Hatey Holidays From Idaho

US News • Views: 28,971

It’s that time of the year when even Idaho white supremacists start to feel that ol’ Yuletide spirit.

The sculpture depicts a snowman with a pointed hat and an outstretched right hand with a noose in it. Residents in the neighborhood say the homeowners also have an Aryan Nations flag on display.

One resident said they were “appalled at the nerve they have to threaten people in our community with their signs of hatred,” adding that this is a season of love and hope, not hate.

The homeowner who had the offensive snow sculpture in front of his home is Mark, who was profiled by KXLY back in July for posting flags ranging from an Aryan Nations flag to an SS flag at his home, drawing the ire of his neighbors. Then in October he angered residents further when, according to neighbors, he passed out bullets on Halloween.

A self-described White Separatist, Mark, who declined to give his last name during an interview in July, said Tuesday there was nothing wrong with his snowman.

(Hat tip: Stanley Sea.)

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306 comments
1 Kragar  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 2:54:02pm

Putting the KKK in Khristmas.

2 RogueOne  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 2:54:27pm

Sounds like a bit of an attention whore.

3 Four More Tears  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 2:54:47pm

You know, I wouldn't mind it so much if they all stayed in Idaho.

4 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 2:55:05pm

Lol. The fuckin' stupid North lol.
/hurr hurr

5 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 2:56:26pm

Here we go... liberals complaining again about Christmas displays... can't please them in any sort of way.
//

6 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 2:56:37pm

Nothing says I am a bigoted jackass like a noose. White supermacists sure are obsessed with those things.

7 theheat  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 2:57:11pm
"We don't need the communist government to decide how to dress our snowmen, or have Michelle Obama say what our God-given white snowmen should be able to eat. Merry Christmas to all the white Christians that believe in a free America!"
8 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 2:57:42pm

On a semi-related note.

9 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 2:58:05pm

This seems like an problem that should be fairly easy to rectify (at least this particular symptom of the problem) at least.

1: Stand on city side of property line

2: Make snowball

3: Throw Snowball at snow Klansman.

4: Repeat step 3 until you have achieved the desired effect....

10 albusteve  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 2:58:28pm

white Christians again?....these freaks bore me

11 jaunte  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 2:58:52pm
While the KKK snowman might be gone, Mark isn’t through yet. He’s now planning to modify his snowman to look like a Nazi soldier.


Putting the Godwin back in Christmas.

12 Four More Tears  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 2:59:18pm

re: #8 Slumbering Behemoth

On a semi-related note.

Based on the size I can tell it isn't Irish...

13 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 2:59:25pm

Decidedly not what Bing had in mind...

Youtube Video
14 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 2:59:37pm
A self-described White Separatist, Mark, who declined to give his last name during an interview in July, said Tuesday there was nothing wrong with his snowman.

Nope, it's just snow. But Mark, there is something real fuckin' wrong with you, douche bag.

15 cliffster  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:00:15pm

this is why I live in an HOA neighborhood.

16 researchok  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:00:24pm

re: #8 Slumbering Behemoth

On a semi-related note.

Oedipal is an understatement.

17 albusteve  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:00:45pm

let's give Marko his fifteen minutes, then talk about fast cars or whatever

18 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:03:28pm

Wow. I thought internet stalking was the very best way to say to the world "I'm an unrepentant asshole". But this guy actually found a better way to declare the every same thing. Congratulations.

19 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:03:52pm

re: #17 albusteve

let's give Marko his fifteen minutes, then talk about fast cars or whatever

How about fast bikes, and Kung Fu...

Youtube Video
20 theheat  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:04:34pm

re: #17 albusteve

let's give Marko his fifteen minutes, then talk about fast cars or whatever

Okay, his 15 minutes are up. My current dilemma: I ordered from Ulta and the free perfume samples they sent with my order smell like ass. So disappointed.

21 austin_blue  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:05:25pm

re: #12 JasonA

Based on the size I can tell it isn't Irish...

Sad but true. We make damn good soldiers, though. Compensation.

22 Kragar  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:05:27pm

re: #19 wrenchwench

How about fast bikes, and Kung Fu...

[Video]

Or Nirvana with a special guest singer...

Youtube Video
23 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:06:27pm

re: #20 theheat

Um, I don't think you're supposed to put perfume there.
/:P

24 Four More Tears  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:06:32pm

re: #21 austin_blue

Sad but true. We make damn good soldiers, though. Compensation.

Not to mention an Irishman half my weight can drink me under the table...

25 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:06:41pm

Frosty the Klansman...bet he even has lyrics for it.

26 RogueOne  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:07:04pm

Before I run:

The top 48 ads that would never be allowed today:
[Link: owni.eu...]

This one could get a man killed:
Image: pub_vintage_035.jpg

27 austin_blue  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:07:09pm

re: #24 JasonA

Not to mention an Irishman half my weight can drink me under the table...

Whiskey kept us from conquering the world.

28 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:09:49pm

re: #26 RogueOne

What, no vintage ads for cocaine or heroin? Total rip-off!

29 cliffster  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:12:04pm

re: #26 RogueOne

Goals and dreams are of Satan..

Image: dreams-goals.jpg

30 albusteve  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:12:21pm

re: #27 austin_blue

Whiskey kept us from conquering the world.

me too

31 RogueOne  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:12:35pm

re: #28 Slumbering Behemoth

I saved this one to use as an avatar pic sometime

Image: pub_vintage_031.jpg

32 RogueOne  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:13:23pm

re: #29 cliffster

Goals and dreams are of Satan..

Image: dreams-goals.jpg

LOL. I like that!

33 RogueOne  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:13:40pm

I'm gone, everyone have a good evening.

34 cliffster  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:14:27pm

re: #33 RogueOne

I'm gone, everyone have a good evening.

b4 u go, pls make me a sammich

35 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:16:39pm
While the KKK snowman might be diminished, Mark isn't through yet. He's now planning to modify his snowman to look like a Nazi soldier.

Perhaps he has relatives in Indiana...

Bloomington Police search for suspect in anti-Semitic attacks

...Police there are investigating five acts of what they call anti-semitic vandalism in the past week.

The Hillel House is one of the centers targeted by vandals. It is a meeting place on the campus of Indiana University. Tonight, many are gathering at Hillel House to celebrate the first of eight nights of Hanukkah.

On the first day of a festival that marks the triumph of good over evil, members of the Jewish community in Bloomington are struggling to overcome the malicious attack.

"There was a rock thrown in the kitchen," asked puzzled IU student Shelli Goldzband.

Goldzband just learned about the five acts of vandalism targeting Jewish facilities in the past week.

Police say someone threw rocks into windows --and damaged Hebrew books at the library in the Hillel House, where Goldzband volunteers each week.

...Police say they have a person of interest in mind. Witnesses described a white man in his 40s. However, detectives have not identified anyone as a suspect.

36 austin_blue  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:17:08pm

re: #34 cliffster

b4 u go, pls make me a sammich

Whack!

37 freetoken  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:18:21pm

Just because we haven't had enough yet...

Dancing Hot to Trot for Another Palin

It's only been a week since Bristol Palin retired her dancing shoes, but I'm told…

Producers are already hot to sign her dad, Todd (aka Mr. Sarah Palin), for next season.

"They want him big time," a source reveals. "They'd love Sarah, but they don't think that will ever happen, so why not go for the dad."

Despite the Tea Party conspiracy controversy that surrounded Bristol's success on the show—not to mention the mystery white powder and supposed death threats—producers think Todd will be "ratings gold," says the source.

No word yet if the former First Dude of Alaska has been approached by producers or ABC.

Also on the producers' political wish list are John McCain's daughter, Meghan, and Elliot Spitzer, the former hooker-lovin' governor of New York who now cohosts a talk show on CNN.

38 theheat  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:21:54pm

re: #37 freetoken

Another reason I'll be looking at NetFlix instead of network programming.

39 austin_blue  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:22:18pm

re: #37 freetoken

Just because we haven't had enough yet...

Dancing Hot to Trot for Another Palin

Gaaah!

40 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:23:25pm

re: #37 freetoken

Also on the producers' political wish list are John McCain's daughter, Meghan...

Hmm... Might have to actually watch an episode if that happens.
/might

41 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:25:33pm

re: #37 freetoken

Just because we haven't had enough yet...

Dancing Hot to Trot for Another Palin

I'm glad I don't watch that show. Now they have Skating With The Stars on too. It's pretty obvious they have run out of ideas.

42 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:26:05pm

There's a skating with the stars too?

This is a sure sign of the end times.

43 theheat  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:26:40pm

re: #41 NJDhockeyfan

I'm glad I don't watch that show. Now they have Skating With The Stars on too. It's pretty obvious they have run out of ideas.

Well, there's always "Ow, My Balls"

Youtube Video
44 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:27:47pm

re: #43 theheat

Well, there's always "Ow, My Balls"

[Video]

Now that's pure entertainment!

45 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:28:37pm

re: #1 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Putting the KKK in Khristmas.

When Santa Klaus comes to town.

/

46 austin_blue  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:29:04pm

re: #43 theheat

Well, there's always "Ow, My Balls"

[Video]

Loved that movie...

47 TedStriker  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:29:25pm
A self-described White Separatist, Mark, who declined to give his last name during an interview in July, said Tuesday there was nothing wrong with his snowman.

"Mark", you're a racist, douchebag asshole.

/get behind thee, Satan...

48 Four More Tears  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:29:51pm

re: #42 Fozzie Bear

There's a skating with the stars too?

This is a sure sign of the end times.

Might get entertaining when they add Tanya Harding in there, though...

49 TedStriker  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:33:22pm

re: #48 JasonA

Might get entertaining when they add Tanya Harding in there, though...

Have you seen Tonya on The Smoking Gun Presents? She looks a bit flankier than she used to be in her skating prime...

50 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:34:29pm

Oh shit, yo! It's muh-fuckin' juggalo christmas charity drive, bitches!

[NSFW, obviously]

/do it for da fuckin' kids!

51 nines09  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:35:38pm

re: #37 freetoken

Just because we haven't had enough yet...

Dancing Hot to Trot for Another Palin


Makes you wonder what Newton N. Minow would say today.

52 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:38:03pm

re: #49 talon_262

i think she looks pretty darn good myself but then again I like women of substance.

53 theheat  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:38:59pm

re: #52 Dreggas

There are draft horses pulling plows with less substance. Just sayin'.

54 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:39:34pm

Sorry, looking at that pht, the only thing I could think was:

"Hey Earl, does this sheet make my ass look big?"

The good news about portly Klansmen is that you can beat the snot out of them at will, if they ever get "frisky."

55 Kruk  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:40:24pm

re: #48 JasonA

Might get entertaining when they add Tanya Harding in there, though...

Anyone who says "break a leg" before she goes out might get done for incitement.

56 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:41:25pm

Fox News debate: Was the Oregon Bomber an Inside Job?
Is It Ok For FBI To 'Cultivate' A Terror Patsy To Bust At Just The Right Time In A High Profile Way?

Youtube Video

I'll give O'Riley some credit for embarrassing Napolitano. He hints at the Truther thing but doesn't bring it up. I assume he's not allowed to by Fox management.

57 Kruk  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:42:29pm

re: #6 HappyWarrior

Nothing says I am a bigoted jackass like a noose. White supermacists sure are obsessed with those things.

Ideal choice of penis metaphor though. Limp and crooked.

