Oregon GOP congressional candidate Arthur Robinson, subject of several posts at LGF, was on the Rachel Maddow show tonight. And you won’t believe how crazy this one gets.
Robinson claims to be a scientist, when he’s one of the most rabid, irrational anti-science GOP fools in an election full of them. A true jaw-dropper of an interview.
1 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:07:05pm |
More horseshit. AGW denial is not only stupid, its also bad politics in the longer term.
| 2 |
Nick Schroeder Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:07:13pm |
Maddow clearly demonstrated that Art Robinson thinks at the speed of potato.
| 3 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:07:44pm |
I like how he totally fails to answer any questions.
| 4 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:08:04pm |
re: #1 Dark_Falcon
More horseshit. AGW denial is not only stupid, its also bad politics in the longer term.
The horseshit is coming from Art Robinson, just to be clear.
| 5 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:11:13pm |
I missed this old thread:
GOP Candidate Arthur Robinson: Dump Oil and Nuclear Waste at Sea
He really believes that? What a fucking nimrod.
| 7 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:13:33pm |
Direct quotes from a candidate's own newsletter is mudslinging.
How dare they smear a man with his own words?
/
| 8 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:13:47pm |
re: #5 NJDhockeyfan
Welp, given that the subject is the same, can you explain what the hell you meant from last thread when you said that using oil doesn't cause AGW?
This comment is the one I'm referring to:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
| 9 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:14:00pm |
re: #5 NJDhockeyfan
I missed this old thread:
GOP Candidate Arthur Robinson: Dump Oil and Nuclear Waste at Sea
He really believes that? What a fucking nimrod.
Yeah, this guy is indefensible.
| 10 |
jaunte Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:14:12pm |
He's quite an over-talker.
"Robinson is the founder of a group called the “Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine” (OISM), which markets, among other things, a home-schooling kit for "parents concerned about socialism in the public schools" and books on how to survive nuclear war." [Link: www.desmogblog.com...]
| 11 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:14:55pm |
re: #2 Nick Schroeder
Maddow clearly demonstrated that Art Robinson thinks at the speed of potato.
Challenge. Potatoes are a complete food, Robinson is a complete imbecile.
| 12 |
Lidane Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:15:59pm |
re: #2 Nick Schroeder
Maddow clearly demonstrated that Art Robinson thinks at the speed of potato.
That's an insult to the potato. It's clearly smarter than Art Robinson.
| 13 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:16:20pm |
re: #10 jaunte
He's quite an over-talker.
HEAD FOR THE HILLS!!1 BUY GUNZ!1 BUY SURVIVAL SEEDS!!!11 BUY MY BOOKS!11
Seriously, the guy sounds like Glenn Beck.
| 14 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:16:27pm |
re: #8 Obdicut
Welp, given that the subject is the same, can you explain what the hell you meant from last thread when you said that using oil doesn't cause AGW?
This comment is the one I'm referring to:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
I'm not totally sold on AGW. This summer was very hot and last winter was very cold. I'm not seeing it yet. I think Al Gore is full of shit.
| 15 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:17:11pm |
re: #14 NJDhockeyfan
I'm not totally sold on AGW. This summer was very hot and last winter was very cold. I'm not seeing it yet. I think Al Gore is full of shit.
Protip: Weather does not equal climate.
| 16 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:17:48pm |
re: #14 NJDhockeyfan
I'm not totally sold on AGW. This summer was very hot and last winter was very cold. I'm not seeing it yet. I think Al Gore is full of shit.
Cycles within cycles. The overall trend is still towards higher temperatures.
| 17 |
jaunte Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:17:52pm |
re: #13 Dark_Falcon
You have to read the whole thousands and thousands of scientific words in his pamphlet to truly understand. /
| 18 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:18:52pm |
re: #14 NJDhockeyfan
Oh for fuck's sake.
I'd suggest you read a site called LGF to figure out why that statement is profoundly idiotic.
You are saying things that are every bit as ignorant as Robinson.
Every bit.
| 19 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:19:34pm |
re: #17 jaunte
You have to read the whole thousands and thousands of scientific words in his pamphlet to truly understand. /
Too hard. He has a degree from CalTech, for crying out loud. How could I ever hope to understand his carefully constructed scientific arguments -- oh wait. He's a lunatic. Never mind.
| 21 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:20:54pm |
The scariest thing on this interview;
"I've taught thousands of students."
Fucking scary.
| 22 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:21:29pm |
If potatoes are so smart, how are they now in my soup and this guy is walking the streets?
//I'm gonna need a bigger kettle
| 23 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:21:43pm |
Wait, did this ignorant fuck just say satellite communications were the speed of light?
FUCKING MORON!
| 24 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:22:06pm |
re: #21 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
I'd ask him, "Taught them what?"
| 25 |
jaunte Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:22:26pm |
This may be the new technique, rather than running from the press, you simply use the whole interview to slam the interviewer and drop negative soundbites about your opponent.
| 26 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:22:29pm |
re: #18 Obdicut
Oh for fuck's sake.
I'd suggest you read a site called LGF to figure out why that statement is profoundly idiotic.
You are saying things that are every bit as ignorant as Robinson.
Every bit.
Hogwash. I'm entitled to my opinion. That doesn't make me a fucking wacko like Robinson. That guy is an idiot.
| 27 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:24:09pm |
All righty, go for the jugular guys. I have soup and cornbread. Nighty.
| 28 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:24:17pm |
re: #14 NJDhockeyfan
I'm not totally sold on AGW. This summer was very hot and last winter was very cold. I'm not seeing it yet. I think Al Gore is full of shit.
this is a joke, right?
| 29 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:24:18pm |
re: #26 NJDhockeyfan
Hogwash.
I think we should eliminate the words Hogwash, Poppycock, and Balderdash.
| 30 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:24:27pm |
re: #26 NJDhockeyfan
Hogwash. I'm entitled to my opinion. That doesn't make me a fucking wacko like Robinson. That guy is an idiot.
This is a joke, right?
| 31 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:24:47pm |
re: #18 Obdicut
Oh for fuck's sake.
I'd suggest you read a site called LGF to figure out why that statement is profoundly idiotic.
You are saying things that are every bit as ignorant as Robinson.
Every bit.
he's making a joke, right?
| 33 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:25:43pm |
| 34 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:25:53pm |
re: #25 jaunte
This may be the new technique, rather than running from the press, you simply use the whole interview to slam the interviewer and drop negative soundbites about your opponent.
That sounds like blogtrolling adapted to TV. You scream and whine about how 'oppressed' you are because someone called you on your bullshit, then you end the proceedings by flouncing to the exit.
| 35 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:26:05pm |
re: #29 Mr Pancakes
I think we should eliminate the words Hogwash, Poppycock, and Balderdash.
How do you feel about Bah! Humbug!
| 36 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:26:22pm |
re: #26 NJDhockeyfan
Hogwash. I'm entitled to my opinion. That doesn't make me a fucking wacko like Robinson. That guy is an idiot.
You have an opinion. Your opinion in this case is ignorant. Just as Robinson's opinions are ignorant.
Seriously, after all of the work Charles has done posting link after fucking link after link after link about AGW, about the scientific evidence for it, about how Al Gore does not matter, about how the AGW-deniers are distorting science, lying their asses off-- how on earth can you still be 'unconvinced'?
| 37 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:26:40pm |
| 38 |
Interesting Times Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:26:43pm |
| 39 |
Reginald Perrin Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:27:38pm |
re: #31 WindUpBird
he's making a joke, right?
He is playing for attention hoping to derail this thread and make it all about himself.
| 42 |
Linden Arden Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:29:16pm |
| 43 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:29:53pm |
re: #39 Reginald Perrin
I don't think that's fair, since I'm the one who brought it up from last thread.
I have no idea what the hell is going on. I had no idea someone could read LGF and still be ignorant about the reality and causes of AGW, any more than I'd think someone could be ignorant about the legality of the Israelis boarding the ships running the blockade.
| 44 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:30:23pm |
re: #23 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Wait, did this ignorant fuck just say satellite communications were the speed of light?
FUCKING MORON!
I'm not trying to support that fool but don't radio waves travel the same speed as light? Maybe I'm wrong.
| 45 |
CarleeCork Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:30:29pm |
And what in the hell is he wearing? That looks like something my redneck ex would wear. Has he been trapping coons?
| 46 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:30:48pm |
I would have to say that denying climate change, and denying a human component to said change, is closely akin to denying the theory of evolution. Observe:
"If evolution is true, how come monkeys aren't evolving before our very eyes?"
"If global warming is true, how come there was snow last winter?"
You can have these arguments ad nauseam, but they are essentially meaningless in the face of established scientific fact.
| 47 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:31:19pm |
re: #44 NJDhockeyfan
I'm not trying to support that fool but don't radio waves travel the same speed as light? Maybe I'm wrong.
Nope, major latency on dish....... so I am told.
| 48 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:31:34pm |
re: #42 Linden Arden
Isn't that the shortest Bible verse?
No. HOLY CRAP! That's the shortest. Lot's wife upon turning to look back.
| 49 |
Interesting Times Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:31:35pm |
| 51 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:32:05pm |
re: #36 Obdicut
You have an opinion. Your opinion in this case is ignorant. Just as Robinson's opinions are ignorant.
Seriously, after all of the work Charles has done posting link after fucking link after link after link about AGW, about the scientific evidence for it, about how Al Gore does not matter, about how the AGW-deniers are distorting science, lying their asses off-- how on earth can you still be 'unconvinced'?
I'm not convinced yet. So what? It's not the end of the world dude. I don't agree with everything on here and neither do you. Take it easy.
| 52 |
jaunte Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:32:20pm |
re: #44 NJDhockeyfan
They also have to travel through a lot of wiring and switching, which slows things down.
| 53 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:32:51pm |
re: #44 NJDhockeyfan
I'm not trying to support that fool but don't radio waves travel the same speed as light? Maybe I'm wrong.
They do, but that does not mean instantaneous communications. There is a lag depending on distance, atmospheric conditions and other disturbances.
| 54 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:33:06pm |
| 55 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:33:27pm |
| 56 |
Linden Arden Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:33:40pm |
re: #44 NJDhockeyfan
I'm not trying to support that fool but don't radio waves travel the same speed as light? Maybe I'm wrong.
light 186,00 miles a second.
CB radio - truck to truck intrastate.
| 57 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:34:40pm |
re: #52 jaunte
They also have to travel through a lot of wiring and switching, which slows things down.
I was thinking about the transmission from the satellite to my dish without including the wires and anything else.
| 58 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:34:41pm |
re: #51 NJDhockeyfan
I'm not convinced yet. So what? It's not the end of the world dude. I don't agree with everything on here and neither do you. Take it easy.
Then don't object when I call your ignorance ignorance, and say you're saying things just as foolish as Robinson. Because you are.
Can you explain what is unconvincing, to you, of the zillions of links Charles has posted, showing the consensus in the scientific community?
What aren't you convinced of? That warming is occurring at all? It kind of sounds like it.
| 59 |
Interesting Times Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:35:35pm |
re: #54 Mr Pancakes
Hmmm mine's a pancake... his is something that looks like a stick figure burning or something.
I know. It's the color scheme more than anything else.
| 60 |
jaunte Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:35:37pm |
re: #57 NJDhockeyfan
The transmission through vacuum is speed of light, but through atmosphere and hardware it's slower.
| 61 |
b_sharp Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:36:19pm |
Yah, leave me all by myself downstairs. Some friends you guys are.
(pout)
| 62 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:36:20pm |
re: #39 Reginald Perrin
He is playing for attention hoping to derail this thread and make it all about himself.
You've got mail.
| 63 |
Dancing along the light of day Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:37:20pm |
re: #39 Reginald Perrin
He is playing for attention hoping to derail this thread and make it all about himself.
It's not??
//
Oh, OK...
| 64 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:37:26pm |
re: #60 jaunte
In fact, 'speed of light' differs between vacuum and air (and anything else). So unless everything in the equation is vacuum, nothing ever happens at the ideal speed of light.
| 65 |
Interesting Times Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:37:33pm |
re: #60 jaunte
The transmission through vacuum is speed of light, but through atmosphere and hardware it's slower.
At home, I have no "high speed" Internet option other than satellite. There are days when it doesn't even reach the speed of heavily sedated snails.
| 66 |
Linden Arden Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:37:35pm |
| 67 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:37:59pm |
re: #58 Obdicut
Then don't object when I call your ignorance ignorance, and say you're saying things just as foolish as Robinson. Because you are.
Can you explain what is unconvincing, to you, of the zillions of links Charles has posted, showing the consensus in the scientific community?
What aren't you convinced of? That warming is occurring at all? It kind of sounds like it.
Oh Jesus Christ, do I have to believe everything you do just to prevent you from calling me ignorant? OK, AGW is true and the oceans will rise until my house in the mountains is waterfront property.
Is that better?
| 68 |
jaunte Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:38:42pm |
Traveling through Art Robinson's neighborhood (southwestern Oregon) this summer, I passed a couple of these: Image: Creator_Roseburg1SM_1.jpg
| 69 |
Dancing along the light of day Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:38:55pm |
| 70 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:39:01pm |
re: #58 Obdicut
Then don't object when I call your ignorance ignorance, and say you're saying things just as foolish as Robinson. Because you are.
Can you explain what is unconvincing, to you, of the zillions of links Charles has posted, showing the consensus in the scientific community?
What aren't you convinced of? That warming is occurring at all? It kind of sounds like it.
Dude...... He'll never win this argument here on LGF....... why the hounding?
| 71 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:39:04pm |
re: #64 Obdicut
In fact, 'speed of light' differs between vacuum and air (and anything else). So unless everything in the equation is vacuum, nothing ever happens at the ideal speed of light.
They've actually had a study that proves light moves slower in extremely cold environments
| 72 |
b_sharp Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:39:19pm |
re: #12 Lidane
That's an insult to the potato. It's clearly smarter than Art Robinson.
But a potato(e) does think kinda slow, even if rather bright for a veggie.
| 73 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:39:42pm |
| 75 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:40:21pm |
re: #68 jaunte
Traveling through Art Robinson's neighborhood (southwestern Oregon) this summer, I passed a couple of these: Image: Creator_Roseburg1SM_1.jpg
The ape looks a lot smarter than the dude with the goatee. Maybe that's what we got wrong about evolution -- it's bi-directional and some folks are moving one way, some the other way...
| 76 |
bratwurst Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:40:22pm |
re: #14 NJDhockeyfan
I'm not totally sold on AGW. This summer was very hot and last winter was very cold. I'm not seeing it yet. .
Your lack of understanding of this issue is breathtaking.
| 77 |
Interesting Times Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:40:25pm |
| 78 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:40:36pm |
re: #67 NJDhockeyfan
Oh Jesus Christ, do I have to believe everything you do just to prevent you from calling me ignorant?
No. But denial of AGW is ignorant, especially on LGF, after all the work Charles has done posting links precisely to educate the community on the subject of AGW. I'm really not interesting in you trying to make this some personal thing; it's not. It's about you rejecting science, in the same way Robinson is, for no apparent reason-- and no apparent sense of irony.
Again: What are you unconvinced of?
| 79 |
b_sharp Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:41:04pm |
re: #14 NJDhockeyfan
I'm not totally sold on AGW. This summer was very hot and last winter was very cold. I'm not seeing it yet. I think Al Gore is full of shit.
I see you have trouble distinguishing between weather and climate. Might be time to hit the books.
Al Gore was right. He made some mistakes, but those do not detract from the rest which was accurate.
| 80 |
Linden Arden Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:41:17pm |
re: #73 Dark_Falcon
I'm too tired to argue.
Get thee to an apothecary - or a good witch.
Better luck Friday.
| 81 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:41:18pm |
re: #70 Mr Pancakes
Dude... He'll never win this argument here on LGF... why the hounding?
What's the subject of the thread?
| 82 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:41:19pm |
re: #65 publicityStunted
At home, I have no "high speed" Internet option other than satellite. There are days when it doesn't even reach the speed of heavily sedated snails.
I have BPL wich is slower than your internet speed most of the time. I lose internet connection constantly. When I moved out here dial up was the only thing going anywhere. Technology hasn't caught up with my neighborhood yet.
| 83 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:41:37pm |
| 84 |
Interesting Times Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:41:42pm |
| 85 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:41:53pm |
| 86 |
CarleeCork Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:42:16pm |
AGW is a theory like evolution is a theory like gravity is a theory.
| 87 |
Dancing along the light of day Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:42:38pm |
Just because, it's my day, today!
| 88 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:42:54pm |
| 90 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:43:33pm |
| 91 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:43:50pm |
re: #76 bratwurst
Your lack of understanding of this issue is breathtaking.
I'm glad to be the one to take your breath away. Did I win a prize?
| 92 |
Amory Blaine Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:44:03pm |
Ugg That was painful to watch. Several times I felt like punching myself in the face.
| 93 |
b_sharp Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:44:18pm |
re: #26 NJDhockeyfan
Hogwash. I'm entitled to my opinion. That doesn't make me a fucking wacko like Robinson. That guy is an idiot.
Your opinion goes full force against what the science says. I have no trouble telling you your opinion in this matter is baseless and useless.
| 94 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:45:06pm |
re: #78 Obdicut
No. But denial of AGW is ignorant, especially on LGF, after all the work Charles has done posting links precisely to educate the community on the subject of AGW. I'm really not interesting in you trying to make this some personal thing; it's not. It's about you rejecting science, in the same way Robinson is, for no apparent reason-- and no apparent sense of irony.
Again: What are you unconvinced of?
I just don't buy it yet. Isn't that enough?
| 95 |
bratwurst Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:45:50pm |
re: #91 NJDhockeyfan
I'm glad to be the one to take your breath away. Did I win a prize?
Willful ignorance: you have it.
| 96 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:45:56pm |
| 97 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:46:25pm |
re: #88 EmmmieG
Fine, then we can just squabble.
Can we interest you in a little squibble then? Or perhaps a few unkind words before drifting off to sleep?
| 98 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:46:54pm |
| 99 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:47:07pm |
re: #97 imp_62
Can we interest you in a little squibble then? Or perhaps a few unkind words before drifting off to sleep?
Perhaps a quiet disagreement?
| 100 |
b_sharp Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:47:17pm |
re: #47 Mr Pancakes
Nope, major latency on dish... so I am told.
The latency is within the equipment. The waves travel at the speed of light through atmosphere.
| 101 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:47:30pm |
re: #94 NJDhockeyfan
I just don't buy it yet. Isn't that enough?
No, of course it's not. "Enough" for what? "I don't buy it" is a ridiculous, ignorant statement with no force to it.
What is it that you don't buy? Can you name something about AGW that you don't believe?
Do you not believe that CO2 causes atmosphere to trap more heat?
Do you not believe that mankind has produced huge amounts of CO2 that are still in atmosphere?
Do you not believe that the temperature record shows warming?
Because those three very simple things, added together, prove AGW.
So which one do you 'just don't buy'?
| 102 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:47:42pm |
re: #93 b_sharp
Your opinion goes full force against what the science says. I have no trouble telling you your opinion in this matter is baseless and useless.
That's your opinion. We can still be friends can't we?
| 103 |
bratwurst Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:48:24pm |
re: #94 NJDhockeyfan
I just don't buy it yet. Isn't that enough?
Not buying it is one thing. Basing your opinion on the past two seasons of weather is plain old ignorant.
| 104 |
CarleeCork Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:49:42pm |
| 105 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:50:30pm |
| 106 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:50:36pm |
re: #103 bratwurst
Not buying it is one thing. Basing your opinion on the past two seasons of weather is plain old ignorant.
How long have the scientists been collecting data for their global warming research?
| 107 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:50:45pm |
| 108 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:50:46pm |
| 109 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:51:35pm |
| 110 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:52:04pm |
| 111 |
CarleeCork Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:52:17pm |
re: #108 Mr Pancakes
If you only knew how much I love pancakes with butter and hot syrup....and lots of bacon and an ice cold glass of milk.
:sigh:
| 112 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:52:21pm |
re: #106 NJDhockeyfan
How long have the scientists been collecting data for their global warming research?
As Charles has noted, since 1896, when the heat-trapping properties of CO2 were noticed.
Seriously, dude, why not just go and read the threads Charles has made on the subject instead of asking people to answer the basic questions for you here in this thread?
| 113 |
bratwurst Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:52:31pm |
re: #106 NJDhockeyfan
How long have the scientists been collecting data for their global warming research?
More than the past two seasons, Professor.
| 114 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:52:43pm |
| 115 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:53:25pm |
I constructed a solar oven the other day with my daughter for a school project....... cooked a couple of hot dogs in it...... when she wasn't looking I threw it away.
| 116 |
b_sharp Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:53:31pm |
re: #94 NJDhockeyfan
I just don't buy it yet. Isn't that enough?
Why don't you buy it?
Assuming your decision not to accept the science is based on rational thought, and not based on emotion or fear of the potential consequences of mitigating the effects, where do you believe the science falls short?
| 117 |
austin_blue Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:53:43pm |
OMG! That's the R's candidate?
What if he wins? Can we adopt Molly Ivin's dictum that every two years, villages all over the State of Texas send their idiots to Austin for the Bi-Annual meeting of the Legislature?
| 118 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:53:46pm |
re: #106 NJDhockeyfan
How long have the scientists been collecting data for their global warming research?
Direct observation, since the 1850s, all other data from approximately 1000 AD to 1850 is based on reconstructed data
| 119 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:54:00pm |
re: #114 imp_62
A sigh.
Excellent. It has to be one so inaudible that you will stay up all night fuming about that sigh, because a snort you could at least return a glare for.
| 120 |
b_sharp Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:54:48pm |
re: #102 NJDhockeyfan
That's your opinion. We can still be friends can't we?
Only if you bring the beer.
| 121 |
Linden Arden Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:54:53pm |
re: #118 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Direct observation, since the 1850s, all other data from approximately 1000 AD to 1850 is based on reconstructed data
and on one floppy diskette!
| 122 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:55:20pm |
re: #118 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
True, the data collection actually predates the theory. I'd forgotten about that.
| 123 |
Interesting Times Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:56:12pm |
re: #94 NJDhockeyfan
I just don't buy it yet. Isn't that enough?
Let me put it this way: you recently quit smoking, correct? Why do that when not everyone who smokes winds up getting cancer? Or, if I point to a smoker like George Burns who lived to be nearly 100, does that negate all the years of research showing cigarettes are a carcinogen?
| 124 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:56:27pm |
re: #113 bratwurst
More than the past two seasons, Professor.
Hold on, that's a legitimate question. Climate data comes in different packages. Observational data on temperatures, rainfall, distribution of precipitation, etc. This has been going on for upwards of a hundred years or so. Then there is core drilling in arctic ice, which takes us back thousands of years. Studies of the fossil record for gas concentrations, etc. All part of climate research.
Again, do not equate climate and weather.
| 125 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:56:49pm |
re: #112 Obdicut
As Charles has noted, since 1896, when the heat-trapping properties of CO2 were noticed.
Seriously, dude, why not just go and read the threads Charles has made on the subject instead of asking people to answer the basic questions for you here in this thread?
The climate has been changing for millions of years and they just decided a few years ago that global warming is the fault of humans? That's why I don't believe it yet.
| 126 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:57:15pm |
re: #119 EmmmieG
Excellent. It has to be one so inaudible that you will stay up all night fuming about that sigh, because a snort you could at least return a glare for.
You seem well trained in the martial marital arts.
| 127 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:57:53pm |
re: #126 imp_62
You seem well trained in the
martialmarital arts.
My parents never shouted or yelled. They muttered.
| 129 |
austin_blue Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:58:56pm |
re: #125 NJDhockeyfan
The climate has been changing for millions of years and they just decided a few years ago that global warming is the fault of humans? That's why I don't believe it yet.
Well, that makes you an ignorant idiot.
I hope your mama is proud of you, because the rest of us think you are a mouth breather who rode the short bus to school.
| 130 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:59:12pm |
re: #125 NJDhockeyfan
Did you just skip the comment where I said that the first theory of global warming came in 1896?
I listed the three components of AGW. You haven't stated which of them you dispute. You are dodging the question.
Could you answer which of the three basic foundations of AGW you are disputing, and on what grounds?
| 131 |
freetoken Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:59:16pm |
Maddow let Robinson off without even confronting him on some of his other nutty positions, including his blatant over the top theocratic propositions.
Robinson's most damaging position isn't his anti-AGW looniness. His connection and support of the wacko "physicians" group headed by Jane Orient are spreading dangerous mistruths about important health issues.
| 132 |
Dancing along the light of day Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:59:17pm |
re: #39 Reginald Perrin
It's about, what ever you want it to be about.
Your issue, your reply.
Your world.
| 133 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:59:23pm |
re: #127 EmmmieG
My parents never shouted or yelled. They muttered.
Mine were truly evil. They used sarcasm.
| 134 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:59:29pm |
| 135 |
jaunte Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:59:30pm |
re: #128 jaunte
Mine used the deadly, silent lifted eyebrow.
Then when we ignored them, they yelled.
| 136 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:00:06pm |
re: #125 NJDhockeyfan
The climate has been changing for millions of years and they just decided a few years ago that global warming is the fault of humans? That's why I don't believe it yet.
You could say that about any scientific discovery to the beginning of time. At some point, it is discovered and quantified. Case in point: People have been dying of "humours" for time immemorial. Now they want us to believe in tiny invisible "bacteria" and "viruses". I don't buy it.
| 137 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:00:21pm |
re: #125 NJDhockeyfan
The climate has been changing for millions of years and they just decided a few years ago that global warming is the fault of humans? That's why I don't believe it yet.
Look at your post, now at mine. Now back to your post, now back to mine. Sadly, your post isn't mine, but if you stopped trolling and started reading it could look like mine. Look down, look up, where are you? You're scrolling through threads, writing the post your post could look like. What did you post? Back to mine, it's a reply saying something you want to hear. Look again, the post is now diamonds.
| 138 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:00:49pm |
re: #127 EmmmieG
My parents never shouted or yelled. They muttered.
Mine yelled. With gusto and apparent cathartic enjoyment.
| 139 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:00:59pm |
re: #137 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Look at your post, now at mine. Now back to your post, now back to mine. Sadly, your post isn't mine, but if you stopped trolling and started reading it could look like mine. Look down, look up, where are you? You're scrolling through threads, writing the post your post could look like. What did you post? Back to mine, it's a reply saying something you want to hear. Look again, the post is now diamonds.
Oh, genius. An upding wasn't enough this time.
| 140 |
Interesting Times Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:01:03pm |
re: #125 NJDhockeyfan
The climate has been changing for millions of years and they just decided a few years ago that global warming is the fault of humans? That's why I don't believe it yet.
The past decade was one that saw reduced solar activity (i.e. a solar minimum). Reduced solar activity means cooler average temperatures. But we didn't have cooler average temperatures during that decade, we had the exact opposite - record-breaking warming.
If all the natural factors lead to a cooling phase, but we had record-breaking warming instead, isn't that a rather huge indicator that something unnatural (i.e. man-made) was to blame?
| 141 |
jaunte Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:01:23pm |
re: #131 freetoken
In her defense, he was putting up an ungodly amount of flack. I was surprised she did as well with her end of the interview as she did.
| 142 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:01:30pm |
re: #133 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Mine were truly evil. They used sarcasm.
Based on how LGF usually rolls, we were all well-schooled in the arts of sarcasm.
| 143 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:01:34pm |
re: #129 austin_blue
Well, that makes you an ignorant idiot.
I hope your mama is proud of you, because the rest of us think you are a mouth breather who rode the short bus to school.
You are an asshole. Everyone is being an adult here. You should learn how to act like a grownup.
| 144 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:01:54pm |
re: #137 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Look at your post, now at mine. Now back to your post, now back to mine. Sadly, your post isn't mine, but if you stopped trolling and started reading it could look like mine. Look down, look up, where are you? You're scrolling through threads, writing the post your post could look like. What did you post? Back to mine, it's a reply saying something you want to hear. Look again, the post is now diamonds.
I don't understand what the fuck you are talking about, but I like getting dizzy and I like diamonds.
| 145 |
b_sharp Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:01:57pm |
re: #125 NJDhockeyfan
The climate has been changing for millions of years and they just decided a few years ago that global warming is the fault of humans? That's why I don't believe it yet.
They are saying the warming now is caused by humans. Each variation in the climate has causes, it simply doesn't happen without a cause. When we compare the warming now with previous warming periods, the causes of most of those previous periods are not active now. What is active is warming through GHGs. Burning fossil fuels puts a lot of GHGs, specifically CO2 and methane into the air. That CO2 has a marker that is not in other sources of CO2.
| 146 |
Linden Arden Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:02:03pm |
re: #134 NJDhockeyfan
Many beers.
NJD hockey fan - are you a face painter?
Do you remember the Seinfeld episodes where Putty painted it?
No disrespect - but I like hockey too.
| 147 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:02:05pm |
re: #125 NJDhockeyfan
The climate has been changing for millions of years and they just decided a few years ago that global warming is the fault of humans? That's why I don't believe it yet.
NYD.... cut your losses..... change the subject. I'll talk hockey with you if you tell me what it is.
| 148 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:02:30pm |
re: #130 Obdicut
Did you just skip the comment where I said that the first theory of global warming came in 1896?
I listed the three components of AGW. You haven't stated which of them you dispute. You are dodging the question.
Could you answer which of the three basic foundations of AGW you are disputing, and on what grounds?
I don't have a full report for you. Can't I just not believe it and let it ride?
| 149 |
freetoken Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:02:57pm |
re: #141 jaunte
Oh yeah, it was enough to just let him be himself, to show the world that he is just a whacked out old fool that belongs on Art Bell's old show and not in Congress.
Yet there is so much there to mine, not the least of which are his connections to most of the other looney GOP candidates.
| 150 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:03:19pm |
re: #144 imp_62
I don't understand what the fuck you are talking about, but I like getting dizzy and I like diamonds.
And, the brilliant parody that my alma mater put out:
| 151 |
bratwurst Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:03:28pm |
re: #125 NJDhockeyfan
The climate has been changing for millions of years and they just decided a few years ago that global warming is the fault of humans? That's why I don't believe it yet.
Aren't you about due to mention the fact you don't listen to Rush Limbaugh here (even though you just happen to have the same talking point)?
| 152 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:04:56pm |
re: #148 NJDhockeyfan
I'm not asking for a 'full report'. I stated the three, very basic, very simple foundations of AGW. I'm asking which of them you dispute. Hell, don't even bother telling me why you dispute them-- just which of them you dispute.
That you're simply dodging the question is painfully obvious, and I doubt you'll man up and actually answer, but I figured I'd ask one more time before I go to bed.
You can, of course, 'let it ride'. You can remain ignorant.
Just don't be offended when people call your ignorance ignorance, and say that you're just as big of a fool as Robinson.
| 153 |
CarleeCork Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:05:00pm |
Can't we all just get along and go to IHOP?
| 154 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:06:04pm |
re: #153 CarleeCork
Can't we all just get along and go to IHOP?
What are you, a dirty liberal with your "INTERNATIONAL" house of pancakes? Waffle house not good enough for you?
/
| 155 |
b_sharp Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:06:25pm |
re: #151 bratwurst
Aren't you about due to mention the fact you don't listen to Rush Limbaugh here (even though you just happen to have the same talking point)?
Well, in NJD's defence, that talking point is pretty common. I've heard it on AGW blogs dozens of times.
| 156 |
Interesting Times Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:06:37pm |
re: #148 NJDhockeyfan
Can't I just not believe it and let it ride?
What would you say to someone who used the exact same line regarding the effectiveness of vaccines?
| 157 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:06:49pm |
re: #154 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
What are you, a dirty liberal with your "INTERNATIONAL" house of pancakes? Waffle house not good enough for you?
/
Look, I don't want to spread innuendo, but I'll bet at least one Lizard would order...
Quiche.
| 158 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:07:18pm |
re: #137 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Look at your post, now at mine. Now back to your post, now back to mine. Sadly, your post isn't mine, but if you stopped trolling and started reading it could look like mine. Look down, look up, where are you? You're scrolling through threads, writing the post your post could look like. What did you post? Back to mine, it's a reply saying something you want to hear. Look again, the post is now diamonds.
I'm not trolling. I said I don't believe in AGW right now and am getting attacked from every angle for it. Do I have to believe in it to continue to be a standing member of LGF? No, everyone has their own opinions about everything. No you know one of mine. If you don't like it tough shit but attacking me isn't doing anyone any good.
| 159 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:07:41pm |
re: #153 CarleeCork
Can't we all just get along and go to IHOP?
Thanks..... that positive comment gets me a free coupon for pancakes.
| 160 |
CarleeCork Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:07:52pm |
re: #157 EmmmieG
Look, I don't want to spread innuendo, but I'll bet at least one Lizard would order...
Quiche.
What's wrong with quiche? I like quiche.
| 161 |
b_sharp Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:07:58pm |
re: #157 EmmmieG
Look, I don't want to spread innuendo, but I'll bet at least one Lizard would order...
Quiche.
I like quichees, especially in the afternoon.
| 162 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:07:59pm |
re: #157 EmmmieG
Look, I don't want to spread innuendo, but I'll bet at least one Lizard would order...
Quiche.
Can I have *gasp* a frittata?
| 163 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:08:30pm |
re: #158 NJDhockeyfan
Really just one angle:
Not believing in AGW, especially after all the information about AGW Charles has put on LGF, is ignorant as hell-- ignorant in the same way that Robinson is ignorant.
| 164 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:08:34pm |
re: #158 NJDhockeyfan
I'm not trolling. I said I don't believe in AGW right now and am getting attacked from every angle for it. Do I have to believe in it to continue to be a standing member of LGF? No, everyone has their own opinions about everything. No you know one of mine. If you don't like it tough shit but attacking me isn't doing anyone any good.
Dude..... you are on your own...... roll around in the mud if you like.
| 165 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:08:38pm |
re: #140 publicityStunted
The past decade was one that saw reduced solar activity (i.e. a solar minimum). Reduced solar activity means cooler average temperatures. But we didn't have cooler average temperatures during that decade, we had the exact opposite - record-breaking warming.
If all the natural factors lead to a cooling phase, but we had record-breaking warming instead, isn't that a rather huge indicator that something unnatural (i.e. man-made) was to blame?
There was record breaking cooling in a lot of places too. Big fucking deal. Mother nature does that all the time.
| 166 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:08:44pm |
| 167 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:08:48pm |
re: #162 imp_62
Can I have *gasp* a frittata?
No! You will have pancakes and waffles and you will like them!
| 168 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:09:28pm |
*grumble, grumble*
Bunch of quiche-loving French socialist pansies...
| 169 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:09:47pm |
re: #146 Linden Arden
NJD hockey fan - are you a face painter?
Do you remember the Seinfeld episodes where Putty painted it?
No disrespect - but I like hockey too.
No but I wanted to do that when I saw that episode. Heh.
| 170 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:10:23pm |
re: #168 EmmmieG
*grumble, grumble*
Bunch of quiche-loving French socialist pansies...
Well.... can I have a short stack, no butter but have 2 waffles with fresh berries?
| 171 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:10:37pm |
re: #168 EmmmieG
*grumble, grumble*
Bunch of quiche-loving French socialist pansies...
I love sushi and quiche...... but then again I'm in California.
| 172 |
Digital Display Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:10:55pm |
re: #140 publicityStunted
The past decade was one that saw reduced solar activity (i.e. a solar minimum). Reduced solar activity means cooler average temperatures. But we didn't have cooler average temperatures during that decade, we had the exact opposite - record-breaking warming.
If all the natural factors lead to a cooling phase, but we had record-breaking warming instead, isn't that a rather huge indicator that something unnatural (i.e. man-made) was to blame?
exactly the point the well respected Universetoday web site made several years ago..
| 173 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:11:09pm |
re: #170 imp_62
Well... can I have a short stack, no butter but have 2 waffles with fresh berries?
All-American patriotic strawberries? Sure.
| 174 |
Claire Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:11:12pm |
I can't watch this whole thing- life's too short. My $'s on the Discovery Institute dumping the $150,000 into his campaign.
| 175 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:11:29pm |
re: #147 Mr Pancakes
NYD... cut your losses... change the subject. I'll talk hockey with you if you tell me what it is.
I don't feel like I lost anything. I haven't even posted any anti-AGW links. All I did is give my opinion and all hell broke lose.
| 176 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:11:30pm |
re: #171 Mr Pancakes
I love sushi and quiche... but then again I'm in California.
You are wearing a butter hat. You are very hard to take seriously - without at least a little maple syrup.
| 177 |
b_sharp Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:11:41pm |
re: #165 NJDhockeyfan
There was record breaking cooling in a lot of places too. Big fucking deal. Mother nature does that all the time.
The trend of the average of those warming and cooling fluctuations is upward. Two steps up, one step down.
| 179 |
CarleeCork Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:11:50pm |
re: #171 Mr Pancakes
I love sushi and quiche... but then again I'm in California.
That means you should really be Mr. Crepes.....you.....imposter.
| 180 |
austin_blue Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:12:05pm |
re: #158 NJDhockeyfan
I'm not trolling. I said I don't believe in AGW right now and am getting attacked from every angle for it. Do I have to believe in it to continue to be a standing member of LGF? No, everyone has their own opinions about everything. No you know one of mine. If you don't like it tough shit but attacking me isn't doing anyone any good.
Everyone has told you you are an idiot. And *I'm* an asshole?
Really, get a clue, dude. You are on the wrong side of the argument. It's a done deal here. if you want to spout bullshit, go to the stalker site. They'll absolutely love you there.
| 182 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:12:30pm |
re: #173 EmmmieG
All-American patriotic strawberries? Sure.
Erm. Actually locavore organic ones, if that's okay with you
*panicking* Don't raise the eyebrow - PLEASE
| 183 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:12:32pm |
re: #151 bratwurst
Aren't you about due to mention the fact you don't listen to Rush Limbaugh here (even though you just happen to have the same talking point)?
No I don't listen to Rush. He must have read my previous LGF posts where I said the same thing.
| 185 |
farmercharlie Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:13:07pm |
I listened to the interview over XM Radio in the car, and could hardly believe it. He seems to have discovered a way to talk continuously without having to stop to take a breath (or listen to what is said). :) Not until I got home did I find out that he is the same crackpot who generated the fraudulent Oregon Petition a few years back, when he apparently tried to make it look like he was representing the National Academy of Sciences' position on climate change. In truth I am not aware of a single peer-reviewed publication he has ever written on anything related to climate science. I sure hope Oregon has the good sense to reject this nut case, but I suppose the sane people in Michele Bachmann's district might welcome moving the spotlight to someone else's cook.
| 186 |
avanti Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:13:08pm |
re: #165 NJDhockeyfan
There was record breaking cooling in a lot of places too. Big fucking deal. Mother nature does that all the time.
A "lot of places" is know as "weather", global warming is, well, global.
| 187 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:13:36pm |
re: #182 imp_62
Erm. Actually locavore organic ones, if that's okay with you
*panicking* Don't raise the eyebrow - PLEASE
Well, mine were picked by me and my unwilling slave labor (it's easy to find slave labor; just give birth to it) locally, but you can have your organics, if you must.
| 188 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:14:02pm |
re: #175 NJDhockeyfan
I don't feel like I lost anything. I haven't even posted any anti-AGW links. All I did is give my opinion and all hell broke lose.
I'm not saying you lost anything...... you've been around here long enough to know the wolves must eat.
Stand by your opinion and move on.
| 189 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:14:25pm |
re: #179 CarleeCork
That means you should really be Mr. Crepes...you...imposter.
Mr Crepes was taken
| 190 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:14:40pm |
| 192 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:15:14pm |
re: #163 Obdicut
Really just one angle:
Not believing in AGW, especially after all the information about AGW Charles has put on LGF, is ignorant as hell-- ignorant in the same way that Robinson is ignorant.
