolence.org...]
[Link: www.nola.com...]
| 368 |
deranged cat Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:45:04am |
Saw this on Talking Points Memo:
NR HITS THE BOOKS
Should calm a lot of nerves. From TPM Reader NR ...I know it's obscure and hidden in the voluminous federal law and Supreme Court Decisions so possibly Newt would have missed it, but there is already fairly well established federal law making it illegal to impose Sharia law on the United States. After an exhaustive search, I found this:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
| 369 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:45:36am |
re: #363 sagehen
I don't know who Andrew Ryan and Sophia Lamb are. Is this one of those "that's what you get for blocking Ayn Rand from your memory" situations?
No its one of those "that's what you get for not playing two of the best FPSs on the market situations."
| 370 |
deranged cat Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:46:01am |
re: #358 lawhawk
i kinda think I (and i'm sure, many other unemployed people) will say "the recession ain't over til i get a job!"
that or people stop being so gloomy. either or!
| 371 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:46:19am |
re: #366 Ericus58
They should just go ahead and hook up the IV with a cocktail to end his miserable existence.
Parents who kill their children deserve no other ending.
I'd have to be inside his head to judge, and I don't want to go there.
| 372 |
Ericus58 Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:46:34am |
re: #367 Obdicut
And over visitation rights too-- such a selfishly evil bastard.
That happens a lot. A frightening amount.
[Link: phoenixfamilylawnews.com...]
[Link: classic.feministing.com...]
And then, of course, there's the utter sick bastards who kill their kids because they don't want to pay child support.
[Link: www.stopfamilyviolence.org...]
[Link: www.nola.com...]
Incidents like these make me feel zero compassion for these adults.
Zero.
Hook up the cocktail. That is, if the cowardly selfishly bastards are still around.
| 373 |
Obdicut Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:48:33am |
re: #372 Ericus58
I'd rather have them spend every day of the rest of their lives making children's clothes and toys in prison.
The death penalty is always too problematic for me, even as much as I can agree these guys deserve no mercy.
| 374 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:49:40am |
re: #373 Obdicut
I'd rather have them spend every day of the rest of their lives making children's clothes and toys in prison.
The death penalty is always too problematic for me, even as much as I can agree these guys deserve no mercy.
Cruel and ironic punishment.
| 375 |
lawhawk Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:49:46am |
re: #370 deranged cat
Unemployment is generally seen as a lagging indicator, but in many parts of the country, the economic news isn't brightening - particularly as real estate continues to be a drag. Unemployment is still well above pre-recession levels, which is contributing to the real estate woes.
That's why there's so much talk of a double dip - that the NBER will, instead of listing as one long recession, break it out into a double dip.
It's also important to note that some parts of the country did far worse with the recession than others (both on the economics and unemployment rates).
| 376 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:49:53am |
re: #360 Decatur Deb
Carnegie is a wonderful source of conflict for us Pittsburgh lefties. We usually see him as evil incarnate, but I grew up in Carnegie libraries and the great museum in Oakland. We resolve it by "blaming Frick". Families I know of will not picnic in Frick Park.
Isn't it wonderful when folk refuse to fall into convenient behavioral pigeonholes?
| 377 |
NJDhockeyfan Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:50:10am |
Egypt Captures Hamas Intelligence Chief
Egypt has captured the Intelligence Chief of the Hamas terrorist organization, Mohammed El Tebabshe.Israeli military commentator Guy Bechor says that El Tebabshe knows where kidnapped Israeli soldier Gilar Shalit is being held as well as the full details of the Hamas missile system aimed at Israel. He said Shalit would likely be moved from his hiding place as a result of the capture.
I hope Egypt can find away to get that information and give it to the Israelis.
| 378 |
Gus Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:50:44am |
Breaking News!
President Obama fumbles Declaration of Independence quote. Wingnuts go nuts and also use it to support a wide range of wingger conspiracy theories.
