Demon Fighters: The Catholic Church Needs You

Religion • Views: 28,969

The Catholic Church is looking for some good men to fight off an invasion of disembodied malevolent entities.

Citing a shortage of priests who can perform the rite, the nation’s Roman Catholic bishops are holding a conference on how to conduct exorcisms.

The two-day training, which ends today in Baltimore, is to outline the scriptural basis of evil, instruct clergy on evaluating whether a person is truly possessed, and review the prayers and rituals that comprise an exorcism. Among the speakers will be Cardinal Daniel DiNardo, archbishop of Galveston-Houston, Texas, and a priest-assistant to New York Archbishop Timothy Dolan.

More than 50 bishops and 60 priests signed up to attend, according to Catholic News Service, which first reported the event. The conference was scheduled for just ahead of the fall meeting of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, which starts Monday in Baltimore.

Despite strong interest in the training, skepticism about the rite persists within the American church. Organizers of the event are keenly aware of the ridicule that can accompany discussion of the subject. Exorcists in U.S. dioceses keep a very low profile. In 1999, the church updated the Rite of Exorcism, cautioning that “all must be done to avoid the perception that exorcism is magic or superstition.”

Magic? Superstition? You mean there are people who don’t believe that invisible creatures from the Hell Dimension can take possession of human beings, and can only be defeated with the proper incantations? Where are we, in the Dark Ages or something?

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455 comments
1 lostlakehiker  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 3:48:54pm

I am quite certain that exorcism is not magic.

2 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 3:49:39pm

re: #1 lostlakehiker

I am quite certain that exorcism is not magic.

It most certainly is.
It's merely a banishment spell.

3 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 3:49:54pm

re: #1 lostlakehiker

I am quite certain that exorcism is not magic.

What is it? Science?

//

4 albusteve  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 3:52:08pm

silly Catholics, at it again

5 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 3:52:09pm

Any advice on how to banish reality tv from our society?

'Cause I'm pretty sure that's a bigger threat to our civility towards one another.

(Also, Bridezillas is about as concrete of proof of demonic possession as you can get.)

6 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 3:55:15pm

Do you have to be a priest to take this training? Because I think I would rather take on demons than sixth-graders.

7 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 3:55:44pm

The Catholic Church is getting really schitzophrenic on science. Pro-evolution but insisting that demonic possession is real.

8 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 3:55:47pm

Magic

the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature.

Exorcism

to expel or attempt to expel (one or more evil spirits) from (a person or place believed to be possessed or haunted), by prayers, adjurations, and religious rites

*Whistles pass the graveyard*

9 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 3:55:53pm

This just in! Exorcisms have been replaced by psychology, psychiatry, and other forms of modern medicine. As of press time there is science has yet to find one scintilla of evidence that demons exist.

//

10 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 3:56:26pm

re: #8 Varek Raith

Magic

Exorcism

*Whistles pass the graveyard*

Pass the salt please.

//

11 albusteve  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 3:56:42pm

re: #6 SanFranciscoZionist

Do you have to be a priest to take this training? Because I think I would rather take on demons than sixth-graders.

LOL....my mom taught 4/5 grades for nearly forty years...many weary afternoons I'm sure....she loved it tho

12 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 3:57:10pm

re: #6 SanFranciscoZionist

Do you have to be a priest to take this training? Because I think I would rather take on demons than sixth-graders.

no, but you do have to believe...

13 BryanS  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 3:57:48pm

re: #9 Gus 802

This just in! Exorcisms have been replaced by psychology, psychiatry, and other forms of modern medicine. As of press time there is science has yet to find one scintilla of evidence that demons exist.

//

Exactly...more blindness cause by religion and at the expense of science.

14 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 3:57:59pm

re: #12 brookly red

no, but you do have to believe...

I BELIEVE that I would rather take on demons than sixth-graders, then.

15 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 3:58:47pm

re: #6 SanFranciscoZionist

Do you have to be a priest to take this training? Because I think I would rather take on demons than sixth-graders.

Demons wear silly bandz?

16 engineer cat  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 3:59:28pm

re: #6 SanFranciscoZionist

Do you have to be a priest to take this training? Because I think I would rather take on demons than sixth-graders.

do you know some way to tell them apart?

17 albusteve  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 3:59:37pm

maybe if the church televised an exorcism, discussion panel etc, people would take them more serious

18 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 3:59:38pm

re: #14 SanFranciscoZionist

I BELIEVE that I would rather take on demons than sixth-graders, then.

Fine. Here take this bell, this book & this candle and show us what you got kid!

19 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 3:59:58pm

re: #13 BryanS

Exactly...more blindness cause by religion and at the expense of science.

And people. Most of these cases indicate schizophrenia or bipolarism not superstitious demons. They don't need a priest. They need a doctor.

20 reine.de.tout  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:00:15pm
skepticism about the rite persists within the American church.

That's the only part I'm seeing; I know a lot of devout Catholics, and the only one I ever knew who mentioned "exorcism" was the woman whose 7th grade daughter planted some bomb threats around the school. She probably had good cause to hope that exorcism would work.

21 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:00:24pm

re: #17 albusteve

maybe if the church televised an exorcism, discussion panel etc, people would take them more serious

but TV is of the devil... now what?

22 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:01:25pm

re: #17 albusteve

maybe if the church televised an exorcism, discussion panel etc, people would take them more serious

Real Exorcisers of New Jersey

//

23 BryanS  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:02:27pm

re: #17 albusteve

maybe if the church televised an exorcism, discussion panel etc, people would take them more serious

lol...yes. Let's encourage them to do just that. They must not have a strong sense of faith if their religious beliefs embarrass even the priests.

24 jamesfirecat  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:03:51pm

Father Alexander Anderson do you have a comment?

"We are the gods representatives, earthly agents of divine punishment! Our mission is to destroy down to the last wee bit the fools who would oppose our god!"

25 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:03:55pm

re: #7 Obdicut

The Catholic Church is getting really schitzophrenic on science. Pro-evolution but insisting that demonic possession is real.

I've been mulling this statement over since you wrote it. Since Jesus was very open in a few situations about casting out a demon (i'm thinking, for example, of the demon that he sent into the pigs), isn't it sort of expected that a person who believes in the New Testament believes in such a thing?

I mean, i believe that they're real. I don't believe that i've ever seen one, or that they're common, or that i need to worry about them...but i guess i'm wondering and would like to ask an atheist whether it's really more superstitious to believe in a demon than to believe that the Son of God came to earth to die so that we might be saved?

26 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:04:05pm

Here's what I don't get.
If I were a demon, I'd sure as hell would not possess some random fool. I'd possess Obama. Start WW3.
What the hell kind of lame ass evil are these demons who possess kids and the like???

27 researchok  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:04:29pm

New employment options and career choices.

Always a positive sign.
/

28 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:05:02pm

OK, the drone is gassed up & I put holy water on the hellfires... put me in coach!

29 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:06:11pm

re: #26 Varek Raith

Here's what I don't get.
If I were a demon, I'd sure as hell would not possess some random fool. I'd possess Obama. Start WW3.
What the hell kind of lame ass evil are these demons who possess kids and the like???

It's like those UFOs that are always visiting some drunk guy in the Mojave Desert.

//

30 reine.de.tout  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:06:20pm

re: #19 Gus 802

And people. Most of these cases indicate schizophrenia or bipolarism not superstitious demons. They don't need a priest. They need a doctor.

Exactly, and that is the danger of having the "rite of exorcism" blessed by the church, that people might turn to it when what they really need is good mental health care.

I'm skeptical of the process myself; and would prefer to rely on personal prayer. However, honestly - I see no reason to heap scorn on people's beliefs, silly as they may sound to me, when there's little or no evidence those beliefs have had any detrimental effect on anyone.

So . . . later, folks!

31 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:06:35pm

re: #26 Varek Raith

Here's what I don't get.
If I were a demon, I'd sure as hell would not possess some random fool. I'd possess Obama. Start WW3.
What the hell kind of lame ass evil are these demons who possess kids and the like???

kids grow up to be presidents...

Muahhahahaha!

32 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:07:29pm

re: #31 brookly red

kids grow up to be presidents...

Muahhahahaha!

Way too long term.
Just posses him now.
Press the red button.
BOOM.
Evil accomplished.
/Damn, Satan, do I have to do your thinking for you?!
//

33 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:07:42pm

The church is engaging in propaganda again. Well, that's strictly my opinion anyway.

34 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:07:53pm

re: #27 researchok

New employment options and career choices.

Always a positive sign.
/

hmmm, shovel ready jobs?

35 BryanS  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:08:19pm

re: #25 Aceofwhat?

I've been mulling this statement over since you wrote it. Since Jesus was very open in a few situations about casting out a demon (i'm thinking, for example, of the demon that he sent into the pigs), isn't it sort of expected that a person who believes in the New Testament believes in such a thing?

I mean, i believe that they're real. I don't believe that i've ever seen one, or that they're common, or that i need to worry about them...but i guess i'm wondering and would like to ask an atheist whether it's really more superstitious to believe in a demon than to believe that the Son of God came to earth to die so that we might be saved?

Both belief in demons and belief that the son of god came down to earth to offer himself in human sacrifice to scape goat all our sins---yeah, to an atheist they are on the same level.

36 BryanS  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:09:25pm

re: #26 Varek Raith

Here's what I don't get.
If I were a demon, I'd sure as hell would not possess some random fool. I'd possess Obama. Start WW3.
What the hell kind of lame ass evil are these demons who possess kids and the like???

You've seen the Halloween horror movie series Omen, eh?

37 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:09:27pm

re: #32 Varek Raith

Way too long term.
Just posses him now.
Press the red button.
BOOM.
Evil accomplished.
/Damn, Satan, do I have to do your thinking for you?!
//


well now that is an interesting concept...

38 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:09:49pm

re: #30 reine.de.tout

Exactly, and that is the danger of having the "rite of exorcism" blessed by the church, that people might turn to it when what they really need is good mental health care.

I'm skeptical of the process myself; and would prefer to rely on personal prayer. However, honestly - I see no reason to heap scorn on people's beliefs, silly as they may sound to me, when there's little or no evidence those beliefs have had any detrimental effect on anyone.

So . . . later, folks!

OK, but I think it does have a detrimental effect on people especially in 3rd world countries were people are continually being led to believe in the impossible. No sure if it's ever been quantified but we know very well the damage it caused to the world prior to The Enlightenment.

39 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:09:58pm

re: #37 brookly red

well now that is an interesting concept...

He should be fired.
;)

40 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:10:53pm

re: #30 reine.de.tout

Exactly, and that is the danger of having the "rite of exorcism" blessed by the church, that people might turn to it when what they really need is good mental health care.

I'm skeptical of the process myself; and would prefer to rely on personal prayer. However, honestly - I see no reason to heap scorn on people's beliefs, silly as they may sound to me, when there's little or no evidence those beliefs have had any detrimental effect on anyone.

So . . . later, folks!

{reine}

OTOH, the placebo effect is strongest in the mental health disciplines. if someone can turn to prayer, exorcism, yoga, meditation, etc. in lieu of medication and see real improvement, that is something to be celebrated.

if someone turns to the same things and does not see a physician and does not see improvement, that is something to be regretted.

41 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:11:37pm

re: #35 BryanS

Both belief in demons and belief that the son of god came down to earth to offer himself in human sacrifice to scape goat all our sins---yeah, to an atheist they are on the same level.

and that makes sense to me - i don't mind hearing that. thanks.

42 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:11:38pm

re: #25 Aceofwhat?

I've been mulling this statement over since you wrote it. Since Jesus was very open in a few situations about casting out a demon (i'm thinking, for example, of the demon that he sent into the pigs), isn't it sort of expected that a person who believes in the New Testament believes in such a thing?

If you're someone who believes every word of the New Testament is the literal truth, then yes, I guess you do have to believe in demons.

I mean, i believe that they're real. I don't believe that i've ever seen one, or that they're common, or that i need to worry about them...but i guess i'm wondering and would like to ask an atheist whether it's really more superstitious to believe in a demon than to believe that the Son of God came to earth to die so that we might be saved?

43 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:12:05pm

re: #39 Varek Raith

He should be fired.
;)

you can't fire a consultant... you can only stop paying (homage)

44 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:12:22pm

They are hunting witches in Africa.
This kind of thinking does have its negatives.
Bad ones.
Evil ones.

45 engineer cat  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:13:16pm

ask an atheist

sounds like a good concept for a regular newspaper column

46 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:14:22pm

re: #45 engineer dog

ask an atheist

sounds like a good concept for a regular newspaper column

but I don't read the daily worker...

47 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:14:23pm

re: #42 Obdicut

Crap, it ate my response.

Briefly: As an atheist, I don't really care at all about the variety of your religious beliefs. What I care about is how those beliefs inform your behavior. You can believe in demons all day long, but as long as you don't think that belief calls to any form of action, I'm fine with it.

If you believe in demons and believe that you have to do something about them, like exorcising them, then I care very deeply. Not only may the person you want to exorcise be me, but there may be a real underlying problem that needs to be addressed in a serious manner.

48 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:14:45pm

re: #45 engineer dog

ask an atheist

sounds like a good concept for a regular newspaper column

Why do you believe in Satan?
/I was asked this once. Made my head hurt.

49 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:15:11pm

re: #40 Aceofwhat?

{reine}

OTOH, the placebo effect is strongest in the mental health disciplines. if someone can turn to prayer, exorcism, yoga, meditation, etc. in lieu of medication and see real improvement, that is something to be celebrated.

if someone turns to the same things and does not see a physician and does not see improvement, that is something to be regretted.

A placebo should have no effect on someone with a serious mental illness. Other things like yoga or meditation may have therapeutic effect. I would then venture to guess that these people that are afflicted with "demons" already believe in "demons" and are thus going through some other form of mental derangement or hysteria. The very belief in demons will cause per-dispose them to taking on a persona of having been dominated by demons.

50 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:15:12pm

re: #14 SanFranciscoZionist

I BELIEVE that I would rather take on demons than sixth-graders, then.

The devil's in the details, right?

;-P

51 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:15:27pm

re: #47 Obdicut

Crap, it ate my response.

Briefly: As an atheist, I don't really care at all about the variety of your religious beliefs. What I care about is how those beliefs inform your behavior. You can believe in demons all day long, but as long as you don't think that belief calls to any form of action, I'm fine with it.

If you believe in demons and believe that you have to do something about them, like exorcising them, then I care very deeply. Not only may the person you want to exorcise be me, but there may be a real underlying problem that needs to be addressed in a serious manner.

There is a guy from the IRS here to see you Sir...

52 engineer cat  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:15:27pm

re: #46 brookly red

but I don't read the daily worker...

communists and other ideologues are too faith-based for my tastes

53 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:15:36pm

re: #49 Gus 802

A placebo should have no effect on someone with a serious mental illness. Other things like yoga or meditation may have therapeutic effect. I would then venture to guess that these people that are afflicted with "demons" already believe in "demons" and are thus going through some other form of mental derangement or hysteria. The very belief in demons will cause per-dispose them to taking on a persona of having been dominated by demons.

IOW. If I believe in gnomes. Eventually I'm going to "see" a gnome.

54 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:16:09pm

re: #44 Varek Raith

They are hunting witches in Africa.
This kind of thinking does have its negatives.
Bad ones.
Evil ones.

Yep. Not arguing the point. It's just that Africa has a way of turning nearly every train of thought into a bloody end...that poor continent is not exactly a bastion of enlightenment.

55 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:16:10pm

re: #25 Aceofwhat?

I mean, i believe that they're real. I don't believe that i've ever seen one, or that they're common, or that i need to worry about them...but i guess i'm wondering and would like to ask an atheist whether it's really more superstitious to believe in a demon than to believe that the Son of God came to earth to die so that we might be saved?

re: #30 reine.de.tout

I'm skeptical of the process myself; and would prefer to rely on personal prayer. However, honestly - I see no reason to heap scorn on people's beliefs, silly as they may sound to me, when there's little or no evidence those beliefs have had any detrimental effect on anyone.

These two go together some how....

But then...

re: #35 BryanS

Both belief in demons and belief that the son of god came down to earth to offer himself in human sacrifice to scape goat all our sins---yeah, to an atheist they are on the same level.

and

re: #38 Gus 802

OK, but I think it does have a detrimental effect on people especially in 3rd world countries were people are continually being led to believe in the impossible. No sure if it's ever been quantified but we know very well the damage it caused to the world prior to The Enlightenment.

I've always tried to be a good atheist, and not heap scorn on anyone's beliefs. It's not easy.

56 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:16:13pm

re: #47 Obdicut

I'd add: Voodoo Death may or may not be a real phenomenon, but it certainly has some support for it. What this does not mean is that anyone can actually cast a spell and kill someone. What it may mean is that by singling someone out as cursed, a religious figure will alter the attitudes of other people towards that person in a way that's detrimental to their health.

So, one of my big problems with this possession/exorcism thing is that it may make those people who are identified as possessed treated very badly indeed.

57 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:16:15pm

Hmm. Praying for Satan's salvation. There's an idea.

58 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:16:19pm

re: #53 Gus 802

IOW. If I believe in gnomes. Eventually I'm going to "see" a gnome.

Play Fable 3. Those gnomes are mean.

59 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:16:48pm

re: #47 Obdicut

Crap, it ate my response.