59 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:44:01pm

re: #58 Killgore Trout

What!?! Not content with stealing elections, now they gotta steal our food too?!?
/

60 Kruk  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:44:11pm

re: #58 Killgore Trout

Recipes for the Mighty Acorn: A Forager Experiments

Cue reading challenged wingnut hatred in three...two...one...

61 Kruk  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:44:48pm

re: #59 Slumbering Behemoth

What!?! Not content with stealing elections, now they gotta steal our food too?!?
/

Ack. You beat me to the pun.

62 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:45:48pm

re: #59 Slumbering Behemoth

well played sir, well played.

63 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:46:54pm

re: #61 Kruk

Shit, I better go put a dollar on the lottery, then. I never beat anyone here to a pun.

64 cliffster  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:49:40pm

re: #56 Killgore Trout

"Now you're wandering into the land of theory which you can do on your dopey show but not here" You go Bill

65 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:52:19pm

re: #64 cliffster

"Now you're wandering into the land of theory which you can do on your dopey show but not here" You go Bill

I saw that last night at the gym. I was on a treadmill machine, with a cable TV set up, and I was watching the 9:00 mountain time repeat of the show.

When Bill said that to him, Napolitano eyes bugged out and I swear, he looked like Yoda who pass his first shit after being constipated for 3 days.

I laughed so loud that everyone int he gym turned around. I almost slide off the treadmill.

66 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:54:30pm

A self-described White Separatist Sociopath, Mark, who declined to give his last name during an interview in July, said Tuesday there was nothing wrong with his snowman.

fixed

67 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:57:31pm

re: #56 Killgore Trout

Fox News debate: Was the Oregon Bomber an Inside Job?
Is It Ok For FBI To 'Cultivate' A Terror Patsy To Bust At Just The Right Time In A High Profile Way?

[Video]I'll give O'Riley some credit for embarrassing Napolitano. He hints at the Truther thing but doesn't bring it up. I assume he's not allowed to by Fox management.

Napolitano doesn't get it. Wanting to commit a crime or having thoughts about committing a crime is not the same thing as a material conspiracy to commit a crime. I think someone like him would know that.

68 cliffster  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 3:59:01pm

re: #65 Walter L. Newton

I saw that last night at the gym. I was on a treadmill machine, with a cable TV set up, and I was watching the 9:00 mountain time repeat of the show.

When Bill said that to him, Napolitano eyes bugged out and I swear, he looked like Yoda who pass his first shit after being constipated for 3 days.

I laughed so loud that everyone int he gym turned around. I almost slide off the treadmill.

I might have to try watching Bill again. I go back and forth. One thing's for sure, though, I can't watch football while running on a treadmill. At least not a game that I care about.

69 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:01:34pm

Thanks for the Hat Tip Charles!

Got the story from the SPLC twitter feed.

Hate...I hate it.

70 calochortus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:02:02pm

re: #15 cliffster

this is why I live in an HOA neighborhood.

Its why I live in a neighborhood without snow.

71 cliffster  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:03:05pm

re: #70 calochortus

it's why I live in a neighborhood without racists

72 Nemesis6  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:04:43pm

He put so much effort into this snowman, and he had to make it a klansman...

Misdirected talent, I say!

73 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:05:05pm

This comes right after I saw the Lexx episode where the rube astronauts from the planet of Potatado (basically Idaho, but a whole planet) come across the Lexx and hilarity ensues

74 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:06:15pm

re: #15 cliffster

this is why I live in an HOA neighborhood.

yeah, but racists can't put a lein on your house because you used the wrong type of shingles on your roof or you dared park a truck in your driveway

75 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:06:31pm

re: #49 talon_262

Have you seen Tonya on The Smoking Gun Presents? She looks a bit flankier than she used to be in her skating prime...

"I put him to the grouuund"

Anyone get that quote?

76 calochortus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:06:37pm

re: #71 cliffster

Always a good choice. I do too, as far as I know...

78 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:12:07pm

re: #77 Killgore Trout

How Lieberman Got Amazon To Drop Wikileaks

Amazon did the right thing, but really don't like Liebermann being anywhere near free speech issues with his general panaroid anti-art think-of-the-children oh god the rock and roll and the video games bullshit, he's just another Tipper Gore type

79 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:12:35pm

re: #77 Killgore Trout

How Lieberman Got Amazon To Drop Wikileaks

I read that earlier, and I just re-read it in case it had changed. It does not say "how". It just says he made a phone call, then announced that they were cutting off Wikileaks. Bad headline.

80 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:13:50pm

re: #45 Gus 802

When Santa Klaus comes to town.

/

Which brings to mind one of my favorite Christmas specials.

Youtube Video

Yes, I am a sick and twisted individual.

81 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:14:24pm

re: #77 Killgore Trout

How Lieberman Got Amazon To Drop Wikileaks

(from article)


The Electronic Frontier Foundation, a group that advocates for Internet freedom of speech by defending court cases, said the axing certainly doesn't violate the First Amendment. But it is, according to senior staff attorney Kevin Bankston, "disappointing."

"This certainly implicates First Amendment rights to the extent that web hosts may, based on direct or informal pressure, limit the materials the American public has a First Amendment right to access," Bankston told TPM.

WTF? Since when does the first amendment give Americans the right to access private communications? Perhaps this bozo lawyer would like to send me the passwords to all his email accounts?

82 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:14:45pm

Woman Rolls Into TSA Screening in Bra, Panties, and Wheelchair

Liveleak Video

Uhhh....there's a fine line between national security and exhibitionism.

83 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:15:03pm

re: #80 Romantic Heretic

Which brings to mind one of my favorite Christmas specials.


[Video]Yes, I am a sick and twisted individual.

Bah I thought it was gonna be the Futurama one...

"Your missile tow is no match for me TOW Missile!"

84 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:16:30pm

re: #79 wrenchwench

I read that earlier, and I just re-read it in case it had changed. It does not say "how". It just says he made a phone call, then announced that they were cutting off Wikileaks. Bad headline.

Good point. I didn't catch that.

85 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:16:30pm

re: #82 Killgore Trout

Woman Rolls Into TSA Screening in Bra, Panties, and Wheelchair


[Video]

Uhhh...there's a fine line between national security and exhibitionism.

This is going to bring the Bra, Panties, Wheelchair fetish crowd out of the woodwork.

86 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:17:13pm

re: #81 Walter L. Newton

(from article)


WTF? Since when does the first amendment give Americans the right to access private communications? Perhaps this bozo lawyer would like to send me the passwords to all his email accounts?

I'll bet they're his birthdate, or his kids or pets names!

87 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:17:17pm

re: #81 Walter L. Newton

yeah, the EFF are bozos 9_9 Clearly you don't seem to know much about the EFF.

The EFF's notion of chilling effect is correct. They know what Liebermann does. Liebermann has a long history of smearing art and artists and blaming art for murder. Fuck that guy, he's shit.

88 Spocomptonite  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:17:44pm

Damn, this is in my area. *Proximity shame*

Spokane and CdA are pretty cool cities, but man, drive a few miles from either city's center and there's no telling what you're going to find. Doing the census this summer led to meeting some very, uh, interesting characters.

89 cliffster  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:17:45pm

re: #74 WindUpBird

yeah, but racists can't put a lein on your house because you used the wrong type of shingles on your roof or you dared park a truck in your driveway

I don't like my neighbors parking bondo-covered cars on bricks in their front yards, and I don't want them building KKK snowmen in their front yards. HOA is 2 for 2.

90 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:18:07pm

re: #82 Killgore Trout

Woman Rolls Into TSA Screening in Bra, Panties, and Wheelchair


[Video]Uhhh...there's a fine line between national security and exhibitionism.

People of Wal-Mart.

/

91 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:18:24pm

So for anyone who wants to actually learn something:

The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) is an international non-profit digital rights advocacy and legal organization based in the United States. Its stated mission is to:[1]
Engage in and support educational activities which increase popular understanding of the opportunities and challenges posed by developments in computing and telecommunications.
Develop among policy-makers a better understanding of the issues underlying free and open telecommunications, and support the creation of legal and structural approaches which will ease the assimilation of these new technologies by society.
Raise public awareness about civil liberties issues arising from the rapid advancement in the area of new computer-based communications media.
Support litigation in the public interest to preserve, protect, and extend First Amendment rights within the realm of computing and telecommunications technology.
Encourage and support the development of new tools which will endow non-technical users with full and easy access to computer-based telecommunications.
The EFF is supported by donations and is based in San Francisco, California, with staff members in Washington, D.C. They are accredited observers at the World Intellectual Property Organization[2] and one of the participants of the Global Network Initiative.[3]
EFF has taken action in several ways. It provides funds for legal defense in court, defends individuals and new technologies from what it considers baseless or misdirected legal threats, works to expose government malfeasance, provides guidance to the government and courts, organizes political action and mass mailings, supports some new technologies which it believes preserve personal freedoms, maintains a database and web sites of related news and information, monitors and challenges potential legislation that it believes would infringe on personal liberties and fair use, and solicits a list of what it considers patent abuses with intentions to defeat those that it considers without merit.
92 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:19:10pm

re: #87 WindUpBird

yeah, the EFF are bozos 9_9 Clearly you don't seem to know much about the EFF.

The EFF's notion of chilling effect is correct. They know what Liebermann does. Liebermann has a long history of smearing art and artists and blaming art for murder. Fuck that guy, he's shit.

I don't care WHO the EFF are, I don't care in this case what Liebermann does or doesn't do... my agrument was with this statement...

""This certainly implicates First Amendment rights to the extent that web hosts may, based on direct or informal pressure, limit the materials the American public has a First Amendment right to access," Bankston told TPM."

Now... tell me... Americans have a first amendment right to this material... simple question, yes/no..

93 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:19:20pm

re: #87 WindUpBird

yeah, the EFF are bozos 9_9 Clearly you don't seem to know much about the EFF.

The EFF's notion of chilling effect is correct. They know what Liebermann does. Liebermann has a long history of smearing art and artists and blaming art for murder. Fuck that guy, he's shit.

Amazon is under no legal obligation to carry Wikileaks.

94 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:20:31pm

re: #92 Walter L. Newton

I don't care WHO the EFF are, I don't care in this case what Liebermann does or doesn't do... my agrument was with this statement...

""This certainly implicates First Amendment rights to the extent that web hosts may, based on direct or informal pressure, limit the materials the American public has a First Amendment right to access," Bankston told TPM."

Now... tell me... Americans have a first amendment right to this material... simple question, yes/no..

What does the first amendment have to do with people having right to material?

First Amendment is about people's right to say whatever the f*** they want, not to know everything...

95 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:20:37pm
The creation of the organization was motivated by the massive search and seizure on Steve Jackson Games executed by the United States Secret Service early in 1990. Similar but officially unconnected law-enforcement raids were being conducted across the United States at about that time as part of a state-federal task force called Operation Sundevil. However, the Steve Jackson Games case, which became EFF's first high-profile case, was the major rallying point where EFF began promoting computer and Internet related civil liberties. In 1993, their offices moved to 1001 G Street in Washington, D.C. That same year Big Dummy's guide to the Internet, an Electronic Frontier Foundation publication, was made available for free download.
EFF's second big case was Bernstein v. United States led by Cindy Cohn, where programmer and professor Daniel J. Bernstein sued the government for permission to publish his encryption software, Snuffle, and a paper describing it. More recently the organization has been involved in defending Edward Felten, Jon Lech Johansen and Dmitry Sklyarov.

