Wingnuts Reject Science (Again)

WingnutsOctober 2010 • Views: 10,540

Sometimes I wake up, have some coffee, load up Tweetdeck to check Twitter, and discover that all the wingnuts are chattering excitedly about a crushing new post by someone that really puts me in my place, smacks me down, and destroys the last shreds of my credibility. Seems to happen every few days.

They’ve used that “last shreds” line dozens of times; where do these shreds keep coming from?

Today’s incredibly lame credibility-shredding post appears at the website of Patterico: Charles Johnson Shreds the Last of his Credibility Discussing the Stewart Rally.

It was intellectual dishonesty, for instance in the controversy when Barack Obama bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia. First he posted video that supposedly showed that “Bush bowed too.” Then when called on the lie he told, he added the word “metaphorically” without noting the change in his post. I watched him do it in real time and called him on the change. He lied to my virtual “face” about it with a comment directed at me, and my account was banned, a familiar story. Now he has completely rewritten that post.

All the claims about me in that paragraph are pure and simple lies. I didn’t rewrite anything. I’m such a boogeyman to these people now that they resort to just making things up.

(By the way, Bush did bow to the Saudis, over and over, both literally and metaphorically.)

But the point of this dumb post, what author Aaron Worthing believes is the shredder of my last shred, is the usual tedious claim that the Glenn Beck 9/11 rally was much, much larger than yesterday’s Stewart-Colbert rally. Wingnuts are nothing if not predictable; they do this every time.

And the latest from Johnson is now he is bull___ting about Stewart’s rally. Like I said, I don’t care about crowd size at these things, but I do expect honesty on the subject. So as of now, Johnson has a post that proclaims that 215K attended the Stewart rally. And to prove it, he quotes CBS news…

It’s not really a surprise to see the wingers rejecting scientific measurements — it’s what they do — but if anyone’s interested in how the crowd estimates are calculated by AirPhotosLive (not CBS News), here’s an excellent page at Microsoft Photosynth that shows how they measured the Beck rally: Crowd Counting tools at Beck-Palin Rally.

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219 comments

bratwurst Sun, Oct 31, 2010 10:44:45am

Gee, couldn't have predicted a comparison of rally attendance would become a contentious issue!

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 10:45:11am

///And to think all of this could have been avoided if only Mr. Stewart hadn't been such a lazy liberal and actually gone through with his idea to have everyone count off by passing the mike around.....

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 10:45:57am

re: #1 bratwurst

Gee, couldn't have predicted a comparison of rally attendance would become a contentious issue!

Its the newest rightwing magic trick, they can make anything into a contentious issue.

If Obama said puppies are adorable the right would point out that do you know who else liked dogs? HITLER!

Sol Berdinowitz Sun, Oct 31, 2010 10:46:48am

re: #2 jamesfirecat

///And to think all of this could have been avoided if only Mr. Stewart hadn't been such a lazy liberal and actually gone through with his idea to have everyone count off by passing the mike around...

ACORN operatives would've had people running around to the back of the crowe to be counted twice...

PhillyPretzel Sun, Oct 31, 2010 10:46:54am

Why am I not surprised? Anything of factual value is debunked and anything that is fictious is praised. Oy

Obdicut Sun, Oct 31, 2010 10:47:03am

I'd like to note that even if someone is claiming the methodology used is flawed, the fact that the same methodology is used in both cases would mean they'd have to demonstrate how this methodology favored the Steward event and not the Beck event.

The basic assumption should be that since the same methodology was used, even if the numbers weren't absolutely accurate they'd be accurate as a comparison.

I haven't seen any of the critics actually assemble a meaningful critique of the methodology on any level, of course, much less one that'd demonstrate that.

Sol Berdinowitz Sun, Oct 31, 2010 10:47:42am

What methodology is used in determining penis size?

webevintage Sun, Oct 31, 2010 10:50:43am

re: #6 Obdicut

I'd like to note that even if someone is claiming the methodology used is flawed, the fact that the same methodology is used in both cases would mean they'd have to demonstrate how this methodology favored the Steward event and not the Beck event.

But that would require the critics to use logic...

Charles Johnson Sun, Oct 31, 2010 10:52:13am

That latest outrageous outrage from Sarah Palin and Andrew Breitbart is about to blow up in their faces again.

The tape that they claim shows journalists plotting to damage Joe Miller was another case of blatant distortion. I'm about to put up the statement from KTVA in Alaska.

webevintage Sun, Oct 31, 2010 10:53:15am

I hate to go OT so early, but Greg Sargent has a post at The Plumb Line about the TV station in Alaska's Joe Miller comments and how they are probably bullshit and Breitbert is once again making an outrage out of something that was not actually outrageous:

[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

webevintage Sun, Oct 31, 2010 10:53:55am

re: #9 Charles

That latest outrageous outrage from Sarah Palin and Andrew Breitbart is about to blow up in their faces again.

The tape that they claim shows journalists plotting to damage Joe Miller was another case of blatant distortion. I'm about to put up the statement from KTVA in Alaska.

Great minds and all that....

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 10:54:28am

re: #6 Obdicut

I'd like to note that even if someone is claiming the methodology used is flawed, the fact that the same methodology is used in both cases would mean they'd have to demonstrate how this methodology favored the Steward event and not the Beck event.

The basic assumption should be that since the same methodology was used, even if the numbers weren't absolutely accurate they'd be accurate as a comparison.

I haven't seen any of the critics actually assemble a meaningful critique of the methodology on any level, of course, much less one that'd demonstrate that.

///

A: Reality has a well known liberal bias.

B:The numbers were determined due to real factual methods biased in reality.

A+ B-->C: The methodology used would be prone to producing numbers with numbers with a bias towards liberals.

There your methodological critique for yah!

Interesting Times Sun, Oct 31, 2010 10:56:02am

re: #12 jamesfirecat

I like this version I read the other day :)

"base FOX = 1 + 10^4"

darthstar Sun, Oct 31, 2010 10:58:45am

If you lost your last shred of credibility, Charles, you'd be on ABC doing election coverage. :)

researchok Sun, Oct 31, 2010 10:59:45am

The only numbers that count are tallied at polling places.

That truth applies to elections past, present and future.

HappyWarrior Sun, Oct 31, 2010 10:59:53am

Whine baby whine.

GapDude Sun, Oct 31, 2010 10:59:55am

LOL,
like leftists and liberals do not fudge numbers? The stimulus bill was passed to keep unemployment rate below 8%. Every lib promised that the porkulus would keep it below 8%. Whereas, 800 billion USD later, the rate is 10%. But of course, only the eeevil right wingers fudge numbers. Yippee

GapDude Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:01:25am

re: #16 HappyWarrior

We shall see who is whining after Nov 4th.

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:02:48am

re: #15 researchok

The only numbers that count are tallied at polling places.

That truth applies to elections past, present and future.

They're doubtlessly the numbers that count for quite a bit come election day, but until then, we can't allow wing nuts any wiggle room when it comes to allowing their projections of reality to supersede a provable truth.

It's the same with elections. In the grand scheme of things who had a bigger rally doesn't mater, but the fact that they want to argue that 87,000 is greater than 215,000 does....

Gus Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:03:04am

They reject science and the plainly obvious. They're using an image of the Restore Sanity rally taken early in the day:

Image: beck-stewart-1.jpg

However is we look at the photo at the CBS site we can see it filled in beyond the photo linked above:

Image: stewart_colbert_rally_aerial_1_620x350.JPG

The reference point is the white vertical structure towards the bottom of the photo located slight right of center.

Then there is this image I just located. Clearly, more Americans attended the Rally for Sanity then those for Beck -- 215,000 vs. 87,000.

Interesting Times Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:03:14am

re: #17 GapDude

Thank you, Twajie, for admitting the Beck rally numbers were fudged :)

jaunte Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:03:18am

re: #17 GapDude

Do you have some answer for Obdicut's question above?

