Rachel Maddow vs. GOP Wacko Art Robinson

Wingnuts • Views: 14,901

Oregon GOP congressional candidate Arthur Robinson, subject of several posts at LGF, was on the Rachel Maddow show tonight. And you won’t believe how crazy this one gets.

Robinson claims to be a scientist, when he’s one of the most rabid, irrational anti-science GOP fools in an election full of them. A true jaw-dropper of an interview.

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1101 comments

1 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:07:05pm

More horseshit. AGW denial is not only stupid, its also bad politics in the longer term.

2 Nick Schroeder  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:07:13pm

Maddow clearly demonstrated that Art Robinson thinks at the speed of potato.

3 Kragar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:07:44pm

I like how he totally fails to answer any questions.

4 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:08:04pm

re: #1 Dark_Falcon

More horseshit. AGW denial is not only stupid, its also bad politics in the longer term.

The horseshit is coming from Art Robinson, just to be clear.

5 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:11:13pm

I missed this old thread:

GOP Candidate Arthur Robinson: Dump Oil and Nuclear Waste at Sea

He really believes that? What a fucking nimrod.

6 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:13:13pm

I like the scene out his window.

7 Kragar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:13:33pm

Direct quotes from a candidate's own newsletter is mudslinging.

How dare they smear a man with his own words?
/

8 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:13:47pm

re: #5 NJDhockeyfan

Welp, given that the subject is the same, can you explain what the hell you meant from last thread when you said that using oil doesn't cause AGW?

This comment is the one I'm referring to:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

9 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:14:00pm

re: #5 NJDhockeyfan

I missed this old thread:

GOP Candidate Arthur Robinson: Dump Oil and Nuclear Waste at Sea

He really believes that? What a fucking nimrod.

Yeah, this guy is indefensible.

10 jaunte  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:14:12pm

He's quite an over-talker.

"Robinson is the founder of a group called the “Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine” (OISM), which markets, among other things, a home-schooling kit for "parents concerned about socialism in the public schools" and books on how to survive nuclear war." [Link: www.desmogblog.com...]
11 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:14:55pm

re: #2 Nick Schroeder

Maddow clearly demonstrated that Art Robinson thinks at the speed of potato.

Challenge. Potatoes are a complete food, Robinson is a complete imbecile.

12 Lidane  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:15:59pm

re: #2 Nick Schroeder

Maddow clearly demonstrated that Art Robinson thinks at the speed of potato.

That's an insult to the potato. It's clearly smarter than Art Robinson.

13 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:16:20pm

re: #10 jaunte

He's quite an over-talker.

HEAD FOR THE HILLS!!1 BUY GUNZ!1 BUY SURVIVAL SEEDS!!!11 BUY MY BOOKS!11

Seriously, the guy sounds like Glenn Beck.

14 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:16:27pm

re: #8 Obdicut

Welp, given that the subject is the same, can you explain what the hell you meant from last thread when you said that using oil doesn't cause AGW?

This comment is the one I'm referring to:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I'm not totally sold on AGW. This summer was very hot and last winter was very cold. I'm not seeing it yet. I think Al Gore is full of shit.

15 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:17:11pm

re: #14 NJDhockeyfan

I'm not totally sold on AGW. This summer was very hot and last winter was very cold. I'm not seeing it yet. I think Al Gore is full of shit.

Protip: Weather does not equal climate.

16 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:17:48pm

re: #14 NJDhockeyfan

I'm not totally sold on AGW. This summer was very hot and last winter was very cold. I'm not seeing it yet. I think Al Gore is full of shit.

Cycles within cycles. The overall trend is still towards higher temperatures.

17 jaunte  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:17:52pm

re: #13 Dark_Falcon

You have to read the whole thousands and thousands of scientific words in his pamphlet to truly understand. /

18 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:18:52pm

re: #14 NJDhockeyfan

Oh for fuck's sake.

I'd suggest you read a site called LGF to figure out why that statement is profoundly idiotic.

You are saying things that are every bit as ignorant as Robinson.

Every bit.

19 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:19:34pm

re: #17 jaunte

You have to read the whole thousands and thousands of scientific words in his pamphlet to truly understand. /

Too hard. He has a degree from CalTech, for crying out loud. How could I ever hope to understand his carefully constructed scientific arguments -- oh wait. He's a lunatic. Never mind.

20 jaunte  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:19:57pm

re: #19 imp_62

Out of context!

21 Kragar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:20:54pm

The scariest thing on this interview;

"I've taught thousands of students."

Fucking scary.

22 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:21:29pm

If potatoes are so smart, how are they now in my soup and this guy is walking the streets?
//I'm gonna need a bigger kettle

23 Kragar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:21:43pm

Wait, did this ignorant fuck just say satellite communications were the speed of light?

FUCKING MORON!

24 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:22:06pm

re: #21 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'd ask him, "Taught them what?"

25 jaunte  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:22:26pm

This may be the new technique, rather than running from the press, you simply use the whole interview to slam the interviewer and drop negative soundbites about your opponent.

26 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:22:29pm

re: #18 Obdicut

Oh for fuck's sake.

I'd suggest you read a site called LGF to figure out why that statement is profoundly idiotic.

You are saying things that are every bit as ignorant as Robinson.

Every bit.

Hogwash. I'm entitled to my opinion. That doesn't make me a fucking wacko like Robinson. That guy is an idiot.

27 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:24:09pm

All righty, go for the jugular guys. I have soup and cornbread. Nighty.

28 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:24:17pm

re: #14 NJDhockeyfan

I'm not totally sold on AGW. This summer was very hot and last winter was very cold. I'm not seeing it yet. I think Al Gore is full of shit.

this is a joke, right?

29 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:24:18pm

re: #26 NJDhockeyfan

Hogwash.

I think we should eliminate the words Hogwash, Poppycock, and Balderdash.

30 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:24:27pm

re: #26 NJDhockeyfan

Hogwash. I'm entitled to my opinion. That doesn't make me a fucking wacko like Robinson. That guy is an idiot.

This is a joke, right?

31 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:24:47pm

re: #18 Obdicut

Oh for fuck's sake.

I'd suggest you read a site called LGF to figure out why that statement is profoundly idiotic.

You are saying things that are every bit as ignorant as Robinson.

Every bit.

he's making a joke, right?

32 jaunte  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:25:31pm

Speed of light!

33 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:25:43pm

re: #31 WindUpBird

he's making a joke, right?

Let the "grind-down" commence. (sigh)

34 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:25:53pm

re: #25 jaunte

This may be the new technique, rather than running from the press, you simply use the whole interview to slam the interviewer and drop negative soundbites about your opponent.

That sounds like blogtrolling adapted to TV. You scream and whine about how 'oppressed' you are because someone called you on your bullshit, then you end the proceedings by flouncing to the exit.

35 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:26:05pm

re: #29 Mr Pancakes

I think we should eliminate the words Hogwash, Poppycock, and Balderdash.

How do you feel about Bah! Humbug!

36 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:26:22pm

re: #26 NJDhockeyfan

Hogwash. I'm entitled to my opinion. That doesn't make me a fucking wacko like Robinson. That guy is an idiot.

You have an opinion. Your opinion in this case is ignorant. Just as Robinson's opinions are ignorant.

Seriously, after all of the work Charles has done posting link after fucking link after link after link about AGW, about the scientific evidence for it, about how Al Gore does not matter, about how the AGW-deniers are distorting science, lying their asses off-- how on earth can you still be 'unconvinced'?

37 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:26:40pm

re: #35 imp_62

How do you feel about Bah! Humbug!

Nah... I hate Christmas

38 Interesting Times  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:26:43pm

re: #26 NJDhockeyfan

I'm entitled to my opinion.

But not your own facts.

39 Reginald Perrin  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:27:38pm

re: #31 WindUpBird

he's making a joke, right?

He is playing for attention hoping to derail this thread and make it all about himself.

40 CarleeCork  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:28:25pm

What a dick.

41 jaunte  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:29:07pm

Wow, he really shot himself in all four feet. What an ass.

42 Linden Arden  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:29:16pm

re: #40 CarleeCork

What a dick.

Isn't that the shortest Bible verse?

43 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:29:53pm

re: #39 Reginald Perrin

I don't think that's fair, since I'm the one who brought it up from last thread.

I have no idea what the hell is going on. I had no idea someone could read LGF and still be ignorant about the reality and causes of AGW, any more than I'd think someone could be ignorant about the legality of the Israelis boarding the ships running the blockade.

44 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:30:23pm

re: #23 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Wait, did this ignorant fuck just say satellite communications were the speed of light?

FUCKING MORON!

I'm not trying to support that fool but don't radio waves travel the same speed as light? Maybe I'm wrong.

45 CarleeCork  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:30:29pm

And what in the hell is he wearing? That looks like something my redneck ex would wear. Has he been trapping coons?

46 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:30:48pm

I would have to say that denying climate change, and denying a human component to said change, is closely akin to denying the theory of evolution. Observe:
"If evolution is true, how come monkeys aren't evolving before our very eyes?"
"If global warming is true, how come there was snow last winter?"

You can have these arguments ad nauseam, but they are essentially meaningless in the face of established scientific fact.

47 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:31:19pm

re: #44 NJDhockeyfan

I'm not trying to support that fool but don't radio waves travel the same speed as light? Maybe I'm wrong.

Nope, major latency on dish....... so I am told.

48 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:31:34pm

re: #42 Linden Arden

Isn't that the shortest Bible verse?

No. HOLY CRAP! That's the shortest. Lot's wife upon turning to look back.

49 Interesting Times  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:31:35pm

re: #29 Mr Pancakes

re: #30 WindUpBird

Apropos of nothing, if one skims too quickly, your avatars look strikingly similar.

*Note to self* Be careful when dinging and composing replies...

50 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:31:55pm

re: #39 Reginald Perrin

51 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:32:05pm

re: #36 Obdicut

You have an opinion. Your opinion in this case is ignorant. Just as Robinson's opinions are ignorant.

Seriously, after all of the work Charles has done posting link after fucking link after link after link about AGW, about the scientific evidence for it, about how Al Gore does not matter, about how the AGW-deniers are distorting science, lying their asses off-- how on earth can you still be 'unconvinced'?

I'm not convinced yet. So what? It's not the end of the world dude. I don't agree with everything on here and neither do you. Take it easy.

52 jaunte  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:32:20pm

re: #44 NJDhockeyfan

They also have to travel through a lot of wiring and switching, which slows things down.

53 Kragar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:32:51pm

re: #44 NJDhockeyfan

I'm not trying to support that fool but don't radio waves travel the same speed as light? Maybe I'm wrong.

They do, but that does not mean instantaneous communications. There is a lag depending on distance, atmospheric conditions and other disturbances.

54 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:33:06pm

re: #49 publicityStunted

re: #30 WindUpBird

Apropos of nothing, if one skims too quickly, your avatars look strikingly similar.

*Note to self* Be careful when dinging and composing replies...

Hmmm mine's a pancake..... his is something that looks like a stick figure burning or something.

55 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:33:27pm

re: #49 publicityStunted

re: #30 WindUpBird

Apropos of nothing, if one skims too quickly, your avatars look strikingly similar.

*Note to self* Be careful when dinging and composing replies...

Favourite food themed avatars: Mr Pancakes and Philly Pretzels

56 Linden Arden  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:33:40pm

re: #44 NJDhockeyfan

I'm not trying to support that fool but don't radio waves travel the same speed as light? Maybe I'm wrong.

light 186,00 miles a second.

CB radio - truck to truck intrastate.

57 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:34:40pm

re: #52 jaunte

They also have to travel through a lot of wiring and switching, which slows things down.

I was thinking about the transmission from the satellite to my dish without including the wires and anything else.

58 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:34:41pm

re: #51 NJDhockeyfan

I'm not convinced yet. So what? It's not the end of the world dude. I don't agree with everything on here and neither do you. Take it easy.

Then don't object when I call your ignorance ignorance, and say you're saying things just as foolish as Robinson. Because you are.

Can you explain what is unconvincing, to you, of the zillions of links Charles has posted, showing the consensus in the scientific community?

What aren't you convinced of? That warming is occurring at all? It kind of sounds like it.

59 Interesting Times  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:35:35pm

re: #54 Mr Pancakes

Hmmm mine's a pancake... his is something that looks like a stick figure burning or something.

I know. It's the color scheme more than anything else.

60 jaunte  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:35:37pm

re: #57 NJDhockeyfan

The transmission through vacuum is speed of light, but through atmosphere and hardware it's slower.

61 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:36:19pm

Yah, leave me all by myself downstairs. Some friends you guys are.

(pout)

62 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:36:20pm

re: #39 Reginald Perrin

He is playing for attention hoping to derail this thread and make it all about himself.

You've got mail.

63 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:37:20pm

re: #39 Reginald Perrin

He is playing for attention hoping to derail this thread and make it all about himself.

It's not??
//
Oh, OK...

64 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:37:26pm

re: #60 jaunte

In fact, 'speed of light' differs between vacuum and air (and anything else). So unless everything in the equation is vacuum, nothing ever happens at the ideal speed of light.

65 Interesting Times  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:37:33pm

re: #60 jaunte

The transmission through vacuum is speed of light, but through atmosphere and hardware it's slower.

At home, I have no "high speed" Internet option other than satellite. There are days when it doesn't even reach the speed of heavily sedated snails.

66 Linden Arden  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:37:35pm

re: #62 Dark_Falcon

You've got mail.

What can we argue about tonight?

67 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:37:59pm

re: #58 Obdicut

Then don't object when I call your ignorance ignorance, and say you're saying things just as foolish as Robinson. Because you are.

Can you explain what is unconvincing, to you, of the zillions of links Charles has posted, showing the consensus in the scientific community?

What aren't you convinced of? That warming is occurring at all? It kind of sounds like it.

Oh Jesus Christ, do I have to believe everything you do just to prevent you from calling me ignorant? OK, AGW is true and the oceans will rise until my house in the mountains is waterfront property.

Is that better?

68 jaunte  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:38:42pm

Traveling through Art Robinson's neighborhood (southwestern Oregon) this summer, I passed a couple of these: Image: Creator_Roseburg1SM_1.jpg

69 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:38:55pm

re: #66 Linden Arden

What can we argue about tonight?

You're more macho than I am?
(lol!)

70 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:39:01pm

re: #58 Obdicut

Then don't object when I call your ignorance ignorance, and say you're saying things just as foolish as Robinson. Because you are.

Can you explain what is unconvincing, to you, of the zillions of links Charles has posted, showing the consensus in the scientific community?

What aren't you convinced of? That warming is occurring at all? It kind of sounds like it.

Dude...... He'll never win this argument here on LGF....... why the hounding?

71 Kragar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:39:04pm

re: #64 Obdicut

In fact, 'speed of light' differs between vacuum and air (and anything else). So unless everything in the equation is vacuum, nothing ever happens at the ideal speed of light.

They've actually had a study that proves light moves slower in extremely cold environments

72 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:39:19pm

re: #12 Lidane

That's an insult to the potato. It's clearly smarter than Art Robinson.

But a potato(e) does think kinda slow, even if rather bright for a veggie.

73 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:39:42pm

re: #66 Linden Arden

What can we argue about tonight?

I'm too tired to argue.

74 jaunte  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:40:17pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

No you're not.

75 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:40:21pm

re: #68 jaunte

Traveling through Art Robinson's neighborhood (southwestern Oregon) this summer, I passed a couple of these: Image: Creator_Roseburg1SM_1.jpg

The ape looks a lot smarter than the dude with the goatee. Maybe that's what we got wrong about evolution -- it's bi-directional and some folks are moving one way, some the other way...

76 bratwurst  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:40:22pm

re: #14 NJDhockeyfan

I'm not totally sold on AGW. This summer was very hot and last winter was very cold. I'm not seeing it yet. .

Your lack of understanding of this issue is breathtaking.

77 Interesting Times  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:40:25pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

I'm too tired to argue.

No you're not :P

78 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:40:36pm

re: #67 NJDhockeyfan

Oh Jesus Christ, do I have to believe everything you do just to prevent you from calling me ignorant?

No. But denial of AGW is ignorant, especially on LGF, after all the work Charles has done posting links precisely to educate the community on the subject of AGW. I'm really not interesting in you trying to make this some personal thing; it's not. It's about you rejecting science, in the same way Robinson is, for no apparent reason-- and no apparent sense of irony.

Again: What are you unconvinced of?

79 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:41:04pm

re: #14 NJDhockeyfan

I'm not totally sold on AGW. This summer was very hot and last winter was very cold. I'm not seeing it yet. I think Al Gore is full of shit.

I see you have trouble distinguishing between weather and climate. Might be time to hit the books.

Al Gore was right. He made some mistakes, but those do not detract from the rest which was accurate.

80 Linden Arden  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:41:17pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

I'm too tired to argue.

Get thee to an apothecary - or a good witch.

Better luck Friday.

81 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:41:18pm

re: #70 Mr Pancakes

Dude... He'll never win this argument here on LGF... why the hounding?

What's the subject of the thread?

82 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:41:19pm

re: #65 publicityStunted

At home, I have no "high speed" Internet option other than satellite. There are days when it doesn't even reach the speed of heavily sedated snails.

I have BPL wich is slower than your internet speed most of the time. I lose internet connection constantly. When I moved out here dial up was the only thing going anywhere. Technology hasn't caught up with my neighborhood yet.

83 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:41:37pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

I'm too tired to argue.

SMACK

!re: #77 publicityStunted

No you're not :P

THUMP!

84 Interesting Times  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:41:42pm

re: #74 jaunte

No you're not.

re: #77 publicityStunted

No you're not :P

QED re the speed of satellite Internet access :(

85 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:41:53pm

re: #81 Obdicut

What's the subject of the thread?

Uh huh....

86 CarleeCork  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:42:16pm

AGW is a theory like evolution is a theory like gravity is a theory.

87 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:42:38pm

Just because, it's my day, today!

88 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:42:54pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

I'm too tired to argue.

Fine, then we can just squabble.

89 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:43:16pm

re: #88 EmmmieG

Maybe just a kvetch.

90 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:43:33pm

re: #89 Obdicut

Maybe just a kvetch.

A spat?

91 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:43:50pm

re: #76 bratwurst

Your lack of understanding of this issue is breathtaking.

I'm glad to be the one to take your breath away. Did I win a prize?

92 Amory Blaine  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:44:03pm

Ugg That was painful to watch. Several times I felt like punching myself in the face.

93 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:44:18pm

re: #26 NJDhockeyfan

Hogwash. I'm entitled to my opinion. That doesn't make me a fucking wacko like Robinson. That guy is an idiot.

Your opinion goes full force against what the science says. I have no trouble telling you your opinion in this matter is baseless and useless.

94 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:45:06pm

re: #78 Obdicut

No. But denial of AGW is ignorant, especially on LGF, after all the work Charles has done posting links precisely to educate the community on the subject of AGW. I'm really not interesting in you trying to make this some personal thing; it's not. It's about you rejecting science, in the same way Robinson is, for no apparent reason-- and no apparent sense of irony.

Again: What are you unconvinced of?

I just don't buy it yet. Isn't that enough?

95 bratwurst  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:45:50pm

re: #91 NJDhockeyfan

I'm glad to be the one to take your breath away. Did I win a prize?

Willful ignorance: you have it.

96 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:45:56pm

re: #94 NJDhockeyfan

I just don't buy it yet. Isn't that enough?

Like lambs to the slaughter......

97 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:46:25pm

re: #88 EmmmieG

Fine, then we can just squabble.

Can we interest you in a little squibble then? Or perhaps a few unkind words before drifting off to sleep?

98 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:46:54pm

re: #96 Mr Pancakes

Like lambs to the slaughter...

mmmmm --- mutton

99 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:47:07pm

re: #97 imp_62

Can we interest you in a little squibble then? Or perhaps a few unkind words before drifting off to sleep?

Perhaps a quiet disagreement?

100 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:47:17pm

re: #47 Mr Pancakes

Nope, major latency on dish... so I am told.

The latency is within the equipment. The waves travel at the speed of light through atmosphere.

101 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:47:30pm

re: #94 NJDhockeyfan

I just don't buy it yet. Isn't that enough?

No, of course it's not. "Enough" for what? "I don't buy it" is a ridiculous, ignorant statement with no force to it.

What is it that you don't buy? Can you name something about AGW that you don't believe?

Do you not believe that CO2 causes atmosphere to trap more heat?
Do you not believe that mankind has produced huge amounts of CO2 that are still in atmosphere?
Do you not believe that the temperature record shows warming?

Because those three very simple things, added together, prove AGW.

So which one do you 'just don't buy'?

102 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:47:42pm

re: #93 b_sharp

Your opinion goes full force against what the science says. I have no trouble telling you your opinion in this matter is baseless and useless.

That's your opinion. We can still be friends can't we?

103 bratwurst  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:48:24pm

re: #94 NJDhockeyfan

I just don't buy it yet. Isn't that enough?

Not buying it is one thing. Basing your opinion on the past two seasons of weather is plain old ignorant.

104 CarleeCork  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:49:42pm

re: #98 imp_62

mmm --- mutton


I was thinking mmmmm, pancakes.

105 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:50:30pm

re: #99 EmmmieG

Perhaps a quiet disagreement?

A barely perceptible disdainful head shake?

106 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:50:36pm

re: #103 bratwurst

Not buying it is one thing. Basing your opinion on the past two seasons of weather is plain old ignorant.

How long have the scientists been collecting data for their global warming research?

107 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:50:45pm

re: #105 imp_62

A barely perceptible disdainful head shake?

A rolling of the eyes.

108 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:50:46pm

re: #104 CarleeCork

I was thinking mmm, pancakes.

Pancakes are good!

109 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:51:35pm

re: #107 EmmmieG

A rolling of the eyes.

Flaring of the nostrils.

110 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:52:04pm

re: #109 imp_62

Flaring of the nostrils.

With a snort? Or a sigh?

111 CarleeCork  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:52:17pm

re: #108 Mr Pancakes
If you only knew how much I love pancakes with butter and hot syrup....and lots of bacon and an ice cold glass of milk.

:sigh:

112 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:52:21pm

re: #106 NJDhockeyfan

How long have the scientists been collecting data for their global warming research?

As Charles has noted, since 1896, when the heat-trapping properties of CO2 were noticed.

Seriously, dude, why not just go and read the threads Charles has made on the subject instead of asking people to answer the basic questions for you here in this thread?

113 bratwurst  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:52:31pm

re: #106 NJDhockeyfan

How long have the scientists been collecting data for their global warming research?

More than the past two seasons, Professor.

114 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:52:43pm

re: #110 EmmmieG

With a snort? Or a sigh?

A sigh.

115 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:53:25pm

I constructed a solar oven the other day with my daughter for a school project....... cooked a couple of hot dogs in it...... when she wasn't looking I threw it away.

116 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:53:31pm

re: #94 NJDhockeyfan

I just don't buy it yet. Isn't that enough?

Why don't you buy it?

Assuming your decision not to accept the science is based on rational thought, and not based on emotion or fear of the potential consequences of mitigating the effects, where do you believe the science falls short?

117 austin_blue  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:53:43pm

OMG! That's the R's candidate?

What if he wins? Can we adopt Molly Ivin's dictum that every two years, villages all over the State of Texas send their idiots to Austin for the Bi-Annual meeting of the Legislature?

118 Kragar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:53:46pm

re: #106 NJDhockeyfan

How long have the scientists been collecting data for their global warming research?

Direct observation, since the 1850s, all other data from approximately 1000 AD to 1850 is based on reconstructed data

119 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:54:00pm

re: #114 imp_62

A sigh.

Excellent. It has to be one so inaudible that you will stay up all night fuming about that sigh, because a snort you could at least return a glare for.

120 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:54:48pm

re: #102 NJDhockeyfan

That's your opinion. We can still be friends can't we?

Only if you bring the beer.

121 Linden Arden  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:54:53pm

re: #118 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Direct observation, since the 1850s, all other data from approximately 1000 AD to 1850 is based on reconstructed data

and on one floppy diskette!

122 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:55:20pm

re: #118 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

True, the data collection actually predates the theory. I'd forgotten about that.

123 Interesting Times  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:56:12pm

re: #94 NJDhockeyfan

I just don't buy it yet. Isn't that enough?

Let me put it this way: you recently quit smoking, correct? Why do that when not everyone who smokes winds up getting cancer? Or, if I point to a smoker like George Burns who lived to be nearly 100, does that negate all the years of research showing cigarettes are a carcinogen?

124 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:56:27pm

re: #113 bratwurst

More than the past two seasons, Professor.

Hold on, that's a legitimate question. Climate data comes in different packages. Observational data on temperatures, rainfall, distribution of precipitation, etc. This has been going on for upwards of a hundred years or so. Then there is core drilling in arctic ice, which takes us back thousands of years. Studies of the fossil record for gas concentrations, etc. All part of climate research.

Again, do not equate climate and weather.

125 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:56:49pm

re: #112 Obdicut

As Charles has noted, since 1896, when the heat-trapping properties of CO2 were noticed.

Seriously, dude, why not just go and read the threads Charles has made on the subject instead of asking people to answer the basic questions for you here in this thread?

The climate has been changing for millions of years and they just decided a few years ago that global warming is the fault of humans? That's why I don't believe it yet.

126 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:57:15pm

re: #119 EmmmieG

Excellent. It has to be one so inaudible that you will stay up all night fuming about that sigh, because a snort you could at least return a glare for.

You seem well trained in the martial marital arts.

127 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:57:53pm

re: #126 imp_62

You seem well trained in the martial marital arts.

My parents never shouted or yelled. They muttered.

128 jaunte  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:58:47pm

re: #127 EmmmieG

Mine used the deadly, silent lifted eyebrow.

129 austin_blue  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:58:56pm

re: #125 NJDhockeyfan

The climate has been changing for millions of years and they just decided a few years ago that global warming is the fault of humans? That's why I don't believe it yet.

Well, that makes you an ignorant idiot.

I hope your mama is proud of you, because the rest of us think you are a mouth breather who rode the short bus to school.

130 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:59:12pm

re: #125 NJDhockeyfan

Did you just skip the comment where I said that the first theory of global warming came in 1896?

I listed the three components of AGW. You haven't stated which of them you dispute. You are dodging the question.

Could you answer which of the three basic foundations of AGW you are disputing, and on what grounds?

131 freetoken  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:59:16pm

Maddow let Robinson off without even confronting him on some of his other nutty positions, including his blatant over the top theocratic propositions.

Robinson's most damaging position isn't his anti-AGW looniness. His connection and support of the wacko "physicians" group headed by Jane Orient are spreading dangerous mistruths about important health issues.

132 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:59:17pm

re: #39 Reginald Perrin

It's about, what ever you want it to be about.
Your issue, your reply.
Your world.

133 Kragar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:59:23pm

re: #127 EmmmieG

My parents never shouted or yelled. They muttered.

Mine were truly evil. They used sarcasm.

134 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:59:29pm

re: #120 b_sharp

Only if you bring the beer.

Many beers.

135 jaunte  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 8:59:30pm

re: #128 jaunte

Mine used the deadly, silent lifted eyebrow.

Then when we ignored them, they yelled.

136 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:00:06pm

re: #125 NJDhockeyfan

The climate has been changing for millions of years and they just decided a few years ago that global warming is the fault of humans? That's why I don't believe it yet.

You could say that about any scientific discovery to the beginning of time. At some point, it is discovered and quantified. Case in point: People have been dying of "humours" for time immemorial. Now they want us to believe in tiny invisible "bacteria" and "viruses". I don't buy it.

137 Kragar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:00:21pm

re: #125 NJDhockeyfan

The climate has been changing for millions of years and they just decided a few years ago that global warming is the fault of humans? That's why I don't believe it yet.

Look at your post, now at mine. Now back to your post, now back to mine. Sadly, your post isn't mine, but if you stopped trolling and started reading it could look like mine. Look down, look up, where are you? You're scrolling through threads, writing the post your post could look like. What did you post? Back to mine, it's a reply saying something you want to hear. Look again, the post is now diamonds.

138 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:00:49pm

re: #127 EmmmieG

My parents never shouted or yelled. They muttered.

Mine yelled. With gusto and apparent cathartic enjoyment.

139 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:00:59pm

re: #137 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Look at your post, now at mine. Now back to your post, now back to mine. Sadly, your post isn't mine, but if you stopped trolling and started reading it could look like mine. Look down, look up, where are you? You're scrolling through threads, writing the post your post could look like. What did you post? Back to mine, it's a reply saying something you want to hear. Look again, the post is now diamonds.

Oh, genius. An upding wasn't enough this time.

140 Interesting Times  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:01:03pm

re: #125 NJDhockeyfan

The climate has been changing for millions of years and they just decided a few years ago that global warming is the fault of humans? That's why I don't believe it yet.

The past decade was one that saw reduced solar activity (i.e. a solar minimum). Reduced solar activity means cooler average temperatures. But we didn't have cooler average temperatures during that decade, we had the exact opposite - record-breaking warming.

If all the natural factors lead to a cooling phase, but we had record-breaking warming instead, isn't that a rather huge indicator that something unnatural (i.e. man-made) was to blame?

141 jaunte  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:01:23pm

re: #131 freetoken

In her defense, he was putting up an ungodly amount of flack. I was surprised she did as well with her end of the interview as she did.

142 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:01:30pm

re: #133 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Mine were truly evil. They used sarcasm.

Based on how LGF usually rolls, we were all well-schooled in the arts of sarcasm.

143 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:01:34pm

re: #129 austin_blue

Well, that makes you an ignorant idiot.

I hope your mama is proud of you, because the rest of us think you are a mouth breather who rode the short bus to school.

You are an asshole. Everyone is being an adult here. You should learn how to act like a grownup.

144 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:01:54pm

re: #137 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Look at your post, now at mine. Now back to your post, now back to mine. Sadly, your post isn't mine, but if you stopped trolling and started reading it could look like mine. Look down, look up, where are you? You're scrolling through threads, writing the post your post could look like. What did you post? Back to mine, it's a reply saying something you want to hear. Look again, the post is now diamonds.

I don't understand what the fuck you are talking about, but I like getting dizzy and I like diamonds.

145 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:01:57pm

re: #125 NJDhockeyfan

The climate has been changing for millions of years and they just decided a few years ago that global warming is the fault of humans? That's why I don't believe it yet.

They are saying the warming now is caused by humans. Each variation in the climate has causes, it simply doesn't happen without a cause. When we compare the warming now with previous warming periods, the causes of most of those previous periods are not active now. What is active is warming through GHGs. Burning fossil fuels puts a lot of GHGs, specifically CO2 and methane into the air. That CO2 has a marker that is not in other sources of CO2.

146 Linden Arden  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:02:03pm

re: #134 NJDhockeyfan

Many beers.

NJD hockey fan - are you a face painter?

Do you remember the Seinfeld episodes where Putty painted it?

No disrespect - but I like hockey too.

147 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:02:05pm

re: #125 NJDhockeyfan

The climate has been changing for millions of years and they just decided a few years ago that global warming is the fault of humans? That's why I don't believe it yet.

NYD.... cut your losses..... change the subject. I'll talk hockey with you if you tell me what it is.

148 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:02:30pm

re: #130 Obdicut

Did you just skip the comment where I said that the first theory of global warming came in 1896?

I listed the three components of AGW. You haven't stated which of them you dispute. You are dodging the question.

Could you answer which of the three basic foundations of AGW you are disputing, and on what grounds?

I don't have a full report for you. Can't I just not believe it and let it ride?

149 freetoken  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:02:57pm

re: #141 jaunte

Oh yeah, it was enough to just let him be himself, to show the world that he is just a whacked out old fool that belongs on Art Bell's old show and not in Congress.

Yet there is so much there to mine, not the least of which are his connections to most of the other looney GOP candidates.

150 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:03:19pm

re: #144 imp_62

I don't understand what the fuck you are talking about, but I like getting dizzy and I like diamonds.

And, the brilliant parody that my alma mater put out:

151 bratwurst  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:03:28pm

re: #125 NJDhockeyfan

The climate has been changing for millions of years and they just decided a few years ago that global warming is the fault of humans? That's why I don't believe it yet.

Aren't you about due to mention the fact you don't listen to Rush Limbaugh here (even though you just happen to have the same talking point)?

152 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:04:56pm

re: #148 NJDhockeyfan

I'm not asking for a 'full report'. I stated the three, very basic, very simple foundations of AGW. I'm asking which of them you dispute. Hell, don't even bother telling me why you dispute them-- just which of them you dispute.

That you're simply dodging the question is painfully obvious, and I doubt you'll man up and actually answer, but I figured I'd ask one more time before I go to bed.

You can, of course, 'let it ride'. You can remain ignorant.

Just don't be offended when people call your ignorance ignorance, and say that you're just as big of a fool as Robinson.

153 CarleeCork  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:05:00pm

Can't we all just get along and go to IHOP?

154 Kragar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:06:04pm

re: #153 CarleeCork

Can't we all just get along and go to IHOP?

What are you, a dirty liberal with your "INTERNATIONAL" house of pancakes? Waffle house not good enough for you?
/

155 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:06:25pm

re: #151 bratwurst

Aren't you about due to mention the fact you don't listen to Rush Limbaugh here (even though you just happen to have the same talking point)?

Well, in NJD's defence, that talking point is pretty common. I've heard it on AGW blogs dozens of times.

156 Interesting Times  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:06:37pm

re: #148 NJDhockeyfan

Can't I just not believe it and let it ride?

What would you say to someone who used the exact same line regarding the effectiveness of vaccines?

157 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:06:49pm

re: #154 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

What are you, a dirty liberal with your "INTERNATIONAL" house of pancakes? Waffle house not good enough for you?
/

Look, I don't want to spread innuendo, but I'll bet at least one Lizard would order...

