Return of the Texas Taliban: Schoolbooks Are Anti-Christian

Here we go again with the Republican religious fanatics of the Texas State Board of Education. Led by young earth creationist Don McLeroy, now they’re jumping on the anti-Muslim bandwagon and working themselves up into another frenzy of outrageous outrage over world history books that aren’t even being used any more: Texas Board of Ed: Textbooks Are Anti-Christian.

(CBS/AP) Texas’ State Board of Education - following a long history of throwing itself into “culture war” issues - is set to vote Friday on a resolution calling on textbook publishers to limit what they print about Islam in world history books.

The resolution cites world history books no longer used in Texas schools that it says devoted more lines of text to Islamic beliefs and practices than Christian beliefs and practices.

“Diverse reviewers have repeatedly documented gross pro-Islamic, anti-Christian distortions in social studies texts,” reads a draft of the resolution, which would not be binding on future boards that will choose the state’s next generation of social studies texts.

Why is it a public school board’s business to defend Christianity? Oh, that’s right, it’s the Texas BOE — the most outright un-Constitutional school board in the country.

The truly ridiculous part of this latest outbreak of whiny fundamentalist victimhood:

Board member Pat Hardy, R-Fort Worth, suggested the issue may be moot because none of the books cited by Rives still are being used in Texas, having been replaced in 2003, and said Rives “might want to go back and get newer copies of the books.”

That’s right — they’re freaking out about books that haven’t been used for seven years.

But that doesn’t stop creationist dentist McLeroy, of course.

“The biggest problem I saw was their overreach not to be ‘ethnocentric,”’ McLeroy said of an Advanced Placement world history book approved in 2003 and still in use. “It’s a very, very, very, very biased book. Christianity didn’t even make it in the table of contents.”

McLeroy is one of the most outspoken of a group of board members who have pushed several conservative requirements for social study textbooks used in Texas, including that teachers cover the Judeo-Christian influences of the nation’s Founding Fathers.

“It’s that great idea. That radical idea of Judeo-Christianity, that man is created in the image of God. So if you have world history books that downplay Christianity - Judeo-Christianity - and it doesn’t even make it in the table of contents, I think there’s a great concern,” McLeroy said.

Jump to bottom

196 comments

1 BishopX  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:26:15am

AP text books generally go by what gets tests on the AP test… demanding that stuff be added to already demanding courses is just sadism IMO.

2 darthstar  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:29:19am

Why don’t we just teach kids out of the Bible (after we take out all that crap about loving thy neighbor, tolerance, forgiveness, etc…oh, and maybe turn Jesus into a muslim-killing Rambo)…would that make the TBOE happy?

3 Lidane  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:30:46am
That’s right— they’re freaking out about books that haven’t been used for seven years.

That’s what kills me the most about what these assholes are doing. The books they’re in full on Outrageous Outrage mode over haven’t even been in the classroom in almost a decade.

I’ve lived in Texas my entire life. Went through the public schools. Even took World History back in high school. I couldn’t tell you a single thing I learned about Islam back then. Most of what I’ve learned has come from my own reading and — gasp! — talking to people who are Muslim, like local imams, and having them answer my questions.

Honestly, I wish these Texas SBOE people would STFU and quit making my state look bad. It’s infuriating. I’m tired of a bunch of YEC religious nutjobs not only ruining the educational system in this state, forcing colleges to pick up the slack later, but making all of Texas look like it’s filled with a bunch of ignorant, backwards morans.

4 Gus  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:32:01am

“Once again, without consulting any real experts, the board’s politicians are manufacturing a bogus controversy,” - Kathy Miller, spokeswoman for the Texas Freedom Network

No textbooks cited in the resolution are still being used in Texas schools, she told The Dallas Morning news for a Wednesday story. - CBS News

5 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:37:47am

I love how they keep correcting themselves and saying “Judeo-Christianity” so they don’t look like bigots.

Guess what, fucker? Jews don’t want any part of your bullshit. Stop trying to pretend we’re a part of your theocracy.

6 Gus  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:38:01am

Randy Rives Fears “Pro-Islamic/Anti-Christian Bias” in Textbooks

Randy Rives is a Republican candidate for the Texas State Board of Education. He has received the endorsement of Glenn Beck favorite, David Barton of Wall Builders.

7 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:38:13am

“Facts are stubborn things.”

John Adams.

Yes, actually, Muslims were studying astronomy and mathematics while our ancestors were wearing furs and refusing to bathe for months at a time.

Civilizations rise and fall, wax and wane. It’s the nature of things. It might be more important to try to understand why, rather than get worked up about the idea that our ancestors were once not the biggest game in town.

8 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:39:44am

I’m all for covering Christianity in school textbooks. In fact there should be sections dedicated to:

The corruption of the early Church.
The Crusades.
The idea of indulgences that led to the protestant reformation.
The inquisition.
The use of christianity to kill or convert native populations.
The use of christianity in the witch hunts both in Europe (outside the inquisition)
and the Americas.
The use of christianity to justify slavery.

It could go on and on. Really it could. They want to pillory islam and make christianity out to be morally superior, let’s get real with them. One of the best books I ever read was the medieval underworld. Very interesting read about the early church and the “dark ages” before the enlightenment.

9 Killgore Trout  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:39:47am

OMG! Islamification!

10 Gus  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:42:00am

Attacking Religious Freedom: The Anti-Islam Resolution

The proposed resolution, now championed by far-right members of the board, includes a variety of disingenuous claims designed to demonstrate the alleged bias in high school world history textbooks published in 1999. A Texas Freedom Network analysis shows that the resolution and its supporting materials are based on claims that are superficial and grossly misleading. Further, examples cited in the resolution come from world history books no longer used in Texas schools. Yet the board is set to consider the measure at its September 22-24 meeting in Austin.

Text from included link provided above:

In July a failed State Board of Education candidate, Randy Rives of Odessa, asked the Texas board to adopt a resolution condemning what he alleged were “pro-Islamic/anti-Christian distortions” in social studies textbooks. The proposed resolution includes a variety of claims designed to demonstrate the alleged bias in high school world history textbooks published in 1999. First, those textbooks are not in Texas classrooms. Publishers updated those textbooks, which Texas adopted in 2002. A review of those newer textbooks, which carry a copyright of 2003, at the Texas Education Agency reveals that the Rives’ claims are superficial and grossly misleading. Below is a sampling of claims in the Rives resolution and the facts that counter them.

11 MarkAM  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:43:23am

I’d call these folks Christian Stalinists.

“Judeo-Christianity” isn’t in my dictionary either. Is this clown suggesting that it’s an actual religion? (snark)

And as for what they find objectionable:

In the board’s official resolution, members cite textbook passages that call Christian Crusaders “invaders” and “violent attackers,” while claiming Muslims were “empire builders.”

Umm…hard to see what’s untrue in the above. Seems to me the European Crusaders were invading the holy land; the Muslims certainly built empires. As for violent attackers, well:


On a popular level, the first crusades unleashed a wave of impassioned, personally felt pious Christian fury that was expressed in the massacres of Jews that accompanied the movement of the Crusader mobs through Europe, as well as the violent treatment of “schismatic” Orthodox Christians of the east. During many of the attacks on Jews, local Bishops and Christians made attempts to protect Jews from the mobs that were passing through. Jews were often offered sanctuary in churches and other Christian buildings.[citation needed]
In the 13th century, Crusades never expressed such a popular fever, and after Acre fell for the last time in 1291 and the Occitan Cathars were exterminated during the Albigensian Crusade, the crusading ideal became devalued by Papal justifications of political and territorial aggressions within Catholic Europe.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

12 Gus  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:43:51am

re: #9 Killgore Trout

OMG! Islamification!

I’m suspicious. That book on the history of Saudi Arabia seemed rather pro-Islamic to me.

//

13 jaunte  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:44:45am

re: #3 Lidane
As a born and raised Texan myself, I have to say that this:

whiny fundamentalist victimhood


just seems to be part of the atmosphere down here.

14 jamesfirecat  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:44:50am

Do you ever notice how when people say Judeo-Christianity, about 90% of Christianity?

15 Taqyia2Me  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:45:03am

Satan has to be mighty damn proud of the work he is having done for him, reminds me of the picket fence painting job done for Tom Sawyer.

16 Ojoe  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:45:31am

As if they school kids are going to read that one textbook only.

They are going to read Mad magazine too.

17 darthstar  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:45:50am

OT:(early, I know), but E. J. Dionne has a great article about the actual size of the tea party movement, and how such a small percentage of people are dictating the message for the GOP. (I’m headed into meetings, so this is a drop and run…sorry).

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com…]

18 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:46:39am

re: #11 MarkAM

I think a nice measurement of how many Jews have been killed by Christians vs. Muslims would be a nice thing to have in the textbook.

