Tennessee Pay-To-Spray Firefighters Watch As Home Burns Down

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The conservative vision of utopia (touted by many of the GOP candidates in this election) is a society in which most government agencies are privatized, and unfettered free enterprise reigns supreme.

Here’s a look at what that vision means in the real world: Tennessee County’s Subscription-Based Firefighters Watch As Family Home Burns Down.

Imagine your home catches fire but the local fire department won’t respond, then watches it burn. That’s exactly what happened to a local family tonight. A local neighborhood is furious after firefighters watched as an Obion County, Tennessee, home burned to the ground.

The homeowner, Gene Cranick, said he offered to pay whatever it would take for firefighters to put out the flames, but was told it was too late. They wouldn’t do anything to stop his house from burning. Each year, Obion County residents must pay $75 if they want fire protection from the city of South Fulton. But the Cranicks did not pay. The mayor said if homeowners don’t pay, they’re out of luck. […]

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667 comments
1 Stanghazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:03:42am

I was just reading this.

So much for love your neighbor and all that crap.

2 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:03:51am

But personal responsibility trumps compassion!

3 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:03:56am

You could probably find a number of similar stories. Our volunteer company in northern NJ got to this policy years ago, though I'm not sure they executed it.

4 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:04:48am

Going Galt!

5 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:05:11am

Morally despicable. Laissez-faire? I'll pass.

6 Varek Raith  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:05:24am

Guy Montag could not be reached for comment.

7 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:05:26am

Another important lesson to draw from this:

But the fascinating part of this story for me is that the firefighters ended up having to put the fire out on the property of a neighbor who had paid the fee. That's actually why we have taxes and common payment for essential services like fire fighting. Yes, the Cranicks saved on tax-like fee payments, and yes, they suffered the consequences of doing so. But their neighbor paid for protection, and suffered fire damage anyway. And not because of random accident, but because the firefighters were forced to refuse to come to the Cranicks' assistance. If they had, the neighbor would have had no damage at all.

It's also why we do things like treat even undocumented immigrants in hospital emergency rooms. No, they haven't paid. But yes, you stand a much better chance of not getting their tuberculosis when you hire them on the cheap, pretending not to notice their immigration status.

Socialism!!11!1!!ty

8 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:06:45am

WTF? I thought I was watching The Onion while watching the video? For 75 dollars these firemen refused to budge?

Un-freaking believable.

9 BishopX  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:06:51am

God I love libertarians.

/

10 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:07:17am

Seriously fucked up.

11 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:08:35am

America started down the slippery slope to socialism when we made libraries public, in contradiction to wishes of the Founding Fathers.

12 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:08:57am

but...but NO TAXES!

//

13 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:09:14am

Shame! Shame! Shame!

My dad, who was a career fire-fighter and (at one point) state fire marshall, is rolling over in his grave.

The firemen I grew up around would have said "Screw this subscription crap, put the fire out and bill him if we need to."

14 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:10:49am

re: #8 Gus 802

WTF? I thought I was watching The Onion while watching the video? For 75 dollars these firemen refused to budge?

Un-freaking believable.

I skimmed the story earlier and assumed it was a spoof or something. I was wrong.

15 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:11:25am

Coming soon to a conservative utopia near you;

"Officer, I want to report an assault. I was just attacked by a mob in the street."

"Whats your subscription number?"

"My what? I was just attacked and I need help."

"Sorry, buddy. If you're not a paying customer, I can't help ya."

16 pharmmajor  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:11:50am

Unbelievable. I would fire those worthless firefighters on the spot.

17 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:14:24am

Just posted this to my FB page. Curious to see if the libertarians on my friend's list respond.

18 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:14:26am

Commie tax-supported fire departments are not delineated in the constitution.

19 jaunte  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:14:38am
The homeowner, Gene Cranick, said he offered to pay whatever it would take for firefighters to put out the flames, but was told it was too late.


Note to firefighters, this isn't even the free market operating, it's just vindictive.

20 Varek Raith  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:14:47am

re: #16 pharmmajor

Unbelievable. I would fire those worthless firefighters on the spot.

They were doing what the market demanded.
No pay, no service.
Fucked up.

21 pharmmajor  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:16:08am

re: #20 Varek Raith

They were doing what the market demanded.
No pay, no service.
Fucked up.

Cranick said he would pay them if they put it out. Common sense and compassion should have dictated the situation then; put out the fire and don't be petty.

22 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:16:46am

re: #21 pharmmajor

Cranick said he would pay them if they put it out. Common sense and compassion should have dictated the situation then; put out the fire and don't be petty.

They probably assumed he was a welfare cheat.

23 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:16:51am

re: #20 Varek Raith

They were doing what the market demanded.
No pay, no service.
Fucked up.

This is also wonderful advertising. I'm sure the subscriptions are flowing in today.

24 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:17:51am

Note that the pay-for-spray firefighters had a military-surplus tanker truck, no doubt donated free of charge by the evil feds; that is, you and me.

25 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:18:11am

Any protection racket needs to provide an example of what happens when you don't pay.

26 nines09  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:18:11am

I think that someone break it to them. They are NOT firemen. They are calculating businessmen, but NOT firemen. But I can hear the wheels turning now about how they didn't pay and others did and, and, and...... Talk about freaking insanity. Stupid stupid stupid.

27 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:19:05am

re: #24 Shiplord Kirel

Note that the pay-for-spray firefighters had a military-surplus tanker truck, no doubt donated free of charge by the evil feds; that is, you and me.

And drove there over roads that this poor bastard helped pay for with his taxes.

And received training that was paid for by taxes.

Etc.

28 BishopX  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:19:46am

re: #21 pharmmajor

This doesn't work. If you require a subscription you can't allow people to pay when they need it. Otherwise you'll have people taping envelopes with $75 in them to their doors rather than paying the fire department. Allowing users to buy insurance when they need it leads to a death spiral. It's like requiring health insurance cover pre-existing conditions without requiring that people have insurance.

29 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:21:46am

re: #25 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Any protection racket needs to provide an example of what happens when you don't pay.

More impressive if a couple kids had been home.

30 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:22:20am

re: #29 Decatur Deb

More impressive if a couple kids had been home.

Eh, you work with what you got.

31 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:24:06am

What responsibility does the county mayor have? Found something that might be a bit of a curve ball here.

32 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:24:25am

re: #25 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Any protection racket needs to provide an example of what happens when you don't pay.

Terry Prachett had a very apt quote about private fire insurance brigades being forcibly disbanded the weekend after they realized they'd make more money by setting fires.

33 Neutral President  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:25:04am

This is what anarcho-capitalism looks like, and rather than Conservatopia it would be better labeled Anacapistan. It's not necessarily an example of conservative or libertarian principles at work. That would probably look more like the city contracting out fire protection to a private company instead of running it themselves while still paying for it with tax revenue and providing the service to all. There are debatable pros and cons to that.

No reasonable person who is supportive of free markets goes as far as County. Only the kooks from the Von Mises Institute, survivalist whack-jobs, and people who praise Somalia's economy advocate this kind of garbage. They might make it seem ok on paper (they try really hard too), but really all it becomes is a protection racket.

34 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:25:31am

re: #32 Obdicut

Terry Prachett had a very apt quote about private fire insurance brigades being forcibly disbanded the weekend after they realized they'd make more money by setting fires.

What is he? A fricking communist?!
/

35 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:26:12am

re: #33 ArchangelMichael

This is what anarcho-capitalism looks like, and rather than Conservatopia it would be better labeled Anacapistan. It's not necessarily an example of conservative or libertarian principles at work. That would probably look more like the city contracting out fire protection to a private company instead of running it themselves while still paying for it with tax revenue and providing the service to all. There are debatable pros and cons to that.

No reasonable person who is supportive of free markets goes as far as County. Only the kooks from the Von Mises Institute, survivalist whack-jobs, and people who praise Somalia's economy advocate this kind of garbage. They might make it seem ok on paper (they try really hard too), but really all it becomes is a protection racket.

Civilization is a protection racket.

36 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:26:31am

OT-sorry.
Ovens down. No stuffed shrimp. No Surf and Turf. No lotsa stuff. Fucking killing me. Out.

37 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:26:38am

re: #33 ArchangelMichael

Especially because, as this real-life incident shows, fire is something that affects the community. Unless everyone's houses are a mile away from each other surrounded by firebreaks.

38 pharmmajor  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:27:20am

re: #33 ArchangelMichael

This is what anarcho-capitalism looks like, and rather than Conservatopia it would be better labeled Anacapistan. It's not necessarily an example of conservative or libertarian principles at work. That would probably look more like the city contracting out fire protection to a private company instead of running it themselves while still paying for it with tax revenue and providing the service to all. There are debatable pros and cons to that.

No reasonable person who is supportive of free markets goes as far as County. Only the kooks from the Von Mises Institute, survivalist whack-jobs, and people who praise Somalia's economy advocate this kind of garbage. They might make it seem ok on paper (they try really hard too), but really all it becomes is a protection racket.

Exactly. This is not the free market at work, this is a protection racket.

39 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:28:41am

I have heard the usual suspects (talk radio dipweeds) suggest that the Coast Guard, Civil Air Patrol, armed forces, etc. bill people for rescue operations that are brought about by the rescuee's own carelessness.

These costs can run into the hundreds of thousands very quickly.

Professionals in these organizations are steadfastly opposed to this, since it will obviously result in endangered people being very reluctant to call for help. As it is, most wait too long.

40 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:29:08am

re: #38 pharmmajor

Exactly. This is not the free market at work, this is a protection racket.

It's both. The free market can be a protection market.

41 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:29:20am

re: #38 pharmmajor

Exactly. This is not the free market at work, this is a protection racket.

The free market at work IS a protection racket, if untempered by a strong, well-funded government capable of providing basic services.

This is your libertarian paradise, folks. This is what "privatization" (i.e., corporatism) looks like.

42 avanti  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:30:18am

It's not far from Sharon Angle's comments about health insurance covering autism. After all, she's not having more kids, why should she pay for those that do. Heck, I opposed the war in Iraq, why can't I deduct that from my taxes. / If I live in NYC and don't drive, why pay for interstate highways ?

43 SpaceJesus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:31:01am

remember, when you fight fires for free, you are fighting for communism

44 pharmmajor  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:31:31am

re: #41 Fozzie Bear

This is your libertarian paradise, folks. This is what "privatization" (i.e., corporatism) looks like.

Look, as contemptible as this situation is, you can't say that this is an indicator of what all privatized services would be like.

45 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:31:34am

re: #39 Shiplord Kirel

My friend the retired smoke jumper called that idea the stupidest one he's ever heard. He pointed out we don't really penalize people for being stupid in most cases. Stupidly get drunk at a bar where you don't know anyone and get mugged? The police don't make you pay for the investigation.

46 Neutral President  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:31:42am

re: #37 Obdicut

Especially because, as this real-life incident shows, fire is something that affects the community. Unless everyone's houses are a mile away from each other surrounded by firebreaks.

Ana-caps and extreme libertarians will try to argue until they are blue in the face that "The Commons" does not exist. Not sure what planet they are on where everything is discretely isolated like that.

47 Stanghazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:31:55am

The homeowner went to the fire dept., punched the fire chief, was arrested.

WILD WEST (South)!!

South Fulton’s fire chief was assaulted Wednesday in the aftermath of a fire where firefighters were unable to respond because the property owner had not paid a rural fire subscription fee.

South Fulton Fire Chief David Wilds was treated at an area hospital after being assaulted about 5:45 p.m. at the city’s fire station, located in the South Fulton Municipal Building.

Timothy A. Cranick, 44, a resident of Buddy Jones Road near South Fulton, was arrested and charged with felony aggravated assault, according to South Fulton Police Chief Andy Crocker.

[Link: www.nwtntoday.com...]

48 wrenchwench  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:32:51am

re: #44 pharmmajor

Look, as contemptible as this situation is, you can't say that this is an indicator of what all privatized services would be like.

But you can use it as an example of the problems one runs into when trying to make "libertarianism" work.

49 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:33:09am

I don't think this will work out well for the "fire fighters".

50 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:33:28am

re: #47 Stanley Sea

The homeowner went to the fire dept., punched the fire chief, was arrested.

WILD WEST (South)!!

[Link: www.nwtntoday.com...]

I hope the fire chief has paid his Police and Judicial subscriptions.

51 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:33:55am

re: #31 Gus 802

What responsibility does the county mayor have? Found something that might be a bit of a curve ball here.

Good point. In the two states I know about, Texas and California, fire departments are required to fight any fire they can reach if no other department can get there first. If this is in another jurisdiction, the cost has to be settled later with that jurisdiction, the county in this case. That apparently is not the case in Tennessee.

52 jaunte  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:33:56am

Maybe the The Heritage Foundation will rethink this piece:
How Success of Private Fire Departments Undermines Obamacare
[Link: webcache.googleusercontent.com...]
Probably not.

53 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:34:04am

From the article;

The fire reportedly continued for hours “because garden hoses just wouldn’t put it out. It wasn’t until that fire spread to a neighbor’s property, that anyone would respond” — only because the neighbor had paid the fee.

54 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:34:51am

re: #52 jaunte

of course not, this is just one isolated incident.

//

55 pharmmajor  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:35:18am

The whole subscription-based firefighting was a city policy, so hopefully this sad event will encourage the voters in that city to vote out the politicians who enacted it and fight to get it repealed.

56 SpaceJesus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:35:18am

i want to buy a a firetruck now and move to tennessee and put fires out for a dollar or a case of beer, thereby undercutting these assholes.

57 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:35:24am

re: #54 Dreggas

of course not, this is just one isolated incident.

//

See my #3.

58 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:36:00am

re: #47 Stanley Sea

The homeowner went to the fire dept., punched the fire chief, was arrested.

WILD WEST (South)!!

[Link: www.nwtntoday.com...]

Maybe the fire department forgot to pay their police subscription and he will go free. Nah.

59 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:36:11am

re: #57 Decatur Deb

that's why i added the sarc tag. :)

60 Locker  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:36:27am

This is what happens when you allow vital services to be distributed based on who can pay the most. Health care, net neutrality, fire fighting, education, roads, etc all become "luxury" services for the wealth.

61 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:36:31am

re: #56 SpaceJesus

i want to buy a a firetruck now and move to tennessee and put fires out for a dollar or a case of beer, thereby undercutting these assholes.

Running the beer through your Little Pumper?

62 Neutral President  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:36:42am

re: #41 Fozzie Bear

The free market at work IS a protection racket, if untempered by a strong, well-funded government capable of providing basic services.

This is your libertarian paradise, folks. This is what "privatization" (i.e., corporatism) looks like.

In a laissez-faire capitalist system corporations cannot exist as they do today. They require all kinds of government intervention in the form of the legal fiction of "personhood" and framework of laws that gives them limited liability. Both laissez-faire capitalism and corporatism are horrible things in practice, but they are different things.

63 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:36:44am

re: #44 pharmmajor

Look, as contemptible as this situation is, you can't say that this is an indicator of what all privatized services would be like.

This is what it looks like when basic government services are turned into profit-making enterprises. This has been going on with schools, prisons, law enforcement, the military, and yes, fire departments - for decades. And this is what it leads to.

If a corporation is to provide government services, they will do so for profit, not out of a sense of duty. This is what corporatism looks like. This is libertarianism. This is Norquist-style conservatism, at work.

64 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:37:16am

re: #52 jaunte

Maybe the The Heritage Foundation will rethink this piece:
How Success of Private Fire Departments Undermines Obamacare
[Link: webcache.googleusercontent.com...]
Probably not.

lol

65 SpaceJesus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:37:45am

re: #61 Decatur Deb

Running the beer through your Little Pumper?


efficiency is how i run my ship good sir

66 JeffM70  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:38:13am

The fires of freedom burn bright, and sometimes they burn you.

67 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:38:40am

re: #63 Fozzie Bear

the same can be said for ambulance services. If your insurance doesn't cover a portion of it you can get stuck with a large ambulance bill just to be taken to the hospital.

68 SpaceJesus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:38:53am

re: #66 JeffM70


elaborate

69 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:40:38am

re: #67 Dreggas

the same can be said for ambulance services. If your insurance doesn't cover a portion of it you can get stuck with a large ambulance bill just to be taken to the hospital.

Not quite the same thing. The ambulance will send you a bill after driving you to the hospital. They don't just leave you to die, well, maybe in Tennessee, but not where I live. But then, I think basic medical care should be a public service, liberal that I am.

70 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:40:52am

So what happens if they fuck up and let someones house burn who paid?

"I have paid! Are you guys going to put it out or what?"

"Got a receipt?"

"Its in the house!"

"Thats what they all say."

71 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:42:22am

re: #67 Dreggas

the same can be said for ambulance services. If your insurance doesn't cover a portion of it you can get stuck with a large ambulance bill just to be taken to the hospital.

Except the Ambulance and Hospital are required to render assistance first, they don't keep you waiting there with a gunshot wound while they wait for the payment to clear first.

72 pharmmajor  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:42:40am

re: #69 Fozzie Bear

Not quite the same thing. The ambulance will send you a bill after driving you to the hospital. They don't just leave you to die, well, maybe in Tennessee, but not where I live.

And this again brings up the issue that could have prevented this disaster. If the fire crew had been willing to accept payment after putting the fire out, then Cranick would still have his house and there'd be no problem. What the firefighters did was cruel and misanthropic.

73 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:43:27am

re: #62 ArchangelMichael

In a laissez-faire capitalist system corporations cannot exist as they do today. They require all kinds of government intervention in the form of the legal fiction of "personhood" and framework of laws that gives them limited liability. Both laissez-faire capitalism and corporatism are horrible things in practice, but they are different things.

Laissez-faire capitalism leads to corporatism. If you don't levy sufficient taxes to be able to provide basic services, then for-profit industry steps in and performs the service for those who can afford it. If you have money, it's all the same, you get your services one way or the other. Those who pay the price are those who can't afford to pay enough for services for them to be profitable to provide.

74 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:44:13am

re: #73 Fozzie Bear

Laissez-faire capitalism leads to corporatism. If you don't levy sufficient taxes to be able to provide basic services, then for-profit industry steps in and performs the service for those who can afford it. If you have money, it's all the same, you get your services one way or the other. Those who pay the price are those who can't afford to pay enough for services for them to be profitable to provide.

Unless your place is downwind from the slum full of those unwilling to pay...

/

75 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:44:20am

The homeowners' insurance companies must love this situation. Of course insurance is another tranzi collectivist giveaway.

76 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:44:30am

re: #72 pharmmajor

And this again brings up the issue that could have prevented this disaster. If the fire crew had been willing to accept payment after putting the fire out, then Cranick would still have his house and there'd be no problem. What the firefighters did was cruel and misanthropic.

And if the homeowner didn't have $75.00 at that moment? Should they let it burn down?

77 wrenchwench  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:44:35am

re: #72 pharmmajor

And this again brings up the issue that could have prevented this disaster. If the fire crew had been willing to accept payment after putting the fire out, then Cranick would still have his house and there'd be no problem. What the firefighters did was cruel and misanthropic, and in keeping with the libertarian-style policy in place at the time.


FTFY

No charge, even if you aren't a subscriber.

78 pharmmajor  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:46:02am

re: #76 Fozzie Bear

And if the homeowner didn't have $75.00 at that moment? Should they let it burn down?

You get a certain amount of time to pay off your hospital bill; you're telling me they couldn't have waited for a measly $75.00?

79 SpaceJesus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:47:05am

re: #72 pharmmajor

naw, the problem could have been solved with the citizens and government there not being jackasses

80 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:47:07am

What a horrible way to do things.

I have to admit with the amount (and type) of reading that I do, the first thing that popped to mind was the short-lived Fire Brigade of Ankh-Mopork, who had to be shut down because they were paid per fire.

Being Ankh-Moporkians, this led to a sudden rash of fires.

My mind is weird.

81 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:48:29am

Couldn't be too hard to have the ability to have a "quick form" for a non-subscriber to promise payment for immediate fire services, and then bill the guy an amount greater than $75. High enough that the $75 annual fee is a reasonable option compared to risking the higher bill.

82 Ericus58  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:48:31am

What a lack of safeguarding the community.

They didn't pay the subscription? That is no reason to allow a dangerous situation to continue.
Why was there not a policy in place to handle this; home owner hasn't paid - put out the fire and bill them the cost of the operation.
This isn't a flooded basement issue, this is a destructive force that can kill.

I understand that this has been policy in this county for sometime, but it sure looks like some new policy and procedures need to changed and implemented.

83 reginald perrin  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:49:14am

I watched the video and it makes it sound even worse. The fire took hours to reach the house, the original call was for a grass fire.

84 JeffM70  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:50:34am

re: #68 SpaceJesus

elaborate

A flowery way of saying we are free to make choices, and sometimes we get burned by those choices, pun intended.

85 SpaceJesus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:50:42am

make churches pay taxes, that way acts of god like freak fires can be paid for without subscription fees.

86 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:50:49am

re: #83 reginald perrin

I watched the video and it makes it sound even worse. The fire took hours to reach the house, the original call was for a grass fire.

The grass should have paid its subscription!

87 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:51:33am

re: #72 pharmmajor

And this again brings up the issue that could have prevented this disaster. If the fire crew had been willing to accept payment after putting the fire out, then Cranick would still have his house and there'd be no problem. What the firefighters did was cruel and misanthropic.

For such a staunch libertarian it's strange that you would so thoroughly fail to grasp the concept of moral hazard. If subscription fees can be paid after service is required, then very few people would pay up front and revenue would diminish to unsustainable levels. This is why your system is inherently broken and why any real world implementation of libertarianism must be necessarily cruel and unforgiving.

88 jcbeckman  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:51:34am

He only punched the Fire Chief so they'd arrest him and he would have a place to live,, since his cheapness let his house burn down...

What the heck kind of country is this where firemen watch people's houses burn down? What the heck is going on here???

89 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:51:45am

re: #78 pharmmajor

You get a certain amount of time to pay off your hospital bill; you're telling me they couldn't have waited for a measly $75.00?

See, here's the issue: It doesn't make any sense at all to have firefighting services be an optional purchase, as letting fires burn upon nonpayment will lead to the fires spreading to other homes. It only makes sense for the cost of firefighting to be paid by everyone, as a compulsory fee. A compulsory fee could also be called a tax.

It just doesn't make any fucking sense for firefighting to be an "industry". It has been a government service in the US for a long time, because the alternative doesn't make any fucking sense.

90 brownbagj  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:51:54am

What if you are making payments on the fire department scheme? DO they save the same percentage as you have paid?

What if the check is really in the mail.

Stupid, stupid. This is not small government to me. This is a protection racket.

91 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:52:16am

Note an element of city-county conflict here. The county obviously didn't have a mutual aid agreement (possibly didn't have an FD to be 'mutual' with.) Under recent economic pressure, a lot of public libraries are withdrawing privileges from out-of-area commuters.

92 brownbagj  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:54:16am

re: #85 SpaceJesus

Topic for another day, but I do think chruches should pay taxes. And I attend one.

Much healthier for the church and the government.

93 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:54:41am

re: #87 goddamnedfrank

For such a staunch libertarian it's strange that you would so thoroughly fail to grasp the concept of moral hazard. If subscription fees can be paid after service is required, then very few people would pay up front and revenue would diminish to unsustainable levels. This is why your system is inherently broken and why any real world implementation of libertarianism must be necessarily cruel and unforgiving.

The contorted and ridiculous arguments pharmmajor is making here are the logical endpoint of a dogma not based in reason.

If they can just bill you after the fact, nobody will pay. It needs to be compulsory, i.e., a tax, i.e., a government service. Any other way makes no fucking sense.

94 harrylook  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:56:29am

This is one of the dumbest policies I have ever heard of. I mean, obviously it puts the public at risk, making a small fire much more dangerous than it needs to be. I must know the reasoning behind the 20 year old policy. The linked source doesn't say, but only speculates about "the conservative vision" of governance....

95 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:57:14am

re: #93 Fozzie Bear

Through the 1800's some large city fire services incl NYC, used a system in which insurance companies retroactively paid FD associations to put out the insured fires. Didn't work real well, but did give us Tammany Hall.

96 pharmmajor  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:57:28am

re: #87 goddamnedfrank

For such a staunch libertarian it's strange that you would so thoroughly fail to grasp the concept of moral hazard. If subscription fees can be paid after service is required, then very few people would pay up front and revenue would diminish to unsustainable levels.

Ericus58 provided a solution to that:

# 82 Why was there not a policy in place to handle this; home owner hasn't paid - put out the fire and bill them the cost of the operation.
This isn't a flooded basement issue, this is a destructive force that can kill.

Also, just because I'm a libertarian doesn't mean I lack compassion.

97 brownbagj  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:57:40am

Using garden hoses reminds me of a joke about the VFD in my small hometown....

"THe fired would have burned out in two hours by itself, but with the help of the xxx FD, they managed to keep it burning all day long."

98 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:59:40am

re: #96 pharmmajor

Ericus58 provided a solution to that:

Also, just because I'm a libertarian doesn't mean I lack compassion.

And what incentive then would remain for homeowners to pay the fee in the first place?

The only people who would pay if the fee were not compulsory (i.e., a tax) would be people whose homes had already caught fire. You are defending a logically and morally indefensible position.

99 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:02:05pm

Not that I want my FD privatized, I do not. But I must disagree on a few things here.

Think Progress does not nearly have as good a point as they would like to think. A MAYOR gets the credit for this policy. That was a city FD, not a private one. There is a shadow of a straw man here. Think Progress has avoided the obvious private option. A city contracts for them. Not house by house. Gonna be a monopoly like water and power.

Why did they show up before a subscriber called? Why did they refuse payment for services rendered?

If firefighting went private, would the entire city or county not be the subscriber? Rather than individual homes? Like privatized prisons? Water? Power? Umm utility model not the Rand Paul model?

100 pharmmajor  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:02:36pm

re: #98 Fozzie Bear

And what incentive then would remain for homeowners to pay the fee in the first place?
.

If the fee paid up front was a lower cost than what you would pay after service without the fee, that would be an incentive.

101 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:03:01pm

re: #96 pharmmajor

Ericus58 provided a solution to that:

# 82 Why was there not a policy in place to handle this; home owner hasn't paid - put out the fire and bill them the cost of the operation.
This isn't a flooded basement issue, this is a destructive force that can kill.

Also, just because I'm a libertarian doesn't mean I lack compassion.

That's not a solution, but a recipe for massive non-payment and erosion of the subscription model to one of fee for service. It is also worth noting that you just described the business model favored by Marcus Licinius Crassus. You really do not understand moral hazard at all.

102 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:03:07pm

re: #92 brownbagj

Topic for another day, but I do think chruches should pay taxes. And I attend one.

Much healthier for the church and the government.

One of the things I like about the Disciples of Christ is their lack of a policy on taxation: "If they tax us, we pay. If they don't, WE REJOICE!)

103 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:03:25pm

Just wait until his insurance company sues the city for dereliction of duty.
LOL

104 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:04:04pm

I'd like everyone to consider this:

The current for-profit prison industry has no incentive to actually help prisoners become non-criminals after their release. In fact, they have an incentive to make sure that any criminal commits crimes upon their release, since the prisons make money per inmate housed.