Quiche.

158 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:07:18pm

re: #137 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Look at your post, now at mine. Now back to your post, now back to mine. Sadly, your post isn't mine, but if you stopped trolling and started reading it could look like mine. Look down, look up, where are you? You're scrolling through threads, writing the post your post could look like. What did you post? Back to mine, it's a reply saying something you want to hear. Look again, the post is now diamonds.

I'm not trolling. I said I don't believe in AGW right now and am getting attacked from every angle for it. Do I have to believe in it to continue to be a standing member of LGF? No, everyone has their own opinions about everything. No you know one of mine. If you don't like it tough shit but attacking me isn't doing anyone any good.

159 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:07:41pm

re: #153 CarleeCork

Can't we all just get along and go to IHOP?

Thanks..... that positive comment gets me a free coupon for pancakes.

160 CarleeCork  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:07:52pm

re: #157 EmmmieG

Look, I don't want to spread innuendo, but I'll bet at least one Lizard would order...

Quiche.


What's wrong with quiche? I like quiche.

161 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:07:58pm

re: #157 EmmmieG

Look, I don't want to spread innuendo, but I'll bet at least one Lizard would order...

Quiche.

I like quichees, especially in the afternoon.

162 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:07:59pm

re: #157 EmmmieG

Look, I don't want to spread innuendo, but I'll bet at least one Lizard would order...
Quiche.

Can I have *gasp* a frittata?

163 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:08:30pm

re: #158 NJDhockeyfan

Really just one angle:

Not believing in AGW, especially after all the information about AGW Charles has put on LGF, is ignorant as hell-- ignorant in the same way that Robinson is ignorant.

164 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:08:34pm

re: #158 NJDhockeyfan

I'm not trolling. I said I don't believe in AGW right now and am getting attacked from every angle for it. Do I have to believe in it to continue to be a standing member of LGF? No, everyone has their own opinions about everything. No you know one of mine. If you don't like it tough shit but attacking me isn't doing anyone any good.

Dude..... you are on your own...... roll around in the mud if you like.

165 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:08:38pm

re: #140 publicityStunted

The past decade was one that saw reduced solar activity (i.e. a solar minimum). Reduced solar activity means cooler average temperatures. But we didn't have cooler average temperatures during that decade, we had the exact opposite - record-breaking warming.

If all the natural factors lead to a cooling phase, but we had record-breaking warming instead, isn't that a rather huge indicator that something unnatural (i.e. man-made) was to blame?

There was record breaking cooling in a lot of places too. Big fucking deal. Mother nature does that all the time.

166 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:08:44pm

re: #160 CarleeCork

What's wrong with quiche? I like quiche.

Mushroom and Swiss is the best.

167 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:08:48pm

re: #162 imp_62

Can I have *gasp* a frittata?

No! You will have pancakes and waffles and you will like them!

168 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:09:28pm

*grumble, grumble*

Bunch of quiche-loving French socialist pansies...

169 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:09:47pm

re: #146 Linden Arden

NJD hockey fan - are you a face painter?

Do you remember the Seinfeld episodes where Putty painted it?

No disrespect - but I like hockey too.

No but I wanted to do that when I saw that episode. Heh.

170 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:10:23pm

re: #168 EmmmieG

*grumble, grumble*

Bunch of quiche-loving French socialist pansies...

Well.... can I have a short stack, no butter but have 2 waffles with fresh berries?

171 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:10:37pm

re: #168 EmmmieG

*grumble, grumble*

Bunch of quiche-loving French socialist pansies...

I love sushi and quiche...... but then again I'm in California.

172 Digital Display  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:10:55pm

re: #140 publicityStunted

The past decade was one that saw reduced solar activity (i.e. a solar minimum). Reduced solar activity means cooler average temperatures. But we didn't have cooler average temperatures during that decade, we had the exact opposite - record-breaking warming.

If all the natural factors lead to a cooling phase, but we had record-breaking warming instead, isn't that a rather huge indicator that something unnatural (i.e. man-made) was to blame?

exactly the point the well respected Universetoday web site made several years ago..

173 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:11:09pm

re: #170 imp_62

Well... can I have a short stack, no butter but have 2 waffles with fresh berries?

All-American patriotic strawberries? Sure.

174 Claire  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:11:12pm

I can't watch this whole thing- life's too short. My $'s on the Discovery Institute dumping the $150,000 into his campaign.

175 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:11:29pm

re: #147 Mr Pancakes

NYD... cut your losses... change the subject. I'll talk hockey with you if you tell me what it is.

I don't feel like I lost anything. I haven't even posted any anti-AGW links. All I did is give my opinion and all hell broke lose.

176 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:11:30pm

re: #171 Mr Pancakes

I love sushi and quiche... but then again I'm in California.

You are wearing a butter hat. You are very hard to take seriously - without at least a little maple syrup.

177 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:11:41pm

re: #165 NJDhockeyfan

There was record breaking cooling in a lot of places too. Big fucking deal. Mother nature does that all the time.

The trend of the average of those warming and cooling fluctuations is upward. Two steps up, one step down.

178 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:11:41pm

Good night.

And good grief.

179 CarleeCork  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:11:50pm

re: #171 Mr Pancakes

I love sushi and quiche... but then again I'm in California.


That means you should really be Mr. Crepes.....you.....imposter.

180 austin_blue  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:12:05pm

re: #158 NJDhockeyfan

I'm not trolling. I said I don't believe in AGW right now and am getting attacked from every angle for it. Do I have to believe in it to continue to be a standing member of LGF? No, everyone has their own opinions about everything. No you know one of mine. If you don't like it tough shit but attacking me isn't doing anyone any good.

Everyone has told you you are an idiot. And *I'm* an asshole?

Really, get a clue, dude. You are on the wrong side of the argument. It's a done deal here. if you want to spout bullshit, go to the stalker site. They'll absolutely love you there.

181 jaunte  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:12:21pm

Art Robinson's hormesis sounds a lot like homeopathy.

182 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:12:30pm

re: #173 EmmmieG

All-American patriotic strawberries? Sure.

Erm. Actually locavore organic ones, if that's okay with you
*panicking* Don't raise the eyebrow - PLEASE

183 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:12:32pm

re: #151 bratwurst

Aren't you about due to mention the fact you don't listen to Rush Limbaugh here (even though you just happen to have the same talking point)?

No I don't listen to Rush. He must have read my previous LGF posts where I said the same thing.

184 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:13:04pm

re: #178 Obdicut

Good night.

And good grief.

Later, Charlie Brown.

185 farmercharlie  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:13:07pm

I listened to the interview over XM Radio in the car, and could hardly believe it. He seems to have discovered a way to talk continuously without having to stop to take a breath (or listen to what is said). :) Not until I got home did I find out that he is the same crackpot who generated the fraudulent Oregon Petition a few years back, when he apparently tried to make it look like he was representing the National Academy of Sciences' position on climate change. In truth I am not aware of a single peer-reviewed publication he has ever written on anything related to climate science. I sure hope Oregon has the good sense to reject this nut case, but I suppose the sane people in Michele Bachmann's district might welcome moving the spotlight to someone else's cook.

186 avanti  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:13:08pm

re: #165 NJDhockeyfan

There was record breaking cooling in a lot of places too. Big fucking deal. Mother nature does that all the time.

A "lot of places" is know as "weather", global warming is, well, global.

187 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:13:36pm

re: #182 imp_62

Erm. Actually locavore organic ones, if that's okay with you
*panicking* Don't raise the eyebrow - PLEASE

Well, mine were picked by me and my unwilling slave labor (it's easy to find slave labor; just give birth to it) locally, but you can have your organics, if you must.

188 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:14:02pm

re: #175 NJDhockeyfan

I don't feel like I lost anything. I haven't even posted any anti-AGW links. All I did is give my opinion and all hell broke lose.

I'm not saying you lost anything...... you've been around here long enough to know the wolves must eat.

Stand by your opinion and move on.

189 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:14:25pm

re: #179 CarleeCork

That means you should really be Mr. Crepes...you...imposter.

Mr Crepes was taken

190 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:14:40pm

re: #160 CarleeCork

What's wrong with quiche? I like quiche.

Real men don't eat quiche.
/

191 b_sharp  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:14:50pm

The wife demanded I go to bed.

Bye.

192 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:15:14pm

re: #163 Obdicut

Really just one angle:

Not believing in AGW, especially after all the information about AGW Charles has put on LGF, is ignorant as hell-- ignorant in the same way that Robinson is ignorant.

Bullshit. Robinson is a lunatic.

193 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:15:59pm

re: #176 imp_62

You are wearing a butter hat. You are very hard to take seriously - without at least a little maple syrup.

It wasn't poured on yet...... and it was real maple syrup!

194 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:17:16pm

re: #187 EmmmieG

Well, mine were picked by me and my unwilling slave labor (it's easy to find slave labor; just give birth to it) locally, but you can have your organics, if you must.

My wife gave birth to slave labour. It immediately emancipated itself, took control of the means of production, introduced rudimentary democracy and reduced communication to the bare necessities. The worst part is, the emancipated slaves still clean out my wallet every morning.

195 freetoken  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:17:38pm

re: #185 farmercharlie

We've written quite a bit about the guy:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

The Oregon Petition stuff is just the tip of the iceberg.

196 CarleeCork  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:18:20pm

. re: #190 NJDhockeyfan

Real men don't eat quiche.
/


Thank the goddess I am NOT a man.

197 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:18:24pm

re: #192 NJDhockeyfan

Bullshit. Robinson is a lunatic.

That does not mean you're not wrong.

198 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:18:38pm

re: #193 Mr Pancakes

It wasn't poured on yet... and it was real maple syrup!

There was a time - in the far distant pass - when IHOP had real maple syrup in addition to various flavoured ones.

199 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:19:18pm

re: #198 imp_62

There was a time - in the far distant pass - when IHOP had real maple syrup in addition to various flavoured ones.

sigh

200 austin_blue  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:19:19pm

Night, all. She Who Must Be Obeyed is back from the gig in Kerrville.

The Austin City Limits festival starts tomorrow and my neighborhood will be inundated. Oh, joy!

201 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:19:30pm

re: #180 austin_blue

Everyone has told you you are an idiot. And *I'm* an asshole?

Really, get a clue, dude. You are on the wrong side of the argument. It's a done deal here. if you want to spout bullshit, go to the stalker site. They'll absolutely love you there.

If you haven't noticed I wasn't looking for an argument. Obdicut asked my what I thought about AGW and I said what I believe. That's it. Everyone want's this to become a blowout and I won't do it.

/BTW...I got your stalker blog right here.

202 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:19:38pm

re: #192 NJDhockeyfan

Bullshit. Robinson is a lunatic.

That's two things you have in common.

203 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:20:13pm

re: #199 Mr Pancakes

sigh

But do you remember?

204 CarleeCork  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:20:36pm

re: #200 austin_blue

Night, all. She Who Must Be Obeyed is back from the gig in Kerrville.

The Austin City Limits festival starts tomorrow and my neighborhood will be inundated. Oh, joy!


Good night, you are SO lucky to live in a blue city.

205 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:21:45pm

re: #191 b_sharp

The wife demanded I go to bed.

Bye.

You are so whipped.
//

206 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:21:51pm

re: #202 goddamnedfrank

That's two things you have in common.

Now, now. Lack of information and education on an issue does not a lunatic make. Hell, Robinson has an outstanding education, which he now uses to dig scientific latrines.

207 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:22:46pm

re: #188 Mr Pancakes

I'm not saying you lost anything... you've been around here long enough to know the wolves must eat.

Stand by your opinion and move on.

Thank you. I am trying. AGW really pushes some people's buttons.

208 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:23:15pm

re: #203 imp_62

But do you remember?

I used to tap trees in Vermont to get my maple syrup.
/

I don't really remember that....... I'm disappointed they no longer have it though.

209 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:23:50pm

re: #205 NJDhockeyfan

You are so whipped.
//

Dude..... NEVER underestimate the power of pussy.

210 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:24:01pm

re: #197 Dark_Falcon

That does not mean you're not wrong.

It doesn't make me equal with him either.

211 CarleeCork  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:24:43pm

re: #209 Mr Pancakes

Dude... NEVER underestimate the power of pussy.


You are very smart.

212 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:24:53pm

re: #208 Mr Pancakes

I used to tap trees in Vermont to get my maple syrup.
/

I don't really remember that... I'm disappointed they no longer have it though.

I remember it from when I would go out for pancakes with my grandma. If the real syrup wasn't out, you could ask for it. My sister and I used to have contests to see who could identify the real syrup by smell.

213 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:25:13pm

re: #211 CarleeCork

You are very smart.

I've had a lifetime of learning.

214 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:25:35pm

re: #211 CarleeCork

You are very smart.


Actually, I think he is quoting Eddie Murphy in 24 Hours.

215 CarleeCork  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:26:22pm

re: #214 imp_62

Actually, I think he is quoting Eddie Murphy in 24 Hours.


You just had to ruin it, smarty britches.

216 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:26:59pm

re: #209 Mr Pancakes

Dude... NEVER underestimate the power of pussy.

LOL...no doubt.

217 freetoken  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:27:15pm

re: #207 NJDhockeyfan

Thank you. I am trying. AGW really pushes some people's buttons.

Art Robinson is one of the most notorious anti-AGW-science (and just all round anti-science) personalities running in the current election.

That on a thread whose topic is Art Robinson you'd chime in to support one of his beliefs is bound to draw attention.

218 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:27:18pm

re: #210 NJDhockeyfan

It doesn't make me equal with him either.

That is true. You're not an asshole liar and he is.

219 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:28:09pm

re: #214 imp_62

Actually, I think he is quoting Eddie Murphy in 24 Hours.

Actually that quote might have been buried somewhere in my brain....... but I didn't draw from that.

220 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:28:27pm

If anybody is ever passing through Rochester NY (otherwise known as the last stop before the middle of nowhere) - lunch is on me. If we get along, so are drinks.

221 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:28:30pm

re: #214 imp_62

Actually, I think he is quoting Eddie Murphy in 24 48 Hours.

PIYF

222 rikzilla  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:29:16pm

re: #23 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

*ahem* Satellite communications do run at the speed of light. What causes satellite delay is that modern communications satellites are usually found in geostationary orbits. That means the signal must travel 20,000 miles to the bird and 20,000 miles back down to the receiving earth station. The round trip delay is generally around 600 to 800 milliseconds, but if there are clouds, rain, temperature inversions, haze, etc which could induce errors the delay could be a bit longer because of the retransmission of errored data packets.

223 Digital Display  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:29:28pm

re: #190 NJDhockeyfan

Real men don't eat quiche.
/

I grew up eating quiche in Napa Valley...Of course I love anything with eggs in it..I don't care if they are raw..Like in Rocky..easy over, Scrambled...quiche...It doesn't matter...I love eggs in any form known to man...The greatest food known to Mankind...

224 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:29:29pm

re: #217 freetoken

Art Robinson is one of the most notorious anti-AGW-science (and just all round anti-science) personalities running in the current election.

That on a thread whose topic is Art Robinson you'd chime in to support one of his beliefs is bound to draw attention.

It started last thread. I had no intentions to bring it over here but was forced to talk about it. It's all Obdicut's fault.

225 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:29:45pm

re: #206 imp_62

Now, now. Lack of information and education on an issue does not a lunatic make. Hell, Robinson has an outstanding education, which he now uses to dig scientific latrines.

Both of these droolers are maintaining a deliberate ignorance on the subject, no amount of evidence is ever or could ever move them to acknowledge reality because no amount of education will impart knowledge or understanding in an unthinking ideologue. We might as well be talking to a truther, birther, flat-earth believing contrail conspiracist. The more proof piles up the more hardened their positions become.

226 CarleeCork  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:31:16pm

re: #214 imp_62

Actually, I think he is quoting Eddie Murphy in 24 Hours.


Actually it came from Blade 2. I just looked it up. Did Eddie say it first?

227 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:32:39pm

re: #226 CarleeCork

Actually it came from Blade 2. I just looked it up. Did Eddie say it first?

I never saw Blade 2

228 CarleeCork  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:32:50pm

re: #223 HoosierHoops

I grew up eating quiche in Napa Valley...Of course I love anything with eggs in it..I don't care if they are raw..Like in Rocky..easy over, Scrambled...quiche...It doesn't matter...I love eggs in any form known to man...The greatest food known to Mankind...


You and me both, I have an egg every morning. A morning without an egg is like a day without sunshine!

229 Kragar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:32:56pm

re: #222 rikzilla

*ahem* Satellite communications do run at the speed of light. What causes satellite delay is that modern communications satellites are usually found in geostationary orbits. That means the signal must travel 20,000 miles to the bird and 20,000 miles back down to the receiving earth station. The round trip delay is generally around 600 to 800 milliseconds, but if there are clouds, rain, temperature inversions, haze, etc which could induce errors the delay could be a bit longer because of the retransmission of errored data packets.

And this idiot did not realize that.

230 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:33:22pm

re: #224 NJDhockeyfan

Refusing to admit to any fault (even when you are badly in error on the science) and instead blaming everything on someone else is ugly and wrong.

re: #225 goddamnedfrank

Calling any LGF regular a "drooler" is being an insulting ass. Being utterly frank is one thing. but hurling insults like that is another matter.

231 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:33:25pm

re: #225 goddamnedfrank

Both of these droolers are maintaining a deliberate ignorance on the subject, no amount of evidence is ever or could ever move them to acknowledge reality because no amount of education will impart knowledge or understanding in an unthinking ideologue. We might as well be talking to a truther, birther, flat-earth believing contrail conspiracist. The more proof piles up the more hardened their positions become.

True of Robinson, certainly, who is a "bad science" advocate. I think our resident Devils fan is simply waiting to be convinced within the four corners of his intellectual capacity and educational background to be educated on the matter. It really isn't simple stuff, merely because it is proven fact.

232 Digital Display  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:33:39pm

Good night Lizards..
Think I'll have a fried egg sandwich for a late night snack..
Don't you judge me!
Be well

233 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:33:52pm

re: #223 HoosierHoops

I grew up eating quiche in Napa Valley...Of course I love anything with eggs in it..I don't care if they are raw..Like in Rocky..easy over, Scrambled...quiche...It doesn't matter...I love eggs in any form known to man...The greatest food known to Mankind...

My grandmother (from England) used to make me 3 minute eggs when I was a little kid. That's the only time I ever had it. She would place the egg on her little porcelain egg holder, crack open the top of the egg, and let me eat the egg in the shell.

I miss her so much.

234 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:34:21pm

re: #232 HoosierHoops

Good night Lizards..
Think I'll have a fried egg sandwich for a late night snack..
Don't you judge me!
Be well

I fike my undercooked eggs with a dash of salmonella.

235 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:34:39pm

re: #228 CarleeCork

You and me both, I have an egg every morning. A morning without an egg is like a day without sunshine!

Terrible secret about to be revealed. I am not a southerner, however I really like - grits. Most days, I make myself a bowl of grits, two poached eggs and some whole wheat toast for breakfast.

236 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:36:14pm

re: #233 NJDhockeyfan

My grandmother (from England) used to make me 3 minute eggs when I was a little kid. That's the only time I ever had it. She would place the egg on her little porcelain egg holder, crack open the top of the egg, and let me eat the egg in the shell.

I miss her so much.

English Breakfast I intend to have within the next couple of days: Eggs on toast. Baked beans. Fried tomato. Milky tea. Comfort food...

237 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:36:27pm

re: #227 Mr Pancakes

I never saw Blade 2

You didn't miss much. It was the worst of the three movies. The other two pitted Blade against nasty but still fun villains. 2 had a too serious vampire leader who turns out to be a bad guy.

238 CarleeCork  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:36:29pm

re: #235 imp_62

Terrible secret about to be revealed. I am not a southerner, however I really like - grits. Most days, I make myself a bowl of grits, two poached eggs and some whole wheat toast for breakfast.


Another great movie quote. "What's a grit?"

BTW, I love grits.

239 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:38:12pm

re: #237 Dark_Falcon

You didn't miss much. It was the worst of the three movies. The other two pitted Blade against nasty but still fun villains. 2 had a too serious vampire leader who turns out to be a bad guy.

I just got Netflix....... what an incredible service! I'll put it in cue....... bad movies are my passion.

240 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:38:42pm

re: #235 imp_62

Terrible secret about to be revealed. I am not a southerner, however I really like - grits. Most days, I make myself a bowl of grits, two poached eggs and some whole wheat toast for breakfast.

How do you cook your grits? Do you like them regular, creamy or al dente?
~ Vinny Gambini

241 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:39:03pm

re: #238 CarleeCork

Another great movie quote. "What's a grit?"

BTW, I love grits.

One of the best movies ever.

242 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:40:00pm

re: #230 Dark_Falcon

Refusing to admit to any fault (even when you are badly in error on the science) and instead blaming everything on someone else is ugly and wrong.

re: #225 goddamnedfrank

Calling any LGF regular a "drooler" is being an insulting ass. Being utterly frank is one thing. but hurling insults like that is another matter.

I didn't see the post...... but I would have to agree with that...... "drooler" is over the top.

243 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:40:28pm

re: #233 NJDhockeyfan

My grandmother (from England) used to make me 3 minute eggs when I was a little kid. That's the only time I ever had it. She would place the egg on her little porcelain egg holder, crack open the top of the egg, and let me eat the egg in the shell.

I miss her so much.

I call that egg in a cup. My S. African mother passed that one on.

244 CarleeCork  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:40:45pm

re: #241 imp_62

One of the best movies ever.


Totally. I watch it at least once every couple of months.

245 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:41:12pm

re: #242 Mr Pancakes

I didn't see the post... but I would have to agree with that... "drooler" is over the top.

I would never call him a "drooler" over his scientific ineptitude. But for liking the Devils - that's a horse of a different colour.

246 Kragar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:41:14pm

re: #237 Dark_Falcon

You didn't miss much. It was the worst of the three movies. The other two pitted Blade against nasty but still fun villains. 2 had a too serious vampire leader who turns out to be a bad guy.

I liked the Reaper virus vampires.

247 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:41:24pm

re: #243 Stanley Sea

I call that egg in a cup. My S. African mother passed that one on.

3 minutes? I call that egg soup in a cup.

248 CarleeCork  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:42:16pm

re: #233 NJDhockeyfan

My grandmother (from England) used to make me 3 minute eggs when I was a little kid. That's the only time I ever had it. She would place the egg on her little porcelain egg holder, crack open the top of the egg, and let me eat the egg in the shell.

I miss her so much.


What a sweet memory. I hope my grandkids remember me with such love.

249 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:42:26pm

re: #245 imp_62

I would never call him a "drooler" over his scientific ineptitude. But for liking the Devils - that's a horse of a different colour.

Not that's hitting below the belt!

250 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:42:52pm

re: #247 Mr Pancakes

3 minutes? I call that egg soup in a cup.

Toast buttered & cut into dipping strips. The top of the egg resting on the spoon with salt. mmm memories.

251 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:42:56pm

re: #245 imp_62

I would never call him a "drooler" over his scientific ineptitude. But for liking the Devils - that's a horse of a different colour.

I know..... I cringe with the personal attacks...... so be it.

252 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:43:30pm

re: #247 Mr Pancakes

3 minutes? I call that egg soup in a cup.

Disagree. 3 minutes is 1 minute too long for an egg. The white should be a pearly and nearly transparent white, the yolk a triumphant yellow untinged by white.

253 plooger  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:43:30pm

Re: the Maddow/Art Robinson interview...

It's really getting to the point, as I see more and more of these candidates, that I'd have a hard time pulling the lever for Honest Abe, here in Illinois, if he had an "(R)" behind his name, knowing that he'd be putting these R-tards one seat closer to being in charge of the country's agenda.

Thanks for posting this thread/video.

254 CarleeCork  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:43:42pm

I still say we should all blow this joint and hit the IHOP!

255 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:44:12pm

re: #250 Stanley Sea

Toast buttered & cut into dipping strips. The top of the egg resting on the spoon with salt. mmm memories.

I have no problem with runny yolks...... runny whites are a different matter.

256 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:44:24pm

My grandmother is an American. She served me Ovaltine while watching Perry Mason.

Which has led to the inescapable feeling that all murder investigations should be wrapped up in about 50 minutes, including a dramatic confession in a courtroom, and that food should be REALLY processed.

*waves flag*

(Of course I'm not terribly serious. Unless you have something to confess.)

257 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:44:31pm

re: #254 CarleeCork

I still say we should all blow this joint and hit the IHOP!

LET'S GO!!!

258 rikzilla  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:44:49pm

re: #229 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Oh, I see.... I'm late to this thread anyway (shrug) it's just not often I get to put my two cents in. I work for Verizon in an international network control site. While I work with the satellite guys I don't know all that they know on the subject. Most of our satellite circuits are just data and not video so the latency isn't usually a big deal. When you get into live video though it's very stressful to the circuit...the more errors, the more lag...it also depends how fast the circuit is that they are trying to use.

Technology is pretty amazing...it's really a wonder all this stuff works as well as it does on a daily basis given all the stuff that can go wrong.

259 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:45:18pm

re: #254 CarleeCork

I still say we should all blow this joint and hit the IHOP!

Do they have 3 minute eggs served by an lovely elderly grey-haired woman?

260 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:45:39pm

re: #256 EmmmieG

My grandmother is an American. She served me Ovaltine while watching Perry Mason.

Which has led to the inescapable feeling that all murder investigations should be wrapped up in about 50 minutes, including a dramatic confession in a courtroom, and that food should be REALLY processed.

*waves flag*

(Of course I'm not terribly serious. Unless you have something to confess.)

You're my age...... remember Bosco?

261 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:45:50pm

re: #253 plooger

Re: the Maddow/Art Robinson interview...

It's really getting to the point, as I see more and more of these candidates, that I'd have a hard time pulling the lever for Honest Abe, here in Illinois, if he had an "(R)" behind his name, knowing that he'd be putting these R-tards one seat closer to being in charge of the country's agenda.

Thanks for posting this thread/video.

You could always go back in time and vote for the pre-Republican Abe. And bring back some firewood, please.

262 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:46:29pm

re: #253 plooger

Re: the Maddow/Art Robinson interview...

It's really getting to the point, as I see more and more of these candidates, that I'd have a hard time pulling the lever for Honest Abe, here in Illinois, if he had an "(R)" behind his name, knowing that he'd be putting these R-tards one seat closer to being in charge of the country's agenda.

Thanks for posting this thread/video.

Oh look - yer a newb. Welcome, Plogger.

263 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:46:47pm

re: #256 EmmmieG

My grandmother is an American. She served me Ovaltine while watching Perry Mason.

Which has led to the inescapable feeling that all murder investigations should be wrapped up in about 50 minutes, including a dramatic confession in a courtroom, and that food should be REALLY processed.

*waves flag*

(Of course I'm not terribly serious. Unless you have something to confess.)

My kids have Ovaltine all the time. They think it's only chocolate milk.

264 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:46:54pm

re: #260 Mr Pancakes

You're my age... remember Bosco?

Nope. My mother didn't do chocolate milk (she took her chocolate straight up, no chaser), and Grandma only did Ovaltine.

265 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:47:13pm

re: #246 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I liked the Reaper virus vampires.

They were just plain scary. But they weren't a true villain, not even the first of them. The Reaper virus was just a classic world-ending plague that must be contained. Stephen Dorff Parker Posey both has fun vampire leader characters that helped their Blade movies, IMO. And Ryan Reynolds was an excellent casting choice for Blade Trinity.

266 avanti  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:47:30pm

Karen Angle talks about two American cities that have been "taken over" by the Muslims:

Angle: Muslim law taking hold in parts of US

"My thoughts are these, first of all, Dearborn, Michigan, and Frankford, Texas are on American soil, and under constitutional law. Not Sharia law. And I don't know how that happened in the United States," she said. "It seems to me there is something fundamentally wrong with allowing a foreign system of law to even take hold in any municipality or government situation in our United States."

Angle.

267 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:48:45pm

I'm off to bed, Goodnight, all.

268 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:49:17pm

Since we are strolling down breakfast memory lane: I would occasionally walk to school with friends in the city where I grew up. There was a chain of restaurants where you could buy either the "large" or the "small" breakfast. Large was a croissant, another type of roll, butter, jam, coffee and juice. Best breakfasts ever.

269 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:49:20pm

re: #264 EmmmieG

Nope. My mother didn't do chocolate milk (she took her chocolate straight up, no chaser), and Grandma only did Ovaltine.

I guess they still make it.... who knew?

270 CarleeCork  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:50:28pm

re: #259 NJDhockeyfan

Do they have 3 minute eggs served by an lovely elderly grey-haired woman?


I'm working on the grey hair. My son now calls me the greying mantis, I call them natural highlights. I figure four grandkids entitle me to have grey hair and I do cook great softboiled eggs.

271 Kragar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:52:15pm

And here we go again;

Angle: Muslim law taking hold in parts of US

In a recording of the rally provided to The Associated Press by the Mesquite Local News, a man is heard asking Angle : "I keep hearing about Muslims wanting to take over the United States ... on a TV program just last night, I saw that they are taking over a city in Michigan and the residents of the city, they want them out. They want them out. So, I want to hear your thoughts about that."

Angle responds that "we're talking about a militant terrorist situation, which I believe it isn't a widespread thing, but it is enough that we need to address, and we have been addressing it."

"My thoughts are these, first of all, Dearborn, Michigan, and Frankford, Texas are on American soil, and under constitutional law. Not Sharia law. And I don't know how that happened in the United States," she said. "It seems to me there is something fundamentally wrong with allowing a foreign system of law to even take hold in any municipality or government situation in our United States."

Dearborn, Mich., has a thriving Muslim community. It was not immediately clear why Angle singled out Frankford, Texas, a former town that was annexed into Dallas around 1975.

272 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:52:16pm

re: #270 CarleeCork

I'm working on the grey hair. My son now calls me the greying mantis, I call them natural highlights. I figure four grandkids entitle me to have grey hair and I do cook great softboiled eggs.

That's great

273 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:53:19pm
274 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:53:26pm

re: #271 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And here we go again;

Angle: Muslim law taking hold in parts of US

The only part of Sharia Law that I want, is the part where I don't pay interest.

275 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:54:08pm

re: #273 imp_62

Happening tomorrow:
Image: BakedBeansAndEggOnToast.jpg

I'm there! Where is it?

276 CarleeCork  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:54:10pm

re: #272 Mr Pancakes

That's great


That I have grey hair and I'm getting old? I guess it beats the alternative.

277 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:54:56pm

re: #274 Mr Pancakes

I can't help but notice that you will upding any post to do with breakfast foods.

278 freetoken  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:55:03pm

re: #274 Mr Pancakes

The only part of Sharia Law that I want, is the part where I don't pay interest.

That's worth serious consideration, I believe.

279 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:56:08pm

re: #276 CarleeCork

That I have grey hair and I'm getting old? I guess it beats the alternative.

I'm grey..... I just shave my head...... and no...... I'm not bald.

Men are accepted more with grey hair than women are. It's true, sad to say.

280 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:56:33pm

re: #276 CarleeCork

That I have grey hair and I'm getting old? I guess it beats the alternative.

How so? Would not the alternative be not to age and retain your lustrous youthful - ummm - guessing chestnut brown hair?

281 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:57:12pm

re: #277 imp_62

I can't help but notice that you will upding any post to do with breakfast foods.

In dinner threads you will see a lot of downdings.

282 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:57:22pm

re: #279 Mr Pancakes

I'm grey... I just shave my head... and no... I'm not bald.

Men are accepted more with grey hair than women are. It's true, sad to say.

Johnny Carson had the best grey hair.

283 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:57:53pm

re: #278 freetoken

That's worth serious consideration, I believe.

You still pay investors. You simply do so by way of a participation in positive cashflow generated by the business.

284 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:58:54pm

re: #283 imp_62

You still pay investors. You simply do so by way of a participation in positive cashflow generated by the business.

Party-pooper.

285 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:58:54pm

re: #282 NJDhockeyfan

Johnny Carson had the best grey hair.

Admit it - you're just happy we're not talking about climate change anymore.

286 Kragar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:59:01pm

re: #283 imp_62

You still pay investors. You simply do so by way of a participation in positive cashflow generated by the business.

Perhaps a monthly fee based on the amount of the loan until the loan is paid back.

287 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:59:27pm

re: #285 imp_62

Admit it - you're just happy we're not talking about climate change anymore.

Shhhhhhhh

288 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 9:59:42pm

re: #284 Mr Pancakes

Party-pooper.

Structuring sharia-compliant investments is big business.

289 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:00:13pm

re: #285 imp_62

Admit it - you're just happy we're not talking about climate change anymore.

I was tired of discussing it a long time ago. Eggs & grey hair is much more interesting.

290 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:00:31pm

re: #288 imp_62

Structuring sharia-compliant investments is big business.

It just tells me someone is getting the money.

291 avanti  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:01:06pm

re: #271 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And here we go again;

Angle: Muslim law taking hold in parts of US

I beat you to the post by a few seconds, and that gave me time to check out more on the Catholic/Auschwitz story.

There is a Catholic center 550 meters from the camp and dedicated to interfaith dialog.


At the threshold of Auschwitz.

292 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:01:14pm

re: #275 Mr Pancakes

I'm there! Where is it?

As stated above: Rochester, NY. Second right after the armpit of the world.

293 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:01:50pm

re: #289 NJDhockeyfan

I was tired of discussing it a long time ago. Eggs & grey hair is much more interesting.

I guess Obi ran out of steam....... so...... is this game you call "hockey" played with a ball?

294 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:02:27pm

re: #291 avanti

I beat you to the post by a few seconds, and that gave me time to check out more on the Catholic/Auschwitz story.

There is a Catholic center 550 meters from the camp and dedicated to interfaith dialog.

