LGF Poll: Obama’s Tax Cut Deal
Poll • Views: 28,509
Here are some simple questions to see where LGF readers stand on the deal between President Obama and the GOP to extend Bush-era tax cuts…
628 comments
1 |
SilentAlfa Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:21:48pm |
question 3 seems vague; do you mean the deal that actually was made, or to deal-making in general?
| 2 |
recusancy Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:21:56pm |
The last one should have a caveat "He should have started the process sooner so that the middle class couldn't have been taken hostage so easily".
| 3 |
blueraven Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:23:21pm |
re: #2 recusancy
The last one should have a caveat "
HeCongress should have started the process sooner so that the middle class couldn't have been taken hostage so easily".
FIFY
| 5 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:23:57pm |
Do you support or oppose President Obama making a deal with the Republican Party to extend tax cuts?
I very grudgingly voted yes on this question. Unemployment benefits needed to be extended. In the end, those who newly care about deficits in the Gomorrah Old Party, need to notice that revenue needs to come from somewhere.
If 90% of the wealth of this nation is concentrated in 10% of the populace, then it makes sense that 10% should pay more income tax.
| 6 |
Obdicut Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:25:01pm |
re: #2 recusancy
The last one should have a caveat "He should have started the process sooner so that the middle class couldn't have been taken hostage so easily".
Or "The legislators should have started the process sooner, because Obama isn't the Democratic Party".
He was fucking begging them to move on it before they went into a lame duck session.
He was begging them to move on it before the special elections, too.
| 7 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:25:57pm |
Where is the "After this deal do you support or oppose President Obama" button?
| 8 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:26:09pm |
No surprise there.
| 10 |
SilentAlfa Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:26:25pm |
re: #5 LudwigVanQuixote
I very grudgingly voted yes on this question. Unemployment benefits needed to be extended. In the end, those who newly care about deficits in the Gomorrah Old Party, need to notice that revenue needs to come from somewhere.
If 90% of the wealth of this nation is concentrated in 10% of the populace, then it makes sense that 10% should pay more income tax.
If President Obama hadn't budged, eventually the headlines would have said "Republicans stall unemployment benefits to cut taxes for the rich" at least on any reasonable news source.
| 11 |
Nervous Norvous Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:26:44pm |
re: #6 Obdicut
Or "The legislators should have started the process sooner, because Obama isn't the Democratic Party".
He was fucking begging them to move on it before they went into a lame duck session.
He was begging them to move on it before the special elections, too.
Democrats...able to drop the ball in even the most promising situations!
| 12 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:26:57pm |
| 13 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:28:23pm |
re: #10 SilentAlfa
If President Obama hadn't budged, eventually the headlines would have said "Republicans stall unemployment benefits to cut taxes for the rich" at least on any reasonable news source.
And therein lies the rub. The truth has been GOP talls everything for sake of politics. However you won't see such a truth on Fox, and 40% or more of America gets its news from them. Reasonable news reporting, or lack thereof is one of the biggest issues.
| 14 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:28:33pm |
re: #10 SilentAlfa
If President Obama hadn't budged, eventually the headlines would have said "Republicans stall unemployment benefits to cut taxes for the rich" at least on any reasonable news source.
Where might you find one with an audience >NPR?
| 15 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:28:41pm |
| 16 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:29:13pm |
I think this is the first time I have seen a poll here at LGF. This should be a good focal point for conversation.
Good idea, Charles.
| 17 |
palomino Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:29:15pm |
Notice that only one-third support extending the top 2% tax cut while two-thirds support the overall deal, despite the fact that it extends the cut for the top 2%. That's called pragmatism, which involves compromise.
It may not always be virtuous to proceed this way. But it is how most governing gets done.
| 18 |
blueraven Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:29:36pm |
re: #10 SilentAlfa
If President Obama hadn't budged, eventually the headlines would have said "Republicans stall unemployment benefits to cut taxes for the rich" at least on any reasonable news source.
So you are concerned with headlines instead of the fact that taxes could go up for the middle class? And maybe if this deal wasn't made, a permanent tax cut for the top 2% in the next congress?
| 19 |
Crimsonfisted Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:29:45pm |
I am working hard to be in the over 250,000 category. I want to keep the money I make, and I can decide where it goes to help my family, school, neighborhood, church. That's my thought anyways.
| 20 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:30:18pm |
re: #2 recusancy
The last one should have a caveat "He should have started the process sooner so that the middle class couldn't have been taken hostage so easily".
i always feel this way about this sort of question: support/oppose doesn't quite cover it all. They need a sliding scale-- of RaGe! More like:
1. He should have started the process sooner so that the middle class couldn't have been taken hostage so easily-- this shows that Obama isn't a fighter!
2. Obama is a SELLOUT! /firebagger
3. I'm mad but I reckon it's the only way he could to get unemployment extended for those who really need help, so okay.
I'l take 3. /
| 21 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:30:33pm |
re: #14 Decatur Deb
Where might you find one with an audience >NPR?
Daily Show?
(Wonder which audience is bigger actually...)
| 22 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:31:03pm |
I would have added one more category-
Do you support or oppose extending the Bush-era tax cuts for those making more than $500,000 a year?
I would not have supported extending the tax cuts for those earning 500k or above.
| 23 |
insanity police Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:31:17pm |
ROCKobamaHARDPLACE
Prez Obama was in a tough spot on this one.
| 24 |
Crimsonfisted Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:31:23pm |
re: #16 Fozzie Bear
I think this is the first time I have seen a poll here at LGF. This should be a good focal point for conversation.
Good idea, Charles.
Quite often we saw in the past a radio button "RON PAUL!!" It was funny for a while. A short while.
| 25 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:31:39pm |
re: #19 Crimsonfisted
I am working hard to be in the over 250,000 category. I want to keep the money I make, and I can decide where it goes to help my family, school, neighborhood, church. That's my thought anyways.
Keep in mind, you would have to make well over 250k for this to matter at all in your finances. If you make exactly 250k, there's absolutely no difference.
(Assuming the choice is between extending cuts for the under 250k bracket vs. extending the cuts for both above and below 250k.)
| 26 |
prairiefire Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:31:40pm |
re: #15 brookly red
well on the bright side at least both sides are talking to each other... I am cautiously optimistic.
That makes me worried.
| 27 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:31:52pm |
I polled "don't like" to the point of fact on #2. I'm truly not truly very sorry to go all Keynsian, and accept anything that puts money into circulation during a severe downturn.
| 28 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:31:57pm |
re: #20 iceweasel
i always feel this way about this sort of question: support/oppose doesn't quite cover it all. They need a sliding scale-- of RaGe! More like:
1. He should have started the process sooner so that the middle class couldn't have been taken hostage so easily-- this shows that Obama isn't a fighter!
