Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer’s EDL Allies Condemned by Union of Jewish Students

World • Views: 24,533

As I’ve noted many times at LGF, anti-Muslim bloggers Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer are both big boosters of the violent British xenophobic gang called the English Defence League. One of their often-repeated excuses for supporting this group is that they are “pro-Israel.”

They rely on Americans’ general ignorance of UK issues to conceal the fact that the English Defence League is only “pro-Israel” to provide cover for their anti-Muslim activities. Indeed, many of the founders and members of the EDL are outright Nazis, and it’s ludicrous and foolish to take their “support” of Israel at face value. But Geller and Spencer turn a blind eye to their ally’s overt fascism, because for them it’s all about hating Muslims, and they’ll jump in bed with anyone who meets this simple criteria.

Now the Union of Jewish Students has launched a website to stand up against the EDL’s violence and hatred: Not In Our Name - Jews Against The EDL.

The Jewish community has always been at the forefront of anti-fascism.

From Cable Street to defeating the BNP at the ballot box, we have been unafraid to speak out against those who seek to spread fear and hatred in our communities.

Now our community faces a new threat. The English Defence League claim to be our allies in the fight against extremism. In reality, they are violent racists with BNP members and Nazi sympathisers amongst their ranks.

It is time for the Jewish community to come together as one to expose the EDL as the racist thugs they are.

Expect Geller to respond with one of her foaming rants about “Jewicidal Jewhadis.” But people are on to Geller and Spencer and their thuggish fascist allies, and the days of covering it up with venomous attacks on critics are over.

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209 comments
1 engineer cat  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:12:10am

curiously, it seems that rioting in favor of the forced expulsion of innocent people merely because you don't like them is not exactly in line with jewish law

2 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:13:10am

SUPPORTERS


Board of Deputies of British Jews

Britain-Israel Parliamentary Group

Community Security Trust

Embassy of Israel

Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland


It's very telling that even the Israeli embassy doesn't want the support of these people.

3 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:15:55am

The EDL drops their mask way too often to fool most Jews.

4 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:18:03am

re: #1 engineer dog

curiously, it seems that rioting in favor of the forced expulsion of innocent people merely because you don't like them is not exactly in line with jewish law

People who are in favor of forced expulsion apparently think it's like moving, like normal people do.

It's not. It's becoming a refugee, with all the attendant suffering, and often death.

5 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:20:18am

re: #2 Killgore Trout

SUPPORTERS


It's very telling that even the Israeli embassy doesn't want the support of these people.

Well, you know what Geller will will have to say about those Israelis:

Self hating Jew bastards.

6 SpaceJesus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:22:10am

Because I can't find any Nazi's to curb-stomp on this veterans day in remembrance of my grandfathers, I'll settle for any random EDL wanker.

7 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:23:32am

Why I helped organised ‘Jews against EDL’ this Sunday (by Siobhan Schwartzberg)

On Sunday the English Defence League mobilised outside the Israeli embassy for a rally in support of Israel with the guest speaker being Rabbi Nachum Shifren of The Tea Party, USA.

When I found out about the rally, which I was told was organised by the small but particularly vocal Jewish division of the EDL, I was fuming.

I felt there had to be a counter demonstration. So a few friends and I started organised one.

The EDL said of the event “we sympathise with what Israel are going through, it’s the only country in the west that is tackling the issues we highlight” They go on to say…“our fore-fathers fought a Nazi regime and won to protect our god given human rights, we cannot allow such fascist ideologies try to rule our streets once again using the same racist tactics”

The EDL dare to use the language of anti-Fascism to legitimise their political agenda. Speaking as a Jewish person, the idea that they would attack minorities and say they are doing it in part to protect and honor Jewish history is obscene.

[snip]

Secondly it’s the relationship between the far-right racism towards Muslims and the propaganda used by Israel to justify the oppression of Palestinians. This is a relationship the EDL have been quick to capitalise on.

[Link: liberalconspiracy.org...]

8 Merryweather  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:24:25am

re: #2 Killgore Trout

SUPPORTERS


It's very telling that even the Israeli embassy doesn't want the support of these people.


Geller will now come up with a way to explain how Israel hates Jews, as we've seen so many times that her mind is unaffected by 'logic' that would make a sane person's head explode.

9 SpaceJesus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:31:18am

Does the EDL think toothpaste is a Muslim conspiracy

10 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:32:19am

re: #8 Merryweather

Geller will now come up with a way to explain how Israel hates Jews, as we've seen so many times that her mind is unaffected by 'logic' that would make a sane person's head explode.

People like Geller have no respect for Israelis, they're just poster children for terror's victims.

11 lawhawk  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:32:30am

re: #9 SpaceJesus

Just the fluoride... it gets in the way of the bodily fluids...

12 Big Steve  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:32:42am

re: #9 SpaceJesus

Does the EDL think toothpaste is a Muslim conspiracy

Pam must think that spellchecker is a muslim conspiracy.

13 lawhawk  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:33:43am

re: #10 SanFranciscoZionist

Israel has dealt with the likes of Geller before. Hers is a mindset that was pervasive among supporters of Kahane and his political organizations Kach or Kahane-Chai, both of which were outlawed by Israel for being racist/violent organizations.

14 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:35:09am

I have posted this before. In 2009, the head of the LDS church gave a talk and recounted the story of a woman who was forcably expelled from East Germany and told to move to West Germany at the close of WWII.

The story is just after the inset quote in this talk. I'll warn you now, it's a tough read. My point is to show what forced expulsion is actually like.

[Link: lds.org...]

15 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:36:17am

English Defence League demonstrators could head to east London following clashes with Muslims Against Crusades group

Following Remembrance Day clashes between the Muslims Against Crusades (MAC) and the English Defence League (EDL) protest groups in Kensington this morning, it has been reported that demonstrators may now head to east London.

16 albusteve  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:38:41am

re: #15 Killgore Trout

English Defence League demonstrators could head to east London following clashes with Muslims Against Crusades group

East London, the highest density of glass and parked cars....brilliant!

17 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:44:34am

Remember this horrific video?
EDL attacking Big John's in Leicester 09/10/10


Here's an update...
EDL members who attacked a restaurant have been found on facebook bragging about there bravery

18 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:46:42am

Here is another article by Siobhan Schwartzberg, one of the founders of "Jews Against the EDL." from his blog...


Israel’s new loyalty oath

11 OCT
The Israeli cabinet have approved a new loyalty oath by 22 votes to 8. The oath now contains a pledge of allegiance to a ‘Jewish and democratic state’.

The addition of this new pledge signals an attempt by the Israeli government to use legislation to separate those who are Jewish and those who are not. Jews already get automatic citizenship under the Law of Return.

At such a period it will surely and rightly concern those who want peace between Arabs and Israelis.

The Minister of Welfare and Social services Isaac Herzog said the move “borders on Fascism” and that “Fascism was devouring the fringes of society”.

Clearly members of the Israeli parliament are worried about racism within the government, one wonders what will be done to truly challenge it.

[Link: siobhanschwartzberg.wordpress.com...]

He doesn't sound like a real friend of Israel.

19 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:46:52am

re: #17 Killgore Trout

Remember this horrific video?
EDL attacking Big John's in Leicester 09/10/10

[Video]

Yeah, it takes a big man to smash the windows of a chipper.

20 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:48:40am

re: #18 Walter L. Newton

Here is another article by Siobhan Schwartzberg, one of the founders of "Jews Against the EDL." from his blog...

[Link: siobhanschwartzberg.wordpress.com...]

He doesn't sound like a real friend of Israel.

Siobhan is probably a girl. Does opposition to the loyalty oath mean one does not wish Israel well? Many of my Zionist activist buddies don't like it either.

Haven't seen the rest of her site. Is it problematic?

21 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:48:58am

re: #19 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah, it takes a big man to smash the windows of a chipper.

If you click over to youtube and watch in fullscreen you can read their comments better. They are quite proud of themselves.

22 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:49:05am

re: #18 Walter L. Newton

Here is another article by Siobhan Schwartzberg, one of the founders of "Jews Against the EDL." from his blog...