At the threshold of Auschwitz.

I raised this point a while back and got my teeth kicked in.

295 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:02:32pm

re: #292 imp_62

As stated above: Rochester, NY. Second right after the armpit of the world.

No prob..... I'll be there in the AM..... I hope there will be parking.

296 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:03:45pm

re: #295 Mr Pancakes

No prob... I'll be there in the AM... I hope there will be parking.

Ample free parking. Most of the Kodak and Xerox and Bausch & Lomb emplyees have fled town.

297 CarleeCork  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:03:47pm

re: #280 imp_62

How so? Would not the alternative be not to age and retain your lustrous youthful - ummm - guessing chestnut brown hair?


The alternative is death. I prefer 'natural' highlights. I'm still ok for a grandma of four. Their friends think I'm pretty and cool. What more could I ask for?

298 freetoken  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:04:10pm

re: #283 imp_62

It's something I've thought of bringing up before... but just never got around to writing about it.

Given our economic predicament and financial crisis, it seems to me that doing one of the following:
(1) instituting a very progressive tax system, without brackets but a continuous curve, with the highest percentage rates quite high; or
(2) outlawing usury;
will be necessary for the US to function if we want to maintain some sort of "middle class" (as it is called, though I don't like the term.)

299 FarmerCharlie  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:06:41pm

re: #195 freetoken

We've written quite a bit about the guy:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

The Oregon Petition stuff is just the tip of the iceberg.


I knew that DeFazio had a right wing opponent, and when I heard the interview, I realized that the opponent was a bully; but I did not realize until I got home and Googled him that he was the same kook responsible for the Oregon Project. Interesting site you have here.

300 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:08:02pm

re: #296 imp_62

Ample free parking. Most of the Kodak and Xerox and Bausch & Lomb emplyees have fled town.

Google maps says I'll never make it..... oh well.

301 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:08:28pm

re: #298 freetoken

It's something I've thought of bringing up before... but just never got around to writing about it.

Given our economic predicament and financial crisis, it seems to me that doing one of the following:
(1) instituting a very progressive tax system, without brackets but a continuous curve, with the highest percentage rates quite high; or
(2) outlawing usury;
will be necessary for the US to function if we want to maintain some sort of "middle class" (as it is called, though I don't like the term.)

All very complicated, IMHO. I believe in a flat income tax, with exemptions for the working poor. Then, sales tax hikes and a VAT so that people who consume actually pay for their consumption. If this frees up more disposable income for the rich - awesome. Let them spend it - more money for main street. Let them save it or invest it: drive economic growth. But what do I know - I'm just a simple country banker.

302 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:09:01pm

0re: #293 Mr Pancakes

I guess Obi ran out of steam... so... is this game you call "hockey" played with a ball?

Sticks and a frozen hard disk of vulcanized rubber. I have an old one given to me from a Washington Capitals game and 'Made in GDR' written on the side. (GDR is East Germany)

303 freetoken  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:09:02pm

re: #299 FarmerCharlie

Interesting site you have here.

Charles has created one of the more interesting little corners of the internet, trafficked by a hodgepodge of wayward internet addicts, like me.

304 CarleeCork  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:10:07pm

Later Lizards, parting is such sweet......pancakes.

Stay sticky.

305 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:10:43pm

re: #299 FarmerCharlie

Welcome to LGF. What do you farm?

306 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:11:45pm

re: #297 CarleeCork

The alternative is death. I prefer 'natural' highlights. I'm still ok for a grandma of four. Their friends think I'm pretty and cool. What more could I ask for?

A really nice set of steak knives?

Image: WHS-steak-knives_480.jpg

That's what I am jonesing for.

307 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:11:48pm

re: #302 NJDhockeyfan

0

Sticks and a frozen hard disk of vulcanized rubber. I have an old one given to me from a Washington Capitals game and 'Made in GDR' written on the side. (GDR is East Germany)

Oh..... frozen surface with a disk.....hmmmmm kinda like fast soccer but you can use your hands..... works for me!

308 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:13:23pm

Looks like Charles has opened the door for a while. Should be fun sock puppet stories tomorrow!

309 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:13:34pm

re: #307 Mr Pancakes

Oh... frozen surface with a disk...hmmm kinda like fast soccer but you can use your hands... works for me!

You don't use your hands, you use a wooden hockey stick. It's the only sport I know where all the players use weapons during the game.

310 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:14:13pm

re: #304 CarleeCork

Later Lizards, parting is such sweet...pancakes.

Stay sticky.

Not sure whether to be horny or hungry

311 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:15:19pm

re: #309 NJDhockeyfan

You don't use your hands, you use a wooden hockey stick. It's the only sport I know where all the players use weapons during the game.

Hmmmm jousting?

312 mdey  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:16:30pm

Wow, that was hilarious. I feel sorry for the students that had to sit through this guy's courses.

313 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:17:09pm

re: #311 Mr Pancakes

Hmmm jousting?

Team shuffleboard on ice skates. Similarities between shuffleboard players and ice hockey players: no teeth.

314 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:19:14pm

I can feel this thread running out of steam. Time to determine whether I can safely sleep in my own bed or whether it is the couch for me tonight.

Laters

315 freetoken  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:20:44pm

re: #312 mdey

Robinson left university teaching very many years ago. He's been holed up in this own "institutes" for quite a few years. His only real students have been his children, whom he home-schooled. And, he's sold his home-school curriculum and material to thousands of others.

316 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:20:54pm

re: #311 Mr Pancakes

Hmmm jousting?

Possible. Penalties with the stick include slashing, spearing, butt-ending, cross-checking, high-sticking, and hooking.

317 shutdown  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:22:18pm

re: #316 NJDhockeyfan

Possible. Penalties with the stick include slashing, spearing, butt-ending, cross-checking, high-sticking, and hooking.

you forgot tripping.

good night

318 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:22:42pm

re: #316 NJDhockeyfan

Possible. Penalties with the stick include slashing, spearing, butt-ending, cross-checking, high-sticking, and hooking.

I'm all for any sport that involves "hooking".

319 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:24:46pm

re: #315 freetoken

Robinson left university teaching very many years ago. He's been holed up in this own "institutes" for quite a few years. His only real students have been his children, whom he home-schooled. And, he's sold his home-school curriculum and material to thousands of others.

I actually know a family who use the Robinson curriculum. They moved, so I can't tell you how it's working.

320 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:29:48pm

re: #318 Mr Pancakes

I'm all for any sport that involves "hooking".

Hitting hard is legal and fun to watch. Here is my favorite hit...Scott Stevens hits Eric Lindros and knocks him out. Just beautiful...

321 Vambo  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:32:21pm

re: #5 NJDhockeyfan

I missed this old thread:

GOP Candidate Arthur Robinson: Dump Oil and Nuclear Waste at Sea

He really believes that? What a fucking nimrod.

Dump oil into the sea!!!

WHAT COULD POSSIBLY BE BAD ABOUT THAT.

322 Gus  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:32:51pm
323 lostlakehiker  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:34:41pm

Ack. He's not a scientist, he's one of those types who has to make a name for himself by saying off the wall things and dressing them up in scientific coats.

He's not a doctor, he plays one on TV.

If you're not really all that good at science, you have two choices. You can accept that obscurity and namelessness is your lot. That's the lot of almost everyone, after all.

Or you can go and try your luck on the alternate reality circuit, insisting, to the applause of the ignorant, that you have a special insight. One that, quite coincidentally, aligns nicely with their pet peeves and insecurities.

Well, that's Mr Robinson. Maybe he even believes his rubbish. Self deceit is bred into us; it's an amazingly effective fortifier when you're trying to run a bluff. if you honestly think it's not a bluff.

He has some debating skills. He never gives an inch, never gives a straight answer. He's all fight, on this Maddow show. But there's nothing behind that fighting spirit. No core truth that he can defend.

I won't curse him for a knowing charlatan. Can't be certain. But he for damned sure isn't a scientist.

324 freetoken  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:34:42pm

re: #319 EmmmieG

I actually know a family who use the Robinson curriculum. They moved, so I can't tell you how it's working.

Any child will benefit from significant time investments, face to face, by one or more of their parents. Any parent willing to do the work it takes to homeschool no doubt is helping their child learn not just academic subjects but family bonding also.

Homeschooling works. However, it is also an open door to anti-modernism.

325 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:36:16pm

re: #324 freetoken

Any child will benefit from significant time investments, face to face, by one or more of their parents. Any parent willing to do the work it takes to homeschool no doubt is helping their child learn not just academic subjects but family bonding also.

Homeschooling works. However, it is also an open door to anti-modernism.

Ironically, the point of the Robinson method is giving them the curriculum and letting them do it.

However, you are all home all day, so it's not like you're not interacting. Or so I think. I never did ask if they interact as much as other families.

326 Gus  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:39:22pm
327 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:39:55pm

Princess finally got home from her event. Good night.

328 Gus  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:41:31pm

Nez Perce Brave - 1899

Image: Nez-Perce-Brave.jpg

329 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:43:19pm

Someone makes a comment about the "Power of Pussy", and over 120 comments go by without anyone linking this (NSFWish) music video?

I am disappoint.

330 darthstar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:43:42pm

The Freak!
The Freak!
The Freak was on fire!
We don't need no closer,
Let the motherfucker throw!

The ninth inning was really something to watch. Lincecum was set and ready to throw before the batters had both feet down in the box, and as soon as the bat got behind their ear, the ball was in flight. 14 strike-outs. Fuckin' amazing.

331 freetoken  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:44:41pm

re: #325 EmmmieG

From reading Robinson's site I gather that his "method" is very heavy on having the child sit and read while the parent is nearby but not saying very much until the child asks a question.

My point is, though, that the parent is there.

332 Gus  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:45:16pm

re: #329 Slumbering Behemoth

Someone makes a comment about the "Power of Pussy", and over 120 comments go by without anyone linking this (NSFWish) music video?

I am disappoint.

Where've you been hiding?

333 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:50:08pm

re: #329 Slumbering Behemoth

Someone makes a comment about the "Power of Pussy", and over 120 comments go by without anyone linking this (NSFWish) music video?

I am disappoint.

That was me..... I don't know why everyone is whinging about AGW when we have the untapped power of pussy!

334 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:51:56pm

An associate of Jerry Brown calls Meg Whitman a "whore" over pension reform (AUDIO)

In a private conversation that was inadvertently taped by a voicemail machine, an associate of Democratic gubernatorial candidate Jerry Brown can be heard referring to his Republican opponent Meg Whitman as a “whore” for cutting a deal protecting law enforcement pensions as the two candidates competed for police endorsements.

No class. Disagreeing with the issues is fine but calling her a whore is over the line. What a douchebag.

335 Gus  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:55:53pm

Photochromes are a trip. They're from around 1890 to 1900. This one is from Germany.

[Link: www.old-picture.com...]

Looks like a real live gnome in the frame.

336 darthstar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:56:19pm

re: #334 NJDhockeyfan

An associate of Jerry Brown calls Meg Whitman a "whore" over pension reform (AUDIO)

No class. Disagreeing with the issues is fine but calling her a whore is over the line. What a douchebag.

She is a bit of a whore though.
/

337 3eff Jeff  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:57:50pm

Ok, I'm late, but I wanted to address some technical points. First, Robinson is an idiot. A second and a half of speed-of-light travel will get you 3/4s of a round trip to the moon, but that ignores routing delays, which tend to swamp speed-of-light transit time. These are incurred at the satellite and both ends, not to mention any networking hardware between Maddow's studio and the room where the satellite uplink hardware is located. Routing delays are usually 3-6x as long as the actual speed-of-light transit time. For the jump up to geostationary orbit and back, the round trip is 44,000 miles give or take, which is roughly 70,000 klicks. Speed of light is 300,000kps and dividing gives you about a quarter of a second. So a second and a half is a pretty reasonable delay given the number of other links in the system, bandwidth and processing requirements.

Second, some of you know I'm pretty pro-nuclear. In fact, I would count myself solidly amongst the "buck up, a little radiation isn't going to hurt you, you pansies" crowd. Grinding up spent fuel pellets and dispersing the waste across the country is a terrible idea. Yes, there is scientific evidence that we may need a little radiation, but we already get that radiation. We're exposed to it continuously in the form of natural background radiation (from space and radioactive elements in the ground, like Uranium). A fine radioactive dust spread across the country will cause cancer (whether in the air or in water). I'm not even silly enough to try and argue against that. No matter how dumb prop 65 warnings are.

Diluting it in the ocean will work Ok for the short term (France does this, if not right now, they did it in the recent past). By short term, I mean at least a few decades, possibly a century. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be damaging to something. Just that we likely wouldn't notice for that initial time period. It is certainly not a very responsible thing to do. We should be storing it in stable formations or into subduction zones. Honestly, Nevada should offer the Federal Government a deal where the state charges for use of Yucca Mountain. If the state and its citizens were getting Alaska-oil style kickbacks (not necessarily as large, and maybe in a different form--significantly better infrastructure, etc.) for taking the country's waste, it would be an easier sell, and we could move on.

338 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:58:55pm

re: #334 NJDhockeyfan

An associate of Jerry Brown calls Meg Whitman a "whore" over pension reform (AUDIO)

No class. Disagreeing with the issues is fine but calling her a whore is over the line. What a douchebag.

That race is the epitome of bad politics.

339 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:00:13pm

re: #336 darthstar

She is a bit of a whore though.
/

So is Gloria Allred.
/

340 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:01:04pm

re: #332 Gus 802

Oh, you know. Going to and fro upon the earth, and walking up and down upon it. My usual gig. The pay sucks but the bennies are great.

I've also been helping a buddy of mine fix up some things after work hours on this spot he is renting. I know a fair bit about painting and electrical work, some more than others about plumbing, but I am pretty ignorant about the flooring, framing, roofing, hammer and nail stuff, which is what we've been doing.

The best part is that I am just ignorant enough about that stuff not to know how hard it can be, so I just jump in and have fun ("What's that you say? Tri-Tip and beer? I'm there!"). The cool part is I'm learning some new stuff, plus I get to hang out with a good friend that I don't often see. Did I also mention there's Tri-Tip and beer?

341 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:02:37pm

re: #340 Slumbering Behemoth

Oh, you know. Going to and fro upon the earth, and walking up and down upon it. My usual gig. The pay sucks but the bennies are great.

I've also been helping a buddy of mine fix up some things after work hours on this spot he is renting. I know a fair bit about painting and electrical work, some more than others about plumbing, but I am pretty ignorant about the flooring, framing, roofing, hammer and nail stuff, which is what we've been doing.

The best part is that I am just ignorant enough about that stuff not to know how hard it can be, so I just jump in and have fun ("What's that you say? Tri-Tip and beer? I'm there!"). The cool part is I'm learning some new stuff, plus I get to hang out with a good friend that I don't often see. Did I also mention there's Tri-Tip and beer?

Can't pass up a good tri-tip...... homegrown California bbq.

342 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:02:51pm

Crazy right wingers running for Congress gotta catch them all, just like Pokemon.

343 Gus  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:03:41pm

re: #340 Slumbering Behemoth

Oh, you know. Going to and fro upon the earth, and walking up and down upon it. My usual gig. The pay sucks but the bennies are great.

I've also been helping a buddy of mine fix up some things after work hours on this spot he is renting. I know a fair bit about painting and electrical work, some more than others about plumbing, but I am pretty ignorant about the flooring, framing, roofing, hammer and nail stuff, which is what we've been doing.

The best part is that I am just ignorant enough about that stuff not to know how hard it can be, so I just jump in and have fun ("What's that you say? Tri-Tip and beer? I'm there!"). The cool part is I'm learning some new stuff, plus I get to hang out with a good friend that I don't often see. Did I also mention there's Tri-Tip and beer?

Ah, OK. Been busy I see. Was wondering where you went off to. Haven't seen you around these parts for weeks. Good to see you back.

344 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:05:01pm

It's past my bedtime. Have a great night my scaly friends.

345 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:05:24pm

Seriously though this guy is another nut, he wants to dump off in to the oceans? Not only is that wrong but it will ruin the fishing industry too. Not to mention ruin the lives of the awesome dolphins who kick ass.

346 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:05:55pm

re: #344 NJDhockeyfan

It's past my bedtime. Have a great night my scaly friends.

Goodnight NJD

347 Gus  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:05:58pm

George Custer without the hat and gear.

Image: General-George-Armstrong-Custer.jpg

348 palomino  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:07:16pm

re: #334 NJDhockeyfan

An associate of Jerry Brown calls Meg Whitman a "whore" over pension reform (AUDIO)

No class. Disagreeing with the issues is fine but calling her a whore is over the line. What a douchebag.

Don't be naive. In "private conversations inadvertently taped" these kinds of things are said all the time. There's a reason they say, "Politics ain't beanbag."

Do you really think Rove and Carville don't talk about people this way? Maybe not nice, but it's life in the big city.

349 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:08:36pm

re: #333 Mr Pancakes

That was me... I don't know why everyone is whinging about AGW when we have the untapped power of pussy!

If only we could harness that power, Faster Than Light Speed would be ours to command, and we could discover the mysteries of the universe as one united people.

/And if we could harness the power of the Bee-Jay, we could fold space, time, and reality, easily traversing multiple universes that exist outside the grasp of mortal men in the blink of an eye.

350 3eff Jeff  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:13:27pm

Alright, drive-by technical comment for me tonight. I'm going to bed, so any challenges to my comment or accusations of craziness on my part won't be countered by misunderstandings of satellite communication and denials of easily sourced statements written by my own hand. I'm just going to be sleeping.

Goodnight all.

351 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:14:12pm

re: #349 Slumbering Behemoth

If only we could harness that power, Faster Than Light Speed would be ours to command, and we could discover the mysteries of the universe as one united people.

/And if we could harness the power of the Bee-Jay, we could fold space, time, and reality, easily traversing multiple universes that exist outside the grasp of mortal men in the blink of an eye.

I'm working on it.......

352 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:16:41pm

re: #349 Slumbering Behemoth

If only we could harness that power, Faster Than Light Speed would be ours to command, and we could discover the mysteries of the universe as one united people.

/And if we could harness the power of the Bee-Jay, we could fold space, time, and reality, easily traversing multiple universes that exist outside the grasp of mortal men in the blink of an eye.

Believe me...... If I discover any breakthroughs to alleviate AGW..... I'll post them here.

353 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:17:08pm

re: #341 Mr Pancakes

Can't pass up a good tri-tip... homegrown California bbq.

Um, it's spelled Tri-Tip. Capital "T's" always, never lower case. I'll thank you not to blaspheme the divine beef thusly in my presence.

re: #343 Gus 802

Ah, OK. Been busy I see. Was wondering where you went off to. Haven't seen you around these parts for weeks. Good to see you back.

FFS! Has it been that long? I guess time flies when your smashing your thumb.

354 Gus  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:17:27pm

Dutch queen OKs government backed by Geert Wilders

Dutch Queen Beatrix has asked the leader of the Liberal VVD party to form a cabinet backed by the party of anti-Islamist populist Geert Wilders.

Mark Rutte will now head a centre-right coalition with the Christian Democrats (CDA).

The minority cabinet will have support of Mr Wilders' Freedom Party (PVV), which will remain outside the government.

The government says it plans to ban the full Islamic veil in the Netherlands.

It also wants to cut the budget by 18bn euros ($24bn; £15bn) by 2015, imposes curbs on immigration and increase the number of police officers.

The Liberals (VVD) and CDA hold 52 seats in the 150-member parliament and will have to rely on the PVV's 24 MPs to get legislation passed.

The coalition deal has angered some CDA MPs who do not want to work with Mr Wilders...

Not exactly complete control but he sure has more power than ever before.

355 Gus  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:17:53pm

re: #353 Slumbering Behemoth

Um, it's spelled Tri-Tip. Capital "T's" always, never lower case. I'll thank you not to blaspheme the divine beef thusly in my presence.

re: #343 Gus 802

FFS! Has it been that long? I guess time flies when your smashing your thumb.

I think it's been about a month.

356 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:20:51pm

re: #353 Slumbering Behemoth

Um, it's spelled Tri-Tip. Capital "T's" always, never lower case. I'll thank you not to blaspheme the divine beef thusly in my presence.

Didn't know that......... I love Tri-Tip, Fillet Mignon, and Rib-Eye.

357 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:21:27pm

re: #351 Mr Pancakes

I'm working on it...

So. Many. Jokes.

Can't. Focus. On. One.

*brrzzzt*

358 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:24:41pm

re: #357 Slumbering Behemoth

So. Many. Jokes.

Can't. Focus. On. One.

*brrzzzt*

I'm doing major research.... and Lud says he's a scientist....... shaaa.

359 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:28:14pm

re: #355 Gus 802

Couldn't be. That would mean I fucked up and accidentally got a life./

Only seems like a week, tops. Been busier than I thought, I guess. Have I missed anything important?

360 palomino  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:28:37pm

Maddow and Anderson Cooper suffer from the same deficiency. They let their blowhard loudmouth guests babble on and on, and walk all over them.

People like Matthews and O'Reilly may be boorish, but at least they know who's running the show that bears their name.

361 Gus  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:30:04pm

re: #359 Slumbering Behemoth

Couldn't be. That would mean I fucked up and accidentally got a life./

Only seems like a week, tops. Been busier than I thought, I guess. Have I missed anything important?

Not much really other than a few bannings. Everyone seems to be doing OK health wise.

362 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:30:13pm

Goodnight all.

363 Gus  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:31:51pm

Oh brother. Last night I was watching some stupid Youtubers and their feud videos. So boring. So obnoxious.

364 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:32:17pm

re: #361 Gus 802

Not much really other than a few bannings.

Anyone I know, or just the usual sock puppet/sleeper accounts?

365 Gus  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:34:34pm

re: #364 Slumbering Behemoth

Anyone I know, or just the usual sock puppet/sleeper accounts?

Mostly the usual sock puppets. I don't know. Perhaps one or two long time members.

366 Summer Seale  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:41:52pm

Wow, Art Robinson is such a rude fucking asshole. This guy wants to sit in office where the entire point of politics is compromise with several parties, and he can't even listen to anyone but his own ugly unceasing voice just to shut everyone else up around him?

What an ignorant asshat.

367 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:56:23pm

re: #365 Gus 802

As it was. As it is. As it ever will be.

re: #366 Summer

Okay, I am gonna hafta watch this video now.

368 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:02:38am

re: #367 Slumbering Behemoth

As it was. As it is. As it ever will be.

re: #366 Summer

Okay, I am gonna hafta watch this video now.

I figure by about the 2 minute mark you'll wish you could deliver a round house pimp slap to this moron.

369 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:08:17am

Must sleep. Later all.

370 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:13:03am

Hoe. Lee. Shit.

Note to Mr. Robinson (and everyone else for that matter):

Do not, I repeat, DO NOT show up to an interview that sloppy drunk if you intend to discuss any topic that exists on a plane higher than the discussion of a Michael Bay film.

Unless you're Christopher Hitchens.

371 freetoken  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:19:08am

re: #370 Slumbering Behemoth

Except he's not drunk - that's him sober!

372 AK-47%  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:22:56am

Robinson: "You have just strung together a bunch of lies""

Maddow: "I am quoting from your own newsletter!"

373 freetoken  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:34:20am

Since we're still on the nutbag Robinson, it should be noted that oft-attacked scientists Michael Mann has an editorial in the Fri Washington Post:

Get the anti-science bent out of politics

As usual, the early comments show that the wingnut contingent is out early doing their thing.

374 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:35:43am

It's 2:35 AM, and I sit down to discuss fools.

375 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:36:32am

re: #371 freetoken

Except he's not drunk - that's him sober!

I'd have to see a BAC test to convince me of that. The way he was swiveling that chair about, coupled with his instantaneously combative attitude and rambling accusations...

re: #372 ralphieboy

She should have just stopped trying engage him, and simply let him gibber on.

376 boxhead  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:39:01am

Typical non stop talking skills crazies have. Why don't they need to breath? Are they zombies? Automatons? I bet he is immune to water boarding. He is the guy at the bar that is the buzz kill. You know the guy. Everyone knows not to make eye contact. Cause if you do, he will come over and talk you sober. After spending good money on fine booze these types will work your ear so hard that your alcohol blood level will be 0.000.

ran into one of those tonight... arrrrr

377 freetoken  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:43:24am

re: #374 Decatur Deb

It's 2:35 AM, and I sit down to discuss fools.

378 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:43:50am

Sounds like dinner at my in-laws.

379 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:45:47am

re: #378 Decatur Deb

re: #377 freetoken

The Maddow interview, not the mp3. It's fairly cool.

380 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:48:56am

re: #377 freetoken

That's not the Kawai operatic piece at the end of Avalon, but it's very much like it. What is it?

381 boxhead  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:49:09am

dude can't remember that he said AIDS was fake only 15 years ago. damn this is hard to listen too. He is killing my buzz via teh intertubes....

382 freetoken  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:51:39am

re: #380 Decatur Deb

The title is on the Flash gadget. It's from LOTR Return of the King. It's the music for the climax, I believe.

383 boxhead  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:54:00am

at 15 min Maddow is stepping over the dude. ahh... Maddow is explaining why it seems she is stepping over him cause the 1.5 sec latency which the dude dismissed cause he thinks the satellite feed is speed of light. Obviously he is not a network dude.

384 boxhead  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:54:52am

re: #383 boxhead

at 15 min Maddow is stepping over the dude. ahh... Maddow is explaining why it seems she is stepping over him cause the 1.5 sec latency which the dude dismissed cause he thinks the satellite feed is speed of light. Obviously he is not a network dude.

a few too many dudes in that post... :p

385 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:01:20am

re: #383 boxhead

By 15 mins, she should have targeted his studio with fool-seeking missiles.

386 boxhead  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:04:01am

re: #385 Decatur Deb

By 15 mins, she should have targeted his studio with fool-seeking missiles.

LOL... damn how I wish fool detecting was real... Just think how much better going to bars and clubs would be... heh

387 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:09:35am

re: #386 boxhead

There was a great 50's sci-fi movie in which aliens who wanted our planet gave each of our government blocs little capsules with topo coordinate inputs. When activated, the capsule vanished and killed all humans within x,000 square miles of the target. The climax came when a scientist discovered the aliens had a moral streak, and that Mode 2 settings only killed the assholes within the effect radius. In the end the surviving non-assholes invited the non-asshole aliens to visit.

388 boxhead  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:11:50am

re: #387 Decatur Deb

There was a great 50's sci-fi movie in which aliens who wanted our planet gave each of our government blocs little capsules with topo coordinate inputs. When activated, the capsule vanished and killed all humans within x,000 square miles of the target. The climax came when a scientist discovered the aliens had a moral streak, and that Mode 2 settings only killed the assholes within the effect radius. In the end the surviving non-assholes invited the non-asshole aliens to visit.

lol... can you find the name of the movie? Just think what Mystery Science Theater would have done with that... :)

389 boxhead  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:14:27am

mmmmmm sleepy time now... late

390 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:14:31am

re: #388 boxhead

escapes me completely. It was a B&W B movie, with a scientist like Sam Jaffee testing the capsules in a little life raft. A Google of "kill+asshole" will not return useful results.

391 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:17:34am

re: #389 boxhead

mmm sleepy time now... late

Get some sleep. I'm about to start the 2nd pot of coffee.

392 harlequinade  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:29:46am

re: #137 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Look at your post, now at mine. Now back to your post, now back to mine. Sadly, your post isn't mine, but if you stopped trolling and started reading it could look like mine. Look down, look up, where are you? You're scrolling through threads, writing the post your post could look like. What did you post? Back to mine, it's a reply saying something you want to hear. Look again, the post is now diamonds.

I want that framed and on a wall

393 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:00:51am

What an unbearable jackass this man is.

For the record, Robinson is a failed biochemist. He is not in any position to comment on the science of AGW as if this were his area of expertise.

However, smearing AGW has been stock and trade for some time as he was a close associate of Frederick Steitz. Readers here might remember Steitz as the RJ Reynolds consultant who promoted tobacco and developed the strategy for clouding the issue in the public mind about the dangers of cigarettes. Steitz then went on to found the Marshall institute, to campaign for conservative/business causes. and later became a leading industry shill against AGW.

He and Robinson were the people who sent out the infamous OISM petition, which was fraudulently represented as being from the National Academy, against AGW. OISM is Robinson's institute. Both Steitz and Robinson were censured by the National Academy for this fraud. Further the petition was worded in a way to ask for more study, and then used as a political tool claiming that the signers were against AGW. Many thought it was from a kosher source, and said something different than what was later presented, by the fraud team of Robinson and Steitz. Many have tried to have their names removed. Many listed ever even signed. Many others who did sign aren't even scientists at all - or even hold a bachelor's degree in a physical science, let alone actual Climate science.

Now both Steitz and Robinson are remarkable creatures. Steitz was a good scientist who simply decided to go over to the dark side and make a lot of money even if it meant lying about science. Robinson, on the other hand, is a raving freakazoid nut sandwich who once could do science, but suffered a breakdown.

In addition to being an AGW denirer, Robinson is an HIV denier. He believes that hormesis applies to radiation. Now hormesis is the basis behind homeopathy. Homeopathy is complete bunk. However, hormesis is real for certain chemical interactions in the body. In some cases, a small dosage of a drug or a poison can elicit a large counter response from the body. In other words, with some toxins, in small dose, receptors in your body might trigger your body to go into overdrive to repair what the toxin would do in a larger dose.

This is a biochemical phenomena that only occurs for certain compounds under certain situations. Radiation - and in particular ionizing radiation, work entire differently. That is a physical interaction and not a chemical one with a totally different sort of mechanism. However, the body does have repair mechanisms against background radiation. This idea was studied thoroughly. Multiple studies produced by the national Academy amongst others showed that hormesis does not apply to radiation.

Robinson was once a good scientist. He went insane and became a fraud and an utter jackass along the way.

394 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:03:23am

re: #388 boxhead

lol... can you find the name of the movie? Just think what Mystery Science Theater would have done with that... :)

Found it: The 27th Day! (Great use of insomnia.)

[Link: classicmovieguide.com...]

395 Summer Seale  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:22:22am

re: #393 LudwigVanQuixote

You won me over at "unbearable jackass". The rest was just icing on the cake and necessary reasoning and explanation as well of course. =)

396 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:29:59am

re: #165 NJDhockeyfan

There was record breaking cooling in a lot of places too. Big fucking deal. Mother nature does that all the time.

Le sigh

397 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:31:07am

re: #125 NJDhockeyfan

The climate has been changing for millions of years and they just decided a few years ago that global warming is the fault of humans? That's why I don't believe it yet.

le dubble sigh

398 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:34:20am

re: #397 WindUpBird

le dubble sigh

I had to upding the guy. He's wrong, perhaps willfully so, but he's not a frother like TPGOP Candidate Robinson.

399 AK-47%  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:39:26am

I think the logic is this: science is bad, therefore bad scientists are good.

400 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:42:36am

re: #398 Decatur Deb

I had to upding the guy. He's wrong, perhaps willfully so, but he's not a frother like TPGOP Candidate Robinson.

The sigh accurately conveys my feelings on the matter, which are more just resignation, politics trumps science

401 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:44:14am

I can't stand Lou Dobbs so anyone who is in his face, I'm pretty okay with that [Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

402 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:49:29am

A little more from Robinson that should tell you everything you need to know about what sort of "scientist" he has become...

From: [Link: www.robinsoncurriculum.com...]

Healthy social, moral, and religious standards are also a very important part of college preparation. This is especially true of students in science and engineering, since Christian colleges are lacking in these subjects. This forces the student to attend a secular college. A young man or woman must be very well prepared in order to resist the temptations and pressures of these places. Everyone, no matter how well prepared, is susceptible to peer pressure. so this exposure should be limited.

...

College is an opportunity to gain knowledge and credentials — especially in science, engineering, and other specialties. At present, it is also a dangerous time which can threaten an extended family. Eventually, this threat will be removed by homeschool universities. There is reason to hope that such universities, accredited and of good quality may be only a few years away.

Robinson is obsessed with surviving a nuclear war. He wrote a book (or rather collected materieal written by other folks) with Gary North. Here is his buddy North.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: www.oism.org...]

Of course, Robinson is tightly connected with the Heartland institute as well... go figure.

Here is his institute's home page. It is important to note that two of the six faculty are his sons, who were entirely home schooled by him.

403 AK-47%  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:55:42am

How to become a cockroach...

404 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:56:57am

re: #402 LudwigVanQuixote

Fortunately, Nate Silver's 538 model gives his Democratic opponent a 99.9% chance. Robinson will be part of the TPGOP post-election reassessment.

405 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:05:17am

re: #404 Decatur Deb

Fortunately, Nate Silver's 538 model gives his Democratic opponent a 99.9% chance. Robinson will be part of the TPGOP post-election reassessment.

Robinson's district he's running for is Eugene. So basically he'd have to get Oregon hippies, stoners, and college kids to vote for him :D

406 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:07:58am

Ms. O'Donnell's new video is up on Gawker. It's still shot on the "Slough of Despond" set.

[Link: gawker.com...]

407 AK-47%  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:28:31am

She didn't go to Yale. But Bush did.

408 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 4:01:41am

The new Texas textbooks are out:


SciMathHistory

//

409 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 4:07:27am

re: #408 Obdicut

That would be funny if it weren't true.

410 Kronocide  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 4:21:25am

O.M.F.G. Art Robinson is disturbingly irritating, not to mention nucking futz. My only criticism of Maddow is for not cutting him off sooner, but then again they had a segment to fill.

He did a great job of being the champion and the victim!

411 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 4:26:03am

BBL

412 garhighway  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:12:54am

Morning, all.