Briefly: As an atheist, I don't really care at all about the variety of your religious beliefs. What I care about is how those beliefs inform your behavior. You can believe in demons all day long, but as long as you don't think that belief calls to any form of action, I'm fine with it.

If you believe in demons and believe that you have to do something about them, like exorcising them, then I care very deeply. Not only may the person you want to exorcise be me, but there may be a real underlying problem that needs to be addressed in a serious manner.

very reasonable. thanks.

60 Taqyia2Me  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:17:05pm

re: #22 Gus 802

Real Exorcisers of New Jersey

//

Jack LaLane got a new gig? :)

61 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:17:38pm

re: #60 Taqyia2Me
ROFL

62 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:17:48pm

re: #53 Gus 802

IOW. If I believe in gnomes. Eventually I'm going to "see" a gnome.

I've seen gnomes. They're about eighteen inches tall, gray, and kind of heavy. They like to hang out on people's lawns.

Do you think I should write a book?

63 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:17:59pm

re: #57 eclectic infidel

Hmm. Praying for Satan's salvation. There's an idea.

please allow me to introduce myself...

64 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:18:03pm

re: #55 wrenchwench


I've always tried to be a good atheist, and not heap scorn on anyone's beliefs. It's not easy.

Heh. I like your style...

65 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:18:38pm

re: #62 EmmmieG

I've seen gnomes. They're about eighteen inches tall, gray, and kind of heavy. They like to hang out on people's lawns.

Do you think I should write a book?

Yep. You can title it "The Healing Gnome" and attach a CD with soothing new age music.

//

66 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:18:44pm

re: #63 brookly red

My name is Lu C Fer. LOL

67 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:20:02pm

re: #58 Varek Raith

Play Fable 3. Those gnomes are mean.

Youtube Video
68 jamesfirecat  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:20:26pm

re: #57 eclectic infidel

Hmm. Praying for Satan's salvation. There's an idea.

He's just as much stuck in hell as anyone else there....

69 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:20:43pm

re: #66 PhillyPretzel

My name is Lu C Fer. LOL

not to be confused with Lucy Fur... damn she's hot.

70 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:20:45pm

Tough room tonight.

71 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:20:55pm

Now this would really mean trouble.

Image: 247ee2a3-ba77-4704-b56d-836f1f31e237.jpg

72 JeffFX  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:21:07pm

re: #7 Obdicut

The Catholic Church is getting really schitzophrenic on science. Pro-evolution but insisting that demonic possession is real.

Admitting the supernatural is imaginary would not be good for business.

73 engineer cat  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:21:17pm

re: #62 EmmmieG

I've seen gnomes. They're about eighteen inches tall, gray, and kind of heavy. They like to hang out on people's lawns.

Do you think I should write a book?

they are agents of satan and promote paganism. just like their buddies the pink flamingos

74 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:21:42pm

re: #55 wrenchwench

I've always tried to be a good atheist, and not heap scorn on anyone's beliefs. It's not easy.

Well, I don't think looking at it as "detrimental" is scornful. I suppose it would be if I said "thousands of people have died because of exorcisms and it must be stopped!" Eleventy and all that.

75 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:22:30pm

re: #74 Gus 802

Well, I don't think looking at it as "detrimental" is scornful. I suppose it would be if I said "thousands of people have died because of exorcisms and it must be stopped!" Eleventy and all that.

Although many people are still dying in Africa from their beliefs in "witches". Hmm. Must think.

76 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:23:03pm

re: #56 Obdicut

I'd add: Voodoo Death may or may not be a real phenomenon, but it certainly has some support for it. What this does not mean is that anyone can actually cast a spell and kill someone. What it may mean is that by singling someone out as cursed, a religious figure will alter the attitudes of other people towards that person in a way that's detrimental to their health.

So, one of my big problems with this possession/exorcism thing is that it may make those people who are identified as possessed treated very badly indeed.

well...i'll nitpick here, so forgive me...but one is the creation of a circle of negative attitudes, right and the other is the [attempted] removal of said negative attitudes? WRT exorcism, it's the self-identified 'sufferer' who is approaching a religious leader for assistance, not religious leaders randomly afflicting otherwise healthy people with the notion they're possessed?

i should think that the application of a curse and the removal of a curse, while appearing similarly superstitious, are at least differentiated by their intent?

77 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:23:17pm

Everyone - religious or not - should read this, and we should have a couple of threads about it.

(ha ha, like that's going to happen)

78 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:23:35pm

re: #55 wrenchwench

I think the difference is social norms. Sure most atheists think the stories about Jonah and the Whale, Noah's ark, etc are untrue but we encounter people with these beliefs fairly frequently. Something like Scientology which is more recent seems really silly. Same with demonic possession, it's a long discarded idea making a comeback and it does seem silly to most rational people.
I do think it's harmful. Most cases of "possession" are people who really need medical attention and I don't think exorcisms are helpful. If they were then doctors would perform them.

79 engineer cat  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:24:10pm

Ask Mr Atheist

archie s of paramus, n.j. writes, "mr atheist, do you believe..."

no


check your local papers for next week's column...

80 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:25:16pm

re: #75 Gus 802

Although many people are still dying in Africa from their beliefs in "witches". Hmm. Must think.

I don't see your comment as scornful at all. I just don't know where I can be critical without offending religious people that I respect. Sometimes I need to not care about being offensive, other times I do need to care.

Like you said, Hmm. Must think.

81 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:25:34pm

beer run...

82 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:26:14pm

re: #78 Killgore Trout

I think the difference is social norms. Sure most atheists think the stories about Jonah and the Whale, Noah's ark, etc are untrue but we encounter people with these beliefs fairly frequently. Something like Scientology which is more recent seems really silly. Same with demonic possession, it's a long discarded idea making a comeback and it does seem silly to most rational people.
I do think it's harmful. Most cases of "possession" are people who really need medical attention and I don't think exorcisms are helpful. If they were then doctors would perform them.

Thought experiment!
If Scientology were 2000 years old, would it be just as respected as Christianity or Islam?

83 Firstinla  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:26:19pm

Perhaps it is the Catholic Church itself that needs the exorcism.

84 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:26:21pm

re: #65 Gus 802

Yep. You can title it "The Healing Gnome" and attach a CD with soothing new age music.

//

new age music is the devil. i say this as someone who appreciates decent music, not as a Christian/

85 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:26:57pm

Being possessed isn't all that bad, sure the demons make you do vile, horrible, and cruel things against your will sometimes, but damn do they ever know how to chat up the babes...and talk about endless stamina?

///you don't need Viagra if the demon's have got ya... :p

86 BryanS  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:27:08pm

re: #72 JeffFX

Admitting the supernatural is imaginary would not be good for business.

Over time, the Catholic Church is slowly converting the entire Bible into one big allegory. There's less magical mystery left presented as fact every day. Claiming allegory was the original intent of the text is the only way out of the problem where many things were wrong simply because people didn't know as much about the world when the book was written.

87 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:27:18pm

re: #80 wrenchwench

I don't see your comment as scornful at all. I just don't know where I can be critical without offending religious people that I respect. Sometimes I need to not care about being offensive, other times I do need to care.

Like you said, Hmm. Must think.

It depends on who you are talking to.
I've encountered some people who were offended by my mere presence. Others didn't care so much.

88 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:27:44pm

re: #77 negativ

Everyone - religious or not - should read this, and we should have a couple of threads about it.

(ha ha, like that's going to happen)

dang, that reminds me. i put down my Dawkins and i need to pick it back up.

thanks for that-

89 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:29:08pm

re: #76 Aceofwhat?

well...i'll nitpick here, so forgive me...but one is the creation of a circle of negative attitudes, right and the other is the [attempted] removal of said negative attitudes? WRT exorcism, it's the self-identified 'sufferer' who is approaching a religious leader for assistance, not religious leaders randomly afflicting otherwise healthy people with the notion they're possessed?

No, not necessarily. It may be an individual who the community has decided is possessed.


i should think that the application of a curse and the removal of a curse, while appearing similarly superstitious, are at least differentiated by their intent?

Definitely. However, saying flat out that someone was possessed by a demon definitely changes the way that they will be dealt with for the rest of their lives. It's not a neutral thing. It's a negative event, and so the Catholic church confirming it is damaging to that person.

Not to mention that whatever underlying mental or physical problem exists is unlikely to be adequately addressed by the exorcism.

90 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:29:23pm

re: #84 Aceofwhat?

new age music is the devil. i say this as someone who appreciates decent music, not as a Christian/

That some of the irony. New age is considered, not sure if it's "off the devil", but it's certainly frowned upon by the Holy See.

91 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:29:43pm

re: #82 Varek Raith

Thought experiment!
If Scientology were 2000 years old, would it be just as respected as Christianity or Islam?

i dunno. are you sure it isn't the pervasive, naked trade of dollars for "clearing" which makes Scientology stand out in all of the wrong ways?

i mean, if the Catholic church were still selling indulgences, wouldn't our attitude towards them be far different?

92 BryanS  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:31:12pm

re: #76 Aceofwhat?

well...i'll nitpick here, so forgive me...but one is the creation of a circle of negative attitudes, right and the other is the [attempted] removal of said negative attitudes? WRT exorcism, it's the self-identified 'sufferer' who is approaching a religious leader for assistance, not religious leaders randomly afflicting otherwise healthy people with the notion they're possessed?

i should think that the application of a curse and the removal of a curse, while appearing similarly superstitious, are at least differentiated by their intent?

As long as the practice of the faith is left to the faithful. Exorcism seems anachronistic in today's age, but as long as I and others not of the faith are not subjected to it, sure go ahead and do it.

93 JeffFX  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:31:45pm

re: #86 BryanS

Over time, the Catholic Church is slowly converting the entire Bible into one big allegory. There's less magical mystery left presented as fact every day. Claiming allegory was the original intent of the text is the only way out of the problem where many things were wrong simply because people didn't know as much about the world when the book was written.

Once they lose the supernatural elements of their dogma, you're really just left with a social club.

On a related note, considering that we know the original sin story isn't true, so no god had to sacrifice part of itself to itself to appease itself, I'm not sure why anyone continues to believe other than being resistant to new information.

94 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:32:22pm

re: #80 wrenchwench

I don't see your comment as scornful at all. I just don't know where I can be critical without offending religious people that I respect. Sometimes I need to not care about being offensive, other times I do need to care.

Like you said, Hmm. Must think.

I think if we stick with the idea of exorcisms and not the people. Heck, I'm probably the second generation (on my mother's side) not to believe in those things. I'm pretty sure my grandparents believed in exorcisms given their deep Catholicism (Spain). Which reminds me. A lot of these specific beliefs are still held as true in the proverbial "Old World".

95 jamesfirecat  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:32:51pm

re: #82 Varek Raith

Thought experiment!
If Scientology were 2000 years old, would it be just as respected as Christianity or Islam?

Depends, is it still raking in hordes of money off the backs of the people who believe in it in one of the most blatant manner's imaginable?

96 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:33:19pm

re: #82 Varek Raith

Thought experiment!
If Scientology were 2000 years old, would it be just as respected as Christianity or Islam?

Certainly. I have no doubt about that.

97 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:33:25pm

re: #7 Obdicut

The Catholic Church is getting really schitzophrenic on science. Pro-evolution but insisting that demonic possession is real.

But but but demonic possession is AWESOME

98 BryanS  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:33:55pm

re: #82 Varek Raith

Thought experiment!
If Scientology were 2000 years old, would it be just as respected as Christianity or Islam?

Probably. Would also help if they fought a few wars, instituted a few faith based governments base don their religion, and threatened to kill people if they didn't convert.

99 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:34:00pm

re: #87 Varek Raith

It depends on who you are talking to.
I've encountered some people who were offended by my mere presence. Others didn't care so much.

Posting here, I don't know who the hell I'm talking to. Even if I look at the "Show Users" list, ya never know who's reading and not registered, or who will log in later and read the thread.

Although I've never personally met anyone who posts here, there are some religious members I respect and/or even like very much, and I would regret offending them. However, I find this one of the few places I can comfortably be "out" as an atheist, as long as I spell it correctly.

100 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:34:08pm

Eek. I think I just said the secular version of "hate the sin not the sinner."

101 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:35:09pm

re: #99 wrenchwench

Posting here, I don't know who the hell I'm talking to. Even if I look at the "Show Users" list, ya never know who's reading and not registered, or who will log in later and read the thread.

Although I've never personally met anyone who posts here, there are some religious members I respect and/or even like very much, and I would regret offending them. However, I find this one of the few places I can comfortably be "out" as an atheist, as long as I spell it correctly.

Oh, right. I forgot about the forum...
My post was more about people in your... non-Lizardoid life.
:)

102 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:35:22pm

re: #100 Gus 802

Eek. I think I just said the secular version of "hate the sin not the sinner."

It's deeeply ingrained....

103 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:35:56pm

DEMONS!!!!

Youtube Video

Argento rules

104 jamesfirecat  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:36:16pm

re: #98 BryanS

and threatened to kill people if they didn't convert.


Yeah Scientology only does that these days to the people who do convert and then have second thoughts...

(Lest we forget the reason that 4chan is the good guys in that particular fight...)

105 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:36:27pm

re: #100 Gus 802

Eek. I think I just said the secular version of "hate the sin not the sinner."

It's so much easier if you just hate every single thing in existence.
;)
/

106 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:36:46pm

re: #101 Varek Raith

Oh, right. I forgot about the forum...
My post was more about people in your... non-Lizardoid life.
:)

Oh, them. I've already offended 'em all, except Mr. w. And him too, once in a while.

107 BryanS  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:36:48pm

re: #93 JeffFX

Once they lose the supernatural elements of their dogma, you're really just left with a social club.

On a related note, considering that we know the original sin story isn't true, so no god had to sacrifice part of itself to itself to appease itself, I'm not sure why anyone continues to believe other than being resistant to new information.

They just state the allegory is the truth. Really when you get that far down the path, it is a blind faith that keeps things going without any evidence.

108 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:36:54pm

re: #82 Varek Raith

Thought experiment!
If Scientology were 2000 years old, would it be just as respected as Christianity or Islam?

Given a long enough timeline, we'll eventually execute each other for having felonious Prethoughts.

109 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:37:38pm

re: #105 Varek Raith

It's so much easier if you just hate every single thing in existence.
;)
/

Thus Spake Gusathustra!

//Grumble

/

110 RadicalModerate  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:37:42pm

Definition of irony:

1773 Boston Tea Party: Staged to protest levies against imported goods.
2010 Tea Party: Support protectionist levies against imported goods.

Throwing Free Trade Overboard

DESPITE his failure to conclude a trade deal with South Korea this week, President Obama has put free trade at the top of his agenda. That’s in part because the White House and the newly empowered Republican leadership see it as one of the few places where they can work together.

But those expectations could be upset by an unexpected force: the Tea Party. Strangely, for a movement named after an 18th-century protest against import levies, Tea Partyers are largely skeptical about free trade’s benefits — according to a recent poll by NBC and The Wall Street Journal, 61 percent of Tea Party sympathizers believe it has hurt the United States.

The movement has already forced the Republicans to alter their agenda in several policy areas. Should the same thing happen with free trade, America’s stance toward open markets and globalization could shift drastically.

111 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:39:39pm

re: #110 RadicalModerate

Definition of irony:

1773 Boston Tea Party: Staged to protest levies against imported goods.
2010 Tea Party: Support protectionist levies against imported goods.

Throwing Free Trade Overboard

Would it kill people to learn about the movement they are bandwagoning is attempting to base itself on?!?!
Oy.

112 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:39:51pm

re: #89 Obdicut

No, not necessarily. It may be an individual who the community has decided is possessed.

1600 this is not. AFAIK, one has to work to convince a priest that one is legitimately possessed, not the other way around. i am sure that there are remote exceptions to fit your hypothesis, but i am trying to speak in generalities.

Definitely. However, saying flat out that someone was possessed by a demon definitely changes the way that they will be dealt with for the rest of their lives. It's not a neutral thing. It's a negative event, and so the Catholic church confirming it is damaging to that person.

I am having trouble understanding how this is anything more than your opinion. If it is, that's fine. But if we're simply establishing our opinions, it seems more sensible to propose that in general, saying that someone was possessed by a demon and then healed by a priest is a faith-building event, not a damaging event.

Not to mention that whatever underlying mental or physical problem exists is unlikely to be adequately addressed by the exorcism.


Again, this is where numbers would be helpful.

For example:

X% believe they are possessed and seek help from a priest. I postulate four legitimate outcomes.

X/a are ministered to and recover well
X/b are ministered to, don't recover, and take the priest's advice to see a physician
X/c are ministered to and don't recover, and don't see a physician despite their priest's encouragement to the contrary
X/d are ministered to and don't recover, and aren't instructed to see a physician.

So X/a definitely benefited from the practice and X/d definitely suffered from the practice. I have no idea what those percentages are, but it seems difficult to move from conjecture to objective statements without them.

113 BryanS  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:39:57pm

re: #104 jamesfirecat

Yeah Scientology only does that these days to the people who do convert and then have second thoughts...

(Lest we forget the reason that 4chan is the good guys in that particular fight...)

Yes...they do the modern American version of killing off non-believers--sue the heck out of anyone over copyright infringement :)

114 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:41:53pm

re: #112 Aceofwhat?

Is that...math???
.
.
.
Witch.
/

115 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:41:55pm

re: #93 JeffFX

On a related note, considering that we know the original sin story isn't true...

