Curb Stomper is a Rand Paul County Coordinator

Wingnuts • Views: 7,504

Curb Stomp Guy has been identified as Rand Paul’s Bourbon County coordinator, Tim Profitt.

Here’s video of the assault (now all over YouTube):

Youtube Video

UPDATE at 10/26/10 12:08:22 pm:

A photo of Profitt with Rand Paul (h/t Gus 802):

UPDATE at 10/26/10 12:10:16 pm:

The Rand Paul campaign has now issued a stronger statement on the incident:

“The Paul for Senate campaign is extremely disappointed in, and condemns the actions of a supporter last night outside the KET debate. Whatever the perceived provocation, any level of aggression or violence is deplorable, and will not be tolerated by our campaign. The Paul campaign has disassociated itself from the volunteer who took part in this incident, and once again urges all activists — on both sides — to remember that their political passions should never manifest themselves in physical altercations of any kind.”

UPDATE at 10/26/10 12:20:34 pm:

And now Profitt has issued his statement: Rand Paul volunteer apologizes for scuffle.

LEXINGTON, Ky. — A Rand Paul supporter is apologizing after he was seen on video stepping on a liberal activist’s head.

Tim Profitt, a volunteer with the Republican’s U.S. Senate campaign, told The Associated Press on Tuesday that the camera angle made the scuffle Monday night appear worse that it was. He criticized police for not stepping in and says other supporters warned authorities about the activist.

Jump to bottom

165 comments
1 Gus  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:04:46pm
2 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:05:01pm

Rand Paul campaign condemns attack, disowns volunteer:
[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

Meh.

3 Interesting Times  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:06:44pm

Profitt's sign: "Will not let Congress Break the Law!"
Fine print: "That's my job."

4 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:07:05pm

Stay classy Republicans.

Seriously, this is what happens when you vote for someone who wants to increase the odds of reproductive success for rapists. This behavior is absolutely to be expected from men who find having a penis makes it impossible for them to empathize with women.

5 Kragar  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:07:13pm

I can see how she would be extremely threatening to a group of men who probably each out weighed her by a good hundred pounds. They had no choice but to defend themselves by tackling her, wrestling her to the ground and stomping on her.

6 Political Atheist  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:08:57pm

I expect to see news of an arrest forthwith. Or else, as in justified outrage and scrutiny.

7 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:11:18pm

re: #6 Rightwingconspirator

I expect to see news of an arrest forthwith. Or else, as in justified outrage and scrutiny.

Putting that asshole in a jail with some future deportees or gang bangers would be poetic justice.

8 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:12:18pm

As I have written dozens of times, the essence of winguts is fear and self loathing. These losers are afraid all the tme, so they want you to be afraid as a sort of payback to the cruel world that made them utter failures. Of course, it is always someone else's fault that thy are such failures. It is because these things that you see such hyper macho BS and outrage. Only people with very little manhood can possibly feel that they need to show their manhood by abusing women.

There are a lot of aging white folks out there who are scared and ignorant and led by the nose. The only thing they think they have to cling onto is their much vaunted and overrated whiteness. With a black president, even that is being "taken" from them. Fox and the GOP and Limbaugh et al... have tapped into this fear and stoked it to the point where people think it is somehow acceptable to abuse women in the streets. OF course there is the aspect of abusing a woman too. That is one group that aging white guys still usually still have the physical prowess to "put in their place." The guy doing this of course, feels that this was an expression of his manhood and dominance.

He should try that around here. There are plenty of other men who can and would break his legs for such behavior and not a jury in a civilized state, at least, that would convict.

In that video we see the whole panoply of what is wrong. Notonly was the woman stomped by some hick jackass - who was trying to show how manly he is, in a more violent, but not particularly different display than a dog peeing to mark its territory, you have a guy who filmed it rather than intervene and a crowd that watched.

What we see here is the essence of the lack of manhood prevalent in America today. From the POS hick who who was proud of how tough he was, to the cowards who did nothing. And the GOP is their party.

9 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:12:38pm

oh creepy libertarians what would we do without them

10 celticdragon  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:12:50pm

I think it is worth putting out there:

At what point do we need to start taking self defense from right wing violence seriously?

11 lawhawk  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:13:00pm

And yet you had folks trying to claim that it was a setup (see Althouse and Instapundit):

ANN ALTHOUSE ISN’T BUYING THE MOVEON STOMPING STORY:

Are the men in the T-shirts also from Moveon.org? Who were they? There were no arrests and though there was a crowd, no one bothered to have detained these men. Did they just melt back into the night? It’s very convenient that these bad actors were wearing labels identifying them. . . .So her head was on the curb and her neck was stomped, but she will go off and take care of herself? I’m skeptical!

As you should be given recent history.

links redacted.

Well, it's convenient that they were wearing labels - he was the Rand Paul County coordinator. Of course he was wearing Paul garb.

And as for her medical care, she did get medical treatment and suffered a concussion (more background on Valle there).

12 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:13:28pm

re: #5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I can see how she would be extremely threatening to a group of men who probably each out weighed her by a good hundred pounds. They had no choice but to defend themselves by tackling her, wrestling her to the ground and stomping on her.

real tough American patriots there, real heroes

13 Kragar  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:14:27pm

re: #9 WindUpBird

oh creepy libertarians what would we do without them

Live our lives with fewer assholes bothering us?

14 celticdragon  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:14:30pm

re: #11 lawhawk

And yet you had folks trying to claim that it was a setup (see Althouse and Instapundit):

links redacted.

Well, it's convenient that they were wearing labels - he was the Rand Paul County coordinator. Of course he was wearing Paul garb.

And as for her medical care, she did get medical treatment and suffered a concussion (more background on Valle there).

Timothy McVeigh was a left wing set up as well, and Hitler was a left wing plant. Jonah Goldberg told me.

///

15 Gus  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:15:42pm

Just in case there is any doubt.

LEXINGTON, Ky.A Rand Paul supporter is apologizing after he was seen on video stepping on a liberal activist's head.

Tim Profitt, a volunteer with the Republican's U.S. Senate campaign, told The Associated Press on Tuesday that the camera angle made the scuffle Monday night appear worse that it was. He criticized police for not stepping in and says other supporters warned authorities about the activist.

16 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:15:44pm

After an unforgettable night with the magical balance fairy, Rand Paul had this to say:

The Paul campaign has disassociated itself from the volunteer who took part in this incident, and once again urges all activists — on both sides on both sides on both sides on both sides on both sides on both sides on both sides on both sides on both sides on both sides on both sides— to remember that their political passions should never manifest themselves in physical altercations of any kind.”

lol

17 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:15:48pm

re: #10 celticdragon

I think it is worth putting out there:

At what point do we need to start taking self defense from right wing violence seriously?

Two years ago.

18 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:16:18pm

re: #13 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Live our lives with fewer assholes bothering us?

Yes!

19 Kragar  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:16:58pm

re: #12 WindUpBird

real tough American patriots there, real heroes

Its like Washington crossing the Delaware or Roosevelt storming San Juan Hill. The curb stomping of a small woman holding a sign is a true expression of real patriotism.

20 Winny Spencer  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:16:59pm

Plenty of Troofer and NWO-craziness on his facebook page. And he's apparently a fan of Juan Williams.

21 Kragar  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:18:03pm

re: #15 Gus 802

Just in case there is any doubt.

Ah, it was the fault of the police for not stepping in, not him being an asshole. Got it.

22 celticdragon  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:18:09pm

I find it beyond belief that cretins like Glen Reynolds and Ann Althouse can actually try to spin left wing conspiracy theories out of this that are taken seriously and will be cited by their drooling Pavlovian dogs audience.

We had a good run, folks, but I fear our ability to think critically and act in an intelligent manner in this country is coming to an end. Unreasoning hate really does trump everything else.

23 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:18:12pm

This is what happens when the ideology of "we have to take the law into our own hands" and "we answer to a higher authority than the Constitution" is taken up by a bunch of agressive, frustrated ignoroids.

24 kirkspencer  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:19:20pm

re: #19 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Its like Washington crossing the Delaware or Roosevelt storming San Juan Hill. The curb stomping of a small woman holding a sign is a true expression of real patriotism.