OT:

A nice piece by Krugman regarding the cancelled rail tunnel under the Hudson.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

413 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:13:06am

To be is to do - Socrates
To do is to be - Sarte
Do be do be do - Sinatra

414 garhighway  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:14:33am

Also:

Congrats to the Nobel Committee for their choice on the Peace Prize:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

415 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:15:43am

re: #403 ralphieboy

Kafka? Is that you?

416 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:18:30am

re: #414 garhighway

Absolutely! Refreshing.

417 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:29:06am

Good morning lizards!

418 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:30:30am

re: #417 NJDhockeyfan

"Slapshot" was on yesterday. Watched it, told my wife that those guys looked just like my friend.

419 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:34:25am

re: #418 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

"Slapshot" was on yesterday. Watched it, told my wife that those guys looked just like my friend.

Heh. I saw Paul Newman say that was his favorite movie that he made. It is a classic movie.

420 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:36:37am

re: #419 NJDhockeyfan

I thought this was an interesting factoid...

The character of "#7 Clarence 'Screaming Buffalo' Swamptown" was played by Joe Nolan who, during a brief minor league career in the 1950's, accumulated almost one thousand penalty minutes in 6 seasons, including one with the Johnstown Jets.


From IMDB

421 Ericus58  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:41:45am

re: #229 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And this idiot did not realize that.

You are not an idiot, my Friend.

422 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:44:46am

re: #420 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I thought this was an interesting factoid...


From IMDB

There were quite a few hockey players in the movie including most of the Johnstown Jets players. Also some parts of the movie were based on true stories like the scene when one of the Hanson brothers jumped into the stands and began punching the fans.

423 ihateronpaul  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:45:29am

Why is it that idiot republicans expect me to believe all the pro-war propaganda they spew when they don't even live in this plane of reality??

424 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:48:11am

U.S. Economy Lost Far More Jobs Than Expected Last Month

The economy shed 95,000 nonfarm jobs in September, the Labor Department reported Friday, with most of the decline the result of the layoffs by local governments and of temporary decennial Census workers.

The steep drop was far worse than economists had been predicting.

While total government jobs fell by 159,000, private sector companies added 64,000 jobs last month. The unemployment rate, which measures the percentage of workers who are actively looking for but unable to find jobs, stayed flat at 9.6 percent.

What a wonderful recovery summer we had!
/

425 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:48:28am

re: #423 ihateronpaul

Why is it that idiot republicans expect me to believe all the pro-war propaganda they spew when they don't even live in this plane of reality??

You've now identified yourself as someone capable of free thought. The Happiness Patrol will be along shortly to escort you to the Disintegration Chamber. All Hail the Computer!

///

426 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:49:25am

re: #423 ihateronpaul

Why is it that idiot republicans expect me to believe all the pro-war propaganda they spew when they don't even live in this plane of reality??

What pro-war propaganda?

427 Lidane  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:51:34am

Completely OT, but if I ever agree to writing another group term paper, feel free to mock me ruthlessly. It's hard enough to edit the words of one person who has grammar issues, but when the other person sends you ten pages of unsourced writing, it's enough to drive me to drink at 8am. =P

428 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:52:23am

re: #424 NJDhockeyfan

While total government jobs fell by 159,000, private sector companies added 64,000 jobs last month.

Government jobs were cut, and private sector jobs increased.

You think that's a bad thing? You'd rather see more government jobs?

429 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:52:39am

re: #427 Lidane

Are you nuts? Send it back and tell them to source it, and tell them you deleted it. Then delete it.

430 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:52:57am

re: #427 Lidane

Send it right back at them, with a copy of the MLA style guide attached.

431 Lidane  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:53:30am

re: #429 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I already emailed her and demanded sources. I'm waiting for her to reply.

Her sections of the paper can wait. I'm dealing with the grammar issues person and my own sections in the meantime.

432 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:54:41am

re: #431 Lidane

Be glad I'm not in your group.

I had four years of Grammar I.

433 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:54:45am

re: #427 Lidane

Completely OT, but if I ever agree to writing another group term paper, feel free to mock me ruthlessly. It's hard enough to edit the words of one person who has grammar issues, but when the other person sends you ten pages of unsourced writing, it's enough to drive me to drink at 8am. =P

Isn't academic and/or technical writing a bitch? I took a college course in technical writing at the same time as a composition course. Your brain gets pulled two ways since the general rules for one style often directly contradict the general rules for the other.

And unsourced material is essentially worthless in most places unless you're writing a novel.

434 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:56:01am

re: #433 oaktree

My mom has been having to deal with people citing Wikipedia for quite awhile now.

Not to mention just heaps of plagiarism.

435 Lidane  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:57:31am

re: #432 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Grammar's not that big a deal. The reason that person has issues is because she's Egyptian, so English isn't her first language anyway. I get that, and can turn her words into what they're supposed to be.

It's the ten pages of writing without any sources at all that kills me. WTF? This is graduate school. You can't do that.

436 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:57:45am

re: #434 Obdicut

Steal from one source? Plagiarism.

Steal from several sources? Research.

437 freetoken  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:59:48am

re: #412 garhighway

Makes me wonder if Christie isn't just trying to get his bona fides with the far-right, which as a group detest public transit.

438 freetoken  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:01:11am

BTW, unemployment is expected to hover around where it is now for a very long time. This will be fodder for the political madness.

439 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:01:22am

re: #428 Obdicut

Government jobs were cut, and private sector jobs increased.

You think that's a bad thing? You'd rather see more government jobs?

Gallup has a different number...

Gallup Finds U.S. Unemployment at 10.1% in September

Unemployment, as measured by Gallup without seasonal adjustment, increased to 10.1% in September -- up sharply from 9.3% in August and 8.9% in July. Much of this increase came during the second half of the month -- the unemployment rate was 9.4% in mid-September -- and therefore is unlikely to be picked up in the government's unemployment report on Friday.

Do you see that as a good thing?

440 Lidane  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:02:01am

re: #434 Obdicut

My professors don't allow Wikipedia. If they see it, they immediately break out in hives and they'll tell you to go back and find a real source instead.

441 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:04:03am

re: #440 Lidane

My professors don't allow Wikipedia. If they see it, they immediately break out in hives and they'll tell you to go back and find a real source instead.

It's a good place to find links to actual sources but I can understand why they don't like Wiki. It isn't totally trustworthy.

442 freetoken  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:04:30am

re: #440 Lidane

Yet most articles at Wikipedia are sourced... so if you just use the sources that Wikipedia uses, the teachers likely won't know the difference.

443 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:05:11am

re: #439 NJDhockeyfan

What are you talking about, dude?

The link you cited said the government shed jobs and the private sector added jobs. The private sector added jobs. That is a good thing, as I'm sure you agree. That government jobs were shed I don't think is a good thing, but I'd figure that you would.

444 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:05:32am

re: #434 Obdicut

My mom has been having to deal with people citing Wikipedia for quite awhile now.

Not to mention just heaps of plagiarism.

My brother usually assigns his classes two papers to do. The first one is a fairly short paper, but he hands out a guide that covers how he wants references done and includes some general style tips. And this is fairly important since science papers/articles need to be formatted and cited in a specific fashion in order to get published.

Then he breaks out the red pen. He'll reject submissions multiple times, especially if they ignore the rules for citing sources. (And he has a specific entry that mentions that Wikipedia and many other web-sites are *not* acceptable as primary references.)

The other thing he notices a lot is that the students have been trained in writing a certain way by composition courses and that the requirements for academic writing are quite different. Keep it short and to the point, and keep using the same terms consistently. The flowery prose belongs elsewhere.

445 Lidane  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:05:38am

re: #442 freetoken

They don't care if you use the source of the Wiki article. They just don't want to see Wikipedia cited anywhere, because they don't consider it academic.

446 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:08:54am

The GOP - bought and paid for by foreign interests.

And good morning.

447 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:09:23am

re: #441 NJDhockeyfan

It's a good place to find links to actual sources but I can understand why they don't like Wiki. It isn't totally trustworthy.

I looked up the movie "Cloverfield" on Wiki once, had the director as Michael J. Fox.

I shit you not.

448 freetoken  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:10:06am

re: #446 iossarian

Sad to say, but Art Robinson is 100% American and 100% Americanism.

449 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:10:27am

re: #443 Obdicut

What are you talking about, dude?

The link you cited said the government shed jobs and the private sector added jobs. The private sector added jobs. That is a good thing, as I'm sure you agree. That government jobs were shed I don't think is a good thing, but I'd figure that you would.

OK, I'll start partying then.

450 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:13:16am

re: #436 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Steal from one source? Plagiarism.

Steal from several sources? Research.

451 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:14:03am

re: #449 NJDhockeyfan

There's no call for partying. We're going to have high unemployment for awhile, I think, since corporations will be busy adding jobs in China, India, and other places where they don't have to worry about pesky things like workers rights. A recent attempt by the Democrats to close down a tax loophole that literally rewards US Corporations for moving jobs out of the country failed thanks to the GOP. A recent small business initiative by Obama has me somewhat hopeful, but the stratification of wealth over the past twenty years means that there's much less capital available in the middle class for entrepreneurship, and a lot more locked up at the top.

452 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:14:28am

The politicians (on both sides) appear to have raised "shitloads" of money... based on my research primarily focused on fast-forwarding through DVR'd political ads.

453 Lidane  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:16:41am

re: #430 Obdicut

Send it right back at them, with a copy of the MLA APA style guide attached.

This prof wants APA. That's another source of angst, since MLA was ruthlessly beaten into me in undergrad. Still, it's not so bad. I'm shamelessly borrowing style tips from articles in the Harvard Business Review. If it's academic enough for them, it will work for this prof.

454 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:16:58am

re: #451 Obdicut

There's no call for partying. We're going to have high unemployment for awhile, I think, since corporations will be busy adding jobs in China, India, and other places where they don't have to worry about pesky things like workers rights. A recent attempt by the Democrats to close down a tax loophole that literally rewards US Corporations for moving jobs out of the country failed thanks to the GOP. A recent small business initiative by Obama has me somewhat hopeful, but the stratification of wealth over the past twenty years means that there's much less capital available in the middle class for entrepreneurship, and a lot more locked up at the top.

And small businesses will have it rough since they benefit from a more robust economy where the middle and lower classes have money to spend on things outside the bare essentials. (And I hope hot sauce is one of them...)

455 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:17:41am

re: #452 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The politicians (on both sides) appear to have raised "shitloads" of money... based on my research primarily focused on fast-forwarding through DVR'd political ads.

Yes, but the decision to allow anonymous funding (and hence open the door to foreign investment in our political campaigns) was a party-line GOP Supreme Court decision.

456 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:20:04am

re: #455 iossarian

And appears to have helped the television stations earn millions in revenue.

457 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:21:17am

re: #456 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

And appears to have helped the television stations earn millions in revenue.

Definitely a decision that Rupert Murdoch-- and his Saudi co-owners-- liked.

458 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:21:22am

re: #456 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm sure that News Corporation employs some very highly paid tax accountants.

459 freetoken  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:21:50am

re: #451 Obdicut

Agree that outsourcing labor to cheaper countries does mean that employment in the US is slow to build.

Yet there is even a more fundamental problem - what Americans value today does not require a great deal of local labor. We simply don't make choices that exploit the labor that is available. We would rather not invest in the physical plant - that which exists around us. We really do have a need to work on water supplies, sewers, railroads, reconstructing old neighborhoods, etc. Yet we tend to "invest" in highly transient interests that have little value past a few years, and are easy to make.

460 freetoken  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:22:36am

re: #451 Obdicut

Agree that outsourcing labor to cheaper countries does mean that employment in the US is slow to build.

Yet there is even a more fundamental problem - what Americans value today does not require a great deal of local labor. We simply don't make choices that exploit the labor that is available. We would rather not invest in the physical plant - that which exists around us. We really do have a need to work on water supplies, sewers, railroads, reconstructing old neighborhoods, etc. Yet we tend to "invest" in highly transient interests that have little value past a few years, and are easy to make.

461 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:23:49am

re: #458 iossarian

re: #457 Obdicut

So... only folks on the right are using this? Gosh, they must be smart.

462 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:24:21am

re: #459 freetoken

I'd agree with the point about labor-- we don't invest in the infrastructure and small-scale physical plant stuff, but when it comes to automation and the like, we do invest a lot-- bot those investments tend to cut jobs rather than increase them.

US manufacturing capacity has not gone down, contrary to what a lot of people believe, but the use of labor in manufacturing has; we've shed manufacturing jobs as we've increased productivity enormously.

463 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:24:24am

I would love to as Scalia et al. what they think the Founding Fathers would have said if the East India company had anonymously given huge donations to a candidate for President who wanted to bring the US back into the Empire.

464 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:26:27am

re: #461 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

re: #457 Obdicut

So... only folks on the right are using this? Gosh, they must be smart.

All the other news stations are using WH approved accountants.

465 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:27:31am

re: #461 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

re: #457 Obdicut

So... only folks on the right are using this? Gosh, they must be smart.

What are you talking about?

Right now, GOP-backing groups are outspending the Democrats by about 3-1. That's right now. There's no reason to think that'll be forever; the populist tide could turn very quickly and it could be the Democratic-backing groups doing the outspending. The point is not who is doing it, but that this backing means that the group doing the buys has a lot of power they didn't before. It means that those with shitloads of money became more powerful.

Whether they buy GOP victories or Democrat victories is trivial; what's important is the now nearly-unlimited power of these groups to at least attempt to buy victories.

466 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:28:09am

Michael Moore even has a tax accountant...

I have no source for that, just a gigantic hunch.

467 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:29:37am

re: #464 NJDhockeyfan

All the other news stations are using WH approved accountants.

I'm sure that the corporations that own MSNBC, ABC, and CNN are also mightily pleased with this. The modern media are a worthless jackhole of profiteering fools.

I don't think any of them will be able to achieve the success of Fox in turning the GOP into the political arm of their corporations, though. Fox got there first.

468 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:29:57am

72,000 stimulus payments went to dead people

More than 89,000 stimulus payments of $250 each went to people who were either dead or in prison, a government investigator says in a new report.

The payments, which were part of last year's massive economic recovery package, were meant to increase consumer spending to help stimulate the economy.

But about $18 million went to nearly 72,000 people who were dead, according to the report by the Social Security Administration's inspector general. The report estimates that a little more than half of those payments were returned.

I wonder how many jobs this stimulus money has created or saved?

469 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:33:41am

re: #467 Obdicut

All I know, is most of my DVRs are NBC (some funny stuff there)... been an equal opportunity fast forwarder.

I haven't watched anything on Fox in months... So, I don't know.

470 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:33:48am

re: #468 NJDhockeyfan

I suspect that those figures would track the level of SS fraud. SS fraud - cashing checks of deceased is a far larger problem and other schemes defrauds all Americans to the tune of millions of dollars every year.

471 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:34:09am

re: #468 NJDhockeyfan

Do you think Brietbart is a good source to cite from?

Since it's an AP story, you could cite that from pretty much anywhere. Why Brietbart?

To put the story in perspective:

There were 52 million stimulus payments.

89,000 is 0.17% of fifty-two million.

472 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:34:10am

re: #468 NJDhockeyfan

This is too funny. You're complaining about potentially $9M of waste (it seems that more than half of the $18M was returned). This, by my calculation, is roughly 0.001% of $787B (which I believe was the original stimulus amount).

So there's 0.001% of waste in the deployment, compared to the ~25% administrative overhead of the health insurance industry.

Priorities!

473 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:34:32am

re: #470 lawhawk

Receiving an incorrect check is not nearly as bad as cashing one?

474 Ericus58  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:37:30am

re: #428 Obdicut

Government jobs were cut, and private sector jobs increased.

You think that's a bad thing? You'd rather see more government jobs?

"The recovery from the longest and deepest downturn since the 1930s has been slow to generate jobs. Private hiring last month was held back by the goods-producing industries, where payrolls contracted 22,000 as manufacturing employment fell 6,000 after declining 28,000 in August.

Construction payrolls fell 21,000, reflecting the lasting troubles in the housing market, after August's boost from the return of striking workers.

Private services sector employment rose 86,000 after increasing 83,000 in August. Temporary help services—seen as a harbinger of permanent hiring—increased 16,900 last month after rising 17,700 in August.

"Job growth in the goods producing industries has been bottoming out. What we need to see, to get a really positive feed back loop in the economy, is the services sector start to edge up,'' said Troy Davig, senior U.S. economist at Barclays Capital in New York.

The end of temporary census jobs and the loss of 76,000 local government jobs pushed total government payrolls down 159,000 last month."
[Link: www.cnbc.com...]

475 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:38:00am

re: #467 Obdicut

The only other person who might be able to turn that trick is Carlos Slim, but he was dealing with the NY Times. Slim is a Mexican billionaire, and bought a major share of the Times for a song, but the Times isn't in the same ballpark or league as Fox, despite the Times' longstanding reputation for setting political agendas and political debate. It's not even in the same sport. Ted Turner could have done so if he wanted as the owner of CNN, and for a time he was moving in that direction but hasn't done so.

Now, if Slim bought up one of the major networks and started consolidating his holdings and pushing his own agenda, that's a different story.

The other networks are generally owned by corporations that hope to profit from their tv operations.

476 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:38:48am

re: #474 Ericus58

I'm sorry, I'm not understanding the point of the bolded sections-- except that they match up with what I said earlier about corporations not adding manufacturing jobs here in the US, but out in China and other places in the developing world. Can you explain?

477 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:40:36am

Hello all, good morning to my hemisphere...

The California governors race just got a bit more entertaining...

478 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:41:13am

re: #471 Obdicut

Do you think Brietbart is a good source to cite from?

Since it's an AP story, you could cite that from pretty much anywhere. Why Brietbart?

To put the story in perspective:

There were 52 million stimulus payments.

89,000 is 0.17% of fifty-two million.

I didn't even notice it was Brietbart's website. I clicked on the link at Memeorandum which shows the AP as the source. Not that it makes a difference, I doubt Brietbart changed the story.

479 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:41:18am

re: #476 Obdicut

The explanation is that US workers can't expect to get their jobs back until they lower their standard of living to that of Bangladeshi sweatshop laborers.

480 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:41:25am

re: #472 iossarian

How exactly is the health care reform going to improve the 25% overhead?

They certainly aren't going to reduce paperwork and overhead when they demand more paperwork for FSAs. The portion of the HCR dealing with FSAs is a disaster. The reform calls for doctors' notes to get otc drug reimbursement. That reduces the utility of the FSAs, and increases the burdens on doctors and patients to get the necessary paperwork, and then for the insurers to process the additional paperwork.

I see that as a sorely misguided reform attempt that does nothing to reduce costs of coverage and care - and FSAs were one of the few bright spots for health care since patients could choose the amount of FSA they want to devote to care based on their need.

481 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:43:06am

re: #473 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Both are bad, but the act of cashing one of those checks is worse - as per federal law.

482 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:43:32am

re: #480 lawhawk

The HCR bill is a mess and by itself is unlikely to lower administrative costs (I think it could well reduce costs by promoting preventative care though).

I see it mostly as the first step towards a real healthcare system that is able to reduce administrative costs. Allowing people to buy into Medicaid at cost would be the logical next step - I believe Medicaid's overhead is lower than the private insurers'.

483 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:43:52am

re: #475 lawhawk

Carlos Slim is a good example. He's a large reason why Mexico's economy is in rough shape, too; he's got a monopoly and several anti-competitive conglomerate groups. He serves as an excellent demonstration of how politically powerful megawealthy people can choke off middle class entrepreneurship.

484 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:44:37am

re: #480 lawhawk

BTW, the fact that the HCR bill doesn't reduce administrative costs is explained by the vast amounts of money that the insurers dumped into the lobbying process as it was being written.

485 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:46:17am

re: #480 lawhawk

Final point - FSA's are great if you actually can afford to put money into them, and useless if you're on the minimum wage and can't afford asthma drugs for your child.

486 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:46:57am

re: #483 Obdicut

The reason Mexico is in such bad shape has more to do with the corruption within the government, a lack of rule of law and an ongoing drug war that continues to expose the thoroughly corrupt government at various levels.

I see the corruption has more to do with the lack of opportunities for economic advancement and demagoguery by politicians doesn't help Mexicans hoping for a better way of life.

487 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:48:52am

re: #485 iossarian

If you've got a child, you're likely going to be already eligible for medical insurance under SCHIP or similar programs that were widely available before and after HCR was passed.

488 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:49:27am

re: #487 lawhawk

Remind me which party tends to want to expand SCHIP, and which tends to want to cut it.

489 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:49:30am

re: #485 iossarian

The place that they work best, I think, is Singapore, which has a mixed health insurance and health care system: catastrophic insurance for all, subsidized general insurance, and a system of public and private hospitals where you can pay more for, basically, more frills like private rooms.

Here's a pretty good article on it:

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

490 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:49:45am

re: #482 iossarian

Medicare refused to pay for a very expensive drug for my mom. Mom and Dad would never be able to afford it, so they didn't do it.

Ready for a shocka? I'm glad they didn't approve it. I don't blame President Obama either.

I don't think that a couple extra shitty days for anyone is worth a hundred grand.

491 Ericus58  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:51:04am

re: #476 Obdicut

I'm sorry, I'm not understanding the point of the bolded sections-- except that they match up with what I said earlier about corporations not adding manufacturing jobs here in the US, but out in China and other places in the developing world. Can you explain?

Explain?
those jobs created - majority seem to be service-industry related. Hardly the type that will sustain a typical middle class household.
You had a good observation on the manufacturing jobs-to-capacity aspect.
Those stats reinforce that.

492 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:51:23am

re: #490 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm really sorry to hear that your family had to make that kind of decision. Whatever system is in place, that is always going to be a tough call.

493 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:51:48am

re: #489 Obdicut

Can you scale the Singapore example to a national level covering 300 million plus people?

494 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:52:32am

re: #486 lawhawk

Saying that the reason lies with government corruption is silly. Government corruption or co-option is obviously a large part of how Slim has been able to operate in a near-monopolistic or outright monopolistic fashion across so many industries. But the stratification of wealth is clearly a problem in and of itself, independent of government corruption. With so much wealth locked up with Slim and those in the upper strata like him, there is much less money available for middle-class entrepreneurship. We are starting to see some of the same effects of that here; for awhile the easy credit masked this, but now that credit for small businesses is hard to come by, it's becoming more obvious that it's harder for middle class people to afford to start small businesses.

495 AK-47%  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:53:04am

re: #479 iossarian

The explanation is that US workers can't expect to get their jobs back until they lower their standard of living to that of Bangladeshi sweatshop laborers.

And US corporations have to be allowed to lower their safety and emissions standards to those of Pakistan...

496 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:53:16am

re: #491 Ericus58

Explain?
those jobs created - majority seem to be service-industry related. Hardly the type that will sustain a typical middle class household.
You had a good observation on the manufacturing jobs-to-capacity aspect.
Those stats reinforce that.

Thanks, yes. I just didn't know what you were trying to draw attention to, since you didn't comment on it. That's all.

497 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:55:21am

re: #495 ralphieboy

And US corporations have to be allowed to lower their safety and emissions standards to those of Pakistan...

Does make one wonder how such things would be viewed if one required corporate officers above a certain level to live/work downwind and downstream from their own operations.

498 Ericus58  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:55:34am

re: #490 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Medicare refused to pay for a very expensive drug for my mom. Mom and Dad would never be able to afford it, so they didn't do it.

Ready for a shocka? I'm glad they didn't approve it. I don't blame President Obama either.

I don't think that a couple extra shitty days for anyone is worth a hundred grand.

I can't see for myself putting a potential financial burden on my family for a drug or procedure that gives me a few more months of misery.
It's a tough choice I'm sure, but to do so at the twilight of my life just seems selfish to me.

499 AK-47%  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:55:59am

re: #491 Ericus58

Explain?
those jobs created - majority seem to be service-industry related. Hardly the type that will sustain a typical middle class household.
You had a good observation on the manufacturing jobs-to-capacity aspect.
Those stats reinforce that.


I believe that Bush tried to reclassify jobs at McDonald's as manufacturing sector positions: the employee was "manufacturing" a Big Mac.

Which would mean that working as a fry cook a the Waffle House counts as a high-tech engineering position.

500 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:56:03am

re: #493 lawhawk

Can you scale the Singapore example to a national level covering 300 million plus people?

Yes. In many ways, we already have. We are not very far away from the Singapore system; we have broad mix of private and public hospitals. As you've noted, I think health care savings accounts are a good match for US citizens, since we like the idea of personal responsibility and saving for disasters. The means-based subsidies are effectively what happens already, where people with health insurance and taxpayers subsidize the health care costs of those without health insurance.

Can you explain a reason why you think the system wouldn't scale-- or rather, what scale has to do with it?

501 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:57:56am

re: #499 ralphieboy

I believe that Bush tried to reclassify jobs at McDonald's as manufacturing sector positions: the employee was "manufacturing" a Big Mac.

Which would mean that working as a fry cook a the Waffle House counts as a high-tech engineering position.

That sounds like something that needs a solid cite. Otherwise it sounds like a piece of political propaganda. And wouldn't such a reclassification be something done by Congress, and not the Executive Branch?

502 AK-47%  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:58:09am

re: #497 oaktree

Does make one wonder how such things would be viewed if one required corporate officers above a certain level to live/work downwind and downstream from their own operations.


I have no problem with the Third World competing with us on wages and benefits, that is the impetus we need to remain productive and competitive. But if we allow them to undercut us on basic safety and emissions standards we are doing nobody a favor.

I think that there should be tariffs for nations whose safety and emissions standards are not up to ours: it would serve as an impetus to them to clean up their act and not punish US corporations for maintaining their standards.

503 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:58:51am

re: #486 lawhawk

The reason Mexico is in such bad shape has more to do with the corruption within the government, a lack of rule of law and an ongoing drug war that continues to expose the thoroughly corrupt government at various levels.

I see the corruption has more to do with the lack of opportunities for economic advancement and demagoguery by politicians doesn't help Mexicans hoping for a better way of life.

I could cry for Mexico. I used to go for biz. Vibrant, growing, energetic and pretty safe. I would not dare go to the places and do the things we did then. I used to hang out with the government export guy for the state of Jalisco. Great fun in Guadalajara.

504 AK-47%  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:00:14am

re: #501 oaktree

That sounds like something that needs a solid cite. Otherwise it sounds like a piece of political propaganda. And wouldn't such a reclassification be something done by Congress, and not the Executive Branch?


Cite and bite.

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

505 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:00:21am

re: #498 Ericus58

Self-death-panelling!

I completely agree, by the way. I have a living will written out giving explicit instructions that nothing that merely extends suffering is to be done for me. A friend of mine is on a transplant board, and says that the calculus of potential life vs. quality of life vs. chance of failure is an amazingly complex one, every time. Every situation is somehow different, narrative, and it's hard to come up with an equation to cover it all.

She was pretty pissed about the 'death panels' thing.

506 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:01:23am

re: #492 iossarian

Not a tough decision actually... for some families it might be... we're a practical lot.

507 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:01:24am

re: #502 ralphieboy

I have no problem with the Third World competing with us on wages and benefits, that is the impetus we need to remain productive and competitive. But if we allow them to undercut us on basic safety and emissions standards we are doing nobody a favor.

I think that there should be tariffs for nations whose safety and emissions standards are not up to ours: it would serve as an impetus to them to clean up their act and not punish US corporations for maintaining their standards.

I suspect that too much political (local and international) flak would come up to make that feasible. Arguably you could follow that line to add tariffs for goods from countries that don't sufficiently support human rights as well.

And once you get into tariff/trade wars often both sides end up losing.

508 Taqyia2Me  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:02:28am

Just heard Jim Jones is resigning his White House staff position.

509 Ericus58  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:02:44am

re: #499 ralphieboy

I believe that Bush tried to reclassify jobs at McDonald's as manufacturing sector positions: the employee was "manufacturing" a Big Mac.

Which would mean that working as a fry cook a the Waffle House counts as a high-tech engineering position.

I wasn't aware of that, Bush's attempt that is.

510 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:02:54am

re: #508 Taqyia2Me

Just heard Jim Jones is resigning his White House staff position.

Same here.

511 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:03:41am

re: #504 ralphieboy

Cite and bite.

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

Thanks for the quick response and cite. Pity I'm not surprised at the sort of twisting attempted there.

512 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:03:45am

And good morning.

513 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:03:47am

re: #508 Taqyia2Me

Just heard Jim Jones is resigning his White House staff position.

Off to Guyana?

514 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:04:03am

re: #500 Obdicut

As this Kaiser report points out, the Singaporean system doesn't handle the size elderly population that we have here in the US - and the elderly population in the US is the biggest consumer of health care.

Despite health care accounting for a low share of GDP, the Singaporean health care system is arriving at a crossroad as they face rapid growth and the challenges of cost containment as their currently young population ages and medical technology advances. The current financing of health care currently does not include long-term nursing care for the elderly since Medisave and Medishield are mainly used for acute hospital care. One of the proposals is to establish a long-term care insurance product, similar to Medishield. The government is also working towards harnessing information technology by establishing a National Health Information System that will incorporate electronic medical records across the health care system.

Singapore is trying to figure out how to pay for health care for an aging population. We're already at that aging population threshold.

515 AK-47%  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:04:51am

re: #507 oaktree

I suspect that there would be a lot of flak, but we are doing ourselves no favors by allowing other countries to undercut us by scrimping on basic health and emissions standards. these are things that directly affect the price of a product, unlike abstract considerations like human rights.

Unless we are counting slave or prison labor, of course.

516 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:05:25am

re: #509 Ericus58

I wasn't aware of that, Bush's attempt that is.

The article says:

The report does not recommend that burger-flippers be counted alongside factory workers.

Instead, it concludes that the fuzziness of the manufacturing definition is problematic, because policies — like, for example, a tax credit for manufacturers — may miss their target if the definition is overly broad or narrow.

The real shitty thing that report did was claim that it's good for us to have our jobs shipped overseas. It failed to distinguish between 'good for the economy/corporations' and 'good for the average American worker'. It talked only of the former.

517 Ericus58  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:06:14am

re: #506 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Not a tough decision actually... for some families it might be... we're a practical lot.

I'm feelin' ya, FBV. My thought's for you and family.

518 AK-47%  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:07:23am

re: #516 Obdicut

The article says:


The real shitty thing that report did was claim that it's good for us to have our jobs shipped overseas. It failed to distinguish between 'good for the economy/corporations' and 'good for the average American worker'. It talked only of the former.


What's "good for the American worker" seems to be a flood of cheap imported products available at the Wal-Mart, and a labor market consisting of working at the Wal-Mart or going unemployed.

519 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:07:34am

re: #514 lawhawk

My mom has consumed about a million dollars in health care in the last four years of her life. We're approaching the end, but honestly? I don't think she she thinks it was worth it.

I might be for Death Panels. But, like I said, I'm from a practical lot.

Maybe a "Death Panel" just needs better marketing.

Now... I'm not advocating incineration chambers either.

520 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:08:00am

re: #516 Obdicut


The real shitty thing that report did was claim that it's good for us to have our jobs shipped overseas. It failed to distinguish between 'good for the economy/corporations' and 'good for the average American worker'. It talked only of the former.

If profits go up, everyone* benefits.

* Disclaimer: "everyone" in this context is restricted to those owning shares.

521 Ericus58  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:08:02am

re: #504 ralphieboy

Cite and bite.

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

"But, the president's report notes, even the Census Bureau has acknowledged that its definition "can be somewhat blurry," with bakeries, candy stores, custom tailors and tire retreading services considered manufacturing.

"Mixing water and concentrate to produce soft drinks is classified as manufacturing," the president's report reads. "However, if that activity is performed at a snack bar, it is considered a service."

The report does not recommend that burger-flippers be counted alongside factory workers.

Instead, it concludes that the fuzziness of the manufacturing definition is problematic, because policies — like, for example, a tax credit for manufacturers — may miss their target if the definition is overly broad or narrow."

522 Taqyia2Me  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:08:26am

re: #513 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Off to Guyana?

Do NOT follow anyone named Jones there!

523 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:09:16am

re: #514 lawhawk

That's not actually a matter of scale, then, but of different demographics. The funny part is that we already have a mechanism for dealing with health care for the elderly in place.

Increasing age of populations is a systemic problem across a huge number of different areas, like jobs-- a lot of unemployment is simply because people are staying in their jobs longer and not retiring-- housing, etc. That it affects health care is certainly true, but I'm not understanding how you're saying that shows the Singapore system couldn't scale to the US.

524 AK-47%  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:09:25am

re: #519 Fat Bastard Vegetarian


Maybe a "Death Panel" just needs better marketing.

blockquote>

How about a "Life Panel"?

525 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:09:35am

re: #522 Taqyia2Me

Do NOT follow anyone named Jones there!

Can we send a couple Senators there on a fact finding mission?
///

526 Ericus58  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:09:45am

re: #516 Obdicut

The article says:

The real shitty thing that report did was claim that it's good for us to have our jobs shipped overseas. It failed to distinguish between 'good for the economy/corporations' and 'good for the average American worker'. It talked only of the former.

You won. I had to have a quick meeting with some peers.

527 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:10:37am

re: #502 ralphieboy

That runs into a couple of problems - trade wars being one. Tariffs imposed in that fashion could result in reciprocal tariffs lodged against US products. It would also be seen as trade protectionism in 3d World Countries, and even some 2d world countries like China and India.

If there were some kind of international consensus/agreement on emission levels and/or fuel economy for vehicles, tariffs imposed on countries that don't meet those standards could work.

Working with the EU to come up with a standard that works across the US and EU could serve that same function since those are two of the biggest markets - and manufacturers of vehicles. Add Japan and South Korean and you've got most of the major manufacturers involved. Getting China to buy into that would be tough, but could ultimately result in far more efficiencies and fuel efficient vehicles.