[Link: siobhanschwartzberg.wordpress.com...]

He doesn't sound like a real friend of Israel.

Yeah, she should just keep her mouth shut right?

23 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:50:07am

re: #20 SanFranciscoZionist

Siobhan is probably a girl. Does opposition to the loyalty oath mean one does not wish Israel well? Many of my Zionist activist buddies don't like it either.

Haven't seen the rest of her site. Is it problematic?

Did you see the article I linked to above? re: #7 Walter L. Newton

24 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:51:31am

re: #20 SanFranciscoZionist

Siobhan is probably a girl. Does opposition to the loyalty oath mean one does not wish Israel well? Many of my Zionist activist buddies don't like it either.

Haven't seen the rest of her site. Is it problematic?

You know how it goes. The "real Americans" meme is not unlike the "real Jews" and "real Israelis" memes.

25 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:52:01am

re: #18 Walter L. Newton

He doesn't sound like a real friend of Israel.

Who, Isaac Herzog, Israeli Minister of Welfare and Social Services?

You seriously think he's an enemy of Israel?

26 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:52:02am

re: #22 Gus 802

Yeah, she should just keep her mouth shut right?

Where did I say she should? But looking over her writings, articles at her site and other sites, and the kind of blogs she links to... my first guess would be that she is very pro-Palestinian... just an observation.

Why?

27 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:52:43am

re: #25 Obdicut

Who, Isaac Herzog, Israeli Minister of Welfare and Social Services?

You seriously think he's an enemy of Israel?

I was speaking of Siobhan Schwartzberg, one of the founders of "Jews Against the EDL."

28 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:53:04am

re: #23 Walter L. Newton

Did you see the article I linked to above? re: #7 Walter L. Newton

Yes. Am I slightly suspicious of the tone? Yes. Do I agree that this loyalty oath business is not a good idea? Yes.

29 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:54:27am

re: #24 Gus 802

You know how it goes. The "real Americans" meme is not unlike the "real Jews" and "real Israelis" memes.

I never called her a real anything, did I? Simply pointing some thing out. Strange that these facts are bothering you so much?

30 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:54:58am

re: #29 Walter L. Newton

I never called her a real anything, did I? Simply pointing some thing out. Strange that these facts are bothering you so much?

Because you're pissing on this thread that's why.

31 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:55:28am

re: #26 Walter L. Newton

Where did I say she should? But looking over her writings, articles at her site and other sites, and the kind of blogs she links to... my first guess would be that she is very pro-Palestinian... just an observation.

Why?

Not surprising if so. However, the group has a lot of mainstream support. The Israeli Embassy, for example.

32 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:55:41am

re: #27 Walter L. Newton

I was speaking of Siobhan Schwartzberg, one of the founders of "Jews Against the EDL."

And your support for it seemed to be her position on a loyalty oath, the oath that the Isaac Herzog is so adamantly against.

So, given that that's your rationale for calling her not a friend for Israel, why doesn't it apply to him, too?

33 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:55:44am

re: #28 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes. Am I slightly suspicious of the tone? Yes. Do I agree that this loyalty oath business is not a good idea? Yes.

I'm suspicious of her tone too. That's all I was trying to point out. Google her name, look around.

34 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:56:31am

re: #29 Walter L. Newton

I never called her a real anything, did I? Simply pointing some thing out. Strange that these facts are bothering you so much?

Not bothering me. Interesting small detail. Do you draw any conclusions from it?

35 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:56:55am

re: #30 Gus 802

Because you're pissing on this thread that's why.

Oh I see... pointing out facts about subjects of this thread topic is verbotten... I get it.

36 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:57:34am

re: #35 Walter L. Newton

Oh I see... pointing out facts about subjects of this thread topic is verbotten... I get it.

Uh, that was just my opinion. I don't run LGF.

37 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:59:04am

re: #34 SanFranciscoZionist

Not bothering me. Interesting small detail. Do you draw any conclusions from it?

Well... when I read statements like...

"Secondly it’s the relationship between the far-right racism towards Muslims and the propaganda used by Israel to justify the oppression of Palestinians. This is a relationship the EDL have been quick to capitalise on."

... it appears that she is equating Israel's handling of the Palestinian issue as racist.

That bothers me a bit... yes.

38 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:01:47pm

re: #37 Walter L. Newton

Well... when I read statements like...

"Secondly it’s the relationship between the far-right racism towards Muslims and the propaganda used by Israel to justify the oppression of Palestinians. This is a relationship the EDL have been quick to capitalise on."

... it appears that she is equating Israel's handling of the Palestinian issue as racist.

That bothers me a bit... yes.

re: #37 Walter L. Newton

Well... when I read statements like...

"Secondly it’s the relationship between the far-right racism towards Muslims and the propaganda used by Israel to justify the oppression of Palestinians. This is a relationship the EDL have been quick to capitalise on."

... it appears that she is equating Israel's handling of the Palestinian issue as racist.

That bothers me a bit... yes.

OK. Basic left-leaning artsy schmuck.

39 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:02:18pm

There will be no beatings of SFZ until I get directions to the Cable Car restaurant.

That is all.

40 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:03:01pm

re: #35 Walter L. Newton

Oh I see... pointing out facts about subjects of this thread topic is verbotten... I get it.

Here's their list of supporters....

Board of Deputies of British Jews

Britain-Israel Parliamentary Group

Community Security Trust

Embassy of Israel

Holocaust Educational Trust

Jewish Council for Racial Equality

Jews for Justice for Palestinians

Lord Janner of Braunstone

Lord Levy

Love LSE, Hate Racism

StandWithUs UK

Union of Jewish Students

Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland

When Jews for Justice for Palestinians and the Zionist Federation agree on something it's probably a good idea. It's a diverse group or people opposing neoNazis, kind of a no brainer.

41 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:03:12pm

re: #39 researchok

The cable car is on Geary street, right near St. Joseph's place, right down the hill from Masonic. Great burgers, great shakes.

42 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:03:43pm

re: #41 Obdicut

The cable car is on Geary street, right near St. Joseph's place, right down the hill from Masonic. Great burgers, great shakes.

Are you in SF?

43 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:04:41pm

re: #36 Gus 802

Uh, that was just my opinion. I don't run LGF.

Look... I don't like Spencer or Geller anymore than most people on LGF does... and that's evident from my many personal email exchanges between myself and Spencer.

But at the same time... just as Robert indicates that he doesn't care much about what peoples politics are, just as long as they are anti-Islamist... which I find to be a stupid stance to take... I am also careful to find out the politics of people like Siobhan Schwartzberg... who may... at first glance.. be supportive of an anti-EDL message, but at the same time, be as far to the other end of the political spectrum in regards to Israel.

As much as I don't support Spencer and Gellar, nor the EDL, I'm not sure if I can support someone who makes statements like the one above.

44 HappyWarrior  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:05:21pm

The Union of Jewish Students is probably all too keenly aware of what the EDL is all about. And I am sure Geller and Spencer will smear them as stealth jihaids or some crap like that as they do to anyone who disagrees with their sick worldview. Seriously, the EDL is bad news and anyone with a brain should recongize that.

45 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:07:01pm

re: #38 SanFranciscoZionist

OK. Basic left-leaning artsy schmuck.

I will remember that line for a week. That is about as empirical as it gets.

46 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:07:23pm

re: #43 Walter L. Newton

Look... I don't like Spencer or Geller anymore than most people on LGF does... and that's evident from my many personal email exchanges between myself and Spencer.

But at the same time... just as Robert indicates that he doesn't care much about what peoples politics are, just as long as they are anti-Islamist... which I find to be a stupid stance to take... I am also careful to find out the politics of people like Siobhan Schwartzberg... who may... at first glance.. be supportive of an anti-EDL message, but at the same time, be as far to the other end of the political spectrum in regards to Israel.

As much as I don't support Spencer and Gellar, nor the EDL, I'm not sure if I can support someone who makes statements like the one above.

