DC Metro Announces New Ridership Record for Stewart-Colbert Rally

US News • Views: 19,307

Washington DC’s Metropolitan Area Transit Authority has announced that they set a new record for the highest Saturday Metrorail ridership last weekend, due to the Jon Stewart-Stephen Colbert Rally to Restore Sanity And/Or Fear.

Metro set a new record for highest Saturday Metrorail ridership on Saturday, October 30. Officials estimate 825,437 Metrorail trips were taken, with many people traveling to the National Mall for the “Rally to Restore Sanity and/or Fear.”

In anticipation of the crowds, Metro added extra trains, and additional Metro personnel were on hand to assist customers at the fare gates and with purchasing fare cards. But because of the record setting ridership, Metro experienced unprecedented crowds throughout the day with long lines at many end-of-the-line stations early in the day as customers waited to enter the system.

Average Saturday Metrorail ridership is typically about 350,000. Yesterday’s record ridership surpassed the 1991 Desert Storm rally, which was held on June 8, 1991 and held the top spot for 19 years.

As noted previously at LGF, CBS News commissioned a scientific estimate by airphotoslive.com, based on aerial photographs taken at around 2 pm, using the same methodology they used to calculate the crowd size for Glenn Beck’s 9/12 rally, and came up with the figure of 215,000.

Credit: AirPhotosLive.com

More of the photos used in AirPhotosLive’s analysis are here: Rally for ‘Sanity and/or Fear’ Pictures.

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576 comments

1 freetoken  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:12:51pm

That's becuz all thoze Librulz love the communistic "mass" transit. If they were real Americans they would have driven their cars.

2 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:13:02pm

////But this doesn't mean they had more people than Glenn Beck, Glenn Beck's rally was attended by conservatives who actually own their own cars and aren't afraid to drive them! Unlike those beatnick public transportation loving hippies who went to Stewart's rally!

3 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:13:16pm

I bet they rode the green line, too.

4 prairiefire  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:13:19pm

Riding the subway for Sanity. I've noticed that the wingnuts are not making much noise about "trash left about", or the "moochers" crowd.

5 Jack Fate  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:13:39pm

AirPhotosLive? Isn't that the company that claims to use something called 'science' to estimate crowd size? How dare they not take organizer's estimates at face value.

6 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:15:15pm

re: #2 jamesfirecat

///But this doesn't mean they had more people than Glenn Beck, Glenn Beck's rally was attended by conservatives who actually own their own cars and aren't afraid to drive them! Unlike those beatnick public transportation loving hippies who went to Stewart's rally!

Ever try to park in DC???
Lol.
:)

7 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:15:40pm

I saw quite a few bicycles around the edges too.

Socialism!

8 HappyWarrior  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:16:19pm

It sure as hell felt that way.

9 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:16:26pm

re: #7 wrenchwench

I saw quite a few bicycles around the edges too.

Socialism!

///No, no bicycles aren't socialism, they're a sign of an impending UN takeover!

10 Kragar  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:18:13pm

Well, to be fair, the Beck rally was told to avoid the DC metro(too ethnic), so no wonder their numbers were lower then.

///

11 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:19:21pm

Police in Athens said Monday that an explosive device addressed to French President Nicolas Sarkozy was one of four packages intercepted by Greek authorities in the capital. A female courier was injured when one of the devices exploded.

[Link: www.france24.com...]

12 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:20:03pm

re: #1 freetoken

Heh. I'm a Red Line conservative, I ride it every workday.

Glad we have the rally as a topic again. After reading all this reaction to it all over the map-Blogs, news sites etc... It occurs to me that the rally simply could not have been the smash hit it was unless it was desperately needed, desperately desired by the population. They have about had it with the crazy, the vitriol, the lies. They want it straight. And if they can not have it straight, well they'll happily take it with humor. The opposite of anger.

13 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:21:31pm

re: #6 Varek Raith

Ever try to park in DC???
Lol.
:)

park?? that assumes one has the 19 hours necessary to navigate traffic into the area in the first place/

14 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:21:36pm

re: #12 Rightwingconspirator

Heh. I'm a Red Line conservative, I ride it every workday.

Glad we have the rally as a topic again. After reading all this reaction to it all over the map-Blogs, news sites etc... It occurs to me that the rally simply could not have been the smash hit it was unless it was desperately needed, desperately desired by the population. They have about had it with the crazy, the vitriol, the lies. They want it straight. And if they can not have it straight, well they'll happily take it with humor. The opposite of anger.

One person pointed out that at this point the only reason they can get it straight is with humor.

Everyone else worries too much about raitings and trying to appeal to famous guests to give people a reason to tune in. Jon Stewart doesn't have to worry about those things, and thus it leaves him free to speak truth to power, even if he does it in a funny manner....

15 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:22:53pm

re: #9 jamesfirecat

///No, no bicycles aren't socialism, they're a sign of an impending UN takeover!

Nuance!

16 tradewind  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:23:53pm

re: #12 Rightwingconspirator
Speaking of humor.... this would
be funny, if it didn't make you want to bang your head on the desk at the same time...

17 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:24:43pm

re: #11 Walter L. Newton

Police in Athens said Monday that an explosive device addressed to French President Nicolas Sarkozy was one of four packages intercepted by Greek authorities in the capital. A female courier was injured when one of the devices exploded.

[Link: www.france24.com...]

huh. they're saying greek lefties.

every time i feel sheepish about our extremes, europe rides in to save the day...

18 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:24:51pm

re: #13 Aceofwhat?

park?? that assumes one has the 19 hours necessary to navigate traffic into the area in the first place/

Park is a bad word.
More like, wandering around the city looking to park.

19 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:25:05pm

re: #7 wrenchwench

I saw quite a few bicycles around the edges too.

Socialism!

And all the valves were presta, viva la revoluçión.

20 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:26:12pm

this rally, that rally, all the rallies combined... really small numbers for a country this size, no?

21 HappyWarrior  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:26:12pm

re: #12 Rightwingconspirator

Heh. I'm a Red Line conservative, I ride it every workday.

Glad we have the rally as a topic again. After reading all this reaction to it all over the map-Blogs, news sites etc... It occurs to me that the rally simply could not have been the smash hit it was unless it was desperately needed, desperately desired by the population. They have about had it with the crazy, the vitriol, the lies. They want it straight. And if they can not have it straight, well they'll happily take it with humor. The opposite of anger.

I'm part of the Order of Orange Line Riders :D. Which is funny for me to say given my Irish Catholic heritage. Been using the other lines much more lately though since I've been hanging out in Adams-Morgan more.

22 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:28:21pm

What are they doing riding the Metro? I thought Oprah bussed everybody in.
/

23 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:28:29pm

re: #20 brookly red

this rally, that rally, all the rallies combined... really small numbers for a country this size, no?

Is that the new talking point???
/

:P

24 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:28:40pm

re: #21 HappyWarrior

I'm part of the Order of Orange Line Riders :D. Which is funny for me to say given my Irish Catholic heritage. Been using the other lines much more lately though since I've been hanging out in Adams-Morgan more.

And those who use the Yellow Line ride in fear...

// ;) (former rider)

25 darthstar  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:28:43pm

Yes, but did they count only the REAL Americans?

26 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:29:22pm

re: #23 Varek Raith

Is that the new talking point???
/

:P

Zzzzzzz

27 garhighway  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:29:24pm

re: #22 Slumbering Behemoth

What are they doing riding the Metro? I thought Oprah bussed everybody in.
/

I'm still waiting for my jetpack.

We were promised jetpacks by now.

28 darthstar  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:30:19pm

Political sign of the day.

This sign has been hanging on the side of historic Enrico's restaurant in San Francisco's North Beach area for the last week.
29 HappyWarrior  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:30:53pm

re: #24 oaktree

And those who use the Yellow Line ride in fear...

// ;) (former rider)

Ha, I think I've only been on the yellow line once. I'm mostly on the orange and red really.

30 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:31:49pm

re: #27 garhighway

I'm still waiting for my jetpack.

We were promised jetpacks by now.

may be jet packs are not such a good idea... lots of tall buildings & powerlines & stuff...

31 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:31:58pm

There has been over 10,000 requests for asylum in Canada today...

32 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:33:20pm

re: #31 Walter L. Newton

asylum from what?

33 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:33:22pm

re: #31 Walter L. Newton

There has been over 10,000 requests for asylum in Canada today...

Randy Quaid has a posse?

34 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:33:54pm

re: #16 tradewind

Speaking of humor... this would
be funny, if it didn't make you want to bang your head on the desk at the same time...

[Video]

Yes nothing makes a good political point like a badly animated movie where characters talk like they're robots and you get to literally put words in the mouth of the person you disagree with!

35 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:33:58pm

re: #29 HappyWarrior

Ha, I think I've only been on the yellow line once. I'm mostly on the orange and red really.

I used to live down on Jefferson Davis Hwy within walking distance of the old sole south end of the Yellow Line before they finished the split-off over to Springfield. Depending on work place I had to do a transfer between lines to Orange, or walk a few blocks in D.C.

Working on the Mall was nice, especially for taking walks at lunch.

36 darthstar  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:34:15pm

re: #31 Walter L. Newton

There has been over 10,000 requests for asylum in Canada today...

That's a lot of hosers, eh?

37 Sionainn  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:34:23pm

re: #3 Obdicut

I bet they rode the green line, too.

I took the orange line.

38 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:35:05pm

Screw the Orange Line!
Blue Line FTW!

40 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:35:34pm

re: #36 darthstar

That's a lot of hosers, eh?

If only we could count on the power of the force to stop them...

41 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:35:48pm

re: #27 garhighway

Hah! Considering I really do not see much driving skill for people in a mere two dimensions, I'm really NOT looking to fly near that idiot talking on his cell phone, drinking coffee, and trying to change lanes at the same time.
And don't get me started about train wrecks, those guys do not even have to steer!
///

42 gummitch  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:37:58pm

Speaking (writing?) as a long-term public transit employee, I'm pleased to hear that WMATA did act proactively. I had read elsewhere (a lot of Orange there) that the organizers failed to converse with WMATA in advance and that they had not laid on extra service. In my world, the transit agency pays attention to calendars and knows full well that there will be a huge increase in demand for big events.

And remember that at one of the big Teapot rallies last year, participants had complained that the damn gummint-run transit agency hadn't provided enough of that socialistic rail service for their event.

43 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:38:04pm

re: #33 goddamnedfrank

Randy Quaid has a posse?

Hey we found a dead mouse in our beer, eh. That means you owe us a free case.

44 reine.de.tout  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:38:04pm

re: #27 garhighway

I'm still waiting for my jetpack.

We were promised jetpacks by now.

Segways.

45 Sionainn  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:38:38pm

re: #22 Slumbering Behemoth

What are they doing riding the Metro? I thought Oprah bussed everybody in.
/

The one rude person we encountered the whole entire day was bussed in by the Huffington Post. She had on a little Huffington Post wrist bracelet.

46 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:38:59pm

re: #44 reine.de.tout

Segways.

That so doesn't count!
Where's my jetpack?
Where's my flying car?
/

47 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:39:13pm

re: #45 Sionainn

The one rude person we encountered the whole entire day was bussed in by the Huffington Post. She had on a little Huffington Post wrist bracelet.

did it beep?

48 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:39:21pm

re: #40 jamesfirecat

If only we could count on the power of the force to stop them...

He saw jedi 17 times, eh...

49 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:39:33pm

re: #46 Varek Raith

That so doesn't count!
Where's my jetpack?
Where's my flying car?
/

They have boat cars now at least....

50 HappyWarrior  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:40:30pm

re: #38 Varek Raith

Screw the Orange Line!
Blue Line FTW!

You only go to Arlington, ours goes to Fairfax! Heh the grey line in coming years is going to be kinda neat since it's going to be going to the town where I grew up but it's still a work in process last I heard.

51 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:41:14pm

re: #49 jamesfirecat

They have boat cars now at least...

can the first Burger King sail thru window be far behind?

52 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:42:41pm

re: #51 brookly red

can the first Burger King sail thru window be far behind?

Can't find correct clip, but you know that episode where Homer Bart and the other Not at all Boy Scouts go to a Krusty Burger on a oil derrick?

53 Sionainn  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:42:44pm

re: #47 brookly red

did it beep?

?

54 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:43:24pm

Auto-Tune the News: Sanity Song

55 researchok  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:43:51pm

re: #51 brookly red

can the first Burger King sail thru window be far behind?

Long John Silver's or Red Lobster will probably be first.

56 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:44:13pm

re: #52 jamesfirecat

Can't find correct clip, but you know that episode where Homer Bart and the other Not at all Boy Scouts go to a Krusty Burger on a oil derrick?

well we got find something to do with them (oil rigs) now... maybe ocean view condos?

57 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:45:01pm

re: #55 researchok

Long John Silver's or Red Lobster will probably be first.

a red lobster on an oil rig... how ironic.

58 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:45:06pm

re: #44 reine.de.tout

Segways.

Just stay away from cliffs.
*waving hello*

re: #46 Varek Raith

I'm really glad the new cars do not sound like the jetsons aircar. I read Toyota was adding a sound to the Prius too help keep the blind from stepping in front of it in urban settings. Listen to this. I think UFO reports are going to skyrocket.

59 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:45:17pm

re: #51 brookly red

can the first Burger King sail thru window be far behind?

I was at Orlando/Magic Kindom/Epcot this past Monday and Tuesday... and it was interesting visiting "Tomorrowland." The whole placed looked like a front cover of a 1960 copy of "Galaxy" magazine... of course, back in the 50's, that's was sort of the artists idea of our "future."

It was so science retro.

60 jaunte  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:46:16pm

re: #39 Killgore Trout

Attention: Ojoe
Beck tells establishment Republicans if they don't listen to tea party, GOP will go away like Whigs


Roger Ebert tweet:

Graphic CGI imagery represents how the GOP establishment will absorb naive newcomers from the TeaParty.
[Link: blogs.suntimes.com...]
61 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:47:00pm

re: #59 Walter L. Newton

I was at Orlando/Magic Kindom/Epcot this past Monday and Tuesday... and it was interesting visiting "Tomorrowland." The whole placed looked like a front cover of a 1960 copy of "Galaxy" magazine... of course, back in the 50's, that's was sort of the artists idea of our "future."

It was so science retro.

I still twitch when somebody hums 'it's a small world"...

62 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:47:02pm

re: #60 jaunte

Roger Ebert tweet:

heh

63 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:48:00pm

re: #3 Obdicut

I bet they rode the green line, too.

Probably sang 'Kumbaya' all the way.

64 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:48:07pm

re: #54 Killgore Trout

Auto-Tune the News: Sanity Song


[Video]

I love this.

65 cliffster  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:48:58pm

re: #59 Walter L. Newton

I was at Orlando/Magic Kindom/Epcot this past Monday and Tuesday... and it was interesting visiting "Tomorrowland." The whole placed looked like a front cover of a 1960 copy of "Galaxy" magazine... of course, back in the 50's, that's was sort of the artists idea of our "future."

It was so science retro.

Here it is, 2010.. we're in book two and still no manned trips to Saturn, and we seem to be giant black-spying-monolith free.

66 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:49:09pm

re: #11 Walter L. Newton

Police in Athens said Monday that an explosive device addressed to French President Nicolas Sarkozy was one of four packages intercepted by Greek authorities in the capital. A female courier was injured when one of the devices exploded.

[Link: www.france24.com...]

Oh, God Damn It.

67 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:49:46pm

re: #61 brookly red

I still twitch when somebody hums 'it's a small world"...

I didn't have to listen to anyone hum it... I had to listen to the little wooden headed imps sing it... my girlfriend wanted to ride it just to annoy me... I rode it at the 64 Worlds Fair in Flushing Meadows... I thought that was going to be the last time I had to see that attraction.

There was NO line for the ride.

68 prairiefire  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:50:59pm

re: #45 Sionainn

The one rude person we encountered the whole entire day was bussed in by the Huffington Post. She had on a little Huffington Post wrist bracelet.

Figures.

69 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:51:17pm

re: #58 Rightwingconspirator

Just stay away from cliffs.
*waving hello*

re: #46 Varek Raith

I'm really glad the new cars do not sound like the jetsons aircar. I read Toyota was adding a sound to the Prius too help keep the blind from stepping in front of it in urban settings. Listen to this. I think UFO reports are going to skyrocket.

Oh, man, you ain't kidding.
Heh.

70 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:51:48pm

re: #65 cliffster

Here it is, 2010.. we're in book two and still no manned trips to Saturn, and we seem to be giant black-spying-monolith free.

Well... I did go to Mars. Rode Mission:Space at Epcot... in my opinion, one of the most interesting and unique rides I've ever seen.

71 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:52:26pm

re: #67 Walter L. Newton

I didn't have to listen to anyone hum it... I had to listen to the little wooden headed imps sing it... my girlfriend wanted to ride it just to annoy me... I rode it at the 64 Worlds Fair in Flushing Meadows... I thought that was going to be the last time I had to see that attraction.

There was NO line for the ride.

wow... you are either incredibly strong or incredibly whipped.

72 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:53:52pm

Paladino walks out of interview

(CNN) - Carl Paladino, the Republican gubernatorial candidate in New York, cut short a television interview with CNN affiliate WCAX after the reporter repeatedly asked whether recent remarks he made about New York Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand are "sexist.
73 nines09  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:54:07pm

re: #39 Killgore Trout
I do think the air is getting thin in Glenn Becks' Delusional Coast to Coast Wild Card Line Tent Show and Water Park.
Goody.

74 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:54:42pm

re: #71 brookly red

wow... you are either incredibly strong or incredibly whipped.

She was trying to get back at me for putting her on "Jungle Cruise" and having to put up with the inane "guide" and her horribly-punned dialog. The feigned enthusiasm was like Sarah Palin trying to do stand up comedy... ugh.

75 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:54:52pm

re: #66 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, God Damn It.

nah, just mad greek lefties.

76 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:54:55pm

re: #50 HappyWarrior

I was promised a subway when I was on a bicycle, about eight years old. By the time it was built and running it was just in time for my 40th birthday. (Los Angeles Red Line) But I sure am glad to have it.

77 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:55:07pm

Wow!!1! Ob-Topic. Mr and Mrs Decatur Deb just made it home from the rally. Here's a picture of the young, ennui-driven rally demographic from the Alabama contingent. More to come when we get some sleep.

Image: 5132169528_590b62665e.jpg

'Nite, all.

78 researchok  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:55:26pm

re: #63 SanFranciscoZionist

Probably sang 'Kumbaya' all the way.

That really made me laugh.

Mostly because it isn't that great a stretch.