105 Big Steve  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:04:57pm

Let me offer a counter argument to all the panty knotting over this. I am on a city council and we have an incorporated area where there are regular homes and businesses and lots of rural land. We have done this analysis several times. When you figure the total cost of fire protection and divide it by total property values you get one number. When you take the services and divide it by building property value you get a much different number. In the former, people who have businesses or residents with houses are way under paying for fire protection and those with farm or rural property are over paying. I think paying for a service as you might need it would be more fair.

106 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:05:20pm

Benjamin Franklin invented:

The lightning rod, which was so successful nobody even thinks about the fact their home has one. They just take it for granted that that we are safe from thunderstorms in our own homes, without bothering to figure out why.

The Franklin Stove, which has saved millions of women from burning to death over the last 200 years. (Cooking with long skirts in front of an open fire was very hazardous.)

The lending library. Seriously. The first one was a small, members-only subscription library, but he and Andrew Carnegie share the praise for our national library system.

The fire department. Dec 7, 1736. Volunteers. Every home was mandated to have a fire-fighting bucket inside.

107 avanti  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:05:21pm

Early reports are that 8 terrorists with Germans passports were just killed in a drone attack.

Drone.

108 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:05:42pm

re: #103 Rightwingconspirator

Just wait until his insurance company sues the city for dereliction of duty.
LOL

Or they hold the guy liable because he failed to take proper precautions like paying his fire fighting subscription and declare his policy void in this case.

109 pharmmajor  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:06:55pm

re: #108 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Or they hold the guy liable because he failed to take proper precautions like paying his fire fighting subscription and declare his policy void in this case.

That would be adding insult to injury, and would be disgusting.

110 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:08:02pm

re: #109 pharmmajor

That would be adding insult to injury, and would be disgusting.

And yet I can easily see a claims adjustor making just that case as a reason why the company would not need to pay on the policy.

111 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:08:23pm

re: #104 Obdicut

LADWP has no incentive to ask me to save power right?
Except they do with every bill.

Judging by the rate of recidivism among release felons, the government has wildly inadequate motivation as well. Have you found a statistical advantage in recidivism for any kind of prison? I have the impression our prisons in fact have the opposite effect. Bastards learn new crime skills in there private or not.

112 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:08:49pm

I would think that the insurance companies inside the county would make the payment mandatory.

113 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:08:59pm

re: #109 pharmmajor

That would be adding insult to injury, and would be disgusting.

That's business, baby

FREE MARKIT!13q

114 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:09:42pm

re: #110 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And yet I can easily see a claims adjustor making just that case as a reason why the company would not need to pay on the policy.

It's like he;s never heard of, oh, the thousands of health care horror stories of people being hosed by their insurance

115 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:09:56pm

re: #110 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And yet I can easily see a claims adjustor making just that case as a reason why the company would not need to pay on the policy.

Would depend on the wording of the policy regarding computation of the premium/identified FD resources. If they can beat it they will, or be cheating their investors.

116 brownbagj  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:09:58pm

re: #110 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

When getting an insurance policy for fire protection, they determine how far away you are from the closest fire station. I can guarantee you, if they knew that this department was pay for spray and you did not pay, they would have not given you the insurance.

I bet his insurance is going to get out of paying due to lack of relevant information.

117 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:11:02pm

Look at it this way. Lets assume a system in which homeowners may opt to pay or not pay a "bill" for firefighting services. Lets also assume that homeowners are allowed to pay after the fact if their homes should catch fire, in exchange for having the fire put out. Lets also assume that everyone acts in their own economic best interests. Pretend you are a homeowner.

The only logical thing to do, if you are acting in your own rational self interest, is not pay for the service unless your house catches fire, then pay the bill after the fact. Thus, the fire department will only receive payment proportional to the number of homes that catch fire.

So, you end up with a situation in which it is in every homeowner's best interests to not pay for the service unless it is rendered, and in every fire department's best interests for there to be as many fires as possible. The inevitable result is that the cost of firefighting will shift to a fee-for-service model rather than an insurance model, and it will become not only extremely expensive, but it will be in the best interests of fire departments to be bad at putting out fires. After all, the more homes the fire spreads to, the more people you get to bill.

As always is the case in economics, this is a case of incentives on the the individual level being incompatible with what is best for society as a whole. This is why privatizing basic government services is a logically bankrupt idea. It places personal incentive at odds with the desired outcome: a well-funded and effective fire department that wants as few fires as possible.

118 BongGhazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:12:05pm

re: #87 goddamnedfrank

For such a staunch libertarian it's strange that you would so thoroughly fail to grasp the concept of moral hazard. If subscription fees can be paid after service is required, then very few people would pay up front and revenue would diminish to unsustainable levels. This is why your system is inherently broken and why any real world implementation of libertarianism must be necessarily cruel and unforgiving.


Exactly. In that type of political environment, wouldn't a man or woman capable of making that sort of decision be more likely to rise in the hierarchy than someone who's not such a champion of cost efficiency?

"Compassionate libertarianism" has got oxymoron written all over it.

119 Stanghazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:12:09pm

re: #108 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Or they hold the guy liable because he failed to take proper precautions like paying his fire fighting subscription and declare his policy void in this case.

My bet is on this.

120 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:12:20pm

re: #63 Fozzie Bear

This is what it looks like when basic government services are turned into profit-making enterprises. This has been going on with schools, prisons, law enforcement, the military, and yes, fire departments - for decades. And this is what it leads to.

If a corporation is to provide government services, they will do so for profit, not out of a sense of duty. This is what corporatism looks like. This is libertarianism. This is Norquist-style conservatism, at work.

This is sort of the dark future from 70's and 80's sci-fi movies made flesh.

121 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:12:46pm

re: #109 pharmmajor

That would be adding insult to injury, and would be disgusting.

That would be smart business. If it were legal to do so, the insurer would be remiss in its fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders were it NOT to deny payment on such grounds.

122 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:13:07pm

re: #109 pharmmajor

That would be adding insult to injury, and would be disgusting.

Hello, moral hazard again, why should the insurance company pay for policy holder's inability or unwillingness to do proper due diligence?

123 Ericus58  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:13:23pm

re: #98 Fozzie Bear

"And what incentive then would remain for homeowners to pay the fee in the first place?"

Faced with paying $75 a year vs. Several thousand dollars would sure be an incentive ;

If voters in a county want a subscription-based service (fire fighting should not be one), that is their choice.
What should have been in place is the policy of covering the "what if" so that needless loss of property or even more imiportant - lives are not put at risk.

124 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:13:27pm

re: #107 avanti

Early reports are that 8 terrorists with Germans passports were just killed in a drone attack.

Drone.

Nice!

125 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:13:27pm

On the subject of public services, etc, I recently learned that my friend in Indiana has to pay "rental" fees for her son's books (he's in public school.)

$249.

I homeschool, so I can tell you she could have bought the books used, online, for that amount.

I asked what happened if they can't pay, but she didn't answer the question.

Here, the kids have to have a $110 calculator for certain classes. If you don't have one, I guess they have some you can use in class, but can't take home, which would put some kids at a definitive disadvantage.

Maybe they have some in the library? I would like to think.

126 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:13:44pm

re: #116 brownbagj

When getting an insurance policy for fire protection, they determine how far away you are from the closest fire station. I can guarantee you, if they knew that this department was pay for spray and you did not pay, they would have not given you the insurance.

I bet his insurance is going to get out of paying due to lack of relevant information.

"Pay to spray" should be fucking illegal illegal illegal ILLEGAL

Think about what would happen if that fire spread to other houses

Libertarianism is actually pretty disgusting and unworkable when you look at the reality of it

127 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:14:17pm

re: #120 WindUpBird

This is sort of the dark future from 70's and 80's sci-fi movies made flesh.

By 80's movie standards, we can get Jack Palance to play the bad guy, Thom Thomerson to play the heroic lead, and throw in Jennifer Anniston as his sidekick in one of her early movie roles.

128 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:14:17pm

re: #124 Killgore Trout

Nice!

Achmed the Dead Terrorist wanted company?

129 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:14:48pm

re: #126 WindUpBird

"Pay to spray" should be fucking illegal illegal illegal ILLEGAL

Think about what would happen if that fire spread to other houses

Libertarianism is actually pretty disgusting and unworkable when you look at the reality of it

But it sounds so good on the bumper.

130 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:14:49pm

re: #128 EmmmieG

Achmed the Dead Terrorist wanted company?

I KEEEEEL YOU!!
//

131 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:14:52pm

re: #123 Ericus58

"And what incentive then would remain for homeowners to pay the fee in the first place?"

Faced with paying $75 a year vs. Several thousand dollars would sure be an incentive ;

If voters in a county want a subscription-based service (fire fighting should not be one), that is their choice.
What should have been in place is the policy of covering the "what if" so that needless loss of property or even more imiportant - lives are not put at risk.

Or, crazy idea here, it could be a government service that doesn't need to or even attempt to make a profit, and is thus cheaper overall.

I know, that's crazy talk.

132 jayzee  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:14:53pm

Terrible that they let the house burn down, but I don't see how this is a conservative issue. The municipality that offers coverage for the subscription fee for the out of town, rural community has been doing so since 1990. The issue appears to be that Obion doesn't have it's own fire department, so a nearby city offers to do it for a charge (like they do for their residents in the form of taxes) until such time that Obion has been working on since 2008.

133 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:14:59pm

re: #108 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Exactly. This smells of a put up job, but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt. Think Progress is pretty honest.

134 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:15:56pm

re: #111 Rightwingconspirator


Judging by the rate of recidivism among release felons, the government has wildly inadequate motivation as well.

I'm assuming you're talking about felons released from public rather than private jails here, and that you understand how much of the US prison system is private. Yes, the public system has a large, but not as large problem, with recidivism.

Have you found a statistical advantage in recidivism for any kind of prison?

Yes. Any prison with rehabilitative programs has a better recidivism rate.


I'm not suggesting we get rid of the private prisons-- I'm suggesting we pay them based on recidivism rate.

135 Stanghazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:16:33pm

Bottom line, how could firefighters stand by and watch a house burn?

136 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:17:07pm

re: #135 Stanley Sea

Bottom line, how could firefighters stand by and watch a house burn?

They aren't firefighters. They are employees of a firefighting company.

There's a difference.

137 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:17:21pm

re: #128 EmmmieG

Das Jihadis est Kaput!

138 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:17:47pm

re: #135 Stanley Sea

Bottom line, how could firefighters stand by and watch a house burn?

Orders. I'm betting a lot of guys were kinda pissed.

139 brownbagj  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:17:54pm

re: #137 Killgore Trout
May they rest in pieces.

140 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:18:43pm

re: #123 Ericus58

"And what incentive then would remain for homeowners to pay the fee in the first place?"

Faced with paying $75 a year vs. Several thousand dollars would sure be an incentive ;

If voters in a county want a subscription-based service (fire fighting should not be one), that is their choice.
What should have been in place is the policy of covering the "what if" so that needless loss of property or even more imiportant - lives are not put at risk.

If voters in a county want to create a condition whereby their country spreads disease (cutting off all vaccinations, withholding basic health services)

is that their choice? Creating a hazard that affects other communities?

Allowing a fire to spread seems like a moral hazard for a society, that's why arson is such a big deal, because a big enough fire WILL spread if houses are close enough together

"Well, we let this fire burn because they didn't pay. Free market!"

"Yeah? And then the fire you allowed to burn then spread through that field and took out this entire development and then started a forest fire, killed five people including a couple public firefighters who aren't rank scum. You're under arrest for murder."

"BUT BUT BUT GROVER NORQUIST"

141 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:19:59pm

re: #134 Obdicut

Thats a good idea, outcome based accounting. Include wardens in gov prisons. Like Teachers. Satisfactory results-You get to keep the position. If not a different position in the syatem may be the thing to do. Perhaps retraining etc.

Requiring rehab similar to the gov prisons to get the deal would also make sense.

142 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:20:49pm

Something tells me if these pricks in tennessee were in southern California and pulled something like this during the brush fire season, they'd be in superjail

143 Stanghazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:21:39pm

re: #138 Decatur Deb

Orders. I'm betting a lot of guys were kinda pissed.

Following orders.

I hope they can sleep @ night. They probably can.

144 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:22:05pm

This started as a grass fire. It then hit the first house, where the fire fighters did nothing, it then moved towards a second house and only then did the fire fighters put it out, because that house had paid.

The second house would never have been in any danger if they had put out the grass fire in the first place!

145 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:22:15pm

re: #142 WindUpBird

Letting a fire burn when you can put it out is basically committing arson, as far as I'm concerned. That's as an ex-Northern Californian.

146 brownbagj  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:22:28pm

re: #141 Rightwingconspirator

I can see an issue with this in the fact that private prisons may then start to deny taking on prisions that have shown the tendency to reoffend. Or may only take prisoners with a hgih school education or wothing to that effect.

Somehow, someway there will be backdoor deals going on.

147 Stanghazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:22:42pm

re: #136 Fozzie Bear

They aren't firefighters. They are employees of a firefighting company.

There's a difference.

Bullshit in my mind. I bet they take in that hero worship as firefighters every damn day of their life.

148 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:23:17pm

BBL

149 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:23:45pm

re: #146 brownbagj

Given that they have exactly one customer-- the gubmint-- they can't really pick and choose. The government can exert near-total coercive power in writing the contracts.

And they should. That people profit off of imprisonment of people is pretty damn sick anyway.

150 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:23:47pm

re: #145 Obdicut

Letting a fire burn when you can put it out is basically committing arson, as far as I'm concerned. That's as an ex-Northern Californian.

You could charge the firemen with dereliction of duty, were they to have any duty to anyone other than the for-profit company contracted to provide services. Of course, they don't, so you can't. They are just doing their jobs as employees of a business.

151 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:24:04pm

Ah, the history of schools.

In the beginning, there was only private. You started with a dame school (primary school), usually an educated widow who taught the basics of reading and ciperhing. Next, you sent your son to a male-run school for the next level. Most people stopped there, if not at the dame school level, and apprenticed their sons.

After that, if you intended your child to go on, it was a higher level of school or a private tutor. The best students went on to the few colleges. The richest of the rich went back to England.

Benjamin Franklin was apprenticed when he was ten because his father didn't have the money for more schooling. (Being the 15th of 17 will do that to you.)

John Adams didn't want to go to Harvard, originally, so his father forced him to.

George Washington always felt undereducated, as his father had died to young to get him the more advanced education (college), so he made up for it with a lot of reading.

At the pioneers-settling-the-plains level, schools were built by a joint effort of the community, and then they all pitched in to pay the teacher, which their locally elected school board hired. (A good description of this process can be found in the writings of Laura Ingalls Wilder.)

High schools definitely cost for quite a long time (my great-great grandfather paid to attend one in the late 1870's).

My point here is that while schools have always been important in this country, they have not always been "free". I'm not advocating a return to private schools, I'm just pointing out that our current "free" public school system is a very recent thing, historically.

152 brownbagj  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:24:13pm

re: #147 Stanley Sea

Yep. I am sure they have the t-shirts and cool hats that they were everywhere so they can be thanked for being heroes.

153 brownbagj  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:24:47pm

re: #149 Obdicut

Agreed. I was just putting my sleazy hat on to figure out ways that they may try to game the system.

154 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:25:40pm

re: #144 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Oh no the grass did not pay the fee!

BTW it was a city department not a private one.

From TP
We asked the mayor of South Fulton if the chief could have made an exception. “Anybody that’s not in the city of South Fulton, it’s a service we offer, either they accept it or they don’t,” Mayor David Crocker said.

155 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:25:53pm

75 bucks. Odd considering how the nation spent billions of dollars to outfit every other municipality with SWAT teams outfitted to the teeth. Even in the middle of nowhere. Odd how we spend billions to house drug users in private and public prisons.

156 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:26:05pm

re: #147 Stanley Sea

Bullshit in my mind. I bet they take in that hero worship as firefighters every damn day of their life.

I , for one, welcome our new robot fire fighters.

157 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:26:26pm

re: #147 Stanley Sea

Bullshit in my mind. I bet they take in that hero worship as firefighters every damn day of their life.

Public servants deserve some recognition. These guys are just garden-variety whores in red shiny hats. They deserve nothing other than the derision reserved for whores.

158 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:26:45pm

re: #123 Ericus58

"And what incentive then would remain for homeowners to pay the fee in the first place?"

Faced with paying $75 a year vs. Several thousand dollars would sure be an incentive ;

If voters in a county want a subscription-based service (fire fighting should not be one), that is their choice.
What should have been in place is the policy of covering the "what if" so that needless loss of property or even more imiportant - lives are not put at risk.

"Most notorious was his acquisition of burning houses: when Crassus received word that a house was on fire, he would arrive and purchase the doomed property along with surrounding buildings for a modest sum, and then employ his army of 500 clients to put the fire out before much damage had been done. Crassus' clients employed the Roman method of firefighting—destroying the burning building to curtail the spread of the flames."

Factoid: This is the etymology for the secondary, materialistic definition of the word crass.

159 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:27:25pm

re: #156 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I , for one, welcome our new robot fire fighters.

Um, wiring in a fire? Try again.

160 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:27:49pm

re: #150 Fozzie Bear

I'm just talking about ethics, even, not legality.

If I'm out for a walk and I see a smoldering fire up against someone's house, and I see a garden hose, I'm going to put it out.

It's not even selfless of me. The community as a whole loses when anyone's property is destroyed. This guy is homeless now, and probably lost a lot of property in the fire. He might have to move, might not be able to keep his job.

161 brownbagj  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:28:02pm

re: #159 EmmmieG

I, for one, welcome our asbestos and water based overlords.

162 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:28:19pm

re: #154 Rightwingconspirator

That's even worse. That's the government acting like a private corporation.

The worst of two worlds.

163 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:29:30pm

re: #160 Obdicut

I'm just talking about ethics, even, not legality.

If I'm out for a walk and I see a smoldering fire up against someone's house, and I see a garden hose, I'm going to put it out.

It's not even selfless of me. The community as a whole loses when anyone's property is destroyed. This guy is homeless now, and probably lost a lot of property in the fire. He might have to move, might not be able to keep his job.

And i'm just driving home the point that the free market doesn't give a fuck about ethics. It can't afford to. It has to make a profit. Hence, why the free market makes sense for producing cars, coffee mugs, and toasters, but not for providing basic services.

164 gordon marock  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:30:11pm

Using anecdotes, particularly ones that are supposed to pull at your heart strings, to argue about the efficacy of the gov't vs. free market in delivering certain services is total bullshit. Next sob story, please.

165 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:30:18pm

re: #163 Fozzie Bear

This wasn't even the free market. This was the government attempting to use free market principles.

The fuckers.

166 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:30:47pm

re: #140 WindUpBird

Allowing a fire to spread seems like a moral hazard for a society, that's why arson is such a big deal, because a big enough fire WILL spread if houses are close enough together

This reminds me of certain analogies tossed about at the time of TARP/bailouts - putting out the "fire" of failing banks so they wouldn't take the entire financial system down with them.

Of course, most people understand why a literal fire spreads...so, if one continues with that analogy, the question becomes, why was the financial system allowed to be built on dry-brush derivatives beneath chain-smoking, ash-dropping hedge fund managers...

(this a whole other discussion, though.)

167 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:31:11pm

re: #159 EmmmieG

Um, wiring in a fire? Try again.

As opposed to human flesh in a fire?

Of course, the Brits, and Japanese might all be crazy.

Robotic firefighting team debuts

Tokyo FD invests in live saving robot

168 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:31:11pm

re: #164 gordon marock

Provide an alternate method of analyzing the situation, then.

169 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:31:36pm

re: #165 Obdicut

This wasn't even the free market. This was the government attempting to use free market principles.

The fuckers.

The government didn't do anything wrong. The voters wanted it to be smaller, so it became smaller. The people who bear the blame for this are the morons who voted for lower taxes without thinking they would have to give anything up.

170 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:31:36pm

re: #164 gordon marock

Stick it in your ear.

171 Max  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:31:46pm

Let me say this, to all the wingnuts and stalkers, Charles is not exaggerating.

I have told the Lizard Army here about my Paulian friend. While I try to refrain from talking about politics, whenever we do he always tries to convince me that private courts, police, and fire departments are the way to go.

He especially loves to push this book: The Privatization of Roads and Highways. It even has a chapter called "Road Socialism". I wish I were joking.

This is serious, and this anarcho-capitalist nonsense is trying to get its toe in the door. Watch your GOP candidates this time around, do not let the loons in.

172 gordon marock  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:32:23pm

re: #168 Obdicut

Provide an alternate method of analyzing the situation, then.

OK. If someone tells you that you won't get fire services unless you pay $75 and you don't pay, you may lose your house.

173 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:32:38pm

re: #164 gordon marock

Using anecdotes, particularly ones that are supposed to pull at your heart strings, to argue about the efficacy of the gov't vs. free market in delivering certain services is total bullshit. Next sob story, please.

This is reality, not a sob story. Cry me a river about your tax bill please. That's a sob story.

174 gordon marock  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:32:58pm

re: #170 Gus 802

Stick it in your ear.

Is that some type of anecdote?

175 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:33:18pm

re: #172 gordon marock

OK. If someone tells you that you won't get fire services unless you pay $75 and you don't pay, you may lose your house.

And when your neighbor doesn't pay, do they let his house burn down along with yours?

176 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:33:25pm

re: #174 gordon marock

Is that some type of anecdote?

It was an alternative to shove it.

177 brownbagj  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:34:08pm

re: #172 gordon marock

But this obviously put paying customers houses in danger. THis policy makes no sense.

178 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:34:14pm

re: #167 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

As opposed to human flesh in a fire?

Of course, the Brits, and Japanese might all be crazy.

Robotic firefighting team debuts

Tokyo FD invests in live saving robot

It would be cooler if they were steampunk.

Too bad steampunk is imaginary.

179 gordon marock  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:34:23pm

re: #176 Gus 802

It was an alternative to shove it.

in my ear?

180 JeffM70  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:34:37pm

This illustrates the grand failing of libertarianism, that in a free market it relies on people to do the right thing, like for example private businesses to not discriminate based on color. People don't always to the right thing, especially if it conflicts with their own interests. This was the worst of both worlds, as was pointed out, a tax-funded fire department acting like a private business.

181 celticdragon  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:34:52pm

re: #60 Locker

This is what happens when you allow vital services to be distributed based on who can pay the most. Health care, net neutrality, fire fighting, education, roads, etc all become "luxury" services for the wealth.

Exactly.

Of course, we all know that the wealthy deserve those things more than the rest of us, right?

People like you and me are moochers who didn't have the Galty fortitude to go out and become hedge fund managers and rampage through other losers portfolios.

We should be grateful for anything we get, since every good libertarian knows that there are winners and losers, and if you aren't in the top 5% winner bracket...well, you get the rest...

///

182 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:34:58pm

re: #178 EmmmieG

It would be cooler if they were steampunk.

Too bad steampunk is imaginary.

Plus, the fire could provide the heat energy needed to make steam to power the steampunk firefighters! Genius!

183 Ericus58  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:35:34pm

re: #131 Fozzie Bear

Or, crazy idea here, it could be a government service that doesn't need to or even attempt to make a profit, and is thus cheaper overall.

I know, that's crazy talk.

I"m not disagreeing on the point that fire fighting should NOT be a subscription-based service.

I'm only talking about the policy and how it's lacking in covering all situations.

184 brownbagj  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:35:36pm

What this company should have done is immediately send out a notice of all the people who did not pay for insurance so that their neighbors could hate them...instead of blaming the firefighters for waiting until a paying customers house started to burn.

/

Stupid.

185 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:35:37pm

re: #17 eclectic infidel

Just posted this to my FB page. Curious to see if the libertarians on my friend's list respond.

I will. I feel as sorry for these people as I do people who live in a flood plain and refuse to get flood insurance, none at all. When you take risks you run the chance of getting burned, these people got burned. Lesson learned, story over.

186 jayzee  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:35:51pm

re: #171 Max D. Reinhardt

Let me say this, to all the wingnuts and stalkers, Charles is not exaggerating.

I have told the Lizard Army here about my Paulian friend. While I try to refrain from talking about politics, whenever we do he always tries to convince me that private courts, police, and fire departments are the way to go.

He especially loves to push this book: The Privatization of Roads and Highways. It even has a chapter called "Road Socialism". I wish I were joking.

This is serious, and this anarcho-capitalist nonsense is trying to get its toe in the door. Watch your GOP candidates this time around, do not let the loons in.

It's not just the GOP. A lot of states have considered this because of the costs (usually pension costs) involved in maintaining various services. It is a horrible idea, but not a Republican one. Also, this fire department was not privatized. It is another city's fire department that offers services for a fee for non municipal, rural neighbors.

187 celticdragon  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:36:56pm

re: #164 gordon marock

Using anecdotes, particularly ones that are supposed to pull at your heart strings, to argue about the efficacy of the gov't vs. free market in delivering certain services is total bullshit. Next sob story, please.

What. The. Fuck.

188 Neutral President  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:37:08pm

re: #171 Max D. Reinhardt

Author: Dr. Walter Block, anarcho-capitalist and senior faculty at the Von Mises Institute... just as I said.

189 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:37:26pm

re: #171 Max D. Reinhardt

Let me say this, to all the wingnuts and stalkers, Charles is not exaggerating.

I have told the Lizard Army here about my Paulian friend. While I try to refrain from talking about politics, whenever we do he always tries to convince me that private courts, police, and fire departments are the way to go.

He especially loves to push this book: The Privatization of Roads and Highways. It even has a chapter called "Road Socialism". I wish I were joking.

This is serious, and this anarcho-capitalist nonsense is trying to get its toe in the door. Watch your GOP candidates this time around, do not let the loons in.

Indiana sold its toll road a few years ago to a private company. Instead of the state losing millions a year we now make millions that are spent upgrading county/state highways. Win-Win.

190 brownbagj  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:37:38pm

re: #185 RogueOne

In some ways I do agree, but to let the fire burn until the paying custoemr's house is on fire is a stupid policy.

I would be pissed at my private for hire FD if they waited for my house to start smoking.

191 Max  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:37:58pm

re: #42 avanti

It's not far from Sharon Angle's comments about health insurance covering autism. After all, she's not having more kids, why should she pay for those that do. Heck, I opposed the war in Iraq, why can't I deduct that from my taxes. / If I live in NYC and don't drive, why pay for interstate highways ?

Some libertarians, usually left-wing libertarians like Terroja Kincaid and Noam Chomsky, support that kind of voluntary taxation, where if you don't pay you don't get to use the services.

192 Ericus58  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:38:00pm

re: #140 WindUpBird

If voters in a county want to create a condition whereby their country spreads disease (cutting off all vaccinations, withholding basic health services)

is that their choice? Creating a hazard that affects other communities?

Allowing a fire to spread seems like a moral hazard for a society, that's why arson is such a big deal, because a big enough fire WILL spread if houses are close enough together

"Well, we let this fire burn because they didn't pay. Free market!"

"Yeah? And then the fire you allowed to burn then spread through that field and took out this entire development and then started a forest fire, killed five people including a couple public firefighters who aren't rank scum. You're under arrest for murder."

"BUT BUT BUT GROVER NORQUIST"

I'm sure you have been keeping up on all my points raised.
Am I mistaken for thinking you are trying to rope me into a Lib position that I don't espouse?

193 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:38:18pm

I'm sure ol' Mayor Crocker wouldn't think twice of spending city money for the police department to organize a "sting" operation to bust someone with an ounce of pot.