But Not In Our Name is more than Siobhan Schwartzberg. It's been noted twice already that it includes:

• Board of Deputies of British Jews
• Britain-Israel Parliamentary Group
• Community Security Trust
• Embassy of Israel
• Holocaust Educational Trust
• Jewish Council for Racial Equality
• Jews for Justice for Palestinians
• Lord Janner of Braunstone
• Lord Levy
• Love LSE, Hate Racism
• StandWithUs UK
• Union of Jewish Students
• Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland

47 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:07:36pm

re: #42 researchok

Are you in SF?

I used to be. Now I'm in NYC.

48 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:08:41pm

re: #43 Walter L. Newton

As much as I don't support Spencer and Gellar, nor the EDL, I'm not sure if I can support someone who makes statements like the one above.

Well, Israel can.

They've got a bit more Jew-cred than you do.

49 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:08:44pm

re: #43 Walter L. Newton

Look... I don't like Spencer or Geller anymore than most people on LGF does... and that's evident from my many personal email exchanges between myself and Spencer.

But at the same time... just as Robert indicates that he doesn't care much about what peoples politics are, just as long as they are anti-Islamist... which I find to be a stupid stance to take... I am also careful to find out the politics of people like Siobhan Schwartzberg... who may... at first glance.. be supportive of an anti-EDL message, but at the same time, be as far to the other end of the political spectrum in regards to Israel.

As much as I don't support Spencer and Gellar, nor the EDL, I'm not sure if I can support someone who makes statements like the one above.

You don't need to, however I think their broad support speaks for itself. I understand your concerns. Things tend to get very complicated with this stuff.

50 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:09:15pm

re: #46 Gus 802

But Not In Our Name is more than Siobhan Schwartzberg. It's been noted twice already that it includes:

• Board of Deputies of British Jews
• Britain-Israel Parliamentary Group
• Community Security Trust
• Embassy of Israel
• Holocaust Educational Trust
• Jewish Council for Racial Equality
• Jews for Justice for Palestinians
• Lord Janner of Braunstone
• Lord Levy
• Love LSE, Hate Racism
• StandWithUs UK
• Union of Jewish Students
• Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland

Noted.

51 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:10:07pm

re: #50 Walter L. Newton

Noted.

Cool. Sorry for being so surly.

52 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:10:09pm

re: #48 Obdicut

Well, Israel can.

They've got a bit more Jew-cred than you do.

I don't give a shit... I don't support statement like this... "Secondly it’s the relationship between the far-right racism towards Muslims and the propaganda used by Israel to justify the oppression of Palestinians. This is a relationship the EDL have been quick to capitalise on."

Do you?

53 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:10:28pm

re: #47 Obdicut

I used to be. Now I'm in NYC.

I saw the Cable Car featured on a TV show.

I've been mildly obsessing ever since.

54 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:12:39pm

re: #53 researchok

It's actually very good. Great old-school diner style burgers, nice workers, a nice spot. I recommend grabbing the burgers and then walking up to the top of the hill there, (just Masonic and Geary) unless the wind is blowing strongly. Then just eat in there.

55 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:14:10pm

re: #52 Walter L. Newton

I don't give a shit... I don't support statement like this... "Secondly it’s the relationship between the far-right racism towards Muslims and the propaganda used by Israel to justify the oppression of Palestinians. This is a relationship the EDL have been quick to capitalise on."

Do you?

Nope. What's your point, though? I'm sure she doesn't support some of the things that the Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland says.

Do you really think that people have to be 100% aligned with each other to come together in a common cause like this?

56 engineer cat  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:15:26pm

geller and her friends are a kulturschande

57 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:15:51pm

re: #55 Obdicut

Nope. What's your point, though? I'm sure she doesn't support some of the things that the Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland says.

Do you really think that people have to be 100% aligned with each other to come together in a common cause like this?

I've already stated my position.

58 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:18:39pm

re: #53 researchok

I saw the Cable Car featured on a TV show.

I've been mildly obsessing ever since.

I used to walk by this place.

59 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:19:51pm

re: #57 Walter L. Newton

I didn't ask what your position was. I asked what your point was.

In this case, we see Jews of every political stripe-- Zionists and those who are highly critical of Israel-- banding together against people who are truly antisemitic. If any situation shows that there really is a difference between being critical of Israel and being anti-semitic, this does.

60 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:23:06pm

Crazy Pam just posted about the Islamist protest in London today and eliminated all mention of the EDL counterprotest. She also announced a European-American summit, no mention of the EDL....
Muslim Protesters Create Havoc: 'British soldiers burn in hell' Blood Libel and Burnings

Our groups American Freedom Defense Initiative (AFDI)TM, Freedom Defense Initiative (FDI)TM, European Freedom Defense Initiative, European Freedom Initiative, Israel Freedom Initiative, SIOE, SIOA, SIAD, SIO Poland, SIO Romania, SIO Bulgaria, SIO France, SIO Sweden, SIO Norway et al, are organized and led by Anders Gravers in Europe and Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, James Lafferty, Pamela Hall, and Rich Davis in the States. We are creating "a coalition of the free" to defend "the coalition of the willing," as the war in the information battle space moves into its next phase.The Global Freedom Initiative.TM

We will be holding a huge conference in DC early next year, and will follow up with our teams in Europe, Asia, Latin America, China, and the Middle East in the Spring. Please contact me if you wish to represent your country in our coaltion. Join Robert and me, email me at (redacted). The fight is global.

61 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:25:38pm

re: #60 Killgore Trout

Crazy Pam just posted about the Islamist protest in London today and eliminated all mention of the EDL counterprotest. She also announced a European-American summit, no mention of the EDL...
Muslim Protesters Create Havoc: 'British soldiers burn in hell' Blood Libel and Burnings

She also posted every picture of the protest from this article except for the pics of the EDL.
Under the bus?

62 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:27:54pm
63 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:28:30pm

re: #59 Obdicut

I didn't ask what your position was. I asked what your point was.

In this case, we see Jews of every political stripe-- Zionists and those who are highly critical of Israel-- banding together against people who are truly antisemitic. If any situation shows that there really is a difference between being critical of Israel and being anti-semitic, this does.

I never brought up anti-semitism, in any sort of way... did I? I don't like this persons political positions... and ... I did some quick googling of some the groups and people associated with "Jews Against the EDL" and I find a lot of criticism of Israel... and a lot of pro-Palestinian positions... which of course they have a right to make... which I am not in agreement with...

I find Siobhan Schwartzberg (and the groups that are supporting her effort) I find their Israeli/Palestinian positions/politics wrong... and possibly the other side of the same coin as the EDL.

64 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:29:11pm

re: #58 Gus 802

I used to walk by this place.

Go ahead.

Kill me.
/

65 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:30:54pm

re: #61 Killgore Trout

Under the bus?

... and down the drain, most likely.

66 Big Steve  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:31:20pm

BTW.....as predicted the Google thing has gotten usual suspects upset.....
google Veterans Day flag

67 Ben Jephazi  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:31:53pm

re: #62 Dreggas

Time to boycott google...

It's not the bottom of the 'e' on the end of 'Google', it's a statement that the United States has secretly gone Islamic after electing a sekrit muslim presnit.

68 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:32:06pm

re: #63 Walter L. Newton

I find Siobhan Schwartzberg (and the groups that are supporting her effort) I find their Israeli/Palestinian positions/politics wrong... and possibly the other side of the same coin as the EDL.

Really? you're saying that the Israeli Embassy is possibly the other side of the coin of the EDL? That the • Holocaust Educational Trust is possibly the other side of the same coin as the EDL?

Seriously?

69 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:32:50pm

re: #58 Gus 802

By the way, see this, if you have a moment or two.

Today matters.

70 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:33:09pm

re: #64 researchok

Go ahead.

Kill me.
/

On the other side is the Cable Car Museum. Oddly enough I never went in. You know how it is when you're young and weird.

71 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:33:46pm

OT: Not sure if this has made the rounds in the wingnut-o-sphere yet, but I suppose it's only a matter of time...

Outrageous OUTRAGE!!!

Google Veterans Day Controversy: American Flag, Islamic Crescent Moon Doodle Sparks Internet Outrage

72 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:33:52pm

re: #70 Gus 802

I never went there either. For residents, the cable cars just aren't that big a deal.