Well...we know the earth wasn't created 6k years ago. But that's not the same thing.

116 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:42:25pm

re: #114 Varek Raith

Is that...math???
.
.
.
Witch.
/

but...WUB dressed me up like this.../

117 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:42:55pm

re: #115 Aceofwhat?

Well...we know the earth wasn't created 6k years ago. But that's not the same thing.

And I don't think Adam was created from dirt.
Nor was Eve from his rib.
Does that make them...
Clones?

118 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:43:52pm

re: #110 RadicalModerate

Definition of irony:

1773 Boston Tea Party: Staged to protest levies against imported goods.
2010 Tea Party: Support protectionist levies against imported goods.

Throwing Free Trade Overboard

Yep. The far right + the far left = new levels of fail.

119 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:44:53pm

Oh noz! Someone registered to post a complaint about a tag!

//

120 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:44:54pm

re: #117 Varek Raith

And I don't think Adam was created from dirt.
Nor was Eve from his rib.
Does that make them...
Clones?

Heh.

It's ok not to believe that. Hell, it's eminently understandable. But Jeff knows that the story is untrue. I didn't know, so i'm eager to learn something new...

121 JeffFX  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:45:03pm

re: #115 Aceofwhat?

Well...we know the earth wasn't created 6k years ago. But that's not the same thing.

We know we evolved from simpler lifeforms, and there was no need for outside intervention. One can believe in a god of the (ever shrinking) gaps in our knowledge, and pretend that a supernatural being created the big bang, or guided evolution, but that still invalidates the original sin story and to my mind Christianity.

122 BryanS  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:45:05pm

re: #115 Aceofwhat?

Well...we know the earth wasn't created 6k years ago. But that's not the same thing.

It means Genesis and the stories of Adam and Eve, the basis for the belief in original sin, are not factually true. The faithful have to believe in the truth of that story as allegory in order to justify the doctrine of original sin and the reason for redemption by Christ.

123 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:45:50pm

I have this absurd image of priests in their outfits with big stacks of Magic cards.

124 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:46:29pm

re: #123 Conservative Moonbat

I have this absurd image of priests in their outfits with big stacks of Magic cards.

Mana tap!

125 Locker  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:46:40pm

Real life isn't amazing enough for these bucket heads that they have to add "drama" and "mystery" to it with all this bullshit. I guess that could be the source of the phrase "detached from reality".

126 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:46:47pm

re: #119 Gus 802

Oh noz! Someone registered to post a complaint about a tag!

//

The Magical Balance Fairy is a MAN!

127 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:47:33pm

re: #126 wrenchwench

The Magical Balance Fairy is a MAN!

And he's wearing baby doll shoes!

//

128 prairiefire  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:48:24pm

re: #127 Gus 802

And he's wearing baby doll shoes!

//

Black patent leather Mary Janes.

129 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:48:25pm

re: #126 wrenchwench

The Magical Balance Fairy is a MAN!

is that a Barney Farnk joke?

130 RadicalModerate  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:49:04pm

re: #113 BryanS

Yes...they do the modern American version of killing off non-believers--sue the heck out of anyone over copyright infringement :)

The Church of Scientology is not beyond killing people who dare to leave their flock and attempt to expose them - do a lookup of Lisa McPherson and "Rehabilitation Project Force" as starting points.

131 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:51:07pm

re: #112 Aceofwhat?

1600 this is not. AFAIK, one has to work to convince a priest that one is legitimately possessed, not the other way around. i am sure that there are remote exceptions to fit your hypothesis, but i am trying to speak in generalities.

You're not understanding what I mean. By legitimizing the very idea of possession, the church is allowing speculation on it. In a town in Africa, with no parish priest but only one who visits, there may be someone identified by the community as possessed, to their detriment.

I am not so sanguine about the priests in those regions being utterly reasonable on the subject, either.

I am having trouble understanding how this is anything more than your opinion. If it is, that's fine. But if we're simply establishing our opinions, it seems more sensible to propose that in general, saying that someone was possessed by a demon and then healed by a priest is a faith-building event, not a damaging event.

Seriously? You think that having someone believe that they were possessed by a demon and then were healed of it is, overall, a good experience for them? Seriously? You're not joking?

132 Tigger2005  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:51:08pm

If that Audrey Rose story was based on fact, I personally think the girl may have been raped, perhaps by a fellow student she trusted. She may have believed she was at least partially at fault and even that she was somehow "evil" because she felt that something she did must have "invited" the rape. Seeing it as attack and possession by a demonic entity was easier for her than facing the reality of what happened.

Pure speculation of course. But it's interesting that a girl from a sheltered, religious family goes to college and suddenly gets "possessed." And if it's a true story and my explanation of it is right, then her family's unquestioning acceptance that she was possessed may have indirectly allowed a rapist to escape justice.

133 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:51:24pm

re: #122 BryanS

It means Genesis and the stories of Adam and Eve, the basis for the belief in original sin, are not factually true.

Again (and to Jeff as well), which items are stated as facts that can be disproven? Jeff mentioned evolution, which is (to me) is quite real but not proof that God doesn't exist.

I'm not looking for a knock-down, drag-out debate, don't worry, i'm just under the impression that the Genesis story (like most everything in the Bible) doesn't provide enough actual facts to permit us to fully prove or disprove it.

134 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:52:42pm

re: #131 Obdicut
Seriously? You think that having someone believe that they were possessed by a demon and then were healed of it is, overall, a good experience for them? Seriously? You're not joking?

/ I used to be a liberal...

135 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:53:57pm

re: #131 Obdicut

You're not understanding what I mean. By legitimizing the very idea of possession, the church is allowing speculation on it. In a town in Africa, with no parish priest but only one who visits, there may be someone identified by the community as possessed, to their detriment.

I am not so sanguine about the priests in those regions being utterly reasonable on the subject, either.

Seriously? You think that having someone believe that they were possessed by a demon and then were healed of it is, overall, a good experience for them? Seriously? You're not joking?

And that person will forever be branded.

136 JeffFX  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:54:31pm

re: #133 Aceofwhat?

Again (and to Jeff as well), which items are stated as facts that can be disproven? Jeff mentioned evolution, which is (to me) is quite real but not proof that God doesn't exist.

I'm not looking for a knock-down, drag-out debate, don't worry, i'm just under the impression that the Genesis story (like most everything in the Bible) doesn't provide enough actual facts to permit us to fully prove or disprove it.

Not proof that a god doesn't exist, though I see no reason for one to be real when the rest are imaginary, but we know that original sin, and thus Jesus dieing to forgive us just doesn't match up with reality.

137 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:55:31pm

re: #131 Obdicut

You're not understanding what I mean. By legitimizing the very idea of possession, the church is allowing speculation on it. In a town in Africa, with no parish priest but only one who visits, there may be someone identified by the community as possessed, to their detriment.

I am not so sanguine about the priests in those regions being utterly reasonable on the subject, either.

Ok, fine. Africa is africa. I'm not sanguine (love that word, by the way, nice job there) about most people in those regions being utterly reasonable on most subjects. Perhaps i should have specified that i am speaking in the context of the US, although in my defense, that's the context of the article posted by Charles.

Seriously? You think that having someone believe that they were possessed by a demon and then were healed of it is, overall, a good experience for them? Seriously? You're not joking?

No. But the person coming to the priest is already convinced that they were possessed. Given that, yes, a successful placebo treatment is always preferable to a medication-based treatment. Any psychiatrist who isn't trying to line their pockets will tell you that.

138 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:56:45pm

re: #136 JeffFX

Not proof that a god doesn't exist, though I see no reason for one to be real when the rest are imaginary, but we know that original sin, and thus Jesus dieing to forgive us just doesn't match up with reality.

3rd time you've made a general statement like that. What specifically, to you, doesn't line up with what we specifically know in a manner that, to you, wholly invalidates the concept of original sin?

139 BryanS  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:57:01pm

re: #130 RadicalModerate

The Church of Scientology is not beyond killing people who dare to leave their flock and attempt to expose them - do a lookup of Lisa McPherson and "Rehabilitation Project Force" as starting points.

They're even more evil than I thought.

140 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:57:05pm

re: #131 Obdicut


Seriously? You think that having someone believe that they were possessed by a demon and then were healed of it is, overall, a good experience for them? Seriously? You're not joking?

If that is their rationalisation or coping mechanism for dealing with severe stressors or psychopathology, it could be worse. It doesn't sound to me like a delusion worth fighting over.

141 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:57:21pm

re: #136 JeffFX

Not proof that a god doesn't exist, though I see no reason for one to be real when the rest are imaginary, but we know that original sin, and thus Jesus dieing to forgive us just doesn't match up with reality.

oh we do? so like the science is settled? LOL...

142 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 4:58:52pm

re: #137 Aceofwhat?

Ok, fine. Africa is africa. I'm not sanguine (love that word, by the way, nice job there) about most people in those regions being utterly reasonable on most subjects. Perhaps i should have specified that i am speaking in the context of the US, although in my defense, that's the context of the article posted by Charles.

But the Catholic Church doesn't just exist in the US. And that's what we're talking about; the position of the Catholic Church.


No. But the person coming to the priest is already convinced that they were possessed. Given that, yes, a successful placebo treatment is always preferable to a medication-based treatment. Any psychiatrist who isn't trying to line their pockets will tell you that.

A) The person may have been convinced they were possessed by others, not by themselves. You cannot assume that they reached that conclusion alone and unaided.
B) They would not reach such an erroneous conclusion if the Catholic Church didn't endorse the idea of possession in the first place.
C) You have created a really bizarre false dichotomy where the only two options are placebo treatment with exorcism or medication. That is totally off-based. The whole range of non-pharmacological therapy is available.

143 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:01:46pm

re: #141 brookly red

oh we do? so like the science is settled? LOL...

ahhh yes jimmah sniping... his pride just couldn't let well enough be.

144 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:02:03pm

re: #130 RadicalModerate

The Church of Scientology is not beyond killing people who dare to leave their flock and attempt to expose them - do a lookup of Lisa McPherson and "Rehabilitation Project Force" as starting points.

How about Auditing Process R2-45:

R2-45 - an enormously effective process for exteriorization, but its use is frowned upon by this society at this time.» — L. Ron Hubbard, The Creation of Human Ability

R2-45 is the act of shooting someone (such as Scientology "apostates" or other perceived enemies) in the head with a .45 (hence the name)...

145 BryanS  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:03:14pm

re: #138 Aceofwhat?

3rd time you've made a general statement like that. What specifically, to you, doesn't line up with what we specifically know in a manner that, to you, wholly invalidates the concept of original sin?

The Bible never states the earth's age is 6000 years. That age was determined by following the story of the genealogy in the Bible back to Adam and Eve. I.e. Adam and Eve were supposed to have lived 6000 years ago at the beginning of the earth. Ergo, the story of Adam and Eve, and the first temptation which is the basis of the doctrine of original sin are in question.

146 lostlakehiker  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:03:46pm

re: #1 lostlakehiker

I am quite certain that exorcism is not magic.

It's one of two things: superstition, or a particular kind of prayer. Take your pick. It's not billed or presented as magic. There's no such thing as real magic, which leaves only entertainment and fraud. Exorcism is clearly not the former, and to be the latter, the practitioners have to know it's just a trick.

I do not believe that the Catholic church holds, in private, that there is no such thing as prayers that are granted.

147 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:04:40pm

re: #141 brookly red

oh we do? so like the science is settled? LOL...

It's NOT science, it's FAITH.

148 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:04:46pm

re: #103 WindUpBird

I've always liked this demon:

Youtube Video
149 JeffFX  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:05:08pm

re: #138 Aceofwhat?

3rd time you've made a general statement like that. What specifically, to you, doesn't line up with what we specifically know in a manner that, to you, wholly invalidates the concept of original sin?

The lack of an adam, eve, garden of eden, serpent, apple, etc...

Since we know for a fact that the original sin as outlined in the bible did not happen, what is the original sin that Jesus is supposed to have died for?

150 JeffFX  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:06:06pm

re: #141 brookly red

oh we do? so like the science is settled? LOL...

Yes, it is. Are you superstitious?

151 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:06:18pm

I'll stop at exorcisms. It's above my atheist pay grade to get into other aspects of Christianity.

152 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:07:06pm

re: #151 Gus 802

I'll stop at exorcisms. It's above my atheist pay grade to get into other aspects of Christianity.

At least our pay grades are better than a nihilist's pay grade.
;)

153 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:08:09pm

re: #144 talon_262

How about Auditing Process R2-45:

R2-45 is the act of shooting someone (such as Scientology "apostates" or other perceived enemies) in the head with a .45 (hence the name)...

ahh all such a trip... these types always talk the talk. but really now if push comes to shove they are toast.

154 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:08:22pm

re: #142 Obdicut

But the Catholic Church doesn't just exist in the US. And that's what we're talking about; the position of the Catholic Church.

Alternatively, saying that a belief is dangerous because crazy people in Africa might take it too far isn't the strongest position. On that basis, everything is dangerous.

A) The person may have been convinced they were possessed by others, not by themselves. You cannot assume that they reached that conclusion alone and unaided.

I am assuming that the priest did not convince them that they were possessed; that they sought out a priest already believing such a thing. I did not step further to assume what you write above.

B) They would not reach such an erroneous conclusion if the Catholic Church didn't endorse the idea of possession in the first place.

Speculation. Further, it's speculation contradicted by our agreement above that belief in Jesus generally includes belief in the things that He did, which include recognizing demons as real.

C) You have created a really bizarre false dichotomy where the only two options are placebo treatment with exorcism or medication. That is totally off-based. The whole range of non-pharmacological therapy is available.

It's not false for this reason: if a placebo or therapeutic treatment is going to work, it's going to work because the patient believes it will work. Non-pharmacological therapy which attempts to persuade a person that their entire system of belief is their doom rather than their salvation seems unlikely to be effective.

155 prairiefire  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:08:29pm

re: #148 eclectic infidel

I've always liked this demon:


[Video]

Me, too. I want her gown.

156 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:09:41pm

re: #150 JeffFX

Yes, it is. Are you superstitious?

no I am a Jew... and like Jesus said we know salvation. Now bite me.

157 lostlakehiker  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:12:35pm

re: #25 Aceofwhat?

I've been mulling this statement over since you wrote it. Since Jesus was very open in a few situations about casting out a demon (i'm thinking, for example, of the demon that he sent into the pigs), isn't it sort of expected that a person who believes in the New Testament believes in such a thing?

I mean, i believe that they're real. I don't believe that i've ever seen one, or that they're common, or that i need to worry about them...but i guess i'm wondering and would like to ask an atheist whether it's really more superstitious to believe in a demon than to believe that the Son of God came to earth to die so that we might be saved?

To my mind, superstition includes credulity. To believe, in the abstract, that thus and so happened long ago and far away, is different from a willingness to believe that right here, in front of you, is a demon-inhabited soul, and that just the right prayer can turn things around.

But even that is not altogether superstitious. It's entirely possible that just the right prayer can indeed turn things around. Maybe no miracle required. After all, just the right "intervention" can sometimes turn a life around, in the purely mundane plane. (Assuming there is any other, and assuming Mundania is indeed mundane.) Superstition has to do with believing stuff that's pretty much self evidently false, if only the will to believe be suspended. For instance, the belief that Bernie Madoff achieved 15% returns like clockwork, year after year, was a form of superstition. "He just has the magic touch, I guess".

Considering some of the things some people do, it's understandable that decent people would conclude it has to be the work of demons. No decent person would act like that.

Trouble is, from what I've seen, there's some people who are just innately bad, who choose evil when good would serve their own wealth or happiness better, who delight in cruelty. They're not out of character when they do the stuff they do. That's just who they are. The worst of them are serial killers.

The answer to that is not exorcism, but execution.

158 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:12:41pm

re: #155 prairiefire

Me, too. I want her gown.

I dunno, I would guess if you had any curves at all that gown wouldn't fit without a lot of double stick tape

159 JeffFX  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:13:50pm

re: #156 brookly red

no I am a Jew... and like Jesus said we know salvation. Now bite me.

So you embrace the social teachings without the supernatural nonsense?

Sorry, not attracted to you.

160 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:13:52pm

re: #155 prairiefire

Me, too. I want her gown.

That gown would definitely work with, um, a larger cup size. Just sayin.

161 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:15:19pm

re: #145 BryanS

The Bible never states the earth's age is 6000 years. That age was determined by following the story of the genealogy in the Bible back to Adam and Eve. I.e. Adam and Eve were supposed to have lived 6000 years ago at the beginning of the earth. Ergo, the story of Adam and Eve, and the first temptation which is the basis of the doctrine of original sin are in question.

Yes. This assumes, of course, Adam and Eve were the first homo sapiens.

AFAIK, Genesis names Adam and Eve as the first two homo sapiens into whom God breathed a soul (i.e. "created in His likeness"). Those are two very different things.

162 prairiefire  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:15:25pm

re: #158 PT Barnum

I dunno, I would guess if you had any curves at all that gown wouldn't fit without a lot of double stick tape

Yeah, I don't have any curves where it counts. : )

163 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:15:39pm

re: #154 Aceofwhat?

Alternatively, saying that a belief is dangerous because crazy people in Africa might take it too far isn't the strongest position. On that basis, everything is dangerous.