It might turn out to be like Rosa Parks. I doubt it, but I still find myself hoping one of the straws breaks the camel's back -- that the America I thought I was part of will say, "enough".

25 celticdragon  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:19:47pm

re: #16 WindUpBird

After an unforgettable night with the magical balance fairy, Rand Paul had this to say:

lol

The magical balance faerie needed some ice bags, a shot of Scotch and a long shower after Rand got through with her.

The bastard didn't even leave a decent tip.

26 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:20:29pm

re: #15 Gus 802

Just in case there is any doubt.

Tim Profitt, a volunteer with the Republican's U.S. Senate campaign, told The Associated Press on Tuesday that the camera angle made the scuffle Monday night appear worse that it was.

No asshole, you have about 100 pounds on her, she was in a fetal defensive posture, curled up on the ground, and you were stepping on her head. She suffered a concussion. The fact that you are not in jail facing aggravated assault charges is a sign of how bad Kentucky must be as a state.

He criticized police for not stepping in

I do too. Why is this bastard not in prison?

and says other supporters warned authorities about the activist.

Because you know, an unarmed woman who disagrees with your medieval BS is a threat that needs police action. Consider this part too. If these animals take over, they will see the police as a way to silence dissent.

27 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:21:24pm

Still got a week left of this, I wonder how much more craziness we'll see

28 Nick Schroeder  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:21:34pm

Well, I have to give them some credit for this. But then I have to take some of it away, again, for invoking 'both sides are the same' when it is totally unwarranted here.

re: #4 goddamnedfrank


Seriously, this is what happens when you vote for someone who wants to increase the odds of reproductive success for rapists.

You know, I've never really thought of it that way, but now that you mention it, that's a great observation, and both hilarious and depressing.

29 jaunte  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:22:06pm

re: #16 WindUpBird

I can't remember any costumed Forefathers at Tea Party rallies getting their wigs ripped off, but maybe I missed it.

30 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:22:21pm

re: #9 WindUpBird

oh creepy libertarians what would we do without them

I hate Libertarians with the best of 'em, but this is purely a Republican phenomena, condoned by people who vote for pro rapist candidates. Rand' abortion policy is absolutely antithetical to any definition of libertarianism, the term as he uses it has been reduced to a smokescreen for a minority of people who like marijuana but also happen to be sociopathic woman haters.

31 aagcobb  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:22:28pm

re: #15 Gus 802

Because of course since the police don't supress an "anti-american" protesters, he had no choice except to violently do it himself!

32 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:22:36pm

re: #21 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Ah, it was the fault of the police for not stepping in, not him being an asshole. Got it.

With these types, it is always someone else's fault. The irony of their stances on personal responsibility becomes another bit of wing nut doublethink.

Really, they don't let that stuff go on where I am from. Had I seen it, or any of my friends seen it, there would have been an intervention - and he would be handcuffed to a hospital bed awaiting charges. But then again, I don't live in a hick state.

33 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:24:50pm

re: #21 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Ersonal-pay esponsibility-ray.

Utt-bay unch-may.

34 wrenchwench  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:25:19pm

re: #15 Gus 802

the camera angle made the scuffle Monday night appear worse that it was

That's almost suitable to rotate.

Was the camera upside down? Was she really leaning on the curb, resting, and the guy was giving her a neck massage? Looked like a pretty elaborate chiropractic maneuver, sure.

35 aagcobb  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:27:41pm

re: #32 LudwigVanQuixote

You know, there are assholes everywhere, not just in Kentucky.

36 deranged cat  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:28:44pm

re: #8 LudwigVanQuixote

"you have a guy who filmed it rather than intervene"

I just want to say that I'm OK with the camera guy not intervening, because we have a full and clear view of what happened with no room for error. if it'd been shaky cam etc, we might not have found out who it was and the right wing trolls would have even more stupid things to say.

37 jaunte  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:29:03pm

re: #15 Gus 802

"I'm sorry that it came to that, and I apologize if it appeared overly forceful, but I was concerned about Rand's safety," Profitt told The Associated Press.
[Link: www.mercurynews.com...]

"If it appeared overly forceful."

What a scum bag.

38 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:29:48pm

Suppose, as some of the Paulians claim, that this woman was lunging at Paul in a possible attempt to hit him with the sign. Wouldn't a smart operator have allowed this to happen before intervening, knowing that it would be the best thing in the world for the campaign? One feeble whack with a flimsy sign and she could have been dragged away and arrested (though not stepped on). It's not like Paul could really have been injured and the eevil and violence of the Marxist/Move-on/SEIU/ACORN enemy could have been exposed for all to see. Hell, if this had happened, we would see lefties indulging in speculation over whether Paul had set it up himself.

39 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:31:25pm
Tim Profitt, a volunteer with the Republican’s U.S. Senate campaign, told The Associated Press on Tuesday that the camera angle made the scuffle Monday night appear worse that it was. He criticized police for not stepping in and says other supporters warned authorities about the activist.


What a dick.

40 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:31:25pm

Shorter Profitt:

If only she hadn't of shown up, or if the police had arrested her for no reason whatsoever I wouldn't have been forced to stomp on her head.

In other words it's her fault and the fault of the police (aka gubmint).

41 wrenchwench  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:32:37pm

re: #38 Shiplord Kirel

Hell, if this had happened, we would see lefties indulging in speculation over whether Paul had set it up himself.

Wait, maybe he did! And his dopey operatives foiled it! D'oh!

42 Charles Johnson  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:32:50pm

They have a somewhat plausible excuse for grabbing her (if she did rush at Paul), a less plausible excuse for wrestling her to the ground, and no excuse at all for stomping on her shoulders and head while she was bent over a curb.

43 Kragar  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:32:52pm

re: #37 jaunte

"I'm sorry that it came to that, and I apologize if it appeared overly forceful, but I was concerned about Rand's safety," Profitt told The Associated Press.
[Link: www.mercurynews.com...]

"If it appeared overly forceful."

What a scum bag.

Anything to keep Rand safe. Perhaps they should institute additional rules like people should avert their gaze in his presence and prostrate themselves if they're within 100ft of his Eminence.

44 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:33:29pm

re: #31 aagcobb

Because of course since the police don't supress an "anti-american" protesters, he had no choice except to violently do it himself!

It's pretty telling that the police didn't regard the woman as a threat.

45 Political Atheist  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:33:45pm

re: #10 celticdragon

Before you worry about left wing right wing. Political violence is common. Even in the USA. May Day parades, anti WTO/Group of of Seven meetings. LAPD Riot squads roll out routinely at political rallies. Now we have libertarian violence. People get hurt far worse at anti WTO protests. The type of attacker is hardly relevant, apart from proper ID.

She had little chance to defend herself, bailing out was her only option really. Probably had no idea anyone would stoop so low. She went for an argument and got beat up. Damn shameful. Arguing is part of the process.

46 Nick Schroeder  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:34:02pm

So, the Paul campaign denounced the attack, and the guy himself is now apologizing. This means the right wing rage-o-sphere will stop defending this, right?

Right?

47 Charles Johnson  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:34:34pm

re: #46 Nick Schroeder

So, the Paul campaign denounced the attack, and the guy himself is now apologizing. This means the right wing rage-o-sphere will stop defending this, right?

Right?

Doubt it.

48 Kronocide  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:37:10pm

Paul's campaign did right by forcefully denouncing this event, better late than never. Proffit should shut the hell up he's digging himself a deeper hole. Methinks he's not smart enough to STFU.

49 Kragar  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:37:39pm

Obviously the liberal media is making an issue out of this and Profitt is just heroically taking the blame to shield Rand from further fallout from the vindictive press trying to make this a big deal.

50 celticdragon  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:40:53pm

re: #45 Rightwingconspirator

Before you worry about left wing right wing. Political violence is common. Even in the USA. May Day parades, anti WTO/Group of of Seven meetings. LAPD Riot squads roll out routinely at political rallies. Now we have libertarian violence. People get hurt far worse at anti WTO protests. The type of attacker is hardly relevant, apart from proper ID.

So the Hutaree militia, Tim McVeigh, abortion clinic bombers and snipers, guys who shoot up left wing church congregations and would be Tides CEO assassins really don't have anything in common and are not relevant except for knowing their ID.


Words fail.