...the fact that the same methodology is used in both cases would mean they'd have to demonstrate how this methodology favored the Steward event and not the Beck event.

How do you think the alleged 'fudging' occurred?

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:03:24am

re: #17 GapDude

LOL,
like leftists and liberals do not fudge numbers? The stimulus bill was passed to keep unemployment rate below 8%. Every lib promised that the porkulus would keep it below 8%. Whereas, 800 billion USD later, the rate is 10%. But of course, only the eeevil right wingers fudge numbers. Yippee

Er, accepting your numbers, failed predictions are a little different from flat-out lying about what the numbers are.

But of course, you don't care, you just have to find some way that the libs are 'just as bad', so you don't actually need to think critically, or decide if such lying affects the credibility of specific people who lie.

If you see the world as a game of one-up between 'leftists and liberals', and the folks being smeared as 'eeevil right-wingers', you won't get any farther than the next snippet of out-of-context information. Word to the wise, dude.

JeffFX Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:03:28am

re: #18 GapDude

We shall see who is whining after Nov 4th.

People who care about America, research the candidates, and don't want morons to be in charge?

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:03:50am

re: #18 GapDude

We shall see who is whining after Nov 4th.

It'll still be the Tea Party people. Whining through victory.

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:04:07am

re: #17 GapDude

LOL,
like leftists and liberals do not fudge numbers? The stimulus bill was passed to keep unemployment rate below 8%. Every lib promised that the porkulus would keep it below 8%. Whereas, 800 billion USD later, the rate is 10%. But of course, only the eeevil right wingers fudge numbers. Yippee

Yes because the Democrats can control the economy to the point that they determine how many people corporations will lay and how many they will hire.

If you want your government to have that kind of power to determine unemployment rates just by moving numbers around move to a communist nation where everyone truly is employed by the state.

darthstar Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:04:16am

re: #9 Charles

That latest outrageous outrage from Sarah Palin and Andrew Breitbart is about to blow up in their faces again.

The tape that they claim shows journalists plotting to damage Joe Miller was another case of blatant distortion. I'm about to put up the statement from KTVA in Alaska.

Andrew Breitbart might just get to be the first "analyst" hired by a major network go get fired before he ever appears on the air. Wouldn't that be sweet?

bratwurst Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:04:19am

re: #18 GapDude

We shall see who is whining after Nov 4th.

See you at the Sharron Angle/Rand Paul victory parade!

GapDude Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:05:16am

re: #22 jaunte

So,
Both sides fudge all the time. What I do not like is the way liberal number fudging is glossed over at LGF and right wing number fudging is bashed. In a sane world, no one should fudge numbers.

HappyWarrior Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:05:40am

re: #18 GapDude

We shall see who is whining after Nov 4th.

Meh, I'm realistic. I don't blame voter fraud every time my party loses.

GapDude Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:06:04am

re: #24 JeffFX

No,
America hating left kooks, who want to sell our futures to China and other creditors sure will be

Interesting Times Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:06:16am

re: #25 SanFranciscoZionist

It'll still be the Tea Party people. Whining through victory.

It's hard for me to decide what's worse, sore losers or sore winners? Of course, right-wing radicals eminently succeed in being both.

Gus Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:06:20am

re: #31 GapDude

No,
America hating left kooks, who want to sell our futures to China and other creditors sure will be

LOL

jaunte Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:06:35am

re: #29 GapDude

So, just an assertion. I thought maybe you had some new information.

irving Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:06:36am

re: #24 JeffFX

People who care about America, research the candidates, and don't want morons to be in charge?

To quote my favorite author: Wouldn't it be pretty to think so...

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:06:37am

re: #29 GapDude

So,
Both sides fudge all the time. What I do not like is the way liberal number fudging is glossed over at LGF and right wing number fudging is bashed. In a sane world, no one should fudge numbers.

Your example of liberals fudging numbers is pathetic however.

Democrats could only make predictions based on how many government jobs the stimulus should create they didn't have any control over how the private sector would react....

JeffFX Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:06:46am

re: #29 GapDude

So,
Both sides fudge all the time. What I do not like is the way liberal number fudging is glossed over at LGF and right wing number fudging is bashed. In a sane world, no one should fudge numbers.

Please provide examples at LGF to prove that this isn't just your own bias talking.

GapDude Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:07:00am

re: #30 HappyWarrior

LMAO,

Al-Bore and the libs still whine about the "stolen election". Please, have atleast a tad bit of honesty

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:07:06am

re: #31 GapDude

No,
America hating left kooks, who want to sell our futures to China and other creditors sure will be

Yes I'm sure they will be upset.

Do you actually know any people like that though?

Gus Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:07:19am

We're already at the China owns the USA conspiracy. That was fast.

Troll.

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:07:50am

re: #32 publicityStunted

It's hard for me to decide what's worse, sore losers or sore winners? Of course, right-wing radicals eminently succeed in being both.

Sore winners are worse.

Sore losers at least have something real to complain about...

Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:07:58am

re: #18 GapDude

We shall see who is whining after Nov 4th.

I'll leave you with this ahead of time.

Youtube Video

It might come in handy.

jaunte Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:08:02am

re: #40 Gus 802

They're buying up all our Buicks!

Vicious Babushka Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:08:40am

re: #22 jaunte

Do you have some answer for Obdicut's question above?

How do you think the alleged 'fudging' occurred?

Packing, of course.

/zing

RadicalModerate Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:08:54am

re: #20 Gus 802

They reject science and the plainly obvious. They're using an image of the Restore Sanity rally taken early in the day:

Image: beck-stewart-1.jpg

However is we look at the photo at the CBS site we can see it filled in beyond the photo linked above:

Image: stewart_colbert_rally_aerial_1_620x350.JPG

The reference point is the white vertical structure towards the bottom of the photo located slight right of center.

Then there is this image I just located. Clearly, more Americans attended the Rally for Sanity then those for Beck -- 215,000 vs. 87,000.

The first image you linked was seriously photoshopped - take a look at the elongated length of the reflecting pool on the left image, and how much the right image is vertically compressed - as evidenced by the distortion of the Capitol building. Also, the oval around the Beck crowd goes *behind* the Lincoln Memorial, when his rally was held in front, near the steps.

Gus Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:09:01am

re: #43 jaunte

They're buying up all our Buicks!

Yes indeed! At least according to undisclosed intelligence sources.

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:09:07am

re: #29 GapDude

So,
Both sides fudge all the time. What I do not like is the way liberal number fudging is glossed over at LGF and right wing number fudging is bashed. In a sane world, no one should fudge numbers.

True. So, let's admit that the people at Patterico are smoking something, and move on....ah, but we can't do that, can we, until the ritual scourging of the lefties and the libs is done?

OK, so find me an example of number fudging from left field and I shall bash it. And no, failure to predict unemployment down the road does not actually count.

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:10:13am

re: #38 GapDude

LMAO,

Al-Bore and the libs still whine about the "stolen election". Please, have atleast a tad bit of honesty

Just about everyone I know has dropped this. Are you sure these aren't just the libs in your imagination?

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:10:30am

re: #40 Gus 802

We're already at the China owns the USA conspiracy. That was fast.

Troll.

Standard-issue.

Gus Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:11:08am

re: #45 RadicalModerate

The first image you linked was seriously photoshopped - take a look at the elongated length of the reflecting pool on the left image, and how much the right image is vertically compressed - as evidenced by the distortion of the Capitol building. Also, the oval around the Beck crowd goes *behind* the Lincoln Memorial, when his rally was held in front, near the steps.

Oh, could be. But those are opposite views along the pond. One faces the US Capitol building and the other the Lincoln Memorial. I forgot to link that other photo I found:

Image: AoxXh.jpg

Interesting Times Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:11:25am

re: #40 Gus 802

We're already at the China owns the USA conspiracy.

Actually, China will wind up leaving the US in the dust if the Tea Party's anti-science, pro-tax-breaks-for-outsourcing-businesses agenda gets more powerful. So, in infinite irony, they're whining about the very thing they're helping to bring about.

