Overnight Open Thread
Open • Views: 22,393
There are two kinds of light — the glow that illumines, and the glare that obscures.
— James Thurber
231 comments
1 |
goddamnedfrank Mon, Nov 22, 2010 10:53:52pm |
North Korea artillery fire hits South island
Seoul's YTN television quoted a witness as saying 60 to 70 houses were on fire after the shelling.
The military confirmed the exchange of firing, without providing more details.
Well ... fuck.
| 2 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Nov 22, 2010 10:54:37pm |
There is flowing water that irrigates fields and powers turbines, and there is flowing water that inundates cities.
There is greed and self-interest that powers enterprise, creates wealth and innovations. And there is greed and self-interest that wrecks individual lives and entire economies.
It's all a matter of regulation. But regulation is a dirty word to some, especially those whose greed and self-interest know no bounds...
| 3 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, Nov 22, 2010 11:08:43pm |
re: #1 goddamnedfrank
North Korea artillery fire hits South island
Well ... fuck.
More details now:
(Reuters) - North Korea on Tuesday fired dozens of artillery shells at a South Korean island, setting buildings on fire and prompting a return of fire by the South, Seoul's military and media reports said.A witness said residents of the island of Yeonpyeong, off the west coast of the peninsula near a disputed maritime border, had been evacuated.
Yonhap news agency said four South Korean soldiers had been wounded in the shelling, the biggest attack in years.
YTN television quoted a witness as saying 60 to 70 houses were on fire after the shelling and TV footage showed plumes of smoke coming from the island. It said a South Korean fighter jet had been deployed to the west coast after the shelling.
"Houses and mountains are on fire and people are evacuating. You can't see very well because of plumes of smoke," a witness on the island told YTN.
"People are frightened to death and shelling continues as we speak," the witness said.
News of the exchange of fire sent the won tumbling in offshore markets with the 1-month won down in NDF trading.
The impact was felt internationally, with U.S. 10-year Treasury futures rising and the Japanese yen falling.
South Korea's military confirmed the exchange of firing, without providing more details.
If civilians have been killed in this incident, and it is hard to imagine that they weren't, this would be in a completely different category from the various provocations and shooting incidents that have happened regularly since 1953.
With a new leader in Pyongyang, it might be the big one.
| 5 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Nov 22, 2010 11:24:12pm |
re: #1 goddamnedfrank
just good times all around :(
| 6 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, Nov 22, 2010 11:24:13pm |
Background from yesterday:
Japan PM says N. Korea''s uranium enrichment "unacceptable"
US envoy says N. Korean uranium enrichment program "not a crisis"
(That remains to be seen)
US still backs six-party despite N. Korea nuclear advances
The revelation of the secret enrichment facility, and Japan's harsh reaction, could well have convinced the new North Korean leadership that patience with their stalling and evasion is about to run out, conciliatory words from the US not withstanding.
| 7 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Nov 22, 2010 11:29:48pm |
Kim Jon Il is just feeling a bit down in the mouth these days
| 8 |
deranged cat Mon, Nov 22, 2010 11:29:54pm |
For the last two hours i've been on a music discovering spree! I just went through my history of "Soundhound" music discoveries (a program similar to Shazam, where you hold up your phone to a song and it will find the name and artist) and i've just been looking up these various songs on youtube and watching their videos.
Here's a few of the highlights:
Florence and the Macine - Dog Days are Over
Darwin Deez - Up in the Clouds
Free Market by The Proclaimers
The Reeling by Passion Pit
wooooo!
| 9 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, Nov 22, 2010 11:34:10pm |
More encouraging news:
Report: Nuclear weapon drivers sometimes got drunk
Federal agents hired to transport nuclear weapons and components sometimes got drunk while on convoy missions, a government watchdog said Monday. In an incident last year, police detained two agents who went to a bar during an assignment.The Energy Department's assistant inspector general, Sandra D. Bruce, said her office reviewed 16 alcohol-related incidents involving agents, candidate-agents and others from the government's Office of Secure Transportation between 2007 through 2009. Nearly 600 federal agents ship nuclear weapons, weapon components and special nuclear material across the U.S.
| 11 |
freetoken Tue, Nov 23, 2010 12:29:39am |
re: #3 Shiplord Kirel
If civilians have been killed in this incident,
So far the news reports say only 1 SK soldier died.
| 12 |
SpaceJesus Tue, Nov 23, 2010 12:31:02am |
re: #1 goddamnedfrank
And the North has nuclear capabilities. Thank you Asea Brown Bovery for selling them that technology. Thank you Rumsfeld for being on their board of directors when they did that.
| 13 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Nov 23, 2010 12:39:41am |
A little chen spank over on the Digg wars, SJ if you are interested in doing some visitation - have a go...
[Link: digg.com...]
I feel sorry for you sometimes Chen. You try so very hard to maintain some facade of reasonability, but you just can't seem to keep your co-bloggers from showing their true natures. You also can't seem to hide your own as well as you think.
You see you don't read LGF everyday like I do. For one thing, I don't read it everyday. For another, I don't pour through back posts from years ago hoping to find a few out of the 8 or 9 million or so comments, looking for something to complain about.
I certainly haven't declared myself in a "blog war" as you actually did.
"Blog war" Chen? WTF?
Do you really think that the frenetic energy that you have put out here makes you seem reasonable? And no Chen before you say it, my energies here are because I am defending my friends. If you people developed lives of your own, I would not give any of you a second thought.
In the end Chen, your "blog war" isn't doing so well. You are not the greatest general. You can't keep your "troops" disciplined. It shows every time. You've lost this one. Which is of course why you have come here to sound all reasonable.
Ironically, the very nature of Rodan's posts and whomever the other one are going by the bird names, show what kind of people like Pam Gellar as well - specifically, childish, crude and insulting fools with grudges (just like you, but you are better at hiding it outside of the confines of your normal blogging). One would expect a Shrieking Harpy to appeal to such types. As a result, your inability to control your "troops" has failed doubly. By attacking Charles, the sheer apishness of Pam's "defenders" out in the open attacks her as well. You are bright enough to realize how this plays to an independent observer Chen.
Rather than there being a next time, how about you simply go and get a life! Blog about something else that interests you! Surely something does? If you guys do that, you really will be ignored. I assure you, not wanting to deal with your antics is why you were banned in the first place
| 14 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Nov 23, 2010 12:39:59am |
| 16 |
M. Dubious Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:56:49am |
re: #13 LudwigVanQuixote
Who is this Chen Spank? A blog warrior of some kind?
| 17 |
RadicalModerate Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:12:45am |
re: #11 freetoken
So far the news reports say only 1 SK soldier died.
A second South Korean soldier has died, it appears.
Also, 17 soldiers and three civilians are injured.
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]
Oh, and the idiots over at FR are already blaming Obama for this.
| 18 |
Kim Jong-Il Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:18:29am |
HA HA HA! How you rike me now, you FUCKING ASSHOLES!?
| 19 |
deranged cat Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:22:43am |
re: #13 LudwigVanQuixote
Digg has some serious troll problems...
| 20 |
M. Dubious Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:27:50am |
re: #19 deranged cat
Digg has some serious troll problems...
While true, you cannot post a "Geller Rant Generator" on Digg and expect fans of Geller not to react. Pretty predictable behavior, I would say.
| 21 |
freetoken Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:43:05am |
re: #17 RadicalModerate
Oh, and the idiots over at FR are already blaming Obama for this.
Those idiots would blame Obama if they got stung by a mosquito.
NK has been on this path for 60 years, has acted belligerently aperiodically all during those 6 decades, and the Obama policy on NK isn't very different than what the previous Presidents pursued.
NK is desperate, and they are acting desperately.
| 24 |
freetoken Tue, Nov 23, 2010 3:35:56am |
| 26 |
Jadespring Tue, Nov 23, 2010 3:47:05am |
| 27 |
researchok Tue, Nov 23, 2010 3:48:26am |
Check out Free's 22.
Mot quite a cup of coffee, but almost.
| 28 |
Jadespring Tue, Nov 23, 2010 3:51:45am |
I joined a gym yesterday.
It's been several years since I've done the gym thing so have an appointment at 9 with the owner to make my plan.
It's one of those things that I'm looking forward to doing but at the same time not looking forward to. :)
It's nice to finally have one in my little small town though. Before this one opened it was a 45 min drive to anywhere gymy like.
Now if we only had a pool.....
| 29 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Nov 23, 2010 3:55:16am |
re: #28 Jadespring
It's almost your 1st Lizard birthday.
| 30 |
Jadespring Tue, Nov 23, 2010 3:57:31am |
| 31 |
Jadespring Tue, Nov 23, 2010 4:04:57am |
I'm supposed to come up with some goals and think about the reasons I'm gyming it. So far I've got.... I need to exercise more because I really, really like food. Eating good food like butter and fat and sugar and everything else yummy is just non-negotiable and exercising more means I can eat more.
I'm not sure if this reason will go over very well. :)
| 33 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Nov 23, 2010 4:17:43am |
I am prepared to meet my Maker. Whether my Maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter.
- Winston Churchill
Good Morning Lizard HONCOS!!
| 34 |
freetoken Tue, Nov 23, 2010 4:30:06am |
re: #31 Jadespring
Sounds good to me.
When I was at my most active (daily dancing and gym visits) I burnt enough calories to essentially eat anything, and given my fondness for chocolate...
| 35 |
Jadespring Tue, Nov 23, 2010 4:42:45am |
re: #34 freetoken
Sounds good to me.
When I was at my most active (daily dancing and gym visits) I burnt enough calories to essentially eat anything, and given my fondness for chocolate...
