Former Gitmo Detainee Acquitted on Most Counts, Still Faces Life Sentence

US News • Views: 25,876

The right wing blogosphere and media are gibbering in unison again, over the outcome in the trial of former Guantanamo Bay detainee Ahmed Ghailani. Some quotes: “a major fail,” “the shame of the terror-appeasing left,” “the latest blow to Team Obama,” “a full blown fiasco,” etc.

All this raging is because Ghailani, who was on trial for his role in the 1998 terrorist bombings of the US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, was acquitted of more than 280 counts, but convicted of only one count of conspiracy.

I’m puzzled why they think this is such a fiasco, though, since that one charge alone carries a sentence of 20 years to life in prison, and there’s a very good chance he’ll get life. I don’t see how that translates to a “major fail” for the government, and I seriously doubt Ghailani considers a 20-year minimum sentence a “major win.”

And we should note that there’s a reason why Ghailani was acquitted of the other charges: because the evidence was obtained during the Bush administration, while Ghailani was at Guantanamo Bay.

By torturing him.

So it was excluded.

Speaking of “fiascos” and “major fails.”

Jump to bottom

720 comments
1 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:02:34pm

I called it yesterday. I knew they would flip out because he was only convicted of one charge (even though it means a life sentence).

2 Kragar  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:03:49pm

LOOK! A HUGE DISTRACTING THING!

/Your local wingnut pundit

3 theheat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:06:10pm

Another win for the terrorists! What a waste of torture!
//

4 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:07:01pm

Maybe if you posted bloody photos of the aftermath of the attack, then you'd feel the outrageous outrage and understand just what a fiasco it is.

/

5 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:07:41pm

by the way, thanks for not ever doing that

6 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:08:56pm

"But of course we tortured them, that's why we cannot process them through our courts, silly!"

/ Seriously, thank you for this posting, Charles.

7 Merryweather  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:10:41pm

I really hate the way this is being framed in the media - as a failure for the DoJ. No, it's a failure for the Bush/Cheney policy of torture that the morons on the right continually champion, because if they had abided by the rule of law, those charges wouldn't have been thrown out. This is actually a triumph of the principles America was founded upon.

I also find the idea that a 'not guilty' verdict is a 'failure' of the justice system disturbing.

8 SpaceJesus  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:11:18pm

The rule of law? haha who needs that

9 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:13:35pm

But now we can't keep him in jail during his next lives.

10 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:14:30pm

Aside from that whole little torture detail, I'm still wondering whether or not anyone has any actual evidence that the outcome of the trial would have been different if this had been a military tribunal.

We know that effectively, the outcome would have been no different in that if he spends the rest of his life in jail, more convictions wouldn't have resulted in a greater impact on his life.

But would he have really been convicted on more counts had the venue been different? Does anyone actually know that to be the case?

I mean, it's not like the rightwing is using this as a club, by exploiting issues of national security, to bash Obama. They'd never do that.

11 Merryweather  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:15:40pm

re: #9 Decatur Deb

But now we can't keep him in jail during his next lives.

The way the right-wing acts, you'd think terrorist suspects have mysterious superhuman powers that will allow them to break free of any prison, live forever, and control the minds of juries.

12 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:16:12pm

re: #8 SpaceJesus

The rule of law? haha who needs that

lawyers

13 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:16:38pm

re: #9 Decatur Deb

But now we can't keep him in jail during his next lives.

"Dang, shoulda forced them to sign that billion-year contract while we were at it!"

14 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:17:37pm

terror plotting is the new jay walking...life should be mandatory

15 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:17:46pm

I apologize for going OT so early in the thread, but I couldn't resist. It looks like Caribou Barbie is getting ready to have another hissy fit:

[Link: twitter.com...]

16 cliffster  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:18:17pm

get life in prison and probably not a very pleasant one at that. but multiple life sentences served consecutively sends a message, man.

17 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:19:44pm

re: #15 CuriousLurker

How can one take her out of context? There's no context there.

18 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:19:52pm

re: #7 Merryweather

--snip--

Glenn Greenwald has the best take:

But the most important point here is that one either believes in the American system of justice or one does not. When a reviled defendant is acquitted in court, and torture-obtained evidence is excluded, that isn't proof that the justice system is broken; it's proof that it works. A "justice system" which guarantees convictions -- or which allows the Government to rely on evidence extracted from torture -- isn't a justice system at all, by definition. The New Yorker's Amy Davidson made this point quite well today:

Let’s be clear: if time in the extra-judicial limbo of black sites, and the torture that caused some evidence to be excluded, makes prosecutors’ jobs harder, the problem is with the black sites and the torture, and not with the civilian trials that might eventually not work out quite the way everyone likes. It’s a point that bears some repeating. Our legal system is not a machine for producing the maximum number of convictions, regardless of the law. Jurors are watching the government, too, as well they should. Ghailani today could be anyone tomorrow.

--snip--

19 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:22:27pm

re: #18 Talking Point Detective

What is that snipped from? Gotta link?

20 theheat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:23:01pm

re: #15 CuriousLurker

She handles stress soooooo well.

21 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:23:26pm

re: #19 wrenchwench

[Link: www.philly.com...]

22 Merryweather  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:23:33pm

re: #18 Talking Point Detective

Greenwald's hit the nail on the head there. When he's on fire, he's a must-read. A lot of the time though he drives me nuts with his tendency to go for hyperbole and personal attacks.

23 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:25:35pm

OT - I mentioned before that I've been doing some work on a feature to "promote" LGF Pages to the front page. But as I started doing the coding I realized there are some issues that make it more difficult than I first envisioned. That's why it hasn't happened yet - but I am still working on it.

24 RadicalModerate  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:25:43pm

How crazy is it with the righwingers regarding this?

Michael Goldfarb, current Sarah Palin advisor:

Palin Adviser Wanted Execution Without Trial For Convicted Terrorist Ahmed Ghailani

Yet some have taken the opportunity to take the issue a bit further. On Twitter yesterday, Michael Goldfarb, former McCain presidential campaign flack and current adviser to former governor Sarah Palin, said that Ghailani should have been executed while in CIA custody:

"Ghailani never should have been allowed to leave that CIA black site with a pulse."

Maybe Goldfarb has taken Glenn Beck’s advice a little too seriously. The radical Fox News host once said that as President, he wouldn’t detain terror suspects, he’d “shoot them all in the head.” Perhaps Goldfarb is an avid National Review reader, where one write once said that all Gitmo detainees should be let go and then killed. Or maybe Goldfarb has been listening to his former boss over at the Weekly Standard, Bill Kristol, who said last year of Maj. Nidal M. Hasan after his attack on the Fort Hood Army Base: “They should just go ahead and convict him and put him to death.”

It seems execution without trial is fairly popular in conservative circles.

25 Tigger2  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:26:54pm

re: #21 Talking Point Detective

[Link: www.philly.com...]


A step in the right direction.

26 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:29:25pm

//So will be the first to step up and say this is Obama's fault?

27 Merryweather  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:29:29pm

re: #16 cliffster

get life in prison and probably not a very pleasant one at that. but multiple life sentences served consecutively sends a message, man.

The point of the justice system isn't to 'send a message', it's to administer justice, and hand down punishments worthy of the crime(s) a person is convicted of. Which it will do here.

28 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:30:30pm

re: #26 jamesfirecat

//So will be the first to step up and say this is Obama's fault?

I'll wait til after the KSM trial to pass judgment

29 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:30:31pm

re: #25 Tigger2

A step in the right direction.


I'm walkin' in the same direction I always was. It takes too much energy to change course.

30 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:30:42pm

The wingnuts don't care for justice.
They want blood.

31 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:30:46pm

re: #24 RadicalModerate

How crazy is it with the righwingers regarding this?

Michael Goldfarb, current Sarah Palin advisor:

Palin Adviser Wanted Execution Without Trial For Convicted Terrorist Ahmed Ghailani

"Ghailani never should have been allowed to leave that CIA black site with a pulse."

Stalin would be proud. It was his tactics. Documents show that he personally ordered the assassination of Solomon Mikhoels, he suspected him of being in cahoots with "Zionists". No trial, no nothing. Just intelligence service agents liquidating the "enemy of the people", the great actor and human being.

32 Amory Blaine  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:30:52pm

This is the United States Justice System. If not this then what?

33 theheat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:30:54pm

re: #24 RadicalModerate

No respect for the law, evidence, or human rights whatsoever. It's no wonder Palin would gravitate to someone like that. She already had a klukker-friendly book editor. Big surprise.

34 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:31:03pm

re: #15 CuriousLurker

I apologize for going OT so early in the thread, but I couldn't resist. It looks like Caribou Barbie is getting ready to have another hissy fit:

[Link: twitter.com...]

Heh. Here's one of those "out of context excerpts" that she's complaining about.

35 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:31:34pm

re: #22 Merryweather

Greenwald's hit the nail on the head there. When he's on fire, he's a must-read. A lot of the time though he drives me nuts with his tendency to go for hyperbole and personal attacks.

Agreed.

36 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:31:44pm

re: #27 Merryweather

The point of the justice system isn't to 'send a message', it's to administer justice, and hand down punishments worthy of the crime(s) a person is convicted of. Which it will do here.

administering justice sends a message regardless of hair splitting semantics

37 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:31:54pm

re: #27 Merryweather

In fact, the way our justice system is set up-- the way any justice system that's at all ethical is set up-- it invariably means that a certain number of guilty people will go free. It will happen. Because humans are fallible, because evidence isn't always available. It will happen. Making it happen as few times as possible is a good goal; pretending that there would be a way for every guilty person to be convicted is foolish.

38 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:32:10pm

re: #24 RadicalModerate

I'm speechless. And that takes quite a bit of doing.

39 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:32:19pm

re: #27 Merryweather

The point of the justice system isn't to 'send a message', it's to administer justice, and hand down punishments worthy of the crime(s) a person is convicted of. Which it will do here.

It also is to provide deterrence--which is better served by life in an infidel jail than by a judicial or extra-judicial martyrdom.

40 theheat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:32:44pm

re: #34 Slumbering Behemoth

Did you ever wonder where the producers of American Idol come up with the seemingly endless supply of people who can’t sing but are deluded enough to get up in front of a national television audience and screech out a song anyway?

Given her daughter has less grace than a Clydesdale on another reality TV show, I think Sarah might want to take a little STFU moment here. Buy a vowel or something.

41 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:32:53pm

re: #32 Amory Blaine

This is the United States Justice System. If not this then what?

///The Japanese Justice System?

OBJECTION!

42 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:33:01pm

re: #30 Varek Raith

The wingnuts don't care for justice.
They want blood.

And I hear tell, you don't want to share. ;P
/

43 Merryweather  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:34:03pm

re: #24 RadicalModerate

Jesus Christ. Goldfarb's arguing for summary executions? Keep. This. Man. Away. From. Power.

44 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:34:05pm

re: #37 Obdicut

In fact, the way our justice system is set up-- the way any justice system that's at all ethical is set up-- it invariably means that a certain number of guilty people will go free. It will happen. Because humans are fallible, because evidence isn't always available. It will happen. Making it happen as few times as possible is a good goal; pretending that there would be a way for every guilty person to be convicted is foolish.

What's more disturbing is the number of innocent people who end up being found guilty, doubly so when it is a serious crime...

45 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:34:11pm

re: #28 albusteve

I'll wait til after the KSM trial to pass judgment

How is the outcome of this trial relevant to the KSM trial?

This guy was a minor cog in a terrorist system. KSM was a honcho. Do you really think there is some linkage - that something from this trial is going to tell you something about what's going to happen with KSM?

Do you even know that it being in a civilian court affected the outcome as compared to a military tribunal?

46 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:34:43pm

Gee, if the evidence was rock solid, I doubt he'd only be convicted of one count.
Oh, that's right!
He was probably tortured. Yep, that sure as hell provides the truth.
Yes sirree!

47 Tigger2  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:35:02pm

re: #29 Talking Point Detective

I'm walkin' in the same direction I always was. It takes too much energy to change course.


I like political discourse but the hate in that discourse has to go, I dont care which side it comes from it needs to go.

48 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:35:58pm

re: #43 Merryweather

Jesus Christ. Goldfarb's arguing for summary executions? Keep. This. Man. Away. From. Power.

it wouldn't be anything new...despicable maybe, but pretty old fashioned

49 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:36:07pm

Irony: Opponents of torture have long advocated applying the standards of the Army Field Manual to detainees. If those standards had been observed during this guy's detention, he would probably be facing a death sentence right now.

50 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:36:15pm

re: #17 Dreggas

re: #20 theheat

I'm pretty sure if she became president (God perish the though) the first thing she'd do is demand that the Constitution be amended to make criticizing or questioning the president an offense punishable by imprisonment for the entire time she's (or any other wingnut) is in office.

Naturally, it wouldn't apply to Dem presidents because, y'know, they deserve every bit of criticism that gets heaped on them.

51 Merryweather  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:36:18pm

re: #37 Obdicut

In fact, the way our justice system is set up-- the way any justice system that's at all ethical is set up-- it invariably means that a certain number of guilty people will go free. It will happen. Because humans are fallible, because evidence isn't always available. It will happen. Making it happen as few times as possible is a good goal; pretending that there would be a way for every guilty person to be convicted is foolish.

Having been a victim of crime myself, who had to watch the perpetrator walk free after being acquitted by a jury, I know this only too well. But I wouldn't have it any other way than 'innocent till proven guilty'.

52 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:36:55pm

F***.... I saw someone else post a good bioshock clip on a live journal page I read and I instantly started looking for the upding button...

53 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:37:14pm

re: #47 Tigger2

I like political discourse but the hate in that discourse has to go, I dont care which side it comes from it needs to go.

Agreed. Please point out when you find hate in my discourse.

54 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:37:16pm

re: #45 Talking Point Detective

How is the outcome of this trial relevant to the KSM trial?

This guy was a minor cog in a terrorist system. KSM was a honcho. Do you really think there is some linkage - that something from this trial is going to tell you something about what's going to happen with KSM?

Do you even know that it being in a civilian court affected the outcome as compared to a military tribunal?

I didn't say it was...

55 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:37:33pm

re: #44 jamesfirecat

What's more disturbing is the number of innocent people who end up being found guilty, doubly so when it is a serious crime...

Agreed, I worked in a prison one summer. They were all innocent. Every darn one of them. That's what they said. A real travesty.

56 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:37:42pm

re: #52 jamesfirecat

F***... I saw someone else post a good bioshock clip on a live journal page I read and I instantly started looking for the upding button...

Ha! I do that sort of thing all the time. LGF has spoiled me.

57 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:37:44pm

re: #52 jamesfirecat

F***... I saw someone else post a good bioshock clip on a live journal page I read and I instantly started looking for the upding button...

I do that to.
Where the hell's the upding buttons???
Oh...
...
..
.
:)

58 prairiefire  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:38:58pm

You go to trail with the federal prosecutors you have, not the ones you wished you had, to paraphrase Rumsfield.
Defense and legal experts came out against "enhanced interrogation techniques" early in the "War on Terror" precisely because of the legal outcome arrived at from this trail.

59 Bubblehead II  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:39:05pm

Time to call it a night, It has been a interesting day. Much to think upon. Thanks for the mind fodder.

60 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:39:06pm

re: #43 Merryweather

Jesus Christ. Goldfarb's arguing for summary executions? Keep. This. Man. Away. From. Power.

Yep, plenty of precedence there, much of it from people who ended being lawfully hanged as war criminals.

61 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:39:10pm

re: #55 The Shadow Do

Agreed, I worked in a prison one summer. They were all innocent. Every darn one of them. That's what they said. A real travesty.

long time no see

62 theheat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:40:00pm

re: #50 CuriousLurker

re: #20 theheat

I'm pretty sure if she became president (God perish the though) the first thing she'd do is demand that the Constitution be amended to make criticizing or questioning the president an offense punishable by imprisonment for the entire time she's (or any other wingnut) is in office.

No, it would be a straight cut-n-paste from the Bible. No more Constitution necessary. And blasphemers, homos, unbelievers, and other ne'er-do-wells could look forward to good old fashioned witch trials, like any other efficient theocracy.

63 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:40:19pm

re: #54 albusteve

I didn't say it was...

Fair enough.

64 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:40:56pm

re: #61 albusteve

long time no see

Been through a month or two of personal hell. You too I know.
My bride of 29 years decided she had had enough of my gnarly self.
Hope you are doing well.

65 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:42:22pm

re: #64 The Shadow Do

Been through a month or two of personal hell. You too I know.
My bride of 29 years decided she had had enough of my gnarly self.
Hope you are doing well.

I'm fine....but I'm sad to hear your news

66 theheat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:42:43pm

re: #55 The Shadow Do

Agreed, I worked in a prison one summer. They were all innocent. Every darn one of them. That's what they said. A real travesty.

So not funny, if that was your intent. Innocent people really have spent their lives in prison, to be released years later when evidence proves their innocence. They don't get all those years back, or all the grief and anguish the duration of their sentence.

67 3eff Jeff  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:42:45pm

re: #48 albusteve

it wouldn't be anything new...despicable maybe, but pretty old fashioned

Of course it's an old fashioned value. It is exactly the kind of old fashioned value the Founding Fathers were trying to keep out of their new nation.

68 Tigger2  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:43:05pm

re: #53 Talking Point Detective

Agreed. Please point out when you find hate in my discourse.


Nothing to do with you, I am talking about talk radio and cable news.

69 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:43:14pm

In regard to fiascos there is an interesting historical precedent. In the Malmedy massacre trials many sentences were commuted because interrogators used a lot of dirty tricks, like mock trials. Maybe even some sorts of torture, though it's not definitely proven. So because of such tactics many Nazis escaped just punishment.

70 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:43:45pm

re: #34 Slumbering Behemoth

Heh. Here's one of those "out of context excerpts" that she's complaining about.

*snort* The funny thing is that what they're using for a rebuttal on the Conservatives4Plain site is a snark-laden excerpt from her book where she says what whiny, spoiled cry babies they are when they get criticized. Um, Sarah? Look in the mirror, hon.

71 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:44:39pm

re: #68 Tigger2

Nothing to do with you, I am talking about talk radio and cable news.

Gotcha. Being a bit touchy.

72 lostlakehiker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:44:52pm

re: #10 Talking Point Detective

Aside from that whole little torture detail, I'm still wondering whether or not anyone has any actual evidence that the outcome of the trial would have been different if this had been a military tribunal.

We know that effectively, the outcome would have been no different in that if he spends the rest of his life in jail, more convictions wouldn't have resulted in a greater impact on his life.

But would he have really been convicted on more counts had the venue been different? Does anyone actually know that to be the case?

I mean, it's not like the rightwing is using this as a club, by exploiting issues of national security, to bash Obama. They'd never do that.

He'd have been convicted on most counts. The evidence was complete and convincing. But the way we caught on to where to look and who to ask was tainted, so out the evidence went.

The whole lot of Gitmo prisoners will enjoy the same luxury of having most of the evidence thrown out. If we proceed with civilian trials, many will be entirely acquitted.

War crimes trials, such as the Nuremburg trials, proceed under different rules than regular trials. By the standards of the U.S. constitution, those proceedings were completely illicit. For starters, the crimes for which they were tried were not on our books at the time they were committed.

Sometimes, and Nuremburg is a good example, you just have to proceed from first principles. Mass murder is inexcusable and those who commit it should be punished.

73 theheat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:44:55pm

re: #70 CuriousLurker

She folds like a tent. Every time. It's like throwing a cat in the bathtub, standing back, and watching it freak out.

74 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:45:59pm

re: #55 The Shadow Do

Agreed, I worked in a prison one summer. They were all innocent. Every darn one of them. That's what they said. A real travesty.

A man was executed in Texas under George W. Bush who DNA testing later proved innocent.

F*** you for making light of the state sanctioned killing of an innocent man.

75 3eff Jeff  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:46:32pm

re: #73 theheat

She folds like a tent. Every time. It's like throwing a cat in the bathtub, standing back, and watching it freak out.

No, it's more like my cats. They jump into the bathtub on their own, and then freak out because they couldn't tell there was water there. Even though they'd been watching it fill up.

76 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:46:47pm

re: #66 theheat

So not funny, if that was your intent. Innocent people really have spent their lives in prison, to be released years later when evidence proves their innocence. They don't get all those years back, or all the grief and anguish the duration of their sentence.

Yes it happens but this is pretty sensational news when it comes to light. Very rare in my opinion. There is also a good deal of grief and anguish when the perps are walked as well for what that is worth.

77 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:46:52pm

re: #62 theheat

No, it would be a straight cut-n-paste from the Bible. No more Constitution necessary. And blasphemers, homos, unbelievers, and other ne'er-do-wells could look forward to good old fashioned witch trials, like any other efficient theocracy.

Yeah, "The Handmaid's Tale" redux. *shudder*

78 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:46:59pm

re: #74 jamesfirecat

A man was executed in Texas under George W. Bush who DNA testing later proved innocent.

F*** you for making light of the state sanctioned killing of an innocent man.

he didn't

79 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:47:06pm

"That it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer"

Bet you won't see that on a protest sign hovering above a tricorner hat.

/gawt-damn those founding fathers
//

80 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:47:21pm

re: #71 Talking Point Detective

Gotcha. Being a bit touchy.

Needs more scar tissue.

81 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:47:38pm

re: #72 lostlakehiker

He'd have been convicted on most counts. The evidence was complete and convincing. But the way we caught on to where to look and who to ask was tainted, so out the evidence went.

Source? Specific to this case?

82 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:47:42pm

re: #72 lostlakehiker

He'd have been convicted on most counts. The evidence was complete and convincing. But the way we caught on to where to look and who to ask was tainted, so out the evidence went.

The whole lot of Gitmo prisoners will enjoy the same luxury of having most of the evidence thrown out. If we proceed with civilian trials, many will be entirely acquitted.

War crimes trials, such as the Nuremburg trials, proceed under different rules than regular trials. By the standards of the U.S. constitution, those proceedings were completely illicit. For starters, the crimes for which they were tried were not on our books at the time they were committed.

Sometimes, and Nuremburg is a good example, you just have to proceed from first principles. Mass murder is inexcusable and those who commit it should be punished.

Did we waterboard the nazis?

83 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:48:22pm

re: #53 Talking Point Detective

Agreed. Please point out when you find hate in my discourse.

It's right there. I bolded it for easy finding. :P
/

84 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:48:43pm
In its report, the subcommittee acknowledged some facts, such as the mock trials, the use of hoods or containment. On the other hand, its findings did not support the most serious charges, like the beatings, torture, the fake hangings and the starvation of the defendants. Furthermore, it had completely rejected the allegations of Judge Van Roden.[citation needed]

In addition, the subcommittee considered that commutations of sentences pronounced by General Clay had occurred because of U.S. Army recognition that the investigations had not always been properly carried out or that procedural irregularities could have occurred during the trial.

On the other hand, the commission did not take a position on the culpability of the condemned. On the contrary, it endorsed the conclusions General Clay issued in the particular case of Lieutenant Christ. In summary, Clay had written that “he was personally convinced of the culpability of Christ and, that for this reason his death sentence was fully justified. But, to apply this sentence would be equivalent accepting a bad administration of justice, which led him, not without reserve, to commute the death penalty to life imprisonment”.[21]

Gen. Clay obviously loved Nazis and hated America!!1
///

85 cliffster  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:48:49pm

re: #64 The Shadow Do

Been through a month or two of personal hell. You too I know.
My bride of 29 years decided she had had enough of my gnarly self.
Hope you are doing well.

Wow, that's really bad news. Sorry to hear that.

86 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:49:06pm

Where's that lateralis twit now? heh

87 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:49:20pm

re: #83 Slumbering Behemoth

It's right there. I bolded it for easy finding. :P
/

Image: findX.jpg

88 RadicalModerate  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:49:46pm

re: #31 Sergey Romanov

Stalin would be proud. It was his tactics. Documents show that he personally ordered the assassination of Solomon Mikhoels, he suspected him of being in cahoots with "Zionists". No trial, no nothing. Just intelligence service agents liquidating the "enemy of the people", the great actor and human being.

Given that you were someone who likely had to live within the old Soviet Union's totalitarian regimes, the comparison you've given carries far much more weight than anything I could possibly contribute.

89 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:50:15pm

re: #83 Slumbering Behemoth

It's right there. I bolded it for easy finding. :P
/

Touché

90 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:50:41pm

re: #74 jamesfirecat

A man was executed in Texas under George W. Bush who DNA testing later proved innocent.

F*** you for making light of the state sanctioned killing of an innocent man.

As I understand it the evidence was hair that was attributed to the perp which was actually hair from the victim. While a key piece of evidence this does not equate to the man's innocence nor make Bush a murderer.
Any more than he already is of course.

91 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:50:58pm

re: #73 theheat

She folds like a tent. Every time. It's like throwing a cat in the bathtub, standing back, and watching it freak out.

I can't imagine what it's like to live with all the drama caused by every tiny pinprick to her paper thin skin. Gah!

92 Tigger2  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:51:10pm

re: #83 Slumbering Behemoth

It's right there. I bolded it for easy finding. :P
/


LOL

93 RadicalModerate  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:51:41pm

re: #74 jamesfirecat

A man was executed in Texas under George W. Bush who DNA testing later proved innocent.

F*** you for making light of the state sanctioned killing of an innocent man.

Don't forget about the second man who was executed in Texas under Rick Perry, even though evidence proved his innocence BEFORE the execution.

94 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:51:56pm

re: #85 cliffster

Wow, that's really bad news. Sorry to hear that.

Quite a surprise when announced on our anniversary. A week later the movers were in and I was taking her to the airport. This will take some getting over. Thanks.

95 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:51:59pm

re: #55 The Shadow Do

Agreed, I worked in a prison one summer. They were all innocent. Every darn one of them. That's what they said. A real travesty.

Because a guy who works in a prison for a summer apparently knows a lot about the intricacies of criminal law and DNA evidence, i guess!

Congratulations, you're the instant expert of the day

96 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:52:05pm

re: #88 RadicalModerate

Given that you were someone who likely had to live within the old Soviet Union's totalitarian regimes, the comparison you've given carries far much more weight than anything I could possibly contribute.

LOL, thanks. But post-Stalin regimes were rather vegetarian, compared to Stalin's.

97 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:52:11pm

re: #89 Talking Point Detective

re: #92 Tigger2

What can I say. I'm a goofball.

98 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:52:44pm

re: #91 CuriousLurker

I can't imagine what it's like to live with all the drama caused by every tiny pinprick to her paper thin skin. Gah!

you have your own drama via Palin...otherwise what's your point in posting her stupid tweets?....I know, you couldn't resist

99 cliffster  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:53:35pm

re: #97 Slumbering Behemoth

re: #92 Tigger2

What can I say. I'm a goofball.

You could say, "I'm a goofball"...

100 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:53:58pm

re: #98 albusteve

you have your own drama via Palin...otherwise what's your point in posting her stupid tweets?...I know, you couldn't resist

The same reason you like to ask why others post what they do?
It's because they can!
;P

101 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:54:05pm

re: #95 WindUpBird

Because a guy who works in a prison for a summer apparently knows a lot about the intricacies of criminal law and DNA evidence, i guess!

Congratulations, you're the instant expert of the day

No, just a trusting old soul. They said they were innocent so I guess that's so.

102 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:54:38pm

re: #97 Slumbering Behemoth

re: #92 Tigger2

What can I say. I'm a goofball.

Hey, it was funny. Goofball away.

103 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:54:39pm

re: #98 albusteve

She's thrown her hat in the political ring, and she is fair game. It's not like CL was talking about the Paris Hilton or something.

104 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:54:41pm

re: #90 The Shadow Do

As I understand it the evidence was hair that was attributed to the perp which was actually hair from the victim. While a key piece of evidence this does not equate to the man's innocence nor make Bush a murderer.
Any more than he already is of course.

It does not make Bush a murder no.

But Jesus wept, do you not have any compassion for a man who died for a man who died for a crime he never comitted?

Would it help if I dug up the other examples of when DNA evidence has proven men innocent of crimes only after they'd already been killed for them?

105 RadicalModerate  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:54:55pm

re: #96 Sergey Romanov

LOL, thanks. But post-Stalin regimes were rather vegetarian, compared to Stalin's.

True, but to me oppressive is oppressive, no matter whether the gloved hand whose thumb one is under is made of chainmail or of velvet.

106 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:55:19pm

re: #99 cliffster

You could say, "I'm a goofball"...

Touché redux

107 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:55:29pm

re: #103 Slumbering Behemoth

She's thrown her hat in the political ring, and she is fair game. It's not like CL was talking about the Paris Hilton or something.

AmIdol politics

108 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:56:48pm

re: #107 albusteve

AmIdol politics

That's Palin's game. Can't fault any Lizards for goofing on her for it.

109 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:56:52pm

re: #104 jamesfirecat

It does not make Bush a murder no.

But Jesus wept, do you not have any compassion for a man who died for a man who died for a crime he never comitted?

Would it help if I dug up the other examples of when DNA evidence has proven men innocent of crimes only after they'd already been killed for them?

It happens.

And again, the guy in question was not necessarily innocent. I don't have all the evidence presented at trial and I am guessing you don't either.

110 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:56:53pm

re: #104 jamesfirecat

Punishing people and exercising power over them will always be more satisfying to the American electorate

Facts, data, research, actual justice: difficult, intellectual, messy, hard to understand, hard to distill into sound bites, requires experts

vengeance, killing, weapons, jail, prosecution = easy to understand! Anyone can do it! Easy soundbites! Tough on crime! Get the bad guys! I saw Law & order, i know how this works!

111 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:57:10pm

re: #104 jamesfirecat

It does not make Bush a murder no.

But Jesus wept, do you not have any compassion for a man who died for a man who died for a crime he never comitted?

Would it help if I dug up the other examples of when DNA evidence has proven men innocent of crimes only after they'd already been killed for them?

whatever dude, still, everybody in jail is innocent....just ask them

112 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:58:01pm

re: #111 albusteve

whatever dude, still, everybody in jail is innocent...just ask them

They was framed!

113 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:58:03pm

re: #107 albusteve

AmIdol politics

that IS politics now. Our country wants politics to more closely resemble celebrity gossip and reality shows and media saturation, so that's what we get

If she becomes president, will you still complain when people here speak of her?

114 theheat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:58:04pm

re: #91 CuriousLurker

I know someone exactly like her, even looks a lot like her. Spends all her time convinced the world is against her, she's being demonized for her faith (she belongs to the same crazy church as Palin), she's functionally illiterate, makes up words that sound like familiar words she doesn't really know the meaning of, irrationally paranoid, obnoxious, deceitful, clever-but-not-smart, hard core fundie, beat her kids while praying (enough to have CPS come), dishonest as all get out, exaggerated practically everything to the point it was laughable, left the g's off the endings of words, would freak out until she literally had to be slapped upside the head to focus... need I go on? In any event, most of her days are spent chasing her tail because life, and everyone, are against her. Dumb, confused, and dangerous.

115 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:58:12pm

re: #109 The Shadow Do

It happens.

And again, the guy in question was not necessarily innocent. I don't have all the evidence presented at trial and I am guessing you don't either.


