Jeffrey Goldberg: Reuel Gerecht on Pamela Geller’s Foul Anti-Muslim Ideology

Religion • Views: 4,896

Jeffrey Goldberg has an interesting post featuring Reuel Marc Gerecht, former CIA operative and expert on militant Islam. Goldberg asked Gerecht for his reaction to some of the outrageously ignorant and bigoted comments from Pamela Geller quoted in the New York Times, and Gerecht’s response is a must-read: Reuel Gerecht on Pamela Geller’s Foul Anti-Muslim Ideology.

I have to plead an embarrassing ignorance about Pamela Geller.� I was well aware of the Internet-driven opposition to Feisal Abd ar-Rauf’s Ground Zero/Park 51 mosque, but had not entered her name into my memory.� I don’t read blogs much—except Goldblog and those that publish me—and I was more than a little taken back when Jeffrey sent me a note containing comments by Ms. Geller about English translations of the Qur’an.� The intersection of politics, public policy, and scholarship isn’t always pretty, and we are most often fortunate that scholars don’t write our domestic and foreign policies.�� However, there is a certain deference that activists must give to scholars when they tread on what is clearly academic terrain.� A good cause—and Ms. Geller’s general concern about the harm that violent Islamic militants can do is an estimable fight—is no excuse for agitprop and what amounts to a slur against some of the greatest scholars of the twentieth century.� According to the New York Times, Ms. Geller has stated:

Now I also believe that a true translation, an accurate translation of the Koran, is really not available in English, according to many of the Islamic scholars that I’ve spoken to.� That’s deeply troubling.� And I don’t think that many westernized Muslims know when they pray five times a day that they’re cursing Christians and Jews five times a day.� I don’t think they know that.

Let’s take the Qur’an first, Muslim prayers second.� Concerning the translation of the Muslim Holy Book, who might these Islamic scholars be?� Since Ms. Geller is without Arabic, it’s impossible for her to compare the original to a translation.� She must depend upon others, who, if I follow Ms. Geller, are involved in a conspiracy to hide the ugly truth about Islam.� If the translations were more “accurate,” we would all see what’s apparent to Ms. Geller, who ascertained the truth despite the blinding scholarly conspiracy.� One has to ask whether Ms. Geller has perused the translation masterpiece by Cambridge’s late great A.J. Arberry or my personal favorite, the awesomely erudite, more literal translation and commentary by Edinburgh’s late great Richard Bell?� Both gentlemen are flag-waving members of Edward Said’s most detested species—Orientalists.� Now if you look at these translations—especially if you look at Bell’s, which is blessed with exhaustive notes in a somewhat complicated formatting—even the uninitiated can get an idea that Muhammad had trouble with Christians and especially Jews during his life.� If you look at the Qur’anic commentary by Edinburgh’s late great William Montgomery Watt (another Orientalist), who was always attentive to Muslim sensibilities in his writings, you can also fine in clear English Muhammad’s unpleasant ruminations about Christians and Jews.� �

Now what all of this means to contemporary Islamic militancy is a very long discussion, for which I suspect that Ms. Geller doesn’t have abundant patience.� Islam has been having awful problems absorbing modernity; its travails so far—let us underscore—have been less bloody than what we witnessed as Christianity modernized.� Any non-Muslim certainly has the right to study, question, and criticize the Islamic faith, as Muslims have the (well-exercised) right to let loose against what they see as the imperfections of Christianity, Judaism, and humanist secularism (the West’s dominant faith).�� As Iran’s robust, astonishing intellectual wars over the last twenty years have shown, it’s good for Muslims and non-Muslims not to pull their punches.� Muslims should never be treated as children, which is a debilitating disposition found widely now on the American Left.� (President Obama has not helped.)�� But the great Islamic scholars of the past did not lie.� There is no conspiracy.� We are blessed with illuminating English translations of the Muslim Holy Book.� Ms. Geller might consider blogging less, and reading more.

Read the whole thing…

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47 comments
1 mr.fusion  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 11:35:30am

"Ms. Geller might consider blogging less, and reading more."