73 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:34:16pm

re: #70 Gus 802

On the other side is the Cable Car Museum. Oddly enough I never went in. You know how it is when you're young and weird.

You are a piker. My list of young and stupid trumps yours- I guarantee it.

74 HappyWarrior  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:34:24pm

re: #66 Big Steve

BTW...as predicted the Google thing has gotten usual suspects upset...
google Veterans Day flag

Gee do they see Muslims under their beds when they sleep at night? This anti Islam paranoia is so pathetic.

75 albusteve  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:34:50pm

re: #61 Killgore Trout

She also posted every picture of the protest from this article except for the pics of the EDL.
Under the bus?

multi culti failure....ranting at the Brits while they murder their own by the tens of thousands

76 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:34:55pm

re: #68 Obdicut

Really? you're saying that the Israeli Embassy is possibly the other side of the coin of the EDL? That the • Holocaust Educational Trust is possibly the other side of the same coin as the EDL?

Seriously?

You don't read very well... I said "some" didn't I? Like "Jews for Justice for Palestinians" and so far... I can't find any outside endorsements from the Israeli Embassy, Lord Levy, Lord Janner of Braunstone, and others...

77 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:35:41pm

re: #72 Obdicut

I never went there either. For residents, the cable cars just aren't that big a deal.

True. I used to ride it to come back home from work. Walk down and cable car up.

78 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:35:56pm

re: #69 researchok

By the way, see this, if you have a moment or two.

Today matters.

Thanks! Bookmarked.

79 albusteve  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:36:09pm

re: #70 Gus 802

On the other side is the Cable Car Museum. Oddly enough I never went in. You know how it is when you're young and weird.

I implore you to visit the Ford Museum someday...thank me later

80 FreedomMoon  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:36:10pm

That picture of Pam Geller and Robert Spencer always gives me the creeps. They're standing eerily close to one another-- if I didn't know any better I'd have a hard time deciding whether they were intimate lovers or Siamese twins.

81 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:36:19pm

re: #74 HappyWarrior

Gee do they see Muslims under their beds when they sleep at night? This anti Islam paranoia is so pathetic.

I think Google does it on purpose, just for the publicity.

82 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:36:20pm

re: #76 Walter L. Newton

You don't read very well... I said "some" didn't I?

No, you didn't.

I find Siobhan Schwartzberg (and the groups that are supporting her effort) I find their Israeli/Palestinian positions/politics wrong... and possibly the other side of the same coin as the EDL.

No 'some" there at all, Walter.

83 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:36:43pm

re: #66 Big Steve

BTW...as predicted the Google thing has gotten usual suspects upset...
google Veterans Day flag

Ah, ya beat me too it. I'll get you, Big Steve, and your little dog too!
/

84 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:37:08pm

re: #74 HappyWarrior

Gee do they see Muslims under their beds when they sleep at night? This anti Islam paranoia is so pathetic.

The other day...I was coming home late...and I saw...up in the sky...

A CRESCENT!

Who knows how far this conspiracy goes. Crescents in the sky.

(They're covering up, though. It was gone a few days later.)

85 HappyWarrior  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:37:39pm

re: #81 researchok

I think Google does it on purpose, just for the publicity.

Well I was talking about the more broader Islamic paranoia that these loons have. Remember the freak out over the I believe atomic energy commission logo or something like that.

86 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:37:41pm

Arrrrgh-- Obdi, see this- I meant to tell you earlier.

It's about today.

87 HappyWarrior  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:38:28pm

re: #84 EmmmieG

The other day...I was coming home late...and I saw...up in the sky...

A CRESCENT!

Who knows how far this conspiracy goes. Crescents in the sky.

(They're covering up, though. It was gone a few days later.)

Now the Muslims have gotten to our moon, you just know they're going to try to implement Sharia law on the moon. Halal meat for the moon creatures!

88 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:38:35pm

re: #85 HappyWarrior

Well I was talking about the more broader Islamic paranoia that these loons have. Remember the freak out over the I believe atomic energy commission logo or something like that.

I know- but it does keep Google front and center.

I guess I'm a cynic.

89 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:39:16pm

re: #82 Obdicut

No, you didn't.

No 'some" there at all, Walter.

" I did some quick googling of some the groups and people associated with "Jews Against the EDL" and I find a lot of criticism of Israel... and a lot of pro-Palestinian positions... which of course they have a right to make... which I am not in agreement with..."

There was no need to modify the statement in my second paragraph with the word "some" again.

90 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:39:24pm

re: #84 EmmmieG

OH NOES!! LUNAR SHARIA CREEP!!!
/

91 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:40:51pm

re: #75 albusteve

The Uk and Europe do have a serious problem with Islamists but that is the same group of 8-12 Muslims who show up to all those events. More journalists there than Jihadis.

92 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:40:57pm

re: #85 HappyWarrior

Well I was talking about the more broader Islamic paranoia that these loons have. Remember the freak out over the I believe atomic energy commission logo or something like that.

That was the Missile Defense Agency logo.

Some of us are still recuperating from all the laughter.

93 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:41:24pm

re: #78 Gus 802

Thanks! Bookmarked.

What blew me away the first time I was in SF was the Christmas store, down by the wharf. I had never seen anything like that in the UK- blew me away.

I also couldn't get over how many varieties of jam there were here- and all in glass jars and none in tins.

I was one sorry ass kid that first time over here....

94 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:41:51pm

re: #89 Walter L. Newton

There was no need to modify the statement in my second paragraph with the word "some" again.

Yes there was. You didn't. You should have, if that's what you actually meant.
Because what you said was this:

I find Siobhan Schwartzberg (and the groups that are supporting her effort) I find their Israeli/Palestinian positions/politics wrong... and possibly the other side of the same coin as the EDL.

I accept that you didn't meant that, and what you meant was:


I find Siobhan Schwartzberg (and some of the groups that are supporting her effort) I find their Israeli/Palestinian positions/politics wrong... and possibly the other side of the same coin as the EDL.

Now, which of those groups have engaged in violence on the level of the EDL, Walter?

95 HappyWarrior  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:43:05pm

re: #92 Gus 802

That was the Missile Defense Agency logo.

Some of us are still recuperating from all the laughter.

Oh it was Missile Defense Agency. Thanks. Knew it was something. Yeah this stuff amuses rather than angers me really. I wonder if they tuck their children in by saying "Don't let the Islamists bite."

96 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:43:12pm

re: #93 researchok

What blew me away the first time I was in SF was the Christmas store, down by the wharf. I had never seen anything like that in the UK- blew me away.

I also couldn't get over how many varieties of jam there were here- and all in glass jars and none in tins.

I was one sorry ass kid that first time over here...

San Francisco is one of the best towns for food. Back when I was there you could also eat out regularly and not spend much because of all the competition.

97 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:43:17pm

re: #93 researchok

I grew up in the countryside for most of the year, and in San Francisco for the summers with my grandmother. It was awesome; San Francisco is unspoiled with memories of boring school, instead I took awesome classes at the Academy of Sciences and studied tracking in Marin, etc.

I miss SF a lot. We're going to head back there in seven years. That's a long, long way away.

98 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:44:03pm

re: #96 Gus 802

San Francisco is one of the best towns for food. Back when I was there you could also eat out regularly and not spend much because of all the competition.

That's one of the things I miss most; there is shitloads of terrible, overpriced food here in NYC. Every block has a diner, and very few of them have anything at all worth eating. You really have to do due diligence to find a good meal.

99 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:44:13pm

re: #95 HappyWarrior

Oh it was Missile Defense Agency. Thanks. Knew it was something. Yeah this stuff amuses rather than angers me really. I wonder if they tuck their children in by saying "Don't let the Islamists bite."

It's over the top paranoia.

100 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:44:16pm

re: #91 Killgore Trout

The Uk and Europe do have a serious problem with Islamists but that is the same group of 8-12 Muslims who show up to all those events. More journalists there than Jihadis.

Well, the visible problem are the dozen or so you refer to.