528 Ericus58  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:10:57am

BBIAM

529 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:12:58am

re: #526 Ericus58

You won. I had to have a quick meeting with some peers.

I try to be fair to Bush the former, especially in the current climate where I miss him-- not as president, but as a semi-sane GOP leader.

I think the point about the blurriness between service and manufacturing is a fair one, though I'm comfortable with saying that there's a gray area, or a dual area. If I hire someone to hand-tool a machine for me, he's engaged in both manufacturing and service at the same time.

530 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:13:11am

re: #519 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I feel for your situation and I know that you're not alone in that - both in the fact that there are millions of families facing tough decisions on end-of-life care. Balancing costs, quality of life, ability to pay, is one of the toughest (if not toughest) decision a person can make.

531 AK-47%  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:14:33am

re: #527 lawhawk

Point is that the ideal of Global Free Trade and a level Playing Field are still a long way off, and US workeers are, overall, being disadvantaged much more than they are profiting from the benefits.

532 Slap  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:17:16am

Good Morn, Land O' Lizards!

It's been a while since our last Tom Tomorrow update, if I recall.

The Tea and Crumpets Party

And a couple about the Boy Detective (the deer stalker cracks me up):

Conservative Jones and the Mystery of Sharia Law

Conservative Jones - Ladies' Man!

Have a smile, and happy Friday!

533 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:17:20am

re: #523 Obdicut

Scale and demographics are related - since ramping (scaling) up the Singaporean example to the US population would not affect the driver of US costs (aging population) and which Singapore is now dealing with - the aging population and for which Singapore doesn't have any good answers.

534 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:18:58am

re: #531 ralphieboy

We have a huge weapon in our market; it hurts China a lot more if they can't sell in our market then it hurts the US to not be able to sell in China's market. We should be using that a lot more. Or, to put it in a more nuanced manner: Corporations that are directly benefiting from the low worker standards in China, while also benefiting from the legal and civic infrastructure of the US, could be made to pay for that double-dealing. Targeting the goods with tarrifs distorts the market and causes weirdness; targeting the corporations engaging in the unethical behavior makes a hell of a lot more sense.

535 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:20:12am

re: #533 lawhawk

Scale and demographics are related - since ramping (scaling) up the Singaporean example to the US population would not affect the driver of US costs (aging population) and which Singapore is now dealing with - the aging population and for which Singapore doesn't have any good answers.

Why are you saying that Singapore doesn't have any good answers for the aging population, exactly?

Why are you concluding the driver for US costs is the aging population? Don't you mean 'a' driver?

Have you read this?

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

536 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:25:20am

ooops, forgot i'd left myself logged in.

not like me to lurk. oh well.

laters gators.

537 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:32:23am

re: #94 NJDhockeyfan

I just don't buy it yet. Isn't that enough?

I don't buy that the Earth isn't flat.
Isn't that enough?

538 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:32:56am

re: #537 Varek Raith

I don't buy that the Earth isn't flat.
Isn't that enough?

Whatever floats your boat.

539 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:33:48am

re: #538 NJDhockeyfan

Whatever floats your boat.

I don't buy that boats float, either.

540 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:33:50am

re: #508 Taqyia2Me

Just heard Jim Jones is resigning his White House staff position.

Interesting timing. I wonder what the inside story is.

541 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:34:23am

re: #539 Varek Raith

I don't buy that boats float, either.

The Titanic is a good example.

542 Mr. Crankypants  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:35:04am

re: #534 Obdicut

We have a huge weapon in our market; it hurts China a lot more if they can't sell in our market then it hurts the US to not be able to sell in China's market. We should be using that a lot more. Or, to put it in a more nuanced manner: Corporations that are directly benefiting from the low worker standards in China, while also benefiting from the legal and civic infrastructure of the US, could be made to pay for that double-dealing. Targeting the goods with tarrifs distorts the market and causes weirdness; targeting the corporations engaging in the unethical behavior makes a hell of a lot more sense.

Uberdings for dat! Too bad the political system is so riddled with corporate ownership that it will never happen.

543 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:35:57am

re: #535 Obdicut

[Link: www.ahrq.gov...]

The elderly (age 65 and over) made up around 13 percent
of the U.S. population in 2002, but they consumed 36
percent of total U.S. personal health care expenses. The
average health care expense in 2002 was $11,089 per year
for elderly people but only $3,352 per year for working-age
people (ages 19-64).5

The elderly population is more likely to have chronic conditions and therefore the greater expenses. In particular see Chart 2 of the pdf linked above.

As for the Singapore example, as per that previously linked article - that country has not implemented the kind of program that we have here in the US (Medicare/Medicaid), and are trying to figure out how to fund a system along those lines, but runs up against the very problems we have here.

544 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:36:27am

re: #541 NJDhockeyfan

The Titanic is a good example.

That was Bush's Fault™.

545 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:38:36am

re: #544 Varek Raith

Actually, if we'd just got around to warming the Earth a bit earlier, the Titanic would have been fine.

Damn those Picts and their low-carbon peat ovens!

546 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:38:58am

re: #544 Varek Raith

Now why'd you go and get Kate Winslet involved in that? /

547 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:39:46am

re: #544 Varek Raith

That was Bush's Fault™.

It was sunk by the Bush/Cheney iceburg torpedo machine.

548 Taqyia2Me  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:41:25am

re: #540 NJDhockeyfan

Interesting timing. I wonder what the inside story is.

Two years seems to be the limit for high ranking admin. positions over these last 20 or so years...

549 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:41:26am

re: #547 NJDhockeyfan

It was sunk by the Bush/Cheney iceburg torpedo machine.

You forgot Halliburton.

550 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:42:44am

re: #549 Cannadian Club Akbar

You forgot Halliburton.

And ACORN.

551 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:43:46am

re: #549 Cannadian Club Akbar

You forgot Halliburton.

Was it built by Halliburton? I haven't been updated on these important top sekret reports.

552 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:44:31am

re: #543 lawhawk

The elderly population is more likely to have chronic conditions and therefore the greater expenses. In particular see Chart 2 of the pdf linked above.

I understand that just fine. That doesn't mean you're in any way right to claim it is THE driver of health care costs. Did you read the article I linked?


As for the Singapore example, as per that previously linked article - that country has not implemented the kind of program that we have here in the US (Medicare/Medicaid), and are trying to figure out how to fund a system along those lines, but runs up against the very problems we have here.

So how does that equate to 'not having any answers', exactly? That, to me, says that they're attempting to solve the problem, not that they've thrown up their hands and declared it to be unsolvable.

They're attempting more than to set up a Medicare equivalent, by the way-- since they already cover acute cases through the normal system, saying that they have no system like Medicare is not actually a true statement. What they lack is a system to deal with day-to-day care; they have a system for acute care.

They are trying to use their unique mix of private/public to solve the problem-- an example that I still think we could follow. They do this by attempting to subsidize private and charitable organizations long-term health care provisions for the elderly.

[Link: www.sma.org.sg...]

I am still failing to see how what you have said is in any way an argument against the Singapore model's efficacy in the US. Obviously one couldn't excise it and slap it down whole, it'd have to be adjusted, but what's with the flat-out rejection?

553 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:45:24am

re: #550 Varek Raith

And ACORN.

re: #551 NJDhockeyfan

Was it built by Halliburton? I haven't been updated on these important top sekret reports.

Halliburton made torpedoes made of acorns. And squirrels around the world died.

554 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:47:24am

Cool.
On of my temp sensors in my pc is reading -63 degrees Celsius.
Awesome.
/Stupid sensor.

555 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:48:12am

re: #554 Varek Raith

Cool.
On of my temp sensors in my pc is reading -63 degrees Celsius.
Awesome.
/Stupid sensor.

Space does that.

556 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:48:22am

re: #553 Cannadian Club Akbar

Bush lied, squirrels died. It has a certain ring to it.

557 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:49:19am

re: #556 iossarian

Bush lied, squirrels died. It has a certain ring to it.

Don't tell TIME magazine!!!

558 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:49:32am

re: #553 Cannadian Club Akbar

re: #551 NJDhockeyfan

Halliburton made torpedoes made of acorns. And squirrels around the world died.

Those were the ones hidden in icebergs, aren't they? They were hidden on the ice shelf and using the Bush/Cheney Global Warming machine they were cut loose to float into the Titanic. It's become very clear now. Someone call Alex Jones!

559 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:50:17am

re: #554 Varek Raith

Cool.
On of my temp sensors in my pc is reading -63 degrees Celsius.
Awesome.
/Stupid sensor.

And anoter is reading 261 degrees Celsius.
The Arctic and Hell, all in one!
9_9

560 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:51:20am

re: #552 Obdicut

Where do you get that I flat out reject it. I originally asked whether you could scale it up to the US. You've since responded that the Singaporeans do many of the things that the US already does, but admit that they're trying to work out how to cover the one segment of population that drives the costs.

And yes, I read that New Yorker article, but you still ignore the fact that the elderly are the ones driving the costs as the population segment that utilizes more of the care and more of the chronic long term care.

561 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:52:41am

re: #339 Mr Pancakes

So is Gloria Allred.
/

Yes, but Gloria isn't trying to become Governor in the world's eigth largest economy.

562 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:53:28am

re: #561 darthstar

Yes, but Gloria isn't trying to become Governor in the world's eigth largest economy.

Eigth, that's big right?
//

563 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:53:33am

re: #561 darthstar

I hate you more today than I did yesterday. Great game you got to see.

564 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:53:34am

National Security Adviser Jones to leave White House

President Obama's National Security Adviser Jim Jones will resign from the White House in two weeks, a senior administration official said.

Obama will announce that Jones, a retired Marine general, will be replaced by Deputy National Security Adviser Tom Donilon in a Rose Garden statement Friday afternoon.

Jones’s departure is just the latest personnel room for a West Wing increasingly turning over before the midterm election.

White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel departed on Friday to run for mayor of Chicago. Larry Sumers, Obama’s chief economic adviser, is leaving after the election and two other members of Obama’s team left the White House over the summer.

Another one is high-tailing it out of Washington before the midterm elections.

565 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:54:19am

re: #560 lawhawk

And yes, I read that New Yorker article, but you still ignore the fact that the elderly are the ones driving the costs as the population segment that utilizes more of the care and more of the chronic long term care.

You're asserting a fact without proving it. Please try to prove it. If you did read the article, you'd see that two areas with similar demographics, including elderly population, had wide discrepancies in health care costs. So please actually make your argument that the elderly, and only the elderly, are driving health care costs, keeping in mind the example you've been given where that is clearly not the case.

So make an argument, rather than an assertion.

566 JRCMYP  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:57:53am

Uh. Mah. Gad.

567 AK-47%  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:58:39am

It would take some time to work its way through the system, but it seems that better preventative care for younger citizens would lead to less in the way of chronic conditions for the elderly.

But health care is being argued in terms of short-term bottom line thinking, and those whose short-term bottoms lines are to be most affected are the pharmaceutical and health insurance industries.

568 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 7:59:16am

re: #563 Cannadian Club Akbar

I hate you more today than I did yesterday. Great game you got to see.

Best 100 bucks I've spent in a while...I didn't even leave in the sixth inning like I normally do. The pace with which Lincecum knocked down those last batters was pretty awesome to watch...no fuckin' around on the mound. Get the ball. Face home plate. Wait for the batter to get set. Throw.

569 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:02:49am

re: #568 darthstar

I like home runs like everyone else. But great pitching is the fucking best. And dude was throwing it!! Maybe they'll give him a raise so he can get a haircut. Damn hippie!!
//Was awesome!!!

570 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:03:21am

This is good news...

Scientists and Soldiers Solve a Bee Mystery

It has been one of the great murder mysteries of the garden: what is killing off the honeybees?

Since 2006, 20 to 40 percent of the bee colonies in the United States alone have suffered “colony collapse.” Suspected culprits ranged from pesticides to genetically modified food.

Now, a unique partnership — of military scientists and entomologists — appears to have achieved a major breakthrough: identifying a new suspect, or two.

A fungus tag-teaming with a virus have apparently interacted to cause the problem, according to a paper by Army scientists in Maryland and bee experts in Montana in the online science journal PLoS One.

Exactly how that combination kills bees remains uncertain, the scientists said — a subject for the next round of research. But there are solid clues: both the virus and the fungus proliferate in cool, damp weather, and both do their dirty work in the bee gut, suggesting that insect nutrition is somehow compromised.

I hope they can find a way to stop this virus. We need bees.

571 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:04:07am

re: #568 darthstar

Why the hell would you leave in the sixth?

I haven't been to a game here in NY yet. I have seen an amazingly large number of Red Sox hats around, though.

572 kingkenrod  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:04:20am

re: #552 Obdicut

I understand that just fine. That doesn't mean you're in any way right to claim it is THE driver of health care costs. Did you read the article I linked?

So how does that equate to 'not having any answers', exactly? That, to me, says that they're attempting to solve the problem, not that they've thrown up their hands and declared it to be unsolvable.

They're attempting more than to set up a Medicare equivalent, by the way-- since they already cover acute cases through the normal system, saying that they have no system like Medicare is not actually a true statement. What they lack is a system to deal with day-to-day care; they have a system for acute care.

They are trying to use their unique mix of private/public to solve the problem-- an example that I still think we could follow. They do this by attempting to subsidize private and charitable organizations long-term health care provisions for the elderly.

[Link: www.sma.org.sg...]

I am still failing to see how what you have said is in any way an argument against the Singapore model's efficacy in the US. Obviously one couldn't excise it and slap it down whole, it'd have to be adjusted, but what's with the flat-out rejection?

Interesting graph: Life expectancy Singapore vs. US:

[Link: www.google.com...]

I'd say advantage Singapore.

The Post article is very interesting - I'll point out two things. First, Singapore's population density works in their favor, I'm sure they save a ton of money by centralizing services. Second, moving to a system where 33% of costs are out of pocket would be impossible politically in the US (if the current oop costs are 10%).

Our new HCR moves away from the Singapore model in two ways - by trying to limit out of pocket costs, and by seeking to eliminate catastrophic-only plans.

573 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:06:35am

re: #571 Obdicut

Why the hell would you leave in the sixth?

I haven't been to a game here in NY yet. I have seen an amazingly large number of Red Sox hats around, though.

I never left a game early no matter what the score was. Anything is possible before the game ends.

Rockies score nine runs in bottom of 9th for win

574 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:06:37am

re: #565 Obdicut

I made the fact - not assertion - by citing the Federal study that showed that the elderly were taking up a disproportionate amount of the costs.

Cost differentials between localities isn't driving up costs, because that shows that some localities have figured out how to keep costs lower - but even then the elderly are still taking the disproportionate amount of those costs.

575 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:06:46am

re: #571 Obdicut

Why the hell would you leave in the sixth?

I haven't been to a game here in NY yet. I have seen an amazingly large number of Red Sox hats around, though.

I didn't...I stayed through to the end. Regular season (when I get free tickets) I'll leave after six or seven... This was my first playoff game. I can see why people are willing to pay a lot for good seats. I was in the front of the top deck...actually not bad seats to watch a game. And the place was electric.

576 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:08:12am

re: #572 kingkenrod

Seeking to eliminate private catastrophic-only plans is completely irrelevant, given that the Singapore catastrophic system is public. Given a public catastrophic system, Singapore changes the private market for health insurance totally, into something that's a lot more consumer oriented-- it's about providing continual health care, not the insurance industry attempting to kick critically ill people off the rolls and otherwise deny care.

I definitely agree population density is in their favor, and that the spread out and rural areas in the US will always incur higher costs. That doesn't mean the system won't work, just that it won't be as efficient in that particular regard as Singapore.

577 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:09:29am

re: #574 lawhawk

I made the fact - not assertion - by citing the Federal study that showed that the elderly were taking up a disproportionate amount of the costs.
.

Do you seriously think that means they are THE driver of health care costs?

Why are you ignoring:

The rise in diabetes
The rise in obesity
The rise in allergies

As well as the cultural shifts cited in the Gawande article?

578 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:09:49am

re: #575 darthstar

I've sat behind the visitors bullpen (I could have smacked one of them) and 2nd row on first base side. My favorite is in right field.

579 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:10:32am

re: #575 darthstar

Ah, for me a baseball game is a very rare event, so I'd never leave in the sixth.

I love going to baseball games with my folks, because my mom always makes a ton of awesome food for us to smuggle in.

I miss the old bleachers at Fenway. I went there all the time as a kid.

580 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:11:53am

OT:

What's the deal with Jerry Brown's conversation where his associate/adviser calling Whitman a whore for pandering to the law enforcement unions. Is that a game changer in CA?

I don't think it puts Brown in a good spot right now, but pandering is part and parcel of what politicians do to get elected.

581 AK-47%  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:12:03am

re: #577 Obdicut

Do you seriously think that means they are THE driver of health care costs?

Why are you ignoring:

The rise in diabetes
The rise in obesity
The rise in allergies

As well as the cultural shifts cited in the Gawande article?

And don't forget the rise in all those fashionable PC illnesses like autism

/

582 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:13:10am

re: #581 ralphieboy

Heh. Joking aside, there is the fact that we've been able to diagnose a lot more than we have in the past, so with rising diagnostic ability comes rising costs, as we treat a larger percentage of the sick population than we've actually been able to in the past.

583 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:14:08am

re: #579 Obdicut

Never been to Fenway, and would love to get there at some point (even as a Yankee fan). Been to both old and new Yankee stadium, and while the new one is gorgeous, I miss the old one - which I think had better sightlines for those directly away from the field level. Citifield is a huge upgrade over Shea though - and the food at Citi is much better than at Yankee Stadium, and I say that as a Yankee fan.

My plans for next year is to visit Philly or Pittsburgh to see their new ballparks... and to try and make my way to a few other parks... Camden Yards is a great place to take in a game, and it's dirt cheap with great food too.

584 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:15:36am

re: #583 lawhawk

If I show up in Yankee stadium in Red Sox gear, it won't actually provoke a fight or totally assholic heckling, would it? I mean, if I don't sit in the rabid-fan part of the bleachers?

585 AK-47%  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:16:14am

re: #582 Obdicut

Heh. Joking aside, there is the fact that we've been able to diagnose a lot more than we have in the past, so with rising diagnostic ability comes rising costs, as we treat a larger percentage of the sick population than we've actually been able to in the past.


And the Armed Forces are facing a similar problem: thanks to advances in battlefield medicine, more wounded soldiers are surviving, which often winds up costing Uncle Sam more than paying the life insurance for the ones who die.

586 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:17:49am

re: #584 Obdicut

If I show up in Yankee stadium in Red Sox gear, it won't actually provoke a fight or totally assholic heckling, would it? I mean, if I don't sit in the rabid-fan part of the bleachers?

If you wanna fight, go to an Oakland Raiders game wearing the other teams jersey. And bring your insurance card!!

587 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:18:39am

re: #585 ralphieboy

And leading to new organizations like American Veterans with Brain Injuries

I really hope, I really, really, really hope that we do better by our veterans now than we did in the aftermath of the Vietnam war. The percentage of homeless who are veterans is just shameful.

588 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:19:41am

re: #586 Cannadian Club Akbar

If you wanna fight, go to an Oakland Raiders game wearing the other teams jersey. And bring your insurance card!!

...or go to Philly to watch the Eagles play Dallas with a Cowboy's jersey on.

589 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:19:51am

re: #586 Cannadian Club Akbar

I don't like arena football, so I don't watch the Raiders.

//

590 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:20:36am

re: #584 Obdicut

No... you might get a ribbing, but that's about it. In a game I saw there this year, I had a Detroit fan sitting behind me, and we got into a ribbing. He was calling out Jeter for being a ticky tack hitter, and then moments later Jeter hit a triple. It was nice to rib him back... he was a good sport about that too... had a good laugh...

Wearing an opposing jersey in a place like Philly isn't recommended. They're just awful fans there - and even when Philly comes to NY, they are just rude. At a Mets game where the Mets were honoring a whole bunch of old timers, including HOFers, the Phillies fans booed the likes of Tom Seaver. They even booed Nolan Ryan who made his first appearance in a Met uniform in decades. I just don't get the boos in those circumstances - they are all time greats - shows a lack of baseball smarts...

591 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:20:45am

re: #589 Obdicut

I don't like arena football, so I don't watch the Raiders.

//

Very nice. Heh.

593 kingkenrod  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:22:40am

re: #576 Obdicut

Seeking to eliminate private catastrophic-only plans is completely irrelevant, given that the Singapore catastrophic system is public. Given a public catastrophic system, Singapore changes the private market for health insurance totally, into something that's a lot more consumer oriented-- it's about providing continual health care, not the insurance industry attempting to kick critically ill people off the rolls and otherwise deny care.

I definitely agree population density is in their favor, and that the spread out and rural areas in the US will always incur higher costs. That doesn't mean the system won't work, just that it won't be as efficient in that particular regard as Singapore.

It doesn't matter who pays for the catastrophic plan - public or private. The catastrophic plans increase out of pocket payments while providing the safety net.

A few years ago (2004) I was self-employed and had catastrophic only insurance - it was dirt cheap, $72/month, and I paid for everything under $5000, the plan for everything over $5000, annually.

Since those plans no longer qualify as basic coverage under HCR, they are going away. I think it's stupid, a step in the wrong direction.

594 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:22:41am

re: #590 lawhawk

I like the Yankees-Sox rivalry. I think it's made for some great baseball. I don't understand the people who make it into a "Yankees suck/Sox suck" deal; if that were true, it'd wouldn't be important when one team won.

The only part that leaves a bad taste in my mouth is players going from one team to the other. That part is hard to reconcile with a noble rivalry.

I look forward to my first New York game.

595 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:23:45am

re: #590 lawhawk

Philly stadium (pick one) selling point:
"Come in through our gates, leave from a cell under the stadium".

596 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:24:23am

Continuing the NY theme, what do people think about this (NJ governor cutting funding for rail expansion into Manhattan)?

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

597 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:24:55am

re: #594 Obdicut

Apparently the worst rivalry is Sox-Tampa Bay, where the players actually have grudges (and had a ton of brawls, beanballs, and craziness in the past decade). The Yankees-Sox rivalry is a fan-based one, but one that I think has mutated in to mutual respect since the Sox finally won the WS a twice in recent years.

598 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:24:59am

re: #593 kingkenrod

It doesn't matter who pays for the catastrophic plan - public or private. The catastrophic plans increase out of pocket payments while providing the safety net.

It does matter, actually. If they are a private plan, they have the disincentive to actually pay out, they have all the problems of private health care. There is nowhere that private insurance makes less sense than with catastrophic care.

A few years ago (2004) I was self-employed and had catastrophic only insurance - it was dirt cheap, $72/month, and I paid for everything under $5000, the plan for everything over $5000, annually.

I have a similar plan. It costs me $372 a month now.

Since those plans no longer qualify as basic coverage under HCR, they are going away. I think it's stupid, a step in the wrong direction.

I'm unfamiliar with what you're actually talking about-- could you point me to a policy change that would explain?

599 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:27:40am

re: #597 lawhawk

M favorite fight was when Robin Ventura got hit by Nolan Ryan and charged the mound. Nolan put him in a headlock and started punching. Heh.

600 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:29:57am

re: #595 Cannadian Club Akbar

Philly stadium (pick one) selling point:
"Come in through our gates, leave from a cell under the stadium".

Philadelphia fan base is a bit of an odd duck (outsider POV). I've been to baseball, football, and ice hockey games here in the last three years. A lot of the fans are vocal and loud, but there is this sprinkling of semi-psychotic nuts mixed in that are what really generate the bad reputation. And there are teams they simply *hate* and things do get a bit peevish when they're involved.

So a lot will depend on which type you end up sitting near, or interacting with on the way in/out of the stadium.

And I've seen obnoxious fight-starting drunk types at every sporting event I've attended in any city. Seems to be a sub-section of the human condition.

601 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:30:18am

re: #596 iossarian

I covered that here. NJ simply can't afford to cover the cost overruns, which might be equal to or exceed the NJ share for the project. And that would include even if NJ raised its gas tax (one of the few benefits of living in NJ is that the gas is cheaper here than in PA or NY). Christie is meeting with LaHood, and I think the result may be that the feds pick up a much greater share of cost overruns or that the project gets combined with an Amtrak proposal to build its own additional tracks into Penn Station.

I find fault with NJ Transit building 2-track tunnel to a separate terminus in NY at Herald Square, which doesn't provide the kind of redundancy that you would expect with additional tracks. A delay into Penn would still occur with a single disabled train. The same would occur into the new NJ terminus. If the new tunnels went to Penn station, the disabled train would not affect service and would allow Amtrak and NJ Transit to offer much more effective and safe service. That's how the project was originally pitched until NJ Transit changed their mind over where the tracks would terminate in NY. NJ Transit claimed that the tunnel to Penn Station would undermine the existing tracks and cost more, but that ignores the additional costs of building a whole new station in Herald Square and that they would get an economy of scale by building to Penn Station- rather than duplicating services elsewhere.

602 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:30:41am

re: #599 Cannadian Club Akbar

M favorite fight was when Robin Ventura got hit by Nolan Ryan and charged the mound. Nolan put him in a headlock and started punching. Heh.

Mucking with Nolan Ryan is simply a bad decision.

603 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:30:42am

re: #596 iossarian

Continuing the NY theme, what do people think about this (NJ governor cutting funding for rail expansion into Manhattan)?

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Apparently they ain't got the money. Smart move IMO.

604 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:31:39am

re: #599 Cannadian Club Akbar

Heh... there's a great book I'm reading about baseball. Baseball Codes. It goes into detail about the Code and infamous and famous incidents across baseball history, including the famous noogie fight.

605 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:32:51am

re: #604 lawhawk

Heh... there's a great book I'm reading about baseball. Baseball Codes. It goes into detail about the Code and infamous and famous incidents across baseball history, including the famous noogie fight.

Cool, thanks. Now I know what I want for Christmas!!

606 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:34:00am

re: #595 Cannadian Club Akbar

Philly stadium (pick one) selling point:
"Come in through our gates, leave from a cell under the stadium".

I went to Veterans Stadium in 1980 to see the Cowboys play the Eagles. We sat in the restaurant and ate while watching the game. It was awesome. I took the elevator down at halftime to buy some stuff. An older guy looked down at me in my Dallas Jersey and said "Hey kid, you got guts." Nothing bad happened except for the the Cowboys losing.

607 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:35:11am

re: #601 lawhawk

Thanks for the context.

re: #603 NJDhockeyfan

I know, I phrased my question somewhat provocatively. I was genuinely interested in getting a more local view of what the pros/cons of the project are.

608 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:35:24am

re: #606 NJDhockeyfan

Remember when Eagle fan hit Cowboy coach with a frozen snowball?

609 celticdragon  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:36:22am

re: #125 NJDhockeyfan

The climate has been changing for millions of years and they just decided a few years ago that global warming is the fault of humans? That's why I don't believe it yet.

That patch of ground near Alamagordo New Mexico has been changing according to geologic forces for millions of years before getting a strange green glassy, amorphous solid crust. It had nothing at all to do with that nuclear explosion in 1945. It was nature.

Right.

//

610 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:36:41am

re: #606 NJDhockeyfan

I went to Veterans Stadium in 1980 to see the Cowboys play the Eagles. We sat in the restaurant and ate while watching the game. It was awesome. I took the elevator down at halftime to buy some stuff. An older guy looked down at me in my Dallas Jersey and said "Hey kid, you got guts." Nothing bad happened except for the the Cowboys losing.

You forgot to mention that you're 6'9'' and have hands like bunches of bananas.
/

611 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:36:52am

re: #604 lawhawk

Heh... there's a great book I'm reading about baseball. Baseball Codes. It goes into detail about the Code and infamous and famous incidents across baseball history, including the famous noogie fight.

ESPN's 30 in 30 had "Four Days in October" on the other day about the Red Sox coming back down 3-0 against the Yankees to win the AL pennant.

One famous clip from that is the play where Alex Rodriguez chops the ball out of Bronson Arroyo's glove on a close play at first. Took an umpire conference to get him called out, and when that happens he's standing on second and doing the "what did I do?" play act and then eventually arguing that it was part of his normal running motion (to no avail.)

I understand the competitiveness of the players and such, but I was simply disappointed at the lack of sportsmanship.

612 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:37:22am

re: #604 lawhawk

Heh... there's a great book I'm reading about baseball. Baseball Codes. It goes into detail about the Code and infamous and famous incidents across baseball history, including the famous noogie fight.

I was at Shea Stadium in 1986 the night they beat Philly to win the pennant. It was crazy. The field was covered in fans right after the 3rd out and the place got ripped up. I think one of the players got his glove stolen. Some guy in the parking lot had a roll of center field grass hanging over his shoulder and gave a piece of it to my girlfriend.

613 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:37:53am

re: #608 Cannadian Club Akbar

Remember when Eagle fan hit Cowboy coach with a frozen snowball?

Is there another kind?
//

614 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:39:13am

re: #606 NJDhockeyfan

Overheard at an Eagles game...

"Hey! You suck! Your momma sucks! You sister sucks! Your daddy'd suck too, but I wouldn't let him!"
"C'mon! Let the little girl finish the anthem!"

615 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:39:22am

re: #613 rwdflynavy

Is there another kind?
//

IIRC, they took the snowball and poured water on it to harden it. Brutal. BTW, no one has ever been hurt by a sand ball in Florida.
//

616 bratwurst  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:39:30am

re: #613 rwdflynavy

Is there another kind?
//

Well there ARE these:

Image: hostess-snoballs.jpg

617 apox  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:39:33am

It blows me away how the religious right and creationists are unwilling to accept the theories of AGW and evolution that have demonstrable evidence behind them, but are unwilling to accept them because rising water levels are not flooding their homes or monkeys are not morphing into people infront of their faces.... But can have pure blind faith in the world being made in 7 days or the acceptance of an invisible god that works in "mysterious ways." The irony...

618 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:39:48am

re: #610 iossarian

You forgot to mention that you're 6'9'' and have hands like bunches of bananas.
/

I wish...I was 17 and with my brother & step father. I wasn't aware of how violent Philly fans were however I lucked out and never experienced it.

619 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:40:17am

Advantage to being a vegetarian? Just made a batch of chili.

In 15 MINUTES!

AND IT'S GOOD!

620 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:40:43am

re: #614 Fat Bastard Vegetarian


They booed Santa.

621 celticdragon  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:41:10am

re: #619 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Advantage to being a vegetarian? Just made a batch of chili.

In 15 MINUTES!

AND IT'S GOOD!

Vegetarian chili?

*shudder*

You can have my share, by all means.

622 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:41:15am

re: #619 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Advantage to being a vegetarian? Just made a batch of chili.

In 15 MINUTES!

AND IT'S GOOD!

BFD. I made potato soup and corn bread last night.
/actually I did. Took about 30 minutes.

624 celticdragon  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:42:33am

re: #622 Cannadian Club Akbar

BFD. I made potato soup and corn bread last night.
/actually I did. Took about 30 minutes.

That's more like it.

Hot creamy potato soup on a cold autumn day is teh awesome.

625 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:42:34am

re: #621 celticdragon

Vegetarian chili?

*shudder*

You can have my share, by all means.

Right up there with Tofu dogs!!

626 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:42:52am

Was philly where the battery pelting happened?

I still laugh at the idea of bat night in philly.

627 celticdragon  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:43:43am

re: #623 lawhawk

Bank of America announced a hold on foreclosure sales nationwide pending a review of paperwork.

Maybe they got the clue that sending agents in to change locks in houses that were occupied was going to end up with a body count.

628 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:44:00am

re: #626 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Was philly where the battery pelting happened?

I still laugh at the idea of bat night in philly.

San Fran Giants fans have been known to throw batteries at Dodgers players.

629 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:44:37am

re: #626 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Was philly where the battery pelting happened?

Yup.

630 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:46:10am

Off for the day... by y'all!

631 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:50:07am

I'm not a Red Sox fan but I really felt bad for this guy...

Here's a movie idea: diehard Red Sox fan falls into a coma before the 2004 playoffs, spends the next four weeks fighting for his life, then regains his senses after the World Series. He survives ... only he feels ripped off, because as millions of Sox fans say, "I saw them win in my lifetime," this poor guy is the one who didn't see anything.

Never mind. It's too improbable, right?

Meet Steven Manganello, known from this day forward in Red Sox history as The Coma Guy. Growing up in Maine, his family followed the Sox because his grandfather did, one more diehard who ended up with these dates on his tombstone: 1917-2003. Ouch.

Last September, Steven scheduled a Japan vacation that would get him home two days before the playoffs began. On Oct. 1, the final night of his trip, he crossed a street in Tokyo and ... well, this is where it gets hazy. That tends to happen when you're pancaked by a taxi travelling at an estimated 50 mph. Steven spent the next four weeks in a Tokyo hospital, battling a potentially fatal brain hemorrhage, not to mention paralysis, a punctured lung and other critical injuries. The collision was so violent, he didn't just have five broken ribs, one of them had actually flipped around inside his body. Steven's head was so swollen that when his brother, Anthony, showed up the next day, he swears it was "three times its normal size."

In the movies, people spring out of a coma like Adrian in Rocky II, as if nothing happened. In real life, there's a tube jammed down your throat and enough drugs pump through your veins to bring Keith Richards to his knees. For 17 days Steven was a blank slate. Sometimes he woke for a few minutes, but his short-term memory was demolished. That didn't stop Anthony from constantly feeding him playoff updates, hoping the positive news would stimulate something in his brother. When the Sox dropped those first three to the Yanks, Anthony even lied, pretending they were winning. Anything to keep his brother going. When Steven heard the "good" news, he'd squeeze his brother's hand -- it was all he could do. A few minutes later, as Anthony puts it, "He'd be on vacation again."