I remember that Steve Jackson case, I was in jr. high school, read about it on BBSes, I remember being amazed that the secret Service would show up and try and ruin the life of a freaking hobbyist game company for no reason. I owned that game book. SJG sued the secret service and won.

Conservatives should be on the side of the EFF, if they, you know, actually care about liberty and such.

96 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:20:46pm

It's the same thing like LGF.

97 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:21:07pm

re: #92 Walter L. Newton

I don't care WHO the EFF are, I don't care in this case what Liebermann does or doesn't do... my agrument was with this statement...

""This certainly implicates First Amendment rights to the extent that web hosts may, based on direct or informal pressure, limit the materials the American public has a First Amendment right to access," Bankston told TPM."

Now... tell me... Americans have a first amendment right to this material... simple question, yes/no..

They're talking about chilling effect, and you know it.

Google chilling effect plz, stop playing semantic grandpa games.

98 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:21:31pm

re: #81 Walter L. Newton

Since when does the first amendment give Americans the right to access private communications?

since i need to get used to the new reality under the "patriot" act where my emails and phone calls with my clients outside of the u.s. can be accessed without warrant, i no longer get so worked up about it

i wonder what they made out of my explanation of levenshtein distance to my client in hong kong?

99 Ojoe  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:21:38pm

Towercam big shadow sunset. San Gabriel Mountains of California, Pacific time zone.

If you leave it up in a browser window, you can watch the shadow get several miles longer.

100 cliffster  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:21:49pm

re: #82 Killgore Trout

Trolling the TSA...

Image: amendment4.jpg

101 Kruk  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:22:25pm

re: #92 Walter L. Newton

Now... tell me... Americans have a first amendment right to this material... simple question, yes/no..

I agree with you. I was angry about the "Climate Gate" hack because those were private communications. These cables should were private communications. The same principles apply.

102 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:22:28pm

re: #82 Killgore Trout

Woman Rolls Into TSA Screening in Bra, Panties, and Wheelchair

[Video]

Uhhh...there's a fine line between national security and exhibitionism.

Is that a pussy in her lap, or am i just happy to see her!?!?

//

103 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:23:14pm

re: #97 WindUpBird

They're talking about chilling effect, and you know it.

Google chilling effect plz, stop playing semantic grandpa games.

He's talking about the MATERIAL that is referenced in the article... the WIKILEAKS MATERIAL... and you think Americans have a first amendment right to that material?

You never answered my question.

104 APox  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:23:19pm

re: #41 NJDhockeyfan

I'm glad I don't watch that show. Now they have Skating With The Stars on too. It's pretty obvious they have run out of ideas.

I'm making a new show:

"Doing stuff with stars"

I'll be making my pitch to network execs, I'd appreciate your support. That is all.

By the way, fuck that Mark guy.

105 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:23:55pm

re: #94 jamesfirecat

What does the first amendment have to do with people having right to material?

First Amendment is about people's right to say whatever the f*** they want, not to know everything...

Not really. You can say whatever you want to a limited extent. Basically it covers public areas but not private domains. A radio station doesn't have the obligation to carry the expressions of whomever so wishes to do so. Neither does an ISP and neither does Little Green Footballs. For example, we had a temporary policy here at LGF that prohibited the linking to the Climategate emails.

106 Ojoe  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:24:01pm

re: #85 Walter L. Newton

This is going to bring the Bra, Panties, Wheelchair fetish crowd out of the woodwork.

Hell, it might encourage kilt wearing, a quick flip & you're through, and no touching.

107 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:24:33pm

re: #104 APox

I'm making a new show:

"Doing stuff with stars"
I'll be making my pitch to network execs, I'd appreciate your support. That is all.

By the way, fuck that Mark guy.

And the next season, it will be "Doing Stuff With People Who Did Stuff With Stars"

108 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:24:58pm

re: #93 Gus 802

Amazon is under no legal obligation to carry Wikileaks.

I agree! But the EFF lawyer's actual real serious for really reals point (that a politician can lean on a webhost to essentially suppress speech) is currently being missed by all of y'all, but oh well. I don't give a crap about wikileaks in particular, fuck 'em, shut them down, another site will pop up, whatever. I do give a crap about Liebermann being at the levers of power deciding what we can and can't have hosted to us on a cloud server.

because I really am better at making such decisions than a stupid old man who blamed Marilyn Manson for Columbine.

109 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:26:32pm

re: #108 WindUpBird

I agree! But the EFF lawyer's actual real serious for really reals point (that a politician can lean on a webhost to essentially suppress speech) is currently being missed by all of y'all, but oh well. I don't give a crap about wikileaks in particular, fuck 'em, shut them down, another site will pop up, whatever. I do give a crap about Liebermann being at the levers of power deciding what we can and can't have hosted to us on a cloud server.

because I really am better at making such decisions than a stupid old man who blamed Marilyn Manson for Columbine.

Well. I wouldn't be surprised if Lieberman is just trying to get credit where credit isn't due.

110 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:26:41pm

re: #108 WindUpBird

I agree! But the EFF lawyer's actual real serious for really reals point (that a politician can lean on a webhost to essentially suppress speech) is currently being missed by all of y'all, but oh well. I don't give a crap about wikileaks in particular, fuck 'em, shut them down, another site will pop up, whatever. I do give a crap about Liebermann being at the levers of power deciding what we can and can't have hosted to us on a cloud server.

because I really am better at making such decisions than a stupid old man who blamed Marilyn Manson for Columbine.

Where did you read ANYTHING that indicated that Lieberman decided what Amazon could or could not host.

Reference please?

111 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:27:05pm

re: #107 sattv4u2

And the next season, it will be "Doing Stuff With People Who Did Stuff With Stars"

Reminds me of the Daily Show send up, where they had a reality TV show about three reality TV show writers trapped in a house together and forced to think up the next big reality TV show hit....

112 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:27:58pm

re: #108 WindUpBird

I agree! But the EFF lawyer's actual real serious for really reals point (that a politician can lean on a webhost to essentially suppress speech) is currently being missed by all of y'all, but oh well. I don't give a crap about wikileaks in particular, fuck 'em, shut them down, another site will pop up, whatever. I do give a crap about Liebermann being at the levers of power deciding what we can and can't have hosted to us on a cloud server.

because I really am better at making such decisions than a stupid old man who blamed Marilyn Manson for Columbine.

So if that was the question then no, the government can't tell Amazon what they could carry until deemed illegal. Such as child porn, etc. Until the government "bans" the Wikileaks documents then they really have no authority.

113 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:29:04pm

re: #91 WindUpBird

So for anyone who wants to actually learn something


Snark doesn't become you in this instance. Nobody is debating you re: the merits of the EFF.

What is at issue is Amazons right to choose who they do business with. I doubt they made the decision based on ONE senators statenment

114 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:31:24pm

re: #108 WindUpBird

I agree! But the EFF lawyer's actual real serious for really reals point (that a politician can lean on a webhost to essentially suppress speech) is currently being missed by all of y'all, but oh well. I don't give a crap about wikileaks in particular, fuck 'em, shut them down, another site will pop up, whatever. I do give a crap about Liebermann being at the levers of power deciding what we can and can't have hosted to us on a cloud server.

because I really am better at making such decisions than a stupid old man who blamed Marilyn Manson for Columbine.

Double bold. Please. We are watching it occur right before our very eyes.

115 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:31:52pm

re: #103 Walter L. Newton

He's talking about the MATERIAL that is referenced in the article... the WIKILEAKS MATERIAL... and you think Americans have a first amendment right to that material?

You never answered my question.

Actually, if it's released, if it's already leaked and turned loose, then yes, I believe one does have a right. it's out there, it's been set loose, it's on the internet. I don't think it's a good idea that it was released, I certainly don't think Assauge is some hero, but once Pandora's Box is opened, and it clearly has been, then absolutely. I have a right to see it. People on LGF are posting stuff from the leaks constantly. it's here, it's news.


That's the problem with the internet, and being able to access the internet from anywhere in the world. America doesn't run the world. Shit will leak. It happens. Now, if Wikileaks can't find a server? Then they can't find a server. They don't have a right to an Amazon cloud server. But it's the internet. There's always web servers somewhere in the world. And if not servers, then emails. if not emails then FTP sites. if not FTP sites, then flash drives.

Meanwhile, I'm going to go listen to some music that apparently causes me to massacre high school students or something.

116 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:31:58pm

[Link: tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

117 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:32:31pm

re: #109 Gus 802

Well. I wouldn't be surprised if Lieberman is just trying to get credit where credit isn't due.

if only he weren't as influential as he is. Anything that gives that guy more power over media worries me.

118 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:32:49pm

It's official

The county I live in had a tornado last night

(fortunately,,, I live in the largest county in Georgia and I am in the furthest southeast corner and the tornado was in the furthest northwest corner)

119 Usually refered to as anyways  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:33:44pm

What am I missing,

Julian Assange is not a US citizen, and so far I have not seen any one state what law he is under that he has broken.

If he has broken no law, under what law does anyone have the right to stop him?

120 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:33:44pm

re: #116 Fozzie Bear

[Link: tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

That's the article we are talking about... Killgore posted a link above.

121 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:33:48pm

re: #118 sattv4u2

It's official

The county I live in had a tornado last night

(fortunately,,, I live in the largest county in Georgia and I am in the furthest southeast corner and the tornado was in the furthest northwest corner)

[Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]

122 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:33:50pm

re: #114 Stanley Sea

Double bold. Please. We are watching it occur right before our very eyes.

Yep! Windupbird doesn't like it!

(I realize everyone is more concerned about the leak. I guess I'm just not quite as horrified as I'm supposed to be that secrets are hard to keep in this tech climate. I consider it pretty much an obvious thing that is constantly going to happen.)

123 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:34:46pm

re: #120 Walter L. Newton

That's the article we are talking about... Killgore posted a link above.

Yeah I was just plunking it down because you asked what Lieberman had to do with it. Didn't see KT's link. Carry on.

124 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:35:26pm

Anyone who was aware of the EFF, what they do, the SS raid on SJG, or any of their major cases before right now, please raise your hand

125 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:35:46pm

re: #117 WindUpBird

if only he weren't as influential as he is. Anything that gives that guy more power over media worries me.

OK But like I said Senator Lieberman doesn't have any legal authority over Amazon. Amazon could have ignored him if they so desired. If Wikileaks does find another US based ISP they're not legally obligated to take it down until the DOJ or a court tells them otherwise.

126 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:36:35pm

re: #122 WindUpBird

Yep! Windupbird doesn't like it!

(I realize everyone is more concerned about the leak. I guess I'm just not quite as horrified as I'm supposed to be that secrets are hard to keep in this tech climate. I consider it pretty much an obvious thing that is constantly going to happen.)

My inquiry was not about the EFF, not about the leak, not about Assange, it was about ONE PART of the lawyers statement... a statement, that even if taken out of context of the current issue, still does not ring truthful with me... that's all I was talking about... wasn't it?

127 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:37:37pm

re: #80 Romantic Heretic

I almost linked that here one Christmas Eve, but thought "Nah. A castrated easter bunny might be too much".

Heh.

128 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:38:00pm

re: #119 ozbloke

What am I missing,

Julian Assange is not a US citizen, and so far I have not seen any one state what law he is under that he has broken.

If he has broken no law, under what law does anyone have the right to stop him?

It isn't even clear he has broken any laws yet. This is much ado about nothing. Leaking documents is illegal. Publishing them could fall under the first amendment in the US, and not subject to our laws directly outside the US.