194 Linden Arden  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:38:23pm

All Fire Fighters were private in the 19th century and the first arrival would bill the homeowner for services.

That is where the tradition of Dalmatians came from. Rival firefighters would slash the tires on trucks and steal fire gear so the dogs were used as 24/7 sentries.

195 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:38:54pm

re: #190 brownbagj

In some ways I do agree, but to let the fire burn until the paying custoemr's house is on fire is a stupid policy.

I would be pissed at my private for hire FD if they waited for my house to start smoking.

I didn't say it was good policy just that I'll hold my compassion for someone who deserves it. People too cheap to pay $75/yr to keep their home protected don't deserve my time.

196 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:39:03pm

re: #146 brownbagj

I can see an issue with this in the fact that private prisons may then start to deny taking on prisions that have shown the tendency to reoffend. Or may only take prisoners with a hgih school education or wothing to that effect.

Somehow, someway there will be backdoor deals going on.

Maybe we could have a sytem of vouchers for prisoners from underperforming prisons to attend better prisons?
//

197 celticdragon  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:39:36pm

re: #194 Linden Arden

All Fire Fighters were private in the 19th century and the first arrival would bill the homeowner for services.

That is where the tradition of Dalmatians came from. Rival firefighters would slash the tires on trucks and steal fire gear so the dogs were used as 24/7 sentries.

They also set fires and stole everything they could get their hands on in the house.

Profit, baby... profit.

198 brownbagj  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:39:38pm

re: #196 rwdflynavy

Or a lottery.

//

199 brownbagj  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:40:28pm

re: #195 RogueOne

I can see that. THey wanted to have their cake and eat it too. I am mainly more concerned with the impact to innocent bystanders who did pay.

200 Max  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:40:46pm

re: #188 ArchangelMichael

Author: Dr. Walter Block, anarcho-capitalist and senior faculty at the Von Mises Institute... just as I said.

That place needs the walls re-padded. The only way Walter Block could have written an essay as ridiculous as "Road Socialism" was if he was ramming his head against the bare concrete.

201 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:41:08pm

I bet if some pot dealer who didn't pay for his fire protection and ended up having his stash on fire would get the fire department to put it out. So they can keep it as evidence and the stick him in a medieval jail for decades.

202 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:41:14pm

re: #196 rwdflynavy

Maybe we could have a sytem of vouchers for prisoners from underperforming prisons to attend better prisons?
//

Maybe bussing in inmates from other districts to raise test scores?

203 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:42:06pm

re: #202 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Maybe bussing in inmates from other districts to raise test scores?

Build magnet prisons in the bad parts of town to raise the property values.
//

204 jaunte  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:42:09pm

re: #184 brownbagj

What this company should have done is immediately send out a notice of all the people who did not pay for insurance so that their neighbors could hate them...instead of blaming the firefighters for waiting until a paying customers house started to burn.

Presumably a for-profit fire fighting operation will have excellent record keeping and never make a filing mistake...

205 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:42:12pm

re: #189 RogueOne

Indiana sold its toll road a few years ago to a private company. Instead of the state losing millions a year we now make millions that are spent upgrading county/state highways. Win-Win.

Ontario sold off a toll highway to a foreign corporation and all that resulted was the province losing out on a great revenue stream while the jerkward foreign corp jacked toll rates up to the stratosphere. I'll never forgive the right-wing political party responsible for that travesty.

206 brownbagj  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:42:18pm

re: #189 RogueOne

I would absolutely agree that there are many, many situations where privatization is better. I do want smaller government.

It just seems all logic gets thrown out the window in these discussions. It is either all government or all private.

There is a common sense middle that can be founf using cost/benefit/risk analysis.

But then, we would have no politicians to demonize.

207 celticdragon  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:42:30pm

re: #195 RogueOne

I didn't say it was good policy just that I'll hold my compassion for someone who deserves it. People too cheap to pay $75/yr to keep their home protected don't deserve my time.

WEhy in the hell should you have to pay 75$ for what is seen as a necessary community service eveywhere else?

This strikes me just like that suggested policy up in Wasilla, Alaska where rape victims would be charged for the cost of the rape kit and testing.

Fuck that. If this is what we come to, I will move.

208 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:42:32pm

re: #189 RogueOne

Indiana sold its toll road a few years ago to a private company. Instead of the state losing millions a year we now make millions that are spent upgrading county/state highways. Win-Win.

... except of course for the thousands of people whose daily commute now costs more than it did before. The ITR isn't just making money out of thin air. It is doing so because it raised tolls.

Profits aren't just some kind of magic bonus that comes from nowhere. They represent a form of inefficiency from the perspective of the people paying for the service. Now, instead of the state losing millions of taxpayer dollars every year, ITR takes in millions more from commuters. All that happened here was that the burden got shifted down the socio-economic ladder, as is always the case in these kinds of situations. The cost is the same. All that changed was the people who bear the cost.

209 Max  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:43:01pm

re: #180 JeffM70

This illustrates the grand failing of libertarianism, that in a free market it relies on people to do the right thing, like for example private businesses to not discriminate based on color. People don't always to the right thing, especially if it conflicts with their own interests. This was the worst of both worlds, as was pointed out, a tax-funded fire department acting like a private business.

Then again, the same goes for the government.

210 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:43:30pm

re: #195 RogueOne

I didn't say it was good policy just that I'll hold my compassion for someone who deserves it. People too cheap to pay $75/yr to keep their home protected don't deserve my time.

People too cheap to pay a similar amount more in taxes because "WAAAH MY TAXES ARE TOO HIGH" don't deserve to be called human.

211 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:43:38pm

re: #203 rwdflynavy

Build magnet prisons in the bad parts of town to raise the property values.
//

What we need are more home prisons, so the family can have more say in the inmate's rehabilitation program.

212 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:43:40pm

911 was is the nature of your emergency?

My house is on fire!

I'm sorry sir but your records indicate that you haven't paid your subscription fee. We're going to have to let your house burn down.

Well, my guns are on fire!

In that case sir we'll have an engine company at your house right away!

213 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:44:25pm

Different things are better done for different motivations.

Creating widgets is best done for a profit.

Banking is best done for a profit.*

Raising children is best done by those who are doing it for love.

Religion is best done by those who are doing it for love of God.

Teaching is best done by those who love learning, although some small profit incentive is not a bad idea here.

I'm pretty sure that mixing fire-fighting with a profit motive is just a bad idea. The hero-motivation is probably a better way to go.


*Loaning money to people because you feel sorry for them is a lose-lose proposition, because they won't be able to pay it back and you'll feel aggrieved and your bank will fail. If you feel sorry for someone, you can just give them your own private money.

214 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:44:51pm

re: #212 Gus 802

What is. Not was is.

215 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:45:23pm

re: #185 RogueOne

I will. I feel as sorry for these people as I do people who live in a flood plain and refuse to get flood insurance, none at all. When you take risks you run the chance of getting burned, these people got burned. Lesson learned, story over.

The point really isn't about whether or not the guy is cheap.

The point is that not putting out fires is a communally stupid decision.

If you are at a fire and have the means to put it out, you should do so.

From any perspective.

216 Linden Arden  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:45:36pm

re: #206 brownbagj

I would absolutely agree that there are many, many situations where privatization is better. I do want smaller government.

It just seems all logic gets thrown out the window in these discussions. It is either all government or all private.

Is the service vital for life?

Like power transmission and distribution was deemed something that could be heavily regulated and priced with PSC's long ago.

They were probably called socialists for doing that back then too.

217 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:45:40pm

re: #212 Gus 802

911 was is the nature of your emergency?

My house is on fire!

I'm sorry sir but your records indicate that you haven't paid your subscription fee. We're going to have to let your house burn down.

Well, my guns are on fire!

In that case sir we'll have an engine company at your house right away!

Maybe call 911 and report a gun crazed mad man has barricaded himself in the house, then when the cops show up and see the fire, they call the FD, it gets put out and the guy surrenders.

218 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:45:58pm

re: #5 eclectic infidel

Morally despicable. Laissez-faire? I'll pass.

French for, "Who gives a shit!"

219 brownbagj  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:46:25pm

re: #215 Obdicut

I cannot imagine being one of those pay for spray guys watching that house burn. Something inside them had to die a little bit in doing so.

220 Max  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:46:35pm

re: #189 RogueOne

Indiana sold its toll road a few years ago to a private company. Instead of the state losing millions a year we now make millions that are spent upgrading county/state highways. Win-Win.

Where I live, in Virginia, our last governor sold the Dulles toll road to a private company. Now to get to my house I either have to pay a $4:45 toll or I have to take an arduous detour.

I hate private roads, so much.

221 celticdragon  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:46:52pm

re: #88 jcbeckman

He only punched the Fire Chief so they'd arrest him and he would have a place to live,, since his cheapness let his house burn down...

What the heck kind of country is this where firemen watch people's houses burn down? What the heck is going on here???

Glenbeckistan is going on here.

Move along...nothing to see, folks...

222 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:46:56pm

re: #217 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Maybe call 911 and report a gun crazed mad man has barricaded himself in the house, then when the cops show up and see the fire, they call the FD, it gets put out and the guy surrenders.

Just tell them someone set your house on fire -- Muslims!!11ty

"We'll be their in a minute sir. SWAT team will arrive first."

[sound of chopper noise]

223 gordon marock  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:47:27pm

re: #212 Gus 802

911 was is the nature of your emergency?

My house is on fire!

I'm sorry sir but your records indicate that you haven't paid your subscription fee. We're going to have to let your house burn down.

Well, my guns are on fire!

In that case sir we'll have an engine company at your house right away!

So clever.

224 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:47:32pm

Damn, another typo. There.

225 dmon  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:47:36pm

I am a career Firefighter in Dayton, Oh. Just this morning at 3 a.m. an arsonist lit up three homes on the same block. Two adjoining houses also burned (1 to the ground). we used every piece of equipment in the city, called in mutual aide from 3 other jurisdictions, called in off duty firefighters to staff 4 additional pieces of equipment.

The cost to our department is a budget buster........ the question i have about about privatizing..... would a private company be willing to commit resources, to the point of taking a loss, because they have a duty to the citizens???

As a public service, we will throw as many resources as it takes to get the job done.....

226 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:47:49pm

re: #219 brownbagj

I cannot imagine being one of those pay for spray guys watching that house burn. Something inside them had to die a little bit in doing so.

Nothing a few beers, Glenn Beck and going to church on Sunday can't fix.
/

227 iossarian  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:47:56pm

re: #220 Max D. Reinhardt

Where I live, in Virginia, our last governor sold the Dulles toll road to a private company. Now to get to my house I either have to pay a $4:45 toll or I have to take an arduous detour.

I hate private roads, so much.

But something that used to cost millions of dollars now makes millions of dollars in profit! How can you not love something so majestically, magically revelatory of the true power of the free market!

228 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:47:59pm

re: #220 Max D. Reinhardt

So instead of win-win, as Rogue said, it might be better to say win-win-lose.

Win: The government, who saves money
Win: The corporation that owns the toll who makes money:
Lose: The people who use the road.

229 celticdragon  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:48:15pm

re: #219 brownbagj

I cannot imagine being one of those pay for spray guys watching that house burn. Something inside them had to die a little bit in doing so.

I would bet they were laughing and making snarky remarks about the stupid asshole who didn't pay his protection money service charge.

230 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:48:20pm

re: #220 Max D. Reinhardt

Where I live, in Virginia, our last governor sold the Dulles toll road to a private company. Now to get to my house I either have to pay a $4:45 toll or I have to take an arduous detour.

I hate private roads, so much.

Of course, how else are they going to make more in profits, and fulfill their fiduciary responsibility? Raising costs makes perfect sense. You have a captive customer base.

231 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:48:22pm

re: #224 Gus 802

Damn, another typo. There.

Just roll with them, goes much easier.

232 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:48:40pm

re: #231 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I hagree.

233 Max  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:48:54pm

re: #213 EmmmieG

Thank you, favorited, and well said.

234 HappyBenghazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:49:19pm

Somehow, I am reminded of the scene in Gangs of New York where William Tweed's fire company is fighting with another fire company and the house is burning down and the homeowner is like this is my house, do something and Tweed tells him to vote Tammany. Seriously what a bunch of assholes. it's not only morally wrong what they did but unsafe too since that fire easily could have spread.

235 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:50:18pm

People who think that privatization increases efficiency would make absolutely terrible businessmen. You are in it for profit, so what interest do you have in making it cheaper? None.

236 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:50:20pm

re: #222 Gus 802

Just tell them someone set your house on fire -- Muslims!!11ty

"We'll be their in a minute sir. SWAT team will arrive first."

[sound of chopper noise]

I saw a black helicopter yesterday.

Of course, I live next to an airport, but I'm sure it was something more sinister than traffic reports.

237 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:50:49pm

re: #34 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

What is he? A fricking communist?!
/

Worse, a British knight.

238 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:50:50pm

re: #223 gordon marock

So clever.

Yep. Can't get a well regulated militia go up in flames.

//

239 Max  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:51:21pm

re: #227 iossarian

But something that used to cost millions of dollars now makes millions of dollars in profit! How can you not love something so majestically, magically revelatory of the true power of the free market!

Don't get me wrong, I am a red-blooded American capitalists, and some of the comments on this thread have made me a little uncomfortable, but I am perfectly content with paying some higher taxes to keep a free (or un-priced) road at the end of my driveway.

240 JeffM70  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:51:37pm

re: #199 brownbagj

That's what can happen in a society that prizes free market solutions and individual freedom. You have to rely on people to do what is rre: #209 Max D. Reinhardt

Then again, the same goes for the government.

That's true, but in the case of emergency services, the local government's conflict of interest is virtually non-existent. Everybody pays taxes for equal protection, thus removing the financial conflict of interest of whether or not to help a non-customer.

241 brownbagj  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:52:15pm

re: #235 Fozzie Bear

I would disagree there. You have lots of reasons to make it cheaper. Now, what you charge for it is another matter entirely.

242 elizajane  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:52:40pm

re: #106 EmmmieG

Benjamin Franklin invented:

The lightning rod, which was so successful nobody even thinks about the fact their home has one. They just take it for granted that that we are safe from thunderstorms in our own homes, without bothering to figure out why.

The Franklin Stove, which has saved millions of women from burning to death over the last 200 years. (Cooking with long skirts in front of an open fire was very hazardous.)

The lending library. Seriously. The first one was a small, members-only subscription library, but he and Andrew Carnegie share the praise for our national library system.

The fire department. Dec 7, 1736. Volunteers. Every home was mandated to have a fire-fighting bucket inside.

Was MANDATED to have a bucket! But that's, that's communism!

Put Ben Franklin in the woodshed for Failed Founding Fathers, along with Thomas Jefferson.

243 dmon  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:52:41pm

BTW...... These "Firefighters" in the story are pieces of crap..... they couldnt carry our boots for us

244 gordon marock  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:52:42pm

re: #238 Gus 802

Yep. Can't get a well regulated militia go up in flames.

//

Gus, I was being sarcastic. You are not clever, but I get it, you don't like guns or something.

245 brownbagj  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:52:51pm

re: #236 EmmmieG

Did it make a whirring noise? I must have seen the same one.

246 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:53:44pm

re: #244 gordon marock

Gus, I was being sarcastic. You are not clever, but I get it, you don't like guns or something.

Nah. I have a bug up my ass today and I just don't like you.

247 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:54:03pm

re: #126 WindUpBird

"Pay to spray" should be fucking illegal illegal illegal ILLEGAL

Think about what would happen if that fire spread to other houses

Libertarianism is actually pretty disgusting and unworkable when you look at the reality of it

Anything in a pure form is pretty disgusting and unworkable when you look at the reality of it. Look at the extreme you see with a pure socialism, or a pure capitalism, or a pure theocracy. Any philosophical or political movement taken in it's purest form does not work. Period. Full Stop.

I know libertarianism is a great whipping boy right now. Particularly with the most well known versions being the Ron Paul Ran Paul/Tea Party brand version (which seems much more like something you'd get from the Constitution Party than the Libertarians), but if you take the philosophy and add some pragmatic and realistic understanding of how people and the world works, You'll end up with what I think is a very reasonable and tolerant form of government.

248 gordon marock  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:54:10pm

re: #235 Fozzie Bear

People who think that privatization increases efficiency would make absolutely terrible businessmen. You are in it for profit, so what interest do you have in making it cheaper? None.

Businesses compete on price to get customers and increase profit. Also, good service keeps customers, even if the price is sometimes higher.

249 Stanghazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:54:19pm

re: #243 dmon

BTW... These "Firefighters" in the story are pieces of crap... they couldnt carry our boots for us

Exactly. Thanks for posting your view.

250 gordon marock  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:54:46pm

re: #246 Gus 802

Nah. I have a bug up my ass today and I just don't like you.

Now that is a comment I can't find fault with.

251 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:55:18pm

re: #235 Fozzie Bear

People who think that privatization increases efficiency would make absolutely terrible businessmen. You are in it for profit, so what interest do you have in making it cheaper? None.

Indianapolis privatized half of its public services years ago. We saved money and get better service. Where do you get the case studies that show union city employees perform more efficiently than private/for profit companies?

252 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:55:23pm

re: #241 brownbagj

I would disagree there. You have lots of reasons to make it cheaper. Now, what you charge for it is another matter entirely.

Cheaper to the end-user, I mean. Of course, it is in every for-profit company's best interests to make the service cheaper in terms of how much is spend to render the service, while raising the fee as high as the market will bear. In the case of fee-for-service firefighting, you can get to any price below the value of the remaining portion of the home before the cost of the service outweighs the value of the service.

In other words, Crassus' plan makes perfect sense to a libertarian. He's just fulfilling his own rational self interest. *Everybody wins!

* Everybody does not include anybody but Crassus.

253 Ojoe  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:56:37pm

THe word conservative takes a beating here.

254 subsailor68  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:56:46pm

There are a couple of issues with the TP story that seem to be in conflict with the local account they linked to in their story.

First, the property was in Obion County, not the city of South Fulton. There is no indication in the linked story that the fire department is a private company (the story uses the term "local fire department").

The story notes that the city of Fulton offers fire service outside city limits, but charges an annual fee for doing so. That's not necessarily an unreasonable position, if the fact is that city residents receive the service via taxes, while county residents - not subject to city taxes - are required to pay an annual subscription.

It's possible that the real issue here is the unwillingness of the county (Obion) government to contract with the city for fire service - which one would expect would be paid for by taxing county residents via the county government and using those funds to contract with the city.

If that's the case, one would expect county commissioners to revisit their policy. It may be unreasonable to hold the city responsible - as it would be their citizens/taxpayers funding fire service for those outside the city who have no tax liability.

That said, I agree with the posters who raised the issue of moral hazard. Once the department responded, they had a moral obligation to use their expertise to put out the fire, and deal with the legal/funding issues after the fact.

255 LotharBot  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:56:54pm

re: #93 Fozzie Bear

If they can just bill you after the fact, nobody will pay.

If they bill you the subscription fee after the fact, nobody will pay.

If they bill you the full cost after the fact, then it becomes a cost-benefit / risk analysis calculation as to whether or not you subscribe. Maybe $75/year is a good enough price that 99% of people will subscribe; maybe it's so expensive that nobody will subscribe. It's all a matter of what you charge for the subscription vs the one-time usage.

Obviously, the fire company in this particular story had sucky policies, and therefore they let someone's house burn down. The fact that this particular department sucks does not prove that it can't be done well, though. (IMO fire protection is one of the few things that shouldn't be privatized, but my opinion that it *shouldn't be* doesn't mean it *couldn't be* done well.)

256 Max  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:57:22pm

re: #235 Fozzie Bear

People who think that privatization increases efficiency would make absolutely terrible businessmen. You are in it for profit, so what interest do you have in making it cheaper? None.

Heh?

257 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:57:47pm

re: #253 Ojoe

THe word conservative takes a beating here.

Given the current people touting themselves as such, they deserve it.

258 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:58:28pm

re: #248 gordon marock

Businesses compete on price to get customers and increase profit. Also, good service keeps customers, even if the price is sometimes higher.

Businesses also charge as much as they can without exceeding the price that the market will bear. Firefighting is very expensive. The value of the item which the firefighter protects (homes) is very high. The market could and would bear a very, very high price indeed were firefighting truly a fee-for-service industry.

I feel like you are trying to construct a strawman for me to attack. Your argument is tacitly absurd.

259 wrenchwench  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:59:33pm

re: #247 bloodstar

but if you take the philosophy and add some pragmatic and realistic understanding of how people and the world works

I've never seen that.

260 Ojoe  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:59:41pm

We are not in this life to figure every last cost to the ultimate mil & then to portion them out, pay exactly, and sit in our socio-fugic isolations.

261 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 12:59:56pm

re: #254 subsailor68

Exactly. A homeowner who doesn't live in the city or pay city taxes expected a service bought and paid for by others for free. This is a lesson not in privatization. When you don't pay for something you get what you pay for, which is nothing much.

262 JeffM70  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:00:23pm

re: #235 Fozzie Bear

People who think that privatization increases efficiency would make absolutely terrible businessmen. You are in it for profit, so what interest do you have in making it cheaper? None.

If said private business is a monopoly, then the interest is minimal. But if you have competitors, the interest is great.

263 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:00:32pm

re: #251 RogueOne

Indianapolis privatized half of its public services years ago. We saved money and get better service. Where do you get the case studies that show union city employees perform more efficiently than private/for profit companies?

The agreement also does not guarantee the safety and quality of the water, since there were no metrics to measure the quality of the water against any standards.

264 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:00:44pm

re: #261 RogueOne

Exactly. A homeowner who doesn't live in the city or pay city taxes expected a service bought and paid for by others for free. This is a lesson not in privatization. When you don't pay for something you get what you pay for, which is nothing much.

Any reason you ignored his final paragraph?

265 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:00:48pm

Reid Ad Was False -- Because It Quoted Angle!

The Reid ad was based on Angle's statements about her past record and her current platform. But as the Sun discovered, Angle's past record is quite the opposite of how it's been represented -- she never filed the mandate-repeal bill, and actually supported various mandates:

An exhaustive search of Angle's record as a four-term state legislator turns up no legislation to repeal the dozens of state mandates requiring insurers to cover such things as mammograms, osteoporosis and autism and several experimental cancer treatments.

Yet during her time in the Legislature, Angle proposed no fewer than five laws that would have required insurance companies to cover specific conditions, undermining her persona as an ideologically pure conservative who relentlessly pursues limited government policies.

She co-sponsored a bill to require insurance companies cover mammograms and another bill, which she later voted against, to cover osteoporosis treatment. She co-sponsored legislation that would have required an insurance company to continue covering the treatment of a patient if the company's contract with the provider was canceled before the treatment was completed.In fact, some of Angle's actual proposals in the Nevada legislature were to the left of the new health care law. For example, she proposed requiring insurance companies to carry the adult children of policyholder up until age 30, four years beyond the new law's age requirement of 26. She also would have required insurance companies to cover policyholders' elderly parents, if the parents' incomes were below the federal poverty limit.

The Angle campaign reacted quickly to this discrepancy -- by slamming the Reid campaign for airing a false ad, which was of course based on Angle's own claims. "Reid's campaign made a false ad, they have no evidence of the bill they reference," spokesman Jarrod Agen said in an email. "Obviously, they are lying again."

266 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:01:37pm

re: #261 RogueOne

Exactly. A homeowner who doesn't live in the city or pay city taxes expected a service bought and paid for by others for free. This is a lesson not in privatization. When you don't pay for something you get what you pay for, which is nothing much.

What are we going to do then? Treat American citizens like pay-go entities? Are we going to run a credit check before we provide any service to our citizenry?

267 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:01:49pm

re: #258 Fozzie Bear

I feel like you are trying to construct a strawman for me to attack. Your argument is tacitly absurd.

Hmmm.. Strawman in a fire is also a bad idea.

Maybe you could attack the tin man instead?

268 celticdragon  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:01:49pm

re: #247 bloodstar

Anything in a pure form is pretty disgusting and unworkable when you look at the reality of it. Look at the extreme you see with a pure socialism, or a pure capitalism, or a pure theocracy. Any philosophical or political movement taken in it's purest form does not work. Period. Full Stop.

I know libertarianism is a great whipping boy right now. Particularly with the most well known versions being the Ron Paul Ran Paul/Tea Party brand version (which seems much more like something you'd get from the Constitution Party than the Libertarians), but if you take the philosophy and add some pragmatic and realistic understanding of how people and the world works, You'll end up with what I think is a very reasonable and tolerant form of government.

Maybe, but that isn't how fringe movements tend to roll, is it now?

We have seen what happens to financial markets (and just about everything else at some point in our history) when they are allowed to be under regulated and "self policing".

Read about private orphanages in the 19th century, child labor, company scrip with company stores, canned meat that killed more American soldiers than the enemy did in the Spanish American War...and so on.

We tried "market based solutions", and we get fucked every time.

What is the definition of insanity according to Einstein?

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".

269 dmon  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:01:51pm

Privatization of some local services would probably be more efficient. Safety services is a whole other issue.

A private company's obligation is to it's stockholders. When the "Big one" happens, I really doubt the private would be willing to spend itself into bankruptcy, since it's duty isn't to the effected citizens in the first place.

270 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:02:51pm

re: #216 Linden Arden

Is the service vital for life?

Like power transmission and distribution was deemed something that could be heavily regulated and priced with PSC's long ago.

They were probably called socialists for doing that back then too.

Hell, when the mayor of Paris, France, introduced garbage pickup in the late 19th Century all kinds of heads exploded.

"How dare he force us to pick up after ourselves? We have a right to leave rotting waste on our property! And, and higher taxes!"
Eugène Puobelle

271 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:02:57pm

re: #262 JeffM70

If said private business is a monopoly, then the interest is minimal. But if you have competitors, the interest is great.

When you are a firehouse, all potential customers who are closer to you than they are to other firehouses are your monopolized customer base.

You don't exactly get to shop around when seconds count. You get the service from the closest firehouse, because if you don't, there won't be anything left to put out.

272 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:03:32pm

So if there's a forest fire and the firefighters run into a non-payee house that's ablaze they let it burn down? Let me see how well letting houses go on fire because people don't pay and then watch the fire spread in neighborhoods.

273 gordon marock  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:04:05pm

re: #258 Fozzie Bear

Businesses also charge as much as they can without exceeding the price that the market will bear. Firefighting is very expensive. The value of the item which the firefighter protects (homes) is very high. The market could and would bear a very, very high price indeed were firefighting truly a fee-for-service industry.

I feel like you are trying to construct a strawman for me to attack. Your argument is tacitly absurd.

The straw man was your statement that businesses have no incentive to make things cheaper.

274 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:04:05pm

re: #179 gordon marock

in my ear?

No, up the backside and sideways.

275 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:04:52pm

OT-sorry. The fire alarm just went off in the entire plaza where I work. Fire trucks everywhere. Alarms. Nice Monday, eh? BB tonight. I hope.

276 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:05:12pm

House A catches fire. Fire department does not respond. House B eventually catches fire because they did not respond to House A because he didn't pay his fee.

I'm thinking of the Hippocratic Oath right now.

277 gordon marock  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:05:31pm

re: #274 wlewisiii

No, up the backside and sideways.

I sense anger.