51 sattv4u2  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:41:50pm

re: #36 deranged cat

I just want to say that I'm OK with the camera guy not intervening

Wow
I'm sure the females you know hope you're not holding a camera if they ever get assaulted!

52 celticdragon  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:42:09pm

re: #47 Charles

Doubt it.

The Malkin-bots are already trying see what her counter tops are made of.

53 researchok  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:42:16pm

I never thought I see I'd see it, but I have to say there is a good portion of the right that have become the equivalent of the 'armchair jihadi'. This isn't unique to right only, but given many of these folks are also under the Tea Party ether, what is painfully evident is most disheartening.

For now, a lot of the whackjob right has become mainstreamed to the GOP. The whackjob left have remained mostly peripheral to the Dems.

54 Nick Schroeder  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:43:08pm

I think one of my favorite things to watch whenever something like this happens is how quickly the True Believers™ will twist their tiny little brains into knots in an effort to concoct the semblance of a plausible scenario where the obvious truth, simply isn't true. The woman staged the whole thing. The guy was a liberal plant. Israel was responsible.

Their brains actually go to these things first, even when there is crystal clear video that can't be interpreted as anything other than some douche stepping all over a woman unnecessarily. Unbelievable.

55 Gus  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:44:37pm

Odd these so called adherent of liberty and the Constitution felt so threatened by one 100 pound woman with a sign. So much to the point that they tackled her to the ground and stomped on her head. They should perhaps consider shaving off all of their hair and wear flight jackets and combat boots. At least then their external appearance would match those of their cousin in the far-right movement: white supremacists and skinheads. This of course is no surprise considering the support the Pauls both receive from these same far-right factions.

56 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:44:59pm

re: #21 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Ah, it was the fault of the police for not stepping in, not him being an asshole. Got it.

The Man had to make him do it. Because Acorn or the SEIU weren't there to make him.

57 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:44:59pm

re: #53 researchok

Don't forget they have that whole "Our religion is number one and only we know how it's supposed to be taught" thing going on. They really are coming to resemble the taliban.

58 celticdragon  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:45:03pm

re: #53 researchok

I never thought I see I'd see it, but I have to say there is a good portion of the right that have become the equivalent of the 'armchair jihadi'. This isn't unique to right only, but given many of these folks are also under the Tea Party ether, what is painfully evident is most disheartening.

For now, a lot of the whackjob right has become mainstreamed to the GOP. The whackjob left have remained mostly peripheral to the Dems.

The knee jerk denial, conspiracy mongering and false equivalency claims are getting real familiar to anybody who listened to them from the Jihadi apologists.

59 Decatur Deb  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:47:04pm

re: #24 kirkspencer

It might turn out to be like Rosa Parks. I doubt it, but I still find myself hoping one of the straws breaks the camel's back -- that the America I thought I was part of will say, "enough".

If bombing the day care center in the Murrah Building wouldn't do it, I'd say "Don't hold your breath".

60 Varek Raith  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:47:20pm

re: #58 celticdragon

The knee jerk denial, conspiracy mongering and false equivalency claims are getting real familiar to anybody who listened to them from the Jihadi apologists.


Bolded for truth.

61 researchok  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:48:21pm

re: #57 Dreggas

Don't forget they have that whole "Our religion is number one and only we know how it's supposed to be taught" thing going on. They really are coming to resemble the taliban.

That myopia isn't restricted to GOP types only.

The difference is that the mainstream GOP makes room for them and panders to them.

There is no shortage of anarchist type lunatics on the left- but they are not worshiped or pandered to by the Dem establishment. They are kept at more than arms length distance.

62 researchok  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:50:03pm

re: #58 celticdragon

The knee jerk denial, conspiracy mongering and false equivalency claims are getting real familiar to anybody who listened to them from the Jihadi apologists.

It is in the mainstreaming of the stupidity you mention that will come back and haunt the GOP for a long time to come.

63 researchok  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:51:59pm

re: #59 Decatur Deb

If bombing the day care center in the Murrah Building wouldn't do it, I'd say "Don't hold your breath".

You know, if that idiot would have blown up the IRS building at 4:00 AM and hurt no one, he would have been a hero.

Stupidity is breathtaking.

64 sattv4u2  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:53:00pm

re: #63 researchok

You know, if that idiot would have blown up the IRS building at 4:00 AM and hurt no one, he would have been a hero.

Stupidity is breathtaking.

Someone tried to fly a small plane into one, iirc

65 researchok  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:53:40pm

re: #55 Gus 802

Odd these so called adherent of liberty and the Constitution felt so threatened by one 100 pound woman with a sign. So much to the point that they tackled her to the ground and stomped on her head. They should perhaps consider shaving off all of their hair and wear flight jackets and combat boots. At least then their external appearance would match those of their cousin in the far-right movement: white supremacists and skinheads. This of course is no surprise considering the support the Pauls both receive from these same far-right factions.

The myopia is stunning.

The really can't see.

66 Gus  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:53:57pm

The Plum Line - Cops share more details on probe of stomper

UPDATE, 3:36 p.m.: The Lexington police confirm it in a statement, adding that Profitt is now a suspect (I've edited the above to clarify):

The Lexington Division of Police has identified a suspect in connection to the October 25, 2010 assault of a woman at 600 Cooper Drive.

On the 25th, at approximately 7:00p.m., officers were alerted to an active assault at 600 Cooper Drive (Kentucky Educational Television Studios).

Officers responded to the scene of the assault and made contact with the victim. She identified herself as a member of MoveOn.org and stated she was assaulted while attempting to take a picture with candidate Rand Paul. Division of Police patrol officers took an assault report and forwarded the case to the Division of Police Bureau of Investigation.

Today, October 26, 2010, detectives identified the suspect, involved in the assault, as Tim Profitt. Mr. Profitt is currently being served with a criminal summons ordering him to appear before a Fayette County District Court Judge.

67 celticdragon  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:54:03pm

re: #64 sattv4u2

Someone tried to fly a small plane into one, iirc

Yep.

I remember some idiots tried to say that was a lefty plot as well.

No snark. Dead serious.

68 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:54:04pm

re: #61 researchok

The difference is that the mainstream GOP makes room for them and panders to them.

There is no shortage of anarchist type lunatics on the left- but they are not worshiped or pandered to by the Dem establishment. They are kept at more than arms length distance.

This makes all the difference in the world. Yeah there are plenty of kooks on the left, however they are not empowered by the Dems in the way that the right wing kooks are by the right.

69 Gus  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:55:16pm

re: #66 Gus 802

The Plum Line - Cops share more details on probe of stomper

More from linked article:

However: It looks as if this may not result in an arrest. Based on the footage of the incident, cops are treating the case for the time being as a fourth degree assault case, which puts this in the realm of domestic violence scuffles and barfights, she tells me. She says they're treating this as a "misdemeanor, not a felony."

Cops have to witness a scuffle like this firsthand in order to make an arrest, she adds. If they do identify the suspect, the victim, Lauren Halle, has the right to ask a judge at Fayette district court to bring charges. In other words, this is likely to be up to the court.

70 kirkspencer  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:56:31pm

re: #51 sattv4u2

I just want to say that I'm OK with the camera guy not intervening

Wow
I'm sure the females you know hope you're not holding a camera if they ever get assaulted!

Actually, I'm mixed. I mean, I understand from where you're coming. On the other hand the effective ridicule of the stomping defenders exists because of this video.

Consider the story if the person holding the camera had just dropped it and tackled the stomper instead. "Move-on activist starts riot at Paul-Conway debate."

71 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:56:59pm

Is it any wonder Alex Jones is so popular with wingnuts?
Is Stomping of MoveOn Activist at Rand Paul Event a Staged Incident? (via google)
Head stomping was an inside job!

72 researchok  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:58:14pm

re: #68 Dreggas

This makes all the difference in the world. Yeah there are plenty of kooks on the left, however they are not empowered by the Dems in the way that the right wing kooks are by the right.

Very, very true.

The Dem establishment have their own problems but for the most part, they keep them from sharing the center stage.

For example, the hard left is very unhappy with Obama, but the Dems have managed to keep their lunatics marginalized. That has served them well.

73 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:58:14pm

re: #71 Killgore Trout

Is it any wonder Alex Jones is so popular with wingnuts?
Is Stomping of MoveOn Activist at Rand Paul Event a Staged Incident? (via google)
Head stomping was an inside job!

