Rand Paul Defends BP Again

Politics • Views: 28,005

Now that he’s been elected, Rand Paul has no need to run away from the media any more, so he showed up today on “Face The Nation” — and out came the crazy: Rand Paul says Obama set the wrong tone on BP.

President Barack Obama’s tone on the massive BP oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico sent the wrong message to the business community, newly elected Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) said Sunday.

Paul, a favorite of the tea party movement, said that even though BP may have been culpable, the president’s tone to the company “sends the wrong signal that government is the enemy of business.”

This is why Paul hid from the press during his election; he’s an apologist for big corporations, and he knew it wouldn’t play well with the public. Before his handlers got him to clam up, though, Paul said President Obama’s handling of the BP spill was “un-American,” that Obama was “putting his boot heel on the throat of BP,” and that BP wasn’t to blame because “accidents happen.”

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239 comments
1 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 10:53:14am

*sigh*

2 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 10:54:12am

Furthermore, If BP doesn't want to sell gas to black people, that's OK too.
//

3 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 10:54:22am

I guess Paul doesn't care about the damage BP has done.
Scientists find damaged marine life near BP spill site

4 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 10:54:56am

How rude of us to get our dirty American wildlife all over their nice oil.
/

5 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 10:55:00am

re: #3 Varek Raith

I guess Paul doesn't care about the damage BP has done.
Scientists find damaged marine life near BP spill site

But hey, accidents happen.
9_9

6 dragonfire1981  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 10:56:19am

He's right, accidents happen when warnings are ignored, people are paid off to look the other way and profits are put above all else. including the environment.

7 nines09  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 10:57:13am

I thought the Tea Party was a grass roots movement of ordinary citizens who were sick of the status quo? Oh, THAT status quo, not THIS status quo? I see./

8 AK-47%  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 10:58:59am

When one thinks of what a truly hostile administration could've to to and with BP, I think they got off pretty damn easy...

9 Kronocide  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 10:59:29am

"What I was trying to point out...is that it isn’t always that someone intentionally did it or that they broke a regulation," Paul said of the mining accident.

Poor old BP, just trying to make a buck and something breaks. Bullshit. There seems to be compelling evidence safety got sloppy due to financial pressures. Something broke because safety got 'aw shucks'ed.

10 FreedomMoon  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:01:27am

Well that jokes on you Rand, because you set the wrong tone to rational discourse. You give the wrong signal that crazy and bigoted candidates have a voice in modern politics as long as there's enough manipulated and scared ignorant people to send you there.

11 apox  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:02:58am

I loathe this man. He said that the government is sending the wrong message to corporations because of hostility following BP trashing our oceans. FUCK THAT (not very eloquent), the government is "for the people," to give the electorate a voice against large injustice. We should NEVER have to apologize for doing that.

The interview in it's entirety had me off of my seat, apologizing to corporations, promoting tax cuts for the wealthy and then saying that the middle class should have to wait longer for social security, when it already dame near 70 (i believ) for someone my age (22) How does a majority vote for this. Jesus.

12 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:09:07am

Offtopic:

Hello, Lizards! Greetings from Russia. Just registered and this is one of my first comments here. But I've been reading the site regularly for some time.

Truth be told, I'm one of those liberals (socially liberal, fiscally somewhat more to the left, but the social component is more important for me) who wouldn't find many kind words to say about LGF before 2009. One of the things that irritated me about LGF-type blogs back then was that while the research exposing Islamists is a good thing, these blogs never seemed to be consistent enough to critique the similar tendencies among the conservatives.

And in 2009 Charles began to do just that. With a vengeance! For this he was slimed and "excommunicated". So back then I supported Charles against racist idiot Robert Stacy McCain (and had a honor of being cited by Charles here).

My interests intersect with this blog's - I'm interested in political and religious extremists of all sorts; American politics (because Russian politics is more or less in a coma); creation/evolution "controversy", but currently primarily in the history of Hitler's and Stalin's terror, especially in the attempts to whitewash and revise the said history.

13 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:14:43am

BP article from The Wall Street Journal. [Link: online.wsj.com...]
Cutting corners seems to be a way of company life.

14 AK-47%  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:16:48am

re: #12 Sergey Romanov

re: #13 PhillyPretzel

I lived in Moscow in 1992-93, tried following politics and nearly wound up in a coma.

I joined LGF back when it was very conservative, mostly to argue with conservatives. But even then I found that the arguements were rational and well put, and not just ideological ranting.

In any case, I am very pleased with the developments it has taken over the past two years.

15 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:17:43am

BP's Dismal Safety Record

OSHA statistics show BP ran up 760 "egregious, willful" safety violations, while Sunoco and Conoco-Phillips each had eight, Citgo had two and Exxon had one comparable citation.
16 bratwurst  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:18:15am

Can you imagine the shit storm if Obama had gone on TV to say that "accidents happen" in response to this disaster?

17 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:19:01am

re: #16 bratwurst

Can you imagine the shit storm if Obama had gone on TV to say that "accidents happen" in response to this disaster?

Or after 9/11 if Bush said, "Shit happens".
Ridiculous, Rand.
Ridiculous.

18 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:20:18am

re: #15 Varek Raith

Yes, a company way of life.

19 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:20:27am

re: #12 Sergey Romanov

Are you the same Sergey from the axishistory.com forums?

20 Amory Blaine  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:20:46am

It's unamerican to hold a foreign company responsible when the corporation is irresponsible.

BP's Horrible Safety Record: It's Got 760 OSHA Fines, Exxon Has Just 1

The fact that Randy can even run on this lunacy shows how far Obama is off his game. This is a slam dunk with reams of facts behind it, yet here we are.

21 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:20:47am

re: #11 apox

As you mature, you'll grow to appreciate the fact that the US government - and in fact, the nation itself - exists solely for the purpose of making sure that billionaires continue to have billions and billions and billions of dollars, rather than merely billions and billions.

You too will some day come to see that raising a corporation's marginal tax rate by 2% is no different from storming into Warsaw and hauling men, women, and kids alike into an extermination camp.

And if the day should come that you are starving to death in the street, you will do so proudly comforted by the knowledge that Paris Hilton still has $120 million in the bank.

22 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:20:54am

re: #12 Sergey Romanov

Welcome.

23 jamesfirecat  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:21:14am

"putting his boot heel on the throat of BP,” After what BP did to us, I would not be opposed to this, I'd also be open to the idea of a swirly...

24 APox  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:21:16am

And to be clear, because I've read right wing blogs that stated he was taken out of context from the evil libureal media, his first comment was he was unhappy with the "rhetoric" (not policy) when the administration said they would keep the "bootstrap to the neck of BP until the job was done," I take contention to this because had Bush said it he would be a freedom fighter fighting for the folks at home vs. The evil foreign corporation... But I digress..

The next part of the interview was not JUST rhetoric he had a problem with, it was that the company simply just made a mistake... Like when he might grab the wrong patients chart back home... And THAT is comple and utter bullshit.

25 jamesfirecat  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:22:55am

re: #16 bratwurst

Can you imagine the shit storm if Obama had gone on TV to say that "accidents happen" in response to this disaster?

Motherf***ing hurricanes, how do they work?

26 AK-47%  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:23:24am

We are starting to see the Man Behind the Curtain here: there is some basis to the point of view that a climate of lower taxes and less government helps businesses, especially small businesses, to create jobs.

But Rand Paul is not about that, he is about less government to ensure safety and health regulations.

27 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:24:16am

re: #14 ralphieboy

I lived in Moscow in 1992-93, tried following politics and nearly wound up in a coma.


The sad thing is that some people following politics here wind up in real coma. Oh well.

28 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:25:24am

re: #12 Sergey Romanov

Рад тебя видеть. Откуда?

29 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:25:57am
Youtube Video
30 AK-47%  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:26:03am

re: #27 Sergey Romanov

The sad thing is that some people following politics here wind up in real coma. Oh well.


Yes, I had some friends who worked in TV journalism, and was shocked to see that one of them had just bought a gun "for self-protection". I now understand why.

31 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:26:17am

re: #19 Obdicut

Are you the same Sergey from the axishistory.com forums?

None other. But so that there is no confusion, there is a poster there who goes just by the name "Sergey" - that's not me.

32 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:28:11am

re: #28 negativ

Рад тебя видеть. Откуда?

Тут есть приват?

33 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:28:47am

re: #31 Sergey Romanov


Understood. I know who you are. Thank you very much for your long, long, long history of debunking holocaust deniers.

For Lizards in general:

Sergey Romanov has been taking on holocaust deniers for years upon years. If you google him, you may find a lot of bizarre statements that he is, himself, a holocaust denier. That is disinformation and deliberate deception aimed at him.

His website, which he's linked in his profile, is an excellent resource for dealing with holocaust denial.

34 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:34:15am

And on the topic of the thread:

The government should be the enemy of business, when those businesses are acting in a reckless and irresponsible fashion. That's one of the main roles of the government.

Sadly, the government is far too often not the enemy of such businesses.

35 BryanS  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:34:21am

re: #30 ralphieboy

Yes, I had some friends who worked in TV journalism, and was shocked to see that one of them had just bought a gun "for self-protection". I now understand why.

Funny thing how many unfortunate life ending accidents the critics of the Russian government have. Must be lot's of bad luck running around Russia these days //

36 JeffFX  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:35:15am

re: #33 Obdicut

Thanks for the info Obdi, and welcome Sergey!

37 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:35:18am

re: #32 Sergey Romanov

Es wäre umsonst gewesen sein.

(Oooh, look at me. Terrible at grammar and in possession of a pathetically limited vocabulary in 2 languages, including my native one! Working on Czech, too, so that I can give the rest of my ancestors an excuse to disown me.)

