GOP Creationist Candidates in Illinois Pushing the New Talking Point

Politics • Views: 8,686

In this political silly season, the Republican Party has been developing a new talking point intended to help sneak creationism into public schools; they’re trying to hitch a ride on the Tea Party’s “limited government” bandwagon, and pushing the idea that local schools should be able to teach creationism if they choose, without interference from the big bad feds. And with a deceptive, twisted irony, they often cast this as being in favor of the best education for America’s kids.

This was Christine O’Donnell’s point when she said recently that local public schools should be allowed to teach creationism as “an equal theory” to evolution.

Greg Laden points out that both the GOP candidate for Governor of Illinois and a Congressional candidate in an important swing district are pushing the same meme: Citizens of Illinois: Alert! Alert! Creationist Alert!

The current leading candidate in the Illinois Governor’s race, State Senator Bill Brady, has acknowledged his belief in intelligent design and his willingness to permit individual school districts to allow it to be taught. Teaching ID in schools isn’t a top campaign issue and doesn’t get addressed in debates, but the outcome of this election could mean a disastrous turning point for Illinois schools and science in general. The situation in Illinois is such that if Sen. Brady wins, many school districts in the southern half of the state may pursue teaching creationism in schools.

Youtube Video

Also, in a Congressional race in the very large 14th district, State Senator Randy Hultgren is challenging Congressman Bill Foster in an extremely tight contest. Congressman Foster is currently one of only 3 physicists in Congress. (The others are Vernon Ehlers of Michigan who is retiring, and Rush Holt of New Jersey who is in a close race.) This seat has been targeted by the Republican Congressional Committee and the Tea Party for takeover. It is a swing district (previously held by former House Speaker Dennis Hastert) and if Congressman Foster loses, it will be tough to win this seat back. This clip shows Hultgren stating his belief in intelligent design and willingness to allow school districts to permit it.

Youtube Video

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381 comments
1 darthstar  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:19:47pm

You’d think intelligent design would have at least produced some intelligent product. These guys are idiots.

2 iossarian  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:21:49pm

“Well, gravity’s just a theory, Bob. Now I’m not saying that we shouldn’t explore those theories. But, teach the alternative, you know?”

3 darthstar  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:22:38pm

re: #2 iossarian

“Well, gravity’s just a theory, Bob. Now I’m not saying that we shouldn’t explore those theories. But, teach the alternative, you know?”

I know a great way for these guys to explore the theory of gravity.

4 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:23:49pm

Wake me up when the creationists/IDists come up with a valid theory.

5 theheat  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:24:23pm

I’m calling the 888 number for prayer.
//

6 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:25:26pm

As long as the FSM, Lovecraftian Creationism, and Kragar’s theory of Perpetual Creation are covered in the curriculum, I have no problem with their teaching of creationism.

Otherwise, they can fuck right off.

7 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:25:40pm

Yeah. Kick out the physicist and let in a creationist. That’ll help the country.

Morons.

8 BishopX  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:26:06pm

When they can explain how putting blood vessels in front of my retina is an intelligent design choice, then I’ll start listening. Given my eyes, throat and testicles I see absolutely no evidence of intelligence in my design.

9 darthstar  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:26:10pm

re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

they can fuck right off.

Quoted, and bolded, for truth.

10 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:26:32pm

re: #4 b_sharp

Wake me up when the creationists/IDists come up with a valid theory.

First, there was nothing.

Then God said let there be light.

There was still nothing, but now you could see it.

11 iossarian  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:26:40pm

re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Kragar’s theory of Perpetual Creation

Is that how babies get made?

12 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:26:42pm

re: #5 theheat

I’m calling the 888 number for prayer.
//

Isn’t that a 1-900 number?

I’m just askin’.

13 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:27:45pm

re: #11 iossarian

Is that how babies get made?

God created the Universe just prior to this comment. Any data to the contrary was put there by God to trick us.

14 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:27:59pm

re: #8 BishopX

When they can explain how putting blood vessels in front of my retina is an intelligent design choice, then I’ll start listening. Given my eyes, throat and testicles I see absolutely no evidence of intelligence in my design.

Well, when you get really old (like me) your balls hang so low you can use them as weapons.

15 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:28:05pm

I’ve said it many times before but creationism is simply not scientific. If you want to teach it, teach it in a religion class or teach it to your children but do not try to push it as if it’s science. Darwin’s theories whether they want to admit or not are based on science hence why they’re taught in a science class. I wouldn’t want Darwin taught in a religion class. Why is this so hard to understand for these pepole?

16 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:28:27pm

re: #10 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

First, there was nothing.

Then God said let there be light.

There was still nothing, but now you could see it.

LOL.

17 jaunte  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:29:43pm

re: #15 HappyWarrior

Creationism is useful; but only for fooling some voters into electing conservatives.

18 iossarian  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:29:45pm

re: #15 HappyWarrior

Why is this so hard to understand for these pepole?

Because they are not very bright.

Which is not a reason to look down on them. But it is a reason to try to limit their influence on education policy.

19 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:30:18pm

re: #15 HappyWarrior

I’ve said it many times before but creationism is simply not scientific. If you want to teach it, teach it in a religion class or teach it to your children but do not try to push it as if it’s science. Darwin’s theories whether they want to admit or not are based on science hence why they’re taught in a science class. I wouldn’t want Darwin taught in a religion class. Why is this so hard to understand for these pepole?

How about teaching Evilution, in all its godless wonder, in church?

20 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:31:32pm

Here’s how it should be done if you want to go that route with intelligent design:

First students learn the scientifically accepted facts behind the creation of our universe and our planet (Big Bang Theory and all), THEN they are taught that certain groups have other ideas about how we all came to be, followed by teachings from Christianity as well as other religions and other groups that have creation ideas.

The problem I have with this Republican approach is that they seem to want schools to teach that God created everything, no ifs, ands or buts.

If there’s one thing this world badly needs more of, it’s logical and critical thinkers. We need an education system that aids in creating them, not indoctrinates them to one single point of view among many.

21 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:32:13pm

Notice the slight dig at unions?

School boards, unless they are lined with established scientists and science instructors, have no business dictating science curriculum.

So what is the real goal of pushing pseudo-science in the classroom? Do creationists really want kids to be taught that Jesus walked with dinosaurs, and to abandon critical thinking? To what end? Is it easier to ram religious fundamentalism down someone’s throat if they’ve been spoon fed BS in the classroom since day one? Seriously. Anyone care to address this?

22 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:32:37pm

The GOP: Doing everything it can to return this nation to the middle ages.

Vote GOP and we can do away with that silly notion of separating Church from State! What good did it ever do for you? How else can you have a king with the Divine Right to rule without it?

Vote GOP: And we can do away with all of that pesky and confusing science! Who wants to believe that they are also creatures that are part of and evolved from some hppie ecosystem! God put us here t rule over the Earth, not pretend that our lives are somehow intertwined with it! We didn’t come from some monkey! That degrades human life! We were formed out of dirt!

Vote GOP and we can do away with all this talk that brown and black people or those of heathen faiths are equal to us! Of course white is right! What good does thinking otherwise do? Vote GOP and we can return America to its roots where uppity folks knew their place!

Vote GOP and we can maintain our relationship with our good friends in Saudi Arabia! We won’t let some eco-treehuggers ruin our strategic relationships with good folks like them!

Vote GOP and we won’t have any liberated feminist women telling us what to do! How creatures with such small brains, and body parts made by Satan (like those dirty pillows) can think that they have the same abilities as men, or the ability to control their own bodies is beyond me!

Vote GOP and you can brutalize perverted homosexuals!

Vote GOP or else we will take our guns and impose our own high caliber vote you pinkos.

23 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:32:53pm

re: #19 b_sharp

How about teaching Evilution, in all its godless wonder, in church?

Why waste time teaching the idea that God is capable of performing miracles over millions of years using scientifically observable facts showing the brilliant subtlety of his creation when you can spend it organizing book burnings and picketing Doctor’s offices?

24 aagcobb  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:33:46pm

Any school district stupid enough to to follow these guys advice can look forward to paying a six or seven figure legal bill to the ACLU, as the Dover, Pa, school district did. Of course, these guys don’t care about throwing away taxpayers money-they are just pandering to their fundy base for votes.

25 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:35:31pm

re: #22 LudwigVanQuixote

“It is an unfortunate fact that every man who seeks to disseminate knowledge must contend not only against ignorance itself, but against false instruction as well. No sooner do we deem ourselves free from a particularly gross superstition, than we are confronted by some enemy to learning who would set aside all the intellectual progress of years, and plunge us back into the darkness of mediaeval disbelief.”

H.P. Lovecraft

In a letter to the Providence Evening News, September 5, 1914

26 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:35:48pm

re: #7 Obdicut

Yeah. Kick out the physicist and let in a creationist. That’ll help the country.

Morons.

GOP types really hate physicsts. We make them all sorts of military toys, but have the gall to think we should be moral about using them and all. We also go around thinking that years of training, hard work and study, coupled with the ability to do things like math makes us smart and all.

27 theheat  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:40:55pm

re: #26 LudwigVanQuixote

the ability to do things like math makes us smart and all.

Yeah, you math types. Elistists. Sheesh.
//

28 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:41:30pm

re: #27 theheat

Yeah, you math types. Elistists. Sheesh.
//

Can’t build a proper Ivory Tower without it.
;)

29 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:41:36pm

re: #19 b_sharp

How about teaching Evilution, in all its godless wonder, in church?

Ha, exactly though in fairness there are some churches that don’t see evolution as evil but of course those are the same ones that these types frown upon.

30 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:43:05pm

re: #18 iossarian

Because they are not very bright.

Which is not a reason to look down on them. But it is a reason to try to limit their influence on education policy.

Yeah I have to agree. It’s just frustrating as hell to see this view becomign more and more popular. And it’s not just opposition to evolution these people have, it often includes thanks to morons like Ben Stein comparing Darwin’s theories to the Nazis. Yeah guys believing that organisms adapt to their environments is just like putting people in gas chambers becuase of their religion or ethnic background.

31 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:43:29pm

re: #28 Varek Raith

Can’t build a proper Ivory Tower without it.
;)

Some of us are fine with skulls for the Skull Throne.

32 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:43:51pm

As to “equally valid theories,” an excerpt from my post on how science works:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

Definition: The scientific method is the four step process by which the scientific community collectively gathers and analyzes observations of the natural world in order to create tested, consistent, predictive and falsifiable models of natural phenomena. Further, this process demands that the final arbiter of any scientific dispute is observation.
In other words, if you believe that God made the universe, then the universe He set up, and hence Him, Himself is the final arbiter.

Before getting to the four steps, it is important to note that nowhere in this definition is there any room for democracy, personal preference or being “even handed” with the other side. In a scientific debate, once sufficient data comes in, there is always a winner and a loser.

Amongst professional scientists, these debates generally take two forms. Firstly, “does this really mean what you think it means?” Secondly, “did you really see what you think you saw?” Once those debates are settled, you have clarity. Both debates are closed by more data and/or better analysis. Eventually, the evidence mounts and consensus is reached. An open debate implies that there is, as yet, insufficient data, incomplete analysis or both. The final word always goes to the physical evidence itself. There is no “second place.” This is as it should be. Good scientists do not say that the universe is some way that it isn’t to please anyone, ever.

33 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:44:03pm

re: #25 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

“If religion were true, its followers would not try to bludgeon their young into an artificial conformity; but would merely insist on their unbending quest for truth, irrespective of artificial backgrounds or practical consequences.”

- H. P. Lovecraft

34 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:45:02pm

re: #31 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Some of us are fine with skulls for the Skull Throne.

That’s in my Fortress of Doom.

35 darthstar  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:45:16pm

OT: Someone set up a website designed specifically to scare Juan Williams.

Pictures of Muslims Wearing Things

36 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:46:39pm

re: #27 theheat

Yeah, you math types. Elistists. Sheesh.
//

Yeah we are so much more elite than the oil barons, coal barons, tobacco companies, Wall Street tycoons and CEOs who run the GOP.

Unlike average guys like W. Bush, we had to earn our way into good schools by having good grades!

37 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:46:42pm

re: #34 Varek Raith

That’s in my Fortress of Doom.

Poser.

38 Killgore Trout  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:46:59pm

re: #35 darthstar

OT: Someone set up a website designed specifically to scare Juan Williams.

Pictures of Muslims Wearing Things

lol

39 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:47:16pm

re: #35 darthstar

This one is fucking awesome!

40 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:47:35pm

re: #37 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Poser.

Zombie Guards, SEIZE HIM!

41 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:47:38pm

re: #35 darthstar

OT: Someone set up a website designed specifically to scare Juan Williams.

Pictures of Muslims Wearing Things

The Onion’s Our Dumb World wasn’t kidding, Queen Ramia of Jordan is one beautiful woman.

42 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:48:22pm

re: #18 iossarian

Because they are not very bright.

Which is not a reason to look down on them. But it is a reason to try to limit their influence on education policy.

Creationists aren’t creationists because they aren’t bright, but because they’ve invested heavily in an emotion based self image. They may have the smarts to understand the science, but the size of their investment does not allow for any change in that basis. The ability to rationalize as much as they do takes creativity and intelligence. When that is combined with an unhealthy dose of fear of unknown consequences, any idea, no matter how illogical, that supports their view will be accepted as gospel.

43 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:48:42pm

re: #40 Varek Raith

Zombie Guards, SEIZE HIM!

Alas, I have power walked to safety.

44 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:48:53pm

re: #18 iossarian

Because they are not very bright.

Which is not a reason to look down on them. But it is a reason to try to limit their influence on education policy.

We don’t let stupid people perform surgery either. Perhaps if we as a society understood that educating our young well is as important as getting sirgery right, we would be in a better place. But that sort of thought requires more intelligence than the typical GOP drone has.

45 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:49:45pm

re: #43 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Alas, I have power walked to safety.

Man, you take the fun outta everything!
/

46 Killgore Trout  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:49:46pm

The top left of Drudge is more than I can take. Ethno-cyborgs, Tea party under cyber-attack, MEcians sneaking across the border to vote, violent revolution. Bat shit insanity.

47 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:50:13pm

re: #42 b_sharp

Creationists aren’t creationists because they aren’t bright, but because they’ve invested heavily in an emotion based self image. They may have the smarts to understand the science, but the size of their investment does not allow for any change in that basis. The ability to rationalize as much as they do takes creativity and intelligence. When that is combined with an unhealthy dose of fear of unknown consequences, any idea, no matter how illogical, that supports their view will be accepted as gospel.

I hear you, but you have to admit, the vast majority of them that you meet are dumb as a bx of hammers.

48 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:50:31pm

re: #46 Killgore Trout

The top left of Drudge is more than I can take. Ethno-cyborgs, Tea party under cyber-attack, MEcians sneaking across the border to vote, violent revolution. Bat shit insanity.

WTF is an “Ethno cyborg”?!

49 Killgore Trout  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:51:31pm

re: #48 Varek Raith

WTF is an “Ethno cyborg”?!

I don’t know but it’s part of some secret outrageous funding from the NEA.

50 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:51:49pm

re: #48 Varek Raith

WTF is an “Ethno cyborg”?!

Yeesh, I just googled it.
:/

51 iossarian  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:52:03pm

re: #42 b_sharp

I think that’s true, but only up to a point. Maybe I can rephrase my original point, to chime better with yours, as: “Their intelligence is outweighed by their emotional investment in a religious worldview.”

Or, more pithily, they are less bright than they are devout*.

*Obviously many people are devout to a religious code that allows the intellect to drive such decisions.

52 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:52:07pm

re: #34 Varek Raith

That’s in my Fortress of Doom.

Did you say fortress of brooms?

I love curling.

53 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:52:21pm

re: #45 Varek Raith

Man, you take the fun outta everything!
/

Speaking of Zombie movies, just once, I want the highly trained commando teams to shoot one or two zombies before one of them says, “Hey, I think these are zombies. Head shots guys!” instead of blazing away on full auto and then complaining they’re almost out of ammo and wondering why the zombies won’t die.

54 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:52:34pm

re: #40 Varek Raith

Zombie Guards, SEIZE HIM!

Ok, a word to my Sith friend… Zombies sound good for guards… they are sort of intimidating, you can choke them with the force all you want to get your frustrations out etc… but they are rather easy to evade.

Why do you people have so much difficulty getting good help?

Ohhh it might be all the choking….

:)

55 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:53:45pm

The hostility towards science and scientists is part of what annoys me about the modern Republican party. You have people actually say that they base their opinions of global warming based off of what Rush Limbaugh says. Really, Limbaugh a man who has less education in the sciences than this humanties major/minor is where many of these people get their opinions of science from. I am I have to say not the best versed in the sciences so if I want to understand climate change I will defer to people who have spent years studying how the earth works rather than some right wing blowhard whose most famous contribution to the lexicon is the word “feminazi.”

56 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:53:56pm

re: #54 LudwigVanQuixote

;)

57 iossarian  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:54:19pm

re: #54 LudwigVanQuixote

Funniest line in a movie, ever, from the original “Bedazzled” (and I’m quoting from memory, so be tolerant). Dudley Moore is playing the part of Sin:

Sin: Terrible people I’ve got. Must be the wages.

58 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:54:49pm

re: #36 LudwigVanQuixote

Yeah we are so much more elite than the oil barons, coal barons, tobacco companies, Wall Street tycoons and CEOs who run the GOP.

Unlike average guys like W. Bush, we had to earn our way into good schools by having good grades!

