In Memoir, Bush Acknowledges That He Approved Waterboarding

US News • Views: 25,777

One of the interesting revelations in George W. Bush’s soon-to-be-released memoir is that he personally approved the use of waterboarding.

In his book, titled “Decision Points,” Bush recounts being asked by the CIA whether it could proceed with waterboarding Mohammed, who Bush said was suspected of knowing about still-pending terrorist plots against the United States. Bush writes that his reply was “Damn right” and states that he would make the same decision again to save lives, according to a someone close to Bush who has read the book.

Bush previously had acknowledged endorsing what he described as the CIA’s “enhanced” interrogation techniques - a term meant to encompass irregular, coercive methods - after Justice Department officials and other top aides assured him they were legal. “I was a big supporter of waterboarding,” Vice President Richard B. Cheney acknowledged in a television interview in February.

The Justice Department later repudiated some of the underlying legal analysis for the CIA effort. But Bush told an interviewer a week before leaving the White House that “I firmly reject the word ‘torture,’ ” and he reiterates that view in the book.

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354 comments
1 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 8:50:25am

Yes, Bush and Cheney never did care for things like basic human decency.

2 laZardo  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 8:52:08am

Can that be taken as a confession in a court of law?

3 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 8:52:14am

Is claiming waterboarding isn't torture, tortured logic?

4 theheat  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 8:52:42am

Okay, so say you approved it because you felt lives were at stake. Fine. But don't say it isn't torture, because it is.

5 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 8:53:32am

In fairness the jury is still out for me on the use of some interrogation techniques that could be considered torture in order to save lives. I've also wondered about the long standing policy of not assassinating heads of state.

In the end I would personally be very uncomfortable approving either.

6 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 8:54:55am

Bush openly admits crapping on the constitution, and not a whimper from the tea people.

7 theheat  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 8:56:13am

re: #6 Fozzie Bear

That's because they're fixing to start crapping on it themselves.

8 theheat  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 8:57:51am

re: #7 theheat

Link (from last thread). Whole lotta crapping planned.

9 laZardo  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 8:58:01am

I said it before to -19 karma and I'll say it again. This is conservative thought in action.

10 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 8:58:37am

I wonder how many lives were saved with the information received from
waterboarding those terrorist saps?

11 carefulnow  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 8:59:00am
Bush writes that his reply was "Damn right" and states that he would make the same decision again to save lives, according to a someone close to Bush who has read the book.


Am I to understand that the Washington Post writer who wrote this article hasn't read Bush's book?

12 Gus  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 8:59:05am

re: #8 theheat

Link (from last thread). Whole lotta crapping planned.

American's recent display of collective amnesia will be reversed within the next two years.

13 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 8:59:28am

re: #9 laZardo

I said it before to -19 karma and I'll say it again. This is conservative thought in action.

Authoritarian thought in action. I can foresee a "liberal" government stooping to that level as well if it thought something/someone was threatening the state. Or at least offering the same justification for it.

14 celticdragon  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 8:59:46am

He has admitted to authorizing an act that we executed Japanese war criminals for.

My God.

More here..
Omar Khadr was captured in 2002 in Afghanistan. He was the only survivor after a firefight and an air strike on an al-Qaeda position. He had been wounded in his shoulder and in both eyes, shot twice in the back and was near death. It was alleged that, just before he was shot, he had thrown a grenade at attacking American troops, killing one of them. As already noted, he was 15 years old.

He then spent several months in the hellhole that was Bagram airbase in Afghanistan, where he claims -- credibly, given all that we know about what went on at Bagram -- that he was subjected to sleep deprivation, the chaining of his hands above his head for hours, that he was hooded and threatened by dogs, and sometimes forced to urinate on himself because he was not unshackled to go to the bathroom.

His chief interrogator at Bagram admitted to telling the teenage boy that unless he co-operated, he would be sent to a U.S. prison, where a group of black men would gang rape him to death. Ponder that for a moment.
He was interviewed about 25 times by this interrogator, Joshua Claus. Claus was also the interrogator for an Afghan taxi driver named Dilawar who was chained to the ceiling and beaten to death in Bagram in 2002; Claus pled guilty to his involvement in the affair and received a five month sentence. In a lovely Orwellian touch, the U.S. government insisted that reporters covering Khadr's trial not name Claus, but instead refer to him as "Interrogator 1."

In Bagram, Khadr confessed that he had thrown the grenade that killed an American soldier. No one saw him do this, so his confession is really the only evidence of the act. Last summer, U.S. military judge Colonel Patrick Parrish ruled that the confession, despite the obviously coercive circumstances under which it was made, had been freely given, and could be used against Khadr in court.

This week, Omar Khadr was offered the following choice: plead guilty, or face two different routes to life in prison. He could go to trial, and thanks to a confession that would be laughed out of any real court of law, he'd probably be convicted. But even if the court somehow found him not guilty, the U.S. reserved the right to detain him indefinitely as an enemy combatant. The only sure way to get out of jail early was to tell his interrogators what they wanted to hear.

*********************

Read the whole thing.

Stalin is smiling somewhere in hell.

15 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:00:11am

re: #11 carefulnow

Am I to understand that the Washington Post writer who wrote this article hasn't read Bush's book?

He probably wasn't given a preview copy.

16 AK-47%  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:00:59am

Well, if the new congress is up to investigating things, here's a good place to start...

17 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:01:16am

There is one other thing to add to why Jews don't vote Republican, and why Jewish Law would consider the current GOP to be evil.

In a Beit Din (Jewish court) confessions are not admissible. This is something much like the 5th Amendment.

The reasons behind it are the same - to prevent authorities from extracting a confession through torture.

That way the state can not put on a show trial where someone confessed to just make the pain stop.

18 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:01:53am

re: #10 NJDhockeyfan

Given the nature of torture, it's impossible to know, and impossible to know if any real information could have been gotten through other means.

19 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:02:15am

re: #14 celticdragon

Even as bad as we got during the early years on the war on terror we never got into the same league as the Japanese and Germains we executed for war crimes.

20 theheat  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:02:23am

re: #12 Gus 802

The socon agenda made no secret they were itching to mobilize. And still people voted for them. Something about "fixing everything"...

21 celticdragon  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:02:49am

re: #10 NJDhockeyfan

I wonder how many lives were saved with the information received from
waterboarding those terrorist saps?

We got a lot of useless confessions and chased dead ends.

Torture is never about learning the truth It is about vengeance and forcing confessions. The vicitim will tell the torturer anything he wants to hear, including how he had sex with his dead grandmother last night in the prison cell if the victim thinks that is what the torturer wants him to say.

22 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:02:57am

re: #20 theheat

The socon agenda made no secret they were itching to mobilize. And still people voted for them. Something about "fixing everything"...

My cat was "fixed" and he didn't view it as an improvement I think...

23 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:03:02am

re: #9 laZardo

I said it before to -19 karma and I'll say it again. This is conservative thought in action.

Perhaps your definition of conservative. Not mine.

24 FriarsTale  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:03:31am

re: #2 laZardo

Can that be taken as a confession in a court of law?

probably

25 Gus  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:03:43am

re: #14 celticdragon

Waterboarding Used to Be a Crime
By Evan Wallach
Sunday, November 4, 2007

[...]

The United States knows quite a bit about waterboarding. The U.S. government -- whether acting alone before domestic courts, commissions and courts-martial or as part of the world community -- has not only condemned the use of water torture but has severely punished those who applied it.

After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."

Nielsen's experience was not unique. Nor was the prosecution of his captors. After Japan surrendered, the United States organized and participated in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, generally called the Tokyo War Crimes Trials. Leading members of Japan's military and government elite were charged, among their many other crimes, with torturing Allied military personnel and civilians. The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding.

In this case from the tribunal's records, the victim was a prisoner in the Japanese-occupied Dutch East Indies:

A towel was fixed under the chin and down over the face. Then many buckets of water were poured into the towel so that the water gradually reached the mouth and rising further eventually also the nostrils, which resulted in his becoming unconscious and collapsing like a person drowned. This procedure was sometimes repeated 5-6 times in succession.

[...]

26 laZardo  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:04:11am

re: #13 oaktree

Authoritarian thought in action. I can foresee a "liberal" government stooping to that level as well if it thought something/someone was threatening the state. Or at least offering the same justification for it.

America's government hasn't actually been anywhere close to "liberal" in decades. If anything, most of the governments condemning it are more liberal in nature.

The rest, unfortunately, happen to be the same sort of ultraconservative governments we outsource the torture to nowadays.

27 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:04:33am

re: #10 NJDhockeyfan

I wonder how many lives were saved with the information received from
waterboarding those terrorist saps?

I wonder how many people were tortured who had nothing whatsoever to do with terrorism. I wonder how much of a coward you have to be to support torturing people who have not been charged with any crimes because you are frightened.

28 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:04:57am

re: #10 NJDhockeyfan

I wonder how many lives were saved with the information received from
waterboarding those terrorist saps?

Almost certainly none. Torture doesn't work. Why? Because if you break someone, they will tell you whatever they think you want to hear, not necessarily the truth. This is not just what I say, but what the military says when it prohibited torture under the UCMJ and what retired intelligence operatives say.

We very pointedly did not torture Germans or Japanese during the second world war. That was a much more serious struggle and a vastly more dangerous threat. We managed to win with our honor intact on this front.

The only thing that people are for it have to really say is that they want someone to suffer terribly as vengeance.

That impulse is also clearly defined as EVIL in Biblical law.

29 Nick Schroeder  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:05:15am

re: #10 NJDhockeyfan

I wonder how many lives were saved with the information received from
waterboarding those terrorist saps?

I'm going with 'none'. Considering Khalid Sheikh Mohammad confessed to 9/11, the 1993 WTC bombing, the murder of Daniel Pearl, the Bali bombings, and pretty much every other act of terrorism that happened while he was alive, I'm going with:

A) Torture is immoral and wrong in any circumstance, and furthermore,
B) Anyone will say anything with an ice pick in their balls, therefore,
C) The use of torture produces data sets that are unreliable, which actually makes us less safe.

30 FriarsTale  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:06:29am

re: #9 laZardo

I said it before to -19 karma and I'll say it again. This is conservative thought in action.

by the way, is there an FAQ about Karma, or can someone remind me how it works?

31 theheat  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:06:54am

re: #27 Fozzie Bear

I wonder how many people were tortured who had nothing whatsoever to do with terrorism.

Do you think we'll ever know, any more than we'll know how many may have been saved? We're treated like children. We're supposed to go along with this because supposedly we're being saved. It might be easier to accept if we knew we were saved.

32 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:07:42am

re: #30 FriarsTale

If people like what you say, they hit the plus on your post, and you gain karma. If they dislike it, they hit the minus on your post. This is restricted to one increment per person per post.

Karma has no actual effect on anything, but reflects, in general, how well-thought of your comments have been over time.

33 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:07:43am

re: #30 FriarsTale

by the way, is there an FAQ about Karma, or can someone remind me how it works?

It is simply a measure of how much other Lizards liked or disliked your comment. To date there is no Karma redemption program, which is too bad. I'd like to redeem mine for airline miles or a new keychain.

34 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:09:01am

re: #32 Obdicut


Karma has no actual effect on anything, but reflects, in general, how well-thought of your comments have been over time.

Or in my case how many people enjoy smartass replies.

35 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:09:34am

re: #34 DaddyG

Or in my case how many people enjoy smartass replies.

Or in some cases... pity.

36 cliffster  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:09:47am

I miss Bush.

37 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:10:04am

re: #35 Walter L. Newton

Or in some cases... pity.

Ouch. :-)

38 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:10:18am

You can't detain people without benefit of legal defense, trial, or even habeus corpus, drown them, and then claim you did it for freedom.

39 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:10:34am

re: #14 celticdragon

Before you got here, I was very clear about the Tokyo trials, and how no bigger a left winger, than Gen. Douglas MacArthur considered torture to be a war crime.

I was clear about the history of convincing an enemy that if you will torture them, they will not surrender in battle. They have nothing to loose. That costs more lives - theirs obviously, and our men too, as you root them out to the last man.

I also pointed out how the best way to recruit is to paint your enemy as inhuman and utterly depraved. Torturing people is just that. You get no information out of it, but you do get a vastly more motivated enemy.

I also pointed out that the Nazi SS, Khmer Rouge and North Koreans were famous for waterboarding. So was the Spanish Inquisition.

Depraved scum like NJDhockypuck, and the teabags and the GOP are just fine with that.

40 theheat  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:10:56am

re: #38 Fozzie Bear

But we did, though.

41 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:11:15am

re: #21 celticdragon

We got a lot of useless confessions and chased dead ends.

Torture is never about learning the truth It is about vengeance and forcing confessions. The vicitim will tell the torturer anything he wants to hear, including how he had sex with his dead grandmother last night in the prison cell if the victim thinks that is what the torturer wants him to say.

Amen!

42 Gus  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:11:19am

re: #10 NJDhockeyfan

I wonder how many lives were saved with the information received from waterboarding those terrorist saps?

What information? You do realize that waterboarding has been considered torture by the international community including the USA for decades prior to America's reversal? And as noted many Japanese (WWII) were convicted by the USA for torture based on their employment of waterboarding? You do also realize that this was also considered torture by the Americans as recently as the Vietnam War?

43 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:11:30am

re: #40 theheat

But we did, though.

No, "we" did not. I was screaming my fucking head off the whole time. I am not part of the "we" of which you speak.

44 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:11:51am

re: #9 laZardo

I said it before to -19 karma and I'll say it again. This is conservative thought in action.

This isn't conservative thought. It's revolutionary thought. Revolutionaries are never concerned with ethics, only truth and power.

45 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:12:24am

re: #44 Romantic Heretic

This isn't conservative thought. It's revolutionary thought. Revolutionaries are never concerned with ethics, only truth and power.

Yes, and those revolutionaries are now called conservatives in the US.

46 laZardo  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:12:27am

re: #42 Gus 802

You do also realize that this was also considered torture by the Americans as recently as the Vietnam War?

That was about the time we decided Agent Orange was a good way to root out Charlie.

So the reversal about that time made sense.

47 celticdragon  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:12:49am

re: #19 DaddyG

Even as bad as we got during the early years on the war on terror we never got into the same league as the Japanese and Germains we executed for war crimes.


Tell that to the guy at Bagram who was beat so badly the investigating coroner thought his legs had been pulped by being repeatdly run over.
How about the Iraqi General who was beaten and then suffocated during interrogation
Lots more, and some we will never know about

Like authoritarian regimes the world over, we changed the language to hide what was being done as people vanished into secret prisons and evidence was heard by secret courts and judges that the accused and counsel were not even allowed to know about.

The only difference between us and (fill in the blank) is scale at this point. We haven't killed tens of thousands in concentration caps and secret prisons, but I do not believe for one minute we are not capable of it

48 theheat  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:13:20am

re: #43 Fozzie Bear

I didn't mean you, I meant the country as a whole. We were all along for the ride, like it or not. We were kept scared and ignorant as a matter of convenience.

49 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:13:28am

re: #45 Fozzie Bear

Yes, and those revolutionaries are now called conservatives in the US.


A misuse of the label conservative IMO. The socons and revolutionaries are as much to blame as anyone for that misappropriation of what used to mean the opposate of reactionary.

Sigh.