Film @ 11
Note: He wasn't really fully quoting the Declaration of Independence and essentially ad libbed. That won't matter to the obsessed.
| 379 |
Romantic Heretic Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:51:03am |
re: #362 NJDhockeyfan
How someone can kill their children is beyond me. How sad...
I'm going to engage in a little heresy here.
The problem is that English has only one possessive, 'my'. This means that we use 'my' for 'my food' or 'my car' or 'my children' when these are obviously different classes of possessions.
'My food' is meant to be consumed. It can be destroyed without being evil.
'My car' can be destroyed but it would be very silly to do so. There is no evil involved in 'my car's' destruction.
'My children' are not to be destroyed, either by omission or commission. To do so is evil.
But because we have only one 'my' many people become quite confused over what class pf possession their possessions fall under. Which results in people killing their kids because they put their kids into a class of possession that can be destroyed.
We need to add more possessives to the English language to help avert these situations.
Semi /.
| 380 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:51:42am |
re: #364 sagehen
Some would argue that, because they have an ideological commitment to oppose anything the slightest bit Keynesian-looking.
Sadly, they can't find any economists, left or right, to back them up.
Yup ,,,oh ,, except for Rothbard and Hayek
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
| 381 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:52:51am |
re: #378 Gus 802
Breaking News!
President Obama fumbles Declaration of Independence quote. Wingnuts go nuts and also use it to support a wide range of wingger conspiracy theories.
Film @ 11
Note: He wasn't really fully quoting the Declaration of Independence and essentially ad libbed. That won't matter to the obsessed.
"Paraphrase" is an evil elitist polysyllable.
| 382 |
Ericus58 Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:53:07am |
re: #371 Decatur Deb
I'd have to be inside his head to judge, and I don't want to go there.
Being a parent - and the wondrous responsibilities it brings to me - I can not even understand why someone would harm their own child. Or any child.
The experiences I've been blessed to have as a father is humbling and rewarding. I'm thankful to have this in my life.
And I can understand the pain and regret some will find in being childless. My heart goes out to them.
But these evil ones, I don't have to understand them. They have crossed a line of sacred trust. After legally concluding their guilt, hook them up.
| 383 |
lawhawk Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:53:27am |
re: #370 deranged cat
Also, the June 2009 end date of the recession doesn't exactly help with the prospects for another stimulus package; the ARRA of 2009 was passed February 2009, and only a fraction of the total package was spent by June (though the bulk of that money distributed was transfer payments to states to help them close state deficits).
| 384 |
Romantic Heretic Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:55:03am |
re: #377 NJDhockeyfan
Egypt Captures Hamas Intelligence Chief
I hope Egypt can find away to get that information and give it to the Israelis.
They will. It will be something along this line.
Interrogators: Not going to talk, are you?
Prisoner: No, I'm not.
Interrogators: Then you'll do the next best thing.
Prisoner: What's that?
Interrogators: You'll scream.
/
| 385 |
Obdicut Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:55:24am |
re: #382 Ericus58
I used to work with runaway teens. Or teens that were kicked out by their parents.
I have heard stories-- verified-- of such utter evil as to make anyone cry. Some people just can't handle parenthood. And it's not always predictable who that will be.
If you haven't read this story, you should. It's heartbreaking but also heart-enlivening, at the end.
[Link: www.tampabay.com...]
| 386 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:55:33am |
re: #379 Romantic Heretic
Maybe it is not so much the language as a society which thinks that everything can and must be owned. Some things are given to us to take care of, children are the foremost example of such beings.
| 388 |
Romantic Heretic Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:57:15am |
re: #386 ralphieboy
Maybe it is not so much the language as a society which thinks that everything can and must be owned. Some things are given to us to take care of, children are the foremost example of such beings.
Very good point.
| 389 |
NJDhockeyfan Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:58:08am |
Helen Thomas receiving lifetime achievement award from CAIR
The longtime White House correspondent who resigned from Hearst newspapers in June in the wake of comments she made about Israel will receive a lifetime achievement award from the Council on American-Islamic Relations.