19 Ojoe  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:47:33am

re: #18 Obdicut

Just a tally of the No. killed in all wars of religion would be worth including.

20 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:49:49am

re: #19 Ojoe

Just a tally of the No. killed in all wars of religion would be worth including.

That rather misses the point of what I was saying, Ojoe. Is that intentional?

21 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:50:06am

re: #18 Obdicut

yeah I recall reading, in that book I mentioned, the kill or convert mentality used against Jews, Pagans, Muslims and pretty much anyone during the early days of the church.

22 Ojoe  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:51:18am

re: #20 Obdicut

Not at all. Religion has made a big mess in history, let’s show it all.

23 MarkAM  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:51:38am

re: #21 Dreggas

re: #21 Dreggas

yeah I recall reading, in that book I mentioned, the kill or convert mentality used against Jews, Pagans, Muslims and pretty much anyone during the early days of the church.

Heretics too.

24 mikhailtheplumber  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:52:43am

I thought the loony creationist dentist had lost his position in the Texas BOE. Am I wrong?

25 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:52:58am

re: #22 Ojoe

Not at all. Religion has made a big mess in history, let’s show it all.

You appear to still be missing the point of what I’m saying, Ojoe.

Right now, we have Christians who are certain that Christianity is in every way more righteous than Islam, making a claim to a ‘Judeo-Christian’ tradition. However, Christians have been responsible for the murder and killings of far, far, far, far, far more Jews than Muslims have.

This is a point that is completely lost if you just start shouting “Religion is bad and makes people kill”.

26 garhighway  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:55:19am

re: #25 Obdicut

You appear to still be missing the point of what I’m saying, Ojoe.

Right now, we have Christians who are certain that Christianity is in every way more righteous than Islam, making a claim to a ‘Judeo-Christian’ tradition. However, Christians have been responsible for the murder and killings of far, far, far, far, far more Jews than Muslims have.

This is a point that is completely lost if you just start shouting “Religion is bad and makes people kill”.

Sometimes missing the point IS the point.

27 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:57:05am

re: #23 MarkAM

Those too.

28 pharmmajor  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:58:08am

F*ck McElroy and all the idiots like him.

29 Killgore Trout  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:58:41am

A weird one from Crazy Pam this morning…..

[Link: atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com…]

It seems white people aren’t free to hate blacks (or something).
Behold modern “patriotism”.

30 friarstale  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:59:10am

or we could talk about Judeo-Cristian-Islamism, since the three are considered the Abrahamic Religions

or we could talk about Greco-Judean-Christian-Islamism, since some people find similarities between Jesus and Socrates, and wonder if the contact between Greek and Jewish cultures fused into early Christian mythology

http://rationallyspeaking.blogspot.com/2005/08/socrates-vs-jesus.html

31 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:59:32am

re: #29 Killgore Trout

Wow…just wow.

32 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 9:59:50am

re: #30 friarstale

Aesop Christ.

33 Kragar  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:00:30am

“It’s that great idea. That radical idea of Judeo-Christianity, that man is created in the image of God.”

Man created God in his image because people kept going insane whenever Cthulhu put in an appearance.

34 friarstale  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:04:10am

re: #33 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

“It’s that great idea. That radical idea of Judeo-Christianity, that man is created in the image of God.”

Man created God in his image because people kept going insane whenever Cthulhu put in an appearance.

Yeah! A little Jethro Tull philosophy

In the beginning Man created God;
and in the image of Man
created he him.

http://willerup.com/tull/lyrics/aqualung.html

35 deranged cat  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:05:11am

re: #24 mikhailtheplumber

I thought the loony creationist dentist had lost his position in the Texas BOE. Am I wrong?

from wikipedia (source is a NY post/times article)

On May 28, 2009, McLeroy’s nomination as Chair of the Board of Education failed to gain Senate approval since only 19 of 31 Senators voted for him, falling one vote short of the 2/3 majority needed for approval. Gail Lowe became the new Chair, but McLeroy remained dominating board meetings in what Russell Shorto described as “a single-handed display of arch-conservative political strong-arming.”
36 Killgore Trout  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:08:30am

re: #31 Dreggas

Wow…just wow.

The new White Rights movement is picking up steam. Wingnuts are all excited over the bogus Black Panthers thing again this morning too. We’re going to see a lot more of this.

37 webevintage  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:09:16am

re: #17 darthstar

OT:(early, I know), but E. J. Dionne has a great article about the actual size of the tea party movement, and how such a small percentage of people are dictating the message for the GOP. (I’m headed into meetings, so this is a drop and run…sorry).

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com…]

I was just over on TPM and read this comment in response to the spineless Dems:

God help us. We have one party that’s fit to govern, but unfit to win the right to govern and another that wins by actively promoting their unfitness to govern as a feature rather than problem. One party completely in thrall to an extremist, nihilistic minority and another completely in thrall to a minority of cringing, crawling, traumatized cowards who think the way to win is to cover up and let the other guys wear themselves out beating them to death.
I’m sure this is all Obama’s fault, somehow.

I think that sums things up pretty well.

38 KingKenrod  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:11:55am

re: #18 Obdicut

I think a nice measurement of how many Jews have been killed by Christians vs. Muslims would be a nice thing to have in the textbook.

Are you just making a point or do you really want to see that?

39 MarkAM  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:12:07am

re: #29 Killgore Trout

A weird one from Crazy Pam this morning…

[Link: atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com…]

It seems white people aren’t free to hate blacks (or something).
Behold modern “patriotism”.

Can you summarize more fully? I don’t want to give her the traffic

40 lostlakehiker  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:12:58am
- and it doesn’t even make it in the table of contents, I think there’s a great concern,” McLeroy said.


For some perspective, this is coming from a Texas creationist who lost his bid for re-nomination in the TX GOP primary.

41 Mark Pennington  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:13:35am

A text book should be neither pro nor anti any religion.

42 lostlakehiker  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:13:51am

re: #24 mikhailtheplumber

I thought the loony creationist dentist had lost his position in the Texas BOE. Am I wrong?

He won’t be on the ticket this November. He lost in the primaries.

43 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:17:07am

The world has been a very brutal place for most of history. I see no reason to hide that from teenagers, who are not little kids who need their history Disneyfied any more.

They need the truth, and they need to see those periods of time that were brutal, and those that were better, and examine what made the difference.

44 Killgore Trout  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:17:11am

Who wrote the GOP’s new manifesto? This guy….
GOP ‘Pledge To America’ Director Lobbied For AIG, Exxon, Pfizer, Chamber

The Republican Party’s 21-page blueprint, “Pledge to America,” was put together with oversight by a House staffer who, up till April 2010, served as a lobbyist for some of the nation’s most powerful oil, pharmaceutical, and insurance companies.

45 Ming  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:18:37am

What the religious right is doing with science textbooks is so much the opposite of what Presidents Eisenhower and Kennedy did in response to Sputnik: strengthen America’s commitment to science in education. Thanks to the religious right, America is slowed down in its scientific progress, at exactly the moment when other nations are making great scientific progress. American parents who want their children to learn science must do whatever they need to do to protect their kids, even as other Americans fall behind in science.

46 sagehen  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:19:58am

re: #14 jamesfirecat

Do you ever notice how when people say Judeo-Christianity, about 90% 99.8% of Christianity?

The “Judeo-Christian” Values Voters Forum last week? The Family Research Council’s big whoop-de-doo faith fest? On Yom Kippur. Last year’s was on Rosh Hashanah. The year before was on Pesach.

The only “judeo” they want in their “judeo-christian” is parts of Genesis (which they substantially rewrote), parts of Exodus (not even the best parts), and three sentences from Leviticus (the sentences that even Orthodox Rabbis consider the least important).

47 Kragar  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:20:05am

re: #41 beekiller

A text book should be neither pro nor anti any religion.

I think Hitler said some like that.
///

48 sagehen  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:20:54am

re: #18 Obdicut

I think a nice measurement of how many Jews have been killed by Christians vs. Muslims would be a nice thing to have in the textbook.

As long as the figures are published in Roman numerals rather than Arabic numerals.

//

49 jaunte  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:21:51am

re: #42 lostlakehiker

He won’t be on the ticket this November. He lost in the primaries.

The problem is not restricted to one man.

May 21, 2010

The Texas State Board of Education today gutted a key protection for religious freedom by suggesting in new social studies curriculum standards for public schools that separation of church and state is not a key principle of the Constitution, the president of the Texas Freedom Network said.

“This board simply decided to ignore mainstream constitutional scholarship, a long and consistent history of Supreme Court decisions and even the beliefs of the vast majority of Texans,” TFN President Kathy Miller said. “The new standard suggests that separation of church and state isn’t a key principle in our Constitution. Otherwise, why ask students to ‘contrast’ the First Amendment with ‘separation of church and state’? You contrast opposing ideas, not ideas that complement each other.”[Link: www.tfn.org…]

50 Cato the Elder  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:23:55am

Did God create Muslims?