50 Lidanghazi  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:13:32am

re: #16 ralphieboy

Well, if the new congress is up to investigating things, here's a good place to start...

They'll get to it after they waste the next two years investigating Obama's birth certificate, Climategate, and trying to end the Fed.

51 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:13:55am

re: #18 Obdicut

Given the nature of torture, it's impossible to know, and impossible to know if any real information could have been gotten through other means.

History of the Second World war will show that we got our best information from being nice to prisoners. Feeding them well, giving them a smoke and letting them realize that they were not going to be savaged opened them up more than anything else. Look at any book on the subject from the Second World War.

This is again a case where the GOP thinks that facts, history and the basic truth are re-writable to suit their base impulses.

52 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:14:03am

re: #38 Fozzie Bear

You can't detain people without benefit of legal defense, trial, or even habeus corpus, drown them, and then claim you did it for freedom.

Oh you can. But then claiming high moral ground, or acting "American" sounds pretty hypocritical given how much we proclaim our superiority based on having a free press, individual rights, and protection from cruel and unusual punishment.

Not to mention that it appears to throw 200 years of work and precedence in the gutter.

53 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:14:26am

re: #19 DaddyG

Even as bad as we got during the early years on the war on terror we never got into the same league as the Japanese and Germains we executed for war crimes.

Yeah, cause they totally would have told us if they crossed the line, right? I mean, anybody who is an expert in "enhanced interrogation" must clearly also be the kind of person who would never take things too far, right?

54 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:15:00am

re: #49 DaddyG

A misuse of the label conservative IMO. The socons and revolutionaries are as much to blame as anyone for that misappropriation of what used to mean the opposate of reactionary.

Sigh.

If you vote for them, you support them, and you are one of them. If you didn't do that, then this doesn't apply to you.

55 abbyadams  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:15:15am

Nothing to say on this topic that Shep Smith didn't say. And I don't even watch Fox.

56 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:15:26am

re: #25 Gus 802

Waterboarding Used to Be a Crime
By Evan Wallach
Sunday, November 4, 2007

Big difference: I think about 80-90% of the victims of Japanese waterboarding died. And the torture was not limited to simple waterboarding.

57 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:15:37am

re: #19 DaddyG

Even as bad as we got during the early years on the war on terror we never got into the same league as the Japanese and Germains we executed for war crimes.

Unfortunately it looks like we did though, looking at the 'enhanced interrogation techniques' and comparing them to the 'sharpened interrogation techniques' used by the Germans against Norwegian partisans who were conducting sabotage and hit and run attacks against the Germans.

They're frighteningly similar, and we took the Germans responsible, gave them a trial, and executed them.

Yes I know it's Sullivan, and he's anathema to some of you, but on this subject, he him and Greenwald are frakking gold.

Mind you, I don't think Obama's been any better and in fact he's been incredibly frustrating because if anything he's using the same fear that Bush used to excuse the same behavior.

58 Gus  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:15:44am

re: #52 oaktree

Oh you can. But then claiming high moral ground, or acting "American" sounds pretty hypocritical given how much we proclaim our superiority based on having a free press, individual rights, and protection from cruel and unusual punishment.

Not to mention that it appears to throw 200 years of work and precedence in the gutter.

Let's face it. According to some, the logic works like this: waterboarding is torture unless the Americans are employing its use.

59 Gus  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:17:11am

re: #56 Killgore Trout

Big difference: I think about 80-90% of the victims of Japanese waterboarding died. And the torture was not limited to simple waterboarding.

What, you really think we're going to get an accurate number on how many terrorist suspects were killed because of waterboarding? No doubt many have died and you will never hear about it.

60 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:17:35am

re: #47 celticdragon
The isolated instances of torture and abuse are horrible, but they are still distinct from a national policy of torture and genocide like the Japanese and Germans engaged in during WWII.

Fortunately while we are capable of great deprivation the fact that we are openly critical of torture and abuse by the US and protected by our constitution in our criticism is a positive thing that keeps us from going all the way in that horrible direction.

I'm not arguing we have not done wrong. I am wary of equivicating the US in the 21st century with Emperial Japan or Nazi Germany. That's the only point I was trying to make.

61 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:17:36am

re: #56 Killgore Trout

Big difference: I think about 80-90% of the victims of Japanese waterboarding died. And the torture was not limited to simple waterboarding.

That's a difference in so far as what other tortures the Japanese employed, and how utterly unrestrained they were in their use.

It isn't a difference as to whether waterboarding itself is an actual torture. Torture and death have nothing to do with each other, really.

62 cliffster  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:17:50am

haha, bush and his band of revolutionary war criminal republicans

63 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:18:17am

re: #12 Gus 802

American's recent display of collective amnesia will be reversed within the next two years.

Kinda reminds me of women in relationships with abusive men. The guy treats her like crap (the whole time telling her that it's for her own good) then when he realizes he went too far, he comes back with tears in his eyes swearing things will be different THIS time: "Really, honey—I swear I've changed." And back into his arms she runs.

64 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:18:26am

re: #58 Gus 802

Let's face it. According to some, the logic works like this: waterboarding is torture unless the Americans are employing its use.

And unfortunately, I suspect that, when push comes to shove, we can't be sure that our government wouldn't do it again.

65 Lidanghazi  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:18:54am

re: #55 abbyadams

Nothing to say on this topic that Shep Smith didn't say. And I don't even watch Fox.

Agreed.

66 laZardo  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:19:02am

re: #51 LudwigVanQuixote

History of the Second World war will show that we got our best information from being nice to prisoners. Feeding them well, giving them a smoke and letting them realize that they were not going to be savaged opened them up more than anything else. Look at any book on the subject from the Second World War.

This is again a case where the GOP thinks that facts, history and the basic truth are re-writable to suit their base impulses.

I thought it was more down to planting dead fake Royal Marines in the water and good code-cracking than the actual interrogating...

67 Gus  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:19:07am

re: #63 CuriousLurker

Kinda reminds me of women in relationships with abusive men. The guy treats her like crap (the whole time telling her that it's for her own good) then when he realizes he went too far, he comes back with tears in his eyes swearing things will be different THIS time: "Really, honey—I swear I've changed." And back into his arms she runs.

Made me think of this:

"Sure, I used to beat my wife. But I didn't kill her."

68 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:19:24am

re: #63 CuriousLurker

Kinda reminds me of women in relationships with abusive men. The guy treats her like crap (the whole time telling her that it's for her own good) then when he realizes he went too far, he comes back with tears in his eyes swearing things will be different THIS time: "Really, honey—I swear I've changed." And back into his arms she runs.

CL you really hit it on the head.

69 laZardo  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:19:53am

re: #63 CuriousLurker

Kinda reminds me of women in relationships with abusive men. The guy treats her like crap (the whole time telling her that it's for her own good) then when he realizes he went too far, he comes back with tears in his eyes swearing things will be different THIS time: "Really, honey—I swear I've changed." And back into his arms she runs.

But that's all right, because I love the way it hurts...

70 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:19:56am

re: #28 LudwigVanQuixote

Almost certainly none. Torture doesn't work. Why? Because if you break someone, they will tell you whatever they think you want to hear, not necessarily the truth. This is not just what I say, but what the military says when it prohibited torture under the UCMJ and what retired intelligence operatives say.

We very pointedly did not torture Germans or Japanese during the second world war. That was a much more serious struggle and a vastly more dangerous threat. We managed to win with our honor intact on this front.

The only thing that people are for it have to really say is that they want someone to suffer terribly as vengeance.

That impulse is also clearly defined as EVIL in Biblical law.

You really think being very nice to terrorists will encourage them to give up information?

From the LA Times:

...Defenders of the practice say the waterboarding of Al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed produced information that allowed the U.S government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles in 2002.

According to a previously classified May 30, 2005, Justice Department memo that the Obama administration released last week, before he was waterboarded, when KSM was asked about planned attacks on the United States, he ominously told his CIA interrogators, “Soon, you will know.”

After the "enhanced techniques," which the agency used on him 183 times, KSM -- the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks -- told investigators about a "second wave" of terrorists from East Asia who planned to crash a hijacked airliner into a building in Los Angeles.

After he was subjected to the waterboarding technique, wrote Conservative News Service's Terence P. Jeffrey,"KSM became cooperative, providing intelligence that led to the capture of key Al Qaeda allies and, eventually, the closing down of an East Asian terrorist cell that had been tasked with carrying out the 9/11-style attack on Los Angeles."

The Justice Department memo concluded:

In particular, the CIA believes that it would have been unable to obtain critical information from numerous detainees, including KSM and Abu Zubaydah, without these enhanced techniques. ... [They] had expressed their belief that the general U.S. population was "weak," lacked resilience, and would be unable to "do what was necessary to prevent the terrorists from succeeding in their goals."

What is worse, many dead Americans in LA or a wet terrorist?

71 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:20:17am

re: #53 Fozzie Bear

Yeah, cause they totally would have told us if they crossed the line, right? I mean, anybody who is an expert in "enhanced interrogation" must clearly also be the kind of person who would never take things too far, right?


Our free press and millitary justice system uncovered it and convicted it whenever it could be found. That is a good thing.

72 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:20:25am

re: #66 laZardo

I thought it was more down to planting dead fake Royal Marines in the water and good code-cracking than the actual interrogating...

You have good points. I am not trying to take away from breaking Enigma or anything like that. I was specifically talking about getting intelligence from prisoners.

73 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:21:21am

re: #70 NJDhockeyfan

What is worse, many dead Americans in LA or a wet terrorist?

When defending waterboarding, minimizing it makes you look silly. You know very well that it doesn't simply make people wet. So why portray it as such? If you honestly want to defend it, shouldn't you be honest about what it is, rather than evading the severity of it?

74 celticdragon  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:21:24am

re: #56 Killgore Trout

Big difference: I think about 80-90% of the victims of Japanese waterboarding died. And the torture was not limited to simple waterboarding.


Yeah, we kept our guys alive (well, some of them....) so we could keep doing it again and again and again...

75 Ben Jephazi  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:21:33am

re: #66 laZardo

I thought it was more down to planting dead fake Royal Marines in the water and good code-cracking than the actual interrogating...

The dead fake Royal Marine was meant to push Hitler's thought in the direction it was already going. There's no way to know if it had any effect whatsoever. It was probably a fluke.

The good code-cracking though, that paid off big.

76 theheat  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:22:20am

re: #70 NJDhockeyfan

After the "enhanced techniques," which the agency used on him 183 times, KSM -- the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks -- told investigators about a "second wave" of terrorists from East Asia who planned to crash a hijacked airliner into a building in Los Angeles.

Holy shit. 183 times? What current information could he possibly know after being "interrogated" 183 fucking times? I smell bullshit.

77 Gus  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:22:33am

re: #74 celticdragon

Yeah, we kept our guys alive (well, some of them...) so we could keep doing it again and again and again...

Link was a little messed up. Fixed:

[Link: www.harpers.org...]

78 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:23:46am

Anybody who is arrested, for ANY crime, is constitutionally guaranteed a trial, and certain minimum standards for treatment during their incarceration. There are no exceptions made for any specific class of crime. Torture is specifically prohibited by the constitution. It is right there, in plain words, in the 8th amendment.

79 harlequinade  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:23:50am

re: #10 NJDhockeyfan

“If we know or believe action by us will lead to torture taking place, we’re required by UK and international law to avoid that action, and we do, even though that allows that terrorist activity to go ahead.”

These words – spoken by the Head of MI6, Sir John Sawer.

80 Lidanghazi  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:25:07am

re: #73 Obdicut

When defending waterboarding, minimizing it makes you look silly. You know very well that it doesn't simply make people wet. So why portray it as such? If you honestly want to defend it, shouldn't you be honest about what it is, rather than evading the severity of it?

Because it's easier to minimize, and therefore de-humanize what's actually being done. That way you don't have to have any messy ethical debates with yourself. If you pretend that it's okay because the person being tortured is only a terrorist, then there are no consequences to think about.

I doubt he'd be as sanguine if it was the Taliban doing the same things to American soldiers.

81 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:26:02am

It doesn't matter what NJD, or any other revolutionary scum thinks, it's fucking illegal.

82 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:26:03am

BBL

83 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:26:37am

re: #27 Fozzie Bear

I wonder how many people were tortured who had nothing whatsoever to do with terrorism. I wonder how much of a coward you have to be to support torturing people who have not been charged with any crimes because you are frightened.

Guess how many terrorists were waterboarded?

WASHINGTON, Feb 5 (Reuters) - The CIA used a widely condemned interrogation technique known as waterboarding on three suspects captured after the Sept. 11 attacks, CIA Director Michael Hayden told Congress on Tuesday.

"Waterboarding has been used on only three detainees," Hayden told the Senate Intelligence Committee. It was the first time a U.S. official publicly specified the number of people subjected to waterboarding and named them.

...Those subjected to waterboarding were suspected Sept. 11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and senior al Qaeda leaders Abu Zubaydah and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, Hayden said at the Senate hearing on threats to the United States.

You really think these guys had nothing whatsoever to do with terrorism?

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was the man behind the 9/11 attacks.
Abd Al-Rahim al-Nashiri was behind the attack on the USS Cole.
Abu Zubaydah was a top operations officer for al Qaeda.

84 celticdragon  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:27:17am

re: #60 DaddyG

The isolated instances of torture and abuse are horrible, but they are still distinct from a national policy of torture and genocide like the Japanese and Germans engaged in during WWII.

Fortunately while we are capable of great deprivation the fact that we are openly critical of torture and abuse by the US and protected by our constitution in our criticism is a positive thing that keeps us from going all the way in that horrible direction.

I'm not arguing we have not done wrong. I am wary of equivicating the US in the 21st century with Emperial Japan or Nazi Germany. That's the only point I was trying to make.

We most certainly had a national policy of torture ...and we allowed genocidal ethnic and religious urder to flourish and be directed fro out of th very ministry offices (the Ministry of the Interior particularly)of the new Iraqi government w had created.

The difference is in scale, not in kind. We have done and allowed things to be done by our surrogates that which we condemned and sent men to the gallows for 50 years ago.

And we say "Hell yeah!" when asked about it.

85 Gus  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:27:21am

re: #78 Fozzie Bear

Anybody who is arrested, for ANY crime, is constitutionally guaranteed a trial, and certain minimum standards for treatment during their incarceration. There are no exceptions made for any specific class of crime. Torture is specifically prohibited by the constitution. It is right there, in plain words, in the 8th amendment.

Their opt out though is they're foreigners and the 8th Amendment doesn't apply. Would be interesting to see how the USA would operate if we created a dividing line between citizens and foreigners and the application of Constitutional protections.

86 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:27:41am

re: #70 NJDhockeyfan

You have to love how true-believers like quote things from the Bush stacked Justice Department to back up the original position the Bush administration ordered them to come up with.

Did you know that Beck agrees with Rush a lot too!

Simple question Puck. Are you or Bush a bigger general than Macarthur or Eisenhower, or Patton who all considered water boarding to be both useless and a war crime? Montgomery did too.

And yes, Puck, during the Second World war, we got vastly more intelligence from prisoners - by simply being nice to them- than by any other means.

Are you a bigger general than Grant who forbade the sorts of things done at Andersonville (water boarding was popular there too). How much good did all that Confederate water boarding do the South by the way in their effort against the North?