:D Years ago I spent a couple of summers tree planting. Best shape I've ever been in and I not only could eat anything I had to eat tons. Dinner would consist of at least three plates of food including an entire plate of mashed potatoes slathered in butter, cheese or gravy. (heaven) I must have ate over 6000 calories per day and still lost weight.
| 36 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Nov 23, 2010 4:44:24am |
re: #35 Jadespring
I forget what he ate, but while training Michael Phelps' consumed over 12,000 calories per day.
| 37 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Nov 23, 2010 4:46:28am |
re: #36 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
(but Web MD says a person can't eat that much)
| 38 |
Taqyia2Me Tue, Nov 23, 2010 4:50:17am |
re: #37 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Michael Phelps could probably placed in the 'outlier' category...
| 39 |
Jadespring Tue, Nov 23, 2010 4:50:56am |
re: #38 Taqyia2Me
Michael Phelps could probably placed in the 'outlier' category...
I would think so.
| 40 |
Flounder Tue, Nov 23, 2010 4:56:00am |
Breakfast this moring: two cups of old fashioned oatmeal with five prunes a handful of dried cranberries and dates. That way I dont feel guilty about lunch!
| 41 |
Taqyia2Me Tue, Nov 23, 2010 5:02:07am |
re: #39 Jadespring
Or, more accurately, the out-butterf-lier category! :)
| 42 |
Jadespring Tue, Nov 23, 2010 5:10:07am |
re: #40 Shropshire_Slasher
Breakfast this moring: two cups of old fashioned oatmeal with five prunes a handful of dried cranberries and dates. That way I dont feel guilty about lunch!
I just had oatmeal too. No fruit though, just a bit of maple syrup.
| 43 |
DaddyG Tue, Nov 23, 2010 5:38:56am |
re: #36 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I forget what he ate, but while training Michael Phelps' consumed over 12,000 calories per day.
After the olympics he consumed 15,000 calories in Cheetos and Oreos every time he got the munchies. /
| 44 |
DaddyG Tue, Nov 23, 2010 5:41:41am |
I can understand some angry blogging over teen girls voting a Disney star and a politicians daughter back on Dancing With The Stars every week despite the low dance scores.
I can understand letters of protest when Brandi and Florence Henderson get the short end of the popularity stick due to cell phone voting demographics.
But death threats and powder sent to the studio?!?!
The Palin derangement syndrome goes deep with some.
| 45 |
DaddyG Tue, Nov 23, 2010 5:45:29am |
...oh. And Jennifer Grey's nose job made her look like every other starlet and ruined her career. I'm just sayin.
| 46 |
HAL2010 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 5:55:50am |
Ultimately, solving the North Korea problem is going to happen when the Chinese finally decide that they are through with propping up an erratic regime that seems to be trying to turn itself into the modern world’s first hereditary dictatorship. When that happens, I think we’ll find things will change dramatically, and quickly, on the Korean peninsula.
Good ... Afternoon Lizards
| 47 |
lawhawk Tue, Nov 23, 2010 6:18:18am |
re: #21 freetoken
The past two years have been marked with several particularly high profile military incidents. The sinking of the Cheonan killing 46 on board, when coupled with this attack suggests that the North Koreans are becoming more belligerent and are looking to see what the South (and US) is going to do.
They're probing to see what kind of response and whether they can extract more concessions.
The South Koreans are not likely to absorb more of these kinds of incidents without pushing back hard on their own (or with UN/US assistance).
And China continues to let the tail wag the dog.
| 50 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Nov 23, 2010 6:30:58am |
re: #45 DaddyG
...oh. And Jennifer Grey's nose job made her look like every other starlet and ruined her career. I'm just sayin.
Absolutely.
I liked her first nose much better, it gave her face a bit of different character than everybody else. She should have embraced that.
| 51 |
Political Atheist Tue, Nov 23, 2010 6:38:35am |
re: #12 SpaceJesus
And the North has nuclear capabilities. Thank you Asea Brown Bovery for selling them that technology. Thank you Rumsfeld for being on their board of directors when they did that.
Was that nuclear power generation technology? As a follow on to a deal signed off on by two Presidents, as in Clinton and Bush? And a bunch of countries?
[Link: www.armscontrol.org...]
[Link: www.armscontrol.org...]
Naaw. It's really all about Rumsfeld.
///
| 52 |
Gus Tue, Nov 23, 2010 6:41:10am |
North Korea shells South Korean Island. Asian markets fall and the DOW opens with a drop of 117 points. Western leaders "condemn" the attack. World waits while to see how China "reacts". UN typing pool prepares strongly worded letter of condemnation to North Korea.
Film @ 11.
| 53 |
Shiplord Kirel Tue, Nov 23, 2010 6:53:44am |
re: #17 RadicalModerate
A second South Korean soldier has died, it appears.
Also, 17 soldiers and three civilians are injured.[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]
Oh, and the idiots over at FR are already blaming Obama for this.
Naturally. Like many delusional beliefs, ODS has settled down to a few internally consistent rules:
As the world's leading Marxist dictator, the Kenyan usurper must give the go-ahead for any such action by his comrades in Pyongyang. He doesn't simply order US forces to stand down because that would make his real agenda too obvious and risk a widespread uprising against the SEIU/media/ACORN coalition that keeps him in power. Besides, he's just evil, not being a Christian and all.
| 54 |
Gus Tue, Nov 23, 2010 6:53:53am |
re: #18 Kim Jong-Il
HA HA HA! How you rike me now, you FUCKING ASSHOLES!?
OK... How much money do you need this time?
//
| 55 |
Political Atheist Tue, Nov 23, 2010 6:58:13am |
re: #53 Shiplord Kirel
The critics just will not absorb the relevant history and agreements. NK has been a thorn for every President during their short existence. Damn shame when news is just grist for the various derangement syndromes.
| 56 |
A Man for all Seasons Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:07:42am |
Good Morning..Wow..What a way to wake up watching the developments in Korea...
| 57 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:08:17am |
| 58 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:10:42am |
re: #50 reine.de.tout
Absolutely.
I liked her first nose much better, it gave her face a bit of different character than everybody else. She should have embraced that.
Maybe a TSA agent will do that!
| 60 |
darthstar Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:11:33am |
I finally figured out why Bristol Palin went on Dancing with the Stars. She did it to protect her family from publicity and embarrassment. She knows that if she didn't do the show, then Sarah would have, and she would have asked if she could buy an R.
| 61 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:12:07am |
re: #51 Rightwingconspirator
Naaw. It's really all about Rumsfeld
Thats easy to see when you look at it with one eye closed!
| 62 |
iossarian Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:16:31am |
re: #53 Shiplord Kirel
As the world's leading Marxist dictator, the Kenyan usurper must give the go-ahead for any such action by his comrades in Pyongyang. He doesn't simply order US forces to stand down because that would make his real agenda too obvious and risk a widespread uprising against the SEIU/media/ACORNcoalition that keeps him in power. Besides, he's just evil, not being a Christian and all.
I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
| 63 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:18:57am |
re: #62 iossarian
I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
For four easy payments of $29.95
But wait ,, there's MORE
If you order within the next 15 minutes ,,,,,
| 64 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:21:47am |
Here's astory that should give you the warm and fuzzies as we hit the highways this holiday season!
Nuclear weapons drivers involved in alcohol-related incidents
[Link: www.boston.com...]
Oy !
| 65 |
Wozza Matter? Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:22:59am |
seens to be a developing trend of people sweeping the award of bottom comments.
| 66 |
Shiplord Kirel Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:23:51am |
re: #62 iossarian
I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Excellent! And be sure to check out our new line of probiotic, mercury-free nutriceutical health supplements, now fortified with genuine King James brand® Holy Land olive oil! The sure cure for PMS, ED, so-called "cancer," and (now) radiation poisoning.
| 67 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:26:08am |
re: #65 wozzablog
seens to be a developing trend of people sweeping the award of bottom comments.
heh,, the one that "earned" him a -4 seems rather benign, though!?!?
| 68 |
Gus Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:27:14am |
Burp:
Rumsfeld sat on ABB's board from 1990 to 2001. ABB—based in Zürich, Switzerland—is a European engineering giant formed through the merger between ASEA of Sweden and Brown Boveri of Switzerland. In 2000 this company sold two light-water nuclear reactors to KEDO for installation in North Korea, as part of the 1994 agreed framework reached under President Bill Clinton.
D'oh!
| 69 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:27:27am |
How to break all your bones on a bike
Unless you happen to be a Jedi knight, which this guy apparently is.
| 70 |
DaddyG Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:27:44am |
re: #50 reine.de.tout
Absolutely.
I liked her first nose much better, it gave her face a bit of different character than everybody else. She should have embraced that.
I don't blame her. She was young and probably got tons of advice on how to "perfect" her look.
She's still a beautiful woman and loaded with talent (Like her Dad - the talent part I mean not the woman part). She just removed one of her most endearing character traits. I have to admire women who stick with their natural beauty in the entertainment industry with so much pressure to be different than who they are.
| 71 |
lawhawk Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:29:03am |
And now the question we were all afraid to ask has been answered:
Who wins between Vader or Voldemort?
Voldemort wins on the points.
| 72 |
Wozza Matter? Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:29:05am |
re: #67 sattv4u2
heh,, the one that "earned" him a -4 seems rather benign, though!?!?
Generally it's accumulated down dings for passive aggressive unwillingness to accept any form of reality.
| 73 |
Bubblehead II Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:30:49am |
Morning Lizards. Got a bit of a surprise this morning. My manager called and gave me a snow day because the roads are so bad. She is taking one as well as she had to turn around and go home for the same reason.
| 74 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:31:35am |
re: #72 wozzablog
Generally it's accumulated down dings for passive aggressive unwillingness to accept any form of reality.
I know,, but still,, people need to move on and downding AN "offensive" comment, not a knee jerk reaction to "a" poster (imho)
| 75 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:32:25am |
re: #73 Bubblehead II
Morning Lizards. Got a bit of a surprise this morning. My manager called and gave me a snow day because the roads are so bad. She is taking one as well as she had to turn around and go home for the same reason.
Cool,,,,,, Seeing that it's getting into the 70's here, I doubt I'll be joining you!!
:)
| 76 |
Bubblehead II Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:37:46am |
re: #75 sattv4u2
We are currently under a blizzard watch/warning.