That’s not hard work. You have to get dirt under your fingernails and dust in your eyes to claim you work hard.

Even for some people long out of high school, the hate of geeks is still strong.

59 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:55:51pm

re: #54 LudwigVanQuixote

Ok, a word to my Sith friend… Zombies sound good for guards… they are sort of intimidating, you can choke them with the force all you want to get your frustrations out etc… but they are rather easy to evade.

Why do you people have so much difficulty getting good help?

Ohhh it might be all the choking…

:)

More fun with zombies, remove internal organs and replace them with high explosives, and flasks of toxic gas before sending them out to fight the adventures.

My old D&D group hated me.

60 iossarian  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:56:31pm

re: #57 iossarian

Ack, Peter Cook plays the Devil, not Dudley Moore. And the line is something closer to:

Devil: Terrible sins I’ve got, must be the wages.

61 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:57:06pm

re: #51 iossarian

I think that’s true, but only up to a point. Maybe I can rephrase my original point, to chime better with yours, as: “Their intelligence is outweighed by their emotional investment in a religious worldview.”

Or, more pithily, they are less bright than they are devout*.

*Obviously many people are devout to a religious code that allows the intellect to drive such decisions.

Well said. However, the fact remains that most of them you meet - I mean the Pat Robertson/Beck viewing/Rush worshiping - creationist crowd, are dumb as a handful of dirt. Look at the people they put up for office!

People like O’Donnell or Palin or Inhofe or Barton or W. Bush are on the level of bald chimps - and they were voted for by folks who think that bunch is more clever than them.

62 darthstar  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:58:42pm

re: #50 Varek Raith

Yeesh, I just googled it.
:/

Well, to really dehumanize someone, you need to remove the idea that they’re actually human.

63 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:59:29pm

Creationism in the Classroom

Clip from the documentary ‘Dispatches - In God’s Name’ about the growing fundamentalist Christian lobby in the UK. Originally broadcast in May 2008.

64 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:00:32pm

re: #59 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

More fun with zombies, remove internal organs and replace them with high explosives, and flasks of toxic gas before sending them out to fight the adventures.

My old D&D group hated me.

LOL I ran a campaign once that was the EeeeeVVILE as in EEEEvil campaign.

The group got transported to Hollywood. The necromancer possessed and zombiefied Brittany Spears’ breast implants.

65 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:01:10pm

re: #47 LudwigVanQuixote

I hear you, but you have to admit, the vast majority of them that you meet are dumb as a bx of hammers.

If I talk to them about religion/science (the same thing to them), I eventually want to throttle them, but when I talk to them about - surprise, surprise - secular pursuits, many of them aren’t as dumb as I first thought. I have creationists in my extended family that aren’t stupid until the questions come to what they believe about science.

On the gripping hand, I have run into a shit load of dumb creationists online.

66 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:04:03pm

re: #54 LudwigVanQuixote

Ok, a word to my Sith friend… Zombies sound good for guards… they are sort of intimidating, you can choke them with the force all you want to get your frustrations out etc… but they are rather easy to evade.

Why do you people have so much difficulty getting good help?

Ohhh it might be all the choking…

:)

I’m choking - cough cough.

[Link: answers.yahoo.com…]

67 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:04:19pm

re: #65 b_sharp

Well, those are the exception.

The data would indicate that the norm - based on voting patterns and who is put up as a role model - is stupidity.

People like O’Donnell or Palin or Inhofe or Barton or W. Bush are on the level of bald chimps - and they were voted for by folks who think that bunch is more clever than them.

68 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:05:45pm

re: #61 LudwigVanQuixote

Well said. However, the fact remains that most of them you meet - I mean the Pat Robertson/Beck viewing/Rush worshiping - creationist crowd, are dumb as a handful of dirt. Look at the people they put up for office!

People like O’Donnell or Palin or Inhofe or Barton or W. Bush are on the level of bald chimps - and they were voted for by folks who think that bunch is more clever than them.

Well, when you put it that way…

69 darthstar  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:06:05pm

Defending Sharron Angle Fail

Ed: Laura Flanders, could this be a turning point in the campaign because there’s been so much talk about the Hispanic vote helping Harry Reid.

Flanders: Well, Sharron Angle’s turning right now. I mean she’s turning to try to say, “Listen, I’m not a racist. I’m very sympathetic. I care about the northern border, too. I’m here for all Nevadans.”


If she’s so concerned about the northern border, then why didn’t Angle use THIS picture in her illegal immigrant ad?

70 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:07:05pm

re: #46 Killgore Trout

The top left of Drudge is more than I can take. Ethno-cyborgs, Tea party under cyber-attack, MEcians sneaking across the border to vote, violent revolution. Bat shit insanity.

Drudge Report is to journalism as pocket lint is to the Large Hadron Collider.

71 subsailor68  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:07:06pm

re: #60 iossarian

Ack, Peter Cook plays the Devil, not Dudley Moore. And the line is something closer to:

Devil: Terrible sins I’ve got, must be the wages.

I loved Peter Cooke. Years and years ago (yeah, I’m old) I heard a story about him that I hope is true, although it’s probably a myth.

On his first, IIRC, visit to the U.S. he was filling out his customs paperwork and came across a question that read something like “Do you now, or have you ever, advocated the overthrow of the government of the United States?”

He wrote down: “Sole purpose of visit.”

That’s when he found out customs officials don’t have a sense of humor.

As I say, it’s probably a myth, but it sure sounds like something he’d have done.

72 Gus  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:07:20pm

OT

Fire at will. Serious troll.

73 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:07:22pm

re: #64 LudwigVanQuixote

LOL I ran a campaign once that was the EeeeVVILE as in EEEvil campaign.

The group got transported to Hollywood. The necromancer possessed and zombiefied Brittany Spears’ breast implants.

I had the sets of every D&D spell ever released and wasn’t afraid to unleash them on my group. Its amazing what a few low level spells could do with a little malicious thought.

74 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:08:46pm

re: #72 Gus 802

OT

Fire at will. Serious troll.

All white nations? The American Indians might need to chime in on that topic.

75 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:08:47pm

re: #63 Slumbering Behemoth

The full video (part one here) which that clip was taken from:

Dispatches - In God’s Name (1/4)

As the Human Fertilisation and Embryo Bill continues its way through Parliament, David Modell follows some of the leading members of Christian pressure groups as they attempt to win converts and convince MPs to base laws on Biblical beliefs.

Hard-line Christian activists are now mobilising believers in an attempt to make an impact on society nationally. Followers believe abortion and homosexuality should be illegal, there should be no sex before marriage and that the law of blasphemy should be strictly enforced.

They say the Bible is the definitive word of God and is literally true and are intolerant of other faiths. The film follows well funded and politically active Christian groups and shows them emerging as a significant voice in British politics.

76 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:10:13pm

re: #72 Gus 802

Comment has been terminated.

77 darthstar  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:10:20pm

re: #69 darthstar

Crap…this is the part that’s really offensive I meant to quote:

Ed: Heidi, should she apologize?

Heidi: Of course not! She shouldn’t apologize. First of all, Sharron Angle’s daughter-in-law is Mexican — Mexican, okay? Her grandkids are half-Latino…

Flanders: It doesn’t insulate you from stupidity and bias.

Heidi: No, no, no, that’s… wait a minute, wait a minute. The point is she doesn’t dislike Latinos. Secondly, you know who should be asking for an apology? The Asian kids who apparently should be concerned that the Hispanics think it’s insulting to be told that you look like an Asian.

Fuck.Me…sheesh.

78 darthstar  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:11:05pm

re: #72 Gus 802

OT

Fire at will. Serious troll.

I’m glad that user got blocked fast…I always liked Tony Curtis, may he rest in peace.

79 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:11:23pm

re: #76 lawhawk

Comment has been terminated.

I restored the comment - I’m going to leave those ones posted.

That asshole is in British Columbia.

80 darthstar  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:13:03pm

re: #79 Charles

I restored the comment - I’m going to leave those ones posted.

That asshole is in British Columbia.

Could you also disemvowel Sharron Angle’s defenders? In real life…not here. Thanks.

81 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:15:24pm

re: #80 darthstar

Their gibberish is already incomprehensible. No need to make it worse.

82 3eff Jeff  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:16:21pm

re: #69 darthstar

Maybe she’s more worried about Idaho?

83 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:20:28pm

re: #77 darthstar

Crap…this is the part that’s really offensive I meant to quote:

Fuck.Me…sheesh.

Sheesh. Angle fucks up and re: #77 darthstar

Crap…this is the part that’s really offensive I meant to quote:

Fuck.Me…sheesh.

Sheesh. Maybe they were upset because Angle insuitated that they were Asian and thus didn’t belong in a Latinos club. Seriously, I am no fan of Reid but I hope he beats her. This woman would be a disaster in the senate with her whacekd out views.

84 shutdown  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:20:40pm

I go to the gym for a while and look what happens: even more craziness. When the US falls farther and farther behind educational achievements being attained by other countries, I wonder whether the ID-ers will simply claim that it is all God’s plan for the US to become a cheap export platform for Chinese goods. If these folks start setting educational policy, the time is not far off when “Made in the USA” will have the same unfortunate patina of cheap manufacture that “Made in China” used to.

85 webevintage  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:22:42pm

re: #21 eclectic infidel

Notice the slight dig at unions?

School boards, unless they are lined with established scientists and science instructors, have no business dictating science curriculum.

So what is the real goal of pushing pseudo-science in the classroom? Do creationists really want kids to be taught that Jesus walked with dinosaurs, and to abandon critical thinking? To what end? Is it easier to ram religious fundamentalism down someone’s throat if they’ve been spoon fed BS in the classroom since day one? Seriously. Anyone care to address this?

I’ve pretty much decided that since “local” boards cannot be trusted to not be idiots then there just needs to be a national curriculum and an approved list of textbooks districts can buy and to hell with local control.

86 researchok  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:24:58pm

re: #22 LudwigVanQuixote

I hated to agree with you on that one.

87 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:28:30pm

re: #84 imp_62

Sadder still, our kooks here in the U.S. are emboldening and supplying the kooks in the U.K. with “educational” material.

88 theheat  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:28:47pm

re: #84 imp_62

There are plenty of fundie fine craftsmen, truth be told. They take pride in their handmade goods and God, but not in that order. Go to any Traditional Western exhibition, for example. Take a look at some of the NASCAR builders. Fine craftsmen, lots of fundies. In between industry-specific posts, their forums are filled with ID, climate change denial, and Limbaugh and Palin-inspired anti-Obama rhetoric. Then, take the ag industry. No, not the scientists that develop “things” for farming, but the grass roots growers, farmers, and animal breeders. Fundie central aka Real Americans™.

Sure, Russia may send a rocket into space, but ‘mericans build damn fine oak tables.

89 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:29:58pm

re: #86 researchok

I hated to agree with you on that one.

Like I said, for those sane folks who used to be Republican, your party left you. Whatever you think it is or was, it isn’t anymore. They despise you as a Rino and folks with brains were purged from and ostracized by the party a long time ago.

I repeat, it is not that the Dems are great. They are weak, disorganized, incapable of acting together for the common good, generally gutless and riddled with useless career politicians like Reid.

However, in comparison to the neo-fascist, hypocritically bible thumping, racist, anti-American GOP, the Dems are saints - each and every one.

90 theheat  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:30:18pm

re: #85 webevintage

You mean commie control? What about states rights?! Oh nos!
//

91 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:34:47pm

re: #83 HappyWarrior

Sheesh. Angle fucks up and re: #77 darthstar

Sheesh. Maybe they were upset because Angle insuitated that they were Asian and thus didn’t belong in a Latinos club. Seriously, I am no fan of Reid but I hope he beats her. This woman would be a disaster in the senate with her whacekd out views.

See my 89.

On a separate note… I wonder if the Rodent thinks he looks Chinese and if it bothers him that Chinese people aren’t white either, or that people like Angle and the teabags will never see him as white, no matter how much he screams somehow he is.

How any black, Hispanic, gay or woman can be a member of the GOP is beyond me. I suppose there is some reality to Stockholm syndrome. I suppose some think that they can get their own bread buttered and screw their own people (which is a very GOP way of doing things come to think of it). So let me rephrase how any sane or moral black, Hispanic, gay or woman can be a part of the GOP seems impossible to me.

A priori, they mark themselves as the worst sorts of self haters or traitors.

92 shutdown  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:35:22pm

re: #88 theheat

There are plenty of fundie fine craftsmen, truth be told. They take pride in their handmade goods and God, but not in that order. Go to any Traditional Western exhibition, for example. Take a look at some of the NASCAR builders. Fine craftsmen, lots of fundies. In between industry-specific posts, their forums are filled with ID, climate change denial, and Limbaugh and Palin-inspired anti-Obama rhetoric. Then, take the ag industry. No, not the scientists that develop “things” for farming, but the grass roots growers, farmers, and animal breeders. Fundie central aka Real Americans™.

Sure, Russia may send a rocket into space, but ‘mericans build damn fine oak tables.

Missing (?) sarc tags aside, these outstanding craftsmen and mechanics benefited from an unadulterated school science curriculum, which they would now like to withhold from the next generation. And it will be interesting to see what they are building and crafting when the knowledge required to design develop the tools and machines they use to ply their trade is no longer resident in this country.

93 theheat  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:36:19pm

re: #89 LudwigVanQuixote

And yet… plenty of longtime GOPs are going to ignore the crazy, because they’re convinced Obama, and his party, are the anti-Christ. They don’t give a shit about ID, abortion, gays, theocracy, science, or anything else. They still buy into the idea the GOPs mean lower taxes and more jobs, and they’ll fall for that line until the day they die.

94 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:37:43pm

re: #75 Slumbering Behemoth

holy. fuck. @~1:30…

“The bottom line is I’ve got twenty grand children, and I don’t want the boys being told that it’s okay to get shit on your penis, ‘cuz that’s what it’s about.”

95 researchok  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:40:18pm

re: #89 LudwigVanQuixote

Like I said, for those sane folks who used to be Republican, your party left you. Whatever you think it is or was, it isn’t anymore. They despise you as a Rino and folks with brains were purged from and ostracized by the party a long time ago.

I repeat, it is not that the Dems are great. They are weak, disorganized, incapable of acting together for the common good, generally gutless and riddled with useless career politicians like Reid.

However, in comparison to the neo-fascist, hypocritically bible thumping, racist, anti-American GOP, the Dems are saints - each and every one.

Stop being so rational.
/

96 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:41:09pm

re: #72 Gus 802

re: #79 Charles

I’m glad the comments, even if repulsive are still up. I should like to use them as tragic evidence the next time someone claims we aren’t seeing Nazism rising.

97 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:41:14pm

I really don’t know why people actually believe the GOP will make the government smaller. Reagan and the Bushes didn’t so why on earth should we believe that these ones will? Most true small government conservatives are eitehr long gone or not in the GOP. NOw, we have a lot of Republican candidates who cliam to be that but I see nothing about them that suggests they are. Christine O’Donnell is fixated with pornography, Sharron Angle is totally wacko, and Joe Miller if he can be understood wants us to build a wall like the Berlin Wall.

98 theheat  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:41:24pm

re: #92 imp_62

I hear what you’re saying, but I will say a fair amount of these people are the result of fundie homeskooling, and are, themselves, homeschooling the next generation of fundies.

You don’t need to acknowledge climate change or evolution to weld, breed cattle, grow corn, build furniture, or tool leather. This is why I’m swamped with the fundie/teparty mentality in my line of work. They wear their fundieness like a badge of honor.

99 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:41:53pm

Is Homo sapiens plumbeus a new subspecies, or has it been around for while and just lately stumbled out of the closet?

100 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:43:05pm

re: #96 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #79 Charles

I’m glad the comments, even if repulsive are still up. I should like to use them as tragic evidence the next time someone claims we aren’t seeing Nazism rising.

In British Columbia even. Weirod.

101 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:43:44pm

re: #93 theheat

And yet… plenty of longtime GOPs are going to ignore the crazy, because they’re convinced Obama, and his party, are the anti-Christ. They don’t give a shit about ID, abortion, gays, theocracy, science, or anything else. They still buy into the idea the GOPs mean lower taxes and more jobs, and they’ll fall for that line until the day they die.

Which is also insane. Most of them had their taxes lowered by Obama and the Dems, and one look at the spending history of both parties over the last 60 years show that the GOP spends much more than the Dems.

It is insane because many of them could really use health insurance. Why would anyone fight for the right of insurance corporations to take more money away from doctors and patients?

It is insanity and innumeracy.

It’s what you get when people can’t be bothered to do basic math also.

102 shutdown  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:44:17pm

re: #93 theheat

And yet… plenty of longtime GOPs are going to ignore the crazy, because they’re convinced Obama, and his party, are the anti-Christ. They don’t give a shit about ID, abortion, gays, theocracy, science, or anything else. They still buy into the idea the GOPs mean lower taxes and more jobs, and they’ll fall for that line until the day they die.

Once they queue up in the line for “more Obama anti-Christ, please” they are no longer ignoring the crazy, they are one of them. The pursuit of power has finally reached the point where it is no longer about anything but the power. Doesn’t matter what you say or do to get there; heck, it doesn’t even really matter what you say or do once you are there. Grab power, perpetuate power, make fools feel empowered by obviating the need to think critically about the world… And watch the country go down the drain for want of real leadership and a plan to actually improve lives. It’s much easier to make people think that what other’s have achieved is wrong and godless, than to work at helping them match or exceed these achievements. Science? Hogwash. All we need is the word of God. Equality? No mention of that in Scripture. Gays? Abominations. Etc. etc.

