Reza Aslan vs. Robert Spencer

OpinionOctober 2010 • Views: 11,144

Robert Spencer gets torn a new nether orifice by Reza Aslan in this segment of the CNN “town hall” meeting on Islam. Aslan quite correctly identifies Spencer’s group “Stop the Islamization of America” as a branch of the European hate franchise “Stop the Islamisation of Europe,” and points out that Spencer is working hard to import European-style ethic and religious hatred to the US.

(I have to quibble with one of Aslan’s points, though; he exaggerates slightly by describing SIOE as a “neo-Nazi” group. The group itself isn’t strictly a neo-Nazi group, although they do incorporate and make alliances with other groups that do have Nazi roots.)

Watch as Robert Spencer actually accuses an imam in the audience of vandalizing his own mosque, then tries to weasel out of it by saying, “Maybe you did, maybe you didn’t…”

Youtube Video

SPENCER: what happened to your mosque is a terrible thing. Nobody should go around vandalizing anything. But there’s also another thing, and you talk about why are Americans suspicious of these good people? Well, there’s also documented evidence, and I can get it to you, that the Council on American-Islamic Relations and other groups have and mosques included, have actually fabricated hate crimes against Muslims that are later discovered that they did it themselves.

IMAM: No, no, no - come on.

SPENCER: I’m not saying that yours were fabricated. What is - maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t. its why people are suspicious and that kind of thing has to addressed

AMANPOUR: Reza Aslan, you’ve heard - you’ve heard the -

REZA ASLAN, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, DAILY BEAST: Robert Spencer is quite famous for spewing nonsense, and this is - this is more nonsense that every single -media matters— every single non-partisan media organization has said, quite clearly, every word that came out of Robert Spencer’s mouth - the reason that he’s the only one who said this is that he’s the only one who actually has this information.

(crosstalk)

SPENCER: It’s easy to attack me personally — its harder to deal with the facts.

AMANPOUR: Reza, what did he say that was inaccurate?

ASLAN: I’m going to go ahead and trust the FBI instead of Robert Spencer when it comes to the rise in Muslim hate crimes. But that’s not even the issue here. If you go around saying that 80 percent of mosques are preaching hatred and violence, then why are you surprised that people would actually respond with fear and with violence against Muslims?

SPENCER: Well, actually, I didn’t say that.

ASLAN: And if you’re spreading this kind of ideology, don’t pretend that you don’t have a role in the consequences of the things that you say.

SPENCER: — when in reality, these were three separate, independent studies that came to this figure of 80 percent. They all say that in 1998

ASLAN: Those studies have already been bunked by everybody.

(CROSSTALK)

ASLAN: No one is taking you seriously.

Jump to bottom

104 comments

Taqyia2Me Mon, Oct 4, 2010 10:36:55am

That 15 minutes of fame doesn't pertain to everybody, apparently.

Taqyia2Me Mon, Oct 4, 2010 10:37:50am

re: #1 Taqyia2Me

In Spencer's case...

Mark Pennington Mon, Oct 4, 2010 10:41:38am

A lot of Muslims were upset over this town hall...calling it a circus. In fact, they found it tremendously offensive.

Obdicut Mon, Oct 4, 2010 10:42:00am

I love how he tries to distance himself from his own views.

Gus Mon, Oct 4, 2010 10:42:17am

I watched this last night. As far as debate styles are concerned Robert Spencer was frequently grinning, smiling, laughing, giggling and generally making himself look like a childish fool for the better part of this program. In short, he beclowned himself.

Randall Gross Mon, Oct 4, 2010 10:43:47am

What I've noticed is that the far right groups do make up a lot of the body of demonstrators when SIOE holds Demos in Europe. That's why you see them advertised in places like the Stormfront Europe forums, NPD forums, etc. At some of the past demos some of these "activists" get bussed in from all over Europe.

Kronocide Mon, Oct 4, 2010 10:47:04am

Reza Aslan was huge, Spencer looked ridiculous, Bauer was a moran.

The 9/11 mom in the black shirt (Donna Marsh O'Connor) was very powerful as well, especially being a non-pundit.

Kragar Mon, Oct 4, 2010 10:50:30am

Geert Wilder's trial for Hate Speach begins today

Dutch anti-Islam politician Geert Wilders went on trial Monday for alleged hate speech, even as his popularity and influence in the Netherlands are near all time highs.

Prosecutors say Wilders incited hatred against Muslims with remarks comparing Islam to Naziism and by calling for a ban on the Quran. Wilders argues he has a right to freedom of speech and his remarks were within the bounds of the law.

If convicted, he faces up to a year in prison. He could keep his seat in parliament.

On his Twitter account, Wilders said the start of his trial was a "terrible day."

"The freedom of expression of at least 1.5 million people is standing trial together with me," he wrote, referring to the voters that made his Freedom Party the third-largest in national elections in June.

But his lawyer, Bram Moszkowicz, told presiding judge Jan Moors at the start of the trial that Wilders would not answer questions during the trial.

"My client will, at my advice, exercise his right to silence today, tomorrow and the other days," Moszkowicz said. Moors then adjourned the case to consider a request from Wilders to explain his decision not to speak.

wrenchwench Mon, Oct 4, 2010 10:53:42am

re: #3 beekiller

A lot of Muslims were upset over this town hall...calling it a circus. In fact, they found it tremendously offensive.

The whole thing was offensive? Or parts of it?

Was it wrong to give a forum to the nuts, even if it revealed the nuttiness?

What, me worry? Mon, Oct 4, 2010 10:54:30am

re: #3 beekiller

A lot of Muslims were upset over this town hall...calling it a circus. In fact, they found it tremendously offensive.

Really? Did you read that? I don't agree at all. I mean, Graham and Spencer are raging bigots for sure, but the show, the audience especially, was very pro-Mosque. You heard maybe 3 people clapping for Spencer or Graham and many, many more for the others.

Who they picked to represent Muslims was interesting. All women, for one. And such great women like Azar Nafisi and Daisy Khan. The women whose daughter died in 9/11 was also a terrific speaker.