Gus Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:12:11am

re: #50 Gus 802

Oh, could be. But those are opposite views along the pond. One faces the US Capitol building and the other the Lincoln Memorial. I forgot to link that other photo I found:

Image: AoxXh.jpg

As you can see. Way more Americans attended the Stewart-Colbert rally.

Checkmate wingnuts!

Gus Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:13:40am

re: #51 publicityStunted

Actually, China will wind up leaving the US in the dust if the Tea Party's anti-science, pro-tax-breaks-for-outsourcing-businesses agenda gets more powerful. So, in infinite irony, they're whining about the very thing they're helping to bring about.

I was reading this morning. Did you know that about 20 percent of Americans think that the Sun revolves around the Earth? That is they believe in Geocentrism. No doubt the GOP will only make those numbers worse.

HappyWarrior Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:14:10am

re: #38 GapDude

LMAO,

Al-Bore and the libs still whine about the "stolen election". Please, have atleast a tad bit of honesty

And the conservatives who whine about ACORN stealing every election they've lost i,e, Obama and Doug Hoffman in upstate New York? You're just upest because you know your side is equally as whiny and pathetic when it comes to dealing with election loses as the liberals you hate.

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:14:54am

re: #53 Gus 802

I was reading this morning. Did you know that about 20 percent of Americans think that the Sun revolves around the Earth? That is they believe in Geocentrism. No doubt the GOP will only make those numbers worse.

Thus further proving my theory that 20% is the baseline number of people you can get to agree with anything. That 1 out of five guys who doesn't believe in heliocentirism, I bet he's the same dentist who doesn't like Crest.....

GapDude Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:15:27am

re: #51 publicityStunted

By anti-science you mean the Dems environut policy, that have put us into dependent on the Chinese for rare earths? No?

Wozza Matter? Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:17:01am

is somebody going for a record?

Varek Raith Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:17:05am

re: #17 GapDude

re: #18 GapDude

Lol.
It's Nov. 2.
And I'll be cheering one the crazies in your party to win.
I bet you the barn the GOP won't be able to control the monster they unleashed.
Schadenfreude, baby!

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:17:09am

re: #56 GapDude

By anti-science you mean the Dems environut policy, that have put us into dependent on the Chinese for rare earths? No?

"that have put us into dependent on the Chinese for rare earths? "

What does this even mean?

GapDude Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:17:40am

\re: #54 HappyWarrior

I have no sympathy of left or right wing whiners. But I do have a problem when only the right wing is pained as whiners.

Varek Raith Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:18:46am

re: #56 GapDude

By anti-science you mean the Dems environut policy, that have put us into dependent on the Chinese for rare earths? No?

Did it ever occur to you that China just happens to be the place for most rare earth metals?
You do know that the resources of the planet are not evenly distributed, yes?

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:18:48am

re: #56 GapDude

By anti-science you mean the Dems environut policy, that have put us into dependent on the Chinese for rare earths? No?

'Environut'.

Words That Clue You In That You're Dealing With Someone Who Thinks Almost Exclusively In Talking Points and NewOldSpeak.

Wozza Matter? Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:18:56am

re: #60 GapDude

It's not that difficult when you are so very helpful.

GapDude Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:19:00am

re: #59 jamesfirecat

whoops the spelling and grammar police strike again. What I meant is that the left enviroloons shut the last domestic rare earth mine. So now, China has a 95% monopoly on rare earth supplies

Wozza Matter? Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:19:31am

re: #61 Varek Raith

Did it ever occur to you that China just happens to be the place for most rare earth metals?
You do know that the resources of the planet are not evenly distributed, yes?

american exceptionalism 111111tY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:19:43am

re: #59 jamesfirecat

"that have put us into dependent on the Chinese for rare earths? "

What does this even mean?

Stewardess, I speak Wingnut!

He means, 'which have made us dependent on China for rare earths'.

Now, not sure that helps, but it is what he MEANS.

jaunte Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:20:14am

re: #56 GapDude

By anti-science you mean the Dems environut policy, that have put us into dependent on the Chinese for rare earths? No?

It's not a 'Dem' policy, it's new technology, and everyone is investing in it.
China invested $34.5 billion in clean energy technologies last year,(Bloomberg New Energy Finance). The United States spent $18.6 billion.

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:20:19am

re: #60 GapDude

I have no sympathy of left or right wing whiners. But I do have a problem when only the right wing is pained as whiners.

Yes, yes, I'm sure you're over at Hot Air every day, chiding people for only talking about lefty malfeasance.

Varek Raith Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:20:26am

re: #66 SanFranciscoZionist

Stewardess, I speak Wingnut!

He means, 'which have made us dependent on China for rare earths'.

Now, not sure that helps, but it is what he MEANS.

We'd be dependent on them anyway. We just don't have enough of them in the US>

Gus Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:20:30am

re: #56 GapDude

By anti-science you mean the Dems environut policy, that have put us into dependent on the Chinese for rare earths? No?

That's because China has little to no environmental policy. Did you ever bother to see how the Chinese live in their toxic nation? You can easily by poisoned by their toothpaste and gypsum products. The reason they sell more rare Earths is because the lack of environmental policy allows them to destroy everything in their path and sell it for a lower price.

Oh, and the initiator of that "environut" policy you speak of was signed off by none other than President Richard M. Nixon (R).

Tell me. Do you like clean, airs, water and soils? Or do you prefer to drink toxic water as they do in many places in China?

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:20:50am

re: #61 Varek Raith

Did it ever occur to you that China just happens to be the place for most rare earth metals?
You do know that the resources of the planet are not evenly distributed, yes?

But Sharron Angle said...God gave us this stuff...and if we just deregulate, and dig deeper...

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:21:19am

re: #64 GapDude

whoops the spelling and grammar police strike again. What I meant is that the left enviroloons shut the last domestic rare earth mine. So now, China has a 95% monopoly on rare earth supplies

Where was the Last Domestic Rare Earth Mine?

Charles Johnson Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:21:38am

We have a live one here.

Varek Raith Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:21:39am

re: #60 GapDude

Amusingly enough, you sure are whining.
A lot.
;)

jaunte Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:21:50am

re: #71 SanFranciscoZionist

Unfortuantely for Angle, the mining interests in Nevada favor Harry Reid.

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:21:56am

re: #69 Varek Raith

We'd be dependent on them anyway. We just don't have enough of them in the US>

STOP THAT!!! WE COULD FIND MORE IF THE ENVIRONUTS WOULD STOP PERSECUTING US!!!

GapDude Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:22:03am

re: #65 wozzablog

Maybe, but it did also occur to me that, if the "pro-science" left wing loons had not shut the US rare earth mines, we would not be so dependent on China. So, just because China has (possibly) the world's bulk of rare earths, we should shut down our mines?

Liberal logic 101 I guess.

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:22:19am

re: #64 GapDude

whoops the spelling and grammar police strike again. What I meant is that the left enviroloons shut the last domestic rare earth mine. So now, China has a 95% monopoly on rare earth supplies

Its not being the spelling and grammar police when your mis-pellings get in teh way off people under standign what you mean.

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:22:35am

re: #73 Charles

We have a live one here.

"Live" is a relative term, Charles. We have one here.

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:23:02am

re: #75 jaunte

Unfortuantely for Angle, the mining interests in Nevada favor Harry Reid.

I'm sure that is also the environuts fault. They give stolen ACORN money to Big Mining, you see.

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:23:04am

re: #70 Gus 802

That's because China has little to no environmental policy. Did you ever bother to see how the Chinese live in their toxic nation? You can easily by poisoned by their toothpaste and gypsum products. The reason they sell more rare Earths is because the lack of environmental policy allows them to destroy everything in their path and sell it for a lower price.

Oh, and the initiator of that "environut" policy you speak of was signed off by none other than President Richard M. Nixon (R).