38 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:35:33am

re: #33 Obdicut

Understood. I know who you are. Thank you very much for your long, long, long history of debunking holocaust deniers.

For Lizards in general:

Sergey Romanov has been taking on holocaust deniers for years upon years. If you google him, you may find a lot of bizarre statements that he is, himself, a holocaust denier. That is disinformation and deliberate deception aimed at him.

His website, which he's linked in his profile, is an excellent resource for dealing with holocaust denial.

Thank you, Obdicut! Those vicious smears are by the guy with a massive butthurt, who happens to be a far-right loon (on his private forum, now deleted but available through web archive, he complained that Colin Powell was such a disappointment because he was a moderate) with some, ahem, "closet" problems.

39 AK-47%  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:35:41am

re: #35 BryanS

Funny thing how many unfortunate life ending accidents the critics of the Russian government have. Must be lot's of bad luck running around Russia these days //


They are just slow at learning that they had better stop criticizing the government and get back to the job of singing its praises.

/

40 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:37:01am

re: #27 Sergey Romanov
It took me a little while to find this article. "The High Price of Journalism in Putin's Russia"
[Link: online.wsj.com...]

41 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:37:24am

re: #19 Obdicut

You read axishistory.com? Lemme guess, you're on the JREF forum too? It's a small internet after all...

42 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:37:35am

re: #38 Sergey Romanov

Trust me, if there's any blog where people understand insane, obsessive stalkers, it's this one.

Nice to have you here.

43 BryanS  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:38:00am

re: #38 Sergey Romanov

Thank you, Obdicut! Those vicious smears are by the guy with a massive butthurt, who happens to be a far-right loon (on his private forum, now deleted but available through web archive, he complained that Colin Powell was such a disappointment because he was a moderate) with some, ahem, "closet" problems.

How come the far right has this obsession with teh gay as a meme to tear down their opponents? It's an unhealthy obsession.

44 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:38:33am

re: #41 negativ

Yep. I read but have never posted at JREF, and I've only posted incredibly rarely at axishistory.com; frankly, the researchers there are at a level far beyond me. I just read instead.

45 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:39:51am

Oh, and Sergey, have a look at the pages function if you've got any stories you'd like to share with the community here.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

46 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:41:01am

re: #12 Sergey Romanov

Welcome to the jungle, Sergey. You did some excellent work digging up RS McCain's neo-Confederate Usenet posts. I still find it a little amazing that he's gotten a complete pass from the right wing media on his long history of racist statements and associations.

47 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:41:31am

FAQ; Below are the answers to some Frequently Asked Questions:
1.Yes
2.A light jacket
3.Don’t tell her anything!
4.Tell her everything!
5.American
6.Blue
7.Sushi
8.Ron Paul
9.We don’t think so, but we’re not sure.
10.Australia

48 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:42:03am

re: #47 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

LOL

49 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:42:40am

re: #47 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

FAQ; Below are the answers to some Frequently Asked Questions:
1.Yes
2.A light jacket
3.Don’t tell her anything!
4.Tell her everything!
5.American
6.Blue
7.Sushi
8.Ron Paul
9.We don’t think so, but we’re not sure.
10.Australia

In a pinch, "Ron Paul" can serve as the answer to any question likely to be FA, though.

50 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:44:29am

re: #45 Obdicut

Oh, and Sergey, have a look at the pages function if you've got any stories you'd like to share with the community here.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I certainly will, thanks!

51 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:44:32am

re: #44 Obdicut

Totally agree about axishistory. I first discovered that place by obsessively searching for info about the girl pictured in my current avatar. I came across this utterly exhaustive thread. A bit morbid, maybe, but utterly fascinating.

52 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:48:02am

I thought companies were supposed to be held accountable for their fuck-ups in order to save the true order of capitalism or something. Wasn't that the "tone" of the libertarians opposing the bailouts, TARP, corporate wellfare, etc.?

Politics is the simultaneous embracing and glossing over of contradictions.

53 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:49:48am

re: #46 Charles

Welcome to the jungle, Sergey. You did some excellent work digging up RS McCain's neo-Confederate Usenet posts. I still find it a little amazing that he's gotten a complete pass from the right wing media on his long history of racist statements and associations.

It's actually very useful to always check the Usenet archives whenever extremists are involved.

E.g. once I exposed a certain Robert H. Boatman whose articles were published in FrontPageMag. In his articles he was oh so pro-Israel, thus implicitly pro-Jewish.

But his Usenet postings told a very different story...

[Link: holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com...]

[Link: holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com...]

54 AK-47%  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:49:55am

re: #52 000G

Politics is the simultaneous embracing and glossing over of contradictions.

There is no contradiction here, just the overriding imperative to maintain an endless stream of criticism of the opposing party.

55 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:53:37am

re: #53 Sergey Romanov

Excellent takedown of Horowitz in reference to Soros, by the way.

56 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:54:52am

re: #52 000G

I thought companies were supposed to be held accountable for their fuck-ups

How cute!

57 recusancy  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:55:19am

OT: For all the people here who were defending the Arizona SB-1070 law here's the company you keep.

58 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 11:58:57am

re: #53 Sergey Romanov

It's actually very useful to always check the Usenet archives whenever extremists are involved.

Rule 937 of the Internet: Do not talk about Usenet.
Rule 938 of the Internet: Do not talk about Usenet.

59 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:00:22pm

re: #55 Obdicut

Excellent takedown of Horowitz in reference to Soros, by the way.

I understand some criticism of Soros when it comes to his business, but I judge him by his "social" deeds and find him to be a decent human being overall, especially for what he did in Russia. And these attacks are simply beyond the pale (not to mention the stupidity of it all).

60 BryanS  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:00:30pm

re: #52 000G

I thought companies were supposed to be held accountable for their fuck-ups in order to save the true order of capitalism or something. Wasn't that the "tone" of the libertarians opposing the bailouts, TARP, corporate wellfare, etc.?

Politics is the simultaneous embracing and glossing over of contradictions.

I thought Obama did the right thing in that regard--getting the 20 billion in advance to ensure there were funds available for those affected, and making them pay for the costs of the cleanup is what libertarians should be in favor of.


BP's sloppy and careless disregard for safety practices already in place were the cause of this disaster. Too often in the past the full cost of oil spills were not recovered by the instigators and that is what leads to the behaviors exhibited by BP. BP also "self insured".

If a regulation reform is needed, maybe it is that companies like BP should not be able to self insure--the insurer would have an independent reason to see the company they insure is actually holding up safety standards. In the alternative of third party insurance, they need to post a performance bond equal to the potential damage a spill could cause.

61 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:03:05pm

I really, really, really don't understand why people who identify as libertarian-esque, like Rand, have such a fixation with corporations.

Libertarianism is the ideology that maximization of personal freedom is the ultimate good. In general, libertarianism is therefore opposed to collective power.

Corporations represent collective power.

So why don't libertarians have the same attitude towards them as they do to the government? Can I really blame it all on Ayn Rand and her bizarre adoption by libertarians?

62 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:06:20pm

re: #61 Obdicut

I really, really, really don't understand why people who identify as libertarian-esque, like Rand, have such a fixation with corporations.

Libertarianism is the ideology that maximization of personal freedom is the ultimate good. In general, libertarianism is therefore opposed to collective power.

Corporations represent collective power.

So why don't libertarians have the same attitude towards them as they do to the government? Can I really blame it all on Ayn Rand and her bizarre adoption by libertarians?

Possibly. I think there is a strain of thought--I don't even know if I'd call it libertarian, which means so many different things to so many different people--that power achieved through business is somehow more deserved than power achieved through politics, and that the former should be not only rewarded but adulated.

63 AK-47%  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:06:43pm

re: #61 Obdicut

Well, corporations are "legal persons" under our law, which we have come to confuse with real persons.

Real persons have personal physical, moral and spiritual needs, have families, raise children, get sick, etc.

Corporations don't.

"If you cut me, do I not bleed?"

-No

64 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:07:01pm

re: #53 Sergey Romanov

It's actually very useful to always check the Usenet archives whenever extremists are involved.

E.g. once I exposed a certain Robert H. Boatman whose articles were published in FrontPageMag. In his articles he was oh so pro-Israel, thus implicitly pro-Jewish.

But his Usenet postings told a very different story...

[Link: holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com...]

[Link: holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com...]

Interesting...

[Link: holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com...]
[Link: holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com...]
[Link: holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com...]

Love the exposition of these smear traditions. Boy, there is not a pile in which Beck won't grab in order to have a handful of stinking shit to fling at his enemies in order to see what sticks.

65 prairiefire  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:08:36pm

re: #62 SanFranciscoZionist

Possibly. I think there is a strain of thought--I don't even know if I'd call it libertarian, which means so many different things to so many different people--that power achieved through business is somehow more deserved than power achieved through politics, and that the former should be not only rewarded but adulated.

Yes, reverence of Capitalistic power.

66 BryanS  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:09:13pm

re: #61 Obdicut

I really, really, really don't understand why people who identify as libertarian-esque, like Rand, have such a fixation with corporations.

Libertarianism is the ideology that maximization of personal freedom is the ultimate good. In general, libertarianism is therefore opposed to collective power.

Corporations represent collective power.

So why don't libertarians have the same attitude towards them as they do to the government? Can I really blame it all on Ayn Rand and her bizarre adoption by libertarians?

I think you misunderstand libertarianism then. Libertarianism does not see the free association of people as something to oppose.

67 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:10:28pm

re: #65 prairiefire

Yes, reverence of Capitalistic power.

Combined with contempt for power derived from democracy. It doesn't make a pretty picture.