79 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:55:53pm

re: #74 Walter L. Newton

She was trying to get back at me for putting her on "Jungle Cruise" and having to put up with the inane "guide" and her horribly-punned dialog. The feigned enthusiasm was like Sarah Palin trying to do stand up comedy... ugh.

maybe next time Club Med?

80 blueraven  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:57:14pm

re: #16 tradewind

Speaking of humor... this would
be funny, if it didn't make you want to bang your head on the desk at the same time...

[Video]

Its not funny at all, just stupid, condescending and wrong. Supposedly the guy makes 200K per year but after taxes only 30 dollars an hour? That's a bit over 60K. So he is paying 140K in taxes? Dude needs to fire his accountant.

81 RadicalModerate  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:58:26pm

Sheriff Joe might want to start fitting himself for one of those pink jumpsuits that he is famous for, because it looks like he has been cooking the payroll books.

Maricopa County probes Sheriff Joe Arpaio's employee database

Maricopa County officials believe the discovery of a duplicate payroll log and database hidden in a secure computer system at the Sheriff's Office could reveal the extent of alleged misspending in Sheriff Joe Arpaio's agency.

The sheriff's employee database operated parallel to a county-run system, recording a different set of sheriff's staff assignments and payments than official records provided to county auditors. County officials say the system has existed since the early part of the decade, but they learned of it only recently through paperwork produced in a case alleging racial profiling against the Sheriff's Office.
[...]
County administrators believe the Sheriff's Office intentionally misappropriated as much as $80 million designated for jail operations over five years to pay employees working in patrol, human-smuggling operations and investigative units. Those employees should have been paid with other funds, but county officials suspect the Sheriff's Office tried to maintain staffing levels by using money that legally was inaccessible.

82 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:58:38pm

re: #80 blueraven

Its not funny at all, just stupid, condescending and wrong. Supposedly the guy makes 200K per year but after taxes only 30 dollars an hour? That's a bit over 60K. So he is paying 140K in taxes? Dude needs to fire his accountant.

congressman.

83 cliffster  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:58:49pm

re: #70 Walter L. Newton

Well... I did go to Mars. Rode Mission:Space at Epcot... in my opinion, one of the most interesting and unique rides I've ever seen.

Very cool ride. Still no monoliths though.

84 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:59:23pm

re: #80 blueraven

He did say he's working 80 hours a week. $120K

85 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 3:59:36pm

re: #82 brookly red

congressman.

He ain't being taxed 70 some odd percent. The dude's full of it.

86 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:00:02pm

re: #72 Varek Raith

Paladino walks out of interview

He gets a gold star for not having his security detail arrest anyone though!

87 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:01:04pm

re: #84 Rightwingconspirator

He did say he's working 80 hours a week. $120K

$80,000 in taxes. Not so far out of reality after all.

88 researchok  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:01:52pm

re: #86 jamesfirecat

He gets a gold star for not having his security detail arrest anyone though!

I submit that is his first gold star since kindergarten.

He really is an idiot.

89 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:02:01pm

re: #28 darthstar

Political sign of the day.

Well, I guess we know how the owner at Enrico's is voting.

Good grief, dude, kids walk down that street!

90 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:02:34pm

re: #85 Varek Raith

He ain't being taxed 70 some odd percent. The dude's full of it.

maybe not all in one place... but all these taxes add up especially if you live in a state with sales tax.

91 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:02:56pm

re: #87 Rightwingconspirator

$80,000 in taxes. Not so far out of reality after all.

80k in taxes on 120k of income? not in the US...

92 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:03:19pm

re: #90 brookly red

maybe not all in one place... but all these taxes add up especially if you live in a state with sales tax.

How about we debate the issues he puts forward in the video rather than the person's financial states?

93 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:03:36pm

re: #28 darthstar

I'll presume his food to be as good as his dialog is classy.

94 researchok  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:04:03pm

re: #89 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, I guess we know how the owner at Enrico's is voting.

Good grief, dude, kids walk down that street!

Hmmm... I wonder what those signs in Chinatown say.

95 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:04:11pm

re: #92 jamesfirecat

How about we debate the issues he puts forward in the video rather than the person's financial states?

what is to debate? taxes are too high.

96 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:04:17pm

re: #91 Aceofwhat?

$80k out of $200k if I heard the video right listening once through.

97 Renaissance_Man  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:05:00pm

re: #95 brookly red

what is to debate? taxes are too high.

Not if you think debt is too high.

98 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:05:04pm

re: #96 Rightwingconspirator

$80k out of $200k if I heard the video right listening once through.

oh. my bad.

99 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:05:09pm

re: #95 brookly red

what is to debate? taxes are too high.

They at the lowest they've been in 50 years. When will they be low enough?

100 blueraven  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:05:46pm

re: #82 brookly red

congressman.

The congress is filing his tax return? Anyone making 200K and paying 140K in taxes is in deep trouble. Thats aboutre: #84 Rightwingconspirator

He did say he's working 80 hours a week. $120K

You are right, he did say that. But still, that's 80K in taxes. And as far as I know the tax rate is the same now as it has been for years and will stay that way for those making 200K a year. So this is just stupid.

101 Renaissance_Man  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:05:50pm

re: #99 jamesfirecat

They at the lowest they've been in 50 years. When will they be low enough?

When Democrats are out of office.

102 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:06:16pm

"I_registered_at_LGF_with_a_big_ol'_chip_on_my_shoulder"

New Registration: Obama_Called_Me_An_Enemy

103 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:06:42pm

re: #101 Renaissance_Man

When Democrats are out of office.

ok, that was funny...

104 researchok  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:06:42pm

re: #102 wrenchwench

"I_registered_at_LGF_with_a_big_ol'_chip_on_my_sh oulder"

LOLOL

105 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:07:03pm

re: #102 wrenchwench

"I_registered_at_LGF_with_a_big_ol'_chip_on_my_sh oulder"

Clever they are not.
XD

106 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:07:16pm

re: #96 Rightwingconspirator

$80k out of $200k if I heard the video right listening once through.

Federal income tax on $200k is about $50k. That's with no deductions. Really, does the guy use Turbo tax?

107 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:08:01pm

re: #105 Varek Raith

Clever they are not.
XD

OTOH, it could be tongue-in-cheek...i could dig that...

108 researchok  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:08:11pm

re: #102 wrenchwench

"I_registered_at_LGF_with_a_big_ol'_chip_on_my_sh oulder"

My next nic will be 'Think before you post- don't make me leave a comment'

109 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:08:11pm

re: #92 jamesfirecat

I like dealing with the small biz scenario. I feel separating the entrepreneurial "rich" from the Wall street derivative guy is an important part of the debate. You have to look at what they do with the money.

I have a bias-I work for a small biz. And I have been here long enough I work with all the numbers.

110 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:08:13pm

re: #101 Renaissance_Man

When Democrats are out of office.

if only it were that simple... no, we have nothing but higher taxes to look forward to till we spend less. On the bright side I didn't work in a year so I have no taxes to pay.

111 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:08:19pm

re: #107 Aceofwhat?

OTOH, it could be tongue-in-cheek...i could dig that...

True dat.

112 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:08:21pm

re: #107 Aceofwhat?

OTOH, it could be tongue-in-cheek...i could dig that...

Poe's law lives eternal....

113 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:08:26pm

re: #95 brookly red

what is to debate? taxes are too high.

Debatable.

114 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:09:02pm

re: #102 wrenchwench

"I_registered_at_LGF_with_a_big_ol'_chip_on_my_sh oulder"

Hi, Moron Friend!

115 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:09:11pm

re: #113 SanFranciscoZionist

Sales taxes are too high. And highly regressive.

116 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:09:30pm

Taxes are always to high for some conservatives.
Always.

117 researchok  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:09:47pm

re: #115 Rightwingconspirator

Sales taxes are too high. And highly regressive.

And I'm for a flat consumption tax.

118 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:10:06pm

re: #115 Rightwingconspirator

Sales taxes are too high. And highly regressive.

Well, yeah.
Especially in California and Texas.
:/

119 Renaissance_Man  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:10:07pm

re: #116 Varek Raith

Taxes are always to high for some conservatives.
Always.

Unless their talking points say otherwise.

120 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:10:13pm

re: #113 SanFranciscoZionist

Debatable.

anyone who wants to pay more is free to do so...

121 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:11:12pm

re: #120 brookly red

anyone who wants to pay more is free to do so...

What will you cut to balance the budget?

122 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:11:19pm

re: #118 Varek Raith

Well, yeah.
Especially in California and Texas.
:/

no state income tax in TX, though, right? am i remembering that correctly?

(yes, i could google...but that would require effort...)

123 researchok  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:11:35pm

I like the flat consumption tax.

The more you spend, the more you pay- no exceptions for boat builders, plane manufacturers, other luxury good manufacturers, etc.

124 RadicalModerate  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:11:47pm

Using the withholding tax calculator at the IRS website, it has the highest possible total withholding for 200K (this is with no dependents, and no tax credits or deductions whatsoever) at $48,031.

The guy is absolutely full of it.


[Link: www.irs.gov...]

125 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:11:58pm

re: #122 Aceofwhat?

no state income tax in TX, though, right? am i remembering that correctly?

(yes, i could google...but that would require effort...)

Really?
I dunno.
I seem to not be firing on all cylinders.
Wheee!

126 Reginald Perrin  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:12:14pm

re: #95 brookly red

what is to debate? taxes are too high.

Why are you so concerned, you haven't been employed for years?

127 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:12:35pm

re: #106 Jeff In Ohio
Or he is single.

128 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:12:43pm

re: #123 researchok

I like the flat consumption tax.

The more you spend, the more you pay- no exceptions for boat builders, plane manufacturers, other luxury good manufacturers, etc.

yes, but also the less you pay the more you pay as a percentage.

129 Interesting Times  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:12:56pm

re: #116 Varek Raith

Taxes are always to high for some conservatives.
Always.

Not this one:

One Republican brave enough to go public is David Stockman, President Reagan's budget director. He says all the Bush tax cuts should be eliminated - even those on the middle class.

And he says his own Republican Party has gone too far with its anti-tax religion..."it's become in a sense an absolute. Something that can't be questioned, something that's gospel, something that's sort of embedded into the catechism and so scratch the average Republican today and he'll say 'Tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts,'" he explained.

"It's rank demagoguery," he added. "We should call it for what it is. If these people were all put into a room on penalty of death to come up with how much they could cut, they couldn't come up with $50 billion, when the problem is $1.3 trillion. So, to stand before the public and rub raw this anti-tax sentiment, the Republican Party, as much as it pains me to say this, should be ashamed of themselves."

130 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:13:01pm

re: #124 RadicalModerate

so, if the max is 48k and change the dude is still bringing home over 150k a year. Poor, poor bastard he really needs a tax cut.

//

131 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:13:02pm

re: #121 Varek Raith

What will you cut to balance the budget?

i have an answer to that one. Social Security. Retirement age at 70. you can start with me. i volunteer.

132 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:13:13pm

re: #117 researchok

And I'm for a flat consumption tax.

Umm...

I'm not.

I'm really not.

I'm for a much greater death tax.

Say 50% of everything above a million dollars?

133 researchok  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:13:39pm

Vermont, Montana, Oregon, Alaska and Delaware have no state sales taxes.

134 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:13:39pm

re: #120 brookly red

anyone who wants to pay more is free to do so...

Like I always say, we tried just having people leave the money in the free will love offering baskets attached to the mailboxes, but there turned out to be some problems.

135 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:13:49pm

re: #102 wrenchwench

"I_registered_at_LGF_with_a_big_ol'_chip_on_my_sh oulder"

Yeah, I saw that one. Subtle.

136 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:13:53pm

re: #129 publicityStunted

Not this one:

RINO!!1!

137 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:13:57pm

re: #122 Aceofwhat?

no state income tax in TX, though, right? am i remembering that correctly?

(yes, i could google...but that would require effort...)

None in New Hampshire, that I know.

138 RadicalModerate  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:14:06pm

re: #122 Aceofwhat?

no state income tax in TX, though, right? am i remembering that correctly?

(yes, i could google...but that would require effort...)

There is no state nor local income tax in the state of Texas.

Most of Texas' tax base comes from either sales or property taxes.

- Texas resident for nearly 25 yrs, worked in tax software field for over 10.

139 SpaceJesus  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:14:12pm
140 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:14:19pm

re: #131 Aceofwhat?

i have an answer to that one. Social Security. Retirement age at 70. you can start with me. i volunteer.

You're honest.
I like that.

141 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:14:35pm

re: #127 Rightwingconspirator

Or he is single.

That is for a single person who has no deductions.

142 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:14:52pm

re: #121 Varek Raith

What will you cut to balance the budget?

I don't know maybe New Jersey to start...

143 researchok  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:15:00pm

re: #132 jamesfirecat

Umm...

I'm not.

I'm really not.

I'm for a much greater death tax.

Say 50% of everything above a million dollars?

No...I disagree.

A lot of that wealth is in the form of businesses. Take away their working capital (yes, real cash) and then what?

144 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:15:33pm

re: #128 wozzablog

yes, but also the less you get payed the more you pay as a percentage.

PIMF

145 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:15:36pm

re: #132 jamesfirecat

Umm...

I'm not.

I'm really not.

I'm for a much greater death tax.

Say 50% of everything above a million dollars?

ridiculous. you've already taxed that money. punishing people who save - and people say that conservatives are ruthless? good Lord.

146 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:15:41pm

re: #143 researchok

No...I disagree.

A lot of that wealth is in the form of businesses. Take away their working capital (yes, real cash) and then what?

Okay then, make an exception for assets that are invested in businesses.

Would you be willing to meat me half way then?

147 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:15:58pm

re: #134 SanFranciscoZionist

Like I always say, we tried just having people leave the money in the free will love offering baskets attached to the mailboxes, but there turned out to be some problems.

lol

148 MinisterO  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:16:11pm

Yeesh, this taxes too high nonsense drives me nuts. Most people haven't the faintest idea of what they really pay in taxes. It's not much.

149 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:16:14pm

re: #102 wrenchwench

Obama_Called_Me_An_Enemy

He's in the previous thread, probably working on a comment right now.

150 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:16:20pm

re: #145 Aceofwhat?

ridiculous. you've already taxed that money. punishing people who save - and people say that conservatives are ruthless? good Lord.

I'm not punishing people who save.

I'm "Punishing' the children of people who become extremely rich and yet have done nothing to earn that money themselves.

151 researchok  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:16:26pm

re: #134 SanFranciscoZionist

Like I always say, we tried just having people leave the money in the free will love offering baskets attached to the mailboxes, but there turned out to be some problems.

I'm shocked.
/

152 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:16:27pm

re: #146 jamesfirecat

Okay then, make an exception for assets that are invested in businesses.

Would you be willing to meat me half way then?

there are already large re-epuipment/plant investment tax credits

153 Vambo  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:16:41pm

for tomorrow:

a bit long-winded, but still funny, and with cute cuddly Hello Kitties.

"I'm sorry, that's not true, words have actual meanings."

154 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:16:43pm

re: #124 RadicalModerate

did he say $80,000 Federal or combined with state and sales and estate taxes-?

155 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:16:46pm

re: #140 Varek Raith

You're honest.
I like that.

the 'what are you willing to sacrifice' question is a great one...those who don't have a few answers lined up ought not agitate for tax breaks!

156 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:17:30pm

re: #139 SpaceJesus

Too bad that isn't being played on every station across the country.

157 researchok  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:18:15pm

re: #150 jamesfirecat

I'm not punishing people who save.

I'm "Punishing' the children of people who become extremely rich and yet have done nothing to earn that money themselves.

Why should they be punished- they have committed no wrong?

158 Renaissance_Man  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:18:21pm

re: #150 jamesfirecat

I'm not punishing people who save.

I'm "Punishing' the children of people who become extremely rich and yet have done nothing to earn that money themselves.

In essence, creating no incentive to save. Increased death taxes are unpopular and probably not very effective, in that they would not raise revenues in any meaningful manner.

159 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:18:34pm

re: #156 Dreggas

Too bad that isn't being played on every station across the country.

nation!

you will never be an AM DJ....

160 SpaceJesus  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:18:34pm

re: #156 Dreggas

It's making the rounds on facebook in a big way at least...

161 rwdflynavy  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:18:35pm

I can personally verify the metro ridership. Met some friends in Dupont Circle for dinner and trying to get out of there on the metro we had to wait for 3 trains just to wedge ourselves on. It was packed.

162 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:18:38pm

re: #155 Aceofwhat?

the 'what are you willing to sacrifice' question is a great one...those who don't have a few answers lined up ought not agitate for tax breaks!

We definitely have to figure something out with regards to SS, Medicare and the DoD.
All are on autopilot, for the most part.
What to do, exactly, I haven't the foggiest idea.

163 Vambo  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:18:44pm

re: #155 Aceofwhat?

the 'what are you willing to sacrifice' question is a great one...those who don't have a few answers lined up ought not agitate for tax breaks!

and it should be a personal sacrifice, specifically... not something like "cut all school funding" when you are over 60, have no children and don't give a fuck about what happens to the next generations.

164 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:19:05pm

re: #146 jamesfirecat

Okay then, make an exception for assets that are invested in businesses.

Would you be willing to meat me half way then?

then everyone will invest their savings in a business before they die.

your idea has two problems:
1. it's taxing a behavior (savings) that we're trying to encourage. that's like grounding your kid for getting an A.
2. it's not very feasible.

165 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:19:08pm

re: #157 researchok

Why should they be punished- they have committed no wrong?

Taxes on un-earned income are hardly a radical concept, and at present only hit those inheriting more than 3mil (if i recall correctly)

166 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:19:17pm

re: #139 SpaceJesus

Was that you posting in the Talk section at Wikipedia? If so, thanks for the well-phrased comments.

167 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:19:36pm

re: #149 Charles

He's in the previous thread, probably working on a comment right now.

I can hardly wait.

*tap tap tpapa tappa tap...*

168 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:19:43pm

re: #157 researchok

Why should they be punished- they have committed no wrong?

Oh yes those poor children who will no be inheriting only half of the assets they were going to get above a million dollars.

What have they done to deserve that money?

If you can't answer the question then how is it punishing them to take it from them?

169 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:20:28pm

re: #158 Renaissance_Man

In essence, creating no incentive to save. Increased death taxes are unpopular and probably not very effective, in that they would not raise revenues in any meaningful manner.

You say "no incentive to save" I say "no incentive to horde"


Tomato- Tomah-to

170 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:20:33pm

re: #155 Aceofwhat?

the 'what are you willing to sacrifice' question is a great one...those who don't have a few answers lined up ought not agitate for tax breaks!

Often, though, it's treated as a ridiculous question. Which strikes me as odd.

171 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:20:34pm

re: #167 wrenchwench

I can hardly wait.