Bullshit. Robinson is a lunatic.
| 193 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:15:59pm |
re: #176 imp_62
You are wearing a butter hat. You are very hard to take seriously - without at least a little maple syrup.
It wasn't poured on yet...... and it was real maple syrup!
| 194 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:17:16pm |
re: #187 EmmmieG
Well, mine were picked by me and my unwilling slave labor (it's easy to find slave labor; just give birth to it) locally, but you can have your organics, if you must.
My wife gave birth to slave labour. It immediately emancipated itself, took control of the means of production, introduced rudimentary democracy and reduced communication to the bare necessities. The worst part is, the emancipated slaves still clean out my wallet every morning.
| 195 |
freetoken Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:17:38pm |
re: #185 farmercharlie
We've written quite a bit about the guy:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
The Oregon Petition stuff is just the tip of the iceberg.
| 196 |
CarleeCork Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:18:20pm |
| 197 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:18:24pm |
| 198 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:18:38pm |
re: #193 Mr Pancakes
It wasn't poured on yet... and it was real maple syrup!
There was a time - in the far distant pass - when IHOP had real maple syrup in addition to various flavoured ones.
| 199 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:19:18pm |
re: #198 imp_62
There was a time - in the far distant pass - when IHOP had real maple syrup in addition to various flavoured ones.
sigh
| 200 |
austin_blue Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:19:19pm |
Night, all. She Who Must Be Obeyed is back from the gig in Kerrville.
The Austin City Limits festival starts tomorrow and my neighborhood will be inundated. Oh, joy!
| 201 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:19:30pm |
re: #180 austin_blue
Everyone has told you you are an idiot. And *I'm* an asshole?
Really, get a clue, dude. You are on the wrong side of the argument. It's a done deal here. if you want to spout bullshit, go to the stalker site. They'll absolutely love you there.
If you haven't noticed I wasn't looking for an argument. Obdicut asked my what I thought about AGW and I said what I believe. That's it. Everyone want's this to become a blowout and I won't do it.
/BTW...I got your stalker blog right here.
| 202 |
goddamnedfrank Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:19:38pm |
| 203 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:20:13pm |
| 204 |
CarleeCork Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:20:36pm |
re: #200 austin_blue
Night, all. She Who Must Be Obeyed is back from the gig in Kerrville.
The Austin City Limits festival starts tomorrow and my neighborhood will be inundated. Oh, joy!
Good night, you are SO lucky to live in a blue city.
| 205 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:21:45pm |
| 206 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:21:51pm |
re: #202 goddamnedfrank
That's two things you have in common.
Now, now. Lack of information and education on an issue does not a lunatic make. Hell, Robinson has an outstanding education, which he now uses to dig scientific latrines.
| 207 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:22:46pm |
re: #188 Mr Pancakes
I'm not saying you lost anything... you've been around here long enough to know the wolves must eat.
Stand by your opinion and move on.
Thank you. I am trying. AGW really pushes some people's buttons.
| 208 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:23:15pm |
re: #203 imp_62
But do you remember?
I used to tap trees in Vermont to get my maple syrup.
/
I don't really remember that....... I'm disappointed they no longer have it though.
| 209 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:23:50pm |
| 210 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:24:01pm |
| 211 |
CarleeCork Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:24:43pm |
| 212 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:24:53pm |
re: #208 Mr Pancakes
I used to tap trees in Vermont to get my maple syrup.
/I don't really remember that... I'm disappointed they no longer have it though.
I remember it from when I would go out for pancakes with my grandma. If the real syrup wasn't out, you could ask for it. My sister and I used to have contests to see who could identify the real syrup by smell.
| 213 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:25:13pm |
| 214 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:25:35pm |
| 215 |
CarleeCork Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:26:22pm |
re: #214 imp_62
Actually, I think he is quoting Eddie Murphy in 24 Hours.
You just had to ruin it, smarty britches.
| 216 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:26:59pm |
| 217 |
freetoken Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:27:15pm |
re: #207 NJDhockeyfan
Thank you. I am trying. AGW really pushes some people's buttons.
Art Robinson is one of the most notorious anti-AGW-science (and just all round anti-science) personalities running in the current election.
That on a thread whose topic is Art Robinson you'd chime in to support one of his beliefs is bound to draw attention.
| 218 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:27:18pm |
re: #210 NJDhockeyfan
It doesn't make me equal with him either.
That is true. You're not an asshole liar and he is.
| 219 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:28:09pm |
re: #214 imp_62
Actually, I think he is quoting Eddie Murphy in 24 Hours.
Actually that quote might have been buried somewhere in my brain....... but I didn't draw from that.
| 220 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:28:27pm |
If anybody is ever passing through Rochester NY (otherwise known as the last stop before the middle of nowhere) - lunch is on me. If we get along, so are drinks.
| 221 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:28:30pm |
| 222 |
rikzilla Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:29:16pm |
re: #23 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
*ahem* Satellite communications do run at the speed of light. What causes satellite delay is that modern communications satellites are usually found in geostationary orbits. That means the signal must travel 20,000 miles to the bird and 20,000 miles back down to the receiving earth station. The round trip delay is generally around 600 to 800 milliseconds, but if there are clouds, rain, temperature inversions, haze, etc which could induce errors the delay could be a bit longer because of the retransmission of errored data packets.
| 223 |
Digital Display Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:29:28pm |
re: #190 NJDhockeyfan
Real men don't eat quiche.
/
I grew up eating quiche in Napa Valley...Of course I love anything with eggs in it..I don't care if they are raw..Like in Rocky..easy over, Scrambled...quiche...It doesn't matter...I love eggs in any form known to man...The greatest food known to Mankind...
| 224 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:29:29pm |
re: #217 freetoken
Art Robinson is one of the most notorious anti-AGW-science (and just all round anti-science) personalities running in the current election.
That on a thread whose topic is Art Robinson you'd chime in to support one of his beliefs is bound to draw attention.
It started last thread. I had no intentions to bring it over here but was forced to talk about it. It's all Obdicut's fault.
| 225 |
goddamnedfrank Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:29:45pm |
re: #206 imp_62
Now, now. Lack of information and education on an issue does not a lunatic make. Hell, Robinson has an outstanding education, which he now uses to dig scientific latrines.
Both of these droolers are maintaining a deliberate ignorance on the subject, no amount of evidence is ever or could ever move them to acknowledge reality because no amount of education will impart knowledge or understanding in an unthinking ideologue. We might as well be talking to a truther, birther, flat-earth believing contrail conspiracist. The more proof piles up the more hardened their positions become.
| 226 |
CarleeCork Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:31:16pm |
re: #214 imp_62
Actually, I think he is quoting Eddie Murphy in 24 Hours.
Actually it came from Blade 2. I just looked it up. Did Eddie say it first?
| 227 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:32:39pm |
re: #226 CarleeCork
Actually it came from Blade 2. I just looked it up. Did Eddie say it first?
I never saw Blade 2
| 228 |
CarleeCork Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:32:50pm |
re: #223 HoosierHoops
I grew up eating quiche in Napa Valley...Of course I love anything with eggs in it..I don't care if they are raw..Like in Rocky..easy over, Scrambled...quiche...It doesn't matter...I love eggs in any form known to man...The greatest food known to Mankind...
You and me both, I have an egg every morning. A morning without an egg is like a day without sunshine!
| 229 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:32:56pm |
re: #222 rikzilla
*ahem* Satellite communications do run at the speed of light. What causes satellite delay is that modern communications satellites are usually found in geostationary orbits. That means the signal must travel 20,000 miles to the bird and 20,000 miles back down to the receiving earth station. The round trip delay is generally around 600 to 800 milliseconds, but if there are clouds, rain, temperature inversions, haze, etc which could induce errors the delay could be a bit longer because of the retransmission of errored data packets.
And this idiot did not realize that.
| 230 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:33:22pm |
re: #224 NJDhockeyfan
Refusing to admit to any fault (even when you are badly in error on the science) and instead blaming everything on someone else is ugly and wrong.
re: #225 goddamnedfrank
Calling any LGF regular a "drooler" is being an insulting ass. Being utterly frank is one thing. but hurling insults like that is another matter.
| 231 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:33:25pm |
re: #225 goddamnedfrank
Both of these droolers are maintaining a deliberate ignorance on the subject, no amount of evidence is ever or could ever move them to acknowledge reality because no amount of education will impart knowledge or understanding in an unthinking ideologue. We might as well be talking to a truther, birther, flat-earth believing contrail conspiracist. The more proof piles up the more hardened their positions become.
True of Robinson, certainly, who is a "bad science" advocate. I think our resident Devils fan is simply waiting to be convinced within the four corners of his intellectual capacity and educational background to be educated on the matter. It really isn't simple stuff, merely because it is proven fact.
| 232 |
Digital Display Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:33:39pm |
Good night Lizards..
Think I'll have a fried egg sandwich for a late night snack..
Don't you judge me!
Be well
| 233 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:33:52pm |
re: #223 HoosierHoops
I grew up eating quiche in Napa Valley...Of course I love anything with eggs in it..I don't care if they are raw..Like in Rocky..easy over, Scrambled...quiche...It doesn't matter...I love eggs in any form known to man...The greatest food known to Mankind...
My grandmother (from England) used to make me 3 minute eggs when I was a little kid. That's the only time I ever had it. She would place the egg on her little porcelain egg holder, crack open the top of the egg, and let me eat the egg in the shell.
I miss her so much.
| 234 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:34:21pm |
re: #232 HoosierHoops
Good night Lizards..
Think I'll have a fried egg sandwich for a late night snack..
Don't you judge me!
Be well
I fike my undercooked eggs with a dash of salmonella.
| 235 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:34:39pm |
re: #228 CarleeCork
You and me both, I have an egg every morning. A morning without an egg is like a day without sunshine!
Terrible secret about to be revealed. I am not a southerner, however I really like - grits. Most days, I make myself a bowl of grits, two poached eggs and some whole wheat toast for breakfast.
| 236 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:36:14pm |
re: #233 NJDhockeyfan
My grandmother (from England) used to make me 3 minute eggs when I was a little kid. That's the only time I ever had it. She would place the egg on her little porcelain egg holder, crack open the top of the egg, and let me eat the egg in the shell.
I miss her so much.
English Breakfast I intend to have within the next couple of days: Eggs on toast. Baked beans. Fried tomato. Milky tea. Comfort food...
| 237 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:36:27pm |
re: #227 Mr Pancakes
I never saw Blade 2
You didn't miss much. It was the worst of the three movies. The other two pitted Blade against nasty but still fun villains. 2 had a too serious vampire leader who turns out to be a bad guy.
| 238 |
CarleeCork Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:36:29pm |
re: #235 imp_62
Terrible secret about to be revealed. I am not a southerner, however I really like - grits. Most days, I make myself a bowl of grits, two poached eggs and some whole wheat toast for breakfast.
Another great movie quote. "What's a grit?"
BTW, I love grits.
| 239 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:38:12pm |
re: #237 Dark_Falcon
You didn't miss much. It was the worst of the three movies. The other two pitted Blade against nasty but still fun villains. 2 had a too serious vampire leader who turns out to be a bad guy.
I just got Netflix....... what an incredible service! I'll put it in cue....... bad movies are my passion.
| 240 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:38:42pm |
re: #235 imp_62
Terrible secret about to be revealed. I am not a southerner, however I really like - grits. Most days, I make myself a bowl of grits, two poached eggs and some whole wheat toast for breakfast.
How do you cook your grits? Do you like them regular, creamy or al dente?
~ Vinny Gambini
| 241 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:39:03pm |
re: #238 CarleeCork
Another great movie quote. "What's a grit?"
BTW, I love grits.
One of the best movies ever.
| 242 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:40:00pm |
re: #230 Dark_Falcon
Refusing to admit to any fault (even when you are badly in error on the science) and instead blaming everything on someone else is ugly and wrong.
re: #225 goddamnedfrank
Calling any LGF regular a "drooler" is being an insulting ass. Being utterly frank is one thing. but hurling insults like that is another matter.
I didn't see the post...... but I would have to agree with that...... "drooler" is over the top.
| 243 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:40:28pm |
re: #233 NJDhockeyfan
My grandmother (from England) used to make me 3 minute eggs when I was a little kid. That's the only time I ever had it. She would place the egg on her little porcelain egg holder, crack open the top of the egg, and let me eat the egg in the shell.
I miss her so much.
I call that egg in a cup. My S. African mother passed that one on.
| 244 |
CarleeCork Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:40:45pm |
re: #241 imp_62
One of the best movies ever.
Totally. I watch it at least once every couple of months.
| 245 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:41:12pm |
re: #242 Mr Pancakes
I didn't see the post... but I would have to agree with that... "drooler" is over the top.
I would never call him a "drooler" over his scientific ineptitude. But for liking the Devils - that's a horse of a different colour.
| 246 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:41:14pm |
re: #237 Dark_Falcon
You didn't miss much. It was the worst of the three movies. The other two pitted Blade against nasty but still fun villains. 2 had a too serious vampire leader who turns out to be a bad guy.
I liked the Reaper virus vampires.
| 247 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:41:24pm |
re: #243 Stanley Sea
I call that egg in a cup. My S. African mother passed that one on.
3 minutes? I call that egg soup in a cup.
| 248 |
CarleeCork Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:42:16pm |
re: #233 NJDhockeyfan
My grandmother (from England) used to make me 3 minute eggs when I was a little kid. That's the only time I ever had it. She would place the egg on her little porcelain egg holder, crack open the top of the egg, and let me eat the egg in the shell.
I miss her so much.
What a sweet memory. I hope my grandkids remember me with such love.
| 249 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:42:26pm |
re: #245 imp_62
I would never call him a "drooler" over his scientific ineptitude. But for liking the Devils - that's a horse of a different colour.
Not that's hitting below the belt!
| 250 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:42:52pm |
re: #247 Mr Pancakes
3 minutes? I call that egg soup in a cup.
Toast buttered & cut into dipping strips. The top of the egg resting on the spoon with salt. mmm memories.
| 251 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:42:56pm |
re: #245 imp_62
I would never call him a "drooler" over his scientific ineptitude. But for liking the Devils - that's a horse of a different colour.
I know..... I cringe with the personal attacks...... so be it.
| 252 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:43:30pm |
re: #247 Mr Pancakes
3 minutes? I call that egg soup in a cup.
Disagree. 3 minutes is 1 minute too long for an egg. The white should be a pearly and nearly transparent white, the yolk a triumphant yellow untinged by white.
| 253 |
plooger Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:43:30pm |
Re: the Maddow/Art Robinson interview...
It's really getting to the point, as I see more and more of these candidates, that I'd have a hard time pulling the lever for Honest Abe, here in Illinois, if he had an "(R)" behind his name, knowing that he'd be putting these R-tards one seat closer to being in charge of the country's agenda.
Thanks for posting this thread/video.
| 254 |
CarleeCork Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:43:42pm |
I still say we should all blow this joint and hit the IHOP!
| 255 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:44:12pm |
re: #250 Stanley Sea
Toast buttered & cut into dipping strips. The top of the egg resting on the spoon with salt. mmm memories.
I have no problem with runny yolks...... runny whites are a different matter.
| 256 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:44:24pm |
My grandmother is an American. She served me Ovaltine while watching Perry Mason.
Which has led to the inescapable feeling that all murder investigations should be wrapped up in about 50 minutes, including a dramatic confession in a courtroom, and that food should be REALLY processed.
*waves flag*
(Of course I'm not terribly serious. Unless you have something to confess.)
| 257 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:44:31pm |
| 258 |
rikzilla Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:44:49pm |
re: #229 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Oh, I see.... I'm late to this thread anyway (shrug) it's just not often I get to put my two cents in. I work for Verizon in an international network control site. While I work with the satellite guys I don't know all that they know on the subject. Most of our satellite circuits are just data and not video so the latency isn't usually a big deal. When you get into live video though it's very stressful to the circuit...the more errors, the more lag...it also depends how fast the circuit is that they are trying to use.
Technology is pretty amazing...it's really a wonder all this stuff works as well as it does on a daily basis given all the stuff that can go wrong.
| 259 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:45:18pm |
re: #254 CarleeCork
I still say we should all blow this joint and hit the IHOP!
Do they have 3 minute eggs served by an lovely elderly grey-haired woman?
| 260 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:45:39pm |
re: #256 EmmmieG
My grandmother is an American. She served me Ovaltine while watching Perry Mason.
Which has led to the inescapable feeling that all murder investigations should be wrapped up in about 50 minutes, including a dramatic confession in a courtroom, and that food should be REALLY processed.
*waves flag*
(Of course I'm not terribly serious. Unless you have something to confess.)
You're my age...... remember Bosco?
| 261 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:45:50pm |
re: #253 plooger
Re: the Maddow/Art Robinson interview...
It's really getting to the point, as I see more and more of these candidates, that I'd have a hard time pulling the lever for Honest Abe, here in Illinois, if he had an "(R)" behind his name, knowing that he'd be putting these R-tards one seat closer to being in charge of the country's agenda.
Thanks for posting this thread/video.
You could always go back in time and vote for the pre-Republican Abe. And bring back some firewood, please.
| 262 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:46:29pm |
re: #253 plooger
Re: the Maddow/Art Robinson interview...
It's really getting to the point, as I see more and more of these candidates, that I'd have a hard time pulling the lever for Honest Abe, here in Illinois, if he had an "(R)" behind his name, knowing that he'd be putting these R-tards one seat closer to being in charge of the country's agenda.
Thanks for posting this thread/video.
Oh look - yer a newb. Welcome, Plogger.
| 263 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:46:47pm |
re: #256 EmmmieG
My grandmother is an American. She served me Ovaltine while watching Perry Mason.
Which has led to the inescapable feeling that all murder investigations should be wrapped up in about 50 minutes, including a dramatic confession in a courtroom, and that food should be REALLY processed.
*waves flag*
(Of course I'm not terribly serious. Unless you have something to confess.)
My kids have Ovaltine all the time. They think it's only chocolate milk.
| 264 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:46:54pm |
re: #260 Mr Pancakes
You're my age... remember Bosco?
Nope. My mother didn't do chocolate milk (she took her chocolate straight up, no chaser), and Grandma only did Ovaltine.
| 265 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:47:13pm |
re: #246 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
I liked the Reaper virus vampires.
They were just plain scary. But they weren't a true villain, not even the first of them. The Reaper virus was just a classic world-ending plague that must be contained. Stephen Dorff Parker Posey both has fun vampire leader characters that helped their Blade movies, IMO. And Ryan Reynolds was an excellent casting choice for Blade Trinity.
| 266 |
avanti Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:47:30pm |
Karen Angle talks about two American cities that have been "taken over" by the Muslims:
Angle: Muslim law taking hold in parts of US
"My thoughts are these, first of all, Dearborn, Michigan, and Frankford, Texas are on American soil, and under constitutional law. Not Sharia law. And I don't know how that happened in the United States," she said. "It seems to me there is something fundamentally wrong with allowing a foreign system of law to even take hold in any municipality or government situation in our United States."
| 268 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:49:17pm |
Since we are strolling down breakfast memory lane: I would occasionally walk to school with friends in the city where I grew up. There was a chain of restaurants where you could buy either the "large" or the "small" breakfast. Large was a croissant, another type of roll, butter, jam, coffee and juice. Best breakfasts ever.
| 269 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:49:20pm |
| 270 |
CarleeCork Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:50:28pm |
re: #259 NJDhockeyfan
Do they have 3 minute eggs served by an lovely elderly grey-haired woman?
I'm working on the grey hair. My son now calls me the greying mantis, I call them natural highlights. I figure four grandkids entitle me to have grey hair and I do cook great softboiled eggs.
| 271 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:52:15pm |
And here we go again;
Angle: Muslim law taking hold in parts of US
In a recording of the rally provided to The Associated Press by the Mesquite Local News, a man is heard asking Angle : "I keep hearing about Muslims wanting to take over the United States ... on a TV program just last night, I saw that they are taking over a city in Michigan and the residents of the city, they want them out. They want them out. So, I want to hear your thoughts about that."
Angle responds that "we're talking about a militant terrorist situation, which I believe it isn't a widespread thing, but it is enough that we need to address, and we have been addressing it."
"My thoughts are these, first of all, Dearborn, Michigan, and Frankford, Texas are on American soil, and under constitutional law. Not Sharia law. And I don't know how that happened in the United States," she said. "It seems to me there is something fundamentally wrong with allowing a foreign system of law to even take hold in any municipality or government situation in our United States."
Dearborn, Mich., has a thriving Muslim community. It was not immediately clear why Angle singled out Frankford, Texas, a former town that was annexed into Dallas around 1975.
| 272 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:52:16pm |
re: #270 CarleeCork
I'm working on the grey hair. My son now calls me the greying mantis, I call them natural highlights. I figure four grandkids entitle me to have grey hair and I do cook great softboiled eggs.
That's great
| 273 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:53:19pm |
Happening tomorrow:
Image: BakedBeansAndEggOnToast.jpg
| 274 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:53:26pm |
re: #271 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
And here we go again;
The only part of Sharia Law that I want, is the part where I don't pay interest.
| 275 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:54:08pm |
| 276 |
CarleeCork Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:54:10pm |
re: #272 Mr Pancakes
That's great
That I have grey hair and I'm getting old? I guess it beats the alternative.
| 277 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:54:56pm |
re: #274 Mr Pancakes
I can't help but notice that you will upding any post to do with breakfast foods.
| 278 |
freetoken Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:55:03pm |
re: #274 Mr Pancakes
The only part of Sharia Law that I want, is the part where I don't pay interest.
That's worth serious consideration, I believe.
| 279 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:56:08pm |
re: #276 CarleeCork
That I have grey hair and I'm getting old? I guess it beats the alternative.
I'm grey..... I just shave my head...... and no...... I'm not bald.
Men are accepted more with grey hair than women are. It's true, sad to say.
| 280 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:56:33pm |
re: #276 CarleeCork
That I have grey hair and I'm getting old? I guess it beats the alternative.
How so? Would not the alternative be not to age and retain your lustrous youthful - ummm - guessing chestnut brown hair?
| 281 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:57:12pm |
re: #277 imp_62
I can't help but notice that you will upding any post to do with breakfast foods.
In dinner threads you will see a lot of downdings.
| 282 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:57:22pm |
re: #279 Mr Pancakes
I'm grey... I just shave my head... and no... I'm not bald.
Men are accepted more with grey hair than women are. It's true, sad to say.
Johnny Carson had the best grey hair.
| 283 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:57:53pm |
re: #278 freetoken
That's worth serious consideration, I believe.
You still pay investors. You simply do so by way of a participation in positive cashflow generated by the business.
| 284 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:58:54pm |
re: #283 imp_62
You still pay investors. You simply do so by way of a participation in positive cashflow generated by the business.
Party-pooper.
| 285 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:58:54pm |
re: #282 NJDhockeyfan
Johnny Carson had the best grey hair.
Admit it - you're just happy we're not talking about climate change anymore.
| 286 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:59:01pm |
re: #283 imp_62
You still pay investors. You simply do so by way of a participation in positive cashflow generated by the business.
Perhaps a monthly fee based on the amount of the loan until the loan is paid back.
| 287 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:59:27pm |
re: #285 imp_62
Admit it - you're just happy we're not talking about climate change anymore.
Shhhhhhhh
| 288 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:59:42pm |
| 289 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:00:13pm |
re: #285 imp_62
Admit it - you're just happy we're not talking about climate change anymore.
I was tired of discussing it a long time ago. Eggs & grey hair is much more interesting.
| 290 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:00:31pm |
re: #288 imp_62
Structuring sharia-compliant investments is big business.
It just tells me someone is getting the money.
| 291 |
avanti Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:01:06pm |
re: #271 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
And here we go again;
I beat you to the post by a few seconds, and that gave me time to check out more on the Catholic/Auschwitz story.
There is a Catholic center 550 meters from the camp and dedicated to interfaith dialog.
| 292 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:01:14pm |
re: #275 Mr Pancakes
I'm there! Where is it?
As stated above: Rochester, NY. Second right after the armpit of the world.
| 293 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:01:50pm |
re: #289 NJDhockeyfan
I was tired of discussing it a long time ago. Eggs & grey hair is much more interesting.
I guess Obi ran out of steam....... so...... is this game you call "hockey" played with a ball?
| 294 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:02:27pm |
re: #291 avanti
I beat you to the post by a few seconds, and that gave me time to check out more on the Catholic/Auschwitz story.
There is a Catholic center 550 meters from the camp and dedicated to interfaith dialog.
I raised this point a while back and got my teeth kicked in.
| 295 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:02:32pm |
re: #292 imp_62
As stated above: Rochester, NY. Second right after the armpit of the world.
No prob..... I'll be there in the AM..... I hope there will be parking.
| 296 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:03:45pm |
re: #295 Mr Pancakes
No prob... I'll be there in the AM... I hope there will be parking.
Ample free parking. Most of the Kodak and Xerox and Bausch & Lomb emplyees have fled town.
| 297 |
CarleeCork Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:03:47pm |
re: #280 imp_62
How so? Would not the alternative be not to age and retain your lustrous youthful - ummm - guessing chestnut brown hair?
The alternative is death. I prefer 'natural' highlights. I'm still ok for a grandma of four. Their friends think I'm pretty and cool. What more could I ask for?
| 298 |
freetoken Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:04:10pm |
re: #283 imp_62
It's something I've thought of bringing up before... but just never got around to writing about it.
Given our economic predicament and financial crisis, it seems to me that doing one of the following:
(1) instituting a very progressive tax system, without brackets but a continuous curve, with the highest percentage rates quite high; or
(2) outlawing usury;
will be necessary for the US to function if we want to maintain some sort of "middle class" (as it is called, though I don't like the term.)
| 299 |
FarmerCharlie Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:06:41pm |
re: #195 freetoken
We've written quite a bit about the guy:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
The Oregon Petition stuff is just the tip of the iceberg.
I knew that DeFazio had a right wing opponent, and when I heard the interview, I realized that the opponent was a bully; but I did not realize until I got home and Googled him that he was the same kook responsible for the Oregon Project. Interesting site you have here.
| 300 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:08:02pm |
re: #296 imp_62
Ample free parking. Most of the Kodak and Xerox and Bausch & Lomb emplyees have fled town.
Google maps says I'll never make it..... oh well.
| 301 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:08:28pm |
re: #298 freetoken
It's something I've thought of bringing up before... but just never got around to writing about it.
Given our economic predicament and financial crisis, it seems to me that doing one of the following:
(1) instituting a very progressive tax system, without brackets but a continuous curve, with the highest percentage rates quite high; or
(2) outlawing usury;
will be necessary for the US to function if we want to maintain some sort of "middle class" (as it is called, though I don't like the term.)
All very complicated, IMHO. I believe in a flat income tax, with exemptions for the working poor. Then, sales tax hikes and a VAT so that people who consume actually pay for their consumption. If this frees up more disposable income for the rich - awesome. Let them spend it - more money for main street. Let them save it or invest it: drive economic growth. But what do I know - I'm just a simple country banker.
| 302 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:09:01pm |
0re: #293 Mr Pancakes
I guess Obi ran out of steam... so... is this game you call "hockey" played with a ball?
Sticks and a frozen hard disk of vulcanized rubber. I have an old one given to me from a Washington Capitals game and 'Made in GDR' written on the side. (GDR is East Germany)
| 303 |
freetoken Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:09:02pm |
re: #299 FarmerCharlie
Interesting site you have here.
Charles has created one of the more interesting little corners of the internet, trafficked by a hodgepodge of wayward internet addicts, like me.
| 304 |
CarleeCork Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:10:07pm |
Later Lizards, parting is such sweet......pancakes.
Stay sticky.
| 305 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:10:43pm |
re: #299 FarmerCharlie
Welcome to LGF. What do you farm?
| 306 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:11:45pm |
re: #297 CarleeCork
The alternative is death. I prefer 'natural' highlights. I'm still ok for a grandma of four. Their friends think I'm pretty and cool. What more could I ask for?
A really nice set of steak knives?
Image: WHS-steak-knives_480.jpg
That's what I am jonesing for.
| 307 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:11:48pm |
re: #302 NJDhockeyfan
0
Sticks and a frozen hard disk of vulcanized rubber. I have an old one given to me from a Washington Capitals game and 'Made in GDR' written on the side. (GDR is East Germany)
Oh..... frozen surface with a disk.....hmmmmm kinda like fast soccer but you can use your hands..... works for me!
| 308 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:13:23pm |
Looks like Charles has opened the door for a while. Should be fun sock puppet stories tomorrow!
| 309 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:13:34pm |
re: #307 Mr Pancakes
Oh... frozen surface with a disk...hmmm kinda like fast soccer but you can use your hands... works for me!
You don't use your hands, you use a wooden hockey stick. It's the only sport I know where all the players use weapons during the game.
| 310 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:14:13pm |
re: #304 CarleeCork
Later Lizards, parting is such sweet...pancakes.
Stay sticky.
Not sure whether to be horny or hungry
| 311 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:15:19pm |
re: #309 NJDhockeyfan
You don't use your hands, you use a wooden hockey stick. It's the only sport I know where all the players use weapons during the game.
Hmmmm jousting?
| 312 |
mdey Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:16:30pm |
Wow, that was hilarious. I feel sorry for the students that had to sit through this guy's courses.
| 313 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:17:09pm |
re: #311 Mr Pancakes
Hmmm jousting?
Team shuffleboard on ice skates. Similarities between shuffleboard players and ice hockey players: no teeth.
| 314 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:19:14pm |
I can feel this thread running out of steam. Time to determine whether I can safely sleep in my own bed or whether it is the couch for me tonight.
Laters
| 315 |
freetoken Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:20:44pm |
re: #312 mdey
Robinson left university teaching very many years ago. He's been holed up in this own "institutes" for quite a few years. His only real students have been his children, whom he home-schooled. And, he's sold his home-school curriculum and material to thousands of others.
| 316 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:20:54pm |
re: #311 Mr Pancakes
Hmmm jousting?
Possible. Penalties with the stick include slashing, spearing, butt-ending, cross-checking, high-sticking, and hooking.
| 317 |
shutdown Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:22:18pm |
re: #316 NJDhockeyfan
Possible. Penalties with the stick include slashing, spearing, butt-ending, cross-checking, high-sticking, and hooking.
you forgot tripping.
good night
| 318 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:22:42pm |
re: #316 NJDhockeyfan
Possible. Penalties with the stick include slashing, spearing, butt-ending, cross-checking, high-sticking, and hooking.
I'm all for any sport that involves "hooking".
| 319 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:24:46pm |
re: #315 freetoken
Robinson left university teaching very many years ago. He's been holed up in this own "institutes" for quite a few years. His only real students have been his children, whom he home-schooled. And, he's sold his home-school curriculum and material to thousands of others.
I actually know a family who use the Robinson curriculum. They moved, so I can't tell you how it's working.
| 320 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:29:48pm |
re: #318 Mr Pancakes
I'm all for any sport that involves "hooking".
Hitting hard is legal and fun to watch. Here is my favorite hit...Scott Stevens hits Eric Lindros and knocks him out. Just beautiful...
| 321 |
Vambo Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:32:21pm |
re: #5 NJDhockeyfan
I missed this old thread:
GOP Candidate Arthur Robinson: Dump Oil and Nuclear Waste at Sea
He really believes that? What a fucking nimrod.
Dump oil into the sea!!!
WHAT COULD POSSIBLY BE BAD ABOUT THAT.
| 323 |
lostlakehiker Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:34:41pm |
Ack. He's not a scientist, he's one of those types who has to make a name for himself by saying off the wall things and dressing them up in scientific coats.
He's not a doctor, he plays one on TV.
If you're not really all that good at science, you have two choices. You can accept that obscurity and namelessness is your lot. That's the lot of almost everyone, after all.
Or you can go and try your luck on the alternate reality circuit, insisting, to the applause of the ignorant, that you have a special insight. One that, quite coincidentally, aligns nicely with their pet peeves and insecurities.
Well, that's Mr Robinson. Maybe he even believes his rubbish. Self deceit is bred into us; it's an amazingly effective fortifier when you're trying to run a bluff. if you honestly think it's not a bluff.
He has some debating skills. He never gives an inch, never gives a straight answer. He's all fight, on this Maddow show. But there's nothing behind that fighting spirit. No core truth that he can defend.
I won't curse him for a knowing charlatan. Can't be certain. But he for damned sure isn't a scientist.
| 324 |
freetoken Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:34:42pm |
re: #319 EmmmieG
I actually know a family who use the Robinson curriculum. They moved, so I can't tell you how it's working.
Any child will benefit from significant time investments, face to face, by one or more of their parents. Any parent willing to do the work it takes to homeschool no doubt is helping their child learn not just academic subjects but family bonding also.
Homeschooling works. However, it is also an open door to anti-modernism.
| 325 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:36:16pm |
re: #324 freetoken
Any child will benefit from significant time investments, face to face, by one or more of their parents. Any parent willing to do the work it takes to homeschool no doubt is helping their child learn not just academic subjects but family bonding also.
Homeschooling works. However, it is also an open door to anti-modernism.
Ironically, the point of the Robinson method is giving them the curriculum and letting them do it.
However, you are all home all day, so it's not like you're not interacting. Or so I think. I never did ask if they interact as much as other families.
| 327 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:39:55pm |
Princess finally got home from her event. Good night.
| 329 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:43:19pm |
Someone makes a comment about the "Power of Pussy", and over 120 comments go by without anyone linking this (NSFWish) music video?
I am disappoint.
| 330 |
darthstar Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:43:42pm |
The Freak!
The Freak!
The Freak was on fire!
We don't need no closer,
Let the motherfucker throw!
The ninth inning was really something to watch. Lincecum was set and ready to throw before the batters had both feet down in the box, and as soon as the bat got behind their ear, the ball was in flight. 14 strike-outs. Fuckin' amazing.
| 331 |
freetoken Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:44:41pm |
re: #325 EmmmieG
From reading Robinson's site I gather that his "method" is very heavy on having the child sit and read while the parent is nearby but not saying very much until the child asks a question.
My point is, though, that the parent is there.
| 332 |
Gus Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:45:16pm |
re: #329 Slumbering Behemoth
Someone makes a comment about the "Power of Pussy", and over 120 comments go by without anyone linking this (NSFWish) music video?
I am disappoint.
Where've you been hiding?
| 333 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:50:08pm |
re: #329 Slumbering Behemoth
Someone makes a comment about the "Power of Pussy", and over 120 comments go by without anyone linking this (NSFWish) music video?
I am disappoint.
That was me..... I don't know why everyone is whinging about AGW when we have the untapped power of pussy!
| 334 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:51:56pm |
An associate of Jerry Brown calls Meg Whitman a "whore" over pension reform (AUDIO)
In a private conversation that was inadvertently taped by a voicemail machine, an associate of Democratic gubernatorial candidate Jerry Brown can be heard referring to his Republican opponent Meg Whitman as a “whore” for cutting a deal protecting law enforcement pensions as the two candidates competed for police endorsements.
No class. Disagreeing with the issues is fine but calling her a whore is over the line. What a douchebag.
| 335 |
Gus Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:55:53pm |
Photochromes are a trip. They're from around 1890 to 1900. This one is from Germany.
[Link: www.old-picture.com...]
Looks like a real live gnome in the frame.
| 336 |
darthstar Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:56:19pm |
re: #334 NJDhockeyfan
An associate of Jerry Brown calls Meg Whitman a "whore" over pension reform (AUDIO)
No class. Disagreeing with the issues is fine but calling her a whore is over the line. What a douchebag.
She is a bit of a whore though.
/
| 337 |
3eff Jeff Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:57:50pm |
Ok, I'm late, but I wanted to address some technical points. First, Robinson is an idiot. A second and a half of speed-of-light travel will get you 3/4s of a round trip to the moon, but that ignores routing delays, which tend to swamp speed-of-light transit time. These are incurred at the satellite and both ends, not to mention any networking hardware between Maddow's studio and the room where the satellite uplink hardware is located. Routing delays are usually 3-6x as long as the actual speed-of-light transit time. For the jump up to geostationary orbit and back, the round trip is 44,000 miles give or take, which is roughly 70,000 klicks. Speed of light is 300,000kps and dividing gives you about a quarter of a second. So a second and a half is a pretty reasonable delay given the number of other links in the system, bandwidth and processing requirements.
Second, some of you know I'm pretty pro-nuclear. In fact, I would count myself solidly amongst the "buck up, a little radiation isn't going to hurt you, you pansies" crowd. Grinding up spent fuel pellets and dispersing the waste across the country is a terrible idea. Yes, there is scientific evidence that we may need a little radiation, but we already get that radiation. We're exposed to it continuously in the form of natural background radiation (from space and radioactive elements in the ground, like Uranium). A fine radioactive dust spread across the country will cause cancer (whether in the air or in water). I'm not even silly enough to try and argue against that. No matter how dumb prop 65 warnings are.
Diluting it in the ocean will work Ok for the short term (France does this, if not right now, they did it in the recent past). By short term, I mean at least a few decades, possibly a century. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be damaging to something. Just that we likely wouldn't notice for that initial time period. It is certainly not a very responsible thing to do. We should be storing it in stable formations or into subduction zones. Honestly, Nevada should offer the Federal Government a deal where the state charges for use of Yucca Mountain. If the state and its citizens were getting Alaska-oil style kickbacks (not necessarily as large, and maybe in a different form--significantly better infrastructure, etc.) for taking the country's waste, it would be an easier sell, and we could move on.
| 338 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:58:55pm |
re: #334 NJDhockeyfan
An associate of Jerry Brown calls Meg Whitman a "whore" over pension reform (AUDIO)
No class. Disagreeing with the issues is fine but calling her a whore is over the line. What a douchebag.
That race is the epitome of bad politics.
| 339 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:00:13pm |
| 340 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:01:04pm |
re: #332 Gus 802
Oh, you know. Going to and fro upon the earth, and walking up and down upon it. My usual gig. The pay sucks but the bennies are great.
I've also been helping a buddy of mine fix up some things after work hours on this spot he is renting. I know a fair bit about painting and electrical work, some more than others about plumbing, but I am pretty ignorant about the flooring, framing, roofing, hammer and nail stuff, which is what we've been doing.
The best part is that I am just ignorant enough about that stuff not to know how hard it can be, so I just jump in and have fun ("What's that you say? Tri-Tip and beer? I'm there!"). The cool part is I'm learning some new stuff, plus I get to hang out with a good friend that I don't often see. Did I also mention there's Tri-Tip and beer?
| 341 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:02:37pm |
re: #340 Slumbering Behemoth
Oh, you know. Going to and fro upon the earth, and walking up and down upon it. My usual gig. The pay sucks but the bennies are great.
I've also been helping a buddy of mine fix up some things after work hours on this spot he is renting. I know a fair bit about painting and electrical work, some more than others about plumbing, but I am pretty ignorant about the flooring, framing, roofing, hammer and nail stuff, which is what we've been doing.
The best part is that I am just ignorant enough about that stuff not to know how hard it can be, so I just jump in and have fun ("What's that you say? Tri-Tip and beer? I'm there!"). The cool part is I'm learning some new stuff, plus I get to hang out with a good friend that I don't often see. Did I also mention there's Tri-Tip and beer?
Can't pass up a good tri-tip...... homegrown California bbq.
| 342 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:02:51pm |
Crazy right wingers running for Congress gotta catch them all, just like Pokemon.
| 343 |
Gus Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:03:41pm |
re: #340 Slumbering Behemoth
Oh, you know. Going to and fro upon the earth, and walking up and down upon it. My usual gig. The pay sucks but the bennies are great.
I've also been helping a buddy of mine fix up some things after work hours on this spot he is renting. I know a fair bit about painting and electrical work, some more than others about plumbing, but I am pretty ignorant about the flooring, framing, roofing, hammer and nail stuff, which is what we've been doing.