Ace, I'm sorry, but you're being incredibily disingenuous. We're talking about a specific belief being endorsed by the Catholic church and its ramifications. It's not 'crazy people' in Africa taking it to far, but uneducated people. Promoting ideas like possession to the superstitious is reprehensible.

I am assuming that the priest did not convince them that they were possessed; that they sought out a priest already believing such a thing. I did not step further to assume what you write above.

You are refusing to deal with the idea of someone who is convinced by others that they are possessed. Why?

Speculation. Further, it's speculation contradicted by our agreement above that belief in Jesus generally includes belief in the things that He did, which include recognizing demons as real.

I didn't agree to that, Ace. Please don't say I did. What I said was that if you treat every word of the New Testament as literally true, you have to accept demons. I don't know why you'd say that I agreed when I hadn't.


It's not false for this reason: if a placebo or therapeutic treatment is going to work, it's going to work because the patient believes it will work. Non-pharmacological therapy which attempts to persuade a person that their entire system of belief is their doom rather than their salvation seems unlikely to be effective.


You really aren't getting it.

Let's say Mary has dark, troubling thoughts, and think she's possessed. She see's a therapist. The therapist helps her realize that what she had thought was possession was her anger against her parents, she deals with it, and is better.

There is no need to persuade Mary that her belief system is wrong.

You created a false dichotomy where the only possible approaches to someone who thought they were possessed were pharmacological or treating it as real. That is wrong, and deeply weird that you are standing by that false dichotomy.

164 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:16:59pm

re: #157 lostlakehiker

sticky note for the next open thread: kick around the subject of people who truly do seem to be or choose evil at every turn. fascinating topic there.

165 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:18:57pm

re: #159 JeffFX

So you embrace the social teachings without the supernatural nonsense?

Sorry, not attracted to you.

oh I do supernatural quite well... as far as your lack of attraction, I am thankful for that.

166 lostlakehiker  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:19:40pm

re: #82 Varek Raith

Thought experiment!
If Scientology were 2000 years old, would it be just as respected as Christianity or Islam?

I'm no fervent admirer of Islam, but given the choice between that and $cientology, it's a no brainer. There is no God but [etc.] and sign me up for the jihad.

Lack of respect does not begin to characterize my estimation of the value or worth of $cientology.

167 JeffFX  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:22:42pm

re: #161 Aceofwhat?

Yes. This assumes, of course, Adam and Eve were the first homo sapiens.

AFAIK, Genesis names Adam and Eve as the first two homo sapiens into whom God breathed a soul (i.e. "created in His likeness"). Those are two very different things.

There weren't two humans, there was a population that at some point you would call human, and someone else might not.

Calling two members of this population Adam and Eve sounds like a rationalization to try to shoehorn old superstitions into modern life.

Good on you for not being a Creationist though like some of the people I love. I wouldn't discuss some of the thoughts I share here with them, because I know how sensitive they are, but you're a rational person who makes some great posts here, so I feel it's OK to discuss. I can stop if I'm getting annoying to anyone but Brooklyn Red.

168 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:22:49pm

re: #112 Aceofwhat?

I am having trouble understanding how this is anything more than your opinion. If it is, that's fine. But if we're simply establishing our opinions, it seems more sensible to propose that in general, saying that someone was possessed by a demon and then healed by a priest is a faith-building event, not a damaging event.

Exorcism absolves people of personal responsibility, hardly a conservative value. Those who target the supposedly possessed person for exorcism can justify all kinds of egregious rights violation in the name of fighting a demon instead of a real person. Those labeled as possessed are either terrorized into conformity or deemed lost to otherworldly forces. Exorcism is a kind of destructive sociopathy, antithetical to understanding reality, an excuse to induce the faithful to abandon interpersonal rationality and understanding in favor of an abject fear of a nebulous supernatural antagonist.

In other words, it's a crock of shit.

169 JeffFX  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:23:58pm

re: #165 brookly red

oh I do supernatural quite well... as far as your lack of attraction, I am thankful for that.

If you don't understand that the supernatural isn't real, why do you claim to not be superstitious? Just embrace it if that's your thing.

170 Mauve Ovid  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:24:09pm

Wht s tr ds nt cs t b tr. 'm nt sr wht vdnc cn ffr t spprt tht ssrtn.

171 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:24:19pm

re: #166 lostlakehiker

I'm no fervent admirer of Islam, but given the choice between that and $cientology, it's a no brainer. There is no God but [etc.] and sign me up for the jihad.

Lack of respect does not begin to characterize my estimation of the value or worth of $cientology.

Bravo. Once you use faith for your own devices... well nothing good can come of it.

172 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:24:49pm

re: #170 Mauve Ovid

You just said A=A. It's axiomatic.

But what did you mean by it, in terms of the current conversation?

173 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:25:16pm

re: #170 Mauve Ovid

What is true does not cease to be true. I'm not sure what evidence I can offer to support that assertion.

Welcome hatchling.

What's true?

174 Aye Pod  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:25:26pm

re: #143 brookly red

ahhh yes jimmah sniping... his pride just couldn't let well enough be.

A whole lot of 'sniping' - ie downdings for very silly remarks - from a bunch of people, it seems. Better get busy chastising everyone else.

Re the 'pride' comment - WTF are you talking about?

PS iceweasel says 'hi'.

175 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:27:07pm

re: #174 Jimmah

A whole lot of 'sniping' - ie downdings for very silly remarks - from a bunch of people, it seems. Better get busy chastising everyone else.

Re the 'pride' comment - WTF are you talking about?

PS iceweasel says 'hi'.

Sniping?
More like incoming artillery.
;)
Hi!

176 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:28:01pm

re: #163 Obdicut

Ace, I'm sorry, but you're being incredibily disingenuous. We're talking about a specific belief being endorsed by the Catholic church and its ramifications. It's not 'crazy people' in Africa taking it to far, but uneducated people. Promoting ideas like possession to the superstitious is reprehensible.

You said africa; following your train of thought is not disingenuous. If you believe that uneducated people in this country or another relevant area are taking it too far, please say so and offer some examples.

You are refusing to deal with the idea of someone who is convinced by others that they are possessed. Why?

Because it's not central to the question. The question, which you raise, is whether seeing a priest is harmful. How the person became convinced is immaterial unless the priest convinced them.

I didn't agree to that, Ace. Please don't say I did. What I said was that if you treat every word of the New Testament as literally true, you have to accept demons. I don't know why you'd say that I agreed when I hadn't.

I'm sorry, how is that not agreeing again? If every word of Jesus is literally true, one has to accept demons. It's what we're both saying, but you don't want me to say that you're saying it? Help me out here.

You really aren't getting it.

Let's say Mary has dark, troubling thoughts, and think she's possessed. She see's a therapist. The therapist helps her realize that what she had thought was possession was her anger against her parents, she deals with it, and is better.

There is no need to persuade Mary that her belief system is wrong.

You created a false dichotomy where the only possible approaches to someone who thought they were possessed were pharmacological or treating it as real. That is wrong, and deeply weird that you are standing by that false dichotomy.

Ok. Rather than speculate whether Mary is the exception or the rule, she falls in the population of "not improved after the exorcism, and saw a physician at the advice of her priest". That does not alter the fact that "improved after exorcism" is also a beneficial outcome; no money was spent on therapy, and the placebo treatment worked.

The harm is in priests who wouldn't refer Mary to a physician. I remain unconvinced that the harm goes beyond that population.

177 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:29:50pm

re: #169 JeffFX

If you don't understand that the supernatural isn't real, why do you claim to not be superstitious? Just embrace it if that's your thing.

OK fine I am superstitious... and I believe 4 leaf clovers bring luck. but the scientific side of me warns me not to risk STDs in my ear by listening to anuses ... did I make that clear?

178 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:30:03pm

The Vatican has done significant harm to Africa with its ridiculous anti-condom crusade.

179 JeffFX  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:31:21pm

re: #177 brookly red

OK fine I am superstitious... and I believe 4 leaf clovers bring luck. but the scientific side of me warns me not to risk STDs in my ear by listening to anuses ... did I make that clear?

Crystal. You're an angry defensive person, and not all that interesting to me. Ace on the other hand is interesting to chat with.

180 Aye Pod  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:31:40pm

re: #175 Varek Raith

Sniping?
More like incoming artillery.
;)
Hi!

Hi Varek! We're actually watching 'Buffy' right now so nothing much incoming here tonight - saving the ammo for another night :)

181 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:32:50pm

re: #179 JeffFX

Crystal. You're an angry defensive person, and not all that interesting to me. Ace on the other hand is interesting to chat with.

please go hang with Ace, I assure you I am not the jealous type.

182 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:33:05pm

re: #167 JeffFX

There weren't two humans, there was a population that at some point you would call human, and someone else might not.

Calling two members of this population Adam and Eve sounds like a rationalization to try to shoehorn old superstitions into modern life.

Good on you for not being a Creationist though like some of the people I love. I wouldn't discuss some of the thoughts I share here with them, because I know how sensitive they are, but you're a rational person who makes some great posts here, so I feel it's OK to discuss. I can stop if I'm getting annoying to anyone but Brooklyn Red.

this is good clean fun...it's not annoying, it's very interesting. it's tough to get into a dry discussion of these things without someone else charging in and claiming 'offense'. thanks for your thoughts so far.

two quick thoughts about why it's not so much of a rationalization to me; let me know what you think.

1. Genesis states that there was already an exterior population of humans. It's where Cain went. I marvel at the creationists who go illiterate, blind, or both at the arrival of that verse.

2. God said that He created Adam and Eve "in His image". So either God looks like we do, in which case i'll be incredibly disappointed at the time of my death, or the reference is to the creation of our soul.

Does that make sense? (note...i'm not asking whether you agree, i have no interest in attempting to 'convert' you, i just want to know if i'm being clear enough for you to follow me)

183 Mauve Ovid  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:33:23pm

s t pssbl t b nn-thst nd b cnsdrd rtnl?

184 Aye Pod  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:33:32pm

Image: supernatural.gif

185 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:33:40pm

re: #178 Varek Raith

The Vatican has done significant harm to Africa with its ridiculous anti-condom crusade.

on THAT we can agree, despite your infidel status/

186 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:34:29pm

re: #183 Mauve Ovid

Is it possible to be a non-atheist and be considered rational?

well it is rough around here... but then again so it was written.

187 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:34:34pm

re: #184 Jimmah

Image: supernatural.gif

would you think less of me if i said that show was surprisingly entertaining at times...?

188 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:35:18pm

re: #174 Jimmah

*smooch*
Your beautiful bride has a mail.

189 jaunte  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:35:25pm

From the AP article:

The training comes at a time when many American bishops and priests are trying to correct what they view as a lack of emphasis on the Catholic teaching about sin and evil after the Second Vatican Council, the series of meetings in the 1960s that enacted modernizing reforms in the church. Many in the American hierarchy, as well as Pope Benedict XVI, believe that the supernatural aspect of the church was lost in the changes, reducing it to just another institution in the world.

A renewed focus on exorcism highlights the divine element of the church and underscores the belief that evil is real.


Does anyone keep a list of recent exorcisms? I couldn't find much written on the subject.

190 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:35:52pm

re: #179 JeffFX

Crystal. You're an angry defensive person, and not all that interesting to me. Ace on the other hand is interesting to chat with.

And i will not ask you for erotic favors in order to continue the conversation, either, so i think that's an extra point for me//

191 Mauve Ovid  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:36:24pm

r: #186 brkly rd
Thnks fr th hd p, brklyn rd. dn't blv n ltrl crtnsm l gnss 6 phss, bt thnk t's t lst pssbl tht thr s crtr. D dny tht pssblty sms lttl cls mndd.

192 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:36:57pm

re: #185 Aceofwhat?

on THAT we can agree, despite your infidel status/

That offends me.
Call me a heretic.

:)

193 BryanS  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:36:59pm

re: #161 Aceofwhat?

Yes. This assumes, of course, Adam and Eve were the first homo sapiens.

AFAIK, Genesis names Adam and Eve as the first two homo sapiens into whom God breathed a soul (i.e. "created in His likeness"). Those are two very different things.

The bible story states they are the first humans, so that is the assumption in Christianity. Again, if that didn't happen 6k years ago, the story is suspect.

194 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:38:36pm

re: #191 Mauve Ovid

Thanks for the head up, brooklyn red. I don't believe in literal creationism a la gensis 6 phases, but I think it's at least possible that there is a creator. Do deny that possiblity seems a little close minded.

Do you consider the possibility of a pink space unicorn?
Or a flying spaghetti monster?
Methinks you do not.

195 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:38:49pm

re: #191 Mauve Ovid

Thanks for the head up, brooklyn red. I don't believe in literal creationism a la gensis 6 phases, but I think it's at least possible that there is a creator. Do deny that possiblity seems a little close minded.

roll with the punches dude, roll with the punches...

196 Aye Pod  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:39:10pm

re: #187 Aceofwhat?

would you think less of me if i said that show was surprisingly entertaining at times...?

Absolutely not! Ice and I love that show. I particularly dig the super fucked situation re the angels, heaven etc. Murky isn't the word.

197 JeffFX  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:40:18pm

re: #182 Aceofwhat?

this is good clean fun...it's not annoying, it's very interesting. it's tough to get into a dry discussion of these things without someone else charging in and claiming 'offense'. thanks for your thoughts so far.

two quick thoughts about why it's not so much of a rationalization to me; let me know what you think.

1. Genesis states that there was already an exterior population of humans. It's where Cain went. I marvel at the creationists who go illiterate, blind, or both at the arrival of that verse.

2. God said that He created Adam and Eve "in His image". So either God looks like we do, in which case i'll be incredibly disappointed at the time of my death, or the reference is to the creation of our soul.

Does that make sense? (note...i'm not asking whether you agree, i have no interest in attempting to 'convert' you, i just want to know if i'm being clear enough for you to follow me)

Yes, very much so. I viewed the land of nod stuff with the other population of people as one of the big plot-holes in the bible, but can see how that fits your worldview.

So you think that only two of a big population had a soul? If that's the case, did only their descendants have souls, or all people newly born to the species? If the former, maybe I'm not religious because I got genes from the souless ones ;>

198 The Left  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:40:53pm

re: #192 Varek Raith

That offends me.
Call me a heretic.

:)

Damn, Saturday nights here are HAWT!

(just checking in-- hi folks, hope you're well)

------------------------------------------

PS Hi Floral-- no worries, understood, more soon!

199 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:40:54pm

re: #193 BryanS

The bible story states they are the first humans, so that is the assumption in Christianity. Again, if that didn't happen 6k years ago, the story is suspect.

This is why i differ with you:

26Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

See?

200 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:40:57pm

re: #176 Aceofwhat?

You said africa; following your train of thought is not disingenuous. If you believe that uneducated people in this country or another relevant area are taking it too far, please say so and offer some examples.

I'm saying that you're being disingenuous when you choose to focus on exorcism in just the United States; obviously, here, it's going to be far less harmful than in Africa or Cambodia or other places with stronger traditions of superstitious belief in such things.

The Catholic Church finds that most suspected cases of exorcism aren't. So those cases are 'taking it too far'. Otherwise, you're going to have to explain what you mean by 'taking it too far'.

Because it's not central to the question. The question, which you raise, is whether seeing a priest is harmful. How the person became convinced is immaterial unless the priest convinced them.

That isn't the question I raised, Ace. My question is whether the entire belief in demonic possession, from start to finish, is harmful. It is not, therefore, immaterial to point out that an individual may be convinced by others that they are possessed.

I'm sorry, how is that not agreeing again? If every word of Jesus is literally true, one has to accept demons. It's what we're both saying, but you don't want me to say that you're saying it? Help me out here.

No, Ace. You said that if one believes in Jesus, one believes in demons. However, a very, very, very large number of Christians don't believe that the New Testament is, word-for-word, literally true. You are casting your own literal biblical belief onto all other Christians. You shouldn't do that.

Ok. Rather than speculate whether Mary is the exception or the rule, she falls in the population of "not improved after the exorcism, and saw a physician at the advice of her priest". That does not alter the fact that "improved after exorcism" is also a beneficial outcome; no money was spent on therapy, and the placebo treatment worked.

So what? The question is whether it was more or less efficacious than other therapy would have been. If your only claim is 'sometimes performing an exorcism would have a placebo effect that was good', then yes, of course. However, that doesn't say anything as to whether A) encouraging people to believe in demonic possession in the first place is harmful or good and B) whether more people who belief themselves demoniacally possessed would be helped by traditional therapy or by 'exorcism'.

I'm glad that you've dropped your false dichotomy; acknowledging your error in making it would be nice, though. You basically implied that therapy and placebo treatment were on the same plane, which is massively insulting to therapists.

Mary also does not fall into the category you described, but a completely different category:

Never went to a priest, sought help from a therapist, and was helped by that therapist.

You might ask yourself why you didn't even bother considering that.

201 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:41:23pm

re: #187 Aceofwhat?

would you think less of me if i said that show was surprisingly entertaining at times...?

I think it's kind of a fun show.
And I don't do much teevee....

202 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:41:51pm

re: #194 Varek Raith

Do you consider the possibility of a pink space unicorn?
Or a flying spaghetti monster?
Methinks you do not.

give the new guy a break... least I take offense.

203 JeffFX  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:42:02pm

re: #183 Mauve Ovid

Is it possible to be a non-atheist and be considered rational?