The real problem is the influence they have, from the banlieues in Paris and Marseilles to Holland and Norway and Sweden.

I wish it weren't so but in some places, the problems have birthed worse problems.

And so it goes.

101 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:44:40pm

re: #97 Obdicut

I grew up in the countryside for most of the year, and in San Francisco for the summers with my grandmother. It was awesome; San Francisco is unspoiled with memories of boring school, instead I took awesome classes at the Academy of Sciences and studied tracking in Marin, etc.

I miss SF a lot. We're going to head back there in seven years. That's a long, long way away.

Why so long?

102 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:45:19pm

re: #94 Obdicut

Yes there was. You didn't. You should have, if that's what you actually meant.
Because what you said was this:

I accept that you didn't meant that, and what you meant was:

Now, which of those groups have engaged in violence on the level of the EDL, Walter?

When did I use the words "engaged in violence on the level of the EDL?" when did I even speak about demonstrations? I didn't even try to make a Tu Quoque argument (like you just did). From the start, I was talking about Siobhan Schwartzberg Isreal/Palestinian position... wasn't I?

So... your question is moot.

103 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:45:26pm

re: #101 researchok

Why so long?

My wife is in a MD/PhD program. They take awhile.

104 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:45:50pm

re: #98 Obdicut

That's one of the things I miss most; there is shitloads of terrible, overpriced food here in NYC. Every block has a diner, and very few of them have anything at all worth eating. You really have to do due diligence to find a good meal.

Sals pizza on B'way, up around 96th

Tell him the English guy says hello.

Manna from Heaven, I tell you.

105 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:46:54pm

re: #103 Obdicut

My wife is in a MD/PhD program. They take awhile.

Understood.

Those are meat grinder programs.

106 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:46:55pm

re: #102 Walter L. Newton

You alleged that other groups were 'possibly the other side of the coin of the EDL' . The EDL are violent.

I'm glad you're backing away from that silly speculation. It was a very foolish one.

107 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:47:07pm

re: #98 Obdicut

That's one of the things I miss most; there is shitloads of terrible, overpriced food here in NYC. Every block has a diner, and very few of them have anything at all worth eating. You really have to do due diligence to find a good meal.

Yeah. Denver is meh compared to SF. Plus, Denver's been infested with cookie cutter chain restaurants (although they all have different names) all owned by the people that own Larimer Square -- which is a tourist trap.

108 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:50:08pm

re: #107 Gus 802

Oddly enough the only other city I've eaten in with consistently great food is Salt Lake City. But luck probably had a lot to do with that. I was only there for a week.

109 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:51:06pm

re: #107 Gus 802

Yeah. Denver is meh compared to SF. Plus, Denver's been infested with cookie cutter chain restaurants (although they all have different names) all owned by the people that own Larimer Square -- which is a tourist trap.

There is that cool spice shop there.

And the Cricket burger place (haven't been, but I've heard about it).

110 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:52:06pm

What Tea Party violence?
Tea Party Resignation Tied To School Shooting Scare In Florida?

Did Joyce Kaufman, the South Florida right-wing radio talk show host who was named (and then unnamed) as Republican Rep.-elect Allen West's chief of staff, inspire the deranged person whose threats led to yesterday's lock down of Broward County public schools, libraries and post offices? It looks that way.

As you might recall, someone emailed Kaufman's radio station, WFTL, declaring that he or she was planning a violent act against some kind of government building, possibly a school. A phone call to the station yesterday, from a woman identifying herself as the e-mailer's wife, later warned that this man could potentially commit a terrorist act against a public school. That prompted a countywide lock down of all public schools.

The local Fox affiliate since reported that the threat-maker had said he was inspired by none other than Joyce Kaufman, who had received publicity in the last few days for her previous calls for violent action against the government in order to protect citizens from the tyranny of the Obama administration.

111 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:52:17pm

re: #108 Obdicut

Oddly enough the only other city I've eaten in with consistently great food is Salt Lake City. But luck probably had a lot to do with that. I was only there for a week.

I had the same experience in Omaha, of all places.

The food was excellent. The city really is a 'small Chicago'.

112 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:52:31pm

re: #109 researchok

There is that cool spice shop there.

And the Cricket burger place (haven't been, but I've heard about it).

[Link: www.cherrycricket.com...]

113 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:53:35pm

re: #109 researchok

There is that cool spice shop there.

And the Cricket burger place (haven't been, but I've heard about it).

I'm just a crab sometimes. I used to like Racines.

114 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:53:35pm

re: #112 Walter L. Newton

[Link: www.cherrycricket.com...]

That's the one.

The place just calls to me...

115 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:55:30pm

re: #113 Gus 802

I'm just a crab sometimes. I used to like Racines.

Nice menu.

That said, I would have pegged you more as a 'joint' guy.

You must have a favorite joint or pub- right?

116 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:55:59pm

re: #114 researchok

That's the one.

The place just calls to me...

And a little pimping... I'm heading out to the Blue Skies Inn in Manitou Springs... if you ever want a unique and wonderful place to stay at... right under Pikes Peak... check out these rooms...

[Link: www.blueskiesbb.com...]

117 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:57:03pm

re: #115 researchok

Oh, and you want to be on the north side of Geary for the Cable Car restaurant. There's a long stretch there without crosswalks.

118 albusteve  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:57:24pm

video super sleuth James O'Keef presents his latest catch...
[Link: www.nj.com...]

119 lawhawk  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:58:18pm

re: #108 Obdicut

I've had that experience too with SLC. Good food wherever we tried (and I highly recommend Red Rocks Brewing Company for the brew and food, which is a cut above the standard brew pub fare).

NYC food is tough. Manhattan prices are crazy compared to the quality you get - and wherever you turn, you've got a tourist trap running with the crazy prices. The outer boroughs are far more affordable, and there are some great restaurants in Park Slope, Brooklyn Heights and Bay Ridge. Locals always seem to know where to go...

If you're in SI, get yourself over to Denino's Pizza and Ralph's Ices, which puts all the other ices you've ever tried to shame (the creme ices are amazing).

120 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:58:32pm

re: #116 Walter L. Newton

And a little pimping... I'm heading out to the Blue Skies Inn in Manitou Springs... if you ever want a unique and wonderful place to stay at... right under Pikes Peak... check out these rooms...

[Link: www.blueskiesbb.com...]

I need new luggage.
Now.

121 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:59:08pm

re: #115 researchok

Nice menu.

That said, I would have pegged you more as a 'joint' guy.

You must have a favorite joint or pub- right?

Me? Nah. I've always been a homebody. Tried the bar thing a few times but never got into it. Plus you wind up having to spend tons of money for a few beers. I did go to Vesuvios a lot of times in SF. Usually for happy hour. Place would always smell like Pine Sol and vomit. Now, whenever I smell Pine Sol it reminds me of vomit smell.

122 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:01:24pm

re: #118 albusteve

video super sleuth James O'Keef presents his latest catch...
[Link: www.nj.com...]

You know what?

Us ugly as the NEA Ahole is, O'Keefe really gets under my skin. The jerk was expressing a stupid opinion. Lots of those around.

You don't have to be a lowlife to get the story.

123 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:01:46pm

re: #120 researchok

I need new luggage.
Now.

Nice place huh? And the "delivered to your door" breakfast is as good as anything you would get in a 4-5 star restaurant.

There has been a number of Lizards who have stayed their on my recommendation... and no one has complained yet.

(Full Disclosure... the girlfriend and I don't have that kind of expendable cash for those room rates... but it just so happens that she has a second mortgage on the place... and the owners are good friends of ours... ergo... a free place to stay when we want to get away from Conifer.)

124 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:02:40pm

re: #121 Gus 802

Me? Nah. I've always been a homebody. Tried the bar thing a few times but never got into it. Plus you wind up having to spend tons of money for a few beers. I did go to Vesuvios a lot of times in SF. Usually for happy hour. Place would always smell like Pine Sol and vomit. Now, whenever I smell Pine Sol it reminds me of vomit smell.

I'm not much of a drinker, but it is nice to get out every now and then.

That's what I tell myself.