51 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:25:41am

re: #50 Cato the Elder

Did God create Muslims?

I Moose-lim once bit my sister…

//

52 KingKenrod  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:26:35am

re: #44 Killgore Trout

Who wrote the GOP’s new manifesto? This guy…
GOP ‘Pledge To America’ Director Lobbied For AIG, Exxon, Pfizer, Chamber

This is pretty underwhelming.

53 Charles Johnson  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:29:11am

New outrageous outrage alert.

Right wing bloggers really love it when they find a Democrat who says something they can construe as racist, and here’s the latest example: Loretta Sanchez, a California Democrat who says (in Spanish): “the Vietnamese and the Republicans are trying to take away this seat.”

Background info: [Link: blogs.ocweekly.com…]

Wingnuts are all pointing fingers and gloating over this. But is it really an example of racism?

54 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:29:15am

I’m going to write a zoology textbook. Let’s see, I need 20 paragraphs to describe a water buffalo. Better make sure I save room to do 20 paragraphs on housecats. Idiots.

55 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:29:43am

re: #50 Cato the Elder

what a silly question, of course HE didn’t. They’re obviously the devil’s spawn.

//

56 Gus  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:30:36am

re: #53 Charles

New outrageous outrage alert.

Right wing bloggers really love it when they find a Democrat who says something they can construe as racist, and here’s the latest example: Loretta Sanchez, a California Democrat who says (in Spanish): “the Vietnamese and the Republicans are trying to take away this seat.”


[Video]Background info: [Link: blogs.ocweekly.com…]

Wingnuts are all pointing fingers and gloating over this. But is it really an example of racism?

No.

57 Ericus58  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:32:28am

re: #53 Charles

New outrageous outrage alert.

Right wing bloggers really love it when they find a Democrat who says something they can construe as racist, and here’s the latest example: Loretta Sanchez, a California Democrat who says (in Spanish): “the Vietnamese and the Republicans are trying to take away this seat.”


[Video]Background info: [Link: blogs.ocweekly.com…]

Wingnuts are all pointing fingers and gloating over this. But is it really an example of racism?

I posted about this earlier this morning.
Clearly, she is pandering to a specific ethnic group that she is part of. she highlight’s her opponents enthnicity and makes a point of it - as if it’s unseemly.

She doesn’t mention his positions, his experience or past actions in an elected position.
Rather, she brings up his race.

Yes. She is being racists.

58 Cato the Elder  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:32:28am

Hands off my Babylonian Greco-Roman Judeo-Christian Euro-Barbarian Viking Druido-Celic heritage!

Fucking dentists.

59 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:33:11am

re: #53 Charles

given the rich members of the Vietnamese community here in the OC not at all.

60 jaunte  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:34:03am

re: #58 Cato the Elder

The dentist finds you ‘too multicultural’:

Dear Friend,
Our nation is falling under the sway of the ideas of the far-left; the founding principles of our nation are being neglected and forgotten. Things have changed fast; back in the 1950s even the entertainment industry supported and reinforced traditional, conservative American values. As kids, many of us w…atched Superman as he fought “the never ending battle for truth, justice and the American way.” Today, this “never ending battle” continues as political correctness battles truth; fairness—as in the fairness doctrine—battles justice; and multiculturalism battles the American way.[Link: www.facebook.com…]

61 Killgore Trout  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:35:13am

re: #53 Charles

New outrageous outrage alert.

Right wing bloggers really love it when they find a Democrat who says something they can construe as racist, and here’s the latest example: Loretta Sanchez, a California Democrat who says (in Spanish): “the Vietnamese and the Republicans are trying to take away this seat.”


[Video]Background info: [Link: blogs.ocweekly.com…]

Wingnuts are all pointing fingers and gloating over this. But is it really an example of racism?

Tough call. At first glance it might me culturally insensitive but it seems the complaint is the guy is anti-immigration and anti-latino. Not sure how true those charges are,

62 Kragar  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:35:31am

But what about those Americans who worship fictional deities? Or is that redundant?

63 CuriousLurker  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:37:19am

re: #50 Cato the Elder

Did God create Muslims?

It seems that in the eyes of some we’re the work of Satan. Then again, so is everyone they disagree with.

64 mikhailtheplumber  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:37:38am

re: #58 Cato the Elder

Hands off my Babylonian Greco-Roman Judeo-Christian Euro-Barbarian Viking Druido-Celic heritage!

Fucking dentists.

I tell you, man. Dentists are sadists. Judeo-Christian sadists, of course.

65 Varek Raith  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:38:23am

re: #50 Cato the Elder

Did God create Muslims?

No.
Man created God.

66 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:38:23am

re: #53 Charles

..snip
Wingnuts are all pointing fingers and gloating over this. But is it really an example of racism?

Going with “probably racist, certainly an identity-politics hack”. (Drawn on a sample of 1/1000000000th of the information needed for a comprehensive judgement.)

67 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:38:59am

re: #61 Killgore Trout

Tough call. At first glance it might me culturally insensitive but it seems the complaint is the guy is anti-immigration and anti-latino. Not sure how true those charges are,

However, if the opponent is anti-immigration and anti-Latino, say *that*. Not a broad brush shot at an entire ethnic group.

If it’s not racist it’s minimally crass and stupid.

68 Kragar  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:39:07am

re: #64 mikhailtheplumber

I tell you, man. Dentists are sadists. Judeo-Christian sadists, of course.

Do you need any more proof?

69 wrenchwench  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:40:06am

re: #57 Ericus58

I posted about this earlier this morning.
Clearly, she is pandering to a specific ethnic group that she is part of. she highlight’s her opponents enthnicity and makes a point of it - as if it’s unseemly.

She doesn’t mention his positions, his experience or past actions in an elected position.
Rather, she brings up his race.

Yes. She is being racists.

You’re asking a lot from a 30 second video. Or did you see a longer clip? The seven minute one at the link Charles gave for background wouldn’t play for me.

Acknowledging that there is a Vietnamese community, and that there is a Hispanic community, and I suppose a community of Democrats and one of Republicans, is not racism. And the Orange County Vietnamese community is strongly Republican, as the whole county used to be.

70 Gus  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:40:12am

re: #57 Ericus58

I posted about this earlier this morning.
Clearly, she is pandering to a specific ethnic group that she is part of. she highlight’s her opponents enthnicity and makes a point of it - as if it’s unseemly.

She doesn’t mention his positions, his experience or past actions in an elected position.
Rather, she brings up his race.

Yes. She is being racists.

I can ponder that. However, I think it might just be a flub and was instead trying to say “the Vietnamese community.” I don’t think the right wing really cares if it’s racist or not and are merely using it fabricate a “gotcha” meme against Democrat. It’s pretty obvious that Andrew Breitbart has been trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill with this flub.

71 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:40:13am

re: #68 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I’ll see your Little shop of horrors and raise you a bill cosby

72 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:41:35am

re: #70 Gus 802

I can ponder that. However, I think it might just be a flub and was instead trying to say “the Vietnamese community.” I don’t think the right wing really cares if it’s racist or not and are merely using it fabricate a “gotcha” meme against Democrat. It’s pretty obvious that Andrew Breitbart has been trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill with this flub.

True. That’s why I hate to see a Dem feed him slowballs.

73 jaydub  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:44:41am

Perhaps the original authors/editors of those textbooks thought the purpose of education was to expose people to new or unfamiliar ideas. I know I would have glazed over at yet another history lesson of Christianity, which I got in spades from my Sunday School/CCD curriculum. Learning who “The Moors” or “The Mohammedans” or “The Persians” were would actually have constituted new information for me.

74 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:44:54am

re: #72 Decatur Deb

If she was speaking in spanish, then it’s a lost in translation bit I am sure. Breitfart has proven he’ll twist anything so why not a language translation? Further he knows jack about the OC and how various ethnic communities trend politically. I live here and the Vietnamese community is pretty republican. It’s also, for the most part, not bad off financially and gives a lot of money politically.

75 Lidane  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:45:53am

re: #65 Varek Raith

No.
Man created God.

76 Gus  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:46:10am

re: #72 Decatur Deb

True. That’s why I hate to see a Dem feed him slowballs.

It’s almost like they’re saying, “see Sanchez said Vietnamese so she’s a racist so Democrats are racist and now you can’t talk!!11ty”

77 Ericus58  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:46:38am

re: #70 Gus 802

I can ponder that. However, I think it might just be a flub and was instead trying to say “the Vietnamese community.” I don’t think the right wing really cares if it’s racist or not and are merely using it fabricate a “gotcha” meme against Democrat. It’s pretty obvious that Andrew Breitbart has been trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill with this flub.