When the Yankees orchestrated the Greatest Choke in Sports History, a semiconscious Steven was still disoriented (channeling Grady Little of the previous October). When the Sox won it all and his friends and family called to share the moment, he understood ... for about five minutes. Then he forgot what happened. It was like SNL's old Mr. Short-Term Memory sketch. As Steven says, "I could remember my childhood phone number, but I couldn't remember somebody's name." It wasn't until he flew home to California in November that his brain started to work again. By Thanksgiving, Steven was well enough to fully grasp two things: "Holy crap, I almost died!" and "Holy crap, the Red Sox won the World Series!"

Problem is, now he feels left out. He only vaguely remembers a buddy calling after the ALCS, a Yankee fan saying he was half-rooting for Boston for Steven's sake. That made him feel good. He remembers watching highlights of two Johnny Damon homers on Japanese television, a happy, if hazy, memory. He knows he absorbed his brother's updates and believes they helped him ... but he remembers nothing of them. And he is proud the Sox won. Still, Steven says, "I get hit by a car and boom, they win the Series. If you loved the Red Sox and waited your whole life for this, how would you feel?" In case you don't know, he'll tell you. "It's brutal."

632 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:51:16am

My brother the douche, owes me $90. Since he doesn't think he does, I have to have a garage sale tomorrow. Gonna go get stuff together. BBL.:)

633 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:53:30am

re: #628 Cannadian Club Akbar

Somewhere out there, there is a great photo of the Leeds players coming onto the pitch to play Galatasaray in the 2001 Champions League semi-final. The Turkish police are holding up riot shields to protect the players from the various objects that are being flung at them by the frankly bonkers crowd.

It's the only time I've seen players look genuinely afraid of what's going to happen in the next 90 minutes. The only other time I've seen that look in sports is on the face of lower-level boxers when Tyson got into the ring with them.

Google is so far failing to turn up the photo, annoyingly.

634 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:53:53am

re: #632 Cannadian Club Akbar

My brother the douche, owes me $90. Since he doesn't think he does, I have to have a garage sale tomorrow. Gonna go get stuff together. BBL.:)

Go sell some of your brother's stuff while you're at it...like about $90 worth.

635 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:56:45am

Sounds like we squished a big one in Pakistan...

Al-Qaeda takes a big hit

Pakistani Mohammad Usman was little-known other than for being wanted for the killing of a police officer in 1997 and his connections with prayer leaders at the Taliban-friendly Lal Masjid (Red Mosque) in Islamabad in the early 2000s.

His death this week in a United States drone strike in the North Waziristan tribal area along with several other militants therefore made few headlines.

In the al-Qaeda camp, however, Usman has been described as "irreplaceable", his death on a scale of the killings of Mustafa Abu al-Yazid and Shiekh Fateh al-Misri. Misri in May replaced Yazid, who was also killed in a drone attack in the North Waziristan tribal area, as al-Qaeda's chief commander in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Misri perished in a drone strike this month.

636 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:57:35am

re: #633 iossarian

Ack. 2000 UEFA cup, not 2001 Champions League.

637 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 8:57:46am

re: #628 Cannadian Club Akbar

San Fran Giants fans have been known to throw batteries at Dodgers players.

Battery Chucks!

638 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:02:20am

re: #636 iossarian

[Link: www.supanet.com...]

639 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:02:32am

re: #626 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Was philly where the battery pelting happened?

I still laugh at the idea of bat night in philly.

Pittsburgh in the 70s/early 80s IIRC. Someone in the stands threw one at Dave Parker.

640 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:04:04am

Battery Chuck: Northern Californian; see also 'No-Cal', 'Water Hoarder' [from the perceived tendency of Bay Area fans to throw batteries at opposing players, particularly at those from Southern California]

[Link: jimrome.stucknut.com...]

641 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:08:24am

re: #638 lawhawk

This is close:

Image: gala-fener_.jpg

643 _remembertonyc  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:28:41am

This is just a drive by, but did anyone see the story about FOX 5 in NY reporter Charles Leaf? He has aggressively reported on the mosque/community center project. Well, it turns out he is quite the predator. He is charged with some nasty acts which I will not link to. But if you google his name, you'll find it.

644 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:33:29am

re: #643 _remembertonyc

He's being held on $250,000 bond for sexually assaulting a minor (who happens to a 4-year old relation). If true, he deserves whatever NJ can dish out in punishment.

Leaf, the married father of two children and an ex-Marine, joined the station in 2006 and is the station’s investigative and general-assignment reporter who has covered national stories, including the Bernard Madoff scandal and the proposed development of a mosque near the World Trade Center site, according to his résumé on myfoxny.com.

A spokesperson for the station said Fox 5 was aware of the situation and was reviewing it.

Leaf is a graduate of Syracuse’s University’s Newhouse School of Public Communications with a B.S. in broadcast journalism, the Fox website said. He served in the Marines for five years and rose to the rank of sergeant.

Leaf was also an Embassy Marine, serving on an elite diplomatic program with the State Department at U.S. embassies overseas, with embassy postings that included Warsaw and Canberra.

645 Slap  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:36:29am

re: #590 lawhawk

Never been to Camden (moved away 4 months before it opened....), but having been fortunate enough to go to Fenway twice ('86 and '87), I have to say that for ANY baseball fan, it's a necessity if you can find a way to get there.

I swear, the first time I emerged from the corridor into the left-field seats, I felt overwhelmed by the FEEL of the place. Pure magic.

I'll also add that I noticed tons of real baseball fans -- people who loved the game as much as they loved the Sox, knowledgeable and respectful of good ballplayers regardless of team. It was like going to baseball church, truly remarkable.

The bleachers are a bit of a different matter. Second time was a night game, had right-field seats. Of course, a beachball was batted around, causing grousing from the baseball-literate longshoremen sitting in front of me. (They were a total hoot, and LOVED the game.) Mid-game, I hear a wave of laughter from the bleacher area, and looked over to find that the beachball had been replaced by an inflatable love doll.....

Fun night. Joe Niekro got thoroughly shelled by the sox, and I think it was his very last appearance.

If you're a baseball fan, go there if you can. It'll stay with you the rest of your life, I promise.....

646 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:42:59am

re: #645 Slap

Never been to Camden (moved away 4 months before it opened...), but having been fortunate enough to go to Fenway twice ('86 and '87), I have to say that for ANY baseball fan, it's a necessity if you can find a way to get there.

I swear, the first time I emerged from the corridor into the left-field seats, I felt overwhelmed by the FEEL of the place. Pure magic.

I'll also add that I noticed tons of real baseball fans -- people who loved the game as much as they loved the Sox, knowledgeable and respectful of good ballplayers regardless of team. It was like going to baseball church, truly remarkable.

The bleachers are a bit of a different matter. Second time was a night game, had right-field seats. Of course, a beachball was batted around, causing grousing from the baseball-literate longshoremen sitting in front of me. (They were a total hoot, and LOVED the game.) Mid-game, I hear a wave of laughter from the bleacher area, and looked over to find that the beachball had been replaced by an inflatable love doll...

Fun night. Joe Niekro got thoroughly shelled by the sox, and I think it was his very last appearance.

If you're a baseball fan, go there if you can. It'll stay with you the rest of your life, I promise...

Something that folk should try to do is see a game or two in small venues as well. I saw a minor league game on Staten Island a few years ago (seats right on the 1st base line). And wayyyyy back I got to see a Montreal Expo game in Jerry Park (sp?) which was probably the first game I went to at an age where I could appreciate baseball to some degree.

647 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:44:09am

re: #645 Slap

I have similar feelings about the first time at the old (remodeled) Yankee stadium. I'd never seen grass so green or immaculately done. That was early 1980s. You can almost get a similar feeling with the Grand hall they built with the new stadium, but something is missing - maybe it's just the patina of use and wear and tear of a stadium that has seen pretty much everything...

Fenway and Wrigley are on my bucket list for sure..

648 Ericus58  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:44:34am

Israel Selects Lockheed Martin F-35 for Its Next-Generation Fighter
Defense Talk 10/08/2010

FORT WORTH, Texas: Following the Israeli Government decision to select the Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] F-35 Lightning II as the Israel Air Force’s next-generation fighter aircraft, Israeli Ministry of Defense Director General (Maj. Gen. Ret.) Udi Shani signed the Letter of Offer and Acceptance for the procurement of the F-35 aircraft earlier today in New York. Israel will be the first country to receive the F-35 through the United States government’s Foreign Military Sales process.

649 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:45:43am

re: #646 oaktree

Richmond County ballpark has one of the most spectacular backdrops in the country - Lower Manhattan and NY bay. Great place to catch a game. The ballpark where the Salt Lake Bees play is also pretty damned great - Wasatch mountains rise up and get a wonderful glow (the Bees are the San Diego farm club). I've seen the Newark Bears play too - and that's quite a value too...

650 Slap  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:47:01am

re: #647 lawhawk

Wrigley's definitely top of my stadium bucket list.

And if you really want to be overwhelmed, make sure you read several WP Kinsella books beforehand.....baseball mysticism at its finest.

651 Ericus58  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:47:07am

BOEING VIDEO: 787 Dreamliner ZA006 First Flight

[Link: blog.seattlepi.com...]

"What's better than a Boeing 787 Dreamliner first flight video? One with commentary from Boeing employees, including the lead pilot Christine Walsh. The sixth 787 Dreamliner took to the skies on October 4th and had a successful (yet shortened) first flight."

652 Lidane  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 9:51:25am

re: #427 Lidane

Going back to this for a moment. I have sources now. Woo! Even talked to my professor this morning about the paper, and since he's going to be at the Austin City Limits festival this weekend, the original deadline of tonight at midnight is extended until Monday morning. I can now breathe a bit easier and will easily finish this paper now.

I'm still not writing another group paper ever again. I'll write a part of it, but someone else can do the final edits next time. =P

653 Tigger2005  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 10:58:58am

re: #175 NJDhockeyfan

I don't feel like I lost anything. I haven't even posted any anti-AGW links. All I did is give my opinion and all hell broke lose.

What do you want, NJD? To state your opinion and have it ignored or praised or something? Do you want people to say, "You have an opinion! Good for you! You get a gold star!" Do you expect everyone to say, "I most respectfully disagree with your opinion, good sir, but I shall not question it and I shall fight to the death for your right to have it"? What?

You think you should be able to spout ignorant opinions and not get called on them, not have them questioned, not be asked to defend them with facts. You've been on LGF a while haven't you NJD? Don't you by know by now that that's not how we roll?

654 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:17:44am

I'm completely boggled by the fact that no one here seems to think that this interview was a bit absurd. Did Rachel Maddow just ask Art Robinson to explain hormo-whateveritwas in a segment less than 20 minutes? Most people cant get basic physics in a whole semester. Was she kidding? and in defense of a scientific conclusion no less...especially considering the the low probability that many of those watching her show if any have the scientific background necessary to understand the issue. That's barely enough time to put forth a good hypothesis. There was no way he could do that and given that Rachel is a Harvard grad, I'm going to give her credit and assume that she knew very well what she was doing and wasn't being a mindless idiot (though maybe that's saying the same thing.) Science is complicated and often counterintuitive. You don't prove the validity of an idea on a political news entertainment show and that's what she was asking him to do. Surely the author of this blog would agree with this...
But it does speak to the underlying problem here in the States with our current media. It's never a discussion of ideas; never exploration of truth. It's all just my side against your side. Did Maddow ask her viewers to explore his ideas. Lets face it, Maddow wasn't going to allow him to put forth a reasonable explanation even if he could. We all knew there was a lag. So did Maddow. She's done satellite interviews in the past. There is no doubt that she interrupted him every time he attempted to explain it. This is just the given. It's what you see with your eyes and hear with your ears. What conclusion you come to about why she did it, I realize, is purely subjective. To me, you have to be weary of anyone that stifles real discussion. That interview went terribly for Maddow. It certainly made me think less of her. I'd never heard of Arthur Robinson, but he certainly didn't seem like an idiot. Though I do have to question how smart it was for him to go on her show. News entertainment shows aren't amenable to serious discussions. They think their viewers are more entertained by shouting matches and snide remarks. I suppose sometimes they are right about that.

656 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:23:50am

re: #653 Tigger2005

haha. this is funny. he's calling NJD's opinions ignorant. I wonder how informed his opinions are. Listen, you are choosing to believe what one group of people says. That's all your doing. I'm almost certain you haven't done the research necessary to come to an informed conclusion. You're probably not a scientist. Yet you'd call out someone else for not believing in the same thing as you. I imagine scientists have better things to do than call people names on little websites. One should always remain a skeptic of all second hand information.

657 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:27:44am

re: #655 Charles

"Baloney" is hardly an acceptable counter argument to his claims. I haven't heard your scientific arguments against his theories. Please present them. I like to come to informed conclusions, so make sure you study up and be as comprehensive as possible.

658 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:29:46am

re: #657 reason0911

"Baloney" is hardly an acceptable counter argument to his claims. I haven't heard your scientific arguments against his theories. Please present them. I like to come to informed conclusions, so make sure you study up and be as comprehensive as possible.

Image: facepalm.jpg

659 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:31:43am

re: #658 Charles

Sorry. I don't click on links. You can express your ideas here on this page though.

660 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:32:44am

re: #656 reason0911

One should always remain a skeptic of all second hand information.

So you 'remain skeptical' of every scientific fact you haven't personally done empirical verification of?

661 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:34:40am

re: #660 Obdicut

I remain open to new ideas and information. It's the key to progress.

662 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:35:07am

re: #660 Obdicut

and I'm a true progressive

663 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:37:50am

re: #659 reason0911

Sorry. I don't click on links.

Really? How in the world do you use the Internet then?

664 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:37:57am

re: #661 reason0911

I remain open to new ideas and information. It's the key to progress.

Hey, so am I...but Art Robinson was merely spouting conspiracy theory. As far as the physics go, he says we can spray radioactive waste around the planet and dispose of it safely that way, since small levels of radiation are not harmful. As someone who was treated with radiation, once, I can assure you that even in tiny, tiny doses that shit is poison.

665 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:39:02am

re: #661 reason0911

I remain open to new ideas and information. It's the key to progress.

Could you answer my straightforward question, please?

Do you accept any scientific facts that you haven't personally empirically verified?

Or are you skeptical of every bit of science you haven't proved to yourself in empirical tests?

666 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:39:56am

re: #661 reason0911

I remain open to new ideas and information.

As long as it can be done without clicking any of those link things.

667 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:42:52am

and in any case, scientific "facts" are always changing and with the rapid technological changes taking place, I imagine we'll be able to better test the validity of our past conclusions and our future hypothesis. As the doctor stated, 15 years ago the debate was different. Factors were unknown about HIV and Aids. Today there are factors that are unknown. There is much debate about testing for HIV. The standards change from country to country. The markers accepted for the diagnosis of HIV are different from one country to the next. You could be classified as having in one country and not having it in another. Certainly that leaves a bit of uncertainty, and leaves the discussion open to different theories. Wouldn't you agree?

668 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:43:46am

re: #667 reason0911

Different theories as to what, exactly?

669 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:44:07am

re: #664 darthstar

I need more than your assurances and anecdotal evidence. I need the scientific data which I'm sure you have since you've reached this conclusion already.

670 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:46:14am

re: #665 Obdicut

That was a straightforward answer. There are things that I accept because generally speaking more informed people than I have come to those conclusions and have seemingly done the leg work. However since I don't have first hand knowledge, it would be foolhardy of me to scorn those who present new theories without fully exploring them.

671 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:47:03am

re: #669 reason0911

I need more than your assurances and anecdotal evidence. I need the scientific data which I'm sure you have since you've reached this conclusion already.

Of course, you won't click on any link that would provide you with said evidence.

672 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:48:21am

re: #671 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

simple solution; type in the web address dear friend.

673 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:49:36am

re: #663 Charles

you're right. I misspoke. I rarely click on links of unknown origin. I try to avoid viruses.

674 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:49:56am

re: #669 reason0911

I need more than your assurances and anecdotal evidence. I need the scientific data which I'm sure you have since you've reached this conclusion already.

It's out there for you to read. Sadly, however, it requires you to move your mouse over some colored text until the little finger icon appears, and then, with a steady hand and a strong heart, actually click on said text. In the reasonable world (where people don't name themselves after terror-attacks), these things are called links, and people click them to learn more information...or to be entertained, either by porn or people like yourself.

675 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:51:20am

lre: #674 darthstar

lol. that's my daughters birthday. Other things happened that day.

676 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:51:39am

I love this breed of troll.

677 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:51:58am

re: #672 reason0911

simple solution; type in the web address dear friend.

Ah yes, I'll spend my time typing out web addresses because you're too lazy and paranoid. Splendid idea, I'll jump right on that.

678 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:51:58am

re: #673 reason0911

you're right. I misspoke. I rarely click on links of unknown origin. I try to avoid viruses.

Do you wear a condom while you surf the web? Seriously, anyone with a fifth grade education these days knows that if you mouse over a link you can read the URL, or right click and select "Properties" to see where it goes. I'm afraid of viruses! Get the fuck off of Internet Explorer then, and you'll be fine.

679 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:52:27am

re: #670 reason0911

Actually, the cool thing about science is that when theories are established, it provides an easy way to test new theories. New theories can be easily first tested against things that are known to be true, and, if they mesh with that, then they can be tested to see if the new theories provide better predictive or explanatory results than current theories. If they do, then they're accepted as the better theory; if they're somewhere in the ballpark, they're accepted as one of the competing theories on the subject.

You don't start from zero on every new theory, at all. Your view has nothing to do with the Western tradition of science.

680 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:53:12am

re: #676 Charles

troll? I'm not sure what you mean by that. I am an individual who disagrees with many of the comments posted here in relation to this blog post. I decided to voice that disagreement, in what I hope was a reasonable way. Name calling isn't necessary.

681 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:54:21am

re: #678 darthstar

You must be the brains of this operation. :D

No need to be so hostile. I haven't insulted you...yet.

682 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:56:18am

re: #679 Obdicut

I agree and that isn't what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that whenever new information is available, it must be considered. I'm saying that all arguments and the evidence must be considered. If one hasn't seriously considered all the arguments, one shouldn't berate those that come to different conclusions>

683 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:57:58am

re: #681 reason0911

You must be the brains of this operation. :D

No need to be so hostile. I haven't insulted you...yet.

You couldn't insult me if you wanted to. And I wasn't being hostile, I was simply mocking you. You claimed you're afraid of viruses. This isn't 1998 anymore. Viruses aren't as easy to get...even on Windows. What, pray tell, do you do when you're not trying to rationalize the arguments of people like Robinson? (Please tell me you're not in IT)

684 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:58:29am

re: #677 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

No. You don't have to. You are the one making a big deal of it. It's a very small thing to me.

You did take the time, however, to type this message. I'd think you'd be more willing to take the time to support your conclusions. I guess I'll just be left in the dark on this one.

685 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:58:38am

re: #682 reason0911

I agree and that isn't what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that whenever new information is available, it must be considered. I'm saying that all arguments and the evidence must be considered. If one hasn't seriously considered all the arguments, one shouldn't berate those that come to different conclusions>

Not all arguments can be considered valid and some can be dismissed without serious consideration.

686 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:59:28am

re: #683 darthstar

lol. no I'm not. that would be terrible for my client wouldn't it, though I like to think I'm smart enough to learn anything that interests me.

687 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:00:41pm

re: #673 reason0911

you're right. I misspoke. I rarely click on links of unknown origin. I try to avoid viruses.

I don't believe viruses exist. Have you actually investigated for yourself the process by which viruses are created? If not, how can you claim to know that they exist, and why are you afraid of them? If you have done this important research, please explain to us how these viruses are supposed to work, in detail, with footnotes, or I'll be forced to conclude that your claims of having a truly open mind are overblown and vapid.

688 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:00:56pm

re: #685 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

You're right, but when a scientist offers a hypothesis, I'm more inclined to consider it than the word of Rachel Maddow. On what grounds are you dismissing his arguments?

689 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:01:00pm

re: #685 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Not all arguments can be considered valid and some can be dismissed without serious consideration.

Well, except the argument that fossils were planted by Satan to fuck with our heads and make us doubt Jesus was a dino-jockey...everyone knows dinosaur bones age exponentially faster as time goes on, so 5,000 years looks like 5,000,000.

690 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:03:08pm

re: #688 reason0911

You're right, but when a scientist offers a hypothesis, I'm more inclined to consider it than the word of Rachel Maddow. On what grounds are you dismissing his arguments?

Yes, but that fucking retard isn't even a scientist...he's a charlatan. (link is safe...it goes to [Link: www.m-w.com...] -- Merriam Webster's online dictionary, which is an electronic version of a book which contains words and their definitions, pronunciations, and often their origin).

691 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:03:29pm

re: #687 Charles

this is a non-sequitur. I have experienced the effects of viruses and until someone comes up with some other hypothesis about why my pc is on the fritz, I'll have to assume they do exist. But if someone comes up with an alternate explanation to my computer problems, I'm certainly open to listening. This seems second nature...I'm really surprised by your response.

692 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:04:57pm

re: #691 reason0911

this is a non-sequitur. I have experienced the effects of viruses and until someone comes up with some other hypothesis about why my pc is on the fritz, I'll have to assume they do exist. But if someone comes up with an alternate explanation to my computer problems, I'm certainly open to listening. This seems second nature...I'm really surprised by your response.

Could just be malware...you could have a bunch of invalid registry keys, so your system is constantly trying to resolve pointers to data which no longer exists on your hard drive...or maybe it's time to trade in that 286 for a newer machine.

693 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:05:55pm

re: #690 darthstar

Hmm. I guess that depends on your definition of a scientists.

694 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:06:25pm

re: #688 reason0911

You're right, but when a scientist offers a hypothesis, I'm more inclined to consider it than the word of Rachel Maddow. On what grounds are you dismissing his arguments?

His history of crack pot theories, his associations with hard core science deniers, and his backing of quack medical science.

695 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:07:03pm

re: #691 reason0911

Here's an alternate theory: Rather than viruses, hackers are actively hacking into your computer and using remote access to do things on them. Rather than a program, it's actual user agents doing it.

696 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:07:07pm

re: #667 reason0911

Bologna. And Arthur Robinson offers a poor excuse in that it was "15 years ago." By 1995 a great deal was known about AIDs and HIV. HIV was discovered in 1984. The time line for 1995 alone includes:

* On February 8, FDA approved Mepron (atovaquone) for the treatment of mild to moderate Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia (PCP) in patients who are intolerant to trimethoprim-sulfamethoxazole (TMP-SMX).
* On February 23, FDA revised the guidance for Home Specimen Collection Kit Systems Intended for Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV-1 and/or HIV-2) Antibody Testing.
* On March 24, FDA cleared for marketing the first blood test to measure latex antibodies in the blood. The test can be used to help identify people who are allergic to latex and as such assist people in the use of barrier products to prevent HIV transmission.
* On April 14, FDA approved Chartex International plc. London, U.K. premarket approval application for the Femidom Female Condom. The product is an intravaginal barrier device and is indicated for use to help prevent pregnancy, which will be used as an indicator of the device's performance in preventing STDs.
* In June 1995, FDA published "An FDA Guide To Choosing Medical Treatments," FDA Consumer.
* In June 1995, FDA allowed the initiation of an open label study for saquinavir for the treatment of HIV infection and AIDS. Saquinavir, manufactured by Hoffmann-La Roche, is the first protease inhibitor made available outside of ongoing clinical trials.
* On June 6, FDA revised the blood donor criteria to exclude prisoners from donating blood, blood components and plasma for 12 months from the last date of incarceration.
* On June 11, FDA issued a Dear Healthcare Professional letter describing post marketing reports of new onset diabetes mellitus, hyperglycemia or exacerbation of existing diabetes mellitus occurring in HIV-infected patients receiving protease inhibitor therapy, summarizing the reports, and encouraging health care providers to report such cases, or other serious toxicity associated with the use of protease inhibitors, to the FDA's MedWatch program.
* On June 16, FDA approved Foscavir (foscarnet) for the treatment of acyclovir-resistant herpes simplex virus.
* August 1995, FDA recommended that blood establishments should implement donor screening for HIV-1 antigen using licensed test kits. Although, currently there are no tests for HIV-1 antigen(s) approved for donor screening, FDA issued the recommendation on HIV-1 in advance of the availability of such test in order to provide blood and plasma establishments with maximum time to prepare for this testing.
* On September 1, FDA authorized pre-approval distribution of intravenous cidofovir (Vistide) under a treatment IND protocol for HIV-infected persons relapsing cytomegalovirus (CMV) retinitis that has progressed despite treatment.
* On September 8, FDA published in the Federal Register a proposed rule to amend its regulations pertaining to investigational new drug applications (INDs) and new drug applications (NDAs). The proposed rule is responsive to one of the recommendations made by the National Task Force on AIDS Drug Development. The proposed rule would clearly define in the NDA format and content requirements the need to present effectiveness and safety data for important demographic subgroups, specifically gender, age, and racial subgroups.
* On October 12, FDA approved Biaxin (clarithromycin) for the prevention of Mycobacterium avium complex (MAC).
* On October 27, FDA granted marketing approval for Cytovene capsules (oral ganciclovir) as a prophylactic treatment for the prevention of HIV-related cytomegalovirus (CMV) disease.

Continues.

697 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:07:27pm

re: #693 reason0911

Hmm. I guess that depends on your definition of a scientists.

It's "definition of scientists," or "definition of a scientist." Case matters.

698 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:07:27pm

re: #692 darthstar

I have a vaio. it's fairly new, but my kids do download quite a bit on it. I'm going to have to take it to sony for some restoration.

699 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:08:17pm

Big guns rolling in. Ludwig is about to drop into this.

700 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:08:23pm

re: #695 Obdicut

Here's an alternate theory: Rather than viruses, hackers are actively hacking into your computer and using remote access to do things on them. Rather than a program, it's actual user agents doing it.

Ooh...that requires wrapping one's entire body in tin-foil to stop.

701 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:08:33pm

re: #695 Obdre: #697 darthstar

lol.

702 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:09:46pm

re: #695 Obdicut

present your evidence.

703 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:10:12pm

re: #698 reason0911

I have a vaio. it's fairly new, but my kids do download quite a bit on it. I'm going to have to take it to sony for some restoration.

Lesson #1 in keeping a machine healthy: Keep the fucking kids off of it. Buy them a desktop, get the wizards at Best Buy to set a parental filter for you, or create accounts without admin access for them so they can't install shit, and you'll be fine. Sorry, but your wounds are self-inflicted.

704 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:11:00pm

re: #702 reason0911

I'm sorry, can you answer if you feel this is a reasonable theory that you should spend your time investigating?

705 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:12:04pm

re: #696 Gus 802

this isn't the science. to come to a conclusion about what the virus is and isn't one can't rely on a timeline. That isn't helpful at all.

But honestly I think you're losing my point. I'm not arguing for or against his ideas. I'm stating the absurdity of arguing against an idea you haven't explored and don't have the background to address in any serious way.

706 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:12:15pm

re: #667 reason0911


Ahh the trope about nothing being settled in science!

Let me ask you a question, is the Earth round or Flat? Is that settled science? Will that ever change with any new discoveries?

I wrote an detailed response to that here. Don't worry, it is a link to this website - in a different place.

Pre Science lecture: Is anything ever settled in science?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

707 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:13:14pm

re: #703 darthstar

I know!!! My daughter now has our old labtop. It's going to make life easier for my computer. good advice and duly noted.

708 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:14:27pm

re: #706 LudwigVanQuixote

that seems quite settled and no one is arguing that it isn't. this is also a non-sequitur.
btw, have you visited the tropes website. It's pretty awesome.

709 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:15:09pm

Timeline: A Brief History of HIV/AIDS - AEGiS

1983

* CDC (U.S.) warns blood banks of a possible problem with the blood supply.

* Institut Pasteur (France) finds the virus (HIV).

* US President Ronald Reagan has not mentioned the word "AIDS" in public yet.

1984

* Dr. Robert Gallo (US) claims he discovered the virus that causes AIDS; however, this is about a year after the French discovery.

* US President Ronald Reagan has not mentioned the word "AIDS" in public yet.

1985

* The FDA (US) approves the first HIV antibody test. Blood products begin to be tested in the US and Japan.

* The first International Conference on AIDS is held in Atlanta (US).

* US President Ronald Reagan mentions the word "AIDS" in public for the first time in response to a reporters questions on September 17, 1985. See, also: Associated Press, Los Angeles Times


710 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:15:25pm

re: #708 reason0911

that seems quite settled and no one is arguing that it isn't. this is also a non-sequitur.
btw, have you visited the tropes website. It's pretty awesome.

Got a link?

711 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:15:45pm

re: #705 reason0911

this isn't the science. to come to a conclusion about what the virus is and isn't one can't rely on a timeline. That isn't helpful at all.

But honestly I think you're losing my point. I'm not arguing for or against his ideas. I'm stating the absurdity of arguing against an idea you haven't explored and don't have the background to address in any serious way.

What hypothesis? This CRAP?

First, the arguments presented against the HIV hypothesis are sound, although they are difficult to independently evaluate. In part, they cite lack of evidence. Who has time to check this with a review of 77,000 papers? The burden of proof is on the HIV advocates - a burden they have not accepted in a forthright manner.

712 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:17:04pm

re: #708 reason0911

Actually, there are.

http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm

You can just Google flat earth society if you don't want to click on that link.

Do you need to consider their theories, or can you dismiss them a priori?

713 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:17:05pm

Or this CRAP?

Additional readings for the AIDS article in Access to Energy 22-3 are "The Longevity of Homosexuals Before and After the AIDS Epidemic,'' by P. Cameron, W. L. Playfair, and S. Wellum, Omega Journal of Death and Dying 29, pp 249-272 (1994) and "AIDS: The Epidemic that Never Was,'' New African, pp 8-11, December (1993).

Cameron, et al report research results showing that the median age at death for homosexual men dying of AIDS is 39 years and that for homosexual men who do not die of AIDS is 42. By comparison, the value for heterosexual married men is 75. This is evidence in support of the hypothesis that AIDS may be little more than a general classification of deaths resulting from exposure to homosexual behavior.

714 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:17:26pm

re: #688 reason0911

You're right, but when a scientist offers a hypothesis, I'm more inclined to consider it than the word of Rachel Maddow. On what grounds are you dismissing his arguments?

Well, an hypothesis is nothing more than an educated guess. One person's hypothesis might turn out to be correct - or mostly correct - or at least the general picture. Of course most of them end up being wrong.

What matters is when the data rolls in and thousands of scientists corroborate an hypothesis by different avenues.

As to the AIDS virus, this is one of the most researched things in medical history. The budget that goes into dealing with it, is vastly larger than that of NASA for instance and has been for years. There are hundreds of thousands of cases on record and thousands of researchers who are actually in the field or a related field who study it - and have been studying it since the 80's.

Now over all of them, you are interested in taking the word of a rude, proven fraud of a shamed scientist turned political hack.

Good show!

715 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:17:56pm

Step 1) Ask for evidence

Step 2) Ignore evidence when provided

Step 3) Complain

Step 4) Repeat

716 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:18:45pm

re: #708 reason0911

that seems quite settled and no one is arguing that it isn't. this is also a non-sequitur.
btw, have you visited the tropes website. It's pretty awesome.

No it is not a non-sequitor. It goes straight to the point of your misunderstanding. Things do get settled in science by a preponderance of evidence. HIV is the cause of AIDs. This is settled science.

717 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:18:59pm

re: #706 LudwigVanQuixote

I'm not arguing that we don't accept the science available to us. I'm saying that dismissing a theory without exploration is absurd. You have no objective basis to come to a contrary conclusion. You've chosen either to believe or not to believe, but that hardly makes you right or puts you in a position to criticize those who haven't come to the same belief as you.
It's the same point I make with my Christian friend who's always trying to save me. You believe in God and Jesus Christ. Good for you. You don't know but you have faith. You recognize that it is a leap of faith yet you criticize me for not taking that same leap of faith without providing any evidence to support your claim. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not in a position to...and nor is anyone on this thread that I can tell. Maybe there are some scientists here, but I doubt it.

718 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:19:08pm

re: #715 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Step 1) Ask for evidence

Step 2) Ignore evidence when provided

Step 3) Complain

Step 4) Repeat

5) Engage in sideline banter about "real life" to make it seem like you're a regular guy and not just a corporate-funded shill. "My daughter!" "Her laptop!"

719 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:20:15pm

re: #717 reason0911

If dismissing a theory is absurd, then what do you call the opinions of someone like Art Robinson who is, in fact, dismissing not only theory, but emprical evidence?

720 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:20:45pm

re: #718 iossarian

5) Engage in sideline banter about "real life" to make it seem like you're a regular guy and not just a corporate-funded shill. "My daughter!" "Her laptop!"

I was throwing that under complain.

721 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:21:40pm

re: #719 darthstar

If dismissing a theory is absurd, then what do you call the opinions of someone like Art Robinson who is, in fact, dismissing not only theory, but emprical evidence?

Art Robinson is a brave scientist! A shining beacon of truthiness surrounded by the darkness of liberal conspiracies designed to feminize the manly United States of Americaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...

722 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:24:03pm

More garbage "theories":

U.S. government AIDS programs are now receiving $6 billion per year and are based entirely upon the hypothesis that HIV virus causes AIDS. Yet, the articles referenced above and numerous additional publications by scientists who have become involved in this controversy state that: attempts to cause AIDS experimentally with HIV have completely failed; thousands of AIDS victims are HIV-free; and HIV shows none of the classical characteristics of a disease-producing organism. Moreover, AIDS is not a unique disease - it is an increased susceptibility to many ordinary diseases presumably as a result of depressed immune response. This depressed immunity can result from many other factors including those especially prevalent in the AIDS afflicted population - drug abuse and unhygienic exposure to very large numbers of different disease vectors. Moreover, large numbers of HIV carriers who are symptom-free are being treated by powerful life-threatening drugs that kill people in ways very similar to AIDS.