103 scienceisreal  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:44:46pm
104 3eff Jeff  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:45:39pm

re: #94 Slumbering Behemoth

Not another one. At least he wasn’t addressing the New Hampshire state legislature.

105 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:45:58pm

re: #101 LudwigVanQuixote


Why would anyone fight for the right of insurance corporations to take more money away from doctors and patients?

Too much talk radio and not nearly enough personal research?

106 Jadespring  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:46:58pm

re: #100 Slumbering Behemoth

In British Columbia even. Weirod.

Nah. There’s little pockets of them in every province. They just don’t have much of a voice. They give it a go now an then…like a bunch planned a rally in BC some months back but never showed up once the word got out and whole bunch of other people decided to show up for a counter rally. They chickened out I guess.

They mostly just spew on the net and I guess meet and bellyache about the state of world and everyone else in a basement somewhere.

107 researchok  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:48:00pm

re: #106 Jadespring

Nah. There’s little pockets of them in every province. They just don’t have much of a voice. They give it a go now an then…like a bunch planned a rally in BC some months back but never showed up once the word got out and whole bunch of other people decided to show up for a counter rally. They chickened out I guess.

They mostly just spew on the net and I guess meet and bellyache about the state of world and everyone else in a basement somewhere.

Doesn’t Canada have/had the Rhinoceros party?

They were a real assortment…

108 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:48:57pm

re: #106 Jadespring

Wow. Even your nazis are pussies.
/Just Kidding! Just Kidding! Ow!

109 acacia  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:49:48pm

Forget evolution v. creationism for a moment. What IS the level of government that should have the most influence on public education - national, state or local? I’d be curious to know what people think.

110 Jadespring  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:50:29pm

re: #107 researchok

Doesn’t Canada have/had the Rhinoceros party?

They were a real assortment…

Yeah. I’m not sure if they are around anymore. They didn’t have anything to do with these types though. Most that I knew off were really hilarious. The ones that showed up at debate I went to were quite smart and used lots of satire and humor. They usually got the most applause too.

111 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:50:31pm

re: #101 LudwigVanQuixote

Here’s something sad to think about.

I’ve just been reading some more Sapolsky, and he makes a very good case that improving access to health care for the poor will not matter, because their number one health problem is that they’re poor— and that they’re made to feel poor, and made to feel that being poor is shameful, bad, and dangerous.

Here’s a good bit on it.

[Link: books.google.com…]

112 celticdragon  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:50:33pm

re: #72 Gus 802

OT

Fire at will. Serious troll.

Good God. Aryan Nation Troll.

113 theheat  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:51:08pm

re: #101 LudwigVanQuixote

They won’t take the time to do the basic math, they simply follow the party mantra. If the GOP says it’s true, then it’s true. I know many, many lifetime GOPs that honestly believe the country has gone communist since Obama, though they can’t articulate anything other than say “health care” (not in any type of context, of course) or “death panels.” That seems to be their only basis for believing the country going communist. Of course, they hear the GOP pundits say it enough times, they accept it as fact.

They feel voting for the GOP is voting for democracy, lower taxes, national security, and job creation. Not one of those reasons can be substantiated.

114 freetoken  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:51:18pm

re: #109 acacia

Forget evolution v. creationism for a moment.

If only that were possible in the real world…

115 shutdown  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:51:27pm

re: #98 theheat

You don’t need to acknowledge climate change or evolution to weld, breed cattle, grow corn, build furniture, or tool leather…

That is a temporary state of affairs. When the climate shifts to the point that the only thing they are farming is dust-bunnies and boll-weevils, it will be too late. I used to know someone whose basic thinking that his car didn’t need the rain forest to run, so what did it matter if it was all cut down? There is no arguing with people like that, but it does not relieve us of the obligation to continue to advocate and educate. And the empirical evidence supporting AGW will become ever greater, so maybe we will be able to save these folks despite themselves.

“Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son”

116 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:51:31pm

I hate BC Nazis.

117 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:51:45pm

re: #103 scienceisreal

Family Guy on Creationism

heh jesusaurus rex.

118 theheat  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:51:51pm

re: #110 Jadespring

I don’t trust the states. Look at Texas. I’m going with federal.

119 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:52:18pm

re: #107 researchok

Doesn’t Canada have/had the Rhinoceros party?

They were a real assortment…

They were great. I voted for them when I was in university because they wanted to build a bridge from Vancouver to Japan.

120 SpaceJesus  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:52:42pm

re: #109 acacia


A mix of all three.

121 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:53:32pm

re: #108 Slumbering Behemoth

Wow. Even your nazis are pussies.
/Just Kidding! Just Kidding! Ow!

And yours are dicks.

You know what happens when you get pussies and dicks together.

Fuck yah!

122 acacia  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:54:31pm

re: #114 freetoken

I raise it because the “talking point” is an ends justifies the means type of approach. In other words if the national governement was more creationist oriented than the local government, you can bet that in their eyes it would be better to have a national system.

123 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:54:39pm

re: #121 b_sharp

And yours are dicks.

You know what happens when you get pussies and dicks together.

Fuck yah!

Hermaphrodites?

124 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:55:05pm

re: #111 Obdicut

Here’s something sad to think about.

I’ve just been reading some more Sapolsky, and he makes a very good case that improving access to health care for the poor will not matter, because their number one health problem is that they’re poor— and that they’re made to feel poor, and made to feel that being poor is shameful, bad, and dangerous.

Here’s a good bit on it.

[Link: books.google.com…]

Excellent point.

It does not address how the poor could be convinced that the plutocrats who put them down are somehow on their side though.

125 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:56:03pm

re: #115 imp_62

That is a temporary state of affairs. When the climate shifts to the point that the only thing they are farming is dust-bunnies and boll-weevils, it will be too late. I used to know someone whose basic thinking that his car didn’t need the rain forest to run, so what did it matter if it was all cut down? There is no arguing with people like that, but it does not relieve us of the obligation to continue to advocate and educate. And the empirical evidence supporting AGW will become ever greater, so maybe we will be able to save these folks despite themselves.

“Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son”

Amen.

126 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:57:05pm

re: #10 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

First, there was nothing.

Then God said let there be light.

There was still nothing, but now you could see it.

If you were there, which you weren’t. Because there was nothing but light. But that was all good. He saw that.

Oddly enough, that’s about right. In the Big Bang beginning, there was a lot of light. Since then, there’s been less and less. Now, politics is more about heat than about light.

Not to make light of it. That’s His job.

127 Jadespring  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:57:42pm

re: #108 Slumbering Behemoth

Wow. Even your nazis are pussies.
/Just Kidding! Just Kidding! Ow!

Hee. Well there have been times when groups do get excited and quite probably did some not so good things. I kid but some are really not nice people. Spent some time in a few face-offs with them in the past. It was quite vile.

I found that particular groups achillies heel though. They were shouting horrible things at the people (non-whites) they were protesting. No use yelling back that just gets them going.

However start singing about their little penises and erectile function….and bam they lost their plot and rhythmn. It was quite hilarious.

128 researchok  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:58:35pm

re: #119 b_sharp

They were great. I voted for them when I was in university because they wanted to build a bridge from Vancouver to Japan.

That would qualify as ‘shovel ready’.

/

129 theheat  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:59:42pm

re: #115 imp_62

They’re also blessed with being extremely short sighted. Deep down, a lot of them are end-times peeps, so the really aren’t forward thinkers. More of them have simply adopted a dominionist attitude; that it’s all here for the taking, and God will make sure they’re taken care of, and they never run out of clean air, water, food, etc. Climate change and resource management is just liberal tree hugger talk.

130 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:59:44pm

Theoretically, it should be parents. The educational system of America is actually founded on people seeking out education for their children. The early colonists sent their children to what schooling they could. The pioneers got together and formed those schools out on the prairie. When America wanted to give the WWII vets a gift for their service, they wrote the GI bill.

However, we have some people wanting to step backward into superstition and ignorance, which is sad. The early pioneers knew they wanted the best education their children could get (within the constraints of what the community could offer; they were realists). Now people who praise the pioneers nevertheless seem to fear that education would destroy their children’s faith, which it can only do if your faith is so rigid it can’t stand a few questions.

131 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:00:10pm

re: #125 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #115 imp_62

That is a temporary state of affairs. When the climate shifts to the point that the only thing they are farming is dust-bunnies and boll-weevils, it will be too late. I used to know someone whose basic thinking that his car didn’t need the rain forest to run, so what did it matter if it was all cut down? There is no arguing with people like that, but it does not relieve us of the obligation to continue to advocate and educate. And the empirical evidence supporting AGW will become ever greater, so maybe we will be able to save these folks despite themselves.

“Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son”

Amen.

I’ll see your amen and raise you a ramen.

132 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:00:14pm

re: #127 Jadespring

However start singing about their little penises and erectile function…and bam they lost their plot and rhythmn. It was quite hilarious.

Ha! Would love to hear that song.

133 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:00:35pm

re: #130 EmmmieG

This was in answer to 109.

134 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:01:04pm

re: #126 lostlakehiker

If you were there, which you weren’t. Because there was nothing but light. But that was all good. He saw that.

Oddly enough, that’s about right. In the Big Bang beginning, there was a lot of light. Since then, there’s been less and less. Now, politics is more about heat than about light.

Not to make light of it. That’s His job.

This post made me dizzy.

135 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:02:18pm

One would think that school kids are smart enough to make up their own minds when they see more than one explanation for things.

This whole debate is built on a disrespect for the intelligence of young people.

I am not young anymore, but were I, what amounts to the shouting in my ear by both sides of this debate would earn my huge scorn.

136 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:02:18pm

re: #98 theheat

De-Elitification

137 shutdown  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:03:17pm

re: #124 LudwigVanQuixote

Excellent point.

It does not address how the poor could be convinced that the plutocrats who put them down are somehow on their side though.

They don’t convince them of that. They get the poor to believe that God wanted the system to be the way it is, and that their lot is not improving because - and this is the perverse part - of the efforts being undertaken to make things better for the poor. These undertakings are the work of Godless Scientists and Even More Godless Socialists, and once they are stopped and undone, God will be able to work through his chosen politicians to make everything better.

138 bratwurst  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:04:29pm

re: #135 Ojoe

One would think that school kids are smart enough to make up their own minds when they see more than one explanation for things.

Teach the controversy then? No thanks. Any other myths totally at odds with science you are willing to bring into schools?

139 freetoken  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:05:13pm

re: #122 acacia

Well… American history would suggest that local school boards are notoriously fickle. State influence on schools has been greatly variable, but pretty much deals with money and certification requirements. In the US at least, large social changes have been in the 21st century driven at a national policy level.

140 wrenchwench  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:05:20pm

re: #126 lostlakehiker

If you were there, which you weren’t. Because there was nothing but light. But that was all good. He saw that.

Oddly enough, that’s about right. In the Big Bang beginning, there was a lot of light. Since then, there’s been less and less. Now, politics is more about heat than about light.

Not to make light of it. That’s His job.

Actually, there was no Bang. Sound can’t travel in a vacuum. So it was really a Big Flash.

141 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:06:04pm

re: #115 imp_62

That is a temporary state of affairs. When the climate shifts to the point that the only thing they are farming is dust-bunnies and boll-weevils, it will be too late. I used to know someone whose basic thinking that his car didn’t need the rain forest to run, so what did it matter if it was all cut down? There is no arguing with people like that, but it does not relieve us of the obligation to continue to advocate and educate. And the empirical evidence supporting AGW will become ever greater, so maybe we will be able to save these folks despite themselves.

“Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son”

It’s a way to go through life in the fast lane, i.e. get to the ending quick.

Our ignorance of AGW is a self-correcting problem. The worse we make it, the worse it will hit us over the head with the evidence. Three of the smallest ice covers recorded, just in the last four years.

Ignorance of evolution is not a self-correcting problem. It’s entirely possible that a belief that one is special, made special, boosts self confidence and thereby indirectly boosts the number of offspring you’ll bring into the world.

Lizards! Aux bedrooms! Only you can prevent a demographic forest fire of ignorance. Why you? Because you’re special!

///

142 shutdown  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:06:24pm

re: #129 theheat

They’re also blessed with being extremely short sighted. Deep down, a lot of them are end-times peeps, so the really aren’t forward thinkers. More of them have simply adopted a dominionist attitude; that it’s all here for the taking, and God will make sure they’re taken care of, and they never run out of clean air, water, food, etc. Climate change and resource management is just liberal tree hugger talk.

Stewardship is just so much more difficult than ecological pillage. If God wanted the air to be clean, He would not have allowed us to invent internal combustion. If He wanted us to be immune against disease, we would be so, naturally.
It is attitudes such as these that make it distasteful for me when the fundamentalists speak of a “Judeo-Christian” ethic. Judaism really does not have this fatalistic end-time component.

143 researchok  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:06:28pm

Top Goldman trader: The market is unbelievably overbought

John Noyce, Goldman’s arguably best technician, in his weekly Charts that Matter, has released one (among many) interesting observation on just how overbought the market currently is, and more specifically just how desperate the velocity of the pick up in the stocks since August has been…

… Specifically, by looking at where the S&P is relative to its 55 DMA, Noyce notes that every time the market has gotten to above 5% its trailing average, it has always…

Enjoy the weekend…..

144 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:06:40pm

re: #137 imp_62

They don’t convince them of that. They get the poor to believe that God wanted the system to be the way it is, and that their lot is not improving because - and this is the perverse part - of the efforts being undertaken to make things better for the poor. These undertakings are the work of Godless Scientists and Even More Godless Socialists, and once they are stopped and undone, God will be able to work through his chosen politicians to make everything better.

And yet, Moses and Jesus would seem to agree that you need to take care of the poor and not be a greedy, heartless bastard.

This is one of the core hypocrisies of the GOP that sickens me the most.

Caring for others is a commandment. It isn’t optional.

145 researchok  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:07:54pm

re: #144 LudwigVanQuixote

And yet, Moses and Jesus would seem to agree that you need to take care of the poor and not be a greedy, heartless bastard.

This is one of the core hypocrisies of the GOP that sickens me the most.

Caring for others is a commandment. It isn’t optional.

We can discuss what that means and how best to do it, but in the end, we are ‘our brother’s keeper’.

146 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:08:07pm

re: #140 wrenchwench

Actually there wasn’t light at the first either, so it is not a flash either.

It is so strange that it turns out to be hard to describe.

147 theheat  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:08:21pm

re: #137 imp_62

Prosperity Christians. (Or Amway.)

148 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:08:42pm

re: #144 LudwigVanQuixote

And yet, Moses and Jesus would seem to agree that you need to take care of the poor and not be a greedy, heartless bastard.

This is one of the core hypocrisies of the GOP that sickens me the most.

Caring for others is a commandment. It isn’t optional.

What they say is that Christ didn’t demand that we use the government to help the poor. Which is kinda stupid since they want to use the government to enforce other parts of their morality but not to help people. And also many of these same people strongly admire Ayn Rand who not only looked down on the idea of charity but even called it immoral.

149 freetoken  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:08:57pm

re: #143 researchok

DOOM!!*

Equities have been for many years an alternative to gambling, especially where casinos are outlawed.

Yeah, it does seem like there is a lot of vapor driving the US equity markets.

*BUY GOLD!!

150 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:10:04pm

re: #138 bratwurst

Teach the controversy then? No thanks. Any other myths totally at odds with science you are willing to bring into schools?

I’ve never envied the teacher who got to teach Leda & the Swan. Ahem. Yeah, keep decorum in that bunch of teenagers.

I was actually thinking of dragging Harry Potter into my astronomy class. Lots of the names are astrological names—Sirius, Bellatrix, Andromeda, etc. However, I have two families that don’t “do” Harry Potter, which I think is silly. (My kids know the difference between fiction and nonfiction pretty well, I think.)

151 researchok  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:11:01pm

re: #149 freetoken

DOOM!!*

Equities have been for many years an alternative to gambling, especially where casinos are outlawed.

Yeah, it does seem like there is a lot of vapor driving the US equity markets.

*BUY GOLD!!

If Noyce is right, we’re going to get hammered.

And the RE market will take yet another hit.

152 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:11:18pm

re: #109 acacia

Forget evolution v. creationism for a moment. What IS the level of government that should have the most influence on public education - national, state or local? I’d be curious to know what people think.

Rather than picking a particular teir of government to be involved, it would be better to come up with a standard of competence for those charged with “running the schools” and enforce that. In Texas, for instance, aaaanyone can wind up on any local school board, and on the State Board of Education. There is no requirement for a particular education level, of having any experience in administering education, of developmental psychology, or even of being able to reliably and consistently find one’s ass with a GPS and a Sherpa guide. Fix that, and then I don’t give a shit whether it’s controlled locally, nationally, or whatever.

153 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:11:29pm

re: #146 Ojoe

Actually there wasn’t light at the first either, so it is not a flash either.

It is so strange that it turns out to be hard to describe.

Where was the kaboom? There should have been an earth-shattering ka-boom!

Image: Marvinthemartain.jpg

154 shutdown  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:11:31pm

re: #135 Ojoe

One would think that school kids are smart enough to make up their own minds when they see more than one explanation for things.

This whole debate is built on a disrespect for the intelligence of young people.

I am not young anymore, but were I, what amounts to the shouting in my ear by both sides of this debate would earn my huge scorn.