I say it was a big win for our side.

Kragar Mon, Oct 4, 2010 10:55:48am

A little more info on the Geert trial;

Speaking at his trial yesterday, Mr Wilders said: "I am sitting here as a suspect because I have spoken nothing but the truth. I have said what I have said and I will not take one word back."

Throwing down an open challenge to the court, Mr Wilders, 47, attacked the three judges sitting in the Amsterdam court for prosecuting him for "stating my opinion in the context of public debate".

"I can assure you, I will continue proclaiming it," he said.

However, proceedings were suspended for 24 hours, after Mr Wilders demanded that the court's presiding judge be replaced.

After an opening statement by Mr Wilders, Bram Moszkowicz, his lawyer told the court that the defendant would exercise his right to silence and would not answer questions during the trial.

Jan Moors, the presiding judge then noted that Mr Wilders has been accused of being "good in taking a stand and then avoiding a discussion" of the issue. "By remaining silent, it seems you're doing that today as well," he said.

Attacking "scandalous" remarks, Mr Wilders and his lawyers asked for the court to be dissolved. "With this presiding judge and such a panel of judges, a fair trial isn't possible anymore," he said.

What, me worry? Mon, Oct 4, 2010 10:56:32am

I hate to post and run but something's come up. Be back soon.

Gus Mon, Oct 4, 2010 10:56:39am

At one point Gadiel accuses Khan of taqiyya.

GADIEL: We're talking about right now a very small number of people in this country. And what we are afraid of, is that as the number grows, the violence will grow, as we have seen in Holland, and as we see in Germany, and as we see in England. Do we have a reason to be afraid of Muslims right now? No, the number's not very great. But your mosques, moderate, wherever they are, have been infiltrated and have a history of being infiltrated by radicals. And you can't deny it. And you may, for all I know, not be a moderate you pretend to be, because you may be engaging in takia and be engaging in lying for the purpose of furthering your religion.

(LAUGHTER)

GADIEL: Why should I believe you?

KHAN: I'm shocked at the inference that I am not -- my intention is not good. Have you looked in my heart? Have you --

GADIEL: No. No, I don't. You're right. You're right.

KHAN: Have you cut my chest and looked in my heart to see what my intention is? I think it's wrong for you to say that somebody's engaged in takia. You don't even know what the word takia is.

GADIEL: It means lying for the purpose of furthering your religion.

KHAN: Why would I do that?

GADEIL: Lying to people who are non-believers. .

KHAN: Why would I do that?

GADIEL: Why? Be it said -- are you not instructed to do that?

KHAN: No! Absolutely not!

Mark Pennington Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:10:10am

re: #9 wrenchwench

The whole thing was offensive? Or parts of it?

Was it wrong to give a forum to the nuts, even if it revealed the nuttiness?

The ones I know via twitter were freaking out over the title of it and I guess its stunning to them that we even have to have such a townhall.

Adil Zeshan Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:02:22pm

Spencer is characteristic is his usage and style of juvenile argumentation.

But I am particularly disappointed by Ayaan's remarks to Daisy Khan, remarks that were grossly unfair. Her irrational attack of Khan as a self-styled victim is embarrassingly ill-informed and based on absolutely no evidence. It is disappointing because it seems to be increasingly characteristic of Ayaan's behaviour. A couple of years ago, via a reason magazine interview, she called for Muslim schools in the US to be closed down by force of law. If this continues, Ayaan will also end up on the wrong side of history too.

richard12 Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:35:20pm

Charles, you can ask if people should be afraid of Islam until you're blue in the face. The fact of the matter is that many people are, and if you call them ignorant, useful idiots, or any other terms you're not doing yourself any justice. People see Islam attacking them and their lives, its natural their going to be scared. You can say that its not Islam, its only a handful of Muslims, you can say that its only the fanatics, you can say that they don't represent Islam. But the fact of the matter is their are arguments for both sides of each of those claims, some justified, some not.

The problem in America and with the Jon Stewart Approach is that they don't address the real and valid fears that people have. They only turn people off because their condescending and know it all. I like you and I like Jon, but its time the both of you start addressing peoples fears and not belittling them or trying to convince them in vein that when a terrorist yells Allah Akbar and kills innocent civilians it really has nothing to do with Islam.

wrenchwench Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:41:06pm

re: #16 richard12

People see Islam attacking them and their lives, its natural their going to be scared. You can say that its not Islam, its only a handful of Muslims, you can say that its only the fanatics, you can say that they don't represent Islam. But the fact of the matter is their are arguments for both sides of each of those claims, some justified, some not.

Bullshit. If there is an attack on some people by some Muslims, there is no justified argument that all Muslims are responsible.

Your line of "reasoning" leads to bad "logic", some of which is represented in the video above.

richard12 Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:49:45pm

re: #17 wrenchwench

And that's exactly the attitude I am talking of. bullshit your bullshit. I never blamed all Muslims. That's something you insinuated into the conversation as most people do. You deny human nature. We profile, its part of our defense mechanism, whether you like it or not.

And when attacks are being directed against civilians in dozens of countries around the world and the vast majority of them are in the name of Allah, you might want to ignore that fact. Others can't get it out of their minds. It doesn't make them bigoted or racist, it makes them human.

You want to talk about bad logic? How about the moral relativity that puts suicide bombers that purposely targets innocent people on par with soldiers of sovereign nations trying to prevent those suicide bombers from committing mass murder. That's bad logic, and at the same time, that's becoming the politically correct approach, morally relativising all the different sides. Ignoring circumstance and intent.

When the President of the United States strips out a most central common denominator of terrorist attacks that have taken place on US soil, or were foiled before they could be conducted, that's bad logic. And as much as you want to deny, and while American may not necessarily be at war with Islam, Islam, is at war, with the west. And if you don't want to believe it that's your prerogative. But if simultaneous attacks take place in Berlin, London and Paris this week, the rest of the world will most likely disagree with you.

So why don't you come off your high horse know it all attitude and accept that no matter how much you want to deny it, no matter that now all Muslims support terror, most major attacks on the West (not to mention in the East too), are launched in the name of Islam.

wrenchwench Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:56:10pm

re: #18 richard12

I never blamed all Muslims.