Would you shed a tear if I could find you proof of someone who was innocent and was killed?

116 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:58:54pm

re: #109 The Shadow Do

It happens.

And again, the guy in question was not necessarily innocent. I don't have all the evidence presented at trial and I am guessing you don't either.

Neither, apparently, did the prosecutors. Since that's what they used to condemn him to death.

117 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:58:56pm

re: #112 The Shadow Do

They was framed!

"Wait, he's innocent-innocent?" [Shawshank Redemption]

118 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:58:57pm

re: #112 The Shadow Do

They was framed!

The "compassionate conservative" ladies and gentlemen.

119 cliffster  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:59:10pm

re: #111 albusteve

whatever dude, still, everybody in jail is innocent...just ask them

ever seen Shawshank Redemption?

120 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:59:11pm

re: #114 theheat

I know someone exactly like her, even looks a lot like her. Spends all her time convinced the world is against her, she's being demonized for her faith (she belongs to the same crazy church as Palin), she's functionally illiterate, makes up words that sound like familiar words she doesn't really know the meaning of, irrationally paranoid, obnoxious, deceitful, clever-but-not-smart, hard core fundie, beat her kids while praying (enough to have CPS come), dishonest as all get out, exaggerated practically everything to the point it was laughable, left the g's off the endings of words, would freak out until she literally had to be slapped upside the head to focus... need I go on? In any event, most of her days are spent chasing her tail because life, and everyone, are against her. Dumb, confused, and dangerous.

God damn!

121 engineer cat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:59:17pm

i wonder if there is some limiting factor as to how much more ignorant, lying, and immoral the GOP can become

probably not

122 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:59:19pm

re: #109 The Shadow Do

It's true that he wasn't necessarily innocent. However, that piece of evidence-- and the testimony of the other person who is more likely to actually have committed the crime-- was the only proof of his guilt.

"It happens" is a rather blasé response to, most likely, the wrong man being executed. Remember: this means that the actual murderer was not punished for the murder. Isn't that important?

123 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 3:59:44pm

re: #93 RadicalModerate

Don't forget about the second man who was executed in Texas under Rick Perry, even though evidence proved his innocence BEFORE the execution.

There is also the case of Timothy Cole here in Lubbock. He wasn't executed but he died in prison after serving 15 years for a crime he did not commit. The hell of it is, the evidence for the exoneration started to surface while Tim was still alive and was systematically suppressed and ignored for years.

124 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:00:50pm

re: #98 albusteve

you have your own drama via Palin...otherwise what's your point in posting her stupid tweets?...I know, you couldn't resist

Exactly, thanks for pointing that out in case anyone missed it. There's one teensy little difference though—I'm not claiming to be fit to run for POTUS.

125 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:00:59pm

It happens?
Terrorism.
Meh, it happens.
Cartel violence.
Meh, it happens.

126 theheat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:01:00pm

re: #120 WindUpBird

Honest to goodness - scout's honor - when I first saw Palin, I knew exactly what she was because I know someone just like her. And I wasn't wrong. Not one bit.

127 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:01:14pm

re: #116 Varek Raith

Neither, apparently, did the prosecutors. Since that's what they used to condemn him to death.

Yeah, but that's all paperwork.

You know how those eggheads are. What we need is a tough guy with a buzzcut to get some bad guys. And then scream off in the General lee. Yee-hah!

128 Political Atheist  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:01:57pm

re: #23 Charles

Got a call from a new lizard pal. Mikiesmoky2.
I tried to walk him through adding the bookmarklet to his toolbar. But when I try to drag the bookmarklet up to the favorites bar it does not work. Firefox works, as does Chrome.

Is this just an IE8 issue? Any suggested workarounds (rather than just using "create a page") ?

129 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:02:06pm

re: #125 Varek Raith

It happens?
Terrorism.
Meh, it happens.
Cartel violence.
Meh, it happens.

Being raped and locked in a shipping container? it happens

Destroying our financial system? it happens

Crash some planes into buildings? it happens

130 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:02:44pm

re: #113 WindUpBird

that IS politics now. Our country wants politics to more closely resemble celebrity gossip and reality shows and media saturation, so that's what we get

If she becomes president, will you still complain when people here speak of her?

maybe, if I survive...I dislike hate fests regardless who the victim is...speaking on an issue is one thing, following her around to find dirt in her tweets is beneath me

131 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:02:59pm

re: #126 theheat

Honest to goodness - scout's honor - when I first saw Palin, I knew exactly what she was because I know someone just like her. And I wasn't wrong. Not one bit.

Oh man, that must be the most eerie feeling ever. :D

I KNOW HER DOPPLEGANGER, AHHH

132 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:03:02pm

re: #115 jamesfirecat

Would you shed a tear if I could find you proof of someone who was innocent and was killed?

No, but I would feel sorry for that person for sure.

133 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:03:20pm

re: #114 theheat

Yikes!

134 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:03:22pm

Being so blasé about executing innocents is the primary reason why I'm against the death penalty.
So many people don't seem to give a shit.

135 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:03:33pm

re: #119 cliffster

ever seen Shawshank Redemption?

yes, excellent movie....even the hero was innocent, remember?

136 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:04:03pm

re: #116 Varek Raith

Neither, apparently, did the prosecutors. Since that's what they used to condemn him to death.

You assume the hair evidence was malicious. If it had been from a third party I would have more sympathy.

137 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:04:11pm

re: #125 Varek Raith

It happens?
Terrorism.
Meh, it happens.
Cartel violence.
Meh, it happens.

A few years ago, there was a popular bumper sticker that said "Shit Happens."
I always had a secret fantasy about seeing some vandal walk up to one of these, knock the windshield out with a ball bat, then shrug at the owner and say, "Hey, shit happens."

138 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:04:46pm

re: #136 The Shadow Do

You assume the hair evidence was malicious. If it had been from a third party I would have more sympathy.

You don't seem to have any sympathy at all for a man who clearly there was "reasonable" doubt about the fact that he committed the crime after more evidence came to light...

139 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:05:25pm

re: #134 Varek Raith

Being so blasé about executing innocents is the primary reason why I'm against the death penalty.
So many people don't seem to give a shit.

Yep. The only execution I cheer is that of the Nazis. And even then they should've been the last to be executed.

140 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:05:42pm

re: #130 albusteve

maybe, if I survive...I dislike hate fests regardless who the victim is...speaking on an issue is one thing, following her around to find dirt in her tweets is beneath me

I just don't know the difference between someone's statements on the internet and someone's statements in front of cameras on television. it's still their statements! Especially since she seems to exert a great deal of influence over the GOP in ways that the GOP brass seems afraid of.

If it's on the internet, does it no longer count? twitter is a significant enough medium that it was used to coordinate a near-uprising in Iran.

141 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:05:43pm

re: #124 CuriousLurker

Booya! Slam dunk!

142 Political Atheist  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:05:44pm

re: #44 jamesfirecat

What's more disturbing is the number of innocent people who end up being found guilty, doubly so when it is a serious crime...

How often does that happen?

143 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:06:50pm

re: #136 The Shadow Do

You assume the hair evidence was malicious. If it had been from a third party I would have more sympathy.

Bottom line, if that evidence was in the courtroom, this guy would still be alive

144 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:07:05pm

re: #142 Rightwingconspirator

How often does that happen?

The genius of it is we don't get to know :)

145 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:07:41pm

re: #138 jamesfirecat

You don't seem to have any sympathy at all for a man who clearly there was "reasonable" doubt about the fact that he committed the crime after more evidence came to light...

Again, I don't know what all was presented at trial. I am agnostic on this case.

146 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:07:46pm

re: #70 CuriousLurker

*snort* The funny thing is that what they're using for a rebuttal on the Conservatives4Plain site is a snark-laden excerpt from her book where she says what whiny, spoiled cry babies they are when they get criticized. Um, Sarah? Look in the mirror, hon.

Sarah, like all bullies who know they are pathetic losers, fronts tough, but has that thin skin because they know that on the inside, they got nothing. They whine like bitches when you even hint they are less than perfect. An actual discussion of their many many failures sends them into conniptions.

So just for the fun of it, I write the following:

Dear Sarah,

Sarah, you are possibly the dumbest person I have ever seen in my lifetime run for major office. That is saying a ot given your competition. You are a craven opportunist who ran out on her own people. You have a reputation for being a cutting, lying, vindictive, backstabbing bitch in your own party, and as those investigations you ran from would have shown.

Your education is lacking by the standards of a competent 5th grader. Everything about you is a fraud and you were only ever thrust into office because the powers that be thought you were a balance to Hillary. You exist as a political entity because you own breasts and Rupert Murdoch sells your body, the same way he sells every other air headed slut he has on Fox.

And let's get real. You are getting older. Those breasts of yours have got to be sagging a bit. Most ladies have other assets than that. Most ladies are so much more than their bodies. For you though, this must be a threat. Because let's face it, that is your only asset, and it is far outclassed by many who are younger and prettier. Everything else you have is a fraud or a lie full of no accomplishments you earned. You were made by others into what you are today and you are ambitious enough to run with it and think it is yours.

Don't even get me started on your odious throwback values or the fact that you have never had an ideal of your own in your life. Well other than Sarah comes first of course.

Yours, with utter contempt,
Ludwig

147 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:08:55pm

re: #142 Rightwingconspirator

How often does that happen?

More often than it should, because it has can be proven to have happened at all...

148 RadicalModerate  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:08:57pm

re: #142 Rightwingconspirator

How often does that happen?

Far, far too often.

[Link: www.innocenceproject.org...]

149 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:09:07pm

re: #130 albusteve

No one is "following her around" Mr. Crankypants. Palin's the one shoving her ass into public view.

150 theheat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:09:13pm

re: #146 LudwigVanQuixote

Write it in Sharpie.

151 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:09:18pm

re: #143 WindUpBird

Bottom line, if that evidence was in the courtroom, this guy would still be alive

Not necessarily. It was a mistake obviously. This is pre DNA. If they were going to plant a hair would it have been from the victim? Perspective folks.

152 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:10:16pm

re: #150 theheat

Write it in Sharpie.

LOL

153 theheat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:10:32pm

re: #149 Slumbering Behemoth

Yeah, for a family that says their privacy's invaded, they already have two reality TV gigs to pimp, and Palin may want to run for POTUS. It's full metal idiocy.

154 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:10:37pm

re: #145 The Shadow Do

Again, I don't know what all was presented at trial. I am agnostic on this case.

If you are agnostic on the case than maybe you shouldn't continue to argue about how there was still a chance he was guilty.

In our justice system if you are "agnostic' or have no opinion then the default must shift to 'innocent"

155 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:10:38pm

re: #136 The Shadow Do

also, here's a thing I'm explaining to you:

PEOPLE ARE FOUND NOT GUILTY.

Not "innocent". State doesn't find people innocent, because that makes no sense. Innocent until proven guilty. That's not a Burger King slogan! it actually means a real tangible, incredibly important truth about how our system has to function.

The state has to prove a guy GUILTY. They didn't actually do that, but they killed him anyway!

I'm glad I expect more from America than you do

156 Four More Tears  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:10:53pm

Who does the Right hate more: the terrorists or the Left?

157 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:10:56pm

re: #130 albusteve

maybe, if I survive...I dislike hate fests regardless who the victim is...speaking on an issue is one thing, following her around to find dirt in her tweets is beneath me

Seriously? Hate fests? Victim? If you tweet something and post about it on your web site, it's because you want it to be seen by millions of people. It''s not as if people are following her around in trench coats.

158 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:11:22pm

Just a reminder...

The execution of wrongfully convicted persons can and happened under both Democrat or Republican administrations.

159 Political Atheist  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:11:28pm

re: #144 WindUpBird

No so. Not at all, or DNA would not matter, and no one would have been released. I heard 200+ people had been exonerated via DNA. What they really failed to report (spin zone starts right here) was how many convictions had happened in that period of time in that state.

Is it ten percent? One percent? A minuscule fraction of a percent?

160 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:11:52pm

re: #149 Slumbering Behemoth

No one is "following her around" Mr. Crankypants. Palin's the one shoving her ass into public view.

I don't even watch Tv anymore besides like two shows on on-demand, and even my comedy radio I listen to, she's often times part of their news hour. Inescapable!

161 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:11:52pm

re: #158 researchok

Just a reminder...

The execution of wrongfully convicted persons can and happened under both Democrat or Republican administrations.

Yeah, but so much more often in Texas and other red states.

162 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:12:15pm

re: #157 CuriousLurker

Seriously? Hate fests? Victim? If you tweet something and post about it on your web site, it's because you want it to be seen by millions of people. It''s not as if people are following her around in trench coats.

what you do is your business...and hers

163 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:12:17pm

re: #158 researchok

Just a reminder...

The execution of wrongfully convicted persons can and happened under both Democrat or Republican administrations.

///Yes but on this thread only Democrats seem to care when it happens.

(Too harsh I know...)

164 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:12:31pm

re: #154 jamesfirecat

If you are agnostic on the case than maybe you shouldn't continue to argue about how there was still a chance he was guilty.

In our justice system if you are "agnostic' or have no opinion then the default must shift to 'innocent"

My default is I dunno

165 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:12:39pm

re: #156 JasonA

Who does the Right hate more: the terrorists or the Left?

I hate terrorists more, obviously. But I'm beginning to suspect that the party which presumes to represent my interests hates the left more.

166 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:12:47pm

re: #163 jamesfirecat

///Yes but on this thread only Democrats seem to care when it happens.

(Too harsh I know...)

NO pretty damn true really.

167 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:12:50pm

re: #158 researchok

Just a reminder...

The execution of wrongfully convicted persons can and happened under both Democrat or Republican administrations.

WHAT?...are you positive?

168 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:13:02pm

re: #136 The Shadow Do

You assume the hair evidence was malicious. If it had been from a third party I would have more sympathy.

This makes no sense at all, as the victim's own hair was readily available to rule out the sample used to convict the suspect. The test was available prior to execution, Bush campaigned on the importance of DNA testing, a request for testing was sent to his office yet the test was never run.

169 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:13:58pm

re: #159 Rightwingconspirator

No so. Not at all, or DNA would not matter, and no one would have been released. I heard 200+ people had been exonerated via DNA. What they really failed to report (spin zone starts right here) was how many convictions had happened in that period of time in that state.

Is it ten percent? One percent? A minuscule fraction of a percent?

My point is "we don't get to know" means this= there's way more cases to check out with DNA evidence than we will ever have the resources to examine. Not that people aren't bringing some of these cases to light. But that there's just too much work.

170 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:14:17pm

re: #168 goddamnedfrank

This makes no sense at all, as the victim's own hair was readily available to rule out the sample used to convict the suspect. The test was available prior to execution, Bush campaigned on the importance of DNA testing, a request for testing was sent to his office yet the test was never run.

His request for a stay to test the hair was denied.

171 engineer cat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:14:19pm

i have to say, i'm not able to really follow the thread because i am still utterly shocked and traumatized after watching barton and shimkus

172 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:14:37pm

re: #164 The Shadow Do

My default is I dunno

If you are "dunno" about if someone comitted a crime, and you're on the jury, what vote do you hand in?

173 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:14:57pm

re: #171 engineer dog

i have to say, i'm not able to really follow the thread because i am still utterly shocked and traumatized after watching barton and shimkus

Stop the wind, man!

174 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:15:04pm

re: #162 albusteve

what you do is your business...and hers

funny, she seems to be making it our business by endorsing senate races


I'd say when you're endorsing senate races and run run for VP and you're all over politics and all over TV and all over radio, you don't GET your own business. You're a public figure.

175 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:15:06pm

re: #161 LudwigVanQuixote

Yeah, but so much more often in Texas and other red states.

True- because they execute more frequently.

That's why I'm against the death penalty- too many opportunities for too many things to go wrong.

176 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:15:10pm

re: #168 goddamnedfrank

This makes no sense at all, as the victim's own hair was readily available to rule out the sample used to convict the suspect. The test was available prior to execution, Bush campaigned on the importance of DNA testing, a request for testing was sent to his office yet the test was never run.

It may just be that there was enough evidence without the damn hair. That is the part that is unreported.

177 Merryweather  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:15:11pm

OT, but LGBT activist and discharged soldier Dan Choi thinks Obama is the worst President ever for LGBT people because he hasn't repealed DADT (signed by Bill Clinton), DOMA (signed by Bill Clinton) yet. And something about AIDS, even though he put forward $4 billion to the Global Fund to Fight AIDS. And you know, Bush pushed for an amendment to the freaking Constitution to ban gay marriage, but Obama is still worse because he's privately against gay marriage.

I swear Obama Derangement Syndrome on the left is even more annoying than it is on the right.

178 Political Atheist  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:15:13pm

re: #158 researchok

Partisans only see half the problem. :)

"Under George Bush" is often meant to imply negligence or malice on his part. Of course he just failed to commute the sentence or decline the death warrant. The rest was the justice system. 99% system 1% GWB. That's the reality. I expect DNA to be critical for convicting and exonerating thousands as the years pass. Then one distant day we will get even better technology than DNA and do this all over again. As we should.

May as well say under the American Justice System. Just as accurate. But far less appealing to the most devout critics of GWB.

179 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:15:15pm

re: #162 albusteve

what you do is your business...and hers

You are commenting on something Curious Lurker said publicly on LGF.
Curious Lurker was commenting on something Palin said publicly on twitter.

Will not the god of Irony awaken from it's slumber?

180 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:15:18pm

re: #171 engineer dog

i have to say, i'm not able to really follow the thread because i am still utterly shocked and traumatized after watching barton and shimkus

heh..have a cookie and relax....it will pass

181 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:15:44pm

re: #171 engineer dog

i have to say, i'm not able to really follow the thread because i am still utterly shocked and traumatized after watching barton and shimkus

is there a transcript? The idiocy is so much easier to handle when i don't see their dumb heads mouthing the words

182 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:15:44pm

re: #162 albusteve

what you do is your business...and hers

I don't know what that means exactly, but okay!

183 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:16:00pm

re: #167 albusteve

WHAT?...are you positive?

LOL...yup.

It is inevitable that sooner or later, a state with the death penalty will get it wrong.

184 Gus  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:16:16pm

re: #162 albusteve

what you do is your business...and hers

Well that would be a first Steve. Sarah Palin is a public figure. She is promoting herself daily and those venues are not limited to: Facebook, Twitter, Fox News, that reality show of hers, constant mentions in a variety of different news outlets. In fact, she is probably the most public figure on the American landscape exceeding that of Britney Spears. However, unlike Spears, Palin speaks in a way that shows her intent to eventually affect our lives as a political figure.

185 Political Atheist  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:16:36pm

re: #147 jamesfirecat

One is too many. But do we expect literal perfection? Not going to happen. Unless we allow nearly all the culpable to walk.

186 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:16:46pm

re: #174 WindUpBird

funny, she seems to be making it our business by endorsing senate races

I'd say when you're endorsing senate races and run run for VP and you're all over politics and all over TV and all over radio, you don't GET your own business. You're a public figure.

whatever, I'm totally disinterested....my failure is to understand why others are so absorbed with this woman...

187 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:16:52pm

re: #178 Rightwingconspirator

Partisans only see half the problem. :)

"Under George Bush" is often meant to imply negligence or malice on his part. Of course he just failed to commute the sentence or decline the death warrant. The rest was the justice system. 99% system 1% GWB. That's the reality. I expect DNA to be critical for convicting and exonerating thousands as the years pass. Then one distant day we will get even better technology than DNA and do this all over again. As we should.

May as well say under the American Justice System. Just as accurate. But far less appealing to the most devout critics of GWB.

Agreed, i couldn't care less about Bush regarding this, it's a systemic problem.

I'm very VERy against the political power prosecutors have in this country :( That conserns me. Bush's influence on that case concerns me not at all.

188 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:17:01pm

re: #181 WindUpBird

is there a transcript? The idiocy is so much easier to handle when i don't see their dumb heads mouthing the words

Here, thanks to Walter.

Wind is God's way of balancing heat. Wind is the way you shift heat from areas where it's hotter to areas where it's cooler. That's what wind is. Wouldn't it be ironic if in the interest of global warming we mandated massive switches to energy, which is a finite resource, which slows the winds down, which causes the temperature to go up? Now, I'm not saying that's going to happen, Mr. Chairman, but that is definitely something on the massive scale. I mean, it does make some sense. You stop something, you can't transfer that heat, and the heat goes up. It's just something to think about.
189 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:17:02pm

re: #172 jamesfirecat

If you are "dunno" about if someone comitted a crime, and you're on the jury, what vote do you hand in?

If the only evidence was this non-evidence I would encourage the prosecutor to find a new line of work, vote not guilty and take my ten dollars for the day.

190 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:17:22pm

re: #182 CuriousLurker

I don't know what that means exactly, but okay!

It means he's sick of us liberals :D

191 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:18:02pm

re: #182 CuriousLurker

I don't know what that means exactly, but okay!

It's okay.
You get used to his "charm".

192 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:18:32pm

re: #185 Rightwingconspirator

One is too many. But do we expect literal perfection? Not going to happen. Unless we allow nearly all the culpable to walk.

We don't expect legal perfection, but I expect legal competence.

Denying a man a DNA test when much of the case rested on said item is not legal competence....

193 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:18:33pm

re: #183 researchok

LOL...yup.

It is inevitable that sooner or later, a state with the death penalty will get it wrong.

Which is why it should only be applied in cases where guilt is absolutely certain. This is Tracate Sanhedrin. This was also the standard of the Supreme Court when it was re-instituted.

194 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:18:37pm

re: #188 Varek Raith

that sounded like something you'd hear in like Final fantasy 7 or something, and Cloud is saying it right before he goes into the big GAIA supercomputer chamber to turn off the weather so that the bio-monsters will be unleashed

195 Four More Tears  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:18:43pm

re: #191 Varek Raith

It's okay.
You get used to his "charm".

I'm still waiting...

196 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:19:03pm

re: #176 The Shadow Do

It may just be that there was enough evidence without the damn hair. That is the part that is unreported.

There wasn't, the hair was the only evidence, the trial is public record and your ignorant insistence that secret facts may have been presented is completely antithetical to reality.

Never mind me though, I'm just a trained forensic criminologist.

197 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:19:09pm

re: #177 Merryweather

And of course if and when congress repeals DADT then he'll get none of the credit because he didn't do it by way of executive order which would only last while he is president. Instead he did it the way it should be done.

198 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:19:24pm

re: #186 albusteve

whatever, I'm totally disinterested...my failure is to understand why others are so absorbed with this woman...

Sooo... your obsession is pointing out what you believe other people obsess about? Neat trick.

Later, Steve. I'm out for pizza and beer. I'll chug one in your honor.

199 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:19:28pm

re: #188 Varek Raith

Here, thanks to Walter.

Don't thank me.

200 cliffster  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:19:31pm

re: #186 albusteve

whatever, I'm totally disinterested...my failure is to understand why others are so absorbed with this woman...

boredom

201 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:19:33pm

re: #163 jamesfirecat

///Yes but on this thread only Democrats seem to care when it happens.

(Too harsh I know...)

I'm more forgiving...it is a subject that brings out passion.

I'm disappointed that we actually have to have these discussions. I have yet to see any evidence the death penalty is indeed 'justice'.

When our most severe penalty matches that of China, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc., well, let's just say I find that disheartening.

202 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:19:41pm

re: #175 researchok

True- because they execute more frequently.

That's why I'm against the death penalty- too many opportunities for too many things to go wrong.

Well that and they have an attitude of "if we kill 100 but 10 were innocent, 9/10 ain't bad."

203 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:19:45pm

re: #184 Gus 802

Well that would be a first Steve. Sarah Palin is a public figure. She is promoting herself daily and those venues are not limited to: Facebook, Twitter, Fox News, that reality show of hers, constant mentions in a variety of different news outlets. In fact, she is probably the most public figure on the American landscape exceeding that of Britney Spears. However, unlike Spears, Palin speaks in a way that shows her intent to eventually affect our lives as a political figure.

so what?....post something original about Palin, when you do I'll wash your car for you

204 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:19:55pm

re: #199 Walter L. Newton

Don't thank me.

Roger.
No thanks to Walter.

205 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:20:13pm

re: #186 albusteve

whatever, I'm totally disinterested...my failure is to understand why others are so absorbed with this woman...

Wait. What? You commented because you're disinterested? O_o

206 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:20:21pm

re: #193 LudwigVanQuixote

Which is why it should only be applied in cases where guilt is absolutely certain. This is Tracate Sanhedrin. This was also the standard of the Supreme Court when it was re-instituted.

I'm against it in all cases, because I just don't think human error (and human desire for power, again, prosecutors, politics, etc) can be minimized to the point where we can be trusted to be certain. We can't be absolutely certain, because humanity is not perfect with regard to anything.

207 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:20:28pm

re: #189 The Shadow Do

If the only evidence was this non-evidence I would encourage the prosecutor to find a new line of work, vote not guilty and take my ten dollars for the day.

Finally you say something I can agree with.

208 Four More Tears  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:20:40pm

re: #205 CuriousLurker

Wait. What? You commented because you're disinterested? O_o

Yeah, that's what he usually says.

209 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:20:49pm

re: #202 LudwigVanQuixote

Well that and they have an attitude of "if we kill 100 but 10 were innocent, 9/10 ain't bad."

All too often that is true- and law and order politicians campaign and bank on that.

210 Political Atheist  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:21:04pm

re: #148 RadicalModerate

Damn it why did they not give the number of convictions over that period of time? Because the error rate is so low it would undermine their efforts perhaps? The advocacy disease strikes again. They have a brilliant project, a real need going there. But like the NRA they have to umm, "forget to mention all the numbers to make their point.

211 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:21:09pm

re: #206 WindUpBird

I'm against it in all cases, because I just don't think human error (and human desire for power, again, prosecutors, politics, etc) can be minimized to the point where we can be trusted to be certain. We can't be absolutely certain, because humanity is not perfect with regard to anything.

That was Akiva's view.

212 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:21:42pm

re: #190 WindUpBird

It means he's sick of us liberals :D

it's another broken record...what did you think of Scooter Libby's statements today?

213 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:21:44pm

re: #205 CuriousLurker

Wait. What? You commented because you're disinterested? O_o

INNNTERNNNEEEETTT

214 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:21:50pm

re: #194 WindUpBird

that sounded like something you'd hear in like Final fantasy 7 or something, and Cloud is saying it right before he goes into the big GAIA supercomputer chamber to turn off the weather so that the bio-monsters will be unleashed

It's the lifestream, maaaannnnn!

215 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:22:05pm

re: #209 researchok

All too often that is true- and law and order politicians campaign and bank on that.

Which is yet another reason they are evil according to our Tradition.

216 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:22:55pm

re: #196 goddamnedfrank

There wasn't, the hair was the only evidence, the trial is public record and your ignorant insistence that secret facts may have been presented is completely antithetical to reality.

Never mind me though, I'm just a trained forensic criminologist.

So you read the transcipt which consisted of a presentation of hair evidence and that was that. Saved me the time to go read something I am not all that excited about anyway. Fine. He was murdered. Texas stinks. Etc.

217 theheat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:23:13pm

re: #194 WindUpBird

turn off the weather so that the bio-monsters will be unleashed

A perfect rotating title, IMO.

218 SteveC  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:23:48pm

re: #202 LudwigVanQuixote

Well that and they have an attitude of "if we kill 100 but 10 were innocent, 9/10 ain't bad."

"I want the people to know that they still have 2 out of 3 branches of the government working for them, and that ain't bad!"

219 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:24:00pm

re: #205 CuriousLurker

Wait. What? You commented because you're disinterested? O_o

LOL you are still new here, so you don't know the Stevo waltz. He is so oppressively bored by you he needs to write how bored he is once called on his BS.

After that comes cranking about having that pointed out and a snark, followed by a rant on who he owns.

If we are lucky, we can get him talking about unions.

220 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:24:02pm

re: #212 albusteve

it's another broken record...what did you think of Scooter Libby's statements today?

did he say anything? All I know is I want to track down his weirdo novel

221 RadicalModerate  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:24:03pm

re: #178 Rightwingconspirator

Partisans only see half the problem. :)

"Under George Bush" is often meant to imply negligence or malice on his part. Of course he just failed to commute the sentence or decline the death warrant. The rest was the justice system. 99% system 1% GWB. That's the reality. I expect DNA to be critical for convicting and exonerating thousands as the years pass. Then one distant day we will get even better technology than DNA and do this all over again. As we should.

May as well say under the American Justice System. Just as accurate. But far less appealing to the most devout critics of GWB.

In the case you're talking about, I agree that the failing was more due to the Texas justice system than of Bush personally. However, the case I referred to upthread, I firmly put the execution of Cameron Todd Willingham firmly in the lap of Gov. Rick Perry, as he allowed the execution to go ahead even though evidence exonerating Willingham had surfaced before the fact. In fact, when an investigation into the handling of the case was about to conclude a few years later, Perry REPLACED three of the investigators a week before findings were released.

222 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:24:14pm

re: #218 SteveC

"I want the people to know that they still have 2 out of 3 branches of the government working for them, and that ain't bad!"

Brilliant!

223 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:24:20pm

re: #214 Varek Raith

It's the lifestream, maaannn!

I GOT YOUR LIFESTREAM RIGHT HERE

224 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:25:00pm

re: #205 CuriousLurker

Wait. What? You commented because you're disinterested uninterested? O_o

PIMF

225 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:25:30pm

re: #217 theheat

A perfect rotating title, IMO.

heeheee

DNA CRISIS! Alert ESWAT! Where's Briareos?

226 Four More Tears  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:25:33pm

re: #224 CuriousLurker

PIMF

He isn't interested in your typos either. :P

227 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:26:28pm

re: #226 JasonA

He isn't interested in your typos either. :P

LOL. Okay, you just made me choke on my coffee!

228 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:26:53pm

re: #226 JasonA

He isn't interested in your typos either. :P

Cato would've been.
:P

229 Political Atheist  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:27:03pm

re: #192 jamesfirecat

We don't expect legal perfection, but I expect legal competence.

Denying a man a DNA test when much of the case rested on said item is not legal competence...

Utterly correct. DNA must be used when available. Every wrongful conviction is a tragedy. Every one. But I have a question for your other point-How do you define competent? 90% right? 99%? 99.9%? 99.99%?

We have about 2.2 million people in jail. If about 220 got exonerated by DNA, that's a very small %.

About .001% exonerated. And counting obviously.

230 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:28:19pm

re: #229 Rightwingconspirator

Utterly correct. DNA must be used when available. Every wrongful conviction is a tragedy. Every one. But I have a question for your other point-How do you define competent? 90% right? 99%? 99.9%? 99.99%?

We have about 2.2 million people in jail. If about 220 got exonerated by DNA, that's a very small %.

About .001% exonerated. And counting obviously.

Let's start with a moratorium on executions.
Test those first.

231 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:28:38pm

re: #229 Rightwingconspirator

The number isn't how many have been exonerated, but how many would be if DNA testing was available for all of them.

232 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:29:08pm

re: #230 Varek Raith

Let's start with a moratorium on executions.
Test those first.

should Hasan be executed?....no?

