Wikipedia Co-Founder Unloads on Wikileaks

US News • Views: 38,398

The co-founder of Wikipedia, Larry Sanger, really unloaded on Wikileaks today through his Twitter account:

I’ll go ahead and say the obvious: Wikileaks is an enemy of the U.S.—and not just the government. Deal with them accordingly.

[…]

How does Wikileaks repeatedly get massive troves of classified material?

[…]

Did a person or group in the U.S. govt have access to ALL these docs & leak them to Wikileaks? If so, that person or group is traitorous.

[…]

I’m probably one of the few Progressives who doesn’t care for what #wikileaks is doing right now. Leaking this kind of info = dangerous #p2

[…]

@wikileaks Speaking as Wikipedia’s co-founder, I consider you enemies of the U.S.—not just the government, but the people.

[…]

@wikileaks What you’ve been doing to us is breathtakingly irresponsible & can’t be excused with pieties of free speech and openness.

(Hat tip: jaunte.)

Jump to bottom

379 comments
1 Kragar  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:15:54pm

How does Wikileaks repeatedly get massive troves of classified material?

[…]

Did a person or group in the U.S. govt have access to ALL these docs & leak them to Wikileaks? If so, that person or group is traitorous.

Valid question.

2 jaunte  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:18:41pm
I’m probably one of the few Progressives who doesn’t care for what #wikileaks is doing right now. Leaking this kind of info = dangerous


I’ll go along with that. It’s embarrassing for the politicians and diplomats and makes their jobs a lot harder, but the ‘little people’ we don’t read much about will be the ones that will get killed because of some of the info that comes out.

3 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:21:12pm

Thank you, Larry Sanger, for your wisdom and loyalty to your nation. Progressive you may be, but no one should ever question your patriotism.

And to Julian Assange (the founder of Wikileaks): Go fuck yourself with a railroad spike.

4 Political Atheist  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:22:12pm

re: #3 Dark_Falcon

Very well said.

5 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:22:18pm

Julian Assange, leaking classified information to the Nazis Al-Qaeda since 1941 2009.

Here’s hoping that one day, Julian Assange is looking at a quiet life, for the rest of his life, in SUPERMAX.

6 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:24:39pm

re: #5 Gus 802

Julian Assange, leaking classified information to the Nazis Al-Qaeda since 1941 2009.

Here’s hoping that one day, Julian Assange is looking at a quiet life, for the rest of his life, in SUPERMAX.

Seriously, jon Stewart should bring back his “Go Fuck Yourself” choir for Assange. That’s the kind of treatment he deserves.

7 Political Atheist  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:26:10pm

Had a chat with a friend who favored the release of the Pentagon papers etc. He leans in the “public service” view of Wikileaks.

So I asked him if he really wanted the President he voted for to have one more difficult thing on his list of things to deal with.

And if yet another destabilizing factor was a good thing right now in international affairs.

8 jaunte  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:26:19pm

Der Spiegel had some information up for a while, but took it down.

Earlier today, German newspaper Der Spiegel– one of five major international newspapers Wikileaks granted access to the files– posted answers to general questions about the diplomatic wires set to leak, in which they suggest tomorrow is the big day. That post has since been removed from their website.
[Link: www.mediaite.com…]
9 nhand42  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:30:02pm

If the government has done nothing wrong, they have nothing to hide. Wasn’t that the argument used in support of domestic wiretapping?

Secrets that endanger troops are redacted by Wikileaks; that’s part of the reason it’s taken so long to release this information.

10 jaunte  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:30:10pm

re: #7 Rightwingconspirator

Because of the leaks, the US diplomat corps has given warnings to India, The UK, France, Norway, Australia, Canada, Denmark, Italy, The Netherlands, Turkey, Afghanistan, Iceland, Russia, Sweden, Iraq, Israel, Belgium, Colombia, and China.

Maybe we could bill Assange for their hours.

11 blueraven  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:30:29pm
I’m probably one of the few Progressives who doesn’t care for what #wikileaks is doing right now. Leaking this kind of info = dangerous #p2

He might be surprised. I know a lot of progressives (not moonbats) who dont like this one bit. That includes me.

12 Irenicum  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:30:47pm

At first I leaned towards the Wikileaks side as being a new version of the Pentagon Papers, but now I believe that he’s putting hundreds of lives at risk for his own fame and sense of self righteousness. What Assange is doing is now criminal.

13 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:31:31pm

re: #9 nhand42

If the government has done nothing wrong, they have nothing to hide.

That is never true of governments.

14 jaunte  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:31:50pm

re: #9 nhand42

How could they know?

15 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:32:39pm

re: #7 Rightwingconspirator

Had a chat with a friend who favored the release of the Pentagon papers etc. He leans in the “public service” view of Wikileaks.

So I asked him if he really wanted the President he voted for to have one more difficult thing on his list of things to deal with.

And if yet another destabilizing factor was a good thing right now in international affairs.

What Assange has done is worse than anything Daniel Ellsburg even did. Ellsburg did redact the names of those engaged in covert operations or those who had informed on the Vietnamese communists; Assange has done no such thing. He just puts stuff out there, heedless of the harm he does.

16 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:33:24pm

re: #9 nhand42

If the government has done nothing wrong, they have nothing to hide. Wasn’t that the argument used in support of domestic wiretapping?

Secrets that endanger troops are redacted by Wikileaks; that’s part of the reason it’s taken so long to release this information.

We elect the people that run the government in the US. We did not vote for Julian Assange, and Australian, to make the decision that governance entails including those that put our national security at risk.

17 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:33:48pm

re: #9 nhand42

If the government has done nothing wrong, they have nothing to hide. Wasn’t that the argument used in support of domestic wiretapping?

Secrets that endanger troops are redacted by Wikileaks; that’s part of the reason it’s taken so long to release this information.

So… let’s see if I understand you. Wikileaks know more about the material than the US government? Wikileaks knows what is “proper” to release and what could be life threatening? Wikileaks is the final arbitrator on who’s lives will be in danger or not?

And you’re sure of this?

(The Obama administration on Friday condemned as “irresponsible” the expected release of classified diplomatic cables by the Wikileaks website and warned it will endanger “lives and interests.” [Link: www.realclearpolitics.com…] )

18 Mr.Boots  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:35:19pm

I’ll second that.

re: #4 Rightwingconspirator

19 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:35:35pm

re: #13 SanFranciscoZionist

That is never true of governments.

Exactly. Diplomatic cables often have confidential information about local situations or diplomatic negotiations that would be very damaging if made public.

20 Kragar  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:36:35pm

re: #9 nhand42

If the government has done nothing wrong, they have nothing to hide. Wasn’t that the argument used in support of domestic wiretapping?

Secrets that endanger troops are redacted by Wikileaks; that’s part of the reason it’s taken so long to release this information.

Your lack of understanding of international intelligence operations is mind boggling.

21 Political Atheist  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:36:48pm

re: #15 Dark_Falcon

He is motivated to harm or try to contain the United States. In his own mind he knows what we really should be doing. And his temper tantrums about it come out in attempts to point out every mistake real or imagined.

22 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:38:00pm

re: #20 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Your lack of understanding of international intelligence operations is mind boggling.

He’s signed off already… I thought we were possibly going to have an intelligent conversation with him/her… no dice.

23 SpaceJesus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:38:32pm

What does “deal with them accordingly” mean?

24 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:39:00pm

re: #22 Walter L. Newton

He’s signed off already… I thought we were possibly going to have an intelligent conversation with him/her… no dice.

Just a troll dropping a turd, then.

25 Kragar  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:41:30pm

re: #23 SpaceJesus

What does “deal with them accordingly” mean?

file charges under RICO, seizure of assets and funds perhaps.

26 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:42:02pm

re: #23 SpaceJesus

What does “deal with them accordingly” mean?

If you have an enemy bent on hurting you (and Assange is such an enemy) you stop him by any necessary means.

27 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:42:10pm

re: #9 nhand42

If the government has done nothing wrong, they have nothing to hide. Wasn’t that the argument used in support of domestic wiretapping?

Secrets that endanger troops are redacted by Wikileaks; that’s part of the reason it’s taken so long to release this information.

You are essentially assigning Assange and his crew the status of a sovereign government. Indeed, you are placing them above all sovereign governments. Why? Who are they to trust? Who voted for them? To whom are they accountable?
This is the power and status Assange obviously craves. The power you want to give him is not governmental or dictatorial, it is god-like.
Beyond that, if Assange can steal this sensitive material from governments, why can’t someone steal it from him? It’s not like he has the NSA working for him. Do you trust all of them?

28 Political Atheist  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:42:42pm

Tech note-Just me?
Clicking on my avatar and then recent comments just takes me to the main LGF page, not the search page.

29 jaunte  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:42:49pm

U.S. Code 793. Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information
[Link: www.law.cornell.edu…]

30 Irenicum  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:43:46pm

re: #28 Rightwingconspirator

Heh, weird. Same thing with me.

31 SpaceJesus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:44:08pm

re: #25 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I’m unfamiliar with RICO. How does this apply to wikileaks? In other words, does it remove the question of jurisdiction?

32 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:44:08pm

re: #9 nhand42

Really?
Why do you think this?

nhand42

(Logged in)
Registered since: Apr 23, 2010 at 3:23 pm
No. of comments posted: 15
No. of Pages posted: 0

33 Lidane  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:44:21pm

re: #12 Irenicum

At first I leaned towards the Wikileaks side as being a new version of the Pentagon Papers, but now I believe that he’s putting hundreds of lives at risk for his own fame and sense of self righteousness. What Assange is doing is now criminal.

Yeah, this. I’m pretty much in the same boat.

34 SpaceJesus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:44:59pm

Is execution a possibility for the pentagon leak? Is he military?

35 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:45:03pm

re: #23 SpaceJesus

What does “deal with them accordingly” mean?

Spankings, for all who would dislike it!

36 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:45:08pm

re: #28 Rightwingconspirator

Tech note-Just me?
Clicking on my avatar and then recent comments just takes me to the main LGF page, not the search page.

Small bug introduced while working on the search page — it’s fixed now.

37 Four More Tears  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:45:22pm

The name “Julian Assange” just screams Eurotrash to me…

38 Political Atheist  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:45:45pm

re: #36 Charles

Aha. Thanks.

39 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:46:26pm

re: #37 JasonA

The name “Julian Assange” just screams Eurotrash to me…

I prefer to think of him as Julian Assange.

40 Four More Tears  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:46:37pm

re: #35 Floral Giraffe

Spankings, for all who would dislike it!

I dislike it immensely!

*bends over*

41 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:46:58pm

re: #28 Rightwingconspirator

Sent it to Charles a while ago.
Code Monkey is backed up…

Youtube Video
42 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:47:08pm

re: #37 JasonA

The name “Julian Assange” just screams Eurotrash to me…

Wasn’t he in “Brain Candy”

Image: 006362_22.jpg

43 Kragar  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:47:16pm

re: #31 SpaceJesus

I’m unfamiliar with RICO. How does this apply to wikileaks? In other words, does it remove the question of jurisdiction?

Not sure if it actually would apply as international laws actually, but their must be something similar.

Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act

44 jaunte  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:51:39pm

re: #31 SpaceJesus

From Mark Thiessen’s Aug 3 Washington Post piece on Wikileaks:

In 1989, the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel issued a memorandum entitled “Authority of the Federal Bureau of Investigation to Override International Law in Extraterritorial Law Enforcement Activities.”

This memorandum declares that “the FBI may use its statutory authority to investigate and arrest individuals for violating United States law, even if the FBI’s actions contravene customary international law” and that an “arrest that is inconsistent with international or foreign law does not violate the Fourth Amendment.” In other words, we do not need permission to apprehend Assange or his co-conspirators anywhere in the world.
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com…]

45 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:51:49pm

re: #29 jaunte

U.S. Code 793. Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information
[Link: www.law.cornell.edu…]

10 years should do the trick. Although sometimes it’s multiplied “per conviction”. They also need to seize the Wikileaks computers. Those responsible for leaking the information should also face stiff penalties.

46 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:54:14pm

re: #45 Gus 802

10 years should do the trick. Although sometimes it’s multiplied “per conviction”. They also need to seize the Wikileaks computers. Those responsible for leaking the information should also face stiff penalties.


He’s already in custody.

Bradley Manning Believed to Be Source of New Information

As with the previous WikiLeaks documents, the source this time is believed to be Army Intelligence Spc. Bradley Manning, who was arrested for leaking the classified information in July.

The 22-year-old Army specialist had access to hundreds of thousands of diplomatic cables through military computers, thanks to intelligence changes put in place after the 9/11 attacks. Those changes intended to improve intelligence sharing among different agencies and departments.

47 SpaceJesus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:54:16pm

re: #44 jaunte

The DoJ has been horribly wrong on matters of international law before.

48 Four More Tears  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:54:24pm

re: #45 Gus 802

10 years should do the trick. Although sometimes it’s multiplied “per conviction”. They also need to seize the Wikileaks computers. Those responsible for leaking the information should also face stiff penalties.

I kind of think the leakers are the ones who deserve the lion’s share of the penalties, no?

49 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:54:37pm

re: #22 Walter L. Newton

He’s still logged in.

50 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:56:03pm

Where/how do you check to see who is logged in at lgf?

51 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:56:07pm

re: #46 NJDhockeyfan

He’s already in custody.

Bradley Manning Believed to Be Source of New Information

Yeah. I know about that creep. They’ve been making excuses in his defense. I think I even read some stupid drivel about something regarding his childhood. He’s under the UCMJ and is facing serious prison time.

52 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:56:18pm

re: #45 Gus 802

10 years should do the trick. Although sometimes it’s multiplied “per conviction”. They also need to seize the Wikileaks computers. Those responsible for leaking the information should also face stiff penalties.

Certain trade sanctions against the governments who shield him might be in order. Sweden’s lucrative arms industry, for instance, might have a tough time peddling their JAS-39 fighter and assorted Bofors missiles if they are denied certain items of American technology. Bi-lateral transactions involving any kind of sensitive technology should take account of this.

53 golgoth  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:56:24pm

re: #44 jaunte

Fuck Theissen. Don’t quote a torture loving armchair maniac. His reasoning is incredibly faulty and politically flexible.

54 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:57:52pm

re: #48 JasonA

I kind of think the leakers are the ones who deserve the lion’s share of the penalties, no?

Some would say they deserve even longer prison sentences. Technically they do if they’re in the military.

55 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:58:29pm

By the way, the Anchor 2010 Christmas Ale is tasty. Festive flavors.

56 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:58:33pm

re: #53 golgoth

Fuck Theissen. Don’t quote a torture loving armchair maniac. His reasoning is incredibly faulty and politically flexible.

Reading is comprehension… it’s the DOJ reasoning… not Theissen… or didn’t you notice… “This memorandum declares that “the FBI may use its statutory authority to investigate and arrest individuals for violating United States law, even if the FBI’s actions contravene customary international law” and that an “arrest that is inconsistent with international or foreign law does not violate the Fourth Amendment.” “

57 jaunte  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:58:56pm

re: #47 SpaceJesus

They’re probably wrong on this just as a practical matter; it seems like an unsupportable overreach to tell another country your law enforcement officers will be operating there, and they have no say in the matter.

58 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 9:59:00pm

re: #9 nhand42

If the government has done nothing wrong, they have nothing to hide. Wasn’t that the argument used in support of domestic wiretapping?