68 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:10:43pm

re: #61 Obdicut

Whatever you do, don't watch this in its entirety.

Youtube Video

Sure, there's plenty of bullshit in it, but I figure your bullshit detector is in working order. Not that it matters, since you're going to heed my advice and not watch all 23 parts of it.

69 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:11:45pm

re: #64 000G

Interesting...

[Link: holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com...]
[Link: holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com...]
[Link: holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com...]

Love the exposition of these smear traditions. Boy, there is not a pile in which Beck won't grab in order to have a handful of stinking shit to fling at his enemies in order to see what sticks.

BTW, don't be confused by my usage of "moonbat" there. As a leftie myself (well, at least by American standards) I used a kind of a universalized def of the term, to denote any political extremists (in a "I take this word back" attempt). In retrospect, if it needs an explanation, it's not really worth it ;)

70 prairiefire  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:13:17pm

re: #67 SanFranciscoZionist

Combined with contempt for power derived from democracy. It doesn't make a pretty picture.

The capitalistic centered good 'ol boys in my area have plenty of political power as well.

71 JeffFX  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:14:00pm

re: #69 Sergey Romanov

BTW, don't be confused by my usage of "moonbat" there. As a leftie myself (well, at least by American standards) I used a kind of a universalized def of the term, to denote any political extremists (in a "I take this word back" attempt). In retrospect, if it needs an explanation, it's not really worth it ;)

Sure, but the Moonbat pic on your original link is very cute.
[Link: holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com...]

72 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:15:18pm

re: #62 SanFranciscoZionist

Possibly. I think there is a strain of thought--I don't even know if I'd call it libertarian, which means so many different things to so many different people--that power achieved through business is somehow more deserved than power achieved through politics, and that the former should be not only rewarded but adulated.

Quite frankly, I think it is because libertarians have learned that you can fight for personal freedom, civil liberties etc. all you want but at the end of the day the bills still have to be paid. So fundamentally, when push comes to shove, libertarians, by traditional habit, will always side with the fiscally conservative (whether that actually helps in getting the bills paid and if so by causation or correlation, are completely different questions).

From an outsider (european) perspective, it's a weird concept: Americans, especially as individuals, emancipated themselves from the shackles of traditional failed politics, but the means by which they achieved this, namely economic prosperity, shackled them again. You could almost see it as an internal battle of freedoms (not just powers) with each other.

73 recusancy  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:16:28pm

re: #66 BryanS

I think you misunderstand libertarianism then. Libertarianism does not see the free association of people as something to oppose.

So they are pro union?

74 BryanS  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:16:38pm

re: #63 ralphieboy

Well, corporations are "legal persons" under our law, which we have come to confuse with real persons.

Real persons have personal physical, moral and spiritual needs, have families, raise children, get sick, etc.

Corporations don't.

"If you cut me, do I not bleed?"

-No

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. The purpose of corporations was to be a form of legal protection for stockholders in the company. A stockholder, while able to vote on the governance of a corporation, is not the right person to hold legally liable for the malfeasance of a corporation.

So is it really correct to view corporations as simply a free association of people when the liability of the individuals' actions is no longer there? Corporations achieve a sort of person-hood by virtue of needing a legal entity to hold responsible for malfeasance. The rights of a corporation should really be limited to viewing it as the property rights of the shareholders, not some new entity that has all the other properties of personhood.

75 AK-47%  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:20:21pm

re: #74 BryanS


And if a corporation commits murder, should it be subject to the death penalty?

And should gay corporations be allowed to merge? Or openly serve as defense contractors?

76 Lidane  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:20:35pm

re: #11 apox

How does a majority vote for this. Jesus.

Because they buy into the Fox News bullshit that tax cuts and free markets solve everything, just as Supply Side Jesus teaches us, and if you disagree, you're a filthy bleeding heart, unpatriotic pinhead, or you're a RINO who isn't a "real conservative".

If the GOP has mastered anything in the last 40+ years, it's convincing millions of poor and middle class people to keep voting against their own interests. The Tea Party is just more proof of that.

77 BryanS  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:23:23pm

re: #73 recusancy

So they are pro union?

I wouldn't call libertarianism anti-union per se. They would be opposed to things like card check as an infringement on the process of both parties freely deciding to enter into an association for the purpose of negotiating wages. Libertarians would also oppose any regulations that give unions privileged rights--like for instance in Wisconsin, arbitration rules give teachers unions a 5% raise as the starting point for mandatory minimum raises if a contract is not agreed to outside of needing arbitration.

78 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:24:20pm

re: #38 Sergey Romanov

Thank you, Obdicut! Those vicious smears are by the guy with a massive butthurt, who happens to be a far-right loon (on his private forum, now deleted but available through web archive, he complained that Colin Powell was such a disappointment because he was a moderate) with some, ahem, "closet" problems.

Oh, you are THAT guy. Man, I remember that e-drama when it arrived on Wikipedia and its blacklists.

79 AK-47%  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:24:43pm

re: #77 BryanS

Public education in general must be a bit of a sticky wicket for Libertarians, no?

80 recusancy  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:25:18pm

re: #76 Lidane

Because they buy into the Fox News bullshit that tax cuts and free markets solve everything, just as Supply Side Jesus teaches us, and if you disagree, you're a filthy bleeding heart, unpatriotic pinhead, or you're a RINO who isn't a "real conservative".

If the GOP has mastered anything in the last 40+ years, it's convincing millions of poor and middle class people to keep voting against their own interests. The Tea Party is just more proof of that.

Love Supply Side Jesus. Another Al Franken great.

81 lostlakehiker  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:25:21pm

A safety engineer I came to know had a different take on this.

BP wasn’t to blame because “accidents happen.”

... because “accidents happen ” when you don't know what you're doing and don't much care.

Anybody know much about chemistry? True Dilbert Boss moment...executive wants to look good, insists that industrial ammonia tanks be made not out of ordinary steel, which might corrode, but instead, out of stainless steel.

BP has one of the worst safety records in the industry. BP lied about the size of the oil spill in the early going.

The Obama administration isn't mainly to blame, but it hasn't been all that candid. Engineers and scientists have complained that their names were quoted as having signed off on the necessity and desirability of a blanket ban on drilling in the gulf, when they in fact said no such thing.

You can find more in this vein as easily as I

82 Lidane  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:25:31pm

re: #77 BryanS

I wouldn't call libertarianism anti-union per se.

I would, especially when you get to the anarcho-capitalist strain of libertarianism that both Ron and Rand Paul espouse.

83 BryanS  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:25:51pm

re: #75 ralphieboy

And if a corporation commits murder, should it be subject to the death penalty?

And should gay corporations be allowed to merge? Or openly serve as defense contractors?

The equivalent of it, sure. In that case, typically individuals can also be held directly liable if murder was committed.

Regarding the second point, I think the current policy is don't ask don't tell :)

84 AK-47%  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:27:02pm

re: #83 BryanS

The equivalent of it, sure. In that case, typically individuals can also be held directly liable if murder was committed.
Regarding the second point, I think the current policy is don't ask don't tell :)

so who's asking?

85 recusancy  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:27:04pm

re: #77 BryanS

Interesting. I'd love to meet a libertarian who doesn't automatically add the word "thug" to every sentence with the word "union" in it.

86 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:29:15pm

re: #75 ralphieboy

And if a corporation commits murder, should it be subject to the death penalty?

And should gay corporations be allowed to merge? Or openly serve as defense contractors?

The invisible hand

87 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:29:18pm

Curb stomp = "Now, now, everyone behave please.
190M+ gal. of oil in the gulf = "Whoopsie. No big, though."
/Kentucky, what have you done?

88 BryanS  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:29:28pm

re: #79 ralphieboy

Public education in general must be a bit of a sticky wicket for Libertarians, no?

I personally don't have a problem with it. I think you get extremist versions of libertarianism just like you do for conservatism and liberalism. In my mind, public education is absolutely necessary in order ensure equal opportunity to succeed. I would agree with efforts designed to introduce some elements of competition into public education at the primary and secondary levels, but ultimately it's availability needs to be guaranteed.

89 Lidane  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:29:47pm

OT, but this is, sadly, not a surprise at all:

Neo-Nazis March In Support Of SB-1070 In Arizona

*sigh*

90 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:29:53pm

"This is why Paul hid from the press during his election; he’s an apologist for big corporations, and he knew it wouldn’t play well with the public. "

I dunno. Paul was so obviously out of sync with most eastern and central Kentucky (re: poor and working poor) it's hard to believe that anything he could say would endear him to working class Kentuckians - the bulk of the state.

So, as a native born Bluegrasser, I just have to conclude that Conway never stood a chance because Paul didn't run against Conway, he ran against the black guy. You know, they guy who is black. And president. Yup. Kentucky has a lot of bigots. There just is no other reasonable explanation.

Bend me over and fuck me dead. I never wanted to live in the 50's, but here we are.

91 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:30:41pm

re: #88 BryanS

I personally don't have a problem with it. I think you get extremist versions of libertarianism just like you do for conservatism and liberalism. In my mind, public education is absolutely necessary in order ensure equal opportunity to succeed. I would agree with efforts designed to introduce some elements of competition into public education at the primary and secondary levels, but ultimately it's availability needs to be guaranteed.

As far as libertarianism goes, I am pretty sure the extremism has been mainstreamed long ago.

I could be wrong though. Have only really educated myself about that tradition for a couple of months now.

92 AK-47%  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:31:39pm

re: #88 BryanS

glad to hear that

93 Quant  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:33:00pm

re: #59 Sergey Romanov

I understand some criticism of Soros when it comes to his business, but I judge him by his "social" deeds and find him to be a decent human being overall, especially for what he did in Russia. And these attacks are simply beyond the pale (not to mention the stupidity of it all).