Post less read more.....probably my favorite message board smack down

Good read.

2 Political Atheist  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 11:40:16am

Best Geller post since I registered.

3 researchok  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 11:41:33am

Excellent article.

Geller depends on and works hard to 'dumb down' her readership so as to make her drivel palatable. With no real credentials she appeals to a uneducated emotionally charged base.

Robert Spenser uses his non related academic qualifications to do the same in an attempt to insert himself as a qualified 'expert'. He's like a podiatrist claiming expertise as a neurosurgeon.

In what is an ironic twist, they are contributing to the Arabization of American politics. They rely an half truths, outright deceit and hate to justify their own bigotry.

Gerecht's article makes that crystal clear.

4 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 11:42:37am

Repeated for emphasis:

Ms. Geller might consider blogging less, and reading more.

I've spent more than 15 years writing and researching the ME conflict and studying Islam, Judaism, the Arab-Israeli conflict, and never found to have a problem finding an English translation of the Koran or experts on which to rely upon (I can read and understand Hebrew, but don't have a similar expertise in Arabic or Farsi). That goes for the hadiths as well.

I know that there are some experts who I find more instructive than others - Lewis over Said or Esposito but even those experts provide insight into the thinking and philosophical and theological discussions that are at the heart of the conflict.

In fact, one of my instructors who taught about Islam was a Maronite Christian from Lebanon. You can be sure that he had a unique take on what he saw happening to his homeland and the role religion - and Islam in particular - played.

5 gehazi  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 11:43:36am

Possibly the best line in the article comes at the end, past the quoted material.

It's a very good and essential cause to fight jihadism, but such a struggle should not incline us to maul Islamic history or to treat Muslims as if they were merely a walking version of this surah or that legal treatise. Christians and Jews and atheists are much more than the sum of their parts. So, too, are Muslims.

6 researchok  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 11:45:01am

re: #4 lawhawk

Repeated for emphasis:

Ms. Geller might consider blogging less, and reading more.

I've spent more than 15 years writing and researching the ME conflict and studying Islam, Judaism, the Arab-Israeli conflict, and never found to have a problem finding an English translation of the Koran or experts on which to rely upon (I can read and understand Hebrew, but don't have a similar expertise in Arabic or Farsi). That goes for the hadiths as well.

I know that there are some experts who I find more instructive than others - Lewis over Said or Esposito but even those experts provide insight into the thinking and philosophical and theological discussions that are at the heart of the conflict.

In fact, one of my instructors who taught about Islam was a Maronite Christian from Lebanon. You can be sure that he had a unique take on what he saw happening to his homeland and the role religion - and Islam in particular - played.

The oldie but goodie (and imperfect) Pickthall translation served to open up Islam to the west.

The Quran has been demystified for a long time- for anyone who actually cared and make the effort.

7 wrenchwench  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 11:45:57am

I'd like to see Reuel Marc Gerecht comment on the one Geller turns to as a "scholar", Robert Spencer.

8 Political Atheist  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 11:46:02am

re: #6 researchok

I have a Scofield Bible. I think I'll buy something like that for the Quran.

9 Obdicut  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 11:49:30am

This bit will drive Geller insane:

Islam has been having awful problems absorbing modernity; its travails so far—let us underscore—have been less bloody than what we witnessed as Christianity modernized.

10 researchok  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 11:49:37am

re: #8 Rightwingconspirator

I have a Scofield Bible. I think I'll buy something like that for the Quran.

Pickthall is an older translation- somewhat heavy.

There are newer translations out there. By it's very nature, a translation of the Quran is unwieldy because of the style in which it is written as well as the somewhat jumbled time lines.

Further, these translations have to accommodate the hadith, later commentary.

11 kmg  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 11:52:35am

So from this excerpt we learn that we should be free to study and criticize the Islamic faith just like Muslims can criticize and let loose on other faiths. We learn that Muslims shouldn't be treated as children which is how the left treats them. Also, we learn that Muhammad had trouble with Christians and especially Jews. That is what I got from that snippet. What's your point?