Depends on where each of us draws the line. I expect we all believe some things that aren't true, and defend those beliefs against new info, so it could be said that no one is rational. We also tend to rationalize our actions after the fact rather than rationally planning them.

204 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:42:23pm

re: #202 brookly red

give the new guy a break... least I take offense.

Bring it on!
I'll throw pineapple at you!
:)

205 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:42:28pm

re: #198 iceweasel

Damn, Saturday nights here are HAWT!

(just checking in-- hi folks, hope you're well)

---

PS Hi Floral-- no worries, understood, more soon!

Hi Ice! Hope you are well

206 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:42:31pm

re: #198 iceweasel

Damn, Saturday nights here are HAWT!

(just checking in-- hi folks, hope you're well)

---

PS Hi Floral-- no worries, understood, more soon!

Cool!
Just a little fright night!
And, stupidity tax.
GAH!

207 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:43:10pm

re: #196 Jimmah

Absolutely not! Ice and I love that show. I particularly dig the super fucked situation re the angels, heaven etc. Murky isn't the word.

likewise. the intra-angel politics were a nice touch, i thought.

208 JeffFX  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:43:13pm

re: #190 Aceofwhat?

And i will not ask you for erotic favors in order to continue the conversation, either, so i think that's an extra point for me//

I really appreciate it, and will even buy you a beer for not wanting to use me for a biting fetish.

209 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:43:28pm

re: #183 Mauve Ovid

Is it possible to be a non-atheist and be considered rational?

It's not really possible to be a human and be completely rational.

210 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:43:40pm

re: #204 Varek Raith

Bring it on!
I'll throw pineapple at you!
:)

bitch I know where you live are buried!

211 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:43:53pm

re: #198 iceweasel

Damn, Saturday nights here are HAWT!

(just checking in-- hi folks, hope you're well)

---

PS Hi Floral-- no worries, understood, more soon!

LOL!
All the really intelligent folks, that can't get a date are here!
Yes, that includes me!

212 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:44:06pm

re: #207 Aceofwhat?

likewise. the intra-angel politics were a nice touch, i thought.

Wife - "Do these wings make my butt look big?"

Husband - "Aw, shit! I'm in hell!"

213 JeffFX  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:44:13pm

re: #191 Mauve Ovid

Thanks for the head up, brooklyn red. I don't believe in literal creationism a la gensis 6 phases, but I think it's at least possible that there is a creator. Do deny that possiblity seems a little close minded.

To completely deny that possibility is absolutely closed-minded, but this thread is about Catholic superstitions.

214 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:44:50pm

re: #209 Obdicut

It's not really possible to be a human and be completely rational.

My ESP is telling me otherwise.

215 Mauve Ovid  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:45:45pm

r: #209 bdct

r: #209 bdct

t's nt rlly pssbl t b hmn nd b cmpltly rtnl.

Ntc tht dd nt sy "cmpltly" rtnl. t sms t m tht ths crwd thnks tht ny dfrnc t th d f nn-mtrl wrld s d fct dtc.

216 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:46:46pm

re: #215 Mauve Ovid

re: #209 Obdicut

Notice that I did not say "completely" rational. It seems to me that this crowd thinks that any deference to the idea of a non-material world is de fecto idiotic.

Eh?
No. While I'm an atheist, I don't care what you believe. I do however care if you push those beliefs on others.

217 JeffFX  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:46:56pm

re: #201 Floral Giraffe

I think it's kind of a fun show.
And I don't do much teevee...

Also a Supernatural fan here, not mad about their recent concept that the soul is the persons feelings rather than the person though, but that's my own hangup.

218 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:47:34pm

re: #197 JeffFX

Yes, very much so. I viewed the land of nod stuff with the other population of people as one of the big plot-holes in the bible, but can see how that fits your worldview.

So you think that only two of a big population had a soul? If that's the case, did only their descendants have souls, or all people newly born to the species? If the former, maybe I'm not religious because I got genes from the souless ones ;>

Great question. I don't really know. I assume that the complete lack of treatment of the subject in the Bible means that the answer is not central to belief in God, or in other words, that either through mixing or through timing, the rest of us got a soul somehow.

I think you're safe to call yourself a 'soulful' atheist/

219 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:47:48pm

re: #216 Varek Raith

Eh?
No. While I'm an atheist, I don't care what you believe. I do however care if you push those beliefs on others.

right back at you.

220 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:47:59pm

re: #215 Mauve Ovid

re: #209 Obdicut

Notice that I did not say "completely" rational. It seems to me that this crowd thinks that any deference to the idea of a non-material world is de fecto idiotic.

A 'non-material' world is a contradiction in terms

I don't think it's idiotic. I think that human beings are wired for belief in unreal things and that it takes quite a bit of disciplined thinking to get away from it. I'm not surprised in anyone who is a religious believer.

I am always amused by those for whom atheists are somehow threatening, though.

221 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:48:12pm

re: #219 brookly red

right back at you.

What am I pushing on you?

222 Mauve Ovid  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:48:13pm

r: #213 JffFX

T cmpltly dny tht pssblty s bsltly clsd-mndd, bt ths thrd s bt Cthlc sprsttns.

Ys bt th fndmntl "sprsttn" f Cthlcsm s tht Gd xsts, s t's wrth ddrssng tht p frnt. Why vn bthr rgng th rst f th fndmntl ssrtn s dnd prr?

223 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:49:13pm

re: #221 Varek Raith

What am I pushing on you?

thats not your hand? Ewwww!

224 Mauve Ovid  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:49:21pm

r: #220 bdct

'nn-mtrl' wrld s cntrdctn n trms

dn't thnk t's dtc. thnk tht hmn bngs r wrd fr blf n nrl thngs nd tht t tks qt bt f dscplnd thnkng t gt wy frm t. 'm nt srprsd n nyn wh s rlgs blvr.

m lwys msd by ths fr whm thsts r smhw thrtnng, thgh.


m n n wy thrtnd, jst crs.

225 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:49:44pm

re: #222 Mauve Ovid

Because a belief in God doesn't necessarily connect with a belief that something needs to happen in the real world, involving other people.

I made a post about this above. See #47.

226 BryanS  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:49:51pm

re: #199 Aceofwhat?

This is why i differ with you:

26Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

See?

God was speaking in the "royal we" in that case. It is clear from the passage that the claim is that god was creating man for the first time.

227 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:51:16pm

re: #214 Varek Raith

My ESP is telling me otherwise.

God just told me Obdicut was right. Just now. And for the record, i don't appreciate His siding with an atheist.

228 Mauve Ovid  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:51:34pm

r: #216 Vrk Rth

h?
N. Whl 'm n thst, dn't cr wht y blv. d hwvr cr f y psh ths blfs n thrs.

gss thn tht th crrncy nds t b dstryd nd r-ssd wtht Gd n t, nd Chrstms b rmvd s Ntnl hldy, nd hlf f th S cts rnmd.

229 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:51:38pm

re: #224 Mauve Ovid

I am in no way threatened, just curious.

You're coming off as ultra-defensive. Further, your reference to 'this crowd' implies that everyone here thinks the same way. Though there's quite a few atheists on LGF, we're in no way the majority.

230 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:52:14pm

re: #228 Mauve Ovid

That would be a good example of the ultra-defensiveness, right there.

231 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:52:30pm

Later, lizards.

232 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:52:36pm

re: #228 Mauve Ovid

I guess then that the currency needs to be destroyed and re-issued without God on ti, and Christmas be removed as a National holiday, and half of the US cities renamed.

Eh?
I'm lost.

233 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:52:52pm

re: #227 Aceofwhat?

God just told me Obdicut was right. Just now. And for the record, i don't appreciate His siding with an atheist.

Seroquel 100 mg twice daily preferably with a meal...

234 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:52:58pm

re: #215 Mauve Ovid

re: #209 Obdicut

Notice that I did not say "completely" rational. It seems to me that this crowd thinks that any deference to the idea of a non-material world is de fecto idiotic.

really? i make no bones about my Christianity and it's the subject on which i receive the least contention. disagreement is not analogous to disdain, remember.

235 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:53:36pm

re: #211 Floral Giraffe

Not quite true...
Have to go put the pretty on.
Expectations very low.
SIGH.
Later Taters.
Ice & Jimmah, be well!

236 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:54:03pm

re: #234 Aceofwhat?

really? i make no bones about my Christianity and it's the subject on which i receive the least contention. disagreement is not analogous to disdain, remember.

What he said.
I only get ticked at people who tell me I'll suffer for eternity in hell.
Or was it New Jersey?
I can never remember.

237 Mauve Ovid  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:54:14pm

r: #230 bdct

Tht wld b gd xmpl f th ltr-dfnsvnss, rght thr.

thnk tht Chrstnty rcvs qt bt f bs hr, nd s whn qstn t m clld tlr dfnsv. gss ths s wht stnds fr dscrs.

238 jaunte  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:54:17pm

Is Killgore around?

If demons inhabit an individual, how did they get there in the first place? Deliverance ministers are in agreement as to several root causes of demoniac infestation. Involvement with the occult is seen as one of the most common causes. The use of horoscopes, tarot cards, ouija boards, runestones, and the like are seen as excellent ways to become possessed. According to Richard Ing, a deliverance minister from Hawaii, mere ownership of any occult paraphernalia can spell trouble; "These cursed things bring strange diseases that doctors cannot diagnose, divorces, rebellious children, arguments, accidents, and oppression." 8 It should be noted that Ing also claims that statues of the Virgin Mary, paintings of Roman gods, and even little ceramic frogs can produce the same effect.

Why frogs? Frank and Ida Mae Hammond explained, "These are classified among the creatures mentioned in Deut. 14: 7-19 as being unclean and abominable. They are types of demon spirits."
[Link: www.ntskeptics.org...]

239 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:54:18pm

re: #227 Aceofwhat?

If god exists, he would completely prefer atheists.

We don't bug him all the damn time.

240 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:54:23pm

re: #228 Mauve Ovid

I guess then that the currency needs to be destroyed and re-issued without God on ti, and Christmas be removed as a National holiday, and half of the US cities renamed.

don't worry it will be presented... for now just stay on topic.

241 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:55:16pm

re: #237 Mauve Ovid

I think that Christianity recieves quite a bit of abuse here, and so when I question it I am called Utlra defensive. I guess this is what stands for discourse.

Well, if you think that atheists expressing the belief that Christianity isn't real is 'abuse', then you are indeed someone who finds atheism threatening.

What 'abuse' do you see here?

242 Mauve Ovid  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:55:27pm

r: #240 brkly rd

dn't wrry t wll b prsntd... fr nw jst sty n tpc.

Th qt ws tht n shld nt psh thsm n thrs, wht s mr pshy thn pttng Gd n th crrncy?

243 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:55:33pm

re: #240 brookly red

don't worry it will be presented... for now just stay on topic.

I'd oppose it just on the grounds that it'd be a waste of money.
Loads of money.

244 ozbloke  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:55:39pm

re: #226 BryanS

God was speaking in the "royal we" in that case. It is clear from the passage that the claim is that god was creating man for the first time.

Or 'we' as in the trinity, Father, Son and holy spirit.

245 JeffFX  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:55:48pm

re: #222 Mauve Ovid

Yes but the fundamental "superstition" of Catholicism is that God exists, so it's worth addressing that up front. Why even bother arguing the rest if the fundamental assertion is denied a priori?

Because there appears to be no way we can determine what "caused" the big bang. I put caused in quotes because we can't really say something outside of time has a cause, and time didn't exist before the universe started.

There's no way we can say with certainty that an intelligence didn't precede our universe. Adding an extra intelligence to the chain of events is probably superfluous, but we just don't know. We can discuss various religious doctrines for internal consistency and congruence with reality as we know it to try to determine if they're true, but we can't know if something someone would define as god exists.

Calling a pre-universe intelligence "God" and worshiping it would seem very primitive to me, but that's another discussion.

246 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:56:07pm

re: #226 BryanS

God was speaking in the "royal we" in that case. It is clear from the passage that the claim is that god was creating man for the first time.

Ok, i see what you mean. To me, if God is creating man in his image while there are simultaneously populations of humans living elsewhere, it's clearly not the first homo sapiens, but rather the first homo sapiens that God considers to be the final product (man = body + spirit/soul).

so...good. we both know where we're coming from. successful discussion!

247 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:56:26pm

re: #236 Varek Raith

What he said.
I only get ticked at people who tell me I'll suffer for eternity in hell.
Or was it New Jersey?
I can never remember.

they're not the same thing?

248 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:56:45pm

re: #242 Mauve Ovid

The quote was that one should not push theism on others, what is more pushy than putting God on the currency?

See, I don't find that pushy.
Why?
I never see it.
I spend it.

249 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:57:00pm

re: #242 Mauve Ovid

The quote was that one should not push theism on others, what is more pushy than putting God on the currency?

now you have lost me...

250 JeffFX  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:57:09pm

re: #232 Varek Raith

Eh?
I'm lost.

Trolled again...sigh.

251 JeffFX  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:57:33pm

re: #234 Aceofwhat?

really? i make no bones about my Christianity and it's the subject on which i receive the least contention. disagreement is not analogous to disdain, remember.

You're secure in your beliefs and it shows.

252 ozbloke  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:57:42pm

re: #237 Mauve Ovid

I think that Christianity recieves quite a bit of abuse here, and so when I question it I am called Utlra defensive. I guess this is what stands for discourse.

I discuss, no one yet has been rude to me.
We have a prayer list posted Sundays.

253 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:58:10pm

re: #247 Aceofwhat?

they're not the same thing?

Leela - Who'd a thought that hell actually existed? And that it'd be in New Jersey?

Fry - Actually...

254 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:58:25pm

re: #242 Mauve Ovid

The quote was that one should not push theism on others, what is more pushy than putting God on the currency?

that's history, not evangelism.

255 jaunte  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:58:40pm

re: #248 Varek Raith

See, I don't find that pushy.
Why?
I never see it.
I spend it.

It's hard to find on the credit cards, checks or bank statements.

256 Mauve Ovid  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:59:01pm

r: #245 JffFX

Bcs thr pprs t b n wy w cn dtrmn wht "csd" th bg bng. pt csd n qts bcs w cn't rlly sy smthng tsd f tm hs cs, nd tm ddn't xst bfr th nvrs strtd.

Thr's n wy w cn sy wth crtnty tht n ntllgnc ddn't prcd r nvrs. ddng n xtr ntllgnc t th chn f vnts s prbbly sprfls, bt w jst dn't knw. W cn dscss vrs rlgs dctrns fr ntrnl cnsstncy nd cngrnc wth rlty s w knw t t try t dtrmn f thy'r tr, bt w cn't knw f smthng smn wld dfn s gd xsts.

Cllng pr-nvrs ntllgnc "Gd" nd wrshpng t wld sm vry prmtv t m, bt tht's nthr dscssn.

r: #245 JffFX

Bcs thr pprs t b n wy w cn dtrmn wht "csd" th bg bng. pt csd n qts bcs w cn't rlly sy smthng tsd f tm hs cs, nd tm ddn't xst bfr th nvrs strtd.

Thr's n wy w cn sy wth crtnty tht n ntllgnc ddn't prcd r nvrs. ddng n xtr ntllgnc t th chn f vnts s prbbly sprfls, bt w jst dn't knw. W cn dscss vrs rlgs dctrns fr ntrnl cnsstncy nd cngrnc wth rlty s w knw t t try t dtrmn f thy'r tr, bt w cn't knw f smthng smn wld dfn s gd xsts.

Cllng pr-nvrs ntllgnc "Gd" nd wrshpng t wld sm vry prmtv t m, bt tht's nthr dscssn.

thnk t s nbl ndvr.

257 ozbloke  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 5:59:26pm

re: #252 ozbloke

I discuss, no one yet has been rude to me.
We have a prayer list posted Sundays.

Thats the royal 'we', not the 'trinity'.

258 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:00:16pm

re: #250 JeffFX

Trolled again...sigh.

so exactly why did you all of a sudden you become active after a year of not posting? Inquiring minds want to know LOL

259 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:00:22pm

re: #251 JeffFX

You're secure in your beliefs and it shows.

beer AND flattery? i'll take it, but i'm still not fooling around with you/

260 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:00:32pm

For all we know, aliens created us.
It's a possibility, no?

261 JeffFX  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:00:41pm

re: #258 brookly red

so exactly why did you all of a sudden you become active after a year of not posting? Inquiring minds want to know LOL

I got some help for my depression. Thanks for asking.

262 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:01:06pm

re: #253 Varek Raith

Leela - Who'd a thought that hell actually existed? And that it'd be in New Jersey?

Fry - Actually...

executed to perfection...put me down for an assist.

263 BryanS  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:01:12pm

re: #199 Aceofwhat?

This is why i differ with you:

26Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

See?

I'm not a Biblical expert, but I have read the Bible and it is clear Adam and Eve are the first humans. re: #246 Aceofwhat?

Ok, i see what you mean. To me, if God is creating man in his image while there are simultaneously populations of humans living elsewhere, it's clearly not the first homo sapiens, but rather the first homo sapiens that God considers to be the final product (man = body + spirit/soul).

so...good. we both know where we're coming from. successful discussion!

I'm not a Bible expert by any means, but I have read the Bible and was pretty sure I had the meaning as people would generally understand it reading it.
Just double checking, you should look at the next chapter that makes Adam and Eve being the fist humans very explicit:

[Link: www.biblegateway.com...]

