Got a Question About Religion? Ask an Atheist

ReligionSeptember 2010 • Views: 9,480

A new Pew Research survey finds that the people most knowledgeable about religion are atheists.

Which shouldn’t be a surprise, really; that’s why they’re atheists.

Atheists and agnostics, Jews and Mormons are among the highest-scoring groups on a new survey of religious knowledge, outperforming evangelical Protestants, mainline Protestants and Catholics on questions about the core teachings, history and leading figures of major world religions.

On average, Americans correctly answer 16 of the 32 religious knowledge questions on the survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life. Atheists and agnostics average 20.9 correct answers. Jews and Mormons do about as well, averaging 20.5 and 20.3 correct answers, respectively. Protestants as a whole average 16 correct answers; Catholics as a whole, 14.7. Atheists and agnostics, Jews and Mormons perform better than other groups on the survey even after controlling for differing levels of education.

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190 comments

brookly red Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:05:38pm

Pollsters are of the devil...

Political Atheist Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:06:09pm

I caught this earlier in Pages. Anyone else notice the questions were really mostly religious history more than the core concepts or current doctrine?

Walter L. Newton Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:06:57pm

Don't get me started.

HappyWarrior Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:07:23pm

I read about this earlier. The most interesting thing for me was a majority of Protestants not knowing Luther was the spearhead behind Protestantism. I am not too surprised really. Most of the athiests and agnostics I know are smart on religious holy books and yeah it's precisely why they't not religious. I don't feel I really fit in to any religious or non religious category personally. I lovev what my cousin's husband did while he was a Marine though. He petitioned successfully along with his twin brother to get surfer on his dog tags. I don't surf but I love that since I too feel one with the ocean a lot.

calochortus Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:07:28pm

Speaking as an atheist, I'm often baffled by people's take on their own religion. As in, we should be charitable-just as long as the government isn't involved. Really? Is there any major religion that says charity is only good when it is privately dispensed.

Then there are the people who think the "teach a man to fish" thing is somewhere in the NT.

freetoken Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:08:13pm

re: #3 Walter L. Newton

All doctrines (teachings) have a history, though, and while sometimes it is believed that teachings come down from on high, they all started with some person/group somewhere.

brookly red Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:08:48pm

re: #3 Walter L. Newton

Don't get me started.

God just told me to make a beer run...

freetoken Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:09:30pm

re: #6 freetoken

That was meant for #2.

Our Precious Bodily Fluids Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:09:55pm

re: #2 Rightwingconspirator

I caught this earlier in Pages. Anyone else notice the questions were really mostly religious history more than the core concepts or current doctrine?

The previous post only had ten out of, I think it was, thirty-two questions.

As an aside, I'll hear none of this nonsense about current doctrine, because it's essentially the religious version of fan-fic.

Pythagoras Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:10:16pm

Link doesn't work for me.

Charles Johnson Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:12:34pm

Link is fixed now.

Dark_Falcon Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:13:44pm

I'm going to step back for a bit. I'll still check the thread and I'll be back once the religion discussion is over. I'm staying out of that because I don't really have anything to contribute.

CarleeCork Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:13:46pm

re: #11 Charles

Link is fixed now.

The link is busy, keep trying. The media has been talking about this all day.

NJDhockeyfan Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:17:29pm

re: #12 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to step back for a bit. I'll still check the thread and I'll be back once the religion discussion is over. I'm staying out of that because I don't really have anything to contribute.

Agreed. I don't ask many questions about religion at all but atheists aren't the ones I seek for answers when I do.

HappyWarrior Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:17:33pm

Shoot I knew most of the answers to those questions and I don't read holy books. Most of my knowledge comes from knowing history.

pharmmajor Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:18:39pm

This explains why Penn and Teller are able to offer some of the most accurate criticisms of organized religion.

Political Atheist Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:21:54pm

Smart critics will always do their homework. The average adherent? Not So Much. Apparently Islam, Hindu, and Buddhist religions don't count.

Vicious Babushka Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:22:41pm

I took an aptitude test about 30 years ago. One of the questions was "What is the main theme of the Book of Genesis?" I said, "The history of Abraham's family." The questioner was like, "What?" and I said, "You were expecting me to say 'Creation' but that's just the first chapter."

Mr Pancakes Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:24:00pm

re: #7 brookly red

God just told me to make a beer run...

Don't forget the pineapple pizza.

Vicious Babushka Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:24:07pm

Where can I find these questions? The link just has an analysis of the results.

brookly red Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:25:03pm

re: #19 Mr Pancakes

Don't forget the pineapple pizza.

surly you have something better to do?

b_sharp Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:25:26pm

re: #19 Mr Pancakes

Don't forget the pineapple pizza.

Ham and pineapple.

Mr Pancakes Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:25:30pm

re: #21 brookly red

surly you have something better to do?

I wish I could say I did.

brookly red Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:26:09pm

re: #23 Mr Pancakes

I wish I could say I did.

I pray for you...

Gus Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:26:18pm

re: #20 Alouette

Where can I find these questions? The link just has an analysis of the results.

[Link: features.pewforum.org...]

Mich-again Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:26:18pm

I think the strongest correlation to knowledge of religions would be to the person's education level.

As for the definition of an atheist being someone who does not believe in God, I think its a bit deeper than that. In my opinion there is a slight distinction between two different types of atheists. The ones who don't believe there is a God, and the ones who do believe there is no God.

Mr Pancakes Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:26:49pm

re: #24 brookly red

I pray for you...

I love you too man

lostlakehiker Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:26:53pm

Ludwig? Can a person be smart and still be religious?

But seriously, I think there's a statistical pitfall here. Atheists generally arrive at their position through independent thinking. They don't get there by being brought up that way, after all.

This makes it perfectly natural that atheists should be bright on average, and thus good at any sort of quiz. Even on religion. That doesn't make religious people shamefully ignorant of their faith. If you controlled for IQ, you'd probably find that religious people know more about their own faith than do atheists.

Cannadian Club Akbar Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:26:56pm

re: #19 Mr Pancakes

Don't forget the pineapple pizza.

re: #22 b_sharp

Ham and pineapple.

LET IT GO!!!

NJDhockeyfan Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:27:09pm

re: #22 b_sharp

Ham and pineapple.

Pepperoni and mushrooms.

Mr Pancakes Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:28:04pm

re: #30 NJDhockeyfan

Pepperoni and mushrooms.