12 researchok  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 11:54:34am

re: #11 kmg

So from this excerpt we learn that we should be free to study and criticize the Islamic faith just like Muslims can criticize and let loose on other faiths. We learn that Muslims shouldn't be treated as children which is how the left treats them. Also, we learn that Muhammad had trouble with Christians and especially Jews. That is what I got from that snippet. What's your point?

The point is that criticizing and understanding Islam cannot be reduced to a single paragraph.

Know what I mean?

13 rwdflynavy  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 11:55:28am

re: #11 kmg

Look! A Tr0ll!

14 jaunte  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 11:55:36am

re: #11 kmg
Gerecht makes this point at the end of his piece:

"It's a very good and essential cause to fight jihadism, but such a struggle should not incline us to maul Islamic history or to treat Muslims as if they were merely a walking version of this surah or that legal treatise. Christians and Jews and atheists are much more than the sum of their parts. So, too, are Muslims."
15 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 11:55:53am

re: #6 researchok

As an online resource, you can get a trifecta of translations in one at the CRCC at USC. You get Yusufali, Pickthal, and Shakir.

For example, from Sura 1:
001.001
YUSUFALI: In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
SHAKIR: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

001.002
YUSUFALI: Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
PICKTHAL: Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
SHAKIR: All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.

You can see how the translations differ and commonalities.

16 Obdicut  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 11:56:12am

re: #11 kmg


Did you also learn this?


Islam has been having awful problems absorbing modernity; its travails so far—let us underscore—have been less bloody than what we witnessed as Christianity modernized.
17 gehazi  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 11:57:00am

re: #11 kmg

So from this excerpt we learn that we should be free to study and criticize the Islamic faith just like Muslims can criticize and let loose on other faiths. We learn that Muslims shouldn't be treated as children which is how the left treats them. Also, we learn that Muhammad had trouble with Christians and especially Jews. That is what I got from that snippet. What's your point?

Geez, when you put it like that, it sure sounds silly. I mean, all we have to do is treat Islam in a reasonable and fair fashion, as we would any other religion or cultural phenomenon. Since human beings always act with the purest of motives and perfect rationality, we must already be doing this, so what was the point of this silly little article.

///

18 b_sharp  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 11:57:23am

OT: Bitch about work.

I just drove for 3.5 hours to get to a customer, from a customer who munged up his KVM switch cabling, because their finance network was randomly failing on most systems and completely on one, only to find some twit had stuck a network cable into the uplink's shared port on a Linksys switch. I even had the port blocked off so they wouldn't use it, but the DF just ripped the tape off and screwed up the network because the DF wanted to get on the Internet.

I'm going to charge the place double my normal, just so they get the message.

19 b_sharp  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 11:58:37am

re: #11 kmg

So from this excerpt we learn that we should be free to study and criticize the Islamic faith just like Muslims can criticize and let loose on other faiths. We learn that Muslims shouldn't be treated as children which is how the left treats them. Also, we learn that Muhammad had trouble with Christians and especially Jews. That is what I got from that snippet. What's your point?

We learned that Geller lied. Again.

20 researchok  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 11:59:06am

re: #15 lawhawk

As an online resource, you can get a trifecta of translations in one at the CRCC at USC. You get Yusufali, Pickthal, and Shakir.

For example, from Sura 1:
001.001
YUSUFALI: In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
SHAKIR: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

001.002
YUSUFALI: Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
PICKTHAL: Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
SHAKIR: All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.

You can see how the translations differ and commonalities.

Sure- Yusufali was a Asian, Pickthall was a Brit, etc.

There were bound to be differences predicated on their own cultural understandings.

21 gehazi  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 11:59:12am

re: #15 lawhawk

I'm personally quite fond of Yusuf Ali's: it's strongly poetic and I suspect could reasonably be compared to the Authorized Version of the Bible.

22 Nick Schroeder  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 11:59:51am

Not quite sure how atheists got lumped in there, but a good read nonetheless.

23 General Nimrod Bodfish  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 12:00:28pm

20 miners out, 13 left. Dario Segovia is out.

24 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 12:01:45pm

re: #18 b_sharp

My sympathies. Yet another reminder to me of why I am so glad to be out of IT.