233 RadicalModerate  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:29:29pm

re: #229 Rightwingconspirator

Utterly correct. DNA must be used when available. Every wrongful conviction is a tragedy. Every one. But I have a question for your other point-How do you define competent? 90% right? 99%? 99.9%? 99.99%?

We have about 2.2 million people in jail. If about 220 got exonerated by DNA, that's a very small %.

About .001% exonerated. And counting obviously.

Not an accurate comparison.
Out of those 2.2 million people in prison, how many of those are on death row, or convicted of a major violent offence where DNA evidence would even come into play?

234 Merryweather  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:29:34pm

re: #197 Dreggas

And of course if and when congress repeals DADT then he'll get none of the credit because he didn't do it by way of executive order which would only last while he is president. Instead he did it the way it should be done.

It's ironic - the left hated the Bush acted as president, now they hate Obama for not acting like Bush.

235 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:29:41pm
And there’s a reason why Ghailani was acquitted of the other charges: because the evidence was obtained during the Bush administration, while Ghailani was at Guantanamo Bay.

By torturing him.

So it was excluded.

I wish I could have this tattooed onto the forehead (backwards of course, so they can read it in a mirror) of certain members of my family. Grumble grumble.

Not looking forward to Thanksgiving :(

236 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:29:47pm

re: #229 Rightwingconspirator

Utterly correct. DNA must be used when available. Every wrongful conviction is a tragedy. Every one. But I have a question for your other point-How do you define competent? 90% right? 99%? 99.9%? 99.99%?

We have about 2.2 million people in jail. If about 220 got exonerated by DNA, that's a very small %.

About .001% exonerated. And counting obviously.

RWC, of those 2.2 million they are not all on death row. Think about what you are saying.

237 Four More Tears  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:30:12pm

re: #232 albusteve

should Hasan be executed?...no?


I'll bite.

No.

238 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:30:30pm

re: #229 Rightwingconspirator

Utterly correct. DNA must be used when available. Every wrongful conviction is a tragedy. Every one. But I have a question for your other point-How do you define competent? 90% right? 99%? 99.9%? 99.99%?

We have about 2.2 million people in jail. If about 220 got exonerated by DNA, that's a very small %.

About .001% exonerated. And counting obviously.

It's wrong when we obviously fucked this up. It's even more wrong when we killed this man.

What do you expect me to say that I'm afraid it costs too much for us to do the science to prove if someone was truly guilty or not?

Because if so you can hang up your hopes now.

It is competence when a good faith effort is made to inspect all possible evidence.

239 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:30:41pm

re: #232 albusteve

should Hasan be executed?...no?

I believe no.
Why?
Because death is the easy way out for him. I'd rather he suffer in a cell for as long as he lives.

240 Merryweather  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:30:56pm

re: #234 Merryweather

It's ironic - the left hated the way Bush acted as president, now they hate Obama for not acting like Bush.

PIMF

241 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:30:59pm

re: #219 LudwigVanQuixote

LOL you are still new here, so you don't know the Stevo waltz.

Nah, I've been here long enough to get it. That's why I don't bother getting upset. I'm actually oddly fond of him & brookly. They're sort of like the Statler and Waldorf of LGF.

242 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:31:06pm

It's a given that the wingnut bloggers would violently crap themselves over 1) any terrorism trial that took place under the ZOMG SOCIALMASLIST reign of Obama, 2) ZOMG CiViLiAn TrIaL and (most importantly) 3) any trial that resulted in any verdict less than death.

Times this to eleventy when we're talking about people who were tortured. The role of torture in the wingnut world is essentially the same as it was for the inquisition: if he drowns he's not a witch terrorist, so sorry; if he doesn't drown HE's a WiTcH terrorist so do it some MOAR!

243 SteveC  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:31:39pm

re: #234 Merryweather

It's ironic - the left hated the Bush acted as president, now they hate Obama for not acting like Bush.

It's not unusual.

244 darthstar  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:31:41pm

Gloom, despair, and agony...yes, it's been THAT kind of day.

245 Political Atheist  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:32:10pm

re: #231 Obdicut

Okay, but we must have some idea of the number before declaring general incompetence. Particular cases are a different matter, negligence, misconduct, excluding evidence... all very bad. And ramping up the lab capacity would be a very good, very necessary thing. But evidence will always have limitations. Would we DNA test those caught in the act? I would hope not. Will we always have perpetrator DNA at the crime scene? Nope.

246 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:33:06pm

re: #242 iceweasel

Times this to eleventy when we're talking about people who were tortured. The role of torture in the wingnut world is essentially the same as it was for the inquisition: if he drowns he's not a witch terrorist, so sorry; if he doesn't drown HE's a WiTcH terrorist so do it some MOAR!

If he weighs the same as a duck, he's made out of wood!

And therefore....

247 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:33:08pm

re: #146 LudwigVanQuixote

Ouch.

248 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:33:41pm

re: #245 Rightwingconspirator

Okay, but we must have some idea of the number before declaring general incompetence. Particular cases are a different matter, negligence, misconduct, excluding evidence... all very bad. And ramping up the lab capacity would be a very good, very necessary thing. But evidence will always have limitations. Would we DNA test those caught in the act? I would hope not. Will we always have perpetrator DNA at the crime scene? Nope.

If DNA is there, we have no excuse not to test it.

I wasn't arguing that there was "general incompetence' I was arguing that there was clearly incompetence in this case and that this displeases me greatly to say the least.

249 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:34:21pm

re: #247 CuriousLurker

Ouch.

If they are going to get all thin skinned and squeal like little stuck piggies, give them the real truth to squeal about.

250 Political Atheist  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:34:43pm

re: #230 Varek Raith

Start there, sure. BTW, I would not ever sign a death warrant if I were a Governor or President. Not for anyone ever. Personally I can only contemplate taking a life in a defensive incident.

251 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:35:20pm

re: #146 LudwigVanQuixote

And let's get real. You are getting older. Those breasts of yours have got to be sagging a bit. Most ladies have other assets than that. Most ladies are so much more than their bodies. For you though, this must be a threat. Because let's face it, that is your only asset, and it is far outclassed by many who are younger and prettier.

Uncool.

252 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:36:03pm

re: #251 negativ

Uncool.

but her ass was in his face!

253 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:36:17pm

re: #246 negativ

If he weighs the same as a duck, he's made out of wood!

And therefore...

BURN THEM!1

So pleased someone made the Python comment. Thank you. :-)

254 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:36:20pm

re: #250 Rightwingconspirator

Start there, sure. BTW, I would not ever sign a death warrant if I were a Governor or President. Not for anyone ever. Personally I can only contemplate taking a life in a defensive incident.

You would not feel compelled to sustain the verdict of the legal system?

255 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:36:35pm

re: #252 albusteve

but her ass was in his face!

Then what's he complaining for?!
/

256 Four More Tears  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:37:28pm

re: #250 Rightwingconspirator

Personally I can only contemplate taking a life in a defensive incident.

If you had any dreams of getting back in with the Right™ let them die now.

257 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:37:30pm

re: #255 Varek Raith

Then what's he complaining for?!
/

it's Freudian...LVQ has these sorts daydreams

258 Political Atheist  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:37:49pm

re: #238 jamesfirecat

It's wrong when we obviously fucked this up. It's even more wrong when we killed this man.
What do you expect me to say that I'm afraid it costs too much for us to do the science to prove if someone was truly guilty or not?
Because if so you can hang up your hopes now.
It is competence when a good faith effort is made to inspect all possible evidence.

All I am asking you to say is how you define competence. If a good faith effort to use all available evidence is the standard, fine, I agree with you. If it is zero wrongful convictions in heinous crimes, well that's just not realistic.

259 SteveC  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:37:52pm

re: #252 albusteve

but her ass was in his face!

re: #255 Varek Raith

Then what's he complaining for?!
/

Some places, they make you pay extra for that.

260 Merryweather  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:37:54pm

re: #253 iceweasel

BURN THEM!1

So pleased someone made the Python comment. Thank you. :-)

The day is fast approaching when Monty Python sketches are less ridiculous than real life. Heck, we're probably already there.

261 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:38:00pm

re: #251 negativ

Uncool.

But true.

Can anyone deny for one moment that Sarah was not thrust into the national spotlight as a craven and callous attempt by the GOP to balance out Hilary?

Does she have any ideas of her own of merit?

Is she little more than a craven opportunist?

262 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:38:07pm

re: #251 negativ

Uncool.

Agreed. Uncool.

LVQ, if it weren't kind of late here (and if I didn't love ya so much) I totally would have downdinged you for that. Extremely, extremely uncool.

263 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:38:20pm

re: #220 WindUpBird

did he say anything? All I know is I want to track down his weirdo novel

This reminds me, I need to ask my Mom if she still has her copy of Lynn Cheney's Sisters.

264 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:38:35pm

re: #253 iceweasel

BURN THEM!1

So pleased someone made the Python comment. Thank you. :-)

I'll be a sad day indeed if the time ever comes when you can go on the Internet and not be bombarded by Monty Python references.


/I'd like to have an argument, please.

265 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:39:13pm

re: #260 Merryweather

The day is fast approaching when Monty Python sketches are less ridiculous than real life. Heck, we're probably already there.

Hey MW! S'up? good to see you. :)

266 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:39:36pm

re: #258 Rightwingconspirator

All I am asking you to say is how you define competence. If a good faith effort to use all available evidence is the standard, fine, I agree with you. If it is zero wrongful convictions in heinous crimes, well that's just not realistic.

I don't see zero wrongful convictions.

I see zero wrongful convictions like this one, where the evidence is clearly f***ing lacking.

267 Four More Tears  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:39:42pm

re: #262 iceweasel

Agreed. Uncool.

LVQ, if it weren't kind of late here (and if I didn't love ya so much) I totally would have downdinged you for that. Extremely, extremely uncool.

Did someone convince you that the downding button stops working after midnight GMT?

268 engineer cat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:40:00pm

re: #264 negativ

I'll be a sad day indeed if the time ever comes when you can go on the Internet and not be bombarded by Monty Python references.


/I'd like to have an argument, please.

no, you don't

269 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:40:30pm

re: #261 LudwigVanQuixote

But true.

Can anyone deny for one moment that Sarah was not thrust into the national spotlight as a craven and callous attempt by the GOP to balance out Hilary?

Does she have any ideas of her own of merit?

Is she little more than a craven opportunist?

That's not what the objection was about.

270 webevintage  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:40:34pm

re: #72 lostlakehiker

He'd have been convicted on most counts. The evidence was complete and convincing.

Really?

271 Political Atheist  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:40:46pm

re: #254 The Shadow Do

You would not feel compelled to sustain the verdict of the legal system?

No. I would feel compelled to accept the verdict, not necessarily the sentence. Look, I'm never running. But opposition to the death penalty will always be in my mind. Sure I have been angry enough at a crime to have zero sympathy for the executed man. But I would not sign.

272 theheat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:40:59pm

I have animals to feed and dinner to make. Ick [squared]

273 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:41:14pm

re: #264 negativ

I'll be a sad day indeed if the time ever comes when you can go on the Internet and not be bombarded by Monty Python references.

/I'd like to have an argument, please.

Heh. I was so planning on saying, "I thought this was the Argument Clinic, I didn't come here for Abuse" when appropriate.

274 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:41:59pm

re: #272 theheat

I have animals to feed and dinner to make. Ick [squared]

Someone who loved animals less than I do might suggest turning your animals into dinner, thereby killing two birds with one stone (as it were).

275 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:42:32pm

re: #273 iceweasel

Heh. I was so planning on saying, "I thought this was the Argument Clinic, I didn't come here for Abuse" when appropriate.

Ah, pardon me, but is this the five-minute argument, or the full half-hour?

276 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:42:36pm

re: #261 LudwigVanQuixote

But true.

Can anyone deny for one moment that Sarah was not thrust into the national spotlight as a craven and callous attempt by the GOP to balance out Hilary?

Does she have any ideas of her own of merit?

Is she little more than a craven opportunist?

so you attack her tatas?...like a sixth grader?
hahaha!

277 Merryweather  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:42:40pm

re: #265 iceweasel

Likewise - I missed seeing you on here :) Not too bad - was out of work for a while, finally got a new job a few weeks back so I'm good. How're you and Jimmah doing?

278 cliffster  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:42:57pm

re: #261 LudwigVanQuixote

But true.

Can anyone deny for one moment that Sarah was not thrust into the national spotlight as a craven and callous attempt by the GOP to balance out Hilary?

Does she have any ideas of her own of merit?

Is she little more than a craven opportunist?

perhaps if you want to obsessively obsess over your hatred for a woman, you could find a way to insult her in a way that doesn't insult women in general.

279 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:44:50pm

re: #278 cliffster

perhaps if you want to obsessively obsess over your hatred for a woman, you could find a way to insult her in a way that doesn't insult women in general.

I was wondering when someone was going to point out that bullshit misogynist rant?

280 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:45:42pm

re: #271 Rightwingconspirator

No. I would feel compelled to accept the verdict, not necessarily the sentence. Look, I'm never running. But opposition to the death penalty will always be in my mind. Sure I have been angry enough at a crime to have zero sympathy for the executed man. But I would not sign.

That's fair. I understand. Can't agree though. Justice for heinous murder is only served by forfeiture of life in my book, but that's just me.

281 Steve Dutch  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:46:04pm

Even a military tribunal might very well have made the same ruling. But it is a fiasco in one sense:

They said the evidence showed that he helped to buy the Nissan Atlas truck that was used to carry the bomb, and gas tanks that were placed inside the truck to intensify the blast. He also stored an explosive detonator in an armoire he used, and his cellphone became the “operational phone” for the plotters before the attacks, prosecutors contended.

Since when do those actions, resulting in mass deaths, not qualify as murder?

282 engineer cat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:47:15pm

here's a fun item that will allow us to talk about breasts without politics getting in the way

A woman posed as a physician and duped at least two other women into undergoing breast exams at her hands in Boise-area nightclubs, according to police.

Kristina Ross, 37, remains in the Ada County Jail on two felony counts of practicing medicine without a license. An Idaho judge set bond at $100,000 on Wednesday.

Police said Ross introduced herself to victims — one at a downtown Boise bar and the other at a nightclub in a Boise suburb — as a plastic surgeon named Berlyn Aussieahshowna, a name that turned out to be bogus.

283 theheat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:47:45pm

Oh, man, and I see my cigars came by Fed-Ex and I didn't even notice they came. Yes, I'm smoking little flavored cigars now. I'm going to smoke a cigar and feed the critters. When I think about it, I guess I've gone total hillbilly. Next, it'll be prairie dresses and comfortable shoes, and maybe trade the guitar for a banjo. Holy crap, it's getting bad.

284 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:47:48pm

re: #281 SteveDutch

Even a military tribunal might very well have made the same ruling. But it is a fiasco in one sense:

Since when do those actions, resulting in mass deaths, not qualify as murder?

When a jury says so.

285 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:48:12pm

re: #283 theheat

Oh, man, and I see my cigars came by Fed-Ex and I didn't even notice they came. Yes, I'm smoking little flavored cigars now. I'm going to smoke a cigar and feed the critters. When I think about it, I guess I've gone total hillbilly. Next, it'll be prairie dresses and comfortable shoes, and maybe trade the guitar for a banjo. Holy crap, it's getting bad.

Post a picture.

286 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:48:29pm

re: #282 engineer dog

I'm not a gynecologist but I'll take a look.

//

287 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:48:30pm

re: #281 SteveDutch

Even a military tribunal might very well have made the same ruling. But it is a fiasco in one sense:


Since when do those actions, resulting in mass deaths, not qualify as murder?

There it is.

288 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:48:31pm

re: #277 Merryweather

Likewise - I missed seeing you on here :) Not too bad - was out of work for a while, finally got a new job a few weeks back so I'm good. How're you and Jimmah doing?

Hi Merryweather! We're doing great. We just about finished redecorating; we are currently getting ready for thanskgiving, which is now a holiday here in Scotland, thanks to us ;-)

289 Steve Dutch  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:48:43pm

Additional point. It may be a victory for the rule of law. But it will be a Pyrrhic victory if the final result is to erode confidence in the law.

290 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:49:41pm

re: #289 SteveDutch

How the hell does seeing the system work erode confidence in the law?

291 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:49:43pm

Pew Research: Public knows basic facts, but struggles with specifics.

Sample size is too small for my taste, but, woo-wee!

While 75% identify the Republicans as the party regarded as doing best in the midterms, fewer than half (46%) know that Republicans will have a majority only in the House when the new Congress convenes in January. About one-in-seven (14%) say the GOP won both the House and Senate; 8% say they won just the Senate; 5% do not think they will have a majority in either chamber; and 27% do not know.

There is broad awareness among most political and demographic groups that the Republicans did best in the midterms. But just 27% of those younger than age 30 know that Republicans captured just the House; 19% say that they won both the House and Senate while 42% do not know. By contrast, 45% of those ages 30 to 49, and majorities of those ages 50 to 64 (55%) and ages 65 and older (57%), answered this question correctly.

Look over the whole thing. What I got from it is that approximately half the country doesn't know their ass from their elbow. I wish they'd included some questions about Lady Gaga and Dancing with the Stars just to make it extra depressing.

292 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:49:51pm

re: #267 JasonA

Did someone convince you that the downding button stops working after midnight GMT?

You can't even buy bread here after like noon. :(

How are you? And mom?

293 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:50:45pm

re: #261 LudwigVanQuixote

But true.

Can anyone deny for one moment that Sarah was not thrust into the national spotlight as a craven and callous attempt by the GOP to balance out Hilary?

Does she have any ideas of her own of merit?

Is she little more than a craven opportunist?

I think the point everyone's trying to make (and the reason I didn't up-ding that particular comment) is that women are too often attacked based on their physical appearance rather than the merits (or lack thereof) of what they have to say.

That a significant part of Palin's allure may very well be her physical attractiveness doesn't take the sting out of it for other women.

294 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:50:49pm

re: #269 wrenchwench

That's not what the objection was about.

Ahh then you are all missing my point.

I am about as feminist a poster as you will find.

Which is the model of a Feminist?

Is it a well educated woman who is just as good as a man at her job?

Is is a slutty airhead who flirts with the media and uses her body to compensate for her lack of ideas or ability?

Is it woman who earned her position by being that good?

Or is it an ditzy opportunistic woman, with no care for anyone but herself, who was put into place for no other reason than she has breasts?

I am shocked you all missed the point. I suppose you were more upset that mentioned breasts than the context that it was mentioned in.

And the point on Fox is absolutely clear. A woman need not dress like a hooker to be taken seriously - but on Fox it is job requirement.

I am the only honest feminist here if you don't see those points.

295 Political Atheist  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:51:16pm

re: #282 engineer dog

Reminds me of LA Story. The Steve Martin character Harris feels up Sarah J Parkers character, forgot the name.

He says "they feel so strange".

"oh' she says. "I get that all the time. These are REAL breasts."

Love that movie.

296 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:51:30pm

re: #290 Dreggas

How the hell does seeing the system work erode confidence in the law?

Because it didn't work as per Steve's preconceived outcome of the trial.

297 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:51:41pm

re: #273 iceweasel

Heh. I was so planning on saying, "I thought this was the Argument Clinic, I didn't come here for Abuse" when appropriate.

Hey babe tell the oh so sensitive folks here what I meant by that post please.

298 SteveC  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:51:41pm

re: #283 theheat

Oh, man, and I see my cigars came by Fed-Ex and I didn't even notice they came. Yes, I'm smoking little flavored cigars now. I'm going to smoke a cigar and feed the critters. When I think about it, I guess I've gone total hillbilly. Next, it'll be prairie dresses and comfortable shoes, and maybe trade the guitar for a banjo. Holy crap, it's getting bad.

Do you have a Hillbilly Footwasher?

If you do, it will be in the bathroom. You stick your foot in the large bowl of water and pull the handle; the water swirls all around and washes your foot, then it automatically empties. After it refills you switch feet and wash the other foot.

Pretty freakin' awesome!

299 Four More Tears  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:52:26pm

re: #292 iceweasel

You can't even buy bread here after like noon. :(

How are you? And mom?

We're both doing pretty well, thanks for asking. She gets tired quickly though, but otherwise is moving around like a champ.

300 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:52:55pm

re: #276 albusteve

so you attack her tatas?...like a sixth grader?
hahaha!

Ludwig made his point in a crass, clumsy, derogatory manner, granted. But still I lost count of how many men came up to Sarah Palin after her speech at the Value Voters Summit and openly leered, saying shit like "Todd's a lucky man!" Over and over. These are the same atavistic pud whacks who couldn't get enough of Christine O'Donnell, they vote for women who they want to fuck.

301 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:53:35pm

re: #280 The Shadow Do

That's fair. I understand. Can't agree though. Justice for heinous murder is only served by forfeiture of life in my book, but that's just me.

Does it not strike you that spending the remaining 50+ years of your life in a shithole prison might suck a lot worse than just going to sleep?

302 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:54:28pm

re: #297 LudwigVanQuixote

Hey babe tell the oh so sensitive folks here what I meant by that post please.

hey babe, tell us yourself again...it may take a few tries to get your pretzel logic...and try to get over your phony shock

303 Four More Tears  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:54:57pm

re: #298 SteveC

Do you have a Hillbilly Footwasher?

If you do, it will be in the bathroom. You stick your foot in the large bowl of water and pull the handle; the water swirls all around and washes your foot, then it automatically empties. After it refills you switch feet and wash the other foot.

Pretty freakin' awesome!

I hear it's best used when the water's brown...

304 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:55:14pm

re: #301 negativ

Does it not strike you that spending the remaining 50+ years of your life in a shithole prison might suck a lot worse than just going to sleep?

not on my dime

305 Merryweather  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:55:59pm

re: #288 Jimmah

Hi Merryweather! We're doing great. We just about finished redecorating; we are currently getting ready for thanskgiving, which is now a holiday here in Scotland, thanks to us ;-)

Yay Scotland - my family hails from Dundee (we're now spread all over the globe). Don't forget to introduce Ice to the joys of Hogmanay...

306 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:56:28pm

re: #294 LudwigVanQuixote

Ludwig? I know your heart's in the right place, but it's a woman thing. We're sensitive about stuff like that, even if when we really, really dislike the woman it's being said about.

307 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:56:51pm

re: #294 LudwigVanQuixote

I am not a feminist.

I have breasts. Mentioning breasts does not freak me out.

Palin was not put in the position of VP candidate because she has breasts, unless by that you mean because she's a woman, in which case you have a very narrow view of womanhood. She was selected for her so-con cred.

308 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:56:51pm

re: #292 iceweasel

You can't even buy bread here after like noon. :(

Did you move through space AND time to 1979 Ukraine or something?

309 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:57:56pm

re: #297 LudwigVanQuixote

Hey babe tell the oh so sensitive folks here what I meant by that post please.

I did.

Uncool. I know what you meant. You could have found ways of expressing it that didn't involve that kind of reference to her person. E.g., google Rich Lowry and sTARBURST.

It's not her fault that wingnut males fetishize her because of her gender. It IS our fault when we criticise HER-- and not her fanbois -- for their drooling misogyny and sexism and fapping over her.

We can talk about this later. Right now the usual haters (hi walter) are trying to make a special issue over your post, and I'm so not interested in that.

Jimmah and I are watching Buffy on DVD lately. How's by you?

310 Four More Tears  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:58:02pm

re: #307 wrenchwench

I am not a feminist.

I have breasts. Mentioning breasts does not freak me out.

Palin was not put in the position of VP candidate because she has breasts, unless by that you mean because she's a woman, in which case you have a very narrow view of womanhood. She was selected for her so-con cred.

Are we sure they took enough time to vet her to actually find out that she was a woman?

/

311 Merryweather  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:58:10pm

re: #307 wrenchwench

I am not a feminist.

I have breasts. Mentioning breasts does not freak me out.

Palin was not put in the position of VP candidate because she has breasts, unless by that you mean because she's a woman, in which case you have a very narrow view of womanhood. She was selected for her so-con cred.

I'm pretty sure courting the disaffected Hillary voters had more than a little to do with her selection.

312 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:58:18pm

re: #301 negativ

Does it not strike you that spending the remaining 50+ years of your life in a shithole prison might suck a lot worse than just going to sleep?

Are you against torture or not?

313 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:58:36pm

re: #309 iceweasel

I did.

Uncool. I know what you meant. You could have found ways of expressing it that didn't involve that kind of reference to her person. E.g., google Rich Lowry and sTARBURST.

It's not her fault that wingnut males fetishize her because of her gender. It IS our fault when we criticise HER-- and not her fanbois -- for their drooling misogyny and sexism and fapping over her.

We can talk about this later. Right now the usual haters (hi walter) are trying to make a special issue over your post, and I'm so not interested in that.

Jimmah and I are watching Buffy on DVD lately. How's by you?

Hi ice.

314 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:59:42pm

re: #297 LudwigVanQuixote


"Hey babe..."

Gotta love it.

315 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 4:59:44pm

re: #307 wrenchwench

I am not a feminist.

I have breasts. Mentioning breasts does not freak me out.

Palin was not put in the position of VP candidate because she has breasts, unless by that you mean because she's a woman, in which case you have a very narrow view of womanhood. She was selected for her so-con cred.

Let's be perfectly clear. She was selected because Joe Lieberman is a Jew and Hillary wasn't on the Democratic ticket. Her so-con cred was last on her list of qualifications.

316 engineer cat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:00:30pm

the GOP has spent the last year or so seeking ever lower lowest common denominators, and sexy, attractive people of both genders, no matter how dumb, are just one of their sucker lures

just wait until we start to hear about how Mitt The Not Especially Bright Poodle is so handsome and presidential looking

317 Political Atheist  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:00:40pm

Just in case someone takes my attiude to the criminal justice system as cavalier, I'd reveal this very personal fact.

My long grown up and moved away foster daughter is on trial and her entire life depends on the system and the jury getting this right. Her husband was convicted of raping their 2 year old girl. Life in jail. (Talk about a person that challenges my anger mgmt...wow. Now I know I'm not a killer at heart.) In an attempt to get off the charge he implicated his naive wife. In this case DNA will not help. But the system will determine if she has a life and two children to raise, or rots in state prison.

BBL I'm out for a drink. Or a smoke. Or both.

318 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:00:42pm

re: #311 Merryweather

I'm pretty sure courting the disaffected Hillary voters had more than a little to do with her selection.

That thought may have been in the room when the decision was made, but if so, it was the stupidest thought in the room. And the competition was tough.

319 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:00:52pm

Disgusting-- I'm out for the night.

PS all you "I am not a feminist' types-- feminism is why you have the vote and can go to college and hold jobs.

"I'm not a feminist-- I believe Rush Limbaugh! all 'feminists' are people who hate men@! giggle'.

Later.

320 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:01:10pm

re: #305 Merryweather

Yay Scotland - my family hails from Dundee (we're now spread all over the globe). Don't forget to introduce Ice to the joys of Hogmanay...

Ahh Dundee - home of The Broons.

This will be the first hogmanay we've spent together. Last year on hogmanay I was on a plane from NYC back to Scotland, minus ice-ski, which was pretty depressing, so this years will be extra special.

321 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:01:17pm

re: #304 albusteve

not on my dime

Death penalty cases are far more expensive to try and carry out.

Trials in which the prosecutor is seeking a death sentence have two separate and distinct phases: conviction (guilt/innocence) and sentencing. Special motions and extra time for jury selection typically precede such trials.

More investigative costs are generally incurred in capital cases, particularly by the prosecution.

When death penalty trials result in a verdict less than death or are reversed, taxpayers first incur all the extra costs of capital pretrial and trial proceedings and must then also pay either for the cost of incarcerating the prisoner for life or the costs of a retrial (which often leads to a life sentence).

322 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:02:19pm

re: #317 Rightwingconspirator

Just in case someone takes my attiude to the criminal justice system as cavalier, I'd reveal this very personal fact.

My long grown up and moved away foster daughter is on trial and her entire life depends on the system and the jury getting this right. Her husband was convicted of raping their 2 year old girl. Life in jail. (Talk about a person that challenges my anger mgmt...wow. Now I know I'm not a killer at heart.) In an attempt to get off the charge he implicated his naive wife. In this case DNA will not help. But the system will determine if she has a life and two children to raise, or rots in state prison.

BBL I'm out for a drink. Or a smoke. Or both.

Cripes, hang in. That's really, really tough.

323 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:02:50pm

re: #319 iceweasel

Disgusting-- I'm out for the night.

PS all you "I am not a feminist' types-- feminism is why you have the vote and can go to college and hold jobs.

"I'm not a feminist-- I believe Rush Limbaugh! all 'feminists' are people who hate men@! giggle'.

Later.

Since I'm the only one who said that, I guess you mean me. My position is somewhat deeper than what you indicate, however. Piss off.

324 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:03:33pm

re: #313 Walter L. Newton

Hi ice.

Until you apologise for calling me a whore, Walter, you can fuck off and die. Don't address me again.

325 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:03:39pm

re: #317 Rightwingconspirator

Just in case someone takes my attiude to the criminal justice system as cavalier, I'd reveal this very personal fact.

My long grown up and moved away foster daughter is on trial and her entire life depends on the system and the jury getting this right. Her husband was convicted of raping their 2 year old girl. Life in jail. (Talk about a person that challenges my anger mgmt...wow. Now I know I'm not a killer at heart.) In an attempt to get off the charge he implicated his naive wife. In this case DNA will not help. But the system will determine if she has a life and two children to raise, or rots in state prison.

BBL I'm out for a drink. Or a smoke. Or both.

Yikes. Very sorry to hear that. Sounds like a horrible situation.

326 engineer cat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:04:06pm

re: #316 engineer dog

the GOP has spent the last year or so seeking ever lower lowest common denominators, and sexy, attractive people of both genders, no matter how dumb, are just one of their sucker lures

just wait until we start to hear about how Mitt The Not Especially Bright Poodle is so handsome and presidential looking

there was even a trool on the eschaton blog ("Lubyanka") going on and on about how sotomayor and kagan weren't cute enough for him and why can't the democratic party get some babes like the GOP has

327 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:04:47pm

re: #315 goddamnedfrank

Let's be perfectly clear. She was selected because Joe Lieberman is a Jew and Hillary wasn't on the Democratic ticket. Her so-con cred was last on her list of qualifications.

It may not have been first, but I really don't think it was last.

328 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:05:09pm

re: #317 Rightwingconspirator

{RWC}

329 Merryweather  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:05:26pm

re: #320 Jimmah

Ahh Dundee - home of The Broons.

This will be the first hogmanay we've spent together. Last year on hogmanay I was on a plane from NYC back to Scotland, minus ice-ski, which was pretty depressing, so this years will be extra special.

Yeah - I remember the hell you and poor Ice had to go through to be able to live in the same country. Glad you finally got it sorted!

330 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:05:32pm

re: #309 iceweasel

Yeah! Ice, Jimmah, LVQ & Buffy!
*waves to all*

331 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:05:41pm

re: #313 Walter L. Newton

Hi ice.

Piss off you misogynistic wanker.

332 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:05:47pm

any hornets nest in particular this evening? - or should i just go back to watching Law&Order.........?