Tell me. Do you like clean, airs, water and soils? Or do you prefer to drink toxic water as they do in many places in China?

///Toxins cull the weak they make the next generations of Americans stronger!

GapDude Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:23:21am

re: #78 jamesfirecat

Actually I can understand your sentence, in spite of your spelling errors. The human mind is powerful.

Varek Raith Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:23:34am

re: #70 Gus 802

Radiate the skies!
It'll make you stronger!

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:23:37am

re: #77 GapDude

Maybe, but it did also occur to me that, if the "pro-science" left wing loons had not shut the US rare earth mines, we would not be so dependent on China. So, just because China has (possibly) the world's bulk of rare earths, we should shut down our mines?

Liberal logic 101 I guess.

Seriously, dude. Where was that last domestic rare earths mine, and when did it shut down? Can you visit? Are there t-shirts?

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:24:17am

re: #77 GapDude

Maybe, but it did also occur to me that, if the "pro-science" left wing loons had not shut the US rare earth mines, we would not be so dependent on China. So, just because China has (possibly) the world's bulk of rare earths, we should shut down our mines?

Liberal logic 101 I guess.

What about the argument that rare earth minerals can not be obtained safely in the sense of without doing massive damage to our nation's environment which already took a beating due to BP this summer....

Varek Raith Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:24:32am

re: #84 SanFranciscoZionist

Seriously, dude. Where was that last domestic rare earths mine, and when did it shut down? Can you visit? Are there t-shirts?

That wasn't on the talking point list.

jaunte Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:24:36am

re: #77 GapDude

You're in a rare panic for no reason:

Molycorp raised about three hundred eighty million dollars when it sold stock to the public for the first time in July. The company aims to increase production to twenty thousand tons by two thousand twelve. It says that would more than meet current levels of demand in the United States.
[Link: www.voanews.com...]

GapDude Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:25:10am

re: #80 SanFranciscoZionist

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The key statement: China now produces over 97% of the world's rare earth supply, mostly in Inner Mongolia,[7][10] even though it has only 37% of proven reserves.[11]. Thanks for nothing, enviros

Varek Raith Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:25:13am

re: #87 jaunte

You're in a rare panic for no reason:

Aw, man!
Way to ruin our fun!
:)

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:25:23am

re: #82 GapDude

Actually I can understand your sentence, in spite of your spelling errors. The human mind is powerful.

That was the f***ing point. You left of the word "Minerals" and it totally derails the point of your post were as my on purpose mistakes don't ruin mine.

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:25:47am

re: #85 jamesfirecat

What about the argument that rare earth minerals can not be obtained safely in the sense of without doing massive damage to our nation's environment which already took a beating due to BP this summer...

Also known as 'it's good to poke the fire with China's hand'.

Varek Raith Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:26:31am

re: #88 GapDude

So you want the US to be the toxic hellhole that China is?
Awesome.

JeffFX Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:26:41am

re: #84 SanFranciscoZionist

It appears that rare earths are being mined here, and they're ramping up to full production.

[Link: www.molycorp.com...]

GapDude Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:26:47am

re: #85 jamesfirecat

In case of a war, if China shuts down our rare earth supplies, our clean environment cannot help us win. Sometimes trade-offs have to be made. Life is not perfect.

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:27:06am

re: #86 Varek Raith

That wasn't on the talking point list.

I want a t-shirt.

"The Enviroloons Shut Down The Last Domestic Rare-Earths Mine, And All I Got Was Clean Water And This Lousy T-Shirt Which Was Made In China By Glow-In-The-Dark Labor"

(I'm busty. I think it would all fit, in the right font.)

Charles Johnson Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:27:27am

Won't someone think of the rare earths? Why do libruls hate Rare Earth?

Youtube Video

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:27:41am

re: #94 GapDude

In case of a war, if China shuts down our rare earth supplies, our clean environment cannot help us win. Sometimes trade-offs have to be made. Life is not perfect.

In case of war between the US and China. We're all already f***ed because it'll probably end up going nuclear as soon as somebody starts to loose.

Varek Raith Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:27:57am

re: #94 GapDude

In case of a war, if China shuts down our rare earth supplies, our clean environment cannot help us win. Sometimes trade-offs have to be made. Life is not perfect.

And it they did that, we'd shut down trade with them.
You don't seem to realize that China needs us just as much, if not more, as we need them.

GapDude Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:28:00am

re: #93 JeffFX

Very good.

100

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:28:02am

re: #88 GapDude

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The key statement: China now produces over 97% of the world's rare earth supply, mostly in Inner Mongolia,[7][10] even though it has only 37% of proven reserves.[11]. Thanks for nothing, enviros

So tell me, piece by piece how it happened. What key pieces of legislation are you concerned with, and how did the 'enviros' influence them? What were their stated concerns? How would you counter those concerns?

101

jaunte Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:28:07am

U.S. Defense Department Sees No Rare-Earths Crisis, May Aid U.S. Producers

102

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:28:19am

re: #98 Varek Raith

And it they did that, we'd shut down trade with them.
You don't seem to realize that China needs us just as much, if not more, as we need them.

That's why they make such good Frenemies!

103

JeffFX Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:28:42am

People who think in talking points remind me of alcoholics at the height of their disease. There's just not a reasoning person there anymore.

104

Interesting Times Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:28:54am

re: #98 Varek Raith

And it they did that, we'd shut down trade with them.
You don't seem to realize that China needs us just as much, if not more, as we need them.

Exactly. Why would they kill off their best customers? :/

105

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:29:02am

re: #93 JeffFX

It appears that rare earths are being mined here, and they're ramping up to full production.

[Link: www.molycorp.com...]

Wait, wait, wait. That doesn't make any sense. I've been assured by GapDude that it's all over here, because of the eviros!

106

GapDude Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:29:37am

re: #96 Charles

Maybe you can ask the libruls that shut down the last US rare earth mine

107

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:29:38am

re: #94 GapDude

In case of a war, if China shuts down our rare earth supplies, our clean environment cannot help us win. Sometimes trade-offs have to be made. Life is not perfect.

This fantasy is getting too involved for me.

108

JeffFX Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:29:56am

re: #88 GapDude

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The key statement: China now produces over 97% of the world's rare earth supply, mostly in Inner Mongolia,[7][10] even though it has only 37% of proven reserves.[11]. Thanks for nothing, enviros

As has been pointed out, thank those "enviroloons" for the clean air that wingnuts breathe too.

109

jaunte Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:30:12am

October 30, 2010:

China accounts for about 36 percent of global rare-earth reserves, the largest share, and the U.S. is second, with 13 percent, according to the U.S. Geological Survey. Chinese officials including Premier Wen Jiabao have said the country has not halted shipments of material and will continue to supply the material. [Link: www.bloomberg.com...]

110

Sol Berdinowitz Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:30:35am

re: #22 jaunte

Do you have some answer for Obdicut's question above?

How do you think the alleged 'fudging' occurred?

The Beck suppoerters were more closely packed than the Stewart rally, so this is a case of what crowd statisticians call "fudge-packing"

111

GapDude Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:31:01am

re: #102 jamesfirecat

China is developing their own internal market. The day will not be far off when they do not need us anymore. So let me get this straight, you want to be at someone else's mercy as you believe that that person is at your mercy as well?

112

Varek Raith Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:31:33am

re: #106 GapDude

Maybe you can ask the libruls that shut down the last US rare earth mine

Dude, how can we still be mining the stuff then?
There's a hole in your logic.
;)

113

Gus Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:31:59am

re: #101 jaunte

U.S. Defense Department Sees No Rare-Earths Crisis, May Aid U.S. Producers

Facts! Facts!

Govt cracks whip on rare earth mining
(China Daily)

China will launch a five-month nationwide crackdown on illegal mining of rare earth starting next month in a major bid to protect its valuable resources.

Wang Min, vice-minister of land and resources, said at a video conference on Thursday that the ministry will set up a long-term supervision system to better regulate the rare earth mining market.