I just hope the Wife will be able to make it home this afternoon. If it gets too bad the DOT will close hwy 93.
| 77 |
Wozza Matter? Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:38:36am |
re: #74 sattv4u2
I know,, but still,, people need to move on and downding AN "offensive" comment, not a knee jerk reaction to "a" poster (imho)
Says you.
///////
| 79 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:41:02am |
re: #76 Bubblehead II
We are currently under a blizzard watch/warning.
I just hope the Wife will be able to make it home this afternoon. If it gets too bad the DOT will close hwy 93.
Been There
Done That
Made and Sod the T-Shirts
(I had a screen printing biz back 'in the day" in Boston.,,, sold shirts stating "I Survived The Blizzard Of '78)
[Link: www.google.com...]
| 81 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:43:19am |
re: #76 Bubblehead II
re: #79 sattv4u2
Been There
Done That
Made and SoLd the T-Shirts
(I had a screen printing biz back 'in the day" in Boston.,,, sold shirts stating "I Survived The Blizzard Of '78)[Link: www.google.com...]
(makes more sense than SOD!)
pimf
| 87 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:57:04am |
re: #85 lawhawk
Live video of Old Faithful.
Our marketing team is working on a New and Improved Faithful!
| 88 |
Donna Ballard Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:57:49am |
re: #31 Jadespring
I'm supposed to come up with some goals and think about the reasons I'm gyming it. So far I've got... I need to exercise more because I really, really like food. Eating good food like butter and fat and sugar and everything else yummy is just non-negotiable and exercising more means I can eat more.
I'm not sure if this reason will go over very well. :)
Not to mention the smaller size when it comes time for new clothes! I started working out in June and so far I've lost 17lbs and three inches off my waist, my back feels so much better and my Rheumatoid Arthritis isn't bothering me so badly even though it's getting cold out, woo who! I like it, I like it a lot!!! And yes that reason is perfect. Go for it! ;)
| 89 |
Political Atheist Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:58:01am |
Gold Market reaction to the NK news... My reaction? Ouch. Or a series of expletives.
[Link: www.kitco.com...]
Live chart, so I'm not going to Page it.
| 91 |
Bubblehead II Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:02:19am |
Starting to get nasty out there.
| 92 |
Donna Ballard Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:02:35am |
| 93 |
DaddyG Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:03:45am |
re: #87 sattv4u2
Our marketing team is working on a New and Improved Faithful!
Elin Woods and Eva Longoria were called in to consult on the New Faithful concept.
| 94 |
avanti Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:03:53am |
Maybe the Bush/Obama auto bailout is becoming more popular.
For the first time, most Americans don’t think last year’s government bailout of General Motors and Chrysler was a bad move.
A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that just 46% of Adults say that it was bad idea for the federal government to provide bailout funding for GM and Chrysler. Thirty-eight percent (38%) say the bailouts were a good idea, but 16% remain undecided.
| 95 |
Gus Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:04:01am |
re: #91 Bubblehead II
Starting to get nasty out there.
Better to drive faster in those condition before more snow accumulates. Especially if you have a Jeep Wagoneer.
//
| 96 |
DaddyG Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:05:17am |
re: #94 avanti Will the original stockholders get any relief from this?
(Serious question - I never have found out how the stockholders who took the original hit fared?)
| 97 |
Donna Ballard Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:05:21am |
Think I'll make a batch of peanut butter fudge this morning, anybody want some? ;)
| 98 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:05:28am |
re: #89 Rightwingconspirator
5 (or so) years ago I started buying in at $550-600 range
This summer/ fall I started selling some off @ just over $1300
I have bought new heating and A/C units (2 complete zone systems for our primary residence and a new system for a rental property we have) as well as painting the house and a few other "home improvement" projects
| 99 |
DaddyG Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:05:49am |
re: #97 Dragon_Lady
Think I'll make a batch of peanut butter fudge this morning, anybody want some? ;)
We'll eat it on our jog through the snow. /
| 100 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:06:26am |
re: #97 Dragon_Lady
Think I'll make a batch of peanut butter fudge this morning, anybody want some? ;)
Free delivery!?!?!
| 101 |
Donna Ballard Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:06:49am |
re: #99 DaddyG
We'll eat it on our jog through the snow. /
Or you could use it to make your shoes have more traction in the snow... ;)
| 102 |
Political Atheist Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:06:55am |
re: #92 Dragon_Lady
Just getting started. Quiet as usual when we have a spike in the market.
| 103 |
DaddyG Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:07:28am |
re: #101 Dragon_Lady
Or you could use it to make your shoes have more traction in the snow... ;)
When that happens I'll eat my shoes. Really. No sarc.
| 104 |
Donna Ballard Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:07:55am |
re: #100 sattv4u2
Free delivery!?!?!
Drop me an email and I'll ship you some! Blue light is on for the next few minutes okay?
| 105 |
DaddyG Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:09:55am |
Were going to try Pralines this week. I picked up some marble tiles at the big box store that were broken around the edges. Perfect for cooling the treats.
We decided to send those with homemade wild blackberry jelly and plum jam for Christmas this year.
| 106 |
Donna Ballard Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:10:35am |
re: #105 DaddyG
Were going to try Pralines this week. I picked up some marble tiles at the big box store that were broken around the edges. Perfect for cooling the treats.
We decided to send those with homemade wild blackberry jelly and plum jam for Christmas this year.
Noms! Sounds great!
| 107 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:11:28am |
Speaking of which )"home improvement" projects) heading to Home Depot to get some Thompsons Wood Sealer
Pressure washed the back deck and front porch the other day and it's dry enough now to seal!
| 108 |
Political Atheist Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:12:32am |
re: #106 Dragon_Lady
Hey if that export render looks good, upload it to you tube for me OK? I want to page it.
| 109 |
Donna Ballard Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:13:03am |
re: #108 Rightwingconspirator
Hey if that export render looks good, upload it to you tube for me OK? I want to page it.
Ok, I'll give it a try.
| 111 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:14:26am |
| 112 |
Nervous Norvous Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:14:28am |
I feel like such an underachiever today. I didn't even get brownies baked last night despite several imploring looks from PT Junior. We'll get it done tonight though. He's getting pretty interested in cooking with Dad, so I want to encourage him so he doesn't end up like my oldest son who can't cook anything that doesn't go straight from the container into the oven or the microwave.
| 114 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:15:42am |
Some video of the NK attack on SK is starting to emerge.
| 115 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:16:02am |
| 116 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:16:37am |
re: #111 sattv4u2
Check behind the paint counter.
Dented cans, baby.
Last year got some high end stuff for 80% off because the can was dented. Five gallon bucket for 15.00, IIRC.
| 117 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:17:12am |
re: #116 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I only noticed by accident.
| 118 |
DaddyG Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:17:15am |
| 119 |
Donna Ballard Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:17:37am |
re: #108 Rightwingconspirator
Hey if that export render looks good, upload it to you tube for me OK? I want to page it.
Hey how do you want it titles? What category? What tag line so you can find it? What?
| 120 |
Political Atheist Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:20:58am |
re: #119 Dragon_Lady
Glendora Ridge Sunset, Art, Canon7d
| 121 |
avanti Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:21:18am |
re: #96 DaddyG
Will the original stockholders get any relief from this?
(Serious question - I never have found out how the stockholders who took the original hit fared?)
Nope, as with most bankruptcies, the holders of the old companies stock are SOL just as they would have been if it went under normally..
| 122 |
Donna Ballard Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:22:35am |
| 123 |
DaddyG Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:23:45am |
re: #121 avanti
Thanks. Ouch. Lots of pensions hurting over that one.
| 124 |
garhighway Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:25:45am |
re: #123 DaddyG
Thanks. Ouch. Lots of pensions hurting over that one.
No doubt. But that's the nature of owning equities. That is a risk play.
| 125 |
Nervous Norvous Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:25:59am |
re: #123 DaddyG
Thanks. Ouch. Lots of pensions hurting over that one.
So where would they have been if the bailout hadn't happened?
Can someone explain to me why the bailout qualified as socialism?
(I don't think it did, but I'm trying to understand the mindset)
| 126 |
Political Atheist Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:26:47am |
LA Times had a brilliantly timed piece this am
The NK's are a strange bunch.
North Korean Negotiation Mind Games
| 127 |
avanti Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:26:54am |
Yet another poll about the GOP's "mandate" to kill the heath care bill.
WASHINGTON — A majority of Americans want the Congress to keep the new health care law or actually expand it, despite Republican claims that they have a mandate from the people to kill it, according to a new McClatchy-Marist poll.
The post-election survey showed that 51 percent of registered voters want to keep the law or change it to do more, while 44 percent want to change it to do less or repeal it altogether.
| 128 |
Nervous Norvous Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:29:55am |
re: #127 avanti
The post-election survey showed that 51 percent of registered voters want to keep the law or change it to do more, while 44 percent want to change it to do less or repeal it altogether.
Think that number will continue to go up as people discover what the thing actually does as opposed to what FOX news has been telling them it does.
| 129 |
researchok Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:29:59am |
re: #127 avanti
Yet another poll about the GOP's "mandate" to kill the heath care bill.
WASHINGTON — A majority of Americans want the Congress to keep the new health care law or actually expand it, despite Republican claims that they have a mandate from the people to kill it, according to a new McClatchy-Marist poll.
The post-election survey showed that 51 percent of registered voters want to keep the law or change it to do more, while 44 percent want to change it to do less or repeal it altogether.
That goes against a whole lot of other polls.
I'd like to see the questions and the sampling of voters asked.
| 130 |
garhighway Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:30:53am |
Meanwhile, on the Hill a member of the GOP leadership wants to abolish part of the 14th Amendment:
[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]
| 131 |
Nervous Norvous Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:31:28am |
re: #129 researchok
That goes against a whole lot of other polls.
I'd like to see the questions and the sampling of voters asked.