2. Obama is a SELLOUT! /firebagger
3. I'm mad but I reckon it's the only way he could to get unemployment extended for those who really need help, so okay.I'l take 3. /
Be careful. You are sounding very pragmatic.
/
| 29 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:32:07pm |
re: #22 researchok
I would have added one more category-
I would not have supported extending the tax cuts for those earning 500k or above.
Bravo.
(Non sarcastic)
| 30 |
Crimsonfisted Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:32:21pm |
re: #25 Fozzie Bear
Keep in mind, you would have to make well over 250k for this to matter at all in your finances. If you make exactly 250k, there's absolutely no difference.
(Assuming the choice is between extending cuts for the under 250k bracket vs. extending the cuts for both above and below 250k.)
I hope I am not dead before I get there. We all must have goals!
| 31 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:32:42pm |
| 32 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:33:23pm |
| 33 |
SilentAlfa Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:33:55pm |
I think a lot of the tax debate misses a pretty big point: If tax cuts for those making $250,000 are not extended, those people still maintain the tax cut they have on the first $250,000. So if you are making $260,000, you get a tax increase on the last $10,000 and it won't break the bank at all. So technically speaking, tax cuts are extended for everybody even if they are only said to be extended for those making under $250,000.
| 34 |
simoom Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:34:22pm |
re: #2 recusancy
The last one should have a caveat "He should have started the process sooner so that the middle class couldn't have been taken hostage so easily".
Just a total guess on my part, but I have to imagine they've been making attempts at getting the votes together for a while now, but the bipartisan votes were never there. Maybe the one thing the could have done was the passing the under-$250,000 cut through reconciliation for 10 more years (since the original 2001 & 2003 cuts were passed through reconciliation), though perhaps there was some aversion to going that route since they railed against reconciliation being used for huge tax cuts during the Bush administration.
| 35 |
palomino Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:34:29pm |
re: #18 blueraven
So you are concerned with headlines instead of the fact that taxes could go up for the middle class? And maybe if this deal wasn't made, a permanent tax cut for the top 2% in the next congress?
This is Obama's dilemma. If he stands firm, he gets nothing substantive in the end, only the cheers of liberals who want to fight what they see as a moral fight. But moderates are disappointed because nothing gets done and it doesn't really make him look strong to fight a losing battle.
OTOH, if he compromises, the left base freaks out. Now he's got to bring them back in, which should be easy once some more gop targets present themselves.
| 36 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:34:31pm |
re: #29 jamesfirecat
Bravo.
(Non sarcastic)
Well, it's a number that makes sense (and would have raised over 80% of the tax revenue he was looking for).
I'll say one thing- what I resent most is the political theater surrounding this whole phony debate. We are being treated like children- and that does not bode well for either party.
| 37 |
prairiefire Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:34:48pm |
Per "First Read", "Bush tax cuts just 37% of total deal":[Link: firstread.msnbc.msn.com...]
| 38 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:35:17pm |
re: #33 SilentAlfa
I think a lot of the tax debate misses a pretty big point: If tax cuts for those making $250,000 are not extended, those people still maintain the tax cut they have on the first $250,000. So if you are making $260,000, you get a tax increase on the last $10,000 and it won't break the bank at all. So technically speaking, tax cuts are extended for everybody even if they are only said to be extended for those making under $250,000.
Yep. Yet another example of political malpractice by the DNC, imo. The tax cuts for the sub-250k brackets is in fact a tax cut for everyone, regardless of income. This point is barely being mentioned, let alone emphasized.
| 40 |
recusancy Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:38:20pm |
re: #34 simoom
Just a total guess on my part, but I have to imagine they've been making attempts at getting the votes together for a while now, but the bipartisan votes were never there. Maybe the one thing the could have done was the passing the under-$250,000 cut through reconciliation for 10 more years (since the original 2001 & 2003 cuts were passed through reconciliation), though perhaps there was some aversion to going that route since they railed against reconciliation being used for huge tax cuts during the Bush administration.
He should have made Repubs pay through messaging if he was making any attempts. He said he wanted to fight. Also, reconciliation wouldn't have worked.
| 41 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:38:34pm |
re: #39 lawhawk
The Zadroga 9/11 bill looks to be next on the Senate agenda.
I'd prefer DADT since I think that probably has a better chance of passing.
Didn't we already vote on this one once?
| 42 |
insanity police Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:38:39pm |
As to extending the tax cuts, I saw on t.v. last night that the tax breaks for those making over 1 million a year is over $100 K while the breaks for those under 250,000 are something like $1,500. Not sure if that is acurate. But if it is, the rich appear to be getting much more benefit.
How can the Republicans get away with extorting Obama into this extension of tax cuts for the rich (e.g. support tax cuts for the rich or no unemployment benefit extension and no tax breaks for those under $250,000)? One would think that the deficit hawks would be against extending the tax breaks for the rich because it makes it sooo much harder to balance the budget with such a shortfall, and that the tea partiers would be against giving the rich such a huge benefit that most of them will not benefit from.
It appears that the Republican party is merely paying lip service to the tea partiers and the fiscal conservatives, but is actually being ruled by the rich and monied interests.
| 43 |
recusancy Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:40:15pm |
I highly recommend Ezra Klien's blogging from the last few days for good details and explanations on things regarding this deal.
| 44 |
Obdicut Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:40:16pm |
re: #22 researchok
I think there would be a lot of support for creating a few more brackets, and it would be extremely useful.
| 45 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:41:54pm |
funny... the market closed flat. I would have expected a reaction one way or the other.
| 46 |
philosophus invidius Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:41:57pm |
How hypocritical are the Republicans for supporting this when they claim that deficit is the #1 priority? I guess #2, after tax cuts for rich people.
| 47 |
Velvet Elvis Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:41:57pm |
This pretty much sets in stone that Obama will face some kind of primary opposition in 2012.
| 48 |
Velvet Elvis Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:42:32pm |
re: #47 Conservative Moonbat
This pretty much sets in stone that Obama will face some kind of primary opposition in 2012.
Which is why the republicans are doing it.
| 49 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:42:55pm |
re: #44 Obdicut
I think there would be a lot of support for creating a few more brackets, and it would be extremely useful.
////What, you mean so that the upper middle class and people making tens of millions of dollars don't get taxed at the same rate for all of their income? THAT'S CLASS WARFAIR!
| 50 |
insanity police Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:43:26pm |
re: #47 Conservative Moonbat
This pretty much sets in stone that Obama will face some kind of primary opposition in 2012.
Yeah, by Dennis Kucinich. I doubt any viable democrat opponent will surface.
| 51 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:43:27pm |
In the end, my ire toward the DNC for doing what I perceive as caving would be better directed at our completely broken news media. There's no sense of responsibility to get the story right, and to correct those outlets that get it so horribly wrong so often.