Precious metal mines like rare earth, tungsten, antimony, alumina clay and fluorite will all be targeted in the campaign, Wang said.

"The campaign aims to clamp down on illegal mining activities like mining without licenses, over exploration and environmental damage," he said.

Continutes.

114

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:32:02am

re: #106 GapDude

Maybe you can ask the libruls that shut down the last US rare earth mine

OK, if you can't explain where this place was, will you point me to the website you got this talking point from, so I can look into it myself?

115

jaunte Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:32:03am

The alchemy of fear.

116

JeffFX Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:32:24am

re: #112 Varek Raith

Dude, how can we still be mining the stuff then?
There's a hole in your logic.
;)

Babylon 5 flashback: "There's a hole in your mind"

117

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:32:38am

re: #108 JeffFX

As has been pointed out, thank those "enviroloons" for the clean air that wingnuts breathe too.

They don't care. They think they'd rather live in a poisoned environment because then they'd feel safe.

118

Ericus58 Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:32:45am

re: #61 Varek Raith

Did it ever occur to you that China just happens to be the place for most rare earth metals?
You do know that the resources of the planet are not evenly distributed, yes?

ah, not defending this troll...
but China is not the only place for most of these rare earths - there's a big source in Australia also, and in other regions.
It's just that China is willing to subject it's population to the pollution while other nations are trying to mitigate the results or waiting for better processes to be developed.
There will be resumption of mining now in other regions - due to the rising cost from the Chinese and better methods being developed.

119

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:32:45am

re: #111 GapDude

China is developing their own internal market. The day will not be far off when they do not need us anymore. So let me get this straight, you want to be at someone else's mercy as you believe that that person is at your mercy as well?

No I don't.

Luckily several people hear argue that there is no rare earth mineral shortage and have provided links, would you care to give me a reason not to believe them?

120

Gus Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:32:54am

re: #111 GapDude

God your dumb. China thrives on the USA as their best customer.

121

Varek Raith Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:33:09am

re: #111 GapDude

Also, why do you need China to be the next Soviet Union?
Hell, who do conservatives in general need this???

122

GapDude Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:33:30am

re: #114 SanFranciscoZionist

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...] Google was invented some time ago. Google is your friend. I Cannot help it if you are too lazy to do your own research

123

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:34:16am

re: #121 Varek Raith

Also, why do you need China to be the next Soviet Union?
Hell, who do conservatives in general need this???

Because how the f*** else can you justify us spending about as much on the military as the rest of the planet put together?

124

GapDude Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:34:23am

re: #121 Varek Raith

I do not, but I guess the liberals do, which is why they keep trying to destroy our domestic industries with more and more laws and regulations

125

JeffFX Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:34:26am

re: #122 GapDude

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...] Google was invented some time ago. Google is your friend. I Cannot help it if you are too lazy to do your own research

It was Google that turned up rare earth mining in the US. Don't be a dick, especially while projecting your own failings.

126

Varek Raith Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:34:35am

re: #122 GapDude

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...] Google was invented some time ago. Google is your friend. I Cannot help it if you are too lazy to do your own research

Okely dokely

It is presently inactive, but is projected to reopen in 2011.

127

jaunte Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:34:42am

re: #114 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, if you can't explain where this place was, will you point me to the website you got this talking point from, so I can look into it myself?

Freeper panic: [Link: webcache.googleusercontent.com...]

128

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:35:24am

re: #124 GapDude

I do not, but I guess the liberals do, which is why they keep trying to destroy our domestic industries with more and more laws and regulations

Yeah lord knows there's nothing in the US that needs COUGH ENRON COUGH BP, COUGH WALLSTREET COUGH more regulation to prevent the American people as a whole from suffering due to a few people's actions....

129

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:35:25am

re: #122 GapDude

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...] Google was invented some time ago. Google is your friend. I Cannot help it if you are too lazy to do your own research

I can't help it if you're too stupid to think analytically, either. Sorry 'bout that.

130

GapDude Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:36:02am

re: #123 jamesfirecat

Our f***ing military spending won us the cold war and WWII. It protects Europe from Russia so that the Euros can spend up the wazoo and not defend themselves. Dude, you really have a weak grasp on history and realpolitik.

131

JeffFX Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:36:14am

re: #124 GapDude

I do not, but I guess the liberals do, which is why they keep trying to destroy our domestic industries with more and more laws and regulations

Your enemies are imaginary. These Liberals you complain about want America to be great too, they just don't want to destroy the health of Americans in the process.

132

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:37:23am

re: #130 GapDude

Our f***ing military spending won us the cold war and WWII. It protects Europe from Russia so that the Euros can spend up the wazoo and not defend themselves. Dude, you really have a weak grasp on history and realpolitik.

I'm talking about today's military spending.

So WW2 and the Cold war have NOTHING TO DO with how much we spend today.

Unless you're going to argue that time traveling nazis/communists/commienazis are going to attack us any day now.

If Europe is living off our largess on defence spending why the f*** should we pull the rug out from under them to do more "nation building" here at home?

133

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:37:37am

re: #122 GapDude

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...] Google was invented some time ago. Google is your friend. I Cannot help it if you are too lazy to do your own research

Now, lessee:

It is presently inactive, but is projected to reopen in 2011.

Under a liberal enviroloon president, say it ain't so!

I do not see any evidence in that article that it was the 'last' of its kind, nor that it was shut down by 'enviros'.

You do realize that you're not making much of a point here, don't you?

134

Varek Raith Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:37:50am

There's no way in hell that the US, or any freaking country on the freaking planet, can be self sufficient.
No.
Way.

135

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:38:03am

re: #132 jamesfirecat

I'm talking about today's military spending.

So WW2 and the Cold war have NOTHING TO DO with how much we spend today.

Unless you're going to argue that time traveling nazis/communists/commienazis are going to attack us any day now.

If Europe is living off our largess on defence spending why the f*** should we pull the rug out from under them to do more "nation building" here at home?

Meant to say
"Shouldn't we pull the rug..."

That's one of those errors that ruins a pose saddly...

136

GapDude Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:38:33am

re: #128 jamesfirecat

No COUGH COUGH we need more taxes, COUGH COUGH more deficits and spending COUGH COUGH, regulate our domestic industry into oblivion COUGH COUGH. Oh, and COUGH COUGH Goldman Sachs was the second biggest contribution to Barack Obama

[Link: www.opensecrets.org...]

137

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:39:04am

re: #132 jamesfirecat

Unless you're going to argue that time traveling nazis/communists/commienazis are going to attack us any day now.

It could happen, James. And then you'd be glad the US Army was there to defend you.

138

Varek Raith Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:40:00am

re: #136 GapDude

Your point?
John McCain.

Merrill Lynch $373,595
Citigroup Inc $322,051
Morgan Stanley $273,452
Goldman Sachs $230,095
JPMorgan Chase & Co $228,107
US Government $208,379
AT&T Inc $201,438
Wachovia Corp $195,063
UBS AG $192,493
Credit Suisse Group $183,353
PricewaterhouseCoopers $167,900
US Army $167,820
Bank of America $166,026
Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher $159,596
Blank Rome LLP $154,226
Greenberg Traurig LLP $146,437
US Dept of Defense $144,105
FedEx Corp $131,974
Bear Stearns $117,498
Lehman Brothers $114,357

139

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:40:09am

re: #134 Varek Raith

There's no way in hell that the US, or any freaking country on the freaking planet, can be self sufficient.
No.
Way.

Mongolia is self-sufficient in vegetable production!

(This is both true, and an actual government slogan from about ten years back. I have remembered it because it is funny. The reason it is funny is because Mongolians don't eat a whole lot of vegetables.)

140

Charles Johnson Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:40:33am

-90 already. Impressive.

141

Reginald Perrin Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:41:32am

re: #124 GapDude

Hey dude, is that gap the hollow space between your ears?

142

Gus Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:41:37am

re: #140 Charles

-90 already. Impressive.

