Christine O’Donnell Wants To Teach Creationism As ‘An Equal Theory’ to Evolution

Wingnuts • Views: 6,434

Following the debate between Christine O’Donnell and Chris Coons, a lot of people are focusing on O’Donnell’s Palinesque inability to name a single Supreme Court decision with which she disagreed. (That lack of knowledge doesn’t stop her from bashing the Supreme Court’s rulings, of course.)

But I happened to be out of the room and missed it when she said something possibly more outrageous, that hasn’t gotten much notice in the media. Because as LGF reader simoom points out in this excellent Page, Christine O’Donnell also said quite explicitly (if un-grammatically) last night that she favors the teaching of creationism in public schools “as an equal theory as evolution.”

She dodged the question about whether she personally believes evolution is a myth, and ended up expressing an opinion far more radical than most Republicans will admit in public. She believes local school systems should have the constitutional right to teach Biblical creationism as every bit the equal of evolutionary science.

In a way, I feel sorry for the Discovery Institute. They spend all that effort and money trying to promote the bogus idea of an “intelligent design” creationism that looks sort of like science, to give the right wing an excuse, and here comes Christine O’Donnell, yanking us right back to the days of the Scopes Monkey Trial.

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286 comments
1 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 3:46:25pm

Creationists probably only think they're an equal theory to evolution because the one time it came down to a court case they managed to win...

2 darthstar  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 3:46:48pm

Creationism isn't theory, it's FACT!
//

Sadly, that's what she actually believes.

3 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 3:48:51pm

re: #2 darthstar

Creationism isn't theory, it's FACT!
//

Sadly, that's what she actually believes.

Grand Canyon proves Noah's Ark!

4 Sionainn  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 3:49:10pm

Arrrrrrgggggghhhhhhh!!!!!

5 calochortus  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 3:49:20pm

I think we need to teach that the earth is carried around on the back of a large turtle.//

6 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 3:49:59pm

re: #5 calochortus

It isn't?

// Do I have to?

7 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 3:52:00pm

re: #5 calochortus

I think we need to teach that the earth is carried around on the back of a large turtle.//

No you blasphemous fool, it's on the back of four elephants which themselves are on the back of an even larger turtle!

8 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 3:52:04pm

The incredible thing about O'Donnell and her handlers' incompetence, is that they could always score cheap points by identifying the Dred Scott case or Plessy v Ferguson as examples where the Supreme Court got it just plain wrong. Unless, of course, they think those decisions were correctly decided....

9 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 3:53:50pm
10 Jack Burton  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 3:55:37pm

re: #7 jamesfirecat

No you blasphemous fool, it's on the back of four elephants which themselves are on the back of an even larger turtle!

The Earth is spherical! It used to be flat until Ar-Pharazôn the Golden tried to invade The Undying Lands to seize immortality...

oh no wait that's Middle-Earth, not Earth.

/

11 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 3:58:50pm

I'm gonna have to pull out my pocket constitution here in a minute and see which part of it gives me the right to spread lies and use public schools and public funds to shove religious dogma down the throats of other peoples children, all while calling it SCIENCE!

12 calochortus  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:00:55pm

re: #7 jamesfirecat

No you blasphemous fool, it's on the back of four elephants which themselves are on the back of an even larger turtle!

I think this is the sort of theological and scientific question that can only be solved with pointless violence. Let's step out back...

13 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:01:01pm

re: #11 Slumbering Behemoth

Hmm... not seeing it right off the bat. This could take a while.

14 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:02:30pm

re: #12 calochortus

Hey! The mosque discussion is on another thread!

//

15 calochortus  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:06:53pm

re: #14 sliv_the_eli

Trial by combat shouldn't be restricted to the building code, should it?

16 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:09:28pm

re: #15 calochortus

Trial by combat shouldn't be restricted to the building code, should it?

it also works for avatars on political blogging sites...........

17 The Curmudgeon  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:09:59pm

I doubt that either party knows much about science. Evolution is probably just a talking point for most Dems, as creationism is for the Republicans.

18 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:10:55pm

re: #3 jamesfirecat

Grand Canyon proves Noah's Ark!

ample time proves bread!

19 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:11:55pm

re: #18 wozzablog

And don't forget, 2 + 2 = frog

20 Flounder  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:13:13pm

I don't' accept your premise, things taught in schools are decided at a local level, not national. If you would like to underwrite my $6k school tax bill, I'll let you opine what you think should be taught here where I live.

21 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:14:52pm

re: #15 calochortus

I thought when we speak of candidate O'Donnell, it's trial by fire.

22 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:15:40pm

re: #20 Shropshire_Slasher

Um, two points:

A) The Federal Government does underwrite schools in general.
B) You didn't make an argument, you made an assertion. Would you care to actually make an argument about why what's taught in schools should be allowed to violate the constitution?

23 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:15:50pm

re: #21 sliv_the_eli

I thought when we speak of candidate O'Donnell, it's trial by fire.

No, no, no. We just need to check whether she weighs the same as a duck. Then we can also prove that the Earth is banana-shaped.

24 Jack Burton  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:18:26pm

re: #19 sliv_the_eli

And don't forget, 2 + 2 = frog

How about this one: What is the square root of purple?

25 shutdown  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:18:44pm

I heard the O'Donnell clip on the radio today. I practically drove my car off the road I was so upset. This is such a clear issue of church and state - teach creationism in religious studies; that is the constitutional point here. Religion is not science, and my kids have a constitutional right to know that religious theory and scientific fact are not the same thing. Note to O'Donnell: nobody has a constitutional right to be misinformed.

The irony is that, were she Muslim, O'Donnell would practically be screaming for the introduction of sharia law as demanded by God and the Constitution and the Founding Imams and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

26 calochortus  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:18:55pm

re: #21 sliv_the_eli

I thought when we speak of candidate O'Donnell, it's trial by fire.

Or possibly death by a thousand facepalms.

27 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:19:37pm

re: #23 oaktree

Now that you mention it, that picture of O'Donnell looks an awful lot like Donald or Daisy...

28 Flounder  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:20:52pm

re: #22 Obdicut

I don't accept his Charles argument, period. What is taught in the local schools should be kept local, if the federal guvmint underwrites my local school, I don't want it.

29 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:21:01pm

re: #20 Shropshire_Slasher

I don't' accept your premise, things taught in schools are decided at a local level, not national. If you would like to underwrite my $6k school tax bill, I'll let you opine what you think should be taught here where I live.

Yet the Constitution is the ultimate law of the land, and it has been ruled that teaching religion in public schools as if it were science is un-constitutional.

30 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:22:56pm

re: #28 Shropshire_Slasher

I don't accept his Charles argument, period. What is taught in the local schools should be kept local, if the federal guvmint underwrites my local school, I don't want it.

So those schools in poverty striken areas should just have to do without and tell the kids who are already at a disadvantage that hey it sucks to be poor in America?

31 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:23:04pm

Nobody is authorized to teach my children religion without my permission.

Not even in science class.

32 shutdown  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:23:05pm

The political state of affairs in this country is so dire right now I sometimes just want to scream at the top of my lungs. Or, as someone here put it the other day, to grab people collectively by the lapels and shake some sense into them. Or some crazy out of them. Either is fine.

33 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:23:26pm

re: #25 imp_62

Only if she was a Muslim living in the West. In such enlightened places as Saudi Arabia she would have to keep her mouth shut.

34 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:23:49pm

re: #28 Shropshire_Slasher

I don't accept his Charles argument, period. What is taught in the local schools should be kept local, if the federal guvmint underwrites my local school, I don't want it.

Okay. Make your argument, then, for why local governments should be able to violate the constitution.

You haven't actually made that argument, so you're completely unconvincing at the moment.

Can you actually defend that position?

35 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:24:07pm

Just in case, any creationist hacks show up with the old saw about evolution violating the second law of thermodynamics, I present the following excerpt from my second thermo post as a troll hammer.

Back in the day, people used magnetic tapes and disks to store information. Little magnetic crystals would be put into either an up or down configuration. These were little magnets and by scanning them with the right electronics, the changing magnetic fields could be converted into changing voltages that were then read by a machine or converted into a signal, or broadcast on a speaker. That part doesn’t matter. What matters is that the more you used them the more they might wobble out of place. Eventually bits of data would be lost here or there, or your tape would sound more and more fuzzy. This too is a measure of entropy.

To take it further, suppose you went to copy any stream of bits, as in a 0 or a 1, and you have a really good machine to do it. There is only one configuration of those bits which is the information you want. For each bit that gets recorded, there is a chance a bit of the information being recorded wrong - as something different. Out of 10 bits, there is only one way to have whatever your 10 bit message was, but there are 1023 ways for it to be something else. If transmission were completely random, then you would have less than a one in 1000 chance of getting the right message. But it isn't completely random, any given bit is most likely to be copied correctly. However, over multiple copies, errors will and must occur eventually. Entropy becomes a measure of how easy it is to get into one of those other states.

So let’s say that you have a really good machine to copy your information and you build the mechanism so it is hard to get a bit wrong. There is still some chance that it will mess up somewhere. Eventually, a copy will have a bit wrong. Eventually, some copy of that will have two or more bits wrong. This is entropy increasing.

Here we come to the part where we nail the evolution deniers hard. DNA is nothing more than a coded string with many bits of data. We have really good cellular mechanisms for copying it from one generation to the next. But what is a mutation if not a change in the DNA? Eventually over time, all sorts of errors will creep in. If those “errors” end up being beneficial, then they get copied to the next generation that makes more babies. If not, they die off. In fact, on the level of encoded information, evolution is exactly an example of entropy increasing.

For those that wish to dig deeper, I invite you to go into Shannon’s Law.

36 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:24:17pm

re: #24 ArchangelMichael

Wait, I know this one. The answer is...............


Hold on, it's on the tip of my tongue.......


OK, got it. The square root of purple is.......Jabberwocky!!!

37 shutdown  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:25:35pm

re: #36 sliv_the_eli

Wait, I know this one. The answer is...

Hold on, it's on the tip of my tongue...

OK, got it. The square root of purple is...Jabberwocky!!!

You, sir, are a fool. The square root of purple is 11ty.

38 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:26:08pm

Great timing, Charles.
Some of of us had drifted into a conversation about evolution on an old thread...

39 Sionainn  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:27:01pm

re: #28 Shropshire_Slasher

I don't accept his Charles argument, period. What is taught in the local schools should be kept local, if the federal guvmint underwrites my local school, I don't want it.

Damn the Constitution, eh?

40 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:27:02pm

re: #37 imp_62

And here I thought I was a knave.