With anchovies

Political Atheist Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:28:33pm

Seems the average religious person knew about as much as the average American knows about who their state representatives are.
And then comparing that level of understanding with the critics of each parties policies understanding of the same.

brookly red Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:28:50pm

re: #27 Mr Pancakes

I love you too man

it's a tough room... only the truly flippant survive.

Vicious Babushka Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:29:47pm

re: #25 Gus 802

[Link: features.pewforum.org...]

I scored 100%! Aced them all except for the "Great Awakening" question, that was just a wild-ass guess.

I am not an atheist.

Cannadian Club Akbar Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:29:52pm

re: #32 Rightwingconspirator

Seems the average religious person knew about as much as the average American knows about who their state representatives are.
And then comparing that level of understanding with the critics of each parties policies understanding of the same.

I consider most people as morons.

Killgore Trout Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:30:09pm

What would Mithra do?

brookly red Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:30:15pm

re: #30 NJDhockeyfan

re: #31 Mr Pancakes

Charles may be in your head but I am in your gut...
Muahwhahahah!

Political Atheist Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:30:19pm

re: #28 lostlakehiker

I meant my 32 to be a reply and agreement with your first line.

Gus Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:30:56pm

re: #34 Alouette

I scored 100%! Aced them all except for the "Great Awakening" question, that was just a wild-ass guess.

I am not an atheist.

I got 80 percent. Pretty good considering I don't think I really have good religious knowledge. Still above all other groups. I even beat the other atheists. ;)

b_sharp Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:31:04pm

re: #29 Cannadian Club Akbar

re: #22 b_sharp

LET IT GO!!!

Oh, for crying out loud. OK. Canadian bacon and pineapple.

Is that better?

HappyWarrior Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:31:13pm

re: #34 Alouette

I scored 100%! Aced them all except for the "Great Awakening" question, that was just a wild-ass guess.

I am not an atheist.

Only one I guessed on was the Jewish sabbath. I chose Saturday though I had the thought it was Friday. At least I think that was the only question I got wrong.

luther70 Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:31:46pm

I think this is for two reasons. Some learn a bit about religions and decided they are atheist. Others are atheist and learn a bit about religion so they can argue better about it. The sample quiz was a little Bible biased.

Cannadian Club Akbar Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:31:50pm

re: #40 b_sharp

Oh, for crying out loud. OK. Canadian bacon and pineapple.

Is that better?

Pepperoni and jalapenos.

b_sharp Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:32:26pm

re: #34 Alouette

I scored 100%! Aced them all except for the "Great Awakening" question, that was just a wild-ass guess.

I am not an atheist.

I don't think the survey claims you have to be an atheist to score well.

NJDhockeyfan Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:32:42pm

re: #43 Cannadian Club Akbar

Pepperoni and jalapenos.

and sausage.

Mr Pancakes Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:32:44pm

re: #40 b_sharp

Oh, for crying out loud. OK. Canadian bacon and pineapple.

Is that better?

No....... You said ham.... Canadian bacon should never be confused with real bacon.

Cannadian Club Akbar Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:33:07pm

re: #45 NJDhockeyfan

and sausage.

Yes.

brookly red Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:33:56pm

re: #43 Cannadian Club Akbar

Pepperoni and jalapenos.

jalapeños, onion & black olives on a thin crust square...

Our Precious Bodily Fluids Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:34:02pm

Whether you are religious or not, I cannot recommend strongly enough Johnathan Miller's most excellent four-part series, A Rough History of Disbelief. It does not at all attempt to persuade the viewer to accept the atheist point of view, but it does a very good job of laying it all out and showing, as its title suggests, the history of disbelief in a world in which that has always been the minority view.

b_sharp Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:34:12pm

re: #46 Mr Pancakes

No... You said ham... Canadian bacon should never be confused with real bacon.

Canadian bacon is bacon with class.

brookly red Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:34:38pm

re: #45 NJDhockeyfan

and sausage.

isn't sausage the NJ state bird?

Mr Pancakes Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:34:43pm

re: #48 brookly red

jalapeños, onion & black olives on a thin crust square...

Works for me........ you get jalapenos out there in New Yawk?

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:35:14pm

re: #2 Rightwingconspirator

I caught this earlier in Pages. Anyone else notice the questions were really mostly religious history more than the core concepts or current doctrine?

A little history, a little doctrine, a little pop culture, a little geography.

I took the 32 question one.

Vicious Babushka Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:35:15pm

re: #44 b_sharp

I don't think the survey claims you have to be an atheist to score well.

I keep forgetting to include sarc tags.

Gus Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:35:45pm

re: #53 SanFranciscoZionist

A little history, a little doctrine, a little pop culture, a little geography.

I took the 32 question one.

Where is that quiz?

brookly red Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:35:50pm

re: #52 Mr Pancakes

Works for me... you get jalapenos out there in New Yawk?

Mr Pancakes Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:36:04pm

re: #50 b_sharp

Canadian bacon is bacon with class.

Bacon shouldn't have class...... it should be crunchy, greasy, and tasty.

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:36:17pm

re: #4 HappyWarrior

I read about this earlier. The most interesting thing for me was a majority of Protestants not knowing Luther was the spearhead behind Protestantism. I am not too surprised really. Most of the athiests and agnostics I know are smart on religious holy books and yeah it's precisely why they't not religious. I don't feel I really fit in to any religious or non religious category personally. I lovev what my cousin's husband did while he was a Marine though. He petitioned successfully along with his twin brother to get surfer on his dog tags. I don't surf but I love that since I too feel one with the ocean a lot.

I walked an Episcopalian friend through the 10-question one. She didn't know what Indonesia's majority religion was, otherwise, just cracking up.

"Aquinas, Luther or Wesley?"

"Luther. Who's Wesley?"

NJDhockeyfan Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:36:40pm

re: #51 brookly red

isn't sausage the NJ state bird?

NJ has great sausage. All the food in NJ is incredible.

BTW...the state bird I think is the mosquito.

Mich-again Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:36:44pm

I suppose the most rational person would be someone who doesn't believe in God because there is no proof. At the opposite end of that scale are the ones who are absolutely sure that there is a God along with the ones who are absolutely sure there isn't one. Both of those groups of people believe in something even though there is no proof to back it up.

JRCMYP Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:37:08pm

14/15--yes, I'm agnostic.

lostlakehiker Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:37:19pm

re: #5 calochortus

Speaking as an atheist, I'm often baffled by people's take on their own religion. As in, we should be charitable-just as long as the government isn't involved. Really? Is there any major religion that says charity is only good when it is privately dispensed.

Then there are the people who think the "teach a man to fish" thing is somewhere in the NT.