The best part is that I am just ignorant enough about that stuff not to know how hard it can be, so I just jump in and have fun ("What's that you say? Tri-Tip and beer? I'm there!"). The cool part is I'm learning some new stuff, plus I get to hang out with a good friend that I don't often see. Did I also mention there's Tri-Tip and beer?
Ah, OK. Been busy I see. Was wondering where you went off to. Haven't seen you around these parts for weeks. Good to see you back.
| 344 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:05:01pm |
It's past my bedtime. Have a great night my scaly friends.
| 345 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:05:24pm |
Seriously though this guy is another nut, he wants to dump off in to the oceans? Not only is that wrong but it will ruin the fishing industry too. Not to mention ruin the lives of the awesome dolphins who kick ass.
| 346 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:05:55pm |
| 348 |
palomino Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:07:16pm |
re: #334 NJDhockeyfan
An associate of Jerry Brown calls Meg Whitman a "whore" over pension reform (AUDIO)
No class. Disagreeing with the issues is fine but calling her a whore is over the line. What a douchebag.
Don't be naive. In "private conversations inadvertently taped" these kinds of things are said all the time. There's a reason they say, "Politics ain't beanbag."
Do you really think Rove and Carville don't talk about people this way? Maybe not nice, but it's life in the big city.
| 349 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:08:36pm |
re: #333 Mr Pancakes
That was me... I don't know why everyone is whinging about AGW when we have the untapped power of pussy!
If only we could harness that power, Faster Than Light Speed would be ours to command, and we could discover the mysteries of the universe as one united people.
/And if we could harness the power of the Bee-Jay, we could fold space, time, and reality, easily traversing multiple universes that exist outside the grasp of mortal men in the blink of an eye.
| 350 |
3eff Jeff Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:13:27pm |
Alright, drive-by technical comment for me tonight. I'm going to bed, so any challenges to my comment or accusations of craziness on my part won't be countered by misunderstandings of satellite communication and denials of easily sourced statements written by my own hand. I'm just going to be sleeping.
Goodnight all.
| 351 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:14:12pm |
re: #349 Slumbering Behemoth
If only we could harness that power, Faster Than Light Speed would be ours to command, and we could discover the mysteries of the universe as one united people.
/And if we could harness the power of the Bee-Jay, we could fold space, time, and reality, easily traversing multiple universes that exist outside the grasp of mortal men in the blink of an eye.
I'm working on it.......
| 352 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:16:41pm |
re: #349 Slumbering Behemoth
If only we could harness that power, Faster Than Light Speed would be ours to command, and we could discover the mysteries of the universe as one united people.
/And if we could harness the power of the Bee-Jay, we could fold space, time, and reality, easily traversing multiple universes that exist outside the grasp of mortal men in the blink of an eye.
Believe me...... If I discover any breakthroughs to alleviate AGW..... I'll post them here.
| 353 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:17:08pm |
re: #341 Mr Pancakes
Can't pass up a good tri-tip... homegrown California bbq.
Um, it's spelled Tri-Tip. Capital "T's" always, never lower case. I'll thank you not to blaspheme the divine beef thusly in my presence.
re: #343 Gus 802
Ah, OK. Been busy I see. Was wondering where you went off to. Haven't seen you around these parts for weeks. Good to see you back.
FFS! Has it been that long? I guess time flies when your smashing your thumb.
| 354 |
Gus Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:17:27pm |
Dutch queen OKs government backed by Geert Wilders
Dutch Queen Beatrix has asked the leader of the Liberal VVD party to form a cabinet backed by the party of anti-Islamist populist Geert Wilders.
Mark Rutte will now head a centre-right coalition with the Christian Democrats (CDA).
The minority cabinet will have support of Mr Wilders' Freedom Party (PVV), which will remain outside the government.
The government says it plans to ban the full Islamic veil in the Netherlands.
It also wants to cut the budget by 18bn euros ($24bn; £15bn) by 2015, imposes curbs on immigration and increase the number of police officers.
The Liberals (VVD) and CDA hold 52 seats in the 150-member parliament and will have to rely on the PVV's 24 MPs to get legislation passed.
The coalition deal has angered some CDA MPs who do not want to work with Mr Wilders...
Not exactly complete control but he sure has more power than ever before.
| 356 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:20:51pm |
re: #353 Slumbering Behemoth
Um, it's spelled Tri-Tip. Capital "T's" always, never lower case. I'll thank you not to blaspheme the divine beef thusly in my presence.
Didn't know that......... I love Tri-Tip, Fillet Mignon, and Rib-Eye.
| 357 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:21:27pm |
| 358 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:24:41pm |
re: #357 Slumbering Behemoth
So. Many. Jokes.
Can't. Focus. On. One.
*brrzzzt*
I'm doing major research.... and Lud says he's a scientist....... shaaa.
| 359 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:28:14pm |
re: #355 Gus 802
Couldn't be. That would mean I fucked up and accidentally got a life./
Only seems like a week, tops. Been busier than I thought, I guess. Have I missed anything important?
| 360 |
palomino Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:28:37pm |
Maddow and Anderson Cooper suffer from the same deficiency. They let their blowhard loudmouth guests babble on and on, and walk all over them.
People like Matthews and O'Reilly may be boorish, but at least they know who's running the show that bears their name.
| 361 |
Gus Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:30:04pm |
re: #359 Slumbering Behemoth
Couldn't be. That would mean I fucked up and accidentally got a life./
Only seems like a week, tops. Been busier than I thought, I guess. Have I missed anything important?
Not much really other than a few bannings. Everyone seems to be doing OK health wise.
| 362 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:30:13pm |
Goodnight all.
| 363 |
Gus Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:31:51pm |
Oh brother. Last night I was watching some stupid Youtubers and their feud videos. So boring. So obnoxious.
| 364 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:32:17pm |
re: #361 Gus 802
Not much really other than a few bannings.
Anyone I know, or just the usual sock puppet/sleeper accounts?
| 365 |
Gus Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:34:34pm |
re: #364 Slumbering Behemoth
Anyone I know, or just the usual sock puppet/sleeper accounts?
Mostly the usual sock puppets. I don't know. Perhaps one or two long time members.
| 366 |
Summer Seale Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:41:52pm |
Wow, Art Robinson is such a rude fucking asshole. This guy wants to sit in office where the entire point of politics is compromise with several parties, and he can't even listen to anyone but his own ugly unceasing voice just to shut everyone else up around him?
What an ignorant asshat.
| 367 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:56:23pm |
| 368 |
Kragar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:02:38am |
| 370 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:13:03am |
Hoe. Lee. Shit.
Note to Mr. Robinson (and everyone else for that matter):
Do not, I repeat, DO NOT show up to an interview that sloppy drunk if you intend to discuss any topic that exists on a plane higher than the discussion of a Michael Bay film.
Unless you're Christopher Hitchens.
| 371 |
freetoken Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:19:08am |
re: #370 Slumbering Behemoth
Except he's not drunk - that's him sober!
| 372 |
AK-47% Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:22:56am |
Robinson: "You have just strung together a bunch of lies""
Maddow: "I am quoting from your own newsletter!"
| 373 |
freetoken Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:34:20am |
Since we're still on the nutbag Robinson, it should be noted that oft-attacked scientists Michael Mann has an editorial in the Fri Washington Post:
Get the anti-science bent out of politics
As usual, the early comments show that the wingnut contingent is out early doing their thing.
| 374 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:35:43am |
It's 2:35 AM, and I sit down to discuss fools.
| 375 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:36:32am |
re: #371 freetoken
Except he's not drunk - that's him sober!
I'd have to see a BAC test to convince me of that. The way he was swiveling that chair about, coupled with his instantaneously combative attitude and rambling accusations...
re: #372 ralphieboy
She should have just stopped trying engage him, and simply let him gibber on.
| 376 |
boxhead Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:39:01am |
Typical non stop talking skills crazies have. Why don't they need to breath? Are they zombies? Automatons? I bet he is immune to water boarding. He is the guy at the bar that is the buzz kill. You know the guy. Everyone knows not to make eye contact. Cause if you do, he will come over and talk you sober. After spending good money on fine booze these types will work your ear so hard that your alcohol blood level will be 0.000.
ran into one of those tonight... arrrrr
| 377 |
freetoken Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:43:24am |
| 379 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:45:47am |
| 380 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:48:56am |
re: #377 freetoken
That's not the Kawai operatic piece at the end of Avalon, but it's very much like it. What is it?
| 381 |
boxhead Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:49:09am |
dude can't remember that he said AIDS was fake only 15 years ago. damn this is hard to listen too. He is killing my buzz via teh intertubes....
| 382 |
freetoken Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:51:39am |
re: #380 Decatur Deb
The title is on the Flash gadget. It's from LOTR Return of the King. It's the music for the climax, I believe.
| 383 |
boxhead Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:54:00am |
at 15 min Maddow is stepping over the dude. ahh... Maddow is explaining why it seems she is stepping over him cause the 1.5 sec latency which the dude dismissed cause he thinks the satellite feed is speed of light. Obviously he is not a network dude.
| 384 |
boxhead Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:54:52am |
re: #383 boxhead
at 15 min Maddow is stepping over the dude. ahh... Maddow is explaining why it seems she is stepping over him cause the 1.5 sec latency which the dude dismissed cause he thinks the satellite feed is speed of light. Obviously he is not a network dude.
a few too many dudes in that post... :p
| 385 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:01:20am |
re: #383 boxhead
By 15 mins, she should have targeted his studio with fool-seeking missiles.
| 386 |
boxhead Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:04:01am |
re: #385 Decatur Deb
By 15 mins, she should have targeted his studio with fool-seeking missiles.
LOL... damn how I wish fool detecting was real... Just think how much better going to bars and clubs would be... heh
| 387 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:09:35am |
re: #386 boxhead
There was a great 50's sci-fi movie in which aliens who wanted our planet gave each of our government blocs little capsules with topo coordinate inputs. When activated, the capsule vanished and killed all humans within x,000 square miles of the target. The climax came when a scientist discovered the aliens had a moral streak, and that Mode 2 settings only killed the assholes within the effect radius. In the end the surviving non-assholes invited the non-asshole aliens to visit.
| 388 |
boxhead Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:11:50am |
re: #387 Decatur Deb
There was a great 50's sci-fi movie in which aliens who wanted our planet gave each of our government blocs little capsules with topo coordinate inputs. When activated, the capsule vanished and killed all humans within x,000 square miles of the target. The climax came when a scientist discovered the aliens had a moral streak, and that Mode 2 settings only killed the assholes within the effect radius. In the end the surviving non-assholes invited the non-asshole aliens to visit.
lol... can you find the name of the movie? Just think what Mystery Science Theater would have done with that... :)
| 390 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:14:31am |
re: #388 boxhead
escapes me completely. It was a B&W B movie, with a scientist like Sam Jaffee testing the capsules in a little life raft. A Google of "kill+asshole" will not return useful results.
| 391 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:17:34am |
re: #389 boxhead
mmm sleepy time now... late
Get some sleep. I'm about to start the 2nd pot of coffee.
| 392 |
harlequinade Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:29:46am |
re: #137 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Look at your post, now at mine. Now back to your post, now back to mine. Sadly, your post isn't mine, but if you stopped trolling and started reading it could look like mine. Look down, look up, where are you? You're scrolling through threads, writing the post your post could look like. What did you post? Back to mine, it's a reply saying something you want to hear. Look again, the post is now diamonds.
I want that framed and on a wall
| 393 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:00:51am |
What an unbearable jackass this man is.
For the record, Robinson is a failed biochemist. He is not in any position to comment on the science of AGW as if this were his area of expertise.
However, smearing AGW has been stock and trade for some time as he was a close associate of Frederick Steitz. Readers here might remember Steitz as the RJ Reynolds consultant who promoted tobacco and developed the strategy for clouding the issue in the public mind about the dangers of cigarettes. Steitz then went on to found the Marshall institute, to campaign for conservative/business causes. and later became a leading industry shill against AGW.
He and Robinson were the people who sent out the infamous OISM petition, which was fraudulently represented as being from the National Academy, against AGW. OISM is Robinson's institute. Both Steitz and Robinson were censured by the National Academy for this fraud. Further the petition was worded in a way to ask for more study, and then used as a political tool claiming that the signers were against AGW. Many thought it was from a kosher source, and said something different than what was later presented, by the fraud team of Robinson and Steitz. Many have tried to have their names removed. Many listed ever even signed. Many others who did sign aren't even scientists at all - or even hold a bachelor's degree in a physical science, let alone actual Climate science.
Now both Steitz and Robinson are remarkable creatures. Steitz was a good scientist who simply decided to go over to the dark side and make a lot of money even if it meant lying about science. Robinson, on the other hand, is a raving freakazoid nut sandwich who once could do science, but suffered a breakdown.
In addition to being an AGW denirer, Robinson is an HIV denier. He believes that hormesis applies to radiation. Now hormesis is the basis behind homeopathy. Homeopathy is complete bunk. However, hormesis is real for certain chemical interactions in the body. In some cases, a small dosage of a drug or a poison can elicit a large counter response from the body. In other words, with some toxins, in small dose, receptors in your body might trigger your body to go into overdrive to repair what the toxin would do in a larger dose.
This is a biochemical phenomena that only occurs for certain compounds under certain situations. Radiation - and in particular ionizing radiation, work entire differently. That is a physical interaction and not a chemical one with a totally different sort of mechanism. However, the body does have repair mechanisms against background radiation. This idea was studied thoroughly. Multiple studies produced by the national Academy amongst others showed that hormesis does not apply to radiation.
Robinson was once a good scientist. He went insane and became a fraud and an utter jackass along the way.
| 394 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:03:23am |
re: #388 boxhead
lol... can you find the name of the movie? Just think what Mystery Science Theater would have done with that... :)
Found it: The 27th Day! (Great use of insomnia.)
[Link: classicmovieguide.com...]
| 395 |
Summer Seale Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:22:22am |
re: #393 LudwigVanQuixote
You won me over at "unbearable jackass". The rest was just icing on the cake and necessary reasoning and explanation as well of course. =)
| 396 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:29:59am |
re: #165 NJDhockeyfan
There was record breaking cooling in a lot of places too. Big fucking deal. Mother nature does that all the time.
Le sigh
| 397 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:31:07am |
re: #125 NJDhockeyfan
The climate has been changing for millions of years and they just decided a few years ago that global warming is the fault of humans? That's why I don't believe it yet.
le dubble sigh
| 398 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:34:20am |
re: #397 WindUpBird
le dubble sigh
I had to upding the guy. He's wrong, perhaps willfully so, but he's not a frother like TPGOP Candidate Robinson.
| 399 |
AK-47% Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:39:26am |
I think the logic is this: science is bad, therefore bad scientists are good.
| 400 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:42:36am |
re: #398 Decatur Deb
I had to upding the guy. He's wrong, perhaps willfully so, but he's not a frother like TPGOP Candidate Robinson.
The sigh accurately conveys my feelings on the matter, which are more just resignation, politics trumps science
| 401 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:44:14am |
I can't stand Lou Dobbs so anyone who is in his face, I'm pretty okay with that [Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]
| 402 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:49:29am |
A little more from Robinson that should tell you everything you need to know about what sort of "scientist" he has become...
From: [Link: www.robinsoncurriculum.com...]
Healthy social, moral, and religious standards are also a very important part of college preparation. This is especially true of students in science and engineering, since Christian colleges are lacking in these subjects. This forces the student to attend a secular college. A young man or woman must be very well prepared in order to resist the temptations and pressures of these places. Everyone, no matter how well prepared, is susceptible to peer pressure. so this exposure should be limited.
...
College is an opportunity to gain knowledge and credentials — especially in science, engineering, and other specialties. At present, it is also a dangerous time which can threaten an extended family. Eventually, this threat will be removed by homeschool universities. There is reason to hope that such universities, accredited and of good quality may be only a few years away.
Robinson is obsessed with surviving a nuclear war. He wrote a book (or rather collected materieal written by other folks) with Gary North. Here is his buddy North.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: www.oism.org...]
Of course, Robinson is tightly connected with the Heartland institute as well... go figure.
Here is his institute's home page. It is important to note that two of the six faculty are his sons, who were entirely home schooled by him.
| 404 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:56:57am |
re: #402 LudwigVanQuixote
Fortunately, Nate Silver's 538 model gives his Democratic opponent a 99.9% chance. Robinson will be part of the TPGOP post-election reassessment.
| 405 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:05:17am |
re: #404 Decatur Deb
Fortunately, Nate Silver's 538 model gives his Democratic opponent a 99.9% chance. Robinson will be part of the TPGOP post-election reassessment.
Robinson's district he's running for is Eugene. So basically he'd have to get Oregon hippies, stoners, and college kids to vote for him :D
| 406 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:07:58am |
Ms. O'Donnell's new video is up on Gawker. It's still shot on the "Slough of Despond" set.
[Link: gawker.com...]
| 408 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 4:01:41am |
The new Texas textbooks are out:
| 409 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Fri, Oct 8, 2010 4:07:27am |
re: #408 Obdicut
That would be funny if it weren't true.
| 410 |
Kronocide Fri, Oct 8, 2010 4:21:25am |
O.M.F.G. Art Robinson is disturbingly irritating, not to mention nucking futz. My only criticism of Maddow is for not cutting him off sooner, but then again they had a segment to fill.
He did a great job of being the champion and the victim!
| 412 |
garhighway Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:12:54am |
Morning, all.
OT:
A nice piece by Krugman regarding the cancelled rail tunnel under the Hudson.
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
| 413 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:13:06am |
To be is to do - Socrates
To do is to be - Sarte
Do be do be do - Sinatra
| 414 |
garhighway Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:14:33am |
Also:
Congrats to the Nobel Committee for their choice on the Peace Prize:
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
| 418 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:30:30am |
re: #417 NJDhockeyfan
"Slapshot" was on yesterday. Watched it, told my wife that those guys looked just like my friend.
| 419 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:34:25am |
re: #418 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
"Slapshot" was on yesterday. Watched it, told my wife that those guys looked just like my friend.
Heh. I saw Paul Newman say that was his favorite movie that he made. It is a classic movie.
| 420 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:36:37am |
re: #419 NJDhockeyfan
I thought this was an interesting factoid...
The character of "#7 Clarence 'Screaming Buffalo' Swamptown" was played by Joe Nolan who, during a brief minor league career in the 1950's, accumulated almost one thousand penalty minutes in 6 seasons, including one with the Johnstown Jets.
From IMDB
| 421 |
Ericus58 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:41:45am |
re: #229 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
And this idiot did not realize that.
You are not an idiot, my Friend.
| 422 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:44:46am |
re: #420 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I thought this was an interesting factoid...
From IMDB
There were quite a few hockey players in the movie including most of the Johnstown Jets players. Also some parts of the movie were based on true stories like the scene when one of the Hanson brothers jumped into the stands and began punching the fans.
| 423 |
ihateronpaul Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:45:29am |
Why is it that idiot republicans expect me to believe all the pro-war propaganda they spew when they don't even live in this plane of reality??
| 424 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:48:11am |
U.S. Economy Lost Far More Jobs Than Expected Last Month
The economy shed 95,000 nonfarm jobs in September, the Labor Department reported Friday, with most of the decline the result of the layoffs by local governments and of temporary decennial Census workers.
The steep drop was far worse than economists had been predicting.
While total government jobs fell by 159,000, private sector companies added 64,000 jobs last month. The unemployment rate, which measures the percentage of workers who are actively looking for but unable to find jobs, stayed flat at 9.6 percent.
What a wonderful recovery summer we had!
/
| 425 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:48:28am |
re: #423 ihateronpaul
Why is it that idiot republicans expect me to believe all the pro-war propaganda they spew when they don't even live in this plane of reality??
You've now identified yourself as someone capable of free thought. The Happiness Patrol will be along shortly to escort you to the Disintegration Chamber. All Hail the Computer!
///
| 426 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:49:25am |
re: #423 ihateronpaul
Why is it that idiot republicans expect me to believe all the pro-war propaganda they spew when they don't even live in this plane of reality??
What pro-war propaganda?
| 427 |
Lidane Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:51:34am |
Completely OT, but if I ever agree to writing another group term paper, feel free to mock me ruthlessly. It's hard enough to edit the words of one person who has grammar issues, but when the other person sends you ten pages of unsourced writing, it's enough to drive me to drink at 8am. =P
| 428 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:52:23am |
re: #424 NJDhockeyfan
While total government jobs fell by 159,000, private sector companies added 64,000 jobs last month.
Government jobs were cut, and private sector jobs increased.
You think that's a bad thing? You'd rather see more government jobs?
| 429 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:52:39am |
re: #427 Lidane
Are you nuts? Send it back and tell them to source it, and tell them you deleted it. Then delete it.
| 430 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:52:57am |
re: #427 Lidane
Send it right back at them, with a copy of the MLA style guide attached.
| 431 |
Lidane Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:53:30am |
re: #429 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I already emailed her and demanded sources. I'm waiting for her to reply.
Her sections of the paper can wait. I'm dealing with the grammar issues person and my own sections in the meantime.
| 432 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:54:41am |
| 433 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:54:45am |
re: #427 Lidane
Completely OT, but if I ever agree to writing another group term paper, feel free to mock me ruthlessly. It's hard enough to edit the words of one person who has grammar issues, but when the other person sends you ten pages of unsourced writing, it's enough to drive me to drink at 8am. =P
Isn't academic and/or technical writing a bitch? I took a college course in technical writing at the same time as a composition course. Your brain gets pulled two ways since the general rules for one style often directly contradict the general rules for the other.
And unsourced material is essentially worthless in most places unless you're writing a novel.
| 434 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:56:01am |
re: #433 oaktree
My mom has been having to deal with people citing Wikipedia for quite awhile now.
Not to mention just heaps of plagiarism.
| 435 |
Lidane Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:57:31am |
re: #432 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Grammar's not that big a deal. The reason that person has issues is because she's Egyptian, so English isn't her first language anyway. I get that, and can turn her words into what they're supposed to be.
It's the ten pages of writing without any sources at all that kills me. WTF? This is graduate school. You can't do that.
| 436 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:57:45am |
| 437 |
freetoken Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:59:48am |
re: #412 garhighway
Makes me wonder if Christie isn't just trying to get his bona fides with the far-right, which as a group detest public transit.
| 438 |
freetoken Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:01:11am |
BTW, unemployment is expected to hover around where it is now for a very long time. This will be fodder for the political madness.
| 439 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:01:22am |
re: #428 Obdicut
Government jobs were cut, and private sector jobs increased.
You think that's a bad thing? You'd rather see more government jobs?
Gallup has a different number...
Gallup Finds U.S. Unemployment at 10.1% in September
Unemployment, as measured by Gallup without seasonal adjustment, increased to 10.1% in September -- up sharply from 9.3% in August and 8.9% in July. Much of this increase came during the second half of the month -- the unemployment rate was 9.4% in mid-September -- and therefore is unlikely to be picked up in the government's unemployment report on Friday.
Do you see that as a good thing?
| 440 |
Lidane Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:02:01am |
re: #434 Obdicut
My professors don't allow Wikipedia. If they see it, they immediately break out in hives and they'll tell you to go back and find a real source instead.
| 441 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:04:03am |
re: #440 Lidane
My professors don't allow Wikipedia. If they see it, they immediately break out in hives and they'll tell you to go back and find a real source instead.
It's a good place to find links to actual sources but I can understand why they don't like Wiki. It isn't totally trustworthy.
| 442 |
freetoken Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:04:30am |
re: #440 Lidane
Yet most articles at Wikipedia are sourced... so if you just use the sources that Wikipedia uses, the teachers likely won't know the difference.
| 443 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:05:11am |
re: #439 NJDhockeyfan
What are you talking about, dude?
The link you cited said the government shed jobs and the private sector added jobs. The private sector added jobs. That is a good thing, as I'm sure you agree. That government jobs were shed I don't think is a good thing, but I'd figure that you would.
| 444 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:05:32am |
re: #434 Obdicut
My mom has been having to deal with people citing Wikipedia for quite awhile now.
Not to mention just heaps of plagiarism.
My brother usually assigns his classes two papers to do. The first one is a fairly short paper, but he hands out a guide that covers how he wants references done and includes some general style tips. And this is fairly important since science papers/articles need to be formatted and cited in a specific fashion in order to get published.
Then he breaks out the red pen. He'll reject submissions multiple times, especially if they ignore the rules for citing sources. (And he has a specific entry that mentions that Wikipedia and many other web-sites are *not* acceptable as primary references.)
The other thing he notices a lot is that the students have been trained in writing a certain way by composition courses and that the requirements for academic writing are quite different. Keep it short and to the point, and keep using the same terms consistently. The flowery prose belongs elsewhere.
| 445 |
Lidane Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:05:38am |
re: #442 freetoken
They don't care if you use the source of the Wiki article. They just don't want to see Wikipedia cited anywhere, because they don't consider it academic.
| 446 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:08:54am |
The GOP - bought and paid for by foreign interests.
And good morning.
| 447 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:09:23am |
re: #441 NJDhockeyfan
It's a good place to find links to actual sources but I can understand why they don't like Wiki. It isn't totally trustworthy.
I looked up the movie "Cloverfield" on Wiki once, had the director as Michael J. Fox.
I shit you not.
| 448 |
freetoken Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:10:06am |
re: #446 iossarian
Sad to say, but Art Robinson is 100% American and 100% Americanism.
| 449 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:10:27am |
re: #443 Obdicut
What are you talking about, dude?
The link you cited said the government shed jobs and the private sector added jobs. The private sector added jobs. That is a good thing, as I'm sure you agree. That government jobs were shed I don't think is a good thing, but I'd figure that you would.
OK, I'll start partying then.
| 450 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:13:16am |
re: #436 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Steal from one source? Plagiarism.
Steal from several sources? Research.
| 451 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:14:03am |
re: #449 NJDhockeyfan
There's no call for partying. We're going to have high unemployment for awhile, I think, since corporations will be busy adding jobs in China, India, and other places where they don't have to worry about pesky things like workers rights. A recent attempt by the Democrats to close down a tax loophole that literally rewards US Corporations for moving jobs out of the country failed thanks to the GOP. A recent small business initiative by Obama has me somewhat hopeful, but the stratification of wealth over the past twenty years means that there's much less capital available in the middle class for entrepreneurship, and a lot more locked up at the top.
| 452 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:14:28am |
The politicians (on both sides) appear to have raised "shitloads" of money... based on my research primarily focused on fast-forwarding through DVR'd political ads.
| 453 |
Lidane Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:16:41am |
re: #430 Obdicut
Send it right back at them, with a copy of the
MLAAPA style guide attached.
This prof wants APA. That's another source of angst, since MLA was ruthlessly beaten into me in undergrad. Still, it's not so bad. I'm shamelessly borrowing style tips from articles in the Harvard Business Review. If it's academic enough for them, it will work for this prof.
| 454 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:16:58am |
re: #451 Obdicut
There's no call for partying. We're going to have high unemployment for awhile, I think, since corporations will be busy adding jobs in China, India, and other places where they don't have to worry about pesky things like workers rights. A recent attempt by the Democrats to close down a tax loophole that literally rewards US Corporations for moving jobs out of the country failed thanks to the GOP. A recent small business initiative by Obama has me somewhat hopeful, but the stratification of wealth over the past twenty years means that there's much less capital available in the middle class for entrepreneurship, and a lot more locked up at the top.
And small businesses will have it rough since they benefit from a more robust economy where the middle and lower classes have money to spend on things outside the bare essentials. (And I hope hot sauce is one of them...)
| 455 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:17:41am |
re: #452 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
The politicians (on both sides) appear to have raised "shitloads" of money... based on my research primarily focused on fast-forwarding through DVR'd political ads.
Yes, but the decision to allow anonymous funding (and hence open the door to foreign investment in our political campaigns) was a party-line GOP Supreme Court decision.
| 456 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:20:04am |
re: #455 iossarian
And appears to have helped the television stations earn millions in revenue.
| 457 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:21:17am |
re: #456 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
And appears to have helped the television stations earn millions in revenue.
Definitely a decision that Rupert Murdoch-- and his Saudi co-owners-- liked.
| 458 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:21:22am |
re: #456 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I'm sure that News Corporation employs some very highly paid tax accountants.
| 459 |
freetoken Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:21:50am |
re: #451 Obdicut
Agree that outsourcing labor to cheaper countries does mean that employment in the US is slow to build.
Yet there is even a more fundamental problem - what Americans value today does not require a great deal of local labor. We simply don't make choices that exploit the labor that is available. We would rather not invest in the physical plant - that which exists around us. We really do have a need to work on water supplies, sewers, railroads, reconstructing old neighborhoods, etc. Yet we tend to "invest" in highly transient interests that have little value past a few years, and are easy to make.
| 460 |
freetoken Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:22:36am |
re: #451 Obdicut
Agree that outsourcing labor to cheaper countries does mean that employment in the US is slow to build.
Yet there is even a more fundamental problem - what Americans value today does not require a great deal of local labor. We simply don't make choices that exploit the labor that is available. We would rather not invest in the physical plant - that which exists around us. We really do have a need to work on water supplies, sewers, railroads, reconstructing old neighborhoods, etc. Yet we tend to "invest" in highly transient interests that have little value past a few years, and are easy to make.
| 461 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:23:49am |
| 462 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:24:21am |
re: #459 freetoken
I'd agree with the point about labor-- we don't invest in the infrastructure and small-scale physical plant stuff, but when it comes to automation and the like, we do invest a lot-- bot those investments tend to cut jobs rather than increase them.
US manufacturing capacity has not gone down, contrary to what a lot of people believe, but the use of labor in manufacturing has; we've shed manufacturing jobs as we've increased productivity enormously.
| 463 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:24:24am |
I would love to as Scalia et al. what they think the Founding Fathers would have said if the East India company had anonymously given huge donations to a candidate for President who wanted to bring the US back into the Empire.
| 464 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:26:27am |
| 465 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:27:31am |
re: #461 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
re: #457 Obdicut
So... only folks on the right are using this? Gosh, they must be smart.
What are you talking about?
Right now, GOP-backing groups are outspending the Democrats by about 3-1. That's right now. There's no reason to think that'll be forever; the populist tide could turn very quickly and it could be the Democratic-backing groups doing the outspending. The point is not who is doing it, but that this backing means that the group doing the buys has a lot of power they didn't before. It means that those with shitloads of money became more powerful.
Whether they buy GOP victories or Democrat victories is trivial; what's important is the now nearly-unlimited power of these groups to at least attempt to buy victories.
| 466 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:28:09am |
Michael Moore even has a tax accountant...
I have no source for that, just a gigantic hunch.
| 467 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:29:37am |
re: #464 NJDhockeyfan
All the other news stations are using WH approved accountants.
I'm sure that the corporations that own MSNBC, ABC, and CNN are also mightily pleased with this. The modern media are a worthless jackhole of profiteering fools.
I don't think any of them will be able to achieve the success of Fox in turning the GOP into the political arm of their corporations, though. Fox got there first.
| 468 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:29:57am |
72,000 stimulus payments went to dead people
More than 89,000 stimulus payments of $250 each went to people who were either dead or in prison, a government investigator says in a new report.
The payments, which were part of last year's massive economic recovery package, were meant to increase consumer spending to help stimulate the economy.
But about $18 million went to nearly 72,000 people who were dead, according to the report by the Social Security Administration's inspector general. The report estimates that a little more than half of those payments were returned.
I wonder how many jobs this stimulus money has created or saved?
| 469 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:33:41am |
re: #467 Obdicut
All I know, is most of my DVRs are NBC (some funny stuff there)... been an equal opportunity fast forwarder.
I haven't watched anything on Fox in months... So, I don't know.
| 470 |
lawhawk Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:33:48am |
re: #468 NJDhockeyfan
I suspect that those figures would track the level of SS fraud. SS fraud - cashing checks of deceased is a far larger problem and other schemes defrauds all Americans to the tune of millions of dollars every year.
| 471 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:34:09am |
re: #468 NJDhockeyfan
Do you think Brietbart is a good source to cite from?
Since it's an AP story, you could cite that from pretty much anywhere. Why Brietbart?
To put the story in perspective:
There were 52 million stimulus payments.
89,000 is 0.17% of fifty-two million.
| 472 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:34:10am |
re: #468 NJDhockeyfan
This is too funny. You're complaining about potentially $9M of waste (it seems that more than half of the $18M was returned). This, by my calculation, is roughly 0.001% of $787B (which I believe was the original stimulus amount).
So there's 0.001% of waste in the deployment, compared to the ~25% administrative overhead of the health insurance industry.
Priorities!
| 473 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:34:32am |
re: #470 lawhawk
Receiving an incorrect check is not nearly as bad as cashing one?
| 474 |
Ericus58 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:37:30am |
re: #428 Obdicut
Government jobs were cut, and private sector jobs increased.
You think that's a bad thing? You'd rather see more government jobs?
"The recovery from the longest and deepest downturn since the 1930s has been slow to generate jobs. Private hiring last month was held back by the goods-producing industries, where payrolls contracted 22,000 as manufacturing employment fell 6,000 after declining 28,000 in August.
Construction payrolls fell 21,000, reflecting the lasting troubles in the housing market, after August's boost from the return of striking workers.
Private services sector employment rose 86,000 after increasing 83,000 in August. Temporary help services—seen as a harbinger of permanent hiring—increased 16,900 last month after rising 17,700 in August.
"Job growth in the goods producing industries has been bottoming out. What we need to see, to get a really positive feed back loop in the economy, is the services sector start to edge up,'' said Troy Davig, senior U.S. economist at Barclays Capital in New York.
The end of temporary census jobs and the loss of 76,000 local government jobs pushed total government payrolls down 159,000 last month."
[Link: www.cnbc.com...]
| 475 |
lawhawk Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:38:00am |
re: #467 Obdicut
The only other person who might be able to turn that trick is Carlos Slim, but he was dealing with the NY Times. Slim is a Mexican billionaire, and bought a major share of the Times for a song, but the Times isn't in the same ballpark or league as Fox, despite the Times' longstanding reputation for setting political agendas and political debate. It's not even in the same sport. Ted Turner could have done so if he wanted as the owner of CNN, and for a time he was moving in that direction but hasn't done so.
Now, if Slim bought up one of the major networks and started consolidating his holdings and pushing his own agenda, that's a different story.
The other networks are generally owned by corporations that hope to profit from their tv operations.
| 476 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:38:48am |
re: #474 Ericus58
I'm sorry, I'm not understanding the point of the bolded sections-- except that they match up with what I said earlier about corporations not adding manufacturing jobs here in the US, but out in China and other places in the developing world. Can you explain?
| 477 |
Daniel Ballard Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:40:36am |
Hello all, good morning to my hemisphere...
The California governors race just got a bit more entertaining...
| 478 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:41:13am |
re: #471 Obdicut
Do you think Brietbart is a good source to cite from?
Since it's an AP story, you could cite that from pretty much anywhere. Why Brietbart?
To put the story in perspective:
There were 52 million stimulus payments.
89,000 is 0.17% of fifty-two million.
I didn't even notice it was Brietbart's website. I clicked on the link at Memeorandum which shows the AP as the source. Not that it makes a difference, I doubt Brietbart changed the story.
| 479 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:41:18am |
re: #476 Obdicut
The explanation is that US workers can't expect to get their jobs back until they lower their standard of living to that of Bangladeshi sweatshop laborers.
| 480 |
lawhawk Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:41:25am |
re: #472 iossarian
How exactly is the health care reform going to improve the 25% overhead?
They certainly aren't going to reduce paperwork and overhead when they demand more paperwork for FSAs. The portion of the HCR dealing with FSAs is a disaster. The reform calls for doctors' notes to get otc drug reimbursement. That reduces the utility of the FSAs, and increases the burdens on doctors and patients to get the necessary paperwork, and then for the insurers to process the additional paperwork.
I see that as a sorely misguided reform attempt that does nothing to reduce costs of coverage and care - and FSAs were one of the few bright spots for health care since patients could choose the amount of FSA they want to devote to care based on their need.
| 481 |
lawhawk Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:43:06am |
re: #473 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Both are bad, but the act of cashing one of those checks is worse - as per federal law.
| 482 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:43:32am |
re: #480 lawhawk
The HCR bill is a mess and by itself is unlikely to lower administrative costs (I think it could well reduce costs by promoting preventative care though).
I see it mostly as the first step towards a real healthcare system that is able to reduce administrative costs. Allowing people to buy into Medicaid at cost would be the logical next step - I believe Medicaid's overhead is lower than the private insurers'.
| 483 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:43:52am |
re: #475 lawhawk
Carlos Slim is a good example. He's a large reason why Mexico's economy is in rough shape, too; he's got a monopoly and several anti-competitive conglomerate groups. He serves as an excellent demonstration of how politically powerful megawealthy people can choke off middle class entrepreneurship.
| 484 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:44:37am |
re: #480 lawhawk
BTW, the fact that the HCR bill doesn't reduce administrative costs is explained by the vast amounts of money that the insurers dumped into the lobbying process as it was being written.
| 485 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:46:17am |
re: #480 lawhawk
Final point - FSA's are great if you actually can afford to put money into them, and useless if you're on the minimum wage and can't afford asthma drugs for your child.
| 486 |
lawhawk Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:46:57am |
re: #483 Obdicut
The reason Mexico is in such bad shape has more to do with the corruption within the government, a lack of rule of law and an ongoing drug war that continues to expose the thoroughly corrupt government at various levels.
I see the corruption has more to do with the lack of opportunities for economic advancement and demagoguery by politicians doesn't help Mexicans hoping for a better way of life.
| 487 |
lawhawk Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:48:52am |
re: #485 iossarian
If you've got a child, you're likely going to be already eligible for medical insurance under SCHIP or similar programs that were widely available before and after HCR was passed.
| 488 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:49:27am |
re: #487 lawhawk
Remind me which party tends to want to expand SCHIP, and which tends to want to cut it.
| 489 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:49:30am |
re: #485 iossarian
The place that they work best, I think, is Singapore, which has a mixed health insurance and health care system: catastrophic insurance for all, subsidized general insurance, and a system of public and private hospitals where you can pay more for, basically, more frills like private rooms.
Here's a pretty good article on it:
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]
| 490 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:49:45am |
re: #482 iossarian
Medicare refused to pay for a very expensive drug for my mom. Mom and Dad would never be able to afford it, so they didn't do it.
Ready for a shocka? I'm glad they didn't approve it. I don't blame President Obama either.
I don't think that a couple extra shitty days for anyone is worth a hundred grand.
| 491 |
Ericus58 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:51:04am |
re: #476 Obdicut
I'm sorry, I'm not understanding the point of the bolded sections-- except that they match up with what I said earlier about corporations not adding manufacturing jobs here in the US, but out in China and other places in the developing world. Can you explain?
Explain?
those jobs created - majority seem to be service-industry related. Hardly the type that will sustain a typical middle class household.
You had a good observation on the manufacturing jobs-to-capacity aspect.
Those stats reinforce that.
| 492 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:51:23am |
re: #490 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I'm really sorry to hear that your family had to make that kind of decision. Whatever system is in place, that is always going to be a tough call.
| 493 |
lawhawk Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:51:48am |
re: #489 Obdicut
Can you scale the Singapore example to a national level covering 300 million plus people?
| 494 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:52:32am |
re: #486 lawhawk
Saying that the reason lies with government corruption is silly. Government corruption or co-option is obviously a large part of how Slim has been able to operate in a near-monopolistic or outright monopolistic fashion across so many industries. But the stratification of wealth is clearly a problem in and of itself, independent of government corruption. With so much wealth locked up with Slim and those in the upper strata like him, there is much less money available for middle-class entrepreneurship. We are starting to see some of the same effects of that here; for awhile the easy credit masked this, but now that credit for small businesses is hard to come by, it's becoming more obvious that it's harder for middle class people to afford to start small businesses.
| 495 |
AK-47% Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:53:04am |
re: #479 iossarian
The explanation is that US workers can't expect to get their jobs back until they lower their standard of living to that of Bangladeshi sweatshop laborers.