Soros' Open Society Foundation has also done some excellent work in South Africa with regard to AIDS education, domestic violence and rape, as well as promoting freedom of the press and entrepreneurship, to name just a few of the areas in which they have been involved.

94 lostlakehiker  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:35:15pm

re: #76 Lidane

Because they buy into the Fox News bullshit that tax cuts and free markets solve everything, just as Supply Side Jesus teaches us, and if you disagree, you're a filthy bleeding heart, unpatriotic pinhead, or you're a RINO who isn't a "real conservative".

If the GOP has mastered anything in the last 40+ years, it's convincing millions of poor and middle class people to keep voting against their own interests. The Tea Party is just more proof of that.

Ah, yes. The People are just too stupid to know that the Good Party is better for them than the Bad Party. Never mind that from time the Good Party lays an egg and needs its wings trimmed.

Consider the Carter years. Inflation ripping along at close to 20%, gas rationing, maintenance neglected in the military to the point that half the copters and jets on a typical aircraft carrier were not service ready.

[And failed when the rescue raid into Iran was attempted.]

All of that is absolutely inexcusable. If the Good Party is to earn the right to lead, it must at a bare minimum tend to business, keep deficit spending in check, keep inflation in check, see to it that the military is not starved, and just generally be a steward.

The voters know a little something about the long term national interest, at least when it comes to mistakes the likes of which have been made time and again, with the same miserable consequences each time. The long term is where we all live, when you take into account that we have families we care about.

The difficulty with AGW is that this is a new mistake. It's a biggie, but the public hasn't really caught on yet because the argument that nothing of the sort has ever happened before carries a lot of weight.

Then again, there were always plenty of passenger pigeons, until there weren't. The argument that something can't happen if it hasn't happened before is flawed.

95 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:35:28pm

re: #74 BryanS

Exactly. Corporations, in their current form, are not associations of individuals. Well-said.

96 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:35:58pm

re: #78 000G

Oh, you are THAT guy. Man, I remember that e-drama when it arrived on Wikipedia and its blacklists.

Bwahaha! This is a small world. :)

97 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:38:17pm

re: #94 lostlakehiker

And your ideal solution is:

___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___

98 BryanS  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:38:33pm

re: #91 000G

As far as libertarianism goes, I am pretty sure the extremism has been mainstreamed long ago.

I could be wrong though. Have only really educated myself about that tradition for a couple of months now.

Barry Goldwater was libertarian. He pretty much loathed the social cons in the party of the day. But really since the 90s the social cons have been riding rough shod over the party. That also tend to leave only the more extreme elements of libertarianism still in the fight.

99 AK-47%  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:38:48pm

re: #94 lostlakehiker

I think you are off on an unncessecary tangent: the discsussion at this point is not necessarily Democratic Party vs. Republican Party but rather Tea Party vs. Republican Party

100 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:39:43pm

re: #81 lostlakehiker

A safety engineer I came to know had a different take on this.

... because “accidents happen ” when you don't know what you're doing and don't much care.

Anybody know much about chemistry? True Dilbert Boss moment...executive wants to look good, insists that industrial ammonia tanks be made not out of ordinary steel, which might corrode, but instead, out of stainless steel.

BP has one of the worst safety records in the industry. BP lied about the size of the oil spill in the early going.

The Obama administration isn't mainly to blame, but it hasn't been all that candid. Engineers and scientists have complained that their names were quoted as having signed off on the necessity and desirability of a blanket ban on drilling in the gulf, when they in fact said no such thing.

You can find more in this vein as easily as I

And finally, BP made the bad decisions on this, BP and no one else.

Cement job was bad? Meh. Ignore the results showing that, and proceed, full steam ahead! Let's blow this mutha up . . .

OK sorry folks, I can't help it, I am steamed, really really, steamed, with BP, and with their attempts to deflect blame away from themselves and onto others. The real cause of this thing (and the possible "fixes" for it) will not be discovered if BP is successfully able to deflect attention away from themselves, and onto someone else (most notably right now, everybody's boogeyman, Halliburton, and because they're everybody's boogeyman, it's very easy to shove some blame their way).

Obama and his administration did the best that could have been done in this unprecedented situation (same way I feel about Bush and Katrina, BTW). Mistakes and missteps? Sure, you betcha - but I don't see how anything could have been done differently, even the damned moratorium which of course everyone knows I completely disagree with.

End of rant.

101 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:41:29pm

re: #97 negativ

And your ideal solution is:

___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___

I'VE GOT A GOOD FEELING ABOUT THIS?

102 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:42:30pm

re: #81 lostlakehikerTrue Dilbert Boss moment...executive wants to look good, insists that industrial ammonia tanks be made not out of ordinary steel, which might corrode, but instead, out of stainless steel.

It's darkly amusing to watch BP and Haliburton playing Blame Tennis with each other. And of course the punchline is that one or the other or both of them will be held liable in some insignificant way, and afterwards they'll clink their glasses together, drink up, and go about business as usual.

103 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:42:35pm

Psychic Kids: Children of the Paranormal.

Youtube Video

The A&E Channel has a new show coming up: Psychic Kids: Children of the Paranormal. Sounds awful already, doesn't it? But it's worse than you think: they're looking for disturbed kids who think they've got magic powers, and then they're flying in "professional psychics" to coach them in dealing with their awesome powers, i.e., indulge their delusions, get off on feeling superior to unhappy kids, and collect a paycheck for psychic child abuse.

They're putting kids in the hands of a creepy skeevo like Chip Coffey, all for your entertainment.

104 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:43:29pm

re: #101 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I see what you did there.

105 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:44:14pm

re: #104 negativ

I see what you did there.

I was wondering if it would be picked up on.

106 bluecheese  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:45:52pm

off topic.

Undocumented immigrants = Rats.

at least according to this guy.

Youtube Video
107 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:49:18pm

Muslim Socialist bows the Aqua Buddha!
Outrage!

108 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:49:20pm

Now if only we could get all of those demon fighters to send Rand Paul back to his home evil dimension.

109 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:50:12pm

re: #103 Slumbering Behemoth

Psychic Kids: Children of the Paranormal.


[Video]

And such is the state of science education in America.

110 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:51:14pm

re: #106 bluecheese

Damn. Not just calling them rats, but saying "... can go out there and multiply like rats, I guess".

What a swell guy.

111 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:52:19pm

re: #109 LudwigVanQuixote

And such is the state of science education in America.

Wow. That's going to be...wow.

Thank God, I do not GET A&E. This will save me the trouble of having to threaten to take my business away from them.

112 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:52:28pm

re: #89 Lidane

OT, but this is, sadly, not a surprise at all:

Neo-Nazis March In Support Of SB-1070 In Arizona

*sigh*

Did I mention that the real Nazis are on the right? I know I should not say such things, but when I see such things or hear of such things, some part of my Jewish soul thinks "target rich environment."

And by the way, I will never apologize for wanting Nazis dead.

113 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:52:44pm

re: #108 LudwigVanQuixote

Now if only we could get all of those demon fighters to send Rand Paul back to his home evil dimension.

Harder then you would think. Why do you think he's here in this dimension? Even the folks in the evil demon dimension don't want him.

114 recusancy  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:54:20pm

John McCain is an incredible tool. And so is his wife.

115 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:54:25pm

re: #113 Slumbering Behemoth

Harder then you would think. Why do you think he's here in this dimension? Even the folks in the evil demon dimension don't want him.

So, basically, you've got our exorcists pushing as hard as they can on one side, and the demon exorcists pushing as hard as they can on the other side...

We need an advantage here, people. Think hard.

116 Linden Arden  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:55:07pm

The Libertarian mantra is to "let the market punish bad corporations".

Reason Magazine had a piece on how the punitive fines handed down to Exxon for the Valdez spill was "government intrusion" for crying out loud.

Little Paul is just spouting his lines he was taught.

117 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:55:20pm

re: #111 SanFranciscoZionist

Wow. That's going to be...wow.

Thank God, I do not GET A&E. This will save me the trouble of having to threaten to take my business away from them.

Yeah to say the least.

The original comment on this was dead on.

They are going to find the messed up goth kids and encourage them to believe that they really are "otherkin" and vampires and aura warriors - complete with the validation of being on national television.

I have an aunt who is convinced of her fluffy "psychic" intuition.

When she gets overly annoying about all the "information" she gets from the spirit world about the future, I ask her why she was so damn quiet on 9/9, and 9/10.

118 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:55:44pm

re: #113 Slumbering Behemoth

Harder then you would think. Why do you think he's here in this dimension? Even the folks in the evil demon dimension don't want him.

Heh.

"Luap Nor is nuttier than squirrel poo."
-Beelzebub

119 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:57:19pm

re: #114 recusancy

John McCain is an incredible tool. And so is his wife.

I don't know what is the sicker option - that he believes his BS or that he doesn't but uses it as a political cudgel anyway.

120 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:57:22pm

re: #114 recusancy

John McCain is an incredible tool. And so is his wife.

McCain is no longer a maverick - remember that.

He is the most politically craven of the major GOP candidates. He actually stands for so little, he could almost be Ralph Reid.

121 webevintage  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:57:24pm

I've decided that I hate Rand Paul as much and in the same way I hate President Palin.
And that's lots.
Dangerous fucking grifters.

BTW, here is a fun puzzle from the NYTs today.
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
Interactive solve the deficit/budget problems.
HINT; you can't do it without cutting defense and things the well off would rather not see happen.

122 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:57:41pm

re: #112 LudwigVanQuixote

I know I should not say such things...