Breitbrat is gonna always try and find ways of staying relevant - truth be damned.

However, this congresswoman makes a point of bring in race as an issue.
I take her message as being “C’mon guys, us Latinos… we’ve worked hard for this, it belongs to us. Really, could one of ‘them’ truly have our interests at heart?!”

In my view, this is no different that a white congressmen saying a black candidate couldn’t represent his enthic group fairly.

He’s Black.

78 CuriousLurker  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:46:47am

You know what I don’t like about the CBS article? The graphic of the Texas flag with the star & crescent next to the school books. It’s intended to provoke a negative visceral reaction and is quite successful in doing so, IMO.

79 Varek Raith  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:47:48am
80 Varek Raith  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:48:46am

re: #78 CuriousLurker

You know what I don’t like about the CBS article? The graphic of the Texas flag with the star & crescent next to the school books. It’s intended to provoke a negative visceral reaction and is quite successful in doing so, IMO.

Crescent???

..
.
ZOMGWTFMUSLIMSYMBOLOGY!!!

81 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:49:15am

re: #76 Gus 802

It’s almost like they’re saying, “see Sanchez said Vietnamese so she’s a racist so Democrats are racist and now you can’t talk!!11ty”

Pittsburgh ethnic politics was full of “our” precinct and “their” precinct. Dems can call a dog as well as the other guy.

82 wrenchwench  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:51:11am

re: #77 Ericus58

Breitbrat is gonna always try and find ways of staying relevant - truth be damned.

However, this congresswoman makes a point of bring in race as an issue.
I take her message as being “C’mon guys, us Latinos... we’ve worked hard for this, it belongs to us. Really, could one of ‘them’ truly have our interests at heart?!”

In my view, this is no different that a white congressmen saying a black candidate couldn’t represent his enthic group fairly.

He’s Black.

Others have said she’s saying “us Democrats”, in which case she’s being “partyist”, which is kind of what politics is all about.

83 iossarian  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:51:27am

re: #77 Ericus58


In my view, this is no different that a white congressmen saying a black candidate couldn’t represent his enthic group fairly.

I don’t know enough about Orange County and its Vietnamese and Hispanic populations to comment on that specific case, but I do think it’s worth pointing out that there is a difference between a white politician disparaging black people and a black politician disparaging white people, which is the different history of oppression of one group by another.

Of course, on one level the actions are the same. But, for me, in order for there to be equality of condemnation, there has to be social/economic equality first.

84 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:51:43am

re: #61 Killgore Trout

Tough call. At first glance it might me culturally insensitive but it seems the complaint is the guy is anti-immigration and anti-latino. Not sure how true those charges are,

I’m voting for racist. Sanchez speaks of Tran as though he represents an ethnic group in general (“the Vietnamese and the Republicans”) and portrays this as a threat to a comparably broad ethnic group she purports to represent. It is plainly an appeal based on ethnic identification if nothing else. Substitute “the blacks” or “the Jews” or even “the Irish” for “the Vietnamese” and see how it plays.

The larger point though is that the entire wingnut universe will loudly claim vindication if they find one Democrat anywhere, of any minuscule significance at all, who says the kinds of things the right-wing says in its official statements every day. While you’re substituting terms, in fact, you can dial in “Muslims” and see if it doesn’t sound very familiar.

85 Interesting Times  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:51:57am

re: #82 wrenchwench

Others have said she’s saying “us Democrats”, in which case she’s being “partyist”, which is kind of what politics is all about.

Any Spanish speakers here right now who could translate the video?

86 Ericus58  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:53:12am

re: #82 wrenchwench

Others have said she’s saying “us Democrats”, in which case she’s being “partyist”, which is kind of what politics is all about.

Oh, I can and would expect using party affiliations in the election.

87 Gus  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:53:29am

re: #84 Shiplord Kirel

I’m voting for racist. Sanchez speaks of Tran as though he represents an ethnic group in general (“the Vietnamese and the Republicans”) and portrays this as a threat to a comparably broad ethnic group she purports to represent. It is plainly an appeal based on ethnic identification if nothing else. Substitute “the blacks” or “the Jews” or even “the Irish” for “the Vietnamese” and see how it plays.

The larger point though is that the entire wingnut universe will loudly claim vindication if they find one Democrat anywhere, of any minuscule significance at all, who says the kinds of things the right-wing says in its official statements every day. While you’re substituting terms, in fact, you can dial in “Muslims” and see if it doesn’t sound very familiar.

OK, this works for me. +1

88 Cato the Elder  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:53:38am

A stupid, racist Democrat?

Say it ain’t so!

89 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:54:33am

re: #88 Cato the Elder

A stupid, racist Democrat?

Say it ain’t so!

Oh. You’ve met my representative.

90 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:54:44am

re: #85 publicityStunted

Any Spanish speakers here right now who could translate the video?

I can. The on-screen translation is accurate. I don’t think Sanchez is a native speaker btw, or it may only be my tejano-conditioned ear.

91 Ericus58  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:55:33am

re: #83 iossarian

I don’t know enough about Orange County and its Vietnamese and Hispanic populations to comment on that specific case, but I do think it’s worth pointing out that there is a difference between a white politician disparaging black people and a black politician disparaging white people, which is the different history of oppression of one group by another.

Of course, on one level the actions are the same. But, for me, in order for there to be equality of condemnation, there has to be social/economic equality first.

That made no sense at all.
Are you trying to say that some use of pitting one ethnic group against another is okay - can be held to a different standard?

92 CuriousLurker  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:56:17am

re: #85 publicityStunted

Any Spanish speakers here right now who could translate the video?

My Spanish is a little rusty, but the words she’s using are pretty straightforward and the translation looks accurate to me.

93 Gus  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:58:41am

Just keep in mind that you’re dealing with a Breitbart edited video.

94 iossarian  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:59:42am

re: #91 Ericus58

That made no sense at all.
Are you trying to say that some use of pitting one ethnic group against another is okay - can be held to a different standard?

I’m not saying “it’s OK”. I’m saying that one can have a different level of condemnation for an instance of a member of a privileged group disparaging an unprivileged group than vice-versa. Shades of gray.

For example, not all white people were racists during the slavery era. Would you have condemned a black slave for saying “white people are oppressing us” as much as you would have condemned a white slave-owner for saying “black people are inferior”?

95 Ericus58  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 10:59:57am

re: #84 Shiplord Kirel

I’m voting for racist. Sanchez speaks of Tran as though he represents an ethnic group in general (“the Vietnamese and the Republicans”) and portrays this as a threat to a comparably broad ethnic group she purports to represent. It is plainly an appeal based on ethnic identification if nothing else. Substitute “the blacks” or “the Jews” or even “the Irish” for “the Vietnamese” and see how it plays.

The larger point though is that the entire wingnut universe will loudly claim vindication if they find one Democrat anywhere, of any minuscule significance at all, who says the kinds of things the right-wing says in its official statements every day. While you’re substituting terms, in fact, you can dial in “Muslims” and see if it doesn’t sound very familiar.

Good post, Shiplord. And yes, I agree with your second para. - well done.

96 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:00:12am

re: #93 Gus 802

Just keep in mind that you’re dealing with a Breitbart edited video.

Pimpn’Ho Productions.

97 reine.de.tout  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:00:28am

re: #84 Shiplord Kirel

I’m voting for racist. Sanchez speaks of Tran as though he represents an ethnic group in general (“the Vietnamese and the Republicans”) and portrays this as a threat to a comparably broad ethnic group she purports to represent. It is plainly an appeal based on ethnic identification if nothing else. Substitute “the blacks” or “the Jews” or even “the Irish” for “the Vietnamese” and see how it plays.

The larger point though is that the entire wingnut universe will loudly claim vindication if they find one Democrat anywhere, of any minuscule significance at all, who says the kinds of things the right-wing says in its official statements every day. While you’re substituting terms, in fact, you can dial in “Muslims” and see if it doesn’t sound very familiar.

I agree, and updinged, and the R’s have become a party of racists and racism, much to my deep dismay.

But I do believe we should recognize and call out racist statement wherever they come from.

98 iossarian  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:00:45am

BTW, I specifically said that I don’t know much about the quoted situation. I would say that the statement is racist as reported, but I have no idea what the context is.

99 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:01:49am

re: #88 Cato the Elder

A stupid, racist Democrat?

Say it ain’t so!

That was mostly what we had in Texas before about the mid 60s. My great-uncle Sam Rayburn rode herd on them fairly well for a long time. He kept the worst ones muzzled and out of power even if the rubes did keep electing them. He died in ‘61, and his former protege LBJ in particular slipped his leash and ran wild all over the world.

100 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:01:59am

re: #98 iossarian

context is everything and we all know breitfart is not context sensitive.