278 jayzee  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:05:43pm

re: #221 celticdragon

Glenbeckistan is going on here.

Move along...nothing to see, folks...

It's been this way since 1990. It is not the result of privatization. The South Fulton FD is not private. What happened was horrible, but not the result of privatization.

279 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:05:50pm

re: #273 gordon marock

The straw man was your statement that businesses have no incentive to make things cheaper.

You don't know what a straw man is, do you? It's not an incorrect statement. It's a purposefully weak opposition position.

So, sorry, that wasn't a straw man.

A monopolist business-- which a fire department would be, and most utilities generally are-- have no incentive to make things cheaper.

280 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:06:27pm

re: #263 goddamnedfrank

Peoples World, really? The union will still gets its chance, just like they did last time, to continue to work at the water dept. Tell Peoples World to relax.

Indianapolis Water Works has been privately owned since 2002, the water quality remains fine and costs are lower. You might notice that we semi-sold it to a foreign country even, GASP! I can't prove it but they sound French.

[Link: www.indianapoliswater.com...]

[Link: www.veoliawater.com...]

281 iossarian  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:06:28pm

re: #266 Gus 802

What are we going to do then? Treat American citizens like pay-go entities? Are we going to run a credit check before we provide any service to our citizenry?

That is exactly the plan.

282 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:06:38pm

re: #275 Cannadian Club Akbar

OT-sorry. The fire alarm just went off in the entire plaza where I work. Fire trucks everywhere. Alarms. Nice Monday, eh? BB tonight. I hope.

Wait. I'm kinda on topic. Sweet!! See ya'll tonighht.

283 wrenchwench  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:06:44pm

re: #275 Cannadian Club Akbar

OT-sorry. The fire alarm just went off in the entire plaza where I work. Fire trucks everywhere. Alarms. Nice Monday, eh? BB tonight. I hope.

But I thought the stoves were down? Don't you need some fire?

284 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:06:59pm

re: #280 RogueOne

How do you know the quality remains fine?

285 celticdragon  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:07:07pm

re: #265 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And the campaign actually attacked Reid for quoting Sharron Angle making false claims.

Welcome to the idiocracy.

Jello Biafra was right.

286 HappyBenghazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:07:17pm

re: #276 Gus 802

House A catches fire. Fire department does not respond. House B eventually catches fire because they did not respond to House A because he didn't pay his fee.

I'm thinking of the Hippocratic Oath right now.

Yes, this is what I was thinking about too.

287 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:07:17pm

Next thing you know we won't be treating people with infectious diseases because "they didn't pay their fee." No wait. We already do that.

288 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:07:31pm

re: #273 gordon marock

The straw man was your statement that businesses have no incentive to make things cheaper.

In a de-facto monopolized industry such as firefighting, there is no incentive to keep prices down at all. The only incentive is to get there before the other fire company.

In other words, whoever is closest gets there first, and charges anything up one dollar less than the value of the remaining portion of the home, wins.

Businesses such as this have no incentive to reduce the cost to the customer, but they sure as hell have an incentive to reduce the cost to themselves. The difference between the two is their profit, after all.

Businesses charge what the market will bear. In the firefighting "market" that would be a very high price indeed.

289 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:07:39pm

re: #283 wrenchwench

But I thought the stoves were down? Don't you need some fire?

Ovens.

290 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:08:07pm

re: #264 Obdicut

Any reason you ignored his final paragraph?

Who says I ignored anything? This isn't a story about privatization. This is a story about a county homeowner who made a judgement call that bit him in the ass. It's sad but to try to blame privatization policies for this happening is more than just a little stretch.

291 HappyBenghazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:08:20pm

re: #287 Gus 802

Next thing you know we won't be treating people with infectious diseases because "they didn't pay their fee." No wait. We already do that.

Which is stupid since infectious diseases are well infectious. I mean to me this is common sense. You put out that fire so it doesn't spread.

292 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:08:57pm

out.

293 Max  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:09:03pm

re: #287 Gus 802

Next thing you know we won't be treating people with infectious diseases because "they didn't pay their fee." No wait. We already do that.

You can go into any emergency room in the US and get care. The Supreme Court ruled that an ER can't turn anyone away.

294 iossarian  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:09:16pm

re: #278 jayzee

It's been this way since 1990. It is not the result of privatization. The South Fulton FD is not private. What happened was horrible, but not the result of privatization.

It seems it's a consequence of that other aspect of American tax-hatred: people not wanting to live in certain established towns (because of taxes) but quite happy to live in less-regulated townships just outside the towns, avoid the taxes, and still drive into the towns to take advantage of the wonderful amenities that the towns are able to provide.

It's what killed Detroit and St. Louis, among other places.

295 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:09:24pm

re: #291 HappyWarrior

Which is stupid since infectious diseases are well infectious. I mean to me this is common sense. You put out that fire so it doesn't spread.

I am reminded of Huckabee's recent comments on something similar to this.

296 Max  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:09:29pm

re: #291 HappyWarrior

Which is stupid since infectious diseases are well infectious. I mean to me this is common sense. You put out that fire so it doesn't spread.

Umm, mandatory vaccinations?

297 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:09:57pm

Christine O'Donnell on US-China relations circa 2006;

She said China had a "carefully thought out and strategic plan to take over America" and accused one opponent of appeasement for suggesting that the two countries were economically dependent and should find a way to be allies.

"That doesn't work," she said. "There's much I want to say. I wish I wasn't privy to some of the classified information that I am privy to."

"A country that forces women to have abortions and mandates that you can only have one child and will not allow you the freedom to read the Bible, you think they can be our friend?" she asked. "We have to look at our history and realize that if they pretend to be our friend it's because they've got something up their sleeve."

298 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:10:28pm

re: #290 RogueOne

Who says I ignored anything? This isn't a story about privatization. This is a story about a county homeowner who made a judgement call that bit him in the ass. It's sad but to try to blame privatization policies for this happening is more than just a little stretch.

The final paragraph wasn't about privatization, Rogue, so why the hell are you bringing it up?

Lots of other people-- including me-- have already noticed that this was a government problem, not a privatization one. However, it is still a governmental agency acting as though it were a private company. The worst, as I said, of both worlds.

Now, you want to give yourself another shot at reading Subsailor68's final paragraph again?

299 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:10:52pm

re: #293 Max D. Reinhardt

You can go into any emergency room in the US and get care. The Supreme Court ruled that an ER can't turn anyone away.

You only get emergency treatment. All they have to do is stabilize you and send you home. Once you have good vital signs they send you packing. The SCOTUS did not say anything about providing long term treatment. Basically it means they treat the acute symptoms.

300 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:11:40pm

re: #266 Gus 802

What are we going to do then? Treat American citizens like pay-go entities? Are we going to run a credit check before we provide any service to our citizenry?

I don't know, maybe he should take this up with the county he lives in before we turn fire protection into a federal entity? He could have, if he chose, beefed up his fire protection by paying a neighboring city $75 but he chose to risk it. He made his choice and he lost. It's simple. Should the city be forced to provide coverage for the rest of the county that doesn't pay local city taxes? If your place starts to burn are they responsible for not being able to make it to Denver from TN in time? Lets try to be realistic here. He didn't pay for extra coverage, he gambled and lost. it's simple.

301 iossarian  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:11:41pm

re: #293 Max D. Reinhardt

You can go into any emergency room in the US and get care. The Supreme Court ruled that an ER can't turn anyone away.

Not disagreeing with your point, but I would like to add that once you decide that everyone gets ER care (as in the decision you mention), it is far more economically efficient to go to a national system that allows preventative care etc.

It's basically the exact same economic rationale as applies in firefighting. What you lose to free riders you more than make up in economies of scale and herd immunity.

302 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:11:55pm

re: #296 Max D. Reinhardt

Umm, mandatory vaccinations?

You can be excused from receiving "mandatory" vaccinations based on religious or personal reasons.

303 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:11:59pm

I don't feel like re-fighting health care today, but inoculations are free in most places, and if you show up at the emergency room you will be treated, period.

(Saw a really interesting article a few years back about a hospital that had a recurring homeless patient. He would call 911 from a pay phone and complain of chest pains. The ambulance had to pick him up, the hospital had to run tests that go with chest pains, etc.

He had run up a quarter million dollars without actually needing health care.

They had decided to make his visits less fun by putting him in an out-of-way room, not going by to say hi--they all knew him--not offering him a sandwich, etc. Not treating him was not an option they could legally explore.)

304 st. louisville cards  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:12:03pm

re: #48 wrenchwench

But you can use it as an example of the problems one runs into when trying to make "libertarianism" work.

Or it can be used as an example of how people mooch off the dole when they have the means to support themselves.
This homeowner could afford the $75, but chose not to do it because he figured they'd save his place either way.
$75 a year for fire protection...I'd say this moron deserves to lose this stuff, sorry but skip cable for a month and pay your fire protection. The article states that these people were contacted multiple times, multiple ways and they turned down the service. It is their own fault, and since no one was injured, I have no sympathy for them.

305 Neutral President  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:12:18pm

re: #247 bloodstar

Anything in a pure form is pretty disgusting and unworkable when you look at the reality of it. Look at the extreme you see with a pure socialism, or a pure capitalism, or a pure theocracy. Any philosophical or political movement taken in it's purest form does not work. Period. Full Stop.

I know libertarianism is a great whipping boy right now. Particularly with the most well known versions being the Ron Paul Ran Paul/Tea Party brand version (which seems much more like something you'd get from the Constitution Party than the Libertarians), but if you take the philosophy and add some pragmatic and realistic understanding of how people and the world works, You'll end up with what I think is a very reasonable and tolerant form of government.

Any political philosophy created by humans is by definition flawed because no one is perfect or omniscient. If you try to keep logical consistency within the philosophy in the real world you will quickly run into breaking points. This is why pure capitalism doesn't work, why communism doesn't work, and why Keynesian economics doesn't always work either. Real world application of any system requires constant tweaking and exceptions to the rule. Until humans are "perfect" (i.e. never) this will be the case.

306 JamesWI  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:12:28pm

re: #100 pharmmajor

If the fee paid up front was a lower cost than what you would pay after service without the fee, that would be an incentive.

It seems to be hard enough to convince many people of this same sort of incentive when it comes to health insurance, something it is almost guaranteed you will need at some point (unless you are just filthy rich and can pay out of pocket).

How much of an incentive do you think that would provide for something much, much less likely - needing the fire department to save your home from burning down?

I don't know anyone else here and their experiences with fires, but I personally know of exactly one person who actually needed the Fire Department to put out a fire. We were freshmen in high school, and this guy's older brother decided to skip school on 4/20 and host a daytime party at his house. Apparently they must have been grilling on a balcony or wooden patio, because the grill tipped over and the house burned down. (The parents were the stereotypical lenient hippies, with all the kids becoming pot heads by the time they got to high school, but I can only imagine the reaction for that one . . . )

Beyond that, only the tangential dealings with the FD - Fire trucks coming to my college dorm one year because a badly burnt popcorn bag set off the dorm-wide fire alarm, older neighbor calling because of a small, controlled grease fire on the stove, etc. If millions of people will forgo health insurance altogether, or only the get the cheapest, most useless policies available, because they don't think they'll need it, how many people do you think will pay for the fire department when, statistically speaking, it is almost certain they won't ever actually need them to keep their house from burning down?

307 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:12:50pm

re: #280 RogueOne

Peoples World, really? The union will still gets its chance, just like they did last time, to continue to work at the water dept. Tell Peoples World to relax.

Indianapolis Water Works has been privately owned since 2002, the water quality remains fine and costs are lower. You might notice that we semi-sold it to a foreign country even, GASP! I can't prove it but they sound French.

[Link: www.indianapoliswater.com...]

[Link: www.veoliawater.com...]

Of course, they were recently caught falsifying water quality reports. They cut corners, and people drank unacceptable amounts E. Coli for years.

What a shocker. A public utility, privatized, cuts corners and jeopardizes the safety of the public. Gee, never could have seen that one coming. Any other great success stories, Rogue?

308 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:12:53pm

re: #284 Obdicut

How do you know the quality remains fine?

I drink it? I know it's handled by foreigners but it's still fine. What do you have against foreigners?

309 iossarian  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:12:58pm

re: #300 RogueOne

I don't know, maybe he should take this up with the county he lives in before we turn fire protection into a federal entity? He could have, if he chose, beefed up his fire protection by paying a neighboring city $75 but he chose to risk it. He made his choice and he lost. It's simple. Should the city be forced to provide coverage for the rest of the county that doesn't pay local city taxes? If your place starts to burn are they responsible for not being able to make it to Denver from TN in time? Lets try to be realistic here. He didn't pay for extra coverage, he gambled and lost. it's simple.

Would your assessment of the situation change if the fire had spread to a neighboring house and killed some people who had paid the fee?

310 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:13:09pm

re: #304 st. louisville cards

This homeowner could afford the $75, but chose not to do it because he figured they'd save his place either way.

Or maybe he didn't even understand or hadn't heard of the policy.

Or maybe he did pay, but the check got lost in the mail.

311 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:13:15pm

re: #306 JamesWI

I'm not sure which of the libertarians here was totally arguing against health insurance, I think it was hiker

312 HappyBenghazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:13:28pm

re: #296 Max D. Reinhardt

Umm, mandatory vaccinations?


Plenty of containgous diseases that don't have vaccines.

313 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:13:31pm

re: #308 RogueOne

I drink it? I know it's handled by foreigners but it's still fine. What do you have against foreigners?

Man, and you call me naive.

314 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:13:33pm

re: #284 Obdicut

How do you know the quality remains fine?

Of course, it doesn't. Read my 307.

315 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:13:42pm

re: #300 RogueOne

I don't know, maybe he should take this up with the county he lives in before we turn fire protection into a federal entity? He could have, if he chose, beefed up his fire protection by paying a neighboring city $75 but he chose to risk it. He made his choice and he lost. It's simple. Should the city be forced to provide coverage for the rest of the county that doesn't pay local city taxes? If your place starts to burn are they responsible for not being able to make it to Denver from TN in time? Lets try to be realistic here. He didn't pay for extra coverage, he gambled and lost. it's simple.

I'm not looking at money. I'm looking at a bunch of PEOPLE that just stood around and watched a house burn down. I'm looking at the morality and ethics in this.

316 Varek Raith  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:13:55pm

re: #304 st. louisville cards

Yeah, whatever.
Why stop there?
Just pay your police protection.
And if you can't afford the ambulance fee?
Too bad.

317 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:14:08pm

re: #308 RogueOne

I drink it? I know it's handled by foreigners but it's still fine. What do you have against foreigners?

wait, you can taste e coli? :D

318 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:14:38pm

re: #297 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Christine O'Donnell on US-China relations circa 2006;

"A country that forces women to have abortions and mandates that you can only have one child and will not allow you the freedom to read the Bible, you think they can be our friend?" she asked. "We have to look at our history and realize that if they pretend to be our friend it's because they've got something up their sleeve."

Sounds like Christine O'Donnell is extremely terrified of Chinese people.

319 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:14:43pm

re: #308 RogueOne

I drink it? I know it's handled by foreigners but it's still fine. What do you have against foreigners?

The consonant to vowel dispersal in surnames upsets my obsessive compulsive disorder.

320 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:14:43pm

re: #300 RogueOne

How do you know he was adequately informed of this policy?

Once the firefighters responded, how do you justify them not putting out the fire?

321 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:14:49pm

re: #298 Obdicut

The final paragraph wasn't about privatization, Rogue, so why the hell are you bringing it up?

Lots of other people-- including me-- have already noticed that this was a government problem, not a privatization one. However, it is still a governmental agency acting as though it were a private company. The worst, as I said, of both worlds.

Now, you want to give yourself another shot at reading Subsailor68's final paragraph again?

They're a governmental agency that takes care of its taxpayers that freelances as a private organization taking care of paying members outside its jurisdiction. What makes you think you have the right to a service you haven't paid for?

322 wrenchwench  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:15:03pm

re: #304 st. louisville cards

Or it can be used as an example of how people mooch off the dole when they have the means to support themselves.
This homeowner could afford the $75, but chose not to do it because he figured they'd save his place either way.
$75 a year for fire protection...I'd say this moron deserves to lose this stuff, sorry but skip cable for a month and pay your fire protection. The article states that these people were contacted multiple times, multiple ways and they turned down the service. It is their own fault, and since no one was injured, I have no sympathy for them.

I'd say "and" instead of "or" at the beginning.

And I think it's a lousy system, so I do still have sympathy for the guy.

323 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:15:13pm

re: #315 Gus 802

I'm not looking at money. I'm looking at a bunch of PEOPLE that just stood around and watched a house burn down. I'm looking at the morality and ethics in this.

Shit like THIS is how a civilization crumbles. When we as a society think this is okay.

Extreme anti-government ideology that feeds into apathy and suspicion about your fellow man, ahoy!

324 HappyBenghazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:15:19pm

re: #316 Varek Raith

Yeah, whatever.
Why stop there?
Just pay your police protection.
And if you can't afford the ambulance fee?
Too bad.

It's the Henry Hill principle, "fuck you, pay me." My big issue with how the firefighters responded is that this fire easily could have spread. It's unsafe first and foremost.

325 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:15:23pm

If I run into a person with a gunshot wound to the chest while driving down a dark road I'm not going to ask him for money first before I take him to the hospital.

326 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:15:29pm

re: #319 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The consonant to vowel dispersal in surnames upsets my obsessive compulsive disorder.

comment of the day

327 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:16:00pm

re: #318 publicityStunted

Sounds like Christine O'Donnell is extremely terrified of Chinese people.

Maybe she thought Kung Pao is some kind of martial art?

(Okay, bad joke, but I like it.)

328 iossarian  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:16:06pm

re: #325 Gus 802

If I run into a person with a gunshot wound to the chest while driving down a dark road I'm not going to ask him for money first before I take him to the hospital.

commie filth/

329 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:16:23pm

re: #323 WindUpBird

Shit like THIS is how a civilization crumbles. When we as a society think this is okay.

Extreme anti-government ideology that feeds into apathy and suspicion about your fellow man, ahoy!

It's downright inhuman.

330 jayzee  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:16:25pm

re: #294 iossarian

It seems it's a consequence of that other aspect of American tax-hatred: people not wanting to live in certain established towns (because of taxes) but quite happy to live in less-regulated townships just outside the towns, avoid the taxes, and still drive into the towns to take advantage of the wonderful amenities that the towns are able to provide.

It's what killed Detroit and St. Louis, among other places.

Truthfully, the policy that South Fulton had in regards to charging for its services is a good one. They should be paid for their services like its taxpayers do. What was horrible was allowing the house to burn. Sadly, this was the second time it had happened. The first time was in 2008, which is when the county began evaluating plans for a county wide service to encompass its rural areas.

331 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:16:32pm

re: #280 RogueOne

Peoples World, really? The union will still gets its chance, just like they did last time, to continue to work at the water dept. Tell Peoples World to relax.

Indianapolis Water Works has been privately owned since 2002, the water quality remains fine and costs are lower. You might notice that we semi-sold it to a foreign country even, GASP! I can't prove it but they sound French.

[Link: www.indianapoliswater.com...]

[Link: www.veoliawater.com...]

According to the Environmental Working Group, Indianapolis is in the bottom ten percent of large US cities for tap water quality. 23 inappropriate chemicals were detected.

332 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:16:51pm

re: #325 Gus 802

If I run into a person with a gunshot wound to the chest while driving down a dark road I'm not going to ask him for money first before I take him to the hospital.

Why ask? Just loot him. Double check boot size as well before you dump him.

/

333 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:16:54pm

re: #309 iossarian

Would your assessment of the situation change if the fire had spread to a neighboring house and killed some people who had paid the fee?

Then they would have a lawsuit on their hands for not living up to their end of a contract. This homeowner didn't contract with them for protection therefore he didn't get any.

334 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:16:57pm

re: #268 celticdragon

Maybe, but that isn't how fringe movements tend to roll, is it now?

We have seen what happens to financial markets (and just about everything else at some point in our history) when they are allowed to be under regulated and "self policing".

Read about private orphanages in the 19th century, child labor, company scrip with company stores, canned meat that killed more American soldiers than the enemy did in the Spanish American War...and so on.

We tried "market based solutions", and we get fucked every time.

What is the definition of insanity according to Einstein?

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".

I understand that only too well :)

However that's been the whole point of the Principle versus Pragmatism debate that's been going on in the Libertarian Party. Sure individual freedom is awesome, but at some point principle has to give way to ensuring the survival of the society that spawned it.

Do I trust corporations to do the right thing? Never in a million years. The only responsibility for a corporation is to make a profit. If anything, I think that most corporations would be defined as sociopaths.

Do I trust Governments to do the right thing? No. At the same time, I distrust them less, not because we elect them, but because I have this (perhaps misguided) belief that people go into government service because they want to do good.

How many people are still Boycotting BP?

Exactly.

Getting back to the point about fringe movements, yes, they are fringe, but it's time to shed that fringe and get to work trying to create a pragmatic brand of libertarianish mixed with Liberal views to create a good fusion of relatively limited government with effective protections and safeguards.

I think it's possible, and I hope to keep pushing for Liberals to become more libertarian, and libertarians to become more liberal. :)

335 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:17:16pm

re: #321 RogueOne

They're a governmental agency that takes care of its taxpayers that freelances as a private organization taking care of paying members outside its jurisdiction. What makes you think you have the right to a service you haven't paid for?

This isn't about me thinking I have the right to anything, Rogue. Don't be a shithead.

This is a failure of the local government to provide effective fire-fighting services, by acting as though the service could be treated like a private market.

This is also a huge moral and intellectual failure by firefighters who had the capability to put out a fire who chose not to-- which, again, led to the property damage of someone who had paid their subscription.

336 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:17:17pm

re: #332 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Why ask? Just loot him. Double check boot size as well before you dump him.

/

"Hmm, size 10 boots."

//

337 Varek Raith  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:17:27pm

re: #332 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Why ask? Just loot him. Double check boot size as well before you dump him.

/

That's my S.O.P. in Fallout 3.

338 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:17:31pm

"hey, the cops have your kid at the station, apparently she was raped."

"I'll pick her up!"

"Hold on there champ, you paid the cop bill yet? because you ain't getting your kid back until you make with the green"

339 Max  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:17:34pm

re: #299 Gus 802

You only get emergency treatment. All they have to do is stabilize you and send you home. Once you have good vital signs they send you packing. The SCOTUS did not say anything about providing long term treatment. Basically it means they treat the acute symptoms.

That's not true, Gus. I went without health insurance for years. I would go down and get the anti-biotics I needed and I would be well in a few days. Or I would just go to the CVS Minute-Clinic or the Wal-Mart clinic. All are cheaper than health insurance (or the taxes I'd pay for single-payer). I have never been to an ER where I didn't get everything I need to recover.

Also, I've got two ER nurses in the family, both spent thirty years caring and treating everyone from millionaires to migrant workers.

340 Neutral President  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:17:54pm

re: #324 HappyWarrior

It's the Henry Hill principle, "fuck you, pay me." My big issue with how the firefighters responded is that this fire easily could have spread. It's unsafe first and foremost.

Youtube Video
341 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:18:00pm

re: #298 Obdicut

BTW, I'm not the one who turned this into a question of privitazation. It's part of the opening line to the thread:


The conservative vision of utopia (touted by many of the GOP candidates in this election) is a society in which most government agencies are privatized, and unfettered free enterprise reigns supreme.

I'm staying OT.

342 iossarian  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:18:27pm

re: #333 RogueOne

Then they would have a lawsuit on their hands for not living up to their end of a contract. This homeowner didn't contract with them for protection therefore he didn't get any.

OK, but my point is: shouldn't they have just put out the fire so as to avoid the possibility of that happening?

343 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:18:48pm

re: #329 Gus 802

It's downright inhuman.

It sure is.

But tomorrow someone will make some class-of-2004 dis about california and this will all be forgotten and Dark Falcon will talk about spending and how the democrats this and that and life will go on

344 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:18:55pm

re: #334 bloodstar

You are pretty much the only dude I've met who calls himself a libertarian who actually engages with moderation. Kudos.

I feel much the same way as you do-- I just stopped calling myself a libertarian because too many of the whackjobs were.

345 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:19:28pm

re: #341 RogueOne

BTW, I'm not the one who turned this into a question of privitazation. It's part of the opening line to the thread:

I'm staying OT.

Yep, and you are batting 0 for 2 with your great examples of privatization working well.

346 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:19:34pm

Speaking of fire and ERs I need some smokes. BIAB

347 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:19:50pm

While we're on Chinese people here, wasn't it Jackie Chan's father that almost didn't pay the hospital bill because he was short on money?

He wouldn't have gotten the kid if he hadn't. Not kidding. I remember reading about kids being abandoned somewhere in Eastern Europe in the early 90's because they were preemies and their parents could only get out of the bill if they abandoned the babies.

Not cool.

348 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:19:57pm

re: #337 Varek Raith

That's my S.O.P. in Fallout 3.

Hmm, look, another scavenger wandering the waste with his stash. Do I stop and barter with him?

Hehe, sucker.

/unlimbers combat shotgun

349 gamark  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:20:07pm

re: #235 Fozzie Bear

People who think that privatization increases efficiency would make absolutely terrible businessmen. You are in it for profit, so what interest do you have in making it cheaper? None.

I think a guy named Henry Ford met with some success using the "make it cheaper" strategy.

350 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:20:12pm

re: #341 RogueOne

BTW, I'm not the one who turned this into a question of privitazation. It's part of the opening line to the thread:

I'm staying OT.

In our discussion, Rogue, I asked you why you ignored Subsailor82's final paragraph, dealing with moral hazard.

You still have not responded in any way to this.

And the fire brigade is acting as though it is a private company. Do you understand that?

351 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:20:16pm

re: #307 Fozzie Bear

Of course, they were recently caught falsifying water quality reports. They cut corners, and people drank unacceptable amounts E. Coli for years.

What a shocker. A public utility, privatized, cuts corners and jeopardizes the safety of the public. Gee, never could have seen that one coming. Any other great success stories, Rogue?

Actually that was Rochester, a public property and government employee. Still shocked? I'm not. Next time check a map before leaping.

352 jayzee  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:20:25pm

re: #346 Gus 802

Speaking of fire and ERs I need some smokes. BIAB

Two weeks off. I'm so jealous. (chewing nicorette frantically).

353 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:20:33pm

re: #349 gamark

I think a guy named Henry Ford met with some success using the "make it cheaper" strategy.

That's because he wasn't in a monopolistic market.

354 calochortus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:20:37pm

I haven't read all the comments and someone may have made this point already, but as I understand it, this was a city fire department that also was willing to provide services to the surrounding county, if the county would pay for it. The county would not, so, lacking the ability to tax the residents of the county offered their services on a voluntary basis if people paid a fee in lieu of taxes. This guy thought they'd come even if he chose not to pay the fee.

Do not get me wrong, I think this is a terrible situation, and I don't think basic services should be privatized. I think there is a huge amount of blame to go around. I'm guessing this guy didn't want to be taxed, either by the county or 'voluntarily' and missed the fact that there was apparently a similar situation in 2008.

355 Max  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:20:56pm

re: #346 Gus 802

Speaking of fire and ERs I need some smokes. BIAB

Got get your smokes, keep those sin taxes rolling. My roads need repairing.