Teaching. Look it up. Your argument does not stand up to any kind of scrutiny. If I present two competing theories to someone without the tools to prove or disprove them, I am in dereliction of my duty towards these young minds. There is no way for a child to determine whether the moon landing was a myth or a fact; whether the earth is round, or whether carbon emissions and other pollutants are harmful to environment and health. You are essentially advocating telling kids to go figure it out from scratch: I respect your intelligence. Go figure out the atomic weight of Hydrogen. Kthxbai.

Why?

155 RadicalModerate  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:11:35pm

re: #75 Slumbering Behemoth

The full video (part one here) which that clip was taken from:

Dispatches - In God’s Name (1/4)


[Video]

The BBC did an excellent program on the rise of creationism in the US classrooms a few years back, part of which included filming of a science class where it was part of the curriculum. By the way, make a special note of one of the students’ dutiful dog-whistle comment at the end:

156 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:11:47pm

re: #138 bratwurst

Teach the controversy then? No thanks. Any other myths totally at odds with science you are willing to bring into schools?

Any other thing you think kids shouldn’t hear?

They are going to hear it all, they are not kept in school forever.

Assuming schools would teach how to think critically, one would not have to worry about the conclusions that the students might reach.

157 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:12:19pm

re: #127 Jadespring

Hee. Well there have been times when groups do get excited and quite probably did some not so good things. I kid but some are really not nice people. Spent some time in a few face-offs with them in the past. It was quite vile.

I found that particular groups achillies heel though. They were shouting horrible things at the people (non-whites) they were protesting. No use yelling back that just gets them going.

However start singing about their little penises and erectile function…and bam they lost their plot and rhythmn. It was quite hilarious.

The essence of racism is always fear and overcompensation for an inferiority complex.

Nazi scum and teabags know that they are basically useless, uneducated trash who have led lives of failure. They are the out of work truck drivers, unpromoted wage slaves and continual failures of America - or wherever. Because facing their lack of accomplishment is so painful, they of course, blame others. That is why they hate elites so much and why they are so easily afraid of losing what little they have.

158 shutdown  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:12:46pm

re: #131 b_sharp

I’ll see your amen and raise you a ramen.

My son has converted to this faith lol.

159 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:12:54pm

re: #135 Ojoe

One would think that school kids are smart enough to make up their own minds when they see more than one explanation for things.

This whole debate is built on a disrespect for the intelligence of young people.

I am not young anymore, but were I, what amounts to the shouting in my ear by both sides of this debate would earn my huge scorn.

Bullshit.

Kids believe what they’ve been taught. Its our responsibility to teach them, to the best of our knowledge, what is factual, what has evidence to support it and what physical ‘truths’ affect us.

Throwing in something that has no evidence to support it and treating it as equal does them no favours.

160 freetoken  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:13:23pm

re: #151 researchok

Commercial real estate is still on the downswing in many places.

Here in SoCal the housing market is only stable because the banks control the stream of foreclosed houses that come onto the market. In up until 2005 the housing prices were seriously inflated in a bubble the extent of which we are still coming to terms.

161 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:13:30pm

re: #154 imp_62

There is no way for a child to determine whether the moon landing was a myth or a fact; whether the earth is round, or whether carbon emissions and other pollutants are harmful to environment and health.

In my opinion you vastly under rate the intelligence of children.

162 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:14:50pm

re: #159 b_sharp

I was taught many things as a child, and I did not believe the half of them from the git-go.

163 freetoken  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:15:24pm

re: #156 Ojoe

Any other thing you think kids shouldn’t hear?

I think children ought to hear about creationism, in all it’s forms - Christian, Islam, etc. Then the also ought to hear about why those ideas are so daffy and have been proven wrong over and over, and how antiquated the neolithic/bronze-age thinking really is.

164 bratwurst  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:16:01pm

re: #156 Ojoe

Any other thing you think kids shouldn’t hear?

They are going to hear it all, they are not kept in school forever.

Assuming schools would teach how to think critically, one would not have to worry about the conclusions that the students might reach.

There are quite a few things I don’t believe belong in public schools, most of them relate to promoting religion. It’s one of these newfangled “establishment clause” kinda things.

165 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:16:06pm

re: #148 HappyWarrior

What they say is that Christ didn’t demand that we use the government to help the poor. Which is kinda stupid since they want to use the government to enforce other parts of their morality but not to help people. And also many of these same people strongly admire Ayn Rand who not only looked down on the idea of charity but even called it immoral.

I seem to recall Christ saying something about rendering unto Caesar, but that isn’t my book.

However, the OT, which Christians like that claim to see as holy too, is incredibly clear about the need to care for the poor, to clothe the naked, to feed the hungry and to uphold the rights of the widow and the orphan. It is also very clear about the right of the king to collect taxes and the duty of the crown to clothe the naked, to feed the hungry and to uphold the rights of the widow and the orphan.

I guess those verses got forgotten along with the one about needles and rich people getting into heaven from the NT.

166 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:16:41pm

re: #161 Ojoe

In my opinion you vastly under rate the intelligence of children.

As someone who spends most of her time in the company of children—they are capable of jaw-dropping stupidity and brilliant creativity and brilliance. Often in the same child. Often in the same hour.

167 shutdown  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:16:55pm

re: #161 Ojoe

In my opinion you vastly under rate the intelligence of children.

In my opinion you are vastly overrating your own. Sorry to be snarky, but your position on this issue is untenable. You would fill heads with undifferentiated nonsense, and expect children to somehow identify truth and fact. Is that how you learned? Not being told what is right, what is wrong, what is true, what is false?

Intelligence is the faculty to learn, not some magical font of knowledge.

168 researchok  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:17:17pm

re: #160 freetoken

Commercial real estate is still on the downswing in many places.

Here in SoCal the housing market is only stable because the banks control the stream of foreclosed houses that come onto the market. In up until 2005 the housing prices were seriously inflated in a bubble the extent of which we are still coming to terms.

There is a lot of talk here too (NC) about nervous commercial real estate owners/groups/partnerships/REITS, etc.- and we’re in better economic shape than most. The Raleigh/Triangle/RTP is growing.

The market here has a big inventory and it isn’t being absorbed as fast as usual.

Even with all the sunny skies, we’re going to take a hit.

FL, NV and you guys in CA have been the canary. We’re nervous. Only the buyers are happy.

169 shutdown  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:17:32pm

re: #164 bratwurst

There are quite a few things I don’t believe belong in public schools, most of them relate to promoting religion. It’s one of these newfangled “establishment clause” kinda things.

Commie pinko wrong-football-club-supporting liberal.
//

170 engineer cat  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:17:40pm

re: #144 LudwigVanQuixote

And yet, Moses and Jesus would seem to agree that you need to take care of the poor and not be a greedy, heartless bastard.

This is one of the core hypocrisies of the GOP that sickens me the most.

Caring for others is a commandment. It isn’t optional.

over the centuries many elaborate mechanisms have been developed that enable people to ignore this part of jesus’ teaching

i once read a very erudite book on the jewish intellectual climate of 1st century judea, by a christian intellectual. when he got to the subject of the sermon on the mount, he dismissed it in one sentence by saying “it is so tiresome when people use this speech to represent jesus as some kind of primitive marxist”

171 shutdown  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:18:26pm

re: #161 Ojoe

Obdicut: Now you see, Ojoe is a troll. See what I mean?

172 Jadespring  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:18:35pm

re: #156 Ojoe

Any other thing you think kids shouldn’t hear?

They are going to hear it all, they are not kept in school forever.

Assuming schools would teach how to think critically, one would not have to worry about the conclusions that the students might reach.

I don’t have a problem with creationism or even ID being taught about in school in a subject that it belongs in like say a religion, philosophy, history, social studies, anthropology class or even some sort of contempory issues type class. . There it’s not a huge problem. In a science class like biology though? Complete waste of the students time. It’s not science. Science classes should be for science. Might as well do some units on astrology, phrenology or alchemy if that is the case.

173 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:18:49pm

re: #165 LudwigVanQuixote

I seem to recall Christ saying something about rendering unto Caesar, but that isn’t my book.

However, the OT, which Christians like that claim to see as holy too, is incredibly clear about the need to care for the poor, to clothe the naked, to feed the hungry and to uphold the rights of the widow and the orphan. It is also very clear about the right of the king to collect taxes and the duty of the crown to clothe the naked, to feed the hungry and to uphold the rights of the widow and the orphan.

I guess those verses got forgotten along with the one about needles and rich people getting into heaven from the NT.

Oh that doesn’t surprise me. The funniest part if seeing clowns like Glenn Beck scorn social justice programs. They say Christ wasn’t a socialist or communist, okay I usualyl respond but the attempt to make Christ in to a capitalist is alos laugable especially in light of what he taught and the fact that capitalism was born long after his death. It’s just nonsense. And the Ayn Rand admiring devoutly religious people amuse me deeply.

174 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:18:49pm

re: #170 engineer dog

See my 165.

175 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:18:51pm

re: #8 BishopX

When they can explain how putting blood vessels in front of my retina is an intelligent design choice, then I’ll start listening. Given my eyes, throat and testicles I see absolutely no evidence of intelligence in my design.

But what is intelligence? If you want a skinnerian definition, any entity or system that gets better at advancing its own interests or its own survival, over time, that arrives at better solutions to the challenges it faces, has some sort of intelligence.

All your parts are made to a design that’s working pretty well. We are an eminently successful species, part of an eminently successful Class, etc.

Throwing possible answers up at random, letting reality winnow out the losers, and letting reproductive differentials multiply the winners, is an intelligence of sorts. Brains run trial solutions through a neuron net, examining answers [fight? flee?]. But this other process runs trial solutions through a winnowing net, and it too arrives at answers. In some sense, this IS intelligence. And if you still don’t agree, answer this: if we’re so smart, and bacteria are so dumb, how come they still win from time to time?

Because they evolve new answers to the challenges our antibiotics set them.

176 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:19:06pm

re: #135 Ojoe

One would think that school kids are smart enough to make up their own minds when they see more than one explanation for things.

This whole debate is built on a disrespect for the intelligence of young people.

I am not young anymore, but were I, what amounts to the shouting in my ear by both sides of this debate would earn my huge scorn.

Yes, let’s teach lies and truth together, creationism with evolution as equivalent science, and let them sort it out. Somehow it’s disrespectful not to. Why stop there though, why not teach these formidable formative intellects haruspex, dousing, and phrenology in biology, chemistry and mechanics classes? After all, children teach themselves, or something.

177 wrenchwench  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:19:53pm

re: #166 EmmmieG

As someone who spends most of her time in the company of children—they are capable of jaw-dropping stupidity and brilliant creativity and brilliance. Often in the same child. Often in the same hour.

There are adults like that too!

/stop looking at me

178 theheat  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:19:58pm

re: #163 freetoken

I think children ought to hear about creationism, in all it’s forms - Christian, Islam, etc. Then the also ought to hear about why those ideas are so daffy and have been proven wrong over and over, and how antiquated the neolithic/bronze-age thinking really is.

That’s the part that will never happen. Ever. Never ever. Might hurt somebody’s feelers, and probably end in a lawsuit.

So, I’d just as soon it stays out of schools altogether.

179 freetoken  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:21:01pm

re: #168 researchok

The ability of the construction industry to build shelters/commercial structures has far exceeded the actual demand.

No wonder, given how our society (government + private investors) made construction the “growth” industry to help take the place of lost industry (being outsourced across the globe) for the unskilled/semi-skilled labor.

180 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:22:22pm

I don’t know who I feel should be involved in schools. Ideally I would want it local and on the state level however when I see and read about the Texas board of education and what they see as worthly to teach our children I do worry. I am sorry but Thomas Jefferson is much more important not just to US history but history as a whole than John Calvin. Calvin should be taught but as part of Reformation history along with Knox, Luther, and other Protestant reformers. He’s part of history but JEfferson’s history and his views on church and state are much more germane to our history.

181 Liberal Classic  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:22:50pm

I guess this is no longer just a Bible-belt problem.

182 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:23:51pm

re: #176 goddamnedfrank

Yes, let’s teach lies and truth together, creationism with evolution as equivalent science, and let them sort it out. Somehow it’s disrespectful not to. Why stop there though, why not teach these formidable formative intellects haruspex, dousing, and phrenology in biology, chemistry and mechanics classes? After all, children teach themselves, or something.

As has been pointed out, it took an Adam Smith to find the law of supply and demand, which seems so simple once you are taught it. There are some things that kids must be taught, and cannot just find out. It takes an Isaac Newton, an Adam Smith, a Galileo Galilei to find out for us what seems so simple we can’t believe it wasn’t just known, but it wasn’t. It had to be found by a great mind.

183 shutdown  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:25:08pm

re: #180 HappyWarrior

I don’t know who I feel should be involved in schools. Ideally I would want it local and on the state level however when I see and read about the Texas board of education and what they see as worthly to teach our children I do worry. I am sorry but Thomas Jefferson is much more important not just to US history but history as a whole than John Calvin. Calvin should be taught but as part of Reformation history along with Knox, Luther, and other Protestant reformers. He’s part of history but JEfferson’s history and his views on church and state are much more germane to our history.

But that’s the point, isn’t it. The fundies would leave it up to local school boards (at least the ones they can control) to determine not only who was more important, but what Jefferson actually meant when he insisted on a walll separating church and state.

184 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:25:33pm

Those who understand evolution are elitists. Those who understand creationism are honest, hard-working, everyday Joes and Janes.

And that is how it is going to play out in the next election and in the next generation of schoolchildren.

185 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:26:07pm

re: #183 imp_62

But that’s the point, isn’t it. The fundies would leave it up to local school boards (at least the ones they can control) to determine not only who was more important, but what Jefferson actually meant when he insisted on a walll separating church and state.


Is that in the Constitution?

186 researchok  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:26:08pm

re: #179 freetoken

The ability of the construction industry to build shelters/commercial structures has far exceeded the actual demand.

No wonder, given how our society (government + private investors) made construction the “growth” industry to help take the place of lost industry (being outsourced across the globe) for the unskilled/semi-skilled labor.

Very true. I hadn’t thought about that.

I guess long term outlook for construction supply companies is bleak.

Come to think of it, prices for lumber and OSB/plywood are down significantly.

187 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:26:43pm

OT, weird and potentially tragic accident in California:

BREAKING NEWS:10 students injured in North High cooking equipment explosion

Ten students at North High School in Torrance were rushed to the hospital today with injuries sustained when portable cooking equipment exploded in a classroom.

Four of those teens were seriously hurt in the blast, which was reported at 12:46 p.m., officials said.

Traffic was blocked at the intersection of 182nd Street and Prairie Avenue while 35 emergency personnel - including five ambulances - responded.

10 students burned at Torrance high school when cooking device explodes

Ten students at North High School in Torrance were injured on campus Friday when a portable cooking device they were using exploded.

The explosion occurred during a lunchtime fundraiser for UNICEF, said Tammy Khan, a spokeswoman for Torrance Unified School District. Students were cooking for the fundraiser when the accident occurred.

All 10 were taken to local hospitals.

The nature of their injuries are unclear, but some received burns to their necks, faces and hands. There was no immediate word on whether any students suffered life-threatening injuries

188 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:26:58pm

re: #186 researchok


I always wondered why housing was growing by leaps and bounds when the rest of the economy was contracting.

189 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:27:23pm

re: #111 Obdicut

Here’s something sad to think about.

I’ve just been reading some more Sapolsky, and he makes a very good case that improving access to health care for the poor will not matter, because their number one health problem is that they’re poor— and that they’re made to feel poor, and made to feel that being poor is shameful, bad, and dangerous.

Here’s a good bit on it.

[Link: books.google.com…]

That doesn’t square with some of the data. Hispanics have better health prospects than whites, though less money. [Recent census data—-lower infant mortality, longer life expectancy.]

Correlation between poverty and health is not perfect, and the causation can be nonexistent or it can run both ways. Bad health can be a cause of poverty, directly. Poverty can be a cause of bad health if you can’t afford safe drinking water or enough food. It can also be a cause of bad health if you can’t afford to move away from a neighborhood where there’s too much gunplay, knife work, and vicious dogs running around.

But drinking to excess, indulging in gunplay and/or knife work, and so on, can bring on both poverty and bad health. Not all the poor are blameless. Some of them are a curse to their neighbors and a cause of ill health in others.

Wealth can be a cause of bad health. Drinking to excess, indulging in very expensive recreational drugs, and playing with risky toys most people cannot afford, such as airplanes, can ruin your health. Eating way too much requires some spare income. Not all the rich are blameless for their own health problems. Some of them, too, are a curse to their neighbors and a cause of ill health in others. [Not my boss, but DilbertBosses of the world, you know who you are.]

And so it goes.

190 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:27:38pm

re: #162 Ojoe

I was taught many things as a child, and I did not believe the half of them from the git-go.

So your memory tells you.

Kids do not have an innate ability to differentiate between truth and fiction. They have to be taught.

Without a decent store of reliable knowledge in their forming brains, they can be led to believe most things. The scientific method was developed because our innate judgment gave us too many wrong answers about our physical surroundings, so even adults have trouble knowing real from imagined.

Part of education is to make sure the kids have enough background knowledge to understand the current lesson. That means give them factual knowledge and the training to separate truth from fiction based on that knowledge.

191 theheat  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:27:58pm

re: #181 Liberal Classic

I think it’s primarily bible-belt, just by numbers, but it has pockets of support everywhere.

