Fox Chairman Ailes: NPR Execs Are ‘Nazis’

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Fox News chairman Roger Ailes said yesterday that National Public Radio executives are Nazis.

“They are, of course, Nazis. They have a kind of Nazi attitude. They are the left wing of Nazism. These guys don’t want any other point of view. They don’t even feel guilty using tax dollars to spout their propaganda. They are basically Air America with government funding to keep them alive.” ��

It’s hardly surprising that Ailes would defend Williams or castigate NPR. But trotting out such Third Reich rhetoric seems, shall we say, disproportionate to the situation. NPR spokeswoman Anna Christopher says only that “we will let Mr. Ailes’ words speak for themselves.”

Now we see why Glenn Beck still has a job at Fox. The mental illness goes all the way to the top.

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299 comments
1 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 9:35:31am

"Out of touch" does not begin to describe him.

2 Kronocide  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 9:36:42am

'Fair and Balanced' my ass. Murrow is turning in his grave.

3 kirkspencer  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 9:37:41am

He provides the circus for the GOP. If the Republicans ever figure out how to provide the bread they'll be able to burn down the whole place and not enough people will care.

4 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 9:37:44am
Now we see why Glenn Beck still has a job at Fox. The mental illness goes all the way to the top.

I think it's an interesting window to what goes on behind the scenes at Fox. I always just assumed there was somebody there who's still rational and is manipulating the crazies. It's starting to look like they're all crazy.

5 jc717  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 9:38:55am

And Murdoch is apparently fine with this. Amazing.

6 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 9:40:31am

Ailes knew exactly what he was saying and the reaction he would get. The substantial Fox News choir is giving him a standing ovation.

Ti's the ratings season.

7 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 9:44:25am

re: #6 researchok

Ailes knew exactly what he was saying and the reaction he would get. The substantial Fox News choir is giving him a standing ovation.

Ti's the ratings season.

I'm not so sure about that anymore. Of course we'll never really know what's really going on at Fox, nobody is really going to give honest answers but it's stating to look like the lunatics have taken over the asylum. I don't think any of them are rational and they aren't even in control of their own actions.

8 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 9:45:37am

Gee, anyone still want to argue that FoxNews in a "fair and balanced" network?
Yeah, didn't think so.
Ailes tapped the wrong card to play.

9 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 9:45:37am

I learned yesterday how partisan NPR is. They were obviously pursuing their partisan political agenda when they fired that liberal analyst. There is no other explanation that makes more sense.

10 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 9:50:10am

re: #7 Killgore Trout

I'm not so sure about that anymore. Of course we'll never really know what's really going on at Fox, nobody is really going to give honest answers but it's stating to look like the lunatics have taken over the asylum. I don't think any of them are rational and they aren't even in control of their own actions.

On it's own, I'd agree, but business is business. Media and PR are multi billion dollar industries with tactics are well established and defined.

They may be lunatics over there, but they are damned smart lunatics- and their earnings figures prove that.

11 lostlakehiker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 9:52:07am

I don't see this as insanity, not in the medical sense. I certainly would not accept an insanity plea at trial if Mr. Ailes were in trouble with the law, and this was the evidence on which the defense mounted a "not guilty by reason of insanity" defense.

People will say wacky things, things that don't make much sense, for reasons other than that they themselves really believe them. This phenomenon goes by the popular phrase "liar".

12 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 9:54:09am

I wish people would stop throwing "Nazi" around for everything they disagree with. It must be incredibly upsetting for Holocaust survivors to see it constantly bandied about for trivial things as using it that way eventually inures the general public to the very real horror the word represents.

Maybe that's the point of doing it. Chilling thought.

Gotta get back to work...

13 jaunte  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 9:54:20am
NPR wasn't Ailes' only target in his interview with Kurtz: He called Comedy Central's Jon Stewart "crazy" if "really smart" and said Stewart "openly admits he's sort of an atheist and a socialist."


Coming up next on Fox: Atheists are CommieNazis.

14 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 9:56:28am

re: #13 jaunte

Coming up next on Fox: Atheists are CommieNazis.

OOGA BOOGA!

15 jaunte  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 9:56:57am

That picture of Ailes at the link brings to mind a George Grosz caricature.
[Link: www.actingoutpolitics.com...]

16 Charleston Chew  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 9:59:00am

re: #4 Killgore Trout

I always just assumed there was somebody there who's still rational and is manipulating the crazies. It's starting to look like they're all crazy.

I think it's a mistake to think Ailes is crazy. He's not. He's evil. An insane person believes themselves to be moral. Ailes is deliberately lying. He knows it's immoral and he's fine with that.

17 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:01:08am

encore...
"Obama Praises Black Home Stealer"

[Link: blogs.ajc.com...]

18 Charleston Chew  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:02:56am

re: #16 Charleston Chew

To be more specific, I don't think there's anyone at Fox that actually believes their own bs. They only believe in 2 things: money, and money. It's their audience that's insane.

19 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:04:05am

"Nazis" vs. "Mentally Ill"

Yeah- politics is getting more polarized. Where are the adults these days?

20 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:04:39am

re: #18 Charleston Chew

To be more specific, I don't think there's anyone at Fox that actually believes their own bs. They only believe in 2 things: money, and money. It's their audience that's insane.

I think that's the final line for any media outlet... and Fox dies it better than most.

21 iossarian  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:05:33am

re: #20 Walter L. Newton

I think that's the final line for any media outlet... and Fox dies it better than most.

So you're saying that the "final line" for NPR is money? Interesting.

22 Kragar  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:07:44am

I was unaware that running a radio station was the same as orchestrating the systematic murder of several million people in the name of racial purity and starting a world war.

23 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:08:06am

re: #21 iossarian

So you're saying that the "final line" for NPR is money? Interesting.

...well...

In a "Money in the form of your generous pledge so we can provide more quality educational and arts programming" kind of way. At least a week every six months. /

24 What, me worry?  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:08:18am

re: #18 Charleston Chew

To be more specific, I don't think there's anyone at Fox that actually believes their own bs. They only believe in 2 things: money, and money. It's their audience that's insane.

I have no idea whether they believe it or not. I'm sure they do, or at least a portion of it. You can't keep going on like they do for decades without actually buying what they're selling.

I do agree that they're ratings whores (much moreso than others) and this Nazi statement by the Chairman (high up) is a dog whistle.

25 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:08:26am

re: #21 iossarian

So you're saying that the "final line" for NPR is money? Interesting.

What do they operate on... hot air (well, maybe I answered my own question). Yes... sorry... most business, profit or non-profit, intend to make as much money as possible.

26 chordata  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:08:46am

I think Ailes is jealous of the real Nazi's because they invented propaganda first though he has certainly mastered the form.

27 What, me worry?  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:09:53am

re: #25 Walter L. Newton

What do they operate on... hot air (well, maybe I answered my own question). Yes... sorry... most business, profit or non-profit, intend to make as much money as possible.

Well yea, but screaming Nazi isn't usually the way people make money. They have nothing else of value?

(And it looks like I may have answered my own question!)

28 Firstinla  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:11:14am

Perhaps if Ailes would listen to NPR he would get some idea of what "fair and balanced" actually means. All he is doing is feeding the little fishies in his pond.

29 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:12:56am

Ailes wasn't the first to go down this road. I do wish there was the same outrage.

Ted Turner compares Fox News to Nazis

30 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:13:17am

re: #28 Firstinla

Perhaps if Ailes would listen to NPR he would get some idea of what "fair and balanced" actually means. All he is doing is feeding the little fishies in his pond.

You're kidding, right?

31 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:13:34am

re: #27 marjoriemoon

Well yea, but screaming Nazi isn't usually the way people make money. They have nothing else of value?

(And it looks like I may have answered my own question!)

Screaming anything that sells IS THE WAY... or haven't you noticed? The point is... money makes the media go round... period. Right, left.. mediocre media... money greases the wheels.

32 Firstinla  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:13:58am

Yes, I was kidding. Forgot the sarc tag.

33 Charleston Chew  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:15:13am

re: #20 Walter L. Newton

I think that's the final line for any media outlet... and Fox dies it better than most.

My impression is that there's two types of people in the news business or any other business -- those who love doing the work and doing it well, and those who love getting paid. Call them "work"-people and "money"-people.

Fox has made it clear that they are the home of people who want money and have no other interests. If you're willing to say what ever lies Fox tells you to say, they'll make sure you get financial compensation.

Other news organizations contain a mix of of both work and money people. And NPR I would guess probably contains the highest percentage of work people because their budgets are tight and they spend more airtime delving into stories.

So don't try to peddle that "everyone's the same" bullshit around me.

34 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:15:15am

re: #29 researchok

Ailes wasn't the first to go down this road. I do wish there was the same outrage.

Ted Turner compares Fox News to Nazis

This is not the same. You're using the Magical Balance Fairy argument.

Turner is not out to make money... you know that.

35 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:15:55am

re: #33 Charleston Chew

My impression is that there's two types of people in the news business or any other business -- those who love doing the work and doing it well, and those who love getting paid. Call them "work"-people and "money"-people.

Fox has made it clear that they are the home of people who want money and have no other interests. If you're willing to say what ever lies Fox tells you to say, they'll make sure you get financial compensation.

Other news organizations contain a mix of of both work and money people. And NPR I would guess probably contains the highest percentage of work people because their budgets are tight and they spend more airtime delving into stories.

So don't try to peddle that "everyone's the same" bullshit around me.

Blinders?

36 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:16:13am

re: #12 CuriousLurker



Maybe that's the point of doing it. Chilling thought.

Bolded for truth.

Because that is a very big part of it. Right along the Big Lie that the Nazi's were leftists. LVQ has had some very important posts about this very topic.

37 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:16:24am

re: #34 Walter L. Newton

This is not the same. You're using the Magical Balance Fairy argument.

Turner is not out to make money... you know that.

No, I am not.

Turners' remarks were even more egregious, given they were made 5 years ago- before Ailes stupidity.

38 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:16:54am

re: #29 researchok

He didn't actually make the same comparison, if you read that. It was crass and stupid of him, but he didn't compare Fox News to Nazis. He said popularity doesn't really mean much, given that Hitler was popular. It was a stupid, "You know how else was popular?" moment.

Also, that's from 2005. I remember there being some outrage at the time he made that comment, so what do you mean by saying you wish there was the same outrage?

39 Charleston Chew  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:17:55am

re: #24 marjoriemoon

I have no idea whether they believe it or not. I'm sure they do, or at least a portion of it. You can't keep going on like they do for decades without actually buying what they're selling.

I disagree. A magician can do 8 shows a week in Vegas and never actual believe they're magic.

40 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:18:53am

re: #31 Walter L. Newton

Walter, your point is pretty much a truism. That companies are out to make money is rather obvious; that there's a difference between a company that sells cigarettes and one that sells hammers is also pretty obvious.

Most of the media these days isn't worth much; but Fox News actively promotes a whole host of nasty shit. Simply saying that they're all out to make money is missing the point by a country mile.

41 Charleston Chew  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:20:32am

re: #35 Walter L. Newton

Blinders?

Add more words, please.

42 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:20:58am

re: #38 Obdicut

He didn't actually make the same comparison, if you read that. It was crass and stupid of him, but he didn't compare Fox News to Nazis. He said popularity doesn't really mean much, given that Hitler was popular. It was a stupid, "You know how else was popular?" moment.

Also, that's from 2005. I remember there being some outrage at the time he made that comment, so what do you mean by saying you wish there was the same outrage?

Yes, I do wish there were the same level of outrage. Perhaps if there were, Ailes would be embarrassed enough not to make an ass out of himself.

My resignation and outrage stem from the reality that as DaddyG noted, there are fewer and fewer adults engaged in discourse.

In the end though and as it always is, it will be the voters that will have the final say. The fringe elements on both sides will be marginalized.

43 Kronocide  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:21:45am

re: #40 Obdicut


Most of the media these days isn't worth much; but Fox News actively promotes a whole host of nasty shit. Simply saying that they're all out to make money is missing the point by a country mile.

It's beyond that. The whole point of objectivity is lost and there is a virtue being made of it. As if 'we need to tell the truth against these other biased news sources' to justify our bias.

That, and Murdoch is excellent toeing the conservative bent but also being the most titillating. It's all entertainment.

44 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:21:59am

re: #41 Charleston Chew

Add more words, please.