-100 ;)

143

Varek Raith Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:42:23am

re: #142 Gus 802

Ah, skip it.
I gave up down dinging him.
XD

144

CarleeCork Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:45:05am

re: #92 Varek Raith

So you want the US to be the toxic hellhole that China is?
Awesome.

Haven't you heard? Radiation is good for us.
///

145

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:45:36am

re: #144 CarleeCork

Haven't you heard? Radiation is good for us.
///

Is he strong,
listen bud,
he's got radioactive
blood!

146

HappyWarrior Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:46:12am

re: #145 jamesfirecat

Is he strong,
listen bud,
he's got radioactive
blood!

A nation of superheroes, yay. I wonder if I'll get a superpoewr.

147

Varek Raith Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:46:25am

Talking points have been exhausted???

148

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:46:39am

The process is:

Show up.

Complain about lack of balance.

Use many talking-point terms.

Pick an obsessive focus on some horrible thing liberals did to the country.

Repeat it over and over.

Do not adjust any ideas, express any moderation, or give specifics about anything.

When sore pressed, link to something that has to do with what you are talking about, but does not prove your point.

Grow petulant.

149

JeffFX Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:47:44am

re: #135 jamesfirecat

CommieNazis??? {hides under bed}

150

Gus Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:48:07am

re: #148 SanFranciscoZionist

The process is:

Show up.

Complain about lack of balance.

Use many talking-point terms.

Pick an obsessive focus on some horrible thing liberals did to the country.

Repeat it over and over.

Do not adjust any ideas, express any moderation, or give specifics about anything.

When sore pressed, link to something that has to do with what you are talking about, but does not prove your point.

Grow petulant.

I was waiting for the passive stage.

151

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:50:15am

OK, so, GapDude, please explain the reopening of the California mine. Clearly, the enviroloons control the Dems, and the Dems control Congress and have a sitting president, so how could they even think of reopening a rare-earths mine? What's going on here?

152

GapDude Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:51:40am

re: #145 jamesfirecat

No,but I do not want the US to be a broke, hollowed out, hellhole either.

153

irving Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:52:39am

re: #148 SanFranciscoZionist

The process is:

Show up.

Complain about lack of balance.

Use many talking-point terms.

Pick an obsessive focus on some horrible thing liberals did to the country.

Repeat it over and over.

Do not adjust any ideas, express any moderation, or give specifics about anything.

When sore pressed, link to something that has to do with what you are talking about, but does not prove your point.

Grow petulant.

I think you have to fit in "proclaim your intellectual superiority while using bad grammar and poor word choice" in there somewhere. It seems to be mandatory.

154

GapDude Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:53:20am

re: #151 SanFranciscoZionist

SFZ, my Google challenged friend, after China had us by the shorts and curlies, we had to re-open that mine. Just proves how the enviros can screw us over and why we should not fall for their "oh noes, we are doomed" hysteria

155

Varek Raith Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:54:35am

re: #154 GapDude

The DoD saw no threat to rare earth metals from China over this.
I believe them over you.

156

HappyWarrior Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:54:59am

re: #149 JeffFX

CommieNazis??? {hides under bed}

Haha, they actually had that on an old Simpsons thing in a McBain movie. Brilliant parody since it's like combine everything we hate regardless of ideology in to one. It's like when I heard someone complaining about the Obama administration's many czars that "They had czars in Communist Russa and look where it got them." Even though of course the Romanovs as any student of history knows were anti Communist and even anti Democracy.

157

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:55:06am

re: #154 GapDude

SFZ, my Google challenged friend, after China had us by the shorts and curlies, we had to re-open that mine. Just proves how the enviros can screw us over and why we should not fall for their "oh noes, we are doomed" hysteria

Speaking of "oh noes we are doomed' do you believe in Global Warming and how should we deal with it?

158

Varek Raith Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:56:01am

re: #157 jamesfirecat

Speaking of "oh noes we are doomed' do you believe in Global Warming and how should we deal with it?

Now you're gone and done it.

159

Gus Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:56:04am

Just to show how stupid the rare earths argument is, here's a graph showing that China is meeting its own demand with rare earths:

Image: global3.png

160

Jadespring Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:56:30am

re: #154 GapDude

SFZ, my Google challenged friend, after China had us by the shorts and curlies, we had to re-open that mine. Just proves how the enviros can screw us over and why we should not fall for their "oh noes, we are doomed" hysteria

But all you seem to be peddling is 'oh noes we're doomed hysteria.'

Color me confused.

Okay not really. I get what you're about. It's cracking me up.

161

Varek Raith Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:57:10am

re: #159 Gus 802

Just to show how stupid the rare earths argument is, here's a graph showing that China is meeting its own demand with rare earths:

Image: global3.png

So they really don't export it much, eh?
Shockedzors!

162

b_Snark Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:57:42am

re: #132 jamesfirecat

I'm talking about today's military spending.

So WW2 and the Cold war have NOTHING TO DO with how much we spend today.

Unless you're going to argue that time traveling nazis/communists/commienazis are going to attack us any day now.

If Europe is living off our largess on defence spending why the f*** should we pull the rug out from under them to do more "nation building" here at home?

Money spent during the cold war on defences in Europe was spent not to defend Europe but to defend the US. That the installations helped defend Europe was part of the defence of the US.

Altruism is difficult to find in humans, even more difficult to find in countries.

163

Kronocide Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:58:07am

We are doomed to have so many morans like Gapdude being played by their winger pundits just like my granny got played by Oral Roberts to the tune of thousands in the years before her death. The psychology is similar.

164

Jadespring Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:58:26am

re: #159 Gus 802

Just to show how stupid the rare earths argument is, here's a graph showing that China is meeting its own demand with rare earths:

Image: global3.png

Why are you trying to use facts Gus. Facts just confuse talking points. Facts are no fun in superficial talking point world. :(

165

GapDude Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:59:08am

re: #161 Varek Raith

Exactly, they need it for themselves and they will not sell it to us anymore. Which is why, we should develop our own mines. I am glad to see that we are finally doing so.

166

Varek Raith Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:59:45am

Thank you Gus and juante for blowing this one out of the sky.

167

Irving Sun, Oct 31, 2010 11:59:55am

re: #154 GapDude

SFZ, my Google challenged friend, after China had us by the shorts and curlies, we had to re-open that mine. Just proves how the enviros can screw us over and why we should not fall for their "oh noes, we are doomed" hysteria

...um, you didn't actually scroll down much on that google link, did you?

By the end of the 1990s, Unocal had been hit with a cleanup order and a San Bernardino County district attorney's lawsuit. The company paid more than $1.4 million in fines and settlements. After preparing a cleanup plan and completing an extensive environmental study, Unocal in 2004 won approval of a county permit that allowed the mine to operate for another 30 years. The mine also passed a key county inspection in 2007. The mine, once the world's dominant producer of rare earth elements, was closed in large part due to competition from REEs imported from China, which in 2009 supplied more than 96% of the world's REEs.

They paid the fines, and then proceeded to get a permit to keep mining for another 30 years. They closed because - surprise, surprise! - China was undercutting the market, not because of environmental issues.

So, um, yeah. Reading comprehension FTW!

168

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:00:23pm

re: #162 b_sharp

Money spent during the cold war on defences in Europe was spent not to defend Europe but to defend the US. That the installations helped defend Europe was part of the defence of the US.

Altruism is difficult to find in humans, even more difficult to find in countries.

Okay fair enough, but once again, let me ask, is that funding still necessary/called for in today's situation?

169

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:00:23pm

re: #154 GapDude

SFZ, my Google challenged friend, after China had us by the shorts and curlies, we had to re-open that mine. Just proves how the enviros can screw us over and why we should not fall for their "oh noes, we are doomed" hysteria

You're not sounding any brighter the more you push this.

The doors closed at Molycorp's place under a Republican president, now they're reopening under a Democrat.

Yes, an awareness that we don't want China to control the whole market led to this, also credible testimony from the companies involved that they could run a cleaner operation nearly a decade later. (See, this is called actually talking about the situation.)