A lot of it depends on whether the person is asked about "Obamacare" or about actual items in the bill.
| 132 |
Nervous Norvous Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:32:13am |
re: #130 garhighway
Meanwhile, on the Hill a member of the GOP leadership wants to abolish part of the 14th Amendment:
[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]
Steve King is a clown. I'm ashamed to admit he's from Iowa, and he's by no means a typical example of an Iowan.
| 133 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:33:47am |
re: #132 PT Barnum
Oooh theeere's
nothing halfway about the Iowa way to treat you
when we treat you which we may not do at all
There's an Iowa kind of special "chip on the shoulder" attitude
We've never been without as we recall.
| 134 |
lawhawk Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:34:10am |
re: #125 PT Barnum
It goes to the shifting of risk of loss from everyone involved in the companies' failures on to taxpayers who did nothing to cause or continue the problem. The failure of GM and Chrysler were because the businesses could not control their costs, and sold their primary product at ever widening losses. Product volume may be the metric that everyone gravitates to, but it doesn't address the fundamental health of a company - profits do. When you need to sell every vehicle at a loss - either because each vehicle costs more than it can sell for (accounting for rebates and incentives to move vehicle stock), that doesn't foster a healthy business plan.
Ford managed to avoid the problems by restructuring its debt and working out better deals with its workforce. GM and Chrysler got taxpayer bailouts, which still resulted in expedited bankruptcies - bankruptcies that created taxpayer majority ownership in the companies. The stock sale reduced the ownership share by the feds, but competing interests are at work - the need to reduce the federal ownership, and improving the share price. Selling the stock undermines the price, which in turn reduces the money that taxpayers recover.
And right now the UAW is demanding that the automakers start rolling back the very concessions that helped the automakers begin recovering, even though their pay is comparable to that of the Japanese and foreign automakers who have union-free shops in the US. If the UAW succeeds in rolling back the concessions, the US automakers will be right back in the red ink because they would face higher production costs than their competitors.
| 135 |
garhighway Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:34:38am |
re: #132 PT Barnum
Steve King is a clown. I'm ashamed to admit he's from Iowa, and he's by no means a typical example of an Iowan.
One of the bad things we get by having safe seats in Congress is representatives like Charley Rangle and Steve King. When you know your seat is safe, it is easier to be a jerk.
| 136 |
researchok Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:34:42am |
re: #131 PT Barnum
A lot of it depends on whether the person is asked about "Obamacare" or about actual items in the bill.
Excellent point.
Overall, I think if Obamacare were really the linchpin issue, Dem candidates would have rode that home on the last election.
You might be surprised, but I actually like a lot of the Obamacare plan.
I do take issue with how it is proposed to be paid for and in the initial implementation (too much, too fast).
| 137 |
garhighway Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:36:45am |
re: #134 lawhawk
And right now the UAW is demanding that the automakers start rolling back the very concessions that helped the automakers begin recovering, even though their pay is comparable to that of the Japanese and foreign automakers who have union-free shops in the US. If the UAW succeeds in rolling back the concessions, the US automakers will be right back in the red ink because they would face higher production costs than their competitors.
Demanding and getting are two different things.
| 138 |
BishopX Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:36:56am |
re: #129 researchok
I think it's the difference between "keep the law" and "Keep the law or increase the law".
I had a (brief) job doing phone solicitation in to support the reform bill last year, about a third of the people on my list wanted a stronger law.
| 139 |
researchok Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:38:54am |
re: #138 BishopX
I think it's the difference between "keep the law" and "Keep the law or increase the law".
I had a (brief) job doing phone solicitation in to support the reform bill last year, about a third of the people on my list wanted a stronger law.
Could be. Like I said, I'd like to see the questions and the sampling info.
Overall, I'm not fond of polls. Way too easy to manipulate.
| 140 |
garhighway Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:39:32am |
re: #136 researchok
Excellent point.
Overall, I think if Obamacare were really the linchpin issue, Dem candidates would have rode that home on the last election.
You might be surprised, but I actually like a lot of the Obamacare plan.
I do take issue with how it is proposed to be paid for and in the initial implementation (too much, too fast).
I have yet to hear someone defend the concept of denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions.
Obama ran on getting Health Care Reform done, so it wasn't surprising to see him push hard for it. He went with the most middle-of-the-road, free market plan possible that was still meaningful.
| 141 |
DaddyG Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:39:39am |
re: #139 researchok
Overall, I'm not fond of polls. Way too easy to manipulate.
2 out of 3 people surveyed don't care what you think. /
| 142 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:40:56am |
re: #141 DaddyG
2 out of 3 people surveyed don't care what you think. /
78.9% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
| 143 |
researchok Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:41:39am |
re: #134 lawhawk
It goes to the shifting of risk of loss from everyone involved in the companies' failures on to taxpayers who did nothing to cause or continue the problem. The failure of GM and Chrysler were because the businesses could not control their costs, and sold their primary product at ever widening losses. Product volume may be the metric that everyone gravitates to, but it doesn't address the fundamental health of a company - profits do. When you need to sell every vehicle at a loss - either because each vehicle costs more than it can sell for (accounting for rebates and incentives to move vehicle stock), that doesn't foster a healthy business plan.
Ford managed to avoid the problems by restructuring its debt and working out better deals with its workforce. GM and Chrysler got taxpayer bailouts, which still resulted in expedited bankruptcies - bankruptcies that created taxpayer majority ownership in the companies. The stock sale reduced the ownership share by the feds, but competing interests are at work - the need to reduce the federal ownership, and improving the share price. Selling the stock undermines the price, which in turn reduces the money that taxpayers recover.
And right now the UAW is demanding that the automakers start rolling back the very concessions that helped the automakers begin recovering, even though their pay is comparable to that of the Japanese and foreign automakers who have union-free shops in the US. If the UAW succeeds in rolling back the concessions, the US automakers will be right back in the red ink because they would face higher production costs than their competitors.
Bottom line is that legacy costs have to be contained.
Further, I'd like to see more union contributions to those legacy costs.
| 144 |
researchok Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:42:06am |
re: #142 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
78.9% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
I think you meant to say 74.56.
//
| 145 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:43:19am |
re: #142 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
78.9% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
Sex Panther: 60% of the time, it works everytime!
| 146 |
Donna Ballard Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:43:42am |
See you later Lizards, time to go make fudge. Keep Laughing Everyone!
| 147 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:43:42am |
re: #134 lawhawk
"We lose a thousand dollars on each one we sell, but we make it up in volume."
| 148 |
Nervous Norvous Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:44:35am |
re: #136 researchok
Excellent point.
Overall, I think if Obamacare were really the linchpin issue, Dem candidates would have rode that home on the last election.
You might be surprised, but I actually like a lot of the Obamacare plan.
I do take issue with how it is proposed to be paid for and in the initial implementation (too much, too fast).
I think the problems have more to do with the way we view healthcare in this country. It's not treated as a truly market driven commodity that consumers can make good informed choices about.
I've written this before:
1) Fee for service has to go in favor of a fee by diagnosis model (more like when you take your car in). They bill you by a book rate for that particular problem with an additional % to cover complications, etc. Total cost of a visit to the patient cannot go over the base fee plus the percentage.
To the extent that they can do it faster and cheaper they make more money. This encourages innovation. Medicare pays at a reduced rate from this with incentives based on objective metrics like readmission rate, infections, mistakes, etc.
Prices by diagnosis are required to be made public.
2) Doctors and hospitals are required to make their objective metrics public.
| 149 |
lawhawk Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:47:37am |
re: #137 garhighway
Demand and get are two different things, but anything resembling a return to the pre-bankruptcy days for GM or Chrysler (and by extension Ford, each of which negotiates separately with the UAW) will force a return to red ink as this story from the pre-bankruptcy days shows:
An hour of labor at a U.S. auto plant costs around $74, while the same hour of work at a Toyota or Honda plant is closer to $50. That $24 difference is cited as one reason Detroit has had trouble competing in the car market. Take-home pay is comparable, averaging around $29 per hour for GM, Chrysler and Ford, and around $27 an hour for the Japanese manufacturers. (Ford, which says it has enough cash to survive in the short term, was not part of the bailout.)But, as part of their contract agreements with the United Auto Workers, the Detroit Three also pay the cost of health care for life for their retirees, along with a generous pension package.
Those retiree "legacy costs" mean an extra $16-$18 per hour in costs compared to the $3 per hour that the Japanese automakers spend in retiree benefits, according to the Oliver Wyman consulting firm that publishes the Harbour Report, a labor productivity analysis for car manufacturers.
The bankruptcy shifted the health and legacy costs, and rollbacks on the pensions or pay (adjusting the 2-tier system) means that the wage/compensation package may again favor the foreign brands by a significant margin.
| 150 |
researchok Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:51:57am |
re: #149 lawhawk
Demand and get are two different things, but anything resembling a return to the pre-bankruptcy days for GM or Chrysler (and by extension Ford, each of which negotiates separately with the UAW) will force a return to red ink as this story from the pre-bankruptcy days shows:
The bankruptcy shifted the health and legacy costs, and rollbacks on the pensions or pay (adjusting the 2-tier system) means that the wage/compensation package may again favor the foreign brands by a significant margin.
You can take that to the bank.
| 151 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:52:36am |
Why can't right wingers read?
Seriously, why can't they read?
Their own links rarely say what they think they say - after having fixated on one word or phrase out of context, they miss the rest of whatever it is that says the opposite. This is true in terms of history, science, news etc...
Why can't they read posts?
Something is said clearly and it is right there in front of them and explained three times. Still, they can not read.
Why can they not even read their own stuff as they contradict themselves on the very same threads claiming the opposite of what they had claimed before?
How do people that dumb use a computer in the first place?
| 152 |
researchok Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:53:14am |
re: #148 PT Barnum
I think the problems have more to do with the way we view healthcare in this country. It's not treated as a truly market driven commodity that consumers can make good informed choices about.
I've written this before:
1) Fee for service has to go in favor of a fee by diagnosis model (more like when you take your car in). They bill you by a book rate for that particular problem with an additional % to cover complications, etc. Total cost of a visit to the patient cannot go over the base fee plus the percentage.
To the extent that they can do it faster and cheaper they make more money. This encourages innovation. Medicare pays at a reduced rate from this with incentives based on objective metrics like readmission rate, infections, mistakes, etc.Prices by diagnosis are required to be made public.