People like the North Koreans have similar values to yours though Puck. They LOVE waterboarding. Perhaps you should not be so hard on them as your views are so very similar and utterly anti-American on so many things.

87 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:27:48am

re: #14 celticdragon

Just for accuracy.... There were no, zero, nada, japanese military officials tried strictly for using their version of "water torture". Two, the big difference between the japanese version and what was done by the US CIA is the end result. Unlike what occurred during WW2, none of the 3 terrorists waterboarded died.

88 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:28:20am

re: #70 NJDhockeyfan
That's a false dichotomy. On average we would have received as much information if we set enemy combatants up in Club Gitmo with an Xbox and a Koran.

The bottom line on torture is that it really isn't effective as an intelligence gathering tool. It is also immoral and illegal on top of that.

Lincoln, FDR, all of the Presidents that presided over the cold war, Clinton, Bush and even Obama have each chosen to ignore the law in crises situations. Not having access to their thought process and intelligence I am wary of over the top criticism- however I do wonder if we wouldn't be better off if we hadn't ignored our own laws for the sake of expediency.

The other side of that coin is when we torture or deny civil rights we are breaking our law - and we tend to self correct over time. That is the greatest distinction between the US and other countries that practice denying civil rights as a matter of policy.

89 laZardo  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:28:32am

re: #83 NJDhockeyfan

"Officially" speaking.

There's also extraordinary rendition.

90 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:29:18am

re: #88 DaddyG

That's a false dichotomy. On average we would have received as much information if we set enemy combatants up in Club Gitmo with an Xbox and a Koran.

Got a link to support that?

91 Lidanghazi  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:29:36am

re: #87 RogueOne

Unlike what occurred during WW2, none of the 3 terrorists waterboarded died.

John McCain didn't die in the Hanoi Hilton, either, but what they did to him was still torture.

92 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:29:56am

OK Friar's tale, down dinging curious lurker for saying she would Be back LAter is not good manners.

93 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:30:20am

re: #83 NJDhockeyfan


I call bullshit:

Over a hundred documented deaths have occurred in these interrogation sessions. The Pentagon itself has conceded homocide by torture in multiple cases.

We executed Germans who didn't kill people during their torture sessions, and we give our guys a Medal.

Just admit that you think we can do whatever we want to the enemy and be giant frakking hypocrites because we make the laws and frankly, might makes right.

94 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:30:42am

re: #90 NJDhockeyfan

Got a link to support that?

Will you actually read it? It isn't as if you read the hundreds of links on this that people like me and Gus gave you at the time.

95 celticdragon  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:31:22am

re: #70 NJDhockeyfan


What is worse, many dead Americans in LA or a wet terrorist?

False dilemma..but I'll bite. I'd say losing our national soul and raping our tradition of Anglo Saxon liberty and jurisprudenc is far worse than whatever you sem to imagine.

I think that dirty fucking hippy Patrick Henry had a few things to say about that..

96 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:31:29am

re: #86 LudwigVanQuixote

You have to love how true-believers like quote things from the Bush stacked Justice Department to back up the original position the Bush administration ordered them to come up with.

Did you know that Beck agrees with Rush a lot too!

Simple question Puck. Are you or Bush a bigger general than Macarthur or Eisenhower, or Patton who all considered water boarding to be both useless and a war crime? Montgomery did too.

And yes, Puck, during the Second World war, we got vastly more intelligence from prisoners - by simply being nice to them- than by any other means.

Are you a bigger general than Grant who forbade the sorts of things done at Andersonville (water boarding was popular there too). How much good did all that Confederate water boarding do the South by the way in their effort against the North?

People like the North Koreans have similar values to yours though Puck. They LOVE waterboarding. Perhaps you should not be so hard on them as your views are so very similar and utterly anti-American on so many things.

This anti-American too.

And I’d like to interject a note of balance here. There are times when we all get in high dudgeon. We ought to be reasonable about this. I think there are probably very few people in this room or in America who would say that torture should never, ever be used, particularly if thousands of lives are at stake.
Take the hypothetical: If we knew that there was a nuclear bomb hidden in an American city and we believed that some kind of torture, fairly severe maybe, would give us a chance of finding that bomb before it went off, my guess is most Americans and most senators, maybe all, would say, Do what you have to do.
So it’s easy to sit back in the armchair and say that torture can never be used. But when you’re in the foxhole, it’s a very different deal.

Chuck Schumer at a June 8th, 2004 Senate Judiciary

97 laZardo  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:31:42am

re: #88 DaddyG

That's a false dichotomy. On average we would have received as much information if we set enemy combatants up in Club Gitmo with an Xbox and a Koran.

What's funny is that I have a PS3, and whenever I play GTA IV late enough at night I always encounter players with "KSA" (Kingdom of Saudi Arabia), "UAE" and other Arabic 'gamertags.'

Makes you wonder...

98 Gus  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:31:43am

Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

99 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:31:57am

re: #91 Lidane

John McCain didn't die in the Hanoi Hilton, either, but what they did to him was still torture.

I only pointed it out because it's a phony meme. Secondly, what was done to McCain left life long scars and disabilities and more than just a few of his mates died. The worst thing that happened to these 3 terrorists is they might have bad dreams. I'm having a rough time feeling sorry for it.

100 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:32:57am

re: #63 CuriousLurker

Kinda reminds me of women in relationships with abusive men. The guy treats her like crap (the whole time telling her that it's for her own good) then when he realizes he went too far, he comes back with tears in his eyes swearing things will be different THIS time: "Really, honey—I swear I've changed." And back into his arms she runs.

Like all bullying behaviour, this is a sign of very low self esteem. The only way such a person can make themselves feel better is to batter others into submission.

It's not strength that makes a batterer or torturer act the way they do, it's weakness.

101 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:33:04am

re: #96 Walter L. Newton

And yet Walter, Eisenhower, Patton, MacArthur, Grant and real soldiers forbade doing such things when they knew exactly what being in a foxhole meant.

102 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:33:37am

re: #84 celticdragon
There are differences in scale and in practice. The things that the US intelligence officials did compared with what Mengele and the Japanese did have no similarity at all.

I am not defending what we did to some of the prisoners we interrogated. I am saying that it doesn't even equate with WWII Axis practices. In addition we have checks and balances that prevent us from going all the way off the rails. When we do the wrong thing our freedom of speech and our justice system correct those wrongs.

103 celticdragon  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:33:46am

re: #87 RogueOne

Just for accuracy... There were no, zero, nada, japanese military officials tried strictly for using their version of "water torture". Two, the big difference between the japanese version and what was done by the US CIA is the end result. Unlike what occurred during WW2, none of the 3 terrorists waterboarded died.

The ones we beat to death and strangled died, but they had brown skin so it doesn't matter.

//

104 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:33:49am

re: #98 Gus 802

Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

But, but, but they aren't Americans.... wait for it... 5...4...3...2...1

105 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:33:53am

re: #86 LudwigVanQuixote

People like the North Koreans have similar values to yours though Puck. They LOVE waterboarding. Perhaps you should not be so hard on them as your views are so very similar and utterly anti-American on so many things.

That's not North Korean torture, this is:

Tens of thousands of political prisoners face starvation, torture and summary execution in prison camps in North Korea, according to the testimony of a prisoner to a United States Senate inquiry.

In a detailed, often harrowing first-hand description of conditions inside Kaechon camp and other detention centres run by the communist regime, Soon Ok Lee told the inquiry of apparent biological and chemical weapons experiments on prisoners.

She said she had witnessed numerous other atrocities, including the murder of newborn babies by guards and doctors.

"While I was there, three women delivered babies on the cement floor without blankets," Ms Soon told a Senate judiciary subcommittee chaired by Democrat Edward Kennedy.

"It was horrible to watch the prison doctor kicking the pregnant women with his boots. When a baby was born, the doctor shouted, 'Kill it quickly. How can a criminal expect to have a baby? Kill it.'

"The women covered their faces with their hands and wept. Even though the deliveries were forced by injection, the babies were still alive when born. The prisoner-nurses, with trembling hands, squeezed the babies' necks to kill them."

... Senator Sam Brownback, who sits on the judiciary subcommittee, said: "North Korea is today's 'killing field', where millions of people considered politically hostile or agitators ... starve to death while those in power enjoy luxurious lifestyles."

Ms Soon told Congress that prison inmates were frequently tortured and were used as targets when guards practised martial arts skills.

There were also frequent public executions at Kaechon of "anti-party elements" and "reactionaries". It was not unusual for prisoners to be driven to suicide.

Ms Soon said that the estimated 6000 prisoners in the jail when she was first incarcerated had nearly all died when she was released five years later.

Keep posting your lies. You are very good at it.

106 Gus  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:34:13am

US Code
TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 113C > § 2340A
§ 2340A. Torture

(a) Offense.— Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life.

(b) Jurisdiction.— There is jurisdiction over the activity prohibited in subsection (a) if—
(1) the alleged offender is a national of the United States; or
(2) the alleged offender is present in the United States, irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged offender.

(c) Conspiracy.— A person who conspires to commit an offense under this section shall be subject to the same penalties (other than the penalty of death) as the penalties prescribed for the offense, the commission of which was the object of the conspiracy.

Note, this is not a call to prosecute anyone on these ground. I am merely providing this for informational purposes.

107 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:34:17am

re: #98 Gus 802

Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

They aren't American citizens. At the time they were not in the American court system and are thus not covered by Constitutional rights.

108 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:34:31am

re: #101 LudwigVanQuixote

And yet Walter, Eisenhower, Patton, MacArthur, Grant and real soldiers forbade doing such things when they knew exactly what being in a foxhole meant.

Agreed. I consider Schumers support of torture to be anti-American... don't you?

109 Gus  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:34:50am

re: #104 LudwigVanQuixote

But, but, but they aren't Americans... wait for it... 5...4...3...2...1

Heck. In that case we can torture foreign tourists at will. We can be like any other 3rd world country.

110 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:34:56am

re: #90 NJDhockeyfan

Got a link to support that?

[Link: www.google.com...]

Take your pick...

111 Lidanghazi  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:35:20am

re: #99 RogueOne

From the point of view of the North Vietnamese, McCain was an enemy combatant and invader who was ruthlessly killing their people. They captured him and tortured him to try and get information, which he somehow managed to survive.

By your logic, the North Vietnamese were entirely justified in what they did to him because he was their enemy. What's the ethical difference between that and America torturing people?

112 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:35:39am

re: #93 bloodstar

I call bullshit:

We executed Germans who didn't kill people during their torture sessions, and we give our guys a Medal.

Just admit that you think we can do whatever we want to the enemy and be giant frakking hypocrites because we make the laws and frankly, might makes right.

Andrew is mistaken, big surprise. There was only one case where someone died under interrogation that was classified as torture. One is more than enough but lets not blow it out of proportion.

113 laZardo  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:36:07am

re: #106 Gus 802

(2) the alleged offender is present in the United States, irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged offender.

Guantanamo Bay, being a military base, is considered U.S. soil.

114 Gus  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:36:25am

re: #107 Killgore Trout

They aren't American citizens. At the time they were not in the American court system and are thus not covered by Constitutional rights.

Neither are foreign tourists. Or holders of immigrant Visas. Are you saying we should treat these people outside of the Constitution whenever the need arises? So a police department can grab a tourist of the streets of NYC, torture them or whatever, and then tell them "tough shit you're not a citizen?"

115 FriarsTale  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:36:26am

re: #92 LudwigVanQuixote

OK Friar's tale, down dinging curious lurker for saying she would Be back LAter is not good manners.

it's not like this is a skype chat and u have to say "Be Back Later"
theses are posts that stay here forever

BBL?
who cares?

116 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:36:46am

re: #105 NJDhockeyfan

That's not North Korean torture...

Yay, we're better than North Korea!

If you set the bar any lower, those Chilean miners would be able to walk over it. :)

117 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:36:54am

re: #98 Gus 802

Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

On u.s. citizens. You passed the part where treatment of enemy detainees is left to our president and congress.....

118 celticdragon  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:37:05am

re: #107 Killgore Trout

They aren't American citizens. At the time they were not in the American court system and are thus not covered by Constitutional rights.


Christ on a crutch.

119 Gus  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:37:20am

re: #113 laZardo

Guantanamo Bay, being a military base, is considered U.S. soil.

Right, but there's a bi "OR".

120 laZardo  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:37:37am

Ah hell. I'm going to bed. Nighty.

121 theheat  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:37:49am

re: #115 FriarsTale

It's kind of polite in polite discourse to announce your departure if you've been involved in a conversation. Not mandatory, but it is polite.

So why be a dick about it?

122 Gus  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:37:55am

re: #119 Gus 802

Right, but there's a bi "OR".

Let me re-type that.

Right, but there is a big "OR" before that entry.

123 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:38:07am

re: #97 laZardo

What's funny is that I have a PS3, and whenever I play GTA IV late enough at night I always encounter players with "KSA" (Kingdom of Saudi Arabia), "UAE" and other Arabic 'gamertags.'

Makes you wonder...


World Peace through violent video games!

124 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:38:18am

In case anyone has any doubts about where I stand, waterboarding is torture. Period. If the US calls it torture when it's used against our soldiers -- and we do -- we don't get to claim a special exemption when we use the same damned technique on our enemies.

125 laZardo  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:38:31am

re: #119 Gus 802

Right, but there's a bi "OR".

I always figured that meant if one of those condition were filled, then it counts.

126 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:38:42am

re: #106 Gus 802

You'll notice "torture" isn't defined. It's left to our elected officials to decide what does and what doesn't constitute torture.

127 Gus  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:38:54am

re: #117 RogueOne

On u.s. citizens. You passed the part where treatment of enemy detainees is left to our president and congress...

Do you have a reference for that?

128 celticdragon  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:38:58am

re: #107 Killgore Trout

They aren't American citizens. At the time they were not in the American court system and are thus not covered by Constitutional rights.

Let's go shoot some furriners coming over the border. They aren't covered by our Constitution.

129 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:39:01am

re: #114 Gus 802

Neither are foreign tourists. Or holders of immigrant Visas. Are you saying we should treat these people outside of the Constitution whenever the need arises? So a police department can grab a tourist of the streets of NYC, torture them or whatever, and then tell them "tough shit you're not a citizen?"

No, foreign nationals who are arrested by police are still covered by the constitution. Foreign combatants captured by the military/CIA in other countries are not protected by our constitution.

130 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:39:12am

re: #115 FriarsTale

it's not like this is a skype chat and u have to say "Be Back Later"
theses are posts that stay here forever

BBL?
who cares?

And it's not like you have to be an asshole.

131 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:40:22am

We already had this argument and my side, the pro-waterboarders, lost. The constitution leaves it to the president and our elected officials to decide how detainees are to be treated. We choose those officials by voting and the non-waterboarders won. The important thing, to me, isn't that we waterboard but that we get to make the decisions for ourselves....again, by voting.

132 FriarsTale  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:40:47am

re: #130 Walter L. Newton

And it's not like you have to be an asshole.

alls i did was click a button, there to be clicked

133 cliffster  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:41:01am

re: #128 celticdragon

Let's go shoot some furriners coming over the border. They aren't covered by our Constitution.

Let's try Bush for war crimes.

