Poll Stories: Obama’s Approval Up

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The latest Newsweek poll shows that President Obama’s approval rating has jumped.

The poll finds that 48 percent of registered voters would be more likely to vote for Democrats, compared with 42 percent who lean Republican (those numbers are similar to those in the last NEWSWEEK Poll, which found Democrats favored 48 percent to 43 percent). President Obama’s approval ratings have jumped substantially, crossing the magic halfway threshold to 54 percent, up from 48 percent in late September, while the portion of respondents who disapprove of the president dropped to 40 percent, the lowest disapproval rating in a NEWSWEEK Poll since February 2010. However, his approval rating, which is notably higher than many recent polls of the president’s popularity, may be evidence of a closing “enthusiasm gap” more than a sea change in voter attitudes, and may not substantially affect Democrats’ fortunes come Election Day. In 1994, NEWSWEEK Polls showed a similar steep climb in President Clinton’s approval between late September and late October, but Democrats still suffered a rout in the midterms.

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218 comments
1 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:16:41am

Here's to that hopey changey thing.

2 darthstar  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:16:55am

Good news, but if I don't get these two dogs down to the beach soon, my approval rating is going to go down like a Wasilla teen.

3 Surabaya Stew  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:17:19am

Thus we can conclude that the mid-40%'s is Obama's bottom rating for popularity, (unless he screws up big time). However, this news is more meaningful for 2012, rather than 2010. A GOP house in November may cement his re-election chances, while a Dem hold on both chambers may hurt him.

4 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:18:46am

re: #3 Surabaya Stew

Yep. Ironically, if one were a partisan Democrat, one would be hoping for a GOP victory in the House-- hell, and the Senate.

I don't want that, however, since I think the GOP is going to waste shitloads of time with asinine crap in the house. But it's almost certainly going to happen anyway.

5 Vambo  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:19:06am

re: #2 darthstar

Good news, but if I don't get these two dogs down to the beach soon, my approval rating is going to go down like a Wasilla teen.

Quagmire says "giggity"

6 Vambo  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:21:31am

re: #4 Obdicut


I don't want that, however, since I think the GOP is going to waste shitloads of time with asinine crap in the house.

...and it will hurt them, I think. Bring on the NPR bill, and Obama 2012.

7 jaunte  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:22:41am

I hope that at least some of the change has to do with voters who think of themselves as independents paying closer attention to the GOP's cynical and immoderate support of any radical conservative that will give them a boost.

8 palomino  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:23:05am

re: #6 Vambo

...and it will hurt them, I think. Bring on the NPR bill, and Obama 2012.

That NPR bill is such pointless grandstanding. They get 2% of their funding indirectly from the feds, that's it. But it makes the base happy.

9 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:23:24am

I must say, I've been wearing both my Obama campaign T and inaugural T a lot lately. Mostly as a "fuck you T Party" statement. Had a guy in the library ->IN THE LIBRARY

10 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:24:08am

re: #8 palomino

And as I said last thread, if they remove the funding for the member stations (who get about 10% of their funding from the feds), it will likely lead to stations in mainly rural areas being closed down-- in areas that mostly vote for the GOP.

11 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:24:12am

re: #9 Jeff In Ohio

call me a socialist.

12 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:24:14am

Or everybody else in Washington is just sinking farther down...

I don't like any of 'em.

13 palomino  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:27:20am

re: #10 Obdicut

And as I said last thread, if they remove the funding for the member stations (who get about 10% of their funding from the feds), it will likely lead to stations in mainly rural areas being closed down-- in areas that mostly vote for the GOP.

Didn't know that. But it's consistent with gop philosophy that all things publicly funded (except military and some corporate breaks) are evil, as in Jesus would have hated them. The rest of the world modernizes, the gop-teabaggers want a return to the wild west.

14 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:27:26am

My kids had a Juan Williams moment today hiking in the woods in Germany. There was a large group of Africans, mostly kids, with a few adults, on the trail behind us, hiking and chanting and singing songs and making a rather lot of noise (which is generally frowned on by most Germans in their forests, which are seen as places of quiet meditation).

At one point, they came up behind us running. My kids freaked and went and hid behind a rock as they ran past.

I recalled Juan Williams and the Muslims at the airport at that moment for some reason...

But for that, I was glad for their presence, I felt a lot less self-conscious about letting my kids run around and scream and make a racket in the forest.

15 Okami  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:27:43am

I think the real question is, how well can the GOP wrap their time wasting/horrible plans/obstructionism in a theme that Americans will buy (saving our country, etc.). If they get control, and everyone sees what they're doing, it's a boon for the democrats. If they get control, but control the message well enough to make everyone think it's really the Democrat's fault that people are losing their homes and can't find jobs, then they'll probably stay for a while.

16 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:28:24am

As a nother funny, I've been redoing some of my music studio in the barn with some old barn siding I salvaged. Last night I was hanging posters and I pulled out my GOTV Obama/Biden Red Team rally point poster from election day '08.

Heh, I was red team leader.

Go Hope!

17 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:29:05am

re: #12 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Or everybody else in Washington is just sinking farther down...

I don't like any of 'em.

The Campaigns have reached the point of high farce, really.

It's October, and I'm starting to get the "Did Candidate Bill Jones really fry and eat 63 puppies at a KKK rally last year?" fliers. From both sides.

It's a waste of their time. I already voted.

18 Varek Raith  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:30:01am

re: #17 EmmmieG

The Campaigns have reached the point of high farce, really.

It's October, and I'm starting to get the "Did Candidate Bill Jones really fry and eat 63 puppies at a KKK rally last year?" fliers. From both sides.

It's a waste of their time. I already voted.

I can raise the dead if your preferred candidate needs more votes...
/

19 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:31:22am

re: #1 Jeff In Ohio

Here's to that hopey changey thing.

Doesn't matter. Everyone know Obama is "The Won" and is worshipped by all moonbats as Lord. If his approval ratings are less than 110 percent, or even lower than they once were, this means he has FAILED, and the nation has turned on him. It's over.

///

20 Varek Raith  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:33:11am

re: #19 SanFranciscoZionist

Doesn't matter. Everyone know Obama is "The Won" and is worshipped by all moonbats as Lord. If his approval ratings are less than 110 percent, or even lower than they once were, this means he has FAILED, and the nation has turned on him. It's over.

///

Heh.
Bush went into the twenties...
We were told, "POLLS DON'T MATTER!!11ty".

21 Okami  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:34:23am

re: #20 Varek Raith

Heh.
Bush went into the twenties...
We were told, "POLLS DON'T MATTER!!11ty".

Once your polls are in the twenties, they don't matter. You're screwed anyway.

22 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:35:15am

re: #19 SanFranciscoZionist

Doesn't matter. Everyone know Obama is "The Won" and is worshipped by all moonbats as Lord. If his approval ratings are less than 110 percent, or even lower than they once were, this means he has FAILED, and the nation has turned on him. It's over.

///

0_o takemetoyourleader o_0

23 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:36:05am

re: #20 Varek Raith

Heh.
Bush went into the twenties...
We were told, "POLLS DON'T MATTER!!11ty".

They do and they don't. They give some information, but it's not an indicator of any one thing. I've just gone beyond being amused when Obama's normal first-half-term numbers are waved hysterically as proof that America has buyer's remorse.

24 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:36:45am

I wearing this one on election day:

[Link: imvotingteaparty.com...]

25 Varek Raith  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:37:06am

re: #23 SanFranciscoZionist

They do and they don't. They give some information, but it's not an indicator of any one thing. I've just gone beyond being amused when Obama's normal first-half-term numbers are waved hysterically as proof that America has buyer's remorse.

Yep.
I generally don't like polls.
Though, with Obama, it's funny.
Below 50% and he's DOOOMMMEEEDDD.
/Wingnut

26 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:38:44am

re: #25 Varek Raith

I think the phrase is "It is what it is."

27 JeffM70  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:40:24am

I read in a few places mentioning these latest results that the Newsweek poll has trended Democratic for the last year or so and is a bit out of line with other polls, for whatever it's worth. Kinda like Rasmussen and Republicans. Polling sometimes seem more an art than a science.

28 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:41:21am

Dunno. I try to maintain a reasonable debating voice here, but there's a point past which fact-free passive-aggressive pseudo-independent snipery starts to annoy.

The last few weeks, it's been amping up.

Election night is going to be like getting bit by ants while trying to have a political discussion.

29 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:43:05am

re: #28 SanFranciscoZionist

Dunno. I try to maintain a reasonable debating voice here, but there's a point past which fact-free passive-aggressive pseudo-independent snipery starts to annoy.

The last few weeks, it's been amping up.

Election night is going to be like getting bit by ants while trying to have a political discussion.

Make that '"fact-free, passive-aggressive, hystrionic, pseudo-independent snipery, cloaked as neutral observations of 'how people are feeling'". Bonus points for hand-wringing about 'what's going on Washington'.

30 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:44:07am

re: #27 JeffM70

I read in a few places mentioning these latest results that the Newsweek poll has trended Democratic for the last year or so and is a bit out of line with other polls, for whatever it's worth. Kinda like Rasmussen and Republicans. Polling sometimes seem more an art than a science.

It is. A bit like reading omens in cattle entrails, but with more statistics involved.

31 Vambo  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:44:08am

re: #11 Jeff In Ohio

call me a socialist.

LMAO

32 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:45:20am

re: #29 SanFranciscoZionist

Pshaw, facts, who needs 'em.

33 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:48:44am

Obama's approval ratings will go up even more if he moves to the center, which he has shown he is capable of doing. So if he starts dealing with the biggest problems in a responsible way, he will not only be more popular, he will be a BETTER President.