I keep saying this, and people keep asking me to prove it. How can I prove a negative? If someone can even prove that anyone in an official capacity has even charged Assange with anything, that would be a helpful aid to discussion. I haven't seen it.

129 theheat  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:38:02pm

re: #82 Killgore Trout

I don't need no stinking x-rays to tell me she isn't a natural blond.

But I think her undies look nice. For an exhibitionist.

130 Usually refered to as anyways  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:38:20pm

re: #124 WindUpBird

Anyone who was aware of the EFF, what they do, the SS raid on SJG, or any of their major cases before right now, please raise your hand

Hand raised, we have a guy from Western Australia, Michael Malone, he was one of the founders of the EFF, they do great work, they are on the side of access to all.

131 cliffster  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:38:56pm

re: #125 Gus 802

OK But like I said Senator Lieberman doesn't have any legal authority over Amazon. Amazon could have ignored him if they so desired. If Wikileaks does find another US based ISP they're not legally obligated to take it down until the DOJ or a court tells them otherwise.

Can't you see what Lieberman is doing? Call Alex Jones!

132 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:39:11pm

re: #104 APox

I'm making a new show:

"Doing stuff with stars"

I'll be making my pitch to network execs, I'd appreciate your support. That is all.

By the way, fuck that Mark guy.

It can come on right after my show, Doing Crap in Bars.

I wouldn't fuck Mark for all the money in Bill Gate's bank accounts, but I would fuck him up for free.

133 Usually refered to as anyways  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:39:50pm

re: #128 Fozzie Bear

It isn't even clear he has broken any laws yet. This is much ado about nothing. Leaking documents is illegal. Publishing them could fall under the first amendment in the US, and not subject to our laws directly outside the US.

I keep saying this, and people keep asking me to prove it. How can I prove a negative? If someone can even prove that anyone in an official capacity has even charged Assange with anything, that would be a helpful aid to discussion. I haven't seen it.

I'm with you Fozzie.

134 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:40:58pm

re: #124 WindUpBird

Anyone who was aware of the EFF, what they do, the SS raid on SJG, or any of their major cases before right now, please raise your hand

Hand raised

As someone who works for a company that provides the pipeline (fiber optics) for many ISP's around the world we are aware of them

(((footnote ,,, the division of the company I work for does NOT)))

135 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:41:53pm

re: #134 sattv4u2

Doesn't what? Like the EFF, i'm guessing?

136 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:41:59pm

Think about it the other way around. What if the government forced private entities, or in this case an ISP, to carry content they didn't desire to carry. IOW you could file a civil suit against and ISP or even a blog site for censoring material. You would have the KKK demanding to be heard anywhere they desired and protected by law. You would have neo-Nazis suing LGF or Amazon for not being allowed "freedom of speech".

137 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:42:25pm

re: #126 Walter L. Newton

that's all I was talking about... wasn't it?

NO ,, we'll decide what you are talking about, and you'll like it, mister!

138 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:42:30pm

re: #82 Killgore Trout

Woman Rolls Into TSA Screening in Bra, Panties, and Wheelchair


[Video]Uhhh...there's a fine line between national security and exhibitionism.

That's one of them Japanese animatronic thingys, innit?
/

139 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:42:51pm

re: #135 Fozzie Bear

Doesn't what? Like the EFF, i'm guessing?

No ,, have to deal with/ interact/ worry about them

140 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:43:32pm

re: #124 WindUpBird

Anyone who was aware of the EFF, what they do, the SS raid on SJG, or any of their major cases before right now, please raise your hand

nope, but I am grateful to learn.

141 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:43:51pm

re: #136 Gus 802

Think about it the other way around. What if the government forced private entities, or in this case an ISP, to carry content they didn't desire to carry. IOW you could file a civil suit against and ISP or even a blog site for censoring material. You would have the KKK demanding to be heard anywhere they desired and protected by law. You would have neo-Nazis suing LGF or Amazon for not being allowed "freedom of speech".

If they offer a service free to the public under a certain set of terms, there are definitely laws in place to ensure that they must do so without respect to content, unless the licence specifically states otherwise.

It's like refusing to serve black people in a public restaurant. (in principle)

142 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:44:30pm

re: #138 Slumbering Behemoth

That's one of them Japanese animatronic thingys, innit?
/

Well,, at least now I know what I want for Christmas!

OUCH ,, oh ,, hi honey ,,, I didn't see you standing behind me!!

143 Usually refered to as anyways  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:47:32pm

Even our Prime Minister is caught up in the hype.

Gillard fires at 'illegal' WikiLeaks dump

Great headline, now here's the fine print.

The Federal Government has established a taskforce to comb through the masses of documents for national security implications, and the AFP is investigating whether any Australian laws have been broken.

Speaking today on 4BC radio, Ms Gillard said she condemned the website for publishing the documents.

"It's a grossly irresponsible thing to do, and an illegal thing to do," she said.

Julia, I'm disappointed.

144 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:47:45pm

re: #142 sattv4u2

I bet if you tell your wife that it can cook, clean, and draw a pay check, she'd have no problem with it. Hell, she'd probably boot you out just to get one.
/

145 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:48:25pm

re: #144 Slumbering Behemoth

I bet if you tell your wife that it can cook, clean, and draw a pay check, she'd have no problem with it. Hell, she'd probably boot you out just to get one.
/

I already DO all those!!

146 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:48:36pm

re: #141 Fozzie Bear

If they offer a service free to the public under a certain set of terms, there are definitely laws in place to ensure that they must do so without respect to content, unless the licence specifically states otherwise.

It's like refusing to serve black people in a public restaurant. (in principle)

I thought about that and I really can't come up with anything right now. But if that's the case then if I had an atheist website I would be forced to let it be infiltrated by Christian evangelists no? Or if I had a punk rock/BDSM site then I would be forced to allow sexual puritans and so-cons become members. There is no right to that as far as I understand with the internet. But it was in many ways a part of the Fairness Doctrine. So then we could also ask what then if we extend it and then forcing Rachel Maddow to allow equal access to the like of Rush Limbaugh?

147 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:49:06pm

re: #141 Fozzie Bear

My point is it really is a first amendment issue, at least in some respects. EC2 (Amazon's cloud) is a lot like youtube in the sense that anyone can put something in the cloud. Should they be removing content arbitrarily at the behest of the federal government? Should at least a specific criminal charge be needed? These are relevant questions, and I think this could potentially set a bad precedent.

Does that make sense?

148 yasharki  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:49:21pm

Full-Scale Replica Of Noah's Ark Planned for outside Cincinnati:

[Link: religion.blogs.cnn.com...]

149 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:50:02pm

re: #148 yasharki

Full-Scale Replica Of Noah's Ark Planned for outside Cincinnati:

[Link: religion.blogs.cnn.com...]

Shovel Ready Jobs (hey ,, someone has to clean up the animal poop!!)

150 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:51:29pm

re: #147 Fozzie Bear

My point is it really is a first amendment issue, at least in some respects. EC2 (Amazon's cloud) is a lot like youtube in the sense that anyone can put something in the cloud. Should they be removing content arbitrarily at the behest of the federal government? Should at least a specific criminal charge be needed? These are relevant questions, and I think this could potentially set a bad precedent.

Does that make sense?

It makes sense, but I still think the server, much like an individual site, can accept or deny content. Take LGF for example. Most things are allowed, some are not and are trashed as soon as they appear

151 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:52:26pm

re: #147 Fozzie Bear

re: #150 sattv4u2

It makes sense, but I still think the server, much like an individual site, can accept or deny content. Take LGF for example. Most things are allowed, some are not and are trashed as soon as they appear

and rightfully so, imho! (btw)

152 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:53:37pm

Wikileaks' Assange in UK, police know where: report


Wikileaks website founder Julian Assange is in Britain and police know his whereabouts but have refrained so far from acting on an international warrant for his arrest, a British newspaper said on Thursday.
153 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:53:40pm

What about Juan Williams/NPR vs. Wikileaks/Amazon?

154 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:53:49pm

re: #115 WindUpBird

Actually, if it's released, if it's already leaked and turned loose, then yes, I believe one does have a right. it's out there, it's been set loose, it's on the internet. I don't think it's a good idea that it was released, I certainly don't think Assauge is some hero, but once Pandora's Box is opened, and it clearly has been, then absolutely. I have a right to see it. People on LGF are posting stuff from the leaks constantly. it's here, it's news.

That's the problem with the internet, and being able to access the internet from anywhere in the world. America doesn't run the world. Shit will leak. It happens. Now, if Wikileaks can't find a server? Then they can't find a server. They don't have a right to an Amazon cloud server. But it's the internet. There's always web servers somewhere in the world. And if not servers, then emails. if not emails then FTP sites. if not FTP sites, then flash drives.

Meanwhile, I'm going to go listen to some music that apparently causes me to massacre high school students or something.

This is what makes America so awesome, pragmatism and principles. We don't aspire to emulate the Great Firewall of China, which continues to censor access to leaked secret materials like The Tienanmen Papers. Trying to wrestle the demons back in the box is like screaming at the wind, an exercise in abject futility on top of being totally antithetical to our ideals.

155 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:54:02pm

re: #150 sattv4u2

It makes sense, but I still think the server, much like an individual site, can accept or deny content. Take LGF for example. Most things are allowed, some are not and are trashed as soon as they appear

This issue would be a lot hairier if it had been via contract that they were hosted, rather than by a service offered anonymously to the public. EC2 is as much a protocol as it is a service, so it's not like Amazon normally exerts any control at all over the cloud. This is an exceptional act, to intervene in the functioning of a protocol.

156 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:54:23pm

re: #148 yasharki

Full-Scale Replica Of Noah's Ark Planned for outside Cincinnati:

[Link: religion.blogs.cnn.com...]

i hope they remembered to include the dinosaurs from the creationist museum

157 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:54:43pm

re: #148 yasharki

Full-Scale Replica Of Noah's Ark Planned for outside Cincinnati:

[Link: religion.blogs.cnn.com...]

Ah, but will it be big enough to hold two of every animal? The billions of tons of food those animals would need to eat? The food needed to feed to other animal's future food ('cuz carnivores need to eat meat, and that meat needs to eat too, so we're really talking about way more than two of every animal here)? And will it also have enough storage space for the billions of gallons of fresh water that would be needed?

Are there even enough trees on a single planet to build a boat that big?

158 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:55:17pm

re: #157 Slumbering Behemoth

Ah, but will it be big enough to hold two of every animal? The billions of tons of food those animals would need to eat? The food needed to feed to other animal's future food ('cuz carnivores need to eat meat, and that meat needs to eat too, so we're really talking about way more than two of every animal here)? And will it also have enough storage space for the billions of gallons of fresh water that would be needed?

Are there even enough trees on a single planet to build a boat that big?

Seven of every animal.

159 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:55:22pm

re: #157 Slumbering Behemoth

It comes with a shrink ray. It's actually only a 10 foot boat.

160 funky chicken  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:55:23pm

re: #15 cliffster

this is why I live in an HOA neighborhood.


OK, that's really funny.

161 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:55:36pm

re: #153 Gus 802

What about Juan Williams/NPR vs. Wikileaks/Amazon?

I'll take Williams/NPR ,, but you have to give me a field goal!

162 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:55:41pm

re: #155 Fozzie Bear

This issue would be a lot hairier if it had been via contract that they were hosted, rather than by a service offered anonymously to the public. EC2 is as much a protocol as it is a service, so it's not like Amazon normally exerts any control at all over the cloud. This is an exceptional act, to intervene in the functioning of a protocol.

