Experts Believe N. Korea Had Outside Help for Nuke Site

WorldNovember 2010 • Views: 21,609

Is China playing a double game with North Korea, publicly deploring the North’s nuclear weapons program but secretly helping them build it?

A U.S.-based think-tank, the Institute for Science and International Security (ISIS), had said in a report last month that North Korea had used China either directly or indirectly, as a transshipment point, to procure items for enrichment.

“Most believe that China views North Korea’s nuclear weapons programme as destabilizing to the region,” the report said. “Nonetheless, China is not applying enough resources to detect and stop North Korea’s illicit nuclear trade.”

ISIS stressed there was no evidence that Beijing was “secretly approving or willfully ignoring exports” to its neighbour to strengthen the North’s nuclear weapons programme.

Mark Fitzpatrick, proliferation expert at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London, said he believed Chinese private firms and individuals, rather than state authorities, may have assisted Pyongyang.

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170 comments

DaddyG Tue, Nov 23, 2010 12:48:46pm

Credit where credit is due. The last two American Presidential administrations gave ‘em the technology.

Okami Tue, Nov 23, 2010 12:55:12pm

Is China playing a double game with North Korea, publicly deploring the North’s nuclear weapons program but secretly helping them build it?

I think your question is answered here.

ISIS stressed there was no evidence that Beijing was “secretly approving or willfully ignoring exports” to its neighbour to strengthen the North’s nuclear weapons programme.

The report says someone in China is doing this, not China itself, just to be clear.

Sol Berdinowitz Tue, Nov 23, 2010 12:56:30pm

You mean China, a nation of over 1 billion people, is not a lockstep monolith?

I am shocked, and stunned.

Charles Johnson Tue, Nov 23, 2010 12:57:03pm

re: #2 Okami

Sure, if you believe that’s all there is to it. I’m pretty skeptical that this could be going on totally without China’s knowledge.

Kragar Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:00:38pm

Well, I sure am glad supplying weapons to an unstable, paranoid group has never backfired on the provider at any point in human history.

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:00:54pm

Sorry to go OT immediately, but damn:

TSA gets attacked from the far left, too.

Moonbats and wingnuts converge in a powerdive on TSA employees.

Killgore Trout Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:01:19pm

Jewish bankers!
/wingnut

darthstar Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:02:07pm

re: #6 Obdicut

Sorry to go OT immediately, but damn:

TSA gets attacked from the far left, too.

Moonbats and wingnuts converge in a powerdive on TSA employees.

Extremists are extremists.

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:02:28pm

re: #2 Okami

Define ‘China’.

I seriously doubt in a totalitarian state like China that private individuals would be allowed to engage in such behavior without at least the tacit approval of the regime.

darthstar Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:02:44pm

If North Korea had oil reserves, this would be a bigger issue.

Bubblehead II Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:03:27pm

re: #4 Charles

Sure, if you believe that’s all there is to it. I’m pretty skeptical that this could be going on totally without China’s knowledge.

I am sure there are those in the Chinese Government who are being paid to turn a blind eye to any shipment of nuclear materials to NK, but as the quote said, there is no evidence to support the idea that this is the official policy of the Chinese Government.

Killgore Trout Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:04:50pm

re: #6 Obdicut

Dkos and huffpoo have been very vocally opposed to the TSA too. I suppose it’s residual from the opposition to Bush’s 9-11 response. The fring on both sides are opposed. They key difference is that Republican leadership is joining their extremist fringe in opposing airport security. Democrats are not.

Fozzie Bear Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:07:55pm

I think it’s certainly possible for private firms in China to make this kind of mischief without the government (China’s) knowledge. China is a freaking huge country, and the government is far less intrusive and restrictive now than it has been in the past.

Killgore Trout Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:08:00pm

Allahpundit adopts the stupidest talking point I’ve seen so far today….

Most O critics worry that he’s too weak to risk a confrontation, but I wonder if the bigger worry isn’t that it’s precisely because he’s perceived as weak — and not just by North Korea — that he’ll feel obliged to overcompensate with his response, which could touch off something very bad.

Killgore Trout Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:09:38pm

re: #13 Fozzie Bear

I think it’s certainly possible for private firms in China to make this kind of mischief without the government (China’s) knowledge. China is a freaking huge country, and the government is far less intrusive and restrictive now than it has been in the past.

It’s also a very corrupt country. Well connected government contractors can get away with whatever they want.

sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:10:18pm

China has been using North Korea as a stick in the wests eye for decades. China could stop this in a nano-second if it wanted too or if NoK. became a nusance to China itself.

China has always had the plausible deniability of “it’s not us,. it’s THEM, and we try to put pressure on them to stop!”

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:11:06pm

re: #14 Killgore Trout

Well, they’ve got their bases covered. No matter what Obama does, they’ll say it’s wrong as hell.

Sol Berdinowitz Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:11:08pm

re: #9 Obdicut

Define ‘China’.

I seriously doubt in a totalitarian state like China that private individuals would be allowed to engage in such behavior without at least the tacit approval of the regime.

Yes and no. Not “private individuals” but factions within the state, which despite its monolithic image, is certainly just as fraught with power struggles as any other government in the world.

recusancy Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:11:47pm

re: #15 Killgore Trout

It’s also a very corrupt country. Well connected government contractors can get away with whatever they want.

Is that America or China you’re talking about?

Charles Johnson Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:12:22pm

re: #11 Bubblehead II

Thats what one expert says, yes - but notice the way he phrased it. “No evidence” that Beijing is secretly approving or willfully ignoring nuclear exports. That doesn’t mean they are not doing it - it just means there’s no evidence for it.

Exporting equipment to build uranium enrichment facilities is not like exporting bags of rice. It’s tightly controlled and regulated, even in China. Again, I seriously doubt it could be getting to North Korea without some level of Chinese government awareness.

China is quite capable of playing with several decks of cards at once.

Sol Berdinowitz Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:12:37pm

re: #19 recusancy

Is that America or China you’re talking about?

Any country you like, it is all a matter of degree and emphasis…

Bubblehead II Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:12:59pm

re: #15 Killgore Trout

It’s also a very corrupt country. Well connected government contractors can get away with whatever they want.

Direct from the Chinese Government in March of 2009

China admits corruption still serious problem in some areas

*snip*

“A total of 4,960 Chinese officials above the county level were punished for corruption in a year ending November 2008, according to the latest data from the Central Commission for Discipline Inspection of the Communist Party of China.”

AlexRogan Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:13:49pm

re: #14 Killgore Trout

Allahpundit adopts the stupidest talking point I’ve seen so far today…

So, AP is saying that President Obama is going to do what the left accused President Bush of doing, which is acting like a cowboy?

Okami Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:14:27pm

re: #4 Charles

Sure, if you believe that’s all there is to it. I’m pretty skeptical that this could be going on totally without China’s knowledge.