In any event, you are correct. I had my calculus backwards. Jabbewocky is purple squared, not the square root of purple.

41 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:27:14pm

re: #37 imp_62

sorry, but wasn't it the phonetic
eye dee ten tee?

42 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:27:37pm

re: #38 Capitalist Tool

You weren't actually talking about evolution. You were talking about a folklorish view of evolution, where it's headed somewhere, with some goal.

43 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:29:03pm

re: #28 Shropshire_Slasher

I don't accept his Charles argument, period. What is taught in the local schools should be kept local, if the federal guvmint underwrites my local school, I don't want it.

The truth, and in particular, scientific truths are not in the province of local religious nuts to officiate.

While I am not necessarily a fan of the government running all schools, it does provide the benefit of non-echo chamber sane and actually educated people maintaining some form of minimum standard of education.

It is far from perfect, but the alternative is the Texas BOE, and other sets of deluded, backwards and ignorant cretins, indoctrinating and brainwashing our children with lies, distortions and simple lunacy.

44 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:29:28pm

re: #40 sliv_the_eli

Sorry, I forgot to add that if the Slasher wants to have it taught the other way around in his or her school district, who are we to correct them?

45 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:30:37pm

re: #42 Obdicut

You weren't actually talking about evolution. You were talking about a folklorish view of evolution, where it's headed somewhere, with some goal.

that's your take- i see no end in sight. Your words aren't mine.
What was folklorish?
I did use the phrase 'a work in progress', but that's just an expression meaning we are still moving along.

46 bratwurst  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:30:42pm

Can't believe we don't already have one of our resident conservatives in this thread telling us to just relax and ignore this because TODAY'S GOP is all about the economy.

47 Flounder  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:30:58pm

re: #34 Obdicut

Why don't you ask me when I stopped beating my wife. I'm not advocating teaching religion in public schools. I'm advocating that you, Charles, etc. have no right to tell me what I want taught In my local public school. If I wanna pay extra, I'll send them to catholic school, but then my kids pick my "retirement" home too...

48 shutdown  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:31:19pm

re: #41 Capitalist Tool

sorry, but wasn't it the phonetic
eye dee ten tee?

This election is not about details. It is about who is right in the eyes of the Creator as I understand know Him (and He is a Male, make no mistake). And He has told me that I am right, and that those who follow the false god Science will be destroyed, but not by fire, as that might be mistaken for Global Warming, which we know is a hoax being perpetrated by Sekrit Muslims, Secret Illuminati, and Secret Squirrel. And the Joos, at least those who refuse to return to the Promised Land to facilitate the coming of my Saviour.

Now where is all that good gal on gal porn I was sent by my buddy Paladino?

49 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:32:23pm

re: #46 bratwurst

Can't believe we don't already have one of our resident conservatives in this thread telling us to just relax and ignore this because TODAY'S GOP is all about the economy.

:waves: I'm right here, ya know. But I won't be telling you that crap.

50 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:32:33pm

re: #47 Shropshire_Slasher

Why don't you ask me when I stopped beating my wife. I'm not advocating teaching religion in public schools. I'm advocating that you, Charles, etc. have no right to tell me what I want taught In my local public school. If I wanna pay extra, I'll send them to catholic school, but then my kids pick my "retirement" home too...

What about the issue of without federal funding, it'd be impossible for schools in poor areas to scrape together enough funding to give their students anything approaching a fair shake in life?

51 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:32:39pm

re: #3 jamesfirecat

Grand Canyon proves Noah's Ark!

Mare: #35 LudwigVanQuixote

I'll try to get some new testament physical anthropology info, but back in the miocene they used to teach us a somewhat more aggressive picture of mutation. It's compatible with your copy-error description, but looked for driving mechanisms in background and other radiation sources. Will refresh.

52 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:32:44pm

re: #48 imp_62

you're gonna have people peein' their pants from laughin' so hard

53 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:32:49pm

re: #28 Shropshire_Slasher

I don't accept his Charles argument, period. What is taught in the local schools should be kept local, if the federal guvmint underwrites my local school, I don't want it.

Suppose the schoolboard in Dearborn Michigan wants to teach sharia instead of American History. I assume you'll support that too.

54 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:32:59pm

re: #45 Capitalist Tool


I did use the phrase 'a work in progress', but that's just an expression meaning we are still moving along.

You said this:

What I suggested is that we are continuing to evolve and that there are things out there which we can now understand, but could not before and that there are things out there of which we are not even aware and do not have the tools to comprehend, but will likely reach someday.

Why do you believe that you understand that path that human evolution will take, and that that path will select for higher intelligence?

55 Political Atheist  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:33:00pm

re: #46 bratwurst

This resident conservative wants creationism reserved for Bible study, and kept in that context. What the Bible says. Sunday church school stuff. Oh, until college age religion courses and philosophy anyway.

56 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:33:04pm

re: #49 Slumbering Behemoth

:waves: I'm right here, ya know. But I won't be telling you that crap.

Maybe a Tradewind will blow in....

57 allegro  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:33:11pm

re: #47 Shropshire_Slasher

I'm advocating that you, Charles, etc. have no right to tell me what I want taught In my local public school.

Perhaps if you explained exactly what it is that has you so exercised over the matter it would be easier to understand the point you are trying to make. What exactly do you want - or not want - taught in your local public school that either is not being taught or that you want taught?

58 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:33:57pm

re: #47 Shropshire_Slasher

If I wanna pay extra, I'll send them to catholic school, but then my kids pick my "retirement" home too...

You might not want to do that, a catholic school would actually teach evolution as scientific fact.

59 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:34:04pm

re: #47 Shropshire_Slasher

Why don't you ask me when I stopped beating my wife. I'm not advocating teaching religion in public schools. I'm advocating that you, Charles, etc. have no right to tell me what I want taught In my local public school. If I wanna pay extra, I'll send them to catholic school, but then my kids pick my "retirement" home too...

And I am telling you that you have no right to determine what science should or should not be taught if you are not a scientist. I am telling you flat out that the opinions of common folks about what constitutes a good science education are as meaningless as the opinions of common folks on what constitutes a good medical, legal or engineering education.

60 Sionainn  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:34:11pm

re: #47 Shropshire_Slasher

Why don't you ask me when I stopped beating my wife. I'm not advocating teaching religion in public schools. I'm advocating that you, Charles, etc. have no right to tell me what I want taught In my local public school. If I wanna pay extra, I'll send them to catholic school, but then my kids pick my "retirement" home too...

Creationism isn't science, so it would be ridiculous to expect it to be part of the science curriculum in any public school.

61 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:34:38pm

re: #51 Decatur Deb

Ack! The first reference (#3) should not be in that comment.

62 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:34:38pm

re: #48 imp_62

This election is not about details. It is about who is right in the eyes of the Creator as I understand know Him (and He is a white, Protestant Christian Male, make no mistake). And He has told me that I am right, and that those who follow the false god Science will be destroyed, but not by fire, as that might be mistaken for Global Warming, which we know is a hoax being perpetrated by Sekrit Muslims, Secret Illuminati, and Secret Squirrel. And the Joos, at least those who refuse to return to the Promised Land to facilitate the coming of my Saviour.

Now where is all that good gal on gal porn I was sent by my buddy Paladino?

Fixed it for you.

63 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:35:30pm

re: #47 Shropshire_Slasher

. I'm advocating that you, Charles, etc. have no right to tell me what I want taught In my local public school.

Well, 'we', through the federal government, do have a right to tell you that in your local public school you can't teach in a way that is unconstitutional.

Do you disagree?

64 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:35:30pm

re: #58 Slumbering Behemoth

You might not want to do that, a catholic school would actually teach evolution as scientific fact.

Yup, even in a seminary, even in the 60s.

65 Mentis Fugit  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:35:52pm

re: #24 ArchangelMichael

How about this one: What is the square root of purple?


A deformed red beet.

66 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:36:17pm

This just in: Robert Spencer is demanding a chance to defend Pamela Geller at the Guardian.

67 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:36:37pm

re: #39 Sionainn

Damn the Constitution, eh?

"Damn the COnstitution! - full speed ahead"............

some famous quote in there somewhere

68 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:36:45pm

re: #46 bratwurst

Since someone has to do it, allow me to point out that Christine O'Donnell defeated the choice of the Delaware GOP in the primary.

69 Political Atheist  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:36:54pm

re: #56 jamesfirecat

OT
Did you read my clarification downstairs by any chance?

70 allegro  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:37:00pm

re: #66 Charles

This just in: Robert Spencer is demanding a chance to defend Pamela Geller at the Guardian.

Aw, ain't that just so fucking gallant?

71 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:37:11pm

re: #28 Shropshire_Slasher

I don't accept his Charles argument, period. What is taught in the local schools should be kept local, if the federal guvmint underwrites my local school, I don't want it.

Too bad. The Supreme Court has ruled over and over in favor of my position and against yours. Sucks to be you.

72 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:37:24pm

re: #68 sliv_the_eli

Since someone has to do it, allow me to point out that Christine O'Donnell defeated the choice of the Delaware GOP in the primary.

Um. She defeated them in the GOP primary. So, she is the choice of the Delaware GOP.

73 shutdown  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:37:27pm

re: #47 Shropshire_Slasher

Why don't you ask me when I stopped beating my wife. I'm not advocating teaching religion in public schools. I'm advocating that you, Charles, etc. have no right to tell me what I want taught In my local public school. If I wanna pay extra, I'll send them to catholic school, but then my kids pick my "retirement" home too...

You are subject to the Constitutional rule of law no matter which backward-ass school district you inhabit. If you want to home school your kids in Appalachia and then send them to school just to take the proficiency tests, that is up to you. But we all live here in this country subject to a social contract, with the understanding that certain rules apply to everybody. The alternative is chaos, which is not to be mistaken for freedom. An America in which minimum standards of educational rigour is not maintained in the science curriculum is an America that will look a lot more like some lesser developed country in 50 years than like an economic superpower.

74 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:37:35pm

re: #54 Obdicut

You said this:

Why do you believe that you understand that path that human evolution will take, and that that path will select for higher intelligence?

I have no idea where it all will end, if at all, or how we will proceed.

We can look at past as prologue, or entertain the notion of sheer randomness leading elsewhere.

75 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:38:11pm

re: #52 Capitalist Tool

As long as they don't have their hands in their pants, which, as candidate O'Donnell has informed us, would be bad.

76 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:38:22pm

re: #74 Capitalist Tool

I have no idea where it all will end, if at all, or how we will proceed.

So you're withdrawing your previous statement that we'll likely evolve to be able to understand concepts we currently can't?