I was trying to keep it simple.

45 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:22:11am

re: #33 Charleston Chew


So don't try to peddle that "everyone's the same" bullshit around me.

Everyone is different but no one is perfectly innocent. The idea of a "neutral" media is inherently flawed. The media outlets will always have a perspective and being human organizations those perspectives will be idologically driven.

Does NPR compare to the Nazi propaganda machine. No. But neither does Fox, CNN, MSNBC or any other American media outlet. None of them are controlled by the Government (or shadow governments).

Some Dufus in Fox News leadership (or Ted Turner )Godwining himself isn't news. Referring to idiotic statements as mental illness isn't as good a response as setting the volume on ignore. It's also insulting to those who suffer from real mental illnesses.

46 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:23:38am

re: #43 BigPapa

It's beyond that. The whole point of objectivity is lost and there is a virtue being made of it. As if 'we need to tell the truth against these other biased news sources' to justify our bias.

That, and Murdoch is excellent toeing the conservative bent but also being the most titillating. It's all entertainment.

Like I said yesterday...

Fox News... keeping the left entertained for 20 years, while the adults take care of business.

47 elizajane  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:24:08am

re: #18 Charleston Chew

To be more specific, I don't think there's anyone at Fox that actually believes their own bs. They only believe in 2 things: money, and money. It's their audience that's insane.

Somebody on the lefty Right, maybe David Frum or his website, did a piece on this some months ago, and there were many comments as well. The conclusion, which I agree with, was that Limbaugh probably believed what he said (you could not be so consistent in your hatefulness without some inner, basic conviction) whereas Beck would go wherever the winds of money blew him. There was more dispute about Ann Coulter.

48 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:25:18am

re: #42 researchok

Yes, I do wish there were the same level of outrage. Perhaps if there were, Ailes would be embarrassed enough not to make an ass out of himself.

I'm sorry, but that's a rather strange position. First of all, Turner didn't compare Fox News to Nazis. Turner stupidly, and crassly, said that popularity doesn't mean much given that Hitler was also popular. It's nowhere near the direct comparison that Aisles made.

Further, to say that the reason why Aisles isn't embarrassed to do this is because there wasn't enough outrage about Turner's statement-- I mean, that's just weird. There have been huge numbers of comparisons of people to Hitler and the Nazis since then; Bush, Obama, etc. Why on earth was Turner's moment the moment where it could have all been stopped?

In the end though and as it always is, it will be the voters that will have the final say. The fringe elements on both sides will be marginalized.

I have no idea what relevance this has to anything. The problem isn't the fringe elements of the GOP, it's the mainstream of the GOP politicians.

49 What, me worry?  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:25:24am

re: #39 Charleston Chew

I disagree. A magician can do 8 shows a week in Vegas and never actual believe they're magic.

And the audience as well. You go to see the spectacle, but you know that Copperfield didn't actually make the Statute of Liberty vanish.

I don't know if the Fox anchors believe what they say. More importantly, though, I think their audience does. When you interview the teabaggers, they're parroting all kinds of Beck's and Limbaugh's nonsense.

50 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:25:49am

re: #34 Walter L. Newton

This is not the same. You're using the Magical Balance Fairy argument.

Turner is not out to make money... you know that.


Williams Street in Atlanta is a veritable monument to charitable activities. I hear Hosea Williams is serving Thanksgiving dinner in the TBS boardroom this year. /

51 What, me worry?  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:25:58am

re: #44 Walter L. Newton

I was trying to keep it simple.

NPR and Fox News are exactly the same. Is that what you're saying? Because you would be wrong.

52 Charleston Chew  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:26:07am

re: #45 DaddyG

I wasn't referring to "biased vs unbiased". I'm referring to fake reporting vs real reporting. Fox news isn't biased. It's fake. Reporting information inadvertently colored by one's own world view I don't mind. I expect it as a basic part of human nature. Deliberately spreading lies in the disguise of "reporting" -- that I hate.

53 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:26:09am

re: #29 researchok

Ailes wasn't the first to go down this road. I do wish there was the same outrage.

Ted Turner compares Fox News to Nazis

There's a very large difference between the two cases. Sure, Ted Turner is a loon. But CNN does not (and never did) have a roster of shows that ALL promote the line that the Obama administration is like Nazi Germany.

Turner's opinion is just as crazy as Ailes', yes -- but it isn't reflected in actual CNN coverage.

Fox News, on the other hand, very obviously is influenced and directed by Ailes's attitude. And he's far from alone there. I know from personal experience that many of their top execs are just as far to the right as Ailes.

54 Merryweather  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:26:57am

At some point in the future, children will grow up thinking a Nazi is someone who doesn't agree with them.

Also - the 'left wing of Nazism'? I guess that makes Fox News the right wing of communism.

55 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:27:06am

re: #36 wlewisiii

Bolded for truth.

Because that is a very big part of it. Right along the Big Lie that the Nazi's were leftists. LVQ has had some very important posts about this very topic.

Ah, so historical revisionism goes along with the desensitization. I'm (sadly) not surprised, but I am very much disturbed. I must have missed LVQ's posts on that, so I'll have to go and search for them later. Thanks for the heads-up.

56 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:29:42am

Must put an end to this: we must institute a Federal Ministry of Fairness and Balance.

They will issue daily Talking Points, assign topics to be covered and the proportional coverage time to be allotted to each, as well as approving all interview questions (and answers) in advance.

Problem solved

57 Kronocide  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:31:27am

re: #32 Firstinla

Yes, I was kidding. Forgot the sarc tag.

Are you comparing Fox and NPR?

58 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:32:06am

OT - (but sort of "media" related... and certainly an interest to blogs and internet users)...

Senate panel approves domain name seizure bill

A controversial proposal allowing the government to pull the plug on Web sites accused of aiding piracy is closer to becoming a federal law.

After a flurry of last-minute lobbying from representatives of content providers including the Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA) and the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA), a Senate committee approved the measure today by a unanimous vote.

[Link: news.cnet.com...]

See... there can be bipartisan cooperation in government.

59 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:33:16am

re: #52 Charleston Chew

I wasn't referring to "biased vs unbiased". I'm referring to fake reporting vs real reporting. Fox news isn't biased. It's fake. Reporting information inadvertently colored by one's own world view I don't mind. I expect it as a basic part of human nature. Deliberately spreading lies in the disguise of "reporting" -- that I hate.


The Daily Show is Fake but contains some real news, The Onion is Fake, Fox News (not the talk shows but the news desk) is news that contains bias and some errors, CNBC is biased but it is news.

The most famous "fake" reports I've heard from real news outlets are the exploding gas tanks and the TANG memo.

Fake vs. Biased isn't that nuanced a concept that it should be confused.

60 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:34:14am

re: #57 BigPapa

Are you comparing Fox and NPR?

Obviously - because sappy shows and earnest book reviews of non-biblical tomes is the exact version of what fox does, but on the communist left.....................

61 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:34:29am

re: #59 DaddyG

Fake vs. Biased isn't that nuanced a concept that it should be confused.

Nuance is dead.

62 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:35:06am

re: #61 ralphieboy

Nuance is dead.

Nostalgia is a thing of the past.

63 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:35:22am

re: #61 ralphieboy

Nuance is dead.

Nah, it's just on sabbatical. A very, very long sabbatical.

64 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:35:58am

re: #60 wozzablog

Obviously - because sappy shows and earnest book reviews of non-biblical tomes is the exact version of what fox does, but on the communist left...

“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.” Arthur Schopenhauer (1788 - 1860)

65 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:36:05am

re: #48 Obdicut

I'm sorry, but that's a rather strange position. First of all, Turner didn't compare Fox News to Nazis. Turner stupidly, and crassly, said that popularity doesn't mean much given that Hitler was also popular. It's nowhere near the direct comparison that Aisles made.

Further, to say that the reason why Aisles isn't embarrassed to do this is because there wasn't enough outrage about Turner's statement-- I mean, that's just weird. There have been huge numbers of comparisons of people to Hitler and the Nazis since then; Bush, Obama, etc. Why on earth was Turner's moment the moment where it could have all been stopped?

I have no idea what relevance this has to anything. The problem isn't the fringe elements of the GOP, it's the mainstream of the GOP politicians.

Turner repeatedly made a comparison to FOX News and the Nazi era propaganda machine. That was the whole point of his remarks.

As for Ailes, the lack of outrage on these kind of stupid remarks are exactly why they are made. Remember the 'John Wilkes Booth, where are you when we need you?' asinine and stupid editorial pining for the assassination of George Bush? Remember the editorial that compared Sarah Palin to a porn star? The outrage was loud and unequivocal (notwithstanding some who actually defended the remarks) and those kind of ideas aren't repeated.

I am not defending these remarks of Ailes or FOX News personalities or positions that are overstated. I never have, nor will I.

What I am saying is that intellectual consistency is a virtue that cannot be overstated. Media needs to heal itself.

66 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:37:32am

re: #63 MrSilverDragon

Nah, it's just on sabbatical. A very, very long sabbatical.

In any case, the modern media have demonstrated that all but the most direct and simple satements can be taken out of context and twisted about.

We saw both Democratic and Republican candidates doing it in the last elections, and will continue to do so as long as there is a marekt for this sort of shouting demagoguery.

67 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:38:12am

re: #53 Charles

There's a very large difference between the two cases. Sure, Ted Turner is a loon. But CNN does not (and never did) have a roster of shows that ALL promote the line that the Obama administration is like Nazi Germany.

Turner's opinion is just as crazy as Ailes', yes -- but it doesn't reflect actual CNN coverage.

Fox News, on the other hand, very obviously is influenced and directed by Ailes's attitude. And he's far from alone there. I know from personal experience that many of their top execs are just as far to the right as Ailes.

I couldn't agree more.

Ailes and Murdoch have found the goose that laid the golden egg. They are going to play it out for all it is worth. It is unfortunate that the current climate of easy hysteria makes it easy for them to do just that.

68 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:39:32am

re: #66 ralphieboy

In any case, the modern media have demonstrated that all but the most direct and simple satements can be taken out of context and twisted about.

We saw both Democratic and Republican candidates doing it in the last elections, and will continue to do so as long as there is a marekt for this sort of shouting demagoguery.

in time, you will learn to hate them all, if you have an honest bone in your body....Fox, NPR, all of them, I hate the MSM

69 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:39:46am

re: #53 Charles

I know from personal experience that many of their top execs are just as far to the right as Ailes.

Does right wing bias (even extreme right wing bias) equate to mental illness?

The issue I'm having with this discussion is the use of hyperbole to answer hyperbole. It just fuels the partisan flames and causes all parties to become more entrenched.

To borrow a phrase from Researchok: Anti-Idolatry begs for intellectual consistency.

70 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:39:55am

re: #66 ralphieboy

In any case, the modern media have demonstrated that all but the most direct and simple satements can be taken out of context and twisted about.

We saw both Democratic and Republican candidates doing it in the last elections, and will continue to do so as long as there is a marekt for this sort of shouting demagoguery.

I want all politicians and journalists to wear electric underwear where they get 110v across their personals whenever they engage in outright lies. Of course Fox News would then look like Dick Clark's American Dance Party much of the time, but twould be quite entertaining.

71 Charleston Chew  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:40:21am

re: #59 DaddyG

The Daily Show is Fake but contains some real news, The Onion is Fake, Fox News (not the talk shows but the news desk) is news that contains bias and some errors, CNBC is biased but it is news.

The most famous "fake" reports I've heard from real news outlets are the exploding gas tanks and the TANG memo.

Fake vs. Biased isn't that nuanced a concept that it should be confused.

Now here's where it gets ironic -- the Daily Show isn't fake news. Why? Because they little call themselves "fake news". I don't know if the Onion has ever been that explicit but I assume they would be horrified if people thought they were real.

It's the job of Fox News to pass their fake news off as real.

In summation, fake news isn't fake if they tell you it's fake. Fake news is only fake when they tell you it's real.

72 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:40:41am

re: #65 researchok

Turner repeatedly made a comparison to FOX News and the Nazi era propaganda machine. That was the whole point of his remarks.

Charles said it better than I.


What I am saying is that intellectual consistency is a virtue that cannot be overstated. Media needs to heal itself.