It is interesting to note that the man who stomped the woman was a volunteer. In other words, there is a good chance he was a provocateur. In fact, there is a 50-50 chance the entire event was staged to sabotage Paul.


lol

74 iossarian  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:58:18pm

re: #70 kirkspencer

Actually, I'm mixed. I mean, I understand from where you're coming. On the other hand the effective ridicule of the stomping defenders exists because of this video.

Consider the story if the person holding the camera had just dropped it and tackled the stomper instead. "Move-on activist starts riot at Paul-Conway debate."

It's the same way reporters (especially photographers) justify their non-intervention in humanitarian disasters - they can achieve more by maintaining distance than by giving immediate assistance.

75 sattv4u2  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 12:59:32pm

re: #70 kirkspencer

Actually, I'm mixed. I mean, I understand from where you're coming. On the other hand the effective ridicule of the stomping defenders exists because of this video.

Consider the story if the person holding the camera had just dropped it and tackled the stomper instead. "Move-on activist starts riot at Paul-Conway debate."

Sorry, but no "mixed" feelings for me

WAY before we had instant media, video phones/ cameras, etc, the guy(s) that lay hands on a woman in public for ANY reason would have been stomped into a grease spot,, and let the cops sort it out later

Today, we have an army of Videographer wannabes looking to sell their video to the highest bidder

feh!

76 researchok  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:00:18pm

re: #75 sattv4u2

Sorry, but no "mixed" feelings for me

WAY before we had instant media, video phones/ cameras, etc, the guy(s) that lay hands on a woman in public for ANY reason would have been stomped into a grease spot,, and let the cops sort it out later

Today, we have an army of Videographer wannabes looking to sell their video to the highest bidder

feh!

Spot on.

77 garhighway  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:00:35pm

re: #71 Killgore Trout

Is it any wonder Alex Jones is so popular with wingnuts?
Is Stomping of MoveOn Activist at Rand Paul Event a Staged Incident? (via google)
Head stomping was an inside job!

An inside job by a Rand Paul supporter? Are we talking Manchurian Candidate kind of stuff here?

78 APox  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:01:41pm

The party that touts personal responsibility sure has a lot of excuses when they do something awful. Bad camera angle? Police's fault?

... How about just not stomping on people, own your mistake.

79 kirkspencer  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:02:03pm

re: #75 sattv4u2

Sorry, but no "mixed" feelings for me

WAY before we had instant media, video phones/ cameras, etc, the guy(s) that lay hands on a woman in public for ANY reason would have been stomped into a grease spot,, and let the cops sort it out later

Today, we have an army of Videographer wannabes looking to sell their video to the highest bidder

feh!

hate to be the downer here, but no. Oh, we like to believe it is so, but the reality of history is that most people would have stood there and done nothing even without the camera excuse.

Two words in support of my position: Kitty Genovese

80 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:03:08pm

re: #75 sattv4u2

Sorry, but no "mixed" feelings for me

WAY before we had instant media, video phones/ cameras, etc, the guy(s) that lay hands on a woman in public for ANY reason would have been stomped into a grease spot,, and let the cops sort it out later

Today, we have an army of Videographer wannabes looking to sell their video to the highest bidder

feh!

Thank you.
sheesh. Is it any wonder I feel less safe than I used to, with folks thinking that operating a video camera is the equivalent of offering actual pro-active protection from harm?

81 iossarian  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:03:11pm

re: #79 kirkspencer

hate to be the downer here, but no. Oh, we like to believe it is so, but the reality of history is that most people would have stood there and done nothing even without the camera excuse.

Two words in support of my position: Kitty Genovese

Or see, Germany 1933-45.

82 garhighway  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:03:41pm

re: #75 sattv4u2

Sorry, but no "mixed" feelings for me

WAY before we had instant media, video phones/ cameras, etc, the guy(s) that lay hands on a woman in public for ANY reason would have been stomped into a grease spot,, and let the cops sort it out later

Today, we have an army of Videographer wannabes looking to sell their video to the highest bidder

feh!

Really?

So back in the 50's and 60's, someone who, say, turned a fire hose on a bunch of college students would have gotten stomped? Or someone who turned police dogs on unarmed young men and women?

I respectfully disagree. In the days before instant media, this would have happened just the way it did. But we wouldn't have known about it.

83 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:04:06pm

re: #36 deranged cat

I just want to say that I'm OK with the camera guy not intervening, because we have a full and clear view of what happened with no room for error. if it'd been shaky cam etc, we might not have found out who it was and the right wing trolls would have even more stupid things to say.

Right wing trolls will use any excuse to spread their idiotic dumbshittery.

re: #51 sattv4u2

Wow
I'm sure the females you know hope you're not holding a camera if they ever get assaulted!

Case in point, documentation = inaction, straight from the tax expert's mouth. Everyone's an internet tough guy when they're not actually there. If the videographer had put the camera down and instigated a riot, everything would be so much better.

84 sattv4u2  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:04:11pm

re: #81 iossarian

re: #82 garhighway

way to miss the point

Thanks

85 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:04:42pm

re: #82 garhighway

In the days before instant media, this would have happened just the way it did. But we wouldn't have known about it.

Two words: Rodney King

86 iossarian  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:05:33pm

re: #84 sattv4u2

re: #82 garhighway

way to miss the point

Thanks

What is the point? What I'm saying is that, when bad things happen, people generally stand back and avert their eyes.

This is why we have a police force.

I have no interest in vigilanteism, in large part because it is almost entirely ineffective.

87 researchok  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:05:46pm

re: #81 iossarian

Or see, Germany 1933-45.

Fair point, but there is a difference.

In Hitler era Germany, intervening was not only a crime, but you at great risk.

There is something wrong when a photographer watches someone burn to death as opposed to trying to save the guy.

88 APox  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:07:12pm

Imagine if that woman would have been Bristol palin or some such character. Would have loved to read the right wing blogs then. Me thinks they would not be saying 'well they only stomped on her shoulder'.

89 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:07:12pm

re: #77 garhighway

An inside job by a Rand Paul supporter? Are we talking Manchurian Candidate kind of stuff here?

I think Jones is hinting that the volunteer head stomper was coordinating with the lefty chick to manufacture the incident to smear Paul. It's pretty much what Instapundit is saying too.

90 garhighway  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:07:23pm

re: #84 sattv4u2

re: #82 garhighway

way to miss the point

Thanks

I'm sorry if I missed your point. What was it? I thought you were saying that there was some sort of cause-and-effect between instant media and the crowd tolerating bad behavior, and/or a sort of "back when I was a boy" statement that this didn't used to happen. If it wasn't that, what was it?

I'm not trying to be a smartass here, I really want to know.

91 sattv4u2  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:09:32pm

re: #86 iossarian

What is the point?

Or see, Germany 1933-45.

So you think jack booted armed thugs in power and on the rise in Germany, "ordinary" people not able or willing to stand up against them is the exact same as a guy holding a camera and being unwilling to step between a woman and a campaign worker?

92 garhighway  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:09:47pm

re: #89 Killgore Trout

I think Jones is hinting that the volunteer head stomper was coordinating with the lefty chick to manufacture the incident to smear Paul. It's pretty much what Instapundit is saying too.

So the volunteer was a "deep cover" Conway operative? Wow.

Those people really are nuts.

93 sattv4u2  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:09:59pm

re: #83 goddamnedfrank

Good post ,, but you forgot to swear or call me names

94 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:10:09pm

Well, this right-wing troll lady is pretty upset with seeing such defending of lack of action against the stomper, which is pretty much saying it was OK for the guy to beat her up.

If you don't stand up and make yourself heard (or felt, when necessary), when you see something wrong going on - that's just pitiful. No humanity.

feh.

95 iossarian  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:10:20pm

re: #87 researchok


In Hitler era Germany, intervening was not only a crime, but you at great risk.

There is something wrong when a photographer watches someone burn to death as opposed to trying to save the guy.

Well, going into a burning building presumably puts you at great risk as well.

The point is that, in these cases, self-preservation kicks in and people are very unlikely to intervene. And even if they want to, the unexpected nature of the event will often shock them into passivity. That is just reality.