CAIR is honoring Helen Thomas, who is of Lebanese descent and now 90 years old, at its Leadership Conference and 16th Annual Fundraising Banquet on Oct. 9 in Arlington, Va.
Speakers will also include Oxford Islamic studies scholar Tariq Ramadan.
Thomas started at the White House as a reporter during the Kennedy administration. In a video interview captured at a White House Jewish heritage event for RabbiLIVE.com that spread quickly across the Internet, Thomas advised Israeli Jews to "get the hell out of Palestine" and "go home" to Poland, Germany, America and "everywhere else."
CAIR, a group Helen can support!
| 390 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 20, 2010 8:59:48am |
| 391 |
sagehen Mon, Sep 20, 2010 9:01:23am |
re: #380 sattv4u2
Yup ,,,oh ,, except for Rothbard and Hayek
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Neither of whom is quoted as making that argument in the links provided. And both of whom have been dead for more than 15 years, so neither of them is making any argument at all anymore.
| 392 |
Romantic Heretic Mon, Sep 20, 2010 9:02:10am |
re: #382 Ericus58
Being a parent - and the wondrous responsibilities it brings to me - I can not even understand why someone would harm their own child. Or any child.
The experiences I've been blessed to have as a father is humbling and rewarding. I'm thankful to have this in my life.
And I can understand the pain and regret some will find in being childless. My heart goes out to them.But these evil ones, I don't have to understand them. They have crossed a line of sacred trust. After legally concluding their guilt, hook them up.
I'm not in favor of capital punishment. There are major problems with it.
However, if the problems were dealt with, I'd make the method of carrying it out a bullet in the back of the head. Quick, cheap and effective.
I'd also make it that the job of executioner was filled by lottery. Every citizen of the country could possibly get a letter that says, "On this day you will be at this jail where you will execute this person."
To quote Heinlein, "A real man shoots his own dog."
| 393 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Sep 20, 2010 9:03:21am |
re: #379 Romantic Heretic
I'm going to engage in a little heresy here.
The problem is that English has only one possessive, 'my'. This means that we use 'my' for 'my food' or 'my car' or 'my children' when these are obviously different classes of possessions.
'My food' is meant to be consumed. It can be destroyed without being evil.
'My car' can be destroyed but it would be very silly to do so. There is no evil involved in 'my car's' destruction.
'My children' are not to be destroyed, either by omission or commission. To do so is evil.
But because we have only one 'my' many people become quite confused over what class pf possession their possessions fall under. Which results in people killing their kids because they put their kids into a class of possession that can be destroyed.
We need to add more possessives to the English language to help avert these situations.
Semi /.
Maybe we should just switch to Galactic Seven now, and save the five galaxy's the difficulty of figuring out our wolfling yips and barks.
//One of the worlds most obscure jokes...
| 394 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 20, 2010 9:03:21am |
re: #391 sagehen
Neither of whom is quoted as making that argument in the links provided. And both of whom have been dead for more than 15 years, so neither of them is making any argument at all anymore.
Huh ??
According to Rothbard, government intervention delayed the market's adjustment and made the road to complete recovery more difficult.[
| 395 |
Ericus58 Mon, Sep 20, 2010 9:04:40am |
re: #385 Obdicut
I used to work with runaway teens. Or teens that were kicked out by their parents.
I have heard stories-- verified-- of such utter evil as to make anyone cry. Some people just can't handle parenthood. And it's not always predictable who that will be.
If you haven't read this story, you should. It's heartbreaking but also heart-enlivening, at the end.
[Link: www.tampabay.com...]
Obdi man, are you trying to get me weeping at work?
That really hits the heart.
Thanks for sharing. I'm on Part Two.
| 396 |
sagehen Mon, Sep 20, 2010 9:05:55am |
re: #394 sattv4u2
Huh ??