Well, I’m just reading the report, and it says there’s no evidence China’s willfully allowing this to happen. Emphatically, in fact.

Charles Johnson Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:14:40pm

I don’t have any evidence for the idea that the Chinese government is involved, of course. Just a healthy level of cynicism about Chinese political gamesmanship.

DaddyG Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:15:35pm

re: #8 darthstar

Extremists are extremists.

Wraparound!

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:18:16pm

re: #14 Killgore Trout

Allahpundit adopts the stupidest talking point I’ve seen so far today…

World War Eleventy!!!

Bubblehead II Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:20:38pm

re: #20 Charles

Agreed, but the Chinese Government is even more corrupt than our own. So it could be argued that while the aid wasn’t/isn’t officially approved at the highest level, officials at those levels could have been bribed to turn a blind eye to these transfers.

Gus Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:20:56pm

re: #12 Killgore Trout

Dkos and huffpoo have been very vocally opposed to the TSA too. I suppose it’s residual from the opposition to Bush’s 9-11 response. The fring on both sides are opposed. They key difference is that Republican leadership is joining their extremist fringe in opposing airport security. Democrats are not.

The ~~Huffington~~ Homeopathy Post. Are they worried about radiation exposure yet?

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:22:01pm

re: #28 Bubblehead II

There comes a point where corruption becomes complicity. If you don’t actually care about stopping something enough to attack the corruption enabling it, you’re complicit in it.

Gus Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:23:22pm

re: #14 Killgore Trout

Allahpundit adopts the stupidest talking point I’ve seen so far today…

Damn. That’s one deeply thought out military/political analysis from Allahpundit. We should call him Rain Man from now one. “It’s going to be bad. Very bad.”

Charles Johnson Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:23:28pm

re: #28 Bubblehead II

Agreed, but the Chinese Government is even more corrupt than our own. So it could be argued that while the aid wasn’t/isn’t officially approved at the highest level, officials at those levels could have been bribed to turn a blind eye to these transfers.

There’s probably no easy way to distinguish what’s official policy and what isn’t. That’s my point.

I see the statement from ISIS that there’s no evidence more as a diplomatic reassurance that they’re not accusing China of anything.

DaddyG Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:23:50pm

If China could only develop a cadmium reactor they’d be in business. /

engineer cat Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:24:20pm

re: #12 Killgore Trout

Dkos and huffpoo have been very vocally opposed to the TSA too. I suppose it’s residual from the opposition to Bush’s 9-11 response. The fring on both sides are opposed. They key difference is that Republican leadership is joining their extremist fringe in opposing airport security. Democrats are not.

“you can read my email but don’t you dare look at my underpants!”

researchok Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:24:41pm

The bottom line:

No one wants to see NK fail. The south cannot handle what would be a huge population influx and China cannot tolerate or handle any northward migration of millions of NK’s.

The NK’s have lots of room to push.

For now.

albusteve Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:24:57pm

re: #15 Killgore Trout

It’s also a very corrupt country. Well connected government contractors can get away with whatever they want.

hence the high number of schools that turned to rubble in the last round of deadly quakes

sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:25:00pm

re: #24 Okami

Well, I’m just reading the report, and it says there’s no evidence China’s willfully allowing this to happen. Emphatically, in fact.

Couple of things

1) Lack of evidence does not mean it’s not happening (ask any 1st year law of criminal justice student)
2)key word ,, WILLFULLY

sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:27:06pm

re: #32 Charles

There’s probably no easy way to distinguish what’s official policy and what isn’t. That’s my point.

I see the statement from ISIS that there’s no evidence more as a diplomatic reassurance that they’re not accusing China of anything.

ExactaMundo!

engineer cat Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:30:25pm

President Smiley McMormonpants Vows Troops Home From Korea Before Christmas

investigation of firebombing of korean methodist church bogs down

Okami Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:31:02pm

re: #37 sattv4u2

Couple of things

1) Lack of evidence does not mean it’s not happening (ask any 1st year law of criminal justice student)
2)key word ,, WILLFULLY

Yeah, I’m not saying the Chinese government isn’t supporting this, I’m saying there’s no evidence to base that on yet, and for now it’s just speculation. And it is quite possible that someone in China is paying off boarder guards to look the other way. But to me, this sounds like a much more local issue within China, rather than a national problem. All it takes is one successful smuggler in a nation of 1.2 billion.

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:31:26pm

The simple answer is yes. China has always nurtured the NK program from behind the curtain. It gives them a single shot regional nuclear club to use in their arsenal with plausible deniability.

I’ve also thought that it’s China that prods NK to test any newly elected president within their first month of taking office as well.

The good news? Some in China are beginning to see that if NK sends nukes anywhere, it’s going to be in China’s neighborhood, and the fallout’s going to land over there.

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:35:21pm

re: #40 Okami

It takes a lot more than that. It takes someone providing the nuclear stuff to get smuggled, for example.

lawhawk Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:35:58pm

Nothing would surprise me about North Korea receiving outside assistance in furtherance of its nuclear ambitions.

Possible players could be anyone on the old AQ Khan list - Pakistan or Iran or even Syria. Pooling resources and already being international pariahs has a way of combining interests and working towards common cause. It shouldn’t really be much of a surprise. After all, the Syrian nuclear facility that Israel blew up a few years ago was based largely on an NK design - showing that the two were sharing quite a bit of information.

Russia could be playing this game - to offset China’s growing ambitions in the region and to attempt to exert its own influence.

Still, the most likely possible outside help comes from China - seeing it as a way to both exert pressure on the NK regime and to further cement its relationship with the regime to keep it in place. It wouldn’t surprise me that the Chinese are playing games to keep the NK regime in place by assisting in the construction of nuclear facilities in contravention of the IAEA and existing sanction regimes.

It may be with some solace that the Iranian nuclear program has seen its share of setbacks, likely at the hands of Stuxnet, which has hobbled the Iranian enrichment program by throwing off the centrifuges’ calibrations. No one has stepped forward to take credit for that ingenius effort, but that kind of effort may need duplication with North Korea.

sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:36:42pm

re: #41 Thanos
The good news? Some in China are beginning to see that if NK sends nukes anywhere, it’s going to be in China’s neighborhood, and the fallout’s going to land over there.

Agreed up to that point (as stated in #16)

On that point, however, the Chinese leadership could give a rats ass about an NK nuke as long as it’s aimed at and landed in South Korea and/or Japan. You know ,,,,AWAY from China!

Varek Raith Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:37:36pm

“Oh what a tangled web we weave.”

_RememberTonyC Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:38:30pm

NK is totally dependent on china for everything. Kim Jong il can’t wipe his ass without beijing’s permission. Anything NK does militarily can only be done if china approves.