96 sattv4u2  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:11:52pm

re: #94 reine.de.tout

{{Reine}}

97 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:12:03pm

re: #95 iossarian

Well, going into a burning building presumably puts you at great risk as well.

The point is that, in these cases, self-preservation kicks in and people are very unlikely to intervene. And even if they want to, the unexpected nature of the event will often shock them into passivity. That is just reality.

For most, true.
But surely there is one person in a crowd, one, who will do the right thing.
Didn't see it here, did we?
And you are all defending it.

98 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:12:39pm

re: #96 sattv4u2

{{Reine}}

Satt - I'm speechless.
Seriously.

99 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:12:59pm

re: #35 aagcobb

You know, there are assholes everywhere, not just in Kentucky.

Yes, but civilized states don't have Rand Paul as a Senatorial candidate and would not allow such public assholery. It is curious that you even think to defend this POS. While we are at it. Suppose every state were that bad, how would that excuse this POS?

I am sick of threads where we see some wingnut being a total douche, and then little commenters show up to complain that somehow it is OK, because someone else was also a douche, or might have been a douche.

Little hick tossers like this are why this country is going down the crapper. They are why we spend more on things like education or healthcare than any other nation, yet have rankings in the twenties. It is because of idiots like them that we have creationism in our schools and questions about the separation of church and state. It is because of douches like them that women still have to work harder to make the same pay at the same job. It is because of throwbacks like them that we get into useless wars over oil when we could have other energy sources that made us more money and saved the environment. It is because of idiots like them that we are destroying our ability to inhabit the planet with AGW. It is because of deranged, sick morons like them that we have a perpetual underclass in the minorities and all the racial fears and tensions we do.

It is because of disgusting, ass-backwards, semi-literate hicks like him that people think it is all manly to drink beer, talk about guns and abuse women.

People like that are a cancer. They are the worst of America. They bring our entire nation down and they are rightfully a national disgrace.

100 sattv4u2  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:13:22pm

re: #98 reine.de.tout

Satt - I'm speechless.
Seriously.

Good time for me to log off and do some work

BBL

oh ,, you get home safe, I take it???

101 iossarian  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:14:37pm

re: #94 reine.de.tout

I'm not defending anything, I'm observing that people usually behave in a particular way in these situations.

Should people defend other people when they are being assaulted? Sure. Will they? Usually, no. Again, that is reality.

Hence, police forces.

On a broader note, we can have discussions about what people should or shouldn't do, but in general, if you want to change outcomes, it's best to work back from the desired outcome and figure out what needs to be put in place to achieve that.

102 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:14:44pm

re: #100 sattv4u2

Good time for me to log off and do some work

BBL

oh ,, you get home safe, I take it???

We're home! Thanks.

I'm logging off too.
Better things to do than wait around for god-damned goddamned frank to come ding me down and call me a troll.
sheesh.

103 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:16:11pm

re: #53 researchok

I never thought I see I'd see it, but I have to say there is a good portion of the right that have become the equivalent of the 'armchair jihadi'. This isn't unique to right only, but given many of these folks are also under the Tea Party ether, what is painfully evident is most disheartening.

For now, a lot of the whackjob right has become mainstreamed to the GOP. The whackjob left have remained mostly peripheral to the Dems.

The word is brown shirt. That is what they are.

Time to face reality.

104 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:17:08pm

re: #101 iossarian

I'm not defending anything, I'm observing that people usually behave in a particular way in these situations.

Should people defend other people when they are being assaulted? Sure. Will they? Usually, no. Again, that is reality.

Hence, police forces.

On a broader note, we can have discussions about what people should or shouldn't do, but in general, if you want to change outcomes, it's best to work back from the desired outcome and figure out what needs to be put in place to achieve that.

blabbity blah blah
Sorry.
This is just blabbity blah blah.
I'm not interested in knowing the reasons.
It disgusts me that this lady was beaten.
It disgusts me that no one helped this lady.
And it is utterly disgusting to me that this group would rather sit around an analyze it (while some are actually defending it), than just come out and say that it was wrong to watch while this happened, and do nothing.

And it disgusts me that

105 darthstar  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:18:30pm

He's apologizing? How about spending some time in jail, you fuckwad.

106 iossarian  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:18:58pm

re: #104 reine.de.tout

I'm not going to continue to argue with this, I don't think it's productive.

107 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:18:58pm

re: #87 researchok

Fair point, but there is a difference.

In Hitler era Germany, intervening was not only a crime, but you at great risk.

There is something wrong when a photographer watches someone burn to death as opposed to trying to save the guy.

She is lucky to have only had a concussion. She could have been killed or crippled.

So lets say for the sake of argument, that camera guy is off the hook for doing nothing. No one else stopped it either. They are honorless, cowardly, sick little gobs of shit.

108 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:19:52pm

re: #94 reine.de.tout

Well, this right-wing troll lady is pretty upset with seeing such defending of lack of action against the stomper, which is pretty much saying it was OK for the guy to beat her up.

Documentation is not inaction. You know absolutely nothing about the videographer's physical capability to intervene. You do know that they were severely outnumbered, but that doesn't enter into your calculus. The videographer is the primary reason Profitt is probably going to end up with a criminal record, and why the facts surrounding the case are so unambiguously clear. It's just so cheap and easy to second guess someone else's courage when you weren't there and have every reason to be pissed off at the narrative their documentation cemented. That you focus on the one person who took action with their camera is interesting, and telling, as an entire crowd of people without cameras stood by taking no action whatsoever.

109 Obdicut  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:20:21pm

re: #97 reine.de.tout


And you are all defending it.

All?

110 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:20:36pm
111 Enlino  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:21:42pm

re: #94 reine.de.tout
I think that it's a little bit silly to blame the cameraman in particular; there's plenty of other people who weren't doing anything, or who were actively participating: shouldn't they be even more responsible? I'm not shocked that the cameraman didn't drop his (or her? do we know?) camera to try and fight a couple of angry guys, even if it would be the 'right' thing to do. Documentation is possibly more useful, even if it's less courageous.

112 kirkspencer  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:22:38pm

re: #97 reine.de.tout

For most, true.
But surely there is one person in a crowd, one, who will do the right thing.
Didn't see it here, did we?
And you are all defending it.

Yes, I'm defending it, despite your mischaracterization.

I'll say it again, had people gone in and bashed these two yahoos we'd have seen the left smeared for starting a riot. We'd have seen Valle and the camera person hammered.

I'll note that one reason most people didn't move is that many didn't notice it -- Rand Paul was walking in their midst. Also, many agreed with the stompers. There were people yelling for the police but a lot of others were cheering - whether Paul or the stompers is hard to tell except for the two or three you can see in the video.

Finally, allegedly shortly after the video stops some people did move in, pull the guy holding Valle off and help her up. Allegedly.

The absolutely clear video is WHY we are able to identify and condemn the pair, to completely ridicule and dispute the defenders of the stomper, and ironically to condemn the video creator. He was damned whatever he did.

113 Obdicut  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:23:43pm

re: #97 reine.de.tout

Documentation can help to stop things from getting father out of control, by the way. I don't think the person running the video did nearly enough-- I think it would have been a lot more effective to scream "I'm catching you assaulting her on tape, assholes, let her go". But I don't think the person taking the video is any more culpable than all the other people who did nothing-- and I think that they at least documented that the crime occurred.

I've been able to stop a crime before with the threat of my camera. Which was a good thing, because I never would have been able to physically take on the guy.

114 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:24:31pm

re: #106 iossarian

I'm not going to continue to argue with this, I don't think it's productive.

No, it isn't, is it?

115 garhighway  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:24:38pm

re: #104 reine.de.tout

blabbity blah blah


It disgusts me that this lady was beaten. Agree.
It disgusts me that no one helped this lady. Agree.
And it is utterly disgusting to me that this group would rather sit around an analyze it (while some are actually defending it), than just come out and say that it was wrong to watch while this happened, and do nothing. I missed anyone defending the stomper. Or his buddies. But to the extent that you or others are saying that this is novel, I have to disagree. It is not novel. It is wrong and disgusting, but it is far from novel.

116 Political Atheist  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:25:42pm

re: #50 celticdragon

For the purpose of self defense. That would be the question I was responding to.