That was the main folklorish part you were saying.

77 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:38:25pm

re: #69 Rightwingconspirator

OT
Did you read my clarification downstairs by any chance?

Which one?

78 calochortus  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:38:26pm

re: #47 Shropshire_Slasher

Of course we have no right to tell you what you want taught. I seriously doubt that every person in the district has the same list of things they want taught, so entirely apart from whether children should be taught the most current scientific knowledge, I can't imagine that just taking a vote will work. Government is there in part to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority.

79 researchok  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:38:28pm

re: #34 Obdicut

Okay. Make your argument, then, for why local governments should be able to violate the constitution.

You haven't actually made that argument, so you're completely unconvincing at the moment.

Can you actually defend that position?

I believe he's mixing apples and oranges.

Local school authorities do have the right to influence what is taught in schools, as long as what is taught falls within constitutional and federal guidelines.

For example, math is a requirement. That said, school districts can use any textbooks they approve. They can teach 'old math' or 'new math'.

School districts can choose from a myriad of textbooks and curricula- as long as what they use are constitutionally in bounds' and meet federal guidelines.

80 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:38:33pm

re: #51 Decatur Deb

Mare: #35 LudwigVanQuixote

I'll try to get some new testament physical anthropology info, but back in the miocene they used to teach us a somewhat more aggressive picture of mutation. It's compatible with your copy-error description, but looked for driving mechanisms in background and other radiation sources. Will refresh.

Ohhh, I said nothing about the mechanisms of how mutations can occur. In the context of the argument I made, what they are specifically, really doesn't matter.

For example, if you are only looking at copying errors, fine, but that is not everything involved.

If you look at the whole system, you have all sorts of other players. A retro virus comes along and adds some stuff to your code. It does what it does and the state where one member got infected is just another case of stuff other than what was "intended" happening.

Arguing macroscopic entropy always gets difficult and hung up on technicalities, like where you decide the boundaries of a system are.

That is why I like to stick to microscopic entropy. The concepts are the same, but much easier to keep concrete.

81 bratwurst  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:39:13pm

re: #49 Slumbering Behemoth

re: #55 Rightwingconspirator

Forgive me for saying "one of our resident conservatives" when I REALLY meant "tradewind".

82 Political Atheist  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:39:39pm

re: #77 jamesfirecat

I was snarking Roger Stone, not the body painted bare breasted woman.

83 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:39:59pm

re: #66 Charles

This just in: Robert Spencer is demanding a chance to defend Pamela Geller at the Guardian.

BWAHAAAHHAAAHHAAA!

To quote Hamlet,

"A hit! A palpable hit!"

84 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:40:16pm

re: #75 sliv_the_eli

only
til we need glasses?
/oops, too late

85 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:40:20pm

Today's outrageous outrage: FIRST LADY CAMPAIGNS INSIDE POLLING PLACE
OMG!

86 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:40:34pm

re: #81 bratwurst

Too late, I'm offended. I'm gonna cry in my beer for a few minutes, BRB.

87 calochortus  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:41:11pm

re: #66 Charles

This just in: Robert Spencer is demanding a chance to defend Pamela Geller at the Guardian.

OOOH, maybe we'll really get trial by combat, or a duel or something.//

88 Jack Burton  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:41:39pm

re: #87 calochortus

OOOH, maybe we'll really get trial by combat, or a duel or something.//

Two men enter, one man leaves!

89 shai_au  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:42:07pm

Would she support the teaching of scientific theory and/or atheism in religious education classes? All signs point to yes!

90 shutdown  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:42:20pm

re: #66 Charles

This just in: Robert Spencer is demanding a chance to defend Pamela Geller at the Guardian.

Certainly, thou shittest us?

91 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:42:22pm

re: #76 Obdicut

Oh no, I don't withdraw that at all.
That's what I believe.
Folklorish?

92 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:42:30pm

re: #82 Rightwingconspirator

I was snarking Roger Stone, not the body painted bare breasted woman.


Ahh well keep your downding there as a memory for being more careful about what you post and how certain things can be taken the wrong ways, but you can have an upding from me on this post.

93 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:42:35pm

re: #80 LudwigVanQuixote

All true, but someone with more education than brains would want to bring up the old "there hasn't been enough time" BS. Looking at the accelerated mutation drivers tamps that down a bit. Still, I'm 40 years stale on the subject.

94 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:43:01pm

re: #72 Obdicut

That is certainly one way of looking at it. Where we appear to differ is that, in my view, given the typically low voter turnout in primary elections and the abiltiy of even a small number of diehards to sway the vote, it is not necessarily accurate to state that the mere fact that she won the primary means that she is, in fact, representative of the GOP as a whole.

95 Flounder  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:43:37pm

re: #63 Obdicut
Yes I do disagree, It is something called States Rights.
Some people believe in States Rights, some do not, some change their mind when it comes to the subject matter. Funding of schools is a state responsiblity in my opinion. I used to live in a poor area with "poor" schools, that is why I moved when I had kids, and with the move came higher taxes, but a "better" school.

96 shutdown  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:43:50pm

re: #75 sliv_the_eli

As long as they don't have their hands in their pants, which, as candidate O'Donnell has informed us, would be bad.

Or in each other's pants before marriage, or at all if they are of the same gender. Unless they are chicks, according to Paladino.

97 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:44:04pm

re: #91 Capitalist Tool

Oh no, I don't withdraw that at all.
That's what I believe.
Folklorish?

You're contradicting yourself, then.

You're saying simultaneously that you don't believe you know what path evolution will take and that you believe that it will take a path that leads to higher intelligence.

That belief in a 'directed' evolution is folklorish. So you're being half folklorish, half just self-contradictory.

98 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:44:30pm

re: #95 Shropshire_Slasher

Yes I do disagree, It is something called States Rights.

So you believe that states are allowed to pass laws that violate the Constitution?

99 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:44:52pm

re: #95 Shropshire_Slasher

Some people believe in States Rights...

Yeah, those people are known as Confederates.
/half

100 Jack Burton  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:45:16pm

re: #95 Shropshire_Slasher

Yes I do disagree, It is something called States Rights.
Some people believe in States Rights, some do not, some change their mind when it comes to the subject matter. Funding of schools is a state responsiblity in my opinion. I used to live in a poor area with "poor" schools, that is why I moved when I had kids, and with the move came higher taxes, but a "better" school.

States don't have a right to go against the constitution. Federalism has limits and they are right there in black and white, followed up by further clarification of hundreds of federal court cases and a rather nasty war.

101 allegro  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:45:26pm

Just a small point of information... in multicellular organisms evolution doesn't come about much as a result of mutation but much more as a result of recombinant genes.

102 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:45:37pm

re: #84 Capitalist Tool

Just make sure to shave your palms. Unless you prefer waxing.

103 Political Atheist  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:45:38pm

re: #92 jamesfirecat

Ha ha, that's fine. I'm more bothered by being thought of as one to insult over sexuality than one or ten dings. Guilty of schadenfreude anyway, enjoying Rogers possible shock after his hypocrisy.

104 researchok  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:46:04pm

re: #98 Obdicut

So you believe that states are allowed to pass laws that violate the Constitution?

He's treading waster with an anchor around his waist.

105 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:46:11pm

re: #93 Decatur Deb

All true, but someone with more education than brains would want to bring up the old "there hasn't been enough time" BS. Looking at the accelerated mutation drivers tamps that down a bit. Still, I'm 40 years stale on the subject.

You make a fabulous point. Of course you are correct.

We can only knock down denier BS talking points one talking point at a time.

I was specifically addressing the commonly spouted BS about evolution violating the second law.

Back when we had creationist wars here frequently, I heard that one a lot.

106 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:46:24pm

re: #101 allegro

Just a small point of information... in multicellular organisms evolution doesn't come about much as a result of mutation but much more as a result of recombinant genes.

But also:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

It depends what you mean by 'evolution'; the selection, or the process by which the genes that are to be selected for arise.

107 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:46:58pm

re: #97 Obdicut

You're contradicting yourself, then.

You're saying simultaneously that you don't believe you know what path evolution will take and that you believe that it will take a path that leads to higher intelligence.

That belief in a 'directed' evolution is folklorish. So you're being half folklorish, half just self-contradictory.

You pick and choose words well, to make something which is not there, but betray yourself.

108 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:47:12pm

re: #95 Shropshire_Slasher

Yes I do disagree, It is something called States Rights.
Some people believe in States Rights, some do not, some change their mind when it comes to the subject matter. Funding of schools is a state responsiblity in my opinion. I used to live in a poor area with "poor" schools, that is why I moved when I had kids, and with the move came higher taxes, but a "better" school.

So in other words, if you're born in a poor town, don't try to turn it around, just get the f*** out of there.

And people say we liberals hate the heartland....

109 Mentis Fugit  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:47:13pm

Dammit, I wanna teach the controversy. We at the VeryDisco Institute - "Get Down (To The Facts)" - request, nay DEMAND, the right to preach evolution from the pulpit.

What?

110 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:47:28pm

re: #101 allegro

Just a small point of information... in multicellular organisms evolution doesn't come about much as a result of mutation but much more as a result of recombinant genes.

Serious question: If genes recombine in a new way, how is that not a mutation?

111 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:47:32pm

re: #95 Shropshire_Slasher

Yes I do disagree, It is something called States Rights.
Some people believe in States Rights, some do not, some change their mind when it comes to the subject matter. Funding of schools is a state responsiblity in my opinion. I used to live in a poor area with "poor" schools, that is why I moved when I had kids, and with the move came higher taxes, but a "better" school.

How about parental rights? I have the right to determine what religious matters my children will be taught, and in the absence of scientific data, creationism is religion.

Even if 75% of parents wanted their child taught creationism, the 25% that don't have the right to direct their children's religious education.*

*Right up until the 18th birthday, when it is then the young adult's responsibility.

112 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:47:48pm

re: #96 imp_62

Finally, proof that Paladino isn't all bad.

113 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:47:55pm

re: #107 Capitalist Tool

You pick and choose words well, to make something which is not there, but betray yourself.

You see, I actually picked words that you said, and showed how they were contradictory. If you want to refute that, you should make an argument, or show how I'm 'betraying' myself. Otherwise, what you're saying has no force to it.

114 Political Atheist  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:48:08pm

re: #105 LudwigVanQuixote

Loved the Co2 video BTW. I have toyed with the idea of a pro H fuel video. Just 'cause I have access to all the H I could need and a decent camera.