Your statement was,

You can say that its not Islam, its only a handful of Muslims, you can say that its only the fanatics, you can say that they don't represent Islam. But the fact of the matter is their [sic] are arguments for both sides of each of those claims, some justified, some not.

You say there is an argument on the side of the claim that some attackers represent Islam, and the argument may be justified or not. In other words, there is a justified argument that attackers represent all of Islam. If that's not what you meant, clarify it.

wrenchwench Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:05:20pm

re: #18 richard12

So why don't you come off your high horse know it all attitude and accept that no matter how much you want to deny it, no matter that now all Muslims support terror, most major attacks on the West (not to mention in the East too), are launched in the name of Islam.

Is that a typo? Is it supposed to say "not"?

Obdicut Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:06:31pm

re: #20 wrenchwench

Is that a typo? Is it supposed to say "not"?

A Freudian typo.

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:10:42pm

re: #16 richard12

Charles, you can ask if people should be afraid of Islam until you're blue in the face. The fact of the matter is that many people are, and if you call them ignorant, useful idiots, or any other terms you're not doing yourself any justice. People see Islam attacking them and their lives, its natural their going to be scared. You can say that its not Islam, its only a handful of Muslims, you can say that its only the fanatics, you can say that they don't represent Islam. But the fact of the matter is their are arguments for both sides of each of those claims, some justified, some not.

The problem in America and with the Jon Stewart Approach is that they don't address the real and valid fears that people have. They only turn people off because their condescending and know it all. I like you and I like Jon, but its time the both of you start addressing peoples fears and not belittling them or trying to convince them in vein that when a terrorist yells Allah Akbar and kills innocent civilians it really has nothing to do with Islam.

We need to address the "valid and very real" fears

about women who think every black man is going to rape them and men who think black people just sit around all day collecting welfare and driving cadillacs because that's what Saint Jesus Ronald Reagan said

We need to address the "valid and very real" fears

about gay people poisoning your Christian schoolchildren with the gay and teaching them how to use dildos anally

and of course we need to address the "valid and very real" fears of Sharia taking over and that every mosque is a terrorist training ground

You're probably not sticking around ;-) I'll just say this: these people with their "valid fears" need to be defeated, not addressed. These are very VERY stupid people who will not listen to reason, they're part of their tribe, their personalities will not allow them to accept any nuance, or really any discourse at all on these issues

richard12 Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:21:47pm

re: #20 wrenchwench

I already told you that I never blamed all Muslims. You can attempt to extract from my words whatever you want. Though living in a country where only Muslims strap bombs to their bodies and get on busses and try to kill me and my children, I can tell you that I am very prone to SUSPECTING muslims, while not suspecting Christians, Jews, Buddists, Bahai or Satanists. (Hint: I live in Israel. Yes, I'm sure that will cause you to write me off as a racist bigot).

Can I tell every person that is a Muslim? No. Do I think that every Muslim is a terrorist? No. But I can tell a suspicious person. And I do that based on a number of factors. I can also tell you that when there is a warning of an imminent terrorist attack, I am even more suspcious of anybody speaking arabic. Does that make me a racist or a bigot? Or just a person that is being forced to act like one in an effort to not get blown to a million pieces? Does that mean that I think all Arabic speakers are terrorists? No.

I know this is all logic that is foreign to you, but once your friend or wife or child or co-worker has been killed in a terrorist attack, you just might start to make this same judgements in your own head. I hope you never get to that point. Its an awful thing to have to identify your daughter at the morgue by her eyeball, because that's the only part of her entact enough to identify.

Until then, I'm sure you'll continue to accuse anybody that dares to voice their concern of Islamic terror (and yes, that is indeed what it is when muslims execute terror attacks in the name of Islam and Allah, even if not all Muslims agree with it), of racism and bigotry.

richard12 Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:22:30pm

re: #22 WindUpBird

Are you suggesting that Black men rape in the name of black people?

Charles Johnson Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:23:14pm

Image: facepalm.jpg

Obdicut Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:24:17pm

re: #23 richard12

. (Hint: I live in Israel. Yes, I'm sure that will cause you to write me off as a racist bigot).

You realize that's an accusation of bigotry in and of itself, right?

richard12 Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:27:20pm

re: #25 Charles

Sorry Charles, but I think I have a valid argument. And if you want people to engage you can't write them off because their beliefs don't suit the grasp of the world you've fought so hard to build. I know its hard. I was an Israeli left wing liberal. I believe I'm still reasonable as a person and not a bigot or racist, even if I believe that everyone is to a degree, including myself (yes I know I just contradicted myself).

No doubt, its a horrible situation. Just like being forced to feel like racist by worrying that the Arab man in the front of the bus is a terrorist, even if deep down inside you do suspect he's most likely a nice guy, and feel bad for him. But what else are you supposed to do?

richard12 Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:28:02pm

re: #26 Obdicut

Only for those people who try to be clever instead of straight forward and honest.

wrenchwench Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:29:56pm

re: #23 richard12

(Hint: I live in Israel. Yes, I'm sure that will cause you to write me off as a racist bigot).

Actually, I would expect less bigotry against Muslims from a resident of Israel than I would from my fellow US residents, because you have more exposure to Muslims, and first hand knowledge that they are not all terrorists, whereas Americans are often whipped into a state of fear because they have never met a Muslim and are vulnerable to propagandizers who claim expertise in the matter.

Sure, you told me you don't blame all Muslims. You also wrote something that makes it look like you do, and makes it look like you think people who do blame all Muslims are to be catered to.

Mark Pennington Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:35:20pm

Image: 2ai3atc.jpg

Obdicut Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:36:13pm

re: #28 richard12

Only for those people who try to be clever instead of straight forward and honest.

Not really. You accused someone of automatically thinking you're a bigot because you're Israeli. That statement is bigoted of you-- you're charging that she thinks of all Israeli's as bigoted.

It's pretty simple, dude.

wrenchwench Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:38:32pm

re: #15 Adil

If this continues, Ayaan will also end up on the wrong side of history too.