That's probably when you shouldn't. You are a very intelligent man, LVQ. I understand that this stuff makes you angry, it makes me angry too.

I just hate to see you fall into using demonizing rhetoric much the same way as those on the far right do. I think it's far beneath of man of your obvious quality to do so.

123 AK-47%  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:58:21pm

re: #119 Sergey Romanov

It is pure political expediency on his part.

124 webevintage  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:58:38pm

re: #114 recusancy

John McCain is an incredible tool. And so is his wife.

Yes, yes they are.
I don't get Cindy...she is the one with the power (the money) in that marriage but she continually allows him to humiliate her in public.

125 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:58:40pm

re: #101 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

George Lucas is planning a new romantic comedy with that title, starring Harrison Ford as Han Solo and Kate Hudson as a magazine editor. The plucky young lass spends all her time trying to get through to the aged and salty yet mischievous and lovable cargo smuggler, who always has a Bad Feeling About This every time he finds himself in the vicinity of Imperial authorities. Her self-appointed crusade is to get him to quit being such a negative party pooper and learn to make lemonade out of a lemon situation. By the time the movie ends, Han learns to be a good listener and care about her feelings. They go shopping together as the credits roll.

126 bluecheese  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:59:05pm

re: #110 Slumbering Behemoth

Damn. Not just calling them rats, but saying "... can go out there and multiply like rats, I guess".

What a swell guy.

Swell indeed. Because classifying a group of people in such dehumanizing terms like "rats" has had such excellent results in the past.

I wonder about some people.

127 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:59:39pm

re: #121 webevintage

I've decided that I hate Rand Paul as much and in the same way I hate President Palin.
And that's lots.
Dangerous fucking grifters.

BTW, here is a fun puzzle from the NYTs today.
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
Interactive solve the deficit/budget problems.
HINT; you can't do it without cutting defense and things the well off would rather not see happen.

That's what i liked about the deficit commission's early report...no sacred cow was spared. We'll all need to compromise if we're serious about getting our debt back under control.

128 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:00:41pm

re: #126 bluecheese

Oh, and by "swell guy" I meant "disgusting pig".

129 webevintage  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:02:03pm

re: #103 Slumbering Behemoth

Psychic Kids: Children of the Paranormal.

Ugh.
I watched that once for mocking purposes but turned it off because yeah, it just seemed creepy and damaging to the kids involved.
But I also think the Duggers and the Kate/8 folks and anyone who puts their kids on a reality show has in some way damaged them.

131 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:07:14pm

re: #122 Slumbering Behemoth

That's probably when you shouldn't. You are a very intelligent man, LVQ. I understand that this stuff makes you angry, it makes me angry too.

I just hate to see you fall into using demonizing rhetoric much the same way as those on the far right do. I think it's far beneath of man of your obvious quality to do so.

Look at the link. These are actual neo-Nazis marching openly. Once someone is animal enough to be a Nazi, what can you say worse that demonizes them?

I understand the whole, free speech is great so long as you agree with people thing. I believe in the social contract - which is why I am not advocating just killing them. Just to repeat, I am not advocating that - though for certain they would advocate killing members of my family and myself.

Remember, these are actual real live zeig heil Nazi scum.

I am being honest about where the borders of what "free speech" I think is protected. There is such a thing as sedition. There are legal limits on free speech as it is. However, I don't want this to become a specious legal diversion.

Those are Nazi scum wannabes. I am a Jew. I see them and my first natural thought is about what they would do to my family if they could - and my second thoughts turn to how much a better planet it would be if such monsters were removed.

132 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:07:54pm

re: #12 Sergey Romanov

Russian lizard! Fabulous. Welcome.

133 JeffFX  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:09:11pm

re: #109 LudwigVanQuixote

And such is the state of science education in America.

Charlatans preying on troubled kids. Charming. Oh A&E, what have you become.

134 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:10:02pm

re: #103 Slumbering Behemoth

Psychic Kids: Children of the Paranormal.


[Video]

In regard to this, as well as to a recent exorcism thread, here's a Russian report (with Eng. subs) on exorcism by Russian Orthodox priests:

Youtube Video

This is from a program by a pretty reactionary asshole who swallows this BS whole. Mentally unstable people are being exploited here and there.

135 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:11:32pm

re: #117 LudwigVanQuixote

They are going to find the messed up goth kids and encourage them to believe that they really are "otherkin" and vampires and aura warriors - complete with the validation of being on national television.

I don't want to go into too much detail, but I'l like to point out from extensive experience that actual goth kids (at least the ones who self-identified thusly in the mid-to-late 80s) would have nothing but the most vicious and venomous mockery and derision for "otherkin" and vampires and aura warriors.

136 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:12:05pm

re: #130 Slumbering Behemoth

What your lawn says about you.

Heh. Actually, some of my neighbors grumble not-too-privately about my lawn; i mow it but refuse to water or fertilize it, being the swell eco-conscious republican conundrum that i am. If i get lucky enough for it to completely die off, i'll re-seed it with a native grass variant which doesn't need to be watered or fertilized, but it's teetered on the brink of death all summer...

137 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:14:09pm

re: #135 negativ

I don't want to go into too much detail, but I'l like to point out from extensive experience that actual goth kids (at least the ones who self-identified thusly in the mid-to-late 80s) would have nothing but the most vicious and venomous mockery and derision for "otherkin" and vampires and aura warriors.

The ones in the mid to late 80s were an offshoot of punk and had nothing to do with the modern incarnation save a penchant for black eye-liner.

138 engineer cat  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:16:49pm

re: #122 Slumbering Behemoth

I just hate to see you fall into using demonizing rhetoric much the same way as those on the far right do. I think it's far beneath of man of your obvious quality to do so.

more broadly than just this particular question is a serious issue that i think has many of us progressives worried, which is

when you are in a political environment where one side will engage in all manner of demonizing lying rhetoric and outrageous lies, progressives have a choice as to whether to continue to bring a water pistol to a machine gun battle by patiently adducing facts and constructing logical argument - all in vain - or, on the other hand, to attempt to compete by fighting fire with fire

so, demonizing rhetoric i don't have so much of a problem with, in principle - the only problem, of course, is that to really fight fire with fire 100% in this case would mean outrageous lying and cheating

139 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:17:19pm

re: #108 LudwigVanQuixote

Now if only we could get all of those demon fighters to send Rand Paul back to his home evil dimension.

Calling MintBerryCrunch!

140 Lidane  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:17:23pm

re: #94 lostlakehiker

It's not about one party being Good and the other Bad. At the end of the day, the choice between the two often comes down to a giant douche and a turd sandwich.

HOWEVER, it can't be denied that the Republicans have literally spent the last 40+ years blatantly pandering to the idiocy and biases of people, particularly in the South, in order to win elections, while simultaneously shitting all over the people they get to vote for them. If you can't see this, it's not my problem.

141 webevintage  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:18:54pm

re: #136 Aceofwhat?

Heh. Actually, some of my neighbors grumble not-too-privately about my lawn; i mow it but refuse to water or fertilize it, being the swell eco-conscious republican conundrum that i am. If i get lucky enough for it to completely die off, i'll re-seed it with a native grass variant which doesn't need to be watered or fertilized, but it's teetered on the brink of death all summer...

Lawn, what lawn?
We have weeds that look like grass when it is cut.
No water for it, if you water it then grows and you have to cut the lawn.
Viscous circle...or so my teenage slave says.

I do water the gardens until about mid-August and then I lose the war was heat and drought and everything dies.

142 Lidane  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:21:38pm

re: #136 Aceofwhat?

If i get lucky enough for it to completely die off, i'll re-seed it with a native grass variant which doesn't need to be watered or fertilized, but it's teetered on the brink of death all summer...

Or just do what a friend of mine convinced his parents to do back when we were in high school. Convert your lawn into a zen rock garden and get rid of your lawnmower entirely. Heh.

143 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:22:00pm

re: #131 LudwigVanQuixote

Oh, I am not disputing any of that. Those are in fact nazi scumbags. No question. It's just that some things are probably better left unsaid. At least on LGF, anyhow.

144 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:22:22pm

re: #140 Lidane

while simultaneously shitting all over the people they get to vote for them

forgive me, i may have missed something upthread, but what specifically are you referring to here?

merci

145 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:23:37pm

re: #142 Lidane

Or just do what a friend of mine convinced his parents to do back when we were in high school. Convert your lawn into a zen rock garden and get rid of your lawnmower entirely. Heh.

Trust me...that idea is more tempting than a fried oreo...but it's hard enough keeping my kids clean as it is!

146 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:23:53pm

Paulian gets sick, can't afford insurance, big bills, questions own ridiculous beliefs....
Last week I was hospitalized - Healthcare

Last week I was hospitalized and went through hell. I haven't been around to know anything about what was going on here at the dailypaul or in the liberty movement. Anyway I have no insurance and the only way for me to pay for my medications and treatment was to apply for medicaid ... that's what the hospital told me.
....
This all got me thinking. I hold the paleoconservative/libertarian position on healthcare and still have, however, this got me thinking that no wonder the other side fights so fervently about this. There are people such as myself that simply cannot live. You are attacking their existence.
...
My position has always been that socialism is evil, but if people want to voluntarily form groups, they should be allowed to pool their healthcare or savings together. The primary point being that no one is forced into a system.

147 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:24:44pm

re: #138 engineer dog

the only problem, of course, is that to really fight fire with fire 100% in this case would mean outrageous lying and cheating

I have no doubt that Ludwig is certainly above using such tactics, as most good Lizards are.

148 Lidane  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:24:58pm

re: #144 Aceofwhat?