115 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:49:10pm

Dog riot. BBL

116 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:49:28pm

re: #114 Rightwingconspirator

Loved the Co2 video BTW. I have toyed with the idea of a pro H fuel video. Just 'cause I have access to all the H I could need and a decent camera.

I'd like to see it.

I can't take credit for the video I posted though. That was Peter Sinclair, being awesome as usual.

117 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:50:47pm

"State's rights."

Good grief.

118 calochortus  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:50:58pm

re: #116 LudwigVanQuixote

t
I can't take credit for the video I posted though. That was Peter Sinclair, being awesome as usual.

OK, take credit for thinking to post it then, it was a great video.

119 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:51:45pm

re: #118 calochortus

OK, take credit for thinking to post it then, it was a great video.

Thank you! Ding it up so people see it!

120 MinisterO  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:51:55pm

Wow. There's a very good reason for having national education standards. It's only a matter of time before universities in other states start requiring their incoming grads from Texas public high schools to take remedial history and science courses before beginning their degree programs.

121 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:52:49pm

re: #120 MinisterO

Wow. There's a very good reason for having national education standards. It's only a matter of time before universities in other states start requiring their incoming grads from Texas public high schools to take remedial history and science courses before beginning their degree programs.

Except that Texas text books end up getting sold all across the US.... they're not an island of ignorance, they're a gigantic oil spill of the stuff that will infect the rest of us as well!

122 calochortus  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:54:21pm

re: #119 LudwigVanQuixote

Done.

Must get started making dinner. BBL

123 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:54:24pm

re: #117 Charles

"State's rights."

Good grief.

Ahhh yes...

There are certain phrases that people ought to tremble to utter. State's Rights, which of course, had its largest application as an argument for the right of a state to brutally enslave, degrade, hold as property, breed like animals, and dehumanize other human beings.

Anyone who doesn't cringe at the phrase marks themselves quite well.

124 allegro  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:55:25pm

re: #110 LudwigVanQuixote

Serious question: If genes recombine in a new way, how is that not a mutation?

A point of definition really. A mutation of genetic code is a misfire in a manner of speaking that is unlikely to enter the population on even a minimal scale without that misfire occurring simultaneously in a number of individuals. Recombinant genes, for example from individuals from different populations being introduced and breeding, introduce a new recombinant gene sequence that create quick evolutionary changes in the populations.

125 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:57:03pm

re: #120 MinisterO

Wow. There's a very good reason for having national education standards. It's only a matter of time before universities in other states start requiring their incoming grads from Texas public high schools to take remedial history and science courses before beginning their degree programs.

That would already be in place in almost all cases. You simply can't place out of freshman history with that sort of education. Their science standards would be laughed at even more.

The real issue on that front though, is that the Jesus freaks have been making their own universities where the kids never have to leave the echo chamber and indoctrination. Many of those places are not accredited, but these people really don't care.

126 shutdown  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:57:42pm

Well, this has been very invigorating. Family time, now. More online hilarity late, I am sure. The hapless antics of Christine, Carl, Sharron, Glenn and the rest of the TeePee gang will no doubt figure prominently on the evening news.

127 Flounder  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:57:57pm

re: #98 Obdicut
You make a good point, would love to continue, but I am still not advocating for the teaching of creationism in public school. States Rights is what I'm trying to get at. The confederates went to war and lost, 400,000 people died, and the slaves were freed, I'm glad they still teach history.

128 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:59:08pm

re: #127 Shropshire_Slasher

You make a good point, would love to continue, but I am still not advocating for the teaching of creationism in public school. States Rights is what I'm trying to get at. The confederates went to war and lost, 400,000 people died, and the slaves were freed, I'm glad they still teach history.

So you want the states to have the right to do what exactly?

Should the states have the right to over turn federal law?

129 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 4:59:13pm

re: #124 allegro

A point of definition really. A mutation of genetic code is a misfire in a manner of speaking that is unlikely to enter the population on even a minimal scale without that misfire occurring simultaneously in a number of individuals. Recombinant genes, for example from individuals from different populations being introduced and breeding, introduce a new recombinant gene sequence that create quick evolutionary changes in the populations.

OK, fair enough. I'm not a geneticist. I was always taught that a mutation was anytime the code you get out was different than the code you put in. If there is an extra layer to the distinction, so be it.

130 allegro  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:00:10pm

re: #127 Shropshire_Slasher

You make a good point, would love to continue, but I am still not advocating for the teaching of creationism in public school. States Rights is what I'm trying to get at. The confederates went to war and lost, 400,000 people died, and the slaves were freed, I'm glad they still teach history.

I'll ask again, what is it that you want to be taught that isn't or vice versa? What exactly is your issue with national educational requirements?

131 Political Atheist  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:00:45pm

re: #116 LudwigVanQuixote

What I'm thinking is to do some different combustion and show the results. Maybe torch some white marble or polished steel with various burning gases. My point will be that H is worth producing & using now in sensitive areas. Showing people that the carbon in their fuel is just not necessary for combustion itself might alter a few points of view. Of course to be fair I will include the hard truth about the cost of hydrogen and debunk a couple myths about it.

132 Randall Gross  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:01:57pm

Wingnut chants:

"State's Rights!" "State's Rights" "States Rights!"

*cough* Gay Marriage *cough*

"Defense of Marriage Act!" "Defense of Marriage Act!"

133 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:02:11pm

re: #127 Shropshire_Slasher

No State in the Union has the right to violate the constitution or federal law, so the fuzzy notion of "States Rights" is really a non-starter.

134 Ming  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:02:29pm

I'm afraid we may be heading into a time when if an American family wants its children to learn real science, they will either have to send their children to an expensive private school, or remove their children from the school system, and home-school them. I suppose for some, it would be worthwhile to move to a more advanced country like Israel or Germany or France, where science is taught to children.

135 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:03:25pm

Oh no, this looks like a job for Tenther Man, only he can save the day now!

136 Political Atheist  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:04:17pm

GTG

Time for my subterranean electric commute designed & installed by my highly evolved fellow human beings.

BBL

137 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:05:59pm

re: #132 Thanos

Please, do not attempt to confront The FaithfulTM with logical conundrums. I'm on mop detail today and I can do without the extra mess of splodey-brains everywhere.

138 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:08:15pm

Update on yesterday's Oklahoma earthquake..
a geological service (not sure, state or fed) this morning gave the epicenter as 9 miles deep and 5.2 (5.1?) on the scale.
Prev. OK recorded champ quake was 5.5 in the early 50's.

Quite an eyeopener for us, but just a common occurrence in CA and elsewhere.

139 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:08:58pm

re: #134 Ming

I'm afraid we may be heading into a time when if an American family wants its children to learn real science, they will either have to send their children to an expensive private school, or remove their children from the school system, and home-school them.

Imagine how silly we're all gonna look, having to send our kids to a religious (catholic) school just so they can get a proper education in science.

140 allegro  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:10:05pm

re: #129 LudwigVanQuixote

OK, fair enough. I'm not a geneticist. I was always taught that a mutation was anytime the code you get out was different than the code you put in. If there is an extra layer to the distinction, so be it.

That isn't incorrect. It's that a mutation and recombinant genes come about in different ways. Recombinant genes ARE the code that are put in essentially - it's just the way they mix it up in the end product. For instance, two recessive genes for sickle cell anemia result in a child with that genetic code who will have the disease and die in youth, unable to reproduce and hand those genes along. One would therefore think that the gene would quickly die out in the population.

Then there's the child that gets one recessive sickle cell gene from one parent and gets a dominant "healthy" gene from the other parent. That offspring will express a kind of half-way sickle cell condition that is partially expressed but allows for survival and reproduction to continue the gene's existence in the population. It also just so happens to offer the individual protection from the most deadly falciparum form of malaira making it a good thing to have. Without recombinant action this mixing can't occur to result in population changes, thus evolution.

141 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:11:36pm

re: #131 Rightwingconspirator

What I'm thinking is to do some different combustion and show the results. Maybe torch some white marble or polished steel with various burning gases. My point will be that H is worth producing & using now in sensitive areas. Showing people that the carbon in their fuel is just not necessary for combustion itself might alter a few points of view. Of course to be fair I will include the hard truth about the cost of hydrogen and debunk a couple myths about it.

Like I said, I would love to see it.

One of the reasons that I am a strong advocate of greatly expanding the use of modern reactor designs, is that then it would be easier in terms of energy budget, to make hydrogen for fuel.

However, as it is, even just updating the grid, working on transmission losses, and adding wind and solar where appropriate, could reduce our emissions by a vast amount.

If you through some nuclear plants in there, deploy new batteries, and build a recharging infrastructure, we could be completely energy independent and make our emissions go almost to zero.

While it would cost a lot upfront to do all of that, it would also create millions of jobs ranging from low tech (as in the guys in the field maintaining stuff and construction) to the very high tech, and pay for itself relatively quickly since all the money we put into oil would now stay here and the field would also only continue to grow, while generating new wealth.

As an added benefit, we would have greater national security, greater resistance to blackouts or sabotage, less need to go to war, and we would help save off an eco-collapse that would utterly destroy America as we know it.

It would be hard on the Saudis. It would be hard on Venezuala and Russian oil barons. Cry me a river.

It would be hard on Exxon, BP and Haliburton... Cry me another river.

The only group I would feel sympathy for are coal miners. They would have to seek other employment. However, they could do so in a booming economy that would not involve working for their own destruction.

142 Phage  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:12:14pm

I just want know how Science is any way shape or form a State right. The fact that there are people willing to sacrifice their children's education upon the altar of "States Rights" is terrifying.

143 nines09  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:12:35pm

And the first kid to ask where fossils come from shall be stoned and his parents drowned.

144 Sionainn  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:13:01pm

re: #134 Ming

I'm afraid we may be heading into a time when if an American family wants its children to learn real science, they will either have to send their children to an expensive private school, or remove their children from the school system, and home-school them. I suppose for some, it would be worthwhile to move to a more advanced country like Israel or Germany or France, where science is taught to children.

Or have a high school science teacher husband.

145 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:13:10pm

re: #134 Ming

I'm afraid we may be heading into a time when if an American family wants its children to learn real science, they will either have to send their children to an expensive private school, or remove their children from the school system, and home-school them. I suppose for some, it would be worthwhile to move to a more advanced country like Israel or Germany or France, where science is taught to children.

I have often thought that was an actual goal of the GOP. By gutting public education, they have an ignorant and malleable populace.

146 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:14:47pm

re: #142 Phage

I just want know how Science is any way shape or form a State right. The fact that there are people willing to sacrifice their children's education upon the altar of "States Rights" is terrifying.