Well, the government doesn't do charity. The bill in question may be billed as designed to achieve some charitable end, but there's always another motive mixed in, and sometimes, no charitable intent or effect at all.

Religiously motivated charity, and even charity given privately by secular types, is mission oriented. Why give the money except in hope of getting the job done?

brookly red Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:37:29pm

re: #59 NJDhockeyfan

NJ has great sausage. All the food in NJ is incredible.

BTW...the state bird I think is the mosquito.

are you near Wayne? if so I got a great buffet for you...

Mr Pancakes Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:37:50pm

re: #56 brookly red

Si

Ándale pues.

HappyWarrior Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:37:54pm

re: #58 SanFranciscoZionist

I walked an Episcopalian friend through the 10-question one. She didn't know what Indonesia's majority religion was, otherwise, just cracking up.

"Aquinas, Luther or Wesley?"

"Luther. Who's Wesley?"

Wesley I want to say is the founder of the Methodists.

Our Precious Bodily Fluids Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:38:47pm

re: #22 b_sharp

Ham and pineapple.

I bet you like it on deep-dish crust, don't you? Pervert.
////

HappyWarrior Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:39:04pm

By the way on the subject of pizzas: Had one with pepperoni, feta cheese, and spinach Sunday night. That was heavenly.

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:39:37pm

re: #20 Alouette

Where can I find these questions? The link just has an analysis of the results.

I saw the 32-question one somewhere earlier this evening. Christian Science Monitor? Can't find it now.

NJDhockeyfan Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:39:39pm

re: #63 brookly red

are you near Wayne? if so I got a great buffet for you...

Actually I'm in Virginia but I visit my mom in Springfield once in a while. If I moved back in NJ I would probably gain tremendous weight.

Varek Raith Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:40:06pm

re: #60 Mich-again

I suppose the most rational person would be someone who doesn't believe in God because there is no proof. At the opposite end of that scale are the ones who are absolutely sure that there is a God along with the ones who are absolutely sure there isn't one. Both of those groups of people believe in something even though there is no proof to back it up.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:40:20pm

re: #26 Mich-again

I think the strongest correlation to knowledge of religions would be to the person's education level.

As for the definition of an atheist being someone who does not believe in God, I think its a bit deeper than that. In my opinion there is a slight distinction between two different types of atheists. The ones who don't believe there is a God, and the ones who do believe there is no God.

One of them was 'who is the king of the gods in Greek mythology?'

Now, I know people who worship Greek deities, but that seemed more like a general knowledge question.

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:41:03pm

re: #34 Alouette

I scored 100%! Aced them all except for the "Great Awakening" question, that was just a wild-ass guess.

I am not an atheist.

I knew that one because in Junior year the kiddos read "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God".

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:41:13pm

re: #36 Killgore Trout

What would Mithra do?

Kill a bull?

Mich-again Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:41:40pm

re: #71 SanFranciscoZionist

One of them was 'who is the king of the gods in Greek mythology?'

Now, I know people who worship Greek deities, but that seemed more like a general knowledge question.

Well, if Greek Mythology is a Religion, why do they teach about it in public schools?

TedStriker Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:41:43pm

re: #50 b_sharp

Canadian bacon is bacon with class.

No, Canadian bacon is city ham. Bacon and country ham are much tastier...

brookly red Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:41:44pm

re: #67 HappyWarrior

By the way on the subject of pizzas: Had one with pepperoni, feta cheese, and spinach Sunday night. That was heavenly.

infidels please note: religious threads become pizza threads... and so it is written (cause I just done writ it)

Mr Pancakes Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:41:52pm

re: #60 Mich-again

I suppose the most rational person would be someone who doesn't believe in God because there is no proof. At the opposite end of that scale are the ones who are absolutely sure that there is a God along with the ones who are absolutely sure there isn't one. Both of those groups of people believe in something even though there is no proof to back it up.

That's what it's great to be an Agnostic.

Cannadian Club Akbar Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:42:04pm

All righty. I need to find a new job and I have a chicken parm samich to eat. With extra pepper shells. See ya'll in the morning.

calochortus Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:42:19pm

re: #62 lostlakehiker

My language may have been a bit non-specific. Whether you call it charity or something else, I know people who consider themselves to be good Christians who don't think the government should be providing social services or a 'safety net'. I don't understand why not. Isn't looking after the less fortunate a fundamental value in Christianity (and most religions?) Does it matter how that aid or charity is delivered, just so long as it is available?

TedStriker Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:42:21pm

re: #65 HappyWarrior

Wesley I want to say is the founder of the Methodists.

Correct...John Wesley founded the Methodist church.

Our Precious Bodily Fluids Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:42:29pm

re: #48 brookly red

jalapeños, onion & black olives on a thin crust square...

sed -e 's/jalapeños/habaneros/g'

that's more like it.

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:42:30pm

re: #65 HappyWarrior

Wesley I want to say is the founder of the Methodists.

I think you're right.

NJDhockeyfan Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:42:30pm

Mich. teen kills 448-pound black bear with arrow

A 17-year-old Michigan girl began her big game hunting career with a bang - or rather a whoosh - by killing a 448-pound black bear with a bow and arrow from 16 yards away.
High school senior Jessica Olmstead of Battle Creek shot the bear during a hunting trip last month in Oba, Ontario.

She told the Battle Creek Enquirer for a story published Tuesday that the bear was the first animal she killed with the new bow.

"As soon as my dad got it for me I was immediately comfortable and I was ready to use it the next day," Jessica said.

"When I go out hunting, it's really exciting," she said. "Whenever I see a bear I just want to go at it. When you're hunting, your heart is racing, your blood is pumping, and you feel that adrenaline rush. I really love to hunt."

Vicious Babushka Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:42:34pm

re: #74 Mich-again

Well, if Greek Mythology is a Religion, why do they teach about it in public schools?

It's part of the Dead White Guys culture.

Mr Pancakes Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:42:35pm

re: #77 Mr Pancakes

That's what it's great to be an Agnostic.

why....... ok ok I'm not voting.

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:43:09pm

re: #74 Mich-again

Well, if Greek Mythology is a Religion, why do they teach about it in public schools?

Public schools teach about religion. They just don't teach religion.

Our Precious Bodily Fluids Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:43:36pm

re: #53 SanFranciscoZionist

A little history, a little doctrine, a little pop culture, a little geography.

I took the 32 question one.

link?