34 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:50:43am

re: #28 SanFranciscoZionist

Dunno. I try to maintain a reasonable debating voice here, but there's a point past which fact-free passive-aggressive pseudo-independent snipery starts to annoy.

The last few weeks, it's been amping up.

Election night is going to be like getting bit by ants while trying to have a political discussion.

You call?

35 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:51:00am

re: #29 SanFranciscoZionist

Make that '"fact-free, passive-aggressive, hystrionic, pseudo-independent snipery, cloaked as neutral observations of 'how people are feeling'". Bonus points for hand-wringing about 'what's going on Washington'.

Do you know what the vast majority of Americans are thinking about right now?

Here's my predominant thought for the last few days:

"So help me if those girls in the Color Guard step on one more flag, I'm going to make THEM repair the stupid flags."

I have a strong feeling most Americans have some vague political leanings, think a little more about it right before and after the election, but don't really follow world events. Political ads annoy them, mostly.

Most Americans are thinking about their jobs, families, interests, and repairing ripped mesh in color guard flags. They aren't even the ones I think are pretty, for that matter.

Well, that's my opinion.

36 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:51:31am

re: #33 _RememberTonyC

Obama's approval ratings will go up even more if he moves to the center, which he has shown he is capable of doing. So if he starts dealing with the biggest problems in a responsible way, he will not only be more popular, he will be a BETTER President.

You sure he won't just be a Republican wet dream?

I guess when the Tea Party defines the right, the center looks a smidge to the left of Reagan.

37 Varek Raith  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:51:47am

re: #35 EmmmieG

I so wish that were me.
But no.
I had to be a political junkie.
Le sigh.

38 Varek Raith  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:52:55am

re: #36 Jeff In Ohio

You sure he won't just be a Republican wet dream?

I guess when the Tea Party defines the right, the center looks a smidge to the left of Reagan.

The TeaParty is so far right that they are somewhere out in the Canary Islands.
Or some such.

39 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:53:25am

re: #37 Varek Raith

I so wish that were me.
But no.
I had to be a political junkie.
Le sigh.

Mostly, I am. The flag is driving me nuts. There's a curved seam.

40 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:53:56am

re: #36 Jeff In Ohio

You sure he won't just be a Republican wet dream?

I guess when the Tea Party defines the right, the center looks a smidge to the left of Reagan.

Oddly enough, the tea party movement is having an effect on democrats who are now understanding that SOME of the tea party's pet issues can be co-opted by dems for their advantage too.

41 bluecheese  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:54:43am

re: #33 _RememberTonyC

Obama's approval ratings will go up even more if he moves to the center, which he has shown he is capable of doing. So if he starts dealing with the biggest problems in a responsible way, he will not only be more popular, he will be a BETTER President.

lmfao...

would extending the tax cuts for people making over 250k per year be, you know, "the center"?

42 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:54:56am

re: #38 Varek Raith

The T Partee is so far right, Obama is forced to pursue the socialist policies of the 1990's GOP.

43 Okami  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:55:06am

re: #33 _RememberTonyC

Obama's approval ratings will go up even more if he moves to the center, which he has shown he is capable of doing. So if he starts dealing with the biggest problems in a responsible way, he will not only be more popular, he will be a BETTER President.

That would work, if the Republicans weren't basing their positions off of what the Democratic position is. Obama has to be a socialist, no matter how far right he moves. The GOP campaign depends on it.

44 Michael Orion Powell  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:55:24am

re: #4 Obdicut

Yep. Ironically, if one were a partisan Democrat, one would be hoping for a GOP victory in the House-- hell, and the Senate.

I don't want that, however, since I think the GOP is going to waste shitloads of time with asinine crap in the house. But it's almost certainly going to happen anyway.

After two years of Republican investigations into Obama's citizenship, the President would be able to count on a 2012 victory.

45 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:56:38am

re: #40 _RememberTonyC

Oddly enough, the tea party movement is having an effect on democrats who are now understanding that SOME of the tea party's pet issues can be co-opted by dems for their advantage too.

It's odd that some Democrats embrace shit they don't actually believe in a vain hope to get elected?

46 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:56:40am

re: #43 Okami

That would work, if the Republicans weren't basing their positions off of what the Democratic position is. Obama has to be a socialist, no matter how far right he moves. The GOP campaign depends on it.

"If HE'S in favor of the death penalty, WE'RE in favor of drawing and quartering, and anyone who disagrees is soft on crime and a progressive idiot!"

47 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:57:55am

re: #45 Jeff In Ohio

It's odd that some Democrats embrace shit they don't actually believe in a vain hope to get elected?

The Tea Party is effectively driving the national agenda farther and farther right with their hysterics. All the while whining and crying about how they're living under totalitarian socialism.

48 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 11:58:17am

re: #46 SanFranciscoZionist

"If HE'S in favor of the death penalty, WE'RE in favor of drawing and quartering, and anyone who disagrees is soft on crime and a progressive idiot!"

I wonder how many Americans know what drawing and quartering is?

Or keelhauling? (I've heard two different definitions, both unpleasant.)

The rack and thumbscrews they get, mostly from cartoons.

49 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:00:24pm

re: #45 Jeff In Ohio

It's odd that some Democrats embrace shit they don't actually believe in a vain hope to get elected?

Are you surprised that both sides of the aisle have their pandering types? Did you think only one side played that way?

50 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:02:15pm

re: #49 _RememberTonyC

Are you surprised that both sides of the aisle have their pandering types? Did you think only one side played that way?

I think the point of that post was that no one is surprised. Nor are they necessarily approving.

51 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:02:16pm

re: #43 Okami

That would work, if the Republicans weren't basing their positions off of what the Democratic position is. Obama has to be a socialist, no matter how far right he moves. The GOP campaign depends on it.

But if the regular folks start seeing their lives improve, Obama will get the credit. And this nebulous "GOP" bogeyman will be discredited due to Obama's success.

52 Varek Raith  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:02:30pm

re: #49 _RememberTonyC

Are you surprised that both sides of the aisle have their pandering types? Did you think only one side played that way?

Curious.
What's the lefty version of the TeaParty Movement?

53 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:02:35pm

re: #49 _RememberTonyC

Are you surprised that both sides of the aisle have their pandering types? Did you think only one side played that way?

I'm pretty sure my statement indicated no surprise. However, you brought it up like it was some kind of revelation.

54 Okami  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:02:38pm

re: #45 Jeff In Ohio

It's odd that some Democrats embrace shit they don't actually believe in a vain hope to get elected?

I was looking at a Republican flier yesterday, and if you just replace the word "Democrats" with "Republicans" in all the talking points, most of them still work.

55 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:03:10pm

re: #51 _RememberTonyC

But if the regular folks start seeing their lives improve, Obama will get the credit. And this nebulous "GOP" bogeyman will be discredited due to Obama's success.

That does, of course, carry the very strong assumption that Obama moving more toward 'the center'--read right--will lead to 'regular folks seeing their lives improve'.

56 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:04:35pm

re: #52 Varek Raith

Curious.
What's the lefty version of the TeaParty Movement?

Probably Bob Avakian and the New Communist Synthesis. The difference is, no one has ever the hell heard of Bob Avakian. I only know about him because his twenty-five followers like to show up to rallies in the Bay Area that I'm counterprotesting.

57 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:04:55pm

re: #50 SanFranciscoZionist

I think the point of that post was that no one is surprised. Nor are they necessarily approving.

It is what it is ... Both sides have their scumbags. that's why I never vote based on partisanship, I vote on who i think will do things best. sometimes it's the D and sometimes the R.

58 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:05:03pm

re: #33 _RememberTonyC

Obama's approval ratings will go up even more if he moves to the center, which he has shown he is capable of doing. So if he starts dealing with the biggest problems in a responsible way, he will not only be more popular, he will be a BETTER President.

He's already in the center, if you don't count all the crazies.

The problem is thus:

You have portions of the Republican electorate in America who are uneducated, paranoid, and completely incapable of understanding the basics of how government functions, so trying to please them is madness. They freak out about taxes yet don't understand how TAX BRACKETS FUNCTION. I understood how tax brackets functioned when I was nine years old.

They're not credible, they don't make any sense, they repeat lies like obeisant drones. For purposes of politics, they should be treated like the children they are, and their "ideas" should be discarded as gibberish. See: health care debate.

And Obama will NOT be a better president if he takes these peoples' ideas into account. it's like cooking a meal, and then just tossing a bunch of garbage water into the soup.

59 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:05:51pm

re: #48 EmmmieG

I wonder how many Americans know what drawing and quartering is?

Or keelhauling? (I've heard two different definitions, both unpleasant.)

The rack and thumbscrews they get, mostly from cartoons.

Anyone who saw Braveheart probably knows!

60 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:06:01pm

re: #58 WindUpBird

He's already in the center, if you don't count all the crazies.

The problem is thus:

You have portions of the Republican electorate in America who are uneducated, paranoid, and completely incapable of understanding the basics of how government functions, so trying to please them is madness. They freak out about taxes yet don't understand how TAX BRACKETS FUNCTION. I understood how tax brackets functioned when I was nine years old.

They're not credible, they don't make any sense, they repeat lies like obeisant drones. For purposes of politics, they should be treated like the children they are, and their "ideas" should be discarded as gibberish. See: health care debate.

And Obama will NOT be a better president if he takes these peoples' ideas into account. it's like cooking a meal, and then just tossing a bunch of garbage water into the soup.

There was some big argument about tax brackets that I missed, wasn't there? I keep seeing little references dropped.