Sure. But the way that gets healed is through a display of outrage. So it's kind of weird that you respond to people being outraged about this comparison by saying that you wish they'd been outraged before. It's good that people are outraged at the comparison, right? It's good that people are paying attention that the executives at Fox are so off the rails?

73 elizajane  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:40:54am

re: #67 researchok

I couldn't agree more.

Ailes and Murdoch have found the goose that laid the golden egg. They are going to play it out for all it is worth. It is unfortunate that the current climate of easy hysteria makes it easy for them to do just that.

The "climate of easy hysteria" isn't something they joyously happened upon, it's something they created.

74 nines09  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:40:58am

If Roger Ailes was on fire, I would not piss on him to put him out. Does that make me a Nazi?

75 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:41:15am

re: #70 PT Barnum

76 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:41:33am

re: #61 ralphieboy

Nuance is dead.

Naaaah, it's pining for the Fjords.......

77 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:42:00am

re: #73 elizajane

The "climate of easy hysteria" isn't something they joyously happened upon, it's something they created.

Yeah. That's the big problem I'm having here. Fox News didn't just wander onto the scene of anti-science attitudes, hysteria, fearmongering, etc. They've carefully cultivated it, fed it, and encouraged it. They're not just exploiting it. They're creating it.

78 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:42:15am

re: #74 nines09

If Roger Ailes was on fire, I would not piss on him to put him out. Does that make me a Nazi?

no, it makes you a heartless asshole tho...talk about hyperbole

79 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:42:21am

re: #69 DaddyG

Does right wing bias (even extreme right wing bias) equate to mental illness?

The issue I'm having with this discussion is the use of hyperbole to answer hyperbole. It just fuels the partisan flames and causes all parties to become more entrenched.

To borrow a phrase from Researchok: Anti-Idolatry begs for intellectual consistency.

Well said and then some.

Disagree with a conservative and you are a communist.

Disagree with a liberal and you are a Nazi.

All this before AM coffee

80 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:42:38am

re: #76 wozzablog

Naaah, it's pining for the Fjords...

LOL!!! BTW, thank you for being such a great bunch of people to hang out with. I just crossed the 5000 post mark and it's all due to the scintillating conversation here, that and the pun threads.

81 recusancy  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:42:59am

re: #74 nines09

If Roger Ailes was on fire, I would not piss on him to put him out. Does that make me a Nazi?

If he can't put the fire out himself how will he ever learn.

82 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:43:15am

re: #79 researchok

Disagree with a liberal and you are a Nazi.

Um. So Ailes is a liberal now?

83 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:43:18am

re: #79 researchok

Well said and then some.

Disagree with a conservative and you are a communist.

Disagree with a liberal and you are a Nazi.

All this before AM coffee

Disagree with an LGFer and you're just a dumbshit.

84 Charleston Chew  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:43:23am

re: #68 albusteve

in time, you will learn to hate them all, if you have an honest bone in your body...Fox, NPR, all of them, I hate the MSM

I'm curious about what you hate about NPR. I have been occasionally annoyed and sometimes bored, but never actually experienced hate for them.

85 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:43:51am

re: #69 DaddyG

Does right wing bias (even extreme right wing bias) equate to mental illness?

The issue I'm having with this discussion is the use of hyperbole to answer hyperbole. It just fuels the partisan flames and causes all parties to become more entrenched.

To borrow a phrase from Researchok: Anti-Idolatry begs for intellectual consistency.

Yes, it's mental illness to refer to NPR execs as 'Nazis.'

86 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:44:03am

re: #84 Charleston Chew

I'm curious about what you hate about NPR. I have been occasionally annoyed and sometimes bored, but never actually experienced hate for them.

They don't hate Obama...that's enough for Steve.

87 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:44:05am

re: #71 Charleston Chew

Now here's where it gets ironic -- the Daily Show isn't fake news. Why? Because they little call themselves "fake news". I don't know if the Onion has ever been that explicit but I assume they would be horrified if people thought they were real.

It's the job of Fox News to pass their fake news off as real.

In summation, fake news isn't fake if they tell you it's fake. Fake news is only fake when they tell you it's real.

...then we get into all of the permutations of when is a news network news (Brit Hume), when is it editorial (Greta Van Sustern) and when is it entertainment (Glenn Beck)?

However, not liking the political bias of a network or its shows does not invalidate its status as a news network. CNN, CNBC, FOX, etc. all get to call themselves news networks and buyer beware. The same goes for NPR being a public radio station yet making money from Sesame Street merchandise. Just because they have a commercial income stream doesn't invalidate their outstanding children's programming.

88 Charleston Chew  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:44:20am

re: #71 Charleston Chew

little

89 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:44:22am

re: #73 elizajane

The "climate of easy hysteria" isn't something they joyously happened upon, it's something they created.

"They"? Who is "they"?

FOX is exploiting the hysteria- they certainly didn't create it.

Media hysteria is a cultural phenomena- not a political phenomena.

90 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:44:27am

re: #81 recusancy

If he can't put the fire out himself how will he ever learn.

maybe he hadn't paid the protection fee to the perspective pisser...........

91 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:45:11am

The problem is that the right wing has decided that anyone that won't consent to being oppressed by the right wing is actually oppressing the right wing.

92 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:45:17am

Can someone please point me to a time (in recent history) where a Nazi/Hitler comparison helped sway the other side?

In any way?

I personally feel that the moment that the comparison exits one's lips, that person is automatically given a "time out".

93 elizajane  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:46:04am

re: #84 Charleston Chew

I'm curious about what you hate about NPR. I have been occasionally annoyed and sometimes bored, but never actually experienced hate for them.

Thank you, I have wondered that myself.

I find it quite hard to believe that all those folks who voted to defund NPR because it was a Big Communist Agitation Machine have ever listened to it, ever once, whereas I've listened to Rush Limbaugh until I was made physically ill.

94 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:46:07am

re: #86 PT Barnum

They don't hate Obama...that's enough for Steve.

where have I ever stated I hate BO, or wish him to fail, or that he deserves some ill will?....you can't, but don't let that stop you irrational froth

95 Kronocide  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:46:08am

re: #68 albusteve

in time, you will learn to hate them all, if you have an honest bone in your body...Fox, NPR, all of them, I hate the MSM

Hate them all? As if they're all comparable?

Sorry, that doesn't work for me. Not for one second do I think Source Fox is biased and Source B is not. Nor do I fret over having an absolutely unbiased sourced. However, Fox takes the cake for outright bias, where the rest of the MS outlets have many varying lesser degrees of bias, and even then it comes mostly from the personalities themselves.

NPR as a comparison to Fox is absurd. I listen/watch/listen to both. It sounds like there's some kind of moral equivalence going on regarding Fox and other outlets.

If you want a good left yang to the yin of Fox the best comparison would be DemocracyNow! with Amy Goodman.

96 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:46:17am

re: #82 Obdicut

Um. So Ailes is a liberal now?

Isn't that in effect what NPR told Williams?

97 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:46:21am

re: #85 Charles

Yes, it's mental illness to refer to NPR execs as 'Nazis.'

I'll have to look that one up on the APA guidebook. I did not know that.

98 theheat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:46:32am

For all these fat old white nostalgic shitstains that pine for the days when a handshake was your word and women stayed home and wore aprons, they sure are disconnected from another one of those customs: honesty. (You know, not making shit up.)

No, what they really represent is that other age-old custom: making money. But they lack the intellectual honesty to admit they will say and do anything that boosts their ratings and rakes in cash.

Nothing is too outrageous. Nothing is too fake. Nobody has a personal governor on them. Nobody is concerned what they say or do might hurt someone else because its pure bullshit. This is Fox, and the media at large. 1.) Make shit up, 2.) count your money. It's beautiful in its simplicity.

99 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:46:38am

re: #74 nines09

If Roger Ailes was on fire, I would not piss on him to put him out. Does that make me a Nazi?


No, Nazis go about putting people into ovens.

100 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:47:38am

re: #89 researchok

"They"? Who is "they"?

FOX is exploiting the hysteria- they certainly didn't create it.

Media hysteria is a cultural phenomena- not a political phenomena.

But Fox, or, rather, NewsCorp really does do a ton to create the hysteria.

101 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:47:45am

re: #85 Charles

Yes, it's mental illness to refer to NPR execs as 'Nazis.'

I don't think it's mental illness.

It is unequivocally stupid and crude.

102 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:48:00am

re: #96 researchok

Isn't that in effect what NPR told Williams?

No, it's not.

103 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:48:17am

re: #99 ralphieboy

No, Nazis go about putting people into ovens.

I thought about making a rendering joke considering Ailes' physique but decided it was going too far.

104 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:48:19am

re: #100 Obdicut

But Fox, or, rather, NewsCorp really does do a ton to create the hysteria.

Yeah, not like Olbermann or Mr Leg Tingle.
/

105 Charleston Chew  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:48:23am

re: #87 DaddyG

I doubt NPR gets any Sesame Street merchandise money, but what do I know.

106 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:48:41am

re: #102 Obdicut

No, it's not.

Why not?

107 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:49:00am

re: #92 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I thought you had a 16 hour drive followed by a 29 hour work day!

What are you still doing here!?!?!

108 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:49:47am

re: #98 theheat

For all these fat old white nostalgic shitstains that pine for the days when a handshake was your word and women stayed home and wore aprons, they sure are disconnected from another one of those customs: honesty. (You know, not making shit up.)

No, what they really represent is that other age-old custom: making money. But they lack the intellectual honesty to admit they will say and do anything that boosts their ratings and rakes in cash.

Nothing is too outrageous. Nothing is too fake. Nobody has a personal governor on them. Nobody is concerned what they say or do might hurt someone else because its pure bullshit. This is Fox, and the media at large. 1.) Make shit up, 2.) count your money. It's beautiful in its simplicity.

They're too busy lining up to run for the GOP presidential nomination in '12.

109 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:49:56am

re: #105 Charleston Chew

I doubt NPR gets any Sesame Street merchandise money, but what do I know.

Unlike many Fox viewers who swore they'd stop watching NPR after the Williams incident.

110 What, me worry?  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:49:57am

re: #89 researchok

"They"? Who is "they"?

FOX is exploiting the hysteria- they certainly didn't create it.

Media hysteria is a cultural phenomena- not a political phenomena.

Most of the media is center left, yes? I mean there's all the barking about the liberal media, but whether it be TV or print news, CNN, CBS, ABC, NYT, are center left.

Who is the conservative media? Fox News. Who else? Newsmax, Newscorp, WND? Hardly mainstream.

Where is most of the hyperbole coming from? Not from the liberals, even though they far outnumber conservative news.

111 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:50:19am

re: #104 researchok

I'm sorry, but if you can't see that Fox really does intentionally further hysteria-- as they are doing with their 9/11 trutherism right now-- I have no idea what to say.

112 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:50:24am

re: #101 researchok

Um, OK. It's not literally mental illness.

It is crazy, illogical, nonsensical, extreme, stupid, obviously false, and delusional.

Let's say it shows many of the same signs as mental illness.

113 Lidane  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:50:56am

re: #91 PT Barnum

The problem is that the right wing has decided that anyone that won't consent to being oppressed by the right wing is actually oppressing the right wing.

YES. THIS. It's like the nonsensical "War on Christmas" or "Christian oppression" or nonexistent threats of "creeping Sharia law" that the far right lunatics scream about.

The problem in those cases isn't someone telling you to have a happy holiday instead of a Merry Christmas, or wanting equality for gays, or building a mosque. The problem is that the people wanting those things dare to have a different point of view from the lunatic right, and don't want to live under their rules, so the familiar cries of oppression and fascism start getting thrown around.

114 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:51:19am

re: #107 sattv4u2

Oh... the first appointment cancelled after I had driven an hour. Now I am sitting in a hotel lobby waiting on three o'clock for my next appointment.

Wingate Inns have nice lobbies.

115 Charleston Chew  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:51:28am

re: #89 researchok

"They"? Who is "they"?

FOX is exploiting the hysteria- they certainly didn't create it.

Media hysteria is a cultural phenomena- not a political phenomena.

They idea that "Cultural Phenomena" just sort of happens is no more true that spontaneous combustion. Everything is made by someone and Fox News has worked hard for well over a decade to create this hysteria.

116 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:51:48am

34 WARSHIPS!
Carry on

117 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:51:49am

re: #112 Charles

Um, OK. It's not literally mental illness.