Secrets that endanger troops are redacted by Wikileaks; that’s part of the reason it’s taken so long to release this information.

1 - So then, you support warrant less wire tapping? Your logic is rather…unsound there. ;)

2 - As for redactions, they didn’t do a good enough job on that front. Too many names went unredacted.

3 - Widescale releases of classified information is bad. If he were serious about them, he’d send them to the GAO or some such and let them deal with it. But no. He releases them to primarily hurt US reputation.

59 jordash1212  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:00:03pm

Not all people within Wikileaks don’t necessarily care for the way in which Julian Assange released the last bundle of documents which revealed the identities of informants.

60 Kragar  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:00:15pm

First rule of Goverment classification: Need to Know. Who is Wikileaks to decide this?

61 TheSwedish  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:01:14pm

Do you share Sanger’s view, Mr. Johnson? Just as I respect your tendency to root through facts and make a considered judgment, I’m interested to read what your take is. I’d add that Assange is alleged to be quite the a-hole toward women, so that is one more reason to be ticked at him.

62 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:01:22pm

re: #59 jordash1212

Not all people within Wikileaks don’t necessarily care for the way in which Julian Assange released the last bundle of documents which revealed the identities of informants.

Did they leave or stay?

63 golgoth  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:01:29pm

re: #56 Walter L. Newton

Reading is comprehension… it’s the DOJ reasoning… not Theissen… or didn’t you notice… “This memorandum declares that “the FBI may use its statutory authority to investigate and arrest individuals for violating United States law, even if the FBI’s actions contravene customary international law” and that an “arrest that is inconsistent with international or foreign law does not violate the Fourth Amendment.” “

This is the guy who thinks that waterboarding is not torture and that even if it is, that there is a legal way of doing it. Using his “understanding” of law should be taken as completely wrong. If you can quote someone else who isnt a traitor to the Constitution then it would be more valid.

64 nhand42  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:02:14pm

re: #22 Walter L. Newton

He’s signed off already… I thought we were possibly going to have an intelligent conversation with him/her… no dice.

I’m still here, but you’ve already set the direction of the “conversation”, so I’m not going to waste my time.

65 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:02:58pm

re: #63 golgoth

This is the guy who thinks that waterboarding is not torture and that even if it is, that there is a legal way of doing it. Using his “understanding” of law should be taken as completely wrong. If you can quote someone else who isnt a traitor to the Constitution then it would be more valid.

That is not his understanding of anything. That is a memorandum from the DOJ… period. Read it again…

“This memorandum declares that “the FBI may use its statutory authority to investigate and arrest individuals for violating United States law, even if the FBI’s actions contravene customary international law” and that an “arrest that is inconsistent with international or foreign law does not violate the Fourth Amendment.”“

66 jaunte  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:03:12pm

re: #53 golgoth

Fuck Theissen. Don’t quote a torture loving armchair maniac. His reasoning is incredibly faulty and politically flexible.

I’d say he makes a pretty good point about Wikileaks being irresponsible.
From the linked article:

The Post found that the documents exposed at least one U.S. intelligence operative and identified about 100 Afghan informants — often including the names of their villages and family members. A Taliban spokesman said the group is scouring the WikiLeaks Web site for information to find and “punish” these informers.
67 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:03:13pm

re: #50 eclectic infidel

Master spy.
Button just under your nic.
Top left.
Absolutely fascinating.

68 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:03:33pm

it occurs to me that wikileaks is the most cyberpunk news story currently in the news cycle

69 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:03:58pm

re: #63 golgoth

This is the guy who thinks that waterboarding is not torture and that even if it is, that there is a legal way of doing it. Using his “understanding” of law should be taken as completely wrong. If you can quote someone else who isnt a traitor to the Constitution then it would be more valid.

Well, since you’re a Constitutional expert where in the Constitution does it give Julian Assange and Wikileaks the authority to release classified documents? Answer: nowhere. Assange is on “trial” here not Theissen.

70 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:04:07pm

re: #67 Floral Giraffe

WELCOME TO THE TRANSPARENT SOCIETY O_O

71 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:04:26pm

Please note: Wikileaks Staffers Resign in Internal Revolt.

Because they believed the material was not being properly redacted.

72 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:05:02pm

re: #64 nhand42

I’m still here, but you’ve already set the direction of the “conversation”, so I’m not going to waste my time.

Yawn.

73 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:05:28pm

re: #70 WindUpBird

WELCOME TO THE TRANSPARENT SOCIETY O_O

Pretty, please, DO put something on.
;)

74 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:05:36pm

I suspect that any discussion of what to do with Assange is academic anyway. He has managed to piss off a whole menagerie of characters who are decidedly less concerned with due process than we are: The Chinese secret police, the regime in Zimbabwe, the Russian mafia, and, most recently, the Turkish government.

75 golgoth  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:06:10pm

re: #65 Walter L. Newton

You misunderstand, this is Theissen stating a memorandum. That is not a law, that is not legal, that does not provide the FBI or any other government agency the ability to do anything. It is only an opinion. And it is Thiessen quoting it as if it was law. That is my problem with the mother fucker, he tries to make up laws so that facists in this country can take power.

76 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:06:21pm

Assange is going to get arrested again…

Wikileaks Founder Julian Assange Gets New Arrest Warrant

Wikileaks founder Julian Assange has a new warrant out for his arrest in Sweden, over earlier charges of rape, sexual molestation, and unlawful coercion of two women. The charges against Assange, announced in August, were dropped then renewed. Assange says he is innocent.

It was also revealed earlier this month that a group of former Wikileaks staff split off from the organization to start a separate website similar to Wikileaks, due to disagreements with Assange.

There has been strong discussion over whether Wikileaks is taking its role as a whistle-blower responsibly. The Afghan War Logs was believed to put the lives of Afghan informants at risk, as Wikileaks released their identities to the public sphere.

The pending information leak could be one of the last major information dumps Wikileaks will make.

77 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:07:12pm

re: #75 golgoth

You misunderstand, this is Theissen stating a memorandum. That is not a law, that is not legal, that does not provide the FBI or any other government agency the ability to do anything. It is only an opinion. And it is Thiessen quoting it as if it was law. That is my problem with the mother fucker, he tries to make up laws so that facists in this country can take power.

So you actually believed that Bush was a fascist?

78 golgoth  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:07:55pm

re: #69 Gus 802

Are you just going to waste my time?

It is in Article 54, section 3. That is exactly where it is located. Obviously, right after the section where the founding fathers setup the FAA and forbid death panels.

79 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:08:11pm

re: #75 golgoth

…he tries to make up laws so that facists in this country can take power.

Facists are taking over power in the US, really?

/Is it a full moon tonight?

80 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:08:17pm

Good night all.
Be well.
Keep Charles site clean, of at least let Stinky know where the mess is.
Later, taters.

81 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:08:32pm

re: #74 Shiplord Kirel

I suspect that any discussion of what to do with Assange is academic anyway. He has managed to piss off a whole menagerie of characters who are decidedly less concerned with due process than we are: The Chinese secret police, the regime in Zimbabwe, the Russian mafia, and, most recently, the Turkish government.

Can’t wait for him to piss of the Mossad.

82 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:09:57pm

re: #78 golgoth

Are you just going to waste my time?

It is in Article 54, section 3. That is exactly where it is located. Obviously, right after the section where the founding fathers setup the FAA and forbid death panels.

Uh, I was asking about Assange not the government. What that the hell do “death panels” have to do with the price of California potatoes?

83 golgoth  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:10:07pm

re: #77 Gus 802

Theissen advocated torture.

He tried to make it legal, he tried to go over strict laws signed by President Reagan that the US would not torture.

I am not saying that G.W. Bush was a facist, but he certainly had some underlings that were. Cheney may be one, Addington definitely was.

84 Opal  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:12:21pm

I have a son in the military and a few friends who have worked in embassies. These leaks are not good for the health and well-being of our troops or for our foreign service employees and their contacts around the world. Releasing documents without regard for the lives that may be lost or the lines of intelligence that will be closed is irresponsible. While I may not pick up on valuable tid-bits in these papers, people who don’t like us will. They may go about trying to tie up human intelligence assets we have around the world. This is about more than just wanting to embarrass the president and our embassy staff, and I would consider the leaker(s) to be treasonous and the Wikileaks staff to be enemies of the country. I’m not sure why our intelligence community has been unable find who has been leaking and hasn’t tracked down the staff at Wikileaks.

85 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:12:46pm

re: #83 golgoth

Theissen advocated torture.

He tried to make it legal, he tried to go over strict laws signed by President Reagan that the US would not torture.

I am not saying that G.W. Bush was a facist, but he certainly had some underlings that were. Cheney may be one, Addington definitely was.

They aren’t in power anymore. Who are the new facists in power?

86 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:12:52pm

re: #83 golgoth

Theissen advocated torture.

He tried to make it legal, he tried to go over strict laws signed by President Reagan that the US would not torture.

I am not saying that G.W. Bush was a facist, but he certainly had some underlings that were. Cheney may be one, Addington definitely was.

You must have missed a turn on your way to your 12 step meeting.

87 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:14:47pm

re: #83 golgoth

Theissen advocated torture.

He tried to make it legal, he tried to go over strict laws signed by President Reagan that the US would not torture.

I am not saying that G.W. Bush was a facist, but he certainly had some underlings that were. Cheney may be one, Addington definitely was.

Marc Thiessen’s opinions on waterboarding is irrelevant here and you surely have an axe to grind.

88 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:14:48pm

re: #86 Walter L. Newton

You must have missed a turn on your way to your 12 step meeting.

Joe’s Bar had a special on Tequila shots earlier.

89 jaunte  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:15:10pm

re: #84 Opal


Releasing documents without regard for the lives that may be lost or the lines of intelligence that will be closed is irresponsible.


This, repeated for emphasis.

90 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:15:58pm

Off to work… catch you all in the AM…

91 golgoth  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:17:32pm

re: #85 NJDhockeyfan

They aren’t in power anymore. Who are the new facists in power?

I didn’t say that the Obama Administration were facists, so dont put words in my mouth.

I am saying that people like Thiessen support facism (actual facism, as in state control and authoritarianism). The people who support torture were members of the last Administration and may be members of the next Republican administration if it is elected. That is why he should not be tolerated as a voice of consideration.

92 Kronocide  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:17:33pm

re: #9 nhand42

If the government has done nothing wrong, they have nothing to hide.

That is extremely simplistic and no justification for what happened.

93 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:18:10pm

re: #61 TheSwedish

Do you share Sanger’s view, Mr. Johnson? Just as I respect your tendency to root through facts and make a considered judgment, I’m interested to read what your take is. I’d add that Assange is alleged to be quite the a-hole toward women, so that is one more reason to be ticked at him.

I don’t respect what Assange is doing. He’s targeted the United States because he knows the US isn’t going to hunt him down and kill him for what he’s doing — unlike many of the nations that are the REAL bad actors in this world. The US is a safe target. It would take real guts to do what he’s doing to a nation like North Korea or Russia — and that’s why he doesn’t go after them.

Assange is not accountable to anyone. Why should I trust him more than the people elected to run this country? The answer is, I don’t. And he has no right to expect the same level of trust that I would give to those who are elected in a democratic process.

94 Very Very Urban  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:18:33pm

I consider myself a moderate liberal and I think Assange is a douche with a god complex. We may not be able to legally do anything to him as he isn’t a citizen but if I ever find myself in Sweden I wouldn’t mind running into him at a bar.

95 golgoth  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:20:20pm

re: #87 Gus 802

Marc Thiessen’s opinions on waterboarding is irrelevant here and you surely have an axe to grind.

Of course I do, Newton quoted Thiessen’s words saing that a memo from the FBI enables Assange to be arrested.

Theissen is a fucking moron and I consider him to be a traitor.

I ask for other sources, and no comment, just dumping on me for asking for other sources and not to use Thiessen.

96 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:21:55pm

re: #95 golgoth

Actually, your are being “dumped” on because your posts come off as rather hostile.

97 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:22:47pm

re: #96 Varek Raith

Actually, you’re are being “dumped” on because your posts come off as rather hostile.


Frak!

98 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:22:53pm

re: #95 golgoth

Of course I do, Newton quoted Thiessen’s words saing that a memo from the FBI enables Assange to be arrested.

Theissen is a fucking moron and I consider him to be a traitor.

I ask for other sources, and no comment, just dumping on me for asking for other sources and not to use Thiessen.

Advocating enhanced interrogation is not treason. It is neither making war against the United States, nor is it adhering to our enemies. You may call Mr. Thiessen wrong, but he is not a traitor.

99 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:23:10pm

re: #91 golgoth

I didn’t say that the Obama Administration were facists, so dont put words in my mouth.

I never said that. You said:

..That is my problem with the mother fucker, he tries to make up laws so that facists in this country can take power.

So I just want to know which facists are taking power in this country. Please list all the facists that you know about.

100 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:23:13pm

re: #93 Charles

I don’t respect what Assange is doing. He’s targeted the United States because he knows the US isn’t going to hunt him down and kill him for what he’s doing — unlike many of the nations that are the REAL bad actors in this world. The US is a safe target. It would take real guts to do what he’s doing to a nation like North Korea or Russia — and that’s why he doesn’t go after them.

Assange is not accountable to anyone. Why should I trust him more than the people elected to run this country? The answer is, I don’t. And he has no right to expect the same level of trust that I would give to those who are elected in a democratic process.

Assange is not only less accountable than a democratic government, he is less accountable than a thug dictator. Even Kim Jong Il has to answer to the international community for his actions.

101 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:23:32pm

re: #95 golgoth

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 37 > § 793

§ 793. Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information

(a) Whoever, for the purpose of obtaining information respecting the national defense with intent or reason to believe that the information is to be used to the injury of the United States, or to the advantage of any foreign nation, goes upon, enters, flies over, or otherwise obtains information concerning any vessel, aircraft, work of defense, navy yard, naval station, submarine base, fueling station, fort, battery, torpedo station, dockyard, canal, railroad, arsenal, camp, factory, mine, telegraph, telephone, wireless, or signal station, building, office, research laboratory or station or other place connected with the national defense owned or constructed, or in progress of construction by the United States or under the control of the United States, or of any of its officers, departments, or agencies, or within the exclusive jurisdiction of the United States, or any place in which any vessel, aircraft, arms, munitions, or other materials or instruments for use in time of war are being made, prepared, repaired, stored, or are the subject of research or development, under any contract or agreement with the United States, or any department or agency thereof, or with any person on behalf of the United States, or otherwise on behalf of the United States, or any prohibited place so designated by the President by proclamation in time of war or in case of national emergency in which anything for the use of the Army, Navy, or Air Force is being prepared or constructed or stored, information as to which prohibited place the President has determined would be prejudicial to the national defense; or
(b) Whoever, for the purpose aforesaid, and with like intent or reason to believe, copies, takes, makes, or obtains, or attempts to copy, take, make, or obtain, any sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, document, writing, or note of anything connected with the national defense; or
(c) Whoever, for the purpose aforesaid, receives or obtains or agrees or attempts to receive or obtain from any person, or from any source whatever, any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note, of anything connected with the national defense, knowing or having reason to believe, at the time he receives or obtains, or agrees or attempts to receive or obtain it, that it has been or will be obtained, taken, made, or disposed of by any person contrary to the provisions of this chapter; or
(d) Whoever, lawfully having possession of, access to, control over, or being entrusted with any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it on demand to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it; or…

102 blueraven  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:23:48pm

re: #95 golgoth

Of course I do, Newton quoted Thiessen’s words saing that a memo from the FBI enables Assange to be arrested.