5And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

6But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

and then this

[Link: www.biblegateway.com...]

20And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living

264 ozbloke  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:01:33pm

re: #260 Varek Raith

For all we know, aliens created us.
It's a possibility, no?

That shifts the problem of G-d, it doesn't solve it.
Where did the aliens come from?

265 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:01:55pm

re: #261 JeffFX

I got some help for my depression. Thanks for asking.

i took a couple of months off (i think it was that long) after i was laid off. glad to hear you're doing better...

266 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:02:18pm

re: #264 ozbloke

That shifts the problem of G-d, it doesn't solve it.
Where did the aliens come from?

Some planet.
Far away?
Hoboken.
Yeah.
:)

267 BryanS  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:02:42pm

re: #263 BryanS

heh...copy paste fail, PIMF. But you get the idea.

268 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:02:42pm

re: #260 Varek Raith

For all we know, aliens created us.
It's a possibility, no?

LOL!
Are you trying to avoid the "probe"?
//

269 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:03:18pm

re: #268 Floral Giraffe

LOL!
Are you trying to avoid the "probe"?
//

Figures you'd have one.

270 Interesting Times  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:03:20pm

re: #250 JeffFX

Trolled again...sigh.

I wonder if it's the latest sockpuppet for blocked user Justadummy

271 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:03:48pm

re: #261 JeffFX

I got some help for my depression. Thanks for asking.

well gee I hope your feeling better... my depression was also recently lifted but I don't want to get political... It was just that you fit the profile...

272 jaunte  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:03:55pm

re: #260 Varek Raith

For all we know, aliens created us.
It's a possibility, no?

If God isn't one of us, it's true by definition.

273 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:04:53pm

re: #253 Varek Raith

Leela - Who'd a thought that hell actually existed? And that it'd be in New Jersey?

Fry - Actually...

Damn... no one ever listens to me.

274 ozbloke  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:05:08pm

re: #263 BryanS


5And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

The other race were all lefties who would not work!1!

275 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:05:09pm

re: #272 jaunte

If God isn't one of us, it's true by definition.

Indeed. He'd be an omni-dimensional being.
Or some such awesome terminology.

276 What, me worry?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:05:40pm

re: #272 jaunte

If God isn't one of us, it's true by definition.

Just a slob like one of us?

277 jaunte  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:06:06pm

re: #276 marjoriemoon

Just a stranger on the bus.

278 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:07:05pm

Grumble.

279 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:07:48pm

Where is Walter?

280 What, me worry?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:07:54pm

I was beginning to think, all this exorcism in the workplace sure would make a good The Office episode.

281 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:08:35pm

re: #279 HoosierHoops

Where is Walter?

working me thinks...

282 JeffFX  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:08:43pm

re: #265 Aceofwhat?

i took a couple of months off (i think it was that long) after i was laid off. glad to hear you're doing better...

Thanks!

My crackup was for the same reason, but I was in the hole a lot longer than a couple of months. I lost a job at a company that I contributed significantly to building over 17 years when new management laid off IT, and then had a dream-job disappear from under me when the MBAs burned through all the capital on a couple of extremely over-paid people. Not a good time.

While on the topic: If anyone reading this is feeling so down they can't function, see your doctor. They can help.

283 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:09:21pm

re: #263 BryanS

"and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul"

which is exactly what i'm saying; to God, the important part isn't the five fingers per hand, but the soul.

and the whole purpose of marking Cain was so that he wouldn't get killed by anyone when he left the homestead.

i don't intend to persuade you, only to show what seems to me to be the most rational interpretation.

284 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:10:02pm

re: #282 JeffFX

Thanks!

My crackup was for the same reason, but I was in the hole a lot longer than a couple of months. I lost a job at a company that I contributed significantly to building over 17 years when new management laid off IT, and then had a dream-job disappear from under me when the MBAs burned through all the capital on a couple of extremely over-paid people. Not a good time.

While on the topic: If anyone reading this is feeling so down they can't function, see your doctor. They can help.

I market Pharma... I may like you after all.

285 What, me worry?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:11:11pm

re: #284 brookly red

I market Pharma... I may like you after all.

Did you see Stan Lee on Craig Ferguson? It was super groovy. You could probably catch it online.

286 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:12:29pm

re: #278 Gus 802

Look at your mail, please.

287 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:13:02pm

re: #285 marjoriemoon

Did you see Stan Lee on Craig Ferguson? It was super groovy. You could probably catch it online.

no I have no TV... got a link?

288 JeffFX  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:13:21pm

re: #285 marjoriemoon

Did you see Stan Lee on Craig Ferguson? It was super groovy. You could probably catch it online.


It's the 6/15/2010 episode.
It's 150 days old on Usenet for anyone with access.

289 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:13:43pm

re: #216 Varek Raith

Eh?
No. While I'm an atheist, I don't care what you believe. I do however care if you push those beliefs on others.

Precisely...as a lapsed Methodist and as somewhat of a deist, I take the view that, here in America, one's freedom to practice their religion ends where their fist meets my face.

Simply put, don't force your religious views on others and don't be a dick about it...

290 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:13:49pm

I just got here. Any Warhammer/Warp/Warp Storm comments I need to upding?

291 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:14:49pm

re: #286 Floral Giraffe

Look at your mail, please.

I did before. I don't use Linked. Services these days. Or even any other silly application. They're always trying to add a bunch of junk we don't want or need.

292 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:15:32pm

Stan is still the man... I say buy POWN while it is still cheap.

293 What, me worry?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:15:49pm

re: #287 brookly red

no I have no TV... got a link?

[Link: www.comicsbeat.com...]

There's a lot of episodes with Stan Lee on youtube, but this was the other night.

294 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:16:35pm

re: #282 JeffFX

Thanks!

My crackup was for the same reason, but I was in the hole a lot longer than a couple of months. I lost a job at a company that I contributed significantly to building over 17 years when new management laid off IT, and then had a dream-job disappear from under me when the MBAs burned through all the capital on a couple of extremely over-paid people. Not a good time.

While on the topic: If anyone reading this is feeling so down they can't function, see your doctor. They can help.

heh...i was an MBA who lost their job, if that makes you feel any better...i miscalculated the balance between my VP who supported me and the EVP who never really wanted me in his area in the first place.

295 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:16:48pm

re: #293 marjoriemoon

[Link: www.comicsbeat.com...]

There's a lot of episodes with Stan Lee on youtube, but this was the other night.

thanks

296 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:16:55pm

For the perfumenistas, Ines de la Fressange smells as good as she looks!

297 What, me worry?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:17:07pm

re: #295 brookly red

thanks

de nada

298 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:17:22pm

re: #290 Slumbering Behemoth

I just got here. Any Warhammer/Warp/Warp Storm comments I need to upding?

No, just Duke Nukem:

"I came here to kick ass and chew bubble gum...and I'm all out of bubble gum."

;-P

299 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:18:52pm

re: #298 talon_262

No, just Duke Nukem:

"I came here to kick ass and chew bubble gum...and I'm all out of bubble gum."

;-P

yeah, he's on the auto-upding list too

300 JeffFX  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:18:52pm

re: #294 Aceofwhat?

heh...i was an MBA who lost their job, if that makes you feel any better...i miscalculated the balance between my VP who supported me and the EVP who never really wanted me in his area in the first place.

I hate office politics so much. I really wish it could just be about earning for the company, and treating coworkers with respect.

301 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:20:18pm

re: #294 Aceofwhat?

heh...i was an MBA who lost their job, if that makes you feel any better...i miscalculated the balance between my VP who supported me and the EVP who never really wanted me in his area in the first place.

well it wouldn't be so bad if there were jobs... one has to ask why there are no jobs? oh but wait... that would piss a bunch of people off.

302 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:20:45pm

re: #300 JeffFX

I hate office politics so much. I really wish it could just be about earning for the company, and treating coworkers with respect.

[Link: www.thinkgeek.com...]

303 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:22:23pm

re: #301 brookly red

well it wouldn't be so bad if there were jobs... one has to ask why there are no jobs? oh but wait... that would piss a bunch of people off.

meh. my preference would be to stop pretending that it's our lawmakers' job to make jobs.

304 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:25:51pm

Some trolls are more obvious than others.

305 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:27:06pm

re: #304 Charles

Some trolls are more obvious than others.

Was it a sock?

306 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:29:06pm

re: #305 Varek Raith

Was it a sock?

all i know is that they never answer me...my status as nonpersecuted Christian lizard always seems to be a rough speed bump on troll lane...

307 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:33:44pm

re: #306 Aceofwhat?

all i know is that they never answer me...my status as nonpersecuted Christian lizard always seems to be a rough speed bump on troll lane...

I persecute people by putting pineapple on their pizza.
Would you feel persecuted by that???
/

308 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:38:16pm

re: #307 Varek Raith

I persecute people by putting pineapple on their pizza.
Would you feel persecuted by that???
/

like a witch in Salem!

309 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:38:27pm

re: #303 Aceofwhat?

meh. my preference would be to stop pretending that it's our lawmakers' job to make jobs.

oh God it is so not... they just need to get out of the way.

310 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:39:24pm

MORE DEMONS

Youtube Video
311 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:39:38pm

re: #298 talon_262

Heh, it's just when folks start talking demons/demonic possession, my mind naturally drifts to fiction. And eventually, the 40K stuff.

312 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:40:28pm

The typing with omitting the vowels..how is that done? (besides writing out the sentence and then going back and deleting said vowels)

313 What, me worry?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:41:26pm

re: #312 eclectic infidel

The typing with omitting the vowels..how is that done? (besides writing out the sentence and then going back and deleting said vowels)

It's one of Stinky's secrets.

314 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:41:41pm

re: #312 eclectic infidel

The typing with omitting the vowels..how is that done? (besides writing out the sentence and then going back and deleting said vowels)

There's online filters to do it, I don't know if it's functionality built into LGF

315 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:42:07pm

re: #304 Charles

Aw damnit. Did I miss a demon troll?

316 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:43:25pm

re: #315 Slumbering Behemoth

naw, it was a "Christians don't seem welcome here" troll. and my existence is horribly inconvenient to that variety.

317 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:43:31pm

re: #315 Slumbering Behemoth

Aw damnit. Did I miss a demon troll?

You and me both. But I think all it did was spin its head around a few times without spewing too much goo across the room.

318 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:43:58pm

re: #312 eclectic infidel

The typing with omitting the vowels..how is that done? (besides writing out the sentence and then going back and deleting said vowels)

It's the DisemvowelerTM. Top secret stuff.

319 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:44:41pm

re: #312 eclectic infidel

The typing with omitting the vowels..how is that done? (besides writing out the sentence and then going back and deleting said vowels)

Here.
Th typng wth mttng th vwls..hw s tht dn? (bsds wrtng t th sntnc nd thn gng bck nd dltng sd vwls)

320 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:47:36pm

re: #316 Aceofwhat?

Ah, the "Christian Persecution Complex" was it? People who don't believe in demons/demonic possession and think such things are silly are not persecuting anybody.

It's easy enough to just point the "CPC" types in this direction, and tell them to quit their bitchin'.

321 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:51:03pm

re: #319 Varek Raith

Good. Good. Perhaps in the future LGF trolls will do us the courtesy of pre-disemvoweling their comments.

322 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:51:31pm

re: #320 Slumbering Behemoth

Ah, the "Christian Persecution Complex" was it? People who don't believe in demons/demonic possession and think such things are silly are not persecuting anybody.

It's easy enough to just point the "CPC" types in this direction, and tell them to quit their bitchin'.

bingo2

323 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:00:07pm

re: #319 Varek Raith

Here.
Th typng wth mttng th vwls..hw s tht dn? (bsds wrtng t th sntnc nd thn gng bck nd dltng sd vwls)

vowels are kinda like gubermit employees...

324 JamesWI  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:00:52pm

re: #26 Varek Raith

Here's what I don't get.
If I were a demon, I'd sure as hell would not possess some random fool. I'd possess Obama. Start WW3.
What the hell kind of lame ass evil are these demons who possess kids and the like???

How does a demon possess someone who is already the Antichrist?

///////////

325 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:01:40pm

From Fundies say the Darndest Things:

Quote# 60244

EKET, Nigeria (AFP) – Jeremiah, 10, stares blankly at a window, tears rolling down his burn-scarred cheeks recounting how his father doused him with petrol and set him ablaze accusing him of witchcraft.

He is just one of hundreds of children in southern Nigeria's Niger Delta oil region thrown out of their homes, tortured or even killed after they are branded witches by a new crop of self-styled religious leaders.

Around a dozen phony pastors have been arrested -- one on murder charges after he confessed in a documentary film to having killed 110 child witches. He now says he killed only the witches inside the children, not the children themselves.

At a centre in Eket, Akwa Ibom's oil town, Jeremiah and over 170 other children -- aged between 18 months and 16 years -- have sought or been brought to emergency shelter. Many bear scars of physical torture -- machete cuts, burns or a nail drilled into the head.

It has been more than a year since Jeremiah fled from his home, but he suffered months of abuse at the hands of his parents after he was accused of sorcery.

"We were having a revival at church one night when from nowhere, the pastor's wife stood up to say I was a witch," recounts Jeremiah.

He was immediately locked up at the pastor's house, starved and assaulted with clubs as part of the exorcism exercise.

When he moved back home his father tied a noose around his neck and led him to a nearby school grounds, but apparently developed cold feet.

In minute detail he recounts how over several weeks, his parents locked him up in a room and starved and flogged him. That was before the father torched him, accusing him of being behind his losing a job with an oil firm.

Nigerian pastors, AFP 69 Comments [3/6/2009 6:27:25 PM]
Fundie Index: 11

326 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:01:59pm

re: #324 JamesWI

How does a demon possess someone who is already the Antichrist?

///

now that is one DAMN fine question...

327 What, me worry?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:02:16pm

re: #323 brookly red

vowels are kinda like gubermit employees...

Like, you don't really need em, but they make life so much easier ?

328 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:02:30pm

re: #324 JamesWI

How does a demon possess someone who is already the Antichrist?

///

winner

329 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:03:41pm

re: #325 Gus 802

there are no words

330 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:05:12pm

re: #327 marjoriemoon

Like, you don't really need em, but they make life so much easier ?

more like you really don't need em, but since you were a child it was beaten into your brain that omitting them was INCORRECT.

331 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:05:37pm

21 Demon Test Questions

Do you have a demon? Take this short quiz to find out if you are at risk.

332 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:08:02pm

re: #331 Gus 802

21 Demon Test Questions

Whew! That was close...

Your test score is 20
You are at low risk for demonic oppression/possession.

//

333 What, me worry?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:10:02pm

re: #330 brookly red

more like you really don't need em, but since you were a child it was beaten into your brain that omitting them was INCORRECT.

All of them? I may detest the whole DMV experience, but I'd rather support the side of government issued driver's licenses. Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad. We tolerate you, don't we?

334 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:10:31pm

re: #332 Gus 802

Whew! That was close...

Your test score is 20
You are at low risk for demonic oppression/possession.

//

I scored zero... but don't call me noecon.

335 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:11:35pm

re: #334 brookly red

I scored zero... but don't call me noecon.

Is that short for Noetic conservative?

//

336 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:11:59pm

re: #333 marjoriemoon

All of them? I may detest the whole DMV experience, but I'd rather support the side of government issued driver's licenses. Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad. We tolerate you, don't we?

as a whole no... I got more snipers than a hound has fleas

337 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:12:07pm

re: #331 Gus 802

It says I am at low risk, but it didn't ask the really important ones some in the past here have linked to opening the door to demonic possession: D&D or other role playing games, heavy metal/rock music, and most importantly watching/reading anything Harry Potter.

338 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:13:08pm

re: #335 Gus 802

Is that short for Noetic conservative?

//

wait I gotta consult my we-gee board :)

339 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:13:09pm

re: #337 Slumbering Behemoth

It says I am at low risk, but it didn't ask the really important ones some in the past here have linked to opening the door to demonic possession: D&D or other role playing games, heavy metal/rock music, and most importantly watching/reading anything Harry Potter.

Do you play record album backwards to find hidden messages?

340 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:13:15pm

re: #334 brookly red

I scored zero...

That's only 'cuz you cheated. :P

341 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:13:23pm

I scored 6. Low risk. Heh.

342 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:14:31pm

re: #340 Slumbering Behemoth

That's only 'cuz you cheated. :P

/your right... I prayed first.

343 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:15:00pm

re: #339 Gus 802

Do you play record album backwards to find hidden messages?

What's a record album?
/

Heh, I used to in the past, as a teen. Very disappointing, especially when you're familiar with the concept known as confirmation bias.

344 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:15:07pm

re: #332 Gus 802

Whew! That was close...

Your test score is 20
You are at low risk for demonic oppression/possession.

//

i love how we could answer yes to consulting Satan and asking demons into our lives and still be at low risk...

345 What, me worry?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:16:00pm

re: #336 brookly red

as a whole no... I got more snipers than a hound has fleas

Well, I still think you're groovy. Oh wait, that's the other thread.

346 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:16:13pm

re: #342 brookly red

/your right... I prayed first.

That's silly, Crom doesn't give a shit about online tests.

347 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:16:28pm

re: #344 Aceofwhat?

i love how we could answer yes to consulting Satan and asking demons into our lives and still be at low risk...