101 iossarian  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:03:36am

Another example: I have Jewish friends who would never visit Germany out of principle. I view this differently that I would, say, fundamentalist Christians who would never visit a Muslim country out of principle.

However, viewing the situations differently does not amount to excusing racial stereotyping in either case.

102 Ericus58  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:04:19am

re: #94 iossarian

I’m not saying “it’s OK”. I’m saying that one can have a different level of condemnation for an instance of a member of a privileged group disparaging an unprivileged group than vice-versa. Shades of gray.

For example, not all white people were racists during the slavery era. Would you have condemned a black slave for saying “white people are oppressing us” as much as you would have condemned a white slave-owner for saying “black people are inferior”?

Okay, that makes more sense to me. Good point.

But I think in this specific instance, it’s quite apparent the intent and meaning of Ms. Sanchez in this video to this specific audience.

103 Kragar  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:05:32am

Is it just me or does the GOP YouCut Initiative sound like a massive failure waiting to happen?

104 wrenchwench  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:06:28am

re: #98 iossarian

BTW, I specifically said that I don’t know much about the quoted situation. I would say that the statement is racist as reported, but I have no idea what the context is.

Here is a tiny slice of context, from the same author Charles linked:

The next coming months will provide much political merriment in local elections, specifically in regards to Van Tran (trying to displace longtime Congresswoman Loretta Sanchez) and Costa Migra Mayor Allan Mansoor, who is facing Democrat Phu Nguyen (who recently, beautifully punked Mansoor) to replace Tran. Both paleo-conservatives will have to play ethnic politics to appeal to their races’ specific swing vote: Latinos, for Tran, and Vietnamese for Mansoor. And Muslims for the both…but I digress.

The California Coalition for Immigration Reform will hold its annual potluck meeting this Saturday. They’ve invited Tran and Mansoor to attend, along with other loser politicians. The million-peso question: will Mansoor and Tran accept the support of Orange County’s most notorious hate group?

Mansoor probably will, as he has partied with Coe in the past. So might Tran, as he sent a campaign flunky to address CCIR this past May. Of course, neither care that Coe started her career trashing Vietnamese immigrants as well and still trashes them, but who cares? The two need her smoke-stenched blessing to proceed, which—if the Dems were smart—is a blessing that should cost the candidates in the polls. Then again, this is Orange County…

Fascinating…

105 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:07:03am

re: #103 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Is it just me or does the GOP YouCut Initiative sound like a massive failure waiting to happen?

I thought that came and went already, sort of fell down a hole.

106 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:10:25am

re: #105 Decatur Deb

It’s a zombie. Just like the new incarnation of the “Contract with America”

107 Gus  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:10:39am

OK, here’s what I found just now. This is after I assumed she meant to say “Vietnamese community.”

We asked Loretta to clarify her remarks and I figure I should share what she told us.

“During the interview, I was referencing those in the Vietnamese community who are supporting my opponent.

“I am very proud of my congressional record over the past 13 years. I have fought for good-paying jobs, high performing schools, safe neighborhoods, quality, affordable health care, and human rights. These are critical issues for all families in the 47th Congressional District, including those in the Vietnamese community.

“Ultimately, this election is up to the voters. I humbly ask for their vote so that we can continue to move forward – not backward – for the people of Orange County.”

Believe what you want to believe. The full Univision video can be seen here.

108 wrenchwench  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:11:25am

re: #104 wrenchwench

Here is a tiny slice of context, from the same author Charles linked:

Fascinating…

Here’s another one:

I have trashed Congresswoman Loretta Sanchez mucho over the years, and will continue to do so, as I find her ineffective, too obsessed with her skin color, and hardly the liberal—let alone progressive—that her apostles make her out to be while trashing DREAM Act students. But Loretta is at least harmless and has never been involved in as much shadiness as her Republican opponent this election, Van Tran, a politicians I have trashed even more over the years. I probably won’t vote for Loretta this time around, but I’d rather vote for Rocco than Tran. It’s pretty apparent, no?

You can imagine my surprise yesterday, then, when I received a call from the Tran campaign asking for my support for their Boss.

I can’t even remember what the young woman on the other line was saying, other than her last line—“Can we count on your support…” before I cut her off, began laughing, and asked her to do better research. Seriously? Me? A Mexican who, if Tran’s campaign had done the proper research, hasn’t voted for a Republican in a partisan election since (I think) ever (instead of voting for the Democratic jokers, I usually vote Libertarian or Green)? Who has written such nasty things about Tran over the years? Who’s, you know, Mexican, a group Tran and his Trannies have trashed whenever possible as the GOP’s model minorities? Tran wants my vote? HAHAHAHAHA!

I’m sure I’m not the only Mexi yesterday who received such a phone call, which means Tran’s machine is working overtime in the delusional theory that they can actually take down Loretta. Won’t happen—though the Dems are suffering badly, Mexis are also ready to take holy hell against any SB1070-supporting Republican. And just wait until the Loretta machine paints Tran as the Mexi-bashing, gay-trashing baboso he is…

109 darthstar  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:11:36am

re: #41 beekiller

A text book should be neither pro nor anti any religion.

Well, there goes my idea of writing a book entitled “The Lutherans Are Evil Guide to Sentence Diagramming”
/

110 Killgore Trout  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:12:51am
111 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:13:15am

re: #108 wrenchwench

Here’s another one:

Sounds like two sides of the same coin. Both preferring to cast the contest via identity politics.

112 jamesfirecat  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:14:11am

re: #110 Killgore Trout

Good news for Democrats: Sarah Palin: I’ll run if nobody else steps up

I wonder what kind of Hat Aretha Franklin will be wearing to Obama’s victory party two years and two months from now…

113 wrenchwench  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:15:12am

re: #107 Gus 802

Believe what you want to believe. The full Univision video can be seen here.

“Lo sentimos, pero este video no es disponible.”

114 Gus  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:16:40am

re: #113 wrenchwench

“Lo sentimos, pero este video no es disponible.”

Oh. Works here.

115 Killgore Trout  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:16:53am

re: #112 jamesfirecat

I wonder what kind of Hat Aretha Franklin will be wearing to Obama’s victory party two years and two months from now…

I’m wondering which Dem will follow 8 years of Obama. I don’t think Biden’s a very good pick for president but he could probably beat Palin if she runs again.

116 wrenchwench  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:19:11am

re: #114 Gus 802

Oh. Works here.

And your translated transcript will be posted soon?

/

117 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:19:20am

re: #115 Killgore Trout

I’m wondering which Dem will follow 8 years of Obama. I don’t think Biden’s a very good pick for president but he could probably beat Palin if she runs again.

I think Hillary would be more likely than Biden.

118 Gus  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:19:39am

re: #116 wrenchwench

And your translated transcript will be posted soon?

/

No can do. ;)

119 wrenchwench  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:21:00am

re: #118 Gus 802

No can do. ;)

Thanks anyway, back to work for me…

120 Cato the Elder  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:21:10am

re: #110 Killgore Trout

Good news for Democrats: Sarah Palin: I’ll run if nobody else steps up

Another anti-wanker.

“I don’t need … any kind of self-gratification [sic!] or personal power-seeking of my own to run for office.”

121 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:22:31am

re: #115 Killgore Trout

I’m wondering which Dem will follow 8 years of Obama. I don’t think Biden’s a very good pick for president but he could probably beat Palin if she runs again.

Age is working against both, particularly the VP. Hilary, at 69, will still have the fire.

122 jamesfirecat  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:24:46am

re: #115 Killgore Trout

I’m wondering which Dem will follow 8 years of Obama. I don’t think Biden’s a very good pick for president but he could probably beat Palin if she runs again.

Hard to say, Hillary might want to try though she’d be getting on in years by that point wouldn’t she?

123 deranged cat  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:27:30am

re: #53 Charles

New outrageous outrage alert.

Right wing bloggers really love it when they find a Democrat who says something they can construe as racist, and here’s the latest example: Loretta Sanchez, a California Democrat who says (in Spanish): “the Vietnamese and the Republicans are trying to take away this seat.”


[Video]

Background info: [Link: blogs.ocweekly.com…]

Wingnuts are all pointing fingers and gloating over this. But is it really an example of racism?

This reminded me of an episode of This American Life, 381 “Turncoat”. They talked about how the San Jose City Councilwoman Madison Nguyen pissed off a LOT of the Vietnamese Community because she named an area “Saigon Business District” instead of “Little Saigon”. There were huge protests, some as large as 2500 and with many people coming as far as Orange County. They labelled her “pro-communist” and vilified her.

The episode also mentions that there was a lot of “red-baiting” in the Vietnamese community. I thought this was a particularly good quote:

… I think it’s a surprise for many people who are unfamiliar with the Vietnamese American community, how much of this name calling and suspicion still resonates. I think some people think it looks like it’s right out of the McCarthy Era when they view the Vietnamese american community.