I was delighted to learn my next door neighbor (I’m rural) is not a fundie. In fact, she’s totally anti-fundie, a lifelong Democrat, and was a hippie in her youth. So, over a few bottles of whine, we got to talk about the fundies that surround us as neighbors. FWIW, we aren’t in the classic bible-belt, but it’s pretty doggone fundie where I am, in a state that’s usually thought of as liberal.

192 acacia  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:29:00pm

re: #184 ralphieboy

I don’t if I agree that those who understand evolution are “elitists.” I think the science has widespread acceptance. One can be very religious (i.e. the average Joes and Janes you refer to) and in full undertanding and agreement with the science of evolution.

193 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:29:23pm

re: #183 imp_62

But that’s the point, isn’t it. The fundies would leave it up to local school boards (at least the ones they can control) to determine not only who was more important, but what Jefferson actually meant when he insisted on a walll separating church and state.

Yeah, I meant ideally I prefer it be locallized for practical reasons. On the otherhand, I do feel there should be some universal things that should be taught to our students and Jefferson’s writings on the that wall of spearation are definitely among them.

194 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:30:29pm

re: #180 HappyWarrior

I don’t know who I feel should be involved in schools. Ideally I would want it local and on the state level however when I see and read about the Texas board of education and what they see as worthly to teach our children I do worry. I am sorry but Thomas Jefferson is much more important not just to US history but history as a whole than John Calvin. Calvin should be taught but as part of Reformation history along with Knox, Luther, and other Protestant reformers. He’s part of history but JEfferson’s history and his views on church and state are much more germane to our history.

It should be out of the hands of the general populace entirely - except as an oversight.

There should be an independent board of respected professors from say the top 100 universities in America, along with some hundred or so public education teachers with at least 10 years experience, who meet and determine minimum standards of education for each grade, along with several tiers of advanced tracking, that are enforced across the board on a national scale.

If they come up with something super whacky, congress can defeat it by a super majority, subject to veto by the president.

195 shutdown  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:31:10pm

re: #190 b_sharp

So your memory tells you.

Kids do not have an innate ability to differentiate between truth and fiction. They have to be taught.

Without a decent store of reliable knowledge in their forming brains, they can be led to believe most things. The scientific method was developed because our innate judgment gave us too many wrong answers about our physical surroundings, so even adults have trouble knowing real from imagined.

Part of education is to make sure the kids have enough background knowledge to understand the current lesson. That means give them factual knowledge and the training to separate truth from fiction based on that knowledge.

It is also not clear that he chose to disregard the correct information. For all I know, Ojoe chose to believe in terra-centric astronomy and a flat earth.

196 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:31:35pm

re: #182 EmmmieG

I rather thought it was Volterra with those predator prey curves who found that law.

197 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:32:37pm

re: #192 acacia

I don’t if I agree that those who understand evolution are “elitists.” I think the science has widespread acceptance. One can be very religious (i.e. the average Joes and Janes you refer to) and in full undertanding and agreement with the science of evolution.

I am talking about the lowest common denominator of perception of the issue in political advertising: supporters of evolution are branded as “elitists” by its opponents, while supporters of creationism present themselves as everyday hard-working Americans.

198 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:33:26pm

re: #189 lostlakehiker

[snip]

Not all the rich are blameless for their own health problems.
[snip]

But most of the rich have the money to “fix” their health problems, whether those problems themselves are self imposed or not. Big difference.

And so it goes.

199 engineer cat  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:33:28pm

haruspex, dousing, and phrenology

these days we have “stock market analysis”

200 Jadespring  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:34:03pm

re: #199 engineer dog

haruspex, dousing, and phrenology

these days we have “stock market analysis”

:D

201 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:34:13pm

When will California school boards be able to teach crystal healing?

202 shutdown  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:34:17pm

If the fundies get their way, 30 years from now we will be back to believing in the theory of phlogiston and that washing removes from your body important barriers to disease.

203 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:34:45pm

re: #199 engineer dog

haruspex, dousing, and phrenology

these days we have “stock market analysis”

A thousand updings if I could!

204 BishopX  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:34:46pm

re: #175 lostlakehiker


The fact that my car is held together with duct tape and baling wire doesn’t mean GM did the job right.

The fact that bivalves have a better optic nerve setup than humans means that either a)intelligent design was not uniformly competent or b)the intelligence really had it out for humans.

If we’re going to play the definition game, I’ll accept your definition of intelligence and raise you the definition of design, namely the existence of an agent doing the designing. Enough stick in the river will eventually form a dam, and pouring sticks into a river is a valid design approach (it might even be an intelligent design approach in certain situations), but finding sticks blocking a river does not mean that someone designed a dam there.

205 researchok  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:34:50pm

re: #188 ralphieboy

I always wondered why housing was growing by leaps and bounds when the rest of the economy was contracting.

Lots of reasons- Free raises a good point, there was the free money mortgages, etc., but in fact, lower technology has advanced leaps and bounds in home building.

You get a lot more house for a lot less money nowadays.

206 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:35:03pm

re: #189 lostlakehiker

You don’t appear to understand. I’m citing Sapolsky’s research on the effects of socioeconomic statu

His research, as I said, showed that socioeconomic status matters because it’s made to matter to the poor; status is related to immune system function.

In cultures where there is greater respect for the elderly, greater family bonds, etc., like Hispanic communities, there will be positive effects from that.

It has nothing at all to do with the primary causes that you listed. This is about immune system function as it relates to status.

Please read what I cited.

207 acacia  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:35:04pm

re: #194 LudwigVanQuixote
That’s a scary scenario. I’d like to think I had some control over my child’s public education by voting for the best school board members, etc. I think if the scenario you paint occurred, you public education would eventually become a thing of the past as the people would simply enroll their kids in private schools and/or demand (and vote for candidates who will give them) vouchers.

208 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:35:11pm

re: #194 LudwigVanQuixote

It should be out of the hands of the general populace entirely - except as an oversight.

There should be an independent board of respected professors from say the top 100 universities in America, along with some hundred or so public education teachers with at least 10 years experience, who meet and determine minimum standards of education for each grade, along with several tiers of advanced tracking, that are enforced across the board on a national scale.

If they come up with something super whacky, congress can defeat it by a super majority, subject to veto by the president.


Dude, this isn’t a bad idea really. I like it a lot really. I do feel some small things mostly in history and literature should be somewhat localized. Like I would want Virginia students learning abotu teh Virginia Stature of Religious Freedom and I would emphasize that more in Va than say if I lived in some otehr state. Or if I were in a literature course, I would place a little more emphasis on writers from that region. But I do feel standards for the maths and sciences should be practically universal if not totally.

209 garhighway  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:35:58pm

re: #156 Ojoe

Any other thing you think kids shouldn’t hear?

They are going to hear it all, they are not kept in school forever.

Assuming schools would teach how to think critically, one would not have to worry about the conclusions that the students might reach.

There are only so many hours in a school day. Every one we spend teaching ancient fables as science is an hour we don’t spend on history, science, the arts, language, etc…

210 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:36:01pm

re: #191 theheat

I think it’s primarily bible-belt, just by numbers, but it has pockets of support everywhere.

I was delighted to learn my next door neighbor (I’m rural) is not a fundie. In fact, she’s totally anti-fundie, a lifelong Democrat, and was a hippie in her youth. So, over a few bottles of whine, we got to talk about the fundies that surround us as neighbors. FWIW, we aren’t in the classic bible-belt, but it’s pretty doggone fundie where I am, in a state that’s usually thought of as liberal.

I updinged you just for the brilliant pun.

211 shutdown  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:36:46pm

re: #194 LudwigVanQuixote

It should be out of the hands of the general populace entirely - except as an oversight.

There should be an independent board of respected professors from say the top 100 universities in America, along with some hundred or so public education teachers with at least 10 years experience, who meet and determine minimum standards of education for each grade, along with several tiers of advanced tracking, that are enforced across the board on a national scale.

If they come up with something super whacky, congress can defeat it by a super majority, subject to veto by the president.

I wrote a paper to that effect while in college. My grade was appallingly low for what I thought was an outstanding Platonic idea.

212 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:37:50pm

re: #199 engineer dog

haruspex, dousing, and phrenology

these days we have “stock market analysis”

I was recently in a discussion with a very dear friend who is another physicist. He and I were having a very technical discussion about chaos and intermittancy (this is a technical term for a certain behavior) as it relates to turbulence theory and the stock market.

I pointed out that at least with turbulence, we know what the underlying governing equations are. The stock market will always have an element of voodoo about it because at its core, all of its definitions are subjective.

213 Jadespring  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:38:07pm

re: #199 engineer dog

haruspex, dousing, and phrenology

these days we have “stock market analysis”

One of my economics teachers in Uni had a great sense of humor about the subject. He titled the days we covered the stock market and analysis, “The Way of Magic and Wizards” (or something like that)

214 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:38:48pm

re: #211 imp_62

Education has always been a rather local issue, which made sense in a time when people lived and remained in one region and in one profession all their lives.

But good luck in selling an enhanced role for the Federal Government in the current political climate.

215 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:39:10pm

re: #202 imp_62

If the fundies get their way, 30 years from now we will be back to believing in the theory of phlogiston and that washing removes from your body important barriers to disease.

Well, I somehow suspect a large number of teabags don’t wash all that much as it is.

Then again, when you get that fat, its hard to reach certain places.

216 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:40:02pm

re: #196 LudwigVanQuixote

I rather thought it was Volterra with those predator prey curves who found that law.

You made me go and check. Adam Smith did describe supply and demand in 1776*, with other economists refining the idea afterwards.

217 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:40:16pm

re: #215 LudwigVanQuixote

Well, I somehow suspect a large number of teabags don’t wash all that much as it is.

Then again, when you get that fat, its hard to reach certain places.

Ewww.

218 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:41:21pm

re: #216 EmmmieG

You made me go and check. Adam Smith did describe supply and demand in 1776*, with other economists refining the idea afterwards.

As I was GOING to add before my hand so rudely twitched and submitted that before I was ready:

The Wealth of Nations came out in 1776. What a piece of irony. Or not. Smith was part of the Scottish Enlightenment, which influenced the American political scene enormously.

219 Tigger2005  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:41:34pm

Reposting this e-mail I got from iUniverse, advertising a self-published book by some creationist cretin. Hmm, I wonder why they decided to market this book to Tea Partiers?


Tea Party Members, Here is Your Call to Action!

Stirring new nonfiction urges silent majority to make their voices heard, spread God’s word

OTTSVILLE, Pa. – Mainstream media is full of dire warnings about the current economic crisis and the desperate need for a financial bailout. But what if America’s (and the world’s) problems stem from something much deeper than monetary malaise? What if what we really need is a worldwide “spiritual bailout”? In his persuasive new nonfiction, Gods “Literal” Plan of Creation – vs. – the Great Satan Generation of Viper (published by iUniverse), Jack Hall outlines the problems facing today’s world and presents a series of strategies for restoring a spiritually depleted society.

“If it appears as the genie of evil has escaped its vial it is because a misunderstanding of freedom has destroyed its oneness,” Hall asserts in his passionate cry to the Tea Party-minded members of the population in his compelling call to action. Identifying the liberal, progressive politics overtaking the country, according to Hall, Gods “Literal” Plan of Creation is just the beginning to an effective plan, one that includes ridding America of the scourge of immorality threatening to overtake the land.

Looking at the Bible as a figurative allegory for all of God’s creation, Hall points to the Scientific Age as the root of many of today’s problems. When the commonly accepted definition of creation was turned upside down with the introduction of the big bang theory, Satan was given a perfect opportunity to maximize his mission to adulterate freedom.

In just 13 concise chapters, Hall deftly portrays the devastating effects of secular, liberal practices throughout the centuries and how they serve to give Satan and his minions myriad opportunities to corrupt morality and turn, America, into a cesspool of hedonism. Realizing that free will allows us to make the choice to believe in evolution or creationism, Hall nonetheless is relentless in his passionate cry to fellow believers to spread his message, writing:

Join with me as we peruse of an age that has annulled the free will, placed the soul in isolation at the bottom of the foot, replaced creation with evolution, substitute natural law for scientific fact, assigned Big Bang to the vacated throne of God, and polluted the pure strain of freedom with the most vile and obscene acts ever to cross the human mind. Welcome to America where the nature of conflict as a quantum of opposing spheres presented God with concern from the beginning.

Discover how you can make a change in the inspiring pages of Jack Hall’s Gods “Literal” Plan of Creation – vs. – the Great Satan Generation of Viper.

About the Author

Jack Hall is a former teacher of American history and is the Freedom Foundation’s George Washington Teacher of the Year of Secondary Education. He is also the author of the well-received The Spiritron Sperm and Education: A 21st Century Primer.

220 theheat  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:41:46pm

re: #215 LudwigVanQuixote

But if you make something of yourself instead of relying on the commie government, you can pay brown people to wash those places for you.
//

221 garhighway  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:42:55pm

re: #214 ralphieboy

Education has always been a rather local issue, which made sense in a time when people lived and remained in one region and in one profession all their lives.

But good luck in selling an enhanced role for the Federal Government in the current political climate.

The only way it would work is with the carrot of Fed money: “Use the National Curriculum and get a big grant. Don’t, and you won’t.”

But where would THAT money come from?

So I agree: the idea is a non-starter.

222 garhighway  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:43:43pm

re: #215 LudwigVanQuixote

Well, I somehow suspect a large number of teabags don’t wash all that much as it is.

Then again, when you get that fat, its hard to reach certain places.

And many have santorum stains on their clothes.

223 theheat  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:44:16pm

re: #219 Tigger2005

Also reads like the breakout sessions from the last Value Voter’s Summit. You think I’m kidding?

Indivisible: Social and Economic Foundations of American Liberty
Social Justice: Am I My Brother’s Keeper?
The Falsehood of the Inevitablity of Same-Sex “Marriage”
The Economic Impact of Illegal Immigration
How to Reach the Online Generation (Without Losing Your Soul)
Against the Odds: Real Students Making Real Change
A Special Polling Presentation: Who are Tea Party and Christian Voters and What Do They Believe?
Establishing a Culture Impact Team In Your Church
Why Christians Should Support Israel
Getting Out the Vote on Election Day
Who’s Politicizing Science? The Obama Administration’s War on Life

Featuring as guest speakers, the familiar faces of GOPs like Michele Bachmann, Gary Bauer, Jim Inhofe, Newt Gingrich, Christine O’Donnell, Jim DeMint, Tony Perkins, Mike Huckabee, Rick Santorum, Phyllis Schlafly, and, of course, the Duggar family.

224 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:45:18pm

re: #223 theheat

Also reads like the breakout sessions from the last Value Voter’s Summit. You think I’m kidding?

Featuring as guest speakers, the familiar faces of GOPs like Michele Bachmann, Gary Bauer, Jim Inhofe, Newt Gingrich, Christine O’Donnell, Jim DeMint, Tony Perkins, Mike Huckabee, Rick Santorum, Phyllis Schlafly, and, of course, the Duggar family.

Tony Perkins has so much values that he shares the mailing list of David Duke without a second thought.

225 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:45:46pm

re: #218 EmmmieG

As I was GOING to add before my hand so rudely twitched and submitted that before I was ready:

The Wealth of Nations came out in 1776. What a piece of irony. Or not. Smith was part of the Scottish Enlightenment, which influenced the American political scene enormously.


My favorite AS quote, and the one that seems to get lost in the Free market free-for-all ideology is that “Markets are there to serve people, people are not there to serve markets”.

He was mostly opposed to state-run and licenced monopolies and guilds, like the British East India Company or the Stamp Act.

Nowadays, we have the military-industrial complex with its no-bid, cost-plus contracts.

226 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:46:41pm

re: #182 EmmmieG

As has been pointed out, it took an Adam Smith to find the law of supply and demand, which seems so simple once you are taught it. There are some things that kids must be taught, and cannot just find out. It takes an Isaac Newton, an Adam Smith, a Galileo Galilei to find out for us what seems so simple we can’t believe it wasn’t just known, but it wasn’t. It had to be found by a great mind.

We stand on the shoulders of giants, Charles Darwin is among them.

re: #190 b_sharp

Without a decent store of reliable knowledge in their forming brains, they can be led to believe most things.

Exactly, cf. tax brackets. Full grown adults don’t just choose to start believing in lies because they were primed with a reliable store of knowledge as children. Something happens to them along the way, they get pumped full of so many lies that discerning the truth has become genuinely difficult.

227 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:47:27pm

re: #225 ralphieboy


Adam Smith, Thomas Paine, John Locke, and most of our founding fathers were very anti-corporation. They feared concentration of power more than almost anything. That’s why the Constitution spreads out the power in our government.

They would be appalled to see how much power a single corporation can wield in this day of mass media.

228 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:50:55pm

re: #207 acacia

That’s a scary scenario. I’d like to think I had some control over my child’s public education by voting for the best school board members, etc. I think if the scenario you paint occurred, you public education would eventually become a thing of the past as the people would simply enroll their kids in private schools and/or demand (and vote for candidates who will give them) vouchers.

That is an interesting point. Sometimes when I wrote about should, I am not writing about politically practicable.

For certain the GOP types would have a field day talking about the Government brainwashing your kids with all that science and factual history.

They would not see the contradiction with trying to have the government force religious dogma in schools as brainwashing either…

The reason I like that system though is that however much the average American feels the right to determine his child’s education, he simply isn’t educated enough himself to know what an education is. He just isn’t qualified - and the evidence from one look at the teabags and the majority of home schooled Jesus bots is overwhelming to this effect.