Varek Raith Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:39:03pm

re: #44 sattv4u2

The good news? Some in China are beginning to see that if NK sends nukes anywhere, it’s going to be in China’s neighborhood, and the fallout’s going to land over there.

Agreed up to that point (as stated in #16)

On that point, however, the Chinese leadership could give a rats ass about an NK nuke as long as it’s aimed at and landed in South Korea and/or Japan. You know ,,,AWAY from China!

Trust me.
The Chinese would most certainly care if the North did something stupid with a nuke.

sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:39:13pm

re: #40 Okami

All it takes is one successful smuggler in a nation of 1.2 billion.

1.199 billion of which are impotent to do something of this magnitude, leaving only a small amount of influence makers as probable culprits

Okami Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:39:18pm

re: #42 Obdicut

It takes a lot more than that. It takes someone providing the nuclear stuff to get smuggled, for example.

Yeah, there would be other people involved, but they wouldn’t necessarily have to be in China. They could be getting stuff from Russia or the Middle East, we won’t really know until we catch them.

I guess I just have trouble seeing China plotting to destabilize a bordering country.

Bubblehead II Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:40:06pm

re: #32 Charles

There’s probably no easy way to distinguish what’s official policy and what isn’t. That’s my point.

I see the statement from ISIS that there’s no evidence more as a diplomatic reassurance that they’re not accusing China of anything.

Gotcha.

BTW, here is some info from ISIS on those centrifuges.

Satellite Image Shows Building Containing Centrifuges in North Korea

sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:41:54pm

re: #49 Okami

Yeah, there would be other people involved, but they wouldn’t necessarily have to be in China. They could be getting stuff from Russia or the Middle East, we won’t really know until we catch them.

I guess I just have trouble seeing China plotting to destabilize a bordering country.

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:41:57pm

re: #44 sattv4u2

The biggest real problem is that you don’t have to actually launch a nuclear missile to have a reliable nuclear threat. That’s why they like NK being a nuke threat. For China the great game is still going on and Korea is just the Eastern edge…

engineer cat Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:43:12pm

re: #45 Varek Raith

“Oh what a tangled web we weave.”

when first we practice to be morons who believe our own propaganda

Varek Raith Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:43:37pm

re: #52 Thanos

The biggest real problem is that you don’t have to actually launch a nuclear missile to have a reliable nuclear threat. That’s why they like NK being a nuke threat. For China the great game is still going on and Korea is just the Eastern edge…

Yeah, but!
This game is foolish.
If the NK’s keep on going down this road, then Japan and possible SK may go nuclear.
Which China most certainly does not want.

Shiplord Kirel Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:44:07pm

re: #6 Obdicut

Sorry to go OT immediately, but damn:

TSA gets attacked from the far left, too.

Moonbats and wingnuts converge in a powerdive on TSA employees.

Between the Paulians, the Alex Jones-towners, the Birch-Beckers, and the fossil lefties, teh Crazy is reaching critical mass in this country.

sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:44:14pm

re: #49 Okami

Yeah, there would be other people involved, but they wouldn’t necessarily have to be in China. They could be getting stuff from Russia or the Middle East, we won’t really know until we catch them.

I guess I just have trouble seeing China plotting to destabilize a bordering country.

Russia (for the most part) gave up helping the Norks decades ago. Anything else they try to get has to come in via land by China or sea, and the waters to their east are closely scrutinized by Japan/ USA

Shiplord Kirel Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:45:51pm

re: #6 Obdicut

Sorry to go OT immediately, but damn:

TSA gets attacked from the far left, too.

Moonbats and wingnuts converge in a powerdive on TSA employees.

We have it from reliable sources, whom I cannot name, that TSA is secretly led by lizard people from the fourth dimension, acting through the federal reserve and the Bilderberger Group. Been wondering why Bigfoot sightings have declined? They were all rounded up, given a new haircut and put to work at TSA.

sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:46:24pm

re: #54 Varek Raith

Yeah, but!
This game is foolish.
If the NK’s keep on going down this road, then Japan and possible SK may go nuclear.
Which China most certainly does not want.

Neither has to as long as the US has subs and surface ships in the area, not to mention via air

Bubblehead II Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:47:58pm

From the ISIS link in my reply to Charles.

Hecker reports on a modern control room at the plant. ISIS learned that North Korean procurement entities obtained abroad modern computerized control equipment used to run a plant composed of centrifuge cascades. This equipment is dual-use, also used in the petrochemical industry, but it was the same as those acquired by Iran to run its centrifuges. ISIS did not learn who more recently supplied the plant with frequency converters or the subcomponents used by North Korea to make them domestically, but Iran and North Korea appear in some cases to use similar illicit procurement networks. It is possible that the North Korean plant(s) could be vulnerable to the Stuxnet worm.

Fozzie Bear Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:50:00pm

re: #41 Thanos

The simple answer is yes. China has always nurtured the NK program from behind the curtain. It gives them a single shot regional nuclear club to use in their arsenal with plausible deniability.

I’ve also thought that it’s China that prods NK to test any newly elected president within their first month of taking office as well.

The good news? Some in China are beginning to see that if NK sends nukes anywhere, it’s going to be in China’s neighborhood, and the fallout’s going to land over there.

Skepticism is one thing, but there just isn’t evidence to support this kind of assertion. For all we know, rogue agents from the US supplied them with the tech.

It is likely they got their tech from China, but it’s not logically sound to assume that NK is a proxy one-off nuke for China. I don’t think China thinks they can control NK, and, as such, it would be nuts for the Chinese government to knowingly give NK that kind of tech given the political instability of the country.

I think there is a much stronger argument to be made for this being the result of greed and corruption rather than some kind of diabolical Chinese plot.

sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:54:33pm

re: #57 Shiplord Kirel

We have it from reliable sources, whom I cannot name, that TSA is secretly led by lizard people from the fourth dimension, acting through the federal reserve and the Bilderberger Group. Been wondering why Bigfoot sightings have declined? They were all rounded up, given a new haircut and put to work at TSA.

No word from Nessie!

Shiplord Kirel Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:56:08pm

re: #61 sattv4u2

No word from Nessie!

Nessie is standing by and gathering forces if the Earthlings decide to revive ocean liners.

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:57:07pm

re: #60 Fozzie Bear

I’m not saying it’s a diabolical plot, you are. I’m saying China doesn’t mind current state, and China historically has controlled NK when they really want to. I think it’s more trades they make with a strategic ally rather than them controlling the regime outright like a puppet. Remember, if they pull that trigger strategic deniability has to be there regardless of how it works.

Shiplord Kirel Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:58:19pm

OT
You have got to see this! 7 year old Rhema Marvanne sings Amazing Grace.

Youtube Video

Amazing indeed. She looks like my granddaughter too.