25 b_sharp  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 12:01:55pm

re: #22 Nick Schroeder

Not quite sure how atheists got lumped in there, but a good read nonetheless.

I don't think he likes us.

26 gehazi  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 12:02:39pm

re: #22 Nick Schroeder

Not quite sure how atheists got lumped in there, but a good read nonetheless.

Atheists are more than, say, the latest book by Dawkins. I know some people who would treat an atheist that way.

27 bluesky  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 12:37:55pm

Poll says 10 percent of Germans want a new 'Führer'

Germans reportedly want leader to "send foreigners home"; over 58% say "religious practice for Muslims in Germany should be seriously limited."

28 filetandrelease  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 12:38:58pm

Now that was an excellent read. And some of you wonder why I come here, my beliefs and all. Where else can I find such a clear well thought out and written article in defence of Islam? (rhetorical)

Gerecht, I will have to find some more of his writtings.

29 Obdicut  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 12:41:15pm

re: #28 filetandrelease

Where else can I find such a clear well thought out and written article in defence of Islam?

The Atlantic.

Which is where it was.

30 Cineaste  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 12:45:00pm
There is no conspiracy. We are blessed with illuminating English translations of the Muslim Holy Book. Ms. Geller might consider blogging less, and reading more.

FTFH...

31 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 12:46:07pm

re: #4 lawhawk

Repeated for emphasis:

Ms. Geller might consider blogging less, and reading more.

I've spent more than 15 years writing and researching the ME conflict and studying Islam, Judaism, the Arab-Israeli conflict, and never found to have a problem finding an English translation of the Koran or experts on which to rely upon (I can read and understand Hebrew, but don't have a similar expertise in Arabic or Farsi). That goes for the hadiths as well.

I know that there are some experts who I find more instructive than others - Lewis over Said or Esposito but even those experts provide insight into the thinking and philosophical and theological discussions that are at the heart of the conflict.

In fact, one of my instructors who taught about Islam was a Maronite Christian from Lebanon. You can be sure that he had a unique take on what he saw happening to his homeland and the role religion - and Islam in particular - played.

I'm still unclear as to whether SPENCER has any Arabic. If he doesn't, that's rather scary, since he has become the primary 'interpreter' of the Koran to a certain group of loony-tunes.

None of these folks are particularly well-educated in Islam, which is a real pity, since they attract much greater attention than real scholars.

32 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 12:47:49pm

re: #6 researchok

The oldie but goodie (and imperfect) Pickthall translation served to open up Islam to the west.

The Quran has been demystified for a long time- for anyone who actually cared and make the effort.

Reminds me of people who claim you can't 'really' understand the Bible, because you 'can't read it in the original'. As though this was true of everyone. I can read Biblical Hebrew and a bissel Aramaic. I know what it says. Similarly, some people, not me, God knows, can read Greek, or Arabic. This is not rocket science.

33 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 12:48:36pm

re: #11 kmg

So from this excerpt we learn that we should be free to study and criticize the Islamic faith just like Muslims can criticize and let loose on other faiths. We learn that Muslims shouldn't be treated as children which is how the left treats them. Also, we learn that Muhammad had trouble with Christians and especially Jews. That is what I got from that snippet. What's your point?

That knowledge is better than deliberate ignorance.

34 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 12:49:41pm

re: #15 lawhawk

As an online resource, you can get a trifecta of translations in one at the CRCC at USC. You get Yusufali, Pickthal, and Shakir.

For example, from Sura 1:
001.001
YUSUFALI: In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
SHAKIR: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

001.002
YUSUFALI: Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
PICKTHAL: Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
SHAKIR: All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.

You can see how the translations differ and commonalities.

'cherisher and sustainer'. That's lovely.

I see Arabic keeps the plural that you also find sometimes in Hebrew--'olamim', 'worlds' or 'universes'.

35 Yashmak  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 12:51:20pm

re: #11 kmg

What's your point?