61 BishopX  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:06:37pm

re: #47 SanFranciscoZionist

I've been thinking a lot lately about the early twentieth century socialists and the labor movement as a political force. They were very, very radical and they mostly got their collective asses handed to them in on just about every issue. But in doing so they really dragged American discourse to the left. I think the same thing can be said for the hippie and environmental movements of the second half of the twentieth, as those movements have collapsed I think American political thinking has trended rightwards. A conservative in 2010 sounds a lot more like a conservative in 1910 than a conservative in 1970.

I think what really scares me about the tea party is not that they're going to accomplish anything, but that they will redefine what right and left mean in American politics. As someone who is generally on the left fringe already that really worries me.

62 Varek Raith  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:07:44pm

re: #56 SanFranciscoZionist

Probably Bob Avakian and the New Communist Synthesis. The difference is, no one has ever the hell heard of Bob Avakian. I only know about him because his twenty-five followers like to show up to rallies in the Bay Area that I'm counterprotesting.

You're right.
Never heard of them.
:)

63 BishopX  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:08:07pm

re: #60 SanFranciscoZionist

A couple of different posters (DF was a big one) didn't get how progressive taxation worked, it resulted in some amusing flame wars.

64 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:10:25pm

re: #62 Varek Raith

You're right.
Never heard of them.
:)

You're lucky. There's something pathetic about a bunch of grown people pushing a book explaining how their guru has totally fixed Communism so that this time it will work and change America's future for the betterment of all humanity.

You'd pat them, except they're sort of scary.

65 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:10:32pm

re: #52 Varek Raith

Curious.
What's the lefty version of the TeaParty Movement?

There is no exact match in terms of a grass roots movement. I'm not fond of the tea party types. You will find no posts by me extolling their virtues. I have said I prefer moderate dems to the TP types. But I will not sit here and agree that Obama has done a bang up job on the economy. So he needs to show more moderate economic policies to make me happy.

66 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:10:40pm

re: #63 BishopX

A couple of different posters (DF was a big one) didn't get how progressive taxation worked, it resulted in some amusing flame wars.

Thanks. I just saw the fallout.

67 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:11:18pm

re: #55 SanFranciscoZionist

That does, of course, carry the very strong assumption that Obama moving more toward 'the center'--read right--will lead to 'regular folks seeing their lives improve'.

Correct

68 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:11:21pm

re: #60 SanFranciscoZionist

There was some big argument about tax brackets that I missed, wasn't there? I keep seeing little references dropped.

Not so much an argument as a frustrated smackdown by Obdicut and a facepalm by me. It was Satt and Dark Falcon advancing the common lie that your entire income is taxed at the next highest bracket, thereby creating a situation where you can earn more money and then come out behind because you bumped up to the next bracket.

Which of course is a total bald faced Republican lie, of course you are only taxed at the higher rate for the income that falls in that bracket, not your whole income.

I just don't understand how someone can pay taxes for years and not even know the first thing about how they're figured. It's as if I drove a car for years but never knew that the big loud thing between the front wheels was what made it go. :/

69 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:12:06pm

re: #65 _RememberTonyC

There is no exact match in terms of a grass roots movement. I'm not fond of the tea party types. You will find no posts by me extolling their virtues. I have said I prefer moderate dems to the TP types. But I will not sit here and agree that Obama has done a bang up job on the economy. So he needs to show more moderate economic policies to make me happy.

I'd say, he needs to show DIFFERENT economic policies to make you happy. What he's doing right now is not extreme in any way, nor immoderate.

70 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:12:42pm

re: #67 _RememberTonyC

Correct

Ah, but you see, lots of regular people don't agree with that at all. Hence, the complexity of politics in these United States.

71 wrenchwench  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:12:58pm

re: #68 WindUpBird

It's as if I drove a car for years but never knew that the big loud thing between the front wheels was what made it go. :/

Which is probably more common than we want to know.

72 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:13:11pm

re: #61 BishopX

.

I think what really scares me about the tea party is not that they're going to accomplish anything, but that they will redefine what right and left mean in American politics. As someone who is generally on the left fringe already that really worries me.

It doesn't worry me so much because I'm in a town that would literally be the last town in America besides San Francisco to go right wing. it sorta eases the pain, and hey, if America becomes some tea-party rube hell, well, at least the counterculture will be awesome!

73 Varek Raith  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:13:36pm

re: #71 wrenchwench

Which is probably more common than we want to know.

Blue smoke is the magical stuff that makes electronics work.
;)

74 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:14:01pm

re: #71 wrenchwench

Which is probably more common than we want to know.

Oh god that terrifies me

75 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:15:16pm

re: #73 Varek Raith

Blue smoke is the magical stuff that makes electronics work.
;)

YOU LET THE BLUE SMOKE ESCAPE!

76 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:16:18pm

re: #58 WindUpBird

He's already in the center, if you don't count all the crazies.

The problem is thus:

You have portions of the Republican electorate in America who are uneducated, paranoid, and completely incapable of understanding the basics of how government functions, so trying to please them is madness. They freak out about taxes yet don't understand how TAX BRACKETS FUNCTION. I understood how tax brackets functioned when I was nine years old.

They're not credible, they don't make any sense, they repeat lies like obeisant drones. For purposes of politics, they should be treated like the children they are, and their "ideas" should be discarded as gibberish. See: health care debate.

And Obama will NOT be a better president if he takes these peoples' ideas into account. it's like cooking a meal, and then just tossing a bunch of garbage water into the soup.

I guess you're fine with his performance, but I am disappointed in some respects. Obama set the bar high with all his rhetoric and promises and now he has to deliver the goods or he will have problems with the voters. And some of his moves are questionable. My feedback on his job performance is not unfair, although most lizards find it to be. I don't really care.

77 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:16:34pm

re: #63 BishopX

A couple of different posters (DF was a big one) didn't get how progressive taxation worked, it resulted in some amusing flame wars.

satt frustrated me more, anyone who owns a house and has kids, doesn't know how taxes work?

78 Okami  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:16:46pm

re: #73 Varek Raith

Blue smoke is the magical stuff that makes electronics work.
;)

Mine are powered by black smoke, since I always buy the cheap stuff.

79 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:17:11pm

re: #69 SanFranciscoZionist

I'd say, he needs to show DIFFERENT economic policies to make you happy. What he's doing right now is not extreme in any way, nor immoderate.

Moderate and different are both OK terms for it.

80 wrenchwench  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:18:26pm

re: #74 WindUpBird

Oh god that terrifies me

Cyclists aren't as bad as motorists, but a person can spend an awful lot of time with their machine and be totally ignorant of what the parts are doing.

I guess it's the same thing with the human body, which is why charlatanism is always profitable. People are dupes for promises of higher performance.

81 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:18:52pm

We pay tax people to understand this stuff. Not making excuses but the concept of progressive taxation is a relatively complex concept.

82 Okami  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:19:17pm

re: #76 _RememberTonyC

It's not that you're being unfair, it's that you're using the Republican definition of "moderate", which they are deliberately distorting.

83 albusteve  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:20:07pm

re: #80 wrenchwench

Cyclists aren't as bad as motorists, but a person can spend an awful lot of time with their machine and be totally ignorant of what the parts are doing.

I guess it's the same thing with the human body, which is why charlatanism is always profitable. People are dupes for promises of higher performance.

nice BO analogy

84 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:21:07pm

re: #76 _RememberTonyC

I guess you're fine with his performance, but I am disappointed in some respects. Obama set the bar high with all his rhetoric and promises and now he has to deliver the goods or he will have problems with the voters. And some of his moves are questionable. My feedback on his job performance is not unfair, although most lizards find it to be. I don't really care.

I don't find criticism inappropriate--fair is not really relevent here--I'm just reacting to some details such as 'he set the bar high with promises and rhetoric'--unlike most people who run for president?

And yes, of course he has to perform, or lose voters. But 'perform' to him, and many voters, does not mean 'move right'.

So what you're really saying is that you think the economy will improve if the Obama admistration's economic policy veers right. I don't agree, but it's a reasonable statement. I just twitch over how the statement's being packaged.

85 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:21:30pm

re: #70 SanFranciscoZionist

Ah, but you see, lots of regular people don't agree with that at all. Hence, the complexity of politics in these United States.

Okay ... I never said people have to agree with me, but I find some people on this board (not you, BTW) that take it personally if you challenge their beliefs. I will say this ... In my own life I make mostly good decisions because sometimes I use my liberal filter and sometimes my conservative filter. Having both and using both has served me well. I make no apologies for it.

86 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:21:58pm

re: #82 Okami

It's not that you're being unfair, it's that you're using the Republican definition of "moderate", which they are deliberately distorting.

Not true

87 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:22:32pm

re: #76 _RememberTonyC

I guess you're fine with his performance, but I am disappointed in some respects. Obama set the bar high with all his rhetoric and promises and now he has to deliver the goods or he will have problems with the voters. And some of his moves are questionable. My feedback on his job performance is not unfair, although most lizards find it to be. I don't really care.

I'm fine with his performance, yeah!

If you were listening to his rhetoric, great. I wasn't! I actually was checking out his cabinet, his advisors, the noises he was making that weren't stump speeches to college kids. His rhetoric was just a commerical. I saw a moderate guy who wasn't stupid, who could get some stuff through. And he did! So I'm happy.


I hear this argument about his rhetoric versus his performance. Were you real bent out of shape when Bush did the diametric 180 degree opposite of his promise to have a mild foreign policy and no nation building?

I judge a president not by their commercials or by their fiery stump speechs, but by what they do in the office, how they assemble their team, who they surround themselves with, in context, compare and contrast, to other presidents. And he's doing great. He got health care passed in some form, which I didn't think was possible with all the insane muslim racist oh god gubment insanity happening.