2) Doctors and hospitals are required to make their objective metrics public.
Even a hybridized system that included some of those ideas would be an improvement.
| 153 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:53:30am |
re: #150 researchok
I would love your musings on my 151. You frequently wrote me about people not getting what was written. You have intimated some deep psychological knowledge.
| 154 |
lawhawk Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:53:39am |
re: #116 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
That reminds me that I've got to do some paint and trim work before the New Year... have been procrastinating because it's so prep intensive and mostly involves patching and sanding and painting stair risers... ugh...
| 155 |
lazardo Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:53:51am |
re: #1 goddamnedfrank
North Korea artillery fire hits South island
Well ... fuck.
Also good evening.
| 156 |
researchok Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:54:13am |
re: #151 LudwigVanQuixote
Why can't right wingers read?
Seriously, why can't they read?
Their own links rarely say what they think they say - after having fixated on one word or phrase out of context, they miss the rest of whatever it is that says the opposite. This is true in terms of history, science, news etc...
Why can't they read posts?
Something is said clearly and it is right there in front of them and explained three times. Still, they can not read.
Why can they not even read their own stuff as they contradict themselves on the very same threads claiming the opposite of what they had claimed before?
How do people that dumb use a computer in the first place?
To what are you referring?
| 157 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:55:57am |
re: #156 researchok
To what are you referring?
A repeated pattern that I have seen many times in the inability of right wingers to read ni the course of their "debates." They frequently do not read the thing they are bringing as "evidence" if they bring anything at all. They lack reading comprehension of what is said to them and they lack the ability to even be consistent with their own posts.
| 158 |
garhighway Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:56:39am |
re: #149 lawhawk
Demand and get are two different things, but anything resembling a return to the pre-bankruptcy days for GM or Chrysler (and by extension Ford, each of which negotiates separately with the UAW) will force a return to red ink
Of course.
Therefore, any company management that gives it to them doesn't deserve to exist. The company needs to learn to say "no".
| 159 |
NJDhockeyfan Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:57:28am |
Morning lizards! My mom is here and we have been getting ready for Thanksgiving and missing the news. I can't wait for all the food & football.
I did see the Norks are pushing their luck this morning.
| 160 |
Four More Tears Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:59:02am |
Sooo... is Korea about to blow up or something?
| 161 |
lazardo Tue, Nov 23, 2010 8:59:35am |
re: #158 garhighway
Of course.
Therefore, any company management that gives it to them doesn't deserve to exist. The company needs to learn to say "no".
"But they're undermining workers' rights by investing in states without them!"
/checking
| 162 |
Lateralis Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:00:25am |
re: #151 LudwigVanQuixote
And all these years I thought I could read.
| 163 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:01:16am |
re: #160 JasonA
Sooo... is Korea about to blow up or something?
Probably not. The Norks are having one of their periodic hissy fits. Notice me! Notice me!!! Of course, two people had to die for this hissy fit.
| 164 |
Shiplord Kirel Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:01:56am |
re: #151 LudwigVanQuixote
Why can't right wingers read?
Seriously, why can't they read?
Their own links rarely say what they think they say - after having fixated on one word or phrase out of context, they miss the rest of whatever it is that says the opposite. This is true in terms of history, science, news etc...
Why can't they read posts?
Something is said clearly and it is right there in front of them and explained three times. Still, they can not read.
Why can they not even read their own stuff as they contradict themselves on the very same threads claiming the opposite of what they had claimed before?
How do people that dumb use a computer in the first place?
Jesus quoted scripture out of context so WNs think it must be ok. (The linked article actually endorses taking scripture out of context.)
| 165 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:02:32am |
re: #162 Lateralis
And all these years I thought I could read.
Ohh I was talking about right wingers as in wingnuts. Are you a wingnut? Did you read that correctly?
| 166 |
NJDhockeyfan Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:02:54am |
re: #160 JasonA
Sooo... is Korea about to blow up or something?
From BBC:
South Korea says it will retaliate with missile strikes against the North if faced with "further provocations", after an exchange of fire in which two South Korean marines were killed.
After an emergency meeting, President Lee Myung-bak said "indiscriminate attacks" would "never be tolerated".
...But North Korea's supreme military command blamed South Korea for the incident.
"The South Korean enemy, despite our repeated warnings, committed reckless military provocations of firing artillery shells into our maritime territory near Yeonpyeong island beginning 1300 (0400 GMT)," the state-run KCNA news agency quoted it as saying.
The North will strike back if South Korea "dares to invade our sea territory by 0.001mm", it warned.
Lets hope cooler heads prevail but if the Norks can't do that may they feel lots of pain by SK & the US.
| 167 |
Four More Tears Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:03:58am |
| 168 |
Lateralis Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:06:03am |
re: #165 LudwigVanQuixote
No. You said right winger. Wingnut is a completely different story.
| 169 |
lazardo Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:08:00am |
re: #167 JasonA
I wish China would grow a pair and tell their little cousins to sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up.
My guess is that China wants to let them start it so they have an excuse to btfo. If they do end up supporting the North, it'll look bad for their investments.
| 170 |
lazardo Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:08:22am |
re: #165 LudwigVanQuixote
Ohh I was talking about right wingers as in wingnuts. Are you a wingnut? Did you read that correctly?
Let's just say 'conservative' and be done with semantics.
| 171 |
kirkspencer Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:08:44am |
re: #136 researchok
Excellent point.
Overall, I think if Obamacare were really the linchpin issue, Dem candidates would have rode that home on the last election.
You might be surprised, but I actually like a lot of the Obamacare plan.
I do take issue with how it is proposed to be paid for and in the initial implementation (too much, too fast).
OK, so how do you propose it be paid?
As to implementation speed, the main benefits won't even happen till 2013 and 2014. That's a four year delay. So I have to ask just how long you thought it should take, anyway?
| 172 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:09:30am |
re: #167 JasonA
I wish China would grow a pair and tell their little cousins to sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up.
China is pretty dependent on US as a trading partner at this point. They might be susceptible to pressure. I'm wondering about the possibility of a military solution. If we provided the air power could the south Korean army do the leg work? Norks are using Soviet era technology, we could wrap this thing up for good in a week or two. I don't think there's much chance of an Iraq style insurgency campaign once the military work is done.
| 173 |
Four More Tears Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:11:14am |
re: #172 Killgore Trout
China is pretty dependent on US as a trading partner at this point. They might be susceptible to pressure. I'm wondering about the possibility of a military solution. If we provided the air power could the south Korean army do the leg work? Norks are using Soviet era technology, we could wrap this thing up for good in a week or two. I don't think there's much chance of an Iraq style insurgency campaign once the military work is done.
Yeah, I doubt the populace would see it as anything more than another regime change. Hell, all we have to is send over some Big Macs and they'll love us.
| 174 |
researchok Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:11:23am |
re: #157 LudwigVanQuixote
A repeated pattern that I have seen many times in the inability of right wingers to read ni the course of their "debates." They frequently do not read the thing they are bringing as "evidence" if they bring anything at all. They lack reading comprehension of what is said to them and they lack the ability to even be consistent with their own posts.
OK, Now I understand. I will try to answer your question.
As I noted in a comment to you yesterday, scientists (the good ones, anyway) understand that anomalies and nuance only add to the body of knowledge and insight. That is to day, with each question, the opportunity arises to further understand and explain a particular situation. That is so because for the most part scientists welcome challenge and warranted skepticism. The scientists I know (of both hard and soft sciences) actually welcome the challenges, because those challenges clarify their own science. Sometimes their beliefs are fortified, other times they are modified. In both cases, the body of knowledge is added to.
Politics is the antithesis of science.
Facts are far less important that is the desired narrative. In fact, controlling the narrative trumps all.
Imagine, LVQ, a world in which a 'leader' says 'The world is flat' and won't allow any real debate on the subject. Further, that leader wants to introduce flat earth sciences into schools.
Of course, this isn't a one way street. There are others who want to teach that religion is the root of all evil.
As a scientist, you would say, 'OK, lets look at the facts', a perfectly reasonable idea. Nevertheless, the political ideologues are terrified of that because facts might (read: WILL) upend their narrative and in doing so, have less opportunity to keep the troops in lockstep. You get the picture. All of politics is built on that model- some moreso, some less so- but that is the model.
The Palestinians are a perfect example of this. No one in positions of power or influence takes them seriously (how could they). Still, they have managed to control a fantasy narrative that keeps them as permanent victims (and thus attractive to the west). That narrative has succeeded in erasing the immorality and depravity that are part and parcel of their identity).
People see and hear what they are told they need to see and hear.
More later.
| 175 |
Nervous Norvous Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:12:31am |
re: #170 lazardo
Let's just say 'conservative' and be done with semantics.
Howzabout Wingnut Left turn and Wingnut right turn. or LWingnut or RWingnut
| 176 |
Shiplord Kirel Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:14:52am |
re: #164 Shiplord Kirel
Fundies know, of course, that they should use this wonderful device of ignoring context only when it suits their God's purposes.
They can get into trouble in a hurry otherwise. For example, in Psalms 14:1, we read that "there is no God."
What?! Was David a part-time atheist, as well as an adulterer and murderer?
Not when you read the whole verse, "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" (NIV)
| 177 |
NJDhockeyfan Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:16:26am |
re: #172 Killgore Trout
China is pretty dependent on US as a trading partner at this point. They might be susceptible to pressure. I'm wondering about the possibility of a military solution. If we provided the air power could the south Korean army do the leg work? Norks are using Soviet era technology, we could wrap this thing up for good in a week or two. I don't think there's much chance of an Iraq style insurgency campaign once the military work is done.
That could work if China doesn't come in and help them. Remember what happened in the Korean War? I don't trust the ChiComs.
| 178 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:16:34am |
re: #164 Shiplord Kirel
Jesus quoted scripture out of context so WNs think it must be ok. (The linked article actually endorses taking scripture out of context.)
It depends on whether or not you know the context in the first place and what sort of verse you are taking. The context becomes important based on the context of the discussion at hand.
If I quoted "Thou shalt not steal" in the context of a conversation about larceny, the commandment about keeping Sabbath need not be brought up.