333 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:06:13pm

re: #331 Jimmah

Piss off you misogynistic wanker.

Yawn.

334 cliffster  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:06:28pm

re: #317 Rightwingconspirator

holy shit

335 SteveC  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:08:03pm

re: #332 wozzablog

any hornets nest in particular this evening? - or should i just go back to watching Law&Order...?

Hang around, but keep your head on a swivel. The shots are coming from all sides tonight.

336 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:08:25pm

On on the science front... cool...

(CNN) -- Scientists have captured antimatter atoms for the first time, a breakthrough that could eventually help us to understand the nature and origins of the universe.

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

(see... it is 6 thousand years old)

337 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:09:26pm

re: #336 Walter L. Newton

On on the science front... cool...

(CNN) -- Scientists have captured antimatter atoms for the first time, a breakthrough that could eventually help us to understand the nature and origins of the universe.

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

(see... it is 6 thousand years old)

Update... video of a few minutes after the conclusion of the experiment.

[Link: www.cyriak.co.uk...]

338 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:10:22pm

re: #317 Rightwingconspirator

What a horrible situation. {RWC}

339 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:10:25pm

Fight night on LGF?
Hmmm.

For Jimmah...

340 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:10:25pm

re: #312 The Shadow Do

Are you against torture or not?

Yep. Imprisonment (at least in the US) is not specifically intended to be physically agonizing.

341 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:10:33pm

re: #323 wrenchwench

Since I'm the only one who said that, I guess you mean me. My position is somewhat deeper than what you indicate, however. Piss off.

Every woman who benefits from feminism (that would be you as you have the right to vote, etc) who then toadies to misogynists by saying "I'm not a feminist" is part of the problem. Like Palin, you want to cloak yourself in the mantle of feminism, reap the benefits of feminism, while slagging off the actual feminists and the actual women who fought for your right to sit there and giggle "I'm not a feminist - I'm with you Mr Man!".

Piss off yourself.

342 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:12:30pm

re: #340 negativ

Yep. Imprisonment (at least in the US) is not specifically intended to be physically agonizing.

Of course it isn't. *wink* *wink*

343 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:13:23pm

re: #341 Jimmah

Every woman who benefits from feminism (that would be you as you have the right to vote, etc) who then toadies to misogynists by saying "I'm not a feminist" is part of the problem. Like Palin, you want to cloak yourself in the mantle of feminism, reap the benefits of feminism, while slagging off the actual feminists and the actual women who fought for your right to sit there and giggle "I'm not a feminist - I'm with you Mr Man!".

Piss off yourself.

Are you saying that every person who says they are not a feminist has the exact same reason for doing so, and that you know what that reason is?

344 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:13:49pm

I miss everybody calling everybody a Nazi days.

345 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:13:50pm

re: #339 Floral Giraffe

Fight night on LGF?
Hmmm.

For Jimmah...

[Video]

Hi FG! Always good to see you! Having a great time here tonight. Some people though...

346 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:14:00pm

I buried (envaulted) my father today and I said kaddish (and I am the ultra Haredi). And I did it without bragging about feminism.

So please stop this stupid bickering over who is a real "feminist" and who is an enslaved woman.

Just stop it already.

It's so freaking trivial.

347 cliffster  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:14:18pm

re: #344 researchok

I miss everybody calling everybody a Nazi days.

Ask me if I'm an orange.

348 SteveC  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:14:24pm

Damn...

Theory has it that a sharp blow to the sternum, delivered at just the right nanosecond in the cardiac cycle, will send the heart into ventricular fibrillation and the person so struck will die unless prompt CPR and defibrillation is performed.

NSFW alert: Link contains video of Sudden Cardiac Death.

349 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:14:39pm

re: #347 cliffster

Ask me if I'm an orange.

Orange you?

350 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:14:57pm

Researchok is a nazi.

351 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:15:13pm

re: #347 cliffster

Ask me if I'm an orange.

We know you're not Jon Boenher - you couldn't possibly be orange.........

352 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:15:15pm

re: #343 wrenchwench

There's a loootta different flavors of feminism :P

353 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:15:46pm

re: #347 cliffster

Ask me if I'm an orange.

You'd like that, wouldn't you, you fucking Nazi.

//////////////////

354 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:15:54pm

re: #350 The Shadow Do

Researchok is a nazi.

And we can resume regularly scheduled commenting on LGF.

This post is brought to you by the letter Q

355 SteveC  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:16:44pm

re: #344 researchok

I miss everybody calling everybody a Nazi days.

Just for you....

NAZI!!

Feel better?

356 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:17:00pm

re: #354 researchok

And we can resume regularly scheduled commenting on LGF.

This post is brought to you by the letter Q

maybe Palin has been up to something....anybody?

357 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:17:01pm

This is how I roll

[Link: www.myspace.com...]

feminism should be fucking loud

358 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:17:08pm

I'm a Nazi, you're a Nazi,..wouldn't you like to be a Nazi too?

One wonders.

359 cliffster  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:17:35pm

re: #349 researchok

Orange you?

you'd better banana

360 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:17:57pm
361 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:18:10pm

re: #355 SteveC

Just for you...

NAZI!!

Feel better?

Yes, I do.

It's better than seeing people going after each personally.

362 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:18:56pm

We are all Nazis now

363 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:19:09pm

re: #352 WindUpBird

There's a loootta different flavors of feminism :P

I am trying to give the impression that there is also more than one flavor of not-feminist. I'm not an anti-feminist. I don't hate women. I don't think men are better (nor worse).

364 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:19:13pm

re: #356 albusteve

maybe Palin has been up to something...anybody?

Sadly she hasn't tweeted anything else. No more drama for me tonight. *sniffle*

365 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:19:19pm

re: #356 albusteve

maybe Palin has been up to something...anybody?

She is up to her ass in bear shit, far as I can tell.

366 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:19:25pm

re: #358 The Shadow Do

I'm a Nazi, you're a Nazi,..wouldn't you like to be a Nazi too?

One wonders.

don't be a dummy be a smarty....come on join the Nazi party.........

367 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:19:54pm

re: #363 wrenchwench

I am trying to give the impression that there is also more than one flavor of not-feminist. I'm not an anti-feminist. I don't hate women. I don't think men are better (nor worse).

Trust me on this. We are worse.

368 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:19:55pm

re: #356 albusteve

maybe Palin has been up to something...anybody?

Let's check our tweets. I have three tweet tabs open at all times with Palin tweets... one from Sarah, one from her duaghter... and another Palin claiming to be a long lost lover of both mother and duaghter.

And then on the mini-TV here on my desk, I have the Palin Cable News Channel (a subsidiary of Fox News).

I am also working on a sequel treatment to her Alaska reality show called "Dancing with the Bull Moose."

All Palin all the time.

369 b_sharp  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:20:04pm

I'm not sure I should admit I'm here.

370 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:20:22pm

re: #366 wozzablog

don't be a dummy be a smarty...come on join the Nazi party...

LOL

371 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:20:43pm

re: #366 wozzablog

don't be a dummy be a smarty...come on join the Nazi party...

Its "don't be stupid"

372 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:20:47pm

re: #360 Dreggas

this is freaking cool.

On a related note - Cat vs Alligator

373 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:20:52pm

re: #302 albusteve

Hey babe suck my long one!

374 cliffster  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:21:03pm

re: #353 negativ

You'd like that, wouldn't you, you fucking Nazi.

///

someone here - I think it was prairie - told me that I had my wife chopped up and in the freezer since 2003, or something like that. That takes some cojones.. gotta be pretty sure cliffster has a sense of humor. Fortunately I laughed my ass off. Then went to the freezer for a frozen burrito.

375 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:21:21pm

re: #368 Walter L. Newton

Let's check our tweets. I have three tweet tabs open at all times with Palin tweets... one from Sarah, one from her duaghter... and another Palin claiming to be a long lost lover of both mother and duaghter.

And then on the mini-TV here on my desk, I have the Palin Cable News Channel (a subsidiary of Fox News).

I am also working on a sequel treatment to her Alaska reality show called "Dancing with the Bull Moose."

All Palin all the time.

call me the instant you get any news

376 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:21:42pm

re: #345 Jimmah

Always love your music posts!
*smooch*
(from a long way away, Ice can do the deed!)

377 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:21:47pm

re: #375 albusteve

call me the instant you get any news

I will.

378 SteveC  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:21:54pm

This is from a friend's blog...

Shadowing my Son's Heart Surgeon

When I asked Dr. Bleiweis over the summer if I could follow him around at work some time, I assumed I would observe him making rounds in the pediatric intensive care unit at Shands Children’s Hospital in Gainesville...I did not think I would step into his operating room.

379 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:21:59pm

re: #372 Jimmah

On a related note - Cat vs Alligator


[Video]

OT, how's life treating you guys?

380 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:21:59pm

re: #373 LudwigVanQuixote

Hey babe suck my long one!

excuse me?....I'm not gay

381 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:22:01pm

Steve is a babe,...and a Nazi too!

382 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:23:36pm

re: #381 The Shadow Do

Steve is a babe,...and a Nazi too!

I'm a gay Nazi babe from Bigotville, and I'm emotionally compromised

383 SteveC  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:25:22pm

re: #382 albusteve

I'm a gay Nazi babe from Bigotville, and I'm emotionally compromised

We have a WINNAH!

384 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:26:14pm

re: #363 wrenchwench

I am trying to give the impression that there is also more than one flavor of not-feminist. I'm not an anti-feminist. I don't hate women. I don't think men are better (nor worse).

I think maybe ice & others may have assumed you meant that you were against the dictionary definition of feminism, i.e. equal political, economic, and social rights for women. Is that what you meant?

385 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:26:43pm

re: #372 Jimmah

What are those silly people thinking?
Cat will get eated, sooner or later.

386 SteveC  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:26:52pm

Crappy Satellite...

The goal is, to put it bluntly, to see if Shewanella can convert astronaut feces into hydrogen for use in onboard fuel cells.

387 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:27:23pm

re: #367 The Shadow Do

Trust me on this. We are worse.

I could argue, but I'll just say that's a generous sentiment form someone in your (recent) situation.

388 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:28:36pm

re: #375 albusteve

call me the instant you get any news

re: #377 Walter L. Newton

I will.

No, please, call me first. I insist. I desperately need the drama and Steve has already said it's beneath him, so I'm sure he won't mind.

389 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:28:36pm

re: #385 Floral Giraffe

What are those silly people thinking?
Cat will get eated, sooner or later.

Not today.

[Link: news.nationalgeographic.com...]

390 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:29:16pm

re: #384 CuriousLurker

I think maybe ice & others may have assumed you meant that you were against the dictionary definition of feminism, i.e. equal political, economic, and social rights for women. Is that what you meant?

Of course not.

It doesn't matter to ice what I meant, or she might have asked me. She doesn't like me. I don't recall why, but she treats me like shit. There might be a reason for it.

391 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:29:39pm

re: #306 CuriousLurker

Ludwig? I know your heart's in the right place, but it's a woman thing. We're sensitive about stuff like that, even if when we really, really dislike the woman it's being said about.

It isn't about like or dislike. It is about the simple fact that you either stand for the notion of competent women who get places because of their talent or you are ok with those who use their bodies to try to exploit is.

And Ice I just saw your comment. I am with you about blaming her fanbois for only seeing women in that light. However, she goes out for her way to exploit is. She, by one of her former female staffers, is reported to say she was "wearing her push up bra because that is how she gets what she wants."

I feel it is wrong of you to not call her more to task for it. I also am shocked how you give her a pass for promoting her own position over other women.

Finally there is a man thing that some of the women would be well off understanding.

Whenever a woman we find repugnant morally, gets flirty with us, we don't get attracted, rather we become insulted and repulsed.

392 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:29:42pm

re: #379 researchok

OT, how's life treating you guys?

So well we feel like we have gotten away with something.

Ice says 'Hi' :D

393 b_sharp  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:30:07pm

Now that the shit has hit the fan multiple times, who gets to clean it up?

394 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:30:07pm

re: #389 jamesfirecat

LOL!

395 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:30:21pm

re: #357 WindUpBird

This is how I roll

[Link: www.myspace.com...]

feminism should be fucking loud

and full of envy.

396 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:30:31pm

re: #388 CuriousLurker

re: #377 Walter L. Newton

No, please, call me first. I insist. I desperately need the drama and Steve has already said it's beneath him, so I'm sure he won't mind.

Ok... and I'll send you the treatment to the "Dancing with the Bull Moose" as soon as I finish the first draft.

397 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:30:47pm

re: #385 Floral Giraffe

What are those silly people thinking?
Cat will get eated, sooner or later.

Not to mention the kids!

398 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:31:17pm

re: #371 jamesfirecat

Its "don't be stupid"

True. Although mine scans better................

the whole song and dance is on youtube :p

399 SteveC  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:31:23pm

re: #393 b_sharp

Now that the shit has hit the fan multiple times, who gets to clean it up?

*Lizards start pointing at each other*

400 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:31:43pm

re: #374 cliffster

someone here - I think it was prairie - told me that I had my wife chopped up and in the freezer since 2003, or something like that. That takes some cojones.. gotta be pretty sure cliffster has a sense of humor. Fortunately I laughed my ass off. Then went to the freezer for a frozen burrito.

Don't blame that on prarie. I'm pretty sure it was me.

Either way, I don't worry too much about offending humorless people. My credo is Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke. Honestly, it's a harder article of faith to follow than one might think, and I fail from time to time, but I do try.

401 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:31:55pm

re: #392 Jimmah

So well we feel like we have gotten away with something.

Ice says 'Hi' :D

Good to hear.

Please tell ice as usual, she's wrong, I absolutely disagree and she backed the wrong candidate.
/

402 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:32:01pm

re: #306 CuriousLurker

PIMF

It isn't about like or dislike. It is about the simple fact that you either stand for the notion of competent women who get places because of their talent or you are ok with those who use their bodies to try to exploit their sexuality.

And Ice, I just saw your comment. I am with you about blaming her fanbois for only seeing women in that light. However, she goes out for her way to exploit it. She, by one of her former female staffers, is reported to say she was "wearing her push up bra because that is how she gets what she wants."

I feel it is wrong of you to not call her more to task for it. I also am shocked how you give her a pass for promoting her own position over other women.

Finally there is a man thing that some of the women would be well off understanding.

Whenever a woman we find repugnant morally, gets flirty with us, we don't get attracted, rather we become insulted and repulsed.

403 b_sharp  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:32:08pm

re: #399 SteveC

*Lizards start pointing at each other*

About what I expected.

404 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:32:32pm

re: #393 b_sharp

Now that the shit has hit the fan multiple times, who gets to clean it up?

Well, it's time for me to go home and---scoop the litter box. It will be symbolic.

Later, lizards.

405 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:33:09pm

re: #394 Floral Giraffe

LOL!

Knew you'd grow to like me sooner or later.

406 b_sharp  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:33:37pm

re: #404 wrenchwench

Well, it's time for me to go home and---scoop the litter box. It will be symbolic.

Later, lizards.

Don't run away because I showed up. I did take a shower last week.

407 cliffster  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:33:51pm

re: #400 negativ

Don't blame that on prarie. I'm pretty sure it was me.

Either way, I don't worry too much about offending humorless people. My credo is Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke. Honestly, it's a harder article of faith to follow than one might think, and I fail from time to time, but I do try.

hehe, maybe it was you. you damn nazi

408 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:34:57pm

re: #387 wrenchwench

I could argue, but I'll just say that's a generous sentiment form someone in your (recent) situation.

I had 29 years to make the woman miserable. Not my intent by any means but I guess it worked that way.

/truth is I am heartbroken and was so dumb I could not see her pain clearly until it was too late. Men are stupid in this regard. At least this one is. I craved her happiness but that means nothing really.

409 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:35:03pm

re: #390 wrenchwench

Yeah imagine anyone thinking that what you meant by 'feminism' was 'feminism'.

Of course not.

It doesn't matter to ice what I meant, or she might have asked me. She doesn't like me. I don't recall why, but she treats me like shit. There might be a reason for it.

That's just whiny bullshit now, wrench. Just drop it already.

410 Gus  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:35:41pm

Grumble. Damn black out.

411 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:35:56pm

re: #390 wrenchwench

Of course not.

I didn't think so. What did you mean, if you don't mind saying? Just curious. If you'd rather not get into details, I understand.

It doesn't matter to ice what I meant, or she might have asked me. She doesn't like me. I don't recall why, but she treats me like shit. There might be a reason for it.

I didn't realize you guys had a history, so I'll just leave that part alone.

412 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:36:21pm

re: #410 Gus 802

Grumble. Damn black out.

That was God talking to you.

Welcome back.

413 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:36:32pm

soooooooooo............... back to law&order it is then......

414 laZardo  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:36:38pm

Feminism is why I visit 4chan.

///NOT ENOUGH SLASHES ALLOWED BY CHARACTER SPAM FILTER TO PROPERLY EXPRESS HOW SARCASTIC THAT IS.

415 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:37:00pm

re: #293 CuriousLurker

I think the point everyone's trying to make (and the reason I didn't up-ding that particular comment) is that women are too often attacked based on their physical appearance rather than the merits (or lack thereof) of what they have to say.

That a significant part of Palin's allure may very well be her physical attractiveness doesn't take the sting out of it for other women.

So then why don't you hate her back as much as she hates you?

416 Gus  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:38:07pm

re: #412 researchok

That was God talking to you.

Welcome back.

Thanks. It was pitch black in here. Well, after I blew out the candle and tried to take a nap. Then I started playing games with my eyes in the darkness making cloud formations and landscapes in a tiny portion of my retina.

417 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:39:11pm

re: #396 Walter L. Newton

Ok... and I'll send you the treatment to the "Dancing with the Bull Moose" as soon as I finish the first draft.

Great, sounds like a winner.

418 laZardo  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:39:17pm

And speaking of allure, my college finally got around to filtering out 4chan as porn.

The irony is, they only "filtered" the boards that aren't porn. :3

419 b_sharp  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:39:17pm

re: #416 Gus 802

Thanks. It was pitch black in here. Well, after I blew out the candle and tried to take a nap. Then I started playing games with my eyes in the darkness making cloud formations and landscapes in a tiny portion of my retina.

There are other things you can play with in the dark that are more fun.

420 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:39:30pm

re: #410 Gus 802

Grumble. Damn black out.

Careful what you are saying... news is reporting the outage boundaries ... the black helicopters will have your location pinpointed in no time

421 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:39:32pm

re: #416 Gus 802

Then I started playing games with my eyes in the darkness making cloud formations and landscapes in a tiny portion of my retina.

You want a strobe light for that. Most effective from what I hear. ;-)

422 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:40:14pm

re: #416 Gus 802

Thanks. It was pitch black in here. Well, after I blew out the candle and tried to take a nap. Then I started playing games with my eyes in the darkness making cloud formations and landscapes in a tiny portion of my retina.

Your neighbor said you were huddled in a corner and crying out for a Republican to come and save you.

A TEA PARTY Republican.

423 laZardo  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:40:25pm

re: #416 Gus 802

Then I started playing games with my eyes in the darkness making cloud formations and landscapes in a tiny portion of my retina.

Keep your fetishes to yourself.

/ :B

424 Gus  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:40:26pm

re: #419 b_sharp

There are other things you can play with in the dark that are more fun.

Thwack!

425 Gus  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:42:27pm

re: #422 researchok

Your neighbor said you were huddled in a corner and crying out for a Republican to come and save you.

A TEA PARTY Republican.

No more tea! I've been drinking tea all week. Decaf no less. Best thing about it though is that I can sleep longer or more easily.

426 b_sharp  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:42:46pm

re: #424 Gus 802

Thwack!

Sorry, I didn't realize I said that out loud.

427 KingKenrod  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:43:15pm

re: #146 LudwigVanQuixote

Sarah, like all bullies who know they are pathetic losers, fronts tough, but has that thin skin because they know that on the inside, they got nothing. They whine like bitches when you even hint they are less than perfect. An actual discussion of their many many failures sends them into conniptions.

So just for the fun of it, I write the following:

Dear Sarah,

Sarah, you are possibly the dumbest person I have ever seen in my lifetime run for major office. That is saying a ot given your competition. You are a craven opportunist who ran out on her own people. You have a reputation for being a cutting, lying, vindictive, backstabbing bitch in your own party, and as those investigations you ran from would have shown.

Your education is lacking by the standards of a competent 5th grader. Everything about you is a fraud and you were only ever thrust into office because the powers that be thought you were a balance to Hillary. You exist as a political entity because you own breasts and Rupert Murdoch sells your body, the same way he sells every other air headed slut he has on Fox.

And let's get real. You are getting older. Those breasts of yours have got to be sagging a bit. Most ladies have other assets than that. Most ladies are so much more than their bodies. For you though, this must be a threat. Because let's face it, that is your only asset, and it is far outclassed by many who are younger and prettier. Everything else you have is a fraud or a lie full of no accomplishments you earned. You were made by others into what you are today and you are ambitious enough to run with it and think it is yours.

Don't even get me started on your odious throwback values or the fact that you have never had an ideal of your own in your life. Well other than Sarah comes first of course.

Yours, with utter contempt,
Ludwig

Why would a rational person spend time thinking out cruel fantasies like this? Even if she is despicable and deserves it?

428 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:44:10pm

re: #425 Gus 802

No more tea! I've been drinking tea all week. Decaf no less. Best thing about it though is that I can sleep longer or more easily.

Decaf??

MAN UP, LIBERAL!

429 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:44:57pm

re: #428 researchok

Decaf??

MAN UP, LIBERAL!

I'm going through caffeine withdrawal and have a headache that won't quit.

430 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:44:58pm

re: #307 wrenchwench

Palin was not put in the position of VP candidate because she has breasts, unless by that you mean because she's a woman, in which case you have a very narrow view of womanhood. She was selected for her so-con cred.

She was selected because the GOP needed a woman to balance Hilary. They wanted one they thought was attractive to show better on the air. Were there no other GOP women with more Cred? What about actual experience? What about any qualification for the job - though to be fair, the modern GOP really doesn't run qualified men either.

Her SoCon cred extended where exactly? No one outside of Alaska had heard of her before she was anointed by Murdoch et al.

Since then she has been an utter blight on the very word feminist - in addition to everything else.

She was most absolutely chosen because the GOP thought that American women would see another woman and vote just for that.

Since then, much like any other painted Fox bimbo, she has played her part always angling for no one but herself. When I say her breasts are her only asset I am being literal?

Do you mean to speak of her brains? Or her talent? Or her competence? She has none of those. All she is is a hateful woman who knows how to rally a crowd - after she was put there because she was younger than the other GOP women, better looking and has breasts.

431 laZardo  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:45:28pm

re: #427 KingKenrod

Why would a rational person spend time thinking out cruel fantasies like this? Even if she is despicable and deserves it?

For the lulz, that's why.

432 Gus  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:45:54pm

re: #426 b_sharp

Sorry, I didn't realize I said that out loud.

For some strange reason I started looking at my hand and thinking about all the things we've accomplished as a species with our hands. Art, music, writing, communication, and more. Eventually I thought, OK, maybe we can accomplish sex with the hand too. Before that I though, "hey we have five digits in each hand and if we connect the 'dot' it forms a pentagram." We're off the devil!!11ty

433 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:46:01pm

re: #429 PT Barnum

I'm going through caffeine withdrawal and have a headache that won't quit.

Starbucks triple shot.

434 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:46:21pm

re: #433 researchok

Starbucks triple shot.

6 pack of Red Bull

435 engineer cat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:46:31pm

re: #382 albusteve

I'm a gay Nazi babe from Bigotville, and I'm emotionally compromised

"i'm a nazi babe from bigotville and i'm driving in your lane
i'm gay and full of methedrine, and chasing the midnight train
i'll rape your only daughter, but only if she's white
then we'll read the bible, burn a cross, and have a hell of a saturday night

i'm real upset right now because i saw a negro in a suit
i never finished high school and i don't give a hoot
what your snooty scientists found or what your buddy darwin saw
i'll vote for the next republican who'll repeal the evolution law"

436 Gus  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:47:00pm

re: #428 researchok

Decaf??

MAN UP, LIBERAL!

This is my reserve tea from something my mom and dad sent me a while back. Heck, I'd rather have cigarettes than caffeine.

437 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:47:03pm

re: #367 The Shadow Do

Trust me on this. We are worse.

In the early 90s, I worked at a very busy Office Depot. Everyone who worked the closing shift was on a rotation of janitorial duty. This meant a crew of 3 or 4 people were assigned to mopping the floor, dusting the places nobody ever touched, Windexing the windows, and cleaning the bathrooms.

I've seen some life-changingly traumatic things in public mens' rooms before, but never with such frequency as the times I had to clean the womens' room. Most common were used tampons on the floor when there's a lined trash can specifically to accommodate that contingency 9 inches away were the most common. But by FAR the worst were the rare but horrific occurrences of piss and shit ALL OVER THE FUCKING STALL, as though the responsible party's ass was one of those lawn sprinklers that mechanically distributes water in a 360 degree radius.

For the longest time, I thought that someone, perhaps an employee, was a completely depraved lunatic doing it on purpose, out of an extremely Freudian expression of anger for whatever reason. Years later, I learned from an actual female-type person, that it's apparently common for some women to feel so grossed out by sitting on a public toilet seat that they sort of "hover" over it, and of course many of them have no aim whatsoever.

And apparently, some person or persons were either too lazy or too hateful to clean up their ungodly septic nightmare.

438 b_sharp  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:48:08pm

re: #432 Gus 802

For some strange reason I started looking at my hand and thinking about all the things we've accomplished as a species with our hands. Art, music, writing, communication, and more. Eventually I thought, OK, maybe we can accomplish sex with the hand too. Before that I though, "hey we have five digits in each hand and if we connect the 'dot' it forms a pentagram." We're off the devil!!11ty

You are a sick man, and I'm honoured to call you friend. But only on Thursdays, my dance card is full the rest of the week.

439 laZardo  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:48:23pm

re: #436 Gus 802

This is my reserve tea from something my mom and dad sent me a while back. Heck, I'd rather have cigarettes than caffeine.

DON'T LET THE TOBACCO COMPANIES CHAIN YOU TO THEIR PRODUCT.

/i go to a college full of chainsmoking wannabe rockstars. the vendetta runs deep

440 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:48:26pm

re: #372 Jimmah

On a related note - Cat vs Alligator


[Video]

WTF? Ow are those cats not dead? And what's with the people letting their kids walk around a couple of feet from a fucking alligator?

441 darthstar  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:48:28pm

re: #427 KingKenrod

Why would a rational person spend time thinking out cruel fantasies like this? Even if she is despicable and deserves it?

Yeah, leave Sarah Kardashian alone! I mean, leave Sarah Octomom alone! I mean, leave Sarah Balloon Boy's dad's lover alone!

Aw, fuck it. Leave mama grifter alone!

442 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:48:37pm

re: #437 negativ

Mebbe they went to the Waffle House and had it smothered and covered but it came out scattered and splattered....

Okay...okay...stop throwing things....I apologize

443 darthstar  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:48:49pm

re: #440 Talking Point Detective

WTF? Ow are those cats not dead? And what's with the people letting their kids walk around a couple of feet from a fucking alligator?

They were all out of crocodiles?

444 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:48:54pm

re: #427 KingKenrod

good question...many have wondered that

445 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:49:55pm

re: #410 Gus 802

Grumble. Damn black out.

Electricity, or alcohol?

446 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:50:18pm

re: #430 LudwigVanQuixote

She was selected because the GOP needed a woman to balance Hilary. They wanted one they thought was attractive to show better on the air. Were there no other GOP women with more Cred? What about actual experience? What about any qualification for the job - though to be fair, the modern GOP really doesn't run qualified men either.

Her SoCon cred extended where exactly? No one outside of Alaska had heard of her before she was anointed by Murdoch et al.

Since then she has been an utter blight on the very word feminist - in addition to everything else.

She was most absolutely chosen because the GOP thought that American women would see another woman and vote just for that.

Since then, much like any other painted Fox bimbo, she has played her part always angling for no one but herself. When I say her breasts are her only asset I am being literal?

Do you mean to speak of her brains? Or her talent? Or her competence? She has none of those. All she is is a hateful woman who knows how to rally a crowd - after she was put there because she was younger than the other GOP women, better looking and has breasts.

Okay, you've used up your quota of the word breasts for one evening.

wrenchwench does have a point with regards to Palin's so called so-con creds. I have to believe that if Olympia Snowe, Susan Collins, or Elizabeth Dole were more conservative they might have gotten the nod. It's not all about youth and good looks, that's just a huge part of it.

447 blueraven  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:50:25pm

re: #109 The Shadow Do

It happens.

And again, the guy in question was not necessarily innocent. I don't have all the evidence presented at trial and I am guessing you don't either.

That's just effed up. No, the hair found to be the victims doesn't prove he was innocent, but that's not the test, is it? Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt is the standard. The man is dead based on evidence that was later proved inaccurate. Don't you get it? He is dead. He might have been innocent.

448 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:50:29pm

re: #437 negativ

In the early 90s, I worked at a very busy Office Depot. Everyone who worked the closing shift was on a rotation of janitorial duty. This meant a crew of 3 or 4 people were assigned to mopping the floor, dusting the places nobody ever touched, Windexing the windows, and cleaning the bathrooms.

I've seen some life-changingly traumatic things in public mens' rooms before, but never with such frequency as the times I had to clean the womens' room. Most common were used tampons on the floor when there's a lined trash can specifically to accommodate that contingency 9 inches away were the most common. But by FAR the worst were the rare but horrific occurrences of piss and shit ALL OVER THE FUCKING STALL, as though the responsible party's ass was one of those lawn sprinklers that mechanically distributes water in a 360 degree radius.

For the longest time, I thought that someone, perhaps an employee, was a completely depraved lunatic doing it on purpose, out of an extremely Freudian expression of anger for whatever reason. Years later, I learned from an actual female-type person, that it's apparently common for some women to feel so grossed out by sitting on a public toilet seat that they sort of "hover" over it, and of course many of them have no aim whatsoever.

And apparently, some person or persons were either too lazy or too hateful to clean up their ungodly septic nightmare.

For the 8 years I worked part time at the live theatre I mentioned in the past, and for the two years I worked full time there, I cleaned the restrooms, besides running the tech for the shows.

We called that a "shit bomb." Typical of a live theatre, there was a good majority of older citizens attending the shows. Hard for some of those older folks with digestive problems to hold it sometimes.

449 Gus  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:50:30pm

re: #439 laZardo

DON'T LET THE TOBACCO COMPANIES CHAIN YOU TO THEIR PRODUCT.

/i go to a college full of chainsmoking wannabe rockstars. the vendetta runs deep

I'm a victim of Big Tobacco! Actually I started by buying packs of Dunhills. Aren't they Little Tobacco?

450 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:50:52pm

For the RPGers that were in the conversation the other day about online Tabletops...check out Maptools at rptools.net Amazing!

We now return you to your regular thread about scats, cats, and spats...shoobee doobee doo..

451 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:50:56pm

re: #437 negativ

That does it. Doesn't get any worse than that!