There are tons of examples of this kind of red baiting.. the first Vietnamese superintendent of schools in the Westminster school district in Orange County was removed a week after she was appointed because an activist lobbied school board members, saying she was a communist.”

Sanchez is a congresswoman for 47th congressional district in Orange County that includes Garden Grove, and according to Wikipedia..

The large Vietnamese-American communities in Garden Grove and Westminster are predominantly Republican; Vietnamese Americans registered Republicans outnumber those registered as Democrats by 55% to 22%.
124 allegro  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:28:39am

re: #122 jamesfirecat

Hard to say, Hillary might want to try though she’d be getting on in years by that point wouldn’t she?

I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see Al Franken in the running. He has been impressing me.

125 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:30:51am

re: #124 allegro

I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see Al Franken in the running. He has been impressing me.

Clinton-Franken 2016?

Can they recycle the old ACP commercials from Franken’s SNL days and use them for something?

126 KingKenrod  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:31:46am

If the GOP were running a white candidate (or even a Hispanic), would Sanchez have pointed out that the Vietnamese (or part of the Vietnamese community, as she later tried to clarify) were trying to take the House seat away? I don’t think so. She’s specifically trying to use Tran’s ethnicity and his ethnic group to motivate her base.

127 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:35:30am

re: #123 deranged cat

I’m to a large degree not surprised by that. Isn’t the OC Vietnamese community essentially based on an exile community much as the Cuban community in Miami? Which would tend to espouse conservative politics and be virulently anti-communist to the point that it becomes over-used as the preferred negative label to attempt to stick on any opponent.

128 jamesfirecat  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:36:58am

re: #124 allegro

I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see Al Franken in the running. He has been impressing me.

Maybe he’ll finance his presidential run through a lesbian sex phone hotline….

And have his brother beat Osama Bin Laden to death with a board….

(Read “Why not Me” and it’ll make sense…)

130 Kragar  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:44:32am

I don’t see how any one who supposedly follows the news can make this conclusion;

Pledge to America: Are Social Conservatives Losing Their Voice in the GOP?

The Pledge seems to me to be a frantic last gasp by the traditional GOP to try and cover up the Socon agenda they’ve been forced to subscribe to due to the TPers.

131 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:45:30am

re: #129 Killgore Trout

10 Major New Health Reform Benefits Take Effect Today

Did you see the front page of the Oregonian?

As of today, most of the big insurers in Oregon will no longer offer child-only plans.

It’s the pre-existing condition thing. Kids have a. accidents and b. major diseases.

You can’t buy insurance after a broken arm, but you could buy one for a kid with cancer.

132 Killgore Trout  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:49:05am

re: #131 EmmmieG

Did you see the front page of the Oregonian?

As of today, most of the big insurers in Oregon will no longer offer child-only plans.

It’s the pre-existing condition thing. Kids have a. accidents and b. major diseases.

You can’t buy insurance after a broken arm, but you could buy one for a kid with cancer.

I haven’t seen that. I have Kaiser which requires me to see a Kaiser doctor. One of the new provisions….

Health reform makes it clear that you can choose any available participating primary care provider as your provider, and any available participating pediatrician to be your child’s primary care provider.


I wonder if that’s changed. I’m also pretty worried about rate hikes over the next few years. There are still no substantial cost controls in place.

133 Lidane  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:50:49am

re: #130 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I don’t see how any one who supposedly follows the news can make this conclusion;

Pledge to America: Are Social Conservatives Losing Their Voice in the GOP?

What you’re seeing there is the spin that the traditional GOP is hoping to place on the Tea Party fiasco. By pretending that the socons are losing their influence when the candidates in the media like Angle and O’Donnell are grabbing all the headlines, they’re trying to re-exert their dying influence.

It’s bullshit. The insane are running the asylum and both the Tea Party and the power brokers know it.

134 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:52:54am

re: #132 Killgore Trout

I haven’t seen that. I have Kaiser which requires me to see a Kaiser doctor. One of the new provisions…


I wonder if that’s changed. I’m also pretty worried about rate hikes over the next few years. There are still no substantial cost controls in place.

They would have to balance rate hikes with the provisions that will cost the insurers a lot of money, like the pre-existing conditions stuff.

135 Kragar  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:53:29am

re: #133 Lidane

What you’re seeing there is the spin that the traditional GOP is hoping to place on the Tea Party fiasco. By pretending that the socons are losing their influence when the candidates in the media like Angle and O’Donnell are grabbing all the headlines, they’re trying to re-exert their dying influence.

It’s bullshit. The insane are running the asylum and both the Tea Party and the power brokers know it.

Thats what I said. By failing to address any of the Socon Agenda in the pledge, they’re trying to distance themselves from it, or hide it, but the Tea Party isn’t going to let them.

136 Lidane  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:55:39am

re: #135 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Thats what I said. By failing to address any of the Socon Agenda in the pledge, they’re trying to distance themselves from it, or hide it, but the Tea Party isn’t going to let them.

Pretty much. Honestly, that Pledge is so blatantly dishonest it’s hilarious. They’re actively trying to minimize the socon agenda when it’s so clearly driving the party right now. Talk about cognitive dissonance.

137 Ericus58  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:57:22am

Great statement by the President at the U.N.:

‘“Israel’s existence must not be a subject for debate. Israel is a sovereign state, and the historic homeland of the Jewish people. It should be clear to all that efforts to chip away at Israel’s legitimacy will only be met by the unshakeable opposition of the United States,” he said.”

Thanks to Cheese Eating Victory Monkey for the Page on this.

138 lostlakehiker  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:58:24am

re: #83 iossarian

I don’t know enough about Orange County and its Vietnamese and Hispanic populations to comment on that specific case, but I do think it’s worth pointing out that there is a difference between a white politician disparaging black people and a black politician disparaging white people, which is the different history of oppression of one group by another.

Of course, on one level the actions are the same. But, for me, in order for there to be equality of condemnation, there has to be social/economic equality first.

I would say it is to the credit of the Vietnamese that they got here with just about nothing, had all those hurdles of language and culture to navigate, and nevertheless managed to escape their original social/economic inferiority.

These Vietnamese have no history of oppressing anybody.

139 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 11:59:50am

Sarah Palin/Ted Nugent 2012 !!
Now have a nice nightmare!!!
/

140 Gus  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:00:42pm

Dan Maes Calls Tom Tancredo ‘Illegal Immigrant’ In CO-GOV Race (AUDIO)

Short on friends and low on funds, Colorado Republican gubernatorial nominee Dan Maes has resorted to name-calling. In a radio interview on KHOW yesterday, he called third-party candidate and infamous immigration fear-monger Tom Tancredo an “illegal immigrant” in the gubernatorial race.

“You know, I went through the system,” Maes said on the Caplis & Silverman Show. “We’ve got an illegal immigrant in the system right now. And it’s a minor party candidate, who didn’t go through the system. And he went in the side door at the last minute. Now he’s trying to take a job away from someone who earned it.”

Two loons at each others throat.

141 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:00:49pm

re: #136 Lidane

Pretty much. Honestly, that Pledge is so blatantly dishonest it’s hilarious. They’re actively trying to minimize the socon agenda when it’s so clearly driving the party right now. Talk about cognitive dissonance.

There’s a good bit of socon pudding in there, but it’s expressed in polysyllables. Things will be much clearer in the Chick Comic version.

142 hartkid13  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:01:55pm

Pat Hardy was a teacher of mine in high school. She’s gotta be pounding her head against the desk. She’s so much better than these nematodes.

143 lostlakehiker  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:03:36pm

re: #131 EmmmieG

Did you see the front page of the Oregonian?

As of today, most of the big insurers in Oregon will no longer offer child-only plans.

It’s the pre-existing condition thing. Kids have a. accidents and b. major diseases.

You can’t buy insurance after a broken arm, but you could buy one for a kid with cancer.

So now, you can’t buy the coverage at all. Some reform. The new law creates a setting in which any insurance company that tries to offer such coverage will be ruined by the phenomenon of “adverse selection”. This is bad for people, but maybe it helps win elections because the insurance companies, as they try to escape the ruin that awaits them in the normal course of events, can be demonized.

Now I know that some insurance companies deserve scorn. The practice of revoking coverage on pretexts, the moment somebody who’s been paying their premiums falls seriously ill, is unconscionable. But it’s also illegal. It’s plain old fraud. Why do we need new laws, when we could simply enforce the old ones?

144 Yashmak  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:04:00pm

re: #3 Lidane

Most of what I’ve learned has come from my own reading and — gasp! — talking to people who are Muslim, like local imams, and having them answer my questions.