It is crazy, illogical, nonsensical, extreme, stupid, obviously false, and delusional.

Let's say it shows many of the same signs as mental illness.

Perhaps we need a Turing machine for political discourse. If you can't tell the difference between what's on Fox from the rantings of your average schitzophrenic on the crosstown bus, then it's mental illness.

118 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:52:09am

re: #105 Charleston Chew

I doubt NPR gets any Sesame Street merchandise money, but what do I know.


I hope they do. They still own the intellectual property. Children's Television Workshop actually makes the $, which is a good thing for them and the public television stations who get to use their programming.

I am a huge fan of public broadcasting and I really enjoy most of their programming. Their editorial stance is slightly left of center but that never bothered me. They were stupid to turn Juan Williams into an employment issue but in the balance they have done a great job IMO.

119 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:52:44am

My first thought on reading the thread title was, "He'd know."

120 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:53:03am

re: #112 Charles

Um, OK. It's not literally mental illness.

It is crazy, illogical, nonsensical, extreme, stupid, obviously false, and delusional.

Let's say it shows many of the same signs as mental illness.

Hahahaha! Fair enough!

121 Charleston Chew  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:53:30am

re: #90 wozzablog

maybe he hadn't paid the protection fee to the perspective pisser...

If anyone wants to pay me $75 a year, I will promise that, if they're ever on fire, and I'm nearby, I will piss on them.

122 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:53:47am

re: #114 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh... the first appointment cancelled after I had driven an hour. Now I am sitting in a hotel lobby waiting on three o'clock for my next appointment.

Wingate Inns have nice lobbies.

I hated when that happened to me,, didn't have the decency to call well in advance before I arranged a whole day around the 1st appt. and started the drive

123 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:54:16am

re: #121 Charleston Chew

If anyone wants to pay me $75 a year, I will promise that, if they're ever on fire, and I'm nearby, I will piss on them.

Otherwise, you'll just piss on yourself?
//

124 Kronocide  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:54:51am

re: #91 PT Barnum

The problem is that the right wing has decided that anyone that won't consent to being oppressed by the right wing is actually oppressing the right wing.

It seems that nuance is dead and we've reached a binary state of interpretation. If you're not for Sarah Palin you're a communist.

I've been listening to Beck on the radio the last few days when driving. His mannerisms and delivery sound more like a preacher than an objective newsman or talk show host. Soros/Satan/Communists/'They' etc.

125 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:54:54am

re: #122 sattv4u2

I hated when that happened to me,, didn't have the decency to call well in advance before I arranged a whole day around the 1st appt. and started the drive

If you're delivering cable or any other home service it's karma for all the time we have to sit around waiting for the whole day only to have the service guy not show up.

126 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:55:23am

re: #125 PT Barnum

oh snap!

127 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:55:30am

re: #110 marjoriemoon

Most of the media is center left, yes? I mean there's all the barking about the liberal media, but whether it be TV or print news, CNN, CBS, ABC, NYT, are center left.

Who is the conservative media? Fox News. Who else? Newsmax, Newscorp, WND? Hardly mainstream.

Where is most of the hyperbole coming from? Not from the liberals, even though they far outnumber conservative news.

Yes and no. It is in the subtitles.

There was plenty of Bush bashing over Guantanamo and the Patriot Act. Virtually nothing has changed- and if anything, some things have been augmented and added on to. Now, there is barely a whisper.

No big noise anymore.

I do agree critics of the party out of power are more apt to be noisy. The results of recent elections proved that point.

It's the entire media environment that I object to.

128 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:55:44am

re: #123 sattv4u2

Otherwise, you'll just piss on yourself?
//

I, myself, would prefer to be pissed off than pissed on.

129 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:55:57am

re: #117 PT Barnum

(Clutching a briefcase)
"I must get this cheese to Washington!"
-Average schitzophrenic on the crosstown bus

130 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:56:44am

re: #129 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

(Clutching a briefcase)
"I must get this cheese to Washington!"
-Average schitzophrenic on the crosstown bus

Cheese is more cultured than most Congressmen..........

131 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:56:47am

re: #117 PT Barnum

Perhaps we need a Turing machine for political discourse. If you can't tell the difference between what's on Fox from the rantings of your average schitzophrenic on the crosstown bus, then it's mental illness.

Trust me on this one. Most of the rantings on the crosstown bus have a liberal bias. At least here in Atlanta. I had more than a few of our local street people come up and shake my hand declaring their pride and joy in having a Black President. (I congratulated them/us on the historic event). Most of the time I have difficulty following their very public musings.

132 Major Tom  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:56:49am

So a question...

If a person (lets say at Fox) is repeating verbatim what Hitler said in a speech, (except instead of Jews he was railing against, lets say progressives,) you can't call him a Nazi because that would be polarizing and misrepresenting the holocaust? I guess what I'm asking is does a person have to commit genocide before you can compare them to the Nazis? ...and along those lines, how would you warn people of the extremism being presented without the comparison? Wouldn't it be dangerous to describe a person like that with more moderate examples? Doesn't that, in effect, contribute to the banality of evil?

133 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:57:12am

re: #129 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

(Clutching a briefcase)
"I must get this cheese to Washington!"
-Average schitzophrenic on the crosstown bus

WHat a friend we have in cheeses.

134 Virginia Plain  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:57:14am

Yep, I'm definitely getting a membership with the local public radio station.

135 Renaissance_Man  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:57:23am

re: #89 researchok

"They"? Who is "they"?

FOX is exploiting the hysteria- they certainly didn't create it.

Media hysteria is a cultural phenomena- not a political phenomena.

FOX absolutely does create it. The Conservative cult media exists to create emotional responses based loosely on factual events, or based on nothing at all. When one of your paid pundits states a wacko, irrational opinion completely divorced from reality, designed specifically to provoke a hysterical response, and your news show two hours later reports that some people have this wacko irrational opinion which your paid pundit just made out of whole cloth, your news show is not merely 'exploiting the hysteria'.

136 Renaissance_Man  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:57:51am

re: #96 researchok

Isn't that in effect what NPR told Williams?

What a bizarre conclusion to draw.

137 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:57:54am

re: #131 DaddyG

Trust me on this one. Most of the rantings on the crosstown bus have a liberal bias. At least here in Atlanta. I had more than a few of our local street people come up and shake my hand declaring their pride and joy in having a Black President. (I congratulated them/us on the historic event). Most of the time I have difficulty following their very public musings.

SHould have added the word paranoid to that.
Paranoid schitzophrenic...

138 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:58:07am

re: #112 Charles

Um, OK. It's not literally mental illness.

It is crazy, illogical, nonsensical, extreme, stupid, obviously false, and delusional.

Let's say it shows many of the same signs as mental illness.

On this we agree.

You know the Geico commercial with Lee Ermey as the therapist who unloads on his jackwagon patient?

That's me when it comes to politics (and a few other things).
/

139 Lidane  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:58:11am

re: #124 BigPapa

It seems that nuance is dead and we've reached a binary state of interpretation.

Speaking of nuance:

Sharron Angle: "Sometimes dictators have good ideas."

140 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:58:16am

re: #125 PT Barnum

If you're delivering cable or any other home service it's karma for all the time we have to sit around waiting for the whole day only to have the service guy not show up.

wrong guy ,,,, (now)

When I did have my (cable) installation sub-contracting company we had a 100% on time record 3 out of 4 years (30-35 installers in and around Boston). I still have the awards from CableVision and the City Of Boston packed in a box somewhere around here

141 Kronocide  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:58:49am

re: #132 Major Tom

So a question...

If a person (lets say at Fox) is repeating verbatim what Hitler said in a speech, (except instead of Jews he was railing against, lets say progressives,) you can't call him a Nazi because that would be polarizing and misrepresenting the holocaust? I guess what I'm asking is does a person have to commit genocide before you can compare them to the Nazis? ...and along those lines, how would you warn people of the extremism being presented without the comparison? Wouldn't it be dangerous to describe a person like that with more moderate examples? Doesn't that, in effect, contribute to the banality of evil?

Well if we're going there, many of the most popular personalities on Fox would be Nazis, by definition. Especially Beck, who must've studied Saul Alinsky....

142 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:59:08am

re: #135 Renaissance_Man

FOX absolutely does create it. The Conservative cult media exists to create emotional responses based loosely on factual events, or based on nothing at all. When one of your paid pundits states a wacko, irrational opinion completely divorced from reality, designed specifically to provoke a hysterical response, and your news show two hours later reports that some people have this wacko irrational opinion which your paid pundit just made out of whole cloth, your news show is not merely 'exploiting the hysteria'.

Yeah, there was no media hysteria when George BusHitler was president.

Nope, not one bit.
/

143 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:59:44am

re: #125 PT Barnum

I am absolutely determined to show up on time for an appointment. And I mean on time. I'll leave early, sit in a my car (or a hotel lobby nearby) and show up at a house at the precise moment that the appointment is set for.

Blows people's minds. So, I see your point.

I am late sometimes, but never without fair warning. And the customer gets a call. I am precisely on time for a very high percentage of my appointments.

144 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 10:59:45am

re: #136 Renaissance_Man

What a bizarre conclusion to draw.

Do you have a point to make?

145 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:00:24am

re: #142 researchok

Yeah, there was no media hysteria when George BusHitler was president.

Nope, not one bit.
/

Prime time anchors on the big three were doing the Bush/Hitler schtick?

Wow, i had honestly forgotten that.............

146 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:00:32am

re: #143 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I am absolutely determined to show up on time for an appointment. And I mean on time. I'll leave early, sit in a my car (or a hotel lobby nearby) and show up at a house at the precise moment that the appointment is set for.

Blows people's minds. So, I see your point.

I am late sometimes, but never without fair warning. And the customer gets a call. I am precisely on time for a very high percentage of my appointments.

What are you doing now?

147 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:01:23am

re: #132 Major Tom

I guess what I'm asking is does a person have to commit genocide before you can compare them to the Nazis? ...and along those lines, how would you warn people of the extremism being presented without the comparison? Wouldn't it be dangerous to describe a person like that with more moderate examples? Doesn't that, in effect, contribute to the banality of evil?

Absolutely. I don't get the people who say no comparisons to the Nazis are possible. Comparing to the WWII period is mostly a bad idea. But proper pre-Holocaust, and even pre-1933 comparisons are just a sign that there are lessons of history and we've learned them.

148 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:01:35am

re: #145 wozzablog

Prime time anchors on the big three were doing the Bush/Hitler schtick?

Wow, i had honestly forgotten that...

Fox NEWS Anchors are calling President Obama "Hitler"?

I did not know that either!

///jus sayin!

149 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:01:37am

re: #145 wozzablog

Prime time anchors on the big three were doing the Bush/Hitler schtick?

Wow, i had honestly forgotten that...

It was in that alternate universe that the wingnuts haven't been decoupled from yet.

150 elizajane  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:02:22am

re: #142 researchok

Yeah, there was no media hysteria when George BusHitler was president.

Nope, not one bit.
/

So reporting negatively on, say, waterboarding, is the same as reporting negatively on, say, death panels?

As a pretty regular NPR listener, and a pretty centrist Democrat, I really can't say that I ever found myself moved to the gut-wrenching hatred and hysteria that listeners to right-wing media clearly feel today.

151 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:02:31am

re: #146 PT Barnum

What are you doing now?

10-1 odds says it has something to do with food!
//

152 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:02:49am

re: #145 wozzablog

Prime time anchors on the big three were doing the Bush/Hitler schtick?

Wow, i had honestly forgotten that...

What prime time anchors of FOX News broadcasts made those kind of offensive remarks?

Or are you referring to entertainment show hosts?

153 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:03:06am

re: #146 PT Barnum

Sitting in a hotel lobby waiting on 2:30 to leave for my 3:00pm appointment 10 minutes away.

I'll spend 20 minutes sitting on the roadside somewhere nearby waiting to pull up to the house at 2:59. I'll ring the bell at 3:00pm.

154 Lidane  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:03:10am

re: #148 sattv4u2

Fox has news anchors? Really?

About the only person on that network that even tries to be a news anchor is Shepard Smith. The rest of them? Not so much.

155 reine.de.tout  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:03:15am

re: #125 PT Barnum

If you're delivering cable or any other home service it's karma for all the time we have to sit around waiting for the whole day only to have the service guy not show up.