The hover thing is true I think. Can't argue against that for sure though.

452 laZardo  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:51:55pm

re: #449 Gus 802

I'm a victim of Big Tobacco! Actually I started by buying packs of Dunhills. Aren't they Little Tobacco?

Dunhill is British American Tobacco. "Little" Tobacco is when you roll your own.

453 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:52:38pm

re: #451 The Shadow Do

That does it. Doesn't get any worse than that!

The hover thing is true I think. Can't argue against that for sure though.

I have this recurring nightmare where I'm in a highschool, really really need to go and all the restrooms look like they've been through an assplosion like that.

454 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:52:58pm

re: #452 laZardo

Dunhill is British American Tobacco. "Little" Tobacco is when you roll your own.

Don't bogart that joint my friend!

455 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:53:26pm

Huh. I should try proofreading and/or using preview one of these days.

456 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:53:43pm

re: #451 The Shadow Do

That does it. Doesn't get any worse than that!

The hover thing is true I think. Can't argue against that for sure though.

Hey Shadow..how are you doing? I was asking about you the other day...I know you had some domestic difficulties and was concerned... been there done that..have the legal papers.

457 researchok  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:54:09pm

re: #449 Gus 802

I'm a victim of Big Tobacco! Actually I started by buying packs of Dunhills. Aren't they Little Tobacco?

Nat Sherman is little tobacco- really little tobacco.

458 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:55:36pm

This is especially for any lizards in Louisiana:

Louisiana school science - your support needed please

We came out of this with the biggest victory for good science and common sense in Louisiana that we’ve had since 2002.

Unfortunately we have to fight this whole issue again in front of the BESE Board on Dec. 7th and 9th when the final decision gets made. Rather than being in front of a group of sympathetic educators, this time we will be fighting to convince a group of politicians that they should do what is best for the education of their students. That shouldn’t be so hard, should it?

We need all the support we can get and I’m hoping that everyone will tell their friends in Louisiana to come speak out at this meeting.

459 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:55:38pm

re: #429 PT Barnum

I'm going through caffeine withdrawal and have a headache that won't quit.

You might want to get your blood pressure checked, speaking from experience it might not be the caffeine.

460 darthstar  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:56:20pm

Rather than "opt out" day, where travellers refuse to get body-scanned and choose the new pat-downs which also have peoples' panties in a twist, why not have national "hard-on terror" day? Male travellers should put a hand in their pocket...put your hand in your pocket!...and turn on your lovelight. Grow that fucker as big as possible, and give the TSA agent behind the screen something to look at.

461 theheat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:56:48pm

re: #436 Gus 802

Rats. I discovered the cigars I ordered were the wrong brand, but right flavor. They taste like reindeer poop. I think they are reindeer poop. Good thing I only ordered a hundred of them.

[puts on reading glasses] Yes, I'm pretty sure they are reindeer poop. Right on the side of the box it says REINDEER SHIT FLAVORED CIGARS.

That's what I get for not putting my glasses on when I ordered. Sigh.

462 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:56:50pm

re: #402 LudwigVanQuixote

It isn't about like or dislike. It is about the simple fact that you either stand for the notion of competent women who get places because of their talent or you are ok with those who use their bodies to try to exploit their sexuality.

I feel it is wrong of you to not call her more to task for it. I also am shocked how you give her a pass for promoting her own position over other women.


If she has a position over other women, it only in her own head and that of her admirers. I'm not giving her a pass on anything, If she truly thinks that America will vote her into the White House based purely on her sex appeal, then I believe she's in for a rude awakening and will be more than happy to let her go on believing that. My point is that when you attack a woman based on her appearance, you create a knee-jerk sort of empathy for her in other women, even women who intensely dislike her.

I'm much more concerned with her her lying, spitefulness, religious attitudes, and demagoguery. Those things are a real danger, IMO.

Finally there is a man thing that some of the women would be well off understanding.

Whenever a woman we find repugnant morally, gets flirty with us, we don't get attracted, rather we become insulted and repulsed.

Of course there is. There are many (but not enough).

re: #415 LudwigVanQuixote

So then why don't you hate her back as much as she hates you?

Because then I become like her.

463 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:57:13pm

re: #459 goddamnedfrank

You might want to get your blood pressure checked, speaking from experience it might not be the caffeine.

I'm hypertensive but it's under control with meds...for the most part...I will check it now just to be safe though.

464 b_sharp  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:57:26pm

re: #460 darthstar

Rather than "opt out" day, where travellers refuse to get body-scanned and choose the new pat-downs which also have peoples' panties in a twist, why not have national "hard-on terror" day? Male travellers should put a hand in their pocket...put your hand in your pocket!...and turn on your lovelight. Grow that fucker as big as possible, and give the TSA agent behind the screen something to look at.

I have a little problem with that.

465 laZardo  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:57:34pm

re: #455 negativ

Huh. I should try proofreading and/or using preview one of these days.

PIYBFF4L.

466 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:58:07pm

Wow. Just freaking. Wow.

My dad's grave in a Google image search.

Apparently he is entombed behind a massive artwork.

467 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:58:11pm

re: #427 KingKenrod

Why would a rational person spend time thinking out cruel fantasies like this? Even if she is despicable and deserves it?

What there is fantasy? It is an accurate description of the reality.

468 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:58:59pm

re: #443 darthstar

They were all out of crocodiles?

rim shot.

469 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:59:12pm

re: #463 PT Barnum

I'm hypertensive but it's under control with meds...for the most part...I will check it now just to be safe though.

144/77 a little high but not horrible...I just ate Chinese so that may have something to do with it too...

470 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:59:18pm

re: #456 PT Barnum

Hey Shadow..how are you doing? I was asking about you the other day...I know you had some domestic difficulties and was concerned... been there done that..have the legal papers.

Hanging in. Totally confused though. She is gone along with my life's savings but I continue to make the joint mortgage and her car payments. Also the premiums on the big old life policy I took out so she would not retire as a "bag lady". I am some kind of dumb...but still in love. What a maroon.

Thanks

471 theheat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:59:31pm

re: #466 Alouette

Wow. Looks like a good place to be to me.

472 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 5:59:44pm

re: #462 CuriousLurker

If she has a position over other women, it only in her own head and that of her admirers. I'm not giving her a pass on anything, If she truly thinks that America will vote her into the White House based purely on her sex appeal, then I believe she's in for a rude awakening and will be more than happy to let her go on believing that. My point is that when you attack a woman based on her appearance, you create a knee-jerk sort of empathy for her in other women, even women who intensely dislike her.

I'm much more concerned with her her lying, spitefulness, religious attitudes, and demagoguery. Those things are a real danger, IMO.

Of course there is. There are many (but not enough).

re: #415 LudwigVanQuixote

Because then I become like her.

exactly..anything less makes no sense, but plenty of people here will deny it....what's worse than Palin herself?... misogynist rants about her

473 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:00:07pm

re: #461 theheat

Rats. I discovered the cigars I ordered were the wrong brand, but right flavor. They taste like reindeer poop. I think they are reindeer poop. Good thing I only ordered a hundred of them.

[puts on reading glasses] Yes, I'm pretty sure they are reindeer poop. Right on the side of the box it says REINDEER SHIT FLAVORED CIGARS.

That's what I get for not putting my glasses on when I ordered. Sigh.

How do you know what reindeer poop tastes like? Care to let us know?

474 jaunte  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:00:15pm

re: #460 darthstar

Rather than "opt out" day, where travellers refuse to get body-scanned and choose the new pat-downs which also have peoples' panties in a twist, why not have national "hard-on terror" day? Male travellers should put a hand in their pocket...put your hand in your pocket!...and turn on your lovelight. Grow that fucker as big as possible, and give the TSA agent behind the screen something to look at.

Image: harry_shearer_this_is_spinal_tap_001.jpg

475 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:00:30pm

re: #459 goddamnedfrank

You might want to get your blood pressure checked, speaking from experience it might not be the caffeine.

Quite Concur.

476 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:01:21pm

re: #475 Dark_Falcon

Quite Concur.

and consider coagulation factors....I didn't and lost a leg

477 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:02:00pm

re: #470 The Shadow Do

Hanging in. Totally confused though. She is gone along with my life's savings but I continue to make the joint mortgage and her car payments. Also the premiums on the big old life policy I took out so she would not retire as a "bag lady". I am some kind of dumb...but still in love. What a maroon.

Thanks

I know when my first wife left it took me a good long while to finally let go and realize that I wasn't entirely responsible for her issues. Hang in there, it does get better.

478 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:02:29pm

re: #453 PT Barnum

I have this recurring nightmare where I'm in a highschool, really really need to go and all the restrooms look like they've been through an assplosion like that.

My former inlaws' kid once suffered what we should call a catastrophic failure of the blowout preventer while in the middle of a diaper change. In the back seat of a rental car. I don't know how (or even whether) they remediated that situation.

Every parent I've ever known has at least one fecal horror story. That's just another reason why I feel very lucky to have enough self-awareness to realize that I'd be a terrible parent.

479 theheat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:03:04pm

re: #473 PT Barnum

How do you know what reindeer poop tastes like? Care to let us know?


I've smelled it. It tastes like reindeer poop smells. I have about 99 left if you'd like to see what reindeer poop tastes like, without actually getting down in the dirt and smoking the real thing. Care to try one?

They were supposed to be vanilla. This disappoints me greatly.

480 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:03:13pm

re: #476 albusteve

and consider coagulation factors...I didn't and lost a leg

Not to worry quite so much..the headache only started tonight. I've been a little haphazard about taking one of my SSRIs and this is a frequent result...

481 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:03:51pm

re: #472 albusteve

Wow steve, so then maybe you would stop defending your buddy Walter for calling Ice a whore. You really just crossed the line with me. That was too much hypocrisy even for a washed out POS like you.

482 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:04:41pm

re: #402 LudwigVanQuixote

Many women, aren't just quite comfortable, 100% all the way turtles down, that they are as competent as they really are. It's, I think, a generational issue, and hopefully the kids of my generation will be more solidly comfortable that is is about mental and physical competence. And not need to rely (as Sarah Palin has) on physical manipulation. This issue has a LOT in common with the issue of "gays" and of "color". It's tremendously about confidence, education, and Society's perceived values.

Oh, and, we've come a LONG WAY BABY!

483 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:04:52pm

re: #476 albusteve

and consider coagulation factors...I didn't and lost a leg

You need a parrot? I have two as a result of a broken marriage. My conversation at home these days is limited to "Polly want a cracker?" and "Hello!". You really need a parrot, no?

484 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:04:56pm

re: #462 CuriousLurker

CL, you are supposed to hate evil.

485 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:05:10pm

re: #481 LudwigVanQuixote

Wow steve, so then maybe you would stop defending your buddy Walter for calling Ice a whore. You really just crossed the line with me. That was too much hypocrisy even for a washed out POS like you.

Where did Walter say that? I just got here.

486 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:05:32pm

re: #482 Floral Giraffe

Many women, aren't just quite comfortable, 100% all the way turtles down, that they are as competent as they really are. It's, I think, a generational issue, and hopefully the kids of my generation will be more solidly comfortable that is is about mental and physical competence. And not need to rely (as Sarah Palin has) on physical manipulation. This issue has a LOT in common with the issue of "gays" and of "color". It's tremendously about confidence, education, and Society's perceived values.

Oh, and, we've come a LONG WAY BABY!

That was a fabulous post Floral.

487 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:05:34pm

re: #481 LudwigVanQuixote

Wow steve, so then maybe you would stop defending your buddy Walter for calling Ice a whore. You really just crossed the line with me. That was too much hypocrisy even for a washed out POS like you.

don't know about Walter...as for crossing your lines, what makes you think I give a damn?....when you are wrong you attack, nothing new

488 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:05:45pm

Does anyone know the popular twitter hashtags for food?

489 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:05:56pm

re: #478 negativ

My former inlaws' kid once suffered what we should call a catastrophic failure of the blowout preventer while in the middle of a diaper change. In the back seat of a rental car. I don't know how (or even whether) they remediated that situation.

Every parent I've ever known has at least one fecal horror story. That's just another reason why I feel very lucky to have enough self-awareness to realize that I'd be a terrible parent.

The Mrs and I used to refer to TDS (Toxic Diaper Syndrome) Lactose Intolerant baby before we figured it out...look at the colors!!!!

Course I came up with the diaper changing song:

(to the tune of My Darling Clementine)

Got a Diaper Got a Diaper
Got a Diaper full of Poop
Got Such a poopy diaper
gotta clean it with a scoop.

Hey..kept me from inhaling...

490 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:06:06pm

re: #485 Dark_Falcon

Where did Walter say that? I just got here.

He said it a while ago. Ice and Jimmah certainly haven't forgotten.

491 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:06:22pm

re: #461 theheat

Rats. I discovered the cigars I ordered were the wrong brand, but right flavor. They taste like reindeer poop. I think they are reindeer poop. Good thing I only ordered a hundred of them.

[puts on reading glasses] Yes, I'm pretty sure they are reindeer poop. Right on the side of the box it says REINDEER SHIT FLAVORED CIGARS.

That's what I get for not putting my glasses on when I ordered. Sigh.

Back in my smoking days, my father in law used to occasionally gift me with a handful of $10 cigars. Some were nice, most were awful, and none of them were as good as that perennial gas station staple, Swisher Sweets with the wooden tip. They're probably made from poison ivy leaves and recycled Soviet surplus newspapers, but they were tasty.

492 b_sharp  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:07:03pm

Too much shit.

G'night folks.

493 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:07:06pm

re: #487 albusteve

don't know about Walter...as for crossing your lines, what makes you think I give a damn?...when you are wrong you attack, nothing new

Ahh the Stevo waltz has been engaged, after getting called on his bullshit he writes about his indifference.... You are much too predictable to be any fun anymore Stevo.

494 Interesting Times  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:07:51pm

re: #462 CuriousLurker

My point is that when you attack a woman based on her appearance, you create a knee-jerk sort of empathy for her in other women, even women who intensely dislike her.

...which is all the more ironic when you consider that the harshest, most spiteful comments about a woman's appearance often come from...other women who dislike her (think back to high school and the catty "mean girl" gossip cliques, or Carly Failorina going off on Boxer's hair - and yes, her doing that just made me want Boxer to win all the more :P )

I do confess, though, that when a person is extraordinarily ugly on the inside, there's a part of me that can't help but feel schadenfreude when that ugliness starts to manifest itself externally, as well...

495 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:07:51pm

Off to watch some more Buffy, then bed.

Have a good one, folks.

496 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:07:58pm

re: #483 The Shadow Do

You need a parrot? I have two as a result of a broken marriage. My conversation at home these days is limited to "Polly want a cracker?" and "Hello!". You really need a parrot, no?

no I don't...but my wife and I divorced and parted ways temporarily and I was devastated..now we are the very best of friends again, and I still have a raging love for her...shit happens

497 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:08:15pm

re: #491 negativ

Back in my smoking days, my father in law used to occasionally gift me with a handful of $10 cigars. Some were nice, most were awful, and none of them were as good as that perennial gas station staple, Swisher Sweets with the wooden tip. They're probably made from poison ivy leaves and recycled Soviet surplus newspapers, but they were tasty.

Swisher Sweets....fishin cigars..keep the skeeters away

498 theheat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:08:41pm

re: #491 negativ

I was really loving the Black & Mild Cream (Vanilla) flavoreds. So I ordered BlackStone brand in Vanilla, thinking it was the Black & Milds. Black, cream, vanilla - it was all too confusing. Now I have 99 of the dreadful things left.

499 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:08:41pm

re: #437 negativ

Yes, I had stores in California, where the dressing rooms were used as restrooms. At some point, you just have to think "people are rude & gross" and get it cleaned up. There is no understanding it. At least, not for me.

500 Political Atheist  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:09:00pm

re: #236 LudwigVanQuixote

Well I'm not limiting my concern to death row cases, though that is the place to start. I'm trying to get a handle on the relative rarity of wrongful convictions. I threw out the few numbers I could find fast, in an effort (expecting to be challenged with better numbers) to get better numbers from someone more informed. We all want zero mistakes. Even with 100% DNA, that's not going to happen.

501 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:09:20pm

re: #469 PT Barnum

144/77 a little high but not horrible...I just ate Chinese so that may have something to do with it too...

Your systolic is a little high, diastolic is fine. If it's a tension headache then hot showers always helped me. I went into the ER a few years ago with a hypertensive crisis of 220/180, in retrospect I'm surprised they didn't call the bomb squad.

502 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:09:30pm

re: #494 publicityStunted

...which is all the more ironic when you consider that the harshest, most spiteful comments about a woman's appearance often come from...other women who dislike her (think back to high school and the catty "mean girl" gossip cliques, or Carly Failorina going off on Boxer's hair - and yes, her doing that just made me want Boxer to win all the more :P )

I do confess, though, that when a person is extraordinarily ugly on the inside, there's a part of me that can't help but feel schadenfreude when that ugliness starts to manifest itself externally, as well...

I do love your posts.

503 Gus  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:09:36pm

re: #488 Killgore Trout

Does anyone know the popular twitter hashtags for food?

[Link: hashtags.org...]

[Link: hashtags.org...]

[Link: hashtags.org...]

Main search page: [Link: hashtags.org...]

504 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:10:24pm

re: #495 Jimmah

Off to watch some more Buffy, then bed.

Have a good one, folks.

Take care to keep your claymore sharp if the vampires are about.

505 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:10:32pm

re: #501 goddamnedfrank

Your systolic is a little high, diastolic is fine. If it's a tension headache then hot showers always helped me. I went into the ER a few years ago with a hypertensive crisis of 220/180, in retrospect I'm surprised they didn't call the bomb squad.

It normally runs around 130/76 or so...taking two different meds for it..need to get off my fat patoo and start walking...and making all the other lifestyle changes..hard to get started though.

506 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:10:58pm

re: #496 albusteve

no I don't...but my wife and I divorced and parted ways temporarily and I was devastated..now we are the very best of friends again, and I still have a raging love for her...shit happens

I'm glad in an odd way that you found your way back to each other. Life is so curious. And fucking short.

507 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:11:01pm

re: #493 LudwigVanQuixote

Ahh the Stevo waltz has been engaged, after getting called on his bullshit he writes about his indifference... You are much too predictable to be any fun anymore Stevo.

then don't address me you weakling

508 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:11:20pm

From the NYT

LATIN AMERICA BASEBALL SWEATSHOPS!

In Latin America, American investors are rearing young baseball talent in the hope of turning a profit, reports the New York Times. Betting on the chance of multimillion-dollar contracts for baseball wunderkinds, investors are setting up training camps for promising young recruits in exchange for up to 50 percent of the players' bonuses if they hit the major league. Investors involved include titans of finance, government, and sport: New York hedge fund manager Brian Shapiro; Steve Swindal, formerly of the Yankees; former George W. Bush White House official Abel Guerra; and former U.S. Dominican Republic ambassador Hans Hertell are among those involved in the scheme. Critics say such training camps are an ethical minefield. With no oversight, they say, aspiring teenage players may be encouraged abuse steroids, lie about their age, and relinquish educational opportunities. "It's very disturbing that American investors would come in to profit from a system that exploits and discriminates against young children," said law professor David Fidler of Indiana University. Students at the training academies invariably abandon school for a chance at the big league, and conditions at the camps can verge on the prison-like. One camp called California Sports Management is ringed with barbed wire, which one coach said is "to make sure they [recruits] don't get out."

509 Gus  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:11:39pm

Ugh, just had a 30 second spat with certain family members over the phone.

BBL

510 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:12:39pm

re: #509 Gus 802

Ugh, just had a 30 second spat with certain family members over the phone.

BBL

oh...I thought you said 30 second spit at first..wondered how you managed that..

511 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:13:11pm

re: #501 goddamnedfrank

Your systolic is a little high, diastolic is fine. If it's a tension headache then hot showers always helped me. I went into the ER a few years ago with a hypertensive crisis of 220/180, in retrospect I'm surprised they didn't call the bomb squad.

very good...as for 220/180, all I can say is your arteries must be lined with steel....hypertension is the silent killer

512 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:13:37pm

re: #511 albusteve

but you knew that

513 Political Atheist  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:13:39pm

re: #322 The Shadow Do
re: #325 Killgore Trout
re: #334 cliffster
re: #328 wrenchwench
re: #338 CuriousLurker

Thanks very much to you all, and please wish her well. I pray Ohio juries are sharp as can be.

514 theheat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:14:32pm

re: #494 publicityStunted

I'm not taking any of my Sharpie eyebrows comments back. As far as I'm concerned, it's an accurate barometer of crazy of the gentler sex. And I am of the gentler sex. Camel toes, crazy eyebrows, inflatable duck lips, sky blue tranny eyeshadow, mini skirts on buffalo women - it's a manifestation of some inner crazy they harbor. It's also intentional, done deliberately, and transcends whatever looks they were or weren't born with.

515 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:14:53pm

re: #10 Talking Point Detective

Aside from that whole little torture detail, I'm still wondering whether or not anyone has any actual evidence that the outcome of the trial would have been different if this had been a military tribunal.
....

There was no "torture". Ahmed Ghailani was handled perfectly legally since enhanced interrogation techniques are allowable on military detainees. He wasn't waterboarded so the worst he faced was being put into stress positions and the belly slap. The president should be hammered with this. He made a political decision to put this case in front of a civilian judge and jury where the rules are entirely different and it blew up in their faces. Even worse they admitted that even if he were found completely innocent they were going to detain him forever anyway. Not only was this show a bad idea they told us the ending before it started. This entire episode was a naive farce.

Also, I noticed that the evidence the government wasn't allowed to use (since it was tainted by those enhanced interrogation techniques) was good, accurate evidence. The interrogation techniques worked which seems odd because I keep getting told "torture never works".

516 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:15:37pm

re: #501 goddamnedfrank

Your systolic is a little high, diastolic is fine. If it's a tension headache then hot showers always helped me. I went into the ER a few years ago with a hypertensive crisis of 220/180, in retrospect I'm surprised they didn't call the bomb squad.

ahahaha I just posted this quote to a friend of mine online who's a nurse and she said, and I quote

"HOLY MIGHTY FUCK"

What caused that? o_o

517 laZardo  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:16:21pm

re: #508 WindUpBird

From the NYT

LATIN AMERICA BASEBALL SWEATSHOPS!

Speaking of which, the Asian Games is going on right now and China is spamming the medal tally extra hard.

Note: Key numbers in bold.

518 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:16:39pm

re: #508 WindUpBird

From the NYT

LATIN AMERICA BASEBALL SWEATSHOPS!

That truly is an outrageous outrage.

519 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:16:46pm

re: #503 Gus 802

[Link: hashtags.org...]

[Link: hashtags.org...]

[Link: hashtags.org...]

Main search page: [Link: hashtags.org...]


Much thanks.

520 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:17:04pm

re: #518 Dark_Falcon

That truly is an outrageous outrage.

it's just so weird and freaky o_o

521 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:17:19pm

re: #486 LudwigVanQuixote

That was a fabulous post Floral.

Thank you Sir.
I believe it in my heart, to be the truth.

522 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:17:55pm

re: #516 WindUpBird

ahahaha I just posted this quote to a friend of mine online who's a nurse and she said, and I quote

"HOLY MIGHTY FUCK"

What caused that? o_o

Probably genetic, ruled idiopathic, my Dad had his crisis at the same age. Working violent crime scenes soon after a divorce and then finding out my ex wife was pregnant probably didn't help a whole lot though. There's a good reason I closed the book on that career path.

523 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:18:02pm

re: #516 WindUpBird

ahahaha I just posted this quote to a friend of mine online who's a nurse and she said, and I quote

"HOLY MIGHTY FUCK"

What caused that? o_o

indeed, not sustainable....one small weakspot and a blowout, c'ya

524 Interesting Times  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:18:38pm

re: #513 Rightwingconspirator

Thanks very much to you all, and please wish her well. I pray Ohio juries are sharp as can be.

I remember you talking about this before, and it was such a horrible story I couldn't summon up any words in response. Did the little girl survive? I pray she did and can recover as best as possible...

525 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:18:54pm

re: #515 RogueOne

There was no "torture". Ahmed Ghailani was handled perfectly legally since enhanced interrogation techniques are allowable on military detainees. He wasn't waterboarded so the worst he faced was being put into stress positions and the belly slap. The president should be hammered with this. He made a political decision to put this case in front of a civilian judge and jury where the rules are entirely different and it blew up in their faces. Even worse they admitted that even if he were found completely innocent they were going to detain him forever anyway. Not only was this show a bad idea they told us the ending before it started. This entire episode was a naive farce.

Also, I noticed that the evidence the government wasn't allowed to use (since it was tainted by those enhanced interrogation techniques) was good, accurate evidence. The interrogation techniques worked which seems odd because I keep getting told "torture never works".

Honestly, I favor the use of enhanced interrogation, but not the use of its products at trial. Some lines just shouldn't get crossed. You can play rough to keep bombs from going off, but not to secure a guilty verdict.

526 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:19:11pm

re: #522 goddamnedfrank

Probably genetic, ruled idiopathic, my Dad had his crisis at the same age. Working violent crime scenes soon after a divorce and then finding out my ex wife was pregnant probably didn't help a whole lot though. There's a good reason I closed the book on that career path.

Your life is probably about 40 to 50 times more interesting than mine, i think ._.

527 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:19:17pm

re: #508 WindUpBird

From the NYT

LATIN AMERICA BASEBALL SWEATSHOPS!

Smacks of sensationalism. No secret that the best young prospects are coming out of Latin America. Hell, take a look at major league rosters. Every MLB team has camps and scouts working there. Drugs are probably used at that level, but the testing at the MLB minor league level weeds it out pretty quickly these days (no testing limitations in the minors). This is a non-story.

528 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:19:53pm

re: #526 WindUpBird

Your life is probably about 40 to 50 times more interesting than mine, i think ._.

I know I find you terribly boring....


jus kidding

529 theheat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:19:56pm

re: #509 Gus 802

Ugh, just had a 30 second spat with certain family members over the phone.BBL

Updinged, for empathy.

530 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:20:28pm

re: #525 Dark_Falcon

Honestly, I favor the use of enhanced interrogation, but not the use of its products at trial. Some lines just shouldn't get crossed. You can play rough to keep bombs from going off, but not to secure a guilty verdict.

Dark... you just effectively said that you favor enhanced interrogation technique just for its own sake.....


Do you honestly think that you can torture ticking time bomb info out of someone?

531 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:20:35pm

re: #509 Gus 802

Ugh, just had a 30 second spat with certain family members over the phone.

BBL

You doing OK?
Consider moral support sent, from here,

532 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:21:26pm

re: #530 jamesfirecat

Dark... you just effectively said that you favor enhanced interrogation technique just for its own sake...

Do you honestly think that you can torture ticking time bomb info out of someone?

nothing ventured, nothing gained....why do you suppose you can't?

533 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:21:38pm

re: #498 theheat

I was really loving the Black & Mild Cream (Vanilla) flavoreds. So I ordered BlackStone brand in Vanilla, thinking it was the Black & Milds. Black, cream, vanilla - it was all too confusing. Now I have 99 of the dreadful things left.

The unquestionably most horrifying (alleged) tobacco product I ever encountered was something called (if I remember right) "Pennsylvania Dutch" cigarillos. They were pure evil, because they smelled wonderful. The taste, however, was something probably not otherwise experienced by people who are not hardcore necrophiliacs. They were the 2girls1cup of tobacco. I don't even know if they're still made. They probably violate the Geneva Conventions. Avoid at all costs.

534 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:21:39pm

re: #484 LudwigVanQuixote

CL, you are supposed to hate evil.

I do hate evil. I also know that evil is clever like a fox.

Let me clarify a little further: It's precisely because I feel that she lowers the bar where women's competence is concerned that I don't want other women feeling defensive of her, regardless of how irrational that feeling may or may not be. I cannot emphasize that enough.

IMO, she's a totally self-absorbed, vainglorious, fame-and-power-hungry oppportunist who shows little interest in the anything that doesn't directly benefit her. In a word, she's a grifter. She is ignorant but she isn't stupid. She knows damned well that she can flaunt her sexuality and then, when people attack her for it, sympathy is ginned up for her and she can pull out the violin and start playing the victim tune.

It is a feminine trick of the worst sort, and you are falling for it, my friend.

535 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:22:12pm

re: #525 Dark_Falcon

Honestly, I favor the use of enhanced interrogation, but not the use of its products at trial. Some lines just shouldn't get crossed. You can play rough to keep bombs from going off, but not to secure a guilty verdict.

This guy wasn't picked up by the FBI in Denver. He was a high value military target. We had a $5 million bounty on him. They had hunted him for years, we all know (as much as we can know) he's guilty as hell. If the verdict doesn't matter, since we're going to hold him forever anyway, then why go through a dog and pony show where you could actually lose. This was dumb. There's no way KSM ever sees a civilian trial now.

536 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:22:12pm

re: #527 The Shadow Do

Smacks of sensationalism. No secret that the best young prospects are coming out of Latin America. Hell, take a look at major league rosters. Every MLB team has camps and scouts working there. Drugs are probably used at that level, but the testing at the MLB minor league level weeds it out pretty quickly these days (no testing limitations in the minors). This is a non-story.


I'm more about the "barbed wire so the recruits can't leave", because that seems rather like something that would get you thrown in prison if you invested in it here. I don't give a shit about baseball, I haven't watched a whole baseball game in 14 years. They can drug themselves to infinity for all I care!

Something about people being, you know, imprisoned to play baseball, seems a bit wrong to me, maybe I'm wacky

537 laZardo  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:22:45pm

re: #525 Dark_Falcon

I favor the paint roller over the wide brush.

538 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:23:23pm

re: #528 albusteve

I know I find you terribly boring...

jus kidding

I really do basically just sit in one place and make stuff all day, it's fun! But not exciting

539 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:23:23pm

re: #530 jamesfirecat

Dark... you just effectively said that you favor enhanced interrogation technique just for its own sake...

Do you honestly think that you can torture ticking time bomb info out of someone?

No, I didn't. It's acceptable to use enhanced interrogation for national security purposes to gain intelligence on our enemies. It is not acceptable to use that intell at trial.

540 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:23:23pm

re: #509 Gus 802

Clapping your hands together LOUDLY is said to have a clearing effect on the space, in Fung Shui. It certainly clears my brain of distractions. Louder is better.

541 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:23:49pm

re: #532 albusteve

nothing ventured, nothing gained...why do you suppose you can't?

Because you have no way of fact checking the information in time.

If they lie their head off then you both stop torturing them and will waste time checking out a false lead that will insure bomb goes off before you start again.

542 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:24:29pm

re: #494 publicityStunted

...which is all the more ironic when you consider that the harshest, most spiteful comments about a woman's appearance often come from...other women who dislike her (think back to high school and the catty "mean girl" gossip cliques, or Carly Failorina going off on Boxer's hair - and yes, her doing that just made me want Boxer to win all the more :P )

And that is why I think it irks the rest of us women so much. Not only have we had to content with sexism from men, but also with "mean girl" cattiness form other women.

I do confess, though, that when a person is extraordinarily ugly on the inside, there's a part of me that can't help but feel schadenfreude when that ugliness starts to manifest itself externally, as well...