Then an alternative for Wikileaks would be a .org or .edu site. That would give them more legal footing.

163 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:56:10pm

re: #161 sattv4u2

I'll take Williams/NPR ,, but you have to give me a field goal!

I'll take Juan Williams for 500 Alex.

//

164 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:56:33pm

re: #143 ozbloke

WikiLeaks' Julian Assange: How much trouble is he in?
They could change him with espionage.

165 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:56:48pm

re: #153 Gus 802

What about Juan Williams/NPR

Racist.

Wikileaks/Amazon?

Racist and nativist.
///11ty

166 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:56:48pm

re: #158 Walter L. Newton

Seven of every animal.

Seven pairs of each animal (the clean ones).

167 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:57:05pm

re: #163 Gus 802

I'll take Juan Williams for 500 Alex.

//

"Who cashed in BIGTIME on getting fired?"

168 TedStriker  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:57:28pm

re: #115 WindUpBird

Actually, if it's released, if it's already leaked and turned loose, then yes, I believe one does have a right. it's out there, it's been set loose, it's on the internet. I don't think it's a good idea that it was released, I certainly don't think Assauge is some hero, but once Pandora's Box is opened, and it clearly has been, then absolutely. I have a right to see it. People on LGF are posting stuff from the leaks constantly. it's here, it's news.

That's the problem with the internet, and being able to access the internet from anywhere in the world. America doesn't run the world. Shit will leak. It happens. Now, if Wikileaks can't find a server? Then they can't find a server. They don't have a right to an Amazon cloud server. But it's the internet. There's always web servers somewhere in the world. And if not servers, then emails. if not emails then FTP sites. if not FTP sites, then flash drives.

Meanwhile, I'm going to go listen to some music that apparently causes me to massacre high school students or something.

You're right...we can't put the genie back in the bottle on this. The main thing is that it never should happened in the first place and the people responsible for the theft and release of this classified info (that had not been properly redacted, from what I've heard) should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of US and international law. The deal with Assange, an Australian citizen, is a sticky wicket, but one that should be pursued through whatever legal and diplomatic channels the US has at its disposal; Bradley Manning, being an American citizen and a (soon-to-be former) Army soldier, is most likely well and truly fucked for his role in purloining all of that classified material and passing it off to Assange and WikiLeaks. For what it's worth, I hope Manning spends the better part of the rest of his life breaking big rocks into smaller rocks at Leavenworth.

Last, but not least, the commanders in Manning's unit and those in the Pentagon who approved Manning's apparently far-ranging access to classified info (far and above what someone in his position should have been able to access, IMO) and who didn't follow proper OPSEC procedures to prevent all this classified info from getting out in the wild (a CD/DVD burner on a classified machine without proper access control? WTF!?!) should have their heads roll.

169 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:58:10pm

re: #166 wrenchwench

Seven pairs of each animal (the clean ones).

I meant pairs... I just assume everyone has read their scriptures.

170 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:58:19pm

re: #158 Walter L. Newton

Seven of every animal.

You'd need way more than that to feed the carnivores. And we haven't even gotten to bugs, or the animals that eat bugs, or the bugs that eat bugs.

We may have to build this boat in outer space.

171 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:58:30pm

K Kiddies

BBL (from work)

Time for The Middle, a nap, Modern Family, a nap and then the long quiet drive to work!

172 austin_blue  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 4:59:32pm

re: #92 Walter L. Newton

I don't care WHO the EFF are, I don't care in this case what Liebermann does or doesn't do... my agrument was with this statement...

""This certainly implicates First Amendment rights to the extent that web hosts may, based on direct or informal pressure, limit the materials the American public has a First Amendment right to access," Bankston told TPM."

Now... tell me... Americans have a first amendment right to this material... simple question, yes/no..

Walter;

If the US CommSec is so porous- almost a decade after 9/11- that an Army NonComm can download this intel on a thumb-drive and it is being displayed on a server set out of Sweden for all the world to see, then yes, the citizen's of said US should have as much right to view it as the rest of the world.

Don't get me wrong, I think it is a foul thing to do, but that cow is already out of that barn.

173 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:00:01pm

re: #168 talon_262

You're right...we can't put the genie back in the bottle on this. The main thing is that it never should happened in the first place and the people responsible for the theft and release of this classified info (that had not been properly redacted, from what I've heard) should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of US and international law. The deal with Assange, an Australian citizen, is a sticky wicket, but one that should be pursued through whatever legal and diplomatic channels the US has at its disposal; Bradley Manning, being an American citizen and a (soon-to-be former) Army soldier, is most likely well and truly fucked for his role in purloining all of that classified material and passing it off to Assange and WikiLeaks. For what it's worth, I hope Manning spends the better part of the rest of his life breaking big rocks into smaller rocks at Leavenworth.

Last, but not least, the commanders in Manning's unit and those in the Pentagon who approved Manning's apparently far-ranging access to classified info (far and above what someone in his position should have been able to access, IMO) and who didn't follow proper OPSEC procedures to prevent all this classified info from getting out in the wild (a CD/DVD burner on a classified machine without proper access control? WTF!?!) should have their heads roll.

I've been thinking about Manning's commanders and such. Somehow I doubt we'll see anything come of that if Abu Ghraib is any example. Frankly, I think they should answer to higher ups and the UCMJ if applicable.

174 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:00:22pm

re: #169 Walter L. Newton

I meant pairs... I just assume everyone has read their scriptures.

Not I. Did read "Cat in the Hat", though.
:P

175 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:01:26pm

re: #152 Killgore Trout

Wikileaks' Assange in UK, police know where: report

The BS about his interpol warrant etc., is that it's not for what everyone is pissed at him about, but for a sex charge? I call BS. I call BS.

176 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:02:06pm

re: #164 Killgore Trout

WikiLeaks' Julian Assange: How much trouble is he in?
They could change him with espionage.

I hope they do, and I hope he is properly extradited, and given a public trial.

My concerns about this whole thing pivot around my concern for the free and open nature of the internet, and the honoring of legal precedent. I am extremely wary of calls to assassinate, calls to kidnap, or calls to attack the hosts. If he himself did something illegal, then there will be a law to charge him under, and other governments will hopefully hand him over, according to their own extradition laws.

This is about rule of law to me. i have big issues with things happening because of "pressure". That's not the way free societies tend to do things.

177 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:02:19pm

re: #172 austin_blue

Walter;

If the US CommSec is so porous- almost a decade after 9/11- that an Army NonComm can download this intel on a thumb-drive and it is being displayed on a server set out of Sweden for all the world to see, then yes, the citizen's of said US should have as much right to view it as the rest of the world.

Don't get me wrong, I think it is a foul thing to do, but that cow is already out of that barn.

So... if child porn is residing on a Swedish server... every American has a right to view it?

178 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:02:32pm

re: #166 wrenchwench

Seven pairs of each animal (the clean ones).

times at least two meals a day times forty days and forty nights

this is a biblical combinatorial explosion

179 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:02:56pm

As someone with family in Idaho, and whose husband's family comes out of Idaho...

May I point out that his neighbors are the ticked off ones who want it gone.

Not everyone in Idaho is a white supremacist. Some people are just quietly growing their potatoes, wishing the trolls would leave.

180 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:03:19pm

re: #175 Stanley Sea

Innocent until proven guilty, though I would hesitate to call BS. But we wont know unless there's a trial.

181 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:03:44pm

Quick! Someone call focus on the family!

//

*As an aside i think the call was ridiculous too, but this is the kinda stuff that winger freak outs are made of.

182 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:04:07pm

re: #179 EmmmieG

As someone with family in Idaho, and whose husband's family comes out of Idaho...

May I point out that his neighbors are the ticked off ones who want it gone.

Not everyone in Idaho is a white supremacist. Some people are just quietly growing their potatoes, wishing the trolls would leave.

We would never have a snowman like that here in Lower Alabama.

183 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:04:50pm

re: #172 austin_blue

Walter;

If the US CommSec is so porous- almost a decade after 9/11- that an Army NonComm can download this intel on a thumb-drive and it is being displayed on a server set out of Sweden for all the world to see, then yes, the citizen's of said US should have as much right to view it as the rest of the world.

Don't get me wrong, I think it is a foul thing to do, but that cow is already out of that barn.

What about security protocols or the president's security protocol for specific events? Do Americans have a right to know the location of all safe houses in the US? How to build a dirty bomb or instruction for thermonuclear weapon? Should Americans be able to download the software for an F-22 or F-35? All of this once they're leaked to the public?

184 austin_blue  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:04:51pm

re: #177 Walter L. Newton

So... if child porn is residing on a Swedish server... every American has a right to view it?

Ha ha ha ha!

That was a joke, right?

No? Errrm...

185 Usually refered to as anyways  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:05:04pm

re: #164 Killgore Trout

WikiLeaks' Julian Assange: How much trouble is he in?
They could change him with espionage.

The last two paragraphs are interesting.
This as you know isn't the first leak against the US govt by wikileaks.
I would suggest if they could confidently win against him they would have charged him.
I also presume, to chase him down would make the US look like it was 'hurting' and give the contents more weight.

186 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:06:23pm

re: #184 austin_blue

Ha ha ha ha!

That was a joke, right?

No? Errrm...

Well... there is child porn all over the internet... Don't get me wrong, I think it is foul, but that cow is already out of that barn.

Using your logic, every American should have a right to view that material.

187 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:07:09pm

re: #186 Walter L. Newton

Is it illegal to read any of this material from Wikileaks?

188 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:07:25pm

re: #184 austin_blue

Interestingly enough, a handful of years back my local little podunk PD's high tech crimes unit was instrumental in bringing down an international child porn ring, with some major players scum sucking shit bags residing in Sweden.

189 cliffster  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:07:34pm

re: #160 funky chicken

OK, that's really funny.

glad you like. it's true though, y'know.. first people let their grass get too long, then they park their cars in the street - next thing you know they're building KKK snowmen.

190 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:07:50pm

re: #175 Stanley Sea

The BS about his interpol warrant etc., is that it's not for what everyone is pissed at him about, but for a sex charge? I call BS. I call BS.

Probably. It might be a ploy to get him in custody and then have him extradited.

191 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:08:26pm

re: #183 Gus 802

What about security protocols or the president's security protocol for specific events? Do Americans have a right to know the location of all safe houses in the US? How to build a dirty bomb or instruction for thermonuclear weapon? Should Americans be able to download the software for an F-22 or F-35? All of this once they're leaked to the public?

American's should have access to whatever is already public information, and the government should secure itself properly. NONE of what happened is the fault of Wikileaks or Assange. This is entirely because of Manning.

Should we just reboot the internet now? You can't undo this. There isn't any way to.

If you decide then that the logical thing is to go after the first entity to publish something, then they will just move to IRC, or tor, or any number of other anonymous ways to distribute information. You can only stop leaks by stopping leakers. Going after Wikileaks, which is in this case effectively the press, is a very bad precedent, and dangerous to the health of a democracy.

192 funky chicken  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:08:33pm

re: #126 Walter L. Newton

My inquiry was not about the EFF, not about the leak, not about Assange, it was about ONE PART of the lawyers statement... a statement, that even if taken out of context of the current issue, still does not ring truthful with me... that's all I was talking about... wasn't it?

oh hell Walter, who knows?

193 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:08:36pm

re: #178 engineer dog

"Cat in the Hat" was more believable.

194 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:09:03pm

re: #186 Walter L. Newton

Well... there is child porn all over the internet... Don't get me wrong, I think it is foul, but that cow is already out of that barn.