125 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:03:41pm

re: #123 Walter L. Newton

Nice place huh? And the "delivered to your door" breakfast is as good as anything you would get in a 4-5 star restaurant.

There has been a number of Lizards who have stayed their on my recommendation... and no one has complained yet.

(Full Disclosure... the girlfriend and I don't have that kind of expendable cash for those room rates... but it just so happens that she has a second mortgage on the place... and the owners are good friends of ours... ergo... a free place to stay when we want to get away from Conifer.)

That's like a winning a mini lotto every now and then. Nice.

I hope it's a long term note.

126 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:04:16pm

Heh.

I'm still tinkering with it and rewriting the phrases, but here's a sneak preview of the brand new Shrieking Harpy Rant Generator.

127 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:05:53pm

I would be interested to hear where everyone went to eat in SLC. When I lived there I was too poor to eat out.

128 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:06:00pm

re: #125 researchok

That's like a winning a mini lotto every now and then. Nice.

I hope it's a long term note.

Snarky me... I've suggested any time they are late with a payment... foreclose... I;ve always wanted to run a bed and breakfast :)

129 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:06:33pm

re: #126 Charles

Heh.

I'm still tinkering with it and rewriting the phrases, but here's a sneak preview of the brand new Shrieking Harpy Rant Generator.

The Jeffrey Dahmer and Crack whore dereferences are priceless.

130 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:07:15pm

re: #128 Walter L. Newton

Snarky me... I've suggested any time they are late with a payment... foreclose... I;ve always wanted to run a bed and breakfast :)

There are a lot worse ways to make a living!

131 Ben Jephazi  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:07:57pm

[Link: reason.com...]

The ACLU helps fight back against nanny state idiocy. I'm glad they got their baby back, and wish them luck reining in wayward county officials.

132 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:09:36pm

I'd like to own a haunted bed and breakfast.

Or at least stay at one.

Would be cool.

133 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:12:59pm

re: #131 3eff Jeff

The ACLU of Pennsylvania recently filed a civil rights lawsuit on behalf of a couple whose newborn baby was kidnapped by Lawrence County Children and Youth Services (LCCYS) because her mother recklessly consumed an "everything" bagel from Dunkin' Donuts the day before the birth. Jameson Hospital, where Isabella Rodriguez was born on April 27, has a policy of testing expectant mothers' urine for illegal drugs and reporting positive results to LCCYS, even without any additional evidence that the baby is in danger of neglect or abuse.

Wow. Glad the ACLU was able to help these people. I'm sure Pat Robertson can't wait to tell us this is why god hates America.

134 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:13:14pm

re: #127 EmmmieG

I would be interested to hear where everyone went to eat in SLC. When I lived there I was too poor to eat out.

Best restaurant in SLC?

This Is The Place.
/

135 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:14:19pm

re: #133 Slumbering Behemoth

Wow. Glad the ACLU was able to help these people. I'm sure Pat Robertson can't wait to tell us this is why god hates America.

That's Fred Phelps.

Pat Robertson holds the fundraising drives to save America.

136 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:15:14pm

re: #133 Slumbering Behemoth

Wow. Glad the ACLU was able to help these people. I'm sure Pat Robertson can't wait to tell us this is why god hates America.

Just say no to poppy seed bagels.

//

137 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:17:01pm

re: #131 3eff Jeff

[Link: reason.com...]

The ACLU helps fight back against nanny state idiocy. I'm glad they got their baby back, and wish them luck reining in wayward county officials.

Hey, the kid was in good hands. I'm pretty sure that having Lawrence County Children and Youth Services take the kid was just like dropping him off at the Post Office or local DMV.

//

138 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:18:35pm

re: #135 researchok

That's Fred Phelps.

Pat Robertson holds the fundraising drives to save America.

Is that so? My bad, I was thinking of Jerry Falwell, not Pat Robertson. Though Pat is thoroughly in agreement.

139 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:18:53pm

re: #134 researchok

Best restaurant in SLC?

This Is The Place.
/

Is there actually a restaurant named that? Or are you being cute?

140 Ben Jephazi  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:19:05pm

re: #137 Gus 802

Hey, the kid was in good hands. I'm pretty sure that having Lawrence County Children and Youth Services take the kid was just like dropping him off at the Post Office or local DMV.

//

Yeah. After having a newborn in the house for three days, you'd think they'd be grateful for a five day vacation.

///

141 reine.de.tout  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:19:29pm

re: #129 researchok

The Jeffrey Dahmer and Crack whore dereferences are priceless.

Every time I click I get a different one - I haven't seen that one yet.

142 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:20:16pm

re: #132 EmmmieG

Scooby Douche could come by and put it on TV.

143 reine.de.tout  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:20:45pm

re: #132 EmmmieG

I'd like to own a haunted bed and breakfast.

Or at least stay at one.

Would be cool.

Here's your place.

144 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:20:59pm

re: #142 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That makes me laugh every time I read it.

145 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:21:46pm

re: #140 3eff Jeff

Yeah. After having a newborn in the house for three days, you'd think they'd be grateful for a five day vacation.

///

Yep. Why I bet they apply that test equally too. That bi-racial working class couple was treated just like they'd treat a white yuppie couple who are both 5'-10" and good looking.

//

146 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:21:58pm

re: #140 3eff Jeff

Yeah. After having a newborn in the house for three days, you'd think they'd be grateful for a five day vacation.

///

I'm sitting here trying to imagine what it would do to a postpartum woman to have her baby seized.

147 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:22:33pm

re: #139 EmmmieG

Is there actually a restaurant named that? Or are you being cute?

I was kidding.

Joseph Smith, Mormon leader and prophet, said when he saw the valley, 'This is the place' and the congregation wanderings were over. They set up shop then and there.

148 Randall Gross  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:23:16pm

re: #138 Slumbering Behemoth

Is that so? My bad, I was thinking of Jerry Falwell, not Pat Robertson. Though Pat is thoroughly in agreement.

Hell, it was probably a Falwell or Robertson follower who put the drug test childnapping policy in place.

149 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:23:27pm

BBIAB

150 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:24:53pm

re: #148 Thanos

Zero Tolerance FTW!

151 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:25:55pm

re: #147 researchok

I was kidding.

Joseph Smith, Mormon leader and prophet, said when he saw the valley, 'This is the place' and the congregation wanderings were over. They set up shop then and there.

Close. Brigham Young said "This is the Right Place." Joseph Smith had been dead for five years by then.

It would be a good name for a restaurant, and I could see someone using it. That's why I asked.

152 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:26:54pm

re: #148 Thanos

Hell, it was probably a Falwell or Robertson follower who put the drug test childnapping policy in place.

I was thinking perhaps Big Sesame Seed. Given that they're in competition with Big Poppy.

//

153 iossarian  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:31:28pm

It's an interesting case, this baby-snatching, because although the child protection people screwed up, there are multiple "solutions" to the problem, that run the range from libertarian to social safety net.

One solution at the libertarian end of the scale would be to have no kind of drug testing or child protection agency involved in the pregnancy/delivery process.

Another solution at the social safety net end would be to have a more comprehensive pregnancy care solution that actually flagged problems at an early stage to child protection, or (conversely) gave an all clear, since it's pretty evident that there was plenty of evidence that this was not a "problem" couple.

One thing is clear though: having an agency make snap decisions on the basis of one clearly fallible test is a very bad policy.

154 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:31:50pm

re: #96 Gus 802

San Francisco is one of the best towns for food. Back when I was there you could also eat out regularly and not spend much because of all the competition.

That is currently Portland, though we don't have the critical mass of awesome ethnic food that SF does :D

(We do make a tasty pad thai)

155 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:33:34pm

WTF? Sesame Street Mutha-Fucka!

So not safe for work.

156 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:33:39pm

re: #153 iossarian

It's an interesting case, this baby-snatching, because although the child protection people screwed up, there are multiple "solutions" to the problem, that run the range from libertarian to social safety net.

One solution at the libertarian end of the scale would be to have no kind of drug testing or child protection agency involved in the pregnancy/delivery process.