Theissen is a fucking moron and I consider him to be a traitor.

I ask for other sources, and no comment, just dumping on me for asking for other sources and not to use Thiessen.

No that’s not what you did at all.

You demanded that Theissan not be quoted. You didn’t ask. You could have said, um..I would like to see another source. You were rude from the get go.

103 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:24:00pm

re: #101 Gus 802

(e) Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it; or
(f) Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense,
(1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or
(2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
(g) If two or more persons conspire to violate any of the foregoing provisions of this section, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each of the parties to such conspiracy shall be subject to the punishment provided for the offense which is the object of such conspiracy.
(h)
(1) Any person convicted of a violation of this section shall forfeit to the United States, irrespective of any provision of State law, any property constituting, or derived from, any proceeds the person obtained, directly or indirectly, from any foreign government, or any faction or party or military or naval force within a foreign country, whether recognized or unrecognized by the United States, as the result of such violation. For the purposes of this subsection, the term “State” includes a State of the United States, the District of Columbia, and any commonwealth, territory, or possession of the United States.
(2) The court, in imposing sentence on a defendant for a conviction of a violation of this section, shall order that the defendant forfeit to the United States all property described in paragraph (1) of this subsection.
(3) The provisions of subsections (b), (c), and (e) through (p) of section 413 of the Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Act of 1970 (21 U.S.C. 853 (b), (c), and (e)–(p)) shall apply to—
(A) property subject to forfeiture under this subsection;
(B) any seizure or disposition of such property; and
(C) any administrative or judicial proceeding in relation to such property,
if not inconsistent with this subsection.
(4) Notwithstanding section 524 (c) of title 28, there shall be deposited in the Crime Victims Fund in the Treasury all amounts from the forfeiture of property under this subsection remaining after the payment of expenses for forfeiture and sale authorized by law.

104 golgoth  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:24:50pm

re: #101 Gus 802

Thank you.

That is law.

105 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:33:01pm

re: #100 Shiplord Kirel

Assange is not only less accountable than a democratic government, he is less accountable than a thug dictator. Even Kim Jong Il has to answer to the international community for his actions.

That leaves us with no choice but to send Julian Assange a strongly worded letter.

//

106 lazardo  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:33:22pm

So sayeth a man that runs a website often questioned for its ‘reliability’ and ‘bias’ on current events…

107 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:34:41pm

re: #105 Gus 802

That leaves us with no choice but to send Julian Assange a strongly worded letter.

//

The letter must ask him to unclench his fist.
/

108 golgoth  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:35:21pm

re: #98 Dark_Falcon

Waterboarding is torture.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

[Link: www.nationalreview.com…]

Take what you want about popularity of it against terrorists, when other countries do it against dissidents or US soldiers we will have no right to complain because traitors like Thiessen think it isn’t torture.

109 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:36:46pm
110 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:40:55pm
111 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:41:54pm

re: #108 golgoth

How’s that list of facists coming?

112 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:42:04pm

Uh, look … you really ought to know by now that it’s not cool to post comments like that at LGF. Don’t you think?

113 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:42:08pm

re: #108 golgoth

Waterboarding is torture.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

[Link: www.nationalreview.com…]

Take what you want about popularity of it against terrorists, when other countries do it against dissidents or US soldiers we will have no right to complain because traitors like Thiessen think it isn’t torture.

I’m not talking about what waterboarding is, I’m talking about what treason is. And Marc Thiessen’s actions and words do not qualify as treason.

114 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:42:43pm
115 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:43:22pm

re: #108 golgoth

Waterboarding is torture.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

[Link: www.nationalreview.com…]

Take what you want about popularity of it against terrorists, when other countries do it against dissidents or US soldiers we will have no right to complain because traitors like Thiessen think it isn’t torture.

That’s quite a wide net you cast. I happen to think that waterboarding is a form of torture however I don’t think those that supported or support its use qualifies them as traitors.

116 laZardo  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:44:10pm

re: #100 Shiplord Kirel

Assange is not only less accountable than a democratic government, he is less accountable than a thug dictator. Even Kim Jong Il has to answer to the international community for his actions.

That’s implying he does.

117 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:44:43pm

re: #115 Gus 802

That’s quite a wide net you cast. I happen to think that waterboarding is a form of torture however I don’t think those that supported or support its use qualifies them as traitors.

I think golgoth’s intent here is to derail from the subject of the thread.

118 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:44:47pm

re: #112 Charles

Uh, look … you really ought to know by now that it’s not cool to post comments like that at LGF. Don’t you think?

Sorry about that. I let my anger get the better of me. I apologize.

119 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:46:10pm

re: #117 Varek Raith

I think golgoth’s intent here is to derail from the subject of the thread.

Ya think?

120 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:46:31pm

re: #117 Varek Raith

I think golgoth’s intent here is to derail from the subject of the thread.

Yeah. Somehow this became something about waterboarding. But I’m wondering though if the motivation behind defending Assange is simply to get back at Bush for that and the Iraq War.

121 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:47:04pm

re: #119 NJDhockeyfan

Ya think?

It’s a standard tactic: If you’re losing on topic A, redirect the conversation to Topic B.

122 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:47:41pm

re: #119 NJDhockeyfan

Ya think?

I just like stating the painfully obvious sometimes.
;)

123 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:47:54pm

re: #112 Charles

Uh, look … you really ought to know by now that it’s not cool to post comments like that at LGF. Don’t you think?

Oops. Shitbags like that get me cranky. Sorry about that. I will control myself.

124 laZardo  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:48:09pm

re: #122 Varek Raith

I just like stating the painfully obvious sometimes.
;)

Looking for a promotion, captain?

125 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:48:48pm

re: #116 laZardo

That’s implying he does.

How well they do at holding Kim accountable is irrelevant, the fact is they can hold him accountable if they so choose.


Btw, I wonder if Assange has the coordinates of any Nork artillery positions or the identities of any West Bank terrorist cells. If he does, would he be good enough to share them? What would his apologists say if he does?

126 jaunte  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:48:51pm

re: #124 laZardo

That would mean the Generally Obvious.

127 jaunte  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:50:11pm

re: #125 Shiplord Kirel

He might be too busy to comment.


Rights Groups Join Criticism of WikiLeaks

“We have seen the negative, sometimes deadly ramifications for those Afghans identified as working for or sympathizing with international forces,” the human-rights groups wrote in their letter, according to a person familiar with it. “We strongly urge your volunteers and staff to analyze all documents to ensure that those containing identifying information are taken down or redacted.”

In his response to the letter signed by the human-rights organizations, Mr. Assange asked what the groups were doing to analyze the documents already published, and asked whether Amnesty in particular would provide staff to help redact the names of Afghan civilians, according to people familiar with the letter.

An Amnesty official replied to say that while the group has limited resources, it wouldn’t rule out the idea of helping, according to people familiar with the reply. The official suggested that Mr. Assange and the human-rights groups hold a conference call to discuss the matter.

Mr. Assange then replied: “I’m very busy and have no time to deal with people who prefer to do nothing but cover their asses. If Amnesty does nothing I shall issue a press release highlighting its refusal,” according to people familiar with the exchange. [Link: online.wsj.com…]

128 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:51:19pm

re: #127 jaunte

He might be too busy to comment.

But the WSJ is owned by teh Fox News!!11ty

//

129 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:51:58pm

re: #120 Gus 802

Yeah. Somehow this became something about waterboarding. But I’m wondering though if the motivation behind defending Assange is simply to get back at Bush for that and the Iraq War.

Nobody challenged him/her/it on waterboarding but they keep bringing it up

130 jaunte  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:53:10pm

re: #128 Gus 802

Hey, that well is poisoned!

131 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:53:57pm

re: #128 Gus 802

But the WSJ is owned by teh Fox News!!11ty

//

Facist news strikes again!
//

132 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:54:21pm

re: #130 jaunte

Hey, that well is poisoned!

Too late! We are all Neocons now.

//

133 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:54:26pm

re: #127 jaunte

He might be too busy to comment.

He’s kind full of himself, isn’t he?

134 engineer cat  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:55:37pm

mr assange is playing a very dangerous game

135 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:58:03pm

re: #133 Dark_Falcon

He’s kind full of himself, isn’t he?

It’s pretty obvious when you see him speak. We used to call that “affected” back in the 70s. He also portrays himself as being some kind of hero who has put his life on the line. How ironic is that considering that he doesn’t care about the lives of others in his ego stroking quest.

136 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:58:46pm

re: #134 engineer dog

mr assange is playing a very dangerous game

He obviously doesn’t care. He probably feels like he’s hurting the US and feels really good about it, damn the number of people who get killed as a result.

137 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:59:04pm

Assange has a god complex.
Big time.

138 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 10:59:46pm

re: #135 Gus 802

It’s pretty obvious when you see him speak. We used to call that “affected” back in the 70s. He also portrays himself as being some kind of hero who has put his life on the line. How ironic is that considering that he doesn’t care about the lives of others in his ego stroking quest.

Sounds like a sociopath to me. Someone who really doesn’t care about others, but who uses a cause to make it look like her does and thus hide his true nature.

139 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:00:50pm

re: #137 Varek Raith

Assange has a god complex.
Big time.

He’s also very naive like most of the anti-war people. He thinks that releasing these documents will lead to “peace and harmony” when in fact it will likely have the reverse effect. Our enemies, yes we still have enemies, will not play along. They never do.

140 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:01:05pm

South Korea orders journalists off island

South Korea’s Defence Ministry has ordered journalists to leave the front-line island of Yeonpyeong, citing high tension with North Korea.

The ministry says “the situation is not good” on the island, following the start of South Korea-US military drills in Yellow Sea waters to the south.

Earlier Sunday, the military ordered islanders and journalists to evacuate to shelters following after several artillery rounds were heard. None of the rounds hit the island.

141 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:05:55pm

North Korea’s undercover journalists reveal misery of life in dictatorship

With its ruthless dictator, network of forced labour camps and iron grip of its ruling party, North Korea is the last country one might expect to see a middle-aged woman berating a policeman for demanding a bribe.

But extraordinary video images smuggled out of North Korea, combined with reports of graffiti and posters critical of the regime, indicate a growing willingness among a previously cowed public to speak out and demand change.

Such dissent would once have been unthinkable in the reclusive state, but now hunger and plummeting living standards are now triggering demands for freedom - something that no North Korean has ever experienced.

Evidence of the rising tide of discontent has been captured on film by a small group of “citizen journalists”, who newsgather at great personal risk to themselves. They then carry the footage across the heavily guarded border into China.

In one dramatic clip, a woman who is trying to board a truck to take her to work flies into a rage after a uniformed policeman demands a bribe. She shouts at him and waves her finger in his face until he backs away. Emboldened, other people come to her aid, shouting at the officer.

The clip ends with the unidentified woman yelling: “This cop is an idiot!”

In another chilling scene, a dejected and apparently emaciated woman is seen scavenging for grass to feed her animals. Asked what she herself eats at home, she pauses before replying flatly: “Nothing.”

142 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:07:07pm

THE United States has rejected talks with WikiLeaks over its planned release of confidential US documents.

WikiLeaks, the whistle-blower website, is holding the documents in violation of US law, the US State Department says in a letter to site founder Julian Assange and his lawyer.

“We will not engage in a negotiation regarding the further release or dissemination of illegally obtained US government classified materials,” State Department legal adviser Harold Koh wrote.

“As you know, if any of the materials you intend to publish were provided by any government officials, or any intermediary without proper authorisation, they were provided in violation of US law and without regard for the grave consequences of this action.

“As long as WikiLeaks holds such material, the violation of the law is ongoing.”

…

US officials said Assange had sent a letter to the Department of State on Friday, in which he tried to address US concerns that WikiLeaks’ planned release of classified documents placed individual persons at risk.

In his letter, Assange said he wanted information regarding individuals who might be “at significant risk of harm” because of WikiLeaks’ actions, the officials said.

It was not immediately clear what other offers, if any, Assange’s letter contained.

But Koh’s response strongly condemned the anticipated release.

“Despite your stated desire to protect those lives, you have done the opposite and endangered the lives of countless individuals,” the US legal adviser wrote.

“You have undermined your stated objective by disseminating this material widely, without redaction, and without regard to the security and sanctity of the lives your actions endanger.”

Koh said the document release would have “grave consequences” and place at risk the lives of “countless innocent individuals”, from journalists to human rights activists to bloggers and soldiers.

Talks? He wants to have “talks” with OUR government regarding these releases? Now he’s holding us hostage if not blackmailing us. This is an outrage. And I mean that.

143 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:11:00pm

re: #142 Gus 802

THE United States has rejected talks with WikiLeaks over its planned release of confidential US documents.

Talks? He wants to have “talks” with OUR government regarding these releases? Now he’s holding us hostage if not blackmailing us. This is an outrage. And I mean that.

Assange is a total douchebag.

/I will withhold further comments to prevent a timeout.

144 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:11:05pm

re: #142 Gus 802

THE United States has rejected talks with WikiLeaks over its planned release of confidential US documents.

Talks? He wants to have “talks” with OUR government regarding these releases? Now he’s holding us hostage if not blackmailing us. This is an outrage. And I mean that.

Quite Concur. You don’t negotiate with someone over this sort of thing; if you do you’ll look weak and scumbags will be holding your feet to the fire over everthing. The only answer we need to send to Julian Assange on his requests for negotiation is as follows:

To: Julian Assange
Re: You request for negotiations

NUTS!

From: Barack Obama

145 Kragar  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:12:00pm

Masters of Math, From Old Babylon

If the cost of digging a trench is 9 gin, and the trench has a length of 5 ninda and is one-half ninda deep, and if a worker’s daily load of earth costs 10 gin to move, and his daily wages are 6 se of silver, then how wide is the canal?

Or, a better question: if you were a tutor of Babylonian scribes some 4,000 years ago, holding a clay tablet on which this problem was incised with cuneiform indentations — the very tablet that can now be seen with 12 others from that Middle Eastern civilization at the Institute for the Study of the Ancient World — what could you take for granted, and what would you need to explain to your students? In what way did you think about measures of time and space? How did you calculate? Did you believe numbers had an abstract existence, each with its own properties?

And how would you have figured out the width of that canal (which, the tablet tells us, is one-and-a-half ninda)?

Spend some time at this modest yet thoroughly intriguing exhibition, “Before Pythagoras: The Culture of Old Babylonian Mathematics,” and you begin to realize that the answers can be far more cryptic than these tablets were before great scholars like Otto E. Neugebauer began to decipher them during the first half of the 20th century.

146 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:12:22pm

re: #144 Dark_Falcon

Quite Concur. You don’t negotiate with someone over this sort of thing; if you do you’ll look weak and scumbags will be holding your feet to the fire over everthing. The only answer we need to send to Julian Assange on his requests for negotiation is as follows:

To: Julian Assange
Re: You request for negotiations

NUTS!

From: Barack Obama

Upding for the historic reference!

147 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:12:51pm

re: #144 Dark_Falcon

Quite Concur. You don’t negotiate with someone over this sort of thing; if you do you’ll look weak and scumbags will be holding your feet to the fire over everthing. The only answer we need to send to Julian Assange on his requests for negotiation is as follows:

To: Julian Assange
Re: You request for negotiations

NUTS!