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:43:54pm

re: #83 NJDhockeyfan

Mich. teen kills 448-pound black bear with arrow

Well, that's impressive, but I'm still more impressed with the woman who drove off a bear with a zucchini.

TedStriker Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:44:07pm

re: #83 NJDhockeyfan

Mich. teen kills 448-pound black bear with arrow

Remind me to never piss her off...she'd probably field dress me where I stood ;-P

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:44:44pm

re: #87 negativ

link?

Gus posted it above.

calochortus Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:44:45pm

re: #77 Mr Pancakes

That's what it's great to be an Agnostic.

Except that if I'm correct the definition of agnosticism is that the nature of God is not knowable. That presupposes the existence of a god.

Vicious Babushka Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:44:48pm

The quiz seemed like more of a general cultural and historical survey than knowledge of religious doctrines.

brookly red Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:45:36pm

re: #66 negativ

I bet you like it on deep-dish crust, don't you? Pervert.
///

actually you can trace the thin crust aka unleven back to the Exodus... deep dish is of baal.

Gus Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:45:38pm

re: #68 SanFranciscoZionist

I saw the 32-question one somewhere earlier this evening. Christian Science Monitor? Can't find it now.

Here it is.

[Link: www.csmonitor.com...]

It's a "manual" test.

Randall Gross Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:45:54pm

OT: Update to Christine O'Donnell story, appears that she's passing off a stint at Claremont Institute, (notorious theocrat think tank - D'Souza and Spencer both came from there iirc) as Claremont Graduate University. Lying for JaySUS! knows no bounds with her.
[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

Vicious Babushka Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:46:11pm

re: #93 brookly red

actually you can trace the thin crust aka unleven back to the Exodus... deep dish is of baal.

Thin crust evolved from matzah!

Mr Pancakes Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:46:24pm

re: #91 calochortus

Except that if I'm correct the definition of agnosticism is that the nature of God is not knowable. That presupposes the existence of a god.

My definition is that I don't know for sure....... and I don't spend much time analyzing it.

Political Atheist Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:46:30pm

On the question of whether I'm smarter than an atheist... I'm an agnostic.

brookly red Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:46:57pm

re: #88 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, that's impressive, but I'm still more impressed with the woman who drove off a bear with a zucchini.

the beast came for her pizza... God was on her side.

100

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:47:11pm

re: #97 Mr Pancakes

My definition is that I don't know for sure... and I don't spend much time analyzing it.

My husband defines himself as an apathetic agnostic. He neither knows or cares if God exists.

101

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:47:45pm

re: #99 brookly red

the beast came for her pizza... God was on her side.

It bit her on the leg, apparently, when she tried to break up a fight between it and her dog. So she threw a big zucchini at it, and it went away.

Awesome.

102

Mich-again Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:48:13pm

re: #86 SanFranciscoZionist

Public schools teach about religion. They just don't teach religion.

I am not aware of any classes at my kids' public schools that teach about the Bible, even in a history class. Greek Mythology OTOH, has been a topic, and the kids were tested on their knowledge of the characters and stories. I can't imagine the kids having to brush up on Bible stories for an exam at school.
How many cubits long was the arc? Who was the evil king that ordered the children into the fire? That would never happen at Public school.

103

Mr Pancakes Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:48:24pm

re: #100 SanFranciscoZionist

My husband defines himself as an apathetic agnostic. He neither knows or cares if God exists.

Exactly. I fall into that category.

104

palomino Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:49:43pm

Atheists are probably more willing to learn about all the different religions. The devout often learn something about their own religion and don't bother with others because they are all "wrong" anyway.

105

HappyWarrior Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:49:48pm

re: #80 talon_262

Correct...John Wesley founded the Methodist church.

Thanks

106

brookly red Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:50:01pm

re: #101 SanFranciscoZionist

It bit her on the leg, apparently, when she tried to break up a fight between it and her dog. So she threw a big zucchini at it, and it went away.

Awesome.

Yeah I read the story too... funny bears & dogs are kinda similar & sometimes get along quite well. sometimes not.

107

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:50:10pm

re: #102 Mich-again

I am not aware of any classes at my kids' public schools that teach about the Bible, even in a history class. Greek Mythology OTOH, has been a topic, and the kids were tested on their knowledge of the characters and stories. I can't imagine the kids having to brush up on Bible stories for an exam at school.
How many cubits long was the arc? Who was the evil king that ordered the children into the fire? That would never happen at Public school.

Sixth grade in California includes units on both Judaism and Christianity, and the kids have to learn Biblical stories and their cultural significance. And I've taught lessons at a public school about literary allusions to Genesis.

108

Varek Raith Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:50:46pm

Ra>God
:P

109

b_sharp Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:50:57pm

re: #60 Mich-again

I suppose the most rational person would be someone who doesn't believe in God because there is no proof. At the opposite end of that scale are the ones who are absolutely sure that there is a God along with the ones who are absolutely sure there isn't one. Both of those groups of people believe in something even though there is no proof to back it up.

Proof isn't a word we should use much, evidence fits better. Although the absence of evidence for god had a part in convincing me, the narrowing of where god could possibly reside by the scientific process had more to do with it. One implies a passive quest for knowledge, the other implies active.

110

b_sharp Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:51:38pm

re: #66 negativ

I bet you like it on deep-dish crust, don't you? Pervert.
///

Abso-fricken-lootly.

111

NJDhockeyfan Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:52:19pm

THE PREACHER AND THE BEAR

A preacher went out a-hunting;
‘Twas on one Sunday morn.
It was against his religion,
But he took his gun along.
He shot himself some very fine quail,
And one little measly hare,
And on his way returning home,
He met a grizzly bear.
The bear marched out in the middle of the road,
And he waltzed for the coon to see.
The coon got so excited that he climbed a ‘simmon tree.
The bear set down upon the ground,
And the coon climbed out on a limb.
He cast his eyes to the God in the skies,
And this is what he said to him:

Chorus: “Oh, Lordy, you delivered Daniel from the lion’s den.
Also delivered Jonah from the belly of the whale and then
Three Hebrew children from the fiery furnace,
The good books do declare.
Now, Lord, Lordy, Lord, if you can’t help me,
For sakes, don’t help that bear.”

This coon stayed up in that there tree,
And I think it was all night.
He says, “Oh, Lord, if you don’t help the bear,
You’re gonna see an awful fight.”
Just about that time the limb let go,
And the coon came tumbling down.
You should have seen him get his razor
Before he hit the ground.
He hit the ground a-cutting right and left,
And he put up a very game fight.
Just then that bear, he hugged this coon,
And he squeezed him a little too tight.
The coon, he lost his razor,
But the bear held out with a vim.
He cast his eyes to the God in the skies,
And this is what he said to him:

(Chorus)

112

Mr Pancakes Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:52:39pm

re: #110 b_sharp

Abso-fricken-lootly.