The biggest failure so far of the Obama administration is allowing the very wall street scumbags who ruined our economy to basically write their own ticket. We're due for a massive overhaul of our execrable financial "system". It's as septic and corrupt as anything you'll see in Somalia. it's just faster and more sophisticated.

88 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:23:08pm

re: #81 BigPapa

We pay tax people to understand this stuff. Not making excuses but the concept of progressive taxation is a relatively complex concept.

I dunno, WUB gets it and he's an artist.

89 Varek Raith  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:23:26pm

re: #88 Jeff In Ohio

I dunno, WUB gets it and he's an artist.

Zing!
/

90 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:23:33pm

re: #81 BigPapa

We pay tax people to understand this stuff. Not making excuses but the concept of progressive taxation is a relatively complex concept.

It totally is not hard to understand. :(

And I don't excuse anyone who repeats the bullshit GOP talking point on it.

91 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:23:44pm

re: #88 Jeff In Ohio

I dunno, WUB gets it and he's an artist.

Artists have more complicated taxes than people with one salaried job, in my experience.

92 Varek Raith  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:24:18pm

re: #90 WindUpBird

It totally is not hard to understand. :(

And I don't excuse anyone who repeats the bullshit GOP talking point on it.

All I know about tax brackets is that I hope to be in the highest one possible.

93 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:24:20pm

re: #88 Jeff In Ohio

I dunno, WUB gets it and he's an artist.

My mother barely graduated high school, took no algebra, she understands it, she's the one who showed me how to do my own taxes when I was a teenager.

94 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:24:23pm

re: #91 SanFranciscoZionist

Artists have more complicated taxes than people with one salaried job, in my experience.

Sarcasm people.

95 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:24:32pm

re: #58 WindUpBird

They freak out about taxes yet don't understand how TAX BRACKETS FUNCTION.

I'm still shaking my head over that one. Full grown adults ... un-fucking-believeable.

96 wrenchwench  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:24:43pm

re: #83 albusteve

nice BO analogy

Economics is such a "pliable" field that there is plenty of room for charlatans, and it's hard to tell them from the real ones.

97 Okami  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:24:56pm

re: #86 _RememberTonyC

Not true

What's not true? Every time Obama's made a concession to the Republicans, they've just demanded something even farther to the right. Their opinion of a moderate position is somewhere to the right of a Republican under Clinton.

98 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:25:17pm

re: #93 WindUpBird

My mother barely graduated high school, took no algebra, she understands it, she's the one who showed me how to do my own taxes when I was a teenager.

My mother has a college degree and spent 50 years in the kitchen before I discovered she can't do fractions.

20 years of terrible cooking came into focus.

99 Decatur Deb  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:25:23pm

re: #20 Varek Raith

Heh.
Bush went into the twenties...
We were told, "POLLS DON'T MATTER!!11ty".

The Newsweek poll is shaky and not very current. Yesterday Gallup showed an 8-point loss in Prez approval, also not meaningful. For an amazingly long stretch the most credible polls have run about 46% "Approve", 46% "Disapprove", 8% "Huh?".

100 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:26:10pm

re: #84 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't find criticism inappropriate--fair is not really relevent here--I'm just reacting to some details such as 'he set the bar high with promises and rhetoric'--unlike most people who run for president?

And yes, of course he has to perform, or lose voters. But 'perform' to him, and many voters, does not mean 'move right'.

So what you're really saying is that you think the economy will improve if the Obama admistration's economic policy veers right. I don't agree, but it's a reasonable statement. I just twitch over how the statement's being packaged.

I don't mean to frame it in terms of politics. But spending less, not raising taxes as much, and giving the business community a chance to regain it's footing (with the expectations that hiring will increase as a result) does SEEM to be a good idea. And I see it as good judgment and a slight move to the right because almost nobody on the left is recommending it.

101 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:26:50pm

re: #99 Decatur Deb

If Reaganomics is the new center, 46% is the new majority.

102 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:27:58pm

re: #101 Jeff In Ohio

If Reaganomics is the new center, 46% is the new majority.

46% usually is a majority since every poll has the douchey 10% who "Don't know"
//

103 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:28:45pm

re: #91 SanFranciscoZionist

Artists have more complicated taxes than people with one salaried job, in my experience.

That is true! Because anyone who's self-employed has to actually account for everything, and that's why I have an accountant.

I can excuse people who just slip under the radar, who have little income. My nomad stoner artist friends who just don't pay taxes because they already earn so little they just don't care (and would probably receive money back, actually)

I don't excuse anyone who owns property, because there's a great deal of complex taxes (and tax breaks) and complex financial wrangling involved in owning property, far more complex than the concept of tax brackets.

it's like selective intelligence. Oh, I can get a tax break on my mortgage? Suddenly, tax genius! Oh wait, politics? Suddenly completely clueless!

104 Okami  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:28:47pm

re: #101 Jeff In Ohio

If Reaganomics is the new center, 46% is the new majority.

Unless you're in the Senate, in which case it's still 61%

105 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:28:53pm

re: #102 rwdflynavy

46% usually is a majority since every poll has the douchey 10% who "Don't know"
//

Who could probably answer a series of difficult questions about reality shows perfectly.

106 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:29:11pm

re: #97 Okami

What's not true? Every time Obama's made a concession to the Republicans, they've just demanded something even farther to the right. Their opinion of a moderate position is somewhere to the right of a Republican under Clinton.

What is not true is what you said i was doing in that post. I am a right leaning independent who is actually registered as a democrat. I have never been registered as a republican, but I support some of their positions.

107 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:29:44pm

re: #98 Jeff In Ohio

My mother has a college degree and spent 50 years in the kitchen before I discovered she can't do fractions.

20 years of terrible cooking came into focus.


ahahaha oh nooo :(

108 Decatur Deb  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:30:39pm

re: #99 Decatur Deb

Gallup post its dailies at 1300 hrs our time. Just checked, and 3 of yesterday's 8 point loss has settled back. Radical shifts tend to be outliers.

109 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:31:00pm

re: #92 Varek Raith

All I know about tax brackets is that I hope to be in the highest one possible.

Yeah, and I bet we'll just fall to one knee and weep for how tough our taxes are

OH GOD HOW WILL I AFFORD THE CORVETTE NOW!?!?!?!

110 Okami  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:31:33pm

re: #100 _RememberTonyC

I don't mean to frame it in terms of politics. But spending less, not raising taxes as much, and giving the business community a chance to regain it's footing (with the expectations that hiring will increase as a result) does SEEM to be a good idea. And I see it as good judgment and a slight move to the right because almost nobody on the left is recommending it.

But Obama had a tax cut for pretty much everyone, and pretty much all of his spending has been to fix the collapse he inherited from Bush. He gave a directed tax cut to small businesses. He's doing what you and the Republicans are asking, and everyone still asks him to move further right.

111 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:31:46pm

re: #60 SanFranciscoZionist

There was some big argument about tax brackets that I missed, wasn't there? I keep seeing little references dropped.

This thread, the fun begins around comment 85.

112 Varek Raith  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:32:17pm

re: #109 WindUpBird

Yeah, and I bet we'll just fall to one knee and weep for how tough our taxes are

OH GOD HOW WILL I AFFORD THE CORVETTE NOW!?!?!?!

Forget the Corvette.
I'm buying an Aston Martin.
:)

113 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:32:31pm

re: #89 Varek Raith

Zing!
/

I'm rubbing my hands in glee for all the business deductions this year, I'm in the process this year of replacing my entire studio computer with a big badass multi-monitor beast

114 engineer cat  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:32:57pm

digby

Eight False Things The Public “Knows” Prior To Election Day

Here are eight of the biggest myths that are out there:

1) President Obama tripled the deficit.
2) President Obama raised taxes, which hurt the economy.
3) President Obama bailed out the banks.
4) The stimulus didn't work.
5) Businesses will hire if they get tax cuts.
6) Health care reform costs $1 trillion.
7) Social Security is a Ponzi scheme, is "going broke," people live longer, fewer workers per retiree, etc.
8) Government spending takes money out of the economy.

(the reality behind these myths can be found at the linked page)

115 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:33:41pm

And now for something completely different:

Nina Simone, Harlem Festival 1969

Youtube Video
116 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:34:17pm

re: #112 Varek Raith

Forget the Corvette.
I'm buying an Aston Martin.
:)

I love those! But it's just not me. :D

117 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:34:44pm

re: #114 engineer dog

I'm favoriting this :D

118 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:35:14pm

re: #111 goddamnedfrank

That was fucking classic.

119 Varek Raith  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:35:35pm

re: #116 WindUpBird

I love those! But it's just not me. :D

Tanks of the highway!

120 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:35:46pm

re: #110 Okami

But Obama had a tax cut for pretty much everyone, and pretty much all of his spending has been to fix the collapse he inherited from Bush. He gave a directed tax cut to small businesses. He's doing what you and the Republicans are asking, and everyone still asks him to move further right.

because it's not about policy, it's about the football game of politics! Policy is boring! Facts are boring!

121 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:36:13pm

re: #114 engineer dog

The biggest thing to me is: Why do people not know they're ignorant? Why do they think that they're well-informed on these issues? I can get being ignorant, but I can't get thinking that they know things.

Is it as a simple as "They believe the partisan blowhards"? Is that really all there is to it? Or is it more that they hear two different stories, and they choose to believe the one that they want to believe?

I can't really make sense of it. To me, being an adult is trying to figure out what's true, not what I want to be true.

122 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:36:20pm

re: #119 Varek Raith

Tanks of the highway!