Bottom line is that there are certain things a child needs to know if he or she is going to be competitive in an academic or technological environment. Many other nations have systems like what I am referring to, and surprise surprise, they dust the average American school child every time.

In Israel for example, it is common for 16 year olds to be through single variable calculus, be bi or even tri lingual, and to have a knowledge of science superior to that of most American college sophomores. The smart kids are through Linear Algebra and Ordinary Differential Equations.

In America, there are still kids who get through those things by the time they are 16. However, that is most assuredly because of very special talents and the support of parents who saw to it that they got that education from outside sources.

The average American 16 year old can not manage algebra, tell you the main factors that led to the Civil War, has never even heard that the English had a very important Civil War too, and barely speaks English, let alone another language.

229 engineer cat  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:51:05pm

re: #203 LudwigVanQuixote

:-)

thx!

230 theheat  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:51:33pm

re: #227 Obdicut

And the disappointment that so many figures in power deny social and scientific truths, this many years later. It’s intellectual regression in action.

231 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:52:59pm

re: #230 theheat

They’d fucking hate the creationists. They would have such immense scorn for them.

It’s funny, in a sad way, to think of Jefferson running into Huckabee.

232 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:53:05pm

re: #218 EmmmieG

As I was GOING to add before my hand so rudely twitched and submitted that before I was ready:

The Wealth of Nations came out in 1776. What a piece of irony. Or not. Smith was part of the Scottish Enlightenment, which influenced the American political scene enormously.

You made me go and check… How about this. Smith came up with the idea first, but Volterra came up with the math first.

233 theheat  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:53:51pm

re: #231 Obdicut

Jefferson would kick his ass ;-) He’d probably call Huckabee a traitor!

234 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:53:54pm

The funniest thing to me is when the founders are made out to be conservatives. They were the liberals and I’d even say radicals of their day. In a world where monarchies dominated they opposed that. Now is it the liberalism we know today perhaps not but for their time they were radical. And as we’ve seen with Texas, many of their views on church and state would have offended today’s Christian conservatives.

235 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:54:09pm

re: #228 LudwigVanQuixote

That is an interesting point. Sometimes when I wrote about should, I am not writing about politically practicable.

For certain the GOP types would have a field day talking about the Government brainwashing your kids with all that science and factual history.

They would not see the contradiction with trying to have the government force religious dogma in schools as brainwashing either…

The reason I like that system though is that however much the average American feels the right to determine his child’s education, he simply isn’t educated enough himself to know what an education is. He just isn’t qualified - and the evidence from one look at the teabags and the majority of home schooled Jesus bots is overwhelming to this effect.

Bottom line is that there are certain things a child needs to know if he or she is going to be competitive in an academic or technological environment. Many other nations have systems like what I am referring to, and surprise surprise, they dust the average American school child every time.

In Israel for example, it is common for 16 year olds to be through single variable calculus, be bi or even tri lingual, and to have a knowledge of science superior to that of most American college sophomores. The smart kids are through Linear Algebra and Ordinary Differential Equations.

In America, there are still kids who get through those things by the time they are 16. However, that is most assuredly because of very special talents and the support of parents who saw to it that they got that education from outside sources.

The average American 16 year old can not manage algebra, tell you the main factors that led to the Civil War, has never even heard that the English had a very important Civil War too, and barely speaks English, let alone another language.

At least the United States School children rank number one in confidence.

236 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:54:27pm

Ohio cross-burning lawsuit ended

COLUMBUS, Ohio — An Ohio middle school teacher accused of burning images of crosses on students’ arms has dropped a federal lawsuit that challenged his firing.

Notice of the lawsuit’s dismissal was filed Thursday by attorneys for science teacher John Freshwater and the targets of his lawsuit, including current and former Mount Vernon school board members. Freshwater had sought $1 million in the 2009 lawsuit filed in U.S. District Court in Columbus, arguing that his free speech and civil rights were violated. He also asked a judge to reinstate him to his position as an eight-grade teacher.

Sarah Moore, an attorney representing school board members and the Mount Vernon superintendent, confirmed the dismissal to The Associated Press and said her clients were pleased.

The Mount Vernon school board fired Freshwater in 2008, citing an internal investigation that found he had preached Christian beliefs in class. As late as July, he remained on unpaid administrative leave pending an appeal.

237 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:54:50pm

re: #228 LudwigVanQuixote

That is an interesting point. Sometimes when I wrote about should, I am not writing about politically practicable.

For certain the GOP types would have a field day talking about the Government brainwashing your kids with all that science and factual history.

They would not see the contradiction with trying to have the government force religious dogma in schools as brainwashing either…

The reason I like that system though is that however much the average American feels the right to determine his child’s education, he simply isn’t educated enough himself to know what an education is. He just isn’t qualified - and the evidence from one look at the teabags and the majority of home schooled Jesus bots is overwhelming to this effect.

Bottom line is that there are certain things a child needs to know if he or she is going to be competitive in an academic or technological environment. Many other nations have systems like what I am referring to, and surprise surprise, they dust the average American school child every time.

In Israel for example, it is common for 16 year olds to be through single variable calculus, be bi or even tri lingual, and to have a knowledge of science superior to that of most American college sophomores. The smart kids are through Linear Algebra and Ordinary Differential Equations.

In America, there are still kids who get through those things by the time they are 16. However, that is most assuredly because of very special talents and the support of parents who saw to it that they got that education from outside sources.

The average American 16 year old can not manage algebra, tell you the main factors that led to the Civil War, has never even heard that the English had a very important Civil War too, and barely speaks English, let alone another language.

LVQ, with all due respect, and at the risk of perpetuating a stereotype—

Those kids in Israel? They’re JEWISH. You know, the kids who conspire with Asians to ruin the bell curve for everyone else?

238 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:56:30pm

What is most necessary, to use whatever is practical to get the kids to enjoy learning or to force feed enough information into their brains for them to pass a test, or some combination?

239 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:56:43pm

re: #237 EmmmieG

But that’s cultural, not genetic. Jews do, culturally, have something to teach the rest of the world, but it’s not to do with us being genetically different.

240 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:57:03pm

re: #234 HappyWarrior

The funniest thing to me is when the founders are made out to be conservatives. They were the liberals and I’d even say radicals of their day. In a world where monarchies dominated they opposed that. Now is it the liberalism we know today perhaps not but for their time they were radical. And as we’ve seen with Texas, many of their views on church and state would have offended today’s Christian conservatives.

Classical Liberalism, the foundation of what used to be known as conservatism.

241 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:57:47pm

re: #235 Walter L. Newton

At least the United States School children rank number one in confidence.

With the bar set so low, it is hard not to be confident.

242 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:58:22pm

re: #232 LudwigVanQuixote

You made me go and check… How about this. Smith came up with the idea first, but Volterra came up with the math first.

Smith was no more the last word on economics than Newton was the last word on physics.

I do not mean to diminish their importance. The others were building on their work.

243 shutdown  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:58:37pm

re: #238 b_sharp

What is most necessary, to use whatever is practical to get the kids to enjoy learning or to force feed enough information into their brains for them to pass a test, or some combination?

I have been educated in both types of system and took something out of each. I would say it depends on the subject matter.

244 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:59:59pm

re: #142 imp_62

Stewardship is just so much more difficult than ecological pillage. If God wanted the air to be clean, He would not have allowed us to invent internal combustion. If He wanted us to be immune against disease, we would be so, naturally.
It is attitudes such as these that make it distasteful for me when the fundamentalists speak of a “Judeo-Christian” ethic. Judaism really does not have this fatalistic end-time component.

Or… God likes cockroaches and the malaria virus. So we’ve been evolved here to provide a niche in the malaria reproduction cycle and a means for cockroaches to expand their occupation area as they prepare to go back to giant size and re-conquer the world once the stars are right.

/

245 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:00:14pm

re: #237 EmmmieG

LVQ, with all due respect, and at the risk of perpetuating a stereotype—

Those kids in Israel? They’re JEWISH. You know, the kids who conspire with Asians to ruin the bell curve for everyone else?

No, not really. Those kids come from cultures that value education.

Go figure, if your culture has the values that “my son the doctor” beats “my son the quaterback” hands down every time, you get more educated people.

246 theheat  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:00:35pm

re: #237 EmmmieG

My step-niece (is that even a term?) just came over from Russia this summer to go to live and go to school here in the states. Spoke no English when she got here, and is now learning rapidly. But academically, in math and soforth, she’s way ahead of other kids her same age.

She’s ethnic Asian and Russian. Double threat!

247 shutdown  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:01:01pm

re: #244 oaktree

Or… God likes cockroaches and the malaria virus. So we’ve been evolved here to provide a niche in the malaria reproduction cycle and a means for cockroaches to expand their occupation area as they prepare to go back to giant size and re-conquer the world once the stars are right.

/

Time to rent Men in Black again.

248 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:01:02pm

re: #239 Obdicut

But that’s cultural, not genetic. Jews do, culturally, have something to teach the rest of the world, but it’s not to do with us being genetically different.

Fine. We’ll just get the Jewish Mommies and the Asian Mommies* together and they can give lessons to everyone else.

*Full disclosure: After our freak-out over a math test score last year, my daughter’s Asian friends nominated us as honorary Asian parents.

249 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:01:15pm

re: #239 Obdicut

But that’s cultural, not genetic. Jews do, culturally, have something to teach the rest of the world, but it’s not to do with us being genetically different.

Shhhh don’t let the secret out! You secularist!

////

250 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:02:12pm

re: #219 Tigger2005

“If it appears as the genie of evil has escaped its vial it is because a misunderstanding of freedom has destroyed its oneness,” Hall asserts in his passionate cry to the Tea Party-minded members of the population in his compelling call to action. Identifying the liberal, progressive politics overtaking the country, according to Hall, Gods “Literal” Plan of Creation is just the beginning to an effective plan, one that includes ridding America of the scourge of immorality threatening to overtake the land.

Oh brother. It’s another ‘other’ mother-

251 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:02:44pm

re: #240 Slumbering Behemoth

Classical Liberalism, the foundation of what used to be known as conservatism.

Sure, absolutely. But contempoary conservatism seems to be more about opposing any tax, scapegoating minorities, etc. There are reasonable conservatives out there but they’re called RINOs.

252 shutdown  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:03:38pm

re: #245 LudwigVanQuixote

No, not really. Those kids come from cultures that value education.

Go figure, if your culture has the values that “my son the doctor” beats “my son the quaterback” hands down every time, you get more educated people.

When for most of your history you have been barred from sports, excluded form owning land, and been forced to survive on your wits, you develop quick wits.

Wait - is that evolution?????

253 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:04:11pm

re: #251 HappyWarrior

Contemporary conservatism is anything but.

254 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:05:14pm

re: #238 b_sharp

What is most necessary, to use whatever is practical to get the kids to enjoy learning or to force feed enough information into their brains for them to pass a test, or some combination?

I am far from knowledgeable in the finer details of teaching methods or educational theories, so I can only talk from personal experience.

I went through 12 years of Catholic school, in the days were rote learning was one of the main areas of Catholic education.

And I know this much, the constant, repetitive exercises on math, english composition and penmanship has stuck with me for the whole of my life (well, my composition get sloppy when I’m ranting)…

Most of the kids I know, grown up 18 year old and older, cannot even PRINT clearly enough for anyone to understand their handwriting.

I can do most basic multiplication in my head, add and subtract numbers without a calculator, the basic life skills were rhetorically “pounded” into my head by rote.

I know this is not a deep insight on my part, but I really wonder if we haven’t lost something by turning away from some tried and true teaching methods.

There will always be students that need extra help, or who need to strive in an accelerated teaching environment, and there should always be programs available for them, but in my opinion the ordinary student wouldn’t be cheated from some good old rote learning.

255 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:05:15pm

re: #253 Slumbering Behemoth

Contemporary conservatism is anything but.

Yeah it seems more reactionary in nature and attitude.

256 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:05:25pm

re: #248 EmmmieG

Fine. We’ll just get the Jewish Mommies and the Asian Mommies* together and they can give lessons to everyone else.

*Full disclosure: After our freak-out over a math test score last year, my daughter’s Asian friends nominated us as honorary Asian parents.

When I was a boy it was rather clear:

A stood for adequate.
B stood for bad.
C stood for catastrophe.

The other grades were unthinkable.

257 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:05:55pm

re: #252 imp_62

Jews were also forced into hard labor, enslaved and made to dig mines, build pyramids, and cut sugar cane.

There’s been no ‘evolution’ beyond minor immune system differences like any other endogamous group.

It really is the culture, and we really, really should pay attention to what that can teach us.

100% literacy, for example.

258 shutdown  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:06:22pm

re: #250 Slumbering Behemoth

Oh brother. It’s another ‘other’ mother-

You know, I don’t hate people like this. They have always been this way, and they have always been around. I hate the GOP Tea Baggers for being hard boiled and cynical enough to give these idiots a voice to instrumentalize them for their votes.

259 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:07:37pm

Reactionary and veering backwards. Hardly what I would call “conservative”, but what would INO, I’m just a RINO.

260 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:07:51pm

Off topic…

Anyone seen Canadian Club Ackbar?

261 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:08:32pm

re: #241 LudwigVanQuixote

With the bar set so low, it is hard not to be confident.

No problem with agreeing with you on that. How did that bar get set so low?

262 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:11:26pm

re: #258 imp_62

I don’t hate them either. But I do severely dislike them and distrust them. They stand on their soapbox and play on the fear of the ‘other’ in order to divide us from within and destroy our nation.

Sound familiar?

263 shutdown  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:13:08pm

re: #257 Obdicut

Jews were also forced into hard labor, enslaved and made to dig mines, build pyramids, and cut sugar cane.

There’s been no ‘evolution’ beyond minor immune system differences like any other endogamous group.

It really is the culture, and we really, really should pay attention to what that can teach us.

100% literacy, for example.

I forgot sarc tags on my post. I am with you 100%. BTW, the Jews did not build the pyramids, they built cities. Nowhere in Biblical written or oral tradition is it stated that the Jews built pyramids. That is why it is so amusing to me that modern Egyptians sink so much time and money into proving that the Jews did not build the pyramids. That is like funding a massive research effort to prove that there are no pots of gold at the end of a rainbow.

264 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:14:26pm

re: #252 imp_62

When for most of your history you have been barred from sports, excluded form owning land, and been forced to survive on your wits, you develop quick wits.

Wait - is that evolution???

There are those who would argue that. It is the premise of a book called The Jewish Mystique that was published some years ago. I personally don’t buy it.

The reality is that I have met some spectacularly dumb Jews - however much it pains me to admit it.

The difference is, and remains that America breeds an awful lot of intellectual laziness. This leads average people to see all too many topics as “too hard for them” when in reality they could do them if they had the drive to struggle with them.

Jewish and many Asian cultures provide that drive. It is not that the average Asian or Jewish student is smarter, but rather that they have the drive to live up to their potential academically. Any teacher will tell you that if you set the bar high in a class - not too high - but high enough that the kids are challenged, and then follow through and expect them to reach it - they will for the most part. On the other hand, if you set the bar low, you get the lazier kids not even trying to reach that.

On the upper end of the spectrum, if yu have a kid who is gifted, they are encouraged to develop those skills to their full potential. Rather than being ostracized, they are held up as examples and respected.

You can not argue with the results.

Jews are less than one percent of the population of the technological world. We have something near 50% of the Nobel Prizes, Fields Medals and major academic awards.

The Asians are busy overtaking us, as after four generations, American Jews are becoming more and more average American in their educational values.

265 shutdown  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:15:02pm

re: #262 Slumbering Behemoth

I don’t hate them either. But I do severely dislike them and distrust them. They stand on their soapbox and play on the fear of the ‘other’ in order to divide us from within and destroy our nation.

Sound familiar?

Controlling usage and language is an important element of fascist rule.

266 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:15:58pm

re: #263 imp_62

I didn’t know that about the pyramids, thanks.

267 julmudgeon  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:16:31pm

#22 Quixote: “We didn’t come from some monkey! That degrades human life! We were formed out of dirt!”

Perfect. With your permission, I’m going to use that at every opportunity. Bravo!

Sometimes the obvious is the highest and best argument.

Re the Delaware debate I posted that I wanted to ask O’Donnell, Limbaugh, Beck, et al. just where it says in the Constitution that religion should be a part of the U.S. Government.

School boards who want intelligent design to be part of the curriculum should also make room for the more valid religion of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (see re Florida, Kansas).

268 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:16:52pm

Hmm… Feels like some Mike Relm should go here.

On that note, I am off. Laters.

269 shutdown  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:17:28pm

Good night, shabbat shalom, as applicable, and see you all later.

270 Jadespring  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:18:45pm

This is totally OT but I need to relate my tragic story I’m really sad. The hubby is bringing home a yummy dinner from one of our favorite places. I was really looking forward to it. He just called and has been delayed. I have to go out for the evening and he won’t make it home before I have go.

I’m hungry.

Poor me :(

271 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:20:21pm

re: #264 LudwigVanQuixote

I have known so many people that considered themselves ‘dumb’ that turned out to be able to handle massively complex concepts. It helps that most massively complex concepts are, in the end, also elegant.

It’s all about making it a good thing to learn.

272 theheat  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:20:35pm

re: #270 Jadespring

Well, maybe if you’d planned better for unexpected emergencies, you wouldn’t be caught flat footed like this, depending on someone else to provide for you.
//

Seriously only joking. But it sounded so Republican, I had to say it.