And US corporations have to be allowed to lower their safety and emissions standards to those of Pakistan...
| 496 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:53:16am |
re: #491 Ericus58
Explain?
those jobs created - majority seem to be service-industry related. Hardly the type that will sustain a typical middle class household.
You had a good observation on the manufacturing jobs-to-capacity aspect.
Those stats reinforce that.
Thanks, yes. I just didn't know what you were trying to draw attention to, since you didn't comment on it. That's all.
| 497 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:55:21am |
re: #495 ralphieboy
And US corporations have to be allowed to lower their safety and emissions standards to those of Pakistan...
Does make one wonder how such things would be viewed if one required corporate officers above a certain level to live/work downwind and downstream from their own operations.
| 498 |
Ericus58 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:55:34am |
re: #490 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Medicare refused to pay for a very expensive drug for my mom. Mom and Dad would never be able to afford it, so they didn't do it.
Ready for a shocka? I'm glad they didn't approve it. I don't blame President Obama either.
I don't think that a couple extra shitty days for anyone is worth a hundred grand.
I can't see for myself putting a potential financial burden on my family for a drug or procedure that gives me a few more months of misery.
It's a tough choice I'm sure, but to do so at the twilight of my life just seems selfish to me.
| 499 |
AK-47% Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:55:59am |
re: #491 Ericus58
Explain?
those jobs created - majority seem to be service-industry related. Hardly the type that will sustain a typical middle class household.
You had a good observation on the manufacturing jobs-to-capacity aspect.
Those stats reinforce that.
I believe that Bush tried to reclassify jobs at McDonald's as manufacturing sector positions: the employee was "manufacturing" a Big Mac.
Which would mean that working as a fry cook a the Waffle House counts as a high-tech engineering position.
| 500 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:56:03am |
re: #493 lawhawk
Can you scale the Singapore example to a national level covering 300 million plus people?
Yes. In many ways, we already have. We are not very far away from the Singapore system; we have broad mix of private and public hospitals. As you've noted, I think health care savings accounts are a good match for US citizens, since we like the idea of personal responsibility and saving for disasters. The means-based subsidies are effectively what happens already, where people with health insurance and taxpayers subsidize the health care costs of those without health insurance.
Can you explain a reason why you think the system wouldn't scale-- or rather, what scale has to do with it?
| 501 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:57:56am |
re: #499 ralphieboy
I believe that Bush tried to reclassify jobs at McDonald's as manufacturing sector positions: the employee was "manufacturing" a Big Mac.
Which would mean that working as a fry cook a the Waffle House counts as a high-tech engineering position.
That sounds like something that needs a solid cite. Otherwise it sounds like a piece of political propaganda. And wouldn't such a reclassification be something done by Congress, and not the Executive Branch?
| 502 |
AK-47% Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:58:09am |
re: #497 oaktree
Does make one wonder how such things would be viewed if one required corporate officers above a certain level to live/work downwind and downstream from their own operations.
I have no problem with the Third World competing with us on wages and benefits, that is the impetus we need to remain productive and competitive. But if we allow them to undercut us on basic safety and emissions standards we are doing nobody a favor.
I think that there should be tariffs for nations whose safety and emissions standards are not up to ours: it would serve as an impetus to them to clean up their act and not punish US corporations for maintaining their standards.
| 503 |
Daniel Ballard Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:58:51am |
re: #486 lawhawk
The reason Mexico is in such bad shape has more to do with the corruption within the government, a lack of rule of law and an ongoing drug war that continues to expose the thoroughly corrupt government at various levels.
I see the corruption has more to do with the lack of opportunities for economic advancement and demagoguery by politicians doesn't help Mexicans hoping for a better way of life.
I could cry for Mexico. I used to go for biz. Vibrant, growing, energetic and pretty safe. I would not dare go to the places and do the things we did then. I used to hang out with the government export guy for the state of Jalisco. Great fun in Guadalajara.
| 504 |
AK-47% Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:00:14am |
re: #501 oaktree
That sounds like something that needs a solid cite. Otherwise it sounds like a piece of political propaganda. And wouldn't such a reclassification be something done by Congress, and not the Executive Branch?
Cite and bite.
[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]
| 505 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:00:21am |
re: #498 Ericus58
Self-death-panelling!
I completely agree, by the way. I have a living will written out giving explicit instructions that nothing that merely extends suffering is to be done for me. A friend of mine is on a transplant board, and says that the calculus of potential life vs. quality of life vs. chance of failure is an amazingly complex one, every time. Every situation is somehow different, narrative, and it's hard to come up with an equation to cover it all.
She was pretty pissed about the 'death panels' thing.
| 506 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:01:23am |
re: #492 iossarian
Not a tough decision actually... for some families it might be... we're a practical lot.
| 507 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:01:24am |
re: #502 ralphieboy
I have no problem with the Third World competing with us on wages and benefits, that is the impetus we need to remain productive and competitive. But if we allow them to undercut us on basic safety and emissions standards we are doing nobody a favor.
I think that there should be tariffs for nations whose safety and emissions standards are not up to ours: it would serve as an impetus to them to clean up their act and not punish US corporations for maintaining their standards.
I suspect that too much political (local and international) flak would come up to make that feasible. Arguably you could follow that line to add tariffs for goods from countries that don't sufficiently support human rights as well.
And once you get into tariff/trade wars often both sides end up losing.
| 508 |
Taqyia2Me Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:02:28am |
Just heard Jim Jones is resigning his White House staff position.
| 509 |
Ericus58 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:02:44am |
re: #499 ralphieboy
I believe that Bush tried to reclassify jobs at McDonald's as manufacturing sector positions: the employee was "manufacturing" a Big Mac.
Which would mean that working as a fry cook a the Waffle House counts as a high-tech engineering position.
I wasn't aware of that, Bush's attempt that is.
| 510 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:02:54am |
| 511 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:03:41am |
re: #504 ralphieboy
Cite and bite.
[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]
Thanks for the quick response and cite. Pity I'm not surprised at the sort of twisting attempted there.
| 513 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:03:47am |
| 514 |
lawhawk Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:04:03am |
re: #500 Obdicut
As this Kaiser report points out, the Singaporean system doesn't handle the size elderly population that we have here in the US - and the elderly population in the US is the biggest consumer of health care.
Despite health care accounting for a low share of GDP, the Singaporean health care system is arriving at a crossroad as they face rapid growth and the challenges of cost containment as their currently young population ages and medical technology advances. The current financing of health care currently does not include long-term nursing care for the elderly since Medisave and Medishield are mainly used for acute hospital care. One of the proposals is to establish a long-term care insurance product, similar to Medishield. The government is also working towards harnessing information technology by establishing a National Health Information System that will incorporate electronic medical records across the health care system.
Singapore is trying to figure out how to pay for health care for an aging population. We're already at that aging population threshold.
| 515 |
AK-47% Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:04:51am |
re: #507 oaktree
I suspect that there would be a lot of flak, but we are doing ourselves no favors by allowing other countries to undercut us by scrimping on basic health and emissions standards. these are things that directly affect the price of a product, unlike abstract considerations like human rights.
Unless we are counting slave or prison labor, of course.
| 516 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:05:25am |
re: #509 Ericus58
I wasn't aware of that, Bush's attempt that is.
The article says:
The report does not recommend that burger-flippers be counted alongside factory workers.
Instead, it concludes that the fuzziness of the manufacturing definition is problematic, because policies — like, for example, a tax credit for manufacturers — may miss their target if the definition is overly broad or narrow.
The real shitty thing that report did was claim that it's good for us to have our jobs shipped overseas. It failed to distinguish between 'good for the economy/corporations' and 'good for the average American worker'. It talked only of the former.
| 517 |
Ericus58 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:06:14am |
re: #506 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Not a tough decision actually... for some families it might be... we're a practical lot.
I'm feelin' ya, FBV. My thought's for you and family.
| 518 |
AK-47% Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:07:23am |
re: #516 Obdicut
The article says:
The real shitty thing that report did was claim that it's good for us to have our jobs shipped overseas. It failed to distinguish between 'good for the economy/corporations' and 'good for the average American worker'. It talked only of the former.
What's "good for the American worker" seems to be a flood of cheap imported products available at the Wal-Mart, and a labor market consisting of working at the Wal-Mart or going unemployed.
| 519 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:07:34am |
re: #514 lawhawk
My mom has consumed about a million dollars in health care in the last four years of her life. We're approaching the end, but honestly? I don't think she she thinks it was worth it.
I might be for Death Panels. But, like I said, I'm from a practical lot.
Maybe a "Death Panel" just needs better marketing.
Now... I'm not advocating incineration chambers either.
| 520 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:08:00am |
re: #516 Obdicut
The real shitty thing that report did was claim that it's good for us to have our jobs shipped overseas. It failed to distinguish between 'good for the economy/corporations' and 'good for the average American worker'. It talked only of the former.
If profits go up, everyone* benefits.
* Disclaimer: "everyone" in this context is restricted to those owning shares.
| 521 |
Ericus58 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:08:02am |
re: #504 ralphieboy
Cite and bite.
[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]
"But, the president's report notes, even the Census Bureau has acknowledged that its definition "can be somewhat blurry," with bakeries, candy stores, custom tailors and tire retreading services considered manufacturing.
"Mixing water and concentrate to produce soft drinks is classified as manufacturing," the president's report reads. "However, if that activity is performed at a snack bar, it is considered a service."
The report does not recommend that burger-flippers be counted alongside factory workers.
Instead, it concludes that the fuzziness of the manufacturing definition is problematic, because policies — like, for example, a tax credit for manufacturers — may miss their target if the definition is overly broad or narrow."
| 522 |
Taqyia2Me Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:08:26am |
| 523 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:09:16am |
re: #514 lawhawk
That's not actually a matter of scale, then, but of different demographics. The funny part is that we already have a mechanism for dealing with health care for the elderly in place.
Increasing age of populations is a systemic problem across a huge number of different areas, like jobs-- a lot of unemployment is simply because people are staying in their jobs longer and not retiring-- housing, etc. That it affects health care is certainly true, but I'm not understanding how you're saying that shows the Singapore system couldn't scale to the US.
| 524 |
AK-47% Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:09:25am |
re: #519 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Maybe a "Death Panel" just needs better marketing.blockquote>
How about a "Life Panel"?
| 525 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:09:35am |
re: #522 Taqyia2Me
Do NOT follow anyone named Jones there!
Can we send a couple Senators there on a fact finding mission?
///
| 526 |
Ericus58 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:09:45am |
re: #516 Obdicut
The article says:
The real shitty thing that report did was claim that it's good for us to have our jobs shipped overseas. It failed to distinguish between 'good for the economy/corporations' and 'good for the average American worker'. It talked only of the former.
You won. I had to have a quick meeting with some peers.
| 527 |
lawhawk Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:10:37am |
re: #502 ralphieboy
That runs into a couple of problems - trade wars being one. Tariffs imposed in that fashion could result in reciprocal tariffs lodged against US products. It would also be seen as trade protectionism in 3d World Countries, and even some 2d world countries like China and India.
If there were some kind of international consensus/agreement on emission levels and/or fuel economy for vehicles, tariffs imposed on countries that don't meet those standards could work.
Working with the EU to come up with a standard that works across the US and EU could serve that same function since those are two of the biggest markets - and manufacturers of vehicles. Add Japan and South Korean and you've got most of the major manufacturers involved. Getting China to buy into that would be tough, but could ultimately result in far more efficiencies and fuel efficient vehicles.
| 529 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:12:58am |
re: #526 Ericus58
You won. I had to have a quick meeting with some peers.
I try to be fair to Bush the former, especially in the current climate where I miss him-- not as president, but as a semi-sane GOP leader.
I think the point about the blurriness between service and manufacturing is a fair one, though I'm comfortable with saying that there's a gray area, or a dual area. If I hire someone to hand-tool a machine for me, he's engaged in both manufacturing and service at the same time.
| 530 |
lawhawk Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:13:11am |
re: #519 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I feel for your situation and I know that you're not alone in that - both in the fact that there are millions of families facing tough decisions on end-of-life care. Balancing costs, quality of life, ability to pay, is one of the toughest (if not toughest) decision a person can make.
| 531 |
AK-47% Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:14:33am |
re: #527 lawhawk
Point is that the ideal of Global Free Trade and a level Playing Field are still a long way off, and US workeers are, overall, being disadvantaged much more than they are profiting from the benefits.
| 532 |
Slap Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:17:16am |
Good Morn, Land O' Lizards!
It's been a while since our last Tom Tomorrow update, if I recall.
And a couple about the Boy Detective (the deer stalker cracks me up):
Conservative Jones and the Mystery of Sharia Law
Conservative Jones - Ladies' Man!
Have a smile, and happy Friday!
| 533 |
lawhawk Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:17:20am |
re: #523 Obdicut
Scale and demographics are related - since ramping (scaling) up the Singaporean example to the US population would not affect the driver of US costs (aging population) and which Singapore is now dealing with - the aging population and for which Singapore doesn't have any good answers.
| 534 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:18:58am |
re: #531 ralphieboy
We have a huge weapon in our market; it hurts China a lot more if they can't sell in our market then it hurts the US to not be able to sell in China's market. We should be using that a lot more. Or, to put it in a more nuanced manner: Corporations that are directly benefiting from the low worker standards in China, while also benefiting from the legal and civic infrastructure of the US, could be made to pay for that double-dealing. Targeting the goods with tarrifs distorts the market and causes weirdness; targeting the corporations engaging in the unethical behavior makes a hell of a lot more sense.
| 535 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:20:12am |
re: #533 lawhawk
Scale and demographics are related - since ramping (scaling) up the Singaporean example to the US population would not affect the driver of US costs (aging population) and which Singapore is now dealing with - the aging population and for which Singapore doesn't have any good answers.
Why are you saying that Singapore doesn't have any good answers for the aging population, exactly?
Why are you concluding the driver for US costs is the aging population? Don't you mean 'a' driver?
Have you read this?
[Link: www.newyorker.com...]
| 536 |
Wozza Matter? Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:25:20am |
ooops, forgot i'd left myself logged in.
not like me to lurk. oh well.
laters gators.
| 537 |
Varek Raith Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:32:23am |
re: #94 NJDhockeyfan
I just don't buy it yet. Isn't that enough?
I don't buy that the Earth isn't flat.
Isn't that enough?
| 538 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:32:56am |
re: #537 Varek Raith
I don't buy that the Earth isn't flat.
Isn't that enough?
Whatever floats your boat.
| 539 |
Varek Raith Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:33:48am |
| 540 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:33:50am |
re: #508 Taqyia2Me
Just heard Jim Jones is resigning his White House staff position.
Interesting timing. I wonder what the inside story is.
| 541 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:34:23am |
| 542 |
Mr. Crankypants Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:35:04am |
re: #534 Obdicut
We have a huge weapon in our market; it hurts China a lot more if they can't sell in our market then it hurts the US to not be able to sell in China's market. We should be using that a lot more. Or, to put it in a more nuanced manner: Corporations that are directly benefiting from the low worker standards in China, while also benefiting from the legal and civic infrastructure of the US, could be made to pay for that double-dealing. Targeting the goods with tarrifs distorts the market and causes weirdness; targeting the corporations engaging in the unethical behavior makes a hell of a lot more sense.
Uberdings for dat! Too bad the political system is so riddled with corporate ownership that it will never happen.
| 543 |
lawhawk Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:35:57am |
re: #535 Obdicut
[Link: www.ahrq.gov...]
The elderly (age 65 and over) made up around 13 percent
of the U.S. population in 2002, but they consumed 36
percent of total U.S. personal health care expenses. The
average health care expense in 2002 was $11,089 per year
for elderly people but only $3,352 per year for working-age
people (ages 19-64).5
The elderly population is more likely to have chronic conditions and therefore the greater expenses. In particular see Chart 2 of the pdf linked above.
As for the Singapore example, as per that previously linked article - that country has not implemented the kind of program that we have here in the US (Medicare/Medicaid), and are trying to figure out how to fund a system along those lines, but runs up against the very problems we have here.
| 544 |
Varek Raith Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:36:27am |
| 545 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:38:36am |
re: #544 Varek Raith
Actually, if we'd just got around to warming the Earth a bit earlier, the Titanic would have been fine.
Damn those Picts and their low-carbon peat ovens!
| 546 |
lawhawk Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:38:58am |
re: #544 Varek Raith
Now why'd you go and get Kate Winslet involved in that? /
| 547 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:39:46am |
re: #544 Varek Raith
That was Bush's Fault™.
It was sunk by the Bush/Cheney iceburg torpedo machine.
| 548 |
Taqyia2Me Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:41:25am |
re: #540 NJDhockeyfan
Interesting timing. I wonder what the inside story is.
Two years seems to be the limit for high ranking admin. positions over these last 20 or so years...
| 549 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:41:26am |
re: #547 NJDhockeyfan
It was sunk by the Bush/Cheney iceburg torpedo machine.
You forgot Halliburton.
| 550 |
Varek Raith Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:42:44am |
| 551 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:43:46am |
re: #549 Cannadian Club Akbar
You forgot Halliburton.
Was it built by Halliburton? I haven't been updated on these important top sekret reports.
| 552 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:44:31am |
re: #543 lawhawk
The elderly population is more likely to have chronic conditions and therefore the greater expenses. In particular see Chart 2 of the pdf linked above.
I understand that just fine. That doesn't mean you're in any way right to claim it is THE driver of health care costs. Did you read the article I linked?
As for the Singapore example, as per that previously linked article - that country has not implemented the kind of program that we have here in the US (Medicare/Medicaid), and are trying to figure out how to fund a system along those lines, but runs up against the very problems we have here.
So how does that equate to 'not having any answers', exactly? That, to me, says that they're attempting to solve the problem, not that they've thrown up their hands and declared it to be unsolvable.
They're attempting more than to set up a Medicare equivalent, by the way-- since they already cover acute cases through the normal system, saying that they have no system like Medicare is not actually a true statement. What they lack is a system to deal with day-to-day care; they have a system for acute care.
They are trying to use their unique mix of private/public to solve the problem-- an example that I still think we could follow. They do this by attempting to subsidize private and charitable organizations long-term health care provisions for the elderly.
[Link: www.sma.org.sg...]
I am still failing to see how what you have said is in any way an argument against the Singapore model's efficacy in the US. Obviously one couldn't excise it and slap it down whole, it'd have to be adjusted, but what's with the flat-out rejection?
| 553 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:45:24am |
| 554 |
Varek Raith Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:47:24am |
Cool.
On of my temp sensors in my pc is reading -63 degrees Celsius.
Awesome.
/Stupid sensor.
| 555 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:48:12am |
re: #554 Varek Raith
Cool.
On of my temp sensors in my pc is reading -63 degrees Celsius.
Awesome.
/Stupid sensor.
Space does that.
| 556 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:48:22am |
re: #553 Cannadian Club Akbar
Bush lied, squirrels died. It has a certain ring to it.
| 557 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:49:19am |
re: #556 iossarian
Bush lied, squirrels died. It has a certain ring to it.
Don't tell TIME magazine!!!
| 558 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:49:32am |
re: #553 Cannadian Club Akbar
re: #551 NJDhockeyfan
Halliburton made torpedoes made of acorns. And squirrels around the world died.
Those were the ones hidden in icebergs, aren't they? They were hidden on the ice shelf and using the Bush/Cheney Global Warming machine they were cut loose to float into the Titanic. It's become very clear now. Someone call Alex Jones!
| 559 |
Varek Raith Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:50:17am |
re: #554 Varek Raith
Cool.
On of my temp sensors in my pc is reading -63 degrees Celsius.
Awesome.
/Stupid sensor.
And anoter is reading 261 degrees Celsius.
The Arctic and Hell, all in one!
9_9
| 560 |
lawhawk Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:51:20am |
re: #552 Obdicut
Where do you get that I flat out reject it. I originally asked whether you could scale it up to the US. You've since responded that the Singaporeans do many of the things that the US already does, but admit that they're trying to work out how to cover the one segment of population that drives the costs.
And yes, I read that New Yorker article, but you still ignore the fact that the elderly are the ones driving the costs as the population segment that utilizes more of the care and more of the chronic long term care.
| 561 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:52:41am |
re: #339 Mr Pancakes
So is Gloria Allred.
/
Yes, but Gloria isn't trying to become Governor in the world's eigth largest economy.
| 562 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:53:28am |
re: #561 darthstar
Yes, but Gloria isn't trying to become Governor in the world's eigth largest economy.
Eigth, that's big right?
//
| 563 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:53:33am |
re: #561 darthstar
I hate you more today than I did yesterday. Great game you got to see.
| 564 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:53:34am |
National Security Adviser Jones to leave White House
President Obama's National Security Adviser Jim Jones will resign from the White House in two weeks, a senior administration official said.
Obama will announce that Jones, a retired Marine general, will be replaced by Deputy National Security Adviser Tom Donilon in a Rose Garden statement Friday afternoon.
Jones’s departure is just the latest personnel room for a West Wing increasingly turning over before the midterm election.
White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel departed on Friday to run for mayor of Chicago. Larry Sumers, Obama’s chief economic adviser, is leaving after the election and two other members of Obama’s team left the White House over the summer.
Another one is high-tailing it out of Washington before the midterm elections.
| 565 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:54:19am |
re: #560 lawhawk
And yes, I read that New Yorker article, but you still ignore the fact that the elderly are the ones driving the costs as the population segment that utilizes more of the care and more of the chronic long term care.
You're asserting a fact without proving it. Please try to prove it. If you did read the article, you'd see that two areas with similar demographics, including elderly population, had wide discrepancies in health care costs. So please actually make your argument that the elderly, and only the elderly, are driving health care costs, keeping in mind the example you've been given where that is clearly not the case.
So make an argument, rather than an assertion.
| 567 |
AK-47% Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:58:39am |
It would take some time to work its way through the system, but it seems that better preventative care for younger citizens would lead to less in the way of chronic conditions for the elderly.
But health care is being argued in terms of short-term bottom line thinking, and those whose short-term bottoms lines are to be most affected are the pharmaceutical and health insurance industries.
| 568 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:59:16am |
re: #563 Cannadian Club Akbar
I hate you more today than I did yesterday. Great game you got to see.
Best 100 bucks I've spent in a while...I didn't even leave in the sixth inning like I normally do. The pace with which Lincecum knocked down those last batters was pretty awesome to watch...no fuckin' around on the mound. Get the ball. Face home plate. Wait for the batter to get set. Throw.
| 569 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:02:49am |
re: #568 darthstar
I like home runs like everyone else. But great pitching is the fucking best. And dude was throwing it!! Maybe they'll give him a raise so he can get a haircut. Damn hippie!!
//Was awesome!!!
| 570 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:03:21am |
This is good news...
Scientists and Soldiers Solve a Bee Mystery
It has been one of the great murder mysteries of the garden: what is killing off the honeybees?
Since 2006, 20 to 40 percent of the bee colonies in the United States alone have suffered “colony collapse.” Suspected culprits ranged from pesticides to genetically modified food.
Now, a unique partnership — of military scientists and entomologists — appears to have achieved a major breakthrough: identifying a new suspect, or two.
A fungus tag-teaming with a virus have apparently interacted to cause the problem, according to a paper by Army scientists in Maryland and bee experts in Montana in the online science journal PLoS One.
Exactly how that combination kills bees remains uncertain, the scientists said — a subject for the next round of research. But there are solid clues: both the virus and the fungus proliferate in cool, damp weather, and both do their dirty work in the bee gut, suggesting that insect nutrition is somehow compromised.
I hope they can find a way to stop this virus. We need bees.
| 571 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:04:07am |
re: #568 darthstar
Why the hell would you leave in the sixth?
I haven't been to a game here in NY yet. I have seen an amazingly large number of Red Sox hats around, though.
| 572 |
kingkenrod Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:04:20am |
re: #552 Obdicut
I understand that just fine. That doesn't mean you're in any way right to claim it is THE driver of health care costs. Did you read the article I linked?
So how does that equate to 'not having any answers', exactly? That, to me, says that they're attempting to solve the problem, not that they've thrown up their hands and declared it to be unsolvable.
They're attempting more than to set up a Medicare equivalent, by the way-- since they already cover acute cases through the normal system, saying that they have no system like Medicare is not actually a true statement. What they lack is a system to deal with day-to-day care; they have a system for acute care.
They are trying to use their unique mix of private/public to solve the problem-- an example that I still think we could follow. They do this by attempting to subsidize private and charitable organizations long-term health care provisions for the elderly.
[Link: www.sma.org.sg...]
I am still failing to see how what you have said is in any way an argument against the Singapore model's efficacy in the US. Obviously one couldn't excise it and slap it down whole, it'd have to be adjusted, but what's with the flat-out rejection?
Interesting graph: Life expectancy Singapore vs. US:
[Link: www.google.com...]
I'd say advantage Singapore.
The Post article is very interesting - I'll point out two things. First, Singapore's population density works in their favor, I'm sure they save a ton of money by centralizing services. Second, moving to a system where 33% of costs are out of pocket would be impossible politically in the US (if the current oop costs are 10%).
Our new HCR moves away from the Singapore model in two ways - by trying to limit out of pocket costs, and by seeking to eliminate catastrophic-only plans.
| 573 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:06:35am |
re: #571 Obdicut
Why the hell would you leave in the sixth?
I haven't been to a game here in NY yet. I have seen an amazingly large number of Red Sox hats around, though.
I never left a game early no matter what the score was. Anything is possible before the game ends.
| 574 |
lawhawk Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:06:37am |
re: #565 Obdicut
I made the fact - not assertion - by citing the Federal study that showed that the elderly were taking up a disproportionate amount of the costs.
Cost differentials between localities isn't driving up costs, because that shows that some localities have figured out how to keep costs lower - but even then the elderly are still taking the disproportionate amount of those costs.
| 575 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:06:46am |
re: #571 Obdicut
Why the hell would you leave in the sixth?
I haven't been to a game here in NY yet. I have seen an amazingly large number of Red Sox hats around, though.
I didn't...I stayed through to the end. Regular season (when I get free tickets) I'll leave after six or seven... This was my first playoff game. I can see why people are willing to pay a lot for good seats. I was in the front of the top deck...actually not bad seats to watch a game. And the place was electric.
| 576 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:08:12am |
re: #572 kingkenrod
Seeking to eliminate private catastrophic-only plans is completely irrelevant, given that the Singapore catastrophic system is public. Given a public catastrophic system, Singapore changes the private market for health insurance totally, into something that's a lot more consumer oriented-- it's about providing continual health care, not the insurance industry attempting to kick critically ill people off the rolls and otherwise deny care.
I definitely agree population density is in their favor, and that the spread out and rural areas in the US will always incur higher costs. That doesn't mean the system won't work, just that it won't be as efficient in that particular regard as Singapore.
| 577 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:09:29am |
re: #574 lawhawk
I made the fact - not assertion - by citing the Federal study that showed that the elderly were taking up a disproportionate amount of the costs.
.
Do you seriously think that means they are THE driver of health care costs?
Why are you ignoring:
The rise in diabetes
The rise in obesity
The rise in allergies
As well as the cultural shifts cited in the Gawande article?
| 578 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:09:49am |
re: #575 darthstar
I've sat behind the visitors bullpen (I could have smacked one of them) and 2nd row on first base side. My favorite is in right field.
| 579 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:10:32am |
re: #575 darthstar
Ah, for me a baseball game is a very rare event, so I'd never leave in the sixth.
I love going to baseball games with my folks, because my mom always makes a ton of awesome food for us to smuggle in.
I miss the old bleachers at Fenway. I went there all the time as a kid.
| 580 |
lawhawk Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:11:53am |
OT:
What's the deal with Jerry Brown's conversation where his associate/adviser calling Whitman a whore for pandering to the law enforcement unions. Is that a game changer in CA?
I don't think it puts Brown in a good spot right now, but pandering is part and parcel of what politicians do to get elected.
| 581 |
AK-47% Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:12:03am |
re: #577 Obdicut
Do you seriously think that means they are THE driver of health care costs?
Why are you ignoring:
The rise in diabetes
The rise in obesity
The rise in allergiesAs well as the cultural shifts cited in the Gawande article?
And don't forget the rise in all those fashionable PC illnesses like autism
/
| 582 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:13:10am |
re: #581 ralphieboy
Heh. Joking aside, there is the fact that we've been able to diagnose a lot more than we have in the past, so with rising diagnostic ability comes rising costs, as we treat a larger percentage of the sick population than we've actually been able to in the past.
| 583 |
lawhawk Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:14:08am |
re: #579 Obdicut
Never been to Fenway, and would love to get there at some point (even as a Yankee fan). Been to both old and new Yankee stadium, and while the new one is gorgeous, I miss the old one - which I think had better sightlines for those directly away from the field level. Citifield is a huge upgrade over Shea though - and the food at Citi is much better than at Yankee Stadium, and I say that as a Yankee fan.
My plans for next year is to visit Philly or Pittsburgh to see their new ballparks... and to try and make my way to a few other parks... Camden Yards is a great place to take in a game, and it's dirt cheap with great food too.
| 584 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:15:36am |
re: #583 lawhawk
If I show up in Yankee stadium in Red Sox gear, it won't actually provoke a fight or totally assholic heckling, would it? I mean, if I don't sit in the rabid-fan part of the bleachers?
| 585 |
AK-47% Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:16:14am |
re: #582 Obdicut
Heh. Joking aside, there is the fact that we've been able to diagnose a lot more than we have in the past, so with rising diagnostic ability comes rising costs, as we treat a larger percentage of the sick population than we've actually been able to in the past.
And the Armed Forces are facing a similar problem: thanks to advances in battlefield medicine, more wounded soldiers are surviving, which often winds up costing Uncle Sam more than paying the life insurance for the ones who die.
| 586 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:17:49am |
re: #584 Obdicut
If I show up in Yankee stadium in Red Sox gear, it won't actually provoke a fight or totally assholic heckling, would it? I mean, if I don't sit in the rabid-fan part of the bleachers?
If you wanna fight, go to an Oakland Raiders game wearing the other teams jersey. And bring your insurance card!!
| 587 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:18:39am |
re: #585 ralphieboy
And leading to new organizations like American Veterans with Brain Injuries
I really hope, I really, really, really hope that we do better by our veterans now than we did in the aftermath of the Vietnam war. The percentage of homeless who are veterans is just shameful.
| 588 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:19:41am |
re: #586 Cannadian Club Akbar
If you wanna fight, go to an Oakland Raiders game wearing the other teams jersey. And bring your insurance card!!
...or go to Philly to watch the Eagles play Dallas with a Cowboy's jersey on.
| 589 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:19:51am |
| 590 |
lawhawk Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:20:36am |
re: #584 Obdicut
No... you might get a ribbing, but that's about it. In a game I saw there this year, I had a Detroit fan sitting behind me, and we got into a ribbing. He was calling out Jeter for being a ticky tack hitter, and then moments later Jeter hit a triple. It was nice to rib him back... he was a good sport about that too... had a good laugh...
Wearing an opposing jersey in a place like Philly isn't recommended. They're just awful fans there - and even when Philly comes to NY, they are just rude. At a Mets game where the Mets were honoring a whole bunch of old timers, including HOFers, the Phillies fans booed the likes of Tom Seaver. They even booed Nolan Ryan who made his first appearance in a Met uniform in decades. I just don't get the boos in those circumstances - they are all time greats - shows a lack of baseball smarts...
| 591 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:20:45am |
| 592 |
lawhawk Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:22:31am |
re: #585 ralphieboy
Speaking of the Armed Forces, this story raises a whole bunch of questions about providing adequate mental health care support for soldiers who need it and the commanding staff not taking the issue seriously enough.
| 593 |
kingkenrod Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:22:40am |
re: #576 Obdicut
Seeking to eliminate private catastrophic-only plans is completely irrelevant, given that the Singapore catastrophic system is public. Given a public catastrophic system, Singapore changes the private market for health insurance totally, into something that's a lot more consumer oriented-- it's about providing continual health care, not the insurance industry attempting to kick critically ill people off the rolls and otherwise deny care.
I definitely agree population density is in their favor, and that the spread out and rural areas in the US will always incur higher costs. That doesn't mean the system won't work, just that it won't be as efficient in that particular regard as Singapore.
It doesn't matter who pays for the catastrophic plan - public or private. The catastrophic plans increase out of pocket payments while providing the safety net.
A few years ago (2004) I was self-employed and had catastrophic only insurance - it was dirt cheap, $72/month, and I paid for everything under $5000, the plan for everything over $5000, annually.
Since those plans no longer qualify as basic coverage under HCR, they are going away. I think it's stupid, a step in the wrong direction.
| 594 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:22:41am |
re: #590 lawhawk
I like the Yankees-Sox rivalry. I think it's made for some great baseball. I don't understand the people who make it into a "Yankees suck/Sox suck" deal; if that were true, it'd wouldn't be important when one team won.
The only part that leaves a bad taste in my mouth is players going from one team to the other. That part is hard to reconcile with a noble rivalry.
I look forward to my first New York game.
| 595 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:23:45am |
re: #590 lawhawk
Philly stadium (pick one) selling point:
"Come in through our gates, leave from a cell under the stadium".
| 596 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:24:23am |
Continuing the NY theme, what do people think about this (NJ governor cutting funding for rail expansion into Manhattan)?
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
| 597 |
lawhawk Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:24:55am |
re: #594 Obdicut
Apparently the worst rivalry is Sox-Tampa Bay, where the players actually have grudges (and had a ton of brawls, beanballs, and craziness in the past decade). The Yankees-Sox rivalry is a fan-based one, but one that I think has mutated in to mutual respect since the Sox finally won the WS a twice in recent years.
| 598 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:24:59am |
re: #593 kingkenrod
It doesn't matter who pays for the catastrophic plan - public or private. The catastrophic plans increase out of pocket payments while providing the safety net.
It does matter, actually. If they are a private plan, they have the disincentive to actually pay out, they have all the problems of private health care. There is nowhere that private insurance makes less sense than with catastrophic care.
A few years ago (2004) I was self-employed and had catastrophic only insurance - it was dirt cheap, $72/month, and I paid for everything under $5000, the plan for everything over $5000, annually.
I have a similar plan. It costs me $372 a month now.
Since those plans no longer qualify as basic coverage under HCR, they are going away. I think it's stupid, a step in the wrong direction.
I'm unfamiliar with what you're actually talking about-- could you point me to a policy change that would explain?
| 599 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:27:40am |
re: #597 lawhawk
M favorite fight was when Robin Ventura got hit by Nolan Ryan and charged the mound. Nolan put him in a headlock and started punching. Heh.
| 600 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:29:57am |
re: #595 Cannadian Club Akbar
Philly stadium (pick one) selling point:
"Come in through our gates, leave from a cell under the stadium".
Philadelphia fan base is a bit of an odd duck (outsider POV). I've been to baseball, football, and ice hockey games here in the last three years. A lot of the fans are vocal and loud, but there is this sprinkling of semi-psychotic nuts mixed in that are what really generate the bad reputation. And there are teams they simply *hate* and things do get a bit peevish when they're involved.
So a lot will depend on which type you end up sitting near, or interacting with on the way in/out of the stadium.
And I've seen obnoxious fight-starting drunk types at every sporting event I've attended in any city. Seems to be a sub-section of the human condition.
| 601 |
lawhawk Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:30:18am |
re: #596 iossarian
I covered that here. NJ simply can't afford to cover the cost overruns, which might be equal to or exceed the NJ share for the project. And that would include even if NJ raised its gas tax (one of the few benefits of living in NJ is that the gas is cheaper here than in PA or NY). Christie is meeting with LaHood, and I think the result may be that the feds pick up a much greater share of cost overruns or that the project gets combined with an Amtrak proposal to build its own additional tracks into Penn Station.
I find fault with NJ Transit building 2-track tunnel to a separate terminus in NY at Herald Square, which doesn't provide the kind of redundancy that you would expect with additional tracks. A delay into Penn would still occur with a single disabled train. The same would occur into the new NJ terminus. If the new tunnels went to Penn station, the disabled train would not affect service and would allow Amtrak and NJ Transit to offer much more effective and safe service. That's how the project was originally pitched until NJ Transit changed their mind over where the tracks would terminate in NY. NJ Transit claimed that the tunnel to Penn Station would undermine the existing tracks and cost more, but that ignores the additional costs of building a whole new station in Herald Square and that they would get an economy of scale by building to Penn Station- rather than duplicating services elsewhere.
| 602 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:30:41am |
re: #599 Cannadian Club Akbar
M favorite fight was when Robin Ventura got hit by Nolan Ryan and charged the mound. Nolan put him in a headlock and started punching. Heh.
Mucking with Nolan Ryan is simply a bad decision.
| 603 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:30:42am |
re: #596 iossarian
Continuing the NY theme, what do people think about this (NJ governor cutting funding for rail expansion into Manhattan)?
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
Apparently they ain't got the money. Smart move IMO.
| 604 |
lawhawk Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:31:39am |
re: #599 Cannadian Club Akbar
Heh... there's a great book I'm reading about baseball. Baseball Codes. It goes into detail about the Code and infamous and famous incidents across baseball history, including the famous noogie fight.
| 605 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:32:51am |
re: #604 lawhawk
Heh... there's a great book I'm reading about baseball. Baseball Codes. It goes into detail about the Code and infamous and famous incidents across baseball history, including the famous noogie fight.
Cool, thanks. Now I know what I want for Christmas!!
| 606 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:34:00am |
re: #595 Cannadian Club Akbar
Philly stadium (pick one) selling point:
"Come in through our gates, leave from a cell under the stadium".
I went to Veterans Stadium in 1980 to see the Cowboys play the Eagles. We sat in the restaurant and ate while watching the game. It was awesome. I took the elevator down at halftime to buy some stuff. An older guy looked down at me in my Dallas Jersey and said "Hey kid, you got guts." Nothing bad happened except for the the Cowboys losing.
| 607 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:35:11am |
| 608 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:35:24am |
re: #606 NJDhockeyfan
Remember when Eagle fan hit Cowboy coach with a frozen snowball?
| 609 |
celticdragon Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:36:22am |
re: #125 NJDhockeyfan
The climate has been changing for millions of years and they just decided a few years ago that global warming is the fault of humans? That's why I don't believe it yet.
That patch of ground near Alamagordo New Mexico has been changing according to geologic forces for millions of years before getting a strange green glassy, amorphous solid crust. It had nothing at all to do with that nuclear explosion in 1945. It was nature.
Right.
//
| 610 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:36:41am |
re: #606 NJDhockeyfan
I went to Veterans Stadium in 1980 to see the Cowboys play the Eagles. We sat in the restaurant and ate while watching the game. It was awesome. I took the elevator down at halftime to buy some stuff. An older guy looked down at me in my Dallas Jersey and said "Hey kid, you got guts." Nothing bad happened except for the the Cowboys losing.
You forgot to mention that you're 6'9'' and have hands like bunches of bananas.
/
| 611 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:36:52am |
re: #604 lawhawk
Heh... there's a great book I'm reading about baseball. Baseball Codes. It goes into detail about the Code and infamous and famous incidents across baseball history, including the famous noogie fight.
ESPN's 30 in 30 had "Four Days in October" on the other day about the Red Sox coming back down 3-0 against the Yankees to win the AL pennant.
One famous clip from that is the play where Alex Rodriguez chops the ball out of Bronson Arroyo's glove on a close play at first. Took an umpire conference to get him called out, and when that happens he's standing on second and doing the "what did I do?" play act and then eventually arguing that it was part of his normal running motion (to no avail.)