Ohh its worse than that. People are willing to claim they know what science is, based on their own superstitions, backwards religious and political views. They see it as their "right" to not have people who actually know science telling them, or their kids, otherwise.

147 albusteve  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:15:29pm

re: #145 LudwigVanQuixote

I have often thought that was an actual goal of the GOP. By gutting public education, they have an ignorant and malleable populace.

the population is already malleable and ignorant...I doubt they cannot see this already since they are involved with elected office...good point tho

148 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:16:42pm

re: #145 LudwigVanQuixote

Careful now, that thing is swimming in the same pool with the "Gay Librul Commies are infecting our kids with teh ghey librul comyoonism in our pubic skools!!1!11ty"

149 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:17:36pm

re: #147 albusteve

the population is already malleable and ignorant...I doubt they cannot see this already since they are involved with elected office...good point tho

Upding for the first time I've "seen" you in a while.

150 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:17:54pm

re: #147 albusteve

How's your health, dude?

151 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:18:03pm

The "States Rights" peeps started a war over their freaking slavery States Rights.

They lost.

Deal with it.

152 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:18:05pm

re: #147 albusteve

the population is already malleable and ignorant...I doubt they cannot see this already since they are involved with elected office...good point tho

How are you feeling? Believe it or not, I was worried about you. It's good you are back.

153 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:18:50pm

re: #151 Alouette

The "States Rights" peeps started a war over their freaking slavery States Rights.

They lost.

Deal with it.

Darn tooting!

154 albusteve  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:18:55pm

my health sucks, right up there with my attitude....a twofer

155 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:19:09pm

re: #146 LudwigVanQuixote

People are willing to claim they know what science is, based on their own superstitions, backwards religious and political views.

Which is morbidly hilarious, given that apparently they don't know what their religious views are, either.

156 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:19:15pm

I see Albusteve is lurking on the thread. How ya doin', buddy?

157 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:19:48pm

re: #154 albusteve

my health sucks, right up there with my attitude...a twofer

Bummer.

158 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:19:55pm

re: #154 albusteve

my health sucks, right up there with my attitude...a twofer

Well I hope you feel better. I truly do.

159 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:20:33pm

re: #151 Alouette

The "States Rights" peeps started a war over their freaking slavery States Rights.

They lost.

Deal with it.

Clearly we need to make union victory appreciation month an actual holiday if we want to send a message to these people.

160 albusteve  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:20:49pm

re: #156 Killgore Trout

I see Albusteve is lurking on the thread. How ya doin', buddy?

hanging in there...just when I'm feeling better, I find out I have a problem with my leg...back to surgery #10....unbelievable

161 albusteve  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:21:36pm

re: #158 LudwigVanQuixote

Well I hope you feel better. I truly do.

thanks

162 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:21:56pm

re: #160 albusteve

hanging in there...just when I'm feeling better, I find out I have a problem with my leg...back to surgery #10...unbelievable

Oh, no!

163 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:22:16pm

re: #151 Alouette

The "States Rights" peeps started a war over their freaking slavery States Rights.

They lost.

Deal with it.

The "States Rights" peeps have taken it in the nads over several issues for some time now. I suspect we'll get to seem them take another nut shot in the near future.

164 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:22:48pm

re: #141 LudwigVanQuixote
Oh yeah, there are some cool designs out there.
Some Japanese firm, Toshiba, I think, was going to produce a really small one a few years back for general sale- smaller than 12MW and offer it for sale.

Somebody else had a design for about $7million for about a 7MW design completely sealed and buried underground... turn key, flip a switch, come back in a few years and reload it.

Little reactors like that would be perfect to install on overtaxed grid nodes and a lot of their upfront cost would be saved by just removing the need to run new main feeders into that node and the extraordinary cost to do so.

165 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:23:06pm

re: #154 albusteve

my health sucks, right up there with my attitude...a twofer

Sorry to hear it. Hope you feel better soon.

166 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:23:58pm

re: #155 negativ

Which is morbidly hilarious, given that apparently they don't know what their religious views are, either.

Ohh I know. The questions asked were the sort you ask a person if they had received a head wound and you wanted to see if they were ok.

The only consolation I can take from that poll is that it only surveyed 3000 people. Jews make up about 2% of the populace. So I can believe that of the only 60 Jews they got, 25 were morons.

167 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:24:02pm

re: #160 albusteve

Damn. Hope things start looking up for you soon.

168 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:24:15pm

re: #163 Slumbering Behemoth

The "States Rights" peeps have taken it in the nads over several issues for some time now. I suspect we'll get to seem them take another nut shot in the near future.

They also lost Perry v. Schwarzenegger, though that one won't really leave a dent till it works its way up to the supreme court....

169 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:24:40pm

re: #139 Slumbering Behemoth

Imagine how silly we're all gonna look, having to send our kids to a religious (catholic) school just so they can get a proper education in science.

The Augustinians are very proud of Mendel. They even rap about him:

170 darthstar  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:24:59pm

Just checked...C-SPAN will be airing the Reid-Angle debate...so if you have recovered from the O'Donnell stupidity, there's more to enjoy.

171 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:25:25pm

I just went and checked something. In the last seven years, I have spent $1,400 in science supplies for my kids homeschooling. That doesn't count text books, that's just stuff. It might be a bit more.

The disappointing thing is that we have not yet achieved world OR intergalactic domination. Maybe if I went ahead and ordered those ray guns that the boys have been bugging me to get...

(This is just so that you all know that all homeschoolers are not down on science. It's just that I doubt we could do fraction brownies or tectonic-plate hot fudge cake in school.)

172 Stanghazi  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:25:50pm

re: #160 albusteve

Oh sorry Steve. How are the 'Boys doing?

173 albusteve  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:26:18pm

re: #162 Killgore Trout

Oh, no!

chop chop
it has to end somewhere....I'll survive

174 albusteve  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:26:52pm

re: #172 Stanley Sea

Oh sorry Steve. How are the 'Boys doing?

they suck worse than me....heh

175 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:27:23pm

re: #171 EmmmieG

rayguns, but no light sabers?

176 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:27:29pm

Anyone know of an embeddable live video feed for the Angle-Reid debate?

177 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:28:09pm

re: #173 albusteve

chop chop
it has to end somewhere...I'll survive

What is the underlying cause, if I may ask? If not, just tell me to blow it out my ass. That should be easy since I had chili for dinner that I cooked myself, and I make it super-high octane, if you get my drift.

Which you would if you were downwind.

178 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:29:51pm

re: #145 LudwigVanQuixote

Both the GOP and the Dems have long promoted means of education that will provide them with an ignorant and malleable population. The GOP does it by pushing for such stupidity as teaching creationism as science, while the Dems seek to do it by replacing the fundamentals of Western thought and values (by which I mean freedom, individual liberty and rational thought, not the euphemistic Judeo-Christian values) with moral and cultural relativism. The goal in either case is to mis-educate (if that is a word) the young and raise generations of uninformed and malleable voting blocs in order to achieve and maintain power, the people be damned.

179 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:30:01pm

re: #175 Capitalist Tool

rayguns, but no light sabers?

Light sabers have that regrettable problem that you have to get close to your target, and the one thing my boys can NOT do is be quiet enough to sneak up on anything.

180 Stanghazi  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:30:07pm

re: #174 albusteve

they suck worse than me...heh

Always a bright side!

181 albusteve  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:30:10pm

re: #164 Capitalist Tool

Oh yeah, there are some cool designs out there.
Some Japanese firm, Toshiba, I think, was going to produce a really small one a few years back for general sale- smaller than 12MW and offer it for sale.

Somebody else had a design for about $7million for about a 7MW design completely sealed and buried underground... turn key, flip a switch, come back in a few years and reload it.

Little reactors like that would be perfect to install on overtaxed grid nodes and a lot of their upfront cost would be saved by just removing the need to run new main feeders into that node and the extraordinary cost to do so.

the feds won't license them for production

182 Sionainn  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:30:24pm

re: #173 albusteve

chop chop
it has to end somewhere...I'll survive

It still sucks. Wishing you the best.

183 darthstar  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:31:00pm

re: #176 Charles

Anyone know of an embeddable live video feed for the Angle-Reid debate?

It'll be on C-SPAN, so maybe they have an embeddable? (??)

184 albusteve  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:31:50pm

re: #177 negativ

What is the underlying cause, if I may ask? If not, just tell me to blow it out my ass. That should be easy since I had chili for dinner that I cooked myself, and I make it super-high octane, if you get my drift.

Which you would if you were downwind.

Peripheral Arteriole Disease....killed my right leg and it was amputated

185 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:32:14pm

re: #182 Sionainn

May I ask, is your moniker Irish and if so, would it be pronounced rather like Sinead, as in O'Connor?

186 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:32:28pm

re: #178 sliv_the_eli

Both the GOP and the Dems have long promoted means of education that will provide them with an ignorant and malleable population. The GOP does it by pushing for such stupidity as teaching creationism as science, while the Dems seek to do it by replacing the fundamentals of Western thought and values (by which I mean freedom, individual liberty and rational thought, not the euphemistic Judeo-Christian values) with moral and cultural relativism. The goal in either case is to mis-educate (if that is a word) the young and raise generations of uninformed and malleable voting blocs in order to achieve and maintain power, the people be damned.

Give me some examples of how the Dems are pushing for people to forget about freedom, individual liberty and rational thought....

187 Sionainn  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:32:55pm

re: #176 Charles

Anyone know of an embeddable live video feed for the Angle-Reid debate?

I don't know if it's embeddable, but there's this: [Link: www.vegaspbs.org...]

188 darthstar  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:33:36pm

re: #176 Charles

Anyone know of an embeddable live video feed for the Angle-Reid debate?

[Link: www.vegaspbs.org...]

I don't know if their video stream is embeddable, but it pops up in a windows media player.

189 albusteve  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:33:39pm

re: #186 jamesfirecat

Give me some examples of how the Dems are pushing for people to forget about freedom, individual liberty and rational thought...

cash for clunkers

190 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:34:02pm

re: #181 albusteve

the feds won't license them for production

well, of course... that's the problem with the feds- they outright step on something or are frozen- molasses slow to adapt to any idea remotely useful.

191 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:34:41pm

re: #189 albusteve

cash for clunkers

Was it Freedom, Liberty, or Rational thought which was attacked by that program?

192 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:34:59pm

re: #20 Shropshire_Slasher

I don't' accept your premise, things taught in schools are decided at a local level, not national. If you would like to underwrite my $6k school tax bill, I'll let you opine what you think should be taught here where I live.