134 Gus  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:41:08am

re: #126 RogueOne

You'll notice "torture" isn't defined. It's left to our elected officials to decide what does and what doesn't constitute torture.

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 113C > § 2340
§ 2340. Definitions

(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;

(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
(C) the threat of imminent death; or
(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and

(3) “United States” means the several States of the United States, the District of Columbia, and the commonwealths, territories, and possessions of the United States.

135 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:41:45am

I am sure our gubment, as well as other gubments, have done worse than waterboarding over the years. Not saying it's right, just sayin'.

136 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:41:56am

re: #132 FriarsTale

alls i did was click a button, there to be clicked

Bite me jerk.

137 Gus  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:42:41am

re: #133 cliffster

Let's try Bush for war crimes.

That's the second time you've jumped to conclusions and have attempted to "Poison the Well". If we cannot have this conversation even on an academic level then we are lost.

138 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:42:45am

re: #128 celticdragon

Let's go shoot some furriners coming over the border. They aren't covered by our Constitution.


Damn Canuks coming here to steal all of our wimmens! We tried interrogating a few of them on the Minnesota border but the water froze before it hit them and knocked 'em clean out. //

139 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:42:59am

re: #112 RogueOne

Andrew is mistaken, big surprise. There was only one case where someone died under interrogation that was classified as torture. One is more than enough but lets not blow it out of proportion.

Just one death during Interrogation?

* A 27-year-old Iraqi male died while being interrogated by Navy Seals on April 5, 2004, in Mosul, Iraq. During his confinement he was hooded, flex-cuffed, sleep deprived and subjected to hot and cold environmental conditions, including the use of cold water on his body and hood. The exact cause of death was ""undetermined"" although the autopsy stated that hypothermia may have contributed to his death. Notes say he ""struggled/ interrogated/ died sleeping."" Some facts relating to this case have been previously reported. (In April 2003, Secretary Rumsfeld authorized the use of ""environmental manipulation"" as an interrogation technique in Guantánamo Bay. In September 2003, Lt. Gen. Sanchez also authorized this technique for use in Iraq. Although Lt. Gen. Sanchez later rescinded the September 2003 techniques, he authorized ""changes in environmental quality"" in October 2003.)
* An Iraqi detainee (also described as a white male) died on January 9, 2004, in Al Asad, Iraq, while being interrogated by ""OGA."" He was standing, shackled to the top of a door frame with a gag in his mouth at the time he died. The cause of death was asphyxia and blunt force injuries. Notes summarizing the autopsies record the circumstances of death as ""Q by OGA, gagged in standing restraint."" (Facts in the autopsy report appear to match the previously reported case of Abdul Jaleel.)
* A detainee was smothered to death during an interrogation by Military Intelligence on November 26, 2003, in Al Qaim, Iraq. A previously released autopsy report, that appears to be of General Mowhoush, lists ""asphyxia due to smothering and chest compression"" as the cause of death and cites bruises from the impact with a blunt object. New documents specifically record the circumstances of death as ""Q by MI, died during interrogation.""
* A detainee at Abu Ghraib Prison, captured by Navy Seal Team number seven, died on November 4, 2003, during an interrogation by Navy Seals and ""OGA."" A previously released autopsy report, that appears to be of Manadel Al Jamadi, shows that the cause of his death was ""blunt force injury complicated by compromised respiration."" New documents specifically record the circumstances of death as ""Q by OGA and NSWT died during interrogation.""
* An Afghan civilian died from ""multiple blunt force injuries to head, torso and extremities"" on November 6, 2003, at a Forward Operating Base in Helmand Province, Afghanistan. (Facts in the autopsy report appear to match the previously reported case of Abdul Wahid.)
* A 52-year-old male Iraqi was strangled to death at the Whitehorse detainment facility on June 6, 2003, in Nasiriyah, Iraq. His autopsy also revealed bone and rib fractures, and multiple bruises on his body. (Facts in the autopsy report appear to match the previously reported case of Nagm Sadoon Hatab.)

Really, take your pick.

140 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:43:05am

re: #127 Gus 802

Do you have a reference for that?

Article 1 section 8 gives the congress the authority to make the rules, hence they make the rules.

141 theheat  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:43:37am

re: #132 FriarsTale

Why don't you go ahead neutralize your downding of CL, and redeem yourself for being petty. Pretty easy. Just as easy as it was to downding her.

142 celticdragon  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:43:53am

re: #112 RogueOne

Andrew is mistaken, big surprise. There was only one case where someone died under interrogation that was classified as torture. One is more than enough but lets not blow it out of proportion.

Yeah...

The interrogation and detention regime implemented by the U.S. resulted in the deaths of over 100 detainees in U.S. custody -- at least. While some of those deaths were the result of "rogue" interrogators and agents, many were caused by the methods authorized at the highest levels of the Bush White House, including extreme stress positions, hypothermia, sleep deprivation and others. Aside from the fact that they cause immense pain, that's one reason we've always considered those tactics to be "torture" when used by others -- because they inflict serious harm, and can even kill people. Those arguing against investigations and prosecutions -- that we Look to the Future, not the Past -- are thus literally advocating that numerous people get away with murder.

Clap louder!

143 Gus  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:44:10am

re: #140 RogueOne

Article 1 section 8 gives the congress the authority to make the rules, hence they make the rules.

Yep. They make the rules. President Obama banned waterboarding.

Waterboarding is torture.

144 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:44:23am

Ohh and by the way...

FriarsTale
(Logged in)
Registered since: Feb 24, 2005 at 7:33 am
No. of comments posted: 3,333
No. of Pages posted: 52

So he has only just posted again starting in August of this year, after a long long break, he is dinging innocuous comments, and asking questions about karma...

Can you say Sock? I knew you could!

145 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:45:04am

re: #139 bloodstar

What I said was one death during interrogation that was classified as torture. More people died, some after rough interrogation, but only once through what they deemed "torture".

146 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:45:37am

Let's not forget blasting Eminem for hours at a time. Gah!!!
//

147 cliffster  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:46:40am

re: #137 Gus 802

That's the second time you've jumped to conclusions and have attempted to "Poison the Well". If we cannot have this conversation even on an academic level then we are lost.

Indeed I was. Perhaps you should look at the comment I was replying to. Mine was a rhetorical poisoning.

148 celticdragon  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:47:00am

re: #129 Killgore Trout

No, foreign nationals who are arrested by police are still covered by the constitution. Foreign combatants captured by the military/CIA in other countries are not protected by our constitution.


So that includes the poor bastard we pulled off a bus in Pakistan by mistake? That German tourist we held for months at Bagram? The farmer we paid a bounty on and found out three years later he had pissed of a drug lord?

Keep peddling that line. We have a legal system to keep this shit from happening...and we shit all over it.

149 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:47:02am

re: #133 cliffster

Let's try Bush for war crimes.


Let's not. Prosecuting current and former US Chief Executives is another bad idea.

150 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:48:52am

re: #145 RogueOne

What I said was one death during interrogation that was classified as torture. More people died, some after rough interrogation, but only once through what they deemed "torture".

Point well taken, but I'd argue that if you die during interrogation, that should automatically be moved to torture. After all, you died, it's kinda hard to recover from a case of death.

Also, I don't care what anyone says, someone putting weight on my chest to slowly smother me to death is torture no matter what the definition is.

Smothering SUCKS. I mean, really really really shitty way to go.

151 theheat  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:49:13am

re: #149 DaddyG

But that's the plan. Impeachment investigations by the shiny new GOPs, within the first three months have been stated, explicitly.

152 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:49:37am

re: #105 NJDhockeyfan

The Norks are well known for waterboarding Puck. The fact that they also do more horrific things does not alter the fact,. The same applied to the NAzis, the Inquisition and the Confederates at Andersonville to name a few.

As always, your attempts to distract from the points - are you perhaps trying to claim that it isn't torture again - you putz! - with illogic, do not help your depraved, immoral and evil case.

If you believe torture is just fine, you are evil.

If you believe this wasn't torture, you are both, deluded and stupid as well as evil.

If you think that this is what American values or ideals are, you anti-American as well as deluded, stupid and evil.

If you think it works or serves some benefit, when Eisenhower, MacArthur, Patton, Grant and the UCMJ say otherwise, because somehow you know better, you are arrogant, as well as anti-American, deluded, stupid and evil.

153 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:49:44am

Didn't we torture one with insects?

154 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:50:12am

re: #148 celticdragon


Keep peddling that line. We have a legal system to keep this shit from happening...and we shit all over it.

This last comment is at the heart of my disagreement with you.

We don't shit all over it. Occasionally someone takes a dump on it and the rest of us call them on it, clean up what we can and prosecute them under our laws for doing it.

Its not your principles I have issue with just the level of hyperbole and pessimism about our leadership as a whole.

155 FriarsTale  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:50:27am

re: #144 LudwigVanQuixote

Ohh and by the way...

FriarsTale
(Logged in)
Registered since: Feb 24, 2005 at 7:33 am
No. of comments posted: 3,333
No. of Pages posted: 52

So he has only just posted again starting in August of this year, after a long long break, he is dinging innocuous comments, and asking questions about karma...

Can you say Sock? I knew you could!

I'm not a sock
I'm a real person, with only 1 LGF account
to me, "bbl" on a site like this makes little sense
it's true I was away for a while, not posting but occasionally reading the site
it's up to the owner of this site to decide if I'm real or not, and wether or not I should be allowed an account

156 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:51:00am

re: #148 celticdragon

So that includes the poor bastard we pulled off a bus in Pakistan by mistake? That German tourist we held for months at Bagram? The farmer we paid a bounty on and found out three years later he had pissed of a drug lord?

Keep peddling that line. We have a legal system to keep this shit from happening...and we shit all over it.

Amen! Let's also not forget the thousands of children under 5 on the no-fly list because they have the wrong name.

157 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:51:32am

re: #152 LudwigVanQuixote

The Norks are well known for waterboarding Puck. The fact that they also do more horrific things does not alter the fact,. The same applied to the NAzis, the Inquisition and the Confederates at Andersonville to name a few.

As always, your attempts to distract from the points - are you perhaps trying to claim that it isn't torture again - you putz! - with illogic, do not help your depraved, immoral and evil case.

If you believe torture is just fine, you are evil.

If you believe this wasn't torture, you are both, deluded and stupid as well as evil.

If you think that this is what American values or ideals are, you anti-American as well as deluded, stupid and evil.

If you think it works or serves some benefit, when Eisenhower, MacArthur, Patton, Grant and the UCMJ say otherwise, because somehow you know better, you are arrogant, as well as anti-American, deluded, stupid and evil.

OK Duck, I guess you feel the same way about the four members of Congress who approved of it as well including Nancy Pelosi?

158 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:51:32am

re: #151 theheat

But that's the plan. Impeachment investigations by the shiny new GOPs, within the first three months have been stated, explicitly.


I'll believe it when I see the proceedings. Many Dems said the same thing before 2008 and that turned out to be bluster.

Man I hope "we the people" (and our elected representatives) aren't that stupid.

159 FriarsTale  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:52:27am

bbl

160 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:52:41am

re: #143 Gus 802

Yep. They make the rules. President Obama banned waterboarding.

Waterboarding is torture.

I disagree that it's torture but my side of the debate lost. I can live with that, the system worked how it was intended.

BUT, waterboarding still isn't "illegal". The obama ban will last as long as he doesn't change his mind. See how that works? If they managed to pick up Osama all it would take is an OK from the pres to waterboard him.

161 webevintage  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:52:45am

I don't care how many humans were water boarded or it they have lasting scars or even if we had gotten any real info (we did not) from them.
It. Is.Torture.
Torture is fucking wrong and makes us into monsters who will keep pushing (because it is human nature) over the line between what is acceptable to protect our country.
Always fucking wrong.

(and really there is something wrong with a man who has no problem with OKing torture, but had a sad over a comment from Kanye West.)

162 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:53:37am

re: #159 FriarsTale

bbl


TTFN!

C ya later

Adios Amigo

(now that is torture) /

163 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:53:56am

CCA torture kit:
Drill
Jumper cables
Pliers
Blow torch
Vanilla Ice CD
Anything from Applebee's
/

164 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:54:18am

re: #157 NJDhockeyfan

OK Duck, I guess you feel the same way about the four members of Congress who approved of it as well including Nancy Pelosi?

I do feel that way. I am no fan of Pelosi and never have been. This is also a distraction from the actual point - yet again from your small, twisted, deluded, arrogant, proven wrong and evil set of canned talking points.

And by the way. The definition of evil in use here is one that anyone who actually believes in the Bible should be a little frightened of. But as has been shown time and again by the right, you don't.

165 FriarsTale  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:54:26am

hey, why is my Karma going down?

166 Gus  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:54:33am

re: #160 RogueOne

I disagree that it's torture but my side of the debate lost. I can live with that, the system worked how it was intended.

BUT, waterboarding still isn't "illegal". The obama ban will last as long as he doesn't change his mind. See how that works? If they managed to pick up Osama all it would take is an OK from the pres to waterboard him.

Sure. Well, in that case if you are correct about Article 1 Section 8 then we can write a rule that allows us to grab any terrorist suspect on the street and shoot him in the head on the spot. Or round up Arab suspects and place them in detention camps. Just because something is "legal" doesn't make it right.

167 theheat  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:55:15am

re: #158 DaddyG

I know, and that was one of the reasons the Dems were so mad at Pelosi, because she would not pursue impeachment. But as recently as yesterday, the GOPs made no bones about the fact impeachment proceedings are on the table. Will they do it? Maybe not. But if they do, nobody can pretend to be surprised. It isn't like it came out of thin air.

168 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:55:47am

re: #155 FriarsTale

I'm not a sock
I'm a real person, with only 1 LGF account
to me, "bbl" on a site like this makes little sense
it's true I was away for a while, not posting but occasionally reading the site
it's up to the owner of this site to decide if I'm real or not, and wether or not I should be allowed an account

So you know what a sock is, and enough to try to deny it, but you don't get karma?

MMMHMMM

169 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:56:53am

I am my own sock puppet.

170 funky chicken  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:57:05am

re: #5 DaddyG

In fairness the jury is still out for me on the use of some interrogation techniques that could be considered torture in order to save lives. I've also wondered about the long standing policy of not assassinating heads of state.

In the end I would personally be very uncomfortable approving either.

I could approve killing off Kim Jong Il. The people of North Korea have suffered enough.

171 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:57:20am

re: #166 Gus 802

Sure. Well, in that case if you are correct about Article 1 Section 8 then we can write a rule that allows us to grab any terrorist suspect on the street and shoot him in the head on the spot. Or round up Arab suspects and place them in detention camps. Just because something is "legal" doesn't make it right.

Which is why it's important that the people get to decide what is and isn't "right". The 3 assholes that got waterboarded? I have zero sympathy for them, it wouldn't have bothered me if they were seriously terrorized, paybacks are a bitch, but I'm more of an eye for an eye kind of guy.

172 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:57:23am

re: #158 DaddyG

I'll believe it when I see the proceedings. Many Dems said the same thing before 2008 and that turned out to be bluster.

Man I hope "we the people" (and our elected representatives) aren't that stupid.

Actually I think that Obama was responsible for keeping a lid on that crap. Mind you, it pissed a lot of the left off when he did (starting the whole 'OMG, Obama sold us out, he's worse than Bush!' meme), and probably set the stage for the depressed turnout on the left. But despite my own personal views on it, I think Obama did the best thing he could do for the country with what he did.