/damn liberals.

348 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:16:35pm

re: #344 Aceofwhat?

i love how we could answer yes to consulting Satan and asking demons into our lives and still be at low risk...

Dear Satan. About my neighbor...

349 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:16:40pm

re: #331 Gus 802

21 Demon Test Questions

How about a six-demon bag?

/Egg Chen, Big Trouble in Little China

350 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:17:09pm

re: #344 Aceofwhat?

Perhaps the test is taking into account the fact that such things don't exist.

351 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:17:16pm

re: #345 marjoriemoon

Well, I still think you're groovy. Oh wait, that's the other thread.

you made me pass beer through my nose...

352 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:17:51pm

re: #350 Slumbering Behemoth

Perhaps the test is taking into account the fact that such things don't exist.

Nah. That guy is serious.

353 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:18:38pm

re: #352 Gus 802

Nah. That guy is serious.

yowza

354 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:22:10pm

re: #353 Aceofwhat?

yowza

is that some kind of Japanese dumpling?

355 Gus  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:22:17pm

re: #353 Aceofwhat?

yowza

Uh oh. He actually has a trailer out for a reality TV show on exorcism:

[Link: video.simplymedia.tv...]

Guess it didn't float.

356 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:22:47pm

re: #352 Gus 802

Wow.

Dear Friend,

We are facing a critical spiritual opportunity! In a week I am supposed to fly to Latvia, but right now I can’t go without your help. I need every spiritual warrior who believes in this ministry to come forward. Let me explain. Click here to read Bob's explanation.

Seriously, click it. You know you want to.

357 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:23:27pm

re: #355 Gus 802

Uh oh. He actually has a trailer out for a reality TV show on exorcism:

[Link: video.simplymedia.tv...]

Guess it didn't float.

if it didn't float its not a witch...

358 What, me worry?  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:25:16pm

re: #351 brookly red

you made me pass beer through my nose...

My work here is done!

359 lostlakehiker  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:29:56pm

re: #301 brookly red

well it wouldn't be so bad if there were jobs... one has to ask why there are no jobs? oh but wait... that would piss a bunch of people off.

It's worth noting that the recovery is coming along nicely everywhere else. Occam's razor tells us that the reason ours is not is specific to our own government.

And now we look, and behold: free trade agreements scrapped by Obama right and left, stimulus spending correctly rejected as unwise by everybody else but embraced here, and so forth.

360 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:34:12pm

re: #355 Gus 802

Uh oh. He actually has a trailer out for a reality TV show on exorcism:

[Link: video.simplymedia.tv...]

Guess it didn't float.

I see what you did there... ;-P

361 lostlakehiker  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:34:43pm

re: #344 Aceofwhat?

i love how we could answer yes to consulting Satan and asking demons into our lives and still be at low risk...

The risk is zero in all cases.

But that little test is not half bad at diagnosing psychological issues that might possibly respond to faith-based interventions. Such interventions do not require supernatural intervention to be effective. Any sort of human contact, any break in the spiral to destruction that is currently playing out in the subject, may make a difference.

362 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:35:01pm

re: #359 lostlakehiker

It's worth noting that the recovery is coming along nicely everywhere else. Occam's razor tells us that the reason ours is not is specific to our own government.

And now we look, and behold: free trade agreements scrapped by Obama right and left, stimulus spending correctly rejected as unwise by everybody else but embraced here, and so forth.

well what can I say...

363 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:35:38pm

re: #356 Slumbering Behemoth

Wow.

Seriously, click it. You know you want to.

Lemme guess....it has to do with money.

364 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:36:45pm

re: #359 lostlakehiker

It's worth noting that the recovery is coming along nicely everywhere else. Occam's razor tells us that the reason ours is not is specific to our own government.

What a load.

Everywhere else?

What drives you to pull enormous crap like this out and wave it around?


And now we look, and behold: free trade agreements scrapped by Obama right and left, stimulus spending correctly rejected as unwise by everybody else but embraced here, and so forth.

Tons of other countries engaged in stimulus spending. Goddamn, you're such a fucking liar.


[Link: www.brookings.edu...]

365 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:39:23pm

Over 360 comments and no one linked this? I am so disappointed.
/

366 brookly red  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:40:23pm

wow... nothing heats up economic discussions like numbers... economics hates numbers.

367 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:40:25pm

re: #363 talon_262

Don't make me spoil the funny. Cliiick. Iiit. Clickit!

368 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:45:07pm

re: #367 Slumbering Behemoth

Don't make me spoil the funny. Cliiick. Iiit. Clickit!

Can't yet...still at work.

369 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:46:56pm

re: #368 talon_262

Alright then. I substituted his link to a long, bullshit diatribe that predictably ends in a request for cash, and in it's place I put a link to Suicidal Tendencies' "Send Me Your Money" music video.

370 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:51:28pm

re: #369 Slumbering Behemoth

Alright then. I substituted his link to a long, bullshit diatribe that predictably ends in a request for cash, and in it's place I put a link to Suicidal Tendencies' "Send Me Your Money" music video.

LAWL!

/most excellent

371 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 8:03:37pm

re: #7 Obdicut

The Catholic Church is getting really schizophrenic on science. Pro-evolution but insisting that demonic possession is real.

I don't see it as schizophrenia. I see it as part of Catholic doctrine. The Catholic Church believes that the creation story of Genesis is meant to be taken non-literally, but also believes that Satan did lead a rebellion of angels against God. Those rebels became demons and they sometimes attack people. Given that the Catholic Church is very careful about performing exorcisms and only allows specially trained priests to perform them, its not problematic like when evangelicals do it.

Just my two cents.

372 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 8:21:38pm

Hai!

Uh, the Gators suck, but the only saving grace is that I still love Steve Spurrier to death.

Go Cocks!

373 Irenicum  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 8:34:21pm

I want to be cautious here. But as a Christian lizard I want to say that this post tends to exemplify what I thought LGF avoided; an avowedly anti-theistic presentation. Do we want to get into the discussion of spiritual reality and its interaction with the physical world? Is that even open for discussion here? Is the "excluded middle" allowed in this discussion? I know in fundie circles it isn't. Is it the same in similarly secularistic circles? BTW, I say this as a firmly confirmed Christian secularist (of the Anabaptist sort) who is extremely grateful for the wall of separation.

Yet reading the comments so far, I suspect the comments reflect more a typical (modernist) reading than what most people actually believe in the world we actually live in. Maybe the modernist view is right. I won't deny that possibility. But to deny every other view is to behave just just like the view you're critiquing. And that's not cool. It's also intellectually dishonest.

Any immediate concerns regarding this topic, I'm OK with personal replies. My nic is blue.

374 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 8:39:40pm

re: #373 Irenicum

What are you talking about? That didn't make any coherent sense.

What was anti-theistic? Do you find atheists, in their very nature, anti-theistic?

If so, that's your problem, not mine.

375 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 8:41:46pm

re: #373 Irenicum

Not sure what you're getting at. A little help?

376 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 8:47:53pm

re: #374 Obdicut

What are you talking about? That didn't make any coherent sense.

What was anti-theistic? Do you find atheists, in their very nature, anti-theistic?

If so, that's your problem, not mine.

Well, the post did seem to chide the Church for continuing to act as it always had. It could be argued that that was at least hostile to Catholic doctrine.

377 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 8:50:35pm

re: #376 Dark_Falcon

I think it went beyond chiding and ridiculed the church for a completely insane, unscientific belief.

Why is that hostile? The Church isn't claiming that demons are scientifically real. They're claiming they exist in some way that's alternative to physical reality. So being ridiculed for being unscientific shouldn't bother the Church at all.

378 Irenicum  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 8:50:47pm

re: #375 Slumbering Behemoth

re: #374 Obdicut

I'm not RCC, so I'm not defending particular RCC doctrines here. But the idea of exorcism is a concept throughout Christian (and others) history. The concept of spiritual reality between the secular materialists on one side and magical animists on the other as being the only alternatives is simplistic to say the least. Christianity, not to mention many other religious traditions, stand between the two. That's my point. It's not so black and white. And thanks DF. You got what struck me.

379 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 8:52:20pm

re: #376 Dark_Falcon

I think it would be more accurate to say that the OP was critical of dark ages superstition. Just my take.

380 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 8:55:02pm

re: #378 Irenicum

The concept of spiritual reality between the secular materialists on one side and magical animists on the other as being the only alternatives is simplistic to say the least.

I still have no clue what you're talking about.

Christianity, not to mention many other religious traditions, stand between the two.

Oh, now I kind of do, I guess.

No, from an atheist perspective, all religions really are the same in terms of their validity and existence. They all describe irreal things.

It doesn't matter if it's Christianity or animism.

Now, the philosophies stemming from those religions, the actual practices of the religion, can be as different as all get out. But in the end, it's the same belief in something that there is no reason to believe in.

It's a weird arrogance of the established religions that they see the nature of their religion as somehow different from that of others.

381 Irenicum  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 8:56:32pm

re: #374 Obdicut

Oh I have no problem with atheists. I love interacting with them. Anti-theists, on the other hand, remind me of the fundies I've known in religious circles. VERY certain of their beliefs. That always scares me.

382 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 8:56:52pm

re: #377 Obdicut

I think it went beyond chiding and ridiculed the church for a completely insane, unscientific belief.

Why is that hostile? The Church isn't claiming that demons are scientifically real. They're claiming they exist in some way that's alternative to physical reality. So being ridiculed for being unscientific shouldn't bother the Church at all.

It's unscientific, but I'd ask you not to call it insane. The Catholic Church is force for sanity in the world, and even if you don't agree with it on this one please don't use pejoratives like 'insane'.

383 BryanS  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 8:57:07pm

re: #376 Dark_Falcon

Well, the post did seem to chide the Church for continuing to act as it always had. It could be argued that that was at least hostile to Catholic doctrine.


It probably was hostile to current doctrine, but why is such a thing off limits to discuss? Hopefully my previous comments didn't cross any lines of civility, but to say discussing the veracity of beliefs is off limits excludes debate on all sorts of issues. Many political beliefs are just that--beliefs that have only debatable proof for their veracity. It's no wonder that freedom of religion and freedom of speech are so closely related concepts in the same amendment to the constitution.

384 Irenicum  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 8:57:10pm

re: #380 Obdicut

Certainties can be arrogant can't they?

385 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 8:59:37pm

re: #378 Irenicum

Still not sure what your getting at, but this may be due to our different perspectives.

As to mine, I see demons and demonic possession as occupying the same space as The Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus, in that there is absolutely no empirical evidence for any of those things actually existing. None at all.

I see the threat of demons/demonic possession as just another fear mongering device to line certain people's pockets.

386 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:00:08pm

re: #384 Irenicum

Certainties can be arrogant can't they?

Dude, you're being really, really hostile.

Certainties cant be arrogant when they're completely baseless.

Have you read Dennett's Darwin's Dangeorus Idea?

387 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:00:14pm

re: #383 BryanS

It probably was hostile to current doctrine, but why is such a thing off limits to discuss? Hopefully my previous comments didn't cross any lines of civility, but to say discussing the veracity of beliefs is off limits excludes debate on all sorts of issues. Many political beliefs are just that--beliefs that have only debatable proof for their veracity. It's no wonder that freedom of religion and freedom of speech are so closely related concepts in the same amendment to the constitution.

It's not off limits, I just don't agree with it.

388 Irenicum  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:00:58pm

Actually what makes me so accepting of the developments of scientific advances is that they know they only "know in part" on a continuous basis. Science is never "certain" and so I'm much more willing to listen to what science has to say.

389 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:01:14pm

re: #382 Dark_Falcon

It's unscientific, but I'd ask you not to call it insane. The Catholic Church is force for sanity in the world, and even if you don't agree with it on this one please don't use pejoratives like 'insane'.

I disagree entirely, Dark. From opposition to condoms to condemnation of gays, I don't feel the Catholic Church is a force for sanity.

I feel many, many Catholics are individually forces of good. The Church, however, is not.

390 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:01:48pm

re: #382 Dark_Falcon

The Catholic Church is force for sanity in the world

I have to disagree, and vehemently so. This is not a criticism on people of Catholic faith, but the largely corrupt organization known as the Catholic Church. A force for sanity they are not.

391 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:03:56pm

re: #388 Irenicum

You're entirely right. Science only operates in terms of saying that there is overwhelming evidence, or that there is a preponderance of reason to believe something, or that there is absolutely no basis for believing in a certain position.

Many people mistake this for the idea that there is a lot of wiggle room in science, that it allows mysticism in at the side. This couldn't be more wrong.

392 Irenicum  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:05:24pm

re: #386 Obdicut

I haven't read Dennett. I have read good atheists, philosophical atheists. I'll stick with the agnostics. They're at least honest in not knowing the epistemological certainties the fundies seem to "know."

393 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:08:16pm

re: #392 Irenicum

I haven't read Dennett. I have read good atheists, philosophical atheists. I'll stick with the agnostics. They're at least honest in not knowing the epistemological certainties the fundies seem to "know."

You are one of the most hostile people I've ever had the chance to talk to. It's kind of breathtaking. I doubt you even see a shred of it in yourself.

You should read Darwin's Dangerous Idea. The syllogism of the crane and the skyhook there would help you avoid a lot of what's dragging you into such hostility.

394 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:09:33pm

re: #380 Obdicut


It's a weird arrogance of the established religions that they see the nature of their religion as somehow different from that of others.

That's always struck me as bizarre too. Well, that and how one religious sect will insist that their beliefs are rational while that of another faith are obviously wrong.

395 BryanS  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:10:34pm

re: #392 Irenicum

I haven't read Dennett. I have read good atheists, philosophical atheists. I'll stick with the agnostics. They're at least honest in not knowing the epistemological certainties the fundies seem to "know."

Dan Dennet is very well reasoned , and just an all around nice guy--heck he even looks like Santa :)

When you choose to stick with agnostic points of view, you are choosing a constraint to point of views you are willing to consider. Even Dawkins, as strident as he is accused to be, would freely admit he cannot prove beyond a doubt that no god exists. But he rightly compares such a claim to the same questions of whether the tooth fairy or other unprovable beings exist.

396 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:12:06pm

re: #393 Obdicut

I don't know that I would characterize Irenicum as being most hostile. Did you miss the "Expelled: Exposed", Creationism v. Evolution row here a year or more back, and the crazed vitriol slung by the hardcore fundies?

397 Irenicum  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:13:18pm

re: #393 Obdicut

Seriously? Have you you been here at LGF long? I'm a cream puff.

398 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:15:16pm

re: #395 BryanS

Even Dawkins, as strident as he is accused to be, would freely admit he cannot prove beyond a doubt that no god exists.

He's smart enough to know that "proving a negative" is a logical fallacy, and that such a fallacy is never presented by anyone who could remotely be considered a serious, critical thinker.

399 Irenicum  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:15:39pm

re: #396 Slumbering Behemoth

Haha. Thanks. I've been here just long enough to have seen the change from crazy to sane. As least as far as the creationist issues was concerned.

400 BryanS  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:16:01pm

re: #397 Irenicum

Seriously? Have you you been here at LGF long? I'm a cream puff.

lol...I'd concur. But you are hostile to anti-theists in general. I don't agree with past characterizations you've made of Sam Harris for instance. No biggie--I'm hostile to theistic points of view. But I'm cool with discussing the issues with theists if they're level headed like you usually are.

401 Irenicum  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:18:40pm

re: #400 BryanS

Thanks. I appreciate that. I like that about this place. It's not always a friendly place. But I love that many voices are allowed a voice. Peace out. Manana beckons.

402 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:24:15pm

My take... the Jack Chick type of fear mongering... the crap about demons, witchcraft, possession and the like, it's all a device to cow the fearful into acquiescence, obedience, and to generate wealth for those that likely believe in none of these things.

/Ironically, Chick thinks the Catholic Church works for Satan.

403 Mich-again  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:26:52pm

I wonder what has a better track record for eliminating the demons. Exorcism rites or Rehab Clinics. I bet they're both about a 50/50 proposition.

404 BryanS  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:27:19pm

re: #402 Slumbering Behemoth

My take... the Jack Chick type of fear mongering... the crap about demons, witchcraft, possession and the like, it's all a device to cow the fearful into acquiescence, obedience, and to generate wealth for those that likely believe in none of these things.

/Ironically, Chick thinks the Catholic Church works for Satan.

Modern day equivalent of indulgences? Possibly. I think the church probably tries to thread the needle of downplaying wacky things like exorcism in the West while still going down that route in other cultures that still buy into such things. In that way, they almost knowingly perpetuate backward thinking where it is still common.

405 Irenicum  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:30:51pm

re: #395 BryanS

I'll accept that even Dawkins is an agnostic in the intellectual final analysis. We can agree on that. It's ashame that his rhetoric hasn't caught up to his philosophy. Anyone willing to consider that they might be wrong is someone I'd be willing to listen to.

406 BryanS  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:34:29pm

re: #405 Irenicum

I'll accept that even Dawkins is an agnostic in the intellectual final analysis. We can agree on that. It's ashame that his rhetoric hasn't caught up to his philosophy. Anyone willing to consider that they might be wrong is someone I'd be willing to listen to.

Dawkins' issue is he is not so great at PR (understatement).

407 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:38:25pm

re: #404 BryanS

Some folks are more than willing to part with their money simply because they believe. To rake in the big bucks however, you have to instill a sense of fear in those that believe, but aren't that quick to part with their hard earned cash.