Fozzie Bear Tue, Nov 23, 2010 1:59:26pm

The thing is, now that the nuclear pandora’s box has been opened, it can never, ever be closed. The frightening truth is that refining fissile materials isn’t really all that hard, and it is getting a lot easier as new technologies arise. It just isn’t a secret anymore how to make a nuke. The science is out there, much of the tech required has other uses, and ALL of it can be manufactured by any country with a moderately advanced economy and a fair amount of money to burn.

Humanity is doomed to deal with this until the day there is a one single mistake, and we will all die.

That’s just how it is. Sucks, but that’s that.

engineer cat Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:01:08pm

Experts Believe N. Korea Had Outside

i think the whole thing is just a random fluctuation in the stupidity plasma

Fozzie Bear Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:02:05pm

re: #63 Thanos

I’m not saying it’s a diabolical plot, you are. I’m saying China doesn’t mind current state, and China historically has controlled NK when they really want to. I think it’s more trades they make with a strategic ally rather than them controlling the regime outright like a puppet. Remember, if they pull that trigger strategic deniability has to be there regardless of how it works.

I just don’t see how China could possibly consider NK to be their trigger to pull. That’s the crux of where I take issue with that idea. Even if NK attacks someone in China’s stead, then there will be a nuclear exchange right up against China’s borders. I don’t see how China benefits, no matter how it plays out.

I think, as I said above, this is a result of a lack of control on China’s part, and not likely a deliberate move by China.

sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:02:22pm

re: #60 Fozzie Bear

I think there is a much stronger argument to be made for this being the result of greed and corruption rather than some kind of diabolical Chinese plot.

I believe (as it has been since the ‘50’s) that China benefits from having NoK as a destabilizer in the area to tie up US forces/ resources in the South as well as keeping Japan wary just to name a couple of reasons

freetoken Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:02:26pm

re: #65 Fozzie Bear

The frightening truth is that refining fissile materials isn’t really all that hard,

It’s still rather expensive, though, which is why the “rogue” states have to take so long to make such little progress.

sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:03:41pm

re: #67 Fozzie Bear

Even if NK attacks someone in China’s stead, then there will be a nuclear exchange right up against China’s border

You don’t really think the Chinese leadership gives a rats ass about it’s citizenery living on or near the Nok border, do you?

sattv4u2 Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:04:01pm

BBL

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:04:26pm

re: #65 Fozzie Bear

There is a way out. I hate to think of us as all doomed to nuclear death simply because you are right in that we can’t stop proliferation. However if we burn the fissionable substances for energy, they ain’t around for use in bombs. If energy & food is cheap, clean, and plentiful, then it’s more likely that madmen dictators won’t control vast swaths of Earth’s population.

Fozzie Bear Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:05:37pm

re: #70 sattv4u2

Even if NK attacks someone in China’s stead, then there will be a nuclear exchange right up against China’s border

You don’t really think the Chinese leadership gives a rats ass about it’s citizenery living on or near the Nok border, do you?

As a practical matter, yes, I think they care about the party’s continued maintenance of power. I think nuclear war nearby is a threat to that.

Governments, as a rule, don’t give a rats ass. That’s just how it is. They do what they have to to continue ruling.

freetoken Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:05:38pm

re: #67 Fozzie Bear

I just don’t see how China could possibly consider NK to be their trigger to pull.

Generally, I agree with that idea.

Yet today China is a bit of an anomaly, an admixture of a controlling central authority and wild, neo-mercantilistic, companies that are controlled by small groups (or individuals.)

So I can see where ISIS gets the basis for their proposition. I suppose there are those in China who see that they can profit from NK’s drive for a nuclear weapon.

Four More Tears Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:06:35pm

re: #72 Thanos

There is a way out. I hate to think of us as all doomed to nuclear death simply because you are right in that we can’t stop proliferation. However if we burn the fissionable substances for energy, they ain’t around for use in bombs. If energy & food is cheap, clean, and plentiful, then it’s more likely that madmen dictators won’t control vast swaths of Earth’s population.

We will never be allowed to have plentiful food and energy.

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:08:05pm

Let’s reverse the formula so people can see how it balances both ways: if China did not want North Korea to have nuclear weapons do you honestly think that they would have nuclear weapons?

Fozzie Bear Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:08:16pm

re: #72 Thanos

There is a way out. I hate to think of us as all doomed to nuclear death simply because you are right in that we can’t stop proliferation. However if we burn the fissionable substances for energy, they ain’t around for use in bombs. If energy & food is cheap, clean, and plentiful, then it’s more likely that madmen dictators won’t control vast swaths of Earth’s population.

I agree with that. As man’s destructive (and constructive) power increases with technology, it becomes less and less possible to weather a major war.

As MLK said, the choice is no longer between violence and nonviolence, the choice is now nonviolence or nonexistence. He was right. There simply isn’t any longer any room for all-out war between major nuclear powers. It would end humanity.

Fozzie Bear Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:09:01pm

re: #75 JasonA

We will never be allowed to have plentiful food and energy.

Plentiful food and energy would be the end of capitalism. Capitalism requires scarcity.

Four More Tears Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:12:16pm

re: #78 Fozzie Bear

Plentiful food and energy would be the end of capitalism. Capitalism requires scarcity.

Exactly. Why do we subsidize farmers to not grow too much again?

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:12:25pm

re: #78 Fozzie Bear

Nah, people would still find other things to trade - whether it were artwork or something else. It’s the way we are built and how we have socially evolved.

Fozzie Bear Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:13:13pm

re: #80 Thanos

Nah, people would still find other things to trade - whether it were artwork or something else. It’s the way we are built and how we have socially evolved.

Trade will always exist, sure. But remove scarcity, and you remove the need for currency, for capital.

freetoken Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:14:32pm

Example of the wild-west nature of China today - remember those coal miners, just recently in China, some of whom died in an accident? (There have been several coal mining tragedies lately so it’s easy to get them all confused.)

It appears some were dead by other means:

Workers shot in deadly row between rival mine bosses

Some of the nine miners previously thought to have died in a shed explosion last week in Southwest China’s Yunnan Province were killed by gunshots, local police said Monday.

[…]

“Autopsies show some of them were gunned down before the blast,” said Lu Qingwei, head of the public security bureau of Luxi county, where the mine is located.

[…]

The incident was apparently the result of a long-standing dispute between Zheng and Wang Jiangfu, the owner of the neighboring Xiaosongdi Coal Mine, who Zheng had accused of plundering his resources.

[…]

“The only thing we can confirm now is that the coal mine explosion was deliberately set off,” a police officer surnamed Zhang from the Luxi Public Security Bureau told the Global Times Monday.

[…]

There is a strong undercurrent of chaos in China, below the level of the controlling authorities in Beijing.

freetoken Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:16:47pm

re: #81 Fozzie Bear

But remove scarcity, and you remove the need for currency, for capital.

Heh, we call this the “Roddenberry Principle.”