356 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:22:08pm

re: #349 gamark

I think a guy named Henry Ford met with some success using the "make it cheaper" strategy.

That only works when you have a competitor who will force to you keep certain other standards as well.

357 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:22:19pm

re: #354 calochortus

Or he just didn't understand the policy.

Eventually, this circumstance will lead to someone who has paid, who's record of payment gets lost and the same thing happens to him.

358 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:22:23pm

re: #351 RogueOne

Actually that was Rochester, a public property and government employee. Still shocked? I'm not. Next time check a map before leaping.

For the rest of you who updinged his initial comment they have this thing on the webs called google that does mapping so even if you're unfamiliar with an area you can still find it.

Rochester, IN:

[Link: maps.google.com...]

359 HappyBenghazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:23:00pm

re: #340 ArchangelMichael

[Video]

Thanks. Love that movie.

360 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:23:09pm

re: #358 RogueOne

You haven't given an actual reason why you trust the water quality yet, Rogue. I'm taking that "I drink it" part as a joke, since I know you're smart enough to know that you can't actually judge water quality by drinking it.

361 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:23:16pm

re: #357 Obdicut

Or he just didn't understand the policy.

Eventually, this circumstance will lead to someone who has paid, who's record of payment gets lost and the same thing happens to him.

Well, in Ankh Mopork, if you're paid up to the thieves guild, you get a little plaque to put up on the doorway so they don't actually rob you.

Frankly, most FD would really like it if you would just make sure your house numbers are easy to read.

362 abolitionist  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:23:48pm

Several years ago, I changed the 9v battery in a smoke alarm at my mom's house. About ten minutes later, the local FD showed up.

I love modern technology, but hate stupid and badly flawed design, either in devices or systems.

363 calochortus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:26:05pm

re: #357 Obdicut

Or he just didn't understand the policy.

Eventually, this circumstance will lead to someone who has paid, who's record of payment gets lost and the same thing happens to hm

Probably true-I didn't say it was a good idea. I'm guessing he understood the policy, since it said there had been a similar incident 2 years previously. It just wasn't going to be something he thought he'd need, and if he did, well gosh, they'd understand he was really deserving...

364 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:26:53pm

Leading to the overwhelmingly baffling question:

Why do the batteries on my fire alarms always go out at 2 am? (They're wired into the house but have a back-up battery. When the batteries run low, they beep. While I am not short, nevertheless I require a ladder to change the batteries. At 2 am.)

365 KronoGhazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:27:05pm

re: #362 abolitionist

That does not make sense at all. There may be something wrong with the installation, I'd have that checked out.

366 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:27:06pm

I know it hurts to hear but the privatization drive in Indpls that was done over a decade ago has been a huge success. It's saved money and our city is in much better shape than most, currently. It's also spread around the state thanks to Gov. Daniels and our state is doing better than any of our neighbors. I'm not arguing EVERYTHING should be privatized but there are definitely areas where the private sector does a much better job than the government.

Goldsmith, the mayor that did the most work, has moved on to NYC where I believe he's a deputy mayor now.

367 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:27:16pm

re: #363 calochortus

Or maybe he thought, since there was a similar situation, that someone had fixed the stupid fucking system since then.

You know who this would really suck for? The elderly, especially those who are just a bit out of it and maybe can't comprehend that the government has gotten so stupid they've stopped putting out fires.

368 subsailor68  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:27:40pm

re: #354 calochortus

I haven't read all the comments and someone may have made this point already, but as I understand it, this was a city fire department that also was willing to provide services to the surrounding county, if the county would pay for it. The county would not, so, lacking the ability to tax the residents of the county offered their services on a voluntary basis if people paid a fee in lieu of taxes. This guy thought they'd come even if he chose not to pay the fee.

Do not get me wrong, I think this is a terrible situation, and I don't think basic services should be privatized. I think there is a huge amount of blame to go around. I'm guessing this guy didn't want to be taxed, either by the county or 'voluntarily' and missed the fact that there was apparently a similar situation in 2008.

I think you've hit the issue, and jayzee in post 330 notes that the county was looking at the issue back in 2008 (not sure what came of that).

If someone dropped the ball here, I suspect it was the county commissioners, as you note in your post. They are elected to provide services and support to their constituents. If they took the easy way out (in their minds) and avoided needing to raise taxes to either a) fund their own fire service or b) contract with the city for county-wide fire protection - well, it seems to me they may want to re-think their responsibilities, or find another line of work.

369 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:27:47pm

re: #366 RogueOne

Remember, Rogue, you might want to actually support your assertion rather than just making it over and over.

370 Max  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:27:48pm

re: #351 RogueOne

Actually that was Rochester, a public property and government employee. Still shocked? I'm not. Next time check a map before leaping.

I find it very chilling that the Lizard Army was quick to upding Fozzie Bear's knee-jerk comment but ignore you when you corrected him.

Group think?

371 calochortus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:27:57pm

re: #364 EmmmieG

Around here its usually 4 am. I suspect it has to do with batteries not working quite as well when they're cooler. But I really don't know.

372 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:28:24pm

re: #370 Max D. Reinhardt

I find it very chilling that the Lizard Army was quick to upding Fozzie Bear's knee-jerk comment but ignore you when you corrected him.

Group think?

Rogue still hasn't provided any reason he actually thinks the water quality is good, though.

373 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:28:34pm

re: #360 Obdicut

You haven't given an actual reason why you trust the water quality yet, Rogue. I'm taking that "I drink it" part as a joke, since I know you're smart enough to know that you can't actually judge water quality by drinking it.

I don't know, maybe because they have to do federal testing all the time? There hasn't been an issue in a decade? It's clear? Etc, Etc,.... Why does the idea of privatization bother you so much? Are you really of the belief that the government, and only the government, can successfully manage an industry?

374 JeffM70  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:29:03pm

re: #271 Fozzie Bear

When you are a firehouse, all potential customers who are closer to you than they are to other firehouses are your monopolized customer base.

You don't exactly get to shop around when seconds count. You get the service from the closest firehouse, because if you don't, there won't be anything left to put out.

I was answering the larger question about when and why it would be in the best interest of a private business to offer cheaper prices. I don't think privatization of emergency services is a good idea.

Going back to an earlier question, even though the firefighters decided not to put the fire out because the owner didn't pay the fee, they should have been taking measures to insure the fire didn't spread to the neighbor's property, who did pay the fee, rather than waiting for the neighbor's property to be damaged first before acting.

375 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:29:25pm

re: #344 Obdicut

You are pretty much the only dude I've met who calls himself a libertarian who actually engages with moderation. Kudos.

I feel much the same way as you do-- I just stopped calling myself a libertarian because too many of the whackjobs were.

They do exist, they're just drowned out by the zealots. There are a lot of people here with libertarian leanings, it's just that when your standard bearers are the Pauls, and the Tea Party. I can't blame them for not wanting to be associated with the name.

I think the current movement for a liberaltarians is a good one, and if it can ever get off the ground would fuse what I believe is a very natural alliance between liberals and libertarians. And yes, I might be wildly optimistic to believe that, but I cannot ever imagine how libertarians and conservatives, particularly the new virulent strain of conservatism can ever work together.

Ultimately, ArchangelMichael summed it up well about pragmatism:
re: #305 ArchangelMichael

Any political philosophy created by humans is by definition flawed because no one is perfect or omniscient. If you try to keep logical consistency within the philosophy in the real world you will quickly run into breaking points. This is why pure capitalism doesn't work, why communism doesn't work, and why Keynesian economics doesn't always work either. Real world application of any system requires constant tweaking and exceptions to the rule. Until humans are "perfect" (i.e. never) this will be the case.

I couldn't have said it better, it's why i get frustrated with true believers who won't compromise. The world doesn't work in black and white.

376 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:29:40pm

re: #351 RogueOne

Actually that was Rochester, a public property and government employee. Still shocked? I'm not. Next time check a map before leaping.

Ahh you are correct. The plant in question was run by Veolia Water Indianapolis, another private company which took over Rochester's water supply. Different private company.

Next time, check to see that your point actually bolsters your argument.

377 calochortus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:29:57pm

re: #368 subsailor68

I think the county officials were too busy being proud of not raising taxes to worry about a little thing like fire safety.

378 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:31:15pm

re: #345 Fozzie Bear

Yep, and you are batting 0 for 2 with your great examples of privatization working well.

I'm still waiting for you to at least say "oops" over your last diatribe bashing government employees.

379 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:31:25pm

re: #373 RogueOne

I don't know, maybe because they have to do federal testing all the time? There hasn't been an issue in a decade? It's clear? Etc, Etc,... Why does the idea of privatization bother you so much? Are you really of the belief that the government, and only the government, can successfully manage an industry?

The testing is done by the water company, then the results are submitted to the government. The government only checks periodically for compliance. As in, every several years.

380 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:31:27pm

re: #373 RogueOne

I don't know, maybe because they have to do federal testing all the time?

Wait, who has to do testing? They self-test?

Again-- and you call me naive.

There hasn't been an issue in a decade?

Do you dispute this part?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Why does the idea of privatization bother you so much?

It doesn't. That's why, in discussing private prisons above, I didn't suggest they become public, but instead suggested a way that they remain private but the profit motive work for public benefit. Amazing, eh?

Are you really of the belief that the government, and only the government, can successfully manage an industry?

No, as shown above. That's the weird fantasy that you have about me, that you insist on holding to no matter how many times you're shown that it's not reality.

381 calochortus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:31:30pm

re: #367 Obdicut

Or maybe he thought, since there was a similar situation, that someone had fixed the stupid fucking system since then.

You know who this would really suck for? The elderly, especially those who are just a bit out of it and maybe can't comprehend that the government has gotten so stupid they've stopped putting out fires.

This would suck for many, many people. My solution? Oh, how about our governments tax us and provide basic services, like health and safety? I know that probably makes me a communist, but then you won't mind as you're probably one too./

382 dmon  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:31:37pm

re: #364 EmmmieG

Smoke detector batteries should be changed twice a year. It's easiest to remember if you change your batteries when you change your clocks (daylight savings time)

383 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:31:56pm

re: #378 RogueOne

I'm still waiting for you to at least say "oops" over your last diatribe bashing government employees.

Actually, I was just pointing out the wrong private water utility. The point remains the same.

384 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:32:41pm

re: #383 Fozzie Bear

So, no, you don't get an oops, you get an "i told you so".

385 subsailor68  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:32:44pm

re: #377 calochortus

I think the county officials were too busy being proud of not raising taxes to worry about a little thing like fire safety.

LOL! I'd say you were a cynic, but - oops! - that happens all the time around here, so I guess I gotta go with you being a realist.

;-)

386 Max  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:33:27pm

re: #384 Fozzie Bear

So, no, you don't get an oops, you get an "i told you so".

Chillax.

387 KronoGhazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:33:49pm

re: #375 bloodstar

I couldn't have said it better, it's why i get frustrated with true believers who won't compromise. The world doesn't work in black and white.

Which is exactly why capitalism, socialism, or government regulation aren't entirely good or bad things. Count me as a shy libertarian/ashamed conservative.

388 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:34:16pm

re: #386 Max D. Reinhardt

Chillax.

I'm completely chill. I'm rather enjoying watching Rogue flail about, not making sense.

389 abolitionist  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:35:23pm

re: #365 BigPapa

That does not make sense at all. There may be something wrong with the installation, I'd have that checked out.

The detector had been beeping, signaling a low battery. When the battery was removed to put in a fresh one, the RF signal to the base station was briefly interrupted. It was apparently a stupid fail-safe design of some sort.

390 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:35:42pm

re: #379 Fozzie Bear

The testing is done by the water company, then the results are submitted to the government. The government only checks periodically for compliance. As in, every several years.

did you manage to find any problems with compliance in our city since 2002? I'm betting not since you were so quick to jump on Rochester.

I'm still waiting for someone, anyone, to tell me where they get the idea that government employees perform higher than private employees? The post office? Social Security? Your local court house? What gives people so much faith in their government that even the idea of putting a public utility into the hands of a private corporation sends chills down their spines?

391 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:36:57pm

re: #380 Obdicut

You're stretching so hard to show that a utility put into private hands almost a decade ago is a failure when there isn't any evidence to suggest it. The only thing you have is a gut feeling that government does a better job than private. You can't prove it in any way but you're still going to hold on to that belief. knock yourself out.

392 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:37:15pm

Per the expanded TV news report, this is the second house in 3 yrs that has been allowed to burn. A profile of the South Fulton FD follows. It seems to be city-run, only pay-for-spray out in the county. Note the Mission Statement 'Public Relations' clause. FAIL

393 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:37:17pm

re: #390 RogueOne

did you manage to find any problems with compliance in our city since 2002? I'm betting not since you were so quick to jump on Rochester.

I'm still waiting for someone, anyone, to tell me where they get the idea that government employees perform higher than private employees? The post office? Social Security? Your local court house? What gives people so much faith in their government that even the idea of putting a public utility into the hands of a private corporation sends chills down their spines?

Can you explain where you get the idea that for-profit companies are inherently more efficient? What gives you so much faith that private industry can do better, for profit, that which the government can do?

394 Max  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:37:21pm

re: #379 Fozzie Bear

The testing is done by the water company, then the results are submitted to the government. The government only checks periodically for compliance. As in, every several years.

And how often do you think the workmen at a public station are testing the water? A private company can fire an employee much easier than a public-union member employee. Seems like the private company has more of an incentive to keep an eye on the H20.

395 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:37:32pm

re: #390 RogueOne

Why are you ignoring this, Rogue?

[Link: www.ewg.org...]

I'm still waiting for someone, anyone, to tell me where they get the idea that government employees perform higher than private employees?

I'm waiting for someone to make that assertion.

Until then, that's your strawman.

396 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:37:47pm

re: #392 Decatur Deb

PIMF Link:

[Link: www.cityofsouthfulton.org...]

397 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:38:12pm

re: #391 RogueOne

You're stretching so hard to show that a utility put into private hands almost a decade ago is a failure when there isn't any evidence to suggest it. The only thing you have is a gut feeling that government does a better job than private. You can't prove it in any way but you're still going to hold on to that belief. knock yourself out.

From whence does your gut feeling that doing something for a profit rather than as a government service is superior come?

398 Ericus58  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:38:39pm

re: #370 Max D. Reinhardt

I find it very chilling that the Lizard Army was quick to upding Fozzie Bear's knee-jerk comment but ignore you when you corrected him.

Group think?

the Hive is humming.....

399 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:38:51pm

re: #371 calochortus

Around here its usually 4 am. I suspect it has to do with batteries not working quite as well when they're cooler. But I really don't know.

I think you are right, and that makes a great deal of sense.

My father the electrical engineer (as opposed to my husband the electrical engineer or my grandfather the electrical engineer) told a story once that is long and involved, so I won't tell it here, but essentially electronics do come on more slowly in the cold.

400 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:39:27pm

re: #391 RogueOne

You're stretching so hard to show that a utility put into private hands almost a decade ago is a failure when there isn't any evidence to suggest it.

I'm not actually trying to prove it's a failure. I'm pointing out that you are simply stating that the water quality is high with absolutely nothing to back it up, except your passionate belief that privatization is always good.

Basically, look in the mirror once in awhile. Almost all your attacks on me are a gigantic case of projection. It's rather Randian.

401 KronoGhazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:39:58pm

re: #389 abolitionist

The detector had been beeping, signaling a low battery. When the battery was removed to put in a fresh one, the RF signal to the base station was briefly interrupted. It was apparently a stupid fail-safe design of some sort.

So it's a wireless system? Now I'm even more concerned. If it's truly an RF smoke detector they don't send in Alarm signals to the receiver on a battery swap out by design. Even if it's a wired system this should not happen.

This is not a problem with design it's a problem with installation or programming to the central monitoring station. Please get it checked out.

402 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:40:00pm

re: #370 Max D. Reinhardt

I find it very chilling that the Lizard Army was quick to upding Fozzie Bear's knee-jerk comment but ignore you when you corrected him.

Group think?

Well, I was incorrect only in name. People tend to upding substantiated claims here.

403 calochortus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:40:22pm

I hate to just pop in and out, but there is work to be done (of the sort which doesn't allow me to sit next to a computer while I do it.)

Later.

404 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:40:48pm

re: #383 Fozzie Bear

Actually, I was just pointing out the wrong private water utility. The point remains the same.

Except they aren't private. Rochester water works is city owned and operated. What do you have against government employees?

405 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:40:52pm

re: #355 Max D. Reinhardt

Got get your smokes, keep those sin taxes rolling. My roads need repairing.

SCHIP

I do it for the children.

/

406 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:41:49pm

re: #388 Fozzie Bear

I'm completely chill. I'm rather enjoying watching Rogue flail about, not making sense.

C'mon man, you know you leaped without looking and you can't drum up enough humor to at least laugh about it?

407 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:42:44pm

re: #394 Max D. Reinhardt

And how often do you think the workmen at a public station are testing the water? A private company can fire an employee much easier than a public-union member employee. Seems like the private company has more of an incentive to keep an eye on the H20.

The same mechanism applies to public institutions. And what, exactly, do unions have to do with this?

408 Varek Raith  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:43:15pm

re: #407 Fozzie Bear

The same mechanism applies to public institutions. And what, exactly, do unions have to do with this?

Conservative Boogey Man.

409 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:43:56pm

re: #393 Fozzie Bear

Can you explain where you get the idea that for-profit companies are inherently more efficient? What gives you so much faith that private industry can do better, for profit, that which the government can do?

Past performance? Can you name an industry, besides military, that the government does hands down better? Mail delivery? Health Care? Road repair? Any?

There are industries the government should have to take complete control and responsibility for (like police and prisons IMO), everything else should be put up to bid.

410 BongGhazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:44:24pm

re: #268 celticdragon

Maybe, but that isn't how fringe movements tend to roll, is it now?

We have seen what happens to financial markets (and just about everything else at some point in our history) when they are allowed to be under regulated and "self policing".

Read about private orphanages in the 19th century, child labor, company scrip with company stores, canned meat that killed more American soldiers than the enemy did in the Spanish American War...and so on.

We tried "market based solutions", and we get fucked every time.

What is the definition of insanity according to Einstein?

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".


But we're smarter now! //

411 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:44:43pm

re: #406 RogueOne

C'mon man, you know you leaped without looking and you can't drum up enough humor to at least laugh about it?

You mean like you might laugh at claiming Indianapolis water quality remains high, when an independent third party analysis says that's baloney?

412 Varek Raith  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:45:51pm

LOL.

I don't trust the Feds.

I sure as hell don't trust corps.

Funny, that.

413 JeffM70  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:45:59pm
Can you explain where you get the idea that for-profit companies are inherently more efficient? What gives you so much faith that private industry can do better, for profit, that which the government can do?

There is more incentive for private companies to be more efficient because efficiency is more profitable. Of course that doesn't mean they are more efficient.

414 abolitionist  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:46:30pm

re: #401 BigPapa

Appreciate the reply.

415 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:46:30pm

re: #413 JeffM70

There is more incentive for private companies to be more efficient because efficiency is more profitable. Of course that doesn't mean they are more efficient.

Or that that efficiency benefits the public-- especially in a monopolistic situation.

416 Varek Raith  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:46:39pm

re: #413 JeffM70

There is more incentive for private companies to be more efficient because efficiency is more profitable. Of course that doesn't mean they are more efficient.

Except for the Insurance industry.
More efficient=less profit$

417 reine.de.tout  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:47:24pm

re: #393 Fozzie Bear

Can you explain where you get the idea that for-profit companies are inherently more efficient? What gives you so much faith that private industry can do better, for profit, that which the government can do?

Well, your link in 307 mentions "civil servants", which to me is a public employee, not a private one:
"All citizens should be confident that their civil servants are providing accurate reports and abiding by laws meant to protect the environment," said John C. Cruden, Acting Assistant Attorney General for the Justice Department's Environment and Natural Resources Division. "The prosecution in this case demonstrates the coordinated effort of federal, state and local officials to investigate and prosecute those violating the nation's environmental laws."

"Accurate information about a community's water quality is essential to protect the public health and the environment," said Randy Ashe, Special Agent-in-Charge of EPA's criminal enforcement program in Chicago. "Those who submit false reports or bogus data undermine those efforts and they will be vigorously investigated and prosecuted."

At any rate, I worked for state government.

There are things that ONLY a government agency can do and do well.
And there are things that ONLY a private entity can do, and do well.

Finding that balance when we're talking about services available to the public is sometimes a difficult one.

Firefighting - I can't believe that the firefighters in the story mentioned in this post are not public employees. A fire at one house could easily spread to another one in the neighborhood; and firefighters need to be fighting whatever fires they come across. As we see in that example, a pay-for-service firefighting plan doesn't work. The government there should be providing that service; paid for through taxes or whatever.

418 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:47:44pm

re: #400 Obdicut

I'm not actually trying to prove it's a failure. I'm pointing out that you are simply stating that the water quality is high with absolutely nothing to back it up, except your passionate belief that privatization is always good.

Basically, look in the mirror once in awhile. Almost all your attacks on me are a gigantic case of projection. It's rather Randian.

Please. You hate the fact that privatization has worked here and would like nothing else than to be able to point out its failure but you can't. We spread our fire and police protection throughout the county (saving money, lowering taxes) we privatized the water and electric without a hiccup, and we're making money on a toll road that used to lose money. I have all the evidence I need right in front of me to argue that privatization works.

Here's an old Charlie rose interview with goldsmith, you can watch and learn his reasonings:
[Link: www.tvcert.com...]

419 JeffM70  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:47:50pm

re: #415 Obdicut

Or that that efficiency benefits the public-- especially in a monopolistic situation.

Right. The public may or may not benefit. The goal is for the company's bottom line to benefit.

420 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:48:04pm

re: #416 Varek Raith

Except for the Insurance industry.
More efficient=less profit$

Doesn't apply to GM either. The last CEO ran the company and the stock into the ground while collecting a multimillion dollar salary.

421 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:48:17pm

re: #417 reine.de.tout

They are public employees. They're just acting like they're private ones. The worst of all possible scenarios.

422 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:48:42pm

I'm always a little amazed at the kinds of things right wingers will defend.

423 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:49:10pm

re: #413 JeffM70

There is more incentive for private companies to be more efficient because efficiency is more profitable. Of course that doesn't mean they are more efficient.

It was more efficient to pay the projected number of product liability suits than to fix the fuel tank problem on the 1977 Ford Pinto.

424 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:49:18pm

re: #412 Varek Raith

LOL.

I don't trust the Feds.

I sure as hell don't trust corps.

Funny, that.

I don't trust anyone further than I can throw them, and with my back, nowadays, that isn't very far.

425 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:49:35pm

re: #418 RogueOne

Please. You hate the fact that privatization has worked here and would like nothing else than to be able to point out its failure but you can't.

Why do you have these weird fantasies about my opinions, Rogue? Seriously, it's kind of creepy.

Can you just acknowledge the report listing Indianapolis water quality at 90 out of a hundred (with 1 being the best) that's been linked for you three times?

426 JeffM70  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:49:39pm

re: #416 Varek Raith

Except for the Insurance industry.
More efficient=less profit$

Henry Ford would beg to differ.

427 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:49:42pm

re: #411 Obdicut

You mean like you might laugh at claiming Indianapolis water quality remains high, when an independent third party analysis says that's baloney?

I'll send you a gallon and let you test it first hand. That's how classy I am./

428 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:50:06pm

re: #424 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I don't trust anyone further than I can throw them, and with my back, nowadays, that isn't very far.

That must mean you throw around a lot of little people.

//

429 BishopX  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:50:14pm

re: #364 EmmmieG

I actually asked an electrician this once, about my new-fangled talking fire alarm that went off at 12am 5 days in a row... According to her some fire alarms detect smoke by looking for a voltage drop across a sensor. Now since I live in a state which requires networked smoke detectors in residential homes, all my smoke detectors are plugged in as well as better powered, so when the power company decides to shed load at 1am, it set my G-D DAMMED TALKING fire alarm off.

If you don't have that particular combination of functioning regulatory power, decrepit infrastructure and poor choice off electronics then G-D just hates you.

//

Other useful tip, try vacuuming the smoke alarm, sometimes you get spider web buildup which can trigger it.

430 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:50:14pm

re: #424 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I don't trust anyone further than I can throw them, and with my back, nowadays, that isn't very far.

This is precisely why I'm building a trebuchet; I need to improve my trust in my fellow man.

431 Varek Raith  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:50:43pm

re: #430 Obdicut

This is precisely why I'm building a trebuchet; I need to improve my trust in my fellow man.

Think...
Rail gun.

432 st. louisville cards  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:50:45pm

re: #310 Obdicut

Or maybe he didn't even understand or hadn't heard of the policy.

Or maybe he did pay, but the check got lost in the mail.


Well It seems that most people here haven't read the article (at most you all have read the liberal baiting article from Think Progress) I found a couple of articles (news articles, not we want tv ratings or we want liberal policy articles) that state that the family was contacted multiple times in multiple ways about the $75. They clearly made a choice to not pay the $75, they screwed themselves...hopefully they weren't this dumb with their homeowners insurance (and hopefully their insurance isn't voided by their not paying the fire protection bill).

re: #316 Varek Raith

Yeah, whatever.
Why stop there?
Just pay your police protection.
And if you can't afford the ambulance fee?
Too bad.

And further evidence that no one here is reading about this situation. This isn't some private fire service. This is a city fire department, payed with city taxes. Just like most every other fire department in the country. These people lived out of the city and were told to receive the same service that the tax paying people in the city receive they needed to pay for it. But because the homeowner was selfish and figured he'd still get the service he didn't pay for it.

433 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:50:56pm

re: #420 Killgore Trout

Doesn't apply to GM either. The last CEO ran the company and the stock into the ground while collecting a multimillion dollar salary.

Except now it's easier that it's government owned.//

434 iossarian  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:51:05pm

re: #428 Gus 802

That must mean you throw around a lot of little people.

//

I don't trust small people either. Nasty little sneaks. /

435 JeffM70  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:51:05pm

re: #423 Decatur Deb

It was more efficient to pay the projected number of product liability suits than to fix the fuel tank problem on the 1977 Ford Pinto.

It is. Efficiency doesn't always translate to the public good.

436 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:51:30pm

re: #434 iossarian

I don't trust small people either. Nasty little sneaks. /

Randy Newman

437 Varek Raith  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:51:44pm

re: #433 RogueOne

Except now it's easier that it's government owned.//

Isn't it just awesome and efficient how the free markets rewards complete and utter failures with huge salaries???

438 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:52:15pm

re: #435 JeffM70

It is. Efficiency doesn't always translate to the public good.

Then it's not the virtue it seems.

439 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:52:24pm

re: #390 RogueOne

did you manage to find any problems with compliance in our city since 2002? I'm betting not since you were so quick to jump on Rochester.

I'm still waiting for someone, anyone, to tell me where they get the idea that government employees perform higher than private employees? The post office? Social Security? Your local court house? What gives people so much faith in their government that even the idea of putting a public utility into the hands of a private corporation sends chills down their spines?

Wow blind ideology all over the place here, the classic Republican Post Office canard rears back and bellows on the savannah

You know we have the best post office on earth, right? for the money, you cannot beat it. Talk to people in Italy if you want to hear about postal service.

440 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:52:48pm

Hey, at least it's not like "Gangs of New York" where they fight over "hydrant rights" while your house burns down, and run inside the burning house to steal your stuff.