They don't do that anymore, here.

They give you a time range - usually a 2 to 4 hour range - and they call before they come, and I've never had to wait more than an hour past the beginning of the range before they arrive. It works out very well.

156 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:03:38am

re: #153 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sitting in a hotel lobby waiting on 2:30 to leave for my 3:00pm appointment 10 minutes away.

I'll spend 20 minutes sitting on the roadside somewhere nearby waiting to pull up to the house at 2:59. I'll ring the bell at 3:00pm.

I meant in general....why are you going to people's houses?

157 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:03:42am

re: #154 Lidane

Fox has news anchors? Really?

About the only person on that network that even tries to be a news anchor is Shepard Smith. The rest of them? Not so much.

And there was an answer to the question ,,, where!?!?!

158 Renaissance_Man  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:03:51am

re: #144 researchok

Do you have a point to make?

Well, the point would be that NPR terminated an employee for a long history of editorial behaviour unbecoming to a journalist and specifically out of line with the journalistic standards of their organisation. It is a bizarre conclusion to draw to equate that to them saying 'you're a Nazi'.

159 Hawaii69  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:04:11am

The only money NPR recieves from the Federal Government comes
in the form of grants.

You may as well tell a college student who receives a Pell Grant that he doesn't have a right to pick his own Major, because he's using "taxpayer money".

Small business grant from the government? It better be a politically unbiased small business! That there is taxpayer money.

160 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:04:16am

re: #156 PT Barnum

I meant in general...why are you going to people's houses?

They have CAKE!!

He really REALLY likes CAKE

161 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:04:16am

re: #156 PT Barnum

Oh... duh...

I am a kitchen designer/salesperson.

162 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:04:24am

re: #45 DaddyG

It's also insulting to those who suffer from real mental illnesses.

I suffer from a mental illness and it is why I use the term when speaking of the wingnuts and moonbats. Their behaviour isn't that much different from what I've observed in my careening around the mental health system. The only difference is people in the mental health system get treated and those in the media get rewarded.

I wish my illness was the type that got rewarded. But no, idiot that I am I realize I'm ill and try hard not to inflict my problems on others. Damn my ethics anyhow. /

163 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:04:26am

re: #155 reine.de.tout

They don't do that anymore, here.

They give you a time range - usually a 2 to 4 hour range - and they call before they come, and I've never had to wait more than an hour past the beginning of the range before they arrive. It works out very well.

I spent an entire day waiting for the phone guy to fix my internet. No call no nothing. I was extremely pissed.

164 Kronocide  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:04:33am

re: #147 Sergey Romanov

Absolutely. I don't get the people who say no comparisons to the Nazis are possible. Comparing to the WWII period is mostly a bad idea. But proper pre-Holocaust, and even pre-1933 comparisons are just a sign that there are lessons of history and we've learned them.

The problem is that the term has been so trivialized that it's meaning has been seriously distilled, warped, changed to something very plain. And that's the danger because when it really happens again there will be not way to clearly make a comparison.

I don't mean to sound too dire or outlandish but the needle has bumped back that direction. With the media structure built of today and the displays of mass ignorance I'm very concerned.

165 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:04:44am

re: #160 sattv4u2

I ask for cake too. If I see cake? I ask for cake.

It's hysterical.

166 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:05:09am

re: #155 reine.de.tout

Heya LADY!!

Long Time/ No See/ hear!~!

You okay !?!?

167 sizzleRI  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:05:33am

re: #142 researchok

Out of curiosity, do you see no difference in scale? Or the fact that it took 4/5 years to get to the level of vitriol aimed and 3 months to reach that level with Obama? I didn't like the George Chimp Nazi Bush shit then, but I can see a dramatic difference in scale.

168 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:05:41am

re: #161 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh... duh...

I am a kitchen designer/salesperson.

Do you charge lots of money to design kitchens? Mrs Barnum wants me to redo ours and I have not idea on what to do.

169 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:05:59am

re: #156 PT Barnum

I meant in general...why are you going to people's houses?

Damn. Shoulda said "cat burglar".

170 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:06:11am

re: #148 sattv4u2

Fox NEWS Anchors are calling President Obama "Hitler"?

I did not know that either!

///jus sayin!

Beck.............
[Link: mediamatters.org...]

171 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:06:16am

re: #168 PT Barnum

Do you charge lots of money to design kitchens? Mrs Barnum wants me to redo ours and I have not idea on what to do.

Got cake?

172 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:06:29am

re: #132 Major Tom

So a question...

If a person (lets say at Fox) is repeating verbatim what Hitler said in a speech, (except instead of Jews he was railing against, lets say progressives,) you can't call him a Nazi because that would be polarizing and misrepresenting the holocaust? I guess what I'm asking is does a person have to commit genocide before you can compare them to the Nazis? ...and along those lines, how would you warn people of the extremism being presented without the comparison? Wouldn't it be dangerous to describe a person like that with more moderate examples? Doesn't that, in effect, contribute to the banality of evil?

That depends on the content of the speech. Encouraging updating our national highway system could echo some policy statements from early Nazi Germany but should not be construed as "Nazi speech". On the other hand suggesting ours is a superior race with the right to rule over others even if worded differently from Nazi propaganda would be considered "Nazi speech".

(now is that really necessary to distinguish?)

173 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:06:34am

re: #150 elizajane

So reporting negatively on, say, waterboarding, is the same as reporting negatively on, say, death panels?

As a pretty regular NPR listener, and a pretty centrist Democrat, I really can't say that I ever found myself moved to the gut-wrenching hatred and hysteria that listeners to right-wing media clearly feel today.

Guess what? When NPR (who have in the past admitted to their own bias) did the Mavi Marmara broadcast, I was shocked at the imbalance (not having a single person representing the Israeli side) and misreporting on what the ship actually was.

Is Sandy Tolan a part of NPR 'news'?

174 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:06:36am

re: #152 researchok

What prime time anchors of FOX News broadcasts made those kind of offensive remarks?

Or are you referring to entertainment show hosts?

Fox is a News channel........ they keep telling me so.

175 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:06:36am

re: #169 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Damn. Shoulda said "cat burglar".

Why would you want/ need to steal cats?

Hell ,, go to a shelter and you can get dozens!!!!

176 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:07:26am

re: #164 BigPapa

The problem is that the term has been so trivialized that it's meaning has been seriously distilled, warped, changed to something very plain. And that's the danger because when it really happens again there will be not way to clearly make a comparison.

I don't mean to sound too dire or outlandish but the needle has bumped back that direction. With the media structure built of today and the displays of mass ignorance I'm very concerned.

While there is an obvious oversaturation, it only means that simplistic name-calling doesn't work. Proper analogies should. Suppose tomorrow Ahmadinejad gathers Jewish books and publicly burns them. Still no comparison possible?

177 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:07:32am

re: #170 wozzablog

Beck...
[Link: mediamatters.org...]

Beck is many things but he is not a news anchor.

178 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:07:50am

re: #171 wrenchwench

Got cake?

No but I know a lady who makes really good pie.

179 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:08:05am

re: #168 PT Barnum

Just a matter of measuring and stuff. It's easy. But very difficult to do without standing in the room.

It's a fun gig.

Pick up some of Sattv's overtime.

180 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:08:41am

re: #175 sattv4u2

Why would you want/ need to steal cats?

Hell ,, go to a shelter and you can get dozens!!!

You go to animal shelters to get pu.... no..not going there.

181 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:08:43am

re: #167 sizzleRI

Out of curiosity, do you see no difference in scale? Or the fact that it took 4/5 years to get to the level of vitriol aimed and 3 months to reach that level with Obama? I didn't like the George Chimp Nazi Bush shit then, but I can see a dramatic difference in scale.

Scale is in the eye of the beholder, to a large degree.

As a rule, the critics of the party out of power are generally noisier (and to be perfectly more frank, more stupid) than the party in power when it comes to political hysteria.

182 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:08:44am

re: #174 wozzablog

Fox is a News channel... they keep telling me so.

CNN tells me they are The Most Trusted Name In News!
[Link: www.cnn.com...]

Thats what you get for believing people!

183 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:08:54am

re: #150 elizajane

So reporting negatively on, say, waterboarding, is the same as reporting negatively on, say, death panels?

As a pretty regular NPR listener, and a pretty centrist Democrat, I really can't say that I ever found myself moved to the gut-wrenching hatred and hysteria that listeners to right-wing media clearly feel today.

...and you know that those who listen to right wing media are clearly hating and hysterical based on what? A few protesters with nasty signs? Talk Show Hosts?

That very loose standard could easily condemn any political viewpoint by the extreme examples that invariably follow.

184 SpaceJesus  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:09:13am

Having a policy against being a racist douchebag makes you a Nazi?

Does Fox live in upside-down land?

185 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:09:15am

re: #132 Major Tom

So a question...

If a person (lets say at Fox) is repeating verbatim what Hitler said in a speech, (except instead of Jews he was railing against, lets say progressives,) you can't call him a Nazi because that would be polarizing and misrepresenting the holocaust? I guess what I'm asking is does a person have to commit genocide before you can compare them to the Nazis? ...and along those lines, how would you warn people of the extremism being presented without the comparison? Wouldn't it be dangerous to describe a person like that with more moderate examples? Doesn't that, in effect, contribute to the banality of evil?

In what way is it reasonable to compare the executives at NPR to Nazis?

186 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:09:41am

re: #179 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Just a matter of measuring and stuff. It's easy. But very difficult to do without standing in the room.

It's a fun gig.

Pick up some of Sattv's overtime.

My problem is trying to figure out where to put everything in the space I have. It's a small kitchen and I don't have nearly enough counter space.

187 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:10:28am

re: #185 Charles

In what way is reasonable to compare the executives at NPR to Nazis?

Because shut up! that's why!

//

188 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:10:29am

re: #186 PT Barnum

My problem is trying to figure out where to put everything in the space I have. It's a small kitchen and I don't have nearly enough counter space.

You would if you eliminate all those needless appliances!!
/

189 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:10:45am

re: #177 sattv4u2

Beck is many things but he is not a news anchor.

News anchor was someone elses term. I jst said "anchor". Simples.

190 Major Tom  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:10:57am

re: #172 DaddyG

OK. Not a speech on hwys or healthcare. But on the cancer infesting pure German or, in this case, American society... I shouldn't have to say this... you know which speeches I'm referring to...

191 webevintage  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:11:16am

re: #29 researchok

Ailes wasn't the first to go down this road. I do wish there was the same outrage.

Ted Turner compares Fox News to Nazis

Wow, Ted Turner is an asshole.
Who knew?

192 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:11:26am

re: #158 Renaissance_Man

Well, the point would be that NPR terminated an employee for a long history of editorial behaviour unbecoming to a journalist and specifically out of line with the journalistic standards of their organisation. It is a bizarre conclusion to draw to equate that to them saying 'you're a Nazi'.

Actually, my reference to was to NPR's own statements.

They don't reflect the kind of thinking NPR approves of.

I could remark on statements maed by other NPR talking heads with whom NPR took no issue, but I'm sure you get the point.

193 Big Steve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:11:31am

I did not like it when the left referred to Bush as a Nazi and painted swastikas on his picture and I don't like it when Fox News executives refer to NPR as Nazis and I don't like it when Rush calls feminists feminazi's. To me the word "Nazi" should be another "N" word and one should only use it when you can fully expect to get your ass kicked, literally, by whom you used it on.

194 Interesting Times  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:11:32am

re: #177 sattv4u2

Beck is many things but he is not a news anchor.

Fox anchors repeat things raised on Hannity/Beck's shows as if they are news. "Perpetual revulsion machine" all the way.

195 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:11:34am

re: #181 researchok

What about the anti-science bullshit that Fox News pushes, specifically on AGW denial and creationism?

196 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:11:44am

re: #179 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Just a matter of measuring and stuff. It's easy. But very difficult to do without standing in the room.

It's a fun gig.

Pick up some of Sattv's overtime.

Fine with me

YOU pay my kids tuition for the next 5 years!

197 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:12:19am

re: #191 webevintage

Wow, Ted Turner is an asshole.
Who knew?

LOLOL

Hey, it took Jane Fonda a while to figure that one out as well.

198 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:12:57am

re: #182 sattv4u2

CNN tells me they are The Most Trusted Name In News!
[Link: www.cnn.com...]

Thats what you get for believing people!