Until there are news media sources that wield influence with the public that are willing to say "Fox (or insert name of other outlet here) is lying to you", then back it up with a thorough and reasoned explanation of why, we're fucked. We can't operate rationally if we continue to act, as a culture, like everybody is entitled to their own reality.
| 52 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:43:36pm |
re: #47 Conservative Moonbat
This pretty much sets in stone that Obama will face some kind of primary opposition in 2012.
Bah?
Hillary doesn't look likely to run and after her who could take Obama?
| 53 |
Obdicut Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:43:55pm |
It is hilarious to me that the Democrats, instead of touting what they've achieved in this compromise, are only focusing on what they've lost.
The Republicans, meanwhile, are touting what they've won, and claiming victory.
The Democrats really, really, really need to celebrate achievements more, even when they're not perfect. People will vote for you if they feel like you achieved something. They're not going to vote for Democrats because the GOP were mean blocky obstructionists. The last election proved that.
| 54 |
philosophus invidius Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:44:16pm |
re: #47 Conservative Moonbat
This pretty much sets in stone that Obama will face some kind of primary opposition in 2012.
Doubt it. Only if his overall approval rating gets really low.
| 55 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:44:47pm |
re: #54 philosophus invidius
Doubt it. Only if his overall approval rating gets really low.
Is he still beating Reagen?
| 56 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:45:11pm |
re: #47 Conservative Moonbat
This pretty much sets in stone that Obama will face some kind of primary opposition in 2012.
ironically if that happens he will absolutely correct in blaming Bush.
| 58 |
recusancy Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:45:52pm |
| 59 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:46:30pm |
re: #57 b_sharp
Are you talking about beating a dead horse?
No a while back a guy posted a chart that compared Obama's approval raitings to those of Reagan's based on how many days into their terms they were...
| 60 |
Nick Schroeder Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:46:36pm |
While I'm not averse to compromise, the Democrats tend to compromise to a degree that, in my opinion, is bad for the country long-term. The natural byproduct of their unwillingness to take a stand pretty much ensures that the country notches ever-further right.
I wish that, occasionally, and especially when the middle class is involved, they would behave with the tenacity that the right is most notable for. Not doing so also lends to the (largely accurate) perception that they are pussies.
All this shit today really does is re-enforce the notion that this country is a plutocracy run by greedy idiots at the expense of the middle class and future generations. Meh.
| 61 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:47:06pm |
re: #55 jamesfirecat
Is he still beating Reagen?
The economy isn't likely to be anywhere near as healthy in 2012 as it was in 1986. The fundamentals right now are far, far worse than at any time under Reagan. That's not good for Obama, needless to say.
| 62 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:48:30pm |
re: #61 Fozzie Bear
The economy isn't likely to be anywhere near as healthy in 2012 as it was in 1986. The fundamentals right now are far, far worse than at any time under Reagan. That's not good for Obama, needless to say.
On the flip side Republicans might be running someone even less impressive than Walter Mondale ....
| 63 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:49:37pm |
re: #62 jamesfirecat
On the flip side Republicans might be running someone even less impressive than Walter Mondale ...
Likely true. But if Obama continues to ignore the DNC base, we might end up with that less-than-impressive candidate as president, at a time when we can't afford much more stupidity.
| 64 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:50:06pm |
re: #54 philosophus invidius
Seriously??
No democrat's going to primary Obama: the nuance-monitors couldn't help themselves.
| 65 |
webevintage Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:50:42pm |
re: #20 iceweasel
i always feel this way about this sort of question: support/oppose doesn't quite cover it all. They need a sliding scale-- of RaGe! More like:
1. He should have started the process sooner so that the middle class couldn't have been taken hostage so easily-- this shows that Obama isn't a fighter!
2. Obama is a SELLOUT! /firebagger
3. I'm mad but I reckon it's the only way he could to get unemployment extended for those who really need help, so okay.I'l take 3. /
I'll take 3...but you really need a ELEVENTY WHERE'S MAI PONYS!!!!!! too.
| 66 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:50:49pm |
re: #59 jamesfirecat
Comparing Obama to Reagan?
LOL.
' It's mourning in America '.
| 67 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:50:51pm |
re: #63 Fozzie Bear
Likely true. But if Obama continues to ignore the DNC base, we might end up with that less-than-impressive candidate as president, at a time when we can't afford much more stupidity.
If the Republicans run someone stupid enough the DNC base will motivate itself out of self preservation/fear.
| 68 |
Ming Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:50:59pm |
I was hoping for the opposite: let the tax cuts expire, and do not renew unemployment benefits. There are plenty of people who are out of work, trying to find work, and who do not qualify for unemployment benefits. I was one of them in 2009! The deal would seem to increase the deficit. Still, I admire Obama's willingness to compromise and to work with the Republicans. This deal is NOT gridlock, and that may be a good thing. I hope Congress will now be able to get a few things done, like ratify the South Korea trade treaty, repeal Don't Ask Don't Tell, and ratify the START treaty. So the President may have done the right thing with this deal.
| 69 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:51:31pm |
re: #66 tradewind
Comparing Obama to Reagan?
LOL.
' It's mourning in America '.
Hey lets compare popularity levels, last time I checked Obama was doing better than Reagan was this far into his term.
Judges?
| 70 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:51:57pm |
re: #64 tradewind
Seriously??
No democrat's going to primary Obama: the nuance-monitors couldn't help themselves.
They don't have to primary him. Someone running to the left of him under a third party could easily destroy Obama's chances.
| 71 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:52:53pm |
re: #69 jamesfirecat
Whatever you say.
But I can't imagine Reagan falling into the trap Obama stepped in so readily.
The Bush tax cuts were codified with the understanding that repealing them was going to be next to impossible.
See what happens two years from now.
It won't be any easier.
| 72 |
Obdicut Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:53:03pm |
re: #70 Fozzie Bear
They don't have to primary him. Someone running to the left of him under a third party could easily destroy Obama's chances.
I think people remember what happened with Nader a little too well for them to be that stupid again so quickly.
| 73 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:53:21pm |
re: #70 Fozzie Bear
They don't have to primary him. Someone running to the left of him under a third party could easily destroy Obama's chances.
That could happen yeah.
On the other hand if Mitt Romney runs as a Republican and Sarah Palin as a member of the Conservative/Constitution/Teaparty party then Obama can put up his feet, pull out a pipe and count down the days to reelection....
| 74 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:53:27pm |
re: #72 Obdicut
I think people remember what happened with Nader a little too well for them to be that stupid again so quickly.
Apparently, tradewind doesn't remember.
| 75 |
Obdicut Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:53:39pm |
re: #71 tradewind
The Bush tax cuts weren't codified. They were set to expire. That's the opposite of codified, and they didn't need to be repealed.
| 78 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:54:20pm |
re: #71 tradewind
Whatever you say.