According to Rothbard, government intervention delayed the market's adjustment and made the road to complete recovery more difficult.[
Government intervention in monetary policy, he was talking about reserve banking and the Fed. Not the New Deal, Keynesian spending.
| 397 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 20, 2010 9:07:00am |
Enough power-meming. Have to hit the real ife gym. BBL
| 398 |
Obdicut Mon, Sep 20, 2010 9:09:29am |
re: #395 Ericus58
Obdi man, are you trying to get me weeping at work?
That really hits the heart.Thanks for sharing. I'm on Part Two.
I cry every time I read it, man.
If you want to know the good news:
Dani can speak a few words now. She laughs and smiles. She has a pet goat and a pet pony. A fainting goat. Bernie is an amazing man with a fountain of love. William, her older brother, dotes on her and says that he wants to grow up to take care of her. That's his goal. He gave up his room for her so that she could have somewhere private to sleep, and he slept down in the laundry room. If there's any family where Dani can find peace, it's theirs.
I used to work at a children's educational toy company. I read that story, and after I was done crying, took to our ladies in outreach. After they were done crying, we put together a package of toys; since Dani is permanently disabled, toys that are appropriate for infants and very young children are good for her. So I've gotten to know the Lierows-- over the phone only, but it's still touched my heart.
[Link: www.danisstory.org...]
They're not rich people. They take donations. If you feel so moved, that's how you do it.
| 399 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Sep 20, 2010 9:12:04am |
re: #272 goddamnedfrank
"The man of great wealth owes a peculiar obligation to the State,
because he derives special advantages from the mere existence of
government" - Teddy Roosevelt
In other words: With great compensation comes commensurate obligation.
I don't disagree with that at all.
Where we may disagree, is where that line of obligation becomes counterproductive.
I also disagree with the idea that when a person earns a living, a portion of the income automatically belongs to the state.
I'm more of the "what I earn is mine, until the tax bill becomes due, at which point I pay everything I owe" mind-set.
| 400 |
webevintage Mon, Sep 20, 2010 9:12:10am |
re: #375 lawhawk
It's also important to note that some parts of the country did far worse with the recession than others (both on the economics and unemployment rates).
Here in Arkansas unemployment is hovering at just a tad over 7% and we have a surplus of state money. Housing sales are just slightly down and new businesses have opened or announced they are moving here.
BUT to hear the tea party/gop folks talk you would think we were in the shape of folks in Michigan and that we need to kick out our Senator who is the Chairman of the Agriculture Committee because she supported HCR (in her own special blue dog way).
How nuts is that?
and yeah, they really want their country back around here....
| 401 |
Ericus58 Mon, Sep 20, 2010 9:12:30am |
re: #392 Romantic Heretic
I'm not in favor of capital punishment. There are major problems with it.
However, if the problems were dealt with, I'd make the method of carrying it out a bullet in the back of the head. Quick, cheap and effective.
I'd also make it that the job of executioner was filled by lottery. Every citizen of the country could possibly get a letter that says, "On this day you will be at this jail where you will execute this person."
To quote Heinlein, "A real man shoots his own dog."
In regards to the individuals that commit the evil I've been discussing - I'll be there tomorrow.
| 402 |
NJDhockeyfan Mon, Sep 20, 2010 9:16:22am |
Breaking...helluva fire on a bridge between the Bronx & Manhattan.
| 403 |
What, me worry? Mon, Sep 20, 2010 9:17:10am |
re: #398 Obdicut
I used to go to the strawberry festival in Plant City.
I'll read it when I get home, but thanks for posting.
| 404 |
Ericus58 Mon, Sep 20, 2010 9:18:24am |
re: #398 Obdicut
[Link: [Link: www.danisstory.org...]...]
"They're not rich people. They take donations. If you feel so moved, that's how you do it."
Thanks for the info, gladly.
| 405 |
garhighway Mon, Sep 20, 2010 9:24:23am |
re: #256 RogueOne
They are entitled to keep what the rest of us decide they deserve.