Ohhhhh.... are you from Chicago? I'm not a big fan of lasagna on bread.

113

calochortus Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:52:45pm

re: #97 Mr Pancakes

An acceptable definition-I'm afraid I'm drawing on knowledge from a college class (lo these many years ago) that defined it more from the original, philosophical angle.

114

palomino Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:53:54pm

re: #83 NJDhockeyfan

Mich. teen kills 448-pound black bear with arrow

Must be a Ted Nugent fan. "Wango Tango! Let's go kill some shit."

115

lostlakehiker Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:54:08pm

re: #79 calochortus

My language may have been a bit non-specific. Whether you call it charity or something else, I know people who consider themselves to be good Christians who don't think the government should be providing social services or a 'safety net'. I don't understand why not. Isn't looking after the less fortunate a fundamental value in Christianity (and most religions?) Does it matter how that aid or charity is delivered, just so long as it is available?

No, it doesn't. But consider social security. It's partly charity, partly Ponzi scheme.
Consider "school lunch program". A lot of middle class families are included. That makes it kind of a waste.

In program after program, money advertised as "for the poor" shows up in the pockets of the middle class, middlemen, or well connected government officials.

116

Stanghazi Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:54:22pm

I'm piping in again. If anyone here (on the west coast) likes baseball, turn on PBS. NOW. so enjoyable. you missed Cal, but now my hero, Greg Maddox.

117

b_sharp Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:54:26pm

re: #81 negativ

sed -e 's/jalapeños/habaneros/g'

that's more like it.

You trying to kill yourself?

118

brookly red Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:54:35pm

re: #112 Mr Pancakes

Ohhh... are you from Chicago? I'm not a big fan of lasagna on bread.

pizza soup...

119

Political Atheist Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:54:38pm

Why would a protestant be expected to know whether Zeus, Mars or Apollo was king of the pagan gods?

Just not a reasonable question for the task at hand.

120

Varek Raith Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:55:14pm

re: #119 Rightwingconspirator

Why would a protestant be expected to know whether Zeus, Mars or Apollo was king of the pagan gods?

Just not a reasonable question for the task at hand.

They all have an equal chance of being "real"???

121

Our Precious Bodily Fluids Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:55:50pm

re: #83 NJDhockeyfan

Mich. teen kills 448-pound black bear with arrow

If my [hypothetical] daughter told me she felt a thrill from killing animals with medieval tools, I'd begin researching psychiatric help. On the other hand, if she told me she wanted to become a Marine sniper, a more supportive dad could be found. Make of that what you will, and keep in mind that I am glad I don't have children.

122

Lidane Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:56:01pm

re: #104 palomino

Atheists are probably more willing to learn about all the different religions.

That's because if you're going to reject the idea of any sort of deity or religious system to follow in your life, it helps to know what you're rejecting.

I've got a massive collection of books from across a variety of religious viewpoints-- Jewish, Buddhist, Taoist, Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, even Pagan/Wiccan and Hindu-- and I've read them all over the years. I just don't subscribe to any religion at all, nor do I believe in a deity. I'm an atheist. Still, having the knowledge of other faith systems is what not only enables me to talk about them, but to know that I don't believe in them, either.

123

Mich-again Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:56:22pm

Its only natural that thinking creatures who are the incredibly lucky results of an eons-long chain of highly improbable random events that led to their existence would think there must be some good explanation for why we are here other than just dumb luck. Thats why many people want to believe. It seems like the best explanation.

124

NJDhockeyfan Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:56:27pm

re: #116 Stanley Sea

I'm piping in again. If anyone here (on the west coast) likes baseball, turn on PBS. NOW. so enjoyable. you missed Cal, but now my hero, Greg Maddox.

I have DirecTV and am not allowed to get PBS.

125

Political Atheist Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:56:51pm

re: #120 Varek Raith

They all have an equal chance of being "real"???

Heh. It appears Pew makes a better seat in a church than a realistic survey.

126

Varek Raith Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:57:03pm

re: #125 Rightwingconspirator

Heh. It appears Pew makes a better seat in a church than a realistic survey.

Zing!

127

brookly red Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:57:09pm

re: #120 Varek Raith

They all have an equal chance of being "real"???

Mars is real... no doubt about it

128

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:57:12pm

Of course, the other reason public schools prefer teaching Greek myths to Bible stories is that it's very rare for an indignant parent to call up screaming because you taught their kid something blasphemous about the Eleusinian Mysteries. The Greeks are so SAFE.

129

Stanghazi Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:57:49pm

re: #124 NJDhockeyfan

you are SAD. Tom Glavine. this is such a good doc.

130

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:58:16pm

re: #115 lostlakehiker

No, it doesn't. But consider social security. It's partly charity, partly Ponzi scheme.
Consider "school lunch program". A lot of middle class families are included. That makes it kind of a waste.

In program after program, money advertised as "for the poor" shows up in the pockets of the middle class, middlemen, or well connected government officials.

Middle class families normally pay for school lunch, at least around here. That makes it easier to provide for families with less.

131

Mich-again Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:58:19pm

re: #128 SanFranciscoZionist

True. No one is ever going to call the principal to complain about the slanted curricullum.

132

brookly red Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:58:29pm

re: #127 brookly red

Mars is real... no doubt about it

and so is Bacchus :)

133

Mr Pancakes Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:58:33pm

re: #113 calochortus

An acceptable definition-I'm afraid I'm drawing on knowledge from a college class (lo these many years ago) that defined it more from the original, philosophical angle.

I'm not religious, philosophical, nor do I deny or accept that there is a god.

I watch NFL football on Sundays and that's about as philosophical as I get.....

I think your college class put way too much effort into it.

134

b_sharp Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:58:56pm

re: #112 Mr Pancakes

Ohhh... are you from Chicago? I'm not a big fan of lasagna on bread.

Chicago?

I'm a Canuck.

135

HappyWarrior Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:59:42pm

=re: #129 Stanley Sea

you are SAD. Tom Glavine. this is such a good doc.

Two three hundred game winners who were on the same team in their primes. Doubt you'll ever see that again and of course there was Smoltz too. Not a Braves fan but that big three was an amazing trio. Glavine was my favorite because I am a lefty too and pitched in little league. Loved pitching. It was really enjoyable for me.