But I can't imagine Reagan falling into the trap Obama stepped in so readily.
The Bush tax cuts were codified with the understanding that repealing them was going to be next to impossible.
See what happens two years from now.
It won't be any easier.
What trap?
Obama didn't get what he wanted but he got unemployment and a estate tax.
Besides, its the Democrats in the senate who stepped into this trap not Obama....
| 79 |
simoom Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:54:26pm |
re: #35 palomino
This is Obama's dilemma. If he stands firm, he gets nothing substantive in the end, only the cheers of liberals who want to fight what they see as a moral fight.
I'll add that many on the left have shown that they don't really reward moral "victories" where the administration went down fighting (even though this is what they demand). A good example was the attempts to close down Gitmo.
The admin fought for it in the public sphere, fought for it diplomatically (pressuring other countries to help empty it out [as the wikileaks cable release demonstrated]) and attempted to do what they needed to do domestically (build a new prison, release some of the prisoners into the US, start trying detainees in federal courts).
The R's went all out fear-mongering the issue (the Cheneys taking the lead), not many Dems backed up the admin in appearances in the media and it was soon all but finished when the NY Dems walked-back their original support. On hearing the Admin planned to resettle some of the Uhigars to US soul the Senate preempted the move by voting 90 to 6 in favor of blocking Gitmo detainee transfers to the US. They then voted 98 to 0 against funding the proposed US supermax prison for convicted detainees.
So the admin went to the mat on closing Gitmo and they completely lost that political fight, burning lots of political capital in the process. Still, next to no one on the left gives them credit for fighting hard for their policy, and much of that time fighting alone. Instead on forums like Daily Kos the narrative is practically: 'Wimpy Obama didn't lift a finger to close Gitmo'.
| 80 |
prairiefire Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:54:30pm |
| 81 |
webevintage Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:54:42pm |
re: #63 Fozzie Bear
Likely true. But if Obama continues to ignore the DNC base, we might end up with that less-than-impressive candidate as president, at a time when we can't afford much more stupidity.
I don't think he is ignoring us/them, but i think he also thinks it is more important to get things done that can be done then it is to keep the base happy. In the end he is the President of the "reality" based America that need unemployment and the middle class tax cut extended.
There are not enough dems willing to vote on for the middle class tax cut.
As proof one only has to look at the vote on Saturday where the Senate could not even vote to bring the House bill to a vote.
| 82 |
Velvet Elvis Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:54:54pm |
| 83 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:55:00pm |
re: #45 brookly red
funny... the market closed flat. I would have expected a reaction one way or the other.
Yeah, I was expecting more of a reaction too. Maybe everybody is waiting for Ireland to vote on their bailout package.
| 84 |
brownbagj Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:55:18pm |
Charles, your poll is incomplete. Where do I get to choose Ron Paul?
/
| 85 |
webevintage Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:55:23pm |
| 86 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:55:41pm |
re: #73 jamesfirecat
You forgot ' and if Basil Marceaux becomes a factor '//.
Palin needs the perception that she might run to enhance/keep the power she already possesses.
She's not going to run.
| 87 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:55:48pm |
| 89 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:56:20pm |
What the hell happened with the poll? It just flipped.
Now the whiners are ahead.
| 90 |
What, me worry? Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:56:29pm |
| 91 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:56:38pm |
re: #86 tradewind
You forgot ' and if Basil Marceaux becomes a factor '//.
Palin needs the perception that she might run to enhance/keep the power she already possesses.
She's not going to run.
I'm not saying it is going to happen but if it did and as a third party candidate you agree that Obama would be a shoe in for president yes?
| 92 |
Obdicut Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:57:30pm |
re: #89 Gus 802
We reached a really big number of votes really fast. I didn't think there'd be that many people logged in that fast.
| 93 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:57:42pm |
re: #78 jamesfirecat
An estate tax?
Anyone leaving an estate worth more than five million has easily already whittled it into a manageable trust or series of trusts that fall below the cap.
| 94 |
What, me worry? Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:57:51pm |
| 95 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:58:08pm |
re: #90 marjoriemoon
God bless her soul, and may John never have a moments' rest.
| 96 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:58:20pm |
re: #93 tradewind
An estate tax?
Anyone leaving an estate worth more than five million has easily already whittled it into a manageable trust or series of trusts that fall below the cap.
Don't go starting this argument again.
"We can't tax the rich because they'll just find loopholes!"
| 97 |
Four More Tears Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:58:50pm |
| 98 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:58:53pm |
re: #91 jamesfirecat
Yeah, and if unemployment dropped to three percent, that'd do it as well.//
| 99 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:58:57pm |
I think the general geist here regarding Obama's chances in 2012 is excessively optimistic. His performance in 2008 was a one-off. He can't be the hope-bearing outsider again, and he can't be the first black president again. He doesn't have the enthusiasm of the youth vote any more, and the left is more than a little pissed.
Right now, I see Obama's victory in 2012, even against nutbags like Palin or Newt, as very much in doubt.
| 100 |
jc717 Tue, Dec 7, 2010 1:59:11pm |
re: #19 Crimsonfisted
I am working hard to be in the over 250,000 category. I want to keep the money I make, and I can decide where it goes to help my family, school, neighborhood, church. That's my thought anyways.
I'm in the top income bracket, and I think the 200k+ rates should go up.
It's nice of the GOP and BO to give me another 20k to spend next year, but I don't really need it. It won't make me spend any more cash on stuff; I pretty much have all the toys I want. I'll either buy some more shares in high dividend yield stocks, or go on an extra vacation to Spain or Italy. Yes, we're in a recession, but tax cuts on top income brackets have a very small stimulating effect. We're still fighting 2 wars and running huge deficits. We should start paying for stuff.
| 101 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:00:05pm |
re: #99 Fozzie Bear
I think the general geist here regarding Obama's chances in 2012 is excessively optimistic. His performance in 2008 was a one-off. He can't be the hope-bearing outsider again, and he can't be the first black president again. He doesn't have the enthusiasm of the youth vote any more, and the left is more than a little pissed.
Right now, I see Obama's victory in 2012, even against nutbags like Palin or Newt, as very much in doubt.
Please, against Palin or Newt he's got it locked up tight as can be.
Those guys don't even have the veneer of nobility John McCain had, they're nothing but rage religion and tax cuts...
| 102 |
What, me worry? Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:00:08pm |
re: #95 tradewind
God bless her soul, and may John never have a moments' rest.
When I read about her this morning and just started sobbing. It brings back so many bad memories, but she's always struck a chord with me, the poor woman, all she's had to deal with in her life. The death of her child, the illness and John.
There are so many wonder stories with breast cancer and I was so praying she'd be one of them.
| 103 |
BongCrodny Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:00:54pm |
re: #95 tradewind
God bless her soul, and may John never have a moments' rest.