I understand the competitiveness of the players and such, but I was simply disappointed at the lack of sportsmanship.
| 612 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:37:22am |
re: #604 lawhawk
Heh... there's a great book I'm reading about baseball. Baseball Codes. It goes into detail about the Code and infamous and famous incidents across baseball history, including the famous noogie fight.
I was at Shea Stadium in 1986 the night they beat Philly to win the pennant. It was crazy. The field was covered in fans right after the 3rd out and the place got ripped up. I think one of the players got his glove stolen. Some guy in the parking lot had a roll of center field grass hanging over his shoulder and gave a piece of it to my girlfriend.
| 613 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:37:53am |
re: #608 Cannadian Club Akbar
Remember when Eagle fan hit Cowboy coach with a frozen snowball?
Is there another kind?
//
| 614 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:39:13am |
re: #606 NJDhockeyfan
Overheard at an Eagles game...
"Hey! You suck! Your momma sucks! You sister sucks! Your daddy'd suck too, but I wouldn't let him!"
"C'mon! Let the little girl finish the anthem!"
| 615 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:39:22am |
re: #613 rwdflynavy
Is there another kind?
//
IIRC, they took the snowball and poured water on it to harden it. Brutal. BTW, no one has ever been hurt by a sand ball in Florida.
//
| 616 |
bratwurst Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:39:30am |
| 617 |
apox Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:39:33am |
It blows me away how the religious right and creationists are unwilling to accept the theories of AGW and evolution that have demonstrable evidence behind them, but are unwilling to accept them because rising water levels are not flooding their homes or monkeys are not morphing into people infront of their faces.... But can have pure blind faith in the world being made in 7 days or the acceptance of an invisible god that works in "mysterious ways." The irony...
| 618 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:39:48am |
re: #610 iossarian
You forgot to mention that you're 6'9'' and have hands like bunches of bananas.
/
I wish...I was 17 and with my brother & step father. I wasn't aware of how violent Philly fans were however I lucked out and never experienced it.
| 619 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:40:17am |
Advantage to being a vegetarian? Just made a batch of chili.
In 15 MINUTES!
AND IT'S GOOD!
| 621 |
celticdragon Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:41:10am |
re: #619 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Advantage to being a vegetarian? Just made a batch of chili.
In 15 MINUTES!
AND IT'S GOOD!
Vegetarian chili?
*shudder*
You can have my share, by all means.
| 622 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:41:15am |
re: #619 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Advantage to being a vegetarian? Just made a batch of chili.
In 15 MINUTES!
AND IT'S GOOD!
BFD. I made potato soup and corn bread last night.
/actually I did. Took about 30 minutes.
| 624 |
celticdragon Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:42:33am |
re: #622 Cannadian Club Akbar
BFD. I made potato soup and corn bread last night.
/actually I did. Took about 30 minutes.
That's more like it.
Hot creamy potato soup on a cold autumn day is teh awesome.
| 625 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:42:34am |
re: #621 celticdragon
Vegetarian chili?
*shudder*
You can have my share, by all means.
Right up there with Tofu dogs!!
| 626 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:42:52am |
Was philly where the battery pelting happened?
I still laugh at the idea of bat night in philly.
| 627 |
celticdragon Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:43:43am |
re: #623 lawhawk
Bank of America announced a hold on foreclosure sales nationwide pending a review of paperwork.
Maybe they got the clue that sending agents in to change locks in houses that were occupied was going to end up with a body count.
| 628 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:44:00am |
re: #626 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Was philly where the battery pelting happened?
I still laugh at the idea of bat night in philly.
San Fran Giants fans have been known to throw batteries at Dodgers players.
| 629 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:44:37am |
| 631 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:50:07am |
I'm not a Red Sox fan but I really felt bad for this guy...
Here's a movie idea: diehard Red Sox fan falls into a coma before the 2004 playoffs, spends the next four weeks fighting for his life, then regains his senses after the World Series. He survives ... only he feels ripped off, because as millions of Sox fans say, "I saw them win in my lifetime," this poor guy is the one who didn't see anything.
Never mind. It's too improbable, right?
Meet Steven Manganello, known from this day forward in Red Sox history as The Coma Guy. Growing up in Maine, his family followed the Sox because his grandfather did, one more diehard who ended up with these dates on his tombstone: 1917-2003. Ouch.
Last September, Steven scheduled a Japan vacation that would get him home two days before the playoffs began. On Oct. 1, the final night of his trip, he crossed a street in Tokyo and ... well, this is where it gets hazy. That tends to happen when you're pancaked by a taxi travelling at an estimated 50 mph. Steven spent the next four weeks in a Tokyo hospital, battling a potentially fatal brain hemorrhage, not to mention paralysis, a punctured lung and other critical injuries. The collision was so violent, he didn't just have five broken ribs, one of them had actually flipped around inside his body. Steven's head was so swollen that when his brother, Anthony, showed up the next day, he swears it was "three times its normal size."
In the movies, people spring out of a coma like Adrian in Rocky II, as if nothing happened. In real life, there's a tube jammed down your throat and enough drugs pump through your veins to bring Keith Richards to his knees. For 17 days Steven was a blank slate. Sometimes he woke for a few minutes, but his short-term memory was demolished. That didn't stop Anthony from constantly feeding him playoff updates, hoping the positive news would stimulate something in his brother. When the Sox dropped those first three to the Yanks, Anthony even lied, pretending they were winning. Anything to keep his brother going. When Steven heard the "good" news, he'd squeeze his brother's hand -- it was all he could do. A few minutes later, as Anthony puts it, "He'd be on vacation again."
When the Yankees orchestrated the Greatest Choke in Sports History, a semiconscious Steven was still disoriented (channeling Grady Little of the previous October). When the Sox won it all and his friends and family called to share the moment, he understood ... for about five minutes. Then he forgot what happened. It was like SNL's old Mr. Short-Term Memory sketch. As Steven says, "I could remember my childhood phone number, but I couldn't remember somebody's name." It wasn't until he flew home to California in November that his brain started to work again. By Thanksgiving, Steven was well enough to fully grasp two things: "Holy crap, I almost died!" and "Holy crap, the Red Sox won the World Series!"
Problem is, now he feels left out. He only vaguely remembers a buddy calling after the ALCS, a Yankee fan saying he was half-rooting for Boston for Steven's sake. That made him feel good. He remembers watching highlights of two Johnny Damon homers on Japanese television, a happy, if hazy, memory. He knows he absorbed his brother's updates and believes they helped him ... but he remembers nothing of them. And he is proud the Sox won. Still, Steven says, "I get hit by a car and boom, they win the Series. If you loved the Red Sox and waited your whole life for this, how would you feel?" In case you don't know, he'll tell you. "It's brutal."
| 632 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:51:16am |
My brother the douche, owes me $90. Since he doesn't think he does, I have to have a garage sale tomorrow. Gonna go get stuff together. BBL.:)
| 633 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:53:30am |
re: #628 Cannadian Club Akbar
Somewhere out there, there is a great photo of the Leeds players coming onto the pitch to play Galatasaray in the 2001 Champions League semi-final. The Turkish police are holding up riot shields to protect the players from the various objects that are being flung at them by the frankly bonkers crowd.
It's the only time I've seen players look genuinely afraid of what's going to happen in the next 90 minutes. The only other time I've seen that look in sports is on the face of lower-level boxers when Tyson got into the ring with them.
Google is so far failing to turn up the photo, annoyingly.
| 634 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:53:53am |
re: #632 Cannadian Club Akbar
My brother the douche, owes me $90. Since he doesn't think he does, I have to have a garage sale tomorrow. Gonna go get stuff together. BBL.:)
Go sell some of your brother's stuff while you're at it...like about $90 worth.
| 635 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:56:45am |
Sounds like we squished a big one in Pakistan...
Pakistani Mohammad Usman was little-known other than for being wanted for the killing of a police officer in 1997 and his connections with prayer leaders at the Taliban-friendly Lal Masjid (Red Mosque) in Islamabad in the early 2000s.
His death this week in a United States drone strike in the North Waziristan tribal area along with several other militants therefore made few headlines.
In the al-Qaeda camp, however, Usman has been described as "irreplaceable", his death on a scale of the killings of Mustafa Abu al-Yazid and Shiekh Fateh al-Misri. Misri in May replaced Yazid, who was also killed in a drone attack in the North Waziristan tribal area, as al-Qaeda's chief commander in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Misri perished in a drone strike this month.
| 636 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:57:35am |
re: #633 iossarian
Ack. 2000 UEFA cup, not 2001 Champions League.
| 637 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:57:46am |
re: #628 Cannadian Club Akbar
San Fran Giants fans have been known to throw batteries at Dodgers players.
Battery Chucks!
| 639 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:02:32am |
re: #626 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Was philly where the battery pelting happened?
I still laugh at the idea of bat night in philly.
Pittsburgh in the 70s/early 80s IIRC. Someone in the stands threw one at Dave Parker.
| 640 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:04:04am |
Battery Chuck: Northern Californian; see also 'No-Cal', 'Water Hoarder' [from the perceived tendency of Bay Area fans to throw batteries at opposing players, particularly at those from Southern California]
[Link: jimrome.stucknut.com...]
| 641 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:08:24am |
| 642 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:25:10am |
| 643 |
_remembertonyc Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:28:41am |
This is just a drive by, but did anyone see the story about FOX 5 in NY reporter Charles Leaf? He has aggressively reported on the mosque/community center project. Well, it turns out he is quite the predator. He is charged with some nasty acts which I will not link to. But if you google his name, you'll find it.
| 644 |
lawhawk Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:33:29am |
re: #643 _remembertonyc
He's being held on $250,000 bond for sexually assaulting a minor (who happens to a 4-year old relation). If true, he deserves whatever NJ can dish out in punishment.
Leaf, the married father of two children and an ex-Marine, joined the station in 2006 and is the station’s investigative and general-assignment reporter who has covered national stories, including the Bernard Madoff scandal and the proposed development of a mosque near the World Trade Center site, according to his résumé on myfoxny.com.A spokesperson for the station said Fox 5 was aware of the situation and was reviewing it.
Leaf is a graduate of Syracuse’s University’s Newhouse School of Public Communications with a B.S. in broadcast journalism, the Fox website said. He served in the Marines for five years and rose to the rank of sergeant.
Leaf was also an Embassy Marine, serving on an elite diplomatic program with the State Department at U.S. embassies overseas, with embassy postings that included Warsaw and Canberra.
| 645 |
Slap Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:36:29am |
re: #590 lawhawk
Never been to Camden (moved away 4 months before it opened....), but having been fortunate enough to go to Fenway twice ('86 and '87), I have to say that for ANY baseball fan, it's a necessity if you can find a way to get there.
I swear, the first time I emerged from the corridor into the left-field seats, I felt overwhelmed by the FEEL of the place. Pure magic.
I'll also add that I noticed tons of real baseball fans -- people who loved the game as much as they loved the Sox, knowledgeable and respectful of good ballplayers regardless of team. It was like going to baseball church, truly remarkable.
The bleachers are a bit of a different matter. Second time was a night game, had right-field seats. Of course, a beachball was batted around, causing grousing from the baseball-literate longshoremen sitting in front of me. (They were a total hoot, and LOVED the game.) Mid-game, I hear a wave of laughter from the bleacher area, and looked over to find that the beachball had been replaced by an inflatable love doll.....
Fun night. Joe Niekro got thoroughly shelled by the sox, and I think it was his very last appearance.
If you're a baseball fan, go there if you can. It'll stay with you the rest of your life, I promise.....
| 646 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:42:59am |
re: #645 Slap
Never been to Camden (moved away 4 months before it opened...), but having been fortunate enough to go to Fenway twice ('86 and '87), I have to say that for ANY baseball fan, it's a necessity if you can find a way to get there.
I swear, the first time I emerged from the corridor into the left-field seats, I felt overwhelmed by the FEEL of the place. Pure magic.
I'll also add that I noticed tons of real baseball fans -- people who loved the game as much as they loved the Sox, knowledgeable and respectful of good ballplayers regardless of team. It was like going to baseball church, truly remarkable.
The bleachers are a bit of a different matter. Second time was a night game, had right-field seats. Of course, a beachball was batted around, causing grousing from the baseball-literate longshoremen sitting in front of me. (They were a total hoot, and LOVED the game.) Mid-game, I hear a wave of laughter from the bleacher area, and looked over to find that the beachball had been replaced by an inflatable love doll...
Fun night. Joe Niekro got thoroughly shelled by the sox, and I think it was his very last appearance.
If you're a baseball fan, go there if you can. It'll stay with you the rest of your life, I promise...
Something that folk should try to do is see a game or two in small venues as well. I saw a minor league game on Staten Island a few years ago (seats right on the 1st base line). And wayyyyy back I got to see a Montreal Expo game in Jerry Park (sp?) which was probably the first game I went to at an age where I could appreciate baseball to some degree.
| 647 |
lawhawk Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:44:09am |
re: #645 Slap
I have similar feelings about the first time at the old (remodeled) Yankee stadium. I'd never seen grass so green or immaculately done. That was early 1980s. You can almost get a similar feeling with the Grand hall they built with the new stadium, but something is missing - maybe it's just the patina of use and wear and tear of a stadium that has seen pretty much everything...
Fenway and Wrigley are on my bucket list for sure..
| 648 |
Ericus58 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:44:34am |
Israel Selects Lockheed Martin F-35 for Its Next-Generation Fighter
Defense Talk 10/08/2010
FORT WORTH, Texas: Following the Israeli Government decision to select the Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] F-35 Lightning II as the Israel Air Force’s next-generation fighter aircraft, Israeli Ministry of Defense Director General (Maj. Gen. Ret.) Udi Shani signed the Letter of Offer and Acceptance for the procurement of the F-35 aircraft earlier today in New York. Israel will be the first country to receive the F-35 through the United States government’s Foreign Military Sales process.
| 649 |
lawhawk Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:45:43am |
re: #646 oaktree
Richmond County ballpark has one of the most spectacular backdrops in the country - Lower Manhattan and NY bay. Great place to catch a game. The ballpark where the Salt Lake Bees play is also pretty damned great - Wasatch mountains rise up and get a wonderful glow (the Bees are the San Diego farm club). I've seen the Newark Bears play too - and that's quite a value too...
| 650 |
Slap Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:47:01am |
re: #647 lawhawk
Wrigley's definitely top of my stadium bucket list.
And if you really want to be overwhelmed, make sure you read several WP Kinsella books beforehand.....baseball mysticism at its finest.
| 651 |
Ericus58 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:47:07am |
BOEING VIDEO: 787 Dreamliner ZA006 First Flight
[Link: blog.seattlepi.com...]
"What's better than a Boeing 787 Dreamliner first flight video? One with commentary from Boeing employees, including the lead pilot Christine Walsh. The sixth 787 Dreamliner took to the skies on October 4th and had a successful (yet shortened) first flight."
| 652 |
Lidane Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:51:25am |
re: #427 Lidane
Going back to this for a moment. I have sources now. Woo! Even talked to my professor this morning about the paper, and since he's going to be at the Austin City Limits festival this weekend, the original deadline of tonight at midnight is extended until Monday morning. I can now breathe a bit easier and will easily finish this paper now.
I'm still not writing another group paper ever again. I'll write a part of it, but someone else can do the final edits next time. =P
| 653 |
Tigger2005 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 10:58:58am |
re: #175 NJDhockeyfan
I don't feel like I lost anything. I haven't even posted any anti-AGW links. All I did is give my opinion and all hell broke lose.
What do you want, NJD? To state your opinion and have it ignored or praised or something? Do you want people to say, "You have an opinion! Good for you! You get a gold star!" Do you expect everyone to say, "I most respectfully disagree with your opinion, good sir, but I shall not question it and I shall fight to the death for your right to have it"? What?
You think you should be able to spout ignorant opinions and not get called on them, not have them questioned, not be asked to defend them with facts. You've been on LGF a while haven't you NJD? Don't you by know by now that that's not how we roll?
| 654 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:17:44am |
I'm completely boggled by the fact that no one here seems to think that this interview was a bit absurd. Did Rachel Maddow just ask Art Robinson to explain hormo-whateveritwas in a segment less than 20 minutes? Most people cant get basic physics in a whole semester. Was she kidding? and in defense of a scientific conclusion no less...especially considering the the low probability that many of those watching her show if any have the scientific background necessary to understand the issue. That's barely enough time to put forth a good hypothesis. There was no way he could do that and given that Rachel is a Harvard grad, I'm going to give her credit and assume that she knew very well what she was doing and wasn't being a mindless idiot (though maybe that's saying the same thing.) Science is complicated and often counterintuitive. You don't prove the validity of an idea on a political news entertainment show and that's what she was asking him to do. Surely the author of this blog would agree with this...
But it does speak to the underlying problem here in the States with our current media. It's never a discussion of ideas; never exploration of truth. It's all just my side against your side. Did Maddow ask her viewers to explore his ideas. Lets face it, Maddow wasn't going to allow him to put forth a reasonable explanation even if he could. We all knew there was a lag. So did Maddow. She's done satellite interviews in the past. There is no doubt that she interrupted him every time he attempted to explain it. This is just the given. It's what you see with your eyes and hear with your ears. What conclusion you come to about why she did it, I realize, is purely subjective. To me, you have to be weary of anyone that stifles real discussion. That interview went terribly for Maddow. It certainly made me think less of her. I'd never heard of Arthur Robinson, but he certainly didn't seem like an idiot. Though I do have to question how smart it was for him to go on her show. News entertainment shows aren't amenable to serious discussions. They think their viewers are more entertained by shouting matches and snide remarks. I suppose sometimes they are right about that.
| 655 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:21:52am |
re: #654 reason0911
Art Robinson is a first class kook. See:
The GOP's Newest Star: Far Crazier Than Rand Paul
GOP Candidate Arthur Robinson: Dump Oil and Nuclear Waste at Sea
Arthur Robinson sells racist book suggesting Africans are like "retarded children"
| 656 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:23:50am |
re: #653 Tigger2005
haha. this is funny. he's calling NJD's opinions ignorant. I wonder how informed his opinions are. Listen, you are choosing to believe what one group of people says. That's all your doing. I'm almost certain you haven't done the research necessary to come to an informed conclusion. You're probably not a scientist. Yet you'd call out someone else for not believing in the same thing as you. I imagine scientists have better things to do than call people names on little websites. One should always remain a skeptic of all second hand information.
| 657 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:27:44am |
re: #655 Charles
"Baloney" is hardly an acceptable counter argument to his claims. I haven't heard your scientific arguments against his theories. Please present them. I like to come to informed conclusions, so make sure you study up and be as comprehensive as possible.
| 658 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:29:46am |
re: #657 reason0911
"Baloney" is hardly an acceptable counter argument to his claims. I haven't heard your scientific arguments against his theories. Please present them. I like to come to informed conclusions, so make sure you study up and be as comprehensive as possible.
| 659 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:31:43am |
re: #658 Charles
Sorry. I don't click on links. You can express your ideas here on this page though.
| 660 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:32:44am |
re: #656 reason0911
One should always remain a skeptic of all second hand information.
So you 'remain skeptical' of every scientific fact you haven't personally done empirical verification of?
| 661 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:34:40am |
re: #660 Obdicut
I remain open to new ideas and information. It's the key to progress.
| 663 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:37:50am |
re: #659 reason0911
Sorry. I don't click on links.
Really? How in the world do you use the Internet then?
| 664 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:37:57am |
re: #661 reason0911
I remain open to new ideas and information. It's the key to progress.
Hey, so am I...but Art Robinson was merely spouting conspiracy theory. As far as the physics go, he says we can spray radioactive waste around the planet and dispose of it safely that way, since small levels of radiation are not harmful. As someone who was treated with radiation, once, I can assure you that even in tiny, tiny doses that shit is poison.
| 665 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:39:02am |
re: #661 reason0911
I remain open to new ideas and information. It's the key to progress.
Could you answer my straightforward question, please?
Do you accept any scientific facts that you haven't personally empirically verified?
Or are you skeptical of every bit of science you haven't proved to yourself in empirical tests?
| 666 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:39:56am |
re: #661 reason0911
I remain open to new ideas and information.
As long as it can be done without clicking any of those link things.
| 667 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:42:52am |
and in any case, scientific "facts" are always changing and with the rapid technological changes taking place, I imagine we'll be able to better test the validity of our past conclusions and our future hypothesis. As the doctor stated, 15 years ago the debate was different. Factors were unknown about HIV and Aids. Today there are factors that are unknown. There is much debate about testing for HIV. The standards change from country to country. The markers accepted for the diagnosis of HIV are different from one country to the next. You could be classified as having in one country and not having it in another. Certainly that leaves a bit of uncertainty, and leaves the discussion open to different theories. Wouldn't you agree?
| 669 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:44:07am |
re: #664 darthstar
I need more than your assurances and anecdotal evidence. I need the scientific data which I'm sure you have since you've reached this conclusion already.
| 670 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:46:14am |
re: #665 Obdicut
That was a straightforward answer. There are things that I accept because generally speaking more informed people than I have come to those conclusions and have seemingly done the leg work. However since I don't have first hand knowledge, it would be foolhardy of me to scorn those who present new theories without fully exploring them.
| 671 |
Kragar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:47:03am |
re: #669 reason0911
I need more than your assurances and anecdotal evidence. I need the scientific data which I'm sure you have since you've reached this conclusion already.
Of course, you won't click on any link that would provide you with said evidence.
| 672 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:48:21am |
re: #671 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
simple solution; type in the web address dear friend.
| 673 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:49:36am |
re: #663 Charles
you're right. I misspoke. I rarely click on links of unknown origin. I try to avoid viruses.
| 674 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:49:56am |
re: #669 reason0911
I need more than your assurances and anecdotal evidence. I need the scientific data which I'm sure you have since you've reached this conclusion already.
It's out there for you to read. Sadly, however, it requires you to move your mouse over some colored text until the little finger icon appears, and then, with a steady hand and a strong heart, actually click on said text. In the reasonable world (where people don't name themselves after terror-attacks), these things are called links, and people click them to learn more information...or to be entertained, either by porn or people like yourself.
| 675 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:51:20am |
lre: #674 darthstar
lol. that's my daughters birthday. Other things happened that day.
| 677 |
Kragar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:51:58am |
re: #672 reason0911
simple solution; type in the web address dear friend.
Ah yes, I'll spend my time typing out web addresses because you're too lazy and paranoid. Splendid idea, I'll jump right on that.
| 678 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:51:58am |
re: #673 reason0911
you're right. I misspoke. I rarely click on links of unknown origin. I try to avoid viruses.
Do you wear a condom while you surf the web? Seriously, anyone with a fifth grade education these days knows that if you mouse over a link you can read the URL, or right click and select "Properties" to see where it goes. I'm afraid of viruses! Get the fuck off of Internet Explorer then, and you'll be fine.
| 679 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:52:27am |
re: #670 reason0911
Actually, the cool thing about science is that when theories are established, it provides an easy way to test new theories. New theories can be easily first tested against things that are known to be true, and, if they mesh with that, then they can be tested to see if the new theories provide better predictive or explanatory results than current theories. If they do, then they're accepted as the better theory; if they're somewhere in the ballpark, they're accepted as one of the competing theories on the subject.
You don't start from zero on every new theory, at all. Your view has nothing to do with the Western tradition of science.
| 680 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:53:12am |
re: #676 Charles
troll? I'm not sure what you mean by that. I am an individual who disagrees with many of the comments posted here in relation to this blog post. I decided to voice that disagreement, in what I hope was a reasonable way. Name calling isn't necessary.
| 681 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:54:21am |
re: #678 darthstar
You must be the brains of this operation. :D
No need to be so hostile. I haven't insulted you...yet.
| 682 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:56:18am |
re: #679 Obdicut
I agree and that isn't what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that whenever new information is available, it must be considered. I'm saying that all arguments and the evidence must be considered. If one hasn't seriously considered all the arguments, one shouldn't berate those that come to different conclusions>
| 683 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:57:58am |
re: #681 reason0911
You must be the brains of this operation. :D
No need to be so hostile. I haven't insulted you...yet.
You couldn't insult me if you wanted to. And I wasn't being hostile, I was simply mocking you. You claimed you're afraid of viruses. This isn't 1998 anymore. Viruses aren't as easy to get...even on Windows. What, pray tell, do you do when you're not trying to rationalize the arguments of people like Robinson? (Please tell me you're not in IT)
| 684 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:58:29am |
re: #677 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
No. You don't have to. You are the one making a big deal of it. It's a very small thing to me.
You did take the time, however, to type this message. I'd think you'd be more willing to take the time to support your conclusions. I guess I'll just be left in the dark on this one.
| 685 |
Kragar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:58:38am |
re: #682 reason0911
I agree and that isn't what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that whenever new information is available, it must be considered. I'm saying that all arguments and the evidence must be considered. If one hasn't seriously considered all the arguments, one shouldn't berate those that come to different conclusions>
Not all arguments can be considered valid and some can be dismissed without serious consideration.
| 686 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:59:28am |
re: #683 darthstar
lol. no I'm not. that would be terrible for my client wouldn't it, though I like to think I'm smart enough to learn anything that interests me.
| 687 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:00:41pm |
re: #673 reason0911
you're right. I misspoke. I rarely click on links of unknown origin. I try to avoid viruses.
I don't believe viruses exist. Have you actually investigated for yourself the process by which viruses are created? If not, how can you claim to know that they exist, and why are you afraid of them? If you have done this important research, please explain to us how these viruses are supposed to work, in detail, with footnotes, or I'll be forced to conclude that your claims of having a truly open mind are overblown and vapid.
| 688 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:00:56pm |
re: #685 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
You're right, but when a scientist offers a hypothesis, I'm more inclined to consider it than the word of Rachel Maddow. On what grounds are you dismissing his arguments?
| 689 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:01:00pm |
re: #685 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Not all arguments can be considered valid and some can be dismissed without serious consideration.
Well, except the argument that fossils were planted by Satan to fuck with our heads and make us doubt Jesus was a dino-jockey...everyone knows dinosaur bones age exponentially faster as time goes on, so 5,000 years looks like 5,000,000.
| 690 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:03:08pm |
re: #688 reason0911
You're right, but when a scientist offers a hypothesis, I'm more inclined to consider it than the word of Rachel Maddow. On what grounds are you dismissing his arguments?
Yes, but that fucking retard isn't even a scientist...he's a charlatan. (link is safe...it goes to [Link: www.m-w.com...] -- Merriam Webster's online dictionary, which is an electronic version of a book which contains words and their definitions, pronunciations, and often their origin).
| 691 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:03:29pm |
re: #687 Charles
this is a non-sequitur. I have experienced the effects of viruses and until someone comes up with some other hypothesis about why my pc is on the fritz, I'll have to assume they do exist. But if someone comes up with an alternate explanation to my computer problems, I'm certainly open to listening. This seems second nature...I'm really surprised by your response.
| 692 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:04:57pm |
re: #691 reason0911
this is a non-sequitur. I have experienced the effects of viruses and until someone comes up with some other hypothesis about why my pc is on the fritz, I'll have to assume they do exist. But if someone comes up with an alternate explanation to my computer problems, I'm certainly open to listening. This seems second nature...I'm really surprised by your response.
Could just be malware...you could have a bunch of invalid registry keys, so your system is constantly trying to resolve pointers to data which no longer exists on your hard drive...or maybe it's time to trade in that 286 for a newer machine.
| 693 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:05:55pm |
re: #690 darthstar
Hmm. I guess that depends on your definition of a scientists.
| 694 |
Kragar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:06:25pm |
re: #688 reason0911
You're right, but when a scientist offers a hypothesis, I'm more inclined to consider it than the word of Rachel Maddow. On what grounds are you dismissing his arguments?
His history of crack pot theories, his associations with hard core science deniers, and his backing of quack medical science.
| 695 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:07:03pm |
re: #691 reason0911
Here's an alternate theory: Rather than viruses, hackers are actively hacking into your computer and using remote access to do things on them. Rather than a program, it's actual user agents doing it.
| 696 |
Gus Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:07:07pm |
re: #667 reason0911
Bologna. And Arthur Robinson offers a poor excuse in that it was "15 years ago." By 1995 a great deal was known about AIDs and HIV. HIV was discovered in 1984. The time line for 1995 alone includes:
* On February 8, FDA approved Mepron (atovaquone) for the treatment of mild to moderate Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia (PCP) in patients who are intolerant to trimethoprim-sulfamethoxazole (TMP-SMX).
* On February 23, FDA revised the guidance for Home Specimen Collection Kit Systems Intended for Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV-1 and/or HIV-2) Antibody Testing.
* On March 24, FDA cleared for marketing the first blood test to measure latex antibodies in the blood. The test can be used to help identify people who are allergic to latex and as such assist people in the use of barrier products to prevent HIV transmission.
* On April 14, FDA approved Chartex International plc. London, U.K. premarket approval application for the Femidom Female Condom. The product is an intravaginal barrier device and is indicated for use to help prevent pregnancy, which will be used as an indicator of the device's performance in preventing STDs.
* In June 1995, FDA published "An FDA Guide To Choosing Medical Treatments," FDA Consumer.
* In June 1995, FDA allowed the initiation of an open label study for saquinavir for the treatment of HIV infection and AIDS. Saquinavir, manufactured by Hoffmann-La Roche, is the first protease inhibitor made available outside of ongoing clinical trials.
* On June 6, FDA revised the blood donor criteria to exclude prisoners from donating blood, blood components and plasma for 12 months from the last date of incarceration.
* On June 11, FDA issued a Dear Healthcare Professional letter describing post marketing reports of new onset diabetes mellitus, hyperglycemia or exacerbation of existing diabetes mellitus occurring in HIV-infected patients receiving protease inhibitor therapy, summarizing the reports, and encouraging health care providers to report such cases, or other serious toxicity associated with the use of protease inhibitors, to the FDA's MedWatch program.
* On June 16, FDA approved Foscavir (foscarnet) for the treatment of acyclovir-resistant herpes simplex virus.
* August 1995, FDA recommended that blood establishments should implement donor screening for HIV-1 antigen using licensed test kits. Although, currently there are no tests for HIV-1 antigen(s) approved for donor screening, FDA issued the recommendation on HIV-1 in advance of the availability of such test in order to provide blood and plasma establishments with maximum time to prepare for this testing.
* On September 1, FDA authorized pre-approval distribution of intravenous cidofovir (Vistide) under a treatment IND protocol for HIV-infected persons relapsing cytomegalovirus (CMV) retinitis that has progressed despite treatment.
* On September 8, FDA published in the Federal Register a proposed rule to amend its regulations pertaining to investigational new drug applications (INDs) and new drug applications (NDAs). The proposed rule is responsive to one of the recommendations made by the National Task Force on AIDS Drug Development. The proposed rule would clearly define in the NDA format and content requirements the need to present effectiveness and safety data for important demographic subgroups, specifically gender, age, and racial subgroups.
* On October 12, FDA approved Biaxin (clarithromycin) for the prevention of Mycobacterium avium complex (MAC).
* On October 27, FDA granted marketing approval for Cytovene capsules (oral ganciclovir) as a prophylactic treatment for the prevention of HIV-related cytomegalovirus (CMV) disease.Continues.
| 697 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:07:27pm |
re: #693 reason0911
Hmm. I guess that depends on your definition of a scientists.
It's "definition of scientists," or "definition of a scientist." Case matters.
| 698 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:07:27pm |
re: #692 darthstar
I have a vaio. it's fairly new, but my kids do download quite a bit on it. I'm going to have to take it to sony for some restoration.
| 699 |
Kragar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:08:17pm |
Big guns rolling in. Ludwig is about to drop into this.
| 700 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:08:23pm |
re: #695 Obdicut
Here's an alternate theory: Rather than viruses, hackers are actively hacking into your computer and using remote access to do things on them. Rather than a program, it's actual user agents doing it.
Ooh...that requires wrapping one's entire body in tin-foil to stop.
| 703 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:10:12pm |
re: #698 reason0911
I have a vaio. it's fairly new, but my kids do download quite a bit on it. I'm going to have to take it to sony for some restoration.
Lesson #1 in keeping a machine healthy: Keep the fucking kids off of it. Buy them a desktop, get the wizards at Best Buy to set a parental filter for you, or create accounts without admin access for them so they can't install shit, and you'll be fine. Sorry, but your wounds are self-inflicted.
| 704 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:11:00pm |
re: #702 reason0911
I'm sorry, can you answer if you feel this is a reasonable theory that you should spend your time investigating?
| 705 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:12:04pm |
re: #696 Gus 802
this isn't the science. to come to a conclusion about what the virus is and isn't one can't rely on a timeline. That isn't helpful at all.
But honestly I think you're losing my point. I'm not arguing for or against his ideas. I'm stating the absurdity of arguing against an idea you haven't explored and don't have the background to address in any serious way.
| 706 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:12:15pm |
re: #667 reason0911
Ahh the trope about nothing being settled in science!
Let me ask you a question, is the Earth round or Flat? Is that settled science? Will that ever change with any new discoveries?
I wrote an detailed response to that here. Don't worry, it is a link to this website - in a different place.
Pre Science lecture: Is anything ever settled in science?
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
| 707 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:13:14pm |
re: #703 darthstar
I know!!! My daughter now has our old labtop. It's going to make life easier for my computer. good advice and duly noted.
| 708 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:14:27pm |
re: #706 LudwigVanQuixote
that seems quite settled and no one is arguing that it isn't. this is also a non-sequitur.
btw, have you visited the tropes website. It's pretty awesome.
| 709 |
Gus Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:15:09pm |
Timeline: A Brief History of HIV/AIDS - AEGiS
1983
* CDC (U.S.) warns blood banks of a possible problem with the blood supply.* Institut Pasteur (France) finds the virus (HIV).
* US President Ronald Reagan has not mentioned the word "AIDS" in public yet.
1984
* Dr. Robert Gallo (US) claims he discovered the virus that causes AIDS; however, this is about a year after the French discovery.
* US President Ronald Reagan has not mentioned the word "AIDS" in public yet.
1985
* The FDA (US) approves the first HIV antibody test. Blood products begin to be tested in the US and Japan.
* The first International Conference on AIDS is held in Atlanta (US).
* US President Ronald Reagan mentions the word "AIDS" in public for the first time in response to a reporters questions on September 17, 1985. See, also: Associated Press, Los Angeles Times
| 710 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:15:25pm |
re: #708 reason0911
that seems quite settled and no one is arguing that it isn't. this is also a non-sequitur.
btw, have you visited the tropes website. It's pretty awesome.
Got a link?
| 711 |
Gus Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:15:45pm |
re: #705 reason0911
this isn't the science. to come to a conclusion about what the virus is and isn't one can't rely on a timeline. That isn't helpful at all.
But honestly I think you're losing my point. I'm not arguing for or against his ideas. I'm stating the absurdity of arguing against an idea you haven't explored and don't have the background to address in any serious way.
What hypothesis? This CRAP?
First, the arguments presented against the HIV hypothesis are sound, although they are difficult to independently evaluate. In part, they cite lack of evidence. Who has time to check this with a review of 77,000 papers? The burden of proof is on the HIV advocates - a burden they have not accepted in a forthright manner.
| 712 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:17:04pm |
re: #708 reason0911
Actually, there are.
http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm
You can just Google flat earth society if you don't want to click on that link.
Do you need to consider their theories, or can you dismiss them a priori?
| 713 |
Gus Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:17:05pm |
Or this CRAP?
Additional readings for the AIDS article in Access to Energy 22-3 are "The Longevity of Homosexuals Before and After the AIDS Epidemic,'' by P. Cameron, W. L. Playfair, and S. Wellum, Omega Journal of Death and Dying 29, pp 249-272 (1994) and "AIDS: The Epidemic that Never Was,'' New African, pp 8-11, December (1993).
Cameron, et al report research results showing that the median age at death for homosexual men dying of AIDS is 39 years and that for homosexual men who do not die of AIDS is 42. By comparison, the value for heterosexual married men is 75. This is evidence in support of the hypothesis that AIDS may be little more than a general classification of deaths resulting from exposure to homosexual behavior.
| 714 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:17:26pm |
re: #688 reason0911
You're right, but when a scientist offers a hypothesis, I'm more inclined to consider it than the word of Rachel Maddow. On what grounds are you dismissing his arguments?
Well, an hypothesis is nothing more than an educated guess. One person's hypothesis might turn out to be correct - or mostly correct - or at least the general picture. Of course most of them end up being wrong.
What matters is when the data rolls in and thousands of scientists corroborate an hypothesis by different avenues.
As to the AIDS virus, this is one of the most researched things in medical history. The budget that goes into dealing with it, is vastly larger than that of NASA for instance and has been for years. There are hundreds of thousands of cases on record and thousands of researchers who are actually in the field or a related field who study it - and have been studying it since the 80's.
Now over all of them, you are interested in taking the word of a rude, proven fraud of a shamed scientist turned political hack.
Good show!
| 715 |
Kragar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:17:56pm |
Step 1) Ask for evidence
Step 2) Ignore evidence when provided
Step 3) Complain
Step 4) Repeat
| 716 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:18:45pm |
re: #708 reason0911
that seems quite settled and no one is arguing that it isn't. this is also a non-sequitur.
btw, have you visited the tropes website. It's pretty awesome.
No it is not a non-sequitor. It goes straight to the point of your misunderstanding. Things do get settled in science by a preponderance of evidence. HIV is the cause of AIDs. This is settled science.
| 717 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:18:59pm |
re: #706 LudwigVanQuixote
I'm not arguing that we don't accept the science available to us. I'm saying that dismissing a theory without exploration is absurd. You have no objective basis to come to a contrary conclusion. You've chosen either to believe or not to believe, but that hardly makes you right or puts you in a position to criticize those who haven't come to the same belief as you.
It's the same point I make with my Christian friend who's always trying to save me. You believe in God and Jesus Christ. Good for you. You don't know but you have faith. You recognize that it is a leap of faith yet you criticize me for not taking that same leap of faith without providing any evidence to support your claim. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not in a position to...and nor is anyone on this thread that I can tell. Maybe there are some scientists here, but I doubt it.
| 718 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:19:08pm |
re: #715 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Step 1) Ask for evidence
Step 2) Ignore evidence when provided
Step 3) Complain
Step 4) Repeat
5) Engage in sideline banter about "real life" to make it seem like you're a regular guy and not just a corporate-funded shill. "My daughter!" "Her laptop!"
| 719 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:20:15pm |
re: #717 reason0911
If dismissing a theory is absurd, then what do you call the opinions of someone like Art Robinson who is, in fact, dismissing not only theory, but emprical evidence?
| 720 |
Kragar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:20:45pm |
re: #718 iossarian
5) Engage in sideline banter about "real life" to make it seem like you're a regular guy and not just a corporate-funded shill. "My daughter!" "Her laptop!"
I was throwing that under complain.
| 721 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:21:40pm |
re: #719 darthstar
If dismissing a theory is absurd, then what do you call the opinions of someone like Art Robinson who is, in fact, dismissing not only theory, but emprical evidence?
Art Robinson is a brave scientist! A shining beacon of truthiness surrounded by the darkness of liberal conspiracies designed to feminize the manly United States of Americaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...
| 722 |
Gus Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:24:03pm |
More garbage "theories":
U.S. government AIDS programs are now receiving $6 billion per year and are based entirely upon the hypothesis that HIV virus causes AIDS. Yet, the articles referenced above and numerous additional publications by scientists who have become involved in this controversy state that: attempts to cause AIDS experimentally with HIV have completely failed; thousands of AIDS victims are HIV-free; and HIV shows none of the classical characteristics of a disease-producing organism. Moreover, AIDS is not a unique disease - it is an increased susceptibility to many ordinary diseases presumably as a result of depressed immune response. This depressed immunity can result from many other factors including those especially prevalent in the AIDS afflicted population - drug abuse and unhygienic exposure to very large numbers of different disease vectors. Moreover, large numbers of HIV carriers who are symptom-free are being treated by powerful life-threatening drugs that kill people in ways very similar to AIDS.