Nothing specific, per se. Someone upthread asked how people keep voting for candidates like Rand Paul and the current GOP. I gave my answer, and someone else didn't like it. That's all. Just the normal give and take of an internet debate. :)

149 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:26:35pm

re: #137 LudwigVanQuixote

The ones in the mid to late 80s were an offshoot of punk and had nothing to do with the modern incarnation save a penchant for black eye-liner.

Well, kinda.

Notably, we managed to endure getting the piss beaten out of ourselves, sometimes to the point of requiring medical intervention with the implied consent of school officials, parents, and the local police department, none of whom ever saw fit to do anything about it.

This incident happened nearly a decade after I left the area, but it didn't surprise me in the least.

150 Lidane  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:26:51pm

re: #145 Aceofwhat?

Trust me...that idea is more tempting than a fried oreo...but it's hard enough keeping my kids clean as it is!

Use gravel instead of sand for the garden. Your kids will definitely stay clean that way, since they'll be less inclined to run around a giant gravel pit than a giant sandbox. ;)

151 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:27:42pm

re: #146 Killgore Trout

Paulian gets sick, can't afford insurance, big bills, questions own ridiculous beliefs...
Last week I was hospitalized - Healthcare

In short: not intellectually honest enough to let the almighty market forces play out in response to his choice to forgo private insurance...

152 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:28:07pm

re: #148 Lidane

Nothing specific, per se. Someone upthread asked how people keep voting for candidates like Rand Paul and the current GOP. I gave my answer, and someone else didn't like it. That's all. Just the normal give and take of an internet debate. :)

no problem. go get 'em!

153 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:29:44pm

re: #146 Killgore Trout

Paulian gets sick, can't afford insurance, big bills, questions own ridiculous beliefs...
Last week I was hospitalized - Healthcare

I guess it's not good to mock people in such situation, but I can't help it. They're all so high and mighty until this personally affects them.

154 Artist  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:29:53pm

re: #46 Charles

Welcome to the jungle, Sergey.

This is too good to pass up:

Youtube Video

:D

155 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:31:13pm

re: #150 Lidane

Use gravel instead of sand for the garden. Your kids will definitely stay clean that way, since they'll be less inclined to run around a giant gravel pit than a giant sandbox. ;)

= kids less inclined to play outside!! not a lot of winning options...but i'm not going to fertilize and then rinse it all into the gutter, i can promise you that.

156 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:33:05pm

re: #153 Sergey Romanov

I guess it's not good to mock people in such situation, but I can't help it. They're all so high and mighty until this personally affects them.

It's a sad situation. I just skimmed the comments and most of his fellow libertarian buddies are encouraging him to heal himself of use alternative/ herbal medicine.

157 JeffFX  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:34:02pm

re: #156 Killgore Trout

It's a sad situation. I just skimmed the comments and most of his fellow libertarian buddies are encouraging him to heal himself of use alternative/ herbal medicine.

Wow, Libertarianism and the loopy-left meet.

158 blueraven  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:35:20pm

re: #146 Killgore Trout

Paulian gets sick, can't afford insurance, big bills, questions own ridiculous beliefs...
Last week I was hospitalized - Healthcare

And this was about himself...if it were his child, I would bet his views would be further challenged.

There can be nothing worse than a parents helplessness due to finances, when their child's health or very life is at stake.

159 engineer cat  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:35:26pm

re: #147 Slumbering Behemoth

I have no doubt that Ludwig is certainly above using such tactics, as most good Lizards are.

certainly, i should think we all are

but how to you fight the giant lie machine?

160 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:37:14pm

re: #90 Jeff In Ohio

"This is why Paul hid from the press during his election; he’s an apologist for big corporations, and he knew it wouldn’t play well with the public. "

I dunno. Paul was so obviously out of sync with most eastern and central Kentucky (re: poor and working poor) it's hard to believe that anything he could say would endear him to working class Kentuckians - the bulk of the state.

So, as a native born Bluegrasser, I just have to conclude that Conway never stood a chance because Paul didn't run against Conway, he ran against the black guy. You know, they guy who is black. And president. Yup. Kentucky has a lot of bigots. There just is no other reasonable explanation.

Bend me over and fuck me dead. I never wanted to live in the 50's, but here we are.

What an interesting choice of words, with the pending zombie apocalypse and all... ;-P

161 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:37:22pm

re: #159 engineer dog

certainly, i should think we all are

but how to you fight the giant lie machine?

I prefer fighting it with truth. I feel much better about myself that way.

Fighting fire with fire almost always results in all your shit turning to ash.

162 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:37:27pm

re: #156 Killgore Trout

It's a sad situation. I just skimmed the comments and most of his fellow libertarian buddies are encouraging him to heal himself of use alternative/ herbal medicine.

Yeah, pieces of advice like "Anything going on with the bowels like IBS or IBD, I would take yourself to a very experienced homeopath" will reeeally help him.

163 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:39:33pm

re: #154 SteelPH

If there's any justice at all, Guns n Roses will be put inside a rocket and shot into the sun. Their music is very nearly as terrible as that of Motley Crue, and that's saying a lot.

164 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:39:52pm

re: #159 engineer dog

certainly, i should think we all are

but how to you fight the giant lie machine?

I would say that "fire with fire" is not "lies with lies" but rather "extra-logical arguments with extra-logical arguments". And by the latter I mean a little bit of decent PR, without any deception.

165 Interesting Times  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:40:24pm

re: #159 engineer dog

but how to you fight the giant lie machine?

Harry Truman said it best: "I don't give them Hell. I just tell the truth about them and they think it's Hell."

The trouble with Democrats today is that they either can't or won't tell the most important truths about the right-wing extremist monster the GOP has become.

166 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:40:24pm

re: #162 Sergey Romanov

Given the principles of homeopathy, wouldn't the best homeopath just be a guy who once was in a room with an experienced homeopath, ten years ago?

167 Interesting Times  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:42:12pm

re: #166 Obdicut

Given the principles of homeopathy, wouldn't the best homeopath just be a guy who once was in a room with an experienced homeopath, ten years ago?

[Link: xkcd.com...]

168 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:43:54pm

re: #163 negativ

If there's any justice at all, Guns n Roses will be put inside a rocket and shot into the sun. Their music is very nearly as terrible as that of Motley Crue, and that's saying a lot.

Slash is legit, though. That guy can play.

169 webevintage  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:44:24pm

re: #153 Sergey Romanov

I guess it's not good to mock people in such situation, but I can't help it. They're all so high and mighty until this personally affects them.

Of course not.
I wonder if he has asked his parents (he's only 20 or 21) if they will take him back on their insurance since children under 26 can be added to their parents policies.
(of course now that he has a pre-existing condition the cost will be much higher...that is assuming if he has parents and/or they have insurance.)

170 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:45:15pm

re: #166 Obdicut

re: #167 publicityStunted

winners

171 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:46:31pm

re: #158 blueraven

And this was about himself...if it were his child, I would bet his views would be further challenged.

There can be nothing worse than a parents helplessness due to finances, when their child's health or very life is at stake.

Instead, he's a foolish kid of 21, who has spent his recent years lost in a Randian haze, and now suddenly is slapped back to reality. I'm surprised Atlas Shrugged doesn't have a verse for how to never suffer disease.

Instead, he'll go see a homeopath, and then he'll come back worse, because most of the herbal treatments will exacerbate ulcerative colitis. Hopefully he will come back before his liver fails or he develops a cholangiocarcinoma. And then he'll have a colectomy, a colostomy for life, paid for by the government, and then he can return to his computer and continue to rant against the socialists and parasites.

172 engineer cat  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:46:49pm

re: #161 Slumbering Behemoth

re: #164 Sergey Romanov

re: #165 publicityStunted

i don't mean to suggest that we lie, not at all

but somehow debunking lies and, as harry truman put it, talking sense - aren't doing the job

non-wingnuts, even regular republicans, are getting killed by the giant lie maching, who fake reality every day covers up the truth more and more

173 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:47:04pm

re: #168 Aceofwhat?

Slash is legit, though. That guy can play.

Tru dat...if anyone from GnR deserves to be shot into the sun, it's that prissy prick Axl Rose.

174 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:47:19pm

OT- I wish to thank FBV for the prayer. It worked.

175 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:47:25pm

Update:


Geraldo Rivera who for so long has vocally opposed 911Truth has changed his mind.
176 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:48:28pm

re: #173 talon_262

Tru dat...if anyone from GnR deserves to be shot into the sun, it's that prissy prick Axl Rose.

you can throw Duff in there as well. never saw that guy do anything i can't do, and i suck.

177 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:48:52pm

re: #166 Obdicut

Given the principles of homeopathy, wouldn't the best homeopath just be a guy who once was in a room with an experienced homeopath, ten years ago?

Don't tell Glenn Beck.

---
I think it was Randi who ate a coupla hundred homeopathic sleeping pills ones to prove the obvious?

178 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:49:43pm

re: #168 Aceofwhat?

Slash is legit, though. That guy can play.

Tommy Stinson is too; current version of G&R only though.

180 engineer cat  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:51:45pm

if the homeopaths are around, can the thespians be far behind?

181 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:52:34pm

OT drive-by comment:

I just posted a page with the embedded full 2-hour documentary, Cities of Light: The Rise and Fall of Islamic Spain, that I found on YouTube a few minutes ago.

I'm just bringing it to your attention here to make sure that anyone who's interested in the topic has a chance to see it, since it could disappear at any time.

P.S. Welcome, Sergey!

Gotta run.... *gone*

182 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:53:45pm

re: #172 engineer dog

Unfortunately, for the"twue believers", you couldn't convince them that the sky is blue if the Teahadi lie machine told them it was orange.