Haruspex and dousing are perfectly cromulent sciences, and should be taught right alongside well known snakeoil scams such as "thermodynamics" and "germ theory."

193 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:36:04pm

re: #191 jamesfirecat

Was it Freedom, Liberty, or Rational thought which was attacked by that program?

pockets?

194 albusteve  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:36:05pm

re: #190 Capitalist Tool

well, of course... that's the problem with the feds- they outright step on something or are frozen- molasses slow to adapt to any idea remotely useful.

Hyperion, here in Santa Fe, has a sweetheart reactor they have been sitting on for years and the feds ignore them....it's very frustrating

195 freetoken  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:36:34pm

Let me take this opportunity to pimp a new Page I just put up on this topic:

Creationism In Local American Politics

As for O'Donnell's views, let me copy what I said in Simooms Page:

If one takes what she says literally, verbatim, in her answer to the question she is saying local schools boards ought to be allowed to decide if evolution "is a myth".

She probably really does believe that people get to choose their own reality.

196 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:36:42pm

re: #192 goddamnedfrank

Haruspex and dousing are perfectly cromulent sciences, and should be taught right alongside well known snakeoil scams such as "thermodynamics" and "germ theory."

I'd join the haruspices, but I don't have the guts for it.

197 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:37:05pm

re: #193 Capitalist Tool

pockets?

Huh? That has what to do with the issue being discussed?

198 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:37:34pm

re: #184 albusteve

Peripheral Arteriole Disease...killed my right leg and it was amputated

I'm sorry to hear that.

199 albusteve  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:37:49pm

re: #191 jamesfirecat

Was it Freedom, Liberty, or Rational thought which was attacked by that program?

all three...whatever excuses you have for the behavior of the BO admin will fall on my deaf ears...bunch of willy nilly idiots

200 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:37:58pm

Wow, the stalkers have totally taken over the Guardian comment thread.

All the same names you always see, whenever I post a link to a site that allows comments, ranting like rabid cretins.

And now we have the lunatic 'Bob in Breckenridge,' who has tried to sneak back into LGF more than 10 times with sock puppet accounts. What a bunch of obsessed loons with daddy issues.

201 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:38:32pm

re: #199 albusteve

all three...whatever excuses you have for the behavior of the BO admin will fall on my deaf ears...bunch of willy nilly idiots

Can you explain to me how it attacked those three things?

202 albusteve  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:39:07pm

re: #201 jamesfirecat

Can you explain to me how it attacked those three things?

yes, I could

203 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:39:22pm

re: #200 Charles

Wow, the stalkers have totally taken over the Guardian comment thread.

All the same names you always see, whenever I post a link to a site that allows comments, ranting like rabid cretins.

And now we have the lunatic 'Bob in Breckenridge,' who has tried to sneak back into LGF more than 10 times with sock puppet accounts. What a bunch of obsessed loons with daddy issues.

You really do know how to chum the waters Charles.

204 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:39:32pm

re: #195 freetoken

Let me take this opportunity to pimp a new Page I just put up on this topic:

Creationism In Local American Politics

Excellent! This is the kind of stuff I created the Pages system for. Thanks.

205 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:39:49pm

re: #202 albusteve

yes, I could

Will you?

206 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:40:04pm

I get a big bang out of this creationism controversy.

207 freetoken  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:40:17pm

re: #200 Charles

Do you think The Guardian would be interested in a follow up article on the obsessive-compulsive nature of the stalkers, and how they resonated the "Gellerness" of the Harpy herself?

208 Sionainn  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:40:57pm

re: #185 Capitalist Tool

May I ask, is your moniker Irish and if so, would it be pronounced rather like Sinead, as in O'Connor?

Yes, it's Shannon...as close as I can tell, pronounced "Shin-an."

209 freetoken  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:41:06pm

re: #204 Charles

You're welcome. It was a good day when you created the Pages system.

210 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:41:22pm

re: #194 albusteve

Hyperion, here in Santa Fe, has a sweetheart reactor they have been sitting on for years and the feds ignore them...it's very frustrating

Yeah, Hyperion was one of the firms I had linked on my main netrig, which died a while back. Neat stuff.
Hell, I'd love to have a little nuke. I could run my stuff all year instead of just in winter, to help heat my house. Those TFLOPS will spin a meter.
I haven't gotten around to re-adding all niceties and links from a backup drive, yet.

211 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:41:23pm

re: #186 jamesfirecat

I was referring more generally to the general replacement of teaching the fundamentals of Western civilzation, with its emphasis on individual liberty and rational thought, with cultural and mroal relativism.

212 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:41:53pm

re: #211 sliv_the_eli

I was referring more generally to the general replacement of teaching the fundamentals of Western civilzation, with its emphasis on individual liberty and rational thought, with cultural and mroal relativism.

Can you give me some examples of it?

213 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:41:57pm

re: #191 jamesfirecat

All of the above (?)

214 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:42:11pm

re: #213 sliv_the_eli

All of the above (?)

Will you kindly explain how?

215 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:42:15pm

re: #206 Ojoe

I get a big bang out of this creationism controversy.

It's improving. Used to be full of dodos.

216 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:42:37pm

re: #197 jamesfirecat

Huh? That has what to do with the issue being discussed?

freedom, liberty, rational thought, taxpayer pockets...

217 albusteve  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:43:30pm

re: #205 jamesfirecat

Will you?

sorry, no
check out the archives

218 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:43:32pm

re: #8 sliv_the_eli

The incredible thing about O'Donnell and her handlers' incompetence, is that they could always score cheap points by identifying the Dred Scott case or Plessy v Ferguson as examples where the Supreme Court got it just plain wrong. Unless, of course, they think those decisions were correctly decided...

Bush once brought up Dredd Scott in exactly that situation, IIRC. I think it's actually a case that anti-abortion activists find significant. Perfect for her.

Of course, Bush used it, and she did not, because Bush is smarter than she is, and also had Condi Rice preparing him for this kind of thing.

219 albusteve  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:44:30pm

re: #215 Decatur Deb

It's improving. Used to be full of dodos.

DEVOLUTION!

220 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:44:51pm

re: #216 Capitalist Tool

freedom, liberty, rational thought, taxpayer pockets...

Will YOU explain how?

Sorry but you're the third person in a row now who has advanced this opinion or something like it without telling me/LGF WHY they think that way...

221 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:45:06pm

re: #33 sliv_the_eli

Only if she was a Muslim living in the West. In such enlightened places as Saudi Arabia she would have to keep her mouth shut.

"I would never permit my wife to speak in public. But I would make an exception so she could say---Death to America!"

222 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:45:23pm

re: #220 jamesfirecat

Will YOU explain how?

Sorry but you're the third person in a row now who has advanced this opinion or something like it without telling me/LGF WHY they think that way...

It just does! Okay?!

223 freetoken  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:45:38pm

Regarding my latest creationism Page, I've had those links open in tabs for a couple of days now, but just didn't have the time to write up what was needed.

Also, it seems like there are certain times of the day are better for posting than others.

I also have a bunch of tabs open on candidates that The Sarah Esther endorsed on Monday:
[Link: www.facebook.com...]

There are a couple of real "winners" in that list.

224 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:45:47pm

re: #219 albusteve

DEVOLUTION!

No, this is Devo-Lution

[Link: www.google.com...]

225 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:45:50pm

Time to post this again:

Benedict XVI said the debate raging in some countries — particularly the United States and his native Germany — between creationism and evolution was an “absurdity,” saying that evolution can coexist with faith.
The pontiff, speaking as he was concluding his holiday in northern Italy, also said that while there is much scientific proof to support evolution, the theory could not exclude a role by God.
“They are presented as alternatives that exclude each other,” the pope said. “This clash is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such.”
He said evolution did not answer all the questions: “Above all it does not answer the great philosophical question, ‘Where does everything come from?’”

Link

226 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:47:50pm

re: #212 jamesfirecat

Are you suggesting that our education system does not teach cultural and moral relativism?

227 albusteve  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:48:05pm

re: #224 Decatur Deb

No, this is Devo-Lution

[Link: www.google.com...]

I think some of the message is lost in the hats

228 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:48:06pm

re: #220 jamesfirecat

Will YOU explain how?

Sorry but you're the third person in a row now who has advanced this opinion or something like it without telling me/LGF WHY they think that way...

Give it up guy. Ours is not to reason why but to scream soshulism!

229 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:48:22pm

re: #223 freetoken

Regarding my latest creationism Page, I've had those links open in tabs for a couple of days now, but just didn't have the time to write up what was needed.

Also, it seems like there are certain times of the day are better for posting than others.

I also have a bunch of tabs open on candidates that The Sarah Esther endorsed on Monday:
[Link: www.facebook.com...]

There are a couple of real "winners" in that list.

Great, I was starting to look into those Palin endorsements too, because you know that anyone Palin backs is going to be cuckoo.

230 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:48:33pm

re: #225 Ojoe

Time to post this again:

Benedict XVI said the debate raging in some countries — particularly the United States and his native Germany — between creationism and evolution was an “absurdity,” saying that evolution can coexist with faith.
The pontiff, speaking as he was concluding his holiday in northern Italy, also said that while there is much scientific proof to support evolution, the theory could not exclude a role by God.
“They are presented as alternatives that exclude each other,” the pope said. “This clash is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such.”
He said evolution did not answer all the questions: “Above all it does not answer the great philosophical question, ‘Where does everything come from?’”

Link

Sadly Stephen Hawking was pounding away at that "great philosophical question" last time I checked, but still I suppose this is one of the few things I'll give the current pope a pat on the back for doing a good job on.

Right before I give him a kick in the pants for how he's handling the abuse scandles....

231 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:48:55pm

re: #226 sliv_the_eli

Are you suggesting that our education system does not teach cultural and moral relativism?

I didn't realize it was doing so.

Perhaps you could prove it to me with some examples!

232 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:48:57pm

re: #227 albusteve

I think some of the message is lost in the hats

And in the couch cushions.

233 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:49:10pm

re: #214 jamesfirecat

Will you kindly explain how?

On that one, I was being facetious, but accidentally used a question mark instead of the sarc tag. Sorry for the confusion. I don't think cash for clunkers has anything to do with liberty, etc., only that it was a stupid waste of taxpayer money.

234 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:50:23pm

re: #227 albusteve

I think some of the message is lost in the hats

Never figured out how people who were younger than I am became older than I am.

235 Stanghazi  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:50:29pm

re: #229 Charles

Great, I was starting to look into those Palin endorsements too, because you know that anyone Palin backs is going to be cuckoo.

And taking money from the higher ups with a plan.