These dissident articles are, of course, only a tiny fraction of the remarkable 77,000 papers that have been published about AIDS, but ultimately only one paper will be sufficient to describe the truth.
It's not even a theory. It's more like a wingnut op-ed piece.
| 724 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:25:12pm |
re: #721 iossarian
Art Robinson is a brave scientist! A shining beacon of truthiness surrounded by the darkness of liberal conspiracies designed to feminize the manly United States of Americaaa...
In other words, he was interviewed by a LESBIAN!!11ty!
By the way, I went to the Giants game with two lesbians last night, and Lincecum still threw 14 Ks...
| 725 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:26:06pm |
re: #719 darthstar
he is not dismissing it. He said that the burden of proof was on the advocates of the science. that was 15 years ago. but again, i'd like to point out that there is still much uncertainty about what HIV is and how to diagnose it.
| 726 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:26:50pm |
re: #712 Obdicut
Actually, there are.
http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatea rthsociety.htm
You can just Google flat earth society if you don't want to click on that link.
Do you need to consider their theories, or can you dismiss them a priori?
You gotta love their mission statement.
| 727 |
Gus Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:27:11pm |
HIV/AIDS: Causes - MayoClinic.com
Causes
By Mayo Clinic staffScientists believe a virus similar to HIV first occurred in some populations of chimps and monkeys in Africa, where they're hunted for food. Contact with an infected monkey's blood during butchering or cooking may have allowed the virus to cross into humans and become HIV.
How does HIV become AIDS?
HIV destroys CD4 cells — a specific type of white blood cell that plays a large role in helping your body fight disease. Your immune system weakens as more CD4 cells are killed. You can have an HIV infection for years before it progresses to AIDS.
To be diagnosed with AIDS, you must have a CD4 count under 200 or experience an AIDS-defining complication, such as:
* Pneumocystis jiroveci pneumonia
* Cytomegalovirus
* Tuberculosis
* Toxoplasmosis
* CryptosporidiosisHow HIV is transmitted
To become infected with HIV, infected blood, semen or vaginal secretions must enter your body. You can't become infected through ordinary contact — hugging, kissing, dancing or shaking hands — with someone who has HIV or AIDS. HIV can't be transmitted through the air, water or via insect bites.
| 728 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:27:22pm |
re: #717 reason0911
I'm not arguing that we don't accept the science available to us.
The science available to us shows, through the evidence of millions of cases, that HIV is the cause of AIDS.
I'm saying that dismissing a theory without exploration is absurd.
Do you know what the difference between a theory and an hypothesis is? Clearly not.
Here, I wrote a detailed essay about that too, and how the scientific method actually works.
How science works and why we should trust it: Pre-science lecture 2
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
You have no objective basis to come to a contrary conclusion.
My objective basis is the work of the worldwide medical and virological community. I am not a physician or a virologist however. I am however, a professional physicist. Since we are not all capable of knowing every field, we have to develop the skills to spot real science and real scientific inquiry. Tens of thousands of corroborating accounts from different respected researchers counts.
You've chosen either to believe or not to believe, but that hardly makes you right or puts you in a position to criticize those who haven't come to the same belief as you.
Actually this is precisely what you are doing. Science is not about belief at all. It is about data and evidence.
It's the same point I make with my Christian friend who's always trying to save me. You believe in God and Jesus Christ. Good for you. You don't know but you have faith. You recognize that it is a leap of faith yet you criticize me for not taking that same leap of faith without providing any evidence to support your claim.
That would be you. What evidence do you have on this matter of your own?
I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not in a position to...and nor is anyone on this thread that I can tell. Maybe there are some scientists here, but I doubt it.
Well too bad for you that I'm here kiddo :)
| 729 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:28:28pm |
re: #725 reason0911
he is not dismissing it. He said that the burden of proof was on the advocates of the science. that was 15 years ago. but again, i'd like to point out that there is still much uncertainty about what HIV is and how to diagnose it.
It's called a blood test. They look for antibodies in the blood, and can have results in about 30 minutes. There's no uncertainty about it at all.
| 730 |
Gus Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:28:30pm |
re: #725 reason0911
he is not dismissing it. He said that the burden of proof was on the advocates of the science. that was 15 years ago. but again, i'd like to point out that there is still much uncertainty about what HIV is and how to diagnose it.
It was already settled 15 years ago. Arthur Robinson had no excuse then and he has no excuse now. HIV was discovered in 1983.
| 731 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:28:41pm |
re: #717 reason0911
ahahan "reason0911" I love the names you guys come up with
| 732 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:28:49pm |
re: #720 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
lol. I'm sitting at my desk with my door closed neglecting to do my work because it's boring and I hate it. Luckily I'm a manager so I don't have too much to be concerned about in the way of being caught. in a half hour I'm going to leave work, buy myself an awesome coat and make it home in time to take my little one to karate...
or I could just be a shill.
| 733 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:29:58pm |
re: #723 reason0911
this is a satirical website.
Gee, I wonder how that could be? however, they still accurately represent a lot of the theories of flat earthers-- why are theories disallowed simply because they're satirical?
Here's the real deal:
[Link: theflatearthsociety.org...]
| 734 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:30:03pm |
By the way to my lizard buddies, this guy is exactly why I wrote those pre-science lectures first. The things they say follow a certain play-book based on certain carefully cultivated (by people like Robinson and Stietz and their crackpot foundations) misunderstandings. It is as predictable as it is dull; ignorant, whiny and arrogantly stupid.
| 735 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:30:06pm |
re: #725 reason0911
he is not dismissing it. He said that the burden of proof was on the advocates of the science. that was 15 years ago. but again, i'd like to point out that there is still much uncertainty about what HIV is and how to diagnose it.
I love blog comment dumbshits in dead threads who make up crazy bullshit about science
I love guys like the you, don't ever change :D We beat your dumb asses all over the internet, it's a great way to start the day
| 736 |
Kragar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:30:06pm |
Of course now the question is "What evidence do we have that Ludwig is in fact a scientist?"
No links please.
///
| 738 |
Kragar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:30:49pm |
re: #734 LudwigVanQuixote
By the way to my lizard buddies, this guy is exactly why I wrote those pre-science lectures first. The things they say follow a certain play-book based on certain carefully cultivated (by people like Robinson and Stietz and their crackpot foundations) misunderstandings. It is as predictable as it is dull; ignorant, whiny and arrogantly stupid.
Too bad they'll never read what you wrote.
| 739 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:30:52pm |
re: #732 reason0911
or I could just be a shill.
The thing is, it's difficult to come up with an alternative explanation of why people so assiduously avoid the evidence.
I know, I know, you don't like to click on links because of the viruses.
| 741 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:31:32pm |
re: #732 reason0911
lol. I'm sitting at my desk with my door closed neglecting to do my work because it's boring and I hate it. Luckily I'm a manager so I don't have too much to be concerned about in the way of being caught. in a half hour I'm going to leave work, buy myself an awesome coat and make it home in time to take my little one to karate...
or I could just be a shill.
Don't forget to stop by plumbing on your way out of the store before going out and buying a coat...your sense of reason is clogged, and what you think is awesome might look foolish to your kid.
| 743 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:32:45pm |
re: #735 WindUpBird
I love blog comment dumbshits in dead threads who make up crazy bullshit about science
Well, one could argue he had a bit of a Lazarus effect on this thread.
| 744 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:33:43pm |
| 745 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:33:51pm |
re: #743 darthstar
Well, one could argue he had a bit of a Lazarus effect on this thread.
It's sorta like when cats see a dragonfly, they're like OH HAY! and they aaaal cluster around
and then they bat it around for a while, and then they eat it
| 746 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:34:07pm |
| 748 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:34:22pm |
re: #737 reason0911
do you have a website?
Most of my stuff is here. I have a mini blog on this site. You can check out my posts and get there by following either of the links I gave you. I am particularly interested in - and do research into AGW. You will find, in my non-political posts, links to published, peer-reviewed journals and government reports that will supply you with all of the data you could possibly want.
| 749 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:34:32pm |
re: #747 reason0911
you're a clever one aren't you...
Soda or pop? Just curious what side of the country you're from
| 750 |
Kragar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:34:47pm |
| 751 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:35:45pm |
re: #744 reason0911
I'm going to need re: #728 LudwigVanQuixote
I don't need a link to you telling me how science works. I need you to give me the science that convinced you and point out flaws in his science and conclusion. Can you do this?
To which question? Robinson says lots of completely bogus and kooky things. Which one of his lunacies would you like me to debunk?
| 752 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:35:48pm |
Heh. Look at that karma rating. Registered less than 2 hours and already -122.
| 753 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:35:49pm |
re: #749 WindUpBird
I don't know what that means but I'm from Brooklyn NY better known as crooklyn or at least that's how my friends and I used to refer to it after the spike lee movie came out.
| 754 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:35:56pm |
re: #748 LudwigVanQuixote
He don' need no steenking links.
| 755 |
Kragar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:36:28pm |
re: #753 reason0911
I don't know what that means but I'm from Brooklyn NY better known as crooklyn or at least that's how my friends and I used to refer to it after the spike lee movie came out.
Step 3
| 756 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:36:30pm |
re: #750 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Step 2
Well they get the same plays as the Disco Institute types, because that play book was written by folks like Robinson and Steitz.
| 757 |
Gus Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:37:11pm |
re: #673 reason0911
you're right. I misspoke. I rarely click on links of unknown origin. I try to avoid viruses.
Lame.
| 758 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:37:12pm |
re: #752 Charles
I registered so I could comment on the post. I saw a blog post elsewhere about the interview but they didn't provide a working link so I googled it and this is what I got. Saw the comments and decided to blow off work for the rest of the afternoon.
| 759 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:37:16pm |
re: #753 reason0911
I don't know what that means but I'm from Brooklyn NY better known as crooklyn or at least that's how my friends and I used to refer to it after the spike lee movie came out.
eh you're probably from so cal
everyone on the internet in so cal likes to say they're from new york
| 760 |
Kragar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:38:22pm |
re: #759 WindUpBird
eh you're probably from so cal
everyone on the internet in so cal likes to say they're from new york
I'm in SoCal and screw New York.
| 761 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:38:51pm |
re: #744 reason0911
I'm going to need re: #728 LudwigVanQuixote
I don't need a link to you telling me how science works. I need you to give me the science that convinced you and point out flaws in his science and conclusion. Can you do this?
It's always the same old shit, isn't it? "I need you to tell me again." "No, that didn't satisfy me, I need you to tell me again." "Can you point me to some real evidence?"
Then it's "But the solutions being proposed are ECONOMIC SUICIDE."
Then it's "If the AGW crowd would just stop using this as a POLITICAL FOOTBALL, maybe I could get on board."
Then it's back to step one, with a different registration.
| 762 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:38:53pm |
re: #747 reason0911
you're a clever one aren't you...
You said you're a manager who isn't too worried about getting caught doing jack shit at work because you have an office. I interpreted that to mean that your employees were out working on the floor...sarcastically, I admit. But what it really means is that you're in a job you don't like, but you feel relatively safe in it, so long as you spend two or three hours a week generating excel sheets for your boss and don't look too disinterested in meetings.
| 763 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:39:38pm |
you know what, this is ridiculout and I'm not going to waste time proving I'm a real person. here's a link to my facebook.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
| 764 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:40:11pm |
re: #758 reason0911
I registered so I could comment on the post. I saw a blog post elsewhere about the interview but they didn't provide a working link so I googled it and this is what I got. Saw the comments and decided to blow off work for the rest of the afternoon.
I hope you typed in the URL instead of clicking the virus-laden link. If not, you must immediately disinfect your intranets to avoid permanent brickage.
| 765 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:40:16pm |
re: #761 iossarian
he didn't tell me anything. lol. he sent me to a link that is off topic. what are you talking about?!
| 766 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:40:56pm |
re: #764 Charles
i typed it in... well actually I copied and pasted.
| 767 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:41:06pm |
re: #763 reason0911
you know what, this is ridiculout and I'm not going to waste time proving I'm a real person. here's a link to my facebook.
You're not real until we say you're real.
| 768 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:41:33pm |
| 770 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:42:24pm |
re: #762 darthstar
I'm really smart. My work gets done fast and the owner feels confident in my abilities. It's a small office, kinda like a family.
| 771 |
Kragar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:42:50pm |
re: #766 reason0911
i typed it in... well actually I copied and pasted.
/facepalm
Yes, because that guarantees you wont hit a redirect or anything like that.
Moron.
| 773 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:43:13pm |
| 774 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:43:33pm |
Umm Reason?
Which of the completely bogus bits on nonsense from the fraud Robinson would you like me to debunk? I will be very happy to present evidence (though you might have to click a link or two) and a detailed logical argument.
| 775 |
Kragar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:43:39pm |
re: #763 reason0911
you know what, this is ridiculout and I'm not going to waste time proving I'm a real person. here's a link to my facebook.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
Sorry, no links please.
| 776 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:44:03pm |
re: #771 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
now now. I'm hardly a moron. Maybe a little internet ignorant, but I think you're overstating a bit.
| 777 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:44:50pm |
re: #765 reason0911
Look, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt one last time. All the evidence supports AGW. There are hardly any credible scientists that deny it; my climate scientist friend tells me he knows of two in his entire field, of which one is a known contrarian and the other runs research projects sponsored by oil companies.
The links to the evidence get posted here every time someone comes along with the line that "the science isn't settled."
There is simply no way that people can reasonably make this claim for any prolonged period of time. In fact a lot of the people that post here have changed their opinions significantly towards an acceptance that AGW is real over the past few years.
| 778 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:45:49pm |
re: #777 iossarian
In the meat world, I probably know your friend :)
| 779 |
Kragar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:46:13pm |
re: #776 reason0911
now now. I'm hardly a moron. Maybe a little internet ignorant, but I think you're overstating a bit.
Oh, I think you're making my case quite nicely for me on that particular count.
| 780 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:46:43pm |
re: #766 reason0911
LOL!
Continue the educating, folks!
| 781 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:48:13pm |
re: #778 LudwigVanQuixote
You might well do. He wrote his thesis on temperature change in ice ages past. He's been in the field for about 10-15 years now I would guess.
| 782 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:49:04pm |
re: #780 Floral Giraffe
there is no educating occurring here. Just ad hominem attacks because I'm detracting from what I guess is the standard line.
| 783 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:49:33pm |
re: #782 reason0911
there is no educating occurring here. Just ad hominem attacks because I'm detracting from what I guess is the standard line.
Ah, the "party line" gambit. Blood in the water.
| 784 |
Kragar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:50:21pm |
re: #783 iossarian
Ah, the "party line" gambit. Blood in the water.
Now we see the violence inherent in the system.
| 785 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:50:48pm |
| 786 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:51:43pm |
re: #782 reason0911
there is no educating occurring here. Just ad hominem attacks because I'm detracting from what I guess is the standard line.
What ad hominem? You're being mocked, openly, based on your inability to recognize a valid argument. Nobody's calling you an asshole. In fact, you've been asked repeatedly for clarification. Christ, you're about as hypersensitive as Sarah Palin (THAT's ad hominem, by the way).
| 787 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:51:49pm |
re: #782 reason0911
there is no educating occurring here. Just ad hominem attacks because I'm detracting from what I guess is the standard line.
No on the contrary. I am very happy to educate you. Which particular claim of Robinson's do you wish me to discuss?
As to science having a standard line well, it goes something like this:
It is important to note that nowhere in the definition of science is there any room for democracy, personal preference or being “even handed” with the other side. In a scientific debate, once sufficient data comes in, there is always a winner and a loser.
Amongst professional scientists, these debates generally take two forms. Firstly, “does this really mean what you think it means?” Secondly, “did you really see what you think you saw?” Once those debates are settled, you have clarity. Both debates are closed by more data and/or better analysis. Eventually, the evidence mounts and consensus is reached. An open debate implies that there is, as yet, insufficient data, incomplete analysis or both. The final word always goes to the physical evidence itself. There is no “second place.” This is as it should be. Good scientists do not say that the universe is some way that it isn’t to please anyone, ever.
| 788 |
Gus Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:51:59pm |
re: #782 reason0911
there is no educating occurring here. Just ad hominem attacks because I'm detracting from what I guess is the standard line.
Should intelligent design be taught alongside evolution in science class?
| 789 |
Kragar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:52:01pm |
| 790 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:52:14pm |
re: #785 iossarian
LOL
"I'm being repressed!"
He is waiting to whine about the violence inherent in the system!
| 791 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:52:23pm |
| 792 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:52:33pm |
| 794 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:53:42pm |
| 795 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:53:51pm |
re: #793 reason0911
she!
Very well madame, would you care to take up my challenge or whine some more that no one is interested in educating you?
| 796 |
Kragar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:53:56pm |
re: #787 LudwigVanQuixote
Having been identified as a primary threat, your posts will from this point either be ignored or deflected so as not to engage. Meanwhile, he will continue to press other posters to provide evidence, then give reasons why their's in unsuitable.
| 797 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:54:56pm |
re: #795 LudwigVanQuixote
Very well madame, would you care to take up my challenge or whine some more that no one is interested in educating you?
Nobody ever calls me "madame"...sheesh.
| 798 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:54:58pm |
re: #788 Gus 802
should it be taught as a fact? of course not. Should it be taught as a social theory. sure. they're going to come across people who believe it. they ought to have an understanding of it. They teach worse things in school. believe me. My kids still come home with stuff calling "honest" abe the freer of slaves. a widely dispelled mistruth.
| 799 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:55:33pm |
re: #791 reason0911
Does he conclude that the ice ages past were anthropomorphic? Or that the warming periods that followed were anthropomorphic? re: #783 iossarian
Well, I'm glad you asked, since I specifically asked him that question the last time we met (we were out for a few beers in a small group that also included an AGW skeptic/denier friend of mine).
He said that the current warming is much, much more rapid than can be explained by the models that are used to explain past ice ages.
So the answer to your question is that no, past warming was not anthropogenic (I think that's the word you're looking for) and that yes, current warming is anthropogenic.
The only remaining open questions are around the specifics of the models used to predict just how bad the current situation is getting.
| 800 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:55:58pm |
| 801 |
Gus Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:55:59pm |
re: #798 reason0911
should it be taught as a fact? of course not. Should it be taught as a social theory. sure. they're going to come across people who believe it. they ought to have an understanding of it. They teach worse things in school. believe me. My kids still come home with stuff calling "honest" abe the freer of slaves. a widely dispelled mistruth.
Hmm. OK.
I think your boat just sprung an even bigger leak.
| 802 |
Kragar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:56:01pm |
re: #797 darthstar
Nobody ever calls me "madame"...sheesh.
Well, maybe if you wore that feather boa more often.
| 803 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:56:44pm |
re: #795 LudwigVanQuixote
sure. I'm up for the "challenge" though I'm not quite sure what it is. I'm not a threat. I believe in non-aggression.
| 804 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:56:47pm |
re: #798 reason0911
My kids still come home with stuff calling "honest" abe the freer of slaves. a widely dispelled mistruth.
Why do you hate Abraham Lincoln?
| 805 |
Gus Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:57:11pm |
I guess the Emancepation Proclamation is just a theory for some people.
[rolls eyes]
| 806 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:57:15pm |
re: #796 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Having been identified as a primary threat, your posts will from this point either be ignored or deflected so as not to engage. Meanwhile, he will continue to press other posters to provide evidence, then give reasons why their's in unsuitable.
She is apparently a she... Alas, I am repressing her dogma that she misrepresents as free thought or her own ideas. Alas, I am happy to use all of that actual science and data to repudiate the half truths, blatant falsehoods and things taken on faith by her.
These sorts hate that.
| 807 |
Kragar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:57:44pm |
re: #805 Gus 802
I guess the Emancepation Proclamation is just a theory for some people.
[rolls eyes]
I don't listen to hip hop.
| 808 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:58:05pm |
re: #798 reason0911
should it be taught as a fact? of course not. Should it be taught as a social theory. sure. they're going to come across people who believe it. they ought to have an understanding of it. They teach worse things in school. believe me. My kids still come home with stuff calling "honest" abe the freer of slaves. a widely dispelled mistruth.
Hang on...did you just put quotes around the word honest in reference to Abraham Lincoln and question the Emancipation Proclamation?
Link to Emancipation Proclamation
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
| 809 |
Gus Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:58:07pm |
re: #798 reason0911
They teach worse things in school. believe me.
Like the stuff being promoted by teh "Homersexual Agenda"!!11ty
| 810 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:58:34pm |
re: #804 Charles
I hate him!!! lol.
Of course I don't hate him, but clearly he did not take the country to war to free slaves and there were slaves across america well after the emancipation was signed. I know my own history.
| 811 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:59:33pm |
re: #804 Charles
Why do you hate Abraham Lincoln?
Isn't always fascinating how these people free assosciate their grievances. When one point gets hammered down or debunked, they move on to yet another gripe as if the first discussion never happened.
I really love how they talk about how they whine reason and free inquiry when reason is the last thing they are interested in.
| 812 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:00:10pm |
| 813 |
Kragar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:00:14pm |
re: #806 LudwigVanQuixote
She is apparently a she... Alas, I am repressing her dogma that she misrepresents as free thought or her own ideas. Alas, I am happy to use all of that actual science and data to repudiate the half truths, blatant falsehoods and things taken on faith by her.
These sorts hate that.
I notice she went with the deflect choice. A bold move. I was expecting at least 3 or 4 posts before responding to you on a completely different post.
| 814 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:00:43pm |
re: #806 LudwigVanQuixote
I haven't taken anything on faith. Please provide the science...from both sides. I'd like to make a comparison and since you've already done that you can help and it'll be a challenge for me which I'm up to...sifting through all that info and trying to interpret it. I'm down.
| 815 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:01:09pm |
re: #810 reason0911
I hate him!!! lol.
Of course I don't hate him, but clearly he did not take the country to war to free slaves and there were slaves across america well after the emancipation was signed. I know my own history.
So that minor slavery issue was just an excuse for "honest" Abe to do ... something else? What, exactly? Please be as detailed as possible.
| 816 |
Randall Gross Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:01:13pm |
So it registered to talk about a climate change, but picked the handle "reason0911" now I wonder what that's about?
| 817 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:01:14pm |
re: #810 reason0911
I hate him!!! lol.
Of course I don't hate him, but clearly he did not take the country to war to free slaves and there were slaves across america well after the emancipation was signed. I know my own history.
A word of advice...this hole you're in...digging isn't going to get you out of it.
| 818 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:01:14pm |
re: #807 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
you must be a racist then. Who doesn't listen to Lil' Wayne. lol
| 820 |
Kragar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:01:34pm |
re: #814 reason0911
I haven't taken anything on faith. Please provide the science...from both sides. I'd like to make a comparison and since you've already done that you can help and it'll be a challenge for me which I'm up to...sifting through all that info and trying to interpret it. I'm down.
Step 1
| 822 |
Kragar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:02:23pm |
| 823 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:02:59pm |
| 824 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:03:28pm |
re: #799 iossarian
Well, I'm glad you asked, since I specifically asked him that question the last time we met (we were out for a few beers in a small group that also included an AGW skeptic/denier friend of mine).
He said that the current warming is much, much more rapid than can be explained by the models that are used to explain past ice ages.
So the answer to your question is that no, past warming was not anthropogenic (I think that's the word you're looking for) and that yes, current warming is anthropogenic.
The only remaining open questions are around the specifics of the models used to predict just how bad the current situation is getting.
Just to add to that, heating up a planet is hard to do. Planets are big and have a lot of thermal inertia.
There are only so many mechanisms that can pull it off. Orbital variations and volcanic activity are two of the biggest.
Right now, as per orbital variations, we should be cooling (yet we are warming at an alarming rate) and there has been no dramatic volcanic activity of the sort, that could do this, in the past 200 years.
Since it is well established that CO2 is a GHG, and it is easy to directly measure our output of it and concentrations of it in the present atmosphere, we know we are doing it. We are the only viable cause left.
| 825 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:03:58pm |
re: #821 reason0911
non-sequitur.
No...not really. Let me guess...you think there were black soldiers voluntarily fighting for the South as well during the Civil War. Your visit, while it might be short lived, has certainly been entertaining.
| 826 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:03:59pm |
| 827 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:04:08pm |
re: #814 reason0911
There are not "two sides" in science. There are just scientists. Sometimes they disagree, but that doesn't put them on "opposite sides".
This is a fundamental misconception about science that is exploited by people who seek to ignore its conclusions.
| 828 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:05:40pm |
re: #824 LudwigVanQuixote
OK, Ludwig, now we know what ONE SIDE says, what about the OTHER SIDE?
Eh?
EH???
o_O
| 830 |
Kragar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:06:43pm |
re: #828 iossarian
OK, Ludwig, now we know what ONE SIDE says, what about the OTHER SIDE?
Eh?
EH???
o_O
Ra's chariot is pulling the sun closer to earth and he will only stop once the proper sacrifices have been offer to the Nile.
| 831 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:06:46pm |
re: #825 darthstar
I don't know about that. I've heard it said, but for my part, I'm black and I know for certain that slavery persisted after the emancipation and lincoln said many times that while he opposed slavery and thought Africans should be sent back to Africa or other places, he said that he would not oppose slavery politically if it would keep the country together. The war was about a secession and tariffs and not slavery.
| 832 |
Randall Gross Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:07:09pm |
re: #826 reason0911
Registered to talk gibberish?
| 833 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:07:26pm |
re: #814 reason0911
I haven't taken anything on faith. Please provide the science...from both sides. I'd like to make a comparison and since you've already done that you can help and it'll be a challenge for me which I'm up to...sifting through all that info and trying to interpret it. I'm down.
On which of Robinson's claims?
As to Anthropogenic Global Warming, look at my 824.
As to AIDs being caused by HIV, that has already been discussed up thread.
I wrote a post even further up thread about his crazy views on hormesis.
As to both sides, in science, there are no two sides ever. There is no second place. Either the data, evidence and mathematics supports you or it does not. The data support AGW, HIV as the cause of AIDS and the fact that hormesis is misapplied in the case of radiation.
| 834 |
Varek Raith Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:08:12pm |
re: #833 LudwigVanQuixote
On which of Robinson's claims?
As to Anthropogenic Global Warming, look at my 824.
As to AIDs being caused by HIV, that has already been discussed up thread.
I wrote a post even further up thread about his crazy views on hormesis.
As to both sides, in science, there are no two sides ever. There is no second place. Either the data, evidence and mathematics supports you or it does not. The data support AGW, HIV as the cause of AIDS and the fact that hormesis is misapplied in the case of radiation.
Let it rain toxic waste!
/Art Robinson
| 835 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:09:46pm |
re: #833 LudwigVanQuixote
HIV wasn't discussed and the point I made about testing was completely ignored. I'll check out the link in 824 now.
| 836 |
Gus Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:09:54pm |
Yes. Ignore history. Ignore the Emancipation Proclamation and even the 13th Amendment.
While the Senate did pass the amendment on April 8, 1864, by a vote of 38 to 6, the House declined to do so. After it was reintroduced by Representative James Mitchell Ashley, President Lincoln took an active role to ensure its passage through the House by ensuring the amendment was added to the Republican Party platform for the upcoming Presidential elections. His efforts came to fruition when the House passed the bill on January 21, 1865, by a vote of 119 to 56. The Thirteenth Amendment's archival copy bears an apparent Presidential signature, under the usual ones of the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate, after the words "Approved February 1, 1865".
The Thirteenth Amendment completed the abolition of slavery, which had begun with the Emancipation Proclamation issued by President Abraham Lincoln in 1863.
Shortly after the amendment's adoption, selective enforcement of certain laws, such as laws against vagrancy, allowed blacks to continue to be subjected to involuntary servitude in some cases.
The Thirteenth Amendment was followed by the Fourteenth Amendment (civil rights in the states), in 1868, and the Fifteenth Amendment (which bans racial voting restrictions), in 1870.
All within a year and weeks of Lincoln's assassination on April 15, 1865.
| 837 |
Varek Raith Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:12:11pm |
Damn.
I never knew anyone could possibly take Robinson seriously.
:/
| 838 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:12:36pm |
Ok. Ire: #833 LudwigVanQuixote
Ok. I'm going to copy and paste 824 to word and research it. I'll let you know what I come up with. give me some time. I'm not likely to come back here, but if you friend me on facebook at the link provided I'll be certain to get back to you. Hopefully without any animosity. I don't see any reason for it.
| 840 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:14:27pm |
re: #831 reason0911
I don't know about that. I've heard it said, but for my part, I'm black and I know for certain that slavery persisted after the emancipation and lincoln said many times that while he opposed slavery and thought Africans should be sent back to Africa or other places, he said that he would not oppose slavery politically if it would keep the country together. The war was about a secession and tariffs and not slavery.
Well, it's not like it was sent out by email...it took weeks for information to travel across the country back then...longer still in Texas.
All wars are, at some level, about economics. I'll give you that. But the session was over the expansion of slavery into northern states, which Lincoln was against (i.e. he was against expanded slavery).
From wikipedia:
In the presidential election of 1860, the Republican Party, led by Abraham Lincoln, had campaigned against the expansion of slavery beyond the states in which it already existed. In response to the Republican victory in that election, seven states declared their secession from the Union before Lincoln took office on March 4, 1861. Both the outgoing administration of President James Buchanan and Lincoln's incoming administration rejected the legality of secession, considering it rebellion. Several other slave states rejected calls for secession at this point.Hostilities began on April 12, 1861, when Confederate forces attacked a U.S. military installation at Fort Sumter in South Carolina. Lincoln responded by calling for a volunteer army from each state to recapture federal property. This led to declarations of secession by four more slave states. Both sides raised armies as the Union assumed control of the border states early in the war and established a naval blockade. In September 1862, Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation made ending slavery in the South a war goal,[1] and dissuaded the British from intervening.[2]
The South started it. Lincoln said, "Fine, fuckers. Game on." and that led to the end of slavery. So yes, he did free the slaves. It's okay to let your kids learn that in school.
| 841 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:15:31pm |
re: #838 reason0911
Ok. I
Ok. I'm going to copy and paste 824 to word and research it. I'll let you know what I come up with. give me some time. I'm not likely to come back here, but if you friend me on facebook at the link provided I'll be certain to get back to you. Hopefully without any animosity. I don't see any reason for it.
Your facebook link was actually a link to Ludwig's pre-Science discussion...you never did post a facebook link. Just saying.
| 842 |
Randall Gross Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:15:41pm |
Science Denialism, Historical Revisionism -- a single Ron PAUL! would win it the trifecta.
| 843 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:16:50pm |
re: #840 darthstar
The emancipation freed only those slaves in territories not under union control.
| 845 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:17:32pm |
re: #838 reason0911
Ok. I
Ok. I'm going to copy and paste 824 to word and research it. I'll let you know what I come up with. give me some time. I'm not likely to come back here, but if you friend me on facebook at the link provided I'll be certain to get back to you. Hopefully without any animosity. I don't see any reason for it.
I don't bear you any ill will. If you are honestly going to research it, please do the following.
Understand what a Milankovitch cycle is, in terms of orbital forcing. If you get those, then you get the main point about how we discredit orbital variation and how we have tied them to past warm and cool periods in the Earth's history.
As to volcanic activity, please use a respected source for your data. The various US geological groups are very good at giving data on the web. Do not use some opinion web site. Get the real thing and accept no substitute.
Also, you can check out NASA solar emission measurements to find that the sun isn't abnormally hot either.
| 846 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:17:55pm |
text from the emancipation proclamation:
"That on the 1st day of January, A.D. 1863, all persons held as
slaves within any State or designated part of a State the people
whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States shall
be then, thenceforward, and forever free; and the executive
government of the United States, including the military and naval
authority thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of such
persons and will do no act or acts to repress such persons, or any
of them, in any efforts they may make for their actual freedom.
| 847 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:19:28pm |
re: #846 reason0911
text from the emancipation proclamation:
"That on the 1st day of January, A.D. 1863, all persons held as
slaves within any State or designated part of a State the people
whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States shall
be then, thenceforward, and forever free; and the executive
government of the United States, including the military and naval
authority thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of such
persons and will do no act or acts to repress such persons, or any
of them, in any efforts they may make for their actual freedom.
Well, given that slavery was already prohibited in the other states not rebelling, that would seem to be pretty inclusive.
| 848 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:20:25pm |
re: #844 reason0911
You're providing a viewpoint we don't normally see around here, for which I thank you. Where do you stand on the Darwin issue?
| 849 |
Randall Gross Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:20:49pm |
re: #847 darthstar
Shhh... you might confuse him, don't mention the 13th or 14th amendment either...
| 850 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:21:01pm |
re: #845 LudwigVanQuixote
I don't bear you any ill will. If you are honestly going to research it, please do the following.
Understand what a Milankovitch cycle is, in terms of orbital forcing. If you get those, then you get the main point about how we discredit orbital variation and how we have tied them to past warm and cool periods in the Earth's history.
As to volcanic activity, please use a respected source for your data. The various US geological groups are very good at giving data on the web. Do not use some opinion web site. Get the real thing and accept no substitute.
Also, you can check out NASA solar emission measurements to find that the sun isn't abnormally hot either.
LVQ--Have you been away at some freakn' mellow ashram? Didn't you hear that yoga is dangerous to the soul? I read that on a web link.
| 851 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:21:03pm |
re: #845 LudwigVanQuixote
:) this is what I have in mind. the sharing of ideas, but please, I have to go so either friend me or send me a message through facebook so I have a way to get in contact with you. This is an invite to you only. Everyone else has dedicated themselves to calling me names
| 852 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:21:31pm |
re: #847 darthstar
that isn't true. please re-read the history.
| 854 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:22:33pm |
re: #851 reason0911
:) this is what I have in mind. the sharing of ideas, but please, I have to go so either friend me or send me a message through facebook so I have a way to get in contact with you. This is an invite to you only. Everyone else has dedicated themselves to calling me names
I didn't call you names, and for the last time, you didn't link your facebook account, you linked Ludwig's page. Not all hyperlinks go to the same place.
| 855 |
Varek Raith Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:23:37pm |
re: #854 darthstar
I didn't call you names, and for the last time, you didn't link your facebook account, you linked Ludwig's page. Not all hyperlinks go to the same place.
Unless Al Gore frakked up when he was placing the series of tubes...
| 856 |
gehazi Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:23:53pm |
re: #847 darthstar
Well, given that slavery was already prohibited in the other states not rebelling, that would seem to be pretty inclusive.
In fairness to her, the border states like Kentucky and Missouri (where slavery was legal) were specifically exempted from the Emancipation Proclamation, probably because Lincoln wisely didn't want to deal with the possibility of added revolts in those states.
Of course, all of that was taken care of by the time the 13th Ammendment rolled around, which Miss reason is steadfastly ignoring.
| 857 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:24:35pm |
re: #851 reason0911
:) this is what I have in mind. the sharing of ideas, but please, I have to go so either friend me or send me a message through facebook so I have a way to get in contact with you. This is an invite to you only. Everyone else has dedicated themselves to calling me names
I don't call people names. , dipshit.
| 858 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:24:35pm |
re: #856 gehazi
In fairness to her, the border states like Kentucky and Missouri (where slavery was legal) were specifically exempted from the Emancipation Proclamation, probably because Lincoln wisely didn't want to deal with the possibility of added revolts in those states.
Of course, all of that was taken care of by the time the 13th Ammendment rolled around, which Miss reason is steadfastly ignoring.
Point taken.
| 859 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:25:57pm |
re: #850 Decatur Deb
LVQ--Have you been away at some freakn' mellow ashram? Didn't you hear that yoga is dangerous to the soul? I read that on a web link.
I reserve my vitriol for the jerks. This one is not a jerk. She is stubborn and misinformed, but has not yet been rude, obnoxious or condescending.
| 860 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:26:00pm |
| 861 |
theheat Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:26:33pm |
re: #717 reason0911
It's Friday and someone is trying to paint LVQ as dim and thick about climate science. I dunno, but that was enough to make me laugh hysterically for the first time today.
Let's just say, you went for the big box when you should have stayed behind the curtain. Sometimes having your limitations pointed out in a public place can be painful. Especially when they use big words. And have lots of facts. And tremendous endurance.
You might take up another pastime, like ice skating uphill. Just saying.
| 862 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:27:16pm |
re: #859 LudwigVanQuixote
I reserve my vitriol for the jerks. This one is not a jerk. She is stubborn and misinformed, but has not yet been rude, obnoxious or condescending.
Yes, the language level is improving. It's still disingenuous crap.
| 863 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:27:33pm |
| 864 |
Gus Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:28:35pm |
Yep. Figures. Ron Paul.
Another neo-Confederate apologist to boot.
| 865 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:28:37pm |
| 866 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:28:38pm |
| 868 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:29:48pm |
re: #863 reason0911
lol.
I have to run. talk to you later. My name is Angel, by the way.
I do hope that you follow through and research this. I hope that afterwards you come back. I actually am a physicist, and I care very much about this topic. I will be very happy to discuss it with you here further. If you come with legitimate questions.
| 869 |
reason0911 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:30:03pm |
re: #865 darthstar
I am with campaign for liberty. I don't like the political aspect. I see no point to it, but I do like the philosophical perspective they are promoting.
| 870 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:30:33pm |
| 871 |
Randall Gross Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:31:08pm |
re: #858 darthstar
Not really, they wanted to be confederate but couldn't and other mechanisms removed legal slavery since the Union was already there.
However, this occurred after a standing constitutional convention declared the legislature and governor void after Federal troops marched on and took over the capital. Missouri, since the Union already controlled most of it, was exempted from the Emancipation Proclamation that outlawed slavery elsewhere. However, the standing State constitutional convention repealed slavery in Missouri before Federal constitutional amendments passed. The Confederacy recognized the pro-Confederate claimants in both Kentucky and Missouri and laid claim to those states based on their authority, with representatives from both states seated in the Confederate Congress. Later versions of Confederate flags had thirteen stars, reflecting the Confederacy's claims to Kentucky and Missouri.
| 872 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:31:15pm |
re: #867 reason0911
it's genuine.
But dangerously wrong. Do consider that if the scientific community is correct about AGW, and people like you vote against any action, or support the corrupt politicians who are opposed to action, the consequences are mass starvation, flood, drought, spread of disease and economic collapse on a global scale.
| 873 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:31:31pm |
Perfect. A Paulian. Your last name is "Robinson." Any relation to Art up there at the top of this thread?
| 874 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:34:44pm |
re: #873 Charles
Perfect. A Paulian. Your last name is "Robinson." Any relation to Art up there at the top of this thread?
She could have saved us all a lot of time if she'd just said that up front.
| 875 |
Randall Gross Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:35:04pm |
re: #873 Charles
Remember how tons of RP supporters went out last election and set up fake facebook accts posing as blacks, jews, contruction workers, etc. to help inflate the buzz?
| 876 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:39:54pm |
re: #875 Thanos
Remember how tons of RP supporters went out last election and set up fake facebook accts posing as blacks, jews, contruction workers, etc. to help inflate the buzz?
I clicked on a few of "her" friends...Napolitano fans, Paulians...all of them.
| 877 |
darthstar Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:42:19pm |
re: #875 Thanos
Remember how tons of RP supporters went out last election and set up fake facebook accts posing as blacks, jews, contruction workers, etc. to help inflate the buzz?
Oh, and one of "her" likes was hating Barack Obama...
| 878 |
Randall Gross Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:43:56pm |
I had a strong suspicion immediately after reading its chosen nick.
| 879 |
Obdicut Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:46:04pm |
re: #876 darthstar
She also likes "The World Against Israel's Actions in Palestine!".
| 880 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:48:53pm |
| 881 |
iossarian Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:49:38pm |
Ron Paul... Atlas Shrugged... "The Politically Incorrect Guide to American History"...