Mind you, it didn't do a damn thing to win respect for most of the right (with a few exceptions), they just kept right on demonizing Obama as the next incarnation of Che, Mao, Stalin etc.

Heck, I heard Boortz going on and on Wednesday after the election about how Obama wants to tear this country down and destroy everything that America stands for, And that Obama wants to make America weak.

173 Ben Jephazi  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:57:27am

re: #168 LudwigVanQuixote

Or why we might call out absences of a couple hours so people know we likely won't be back to reply until after the thread is dead? That took me all of a day of reading the site to figure out.

Sock.

174 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:57:36am

re: #170 funky chicken

I could approve killing off Kim Jong Il. The people of North Korea have suffered enough.

Killing him wouldn't stop their suffering.

That's the problem.

175 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:57:52am

re: #167 theheat

I know, and that was one of the reasons the Dems were so mad at Pelosi, because she would not pursue impeachment. But as recently as yesterday, the GOPs made no bones about the fact impeachment proceedings are on the table. Will they do it? Maybe not. But if they do, nobody can pretend to be surprised. It isn't like it came out of thin air.

Citation?

176 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:58:09am

re: #164 LudwigVanQuixote

I do feel that way. I am no fan of Pelosi and never have been. This is also a distraction from the actual point - yet again from your small, twisted, deluded, arrogant, proven wrong and evil set of canned talking points.

And by the way. The definition of evil in use here is one that anyone who actually believes in the Bible should be a little frightened of. But as has been shown time and again by the right, you don't.

The Bible? WTF does that have to do with waterboarding? You are sounding illogical you putz!

177 theheat  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:58:24am

re: #165 FriarsTale

Why haven't you reversed your downding of Curious Lurker; too perplexing? Part of karma is what goes around comes around. Nobody here likes people being dicks just for the sake of being a dick. So far, you're being a dick.

178 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:58:26am

re: #155 FriarsTale

I'm not a sock
I'm a real person, with only 1 LGF account
to me, "bbl" on a site like this makes little sense
it's true I was away for a while, not posting but occasionally reading the site
it's up to the owner of this site to decide if I'm real or not, and wether or not I should be allowed an account

And it's the users of this site that decided if you are being a jerkwad.

179 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:58:27am

Did anyone ever see the story of a female CIA agent who wiped (what he believed) was menstrual blood on a detainee after shutting off the water to his cell?

180 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:58:52am

re: #148 celticdragon


Keep peddling that line. We have a legal system to keep this shit from happening...and we shit all over it.


Sort of but not really. I think it's a mistake to assume aggressive interrogations aren't still going on today. What Bush was trying to do is bring some level of transparency to issues like detainees (GITMO) and even extraordinary renditions were done with a certain level of public knowledge. It was an interesting legal experiment which didn't really work. What we are seeing under Obama is a return to the status quo. CIA black sites are really black, we never hear of them. Rendition flights are really done secretly again. Newspapers aren't interviewing the newest additions to Gitmo. It's all done under the table.

181 Gus  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:59:00am

re: #171 RogueOne

Which is why it's important that the people get to decide what is and isn't "right". The 3 assholes that got waterboarded? I have zero sympathy for them, it wouldn't have bothered me if they were seriously terrorized, paybacks are a bitch, but I'm more of an eye for an eye kind of guy.

OK I see it more as a slippery slope. IOW, why stop at waterboarding?

182 celticdragon  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:59:04am

re: #154 DaddyG

This last comment is at the heart of my disagreement with you.

We don't shit all over it. Occasionally someone takes a dump on it and the rest of us call them on it, clean up what we can and prosecute them under our laws for doing it.

Its not your principles I have issue with just the level of hyperbole and pessimism about our leadership as a whole.


I'm a Hobbesian realist. Our humanity (or lack of it) and capacity for good or evil is no different from any other nation in any other time. We are just as capable of true monstrouness as the Nazis were, and we have managed to delude ourselves into thinking otherwise.

183 cliffster  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:59:20am

re: #137 Gus 802

That's the second time you've jumped to conclusions and have attempted to "Poison the Well". If we cannot have this conversation even on an academic level then we are lost.

Incidentally - in this conversation, which is had over and over and generally sounds the same, the gist of it always seems to be that Bush and his staff committed war crimes. (In this thread "revolutionary" was added in, which is kinda cute, but "Nazi" seemed to be left which is a little disappointing. I'm sure it'll make it in next time) It seems to be, because that's the way liberals actually feel - that Bush is a war criminal. This topic is one that really sets off liberals and their Bush-hate.

Would that this issue be taken to the forefront in the next two years. What a way for Democrats to try and win back the House that way.

184 theheat  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 9:59:45am

re: #175 RogueOne

Lemme find it - I bookmarked it.

185 celticdragon  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:00:02am

re: #165 FriarsTale

hey, why is my Karma going down?

That funny corn chip smell in here might be clue.

186 Gus  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:00:17am

re: #183 cliffster

Would that this issue be taken to the forefront in the next two years. What a way for Democrats to try and win back the House that way.

I wouldn't suggest it.

187 FriarsTale  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:00:20am

re: #168 LudwigVanQuixote

So you know what a sock is, and enough to try to deny it, but you don't get karma?

MMMHMMM

re: #177 theheat

Why haven't you reversed your downding of Curious Lurker; too perplexing? Part of karma is what goes around comes around. Nobody here likes people being dicks just for the sake of being a dick. So far, you're being a dick.

I won't do it because I meant it

188 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:00:38am

re: #170 funky chicken

I could approve killing off Kim Jong Il. The people of North Korea have suffered enough.

re: #172 bloodstar
I disagree with many of Obama's policies and I think he is somewhat radical in his progressive idealism. However, there is something about the Oval Office and the information it brings that encourages real governance in the most idological politician.

I am sooooo bored of the Bush is Eeeevil vs. Obama is Eeeeevil arguments.

The polarization of the American electorate is not a good thing and most of the rhetoric is overblown. Whose fault is it? Jefferson and Madison of course.

189 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:00:41am

re: #176 NJDhockeyfan

The Bible? WTF does that have to do with waterboarding? You are sounding illogical you putz!

It has to do with the "righteous" hypocrisy and fake piety of Republicans who bang the Bible but commit major sins in God's name. It is parallel to how they wrap themselves in the flag and cry about the constitution as they tear it apart. In this case, we have both of these principles in play.

Of course you are too stupid, deluded, and frankly evil to see that.

190 celticdragon  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:00:53am

re: #180 Killgore Trout


I appreciate the thoughtful response.

191 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:00:59am

re: #170 funky chicken

I could approve killing off Kim Jong Il. The people of North Korea have suffered enough.

They should have done something about N. Korea decades ago. We've allowed millions to suffer. I hope that sets well on peoples consciences. People freaked out about waterboarding 3 asshats can sleep at night knowing we're playing nice while millions live in abject poverty starving to death.

192 celticdragon  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:01:31am

re: #185 celticdragon

That funny corn chip smell in here might be clue.


Downdinging me won't make it go away...

193 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:02:15am

re: #181 Gus 802

OK I see it more as a slippery slope. IOW, why stop at waterboarding?

I might be the wrong person to ask.

194 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:02:32am

re: #183 cliffster

I do feel strongly that it was wrong of Bush to order that people be tortured.

"War criminal" is an entirely different, and extremely complicated discussion.

Do you recognize that someone can feel very, very strongly that what Bush did in this instance is extremely wrong, on every level, without it rising to the level of calling him a war criminal?

195 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:02:44am

re: #173 3eff Jeff

Or why we might call out absences of a couple hours so people know we likely won't be back to reply until after the thread is dead? That took me all of a day of reading the site to figure out.

Sock.

The thing that really tipped me off was ding CL. The only possible reason he would do so is that she is a Muslim. The nick picture of The former Russian premier with an AK is a bit of a tip off also.

Being pro-torture is a real tip off as well.

196 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:02:54am

re: #192 celticdragon

Downdinging me won't make it go away...

Downding means you hit a nerve. I welcome them.

197 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:03:10am

re: #191 RogueOne

And what should we do, Rogue? How do you fix North Korea?

198 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:03:52am

So Friar, you were leaving, but you are hanging around to ding... Come on out and play before you get your sock exiled to the swamp again.

199 celticdragon  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:04:12am

re: #191 RogueOne

They should have done something about N. Korea decades ago. We've allowed millions to suffer. I hope that sets well on peoples consciences. People freaked out about waterboarding 3 asshats can sleep at night knowing we're playing nice while millions live in abject poverty starving to death.


There is that little problem of a one million man army, chemical and biological agents on missiles aimed at Japan and ten thousand (no exaggeration) artillery pieces within range of Seoul.

I would like to see the little chia pet bastard dead too, but I'm not willing to trade the 2nd Infantry Division and 4 million civilians to do it

200 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:04:14am

re: #189 LudwigVanQuixote

It has to do with the "righteous" hypocrisy and fake piety of Republicans who bang the Bible but commit major sins in God's name. It is parallel to how they wrap themselves in the flag and cry about the constitution as they tear it apart. In this case, we have both of these principles in play.

Of course you are too stupid, deluded, and frankly evil to see that.

It seems like it was approved by members of both parties. Either you think Democrats don't read the Bible or you are just posting lies to appear like you know what you are talking about. Either way you are again a lying putz!

201 tradewind  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:04:46am

Heh...
[Link: www.mediaite.com...]

202 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:05:14am

re: #197 Obdicut

And what should we do, Rogue? How do you fix North Korea?

Get the UN and IMF involved. The world loves those orgs. Not being sarcastic.

203 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:05:20am

re: #170 funky chicken

I could approve killing off Kim Jong Il. The people of North Korea have suffered enough.


Very tough call. In reality it is their business to overthrow their own dictator. We should only ever be engaged in regeime change when called upon by a plurality citizens of a country to assist them with their own revolution - and even then we should think twice. Otherwise we are jumping into a fight that is not ours and we risk the entire country seeing us as the enemy imperialist.

204 cliffster  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:06:41am

re: #194 Obdicut

I do feel strongly that it was wrong of Bush to order that people be tortured.

"War criminal" is an entirely different, and extremely complicated discussion.

Do you recognize that someone can feel very, very strongly that what Bush did in this instance is extremely wrong, on every level, without it rising to the level of calling him a war criminal?

Of course I do. And there is that one person in every thousand or so that actually thinks at that level. From what I've seen, though, it's generally neither. It's just a valve through which people can let their bush-hating fumes escape. People waving their signs saying, "Bush the torturer" with swastikas on Bush's forehead are not really interested in nuance.

205 FriarsTale  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:06:44am

re: #195 LudwigVanQuixote

I didn't know CL was a Muslim or a female

I feel you are over-reacting

want to know why I cut back coming here so much?

It was because of people like Mandy Manners acting like it was their personal site

206 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:07:09am

re: #200 NJDhockeyfan

It seems like it was approved by members of both parties. Either you think Democrats don't read the Bible or you are just posting lies to appear like you know what you are talking about. Either way you are again a lying putz!

Your frothing idiocy again misses the point that I am not a Dem, and that I do not approve of anyone approving this. I most assuredly think that many Dem politicians don't read the Bible. Of course they don't bang on it and hold themselves up as pious before desecrating it either.

And it is still a distraction from the main points:

If you believe torture is just fine, you are evil.

If you believe this wasn't torture, you are both, deluded and stupid as well as evil.

If you think that this is what American values or ideals are, you anti-American as well as deluded, stupid and evil.

If you think it works or serves some benefit, when Eisenhower, MacArthur, Patton, Grant and the UCMJ say otherwise, because somehow you know better, you are arrogant, as well as anti-American, deluded, stupid and evil.

207 FriarsTale  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:07:40am

re: #198 LudwigVanQuixote

So Friar, you were leaving, but you are hanging around to ding... Come on out and play before you get your sock exiled to the swamp again.

who do you think I am?

208 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:07:54am

re: #205 FriarsTale

I didn't know CL was a Muslim or a female

I feel you are over-reacting

want to know why I cut back coming here so much?

It was because of people like Mandy Manners acting like it was their personal site

And we have some stalker talking points also...

Please keep talking.

209 gehazi  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:08:03am

re: #154 DaddyG

This last comment is at the heart of my disagreement with you.

We don't shit all over it. Occasionally someone takes a dump on it and the rest of us call them on it, clean up what we can and prosecute them under our laws for doing it.

So how exactly have we cleaned up this mess? Who exactly have we prosecuted? The justice system is *supposed* to work to prevent these kinds of excesses, but it failed to do so and not a damn thing has been done to make it right.

210 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:08:18am

re: #201 tradewind

Heh...
[Link: www.mediaite.com...]

Is it supposed to be a surprise that Mediaite promotes Fox News? Or is that supposed to be proof of something, other than Mediaite's own very obvious bias?

211 tradewind  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:08:41am

re: #180 Killgore Trout
Anyone who thinks that this administration hasn't been shipping folks off to Egypt or other parts unknown for interrogation that makes waterboarding look like a case of the sniffles is delusional.

212 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:08:47am

re: #205 FriarsTale

Many times, especially in the AM, it is an open forum. Debate the point someone is making. Not really that hard.

213 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:09:00am

re: #207 FriarsTale

who do you think I am?

And now he's bating me because he knows he's been outed. Guessing their true identities is a big game for them because they feel they are all stealth cyber ninjas.

The answer is I really don't give a shit.

You think torture is ok and that makes you evil.

214 funky chicken  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:09:08am

re: #203 DaddyG

I'd be happier if China took him out, and then took over stabilizing the place for a while, but they don't appear to be interested, and I can't blame them. It appears N. Korea doesn't have much to offer in terms of resources, and the people have been so abused and brainwashed that they are certain to be a real mess.

215 Gus  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:09:08am

re: #201 tradewind

Heh...
[Link: www.mediaite.com...]

You mean a commentary by Colby Hall?

216 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:09:26am

re: #182 celticdragon

I'm a Hobbesian realist. Our humanity (or lack of it) and capacity for good or evil is no different from any other nation in any other time. We are just as capable of true monstrouness as the Nazis were, and we have managed to delude ourselves into thinking otherwise.


That is why we built a representative Democracy with a Bill of Rights.

Are we capable of becoming what the Nazis were during WWII? Yes. Are we on that road because of isolated departures from our values? No.

Your legally protected public criticism and opposition to those departures from our law and principles (along with a great number of Americans) is proof that we are not now on the road to becoming Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan of the mid 20th century.

217 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:09:38am

re: #188 DaddyG

re: #172 bloodstar
I disagree with many of Obama's policies and I think he is somewhat radical in his progressive idealism. However, there is something about the Oval Office and the information it brings that encourages real governance in the most idological politician.

I am sooo bored of the Bush is Eeeevil vs. Obama is Eeeevil arguments.

The polarization of the American electorate is not a good thing and most of the rhetoric is overblown. Whose fault is it? Jefferson and Madison of course.

Quoted for Truth.

IF we want to get the polarization out of government, we need to find a way to reduce the number of truely safe seats out there. a short fix would be to reducing the amount of gerrymandering of congressional districts.

A longer term fix would be to find a way to reduce the power of a two party system, Much harder to do, because of course the powers that are in control owe their loyalty to the two party system.