136

Randall Gross Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:59:44pm

re: #102 Mich-again

Here you go, Michigan GLCE, World religions listed just as one example in 7thy grade.

[Link: www.michigan.gov...]

137

brookly red Tue, Sep 28, 2010 8:59:51pm

re: #124 NJDhockeyfan

I have DirecTV and am not allowed to get PBS.

what? not allowed PBS? heh there is a God for sure.

138

Gus Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:00:13pm

Where's Slumbering Behemoth?

139

brookly red Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:00:40pm

re: #134 b_sharp

Chicago?

I'm a Canuck.

so how is the beaver pie?

140

Stanghazi Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:00:52pm

Torre Time!

141

Our Precious Bodily Fluids Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:01:28pm

re: #121 negativ

erg, could not be found.

HEY CHARLES. I'D SUBSCRIBE IF IT INCLUDED AN EDIT FUNCTION.

Make the ability to edit permanently expire 120 seconds (or so) after the original post, and that weeds out the hit-and-runs. Or don't.

142

b_sharp Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:01:33pm

re: #120 Varek Raith

They all have an equal chance of being "real"???

Considering life looks designed by (a drunk) committee, I'd say the Greeks have a better chance of being right than monotheists.

143

Mr Pancakes Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:02:05pm

re: #129 Stanley Sea

you are SAD. Tom Glavine. this is such a good doc.

Let's not forget about Steve Avery........ that was a great pitching trio.

144

brookly red Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:02:28pm

re: #142 b_sharp

Considering life looks designed by (a drunk) committee, I'd say the Greeks have a better chance of being right than monotheists.

I told you Bacchus is real...

145

HappyWarrior Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:02:35pm

re: #143 Mr Pancakes

Let's not forget about Steve Avery... that was a great pitching trio.

Forgot about Avery.
Maddux-Glavine-Smoltz-Avery. Quite a bunch.

146

Mr Pancakes Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:03:03pm

re: #134 b_sharp

Chicago?

I'm a Canuck.

Chicago, Canuck...... all the same no? Up there where it snows anyway.

147

calochortus Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:03:31pm

re: #115 lostlakehiker

No, it doesn't. But consider social security. It's partly charity, partly Ponzi scheme.
Consider "school lunch program". A lot of middle class families are included. That makes it kind of a waste.

In program after program, money advertised as "for the poor" shows up in the pockets of the middle class, middlemen, or well connected government officials.

I'm not talking about how the programs may or may not be administered-I'm talking about the idea of the government providing for the poor being rejected by people who should look kindly on charity, given what their religion requires of them.

148

Mich-again Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:03:43pm

re: #143 Mr Pancakes

Let's not forget about Steve Avery... that was a great pitching trio.

Local kid. Went to HS with my wife.. Still plays around here in an over 30 fast pitch league with a buddy of mine. They don't let him pitch though. Has to play the OF. ha.

149

b_sharp Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:03:43pm

re: #139 brookly red

so how is the beaver pie?

Hot and juicy.

150

calochortus Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:06:11pm

re: #133 Mr Pancakes

I'm not religious, philosophical, nor do I deny or accept that there is a god.

I watch NFL football on Sundays and that's about as philosophical as I get...

I think your college class put way too much effort into it.

Undoubtedly true.
I define myself as an atheist because I see no evidence for the existence of a god or gods. If other people do, I'm fine with that.

151

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:07:41pm

re: #131 Mich-again

True. No one is ever going to call the principal to complain about the slanted curricullum.

I've had kids ask me in class if I believe in the Greek gods. That's a MUCH less scary question than some that come up about modern faiths.

152

calochortus Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:09:05pm

And having just taken the quiz, I'm happy to report I got 100% right, thus holding up the honor of atheists. Or something. Unfortunately, I bragged about it to my husband now he wants to take the quiz, so I will relinquish the computer to him.

'Night all.

153

Eclectic Infidel Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:10:09pm

re: #24 brookly red

I pray for you...

Pray for a delicious Canadian bacon (socialist pork) and pineapple pizza!

154

brookly red Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:10:12pm

re: #151 SanFranciscoZionist

I've had kids ask me in class if I believe in the Greek gods. That's a MUCH less scary question than some that come up about modern faiths.

Bacchus is real.

155

Mr Pancakes Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:10:27pm

re: #150 calochortus

Undoubtedly true.
I define myself as an atheist because I see no evidence for the existence of a god or gods. If other people do, I'm fine with that.

No problem, hence the difference between atheists and agnostics. I can't discount a "master plan"....... yes, maybe it was all happenstance. There are a lot of nuanced things in our world that give me pause.

156

Surabaya Stew Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:11:54pm

In my experience, religions with the most adherents (meaning Catholics and Muslims in particular) tend to be the least educated about their particulars and history. Of course there are exceptions, but nearly every Weekly (cathlic) church-goer in New York that i know has No idea what "Ex Cathedra" means or that The host is not just bread and wine. Similarly, when i travel to Indonesia, i end up explaining to muslims what Shias are and how Muhammad got started....

The level of ignorance all around is frightening.

157

brookly red Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:11:59pm

re: #153 eclectic infidel

Pray for a delicious Canadian bacon (socialist pork) and pineapple pizza!

this from a self proclaimed infidel?

158

Political Atheist Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:14:16pm

I happen to be a person of faith. And we have all heard the cliche "no atheists in a foxhole" meme. A sad corollary occurred to me recently. The popes apology. Made me reflect on that whole scandal and question Gods will. Absent any cliche.

159

Mr Pancakes Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:14:24pm

re: #157 brookly red

this from a self proclaimed infidel?

I like goofy California pizza...... but Canadian bacon (ham) and pineapple should never be placed upon one.

160

Eclectic Infidel Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:15:19pm

re: #157 brookly red

this from a self proclaimed infidel?

Yes. Self-proclaimed infidel, atheist, disbeliever, skeptic, though I prefer the term apatheist these days.

I was just teasing you about the pineapple/bacon pizza thing.

161

brookly red Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:16:58pm

re: #159 Mr Pancakes

re: #160 eclectic infidel

those that defile the host bread shall be reckoned with...

162

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:18:37pm

I am not disputing this poll per se, but I would point out two rather important things:

1. There is knowledge of something and then there is knowledge. It is one thing to know more of the basics than the typical rube. It is another to actually know something. This test is asking really basic questions that are about rudimentary facets of the different religions. They are not asking the detailed, interesting or hard stuff. In short, it is not hard to beat the average American about basic knowledge of any topic. The average American is woefully ignorant. Hell some 40% are creationists.