You and I are pretty far apart politically, but I know a post worthy of an upding when I see one. :-)
| 104 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:01:40pm |
re: #101 jamesfirecat
Please, against Palin or Newt he's got it locked up tight as can be.
Those guys don't even have the veneer of nobility John McCain had, they're nothing but rage religion and tax cuts...
That's the American people, dude. That's what we are. Don't underestimate our collective stupidity.
| 106 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:01:56pm |
re: #96 jamesfirecat
Have found 'em. No one was waiting around to see if the ' papa take a bullet act ' was actually going to be set in motion.
Believe me, the lower tax rates are set on higher incomes, the more revenue will be generated. JFK knew this. Too bad the present-day Dems don't.
Low income earners don't create jobs or drive investment, however morally superior their lives may seem to you.
| 107 |
Obdicut Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:02:08pm |
re: #99 Fozzie Bear
See Simoom's post. I'm hoping the 'left' wakes up and smells reality at some point.
I think Obama will be able to energize people again. A lot got accomplished under his watch. A hell of a lot did. Hopefully, some more will get accomplished soon.
I'm more motivated to support him than I was in 2008. So maybe he lost some on the left, but he gained people like me.
I don't know how many of us there are, of course.
ANd yes, I voted for him before. But now I'm doing stuff like phone-banking and the rest of it.
| 108 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:02:22pm |
re: #99 Fozzie Bear
I think the general geist here regarding Obama's chances in 2012 is excessively optimistic. His performance in 2008 was a one-off. He can't be the hope-bearing outsider again, and he can't be the first black president again. He doesn't have the enthusiasm of the youth vote any more, and the left is more than a little pissed.
Right now, I see Obama's victory in 2012, even against nutbags like Palin or Newt, as very much in doubt.
what if he dosn't WANT to run again?
| 109 |
recusancy Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:02:22pm |
| 110 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:02:43pm |
re: #100 jc717
Nothing's stopping you from cutting an extra check for whatever you think you should send in, you know.......
Maybe you'll get a personal thanks!
| 112 |
RurouniKenshin Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:02:59pm |
Oppose, oppose, oppose.
Kill all the Bush-era tax cuts. All of them.
Yes, I'm saying we should be paying higher taxes. If we really want to give a break early next year, then work on some legislation to reduce taxes on the first $100k people earn.
If we're going to reduce this deficit, we need to raise taxes and cut military spending.
That is pragmatism. Not caving to Republican demands to help their ultra-rich friends continue to be richer and richer. If we're going to get this country out of the financial hole we're in, that means pulling in tax revenues. That also means we need to kill all these financial loopholes that allow some of the biggest, most profitable corporations in existence to pay $0 in taxes.
| 114 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:04:11pm |
re: #108 brookly red
what if he dosn't WANT to run again?
LOL I wouldn't blame him, after what he's been through. Being the communist muslim antichrist is exhausting.
| 115 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:04:35pm |
I don't know why so many people are all over Obama on this compromise. I think he did a masterful job actually, and in many ways showed up the GOP. No matter how you cut it, people will remember the GOP as supporting tax cuts for the rich come next voting cycle.
Instead of capitulating a bit (say tax cuts only for those earning up to 500k), the GOP will be remembered as the special interest group of the rich (and that pains me greatly, standing politically right of center).
Further, why is it so difficult for people to understand politics is not a zero sum game and will never be a zero sum game, winner take all proposition? Anyone who believes that will always be on the losing side in the long run because politics always has been and will be about horse trading.
Obama 'capitulated' easily and got what he needed, extended unemployment benefits and that is what will resonate really well in the next election. The GOP got played and for a few pieces of silver for a small sliver of ideological voters.
Obama's strategy against the GOP is a lot like the Israeli strategy against Hizbollah.
Every time they meet on the battlefield, Hizbollah claims a huge victory- notwithstanding South Lebanon and half of Beirut was relegated to cement dust. They are a lot like the GOP- 'We Won! We Won!'
Right.
The Israelis and the Dems ought to be very happy 'losing' all the time.
The GOP got played and don't even know it- and the moonbats want to snatch victory away and replace it with defeat.
Our world.
| 118 |
Obdicut Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:05:23pm |
re: #113 tradewind
Because he's proven to be such a leader?
Yep. Because he's shown himself to be very solid on the one issue I really doubted him-- foreign policy-- and important legislation managed to get passed under him even with monumental GOP obstructionism. Because he made a very good Supreme Court appointment and came out on the right side of many important issues, like Prop 8 and Cordoba House.
| 119 |
jc717 Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:05:33pm |
re: #110 tradewind
Nothing's stopping you from cutting an extra check for whatever you think you should send in, you know...
Maybe you'll get a personal thanks!
Funny. My extra contribution won't mean much in the great scheme of things, but you know that.
| 121 |
General Nimrod Bodfish Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:05:59pm |
re: #76 Stanley Sea
Elizabeth Edwards just died.
Just saw that on CNN. Hope the Edwards family and friends find some comfort.
| 122 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:06:32pm |
re: #114 Fozzie Bear
LOL I wouldn't blame him, after what he's been through. Being the communist muslim antichrist is exhausting.
it is a real possibility that he just says f' it, moves to Hawaii & writes a book... that has to be more fun than what he is doing now.
| 123 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:06:36pm |
re: #108 brookly red
It actually seems that way at times.
Maybe the job itself bores him, or maybe he's just not cut out for the day-to-day of it.
It's hard to preside over a representative republic when your heart's really with an autocracy.
| 124 |
BongCrodny Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:06:58pm |
re: #99 Fozzie Bear
I think the general geist here regarding Obama's chances in 2012 is excessively optimistic. His performance in 2008 was a one-off. He can't be the hope-bearing outsider again, and he can't be the first black president again. He doesn't have the enthusiasm of the youth vote any more, and the left is more than a little pissed.
Right now, I see Obama's victory in 2012, even against nutbags like Palin or Newt, as very much in doubt.
Unfortunately I don't remember the site, but I read a series of polls recently that showed that when Obama was matched against "Other," he got trounced.
When he was matched against specifically named Republicans, he was ahead of every one. The closest matchup was Obama vs. Romney.
| 125 |
brownbagj Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:07:00pm |
re: #100 jc717
You know, you can always pay more in taxes than the government asks. You don't have to wait on the tax code if you think this is the right thing to do.
| 126 |
Locker Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:07:11pm |
re: #123 tradewind
It actually seems that way at times.
Maybe the job itself bores him, or maybe he's just not cut out for the day-to-day of it.
It's hard to preside over a representative republic when your heart's really with an autocracy.