I do like the idea of IRV but the US can't mandate how states run their elections so you have to get individual states on board. IRV gives third party candidates more clout because people can vote for them and know that if they finish third or worse, their votes will get moved up their second choices.

I just don't see it happening in the US in the near future though.

218 tradewind  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:09:47am

re: #204 cliffster
After 9-11, how many times in the nearly eight years were we victimized by terrorists in the states?
And what's the score card now..... after only two years....

219 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:09:47am

OT:

My incredibly horrible internet company had been providing the worst service in the world. It's called IBEC BPL and since I get hooked up it repeatedly is connected and disconnected every few minutes. I have been calling them about it for the past year and a half. The last 3 months I have been calling them daily about it. Today they finally got the message and called me back twice telling me it will be fixed next week. I hope they are correct.

220 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:09:49am

re: #211 tradewind

Anyone who thinks that this administration hasn't been shipping folks off to Egypt or other parts unknown for interrogation that makes waterboarding look like a case of the sniffles is delusional.

Linky?

221 FriarsTale  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:10:20am

re: #213 LudwigVanQuixote

And now he's bating me because he knows he's been outed. Guessing their true identities is a big game for them because they feel they are all stealth cyber ninjas.

The answer is I really don't give a shit.

You think torture is ok and that makes you evil.

you are sounding paranoid

222 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:10:28am

re: #197 Obdicut

And what should we do, Rogue? How do you fix North Korea?

That is "above our pay grade". We can only be there for them if they reach out to us for help becoming a free and prosperous nation.

223 tradewind  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:10:53am

re: #210 Charles
Mediaite is just as likely to slam Fox news as promote it.... if you finish the article, they include some of just that.
I really don't think that Abrams is a right winger.

224 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:11:20am

re: #219 NJDhockeyfan

OT:

My incredibly horrible internet company had been providing the worst service in the world. It's called IBEC BPL and since I get hooked up it repeatedly is connected and disconnected every few minutes. I have been calling them about it for the past year and a half. The last 3 months I have been calling them daily about it. Today they finally got the message and called me back twice telling me it will be fixed next week. I hope they are correct.

Ot:

Is that a DSL connection?

225 JeffFX  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:11:22am

re: #132 FriarsTale

alls i did was click a button, there to be clicked

So did seven LGFers (to your post). I come and go like a cat, but this is a community where people say hello, goodbye, and let their friends know that they're leaving but will be back later.

226 tradewind  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:11:45am

re: #220 Walter L. Newton
Not the time or the inclination, and if it'll make you feel better, I certainly can't prove it. Just the mutterings, but certainly not from right-wing sources.

227 [deleted]  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:11:57am
228 gehazi  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:12:21am

re: #200 NJDhockeyfan

It seems like it was approved by members of both parties. Either you think Democrats don't read the Bible or you are just posting lies to appear like you know what you are talking about. Either way you are again a lying putz!

It's pretty clear that both Republicans and Democrats bear responsibility for this tragic chapter of our history.

But one group of people came up with the program, and the other passively accepted it. There's blame all around, but not (in my mind) equal shares.

229 Gus  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:13:00am

re: #227 NJDhockeyfan

You are a proven liar here.

What? According to who?

230 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:14:12am

re: #211 tradewind

Anyone who thinks that this administration hasn't been shipping folks off to Egypt or other parts unknown for interrogation that makes waterboarding look like a case of the sniffles is delusional.

It's also the reason why Obama has a higher kill rate in Afghanistan. Unless they have actionable intelligence it's just more expedient to kill them outright. Those who are taken into custody are reported killed and will never be seen again.
It'll be interesting to see what Obama does if we capture a high profile prisoner like Adam Gadahn or that dude in Yemen (whose name I forget).

231 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:14:16am

re: #227 NJDhockeyfan

You are a proven liar here. I don't trust anything you post.

But you knew that already.

I've never lied about anything Puck. Much like the Rodent, you like to repeat untruths when cornered. Do you really think that the words of a deluded rasha like you hurt my feelings?

Lets keep you focussed.

If you believe torture is just fine, you are evil.

If you believe this wasn't torture, you are both, deluded and stupid as well as evil.

If you think that this is what American values or ideals are, you anti-American as well as deluded, stupid and evil.

If you think it works or serves some benefit, when Eisenhower, MacArthur, Patton, Grant and the UCMJ say otherwise, because somehow you know better, you are arrogant, as well as anti-American, deluded, stupid and evil.

232 [deleted]  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:14:28am
233 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:14:29am

re: #224 Walter L. Newton

Ot:

Is that a DSL connection?

I have a router plugged into the wall. It sends their internet signal through the power lines. It's a great idea but it hasn't been working for me. They called me last week and gave us 2 months of free service because if the daily phone calls they've been receiving from me.

234 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:15:01am

re: #204 cliffster

And there is that one person in every thousand or so that actually thinks at that level.

I don't think that's at all true. I think that's simply your perception of it.

It's just a valve through which people can let their bush-hating fumes escape. People waving their signs saying, "Bush the torturer" with swastikas on Bush's forehead are not really interested in nuance.

But why are you talking about them? I do think that Bush ordered torture. I'm not going to wave a sign that said that, but I'm saying very distinctly that Bush ordered torture. Why is that a "bush-hating" thing to say?

One of my heroes, Chuck Yaeger, admitted in his autobiography to committing war crimes in WWII. He wasn't happy about it; the specific crimes were full-engagement orders, which he followed-- in other words, if something on the ground was moving, he strafed it. It might be a military squad. It might be a civilian. Whatever it was, he shot it. He's very clear that he considered this a war crime, and that he participated in it. Why he followed those orders, why he participated, he has not fully explained, beyond the concept that war had, by that point, become total, that there was no real civilian/military distinction.

War crimes is a large and varied subject, and it's very, very distinct from the argument over whether Bush was right to order torture.

He was not right; torture is both an incredibly stupid interrogation tactic, a violation of basic human rights, a violation of our Constitution-- which we say holds true for all men, being based on the rights of man-- and a violation of what Americans have held to be true about water-boarding since we encountered it.

I think it is probably the most shameful action that Bush took during his administration. An unnecessary cruelty that harmed the US more than it helped.

I think you are ignoring one of the main arguments about torture-- that it was an unnecessary evil-- when you focus on the enmity directed by the most vocal against Bush.

235 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:15:14am

re: #230 Killgore Trout

Awalki? Something like that.

236 [deleted]  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:16:18am
237 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:16:24am

re: #228 gehazi

It's pretty clear that both Republicans and Democrats bear responsibility for this tragic chapter of our history.

But one group of people came up with the program, and the other passively accepted it. There's blame all around, but not (in my mind) equal shares.

One side defends it vigorously as a good thing, and the others group had many members who did not accept it passively.

In either case, it is a distraction to the discussion to even bring up.

Waterboarding is torture.

Torture gives no military benefit - which is why all civilized militaries forbid it.

Wanting it done is only out of the most base and vile impulses.

238 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:16:27am

re: #235 Cannadian Club Akbar

Awalki? Something like that.

Awalaki. PIMF. (still didn't spell that proper)

239 cliffster  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:16:32am

re: #218 tradewind

After 9-11, how many times in the nearly eight years were we victimized by terrorists in the states?
And what's the score card now... after only two years...

eh, I don't know that you can really connect those dots, at least not yet.

240 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:16:49am

re: #217 bloodstar

I had a daydream that the new Governor would start at the Geographic center of our state and divide the voting precincts by census population figures only. Ain't gonna happen.

Even in a relatively politically homogenious part of our state we had people passing three polling places to get to the one for their precinct.

Perhaps California taking the districting and placing it into a non-partisam citizens board is a new hope.

241 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:17:16am

re: #233 NJDhockeyfan

I have a router plugged into the wall. It sends their internet signal through the power lines. It's a great idea but it hasn't been working for me. They called me last week and gave us 2 months of free service because if the daily phone calls they've been receiving from me.

I have experience with them... most important thing, make sure the router is not plugged into a power strip or a UPS... other items on the power strip can break up the signal. Actually, other items on the house circuits can do that too...

242 [deleted]  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:17:23am
243 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:17:39am

re: #230 Killgore Trout

It's also the reason why Obama has a higher kill rate in Afghanistan. Unless they have actionable intelligence it's just more expedient to kill them outright. Those who are taken into custody are reported killed and will never be seen again.
It'll be interesting to see what Obama does if we capture a high profile prisoner like Adam Gadahn or that dude in Yemen (whose name I forget).

The "no waterboarding!" rule is elastic.

244 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:17:42am

re: #235 Cannadian Club Akbar

Awalki? Something like that.

This guy:

YouTube took down numerous videos Wednesday featuring Anwar al-Awlaki, a radical Yemen-based cleric whom the U.S. government has targeted for assassination.

U.S. and British officials have recently been applying pressure on YouTube to remove al-Awlaki's videotaped calls for jihad against the West. The New York Times reports that the requests "took on greater urgency" after Friday's discovery of bombs on two Chicago-bound cargo planes from Yemen -- "with the prime suspect being the Yemen-based group Mr. Awlaki is affiliated with, Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula."

But well before last week's episode, government officials had been calling on YouTube to remove videos of al-Awlaki, who was born in New Mexico and speaks fluent English, and thus can reach Westerners.

[...]

245 Gus  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:17:47am

re: #242 NJDhockeyfan

He must be off his meds today.

Knock it off.

246 ihateronpaul  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:18:12am

how is our country able to claim the moral high ground when it tortures?
it isn't.

247 tradewind  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:18:22am

re: #239 cliffster
It's certainly not a full card, since we're halfway through one term.
Here's hoping there won't be any more marks on it.

248 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:18:39am

re: #244 wrenchwench

Thanks. I knew I was close.

249 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:18:40am

re: #241 Walter L. Newton

I have experience with them... most important thing, make sure the router is not plugged into a power strip or a UPS... other items on the power strip can break up the signal. Actually, other items on the house circuits can do that too...

Yeah, they told me about that. I have it plugged in an outlet all by itself. They keep seeing the problem every time I call.

250 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:18:43am

re: #232 tradewind

I just get a kick sometimes out of the manner in which he lavishes extreme quantities of verbal hate on people he deems to be haters.//

Believe it or not you are supposed to hate evil. This is evil. He is defending evil - and so are you by extension.

251 tradewind  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:18:57am

re: #246 ihateronpaul
I don't see a lot of claiming the high ground lately. Lots of apologizing, though.

252 theheat  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:19:03am

re: #175 RogueOne

I had it bookmarked... I can't find it. It was in response to Boehner and Lamar Smith. Now when I try to find it via Google, I'm being swamped with the same video over and over, and that's not the news page I found it on.

253 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:19:05am

re: #223 tradewind

Mediaite is just as likely to slam Fox news as promote it...

No, they really are not. But I understand why you'd like to pretend they are.

254 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:19:11am

re: #239 cliffster

We were also victimized by terrorist multiple times in those 8 years.

Anthrax
DC Sniper
The shoe bomber
The LAX shooting
The UNC campus attack

Not to mention 9/11.

255 JeffFX  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:19:21am

re: #160 RogueOne

I disagree that it's torture but my side of the debate lost. I can live with that, the system worked how it was intended.

BUT, waterboarding still isn't "illegal". The obama ban will last as long as he doesn't change his mind. See how that works? If they managed to pick up Osama all it would take is an OK from the pres to waterboard him.

If you haven't yet, you should have yourself waterboarded. I think your disagreement would disappear if you did. It's pretty out-there to be for using torture to make people think they're going to die, when we know tortured people say whatever you want to hear.

Calling it something else doesn't change the situation, it's just a way that Republicans have tried to mislead us into thinking torture is OK. These are evil people, and you shouldn't let them mislead you.

256 gehazi  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:19:27am

re: #237 LudwigVanQuixote

Oh I agree. Best to forget about the broad-brush entirely. It's not as if every single member of the Republican caucus is culpable for breaking international law.

And yes, regardless of who is ultimately to blame (to figure that out we'd need to have a trial), torture is immoral, illegal, stupid, and evil.

257 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:20:44am

re: #254 Obdicut

We were also victimized by terrorist multiple times in those 8 years.

Anthrax
DC Sniper
The shoe bomber
The LAX shooting
The UNC campus attack

Not to mention 9/11.

2 Marines shot at a recruiting place.
The shooter at Ft. Hood.

258 tradewind  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:21:07am

re: #250 LudwigVanQuixote
You're actually not supposed to judge, either, lest......
well, you know the rest.
It seems that there's an awful lot of certainty of evil when sometimes what's being judged is open to personal opinion. Blanket statements that ' Republicans are evil scum ' don't really change many minds.

259 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:21:30am

re: #257 Cannadian Club Akbar

Fort hood happened under Obama, not Bush, as did, I believe, the recruitment shooting.

260 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:21:33am

re: #257 Cannadian Club Akbar

2 Marines shot at a recruiting place.
The shooter at Ft. Hood.

Don't forget all the military buildings being shot at the last few months.

Those have to be Islamic terrorists, right? ;)

261 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:22:22am

re: #259 Obdicut

Fort hood happened under Obama, not Bush, as did, I believe, the recruitment shooting.

I thought we were talking in general. My bad.

262 tradewind  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:23:06am

re: #253 Charles
I guess the article stands by itself re the coverage.... it's hard to argue that CNN and Fox both hosted a diverse panel, with liberals and conservatives discussing the results, while MSNBC stuck with the home team.

263 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:23:17am

re: #258 tradewind

You're actually not supposed to judge, either, lest...
well, you know the rest.
It seems that there's an awful lot of certainty of evil when sometimes what's being judged is open to personal opinion. Blanket statements that ' Republicans are evil scum ' don't really change many minds.

Er... that's Greek scriptures... not Hebrew.

264 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:23:21am

re: #260 bloodstar

Don't forget all the military buildings being shot at the last few months.

Those have to be Islamic terrorists, right? ;)

And the fat chick I met on Eharmony who told me she weighed 105 pounds.
/

265 MurphysMom  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:23:22am

re: #255 JeffFX

Getting a confession is not the point of waterboarding, it's to soften the person up so that the next time he's interrogated more information will be forthcoming. And the information is cross checked to avoid following false leads.

My son's been waterboarded. He didn't enjoy it, but he was ok afterwards. That's about all he can say about it.

266 cliffster  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:23:30am

re: #254 Obdicut

We were also victimized by terrorist multiple times in those 8 years.

Anthrax
DC Sniper
The shoe bomber
The LAX shooting
The UNC campus attack

Not to mention 9/11.

Well, I don't think most of those count for the purposes of the conversation at all - there was no connection with any network was there? Just a some crazy dudes working alone. Who would you torture to find out about them? Shoe bomber being a different story.

One interesting thing - when there are foiled attempts, we probably never know about them. And that's the way it should be. Bush might have stopped 100 attacks, never to be seen by us. Same goes for Obama.

267 gehazi  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:23:47am

re: #258 tradewind

He didn't say Republicans were evil; he said people who believe torture is fine are evil.

There's still a difference between those two groups of people (I hope.)

268 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:23:54am

re: #257 Cannadian Club Akbar

2 Marines shot at a recruiting place.
The shooter at Ft. Hood.

24x7 Paris Hilton coverage
Real Housewives franchise
The Jersey Shore

//

269 cliffster  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:23:54am

re: #247 tradewind


Here's hoping there won't be any more marks on it.