*tap tap tpapa tappa tap...*

Think it'll be a one post wonder???

172 palomino  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:20:37pm

Maybe this is the beginning of a sane version of the tea party. One that isn't on the wrong side of history. Because if there's anything we know about the GOTP it's that they are revanchists who can't accept what the future will look like.

173 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:20:48pm

The suspense is killing me.

174 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:21:11pm

re: #150 jamesfirecat

I'm not punishing people who save.

I'm "Punishing' the children of people who become extremely rich and yet have done nothing to earn that money themselves.

no, i'm pretty sure the folks whose money you plan to take would say that you're punishing them.

and the old adage 'a fool and their money are soon parted' is quite accurate. if the kids are idiots, they won't have money for long.

do you also support re-trying criminals for past crimes even if they've already served their time?

175 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:21:54pm

re: #173 Charles

The suspense is killing me.

Kind feels like a nature documentary.
"We are now observing the lurking aspects of a potential troll."

176 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:22:06pm

re: #164 Aceofwhat?

then everyone will invest their savings in a business before they die.

your idea has two problems:
1. it's taxing a behavior (savings) that we're trying to encourage. that's like grounding your kid for getting an A.
2. it's not very feasible.

The person themselves are not punished for saving money because they don't lose any of it only their children how have done nothing to earn it get less than they would have otherwise.

Also how many people do you think honestly save more than 1 million dollars already?

I'll raise it to 50 mill if you'd like.

177 researchok  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:22:07pm

re: #158 Renaissance_Man

In essence, creating no incentive to save. Increased death taxes are unpopular and probably not very effective, in that they would not raise revenues in any meaningful manner.

They would increase consumption only. Imagine a stock market with no shares left in trust.

For example, I have a friend who collects art. He'll pass that on to his son, who can sell it decades from now at an auction house in Switzerland, using a local lawyer as a proxy.

178 jaunte  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:22:18pm

Trying to write a comment supporting Hoft without using any vowels must be a challenge.

179 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:22:32pm

re: #163 Vambo

and it should be a personal sacrifice, specifically... not something like "cut all school funding" when you are over 60, have no children and don't give a fuck about what happens to the next generations.

exACTly.

180 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:22:36pm

re: #175 Varek Raith

Kind feels like a nature documentary.
"We are now observing the lurking aspects of a potential troll."

Nat Geo!

181 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:22:41pm

re: #168 jamesfirecat

Oh yes those poor children who will no be inheriting only half of the assets they were going to get above a million dollars.

What have they done to deserve that money?

If you can't answer the question then how is it punishing them to take it from them?

it is not what they have done, it is what their parents spent a life time doing for them...

182 SpaceJesus  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:23:05pm

re: #166 Charles

No problem.

Yeah, at first the admins were on the side of the vandals, but after messaging them on my talk page, they saw what was really going on and came down on it.

183 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:23:20pm

re: #178 jaunte

I didn't just lol, I guffawed at that!

184 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:23:22pm

re: #174 Aceofwhat?

no, i'm pretty sure the folks whose money you plan to take would say that you're punishing them.

and the old adage 'a fool and their money are soon parted' is quite accurate. if the kids are idiots, they won't have money for long.

do you also support re-trying criminals for past crimes even if they've already served their time?

But what have those folks done to earn that money?

By what right is it theirs?

That they were lucky enough to be born to a rich family?

185 Reginald Perrin  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:23:23pm

re: #173 Charles

The suspense is killing me.

I think they may be waiting for the impending"attack" scheduled for tomorrow night

186 palomino  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:23:26pm

re: #169 jamesfirecat

You say "no incentive to save" I say "no incentive to horde"

Tomato- Tomah-to

The point of increasing the inheritance tax is not to punish anyone. It's to increase revenue and ostensibly reduce our deficits, something the TP talks about constantly but has no solutions for.

187 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:23:36pm

re: #174 Aceofwhat?

no, i'm pretty sure the folks whose money you plan to take would say that you're punishing them.

and the old adage 'a fool and their money are soon parted' is quite accurate. if the kids are idiots, they won't have money for long.

do you also support re-trying criminals for past crimes even if they've already served their time?

Again - not wanting to make Jame's point for him - but taxes on un-earned income are not anything radical or out of the ordinary in anyway.

Taxation of massive - and at the current rates of estate tax thats what we are talking about - transfers of capital are generally taxable.

188 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:24:07pm

re: #169 jamesfirecat

You say "no incentive to save" I say "no incentive to horde"

Tomato- Tomah-to

good grief

189 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:24:13pm

re: #185 Reginald Perrin

I think they may be waiting for the impending"attack" scheduled for tomorrow night

An advanced scout?
Needs moar camo!
XD

190 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:24:14pm

re: #174 Aceofwhat?

I don't. But I would support putting their children in jail if their parents committed a crime and were never convicted.

(I wouldn't, but that's the analogy your reaching for.)

191 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:24:23pm

re: #121 Varek Raith

What will you cut to balance the budget?

you notice that it's impossible to get a serious answer to this question

generally, federal expenditures exceed income by half again as much; therefore, we'd have to cut about 33% of all expenditures to balance the budget. republican budget cutting suggestions usually total about 2%, if that...

unless and until somebody comes up with some serious budget cut suggestions, all this talk of how 'government spends too much' is just hot air

192 researchok  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:24:36pm

re: #168 jamesfirecat

Oh yes those poor children who will no be inheriting only half of the assets they were going to get above a million dollars.

What have they done to deserve that money?

If you can't answer the question then how is it punishing them to take it from them?

They don't have to do anything to keep that money. Their parents gift that money to them, as is their right.

In any event, there are mechanisms now that beat the death taxes- from trusts to gifting prior to death, etc.

Truth be told, death taxes don't affect the rich, just the Middle Class.

193 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:24:54pm

re: #181 brookly red

it is not what they have done, it is what their parents spent a life time doing for them...

I'll raise that 1 million cap to 50 mill then.

Or are you going to tell me that if good down home honest people work hard enough they can save up more than 50 mill for their kids?

194 Gus  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:25:01pm

re: #1 freetoken

That's becuz all thoze Librulz love the communistic "mass" transit. If they were real Americans they would have driven their cars trucks.

FTFY /

195 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:25:04pm

re: #184 jamesfirecat

But what have those folks done to earn that money?

By what right is it theirs?

That they were lucky enough to be born to a rich family?

class envy...

196 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:25:22pm

re: #185 Reginald Perrin

I think they may be waiting for the impending"attack" scheduled for tomorrow night

Tomorrow? How nice! It's my LGF anniversary!

197 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:25:41pm

re: #176 jamesfirecat

The person themselves are not punished for saving money because they don't lose any of it only their children how have done nothing to earn it get less than they would have otherwise.

Also how many people do you think honestly save more than 1 million dollars already?

I'll raise it to 50 mill if you'd like.

and now you're generating no real revenue. Renaissance Man is correct; it's a loser. sorry.

198 Reginald Perrin  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:26:04pm

re: #189 Varek Raith

An advanced scout?
Needs moar camo!
XD

It's a childish game and the troll is getting his rocks off because he received some attention.

199 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:26:13pm

re: #192 researchok

They don't have to do anything to keep that money. Their parents gift that money to them, as is their right.

In any event, there are mechanisms now that beat the death taxes- from trusts to gifting prior to death, etc.

Truth be told, death taxes don't affect the rich, just the Middle Class.

Then we need to f***ing rewrite the laws so they can't beat them not bitch and moan about it.

200 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:26:18pm

raise the cuttoff amount for social security contributions to over the current $107,000. that would fix all social security funding problems that are predicted to occur in and about the year 2036...

201 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:26:45pm

re: #195 brookly red

class envy...

You say that like it's a bad thing.

If I didn't want to be part of the upper class why would I bother to work?

202 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:26:51pm

re: #192 researchok

They don't have to do anything to keep that money. Their parents gift that money to them, as is their right.

In any event, there are mechanisms now that beat the death taxes- from trusts to gifting prior to death, etc.

Truth be told, death taxes don't affect the rich, just the Middle Class.

From 2011 and beyond the estate tax threshhold is slated to be a $1,000,000 dollars (down from $3,000,000.
Precisely how middle class is middle class?

203 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:27:11pm

re: #190 Jeff In Ohio

I don't. But I would support putting their children in jail if their parents committed a crime and were never convicted.

(I wouldn't, but that's the analogy your reaching for.)

that one works too...i'm still not going to agree that it isn't punishing the original earner when you confiscate their survivors' possessions at the time of their death.

but yeah...i can't think of a parallel where we'd sanction something similar.

204 kirkspencer  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:27:25pm

re: #192 researchok

They don't have to do anything to keep that money. Their parents gift that money to them, as is their right.

In any event, there are mechanisms now that beat the death taxes- from trusts to gifting prior to death, etc.

Truth be told, death taxes don't affect the rich, just the Middle Class.

Your definition of Middle Class is significantly different from mine, given the million dollar minimum for estate taxes to be taken.

205 palomino  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:28:03pm

re: #191 engineer dog

you notice that it's impossible to get a serious answer to this question

generally, federal expenditures exceed income by half again as much; therefore, we'd have to cut about 33% of all expenditures to balance the budget. republican budget cutting suggestions usually total about 2%, if that...

unless and until somebody comes up with some serious budget cut suggestions, all this talk of how 'government spends too much' is just hot air

Here's how a govt run by adults does it. The UK has made significant cuts almost across the board in spending (including military and their version of social security). They've also raised taxes on everyone making over 75k.

That may sound extreme. And it may create stagnation. But it is the only solution if your goal really is reducing deficits.

But you see the gop's goal is to use this issue to win elections, not to actually get it done. Some of the TP may really believe in this rhetoric, but they will quickly be drowned out in Congress by the gop establishment.

206 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:28:06pm

re: #201 jamesfirecat

You say that like it's a bad thing.

If I didn't want to be part of the upper class why would I bother to work?

Why is there any such things as class envy if even middle class familys have upwards of $3,000,000 of stuff to pass on............ whats the point of being upper class?

207 Gus  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:28:10pm

re: #185 Reginald Perrin

I think they may be waiting for the impending"attack" scheduled for tomorrow night

Oh noz! It's teh coming attack of the Martinez-Donato bwain twust! I can haz scared!

//

208 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:28:24pm

re: #166 Charles

Was that you posting in the Talk section at Wikipedia? If so, thanks for the well-phrased comments.

it better be...can we really handle more than one SpaceJesus??

//

209 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:29:06pm

re: #197 Aceofwhat?

and now you're generating no real revenue. Renaissance Man is correct; it's a loser. sorry.

Then at least it will serve as a counter balance to make a clear statement about how America neither wants nor needs families of people who have become so wealthy they don't even need to bother to think about working...

210 freetoken  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:29:14pm

The leading source of populist angst:

Feeble economic growth doesn't matter much

An economy growing 2 percent a year might be tolerable in normal times. Today, it's a near-disaster.

A growth rate of 5 percent or higher is needed to put a major dent in the nation's 9.6 percent unemployment rate. Two reasons why that's unlikely well into next year and maybe beyond:

Construction — both residential and commercial — collapsed last year. And it isn't expected to regain its strength for years. Typically after recessions end, construction booms and powers a new economic expansion.

The recession that began in December 2007, after the housing bubble burst, became the Great Recession once the financial crisis erupted in September 2008. Economic recoveries that follow a financial crisis are typically sluggish. Banks usually take years to resume lending normally.

"To really get 'Morning in America' and get people feeling like jobs are really coming back, I would want to see something close to 5 percent" annual economic growth, says economist Josh Bivens of the Economic Policy Institute, referring to the iconic 1984 Reagan re-election ad.

That isn't likely to happen soon. Macroeconomic Advisers doesn't expect the labor market to recover all the lost jobs until at least 2013. Other economists say it could be 2018 or longer.

The government reported Friday that the nation's gross domestic product, the broadest measure of goods and services produced, grew at an annual rate of 2 percent from July through September. GDP had risen at an annual rate of 1.7 percent in the second quarter.

Economists say it takes GDP growth of 3 percent a year just to keep the unemployment rate from rising as more Americans reach working age and immigrants enter the country. It would take 2 additional percentage points of growth for a year to reduce the unemployment rate by 1 point.

Further evidence of a tepid economy emerged Monday, one day before midterm elections that have pivoted on the nation's financial health. Americans' spending slowed in September, and their incomes fell. Still, manufacturing activity grew by the most in five months. And the weak construction industry showed a little life.

[...]

Though all eyes are on Tuesday's election, it is on Wednesday when the big news will break - on that day the Fed will announce details of the Quantitative Easing II (QEII), the Fed's plan to make sure that inflation stays at least above 2% and doesn't slip any lower.

211 kirkspencer  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:30:12pm

re: #205 palomino

Here's how a govt run by adults does it. The UK has made significant cuts almost across the board in spending (including military and their version of social security). They've also raised taxes on everyone making over 75k.

That may sound extreme. And it may create stagnation. But it is the only solution if your goal really is reducing deficits.

But you see the gop's goal is to use this issue to win elections, not to actually get it done. Some of the TP may really believe in this rhetoric, but they will quickly be drowned out in Congress by the gop establishment.

heh. I once more lobby for my simple tax. 50% on all income after expenses, with a an alternative default for expenses of 150% of the FPL.

212 Reginald Perrin  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:30:28pm

re: #207 Gus 802

Oh noz! It's teh coming attack of the Martinez-Donato bwain twust! I can haz scared!

//

They always fail on an epic scale. It should be hilarious to watch the morons fail once again.

213 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:30:40pm

re: #191 engineer dog

you notice that it's impossible to get a serious answer to this question

generally, federal expenditures exceed income by half again as much; therefore, we'd have to cut about 33% of all expenditures to balance the budget. republican budget cutting suggestions usually total about 2%, if that...

unless and until somebody comes up with some serious budget cut suggestions, all this talk of how 'government spends too much' is just hot air

well we could cut the military, we don't need to have troops in Europe...
we could could cut foreign aid, sorry guys times are hard...
we could entitlements for those who are not supposed to be here in the first place...re: #201 jamesfirecat

214 Bear  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:30:54pm

One way that might indicate to people just how much their income tax is could be to have you go up to the pay window and be given your pay in dollar coins. The pay master would count out your pay in the coins and just before you picked them up the pay master would take back enough of the coins for the required withholding. Perhaps actually seeing your pay be diminished in front of you would drive home just how big a bite the tax was.

215 palomino  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:31:08pm

re: #210 freetoken

The leading source of populist angst:

Feeble economic growth doesn't matter much

Though all eyes are on Tuesday's election, it is on Wednesday when the big news will break - on that day the Fed will announce details of the Quantitative Easing II (QEII), the Fed's plan to make sure that inflation stays at least above 2% and doesn't slip any lower.

Good, now we can start blaming Republicans again as they will soon be in office.

216 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:31:25pm

re: #205 palomino

Don't be so sure. If the TP wet dream comes true tomorrow, they may have enough votes to prevent the debt ceiling from being raised.

217 researchok  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:31:47pm

re: #199 jamesfirecat

Then we need to f***ing rewrite the laws so they can't beat them not bitch and moan about it.

I don't disagree with the idea. I just want to see it done differently.

I believe a consumption tax does two things. Encourages people to save and spend their money wisely (efficient use of capital). A rich guy who wants a plane or a boat or $3000 briefcase or $50,000 diamond for his wife can afford the consumption tax- he just wants to wiggle out of it.

No exceptions for luxury items- zero.

Same could apply to residences. Any home that 100% above the average home cost in that county ought to pay a consumption tax.

The only exemptions ought to be unprocessed food (tax does apply to restaurants), education, healthcare, etc.

218 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:32:05pm

re: #204 kirkspencer

Your definition of Middle Class is significantly different from mine, given the million dollar minimum for estate taxes to be taken.

one can absolutely save a million dollars after a long, frugal middle class life. again: taxing a thing will make people avoid the thing, if possible. death taxes are mean-spirited (we've already taken our cut of their income), wrongheaded (punishing a productive activity - saving and investing money), and ineffective (they contribute infinitesimally to our budget).

sortofa bad combination.

219 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:32:16pm

re: #201 jamesfirecat

You say that like it's a bad thing.

If I didn't want to be part of the upper class why would I bother to work?

yes it is a bad thing... and I hope you get to keep the fruit of you labor.

220 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:32:52pm

re: #213 brookly red

well we could cut the military, we don't need to have troops in Europe...
we could could cut foreign aid, sorry guys times are hard...
we could entitlements for those who are not supposed to be here in the first place...re: #201 jamesfirecat

now go ahead and get some hard figures for those suggestions and tell me by what percent the federal buget would be cut by them

it ain't no good unless you gots hard numbers

221 palomino  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:33:00pm

re: #216 Jeff In Ohio

Don't be so sure. If the TP wet dream comes true tomorrow, they may have enough votes to prevent the debt ceiling from being raised.

That ought to go over well with everyone outside the TP, right?

222 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:33:10pm

re: #214 Bear

One way that might indicate to people just how much their income tax is could be to have you go up to the pay window and be given your pay in dollar coins. The pay master would count out your pay in the coins and just before you picked them up the pay master would take back enough of the coins for the required withholding. Perhaps actually seeing your pay be diminished in front of you would drive home just how big a bite the tax was.

Except that this would require all income to be paid out in liquid capital, causing the demand for it to shoot up to levels that would be impraticale to say the least...

223 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:33:39pm

re: #222 jamesfirecat

Except that this would require all income to be paid out in liquid capital, causing the demand for it to shoot up to levels that would be impraticale to say the least...

GOLD

224 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:33:54pm

re: #217 researchok

How about anything bought at the Dollar Store or Big Lot's?

225 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:33:56pm

re: #209 jamesfirecat

Then at least it will serve as a counter balance to make a clear statement about how America neither wants nor needs families of people who have become so wealthy they don't even need to bother to think about working...

Karl Marx called, wants his schtick back.

Honestly. I can offer no good description of how wrong that statement is because they're all coming out as insults, and i'm not trying to be an ass...

226 kirkspencer  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:34:23pm

re: #214 Bear

One way that might indicate to people just how much their income tax is could be to have you go up to the pay window and be given your pay in dollar coins. The pay master would count out your pay in the coins and just before you picked them up the pay master would take back enough of the coins for the required withholding. Perhaps actually seeing your pay be diminished in front of you would drive home just how big a bite the tax was.

The Remissness of our People in Paying Taxes is highly blameable; the Unwillingness to pay them is still more so. I see, in some Resolutions of Town Meetings, a Remonstrance against giving Congress a Power to take, as they call it, the People’s Money out of their Pockets, tho’ only to pay the Interest and Principal of Debts duly contracted. They seem to mistake the Point. Money, justly due from the People, is their Creditors’ Money, and no longer the Money of the People, who, if they withold it, should be compell’d to pay by some Law.