That Geller is misleading her audience, as was made abundantly clear in the "snippet" with this line:

"A good cause—and Ms. Geller’s general concern about the harm that violent Islamic militants can do is an estimable fight—is no excuse for agitprop and what amounts to a slur against some of the greatest scholars of the twentieth century

36 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 12:51:55pm

re: #20 researchok

Sure- Yusufali was a Asian, Pickthall was a Brit, etc.

There were bound to be differences predicated on their own cultural understandings.

And the conventions of the day, and differences of how you decide to handle specific issues of translation. The King James can drive you half crazy with the constant 'and'. 'And the Lord did X.' 'And Moses did Y'. 'And the people did freak out.'

It's an odd grammatical feature in Biblical Hebrew, and the particle they're translating makes the tense past, it doesn't mean 'and'. The translators decided to be super-careful and translate it anyhow.

37 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 12:52:37pm

re: #28 filetandrelease

Now that was an excellent read. And some of you wonder why I come here, my beliefs and all. Where else can I find such a clear well thought out and written article in defence of Islam? (rhetorical)

Gerecht, I will have to find some more of his writtings.

I have never wondered why you're here.

And agree about Gerecht. A nice clear writer.

38 Bartholomew  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 1:24:37pm

There is a tradition in Islam that Koran cannot be translated, since the genuine text is the Arabic - the word "interpretation" is therefore preferred over "translation", although it amounts to the same thing. Geller has willfully distorted this into a conspiracy theory

@Rightwingconspirator "I have a Scofield bible..."

The best Bible is the New Jerusalem Bible Study Edition. It takes a historical and critical approach, with the kind of scholarship you'd expect to find in an edition of any other ancient text.

39 filetandrelease  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 1:31:02pm

re: #29 Obdicut

The Atlantic.

Which is where it was.

Fortunately he writes for many different sights and publications and is not a polictcal hack. Thisis a good article, although not flattering to Obama. A nice angle on why the nicities towards Islam doen't work.

I will continue to search him out, probably not at the atlantic. I stopped reading sullivan a while back. To wacky for me.

Thanks for the predictable snark though.

40 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 2:17:27pm

re: #39 filetandrelease

Fortunately he writes for many different sights and publications and is not a polictcal hack. Thisis a good article, although not flattering to Obama. A nice angle on why the nicities towards Islam doen't work.

I will continue to search him out, probably not at the atlantic. I stopped reading sullivan a while back. To wacky for me.

Thanks for the predictable snark though.

LOL...

41 engineer cat  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 3:35:23pm

i was utterly shocked the first time i read the bible all the way through, and when i read exerpts from the koran. anybody who takes the trouble to actually read them will find it easy to find things to be shocked by without jazzing their audiences with conspiracy theories.

to judge by the quality of discourse on these, the most published books in history, they are also the least read

42 engineer cat  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 3:39:35pm

even if you read the bible directly in hebrew, aramaic, and greek, and the quran in arabic, a modern person is sure to miss things in the idioms and cultural allusions that would have been clear to a person who lived when they were written

43 Fortitudine  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 4:56:47pm

Ms. Geller might consider blogging less, and reading more

I'm not convinced Pamela Gellar reads at all.

44 Obdicut  Wed, Oct 13, 2010 6:24:21pm

re: #39 filetandrelease

It wasn't snark. You asked where else you could find articles like this. I pointed out the Atlantic, where the article resides.

You're very weird.

45 wheat-dogghazi  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 2:40:15am

@18 b_sharp

The switches aren't in a locked closet somewhere? When we refitted my old school a few years ago, our IT contractor insisted all the network switches be behind locked doors. It sure made my job easier once it was all done -- no worries about flakes like you just mentioned unintentionally sabotaging the entire network.

Still, I feel for you. I don't do IT anymore, and the few times I've helped my neighbors with their computer problems convinces me I made the right choice.

46 filetandrelease  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 10:45:38am

re: #40 Walter L. Newton
Oops, sorry about the down ding.

47 filetandrelease  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 10:47:24am

re: #44 Obdicut

It wasn't snark. You asked where else you could find articles like this. I pointed out the Atlantic, where the article resides.

You're very weird.

My apologies. And yes, that I admit.


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