Or maybe you are just a hater with ODS.
| 127 |
Four More Tears Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:07:26pm |
re: #115 researchok
If the Dems wanted to make this a political battle then they would have made the right filibuster tax cuts for the middle class. Instead we get this.
I dunno if I'm pissed off or happy about this, truth be told.
| 128 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:07:29pm |
Excellent move on Obama's part. This compromise is one of the administration's best decisions yet.
Obama in '12!
| 129 |
wrenchwench Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:08:22pm |
re: #121 commadore183
Just saw that on CNN. Hope the Edwards family and friends find some comfort.
I deleted my comment re: John.
Thanks, Preview.
| 130 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:08:27pm |
re: #118 Obdicut
Yep. Because he's shown himself to be very solid on the one issue I really doubted him-- foreign policy-- and important legislation managed to get passed under him even with monumental GOP obstructionism.
a) Yes, those fists have really unclenched overseas. They love us again!
b) He had/has a huge democratic majority in both houses.... who couldn't pass whatever under those conditions...
Oh wait.
| 131 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:08:45pm |
re: #127 JasonA
If the Dems wanted to make this a political battle then they would have made the right filibuster tax cuts for the middle class. Instead we get this.
I dunno if I'm pissed off or happy about this, truth be told.
I think Obama played it brilliantly.
I really do. he just gave the Dems the narrative for 2012.
| 132 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:09:45pm |
re: #128 Gus 802
Excellent move on Obama's part. This compromise is one of the administration's best decisions yet.
Obama in '12!
See my 115.
I think the move on Obama's part was very well played.
| 133 |
tomg51spence Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:09:45pm |
Although higher earners spend more, boosting the economy more,
what I don't know is at the higher range,
does more of the spending go out as overseas investments, not US purchases.
That said I have no idea where the break point may be.
| 134 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:09:55pm |
re: #131 researchok
I think Obama played it brilliantly.
I really do. he just gave the Dems the narrative for 2012.
Shh! We don't want to reveal the '12 secret yet.
| 135 |
Four More Tears Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:10:02pm |
re: #131 researchok
I think Obama played it brilliantly.
I really do. he just gave the Dems the narrative for 2012.
I think he governed well. Middle Class tax cuts had to happen, period. I'm not convinced it'll play out well politically. We Dems are woefully inadequate when it comes to rallying around our achievements it seems.
| 136 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:10:15pm |
re: #126 Locker
Or maybe anyone who isn't thrilled with POTUS is a hater? Or a racist!
Wait... that means Frank Rich and Maureen Dowd are..... haters? Racists?
| 137 |
Four More Tears Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:10:51pm |
re: #136 tradewind
You're just harder to take seriously because you were a hater well before he took office.
| 138 |
HappyWarrior Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:11:22pm |
That's very sad news about Mrs. Edwards. Seemed like a wonderful person and mother. My youngest brother is around the same age as her two youngest children.
| 139 |
blueraven Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:11:48pm |
re: #105 Gus 802
Do you have to be registered to vote?
I think their is hanky panky going on.
ACORN!!
| 140 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:12:07pm |
re: #127 JasonA
If you look at the senate re-election map for '12, it's not difficult to see what's happening. After the ' shellacking ' of 2010, and with even more democratic seats at risk in '12, there's no future in taking risks for these people, and they're not gonna do it. Obama knows this.
| 141 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:12:13pm |
re: #135 JasonA
I think he governed well. Middle Class tax cuts had to happen, period. I'm not convinced it'll play out well politically. We Dems are woefully inadequate when it comes to rallying around our achievements it seems.
That is absolutely true, re the Dems.
That said, you can take heart the GOP are now living in Psychoville. They had an opportunity to look gracious and conciliatory- and they pissed it away.
| 142 |
webevintage Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:12:15pm |
re: #123 tradewind
It actually seems that way at times.
Maybe the job itself bores him, or maybe he's just not cut out for the day-to-day of it.
It's hard to preside over a representative republic when your heart's really with an autocracy.
I think he is sick of the nuts in the Republican party and the some of the idiots who seem to inhabit his "base".
| 143 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:12:31pm |
re: #132 researchok
See my 115.
I think the move on Obama's part was very well played.
The progressive purists are not happy. However, while they make up the base of the left wing of the Democratic party the final votes are cast by independent voters and the few swing voters. I do find it ironic though that much has not changed with the far left and that they seem to be content on repeating 2000 and 2004.
| 144 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:12:56pm |
re: #137 JasonA
They could use you in Foggy Bottom, with that insight into unknowns.
Good grief.
| 146 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:13:32pm |
re: #142 webevintage
I think you're absolutely correct in that he definitely sees things that way.
Too bad he's stuck for another two years with even more of them.
| 147 |
Four More Tears Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:13:36pm |
re: #141 researchok
That is absolutely true, re the Dems.
That said, you can take heart the GOP are now living in Psychoville. They had an opportunity to look gracious and conciliatory- and they pissed it away.
Yeah, they just care about perceived victories over the Left. That's it. Nothing else.
| 148 |
blueraven Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:14:23pm |
re: #123 tradewind
It actually seems that way at times.
Maybe the job itself bores him, or maybe he's just not cut out for the day-to-day of it.
It's hard to preside over a representative republic when your heart's really with an autocracy.
And you have inside information on where his heart is? What a bunch of crap.
| 149 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:14:44pm |
I actually feel sorry for Obama over this*... he campaigned on being able to bring people together and the fist time he compromises he gets it from both sides.
*oh that hurt.
| 150 |
Amory Blaine Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:14:59pm |
There should be a ceremonial can in D.C. that should be kicked down the halls of Congress after every session.
| 151 |
webevintage Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:15:14pm |
re: #136 tradewind
Or maybe anyone who isn't thrilled with POTUS is a hater? Or a racist!
Wait... that means Frank Rich and Maureen Dowd are... haters? Racists?
Maureen Dowd is a woman with daddy issues who seems to think that she needs a big strong President to make her feel all safe and warm like a good father would.
and you know that no one here thinks that just not liking the President or disagreeing with him makes one a racist.
| 152 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:16:04pm |
re: #149 brookly red
I actually feel sorry for Obama over this*... he campaigned on being able to bring people together and the fist time he compromises he gets it from both sides.
*oh that hurt.
I'll just watch in amazement. Hard to believe that there are people still around who think raising taxes is a good thing.
| 153 |
recusancy Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:16:07pm |
re: #149 brookly red
I actually feel sorry for Obama over this*... he campaigned on being able to bring people together and the fist time he compromises he gets it from both sides.
*oh that hurt.
First time he's compromised??? He's compromised on everything. Stimulus, healthcare bill, gitmo, etc...
| 154 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:16:09pm |
re: #150 Amory Blaine
There should be a ceremonial can in D.C. that should be kicked down the halls of Congress after every session.