Using your logic, every American should have a right to view that material.

Child porn is clearly illegal to view in the US. None of this leaked material is illegal to view in the US.

Your metaphor fails.

195 austin_blue  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:09:51pm

re: #183 Gus 802

What about security protocols or the president's security protocol for specific events? Do Americans have a right to know the location of all safe houses in the US? How to build a dirty bomb or instruction for thermonuclear weapon? Should Americans be able to download the software for an F-22 or F-35? All of this once they're leaked to the public?

Gus-

If that info has been lost and is available to Russian, Chinese, and Iranian security apparatchiks, what difference does it make?

Once that cow is out of that barn, it's already blown to hell.

If you are asking if I believe that Emergency War Order info and intel that is not on WikiLeaks should be released to the general public, then of course not. But this is already blown. Different thing.

196 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:09:53pm

re: #182 Decatur Deb

We would never have a snowman like that here in Lower Alabama.

Um, exactly how many snowmen do you have in Alabama?

197 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:09:57pm

re: #187 Obdicut

Is it illegal to read any of this material from Wikileaks?

US asks WikiLeaks to return all classified material...

[Link: economictimes.indiatimes.com...]

"We will not engage in a negotiation regarding the further release or dissemination of illegally obtained US government's classified materials," Harold Hongju Koh, the Legal Adviser at the State Department, said in a letter to Jennifer Robinson, Attorney for WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange.

Illegally obtained... classified... sounds like we don't have a right to view it to me?

198 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:10:19pm

re: #194 Fozzie Bear

Child porn is clearly illegal to view in the US. None of this leaked material is illegal to view in the US.

Your metaphor fails.

re: #197 Walter L. Newton

199 cliffster  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:10:45pm

re: #175 Stanley Sea

The BS about his interpol warrant etc., is that it's not for what everyone is pissed at him about, but for a sex charge? I call BS. I call BS.

I call disappeared, as in, he will be disappeared by next week. Then he'll become legendary right next to OBL. We haven't found him yet.. still looking for him...

200 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:11:18pm

re: #197 Walter L. Newton

Illegally obtained... classified... sounds like we don't have a right to view it to me?

Is any of the material illegal to view, Walter?

I didn't ask if we had a right to. I asked if it was illegal.

You see, child porn, which you compared it to, is illegal to view, copy, transmit, etc.

Is this information illegal for a citizen to view? To have a local copy on their computer of?

201 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:11:44pm

re: #80 Romantic Heretic

Which brings to mind one of my favorite Christmas specials.


[Video]Yes, I am a sick and twisted individual.

Woodland Critter Christmas.

Best South Park Christmas episode ever.

Hail Stan!

202 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:12:01pm

re: #200 Obdicut

Is any of the material illegal to view, Walter?

I didn't ask if we had a right to. I asked if it was illegal.

You see, child porn, which you compared it to, is illegal to view, copy, transmit, etc.

Is this information illegal for a citizen to view? To have a local copy on their computer of?

Do you have a legal right to view classified material?

203 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:12:01pm

re: #196 EmmmieG

Um, exactly how many snowmen do you have in Alabama?

Hey. We had snow last year. The neighbor kids came by to harvest ours for their 1-foot frosty.

204 cliffster  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:12:44pm

re: #199 cliffster

he might even make a few more statements, with a grey-streaked beard. a youtube call for international justice.

205 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:12:59pm

re: #202 Walter L. Newton

Nope. Of course not.

Completely irrelevant to the question I'm asking you, though.

Is this information illegal for a citizen to view? To have a local copy on their computer of?

206 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:13:00pm

re: #191 Fozzie Bear

American's should have access to whatever is already public information, and the government should secure itself properly. NONE of what happened is the fault of Wikileaks or Assange. This is entirely because of Manning.

Should we just reboot the internet now? You can't undo this. There isn't any way to.

If you decide then that the logical thing is to go after the first entity to publish something, then they will just move to IRC, or tor, or any number of other anonymous ways to distribute information. You can only stop leaks by stopping leakers. Going after Wikileaks, which is in this case effectively the press, is a very bad precedent, and dangerous to the health of a democracy.

I don't know who Assange is but I'm pretty sure I know where I would be sitting in right now if I got a hold of classified information and made it public. I'd be sitting in a prison.

207 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:13:59pm

re: #183 Gus 802

I tell you this: I can get on the internet and research how to build a meth lab, and how to cook the crap. That stuff is out there. I also know if I do that, law enforcement will be knocking on my door.

208 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:14:27pm

And if Assange was an Arab Muslim he would already be in prison. Something tells me that Assange is running free because of white privilege.

209 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:14:28pm

re: #205 Obdicut

Nope. Of course not.

Completely irrelevant to the question I'm asking you, though.

Is this information illegal for a citizen to view? To have a local copy on their computer of?

Classified = Available to authorized persons only, as for reasons of national security: a classified document.

210 cliffster  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:15:05pm

I like how situations like wikileaks makes instant international lawyers out of blog nerds all over the web...

211 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:15:12pm

re: #207 Slumbering Behemoth

I tell you this: I can get on the internet and research how to build a meth lab, and how to cook the crap. That stuff is out there. I also know if I do that, law enforcement will be knocking on my door.

if you look it up on the internet? or if you actually cook meth?

212 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:15:54pm

re: #210 cliffster

I like how situations like wikileaks makes instant international lawyers out of blog nerds all over the web...

Hey! I'm not an international lawyer. I'm a fighter pilot.

//

213 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:16:24pm

re: #211 WindUpBird

If I look it up. Law enforcement follows up on that shit, just like they follow up on people who look up other illegal things on the internet.

214 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:16:47pm

Isn't there actually literally a television show based entirely on the main characters cooking meth, portrayed in great detail? :D

215 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:17:17pm

re: #209 Walter L. Newton

I can see you'll continue to dodge the question forever.

216 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:17:27pm

re: #214 WindUpBird

Isn't there actually literally a television show based entirely on the main characters cooking meth, portrayed in great detail? :D

"Iron Meth" I think?

217 austin_blue  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:17:30pm

re: #186 Walter L. Newton

Well... there is child porn all over the internet... Don't get me wrong, I think it is foul, but that cow is already out of that barn.

Using your logic, every American should have a right to view that material.

They also have the right to go to jail if they download it to their computer. Looking is not downloading.

Example:

If I'm walking down the road and see a picture on the ground and it happens to be a piece of child porn, have I committed a felony just by looking at it? If I read the NYT and it contains publicly available info on previously classified material that cannot be considered classified any more because we fucking lost it, have *I* breached security? I don't think so. Let's apply the blame where it is appropriate.

Again, I think it is awful that the info was posted. But I think it is much worse that it was postable in the first place.

218 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:17:58pm

re: #212 Gus 802

Hey! I'm not an international lawyer. I'm a fighter pilot.

//

Fighter pilot?

I'm a starship navigator who speaks eight languages, has traveled to 15 different star systems, can fix a hyperdrive in mid flight, and can cook a mean omelet from the eggs of the endangered huvu-bird of the planet Ramalus.

Fighter pilot. Sheesh.

219 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:18:13pm

re: #218 EmmmieG

Fighter pilot?

I'm a starship navigator who speaks eight languages, has traveled to 15 different star systems, can fix a hyperdrive in mid flight, and can cook a mean omelet from the eggs of the endangered huvu-bird of the planet Ramalus.

Fighter pilot. Sheesh.

Show off! /

220 cliffster  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:18:28pm

re: #212 Gus 802

Hey! I'm not an international lawyer. I'm a fighter pilot.

//

I'm an underwear model

221 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:18:50pm

re: #213 Slumbering Behemoth

If I look it up. Law enforcement follows up on that shit, just like they follow up on people who look up other illegal things on the internet.

if you say so. I've been looking up illegal stuff on the internet for ten years, because I'm curious. Nobody's knocked on my door yet. I'm not interested in running a meth lab, but I am sorta into the freakonomics-style curiosity of how underground/illegal economies in America work *shrug*

But then again, I have no real criminal record, worst thing I've ever been charged with was negligent driving 16 years ago ;-)

222 Nervous Norvous  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:18:53pm

re: #220 cliffster

I'm an underwear model

I'm Spartacus!

223 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:19:26pm

re: #216 Walter L. Newton

"Iron Meth" I think?

I'm thinking of this show: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

224 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:19:26pm

re: #206 Gus 802

I don't know who Assange is but I'm pretty sure I know where I would be sitting in right now if I got a hold of classified information and made it public. I'd be sitting in a prison.

That's because you are American. The classification of the documents is meaningless outside the US.

225 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:20:19pm

Also, IIRC, I think there's some incredibly detailed instructions on how to make explosives in the book Fight Club, which they changed for the movie to obscure the recipes.

226 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:20:28pm

re: #202 Walter L. Newton

Do you have a legal right to view classified material?

I own a copy of The Tienanmen Papers which are classified material, a right I wouldn't have if I lived in China, a country with policies on access to information that you seem to be advocating.

What is the end game of your plan here except to make the US a global laughingstock, with a population deliberately walled off from already leaked, readily available information through an attempt to enforce ignorance?

227 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:20:38pm

re: #214 WindUpBird

Isn't there actually literally a television show based entirely on the main characters cooking meth, portrayed in great detail? :D

I've never seen it, but I imagine it would be a lot like the stuff on McGyver. They intentionally left out a lot of components/ingredients and steps in all of McGyver's contraptions should anyone be tempted to replicate them.

228 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:20:47pm

re: #209 Walter L. Newton

Classified = Available to authorized persons only, as for reasons of national security: a classified document.

Yes, but the illegality of viewing it unauthorized is dubious. The illegality of leaking it in the first place is certain.

229 Bubblehead II  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:20:58pm

re: #3 JasonA

You know, I wouldn't mind it so much if they all stayed in Idaho.

No, We don't want these sick bastards here. As the only (to my knowledge) Idahoan here, I can only speak for myself. But I do firmly believe that this attitude is rejected by most Idahoans.

230 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:21:01pm

re: #226 goddamnedfrank

I own a copy of The Tienanmen Papers which are classified material, a right I wouldn't have if I lived in China, a country with policies on access to information that you seem to be advocating.

What is the end game of your plan here except to make the US a global laughingstock, with a population deliberately walled off from already leaked, readily available information through an attempt to enforce ignorance?

yes

231 Nervous Norvous  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:21:17pm

re: #226 goddamnedfrank

I own a copy of The Tienanmen Papers which are classified material, a right I wouldn't have if I lived in China, a country with policies on access to information that you seem to be advocating.

What is the end game of your plan here except to make the US a global laughingstock, with a population deliberately walled off from already leaked, readily available information through an attempt to enforce ignorance?

Ignorance is all the conservatives have got anymore.

232 TedStriker  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:22:07pm

re: #191 Fozzie Bear

American's should have access to whatever is already public information, and the government should secure itself properly. NONE of what happened is the fault of Wikileaks or Assange. This is entirely because of Manning.

Should we just reboot the internet now? You can't undo this. There isn't any way to.

If you decide then that the logical thing is to go after the first entity to publish something, then they will just move to IRC, or tor, or any number of other anonymous ways to distribute information. You can only stop leaks by stopping leakers. Going after Wikileaks, which is in this case effectively the press, is a very bad precedent, and dangerous to the health of a democracy.

I see what you're saying about the DoD preventing the leaks before they happen being the only good defense against people like Assange and WikiLeaks wanting to put all of our government business out in the street, good or bad, but I vehemently disagree with any attempts to put Assange and WikiLeaks in the category of "journalists".