183 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:53:56pm

re: #178 wlewisiii

Tommy Stinson is too; current version of G&R only though.

to be honest, i couldn't pick him out of a crowd...but i'll take your word for it!

184 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:54:31pm

re: #168 Aceofwhat?

Slash is legit, though. That guy can play.

Yeah, he can play the shit out of the minor pentatonic scale, which is like totally ground-breaking or something. Jimi Hendrix, take note.

185 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:57:04pm

re: #177 Sergey Romanov

Don't tell Glenn Beck.

---
I think it was Randi who ate a coupla hundred homeopathic sleeping pills ones to prove the obvious?

It was him. Here he is doing that, as well as debunking psychic frauds.

186 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:57:27pm

re: #160 talon_262

What an interesting choice of words, with the pending zombie apocalypse and all... ;-P

I, for one, welcome my Zombie overlords.

187 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:58:11pm

re: #178 wlewisiii

Tommy Stinson is too; current version of G&R only though.

Slash is a bad mutha, up there with the best of all time IMO...his stuff with Velvet Revolver (what I've heard of it) sounds badass (even though Duff's there too).

188 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:58:34pm

re: #177 Sergey Romanov

ate a coupla hundred homeopathic sleeping pills ones once

Heh, I make these mistakes sometimes, unconsciously.

189 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:58:57pm

re: #6 dragonfire1981

He's right, accidents happen when warnings are ignored, people are paid off to look the other way and profits are put above all else. including the environment.

It's just Luap Dnar logic.

190 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:59:03pm

re: #184 negativ

Yeah, he can play the shit out of the minor pentatonic scale, which is like totally ground-breaking or something. Jimi Hendrix, take note.

that's interesting. i haven't bumped into many folks who don't think that he's at least a decent talent, but i'm not exactly hanging with that sort of crowd these days. are you saying that his repertoire is too limited to deserve much credit? i'm not sure that i could pick up on such a thing on my own, so i'm interested in your .02

191 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:01:13pm

re: #187 talon_262

Slash is a bad mutha, up there with the best of all time IMO...his stuff with Velvet Revolver (what I've heard of it) sounds badass (even though Duff's there too).

i liked VR's stuff too. always been a Scott Weiland fan, but i'd be a much bigger fan if he could keep his dumb ass clean.

192 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:01:44pm

re: #188 Sergey Romanov

Heh, I make these mistakes sometimes, unconsciously.

is English your 2nd language?

193 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:02:01pm

Oh yeah, this is definitely the droid I'm looking for.

194 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:02:33pm

re: #146 Killgore Trout

Paulian gets sick, can't afford insurance, big bills, questions own ridiculous beliefs...
Last week I was hospitalized - Healthcare


Note that even in his sudden crisis of faith, he can't quite bring himself to face the reality of his situation. Instead, 'we' are still attacking 'them' - 'we' are attacking 'those people', those poor, weak souls, and they struggle because without this socialism they'll die. Wake up, kid. You're one of those poor weak souls. You still have faith that the market will save you, and indeed your fellow cultists in the comments are more than happy to step and sell you something. After all, according to them, you can't trust real doctors. Somehow they're, like, liberal or something.

195 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:02:53pm

re: #183 Aceofwhat?

to be honest, i couldn't pick him out of a crowd...but i'll take your word for it!

He's a really good bass player - but then I've been familiar with him since the '80's with The Replacements. The 'Mats & Husker Du - Mini Apple's finest exports.

196 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:05:06pm

re: #185 Slumbering Behemoth

It was him. Here he is doing that, as well as debunking psychic frauds.

I guess he does it all the time :) He mentioned it in a lecture which I attended when I were in Heidelberg in 2006 or 2007.

197 Interesting Times  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:05:16pm

re: #172 engineer dog

but somehow debunking lies and, as harry truman put it, talking sense - aren't doing the job

I think that's because it simply isn't being done right, in terms of both quantity and quality. If every Democrat went on the news and said the exact same things as Charles, with the exact same force and conviction, we might get somewhere (not with the die-hard fox-fawners, of course, but perhaps with low-info voters and disaffected independents).

(as an aside, ABC News, during the midterms, made the claim that, while GOP ads attacked Democratic policy, ads for Democrats consisted of personal attacks against their opponents. If this was in fact true and not an ABC News attempt to be fox-lite, it was a terrible approach on the Democrats' part - they should have run ads pummelling and pulverizing GOP policies with the truth of how damaging it would be to America if enacted)

198 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:06:20pm

re: #192 Aceofwhat?

is English your 2nd language?

Yes, of course.

199 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:07:12pm

My web hosting service changed servers, so now I have to wait to the new domain mapping to propagate, in the meantime you can still buy stuff at the Zionist Mall!

200 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:07:26pm

re: #198 Sergey Romanov

Yes, of course.

it's quite good. not just the grammar, but the nuances and tone as well. high marks-

201 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:09:10pm

re: #197 publicityStunted


(as an aside, ABC News, during the midterms, made the claim that, while GOP ads attacked Democratic policy, ads for Democrats consisted of personal attacks against their opponents. If this was in fact true and not an ABC News attempt to be fox-lite, it was a terrible approach on the Democrats' part - they should have run ads pummelling and pulverizing GOP policies with the truth of how damaging it would be to America if enacted)

I would like to point out that of all the campaign ads I saw, not one Republican ad mentioned their policies or achievements. 100% of the Republican ads stated 'my opponent voted with Obama 95% of the time' or 'my opponent supports the Pelosi agenda'. 100%. Complete identity politics. And it works only because the US media is entirely complicit in promoting their memes. Democrat ads were about evenly split - half described the achievements of the Democrat candidate, the rest attacked the Republican for being a shill for lobbyists/big business.

202 engineer cat  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:09:22pm

re: #182 Slumbering Behemoth

Unfortunately, for the"twue believers", you couldn't convince them that the sky is blue if the Teahadi lie machine told them it was orange.

there will always be low information voters, but what about the giant Orange Sky Industrial Propaganda Complex?

203 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:10:21pm

re: #196 Sergey Romanov

I guess he does it all the time :) He mentioned it in a lecture which I attended when I were in Heidelberg in 2006 or 2007.

Oh, how cool. That must have been fun.

204 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:11:40pm

re: #202 engineer dog

They will always have their "twue believers". Not much can be done about that, I think.

205 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:13:44pm

re: #200 Aceofwhat?

it's quite good. not just the grammar, but the nuances and tone as well. high marks-

LOL, there used to be a Holocaust denier who was going around H-related forums and claiming that I couldn't be a Russian because my language was too good, therefore I was an impostor. (Fortunately, some real people, like Dr. Nick Terry, can confirm that I'm real because they met me in Russia or they sent me some items by snail mail).

206 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:13:51pm

re: #201 Renaissance_Man

I would like to point out that of all the campaign ads I saw, not one Republican ad mentioned their policies or achievements. 100% of the Republican ads stated 'my opponent voted with Obama 95% of the time' or 'my opponent supports the Pelosi agenda'. 100%. Complete identity politics. And it works only because the US media is entirely complicit in promoting their memes. Democrat ads were about evenly split - half described the achievements of the Democrat candidate, the rest attacked the Republican for being a shill for lobbyists/big business.

wasn't much different than the success that Dems had running against Bush at the end of his term, though. makes sense. if the opposition leaders have dug themselves a hole, run against the opposition leaders.

207 lostlakehiker  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:15:37pm

re: #103 Slumbering Behemoth

Psychic Kids: Children of the Paranormal.


[Video]

This is really bad. Stack the reasons.

It's bad because it manifests airy contempt for the long term interests of children. How could they?

It's bad because it panders to and reinforces credulity. This kind of credulity wasn't always so common, and one of the reasons was that religion helped tamp it down. Religions teach, correctly, that magic is not real. We can debate whether religions' own claims are real, but the consequences of believing in magic are altogether different. If you're the sort to believe in magic, absent vehement instruction to the contrary, but you believe in a religion without reservation, miraculous claims included, and instead of chasing after magic you follow the precepts of your faith [any halfway decent religion, I put to the side Aztec, Thuggee, and Scientology, together with KoolAidChristianity and AlQaidaIslam] you'll probably improve your life over what it would be if you used your own not-so-hot judgment. You won't buy into get rich schemes, magical cures you pay for, and so on, because no religion stands for claims that mere humans can work for-real, supernatural magic.

It's bad because it opens the door to real-world frauds by "magicians".

208 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:17:04pm

re: #196 Sergey Romanov

I guess he does it all the time :) He mentioned it in a lecture which I attended when I were in Heidelberg in 2006 or 2007.

Ah yes, he says as much around 12:20 in that TED clip.

209 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:17:19pm

re: #201 Renaissance_Man

I would like to point out that of all the campaign ads I saw, not one Republican ad mentioned their policies or achievements. 100% of the Republican ads stated 'my opponent voted with Obama 95% of the time' or 'my opponent supports the Pelosi agenda'. 100%. Complete identity politics. And it works only because the US media is entirely complicit in promoting their memes. Democrat ads were about evenly split - half described the achievements of the Democrat candidate, the rest attacked the Republican for being a shill for lobbyists/big business.

In my state it was almost all negative in the Senate race, and split in the governor's race about 80-20% in favor of negative. In the Governor's race both candidates ran positive ads, but Pat Quinn ran about 2/3rds of them. The Illinois Senate race saw only 4 positive ads, and Mark Kirk (the Republican) ran 3 of them. Mostly this was because Alexi Ganoullis had to run away from his record (which featured his family's bank being closed for mod ties).