An incoming rightwing fist will do the same damage as an anarchists fist. If you know a little self defense, perhaps no damage. If not, you will need some medical attention.

117 kirkspencer  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:26:23pm

re: #113 Obdicut

Documentation can help to stop things from getting father out of control, by the way. I don't think the person running the video did nearly enough-- I think it would have been a lot more effective to scream "I'm catching you assaulting her on tape, assholes, let her go". But I don't think the person taking the video is any more culpable than all the other people who did nothing-- and I think that they at least documented that the crime occurred.

I've been able to stop a crime before with the threat of my camera. Which was a good thing, because I never would have been able to physically take on the guy.

Someone was yelling for police, and because it stayed constant volume as the camera moved I suspect it was the cameraman. But there is no way to tell.

118 Political Atheist  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:26:40pm

re: #50 celticdragon

So the Hutaree militia, Tim McVeigh, abortion clinic bombers and snipers, guys who shoot up left wing church congregations and would be Tides CEO assassins really don't have anything in common and are not relevant except for knowing their ID.

Words fail.

One more time-Knowing their ID for the arrest.

119 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:27:29pm

re: #108 goddamnedfrank

Documentation is not inaction. You know absolutely nothing about the videographer's physical capability to intervene. You do know that they were severely outnumbered, but that doesn't enter into your calculus. The videographer is the primary reason Profitt is probably going to end up with a criminal record, and why the facts surrounding the case are so unambiguously clear. It's just so cheap and easy to second guess someone else's courage when you weren't there and have every reason to be pissed off at the narrative their documentation cemented. That you focus on the one person who took action with their camera is interesting, and telling, as an entire crowd of people without cameras stood by taking no action whatsoever.

Find where I was focusing on the videographer.
I was talking about anyone, anyone coming to help the lady.
YOUR group was focusing on the videographer, and going on about how wonderful it was he got it all on video he can sell, rather than helping her, or encouraging someone else to help her.

Find where it was that I focused on the videographer.
Reading comprehension can be your friend.

120 iossarian  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:27:55pm

If you extrapolate from reading blog comments, the world is full of people (on both sides) who would gleefully leap into action, heroic and purposeful, at the slightest hint of trouble.

Yet, the real world time and time again shows us that people let bad stuff happen and don't try particularly hard to stop it.

These two facts can only be reconciled in one of two ways:

a) none of the internet commenters are ever in the vicinity when bad things happen

b) the internet commenters are not, in fact, any more likely to intervene than the average citizen (which is to say, not very likely at all)

121 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:29:38pm

re: #111 Enlino

I think that it's a little bit silly to blame the cameraman in particular; there's plenty of other people who weren't doing anything, or who were actively participating: shouldn't they be even more responsible? I'm not shocked that the cameraman didn't drop his (or her? do we know?) camera to try and fight a couple of angry guys, even if it would be the 'right' thing to do. Documentation is possibly more useful, even if it's less courageous.

Oh, for fuck's sake.
FIND WHERE I FOCUSED ON THE IDIOT VIDEOGRAPHER.
find it.

122 Obdicut  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:30:10pm

re: #120 iossarian

About half of the real-life incidents I've been involved in, I couldn't process information fast enough to figure out what was going on and actually usefully help. It's a really weird feeling.

123 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:30:29pm

re: #120 iossarian

If you extrapolate from reading blog comments, the world is full of people (on both sides) who would gleefully leap into action, heroic and purposeful, at the slightest hint of trouble.

Yet, the real world time and time again shows us that people let bad stuff happen and don't try particularly hard to stop it.

These two facts can only be reconciled in one of two ways:

a) none of the internet commenters are ever in the vicinity when bad things happen

b) the internet commenters are not, in fact, any more likely to intervene than the average citizen (which is to say, not very likely at all)

I have been in the vicinity when something wrong happened.
I do indeed make myself heard or felt.
That some of you here seem to prefer to analyze it, rather than jump in - speaks volumes. To me.

124 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:33:13pm

re: #119 reine.de.tout

Find where I was focusing on the videographer.
I was talking about anyone, anyone coming to help the lady.
YOUR group was focusing on the videographer, and going on about how wonderful it was he got it all on video he can sell, rather than helping her, or encouraging someone else to help her.

Find where it was that I focused on the videographer.
Reading comprehension can be your friend
.

re: #80 reine.de.tout

Thank you.
sheesh. Is it any wonder I feel less safe than I used to, with folks thinking that operating a video camera is the equivalent of offering actual pro-active protection from harm?

Go take a nap, you aren't thinking clearly.

125 Coachrichard  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:33:33pm

re: #79 kirkspencer

hate to be the downer here, but no. Oh, we like to believe it is so, but the reality of history is that most people would have stood there and done nothing even without the camera excuse.

Two words in support of my position: Kitty Genovese

Spot on!

People who think otherwise remind me a lot of the Tea Baggers. Longing for a world that never actually existed except on "Leave it to Beaver"

126 Obdicut  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:33:58pm

re: #123 reine.de.tout

I think you're aiming your anger at the wrong people, Reine. I don't really see anyone saying that they'd prefer to analyze the situation. I see people saying that it was lucky this didn't turn into a riot, or that it was lucky this got documented, or that we don't know if the videographer was someone physically capable of helping out.

I think that this situation causes a lot of anger, people here are not defending letting this woman get stomped.

re: #124 goddamnedfrank

Go take a nap, you aren't thinking clearly.


And you're being an asshole. She has a perfectly valid point.

127 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:34:04pm

re: #124 goddamnedfrank

re: #80 reine.de.tout

Go take a nap, you aren't thinking clearly.

YOu take a nap.
That was responding to what others were saying.
My subsequent posts focused on anyone.
You're not thinking clearly.

128 iossarian  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:34:07pm

re: #123 reine.de.tout


That some of you here seem to prefer to analyze it, rather than jump in - speaks volumes. To me.

I admit it, I am indecisive and a coward in such situations.

129 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:35:23pm

re: #126 Obdicut

I think you're aiming your anger at the wrong people, Reine. I don't really see anyone saying that they'd prefer to analyze the situation. I see people saying that it was lucky this didn't turn into a riot, or that it was lucky this got documented, or that we don't know if the videographer was someone physically capable of helping out.

I think that this situation causes a lot of anger, people here are not defending letting this woman get stomped.

re: #124 goddamnedfrank


And you're being an asshole. She has a perfectly valid point.

Obdi - thanks.
This poor woman was in a world of hurt.

You know what?
When I see wrong being done, even just bullying, I speak up.
My family has at times walked away from me, embarrassed.
But some things need to be addressed.
And mean spiritedness and violence such as this are among them.

130 Obdicut  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:36:25pm

re: #128 iossarian

A lot of people are.

If you read books about WWII, you'll find that a certain number of people, in a combat situation, simply freeze up. It's got nothing to do with 'bravery'-- they might freeze standing up exposed to enemy fire. It's a physical thing. Their systems can't handle the stress.

And you can't tell before it happens, really.

131 blueraven  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:37:13pm

re: #75 sattv4u2

Sorry, but no "mixed" feelings for me

WAY before we had instant media, video phones/ cameras, etc, the guy(s) that lay hands on a woman in public for ANY reason would have been stomped into a grease spot,, and let the cops sort it out later

Today, we have an army of Videographer wannabes looking to sell their video to the highest bidder

feh!

It seems by your estimate, the videographer is the villain here. Please! If this person was by chance the only other soul who could help...maybe you would have a point. But it seems you are trying to take some of the blame and shift it around a wee bit. You know, a little balance. Something for everyone.

132 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:37:23pm

re: #130 Obdicut

A lot of people are.

If you read books about WWII, you'll find that a certain number of people, in a combat situation, simply freeze up. It's got nothing to do with 'bravery'-- they might freeze standing up exposed to enemy fire. It's a physical thing. Their systems can't handle the stress.

And you can't tell before it happens, really.

Well. this is interesting.
But for me, my system moves into high gear.
And I'll let fly.

133 Obdicut  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:38:06pm

re: #129 reine.de.tout

I agree-- but I do think that you're overlooking that someone videotaping an incident is a good way to prevent it from getting out of control. I'm not saying the videographer did enough, but that the point that documentation is important is also a very valid one. I don't think documentation alone will stop a lot of the freaks out there, but it is much better than complete inaction-- which is, alas, the norm.