Don't believe me? "A common household item in your kitchen could be killing your children right now. Tune in to Hyper Hysterical News at Eleven". That kind of shit sells ad spots. That exact same kind of bullshit tactic sells indulgences, religious media, and the like.

408 BryanS  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:38:40pm

re: #406 BryanS

Dawkins' issue is he is not so great at PR (understatement).


Case in point, this was Dawkins' attempt at humor in his recent book The God Delusion.


The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction:jealous and proud of it; petty, unjust, unforgiving, control freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty, ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevent bully.

Now, it is kinda funny, but more so if you're an atheist :)

409 BryanS  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:42:19pm

re: #407 Slumbering Behemoth

Some folks are more than willing to part with their money simply because they believe. To rake in the big bucks however, you have to instill a sense of fear in those that believe, but aren't that quick to part with their hard earned cash.

Don't believe me? "A common household item in your kitchen could be killing your children right now. Tune in to Hyper Hysterical News at Eleven". That kind of shit sells ad spots. That exact same kind of bullshit tactic sells indulgences, religious media, and the like.

I'm reminded of Cartman from South Park and his creation of a church so he can make a million dollars. Ahh, Stone and Parker really have religion's game and it's fun to watch them skewer it.

410 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:45:52pm

re: #405 Irenicum

The thing is, it's not "anti-theist" to assert (and correctly so) that there is absolutely no empirical evidence for demons, angels, Santa Claus, Cthulhu, or any other such thing, and then to further assert such things should not be believed in due to such overwhelming lack of empirical evidence.

411 Irenicum  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:48:35pm

re: #407 Slumbering Behemoth

I'm so glad that professional atheists, such as Dawkins, and their followers, never, ever, give into that tactic. Reason "rules" among those that reject religion. I'm so grateful. I look forward to the secular eschaton.
/////

412 BryanS  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:58:40pm

re: #411 Irenicum

I'm so glad that professional atheists, such as Dawkins, and their followers, never, ever, give into that tactic. Reason "rules" among those that reject religion. I'm so grateful. I look forward to the secular eschaton.
///

A secularist atheist could never wish for the end of the world like a theocrat. Most atheists would consider the pernicious directive to "take therefore no thought for the morrow" evil. Dedicating ones life to a god to the exclusion of taking care of the here and now in hopes of salvation after death seems a particularly destructive teaching.

413 Irenicum  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 9:59:45pm

re: #410 Slumbering Behemoth

I'm more a "first cause" kinda guy myself. So the particularities of belief, for me at least, are more about basics than a particular expression of the belief. Empiricism is a philosophy that also needs to be addressed. Modern science is even having issues... I'm not saying it might affect anything different. It may not. By the way kiddos. Please consider that I'm open to all of this. I'm willing to change my mind.. I want to be in agreement with reality.

I just don't want to preclude possible understandings of reality. That's my main point.

414 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 10:03:46pm

re: #411 Irenicum

I'm so glad that professional atheists, such as Dawkins, and their followers, never, ever, give into that tactic. Reason "rules" among those that reject religion.

How is Dawkins selling fear?

I'm so grateful. I look forward to the secular eschaton.
///

We call it the big rip.

415 BryanS  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 10:08:28pm

re: #413 Irenicum

I'm more a "first cause" kinda guy myself. So the particularities of belief, for me at least, are more about basics than a particular expression of the belief. Empiricism is a philosophy that also needs to be addressed. Modern science is even having issues... I'm not saying it might affect anything different. It may not. By the way kiddos. Please consider that I'm open to all of this. I'm willing to change my mind.. I want to be in agreement with reality.

I just don't want to preclude possible understandings of reality. That's my main point.

Are you really THAT open and do you really mean that? On what basis would you exclude all the other religions and belief systems for consideration? I think you consider yourself Christian, so then why not Muslim, Hindu, Bhuddist, Jewish, Mormon, Scientologist, Zoroastrarian, etc?

416 Irenicum  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 10:09:23pm

re: #412 BryanS

Yeppers. I agree. By the way, have you read Peter Singer? Some of his shit sounds kinda fundie to me. And he's not a "religious" nut. He's completely and totally secular in his understanding. Yet he's an apocalyptic voice. Sound familiar? I guess the "end is extremely fucking nigh" (cool movie) under many circumstances.

Why is that? I suspect it may have more to do with human psychology than anything else.

417 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 10:11:51pm

re: #413 Irenicum

Empiricism is a philosophy that also needs to be addressed.

Sorry. Empiricism is nothing so abstract as a "philosophy". It is the practice of relying on observation and experiment especially in the natural sciences.

This is why claims of the supernatural have no empirical evidence to support them, and can be so easily dismissed. There is no way, and nor has their ever been, to observe, test, and experiment on those things which are defined as supernatural.

418 Irenicum  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 10:12:27pm

re: #415 BryanS

Religious understandings of the world are a part of what I'm processing right now. I won't pretend to say that I have the "final" understanding of what that means. Yes. I am a Christian. And an evangelical one at that. That is a work in progress.

419 Irenicum  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 10:12:47pm

re: #417 Slumbering Behemoth

Have you read John Hick?

420 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 10:16:40pm

re: #419 Irenicum

Nope.

421 BryanS  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 10:19:42pm

re: #418 Irenicum

Religious understandings of the world are a part of what I'm processing right now. I won't pretend to say that I have the "final" understanding of what that means. Yes. I am a Christian. And an evangelical one at that. That is a work in progress.

I would say that the vast majority of the faithful pick the religion that they are exposed to primarily in the family, and secondarily exposed to culturally. How come nobody still believe in Zeus, Thor, or Zoroaster? Is it because those systems were disproven? Or was it that those gods lost cultural significance?

I've not read anything by Peter Singer--looking at his wiki entry, his animal rights views are a bit too fringy for my comfort.

422 prairiefire  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 10:21:05pm

re: #416 Irenicum

Yeppers. I agree. By the way, have you read Peter Singer? Some of his shit sounds kinda fundie to me. And he's not a "religious" nut. He's completely and totally secular in his understanding. Yet he's an apocalyptic voice. Sound familiar? I guess the "end is extremely fucking nigh" (cool movie) under many circumstances.

Why is that? I suspect it may have more to do with human psychology than anything else.

I agree in regards to human psychology propelling "the end is nigh" meme. It's been heard for centuries.

423 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 10:21:54pm

re: #421 BryanS

I would say that the vast majority of the faithful pick the religion that they are exposed indoctrinated into primarily in the family, and secondarily exposed indoctrinated into culturally.

Sorry, just thought I'd FTFY.

424 Irenicum  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 10:29:48pm

re: #420 Slumbering Behemoth

I don't ultimately land were he does. But his religious epistemology (my field of study in part) kicks serious butt. His arguments rang the most most true. His spiritually "neutral" territory, at least epistemically concerned, impressed me most.

425 Irenicum  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 10:30:49pm

Gah, I hate typos!

426 Irenicum  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 10:33:12pm

re: #423 Slumbering Behemoth

Unless they choose otherwise. Cultural and personal dynamics are a bitch. How in the world do "new" religions come into existence?

427 Irenicum  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 10:37:47pm

And this thread is dead. Nitey nite, as Bugs said to the mad scientist. BTW, I love you guys, even if I'm ornery tonight.

428 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 10:39:07pm

re: #426 Irenicum

Right, however it is so entirely rare as to be nearly impossible, that a person comes to their first religious belief(s) of their own accord.

Religion, in a most overwhelming way, is first imposed on one through indoctrination. That one chooses another religious path later in life does nothing to change this fact.

429 Irenicum  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 10:49:07pm

re: #428 Slumbering Behemoth

Except when that's not true. Like my siblings. Yet we were raised in the same environment. It's just not that simple. It never has been.

430 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 10:50:45pm

re: #429 Irenicum

You're siblings were raised by atheists, then?

431 Irenicum  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 10:51:17pm

re: #430 Slumbering Behemoth

One.

432 Irenicum  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 10:52:59pm

A re: #430 Slumbering Behemoth

A Christian mother and a skeptic father. Fun times.

433 Irenicum  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 10:55:31pm

re: #431 Irenicum

One as in one parent.

434 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 10:58:50pm

re: #431 Irenicum

My point is that it is so very rare that a person will come to their first religious belief of their own accord as to make it an entirely negligible demographic. The overwhelming number of "believers" have been indoctrinated in their youth. By their family, by society, and largely both at the same time.

How anyone could propose to refute that observable fact is baffling. For one to do so stretches credibility, and easily leads one to suspect dishonesty on the part of the claimant.

435 Irenicum  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 11:16:38pm

re: #434 Slumbering Behemoth

I could have been a skeptic or a Christian just as easily. Why did I choose? By the way, "first religious belief" and what one believes over the long haul are two very different things. We need to keep our distinctions clear. I was exposed to both Christian teaching and skeptical thinking early on. Why did I choose one over the other versus my siblings, some of whom went the other way? I would posit both psychological and spiritual impulses in that decision making process (thus my "excluded middle" statement from earlier).

Damn it's late. G'nite SB and the others I've engaged in this issue. Tomorrow really does beckon. Peace, Irenicum

436 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 11:30:33pm

re: #435 Irenicum

I could have been a skeptic or a Christian just as easily. Why did I choose? By the way, "first religious belief" and what one believes over the long haul are two very different things.

Exactly what I was saying. But it does nothing to disprove that the overwhelming majority of religious beliefs are the result of early indoctrination in ones youth. To say otherwise either comes from a place of denial or dishonesty.

I was exposed to both Christian teaching and skeptical thinking early on. Why did I choose one over the other versus my siblings, some of whom went the other way?

I wish you wouldn't say things like that. Those things are not mutually exclusive, and regardless of your intention it sounds as if you are implying that a person cannot be a skeptical thinker and a person of faith at the same time.

I would posit both psychological and spiritual impulses in that decision making process (thus my "excluded middle" statement from earlier).

Again, for a person not to be indoctrinated into a religious belief in their youth is such a rare occurrence that it is nearly unheard of. To argue that this is the rule, rather than the exception, is a fallacy. One so damn flimsy that I would find myself suspecting the honesty, integrity, and intentions of one making such argument.

G'nite to you too, BTW.

437 AK-47%  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:36:29am

re: #436 Slumbering Behemoth

Religion would be a different thing entirely if adults were simply invited at age 18 to choose from among the existing varieties. But most people are raised in a religion to some extent, whether it be full-on indoctrination or simply the cultural influences one picks up from being raised in a society permeated by religion and religious beliefs.

But please, notions like demonic possession are a relic of dark and ancient times, they were invented, like creations myths, to fill gaps in our knowledge that science and oberservation could not describe.

And please, is there an objective definition of a "demon" or a verifiable description of the mechanics of "possession"?

I used to have similar discussions with New Age crystal heads, I simply asked them to explain in physical terms what enters a crystal and how it is altered before it comes out. I am familiar enough with basic crystal ehemistry and physics to understand how they can affect various forms of energy, such as light or radio waves, I just wanted an explanation of what constituted "healing energies"...

438 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:45:11am

re: #437 ralphieboy

Heh. Same shit, different dogma?

439 AK-47%  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 6:14:08am

As long as long as there is no objective definition of "demonic possession" or "healing energy", everybody is free to use the terms as they see subjectively fit.

Which means that these belief systems can an interesting way of describing a situation, they remain in the realm of waht we call "Magic" or "supersition".

440 lostlakehiker  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 8:26:43am

re: #197 JeffFX

Yes, very much so. I viewed the land of nod stuff with the other population of people as one of the big plot-holes in the bible, but can see how that fits your worldview.

So you think that only two of a big population had a soul? If that's the case, did only their descendants have souls, or all people newly born to the species? If the former, maybe I'm not religious because I got genes from the souless ones ;>

By now, the gene for soul has swept. Only the born serial killers lack it.
///

441 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 9:48:05am

I'm not "anti-theistic," but the idea that actual, real demonic beings can possess the bodies of humans is ludicrous, backward, and very dangerous. People who claim to be possessed by demons are either 1) faking it, or 2) mentally ill. And treating mental illness with magical incantations is cruel and dangerous. No one will ever be "cured" by an exorcism; the entire concept is phony from start to finish, and it comes from an era of human history when darkness and ignorance were the ruling principles.

This IS superstition, and it's absurd that the Catholic Church is still pushing this nonsense. And they're pushing it more than ever these days - when I was a kid going to Catholic school, we never heard a single word about this idiocy.

442 AK-47%  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 10:21:20am

Pope Benedict is turning out be a lot more "Old School" than many at first suspected.

443 Aye Pod  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:06:09am

re: #373Irenicum

I want to be cautious here. But as a Christian lizard I want to say that this post tends to exemplify what I thought LGF avoided; an avowedly anti-theistic presentation.

re: #411 Irenicum

I'm so glad that professional atheists, such as Dawkins, and their followers, never, ever, give into that tactic. Reason "rules" among those that reject religion. I'm so grateful. I look forward to the secular eschaton.
///

If you think that an unapologetic rejection of nonsense like exorcism amounts to 'avowed anti-theism', and that vocal atheists like Richard Dawkins are fear mongers or 'fundamentalists', then maybe you aren't quite the moderate christian you like to present yourself as, or that you believe yourself to be.

444 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:53:58am

I loved the film "The Exorcist," by the way. But it was not a documentary.

445 hellosnackbar  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:16:27pm

Exorcism seems to have escaped the attention of Penn&Teller on their
Bullshit series

446 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:23:36pm

re: #445 hellosnackbar

Oh man, that would make for a most awesome Bullsh*t Halloween Special.

447 Steve Dutch  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 4:08:30pm

What's with the shrieking hysteria lately? A couple of people smear olive oil on a door after work hours and it's equated with terrorism. The Catholic Church holds a conference on a rarely performed rite and hundreds of people in need of adult supervision weigh in against it. The intellectual quality of most of the posts here is on a par with Jack Chick.

448 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 4:12:23pm

re: #447 SteveDutch

The rarity of exorcism isn't relevant to the rationality of exorcism.

People performing an 'exorcism' against someone is definitely a fucked up and disturbing thing.

Accusing posters here of being the equivalent of an antisemitic, racist, insanely hateful nutbag like Chick is moronic in the extreme.

449 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 4:18:29pm

re: #447 SteveDutch

What's with the shrieking hysteria lately? A couple of people smear olive oil on a door after work hours and it's equated with terrorism. The Catholic Church holds a conference on a rarely performed rite and hundreds of people in need of adult supervision weigh in against it. The intellectual quality of most of the posts here is on a par with Jack Chick.

Take you persecution complex and shove it.
Respectfully.

450 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 4:48:58pm

re: #447 SteveDutch

Wht's wth th shrkng hystr ltl? cpl f ppl smr lv l n dr ftr wrk hrs nd t's qtd wth trrrsm. Th Cthlc Chrch hlds cnfrnc n rrl prfrmd rt nd hndrds f ppl n nd f dlt sprvsn wgh n gnst t. Th ntllctl qlt f mst f th psts hr s n pr wth Jck Chck.

What's not surprising is that, in your criticism of LGF, is that you've made shit up out of whole cloth AND completely missed the point of the thread and the discussions that followed.

/by the way, from a lapsed Methodist and someone who is a bit of a deist, you can go sit on a short stick for the Jack Chick comparisons...

451 jaunte  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 5:40:35pm

re: #447 SteveDutch

Seriously? If you think about what's been happening in the Catholic Church lately, 'we need more exorcists' is not a rational response by the management.

452 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 5:53:20pm

re: #451 jaunte

Seriously? If you think about what's been happening in the Catholic Church lately, 'we need more exorcists' is not a rational response by the management.

This.

453 Aye Pod  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 7:29:23pm

re: #447 SteveDutch

What's with the shrieking hysteria lately? A couple of people smear olive oil on a door after work hours and it's equated with terrorism. The Catholic Church holds a conference on a rarely performed rite and hundreds of people in need of adult supervision weigh in against it. The intellectual quality of most of the posts here is on a par with Jack Chick.

'Weighing in against' things just because they are incredibly stupid and primitive is sooo unfair. Waaaa!

Youtube Video
454 swisslizard  Mon, Nov 15, 2010 2:38:43am

The Catholic Church has always been giving courses on exorcism, some even at university level in theology faculties in Italy. The truth is, exorcism uses many psychological processes, which have been approved a posteriori. It notably focuses on effects of expectation, which is a big deal in contemporary social psychology. Effects of expectation are much like placebo effects, except that the effect his brought by what you have been taught to possibly happen, and not told what should happen.
Since in many parts of the world, the existence of demons as well as stories of possession have been taught since an early age, it is only natural that some people will start convincing themselves that it could happen to them and eventually that has, which is a similar process to many phobias or compulsive behaviors.
So, as long as gods and demons exist in the minds of some, we need to set our sights on solutions, which are part of the culture of the "possessed", and not only believe that the solutions for a "modern" person are going to be truly effective for everyone.

455 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 15, 2010 2:51:55am

re: #454 swisslizard

So, as long as gods and demons exist in the minds of some, we need to set our sights on solutions, which are part of the culture of the "possessed", and not only believe that the solutions for a "modern" person are going to be truly effective for everyone.

But that's the point; by perpetuating the myth of demons, the Catholic church is ensuring that those demons will continue to exist in the minds of some.


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