And you seem to be the one with an 'oh no, we are doomed' approach. So what exactly is your point, aside from an abiding hate of imaginary people you like to call funny names?

So, are we saved now? We go back to work at Mountain Pass, and freedom is gonna ring?

170

Gus Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:00:28pm

re: #161 Varek Raith

So they really don't export it much, eh?
Shockedzors!

Yep. They're filling their own demand as the industrial center of the world. A bit hard to compete with a nation that pay employees 3,000 USD a year and they don't have to pay $800 in rent per month. It's a matter of supply and demand. The reason Molycorp shut down was also due to financial reasons. Even when it does start up again it's technically impossible for the USA to compete with China in RE because of the standard of living and general costs involved. Same as it ever was, China will use the RE which they can recover more cheaply and with little environmental concern to produce products at a lower price.

171

Varek Raith Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:00:48pm

re: #165 GapDude

Exactly, they need it for themselves and they will not sell it to us anymore. Which is why, we should develop our own mines. I am glad to see that we are finally doing so.

So your whole freakout was over nothing?
The DoD saw a potential threat, and acted on it in a subtle, effective manner.

172

Kronocide Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:01:02pm

re: #164 Jadespring

Why are you trying to use facts Gus. Facts just confuse talking points. Facts are no fun in superficial talking point world. :(

You mean it's about feelings and not facts? That's what liberals do, not wingers, according to Rush.

173

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:01:19pm

re: #165 GapDude

Exactly, they need it for themselves and they will not sell it to us anymore. Which is why, we should develop our own mines. I am glad to see that we are finally doing so.

You really don't know shit about this topic, do you?

174

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:01:27pm

re: #167 Irving

...um, you didn't actually scroll down much on that google link, did you?

They paid the fines, and then proceeded to get a permit to keep mining for another 30 years. They closed because - surprise, surprise! - China was undercutting the market, not because of environmental issues.

So, um, yeah. Reading comprehension FTW!

///So it was doubtlessly the fault of the left leaning Unionists!

175

Obdicut Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:01:41pm

re: #165 GapDude

Exactly, they need it for themselves and they will not sell it to us anymore.

Except that they are, of course.

There was a five-week long embargo.

176

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:02:23pm

re: #171 Varek Raith

So your whole freakout was over nothing?
The DoD saw a potential threat, and acted on it in a subtle, effective manner.

But the enviros! The enviros did something BAAAD.

177

jaunte Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:02:24pm

re: #167 Irving

They closed because - surprise, surprise! - China was undercutting the market, not because of environmental issues.

Tricksy marketses.

178

Jadespring Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:02:51pm

re: #172 BigPapa

You mean it's about feelings and not facts? That's what liberals do, not wingers, according to Rush.

Hmm...well it is a fact that I do have feelings about things.... ;)

179

GapDude Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:02:54pm

re: #160 Jadespring

No, I am peddling realpolitik, that we should not be dependent on a foreign nation for our supplies of critical raw materials.

180

Varek Raith Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:03:11pm

re: #167 Irving

...um, you didn't actually scroll down much on that google link, did you?

They paid the fines, and then proceeded to get a permit to keep mining for another 30 years. They closed because - surprise, surprise! - China was undercutting the market, not because of environmental issues.

So, um, yeah. Reading comprehension FTW!

181

Obdicut Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:03:50pm

re: #179 GapDude

Do you mind at all that the DOD thinks that your stance doesn't make any sense? Or do you have a better grasp of realpolitik than those fancy-pants?

182

Irving Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:04:05pm

re: #177 jaunte

Tricksy marketses.

It always seems to come as a shock to the right that the free market doesn't love America as much as they do. The free market doesn't even like America. Or anyone else, for that matter. It just goes where the money is.

183

jaunte Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:04:09pm

re: #179 GapDude

No, I am peddling realpolitik, that we should not be dependent on a foreign nation for our supplies of critical raw materials.

We have a third of the world's reserves. It's not a problem.

184

Varek Raith Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:04:17pm

re: #179 GapDude

No, I am peddling realpolitik, that we should not be dependent on a foreign nation for our supplies of critical raw materials.

Too bad, we are.
Did you hear about Alaska's oil reserve estimates being cut 90%?

185

Jadespring Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:05:45pm

re: #177 jaunte

Tricksy marketses.

Well maybe the enviroloons have control over the markets and China for that matter and forced them to undercut, like a secrety conspiracy. It's just a know 'fact' that both are eeevil.
So Gappy's argument and freak out could still be plausible.

186

Varek Raith Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:05:48pm

God blessed the USA!
.
.
.
Except in oil.
And rare earth metals.
and...

187

Gus Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:05:49pm

re: #169 SanFranciscoZionist

You're not sounding any brighter the more you push this.

The doors closed at Molycorp's place under a Republican president, now they're reopening under a Democrat.

Yes, an awareness that we don't want China to control the whole market led to this, also credible testimony from the companies involved that they could run a cleaner operation nearly a decade later. (See, this is called actually talking about the situation.)

And you seem to be the one with an 'oh no, we are doomed' approach. So what exactly is your point, aside from an abiding hate of imaginary people you like to call funny names?

So, are we saved now? We go back to work at Mountain Pass, and freedom is gonna ring?

And the demand for REs only started recently. Ironically, the demand for REs is being motivated by for "green technology."

Rare Earths, or “Green Elements,” are critical to enabling and furthering the many green energy technologies, high tech applications and defense systems on which our nation’s economy, security and future depend. We refer to these as “Rare Earth Dependent Technologies” because they cannot be produced without Rare Earth materials.

Also see Molycorp's Smith Says Rare Earth Prices Are Sustainable.

188

Sionainn Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:05:58pm

re: #31 GapDude

No,
America hating left kooks, who want to sell our futures to China and other creditors sure will be

Dude, what is wrong with you? I just got home after flying back from the rally. You're bumming me out with your negativity.

189

GapDude Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:06:00pm

re: #169 SanFranciscoZionist

Umm no,

First you asked for proof of "the last US mine being shut down" which I did. you ignore that and insult my intelligence (standard lib trick). Now, your post proves my point that the enviros loony laws almost got us screwed. Thankfully, sanity prevailed and we are re-opening our mine. Again, proving my point that enviros are dangerous. Thanks!

190

Kronocide Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:06:07pm

Oh noes he didn't drop the 'realpolitik' on us!

191

Gus Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:06:44pm

re: #187 Gus 802

And the demand for REs only started recently. Ironically, the demand for REs is being motivated by for "green technology."

Also see Molycorp's Smith Says Rare Earth Prices Are Sustainable.

www.washingtonpost.com...]>

So in many ways it is the environmentalists that will help Molycorp through their promotion of green technology.

192

jaunte Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:07:11pm

Aiiieeee! Mr. Paul! the Market says we can't raise the drawbridge on our Fortress of Solitude!

193

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:07:24pm

re: #189 GapDude

Dude, never go full retard.

194

GapDude Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:07:29pm

re: #186 Varek Raith

God bless america.. except for America hating enviros and left wing kooks

195

Varek Raith Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:07:46pm

re: #189 GapDude

They closed becuase China was undercutting the free market.
You know, freemarket?
You guy worship that right?
So does China.
XD

196

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:07:51pm

re: #189 GapDude

Umm no,

First you asked for proof of "the last US mine being shut down" which I did. you ignore that and insult my intelligence (standard lib trick). Now, your post proves my point that the enviros loony laws almost got us screwed. Thankfully, sanity prevailed and we are re-opening our mine. Again, proving my point that enviros are dangerous. Thanks!

How do you feel about AGW?

197

Jadespring Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:07:57pm

re: #189 GapDude

Umm no,

First you asked for proof of "the last US mine being shut down" which I did. you ignore that and insult my intelligence (standard lib trick). Now, your post proves my point that the enviros loony laws almost got us screwed. Thankfully, sanity prevailed and we are re-opening our mine. Again, proving my point that enviros are dangerous. Thanks!