210 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:18:20pm

re: #205 Sergey Romanov

LOL, there used to be a Holocaust denier who was going around H-related forums and claiming that I couldn't be a Russian because my language was too good, therefore I was an impostor. (Fortunately, some real people, like Dr. Nick Terry, can confirm that I'm real because they met me in Russia or they sent me some items by snail mail).

That's funny. I once worked with a gal who I was certain came from a different country, and spoke english as a second language. Why? Because she enunciated her words far too perfectly to be a native speaker. Turns out she was a Russian immigrant.

211 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:18:27pm

re: #205 Sergey Romanov

LOL, there used to be a Holocaust denier who was going around H-related forums and claiming that I couldn't be a Russian because my language was too good, therefore I was an impostor. (Fortunately, some real people, like Dr. Nick Terry, can confirm that I'm real because they met me in Russia or they sent me some items by snail mail).

no worries. Charles' words of support were more than enough for me.

the only problem that i can see is that i'll have to combat a mighty temptation to pester you with questions about Russian politics and goings-on...i will do my best not to distract you every time that i see you logged on!

212 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:18:29pm

A very important announcement.

The Dallas Cowboys lead the New York Giants 16-3.

As you were.

213 Quant  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:18:49pm

re: #156 Killgore Trout

It's a sad situation. I just skimmed the comments and most of his fellow libertarian buddies are encouraging him to heal himself of use alternative/ herbal medicine.


"You know what they call 'alternative medicine' that’s been proved to work? Medicine."
From Tim Minchin's fabulous beat poem, Storm.

214 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:19:05pm

re: #209 Dark_Falcon

In my state it was almost all negative in the Senate race, and split in the governor's race about 80-20% in favor of negative. In the Governor's race both candidates ran positive ads, but Pat Quinn ran about 2/3rds of them. The Illinois Senate race saw only 4 positive ads, and Mark Kirk (the Republican) ran 3 of them. Mostly this was because Alexi Ganoullis had to run away from his record (which featured his family's bank being closed for mod ties).

Giannoulias, PIMF

215 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:20:26pm

re: #212 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

A very important announcement.

The Dallas Cowboys lead the New York Giants 16-3.

As you were.

Wow, that's utterly unexpected. Even more than the Bears winning by two touchdowns today. Hope the Giants come back and join the Bears in victory.

216 engineer cat  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:21:36pm

re: #197 publicityStunted
re: #201 Renaissance_Man

I would like to point out that of all the campaign ads I saw, not one Republican ad mentioned their policies or achievements. 100% of the Republican ads stated 'my opponent voted with Obama 95% of the time' or 'my opponent supports the Pelosi agenda'. 100%. Complete identity politics. And it works only because the US media is entirely complicit in promoting their memes. Democrat ads were about evenly split - half described the achievements of the Democrat candidate, the rest attacked the Republican for being a shill for lobbyists/big business.

progressives have msnbc and comedy central to help get the word out in a way that doesn't put people to sleep, thank god, but apparantly i's not enough

consider, that the political debate is not really about being for or against progressive policies - it's about being against what the Orange Sky Propaganda Machine pretends progressive policies are. for example, Orange Sky reality maintains that:

- HCR bill mandates the federal government taking over the health care industry
- furthermore, obama wants to nationalize all industries
- liberals want to ensure electoral success by making all "minorities" dependent on government handouts
- liberals are all communists and hate business and successful people
- liberals are atheists who hate christians
- social security is a "ponzi scheme" that is broke and is being funded by Our Tax Dollars
- the obama government is "printing money" in large quantities to pay off the TARP debt (which is entirely a democrat policy designed to increase socialism), and the result of this is that soon we will have hyperinflation
- & etc, & etc, & etc ad infinitum

what's next???

217 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:21:46pm

re: #209 Dark_Falcon

In my state it was almost all negative in the Senate race, and split in the governor's race about 80-20% in favor of negative. In the Governor's race both candidates ran positive ads, but Pat Quinn ran about 2/3rds of them. The Illinois Senate race saw only 4 positive ads, and Mark Kirk (the Republican) ran 3 of them. Mostly this was because Alexi Ganoullis had to run away from his record (which featured his family's bank being closed for mod ties).

That Kirk-Gianoullis race was a head-slapper. The not-so war veteran vs. the mob banker who probably wasn't a full-on mob banker due mostly to the fact that he probably hasn't done a full day of actual work in his life...

218 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:22:12pm

re: #212 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

A very important announcement.

The Dallas Cowboys lead the New York Giants 16-3.

As you were.

did you see the ending to the Jags game?

219 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:23:00pm

re: #211 Aceofwhat?

no worries. Charles' words of support were more than enough for me.

the only problem that i can see is that i'll have to combat a mighty temptation to pester you with questions about Russian politics and goings-on...i will do my best not to distract you every time that i see you logged on!

Here's where the difference in time zones comes into play! E.g. now it's 1:22 AM here. I should be sleeping :)

220 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:24:17pm

re: #216 engineer dog

what's next???

Likely some stupid shit that will make all honest observers scratch their heads and mutter "what the fuck".

221 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:24:34pm

re: #190 Aceofwhat?

that's interesting. i haven't bumped into many folks who don't think that he's at least a decent talent, but i'm not exactly hanging with that sort of crowd these days. are you saying that his repertoire is too limited to deserve much credit? i'm not sure that i could pick up on such a thing on my own, so i'm interested in your .02

My opinion is that, as a musician, he's vastly, incomprehensibly overrated. His technique and (far more importantly) his imagination is on par with the typical 15 year-old who insists on inflicting his aggressively out-of-tune and death-before-metronomes version of Metallica's "Orion" on everyone, every Saturday at Guitar Center.

222 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:29:01pm

re: #217 Aceofwhat?

That Kirk-Gianoullis race was a head-slapper. The not-so war veteran vs. the mob banker who probably wasn't a full-on mob banker due mostly to the fact that he probably hasn't done a full day of actual work in his life...

Well, the 2% that ultimately decided it for Kirk decided that Gianoullis was too untrustworthy to be elected. For Illinois, it was a needed bit of political hygiene.

223 Linden Arden  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:30:29pm

re: #218 Aceofwhat?

did you see the ending to the Jags game?

Denver 35 KC 0

After Denver gave up 59 to the Raiders at home.

NFL is fully schizo now.

224 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:30:34pm

re: #218 Aceofwhat?

There is no Jags. There is only Zuul.

225 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:30:47pm

re: #221 negativ

My opinion is that, as a musician, he's vastly, incomprehensibly overrated. His technique and (far more importantly) his imagination is on par with the typical 15 year-old who insists on inflicting his aggressively out-of-tune and death-before-metronomes version of Metallica's "Orion" on everyone, every Saturday at Guitar Center.

huh. maybe my poor ear and others' poor advice had me mislead. thanks for that-

226 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:31:57pm

re: #223 Linden Arden

Denver 35 KC 0

After Denver gave up 59 to the Raiders at home.

NFL is fully schizo now.

and the Browns nearly beating the Jets after beating the Saints and Packers...

227 engineer cat  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:34:53pm

remember that thread a while ago where we all amused ourselves by spouting silly wingnut talking points as fast as we could remember them?

the sad thing is that is what the republican party is running on, and that is what millions of voters believe, and that's what american elections are now about

it's like the actual republican and democratic legislative agendas are a deep dark secret

228 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:35:47pm

re: #224 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

There is no Jags. There is only Zuul.

Are you a god?

229 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:39:47pm

re: #227 engineer dog

remember that thread a while ago where we all amused ourselves by spouting silly wingnut talking points as fast as we could remember them?

the sad thing is that is what the republican party is running on, and that is what millions of voters believe, and that's what american elections are now about

it's like the actual republican and democratic legislative agendas are a deep dark secret

It's easier to scream and shout than to actually try to pass a bill. Trying to pass a bill means you have to compromise and compromise leads to chants of "Unseat the DINO!" or Purge the RINO!!1".

230 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:40:16pm

re: #228 Dark_Falcon

"When someone asks you if you're a god... you say, 'YES!'"
-Winston Zeddemore

231 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:41:14pm

re: #225 Aceofwhat?

huh. maybe my poor ear and others' poor advice had me mislead. thanks for that-

No, no! There are no absolutes in art. You like what you like, and you hate what you hate. Beyond that, it's just a matter of taste.

232 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:41:40pm

re: #231 negativ

There are (shudder) Yoko Ono fans.

233 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:42:42pm

re: #231 negativ

No, no! There are no absolutes in art. You like what you like, and you hate what you hate. Beyond that, it's just a matter of taste.

oh, don't worry. i'm with you there. but i was asking about skill, which is at least partly an objective topic.

234 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:47:19pm

re: #228 Dark_Falcon

Are you a god?

If someone asks you if you're a god, you say YES!

/Winston Zeddemore

235 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 2:47:32pm

re: #230 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

"When someone asks you if you're a god... you say, 'YES!'"
-Winston Zeddemore

GMTA...

236 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 3:05:19pm

re: #233 Aceofwhat?

oh, don't worry. i'm with you there. but i was asking about skill, which is at least partly an objective topic.

If you wanna talk about skill:

Steve Vai
Alan Holdsworth
 The California Guitar Trio

237 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 3:17:57pm

re: #137 LudwigVanQuixote

You have an odd mail...

238 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 3:22:17pm

re: #236 negativ

If you wanna talk about skill:

Steve Vai
Alan Holdsworth
 The California Guitar Trio

thanks...fortunately i'm not so daft that those names are completely foreign to me.

Candyratt records has been my recent favorite treasure trove of skilled musicians.

239 ihateronpaul  Sun, Nov 14, 2010 6:31:03pm

re: #27 Sergey Romanov

The sad thing is that some people following politics here wind up in real coma. Oh well.

ba-zing
sigh


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