From: Barack Obama

Hold the line!

148 Kragar  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:13:18pm

Wasn’t there a Bond movie based on a guy like Assange?

If not, there should be.

149 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:15:34pm

re: #148 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Wasn’t there a Bond movie based on a guy like Assange?

If not, there should be.

Julian Assange could never capture James Bond and put him on a laser cutter.

150 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:16:27pm

re: #146 NJDhockeyfan

Upding for the historic reference!

Balls!
/

151 jaunte  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:17:01pm

re: #148 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I think he’s doing an update on the Captain Nemo character.

152 Kragar  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:17:17pm

re: #149 NJDhockeyfan

Julian Assange could never capture James Bond and put him on a laser cutter.

He could have a midget with a razor sharp hat though.

153 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:18:27pm

re: #146 NJDhockeyfan

re: #147 Gus 802

Thanks. I actually read a very good article in WWII Magazine recently about how the 101st Airborne stopped a German attack spearheaded by Mark IV tanks and STUG II assault guns on Christmas Day, 1944 with the help of some M18 Hellcat Tank Destroyers. That reminded me of General MacAuliffe’s defiance of the German demands for surrender.

154 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:18:42pm

re: #152 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

He could have a midget with a razor sharp hat though.

With an insatiable appetite for Happy Meals™.

155 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:19:48pm

re: #154 Gus 802

With an insatiable appetite for Happy Meals™.

He would be pissed off if he got hungry for one in SF.

156 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:20:15pm

re: #149 NJDhockeyfan

Julian Assange could never capture James Bond and put him on a laser cutter.

MI6 would never send James Bond after a lowlife like Assange. It would too easy, and a waste of Bond’s talent. It’s like breaking an egg with a hammer.

157 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:21:03pm

re: #153 Dark_Falcon

re: #147 Gus 802

Thanks. I actually read a very good article in WWII Magazine recently about how the 101st Airborne stopped a German attack spearheaded by Mark IV tanks and STUG II assault guns on Christmas Day, 1944 with the help of some M18 Hellcat Tank Destroyers. That reminded me of General MacAuliffe’s defiance of the German demands for surrender.

Heh. General Patton was very impressed with that answer to the Nazis.

158 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:23:19pm

re: #153 Dark_Falcon

re: #147 Gus 802

Thanks. I actually read a very good article in WWII Magazine recently about how the 101st Airborne stopped a German attack spearheaded by Mark IV tanks and STUG II assault guns on Christmas Day, 1944 with the help of some M18 Hellcat Tank Destroyers. That reminded me of General MacAuliffe’s defiance of the German demands for surrender.

Assange would have released all of our secret documents for the world to see. He would do it of course because “all wars are bad”. Sheesh.

159 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:24:12pm

North Korea “readies missiles”

YEONPYEONG, South Korea (Reuters) - North Korea has placed surface-to-surface missiles on launch pads in the Yellow Sea, Yonhap news agency reported on Sunday, as the United States and South Korea began military exercises and China said it would try to ensure peace.

South Korean President Lee Myung-bak told a visiting Chinese delegation that Beijing, North Korea’s only major ally which is traditionally reluctant to criticise the reclusive regime, should do more to help.

China, which agreed with South Korea that the situation was “worrisome,” would try to stop it deteriorating, the delegation responded, the presidential Blue House and Chinese media said.

Yonhap also said North Korea had moved surface-to-air missiles to frontline areas, days after it shelled a tiny South Korean island killing four people. The North’s official KCNA news agency warned of retaliatory action if its territory is violated.

The Defence Ministry told journalists to leave the island, Yeonpyeong, because the situation was “bad.”

Many residents evacuated earlier said they did not want to return.

That doesn’t sound very good.

160 jaunte  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:24:58pm

More Wikileaks and Korea news tomorrow.
In the meantime, good night, all.

161 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:25:14pm

I am going to bed. Later gators!

162 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:25:27pm

re: #142 Gus 802

THE United States has rejected talks with WikiLeaks over its planned release of confidential US documents.

Talks? He wants to have “talks” with OUR government regarding these releases? Now he’s holding us hostage if not blackmailing us. This is an outrage. And I mean that.

Assange truly does regard himself as a sovereign entity. His imperious manner strongly suggested so. This outrageous attempt to negotiate as an equal with a sovereign state seals it.

163 laZardo  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:26:38pm

re: #162 Shiplord Kirel

Assange is a hacker, mind. I doubt he needs anyone within the government to get the files for him.

164 Kragar  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:28:08pm

re: #163 laZardo

Assange is a hacker, mind. I doubt he needs anyone within the government to get the files for him.

Of course that means breaking several dozen international laws.

165 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:30:04pm

re: #163 laZardo

Assange is a hacker, mind. I doubt he needs anyone within the government to get the files for him.

Yet he did.

166 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:31:02pm

re: #163 laZardo

Assange is a hacker, mind. I doubt he needs anyone within the government to get the files for him.

He’s admitted he gets them from inside sources. His background doesn’t suggest much in the way of hacking skills. He is, rather, an organizer and manipulator akin to a televangelist or cult leader.

167 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:32:15pm

re: #163 laZardo

Assange is a hacker, mind. I doubt he needs anyone within the government to get the files for him.

How he gets the files is not relevant anyway. He is not a sovereign state and has no right to demand that he be treated like one.

168 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:33:20pm

re: #167 Shiplord Kirel

How he gets the files is not relevant anyway. He is not a sovereign state and has no right to demand that he be treated like one.

Quite Concur. But now I too must head to bed. Sleep well, All.

169 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:33:29pm

re: #167 Shiplord Kirel

How he gets the files is not relevant anyway. He is not a sovereign state and has no right to demand that he be treated like one.

Who knows what other information he might be selling for profit in the background.

170 laZardo  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:42:19pm

re: #127 jaunte

He might be too busy to comment.

He might have a point though. Pretty much all these human rights groups do these days is issue angry statements.

171 golgoth  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:42:55pm

I come to this blog to read what Charles has to say, but dear god you people in the comment section are as bad as the Palinites.

The second someone comes into your “territory” of ideas, you scramble enmass to keep order of a certain thought.

172 Kronocide  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:43:41pm

You’re acting like Palin.

173 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:44:02pm

Otoh, we could recognize Assange’s sovereignty, declare war on him and hold him and his operatives indefinitely as PoWs.

174 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:44:16pm

re: #171 golgoth

Ah, so now you’re wanting to start trouble. I can guarantee you that you will lose.

175 laZardo  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:47:27pm

re: #171 golgoth

I come to this blog to read what Charles has to say, but dear god you people in the comment section are as bad as the Palinites.

The second someone comes into your “territory” of ideas, you scramble enmass to keep order of a certain thought.

SOUNDS FLOUNCEY.

176 Gus  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:48:37pm

re: #175 laZardo

SOUNDS FLOUNCEY.

And we’re fresh out of martyr cookies.

177 TedStriker  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:49:39pm

re: #171 golgoth

I come to this blog to read what Charles has to say, but dear god you people in the comment section are as bad as the Palinites.

The second someone comes into your “territory” of ideas, you scramble enmass to keep order of a certain thought.

Dear golgoth,

You know two things right now: Jack and shit…and Jack left town.

Sincerely,
talon_262

178 sagehen  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:50:20pm

re: #146 NJDhockeyfan

Upding for the historic reference!

Historic reference? You mean he wasn’t making a pop culture (Jericho) reference?

179 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:51:56pm

re: #177 talon_262

Dear golgoth,

You know two things right now: Jack and shit…and Jack left town.

Sincerely,
talon_262

Shop smart.
Shop S-Mart.

180 laZardo  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:52:36pm

If I support determining people’s fates with the flip of a coin, does that make me a twofacist?

181 TedStriker  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:54:05pm

re: #179 Varek Raith

Shop smart.
Shop S-Mart.

This is my BOOMSTICK!

Image: boomstick1.jpg

182 laZardo  Sat, Nov 27, 2010 11:57:09pm

For your entertainment, 4chan’s Predictions of What The WikiLeak Will Contain.

NSFW text, none related to pictures as of posting.

183 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 12:00:13am

Not long ago, I read an interview with Julian Assange in which he declared his ostensibly journalistic objective to be that of “ending” the war. Most edifying. The easiest way of ending it would be for one side to cease fighting it. (That almost happened in Iraq before the surge, when Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and al-Qaida claimed control of a province or two.) I have an intuition that I know which side Assange wishes would capitulate. Call it an instinct if you like.

Christopher Hitchens from Iraq Through Night-Vision Goggles

184 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 12:02:33am

re: #183 Gus 802

Here’s another one:

Objective is not the word one would select for either the aims or methods of WikiLeaks. I was interested to read that one of Julian Assange’s deputies recently resigned over his decision to give the crass title “Collateral Murder” to a video from Baghdad. But no careful reading of the latest blizzard of documents could support any conclusion except that the verdict on responsibility for the murder of innocents is the same for Iraq as the United Nations’ conclusion about Afghanistan.

The continuing bloodbath is chiefly the result of an obscene alliance between the goons of the previous dictatorship and the goons of a would-be-future theocratic one. - Christopher Hitchens

185 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 12:03:57am

I love the way he calls Assange’s co-conspirators “deputies”. The shoe fits.

186 Kronocide  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 12:06:23am

Assange’s posting of ‘Collateral Murder’ was scandalous enough, this new release of information is orders of magnitude worse.

But lets talk about Cheney and waterboarding, shall we?

187 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 12:09:59am

re: #186 BigPapa

Assange’s posting of ‘Collateral Murder’ was scandalous enough, this new release of information is orders of magnitude worse.

But lets talk about Cheney and waterboarding, shall we?

I’m surprised no one brought up the TSA.

//

188 laZardo  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 12:10:50am

re: #187 Gus 802

I’m surprised no one brought up the TSA.

//

Am I the only one that can’t wait to strike a sexy pose in one of those X-ray scanners?

189 laZardo  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 12:14:27am

Heading to gym, bbl

190 jordash1212  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 12:15:17am

re: #62 NJDhockeyfan

I believe they’re still there.

191 nhand42  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 12:16:20am

re: #175 laZardo

SOUNDS FLOUNCEY.

Cut his mike?

192 Kronocide  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 12:28:12am

For a minute I thought there was some Assangebots here.

193 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 12:39:01am

re: #192 BigPapa

For a minute I thought there was some Assangebots here.

I suppose there will always be people who are on the wrong side of history. Defending Assange is one of those cases.

194 Kronocide  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 12:43:19am

re: #193 Gus 802

I suppose there will always be people who are on the wrong side of history. Defending Assange is one of those cases.

Coincidentally those who are on the wrong side of history are also usually on the wrong side of reality then play the victim when that reality pokes them in the eye.

Easily moving into a Bush/Torture tangent at this point is seriously detached.

195 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 12:54:06am

The whole “Wikipedia’s co-founder” title is a little pretentious. Sanger left Wikipedia as soon as he realized what it was (not just an encyclopedia but also a wiki in which anybody could contribute — a realization that horrified him eventually). He has not had any real authority or credibility with Wikipedia and their community of contributors for about 8 years (!) now. Quite the opposite, he continually tries to smear it, as shown by his recent, pathetic attempt to connect Wikimedia to the distribution of child pornography, a story broken by Fox News…

196 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 12:54:29am

re: #194 BigPapa

Coincidentally those who are on the wrong side of history are also usually on the wrong side of reality then play the victim when that reality pokes them in the eye.

Easily moving into a Bush/Torture tangent at this point is seriously detached.

But like I alluded to earlier the “Bush/Torture tangent” is part of the overall agenda or narrative of the anti-war movement.

197 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 12:56:13am

re: #195 000G

The whole “Wikipedia’s co-founder” title is a little pretentious. Sanger left Wikipedia as soon as he realized what it was (not just an encyclopedia but also a wiki in which anybody could contribute — a realization that horrified him eventually). He has not had any real authority or credibility with Wikipedia and their community of contributors for about 8 years (!) now. Quite the opposite, he continually tries to smear it, as shown by his recent, pathetic attempt to connect Wikimedia to the distribution of child pornography, a story broken by Fox News…

Do you approve of the leaking of classified information to the public?

198 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 12:58:58am

re: #197 Gus 802

Do you approve of the leaking of classified information to the public?

That’s not what I was talking about. How about you answer me this question first, then I answer yours: Do you approve of the argument from authority implicit in the mentioning of the “Wikipedia’s co-founder” title, especially when Sangers has turned his back on what he founded when he realized what it was?

199 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 12:59:31am

Assange Arrest Warrant on Rape Charges Upheld by Appeals Court in Sweden

A Swedish appeals court upheld an arrest warrant on rape charges for WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange.

The ruling means that an international arrest warrant for Assange is valid, the Swedish Prosecution Authority said today. The court made an “adjustment” to the warrant that the crime is regarded as “less serious,” the court said.

Bjoern Hurtig, Assange’s lawyer, said he would appeal the case to the supreme court. “We are disappointed, but are hopeful about an appeal after the court changed the wording,” Hurtig said.

Sweden’s criminal police had issued an international warrant for Assange, Interpol said on Nov. 20. He had been under investigation on rape charges in Sweden since August.

The alleged crimes occurred while Assange was in Sweden delivering lectures on WikiLeaks’ publishing of classified U.S. military documents related to the war in Afghanistan. Hurtig said his client didn’t commit any crimes.

200 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:00:06am

re: #198 000G

That’s not what I was talking about. How about you answer me this question first, then I answer yours: Do you approve of the argument from authority implicit in the mentioning of the “Wikipedia’s co-founder” title, especially when Sangers has turned his back on what he founded when he realized what it was?

OK I’ll be blunt. Fuck Assange and the bus he rode in.

201 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:00:45am

re: #200 Gus 802

OK I’ll be blunt. Fuck Assange and the bus he rode in.

I was not talking about Assange. I was talking about Sanger. I believe that it is on-topic in a thread quoting him to begin with.

202 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:03:59am

re: #201 000G

I was not talking about Assange. I was talking about Sanger. I believe that it is on-topic in a thread quoting him to begin with.

You’re complaining about what Charles wrote. The references to Larry Sanger are to his Twitter comments and there is no reference to him being a founder of Wikipedia in those comments. His comments, I might add, are 100 percent correct on his assessment of Assange. Bringing up his being featured at Fox News is just an attempt to poison the well: “he was on Fox News therefore he must be bad and can’t be trusted.”

203 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:04:58am

Re-quoted for truth reality:

I’ll go ahead and say the obvious: Wikileaks is an enemy of the U.S.—and not just the government. Deal with them accordingly.

[…]

How does Wikileaks repeatedly get massive troves of classified material?

[…]

Did a person or group in the U.S. govt have access to ALL these docs & leak them to Wikileaks? If so, that person or group is traitorous.

[…]

I’m probably one of the few Progressives who doesn’t care for what #wikileaks is doing right now. Leaking this kind of info = dangerous #p2

[…]

@wikileaks Speaking as Wikipedia’s co-founder, I consider you enemies of the U.S.—not just the government, but the people.

[…]

@wikileaks What you’ve been doing to us is breathtakingly irresponsible & can’t be excused with pieties of free speech and openness

204 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:08:06am

re: #202 Gus 802

You’re complaining about what Charles wrote.
I am complaining of the use of “Co-founder of Wikipedia” in the headlines whenever Sanger is mentioned in the media. It does not matter whether it’s Charles or Fox News or CNN or what have you.