Um it's only been proved in your own mind. Not that, that's a bad thing. Your mind is an interesting one.

198

albusteve Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:08:05pm

re: #186 Varek Raith

God blessed the USA!
.
.
.
Except in oil.
And rare earth metals.
and...

chop suey

199

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:08:15pm

re: #194 GapDude

God bless america.. except for America hating enviros and left wing kooks

Yeah blessing those people is Jesus job what with how he was a long haired hippie and all!

200

Gus Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:08:25pm

re: #189 GapDude

A) You don't know what you're talking about and B) you're clueless.

201

Varek Raith Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:08:39pm

re: #198 albusteve

chop suey

Thanks!
I knew I was missing something important!

202

jaunte Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:08:45pm

re: #200 Gus 802

Something almost happened.

203

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:09:23pm

re: #189 GapDude

Umm no,

First you asked for proof of "the last US mine being shut down" which I did. you ignore that and insult my intelligence (standard lib trick). Now, your post proves my point that the enviros loony laws almost got us screwed. Thankfully, sanity prevailed and we are re-opening our mine. Again, proving my point that enviros are dangerous. Thanks!

Your debating skills aren't improving much, but I'm always glad to try to help out when someone is struggling.

Now, what 'eviros loony laws' led to the closing at Mountain Pass? Can you tell me, or are you going to point back to Wiki again?

204

Jadespring Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:09:30pm

re: #179 GapDude

No, I am peddling realpolitik, that we should not be dependent on a foreign nation for our supplies of critical raw materials.

I think my sarcasm got lost in translation....

No need to downding folks.

205

jamesfirecat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:09:59pm

re: #194 GapDude

God bless america.. except for America hating enviros and left wing kooks

Also you claim to be all about realpolitik and not having an agenda yet you have no problem with God blessing the anti-gov militias and right wing kooks....

Interesting....

206

Reginald Perrin Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:10:00pm

re: #194 GapDude

God bless America.. except for America hating trolls

Fixed it for you

207

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:10:08pm

re: #194 GapDude

God bless america.. except for America hating enviros and left wing kooks

Ah, here's the heart of it. You can't disagree with these pretend people without assuming they hate America?

208

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:11:04pm

re: #205 jamesfirecat

Also you claim to be all about realpolitik and not having an agenda yet you have no problem with God blessing the anti-gov militias and right wing kooks...

Interesting...

Which is odd, because he started all concerned with balance, IIRC.

209

HappyWarrior Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:16:27pm

re: #208 SanFranciscoZionist

Which is odd, because he started all concerned with balance, IIRC.

Yeah he assumed my whine baby whine comment was an implication that only conservatives whine. Shit, I get annoyed at liberal whining and I know I will Tuesday night when some will act like the Republican take over of the house is end times.

210

Gus Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:17:49pm

Oh yeah. And it was "lefty liberal" Paul Krugman that raised concerns about REs and China last week:

Rare and Foolish
By PAUL KRUGMAN

Last month a Chinese trawler operating in Japanese-controlled waters collided with two vessels of Japan’s Coast Guard. Japan detained the trawler’s captain; China responded by cutting off Japan’s access to crucial raw materials.

And there was nowhere else to turn: China accounts for 97 percent of the world’s supply of rare earths, minerals that play an essential role in many high-technology products, including military equipment. Sure enough, Japan soon let the captain go.

I don’t know about you, but I find this story deeply disturbing, both for what it says about China and what it says about us. On one side, the affair highlights the fecklessness of U.S. policy makers, who did nothing while an unreliable regime acquired a stranglehold on key materials. On the other side, the incident shows a Chinese government that is dangerously trigger-happy, willing to wage economic warfare on the slightest provocation.

Some background: The rare earths are elements whose unique properties play a crucial role in applications ranging from hybrid motors to fiber optics. Until the mid-1980s the United States dominated production, but then China moved in.

“There is oil in the Middle East; there is rare earth in China,” declared Deng Xiaoping, the architect of China’s economic transformation, in 1992. Indeed, China has about a third of the world’s rare earth deposits. This relative abundance, combined with low extraction and processing costs — reflecting both low wages and weak environmental standards — allowed China’s producers to undercut the U.S. industry.

Continues.

Notice the year of Xiapong's statement, 1992. Where was the Republican controlled House and Senate over this issue during the Gingrich years? What about the 8 years of President Bush? Now, I'm not blaming them but I point this out because we have one dummy trying to blame the left. And it should be important to note that it's been the right wing that has objected to hybrid and green technology in favor of oil and petroleum. The very policies of the right has been detrimental to the expansion of REs over the years.

211

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:21:45pm

re: #210 Gus 802

Oh yeah. And it was "lefty liberal" Paul Krugman that raised concerns about REs and China last week:

Rare and Foolish
By PAUL KRUGMAN

Notice the year of Xiapong's statement, 1992. Where was the Republican controlled House and Senate over this issue during the Gingrich years? What about the 8 years of President Bush? Now, I'm not blaming them but I point this out because we have one dummy trying to blame the left. And it should be important to note that it's been the right wing that has objected to hybrid and green technology in favor of oil and petroleum. The very policies of the right has been detrimental to the expansion of REs over the years.

Energy policy is complicated as hell. I usually leave it at that.

Now, from what I'm reading, Mountain Pass does not seem to be the 'last' REE mine in the States, so much as the only major one we ever had, although apparently other mining operations are now in a start-up phase, since the stuff is getting more and more profitable of late.

Oddly, the loony lefty drooling enviros don't seem to be shutting these upstanding miners down yet. I suppose it is only a matter of time.

212

Varek Raith Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:24:06pm

re: #211 SanFranciscoZionist

Energy policy is complicated as hell. I usually leave it at that.

Now, from what I'm reading, Mountain Pass does not seem to be the 'last' REE mine in the States, so much as the only major one we ever had, although apparently other mining operations are now in a start-up phase, since the stuff is getting more and more profitable of late.

Oddly, the loony lefty drooling enviros don't seem to be shutting these upstanding miners down yet. I suppose it is only a matter of time.

That's because REs are extensively used in green tech.
Ironic, no?

213

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:25:19pm

re: #212 Varek Raith

That's because REs are extensively used in green tech.
Ironic, no?

Varek, you'll make my head explode. How is that possible, when I have it on good authority that the Mountain Pass mine was shut down because of enviro laws?

214

Gus Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:27:28pm

re: #212 Varek Raith

re: #213 SanFranciscoZionist

Therein lies the irony. It will be AGW, environmental policy, energy policy, etc., that will prove to be a boon for domestic RE production.

215

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 31, 2010 12:28:58pm

re: #214 Gus 802

re: #213 SanFranciscoZionist

Therein lies the irony. It will be AGW, environmental policy, energy policy, etc., that will prove to be a boon for domestic RE production.

No. No. No. No. Can't be. Eviroloons hate America. They do! They totally do! All their laws are meant to mess up America. Evironmental policy never does anything for the economy! Cause enviros are all wacky and stupid, and they hate America!

216

b_Snark Sun, Oct 31, 2010 2:34:51pm

Looks like the lizards trapped, skinned, hung, dried, diced and stewed another tasteless troll.

Well done.

217

deranged cat Sun, Oct 31, 2010 4:02:00pm

man, i wish i could stick around to watch more of the troll'y fun, but i gotta get to a bar to watch the giants game! sigh, and the troll looked so entertaining..

218

Bentis Fughazi Sun, Oct 31, 2010 4:20:21pm

re: #25 SanFranciscoZionist

It'll still be the Tea Party people. Whining through victory.

"Graceless in victory, sullen in defeat."

219

Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Nov 1, 2010 2:44:04am

Occurred to me last night: Beck was one guy with a rally, Stweart and Colbert held combined rallies, so one would have to divide their totals by 2, and deducting for fudging and the denser packing of the Beck participants (the "fudge/packing principle") they come out about the same.

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