All Property, indeed, except the Savage’s temporary Cabin, his Bow, his Matchcoat, and other little Acquisitions, absolutely necessary for his Subsistence, seems to me to be the Creature of public Convention. Hence the Public has the Right of Regulating Descents, and all other Conveyances of Property, and even of limiting the Quantity and the Uses of it. All the Property that is necessary to a Man, for the Conservation of the Individual and the Propagation of the Species, is his natural Right, which none can justly deprive him of: But all Property superfluous to such purposes is the Property of the Publick, who, by their Laws, have created it, and who may therefore by other Laws dispose of it, whenever the Welfare of the Publick shall demand such Disposition. He that does not like civil Society on these Terms, let him retire and live among Savages. He can have no right to the benefits of Society, who will not pay his Club towards the Support of it.


(Benjamin Franklin to Robert Morris, December 25, 1783.)

227 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:34:35pm

re: #220 engineer dog

now go ahead and get some hard figures for those suggestions and tell me by what percent the federal buget would be cut by them

it ain't no good unless you gots hard numbers

well you gotta elect me before I can see the books, and somehow I just don't see that happening.

228 freetoken  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:34:50pm

re: #214 Bear

Perhaps actually seeing your pay be diminished in front of you would drive home just how big a bite the tax was.

And of course, the alternative to seeing the deduction at the pay window would be:

To have you pay some coins every time you enter a street;
To have you pay some extra coins every time you buy gas for your car, to pay for the support of the whole fuel infrastructure and national support of those involved in getting you gasoline;
To have you pay some extra coins before you can unlock the door to your home, to pay for the services needed to keep that place safe, serviced, and marketable in the future;
And so on and so on....

229 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:35:29pm

re: #211 kirkspencer

heh. I once more lobby for my simple tax. 50% on all income after expenses, with a an alternative default for expenses of 150% of the FPL.

huh? that'll just encourage more spending. you'll get no money. but i like simple...you had me there...

230 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:35:34pm

re: #214 Bear

One way that might indicate to people just how much their income tax is could be to have you go up to the pay window and be given your pay in dollar coins. The pay master would count out your pay in the coins and just before you picked them up the pay master would take back enough of the coins for the required withholding. Perhaps actually seeing your pay be diminished in front of you would drive home just how big a bite the tax was.

i am perfectly capable of reading the tax lines on my paycheck, as well as reading my tax forms. i am 100% aware of exactly how much i am paying in taxes

and i am also aware of what i get for them in return

231 kirkspencer  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:35:46pm

re: #228 freetoken

And of course, the alternative to seeing the deduction at the pay window would be:

To have you pay some coins every time you enter a street;
To have you pay some extra coins every time you buy gas for your car, to pay for the support of the whole fuel infrastructure and national support of those involved in getting you gasoline;
To have you pay some extra coins before you can unlock the door to your home, to pay for the services needed to keep that place safe, serviced, and marketable in the future;
And so on and so on...

To pay the fire department when it arrives at your house...

232 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:36:09pm

re: #225 Aceofwhat?

Karl Marx called, wants his schtick back.

Honestly. I can offer no good description of how wrong that statement is because they're all coming out as insults, and i'm not trying to be an ass...

Fine then lets forget about it the economy is incredibly complicated and I don't pretend to know it well enough to truly back up my stances with anything beyond gut feelings.

I do respect the fact that you have clear plans for what we should cut, I do it to a tremendous degree as too many just say "10% off the top!"

Anyway can we talk about the stuff I do know now, like Marijuana Leaglization or Abortion instead?

233 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:36:12pm

re: #121 Varek Raith

What will you cut to balance the budget?

The military spending is clearly beyond what is required. Has been. Lots of bases in friendly places.

CIA/NSA/spook & spy org's
How many billions to (not quite) get Osama Bin Hidin?

234 palomino  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:36:13pm

re: #227 brookly red

well you gotta elect me before I can see the books, and somehow I just don't see that happening.

If Sharron Angle can get elected, why can't you?

235 RadicalModerate  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:36:23pm

re: #174 Aceofwhat?

no, i'm pretty sure the folks whose money you plan to take would say that you're punishing them.

and the old adage 'a fool and their money are soon parted' is quite accurate. if the kids are idiots, they won't have money for long.

do you also support re-trying criminals for past crimes even if they've already served their time?

It absolutely astounds me on how many of the anti-tax or "fair(flat)-tax" people have absolutely no understanding of tax law.

236 researchok  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:37:01pm

re: #224 Jeff In Ohio

How about anything bought at the Dollar Store or Big Lot's?

Yes.

A 1 or 1.5% tax on items under $100. A 2-2.5% tax on everything above.

237 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:37:04pm

re: #221 palomino

That ought to go over well with everyone outside the TP, right?

Cutting of the nose to spite the face.

Or doing reconstructive surgery with a baseball bat.

Or telling the rest of the world our dollars and treasury bills are worthless.

The adults won't be happy.

238 jordash1212  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:37:13pm

Puts Glenn Beck to shame.

239 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:37:19pm

re: #234 palomino

If Sharron Angle can get elected, why can't you?

It's mid-terms and he's a registered Democrat..................

240 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:38:13pm

re: #234 palomino

If Sharron Angle can get elected, why can't you?

I'm not running?

241 prairiefire  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:39:03pm

re: #123 researchok

I like the flat consumption tax.

The more you spend, the more you pay- no exceptions for boat builders, plane manufacturers, other luxury good manufacturers, etc.

I would prefer not to pay 23% tax while filling up with gasoline.

242 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:39:17pm

re: #239 wozzablog

It's mid-terms and he's a registered Democrat...

I am thinking of switching my registration to Rent Is Too Damn High...

243 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:39:24pm

re: #239 wozzablog

It's mid-terms and he's a registered Democrat...

[Link: instantrimshot.com...]

244 palomino  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:39:28pm

re: #240 brookly red

I'm not running?

Was being sarcastic. But unless you're a convicted sex offender, you really can't be much worse than Angle and many of the other TB's. Throw your hat in the ring for 2012!

245 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:39:30pm

re: #232 jamesfirecat

Fine then lets forget about it the economy is incredibly complicated and I don't pretend to know it well enough to truly back up my stances with anything beyond gut feelings.

I do respect the fact that you have clear plans for what we should cut, I do it to a tremendous degree as too many just say "10% off the top!"

Anyway can we talk about the stuff I do know now, like Marijuana Leaglization or Abortion instead?

absolutely. Republicans for legalization unite! wait- why is the room so empty//

246 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:39:41pm

re: #227 brookly red

well you gotta elect me before I can see the books, and somehow I just don't see that happening.

here is a nice easy breakdown of the 2010 federal budget

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

you can also find a more detailed breakdown here

[Link: www.gpoaccess.gov...]

now, no more excuses!

247 researchok  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:39:52pm

re: #241 prairiefire

I would prefer not to pay 23% tax while filling up with gasoline.

Separate issue.

248 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:40:10pm

re: #214 Bear

One way that might indicate to people just how much their income tax is could be to have you go up to the pay window and be given your pay in dollar coins. The pay master would count out your pay in the coins and just before you picked them up the pay master would take back enough of the coins for the required withholding. Perhaps actually seeing your pay be diminished in front of you would drive home just how big a bite the tax was.

Yeah? And what if you run your own business for a living?
When i contract out my services and set my cash aside for my estimated quarterlies, do I have to ask that the dude on the other side of the world who's cutting a check to me, that he just fed ex me change instead?

I'm liberal, and I run my own business, I pay my own taxes, out of my own pocket, I see the raw gross of everything I make, every single hour, every single day. No withholding, no nothing. Still liberal! Still think the tax burden is too low, especially for people who are making hundreds and hundreds of times a living wage.


I love these creepy Ron-Paul-esque paranoid anti-government anti-society I got fucking mine so fuck off tax talking points, they're fun for batting practice

249 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:40:42pm

re: #235 RadicalModerate

It absolutely astounds me on how many of the anti-tax or "fair(flat)-tax" people have absolutely no understanding of tax law.

yep. nearly as depressing as the category "potential lawmakers with no understanding of the constitution", right;)

250 researchok  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:41:03pm

re: #241 prairiefire

I would prefer not to pay 23% tax while filling up with gasoline.

Also, I believe people want to know where that 23% goes and if it is acyually funding what it is supposed to be funding.

251 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:41:59pm

Damn!!!
Slow down...
I'm at #178 and speed reading.......
The Election will be over before I catch up and sort
my thoughts to comment!
I've been AWOL!!
Did ANYONE miss me??
/

252 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:42:10pm

re: #244 palomino

Was being sarcastic. But unless you're a convicted sex offender, you really can't be much worse than Angle and many of the other TB's. Throw your hat in the ring for 2012!

be careful what you ask for...

253 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:42:18pm

re: #248 WindUpBird

i think he was quoting ben franklin...but i don't want to get in the middle of it, either...

254 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:42:20pm

re: #245 Aceofwhat?

absolutely. Republicans for legalization unite! wait- why is the room so empty//

You guys can join me in the room for Democrats who... ohh wait f*** sorry I guess I sort of am a bit of a straight line democrat....

No wait... I support Nuclear power!

255 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:42:35pm

re: #117 researchok

And I'm for a flat consumption tax.

Never gonna happen, flat tax in America, never gonna happen

256 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:42:59pm

re: #251 reloadingisnotahobby

Damn!!!
Slow down...
I'm at #178 and speed reading...
The Election will be over before I catch up and sort
my thoughts to comment!
I've been AWOL!!
Did ANYONE miss me??
/

their was a guy from the IRS asking questions...

257 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:43:00pm

re: #248 WindUpBird

Oh c'mon, liberals don't know anything about entrepreneurialism. It's all about taking other peoples money, denying god and fucking the kitchen table with you people. There is no way NO WAY you can understand what yu get for your tax dollar.

258 MinisterO  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:43:45pm

re: #235 RadicalModerate

It absolutely astounds me on how many of the anti-tax or "fair(flat)-tax" people have absolutely no understanding of tax law.

Me too. I have little patience for people who say they're paying too much in federal taxes when their all-in tax rate is about 10%.

Every right-wing alternative tax plan I've ever seen would have the effect of lowering my taxes, and those of people making more than me. I ask, how is that possible? A minister doesn't make much. Increasing taxes on people making less than me isn't going to make up the difference, although I suspect that is the plan.

259 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:43:49pm

re: #254 jamesfirecat

You guys can join me in the room for Democrats who... ohh wait f*** sorry I guess I sort of am a bit of a straight line democrat...

No wait... I support Nuclear power!

there's hope for the two of us yet...

260 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:44:14pm

re: #253 Aceofwhat?

i think he was quoting ben franklin...but i don't want to get in the middle of it, either...

yeah, and it's still stupid and creepy to bring it up as a derp de derp right wing talking point in the year 2010

If it's quoted from ben franklin, great! it's history. It makes no sense now except just as a meme, as anti-tax creepiness for the Forbes I got mine crowd

261 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:44:59pm

re: #257 Jeff In Ohio

Oh c'mon, liberals don't know anything about entrepreneurialism. It's all about taking other peoples money, denying god and fucking the kitchen table with you people. There is no way NO WAY you can understand what yu get for your tax dollar.

Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and George Soros know NOTHING about making money i tell you. The only true entrepreneurs are Conservatives - and while i'm at it isn't it a shame there is no word in the french language for entrepreneur?

262 Grimalkin  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:44:59pm

re: #226 kirkspencer

I always admired Ben Franklin, you've just given me anther reason to continue.

263 palomino  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:45:08pm

re: #252 brookly red

be careful what you ask for...

I'm serious. Your rhetoric is actually far less insane than a lot of people who will be elected to congress tomorrow.

264 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:45:08pm

[Link: www.gpoaccess.gov...]re: #227 brookly red

well you gotta elect me before I can see the books

now, why would anybody who is so sure that they know the answer to our fiscal problem claim to not be aware that the details of the federal budget are not a secret?

i have yet to see any serious budget balancing suggestion from anybody that amount to any serious savings

265 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:45:46pm

re: #256 brookly redDamned Ex Brother inlaw!!

266 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:45:54pm

re: #257 Jeff In Ohio

Oh c'mon, liberals don't know anything about entrepreneurialism. It's all about taking other peoples money, denying god and fucking the kitchen table with you people. There is no way NO WAY you can understand what yu get for your tax dollar.

yeah, that's what they keep telling me as I keep making money in a down economy, and telling the wingnutty side of LGF that they're just flat liars when they spit out the usual garbage in regard to how progressive taxation works

267 kirkspencer  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:46:24pm

re: #229 Aceofwhat?

huh? that'll just encourage more spending. you'll get no money. but i like simple...you had me there...

Oh, it's two-thirds tongue in cheek. For the one-third that's serious, a two part consideration.

First, you are right that it would encourage more spending. That's actually a good thing for most economies. Simplistically, moving money is what makes a healthy economy. Using the analogy of money being the nation's blood carries surprisingly well. Now interestingly, this increased spending would increase revenues at the state and local levels where sales taxes apply.

Second, there are two inflection points in most societies. The lower is where you pretty much have to spend all you earn just to get by. The upper is where you can't spend it all. By taxing only what doesn't get spent - what goes into some sort of saving - you tent to hit only those who can 'afford' to be hit, while at the same time further reducing the problems of Keynes's savings paradox.

It is tongue in cheek because like all ideas a serious examination shows it needs tweaks. There are issues and points of concern. For example, is a retirement fund then taxed?

Still, its essence is simple, and the general effect is beneficial to the nation. So I continue to lobby for it when tax discussions get heavy.

268 researchok  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:46:39pm

re: #255 WindUpBird

Never gonna happen, flat tax in America, never gonna happen

I know.

But I can dream.

269 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:47:22pm

re: #261 wozzablog

Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and George Soros know NOTHING about making money i tell you. The only true entrepreneurs are Conservatives - and while i'm at it isn't it a shame there is no word in the french language for entrepreneur?

I MADE MY MONEY THE OLD FASHIONED WAY

I INHERITED IT

270 reine.de.tout  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:47:40pm

re: #250 researchok

Also, I believe people want to know where that 23% goes and if it is acyually funding what it is supposed to be funding.

OR, RELATED to that - (as happens here), is the state fund created by the state portion of those taxes being raided by the legislature every year to make up deficits elsewhere?

271 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:48:50pm

re: #268 researchok

I know.

But I can dream.

Well, you have fun with that, I actually like the fact that people who are making hundreds of times the living wage and have all the financial advantages due to their connections, they they pay a larger share than single mothers and guys who turn wrenches for a living

But that just makes me a P-P-P-INKO

272 Bear  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:49:44pm

re: #248 WindUpBird

If you are a business person you would be aware of the tax. However I doubt the average working stiff getting a pay check really is aware of how much his gross pay was reduced. Back in the days before withholding one may have been more aware just how much he/she was paying. Of course one of the reasons for withholding was a person might be hard pressed to pay the tax all at one time.

273 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:49:48pm

re: #263 palomino

I'm serious. Your rhetoric is actually far less insane than a lot of people who will be elected to congress tomorrow.

well if you insist, I would run on the anti-corruption ticket: Any person(s) convicted of offering a bribe to any elected official, or any elected official convicted of accepting a bribe will be put to death by firing squad within 15 minutes of conviction. Vote for me.

274 freetoken  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:50:28pm

re: #255 WindUpBird

Never gonna happen, flat tax in America, never gonna happen

"never" is a very long time, but I tend to agree with you that it isn't going to happen, for some very good reasons.

275 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:50:33pm

re: #261 wozzablog

Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and George Soros know NOTHING about making money i tell you. The only true entrepreneurs are Conservatives - and while i'm at it isn't it a shame there is no word in the french language for entrepreneur?

Fucking French. Fuck 'em.

276 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:50:57pm

re: #272 Bear

If you are a business person you would be aware of the tax. However I doubt the average working stiff getting a pay check really is aware of how much his gross pay was reduced. Back in the days before withholding one may have been more aware just how much he/she was paying. Of course one of the reasons for withholding was a person might be hard pressed to pay the tax all at one time.

But do you realize how horribly inefficent it would be for everyone to have to get paid in dollars and coins in this day and age?

277 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:52:05pm

re: #260 WindUpBird

yeah, and it's still stupid and creepy to bring it up as a derp de derp right wing talking point in the year 2010

If it's quoted from ben franklin, great! it's history. It makes no sense now except just as a meme, as anti-tax creepiness for the Forbes I got mine crowd

yeah, it didn't make any sense to me either...

278 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:52:44pm

re: #276 jamesfirecat

But do you realize how horribly inefficent it would be for everyone to have to get paid in dollars and coins in this day and age?

I'll take mine in beer & pizza...

279 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:53:15pm

Glenn Beck on Jon Stewart's Rally

John Stewart sucks and is a partisan hack but we share the same message of peace and rational discourse.

280 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:53:22pm

re: #210 freetoken

Cue all the people who desperately want to make this:

Construction — both residential and commercial — collapsed last year. And it isn't expected to regain its strength for years. Typically after recessions end, construction booms and powers a new economic expansion.

The recession that began in December 2007, after the housing bubble burst, became the Great Recession once the financial crisis erupted in September 2008
. Economic recoveries that follow a financial crisis are typically sluggish. Banks usually take years to resume lending normally.

...Obama's fault.

tons and tons of people here just have no intellectual honesty about the financial crisis, it just sorta slides off them, they just sorta put that little truth off to the side as they wig out about the OMG STIMULUS

281 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:53:22pm

re: #272 Bear

If you are a business person you would be aware of the tax. However I doubt the average working stiff getting a pay check really is aware of how much his gross pay was reduced. Back in the days before withholding one may have been more aware just how much he/she was paying. Of course one of the reasons for withholding was a person might be hard pressed to pay the tax all at one time.

All the places i've worked in the last 30 years detailed where the money went on my pay stub.

282 Grimalkin  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:54:13pm

re: #261 wozzablog

did you forget these? ////
Entrepreneur is French

283 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:54:14pm

re: #280 WindUpBird

Cue all the people who desperately want to make this:

...Obama's fault.

tons and tons of people here just have no intellectual honesty about the financial crisis, it just sorta slides off them, they just sorta put that little truth off to the side as they wig out about the OMG STIMULUS

and TARP - don't forget TARP.

284 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:54:51pm

re: #282 Grimalkin

did you forget these? ///
Entrepreneur is French

sarc tags?........i don't need nooo schtinking sarc tags........