The references to Larry Sanger are to his Twitter comments and there is no reference to him being a founder of Wikipedia in those comments.

There is in this thread.

His comments, I might add, are 100 percent correct on his assessment of Assange.

I did not talk about Assange.

Bringing up his being featured at Fox News is just an attempt to poison the well: “he was on Fox News therefore he must be bad and can’t be trusted.”

Baloney, I am not “attempting to poison the well”. Stop your baseless accusations that you cannot back up anyhow! I just know from experience in the Wikipedia community that Sanger is an incredible media attention addict.

205 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:08:32am

Larry Sanger IS a co-founder of Wikipedia:

“Wales and Sanger created the first Nupedia wiki on January 10, 2001. The initial purpose was to get the public to add entries that would then be “fed into the Nupedia process” of authorization. Most of Nupedia’s expert volunteers, however, wanted nothing to do with this, so Sanger decided to launch a separate site called “Wikipedia.” Neither Sanger nor Wales looked on Wikipedia as anything more than a lark. This is evident in Sanger’s flip announcement of Wikipedia to the Nupedia discussion list. “Humor me,” he wrote. “Go there and add a little article. It will take all of five or ten minutes.” And, to Sanger’s surprise, go they did. Within a few days, Wikipedia outstripped Nupedia in terms of quantity, if not quality, and a small community developed. In late January, Sanger created a Wikipedia discussion list (Wikipedia-L) to facilitate discussion of the project.”

206 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:09:13am
You’re complaining about what Charles wrote.


I am complaining of the use of “Co-founder of Wikipedia” in the headlines whenever Sanger is mentioned in the media. It does not matter whether it’s Charles or Fox News or CNN or what have you.

The references to Larry Sanger are to his Twitter comments and there is no reference to him being a founder of Wikipedia in those comments.

There is in this thread.

His comments, I might add, are 100 percent correct on his assessment of Assange.

I did not talk about Assange.

Bringing up his being featured at Fox News is just an attempt to poison the well: “he was on Fox News therefore he must be bad and can’t be trusted.”

Baloney, I am not “attempting to poison the well”. Stop your baseless accusations that you cannot back up anyhow! I just know from experience in the Wikipedia community that Sanger is an incredible media attention addict.

207 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:09:52am

re: #205 Gus 802

Larry Sanger IS a co-founder of Wikipedia:

I did not ever deny or question this. The truth of the matter is, though:

The whole “Wikipedia’s co-founder” title is a little pretentious. Sanger left Wikipedia as soon as he realized what it was (not just an encyclopedia but also a wiki in which anybody could contribute — a realization that horrified him eventually). He has not had any real authority or credibility with Wikipedia and their community of contributors for about 8 years (!) now. Quite the opposite, he continually tries to smear it, as shown by his recent, pathetic attempt to connect Wikimedia to the distribution of child pornography, a story broken by Fox News…

208 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:10:03am

re: #204 000G

There is in this thread.

I did not talk about Assange.

Baloney, I am not “attempting to poison the well”. Stop your baseless accusations that you cannot back up anyhow! I just know from experience in the Wikipedia community that Sanger is an incredible media attention addict.

re: #206 000G

I am complaining of the use of “Co-founder of Wikipedia” in the headlines whenever Sanger is mentioned in the media. It does not matter whether it’s Charles or Fox News or CNN or what have you.

There is in this thread.

I did not talk about Assange.

Baloney, I am not “attempting to poison the well”. Stop your baseless accusations that you cannot back up anyhow! I just know from experience in the Wikipedia community that Sanger is an incredible media attention addict.

My, getting a little bit hot under the collar aren’t we?

209 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:10:45am

re: #207 000G

I did not ever deny or question this. The truth of the matter is, though:

Kumbaya! So, when do we start the drum circle?

210 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:11:14am

re: #208 Gus 802

re: #206 000G

My, getting a little bit hot under the collar aren’t we?

No, just forgot to preview my frequent use of the blockquote tag in one post, made neccessary by the frequent falsehoods and fallacies in your post.

211 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:11:53am

re: #209 Gus 802

Kumbaya! So, when do we start the drum circle?

I dunno. I am out of this thread. It’s silly.

212 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:11:59am

re: #210 000G

No, just forgot to preview my frequent use of the blockquote tag in one post, made neccessary by the frequent falsehoods and fallacies in your post.

What falsehoods? I’m quoting information I have found just as much as you are in your defense of Ass.

213 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:12:05am

re: #207 000G

I did not ever deny or question this. The truth of the matter is, though:

Do you have a problem with Sanger personally or with what he said (as quoted by Charles)?

214 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:13:24am

The left hasn’t changed over the years. They haven’t budged one single inch. Some things remain constant.

215 Tigger2  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:13:27am

re: #11 blueraven

He might be surprised. I know a lot of progressives (not moonbats) who dont like this one bit. That includes me.


I am one of those to that doesn’t like what wikileaks is doing, I think it is damn irresponsible .

216 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:21:00am

[Nupedia-l] Let’s make a wiki
Larry Sanger lsanger[x]nupedia.com
Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:50:32 -0800

* Previous message: [Nupedia-l] Library and Information Science is active!
* Next message: [Nupedia-l] Let’s make a wiki
* Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]

No, this is not an indecent proposal. It’s an idea to add a little
feature to Nupedia. Jimmy Wales thinks that many people might find the
idea objectionable, but I think not.

“Wiki,” pronounced wee’-kee, derives from a Polynesian word,
“wikiwiki,” but
what it means is a VERY open, VERY publicly-editable series of web
pages. For example, I can start a page called EpistemicCircularity and
write anything I want in it. Anyone else (yes, absolutely anyone else)
can come along and make absolutely any changes to it that he wants to.
(The editing interface is very simple; anyone intelligent enough to
write or edit a Nupedia article will be able to figure it out without
any trouble.) On the page I create, I can link to any other pages, and
of course anyone can link to mine. The project is billed and pursued as
a public resource. There are a few announced suggestions or rules. The
concept actually seems to work well, as you can see here with the
original wiki:

[Link: c2.com…]

Links are indicated by using CapitalizedWordsBunchedTogetherLikeThis.
If a wiki page exists, the word is underlined; if not, there is a
question mark after the word, which is clickable, and which anyone can
use to go and write something about the topic.

Setting up a wiki for Nupedia would be very easy; it can be done in
literally ten minutes. (We’ve already found this out.)

As to Nupedia’s use of a wiki, this is the ULTIMATE “open” and simple
format for developing content. We have occasionally bandied about ideas
for simpler, more open projects to either replace or supplement Nupedia.
It seems to me wikis can be implemented practically instantly, need very
little maintenance, and in general are very low-risk. They’re also a
potentially great source for content. So there’s little downside, as
far as I can see. We can make wiki versions of all new Nupedia
articles, too, and that can be a place where additional changes and
commentary can be gleaned (authors could ignore what goes on on the
wiki, of course—it’s up to them). The content can be licensed under an
open content license.

A Nupedia wiki would instruct users to try to make their entries
resemble encyclopedia articles, but the usual wiki sort of banter would
be permitted. This would make things more interesting to many users,
who could *instantly* create, edit, and comment on articles. If a wiki
article got to a high level it could be put into the regular Nupedia
editorial process.

We would not integrate the Nupedia wiki into the rest of Nupedia (though
wiki pages could link to regular Nupedia pages, there wouldn’t be links
back). It would be a completely separate part of the website. The
search engine would not return wiki pages, and wiki pages wouldn’t be
listed among other regular Nupedia pages. We’d just have a link on the
left or right hand column of the website, “Nupedia Wiki”, and let people
explore it if they’re curious what it is. On the front page of the
Nupedia wiki we’d make it ABSOLUTELY clear that this is experimental,
that Nupedia editors don’t have control of what goes on here, and that
the quality of articles, discussion, etc., should not be taken as a
reflection of the quality of articles, review, etc. on the main part of
the Nupedia website.

Does anyone have an objection to our trying this out?

Larry

If Larry Sanger isn’t a co-founder I don’t know who is.

217 SpaceJesus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:26:19am

huh. so what do you guys think should be done about this?

218 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:29:06am

re: #217 SpaceJesus

huh. so what do you guys think should be done about this?

File charges against Julian Assange under TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 37 > § 793 Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information, arrest him, the extradite him to face a trial in the US. At the same time shut down Wikileaks and seize all of their computer equipment.

219 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:31:57am

Ha! They’re whining about President Obama on “Democracy Now!” This is with Daniel Ellsberg (traitor) and the reliable moonbat, Amy Goodman.

220 SpaceJesus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:36:15am

re: #218 Gus 802

illegal

221 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:39:15am

re: #220 SpaceJesus

illegal

With a court order and a warrant. Although that may prove difficult since Ass. maintains his servers overseas.

222 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:42:10am

re: #221 Gus 802

With a court order and a warrant. Although that may prove difficult since Ass. maintains his servers overseas.

There’s always Stuxnet.

223 SpaceJesus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:47:32am

re: #221 Gus 802

also difficult seeing as how the 1st amendment likely doesn’t permit such a prosecution

224 freetoken  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:50:05am

re: #223 SpaceJesus

also difficult seeing as how the 1st amendment likely doesn’t permit such a prosecution

Perhaps an iffy defense. 1st Amendment defenses won’t necessarily work where secrets are involved.

225 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:50:14am

Dept_of_State_Assange_letter.pdf (application/pdf Object)

The Legal Adviser
United States Department of State
Washington, D.C. 20520
November 27, 2010

Via Electronic Mail
Ms. Jennifer Robinson
Attorney for Mr. Julian Assange
WikiLeaks
London WIW 5LS

Dear Ms. Robinson and Mr. Assange:

I am writing in response to your 26 November 2010 letter to U.S. Ambassador Louis B. Susman regarding your intention to again publish on your WikiLeaks site what you claim to be classified U.S. Government documents.

As you know, if any of the materials you intend to publish were provided by any government officials, or any intermediary without proper authorization, they were provided in violation of U.S. law and without regard for the grave consequences of this action. As long as WikiLeaks holds such material, the violation of the law is ongoing.

It is our understanding from conversations with representatives from The New York Times, The Guardian and Der Speigel, that WikiLeaks also has provided approximately 250,000 documents to each of them for publication, furthering the illegal dissemination of classified documents.

Publication of documents of this nature at a minimum would:

• Place at risk the lives of countless innocent individuals – from journalists to human rights activists and bloggers to soldiers to individuals providing information to further peace and security;

• Place at risk on-going military operations, including operations to stop terrorists, traffickers in human beings and illicit arms, violent criminal enterprises and other actors that threaten global security; and,

• Place at risk on-going cooperation between countries – partners, allies and common stakeholders – to confront common challenges from terrorism to pandemic diseases to nuclear proliferation that threaten global stability.

• In your letter, you say you want – consistent with your goal of “maximum disclosure” – information regarding individuals who may be “at significant risk of harm” because of your actions.

Despite your stated desire to protect those lives, you have done the opposite and endangered the lives of countless individuals. You have undermined your stated objective by disseminating this material widely, without redaction, and without regard to the security and sanctity of the lives your actions endanger. We will not engage in a negotiation regarding the further release or dissemination of illegally obtained U.S. Government classified materials. If you are genuinely interested in seeking to stop the damage from your actions, you should: 1) ensure WikiLeaks ceases publishing any and all such materials; 2) ensure WikiLeaks returns any and all classified U.S. Government material in its possession; and 3) remove and destroy all records of this material from WikiLeaks’ databases.

Sincerely,
s/ Harold Hongju Koh
Harold Hongju Koh
Legal Adviser

226 SpaceJesus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:52:21am

re: #224 freetoken

New York Times Co. v. United States, 403 U.S. 713 (1971)


the parallels are too strong here

227 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:53:01am

re: #223 SpaceJesus

also difficult seeing as how the 1st amendment likely doesn’t permit such a prosecution

It might be difficult for old Julian to claim 1st Amendment protection considering that he is not a US citizen. File charges against him under the Espionage Act, etc. If the charges are put together correctly he can also be charged with aiding enemies of the USA or providing aid and comfort to enemy combatants.

228 freetoken  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:53:46am

re: #226 SpaceJesus

But… I was about to write… the issue which will likely be raised is the previous actions of news outlets.

Yet Assange might not be successful in portraying himself as such, might it not?

229 SpaceJesus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:54:18am

re: #227 Gus 802

you are charging him with a us law

230 freetoken  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:54:30am

Assange could be considered a foreign operative, not a member of the press.

231 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:54:38am

re: #226 SpaceJesus

New York Times Co. v. United States, 403 U.S. 713 (1971)

the parallels are too strong here

Like I said above. The NY Times is a US entity. Julian Assange is not and is an Australian national. He can be considered a foreign enemy.

232 SpaceJesus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:55:38am

re: #231 Gus 802


you are charging him with a us law

233 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 1:56:34am

re: #229 SpaceJesus

you are charging him with a us law

But the way 793 is written it allows that: Whoever, for the purpose of obtaining information respecting the national defense with intent or reason to believe that the information is to be used to the injury of the United States…

“Whoever” is the key here.

234 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:03:15am

re: #225 Gus 802

Dept_of_State_Assange_letter.pdf (application/pdf Object)

Harold Hongju Koh

Harold Hongju Koh (Hangul: 고홍주, Hanja: 高洪柱 ; born December 8, 1954) is an American lawyer and legal scholar. He currently serves as the Legal Adviser of the Department of State. He was nominated to his current position by President Barack Obama on March 23, 2009, and confirmed by the Senate on June 25, 2009.

In public service, Koh previously served in the United States Department of State during the Clinton administration as Assistant Secretary of State for Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor. In academia, he served as a member of the faculty of Yale Law School, and later as its Dean.

235 SpaceJesus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:04:17am

re: #233 Gus 802


you can’t charge someone with federal law, then say that federal law (the constitution) doesnt apply to them

236 SpaceJesus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:05:45am

re: #233 Gus 802


also, how are you going to prove that they obtained the info with intent? from the story, it looks like it was simply given to them without their request

237 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:06:16am

re: #235 SpaceJesus

you can’t charge someone with federal law, then say that federal law (the constitution) doesnt apply to them

There are limits to the 1st Amendment. There’s also Article 3, Section 3 of the Constitution which reads:

Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

Otherwise, ever spy that has ever been charged could claim a 1st Amendment “right.”

238 SpaceJesus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:06:42am

oh, and for the internet record, julian is a cock stain. if you want someone to hang, go after the leak inside the pentagon

239 Kragar  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:06:58am

re: #236 SpaceJesus

also, how are you going to prove that they obtained the info with intent? from the story, it looks like it was simply given to them without their request

They then made the choice to publish and protect their source.

240 freetoken  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:07:30am

re: #237 Gus 802

Be careful there…

“Treason” is normally thought of as a citizen against their own nation.

“Espionage” and associated crimes can be committed by anyone.

241 SpaceJesus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:07:33am

re: #237 Gus 802


this would be an argument pertinent to the guy who leaked the info from within the pentagon.

242 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:07:58am

re: #236 SpaceJesus

also, how are you going to prove that they obtained the info with intent? from the story, it looks like it was simply given to them without their request

I’m not exactly going to figure out a prosecution here. I’ll leave it up to the DOJ.

243 SpaceJesus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:08:05am

re: #239 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

read New York Times Co.