Same here, but I won't tell anyone if you don't. Deal? ;o)

543 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:24:45pm

re: #535 RogueOne

This guy wasn't picked up by the FBI in Denver. He was a high value military target. We had a $5 million bounty on him. They had hunted him for years, we all know (as much as we can know) he's guilty as hell. If the verdict doesn't matter, since we're going to hold him forever anyway, then why go through a dog and pony show where you could actually lose. This was dumb. There's no way KSM ever sees a civilian trial now.

BO and Holder have already promised the outcome for KSM...and he's not even been charged that I know of....American justice is whatever the powers that be make it....forget the phony platitudes and flag waving bravado....I've been railroaded myself

544 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:24:46pm

re: #535 RogueOne

This guy wasn't picked up by the FBI in Denver. He was a high value military target. We had a $5 million bounty on him. They had hunted him for years, we all know (as much as we can know) he's guilty as hell. If the verdict doesn't matter, since we're going to hold him forever anyway, then why go through a dog and pony show where you could actually lose. This was dumb. There's no way KSM ever sees a civilian trial now.

If we know he's guilty of hell than how can we possibly loose the dog and pony show?

545 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:25:50pm

re: #539 Dark_Falcon

No, I didn't. It's acceptable to use enhanced interrogation for national security purposes to gain intelligence on our enemies. It is not acceptable to use that intell at trial.

Dark, why do you trust that information?

546 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:26:11pm

re: #535 RogueOne

This guy wasn't picked up by the FBI in Denver. He was a high value military target. We had a $5 million bounty on him. They had hunted him for years, we all know (as much as we can know) he's guilty as hell. If the verdict doesn't matter, since we're going to hold him forever anyway, then why go through a dog and pony show where you could actually lose. This was dumb. There's no way KSM ever sees a civilian trial now.

That part I agree with.

547 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:26:18pm

re: #536 WindUpBird

I'm more about the "barbed wire so the recruits can't leave", because that seems rather like something that would get you thrown in prison if you invested in it here. I don't give a shit about baseball, I haven't watched a whole baseball game in 14 years. They can drug themselves to infinity for all I care!

Something about people being, you know, imprisoned to play baseball, seems a bit wrong to me, maybe I'm wacky

Barbed wire so recruits can't leave? Bullshit. Why would a recruit want to leave with millions at stake? More likely a measure to keep the baseball crazed populace there from swarming the facility - my guess of course.

548 theheat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:26:28pm

re: #533 negativ

Let me write that down and commit to memory. Note to self: make sure all future flavored cigar orders do not violate any international treaties and have nothing about Pennsylvania on them.

I think what I'm smoking comes a close second, though. I can't believe they're a tobacco product.

549 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:26:50pm

re: #515 RogueOne

There was no "torture". Ahmed Ghailani was handled perfectly legally since enhanced interrogation techniques are allowable on military detainees. He wasn't waterboarded so the worst he faced was being put into stress positions and the belly slap.

Define a "stress position".

The interrogation techniques worked which seems odd because I keep getting told "torture never works".

Of course it works. I'm not even a pro, but I can guarantee you that with an hour (and complete immunity to and and all criminal or civil penalties) I'm creative enough and to have you not only confess to killing Abraham Lincoln, but also sincerely meaning it. Wouldn't leave so much as a bruise.

550 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:26:53pm

re: #538 WindUpBird

I really do basically just sit in one place and make stuff all day, it's fun! But not exciting

I'm always interested in what others are up to...I could sit for hours and watch people work and produce....could be a plumber, might be an artist

551 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:27:13pm

re: #543 albusteve

BO and Holder have already promised the outcome for KSM...and he's not even been charged that I know of...American justice is whatever the powers that be make it...forget the phony platitudes and flag waving bravado...I've been railroaded myself

Hear, hear. Me too.

552 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:27:19pm

re: #547 The Shadow Do

Barbed wire so recruits can't leave? Bullshit. Why would a recruit want to leave with millions at stake? More likely a measure to keep the baseball crazed populace there from swarming the facility - my guess of course.

Are you from the New York Times is full of evil and lies camp? I just want to know where the origin point is

553 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:27:48pm

re: #540 Floral Giraffe

Clapping your hands together LOUDLY is said to have a clearing effect on the space, in Fung Shui. It certainly clears my brain of distractions. Louder is better.

my shotgun has that same effect

554 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:27:56pm

re: #545 jamesfirecat

Dark, why do you trust that information?

You work to verify it, you don't put too much trust in it. The interrogation gives you a framework you try to build on, it does not replace other sources of intelligence.

555 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:28:47pm

re: #541 jamesfirecat

Because you have no way of fact checking the information in time.

If they lie their head off then you both stop torturing them and will waste time checking out a false lead that will insure bomb goes off before you start again.

This asshole was made to stand in awkward positions for long periods of time, turned the AC on in his cell, slapped him on his belly and made him cry. He gave up the source of the explosives that killed 224 people.

556 Political Atheist  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:28:52pm

re: #524 publicityStunted

The little girl has a series of surgeries that should be fine. What the long term effects are is beyond my ken. But what she really really needs is her mom. Her mom and her older brother. Who BTW the snake lawyer also tried (failed) to implicate. I want her to have MOM. And as God is my witness I'll always try to make that happen. Good family can fix almost anything.

557 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:29:12pm

re: #541 jamesfirecat

Because you have no way of fact checking the information in time.

If they lie their head off then you both stop torturing them and will waste time checking out a false lead that will insure bomb goes off before you start again.

I understand that argument....but I'm presuming you can take down the bad guys with that info....happens all the time on TV

558 prairiefire  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:29:34pm

re: #545 jamesfirecat

James, The Office episode just featured an new system that sent your message to Facebook, phone, twitter, email, xbox live, fax machine, My Space....
it is called "Woof".

559 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:30:34pm

re: #547 The Shadow Do

Barbed wire so recruits can't leave? Bullshit. Why would a recruit want to leave with millions at stake? More likely a measure to keep the baseball crazed populace there from swarming the facility - my guess of course.

even a minor leaguer in some lands are national heros

560 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:30:35pm

re: #538 WindUpBird

I really do basically just sit in one place and make stuff all day, it's fun! But not exciting

If people didn't sit around making stuff, we'd still be living in caves. ;o)

561 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:30:37pm

Well the wife is home and wants to play DDO...later all..

562 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:31:00pm

re: #554 Dark_Falcon

You work to verify it, you don't put too much trust in it. The interrogation gives you a framework you try to build on, it does not replace other sources of intelligence.

You know there are other ways that we could go about getting a frame work like good cop bad cop/trying to be friends with them like we did with the Germans.

Why do you think Torture works best?

563 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:31:10pm

re: #535 RogueOne

If the verdict doesn't matter, since we're going to hold him forever anyway, then why go through a dog and pony show where you could actually lose.

A dog and pony show is a military show-trial with a predetermined outcome, wherein the letter and spirit of our Constitution is encouraged to be actively and gleefully pissed on.

564 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:31:15pm

re: #550 albusteve

I'm always interested in what others are up to...I could sit for hours and watch people work and produce...could be a plumber, might be an artist

mechanics and people who build/fix stuff are interesting to me because it's not conceptual, it's a real problem that must be really fixed, and the problems often involve entropy (neglected house, lack of oil changes, this car was in an accident five years ago)

565 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:32:53pm

re: #556 Rightwingconspirator

I want you to know that the little girl is in my prayers.
For her to have the life and parents that she deserves.
And, that she does get, the opportunities, that she should have a crack at.
Blessings upon you all.

566 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:33:29pm

re: #549 negativ

Define a "stress position".

Of course it works. I'm not even a pro, but I can guarantee you that with an hour (and complete immunity to and and all criminal or civil penalties) I'm creative enough and to have you not only confess to killing Abraham Lincoln, but also sincerely meaning it. Wouldn't leave so much as a bruise.

The information he gave up was accurate. He didn't claim to have killed Lincoln, he admitted his role in killing 224 other people though. The evidence not allowed was a witness he gave up during the interrogation, it worked. He's lucky we're the nice people we are or else he might have gotten what he deserved.

567 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:34:39pm

re: #563 negativ

A dog and pony show is a military show-trial with a predetermined outcome, wherein the letter and spirit of our Constitution is encouraged to be actively and gleefully pissed on.

Which is what we just witnessed.

568 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:35:15pm

re: #564 WindUpBird

mechanics and people who build/fix stuff are interesting to me because it's not conceptual, it's a real problem that must be really fixed, and the problems often involve entropy (neglected house, lack of oil changes, this car was in an accident five years ago)

I'm a carpenter, a remodel guy...or was...people were fascinated by what I did and when...the door swings both ways....I love watching my guys build/repair their cars especially...body work, upholstery, engines...all of it

569 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:36:05pm

re: #552 WindUpBird

Are you from the New York Times is full of evil and lies camp? I just want to know where the origin point is

George W Bush is imprisoning Latin American baseball prospects for his 50% share according to your post. Ok, I guess that's right. I did not know until now just where he got all his dough.

What, in name of all that is good, is next? Promising Latvian ice skaters held in mined Alaskan fjords?

570 Lidane  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:36:39pm

re: #16 cliffster

get life in prison and probably not a very pleasant one at that. but multiple life sentences served consecutively sends a message, man.

What message? That we're never going to let him out of jail? Pfft. A single life sentence can accomplish that. Handing down almost 300 life sentences is just like a college football team running up the score. After a while, you're going from being a winning team to being vindictive.

571 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:36:50pm

re: #568 albusteve

I'm a carpenter, a remodel guy...or was...people were fascinated by what I did and when...the door swings both ways...I love watching my guys build/repair their cars especially...body work, upholstery, engines...all of it

The guy in the shop across the street from me does great work. He's an older guy with a garage full of projects he'd completed that he decided to keep for himself.

572 jordash1212  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:37:43pm

No mention of course in the similarity in treatment by George W. Bush and Barack Obama.

573 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:37:44pm

re: #570 Lidane

What message? That we're never going to let him out of jail? Pfft. A single life sentence can accomplish that. Handing down almost 300 life sentences is just like a college football team running up the score. After a while, you're going from being a winning team to being vindictive.

it's expected in college...not to sound disagreeable

574 Political Atheist  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:38:49pm

re: #565 Floral Giraffe

{{Floral}} From Dragon_Lady and a smooch on the cheek from me.

575 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:40:19pm

re: #571 RogueOne

The guy in the shop across the street from me does great work. He's an older guy with a garage full of projects he'd completed that he decided to keep for himself.

I've made heirloom stuff, groovy artifacts, art, furniture....but never kept any of it, always a gift for somebody

576 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:41:55pm

re: #534 CuriousLurker

I do hate evil. I also know that evil is clever like a fox.

Let me clarify a little further: It's precisely because I feel that she lowers the bar where women's competence is concerned that I don't want other women feeling defensive of her, regardless of how irrational that feeling may or may not be. I cannot emphasize that enough.

IMO, she's a totally self-absorbed, vainglorious, fame-and-power-hungry oppportunist who shows little interest in the anything that doesn't directly benefit her. In a word, she's a grifter. She is ignorant but she isn't stupid. She knows damned well that she can flaunt her sexuality and then, when people attack her for it, sympathy is ginned up for her and she can pull out the violin and start playing the victim tune.

It is a feminine trick of the worst sort, and you are falling for it, my friend.

I agree with all of that.

But the last point.

I see it exactly for what it is, and that makes me despise her more.

577 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:42:43pm

re: #574 Rightwingconspirator

{{Floral}} From Dragon_Lady and a smooch on the cheek from me.

If there is ANY way I can help....
Just let me know.
I will be there.
It's a total heartbreaker.

579 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:43:39pm

re: #562 jamesfirecat

You know there are other ways that we could go about getting a frame work like good cop bad cop/trying to be friends with them like we did with the Germans.

Why do you think Torture works best?

Some of it is just that the cultural gulfs are even wider, which makes such an approach much harder. But even more its the fact that the people we are interrogating are more fanatical than most Germans were. Trying to be friends did not work with SS men, for example. Being nice does not work when you're dealing with a hardcase or a fanatic.

580 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:43:40pm

re: #578 Killgore Trout

Beck: TSA may be using full-body scanners to precipitate a communist revolution

Commies love blurry porn, goes great with vodka.

581 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:44:58pm

re: #578 Killgore Trout

Beck: TSA may be using full-body scanners to precipitate a communist revolution

Rev. Beck has some crazy notions, but the checks keep rolling in, praise the lord

582 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:45:11pm

re: #515 RogueOne

There was no "torture". Ahmed Ghailani was handled perfectly legally since enhanced interrogation techniques are allowable on military detainees. He wasn't waterboarded so the worst he faced was being put into stress positions and the belly slap. The president should be hammered with this. He made a political decision to put this case in front of a civilian judge and jury where the rules are entirely different and it blew up in their faces. Even worse they admitted that even if he were found completely innocent they were going to detain him forever anyway. Not only was this show a bad idea they told us the ending before it started. This entire episode was a naive farce.

Also, I noticed that the evidence the government wasn't allowed to use (since it was tainted by those enhanced interrogation techniques) was good, accurate evidence. The interrogation techniques worked which seems odd because I keep getting told "torture never works".

You are aware, I assume, of the long line of professional interrogation experts who have come forward to say that these techniques are contrary to accepted practice for a number of reasons: (1) they are ineffective relative to other interrogation methodologies, (2) they are questionably illegal, and questionably considered to be torture, (3) they undermine the greater effort of the "GWOT."

As just one of many examples, have you read Petraues's comments on the use of these kinds of techniques? Do you consider him to be a qualified expert on the topic?

Are you aware that the the people who often conducted these kinds of "interrogations" were novices in the field, who were systematically poorly supervised?

Please provide your source on the nature of the evidence that was obtained, but not able to be admitted because of the venue for the trial.

I'd argue that this "dog and pony show" proved that we are committed to the rule of law, and that we have faith in the foundational judicial system which has formed the backbone of our society for hundreds of years.

583 laZardo  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:45:36pm

re: #578 Killgore Trout

Beck: TSA may be using full-body scanners to precipitate a communist revolution

I recommended that so hard.

/interpret it as you will

584 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:46:29pm

re: #583 laZardo

I recommended that so hard.

/interpret it as you will

It's nice to be hardly recommended.

585 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:46:52pm

re: #579 Dark_Falcon

Some of it is just that the cultural gulfs are even wider, which makes such an approach much harder. But even more its the fact that the people we are interrogating are more fanatical than most Germans were. Trying to be friends did not work with SS men, for example. Being nice does not work when you're dealing with a hardcase or a fanatic.

"like we did with the Germans" is meaningless in these times....the Will of Allah is a beast

586 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:47:40pm

re: #579 Dark_Falcon

Some of it is just that the cultural gulfs are even wider, which makes such an approach much harder. But even more its the fact that the people we are interrogating are more fanatical than most Germans were. Trying to be friends did not work with SS men, for example. Being nice does not work when you're dealing with a hardcase or a fanatic.

But you honestly believe that pain and suffering will work to unlock the secrets of those who wish to make martyrs of themselves?

I think the only way we're going to beat them is to make them weak and decadent and to that end we should be treating our prisoners as nicely as possible...

587 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:49:01pm

re: #578 Killgore Trout

Beck: TSA may be using full-body scanners to precipitate a communist revolution

HAHAHAHA... oh my God! Glenn beck is going to get people killed with this shit.

588 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:49:42pm

re: #515 RogueOne

It may have been allowed. It may have been legal. It was and always will have been torture. Thankfully the courts got that right.

589 theheat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:50:19pm

re: #578 Killgore Trout

That was the topic today at the corner store, I kid you not. Then the fantasies of how to protect yourself when the TSA security people get too frisky, and speculating on what you're within your rights to do, and how this is all a plot by Obama to take away our freedoms because he's a communist.

This is what people in my hood are talking about, out here in the sticks. You'd think the Yanks were coming to take Tara.

590 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:50:48pm

re: #586 jamesfirecat

But you honestly believe that pain and suffering will work to unlock the secrets of those who wish to make martyrs of themselves?

I think the only way we're going to beat them is to make them weak and decadent and to that end we should be treating our prisoners as nicely as possible...

Yes it can work. Ideals run thin when you're facing pain with no end in sight.

591 bratwurst  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:50:48pm

re: #578 Killgore Trout

Beck: TSA may be using full-body scanners to precipitate a communist revolution

Good grief!

By the way, anyone with half a brain knows why we can't screen passengers like Israel does...Ben Gurion Airport served about 12,000,000 passengers last year, O'Hare alone had 64,000,000.

592 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:51:03pm

re: #587 Dark_Falcon

HAHAHAHA... oh my God! Glenn beck is going to get people killed with this shit.

Probably. I'm wondering how badly they are going to fuck up Thanksgiving air travel. If enough people throw temper tantrums in airports they could delay a lot of flights.

593 laZardo  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:51:11pm

re: #587 Dark_Falcon

HAHAHAHA... oh my God! Glenn beck is going to get people killed with this shit.

That's the joke point.

594 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:51:57pm

re: #590 Dark_Falcon

Yes it can work. Ideals run thin when you're facing pain with no end in sight.

What do you think of my suggestion Dark?

That the best way to beat these people who claim to have nothing and to live to become martyrs is to show them just how "much" there can be to life?

595 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:52:04pm

re: #564 WindUpBird

mechanics and people who build/fix stuff are interesting to me because it's not conceptual, it's a real problem that must be really fixed, and the problems often involve entropy (neglected house, lack of oil changes, this car was in an accident five years ago)

Used to be a carpenter for many years. I'd disagree (if I get your point correctly). Much of the work has a conceptual stage: for example, figuring out the layout of rafters or how to cut stair stringers or how to cut the compound miters of crown molding. And then there are design elements that are also conceptual in nature. The concrete stage of actually building something or holding the wood as you cut it is only one stage of the overall process.

596 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:53:07pm

re: #582 Talking Point Detective

Yes I am aware. I'm also aware that sometimes rough treatment (what was done to him doesn't come close to "torture") works. It may not work all the time and it may not be the best method but the argument that it doesn't work doesn't stand up to the facts.

Military trials are the "rule of law" both within ours and within our treaty obligations. He was a military target and he was treated like a military target. You can't act surprised when that treatment doesn't live up to our civilian judicial system.

597 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:53:22pm

re: #589 theheat

That was the topic today at the corner store, I kid you not. Then the fantasies of how to protect yourself when the TSA security people get too frisky, and speculating on what you're within your rights to do, and how this is all a plot by Obama to take away our freedoms because he's a communist.

This is what people in my hood are talking about, out here in the sticks. You'd think the Yanks were coming to take Tara.

I have to post this after that line:

598 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:53:39pm

re: #588 wlewisiii

It may have been allowed. It may have been legal. It was and always will have been torture. Thankfully the courts got that right.

The courts didn't say it was torture, they said it was coerced. No shit it was coerced.

599 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:54:53pm

re: #594 jamesfirecat

What do you think of my suggestion Dark?

That the best way to beat these people who claim to have nothing and to live to become martyrs is to show them just how "much" there can be to life?

No, they're scum. Make it clear we think they're scum and will treat them accordingly.

600 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:55:34pm

re: #592 Killgore Trout

Probably. I'm wondering how badly they are going to fuck up Thanksgiving air travel. If enough people throw temper tantrums in airports they could delay a lot of flights.

my kids are coming down next Wed...

601 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:55:40pm

re: #589 theheat

That was the topic today at the corner store, I kid you not. Then the fantasies of how to protect yourself when the TSA security people get too frisky, and speculating on what you're within your rights to do, and how this is all a plot by Obama to take away our freedoms because he's a communist.

This is what people in my hood are talking about, out here in the sticks. You'd think the Yanks were coming to take Tara.

I know you aren't allowed to punch them in the chest even if they touch your junk.
[Link: www.indystar.com...]

602 laZardo  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:56:53pm

re: #599 Dark_Falcon

No, they're scum. Make it clear we think they're scum and will treat them accordingly.

I think they know it already, and the feeling is already mutual before they're brought into the chamber. "War on Islam" and all.

603 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:57:11pm

re: #599 Dark_Falcon

No, they're scum. Make it clear we think they're scum and will treat them accordingly.

Sorry Dark, I'd rather be the better man, the vastly better man.

One of the most shocking books I ever wrote was one about the conditions of German Prisoners during WW2 in American prisons. About how they were getting fed bigger meals than they were in the own army, about how they were able to make more "money" (or at least camp vouchers) doing various bits of menial labor here than in Germany....

I want to be the nation that treats its captured foes better than they treat their own soldiers. To me that makes a nation "great" in ways few other things can.

604 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:58:08pm

re: #603 jamesfirecat

Sorry Dark, I'd rather be the better man, the vastly better man.

One of the most shocking books I ever wrote was one about the conditions of German Prisoners during WW2 in American prisons. About how they were getting fed bigger meals than they were in the own army, about how they were able to make more "money" (or at least camp vouchers) doing various bits of menial labor here than in Germany...

I want to be the nation that treats its captured foes better than they treat their own soldiers. To me that makes a nation "great" in ways few other things can.

unicorn farts

605 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:59:08pm

re: #590 Dark_Falcon

Yes it can work. Ideals run thin when you're facing pain with no end in sight.

That's when they make shit up. Say exactly what you want to hear. Just like the people murdered by the inquisition did.

There is never any possible good from torture. None. Ever. And don't give me that "24" crap 'cause that never actually happens in the real world.

Torturers deserve prison cells right next door to terrorists for just as long a sentence. Yes, "enhanced interrogation" is torture. And, I believe, that everyone in that chain of command is tainted with the crime.

606 RogueOne  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 6:59:09pm

re: #604 albusteve

unicorn farts

can't think of a better phrase to end the evening on. Nite all. Try to play nice.

607 theheat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 7:00:00pm

re: #601 RogueOne

I know you aren't allowed to punch them in the chest even if they touch your junk.
[Link: www.indystar.com...]

Well, you might be able to get away with punching them in the future.

608 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 7:00:37pm

re: #596 RogueOne

Yes I am aware. I'm also aware that sometimes rough treatment (what was done to him doesn't come close to "torture") works. It may not work all the time and it may not be the best method but the argument that it doesn't work doesn't stand up to the facts.

Military trials are the "rule of law" both within ours and within our treaty obligations. He was a military target and he was treated like a military target. You can't act surprised when that treatment doesn't live up to our civilian judicial system.

Define "works." If you have two systems, and system A works better for a number of reasons than system B - even though system B produces results, do you really think it is "working." You are using the system which produces inferior results. Is that really how you'd define "working."

Can you please give your source for your knowledge of what techniques were or weren't used, and which evidence was not admissible and would have resulted in a different outcome in terms of the verdict? I keep asking for that but as of yet, although people seem confident that a military tribunal would have produced a different result, no one has given me that information.

Your point about "rule of law" is a valid one. A military tribunal system does fit under that definition. That system is not, however, which system of trial to use is determined, by rule of law, by the DOJ. The DOJ made its determination. So, in fact, the civilian trail was the process which followed in our codified "rule of law."

609 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 7:00:41pm

re: #581 albusteve

Rev. Beck has some crazy notions, but the checks keep rolling in, praise the lord

And, pass the ammunition.

610 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 7:01:28pm

re: #604 albusteve

unicorn farts

I guess it is foolish of me to think that our generation could be better than, or even as good as the one that came before it.

Forget the power of technology and science for so much has been forgotten, never to be-learned. forget the promise of progress and understanding....

611 theheat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 7:01:30pm

re: #609 Floral Giraffe

I bet Beck's wife shops. A lot.

612 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 7:03:29pm

Sorry for the garbled sentences there at the end - but I think you can get the point.

613 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 7:07:13pm

re: #610 jamesfirecat

I guess it is foolish of me to think that our generation could be better than, or even as good as the one that came before it.

Forget the power of technology and science for so much has been forgotten, never to be-learned. forget the promise of progress and understanding...

probably....I'm generally too busy to dwell on it, waterboarding never hurt anybody

614 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 7:07:47pm

re: #603 jamesfirecat

Sorry Dark, I'd rather be the better man, the vastly better man.

One of the most shocking books I ever wrote was one about the conditions of German Prisoners during WW2 in American prisons. About how they were getting fed bigger meals than they were in the own army, about how they were able to make more "money" (or at least camp vouchers) doing various bits of menial labor here than in Germany...

I want to be the nation that treats its captured foes better than they treat their own soldiers. To me that makes a nation "great" in ways few other things can.

I don't. Especially not with these scum. They are not worthy of the treatment accorded to those Germans, who were lawful combatants. They are simply terrorists and murderers and they deserve nothing good.

615 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 7:12:09pm

re: #614 Dark_Falcon

I don't. Especially not with these scum. They are not worthy of the treatment accorded to those Germans, who were lawful combatants. They are simply terrorists and murderers and they deserve nothing good.

Dark, the idea is not about treating them good because of who they are or because of how they deserve it, it is instead about reafirming who we are, and what we stand for, by treating this people far better than they deserve just to prove what fandamtastic people we Americans are.

Holding the moral high ground keeps the American public supportive of the American army....

616 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 7:12:29pm

re: #614 Dark_Falcon

I don't. Especially not with these scum. They are not worthy of the treatment accorded to those Germans, who were lawful combatants. They are simply terrorists and murderers and they deserve nothing good.

Just to make sure I'm getting you right - you're making a distinction between Nazi soldiers who gassed women and childrenen masse and Ghailani, and saying that either one deserved better treatment because they were, somehow, better people?

617 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 7:14:09pm

re: #616 Talking Point Detective

Just to make sure I'm getting you right - you're making a distinction between Nazi soldiers who gassed women and childrenen masse and Ghailani, and saying that either one deserved better treatment because they were, somehow, better people?

I'm talking about German combat and supply troops, not the SS who acted as camp guards. Those we mostly shot out of hand.

618 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 7:14:34pm

re: #615 jamesfirecat

Dark, the idea is not about treating them good because of who they are or because of how they deserve it, it is instead about reafirming who we are, and what we stand for, by treating this people far better than they deserve just to prove what fandamtastic people we Americans are.

Holding the moral high ground keeps the American public supportive of the American army...

It also plays a fundamentally important role in the "GWOT."

There is a broad consensus among military and intelligence experts on this issue.

619 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 7:14:41pm

re: #615 jamesfirecat

We're not going to agree on this, so I'm going to drop it.

620 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 7:14:52pm

re: #576 LudwigVanQuixote

I agree with all of that.

But the last point.

I see it exactly for what it is, and that makes me despise her more.

You're a smart guy and I don't doubt for a minute that you see the trap for what it is. But you're also a very passionate guy who sometimes lets his righteous anger get the best of him—you see a wrong or an injustice and you charge at head on, like a bull in a china closet. I know this because I have the exact same tendency.

IMO, it's perfectly admirable to feel righteous anger and act on it, but if you let object of your ire goad you into saying or doing something that's going to benefit them (by making them appear sympathetic to others), then you defeat yourself. Again, I know because I have done it myself more times than I can count.

A friend once told me that when I'm angry I'm like a tiger with a bee up it's ass. How's that for a mental picture? Heh. Over the years (I'm fast approaching the half century mark), I've learned to control it better, though it takes a hell of an effort sometimes. Still, if choking back my outrage helps me outsmart a skillful wrongdoer/opponent, then I'll do swallow it no matter how bitter the taste.

621 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 7:17:20pm

re: #619 Dark_Falcon

We're not going to agree on this, so I'm going to drop it.

Fair enough, I think we've both more or less said our pieces and why they hold them.

So now in response of your use of "scum" in our conversation allow me to close the conversation with this....

(I kid cause I love Dark...)

622 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 7:27:47pm

re: #554 Dark_Falcon

You work to verify it, you don't put too much trust in it. The interrogation gives you a framework you try to build on, it does not replace other sources of intelligence.

It demonstrably closes off other sources of information from that asset.

"From my experience -- and I speak as someone who has personally interrogated many terrorists and elicited important actionable intelligence -- I strongly believe that it is a mistake to use what has become known as the 'enhanced interrogation techniques,' " Soufan noted in his written statement.

Such a position is "shared by many professional operatives, including the CIA officers who were present at the initial phases of the Abu Zubaydah interrogation."

Soufan told the committee that within the first hour of his interrogation of Zubaydah, the suspected terrorist provided actionable intelligence.

But once the CIA contractors took over and used harsh methods, Zubaydah stopped talking, Soufan said. When Soufan was asked to resume questioning, Zubaydah cooperated. After another round of more coercive techniques used by the contractors, however, Soufan said it was difficult for him to re-engage Zubaydah.

It doesn't work, we've known this for a long time.


Back then, they and their commanders wrestled with the morality of bugging prisoners' cells with listening devices. They felt bad about censoring letters. They took prisoners out for steak dinners to soften them up. They played games with them.

"We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture," said Henry Kolm, 90, an MIT physicist who had been assigned to play chess in Germany with Hitler's deputy, Rudolf Hess.

Blunt criticism of modern enemy interrogations was a common refrain at the ceremonies held beside the Potomac River near Alexandria. Across the river, President Bush defended his administration's methods of detaining and questioning terrorism suspects during an Oval Office appearance.

re: #614 Dark_Falcon

I don't. Especially not with these scum. They are not worthy of the treatment accorded to those Germans, who were lawful combatants. They are simply terrorists and murderers and they deserve nothing good.

But what about our own troops, you've stated that you really don't care about what happens to them either as a result of our using torture:

re: #5 ralphieboy

Condoning our own use of torture also means we cannot condemn those who would use it against us.

I'm willing to forgo condemning others use of it. I really do think that torturing Khalid Sheik Mohammad was justified. We had to have what in his head and we had to b willing to use any means to get it.

Which begs the question, if you don't care about the treatment our own troops are likely to receive as a result, what do you care about? The answer appears to be venting your own rage, and calling it a search for intelligence.

623 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 7:28:47pm

--snip--

Then there is the false premise -- found at the center of every attack on the Obama DOJ's conduct here -- that the key witness would not have been excluded had Ghailani had been put before a military commission at Guantanamo. That is simply untrue. The current rules governing those military tribunals bar the use of torture-obtained evidence to roughly the same extent as real courts do. Anyone who doubts that should simply read Rule 304(a)(1) and (5) of the Military Commissions Manual, found on page 205 of the document:

[304(a)(1)] No statement, obtained by the use of torture, or by cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment. . . . whether or not under color of law, shall be admissible in a trial by military commission . . . .

[304(a)(5)] Evidence derived from a statement that would be excluded under section (a)(1) of this rule may not be received in evidence against an accused who made the statement if the accused makes a timely motion to suppress or an objection . . . .

The only exceptions to those exclusionary rules are essentially identical to those used in the judicial system, which were applied by Judge Kaplan but found to be inapplicable ("the evidence would have been obtained even if the statement had not been made; or [] use of such evidence would otherwise be consistent with the interests of justice"). As The New York Times' Charlie Savage pointed out this morning, "Judge Kaplan strongly suggested in a footnote that a military commission judge would have excluded that testimony, too, pointing to restrictions against the use of evidence obtained by torture in military trials." Savage went on to note: "still, arguments over the factual details of the case were overshadowed by the political dynamics of the verdict" -- meaning that nobody is going to let the facts get in the way of a nice right-wing, fear-mongering, liberty-attacking orgy. (And all of that's entirely independent of the fact that civilian trials have proven far more effective [if not more just] at punishing accused Terrorists than military commissions have been.).