441 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:53:17pm

Yes, the power supply is fixed and I do not have to replace the system board!

442 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:53:25pm

re: #430 Obdicut

This is precisely why I'm building a trebuchet; I need to improve my trust in my fellow man.

If God wanted us to trust our fellow man more, he would have devised us with a more effective fulcrum release mechanism.

443 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:53:55pm

re: #441 Alouette

Yes, the power supply is fixed and I do not have to replace the system board!

Yet.

444 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:54:22pm

re: #164 gordon marock

Using anecdotes, particularly ones that are supposed to pull at your heart strings, to argue about the efficacy of the gov't vs. free market in delivering certain services is total bullshit. Next sob story, please.

Fuck you too.

445 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:54:30pm

re: #435 JeffM70

It is. Efficiency doesn't always translate to the public good.

Efficiency never really takes humanity into account

Which is sort of why I'm never going to be a Republican, since even fiscal conservatives seem to place a higher premium on the abstract of efficiency with the actual realities of the care of human beings in a functioning society

Just an ideological gulf that they're never going to cross for me, and I sure as shit ain't crossing for them

446 JeffM70  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:54:56pm

re: #438 Decatur Deb

Then it's not the virtue it seems.

Efficiency is not inherently virtuous to be sure.

447 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:55:03pm

re: #164 gordon marock

Using anecdotes, particularly ones that are supposed to pull at your heart strings, to argue about the efficacy of the gov't vs. free market in delivering certain services is total bullshit. Next sob story, please.

Lol hiya troll

448 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:55:22pm

re: #439 WindUpBird

Wow blind ideology all over the place here, the classic Republican Post Office canard rears back and bellows on the savannah

You know we have the best post office on earth, right? for the money, you cannot beat it. Talk to people in Italy if you want to hear about postal service.

Per certo.

449 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:55:23pm

re: #432 st. louisville cards

Can you link some of these other articles, please?

450 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:55:31pm

re: #441 Alouette

Yes, the power supply is fixed and I do not have to replace the system board!

Lucky. A new MOBO sometimes wreaks havoc to software. Especially anything from MS. Typically they allow only like 5 hardware changes or maybe even less. When the system reads new hardware it assumes you transferred the software to another computer.

451 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:56:09pm

re: #425 Obdicut

Why do you have these weird fantasies about my opinions, Rogue? Seriously, it's kind of creepy.

Can you just acknowledge the report listing Indianapolis water quality at 90 out of a hundred (with 1 being the best) that's been linked for you three times?

The city says it's better than fine, the state says it's better than fine, the feds say it's better than fine but if you want me to say it could be better then fine, it could be better. Privitization was obviously a horrible, horrible mistake. I'm still willing to send you a gallon and let you check for yourself if that will make it better?

[Link: www.indianapoliswater.com...]


The water quality reported surpasses water quality requirements established for health protection by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and enforced by the Indiana Department of Environmental Management.
452 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:56:19pm

re: #450 Gus 802

Which is not a complete big deal but that means having to re-register software. Can be a mess if you don't have the supporting numbers.

453 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:56:36pm

re: #192 Ericus58

I'm sure you have been keeping up on all my points raised.
Am I mistaken for thinking you are trying to rope me into a Lib position that I don't espouse?

I'm not really roping you into anything, I'm just putting it out there as a thing

I do this a lot, I sorta use other peoples' comments on LGf as the entry point onto the freeway of my opinions about policy, but I'm not always arguing with them per se

454 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:57:08pm

PT time. BBL

455 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:57:20pm

re: #450 Gus 802

My mobo has a built-in weirdness; it misreads the timing on my RAM, so I have to manually set it every time the CMOS gets cleared (as it usually does during a move).

It kind of acts like a built-in security feature, though-- there's no physical way to make the computer boot in its current configuration without making that manual change.

456 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:57:50pm

re: #432 st. louisville cards

Well It seems that most people here haven't read the article (at most you all have read the liberal baiting article from Think Progress) I found a couple of articles (news articles, not we want tv ratings or we want liberal policy articles) that state that the family was contacted multiple times in multiple ways about the $75. They clearly made a choice to not pay the $75, they screwed themselves...hopefully they weren't this dumb with their homeowners insurance (and hopefully their insurance isn't voided by their not paying the fire protection bill).

re: #316 Varek Raith

And further evidence that no one here is reading about this situation. This isn't some private fire service. This is a city fire department, payed with city taxes. Just like most every other fire department in the country. These people lived out of the city and were told to receive the same service that the tax paying people in the city receive they needed to pay for it. But because the homeowner was selfish and figured he'd still get the service he didn't pay for it.

Apparently his neighbor also screwed himself by not stealing his neighbor's bills to make sure he paid his firefighter bill.

457 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:57:50pm

re: #441 Alouette

Yes, the power supply is fixed and I do not have to replace the system board!

Cool! Excellent to hear!

458 Max  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:58:40pm

The Israel Museum has finally reopened!

459 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:58:52pm

re: #451 RogueOne

Again: You trust a company that self-tests. And you call me naive.

This is kind of hilarious.

Can you explain why a third-party investigation found otherwise, Rogue?

460 Varek Raith  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:58:56pm

re: #455 Obdicut

My mobo has a built-in weirdness; it misreads the timing on my RAM, so I have to manually set it every time the CMOS gets cleared (as it usually does during a move).

It kind of acts like a built-in security feature, though-- there's no physical way to make the computer boot in its current configuration without making that manual change.

Ever see a power supply frag an entire PC?
Awesome.
Then it wasn't awesome.

461 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:59:30pm

re: #456 Fozzie Bear

Apparently his neighbor also screwed himself by not stealing his neighbor's bills to make sure he paid his firefighter bill.

It's the basic problem behind the libertarian point of view (which I prefer to call by it's real name institutionalized selfishness) that focuses only on short term results of their immediate self interest and fails to take into account the eventual bite back. Karma is a bitch.

462 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 1:59:42pm

re: #439 WindUpBird

Wow blind ideology all over the place here, the classic Republican Post Office canard rears back and bellows on the savannah

You know we have the best post office on earth, right? for the money, you cannot beat it. Talk to people in Italy if you want to hear about postal service.

Still waiting for someone, maybe you, to tell me what service that only the feds can provide superior to the private industry. Any answer other than "blind ideology" that "government rules!"?

463 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:00:07pm

re: #460 Varek Raith

Ever see a power supply frag an entire PC?
Awesome.
Then it wasn't awesome.

No. I haven't.

Some people marry for money. I married for technological expertise.

464 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:00:13pm

If windupbird ruled the world:

Then there is no such thing as a privatized fire department, at all, ever, in any case, no citizen should have to write a check for something that is a basic good of society, and essential safety measures in modern life

public money,public employees, public funds, just like we don't have private corporate police departments in charge of major cities (well, not in America, heh)

Simple!

465 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:00:14pm

re: #460 Varek Raith

Ever see a power supply frag an entire PC?
Awesome.
Then it wasn't awesome.

Sounds interesting, is there a story behind that?

I've never had that happen.

466 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:01:01pm

re: #464 WindUpBird

This situation is even worse: the local government basically decided they didn't need to have a fire department, and that their citizens could contract with a (public) fire department for service.

A horrible mix of private and public.

467 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:01:20pm

re: #458 Max D. Reinhardt

The Israel Museum has finally reopened!

The Zionist Mall has official Israel Museum souvenirs!

468 iossarian  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:01:23pm

re: #462 RogueOne

Still waiting for someone, maybe you, to tell me what service that only the feds can provide superior to the private industry. Any answer other than "blind ideology" that "government rules!"?

I work at a public higher education institute that spends, per degree granted, roughly half as much private institutions that are ranked near us in terms of quality.

469 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:01:45pm

re: #464 WindUpBird

If windupbird ruled the world:

Then there is no such thing as a privatized fire department, at all, ever, in any case, no citizen should have to write a check for something that is a basic good of society, and essential safety measures in modern life

public money,public employees, public funds, just like we don't have private corporate police departments in charge of major cities (well, not in America, heh)

Simple!

Um...How would the public employee fire department guys get paid if nobody ever wrote a check?

I write a check every fall (should be soon) that pays for my county/city services.

Renters do pay taxes, BTW, it's calculated into their taxation rates.

470 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:01:46pm

re: #432 st. louisville cards

Uh, what's more important? 75 bucks or somebody's house? Let's weigh the morality of this. Society should let a 100 thousand dollar or more house burn down because people don't pay a 75 buck fee? Sure, he should have payed the 75 dollars but I don't see this as being equal.

Total households in South Fulton is about 1000 homes. Which means they fire department would be taking in about 75,000 dollars in fees per year. That's if they get it from everybody.

471 Varek Raith  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:01:50pm

re: #465 PT Barnum

Sounds interesting, is there a story behind that?

I've never had that happen.

Yep.
Went to power up a newly built PC for the first time and BOOOM! Smoke everywhere.
Defective power supply.

472 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:02:05pm

Oh boy...

DeMint: Sexually Active Unmarried Women And Gay Teachers Should Be Barred From Classrooms

Sen. Jim DeMint (R-S.C.) says that even though "no one" came to his defense in 2004 after he said that gay people and unwed mothers should be banned from teaching, "everyone" quietly told him that he shouldn't back down from his position.

He also implied that not banning gay people and women who have sex with before marriage from teaching would be an attack on Christians, and defended his position on banning gay teachers because he holds the same position on women who have sex outside of marriage.

"[When I said those things,] no one came to my defense," he said, the Spartanberg Herald-Journal reported. "But everyone would come to me and whisper that I shouldn't back down. They don't want government purging their rights and their freedom to religion."

473 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:02:07pm

re: #180 JeffM70

This illustrates the grand failing of libertarianism, that in a free market it relies on people to do the right thing, like for example private businesses to not discriminate based on color. People don't always to the right thing, especially if it conflicts with their own interests. This was the worst of both worlds, as was pointed out, a tax-funded fire department acting like a private business.

I honestly think that, over time, a society based on pure libertarianism, with everything privatized, even the sidewalks and the military, would effectively erode democracy, and lead quickly to plutocracy. Perhaps in the end though, this would fulfill the revolutionary dream of the Trotskyites. Problem is, with the ruling caste being the only ones with high-powered weapons, the likelihood of a successful revolution in a country of this size would be dim. At first anyway.

474 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:02:09pm

re: #459 Obdicut

Again: You trust a company that self-tests. And you call me naive.

This is kind of hilarious.

Can you explain why a third-party investigation found otherwise, Rogue?

Sigh. I admitted it was all a horrible mistake. The water works, the gas company, and the electric company should all go back to being publicly owned so fans of big government in other states can sleep better at night. Lower taxes and efficiency aren't as important as keeping our neighbors happy.

475 st. louisville cards  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:02:30pm

re: #449 Obdicut

Someone already did
[Link: www.nwtntoday.com...]

Vowell said people always think they will never be in a situation where they will need rural fire protection, but he said City of South Fulton personnel actually go above and beyond in trying to offer the service. He said the city mails out notices to customers in the specified rural coverage area, with coverage running from July 1 of one year to July 1 the next year.
At the end of the enrollment month of July, the city goes a step further and makes phone calls to rural residents who have not responded to the mail-out.
“These folks were called and notified,” Vowell said. “I want to make sure everybody has the opportunity to get it and be aware it’s available. It’s been there for 20 years, but it’s very important to follow up.”

476 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:03:10pm

re: #462 RogueOne

Still waiting for someone, maybe you, to tell me what service that only the feds can provide superior to the private industry. Any answer other than "blind ideology" that "government rules!"?

I am not engaging you on ideology, sorry, because you've already rushed to Strawmanapalooza and you're totally ignoring and/or twisting in extremely bad faith everything that Obdicut has said

So I really don't have much confidence in your ability to have an honest discussion on this topic, and thus it's a waste of my time to engage with you

477 Varek Raith  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:03:14pm

re: #470 Gus 802

Uh, what's more important? 75 bucks or somebody's house? Let's weigh the morality of this. Society should let a 100 thousand dollar or more house burn down because people don't pay a 75 buck fee? Sure, he should have payed the 75 dollars but I don't see this as being equal.

Total households in South Fulton is about 1000 homes. Which means they fire department would be taking in about 75,000 dollars in fees per year. That's if they get it from everybody.

Not to mention the property tax on the newly fried house must just, you know, plummet...

478 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:03:35pm

re: #474 RogueOne

You're obviously just going to keep dodging the third-party report in order to continue your bizarre strawman fantasies about what my opinions are, so I'm going to go do the dishes.

I have no idea why you need to pretend your opponent's arguments are other than what they are, but it makes you look kind of nuts.

479 iossarian  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:03:42pm

re: #474 RogueOne

Sigh. I admitted it was all a horrible mistake. The water works, the gas company, and the electric company should all go back to being publicly owned so fans of big government in other states can sleep better at night. Lower taxes and efficiency aren't as important as keeping our neighbors happy.

LOWER TAXES! EFFICIENCY!

(Pay no attention to the flames leaping from your neighbor's house.)

480 HappyBenghazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:03:49pm

re: #472 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Oh boy...

DeMint: Sexually Active Unmarried Women And Gay Teachers Should Be Barred From Classrooms

So basically according to this asshole, my cousin should have been barred from teaching because she was in an active sexual realtionship before she got married. Yeah, Jim you're an ass and you have no credibility to talk about freedom you backwards dipshit.

481 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:03:52pm

re: #462 RogueOne

Still waiting for someone, maybe you, to tell me what service that only the feds can provide superior to the private industry. Any answer other than "blind ideology" that "government rules!"?

Delivering the mail to Gullet Gap KY (during the months of the year when the roads are passable.) FEDEX and UPS cherry-pick the most doable, profitable locations. The Post Office serves almost everyone by mission.

482 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:03:53pm

re: #477 Varek Raith

Not to mention the property tax on the newly fried house must just, you know, plummet...

I have an easy answer to this. Two words...

SALES TAX

483 Ericus58  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:03:57pm

re: #453 WindUpBird

I'm not really roping you into anything, I'm just putting it out there as a thing

I do this a lot, I sorta use other peoples' comments on LGf as the entry point onto the freeway of my opinions about policy, but I'm not always arguing with them per se

Well, I sure hope they use their signals when merging....
/

484 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:03:58pm

re: #475 st. louisville cards

Wow, they got a letter and a phone call? How could anyone possibly fall through that net?

//

485 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:04:07pm

re: #469 EmmmieG

Um...How would the public employee fire department guys get paid if nobody ever wrote a check?

I write a check every fall (should be soon) that pays for my county/city services.

Renters do pay taxes, BTW, it's calculated into their taxation rates.

I meant rental rates.

486 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:04:15pm

re: #466 Obdicut

This situation is even worse: the local government basically decided they didn't need to have a fire department, and that their citizens could contract with a (public) fire department for service.

A horrible mix of private and public.

WOW.

The breadth of horror just breathtaking

487 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:04:39pm

re: #468 iossarian

I work at a public higher education institute that spends, per degree granted, roughly half as much private institutions that are ranked near us in terms of quality.

Winner! Finally someone with an answer to the question. Then you wouldn't mind having your industry put out to bid? I neglected to mention that in Indpls the electric and gas contracts went to the unions that were working them before the privatization project because I didn't want to muddy the waters.

488 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:05:08pm

re: #468 iossarian

I work at a public higher education institute that spends, per degree granted, roughly half as much private institutions that are ranked near us in terms of quality.

Ba-zaam :D

489 st. louisville cards  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:05:18pm

re: #456 Fozzie Bear

Apparently his neighbor also screwed himself by not stealing his neighbor's bills to make sure he paid his firefighter bill.

again, did you read or watch the link? The neighbors place was saved because he payed his bill, the reason the fire department was at the house to watch it burn was because the neighbor had paid his money and they came to save his place.

490 Varek Raith  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:05:36pm

re: #478 Obdicut

You're obviously just going to keep dodging the third-party report in order to continue your bizarre strawman fantasies about what my opinions are, so I'm going to go do the dishes.

I have no idea why you need to pretend your opponent's arguments are other than what they are, but it makes you look kind of nuts.

You worked for EA.
'Nuff said.
///

491 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:05:54pm

re: #484 Obdicut

Wow, they got a letter and a phone call? How could anyone possibly fall through that net?

//

hahaha no shit

492 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:06:22pm

re: #476 WindUpBird

I am not engaging you on ideology, sorry, because you've already rushed to Strawmanapalooza and you're totally ignoring and/or twisting in extremely bad faith everything that Obdicut has said

So I really don't have much confidence in your ability to have an honest discussion on this topic, and thus it's a waste of my time to engage with you

You're also not engaging me in theory. You're not engaging anything. You're spouting party platform crap.

493 webevintage  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:06:43pm

Around here if a house was left to burn you'd have a good chance of a forest fire starting which is a lot harder to deal with then just purring out a house fire.
Very dry with a burn ban in place.

494 jayzee  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:07:26pm

re: #470 Gus 802

Uh, what's more important? 75 bucks or somebody's house? Let's weigh the morality of this. Society should let a 100 thousand dollar or more house burn down because people don't pay a 75 buck fee? Sure, he should have payed the 75 dollars but I don't see this as being equal.

Total households in South Fulton is about 1000 homes. Which means they fire department would be taking in about 75,000 dollars in fees per year. That's if they get it from everybody.

This was morally reprehensible. Especially in light of the fact that the FD actually went to the house-they already "wasted" the money! The house however is not in South Fulton. Residents of South Fulton do not pay the charge. They pay taxes.

495 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:08:00pm

re: #462 RogueOne

Still waiting for someone, maybe you, to tell me what service that only the feds can provide superior to the private industry. Any answer other than "blind ideology" that "government rules!"?

Sure. Government can provide services in places where private industry won't bother because the cost benefit ratio isn't there,whether or not those services are essential. It's not that private industry can't provide those services more efficiently, it just won't.

496 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:08:01pm

re: #478 Obdicut

You're obviously just going to keep dodging the third-party report in order to continue your bizarre strawman fantasies about what my opinions are, so I'm going to go do the dishes.

I have no idea why you need to pretend your opponent's arguments are other than what they are, but it makes you look kind of nuts.

ONE 3rd party says the water could be better....so freaking what? I thought I made it clear that everyone else, including your beloved government, says it's better than fine. If all you have to hang your head on is that one 3rd party report to argue that privatization is a failure then like I said previously, knock yourself out.

497 st. louisville cards  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:08:07pm

re: #473 eclectic infidel

You seem to be confusing libertarianism with anarchism.

498 Big Steve  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:08:10pm

re: #466 Obdicut

This situation is even worse: the local government basically decided they didn't need to have a fire department, and that their citizens could contract with a (public) fire department for service.

A horrible mix of private and public.


I don't see it that way at all. They chose to live in an unincorporated area. The advantage of doing that is significantly less taxes. So their local juristication which was probably the county since they were not in a city, told them we have a deal for you. Instead of having to have to fund a totally separate fire department which would surely raise your taxes far more than $75/year or you can just pay to have a neighboring communities fire department. The only catch is you actually do have to pay them for the service.

So having be offered what is an incredible deal ($75/yr) they chose not to pay it figuring the fire fighters would come anyway. There is only one villian in this story and it is the homeowner.

499 iossarian  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:08:12pm

re: #487 RogueOne

Winner! Finally someone with an answer to the question. Then you wouldn't mind having your industry put out to bid? I neglected to mention that in Indpls the electric and gas contracts went to the unions that were working them before the privatization project because I didn't want to muddy the waters.

What are you talking about? We are already much more efficient than the private providers! The state would never "put us out to bid" because there is no way anyone could come in and replicate what we do (and they know this).

Or, someone would come along and say "sure, we'll do it even cheaper", take the money, pay the executives, burn the place to the ground and then default on their end of the contract.

Standard privatization practice.

500 webevintage  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:09:18pm

re: #472 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Oh boy...

DeMint: Sexually Active Unmarried Women And Gay Teachers Should Be Barred From Classrooms

DeMint really misses the "good old days"*
What an ass of a human being.


*of course the good old days were never as good as we remember...

501 BongGhazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:09:50pm

Here's a Los Angeles Times story from four years ago that seems somewhat relevant. It's a bet less, uh, rah-rah than the company flyer linked to above.

Indianapolis reached a $1.5-billion, 20-year agreement with Veolia to run the city's waterworks in 2002. The contract is the largest of its kind in North America.

Within the first year, customer complaints nearly tripled and the company admitted mailing more than 15,000 incorrect bills. Inadequate maintenance caused hundreds of fire hydrants to freeze, hampering efforts to put out fires that consumed a church and other buildings.

Then, on Jan. 6, 2005, heavy rains swelled the White River and triggered a chain of system failures at the White River Treatment Plant. Officials issued a boil-water advisory, 40,000 schoolchildren took an unscheduled holiday and residents of the nation's 12th largest city learned they could no longer take their tap water for granted.

A federal grand jury, meanwhile, is investigating allegations that Veolia's Indianapolis unit falsified water-quality data.

-- Los Angeles Times, May 29, 2006

Water, water, everywhere...

502 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:09:57pm

re: #497 st. louisville cards

You seem to be confusing libertarianism with anarchism.

Plutocracy under the guise of democracy is a form of government. It is not anarchy.

503 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:10:08pm

re: #499 iossarian

What are you talking about? We are already much more efficient than the private providers! The state would never "put us out to bid" because there is no way anyone could come in and replicate what we do (and they know this).

Or, someone would come along and say "sure, we'll do it even cheaper", take the money, pay the executives, burn the place to the ground and then default on their end of the contract.

Standard privatization practice.

I was just asking, not suggesting. In Indy when they put the works out to bid the unions won 2 of the biggest contracts. They could do the work cheaper working for themselves than they could doing it for the government. I don't know how only that it ended up saving jobs and saving money.

504 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:10:54pm

#487 RogueOne

Winner! Finally someone with an answer to the question. Then you wouldn't mind having your industry put out to bid? I neglected to mention that in Indpls the electric and gas contracts went to the unions that were working them before the privatization project because I didn't want to muddy the waters.

Um... universities already are "put out to bid", in the sense that the students select which universities they attend, and pay accordingly. You aren't even making sense.

505 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:10:56pm

OK So I see a house on fire. I live in Olbion County, Tennessee. It's my neighbors house and the fire department tells me they can't respond because they didn't pay the 75 dollar fee.

The next day they discover two bodies in the charred home.

So, does this mean they'll just watch a house go up in flames knowing that there might be people inside the home?

506 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:11:36pm

re: #501 BongCrodny

Here's a Los Angeles Times story from four years ago that seems somewhat relevant. It's a bet less, uh, rah-rah than the company flyer linked to above.

Water, water, everywhere...

They found the problem was with a city owned utility up the river, 2 of them actually. One of them, city owned and operated, also caused a fish kill that year that cost millions to clean up.

507 darthstar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:11:55pm

Just sent the following email to Jack Conway:


I sent you a donation, I didn't sleep with you. Win the race and send Rand back to his eyecharts, but please stop asking me for money.

At least the Democrats are only hounding me electronically...somehow, the GOP got my home address and they think I support them, so I get 5lbs of paper for the recycler every week from them.

508 st. louisville cards  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:11:58pm

re: #468 iossarian

Is this sarcasm?
you do know that while it is called a "public institution", it really isn't.

509 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:11:59pm

re: #496 RogueOne

ONE 3rd party says the water could be better...so freaking what? I thought I made it clear that everyone else, including your beloved government, says it's better than fine. If all you have to hang your head on is that one 3rd party report to argue that privatization is a failure then like I said previously, knock yourself out.

Yeah, that FBI, always trying to carry water for the liberals. /

510 iossarian  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:12:02pm

re: #503 RogueOne

OK, I see what you mean.

In our case, we could probably get an initial boost from going independent (though not a very big one).

That short-term gain would very quickly be eliminated by the loss of precisely those aspects of being a public organization that allow us to be efficient.

511 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:12:18pm

It's not just a house we're talking about. It's called life safety for a reason. Fires mean involve people lives and serious injuries. Sitting around arguing about 75 dollars is not the domain of people involved in saving peoples lives.

512 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:12:52pm

re: #497 st. louisville cards

You seem to be confusing libertarianism with anarchism.

Lol, he's not confused.

513 iossarian  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:13:21pm

re: #508 st. louisville cards

Is this sarcasm?
you do know that while it is called a "public institution", it really isn't.

Um, I suspect that I know more about whether my institution is "public" or "private" than you do.

But, if I have misunderstood the meaning of the word "public" as it applies to higher education institutions, please enlighten me.

514 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:13:30pm

re: #509 Fozzie Bear

Yeah, that FBI, always trying to carry water for the liberals. /

I don't think you're paying attention.

515 st. louisville cards  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:13:51pm

re: #502 eclectic infidel

Oh, I see, only the wealthy can afford $75.....

516 tradewind  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:14:32pm

Here's the thing:
Obion Co. is completely ( but for Union City, not exactly a metroplex) a rural area, those have always depended upon ' volunteer ' FDs.
Another point: we pay no state income tax in TN. 75 bucks for firefighting is a drop in the bucket.
Bet they sign up next time.

517 RogueOne  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:15:02pm

K. I'm off, thanks for the lively discussion.

518 webevintage  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:16:58pm

re: #293 Max D. Reinhardt

You can go into any emergency room in the US and get care. The Supreme Court ruled that an ER can't turn anyone away.

You get "emergency care" at an emergency room.
You cannot go into an emergency room and get an cancer diagnosis or radiation/chemo.
If you faint they might say "wow your blood pressure is high, here is a scrip" but they will not do the follow up to make sure the meds are working or help figure out where to go next with treatment.

You get emergency treatment at an emergency room NOT health care.

519 sagehen  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:17:00pm

re: #462 RogueOne

Still waiting for someone, maybe you, to tell me what service that only the feds can provide superior to the private industry. Any answer other than "blind ideology" that "government rules!"?

Every time I've ever had to have dealings with a cop, I've been more than satisfied with the outcome. When I've had to have dealings with private security, maybe 1/3 of the time there's a satisfactory outcome.

520 Cheechako  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:17:30pm

Here's another example to discuss.

Complaints about private firefighting miss the point

Is this "fair" to everyone?

521 jayzee  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:17:41pm

re: #505 Gus 802

OK So I see a house on fire. I live in Olbion County, Tennessee. It's my neighbors house and the fire department tells me they can't respond because they didn't pay the 75 dollar fee.

The next day they discover two bodies in the charred home.

So, does this mean they'll just watch a house go up in flames knowing that there might be people inside the home?

I actually can't believe there wasn't a humane way of doing this. Again, I think the municipality is right for charging people for their service, that don't pay taxes and reside there, but there has to be something they could do (tax lien, fine, something) that would have been just.

522 b_snark  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:17:52pm

re: #393 Fozzie Bear

Can you explain where you get the idea that for-profit companies are inherently more efficient? What gives you so much faith that private industry can do better, for profit, that which the government can do?

Perhaps the word efficient needs to be better defined, something those who use it as a catch all phase in bolstering their privatization arguments tend to avoid. We are supposed to assume it means only the fat is removed leaving well paid, highly competent and enthusiastic employees to run the business without using more time, infrastructure and assets than is necessary to do a bang up, on time, within budget job.

What it means in reality is a group of underpaid, over worked, bored or stressed employees prone to making mistakes, and a business with fewer services, but more PR and a health profit margin for the shareholders.