Isn't that how democracy works?
In general, the majority rules. Where we as a society have determined that minorities need protection from the majority, we have created those protections. (See: The Bill of Rights.) But there is no constitutional protection for the current marginal tax rates. The majority (speaking, in this case, through Congress, who we elected) has every right to change those.
| 406 |
Romantic Heretic Mon, Sep 20, 2010 9:26:14am |
re: #393 jamesfirecat
Maybe we should just switch to Galactic Seven now, and save the five galaxy's the difficulty of figuring out our wolfling yips and barks.
//One of the worlds most obscure jokes...
David Brin's Uplift Saga. Love it.
So tell me, boys.
What's your excuse?
You ETs and your stars.
*grin*
| 407 |
lawhawk Mon, Sep 20, 2010 9:27:11am |
re: #402 NJDhockeyfan
[Link: newyork.cbslocal.com...]
The fire isn't on the bridge but near the tracks, but has resulted in a suspension of service on Metro North over the Harlem River.
| 408 |
goddamnedfrank Mon, Sep 20, 2010 9:36:26am |
re: #399 reine.de.tout
I also disagree with the idea that when a person earns a living, a portion of the income automatically belongs to the state.
I'm more of the "what I earn is mine, until the tax bill becomes due, at which point I pay everything I owe" mind-set.
I'm sorry, but it sounds like you're arguing with the withholding option, which nobody disputes to be a payment option, and not a mindset. Some people don't mind giving the government a small interest free loan every year if it helps them budget better and not get surprised at the end of the year. Some do mind, and nobody is forcing them to do so. Nevertheless, what will become due absolutely will become due, even death will not avert a person's estate from having to pay taxes owed on any income they earned if filing requirements were met by the time of their death. There's even a saying about the certain inevitability of these two things.
| 409 |
CarleeCork Mon, Sep 20, 2010 9:38:10am |
re: #366 Ericus58
They should just go ahead and hook up the IV with a cocktail to end his miserable existence.
Parents who kill their children deserve no other ending.
Let's not forget to swab his arm with alcohol, we wouldn't want him to get an infection.
| 410 |
garhighway Mon, Sep 20, 2010 9:42:42am |
re: #408 goddamnedfrank
I'm sorry, but it sounds like you're arguing with the withholding option, which nobody disputes to be a payment option, and not a mindset. Some people don't mind giving the government a small interest free loan every year if it helps them budget better and not get surprised at the end of the year. Some do mind, and nobody is forcing them to do so. Nevertheless, what will become due absolutely will become due, even death will not avert a person's estate from having to pay taxes owed on any income they earned if filing requirements were met by the time of their death. There's even a saying about the certain inevitability of these two things.
Actually, if you systematically and knowingly under-withhold for a significant percentage of what you owe, the IRS will sooner or later penalize you for doing that and they will require you to make quarterly estimated tax payments.
You can tinker around the edges so that you get a refund every year or you have to pay some every year, but if you set it up so you owe a lot, they get annoyed.
| 411 |
goddamnedfrank Mon, Sep 20, 2010 9:43:25am |
re: #409 CarleeCork
Let's not forget to swab his arm with alcohol, we wouldn't want him to get an infection.
The reason they do that is for the mental health of the person performing the procedure, not because infection is an actual concern. Technicians tend to psychologically fare much better in the aftermath of performing such a duty if they can go through the entire physical routine instilled by their medical training and everyday professional lives.
| 412 |
ClaudeMonet Mon, Sep 20, 2010 10:06:06am |
re: #213 ralphieboy
stoned and stupid is about the same ain't it?
No. Some are stoned without being stupid, although the weed eventually makes them stupid. Some are stupid before being stoned. Many are stupid without ever being stoned.
| 413 |
ClaudeMonet Mon, Sep 20, 2010 10:18:44am |
re: #253 jamesfirecat
Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?