Fozzie Bear Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:17:22pm

re: #81 Fozzie Bear

As an illustration, try to imagine a world in which it is a matter of trivial difficulty to provide for all the basic needs of humans. Imagine there were self-replicating machines that generated food, shelter, and security. (I.e., any world in which basic needs are trivialized by technology)

What would the function of an economy be in such a world?

Capitalism requires scarcity, and even generates it where there is none. It is also one of the most efficient ways to effectively manage scarcity.

It is more of a double edged sword than most people think it is, imo.

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:19:04pm

re: #84 Fozzie Bear

Neal Stephenson’s “The Diamond Age” addresses that question.

There’s still plenty for capitalism to do.

First As Tragedy, Then As Farce Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:19:51pm

re: #29 Gus 802

The ~~Huffington~~ Homeopathy Post. Are they worried about radiation exposure yet?

//

You’re joking, but according to homeopathy, a substance somehow becomes more effective the more dilute is. If that applies to radiation as well, then a TSA scanner is more radioactively potent than a big lungful of dust 30 seconds after a nuclear explosion.

Side note: Only Google for “homeopathy radiation” if you want to be in a bad mood.

Fozzie Bear Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:20:05pm

re: #85 Obdicut

Neal Stephenson’s “The Diamond Age” addresses that question.

There’s still plenty for capitalism to do.

It creates its own appetites. That’s an entirely different thing from actually needing an economy in the way we currently do, however.

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:20:13pm

re: #81 Fozzie Bear

Currency is merely the media of transaction, the goods, the energy, the creativity is the capital. Currency is just a means to track and bank trust and energy.

The reason capitalism will always be with us is simple: where ever you find freedom, there you will find capitalism. “You buy Krol?” heard in server wide chat from a small village in China on EQ servers is another reason. Even in non existent virtual space capitalism exists. It’s an inexorable force of human nature.

Fozzie Bear Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:22:22pm

re: #88 Thanos

Currency is merely the media of transaction, the goods, the energy, the creativity is the capital. Currency is just a means to track and bank trust and energy.

The reason capitalism will always be with us is simple: where ever you find freedom, there you will find capitalism. “You buy Krol?” heard in server wide chat from a small village in China on EQ servers is another reason. Even in non existent virtual space capitalism exists. It’s an inexorable force of human nature.

It is indeed. It’s also not necessary with sufficiently advanced technology. There is a difference between being functional and workable, and being necessary.

Also, there is a difference between trade and capitalism. Trade will ALWAYS be. Capitalism isn’t necessarily the same thing as having trade.

Four More Tears Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:22:48pm

Just think of how many people would be out of jobs if there was an abundance of food and energy. It’s a chilling thought.

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:24:00pm

re: #89 Fozzie Bear

That’s quite true.

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:24:03pm

re: #89 Fozzie Bear

no, there’s no diff. Trade is capitalism. Free trade that is..

Gus Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:25:17pm

re: #86 negativ

You’re joking, but according to homeopathy, a substance somehow becomes more effective the more dilute is. If that applies to radiation as well, then a TSA scanner is more radioactively potent than a big lungful of dust 30 seconds after a nuclear explosion.

Side note: Only Google for “homeopathy radiation” if you want to be in a bad mood.

Yikes. I only looked for a couple of second. I had this crazy idea about marketing homeopathic wine for the true believers. Just think of all the $5 dollar viles you could fill with one bottle of wine and 55,000 gallons of water. Knowing those suckers they’d probably think it was a cure for consumption.

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:25:34pm

The more advanced our tech becomes, the more weird our capitalism becomes. The virtual Krol knife is traded for real dollars for instance.

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:29:14pm

re: #92 Thanos

No, capitalism includes the ownership of capital, which is different than trade. Sometimes they’re not, but it’s not necessarily identical. For example, in a society where all material goods could be provided by robotic thingamajiggers, there’s be no capital barrier.

First As Tragedy, Then As Farce Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:30:35pm

re: #89 Fozzie Bear

It is indeed. It’s also not necessary with sufficiently advanced technology. There is a difference between being functional and workable, and being necessary.

Also, there is a difference between trade and capitalism. Trade will ALWAYS be. Capitalism isn’t necessarily the same thing as having trade.

Pretty interesting show about The Indian Ocean & the Future of American Power on my local NPR affiliate the other day. The guest had some real interesting points about the challenges of transitioning from an economy based on scarcity to one based on abundance.

Think is usually a pretty interesting show.

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:31:04pm

re: #90 JasonA

There’s phear speaking. Abundant food and energy would shrink the work week, make other things (such as education and real estate) more expensive, etc. etc. We’ve seen those effects in our life times. Things of true value will continue to inflate, and the definition of “true value” will change over time. It’s how we grow. Look at the example I gave above — there are villages supporting themselves pharming in virtual worlds.

Here’s a video lecture well worth watching that outlines some of the fantastic ways the net can be used, abused, and how regardless of what happens you still need people to do stuff. Pay particular attention to the mechanical Turk and micro charity sections….

Youtube Video

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:35:05pm

re: #95 Obdicut

property == capital, to trade you have to have property. Free trade == capitalism, coerced trade == communism in most cases.

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:36:23pm

re: #95 Obdicut

also please note that all things will never be able to be provided by robots or even AI’s.

100

JeffFX Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:37:15pm

re: #95 Obdicut

No, capitalism includes the ownership of capital, which is different than trade. Sometimes they’re not, but it’s not necessarily identical. For example, in a society where all material goods could be provided by robotic thingamajiggers, there’s be no capital barrier.

And no reason for the elites to keep the working class around.
I worry about a future where people who aren’t intelligent enough to be knowledge workers are useless. We seem to be moving in that direction.

101

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:38:21pm

re: #98 Thanos

No, property doesn’t equal capital. Capital is the non-consumed elements of production.

re: #99 Thanos

Sure they could.

102

Jack Burton Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:38:37pm

re: #99 Thanos

also please note that all things will never be able to be provided by robots or even AI’s.

Even if we had Star Trek replicators, there will always be at least 1 single resource that will always remain scarce. Land.

103

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:39:25pm

re: #102 ArchangelMichael

Unless you can create land.

Ian M. Banks has written a brilliant series of novels exploring such a society, the Culture series of novels. Highly recommended.

104

Jack Burton Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:40:24pm

re: #103 Obdicut

Unless you can create land.

Ian M. Banks has written a brilliant series of novels exploring such a society, the Culture series of novels. Highly recommended.

Unless you want to turn the planet into Coruscant… you cant past a certain point.

105

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:43:10pm

re: #104 ArchangelMichael

Not just one planet.

106

Gus Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:43:31pm

re: #93 Gus 802

Vials not viles. My brain is off line today.