I think that's been a concern since she landed at the American Enterprise Institute.

richard12 Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:41:56pm

re: #29 wrenchwench

You think Americans don't have first hand knowledge with Muslims? I was born and raised in Chicago and I have plenty of first hand knowledge before I ever made it to Israel, so i believe you're mistaken there.

And there you go with the bigotry again, seems like its the pot calling the kettle black. You just don't get it, and probably never will.

Obdicut Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:43:45pm

re: #33 richard12

Except she didn't call you a bigot.

You were the first one to start slinging that around.

richard12 Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:44:59pm

I have on no less than 4 occasions in the last 8 years gotten off of buses because I suspected that someone that got on the bus might have potentially been a suicide bomber. Its a very pleasant experience, both for myself, and I'm sure the person I suspected. Because if I suspected it, chances are everybody in the bus suspected it. You can call that bigotry if you want, in Israel its a matter of survival.

And by the way, not all those I suspected of being a terrorist were Arab or Muslim. I once suspected I was face to face with a suicide bomber. If you're interested in reading the story you can see it here: [Link: anothermudpit.blogspot.com...]

richard12 Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:45:31pm

re: #31 Obdicut

Whatever, Dude.

Obdicut Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:46:06pm

re: #36 richard12

Whatever, Dude.

Why did you assume that WrenchWench was bigoted against Israelis?

richard12 Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:46:08pm

re: #35 richard12

I meant unpleasant, of course.

wrenchwench Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:46:59pm

re: #33 richard12

You think Americans don't have first hand knowledge with Muslims? I was born and raised in Chicago and I have plenty of first hand knowledge before I ever made it to Israel, so i believe you're mistaken there.

And there you go with the bigotry again, seems like its the pot calling the kettle black. You just don't get it, and probably never will.

Would you admit that an Israeli is more likely to have met a Muslim than is a US resident?

richard12 Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:50:59pm

re: #37 Obdicut

If you really need to ask a question its pretty sad. But I'll answer it none the less. In these types of forums people typically latch onto whatever information they have then use it against the person they are arguing with. In my case, we are talking about wrench's bigotry against anybody that dares to voice some type of fear of Islam because of Islamic terror, then directly personalize it and accuse that person of being racist against all Muslims. And seeing how I then noted that I live in Israel, it is only a matter of course to think that he will then use this information to try to deligitimize what I say, pass it off as not pertinent, or the words of a bigot (which he in fact did, whether or not it was because I live in Israel is besides the point).

Obdicut Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:52:14pm

re: #40 richard12

That was barely English, and it wasn't an answer.

Can you try explaining a rational reason why you assumed Wrenchwench was bigoted against Israelis?

richard12 Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:52:27pm

re: #39 wrenchwench
I guess it depends on where. I come from a large Metropolitan area of the US. I've known Muslims all my life (even if only a handful). On the other hand, someone in the rural back alleys of Kentucky might not have.

richard12 Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:53:56pm

re: #41 Obdicut

Barely English? Nice try. I was born and raised in the US and have worked for 10 years as a writer. If you couldn't understand what I wrote then I'm sorry, I'm not going to rewrite it.

Obdicut Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:54:54pm

re: #43 richard12

I understood it just fine. It wasn't a rational reason: it basically said you called Wrenchwench a bigot because you assumed she was going to act like a bigot.

That isn't a rational reason.

Can you provide a rational reason why you assumed Wrenchwench was bigoted against Israelis?

richard12 Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:56:08pm

re: #30 beekiller

Why don't you get it tattooed on your arm Bees. Gotta love when good ole' folk who are so certain that they are right start throwing around accusations against others.

richard12 Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:01:20pm

re: #44 Obdicut

As I mentioned, its a tactic often used in these forums as a strategy of argument (Wrench trying to deligitimize my argument with whatever means at his disposal). For anybody that posts regularly in these forums its perfectly rational. An accusation (like accusing someone of being a Bigot which is what Wrench did to me) is a tool, a means to try and dismiss any merit in what I say (he's a bigot so what he says isn't valid). Its a pretty poor one at that. If you don't get it there's nothing more I can say.

wrenchwench Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:06:14pm

re: #42 richard12

I guess it depends on where. I come from a large Metropolitan area of the US. I've known Muslims all my life (even if only a handful). On the other hand, someone in the rural back alleys of Kentucky might not have.

So, to generalize, any random Israeli is more likely to have met a Muslim than any random US citizen.

Knowledge is the antidote to bigotry, in my opinion. I read your account of the scary bus ride. The policeman had knowledge that you didn't have, which explained his lack of alarm.

To go back to your initial comment on this thread, you said,

People see Islam attacking them and their lives, its natural their going to be scared.

You see attacks in Israel, and it is natural that you are scared that there will be another one, possibly even on the bus you ride. I'm not blind to that. Yet, you stay in Israel, and continue to take the bus. You have made a calculated choice. You are not in a constant state of panic, or you wouldn't be able to function. You are not scared of every Muslim you see, but you do take note of one that looks nervous, and is dressed oddly for the season. Then you worry that someone will think you are a bigot. I don't think you are a bigot for taking note of a nervous, odd person on a bus. I think you might be a bigot enabler because you make excuses for the people in the video who are bigots. You say their fear is justified, when they are safer than you are, yet more afraid. Why?

wrenchwench Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:08:08pm

re: #46 richard12

As I mentioned, its a tactic often used in these forums as a strategy of argument (Wrench trying to deligitimize my argument with whatever means at his disposal). For anybody that posts regularly in these forums its perfectly rational. An accusation (like accusing someone of being a Bigot which is what Wrench did to me) is a tool, a means to try and dismiss any merit in what I say (he's a bigot so what he says isn't valid). Its a pretty poor one at that. If you don't get it there's nothing more I can say.

The closest I came to calling you a bigot is in the comment just above this one. If you think I called you a bigot before, you are mistaken.