These dissident articles are, of course, only a tiny fraction of the remarkable 77,000 papers that have been published about AIDS, but ultimately only one paper will be sufficient to describe the truth.

It's not even a theory. It's more like a wingnut op-ed piece.

723 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:24:21pm

re: #712 Obdicut

this is a satirical website.

724 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:25:12pm

re: #721 iossarian

Art Robinson is a brave scientist! A shining beacon of truthiness surrounded by the darkness of liberal conspiracies designed to feminize the manly United States of Americaaa...


In other words, he was interviewed by a LESBIAN!!11ty!

By the way, I went to the Giants game with two lesbians last night, and Lincecum still threw 14 Ks...

725 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:26:06pm

re: #719 darthstar

he is not dismissing it. He said that the burden of proof was on the advocates of the science. that was 15 years ago. but again, i'd like to point out that there is still much uncertainty about what HIV is and how to diagnose it.

726 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:26:50pm

re: #712 Obdicut

Actually, there are.

http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatea rthsociety.htm

You can just Google flat earth society if you don't want to click on that link.

Do you need to consider their theories, or can you dismiss them a priori?

You gotta love their mission statement.

727 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:27:11pm

HIV/AIDS: Causes - MayoClinic.com

Causes
By Mayo Clinic staff

Scientists believe a virus similar to HIV first occurred in some populations of chimps and monkeys in Africa, where they're hunted for food. Contact with an infected monkey's blood during butchering or cooking may have allowed the virus to cross into humans and become HIV.

How does HIV become AIDS?

HIV destroys CD4 cells — a specific type of white blood cell that plays a large role in helping your body fight disease. Your immune system weakens as more CD4 cells are killed. You can have an HIV infection for years before it progresses to AIDS.

To be diagnosed with AIDS, you must have a CD4 count under 200 or experience an AIDS-defining complication, such as:

* Pneumocystis jiroveci pneumonia
* Cytomegalovirus
* Tuberculosis
* Toxoplasmosis
* Cryptosporidiosis

How HIV is transmitted

To become infected with HIV, infected blood, semen or vaginal secretions must enter your body. You can't become infected through ordinary contact — hugging, kissing, dancing or shaking hands — with someone who has HIV or AIDS. HIV can't be transmitted through the air, water or via insect bites.

728 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:27:22pm

re: #717 reason0911

I'm not arguing that we don't accept the science available to us.

The science available to us shows, through the evidence of millions of cases, that HIV is the cause of AIDS.

I'm saying that dismissing a theory without exploration is absurd.

Do you know what the difference between a theory and an hypothesis is? Clearly not.

Here, I wrote a detailed essay about that too, and how the scientific method actually works.

How science works and why we should trust it: Pre-science lecture 2
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

You have no objective basis to come to a contrary conclusion.

My objective basis is the work of the worldwide medical and virological community. I am not a physician or a virologist however. I am however, a professional physicist. Since we are not all capable of knowing every field, we have to develop the skills to spot real science and real scientific inquiry. Tens of thousands of corroborating accounts from different respected researchers counts.

You've chosen either to believe or not to believe, but that hardly makes you right or puts you in a position to criticize those who haven't come to the same belief as you.

Actually this is precisely what you are doing. Science is not about belief at all. It is about data and evidence.


It's the same point I make with my Christian friend who's always trying to save me. You believe in God and Jesus Christ. Good for you. You don't know but you have faith. You recognize that it is a leap of faith yet you criticize me for not taking that same leap of faith without providing any evidence to support your claim.

That would be you. What evidence do you have on this matter of your own?

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not in a position to...and nor is anyone on this thread that I can tell. Maybe there are some scientists here, but I doubt it.

Well too bad for you that I'm here kiddo :)

729 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:28:28pm

re: #725 reason0911

he is not dismissing it. He said that the burden of proof was on the advocates of the science. that was 15 years ago. but again, i'd like to point out that there is still much uncertainty about what HIV is and how to diagnose it.

It's called a blood test. They look for antibodies in the blood, and can have results in about 30 minutes. There's no uncertainty about it at all.

730 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:28:30pm

re: #725 reason0911

he is not dismissing it. He said that the burden of proof was on the advocates of the science. that was 15 years ago. but again, i'd like to point out that there is still much uncertainty about what HIV is and how to diagnose it.

It was already settled 15 years ago. Arthur Robinson had no excuse then and he has no excuse now. HIV was discovered in 1983.

731 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:28:41pm

re: #717 reason0911

ahahan "reason0911" I love the names you guys come up with

732 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:28:49pm

re: #720 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

lol. I'm sitting at my desk with my door closed neglecting to do my work because it's boring and I hate it. Luckily I'm a manager so I don't have too much to be concerned about in the way of being caught. in a half hour I'm going to leave work, buy myself an awesome coat and make it home in time to take my little one to karate...

or I could just be a shill.

733 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:29:58pm

re: #723 reason0911

this is a satirical website.

Gee, I wonder how that could be? however, they still accurately represent a lot of the theories of flat earthers-- why are theories disallowed simply because they're satirical?

Here's the real deal:

[Link: theflatearthsociety.org...]

734 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:30:03pm

By the way to my lizard buddies, this guy is exactly why I wrote those pre-science lectures first. The things they say follow a certain play-book based on certain carefully cultivated (by people like Robinson and Stietz and their crackpot foundations) misunderstandings. It is as predictable as it is dull; ignorant, whiny and arrogantly stupid.

735 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:30:06pm

re: #725 reason0911

he is not dismissing it. He said that the burden of proof was on the advocates of the science. that was 15 years ago. but again, i'd like to point out that there is still much uncertainty about what HIV is and how to diagnose it.

I love blog comment dumbshits in dead threads who make up crazy bullshit about science


I love guys like the you, don't ever change :D We beat your dumb asses all over the internet, it's a great way to start the day

736 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:30:06pm

Of course now the question is "What evidence do we have that Ludwig is in fact a scientist?"

No links please.

///

737 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:30:40pm

re: #728 LudwigVanQuixote

do you have a website?

738 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:30:49pm

re: #734 LudwigVanQuixote

By the way to my lizard buddies, this guy is exactly why I wrote those pre-science lectures first. The things they say follow a certain play-book based on certain carefully cultivated (by people like Robinson and Stietz and their crackpot foundations) misunderstandings. It is as predictable as it is dull; ignorant, whiny and arrogantly stupid.

Too bad they'll never read what you wrote.

739 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:30:52pm

re: #732 reason0911


or I could just be a shill.

The thing is, it's difficult to come up with an alternative explanation of why people so assiduously avoid the evidence.

I know, I know, you don't like to click on links because of the viruses.

740 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:31:15pm
741 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:31:32pm

re: #732 reason0911

lol. I'm sitting at my desk with my door closed neglecting to do my work because it's boring and I hate it. Luckily I'm a manager so I don't have too much to be concerned about in the way of being caught. in a half hour I'm going to leave work, buy myself an awesome coat and make it home in time to take my little one to karate...

or I could just be a shill.

Don't forget to stop by plumbing on your way out of the store before going out and buying a coat...your sense of reason is clogged, and what you think is awesome might look foolish to your kid.

742 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:32:09pm
743 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:32:45pm

re: #735 WindUpBird

I love blog comment dumbshits in dead threads who make up crazy bullshit about science


Well, one could argue he had a bit of a Lazarus effect on this thread.

744 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:33:43pm

re: #728 LudwigVanQuixote

I'm going to need re: #728 LudwigVanQuixote

I don't need a link to you telling me how science works. I need you to give me the science that convinced you and point out flaws in his science and conclusion. Can you do this?

745 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:33:51pm

re: #743 darthstar

Well, one could argue he had a bit of a Lazarus effect on this thread.

It's sorta like when cats see a dragonfly, they're like OH HAY! and they aaaal cluster around

and then they bat it around for a while, and then they eat it

746 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:34:07pm

re: #744 reason0911

I'm going to need re: #728 LudwigVanQuixote

I don't need a link to you telling me how science works. I need you to give me the science that convinced you and point out flaws in his science and conclusion. Can you do this?

Do you call it sauce or gravy?

747 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:34:11pm

re: #741 darthstar

you're a clever one aren't you...

748 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:34:22pm

re: #737 reason0911

do you have a website?

Most of my stuff is here. I have a mini blog on this site. You can check out my posts and get there by following either of the links I gave you. I am particularly interested in - and do research into AGW. You will find, in my non-political posts, links to published, peer-reviewed journals and government reports that will supply you with all of the data you could possibly want.

749 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:34:32pm

re: #747 reason0911

you're a clever one aren't you...

Soda or pop? Just curious what side of the country you're from

750 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:34:47pm

re: #744 reason0911

I'm going to need re: #728 LudwigVanQuixote

I don't need a link to you telling me how science works. I need you to give me the science that convinced you and point out flaws in his science and conclusion. Can you do this?

Step 2

751 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:35:45pm

re: #744 reason0911

I'm going to need re: #728 LudwigVanQuixote

I don't need a link to you telling me how science works. I need you to give me the science that convinced you and point out flaws in his science and conclusion. Can you do this?

To which question? Robinson says lots of completely bogus and kooky things. Which one of his lunacies would you like me to debunk?

752 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:35:48pm

Heh. Look at that karma rating. Registered less than 2 hours and already -122.

753 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:35:49pm

re: #749 WindUpBird

I don't know what that means but I'm from Brooklyn NY better known as crooklyn or at least that's how my friends and I used to refer to it after the spike lee movie came out.

754 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:35:56pm

re: #748 LudwigVanQuixote

He don' need no steenking links.

755 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:36:28pm

re: #753 reason0911

I don't know what that means but I'm from Brooklyn NY better known as crooklyn or at least that's how my friends and I used to refer to it after the spike lee movie came out.

Step 3

756 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:36:30pm

re: #750 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Step 2

Well they get the same plays as the Disco Institute types, because that play book was written by folks like Robinson and Steitz.

757 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:37:11pm

re: #673 reason0911

you're right. I misspoke. I rarely click on links of unknown origin. I try to avoid viruses.

Lame.

758 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:37:12pm

re: #752 Charles

I registered so I could comment on the post. I saw a blog post elsewhere about the interview but they didn't provide a working link so I googled it and this is what I got. Saw the comments and decided to blow off work for the rest of the afternoon.

759 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:37:16pm

re: #753 reason0911

I don't know what that means but I'm from Brooklyn NY better known as crooklyn or at least that's how my friends and I used to refer to it after the spike lee movie came out.


eh you're probably from so cal

everyone on the internet in so cal likes to say they're from new york

760 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:38:22pm

re: #759 WindUpBird

eh you're probably from so cal

everyone on the internet in so cal likes to say they're from new york

I'm in SoCal and screw New York.

761 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:38:51pm

re: #744 reason0911

I'm going to need re: #728 LudwigVanQuixote

I don't need a link to you telling me how science works. I need you to give me the science that convinced you and point out flaws in his science and conclusion. Can you do this?

It's always the same old shit, isn't it? "I need you to tell me again." "No, that didn't satisfy me, I need you to tell me again." "Can you point me to some real evidence?"

Then it's "But the solutions being proposed are ECONOMIC SUICIDE."

Then it's "If the AGW crowd would just stop using this as a POLITICAL FOOTBALL, maybe I could get on board."

Then it's back to step one, with a different registration.

762 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:38:53pm

re: #747 reason0911

you're a clever one aren't you...

You said you're a manager who isn't too worried about getting caught doing jack shit at work because you have an office. I interpreted that to mean that your employees were out working on the floor...sarcastically, I admit. But what it really means is that you're in a job you don't like, but you feel relatively safe in it, so long as you spend two or three hours a week generating excel sheets for your boss and don't look too disinterested in meetings.

763 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:39:38pm

you know what, this is ridiculout and I'm not going to waste time proving I'm a real person. here's a link to my facebook.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

764 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:40:11pm

re: #758 reason0911

I registered so I could comment on the post. I saw a blog post elsewhere about the interview but they didn't provide a working link so I googled it and this is what I got. Saw the comments and decided to blow off work for the rest of the afternoon.

I hope you typed in the URL instead of clicking the virus-laden link. If not, you must immediately disinfect your intranets to avoid permanent brickage.

765 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:40:16pm

re: #761 iossarian

he didn't tell me anything. lol. he sent me to a link that is off topic. what are you talking about?!

766 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:40:56pm

re: #764 Charles

i typed it in... well actually I copied and pasted.

767 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:41:06pm

re: #763 reason0911

you know what, this is ridiculout and I'm not going to waste time proving I'm a real person. here's a link to my facebook.

You're not real until we say you're real.

768 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:41:33pm

re: #766 reason0911

i typed it in... well actually I copied and pasted.

Whew. That was close.

769 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:41:35pm

re: #766 reason0911

i typed it in... well actually I copied and pasted.

[Link: disney.go.com...]

770 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:42:24pm

re: #762 darthstar

I'm really smart. My work gets done fast and the owner feels confident in my abilities. It's a small office, kinda like a family.

771 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:42:50pm

re: #766 reason0911

i typed it in... well actually I copied and pasted.

/facepalm

Yes, because that guarantees you wont hit a redirect or anything like that.

Moron.

772 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:43:03pm

re: #769 Gus 802

yep. like that.

773 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:43:13pm

re: #770 reason0911

I'm really smart


I'm going to need to see some evidence for that.

774 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:43:33pm

Umm Reason?

Which of the completely bogus bits on nonsense from the fraud Robinson would you like me to debunk? I will be very happy to present evidence (though you might have to click a link or two) and a detailed logical argument.

775 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:43:39pm

re: #763 reason0911

you know what, this is ridiculout and I'm not going to waste time proving I'm a real person. here's a link to my facebook.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Sorry, no links please.

776 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:44:03pm

re: #771 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

now now. I'm hardly a moron. Maybe a little internet ignorant, but I think you're overstating a bit.

777 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:44:50pm

re: #765 reason0911

Look, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt one last time. All the evidence supports AGW. There are hardly any credible scientists that deny it; my climate scientist friend tells me he knows of two in his entire field, of which one is a known contrarian and the other runs research projects sponsored by oil companies.

The links to the evidence get posted here every time someone comes along with the line that "the science isn't settled."

There is simply no way that people can reasonably make this claim for any prolonged period of time. In fact a lot of the people that post here have changed their opinions significantly towards an acceptance that AGW is real over the past few years.

778 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:45:49pm

re: #777 iossarian

In the meat world, I probably know your friend :)

779 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:46:13pm

re: #776 reason0911

now now. I'm hardly a moron. Maybe a little internet ignorant, but I think you're overstating a bit.

Oh, I think you're making my case quite nicely for me on that particular count.

780 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:46:43pm

re: #766 reason0911

LOL!
Continue the educating, folks!

781 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:48:13pm

re: #778 LudwigVanQuixote

You might well do. He wrote his thesis on temperature change in ice ages past. He's been in the field for about 10-15 years now I would guess.

782 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:49:04pm

re: #780 Floral Giraffe

there is no educating occurring here. Just ad hominem attacks because I'm detracting from what I guess is the standard line.

783 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:49:33pm

re: #782 reason0911

there is no educating occurring here. Just ad hominem attacks because I'm detracting from what I guess is the standard line.

Ah, the "party line" gambit. Blood in the water.

784 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:50:21pm

re: #783 iossarian

Ah, the "party line" gambit. Blood in the water.

Now we see the violence inherent in the system.

785 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:50:48pm

re: #784 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

LOL

"I'm being repressed!"

786 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:51:43pm

re: #782 reason0911

there is no educating occurring here. Just ad hominem attacks because I'm detracting from what I guess is the standard line.


What ad hominem? You're being mocked, openly, based on your inability to recognize a valid argument. Nobody's calling you an asshole. In fact, you've been asked repeatedly for clarification. Christ, you're about as hypersensitive as Sarah Palin (THAT's ad hominem, by the way).

787 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:51:49pm

re: #782 reason0911

there is no educating occurring here. Just ad hominem attacks because I'm detracting from what I guess is the standard line.

No on the contrary. I am very happy to educate you. Which particular claim of Robinson's do you wish me to discuss?

As to science having a standard line well, it goes something like this:

It is important to note that nowhere in the definition of science is there any room for democracy, personal preference or being “even handed” with the other side. In a scientific debate, once sufficient data comes in, there is always a winner and a loser.

Amongst professional scientists, these debates generally take two forms. Firstly, “does this really mean what you think it means?” Secondly, “did you really see what you think you saw?” Once those debates are settled, you have clarity. Both debates are closed by more data and/or better analysis. Eventually, the evidence mounts and consensus is reached. An open debate implies that there is, as yet, insufficient data, incomplete analysis or both. The final word always goes to the physical evidence itself. There is no “second place.” This is as it should be. Good scientists do not say that the universe is some way that it isn’t to please anyone, ever.

788 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:51:59pm

re: #782 reason0911

there is no educating occurring here. Just ad hominem attacks because I'm detracting from what I guess is the standard line.

Should intelligent design be taught alongside evolution in science class?

789 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:52:01pm

re: #785 iossarian

LOL

"I'm being repressed!"

Bloody peasants.

790 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:52:14pm

re: #785 iossarian

LOL

"I'm being repressed!"

He is waiting to whine about the violence inherent in the system!

791 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:52:23pm

re: #781 iossarian

Does he conclude that the ice ages past were anthropomorphic? Or that the warming periods that followed were anthropomorphic? re: #783 iossarian

re: #785 iossarian

I'm not repressed, re: #786 darthstar

wait. what's the valid argument?

792 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:52:33pm

re: #789 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Bloody peasants.

They really are revolting!

793 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:52:39pm

re: #790 LudwigVanQuixote

she!

794 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:53:42pm

re: #793 reason0911

she!

Really...well that changes...nothing.

795 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:53:51pm

re: #793 reason0911

she!

Very well madame, would you care to take up my challenge or whine some more that no one is interested in educating you?

796 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:53:56pm

re: #787 LudwigVanQuixote

Having been identified as a primary threat, your posts will from this point either be ignored or deflected so as not to engage. Meanwhile, he will continue to press other posters to provide evidence, then give reasons why their's in unsuitable.

797 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:54:56pm

re: #795 LudwigVanQuixote

Very well madame, would you care to take up my challenge or whine some more that no one is interested in educating you?

Nobody ever calls me "madame"...sheesh.

798 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:54:58pm

re: #788 Gus 802

should it be taught as a fact? of course not. Should it be taught as a social theory. sure. they're going to come across people who believe it. they ought to have an understanding of it. They teach worse things in school. believe me. My kids still come home with stuff calling "honest" abe the freer of slaves. a widely dispelled mistruth.

799 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:55:33pm

re: #791 reason0911

Does he conclude that the ice ages past were anthropomorphic? Or that the warming periods that followed were anthropomorphic? re: #783 iossarian

Well, I'm glad you asked, since I specifically asked him that question the last time we met (we were out for a few beers in a small group that also included an AGW skeptic/denier friend of mine).

He said that the current warming is much, much more rapid than can be explained by the models that are used to explain past ice ages.

So the answer to your question is that no, past warming was not anthropogenic (I think that's the word you're looking for) and that yes, current warming is anthropogenic.

The only remaining open questions are around the specifics of the models used to predict just how bad the current situation is getting.

800 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:55:58pm

re: #798 reason0911

should it be taught as a fact?

Should evolution be taught as a fact?

801 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:55:59pm

re: #798 reason0911

should it be taught as a fact? of course not. Should it be taught as a social theory. sure. they're going to come across people who believe it. they ought to have an understanding of it. They teach worse things in school. believe me. My kids still come home with stuff calling "honest" abe the freer of slaves. a widely dispelled mistruth.

Hmm. OK.

I think your boat just sprung an even bigger leak.

802 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:56:01pm

re: #797 darthstar

Nobody ever calls me "madame"...sheesh.

Well, maybe if you wore that feather boa more often.

803 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:56:44pm

re: #795 LudwigVanQuixote

sure. I'm up for the "challenge" though I'm not quite sure what it is. I'm not a threat. I believe in non-aggression.

804 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:56:47pm

re: #798 reason0911

My kids still come home with stuff calling "honest" abe the freer of slaves. a widely dispelled mistruth.

Why do you hate Abraham Lincoln?

805 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:57:11pm

I guess the Emancepation Proclamation is just a theory for some people.

[rolls eyes]

806 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:57:15pm

re: #796 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Having been identified as a primary threat, your posts will from this point either be ignored or deflected so as not to engage. Meanwhile, he will continue to press other posters to provide evidence, then give reasons why their's in unsuitable.

She is apparently a she... Alas, I am repressing her dogma that she misrepresents as free thought or her own ideas. Alas, I am happy to use all of that actual science and data to repudiate the half truths, blatant falsehoods and things taken on faith by her.

These sorts hate that.

807 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:57:44pm

re: #805 Gus 802

I guess the Emancepation Proclamation is just a theory for some people.

[rolls eyes]

I don't listen to hip hop.

808 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:58:05pm

re: #798 reason0911

should it be taught as a fact? of course not. Should it be taught as a social theory. sure. they're going to come across people who believe it. they ought to have an understanding of it. They teach worse things in school. believe me. My kids still come home with stuff calling "honest" abe the freer of slaves. a widely dispelled mistruth.


Hang on...did you just put quotes around the word honest in reference to Abraham Lincoln and question the Emancipation Proclamation?

Link to Emancipation Proclamation
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

809 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:58:07pm

re: #798 reason0911

They teach worse things in school. believe me.

Like the stuff being promoted by teh "Homersexual Agenda"!!11ty

810 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:58:34pm

re: #804 Charles

I hate him!!! lol.

Of course I don't hate him, but clearly he did not take the country to war to free slaves and there were slaves across america well after the emancipation was signed. I know my own history.

811 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:59:33pm

re: #804 Charles

Why do you hate Abraham Lincoln?

Isn't always fascinating how these people free assosciate their grievances. When one point gets hammered down or debunked, they move on to yet another gripe as if the first discussion never happened.

I really love how they talk about how they whine reason and free inquiry when reason is the last thing they are interested in.

812 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:00:10pm

re: #810 reason0911

I know my own history.

Freudian slip?

813 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:00:14pm

re: #806 LudwigVanQuixote

She is apparently a she... Alas, I am repressing her dogma that she misrepresents as free thought or her own ideas. Alas, I am happy to use all of that actual science and data to repudiate the half truths, blatant falsehoods and things taken on faith by her.

These sorts hate that.

I notice she went with the deflect choice. A bold move. I was expecting at least 3 or 4 posts before responding to you on a completely different post.

814 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:00:43pm

re: #806 LudwigVanQuixote

I haven't taken anything on faith. Please provide the science...from both sides. I'd like to make a comparison and since you've already done that you can help and it'll be a challenge for me which I'm up to...sifting through all that info and trying to interpret it. I'm down.

815 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:01:09pm

re: #810 reason0911

I hate him!!! lol.

Of course I don't hate him, but clearly he did not take the country to war to free slaves and there were slaves across america well after the emancipation was signed. I know my own history.

So that minor slavery issue was just an excuse for "honest" Abe to do ... something else? What, exactly? Please be as detailed as possible.

816 Randall Gross  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:01:13pm

So it registered to talk about a climate change, but picked the handle "reason0911" now I wonder what that's about?

817 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:01:14pm

re: #810 reason0911

I hate him!!! lol.

Of course I don't hate him, but clearly he did not take the country to war to free slaves and there were slaves across america well after the emancipation was signed. I know my own history.

A word of advice...this hole you're in...digging isn't going to get you out of it.

818 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:01:14pm

re: #807 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

you must be a racist then. Who doesn't listen to Lil' Wayne. lol

819 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:01:20pm

re: #798 reason0911

Oh, dear me.

820 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:01:34pm

re: #814 reason0911

I haven't taken anything on faith. Please provide the science...from both sides. I'd like to make a comparison and since you've already done that you can help and it'll be a challenge for me which I'm up to...sifting through all that info and trying to interpret it. I'm down.

Step 1

821 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:01:37pm

re: #817 darthstar

non-sequitur.

822 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:02:23pm

re: #818 reason0911

you must be a racist then. Who doesn't listen to Lil' Wayne. lol

/raises hand

823 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:02:59pm

re: #791 reason0911

Does he conclude that the ice ages past were anthropomorphic? Or that the warming periods that followed were anthropomorphic? re: #783 iossarian

re: #785 iossarian

I'm not repressed, re: #786 darthstar

wait. what's the valid argument?

Anthropogenic.

824 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:03:28pm

re: #799 iossarian

Well, I'm glad you asked, since I specifically asked him that question the last time we met (we were out for a few beers in a small group that also included an AGW skeptic/denier friend of mine).

He said that the current warming is much, much more rapid than can be explained by the models that are used to explain past ice ages.

So the answer to your question is that no, past warming was not anthropogenic (I think that's the word you're looking for) and that yes, current warming is anthropogenic.

The only remaining open questions are around the specifics of the models used to predict just how bad the current situation is getting.

Just to add to that, heating up a planet is hard to do. Planets are big and have a lot of thermal inertia.

There are only so many mechanisms that can pull it off. Orbital variations and volcanic activity are two of the biggest.

Right now, as per orbital variations, we should be cooling (yet we are warming at an alarming rate) and there has been no dramatic volcanic activity of the sort, that could do this, in the past 200 years.

Since it is well established that CO2 is a GHG, and it is easy to directly measure our output of it and concentrations of it in the present atmosphere, we know we are doing it. We are the only viable cause left.

825 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:03:58pm

re: #821 reason0911

non-sequitur.

No...not really. Let me guess...you think there were black soldiers voluntarily fighting for the South as well during the Civil War. Your visit, while it might be short lived, has certainly been entertaining.

826 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:03:59pm

re: #816 Thanos
re: #816 Thanos

registered to talk say that dismissing re: #822 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

/raises hand too.

827 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:04:08pm

re: #814 reason0911

There are not "two sides" in science. There are just scientists. Sometimes they disagree, but that doesn't put them on "opposite sides".

This is a fundamental misconception about science that is exploited by people who seek to ignore its conclusions.

828 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:05:40pm

re: #824 LudwigVanQuixote

OK, Ludwig, now we know what ONE SIDE says, what about the OTHER SIDE?

Eh?

EH???

o_O

829 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:05:41pm

As fun as this is, I'm off

830 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:06:43pm

re: #828 iossarian

OK, Ludwig, now we know what ONE SIDE says, what about the OTHER SIDE?

Eh?

EH???

o_O

Ra's chariot is pulling the sun closer to earth and he will only stop once the proper sacrifices have been offer to the Nile.

831 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:06:46pm

re: #825 darthstar

I don't know about that. I've heard it said, but for my part, I'm black and I know for certain that slavery persisted after the emancipation and lincoln said many times that while he opposed slavery and thought Africans should be sent back to Africa or other places, he said that he would not oppose slavery politically if it would keep the country together. The war was about a secession and tariffs and not slavery.

832 Randall Gross  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:07:09pm

re: #826 reason0911

Registered to talk gibberish?

833 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:07:26pm

re: #814 reason0911

I haven't taken anything on faith. Please provide the science...from both sides. I'd like to make a comparison and since you've already done that you can help and it'll be a challenge for me which I'm up to...sifting through all that info and trying to interpret it. I'm down.

On which of Robinson's claims?

As to Anthropogenic Global Warming, look at my 824.

As to AIDs being caused by HIV, that has already been discussed up thread.

I wrote a post even further up thread about his crazy views on hormesis.

As to both sides, in science, there are no two sides ever. There is no second place. Either the data, evidence and mathematics supports you or it does not. The data support AGW, HIV as the cause of AIDS and the fact that hormesis is misapplied in the case of radiation.

834 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:08:12pm

re: #833 LudwigVanQuixote

On which of Robinson's claims?

As to Anthropogenic Global Warming, look at my 824.

As to AIDs being caused by HIV, that has already been discussed up thread.

I wrote a post even further up thread about his crazy views on hormesis.

As to both sides, in science, there are no two sides ever. There is no second place. Either the data, evidence and mathematics supports you or it does not. The data support AGW, HIV as the cause of AIDS and the fact that hormesis is misapplied in the case of radiation.

Let it rain toxic waste!
/Art Robinson

835 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:09:46pm

re: #833 LudwigVanQuixote

HIV wasn't discussed and the point I made about testing was completely ignored. I'll check out the link in 824 now.

836 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:09:54pm

Yes. Ignore history. Ignore the Emancipation Proclamation and even the 13th Amendment.

While the Senate did pass the amendment on April 8, 1864, by a vote of 38 to 6, the House declined to do so. After it was reintroduced by Representative James Mitchell Ashley, President Lincoln took an active role to ensure its passage through the House by ensuring the amendment was added to the Republican Party platform for the upcoming Presidential elections. His efforts came to fruition when the House passed the bill on January 21, 1865, by a vote of 119 to 56. The Thirteenth Amendment's archival copy bears an apparent Presidential signature, under the usual ones of the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate, after the words "Approved February 1, 1865".

The Thirteenth Amendment completed the abolition of slavery, which had begun with the Emancipation Proclamation issued by President Abraham Lincoln in 1863.

Shortly after the amendment's adoption, selective enforcement of certain laws, such as laws against vagrancy, allowed blacks to continue to be subjected to involuntary servitude in some cases.

The Thirteenth Amendment was followed by the Fourteenth Amendment (civil rights in the states), in 1868, and the Fifteenth Amendment (which bans racial voting restrictions), in 1870.

All within a year and weeks of Lincoln's assassination on April 15, 1865.

837 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:12:11pm

Damn.
I never knew anyone could possibly take Robinson seriously.
:/

838 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:12:36pm

Ok. Ire: #833 LudwigVanQuixote

Ok. I'm going to copy and paste 824 to word and research it. I'll let you know what I come up with. give me some time. I'm not likely to come back here, but if you friend me on facebook at the link provided I'll be certain to get back to you. Hopefully without any animosity. I don't see any reason for it.

839 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:13:34pm

Ah, the victim card.
Predictable.

840 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:14:27pm

re: #831 reason0911

I don't know about that. I've heard it said, but for my part, I'm black and I know for certain that slavery persisted after the emancipation and lincoln said many times that while he opposed slavery and thought Africans should be sent back to Africa or other places, he said that he would not oppose slavery politically if it would keep the country together. The war was about a secession and tariffs and not slavery.

Well, it's not like it was sent out by email...it took weeks for information to travel across the country back then...longer still in Texas.

All wars are, at some level, about economics. I'll give you that. But the session was over the expansion of slavery into northern states, which Lincoln was against (i.e. he was against expanded slavery).

From wikipedia:

In the presidential election of 1860, the Republican Party, led by Abraham Lincoln, had campaigned against the expansion of slavery beyond the states in which it already existed. In response to the Republican victory in that election, seven states declared their secession from the Union before Lincoln took office on March 4, 1861. Both the outgoing administration of President James Buchanan and Lincoln's incoming administration rejected the legality of secession, considering it rebellion. Several other slave states rejected calls for secession at this point.

Hostilities began on April 12, 1861, when Confederate forces attacked a U.S. military installation at Fort Sumter in South Carolina. Lincoln responded by calling for a volunteer army from each state to recapture federal property. This led to declarations of secession by four more slave states. Both sides raised armies as the Union assumed control of the border states early in the war and established a naval blockade. In September 1862, Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation made ending slavery in the South a war goal,[1] and dissuaded the British from intervening.[2]

The South started it. Lincoln said, "Fine, fuckers. Game on." and that led to the end of slavery. So yes, he did free the slaves. It's okay to let your kids learn that in school.

841 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:15:31pm

re: #838 reason0911

Ok. I

Ok. I'm going to copy and paste 824 to word and research it. I'll let you know what I come up with. give me some time. I'm not likely to come back here, but if you friend me on facebook at the link provided I'll be certain to get back to you. Hopefully without any animosity. I don't see any reason for it.

Your facebook link was actually a link to Ludwig's pre-Science discussion...you never did post a facebook link. Just saying.

842 Randall Gross  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:15:41pm

Science Denialism, Historical Revisionism -- a single Ron PAUL! would win it the trifecta.

843 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:16:50pm

re: #840 darthstar

The emancipation freed only those slaves in territories not under union control.

844 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:17:11pm

re: #842 Thanos

see 843. this is a fact

845 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:17:32pm

re: #838 reason0911

Ok. I

Ok. I'm going to copy and paste 824 to word and research it. I'll let you know what I come up with. give me some time. I'm not likely to come back here, but if you friend me on facebook at the link provided I'll be certain to get back to you. Hopefully without any animosity. I don't see any reason for it.

I don't bear you any ill will. If you are honestly going to research it, please do the following.

Understand what a Milankovitch cycle is, in terms of orbital forcing. If you get those, then you get the main point about how we discredit orbital variation and how we have tied them to past warm and cool periods in the Earth's history.

As to volcanic activity, please use a respected source for your data. The various US geological groups are very good at giving data on the web. Do not use some opinion web site. Get the real thing and accept no substitute.

Also, you can check out NASA solar emission measurements to find that the sun isn't abnormally hot either.

846 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:17:55pm

text from the emancipation proclamation:

"That on the 1st day of January, A.D. 1863, all persons held as
slaves within any State or designated part of a State the people
whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States shall
be then, thenceforward, and forever free; and the executive
government of the United States, including the military and naval
authority thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of such
persons and will do no act or acts to repress such persons, or any
of them, in any efforts they may make for their actual freedom.

847 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:19:28pm

re: #846 reason0911

text from the emancipation proclamation:

"That on the 1st day of January, A.D. 1863, all persons held as
slaves within any State or designated part of a State the people
whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States shall
be then, thenceforward, and forever free; and the executive
government of the United States, including the military and naval
authority thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of such
persons and will do no act or acts to repress such persons, or any
of them, in any efforts they may make for their actual freedom.