Heh. It's funny 'cos it's true.

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

199 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:13:13am

re: #195 Obdicut

What about the anti-science bullshit that Fox News pushes, specifically on AGW denial and creationism?

No argument here.

200 Major Tom  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:13:36am

re: #185 Charles

In no way I'm aware of. I was asking because of the conversation earlier in the thread where it seems some people in here were discussing how neither side of the aisle should be using the 'hysterical' rhetoric of evoking the Nazis... I feel there are apt situations to do so... Glenn Beck would be one example.

201 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:14:00am

re: #194 publicityStunted

Fox anchors repeat things raised on Hannity/Beck's shows as if they are news. "Perpetual revulsion machine" all the way.

And they called Obama a "Nazi" where!?!?!

(That IS what we were talking about ,, that the MSM anchors didn't use the BushHitler term and it was intimated that Fox DOES in re: to Obama ,,, I asked where their ((Fox's)) News Anchors had

202 reine.de.tout  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:14:03am

re: #166 sattv4u2

Heya LADY!!

Long Time/ No See/ hear!~!

You okay !?!?

yeah!
Doing just fine, and you?

I've been around, I think we're just on different schedules.

203 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:14:59am

re: #199 researchok

No argument here.

Good. So, since AGW denial is a GOP plank and creationism is something pushed by large numbers of the GOP, the propaganda that Fox pushes in regards to those subjects is something that benefits the GOP, yes?

204 lawhawk  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:15:14am

Maybe we should restate the rules on name calling?

You don't call someone a Nazi just because you disagree with them. Nazis slaughtered millions of people and engaged in genocide - the purposeful and direct mass murder of an entire people because they were different.

You don't call someone Hitler because you disagree with them. Hitler not only led the Nazi regime, but directed the genocide and mass murder of tens of millions of people across Europe and lay waste to much of Europe in the process. Hitler and the Nazis carried out the Holocaust.

Those are words that have specific meanings. Those words carry moral and ethical weight, and every time someone uses these terms willy-nilly and without care for context or accuracy, they debase the very terminology.

It's what the Arabs and Palestinians do all the time with respect to Israel - claiming that the Israelis are engaging in a Holocaust or genocide of Palestinians, when no such action has ever occurred. It's debasing the terminology and it lessens the lesson of the Holocaust and Never Again - to make sure that such actions can never occur.

Ailes is an ass to have used the terminology or even attempted to make the comparison.

205 webevintage  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:15:28am

re: #184 SpaceJesus

Having a policy against being a racist douchebag makes you a Nazi?

Does Fox live in upside-down land?

Yes, yes they do and so do a nice percentage of their viewers.

BTW it seems that the TeaGOP party is getting their priories in order:

The Republican campaign to take away all federal funding from National Public Radio (NPR) was over before it began, with GOP lawmakers' procedural trick to force a vote on the issue failing on Thursday. It was the first GOP-ordered House vote since the election


[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

206 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:15:32am

re: #202 reine.de.tout

yeah!
Doing just fine, and you?

I've been around, I think we're just on different schedules.

Yup ,,, I'm doing overnights at work for the next 3-4 months!!

{groan},, Right now, it's the middle of the night for me and I should be sleeping

In fact ,,, Nighty Night!

207 Major Tom  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:16:39am

re: #204 lawhawk

Never again... Except in Africa... /

208 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:16:43am

re: #191 webevintage

Wow, Ted Turner is an asshole.
Who knew?

his western states reclamation work is outstanding, otherwise, PINHEAD!

209 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:17:05am

Because it was requested, I made a post about the origins of anti-matter, QM, and why the CERN announcement of trapping anti-hydrogen is so important.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

210 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:17:29am

re: #190 Major Tom

OK. Not a speech on hwys or healthcare. But on the cancer infesting pure German or, in this case, American society... I shouldn't have to say this... you know which speeches I'm referring to...


Not being a huge cable news afficianado I don't really know which speeches you are referring to. But I could speak authoratatively on Sesame Street, Frontline, Jazz programming and the new Sherlock episodes on Masterpiece Mystery.

Getting back to my original point. I started following LGF because they/we did a good job of avoiding the hyperbole and demonization that a lot of other media and new media groups were making their stock and trade. When someone is slandering others as Nazi's responding with hyperbole or demonization is not only non-productive it actually escalates the problem.

I've never been a fan of blog wars or media wars. They smell like blazing egos out of control.

211 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:17:32am

re: #208 albusteve

his western states reclamation work is outstanding, otherwise, PINHEAD!

His Teds Montana Grill Bison steaks are AMAZING!!

212 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:18:10am

re: #191 webevintage

Wow, Ted Turner is an asshole.
Who knew?

The son in law he fired at the dinner table.

213 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:18:51am

As to "Beck still having a job because the sickness goes all the way to the top," I think Charles has that backwards. I think that the sickness started at the top, with Murdoch who saw a market niche, and they found Beck and execs to express it.

214 Stanghazi  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:19:06am

re: #17 albusteve

encore...
"Obama Praises Black Home Stealer"

[Link: blogs.ajc.com...]

I had to log in to upding this one.

215 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:19:45am

re: #211 sattv4u2

His Teds Montana Grill Bison steaks are AMAZING!!

I've heard...I do not believe there is one in all of NM

216 Jack Burton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:19:54am

re: #209 LudwigVanQuixote

Because it was requested, I made a post about the origins of anti-matter, QM, and why the CERN announcement of trapping anti-hydrogen is so important.

So we can store it in magnetic bottles to react with hydrogen and deuterons later and power warp drive.

/

217 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:20:05am

re: #201 sattv4u2

And they called Obama a "Nazi" where!?!?!

(That IS what we were talking about ,, that the MSM anchors didn't use the BushHitler term and it was intimated that Fox DOES in re: to Obama ,,, I asked where their ((Fox's)) News Anchors had


For christmas' sake. Fox is a "news channel" the anchors on who's shows repeatedly use nazi imagery & allusions in relation to progressives and the president.
What is not clear about that??????????

218 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:20:23am

re: #204 lawhawk

That is just what I said above. But you just replaced all my words with better words.

219 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:21:11am

re: #194 publicityStunted

Fox anchors repeat things raised on Hannity/Beck's shows as if they are news. "Perpetual revulsion machine" all the way.

You are not the first or the last to notice this.

Ohh and please check out,

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

And tell me if my anti-matter and electron waveform guitar analogy makes sense to you. I know what I wrote is correct, but I can always use "tuning" myself in expressing it without mathematics.

220 Kronocide  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:21:12am

re: #176 Sergey Romanov

While there is an obvious oversaturation, it only means that simplistic name-calling doesn't work. Proper analogies should. Suppose tomorrow Ahmadinejad gathers Jewish books and publicly burns them. Still no comparison possible?

Yes, you and I and many on LGF. The common consumer of news, the common Fox listener/watcher, not so much. We are a significant minority.

221 sattv4u2  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:21:14am

re: #215 albusteve

I've heard...I do not believe there is one in all of NM

Don't see one

Location drop box under menu. You can see where the "nearest" one is

[Link: www.tedsmontanagrill.com...]

222 Interesting Times  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:21:15am

re: #201 sattv4u2

And they called Obama a "Nazi" where!?!?!

(That IS what we were talking about ,, that the MSM anchors didn't use the BushHitler term and it was intimated that Fox DOES in re: to Obama ,,, I asked where their ((Fox's)) News Anchors had

FOX News anchor compares NJ school kids video to Nazi Germany

I removed a word from the link title because I realized it was a wingnutty addition, which in a way makes this even more damning - the fox video in question was uploaded by a self-described conservative who thinks it's a good thing that a fox news anchor is making the Nazi comparison.

So there you have it, straight from a fox fan's mouth - their so-called "news" anchors make Nazi comparisons as well.

223 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:21:15am

re: #200 Major Tom

In no way I'm aware of. I was asking because of the conversation earlier in the thread where it seems some people in here were discussing how neither side of the aisle should be using the 'hysterical' rhetoric of evoking the Nazis... I feel there are apt situations to do so... Glenn Beck would be one example.

Glenn Beck is a Nazi?

224 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:22:44am

re: #216 ArchangelMichael

So we can store it in magnetic bottles to react with hydrogen and deuterons later and power warp drive.

/

Not so much - at current technologies, it costs about $ 70 trillion per gram to create and we can only store it for fractions of a second. We only make them about a few hundred atoms at a time as of now.

225 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:24:20am

re: #216 ArchangelMichael

So we can store it in magnetic bottles to react with hydrogen and deuterons later and power warp drive.

/

I wished!
Antimatter is hilariously expensive.

226 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:24:28am

re: #224 LudwigVanQuixote

Not so much - at current technologies, it costs about $ 70 trillion per gram to create and we can only store it for fractions of a second. We only make them about a few hundred atoms at a time as of now.


Big Hydrogen sucking at the government teat!!! /

227 Jack Burton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:24:30am

re: #224 LudwigVanQuixote

Not so much - at current technologies, it costs about $ 70 trillion per gram to create and we can only store it for fractions of a second. We only make them about a few hundred atoms at a time as of now.

Yep. I'm pretty sure that particular method of power generation will never be cost effective.

228 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:25:13am

saying "this is exactly what hitler did"........ "they're doing what the nazi's did" - when ample non nazi related analogies are available equates to calling someone a Nazi.

229 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:25:24am

re: #217 wozzablog

For christmas' sake. Fox is a "news channel" the anchors on who's shows repeatedly use nazi imagery & allusions in relation to progressives and the president.
What is not clear about that???

And ironically those twisted fascists at Fox and in the current GOP, are taking plays right out of the Nazi play book - quite literally and promoting Nazi ideas themselves.

This folks is a mark of how soon a culture forgets and how badly our education system has failed in America.

Of course, our education system is the frequent target of the same Nazi-esque right wing. It fits all too well together.

230 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:25:50am

It is very, very cool that something that only existed in the realm of theoretical physics is now being created on earth. I am impressed even if I don't understand how its done.

231 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:26:21am

re: #227 ArchangelMichael

Yep. I'm pretty sure that particular method of power generation will never be cost effective.

Forget that.
Cold fusion is where it's at!
///

232 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:26:55am

re: #231 Varek Raith

Forget that.
Cold fusion is where it's at!
///

Not if you have to program in it.

233 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:27:37am

re: #228 wozzablog

saying "this is exactly what hitler did"... "they're doing what the nazi's did" - when ample non nazi related analogies are available equates to calling someone a Nazi.


...but I wouldn't get on the National Transportation and Highway Administration about their desire to keep the highways and railroads running smoothly. /just kidding - your point is valid - too many politicos and pundits use dictatorships to demonize their political opposites.

234 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:27:47am

re: #222 publicityStunted

Let us remember the words of John Stewart at his recent (non-Nürnberg) rally in Washington D.C.:

"Therea re real Nazis out there and real Stalinists. But those folks have to earn that title, they have to do really heinious things to actually deserve being called that"

(not a verbatim quote, but that is how I recall the jist of it)

235 Kragar  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:27:56am

re: #231 Varek Raith

Forget that.
Cold fusion is where it's at!
///

A complicated system of ropes and pulleys are all we ever really need.

236 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:28:02am

re: #228 wozzablog

saying "this is exactly what hitler did"... "they're doing what the nazi's did" - when ample non nazi related analogies are available equates to calling someone a Nazi.

Or when it is actually nothing at all like Hitler or th Nazis, I think is the bigger point.

The real Nazis are at Fox who are copying Goebbels in form, function and message, and many teabags who are one goose step away from being brownshirts.

237 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:28:30am

re: #233 DaddyG

...but I wouldn't get on the National Transportation and Highway Administration about their desire to keep the highways and railroads running smoothly. /just kidding - your point is valid - too many politicos and pundits use dictatorships to demonize their political opposites.

Mussolini apparently didn't make the trains run on time - thats an urban legend.

238 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:28:56am

re: #221 sattv4u2

Don't see one

Location drop box under menu. You can see where the "nearest" one is

[Link: www.tedsmontanagrill.com...]

up in CO Springs, looks like....I'll take Walter there sometime....check out this place

[Link: www.vermejoparkranch.com...]

239 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:29:26am

re: #223 wrenchwench

Glenn Beck is a Nazi?

Change the uumpahs for banjos and yes, of course he is.