What, me worry? Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:18:35pm

re: #35 richard12

I have on no less than 4 occasions in the last 8 years gotten off of buses because I suspected that someone that got on the bus might have potentially been a suicide bomber. Its a very pleasant experience, both for myself, and I'm sure the person I suspected. Because if I suspected it, chances are everybody in the bus suspected it. You can call that bigotry if you want, in Israel its a matter of survival.

And by the way, not all those I suspected of being a terrorist were Arab or Muslim. I once suspected I was face to face with a suicide bomber. If you're interested in reading the story you can see it here: [Link: anothermudpit.blogspot.com...]

Sorry to butt in.

I just wanted to say that the arguments we're making here in the States are different than those you and other Israelis would make or even Africans or many Europeans. And I have family in Israel.

The U.S. doesn't have the same issues that you do. War isn't here. We were attacked by outsiders/Saudis, not U.S. Muslims. It makes a huge difference.

And IIRC, the FBI agent in this segment said there have been 400 terrorist incidents since 9/11, 150 of which have been violent. That figure is very low considering the number of violent crimes across the board in the U.S. done by others. He also said the idea that the incidents are rising among Muslim specific crime just doesn't play out on paper.

So really, what you have to deal with in Israel is much different. That's why I fully support American Muslims. If you don't trust any Muslim, well our argument is pretty much over. But if there are moderate Muslims, I believe there are HERE, maybe not where you are, and if we wish the religion to reform to a place where there is no violence, then we have to support those who have not committed violence.

Who do you think is next after they stop Muslims from building mosques?

richard12 Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:19:29pm

re: #48 wrenchwench

I apologize wrench, you are correct, you didn't call me a bigot. Orbicut did indirectly and I attributed it to you. Please accept my apologies for my rashness and accusatory tone. I was wrong.

richard12 Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:23:50pm

re: #49 marjoriemoon

Umm, Fort Hood? The recent bombing attempt in Time Square? Those weren't Americans? And yet again, I never said that all Muslims were bad or terrorists. But that doesn't mean you can strip out the single common denominator from these attacks, Islam and a hatred of the West and America.

And again, as a result, you shouldn't be surprised when people feel threatened by Islam. I understand you want to think that American Muslims are different, and in a general sense I feel you are correct. Because America, as opposed to Germany, France or other locations, properly integrate their immigrants. Therefore there is much less resentment and much more of a reason to be a part of society. But this still doesn't change the fact that attacks around the world and in America are being launched in the name of Islam.

wrenchwench Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:27:32pm

re: #50 richard12

I apologize wrench, you are correct, you didn't call me a bigot. Orbicut did indirectly and I attributed it to you. Please accept my apologies for my rashness and accusatory tone. I was wrong.

Perhaps, now that you have that insight, you can re-read my comments, allowing this time for my sincerity. I know you are sincere, I just think it's a mistake to cater to those who purposely whip up fear and hatred for political reasons. Please don't help 'em.

The fact that there are attacks by people who claim their religion as motivation is no reason to blame that religion. It is a mistake, and it does not help in fighting those who are terrorists. It makes that fight more difficult.

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:28:08pm

re: #43 richard12

Barely English? Nice try. I was born and raised in the US and have worked for 10 years as a writer. If you couldn't understand what I wrote then I'm sorry, I'm not going to rewrite it.

We understood it, it's just shitty grammar and your thoughts were disorganized :)

if you make a living as a writer, wow

richard12 Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:29:37pm

re: #47 wrenchwench

While I know there is a lot of fear mongering out there. I don't think most Americans are afraid of all Muslims. They work with muslims, and Jews, and christians and everything else. But again, that doesn't remove the fear of being attacked.

For all my knowledge and familiarity, I still have fear if I gauge a situation as being dangerous. I'm probably better trained to identify that danger, therefore I can calm myself of that fear more easily than those that aren't. And Americans aren't trained to identify it.

And nobody is demanding they stop anybody from building mosques, that's another falsehood. They are asking to move the mother of all Muslim community centers from a location where 6,000 people died in an attack launched in the name of Islam.

richard12 Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:30:37pm

re: #53 WindUpBird
How about it, quite a shocker eh. But poking fun at my spelling and grammar in a shitty little message board doesn't invalidate my arguments, as much as you wish it would.

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:34:09pm

re: #51 richard12

Umm, Fort Hood? The recent bombing attempt in Time Square? Those weren't Americans? And yet again, I never said that all Muslims were bad or terrorists. But that doesn't mean you can strip out the single common denominator from these attacks, Islam and a hatred of the West and America.

And again, as a result, you shouldn't be surprised when people feel threatened by Islam. I understand you want to think that American Muslims are different, and in a general sense I feel you are correct. Because America, as opposed to Germany, France or other locations, properly integrate their immigrants. Therefore there is much less resentment and much more of a reason to be a part of society. But this still doesn't change the fact that attacks around the world and in America are being launched in the name of Islam.

I'm wai more threatened by Christian Right Wingers in America than I ever will eb by Islam, or Muslims, or anything

Islam isn't in power in the US.

Islam isn't on school boards forcing teachers I like out of their jobs.

Islam isn't pulling knives on my friends because they're fucking fags who should die

islam isn't character assassinating gay college presidents while being employed as an assistant District Attorney of Michigan

Islam isn't telling Americans that gay people are teaching their kids how to anally fist in jr. high school.

So forgive me if I don't care about the coming apocalyptic wring-our-hands terror of Islam in America, I got bigger problems, jack. Terrorist attacks are one thing, elected officials who wield legitimate power in their districts who

ASSUME I AM A RAPIST AND TELL THEIR CONSTITUENTS LIKEWISE

are a bit more significant to me

Funny, I know.

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:34:40pm

re: #55 richard12

How about it, quite a shocker eh. But poking fun at my spelling and grammar in a shitty little message board doesn't invalidate my arguments, as much as you wish it would.

No, you invalidated your own arguments, don't need any help from me

richard12 Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:36:02pm

re: #52 wrenchwench

I appreciate your integrity and patience. And I understand where you're coming from. Though I believe that there is something inherent in Islam and its writings, NOT IN MUSLIMS, that somehow can be interpreted by so many of their follows to justify violence and the murdering of innocents in the name of their cause, whether that be Jihad or Allah. And this has been shown through the endless attacks we see on a daily basis, whether in Iraq, Afghanistan, London, Israel or New York.