Agreed.

270 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:24:31am

re: #261 Cannadian Club Akbar

No problem. I'm really surprised that the foolish meme that there weren't any terrorist attacks under Bush is still being floated, after Guiliani got his ass kicked so thoroughly for it.

Terrorism is extremely, extremely hard to defend against. Except in cases of clear dereliction of duty, I'm never going to blame an executive for not foiling a terrorist attack. We will always be vulnerable to such attacks.

271 cliffster  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:24:40am

BBL

272 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:24:53am

re: #268 DaddyG

Funny as hell, that.

273 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:24:54am

re: #260 bloodstar

Don't forget all the military buildings being shot at the last few months.

Those have to be Islamic terrorists, right? ;)


If not a radical right wing domstic terrorist.

/ducks and runds for cover

274 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:24:55am

re: #268 DaddyG

24x7 Paris Hilton coverage
Real Housewives franchise
The Jersey Shore

//

The Kardashian sluts women.
/

275 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:24:55am

re: #268 DaddyG

24x7 Paris Hilton coverage
Real Housewives franchise
The Jersey Shore

//

The real terrorism of America....

(is there a sign for kidding on the square?)

276 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:25:02am

re: #271 cliffster

BBL

DOWN DING. (kidding)

277 tradewind  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:25:25am

re: #263 Walter L. Newton
I don't think I specified a source, but thanks, Walter!

278 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:25:37am

re: #255 JeffFX

If you haven't yet, you should have yourself waterboarded. I think your disagreement would disappear if you did. It's pretty out-there to be for using torture to make people think they're going to die, when we know tortured people say whatever you want to hear.

Calling it something else doesn't change the situation, it's just a way that Republicans have tried to mislead us into thinking torture is OK. These are evil people, and you shouldn't let them mislead you.

1. I wasn't discussing the effectiveness level, only what was deemed "legal" and who gets to decide.
2. I've never been waterboarded but I know quite a few people who have, including my brother. If it were pleasant people wouldn't think of it as torture.
3. We used it on 3 people. I don't care if all 3 thought they were going to die. I want all 3 dead as soon as they are no longer worth keeping around. All 3 are responsible for thousands of deaths, some in horrific fashion, all around the world. The quicker they leave the planet the better.

279 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:25:59am

re: #275 bloodstar

The real terrorism of America...

(is there a sign for kidding on the square?)

Kidding2.

280 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:26:31am

re: #260 bloodstar

Don't forget all the military buildings being shot at the last few months.

Those have to be Islamic terrorists, right? ;)

I think it's someone in the navy.

281 tradewind  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:27:00am

re: #267 gehazi

He didn't say Republicans were evil


Not today. There's a history.
But thanks for clarifying.

282 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:27:16am

re: #266 cliffster

Well, I don't think most of those count for the purposes of the conversation at all - there was no connection with any network was there?

We have no clue about the Anthrax, where that stemmed from.

I'm not certain why the goalposts have been moved to only attacks stemming from a network. If that's the case, doesn't Obama have a perfect record in foiling attacks?


One interesting thing - when there are foiled attempts, we probably never know about them. And that's the way it should be. Bush might have stopped 100 attacks, never to be seen by us. Same goes for Obama.

Exactly. We know about some of them, but not others.

It's a really stupid metric to attempt to use.

283 [deleted]  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:27:38am
284 tradewind  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:27:46am

re: #275 bloodstar
You forgot the death of michael jackson, but other than that, you pretty much nailed it!

285 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:27:46am

re: #270 Obdicut

As crazy as it sounds, I don't consider so much a lone gunman to be a terror attack as much as the actions of a lunatic. Even if he is very effective.

I think the Govt (including up until this minute) has been very effective at stopping groups of terrorists.

No one could ever presume to be able to stop one or two nut-jobs every time.

Only an opinion.

286 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:28:58am

re: #285 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

As crazy as it sounds, I don't consider so much a lone gunman to be a terror attack as much as the actions of a lunatic. Even if he is very effective.

I think the Govt (including up until this minute) has been very effective at stopping groups of terrorists.

No one could ever presume to be able to stop one or two nut-jobs every time.

Only an opinion.

Clock tower. Texas. Si?

287 tradewind  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:29:03am

re: #285 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I'm a little freaked out about this Semtex cargo stuff, though, since it doesn't show up on a scan. We won't always be able to depend upon the kindness ( or conscience) of strangers for a heads up.

288 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:29:55am

re: #286 Cannadian Club Akbar

Clock tower. Texas. Si?

UVA. 33 or so killed.

289 tradewind  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:30:35am

I thought they figured out the anthrax thing. I know the first guy they tried to pin it on for years turned out to be not guilty, but didn't they pretty much trace it to some lab and a dude who's dead now?

290 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:31:00am

re: #285 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sure, but often we can't know if they actually acted alone or not. The LAX gunman, we think he didn't have any ties to a cell or anything, but we're not certain.

Some lone people are obviously just crazy. Others may or may not be.

And again, I think the entire thing is a stupid metric to use. If you're facing an extremely determined and resourceful enemy, they may slip some attacks through. We're not omniscient, and we can't ever ensure 100% protection against terrorist attacks, even those that are carefully planned by a large number of people.

291 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:31:25am

re: #288 Cannadian Club Akbar

UVA. 33 or so killed.

Virginia Tech, not UVA. But, that was a crazy little fucker. Nothing terrorist about him.

292 tradewind  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:31:30am

re: #288 Cannadian Club Akbar
The Cavs would let you know they're not the Hokies in an instant, but close.
:)

293 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:32:10am

re: #258 tradewind

You're actually not supposed to judge, either, lest...
well, you know the rest.

First off, that's not my book. In fact we teach that:

"When you are merciful to those who deserve justice, you will ultimately be cruel to those who deserve mercy."

This discussion is a case in point. By not calling the evil of vengeance motivated torture for no real purpose evil, we guarantee that amongst those tortured will be slews of innocent people who were picked up in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It seems that there's an awful lot of certainty of evil when sometimes what's being judged is open to personal opinion. Blanket statements that ' Republicans are evil scum ' don't really change many minds.

As an object lesson to those who feel that misquoting Scriptures or changing clear definitions will save them, I will point out and excerpt from my post as to why Jews don't vote Republican. You see, we actually do have very strong definitions in our texts. As an example:

Let's look at Isaiah, chapter one. He, as always, speaks quite eloquently.
(I am using the Stone, Artscroll translation here i.e. a translation written by observant Jews for Jews).

"Wash yourselves purify yourselves, remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes. Learn to do good, seek justice, vindicate the victim, render justice to the orphan, take up the grievance of the widow."

We see part of this discussion quite clearly here. God is really angry at those doing evil, and says to do good instead. He then defines some good things to do, that were not being done, which had rendered people evil.

Now this is just one example. As I pointed out earlier, torture has its own injunction.

Let me please be clear, I don't mean evil as an hyperbole or an emotional debating tact. I don't mean that I personally think it is evil (though I do think so). When I write evil here, I mean that our Tradition, which has 3,000 years of discussing such things in minute detail, is very clear on what evil constitutes, and our Law, ethics and philosophy clearly, stridently and obviously calls many of the GOP planks, and many of their actions, evil.

Presumably, Christians, would use the same definitions if they actually believe in the Bible.

294 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:32:11am

re: #291 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Virginia Tech, not UVA. But, that was a crazy little fucker. Nothing terrorist about him.

re: #292 tradewind

The Cavs would let you know they're not the Hokies in an instant, but close.
:)

My bad. Don't shoot!!!

295 JeffFX  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:32:45am

re: #258 tradewind

You're actually not supposed to judge, either, lest...
well, you know the rest.
It seems that there's an awful lot of certainty of evil when sometimes what's being judged is open to personal opinion. Blanket statements that ' Republicans are evil scum ' don't really change many minds.

As moderates left the party, they became so socially conservative that they deny reality, and they're harmful to their fellow man. I call that evil, even if it's just the result of extreme ignorance, rather than political posturing.

I know plenty of sane former Republicans, and even a few sane current ones, but they're a little slow, and think the Repubs are what they were under Ike.

296 [deleted]  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:33:37am
297 tradewind  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:33:41am

re: #293 LudwigVanQuixote

Presumably, Christians, would use the same definitions if they actually believe in the Bible.


Some really clumsy snark there, but otherwise, nothing.

298 JeffFX  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:34:32am

re: #265 MurphysMom

He probably wasn't in hostile hands. It's said to be horrible by people under a friendly fake-interrogation, I'm sure it's a lot worse when you know you're in the hands of the enemy who doesn't care if you live or die.

299 Radical Rafe  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:35:05am

What is a "sock puppet"?

300 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:36:03am

re: #297 tradewind

Some really clumsy snark there, but otherwise, nothing.

Really, Isaiah is nothing? You've made your position very clear. Say no more...

But truly...

"When you are merciful to those who deserve justice, you will ultimately be cruel to those who deserve mercy."

This discussion is a case in point. By not calling the evil of vengeance motivated torture for no real purpose evil, we guarantee that amongst those tortured will be slews of innocent people who were picked up in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The fact you don't get that shows a terrible lack in your character.

301 tradewind  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:36:26am

re: #295 JeffFX
Well then, we're sooo screwed, because 678 new Republicans, unacquainted with reality, were just ushered into state legislatures across the country, nevermind the House.//

302 JeffFX  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:38:00am

re: #301 tradewind

Well then, we're sooo screwed, because 678 new Republicans, unacquainted with reality, were just ushered into state legislatures across the country, nevermind the House.//

Things took a turn for the worse for sure. We know how mid-terms usually go, so it's really not a surprise that the party of bad ideas took so many seats.

303 gehazi  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:39:01am

re: #293 LudwigVanQuixote


Presumably, Christians, would use the same definitions if they actually believe in the Bible.

Absolutely.

But there are far more people wrapped up in the politics of being a Christian than there are people bothering to read the Bible, much less be a "little Christ."

304 [deleted]  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:39:50am
305 MurphysMom  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:40:17am

Did anyone think that the authority to waterboard didn't come directly from the Commander-in-Chief? I don't see how this qualifies as being a "revelation". Did he deny it when he was in office?

Authority to shoot the Somali pirates came directly from Obama. I guess I always assumed that big decisions dealing with individuals always came from the top.

306 JeffFX  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:41:04am

re: #303 gehazi

Absolutely.

But there are far more people wrapped up in the politics of being a Christian than there are people bothering to read the Bible, much less be a "little Christ."

The Bible-believing people I know are very peaceful and certainly are against torture. They're nothing like the Conservative Christian movement, despite being Conservative and Christian.

307 gehazi  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:41:14am

re: #305 MurphysMom

I don't think he previously denied it, but I'm pretty certain he had never openly admitted it either.

308 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:41:52am

re: #305 MurphysMom

Did anyone think that the authority to waterboard didn't come directly from the Commander-in-Chief? I don't see how this qualifies as being a "revelation". Did he deny it when he was in office?

He refused to address it.

309 tigger2005  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:42:19am

The founding fathers of the U.S. clearly were under no delusion that Americans were somehow fundamentally better, nicer, more humane than other peoples. They were quite cynical about human nature. That is exactly why they created a system of checks and balances to prevent or rein in abuses of power. They never expected that as a nation we would never sin or do wrong. The difference was that we acknowledged this fact and put systems in place to keep things from raging out of control as they so often did elsewhere.

310 MurphysMom  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:46:53am

re: #298 JeffFX

I'm sure it's worse when a person's being held captive. But I think the people who were waterboarded were the type who had been informed about our interrogation techniques before they were captured. I think they knew they weren't going to die, and they especially knew it if they'd been waterboarded before. But it was unpleasant enough that eventually the next time they were interrogated, they talked.

311 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:48:47am

re: #310 MurphysMom

Did you miss the whole 138 times thingy?

Or that a lot of the information we gained was bogus?

312 JeffFX  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:51:45am

re: #310 MurphysMom

I think Obdi just totaled any argument for water-boarding with two sentences.

313 MurphysMom  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:52:24am

re: #312 JeffFX

So your problem with it is that it's not effective?

314 gehazi  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:53:22am

re: #313 MurphysMom

Read further up the thread.

It's an evil thing.

And it's not even effective anyway.

Torture is at once both evil and stupid.

315 JeffFX  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:54:05am

re: #313 MurphysMom

So your problem with it is that it's not effective?

First that it's evil, second that it's totally ineffective.

316 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:55:07am

re: #313 MurphysMom

It's an unnecessary evil.

317 celticdragon  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 10:57:28am

re: #265 MurphysMom

Getting a confession is not the point of waterboarding, it's to soften the person up so that the next time he's interrogated more information will be forthcoming. And the information is cross checked to avoid following false leads.

My son's been waterboarded. He didn't enjoy it, but he was ok afterwards. That's about all he can say about it.

Here is an article from Small Wars Journal written by an operator who actually administered waterboarding sessions in SERES training.

There is No Debate Except for Torture Apologists

1. Waterboarding is a torture technique. Period. There is no way to gloss over it or sugarcoat it. It has no justification outside of its limited role as a training demonstrator. Our service members have to learn that the will to survive requires them accept and understand that they may be subjected to torture, but that America is better than its enemies and it is one’s duty to trust in your nation and God, endure the hardships and return home with honor.

2. Waterboarding is not a simulation. Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word.

Waterboarding is a controlled drowning that, in the American model, occurs under the watch of a doctor, a psychologist, an interrogator and a trained strap-in/strap-out team. It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning. How much the victim is to drown depends on the desired result (in the form of answers to questions shouted into the victim’s face) and the obstinacy of the subject. A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs which show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience, to horrific suffocating punishment to the final death spiral.

Waterboarding is slow motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of black out and expiration –usually the person goes into hysterics on the board. For the uninitiated, it is horrifying to watch and if it goes wrong, it can lead straight to terminal hypoxia. When done right it is controlled death. Its lack of physical scarring allows the victim to recover and be threaten with its use again and again.

Call it “Chinese Water Torture,” “the Barrel,” or “the Waterfall,” it is all the same. Whether the victim is allowed to comply or not is usually left up to the interrogator. Many waterboard team members, even in training, enjoy the sadistic power of making the victim suffer and often ask questions as an after thought. These people are dangerous and predictable and when left unshackled, unsupervised or undetected they bring us the murderous abuses seen at Abu Ghraieb, Baghram and Guantanamo. No doubt, to avoid human factors like fear and guilt someone has created a one-button version that probably looks like an MRI machine with high intensity waterjets.

***********


Read the whole thing.

318 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 11:00:59am

I actually understand the impetus to defend the waterboarding of people like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. I freely admit that after 9/11 I wasn't concerned at all with the human rights of the people who attacked us, and I made light of the waterboarding issue, using the rationalization that it didn't cause permanent physical harm and therefore couldn't be classified as torture.

I now realize that I was wrong. One of the real turning points for me was when Christopher Hitchens, who was a hawk as far as the Iraq War and 9/11 and radical Islam, underwent waterboarding, was greatly affected by it, and wrote a piece unequivocally condemning it as torture. And when I started researching the history of waterboarding and its use against US troops in Vietnam and other wars, and realized that our government had no hesitation about classifying it as torture when it was used against us, I simply had to admit that I was wrong about it, and that waterboarding IS torture. It evokes a primal, uncontrollable panic reaction, and yes -- people can be permanently harmed by it, both physically and mentally.