233 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:23:04pm

Yeah, now I gotta go actually cook some food.

Remember--noradsanta.org

234 funky chicken  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:23:21pm

re: #200 Obdicut

Is any of the material illegal to view, Walter?

I didn't ask if we had a right to. I asked if it was illegal.

You see, child porn, which you compared it to, is illegal to view, copy, transmit, etc.

Is this information illegal for a citizen to view? To have a local copy on their computer of?

Depending upon the classification level, possibly it would be illegal for Joe Citizen to possess this info.

235 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:23:27pm

re: #221 WindUpBird

if you say so. I've been looking up illegal stuff on the internet for ten years, because I'm curious. Nobody's knocked on my door yet. I'm not interested in running a meth lab, but I am sorta into the freakonomics-style curiosity of how underground/illegal economies in America work *shrug*

But then again, I have no real criminal record, worst thing I've ever been charged with was negligent driving 16 years ago ;-)

That's it, right there I think. But nothing you do on the internet is a secret. Never has been. And just because the law hasn't knocked on your door doesn't mean they haven't been watching you to make sure you're not using any of that stuff you looked up.

236 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:23:29pm

re: #218 EmmmieG

Fighter pilot?

I'm a starship navigator who speaks eight languages, has traveled to 15 different star systems, can fix a hyperdrive in mid flight, and can cook a mean omelet from the eggs of the endangered huvu-bird of the planet Ramalus.

Fighter pilot. Sheesh.

i can catch a frisbee with my teeth when my owner throws it

can i have some more kibble now?

237 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:23:38pm

re: #224 Fozzie Bear

That's because you are American. The classification of the documents is meaningless outside the US.

Yeah. OK, I don't agree with Assange. I think he should be in the slammer. I'm a pretty lenient person so I think he should get 10 years, tops. But, like you've all been saying he does have a good fallback position. He didn't get the information himself, he transmitted it. The onus is on Manning and the DOD who let the information out.

But then I think about receiving stolen property. If I receive or buy a stolen stereo can't I claim "I didn't know it was stolen" and demand to be released? Does classified government material qualify as intellectual property? Isn't it the same as making software available to the public for free?

238 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:23:46pm

re: #214 WindUpBird

Isn't there actually literally a television show based entirely on the main characters cooking meth, portrayed in great detail? :D

Breaking Bad on AMC. It is a good show.

239 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:24:06pm

re: #228 Fozzie Bear

Yes, but the illegality of viewing it unauthorized is dubious. The illegality of leaking it in the first place is certain.

It's possible. I'm not a lawyer, or an expert in international law. I would suspect that if something classified is illegal to own or possess, then reading it would also breach some law... maybe not.

WOuld publishing classified material automatically declassify it, by it's legal definition? Once again, I don't know for sure.

It just seems like if it was not meant for my eyes, then it's never meant for my eyes, and I am stepping over some bounds if I read it.

Maybe not.

240 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:29:57pm

re: #239 Walter L. Newton

It's possible. I'm not a lawyer, or an expert in international law. I would suspect that if something classified is illegal to own or possess, then reading it would also breach some law... maybe not.

WOuld publishing classified material automatically declassify it, by it's legal definition? Once again, I don't know for sure.

It just seems like if it was not meant for my eyes, then it's never meant for my eyes, and I am stepping over some bounds if I read it.

Maybe not.

Your question on automatic declassification: Definite No, but it might get stuff declassified quickly if someone pointed out how silly (and expensive) maintaining the classification would be.

On possession: It never occurred to me to ask our security guys, but the Pentagon Papers publication, which I still have on my shelf, makes me think that's also a No.

241 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:30:22pm

Gov. Rick Perry to make Chuck Norris an honorary Texas Ranger tomorrow.

Not. Kidding.
/Bruce Lee was robbed...

242 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:31:18pm

In about 2 years Bradley Manning will be rather busy making license plates aquarium gravel.

//

243 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:31:54pm

re: #241 Slumbering Behemoth

Gov. Rick Perry to make Chuck Norris an honorary Texas Ranger tomorrow.

Not. Kidding.
/Bruce Lee was robbed...

Can just one Honorary Ranger put down a Virtual Riot?

244 funky chicken  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:32:17pm

re: #206 Gus 802

I don't know who Assange is but I'm pretty sure I know where I would be sitting in right now if I got a hold of classified information and made it public. I'd be sitting in a prison.

My husband would most likely already be in Leavenworth, and he'd be there for a very long time. If he had somehow put this kind of info on his private laptop and brought it home, and I had found it and released it, we'd both be in prison.

Whoever obtained the stuff and sent it to Wikileaks needs to be found and imprisoned, IMHO.

245 jaunte  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:34:17pm

re: #241 Slumbering Behemoth

Gov. Rick Perry to make Chuck Norris an honorary Texas Ranger tomorrow.

Perry's warming up for the Tom DeLay pardon.
[Link: www.statesman.com...]

246 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:34:46pm

re: #94 jamesfirecat

What does the first amendment have to do with people having right to material?

First Amendment is about people's right to say whatever the f*** they want, not to know everything...

That's my thought as well. I don't think freedom of speech or of the press covers, say, stealing a bunch of people's bank account numbers and publishing them.

247 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:34:50pm

re: #206 Gus 802

I don't know who Assange is but I'm pretty sure I know where I would be sitting in right now if I got a hold of classified information and made it public. I'd be sitting in a prison.

Let's try it together... I'll work with you... I suspect between the both of us... we can find something to hack into... think about it... 15 minutes of fame... food and a bunk for life... comfy bank account with paychecks from Oprah and all the TV chat shows... maybe our own reality show... "Survival:Classified"

248 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:34:55pm

re: #239 Walter L. Newton

This is a messy area of 1st Amendment law. The person responsible for stealing the information is definitely out of bounds. The person who receives and distributes the material is on slightly more legal grounds if he had nothing to do with the actual taking of the information. Any person who reads it or even possesses it, who had absolutely nothing to do with the original taking or distributing? They are doing nothing illegal.

Child pornography is a special carve out. It is unique. You may possess the video of an actual murder, and as long as you had no role in it, then you have broken no law. It is against the law to possess child pornography not because it displays an illegal act, but because the Feds hope that by prosecuting the people who buy and trade images they can provide a disincentive to the actual producers by drying up their revenue source.

249 TedStriker  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:35:36pm

re: #244 funky chicken

My husband would most likely already be in Leavenworth, and he'd be there for a very long time. If he had somehow put this kind of info on his private laptop and brought it home, and I had found it and released it, we'd both be in prison.

Whoever obtained the stuff and sent it to Wikileaks needs to be found and imprisoned, IMHO.

Supposedly, Bradley Manning is the one who's give Assange and WikiLeaks all of their DoD classified stuff as of late...and right now, he's cooling his heels with the MPs, AFAIK.

250 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:35:37pm

re: #245 jaunte

Ya think he'll do it? My instinct says "yes".

251 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:35:59pm

re: #247 Walter L. Newton

Let's try it together... I'll work with you... I suspect between the both of us... we can find something to hack into... think about it... 15 minutes of fame... food and a bunk for life... comfy bank account with paychecks from Oprah and all the TV chat shows... maybe our own reality show... "Survival:Classified"

We can be bunk mates. You can be the guy from Brooklyn and I'll be the guy from New Jersey.

//

252 jaunte  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:36:05pm

re: #250 Slumbering Behemoth

I think so, too.

253 funky chicken  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:36:31pm

re: #242 Gus 802

In about 2 years Bradley Manning will be rather busy making license plates aquarium gravel.

//

And whoever the hell was the supervisor who gave the kid access to so much info....may still be in the Army at the eternal rank of E-1.

254 austin_blue  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:36:44pm

re: #242 Gus 802

In about 2 years Bradley Manning will be rather busy making license plates aquarium gravel.

//

Actually, dear little Bradley will be crucified. I do wonder if the folks who let a NonCom walk out with that level of data will also face the music. I hope so, but I'm guessing, not so much. Pity.

This is a monstrous clustrerfuck of a Del Rio dog fight.

255 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:37:12pm

re: #251 Gus 802

We can be bunk mates. You can be the guy from Brooklyn and I'll be the guy from New Jersey.

//

Wait... I lived in Jersey too... so... we can take turns on being the guy From Jersey... well, you can be the guy from Central Jersey, I can be the guy from North Jersey... we still need someone from the Jersey Shore.

256 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:37:12pm

re: #244 funky chicken
re: #239 Walter L. Newton
re: #237 Gus 802

So maybe if I go to a Der Spiegel link, and download Wikileaked classified documents and read them... I would be a felon?!?

Here we go-If I am an opponent of the releases and Wikileaks, am I a hypocrite for Paging stuff from it? I think I am.

Well crap.

257 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:37:21pm

re: #247 Walter L. Newton

..snip.. maybe our own reality show... "Survival:Classified"

More likely "Dancing With the Trustees".

258 austin_blue  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:37:30pm

re: #245 jaunte

Perry's warming up for the Tom DeLay pardon.
[Link: www.statesman.com...]

Gaah!!

259 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:39:29pm

re: #248 sizzleRI

Awesome post. Thank you!

260 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:40:06pm

re: #255 Walter L. Newton

Wait... I lived in Jersey too... so... we can take turns on being the guy From Jersey... well, you can be the guy from Central Jersey, I can be the guy from North Jersey... we still need someone from the Jersey Shore.

Whaddaya lookin' for? A "Snookie", or a "Situation"? I gots lots a models ta choose from.

261 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:40:16pm

re: #208 Gus 802

And if Assange was an Arab Muslim he would already be in prison. Something tells me that Assange is running free because of white privilege.

My first instinct was to say no to that. I'm thinking about it.

262 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:40:17pm

re: #248 sizzleRI

As an example of how messy this area can be, the Supreme Court a few years ago ruled that child pornography that is produced using entirely digitized images that look like real children, but are not, is legal to possess. How that squares with the idea chilling the market for real videos I do not understand.

263 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:40:21pm

re: #255 Walter L. Newton

Wait... I lived in Jersey too... so... we can take turns on being the guy From Jersey... well, you can be the guy from Central Jersey, I can be the guy from North Jersey... we still need someone from the Jersey Shore.

Someone with a tan, a six pack, gold chain, and lots of hair gel.

/

264 funky chicken  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:40:54pm

re: #254 austin_blue

Actually, dear little Bradley will be crucified. I do wonder if the folks who let a NonCom walk out with that level of data will also face the music. I hope so, but I'm guessing, not so much. Pity.

This is a monstrous clustrerfuck of a Del Rio dog fight.

PFC isn't even considered a noncom, is it? I'm not good on Army E ranks. My husband said he isn't either....2 striper, 3 striper aren't NCOs yet though. At least not in the AF.

265 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:41:18pm

re: #256 Rightwingconspirator

re: #239 Walter L. Newton
re: #237 Gus 802

So maybe if I go to a Der Spiegel link, and download Wikileaked classified documents and read them... I would be a felon?!?

Here we go-If I am an opponent of the releases and Wikileaks, am I a hypocrite for Paging stuff from it? I think I am.

Well crap.

Like I said in #239.. for sure... I don't know... when you see material that is tagged "for [someones] eyes only" what is the ramifications of someone unauthorized to be viewing/reading that material... have they broken some law... breached some protocol... as long as they didn't illegally obtain the original material themselves... then they did nothing wrong...