There would definitely be a battle-wagon winnebago if I went up a few brackets, that's a thing I'd own o_o

123 BishopX  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:36:44pm

re: #110 Okami

Many corporations have also been posting profits for the past 12 months. It isn't increased costs that are hurting employment, it's lack of demand and uncertainty. The only thing Obama can do about the first is a second stimulus program. The problem is that business leaders are people too, and if they're convinced that the economy is going into the crapper, then it will.

124 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:36:51pm

re: #110 Okami

But Obama had a tax cut for pretty much everyone, and pretty much all of his spending has been to fix the collapse he inherited from Bush. He gave a directed tax cut to small businesses. He's doing what you and the Republicans are asking, and everyone still asks him to move further right.

Maybe he is on the right track, but needs to do a bit more ... I want the guy to succeed, but I think he needs to tweak a few things in order to be more successful. If he tries something a bit further "right" and gets better results, that is good for all of us.

I gotta say goodbye for now ... My son needs some help with his college applications.

125 engineer cat  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:37:04pm

re: #117 WindUpBird

:-)

126 Okami  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:38:26pm

re: #124 _RememberTonyC

And I guess that's the difference. I'd like him to try something further to the left and see how that works. This country hasn't seen liberal economic policy since Clinton, and we all remember how that worked out.

Good luck with the applications.

127 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:40:16pm

re: #121 Obdicut

I suspect it's as simple as two things:

1) they believe their own culture, their friends, their family, their traditional "understanding" of government, which is full of crazy myths, half-truths and the like.

2) the partisan blowhards are the reference point, they're the ones putting out fresh meat, new material, new memes, new slogans, new arguments, new outrageous outrages. So you get the sorta loudmouth type-A conservative dad in the family who listens to the partisan blowhard who makes all the right noises to play to his fears, and because he's the big dog of the house, everyone just sorta believes what conservative dad says, and so on and so forth.

128 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:40:51pm

re: #121 Obdicut

The biggest thing to me is: Why do people not know they're ignorant? Why do they think that they're well-informed on these issues? I can get being ignorant, but I can't get thinking that they know things.

Is it as a simple as "They believe the partisan blowhards"? Is that really all there is to it? Or is it more that they hear two different stories, and they choose to believe the one that they want to believe?

I can't really make sense of it. To me, being an adult is trying to figure out what's true, not what I want to be true.

Hear the truth, believe the lie. There really are only two explanations:

Team Evil vs. Team Stupid

129 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:41:24pm

re: #127 WindUpBird

And instead of partisan blowhards 2) could be so-con preacher as well. All the same people, same personalities, same mechanism, only it happens in a pew instead of the driver's seat of a Yukon.

130 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:42:06pm

re: #127 WindUpBird

I suspect it's as simple as two things:

1) they believe their own culture, their friends, their family, their traditional "understanding" of government, which is full of crazy myths, half-truths and the like.

2) the partisan blowhards are the reference point, they're the ones putting out fresh meat, new material, new memes, new slogans, new arguments, new outrageous outrages. So you get the sorta loudmouth type-A conservative dad in the family who listens to the partisan blowhard who makes all the right noises to play to his fears, and because he's the big dog of the house, everyone just sorta believes what conservative dad says, and so on and so forth.

Or, in some families I know, rebel, turn as ridiculously lefty as possible, and never again believe anything said by a white man/a guy in a business suit/any Republican because these people remind them of Dad. But that's more a family problem than a political one.

131 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:42:25pm

re: #126 Okami

And I guess that's the difference. I'd like him to try something further to the left and see how that works. This country hasn't seen liberal economic policy since Clinton, and we all remember how that worked out.

This forever.

132 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:42:53pm

re: #33 _RememberTonyC

Obama's approval ratings will go up even more if he moves to the center, which he has shown he is capable of doing. So if he starts dealing with the biggest problems in a responsible way, he will not only be more popular, he will be a BETTER President.

Problem is, is that for a fair number of people the political center is about where Augusto Pinochet sat on the political spectrum.

I'm not sure we want Obama to go there.

133 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:43:34pm

re: #130 SanFranciscoZionist

Or, in some families I know, rebel, turn as ridiculously lefty as possible, and never again believe anything said by a white man/a guy in a business suit/any Republican because these people remind them of Dad. But that's more a family problem than a political one.

hahaha yes :D

And those are the people who move to the bay and Portland and Seattle, and are estranged from their conservative parents!

(I know so many people like this, not suprisingly, many of them are in fandom, some of them satisfyingly enough are making like triple what their parents are, after being rejected by them utterly)

134 Decatur Deb  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:44:05pm

Politico writer suggests that there are so many tightening Senate races that control of the chamber might conceivably not be known for several weeks.

[Link: www.politico.com...]

Oh Fucking Joy!

135 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:46:22pm

re: #134 Decatur Deb

Politico writer suggests that there are so many tightening Senate races that control of the chamber might conceivably not be known for several weeks.

[Link: www.politico.com...]

Oh Fucking Joy!

I got my popcorn and my Bugles

136 Okami  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:46:53pm

re: #131 WindUpBird

I can't understand why so many Americans are so bad at pattern recognition. Not seeing how much Obama is helping is reasonable, since everything really fell apart on Bush's last day, people don't seem to be able to remember that. But look at Clinton, then look at Bush. How can you not say, "Hey, let's give the guys that did a good job another chance?".

137 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:47:00pm

re: #48 EmmmieG

I wonder how many Americans know what drawing and quartering is?

Or keelhauling? (I've heard two different definitions, both unpleasant.)

The rack and thumbscrews they get, mostly from cartoons.

Broken on the wheel is another one popular in the past but almost unknown now.

Thank God.

138 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:48:35pm

re: #88 Jeff In Ohio

I dunno, WUB gets it and he's an artist.

I get it to but I didn't in my 20's until somebody explained it to me.

I'm in another profession where I get paid to know and nobody wants to know, unless they're reviewing a bill or want to pay less then they're suddenly an expert!

The concept of progressive taxation is complex, it's harder for people to understand, therefore, it's easier to exploit that misunderstanding.

139 engineer cat  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:50:12pm

re: #121 Obdicut

The biggest thing to me is: Why do people not know they're ignorant? Why do they think that they're well-informed on these issues? I can get being ignorant, but I can't get thinking that they know things.

Is it as a simple as "They believe the partisan blowhards"? Is that really all there is to it? Or is it more that they hear two different stories, and they choose to believe the one that they want to believe?

I can't really make sense of it. To me, being an adult is trying to figure out what's true, not what I want to be true.

i've spent a considerable amount of time arguing with people on right wing blogs (hardly any will allow "leftists" to comment, but some do)

their fixed ideas are of paramount importance to them, and they have developed a powerful defense mechanism against facts or counter arguments. they use every logical fallacy in the books but think of them as masterful debating strategies, and their idea of 'debate' is to deny, deny, deny, push away, push away, push away. they are pitifully, tragically undereducated. people like the koch bros are only making it worse by feeding them lies and fallacies

and ideologue is a person who believes that if facts or logic contradict their ideas, facts and logic must be wrong, even if the facts have just fell on their heads and cracked their skulls

this is the tea party

140 wrenchwench  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:50:39pm

re: #138 BigPapa

The concept of progressive taxation is complex, it's harder for people to understand, therefore, it's easier to exploit that misunderstanding.

Which is a clue. Anyone who is opposed to good education for the masses probably wants to fleece those masses.

141 Cheechako  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:54:14pm

re: #110 Okami

But Obama had a tax cut for pretty much everyone, and pretty much all of his spending has been to fix the collapse he inherited from Bush. He gave a directed tax cut to small businesses. He's doing what you and the Republicans are asking, and everyone still asks him to move further right.

I have a problem calling some of Obama's decisions a "tax cut". He changed the with-holding rates for federal taxes and called it a tax cut. All this did was to lower the amount being with held from employees paychecks which may cause many tax payers to have to pay additional dollars come April 15th. Yes, it does put more money back into the paycheck to be spent right now but in the long term it could have a detrimental effect for many taxpayers.

142 sagehen  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:54:41pm

re: #120 WindUpBird

because it's not about policy, it's about the football game of politics! Policy is boring! Facts are boring!

Once heard at my house:

"Honey, is it supposed to be a foul when he does this with his elbow?"

"Depends. Did a Celtic do it to a Laker, or a Laker did it to a Celtic?"

143 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:55:17pm

re: #90 WindUpBird

It totally is not hard to understand. :(

And I don't excuse anyone who repeats the bullshit GOP talking point on it.

I didn't say it was hard to understand, I said it was a relatively complex concept, sorta like the difference in retail sales regarding margin/points. It's not rocket science or AGW, but it's a step up in complexity from the base.

'I pay X% on income' is simple.
'I pay X% on my income to level X, I pay X% on income to Level Y' is a little bit more complex.

I'm not surprised that many people don't understand this especially if they're working a job and have a family and pay somebody to do their taxes. This is not an excuse and is no comment about the GOP, but my point is being shocked or aggravated that nobody else knows as much your issue as theirs.

144 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:55:51pm

re: #97 Okami

What's not true? Every time Obama's made a concession to the Republicans, they've just demanded something even farther to the right. Their opinion of a moderate position is somewhere to the right of a Republican under Clinton.

That's why I regard the Tea Party and the GOP as revolutionaries. Nothing ever satisfies a revolutionary save complete and total victory over their enemies. Which is anyone who differs even a micron from their beliefs. As I've said before the nearest historical analog, in my opinion, is the Jacobins or Bolsheviks.

145 Okami  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:58:13pm

re: #141 Cheechako

I agree, I wouldn't call that a tax cut. I was refering specificly to his tax credit for payroll taxes.

146 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:59:13pm

re: #141 Cheechako

True, but not for every tax payer. Here's the relevant IRS page

[Link: www.irs.gov...]