What is a much worse issue is when someone "religious" twists his philosophy into "Thou shalt steal!" and willfully ties biblical verses into pretzels to do so. The GOP types who argue that there is no call for social justice - or in the case of all too many corporate deals that screw over everyone else - a way to justify "thou shalt steal!" is a great example.
That (corruption of justice, which makes the righteous unrighteous and abuse of the needy) was considered the way of Sodom.
For those who think I am talking exagerrating please look at:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
Where I bring out the Kehati commentary on Avot 5:10
Interestingly enough, all of the 10 commandments can be thought of as meditations on not taking what is not yours and not keeping what you have a duty to give. In that sense, there is a very unifying context.
| 179 |
lostlakehiker Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:17:44am |
Speaking of light, here's a spot of good news. Pajamas media's Rick Moran is weighing in on AGW, and he grants that it's real. He dismisses the possibility of all scientists being in on a conspiracy, and goes on: nor is it possible that the data showing man’s imprint on climate — data gathered over many decades — have all been fudged, or pulled out of thin air.
It is an article of faith among many conservatives that climate change is sham science. Even worse, it is the nexus of a vast conspiracy involving governments, the UN, and climate scientists that is seeking to destroy the industrial economies of the West, create a one world government, and enrich people like Al Gore who have bet a bundle on a reduced carbon emissions future. They believe that either the earth is not warming at all, or that rising temperatures are the result of other phenomena like water vapor or the dearth of sunspot activity.
Facing off against them are a vast array of learned climate scientists armed with gigabytes of data, carefully calibrated models, and 600 years of experience in the process of discovering facts using the scientific method. The vast weight of evidence shows that the earth is warming and that man is mostly to blame. Hundreds of scientists and thousands of papers published in the most prestigious science journals in the world in a dozen different disciplines ranging from atmospheric physics to meteorology tell us that the preponderance of scientific evidence cannot be denied: we have a huge problem and we must address it.
It’s no contest, really. Climate change deniers are willing to suspend reason and logic while positing a monstrously large and unwieldy conspiracy to deny the “true facts” of global warming — thus accusing hundreds of reputable scientists of being charlatans, or worse. They can’t all be in on the conspiracy, nor is it possible that the data showing man’s imprint on climate — data gathered over many decades — have all been fudged, or pulled out of thin air.
Now this is a RW article, and it goes on from there with some RW talking points that won't get many updings in this corner. Still, it's heartening to see the ice beginning to break up across the aisle.
Even a little sanity is a start.
| 180 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:18:03am |
re: #168 Lateralis
No. You said right winger. Wingnut is a completely different story.
So you are someone who can't take context and fixates on one word?
OK yet another one who can not read.
Just to do a test, how many here misunderstood what I meant by "right winger" in that post?
| 181 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:19:37am |
The good guys can use some help over here, folks:
[Link: digg.com...]
The thread is lousy with ranting, raving stalkers and impersonators. They've been at this all night.
| 182 |
lawhawk Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:20:24am |
re: #172 Killgore Trout
China is pretty dependent on US as a trading partner at this point. They might be susceptible to pressure. I'm wondering about the possibility of a military solution. If we provided the air power could the south Korean army do the leg work? Norks are using Soviet era technology, we could wrap this thing up for good in a week or two. I don't think there's much chance of an Iraq style insurgency campaign once the military work is done.
It doesn't matter if it's Soviet era or not - the massing of NK artillery could bring a whole lot of pain to South Korea's commercial and industrial heartland - to say nothing of the area ringing Seoul before it is ultimately silenced. The Chinese might be amenable to a regime change in NK if they can get guarantees that the refugees wont flow in their direction and they get a hand in the rebuilding and restoration of the peninsula. The problem is that the NK aren't going to take that lying down either and the South doesn't exactly trust China either.
| 183 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:21:38am |
Rick Moran is held in contempt by the rest of the right wing blogosphere, and he's a first class jerk himself. And Pajamas Media is dedicated to promoting AGW denial.
Sorry, no credit from me for this half-assed attempt to appear rational.
| 184 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:21:39am |
re: #181 Charles
The good guys can use some help over here, folks:
[Link: digg.com...]
The thread is lousy with ranting, raving stalkers and impersonators. They've been at this all night.
Well, if you have Possum being Owl and Dolphin killer he gets three dings to "triple" his count.
| 185 |
lostlakehiker Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:23:09am |
re: #151 LudwigVanQuixote
Why can't right wingers read?
Seriously, why can't they read?
Their own links rarely say what they think they say - after having fixated on one word or phrase out of context, they miss the rest of whatever it is that says the opposite. This is true in terms of history, science, news etc...
Why can't they read posts?
Something is said clearly and it is right there in front of them and explained three times. Still, they can not read.
Why can they not even read their own stuff as they contradict themselves on the very same threads claiming the opposite of what they had claimed before?
How do people that dumb use a computer in the first place?
See my post 179.
As to millions of wind farms, I think it's not an exaggeration to say that IF we somehow built millions of wind farms, that could well affect wind patterns. Consider: 5 million wind farms, 200 towers each, blades orbit reaching 300 meters above ground/sea. That's 10^10 towers. The earth has a surface area on the order of (3000 miles=radius) 4 Pi r^2 which works out to somewhere around 10^7 square miles. That's 100 towers per square mile, everywhere on earth. The lower atmosphere is only about 6000 meters deep, to pick up the first half of it. You're putting a lot of damping into the first 300 meters. Everywhere. Land and sea, pole to pole.
| 186 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:23:52am |
re: #174 researchok
That is an excellent post. You haven't gotten to the willful blindness of the individual that actually prevents processing written words in front of their faces, even if they are their own words.
| 187 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:24:13am |
re: #182 lawhawk
Good points. I think it would also be very tough politically speaking for Obama to make that happen. Dems aren't feeling very hawkish these days and Republicans will oppose everything anyways.
| 188 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:29:06am |
re: #185 lostlakehiker
Consider: 5 million wind farms, 200 towers each, blades orbit reaching 300 meters above ground/sea. That's 10^10 towers.
I am very sorry there buddy. I just don't follow you at all. Windmills are not 300 meters tall in general. That's like a 90 story building! Also, no one is talking about building 10 billion of them (10^10).
You are correct that if we built 200 more NY skyline like sites around the world it would have some effect on local weather.
| 189 |
SpaceJesus Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:33:31am |
re: #51 Rightwingconspirator
I never said it wasn't. Fact is, his company provided nuclear technology to North Korea which everyone knows you can convert into possible weapons.
| 190 |
Obdicut Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:33:41am |
re: #179 lostlakehiker
That article is anything but reasonable or sane.
But is this really no contest? Those “carefully calibrated models” have yet to come close to predicting accurate temperature or CO2 levels in the atmosphere. Tree ring and ice core data have been challenged. The entire scientific basis for rising temperatures — the raw data gathered from weather stations around the world giving a temperature record of the last 150 years — is continuing to come under fire as a result of the email dump from the East Anglia labs last year. The scientists in question — Drs. Mann and Jones — are either unwilling or unable to produce their raw data, thus making it impossible for others to reproduce their results.
The entire above paragraph is simply lies.
| 191 |
Gus Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:34:42am |
re: #181 Charles
The good guys can use some help over here, folks:
[Link: digg.com...]
The thread is lousy with ranting, raving stalkers and impersonators. They've been at this all night.
I tried rallying the troops yesterday but apparently only a few folks responded. I'm pretty disappointed in the response especially now that I see that nut Chenzen has the highest Dugg comments and Reine's comments are buried.
| 192 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:35:10am |
re: #191 Gus 802
I tried rallying the troops yesterday but apparently only a few folks responded. I'm pretty disappointed in the response especially now that I see that nut Chenzen has the highest Dugg comments and Reine's comments are buried.
Hey I did all I could.
| 193 |
Obdicut Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:35:41am |
re: #191 Gus 802
I'm in there as SanityChecked.
I don't like Digg, though. It's really annoying to use.
| 194 |
Gus Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:36:19am |
re: #192 LudwigVanQuixote
Hey I did all I could.
I know. I saw that. Thanks. I've been working in background and just digging up or down appropriately.
| 195 |
lostlakehiker Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:37:46am |
re: #172 Killgore Trout
China is pretty dependent on US as a trading partner at this point. They might be susceptible to pressure. I'm wondering about the possibility of a military solution. If we provided the air power could the south Korean army do the leg work? Norks are using Soviet era technology, we could wrap this thing up for good in a week or two. I don't think there's much chance of an Iraq style insurgency campaign once the military work is done.
There is no military "solution." The U.S. and S.K. militaries can make a mess of NK. They can make a mess of the NK army. They can stop any NK invasion of SK. Somewhere along the peninsula. Whether they can stop it short of Seoul? Maybe more to the point, how quickly can they stop a bombardment of Seoul? And then there's the North's nuclear arsenal. Granting them perhaps half a dozen Hiroshima type devices, can we really be sure that our interceptors can stop a very short range ballistic missile attack on Seoul, with several decoy shots accompanied by several real bombs?
Any war would be enormously destructive. Hundreds of thousands of SK civilians would die, along with tens of thousands of SK soldiers, and thousands of US soldiers. [That's the optimistic scenario, the one where things go according to our projections.] The expense of the fighting, and the destruction of infrastructure, would go into the trillions.
That's not counting the damage to NK in death and privation, the chaos that would sow, and the damage to relations with China.
And even then, the downside has not been fully plumbed. Can we be sure the war will not spread? Can we be sure it will not sow the seeds of yet another war down the road? What if a missile got through to Japan?
Let's not cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war. If NK is determined on war, no matter the hazards, then war there will be. That's bad enough. While there remains a chance that they will draw back from the brink, we should demonstrate restraint as well as resolve.
| 196 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:38:22am |
re: #181 Charles
The good guys can use some help over here, folks:
[Link: digg.com...]
The thread is lousy with ranting, raving stalkers and impersonators. They've been at this all night.