And rightly so. These folks are adding to a widespread problem in this country, the notion that it’s the primarily the educators’ responsibility to raise our children and provide them with a ‘moral framework’. It is not, nor has it ever been so. That responsibility lays first and foremost with the parents.

145 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:06:06pm

After reading the article I had to repeat my mantra.

To be angered by evil is to partake of it, stupid. - Phrases of Import and Salvation, Chapter IX, The Book of Universal Truths and Other Humorous Anecdotes

146 Gus  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:07:34pm

Factcheck!

Israeli delegation a no-show at U.N. due to religious holiday

(CNN) — Israel says its U.N. delegation was not able to attend the U.N. General Assembly session on Thursday because of the observance of Sukkot, a Jewish holiday.

“Due to the overwhelming number of calls and e-mails that we are receiving, even though it is the Jewish holiday of Sukkot, we feel that it is necessary to release the following statement,” the Israeli consulate in New York said.

147 jamesfirecat  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:07:51pm

re: #145 Romantic Heretic

After reading the article I had to repeat my mantra.

To be angered by evil is to partake of it, stupid. - Phrases of Import and Salvation, Chapter IX, The Book of Universal Truths and Other Humorous Anecdotes

I don’t understand what you’re saying.

Are you trying to argue that it is NEVER allowable for a human being to be outraged by the injustices or horrors around them?

148 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:08:20pm

re: #144 Yashmak

You’ve touched on the heart of the problem!!!
Parents!
Preferably two!
One will do!
…and BREAKFAST ..alltogether..at the kitchen table!!
I’m a dreamer ,I know!

149 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:08:53pm

re: #147 jamesfirecat

I don’t understand what you’re saying.

Are you trying to argue that it is NEVER allowable for a human being to be outraged by the injustices or horrors around them?

Of course not. Doing so leads to the Dark Side. And then they’d have to kill each other since there can only be two Sith about at one time…

//

150 Yashmak  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:09:11pm

re: #8 Dreggas

I’m all for covering Christianity in school textbooks. In fact there should be sections dedicated to:

The corruption of the early Church.
The Crusades.
The idea of indulgences that led to the protestant reformation.
The inquisition.
The use of christianity to kill or convert native populations.
The use of christianity in the witch hunts both in Europe (outside the inquisition)
and the Americas.
The use of christianity to justify slavery.
.

Actually, several of those things WERE in my AP European History course in high-school. I specifically recall coverage of the crusades, indulgences, and the period leading up to and including the reformation.

These things happened, and had a profound impact on human history. It’s intellectually dishonest for folks like these Texas BOE individuals to try to gloss them over, or claim some sort of “bias” against Christianity simply because they are presented in a history text book.

151 What, me worry?  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:09:34pm

re: #132 Killgore Trout

I haven’t seen that. I have Kaiser which requires me to see a Kaiser doctor. One of the new provisions…


I wonder if that’s changed. I’m also pretty worried about rate hikes over the next few years. There are still no substantial cost controls in place.

I don’t know about you, but my healthcare costs - visits, procedures, co-pay - have all increased each year for the past decade or so.

152 Gus  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:09:51pm

Clinging to “Dumbest Man on the Internet” title, Hoft wrongly declares Israel boycotted Obama’s UN speech (updated)

September 23, 2010 12:02 pm ET by Eric Schroeck

In what could only be an attempt to strengthen his grip on the title of “Dumbest Man on the Internet,” Jim Hoft declared that the Israeli delegation to the United Nations General Assembly boycotted President Obama’s speech this morning:

153 Lidane  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:11:44pm

re: #137 Ericus58

Great statement by the President at the U.N.:

‘“Israel’s existence must not be a subject for debate. Israel is a sovereign state, and the historic homeland of the Jewish people. It should be clear to all that efforts to chip away at Israel’s legitimacy will only be met by the unshakeable opposition of the United States,” he said.”

Cue the nutjobs saying that it’s all an insincere ruse from the Seekrit Mooslim Overlord, and that he really wants Al Qaeda to win in 3…2…1…

154 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:12:57pm

re: #153 Lidane

Cue the nutjobs saying that it’s all an insincere ruse from the Seekrit Mooslim Overlord, and that he really wants Al Qaeda to win in 3…2…1…

And that Mossad knew of the contents in advance so that the Israeli delegation knew to skip showing up…

///

155 TedStriker  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:15:13pm

re: #51 oaktree

I Moose-lim once bit my sister…

//

Was she Karving her initials on the møøse with the sharpened end of an interspace tøøthbrush?

156 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:17:40pm

re: #150 Yashmak
….Sad….All of thoughs dark days in history could have
been avoided but for one thing!
The ability to read!
No one questioned the Religious leaders of the time!

157 lawhawk  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:18:41pm

re: #152 Gus 802

Forget the *facepalm*. That deserves a *faceplant*

158 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:18:47pm

re: #156 reloadingisnotahobby

and todays right regards that as a good thing.

159 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:18:51pm

re: #156 reloadingisnotahobby

…Sad…All of thoughs dark days in history could have
been avoided but for one thing!
The ability to read!
No one questioned the Religious leaders of the time!

Some did. And nasty things tended to happen to them.

160 Amory Blaine  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:19:26pm

“The conservative-leaning and heavily evangelical Christian board pushed the item to a vote. “

Conservative leaning?

161 Ericus58  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:19:39pm

re: #138 lostlakehiker

I would say it is to the credit of the Vietnamese that they got here with just about nothing, had all those hurdles of language and culture to navigate, and nevertheless managed to escape their original social/economic inferiority.

These Vietnamese have no history of oppressing anybody.

I have a friend at work (not a co-worker, we’ve spent time together away from work also) who at this time is in Vietnam with his family for a month of vacation. He’s about 10 years younger.

He’s hard worker, honest and nice to everyone. Always pleasant and willing to help out those in need.

His family started with nothing, and they are not poor but sure not rich.
Hell would freeze over before he would knowingly offend someone.

Sure, he may not represent all within the Vietnamese community, but from what I’ve seen with my own eyes - his family and friends are not deserving of having dispersions cast upon them.

162 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:20:34pm

re: #158 Dreggas

re: #159 oaktree

…and today’s Charismatic “preachers” are counting on it again!

163 Gus  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:21:44pm

re: #157 lawhawk

Forget the *facepalm*. That deserves a *faceplant*

Seriously. Breitbart started that this morning. It was up at Drudge early on but now they added “Jewish holiday” to the Breitbart link. It’s all over the place though reading as “Israel boycotts Obama UN speech”.

164 Lidane  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:21:44pm

re: #160 Amory Blaine

“The conservative-leaning and heavily evangelical Christian board pushed the item to a vote. “

Conservative leaning?

Yep. Just like the Leaning Tower of Pisa. There’s an obvious slant, but everyone likes to pretend it’s just slightly tilted to one side.

165 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:22:12pm

re: #162 reloadingisnotahobby

re: #159 oaktree

…and today’s Charismatic “preachers” are counting on it again!

When “in God’s name” starts being attached to statements it might be advisable to check for escape routes.

166 Ericus58  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:22:16pm

re: #152 Gus 802

Clinging to “Dumbest Man on the Internet” title, Hoft wrongly declares Israel boycotted Obama’s UN speech (updated)

September 23, 2010 12:02 pm ET by Eric Schroeck

In what could only be an attempt to strengthen his grip on the title of “Dumbest Man on the Internet,” Jim Hoft declared that the Israeli delegation to the United Nations General Assembly boycotted President Obama’s speech this morning:

Hahahaha, what a Maroon.
Nice setup, wasn’t sure on why you posted the first post on the reason the Israeli deligations wasn’t in attendance.

167 Gus  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:23:48pm

re: #166 Ericus58

Hahahaha, what a Maroon.
Nice setup, wasn’t sure on why you posted the first post on the reason the Israeli deligations wasn’t in attendance.

Oh. Wasn’t planned. I was surfing the news on this and came across the CNN report first then happened by Media Matters on Hoft.

168 TedStriker  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:24:12pm

re: #160 Amory Blaine

“The conservative-leaning and heavily evangelical Christian board pushed the item to a vote. “

Conservative leaning?

If the TBOE is “conservative-leaning”, then Genghis Khan and Attilla the Hun were flaming liberals…

169 Cato the Elder  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:25:55pm

The Christian fascist coup in this country will be led by a coup of Christian fascists generals who are even now actively working to take over the military.

In other words, military dictatorship in America.

Discuss.

170 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:27:05pm

Never trust a “Preacher”that needs body gaurds and
an armored LIMO to take him to his private King Air at the
airport!

171 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:27:57pm

re: #169 Cato the Elder

….Fart and run??
LOL

172 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:30:01pm

re: #147 jamesfirecat

I don’t understand what you’re saying.

Are you trying to argue that it is NEVER allowable for a human being to be outraged by the injustices or horrors around them?