236 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:50:33pm

re: #218 SanFranciscoZionist

I was struck in both Palin's and O'Donnell's case that they didn't at least know that much. Of course, I suspect that the Supreme Court case they woudl have liked to identify is Roe v Wade, but that their handlers told them not to do so.

237 Lidane  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:50:33pm

re: #95 Shropshire_Slasher

Yes I do disagree, It is something called States Rights.

Federal > State. Period. States can't pass laws that violate federal laws. It's been that way from the beginning.

Don't like it? Tough. That's how our system works.

238 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:51:30pm

re: #221 SanFranciscoZionist

"I would never permit my wife to speak in public. But I would make an exception so she could say---Death to America!"

Is that because you are in San Francisco, or what you would do if you were in Saudi Arabia?

239 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:52:22pm

re: #226 sliv_the_eli

Are you suggesting that our education system does not teach cultural and moral relativism?

And what's wrong with cultural or moral relativism? Isn't the basis of individual liberty the right to determine your own morals and cultural norms? It has limits, true, but what works in one place doesn't necessarily work everywhere.

240 albusteve  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:52:30pm

re: #234 Decatur Deb

Never figured out how people who were younger than I am became older than I am.

you should write a song

241 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:52:42pm

re: #64 Decatur Deb

Yup, even in a seminary, even in the 60s.

My dad, as a little boy in the 1950s, was told by the nuns--old-fashioned nuns in habits--the same nuns who would make you kneel for hours if you displeased them--that evolution appeared to be the means by which God had chosen to create.

242 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:52:59pm

re: #66 Charles

This just in: Robert Spencer is demanding a chance to defend Pamela Geller at the Guardian.

Let guess. Whining at fifteen paces?

243 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:53:20pm

re: #68 sliv_the_eli

Since someone has to do it, allow me to point out that Christine O'Donnell defeated the choice of the Delaware GOP in the primary.

I'm sure the Delaware GOP remembers that part.

244 freetoken  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:53:48pm

re: #229 Charles

She's clearly shopping her influence, in hopes she will have enough quid pro quo points for a future endeavor.

245 Stanghazi  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:53:54pm

HuffPo headline: (Christine O'Donnell)

"I've got Sean Hannity in my back pocket"

according to two top GOP insiders, she said at a strategy meeting with DC types last week: "I've got Sean Hannity in my back pocket, and I can go on his show and raise money by attacking you guys."

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

Howard Fineman

246 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:54:08pm

re: #240 albusteve

you should write a song

It would be a sad song, and herds of unicorns would run off cliffs when it was played.

247 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:54:27pm

re: #134 Ming

I'm afraid we may be heading into a time when if an American family wants its children to learn real science, they will either have to send their children to an expensive private school, or remove their children from the school system, and home-school them. I suppose for some, it would be worthwhile to move to a more advanced country like Israel or Germany or France, where science is taught to children.

Probably cheaper to send your kid to a private school than relocate to Germany ;-)

248 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:54:55pm

re: #245 Stanley Sea

HuffPo headline: (Christine O'Donnell)

"I've got Sean Hannity in my back pocket"

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

Howard Fineman

I'm gonna get in trouble for this:

I think she was misquoted. What she said was "I have my hand in Sean Hannity's front pocket"

249 albusteve  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:55:01pm

re: #244 freetoken

She's clearly shopping her influence, in hopes she will have enough quid pro quo points for a future endeavor.

exactly....she has a plan

250 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:55:22pm

re: #245 Stanley Sea

HuffPo headline: (Christine O'Donnell)

"I've got Sean Hannity in my back pocket"

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

Howard Fineman

You really can't make this shit up, the truth of it is just too weird :D

251 Lidane  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:55:28pm

re: #245 Stanley Sea

HuffPo headline: (Christine O'Donnell)

"I've got Sean Hannity in my back pocket"

LOL! I'm pretty sure Sean Hannity would have a few things to say about that.

252 freetoken  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:56:08pm

re: #229 Charles

BTW, if you've not found it yet, one of Esther's new stars (Bill Marcy) puts it simply: "All abortions are immoral."

Check out this vid, start at the 4:00 mark:

253 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:56:40pm

re: #244 freetoken

She's clearly shopping her influence, in hopes she will have enough quid pro quo points for a future endeavor.

I'm curious where Palin will eventually end up, like what her peak will be

She's sort of a fascinating avatar of a very strange and uneducated segment of the populace

254 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:56:52pm

re: #139 Slumbering Behemoth

Imagine how silly we're all gonna look, having to send our kids to a religious (catholic) school just so they can get a proper education in science.

As a Catholic school teacher, I would like to state for the record that our science education rocks and rolls.

Except for the poor guy at my last school who walked into the teacher's lounge with a final last year, and said, "You wanna hear one of my student's definition of matter?"

"Sure," we said.

"Matter," he read, "is anything that takes up space and has gas."

255 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:58:14pm

re: #171 EmmmieG

I just went and checked something. In the last seven years, I have spent $1,400 in science supplies for my kids homeschooling. That doesn't count text books, that's just stuff. It might be a bit more.

The disappointing thing is that we have not yet achieved world OR intergalactic domination. Maybe if I went ahead and ordered those ray guns that the boys have been bugging me to get...

(This is just so that you all know that all homeschoolers are not down on science. It's just that I doubt we could do fraction brownies or tectonic-plate hot fudge cake in school.)

There's stuff you can do with a small group that you simply can't do in a school setting. Sometimes I am jealous.

256 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:58:16pm

re: #220 jamesfirecat

sure... mine was just a whimsical tag onto your post.
Beyond that, I didn't think the cash for clunkers program was effective anywhere near what it cost taxpayers and that some results of it's implementation served as prime example of the law of unintended consequences at work.

One example in particular- a lot of lower- end but perfectly serviceable vehicles were abruptly taken out of the market. This resulted in an attendant rise in market price for used vehicles, with the greatest impact falling on those who could least afford it.
There has also been an upswing in theft of older models, usually for parts, and almost always from some poor working guy who barely makes ends meet and had no comprehensive theft insurance on his former $1700 pickup and will have hell paying for it's now more expensive replacement so that he can get to work and feed his kids.

257 Stanghazi  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:58:24pm

re: #251 Lidane

LOL! I'm pretty sure Sean Hannity would have a few things to say about that.

He might, but will his boss let him?

Sad state of affairs we are witnessing.

258 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:59:21pm

re: #229 Charles

backs a cuckoo? she had her back to some turkeys...

259 Stanghazi  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:59:32pm

re: #253 WindUpBird

I'm curious where Palin will eventually end up, like what her peak will be

She's sort of a fascinating avatar of a very strange and uneducated segment of the populace

My hope, HOPE is that she's just milking it for the money and won't actually run for office. Then I think of the power jones. She's going to run.

ooooh boy.

260 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 5:59:40pm

re: #254 SanFranciscoZionist

As a Catholic school teacher, I would like to state for the record that our science education rocks and rolls.

Except for the poor guy at my last school who walked into the teacher's lounge with a final last year, and said, "You wanna hear one of my student's definition of matter?"

"Sure," we said.

"Matter," he read, "is anything that takes up space and has gas."

Um..that would actually be me.

261 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 6:00:43pm

re: #171 EmmmieG

I just went and checked something. In the last seven years, I have spent $1,400 in science supplies for my kids homeschooling. That doesn't count text books, that's just stuff. It might be a bit more.

200 bucks a year...

that can't be too far off from the money my parents dropped on art supplies when I was a kid, though they weren't homeschooling per se, clearly I was homeschooling myself when it came to making strange stuff in my room :D

262 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 6:00:45pm

re: #256 Capitalist Tool

sure... mine was just a whimsical tag onto your post.
Beyond that, I didn't think the cash for clunkers program was effective anywhere near what it cost taxpayers and that some results of it's implementation served as prime example of the law of unintended consequences at work.

One example in particular- a lot of lower- end but perfectly serviceable vehicles were abruptly taken out of the market. This resulted in an attendant rise in market price for used vehicles, with the greatest impact falling on those who could least afford it.
There has also been an upswing in theft of older models, usually for parts, and almost always from some poor working guy who barely makes ends meet and had no comprehensive theft insurance on his former $1700 pickup and will have hell paying for it's now more expensive replacement so that he can get to work and feed his kids.

All of this has NOTHING to do with the bigger issue of if liberals are trying to attack Liberty, Freedom, and or rational thought...

263 albusteve  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 6:01:29pm

re: #262 jamesfirecat

All of this has NOTHING to do with the bigger issue of if liberals are trying to attack Liberty, Freedom, and or rational thought...

think big

264 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 6:01:55pm

re: #259 Stanley Sea

My hope, HOPE is that she's just milking it for the money and won't actually run for office. Then I think of the power jones. She's going to run.

oooh boy.

yeah, the best for American would be if she turns out to be a snake oil salesman, just like a republican version of one of those annoying celebrities who is more famous for being famous than anything else

THANKS FOR THE SUPPORT YOU STUPID BASTARDS, I HAVE A REALITY SHOW NOW, YEAH!

265 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 6:03:07pm

re: #229 Charles

I just posted this at the Gaurdian web site.

I took it from my:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I am a long time and current poster at LGF.

I'm not making this post so much as to dish (well a little) but more to fill in some history for those who might not know, and about some of the personalities involved.

The first thing to say, is that the stalkers of LGF really are stalkers. Bob in Breckinridge is one of them. How seriously you take them likely depends on any number of circumstances, but they have tried very hard to find the real world identity of various LGF posters and have certainly issued threats in addition to endless screeds of vile and insulting mails. Vile and insulting means the worst sort of middle school insults, incoherent rage and genuine hatred. They have seriously threatened the life and limb of Charles and others.

So where did they come from? Well once upon a time, a boy demented troll loved a girl demented troll, who drank during pregnancy very much... More seriously, it started when a group of very unpleasant folks misunderstood the nature of LGF.

After 9-11, LGF posted much about Islamic terrorists and the various threats aimed at America and Israel from the Islamic world. Those threats were, and still are, very real. This, on the one hand, placed this blog at odds with certain left wing sorts who were apologists for Islamic extremism and very anti-Israel. This also attracted various far right sorts to this site like moths to a flame.

There is nothing wrong with being conservative. There is an awful lot wrong with becoming the very things you claim to hate - as in a drooling, genocide preaching fanatic.