I went, I read, I digged.
| 197 |
Gus Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:39:26am |
re: #193 Obdicut
I'm in there as SanityChecked.
I don't like Digg, though. It's really annoying to use.
Was that you? Yeah, I haven't been to Digg in years. It's a little weird.
Right now that douche bag Chenzhen has +24 and -15.
| 198 |
JeffFX Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:41:10am |
re: #191 Gus 802
I tried rallying the troops yesterday but apparently only a few folks responded. I'm pretty disappointed in the response especially now that I see that nut Chenzen has the highest Dugg comments and Reine's comments are buried.
It's ridiculously easy to create socks at Digg. Don't take Digg/Bury counts seriously when any group of sockpuppeting crazies is present. Scratch that, don't take Digg/Bury counts seriously ever.
Besides, the stalkers covered themselves in their own shit over there, and it's stored forever for all the world to see. The text matters, not the Diggs.
| 199 |
JeffFX Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:41:23am |
| 200 |
b_sharp Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:42:38am |
re: #17 RadicalModerate
A second South Korean soldier has died, it appears.
Also, 17 soldiers and three civilians are injured.[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]
Oh, and the idiots over at FR are already blaming Obama for this.
The idiots over at FR are, well, idiots.
I think they know that and are too idiotic to not revel in the fact.
| 201 |
Obdicut Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:42:51am |
re: #197 Gus 802
Well, Digg seems completely vulnerable to fake users spamming digs, and I think I was accidentally able to dig something multiple times.
| 202 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:43:17am |
| 203 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:43:53am |
re: #201 Obdicut
Well, Digg seems completely vulnerable to fake users spamming digs, and I think I was accidentally able to dig something multiple times.
Of course it is. That is all it is.
| 204 |
b_sharp Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:44:08am |
re: #21 freetoken
Those idiots would blame Obama if they got stung by a mosquito.
They would blame Obama if they pissed into the wind and came out smelling of urine.
| 206 |
lostlakehiker Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:47:27am |
re: #190 Obdicut
That article is anything but reasonable or sane.
The entire above paragraph is simply lies.
Indeed that paragraph sucks. The article as a whole, though, is an improvement on the outright denialism that is the default mode in much of Republican circles.
Readers who move from "there's no problem" to accepting everything, the true and the false, put forward in this article, have made progress of a sort in their understanding.
On the left, there is this belief that every human problem has a State solution, one involving higher taxes and a lot more regulation. If that's the only approach the Left will consider, and if the Right has the muscle to block that one approach, then we're at an impasse.
Time is short. We should be looking for ways to get the ball rolling with a response to AGW. If that means directly taxing CO2 emissions, rather than "cap and trade" with all its possibilities for channeling money to friends of friends, so be it. If it means using the revenues from that tax to fund rebates to utility customers based on what the typical customer needs, so be it. [Those who managed to use less would come out ahead. The incentive to economize would be intact.] If it means scrapping environmental impact study requirements before building the next nuclear plant on the same design as the others, so be it.
We must act, and we cannot very well do it without some sort of cooperation from the RW. Grudging acceptance of the reality of the problem, on their side, would be a welcome development. This article is a step in that direction, for all its faults.
| 207 |
lostlakehiker Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:49:52am |
re: #31 Jadespring
I'm supposed to come up with some goals and think about the reasons I'm gyming it. So far I've got... I need to exercise more because I really, really like food. Eating good food like butter and fat and sugar and everything else yummy is just non-negotiable and exercising more means I can eat more.
I'm not sure if this reason will go over very well. :)
Exercise is good for you even if you don't lose any weight. But in my experience, turning up the exercise turns up the appetite by less than enough to keep all the extra pounds.
| 208 |
Obdicut Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:53:44am |
re: #206 lostlakehiker
Indeed that paragraph sucks. The article as a whole, though, is an improvement on the outright denialism that is the default mode in much of Republican circles.
I don't think it is, at all. Read it again: it's to climate denial as intelligent design is to creationism. it's the same thing, dressed up in fancier clothes and not appearing as crude and brutish.
There is a clear and compelling difference between climate deniers and climate skeptics. Deniers see men in black where skeptics see the very human problem of faulty reasoning based on faulty data. Many skeptics fully accept the fact that the earth is indeed warming and that to one degree or another man is responsible. The issue for skeptics is the draconian measures recommended by climate change advocates to address the problem, not so much the science behind it.
Even in this paragraph, for example, he vacillates between defining 'skeptic's as people who think the reasoning and data behind AGW are faulty, or people who simply want to talk about the measures to address it.
In the end, the article is yet another attack on science and scientists, in support of Bjorn Lomberg's unscientific money-grab on the subject.
What do you see that's in any way good about it? That it bends to acknowledge that just maybe, maybe AGW is real?
You apparently were taken in by the 'it's no contest, really' sentence, and for some reason ignored the entire paragraph saying that, after all, it is a contest.
| 209 |
lostlakehiker Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:54:08am |
re: #188 LudwigVanQuixote
I am very sorry there buddy. I just don't follow you at all. Windmills are not 300 meters tall in general. That's like a 90 story building! Also, no one is talking about building 10 billion of them (10^10).
You are correct that if we built 200 more NY skyline like sites around the world it would have some effect on local weather.
Modern wind turbines have blades well over 100 meters long. With ground clearance, that puts the tips up near 300.
I didn't say we actually COULD build millions of wind farms. We can't. A proper wind farm is big, with a couple hundred or more towers, each well over 100 meters tall, each costing a LOT.
My point, in the original post, was that it would take that kind of over the top construction project to actually impact wind patterns.
| 210 |
Obdicut Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:56:45am |
re: #209 lostlakehiker
Modern wind turbines have blades well over 100 meters long. With ground clearance, that puts the tips up near 300.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
The tallest wind turbine is Fuhrländer Wind Turbine Laasow. Its axis is 160 meters above ground and its rotor tips can reach a height of 205 meters. It is the only wind turbine taller than 200 meters in the world.[27]
Ten seconds of research.
| 211 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:57:02am |
re: #209 lostlakehiker
Really? 100 meter long blades? That is a soccer field.
| 212 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:57:23am |
re: #188 LudwigVanQuixote
I am very sorry there buddy. I just don't follow you at all. Windmills are not 300 meters tall in general. That's like a 90 story building! Also, no one is talking about building 10 billion of them (10^10).
You are correct that if we built 200 more NY skyline like sites around the world it would have some effect on local weather.
Regards blade length...
"Large scale wind turbines (also know as utility wind turbines) are normally tied directly into the utility grid and are used to provide electrical power for entire communities and municipalities. Each of these large, "utility-scale," wind turbines can have blade lengths up to 150ft and sit on a 200ft tower, and produce enough electricity for 500-600 average homes per year."
[Link: www.wind.appstate.edu...]
| 213 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:57:40am |
re: #210 Obdicut
And most built are not that large.
| 214 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:58:33am |
re: #212 Walter L. Newton
Cool so long as you are pointing out that a foot is less than a third of a meter.
| 215 |
Obdicut Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:58:54am |
re: #213 LudwigVanQuixote
Yep. The largest proposed prototype has a 145 m blade diameter-- so each blade would be about 72.5 meters apiece.
| 216 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Nov 23, 2010 9:59:30am |
re: #208 Obdicut
I don't think it is, at all. Read it again: it's to climate denial as intelligent design is to creationism. it's the same thing, dressed up in fancier clothes and not appearing as crude and brutish.
Even in this paragraph, for example, he vacillates between defining 'skeptic's as people who think the reasoning and data behind AGW are faulty, or people who simply want to talk about the measures to address it.
In the end, the article is yet another attack on science and scientists, in support of Bjorn Lomberg's unscientific money-grab on the subject.
What do you see that's in any way good about it? That it bends to acknowledge that just maybe, maybe AGW is real?
You apparently were taken in by the 'it's no contest, really' sentence, and for some reason ignored the entire paragraph saying that, after all, it is a contest.
You really just said it all about that article.
| 217 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Nov 23, 2010 10:00:15am |
re: #214 LudwigVanQuixote
Cool so long as you are pointing out that a foot is less than a third of a meter.
I wasn't pointing out anything in regards to Lost's statement... I was simply adding to the stats on tower height and blade lengths. I'm well are of the length of a foot and a meter.
| 218 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Nov 23, 2010 10:04:59am |
re: #206 lostlakehiker
Indeed that paragraph sucks. The article as a whole, though, is an improvement on the outright denialism that is the default mode in much of Republican circles.
Readers who move from "there's no problem" to accepting everything, the true and the false, put forward in this article, have made progress of a sort in their understanding.
On the left, there is this belief that every human problem has a State solution, one involving higher taxes and a lot more regulation. If that's the only approach the Left will consider, and if the Right has the muscle to block that one approach, then we're at an impasse.
Time is short. We should be looking for ways to get the ball rolling with a response to AGW. If that means directly taxing CO2 emissions, rather than "cap and trade" with all its possibilities for channeling money to friends of friends, so be it. If it means using the revenues from that tax to fund rebates to utility customers based on what the typical customer needs, so be it. [Those who managed to use less would come out ahead. The incentive to economize would be intact.] If it means scrapping environmental impact study requirements before building the next nuclear plant on the same design as the others, so be it.
We must act, and we cannot very well do it without some sort of cooperation from the RW. Grudging acceptance of the reality of the problem, on their side, would be a welcome development. This article is a step in that direction, for all its faults.
"On the left, there is this belief that every human problem has a State solution, one involving higher taxes and a lot more regulation. "
Nice big brush you're painting with there pal.
I'm on the left and I don't believe that there is a state/governmental solution for the issue of Marijuana besides leaving it the f*** alone and stop arresting people for consuming a drug less dangerous than alcohol and tobacco.
| 219 |
lostlakehiker Tue, Nov 23, 2010 10:05:35am |
re: #208 Obdicut
I don't think it is, at all. Read it again: it's to climate denial as intelligent design is to creationism. it's the same thing, dressed up in fancier clothes and not appearing as crude and brutish.