Obama also expanded the Earned income Credit.

147 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 12:59:21pm

re: #143 BigPapa

I didn't say it was hard to understand, I said it was a relatively complex concept, sorta like the difference in retail sales regarding margin/points. It's not rocket science or AGW, but it's a step up in complexity from the base.

'I pay X% on income' is simple.
'I pay X% on my income to level X, I pay X% on income to Level Y' is a little bit more complex.

I'm not surprised that many people don't understand this especially if they're working a job and have a family and pay somebody to do their taxes. This is not an excuse and is no comment about the GOP, but my point is being shocked or aggravated that nobody else knows as much your issue as theirs.

I have no problem with people not knowing how taxes work. I don't know all sorts of shit I should know. I don't even mind if people don't care.

But (having read the thread in question), when people who have aggressively bitched and moaned about tax policy and other people's opinions on it turn out to simply not get how we calculate income tax, it does take me aback somewhat.

And it irks me, as it does when people complain about how bad "Obamacare" is, and then turn out to believe that the whole country is actually slated to lose their private healthcare and go on a single national plan.

And in both cases when these people, instead of absorbing the new information go on the attack...I get sort of twitchy.

148 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:01:42pm

re: #138 BigPapa

I get it to but I didn't in my 20's until somebody explained it to me.

We're talking about people over thirty, who have paid personal income taxes for over a decade, who consider themselves intelligent, well grounded financial conservatives with an effective grasp of reality. It's not that hard to look at the amount TurboTax or whatever says you owe before deductions, divide it by your total taxable income, and see that the resulting percentage doesn't come close to matching one's nominal highest bracket. It's not a difficult subject if it can be checked with basic elementary school level arithmetic. Some people are either just lazy, or don't want to know the truth, or both.

149 Okami  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:01:56pm

re: #147 SanFranciscoZionist

The problem isn't ignorance. It's the combination of ignorance and adamance.

150 sagehen  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:02:45pm

re: #141 Cheechako

I have a problem calling some of Obama's decisions a "tax cut". He changed the with-holding rates for federal taxes and called it a tax cut. All this did was to lower the amount being with held from employees paychecks which may cause many tax payers to have to pay additional dollars come April 15th. Yes, it does put more money back into the paycheck to be spent right now but in the long term it could have a detrimental effect for many taxpayers.

NO! That is NOT TRUE.

He cut the rate for a year or two ($400 for single people, $800 for couples), but instead of sending out "stimulus checks" like Bush did, he cut the withholding so that people get a little more in every paycheck -- because economists said sending out checks people will just bank it instead of spend it, and it's more stimulative this way.

151 Decatur Deb  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:04:23pm

BBL

152 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:04:24pm

re: #150 sagehen

NO! That is NOT TRUE.

He cut the rate for a year or two ($400 for single people, $800 for couples), but instead of sending out "stimulus checks" like Bush did, he cut the withholding so that people get a little more in every paycheck -- because economists said sending out checks people will just bank it instead of spend it, and it's more stimulative this way.

Hell, when Bush sent me my checks, I cashed 'em and spent 'em.

But I am perpetually broke as hell.

153 Okami  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:04:30pm

re: #150 sagehen

Thank you for knowing what's going on. This is why I love this site.

154 engineer cat  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:04:53pm

re: #147 SanFranciscoZionist

I have no problem with people not knowing how taxes work. I don't know all sorts of shit I should know. I don't even mind if people don't care.

But (having read the thread in question), when people who have aggressively bitched and moaned about tax policy and other people's opinions on it turn out to simply not get how we calculate income tax, it does take me aback somewhat.

And it irks me, as it does when people complain about how bad "Obamacare" is, and then turn out to believe that the whole country is actually slated to lose their private healthcare and go on a single national plan.

And in both cases when these people, instead of absorbing the new information go on the attack...I get sort of twitchy.

i wonder what happens when perhaps thirty percent of a country firmly believes in so many things that just aren't so

155 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:05:16pm

re: #143 BigPapa


'I pay X% on income' is simple.
'I pay X% on my income to level X, I pay X% on income to Level Y' is a little bit more complex.
.

That's an absolutely minimal level of complexity, though, and the output can be summed up easily as "Earning more will never make you bring home less than you were before. Ever."

156 Okami  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:05:41pm

re: #154 engineer dog

i wonder what happens when perhaps thirty percent of a country firmly believes in so many things that just aren't so

The Tea Party gets elected.

157 Decatur Deb  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:06:14pm

re: #152 SanFranciscoZionist

Hell, when Bush sent me my checks, I cashed 'em and spent 'em.

But I am perpetually broke as hell.

I put one windfall check to good use, sending the exact amount off to the Obama campaign. I have an evil side....

158 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:07:09pm

re: #150 sagehen

As the IRS page points out, it is potentially true. There could be people making over $75 for individuals and $150k for marrieds who could see a reduction in the taxes they receive and/or actually owe something.

However, for middle and lower class wage earners, it was a plus, like the EIC.

159 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:08:04pm

re: #147 SanFranciscoZionist

I have no problem with people not knowing how taxes work. I don't know all sorts of shit I should know. I don't even mind if people don't care.

But (having read the thread in question), when people who have aggressively bitched and moaned about tax policy and other people's opinions on it turn out to simply not get how we calculate income tax, it does take me aback somewhat.

And it irks me, as it does when people complain about how bad "Obamacare" is, and then turn out to believe that the whole country is actually slated to lose their private healthcare and go on a single national plan.

And in both cases when these people, instead of absorbing the new information go on the attack...I get sort of twitchy.

I agree with that: you have a right to not know (and not be subject to the scorn of Wind Up Bird) but once you start debating tax policy you should understand the fundamentals. That's reasonable.

160 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:08:15pm

re: #158 Jeff In Ohio

As the IRS page points out, it is potentially true. There could be people making over $75 for individuals and $150k for marrieds who could see a reduction in the taxes refund they receive and/or actually owe something.

However, for middle and lower class wage earners, it was a plus, like the EIC.

PIMF

161 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:09:00pm

re: #159 BigPapa

I agree with that: you have a right to not know (and not be subject to the scorn of Wind Up Bird) but once you start debating tax policy you should understand the fundamentals. That's reasonable.

Or at least go into the conversation with an open mind and not a CLASS WAR!!11!! battle flag.

162 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:10:05pm

re: #154 engineer dog

i wonder what happens when perhaps thirty percent of a country firmly believes in so many things that just aren't so

1. Advertisers for products that only stupid or gullible people would buy see a large market share and buy time on FOX.

2. Republicans win the House.

163 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:10:49pm

re: #19 SanFranciscoZionist

Doesn't matter. Everyone know Obama is "The Won" and is worshipped by all moonbats as Lord. If his approval ratings are less than 110 percent, or even lower than they once were, this means he has FAILED, and the nation has turned on him. It's over.

///

Heh. Well, I do hope the GOP has a 1994 grade victory. But, I feel sadly certain they will not be able to use it as well.

164 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:12:15pm

re: #155 Obdicut

That's an absolutely minimal level of complexity, though, and the output can be summed up easily as "Earning more will never make you bring home less than you were before. Ever."

True, but the reality is much less than it's stated. You actually bring home less as a percentage of your total income but still will bring home more money. But it's not a huge amount.

The debate point that I don't want to make x over this cliff because I'll make less money is weak sauce. Literally speaking it may be true, practically speaking it's not.

165 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:13:27pm

re: #161 Jeff In Ohio

Or at least go into the conversation with an open mind and not a CLASS WAR!!11!! battle flag.

I learn stuff here all the time.

166 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:14:05pm

re: #163 Dark_Falcon

Heh. Well, I do hope the GOP has a 1994 grade victory. But, I feel sadly certain they will not be able to use it as well.

That's my fear as well. I wouldn't mind an influx of Republicans so much if I thought the new class would be high quality. Most of them seem surreally bad.

167 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:14:09pm

re: #163 Dark_Falcon

They don't want to use it 'as well'. They have shown no desire to engage with actual fiscal policy, in the least.

Did you see this thread?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Do you think wasting time and money teaching creationism in schools is fiscally responsible?

168 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:15:24pm

re: #161 Jeff In Ohio

Or at least go into the conversation with an open mind and not a CLASS WAR!!11!! battle flag.

I've been guilty of that in a previous life, back in my early 20's under the influence of pundits. It took years of therapy and excessive drinking to help make it through.

It wasn't all bad: drove my mom nuts!

169 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:15:32pm

re: #164 BigPapa

Yes. But I think that the GOP and libertarian-style conservatives, by repeatedly saying that higher taxes 'punish' the rich for earning more, have helped to facilitate this massive ignorance about progressive taxation. Another reason why cheap phrases are not a substitute for actual knowledge.

170 engineer cat  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:15:58pm

if the tea party has its way, in a few years republicans won't exist any more

171 Okami  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:18:23pm

re: #170 engineer dog

if the tea party has its way, in a few years republicans won't exist any more

One can hope.

172 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:20:57pm

re: #169 Obdicut

Yes. But I think that the GOP and libertarian-style conservatives, by repeatedly saying that higher taxes 'punish' the rich for earning more, have helped to facilitate this massive ignorance about progressive taxation. Another reason why cheap phrases are not a substitute for actual knowledge.

The GOP has no chance of making an intelligent case to the masses on taxation. Populist rhetoric about 'punishing the rich' makes me grimace and frustrates me that an reasoned debate is no possible. I don't agree with progressive taxation but it's not as evil as it's made out to be and with nuanced laws and write offs, there's some mitigation to it.

With the current population of GOP 'thinkers' in charge, the poor would have their taxes increased because they use social services more. (small case worrisome wry) lol!