Whatever. Maybe she's for real and will actually read up on this. Ever the optimist, I.
| 882 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:54:44pm |
re: #125 NJDhockeyfan
The climate has been changing for millions of years and they just decided a few years ago that global warming is the fault of humans? That's why I don't believe it yet.
Deb,
Now this one is a jerk... Probably good I missed him.
| 883 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:57:02pm |
re: #882 LudwigVanQuixote
Deb,
Now this one is a jerk... Probably good I missed him.
That was going on at 2:30 Central. NJD is a long-term Lizard, though, not a Passing Fancy.
| 884 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:58:47pm |
re: #883 Decatur Deb
That was going on at 2:30 Central. NJD is a long-term Lizard, though, not a Passing Fancy.
Yes, and he's been a jerk for quite some time as well :)
| 885 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:59:17pm |
Suddenly the sound of crickets is heard.
| 886 |
Vambo Fri, Oct 8, 2010 4:21:19pm |
re: #468 NJDhockeyfan
72,000 stimulus payments went to dead people
I wonder how many jobs this stimulus money has created or saved?
Brietbart.com? You're a fucking tool...
| 888 |
Tigger2005 Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:25:45pm |
re: #705 reason0911
this isn't the science. to come to a conclusion about what the virus is and isn't one can't rely on a timeline. That isn't helpful at all.
But honestly I think you're losing my point. I'm not arguing for or against his ideas. I'm stating the absurdity of arguing against an idea you haven't explored and don't have the background to address in any serious way.
So very stupid.
If someone states that the Earth is flat... well, I've never explored that idea. I have no background in any science related to demonstrating whether the Earth is spherical or flat or some other shape. But I know that the scientists who do have the necessary background are 100% in agreement that the Earth is a sphere. But you expect me to do the research and determine this for myself before I tell a flat earther he's full of shit, instead of taking the word of thousands upon thousands of scientists over the past several hundred years?
Suppose I take my car to ten mechanics who look under the hood and run diagnostics and they all tell me the same thing is wrong with it. So someone asks me what's wrong with my car and I say, "The thingamajig is worn down and needs replacement." If that someone is you, I guess you say, "How do you know? Are you a mechanic? Do you possess the necessary background to make that judgment?" To which I respond... "No... I took the car to several experts and I trust their judgment, so I now share their opinion as to what is wrong with my car. I don't even know what a thingamajig is, but I seriously doubt ten different mechanics are lying to me when they all tell me that's what the trouble is."
I guess after this you take me to your friend who's a mechanic, and he looks under the hood and tells me, "The problem is not your thingamajig, its the invisible gremlin chewing on your thingamabob." To which I reply, "Bullshit." I suppose you fire back with, "This man is a mechanic. You have not looked under the hood of your car and you do not possess the background to question his judgment in any serious way."
I could go on. But do you have an inkling of the point I'm trying to make here?
| 889 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 8:28:55am |
"So very stupid"? That's an overstatement, don't you think. I think it's completely reasonable to take into consideration all viable sources of information. The example you've set up is absurd and dishonest. Everyone here knows that I'm not saying to just consider all points of view equally independent of the source of that point of view or the quality of the point of view. I'm not even saying to consider the point of view of one seemingly crackpot scientists, like say, Copernicus. I understand that might be an unreasonable request to some. What I am saying is that it is foolhardy to dismiss intelligent and experienced scientists who present alternative perspectives. To which some will reply, "Art Robinson is and idiot!" Why is he an idiot? Because he's come to a conclusion different than the one you believe. Does anyone else see a problem with this logic? The fact is, a number of scientists, including the Chief at Nasa, Michael Griffin believe Anthropomorphic global warming is being overstated. "But he's an idiot too!" some will reply. Well here we go again. If you're going to define anyone that disagrees with you as an idiot, then no honest discussion can be had about the science, which is why this debate remains political instead of intellectual. Don't know much about science...but I know enough to listen to all the sides of any debate, and there are many sides and questions to consider concerning global warming.
So yes, "Tigger2005", I get the point that you are trying to make. I just don't believe it to be a very good one.
To Obdicut, yes I am against Israels actions in Palestine. Once again, there are many sides to this debate. From my perspective, the UN sanctioned a theocratic state, gave away land to which it hand no rightful claim and expected the people in existence there to relinquish their right to exist on the land they had cultivated. I am for a free society that recognizes the right of all individuals to exist freely and to keep and trade their property (the produce of their labor) in the absence of violence and threats. Perhaps you disagree. The burden is on you to explain to me why violence is acceptable in the case of the expropriation of land by the state. Morally, I feel opposition to the Israeli state and it's actions is the right and consistent position.
To Charles, I'm sure what you mean by Paulian is not what I actually am. I'm not a Ron Paul "follower". I believe in the non-aggression axiom. It is morally reprehensible to use violence except in self-defense or in defense of others and that violence must be used solely against the aggressors. If you accept that axiom, you must come to the conclusion that a number of things that the US government is currently engaged in is simply wrong, putting the Constitutional issues aside. My point is that Ron Paul doesn't dictate what policies I support or oppose. I don't need to google Ron Paul's position in order to know what is the right position to take. I support Ron Paul because I believe many of his beliefs to be in accordance with mine. He is consistent, principled, and not concerned with special interests groups. And if nothing else, I appreciate that he treats his audience with respect. He presents real ideas for discussion rather than sound bites and trite comments meant to evoke emotional responses rather than reasoned debate. If you doubt that watch the Republican presidential debates of 07 and see the difference. I'm not a "Bushite" who changes their entire philosophy to continue to support the Republicans or an "Obamaite" who acts in kind. If Ron Paul ever strays from philosophical consistency, he will lose my support. He knows this about his supporters and it makes him very proud.
To "darthstar", yes I do hate the policies of Obama. As for the man, I can say little except that he has no integrity. If you hated the policies of Bush, then you must hate the policies of Obama since so many of them are in accord with each other. Even Jon Stewart knows that.
| 890 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 8:29:59am |
Now are their any more personal attacks I need to field or would someone like to talk about the ideas I'm presenting.
| 891 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 8:35:05am |
and yes, reading this back I've noticed the many grammatical errors. I'm an idiot who doesn't know tense. No need to point that out in reply. Point taken.
| 892 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 8:41:33am |
re: #886 Vambo
Government waste is rampant. Why is this individual wrong for pointing out that yet again government promises to do the right thing and does it poorly. Remember all that money that was wasted after Katrina, and the billions of missing dollars that went into the money hole that is Iraq, and how about trillions that gets spent on keeping bases in hundreds of countries around the world where there is no discernable reason for us to be in these countries. I think he makes a good point. Government is incapable of being economically efficient. It isn't their money. They face no losses from their bad decisions, so they don't have to make the good decisions that many of us are forced to make every day.
| 893 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Oct 11, 2010 9:16:14am |
re: #892 reason0911
I repeat my question: Your last name is "Robinson." Any relation to Art up there at the top of this thread?
| 894 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 9:18:44am |
re: #893 Charles
he's white. I'm black...but you never know. I like to think I'm related to Jackie Robinson, but I wouldn't be too upset about sharing genes with a scientist.
| 895 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Oct 11, 2010 9:20:12am |
re: #894 reason0911
he's white. I'm black...but you never know. I like to think I'm related to Jackie Robinson, but I wouldn't be too upset about sharing genes with a scientist.
You're black, and you're a Ron Paul fan?
Wow. Are you aware of the blatantly racist newsletters he published? Do you care?
Paulians are weird.
| 897 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 9:33:24am |
re: #895 Charles
Don't worry. No need to google. I know what was said in the newsletters. I just wondered if you did. First, Ron Paul didn't himself write these newsletters and in the circles I travel in, it is common belief that Lew Rockwell wrote them. He is another man I greatly respect for his perspective. Second, these comments are no different than the sorts of comments I hear from day to day from white, blacks, et al. Everyone is a collectivist thinking you can group people together based on the superficial characteristics. It would be wrong to say that all blacks behave in the way that these newsletters describe. It wouldn't be inaccurate to say that some do, and to give commentary on that basis. These comments tow the line but are in no way indicative of any racism on the part of the author. We all do have our prejudices though, and it takes time and freedom to dispel myth. If you've ever listened to Ron Paul talk, you would think it absurd to call him a racist. He's an individualist and judges each man by the content of his character; not by the color of his skin. There are hundreds, if not thousands of videos and audio recordings of Ron Paul speaking. I challenge you to find one in which he seems to be racist to any degree. I care about racism. I pay little attention to political smears.
| 898 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Oct 11, 2010 9:39:51am |
re: #897 reason0911
Right, I thought so. Typical Paulian behavior.
Apparently, it also doesn't bother you that in his self-teaching course, Arthur Robinson sells a book that compares black Africans to retarded children.
Paulians are very very weird.
| 899 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 9:40:37am |
but whether Ron Paul is racist is neither here nor there. It's as relevant as what type of ice cream he likes. He isn't championing racist policies. He is advocating freedom for all. Privilege for none...even if your ancestors were slaves.
| 900 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 9:42:40am |
re: #898 Charles
lol. that would bother me, if it is true. However, I am not a supporter or believer in his theories and/or policies, to the extent that I know what they are.
If you're going to continue to call me a Paulian you ought to define the word so we all know what you're saying.
| 901 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Oct 11, 2010 9:43:47am |
I love it. A "black" Ron Paul fan who doesn't care if he's a racist, and also admires Lew Freaking Rockwell.
There's another well-known libertarian philosopher you might find to your liking, named David Duke.
| 902 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 9:48:55am |
Why should I care if someone is racist unless they are using violence against me? I'm not required to interact with them and I don't care to. However, if a racist and I share a belief in some fundamental value, I have no problem allying with him to promote that value. I support anyone's right to be a racist even if I do think they are stupid idiots. I've heard of David Duke, only recently, and seen a couple videos of him speaking. I think he does believe his race to be superior but none of what I've heard him advocate is directed at using violence against blacks or any other group so I don't really concern myself with his or any one else's personal preferences.
| 903 |
iossarian Mon, Oct 11, 2010 9:55:36am |
re: #902 reason0911
Do you seriously not care that people are talking about rolling back Civil Rights legislation? That as a black person you would no longer be allowed to dine in certain restaurants, or sit in certain parts of the ballpark, or hold certain types of job?
Seems a little odd to me.
| 904 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:04:53am |
A black Ron Paul/Lew Rockwell fan who never heard of David Duke until recently, and has no problem allying with racists.
eye roll
| 905 |
What, me worry? Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:07:26am |
Ya gotta love the internet where you can be whatever you want to be.
| 906 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:11:52am |
re: #903 iossarian
Well, I consider it this way. If someone doesn't want to serve me food, I don't want to eat their food. I went to Minnesota last year and sat down in a restaurant. I got stares the whole time I was there. That wasn't too bad, but I definitely felt that my waiter might not be okay with me being black. lol. I couldn't eat my meal for fear that he might have spit in it or something. Maybe i was being overly sensitive or fearful. Maybe I was reading too much in to things. Personally if someone is racist, I'd like them to wear there racism on their sleeve. I like knowing who to be weary of.
Now, putting aside my feelings, a business is private property and as such the owners of any business have a right to dispense of the property in any way they like. That includes associating and disassociating with people on whatever basis they would like. A free country does not force people to associate. It creates the environment in order for that to happen naturally. Otherwise you get people like some of my friends who believe all white people are still racists and only interact with them because they are forced to by law. What kind of reconciliation can take place if we have that mindset.
I believe that the civil rights movement was a beautiful thing (not to sound like a hippie). People of all races and economic backgrounds were changing their ideas about race relations and that was a good thing. People were demanding equal application of the law and protection of rights as well as challenging morally those who held on to antiquated ideas about skin color. This was not a movement led by government, I'll remind you. It was a movement of the people. Government came along reluctantly and it took a very long time for the politicians to catch up to the populace. But as is usually the case, instead of the government rescinding it's bad laws which institutionalized racism; those laws that forced people to segregate, it instituted laws that forced people to integrate! It did not give freedom a chance as it should have and the result was a wave of flared up racist sentiments that gave more weight to the racists plight than would have been the case under a free society, for they did have some valid opposition to the civil rights act, where none existed to the civil rights movement.
| 907 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:15:16am |
So the point is that, some aspects of the Civil Rights Act were good and moral and others were not. Government politicians need to be needed. They always need to do something, whether that something is good or bad. Sometimes the answer is for the government to step out of the way.
| 908 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:17:19am |
On the internet and in the real world you should be whoever you are.
"Trust thyself: every heart vibrates to that iron string. Accept the place the divine providence has found for your the society of your contemporaries, the connection of events. Great men have always done so, and confided themselves childlike to the genius of their age, betraying their perception that the absolutely trustworthy was seated at their heart, working through their hands, predominating in all their being. And we are now men, and must accept in the highest mind the same transcendent destiny; and not minors and invalids in a protected corner, not cowards fleeing before a revolution, but guides, redeemers, and benefactors, obeying the Almighty effort, and advancing on Chaos and the Dark."
Emerson
| 911 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:20:15am |
"Be who you are and say what you feel. Those who matter don't mind and those who mind don't matter" Dr. Seuss.
| 912 |
iossarian Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:21:32am |
This is so stupid.
Look, the reason the government passed Civil Rights legislation was precisely because a lot of people did not want to extend equal rights to black people.
Tell me this: if black people are getting lynched, is it right for the government to "get out of the way"?
| 913 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:23:53am |
re: #912 iossarian
Well, that's obviously not what I'm saying is it. The government's role is to protect life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness by extension. The governments role is to make sure that it does not grant privilege to one group of people over any other. It's role is to allow individuals to interact in a safe environment. It has no authority, moral or otherwise, to make people like each other or cooperate with each other.
| 914 |
What, me worry? Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:24:37am |
I can go through this thread and make many comments, particularly how assbackwards your thought process is, but then you think Ron Paul is all that and a bag of chips so....
I really don't care what color you are. What I probably find most offensive is your reluctance to fight for what is morally right in the world, rather if it doesn't concern you personally, why should you worry?
Michael Schwerner, Andrew Goodman and James Chaney, three young men from NY came to Mississippi for one reason. To help Blacks get the vote. Michael and Andrew were Jews. James was Black. What did they care about people they didn't know? You know how much they cared? They were hung for it, lynched by an angry mob.
How that cannot stir or inspire someone only can mean you have no heart.
| 915 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:25:13am |
The government should no more force you to share your property with people you don't like than it should force you to date people you don't like.
| 916 |
iossarian Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:28:36am |
re: #913 reason0911
Maybe you really do believe this. I just think you're hopelessly naive if you think that, in the absence of legislation and government oversight, people won't exploit each other on the basis of race. I mean, take a look at history. People didn't magically just start admitting black kids to white schools in Alabama.
re: #915 reason0911
The government should no more force you to share your property with people you don't like than it should force you to date people you don't like.
Here we go with the "private property" bit. Have you ever actually read John Locke? Or any other "private property" theorists?
| 917 |
What, me worry? Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:28:48am |
re: #913 reason0911
Well, that's obviously not what I'm saying is it. The government's role is to protect life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness by extension. The governments role is to make sure that it does not grant privilege to one group of people over any other. It's role is to allow individuals to interact in a safe environment. It has no authority, moral or otherwise, to make people like each other or cooperate with each other.
You don't seem to understand that it is flesh and blood, quite literally, that rests on the altar before the law. You have to fight for what you think is right or it doesn't happen and you have to continue that fight to keep it right or you most likely will lose it. Hopefully, in our society today, it will be less bloody.
| 918 |
Obdicut Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:28:54am |
re: #915 reason0911
You're arguing against the entirety of civil society, basically.
| 919 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:29:11am |
It should however force it's institutions to treat all people equally since it taxes them equally (or at least if it was fairer it would). Since all individuals are forced to pay taxes, each individual in relation to the state should have the same freedoms and protections. That is wholly different from a private organization which only collects money from it's voluntary members and thus has a right to exclude or include anyone on the basis of it's subjective requirements. For instance, if i open a salon and tout it as a black owned, and operated salon, I ought to be able to exclude Asians from employment. I also think I have a right to deny service to a nazi or ex-slave owner, or a dude without a shirt.
| 920 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:29:34am |
re: #916 iossarian
Here we go with the "private property" bit. Have you ever actually read John Locke? Or any other "private property" theorists?
Probably too busy catching up on those David Duke videos.
| 921 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:30:20am |
re: #918 Obdicut
You're arguing against the entirety of civil society, basically.
At the risk of repeating myself, Paulians are really, really weird.
| 922 |
Obdicut Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:30:55am |
re: #919 reason0911
Do you have anything to support your argument other than assertion?
| 923 |
What, me worry? Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:33:41am |
re: #919 reason0911
It should however force it's institutions to treat all people equally since it taxes them equally (or at least if it was fairer it would). Since all individuals are forced to pay taxes, each individual in relation to the state should have the same freedoms and protections. That is wholly different from a private organization which only collects money from it's voluntary members and thus has a right to exclude or include anyone on the basis of it's subjective requirements. For instance, if i open a salon and tout it as a black owned, and operated salon, I ought to be able to exclude Asians from employment. I also think I have a right to deny service to a nazi or ex-slave owner, or a dude without a shirt.
I get the sense that you see yourself an enlightened individual, but I mostly see you as despicable and I hope and pray you are not indicative of today's young people coming up.
I think I'll go call my nieces. Later folks.
| 924 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:35:19am |
re: #916 iossarian
I'm not naive. I'm looking at the actual history that led to the civil rights legislation. Was it the government who finally said to the people "hey, segregation is bad. you should stop doing that" or was it the other way around. To say that attitudes weren't changing; that the trend wasn't toward desegregation is to completely ignore what actually took place. Would it have been an overnight thing? Of course not. The civil rights movement wasn't an overnight phenomenon. It would have taken a sustained movement to make racism economically inviable. That was occurring. It's called the boycott. I'm saying violence shouldn't be used against non-violent actors even if you think your end is desired.
I've read some locke and do believe in his theory of property rights as I understand it; that is, that property rights come from the mixing of ones labor with the soil, so to speak.
| 925 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:36:56am |
re: #922 Obdicut
great question. which assertions do you mean?
| 926 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:38:12am |
re: #923 marjoriemoon
despicable. why? I'm not advocating violence. I'm not advocating selfishness. I'm only advocating freedom. You can disagree with me without hating me you know. Hatred always leads to violence and many of us are trying to avoid that as the route to real change.
| 927 |
Obdicut Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:38:40am |
re: #925 reason0911
great question. which assertions do you mean?
Your assertion you have the right to have racist hiring policies.
| 928 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:40:09am |
I don't know if I think I'm enlightened. I don't know what you mean by that. I just think this is the way to exist with other people. It's the same sort of stuff we all teach our kids. Don't hit others. If someone doesn't like you, stay away from them. Lead by example. Don't be a follower. Do the right thing. Enlightened thinking? probably not. Self-evident? At least to me.
| 929 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:42:30am |
re: #906 reason0911
Well, I consider it this way. If someone doesn't want to serve me food, I don't want to eat their food. I went to Minnesota last year and sat down in a restaurant. I got stares the whole time I was there. That wasn't too bad, but I definitely felt that my waiter might not be okay with me being black. lol. I couldn't eat my meal for fear that he might have spit in it or something. Maybe i was being overly sensitive or fearful. Maybe I was reading too much in to things. Personally if someone is racist, I'd like them to wear there racism on their sleeve. I like knowing who to be weary of.
Now, putting aside my feelings, a business is private property and as such the owners of any business have a right to dispense of the property in any way they like. That includes associating and disassociating with people on whatever basis they would like. A free country does not force people to associate. It creates the environment in order for that to happen naturally. Otherwise you get people like some of my friends who believe all white people are still racists and only interact with them because they are forced to by law. What kind of reconciliation can take place if we have that mindset.
I believe that the civil rights movement was a beautiful thing (not to sound like a hippie). People of all races and economic backgrounds were changing their ideas about race relations and that was a good thing. People were demanding equal application of the law and protection of rights as well as challenging morally those who held on to antiquated ideas about skin color. This was not a movement led by government, I'll remind you. It was a movement of the people. Government came along reluctantly and it took a very long time for the politicians to catch up to the populace. But as is usually the case, instead of the government rescinding it's bad laws which institutionalized racism; those laws that forced people to segregate, it instituted laws that forced people to integrate! It did not give freedom a chance as it should have and the result was a wave of flared up racist sentiments that gave more weight to the racists plight than would have been the case under a free society, for they did have some valid opposition to the civil rights act, where none existed to the civil rights movement.
////The Invisible Hand of the market can cure discrimination!
| 930 |
iossarian Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:45:21am |
re: #924 reason0911
You say it would have taken a sustained movement to make racism economically inviable. The problem is, racism is inherently "economically viable" for the majority: if you have a subservient minority population you can exploit them for cheap labor.
This is why the so-called free market is not (and never has been) a driver for social equality.
| 931 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:46:14am |
re: #927 Obdicut
The capital I use to create my business is mine. It is mine because I have brought it into existence through the use of my body. My body is mine, therefore the produce of my body is mine as well. The apple off the tree example is a good one. If I pick an apple from a tree in from land that is unowned, whose apple is it? Reasonable people will reply that this apple is mine. No one else has laid claim to it and I have used my body to remove it from the tree. I have mixed my labor with this thing from nature so that it may now be consumed. No one else has a right to this thing which my body has altered from it's natural state. Hopefully you agree up to this point. If it is my apple, then I have a right to command this apple as I have a right to command my body. The same applies for my business. I could choose to hoard my money and not open the business. You would be fine with this, but if I say I want to use my wealth in a way you don't agree, you claim to have some right in the decision making process. From where is your right to make decisions about my property derived?
| 932 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:47:59am |
re: #919 reason0911
It should however force it's institutions to treat all people equally since it taxes them equally (or at least if it was fairer it would). Since all individuals are forced to pay taxes, each individual in relation to the state should have the same freedoms and protections. That is wholly different from a private organization which only collects money from it's voluntary members and thus has a right to exclude or include anyone on the basis of it's subjective requirements. For instance, if i open a salon and tout it as a black owned, and operated salon, I ought to be able to exclude Asians from employment. I also think I have a right to deny service to a nazi or ex-slave owner, or a dude without a shirt.
So you want a flat tax? Would that be more fair?
Yeah taxing Bill Gates as much as me the kid not even a year out of college working in a start up for sweat equity and the covering of travel expenses.
"You keep using that word, I don' think it means what you think it means."
| 933 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:48:50am |
re: #929 jamesfirecat
If by invisible hand you mean protesting and boycotting, then yes it can. Businesses meet the demands of the consumers and most businesses want to have as many consumers as possible. Perhaps some racists would think otherwise but he would be forced to compete in pricing and for resources with other businesses that did not share his handicap. Eventually he would fail or be forced to change his position. This is the general case. A racist here or there could survive I'm sure, but this is certainly no reason to use violence against the entire populace.
| 934 |
Obdicut Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:50:50am |
re: #931 reason0911
It is mine because I have brought it into existence through the use of my body.
This is not true, except in the rarest of cases. In cases where it is true-- where you have, for example, dug up a diamond, your ownership of that diamond is dependent on having a civil society that recognizes the concept of ownership and protects it through laws.
My body is mine, therefore the produce of my body is mine as well.
This is demonstrably false. If you work at a factory, you do not own what you produce. You produce it in concert with the owner of capital. Likewise, in civil society, you produce what you do in concert with that society, with the laws, system of education, systems of redress, and infrastructure.
If I pick an apple from a tree in from land that is unowned, whose apple is it?
There is no unowned land-- but even here, you disprove your own argument.
| 935 |
Obdicut Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:51:13am |
re: #933 reason0911
Why are you ignoring historical truth to make this argument?
| 936 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:51:15am |
re: #931 reason0911
The capital I use to create my business is mine. It is mine because I have brought it into existence through the use of my body. My body is mine, therefore the produce of my body is mine as well. The apple off the tree example is a good one. If I pick an apple from a tree in from land that is unowned, whose apple is it? Reasonable people will reply that this apple is mine. No one else has laid claim to it and I have used my body to remove it from the tree. I have mixed my labor with this thing from nature so that it may now be consumed. No one else has a right to this thing which my body has altered from it's natural state. Hopefully you agree up to this point. If it is my apple, then I have a right to command this apple as I have a right to command my body. The same applies for my business. I could choose to hoard my money and not open the business. You would be fine with this, but if I say I want to use my wealth in a way you don't agree, you claim to have some right in the decision making process. From where is your right to make decisions about my property derived?
"Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?"
| 937 |
iossarian Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:51:24am |
re: #931 reason0911
Locke's theory of private property is very nice, but he justifies it ethically by the claim that we all have the opportunity to make it on our own (in his writings, he says that anyone can move to underpopulated North America and start a farm, which in 17th-century England may have been true).
When you try to apply his argument in today's USA, you quickly run into the problem that there are lots of people who don't have that opportunity, or for whom it is significantly restricted. And, tellingly, the only extent to which they do have it is via government intervention (most obviously through the public school system).
But in magical free-market private property land, all is well (except for the slaves, but they're not really "people" like me and, to a slightly lesser extent, you).
| 938 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:57:01am |
re: #933 reason0911
If by invisible hand you mean protesting and boycotting, then yes it can. Businesses meet the demands of the consumers and most businesses want to have as many consumers as possible. Perhaps some racists would think otherwise but he would be forced to compete in pricing and for resources with other businesses that did not share his handicap. Eventually he would fail or be forced to change his position. This is the general case. A racist here or there could survive I'm sure, but this is certainly no reason to use violence against the entire populace.
You just equated forcing people to integrate with using violence....
Right.....
| 939 |
garhighway Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:58:28am |
re: #931 reason0911
The capital I use to create my business is mine. It is mine because I have brought it into existence through the use of my body. My body is mine, therefore the produce of my body is mine as well. The apple off the tree example is a good one. If I pick an apple from a tree in from land that is unowned, whose apple is it? Reasonable people will reply that this apple is mine. No one else has laid claim to it and I have used my body to remove it from the tree. I have mixed my labor with this thing from nature so that it may now be consumed. No one else has a right to this thing which my body has altered from it's natural state. Hopefully you agree up to this point. If it is my apple, then I have a right to command this apple as I have a right to command my body. The same applies for my business. I could choose to hoard my money and not open the business. You would be fine with this, but if I say I want to use my wealth in a way you don't agree, you claim to have some right in the decision making process. From where is your right to make decisions about my property derived?
Leaving aside your repetitive and somewhat creepy comments about your body, this is really pretty simple. The price you pay for membership in a civilized society is that you grant that society a license to tax you and restrict your activities. Without that license, civilized society cannot exist.
The scope of that license is limited by the society's rules and by the need for a predetermined degree of common consent. So here, in this country, it is the constitution, which forbids taking your property without due process of law, but by extension permits it when due process exists.
Other societies do it differently, but all have the same basic concept. If you want to live in a libertarian/anarchist utopia, you will have to go somewhere completely outside the rule of law.
| 940 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:58:32am |
re: #930 iossarian
Exploitation theory is unconvincing to me. In a free market (which does not exist and hasn't as long as any of us has been alive, if ever, where a state existed) people make decisions that they believe will benefit them. If they enter into a contract to sell services for wages, they do so because the alternative would have been worse. This is especially true for unskilled, and uneducated workers. However, if given the opportunity in a free society, these workers are able to move up the economic ladder as they gain skills and experience. If they become unhappy with the wages offered they are free to move elsewhere where they experience will be compensated. Other companies desiring more skilled workers for better output will offer more in wages and so wages rise as experience rises. This is obvious. To say that without the government to force employers to pay a minimum wage, the world would be in poverty is completely inaccurate. I don't make the minimum wage? Do you? My employer isn't forced to pay me what he does. he pays me because he appreciates my expertise. That is the way wages work. The minimum wage actually creates unemployment for unskilled workers; that is , minorities, the young, and the disabled.
| 941 |
garhighway Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:00:18am |
re: #940 reason0911
The minimum wage actually creates unemployment for unskilled workers; that is , minorities, the young, and the disabled.
I think that quantitatively that turns out not to be true in any meaningful sense. Go beyond the anecdotal and see if you can find any real data showing the effect you describe.
| 942 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:02:34am |
re: #932 jamesfirecat
Bill Gates probably gets a ton of privilege from the government. He pays for it I suppose. Personally, I don't believe anyone should be able to force me to give them anything, especially for services that I do not desire or that I believe I can acquire elsewhere for less money and with better quality. But assuming that taxation is okay, and that no group, rich or poor, is granted any privilege, then yes I do believe that each individual should pay his share for the services provided equally, or at least to the extent that he uses those services. I'm sure Bill Gates gets a lot less use out of public transportation than the poor but he pays a lot more for it. But this isn't a good example because he gets government protection from competition which keeps him rich.
| 944 |
Obdicut Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:05:41am |
re: #942 reason0911
I'm sure Bill Gates gets a lot less use out of public transportation than the poor but he pays a lot more for it.
This is because you don't think about the ramifications of things.
How many of Gates' employees are able to commute to work because of public transportation?
| 945 |
iossarian Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:05:54am |
re: #940 reason0911
Exploitation theory is unconvincing to me. In a free market (which does not exist and hasn't as long as any of us has been alive, if ever, where a state existed) people make decisions that they believe will benefit them.
This is funny. Exploitation theory is unconvincing? It's not a theory - people were slaves just a few years ago in the USA. What's your alternative to "exploitation theory"? Slavery-never-happened theory?
And you then appear to say that the state prevents a free market. If that is really what you're claiming, I'd like to hear some examples of where a free market has flourished in the absence of a state. It would be interesting to see whether those examples include societies that permitted slavery.
Seriously, try to bring some intellectual rigor to the debate here.
| 946 |
iossarian Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:06:58am |
re: #944 Obdicut
This is because you don't think about the ramifications of things.
Standard libertarian procedure (except for Bloodstar).
| 947 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:11:12am |
re: #934 Obdicut
this is always the case except where theft, fraud or government involvement is the case. Every commercial thing in existence has been plucked from it's natural state. Absent government, force, or fraud the ownership of these things are transferred consensually.
The case of the factory is very different. The factory worker has agreed to relinquish his right to the produce of his labor for a number of reasons. the first being that he is mixing his labor with resources owned by others and he has agreed to take a wage as compensation. He does this because of something called "Time preference". He feels that the compensation he receives for his labor is preferential to saving and building his own resources to work upon.
Personally, I have produced nothing in concert with "society". No one can take any credit for the art I create or the services I provide. If you believe so, make more than an assertion; Explain how and why.
"There is no unowned land". Yes, you are right. The governments of the world have claimed it all for themselves making you completely dependent upon them.
| 948 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:11:44am |
re: #935 Obdicut
I don't know what you mean. elaborate...
| 949 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:13:09am |
re: #936 jamesfirecat
yes he is, and he is entitled to determine how much he will accept for the sweat off his brow.
| 950 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:15:15am |
re: #937 iossarian
you can solve that problem by asking your government to stop claiming all the land that it sees. It's a system of control. The problem isn't the theory. It's that government forcefully claims to own everything leaving nothing for us. That wasn't always the case.
| 951 |
jaunte Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:15:53am |
Libertarian fish don't think they need water, and don't know they swim in it.
| 952 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:17:10am |
re: #938 jamesfirecat
yes, it is the same thing. Saying I will kidnap you, ie jail you if you do not do this thing that I think is right is a threat of violence. Shooting people who resist doing the thing you think is right is perpetrating the violence. same thing, but we get so used to using euphemisms.
| 953 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:25:22am |
Leaving aside your repetitive and somewhat creepy comments about your body, this is really pretty simple. The price you pay for membership in a civilized society is that you grant that society a license to tax you and restrict your activities. Without that license, civilized society cannot exist.
The scope of that license is limited by the society's rules and by the need for a predetermined degree of common consent. So here, in this country, it is the constitution, which forbids taking your property without due process of law, but by extension permits it when due process exists.
Other societies do it differently, but all have the same basic concept. If you want to live in a libertarian/anarchist utopia, you will have to go somewhere completely outside the rule of law.
Ah. Social contract theory...thoroughly destroyed intellectually many many years ago. By definition a contract requires the parties thereto to have voluntarily entered into agreement. No such thing has happened for the lion share of Americans, if any. Please read Lysander Spooners "No Treason; the constitution of no authority." The arguments are laid out very well. Essentially what you're saying is that by the nature of having been born I have relinquished my right to make decisions for myself and am bound act in accordance with the laws of some majority be reason of power of force. I have no desire to participate in your "civilized" society. I would like to organize with people on the basis of our beliefs and shared values to create communities which voluntarily cooperate with each other. What right have you to ask anything of me but non-violence?
I don't want to live in a utopia. They do not exist. I just want to be free to make decisions for myself and to disassociate when I see society going off a cliff. I have no desire to go with it and I can't see by what right you can force me...other than that you are the majority. In that case, everything that a majority ever did was justified. Slavery, the iraq war, etc...
| 954 |
Obdicut Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:30:56am |
re: #948 reason0911
I don't know what you mean. elaborate...
Historically, racist sales policies-- including charging more to one race than another-- have flourished, rather than being quashed by the force of the market. You are ignoring this. Why?
| 955 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:32:42am |
re: #941 garhighway
a priori
Wages are prices. Business owners pay wages to their employees because of the added value those employees bring to the business operation. For instance, if a worker can add $27 in value, an owner will hire that person at a wage at or below that rate, but never above. In the case of low skilled workers, the amount of value added is a lot less. lets say $5/hour. If the minimum wage is set at $7 per hour, then to hire that worker the owner will have to be willing to take a loss of $2/hour. Why would he do this? Would you? I wouldn't. Empirically you can see this by the disappearance of elevator operators, move theater ushers and many other jobs that used to be done by the young and unskilled. those jobs no longer exist because it is not economically viable to keep these people employed at the minimum wage rates set by government. If you must pay $7/hour, then as a business owner you will be more likely to hire someone who has experience, is older, and who is more educated, which has a negative effects on the groups previously mentioned and minorities who are victims of a failing public school system.
| 956 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:33:30am |
re: #943 Obdicut
In a society with a state, we expect government to uphold contracts. It's one of their directives.
| 957 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:36:28am |
re: #944 Obdicut
Many I'm sure. But do you seriously believe that if his employees couldn't use public transportation he would just shut down his doors. He'd probably have to pay them more, or create offices in more accessible locations, or create a private busing system (like many college campuses do) or something like that. The options are limitless. But I think your point is this; He's getting a subsidy from government (we are subsidizing the costs of his workers employees) so he ought to pay more in taxes. I get that and see the logic in it. I just think it would be better not to grant him the subsidy in the first place.
| 959 |
iossarian Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:39:18am |
re: #955 reason0911
That's not what was asked. You were asked to provide evidence that a minimum wage has increased unemployment in the past.
A priori conclusions about economic outcomes are notoriously fallible, due to the vast amount of simplification that has to happen in order to produce any kind of tractable model.
In any case, here's a counter-example: assume that there is a country with a population of 10 and only one commodity (food, which is grown). One man owns 100% of the land and pays subsistence wages to the other 9, who work on his farm. They produce 90 units of food a day (10 each), and receive 1 each, which is what they need to survive. The owner consumes the other 81 units.
If an external force institutes a minimum wage of 2 units of food per day, the owner will still employ all 9 workers. They will receive more, and he will retain less, but unemployment does not go up.
So that's where a priori arguments about minimum wages get you.
| 960 |
iossarian Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:40:03am |
re: #957 reason0911
Of course, we would all be better off if we had to walk to work on rutted dirt tracks. How could I have failed to spot this simple economic truth?
| 961 |
Obdicut Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:40:23am |
re: #957 reason0911
He benefits, and his workers benefit, and the economy in general benefits. All companies that employ people benefit.
It is infrastructure, and you are calling it a subsidy.
That is nuts.
| 962 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:43:41am |
re: #945 iossarian
This is funny. Exploitation theory is unconvincing? It's not a theory - people were slaves just a few years ago in the USA. What's your alternative to "exploitation theory"? Slavery-never-happened theory?
And you then appear to say that the state prevents a free market. If that is really what you're claiming, I'd like to hear some examples of where a free market has flourished in the absence of a state. It would be interesting to see whether those examples include societies that permitted slavery.
Seriously, try to bring some intellectual rigor to the debate here.
Being a slave and a wage earner are two different things. In the former you have no choice but to work and give up your property versus the latter in which you choose to work or not based on the benefits you believe you will gain from this employment.
Slavery has always everywhere it existed on a large scale been endorsed by the state. I'm not saying the state necessarily prevents a free enterprise. I'm saying that it historically has and is currently preventing free enterprise. Now as for examples of free societies that flourished in the absence of the state, Somalia is one. Southern Somalia, not to be confused with Northern Somalia where the US government along with other supernational entities are supporting the installation of a central authority.
From Wiki:
Before the Islamic Courts Union took control, large parts of southern Somalia were effectively functioning without a central government. However, an economic survey by the World Bank found that distribution of wealth in the country was more equitable, and the extent of extreme poverty was lower than that found in nominally more stable West African nations. According to the same paper, although southern Somalia was effectively operating without a federal government before the rise to prominence of the Islamic Courts Union, it was not an anarchist society in the sense that society was more or less chaotic than organized non-coercively.[12] Despite this, a libertarian think tank reported that living standards in Somalia increased – in absolute terms, relative to the pre-Somali Civil War era, and relative to other nations in Africa – during this period.[13] Economist Peter Leeson attributes the rather astounding increase in economic activity[14] since the rise of statelessness to the security in life, liberty and property provided by Somali customary law — the Xeer — in most parts of Somalia, which insures for a relative free market.
| 963 |
Obdicut Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:44:55am |
re: #962 reason0911
And what about the exploitative period at the beginning of the turn of the century, with child labor, 14 hour, six day work weeks, with no worker safety and workers literally losing limbs and dying without recompense, working machines?
Was that at all exploitative?
| 964 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:45:12am |
Har.
The ultimate Paulian's paradise -- Somalia.
You couldn't make this up.
| 965 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:46:48am |
re: #954 Obdicut
First give me the specific history. When and where? But, honestly if blacks were being charged more by some racists, how is that relevant. They weren't forced to buy and if the market was truly free they would be open to start their own businesses and sell to both blacks and whites with "fairness". People with brown skin don't need to be accepted by people with "white" skin in order to prosper. There are many examples of this in history.
| 968 |
shutdown Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:47:37am |
re: #962 reason0911
Quoting Wiki for any structured discussion or using it as founded "proof" for anything beyond the existence of an opinion is an automatic fail.
I was going to engage you in this thread, but now I think I will walk my dogs, instead.
| 969 |
Obdicut Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:49:02am |
re: #965 reason0911
But, honestly if blacks were being charged more by some racists, how is that relevant.
Because you have insisted that the free market would tend to push people to sell to the largest market, and ignored that even when selling to a larger market, inequity could still exist-- such as charging higher prices, selling inferior quality, etc.
| 970 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:49:15am |
re: #962 reason0911
I hope you didn't click a link to get to Wikipedia -- you know there are viruses all over those links, and you probably have them now. You may have to get a new computer.
| 972 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:52:56am |
re: #965 reason0911
First give me the specific history. When and where? But, honestly if blacks were being charged more by some racists, how is that relevant. They weren't forced to buy and if the market was truly free they would be open to start their own businesses and sell to both blacks and whites with "fairness". People with brown skin don't need to be accepted by people with "white" skin in order to prosper. There are many examples of this in history.
You really don't know shit about US history, do you?