244 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:08:17am

re: #240 freetoken

Be careful there…

“Treason” is normally thought of as a citizen against their own nation.

“Espionage” and associated crimes can be committed by anyone.

OK, then go back to the Espionage Act.

245 SpaceJesus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:08:36am

re: #242 Gus 802

I don’t think they’d go for it.

246 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:08:43am

re: #240 freetoken

Be careful there…

“Treason” is normally thought of as a citizen against their own nation.

“Espionage” and associated crimes can be committed by anyone.

And 793 still works.

247 SpaceJesus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:09:10am

circle time

248 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:09:38am

re: #247 SpaceJesus

circle time

Drum circle or circular firing squad?

/

249 Kragar  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:12:48am

re: #248 Gus 802

Drum circle or circular firing squad?

/

Jerk.

250 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:13:26am

re: #249 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Jerk.

Why’s that?

[snif]

251 freetoken  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:13:56am

re: #250 Gus 802

I think he meant circle jerk.

252 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:14:30am

re: #234 Gus 802

Harold Hongju Koh

Views on targeted killing

Koh argued strongly in a March 2010 speech for the legality of targeted killing by aerial drone strikes in Pakistan, Yemen, and other countries included by the U.S. government as being within the scope of the war on terror. The State Department’s legal adviser said that “U.S. targeting practices, including lethal operations conducted with the use of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs)”, which the Obama administration has leaned on heavily in its efforts to eliminate al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups in Asia, “comply with all applicable law, including the laws of war”, citing the principles of distinction and proportionality. He said that the U.S. adheres to these standards, and takes great care in the “planning and execution to ensure that only legitimate objectives are targeted, and that collateral damage is kept to a minimum.”

He said the U.S. is in “an armed conflict with al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and the associated forces”, and therefore has the the lawful right to use force to protect its citizens “consistent with its inherent right to self-defense” under international law. Koh identified three elements that the U.S. considers when determining whether to authorize a specific targeted drone killing:

* Imminence of the threat;
* Sovereignty of other States involved; and
* Willingness and ability of those States to suppress the threat the target poses.

He also said that the drone strikes against al-Qaeda and its allies were lawful targeted killing, as part of the military action authorized by Congress, and not assassination, which is banned by executive order. Under domestic law, U.S. targeted killings against 9/11-related entities is authorized by the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists.

253 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:16:00am

re: #251 freetoken

I think he meant circle jerk.

Ah, that went over my head. Was mulling the thought of sleep. Sleep! I sleep but I wake up tired and aching all over. Woe is me.

254 freetoken  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:16:03am
MP3 Audio
255 freetoken  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:18:24am
MP3 Audio
256 freetoken  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:18:39am

That was for those of you who live where it snows.

257 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:28:26am

Hard to believe that only a few years ago the world was abuzz about the free market success story in Ireland. Seemed like the sky was the limit. Now look.

258 lazardo  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:43:11am

re: #257 Gus 802

Hard to believe that only a few years ago the world was abuzz about the free market success story in Ireland. Seemed like the sky was the limit. Now look.

I honestly wish our market here in “the P.I.” could be a little ‘free-er’ than it is now. If I recall there are provisions in our national Constitution that require at least 60% ownership by a Filipino citizen for any and all businesses here.

What the hell.

259 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:46:50am

I better get to sleep. Later all.

260 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:51:29am

Wow, quite a hoot reading all those implicit calls for assassination, and is there any armchair killer out there who would have guts to at least openly state what they want rather than writing silly code words? I wonder how many of them were outraged, outraged I tells ya about Litvinenko’s murder?

261 lazardo  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 3:06:50am

re: #260 Sergey Romanov

Wow, quite a hoot reading all those implicit calls for assassination, and is there any armchair killer out there who would have guts to at least openly state what they want rather than writing silly code words? I wonder how many of them were outraged, outraged I tells ya about Litvinenko’s murder?

Charles automatically deleted any post that outwardly calls for violence. So believe me when I say there are quite a few.

262 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 3:08:18am

re: #261 lazardo

Charles automatically deleted any post that outwardly calls for violence. So believe me when I say there are quite a few.

Labels change, people don’t. “Enemies of Russia!”, “Enemies of the US!”, “Off with their heads!”. Pfui Teufel.

263 lazardo  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 3:09:25am

re: #262 Sergey Romanov

Labels change, people don’t. “Enemies of Russia!”, “Enemies of the US!”, “Off with their heads!”. Pfui Teufel.

That’s why I didn’t speak up for updinging #9.

There, I said it.

264 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 3:11:23am

Well, I don’t agree with #9 on logical grounds. BTW, I fully expect “but but but we’re not like Russia, we’re a democracy, so unlike them we have an ethical right to assassinate our enemies” defense.

265 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 3:28:14am

re: #264 Sergey Romanov

Well, I don’t agree with #9 on logical grounds. BTW, I fully expect “but but but we’re not like Russia, we’re a democracy, so unlike them we have an ethical right to assassinate our enemies” defense.

Well, I certainly don’t want the US to kill this man.
That would be wrong.
I don’t believe there is anything under the law to charge him with.
We’ll have to just learn how to keep our freaking secrets better.

266 Kragar  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 3:30:55am

re: #265 Varek Raith

Well, I certainly don’t want the US to kill this man.
That would be wrong.
I don’t believe there is anything under the law to charge him with.
We’ll have to just learn how to keep our freaking secrets better.

He might not have done anything wrong, but the people who provided the info sure as hell have.

267 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 3:39:48am

re: #265 Varek Raith

Well, I certainly don’t want the US to kill this man.
That would be wrong.
I don’t believe there is anything under the law to charge him with.
We’ll have to just learn how to keep our freaking secrets better.

Xactly.

If there needs to be an assassination, why don’t we (humanity) save it for the likes of Hitler or Stalin? If Assange is guilty of anything - put out an international order for arrest (e.g. for complicity in theft) - Swedes didn’t have a problem doing that.

Better yet, if you think that Assange is somehow endangering lives and are so concerned about it, start prosecuting those who started the needless war in Iraq and who are at least partially responsible for all the victims of this war, prosecute all the enemies of mankind who ordered and engaged in torture - be consistent.

268 Typhaeon  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 3:45:38am

I am pretty firmly to the left. That having been said, I think all governments post-9/11 have earned an organization like WikiLeaks through the obsessive overclassification of information in the name of a hypersensitive, reactive security state.

I fully support Mr. Assange’s organization and ethos because I am loyal to humanity as a species before a particular in-group of humans I happen to have been born in the same nation as. Wikileaks is the only organization with the moral courage to publish a video showing US troops killing both journalists and the first responders on the scene; how many decades would it have taken us to find out about such outrageous conduct by that helicopter crew and command if it weren’t leaked in the first place?

Our society is swollen, fatted with sacred cows whose names journalists dare not speak for fear of losing “access”. Anyone who even dares substantively oppose the high holies of our day and age deserves my respect.

Knee-jerk, reactionary jingoism from someone attempting to flaunt his authority as a Wikipedia co-founder to give his empty appeals weight has no traffick with me.

269 Velvet Elvis  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 3:52:34am

I appreciate what wikileaks was supposed to be when it started but not what it’s become. There’s a need for a whisleblower’s site where true wrongs can be publicly exposed..

What it’s become is a site where all classified information can be leaked, regardless of if there’s anything wrong with it or not, based on the idea that anything classified is wrong. That’s just fucked up.

270 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 3:56:03am

re: #269 Conservative Moonbat

I appreciate what wikileaks was supposed to be when it started but not what it’s become. There’s a need for a whisleblower’s site where true wrongs can be publicly exposed..

What it’s become is a site where all classified information can be leaked, regardless of if there’s anything wrong with it or not, based on the idea that anything classified is wrong. That’s just fucked up.

Gotta mostly agree. I will be lying if I say that I’m not interested in peeking at whatever they’re putting out, but as I wrote elsewhere, I would much prefer if the leaks were limited to the info about human rights violations, war crimes and such.

271 lazardo  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 4:02:02am

re: #270 Sergey Romanov

Gotta mostly agree. I will be lying if I say that I’m not interested in peeking at whatever they’re putting out, but as I wrote elsewhere, I would much prefer if the leaks were limited to the info about human rights violations, war crimes and such.

Considering how the United States “outsources” these sort of things to other countries, that would probably make the diplomatic communiques fall into that category as well.

272 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 4:04:53am

re: #271 lazardo

Considering how the United States “outsources” these sort of things to other countries, that would probably make the diplomatic communiques fall into that category as well.

IF there are such cables - they’re fair game, but IIUC this latest release won’t be about it. As funny as it would be to read some US official dissing some British figure, I think such info should stay classified for at least a couple decades (and yes, ultimately it should be published by the StaDep itself). Just as a matter of principle.

273 lazardo  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 4:13:01am

re: #272 Sergey Romanov

About the only thing I’m actually concerned about with the leak is what the US may have been doing with dissidents in countries where they really ARE oppressed. If the leak is as big as he says it is, then I’m really hoping that it redacts those names, and as Gus mentioned earlier, that it hasn’t already reached the hands of those regimes through their sale.

274 researchok  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 4:13:17am

Morning, all.

275 rwdflynavy  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 4:17:48am

Good Morning Lizards.

I think it is time for us to take diplomatic action toward Sweden. This ass-clown is publishing our classified material in violation of US law. We need to start holding Sweden accountable. If we generate enough bad press towards Sweden aiding and abetting espionage against the United States, they may boot this guy out and give us a chance to put him in prison.

276 researchok  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 4:20:26am

re: #275 rwdflynavy

Good Morning Lizards.

I think it is time for us to take diplomatic action toward Sweden. This ass-clown is publishing our classified material in violation of US law. We need to start holding Sweden accountable. If we generate enough bad press towards Sweden aiding and abetting espionage against the United States, they may boot this guy out and give us a chance to put him in prison.

Might I suggest that the bills for all funerals that come about as a result of these leaks be forwarded to those who support the release of those document.

While we’re at it, why not publish their names and addresses as well. So their survivors might know where to address their complaints.

277 Velvet Elvis  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 4:23:08am

re: #275 rwdflynavy

Good Morning Lizards.

I think it is time for us to take diplomatic action toward Sweden. This ass-clown is publishing our classified material in violation of US law. We need to start holding Sweden accountable. If we generate enough bad press towards Sweden aiding and abetting espionage against the United States, they may boot this guy out and give us a chance to put him in prison.

He’s Australian. The servers are presently hosted by the Swedish parliament by the request of some Pirate Party members who managed to get elected.

278 rwdflynavy  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 4:27:56am

re: #277 Conservative Moonbat

He’s Australian. The servers are presently hosted by the Swedish parliament by the request of some Pirate Party members who managed to get elected.

Copy all. Sweden is aiding and abetting a foreign agent engaged in espionage against the United States.

279 Velvet Elvis  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 4:29:22am

re: #278 rwdflynavy

Copy all. Sweden is aiding and abetting a foreign agent engaged in espionage against the United States.

They also host The Pirate Bay

280 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 4:46:46am

re: #268 Typhaeon

What does it mean to have loyalty to humanity as a species?

And in what way does leaking diplomatic cables serve that loyalty?

281 rwdflynavy  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 4:55:23am

re: #280 Obdicut

What does it mean to have loyalty to humanity as a species?

And in what way does leaking diplomatic cables serve that loyalty?

His/her post is chock-full of dog-whistle calls for revolution against the “fat, bloated governments”.

282 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 4:58:14am

Russian Duma has recognized the Katyn massacre as Stalin’s crime. Finally. Next issue: whether the Earth revolves around the Sun or vice versa.

[Link: english.ruvr.ru…]

283 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 4:59:15am

re: #282 Sergey Romanov

I didn’t realize they hadn’t recognized that yet. Finally. Congrats to all the historians who put in the hard work in bringing facts to light.

284 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 5:00:42am

re: #282 Sergey Romanov

Russian Duma has recognized the Katyn massacre as Stalin’s crime. Finally. Next issue: whether the Earth revolves around the Sun or vice versa.

[Link: english.ruvr.ru…]

(Needless to say, Stalinist CPRF voted against. I think that just as prohibition on Nazi propaganda is not anti-democratic in Germany, a prohibition on Stalinist agitprop would not be anti-democratic in Russia.)

285 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 5:03:54am

re: #283 Obdicut

I didn’t realize they hadn’t recognized that yet. Finally. Congrats to all the historians who put in the hard work in bringing facts to light.

Strictly speaking, Gorbachev’s govt officially recognized it as a crime of “stalinism”, and of Beria and his henchmen, Yeltsin officially apologized while in Poland once (he even kneed before a memorial), this spring, after the tragedy, both Putin and Medvedev were very explicit about it being the crime of Stalin’s regime. So Duma was the “last bastion”, so to say.

286 wiffersnapper  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 5:06:16am

Great stuff by Larry Sanger. Makes me want to donate to wikipedia if I weren’t a broke grad student. So he gets a real life upding!

287 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 5:06:38am

That said, Russia is a country with an unpredictable past, as well as future, so nobody knows what will happen with the Katyn issue when the current crop of “dear leaders” leaves the stage. The Katyn denial movement has been gaining ground in recent years.

288 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 5:16:31am

I decided to see how the American Katyn-denier Prof. Grover Furr is doing. At his site, to which I will not link, he has an announcement of a new book in Russian. Yeah, he’s been publishing pro-Stalin books here, thus trying to contribute to further degradation of society. The first is “Shadows of the XXth Congress, or anti-Stalin treachery” wherein he purports to debunk Khrushchev’s famous anti-Stalin report. The new one is called “1937. Stalin’s justice. Not subject to appeal!”. He is the kind of leftie that makes me almost sympathetic to ole’ Joe McC.

289 lazardo  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 5:17:56am

re: #288 Sergey Romanov

Is it wrong that I was so tempted to crack a “GLORIOUS MOTHERLAND!!!111” joke then?

/all caps for emphasis

290 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 5:20:44am

re: #289 lazardo

Is it wrong that I was so tempted to crack a “GLORIOUS MOTHERLAND!!!111” joke then?

/all caps for emphasis

I don’t know this joke, but “GLORIOUS MOTHERLAND!!!111” is the kind of thing Furr would write, he is that primitive. I fisked him here.

291 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 5:29:51am

Speaking of Stalin…

Youtube Video
292 lazardo  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 5:35:29am

re: #290 Sergey Romanov

That’s a very fascinating read. Goes to show you denialists come in all different kinds of colors but still smell of the same bullshit.

293 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 5:36:24am

re: #291 Varek Raith

Yeah, I know that one :-)

294 freetoken  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 5:44:41am

re: #268 Typhaeon

… I am loyal to humanity as a species before a particular in-group of humans I happen to have been born in the same nation as. …

That’s …. weird.

It may sound good to you, but it really is weird.

And, altruism is all too often spoken of in the hypothetical.

295 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 6:02:00am

Archbishop Feofan of Stavropol and Vladikavkaz sez WUT?

[Link: www.rosbalt.ru…]

Наша с вами главная задача – сделать нашу жизнь, особенно на Кавказе такой, о которой мечтают и воплощают в жизнь руководство России – Дмитрий Медведев, Владимир Путин и Президент ЧР Рамзан Кадыров.