The son of a Hamas founder that saved Israeli lives recently said, its not the Muslim people, its their god: [Link: www.jpost.com...]

You might not agree with it, but its something to chew on.

richard12 Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:36:55pm

re: #57 WindUpBird

That's always my favorite argument. The non-existent one. Thanks for trying.

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:37:28pm

re: #54 richard12

While I know there is a lot of fear mongering out there. I don't think most Americans are afraid of all Muslims. They work with muslims, and Jews, and christians and everything else. But again, that doesn't remove the fear of being attacked.

For all my knowledge and familiarity, I still have fear if I gauge a situation as being dangerous. I'm probably better trained to identify that danger, therefore I can calm myself of that fear more easily than those that aren't. And Americans aren't trained to identify it.

And nobody is demanding they stop anybody from building mosques, that's another falsehood. They are asking to move the mother of all Muslim community centers from a location where 6,000 people died in an attack launched in the name of Islam.

six thousand people? What?

Wow, you're just not very good at this

also, this little bon mot below is really creepy and condescending and sorta makes me not want to talk to you any more

I'm probably better trained to identify that danger, therefore I can calm myself of that fear more easily than those that aren't. And Americans aren't trained to identify it.

tell us all about it, tell us how much more informed you are, lol

wrenchwench Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:38:19pm

re: #54 richard12

While I know there is a lot of fear mongering out there. I don't think most Americans are afraid of all Muslims. They work with muslims, and Jews, and christians and everything else. But again, that doesn't remove the fear of being attacked.

For all my knowledge and familiarity, I still have fear if I gauge a situation as being dangerous. I'm probably better trained to identify that danger, therefore I can calm myself of that fear more easily than those that aren't. And Americans aren't trained to identify it.

So far so good. You gauge situations, you don't assume all Muslims want to attack you.

And nobody is demanding they stop anybody from building mosques, that's another falsehood. They are asking to move the mother of all Muslim community centers from a location where 6,000 people died in an attack launched in the name of Islam.

Get a grip. It was fewer than 3,000 who died at the World Trade Center, not that that's a lot better. "Mother of all Muslim community centers" is almost as bad as "triumphal Mosque," which is the language of fear-mongers. And asking Imam Rauf to move it because some people fear Muslims is unAmerican bigotry. If that's the position you hold, I will now call you a bigot.

richard12 Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:38:38pm

re: #56 WindUpBird

Give it time, they just might be. They are in the UK, and across the European mainland. You might be afraid of fanatic right-wing christians, and believe me, I can understand that too. But they don't circumcize their daughters or kill them for honor. Force them to live a life of violence or servitude. And maybe Muslims don't in the US for the most part. But in pretty much every Muslim country they do.

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:40:24pm

IT'S OVER SIX

THOOOUUUSSAAAANNNDDD

Image: 38210_k3clh4chsr_l.jpg

Seriously, I can't tolerate fanatics

Especially fanatics who wave around their self-righteousness dick about Islam while they fail at basic facts

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:40:34pm

re: #62 richard12

Give it time, they just might be. They are in the UK, and across the European mainland. You might be afraid of fanatic right-wing christians, and believe me, I can understand that too. But they don't circumcize their daughters or kill them for honor. Force them to live a life of violence or servitude. And maybe Muslims don't in the US for the most part. But in pretty much every Muslim country they do.

hahaha fuck off

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:40:57pm

re: #61 wrenchwench

This guy's a fanatic, I'm done with his crazy bullshit

richard12 Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:41:36pm

re: #60 WindUpBird

That's right WindUpBird, I am better trained to identify people that might be a suicide bomber than the average American. Big deal, so I wrote 6,000 instead of 3,000 people. Maybe because its 12:00 at night where I am and I've already been working for 16 hours, but no matter.

Arrogant know nothing people like yourself who are self righteous and only search to invalidate other's feelings and deny other's knowledge and experience have no part in regular dialog. you'd be better off talking to yourself in the mirror, because you're the only person you'll listen to.

richard12 Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:42:28pm

re: #64 WindUpBird

Wow, now we're really seeing your debate skills, good show. Now how can I beat Fuck Off? I guess I won't even try. You win hands down, congratulations.

richard12 Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:43:00pm

re: #65 WindUpBird

That's right, I'm a bible bashing fanatic that hates the world. You've got me figured out, good job!

richard12 Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:44:14pm

re: #61 wrenchwench

Ummm, its not the mother of all Muslim community centers in Manhattan? (notice I didn't even call it a Mosque).

wrenchwench Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:45:04pm

re: #58 richard12

I appreciate your integrity and patience. And I understand where you're coming from. Though I believe that there is something inherent in Islam and its writings, NOT IN MUSLIMS, that somehow can be interpreted by so many of their follows to justify violence and the murdering of innocents in the name of their cause, whether that be Jihad or Allah. And this has been shown through the endless attacks we see on a daily basis, whether in Iraq, Afghanistan, London, Israel or New York.

The son of a Hamas founder that saved Israeli lives recently said, its not the Muslim people, its their god: [Link: www.jpost.com...]

You might not agree with it, but its something to chew on.

I don't take Mosab Yousef's opinion of Islam as definitive. Nor yours, for that matter. Any religion can be used to justify anything. I'm an atheist, which can also be used to justify anything. You are wrong to judge people by their religion alone, especially if it is not the same as your religion. And you are wrong to want to make Rauf move Park51 because of what some people think about Islam.

wrenchwench Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:46:32pm

re: #69 richard12

Ummm, its not the mother of all Muslim community centers in Manhattan? (notice I didn't even call it a Mosque).