;-)

285 freetoken  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:55:19pm

Bill McBride, perhaps the best maker of graphs on the net, has some good ones today that illustrate our economic condition, that goes along with the earlier posted news item on lowered income:

Real Personal Income

Looking at the past 50 years, the recent recession and aftermath have had a dramatic effect on income, compared to earlier recessions.

And:

Components of Residential Investment as percentage of GDP

We've put so many of our eggs into the housing bubble that its demise has created the steep decline in GDP.

286 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:55:24pm

re: #281 Jeff In Ohio

And then there's the ol W2 form.

[Link: ogsrweb2.ucsd.edu...]

For all you working stiffs who live in a cave.

287 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:56:00pm

re: #282 Grimalkin

did you forget these? ///
Entrepreneur is French

What, are you fucking French?

288 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:56:09pm

re: #272 Bear

If you are a business person you would be aware of the tax. However I doubt the average working stiff getting a pay check really is aware of how much his gross pay was reduced. Back in the days before withholding one may have been more aware just how much he/she was paying. Of course one of the reasons for withholding was a person might be hard pressed to pay the tax all at one time.

Withholding makes society possible. Developed countries withhold taxes. That's how it works. The idea of forcing employers to stop withholding is childish and ridiculous. I love Ben Franklin, but you're quoting ancient history and humor and trying to make it ideology.

289 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:56:13pm

re: #272 Bear

"Who the fuck is FICA, and why is he getting this much of my check?"

290 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:56:18pm

re: #283 wozzablog

and TARP - don't forget TARP.

EVERYBODY PANIC!

291 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:56:27pm

re: #279 Killgore Trout

Glenn Beck on Jon Stewart's Rally


[Video]John Stewart sucks and is a partisan hack but we share the same message of peace and rational discourse.

Wow breaks a leg right out of the gate 17 seconds in he shows that he doesn't get Satire by claiming a "keep fear alive" sign was about depicting him as Hilter.

///That Mustache was in fact about depicting him as J Joana Jameson...

292 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:57:01pm

re: #289 Slumbering Behemoth

"Who the fuck is FICA, and why is he getting this much of my check?"

who is General Error and why is he reading my disc?..........

293 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:57:05pm

re: #267 kirkspencer

Oh, it's two-thirds tongue in cheek. For the one-third that's serious, a two part consideration.

First, you are right that it would encourage more spending. That's actually a good thing for most economies. Simplistically, moving money is what makes a healthy economy. Using the analogy of money being the nation's blood carries surprisingly well. Now interestingly, this increased spending would increase revenues at the state and local levels where sales taxes apply.

Second, there are two inflection points in most societies. The lower is where you pretty much have to spend all you earn just to get by. The upper is where you can't spend it all. By taxing only what doesn't get spent - what goes into some sort of saving - you tent to hit only those who can 'afford' to be hit, while at the same time further reducing the problems of Keynes's savings paradox.

It is tongue in cheek because like all ideas a serious examination shows it needs tweaks. There are issues and points of concern. For example, is a retirement fund then taxed?

Still, its essence is simple, and the general effect is beneficial to the nation. So I continue to lobby for it when tax discussions get heavy.

good stuff. i do get the lower inflection point, but on the higher side, those are folks who can afford to hire someone to buy things and sell things for them. loophole city.

really, i think an indexed AMT is sort of what you're looking for, but therein lies a powerful illustration: the AMT clusterbone that we've witnessed lo these many years is testament to the sheer inability of our elected officials to administer such things correctly...

294 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:58:03pm

re: #290 WindUpBird

EVERYBODY PANIC!

from the presidents email outbox the real reason the rhetoric isn't connecting............

To: Peter Rouse, chief of staff
Subject: Re: Last-ditch strategies

Thanks, Pete. I agree we need to remind people what we've actually achieved these last two years, but I don't think voters really grasp the economics of the Troubled Asset Relief Program, and "TARP funds largely repaid – net final cost to be less than originally expected" isn't much of a slogan. It won't even fit on a goddamn placard. I had this other idea, but then I forgot what it was. Not getting much sleep these days. Barack

295 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:58:19pm

re: #292 wozzablog

who is General Error and why is he reading my disc?...

Press any key?

Where's the damn "any" key?

296 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:58:31pm

re: #272 Bear

If you are a business person you would be aware of the tax. However I doubt the average working stiff getting a pay check really is aware of how much his gross pay was reduced. Back in the days before withholding one may have been more aware just how much he/she was paying. Of course one of the reasons for withholding was a person might be hard pressed to pay the tax all at one time.

really? all those numbers right there on the stub below the check, the ones that say exactly how much was withheld...the average stiff can't read those?

297 Bear  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:58:35pm

re: #276 jamesfirecat

Yes I realize that. It was just an example of something that would make the average Joe/Jane realize how much their pay was reduced.

I can remember going up to the paymaster and being told that my $21.00 a month pay was reduced for certain expenses as dry cleaning, laundry etc.

298 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:59:07pm

re: #291 jamesfirecat

Wow breaks a leg right out of the gate 17 seconds in he shows that he doesn't get Satire by claiming a "keep fear alive" sign was about depicting him as Hilter.

///That Mustache was in fact about depicting him as J Joana Jameson...

Yeah, I don't think he understands that the whole rally was mocking him. That was the whole point and he seems to not understand that.

299 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:59:30pm

re: #297 Bear

Yes I realize that. It was just an example of something that would make the average Joe/Jane realize how much their pay was reduced.

I can remember going up to the paymaster and being told that my $21.00 a month pay was reduced for certain expenses as dry cleaning, laundry etc.

Do you have any practical examples?

300 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:59:36pm

re: #279 Killgore Trout

"And I think people expect me to come out and talk about ... the protesters that, believe it or not, depicted me as Hitler."

I would have went with Goebbels, but whatever.

301 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 4:59:51pm

re: #294 wozzablog

from the presidents email outbox the real reason the rhetoric isn't connecting...

That's comedy.

302 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:00:06pm

re: #293 Aceofwhat?

You used "Elected Officials" and "Administer" in the same sentence....
Tisk..tisk!
You may pay your fine with a credit card............

303 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:00:12pm

re: #287 Jeff In Ohio

What, are you fucking French?

va te faire foutre, fils de put//

304 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:00:34pm

re: #297 Bear

Yes I realize that. It was just an example of something that would make the average Joe/Jane realize how much their pay was reduced.

I can remember going up to the paymaster and being told that my $21.00 a month pay was reduced for certain expenses as dry cleaning, laundry etc.

Also $21 dollars a month?

How old are you?

(As in you must be really old or not from America to ever have been able to make that little money a month...)

305 Bear  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:00:51pm

re: #288 WindUpBird

Do you know when withholding went into effect here?

306 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:01:04pm

I think letting people know how much their health insurance actually cost not only in their contribution but in their employers contribution would be a good start to letting people know what the actual cost of insurance is. It's mostly hidden.

307 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:01:21pm

re: #305 Bear

Do you know when withholding went into effect here?

No, but I bet you'll be only too pleased to tell us!

308 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:01:50pm

re: #306 PT Barnum

I think letting people know how much their health insurance actually cost not only in their contribution but in their employers contribution would be a good start to letting people know what the actual cost of insurance is. It's mostly hidden.

a good company tells their folks...i agree.

309 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:01:59pm

re: #304 jamesfirecat

Also $21 dollars a month?

How old are you?

(As in you must be really old or not from America to ever have been able to make that little money a month...)

James, it's all a matter of perspective. You, sir, are very young.

310 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:02:53pm

re: #305 Bear

Do you know when withholding went into effect here?

Marriage??

311 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:02:55pm

re: #285 freetoken


We've put so many of our eggs into the housing bubble that its demise has created the steep decline in GDP.

Instead of encouraging a society that makes sense and works together, and god help us, lives in something approaching density, we encouraged people to buy homes they couldn't afford, as investment vehicles that weren't remotely stable, using mystifying and bizarre loan structures that weren't easily understood, sold to those people by mortgage brokers who had no interest in their ability to repay, to further isolate themselves in suburbs that are increasingly difficult to maintain, difficult to drive to, and which have water, power and resource requirements that are unsustainable in the long term.

America!

312 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:02:59pm

re: #309 wrenchwench

James, it's all a matter of perspective. You, sir, are very young.

I'm 48 and I don't remember making that little even working part time.

313 Bear  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:03:08pm

re: #299 jamesfirecat

That was in 1944. Infantry Replacement Center, Camp Roberts.

314 Grimalkin  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:03:09pm

re: #287 Jeff In Ohio

What, are you fucking French?

2nd generation American, French-Canadian Grandfather, Father spoke French and English. He said I should learn it, because way back then it was still the language of diplomacy. I also speak and read Japanese, read some Chinese.

315 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:03:53pm

re: #313 Bear

That was in 1944. Infantry Replacement Center, Camp Roberts.

Well that explains it...was that a lot of money back then? How much would that be now, adjusted for inflation?

316 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:04:20pm

re: #306 PT Barnum

I think letting people know how much their health insurance actually cost not only in their contribution but in their employers contribution would be a good start to letting people know what the actual cost of insurance is. It's mostly hidden.

I agree. I don't think most people know what their insurance costs. I'm self employed so I see the bill every month. The cost of my insurance has almost tripled in the 5 years since I've been self employed. It's a major national crisis that most people aren't aware of. I'm all for the reform efforts of the Dems but I worry that it might be too little too late.

317 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:04:41pm

re: #311 WindUpBird

Instead of encouraging a society that makes sense and works together, and god help us, lives in something approaching density, we encouraged people to buy homes they couldn't afford, as investment vehicles that weren't remotely stable, using mystifying and bizarre loan structures that weren't easily understood, sold to those people by mortgage brokers who had no interest in their ability to repay, to further isolate themselves in suburbs that are increasingly difficult to maintain, difficult to drive to, and which have water, power and resource requirements that are unsustainable in the long term.

America!

What a country!

318 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:05:16pm

re: #311 WindUpBird

"The more people, in my judgment, exaggerate a threat of safety and soundness [to Fannie and Freddie], the more people conjure up the possibility of serious financial losses to the Treasury, which I do not see. I think we see entities that are fundamentally sound financially and withstand some of the disastrous scenarios. And even if there were a problem, the Federal Government doesn't bail them out. But the more pressure there is there, then the less I think we see in terms of affordable housing!"

--Barney Frank

319 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:05:17pm
320 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:05:21pm

re: #314 Grimalkin

Smart ass!!/
;-)

321 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:05:48pm

re: #305 Bear

Do you know when withholding went into effect here?

Not off the top of my head, I'm guessing it was before my parents were born.

Are you gonna lay some Cato Institute Ron Paul jive on me now?

322 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:05:54pm

re: #283 wozzablog

and TARP - don't forget TARP.

Image: 340x.jpg

323 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:06:28pm

re: #319 SanFranciscoZionist

... but they don't hate America. No, not at all.

324 freetoken  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:06:33pm

re: #311 WindUpBird

Instead of encouraging a society that makes sense and works together, and god help us, lives in something approaching density, we encouraged people to buy homes they couldn't afford, as investment vehicles that weren't remotely stable, using mystifying and bizarre loan structures that weren't easily understood, sold to those people by mortgage brokers who had no interest in their ability to repay, to further isolate themselves in suburbs that are increasingly difficult to maintain, difficult to drive to, and which have water, power and resource requirements that are unsustainable in the long term.

Nicely written, concise, summary.

325 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:06:41pm
326 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:06:52pm

re: #317 jamesfirecat

What a country!

It's gonna be great when all those mcmansions in water-strapped areas in texas and Arizona are just discarded like empty fast food joints and left to rot

327 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:07:06pm
328 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:07:24pm

re: #327 Aceofwhat?

ye gods...

I TOLD you they were nuts.

329 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:07:50pm

re: #319 SanFranciscoZionist

And, International ANSWER jumps the shark. Here we go...

ANSWER

ANSWER

WHERE'S THE DREAMS THAT I'VE BEEN AFTERRR

330 Gus  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:08:04pm

re: #319 SanFranciscoZionist

And, International ANSWER jumps the shark. Here we go...

Jumps? I always thought it was past tense: jumped.

//

331 MinisterO  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:08:04pm

re: #272 Bear

However I doubt the average working stiff getting a pay check really is aware of how much his gross pay was reduced.

Mr Median gives less than 15% to the federal government, but he probably thinks it's more like 40% due to the incessant bleating of the right-wing.

332 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:08:05pm

re: #328 SanFranciscoZionist

You're certainly being far too kind in that assessment.

333 albusteve  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:08:20pm

re: #326 WindUpBird

It's gonna be great when all those mcmansions in water-strapped areas in texas and Arizona are just discarded like empty fast food joints and left to rot

Hyperion can save the day!....not that they should

334 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:08:49pm

re: #318 Aceofwhat?

from Barney Franks wiki - the sourcing seems to check out before people start hollaring.

In 2009 Frank responded to what he called "wholly inaccurate efforts by Republicans to blame Democrats, and [me] in particular" for the subprime mortgage crisis, which is linked to the financial crisis of 2007–2009.[62] He outlined his efforts to reform these institutions and add regulations, but met resistance from Republicans, with the main exception being a bill with Republican Mike Oxley that died because of opposition from President Bush.[62] The 2005 bill included Frank objectives, which were to impose tighter regulation of Fannie and Freddie and new funds for rental housing. Frank and Mike Oxley achieved broad bipartisan support for the bill in the Financial Services Committee, and it passed the House. But the Senate never voted on the measure, in part because President Bush was likely to veto it.

335 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:08:51pm

re: #316 Killgore Trout

I agree. I don't think most people know what their insurance costs. I'm self employed so I see the bill every month. The cost of my insurance has almost tripled in the 5 years since I've been self employed. It's a major national crisis that most people aren't aware of. I'm all for the reform efforts of the Dems but I worry that it might be too little too late.

The other thing that needs to be made public are common metrics for hospitals.

For example:
Adjusted Avg Cost for Course of Treatment by Diagnosis
Readmission Rate
Infection Rate
Rate of error/procedures performed

Etc.

Also something similar for doctors. Doctors and Hospitals should also be required to publish a partial list of charges for various services based on a list issued by the CDC or HHS.

Part of the problem now is that the actual cost and benefit of medicine is hidden from the consumer to the point that it is not competitive.

336 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:08:53pm

re: #330 Gus 802

Jumps? I always thought it was past tense: jumped.

//

Well, you know, there's always another shark. And International ANSWER always jumps!

337 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:08:56pm

re: #319 SanFranciscoZionist

And, International ANSWER jumps the shark. Here we go...

Including Wesley Clark, who was in Iran 1979 trying to get some US citizens released. All the poor bastard could do was say, "C'mon, you don't want to deal with Reagan, do you?" Now he thinks they're OK?

338 Bear  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:08:59pm

re: #315 PT Barnum

I have no idea about what it would be in today. However in September 1944 working at the railroad shop as an apprentice mechanic I was paid $0.76 an hour for a 10 hour day six days a week.

339 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:09:10pm

re: #272 Bear

If you are a business person you would be aware of the tax. However I doubt the average working stiff getting a pay check really is aware of how much his gross pay was reduced. Back in the days before withholding one may have been more aware just how much he/she was paying. Of course one of the reasons for withholding was a person might be hard pressed to pay the tax all at one time.

I make a bit over minimum wage.
I am fully aware of all that is taken out of my check.

340 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:09:38pm

re: #332 Slumbering Behemoth

You're certainly being far too kind in that assessment.

Well, you know, words like 'nuclear genocide-enabling fuckwads' just get thrown around so much these days.

341 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:11:00pm

re: #338 Bear

I have no idea about what it would be in today. However in September 1944 working at the railroad shop as an apprentice mechanic I was paid $0.76 an hour for a 10 hour day six days a week.

I respect your service to our country in times of war.

Do you have any implentable ideas based off of your years of experience?

342 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:11:02pm

re: #337 wrenchwench

Including Wesley Clark, who was in Iran 1979 trying to get some US citizens released. All the poor bastard could do was say, "C'mon, you don't want to deal with Reagan, do you?" Now he thinks they're OK?

Ramsay Clark.

343 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:11:26pm

re: #340 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, you know, words like 'nuclear genocide-enabling fuckwads' just get thrown around so much these days.

Which is why I employ British insults.

344 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:11:30pm

re: #318 Aceofwhat?

--Barney Frank

My views about the cult home ownership and how it's actually doing (and has done) massive and possibly irreprable infrastructure harm to America are outside the political mainstream, they don't jibe with Democrats or Republicans. Because nobody wants to hear that they can't buy the big shiny thing they really want because it's bad for the country.

345 darthstar  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:11:41pm

Fuck! Just logged into my bank and someone's charged over $600 in iTunes today...and no, it's not me. Fucking Bank of AMerica...I've been on the phone for 20 minutes trying to reach a fucking live fucking human fucking being.

346 Gus  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:11:48pm

re: #340 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, you know, words like 'nuclear genocide-enabling fuckwads' just get thrown around so much these days.

I prefer the one word answer: naive.

347 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:12:04pm

re: #338 Bear

I have no idea about what it would be in today. However in September 1944 working at the railroad shop as an apprentice mechanic I was paid $0.76 an hour for a 10 hour day six days a week.

Rent was how much a month?

348 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:12:12pm

re: #342 SanFranciscoZionist

Ramsay Clark.

Ooops, thank you.

349 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:12:17pm

re: #333 albusteve

Hyperion can save the day!...not that they should

I'm going to be looking forward to the next 50 years when Texas gets real ugly and competitive regarding their dwindling water supplies

350 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:12:54pm

re: #344 WindUpBird

My views about the cult home ownership and how it's actually doing (and has done) massive and possibly irreprable infrastructure harm to America are outside the political mainstream, they don't jibe with Democrats or Republicans. Because nobody wants to hear that they can't buy the big shiny thing they really want because it's bad for the country.

It's done exactly the same in the UK.

Renting was by far the best option for most people - given the insane house prices - yet they just had to have that mortgage tying them down to make them feel better about themselves. And now many of them are ruined.

351 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:12:57pm

re: #347 PT Barnum

Rent was how much a month?

.A bit over 1050 here for a tiny "place"/
Awesome, no?

352 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:13:04pm

re: #343 Varek Raith

Which is why I employ British insults.

wtf... American insults are not good enough for you?

353 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:13:18pm

re: #345 darthstar

Fuck! Just logged into my bank and someone's charged over $600 in iTunes today...and no, it's not me. Fucking Bank of AMerica...I've been on the phone for 20 minutes trying to reach a fucking live fucking human fucking being.

I will never deal with any of the National Banks, although I do have a Capital One Credit Card. Local Banks are much less likely to screw with you.

354 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:13:50pm

re: #346 Gus 802

I prefer the one word answer: naive.