240 engineer cat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:29:54am

the media empires are ultimately only interested in profit. that's why clearchannel runs progressive radio in markets like the bay area where it makes a profit

the right-wing-ization of media can only go as far as it remains profitable

241 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:29:56am

Just curious if anyone has any knowledge of whether information excluded in Ghailani trial, that would have been included in a military tribunal, would have led to convictions on more counts.

Of course, even there would have been more convictions, it wouldn't have made a significant difference in the impact of a guilty verdict on how he lives his life (assuming he gets life without parole anyway).

But surely, since people are so sure that trying him in civilian court is a huge security threat (attributable to Obama's weakness/terrorist sympathies/Muslim ideology), they must have evidence of how a military trial would have produced a different result.

Right?

242 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:30:13am

re: #236 LudwigVanQuixote


The real Nazis are at Fox who are copying Goebbels in form, function and message, and many teabags who are one goose step away from being brownshirts.

Beg your parden but being a propagandist doesn't make one a Nazi either. Until a news outlet is owned lock, stock and barrel by the government and used to promote racial purity and genocide I think the charge is out of order from any source.

243 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:30:20am

See y'all in a bit.

244 recusancy  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:30:50am

re: #200 Major Tom

In no way I'm aware of. I was asking because of the conversation earlier in the thread where it seems some people in here were discussing how neither side of the aisle should be using the 'hysterical' rhetoric of evoking the Nazis... I feel there are apt situations to do so... Glenn Beck would be one example.

He's come the closest, I think, when speaking about progressivism being a disease that needs to be "eradicated". It's still hyperbolic, though, to call him a Nazi.

245 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:30:56am

re: #237 wozzablog

Mussolini apparently didn't make the trains run on time - thats an urban legend.


Tell that to his propaganda minister. /

246 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:31:13am

re: #242 DaddyG

Beg your parden but being a propagandist doesn't make one a Nazi either. Until a news outlet is owned lock, stock and barrel by the government and used to promote racial purity and genocide I think the charge is out of order from any source.


But the Nazis did not own a lot of the networks and news outlets, they simly exerted a very close control on what they reported on and how.

247 DaddyG  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:31:59am

re: #240 engineer dog

the media empires are ultimately only interested in profit. that's why clearchannel runs progressive radio in markets like the bay area where it makes a profit

the right-wing-ization of media can only go as far as it remains profitable


I just want to know who is resopnsible for Justin Beber. Gaaaaah!

248 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:32:18am

re: #239 LudwigVanQuixote

Change the uumpahs for banjos and yes, of course he is.

i hear banjos........

249 Jack Burton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:35:21am

re: #237 wozzablog

That's probably because of what Eddie Izzard said:

Mussolini said, "We're all Fascists." But most ltalian people are always on scooters going, "Ciao." They're into football and life and they're not Fascists.
"We're all Fascists."
"All right. Ciao."

Not conducive to getting trains to run on time.

//

250 lawhawk  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:36:15am

re: #241 Talking Point Detective

It's my understanding that the excluded evidence would have better tied him to the crimes. As it was, there were 280 counts against him - and most were duplications - 1 count of murder for each of the victims, 1 count attempted murder for those who survived the attacks. Add in the conspiracy charges, and you've got the total number of charges. Without a direct link to the crimes alleged, you couldn't show that he committed one murder, let alone all of the murders at either of the embassies.

The sentence on the conspiracy charge is 20 to life, so he'll probably spend the better part of his life behind bars anyways.

The real issue is how and why the evidence was excluded. It's possible that the excluded evidence would have been allowed in a tribunal but under the federal evidenciary rules they were excluded.

251 Kragar  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:36:58am

re: #247 DaddyG

I just want to know who is resopnsible for Justin Beber. Gaaah!

Wait 10 years and laugh at the wreck, thats my plan.

252 Major Tom  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:37:47am

re: #210 DaddyG

[Link: www.dailykos.com...]


here's a primer

253 engineer cat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:38:41am

i tried asking my regular wingnut correspondants, who naturally talk about 'socialism' all the time, to give me some definitions, since they know so much about it. some results:

the nanny state where government does for you what you should do for yourself. Providing health care for yourself and your family, saving for retirement, deciding what to eat, etc.

...

First, Socialism is not a point. It is an area on a continuum that runs from
anarchy to communism and socialism covers a range of definitions. For example, in Chile the government requires contributions to their version of Social Security, but each individual has his own account and can select how to invest. Is that socilaism or no?

The only abuse being done here is by you insisting that socialism is a single point and ignoring that communism and fascism are also socialistic systems.

...

Political labels -- fascism, communism, socialism, capitalism, even conservatism and liberalism -- are slippery things. They cover a lot of territory and come in a variety of flavors. They work well as shorthand in discussing one set of ideas relative to another, but their handiness comes at the cost of precision. Context is key, and it usually provides enough precision to convey the intended meaning. If not, you obviously have to ask the user to elaborate on his usage in the particular instance. After all, it's the idea behind the word, not the word in the abstract, that is important.

thanks for, uh, clearing that up. when it comes down to it, in their minds it doesn't come down to anything

for the record, socialism, strictly speaking, is a system of economic organization where the government owns and operates the major industries. curiously, this is the same as the definition found in dictionaries. i'm not in favor of it. more loosely, it covers things like nationalized pension funds and health insurance plans. all modern governments are partially socialized in this way

254 cliffster  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:39:21am

How crazy is it for Fox to say that people are Nazis?? Oh, btw, Fox is a bunch of Nazis. And Tea Partiers are Nazis. And Arizona lawmakers are Nazis. hahahaha

255 Renaissance_Man  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:40:33am

What a strange, strange fantasy world it must be. A world where a major news network in a free democracy can have its biggest headline star baldly compare the President and over half the country to Nazis, repeatedly, where the news anchors on that show uncritically invite pundits on who make the same comparison, repeatedly, yet it's 'okay' because those news anchors do not specifically make the exact statement, 'the President is a Nazi'. Not only that, but this is somehow comparable to something the 'left' did. Whatever that may be.

Note: you may feel it's the same. You may consider it basically the same. But it is not. It's not, because, well, it's just your feelings. And not actually what happened.

256 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:41:27am

re: #254 cliffster

Arizona lawmakers are Nazis

Hahah, did you miss the part where that law was, indeed, written by a nazi???

257 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:44:31am

re: #254 cliffster

How crazy is it for Fox to say that people are Nazis?? Oh, btw, Fox is a bunch of Nazis. And Tea Partiers are Nazis. And Arizona lawmakers are Nazis. hahahaha


re: #256 Varek Raith

Hahah, did you miss the part where that law was, indeed, written by a nazi???


Or where there is a circle jerk of far right media personalities going on white supremacist shows................

258 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:46:14am

re: #256 Varek Raith

Hahah, did you miss the part where that law was, indeed, written by a nazi???

Video: The White Supremacist Roots of Arizona's Immigration Law

259 cliffster  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:51:26am

re: #257 wozzablog

re: #256 Varek Raith


Or where there is a circle jerk of far right media personalities going on white supremacist shows...

people can't see their partisan silliness if it slaps them in the face. work yourself into a froth over fox calling people nazis, all the while calling people nazis. anyone other than fellow slaves to blind partisanship can see how insane it is.

260 Major Tom  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:54:54am

[Link: www.bnet.com...]


Just sayin.

261 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:57:51am

re: #259 cliffster

Or, perhaps, you're just ignoring the truth because it conflicts with your view?

262 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 11:59:47am

re: #259 cliffster

re: #258 Varek Raith

Video: The White Supremacist Roots of Arizona's Immigration Law

263 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:04:30pm

re: #203 Obdicut

Good. So, since AGW denial is a GOP plank and creationism is something pushed by large numbers of the GOP, the propaganda that Fox pushes in regards to those subjects is something that benefits the GOP, yes?

Yes.

Like other networks benefit other parties.

And this is news?

264 cliffster  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:04:58pm

re: #261 Varek Raith

Or, perhaps, you're just ignoring the truth because it conflicts with your view?

Perhaps. Doubtful, though - I think it's stupid to call people Nazis. It's even stupider to call people Nazis when you realize that it's stupid to do so. Justify it all you want - it feels good in the short term... helps vent that partisan anger. In the end, though, you're a prisoner to your own patchwork of rationalizations.

265 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:05:24pm

re: #263 researchok

What other networks push lies on the scale of AGW denial, please?

Which other networks push an issue on the scale of creationism, please?

266 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:06:49pm

re: #264 cliffster

Is calling people who are nationalistic White Supremacists 'Nazis' okay?

267 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:07:06pm

re: #181 researchok

Scale is in the eye of the beholder, to a large degree.

As a rule, the critics of the party out of power are generally noisier (and to be perfectly more frank, more stupid) than the party in power when it comes to political hysteria.

In general, I'm sympathetic to your arguments about the blindness of some on the left about the nature/degree of their hyperbolic rhetoric and closed-mindedness.

That said, honestly, and trying as hard as I can to check and double-check and triple-check for hyperbola and closed-mindedness in my own perspectives, I find it hard to believe that you see some equivalence between Fox and NPR.

I don't think that Fox is full of Nazis or even people exclusively focused on making money no matter the cost. My basic assumption that that they are fundamentally, with a few notable exceptions (notably virtually all of their anchors), no more demonic or Machiavellian than the next person: they're ideologues and their ideological bent colors their reasoning.

Still, there is a matter of degree. Do you really think that they are equivalently biased or ideologically driven? Do you really think that it is more or less only a matter of who is out of power at the given point in time?

268 Major Tom  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:09:59pm

re: #204 lawhawk

I know you may have moved on, But I'm curious about this one part of your comment...

"...lessens the lesson of the Holocaust and Never Again - to make sure that such actions can never occur."

Why does that not apply to Africa? How can you say that with what I presume is a straight face? Or were/are we really only interested in preventing that from occurring again in Europe?

269 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:10:43pm

re: #250 lawhawk

It's my understanding that the excluded evidence would have better tied him to the crimes. As it was, there were 280 counts against him - and most were duplications - 1 count of murder for each of the victims, 1 count attempted murder for those who survived the attacks. Add in the conspiracy charges, and you've got the total number of charges. Without a direct link to the crimes alleged, you couldn't show that he committed one murder, let alone all of the murders at either of the embassies.

The sentence on the conspiracy charge is 20 to life, so he'll probably spend the better part of his life behind bars anyways.

The real issue is how and why the evidence was excluded. It's possible that the excluded evidence would have been allowed in a tribunal but under the federal evidenciary rules they were excluded.

Thanks for the response, but what I'm really asking is for something more specific. Obviously, specifics are going to be hard to come by given rules of evidence in play - but the rightwing is already saying that the trial outcome is a reflection of Obama's "weakness" and is evidence of a national security threat.

Surely they must have evidence to back up those charges. Right?

270 cliffster  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:13:00pm

re: #266 Obdicut

Is calling people who are nationalistic White Supremacists 'Nazis' okay?

I'd stay away from the comparison altogether, myself. Step 2 of that is doing whatever you can to link people you don't like to said white supremacists. Step 3 - anyone you don't like is a Nazi.

Either way, do you dispute a very large trend to compare beliefs, tactics, etc of the Tea Party, Republicans in general, etc, to those of the Nazis?

271 nines09  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:17:33pm

re: #78 albusteve
I do not care for the way Nazi is thrown around by this company/corporation. I do not care for Fox per se. So if I make a snide remark about a snide chairman, I'm a heartless asshole? Have a nice day.

272 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:18:43pm

re: #270 cliffster

Why are you ignoring the facts behind the people who helped write the Arizona immigration bill?
I only posted it twice.

273 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:21:57pm

re: #270 cliffster

I'd stay away from the comparison altogether, myself

Why?

Step 2 of that is doing whatever you can to link people you don't like to said white supremacists. Step 3 - anyone you don't like is a Nazi.

No, that's a bizarre train of thought. If I call white supremacist nationalist Nazis, it doesn't mean that I'll 'do whatever I can to link people I don't like to said white supremacists'. Why would you say something like that?


Either way, do you dispute a very large trend to compare beliefs, tactics, etc of the Tea Party, Republicans in general, etc, to those of the Nazis?

A very large trend? Yes, I'll dispute that. There's a minor trend. For example, here on LGF, Ludwig has compared the Tea Party people to the people who supported the Nazis during their earliest days. That is still vastly different from calling people actual Nazis. However, a couple of people on LGF doesn't actually constitute a trend.