107

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:44:35pm

sheesh, People certainly are nihilistic in here today… capitalism always was, and might always be. It’s human nature until we evolve to some higher state of being, and until then we will always find something of value to trade with. Labor as capital is fine, but in a virtual online world the very definition of what labor is and what it ain’t is changing. Intellectual capital is changing, and if it doesn’t rock your world that kids playing games produces real money for villages in China I guess nothing will.
World GDP has increased steadily by 3 percent annually since about Roman times, and so has inflation. What we value and trade with has also changed, but we are still around and doing much better than we were in Roman times everywhere in the world. Whatever happens humans manage to muddle their way through it to an improved future. That’s why I don’t have to really defend capitalism - it is, and will always be….. the ones who try to deny capitalism are the ones who get in trouble.

108

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:46:11pm

re: #102 ArchangelMichael

new poems. new songs, new paintings. new ideas. new leathercrafting. new flower breeds. etc etc etc etc

109

wrenchwench Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:49:50pm

re: #107 Thanos

we will always find something of value to trade with

I was surprised to learn yesterday that Mexico’s Gulf Cartel started with appliances. So everybody in the US needs to quit buying drugs that come from Mexico, and send them washers and dryers instead of guns, I guess.

110

Bubblehead II Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:50:38pm

OOPS!

Southwest: Law enforcement officer left loaded gun magazine on plane

111

engineer cat Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:51:09pm

re: #92 Thanos

no, there’s no diff. Trade is capitalism. Free trade that is..

trade existed for thousands of years before there was anything like capital to invest. barter does not necessarily result in accumulation of capital

generally, hunters and gatherers, and subsistence farmers, engage in trade at a low level and without designating any substance as “capital”. capital as such only came into being in post neolithic, post subsistence societies where there was a surplus and division of labor

some definitions
•Capitalism is an economic and social system in which capital and land, the non-labor factors of production (also known as the means of production), are privately owned; labor, goods and resources are traded in markets; and profit, after taxes, is distributed to the owners or invested

•Capitalism is “the condition of possessing capital“ [1]. It refers to an economic system whereby goods and services are exchanged on a for-profit basis. Exchange is generally mediated through money

an economic system in which private parties make their goods and services available on a free market and seek to make a profit on their activities

112

researchok Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:51:56pm

The most credible ‘anti capitalist’ efforts is represented by the Israeli Kibbutz movement. Their crdibility stems from the fact that they were not oppressive or repressive, members had full and equal rights and freedoms that no other society of it’s type had. In the end even they could not function outside a capitalist environment.

Over time, the Kibbutz movement has faded, giving way to other, more capitalist style communities. What is left of the Kibbutz movement are cooperatives that are today very wealthy. That wealth came about because of trade with purely capitalist trading partners. Had they had to rely on other non capitalist entities to trade with, they too would be bankrupt.

113

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:54:09pm

re: #107 Thanos

What is nihilistic about saying that capitalism is related to physical means of production and isn’t a necessary component of trade?

If you had a society where all material goods were provided, there’d still be trade, but there wouldn’t be capitalism.

114

Fozzie Bear Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:54:25pm

re: #98 Thanos

property == capital, to trade you have to have property. Free trade == capitalism, coerced trade == communism in most cases.

Much trade in our society is coerced, really. If you need something to survive, and have to trade for it, it is coerced.

It’s still all about scarcity.

115

researchok Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:56:46pm

re: #114 Fozzie Bear

Much trade in our society is coerced, really. If you need something to survive, and have to trade for it, it is coerced.

It’s still all about scarcity.

Or, capitalism is about expediency.

Capitalism serves societies much better than do wars or conflict. Societies and cultures that are at peace are much less likely to go to war if there free trade is put at risk.

116

engineer cat Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:56:57pm

…early post subsistance economies were also pre-capitalist: in sumeria, grain was accumulated in the priestly storehouses, and measured out to laborers when needed. it is difficult to say why this should not be described as a socialist state. trading and capitalism began to develop at this time, but the percentage of people involved in this sector of society was exceedingly small until only a few centuries ago

in short - no, capitalism is not an inherent state of human society

117

freetoken Tue, Nov 23, 2010 2:59:57pm

re: #116 engineer dog

in short - no, capitalism is not an inherent state of human society

Hunter-gatherers probably could best be described as “communal.”

Yet, even if early civilization included communal (religious though it was) life, it also seems that the rise of the city led to the trades which led to capitalism.

I think one could make a good case that division of labor implies the need for capitalism.

118

engineer cat Tue, Nov 23, 2010 3:00:13pm

re: #107 Thanos

sheesh, People certainly are nihilistic in here today… capitalism always was, and might always be. It’s human nature

this is incorrect

World GDP has increased steadily by 3 percent annually since about Roman times, and so has inflation.

this is also incorrect. trade, increase in GDP, and capitalism virtually disappeared in europe from about 600 - 900 ad

119

engineer cat Tue, Nov 23, 2010 3:02:15pm

re: #117 freetoken

I think one could make a good case that division of labor implies the need for capitalism.

try studying the economies of dynastic egypt, and sumeria and the mesopotamian societies that followed it. the state ran everything and traders were few and far between

120

freetoken Tue, Nov 23, 2010 3:04:53pm

re: #119 engineer dog

All societies which were eventually replaced.

I’m not arguing that capitalism is inherent in the species, H. sapiens.

I am offering up the proposition that the rise of complexity in human society has led to capitalism.

121

Fozzie Bear Tue, Nov 23, 2010 3:07:48pm

re: #120 freetoken

All societies which were eventually replaced.

I’m not arguing that capitalism is inherent in the species, H. sapiens.

I am offering up the proposition that the rise of complexity in human society has led to capitalism.

I tend to think that capitalism is a great approach to intermediate levels of complexity. I don’t think it is necessarily true that it will persist forever, however.

At some point, if we don’t kill ourselves off, we will be easily capable of living in space, on other planets, etc. In order for that to happen, we will have already had to have made energy generation trivial. Once that has happened, space (land) will be effectively infinite.

Before those two things have happened, capitalism will still have a role to play.

122

freetoken Tue, Nov 23, 2010 3:07:51pm

Esther’s new book is out:

Palin book sets out her “commonsense” platform

[…]
She believes federal taxes are a Washington “power grab” which should abolished, wants prayers allowed in schools and wants to overturn what President Barack Obama sees as his biggest legislative achievement — healthcare reform.

[…]

And on taxes, she shows her Tea Party stripes.
“America hasn’t always had an income tax,” she writes, noting the first such tax was in 1861 to fund the Civil War and was later repealed. “It wasn’t until 1913 that the Sixteenth Amendment to the Constitution was ratified and the individual federal income tax that we know today was created.”

[…]

It’s sounding rather… Paulian.

123

Killgore Trout Tue, Nov 23, 2010 3:09:13pm

Ugh. I was expecting the snow but I wasn’t expecting a hard freeze. I spent about 2 hours thawing out faucets to disconnect all the garden hoses etc. What a pain in the ass.