173 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:29:22pm

re: #167 Obdicut

Yeah, I saw it. I actually have know Bill Brady is a creationist for 5 months. I resolved back then that it would not prevent me from voting for him. It's worth noting that he doesn't propose forcing the teaching of ID, but wants to allow the option. I disagree, but I think consider it a matter of secondary import.

174 allegro  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:31:12pm

re: #173 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, I saw it. I actually have know Bill Brady is a creationist for 5 months. I resolved back then that it would not prevent me from voting for him. It's worth noting that he doesn't propose forcing the teaching of ID, but wants to allow the option. I disagree, but I think consider it a matter of secondary import.

What in his policies do you like and find worthy of your vote?

175 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:31:28pm

re: #173 Dark_Falcon

That wasn't the question I asked, DF.

Do you think spending time and money teaching creationism in schools is fiscally responsible?

176 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:38:44pm

re: #175 Obdicut

That wasn't the question I asked, DF.

Do you think spending time and money teaching creationism in schools is fiscally responsible?

I think it's a bad use of money, so no. But Brady isn't actually going to be spending state funds on this (unlike Texas and California, Illinois does not buy textbooks at the state level), so it doesn't really go against him. I'd rather localities not waste money this way, though.

177 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:45:08pm

re: #176 Dark_Falcon

But Brady isn't actually going to be spending state funds on this (unlike Texas and California, Illinois does not buy textbooks at the state level), so it doesn't really go against him.

How on earth do you figure that a Governor favoring creationism in the classroom isn't going to have any effect?

I've just read through Brady's economic plans.

He has a lot of tax cuts. He details no actual spending cuts. He has quite a lot of additional spending in the form of tax credits and new bureaucracies.

How is he planning on paying for those tax cuts and new bureaucracies?

178 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 1:48:56pm

re: #173 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, I saw it. I actually have know Bill Brady is a creationist for 5 months. I resolved back then that it would not prevent me from voting for him. It's worth noting that he doesn't propose forcing the teaching of ID, but wants to allow the option. I disagree, but I think consider it a matter of secondary import.

What are the matters of primary import to you, his opposition to women's freedom of reproductive choice even in cases of rape and incest, his rejection of the science of AGW, or that as a financial conservative he plays to your own flawed recent understanding of how tax brackets work?

Or is it just that he's not part of the nebulous "dem machine" abstract boogeyman that seems to terrify you so?

179 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 2:07:15pm

re: #177 Obdicut

How on earth do you figure that a Governor favoring creationism in the classroom isn't going to have any effect?

I've just read through Brady's economic plans.

He has a lot of tax cuts. He details no actual spending cuts. He has quite a lot of additional spending in the form of tax credits and new bureaucracies.

How is he planning on paying for those tax cuts and new bureaucracies?

By providing a job creation friendly state, Brady will increase revenues. He's not going to provide major information on what to cut, to avoid giving the Dems a target.

180 allegro  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 2:09:04pm

re: #179 Dark_Falcon

LOL, the old "it's a secret!" Elect me if you want to find out!"

Does anyone really fall for than anymore?

181 allegro  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 2:09:59pm

re: #180 allegro

Does anyone really fall for than that anymore?

pimf

182 Okami  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 2:11:42pm

re: #179 Dark_Falcon

By providing a job creation friendly state, Brady will increase revenues. He's not going to provide major information on what to cut, to avoid giving the Dems a target.

So, he's not going to say what he would cut, because it would be used as a reason to not vote for him? Isn't that the same as saying, "You're not going to like what I'm going to do, so just don't ask about it"?

183 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 2:14:55pm

re: #179 Dark_Falcon

By providing a job creation friendly state, Brady will increase revenues. He's not going to provide major information on what to cut, to avoid giving the Dems a target.

So in other words, he's hoping that revenues will increase, but otherwise has no plan.

That is really not fiscally responsible.

Even if you think he does have a seecrit plan on what to cut, how do you know that it is a responsible plan that cuts things in an intelligent manner?

184 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 2:15:05pm

re: #180 allegro

LOL, the old "it's a secret!" Elect me if you want to find out!"

Does anyone really fall for than anymore?

The basic problem is the influence of the public sector unions. Giving specific targeted agencies would be used by the unions to fire up their members and for Democratic attack ads.

(Note: That is not a slam on the unions. I'm just describing the actions they would take.

185 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 2:16:51pm

re: #184 Dark_Falcon

Have you ever considered that perhaps he has absolutely no clue on what he's actually going to cut-- if he is actually going to cut anything?

186 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 2:19:07pm

re: #185 Obdicut

Have you ever considered that perhaps he has absolutely no clue on what he's actually going to cut-- if he is actually going to cut anything?

No, I think he has an idea. But he doesn't know the true state of things yet, so he's going to wait till he knows before deciding what to cut.

187 Okami  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 2:22:59pm

re: #184 Dark_Falcon

The basic problem is the influence of the public sector unions. Giving specific targeted agencies would be used by the unions to fire up their members and for Democratic attack ads.

(Note: That is not a slam on the unions. I'm just describing the actions they would take.

But for those attack ads to work, wouldn't the cuts have to be unpopular?

188 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 2:24:39pm

Hey SFZ -- guess who i just stood next to today at a rally in downtown Oakland? RICHARD BECKER!!! He didn't recognize me. :)

189 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 2:25:25pm

re: #186 Dark_Falcon

No, I think he has an idea. But he doesn't know the true state of things yet, so he's going to wait till he knows before deciding what to cut.

You realize that those two statements actually contradict each other, right? If he doesn't know the 'true state of things', then he hasn't actually got an idea of what he's going to cut.

I respect your right to vote for whoever you want, Dark, and you can vote by whatever criteria you'd like. But I think it's important for you to be honest with yourself about the qualities of the person you're voting for.

You're voting for someone who wants abortions banned in all circumstances where the mother's health isn't in danger. So, a fifteen year old girl raped by her father, he would favor forcing her to have the child.

He wants creationism taught in schools.

He wants to amend the state constitution to deny rights to gays.

He has a huge swath of tax cuts he wants to implement, as well as a broad store of tax credits and new bureaucracies, but has no actual plan to pay for them. This violates the only part of his economic plan I like-- which is that any new spending would have to have measurable outputs for success and be funded. The 'measurable' part he fails to apply to tax cuts, and the 'be funded' part he fails to apply to tax credits, or the new bureaucracies he wants to start.

That is what you are voting for. You are also, apparently, voting for him having a secret plan to fix the budget that he can't reveal, but that you have confidence in, despite his previous errors of judgement on financial reform and the hypocrisy of demanding all new spending be funded without explaining how he will fund his own.

190 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 2:35:20pm

re: #189 Obdicut

What would you have me do, vote for Quinn? That voting to keep Michael Madigan in the driver's seat and that's been an utter disaster. Brady is the man running against the crew that has lead Illinois into dire straights. Was he my pick in the primaries? No, I voted for Andy McKenna. Upstate voters like myself split our votes three ways, which gave Brady the win. He's what I've got, and thus the man I'm voting to support.

191 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 2:35:31pm

re: #188 eclectic infidel

Hey SFZ -- guess who i just stood next to today at a rally in downtown Oakland? RICHARD BECKER!!! He didn't recognize me. :)

:)

192 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 2:37:37pm

re: #191 SanFranciscoZionist

:)

That's probably just as well.

193 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 2:41:18pm

re: #190 Dark_Falcon

Yes, I would like you to vote for the person who would not force a fifteen year old rape victim to have her rapists baby.

For me, moral and ethical issues outweight dubious claims of fiscal superiority.

Most of all, I want you to be honest about what it is you're supporting. You aren't supporting anyone who has demonstrated that they will be fiscally responsible, or that they have any actual plan to be fiscally responsible. You are voting against someone you believe to be fiscally irresponsible. That would be all well and good, if there was any actual evidence that Brady is better. There is not.

Given that there is no reason to believe Brady will be any economically superior to Quinn, I think that the terrible anti-science attitude of Brady shoudl be enough for you to vote against him. We have enough scientific ignorance in this country. Brady's election will further legitimize it, and further erode the US's superiority over other nations in science and technology. Fiscally,i n the long run, the anti-science attitudes of people like Brady are the worst possible thing for the country, and for Illinois.

194 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 2:41:41pm

re: #192 SanFranciscoZionist

That's probably just as well.

Yeah, though I'm not one of the 'key figures' of our group either so even if there had been a counter demo, say, last week in SF, I still don't think he'd recognize me. It was easy to blend in as well, just clap a few times, accept literature, smile and nod at the zombies. *burp* The Berkeley communists were there, I recognized them immediately but again, and fortunately, I was just another face in the crowd. I saw several Arabs there from past rallies but I didn't see any tables from orgs such as AROC or Al-Awda, which is good.

195 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 2:47:39pm

re: #194 eclectic infidel

Yeah, though I'm not one of the 'key figures' of our group either so even if there had been a counter demo, say, last week in SF, I still don't think he'd recognize me. It was easy to blend in as well, just clap a few times, accept literature, smile and nod at the zombies. *burp* The Berkeley communists were there, I recognized them immediately but again, and fortunately, I was just another face in the crowd. I saw several Arabs there from past rallies but I didn't see any tables from orgs such as AROC or Al-Awda, which is good.

It is. I really, really, resent those groups' ability to attach to general lefty politics in our area, and somehow get swept into a general category of 'oppressed suffering brown peoples of the world'.

I should probably get over it. It's been going on since the late sixties at least.

196 jamesfirecat  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 2:51:31pm

re: #186 Dark_Falcon

No, I think he has an idea. But he doesn't know the true state of things yet, so he's going to wait till he knows before deciding what to cut.