134 iossarian  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:40:01pm

re: #130 Obdicut

Exactly. I think this is the case with a lot of people.

I have a (very vague) theory that it actually tends to affect men more than women, because men are more likely to have experienced physical consequences to intervention (such as playground fights) in the past, and women are more likely to feel that they will not, themselves, be physically assaulted in return for intervening.

It's borne out by anecdotal experience for me.

135 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:40:19pm

re: #133 Obdicut

I agree-- but I do think that you're overlooking that someone videotaping an incident is a good way to prevent it from getting out of control. I'm not saying the videographer did enough, but that the point that documentation is important is also a very valid one. I don't think documentation alone will stop a lot of the freaks out there, but it is much better than complete inaction-- which is, alas, the norm.

I never made the point that the documentation was unimportant. Of course it is.

What surprised and upset me was:
1) No one stepped up to help this lady in time to keep her from being hurt, INCLUDING the videographer, who could clearly see what was happening, and apparently didn't even put the camera aside long enough to get someone else's attention, who could have intervened.

2) There are some folks here just fine with that. That is very upsetting to me.

136 iossarian  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:42:20pm

re: #135 reine.de.tout


2) There are some folks here just fine with that. That is very upsetting to me.

Depends what you mean by "just fine". There are lots of aspects of human nature that are not "just fine", but they're still human nature.

The flip side of not jumping in in such situations is being a non-violent person in general, which I think is a good thing. What would Jesus do, etc.?

137 Coachrichard  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:43:25pm

re: #121 reine.de.tout

Oh, for fuck's sake.
FIND WHERE I FOCUSED ON THE IDIOT VIDEOGRAPHER.
find it.

119

138 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:44:03pm

re: #136 iossarian

Depends what you mean by "just fine". There are lots of aspects of human nature that are not "just fine", but they're still human nature.

The flip side of not jumping in in such situations is being a non-violent person in general, which I think is a good thing. What would Jesus do, etc.?

re: #136 iossarian

Depends what you mean by "just fine". There are lots of aspects of human nature that are not "just fine", but they're still human nature.

The flip side of not jumping in in such situations is being a non-violent person in general, which I think is a good thing. What would Jesus do, etc.?

I do not believe Jesus would stand by and watch as a person got beat up by someone else.

Jesus was not non-violent, when there was a need to correct a wrong.

139 Obdicut  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:44:29pm

re: #135 reine.de.tout

2) There are some folks here just fine with that. That is very upsetting to me.

I really don't see anyone, not even Frank, saying they're just fine with that, but that it's explainable, or that it's human nature, or that an active resitance might have actually caused a larger problem. The last part, being speculative, is just moot to me. But I don't see anyone saying that they're just fine with inaction. Some are being honest that they, themselves, aren't people of action-- and from everything I've read and studied, that's not something to hold against people. Some people just aren't doers-- and I've had my moments of freezing up in crises,more than I'd like.

No one stepped up to help this lady in time to keep her from being hurt, INCLUDING the videographer, who could clearly see what was happening, and apparently didn't even put the camera aside long enough to get someone else's attention, who could have intervened.

Well, there were plenty of people paying attention-- I don't think attracting someone else's attention would have necessarily done anything. And I do think documenting it is an important thing in and of itself. I do, again, think the videographer should have done more-- but whether they could have done more, whether they had the psychological and physical faculties, I don't know.

I do think everyone who stood by bears some blame for that-- but nowhere near the level of import or blame that the actual assholes acting did.

140 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:45:18pm

re: #137 Coachrichard

119

119 was a response to what others were saying.
In subsequent comments, I laid out my opinion.
NOT focusing on the videographer.

Please take the posts I wrote giving MY opinion of the situation as more truth than my post quoting what others were saying.
There ya go.
It ain't hard.

141 Obdicut  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:46:21pm

re: #138 reine.de.tout

Jesus 'stood by' while two other people were executed next to him.

Admittedly, he was at the crisis point of his own narrative, and knew it was his fate to die on the cross, but he didn't act to save the thief-- he promised him a life in heaven, instead.

On the other hand, Jesus did stop people from stoning the prostitute-- but I don't think his point was simply stopping violence from occurring, but making an important point about the correctness of punishment on purely moral grounds.

Jesus as an actor/inactor is a pretty dense subject, I think.

142 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:46:25pm

re: #139 Obdicut

I really don't see anyone, not even Frank, saying they're just fine with that, but that it's explainable, or that it's human nature, or that an active resitance might have actually caused a larger problem. The last part, being speculative, is just moot to me. But I don't see anyone saying that they're just fine with inaction. Some are being honest that they, themselves, aren't people of action-- and from everything I've read and studied, that's not something to hold against people. Some people just aren't doers-- and I've had my moments of freezing up in crises,more than I'd like.

Well, there were plenty of people paying attention-- I don't think attracting someone else's attention would have necessarily done anything. And I do think documenting it is an important thing in and of itself. I do, again, think the videographer should have done more-- but whether they could have done more, whether they had the psychological and physical faculties, I don't know.

I do think everyone who stood by bears some blame for that-- but nowhere near the level of import or blame that the actual assholes acting did.


In full agreement on that.

It's just the conversation here was about what the videographer and others in the crowd did or did not do.

143 iossarian  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:46:41pm

re: #138 reine.de.tout

re: #136 iossarian
Jesus was not non-violent, when there was a need to correct a wrong.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the only instance of Jesus behaving violently is when he's throwing the money-changers out of the temple. Plus there's the whole "turn the other cheek thing".

I can't think of any examples of Jesus saying that we have a duty to use violence to defend others.

144 garhighway  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:47:05pm

re: #139 Obdicut

I really don't see anyone, not even Frank, saying they're just fine with that

Exactly.

145 Obdicut  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:48:32pm

re: #136 iossarian

Yeah, part of the reason I'm reticent to condemn people for inaction is twofold:

1. Quakers. Quakers were very important to me in my teenage life, and I retain a great fondness for them. A large number of them are 'pure' pacifists. They still would have definitely done something, but would have stopped short of personal action.

2. The fate of the Jews in WWII. A lot of people criticize the Jews for not being more pro-active in their own defense, for going along peaceably to their deaths, or, even if not resisting for their own lives, for their neighbors, children, parents.

146 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:48:49pm

re: #141 Obdicut

Jesus 'stood by' while two other people were executed next to him.

Admittedly, he was at the crisis point of his own narrative, and knew it was his fate to die on the cross, but he didn't act to save the thief-- he promised him a life in heaven, instead.

On the other hand, Jesus did stop people from stoning the prostitute-- but I don't think his point was simply stopping violence from occurring, but making an important point about the correctness of punishment on purely moral grounds.

Jesus as an actor/inactor is a pretty dense subject, I think.

Yeah.
I hate it when someone brings up the "What Would Jesus Do?".

He was not against action to right a wrong.
And as I said earlier - I see a wrong being done, I will do what I can. I'll admit shoving a woman who cut in line in front of a 6-year-old in a public bathroom, cause the woman was an asshole and that was a beastly bullying thing to do. The kid wasn't going to respond. So I responded for her. And it was the right thing to do, IMO.

*sigh*

147 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:50:22pm

re: #143 iossarian

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the only instance of Jesus behaving violently is when he's throwing the money-changers out of the temple. Plus there's the whole "turn the other cheek thing".

I can't think of any examples of Jesus saying that we have a duty to use violence to defend others.

Well - my tradition teaches me that to see wrong and let it be, is a wrong in itself.

And so I do what I can.

148 Coachrichard  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:50:41pm

re: #119 reine.de.tout

Find where I was focusing on the videographer.
I was talking about anyone, anyone coming to help the lady.
YOUR group was focusing on the videographer, and going on about how wonderful it was he got it all on video he can sell, rather than helping her, or encouraging someone else to help her.

Find where it was that I focused on the videographer.
Reading comprehension can be your friend.

There you go.
That was your opinion, or did I miss that quote.
I'm not trying to be an ass, but you are bringing this on yourself...

149 Obdicut  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:50:49pm

re: #146 reine.de.tout

I try to take action myself as often as I can, because I realize a lot of people can't, or won't. And because I had a violent youth, and so violence isn't foreign and scary to me.