It would be nice if businesses stopped when they successfully trimmed the fat, or came up with an innovative approach, but competition and the needs of shareholders forces most companies to go well beyond that.

523 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:18:53pm

911 what is the nature of your emergency?

My house is on fire! Please send the fire department here right away!

Please hold while I check to see your account status.

[Sound of Muzak]

[15 minutes later]

I'm sorry sir but our computers are slow today. I see your account is up to date. We'll have an engine company there right away.

=====

Engine company arrives 15 minutes after that. Elapsed time was 30 minutes from initial contact with 911. Family payed the 75 bucks but the house burned down to the ground anyway.

524 darthstar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:19:38pm

Downsizing again? You betcha!


Slow ticket sales have bumped Sarah Palin's appearance next week in Jacksonville to a smaller venue.

"An Evening of Hope with Sarah Palin" was moved from the 2,936-seat Moran Theatre to the 609-seat Terry Theatre. Both theaters are part of the Times-Union Center for the Performing Arts.


[Link: jacksonville.com...]

525 HappyBenghazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:20:40pm

re: #524 darthstar

Downsizing again? You betcha!


[Link: jacksonville.com...]

Evening of Hope? I thought hope was bad. Or is that hope and change?

526 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:21:10pm

re: #521 jayzee

I actually can't believe there wasn't a humane way of doing this. Again, I think the municipality is right for charging people for their service, that don't pay taxes and reside there, but there has to be something they could do (tax lien, fine, something) that would have been just.

The humane and sane approach would be to show up, get the homeowner to sign the back of an envelope statement, then put it out. Let the city bill him a few thousand dollars for the jobs and let the lawyers settle it. This is the second home let burn since 2008. Idiots.

527 darthstar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:21:15pm

re: #524 darthstar

Never mind...just realized that was from August and not a new downsizing.

529 JeffM70  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:21:44pm

I have to say I don't imagine too many libertarians would advocate emergency services on a subscription basis. At most they would advocate using taxpayer money to contract with a private entity where all residents are guaranteed emergency service.

530 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:22:09pm

re: #519 sagehen

Every time I've ever had to have dealings with a cop, I've been more than satisfied with the outcome. When I've had to have dealings with private security, maybe 1/3 of the time there's a satisfactory outcome.

It's all about incentives. If you have an hour to listen to a fascinating and horrifying tale, check this out.

531 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:22:17pm

re: #515 st. louisville cards

Oh, I see, only the wealthy can afford $75...

Try to look at the bigger picture, where every single public service is no longer paid for with local government levied taxes. The Police, FD, emergency medical service, street cleaning, animal control, etc is all private. That's going to add up.

I don't know why the home owner didn't pay the $75, maybe it was a hardship, maybe they figured they should be covered by merely paying local taxes. It still doesn't make it right that the FD allowed the house to burn to the ground, especially with the home owner offering to cut a check to the FD at the scene.

532 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:22:51pm

re: #526 Decatur Deb

The humane and sane approach would be to show up, get the homeowner to sign the back of an envelope statement, then put it out. Let the city bill him a few thousand dollars for the jobs and let the lawyers settle it. This is the second home let burn since 2008. Idiots.

having been through a house fire, I'm not sure what I would do if a bunch of firefighters just stood and let my house burn

It would probably involve things I'm not allowed to say here

533 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:23:43pm

re: #532 WindUpBird

having been through a house fire, I'm not sure what I would do if a bunch of firefighters just stood and let my house burn

It would probably involve things I'm not allowed to say here

Like punching the fire chief? I'd say the man was rather justified.

534 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:24:10pm

re: #515 st. louisville cards

Oh, I see, only the wealthy can afford $75...

Are you one of those guys who stirs the pot and then disappears from LGf before you get banned?

I just want to know what I'm dealing with here

535 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:25:12pm

re: #533 Fozzie Bear

Like punching the fire chief? I'd say the man was rather justified.

Now imagine someone being

trapped inside that home while the firefighters watch it burn

536 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:26:12pm

re: #495 PT Barnum

Sure. Government can provide services in places where private industry won't bother because the cost benefit ratio isn't there,whether or not those services are essential. It's not that private industry can't provide those services more efficiently, it just won't.

ding ding ding

537 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:26:13pm

re: #535 WindUpBird

Now imagine someone being

trapped inside that home while the firefighters watch it burn

Hey. Was thinking. How much you want to bet that some people will change their tune if they find out this guy was a military veteran?

538 HappyBenghazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:28:03pm

re: #528 WindUpBird

Wow, I wonder why rubes across America still think gay teachers will corrupt their children

Or women who have sex before marriage. Seriously, if people want to know why I think "small government conservatives" like Mr. DeMint are full of shit this is why. How does he expect to regulate this? "Ma'am we're going to need to look at your hymen to see if you've had sex ever." "Uh excuse me." And nice double standard too. I notice he didn't say anything about bachelors who have sex with women. Seriously Jim DeMint is a stupid fool.

539 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:28:38pm

The county should have just contracted with the city and added it to the taxes.

They set this situation up to be, uh, flammable.

540 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:28:47pm

Korean War veteran's home burns down as firefighters watch. Man did not pay 75 dollar fire protection LEVY!!11ty Democrat mayor of Olbion County refuses to answer questions from Fox News!!11ty

//

541 webevintage  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:28:58pm

re: #533 Fozzie Bear

Like punching the fire chief? I'd say the man was rather justified.

I think that was just the invisible hand of the free market at work there.
Let my house burn down = punch in the face

542 wrenchwench  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:29:27pm

re: #529 JeffM70

I have to say I don't imagine too many libertarians would advocate emergency services on a subscription basis. At most they would advocate using taxpayer money to contract with a private entity where all residents are guaranteed emergency service.

You underestimate libertarians.

543 st. louisville cards  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:30:20pm

re: #513 iossarian

As it refers to higher education, no. As it refers to the public/private debate, yes.

544 Ojoe  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:30:26pm

It was not Christian to let that man's house burn down.

So there.

545 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:31:05pm

re: #544 Ojoe

It was not Christian to let that man's house burn down.

So there.

That sounds good even for a heathen like me.

546 iossarian  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:31:16pm

re: #539 EmmmieG

The county should have just contracted with the city and added it to the taxes.

They set this situation up to be, uh, flammable.

The whole reason that people move out of cities and into townships is because the townships skimp on services, instead relying on nonsense schemes such as the one which we are discussing here.

If the county started taxing people for services (as they should) people would just move on. It's the race to the bottom, once again.

547 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:31:22pm

re: #538 HappyWarrior

Married or unmarried, straight or gay, teachers shouldn't be discussing their sexual lives in the classroom, with the one obvious exception of acknowledging the arrival of a child.*

Even then, the sex part of it can be ignored to the benefit of everyone.

*Unless, like my mother's teacher, you are in your 40's and overweight and don't know you are pregnant until you deliver a baby in the art supplies closet. True story.

548 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:31:51pm

re: #538 HappyWarrior

The one about the women not having sex and being able to teach is so 19th century...literally. When I go to old town San Diego they have the rules regarding the hiring of female teachers and one of them is she can't be dating or living with a man.

549 HappyBenghazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:32:04pm

I mean the guy offered to pay at the scene. Seriously watching hte house burn down like that. Just ain't right honestly.

550 darthstar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:32:42pm

It'll be interesting to see if his insurance company, after paying his claim, goes after the fire department and the city for reimbursement...that could get costly.

551 HappyBenghazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:33:37pm

re: #547 EmmmieG

Married or unmarried, straight or gay, teachers shouldn't be discussing their sexual lives in the classroom, with the one obvious exception of acknowledging the arrival of a child.*

Even then, the sex part of it can be ignored to the benefit of everyone.

*Unless, like my mother's teacher, you are in your 40's and overweight and don't know you are pregnant until you deliver a baby in the art supplies closet. True story.

Well I assume DeMint even though he is a dumbshit wouldn't have the teacehrs disclosing their sex lives to the students but rather to the people who interview them. Still though, how on earth does he expect to find out whether women are having sex or not or whether the person's gay or lesbian. It's stupid as hell. This is backwards even for DeMint.

552 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:33:56pm

re: #548 Dreggas

The one about the women not having sex and being able to teach is so 19th century...literally. When I go to old town San Diego they have the rules regarding the hiring of female teachers and one of them is she can't be dating or living with a man.

Does she have a letter from a respected clergyman saying she comes from a virtuous upbringing?

553 darthstar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:34:08pm

re: #549 HappyWarrior

I mean the guy offered to pay at the scene. Seriously watching hte house burn down like that. Just ain't right honestly.

Showing up only to say they weren't going to help doesn't make sense. I'm sure somebody on that crew wanted to pull a hose off the truck and start working.

554 iossarian  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:34:13pm

re: #543 st. louisville cards

As it refers to higher education, no. As it refers to the public/private debate, yes.

OK, I have to leave so unfortunately I will never know why a public higher education institution is not a public organization.

PS: We are not owned by private individuals (owners/shareholders). This, among many other factors, makes us a public organization.

Bye for now.

555 b_snark  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:34:27pm

re: #450 Gus 802

Lucky. A new MOBO sometimes wreaks havoc to software. Especially anything from MS. Typically they allow only like 5 hardware changes or maybe even less. When the system reads new hardware it assumes you transferred the software to another computer.

They consider a new mobo to be a new computer. The software is licensed to be used on the original computer only.

556 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:35:01pm

re: #550 darthstar

It'll be interesting to see if his insurance company, after paying his claim, goes after the fire department and the city for reimbursement...that could get costly.

As discussed up thread, why would his insurance company pay him anything when he failed to take proper precautions in the event of a fire?

557 Ojoe  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:35:02pm

re: #545 Gus 802

It sometimes galls me that the far conservatives invoke Christianity, which really is a radical thing, if you ask me.

558 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:35:18pm

re: #551 HappyWarrior

Well I assume DeMint even though he is a dumbshit wouldn't have the teacehrs disclosing their sex lives to the students but rather to the people who interview them. Still though, how on earth does he expect to find out whether women are having sex or not or whether the person's gay or lesbian. It's stupid as hell. This is backwards even for DeMint.

Good point. Also, the double standard is beyond annoying.

559 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:35:44pm

re: #535 WindUpBird

Now imagine someone being

trapped inside that home while the firefighters watch it burn

The reader's comments in the local media mentioned 4 pets heard inside. Could be just case-making. (The comments from the locals were strongly anti-chief.)

560 HappyBenghazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:35:55pm

re: #553 darthstar

Showing up only to say they weren't going to help doesn't make sense. I'm sure somebody on that crew wanted to pull a hose off the truck and start working.

Yeah, I am sure there was some divide on what to do amongst the firefighters but the person in charge decided not to do so. I don't know. The whole thing seems ridiculous to me. I'm not going to debate the merits of whether firefighting should be a public or private service or not but it just seems ridiculous not do anything when there is a fire burning.

561 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:35:56pm

re: #555 b_sharp

They consider a new mobo to be a new computer. The software is licensed to be used on the original computer only.

Hey guy! Thanks for the moral support even if I didn't need it after all. How did your gig go? Have you thought about running 220 through the keyboard so if they do something they're not supposed to, they get an electric shock and if they do something right they get a pellet?

562 b_snark  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:36:35pm

re: #455 Obdicut

My mobo has a built-in weirdness; it misreads the timing on my RAM, so I have to manually set it every time the CMOS gets cleared (as it usually does during a move).

It kind of acts like a built-in security feature, though-- there's no physical way to make the computer boot in its current configuration without making that manual change.

Why does your BIOS get cleared? It should retain it's settings for months on battery.

563 Ojoe  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:37:07pm

Put out the fire & charge double.

Free enterprise at its best.

564 webevintage  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:37:07pm

re: #547 EmmmieG

Married or unmarried, straight or gay, teachers shouldn't be discussing their sexual lives in the classroom, with the one obvious exception of acknowledging the arrival of a child.*

Even then, the sex part of it can be ignored to the benefit of everyone.

*Unless, like my mother's teacher, you are in your 40's and overweight and don't know you are pregnant until you deliver a baby in the art supplies closet. True story.

Do teachers talk about their sex lives?
The only thing I can think of is sharing that one might be gone for a week or so on a honeymoon?
Maybe if a gay teacher* shared how much it an suck to be a gay teenager in a discussion about bullies? Hmmmm, trying to come up with other scenarios.

*I think it would be better for everyone to know who is gay so that
A. everyone knows that yes they do actually know gays and yeah, they are normal and not thinking about have the gay sex with you 24/7
and
B. so that gay teens realize that it is OK to be gay and that there is a life after high school.

565 HappyBenghazi  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:37:57pm

re: #558 EmmmieG

Good point. Also, the double standard is beyond annoying.

Yep, I mean I love how he justifies his homophobic bullshit by saying well I don't think women who have sex before marriage should be teaching either. Totally neglects to mention about men who have sex before marriage. And furthermore why should it be the government's business who teachers are having consentual sex with? Seriously DeMint needs to stop acting like he's Mr. SMall Government. He's an authoritarian.

566 b_snark  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:38:11pm

re: #460 Varek Raith

Ever see a power supply frag an entire PC?
Awesome.
Then it wasn't awesome.

Yes.

Ever seen 5 bridges on a Mobo go up in flames? Cool. (It was a customer's system)

567 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:39:03pm

re: #566 b_sharp

Yes.

Ever seen 5 bridges on a Mobo go up in flames? Cool. (It was a customer's system)

OUCH!!!! That hurt just to read.

568 webevintage  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:40:17pm

re: #559 Decatur Deb

The reader's comments in the local media mentioned 4 pets heard inside. Could be just case-making. (The comments from the locals were strongly anti-chief.)

I would do more then just punch someone in the face if they could have helped save my pets and they did not.

569 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:40:51pm

re: #566 b_sharp

Yes.

Ever seen 5 bridges on a Mobo go up in flames? Cool. (It was a customer's system)

Do you like to watch movies about gladiators, Billy?

570 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:40:54pm

Howabout 75.00 a year for fire fighting services. If you don't pay it, the fire fighting fee is $15,000.00?

Of course, then it is billed to the folks who can't afford $75.00 per year.

So; okay. It's a stupid idea.

So, why did I hit post? Not sure, but I am going to.

571 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:42:19pm

re: #568 webevintage

I would do more then just punch someone in the face if they could have helped save my pets and they did not.

Seems to me that the firemen could be charged with animal cruelty in that case.

572 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:42:27pm

re: #570 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Howabout 75.00 a year for fire fighting services. If you don't pay it, the fire fighting fee is $15,000.00?

Of course, then it is billed to the folks who can't afford $75.00 per year.

So; okay. It's a stupid idea.

So, why did I hit post? Not sure, but I am going to.

You already did!

You avatar picture

you look ,,,, different!

Something you want to tell us about a recent surgery, perhaps !?!?!

573 Kragar  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:42:34pm

Angle's defense about leaked call: Bitch set me up

Cleta Mitchell, a top Republican lawyer representing Sharron Angle's Senate bid in Nevada, told TPM this morning that the campaign ignored her advice about avoiding getting involved with Tea Party of Nevada candidate Scott Ashjian.

Mitchell said in a phone interview that the meeting -- which Ashjian recorded and leaked to the press -- was "a setup."

574 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:43:15pm

re: #568 webevintage

I would do more then just punch someone in the face if they could have helped save my pets and they did not.

I'm suspicious of that angle, because the fire was reported to be slow in getting to the structure. Smacks of bad local ju-ju. This crap will rebound through the communities on the TN-KY border for a long time--they have good memories.

575 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:43:42pm

re: #572 sattv4u2

Watch it, knucklehead! That is me poor dying sainted mother you be disparagin' there!

576 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:44:31pm

re: #575 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Watch it, knucklehead! That is me poor dying sainted mother you be disparagin' there!

Sorry ,, caught me off guard

Prayers to you and her, of course!

577 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:46:48pm

re: #576 sattv4u2

She'd smile to know I just made you really, really uncomfortable.

578 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:47:31pm

re: #564 webevintage

My brain is slowly leaking out, so I'm going to log off now, but I believe most teachers don't talk about it, because they are professionals.

The classroom should be a place free from the sexual pressures that teenagers are getting from so many places.

Of course, if they aren't talking about it, then it doesn't matter what they do privately...

579 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:47:56pm

re: #577 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

She'd smile to know I just made you really, really uncomfortable.

Well,, that ,, and my undies are riding up!!

580 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:54:04pm

This is funny. From South Fulton, TN municode:

SECTION
11-201. Fortune telling, etc.
11-201. Fortune telling, etc. It shall be unlawful for any person to conduct the business of, solicit for, or ply the trade of fortune teller, clairvoyant, hypnotist, spiritualist, palmist, phrenologist, or other mystic endowed with supernatural powers. (1985 Code, § 10-703, modified)

[Link: www.mtas.tennessee.edu...]

581 st. louisville cards  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:54:56pm

re: #531 eclectic infidel

Try to look at the bigger picture, where every single public service is no longer paid for with local government levied taxes. The Police, FD, emergency medical service, street cleaning, animal control, etc is all private. That's going to add up.

Well if the added up cost are more, then you aren't outsourcing and privatizing right.

My local taxes pay for our police and fire department, plus our community center & pool. Other services, such as road repairs and trash collection have been privatized. The privatized services are cheaper and better. E.g. We now have a recycling collection along with the trash & yard waste pick up is weekly instead of monthly. Now my city could save money on its police force by just paying the county police to be their local police force (it is done by several cities where I live), but those of us who live here prefer our own police force, so we pay extra taxes.


I don't know why the home owner didn't pay the $75, maybe it was a hardship, maybe they figured they should be covered by merely paying local taxes. It still doesn't make it right that the FD allowed the house to burn to the ground, especially with the home owner offering to cut a check to the FD at the scene.

Its quite clear that the people did know they had to pay the $75. It was a choice they made.

582 Gus  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:55:15pm

No hooting!

(c) Yelling, shouting, hooting, etc. Yelling, shouting, hooting,
whistling, or singing on the public streets, particularly between the hours
of 11:00 P.M. and 7:00 A.M., or at any time or place so as to annoy or disturb the quiet, comfort, or repose of any persons in any hospital,
dwelling, hotel, or other type of residence, or of any person in the vicinity.
(d) Pets. The keeping of any animal, bird, or fowl which by...

583 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:55:33pm

re: #570 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

How about this
Like most any other property related tax-Penalties and a lien. Ordinary collection agency maybe. There are so many simple answers I'm still a tiny bit suspicious of the story.

584 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:58:54pm

re: #570 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

re: #583 Rightwingconspirator

How about this
Like most any other property related tax-Penalties and a lien. Ordinary collection agency maybe. There are so many simple answers I'm still a tiny bit suspicious of the story.

I wonder if the homeowners insurance company will get involved

A), could the firefighters have saved at least part or most of the structure, thereby making the repairs less $$$$
B) does the homeowner default on his insurance (in the insurance companies eyes) for not doing due diligence (paying the $75)!?!?!

585 st. louisville cards  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:59:01pm

re: #554 iossarian

Well all not-for-profit organizations aren't owned by anyone. So I guess that makes the United way and the Catholic Church public institutions...

586 b_snark  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 2:59:55pm

re: #561 PT Barnum

Hey guy! Thanks for the moral support even if I didn't need it after all. How did your gig go? Have you thought about running 220 through the keyboard so if they do something they're not supposed to, they get an electric shock and if they do something right they get a pellet?

Glad to almost help.

Been there, done that. It just added to the human spontaneous combustion myth. I still have a bucket of pellets.

I'm still trying to get Ubuntu to run the VM correctly. It ain't going as planned.

587 b_snark  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 3:03:23pm

re: #567 PT Barnum

OUCH!!! That hurt just to read.

It was a cheap ECS board. I had an identical board kicking around so it didn't cost them much.

588 tradewind  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 3:08:34pm

re: #550 darthstar
It'll be interesting to see if his insurance company had a requirement in the policy that the homeowner subscribe to the fire protection service./

589 tradewind  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 3:11:07pm

re: #522 b_sharp
FedX.
All you need to know.......

590 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 3:11:25pm

re: #588 tradewind

It'll be interesting to see if his insurance company had a requirement in the policy that the homeowner subscribe to the fire protection service./

Beat you to it (584)

591 zoidberg  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 3:24:48pm
unfettered free enterprise reigns supreme

Wrong. Just because a government agency contracts out the work, it does NOT make it "unfettered free enterprise".

In Victoria (Australia) our ambulance service is a subscription based service. You pay an annual subscription fee of $75 for individuals or $150 for families. If you don't pay the annual subscription, they'll still provide service when you need it but they'll charge you through the nose. A ride in a chopper, for example, will cost you many thousands of dollars. They run ad campaigns on TV as well to tell people this.

Our ambulance service is an example of good government policy and Charles' example is an example of bad government policy. At the end of the day, they're both government policies and should not be mistaken for free enterprise; I think Charles is showing his prejudices here though and is having an unfair bash at "unfettered free enterprise".

Another unfair bash is to equate "unfettered free enterprise" with Conservitism. Conservitives may like to latch on to "free market capitalism" but they contradict themselves when don't allow the same kind of freedoms to homosexuals, rape victims (abortion issue), etc. I don't buy their bullshit.

592 dragonfire1981  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 3:26:15pm

re: #205 publicityStunted

Can I guess you are talking about the infamous Highway 407 in Toronto?

Because that was a big freaking mess.

593 St. Louisville Cards  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 3:33:23pm

re: #591 zoidberg

Well said, if this was a case of the evils of out of control capitalism the people's house would have been saved, but they would have had to sign something agreeing to pay all the back payments along with an enormous late fee.

594 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 3:43:30pm

re: #591 zoidberg

Our ambulance service is an example of good government policy and Charles' example is an example of bad government policy. At the end of the day, they're both government policies and should not be mistaken for free enterprise; I think Charles is showing his prejudices here though and is having an unfair bash at "unfettered free enterprise".

It's government acting as though it's a free enterprise service, though. The way they're behaving is free market.

595 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 3:45:05pm

re: #562 b_sharp

Why does your BIOS get cleared? It should retain it's settings for months on battery.

I think the CMOS jumper thingy is off, and clears every time the mobo gets jiggled significantly.

I could investigate, but it's a quick fix, so what the hey.

596 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 3:47:45pm

re: #162 Obdicut

Precisely my point. Worst of both is hardly a fair comparison for Think Progress to make.

597 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 3:48:38pm

re: #498 Big Steve

The firefighters did come. And watched the house burn to the ground.

Then they eventually had to fight the fire after it had spread to someone who had paid.

Fighting it before it had spread would have been cheaper.

598 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 3:49:36pm

re: #596 Rightwingconspirator

I don't see them making a comparison. They make it clear it's about a governmental service from the start. They're talking about two different ideologies.

599 zoidberg  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 3:52:09pm

re: #594 Obdicut

It's government acting as though it's a free enterprise service, though. The way they're behaving is free market.

How exactly are they behaving like it's free market? Just because they fucked up and someone's house got burnt down for no good reason? With the same reasoning, does the Victorian ambulance service behave like a free market?

Government playing "free market" does not make it free market no matter how hard they try.

Just in case anyone's interested, here's an example of good government policy -

Youtube Video
600 Bob Levin  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 3:53:17pm

re: #89 Fozzie Bear

There are many ways this could have been prevented--besides hiring people who have a sense of moral decency.

But, off the top of my head--Homeowners Insurance could cover the cost of fire protection, or, there could be a yearly fee attached to a mortgage to cover the cost of fire protection. Just like auto insurance is mandatory, residency insurance could be mandatory, renters included, which could cover fire protection. There could be a hefty charge for fire fighting if you don't pay the standard fee up front.

And I remember discussing cases exactly like this when I was in high school. This isn't the Free Market at work as much as people acting like damn fools.

601 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 3:54:54pm

re: #599 zoidberg

How exactly are they behaving like it's free market? Just because they fucked up and someone's house got burnt down for no good reason?

The subscription-based fire service is a free-market model.


Government playing "free market" does not make it free market no matter how hard they try.

Um, okay. They are acting as though they are a private enterprise in this case. They are wrong to do so.

602 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 3:58:06pm

re: #205 publicityStunted

Ontario sold off a toll highway to a foreign corporation and all that resulted was the province losing out on a great revenue stream while the jerkward foreign corp jacked toll rates up to the stratosphere. I'll never forgive the right-wing political party responsible for that travesty.

I got to be homeless thanks to that political party.

603 zoidberg  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 4:05:42pm

re: #601 Obdicut

The subscription-based fire service is a free-market model.

Sure, but that's where the similarity ends.

Um, okay. They are acting as though they are a private enterprise in this case. They are wrong to do so.

No; you're also having an unfair bash at free markets/private enterprise. They are wrong to adopt the wrong policy of turning up to a burning house with a fire truck and standing aside whilst they watch it burn. It is not inherent of the free market, it's inherent of sucky policies.

604 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 4:09:02pm

re: #603 zoidberg

Sure, but that's where the similarity ends.

What similarity? I'm not getting you.

No; you're also having an unfair bash at free markets/private enterprise.

I'm really not. Saying that fire departments aren't suitable for a free market/private enterprise model is not bashing them in the least.

They are wrong to adopt the wrong policy of turning up to a burning house with a fire truck and standing aside whilst they watch it burn. It is not inherent of the free market, it's inherent of sucky policies.

The problem is the entire subscription model. If you have that, you can't still put out the fires of those who don't pay. This is not a situation that admits the free market.

605 lostlakehiker  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 4:14:53pm

re: #254 subsailor68

There are a couple of issues with the TP story that seem to be in conflict with the local account they linked to in their story.

First, the property was in Obion County, not the city of South Fulton. There is no indication in the linked story that the fire department is a private company (the story uses the term "local fire department").

The story notes that the city of Fulton offers fire service outside city limits, but charges an annual fee for doing so. That's not necessarily an unreasonable position, if the fact is that city residents receive the service via taxes, while county residents - not subject to city taxes - are required to pay an annual subscription.

It's possible that the real issue here is the unwillingness of the county (Obion) government to contract with the city for fire service - which one would expect would be paid for by taxing county residents via the county government and using those funds to contract with the city.

If that's the case, one would expect county commissioners to revisit their policy. It may be unreasonable to hold the city responsible - as it would be their citizens/taxpayers funding fire service for those outside the city who have no tax liability.

That said, I agree with the posters who raised the issue of moral hazard. Once the department responded, they had a moral obligation to use their expertise to put out the fire, and deal with the legal/funding issues after the fact.

They responded because there might have been lives at stake. Once it became clear that only property and money was involved, they stood aside.

How can it be an "outrage" when free people make decisions freely and then live with the consequences? If everyone knows that those who pay and help cover the costs of the fire team, and those who don't pay, get the same service, there won't BE a fire team by and by. The money that would have sustained it will have evaporated.

Short term, the right thing to do would seem to be to save the guy's house. Long term, a policy of sticking with this approach means that whenever there's a fire, and whether there are lives at risk or not, the fire just burns. Because there simply ISN'T a fire truck.

Inside a city, we have to have fire departments, and they have to put out all fires, because fires spread. So, we levy taxes. But the city here doesn't have the authority to levy taxes on the countryside. The county can levy its own taxes and build its own fire department if it likes. It can enter into an agreement with the city, and levy taxes sufficient to cover the cost of that. Or it can let each homeowner make his own decision.