Dark this is a weaksauce argument and you have to know it.

If you're afraid to say what you're running for why should I expect you to have the conviction to actually do something once you're elected?

///Besides, it's not like those unions aren't gonna vote dem anyway....

197 jamesfirecat  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 2:56:07pm

re: #190 Dark_Falcon

What would you have me do, vote for Quinn? That voting to keep Michael Madigan in the driver's seat and that's been an utter disaster. Brady is the man running against the crew that has lead Illinois into dire straights. Was he my pick in the primaries? No, I voted for Andy McKenna. Upstate voters like myself split our votes three ways, which gave Brady the win. He's what I've got, and thus the man I'm voting to support.

You could follow the GOP's advice for Latino's and stay home until both sides provide better candidates.

(Half sarc)

198 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 3:01:01pm

re: #195 SanFranciscoZionist

It is. I really, really, resent those groups' ability to attach to general lefty politics in our area, and somehow get swept into a general category of 'oppressed suffering brown peoples of the world'.

I should probably get over it. It's been going on since the late sixties at least.

AROC has been very successful infiltrating and aligning itself with community outreach projects in immigrant and poor neighborhoods in both the City and Oakland. We know they are also aligning themselves with Asian groups, have speakers go to high schools in the City, and work with gay and lesbian groups as well. I would like to think that the local Jewish community of organizations (JCRC, JCC, etc.) are aware and are moving to counter this activity, but I have this sinking feeling that they simply don't care.

199 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 3:13:31pm

re: #198 eclectic infidel

AROC has been very successful infiltrating and aligning itself with community outreach projects in immigrant and poor neighborhoods in both the City and Oakland. We know they are also aligning themselves with Asian groups, have speakers go to high schools in the City, and work with gay and lesbian groups as well. I would like to think that the local Jewish community of organizations (JCRC, JCC, etc.) are aware and are moving to counter this activity, but I have this sinking feeling that they simply don't care.

The Bay Area's Jewish community, even at the 'organized' levels, are simultaneously too complacent and too conflicted about Israel to take this seriously.

200 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 3:15:01pm

re: #197 jamesfirecat

You could follow the GOP's advice for Latino's and stay home until both sides provide better candidates.

(Half sarc)

Illinois cannot wait. We need to cut the machine back NOW, not four years from now. If that means electing Bill Brady, then that's a chance I'm willing to take. If I'm wrong, then I accept the blame for my decisions.

201 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 3:16:05pm

re: #200 Dark_Falcon

What does that mean, though, accepting blame for your actions?

202 jamesfirecat  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 3:19:16pm

re: #201 Obdicut

What does that mean, though, accepting blame for your actions?

Hopefully it means that if Bill Bradley wins and things don't get noticeably better Dark will pull a "D" lever next election regardless of if the guy running is part of the "machine" or not so long as he's more sane than the Republican running....

203 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 3:19:49pm

re: #201 Obdicut

What does that mean, though, accepting blame for your actions?

It means what you and the others here decide it should mean.

204 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 3:28:32pm

re: #203 Dark_Falcon

It means what you and the others here decide it should mean.

I have no interest in placing blame or anything else on you. I want you to think about your stances based on objective fact and not on ideology. Teddy Roosevelt came out of a Democratic 'machine' and he is one of the greatest presidents we ever had.

You're a good man, but you don't examine your stances based on rationality. The only thing I want is for you to free yourself from whatever it is traps you, and examine things carefully.

For example, in the next thread, you said:

That is why I used the phrase "objectively pro-Islamist Terror". An action is objectively pro-terror if its primary effect is to strengthen the Islamist enemy

The GOP denial of AGW has a primary effect of strengthening the Islamic enemy. The money that funds terror, that funds the propaganda against Israel, is money from oil that the Middle East makes because we do not take the lead in alternative energy.

I'd like you to think hard about things like that, and about how deep your knowledge of fiscal matters really are.

205 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 3:33:12pm

re: #204 Obdicut

Er, a "Republican" machine, but the Republicans that turned into the Democrats.

Anyways.

206 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 3:39:49pm

re: #205 Obdicut

Er, a "Republican" machine, but the Republicans that turned into the Democrats.

Anyways.

Not so much turned into Democrats. Rather FDR and Al Smith created a Democratic machine that was able to rival the Republican machine.

But I don't hate the Democratic machine in Illinois because it is Democratic; I hate it because it is corrupt (though the GOP has had corruption trouble here, too) and it is leading my state down a road to ruin. My friends and family and I wanted a Republican nominee in the Jim Edgar mold. But Bill Brady was who we got. Now its him or the machine. That is my choice.

207 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 3:43:21pm

re: #206 Dark_Falcon

And again: You have no actual reason to believe that Brady is better than 'the machine'. You have positive proof he is worse in many ways.

208 Apox  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 4:34:00pm

..... But Obama is a secret Muslim / socialist... And nobody likes that!
/

209 NC Gray  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 6:10:56pm

This is an old news poll. Interviews were conducted nearly a month ago... Interviews completed 9/28-30/2010 pg 4.

[Link: nw-assets.s3.amazonaws.com...]

Interesting points 58.6% of those surveyed are frustrated or angry (92% of Republicans 33% of the survey populations; 86% of independents 30% of the survey population & 2.2% of Democrats 37% of the survey population).

Wonder if they did another poll of likely voters that haven't released?

Even Talking Points ([Link: www.talkingpointsmemo.com...] and Huffington ([Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...] are not buying it...

But hey if helps you sleep for the next 10 nights- I'm just saying.

210 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 6:13:35pm

re: #209 NC Gray

The Democrats are going to lose a large number of seats in the House and the Senate, most likely losing majority control of the House.

Try not to be an asshole.

211 joest73  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 6:16:28pm

re: #150 sagehen

NO! That is NOT TRUE.

He cut the rate for a year or two ($400 for single people, $800 for couples), but instead of sending out "stimulus checks" like Bush did, he cut the withholding so that people get a little more in every paycheck -- because economists said sending out checks people will just bank it instead of spend it, and it's more stimulative this way.

Who could forget this quote from Michelle Obama in 2008:
[Link: firstread.msnbc.msn.com...]

"You're getting $600," she told an audience of mostly African-American women here. "What can you do with that? Not to be ungrateful or anything. But maybe it pays down a bill, but it doesn't pay down every bill every month."

Well Michelle... you know what is helping me pay down those "bills" right now? That $1900/year or $160/month that I am getting from the Bush tax
cuts.

212 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Oct 23, 2010 9:03:02pm

re: #147 SanFranciscoZionist

LOL!
You, get twitchy?
You provide valuable insights to ideas, that I for one, haven't though about, in that way!
God Bless!

213 krypto  Sun, Oct 24, 2010 11:01:34am

I've been watching Gallup's daily posted approval stats for Obama for a long time, and at no time do I recall seeing results consistent with the Newsweek results. As much as I would like to believe that Newsweek is right, I really don't think they are.

214 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Oct 24, 2010 3:53:27pm

re: #211 joest73

Who could forget this quote from Michelle Obama in 2008:
[Link: firstread.msnbc.msn.com...]

Well Michelle... you know what is helping me pay down those "bills" right now? That $1900/year or $160/month that I am getting from the Bush tax
cuts.

Oh look, a talking point

215 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Oct 24, 2010 3:54:50pm

re: #178 goddamnedfrank

What are the matters of primary import to you, his opposition to women's freedom of reproductive choice even in cases of rape and incest, his rejection of the science of AGW, or that as a financial conservative he plays to your own flawed recent understanding of how tax brackets work?

Or is it just that he's not part of the nebulous "dem machine" abstract boogeyman that seems to terrify you so?

UNIONS
CHICAGO
SOCIALIST
HRGLBLRG

216 ClaudeMonet  Sun, Oct 24, 2010 8:19:49pm

re: #81 BigPapa

We pay tax people to understand this stuff. Not making excuses but the concept of progressive taxation is a relatively complex concept.

As a tax preparer, I am compelled to say, "If you don't understand the basics of the system, what gives you the right to criticize it?"

There are lots of things I don't understand in full, but I make the effort to understand some of it. That's all I ask of people who rail about their income taxes--learn the basic concepts, learn what income is, what a deduction is, what tax brackets are and how they work.

217 ClaudeMonet  Sun, Oct 24, 2010 8:26:55pm

re: #103 WindUpBird

That is true! Because anyone who's self-employed has to actually account for everything, and that's why I have an accountant.

Keep well-written, logical records of what you take in and disburse. Keep separate accounts for personal spending and the business, and if you can't do that, at least note "B" or "P" in your checkbook. Write down your business mileage. You'd be amazed how much less you have to pay your tax professional if you do this, and how much less stress you'll both have.

As I tell my clients, "90% of the job is organization. You can do it, or pay me to do it. Guess which is cheaper."

218 ClaudeMonet  Sun, Oct 24, 2010 8:47:33pm

re: #148 goddamnedfrank

We're talking about people over thirty, who have paid personal income taxes for over a decade, who consider themselves intelligent, well grounded financial conservatives with an effective grasp of reality. It's not that hard to look at the amount TurboTax or whatever says you owe before deductions, divide it by your total taxable income, and see that the resulting percentage doesn't come close to matching one's nominal highest bracket. It's not a difficult subject if it can be checked with basic elementary school level arithmetic. Some people are either just lazy, or don't want to know the truth, or both.

You are assuming that such people can perform "basic elementary school level arithmetic". It ain't necessarily so.

re: #154 engineer dog

i wonder what happens when perhaps thirty percent of a country firmly believes in so many things that just aren't so

"Faith is believing what you know ain't so." -Mark Twain, author and humorist (1835-1910)


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