I recommend an excellent young adult novel called "Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry" if you want to get some insight into the store issue and how it worked in real life.
| 973 |
Varek Raith Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:53:06am |
Plenty for everyone.
Image: popcorn.jpg
| 974 |
shutdown Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:54:13am |
Show's over. Move along please; nothing to see here.
| 975 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 11:59:21am |
re: #959 iossarian
Perhaps I made my point incorrectly. The minimum wage produces unemployment in certain groups, but I believe it increases unemployment rates over all because less workers will be employed if operation costs are higher. This is simple economics it seems to me. I have less money, so I can higher less people.
This is a terrible example. You're assuming no operating cost. No incentive to invest. You have a caricature in your mind of a business owner who keeps all the profits to himself and gobbles it up leaving none for anyone else. In the real word, a priori, and empirically, this example is just too far fetched to be relevant, but yes, you are correct that if the workers are able to produce more than 1 bushel a day and the minimum rises to 2 bushels, no one will be fired. But that doesn't address the problem I stated, and that problem is that if any of those workers is unable to create at least 2 bushels, he'll be fired, and in a worse of position than before the minimum wage was institued.
| 976 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:00:03pm |
re: #960 iossarian
I don't believe that's what I said. You need to prove how that would be the case?
| 977 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:03:49pm |
re: #961 Obdicut
It is subsidy. I'm not denying some benefit. I'm saying that the benefit is gained by violence and that the pandora's box that is opened because of that acceptance of violence hurts society more than it helps. Doubt this? Ask someone on the receiving end of the bombs we send over to Pakistan, or Iraq, or Somalia, or Peru, and elsewhere in the world. I'm also saying that the subsidy causes a misallocation of resources because costs are usually excessive when the government is spending our money versus when it is being employed on the free market where companies must rely on voluntary compensation for their work.
| 978 |
iossarian Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:08:11pm |
re: #975 reason0911
Well, why don't you state clearly the model that you use to predict that the minimum wage causes unemployment, and I will then pick apart the assumptions that underly it.
Again, if you can't find actual examples of it happening, it's rather implausible to state that it must be a priori true. Conversely, if it is true, then it will be easy to find such examples (as there are lots of societies that have, at various times, instituted a minimum wage).
| 979 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:08:41pm |
re: #963 Obdicut
Compared with today it seems exploitative but when one is considering history they must not compare the past with the present, rather it must be compared with the history that came before it. Children were not being exploited. They were working and providing aid to their families. Had they not been working, many would have starved to death, become vagabonds, or have resorted to prostitution as had happened in the past. Children working allowed for the upward movement of families that makes it possible for my children not to have to work today, though with the poor economic policies of the government and the Fed, that may change.
| 981 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:10:19pm |
re: #964 Charles
No, it's not a paradise at all. but it is an example of how business can operate without government. Please read about Southern Somalia and give a thoughtful critique. Believe me, there are many to be made. You just don't know much about Southern Somalia to make them.
| 982 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:10:54pm |
and of course when you think of somalia, you're thinking of Northern somalia, you know, the place where there is government.
| 983 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:12:02pm |
re: #968 imp_62
please give me your alternative source of information.
| 984 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:12:33pm |
re: #971 jaunte
I know what a metaphor is. I'm asking you to explain how it fits.
| 985 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:14:15pm |
re: #972 SanFranciscoZionist
ahahahahaha. Did you seriously just suggest that I read a novel to get real history. I'm sure I'm not the only one laughing here. this isn't an insult. I actually hope I'm laughing with you.
In any event, that book was required reading when I was a kid. It's anecdotal.
| 987 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:17:28pm |
re: #949 reason0911
yes he is, and he is entitled to determine how much he will accept for the sweat off his brow.
Who knows, maybe the next face you see in rapture might be a familiar one!
| 988 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:17:38pm |
re: #978 iossarian
I'll ask my fiance to create the mathematic model. He's good with that sort of stuff.
| 989 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:18:27pm |
re: #980 iossarian
clearly that's not what I said, but whatever you can do to avoid arguing your point right...
| 993 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:22:54pm |
So, to conclude;
I'm not an evil pro-business, fascist, right wing nut who hates muslims any more than you're a commie hippie who wants to destroy the country. We are all real people with real ideas and every side deserves to be heard and debated. This should be fun for you. Sharing ideas IS fun if one doesn't take it personally. We can all figure out how best to run our own lives and how to live peacefully with each other. That can only happen if we respect that others hae different perspectives and if we allow each other the freedom to explore the consequences of our ideas.
| 994 |
iossarian Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:23:09pm |
re: #989 reason0911
I've already given you a counterexample to your minimum wage claim, and you have neither given a real-world instance to support your side, nor elaborated your own economic model.
Furthermore it has been pointed out in many ways that, in the absence of enforceable laws promoting equity, people are happy to exploit minorities. You have given no real world examples of how exploitation is diminished in the absence of such regulation other than Somalia, which is not entirely credible, at least in the sense that I don't think many people are clamoring to live there.
re: #991 reason0911
I don't know what this means.
I think that's just the start of it.
| 995 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:23:14pm |
Ah, Somalia, a veritable utopia for the advocates of laissez-faire economics and aggressive entrepreneurship. I was there in 1993.
At one point, our unit was approached by a Somali hoping to cash in on some recent unpleasantness. He told us he knew where the severed head of a UN soldier was being displayed by an enterprising individual who was charging people the equivalent of 31 cents to view it. He said he could take us to it but demanded a reward. We were somewhat accustomed to Somali habits of acquisition by this time and there was a standing reward of 100 dollars for the return of human remains. The would-be broker would not accept this. He demanded five thousand dollars, American, for the information. (Our fiat currency is still held in high regard even in free economic zones like Mogadishu.)
An officer more senior than I pulled his pistol, pointed it directly between the would-be guide's eyes and said, "I have a better plan, asshole. Take us to it and you get to keep your own head." The negotiating phase thus completed, we proceeded with considerable caution to the indicated place of business, a small stand in a local market. The proprietor did not want to surrender his most important capital asset and greeted us with AK fire. We dispatched him to the next world along with several of his hired helpers, retrieved the head, and returned to our own business address.
| 996 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:25:45pm |
re: #995 Shiplord Kirel
Where in Somalia were you stationed...oh and why were you there? I don't remember any aggression toward the US on the part of the Somali people.
| 997 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:27:03pm |
re: #995 Shiplord Kirel
Now that's some free enterprise for your ass!
| 998 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:27:15pm |
again, not a utopia. just an example that the world continues to exist without government and that a world without government can improve upon life to some degree. Please don't overstate my views. I think I've done just fine at stating them exactly.
| 999 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:29:11pm |
re: #991 reason0911
I don't know what this means.
It means that if you throw out the government as we have it, you best beware that the rich people don't form a new one designed with their aims solely in mind.
Would you kindly consider playing Bioshock sometime?
| 1000 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:30:44pm |
re: #985 reason0911
ahahahahaha. Did you seriously just suggest that I read a novel to get real history. I'm sure I'm not the only one laughing here. this isn't an insult. I actually hope I'm laughing with you.
In any event, that book was required reading when I was a kid. It's anecdotal.
Something that is admittedly fiction will contain more Truth than something pretending to be non-fiction.
I pondered downdinging you but I remembered my FIL. You aren't worth the effort. You see, he grew up in a company town, the cotton mills of Alabama, and his middle management father was paid in script until the Government made him get paid with currency. My FIL went on to a long life organizing for the United Brotherhood of Carpenters and did more good in one day on the job than you are likely to do in your whole life. Amen.
| 1001 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:31:04pm |
re: #995 Shiplord Kirel
ahahahahahahahaha. Point proven. You, an agent of the state, are in a country you have no right being in, and then you use threats of violence to force someone to take you somewhere, and then you kill them when they don't cooperate. Hmmm. How is this violence perpetrated by a state agent the fault of a free market?
As for the remains of the UN soldier, what is the UN soldier doing in Somalia. Oh that's right. Trying to install a central government. point proven.
| 1002 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:32:15pm |
re: #999 jamesfirecat
agreed. I don't think you throw it out on a whim. You look at the flaws inherent in the system and you attempt to reduce them. The government's ability to initiate violence is the biggest flaw and needs to be corrected.
| 1004 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:34:10pm |
Paulian comes out in favor of charging money to view severed heads. Film at 11.
| 1005 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:35:29pm |
re: #1004 Charles
What do you mean by "Paulian"? I didn't come out in support of it at all. Please quote me, if I'm mistaken.
| 1006 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:35:53pm |
re: #1004 Charles
You keep avoiding this question? I have no idea why...
| 1007 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:36:01pm |
re: #1002 reason0911
agreed. I don't think you throw it out on a whim. You look at the flaws inherent in the system and you attempt to reduce them. The government's ability to initiate violence is the biggest flaw and needs to be corrected.
What steps would you take to make the US a better nation?
If you have a plan I'd like to see it, if you don't have one well that speaks for itself....
| 1008 |
iossarian Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:36:13pm |
So far:
- child labor "a good way for families to get ahead"
- Somalia "actually not as bad as it's made out to be"
- racist hiring policies "not a big problem since you can always take your business elsewhere"
| 1009 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:38:10pm |
re: #1001 reason0911
ahahahahahahahaha. Point proven. You, an agent of the state, are in a country you have no right being in, and then you use threats of violence to force someone to take you somewhere, and then you kill them when they don't cooperate. Hmmm. How is this violence perpetrated by a state agent the fault of a free market?
As for the remains of the UN soldier, what is the UN soldier doing in Somalia. Oh that's right. Trying to install a central government. point proven.
Not proven. The free market did not operate in Somalia, the absence of a viable state prevented it from operating and force was the only law. Food shipments were being hijacked, people were starving, and the UN stepped in to restore the protections needed for beneficial economic activity. That this was poorly executed and ultimately failed does not change the original objectives or the conditions that prevailed at the time. We killed the stand owner because he shot at us rather than return an item he had no right to possess.
| 1010 |
Reginald Perrin Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:39:30pm |
re: #1004 Charles
Minus 439 and rapidly pummeling. Can we keep him and play until he reaches minus one thousand?
///
| 1011 |
jaunte Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:39:39pm |
re: #1008 iossarian
The Bellum omnium contra omnes is apparently ok, as long as government stays out of the picture.
| 1012 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:43:30pm |
re: #1007 jamesfirecat
The government should shut down many if not all of the bases it has around the world. They number above 800. This would go a long way in securing this country by not causing ill-will. It would also so trillions of dollars every year.
The government should stop inflating the money supply. Inflation is a regressive tax that targets the poor. It withdraw the monopoly privilege it has granted the fed forcing it to operate and compete for our business and acceptance.
The government should pass the freedom of currency act which allows us to trade in whatever we would like to use as currency which would include but not be limited to gold and silver. It should not tax the purchase of gold and silver.
The government should not infringe on the right the young to opt out of social security fund which is bankrupt.
the government should repeal the minimum wage during this economic depression so that prices can fluctuate instead of people losing their jobs completely.
there should be a tax moratorium which will allow people to pay down debt, and direct funs into productive sectors of the economy that meet the needs of the people rather than directing those funds into politically favored enterprises.
| 1013 |
What, me worry? Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:43:48pm |
re: #998 reason0911
again, not a utopia. just an example that the world continues to exist without government and that a world without government can improve upon life to some degree. Please don't overstate my views. I think I've done just fine at stating them exactly.
Why yes, you have. You've stated them rather well. Trouble is everyone here thinks you're a little crazy.
A world without government. Where has this ever worked where there are more than 100 people living together? 50 people? 10 people?
I called you despicable because you lack compassion and compassion and/or empathy is an admirable trait in my eyes.
| 1014 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:45:00pm |
re: #1013 marjoriemoon
I'm not advocating a world without government today or even in my lifetime. I'm advocating a world where government isn't aggressive.
| 1015 |
Reginald Perrin Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:48:24pm |
re: #1014 reason0911
What are you getting out of trolling this blog, is there some sort of cheap thrill?
| 1016 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:50:51pm |
re: #1012 reason0911
And then we can have the same freedom and personal liberty they enjoy in beautiful Somalia! A severed head for every small business entrepreneur, unencumbered by evil statists. And people could pay to see their severed heads with whatever currency they choose!
Sounds almost too good to be true.
| 1017 |
What, me worry? Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:52:13pm |
re: #1014 reason0911
I'm not advocating a world without government today or even in my lifetime. I'm advocating a world where government isn't aggressive.
Not what you said. You said, "Just an example that the world continues to exist without government and that a world without government can improve upon life to some degree."
We should have ignored Hitler then?
| 1018 |
Gus Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:52:47pm |
re: #1014 reason0911
I'm not advocating a world without government today or even in my lifetime. I'm advocating a world where government isn't aggressive.
You're very naive. A) How would you "enforce" such a concept through osmosis? B) Without government you get tribalism and other human forms of organization -- most of which have been proven to be far more oppressive than the governments you fear. C) Many of the resulting tribes are formed around war lordships.
Anarchy does not work.
| 1019 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:53:07pm |
You don't know me well enough to say that I lack compassion but I can understand why you might think that. Sometimes these ideas are counter-intuitive, but having grown up with two drug addicted parents, homeless for sometime, and a member of the community that so many people wish to help, I think I'm qualified to comment as to whether the policies intended to help, actually do. I do not believe they help. I believe my community has been stifled. The economic policies are one thing, but most despicable is the mindset that government creates in the people that it helps. It spreads a feeling of hopelessness, where it should be promoting self reliance. It tells you that you can't when it should tell you that you can. Any one who supports the policies of big government should be ashamed that it took Ron Paul saying that I could to believe it. The government never did anything for me but make me feel like we needed it. I know longer feel that way and I believe I've come to an informed conclusion. I'm sorry if any of you still disagree, but I'll ask that if you care about people, you become informed about economics, philosophy and history. That's how you really help people. Not by just doing what feels right and hoping for the best, but by educating yourself and allowing people to find their own way, even if that causes some short term pain. That isn't to say that I don't expect you all to be donating to charities...to your local churches and neighborhood organizations. That's necessary, to help mitigate the problems that we'll all face from time to time, but I'll tell you this much; I want my charity if I ever need it again to be voluntary and moral.
| 1020 |
jaunte Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:53:31pm |
re: #1017 marjoriemoon
No, if we just listen to the advocates for non-aggressive government, there can be not Hitlers! Just single, head-displaying entrepreneurs.
| 1021 |
Varek Raith Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:54:05pm |
re: #1017 marjoriemoon
Yes, he would.
I had this convo with him/her earlier last week.
| 1022 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:54:31pm |
re: #1015 Reginald Perrin
I hope someone listens. I'm just asking for my freedom.
| 1023 |
What, me worry? Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:55:34pm |
re: #1018 Gus 802
You're very naive. A) How would you "enforce" such a concept through osmosis? B) Without government you get tribalism and other human forms of organization -- most of which have been proven to be far more oppressive than the governments you fear. C) Many of the resulting tribes are formed around war lordships.
Anarchy does not work.
No government. Ok. No public roads, no parks, no hospitals, no police, no fire, no schools. I guess if you ARE pining away for Somalia, this is the way to do it!
Hmm... wonder if Reason actually lives in the U.S. and if so, why doesn't he go live in Southern Somalia where life is like a paradise?
| 1024 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:55:44pm |
| 1025 |
Varek Raith Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:56:22pm |
re: #1024 reason0911
We?
Hitler was a creation of the Treaty of Versailles. "We" created him.
Nice dodge.
Should we have ignored him during WWII?
Yes.
Or.
No.
| 1026 |
goddamnedfrank Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:56:38pm |
This thread has reached epic levels of ridiculousness.
| 1028 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:57:09pm |
re: #1018 Gus 802
Then how about just non-aggressive government. Again, I think we need to reign in government for now and restore it to its proper role; the protection of life liberty and property. What is wrong with that?
| 1029 |
Varek Raith Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:58:04pm |
re: #1028 reason0911
Then how about just non-aggressive government. Again, I think we need to reign in government for now and restore it to its proper role; the protection of life liberty and property. What is wrong with that?
A little thing called REALITY.
You live in this weird Utopian world that Does. Not. Exist.
| 1030 |
Reginald Perrin Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:58:43pm |
re: #1019 reason0911
You were lucky to have a house. We used to live in ONE ROOM, all 26 of us! No furniture, half the floor was missing, an’ we were all ‘uddled together in one corner, for fear o’ falling.”
“Well you were lucky to have a room! We used to live in a corridoor!”
“Oh, we used to DREAM of livin’ inna corridoor. Woulda been a palace to us. We used to live in a water tank in a rubbish tip. We’d wake up ev’ry morning having a load o’ rotten fish dumped all over us. House…….”
“Well it wasn’t really a house, it was just a hole in the ground covered by a sheet of tarpaulin, but it was a house to us!”
“We were evicted from our hole in the ground. We had to go live in a lake.”
“You were lucky to have a lake! There were 150 of us living in a shoebox in middle of the road!”
“Cardboard box? You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We’d have to get up 6 o’ clock in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down at the mill for 14 hours a day, week in, week out, for 6 pence a week, and when we got home, our father would thrash us to sleep with his belt.”
“Luxury. We had to get out of the lake at 3 o’ clock in the morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of hot gravel, work 20 hour days at the mill, for tuppence a month, and when we got home, our father would beat us around the head and neck with a broken bottle IF WE WERE LUCKY!”
“Well of course we had it tough. We used to have to get out of the shoebox in the middle of the night and lick the road clean with our tongues, eat half a handful of freezing cold gravel, work 24 hours at the mill for 26 years and when we got home, our dad would slash us in two with a bread knife.”
“Right…..I had to get up at 10 o’ clock at night, half an hour before I went to bed, eat a lump of cold poison, work 29 hours at the mill and pay them for permission to come to work, and when we got home—-our dad would kill us and bury us and dance about on our graves singing HALLELUJAH!!!!!”
“You try to tell the young people today that…..they won’t believe you.”
| 1031 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 12:59:46pm |
re: #1025 Varek Raith
You didn't have to ignore him. You could have raised the money from voluntary contributors and gone over to fight for what you believed in. It is immoral to force other people to fund your beliefs. So do I think "we" should have done nothing? No. I don't think about we. I think about I. I think you should have done what you thought was right. If that meant fighting so be it. if that meant ignoring it, so be it. That is freedom.
| 1032 |
Gus Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:00:01pm |
re: #1028 reason0911
Then how about just non-aggressive government. Again, I think we need to reign in government for now and restore it to its proper role; the protection of life liberty and property. What is wrong with that?
Because I've heard it all before from the Patriot and Constitutional types. It become the protection of SELECTIVE liberty and SELECTIVE property. That and free pot -- i.e. yet another Libertarian. Face it. It's not the Old West anymore. It's not 1776, it's 2010.
| 1033 |
Varek Raith Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:00:24pm |
re: #1031 reason0911
Oh, man.
You're whacked.
| 1034 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:00:41pm |
re: #1029 Varek Raith
what is utopian about asking that government not initiate violence against me unless I am being violent toward someone?
| 1035 |
wrenchwench Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:01:20pm |
re: #1028 reason0911
Then how about just non-aggressive government. Again, I think we need to
reignrein in government for now and restore it to its proper role; the protection of life liberty and property. What is wrong with that?
FTFY.
Paulian.
I can google any five word phrase in your #1019 and get Lew Rockwell, The Daily Paul, and Free Republic in the top 5 results.
| 1036 |
Varek Raith Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:01:34pm |
re: #1034 reason0911
what is utopian about asking that government not initiate violence against me unless I am being violent toward someone?
Where/when has the Federal Government initiated violence against you?
| 1037 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:01:54pm |
re: #1032 Gus 802
I'm not a constitutionalist. I don't believe in it. I'd have thought you could pick that up from my reference to lysander spooner and his work "No Treason".
| 1038 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:02:09pm |
re: #1034 reason0911
what is utopian about asking that government not initiate violence against me unless I am being violent toward someone?
You could steal things from people, you could break a contract, you could blow up an empty building... all of these things are not being violent towards someone and yet you doubtlessly deserve to have the government react "violently" towards you if you do them...
| 1039 |
iossarian Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:02:26pm |
re: #1034 reason0911
Define violence. From what you've already said it seems you rule out economic violence.
Is it a crime to prevent a group of people from supporting themselves, to deny them work?
| 1040 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:02:37pm |
re: #1035 wrenchwench
yes. what would I get if I googled any of yours?
| 1041 |
jaunte Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:02:40pm |
re: #1036 Varek Raith
Fish thinks taxation is violence, instead of burden-sharing.
| 1042 |
wrenchwench Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:03:09pm |
| 1043 |
Gus Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:03:19pm |
re: #1037 reason0911
I'm not a constitutionalist. I don't believe in it. I'd have thought you could pick that up from my reference to lysander spooner and his work "No Treason".
You don't believe in the Constitution? What country are you typing from?
| 1044 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:03:21pm |
re: #1041 jaunte
Fish wonders how you will get the money from fish if you don't use violence or threats thereof.
| 1045 |
Varek Raith Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:03:41pm |
| 1046 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:03:58pm |
re: #1043 Gus 802
I don't believe the constitution is a valid social contract. But you don't believe in the Constitution either.
| 1047 |
Gus Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:04:55pm |
re: #1046 reason0911
I don't believe the constitution is a valid social contract. But you don't believe in the Constitution either.
Yes I do. The Constitution and the Constitutionalists (or the Constitution Party) are two different things.
| 1048 |
iossarian Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:05:14pm |
re: #1008 iossarian
So far:
- child labor "a good way for families to get ahead"
- Somalia "actually not as bad as it's made out to be"
- racist hiring policies "not a big problem since you can always take your business elsewhere"
- the Allies should not have fought Hitler in an organized way
| 1049 |
jaunte Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:05:35pm |
re: #1044 reason0911
Down tools, and no one can make you pay.
| 1050 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:06:30pm |
re: #1040 reason0911
yes. what would I get if I googled any of yours?
Me, you'd get a bit of John Locke, a bit of Thomas Jefferson, a lot of Michael Harrington and a somewhat larger bit by that surfer dude from Nazareth.
| 1051 |
wrenchwench Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:07:13pm |
re: #1040 reason0911
yes. what would I get if I googled any of yours?
I just notice you have Adam Kokesh as a "friend" on Facebook. Are your political views in alignment with his?
| 1052 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:07:29pm |
re: #1045 Varek Raith
I was pulled of a train car by an officer for walking through a subway car. He had a gun. If I didn't get off the train I would have been arrested. If I resisted arrest he would have subdued me with violence.
The government is requesting that I pay them over $3000. If i do not pay they will garnish my wages. They will notify my employer that he must send a portion of my wages to them. If he does not comply he will be fined. If he does not pay the fine, he will be jailed. If he resists arrest they will use violence to subdue him.
Whether or not the government uses violence or threats of violence is a settled question. They do.
| 1053 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:08:39pm |
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world can be like beautiful downtown Mogadishu
| 1054 |
iossarian Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:08:41pm |
| 1055 |
Obdicut Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:08:49pm |
re: #1052 reason0911
And, since you said that the government should uphold contracts, you're cool with them doing that.
otherwise, how are they supposed to uphold contracts?
| 1056 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:08:49pm |
re: #1050 wlewisiii
which five words should I google? by the way, I state John Lockes theory of property rights, which you clearly do not agree with . It is at the foundation of my economic philosophy.
| 1058 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:10:32pm |
re: #1056 reason0911
which five words should I google? by the way, I state John Lockes theory of property rights, which you clearly do not agree with . It is at the foundation of my economic philosophy.
Hey baby are you that sexy Ron Paul fan who's been makin' all this noise down here
| 1059 |
Varek Raith Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:10:48pm |
re: #1052 reason0911
Anarcho-capitalist.
Got it.
| 1060 |
What, me worry? Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:10:50pm |
re: #1053 Charles
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world can be like beautiful downtown Mogadishu
Just what John had in mind!! LOL
| 1061 |
What, me worry? Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:11:55pm |
re: #1052 reason0911
I was pulled of a train car by an officer for walking through a subway car. He had a gun. If I didn't get off the train I would have been arrested. If I resisted arrest he would have subdued me with violence.
The government is requesting that I pay them over $3000. If i do not pay they will garnish my wages. They will notify my employer that he must send a portion of my wages to them. If he does not comply he will be fined. If he does not pay the fine, he will be jailed. If he resists arrest they will use violence to subdue him.
Whether or not the government uses violence or threats of violence is a settled question. They do.
Hire a lawyer? You are not at the mercy of our government.
Say, like in... oh I don't know... Somalia?
| 1062 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:12:58pm |
re: #1052 reason0911
I was pulled of a train car by an officer for walking through a subway car. He had a gun. If I didn't get off the train I would have been arrested. If I resisted arrest he would have subdued me with violence.
The government is requesting that I pay them over $3000. If i do not pay they will garnish my wages. They will notify my employer that he must send a portion of my wages to them. If he does not comply he will be fined. If he does not pay the fine, he will be jailed. If he resists arrest they will use violence to subdue him.
Whether or not the government uses violence or threats of violence is a settled question. They do.
hahah I bet there's more to this story than "I was walking through a transit train and I was randomly fined all this money"
RON PAUL WILL SAVE ME FROM MY SINS
LOOK UP AT JUST RHEUMY EYES, HIS DRY AND FLAKING SKIN
BEHOLD THE NEW LEADER FOR AMERICA
| 1063 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:13:12pm |
It's not the taxation itself. It's the idea that government can use violence. That idea attracts people to government. Some of those people will be bad. Some of those people will disagree with you. Then what will you do? Protest? Really? Because bad people really care about your whining. They only understand violence. How do you keep bad people from using the violence of the state against you? by the way, those bad people will probably be rich and have tons of influence so maybe they don't even need to get elected. Maybe they can just buy senators and congressman. Maybe they can even write legislation...
Seriously, does anyone here really believe we should have be forced to pay for the iraq occupation.
I'm just advocating some moderation in government power.
| 1064 |
Gus Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:13:12pm |
re: #1052 reason0911
I was pulled of a train car by an officer for walking through a subway car. He had a gun. If I didn't get off the train I would have been arrested. If I resisted arrest he would have subdued me with violence.
The government is requesting that I pay them over $3000. If i do not pay they will garnish my wages. They will notify my employer that he must send a portion of my wages to them. If he does not comply he will be fined. If he does not pay the fine, he will be jailed. If he resists arrest they will use violence to subdue him.
Whether or not the government uses violence or threats of violence is a settled question. They do.
Uh, the fine for walking between subway cars in NYC is 75 bucks.
| 1065 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:13:23pm |
re: #1061 marjoriemoon
Hire a lawyer? You are not at the mercy of our government.
Say, like in... oh I don't know... Somalia?
Ron Paul people are like Amway people, I swear
| 1066 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:14:14pm |
re: #1063 reason0911
It's not the taxation itself. It's the idea that government can use violence. That idea attracts people to government. Some of those people will be bad. Some of those people will disagree with you. Then what will you do? Protest? Really? Because bad people really care about your whining. They only understand violence. How do you keep bad people from using the violence of the state against you? by the way, those bad people will probably be rich and have tons of influence so maybe they don't even need to get elected. Maybe they can just buy senators and congressman. Maybe they can even write legislation...
Seriously, does anyone here really believe we should have be forced to pay for the iraq occupation.
I'm just advocating some moderation in government power.
huh? We invaded them genius
| 1067 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:14:30pm |
re: #1059 Varek Raith
"to label is to libel, or at least to divest the conversation of individuating cirmcumstances."
But quite so. Not sure what that means to you.
| 1068 |
iossarian Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:14:51pm |
re: #1063 reason0911
Right, we'll abrogate the power of the rich by eliminating government.
That'll work.
| 1069 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:15:32pm |
re: #1066 WindUpBird
yes genius. I know that. should we have been forced to pay for the invasion and occupation?
| 1070 |
Varek Raith Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:15:44pm |
re: #1067 reason0911
"to label is to libel, or at least to divest the conversation of individuating cirmcumstances."
But quite so. Not sure what that means to you.
It means you don't take the harsh reality of the world into account.
You just ignore it and cling to your libertarian theories.
| 1071 |
Gus Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:16:12pm |
re: #1052 reason0911
I was pulled of a train car by an officer for walking through a subway car. He had a gun. If I didn't get off the train I would have been arrested. If I resisted arrest he would have subdued me with violence.
The government is requesting that I pay them over $3000. If i do not pay they will garnish my wages. They will notify my employer that he must send a portion of my wages to them. If he does not comply he will be fined. If he does not pay the fine, he will be jailed. If he resists arrest they will use violence to subdue him.
Whether or not the government uses violence or threats of violence is a settled question. They do.
And if that cop wasn't there to possibly give you a 75 dollar fine odds are that one day you will run into somebody "with a gun" that won't be very nice. And he'll not even think twice about shooting someone in the head for less than 20.
| 1072 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:16:17pm |
Seriously, I love a guy like this, because it's usually some very angry poindexter type who's sort of deluded but in an adorable way, just all NO WE HAVE TO FIGHT BACK!!! and PAY NO ATTENTION TO RON PAUL'S RACIST CONNECTIONS!
And then everyone with some perspective is like who are you kidding dude, put the gold down and get out of the blimp, we're going back to the group home now to have some saltines
| 1073 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:16:21pm |
re: #1064 Gus 802
yes I know. the point is that I was held against my will for a non-violent offense.
| 1074 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:16:22pm |
re: #1059 Varek Raith
Anarcho-capitalist.
Got it.
Yep. Probably got wood when he read about the Tennessee fire department thing.
| 1075 |
jaunte Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:16:38pm |
Running from a $3000 tax bill? What countries will not extradite?
[Link: wiki.answers.com...]
| 1076 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:17:54pm |
re: #1069 reason0911
yes genius. I know that. should we have been forced to pay for the invasion and occupation?
No, I guess you make a lot of sense to me, we should be able to invade anyone we want and make them pay for it, hell by my figures we should be able to invade and conquer the whole world by next summer
That sounds like, oh I don't know, something I saw in a video game once
| 1078 |
What, me worry? Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:18:00pm |
re: #1063 reason0911
Violent government. Really?
If we lived in this government limited utopia like Ayn Rand says, no public roads, no public hospitals, no schools, no parks, no fireman, no police (actually she does advocate for SMALL defense, but I think only nationally). how long do you think it will take before your neighbors who are sick and starving rise up and beat the living crap outa you?
| 1079 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:18:40pm |
re: #1073 reason0911
yes I know. the point is that I was held against my will for a non-violent offense.
hahaha so nobody can ever be arrested for a non violent offense?
Sure there guy
Do you even have a job?
Or do you just sit at home and fight the power all day?
| 1080 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:18:59pm |
| 1081 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:19:09pm |
re: #1073 reason0911
yes I know. the point is that I was held against my will for a non-violent offense.
Grand larceny on its own is a non-violent offense.
There exist Non violent offenses which someone deserves to be held against their will for.
| 1082 |
iossarian Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:19:18pm |
re: #1073 reason0911
See, if you actually cared about logic, we could start talking about what your specific offense was, and why it's an offense (in other words, why society has decided to curtail that specific action).
Usually there are good reasons. Sometimes (e.g., gay marriage) there are not. Via the power of democracy, we seek to increase the good reasons and decrease the bad.
But all of this is predicated on the "caring about logic" bit.
| 1083 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:19:32pm |
re: #1081 jamesfirecat
Grand larceny on its own is a non-violent offense.
There exist Non violent offenses which someone deserves to be held against their will for.
yeah, isn't what Madoff did totally non violent?
lol
| 1084 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:20:29pm |
re: #1076 WindUpBird
You should just stop. There are smarter people on this thread I think better able to debate your point.
I'm saying (read slowly now): If we did not have to pay for the invasion and occupation it would not have happened. We should not have to pay for the military adventures of ideologues or to support the military industrial complex.
| 1085 |
iossarian Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:20:44pm |
re: #1081 jamesfirecat
You're forgetting the PRIVATE PROPERTY!!! part of libertarianism.
| 1086 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:21:42pm |
re: #1084 reason0911
You should just stop. There are smarter people on this thread I think better able to debate your point.
I'm saying (read slowly now): If we did not have to pay for the invasion and occupation it would not have happened. We should not have to pay for the military adventures of ideologues or to support the military industrial complex.
Oh I'm not debating, I'm just hassling you! In no way am I taking anything you say seriously
| 1087 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:22:34pm |
| 1088 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:23:24pm |
whre: #1082 iossarian
the point I'm trying to make is precisely that!!! sometimes there are no good reasons but the government is still allowed to use violence because once you allow it to, there's no way to make sure they'll only use it for good. The hundreds of millions of people that have died as a result of that is testament to the fact.
Now, I'm saying since government exists, lets take steps to mitigate these problems. You guys are defending something and I don't even know what it is or why.
Please reason with me a little. Don't view it as me against you. That isn't correct at all.
| 1089 |
Obdicut Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:26:03pm |
re: #1088 reason0911
So why do you think the government should uphold contracts by using violence, since breaching a contract is a non-violent crime?
| 1090 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:26:57pm |
re: #1089 Obdicut
because it exists and thats it's directive.
| 1091 |
iossarian Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:28:33pm |
re: #1088 reason0911
I don't view it as me against you, I view it as you against reality.
Should the government:
- regulate hospitals?
- build roads?
- run a postal service?
- prevent white mill owners from refusing to hire black workers (when there are no black mill owners who will hire those workers)?
- etc?
| 1092 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:30:27pm |
re: #1034 reason0911
what is utopian about asking that government not initiate violence against me unless I am being violent toward someone?
In this, you concede the right of government to initiate violence against those who are being violent toward "someone." This contradicts your earlier claim, in #1001, that we had no right to be in Somalia. The Somali gangs and militias were in fact using violence and the threat of violence to plunder and starve their neighbors who were helpless to resist.
It is an obvious falsehood, btw, to conflate the perpetrators (the Somali militias) with their victims (the Somali people) as you did in #996.
re: #1056 reason0911
which five words should I google? by the way, I state John Lockes theory of property rights, which you clearly do not agree with . It is at the foundation of my economic philosophy.
You do realize that property rights could not exist without the power of government to use violence in their defense? You cannot protect your homestead from roving bands of looters while you are at work. It is the coercive power of government that reduces your chance of being robbed on any particular day from 100% to a small fraction of 1%.
Of course, none of this is true if you aspire to be one of the predators yourself. My security guard friend, a private contractor but licensed by the state, refers to the numerous "badge-haters" as "the bank robber lobby."
There may be something to this. It seems at least possible that what libertarian extremists really resent is the government's power to keep them from preying on their fellow citizens. This seems especially likely given the extremists' absolute obsession with their own right to use force.
| 1093 |
What, me worry? Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:30:58pm |
re: #1088 reason0911
wh
the point I'm trying to make is precisely that!!! sometimes there are no good reasons but the government is still allowed to use violence because once you allow it to, there's no way to make sure they'll only use it for good. The hundreds of millions of people that have died as a result of that is testament to the fact.
Now, I'm saying since government exists, lets take steps to mitigate these problems. You guys are defending something and I don't even know what it is or why.
Please reason with me a little. Don't view it as me against you. That isn't correct at all.
I don't get you. You're black (you say...) but don't care about the suffering of your own people? You say that and expect people here to respect that?
| 1094 |
Obdicut Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:31:45pm |
re: #1090 reason0911
because it exists and thats it's directive.
So all your whining about having been held for a non-violent crime was irrelevant, since you support the government's right to hold people for non-violent crimes.
You're not even consistent in your idiocy.
| 1095 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:37:50pm |
This has been most enlightening, folks, but I have to go off to work so the IRS does not seize my business to force me to actually pay the taxes that keep my offices from being robbed at gunpoint and occupied by freelance squatters.
| 1096 |
What, me worry? Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:38:58pm |
re: #1095 Shiplord Kirel
This has been most enlightening, folks, but I have to go off to work so the IRS does not seize my business to force me to actually pay the taxes that keep my offices from being robbed at gunpoint and occupied by freelance squatters.
Ciao. Good story, upthread, btw!
| 1097 |
What, me worry? Mon, Oct 11, 2010 2:23:46pm |
You guys still here? hehe I see the stalkers latched onto this thread with a figurative thumbs up to our friend. So they support the anarchist, Israel hater now? (#889 "Morally, I feel opposition to the Israeli state and it's actions is the right and consistent position.") Even when the anarchist, Israel hater DOES believe in wars of self-defense, just not for Jews.
But hey it's good to see who the stalkers are rooting for now.
| 1098 |
reason0911 Mon, Oct 11, 2010 2:50:50pm |
re: #1094 Obdicut
I haven't called you or your Ideas stupid.
I don't believe government should use violence to enforce contracts except where a transfer of property has taken place and one party has not held up their end of the agreement. Violence can he used to retrieve the now stolen goods or compensation. This is consistentn. Madoff convinced speculators that if they gave him money, he could promise them returns. For many of his customers he did that. As happens in a ponzi scheme the johnny-come-latelies lose out... kind of like social security. Should he have been jailed for this? Probably not. People should not be so easily fooled...but where was the government to protect us all from Madoff? Absent. As for larceny you have a right to retrieve your property and so by extension so does government. This is a completely consistent view point.
| 1099 |
Obdicut Mon, Oct 11, 2010 2:56:24pm |
re: #1098 reason0911
It would be consistent if you hadn't already railed against the government for using violence to deal with non-violent crimes. Which you have.
| 1100 |
garhighway Mon, Oct 11, 2010 3:29:23pm |
re: #953 reason0911
I have no desire to participate in your "civilized" society.
OK. Leave. Let me know what else you find. Drop us a postcard.
Essentially what you're saying is that by the nature of having been born I have relinquished my right to make decisions for myself and am bound act in accordance with the laws of some majority be reason of power of force.
No. Billions are born and are not subject to our laws. You, however, are here, and therefore you are subject to them. Don't like them? Work to change them or leave.
Alone in a Bathroom: The Fear and Uncertainty of a Post-Roe Medication Abortion Angel tucked two white pills into each side of her mouth, bracing herself as they began to dissolve. Her deepest fears and anxieties took over. Angel had wanted to talk to a doctor before she took the pills to ...
Cheechako
They Were Desperate to Get Pregnant. Then IVF Gave Them Extra Embryos. One morning last spring, Ashley Harrolle put her 1-year-old daughter down for a nap and went to the kitchen. She pulled up her fertility clinic’s contact information. It was time to make the call. In a freezer several hundred ... CheechakoJoe Bacon ✅
March FavoritesYou've seen these all already but looking back, just because. These are my favorite shots of this last month. That 1937 Zeiss Sonnar is such a gloriously wonderful bit of glass. Thanks for looking.
William Lewis
Russia’s New Combat Robots Blown Up by Drones Near Avdiivka When we landed on the moon, I thought about how science fiction had become real. Now, the robot wars have begun. It's more poignant somehow on the ground than in the missile wars we have in the air as ...
Rightwingconspirator
Why Did More Than 1,000 People Die After Police Subdued Them With Force That Isn’t Meant to Kill? An investigation led by The Associated Press has found that, over a decade, more than 1,000 people died after police subdued them through physical holds, stun guns, body blows and other force not intended to be lethal. More: Why ... CheechakoKGxvi
Abortions Outside Medical System Increased Sharply After Roe Fell, Study Finds The number of women using abortion pills to end their pregnancies on their own without the direct involvement of a U.S.-based medical provider rose sharply in the months after the Supreme Court eliminated a constitutional right to abortion, according ... Cheechako
Once Praised, the Settlement to Help Sickened BP Oil Spill Workers Leaves Most With Nearly Nothing When a deadly explosion destroyed BP’s Deepwater Horizon drilling rig in the Gulf of Mexico, 134 million gallons of crude erupted into the sea over the next three months — and tens of thousands of ordinary people were hired ... Cheechako
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ... Cheechako