The sweat, yes. The pay resulting from his efforts, no.
| 414 |
ClaudeMonet Mon, Sep 20, 2010 10:24:39am |
re: #289 RogueOne
"The man of great wealth owes a peculiar obligation to the State,
because he derives special advantages from the mere existence of
government" - Teddy RooseveltIn other words: With great compensation comes commensurate obligation.Teddy was talking about a tax rate of 1%.
The number is irrelevant--1%, 15%, 28%, 35%, 39.6%, 50%, 70%, 90%.
No matter what the top rate may be, the top income folks will rail against it. Always have, always will.
| 415 |
b_sharp Mon, Sep 20, 2010 11:02:24am |
re: #406 Romantic Heretic
David Brin's Uplift Saga. Love it.
So tell me, boys.
What's your excuse?
You ETs and your stars.*grin*
I loved it too. I hate that he didn't finish it.
| 416 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Sep 20, 2010 11:20:54am |
re: #408 goddamnedfrank
I'm sorry, but it sounds like you're arguing with the withholding option, which nobody disputes to be a payment option, and not a mindset. Some people don't mind giving the government a small interest free loan every year if it helps them budget better and not get surprised at the end of the year. Some do mind, and nobody is forcing them to do so. Nevertheless, what will become due absolutely will become due, even death will not avert a person's estate from having to pay taxes owed on any income they earned if filing requirements were met by the time of their death. There's even a saying about the certain inevitability of these two things.
No, I'm not arguing against the withholding option, which is, as you say, a payment option. And I actually (gasp! you won't believe it!) have additional withheld from my income.
And I've never argued against the idea that taxes are necessary and proper.
I have argued against the idea, and am arguing against the idea, claimed by some here on a different thread once, that what I earn belongs to the GOVERNMENT first, until my tax bill is satisfied, and THEN what's left over is mine.
| 417 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Sep 20, 2010 11:42:24am |
re: #379 Romantic Heretic
I'm going to engage in a little heresy here.
The problem is that English has only one possessive, 'my'. This means that we use 'my' for 'my food' or 'my car' or 'my children' when these are obviously different classes of possessions.
'My food' is meant to be consumed. It can be destroyed without being evil.
'My car' can be destroyed but it would be very silly to do so. There is no evil involved in 'my car's' destruction.
'My children' are not to be destroyed, either by omission or commission. To do so is evil.
But because we have only one 'my' many people become quite confused over what class pf possession their possessions fall under. Which results in people killing their kids because they put their kids into a class of possession that can be destroyed.
We need to add more possessives to the English language to help avert these situations.
Semi /.
I think you're quite right. We discuss this in my class every time we do possessive forms in grammar. The kids always point out that you can own your pencil, but you can't own your mother or your husband. Then we argue about whether you can or should be able to own your dog.
| 419 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Sep 20, 2010 1:08:25pm |
Gingrich has apparently never heard of the establishment clause, which would prevent the establishment of sharia law in the US as anything other than a contractual obligation.
Given that the constitution already has a provision preventing such a thing from happening, WTF is he talking about?
| 420 |
The Omphaloskeptic Mon, Sep 20, 2010 5:06:09pm |
r: #419 Fzz Br
gr, th S s nt ndr trt f Thcrcy, b t shr r sm mgnd Chrstn frm.
| 423 |
Varek Raith Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:23:59pm |
re: #421 GPS2008
Sharia has no chance of being enacted in the US.
Full stop.
To claim otherwise is dishonest fear mongering.
| 424 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:28:17pm |
re: #421 GPS2008
Newt is being ridiculous by demanding a ban on something that is already banned and that has been since the foundation of the Republic. Religious courts of any kind would require a Constitutional amendment. How likely is that?
| 425 |
Four More Tears Mon, Sep 20, 2010 7:29:01pm |
re: #422 GPS2008
Uh huh. People are dying of AIDS in Africa because condoms are the devil's instruments or something. Your fucking point?
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