LOL! I want the contract to supply the can!
| 155 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:16:10pm |
re: #134 Gus 802
You do realize that the ' 12 secret is even more democratic seats down the tubes?
That said, Obama will probably win re-election, and actually, I hope he does, because if he doesn't, it means the country will be in even worse shape, and I don't wish for that.
| 156 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:16:24pm |
re: #143 Gus 802
The progressive purists are not happy. However, while they make up the base of the left wing of the Democratic party the final votes are cast by independent voters and the few swing voters. I do find it ironic though that much has not changed with the far left and that they seem to be content on repeating 2000 and 2004.
Ain't that right on the money.
I know people don't like to talk about identity politics but in fact, that is what drives the hard left. They would rather be martyrs to the cause then have 75% of the pie.
And they wonder why common sense middle America won't vote for them.
| 157 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:16:45pm |
re: #150 Amory Blaine
There should be a ceremonial can in D.C. that should be kicked down the halls of Congress after every session.
Line of the day.
| 158 |
Obdicut Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:16:51pm |
re: #149 brookly red
This is not by any stretch of the imagination the first time he's compromised.
| 159 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:17:26pm |
re: #152 Gus 802
I'll just watch in amazement. Hard to believe that there are people still around who think raising taxes is a good thing.
I was wrong.
4 XL
| 160 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:17:28pm |
re: #156 researchok
Ain't that right on the money.
I know people don't like to talk about identity politics but in fact, that is what drives the hard left. They would rather be martyrs to the cause then have 75% of the pie.
And they wonder why common sense middle America won't vote for them.
Kucinich/Nader in 12!
//
| 161 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:17:39pm |
| 162 |
S'latch Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:17:51pm |
Why would someone who opposes extending the tax cut for those making more than $250,000 a year also support Obama's deal with the Republicans to do it?
| 163 |
Obdicut Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:17:51pm |
re: #152 Gus 802
I'll just watch in amazement. Hard to believe that there are people still around who think raising taxes is a good thing.
Huh? You think raising taxes is never a good idea?
Or do you just mean right now?
| 165 |
blueraven Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:18:16pm |
re: #149 brookly red
I actually feel sorry for Obama over this*... he campaigned on being able to bring people together and the fist time he compromises he gets it from both sides.
*oh that hurt.
Your concern is touching, but I wouldn't count on this lasting too long.
And by you statement he did bring the right and left together!
| 166 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:18:35pm |
re: #148 blueraven
No more so than those here who seem to have the scoop on mine.
Obama has given plenty of oral clues as to his fondness for the will of the people, mocking their stubborn clinging to religion, their affinity for the second amendment, and even their ability to understand issues.
| 167 |
Obdicut Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:18:49pm |
re: #162 Lawrence Schmerel
Because the deal was a deal, and got a lot of other things in return for that?
The income tax part wasn't even the most important thing to the GOP. It was the estate tax. Yet somehow everyone's just talking about the income tax. I don't get it.
| 168 |
HappyWarrior Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:18:55pm |
I feel bad for him because he's got one side that wants him to be this purist and ideological president while the other side is convinced he's just that. I never understood why kids want to be president. Sure you'd be one of forty three as of now different people to hold hte position but I wouldn't want hte pressures the job has. Now if you offered me an ambassadorship to a beautiful country, I'd be on my way :).
| 169 |
Four More Tears Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:19:12pm |
re: #162 Lawrence Schmerel
Why would someone who opposes extending the tax cut for those making more than $250,000 a year also support Obama's deal with the Republicans to do it?
Because getting the cut for the middle class is more important than denying it to the people making 250k+.
| 170 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:19:29pm |
re: #163 Obdicut
Huh? You think raising taxes is never a good idea?
Or do you just mean right now?
Taxes are already high enough. In general I don't think it's ever a good idea. For instance, property taxes in New Jersey need to be lowered. This has to go hand in hand with spending cuts because government is far too bloated.
| 171 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:19:40pm |
| 172 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:19:41pm |
re: #147 JasonA
Yeah, they just care about perceived victories over the Left. That's it. Nothing else.
I'm telling you, both sides are becoming more and more polarized.
This won't end well- and when it does, well, there will be a real house cleaning.
| 174 |
webevintage Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:20:07pm |
re: #162 Lawrence Schmerel
Why would someone who opposes extending the tax cut for those making more than $250,000 a year also support Obama's deal with the Republicans to do it?
Ummmm, because without that bit of specialness for the R's we would not get an extension for the middle class tax cuts, an extension on unemployment benefits, ect.
| 175 |
blueraven Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:20:33pm |
re: #166 tradewind
No more so than those here who seem to have the scoop on mine.
Obama has given plenty of oral clues as to his fondness for the will of the people, mocking their stubborn clinging to religion, their affinity for the second amendment, and even their ability to understand issues.
Oh that is so tired, dont you have something newer?
| 176 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:20:42pm |
re: #156 researchok
It's like the leaders of some labor unions who couldn't grasp the concept that 80% of something is always better than 100% of nothing, refused concessions, and drove corporations into bankruptcy.
| 177 |
Amory Blaine Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:20:43pm |
re: #149 brookly red
I actually feel sorry for Obama over this*... he campaigned on being able to bring people together and the fist time he compromises he gets it from both sides.
*oh that hurt.
When I read this I saw a Pelosi/Obama?Boehner sandwich.
Now that hurts. ;P
| 178 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:20:44pm |
re: #170 Gus 802
Taxes are already high enough. In general I don't think it's ever a good idea. For instance, property taxes in New Jersey need to be lowered. This has to go hand in hand with spending cuts because government is far too bloated.
and Rent Is Too Damned High too.
| 179 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:20:59pm |
re: #164 Gus 802
What's the meaning of the shirt sizes?
The Bullseye T Shirt of the previous thread.
How quickly they forget...
| 180 |
engineer cat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:21:18pm |
re: #125 brownbagj
You know, you can always pay more in taxes than the government asks. You don't have to wait on the tax code if you think this is the right thing to do.
i was, personally, asking to pay more when i opposed the extension of the tax cuts for families making over $250k
some of us will volutnteer to pay more money to help the common good
it's called: Living in a Community
| 181 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:21:42pm |
re: #179 researchok
The Bullseye T Shirt of the previous thread.
How quickly they forget...
Damn. I forgot that already.
Hey, come 2012... I might actually vote for...
//
| 182 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:21:58pm |
re: #176 tradewind
It's like the leaders of some labor unions who couldn't grasp the concept that 80% of something is always better than 100% of nothing, refused concessions, and drove corporations into bankruptcy.
WExactly- and that attitude is still pervasive in many quarters.