Allowable? Not quite.

It’s just that anger tends to lead to evil. An angry person stops thinking about what they are doing. If a person doesn’t know what they are doing it’s not likely that what they do will be a good thing.

173 iossarian  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:32:31pm

re: #169 Cato the Elder

The Christian fascist coup in this country will be led by a coup of Christian fascists generals who are even now actively working to take over the military.

In other words, military dictatorship in America.

Discuss.

This is why I always hate to see military officers give political opinions, regardless of which way they go. They should just stick to their day jobs.

174 Kragar  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:32:41pm

re: #170 reloadingisnotahobby

Never trust a “Preacher”that needs body gaurds and
an armored LIMO to take him to his private King Air at the
airport!

God’s plan sure seems pricey at times.

175 garhighway  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:33:47pm

re: #143 lostlakehiker

Why do we need new laws, when we could simply enforce the old ones?

Sue an insurance company for fraud?

Wouldn’t that be an anti-business, job-killing thing to do? Leading to much whining?

Seriously, do you think those problems were new, and that no one has tried to stop them?

Insurance companies are exquisitely good at math. They know that absent the government sending armies of lawyers after them, they are better off doing the shitty things they have always done and paying the occasional fine or judgment than they are doing the right thing.

176 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:34:03pm

re: #170 reloadingisnotahobby

Never trust a “Preacher”that needs body gaurds and
an armored LIMO to take him to his private King Air at the
airport!

But what if he’s had death threats?

177 Kragar  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:34:22pm

re: #169 Cato the Elder

The Christian fascist coup in this country will be led by a coup of Christian fascists generals who are even now actively working to take over the military.

In other words, military dictatorship in America.

Discuss.

Except despite popular belief to the contrary, the US Armed Forces are not made up of mindless automatons, who would just blindly follow the orders necessary to stage such a coup.

178 McSpiff  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:34:39pm

re: #176 EmmmieG

But what if he’s had death threats?

WWJD?

179 Cato the Elder  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:34:48pm

Jeff Sharley (author of “The Family”) on Chriso-fascists in the military:

“There’s an organization called Officers for Christian Fellowship. [It has] 15,000 members and they’re officers includes many top ranking generals and former general and admirals. They define their mission as reclaiming territory for the Christ in the military [and] not allowing the opposition, all of which is spearheaded by Satan, to stand in the way. That’s from their mission statement of what they’re doing. They even refer to military personnel who may be Christian but not saved — not Evangelical — as unwittingly doing the work of the enemy, of spiritual terrorists. And we’re talking about folks like Gen. Bob Caslen, a senior commander [and] Gen. Robert Van Antwerp, another senior commander. So when you have that level of command committed to these ideas, committed to the idea that the military exists to embody their understanding of Christian values, it’s not surprising that they can exert a force or a political influence that even a lot of the officers find difficult to resist.”

180 jamesfirecat  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:36:11pm

re: #172 Romantic Heretic

Allowable? Not quite.

It’s just that anger tends to lead to evil. An angry person stops thinking about what they are doing. If a person doesn’t know what they are doing it’s not likely that what they do will be a good thing.

David Brinn took this argument apart in his “review” of Star Wars.

[Link: www.salon.com…]

“Let’s see if I get this right. Fear makes you angry and anger makes you evil, right?

Now I’ll concede at once that fear has been a major motivator of intolerance in human history. I can picture knightly adepts being taught to control fear and anger, as we saw credibly in “The Empire Strikes Back.” Calmness makes you a better warrior and prevents mistakes. Persistent wrath can cloud judgment. That part is completely believable.

But then, in “Return of the Jedi,” Lucas takes this basic wisdom and perverts it, saying — “If you get angry — even at injustice and murder — it will automatically and immediately transform you into an unalloyedly evil person! All of your opinions and political beliefs will suddenly and magically reverse. Every loyalty will be forsaken and your friends won’t be able to draw you back. You will instantly join your sworn enemy as his close pal or apprentice. All because you let yourself get angry at his crimes.”

Uh, say what? Could you repeat that again, slowly?

In other words, getting angry at Adolf Hitler will cause you to rush right out and join the Nazi Party? Excuse me, George. Could you come up with a single example of that happening? Ever?

That contention is, in itself, a pretty darn evil thing to preach. Above all, it is just plain dumb.”

181 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:37:16pm
182 avanti  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:37:55pm

Amazing HS quarterback scramble:

Winning TD.

183 Cato the Elder  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:37:56pm

re: #179 Cato the Elder

PIMF: “Sharlet”

184 lawhawk  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:38:31pm

re: #179 Cato the Elder

I think you’re referring to Jeff Sharlet

185 Cato the Elder  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:41:29pm

re: #177 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

OK. Can’t happen here. Everybody go back to sleep.

186 Ericus58  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:41:37pm

re: #169 Cato the Elder

The Christian fascist coup in this country will be led by a coup of Christian fascists generals who are even now actively working to take over the military.

In other words, military dictatorship in America.

Discuss.

Never Happen.
My Son will not permit it.
Nor would I.

/searches craigslist for used Death Star….

187 HappyWarrior  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:46:29pm

These people are lunatics and in a just world would be regarded as such and not on the schoolboard of a major state. I feel bad for the kids of Texas who have these nuts deciding what they learn in school.

188 Kragar  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:51:22pm

re: #185 Cato the Elder

OK. Can’t happen here. Everybody go back to sleep.

The idea that an Officer Corps made up of Agnostics, Atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, and countless other faiths would fall in behind a Christian coup, and this would then lead to the enlisted ranks obeying the orders is preposterous.

189 DaddyG  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:51:27pm

re: #5 Obdicut

I love how they keep correcting themselves and saying “Judeo-Christianity” so they don’t look like bigots.

Guess what, fucker? Jews don’t want any part of your bullshit. Stop trying to pretend we’re a part of your theocracy.

We borrowed the parts for the car from you so we’re going to blame you when we run it off the road. /

190 DaddyG  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:53:19pm

re: #182 avanti

Amazing HS quarterback scramble:

Winning TD.


Those poor guys in the white uniforms are going to have 24x7 tackling drills all next week.

191 Kragar  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 12:59:11pm

I’m not arguing that Christian nutballs wouldn’t like to wage a coup, but its not going to happen anymore than the liberal fantasy of storming the White House to seize Bush and have the military fall in behind them thanking them for doing it would have happened.

192 Cato the Elder  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 1:00:23pm

re: #188 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Tell me that again when some guy in sunglasses and a braided cap is giving orders from the White House.

193 Ericus58  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 1:03:59pm

re: #192 Cato the Elder

Tell me that again when some guy in sunglasses and a braided cap is giving orders from the White House.

MacArthur is dead.
Truman had his number but hard when he also thought he was above the Constitution.

194 BadgerB  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 1:06:47pm

re: #143 lostlakehiker

So now, you can’t buy the coverage at all. Some reform. The new law creates a setting in which any insurance company that tries to offer such coverage will be ruined by the phenomenon of “adverse selection”.

This is why for there to be universal coverage there had to be mandated coverage. You are right, you can’t JUST force insurance companies to accept new customers after they get sick, you have to require everybody to have some form of insurance all the time and since not everyone can afford the cost of even a minimal policy, the government skims a bit off the top of all coverage to subsidize coverage for those who need it.

If the goal is universal coverage, and you make the decision to avoid a single government payer system (Medicaid for all) AND you want to maintain the existing framework (insurance through work for most, independent for-profit insurance companies, hospitals, ect) then you pretty much have to end up with a variant of this system (Hawaii and Massachusetts serving as existing examples).

195 Kragar  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 1:11:16pm

I promise not to wear sunglasses or a braided cap when I start issuing orders from the White House.

196 Vambo  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 4:23:50pm

re: #143 lostlakehiker

So now, you can’t buy the coverage at all. Some reform. The new law creates a setting in which any insurance company that tries to offer such coverage will be ruined by the phenomenon of “adverse selection”. This is bad for people, but maybe it helps win elections because the insurance companies, as they try to escape the ruin that awaits them in the normal course of events, can be demonized.

Now I know that some insurance companies deserve scorn. The practice of revoking coverage on pretexts, the moment somebody who’s been paying their premiums falls seriously ill, is unconscionable. But it’s also illegal. It’s plain old fraud. Why do we need new laws, when we could simply enforce the old ones?

“Some”?

They all do the same shit.

The old laws aren’t working because they are enforced on a case-by-case basis… resulting in more spending(!!! OMG STOP THE SPENDING!!!), and not everyone has the time or money to sue and insurance company. (When did fiscons start preaching the virtues of lawsuits?!).

Why not just create new regulations and stop the fucking problem at the source? Oh, that would be anti-business because then insurance companies can’t get away with criminal behavior anymore.


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