--snip--

[Link: www.salon.com...]

624 prairiefire  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 7:31:02pm

re: #623 Talking Point Detective

You are a good detective.

626 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 7:36:36pm

re: #624 prairiefire

You are a good detective.

Heh! Some talking points are relatively easy to detect.

When someone is arguing in the name of national security along a line that runs in contrast to the consensus military and intelligence expert opinion, and which runs counter to the established judicial procedures utilized over the history of our country, it's usually a pretty good sign.

I think that there is an argument to be made as to why military tribunals might be more appropriate in some circumstances. The argument, however, that military tribunals would be better because they'd allow for the admission of evidence collected through the use of torture don't quite cut it, IMO.

627 prairiefire  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 7:38:11pm

re: #626 Talking Point Detective

Heh! Some talking points are relatively easy to detect.

When someone is arguing in the name of national security along a line that runs in contrast to the consensus military and intelligence expert opinion, and which runs counter to the established judicial procedures utilized over the history of our country, it's usually a pretty good sign.

I think that there is an argument to be made as to why military tribunals might be more appropriate in some circumstances. The argument, however, that military tribunals would be better because they'd allow for the admission of evidence collected through the use of torture don't quite cut it, IMO.

Favourited and reposted for emphasis.

628 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 7:38:43pm

Lizards, I'm toast. I've had my fill of drama for the night. (Thanks, Sarah!)

RWC: Your foster daughter and her children are in my prayers.

Ludwig: {{{LVQ}}}

Alouette, for everything you've gone through this week: {{{Alouette}}}

The Shadow Do: I don't really know you, but I'm sorry to hear about the breakup of your marriage. I know how painful that can be—probably more so than I can imagine since you were married for much longer than I've ever been.

Note to self: Remember that even though this is "just a blog" there are real people sitting behind those keyboards typing out the comments. Some of them may be dealing with very serious problems that you're completely unaware of, so take a chill pill when you feel the snark rising up.

Everyone Else: Take care, have fun, and try not to draw any too much blood when you fight. ;o)

629 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 7:43:24pm

re: #627 prairiefire

Favourited and reposted for emphasis.

Thanks.

630 blueraven  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 7:45:53pm

re: #623 Talking Point Detective

--snip--

Then there is the false premise -- found at the center of every attack on the Obama DOJ's conduct here -- that the key witness would not have been excluded had Ghailani had been put before a military commission at Guantanamo. That is simply untrue. The current rules governing those military tribunals bar the use of torture-obtained evidence to roughly the same extent as real courts do. Anyone who doubts that should simply read Rule 304(a)(1) and (5) of the Military Commissions Manual, found on page 205 of the document:

[304(a)(1)] No statement, obtained by the use of torture, or by cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment. . . . whether or not under color of law, shall be admissible in a trial by military commission . . .

[304(a)(5)] Evidence derived from a statement that would be excluded under section (a)(1) of this rule may not be received in evidence against an accused who made the statement if the accused makes a timely motion to suppress or an objection . . .

The only exceptions to those exclusionary rules are essentially identical to those used in the judicial system, which were applied by Judge Kaplan but found to be inapplicable ("the evidence would have been obtained even if the statement had not been made; or [] use of such evidence would otherwise be consistent with the interests of justice"). As The New York Times' Charlie Savage pointed out this morning, "Judge Kaplan strongly suggested in a footnote that a military commission judge would have excluded that testimony, too, pointing to restrictions against the use of evidence obtained by torture in military trials." Savage went on to note: "still, arguments over the factual details of the case were overshadowed by the political dynamics of the verdict" -- meaning that nobody is going to let the facts get in the way of a nice right-wing, fear-mongering, liberty-attacking orgy. (And all of that's entirely independent of the fact that civilian trials have proven far more effective [if not more just] at punishing accused Terrorists than military commissions have been.).

--snip--

[Link: www.salon.com...]

shhhh...we are not supposed to talk about that

631 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 7:48:31pm

re: #603 jamesfirecat

I want to be the nation that treats its captured foes better than they treat their own soldiers. To me that makes a nation "great" in ways few other things can.

Coming out of left field, but WHY would you want to treat your enemies better than your own soldiers? I don't understand that. Please do try, to enlighten me. I am open to a discussion.

632 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 8:01:42pm

re: #631 Floral Giraffe

I want to be the nation that treats its captured foes better than they treat their own soldiers. To me that makes a nation "great" in ways few other things can.

Coming out of left field, but WHY would you want to treat your enemies better than your own soldiers? I don't understand that. Please do try, to enlighten me. I am open to a discussion.

Are we putting captured soldiers through worse than boot camp? I thought we in general didn't do that

633 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 8:03:36pm

re: #599 Dark_Falcon

No, they're scum. Make it clear we think they're scum and will treat them accordingly.

next up! Dehumanization!

next up genocide!

When you dehumanize people, REALLY dehumanize them, makes it easier to systematically exterminate them. Just saying.

634 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 8:05:49pm

re: #411 CuriousLurker

I didn't think so. What did you mean, if you don't mind saying? Just curious. If you'd rather not get into details, I understand.

I didn't realize you guys had a history, so I'll just leave that part alone.

Hi CL - just noticed this comment; apologies for not replying earlier. Just so you don't leave this thread with the wrong impression - there is no "history" here except perhaps in wrench's head. Anyone familiar with ice's posting history will know that feminism is something she feels very strongly about; she would have responded in a similar vein to ANYONE who had made a comment like that.

Trust me, if she had a general issue with wrench she wouldn't hesitate to say so; again, her posting history on this site will confirm that she doesn't shy away from directly confronting people she has an issue with.

635 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 8:06:08pm

re: #514 theheat

I'm not taking any of my Sharpie eyebrows comments back. As far as I'm concerned, it's an accurate barometer of crazy of the gentler sex. And I am of the gentler sex. Camel toes, crazy eyebrows, inflatable duck lips, sky blue tranny eyeshadow, mini skirts on buffalo women - it's a manifestation of some inner crazy they harbor. It's also intentional, done deliberately, and transcends whatever looks they were or weren't born with.

SKY BLUE TRANNY EYESHADOW :D

Quote of the day right here

636 jamesfirecat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 8:10:52pm

re: #631 Floral Giraffe

I want to be the nation that treats its captured foes better than they treat their own soldiers. To me that makes a nation "great" in ways few other things can.

Coming out of left field, but WHY would you want to treat your enemies better than your own soldiers? I don't understand that. Please do try, to enlighten me. I am open to a discussion.

I said we should treat our captured prisoner better than the other side treats their soldiers.

America Should Treat Terrorist POW better than Al-Queda treats its grunts in the field.

Not that we should treat the POWs better than our own GIs.

Sorry for confusion Floral.

637 prairiefire  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 8:33:37pm

re: #400 negativ

Don't blame that on prarie. I'm pretty sure it was me.

Either way, I don't worry too much about offending humorless people. My credo is Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke. Honestly, it's a harder article of faith to follow than one might think, and I fail from time to time, but I do try.

Thank you, it wasn't me!

638 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 8:56:24pm

re: #55 The Shadow Do

Agreed, I worked in a prison one summer. They were all innocent. Every darn one of them. That's what they said. A real travesty.

You can get summer work at prisons?

639 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 9:28:20pm

re: #119 cliffster

ever seen Shawshank Redemption?

A great movie--about a man who spends decades in prison being punished for a crime he didn't commit.

640 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 1:58:36am

re: #617 Dark_Falcon

I'm talking about German combat and supply troops, not the SS who acted as camp guards. Those we mostly shot out of hand.

This is an incredibly stupid assertion, Dark. There were very few incidents where SS guards were shot out of hand. Do you honestly believe this? You are accusing US soldiers of war crimes.

641 RogueOne  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 3:38:51am

re: #623 Talking Point Detective

--snip--

Then there is the false premise -- found at the center of every attack on the Obama DOJ's conduct here -- that the key witness would not have been excluded had Ghailani had been put before a military commission at Guantanamo. That is simply untrue. The current rules governing those military tribunals bar the use of torture-obtained evidence to roughly the same extent as real courts do. Anyone who doubts that should simply read Rule 304(a)(1) and (5) of the Military Commissions Manual, found on page 205 of the document:

[304(a)(1)] No statement, obtained by the use of torture, or by cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment. . . . whether or not under color of law, shall be admissible in a trial by military commission . . .

[304(a)(5)] Evidence derived from a statement that would be excluded under section (a)(1) of this rule may not be received in evidence against an accused who made the statement if the accused makes a timely motion to suppress or an objection . . .

Nice try for Greenwald but there isn't any accusation that he was "tortured" beyond the treatment that the military, the congress, and the president allows. Every claim he makes about his treatment was, and still is, perfectly legal. None of the coercive techniques are close to allowable in a civilian detainment but all were well within the guidelines for high level detainees.

642 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 4:47:31am

The dings on Walter's comment 313 tell an interesting but sad little story:


Rating: -8
Total: 10

Minus: 9
bratwurst, Floral Giraffe, goddamnedfrank, iceweasel, jamesfirecat, Jimmah, LudwigVanQuixote, Obdicut, publicityStunted

Plus: 1
McSpiff

Hi McSpiff!

643 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 5:17:20am

re: #641 RogueOne

Nice try for Greenwald but there isn't any accusation that he was "tortured" beyond the treatment that the military, the congress, and the president allows. Every claim he makes about his treatment was, and still is, perfectly legal. None of the coercive techniques are close to allowable in a civilian detainment but all were well within the guidelines for high level detainees.

And your source for that information is?

644 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 5:30:21am

re: #641 RogueOne

Nice try for Greenwald but there isn't any accusation that he was "tortured" beyond the treatment that the military, the congress, and the president allows. Every claim he makes about his treatment was, and still is, perfectly legal. None of the coercive techniques are close to allowable in a civilian detainment but all were well within the guidelines for high level detainees.

Also, please note: ...torture or by cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment. . . .

Also note (a document which applies to the Unites States):

The United Nations Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (UNCAT) came into force in June 1987....
Article 1
1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

Also, please note:

In its annual “Country Reports on Human Rights Practices,” the U.S. State Department has described the following practices as torture:

* stripping and blindfolding of prisoners (Egypt)
* subjecting prisoners to prolonged sun exposure in high temperatures and tying of hands and feet for extended periods (Eritrea)
* sleep deprivation and "suspension for long periods in contorted positions" (Iran)
* sleep deprivation and solitary confinement (Jordan)
* prolonged standing and isolation (Turkey)

Also, please note:

. In court filings made public in January 2007, FBI agents reported that detainees at Guantanamo Bay were: chained in a fetal position to the floor for at least 18 hours, urinating and defecating on themselves; subjected to extremes of temperature; gagged with duct tape; held in stress positions while shackled; and subjected to loud music and flashing lights. Senior administration officials have repeatedly denied that torture is being conducted in the detention camps at Guantanamo Bay. However, the Bush administration explicitly endorsed the use of interrogation techniques such as waterboarding in memos to the CIA, and one Pentagon official has publicly admitted that torture was conducted at Guantanamo Bay.

645 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 5:44:26am

TPD, what silliness! Treaties-schmeaties. Torture works, period. An authority on torture SAYS SO:

To the Secretaries of oblast and regional party committees,
To the CCs of national Communist parties,
To the people's commissars of internal affairs,
and to the heads of NKVD directorates

It has become known to the VKP CC that the secretaries of oblast and regional party committees, in checking up on employees of NKVD directorates, have laid blame on them for the use of physical pressure against those who have been arrested, treating it as something criminal. The VKP CC affirms that the use of physical pressure in the work of the NKVD has been permitted since 1937 in accordance with a resolution of the VKP CC. This directive indicated that physical pressure was to be used in exceptional cases and only against blatant enemies of the people who, when interrogated by humane methods, defiantly refuse to turn over the names of co-conspirators, and who refuse for months on end to provide any evidence, and who try to thwart the unmasking of co-conspirators who are still at large, and who thereby continue even from prison to wage a struggle against the Soviet regime. Experience has shown that such an arrangement has produced good results and has greatly expedited the unmasking of enemies of the people. True, subsequently in practice the method of physical pressure was abused by Zakovsky, Litvin, Uspensky, and other scoundrels, converting it from an exception into a rule and beginning to apply it against honest people who had been arrested accidentally. For these abuses, they have been given due punishment. But this in no way detracts from the value of the method itself when it is properly used. It is known that all bourgeois secret services use physical pressure against representatives of the socialist proletariat and rely on especially savage methods of it. We might therefore ask why a socialist secret service should be any more more humane in relation to inveterate agent of the bourgeoisie and sworn enemies of the working class and collectivized farmers. The VKP CC believes that the use of physical pressure must absolutely be continued from here on in exceptional cases and against blatant and invidious enemies of the people, and that this is a perfectly appropriate and desirable method. The VKP CC demands that the secretaries of oblast and regional party committees and the CCs of national party committees bear in mind this explanation when they check up on the employees of NKVD directorates.

Secretary of the VKP CC
J. Stalin
10.1.1939

If torture doesn't work, then how can one explain the 700,000 spies, wreckers and other enemies of the people shot in 1937-1938? Of course it works!

646 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 5:48:35am

re: #645 Sergey Romanov

TPD, what silliness! Treaties-schmeaties. Torture works, period. An authority on torture SAYS SO:

If torture doesn't work, then how can one explain the 700,000 spies, wreckers and other enemies of the people shot in 1937-1938? Of course it works!

This list of despots and mass murderers who thought that "torture works" is a long one.

647 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 5:50:37am

re: #646 Talking Point Detective

This list of despots and mass murderers who thought that "torture works" is a long one.

Well, each thought: "Yeah, it works for me!".

648 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 6:11:16am

re: #641 RogueOne

Nice try for Greenwald but there isn't any accusation that he was "tortured" beyond the treatment that the military, the congress, and the president allows. Every claim he makes about his treatment was, and still is, perfectly legal. None of the coercive techniques are close to allowable in a civilian detainment but all were well within the guidelines for high level detainees.

Wait, there's more:

[Link: emptywheel.firedoglake.com...]


Mary and I both noted the suggestion in Judge Lewis Kaplan’s summary opinion refusing to let Hussein Abebe testify against Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani that Abebe himself was coerced to testify.

Kaplan’s complete ruling provides more details. At the very least, Kaplan’s opinion points to an entire day of Abebe’s interrogation–the day on which he first confessed to having provided Ghailani the explosives for the embassy bombing–about which the government is withholding evidence. The unredacted portions of the ruling note that this means the people interrogating Abebe may well have used details from Ghailani’s own interrogation to convince Abebe to confess, which would exacerbate the poisoned fruit aspect of Abebe’s confession. And while Kaplan doesn’t say it in any of the unredacted portions, there is also the possibility that Abebe himself was abused on that day of his interrogation.

But just as interesting is the question of who conducted that interrogation. While the government and the Tanzanian national police claim members of the TNP were present, Kaplan found the TNP weren’t in charge the interrogation. So what entity was conducting this potentially coercive interrogation?

...

No Americans were “present” at the key interrogation

As I said above, Kaplan’s unredacted narrative states that no Americans were present for the first two days of Abebe’s interrogation, though he footnotes that statement and the footnote (which appears to be two lines long) is entirely redacted. Later, Kaplan notes,

Whether by design or otherwise, there were no Americans whose presence could be compelled by an American court in the room.

I find that entire construction fascinating. Is Kaplan qualifying “Americans” with “whose presence could be compelled” to suggest there were Americans there whose presence couldn’t be compelled (such as CIA officers)? Or is he distinguishing between Americans “in the room” and Americans who might be observing but not present? If so, all of that is left unsaid. This sentence is followed by a redacted sentence, so Kaplan may have said more about this that got redacted.

In any case, the FBI remarkably swoops in on the day after Abebe confesses, and proceeds to get a Mirandized version of Abebe’s earlier confession. As if they had been waiting just outside the door for the moment when he confessed so as to get a version that would be admissible in a US court.

The government did not submit testimony from those who conducted the interrogation

Again, Rogueone - I ask you: What is the source for your in-depth knowledge about what techniques were used, and who conducted the interrogation?

649 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 6:18:15am

re: #641 RogueOne

Nice try for Greenwald but there isn't any accusation that he was "tortured" beyond the treatment that the military, the congress, and the president allows. Every claim he makes about his treatment was, and still is, perfectly legal. None of the coercive techniques are close to allowable in a civilian detainment but all were well within the guidelines for high level detainees.

Oh, and btw - the quote below isn't Greenwald's supposition. No, it was written by the judge who ruled on the case:

It is very far from clear that Abebe’s testimony would be admissible if Ghailani were being tried by military commission, even without regard to the question whether the Fifth Amendment would invalidate any more forgiving provisions of the rules of evidence otherwise applicable in such a proceeding.

Military commissions are governed by the Military Commissions Act, 10 USC 948a et seq. (the “MCA”). Evidence in such proceedings is governed by the Military Commission Rules of Evidence (“MCRE”). U.S. DEP’T OF DEFENSE, MANUAL FOR MILITARY COMMISSIONS (2010 ed.).

MCA 948r(a) and MCRE 304 preclude or restrict the use of “statements obtained by torture or cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment,” and evidence derived threrefrom, and could require exclusion of Abebe’s testimony. Even if they did not, the Constitution might do so, even in a military commission proceeding.

Just to clarify, Rogueone: Your contention is that you know better than the ruling judge on the case whether or not the testimony would have been admissible in a military tribunal?

Do you mind giving me the source where you obtained the detailed information (that apparently the judge didn't have?) that enables you to reach such a certain conclusion?

650 RogueOne  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 6:20:27am

re: #644 Talking Point Detective

Those are all nice points but the State Department doesn't get to set the interrogation guidelines for the military, that would be handled by the CiC and the Congress. The treatment he alleges he received was ok'd by the chain of command with the blessings of those people the constitution gives the power to make those rules. He was a military target, a military detainee and treated like such. If they wanted him tried by civilian rules then they should have turned him over to the FBI when he was picked up. The Obama admin decided to change the rules in the middle of the game and it bit them on the ass.

651 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 6:23:01am

--snip--

Terrorism, like any other social pathology, can best be fought with a rule of law, not by trampling on the very framework of our democratic system. We don’t have to become al-Qaeda to fight al-Qaeda. In fact, in America’s struggle to win over the Muslims of the world, adherence to our constitution is among our most effective weapons. Gallup found that:

‘ When asked what they admire most about the West, citizens of Muslim countries ranked technology first and liberty and democracy second. They expressed widespread admiration for the freedom of expression and assembly, rule of law, and government accountability they see in the West.‘

Muslims already know all about military tribunals and torture and arbitrarily tossing people in jail. They are yearning for something better, which we, at least used to, have.

--snip--

[Link: www.juancole.com...]

652 RogueOne  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 6:26:07am

re: #649 Talking Point Detective

No, I said the judge never ruled the defendant was tortured or ruled in any way on his handling while being detained in Gitmo. The judge had his hands tied. In a civilian trial coercion of the sort used in a military interrogation isn't allowable. Unless this judge has ever been a military lawyer he doesn't have the requisite understanding of how it's done. If all he has as a background is his civilian service then he's not going to get it. Kind of like the way the FBI recoiled at the way the CIA and the military does their interrogations. They don't play by the same rules and their objectives are completely different, it's no wonder they don't understand. Look at the judges opening line in the quote you posted "It is very far from clear", i.e., "I don't know".

653 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 6:29:37am

re: #650 RogueOne

Those are all nice points but the State Department doesn't get to set the interrogation guidelines for the military, that would be handled by the CiC and the Congress. The treatment he alleges he received was ok'd by the chain of command with the blessings of those people the constitution gives the power to make those rules. He was a military target, a military detainee and treated like such. If they wanted him tried by civilian rules then they should have turned him over to the FBI when he was picked up. The Obama admin decided to change the rules in the middle of the game and it bit them on the ass.

I am still waiting for your source. You have said, with absolute certainty, that testimony, that was excluded from the civilian court setting, would have led to convictions on more counts in a military tribunal.

The judge who ruled on the case disagrees with your opinion, quite like on the basis that the evidence was collected by measures that would make it in-admissible, by military standards, quie likely because it was obtained by prohibited practices, and quite likely because the interrogators who obtained the information were not even American military personnel.

Surely, you must have a source to be so certain that the judge is wrong.

654 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 6:31:27am

re: #652 RogueOne

Look at the judges opening line in the quote you posted "It is very far from clear", i.e., "I don't know".

Ok. But you are saying that you know? Obviously, you have far less information available than the judge had.

What is the source that allows you to be so certain?

655 RogueOne  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 6:35:42am

re: #653 Talking Point Detective

IN A CIVILIAN TRIAL! The evidence excluded, the witness testimony that he was involved in obtaining the explosives, would not have been excluded in a military trial.

From the Obama admin DOJ:
[Link: online.wsj.com...]


Mr. Bharara is right. The interrogation of a high-value terrorist is a critical opportunity to obtain intelligence. As Mr. Bharara pointed out in regards to Ghailani, "the defendant was . . . a rare find, and his then-recent interactions with top-level al Qaeda terrorists made him a potentially rich source of information that was both urgent and crucial to our nation's war efforts." Abdulmutallab's recent interactions with leaders of al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula made it likely he could give up actionable intelligence. He possessed unique information about those who deployed him, bomb makers who prepared him, and operatives who trained with him.
.......
The Justice Department did not bring Ghailani to a civilian court immediately after he was captured in 2004, preferring, after his lengthy interrogation was completed, to prosecute him in a military commission. It wasn't until June that his case was shifted to the criminal justice system.

Moreover, the government "did not Mirandize the defendant at any point to preserve the possibility of later using his inculpatory statements. It did not maintain a strict chain of custody with respect to physical evidence in the manner of a law enforcement agency. . . . Indeed, the goal of the [CIA interrogation program] was remote from law enforcement; the program's purpose was to gain intelligence, not to get admissible confessions or to gather admissible evidence."

This, according to Mr. Bharara's filing, was the right approach: "the defendant . . . did in fact have actionable intelligence about al Qaeda," and thus "the interest in national security plainly justified holding the defendant in this case as an enemy combatant, interrogating him, and prosecuting him for violations of the laws of war, even if that meant delaying his criminal trial."

He should never have been put in front of a civilian judge and jury. It was dumb and the conclusion of the trial could be seen from the first moment the decision was made.

656 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 6:38:10am

re: #652 RogueOne

. Kind of like the way the FBI recoiled at the way the CIA and the military does their interrogations. They don't play by the same rules and their objectives are completely different,....

Actually, that is a bit of a mis-characterization. The CIA operatives brought in to conduct the interrogations after the FBI refused to use the "enhanced techniques" were non-experienced. This has been well-documented. The FBI refused on the grounds that the techniques would be ineffective and because they were, in their opinion illegal and any information therefore obtained would be inadmissible.

657 RogueOne  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 6:38:24am

re: #654 Talking Point Detective

Ok. But you are saying that you know? Obviously, you have far less information available than the judge had.

What is the source that allows you to be so certain?

The source that allows me to be certain that it wouldn't have been excluded in a military trial? The CiC and the congress set the rules for interrogation. Unless they crossed the line somewhere, and there isn't any evidence they did, then the behavior was perfectly legal (in military terms) and would not have been excluded. A military trial isn't like a civilian trial, I'm not sure why that is so hard to understand.

658 RogueOne  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 6:42:48am

re: #656 Talking Point Detective

Actually, that is a bit of a mis-characterization. The CIA operatives brought in to conduct the interrogations after the FBI refused to use the "enhanced techniques" were non-experienced. This has been well-documented. The FBI refused on the grounds that the techniques would be ineffective and because they were, in their opinion illegal and any information therefore obtained would be inadmissible.

The FBI and the CIA are 2 different entities. Their rules are different, their scope is different, and their objectives are completely different. Bringing the FBI in was a waste of resources. Not only is there a long running pissing match between the FBI/CIA and even the military but, again, while the interrogation process might be similar interrogating white collar criminals and gang members doesn't translate well into interrogating military detainees for actionable intel.

659 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 6:44:17am

re: #655 RogueOne

IN A CIVILIAN TRIAL! The evidence excluded, the witness testimony that he was involved in obtaining the explosives, would not have been excluded in a military trial.

I must be missing something. The judge said that the eyewitness testimony would likely have not been admissible in a military tribunal. He cited the statue which bars testimony obtained by "....cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment,” from military trials.

Further, as FDL points out, it is quite likely that the eyewitness testimony was not even obtained by American military personnel.

I don't see where your last post answers my question. How do you know, with the certainty that you are stating, that there was testimony excluded from the civilian trial that would have been allowed in a military tribunal.

What is your source for that information that leads you to be absolutely sure that the judge was wrong in his speculation?

How many times will I have to ask you for your source before you will provide it for me?

660 RogueOne  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 6:45:45am

Just for the record, as an enlisted man I was 71D, legal specialist. While I never dealt with anything similar I do know and understand JAG officers. Secondly, after receiving my commission I was given an Intel branch designation. I have a much better understanding of Intel officers and interrogators than I do JAG offs.

661 RogueOne  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 6:49:15am

re: #659 Talking Point Detective

I must be missing something. The judge said that the eyewitness testimony would likely have not been admissible in a military tribunal. He cited the statue which bars testimony obtained by "...cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment,” from military trials.

Further, as FDL points out, it is quite likely that the eyewitness testimony was not even obtained by American military personnel.

I don't see where your last post answers my question. How do you know, with the certainty that you are stating, that there was testimony excluded from the civilian trial that would have been allowed in a military tribunal.

What is your source for that information that leads you to be absolutely sure that the judge was wrong in his speculation?

How many times will I have to ask you for your source before you will provide it for me?

If the treatment was prescribed by those the constitution gives the authority, then the treatment cannot be "cruel, inhumane, or degrading". Unless you're willing to say the congress and the president are guilty of war crimes then the treatment was within regulations and therefore allowable to be used in a military trial. Even your quote from the judge points out that he doesn't know if it would be allowable and since he's a civilian judge with no military experience I wouldn't expect him to know.

662 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 6:50:20am

re: #657 RogueOne

The source that allows me to be certain that it wouldn't have been excluded in a military trial? The CiC and the congress set the rules for interrogation. Unless they crossed the line somewhere, and there isn't any evidence they did, then the behavior was perfectly legal (in military terms) and would not have been excluded. A military trial isn't like a civilian trial, I'm not sure why that is so hard to understand.

What is the information, specifically, that would have been allowed? What were the techniques, specifically, used to obtain that information that would have made it inadmissible in a civilian court by admissible in a military court? Who, specifically, conducted the interrogations?

Look - my argument is pretty clear. It is entirely possible that you are right here. However, the judge, who obviously had a great deal of information at his disposal, including every source you've talked about that describes what kinds of interrogation techniques would or wouldn't make evidence inadmissible in a military court, said that it is quite likely that the incriminating eyewitness testimony would have been excluded in a military trial.

However, you aren't claiming that it is possible that you are right. You are saying it is certain. I can only think of two ways that you could have that certainty. The first way, is that you have some very specific and detailed information about the nature of the evidence and how the interrogations were conducted (and by whom).

The second way, is that there is a flaw in your analysis that is allowing you to reach absolute certainty without having sufficient data.

663 RogueOne  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 6:56:29am

re: #662 Talking Point Detective

The president and the congress set the regulations for allowable behavior in dealing with detainees. The enhanced interrogation techniques:

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]


1. The Attention Grab: The interrogator forcefully grabs the shirt front of the prisoner and shakes him.

2. Attention Slap: An open-handed slap aimed at causing pain and triggering fear.

3. The Belly Slap: A hard open-handed slap to the stomach. The aim is to cause pain, but not internal injury. Doctors consulted advised against using a punch, which could cause lasting internal damage.

4. Long Time Standing: This technique is described as among the most effective. Prisoners are forced to stand, handcuffed and with their feet shackled to an eye bolt in the floor for more than 40 hours. Exhaustion and sleep deprivation are effective in yielding confessions.

5. The Cold Cell: The prisoner is left to stand naked in a cell kept near 50 degrees. Throughout the time in the cell the prisoner is doused with cold water.

6. Water Boarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.

We know he isn't one of the 3 that were water boarded so lets throw that one out for another argument another day. (water boarding isn't torture in my mind)

Any intel/evidence derived from those behaviors would absolutely be allowable in a military trial. Those are the rules they were given to play with and those are the rules they used. Military prosecutors couldn't be punished (by not allowing evidence) based on the use of these measures. That is a certainty, there isn't any doubt. Also, as far as I can find, there isn't any evidence, or accusation, that he was treated more harshly than was allowed.

664 RogueOne  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 6:57:29am

re: #662 Talking Point Detective

One last thing, Military trials aren't meant to be "fair" like civilian trials. The rules are different because the objectives are different.

665 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 6:58:33am

re: #661 RogueOne

If the treatment was prescribed by those the constitution gives the authority, then the treatment cannot be "cruel, inhumane, or degrading". Unless you're willing to say the congress and the president are guilty of war crimes then the treatment was within regulations and therefore allowable to be used in a military trial. Even your quote from the judge points out that he doesn't know if it would be allowable and since he's a civilian judge with no military experience I wouldn't expect him to know.

Just to clarify, you are saying that the evidence would have been admissible, even if it violated military tribunal rules regarding what is and is not admissible, because the president approved having non-American military interrogators to acquire interrogations by means that may well meet the descriptor of "cruel, inhumane, or degrading?"

Second - there is this point:

--snip--
King and other members of Congress, who wish to make an end run around the constitution with their ‘military tribunals,’ are essentially violating the separation of powers, since the artificial tribunals operating beyond the bill of rights are a way for the legislative and executive branches to sidestep the judicial system so as to administer arbitrary ‘justice.’ This way of proceeding is essentially a bill of attainder:

“Bills of attainder . . . are such special acts of the legislature, as inflict capital punishments upon persons supposed to be guilty of high offences, such as treason and felony, without any conviction in the ordinary course of judicial proceedings. If an act inflicts a milder degree of punishment than death, it is called a bill of pains and penalties. . . . In such cases, the legislature assumes judicial magistracy, pronouncing upon the guilt of the party without any of the common forms and guards of trial, and satisfying itself with proofs, when such proofs are within its reach, whether they are conformable to the rules of evidence, or not.”

The actually existing constitution of the United States of American forbids bills of attainder (Article I, Section 9 ), as an abuse of the British Old Regime.

[Link: www.juancole.com...]

--snip--

What is your response? Oh, and btw, I'd appreciation your response to an earlier comment of my regarding whether or not "torture works."

666 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 7:00:08am

"water boarding isn't torture in my mind"

ROFL. TPD, I don't know why you bother.