Our main task is to make our life - especially in Caucasus - to be in accordance with what is dreamed of and accomplished by the leaders of Russia - Dmitry Medvedev, Vladimir Putin and ChR President Ramzan Kadyrov

296 laZardo  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 6:10:54am

re: #295 Sergey Romanov

Archbishop Feofan of Stavropol and Vladikavkaz sez WUT?

[Link: www.rosbalt.ru…]

I had to look up that last guy. WHAT THE HELL.

297 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 6:19:07am

re: #295 Sergey Romanov

Archbishop Feofan of Stavropol and Vladikavkaz sez WUT?

[Link: www.rosbalt.ru…]

Wow…

298 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 6:20:16am

re: #297 Varek Raith

Wow…

Err, I didn’t mean that in a disparaging way.

299 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 6:20:51am

re: #298 Varek Raith

Err, I didn’t mean that in a disparaging way.

Towards Sergey Romanov.

Good grief, Varek!
Need moar coffee!

300 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 6:32:32am

re: #296 laZardo

I had to look up that last guy. WHAT THE HELL.

LOL, you’ve seen nothing yet.

Here’s the official video of interrogation of the failed assassin of Hero of Russian Federation (HoRF) Isa Yamadayev:

[Link: www.mk.ru…]

The killer openly states that the hit was ordered by HoRF Kadyrov and describes it all in detail. Later he was found guilty of an attempted assassination ordered by … unknown persons.

(For some context: Isa’s brother Sulim Yamadayev, also a HoRF, was murdered in Dubai. Dubai court sentenced Kadyrov’s horse-groom, Iranian citizen Mahdi Lornia for being an accomplice, while Adam Delimkhanov, one of the closes people to Kadyrov and a Russian deputy, was named the organizer of the assassination by the Dubai police. Yet another bro, Ruslan Yamadaev, also a HoRF, was shot in Moscow in 2008. Later it was established that he was murdered by another Chechen.)

But all is well that ends well. HoRF Isa Yamadayev has recently reconciled with HoRF Ramzan Kadyrov and will be begging the Dubai court to set Kadyrov’s groom free.

That’s justice in Russia and its Heroes for you.

301 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 6:34:38am

re: #300 Sergey Romanov

The link didn’t convert, here it is:

[Link: www.mk.ru…]

302 Lidane  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 6:35:43am

re: #142 Gus 802

THE United States has rejected talks with WikiLeaks over its planned release of confidential US documents.

Sounds to me like the government is refusing to meet with an extortionist. Good for them.

I’m all for more transparency in government, but not at the expense of real lives that are put in danger, or real intel that needs to be gathered from some less than savory places. There’s a difference between wanting to provide more information for the American people, and giving people who want to hurt us the ammo they need to use against us.

303 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 6:42:29am

re: #302 Lidane

Sounds like Catch-22. Here’s what JA allegedly tries to accomplish:

US officials said Assange had sent a letter to the Department of State on Friday, in which he tried to address US concerns that WikiLeaks’ planned release of classified documents placed individual persons at risk.

In his letter, Assange said he wanted information regarding individuals who might be “at significant risk of harm” because of WikiLeaks’ actions, the officials said.

They know that he will release the documents no matter what. So they should cooperate to reduce the alleged harm to individual persons. They can’t refuse to do it and at the same time blame JA for risking the lives. Sure, if there is any risk, JA will be responsible - but these officials (and this goes to the very top) will be responsible too, even though not equally so.

304 Lidane  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 6:54:12am

re: #303 Sergey Romanov

I think my biggest issue with WikiLeaks is something mentioned upthread— there seems to be no distinction between classified information and evidence of things that should be brought to light, like what happened at Abu Ghraib. It seems like WikiLeaks is just throwing everything they can at the wall and hoping that something will stick, regardless of who gets hurt in the process. That’s wrong. And it puts real people in the line of fire because of it.

I’m of the mind that they shouldn’t cooperate with him at all. He’s basically exposing our entire foreign policy to the world without respect to the very real harm he’s causing, both to the US and its allies, and the innocent people he’s putting in danger.

305 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 6:58:44am

re: #304 Lidane

That’s my issue with it too.

But by not cooperating with him on principle (and thus not willing to reduce the alleged risk to other people) they become like what they claim he is, i.e. a person who puts others at risk because of some principle. Note that it is they who alleged that there is a risk involved, yet at the very same time they refuse to help him redact the sensitive documents. Yeah, agreeing would put them in a shitty position. A very shitty one. But not agreeing means that they don’t even try to decrease the alleged risk.

306 Lidane  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 7:06:54am

re: #305 Sergey Romanov

I get what you’re saying, but at the same time, I think cooperation would give him even more information that the government doesn’t want released. If they start telling him who specifically is at greater risk and who isn’t, then those people could become further targets of having more documents exposed, and the intel they’re gathering would be totally compromised.

The whole thing is a massive clusterfuck. I understand the stated motives behind WikiLeaks, and might have sympathized with them at one point, but it’s all being carried out so recklessly that it’s going to cause real harm.

307 laZardo  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 7:13:42am

Gotta head to bed.

All I’m gonna say is that it shouldn’t have come to this.

308 HoosierHoops  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 7:14:26am

re: #307 laZardo

Gotta head to bed.

All I’m gonna say is that it shouldn’t have come to this.

Good night..How is your pops doing?

309 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 7:15:42am

re: #306 Lidane

That’s on the assumption that this is just a rabidly and specifically anti-American intelligence operation, rather than an opportunistic (or idealistic, sometimes they’re hard to distinguish) dump. Anyways, that would’ve been possible if there is still a mole. Is this latest dump Manning’s doing, or is everything kept top secret?

310 JeffFX  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 7:16:52am

re: #306 Lidane

I understand the stated motives behind WikiLeaks, and might have sympathized with them at one point, but it’s all being carried out so recklessly that it’s going to cause real harm.

This is the crux of it for me. Assange has already shown himself to be irresponsible with his releases. He may have meant well at one time, but he’s in way over his head, and has already caused harm.

311 Lidane  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 7:22:34am

re: #309 Sergey Romanov

Unlike some folks here, I don’t think it’s specifically anti-American, but rather anti-secrecy. There is an idealistic and naive belief at work that releasing everything will improve relations around the world by exposing all these secrets and goings on. It’s a belief in Truth over pragmatism, political reality, and common sense.

You can’t just dump all this classified information and expect things to magically get better. It doesn’t work that way.

312 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 7:23:14am

re: #311 Lidane

Fully agreed.

313 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 7:45:19am

From a recent WL tweet:

Now is a good time to download some “history insurance” [Link: thepiratebay.org…]
5:04 PM Nov 25th via web

Hmmm.

314 darthstar  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 7:46:33am

The wikileaks story depresses the hell out of me. But this story pisses me right the fuck off.

FAIRHOPE, Ala. (AP) — A state senator’s tractor company received more than half of the $1.15 million in BP grant money that went to the coastal town of Fairhope after the Gulf oil spill.

The Press-Register of Mobile reports that Pittman Tractor Co. received $639,000 to help deploy oil-blocking boom around Fairhope. The company is owned by Republican state Sen. Trip Pittman of Montrose.

We need to be nicer to BP.

315 laZardo  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 7:47:33am

re: #308 HoosierHoops

Good night..How is your pops doing?

He’s doing fine. Should be home for a few days for Christmas and then home proper in January-February.

re: #311 Lidane

Unlike some folks here, I don’t think it’s specifically anti-American, but rather anti-secrecy. There is an idealistic and naive belief at work that releasing everything will improve relations around the world by exposing all these secrets and goings on. It’s a belief in Truth over pragmatism, political reality, and common sense.

You can’t just dump all this classified information and expect things to magically get better. It doesn’t work that way.

It’s a painful process, I agree. At this point, it seems more than necessary though…

316 mikec6666  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 8:00:03am

What he’s doing is nihilistic, not noble. He’s taking a burn the place down attitude, which frankly, will harm us as a country. He’s also providing ammunition to those who would limit free speech on the Internets. And he’s a dick.

317 kirkspencer  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 8:02:43am

re: #315 laZardo

re: #311 Lidane

re: #311 Lidane

Unlike some folks here, I don’t think it’s specifically anti-American, but rather anti-secrecy. There is an idealistic and naive belief at work that releasing everything will improve relations around the world by exposing all these secrets and goings on. It’s a belief in Truth over pragmatism, political reality, and common sense.

You can’t just dump all this classified information and expect things to magically get better. It doesn’t work that way.

It’s a painful process, I agree. At this point, it seems more than necessary though…

I find myself torn as well.

Not least is the fact that people (not just in the US) overclassify, then resist review and release.

One of the things that adds more mud to this whole mess is the outcome of the last infodump from wikileaks. Despite all the warnings and angst, when Secretary Gates did a followup report there had been zero deaths of the people whose names were not redacted. Since the info was several years out of date no networks were compromised. This wasn’t known in advance, of course - as noted above several wikileak editors quit because they thought insufficient redaction had been done - but it is the fact on the ground after the event.

As a consequence I do not know which side of this I stand upon - as though there are only two sides, anyway.

318 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 8:05:38am

re: #317 kirkspencer

Xactly. The Pentagon cried “Wolf!” with their “WL has blood on its hands” bullshit, which makes it all the harder to take Koh’s dire predictions seriously, even if they are.

319 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 8:26:36am

After almost a month of TSA hysteria the wingnuts just move on to the next outrageous outrage. It’s all over.

320 Political Atheist  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 8:37:41am

re: #309 Sergey Romanov

You bring up a very interesting possibility. Maybe Wiki-leaks is how a foreign intel service can cause the west a lot of trouble. Maybe Julian is a self important dupe. A dupe so thick his own staff and co founder left him behind with contempt.

321 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 8:40:37am

re: #264 Sergey Romanov

Well, I don’t agree with #9 on logical grounds. BTW, I fully expect “but but but we’re not like Russia, we’re a democracy, so unlike them we have an ethical right to assassinate our enemies” defense.

I don’t make that argument at all. And I wish I could make mine, but reading through this thread took too long and now I have to leave for the day.

[grumble]

323 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 8:44:36am

re: #320 Rightwingconspirator

Could be anything, really.

324 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 8:49:15am

re: #318 Sergey Romanov

Xactly. The Pentagon cried “Wolf!” with their “WL has blood on its hands” bullshit, which makes it all the harder to take Koh’s dire predictions seriously, even if they are.

Yes. Err on the side of Assagne and the leaking of classified (secret) documents. Try not to separate the Pentagon too far from the White House though. We are talking about Obama’s Pentagon now and US Chief of Staff Admiral Mullen, Harold Koh, legal advisor with the State Department and Obama appointee, the president himself, and so on.

325 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 8:50:39am

re: #324 Gus 802

Yes. Err on the side of Assagne and the leaking of classified (secret) documents. Try not to separate the Pentagon too far from the White House though. We are talking about Obama’s Pentagon now and US Chief of Staff Admiral Mullen, Harold Koh, legal advisor with the State Department and Obama appointee, the president himself, and so on.

And Koh didn’t decide to fire off this letter to Assagne on his own. He would have done so under orders from the White House.

326 Political Atheist  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 8:53:14am

re: #318 Sergey Romanov

Given the nature of the release, I think that was a perfectly reasonable worry. And I’m not at all sure no deaths were caused. Gates investigation could not confirm any. Then, the more is released the more damage.

As for Julian and the charges, well when acting like Roman, run like a Polanski.

327 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 8:56:35am

re: #324 Gus 802

Yes, I keep this in mind all the time, and I meant specifically that when I wrote #303. Which doesn’t make me much less of an Obama supporter, BTW. Such a way of dealing with this was, unfortunately, not unexpected - a simple way to elicit the reaction evident in many comments here and elsewhere. I guess they gotta do what they gotta do.

328 Political Atheist  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 8:58:08am

re: #322 Killgore Trout

Former Republican Sen. Warns GOP May ‘Have Gone So Far Overboard That We Are Beyond Redemption’

And what I call the UnCivil War© for the GOP begins to heat up.

329 Kronocide  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:02:52am

re: #322 Killgore Trout

Former Republican Sen. Warns GOP May ‘Have Gone So Far Overboard That We Are Beyond Redemption’

And so goes the hypocrisy of ‘the establishment aren’t doing what the people want.’ You have another political lobby leveraging what it wants by any means possible and claiming ‘it’s what the people want.’

Let them ruin it, destroy it. Then we can maybe start over.

330 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:03:27am

re: #328 Rightwingconspirator

And what I call the UnCivil War© for the GOP begins to heat up.

Unfortunately he’s a lone voice pissing in the wind.

331 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:04:21am

Fire Reported At Ore. Islamic Center; No Injuries

Authorities say a fire has been reported at an Islamic center near Oregon State University in Corvallis. No injuries have been reported.

Authorities in Corvallis told The Oregonian they are investigating the fire at the Salman Alfarisi Islamic Center. They have not said how it started.

It was reported at 2:15 a.m. Sunday. Authorities say it was contained to one room.

The fire erupted two days after a Somali-born teenager and former OSU student was arrested and charged with attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction.

332 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:04:35am

re: #326 Rightwingconspirator

Given the nature of the release, I think that was a perfectly reasonable worry. And I’m not at all sure no deaths were caused. Gates investigation could not confirm any. Then, the more is released the more damage.

As for Julian and the charges, well when acting like Roman, run like a Polanski.

I don’t really know the nature of the release, so I can’t comment one way or another. I guess certain diplomatic cables can endanger, say, dissidents. Which is why the US should cooperate with JA to reduce such risks.

My point was, though, that WL was accused of already having blood on their hands in regard to the previous releases. True, we don’t know if anybody was hurt. Which is exactly the point. This goes beyond “it might [have] hurt someone”. Thus skepticism in current predictions.

333 prairiefire  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:05:13am

Senator Danforth is a good man. Unfortunately, he is branded as a RINO.

334 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:06:09am

British officials fear WikiLeaks will disrupt Iran policy

British officials fear that confidential WikiLeaks cables will reveal details of secret operation to disrupt Iranian smuggling of nuclear materials through the Gulf and Turkey.
335 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:06:09am

re: #328 Rightwingconspirator

And what I call the UnCivil War© for the GOP begins to heat up.

Unfortunately, the war is over, and the kooks won a decisive victory.

336 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:06:21am

re: #332 Sergey Romanov

I don’t really know the nature of the release, so I can’t comment one way or another. I guess certain diplomatic cables can endanger, say, dissidents. Which is why the US should cooperate with JA to reduce such risks.

My point was, though, that WL was accused of already having blood on their hands in regard to the previous releases. True, we don’t know if anybody was hurt. Which is exactly the point. This goes beyond “it might [have] hurt someone”. Thus skepticism in current predictions.

The US should not negotiate with Julian Assange under any circumstances.

337 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:07:14am

re: #336 Gus 802

Thank you for your opinion.

338 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:07:53am

re: #337 Sergey Romanov

Thank you for your opinion.

You are welcome. It’s one I share with Obama’s State Department.

339 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:09:11am

re: #338 Gus 802

I don’t happen to think that Obama’s StaDep is infallible. As for why they should - I’ve already made that argument above, so I won’t rehash it.

340 Political Atheist  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:09:25am

re: #330 Killgore Trout

One voice still there. And a likely retiree. But as I regard this phenomena I consider the flight of many like myself from the GOP to indy status as proverbial shots fired. Then we do have the Tea Party / Old School GOP fight that Sarah exhibited with her attack on the Bushes, the “blue blood” tweet.