Early on, Charles, our gracious host, had made connections with other bloggers who were involved in blogging about the dangers of radical Islam - people like Pam Geller and allahpundit to name a few. Charles however, was never of the let's kill them all mentality. Charles also was always willing to reach out to the left and talk with them too. He was one of the founders of Pajamas media - which was envisioned as a right meets left and debates and discusses sort of site. He was never a racist or a bigot. When he discovered these people sliding into true craziness and actually siding with bona fide neo nazis like Vlaams Belang, Neo Confederates, white supremacists, Christian Dominionists and other truly scary and repugnant sorts, Charles left in disgust and voiced very strongly that he had no desire to be involved with such repulsive things. Pajamas media mutated into a cesspool of uber right craziness.

This angered the crazy right wing contingent here to no end. As political events moved forward at home, and the American right began getting even more crazy, the unpleasant sorts at LGF were even more shocked to find that Charles does not care for sexism, homophobia, attempting to destroy the Establishment clause etc... either.

Another split was when Charles and other posters began arguing that yes indeed, Evolution really did happen. Many people here were shocked that their creationist views were challenged by hard science - not only challenged, but shown to be foolish and irrational. A similar thing happened with AGW. Charles started out as a skeptic on that issue, but came to realize that just as the right lied about evolution routinely, they were even more grievously lying about AGW with many of the same tactics and many of the same marketing firms and think tanks. Again, hard science won out.

This created a diaspora of people who hate LGF and hate Charles and certain posters here with an almost religious fervor. Some left on their own, others were banned after outbursts. Ever since, they have carried a childish grudge. They have their own little web sites now where the main purpose seems to be providing an echo-chamber for like minded genocide preaching, history revising, anti-science, conspiracy mongering psychosis and bitching about how much they hate us.

266 freetoken  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 6:03:47pm

re: #253 WindUpBird

She is no Ronald Reagan. In other words, she won't have a second chance and win the Presidency. At least Reagan served out his term as Governor.

I see Esther as another George Wallace, in many ways. Can never be President, but really lusts after it. She is the smiling front to a sea of frightened and hateful back-woods folks, and a tool for those who have much money.

267 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 6:05:50pm

re: #226 sliv_the_eli

Are you suggesting that our education system does not teach cultural and moral relativism?

I taught in a public middle school for two years, and a public high school for one, and we sure didn't teach anything like that.

268 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 6:06:57pm

re: #236 sliv_the_eli

I was struck in both Palin's and O'Donnell's case that they didn't at least know that much. Of course, I suspect that the Supreme Court case they woudl have liked to identify is Roe v Wade, but that their handlers told them not to do so.

I think that in Palin's case the interviewer posited that one, then asked her for another.

269 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 6:07:16pm

re: #262 jamesfirecat

i was only talking about the comment close at hand in the original post i'd tagged onto- mentioned the cash4clunkers prgrm... that's all it had to do with...
wasn't talking about liberalism... didn't even see what was upthread from that post

270 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 6:07:24pm

re: #238 sliv_the_eli

Is that because you are in San Francisco, or what you would do if you were in Saudi Arabia?

Old SNL or MadTv skit.

271 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 6:08:24pm

re: #256 Capitalist Tool

sure... mine was just a whimsical tag onto your post.
Beyond that, I didn't think the cash for clunkers program was effective anywhere near what it cost taxpayers and that some results of it's implementation served as prime example of the law of unintended consequences at work.

One example in particular- a lot of lower- end but perfectly serviceable vehicles were abruptly taken out of the market. This resulted in an attendant rise in market price for used vehicles, with the greatest impact falling on those who could least afford it.
There has also been an upswing in theft of older models, usually for parts, and almost always from some poor working guy who barely makes ends meet and had no comprehensive theft insurance on his former $1700 pickup and will have hell paying for it's now more expensive replacement so that he can get to work and feed his kids.


Dude, as a guy who knows mechanics, hangs out with mechanics who flip cars, and who just trolls cragislist and autotrader looking for deals just because its fun, it's actually pretty damn easy, yes, even in the height of Cash 4 Clunkers, to find a car for very little.

You know what got clunked? shitty Caprices, big V8s, big thirsty and crappy trucks, big overengineered BMW 7-series and S-classes and bloated Caddys that would cost a fortune to get up to working order. NOT THE KIND OF CAR FOR SOMEONE ON A BUDGET.

in the height of cash for clunkers, friends of mine have scored mindblowing deals on Craigslist for their cars. I don't believe for a moment that cash for clunkers somehow ruined the used car market. That's bullcrap, because I watch the used car market for fun. It may be a thing you SUSPECT, but it doesn't seem to reflect reality. That's what we in America call "Talking out of your ass."


This whole demonizing the cash for clunkers thing, it's all talking points, you seem to like talking points a lot!

272 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 6:09:09pm

re: #178 sliv_the_eli

Bullshit.

273 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 6:10:16pm

re: #178 sliv_the_eli

Both the GOP and the Dems have long promoted means of education that will provide them with an ignorant and malleable population. The GOP does it by pushing for such stupidity as teaching creationism as science, while the Dems seek to do it by replacing the fundamentals of Western thought and values (by which I mean freedom, individual liberty and rational thought, not the euphemistic Judeo-Christian values) with moral and cultural relativism. The goal in either case is to mis-educate (if that is a word) the young and raise generations of uninformed and malleable voting blocs in order to achieve and maintain power, the people be damned.

Sliv loves the magical balance fairy!


Sliv not too bright

274 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 6:12:07pm

re: #272 Obdicut

Bullshit.

MORAL RELATIVISM!

It's poisoning our precious children!

Why, our beloved, our most precious resource, our children... might...they just...

....might...

MIGHT...

....intellectually examine their life, their politics, their morals...and come to their own conclusions!!!


STOP THEM

275 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 6:12:44pm

re: #263 albusteve

think big

Paranoia and re: #274 WindUpBird

MORAL RELATIVISM!

It's poisoning our precious children!

and polluting our precious bodily fluids.

276 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 6:12:58pm

re: #178 sliv_the_eli

Both the GOP and the Dems have long promoted means of education that will provide them with an ignorant and malleable population. The GOP does it by pushing for such stupidity as teaching creationism as science, while the Dems seek to do it by replacing the fundamentals of Western thought and values (by which I mean freedom, individual liberty and rational thought, not the euphemistic Judeo-Christian values) with moral and cultural relativism. The goal in either case is to mis-educate (if that is a word) the young and raise generations of uninformed and malleable voting blocs in order to achieve and maintain power, the people be damned.

"cultural relativism"


Now, what could someone mean by that? :D

277 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 6:13:16pm

re: #275 PT Barnum

Paranoia and re: #274 WindUpBird

and polluting our precious bodily fluids.

YOU'LL ANSWER TO THE COCA COLA COMPANY

278 Kruk  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 6:13:26pm

re: #254 SanFranciscoZionist

As a Catholic school teacher, I would like to state for the record that our science education rocks and rolls.

Except for the poor guy at my last school who walked into the teacher's lounge with a final last year, and said, "You wanna hear one of my student's definition of matter?"

"Sure," we said.

"Matter," he read, "is anything that takes up space and has gas."

Heh. A guy in my high school chemistry class was asked what "hard water" was.

Correct answer: Water containing dissolved limestone

His answer? "Ice!" :D

279 Kruk  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 6:17:24pm

re: #274 WindUpBird


STOP THEM

Heh. "I believe children are the future. Unless we stop them." Bonus marks to anyone who places that.

280 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 6:23:17pm

So Silver, do you have any way to backup your statements or were you just Bsing us?

281 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 7:20:18pm

re: #276 WindUpBird

"cultural relativism"

Now, what could someone mean by that? :D

I could tell you, but I'd have to regurgitate half a semester. Then I'd have to kill you.

282 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 14, 2010 8:12:16pm

re: #271 WindUpBird

Dude, as a guy who knows mechanics, hangs out with mechanics who flip cars, and who just trolls cragislist and autotrader looking for deals just because its fun, it's actually pretty damn easy, yes, even in the height of Cash 4 Clunkers, to find a car for very little.

You know what got clunked? shitty Caprices, big V8s, big thirsty and crappy trucks, big overengineered BMW 7-series and S-classes and bloated Caddys that would cost a fortune to get up to working order. NOT THE KIND OF CAR FOR SOMEONE ON A BUDGET.

in the height of cash for clunkers, friends of mine have scored mindblowing deals on Craigslist for their cars. I don't believe for a moment that cash for clunkers somehow ruined the used car market. That's bullcrap, because I watch the used car market for fun. It may be a thing you SUSPECT, but it doesn't seem to reflect reality. That's what we in America call "Talking out of your ass."

This whole demonizing the cash for clunkers thing, it's all talking points, you seem to like talking points a lot!

What a load- you are so full o' shit.

You spend so much time flailin' away at others for using anecdotes, so what do you do?
You 'know some mechanics' you 'hang out with mechanics'.. could you be more lame? Some of your best friends are mechanics
HA!

Ooh- you've got a computer and have time to spend cruisin' Craigslist. Ain't you special? That doesn't mean that Joe Blow across town from you has the same luxury and just because your asshole buddy found a deal on Craigslist doesn't mean that Joe B. would find the same kind of deal for something to haul his family around or that he's even heard of Craigslist.

Just because you can't fit an idea into your pea brain doesn't mean it ain't happenin' out there for someone else.

You are so damned obvious it's pathetic. Every time you don't have a leg to stand on, which is about all the time- you throw out that line about 'talking points'. What a bunch o' shite. Oh, yeah, you're a great one for throwing around the "Right Winger" screed too. Can't make a valid point so you fling epithets. You couldn't get any more ridiculous if you fucking tried.

That's right, I'm laughing at you, dumbass.

283 m0nkeyb0y  Fri, Oct 15, 2010 11:10:48am

thank you for the LGF history lesson.

Explains much and increases my respect for Charles, you, and all the regulars here

284 m0nkeyb0y  Fri, Oct 15, 2010 11:12:39am

re: #283 m0nkeyb0y

thank you for the LGF history lesson.

Explains much and increases my respect for Charles, you, and all the regulars here

Sorry, this is regards LudwigVanQuixote 's #265

285 Coachrichard  Fri, Oct 15, 2010 2:23:51pm

re: #282 Capitalist Tool

Coach think Capitalist Tool needs a nap

286 gadlaw  Fri, Oct 15, 2010 2:58:15pm

It's our own brand of shiny happy faced American Taliban. Lots of pretty, harmless looking women full of crazy, insane, religious based insanity. I'm discouraged but not surprised with their followings and their popularity. Superficially attractive but not sane, it's what we've got with a culture based on Kardasians and Paris Hilton's and Lindsay Lohan types being stars. The shame of it is that every two years we have to rest our political futures in the hands of people who think ODonnell and Palin and the like are 'real neeto'.


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