2. The most annoying thing for an educated religious person about dealing with an atheist is not at all that they are atheists. Atheists tend, in this nation, to be of the better educated set. They tend to read more than your typical American. They tend to be the people who can find other nations on a map. A good debate with a smart atheist keeps a theist like me honest. What is annoying is that many atheists think that the various things they have read about comparative religion - which they dismiss at the outset - constitutes knowing anything real (as in more detailed than the late night freshman dorm room debate level) about it.

It is that smugness that grates. This is not to say that religious folks can't be smug jerks too. Not the point. The point is that with something as vast and deep as say Bhuddist philosophy, or Judaism, you are simply not going to say anything particularly brilliant based only on a few interactions and the equivalent of survey course knowledge. Very smart people spend their whole lives studying these things and find new insights into them throughout their lives. Whaever that deep burning question is that you think is a total zinger, someone really smart thought of and answered centuries before you were born. Now whether or not you agree with the answer is another matter - but it is very foolish to assume that no answers exist.

163

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:19:17pm

re: #161 brookly red

re: #160 eclectic infidel

those that defile the host bread shall be reckoned with...

Remember the scandale about the pastor who gave communion to a dog?

164

brookly red Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:20:36pm

well the dough shall not rise but alas I must... later y'all & keep yer pies clean.

165

Eclectic Infidel Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:21:29pm

re: #160 eclectic infidel

Yes. Self-proclaimed infidel, atheist, disbeliever, skeptic, though I prefer the term apatheist these days.

And Knight of BAAWA, Defender of the IPU, and unofficial devotee of The Lady, ever-lovely Eris.

Thank you and goodnight.

166

Mr Pancakes Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:22:44pm

re: #164 brookly red

well the dough shall not rise but alas I must... later y'all & keep yer pies clean.

I never called a pizza a pie...... must be a New Yawk thing.

167

brookly red Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:23:15pm

re: #163 SanFranciscoZionist

Remember the scandale about the pastor who gave communion to a dog?

well did the dog truly believe? no worse than Bar Mitzvahing a dolphin I guess.

168

Eclectic Infidel Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:24:30pm

re: #166 Mr Pancakes

I never called a pizza a pie... must be a New Yawk thing.

I think it is. My ex grew up on Long Island (Plainsview), never once heard her call it pizza.

169

brookly red Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:25:39pm

re: #166 Mr Pancakes

re: #168 eclectic infidel

when the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie...

yeah like that.

170

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:26:46pm

re: #167 brookly red

well did the dog truly believe? no worse than Bar Mitzvahing a dolphin I guess.

1. I don't know what the dog believes, but I believe that dogs are without sin, and don't need Communion.

2. Someone had a bar mitzvah for a dolphin? Do I even want to know?

171

Mr Pancakes Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:28:15pm

re: #169 brookly red

re: #168 eclectic infidel

when the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie...

yeah like that.

Oh right...... that's amore...... I forgot

172

Political Atheist Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:29:15pm

Comedy Song Break---It's COLD!

173

Eclectic Infidel Tue, Sep 28, 2010 9:33:18pm

re: #171 Mr Pancakes

Oh right... that's amore... I forgot

Yesss. Love for the pork and pineapple. FEEL THE LOVE.

174

Claire Tue, Sep 28, 2010 10:03:30pm

29.75/32. Atheist. Yep.

175

Summer Seale Tue, Sep 28, 2010 10:35:47pm

I scored 100% and I am an Atheist. =)

176

ClaudeMonet Tue, Sep 28, 2010 11:39:52pm

re: #36 Killgore Trout

What would Mithra do?

Or Moloch? Or Baal?

177

ClaudeMonet Tue, Sep 28, 2010 11:52:40pm

re: #145 HappyWarrior

Forgot about Avery.
Maddux-Glavine-Smoltz-Avery. Quite a bunch.

And they won all of ONE World Series. So much for "pitching wins the short series".

Great Steve Avery story--

Avery lost his pitching "stuff" before the others, despite being younger. He bounced around quite a bit after leaving the Braves. One team he pitched for (briefly) was the Reds, and one teammate was his fellow ex-Brave, former closer Mark Wohlers. Wohlers could still throw hard, but had completely lost his control, just couldn't throw strikes.

One morning, after a day game and before a night game, Avery and Wohlers decide to go to the nearest casino (about a 20 minute drive from downtown Cincy). They go to a craps table, where my friend Mike (a baseball nut and craps dealer) recognizes them.

The dice eventually pass to Wohlers. Avery grabs the dice and refuses to let Wohlers roll--"Who knows where they'll go, and as hard as you throw, you could kill someone!"

Everyone at the table was laughing so hard, Wohlers included, that they had to shut the table down for 10 minutes.

178

ClaudeMonet Tue, Sep 28, 2010 11:58:52pm

Perhaps it's coincidence, but over at A.Word.A.Day, today's word is "excommunicate."

re: #170 SanFranciscoZionist

1. I don't know what the dog believes, but I believe that dogs are without sin, and don't need Communion.

2. Someone had a bar mitzvah for a dolphin? Do I even want to know?

1. Islam certainly disagrees on that point.

2. Sounds like something some NY nouveau riche who moved to Miami would do.

179

Summer Seale Wed, Sep 29, 2010 12:04:05am

re: #60 Mich-again

I suppose the most rational person would be someone who doesn't believe in God because there is no proof. At the opposite end of that scale are the ones who are absolutely sure that there is a God along with the ones who are absolutely sure there isn't one. Both of those groups of people believe in something even though there is no proof to back it up.

Actually, no.

When I "believe" that somebody is innocent until proven guilty, I'm not going on faith; I'm going on the fact that there is no proof that he's guilty until given proof.

Just as I "believe" that when I throw a stone into the air, it is going to land. Now, there may be some divine intervention or change in physics which suddenly makes it fly off into space, but the chances of that happening are exceedingly dubious - even though I may be fully aware that some scientists now believe that some parts of the universe may indeed have slightly different physical laws than our local part of the universe. But I still "believe" it will fall.

This isn't faith - it's based on science, rationality, and logical reasoning. And until something happens to change that, I am not being unreasonable in thinking that it will happen - even if I have no proof of it continuing to happen in the future at the current time.