As a writer, I'm sure you are aware that people choose phrases for their echoes to previous uses. Now tell me when and where the phrase "mother of all..." came into popular use.

wrenchwench Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:50:54pm

re: #65 WindUpBird

This guy's a fanatic, I'm done with his crazy bullshit

I'll never get him and you to see eye-to-eye, but maybe I can get him to see why

"its time the both of you start addressing peoples fears and not belittling them or trying to convince them in vein [sic] that when a terrorist yells Allah Akbar and kills innocent civilians it really has nothing to do with Islam."

reads like bigotry.

bratwurst Mon, Oct 4, 2010 3:37:10pm

Looks like the school of "I can't possibly be racist or a bigot if I am just telling the truth!" is alive and well.

Obdicut Mon, Oct 4, 2010 3:57:26pm

re: #62 richard12

Give it time, they just might be. They are in the UK, and across the European mainland. You might be afraid of fanatic right-wing christians, and believe me, I can understand that too. But they don't circumcize their daughters or kill them for honor. Force them to live a life of violence or servitude. And maybe Muslims don't in the US for the most part. But in pretty much every Muslim country they do.

If most Muslims killed their daughters, there wouldn't be any Muslims left.

And no, female circumcision is not actually widely practiced in most Muslim countries. It's odd than an Iraeli would be so ill-informed.

Lidane Mon, Oct 4, 2010 4:09:10pm

re: #74 Obdicut

It's odd than an Iraeli would be so ill-informed.

Makes me wonder if the claim of being Israeli is even true, to be honest.

What, me worry? Mon, Oct 4, 2010 4:12:18pm

re: #58 richard12

I appreciate your integrity and patience. And I understand where you're coming from. Though I believe that there is something inherent in Islam and its writings, NOT IN MUSLIMS, that somehow can be interpreted by so many of their follows to justify violence and the murdering of innocents in the name of their cause, whether that be Jihad or Allah. And this has been shown through the endless attacks we see on a daily basis, whether in Iraq, Afghanistan, London, Israel or New York.

The son of a Hamas founder that saved Israeli lives recently said, its not the Muslim people, its their god: [Link: www.jpost.com...]

You might not agree with it, but its something to chew on.

Actually, I think it's quite the opposite. It's the people and not the religion. Because if it was the religion, you'd have every Muslim, something like 1.5 billion worldwide, making war in every country everywhere because the religion said so.

Closer to the truth is that many Muslims, certainly those living in disputed Israeli territories, are indoctrinated from birth to kill others, but that isn't so here. Muslims have been here 100s of years with no trouble.

The incidents you mentioned, Fort Hood, etc. were part of the 150 incidents the FBI mentioned.

What, me worry? Mon, Oct 4, 2010 4:16:28pm

re: #74 Obdicut

re: #75 Lidane

I don't think it's an issue of ill-informed. His reality is different than ours and it's one I understand.

Obama said we are not at war with Islam. That isn't quite correct. We are at war with extremist Islamic ideology. That ideology is, indeed, killing people all over the world. In fact, the Muslims who are here have fled from that ideology.

Obdicut Mon, Oct 4, 2010 4:39:28pm

re: #77 marjoriemoon

His reality can't be one where most Muslims practice female genital circumcision, because it's not true.

What, me worry? Mon, Oct 4, 2010 4:58:30pm

re: #78 Obdicut

His reality can't be one where most Muslims practice female genital circumcision, because it's not true.

It is practiced, as you know, in some Muslim countries. "Pretty much every" is a stretch. Those who do practice it, misquote the hadith where it is mentioned as they misquote many others.

I find it interesting that the practice actually predates Christianity and therefore, Islam.

Cultural and religious aspects

The traditional cultural practices of FGC predate Christianity and Islam. A Greek papyrus from 163 B.C. mentions girls in Egypt undergoing circumcision and it is widely accepted to have originated in Egypt and the Nile valley at the time of the Pharaohs. Evidence from mummies have shown both Type I and Type III FGC present.[44] (Note that the earliest evidence of male circumcision is also from Ancient Egypt.)

The UNICEF reported that: "... Al-Azhar Supreme Council of Islamic Research, the highest religious authority in Egypt, founded in 970-972 as a madrasa, is the chief centre of Arabic literature and Sunni Islamic learning in the world, issued a statement saying FGM/C has no basis in core Islamic law or any of its partial provisions and that it is harmful and should not be practised."

Coptic Pope Shenouda, the leader of Egypt's minority Christian community, said that neither the Qur'an nor the Bible demand or mention female circumcision.

Obdicut Mon, Oct 4, 2010 5:56:49pm

re: #79 marjoriemoon

Yes, I know it's practiced in some Muslim countries-- mostly African ones.

It's not just a 'stretch' to say 'pretty much every' . It's just totally fucking wrong.

What, me worry? Mon, Oct 4, 2010 5:59:25pm

re: #80 Obdicut

Yes, I know it's practiced in some Muslim countries-- mostly African ones.

It's not just a 'stretch' to say 'pretty much every' . It's just totally fucking wrong.

I was attempting kindness.

richard12 Tue, Oct 5, 2010 12:48:32am

re: #71 wrenchwench

Mother of all? Where did it come from? Mother Mary? Do you think that really makes a difference to me? Its a common expression meant to mean the biggest and most significant.

richard12 Tue, Oct 5, 2010 12:53:55am

re: #72 wrenchwench

Wrench said "I'll never get him and you to see eye-to-eye, but maybe I can get him to see why...reads like bigotry."

There you go throwing around the bigot word after all. It looks like my instincts were correct. I was responding to your approach and not necesarily your words. You can consider my apology as having being invalidated by those last three words.

The fact that I point out facts that don't match your politically correct world doesn't make me a bigot, it makes you unwillingly to accept that other people have opinions that are different than your own, which in fact, makes you the bigot.

How does the following sentence read like bigotry?

"its time the both of you start addressing peoples fears and not belittling them or trying to convince them in vein [sic] that when a terrorist yells Allah Akbar and kills innocent civilians it really has nothing to do with Islam."