124

Fozzie Bear Tue, Nov 23, 2010 3:11:14pm

re: #123 Killgore Trout

Ugh. I was expecting the snow but I wasn’t expecting a hard freeze. I spent about 2 hours thawing out faucets to disconnect all the garden hoses etc. What a pain in the ass.

All I can think about is I hope your frogs made it to the bottom of the pond and hibernated successfully. For good or ill, you are synonymous with frogs now in my mind.

125

darthstar Tue, Nov 23, 2010 3:12:51pm

re: #122 freetoken

Esther’s new book is out:

Palin book sets out her “commonsense” platform

It’s sounding rather… Paulian.

In Palin’s defense, she has no idea what her ghostwriter meant by those words, but she’ll get back to ya on it.

126

Killgore Trout Tue, Nov 23, 2010 3:12:53pm

re: #124 Fozzie Bear

All I can think about is I hope your frogs made it to the bottom of the pond and hibernated successfully. For good or ill, you are synonymous with frogs now in my mind.

Yeah, I was thinking about that too. I could hear them singing up to about a week ago so they’re still around. I’m actually not too worried, they seem to know what they’re doing.

127

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Nov 23, 2010 3:13:42pm

re: #104 ArchangelMichael

Unless you want to turn the planet into Coruscant… you cant past a certain point.

“If we don’t do something now, in, like, twenty years, all of Coruscant is going to be one huge enormous CITY, man!”

“Don’t be ridiculous, Jinn.”

128

Bubblehead II Tue, Nov 23, 2010 3:18:57pm

re: #123 Killgore Trout

Ugh. I was expecting the snow but I wasn’t expecting a hard freeze. I spent about 2 hours thawing out faucets to disconnect all the garden hoses etc. What a pain in the ass.

We are still under a blizzard watch until 1700 hrs today. In the last 36 hrs we have gotten 7” (as measured in our yard) of snow and the temps (w/windchill) are expected to be in the subzero range.

Twin Falls, Idaho Weather Forecast.

129

jamesfirecat Tue, Nov 23, 2010 3:19:07pm

re: #121 Fozzie Bear

I tend to think that capitalism is a great approach to intermediate levels of complexity. I don’t think it is necessarily true that it will persist forever, however.

At some point, if we don’t kill ourselves off, we will be easily capable of living in space, on other planets, etc. In order for that to happen, we will have already had to have made energy generation trivial. Once that has happened, space (land) will be effectively infinite.

Before those two things have happened, capitalism will still have a role to play.

How do you have Captalisim in the “post scarcity society” of Star Trek for example?

130

Killgore Trout Tue, Nov 23, 2010 3:19:40pm

re: #128 Bubblehead II

Ouch. That sounds miserable.

131

darthstar Tue, Nov 23, 2010 3:20:32pm

re: #123 Killgore Trout

Ugh. I was expecting the snow but I wasn’t expecting a hard freeze. I spent about 2 hours thawing out faucets to disconnect all the garden hoses etc. What a pain in the ass.

The Sierras got between 8 and 10 feet of snow in this storm. I took my wife and headed to Palm Springs to spend the week with my parents. Sunny and cool here in the desert. Drinking good booze, going golfing tomorrow (worked from home today, but that doesn’t stop me from drinking good booze)…and having a good visit with the folks.

132

Bubblehead II Tue, Nov 23, 2010 3:24:42pm

re: #130 Killgore Trout

Ouch. That sounds miserable.

Only if you had to be outside. My manager called me and gave me the option of trying to make it in to work or taking a snow day. I took the snow day. I was hoping UPS would show up with my new monitor, but they haven’t shown up yet. :-(

133

Bubblehead II Tue, Nov 23, 2010 3:27:34pm

New Thread ———>

134

Walking Spanish Down the Hall Tue, Nov 23, 2010 3:51:13pm

re: #86 negativ

You’re joking, but according to homeopathy, a substance somehow becomes more effective the more dilute is. If that applies to radiation as well, then a TSA scanner is more radioactively potent than a big lungful of dust 30 seconds after a nuclear explosion.

Side note: Only Google for “homeopathy radiation” if you want to be in a bad mood.

Only if you’re shaken and stirred (succussed) in the right way.

135

Walking Spanish Down the Hall Tue, Nov 23, 2010 3:52:12pm

re: #103 Obdicut

Unless you can create land.

Ian M. Banks has written a brilliant series of novels exploring such a society, the Culture series of novels. Highly recommended.

Reading them now. Just finished Matter.

136

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 4:46:52pm

re: #118 engineer dog

this is incorrect

this is also incorrect. trade, increase in GDP, and capitalism virtually disappeared in europe from about 600 - 900 ad

So you find the exception and make it the rule… That’s somewhat silly. The general trend measured in centuries shows that on average it’s World GDP growth of 3% since Roman times. Sure there were times when it was less than that, but there were times when it was more. Hence average.

137

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 4:48:30pm

re: #116 engineer dog

Yes it is. Everywhere humans are free of tyranny and able to choose for themselves Capitalism mysteriously takes hold.

138

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 4:51:52pm

re: #111 engineer dog

Sorry but when the first grain horde was created so was capital. When the first stone axes were created some humans traded them. Look up the beaker traders, who used beer. THere are many many many more examples. Again, where freedom exists capitalism takes hold. All goods including intellectual property and labor, are capital. That is why money is “generally” used in the definition, but not “Always”. See the diff?

139

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Nov 23, 2010 4:53:13pm

re: #138 Thanos

A grain hoard isn’t capital.

140

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 4:54:30pm

re: #116 engineer dog

You think there wasn’t trade even then? Who made the sandals and how were they distributed? Who made the decorations and necklaces? Who made the tools? Who made the bread and how was it distributed? Who made the plows? Who traded in calves, sheep, dogs? Sorry, capitalism existed even then.

141

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 5:00:48pm

re: #139 Obdicut

By the definition posted property is capital, grain horde=property.

142

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Nov 23, 2010 5:02:05pm

re: #141 Thanos

No, your definition is simply wrong. Capital is the non-consumed physical means of production.

Why do you think property and capital are synonymous?

143

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 5:04:15pm

re: #142 Obdicut

Gosh, that’s not the way my company or my bank defines it, come back when we can discuss reality Obdi. Right now I’m off to kill atomic super mutants.

144

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Nov 23, 2010 5:07:25pm

re: #143 Thanos

Well, yeah, a bank defines capital in terms of money. That’s not the economic definition of it, oddly enough.

You mean financial capital, not capital as it’s meant for ‘capitalism’.

It’s a common mistake.

145

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 5:08:00pm

re: #142 Obdicut

One more thing: you can use grain seeds to grow another crop… so you are hosed in this arg even by your own definition.