Naive is for college kids who mean really well.

These people are grown, and they've shown a nasty and sophisticated streak when they want to have it.

355 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:14:16pm

re: #351 Varek Raith

.A bit over 1050 here for a tiny "place"/
Awesome, no?

I was talking to Bear....My house payment is less than $500 a month, but I didn't buy all that much house and took out a 20 year loan.

356 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:14:16pm

re: #345 darthstar

That sucks!!
Banking with B of A I mean!
Just kidding!
My bank called me with in 40 minutes of a fraudulent transaction!!
Good luck!

357 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:14:30pm

re: #352 brookly red

wtf... American insults are not good enough for you?

No, you blooming wally!

358 albusteve  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:15:24pm

re: #349 WindUpBird

I'm going to be looking forward to the next 50 years when Texas gets real ugly and competitive regarding their dwindling water supplies

we have our own concerns here in NM, which are dwarfed in comparison to Texas, CA, AZ, NV...imo it's even more serious than the energy crunch that's coming...but people don't see further than their own nose

359 Bear  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:15:26pm

re: #347 PT Barnum

During the War my Grandparents rented apartments in their home for $30.00 a month as I recall. Rent at that time was frozen in Berkeley, California. I do not know if it was a national law or just a local one.

360 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:15:27pm

re: #355 PT Barnum

I was talking to Bear...My house payment is less than $500 a month, but I didn't buy all that much house and took out a 20 year loan.

I know.
It also doesn't help that I live in one of the wealthiest counties in the US.
Ah, well.
I gets by.

361 Gus  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:15:29pm

re: #354 SanFranciscoZionist

Naive is for college kids who mean really well.

These people are grown, and they've shown a nasty and sophisticated streak when they want to have it.

True. Check this out from the appeal:

House of Latin America (HOLA), an Iranian NGO dedicated to solidarity and defense of the peoples of Latin America and the people of Iran, has initiated the following appeal to individuals and organizations worldwide to join with them in a campaign of solidarity with Iran in light of U.S. escalating threats and continuing sanctions.

Then look here:

In mid-October, a nongovernmental organization in Iran called the House of Latin America, or HOLA, invited several anti-imperialist organizations from North America to Tehran with the goal of building the movement against war and sanctions against Iran. Among those who attended were representatives of the International Action Center, ANSWER Coalition, Toronto Coalition Against the War, and the American Iranian Friendship Committee.

HOLA was started about five years ago to promote solidarity with the peoples of Latin America. Its activities have included organizing solidarity trips to Nicaragua and Venezuela, hosting a talk by Daniel Ortega of Nicaragua, translating a book by Hugo Chávez of Venezuela, and facilitating a visit to Iran by the son and daughter of Che Guevara to participate in a commemoration of the 40th anniversary of Che's death.

362 freetoken  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:15:39pm

re: #344 WindUpBird

The very long term answer is pretty clear - we are going to live together, closer, in smaller quarters.

However, getting there with our current culture is surely going to be a bumpy road. The housing bubble wasn't just an explosion of over building too many units, and flipping them mindlessly. What also happened was the super-sizing of the floor-plans, and the concomitant buying of junk to fill all that space.

All of that pretty much accounted for the supposed economic growth post-dotcom-bubble.

363 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:15:42pm

re: #334 wozzablog

from Barney Franks wiki - the sourcing seems to check out before people start hollaring.

here...you're not getting the whole hog.

[Link: politics.usnews.com...]

364 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:15:48pm

re: #350 wozzablog

It's done exactly the same in the UK.

Renting was by far the best option for most people - given the insane house prices - yet they just had to have that mortgage tying them down to make them feel better about themselves. And now many of them are ruined.

I love renting! It's easy on me, keeps me free of being tied down to property, makes my life better. Something breaks, people come fix it. I could see owning a house, a small one, in a close in neighborhood in Portland. but only one...

...THAT I COULD EASILY AFFORD WITH A 30 YEAR FIXED WITH A MASSIVE DOWN PAYMENT. :) Which, I'm not there yet. So I rent!

365 MinisterO  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:15:57pm

re: #357 Varek Raith

No, you blooming wally!

Is wanker still considered too sophisticated for American political discourse?

366 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:16:39pm

re: #344 WindUpBird

My views about the cult home ownership and how it's actually doing (and has done) massive and possibly irreprable infrastructure harm to America are outside the political mainstream, they don't jibe with Democrats or Republicans. Because nobody wants to hear that they can't buy the big shiny thing they really want because it's bad for the country.

i'll drink to that.

367 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:17:02pm

re: #365 MinisterO

Is wanker still considered too sophisticated for American political discourse?

I'm not sure.
Doesn't stop me from using it though!

368 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:17:16pm

re: #363 Aceofwhat?

here...you're not getting the whole hog.

[Link: politics.usnews.com...]

fair enough. there are two or three sides to every story these days. the truth is in the middle of them somewhere.

369 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:17:54pm

re: #362 freetoken

The very long term answer is pretty clear - we are going to live together, closer, in smaller quarters.

Yes!
We call them "Caves"!

370 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:18:34pm

re: #354 SanFranciscoZionist

Naive is for college kids who mean really well.

These people are grown, and they've shown a nasty and sophisticated streak when they want to have it.

seeeriously. past a certain age, aren't we allowed to switch from 'naive' to 'grossly and destructively ignorant'?

371 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:19:04pm

re: #366 Aceofwhat?

i'll drink to that.

I can uncork a Bill Clinton rant about how he was totally part of the deregulation and consolidation of various financial industries, allowing them to essentially become a great big Mothra that nobody could stop, but I think I've said it all before

372 JeffFX  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:19:09pm

re: #319 SanFranciscoZionist

And, International ANSWER jumps the shark. Here we go...

I'm not aware that they were ever any good. I went to one of their anti-war rallies years ago, and quickly realized they were insane.

373 Gus  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:19:11pm

Oh, and there was this too:

Whereas, the hegemonic lobbies that portray Iran as a threat to peace today also lied about imaginary weapons of mass destruction in Iraq to convince the public that war was necessary;

Hegemonic lobbies? Now why does that sound familiar.

374 MinisterO  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:19:26pm

re: #369 reloadingisnotahobby

We call them "Caves"!

You know who else lives in a cave?

375 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:19:45pm

re: #368 wozzablog

fair enough. there are two or three sides to every story these days. the truth is in the middle of them somewhere.

Understanding is a three edged sword.

-Kosh

376 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:19:49pm

re: #368 wozzablog

fair enough. there are two or three sides to every story these days. the truth is in the middle of them somewhere.

indeed. and i wasn't trying to get all partisany...i just like to bring up that 2003 Barney magic on occasion. it really was one of the all-time "things are fine" fails...

377 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:20:00pm

re: #374 MinisterO

You know who else lives in a cave?

Alice Cooper!

378 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:20:12pm

re: #374 MinisterO

You know who else lives in a cave?

I'll bit...who?
Should I duck?

379 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:20:35pm

re: #371 WindUpBird

I can uncork a Bill Clinton rant about how he was totally part of the deregulation and consolidation of various financial industries, allowing them to essentially become a great big Mothra that nobody could stop, but I think I've said it all before

+1 for Mothra

380 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:20:44pm

re: #376 Aceofwhat?

indeed. and i wasn't trying to get all partisany...i just like to bring up that 2003 Barney magic on occasion. it really was one of the all-time "things are fine" fails...

Oh dude, no argument here, he was totally part of the problem

Geitner is part of the problem too!

381 kirkspencer  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:21:47pm

re: #349 WindUpBird

I'm going to be looking forward to the next 50 years when Texas gets real ugly and competitive regarding their dwindling water supplies

It ain't just Texas.

Georgia, Alabama and Florida have been real tense in discussions about the Chattahoochee. Colorado already had one flare about its water problems and the 2009 changes didn't really resolve the issue. And the list goes on into almost every state in the US.

I think water will overtake oil as the Big Issue within the next half-century. That's a guess, of course.

382 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:21:52pm

re: #371 WindUpBird

I can uncork a Bill Clinton rant about how he was totally part of the deregulation and consolidation of various financial industries, allowing them to essentially become a great big Mothra that nobody could stop, but I think I've said it all before

by the way, i am currently drinking Miller High Life Light, with lime. Yeah. I got this.

383 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:22:17pm

In my dream America, the stigma of renting is lowered, and the standard of living in a rental goes way up as people start to realize that maybe community is cooler than a giant yard, and their quality of life isn't actually going up because they have more square footage that it takes them longer to drive to, that costs them a fortune to upkeep

384 MinisterO  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:22:19pm

re: #378 reloadingisnotahobby

I'll bit...who?
Should I duck?

OBL, or so I hear. Sorry there was no point to my comment. Might have been that I was just sayin'.

385 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:23:05pm

re: #361 Gus 802

True. Check this out from the appeal:

Then look here:

These people know what they're doing.

So do the Iranians.

HOLA! Funnily, the acronym only works in English.

386 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:23:18pm

re: #381 kirkspencer

It ain't just Texas.

Georgia, Alabama and Florida have been real tense in discussions about the Chattahoochee. Colorado already had one flare about its water problems and the 2009 changes didn't really resolve the issue. And the list goes on into almost every state in the US.

I think water will overtake oil as the Big Issue within the next half-century. That's a guess, of course.

nah. there are some really cool desalination tech advances underway.

387 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:23:28pm

re: #376 Aceofwhat?

indeed. and i wasn't trying to get all partisany...

Wasn't taken as such.

388 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:23:32pm

re: #357 Varek Raith

No, you blooming wally!

Oh, blooming...

at first you I thought you were comparing me to Bloomberg...

389 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:23:46pm

re: #381 kirkspencer

It ain't just Texas.

Georgia, Alabama and Florida have been real tense in discussions about the Chattahoochee. Colorado already had one flare about its water problems and the 2009 changes didn't really resolve the issue. And the list goes on into almost every state in the US.

I think water will overtake oil as the Big Issue within the next half-century. That's a guess, of course.

I can believe it. We're just not going to be able to spread out like this for much longer.

390 kirkspencer  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:23:54pm

re: #293 Aceofwhat?

good stuff. i do get the lower inflection point, but on the higher side, those are folks who can afford to hire someone to buy things and sell things for them. loophole city.

really, i think an indexed AMT is sort of what you're looking for, but therein lies a powerful illustration: the AMT clusterbone that we've witnessed lo these many years is testament to the sheer inability of our elected officials to administer such things correctly...

As I said above, there are complications that make the "simple" a lie.

391 jaunte  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:24:13pm

re: #279 Killgore Trout

Glenn Beck on Jon Stewart's Rally


[Video]John Stewart sucks and is a partisan hack but we share the same message of peace and rational discourse.

He's pretty funny, tut-tutting over 'political circuses.'

392 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:24:17pm

re: #372 JeffFX

I'm not aware that they were ever any good. I went to one of their anti-war rallies years ago, and quickly realized they were insane.

They were never any good.

This just struck me as a new level of ridiculousness.

393 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:24:33pm

re: #390 kirkspencer

As I said above, there are complications that make the "simple" a lie.

it was enjoyable to read your take, though, so i appreciate that.

394 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:25:15pm

re: #46 Varek Raith

That so doesn't count!
Where's my jetpack?
Where's my flying car?
/

One phrase always pops into my mind when I hear 'flying car': aluminum shower.

395 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:25:27pm

re: #382 Aceofwhat?

by the way, i am currently drinking Miller High Life Light, with lime. Yeah. I got this.

I have these: [Link: www.ninkasibrewing.com...] in my fridge from my party last night, but not till my work is done.

(I drank the SleighR last night though)

396 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:26:06pm

re: #375 Varek Raith

Understanding is a three edged sword.

-Kosh

Obligatory Kosh upding.


The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

Citizen G'Kar:

397 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:26:10pm

re: #391 jaunte

He's pretty funny, tut-tutting over 'political circuses.'

I wonder about him. Does he really not understand that the whole point of the rally was to mock him? He can't really be that obtuse.

398 Gus  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:26:42pm

re: #385 SanFranciscoZionist

These people know what they're doing.

So do the Iranians.

HOLA! Funnily, the acronym only works in English.

They're based in Iran. They call themselves and NGO but clearly they are working in concert with Ahmadinejad, Chavez, etc. They also inspire things like this:

HOLA coordinators Amir Tareshi and Hamid Shahrabi spoke about the challenges to building solidarity with the progressive movement in the U.S. By standing the truth on its head, they said, the U.S. has given the impression that the Iranian government is dedicated to terrorism and corruption. The great desire of, not only the government, but every person, is for peace, he said.

After a powerful revolutionary upsurge led by Islamic forces overthrew the U.S.-installed shah in 1979, the new regime nationalized its oil and, with the use of this revenue, was able to counter the many years of corruption fed primarily by U.S. and British hegemony in Iran. The imperialists stole Iran’s wealth while the puppet shah and his hangers-on siphoned off enough to allow for their luxurious lifestyle. Once freed of imperialist control, Iran was able to dramatically increase health and education nationally using this revenue.

399 kirkspencer  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:26:43pm

re: #386 Aceofwhat?

nah. there are some really cool desalination tech advances underway.

Sure there are. They've been underway for almost half a century now.

It also misses a key point. Desalination is done to seawater. So how do you get the water to Atlanta or Denver?

There's lots of oil in some places, but those places aren't where it's needed. Thus my point that I think water will replace oil as the Big Issue in the next half-century.

400 jaunte  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:27:01pm

re: #397 Killgore Trout

It's probably that he knows his audience will accept his interpretation.

401 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:27:10pm

re: #397 Killgore Trout

I wonder about him. Does he really not understand that the whole point of the rally was to mock him? He can't really be that obtuse.

he's manipulating his audience, who isn't us ;-)

402 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:27:20pm

re: #400 jaunte

It's probably that he knows his audience will accept his interpretation.

JINX

403 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:27:39pm

And the Berkeley Daily Planet, classy as ever.

Take a look at the third one down. What do you see?

404 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:28:01pm

re: #375 Varek Raith

Understanding is a three edged sword.

-Kosh

re: #396 wozzablog

Obligatory Kosh upding.

Adding my own.

It's about time I started watching my B5 DVD collection again.

405 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:28:22pm

re: #395 WindUpBird

I have these: [Link: www.ninkasibrewing.com...] in my fridge from my party last night, but not till my work is done.

(I drank the SleighR last night though)

anyone with the good sense to call their beer 'total domination' has to be doing something right...

406 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:29:00pm

re: #405 Aceofwhat?

anyone with the good sense to call their beer 'total domination' has to be doing something right...

They're good and strong *_*

407 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:29:36pm

re: #405 Aceofwhat?

Also, now they have TWO beers named with classic metal references, the Sleighr and the Maiden the Shade :D

408 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:30:05pm

re: #398 Gus 802

"Once freed of imperialist control, Iran was able to dramatically increase health and education nationally using this revenue."

With more than enough revenue left over to hire "out of country" thugs to murderously squash protests over their recent election.

409 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:32:24pm

re: #403 SanFranciscoZionist

And the Berkeley Daily Planet, classy as ever.

Take a look at the third one down. What do you see?

That site won't load, but I'll give you an upding anyway 'cuz you're awesome!

410 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:34:10pm

re: #404 Romantic Heretic

re: #396 wozzablog

Adding my own.

It's about time I started watching my B5 DVD collection again.

My husband watches the whole series every couple of years. Like people who read the complete works of Tolstoy in a cycle or something.

411 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:34:40pm

re: #409 Slumbering Behemoth

That site won't load, but I'll give you an upding anyway 'cuz you're awesome!

It goes through for me. Anyone else having problems?

412 Ojoe  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:34:54pm

The start of today's Towercam sunset. San Gabriel Mountains of California, Pacific time zone.

It gets chilly right away in those canyons when the sun leaves.

413 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:35:21pm

re: #403 SanFranciscoZionist

And the Berkeley Daily Planet, classy as ever.

Take a look at the third one down. What do you see?

third one down?? how about the last one? yeesh...

414 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:35:36pm

I need to stop reading my e-mail. Michael Lerner has sent me a long, incoherent rant on why he supported Nader ten years ago.

When he supported Nader, I was working for him.

He thinks HE regrets it?

415 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:35:56pm

re: #410 SanFranciscoZionist

My husband watches the whole series every couple of years. Like people who read the complete works of Tolstoy in a cycle or something.

Upding for your husband...............

It is one of the great story arcs. The last season is unfocused pants, but 1-4 + the finale are gold.

416 jaunte  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:35:58pm

re: #403 SanFranciscoZionist

Those are all pretty creepy.

417 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:36:05pm

re: #413 Aceofwhat?

third one down?? how about the last one? yeesh...

Yeah, that's a charmer too.

418 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:36:16pm

re: #400 jaunte

It's probably that he knows his audience will accept his interpretation.

You're probably right. His audience probably wouldn't take it well if he told them that the massive rally was mocking his stupid conspiracy theories.

419 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:36:27pm

re: #411 SanFranciscoZionist

It goes through for me. Anyone else having problems?

I got it - and yeah, not good.

420 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:37:16pm

re: #418 Killgore Trout

You're probably right. His audience probably wouldn't take it well if he told them that the massive rally was mocking his stupid conspiracy theories.

From what I can tell Glenn Beck's audience consists mostly of people who are desperately riffling through the couch cushions to find two fresh double A batteries for the remote.

(Or so I like to dream)

421 Ojoe  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:37:58pm
422 Gus  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:39:54pm

BIAB/W

423 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:40:35pm

re: #411 SanFranciscoZionist

Works now. Off I go.

424 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:40:43pm

re: #419 wozzablog

I got it - and yeah, not good.

One of our local activists has pointed out that Sam Zell does in fact have a big nose.

I 'ardly think that's good enough!

425 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:41:49pm

Beer run!

426 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:42:00pm

5 Reasons Democrats Could Beat the Polls and Hold the House
By NATE SILVER

I like Nate and trust his analysis but I suspect there's some wishful thinking going on. It could be an interesting election night but I'm not expecting any surprises.

427 JeffFX  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:43:18pm

re: #415 wozzablog

Upding for your husband...

It is one of the great story arcs. The last season is unfocused pants, but 1-4 + the finale are gold.

The story-telling suffered due to the realities of making a TV show, since they thought it was going to be canceled at the end of season 4. Season 1 is pretty terrible too with all the horrible acting, but it sets the stage for the wonderful seasons 2-4.

428 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:43:54pm

Why do they keep moving my polling place? I have now been to pretty much every Protestant church within a three-mile radius at least once.

429 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:43:57pm

re: #426 Killgore Trout

5 Reasons Democrats Could Beat the Polls and Hold the House
By NATE SILVER

I like Nate and trust his analysis but I suspect there's some wishful thinking going on. It could be an interesting election night but I'm not expecting any surprises.