Even in this paragraph, for example, he vacillates between defining 'skeptic's as people who think the reasoning and data behind AGW are faulty, or people who simply want to talk about the measures to address it.
In the end, the article is yet another attack on science and scientists, in support of Bjorn Lomberg's unscientific money-grab on the subject.
What do you see that's in any way good about it? That it bends to acknowledge that just maybe, maybe AGW is real?
You apparently were taken in by the 'it's no contest, really' sentence, and for some reason ignored the entire paragraph saying that, after all, it is a contest.
The lead paragraph is something beyond retraction. The author wants to get out of an argument that his side cannot possibly win. He wants to argue instead about how we should go about mitigation, and whether adaptation might be cheaper, and about just how bad it would be anyway.
He wants to save face, and save street cred with his audience.
As to how bad things could get, we don't actually know. He's right about that. But what he elides is that we know a range. (The answer could be anywhere from really grim, to utterly catastrophic.)
As to how we go about mitigation, there really is a lot of work to be done. The current approach of meeting every ten years to try and negotiate a climate treaty isn't working. The signatories to Kyoto, almost without exception, defaulted on their promises. The non-signatories included the U.S. and China. The Copenhagen negotiations also failed. Another half dozen such failures and we are cooked.
Must we just go on trying the same thing every time, expecting a different result? Or maybe the Left can have a Nixon to China moment, and try for a response that severs the social reform side of the agenda from the directly technical business of switching from fossil fuels to renewable? Maybe the right can read articles like this for starters, and at LEAST grant that the problem is real? That science isn't just a wall to wall pack of lies? That it might be smart to do something while time remains?
| 220 |
lostlakehiker Tue, Nov 23, 2010 10:07:35am |
re: #211 LudwigVanQuixote
Really? 100 meter long blades? That is a soccer field.
Yes, really. Big bladesThe materials science problems are formidable. They're looking at things such as radar detection of incoming gusts, so as to be able to feather the blades a bit and duck the buffeting.
| 221 |
Obdicut Tue, Nov 23, 2010 10:09:04am |
re: #219 lostlakehiker
The lead paragraph is something beyond retraction. The author wants to get out of an argument that his side cannot possibly win. He wants to argue instead about how we should go about mitigation, and whether adaptation might be cheaper, and about just how bad it would be anyway.
What article are you reading? it isn't this one.
Maybe the right can read articles like this for starters, and at LEAST grant that the problem is real?
This article doesn't grant that the problem is real.
Your quote from the article cut off at exactly the point where the author began to make denier claims.
He further concluded:
Why this violation of a fundamental tenet of the scientific process has not resulted in a mass movement by scientists toward a more skeptical approach to climate claims says more about the politicized nature of government-funded science today than it does the efficacy of science itself.
Why did you cut off your quote right at the point where the author reversed himself and said that it was, actually, a contest, and began to attack the scientists?
| 222 |
Obdicut Tue, Nov 23, 2010 10:09:45am |
re: #220 lostlakehiker
Please cite an actual wind turbine that is as tall as you've claimed or has a blade as long as you've claimed.
| 223 |
b_sharp Tue, Nov 23, 2010 10:15:09am |
re: #165 LudwigVanQuixote
Ohh I was talking about right wingers as in wingnuts. Are you a wingnut? Did you read that correctly?
You said right wingers, not wingnuts. Although most of us here know you well enough to make the assumption you meant wingnuts, infrequent visitors will take you at face value.
Wingnuts are primarily authoritarian and have a hierarchy of trusted authorities. If an authority puts out information that on first blush looks like it agrees with their higher level authorities they will use that information, even if a deeper understanding of the information shows it contradicts what they have been told.
This is also why quotes are used so frequently and are considered ultimately convincing.
| 224 |
lostlakehiker Tue, Nov 23, 2010 10:46:14am |
re: #222 Obdicut
Please cite an actual wind turbine that is as tall as you've claimed or has a blade as long as you've claimed.
This "liar liar" charge is getting old.
Additional trucks will be delivering the Siemens wind turbine, the cranes, and other installation equipment in August and September. The Siemens turbine will use a second tower of the same height, but its rotor diameter is 331 feet
Diameter 331 feet
And there's bigger in the works.
| 225 |
Obdicut Tue, Nov 23, 2010 10:55:18am |
re: #224 lostlakehiker
So your original claim:
Modern wind turbines have blades well over 100 meters long. With ground clearance, that puts the tips up near 300.
Is now: "one prototype wind turbine has a total diameter nearly exactly 100 meters long. This means individual blades are about fifty meters long"
Why did you claim I made the charge of 'liar, liar'? I pointed out you were mistaken, and how easily you could have found out the actual state of modern wind turbines.
You're still wrong, by the way, and the page you're citing shows that. For the Seiman's wind turbine,
Total ground to tip = 130.5 meters
Radius – 50.5m (165.7 feet)
So your original claim is shown to be wrong by the actual source that you're citing, even if we treated this prototype as though it was the definition of 'modern wind turbine'
Do you understand?
| 226 |
_RememberTonyC Tue, Nov 23, 2010 11:04:48am |
North Korea is china's puppet and client. China is using the norks to test the limits of our patience and they're sizing up Obama as part of the exercise. And lest anyone think I am "blaming" the POTUS in any way, this action by china and the norks is nothing new. china used north Korea in exactly the same way when Bush was POTUS.
| 227 |
researchok Tue, Nov 23, 2010 11:26:23am |
re: #186 LudwigVanQuixote
That is an excellent post. You haven't gotten to the willful blindness of the individual that actually prevents processing written words in front of their faces, even if they are their own words.
Yes, willful blindness is another issue entirely.
That political leaders have a narrative is to be expected. As to why people allow themselves to be blinded is another matter entirely. That has to do with intellectual cowardice.
People are only too willing to follow blindly because it absolves them of the responsibility of having to think for themselves. This has many ramifications. Let me explain.
Suppose one of the principles of physics were turned on it's head. Now, you've been teaching this principle for a very long time. You have two choices: Firstly, you can say the new science is wrong notwithstanding the very evidence it is not. Or, you can say, 'Well, we've advanced- now we have a better understanding.
Stripping away the outliers, of course as a scientist you would take the latter position.
Political ideologues embrace the first position, rewriting history if they have to. Why? Because to admit they were wrong is to admit the very ideas they held dear were wrong. They would have to admit everything their past beliefs were wrong.
Science is much more forgiving of correction- there are no emotional attachments. Right is right, wrong is wrong. If I said, LVQ, you are mistaken about black holes and light and time and here is the evidence. you'd say'No kidding! Are you sure?' We'd have a bit of a back and forth and after a while you'd say, 'Yup, I got it. Damn!
If a hard righty or lefty were to be upset by reality they would have to concede everything they believed in was wrong. Their entire value system would be negated. Is that true? Not really, but political ideologues have concocted a surrealityand narrative where your entire moral and ethical identity are tied up in your political beliefs and party affiliation. That is absurd. There was a time not too long ago when votes were earned and not awarded on a partisan basis.
This nation was founded out of smorgasbord of ideas. The Founding Fathers thrashed out a Constitution predicated on the idea they were doing what was best for the nation and not on what was best for their own interests.
We've come a long way, sad to say.
| 228 |
lostlakehiker Tue, Nov 23, 2010 11:38:53am |
re: #210 Obdicut
I'm sorry, but you're wrong.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Ten seconds of research.
My mistake. I remembered as radius, what was in fact diameter. Sorry.
| 229 |
Obdicut Tue, Nov 23, 2010 11:46:14am |
re: #228 lostlakehiker
Thank you for admitting you were wrong.
However, you are still citing a single prototype wind turbine as though it is representative of modern wind turbines, which it is not. You also claimed that their lengths were 'well over' 100 meters, whereas the diameter of the one you cited is just barely 100 meters. In addition, adding another 50 meters to the height of the turbine wouldn't make the tip above 300 meters.
And you also haven't answered why you chose to cut off the article you cited right before the author began to attack scientists and engage in denial. You gave a completely opposite impression of where the article was going by doing so.
| 230 |
b_sharp Tue, Nov 23, 2010 12:25:13pm |
re: #229 Obdicut
Thank you for admitting you were wrong.
However, you are still citing a single prototype wind turbine as though it is representative of modern wind turbines, which it is not. You also claimed that their lengths were 'well over' 100 meters, whereas the diameter of the one you cited is just barely 100 meters. In addition, adding another 50 meters to the height of the turbine wouldn't make the tip above 300 meters.
And you also haven't answered why you chose to cut off the article you cited right before the author began to attack scientists and engage in denial. You gave a completely opposite impression of where the article was going by doing so.
Obdi, it may be time to give it a rest, there are more important issues than size to direct your intellect toward. It is important that the RW starts seeing reality for what it is rather than what they want it to be. If this comes in spurts and spats like the article linked, then we should acknowledge where they are correct as well as correct where they are wrong.
That article is poorly written and disjointed but it does admit that the problem is real and immediate. The author has problems of comprehension when it comes to the scientific process and the links between zealous advocates and scientists, and, yes, that should be pointed out in no uncertain terms, and his reliance on Lomborg is highly questionable, even though Lomborg is becoming less of a denialist in his ideas, but he strays a fair distance from normal RW talking points by admitting more than once that AGW is a fact and it needs to be addressed.
I don't hear that coming from people like Watts, McIntyre, McKitrick, or Marohasy or any of the other high profile denialists.
I don't think there is anything nefarious in LLH's posting of a link to the article.
| 231 |
Obdicut Tue, Nov 23, 2010 12:31:54pm |
re: #230 b_sharp
Obdi, it may be time to give it a rest, there are more important issues than size to direct your intellect toward. It is important that the RW starts seeing reality for what it is rather than what they want it to be. If this comes in spurts and spats like the article linked, then we should acknowledge where they are correct as well as correct where they are wrong.
The article contained nothing right.
That article is poorly written and disjointed but it does admit that the problem is real and immediate.
No, it doesn't. It takes that position and then repudiates it.
I don't think there is anything nefarious in LLH's posting of a link to the article.
I don't either.
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