Would you be happier if, instead of comparing the Tea Party people to Nazis, people said that they were nationalistic, xenophobic, highly socially conservative, highly religious, antagonistic to science, and tending towards a monoculture?

274 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:22:04pm

re: #270 cliffster

IEither way, do you dispute a very large trend to compare beliefs, tactics, etc of the Tea Party, Republicans in general, etc, to those of the Nazis?

Personally, I find calling white supremacists white supremacists sufficient, and when they're photographed giving Nazi salutes (like the English Defense League), calling them white supremacist Nazis suffices.

That said, again, there is a matter of degree, and in that light, you neglected to add to your list, the long-standing trends of red-baiting/terrorist sympathizer/nanny-statist/liberal guilt, etc., hyperbola spewed 24/7/365 from the right.

Your point loses its strength when you fail (to at least try) to stay in an accurate balance.

275 cliffster  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:24:19pm

re: #272 Varek Raith

Why are you ignoring the facts behind the people who helped write the Arizona immigration bill?
I only posted it twice.

I'm not ignoring anything. Unfortunately, there has been a lot more calling of people Nazis than just, the dude that helped write the Arizona law.

276 cliffster  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:26:32pm

re: #273 Obdicut

Would you be happier if, instead of comparing the Tea Party people to Nazis, people said that they were nationalistic, xenophobic, highly socially conservative, highly religious, antagonistic to science, and tending towards a monoculture?

One is accountable only to oneself. If one wants to make fun of a Fox guy for calling people Nazis, and then turn around and call Tea Partiers Nazis, they can knock themselves out. I'm only pointing out what any non-blindly-partisan person can see.. that that is stupid.

277 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:28:17pm

re: #276 cliffster

I'm sorry, you ignored the actual point of my post. Would you care to answer it?


Would you be happier if, instead of comparing the Tea Party people to Nazis, people said that they were nationalistic, xenophobic, highly socially conservative, highly religious, antagonistic to science, and tending towards a monoculture?

278 Interesting Times  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:28:51pm

re: #270 cliffster

Either way, do you dispute a very large trend to compare beliefs, tactics, etc of the Tea Party, Republicans in general, etc, to those of the Nazis?

These guys do it too, in a way. I wonder why...

279 Kragar  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:31:55pm

re: #277 Obdicut

I'm sorry, you ignored the actual point of my post. Would you care to answer it?


Would you be happier if, instead of comparing the Tea Party people to Nazis, people said that they were nationalistic, xenophobic, highly socially conservative, highly religious, antagonistic to science, and tending towards a monoculture?

Wouldn't it be easier to just call them Republicans?

280 cliffster  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:33:57pm

re: #277 Obdicut

I'm sorry, you ignored the actual point of my post. Would you care to answer it?

Would you be happier if, instead of comparing the Tea Party people to Nazis, people said that they were nationalistic, xenophobic, highly socially conservative, highly religious, antagonistic to science, and tending towards a monoculture?

If people feel that way, then that would be a better way of expressing their beliefs. Or, call them Nazis, but it's just plain silly to get outraged at calling people Nazis, while you are busy calling people Nazis. Why is this difficult to grasp?

281 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:36:08pm

re: #280 cliffster

Or, call them Nazis, but it's just plain silly to get outraged at calling people Nazis, while you are busy calling people Nazis.

I'm sorry, can you show me an example of me calling the Tea Party people Nazis?

282 cliffster  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:42:43pm

re: #281 Obdicut

I'm sorry, can you show me an example of me calling the Tea Party people Nazis?

Obdicut, I never said you called anyone a Nazi. In fact, when speaking to you about it I've been very specific about saying, "if one wants to call someone a Nazi", instead of "if you want to call someone a Nazi". Interesting tone you've taken lately..

283 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:45:00pm

re: #282 cliffster

Obdicut, I never said you called anyone a Nazi. In fact, when speaking to you about it I've been very specific about saying, "if one wants to call someone a Nazi", instead of "if you want to call someone a Nazi". Interesting tone you've taken lately..

I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

Or, call them Nazis, but it's just plain silly to get outraged at calling people Nazis, while you are busy calling people Nazis. Why is this difficult to grasp?

284 jea62  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:50:08pm

If anyone thinks this is nonsense, or petty revenge, it's not. This is a dangerous precedent.

The extreme right wants to silence dissenting voices. A coordinated, concerted attack on NPR & PBS is the just first step.

Because if you control the media, you control the flow of information. Ironically enough, something that Hitler was very good at.

285 cliffster  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:50:37pm

re: #283 Obdicut

ok. I let an indefinite "you" slip through instead of the indefinite "one". My most sincere apologies. Hopefully, Mr Obdicut can see, for example in my #276, "One is accountable only to oneself. If one wants to make fun of a Fox guy for calling people Nazis", that I was trying hard not to use the indefinite "you" in my discussion. And there's a reason for that - because I think Mr Obdicut is much more sensible than others, and I wouldn't want him to think I was referring to him directly. ok?

286 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:52:29pm

re: #285 cliffster

Then who are you referring to, specifically?

Further:

If I, or someone else, compares a group that is nationalistic, xenophobic, highly socially conservative, highly religious, antagonistic to science, and tending towards a monoculture to the Nazis, isn't that at least more consistent, and less outrageous, than comparing a group that shares none of those attributes to the Nazis?

287 JEA62  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:57:15pm

re: #281 Obdicut

Only about 50-60 or so pictures of signs with the word "Hitler" or "Nazi" at Tea Party rallies that have been published right here.

For starters.

And isn't it interesting that at the same time that the GOP announces this priority, Roger Ailes is calling NPR a bunch of Nazis?

I certainly wouldn't expect this line to be repeated on Limbaugh's show. Or Beck's Or even on OReilly, Palin, Cavuto, Savage...endlessly...

288 cliffster  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:06:05pm

re: #286 Obdicut


Further:

If I, or someone else, compares a group that is nationalistic, xenophobic, highly socially conservative, highly religious, antagonistic to science, and tending towards a monoculture to the Nazis, isn't that at least more consistent, and less outrageous, than comparing a group that shares none of those attributes to the Nazis?

You pretty much make my point. Lots of people do not agree that most Tea Partiers are like that. They will say you're crazy for calling Tea Partiers Nazis. But they may think that NPR is pushing liberal ideas, government officials using public funds to spread their own agenda. "Just like the Nazis! Sure, it was bad to call Tea Partiers Nazis, but it's ok here because, you know, it's right in this case." A very annoying position, but one that I'm sure is held by many.

Failing to recognize when one is doing the very thing that one observes to be flawed in people you disagree with is a hallmark of partisanship. And the amount of rationalization people do to convince themselves that they are not falling victim to their own partisanship is astonishing. I guess it comes down to pride, really.

289 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:11:52pm

re: #288 cliffster

You pretty much make my point. Lots of people do not agree that most Tea Partiers are like that.

But that's not what I asked.


Failing to recognize when one is doing the very thing that one observes to be flawed in people you disagree with is a hallmark of partisanship. And the amount of rationalization people do to convince themselves that they are not falling victim to their own partisanship is astonishing. I guess it comes down to pride, really.

No, it is not 'the very thing'.

If I compare the Italian Fascists to the Nazis, it makes sense, because they were pretty similar. The Italian Fascists were far less racist, but were otherwise very Nazi-like.

If I compare the Liberal Democrats to the Fascists, it makes far less sense, because there are far fewer points of comparison.

The Tea Party people are, demonstrably, xenophobic, antagonistic towards science, nationalistic, socially conservative, etc.

NPR is barely funded by the government and their agenda is in no way similar to anything remotely like the Nazis.

So a comparison between the Tea Party people and the Nazis, while I feel it's going too far, is still far, far, far, far, far more accurate than comparing NPR to the Nazis.

Do you understand? This is not a black and white issue. It's a comparative one.

290 Amory Blaine  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:12:21pm

American business ethics circa 2010. That a man of his stature employing thousands of people feels no dishonor with this language is disgusting.

And yeah. I know he ain't the only one.

291 Amory Blaine  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:20:17pm

He castigates John Stewart: "He hates conservative views. He hates conservative thoughts. He hates conservative verbiage. He hates conservatives.”

Then he says NPR radio executives are Nazis.

It boggles the mind.

292 cliffster  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:22:47pm

re: #289 Obdicut

that's IF you agree with your characterization of tea partiers. other people don't agree with that characterization. you think that you are right, they think that they are right. if you want to throw around the word Nazi, that's one thing, but then acting outraged that they would do the same is just silly. and rationalizing that behavior by saying, "yeah, but I'm right and they are wrong" is not a good, although very common, approach. Very rarely should "My position is the correct one" be used as a logical basis.

btw.. [Link: grammar.quickanddirtytips.com...]

293 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:25:45pm

re: #292 cliffster

that's IF you agree with your characterization of tea partiers. other people don't agree with that characterization.

It's something that's demonstrably true.

if you want to throw around the word Nazi, that's one thing, but then acting outraged that they would do the same is just silly.

So you've entirely dropped this whole "I'm not saying you" thing, huh?

294 cliffster  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:28:05pm

re: #293 Obdicut

It's something that's demonstrably true.

So you've entirely dropped this whole "I'm not saying you" thing, huh?

from the article I linked - "When one uses this pronoun, one creates a sense of social superiority. " I wouldn't want one to think I feel a sense of superiority. ;)

295 dmon  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:51:20pm

I really dont understand why the Obama administration even acknowledges Fox news. They make outragious reports then he feels compelled to correct it. I would simply not even acknowledge them. Ignore their reports.

There is absolutely no one in their audience that will vote for him or any other other democrat in 2012. Let them live in their dream world and quit wasting valuable time. Now if someday fox decides they want to adher to some basic journalistic standards,,,, then talk to them

296 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:54:33pm

re: #288 cliffster

Failing to recognize when one is doing the very thing that one observes to be flawed in people you disagree with is a hallmark of partisanship. And the amount of rationalization people do to convince themselves that they are not falling victim to their own partisanship is astonishing. I guess it comes down to pride, really.

Just want to say, keep up the good fight.

I cringe when I see liberals,, who object to the fraudulence of a Limbaugh, for example, saying that "Libz hate America," or "Libz want the terrorists to win," fail to see show insight, or worse yet show willful disregard, as to how their own rhetoric can fall into the same fraudulent category.

Calling an entire group of people "Nazis," or "proto-Nazis" if you will, with the obvious intend of associating them with murderous fascists, when you actually have no idea of what percentage of that group actually hold ideologies that are fascistic or murderous in their intent, says more about the finger-pointer than the group being categorized.

297 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 2:02:38pm

re: #296 Talking Point Detective

Heh. The good fight.

It's really funny that, in your fight against what you feel to be an unfair comparison, you're perfectly content to make an incredibly stupid and malicious accusation.

I don't say that the Tea Party groups have a resemblance to proto-Nazis because I want to associate them with murderous fascists.

I say that the Tea Party groups have a resemblance to proto-Nazis because they have a resemblance to proto-Nazis. Because they are nationalistic, antagonistic towards intellectuals, populist, xenophobic, racist, and socially conservative.

They are similar to the "Americanists" we had during the 1950s and 60s, as well.

298 Amory Blaine  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 2:44:36pm

re: #296 Talking Point Detective

Just want to say, keep up the good fight.

I cringe when I see liberals,, who object to the fraudulence of a Limbaugh, for example, saying that "Libz hate America," or "Libz want the terrorists to win," fail to see show insight, or worse yet show willful disregard, as to how their own rhetoric can fall into the same fraudulent category.

Calling an entire group of people "Nazis," or "proto-Nazis" if you will, with the obvious intend of associating them with murderous fascists, when you actually have no idea of what percentage of that group actually hold ideologies that are fascistic or murderous in their intent, says more about the finger-pointer than the group being categorized.

Because liberals are on radio and TV 24/7 calling conservatives Nazis?

299 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 2:57:23pm

re: #298 Amory Blaine

Because liberals are on radio and TV 24/7 calling conservatives Nazis?

No. Not at all. As a matter of scale, there is a significant difference, and I made that very point to cliffster. It is an important point, and needs to be emphasized.

As a mater of kind, I don't think there is a difference.


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