Nobody did anything wrong here, and there isn't any outrage. Just a lesson: $75 is a bargain. Take it.

606 Lidane  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 4:15:03pm

re: #604 Obdicut

The problem is the entire subscription model. If you have that, you can't still put out the fires of those who don't pay. This is not a situation that admits the free market.

Which is why privatization only goes so far. Privatizing emergency services, or placing them behind a subscription model is stupid, and this case illustrates why.

I'm enough of a capitalist pig to be getting an MBA right now, and I think the whole idea of a bunch of firefighters showing up at my house and refusing to do anything while it burned because I didn't pay some ridiculous subscription fee is flat wrong. I don't blame the owner of the house for punching someone after it was over. I probably would've done the same.

607 FranSeaLou  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 4:18:41pm

The husband of a co-worker of mine used to be fire chief for a small rural department in Oregon. The were a few people way out in the middle of nowhere who had their choice of a couple different fire districts to pay into. One lady refused to pay for any fire protection. Of course, she had a fire. The fire district responded, put out the fire and sent her a bill.

Fast forward years later and the fire district and the woman were still arguing in court. She didn't want to pay in advance and she sure as heck didn't want to pay after she used their services. Ultimately, the fire district received a judgment against her that remains unpaid.

608 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 4:19:58pm

re: #605 lostlakehiker

Didnja notice how the fire spread?

609 zoidberg  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 4:20:12pm

re: #604 Obdicut

What similarity? I'm not getting you.

Bad choice of words. All i'm saying that is sure, subscription services exist in the free market, but in this case it's still government policy - so we shouldn't make the mistake of assuming that this is the free market at play here when it is clearly not.


I'm really not. Saying that fire departments aren't suitable for a free market/private enterprise model is not bashing them in the least.

The problem is the entire subscription model. If you have that, you can't still put out the fires of those who don't pay. This is not a situation that admits the free market.

Well, before you said "It's government acting as though it's a free enterprise service, though. The way they're behaving is free market.". It sounded to me like you were making the same mistake that Charles did by assuming that the free market is to blame for this. What you're saying here is more along the lines of what i'd agree with - their subscription model sucks and only that, not the free market. Maybe they should adopt something like what Ambulance Victoria does.

610 Amory Blaine  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 4:21:34pm

Fires can grow out of control. It sounds like this homeowner tried to put the fire out with garden hoses in desperation and may have contained the fire. Now imagine this "service" in an urban setting, with millions of people who know that the regard for civic duty has sunk so low that not even a deadly fire will bring aid. Maybe they won't try to put the fire out.

This country is full of stupid fucking assholes.

611 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 4:21:43pm

re: #609 zoidberg

Bad choice of words. All i'm saying that is sure, subscription services exist in the free market, but in this case it's still government policy - so we shouldn't make the mistake of assuming that this is the free market at play here when it is clearly not.

And I didn't say it was the free market. So I'm unsure why you're hammering on that poni.

What you're saying here is more along the lines of what i'd agree with - their subscription model sucks and only that, not the free market. Maybe they should adopt something like what Ambulance Victoria does.

I'm sorry, but I really don't feel I'm making any sort of mistake. This is the situation that a free market approach to firefighting brings. This is historically true-- this is what would happen.

612 dmon  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 4:22:59pm

As a city firefighter I will tell you that our service doesnt stop at the city limit sign.. We routinely are dispatched to an address that is actually out of the city. That doesn't stop us from doing our jobs. If we tie up 20 firefighters for a few hours then we tie up 20 firefighters. I took on a profession that I love, and i do a good job out of pride, respect for those that I have followed.. If our chief told us not to put out a fire because we dont recieve tax revenue from the homeowner, we'd act like we didnt hear the radio traffic.

Anyone that could stand by and watch someones life go up in flames is nothing short of an asshole regardless of the situation. These guys dont deserve to call themselves firemen, simply because their actions show that they are not.

These guys do not represent my brothers and sisters in the fire service.

613 Lidane  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 4:23:39pm

re: #607 FranSeaLou

It's one thing to refuse to pay a legitimate bill for services. That's wrong. That woman should absolutely pay the bill she was sent after they came to her house and put out a fire.

The problem lies with putting emergency services under a subscription model in the first place. What's next? Subscribing to a particular police precinct so they'll investigate when your house gets robbed? Subscribing to a particular court so they'll hear your case if you have a legitimate issue? It's wrong. Some things just don't need to be privatized, and emergency services are among them.

614 zoidberg  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 4:25:45pm

re: #611 Obdicut

And I didn't say it was the free market. So I'm unsure why you're hammering on that poni.

Ok, my mistake - i take it back; it just seemed to me that you were having a go at it just because of bad government policy.

615 dmon  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 4:26:27pm

If this had been an auto accident with people injured 5 feet from the cuty limit sign....do they just stop and turn around?

616 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 4:29:30pm

re: #614 zoidberg

Ok, my mistake - i take it back; it just seemed to me that you were having a go at it just because of bad government policy.

Well, I'm 'having a go' at private-market principles being applied in circumstances where they don't work. That's not 'having a go' at the private market in general.

617 sagehen  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 4:45:32pm

re: #607 FranSeaLou

Fast forward years later and the fire district and the woman were still arguing in court. She didn't want to pay in advance and she sure as heck didn't want to pay after she used their services. Ultimately, the fire district received a judgment against her that remains unpaid.

I'm sure they have a lien on the property; they'll get their money when the property is sold.

618 St. Louisville Cards  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 4:49:20pm

re: #606 Lidane

Which is why privatization only goes so far. Privatizing emergency services, or placing them behind a subscription model is stupid, and this case illustrates why.

I'm enough of a capitalist pig to be getting an MBA right now, and I think the whole idea of a bunch of firefighters showing up at my house and refusing to do anything while it burned because I didn't pay some ridiculous subscription fee is flat wrong. I don't blame the owner of the house for punching someone after it was over. I probably would've done the same.


This wasn't privatized, this was more of a city/county territorial issue. LGF linking from a left wing website instead of a news website has brought the privitazation issue into this. If it was privatized the people would still have part of a house...why? see below.

re: #594 Obdicut

re: #594 Obdicut

It's government acting as though it's a free enterprise service, though. The way they're behaving is free market.

But they aren't acting like it is a free market. It they were they'd know excatly how much it cost to put out the fire and they would have saved the house for X amount of money. Pretty much the same thing those evil capitalist at AAA do, I mean people in an auto emergency on the side of the road shouldn't be paying for a tow truck, the highway patrol should be helping them.

619 LotharBot  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 4:54:21pm

re: #618 St. Louisville Cards

they aren't acting like it is a free market. It they were they'd know excatly how much it cost to put out the fire and they would have saved the house for X amount of money.

Bingo.

Privatization doesn't need to result in the sort of insanity we see in this story. There are many possibilities for a private system that would've saved this house -- but this particular FD was stupid and chose not to use any of those methods, but to stand by and watch because of a stupid and badly-thought-out policy.

620 dmon  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 5:02:33pm

The big problem with private emergency services is staffing. A private company increases profit by reducing staffing, a company will cut staffing to bare bones then expect mutual aid from other jurisdictions to pick up the overflow. The problem comes in when the adjoining jurisdiction (whether public or private) gets pissed because they are supplying the manpower, while the private brings in the profit, we had the same issue with private EMS calling us to assist with scheduled transports from peoples homes, they understaffed, called us, then charged the customer, amazingly they stopped calling us when we started charging them $210 an hour for a ladder or engine crew to come help them.

621 Amory Blaine  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 5:03:30pm

Everyone knows this is the final result of privatization.

622 Amory Blaine  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 5:05:57pm

re: #620 dmon


Also, private companies can have policies and methods unknown or seen to city officials.

623 blueraven  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 5:07:11pm

re: #618 St. Louisville Cards

This wasn't privatized, this was more of a city/county territorial issue. LGF linking from a left wing website instead of a news website has brought the privitazation issue into this. If it was privatized the people would still have part of a house...why? see below.

re: #594 Obdicut

re: #594 Obdicut

But they aren't acting like it is a free market. It they were they'd know excatly how much it cost to put out the fire and they would have saved the house for X amount of money. Pretty much the same thing those evil capitalist at AAA do, I mean people in an auto emergency on the side of the road shouldn't be paying for a tow truck, the highway patrol should be helping them.

Really, you are comparing a tow service to a house burning down? C'mon!
I don't recall anyone ever proposing that the highway patrol should tow someones broken down ride. Bad, bad comparison.

However if a woman with children were stranded somewhere in the middle of the night, in a dangerous area, yes, I would expect the officers to assist them in some manner. Is that too much for you?

624 St. Louisville Cards  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 5:25:13pm

re: #620 dmon

The big problem with private emergency services is staffing. A private company increases profit by reducing staffing, a company will cut staffing to bare bones


What?

You increase profits by maximizing revenue and reducing costs. If you reduce staff it is because you are overstaffed. If you are understaffed, you have bad management.

625 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 5:43:48pm

re: #618 St. Louisville Cards

But they aren't acting like it is a free market. It they were they'd know excatly how much it cost to put out the fire and they would have saved the house for X amount of money.

That's not how a private market operates, necessarily. In this case, it was a subscription model, not a fee-for-service model. Things with subscription models often don't take payment on the spot.

626 emcesq  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 5:58:07pm

Totally infuriating - Eastern Europe used to hold the USA in such a high esteem. Watching this train wreck with TP and GOP and religious fanaticism on one side and Dems and their shenanigans on the other side. What a shame.
May as well call this Crapistan.

627 St. Louisville Cards  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 6:16:31pm

re: #625 Obdicut
But there is no subscription business model or any other business model here. It isn't a business or privatization situation. More than anything it is a government territorial issue. This fire department isn't set up as a business or looking to make a profit (there is no one to benefit from any profits).
If the fire department was privatized, you can bet that an emergency service fee would be in place. They would also sell fire prevention services and products along with other revenue streams.

I'm not against publicly funded fire and police departments (actually I'd prefer my local one's be publicly funded.) But using this story as an example of "privatization is bad" is dumb, because it isn't a privatization story.

628 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 6:29:39pm

re: #627 St. Louisville Cards

But there is no subscription business model or any other business model here

Yes, there is. That is what this fire department is using: a subscription model.

If the fire department was privatized, you can bet that an emergency service fee would be in place.

No, I can't, since that wasn't the case with the London fire brigades back in the days of private fire companies.

But using this story as an example of "privatization is bad" is dumb, because it isn't a privatization story.

Well, it's a good thing I'm using it as a case of "There are places where the free market business model doesn't work, and this is one of them."

629 St. Louisville Cards  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 6:58:59pm

re: #628 Obdicut

You do know there are privatized fire departments in the US today, so you don't have to use a B.S. example like this Tennessee case or 200 year old cases.
If the privatization is so bad and doesn't work, you should have no trouble finding examples of how bad they are and how they have let people's houses burn.

630 St. Louisville Cards  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 7:01:09pm

re: #628 Obdicut

I also forgot to mention, it is not a business model...because they are NOT a business.

631 Lidane  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 7:32:15pm

Looks like the writers over at National Review have been busy rationalizing this nonsense.

Unbelievable.

632 Pythagoras  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 7:51:25pm

The South Fulton fire department is NOT privatized. Read this (especially page 4):

[Link: troy.troytn.com...]

633 GatorAtLaw  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 8:03:42pm

I guess now we should have insurance companies paying out to people who aren't policyholders. It isn't their fault something bad happened!

634 Lidane  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 8:20:06pm

re: #633 GatorAtLaw

I guess now we should have insurance companies paying out to people who aren't policyholders. It isn't their fault something bad happened!

Insurance company =/= fire department.

What an asinine comparison.

635 st. louisville cards  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 8:30:13pm

re: #632 Pythagoras

um...did you read it? That is Obion County not South Fulton. South Fulton is a city fire department that tends to its tax paying citizens, it is not a private fire department. Again, if the South Fulton FD was set up to try to make money, they would have a chargeable price for emergencies.

This isn't an example of privatization it is an example of bad government. It appears that Obion County and South Fulton did not have policies and procedures in place to deal with situations like this. It is also an example of a homeowner trying to mooch off his neighbors paying for a service he wasn't paying for.

636 Lidane  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 8:51:20pm

re: #635 st. louisville cards

It is also an example of a homeowner trying to mooch off his neighbors paying for a service he wasn't paying for.

So you're fine with the fact that the fire department not only showed up, but stood there idly while his house burned to the ground, just because you think he was mooching off his neighbors when he called for help in an emergency? Seriously?

This was a dick move over a $75 fee. Nothing more.

They let his house burn to the ground and let the fire spread to the neighbors, BTW, when if they'd just intervened, the neighbors wouldn't have been affected at all and the house could have been saved. And it's a perfect example of why emergency services should never be subject to a subscription fee, or to privatization, or to any sort of shield over who gets them. They're emergency services for a reason.

The fire department should have just put out the fire, then charged him extra fines and fees on top of billing him for their time and services. From the sounds of it, he would have gladly agreed to anything to save his house. They should have gone with that and we wouldn't be having this discussion now.

637 st. louisville cards  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 8:55:34pm

re: #631 Lidane

can't say I disagree with their "nonsense".

As ThinkProgress noted, the case perfectly demonstrated conservative ideology, which is based around the idea of the on-your-own society and informs a policy agenda that primarily serves the well-off and privileged.

yes, in a country where 90% of people have cable, but $75 for fire protection is a luxury only affordable to the Rockefellers of the world.

638 Lidane  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 9:06:59pm

re: #637 st. louisville cards

It's not about anything being an unaffordable luxury. It's that some things, like the fire department coming to your house if your house catches on fire, shouldn't be subject to a shield or subscription fee or to any kind of privatization in determining who gets those services.

I asked this earlier, and I'll ask it again. What's next? Should we all pay a $75 opt-in fee to the local police precinct so they'll feel inclined to intervene while our homes are getting robbed, or if someone close to us is getting attacked? Should we pay an additional $75 opt-in fee to the criminal courts so that the robber or attacker gets prosecuted, and another $75 opt-in fee to the civil courts so that we can have any civil issues that might come up looked at by a judge?

Emergency services are a matter of public safety. The fire department had a duty to put out that fire, and should have done so. Period. Slap a bunch of additional fines and fees on the homeowner if you have to, but don't stand there like a bunch of assholes waiting for the house to burn down. That's inexcusable.

639 st. louisville cards  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 9:10:13pm

re: #636 Lidane

So you're fine with the fact that the fire department not only showed up, but stood there idly while his house burned to the ground, just because you think he was mooching off his neighbors when he called for help in an emergency? Seriously?

This was a dick move over a $75 fee. Nothing more.

They let his house burn to the ground and let the fire spread to the neighbors, BTW, when if they'd just intervened, the neighbors wouldn't have been affected at all and the house could have been saved. And it's a perfect example of why emergency services should never be subject to a subscription fee, or to privatization, or to any sort of shield over who gets them. They're emergency services for a reason.


I don't think he was mooching, Its a fact. He made the choice to not pay his $75, when he made that choice, he had to know 2 things (1) If there was a fire he was screwed or (2) the fire department wouldn't let his place burn, so why waste $75.

Everyone was out of the house and safe, so how is it an emergency? At the point that the fire department was there it was not a life threatening situation. So at that point I'm not so sure it is even a moral question, The homeowner decided that all his stuff wasn't worth $75 a year when he didn't pay the fire protection bill. So why should the fire department waste their time on something worth less than $75?



The fire department should have just put out the fire, then charged him extra fines and fees on top of billing him for their time and services. From the sounds of it, he would have gladly agreed to anything to save his house. They should have gone with that and we wouldn't be having this discussion now.

If this was a privatized fire department they likely would have. Alas, most the LGF readers and Think Progress have declared such things evil, so we are stuck with city run departments...

640 Lidane  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 9:13:38pm

re: #639 st. louisville cards

Everyone was out of the house and safe, so how is it an emergency?

It's a raging fire that is consuming a house and which could spread to other homes around it. How the hell is that not an emergency?

By your logic, the California wildfires aren't an emergency either, since most of them take place out in open wilderness where there aren't any homes or people around.

641 st. louisville cards  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 9:25:19pm

re: #638 Lidane

well if this was an emergency then, you might have a point, but everyone was safe and there was clearly a lot of land surrounding the building so additional fires weren't a problem. The fire WAS contained by the fire department, that was whey they were there.

Raging wild fires in drought stricken regions like California aren't the same as small fires in areas that allow leaf burnings.

And again everyone keeps trying to blame this on privatization, but this wasn't privatized. There are places that have privatized the fire department with success. The result of the privatized FD's is the same or better service at less cost to the tax payer....how awful.

642 Lidane  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 9:26:38pm

re: #639 st. louisville cards

Alas, most the LGF readers and Think Progress have declared such things evil

Ah, but no one has done that. Not even me.

Privatization in general? Not evil. Privatizing emergency services? Wrongheaded, and asinine, but not evil in and of itself, at least in theory. Calling something evil is making a moral judgment about it, and I haven't done that. I think the fire department pulled a dick move, and I don't blame the homeowner for punching someone when it was over, but none of this was evil. It was just a dick move over $75 that exposes the flaws in the anarcho-libertarian ideal of privatizing everything, including emergency services.

As I said upthread, I'm enough of a capitalist pig to be getting an MBA right now. I've got no problems with business or making money. If I did, I'd be wasting my time in graduate school. And yes, there ARE things that the private sector does better than the government. HOWEVER, this was a matter of public safety, not private enterprise. There's no excuse for a fire department letting a house burn to the ground over $75. Period.

643 st. louisville cards  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 9:34:55pm

Wrong headed, except for the fact that it has and is working in the US today. Facts are stubborn sometimes right?

and if the homeowner punched someone, he should have punched himself first being too much an ass to pay $75 a year to protect his family and property.

644 Lidane  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 9:49:47pm

An interview with the homeowner tonight:

MSNBC Video

Yeah. That guy sounds like he was too much of an ass to pay a $75 fee. Seems to me he was a good person who got screwed by an idiotic policy.

645 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 10:13:25pm

re: #47 Stanley Sea

The homeowner went to the fire dept., punched the fire chief, was arrested.

WILD WEST (South)!!

[Link: www.nwtntoday.com...]

No jury will convict. The DA would be well advised to pass on this case.

646 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 10:38:45pm

re: #234 HappyWarrior

Somehow, I am reminded of the scene in Gangs of New York where William Tweed's fire company is fighting with another fire company and the house is burning down and the homeowner is like this is my house, do something and Tweed tells him to vote Tammany. Seriously what a bunch of assholes. it's not only morally wrong what they did but unsafe too since that fire easily could have spread.

In Cincinnati, firefighting was taken over by the city as a municipal responsibility around 1850 after several incidents like the fictional one you mentioned. Disputes over which private fire brigade got to the fire first, and how much the property owner would have to pay, led to battles between rival fire brigades while buildings burned.

647 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 10:52:04pm

re: #371 calochortus

Around here its usually 4 am. I suspect it has to do with batteries not working quite as well when they're cooler. But I really don't know.

Batteries are sentient. Knowing they're about to die, they plot to cause maximum inconvenience to humans.

648 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:01:11pm

re: #445 WindUpBird

Efficiency never really takes humanity into account

Which is sort of why I'm never going to be a Republican, since even fiscal conservatives seem to place a higher premium on the abstract of efficiency with the actual realities of the care of human beings in a functioning society

Just an ideological gulf that they're never going to cross for me, and I sure as shit ain't crossing for them

Idealism never really takes humanity into account, either.

That's why I refuse to be a Democrat. "Why can't we all get along?", Kumbaya, rainbows and unicorns, "everyone will be friends if we just sit down and talk"--feh.

"The lamb may lie down with the lion, but the lamb won't get much sleep."--Woody Allen

This in no way invalidates your original statement. I wasn't saying you're wrong, only adding to it.

649 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:08:58pm

re: #507 darthstar

Just sent the following email to Jack Conway:

At least the Democrats are only hounding me electronically...somehow, the GOP got my home address and they think I support them, so I get 5lbs of paper for the recycler every week from them.

Heh. It took me two-plus years to get off the electronic and paper mailing lists after I made a donation to Ted Strickland's campaign for governor of Ohio. Now, after a year without that BS, and Strickland running for re-election, here they come again.

I'm planning to vote for Strickland again, but I'm not donating.

650 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Oct 4, 2010 11:12:38pm

re: #528 WindUpBird

Wow, I wonder why rubes across America still think gay teachers will corrupt their children

When I was in high school, the kids were in more danger from the straight and predatory drivers' education teacher than the gay English teacher. The gay guy took "no" for an answer and didn't retaliate, the drivers' ed teacher flunked girls who said it.

651 [deleted]  Tue, Oct 5, 2010 6:03:56am
652 Obdicut  Tue, Oct 5, 2010 6:53:08am

re: #651 St. Louisville Cards

You didn't last long before slipping the mask off.

653 [deleted]  Tue, Oct 5, 2010 6:54:47am
654 Pythagoras  Tue, Oct 5, 2010 10:57:24am

re: #635 st. louisville cards

um...did you read it? That is Obion County not South Fulton. South Fulton is a city fire department that tends to its tax paying citizens, it is not a private fire department. Again, if the South Fulton FD was set up to try to make money, they would have a chargeable price for emergencies.

This isn't an example of privatization it is an example of bad government. It appears that Obion County and South Fulton did not have policies and procedures in place to deal with situations like this. It is also an example of a homeowner trying to mooch off his neighbors paying for a service he wasn't paying for.

Did you miss the word "not" in my posting?

655 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Oct 5, 2010 12:57:51pm

re: #648 ClaudeMonet

Idealism never really takes humanity into account, either.

That's why I refuse to be a Democrat. "Why can't we all get along?", Kumbaya, rainbows and unicorns, "everyone will be friends if we just sit down and talk"--feh.

"The lamb may lie down with the lion, but the lamb won't get much sleep."--Woody Allen

This in no way invalidates your original statement. I wasn't saying you're wrong, only adding to it.

difference is of course, there are plenty of moderate Democrats in office, because they actually have that big tent

And moderate Republicans are being forced out and called traitors ;-)

656 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Oct 5, 2010 1:02:40pm

re: #608 Obdicut

Didnja notice how the fire spread?

re: #610 Amory Blaine

Fires can grow out of control. It sounds like this homeowner tried to put the fire out with garden hoses in desperation and may have contained the fire. Now imagine this "service" in an urban setting, with millions of people who know that the regard for civic duty has sunk so low that not even a deadly fire will bring aid. Maybe they won't try to put the fire out.

This country is full of stupid fucking assholes.

Quoted for truth

657 Mr. Hammer  Tue, Oct 5, 2010 1:03:56pm

re: #654 Pythagoras

Did you miss the word "not" in my posting?

too late. He had to go.

658 califleftyb  Tue, Oct 5, 2010 1:42:13pm

"...Establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare...*

*paid subscribers only

659 jj21  Tue, Oct 5, 2010 1:58:38pm

re: #470 Gus 802
Additionally,

What's dumb is that whether they paid the fee or not, not putting out the fire will probably cost a lot more overall to the community...

Of course, the damage to their own and their neighbors' house...

I don't think it is much of a stretch to assume that the homeowners will probably not be working for a while now, their productivity will go down. They might even lose their job(s). They will probably need help to make ends meet- they might even need to go on services for a time. They will probably be recipients of local charity. They'll probably need marriage help. It is tough to deal with losing all your worldly possessions. Divorce is already high in this country- losing your house isn't going to help matters.

I've read that people actually want to make the owners of the burned down house pay for their neighbor's repairs. Unreal. I pray none of these people are ever my neighbors.

660 GatorAtLaw  Tue, Oct 5, 2010 4:44:56pm

re: #634 Lidane

Insurance company =/= fire department.

What an asinine comparison.

Is it? With an insurance company, you pay a sum to the insurance company for coverage in case a specified event occurred. "We'll build you a new house if your house burns down and you pay us $75 a year."

Here, a municipal fire department offered what amounts to an insurance contract to county residents. "We'll protect your house, if you pay us $75 a year."

I see absolutely no difference. The homeowner knew the risk, and chose not to hedge against it.

661 GatorAtLaw  Tue, Oct 5, 2010 4:48:26pm

re: #638 Lidane

What's next? Should we all pay a $75 opt-in fee to the local police precinct so they'll feel inclined to intervene while our homes are getting robbed, or if someone close to us is getting attacked? Should we pay an additional $75 opt-in fee to the criminal courts so that the robber or attacker gets prosecuted, and another $75 opt-in fee to the civil courts so that we can have any civil issues that might come up looked at by a judge?

You already do that. They're called property taxes.

In this situation, the fire department was a municipally-operated fire department (read: city owned, operating within city limits, paid for by city taxpayers). They offered coverage to county residents (read: people who don't live in the city, and thus don't pay city taxes) for a VERY nominal fee.

662 GatorAtLaw  Tue, Oct 5, 2010 4:49:40pm

re: #659 jj21


What's dumb is that whether they paid the fee or not, not putting out the fire will probably cost a lot more overall to the community...

And how much is it going to cost the community if the city has to provide a service to the entire county without anyone in the county forking up some dough to pay for it?

663 Obdicut  Tue, Oct 5, 2010 6:16:59pm

re: #662 GatorAtLaw

Why are you just beating up strawmen?

Nobody has suggested the people in the county shouldn't pay for the service.

664 GatorAtLaw  Tue, Oct 5, 2010 7:16:52pm

re: #663 Obdicut

Why are you just beating up strawmen?

Nobody has suggested the people in the county shouldn't pay for the service.

Plenty are suggesting that the county should provide the service regardless.

665 Lidane  Wed, Oct 6, 2010 7:30:18am

re: #661 GatorAtLaw

You already do that. They're called property taxes.

Ah, but this $75 fee is in addition to the property taxes that are paid. That's the point.

Should we have to pay extra opt-in fees for basic emergency services on top of all the other taxes that we pay into the system? Anyone rationalizing what happened here seems to agree with that idea. I don't. I think it's wrong. This guy's taxes should have paid for emergency services. Period.

They let his house burn down over $75. That's inexcusable. Period.

666 Vambo  Wed, Oct 6, 2010 10:10:27am

re: #104 Obdicut

I'd like everyone to consider this:

The current for-profit prison industry has no incentive to actually help prisoners become non-criminals after their release. In fact, they have an incentive to make sure that any criminal commits crimes upon their release, since the prisons make money per inmate housed.

Ghosts of the Civil Dead!! Ghosts of the Civil Dead!! (my av!)

sorry, I'm just reading this old thread and had to contribute there.

667 GatorAtLaw  Wed, Oct 6, 2010 5:52:50pm

re: #665 Lidane

Ah, but this $75 fee is in addition to the property taxes that are paid. That's the point.

Should we have to pay extra opt-in fees for basic emergency services on top of all the other taxes that we pay into the system? Anyone rationalizing what happened here seems to agree with that idea. I don't. I think it's wrong. This guy's taxes should have paid for emergency services. Period.

They let his house burn down over $75. That's inexcusable. Period.

Incorrect. This fire department was paid with city taxes. The home that burned down was located outside the city. Hence, the $75 was to cover service by the city outside of its taxing district. The city needed to cover its costs if it was going to extend fire coverage to the county, and this ridiculously cheap premium was the way to do it.


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