273 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:20:37pm

I gotta run too! Good Shabbos all! Have a great weekend!

274 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:21:24pm

I should probably add here that I believe in the multiple intelligences thing. There are many different talents a person can have. IQ is one of them.

There is also what I call EQ (probably there’s a better name), or Emotional Quotient, the ability to understand and work with people. According to my father, my grandfather had the ability, in the middle of a sales pitch, to read how it was going and adjust his proposal accordingly.

There is physical ability.

There is aesthetic ability.

There is musical ability. (Wish I had some.)

There is organizational ability. My husband and my sister-in-law both have the ability to carry a schedule in their head. This amazes me.

To only measure one part of it is one-dimensional and lop-sided.

275 Jadespring  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:23:02pm

re: #272 theheat

Well, maybe if you’d planned better for unexpected emergencies, you wouldn’t be caught flat footed like this, depending on someone else to provide for you.
//

Seriously only joking. But it sounded so Republican, I had to say it.

It’s okay I do have emergency provisions. I have some instant oatmeal in the cupboard. I was going to do the peanut butter and toast thing but alas, I’m out of peanut butter!

276 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:23:23pm

re: #274 EmmmieG

Indeed. Both my parents are amazing teachers, very accomplished in their fields, wonderful writers, and excellent critics. But they have great difficulty with science, and they cannot figure out how to pack objects in space at all. I helped them reorganize their basement last summer and it was almost comical the way that they’d arranged things in the least efficient fashion.

277 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:23:52pm

Now I’m going to go cook some lamb.

Mmm, lamb.

278 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:29:16pm

re: #256 LudwigVanQuixote

When I was a boy it was rather clear:

A stood for adequate.
B stood for bad.
C stood for catastrophe.

The other grades were unthinkable.

A pass, B fail. D and F did not exist in our universe.

279 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:30:40pm

re: #194 LudwigVanQuixote

It should be out of the hands of the general populace entirely - except as an oversight.

There should be an independent board of respected professors from say the top 100 universities in America, along with some hundred or so public education teachers with at least 10 years experience, who meet and determine minimum standards of education for each grade, along with several tiers of advanced tracking, that are enforced across the board on a national scale.

If they come up with something super whacky, congress can defeat it by a super majority, subject to veto by the president.

Swimming might be more important in Florida than in Wyoming. Health class might need to go into more on hypothermia in Wyoming than in Florida. There really is a role for local input to schooling.

As to home schooling, John Stuart Mills was home schooled. Home-schooled kids are over-represented among the winners at, say, spelling bees. It’s a mistake to equate home-schooling with homeskool.

280 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:32:07pm

Funny thing about my own academic standards is I’ve become a lot tougher on myself since I started going to a four year school. In the past mostly in high school but also in community college too I was often happy just to pass but now it’s weird but I actually find myself disappointed sometimes with B’s. Now, I was pleased to hear today that I havea B+ in Spanish and given my historic weaknesses in foreign language I was psyched but a B+ would be cause for disappointment for me if it was history.

281 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:34:27pm

re: #276 Obdicut

Indeed. Both my parents are amazing teachers, very accomplished in their fields, wonderful writers, and excellent critics. But they have great difficulty with science, and they cannot figure out how to pack objects in space at all. I helped them reorganize their basement last summer and it was almost comical the way that they’d arranged things in the least efficient fashion.

My mother is one of the most creative, gifted people you can meet, but she needs a safety monitor to follow her around and say, “Don’t do that. That’s a bad idea. No, tie that down before you drive off down the road.”

This person is often known as my father. He’s the left brain to her right brain. My joke is that they got married so that they could link arms, which would prevent my father from falling over left and my mother from falling over right.

282 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:36:58pm

re: #279 lostlakehiker

Thank you.

283 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:40:39pm

It appears I now have this thread to myself. What shall I do with it?

284 PT Barnum  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:42:45pm

re: #274 EmmmieG

I should probably add here that I believe in the multiple intelligences thing. There are many different talents a person can have. IQ is just one of them.

To only measure one part of it is one-dimensional and lop-sided.

Added the just for emphasis.

One of the reasons that I think education sometimes misses the boat is that it takes a one size fits all approach as opposed to understanding that some kids learn differently.

I happen to think that there are a lot of ADD/dyslexic/and otherwise learning disabled kids who would do fine using more kinetic/experiential methods whereas sitting in a classroom is just torture.

285 PT Barnum  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:43:06pm

Emmie..I’m here!

286 PT Barnum  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:45:13pm

New Anti-O’Donnell ad

287 PT Barnum  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:45:31pm

And here’s the actual video

288 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:45:59pm

re: #286 PT Barnum

New Anti-O’Donnell ad

Any glowing-eyed demon animals?

Any strange, random confessions?

I’ve come to have a high standard for political ads.

289 mr.fusion  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:46:31pm

This is just depressing…..not so much because these people are out there, but because they’re about 2 weeks from having a major say in American public policy.

I honestly had more faith in the American people than this……

290 PT Barnum  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:47:17pm

And now for a little yoyo

291 palomino  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:47:19pm

re: #254 Walter L. Newton

I can relate. I went to a Catholic HS. There were a lot of things about it that I hated at the time. Like not having girls around, among other things.

But the education was top notch. Ninth grade grammar was essentially a year of diagramming sentences. It seemed dreadfully dull at the time, and in retrospect it was dreadfully dull. However, it was also invaluable as far as building the foundation for later classes in composition and literature, even in foreign language classes. Putting up with the tedium back at the time made me a better writer and overall student. All of which connects to your point about rote learning.

292 Usually refered to as anyways  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:48:31pm

re: #275 Jadespring

It’s okay I do have emergency provisions. I have some instant oatmeal in the cupboard. I was going to do the peanut butter and toast thing but alas, I’m out of peanut butter!

/Meanwhile hubby is parked on the side of the road somewhere scoffing down two lovely dinners.

293 PT Barnum  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:49:25pm

re: #288 EmmmieG

Any glowing-eyed demon animals?

Any strange, random confessions?

I’ve come to have a high standard for political ads.

No but there’s a mouse with a human brain..is that good enough for you?

I personally think that she got the idea from watching Word Girl on PBS

294 PT Barnum  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:51:31pm

re: #293 PT Barnum

No but there’s a mouse with a human brain..is that good enough for you?

I personally think that she got the idea from watching Word Girl on PBS


[Video]

Word Girl and Phineas and Ferb the two shows I watch even when my son isn’t around.

295 PT Barnum  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:53:34pm
296 3eff Jeff  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:59:05pm

re: #290 PT Barnum

And now for a little yoyo

[Video]

Tying the string to the yo-yo is for pikers.

(That’s mesmerizing, thanks.)

297 Usually refered to as anyways  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 4:01:10pm

re: #290 PT Barnum

And now for a little yoyo

[Video]

Yo you, great yoyo fu

298 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 4:05:58pm

See you all later.

299 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 4:16:02pm

re: #281 EmmmieG

My mother is one of the most creative, gifted people you can meet, but she needs a safety monitor to follow her around and say, “Don’t do that. That’s a bad idea. No, tie that down before you drive off down the road.”

This person is often known as my father. He’s the left brain to her right brain. My joke is that they got married so that they could link arms, which would prevent my father from falling over left and my mother from falling over right.

I am this person, with the creativity and also the stupid goddamn ideas and lack of handyman skills that will get me killed :D

300 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 4:23:21pm

re: #148 HappyWarrior

What they say is that Christ didn’t demand that we use the government to help the poor. Which is kinda stupid since they want to use the government to enforce other parts of their morality but not to help people. And also many of these same people strongly admire Ayn Rand who not only looked down on the idea of charity but even called it immoral.

ding ding ding

301 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 4:24:12pm

re: #294 PT Barnum

Word Girl and Phineas and Ferb the two shows I watch even when my son isn’t around.

P&F is awesome.

More intelligent gags in most episodes than most of what passes for prime time entertainment :-)

302 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 4:34:34pm

SCOTUS declines to review ACSI v. Stearns

On October 12, 2010, the Supreme Court declined (PDF, p. 12) to review Association of Christian Schools International et al. v. Roman Stearns et al., thus bringing the case to a definitive end. The case, originally filed in federal court in Los Angeles on August 25, 2005, centered on the University of California system’s policies and statements relevant to evaluating the qualifications of applicants for admission. The plaintiffs — the Association of Christian Schools International, the Calvary Chapel Christian School in Murrieta, California, and a handful of students at the school — charged that the university system violated the constitutional rights of applicants from Christian schools whose high school coursework is deemed inadequate preparation for college.

It’s dead, Jim.

303 calochortus  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 4:37:14pm

re: #302 Slumbering Behemoth

And rightly so.

304 webevintage  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 4:38:41pm

Here’s another good story for the day:

Florida gives up fight on gay parents
[Link: www.arktimes.com…]

305 darthstar  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 4:38:53pm

re: #302 Slumbering Behemoth

SCOTUS declines to review ACSI v. Stearns

It’s dead, Jim.

But Separation of Church and State isn’t in the Constitution!
/

306 darthstar  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 4:39:26pm

re: #304 webevintage

Here’s another good story for the day:

Florida gives up fight on gay parents
[Link: www.arktimes.com…]

That is good news.

307 calochortus  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 4:41:41pm

What I don’t get about the Jesus didn’t insist on the government helping the poor, I don’t recall that he prohibited it either.

308 calochortus  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 4:42:54pm

re: #307 calochortus

I should have said the folks who say Jesus didn’t insist…

309 calochortus  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 4:50:14pm

How sad. I killed the thread…

310 webevintage  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 4:51:12pm

Newsweek Poll
Congressional Elections/Marijuana
Princeton Survey Research Associates International

For those who find polls interesting:
[Link: nw-assets.s3.amazonaws.com…]

President Obama’s approval ratings have jumped substantially, crossing the magic halfway threshold to 54 percent, up from 48 percent in late September, while the portion of respondents who disapprove of the president dropped to 40 percent, the lowest disapproval rating in a NEWSWEEK poll since February 2010. However, his approval rating, which is notably higher than many recent polls of the president’s popularity, may be evidence of a closing “enthusiasm gap” more than a sea change in voter attitudes, and may not substantially affect Democrats’ fortunes come Election Day. In 1994, NEWSWEEK polls showed a similar steep climb in President Clinton’s approval between late September and late October, but Democrats still suffered a rout in the midterms.

311 Winny Spencer  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 4:52:51pm

re: #309 calochortus

Don’t worry. It can happen to anyone of us.

312 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 4:56:50pm

re: #228 LudwigVanQuixote

That is an interesting point. Sometimes when I wrote about should, I am not writing about politically practicable.

For certain the GOP types would have a field day talking about the Government brainwashing your kids with all that science and factual history.

They would not see the contradiction with trying to have the government force religious dogma in schools as brainwashing either…

The reason I like that system though is that however much the average American feels the right to determine his child’s education, he simply isn’t educated enough himself to know what an education is. He just isn’t qualified - and the evidence from one look at the teabags and the majority of home schooled Jesus bots is overwhelming to this effect.

Bottom line is that there are certain things a child needs to know if he or she is going to be competitive in an academic or technological environment. Many other nations have systems like what I am referring to, and surprise surprise, they dust the average American school child every time.

In Israel for example, it is common for 16 year olds to be through single variable calculus, be bi or even tri lingual, and to have a knowledge of science superior to that of most American college sophomores. The smart kids are through Linear Algebra and Ordinary Differential Equations.

In America, there are still kids who get through those things by the time they are 16. However, that is most assuredly because of very special talents and the support of parents who saw to it that they got that education from outside sources.

The average American 16 year old can not manage algebra, tell you the main factors that led to the Civil War, has never even heard that the English had a very important Civil War too, and barely speaks English, let alone another language.

The average IQ in the U.S. is not 115.

Your only fair comparison would be to Singapore or Japan or Shanghai. Going by Japanese high school texts, the broad masses do not in fact learn differential equations at age 16. They do, however, learn algebra, up to and including geometric series.

313 Winny Spencer  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 4:57:09pm

re: #311 Winny Spencer

Case in point….

Do people have a life or something? Something to do on a friday evening?

314 calochortus  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 4:57:12pm

re: #311 Winny Spencer

Perhaps there is a pharmaceutical available to prevent it?

315 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 4:57:39pm

I’m thinking of Angle’s freakout about Dearborn.

Let’s imagine that Dearborn, Mich. is in fact a hotbed of creeping sharia law. Let’s say that the local Dearborn authorities decide that they want to teach ‘the controversy’, giving the kids a Muslim perspective on the creation of the world, or man, or what have you.

Is this passionate committment to local autonomy going to last past that point for any of these people?

(Oh, and also, re the last thread, the stalkers are already on it. They don’t approve of the statement, mind you, but Maxine Waters justified the riots in 92, so it’s not like Democrats don’t suggest that the violent overthrow of the government of the United States is a valid option all the damn time.)

316 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 4:58:46pm

re: #239 Obdicut

But that’s cultural, not genetic. Jews do, culturally, have something to teach the rest of the world, but it’s not to do with us being genetically different.

IQ, going by twin studies, has almost nothing to do with culture. No disrespect, you have a wonderful culture, but that’s not the whole of the story.

317 BishopX  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 4:59:40pm

re: #310 webevintage

Mid term elections are always rough on the party that controls the presidency. The exception to this was 2002, for obvious reasons. Generally 1st term presidents fare worse than 2nd term ones. It’s going to be worse than usual but it won’t be apocalyptic.

318 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:01:38pm

re: #21 eclectic infidel

Notice the slight dig at unions?

School boards, unless they are lined with established scientists and science instructors, have no business dictating science curriculum.

So what is the real goal of pushing pseudo-science in the classroom? Do creationists really want kids to be taught that Jesus walked with dinosaurs, and to abandon critical thinking? To what end? Is it easier to ram religious fundamentalism down someone’s throat if they’ve been spoon fed BS in the classroom since day one? Seriously. Anyone care to address this?

Yes, reckon it is. The more you push the idea that science, like religion, is a matter of belief, the easier it is to keep convincing people that this belief is better than that belief.

A friend of mine, raised Southern Baptist, once asked about evolution in Sunday School. Her teacher’s answer was, “Well, T, do you WANT to be related to a monkey?”

That, to me, sums it all up. You don’t have to have real theology for these people, any more than real science. You believe what makes you feel good.

And they trash LIBERALS for pushing self-esteem in schools!

319 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:01:48pm

re: #316 lostlakehiker

IQ, going by twin studies, has almost nothing to do with culture. No disrespect, you have a wonderful culture, but that’s not the whole of the story.

1. IQ is a shitty measure of intelligence.

2. Twins have very little to do with a very large group of humans. At all. The comparison doesn’t work.

3. You have not really shown yourself to have a good grasp of genetics and/or evolution, as per the last thread human evolution was discussed.

320 calochortus  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:01:55pm

re: #315 SanFranciscoZionist

I think that is one reason many “local control” advocates are also terribly worried about cultural changes-someone could teach the Islamic take on things in a public school-and that would be a problem.

321 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:03:22pm

re: #35 darthstar

OT: Someone set up a website designed specifically to scare Juan Williams.

Pictures of Muslims Wearing Things

That is hilarious.

Am I the only person who wishes that a few of those Muslims hadn’t been wearing things?

Shah Rukh Khan, I am looking at you.

322 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:05:35pm

re: #316 lostlakehiker

IQ, going by twin studies, has almost nothing to do with culture. No disrespect, you have a wonderful culture, but that’s not the whole of the story.

Intelligence has nothing to do with culture?


Really?

323 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:06:30pm

re: #35 darthstar

OT: Someone set up a website designed specifically to scare Juan Williams.

Pictures of Muslims Wearing Things

Well. I did not know that Dave Chappelle was a Muslim. You learn something new every day.

324 Winny Spencer  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:07:31pm

re: #321 SanFranciscoZionist

No, but I’d look at Rima Fakih.

325 calochortus  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:08:10pm

re: #321 SanFranciscoZionist

What a hoot. Perhaps Juan Williams can spend some time getting comfortable with what Muslims look like.

326 AlexRogan  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:09:54pm

re: #323 SanFranciscoZionist

Well. I did not know that Dave Chappelle was a Muslim. You learn something new every day.

Yeah…I loved Chappelle’s Show, but hate that the show’s success fucked with his head, enough for him to quit it (after re-signing his contract for many, many, millions).

Besides Dave, Charlie Murphy (Eddie’s brother) and Paul Mooney was two of my favorite players on the show…loved the Haters and Negrodamus.

327 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:10:24pm

re: #322 WindUpBird

Twin studies are also massively problematic all on their own.

[Link: docs.google.com…]

Peter Schonemann has also done significant work showing that the statistical models used in many twin studies are immensely flawed.

328 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:10:45pm

re: #41 HappyWarrior

The Onion’s Our Dumb World wasn’t kidding, Queen Ramia of Jordan is one beautiful woman.

I have some political bones to pick with Rania, but she is very, very pretty.

329 AlexRogan  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:10:48pm

re: #326 talon_262

Not to mention that the Rick James episode was epic…

330 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:15:21pm

re: #77 darthstar

Crap…this is the part that’s really offensive I meant to quote:

Fuck.Me…sheesh.

It’s not insulting to be told you look Asian. It’s insulting to be told that racism against you isn’t real because…hell, who knows what race anyone is? We could all be Asians or something!