Like I said above... I don't know for sure. I would certainly like some "official" determination on the subject... and not some armchair lawyering... much like I may have been doing.

266 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:41:22pm

re: #261 SanFranciscoZionist

My first instinct was to say no to that. I'm thinking about it.

Yeah. I admit. I probably got a little carried away with that. Still something to think about.

267 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:42:21pm

re: #259 Floral Giraffe

Thanks! I am studying for 2nd year law school finals (or I should be) now, and I had a class this semester solely on the 1st Amendment. Really fascinating/aggravating area of jurisprudence. Nothing is settled.

268 funky chicken  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:42:31pm

re: #255 Walter L. Newton

Wait... I lived in Jersey too... so... we can take turns on being the guy From Jersey... well, you can be the guy from Central Jersey, I can be the guy from North Jersey... we still need someone from the Jersey Shore.

My son was born in South Jersey, kinda close to Philly. You guys would hafta look out for him, as he's a little soft to go to the joint.

269 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:42:39pm

re: #264 funky chicken

PFC isn't even considered a noncom, is it? I'm not good on Army E ranks. My husband said he isn't either...2 striper, 3 striper aren't NCOs yet though. At least not in the AF.

Army NCO barely kicks in at CPL, but not SPC (both E-4's).

270 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:42:55pm

re: #263 Gus 802

Someone with a tan, a six pack, gold chain, and lots of hair gel.

/

Yea... I've mentioned it before... I worked at the Jersey Shore for two seasons... at Seaside Heights... I would have never thought that some of those jerks would be material for a "reality" TV show. I just thought they were jerks.

271 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:44:44pm

This guy seems an interesting person.

272 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:45:58pm

re: #247 Walter L. Newton

Let's try it together... I'll work with you... I suspect between the both of us... we can find something to hack into... think about it... 15 minutes of fame... food and a bunk for life... comfy bank account with paychecks from Oprah and all the TV chat shows... maybe our own reality show... "Survival:Classified"

See, then the method of obtaining the information would be indisputably illegal. You be both the Manning and the Assange in that scenario, so to speak.

273 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:47:09pm

Here you go.

[Link: hqdainet.army.mil...]

Don't do it man!

274 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:47:55pm

re: #272 Fozzie Bear

See, then the method of obtaining the information would be indisputably illegal. You be both the Manning and the Assange in that scenario, so to speak.

You're absolutely sure? See my re: #265 Walter L. Newton...

I'm not for sure... but I don't have the answer... you do?

275 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:48:20pm

Boo!

[Link: authorize.hsin.gov...]

276 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:48:41pm

OK I better stop that.

277 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:49:45pm

re: #267 sizzleRI

Good skills for this blog. I kinda figured consumers of news are safe. Your point about child porn was really illuminating. And your point about the 1st Amendment as "nothing settled". Heh. At least that amendment gets rulings. I've been a 2nd Amendment advocate for three decades. Only recently got a Supreme ruling. :-)

278 cliffster  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:49:50pm

[6 weeks later]

haven't seen Gus around for awhile.. what's he up to?

279 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:50:29pm

re: #273 Gus 802

Here you go.

[Link: hqdainet.army.mil...]

Don't do it man!

That's what I am trying to understand... the message on that page "These restricted Tracking Systems are for specifically authorized personnel of the Department of the Army. If you are an authorized individual, you may continue. Otherwise you may be subject to disciplinary actions and other legal remedies."

Is that for simply viewing the material... the page... or for the act of accessing it?

280 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:50:55pm

re: #262 sizzleRI

As an example of how messy this area can be, the Supreme Court a few years ago ruled that child pornography that is produced using entirely digitized images that look like real children, but are not, is legal to possess. How that squares with the idea chilling the market for real videos I do not understand.

The laws regarding child porn are a mess. You can be liable for possessing images in your cache that somebody else viewed in your computer for instance. The concept of "possession" doesn't work in quite the same way with computers, because of the way they work.

281 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:51:16pm

re: #279 Walter L. Newton

That's what I am trying to understand... the message on that page "These restricted Tracking Systems are for specifically authorized personnel of the Department of the Army. If you are an authorized individual, you may continue. Otherwise you may be subject to disciplinary actions and other legal remedies."

Is that for simply viewing the material... the page... or for the act of accessing it?

BBIAB... someone is at the door (we don't get much company up in these mountains).

282 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:51:40pm

re: #279 Walter L. Newton

That's what I am trying to understand... the message on that page "These restricted Tracking Systems are for specifically authorized personnel of the Department of the Army. If you are an authorized individual, you may continue. Otherwise you may be subject to disciplinary actions and other legal remedies."

Is that for simply viewing the material... the page... or for the act of accessing it?

That's for trying to access, more a computer crime like going after SP's emails.

283 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:51:49pm

re: #250 Slumbering Behemoth

Ya think he'll do it? My instinct says "yes".


I have a really REALLY hard time believeing that guy will see a day of jail time

284 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:51:59pm

re: #274 Walter L. Newton

You're absolutely sure? See my re: #265 Walter L. Newton...

I'm not for sure... but I don't have the answer... you do?

Well, the hacking itself would be illegal, right?

285 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:52:10pm

re: #279 Walter L. Newton

That's what I am trying to understand... the message on that page "These restricted Tracking Systems are for specifically authorized personnel of the Department of the Army. If you are an authorized individual, you may continue. Otherwise you may be subject to disciplinary actions and other legal remedies."

Is that for simply viewing the material... the page... or for the act of accessing it?

Probably for logging in without being authorized. Logging in would therefore be considered hacking. That would be the beginning of the legal troubles.

286 Gus  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:53:04pm

re: #281 Walter L. Newton

BBIAB... someone is at the door (we don't get much company up in these mountains).

It's probably NCIS looking for me. /

287 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:53:13pm

re: #280 Fozzie Bear

The laws regarding child porn are a mess. You can be liable for possessing images in your cache that somebody else viewed in your computer for instance. The concept of "possession" doesn't work in quite the same way with computers, because of the way they work.

Password your computers *_*

288 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:54:03pm

re: #262 sizzleRI

Have you read any of Andrew Vachss novels?
Amazing man, very strong point of view on pornography and children's protections.

289 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:54:57pm

re: #277 Rightwingconspirator

Good skills for this blog. I kinda figured consumers of news are safe. Your point about child porn was really illuminating. And your point about the 1st Amendment as "nothing settled". Heh. At least that amendment gets rulings. I've been a 2nd Amendment advocate for three decades. Only recently got a Supreme ruling. :-)

Heh. I'm a Thirder. Do you have any idea how dead that one's been lately? WE LOSE OUR RIGHTS IF WE DO NOT EXERCISE THEM AGGRESSIVELY, MAN!

290 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:56:29pm

re: #289 SanFranciscoZionist

Heh. I'm a Thirder. Do you have any idea how dead that one's been lately? WE LOSE OUR RIGHTS IF WE DO NOT EXERCISE THEM AGGRESSIVELY, MAN!

I've quartered troops in my home. Good babysitters were hard to get in Seoul.

291 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:56:36pm

re: #286 Gus 802

It's probably NCIS looking for me. /

LOL!
But you're not there!

Youtube Video
292 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:57:35pm

re: #289 SanFranciscoZionist

Heh. I'm a Thirder. Do you have any idea how dead that one's been lately? WE LOSE OUR RIGHTS IF WE DO NOT EXERCISE THEM AGGRESSIVELY, MAN!

The 4th is already dead. Stick a fork in it.

293 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:58:02pm

re: #274 Walter L. Newton

Bartnicki v. Vopper, decided by SCOTUS in 2001 is quite on point here. In that case the Court held that federal and state anti-wiretap laws statutes cannot constitutionally be applied to a radio station that broadcasts the tape of an illegally intercepted phone call because the subject of the call was a matter of public concern and the radio station did not participate in the unlawful wiretap. They held this way even though the broadcaster knew the material was illegally obtained.

For the national security angle, I am pretty sure New York Times Co. v. United States; United States v. Washington Post Co. (the Pentagon papers cases) would apply.

294 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 5:59:30pm

re: #277 Rightwingconspirator

Finally incorporated! I was about to say the 2nd was the last one, but the 3rd Amendments still waits. That may be awhile, haha.

295 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 6:01:09pm

re: #288 Floral Giraffe

I haven't. Will put on the list of books to read over breaks! I no longer read for fun during semesters.

296 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 6:01:59pm

re: #289 SanFranciscoZionist

I swear, I posted mine before I saw yours. Seriously lady, you're always on point. Well, at least to me.

297 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 6:02:49pm

And, now dead. I lost reply control.

298 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 6:06:44pm

re: #295 sizzleRI

He's not easy to read. The story lines are great and the pace is good, but the subject matter is horrendous. Get them from the library, you won't want to read the books a second time. Still, they are life changing.
En Wikipedia.
(Doesn't do his work justice...)

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

299 funky chicken  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 6:08:43pm

re: #290 Decatur Deb

I've quartered troops in my home. Good babysitters were hard to get in Seoul.

Hey, the 3rd amendment says I can kick my husband out in the snow? Good to know :-).

300 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 6:11:34pm

re: #292 Fozzie Bear

The 4th is already dead. Stick a fork in it.

you can say that again

Curley: "the 4th is already-"

Moe: "shaddap you idiot!"

Curley: "but the man said i could say it again!"

301 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 6:15:33pm

re: #297 sizzleRI

And, now dead. I lost reply control.

I think there are adult diapers that can help with that.

302 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 6:35:48pm

re: #297 sizzleRI

And, now dead. I lost reply control.

hahaha happens to me all the time

303 Amory Blaine  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 6:46:45pm

re: #37 freetoken

Just because we haven't had enough yet...

Dancing Hot to Trot for Another Palin

Elizabeth Kucinich, I might even watch ;)

304 lostlakehiker  Wed, Dec 1, 2010 11:11:52pm

re: #115 WindUpBird

Actually, if it's released, if it's already leaked and turned loose, then yes, I believe one does have a right. it's out there, it's been set loose, it's on the internet. I don't think it's a good idea that it was released, I certainly don't think Assauge is some hero, but once Pandora's Box is opened, and it clearly has been, then absolutely. I have a right to see it. People on LGF are posting stuff from the leaks constantly. it's here, it's news.

That's the problem with the internet, and being able to access the internet from anywhere in the world. America doesn't run the world. Shit will leak. It happens. Now, if Wikileaks can't find a server? Then they can't find a server. They don't have a right to an Amazon cloud server. But it's the internet. There's always web servers somewhere in the world. And if not servers, then emails. if not emails then FTP sites. if not FTP sites, then flash drives.

Meanwhile, I'm going to go listen to some music that apparently causes me to massacre high school students or something.

You don't have a right to MAKE Amazon host the stuff.

305 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 1:20:29am

re: #304 lostlakehiker

You don't have a right to MAKE Amazon host the stuff.

of course! I known dudes who own webhosting companies. ;-) Each host has their own standards.

I'm talking about chilling effect, of senators who are known to make lives difficult for those who create culture. (when you blame a rock band for murders, you're an enemy of art) Senators like Liebermann cracking their knuckles and saying "maybe SOME people shouldn't host SOME kinds of art or media or content because MAYBE we'll have something HAPPEN TO YOU. maybe it's not illegal yet? Maybe we'll make it illegal."

306 William of Orange  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 3:04:10pm

Come on! Is it so difficult to punk these guys? Erect another snowman that's flipping the bird on the other snowman. Hahaha!!


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