146

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Nov 23, 2010 5:16:04pm

re: #145 Thanos

Non-consumed means of production, so no, sorry, no help there.

Think of ‘capital costs’.

147

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Nov 23, 2010 5:18:20pm

The wiki on real capital vs. financial capital is pretty straightforward

en.wikipedia.org

148

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Nov 23, 2010 5:35:59pm

re: #135 b_sharp

Reading them now. Just finished Matter.

Fuck, I have that book (and the Algebraist) haven’t started them yet

NO SPOILERRRS

149

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Nov 23, 2010 5:36:18pm

re: #145 Thanos

One more thing: you can use grain seeds to grow another crop… so you are hosed in this arg even by your own definition.

Dude, you got pwned

150

Romantic Heretic Tue, Nov 23, 2010 5:50:53pm

re: #85 Obdicut

Neal Stephenson’s “The Diamond Age” addresses that question.

There’s still plenty for capitalism to do.

That was a great book. Loved it.

151

Romantic Heretic Tue, Nov 23, 2010 6:02:40pm

re: #88 Thanos

Currency is merely the media of transaction, the goods, the energy, the creativity is the capital. Currency is just a means to track and bank trust and energy.

The reason capitalism will always be with us is simple: where ever you find freedom, there you will find capitalism. “You buy Krol?” heard in server wide chat from a small village in China on EQ servers is another reason. Even in non existent virtual space capitalism exists. It’s an inexorable force of human nature.

Um, in my opinion, no.

Capitalism, as an economic system, is much more comfortable in advanced authoritarian systems than it is in a democracy. As long as the authoritarian government isn’t opposed to capitalism as it was in the Soviet Union, current Iran and Communist China up until about twenty years ago.

Authoritarian systems tend to be very stable socially and this is a good thing for capitalism. The same ministers and policies stay in place for decades. This makes it easier for companies to plan for the future. Also things like unions, or any employee empowerment, are not regarded with love by authoritarian governments and tend to be smacked down hard.

On top of that there does tend to be corruption in authoritarian systems and corruption is cheaper than taxes, political spending and lobbyists. This isn’t to say that capitalism and democracy are enemies. But, in my opinion, the best they can have is a good working relationship. They aren’t good friends.

As my favorite writer puts it, “Capitalism was reasonably content under Hitler, happy under Mussolini, very happy under Franco and delirious under General Pinochet.”

152

Fozzie Bear Tue, Nov 23, 2010 6:06:55pm

I find the capitalism = freedom argument hilarious on its face.

Fit China in that model.

153

Romantic Heretic Tue, Nov 23, 2010 6:23:09pm

re: #152 Fozzie Bear

That’s why capitalism likes China in its current state. It’s a good place to do business.

154

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 6:24:14pm

Sorry — there’s not really a such thing as “state capitalism” which is what you get in rigid authoritarian systems. Redefining and deconstructing capitalism into what it really isn’t is almost as silly as the wingnuts trying to redefine fascism so it doesn’t fit them. Give it up.

China is a great example: the more capitalism it adopts, the more free it becomes. Things are happening in China now that would have never even been dreamt of in gang of four or Mao’s day…

155

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 6:36:23pm

re: #153 Romantic Heretic

It’s truly silly to speak of “capitalism” as if it were some sentient being with thoughts, likes, or dislikes… it just is. Think of it as the default position, some people, companies, countries, institutions would like it to drift one way or another, and there is no such thing as a Platonic “pure form” of capitalism. Every economy is mixed, and in most cases that’s good. Social contract is also a primal force of human nature, and these things tend to balance each other. In the end humanity muddles through to a better future.

156

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 6:39:57pm

re: #145 Thanos

Sorry seed you can plant a crop with is capital, give it up.

157

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 6:40:47pm

It’s humorous that people are downdinging me for this. Truly humorous, ding away.

158

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Nov 23, 2010 6:46:54pm

re: #156 Thanos

No, it’s really not, Thanos. I like and respect you, but you’re simply confusing financial capital with real capital. Real capital is very, very well defined, and part of the definition is that it is unconsumed in the productive process. Seed is consumed. It is definitely not real capital.

159

Fozzie Bear Tue, Nov 23, 2010 6:50:28pm

There’s only one way to invest grain. Grain isn’t capital.

Trade is not the same thing as capitalism.

160

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 6:53:28pm

re: #158 Obdicut

Well Obdi, I was talking about capital, not “real” capital, as is evidenced by my reference to virtual goods. “Real Capital” has a much narrower definition (e.g. “Real estate, etc.)

161

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Nov 23, 2010 6:56:16pm

re: #160 Thanos

No, we were talking about capital in reference to ‘capitalism’. The ‘capital’ in ‘capitalism’ is real capital, not financial capital.

162

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 6:56:42pm

No, there isn’t only one way to invest grain. There are multiple ways.
You can invest it into art by making an ugly collage
You can invest into bread
you can invest it into animal fodder
you can bank it and sit on it for years if well stored
You can certainly trade grain for other goods and commodities
you can buy futures or sell short

Should I continue, or will you agree that Grain’s almost as fluid as coin?

163

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 6:58:33pm

re: #161 Obdicut

There are varying opinions on that as you well know.

164

Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts Tue, Nov 23, 2010 6:59:07pm

re: #163 Thanos

There are varying opinions on that as you well know.

No, there aren’t. I’m sorry. I’m done talking about this.

165

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:02:07pm

re: #164 Obdicut

You might be done, I’m not. Capital originates from ancient Latin “Capitale” meaning… drumroll… Property.

166

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:09:55pm

For the rest of you I will link to the wiki page with it’s nutshell versions of the varied definitions. Depending on whether you are talking to an economist, a political economist, a marxist, an educator, or a banker the definition will vary, but essentially capital boils down to useful or valuable property.

Sometimes it’s not even property: in some business’ trained techs who are loyal to your company are human capital, to a caveman an arrow might be, to a farmer, or anyone else who listens to the farm report, grain could be capital.

en.wikipedia.org

167

Randall Gross Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:11:28pm

/argh its… not it’s

168

steve Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:21:04pm

Experts Believe N. Korea Had Outside Help for Nuke Site.

Would not surprise me!

169

Amory Blaine Tue, Nov 23, 2010 7:55:18pm

There’s no reason not to believe China doesn’t have high level leaders in the North Korean army. Or at the very least CIA type groups lending support and strategic intelligence.

170

Michael Orion Powell Wed, Nov 24, 2010 8:43:05pm

Mark Fitzpatrick, proliferation expert at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London, said he believed Chinese private firms and individuals, rather than state authorities, may have assisted Pyongyang.

That makes way more sense. The Chinese state knows that only a stable North Korea is in their best interest.

Spy Mode Auto

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