667 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 7:02:57am

re: #663 RogueOne

We know he isn't one of the 3 that were water boarded so lets throw that one out for another argument another day. (water boarding isn't torture in my mind)

Any intel/evidence derived from those behaviors would absolutely be allowable in a military trial. Those are the rules they were given to play with and those are the rules they used. Military prosecutors couldn't be punished (by not allowing evidence) based on the use of these measures. That is a certainty, there isn't any doubt. Also, as far as I can find, there isn't any evidence, or accusation, that he was treated more harshly than was allowed.

How do you know that he wasn't waterboarded? Are you saying that you know, for a fact, that the TNP didn't waterboard Abebbe? Further, do you have any knowledge of whether or not TNP interrogators violated other rules limiting military interrogation techniques? Do you know, for a fact, that he wasn't interrogated by foreign personnel? Do you know that American interrogators didn't violate their own rules (are you actually claiming that didn't happen in other instances)?

What is the source for your information that makes you so certain of all these factors?

668 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 7:03:57am

re: #664 RogueOne

One last thing, Military trials aren't meant to be "fair" like civilian trials. The rules are different because the objectives are different.

I don't see how that is relevant to what we've been discussing. Seems like a non-sequitur.

669 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 7:05:47am

re: #666 Sergey Romanov

"water boarding isn't torture in my mind"

ROFL. TPD, I don't know why you bother.

Because I think that his argument has flaws independent of that opinion of his. In fact, his opinion as to whether waterboarding is torture is also a non-sequitor - not really germane to the discussion we're having.

670 RogueOne  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 7:08:17am

re: #665 Talking Point Detective

Not just the president, they also had the blessings of the congress. Juan doesn't seem to understand that the constitution gives the president and the congress the authority in handling of military matters. They're the ones that make the rules for how detainees are to be treated and military trials of detainees isn't a new concept.

Here is my bigger point....This guy was a military target and was treated according to the rules laid down by the CiC and the Congress. He was held in accordance to military law and subjected to treatment not allowed in the civilian realm. Everyone knew all of this on the day Mr. Holder and the president decided to toss him in front of a civilian judge and jury for appearances sake. This was a major mistake that almost blew up in everyones face. What would have happened if they didn't get the 1 (out of 284) guilty charge? They had already determined that regardless of the trial outcome he wasn't ever going to be released so why put themselves in the position to completely override a civilian verdict? It was dumb. He should have been left to be tried by a military tribunal (also, perfectly legal) and left to rot in a military cell for the rest of his days.

671 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 7:09:59am

re: #658 RogueOne

The FBI and the CIA are 2 different entities. Their rules are different, their scope is different, and their objectives are completely different. Bringing the FBI in was a waste of resources. Not only is there a long running pissing match between the FBI/CIA and even the military but, again, while the interrogation process might be similar interrogating white collar criminals and gang members doesn't translate well into interrogating military detainees for actionable intel.

The personnel brought in by the CIA were novices in interrogating. The personnel who designed the procedures were also novices.

This has been well-documented. So, you're saying that inexperienced personnel are more desirable than experienced personnel because of the agency they belonged to?

672 RogueOne  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 7:11:58am

re: #665 Talking Point Detective


What is your response? Oh, and btw, I'd appreciation your response to an earlier comment of my regarding whether or not "torture works."

Torture works. There are thousands of years of evidence that it works and if it didn't work they would have stopped doing it long ago. Does it work all the time? No. Is it the best method for gaining intel? No, at least not all the time. Is there an error rate (what that error rate is could be argued another time)? Yes. Are any of the enhanced techniques torture? I'd argue no but I understand reasonable people can disagree especially when it comes to the water boarding.

My contention is that the statement "torture never works" isn't backed up by reality.

673 RogueOne  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 7:13:23am

re: #667 Talking Point Detective

We know that only 3 people were water boarded and we know all 3 were okay'd by the president and congressional leaders. If there were any more than those 3 it would have been leaked long ago.

674 RogueOne  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 7:15:08am

re: #668 Talking Point Detective

I don't see how that is relevant to what we've been discussing. Seems like a non-sequitur.

Maybe we're talking around each other then. My contention is putting him in front of a civilian judge was a major mistake and that had he been tried in a military court he would have been found guilty of all (or almost all) charges. The idea of putting military detainees in front of a civilian court is a mistake.

675 RogueOne  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 7:16:11am

re: #671 Talking Point Detective

The personnel brought in by the CIA were novices in interrogating. The personnel who designed the procedures were also novices.

This has been well-documented. So, you're saying that inexperienced personnel are more desirable than experienced personnel because of the agency they belonged to?

Yes. Military interrogators are much, much different than their civilian counterparts.

676 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 7:18:30am

re: #670 RogueOne


Here is my bigger point...This guy was a military target and was treated according to the rules laid down by the CiC and the Congress. He was held in accordance to military law and subjected to treatment not allowed in the civilian realm.

And you know this how? What is your source?

This was a major mistake that almost blew up in everyones face. What would have happened if they didn't get the 1 (out of 284) guilty charge? They had already determined that regardless of the trial outcome he wasn't ever going to be released so why put themselves in the position to completely override a civilian verdict?

That is a fair point. I wouldn't put it above any politicians to make decisions on political expediency, Obama and Holder included. Of course, they've taken a huge hit on this politically and that was easily predictable, so it is possible that their decisions here were based on what they felt was what would result in the best outcome. But even still, maybe it was unnecessarily risky in terms of what punishment might be meted out in this case.

But that doesn't address some other points. First, you still haven't provided enough information to prove your case, IMO. Second, you are dismissing, out of hand, all the other aspects of how trying Ghailani in civilian court can have a beneficial impact in the "GWOT" in many ways. Given that it has already gone down, what doesn't make sense, IMO, is for people concerned about "national security" to systematically attempt to undermine any potential positive outcomes from the decision to try him in civilian court. It smacks of partisanhsip to me. I'm not claiming that is your motivation - but it seems to me to be the motivation of Republican politicians beyond any shadow of a doubt.

677 RogueOne  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 7:19:30am

re: #675 RogueOne

Before Sept. 11th I had an interrogator explain to me that while beating a detainee with a bat was illegal but it wasn't illegal if the detainee did the beating himself. He promised that after a few days of "enhanced techniques" he could get a detainee to beat himself unconscious. That isn't the kind of thing they teach you at FBI school.

678 RogueOne  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 7:22:36am

re: #676 Talking Point Detective

And you know this how? What is your source?

That is a fair point. I wouldn't put it above any politicians to make decisions on political expediency, Obama and Holder included. Of course, they've taken a huge hit on this politically and that was easily predictable, so it is possible that their decisions here were based on what they felt was what would result in the best outcome. But even still, maybe it was unnecessarily risky in terms of what punishment might be meted out in this case.

But that doesn't address some other points. First, you still haven't provided enough information to prove your case, IMO. Second, you are dismissing, out of hand, all the other aspects of how trying Ghailani in civilian court can have a beneficial impact in the "GWOT" in many ways. Given that it has already gone down, what doesn't make sense, IMO, is for people concerned about "national security" to systematically attempt to undermine any potential positive outcomes from the decision to try him in civilian court. It smacks of partisanhsip to me. I'm not claiming that is your motivation - but it seems to me to be the motivation of Republican politicians beyond any shadow of a doubt.

We disagree. In my mind there was no potential positive outcome available, there was only a downside. He is going to be held until his death regardless of the jury verdict so even if they had convicted on all counts it doesn't matter.

And I have proven my case that his treatment wouldn't have been a detriment in a military trial. There are no accusations that he was treated any differently than allowed. If the congress says it's legal then as far as the military is concerned, it's legal.

679 RogueOne  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 7:24:01am

TPD,

It's been fun. I have massive amounts of work to accomplish and I'm blaming you for holding me up. Enjoy your weekend.

680 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 7:25:27am

re: #672 RogueOne

What is your response? Oh, and btw, I'd appreciation your response to an earlier comment of my regarding whether or not "torture works."

Torture works. There are thousands of years of evidence that it works and if it didn't work they would have stopped doing it long ago. Does it work all the time? No. Is it the best method for gaining intel? No, at least not all the time. Is there an error rate (what that error rate is could be argued another time)? Yes. Are any of the enhanced techniques torture? I'd argue no but I understand reasonable people can disagree especially when it comes to the water boarding.

My contention is that the statement "torture never works" isn't backed up by reality.

I'll try this again. You have two ways of getting information: technique A, and technique B. Technique A obtains a good amount of relatively reliable information. Technique be obtains a smaller amount of highly unreliable information. Is it your contention that a less reliable and less productive technique "works."

I didn't say that torture "never works." I have questioned the statement that "torture works."

681 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 7:26:04am

re: #673 RogueOne

We know that only 3 people were water boarded and we know all 3 were okay'd by the president and congressional leaders. If there were any more than those 3 it would have been leaked long ago.

You know that the TNP didn't waterboard the eyewitness? How do you know this?

682 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 7:29:41am

re: #675 RogueOne

Yes. Military interrogators are much, much different than their civilian counterparts.

Novice mlitary interrogators, supervised by non-experts are certainly different than expert civilian interrogators. Are they more effective?

683 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 7:31:09am

re: #679 RogueOne

TPD,

It's been fun. I have massive amounts of work to accomplish and I'm blaming you for holding me up. Enjoy your weekend.

Fair enough. Catch you on another thread. I'm glad you cried "uncle," because I have a lot of work to do also.

/s

684 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 9:13:44am

re: #650 RogueOne

Right. It "bit them on the ass" so badly that Ghailani will be spending the rest of his life in prison.

And you don't even see how completely absurd your predictable attacks on Obama are, because you're living in an alternate universe.

685 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 9:49:29am

re: #655 RogueOne

It was dumb and the conclusion of the trial could be seen from the first moment the decision was made.

You mean, a life sentence with no chance of parole?

Yeah, that's just an awful defeat for the Obama administration.

Seriously, this line of argument is incredibly pathetic. At least try to notice the real world once in a while.

686 RogueOne  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 10:12:51am

re: #685 Charles

You mean, a life sentence with no chance of parole?

Yeah, that's just an awful defeat for the Obama administration.

Seriously, this line of argument is incredibly pathetic. At least try to notice the real world once in a while.

They convicted him on 1 of the 285 charges, that's a disaster. I'm waiting for some of the jurors to tell us what happened but the news last week was one of the jurors wanted replaced so it's just possible that this guy was almost acquitted of all the charges. There was never a chance he was ever going to just walk away so the administration put themselves in a position to have to overrule a civilian judge. They made the decision to put him in front of a civilian jury for purely political reasons. The idea of civilian trials for these terrorists is out the window so there's no way they'll make this mistake again but that doesn't absolve them for using political motivations in their decision instead of doing his job as CiC and insisting on trying him in front of a military tribunal.

687 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 10:21:21am

re: #686 RogueOne

I don't expect you to stop trying to make this foolish argument, because you're just not living in the real world.

If the Bush administration hadn't authorized "enhanced interrogation" against Ghailani, he probably would have been convicted on the other charges too. I know this is impossible for you to accept, but facts are facts.

And if he'd been convicted on the other charges, he might have received 280+ consecutive life sentences. Would that have been enough punishment for you, or do you think he should have been tortured some more first?

688 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 10:33:10am

The "1 of 285 counts" meme is extremely misleading. For all intents and purposes, the absolute majority of the counts are for separate victims in the same incident. It's an either/or situation - it couldn't have been 100 out of 285, for example. For the sake of serious analysis I would treat these 200+ counts as a single "count".

689 RogueOne  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 10:55:00am

re: #687 Charles

I don't expect you to stop trying to make this foolish argument, because you're just not living in the real world.

If the Bush administration hadn't authorized "enhanced interrogation" against Ghailani, he probably would have been convicted on the other charges too. I know this is impossible for you to accept, but facts are facts.

And if he'd been convicted on the other charges, he might have received 280+ consecutive life sentences. Would that have been enough punishment for you, or do you think he should have been tortured some more first?

No, I think he should have been put in front of a military tribunal where we wouldn't have run the risk of having this guy acquitted on all charges. The "enhanced interrogation" techniques were authorized by the CiC with the blessing of the congress and wholly legal. This entire episode was unnecessary.

We'll know who is right when the administration decides on where KSM is going to get his trial. I don't believe there is any chance they'll put him in front of a civilian judge which will be an admittance that they made a mistake.

690 RogueOne  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 10:57:14am

re: #688 Sergey Romanov

The "1 of 285 counts" meme is extremely misleading. For all intents and purposes, the absolute majority of the counts are for separate victims in the same incident. It's an either/or situation - it couldn't have been 100 out of 285, for example. For the sake of serious analysis I would treat these 200+ counts as a single "count".

That is a valid point but ask yourself how the jury could come back with a guilty count on the one charge but innocent on all the attempted murder charges. This feels like a deal in the jury room. I'd love to hear what the jurors have to say for themselves but I would understand if they preferred to keep their names/faces out of this.

691 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 10:58:30am

re: #689 RogueOne

The system worked. He's going to jail, probably for the rest of his life with no possibility of parole. And our court system sent a very clear message that the "enhanced interrogation" tactics you're still defending are not acceptable in American justice.

This is the most ridiculous outrageous outrage yet. You're complaining and yelling that it was a failure, when it was an unqualified success. I'm finished discussing it with you, because you're just not being rational.

692 Varek Raith  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 11:13:13am

re: #690 RogueOne

It sounds like you just wanted a kangaroo trial.
Perhaps if he wasn't tortured, he would've been found guilty on more.

693 CuriousLurker  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 11:20:54am

re: #634 Jimmah

Hi CL - just noticed this comment; apologies for not replying earlier. Just so you don't leave this thread with the wrong impression - there is no "history" here except perhaps in wrench's head. Anyone familiar with ice's posting history will know that feminism is something she feels very strongly about; she would have responded in a similar vein to ANYONE who had made a comment like that.

Trust me, if she had a general issue with wrench she wouldn't hesitate to say so; again, her posting history on this site will confirm that she doesn't shy away from directly confronting people she has an issue with.

Thanks for taking the time to come back and respond.

To date, wrenchwench & ice have shown me nothing but kindness. I think they are very passionate, intelligent women and I happen to like them both, so as I said earlier, I'll refrain from commenting on the rest.

694 Fearless Fred  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 12:21:04pm

re: #427 KingKenrod

Why would a rational person spend time thinking out cruel fantasies like this? Even if she is despicable and deserves it?

So, are you saying "she's despicable and deserves it"?

What's worse, her popularity enhanced because of breasts, or Obama's popularity enhanced because of skin color?

695 Fearless Fred  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 12:29:15pm

re: #691 Charles

The system worked. He's going to jail, probably for the rest of his life with no possibility of parole. And our court system sent a very clear message that the "enhanced interrogation" tactics you're still defending are not acceptable in American justice.

This is the most ridiculous outrageous outrage yet. You're complaining and yelling that it was a failure, when it was an unqualified success. I'm finished discussing it with you, because you're just not being rational.

I guess you won't like this [Link: www.nationalreview.com...] because you feel like Bush somehow beat the system .... somehow wasn't checked by the judiciary. Maybe you're right. Is that what happened? Did the courts not yet do their job? If so, why won't/can't they now (past two years) with O and a democrat congress and senate?

Why would a military trial have been wrong here? Why do you feel the civilian trial was appropriate?

696 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 12:30:17pm

re: #689 RogueOne

Oh. And one more point:

We'll know who is right when the administration decides on where KSM is going to get his trial. I don't believe there is any chance they'll put him in front of a civilian judge which will be an admittance that they made a mistake.

I realize in advance that if KSM is tried in a military court, you'll be furiously trying to spin it as a loss for Obama, when the reality is that -- again -- the problems with trying KSM all stem from the wrong-headed and indefensible use of torture to gain information. With KSM this issue is even clearer.

He's a scumbag of the first degree, you get no argument from me on that. But if he has to be tried in a military court so that he doesn't avoid justice for his many crimes, the blame has to be placed squarely on the Bush administration's acceptance of torture. They created a hell of a mess for any administration that followed them.

697 RogueOne  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 12:40:02pm

re: #692 Varek Raith

A military tribunal is not a kangaroo trial. What do you call a trial where the defendant stands no chance of release regardless of the jury verdict?

698 RogueOne  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 12:49:19pm

re: #696 Charles

I disagree but I'm on my phone and the thread is so long it's killing my phone. I'll respond later. I know you can hardly wait//

699 Fearless Fred  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 12:51:27pm

re: #696 Charles

Oh. And one more point:

I realize in advance that if KSM is tried in a military court, you'll be furiously trying to spin it as a loss for Obama, when the reality is that -- again -- the problems with trying KSM all stem from the wrong-headed and indefensible use of torture to gain information. With KSM this issue is even clearer.

He's a scumbag of the first degree, you get no argument from me on that. But if he has to be tried in a military court so that he doesn't avoid justice for his many crimes, the blame has to be placed squarely on the Bush administration's acceptance of torture. They created a hell of a mess for any administration that followed them.

But he wasn't involved in 'unjust' civil behavior, or crimes, was he? Wasn't he involved in an organized effort to wholly eliminate us and our country? Does our idea of "justice" which he may or may not have succeeded in "avoiding" matter at all to him? Why then does it matter to us? Was he really behaving as a criminal citizen, or as a part of a serious threat to our very existence?

700 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 1:06:10pm

re: #699 Fearless Fred

But he wasn't involved in 'unjust' civil behavior, or crimes, was he? Wasn't he involved in an organized effort to wholly eliminate us and our country? Does our idea of "justice" which he may or may not have succeeded in "avoiding" matter at all to him? Why then does it matter to us? Was he really behaving as a criminal citizen, or as a part of a serious threat to our very existence?

"A serious threat to our very existence?" You're kidding, right?

KSM was responsible for causing the deaths of many people, and needed to be stopped before he killed more. But neither he nor Al Qaeda ever had the actual power to be a threat to the "very existence" of America.

701 Fearless Fred  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 1:18:58pm

re: #700 Charles

"A serious threat to our very existence?" You're kidding, right?

KSM was responsible for causing the death of many people, and needed to be stopped before he killed more. But neither he nor Al Qaeda ever had the actual power to be a threat to the "very existence" of America.

Sorry. I only meant to say that seems to be implicitly and explicitly part of their ultimate goal, doesn't it? Isn't it one often stated goal of theirs? I have many friends who believe it's preposterous to imagine all that, but I thought it was right here at littlegreenfootballs where I first began to see the seriousness of the these radical jihadists' goals. I thought Ghailani was an enthusiastic member of al Qaida, no?

If these guys aren't a threat to our existence should we even be at war with them?

702 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 1:42:20pm

Having a goal is not the same as having the capability to achieve that goal. Yes, Al Qaeda has the desire to destroy America, and of course we need to be aware of that. But it's unrealistic to believe they can actually achieve it. They can hurt lots of people, and we can't relax our guard because they're still trying to do that, but they can't destroy us.

What can destroy us is compromising our dedication to our own principles, as a nation that stands for human rights and against things like torture.

703 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 2:01:18pm

re: #686 RogueOne

They made the decision to put him in front of a civilian jury for purely political reasons.

Could be. Or, they felt that trying him in a venue where evidence obtained by "enhanced interrogation techniques" would be a black stain on our country, and counterproductive in the GWOT.

There is no shortage of military and intelligence experts who say that the more we are seen resorting to those technique, the more we set back out attempts at fighting terrorism. Read what Petraeus has to say on the topic sometime, as a good example. I can provide some links if you'd like.

Contrary to your assertion, I think it is actually pretty likely that they will try KSM in military court for political reasons, because they've taken such a hit from pure partisan hacks hiding behind a facade of "concern" for "national security." It obviously a big fact contradiction for Republican politicians to bash Obama on this, because the more they do so the more they undermine the efforts of our military. It is typically disgusting for them to exploit security concerns for partisan reasons (not saying that is uniquely Republican characteristic).

Again, what is sad is that the argument for using military tribunals boils down to one basic rationale: As opposed to civilian trials, we might then get convictions because we used "enhanced interrogation techniques."

Would that really be a "victory" in your eyes? Our country should be proud to base our"victory" on adding extra life-sentences to someone who would already spend the rest of his life in prison by virtue of what is viewed a torture by the rest of the world?

More like a Pyrrhic victory, I'd say. And clearly, a victory that would come at the expense of progress in the larger context of the "GWOT."

704 Fearless Fred  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 2:09:37pm

re: #702 Charles

That seems right. I agree. But I'm not sure why all the interest in this trial being in civil court. Seems to me military court with a jury of military officers instead of civilians would have been more appropriate.

By the way, was the problem with inadmissible evidence over alleged 'torture', or coercion? I thought it was about coerced statements (which are always inadmissible in civilian trials, regardless of any actual torture). I wasn't aware there was ever any evidence Ghailani was tortured. Did I miss something?

705 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 2:42:20pm

re: #686 RogueOne

The idea of civilian trials for these terrorists is out the window so there's no way they'll make this mistake again but that doesn't absolve them for using political motivations in their decision instead of doing his job as CiC and insisting on trying him in front of a military tribunal.

BTW - just out of curiosity, do you think that other presidents also weren't doing their job as CiC when they tried terrorists in civilian court?

706 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 3:02:28pm

re: #650 RogueOne

. The Obama admin decided to change the rules in the middle of the game and it bit them on the ass.

Just because it's too perfect, here's a clip where Petreaus says that whenever we haven't obeyed the Geneva Conventions when interrogating, it has "bit us in the backside."

So, just to be clear -- you are in a diametrically opposed position to the head of the military operation as to what military policy should be?

707 Fearless Fred  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 3:34:25pm

re: #706 Talking Point Detective

Just because it's too perfect, here's a clip where Petreaus says that whenever we haven't obeyed the Geneva Conventions when interrogating, it has "bit us in the backside."

[Video]So, just to be clear -- you are in a diametrically opposed position to the head of the military operation as to what military policy should be?

But, how exactly would trying Ghailani in a military tribunal instead of a civil court have been disobeying the Geneva Conventions?

708 Fearless Fred  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 3:41:15pm

re: #705 Talking Point Detective

BTW - just out of curiosity, do you think that other presidents also weren't doing their job as CiC when they tried terrorists in civilian court?

Which terrorist trial, for example? I don't believe Clinton was doing a very good job as CiC, do you?

But why does that matter so much now? Aren't we trying to decide how now to deal with these enemy combatants? How exactly do you feel we are safer by handling matters in civil courts? Or, what exactly is your main goal in your preference for civil trials instead of military trials?

709 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 7:36:24pm

re: #707 Fearless Fred

But, how exactly would trying Ghailani in a military tribunal instead of a civil court have been disobeying the Geneva Conventions?

--snip--
The Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War (GPW)6
Article 17, paragraph 4 provides the general rule for interrogation of prisoners of war:

No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind.

--snip--

Read the whole thing. The argument for a military tribunal is that it would allow evidence that was disallowed from the civilian trial. In point of fact, that evidence may well have been disallowed in a military tribunal as well. Regardless, that evidence was obtained by methods which are illegal under the Geneva Conventions. Petreaus said, point blank, that violating the Geneva Conventions "bites us in the backside" with respect to winning the "GWOT."

R1 is saying that the CiC's duty is to directly undermine the authority of the commander of the ISAF.

Does that make sense to you?

710 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Nov 19, 2010 7:44:13pm

re: #708 Fearless Fred

Which terrorist trial, for example? I don't believe Clinton was doing a very good job as CiC, do you?

Are you aware that the Bush administration tried terrorists in civilian court?

Have you looked at the Bush administration's record of success in trying terrorists in military tribunals?

The Bush Administration had an 88% success rate prosecuting terrorists in civilian court

The failure rate in military tribunals was 85%

711 RogueOne  Sat, Nov 20, 2010 5:08:38am

re: #706 Talking Point Detective

Just because it's too perfect, here's a clip where Petreaus says that whenever we haven't obeyed the Geneva Conventions when interrogating, it has "bit us in the backside."

[Video]

So, just to be clear -- you are in a diametrically opposed position to the head of the military operation as to what military policy should be?

"Diametrically opposed"? That's a bit melodramatic. Either Crooks and Liars took this video out of context due to a misunderstanding or intentionally but either way if their reporting is the same as your take it's mistaken. The General was speaking as the head of the armed forces in Afghanistan. The armed forces are constrained in their interrogation techniques by the Army FM. The CIA, who handled the lead on this asshat, is not now, nor has it ever been, constrained by military rules.

Also, do you believe that a US general would get on national TV and disagree with the people who make the rules and sign his paycheck? Only if he didn't care about his career coming to a quick end would he do something like that. Part of being a general is being a good politician, general Petraeus knows what he's doing and if he says he wants his troops to handle detainees with kid gloves then that's what they need to be doing.

712 RogueOne  Sat, Nov 20, 2010 5:10:01am

re: #710 Talking Point Detective

Maybe you could name an Islamic terrorist that was picked up on foreign soil and tried in a civilian court in the US?

713 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 20, 2010 6:55:48am

re: #711 RogueOne

"Diametrically opposed"? That's a bit melodramatic.

Not really. He has made multiple statements to exactly the same effect. Really, they aren't hard to find.


"I have always been on the record, in fact since 2003, with the concept of living our values. And I think that whenever we have perhaps taken expedient measures they have turned around and bitten us in our backside...We have worked very hard over the years indeed to ensure that elements like the ICRC, who have seen our operations in terms of detainees and so forth, approve of them."


Either Crooks and Liars took this video out of context due to a misunderstanding or intentionally but either way if their reporting is the same as your take it's mistaken.


Again, the context was a question as to whether he wanted to use the interrogation techniques used during the Bush administration. And, again, he has repeated these types of statements multiple times. I can provide other examples if you'd like. I posted this particular one because it's so ironic that he used the same expression as you used to make exactly the opposite point.

The General was speaking as the head of the armed forces in Afghanistan. The armed forces are constrained in their interrogation techniques by the Army FM. The CIA, who handled the lead on this asshat, is not now, nor has it ever been, constrained by military rules. Also, do you believe that a US general would get on national TV and disagree with the people who make the rules and sign his paycheck? Only if he didn't care about his career coming to a quick end would he do something like that. Part of being a general is being a good politician, general Petraeus knows what he's doing and if he says he wants his troops to handle detainees with kid gloves then that's what they need to be doing.

This isn't just what he says on national TV. This is the policy that he is implementing. He has reversed the policies that you are defending, and he is clear in stating why he has reversed them: they are counterproductive. He has said that over and over, as have a long line of experienced interrogators, military experts, and intelligence experts. You can think that the use of such techniques is justified - that's your prerogative. But your position is diametrically opposed to the commander of the ISAF. He says such techniques should not be used, and that they are counterproductive.

If you pick your trial venue specifically on the basis of using interrogation techniques that the commander of the ISAF says should not be used (because they are counterproductive - have I mentioned that?), you are directly undermining his authority. To put these trials into a military setting is to say that you are proudly using techniques that are banned by the Geneva Convention as a way to prosecute the "GWOT."

714 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 20, 2010 7:02:03am

re: #712 RogueOne

Maybe you could name an Islamic terrorist that was picked up on foreign soil and tried in a civilian court in the US?

Maybe you could explain how where the terrorist was picked up would correlate with the effectiveness of the trial venue?

I realize that you think that being picked up on foreign soil enables the use of a military tribunal. That may be true. But it doesn't mean that the trial would have to be conducted in a military setting. The DOJ has Constitutionally determined jurisdiction in determining the setting.

If the question is what would the most effective setting, then the statistics I provided above become relevant. You are arguing that a military setting would be more effective in terms of getting convictions. The track record is in contradiction to that contention.

Now, maybe the cases the Bush administration tried in military settings were uniformly less solid to start with (the weakness of the cases may, in fact, have been the criteria they used to determine that they should be tried in a miltary court), and so the comparison could be somewhat misleading. But then what you're left with is that it makes sense to make the determination on the basis of the strength of your case. The DOJ says they have a good case against KSM.

715 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 20, 2010 7:04:57am

re: #714 Talking Point Detective

In fact, the military tribunals were used on so many people because we realized that we lacked evidence against them, and military tribunals represented a faster and more efficient way of tossing those cases out. That is why the dismissal rate is so high; having taken them, we had to process them in some manner, and the military courts represented the best way to do it. We knew ahead of time that we didn't have evidence to convict; the point of the military tribunals was not to convict. That 85% rate doesn't really represent failure-- the failure was in picking those people up without evidence in the first place.

716 RogueOne  Sat, Nov 20, 2010 7:06:41am

re: #714 Talking Point Detective

Maybe you could explain how where the terrorist was picked up would correlate with the effectiveness of the trial venue?

Maybe you could explain why I have to keep explaining the difference between someone picked up by the military on the battlefield, the CIA in a foreign country, or the FBI on US soil? There are 3 completely separate entities with 3 completely different roles and rules.

717 RogueOne  Sat, Nov 20, 2010 7:08:16am

re: #715 Obdicut

Actually, I have a small quibble with that statement since my belief is that most of them were picked up with good cause (but I have to admit that some absolutely were not) but otherwise I agree with that assessment.

718 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 20, 2010 7:30:39am

re: #716 RogueOne

Maybe you could explain why I have to keep explaining the difference between someone picked up by the military on the battlefield, the CIA in a foreign country, or the FBI on US soil? There are 3 completely separate entities with 3 completely different roles and rules.

I have no idea why you think you need to explain the difference. The difference is obvious. Terrorists picked up on foreign soil were picked up on foreign soil. Terrorists picked up on US soil were picked up on US soil.

You contend that terrorists picked up on foreign soil can be tried in a military tribunal. OK. I get that. I'm not disputing that, so I have no idea why you think that I am. But they don't have to be tried in a military tribunal. As a matter of Constitutional law, the DOJ's call.

The real question is where should they be tried.

If you try them in a military tribunal, for the specific rationale that you can allow evidence obtained through methodologies banned by the Geneva conventions, your decision has consequences. One consequence might be that you would obtain a greater number of convictions. Another consequence is that you are saying to the rest of the world, "We use techniques commonly defined as torture, and techniques banned by international organizations, and we're damned proud that we do."

Another consequence is that you're saying "We proudly use techniques that the commander of the ISAF (as well as numerous military, intelligence, and interrogation experts) say is counterproductive and should not be used. And, in fact, we seek to differentially base the outcome of trials on the use of those very techniques."

719 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 20, 2010 7:31:09am

re: #715 Obdicut

In fact, the military tribunals were used on so many people because we realized that we lacked evidence against them, and military tribunals represented a faster and more efficient way of tossing those cases out. That is why the dismissal rate is so high; having taken them, we had to process them in some manner, and the military courts represented the best way to do it. We knew ahead of time that we didn't have evidence to convict; the point of the military tribunals was not to convict. That 85% rate doesn't really represent failure-- the failure was in picking those people up without evidence in the first place.

Thanks for the clarification.

720 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 20, 2010 7:53:10am

re: #716 RogueOne

Alright, I'm out for now. It's a beautiful day out and I should have been on a long hike with my girlfriend and the dog at least an hour ago.

I blame you for the delay.

And so do my dog and girlfriend.

I suspect that we're reaching the point where we'll just be repeating ourselves anyway, but I will check back later to see if you can come up with anything better than your last couple of posts.

//


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