331 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:19:07pm

re: #330 SanFranciscoZionist

It’s not insulting to be told you look Asian. It’s insulting to be told that racism against you isn’t real because…hell, who knows what race anyone is? We could all be Asians or something!

Most likely all Africans, but that was some time ago. At least 6000 yrs.

332 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:19:26pm

re: #135 Ojoe

One would think that school kids are smart enough to make up their own minds when they see more than one explanation for things.

This whole debate is built on a disrespect for the intelligence of young people.

I am not young anymore, but were I, what amounts to the shouting in my ear by both sides of this debate would earn my huge scorn.

It is disrespectful to young people to teach them that iffy religious belief is just as good a source for scientific information as solid science.

333 engineer cat  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:21:21pm

re: #331 Decatur Deb

Most likely all Africans, but that was some time ago. At least 6000 yrs.

60 - 40 thousand years ago for the dispersal from africa

334 calochortus  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:21:50pm

re: #332 SanFranciscoZionist

Not to mention that there is a lot we need to teach kids and very limited time available to do it. How much of the school day do we want to spend weighing the merits of special creation against climbing up into this world through a reed?

335 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:22:35pm

re: #333 engineer dog

60 - 40 thousand years ago for the dispersal from africa

I think DD was making a joke about creationists.

336 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:24:16pm

re: #328 SanFranciscoZionist

I have some political bones to pick with Rania, but she is very, very pretty.

I find Shohreh Aghdashloo rather pretty as well. I remember her from a Season of 24.

337 engineer cat  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:26:36pm

re: #335 b_sharp

I think DD was making a joke about creationists.

slow on the uptake day for me!

:-)

338 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:26:44pm

re: #333 engineer dog

60 - 40 thousand years ago for the dispersal from africa

That would be the last one. I haven’t disowned Pithecanthropus yet.

339 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:30:22pm

re: #336 eclectic infidel

I find Shohreh Aghdashloo rather pretty as well. I remember her from a Season of 24.

She’s cute.

My husband liked Abdullah’s Trekkie turn.

340 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:33:20pm

re: #319 Obdicut

1. IQ is a shitty measure of intelligence.

2. Twins have very little to do with a very large group of humans. At all. The comparison doesn’t work.

3. You have not really shown yourself to have a good grasp of genetics and/or evolution, as per the last thread human evolution was discussed.

1. Twin studies are a very good way to ascertain whether or not tested IQ is more strongly correlated with the adoptive parents, or with each other. The answer is, each other, by a very wide margin. It therefore follows that genetics plays a significant role in IQ.


2. The armed forces qualification test is very nearly an IQ test. It’s also been extensively and very carefully validated. It’s a good measure of who can be trained to this or that task, to an acceptable standard, in the time available. It simply is not true that IQ test scores are no measure of real-world capacities. Odds are, those scores even play into who fares well in the debates that rage on these threads. Thus, I reckon your score tops mine. I’m sure that LVQ and Charles are way up there too, along with several others that frequent these pages.

3. Circular argument. You disagree with me, which proves I’m wrong. But it doesn’t. Human evolution is, in fact, not something that happened once upon a time but ceased scores of thousands of years ago. It’s just a biological fact that Tibetans fare better at high altitude than most of us, that group biological differences account for a lot of this, and that the evolution of this group feature is a fairly recent development.

341 Killgore Trout  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:34:20pm

Instapundit links to this “thought experiment”…..

From the Juan Williams episode, we know that it’s not all right to think, “Hmmm. Those guys are Muslims. I know it’s not completely rational, but I can’t help but being jumpy when I’m on an airplane with ‘em.”

So let’s do a thought experiment. We won’t use the word “Muslim.” Instead, let’s use the word “crocodile.” OK? So the question is, do you qualify as a lunatic if you say, “You know, it’s certainly not completely rational, but when I see a crocodile on the plane with me, it makes me jumpy and nervous. I don’t have anything against crocodiles, but on airplanes, they sort of freak me out.”

342 bratwurst  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:35:15pm

re: #341 Killgore Trout

Instapundit links to this “thought experiment”

What is the OPPOSITE of thought?

343 Killgore Trout  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:35:52pm

re: #342 bratwurst

What is the OPPOSITE of thought?

Bigotry.

344 Killgore Trout  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:36:30pm

I also see the wingnuts are all wound up about brown people stealing elections. Sigh.

345 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:36:36pm

Mingus Jazz Workshop: Pithecanthropus Erectus

346 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:36:45pm

re: #336 eclectic infidel

I find Shohreh Aghdashloo rather pretty as well. I remember her from a Season of 24.

re: #339 SanFranciscoZionist

She’s cute.

There have been times when I wished there wasn’t so much animosity harbored by the loyal opposition, in particular, the Arab women screaming hostile words at us from across the street (at counter demos). I know a number of them are well-educated in addition to being beautiful. Alas, their hatred of Zionists would prevent ever such a friendly encounter.

347 calochortus  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:37:27pm

re: #341 Killgore Trout

Muslim, crocodile, practically the same thing…/

348 wrenchwench  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:38:21pm

re: #341 Killgore Trout

Instapundit links to this “thought experiment”

Well, the blog that posted it is called “Glib & Superficial”. That’s appropriate. Then that blog links to an article supposedly about a crocodile killing people on a plane, when in actuality, the plane crashed because the foolish people panicked. What lesson should we take from this?

I’d say don’t fly with Juan Williams.

349 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:40:11pm

re: #347 calochortus

Muslim, crocodile, practically the same thing…/

Crocodiles are worse than snakes on planes:

[Link: www.google.com…]

350 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:40:12pm

re: #135 Ojoe

One would think that school kids are smart enough to make up their own minds when they see more than one explanation for things.

This whole debate is built on a disrespect for the intelligence of young people.

I am not young anymore, but were I, what amounts to the shouting in my ear by both sides of this debate would earn my huge scorn.

You just keep hitting it out of the park there, slugger

“Okay, kids, today we’re going to learn both sides to the argument about smoking: are cigarettes sexy and healthful and the secret to staying young? Or are they a poisonous carcinogenic?”

You really should work for the tobacco industry, they could use a guy like you

351 Killgore Trout  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:40:18pm

re: #348 wrenchwench

Well, the blog that posted it is called “Glib & Superficial”. That’s appropriate. Then that blog links to an article supposedly about a crocodile killing people on a plane, when in actuality, the plane crashed because the foolish people panicked. What lesson should we take from this?

I’d say don’t fly with Juan Williams.

lol

352 engineer cat  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:42:40pm

re: #345 Decatur Deb

Mingus Jazz Workshop: Pithecanthropus Erectus

[Video]

awright!

was listening to this in the car today

353 CuriousLurker  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:42:44pm

re: #348 wrenchwench

Well, the blog that posted it is called “Glib & Superficial”. That’s appropriate. Then that blog links to an article supposedly about a crocodile killing people on a plane, when in actuality, the plane crashed because the foolish people panicked. What lesson should we take from this?

I’d say don’t fly with Juan Williams.

They keep trying to change this to be about what Williams thought instead of what he said.

354 wrenchwench  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:44:48pm

re: #353 CuriousLurker

They keep trying to change this to be about what Williams thought instead of what he said.

If what he thought is anything like what he said, that’s stupid too.

355 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:45:55pm

Introducing The New Definition Of “O’Donnell”

Heh. I would have went with “Catching your husband in the act of masturbating, not to pornography, but to a political speech made by someone that actually uses logic and reason”.

356 CuriousLurker  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:48:17pm

re: #354 wrenchwench

If what he thought is anything like what he said, that’s stupid too.

LOL, true. I’m just annoyed with them for trying to add Thought Police.

357 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:48:29pm

re: #340 lostlakehiker

1. Twin studies are a very good way to ascertain whether or not tested IQ is more strongly correlated with the adoptive parents, or with each other. The answer is, each other, by a very wide margin. It therefore follows that genetics plays a significant role in IQ.

No, they’re not. They have possibility. There are huge problems with them. See what I cited.

It’s a good measure of who can be trained to this or that task, to an acceptable standard, in the time available. It simply is not true that IQ test scores are no measure of real-world capacities.

Sure. They also exclude anyone who is bad at taking tests, or who didn’t learn whatever precursors were necessary to take the test because they weren’t taught in the right way.


3.

Circular argument. You disagree with me, which proves I’m wrong

No, I’m saying that you’ve demonstrated sufficient ignorance about genetics for me to be comfortable dismissing a lot of what you say about genetics, especially when it’s stuff about twin studies and your apparent lack of knowledge that they’re considered highly problematic.

Human evolution is, in fact, not something that happened once upon a time but ceased scores of thousands of years ago.

Gee, thanks for letting me know. I’m not saying otherwise. Did you even read what I wrote to you the other night?

It’s just a biological fact that Tibetans fare better at high altitude than most of us, that group biological differences account for a lot of this, and that the evolution of this group feature is a fairly recent development.

And it’s true that if you placed any other group of humans in such an environment for a similar number of generations, that that feature would be selected for. It’s a minor adaptation along the lines of the immune adaptations various human groups have; it relies on genes present in the general human pool. If you took a group of Tibetans out of there and to another environment, that feature would no longer be selected for very quickly, just as sickle cell genes are being selected against in the American black population.

I didn’t object to the idea that the Tibetans had acquired higher lung function; I pointed out that the genetic tendency for it was present in all other human populations as well, just not currently selected for. In addition, genes are inseparable from environment; a whole other thorny issue that i don’t have time to delve into here.

I really highly recommend the books The Selfish Gene, The Extended Phenotype, and Dennett’s Darwin’s Dangerous Idea, if you want to get a good read of why I’m objecting to your formulations on genetics.

358 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:48:56pm

re: #353 CuriousLurker

They keep trying to change this to be about what Williams thought instead of what he said.

That’s always wrong, and often times quite rude.

Just like I don’t want some asshole telling me what I really meant when I said something, I don’t want people telling me what someone else really thought when they said something.

359 wrenchwench  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:49:46pm

Later, lizards.

360 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:51:04pm

re: #356 CuriousLurker

LOL, true. I’m just annoyed with them for trying to add Thought Police.

I took a speech (public speaking) class once, and the instructor called that sort of thing “Mind Rape”.

361 JamesWI  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:51:38pm

Oh good lord. I loaded up the front page, and staring me in the face was an ad with the giant, emotionless face of Ben Quayle

362 RadicalModerate  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:52:13pm

About that apology that Virginia Thomas (Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas’ wife) was demanding of Anita Hill? In light of new information gained from his ex-girlfriend breaking a 19-year silence… that’s kind of doubtful. [interview video included in link]

Justice Clarence Thomas’ Former Lover Speaks Out on Relationship in TV Interview

Lillian McEwen, a retired prosecutor, law professor and administrative law judge, discussed her intimacy with Thomas in a lengthy television interview Friday with reporter Rebecca Cooper of ABC affiliate WJLA in Washington, D.C.

“He was obsessed with pornography,” McEwen told Cooper. “It was something he talked about quite frequently.”

McEwen’s comments appear to bolster testimony by Hill, who alleged Thomas sexually harassed her by graphically describing his interest in porn.

“He talked about pornographic materials depicting individuals with large penises or large breasts involved in various sex acts,” Hill testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee in 1991. “On several occasions Thomas told me graphically of his own sexual prowess.”

363 CuriousLurker  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:52:14pm

re: #358 Slumbering Behemoth

That’s always wrong, and often times quite rude.

Just like I don’t want some asshole telling me what I really meant when I said something, I don’t want people telling me what someone else really thought when they said something.

Good point and very well said!

364 calochortus  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:54:05pm

re: #362 RadicalModerate

Either Ginny Thomas is nuts or she’s up to something. I suppose time will tell.

365 prairiefire  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:54:45pm

President Obama has contributed to the “It Gets Better” campaign:[Link: www.itgetsbetterproject.com…]

366 calochortus  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:56:28pm

I guess I’d better round up some dinner.

367 CuriousLurker  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:56:37pm

re: #360 Slumbering Behemoth

I know I get pretty damned annoyed when people try to tell what I actually believe, regardless of what I just said.

368 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:58:14pm

re: #356 CuriousLurker

LOL, true. I’m just annoyed with them for trying to add Thought Police.

Not the thought police, the Dream Police :)

369 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 5:59:15pm

re: #367 CuriousLurker

I never really gave it much thought before I took that class, but that sort of thing happens quite often, in any number of subjects and discussions, and it’s very rude.

370 CuriousLurker  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 6:00:22pm

re: #368 wlewisiii

Not the thought police, the Dream Police :)


[Video]

LOL!

371 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 6:04:10pm

re: #368 wlewisiii

Not the thought police, the Dream Police :)


[Video]

Or the Mouse Police:

372 CuriousLurker  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 6:05:13pm

re: #369 Slumbering Behemoth

I never really gave it much thought before I took that class, but that sort of thing happens quite often, in any number of subjects and discussions, and it’s very rude.

It does. You see it everyday right here at LGF. I try to be really cautious about not doing it myself (by jumping to conclusions). Not so much because it’s rude, but because it makes me look & feel stupid. ;)

373 Usually refered to as anyways  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 6:05:35pm

re: #365 prairiefire

President Obama has contributed to the “It Gets Better” campaign:[Link: www.itgetsbetterproject.com…]

/Runs around screaming with my hair on fire!
/Oh noes, Obama is trying to force our kids to be committed to being gay.

I’m not so sure thats funny as its a serious subject, thank you Mr President.

374 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 6:08:25pm

re: #373 ozbloke

/Runs around screaming with my hair on fire!
/Oh noes, Obama is trying to force our kids to be committed to being gay.

I’m not so sure thats funny as its a serious subject, thank you Mr President.

Looks like he’s decided to ignore the Hate Brigade. He knows nothing short of seppuku will please them.

375 darthstar  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 6:15:32pm
376 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 6:22:24pm

re: #372 CuriousLurker

It does. You see it everyday right here at LGF. I try to be really cautious about not doing it myself (by jumping to conclusions). Not so much because it’s rude, but because it makes me look & feel stupid. ;)

It’s a bad habit that we are all guilty of at one time or another. I’ve been much more aware of it after taking that class, but I still catch myself screwing up from time to time. I think “Mind Rape” is a fitting term for it, though.

377 What, me worry?  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 6:25:11pm

Evenin lizards.

I’ll have you know that President Barack Obama called me tonight! Yes, he did! He wanted me to vote early, but I told him I liked voting on Election Day to get the whole community experience, you know?

Oh, and Bill Clinton called last night and Alex Sink called me the night before! How’d they get my number? Am I on a list or something?

My husband is not as easily amused or as entertained as I am. He says they’re promoting the early voting (both sides, btw) so they can collect the data to see where to put their $. Actually, I think he may have a point.

378 CuriousLurker  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 6:33:42pm

re: #376 Slumbering Behemoth

It’s a bad habit that we are all guilty of at one time or another. I’ve been much more aware of it after taking that class, but I still catch myself screwing up from time to time. I think “Mind Rape” is a fitting term for it, though.

The term certainly gets the point across. Personally, I wouldn’t use it—at least not publicly. I’d be worried that someone out there reading/listening had experienced physical rape and might feel… well, I’m not sure what they might feel, but I wouldn’t want to hurt them. That being said, I do believe there are severe kinds of psychological abuse/torture that could probably be just as devastating.

379 theMattHatter  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 6:47:43pm

GREAT! After DECADES of fighting, I have JUST reached a sort of uneasy peace with my staunch, Lutheran family, and now this.(my Mom lives two blocks from Hasterts old office, and I even altered how and where I drive while with them to avoid bringing this up) I feel like I’m constantly dealing with petulant children: if you won’t do it my way, I’ll ruin it for EVERYBODY.

380 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 22, 2010 7:23:58pm

re: #357 Obdicut

No, they’re not. They have possibility. There are huge problems with them. See what I cited.

Sure. They also exclude anyone who is bad at taking tests, or who didn’t learn whatever precursors were necessary to take the test because they weren’t taught in the right way.

3.

No, I’m saying that you’ve demonstrated sufficient ignorance about genetics for me to be comfortable dismissing a lot of what you say about genetics, especially when it’s stuff about twin studies and your apparent lack of knowledge that they’re considered highly problematic.

Gee, thanks for letting me know. I’m not saying otherwise. Did you even read what I wrote to you the other night?

And it’s true that if you placed any other group of humans in such an environment for a similar number of generations, that that feature would be selected for. It’s a minor adaptation along the lines of the immune adaptations various human groups have; it relies on genes present in the general human pool. If you took a group of Tibetans out of there and to another environment, that feature would no longer be selected for very quickly, just as sickle cell genes are being selected against in the American black population.

I didn’t object to the idea that the Tibetans had acquired higher lung function; I pointed out that the genetic tendency for it was present in all other human populations as well, just not currently selected for. In addition, genes are inseparable from environment; a whole other thorny issue that i don’t have time to delve into here.

I really highly recommend the books The Selfish Gene, The Extended Phenotype, and Dennett’s Darwin’s Dangerous Idea, if you want to get a good read of why I’m objecting to your formulations on genetics.

Thanks. I’ll read ExPhen. I’ve read SG already. I agree with most of what you wrote here and I won’t quibble with the rest. I appreciate the civilized and logic-based approach you’re taking.

381 Ming  Mon, Oct 25, 2010 12:00:47pm

Gee, I wonder if these Christian nutcases would be in favor of allowing some local school to teach the Koran in science classes, if the local school decided they wanted to do that, and did not want interference from the federal government.


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