But it really is something that freezes most people in their tracks. I swear, someone could just stand up at a restaurant, belt someone else in the mouth, and walk out, and everyone would just be standing there.

I don't think that's mostly a moral failing-- I think it's mostly the inexperience of the ordinary person with any sort of violence.

150 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:51:21pm

re: #148 Coachrichard

There you go.
That was your opinion, or did I miss that quote.
I'm not trying to be an ass, but you are bringing this on yourself...

I'm bringing nothing on myself.

I'm quite content being a person who will take action to prevent wrong, or right a wrong.

I'm just surprised there are so many here hatin' on me for it . . .

151 Obdicut  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:52:36pm

re: #150 reine.de.tout

I think everyone's upset and we're getting on each other's cases because we're frustrated and can't do anything.

152 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:53:07pm

re: #149 Obdicut

I try to take action myself as often as I can, because I realize a lot of people can't, or won't. And because I had a violent youth, and so violence isn't foreign and scary to me.

But it really is something that freezes most people in their tracks. I swear, someone could just stand up at a restaurant, belt someone else in the mouth, and walk out, and everyone would just be standing there.

I don't think that's mostly a moral failing-- I think it's mostly the inexperience of the ordinary person with any sort of violence.

You are probably correct. I have no experience with physical violence - but bullying, mental bullying particularly . . . well, I will let fly, as I said earlier. It's just so wrong.

153 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:53:09pm

re: #119 reine.de.tout

YOUR group was focusing on the videographer, and going on about how wonderful it was he got it all on video he can sell, rather than helping her, or encouraging someone else to help her.

As has been pointed out, a constant volume voice can be heard calling for the police as the camera pans around, likely the videographer's. They put the video up on YouTube, it's free for all, so I don't see a profit motive at play. Why they had to "put the camera aside" to conform to your idea of what proper action looks like is a genuine puzzler.

154 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:53:47pm

re: #153 goddamnedfrank

As has been pointed out, a constant volume voice can be heard calling for the police as the camera pans around, likely the videographer's. They put the video up on YouTube, it's free for all, so I don't see a profit motive at play. Why they had to "put the camera aside" to conform to your idea of what proper action looks like is a genuine puzzler.

Go. Away.

155 webevintage  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:54:03pm

That just might be the worst apology ever...

"But really officer it was your fault that I went after that activist who has every right to be here because I was afraid she would make Rand look bad....why didn't you get between her head and my foot?"

hahahahaha
TeaTard....

156 iossarian  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:54:19pm

re: #149 Obdicut

Domestic violence is another terrible dilemma - what do you do when you see a couple having a shouting match, or even worse yelling at their kids?

Especially since you know that, if you take them to task, it may well translate into an even worse situation for the victim down the line.

re: #151 Obdicut

I think everyone's upset and we're getting on each other's cases because we're frustrated and can't do anything.

This is the horror of contemporary American politics.

157 Obdicut  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:55:50pm

re: #156 iossarian

Yeah. Intervening in domestic violence will generally make them unite against you, according to every cop friend and social worker friend I have. Such a fucking terrible problem.

I have to shower and go see my friend Robert Alter give a talk about the difficulties of translating Job into English. Everyone have the best night they can.

158 garhighway  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:57:02pm

re: #150 reine.de.tout

I'm just surprised there are so many here hatin' on me for it . . .

Nobody is hating on you for your wanting to right the wrong. That is completely and utterly admirable.

It is your condemning people here for analyzing the situation (which, from several hundred miles and a day away is pretty much all that can be accomplished on a blog, absent the ability to alter the laws of time and space) that has people puzzled.

Just guessin'.

159 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:57:46pm

re: #153 goddamnedfrank

I say this as someone who once, after calling 911, held a drunken beligerant man at rifle point to stop him beating and stomping his girlfriend senseless in the parking lot below my old apartment in Seattle. The cops came, I agreed to testify, and he plea bargained. Sometimes all you have is a camera.

160 Coachrichard  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 1:58:06pm

re: #150 reine.de.tout

I'm bringing nothing on myself.

I'm quite content being a person who will take action to prevent wrong, or right a wrong.

I'm just surprised there are so many here hatin' on me for it . . .

I can only speak for myself of course, but I certainly don't hate you.

You seem to be saying, as has been pointed out, that the person who filmed this did something wrong. I disagree. I think he/she did the correct thing in recording the attack.

As others have pointed out, someone was yelling for the police. How do we know it wasn't the videographer?

I believe your anger and frustration are misplaced, that's all.

161 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 3:16:26pm

re: #160 Coachrichard

I can only speak for myself of course, but I certainly don't hate you.

You seem to be saying, as has been pointed out, that the person who filmed this did something wrong. I disagree. I think he/she did the correct thing in recording the attack.

As others have pointed out, someone was yelling for the police. How do we know it wasn't the videographer?

I believe your anger and frustration are misplaced, that's all.


What I'm saying is this:

That NO ONE took any action until the harm was done, is wrong.
That the videographer was one of the ones, among many, who watched and allowed the harm to happen, is wrong.
There is no doubt the video is a good thing to have.
I'm frustrated that people stood and watched until actual harm came to this lady, and did nothing.
And that there are some here who seem perfectly OK with it.
I have a handbag that weighs 10 lbs when fully loaded; I guarantee I could get someone's attention with it, if I had to, to keep them from beating up someone. If I can do it, someone there could have done something.

162 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 4:48:43pm

re: #161 reine.de.tout

What I'm saying is this:

That NO ONE took any action until the harm was done, is wrong.
That the videographer was one of the ones, among many, who watched and allowed the harm to happen, is wrong.
There is no doubt the video is a good thing to have.
I'm frustrated that people stood and watched until actual harm came to this lady, and did nothing.
And that there are some here who seem perfectly OK with it.
I have a handbag that weighs 10 lbs when fully loaded; I guarantee I could get someone's attention with it, if I had to, to keep them from beating up someone. If I can do it, someone there could have done something.

The only thing that anybody here is OK with is that the videographer was the only person who made damned sure that these fuckers weren't going to get away with it. We simply disagree with your contention that this constitutes inaction, or in any way "allowed" the harm to occur. It's perfectly reasonable to believe that putting the camera down and wading into the thick of the assault might have resulted in escalating the violence, a possible riot and even greater harm to the victim, on top of reducing the odds of justice being served.

Again, as someone who has actually stopped an assault on a woman in progress, it's more complicated than it looks. I had the advantage of controlling the high ground, had already called 911, and was in possession of a lever action long rifle. Condemning someone in the midst of an angry crowd because they only documented an assault while calling out for police aid seems like a rather unrealistic assessment of human nature.

163 funky chicken  Tue, Oct 26, 2010 5:11:19pm

re: #50 celticdragon

So the Hutaree militia, Tim McVeigh, abortion clinic bombers and snipers, guys who shoot up left wing church congregations and would be Tides CEO assassins really don't have anything in common and are not relevant except for knowing their ID.

Words fail.

They have a fair bit in common with those fellows who like to shoot up Jewish community centers though.

Oh Lord....I think I kinda Godwined myself there.

164 ClaudeMonet  Wed, Oct 27, 2010 12:02:40am

re: #25 celticdragon

The magical balance faerie needed some ice bags, a shot of Scotch and a long shower after Rand got through with her.

The bastard didn't even leave a decent tip.

Bourbon, son, we're talking about Kentucky here. None of that furriner whiskey.

re: #35 aagcobb

You know, there are assholes everywhere, not just in Kentucky.

But Kentucky has more than its share of them, especially the uneducated type. I say this as someone who lives less than 10 miles from KY.

re: #57 Dreggas

Don't forget they have that whole "Our religion is number one and only we know how it's supposed to be taught" thing going on. They really are coming to resemble the taliban.

The Taliban at least know some of their holy book and pretend to study it, even if they grossly misinterpret it. These guys don't know sh**.

165 ClaudeMonet  Wed, Oct 27, 2010 12:05:55am

re: #74 iossarian

It's the same way reporters (especially photographers) justify their non-intervention in humanitarian disasters - they can achieve more by maintaining distance than by giving immediate assistance.

Yes, but IMO the "achieve more" is about their ratings and careers rather than helping people cope with the disaster.


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