Karl Rove has expressed his doubts about Sarah again lately. This could be the end of the GOP or a reformation. Unscathed is no longer a possibility. This internecine fight will really heat us for the primary season.

341 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:09:36am

About that right wing support for Israel….
Paul to AIPAC: I Disagree on Aid to Israel

Tea Party!

342 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:10:30am

re: #341 Killgore Trout

About that right wing support for Israel…
Paul to AIPAC: I Disagree on Aid to Israel

Tea Party!

I would be really surprised if Ron Paul’s son thought any different.

343 HoosierHoops  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:10:47am

The Little green football prayer list

On this day in History..
On Nov. 28, 1943, President Roosevelt, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and Soviet leader Josef Stalin met in Tehran during World War II.

Thank you Lord for all the prayers answered every Sunday Morning:
We come from every background at LGF and every opinion About Religion and about you God..
But we all agree to extend well wishes, Prayers and healing to our fellow lizards…

Buck: Father has a tumor and has little time left 2-3 months.. Comfort his family and welcome him in your arms. At this moment bring them close together to say the goodbyes of the heart…The forever whispers from the soul.. The final touch of the spirit…Speak a special word to Buck to share with his father.
Thanos: Grant healing and strength to our dear friend
Obdicut: My friend Pam, who’s ovarian cancer has returned. She’s going into chemo again. And she believes in the power of prayer.
Dark_Falcon: His Mother had a stroke..She is getting better.. Please heal her Lord
Jadespring: Dear Lord bring healing to a Sister.. Bring grace and strength to the Family.
We pray for your tender mercies
Wlewisiii: If you would pray as appropriate to your beliefs for John Freuh, his step-mother, my sister Elisabeth & his father Rick, I’d appreciate it.
Dear Lord..We ask you this day you bring healing and grace to SFZ’s Father and Mother-in-law..
Help her in the Job search and finding her a new Career. .
We know your love brings healing and life.
Ausador: Parents
Irenicum: Lord heal this family and bring comfort to them..
Guanxi88: Best wishes and lizard mojo to my wife’s best friend. her father committed suicide not two weeks after her mother succumbed to cancer.
Reine: Health and Family.. Lord we ask you grant Reine’s Daughter a Special blessing..Look after her and grant grace.
gregb - 4 year old son who suffered a head injury last Friday and spent the
weekend in the ICU with some lingering effects all week.Jadespring: Our prayers go out to your sister…May she be healed
lurking faith… prayers for an aunt
Beekiller: Sister has been diagnosed with Cancer…We pray for a speedy recovery
FBV: Add my friend Jeff. Recently diagnosed with ALS. His family will watch him fade and die over the next three to five years. Wife and two kids (kids are young adults).
Veggie Update: For the prayer list, my daughter’s boyfriend is going to be moved out of intensive care and into rehab (we hope!) next week… beginning of a long journey.
I want to add thanksgiving that they will be able to do his rehab locally. There was talk that he was going to be moved three to five hours away from his family.
Update: He moved his feet! This will be a long journey for the boy..Walk with him Lord
Prairiefire: Health for Family and friends
Mcspiff: if you could add my uncle to the list. He went in for surgery today and it didn’t go so well. Extra organs had to come out, etc. Still just hearing bits and pieces now. But any prayers would be greatly appreciated.
Alouette’ Dear Father..His name in Hebrew is Pinhas ben Rivka. , and he is in congestive heart failure. He is 91 years old, and a WW2 Pacific vet.
Reloadingisnotahobby: Could you add my parents?
They’re in their 80’s and slipping in to ALZ…Simultaneously
HoosierHoops: Bring peace and strength to Joe and his family
Thank you Lord..
Amen

344 prairiefire  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:11:31am

re: #340 Rightwingconspirator

Senator Danforth is retired.

345 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:11:59am

re: #342 Sergey Romanov

I would be really surprised if Ron Paul’s son thought any different.

Exactly

The Pauls have always been isolationists
Support for Israel remains strong in the Repubs/ GOP/ Tea Party

Paul is a lone (righty) wolf on this

346 Kronocide  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:12:50am

re: #268 Typhaeon

I am pretty firmly to the left. That having been said, I think all governments post-9/11 have earned an organization like WikiLeaks through the obsessive overclassification of information in the name of a hypersensitive, reactive security state.

I fully support Mr. Assange’s organization and ethos because I am loyal to humanity as a species before a particular in-group of humans I happen to have been born in the same nation as. Wikileaks is the only organization with the moral courage to publish a video showing US troops killing both journalists and the first responders on the scene; how many decades would it have taken us to find out about such outrageous conduct by that helicopter crew and command if it weren’t leaked in the first place?

Our society is swollen, fatted with sacred cows whose names journalists dare not speak for fear of losing “access”. Anyone who even dares substantively oppose the high holies of our day and age deserves my respect.

Knee-jerk, reactionary jingoism from someone attempting to flaunt his authority as a Wikipedia co-founder to give his empty appeals weight has no traffick with me.

You got taken in by that “Collateral Damage” propaganda put out by Assange?

‘High holies’ seem to get taken down all the time by real journalists who don’t risk the lives our troops or on the ground informants in theater, or make a mess of the intelligence environment.

347 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:14:12am

re: #345 sattv4u2

Isolationism, yes, but I happen to suspect that paleocons just have other attitudes towards both Jews and Israel. E.g. Buchanan.

348 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:14:23am

re: #343 HoosierHoops

Thanks HOOPS

Update on my mom

She’s now in a rehab facility trying to gain her motor skills back. There is now no hope that her kidneys will function by themselves again,. so she’ll be on dialysis 3-4 times a week for the rest of her life

349 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:14:34am

re: #340 Rightwingconspirator

The momentum is still with the Tea Party nuts. The midterm elections were a big win for Rand Paul, Allen West, etc. The Republican base is happy to throw away republican seats in Nevada and Delaware by nominating extremist nuts. I don’t know when that trend is going to change.

350 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:15:26am

re: #347 Sergey Romanov

Isolationism, yes, but I happen to suspect that paleocons just have other attitudes towards both Jews and Israel. E.g. Buchanan.

There are some that do, but that sentiment is dear to the left

351 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:17:21am

re: #350 sattv4u2

There are some that do, but that sentiment is dear to the left

Image: debip7aelewyrpwtxbmerq.gif

352 Gus  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:17:45am

re: #351 Gus 802

Image: debip7aelewyrpwtxbmerq.gif

Source: [Link: www.gallup.com…]

353 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:18:27am

re: #350 sattv4u2

One doesn’t exclude another. But I have this impression, which may be wrong, mind you, that the left sometimes has a problem with Israel as a state, whereas paleocons sometimes have a problem with Israel because of Jews.

354 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:18:43am

re: #351 Gus 802

thanks

355 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:21:52am

A little advice fro your old Uncle Satty

When coming off a ladder with a paint bucket in your hand, make sure the dogs aren’t around. My two met me at the foot of the ladder thinking I had brought them a bucket of treats!

Getting paint off of Einsteins and McDuffs heads is now in my future!

356 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:24:06am

re: #351 Gus 802

Image: debip7aelewyrpwtxbmerq.gif

It’s not about state v. (quasi-)state, it’s about people v. people, which is a different metric. Not to mention that we speak of paleocons, who are not mentioned here.

357 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:26:58am

re: #356 Sergey Romanov

It’s not about state v. (quasi-)state, it’s about people v. people, which is a different metric. Not to mention that we speak of paleocons, who are not mentioned here.

I would think they would fall into the “Republican” category, bringing that percentage down some, just as “Blue Dog Dems” aren’t mentioned there which brings the “Democrat” number up!

358 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:34:26am

re: #357 sattv4u2

I would think they would fall into the “Republican” category, bringing that percentage down some, just as “Blue Dog Dems” aren’t mentioned there which brings the “Democrat” number up!

Could be, though, of course, your claim that this sentiment is somehow “dear to the left” (although it’s certainly dear to some on the left) is still false, and is certainly not confirmed by the poll. As I pointed out, the poll uses the metric irrelevant to this discussion. E.g. I support the state of Israel more than the quasi-state of Palestinian Authority, but I sympathize with the peoples of both states equally.

359 RobocopNixon  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:43:18am

I’d like to point out that at least someone is trying to do something about this, even if it won’t last. Wikileaks is DDos: [Link: twitter.com…]

360 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:47:53am

By the way, all the ire has been directed at WL, but here’s their latest tweet:

El Pais, Le Monde, Speigel, Guardian & NYT will publish many US embassy cables tonight, even if WikiLeaks goes down

Shouldn’t these accomplices be taken out and spend the rest of their lives in Supermax?///

361 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:48:51am

re: #360 Sergey Romanov

The NYT, I mean.

362 lostlakehiker  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:51:06am

re: #108 golgoth

Waterboarding is torture.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

[Link: www.nationalreview.com…]

Take what you want about popularity of it against terrorists, when other countries do it against dissidents or US soldiers we will have no right to complain because traitors like Thiessen think it isn’t torture.

If I were to be captured, waterboarding would be the least of my worries. Not that it’s a prospect to fill the heart with joy, but there’s worse. There’s crippling injuries. Bones broken repeatedly, shoulder joints destroyed—-as with McCain. There’s worse still. And to top it off, or perhaps I should say to lop it off, there’s beheading.

Language has a tendency to take words that used to be full of import, and apply them to successively smaller realities. Take, for example, “weapons of mass destruction”. Our Somali friend who wanted to build and detonate a car bomb at a Christmas tree lighting is charged with attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction.

What did the word mean originally? It was a synonym for nuclear weapon. But, oh, perhaps we should include weaponized applications of pathogens? An epidemic of plague could have as much effect as a nuke, right? And in fact, did: the Japanese in WW2 used this disease against China.

What about poison gas? A major gassing of a big city might kill as many people as a nuke. Or nearly as many.

What about massed conventional bombing? The firestorms in various Japanese cities, and Hamburg, and Dresden, they ought to be included, right?

Well, if many bombs, collectively, count as a weapon of mass destruction, then how many does it take? Evidently, from the charges, just one will do.

By that same logic of inflating words and diluting the semantic content, waterboarding belongs to the same category of human rights abuses as the rack, the wheel, tiger cages, and drawing and quartering.

Yes, it’s torture. And yes, one single car bomb is a weapon of mass destruction.

363 William of Orange  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:52:03am

|If Assange released documents that fully pardon the Climate scientists, that would at least be something useful…

364 William of Orange  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:52:42am

Grammar mistake: Pardon should be Vindicate.

365 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 9:58:02am

re: #362 lostlakehiker

“If I were to be captured, waterboarding would be the least of my worries.”

Not while you would be tortured by water. And given the Inquisition’s use of practically the same method, the word “torture” applied originally. The two righties who tried it out on themselves couldn’t last even a short time and immediately agreed it’s torture. Torture is not defined by any lasting effects, only by what it does at the moment of application. What happens in many Russian police stations is torture, even though it doesn’t leave any traces - they’re clever that way. What happened to the American soldiers waterboarded by the Japanese was torture. Not barely torture. Not minimum torture. Torture to the complete extent of the term.

366 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 10:04:43am

re: #257 Gus 802

Hard to believe that only a few years ago the world was abuzz about the free market success story in Ireland. Seemed like the sky was the limit. Now look.

Yeah. The Celtic Tiger story didn’t seem to last very long.

367 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 10:08:05am

re: #287 Sergey Romanov

That said, Russia is a country with an unpredictable past, as well as future, so nobody knows what will happen with the Katyn issue when the current crop of “dear leaders” leaves the stage. The Katyn denial movement has been gaining ground in recent years.

If you can convince Pam Geller that the victims were Muslims, she’ll help.

No sarc.

368 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 10:09:18am

re: #367 SanFranciscoZionist

If you can convince Pam Geller that the victims were Muslims, she’ll help.

No sarc.

Brilliant idea akshully. Bringing in Pam discredits any movement.

369 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 10:11:50am

re: #333 prairiefire

Senator Danforth is a good man. Unfortunately, he is branded as a RINO.

Increasingly, those things go together.

370 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 10:12:21am

re: #343 HoosierHoops

Amen.

Thanks Hoops, as always.

371 Opal  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 10:16:52am

re: #326 Rightwingconspirator

“Given the nature of the release, I think that was a perfectly reasonable worry. And I’m not at all sure no deaths were caused. Gates investigation could not confirm any. Then, the more is released the more damage.”

You’re correct that it is/was reasonable to worry. We will never know about the deaths of our “assets” that may have been inadvertently revealed. If you remember the outing of CIA agent, Valerie Plame, there was a strong pushback on behalf of Bush administration supporters that the loss of her covert status was inconsequential. We don’t know that, because we don’t know who her contacts and assets were. Maybe some were killed or had to flee for their lives. Maybe whole programs (of our “enemies”) were changed based upon the assumption that the US was privy to those programs. We just don’t know. We can assume, however, that harm to her program was done and that there was some chilling effect for those who would help our future efforts. The idea that a presidential administration would knowingly or willingly out a covert agent was a new one. Now that we know that it could happen (because it did happen) would anybody want to help covert CIA agents? The same can now be said for any assets the US has working with our embassy staff(s). Now, even though it wouldn’t be a presidential administration that reveals names, it could be anybody. Wikileaks shows us that there is no such thing as absolute secrecy.

372 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 10:21:58am

re: #371 Opal

Wikileaks shows us that there is no such thing as absolute secrecy.

That’s what the long history of various defections shows. WL didn’t break any new ground.

Here’s a page WL supporters made:

[Link: wlcentral.org…]

Obviously, it is slanted in WL’s defense. Yet the information there is interesting.

373 tradewind  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 10:27:13am

Speaking of unloading: Here’s a little stocking stuffer/gift to show the TSA your disapproval next time you’re caught in a backscatter scanner…comes in female versions also:
Image: tsa-underpants.jpg

374 William of Orange  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 10:34:43am

BREAKING NEWS

Someone is figting fire with fire!
Wikileaks is down due to a hacker attack!

375 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 28, 2010 2:06:15pm

re: #171 golgoth

I come to this blog to read what Charles has to say, but dear god you people in the comment section are as bad as the Palinites.

The second someone comes into your “territory” of ideas, you scramble enmass to keep order of a certain thought.

Obvious solution: If you don’t like the comments, then don’t click on the link that takes you to them. If you’re only interested in Charles’ comments, then use the search utility to look up comments for “user:Charles” and you’ll be able to read each of his comments in isolation.

376 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 29, 2010 2:25:14am

re: #212 Gus 802

What falsehoods? I’m quoting information I have found just as much as you are in your defense of Ass.

I have not defended Assange one bit, you liar.

Also, lol @ the downdings.

377 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 29, 2010 2:26:42am

re: #213 talon_262

Do you have a problem with Sanger personally or with what he said (as quoted by Charles)?

I have a problem with how he is being quoted as some sort of authority which his (undisputed) co-founding of Wikipedia allegedly gives him.

378 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 29, 2010 2:27:21am

re: #216 Gus 802

[Nupedia-l] Let’s make a wiki
Larry Sanger lsanger[x]nupedia.com
Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:50:32 -0800

If Larry Sanger isn’t a co-founder I don’t know who is.

Again: I have never disputed this. You are arguing against straw-men you are putting up yourself.

379 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 29, 2010 2:37:22am

Wow, never been subject to bullying on LGF before. That was interesting.


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