It's torture.

You may think the use of torture can be justified in some extreme cases (I don't), and that at least is an arguable position. Wrong, but arguable.

But it's torture. At least have the honesty to admit that much.

319 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 11:03:22am

re: #318 Charles

I actually understand the impetus to defend the waterboarding of people like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. I freely admit that after 9/11 I wasn't concerned at all with the human rights of the people who attacked us, and I made light of the waterboarding issue, using the rationalization that it didn't cause permanent physical harm and therefore couldn't be classified as torture.

I now realize that I was wrong. One of the real turning points for me was when Christopher Hitchens, who was a hawk as far as the Iraq War and 9/11 and radical Islam, underwent waterboarding, was greatly affected by it, and wrote a piece unequivocally condemning it as torture. And when I started researching the history of waterboarding and its use against US troops in Vietnam and other wars, and realized that our government had no hesitation about classifying it as torture when it was used against us, I simply had to admit that I was wrong about it, and that waterboarding IS torture. It evokes a primal, uncontrollable panic reaction, and yes -- people can be permanently harmed by it, both physically and mentally.

It's torture.

You may think the use of torture can be justified in some extreme cases (I don't), and that at least is an arguable position. Wrong, but arguable.

But it's torture. At least have the honesty to admit that much.

You are a very good man.

320 JeffFX  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 11:06:48am

re: #319 LudwigVanQuixote

I'm very glad to have Charles on the pro-human-rights side in these debates. He conveys his thoughts extremely well, which is the only extreme thing about this place.

321 celticdragon  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 11:11:10am

re: #318 Charles

Thank you.

322 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 11:13:51am

re: #320 JeffFX

I'm very glad to have Charles on the pro-human-rights side in these debates. He conveys his thoughts extremely well, which is the only extreme thing about this place.

It also takes a lot of courage for him to write something like that. He's a mensch on a lot of deep levels.

323 sagehen  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 11:15:09am

re: #117 RogueOne

On u.s. citizens. You passed the part where treatment of enemy detainees is left to our president and congress...

No, you missed the part where any treaty we ratify is considered U.S. Law, and we're signatory to the Geneva Conventions.

324 MurphysMom  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 11:18:07am

re: #315 JeffFX

I don't believe it was totally ineffective, and as such, you have to weigh the effectiveness against what it "does to us" as a society. There's a reason "war is hell" is an old saying. I'm under no illusions that by stopping waterboarding our men and women would be treated better by their captors.

I understand that when my son was waterboarded he was in friendly hands, so his experience was different than that of the people we capture. But I think that some of the civilians who've subjected themselves to waterboarding to find out what it's like are the kind of people who haven't been . . . and I'm not sure how to put this . . . toughened up by life in the field. I suspect some of them would consider sleeping on the ground to be torture.

325 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 11:20:51am

re: #324 MurphysMom

But I think that some of the civilians who've subjected themselves to waterboarding to find out what it's like are the kind of people who haven't been . . . and I'm not sure how to put this . . . toughened up by life in the field. I suspect some of them would consider sleeping on the ground to be torture.

Such as whom?

326 MurphysMom  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 11:28:12am

re: #325 Obdicut

When the controversy began, I remember reading articles about college students and some reporters who were subjecting themselves to waterboarding to get a feel for the experience. And I don't believe Hitchens ever served in the military.

327 celticdragon  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 11:29:07am

re: #324 MurphysMom

I understand that when my son was waterboarded he was in friendly hands, so his experience was different than that of the people we capture.

I suppose that is a start.

328 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 11:32:28am

re: #326 MurphysMom

Why do you think that these people would consider sleeping on the ground a hardship?

329 celticdragon  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 11:34:07am

re: #326 MurphysMom

When the controversy began, I remember reading articles about college students and some reporters who were subjecting themselves to waterboarding to get a feel for the experience. And I don't believe Hitchens ever served in the military.


Funny how they all thought is was pretty frakking horrible

Read the bit I posted above from a trained SERES school waterboard trainer.

Here is some more:Next up is saran wrap. The idea is that you wrap saran wrap around the mouth in several layers, and poke a hole in the mouth area, and then waterboard away. I didn't reall see how this was an improvement on the rag technique, and so far I would categorize waterboarding as simply unpleasant rather than torture, but I've come this far so I might as well go on.

Now, those of you who know me will know that I am both enamored of my own toughness and prone to hyperbole. The former, I feel that I am justifiably proud of. The latter may be a truth in many cases, but this is the simple fact:

It took me ten minutes to recover my senses once I tried this. I was shuddering in a corner, convinced I narrowly escaped killing myself.
Here's what happened:

The water fills the hole in the saran wrap so that there is either water or vaccum in your mouth. The water pours into your sinuses and throat. You struggle to expel water periodically by building enough pressure in your lungs. With the saran wrap though each time I expelled water, I was able to draw in less air. Finally the lungs can no longer expel water and you begin to draw it up into your respiratory tract.

It seems that there is a point that is hardwired in us. When we draw water into our respiratory tract to this point we are no longer in control. All hell breaks loose. Instinct tells us we are dying.

I have never been more panicked in my whole life. Once your lungs are empty and collapsed and they start to draw fluid it is simply all over. You know you are dead and it's too late. Involuntary and total panic.

There is absolutely nothing you can do about it. It would be like telling you not to blink while I stuck a hot needle in your eye.

At the time my lungs emptied and I began to draw water, I would have sold my children to escape. There was no choice, or chance, and willpower was not involved.
I never felt anything like it, and this was self-inflicted with a watering can, where I was in total control and never in any danger.

And I understood.

Waterboarding gets you to the point where you draw water up your respiratory tract triggering the drowning reflex. Once that happens, it's all over. No question.

Some may go easy without a rag, some may need a rag, some may need saran wrap.

Once you are there it's all over.

I didn't allow anybody else to try it on me. Inconceivable. I know I only got the barest taste of what it's about since I was in control, and not restrained and controlling the flow of water.

But there's no chance. No chance at all.

So, is it torture?

I'll put it this way. If I had the choice of being waterboarded by a third party or having my fingers smashed one at a time by a sledgehammer, I'd take the fingers, no question.
It's horrible, terrible, inhuman torture. I can hardly imagine worse. I'd prefer permanent damage and disability to experiencing it again. I'd give up anything, say anything, do anything.

The Spanish Inquisition knew this. It was one of their favorite methods.
It's torture. No question. Terrible terrible torture. To experience it and understand it and then do it to another human being is to leave the realm of sanity and humanity forever. No question in my mind.

330 MurphysMom  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 11:34:46am

re: #328 Obdicut

I've met college students :)

331 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 11:35:58am

re: #330 MurphysMom

I've met college students :)

Please don't be fatuous.

I was a college student. I slept on the ground rather frequently during that time period. I was rather inured to a lot of physical discomforts. So were many of my friends.

Why do you think Christopher Hitchens would consider sleeping on the ground torture?

332 sagehen  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 11:42:42am

re: #266 cliffster

One interesting thing - when there are foiled attempts, we probably never know about them. And that's the way it should be. Bush might have stopped 100 attacks, never to be seen by us. Same goes for Obama.

oh, please. Bush held whole press conferences to talk about foiled attacks. Like the "Liberty Tower" (which is actually the Library Tower) that KSM supposedly told them about... except that plot was stopped more than a year before KSM was in our custody.

And, y'know, it seems a little churlish to only care about terrorist attacks on our own soil and crow that it was our allies who took it instead. London. Madrid. Bali.

333 sagehen  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 11:45:25am

re: #278 RogueOne

3. We used it on 3 people. I don't care if all 3 thought they were going to die. I want all 3 dead as soon as they are no longer worth keeping around. All 3 are responsible for thousands of deaths, some in horrific fashion, all around the world. The quicker they leave the planet the better.

I'd feel a lot more comfortable about that assertion if there'd ever been, like, a trial or something. Evidence, testimony, a verdict, that sort of thing.

334 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 11:45:35am

re: #115 FriarsTale

it's not like this is a skype chat and u have to say "Be Back Later"
theses are posts that stay here forever

BBL?
who cares?

LOL, seriously? You down-dinged me for saying BBL?

Oh, the injustice of it all! Now I has a sad. *sniffle*

BBL!

335 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 11:47:34am

re: #334 CuriousLurker

BBL!

Provocateur!

336 Sinistershade  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 11:50:07am

I'm at a complete loss to understand how waterboarding can be considered anything but a crime. In 1994, the U.S. Senate ratified the U. N. Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. That makes it the supreme law of the land in the U.S.

Under this treaty, torture is defined as:

. . . any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.

I do not see how waterboarding does not meet that standard.

Also under this treaty, we are obligated to investigate allegations of torture and prosecute cases where the evidence indicate torture was performed.

It doesn't matter whether the torture was effective. It doesn't matter whether the individuals were enemy combatants that some courts have found not to be covered by the U. S. Constitution. It doesn't matter who those tortured were, how or where they were captured, what crimes they had committed, or what information they might have possessed. Under our law, we are obligated to investigate and prosecute cases of torture committed in the U.S. or by U.S. nationals. Full stop.

And we haven't.

337 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 11:50:20am

Lest anyone be offended, I use BBL when forced to disengage afterI have been doing a running exchange with one or more Lizards. As in:

BBL

338 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 11:55:34am

re: #317 celticdragon

Excellent post. However, people like Fox listeners "know" better. Such people make me sick. The arrogance, stupidity and casual justification of brutality, coupled with that self righteous smirking sense of superiority when they gloat over evil things, sickens me.

People don't take the time to really consider that they are talking about evil, and that those of us who get it are not "just debating."

339 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 11:56:29am

re: #335 wrenchwench

Provocateur!

She can provoke with the best of them!

340 celticdragon  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 11:57:14am

re: #338 LudwigVanQuixote

Excellent post. However, people like Fox listeners "know" better. Such people make me sick. The arrogance, stupidity and casual justification of brutality, coupled with that self righteous smirking sense of superiority when they gloat over evil things, sickens me.

People don't take the time to really consider that they are talking about evil, and that those of us who get it are not "just debating."

Indeed. This is one subject I get passionate about

341 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 11:59:18am

Miserable President. Torture is tortue, idiot.

342 Quant  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 12:14:19pm

re: #42 Gus 802

... You do also realize that this was also considered torture by the Americans as recently as the Vietnam War?


More recently than that:

Past Waterboarding Cases
(.pdf file)

In 1983, James Parker (Texas Sheriff for San Jacinto County) and three of his deputies were charged by the Department of Justice with committing torture because of their use of water torture on prisoners. The four were convicted of “water torture,” which was upheld on appeal. They were sentenced to 10 years each. The case name was United States v. Parker et al.

In the indictment the officers were charged with subjecting prisoners to “a suffocating ‘water torture’ ordeal in order to coerce confessions. This generally included placement of a towel over the nose and mouth of the prisoner and the pouring of water in the towel until the prisoner began to move, jerk, or otherwise indicate that he was suffocating and/or drowning.”

Sheriff Parker & three deputies were convicted of “water torture.” The conviction was upheld on appeal (United States of America, Plaintiff-Appellee, v. Carl Lee, Defendant-Appellant)

Note that the Reagan DOJ prosecuted this case while Bush was Governor of Texas.

343 Quant  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 12:18:19pm

re: #17 LudwigVanQuixote

There is one other thing to add to why Jews don't vote Republican, and why Jewish Law would consider the current GOP to be evil.

In a Beit Din (Jewish court) confessions are not admissible. This is something much like the 5th Amendment.

The reasons behind it are the same - to prevent authorities from extracting a confession through torture.

That way the state can not put on a show trial where someone confessed to just make the pain stop.


That is very interesting. I did not know that.

344 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 12:18:57pm

re: #10 NJDhockeyfan

I wonder how many lives were saved with the information received from
waterboarding those terrorist saps?

I wonder how many lives were lost due to the kind of crap information that torture often elicits.

345 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 12:19:36pm

re: #14 celticdragon

He has admitted to authorizing an act that we executed Japanese war criminals for.

Stalin is smiling somewhere in hell.

But the Japanese were BAD. Makes all the difference.

//

346 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 12:20:33pm

re: #19 DaddyG

Even as bad as we got during the early years on the war on terror we never got into the same league as the Japanese and Germains we executed for war crimes.

Given their high point, we should feel damn grateful, and work to keep it that way.

347 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 12:21:44pm

re: #31 theheat

Do you think we'll ever know, any more than we'll know how many may have been saved? We're treated like children. We're supposed to go along with this because supposedly we're being saved. It might be easier to accept if we knew we were saved.

We can't handle the truth. At least, they really want us to think we can't handle the truth.

348 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 12:24:14pm

re: #21 celticdragon

We got a lot of useless confessions and chased dead ends.

Torture is never about learning the truth It is about vengeance and forcing confessions. The vicitim will tell the torturer anything he wants to hear, including how he had sex with his dead grandmother last night in the prison cell if the victim thinks that is what the torturer wants him to say.

Given the remarkable confessions torture produced in a number of well-recorded witch trials, I think we can say without any doubt that torture doesn't elicit the truth, particularly. Unless you believe in the Devil allowing women to fly through the air in exchange for their souls.

349 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 12:28:23pm

re: #62 cliffster

haha, bush and his band of revolutionary war criminal republicans

Yeah, pretty much.

350 Quant  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 12:28:45pm

re: #342 Quant

Sorry, Gus. I've just noticed that your Washington Post link refers to the 1983 Sheriff's case.

I usually take so long to catch up with reading older threads that the thread is long dead before I get a chance to reply. This time I jumped in with out reading the second page of your link.

351 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 12:28:50pm

re: #64 Walter L. Newton

And unfortunately, I suspect that, when push comes to shove, we can't be sure that our government wouldn't do it again.

I'm quite sure we will. Eternal vigilance is the price of not screwing up badly.

352 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 1:11:10pm

re: #180 Killgore Trout

Sort of but not really. I think it's a mistake to assume aggressive interrogations aren't still going on today. What Bush was trying to do is bring some level of transparency to issues like detainees (GITMO) and even extraordinary renditions were done with a certain level of public knowledge. It was an interesting legal experiment which didn't really work. What we are seeing under Obama is a return to the status quo. CIA black sites are really black, we never hear of them. Rendition flights are really done secretly again. Newspapers aren't interviewing the newest additions to Gitmo. It's all done under the table.

This is the most absurd and naive thing I have ever seen you write. Seriously? "some level of transparency", in secret courts, closed to the public? That's about as transparent as a 2 inch thick steel plate.

I want some of what you are smoking.

353 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 4, 2010 1:52:55pm

re: #115 FriarsTale

it's not like this is a skype chat and u have to say "Be Back Later"
theses are posts that stay here forever

BBL?
who cares?

A word to the unwise: everyone who posts here have their own standards for downdinging and updinging, however,if you go around downdinging people for saying BBL, you may find yourself generally unpopular for a fairly silly principle to hold.

354 ihateronpaul  Fri, Nov 5, 2010 3:34:02pm

re: #251 tradewind

I don't see a lot of claiming the high ground lately. Lots of apologizing, though.

go back to the glenn beck forums where you belong


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