Pools tend to be based around people who have land lines phones right?

I wonder if anyone has tried to figure out which way homeless people lean...

(Please no jokes)

430 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:44:24pm

re: #426 Killgore Trout

5 Reasons Democrats Could Beat the Polls and Hold the House
By NATE SILVER

I like Nate and trust his analysis but I suspect there's some wishful thinking going on. It could be an interesting election night but I'm not expecting any surprises.


I could win Power Ball too.

431 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:45:09pm

Carly Fiorina era HP laptops SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

432 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:46:05pm

re: #429 jamesfirecat

Pools tend to be based around people who have land lines phones right?

I wonder if anyone has tried to figure out which way homeless people lean...

(Please no jokes)

no joke but as a rule homeless people don't vote... well at least by themselves.

433 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:46:39pm

re: #428 SanFranciscoZionist

Why do they keep moving my polling place? I have now been to pretty much every Protestant church within a three-mile radius at least once.

it's all about the absentee ballot, mon amie...i voted from my couch.

434 cliffster  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:46:47pm

re: #426 Killgore Trout

5 Reasons Democrats Could Beat the Polls and Hold the House
By NATE SILVER

I like Nate and trust his analysis but I suspect there's some wishful thinking going on. It could be an interesting election night but I'm not expecting any surprises.

[Link: fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com...]

some people just can't commit

435 JeffFX  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:46:53pm

re: #429 jamesfirecat

People who have land-lines, and are so bored or lonely that they don't hang up the moment they realize it's a robo-call.

436 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:48:39pm

re: #435 JeffFX

People who have land-lines, and are so bored or lonely that they don't hang up the moment they realize it's a robo-call.

If I am elected robo callers will be publicly flogged... AND we will pass out free beer & french fries!

437 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:49:44pm

re: #436 brookly red

If I am elected robo callers will be publicly flogged... AND we will pass out free beer & french fries!

free food? that's the registered democrat talking/

438 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:49:54pm

re: #432 brookly red

no joke but as a rule homeless people don't vote... well at least by themselves.

Why don't they vote and what do you mean when you say "by themselves"?

(I have a theory but don't want to put words in your mouth?)

439 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:50:05pm

re: #434 cliffster

[Link: fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com...]

some people just can't commit

I've heard a lot of talk about uncertainty in the polls this time but since most of the polls agree I'm not buying it.

440 JeffFX  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:50:21pm

re: #436 brookly red

You have my vote if they're cheese-fries.

441 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:51:16pm

re: #428 SanFranciscoZionist

Why do they keep moving my polling place? I have now been to pretty much every Protestant church within a three-mile radius at least once.

They're trying to convert you!
/
Mine has been moved from some church to a ballroom at the local Veteran's Memorial District.

442 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:52:16pm

re: #441 Slumbering Behemoth

They're trying to convert you!
/
Mine has been moved from some church to a ballroom at the local Veteran's Memorial District.

Since we've mentioned voting in Churches so much I believe this needs to be mentioned as well...

[Link: www.cracked.com...]

443 Reginald Perrin  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:54:02pm

re: #429 jamesfirecat

I wonder if anyone has tried to figure out which way homeless people lean...

It depends on which way the wind is blowing.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

444 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:54:06pm

re: #438 jamesfirecat

Why don't they vote and what do you mean when you say "by themselves"?

(I have a theory but don't want to put words in your mouth?)

well as rule of thumb if you get to the point of homelessness you are not that socially responsible... but someone may help you to do so. It happens.

445 researchok  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:54:21pm

re: #428 SanFranciscoZionist

Why do they keep moving my polling place? I have now been to pretty much every Protestant church within a three-mile radius at least once.

They do it just to irritate you.

Nader runs the meetings.

/

446 cliffster  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:54:44pm

re: #439 Killgore Trout

I've heard a lot of talk about uncertainty in the polls this time but since most of the polls agree I'm not buying it.

It's a matter of spin. GOP expectations are so high that anything less than triple digit gains in the house and 2/3 of the senate will be a disappointment. Or, anything less than Democrats squeezing through with the majority will be a disappointment. It's gonna be a pretty uneventful evening, GOP will make huge gains but that's already built into the excitement index.

447 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:54:53pm

re: #437 Aceofwhat?

free food? that's the registered democrat talking/

Danm skippy!

448 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:55:09pm

re: #444 brookly red

well as rule of thumb if you get to the point of homelessness you are not that socially responsible... but someone may help you to do so. It happens.

Being homeless has more to do with your economic situation than with how much you care about society if you ask me....

449 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:55:19pm

re: #442 jamesfirecat

Heh, before it was at the church, my polling place was at a pool house in a local apartment complex. I always voted pro-inner tube/pro-floatie there.
/

450 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:55:59pm

re: #446 cliffster

Hot Air is linking to something claiming the GOP will pick up more than 70 house seats. Heh.

451 researchok  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:56:39pm

re: #450 Killgore Trout

Hot Air is linking to something claiming the GOP will pick up more than 70 house seats. Heh.

The other side of the Nate Silver coin.

452 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:57:39pm

re: #442 jamesfirecat

"But a more recent study found that churches -- which are the most common polling locations in America -- can make you turn in a ballot that is more conservative than your actual beliefs. The study found that people casting their ballots in churches were more likely to vote against propositions supporting gay marriage and abortion rights, even if those votes conflicted with their beliefs."

Fortunately, I don't have that problem.

454 prairiefire  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:58:54pm

re: #444 brookly red

well as rule of thumb if you get to the point of homelessness you are not that socially responsible... but someone may help you to do so. It happens.

The homeless still have a right to their vote.

455 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:59:05pm

Is Hoosier Hoops here? Because i've been saying for years that Mike Hart is a human-playstation hybrid...

456 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 5:59:48pm

re: #448 jamesfirecat

Being homeless has more to do with your economic situation than with how much you care about society if you ask me...

no it has more to do with not being able to function within society... look I have sympathy with the homeless, I feel homelessness is worse than cancer, BUT with all the safety nets in place, you gotta think that to get to that point voting is not a high priority.

457 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:00:37pm

re: #453 Killgore Trout

Palin: "At this point in time," you can't be too far right, "more power to the far right"
Hooray for extremism!

i'd chide her for "this point in time", but that's like telling the local wino that he has split ends...

458 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:01:06pm

re: #453 Killgore Trout

Palin: "At this point in time," you can't be too far right, "more power to the far right"
Hooray for extremism!

I'm sure Hess would agree.
ugh, gawd

459 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:01:16pm

re: #456 brookly red

no it has more to do with not being able to function within society... look I have sympathy with the homeless, I feel homelessness is worse than cancer, BUT with all the safety nets in place, you gotta think that to get to that point voting is not a high priority.

Do you have any actual proof to back up this assertion that the homeless don't vote?

460 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:01:21pm

re: #443 Reginald Perrin

Up! The heat blows up!
*waves to all*

461 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:02:58pm

re: #433 Aceofwhat?

it's all about the absentee ballot, mon amie...i voted from my couch.

I always end up not sending those in because I want more time to look at the ballot measures, and then I end up hand-delivering them on the day anyway.

462 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:03:17pm

re: #459 jamesfirecat

Do you have any actual proof to back up this assertion that the homeless don't vote?

wtf are you talking about? they often vote several times... don't get jiggy with me.

463 prairiefire  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:03:57pm

re: #456 brookly red

Jane Says" Jane's Addiction:

Have you seen my wig around?

464 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:04:09pm

re: #448 jamesfirecat

Being homeless has more to do with your economic situation than with how much you care about society if you ask me...

It also has to do with your mental health, I'm sorry to say.
MANY of the homeless, here in LA are Veterans, with mental health and other issues.

465 jaunte  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:04:29pm

re: #453 Killgore Trout

Purity panels!

466 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:04:45pm

re: #403 SanFranciscoZionist

And the Berkeley Daily Planet, classy as ever.

Take a look at the third one down. What do you see?

Gah. Now I have to gouge my eyes out with a rusty box cutter. (some things can't be unseen)

467 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:05:15pm

re: #464 Floral Giraffe

It also has to do with your mental health, I'm sorry to say.
MANY of the homeless, here in LA are Veterans, with mental health and other issues.

Okay I wouldn't be surprised by that.

Still do we have any proof of what Brook said about how "well as rule of thumb if you get to the point of homelessness you are not that socially responsible... but someone may help you to do so. It happens."?

468 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:06:13pm

re: #461 SanFranciscoZionist

I always end up not sending those in because I want more time to look at the ballot measures, and then I end up hand-delivering them on the day anyway.

ours were easy this year. only one or two nutty amendment proposals. i had a lot of judges up for confirmation, though, and it took me a few hours to get familiar with most of them.

also finally pulled the trigger on Alex Sink (D) for governor over Rick Scott. i just can't vote for him. partisanship has its limits.

469 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:06:41pm

re: #444 brookly red

well as rule of thumb if you get to the point of homelessness you are not that socially responsible... but someone may help you to do so. It happens.

What? Wow, this is totally wrong

Homelessness comes primarly from mental illness dude, talk to any social worker

And if our mental health resources in America are staggeringly underfunded (which they are) then people who don't have the mental stability to keep themselves hooked up in society, they wind up homeless


I LITERALLY friends' former clients (they worked in mental health proper, I worked MR/DD with mentially ill MR/DD people) in mental health on the street, panhandling. off their meds, no shelter, no prospects, no nothing.

It has nothing to do with 'social responsibility". Pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, all the usual republican cliches, they don't make any sense, because you can't will away schizophrenia or organic brain disorders with low taxes and conservative ideology

470 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:06:52pm

re: #464 Floral Giraffe

It also has to do with your mental health, I'm sorry to say.
MANY of the homeless, here in LA are Veterans, with mental health and other issues.

upding

471 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:07:00pm

re: #455 Aceofwhat?

Is Hoosier Hoops here? Because i've been saying for years that Mike Hart is a human-playstation hybrid...

GO COLTS!

472 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:07:31pm

re: #467 jamesfirecat

Okay I wouldn't be surprised by that.

Still do we have any proof of what Brook said about how "well as rule of thumb if you get to the point of homelessness you are not that socially responsible... but someone may help you to do so. It happens."?

there's no proof, because he's just making stuff up

473 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:07:37pm

re: #463 prairiefire

Jane Says" Jane's Addiction:

[Video]

Have you seen my wig around?

Perry Farrell is a strange dude, but i love me some Jane's. Good call, as usual!

474 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:08:01pm

re: #464 Floral Giraffe

It also has to do with your mental health, I'm sorry to say.
MANY of the homeless, here in LA are Veterans, with mental health and other issues.

so, so true.

475 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:08:46pm

re: #471 HoosierHoops

GO COLTS!

yeah, there's my dude HH. you're going to miss Clark but Hart's got prospects...he's bonified...

476 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:08:50pm

Why is the stock market looking forward to political gridlock?

Figuring out how politics affects the markets is a favorite parlor game of stock analysts. And when it comes to control of Congress, the consensus has always been in favor of divided governments—they're less likely to get anything done, meaning less regulatory or legislative uncertainty for businesses. If small government is good, the theory goes, then hamstrung government is better. But recent research shows a more complicated picture. In fact, some Wall Street types are bracing for the new Congress to usher in a bear, rather than a bull.


It'll be interesting to see if/how the market reacts after the election.

477 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:09:32pm

re: #456 brookly red

no it has more to do with not being able to function within society... look I have sympathy with the homeless, I feel homelessness is worse than cancer, BUT with all the safety nets in place, you gotta think that to get to that point voting is not a high priority.

re: #469 WindUpBird

What? Wow, this is totally wrong

Homelessness comes primarly from mental illness dude, talk to any social worker

And if our mental health resources in America are staggeringly underfunded (which they are) then people who don't have the mental stability to keep themselves hooked up in society, they wind up homeless

I LITERALLY friends' former clients (they worked in mental health proper, I worked MR/DD with mentially ill MR/DD people) in mental health on the street, panhandling. off their meds, no shelter, no prospects, no nothing.

It has nothing to do with 'social responsibility". Pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, all the usual republican cliches, they don't make any sense, because you can't will away schizophrenia or organic brain disorders with low taxes and conservative ideology

One can only pull themselves up by their bootstraps to the extent that they can afford bootstraps.

478 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:10:34pm

re: #476 Killgore Trout

Over all years, the S&P rose at a 6.8 percent annual pace. During times of total unity, 67 of the 111 years analyzed, it gained 7.6 percent annual pace. During times of partial gridlock, accounting for 32 years, they gained 6.8 percent. And during the 12 years of a gridlocked Congress, the S&P gained just 2 percent per year. Looking at more recent years, since 1945, the pattern holds. Under total unity, stocks climbed at a 10.7 percent annual pace. Under partial gridlock, they gained 7.6 percent per year. And under total gridlock, which accounts for eight of the 65 years, they gained just 3.5 percent per year.


hmmmm...

479 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:10:49pm

Evening lizards!

480 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:11:20pm

re: #477 wozzablog

re: #469 WindUpBird

One can only pull themselves up by their bootstraps to the extent that they can afford bootstraps.

or identify them as bootstraps...my tone is light but it's nearly impossible to overestimate the percentage of adult homeless with a significant mental illness.

WUB- does 80% sound fair?

481 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:12:00pm

Kim Jong-Un Privately Doubting He's Crazy Enough To Run North Korea

PYONGYANG, NORTH KOREA—In surprisingly candid remarks Thursday, Kim Jong-un, heir apparent to North Korea's highest government post, expressed doubt that he was sufficiently out of his mind to succeed his father, longtime dictator Kim Jong-il.

While emphasizing that he was definitely completely insane and would likely be even less stable by the time he assumed power, the younger Kim nevertheless wondered if he could ever be enough of a lunatic to replace the most unhinged leader on the planet.

"Obviously, I know I was handpicked because I'm super crazy," said Kim, the youngest of the 69-year-old dictator's four known children. "But my father's just so great at what he does. Did you know the people of North Korea have heard his voice exactly once, for like five seconds? How nuts is that? Honestly, I look at stuff like that and I think, 'Wow, there's just no way I can ever top Dad.'"

482 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:15:08pm

re: #473 Aceofwhat?

I don't really care for his music, but I respect the hell out of him for working with (I don't recall the name, some christian org), raising money to help fight the African slave-trade. Big props.

483 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:18:00pm

re: #477 wozzablog

re: #469 WindUpBird

One can only pull themselves up by their bootstraps to the extent that they can afford bootstraps.

And, understand bootstraps.

484 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:18:14pm

Good pitcher's duel happening in the World Series tonight.

485 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:19:05pm

re: #484 NJDhockeyfan

Good pitcher's duel happening in the World Series tonight.

What's that?

486 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:19:21pm

re: #462 brookly red

wtf are you talking about? they often vote several times... don't get jiggy with me.

A little documentation would be nice...

487 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:19:55pm

re: #485 Slumbering Behemoth

What's that?

it's something to do when MNF is on commercial...

488 Reginald Perrin  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:20:27pm

re: #486 Floral Giraffe

A little documentation would be nice...

Don't hold your breath waiting for any documentation

489 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:20:59pm

re: #485 Slumbering Behemoth

What's that?

It's 0-2 in the 6th inning. They've given up very few hits. It's fun to watch if you like that kind of baseball game.

490 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:21:49pm

re: #482 Slumbering Behemoth

I don't really care for his music, but I respect the hell out of him for working with (I don't recall the name, some christian org), raising money to help fight the African slave-trade. Big props.

Here it is:


Perry flew to Sudan in 2001 with members of Christian Solidarity International to negotiate the release of Sudanese slaves.

He and the other members of Jane’s Addiction donated the profits from one of the concerts to secure the release of 2300 Sudanese slaves.

Pretty gawt-damned awesome of him, IMO.

491 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:22:38pm

re: #489 NJDhockeyfan

It's 0-2 in the 6th inning. They've given up very few hits. It's fun to watch if you like that kind of baseball game.

Okay now, what is that?

492 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:22:43pm

re: #486 Floral Giraffe

A little documentation would be nice...

oh please...

493 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:23:07pm

re: #490 Slumbering Behemoth

Here it is:

Pretty gawt-damned awesome of him, IMO.

beats the hell out of volunteering for PETA, that's fer damned shure...

494 palomino  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:24:21pm

re: #273 brookly red

well if you insist, I would run on the anti-corruption ticket: Any person(s) convicted of offering a bribe to any elected official, or any elected official convicted of accepting a bribe will be put to death by firing squad within 15 minutes of conviction. Vote for me.

Like I said, kinda crazy but not tea party crazy.

495 Gus  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:24:43pm

re: #403 SanFranciscoZionist

And the Berkeley Daily Planet, classy as ever.

Take a look at the third one down. What do you see?

Hey. That's by some guy named Gar Smith. He's got something in common with Sharron Angle: Stop fluoridating drinking water!

496 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:25:15pm

re: #491 Slumbering Behemoth

Okay now, what is that?

a game where the pace of play is slower than everything except the glacial pace at which technology is adapted to make the game better/

497 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:25:31pm

re: #494 palomino

Like I said, kinda crazy but not tea party crazy.

well it would be interesting to see who would vote against it, if you know what I mean.

498 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:26:02pm

re: #496 Aceofwhat?

a game where the pace of play is slower than everything except the glacial pace at which technology is adapted to make the game better/

i see the appeal of Baseball, but then i do enjoy cricket.

499 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:26:07pm

re: #493 Aceofwhat?

Lot's of celebs just love to talk the talk, but that dude actually walks the mother-fuckin' walk. I might not like his music or his politics, but he will always get BIG respect from me for that.

500 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:26:30pm

Colts score again! 14-0 Gotta call my buds in Indy!

501 kirkspencer  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:26:51pm

re: #491 Slumbering Behemoth

Okay now, what is that?

A three hour game of catch, with interruptions.

502 palomino  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:27:00pm

re: #444 brookly red

well as rule of thumb if you get to the point of homelessness you are not that socially responsible... but someone may help you to do so. It happens.

Most homeless are mentally ill, many of them drug addicts. Yes, it's not socially responsible. But their illness in most cases is just as real as diabetes or cancer.

503 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:27:26pm

re: #496 Aceofwhat?

a game where the pace of play is slower than everything except the glacial pace at which technology is adapted to make the game better/

Wait, NJDhf is watching golf?!?

504 palomino  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:28:07pm

re: #497 brookly red

well it would be interesting to see who would vote against it, if you know what I mean.

I'm all for the firing, just not the firing squad.

505 Gus  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:28:28pm

re: #495 Gus 802

Hey. That's by some guy named Gar Smith. He's got something in common with Sharron Angle: Stop fluoridating drinking water!