Another solution at the social safety net end would be to have a more comprehensive pregnancy care solution that actually flagged problems at an early stage to child protection, or (conversely) gave an all clear, since it's pretty evident that there was plenty of evidence that this was not a "problem" couple.

One thing is clear though: having an agency make snap decisions on the basis of one clearly fallible test is a very bad policy.

I don't agree with any drugs testing of any patients in hospitals unless there is an outward indication of drugs use that may impair the treatment of the patients. None. Unless the patients is acting stoned. Zero, zilch, nada. No drug tests.

157 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:35:12pm

re: #154 WindUpBird

That is currently Portland, though we don't have the critical mass of awesome ethnic food that SF does :D

(We do make a tasty pad thai)

The gourmet food carts in my neighborhood are insane. A new one just opened up serving wild game. Deer kebabs, Lamb Burgers, rabbit stew, etc. All for the price of a super combo meal from a fast food chain. It's amazing.

158 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:35:45pm

Maybe if I get to test my doctor for drugs and everyone at family services and the local police department. Oh, and the mayor.

//

159 darthstar  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:36:00pm

Missile mystery solved:
Some woman from Roseville, CA (John Doolittle's former district, of course) with healthy cleavage and her own website explains how the Pledians intercepted the missile that Barack Obama had launched from east of Los Angeles at Iran.

I feel better now.


And hey, humans are meat to the government that sells our dead bodies as meat to aliens who pass buy every 50 years for a 'meat market'...

160 iossarian  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:36:02pm

re: #156 Gus 802

I don't agree with any drugs testing of any patients in hospitals unless there is an outward indication of drugs use that may impair the treatment of the patients. None. Unless the patients is acting stoned. Zero, zilch, nada. No drug tests.

Well, that leaves the door open for plenty of interpretation. Women who have just given birth can often be in something of a distracted mental state. Would white middle-class women appear to be less "stoned" than black working-class women?

If you think it might ever be a good idea to check that someone carrying a baby off into the night is going to actually remember to feed the kid, then you have to have some kind of system in place for making those decisions.

161 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:36:35pm

re: #156 Gus 802

I don't agree with any drugs testing of any patients in hospitals unless there is an outward indication of drugs use that may impair the treatment of the patients. None. Unless the patients is acting stoned. Zero, zilch, nada. No drug tests.

I think in some states, drug testing is mandated for those receiving pre-natal care on the public dime.

162 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:36:51pm

re: #160 iossarian

Well, that leaves the door open for plenty of interpretation. Women who have just given birth can often be in something of a distracted mental state. Would white middle-class women appear to be less "stoned" than black working-class women?

If you think it might ever be a good idea to check that someone carrying a baby off into the night is going to actually remember to feed the kid, then you have to have some kind of system in place for making those decisions.

Then dentists should test their patients for drugs.

163 darthstar  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:37:45pm

re: #159 darthstar

pass by, not buy...sheesh. PIMF (Paranoia is my friend)

164 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:37:52pm

re: #161 Slumbering Behemoth

I think in some states, drug testing is mandated for those receiving pre-natal care on the public dime.

Well yeah. Of course they do. It's because they're the underclass. The poor. All the rich mothers strung out on who knows what won't get tested for drugs.

165 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:38:08pm

re: #159 darthstar

Jebus, is there anyone those commies won't talk too?

166 iossarian  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:38:46pm

re: #162 Gus 802

Then dentists should test their patients for drugs.

Obviously there is no hard and fast answer - again this is an instance of liberalism being about distinguishing between shades of gray.

FWIW, I think that society has an obligation to ensure a minimum level of safety for newborns, which may include taking them away from their parents. The debate, of course, is about what constitutes a minimum level of safety.

167 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:38:53pm

re: #157 Killgore Trout

The gourmet food carts in my neighborhood are insane. A new one just opened up serving wild game. Deer kebabs, Lamb Burgers, rabbit stew, etc. All for the price of a super combo meal from a fast food chain. It's amazing.

Oh GOD I want to eat everything at those food carts on Hawthorne O_O There's just a crazy renaissance in food cart food here and I've got to get on that train. :D

168 darthstar  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:39:30pm

re: #165 Slumbering Behemoth

Jebus, is there anyone those commies won't talk too?

Love this comment at that youtube video:


Can anyone direct me to the schizophrenic swingers support group?

Oh, there it is.

169 RadicalModerate  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:39:43pm

One would think that after all the birther, nirther, "secret muslim" and general fanatical claims that WND couldn't possibly go any lower in their rhetoric concerning President Obama.

Fear not, hot off the presses is their newest assertion, complete with 1960s-era dog-whistles in hand.

Fun New WND Accusation: Obama Rapes College Girls

Like the sorority girl who fell asleep drunk, awakening to an opportunistic frat boy peeling her clothes off, Americans let their guard down in a big way. Fortunately, the fear roused us from that torpor and insensibility, and we were able to fend him off before the deed was done. But we have a responsibility now to determine that he doesn’t have the opportunity to harm anyone else.

If you doubt where the article's author is coming from, a quick gander at his WND bio:

Erik Rush is a columnist and author of sociopolitical fare. His latest book is "Negrophilia: From Slave Block to Pedestal - America's Racial Obsession."
170 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:40:05pm

re: #166 iossarian

Obviously there is no hard and fast answer - again this is an instance of liberalism being about distinguishing between shades of gray.

FWIW, I think that society has an obligation to ensure a minimum level of safety for newborns, which may include taking them away from their parents. The debate, of course, is about what constitutes a minimum level of safety.

I say leave them alone and leave it to the discretion of the attending doctor. That's the way it was done before. Enough of this mandated BS that requires everyone to be treated like a criminal. It smacks of a police state.

171 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:41:04pm

re: #160 iossarian

Well, that leaves the door open for plenty of interpretation. Women who have just given birth can often be in something of a distracted mental state. Would white middle-class women appear to be less "stoned" than black working-class women?

If you think it might ever be a good idea to check that someone carrying a baby off into the night is going to actually remember to feed the kid, then you have to have some kind of system in place for making those decisions.

Once in the hospital somewhere in the first few hours after giving birth, I remember getting extremely cold and shaking uncontrollably.

I was afraid that if I alerted the nurses they would stick the IV back in my arm, so I waited a few minutes and it went away.

Looking back, kinda dumb.

So my point is...some freaky stuff can happen right after birth. That's why they check on you every few hours, to the point of waking you up from sleep (grrr). Also, it is totally normally to be an emotional wreck for at least a couple of weeks.

172 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:41:29pm

re: #168 darthstar

She does kinda fit the stereotypical swinger look.

173 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:42:20pm

re: #166 iossarian

Obviously there is no hard and fast answer - again this is an instance of liberalism being about distinguishing between shades of gray.

FWIW, I think that society has an obligation to ensure a minimum level of safety for newborns, which may include taking them away from their parents. The debate, of course, is about what constitutes a minimum level of safety.

Evidence of systemic drug use and a police investigation would help! Certainly not just one test. That's a pretty low burden of proof to take a kid away!

174 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:43:11pm

re: #170 Gus 802

I say leave them alone and leave it to the discretion of the attending doctor. That's the way it was done before. Enough of this mandated BS that requires everyone to be treated like a criminal. It smacks of a police state.

Whee zero tolerance for everything!

175 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:43:22pm

re: #159 darthstar

Missile mystery solved:
Some woman from Roseville, CA (John Doolittle's former district, of course) with healthy cleavage and her own website explains how the Pledians intercepted the missile that Barack Obama had launched from east of Los Angeles at Iran.

I feel better now.

[Video]And hey, humans are meat to the government that sells our dead bodies as meat to aliens who pass buy every 50 years for a 'meat market'...

Psycho-cleavage.

/

176 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:43:41pm

re: #169 RadicalModerate

There really is no "low" that is low enough for these sleezebags, is there?

177 iossarian  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:43:51pm

re: #170 Gus 802

I say leave them alone and leave it to the discretion of the attending doctor. That's the way it was done before. Enough of this mandated BS that requires everyone to be treated like a criminal. It smacks of a police state.