Well, given that slavery was already prohibited in the other states not rebelling, that would seem to be pretty inclusive.

848 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:20:25pm

re: #844 reason0911

You're providing a viewpoint we don't normally see around here, for which I thank you. Where do you stand on the Darwin issue?

849 Randall Gross  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:20:49pm

re: #847 darthstar

Shhh... you might confuse him, don't mention the 13th or 14th amendment either...

850 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:21:01pm

re: #845 LudwigVanQuixote

I don't bear you any ill will. If you are honestly going to research it, please do the following.

Understand what a Milankovitch cycle is, in terms of orbital forcing. If you get those, then you get the main point about how we discredit orbital variation and how we have tied them to past warm and cool periods in the Earth's history.

As to volcanic activity, please use a respected source for your data. The various US geological groups are very good at giving data on the web. Do not use some opinion web site. Get the real thing and accept no substitute.

Also, you can check out NASA solar emission measurements to find that the sun isn't abnormally hot either.

LVQ--Have you been away at some freakn' mellow ashram? Didn't you hear that yoga is dangerous to the soul? I read that on a web link.

851 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:21:03pm

re: #845 LudwigVanQuixote

:) this is what I have in mind. the sharing of ideas, but please, I have to go so either friend me or send me a message through facebook so I have a way to get in contact with you. This is an invite to you only. Everyone else has dedicated themselves to calling me names

852 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:21:31pm

re: #847 darthstar

that isn't true. please re-read the history.

853 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:22:18pm

re: #848 Charles

sounds the most viable to me.

854 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:22:33pm

re: #851 reason0911

:) this is what I have in mind. the sharing of ideas, but please, I have to go so either friend me or send me a message through facebook so I have a way to get in contact with you. This is an invite to you only. Everyone else has dedicated themselves to calling me names

I didn't call you names, and for the last time, you didn't link your facebook account, you linked Ludwig's page. Not all hyperlinks go to the same place.

855 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:23:37pm

re: #854 darthstar

I didn't call you names, and for the last time, you didn't link your facebook account, you linked Ludwig's page. Not all hyperlinks go to the same place.

Unless Al Gore frakked up when he was placing the series of tubes...

856 gehazi  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:23:53pm

re: #847 darthstar

Well, given that slavery was already prohibited in the other states not rebelling, that would seem to be pretty inclusive.

In fairness to her, the border states like Kentucky and Missouri (where slavery was legal) were specifically exempted from the Emancipation Proclamation, probably because Lincoln wisely didn't want to deal with the possibility of added revolts in those states.

Of course, all of that was taken care of by the time the 13th Ammendment rolled around, which Miss reason is steadfastly ignoring.

857 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:24:35pm

re: #851 reason0911

:) this is what I have in mind. the sharing of ideas, but please, I have to go so either friend me or send me a message through facebook so I have a way to get in contact with you. This is an invite to you only. Everyone else has dedicated themselves to calling me names

I don't call people names. , dipshit.

858 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:24:35pm

re: #856 gehazi

In fairness to her, the border states like Kentucky and Missouri (where slavery was legal) were specifically exempted from the Emancipation Proclamation, probably because Lincoln wisely didn't want to deal with the possibility of added revolts in those states.

Of course, all of that was taken care of by the time the 13th Ammendment rolled around, which Miss reason is steadfastly ignoring.

Point taken.

859 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:25:57pm

re: #850 Decatur Deb

LVQ--Have you been away at some freakn' mellow ashram? Didn't you hear that yoga is dangerous to the soul? I read that on a web link.

I reserve my vitriol for the jerks. This one is not a jerk. She is stubborn and misinformed, but has not yet been rude, obnoxious or condescending.

860 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:26:00pm

re: #854 darthstar

lol. my bad.

Your text to link...

861 theheat  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:26:33pm

re: #717 reason0911

It's Friday and someone is trying to paint LVQ as dim and thick about climate science. I dunno, but that was enough to make me laugh hysterically for the first time today.

Let's just say, you went for the big box when you should have stayed behind the curtain. Sometimes having your limitations pointed out in a public place can be painful. Especially when they use big words. And have lots of facts. And tremendous endurance.

You might take up another pastime, like ice skating uphill. Just saying.

862 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:27:16pm

re: #859 LudwigVanQuixote

I reserve my vitriol for the jerks. This one is not a jerk. She is stubborn and misinformed, but has not yet been rude, obnoxious or condescending.

Yes, the language level is improving. It's still disingenuous crap.

863 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:27:33pm

re: #859 LudwigVanQuixote

lol.

I have to run. talk to you later. My name is Angel, by the way.

864 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:28:35pm

Yep. Figures. Ron Paul.

Another neo-Confederate apologist to boot.

865 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:28:37pm

re: #860 reason0911

lol. my bad.

Your text to link...

You're with Campaign for Liberty? - the LUAP NOR link! Whoo-hoo!

866 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:28:38pm

re: #862 Decatur Deb

Yes, the language level is improving. It's still disingenuous crap.

Well yes.

867 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:28:56pm

re: #862 Decatur Deb

it's genuine.

868 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:29:48pm

re: #863 reason0911

lol.

I have to run. talk to you later. My name is Angel, by the way.

I do hope that you follow through and research this. I hope that afterwards you come back. I actually am a physicist, and I care very much about this topic. I will be very happy to discuss it with you here further. If you come with legitimate questions.

869 reason0911  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:30:03pm

re: #865 darthstar

I am with campaign for liberty. I don't like the political aspect. I see no point to it, but I do like the philosophical perspective they are promoting.

870 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:30:33pm

re: #867 reason0911

it's genuine.

You are too well schooled for that.

871 Randall Gross  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:31:08pm

re: #858 darthstar

Not really, they wanted to be confederate but couldn't and other mechanisms removed legal slavery since the Union was already there.

However, this occurred after a standing constitutional convention declared the legislature and governor void after Federal troops marched on and took over the capital. Missouri, since the Union already controlled most of it, was exempted from the Emancipation Proclamation that outlawed slavery elsewhere. However, the standing State constitutional convention repealed slavery in Missouri before Federal constitutional amendments passed. The Confederacy recognized the pro-Confederate claimants in both Kentucky and Missouri and laid claim to those states based on their authority, with representatives from both states seated in the Confederate Congress. Later versions of Confederate flags had thirteen stars, reflecting the Confederacy's claims to Kentucky and Missouri.

872 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:31:15pm

re: #867 reason0911

it's genuine.

But dangerously wrong. Do consider that if the scientific community is correct about AGW, and people like you vote against any action, or support the corrupt politicians who are opposed to action, the consequences are mass starvation, flood, drought, spread of disease and economic collapse on a global scale.

873 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:31:31pm

Perfect. A Paulian. Your last name is "Robinson." Any relation to Art up there at the top of this thread?

874 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:34:44pm

re: #873 Charles

Perfect. A Paulian. Your last name is "Robinson." Any relation to Art up there at the top of this thread?

She could have saved us all a lot of time if she'd just said that up front.

875 Randall Gross  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:35:04pm

re: #873 Charles

Remember how tons of RP supporters went out last election and set up fake facebook accts posing as blacks, jews, contruction workers, etc. to help inflate the buzz?

876 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:39:54pm

re: #875 Thanos

Remember how tons of RP supporters went out last election and set up fake facebook accts posing as blacks, jews, contruction workers, etc. to help inflate the buzz?

I clicked on a few of "her" friends...Napolitano fans, Paulians...all of them.

877 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:42:19pm

re: #875 Thanos

Remember how tons of RP supporters went out last election and set up fake facebook accts posing as blacks, jews, contruction workers, etc. to help inflate the buzz?

Oh, and one of "her" likes was hating Barack Obama...

878 Randall Gross  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:43:56pm

I had a strong suspicion immediately after reading its chosen nick.

879 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:46:04pm

re: #876 darthstar

She also likes "The World Against Israel's Actions in Palestine!".

880 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:48:53pm

re: #877 darthstar

re: #879 Obdicut

Seemed to have a real sense of mission.

881 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:49:38pm

Ron Paul... Atlas Shrugged... "The Politically Incorrect Guide to American History"...

Whatever. Maybe she's for real and will actually read up on this. Ever the optimist, I.

882 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:54:44pm

re: #125 NJDhockeyfan

The climate has been changing for millions of years and they just decided a few years ago that global warming is the fault of humans? That's why I don't believe it yet.

Deb,

Now this one is a jerk... Probably good I missed him.

883 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:57:02pm

re: #882 LudwigVanQuixote

Deb,

Now this one is a jerk... Probably good I missed him.

That was going on at 2:30 Central. NJD is a long-term Lizard, though, not a Passing Fancy.

884 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:58:47pm

re: #883 Decatur Deb

That was going on at 2:30 Central. NJD is a long-term Lizard, though, not a Passing Fancy.

Yes, and he's been a jerk for quite some time as well :)

885 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:59:17pm

Suddenly the sound of crickets is heard.

886 Vambo  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 4:21:19pm

re: #468 NJDhockeyfan

72,000 stimulus payments went to dead people

I wonder how many jobs this stimulus money has created or saved?

Brietbart.com? You're a fucking tool...

887 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 4:52:56pm

Die, dead thread die!

888 Tigger2005  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 6:25:45pm

re: #705 reason0911

this isn't the science. to come to a conclusion about what the virus is and isn't one can't rely on a timeline. That isn't helpful at all.

But honestly I think you're losing my point. I'm not arguing for or against his ideas. I'm stating the absurdity of arguing against an idea you haven't explored and don't have the background to address in any serious way.

So very stupid.

If someone states that the Earth is flat... well, I've never explored that idea. I have no background in any science related to demonstrating whether the Earth is spherical or flat or some other shape. But I know that the scientists who do have the necessary background are 100% in agreement that the Earth is a sphere. But you expect me to do the research and determine this for myself before I tell a flat earther he's full of shit, instead of taking the word of thousands upon thousands of scientists over the past several hundred years?

Suppose I take my car to ten mechanics who look under the hood and run diagnostics and they all tell me the same thing is wrong with it. So someone asks me what's wrong with my car and I say, "The thingamajig is worn down and needs replacement." If that someone is you, I guess you say, "How do you know? Are you a mechanic? Do you possess the necessary background to make that judgment?" To which I respond... "No... I took the car to several experts and I trust their judgment, so I now share their opinion as to what is wrong with my car. I don't even know what a thingamajig is, but I seriously doubt ten different mechanics are lying to me when they all tell me that's what the trouble is."

I guess after this you take me to your friend who's a mechanic, and he looks under the hood and tells me, "The problem is not your thingamajig, its the invisible gremlin chewing on your thingamabob." To which I reply, "Bullshit." I suppose you fire back with, "This man is a mechanic. You have not looked under the hood of your car and you do not possess the background to question his judgment in any serious way."

I could go on. But do you have an inkling of the point I'm trying to make here?

889 reason0911  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 8:28:55am

"So very stupid"? That's an overstatement, don't you think. I think it's completely reasonable to take into consideration all viable sources of information. The example you've set up is absurd and dishonest. Everyone here knows that I'm not saying to just consider all points of view equally independent of the source of that point of view or the quality of the point of view. I'm not even saying to consider the point of view of one seemingly crackpot scientists, like say, Copernicus. I understand that might be an unreasonable request to some. What I am saying is that it is foolhardy to dismiss intelligent and experienced scientists who present alternative perspectives. To which some will reply, "Art Robinson is and idiot!" Why is he an idiot? Because he's come to a conclusion different than the one you believe. Does anyone else see a problem with this logic? The fact is, a number of scientists, including the Chief at Nasa, Michael Griffin believe Anthropomorphic global warming is being overstated. "But he's an idiot too!" some will reply. Well here we go again. If you're going to define anyone that disagrees with you as an idiot, then no honest discussion can be had about the science, which is why this debate remains political instead of intellectual. Don't know much about science...but I know enough to listen to all the sides of any debate, and there are many sides and questions to consider concerning global warming.

So yes, "Tigger2005", I get the point that you are trying to make. I just don't believe it to be a very good one.

To Obdicut, yes I am against Israels actions in Palestine. Once again, there are many sides to this debate. From my perspective, the UN sanctioned a theocratic state, gave away land to which it hand no rightful claim and expected the people in existence there to relinquish their right to exist on the land they had cultivated. I am for a free society that recognizes the right of all individuals to exist freely and to keep and trade their property (the produce of their labor) in the absence of violence and threats. Perhaps you disagree. The burden is on you to explain to me why violence is acceptable in the case of the expropriation of land by the state. Morally, I feel opposition to the Israeli state and it's actions is the right and consistent position.

To Charles, I'm sure what you mean by Paulian is not what I actually am. I'm not a Ron Paul "follower". I believe in the non-aggression axiom. It is morally reprehensible to use violence except in self-defense or in defense of others and that violence must be used solely against the aggressors. If you accept that axiom, you must come to the conclusion that a number of things that the US government is currently engaged in is simply wrong, putting the Constitutional issues aside. My point is that Ron Paul doesn't dictate what policies I support or oppose. I don't need to google Ron Paul's position in order to know what is the right position to take. I support Ron Paul because I believe many of his beliefs to be in accordance with mine. He is consistent, principled, and not concerned with special interests groups. And if nothing else, I appreciate that he treats his audience with respect. He presents real ideas for discussion rather than sound bites and trite comments meant to evoke emotional responses rather than reasoned debate. If you doubt that watch the Republican presidential debates of 07 and see the difference. I'm not a "Bushite" who changes their entire philosophy to continue to support the Republicans or an "Obamaite" who acts in kind. If Ron Paul ever strays from philosophical consistency, he will lose my support. He knows this about his supporters and it makes him very proud.

To "darthstar", yes I do hate the policies of Obama. As for the man, I can say little except that he has no integrity. If you hated the policies of Bush, then you must hate the policies of Obama since so many of them are in accord with each other. Even Jon Stewart knows that.

890 reason0911  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 8:29:59am

Now are their any more personal attacks I need to field or would someone like to talk about the ideas I'm presenting.

891 reason0911  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 8:35:05am

and yes, reading this back I've noticed the many grammatical errors. I'm an idiot who doesn't know tense. No need to point that out in reply. Point taken.

892 reason0911  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 8:41:33am

re: #886 Vambo

Government waste is rampant. Why is this individual wrong for pointing out that yet again government promises to do the right thing and does it poorly. Remember all that money that was wasted after Katrina, and the billions of missing dollars that went into the money hole that is Iraq, and how about trillions that gets spent on keeping bases in hundreds of countries around the world where there is no discernable reason for us to be in these countries. I think he makes a good point. Government is incapable of being economically efficient. It isn't their money. They face no losses from their bad decisions, so they don't have to make the good decisions that many of us are forced to make every day.

893 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 9:16:14am

re: #892 reason0911

I repeat my question: Your last name is "Robinson." Any relation to Art up there at the top of this thread?

894 reason0911  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 9:18:44am

re: #893 Charles

he's white. I'm black...but you never know. I like to think I'm related to Jackie Robinson, but I wouldn't be too upset about sharing genes with a scientist.

895 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 9:20:12am

re: #894 reason0911

he's white. I'm black...but you never know. I like to think I'm related to Jackie Robinson, but I wouldn't be too upset about sharing genes with a scientist.

You're black, and you're a Ron Paul fan?

Wow. Are you aware of the blatantly racist newsletters he published? Do you care?

Paulians are weird.

896 reason0911  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 9:21:31am

re: #895 Charles

What did he say in them?

897 reason0911  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 9:33:24am

re: #895 Charles

Don't worry. No need to google. I know what was said in the newsletters. I just wondered if you did. First, Ron Paul didn't himself write these newsletters and in the circles I travel in, it is common belief that Lew Rockwell wrote them. He is another man I greatly respect for his perspective. Second, these comments are no different than the sorts of comments I hear from day to day from white, blacks, et al. Everyone is a collectivist thinking you can group people together based on the superficial characteristics. It would be wrong to say that all blacks behave in the way that these newsletters describe. It wouldn't be inaccurate to say that some do, and to give commentary on that basis. These comments tow the line but are in no way indicative of any racism on the part of the author. We all do have our prejudices though, and it takes time and freedom to dispel myth. If you've ever listened to Ron Paul talk, you would think it absurd to call him a racist. He's an individualist and judges each man by the content of his character; not by the color of his skin. There are hundreds, if not thousands of videos and audio recordings of Ron Paul speaking. I challenge you to find one in which he seems to be racist to any degree. I care about racism. I pay little attention to political smears.

898 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 9:39:51am

re: #897 reason0911

Right, I thought so. Typical Paulian behavior.

Apparently, it also doesn't bother you that in his self-teaching course, Arthur Robinson sells a book that compares black Africans to retarded children.

Paulians are very very weird.

899 reason0911  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 9:40:37am

but whether Ron Paul is racist is neither here nor there. It's as relevant as what type of ice cream he likes. He isn't championing racist policies. He is advocating freedom for all. Privilege for none...even if your ancestors were slaves.

900 reason0911  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 9:42:40am

re: #898 Charles

lol. that would bother me, if it is true. However, I am not a supporter or believer in his theories and/or policies, to the extent that I know what they are.

If you're going to continue to call me a Paulian you ought to define the word so we all know what you're saying.

901 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 9:43:47am

I love it. A "black" Ron Paul fan who doesn't care if he's a racist, and also admires Lew Freaking Rockwell.

There's another well-known libertarian philosopher you might find to your liking, named David Duke.

902 reason0911  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 9:48:55am

Why should I care if someone is racist unless they are using violence against me? I'm not required to interact with them and I don't care to. However, if a racist and I share a belief in some fundamental value, I have no problem allying with him to promote that value. I support anyone's right to be a racist even if I do think they are stupid idiots. I've heard of David Duke, only recently, and seen a couple videos of him speaking. I think he does believe his race to be superior but none of what I've heard him advocate is directed at using violence against blacks or any other group so I don't really concern myself with his or any one else's personal preferences.

903 iossarian  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 9:55:36am

re: #902 reason0911

Do you seriously not care that people are talking about rolling back Civil Rights legislation? That as a black person you would no longer be allowed to dine in certain restaurants, or sit in certain parts of the ballpark, or hold certain types of job?

Seems a little odd to me.

904 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:04:53am

A black Ron Paul/Lew Rockwell fan who never heard of David Duke until recently, and has no problem allying with racists.

eye roll

905 What, me worry?  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:07:26am

Ya gotta love the internet where you can be whatever you want to be.

906 reason0911  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:11:52am

re: #903 iossarian

Well, I consider it this way. If someone doesn't want to serve me food, I don't want to eat their food. I went to Minnesota last year and sat down in a restaurant. I got stares the whole time I was there. That wasn't too bad, but I definitely felt that my waiter might not be okay with me being black. lol. I couldn't eat my meal for fear that he might have spit in it or something. Maybe i was being overly sensitive or fearful. Maybe I was reading too much in to things. Personally if someone is racist, I'd like them to wear there racism on their sleeve. I like knowing who to be weary of.

Now, putting aside my feelings, a business is private property and as such the owners of any business have a right to dispense of the property in any way they like. That includes associating and disassociating with people on whatever basis they would like. A free country does not force people to associate. It creates the environment in order for that to happen naturally. Otherwise you get people like some of my friends who believe all white people are still racists and only interact with them because they are forced to by law. What kind of reconciliation can take place if we have that mindset.

I believe that the civil rights movement was a beautiful thing (not to sound like a hippie). People of all races and economic backgrounds were changing their ideas about race relations and that was a good thing. People were demanding equal application of the law and protection of rights as well as challenging morally those who held on to antiquated ideas about skin color. This was not a movement led by government, I'll remind you. It was a movement of the people. Government came along reluctantly and it took a very long time for the politicians to catch up to the populace. But as is usually the case, instead of the government rescinding it's bad laws which institutionalized racism; those laws that forced people to segregate, it instituted laws that forced people to integrate! It did not give freedom a chance as it should have and the result was a wave of flared up racist sentiments that gave more weight to the racists plight than would have been the case under a free society, for they did have some valid opposition to the civil rights act, where none existed to the civil rights movement.

907 reason0911  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:15:16am

So the point is that, some aspects of the Civil Rights Act were good and moral and others were not. Government politicians need to be needed. They always need to do something, whether that something is good or bad. Sometimes the answer is for the government to step out of the way.

908 reason0911  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:17:19am

On the internet and in the real world you should be whoever you are.

"Trust thyself: every heart vibrates to that iron string. Accept the place the divine providence has found for your the society of your contemporaries, the connection of events. Great men have always done so, and confided themselves childlike to the genius of their age, betraying their perception that the absolutely trustworthy was seated at their heart, working through their hands, predominating in all their being. And we are now men, and must accept in the highest mind the same transcendent destiny; and not minors and invalids in a protected corner, not cowards fleeing before a revolution, but guides, redeemers, and benefactors, obeying the Almighty effort, and advancing on Chaos and the Dark."

Emerson

909 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:17:42am

Oh brother.

910 reason0911  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:19:16am

re: #909 Charles

not and Emerson fan? Shocking. :)

911 reason0911  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:20:15am

"Be who you are and say what you feel. Those who matter don't mind and those who mind don't matter" Dr. Seuss.

912 iossarian  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:21:32am

This is so stupid.

Look, the reason the government passed Civil Rights legislation was precisely because a lot of people did not want to extend equal rights to black people.

Tell me this: if black people are getting lynched, is it right for the government to "get out of the way"?

913 reason0911  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:23:53am

re: #912 iossarian

Well, that's obviously not what I'm saying is it. The government's role is to protect life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness by extension. The governments role is to make sure that it does not grant privilege to one group of people over any other. It's role is to allow individuals to interact in a safe environment. It has no authority, moral or otherwise, to make people like each other or cooperate with each other.

914 What, me worry?  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:24:37am

I can go through this thread and make many comments, particularly how assbackwards your thought process is, but then you think Ron Paul is all that and a bag of chips so....

I really don't care what color you are. What I probably find most offensive is your reluctance to fight for what is morally right in the world, rather if it doesn't concern you personally, why should you worry?

Michael Schwerner, Andrew Goodman and James Chaney, three young men from NY came to Mississippi for one reason. To help Blacks get the vote. Michael and Andrew were Jews. James was Black. What did they care about people they didn't know? You know how much they cared? They were hung for it, lynched by an angry mob.

How that cannot stir or inspire someone only can mean you have no heart.

915 reason0911  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:25:13am

The government should no more force you to share your property with people you don't like than it should force you to date people you don't like.

916 iossarian  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:28:36am

re: #913 reason0911

Maybe you really do believe this. I just think you're hopelessly naive if you think that, in the absence of legislation and government oversight, people won't exploit each other on the basis of race. I mean, take a look at history. People didn't magically just start admitting black kids to white schools in Alabama.

re: #915 reason0911

The government should no more force you to share your property with people you don't like than it should force you to date people you don't like.

Here we go with the "private property" bit. Have you ever actually read John Locke? Or any other "private property" theorists?

917 What, me worry?  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:28:48am

re: #913 reason0911

Well, that's obviously not what I'm saying is it. The government's role is to protect life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness by extension. The governments role is to make sure that it does not grant privilege to one group of people over any other. It's role is to allow individuals to interact in a safe environment. It has no authority, moral or otherwise, to make people like each other or cooperate with each other.

You don't seem to understand that it is flesh and blood, quite literally, that rests on the altar before the law. You have to fight for what you think is right or it doesn't happen and you have to continue that fight to keep it right or you most likely will lose it. Hopefully, in our society today, it will be less bloody.

918 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:28:54am

re: #915 reason0911

You're arguing against the entirety of civil society, basically.

919 reason0911  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:29:11am

It should however force it's institutions to treat all people equally since it taxes them equally (or at least if it was fairer it would). Since all individuals are forced to pay taxes, each individual in relation to the state should have the same freedoms and protections. That is wholly different from a private organization which only collects money from it's voluntary members and thus has a right to exclude or include anyone on the basis of it's subjective requirements. For instance, if i open a salon and tout it as a black owned, and operated salon, I ought to be able to exclude Asians from employment. I also think I have a right to deny service to a nazi or ex-slave owner, or a dude without a shirt.

920 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:29:34am

re: #916 iossarian

Here we go with the "private property" bit. Have you ever actually read John Locke? Or any other "private property" theorists?

Probably too busy catching up on those David Duke videos.

921 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:30:20am

re: #918 Obdicut

You're arguing against the entirety of civil society, basically.

At the risk of repeating myself, Paulians are really, really weird.

922 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:30:55am

re: #919 reason0911

Do you have anything to support your argument other than assertion?

923 What, me worry?  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:33:41am

re: #919 reason0911

It should however force it's institutions to treat all people equally since it taxes them equally (or at least if it was fairer it would). Since all individuals are forced to pay taxes, each individual in relation to the state should have the same freedoms and protections. That is wholly different from a private organization which only collects money from it's voluntary members and thus has a right to exclude or include anyone on the basis of it's subjective requirements. For instance, if i open a salon and tout it as a black owned, and operated salon, I ought to be able to exclude Asians from employment. I also think I have a right to deny service to a nazi or ex-slave owner, or a dude without a shirt.

I get the sense that you see yourself an enlightened individual, but I mostly see you as despicable and I hope and pray you are not indicative of today's young people coming up.

I think I'll go call my nieces. Later folks.

924 reason0911  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:35:19am

re: #916 iossarian

I'm not naive. I'm looking at the actual history that led to the civil rights legislation. Was it the government who finally said to the people "hey, segregation is bad. you should stop doing that" or was it the other way around. To say that attitudes weren't changing; that the trend wasn't toward desegregation is to completely ignore what actually took place. Would it have been an overnight thing? Of course not. The civil rights movement wasn't an overnight phenomenon. It would have taken a sustained movement to make racism economically inviable. That was occurring. It's called the boycott. I'm saying violence shouldn't be used against non-violent actors even if you think your end is desired.

I've read some locke and do believe in his theory of property rights as I understand it; that is, that property rights come from the mixing of ones labor with the soil, so to speak.

925 reason0911  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:36:56am

re: #922 Obdicut

great question. which assertions do you mean?

926 reason0911  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:38:12am

re: #923 marjoriemoon

despicable. why? I'm not advocating violence. I'm not advocating selfishness. I'm only advocating freedom. You can disagree with me without hating me you know. Hatred always leads to violence and many of us are trying to avoid that as the route to real change.

927 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:38:40am

re: #925 reason0911

great question. which assertions do you mean?

Your assertion you have the right to have racist hiring policies.

928 reason0911  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:40:09am

I don't know if I think I'm enlightened. I don't know what you mean by that. I just think this is the way to exist with other people. It's the same sort of stuff we all teach our kids. Don't hit others. If someone doesn't like you, stay away from them. Lead by example. Don't be a follower. Do the right thing. Enlightened thinking? probably not. Self-evident? At least to me.

929 jamesfirecat  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:42:30am

re: #906 reason0911

Well, I consider it this way. If someone doesn't want to serve me food, I don't want to eat their food. I went to Minnesota last year and sat down in a restaurant. I got stares the whole time I was there. That wasn't too bad, but I definitely felt that my waiter might not be okay with me being black. lol. I couldn't eat my meal for fear that he might have spit in it or something. Maybe i was being overly sensitive or fearful. Maybe I was reading too much in to things. Personally if someone is racist, I'd like them to wear there racism on their sleeve. I like knowing who to be weary of.

Now, putting aside my feelings, a business is private property and as such the owners of any business have a right to dispense of the property in any way they like. That includes associating and disassociating with people on whatever basis they would like. A free country does not force people to associate. It creates the environment in order for that to happen naturally. Otherwise you get people like some of my friends who believe all white people are still racists and only interact with them because they are forced to by law. What kind of reconciliation can take place if we have that mindset.

I believe that the civil rights movement was a beautiful thing (not to sound like a hippie). People of all races and economic backgrounds were changing their ideas about race relations and that was a good thing. People were demanding equal application of the law and protection of rights as well as challenging morally those who held on to antiquated ideas about skin color. This was not a movement led by government, I'll remind you. It was a movement of the people. Government came along reluctantly and it took a very long time for the politicians to catch up to the populace. But as is usually the case, instead of the government rescinding it's bad laws which institutionalized racism; those laws that forced people to segregate, it instituted laws that forced people to integrate! It did not give freedom a chance as it should have and the result was a wave of flared up racist sentiments that gave more weight to the racists plight than would have been the case under a free society, for they did have some valid opposition to the civil rights act, where none existed to the civil rights movement.

////The Invisible Hand of the market can cure discrimination!

930 iossarian  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:45:21am

re: #924 reason0911

You say it would have taken a sustained movement to make racism economically inviable. The problem is, racism is inherently "economically viable" for the majority: if you have a subservient minority population you can exploit them for cheap labor.

This is why the so-called free market is not (and never has been) a driver for social equality.

931 reason0911  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:46:14am

re: #927 Obdicut

The capital I use to create my business is mine. It is mine because I have brought it into existence through the use of my body. My body is mine, therefore the produce of my body is mine as well. The apple off the tree example is a good one. If I pick an apple from a tree in from land that is unowned, whose apple is it? Reasonable people will reply that this apple is mine. No one else has laid claim to it and I have used my body to remove it from the tree. I have mixed my labor with this thing from nature so that it may now be consumed. No one else has a right to this thing which my body has altered from it's natural state. Hopefully you agree up to this point. If it is my apple, then I have a right to command this apple as I have a right to command my body. The same applies for my business. I could choose to hoard my money and not open the business. You would be fine with this, but if I say I want to use my wealth in a way you don't agree, you claim to have some right in the decision making process. From where is your right to make decisions about my property derived?

932 jamesfirecat  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:47:59am

re: #919 reason0911

It should however force it's institutions to treat all people equally since it taxes them equally (or at least if it was fairer it would). Since all individuals are forced to pay taxes, each individual in relation to the state should have the same freedoms and protections. That is wholly different from a private organization which only collects money from it's voluntary members and thus has a right to exclude or include anyone on the basis of it's subjective requirements. For instance, if i open a salon and tout it as a black owned, and operated salon, I ought to be able to exclude Asians from employment. I also think I have a right to deny service to a nazi or ex-slave owner, or a dude without a shirt.

So you want a flat tax? Would that be more fair?

Yeah taxing Bill Gates as much as me the kid not even a year out of college working in a start up for sweat equity and the covering of travel expenses.

"You keep using that word, I don' think it means what you think it means."

933 reason0911  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:48:50am

re: #929 jamesfirecat

If by invisible hand you mean protesting and boycotting, then yes it can. Businesses meet the demands of the consumers and most businesses want to have as many consumers as possible. Perhaps some racists would think otherwise but he would be forced to compete in pricing and for resources with other businesses that did not share his handicap. Eventually he would fail or be forced to change his position. This is the general case. A racist here or there could survive I'm sure, but this is certainly no reason to use violence against the entire populace.

934 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:50:50am

re: #931 reason0911

It is mine because I have brought it into existence through the use of my body.

This is not true, except in the rarest of cases. In cases where it is true-- where you have, for example, dug up a diamond, your ownership of that diamond is dependent on having a civil society that recognizes the concept of ownership and protects it through laws.

My body is mine, therefore the produce of my body is mine as well.

This is demonstrably false. If you work at a factory, you do not own what you produce. You produce it in concert with the owner of capital. Likewise, in civil society, you produce what you do in concert with that society, with the laws, system of education, systems of redress, and infrastructure.

If I pick an apple from a tree in from land that is unowned, whose apple is it?

There is no unowned land-- but even here, you disprove your own argument.

935 Obdicut  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:51:13am

re: #933 reason0911

Why are you ignoring historical truth to make this argument?

936 jamesfirecat  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:51:15am

re: #931 reason0911

The capital I use to create my business is mine. It is mine because I have brought it into existence through the use of my body. My body is mine, therefore the produce of my body is mine as well. The apple off the tree example is a good one. If I pick an apple from a tree in from land that is unowned, whose apple is it? Reasonable people will reply that this apple is mine. No one else has laid claim to it and I have used my body to remove it from the tree. I have mixed my labor with this thing from nature so that it may now be consumed. No one else has a right to this thing which my body has altered from it's natural state. Hopefully you agree up to this point. If it is my apple, then I have a right to command this apple as I have a right to command my body. The same applies for my business. I could choose to hoard my money and not open the business. You would be fine with this, but if I say I want to use my wealth in a way you don't agree, you claim to have some right in the decision making process. From where is your right to make decisions about my property derived?

"Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?"

937 iossarian  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:51:24am

re: #931 reason0911

Locke's theory of private property is very nice, but he justifies it ethically by the claim that we all have the opportunity to make it on our own (in his writings, he says that anyone can move to underpopulated North America and start a farm, which in 17th-century England may have been true).

When you try to apply his argument in today's USA, you quickly run into the problem that there are lots of people who don't have that opportunity, or for whom it is significantly restricted. And, tellingly, the only extent to which they do have it is via government intervention (most obviously through the public school system).

But in magical free-market private property land, all is well (except for the slaves, but they're not really "people" like me and, to a slightly lesser extent, you).

938 jamesfirecat  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:57:01am

re: #933 reason0911

If by invisible hand you mean protesting and boycotting, then yes it can. Businesses meet the demands of the consumers and most businesses want to have as many consumers as possible. Perhaps some racists would think otherwise but he would be forced to compete in pricing and for resources with other businesses that did not share his handicap. Eventually he would fail or be forced to change his position. This is the general case. A racist here or there could survive I'm sure, but this is certainly no reason to use violence against the entire populace.

You just equated forcing people to integrate with using violence....


Right.....

939 garhighway  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 10:58:28am