More Gar Smith fun. Fight anthrax by banning junk mail!

506 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:29:06pm

re: #488 Reginald Perrin

There's other things, I can hold my breath for.
...

507 ProMayaLiberal  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:29:11pm

re: #471 HoosierHoops

Hey you're back. I would have responded last night but I burned my fingers on the stove and couldn't type.

508 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:29:47pm

re: #506 Floral Giraffe

I'll be in my bunk.

509 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:29:50pm

re: #459 jamesfirecat

Do you have any actual proof to back up this assertion that the homeless don't vote?

One problem is registering without an address.

510 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:30:28pm

re: #462 brookly red

wtf are you talking about? they often vote several times... don't get jiggy with me.

The homeless and the dead vote so much in your world that I'm surprised we don't have a zombie camping on the White House lawn.

511 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:30:37pm

re: #497 brookly red

well it would be interesting to see who would vote against it, if you know what I mean.

No, what do you mean.

512 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:31:15pm

Way OT, but one for the computer geeks here.
Got my SGI Octane2 running on my home network today. Took way to much futtering about and parts swapping but ended up with a dual R12000's @ 300mhz, a gig of ram, VPro 8 graphics, a decent tape drive for backup & 82gb of disk. I'll only be doing 2D on it (Photoshop) so it's way overkill but I had serious technolust for these $30000+ machines 10 years ago. Now I get it for the price of gas to drive & get it. :)

513 Reginald Perrin  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:31:20pm

re: #506 Floral Giraffe

There's other things, I can hold my breath for.
...

There are?

If I wasn't such a coward, I'd ask what they were.

514 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:32:02pm

re: #492 brookly red

oh please...

Let me guess. This is another thing that everyone knows, and if you ask for more information, you're being unrealistic?

515 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:32:07pm

re: #502 palomino

Most homeless are mentally ill, many of them drug addicts. Yes, it's not socially responsible. But their illness in most cases is just as real as diabetes or cancer.

yes that is true... and homelessness in my opinion is the worst of our social problems. But it would seem that if the homeless vote as a block, there might just be some outside factor to explain it...

516 jaunte  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:32:27pm

re: #505 Gus 802

He might be just a touch overambitious:

- Close airports permanently. (Replace polluting jets with high-speed rail. A train will never be hijacked and flown into a high-rise.)
- Ban chemical fertilizers. (Ammonia nitrate fertilizer was used to make the bomb that destroyed the Federal Building in Oklahoma City).
- Ban chemically dependent agriculture. (Promoting small, family-owned organic farms, would eliminate crop dusters as a terrorist tool).
[Link: www.earthislandprojects.org...]
517 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:32:53pm

re: #508 Slumbering Behemoth

Waiting, a LONG time.
Sorry, Sir.

518 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:34:20pm

re: #517 Floral Giraffe

I'm not waiting for anything. All I ask is that you knock before entering.

519 palomino  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:34:31pm

If predictions are correct, the GOTP will have their largest House majority since the 1920s. They'll have the vast majority of purplish swing districts. Talk about overweight--it will be virtually impossible to hold this for long. Still they might have a majority for a decade or more, just as before.

But they're likely to overplay their hand, and assume that this victory is a mandate to move far right on all sorts of things. Of course that's a misinterpretation of what's happening, as a large majority wants not far right policies but actual cooperation between WH and Congress. But cooperation isn't in the GOTP lexicon. If anything, they're proud of not cooperating on anything.

520 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:34:35pm

re: #515 brookly red

yes that is true... and homelessness in my opinion is the worst of our social problems. But it would seem that if the homeless vote as a block, there might just be some outside factor to explain it...

Do the homeless vote as block?

521 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:35:14pm

re: #510 SanFranciscoZionist

The homeless and the dead vote so much in your world that I'm surprised we don't have a zombie camping on the White House lawn.

In my world? well gee wizz. that was cute... let us see how cute on the day after tomorrow, shall we?

522 Gus  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:36:09pm

re: #516 jaunte

He might be just a touch overambitious:

Yeah, I saw most of those. Ban everything except for the train that leaves the "Tom's of Maine" factory. /

He had this crazy idea too:

Extend the powers of the Patriot Act to cover the activities of corporations and the wealthy, thereby allowing citizens to "speak and peek" into private mansions and corporate headquarters to conduct secret searches, download computer files, and snap surveillance photos.

Guess he doesn't understand limits and the need for corporate secrecy. Either that or he puts out absurd ideas on purpose.

523 palomino  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:36:11pm

re: #515 brookly red

yes that is true... and homelessness in my opinion is the worst of our social problems. But it would seem that if the homeless vote as a block, there might just be some outside factor to explain it...

Do they vote as a block? Do they even vote in significant numbers? When you live under a bridge and hallucinate and do anything for your next fix, voting is probably not on your radar screen.

524 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:36:43pm

re: #514 SanFranciscoZionist

Let me guess. This is another thing that everyone knows, and if you ask for more information, you're being unrealistic?

yes in fact it is. but go on have your fun.

525 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:37:48pm

re: #523 palomino

Do they vote as a block? Do they even vote in significant numbers? When you live under a bridge and hallucinate and do anything for your next fix, voting is probably not on your radar screen.

as you like it... if it makes you feel better.

526 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:38:36pm

re: #521 brookly red

In my world? well gee wizz. that was cute... let us see how cute on the day after tomorrow, shall we?

Facts are actually not established by elections, except the fact of who gets this or that seat in Congress.

527 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:39:14pm

re: #524 brookly red

yes in fact it is. but go on have your fun.

A fact that 'everyone knows' that has no actual data attached to it is not a fact, it is a rumor.

528 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:39:37pm

re: #493 Aceofwhat?

beats the hell out of volunteering for PETA, that's fer damned shure...

Circuses are slavery!1!1!

/semi-naked PETA babe writhing around in chains and a tiger-stripe bikini

529 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:39:52pm

re: #525 brookly red

as you like it... if it makes you feel better.

Well, it hardly makes ME feel better to think they all hide under bridges. After all, if they can each vote a dozen times for Democrats, along with all the dead people, my candidates are safe!

530 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:40:03pm

re: #528 Alouette

Circuses are slavery!1!1!

/semi-naked PETA babe writhing around in chains and a tiger-stripe bikini

on second thought, i do love animals.../

531 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:40:18pm

re: #526 SanFranciscoZionist

Facts are actually not established by elections, except the fact of who gets this or that seat in Congress.

I guess that is true. So where do we go from here?

532 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:40:18pm

re: #519 palomino

If predictions are correct, the GOTP will have their largest House majority since the 1920s. They'll have the vast majority of purplish swing districts. Talk about overweight--it will be virtually impossible to hold this for long. Still they might have a majority for a decade or more, just as before.

But they're likely to overplay their hand, and assume that this victory is a mandate to move far right on all sorts of things. Of course that's a misinterpretation of what's happening, as a large majority wants not far right policies but actual cooperation between WH and Congress. But cooperation isn't in the GOTP lexicon. If anything, they're proud of not cooperating on anything.

A decade or more?

I bet they'll overplay their hand in time for Obama's re-election in 2012....

533 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:40:47pm

re: #520 SanFranciscoZionist

Do the homeless vote as block?

That was the question I was trying to get answered when I first raised the issue....

534 brookly red  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:41:36pm

now I am late for my beer run...

535 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:41:48pm

re: #531 brookly red

I guess that is true. So where do we go from here?

we open another beer. easy question.

536 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:42:00pm

re: #531 brookly red

I guess that is true. So where do we go from here?

I dunno. Anyone actually know anything around here about homeless people voting? Like I said, I think it's the issue of having an address that would be tricky. Also remembering what the hell day it is, for some of the population.

537 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:42:22pm

re: #532 jamesfirecat

A decade or more?

I bet they'll overplay their hand in time for Obama's re-election in 2012...

No two ways about it.
They just want to tear down. There is no plan other than tax cuts for the richest, tax relief for comapnies to help them hire in a no demand economy and gutting healthcare.

538 Max  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:42:26pm

Remember to check your rep's national security scores before you vote tomorrow.

539 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:42:32pm

Good evening, all.

540 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:42:33pm

re: #534 brookly red

now I am late for my beer run...

Run Forrest, run!

541 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:42:51pm

re: #521 brookly red

In my world? well gee wizz. that was cute... let us see how cute on the day after tomorrow, shall we?

my impression was that we all got to vote before the outcome could be assumed

542 prairiefire  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:43:32pm

re: #490 Slumbering Behemoth

Here it is:

Pretty gawt-damned awesome of him, IMO.

That's very nice. He's spending a lot of time now adays being a dad. And creating Kidsapalooza.[Link: www.babble.com...]

543 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:43:34pm

re: #538 Max D. Reinhardt

Remember to check your rep's national security scores before you vote tomorrow.

ain't that precious.

544 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:43:37pm

re: #528 Alouette

Circuses are slavery!1!1!

/semi-naked PETA babe writhing around in chains and a tiger-stripe bikini

Just a boob drawing attention with her boobs. ;)

545 jamesfirecat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:43:39pm

re: #539 Dark_Falcon

Good evening, all.

Hello Dark, best of luck at the midterms this year, I hope when Obama is running for re-election in 2012 you have better candidates on both sides of the aile...

546 jaunte  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:43:46pm

re: #536 SanFranciscoZionist

I dunno. Anyone actually know anything around here about homeless people voting? Like I said, I think it's the issue of having an address that would be tricky. Also remembering what the hell day it is, for some of the population.

There is some info here, but I haven't found any national statistics.
[Link: www.nationalhomeless.org...]

547 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:43:54pm

re: #538 Max D. Reinhardt

Remember to check your rep's national security scores before you vote tomorrow.

Garamendi, 'the Proven Democrat' gets a C.

548 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:44:02pm

re: #541 engineer dog

my impression was that we all got to vote before the outcome could be assumed

Quit living in the past.

/

549 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:45:09pm

re: #525 brookly red

as you like it... if it makes you feel better.

I like the French homeless... a much higher quality of homeless... well educated... there was this homeless guy, in Paris... I would see him year after year, on the same spot, corner of Rue Gare De Lyon and Rue Parrot... panhandling for francs (franc was still the medium of exchange when I first met him) and later of course, euros.

We spoke off and on. He could discuss philosophy and politics with almost anyone, from any culture, and he spoke French, German and English. He got a lot of attention, since Gare De Lyon was the rail hub for travelers and visitors coming and going East.

We spoke off and on, and I asked him once if employment was hard to get, I asked, why he wasn't working and living on the streets.

He told me, first off, he doesn't live on the streets, he had a small government supplied flat and got a stipend. He also let me know that he made much more money panhandling.

I haven't seen him in three years... since last time I was in Paris... I'll be staying in that quarter in Jan. I hope to say hi, see how he is doing.

550 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:45:34pm

Three run homer for the Giants. This may win the World Series for them.

551 Gus  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:45:43pm

re: #538 Max D. Reinhardt

Remember to check your rep's national security scores before you vote tomorrow.

Yep, that looks like an unbiased non-partisan group.

//

552 Reginald Perrin  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:45:43pm

Three run homer for SF

553 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:45:56pm

re: #547 SanFranciscoZionist

Garamendi, 'the Proven Democrat' gets a C.

I will say that the test seems slightly biased in favor of Republicans. Is it OK to say that?

554 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:46:55pm

Lounge upstairs. I'm taking my beer...

555 palomino  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:47:03pm

re: #525 brookly red

as you like it... if it makes you feel better.

I'm asking a simple question: do they vote as a block? I have no idea, which is why I'm asking.

556 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:47:38pm

That soldier's wife can sing!

557 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:48:05pm

re: #548 wozzablog

Quit living in the past.

/

sigh... i wonder if diebold needs c pgmrs...

558 Reginald Perrin  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:48:05pm

re: #549 Walter L. Newton

Why do you call him homeless if he had a government supplied flat?

559 palomino  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:50:00pm

re: #532 jamesfirecat

A decade or more?

I bet they'll overplay their hand in time for Obama's re-election in 2012...

I hope so. Their one saving grace from the Dems' POV may be that they're so off the rails, voters will reject them quickly.

But they've skillfully tapped into populist know-nothingism and anti-Obama hysteria. Those things will eventually recede, but they usually take a few years or so to play out.

560 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:50:01pm

re: #557 engineer dog

sigh... i wonder if diebold needs c pgmrs...

None that'd pick up the - shall we say - idiosyncrasy's inherent within voting machines.............

or one with any comment as to which districts the best machines.

561 palomino  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:51:34pm

re: #537 wozzablog

No two ways about it.
They just want to tear down. There is no plan other than tax cuts for the richest, tax relief for comapnies to help them hire in a no demand economy and gutting healthcare.

The larger plan is to "starve the beast", meaning they want govt to largely disappear by defunding it. Reagan used to talk about this, before he oversaw a huge govt expansion.

562 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:53:51pm

re: #558 Reginald Perrin

Why do you call him homeless if he had a government supplied flat?

That's what he called himself... he said he didn't like being in the flat... only went there occasionally... to pick up mail and attend to a few personal things... he stay a lot in these small gray dome tents that some charity group had set up along the quays of some of the canals in Paris.

Next question?

563 palomino  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:54:28pm

re: #550 NJDhockeyfan

Three run homer for the Giants. This may win the World Series for them.

Well, then we dangerous radicals here on the left coast will at least have one blue state victory to cheer this week.

564 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:55:49pm

re: #513 Reginald Perrin

Coward, is not a word I associate with you, in any way, shape or means,
Trying not to seem forward, is awkward.
Sir.

565 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 6:59:44pm

re: #564 Floral Giraffe

Coward, is not a word I associate with you, in any way, shape or means,
Trying not to seem forward, is awkward.
Sir.

Nor would I.

566 reine.de.tout  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 7:02:16pm

re: #523 palomino

Do they vote as a block? Do they even vote in significant numbers? When you live under a bridge and hallucinate and do anything for your next fix, voting is probably not on your radar screen.

That's what I would think, as well.

567 Bear  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 7:05:33pm

After observing the coffee grounds in the bottom of my cup I predict that tomorrow night and Wednesday morning there will be persons very pleased with the election outcome and there will be persons very upset with the election outcome.

568 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 7:06:49pm

re: #567 Bear

After observing the coffee grounds in the bottom of my cup I predict that tomorrow night and Wednesday morning there will be persons very pleased with the election outcome and there will be persons very upset with the election outcome.

My lapsang souchong agrees with your coffee.

569 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 7:22:37pm

re: #513 Reginald Perrin

There are?

If I wasn't such a coward, I'd ask what they were.

Dear Sir,
Coward is not a word I would apply to you.
That's not news to you.
re: #513 Reginald Perrin

570 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 10:58:04pm

re: #116 Varek Raith

Taxes are always to high for some conservatives.
Always.

And for some if not all liberals. In fact, I've rarely met anyone who has said that their taxes were too low, regardless of political slant.

In fact, EVERYONE'S taxes are too high, except for "The Rich", whoever that may be.

I do taxes for a living. In all my years of tax work, I've yet to find anyone who'd exchange both their high income and high taxes with me. This reinforces what my parents always said about taxes--"Make more money, pay more taxes, enjoy what's left".

571 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 11:07:47pm

re: #117 researchok

And I'm for a flat consumption tax.

Bad idea IMO. The poorer classes, who of necessity must spend all or almost all of their income, would wind up paying a higher percentage of their income compared to those who are able to save.

re: #202 wozzablog

From 2011 and beyond the estate tax threshhold is slated to be a $1,000,000 dollars (down from $3,000,000.
Precisely how middle class is middle class?

It's the same thing as defining "The Rich". It is Known Fact that "The Rich" are useless parasites and terrible human beings, and since I am the most selfless, worthy person on the planet, I must be middle class. "The Rich" are those people with even a dollar more than middle class Me./

572 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Nov 1, 2010 11:22:03pm

re: #211 kirkspencer

heh. I once more lobby for my simple tax. 50% on all income after expenses, with a an alternative default for expenses of 150% of the FPL.

Heh, I'll bet that for any individual, all of his/her/its expenses are reasonable and necessary, while the expense level of anyone else includes massive amounts of luxuries.

re: #272 Bear

If you are a business person you would be aware of the tax. However I doubt the average working stiff getting a pay check really is aware of how much his gross pay was reduced. Back in the days before withholding one may have been more aware just how much he/she was paying. Of course one of the reasons for withholding was a person might be hard pressed to pay the tax all at one time.

Federal income tax withholding was first implemented to accelerate money into the federal coffers as the government ramped up spending for WWII. IIRC, the government "forgave" one year's taxes in order to smooth the move to withholding (this was before my time).

573 KayInMaine  Tue, Nov 2, 2010 5:10:11am

I was at the rally on Saturday! Doing The Wave was the best. *grinning ear to ear* Those of us in attendance had a feeling that 150,000 wasn't the correct crowd size (announced by the Mythbusters guys), because when the rally got over you still had to walk shoulder to shoulder through the crowd that had filled the side streets alongside the rally. The edge of the crowd was nowhere in sight. What a madhouse! We all survived though...even the DC Metro did. :D

One of my most favorite rally signs was the one that read: "It's a sad day when our politicians are comical and we have to take our comedians seriously". Pretty much summed the day up if you ask me!

Thank you for this post, LGF. Glenn Beck is now realizing that his chances in running for president with Sarah Palin in 2012 are slim now because of the number of sane people who showed up to Stewart's rally. He so thought he had it in the bag with his 8/28 rally! Nope, looks like sanity has won the day. Way to go Americans!!!!

574 Lidane  Tue, Nov 2, 2010 6:59:37am

re: #571 ClaudeMonet

Bad idea IMO. The poorer classes, who of necessity must spend all or almost all of their income, would wind up paying a higher percentage of their income compared to those who are able to save.

This is precisely why I've never supported a national sales tax or any sort of flat consumption tax.

As someone who spent my 20's living where every single dollar made the difference between things like eating and paying rent and with few luxuries, I'm not sympathetic to the argument that an income tax is unfair, but that a consumption tax would be. The people advocating it tend to be those who would see their tax burden decline. Not so at the other end. For the people that are barely scraping by from paycheck to paycheck, and who don't have the luxury of investments or deep savings to fall back on, a consumption tax would devastate them, making things that much harder.

575 ClaudeMonet  Tue, Nov 2, 2010 9:06:26am

re: #574 Lidane

The people advocating it tend to be those who would see their tax burden decline.

That part is true of almost any tax proposal. ;-)

576 spiderx  Tue, Nov 2, 2010 6:57:23pm

does anyone know a moderate republican? Every republican I talk to sounds like a tea partier.


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