It's the same with god(s). There is absolutely no rational, logical, or scientific proof that there is a god. I'm sorry, religious texts don't count as scientific proof, and neither do anecdotes. It is absolutely not unreasonable for me to be convinced, so far, that there is no god. It is such an extraordinary claim that it is completely useless to live my life as if there is one. If, suddenly, something extraordinary happens to prove otherwise, I am fully capable of rethinking my position. But even then, first, I will seek out more naturalistic and simple causes for such an effect - as we should do when presented with any other evidence for any other new phenomena.

To accept the existence of god, with no proof, well that is unreasonable. Even to accept the possibility of god with still no proof is unreasonable. It's as if to say that I accept the possibility of there being a bogeyman in my closet even though I have no proof and I have never seen it. I'm not going to live my life with such unreasonable prospects, and neither should anyone else.

I am convinced that a bogeyman isn't in my closet, just as I am convinced that there is no god. I'm very willing to be shown the contrary, but you'll have to do a lot of groundwork before I accept that final proof.

180

Amory Blaine Wed, Sep 29, 2010 2:51:33am

re: #83 NJDhockeyfan

Mich. teen kills 448-pound black bear with arrow

I know a dude who killed a buck with a club and a pocket knife. The screams the beast let out changed him.

181

Sol Berdinowitz Wed, Sep 29, 2010 2:51:51am

A bit of basic education helps: the Bible is not a science textbook, it is not a history book or a legal codex. It is a statement of faith, an explanation of why a person (or a whole people) believes in a certain God.

It contains historical references, but it is at best an historical source document. It can serve as the basis of a moral code, but it is not written or intended as to serve as a body of law.

And along with the parables of Christ, which are meant as stories, there are seveal books of the Bible (Rachel, Job, Noah) that were written as fictional accounts to illustrate points of disputed doctrine. To take these literally is completely alien to what they are.

182

Sol Berdinowitz Wed, Sep 29, 2010 4:39:14am

Stephen Fry on the topic:

[Link: www.dailymotion.com...]

183

Political Atheist Wed, Sep 29, 2010 6:51:58am

re: #162 LudwigVanQuixote

Excellent post.

184

Yashmak Wed, Sep 29, 2010 8:05:18am

re: #41 HappyWarrior

Only one I guessed on was the Jewish sabbath. I chose Saturday though I had the thought it was Friday. At least I think that was the only question I got wrong.

I missed the Great Awakening and the Sabbath. . .having not been sure, I guessed Saturday as well. Even as an agnostic (raised Protestant), I am actually feeling rather embarrassed about not knowing the day Sabbath starts. Still, got an 87%.

185

DaddyG Wed, Sep 29, 2010 9:06:11am

re: #79 calochortus

My language may have been a bit non-specific. Whether you call it charity or something else, I know people who consider themselves to be good Christians who don't think the government should be providing social services or a 'safety net'. I don't understand why not. Isn't looking after the less fortunate a fundamental value in Christianity (and most religions?) Does it matter how that aid or charity is delivered, just so long as it is available?

My issue is that government assistance comes with a very high price tag. It is more appropriate for far flung issues where private charities cannot cope with the scope of the issue. Some charities are even worse with overhead than the government so you have to be careful who you give through. Catholic Charities is wonderful for getting the goods to the needy. LDS Social Services even uses them as a distribution channel some places in the world. Ultimately personal charity (family, neighbors, community) is the most effective for personal and local needs. If you are sensitive to others needs you get exactly what is needed to the people who need it with a minimum of fussing and fuming.

On a deeper level it is better to give out of personal agency than to be compelled by the state. The former can lead to growth and stronger relationships while the latter can feel confiscatory and distant.

(Bonus: State security net and private charity are not an either or proposition. Render unto Caesar what is his and unto God what is His)

186

DaddyG Wed, Sep 29, 2010 9:17:50am

re: #158 Rightwingconspirator

I happen to be a person of faith. And we have all heard the cliche "no atheists in a foxhole" meme. A sad corollary occurred to me recently. The popes apology. Made me reflect on that whole scandal and question Gods will. Absent any cliche.

Trying to discern God's will from the actions of those who disobey it is pretty difficult. If adherants to most faiths actually practiced what they preach their faith and the reasons for it would be much more evident. The strongest and most accurate criticisms of religious groups are about them not following their own rules. The political religious fundamentalists would be better to concentrate on applying their doctrines to themselves and not worry about what others do. If you follow Jesus in the New Testament narratives He saves His harshest criticisms for those who profess to be leaders of the Church and extends a welcome to those who are not of His faith.

187

jayzee Wed, Sep 29, 2010 9:38:41am

I think the results state "Atheists and agnostics, Jews and Mormons are among the highest-scoring groups". These groups were almost tied with one another. The notion that atheists know more and therefore they are atheists is further discredited by what they did and did not know when compared to others-They knew less about Christianity. They knew less about world religions than Jews. What they did know more about was religion in public life.
To say that fraction of a point differential gained primarily due to a knowledge about laws regarding religion and not religious knowledge per se, makes them more likely to be atheists is a huge stretch.

BTW-I am Jewish and got 100%. Guess I shouldn't take off tomorrow for the holiday or go to shul.

188

Stephen T. Wed, Sep 29, 2010 10:06:11am

re: #74 Mich-again

Because teaching about religion is not proscribed by the First Amendment in public schools. Teachers are allowed to read from the Bible as literature, institute a comparative religions class, and teach the history and culture of any religion as part of a history class.

189

loubob57 Wed, Sep 29, 2010 12:06:20pm

I only got one answer wrong in the quiz. But that's because I watch a lot of historical documentaries. Like Xena: Warrior Princess. :)

190

watching you tiny alien kittens are Wed, Sep 29, 2010 12:12:08pm

re: #188 Scarecrow237

Because teaching about religion is not proscribed by the First Amendment in public schools. Teachers are allowed to read from the Bible as literature, institute a comparative religions class, and teach the history and culture of any religion as part of a history class.

Yeah, but the evangelicals are not satisfied with that, instead of advocating for more "comparative religion" classes that would teach the main tenets of most of the major religions and allow the students to think for themselves they want Creationism taught in science. That way the students are not exposed to all the other God "Myths" that might make them question why they believe in the religion they have been raised in by their parents.

Instead they would be presented with "Guided creation" as fact, as science, and with the backing of the government as reality. They do not want their children taught about any of the other thousand or so Gods that are currently worshiped much less the 4000 or so that have "died" in recorded history from a lack of followers.

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