Well, that's definitely a system that could work (allow individual doctors to decide whether to ask child protection to intervene). You would assume that the decision would very often be the right one.

The only concern I would have would, ironically, be about whether this system disproportionately affects low-income families, as you could speculate that doctors would be more likely to turn a blind eye to middle class addictions than to working class addictions.

178 Bubblehead II  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:44:52pm

re: #159 darthstar

Can I have some of what she is smoking?

179 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:44:55pm

re: #175 Gus 802

The best kind there is, my friend. The best kind there is.
/

180 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:45:32pm

re: #111 researchok

heh... The funniest thing that ever happened to me as a veggie was in Omaha.

I was at the Omaha Beef Company (attached to the hotel so I could have a few drinks)... asked the waiter what she'd recommend for a vegetarian... she replied (without missing a beat) "I'd recommend he go outside and read the building."

Funniest damn thing ever.

181 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:45:43pm

re: #175 Gus 802

This site doesn't have any animated flying saucer gifs, giant banner ads warning of the end of days, under-construction signs, blinking marquee formatted HTML, OR even a webcounter? What kind of conspiracy site is this?

183 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:50:24pm

re: #177 iossarian

Well, that's definitely a system that could work (allow individual doctors to decide whether to ask child protection to intervene). You would assume that the decision would very often be the right one.

The only concern I would have would, ironically, be about whether this system disproportionately affects low-income families, as you could speculate that doctors would be more likely to turn a blind eye to middle class addictions than to working class addictions.

I would hope that a doctor, an MD, would be able to make a more rational and caring decision about a patient then some bureaucrat reading his or her "enforcement manual".

Another thing is that Federal employees are on subjected to 2,000 nanograms/mL of opiate metabolites for testing while this woman was abused by family services based on 300 nanograms/mL.

My advice to her would be to sue the hospital and family services for several million dollars that way they re-think their drug testing policy. If they want to play hard ball so should this woman.

184 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:51:20pm

re: #182 WindUpBird

This is how you rock a extra-terrestrial coverup conspiracy web presence on the internet

Freemasons! You can't have a conspiracy theory without the Masons being involved.

Because nobody was as freaky as George Washington.

185 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:51:49pm

re: #184 EmmmieG

Freemasons! You can't have a conspiracy theory without the Masons being involved.

Because nobody was as freaky as George Washington.

Freemasons are like the all beef patty of conspiracy theories :D

186 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:52:31pm
187 darthstar  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:52:31pm
188 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:53:12pm

re: #187 darthstar

Human meat market! To serve man! :D

189 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:53:34pm

re: #181 WindUpBird

This site doesn't have any animated flying saucer gifs, giant banner ads warning of the end of days, under-construction signs, blinking marquee formatted HTML, OR even a webcounter? What kind of conspiracy site is this?

Looks rather minimalist. Hmm, crazy stuff too:

I have it on divine authority that there is NOT going to be a next president of the United States, we will be governed by committees of people, not by a single leader. The power in this nation belongs to the people and their communities. Our centralized government is a sham and disgrace and is being dismantled. Obama blows in the winds of the Bilderberg Group's whims and they are all self-centered rat bastards who care nothing for human health and well being.

191 Ben Jephazi  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:54:42pm

re: #159 darthstar

Uh... That's some amazing performance art. She managed to sneak in Bilderberg, flouride and EMP weapons. Not to mention the aliens, of course.

re: #182 WindUpBird

1997 called. They want their HTML back.

192 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:55:20pm

re: #191 3eff Jeff

Uh... That's some amazing performance art. She managed to sneak in Bilderberg, flouride and EMP weapons. Not to mention the aliens, of course.

re: #182 WindUpBird

1997 called. They want their HTML back.

We were so innocent then, with our tables and our resize tag and our transparent gifs :D

193 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:56:19pm

Teabagger psychic?

/

194 darthstar  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:56:53pm

re: #188 WindUpBird

Human meat market! To serve man! :D

You'd think it would help us with our deficit, selling off all our corpses.

195 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 1:57:17pm

re: #174 WindUpBird

Whee zero tolerance for everything!

Zero tolerance for tolerance.

196 Ben Jephazi  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 2:00:00pm

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

If this hadn't been mentioned yet: the new theory is US Airways flight 808, Honolulu to Phoenix.

197 Gus  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 2:00:20pm

BIAB

198 Ben Jephazi  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 2:02:19pm

re: #196 3eff Jeff

For more pictures: [Link: blog.bahneman.com...]

199 reine.de.tout  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 2:09:10pm

re: #170 Gus 802

I say leave them alone and leave it to the discretion of the attending doctor. That's the way it was done before. Enough of this mandated BS that requires everyone to be treated like a criminal. It smacks of a police state.

While I generally agree with you, I do know there are also many many instances where the appropriate agencies did not take action at all, or took it too late, and babies and kids died as a result. Caseworkers have been sued, not as an employee of the government, but personally sued, for making a poor decision in a case. It's impossible to recruit folks into these positions; and the ones who do take these positions, are usually gone within two years. Incredible pressure, low pay.

There is no easy answer. None.

200 Ben Jephazi  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 2:09:12pm
201 reine.de.tout  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 2:14:42pm

re: #183 Gus 802

I would hope that a doctor, an MD, would be able to make a more rational and caring decision about a patient then some bureaucrat reading his or her "enforcement manual".

Another thing is that Federal employees are on subjected to 2,000 nanograms/mL of opiate metabolites for testing while this woman was abused by family services based on 300 nanograms/mL.

My advice to her would be to sue the hospital and family services for several million dollars that way they re-think their drug testing policy. If they want to play hard ball so should this woman.

These agencies are sued when they fail to take action.
You are recommending they be sued because they DID take action.

If you sue government agencies because they fail to take action, then they will write tighter and tighter rules and regs to ensure it doesn't happen again, and then you get what happened here - an OVER reaction.

The problem here is the testing level requiring some action be taken is wayyy to low. I suspect after this incident, somebody is going to be taking a hard look at that.

Like I said - there is no easy answer. There must be a balance; finding and enforcing it is not always easy, and there will be mistakes along the way.

202 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 2:14:42pm

re: #196 3eff Jeff

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

If this hadn't been mentioned yet: the new theory is US Airways flight 808, Honolulu to Phoenix.

I was gonna guess Ajira Airways Flight 316, but yours makes more sense.

203 researchok  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 2:14:50pm

re: #151 EmmmieG

Close. Brigham Young said "This is the Right Place." Joseph Smith had been dead for five years by then.

It would be a good name for a restaurant, and I could see someone using it. That's why I asked.

I stand corrected!

That will teach me not to talk on phone, write memos and comment.

204 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 2:48:09pm

re: #203 researchok

I stand corrected!

That will teach me not to talk on phone, write memos and comment.

Yeah. You should talk on the phone, write memos, comment, track UFO's over California, and track at least one Bilderberger theory.

Otherwise your time is just wasted.

(Full Disclosure: You just happened to pick a small piece of history I know very well.)

205 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 2:49:29pm

BBL.

I have to go let the vampires, I mean the Red Cross, suck out some of my blood.

206 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 3:01:00pm

re: #75 albusteve

multi culti failure...ranting at the Brits while they murder their own by the tens of thousands

I should stand by while fascists are glorified by Americans...why again? This is multi culti failure how?

207 Steve Dutch  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 3:01:06pm

"because for them it’s all about hating Muslims, and they’ll jump in bed with anyone who meets this simple criteria."

One's a "criterion," two or more are "criteria." There's no such thing as "this criteria." It's a Greek thing: spermatozoon, spermatozoa.

Such a vast range of opinia on this site. Well, I have to go pick up a bag of onia at the grocery store, then go home and weed the dandelia out of my lawn.

Seriously, the singular is "criterion."

208 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 3:04:16pm

re: #151 EmmmieG

Close. Brigham Young said "This is the Right Place." Joseph Smith had been dead for five years by then.

It would be a good name for a restaurant, and I could see someone using it. That's why I asked.

I would go into a diner called that. Even more, knowing the reference now.

209 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 11, 2010 3:16:32pm

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