Its an observation, one that can't be denied. And so in order for you to try to invalidate it, you accuse it of bigotry. Yet again, calling names and throwing around insults as opposed to addressing the issue. Paint me surprised.

richard12 Tue, Oct 5, 2010 12:55:33am

re: #74 Obdicut

I didn't say most muslims kill their daughters, I said that some do, and its a practice that is somehow valid in their culture. You want to deny that you can go right ahead. Why don't you explain to us how murdering daughters or wifes because they've soiled the family honor isn't only a practice found in Islam?

daliarose Tue, Oct 5, 2010 2:36:26am

I think Ms. O'Connor hits the nail exactly on the head. It doesn't even matter what the Imam may or may not have said in his book, it doesn't matter that people are upset, and the center is not even on Ground Zero. We either have freedom of religion or we don't.

richard12 Tue, Oct 5, 2010 3:21:19am

re: #74 Obdicut

Why don't you relate to the whole sentence, and not just the cherry picked items you decide. The sentence I said was "But they don't circumcise their daughters or kill them for honor. Force them to live a life of violence or servitude. And maybe Muslims don't in the US for the most part. But in pretty much every Muslim country they do."

I wasn't talking only about female circumcision, I was also talking about forcing women to live a life of violence or servitude. And that's a practice that can be found in pretty much every Muslim nation.

Varek Raith Tue, Oct 5, 2010 3:40:44am

re: #86 richard12

We get it.
You hate Muslims.

Obdicut Tue, Oct 5, 2010 3:40:47am

re: #84 richard12

It's not. Fathers have murdered their daughters, wives, etc. in the US over honor as well.

amrafel Tue, Oct 5, 2010 6:10:51am

> "Watch as Robert Spencer actually accuses an imam in the audience of vandalizing his own mosque,"

Is there a clip missing? I didn't find this accusation in the video.

Obdicut Tue, Oct 5, 2010 7:15:12am

re: #89 amrafel

I’m not saying that yours were fabricated. What is - maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t. its why people are suspicious and that kind of thing has to addressed

If I tell you "Maybe you raped a girl, maybe you didn't," I really am making that accusation. I'm just being an asshole about it.

wrenchwench Tue, Oct 5, 2010 9:03:28am

re: #83 richard12

Good morning richard12.

There you go throwing around the bigot word after all. It looks like my instincts were correct. I was responding to your approach and not necesarily your words. You can consider my apology as having being invalidated by those last three words.

There's a difference between saying something you wrote reads like bigotry, and calling you a bigot. I guess the difference is not big enough for someone who came into this already afraid of being called a bigot just for being aware of his circumstances. But I'll consider your apology withdrawn.

The fact that I point out facts that don't match your politically correct world doesn't make me a bigot, it makes you unwillingly to accept that other people have opinions that are different than your own, which in fact, makes you the bigot.

I'll cop to being a bigot, in the mode of the wise Al Jaffee, at least: “I must be a bigot,” he said, “because I hate bigots.” But seriously, you know nothing of my "politically correct" world. So far, you even have my gender wrong. Look up "wench".

How does the following sentence read like bigotry?
"its time the both of you start addressing peoples fears and not belittling them or trying to convince them in vein [sic] that when a terrorist yells Allah Akbar and kills innocent civilians it really has nothing to do with Islam."

Its an observation, one that can't be denied. And so in order for you to try to invalidate it, you accuse it of bigotry. Yet again, calling names and throwing around insults as opposed to addressing the issue. Paint me surprised.

That's not an observation, that's instructing Charles Johnson and Jon Stewart to do what you feel they should do, based on how you view the fears of people who want the Park51 Mother of All Muslim Community Centers moved. That is, you feel people who fear Imam Rauf because some members of a sect of his religion attacked some buildings nearby are justified in asking that the project be moved. I disagree with that, and I said you are supporting bigots because that position is being pushed by actual, real life bigots. You haven't addressed most of what I've said in my comments to you, but you did address this comment about you, taking offense. I've spent more time on this than I should have.

Montaigne's Cat Tue, Oct 5, 2010 11:00:23am

this is from CNN 30 minutes ago:

New York (CNN) -- A judge in Manhattan sentenced Faisal Shahzad to life in prison for the botched Times Square car bombing as the 31-year-old Pakistani-American defiantly warned in court to "brace yourself, the war with Muslims has just begun."
"The defeat of the U.S. is imminent, inshallah, " Shahzad said on Tuesday during the sentencing.....

To say such things Faisal Shahzad reveals himself to be a racist and a Republican.

Gus Tue, Oct 5, 2010 11:04:48am

re: #92 Montaigne's Cat

Troll.

wrenchwench Tue, Oct 5, 2010 11:09:44am

re: #93 Gus 802

Troll.

Troll with a mad dinger.

Gus Tue, Oct 5, 2010 11:11:19am

re: #94 wrenchwench

Troll with a mad dinger.

Yeah. I've been watching. He's up-dinging everything the now blocked richard12 posted and down dinging the others. That includes his last (and almost first since a very long time.) trolling comment.

Karma: 24
Montaigne's Cat

(Logged in)
Registered since: Jun 15, 2004 at 12:04 pm
No. of comments posted: 550
No. of links posted: 1

wrenchwench Tue, Oct 5, 2010 11:13:14am

re: #95 Gus 802

Yeah. I've been watching. He's up-dinging everything the now blocked richard12 posted and down dinging the others. That includes his last (and almost first since a very long time.) trolling comment.

Whoops, did I type out a long response to an ex-lizard? Bigger waste of time than I thought.

Wonder whether the cat and the 12 know each other.

Charles Johnson Tue, Oct 5, 2010 11:31:18am

Imagine my surprise to find some anti-Muslim bigots and fans of Robert Spencer ranting away in a dead thread.

[deleted] Tue, Oct 5, 2010 12:05:28pm

[deleted] Wed, Oct 6, 2010 12:33:10am

100

[deleted] Wed, Oct 6, 2010 12:35:04am

101

[deleted] Wed, Oct 6, 2010 1:21:38am

102

[deleted] Wed, Oct 6, 2010 2:37:23am

103

[deleted] Wed, Oct 6, 2010 8:08:48am

104

Charles Johnson Wed, Oct 6, 2010 9:43:38am

Bigoted assholes are not welcome to spew their crap at LGF any more. Go hang out at Robert Spencer's hate site -- you'll feel much more welcome there.

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