The TP'ers and the hard left have that in common.
| 183 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:22:40pm |
re: #162 Lawrence Schmerel
For the same reason that a congressman who thinks cheating on taxes is wrong for everyone else but supports Charlie Rangel's right to avoid punishment for it.
| 186 |
HappyWarrior Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:23:16pm |
re: #182 researchok
WExactly- and that attitude is still pervasive in many quarters.
The TP'ers and the hard left have that in common.
It's the old circular spectrum argument, you go far enough around you end up at the same place. The far left's dogma annoys me as much as the far right's does.
| 187 |
Obdicut Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:23:16pm |
re: #170 Gus 802
Taxes are already high enough.
Why do you think so, though? They've been a lot higher before. They're at a quite low rate right now.
For instance, property taxes in New Jersey need to be lowered. This has to go hand in hand with spending cuts because government is far too bloated.
And what would you like to see cut?
| 188 |
webevintage Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:23:34pm |
I think we need to remember that Democrats proved on Saturday that they did not have the votes to pass the House extention of the middle class tax cuts. Nor a version with tax cuts being extended to incomes up to a million.
This means they also did not have votes (probably) to pass the unemployment extension.
Dems got some things they want in this deal and R's got some too...that's how a deal works. Each side gives.
| 189 |
garhighway Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:23:47pm |
OT:
Sad news. Elizabeth Edwards passed away.
My WSJ alert:
Elizabeth Edwards has died of cancer, a family friend said. The estranged wife of former Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards died in North Carolina Tuesday at 10:15 a.m., according to the friend.
| 190 |
engineer cat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:24:09pm |
re: #166 tradewind
No more so than those here who seem to have the scoop on mine.
Obama has given plenty of oral clues as to his fondness for the will of the people, mocking their stubborn clinging to religion, their affinity for the second amendment, and even their ability to understand issues.
"the people"
there are 330 million of us in this country, and we have a variety of views
| 191 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:24:15pm |
re: #185 Gus 802
LOL. Translation: ' Bite me, you Morons '.
I would love to have been a fly on the wall when Rahm got the news.
| 192 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:24:30pm |
re: #189 garhighway
OT:
Sad news. Elizabeth Edwards passed away.
My WSJ alert:
Elizabeth Edwards has died of cancer, a family friend said. The estranged wife of former Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards died in North Carolina Tuesday at 10:15 a.m., according to the friend.
I wish her family strength and comfort.
| 193 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:25:12pm |
re: #187 Obdicut
Why do you think so, though? They've been a lot higher before. They're at a quite low rate right now.
And what would you like to see cut?
Salaries for one. Especially the higher up civil servants. Other departments could stand to be cut. Farm subsidies, USAid, private university funding, etc. I can't really come up with a complete list now. A hiring freeze is also a good idea which the president has already proposed.
| 194 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:25:21pm |
re: #190 engineer dog
Fine. Amended to ' people in flyover country who didn't vote for me '.
| 195 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:25:46pm |
re: #188 webevintage
I think we need to remember that Democrats proved on Saturday that they did not have the votes to pass the House extention of the middle class tax cuts. Nor a version with tax cuts being extended to incomes up to a million.
This means they also did not have votes (probably) to pass the unemployment extension.
Dems got some things they want in this deal and R's got some too...that's how a deal works. Each side gives.
You are one of those thinking voters.
I'll have to keep an eye on you.
//
| 196 |
Big Steve Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:25:56pm |
Like the tax deal or not, I for one am actually glad to see both sides try compromising instead of the steady drum beat of pissing on each other's shoes. Actually my opinion of President Obama increased a tad.....he got something and gave up something.
| 197 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:26:28pm |
re: #180 engineer dog
Really, you can still send it in.
They'll cash your check.
Put your money where your heart is.
| 198 |
brennant Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:26:32pm |
re: #193 Gus 802
Salaries for one. Especially the higher up civil servants. Other departments could stand to be cut. Farm subsidies, USAid, private university funding, etc. I can't really come up with a complete list now. A hiring freeze is also a good idea which the president has already proposed.
But nothing EVER from defense... If we want to look at lower spending, that piece of pie needs a little scrutiny as well.
| 200 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:28:24pm |
re: #198 brennant
But nothing EVER from defense... If we want to look at lower spending, that piece of pie needs a little scrutiny as well.
well do we really need troops in Europe?
| 201 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:29:10pm |
re: #198 brennant
But nothing EVER from defense... If we want to look at lower spending, that piece of pie needs a little scrutiny as well.
Yeah, nothing EVER from defense. Yep. That's exactly what I was thinking.
| 202 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:29:13pm |
re: #196 Big Steve
Like the tax deal or not, I for one am actually glad to see both sides try compromising instead of the steady drum beat of pissing on each other's shoes. Actually my opinion of President Obama increased a tad...he got something and gave up something.
Agreed. And truth be told, I believe Obama got the better end of the deal.
He just gave the Dems the next election narrative: The GOP is the party that gave breaks to the rich and we gave extended benefits to those less fortunate.
The GOP is still declaring 'victory' and the hard left are furiously trying to turn victory into defeat.
Insanity rules.
| 203 |
garhighway Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:29:22pm |
re: #170 Gus 802
Taxes are already high enough. In general I don't think it's ever a good idea. For instance, property taxes in New Jersey need to be lowered. This has to go hand in hand with spending cuts because government is far too bloated.
Speaking now of the Federal income tax, what is so magic about the current rates? How do you determine whether the current rates are the exact right ones?
On another note, a hypothetical question:
Assume that the concentration of wealth and income in the top 5% of Americans has significantly increased over the past 30 years. (Now remember, this is a hypothetical.) Would you think that increasing concentration of wealth is a good thing for America, and if not, would you think that there ought to be a governmental policy response to ameliorate that trend? if so, what policy response?
| 204 |
Obdicut Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:29:26pm |
re: #193 Gus 802
Salaries for one. Especially the higher up civil servants.
And how much would that save?
Farm subsidies, USAid, private university funding,
Farm subsidies are $20 billion. It's a lot, but it's also not much. USAid is a drop in the bucket. Private university funding-- I have no idea how much it is, but I also have no idea why you think that's a good thing to cut. Investment in research and education is one of the best ways of spending government money. But I'm going to guess it's also not that much.
I'm sorry, but I can't really respect a call to cut government spending that isn't accompanied by a list of significant government spending to cut. It's not a real call for a spending cut, it's an abstract desire.
I, too, wish the government spent less money. But when I look really hard at it, it doesn't seem that there are specific cuts that can be made, rather, it seems that the savings would be in spending money a lot more wisely-- including spending money on things we don't, now, in order to save money in other ways.
If we spent more on social services, we'd spend less on cops, jails, the courts, etc. etc. For example.
| 205 |
Amory Blaine Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:29:44pm |
How will it be with a German army?
*shiver*
| 206 |
brennant Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:29:48pm |
re: #200 brookly red
well do we really need troops in Europe?
Look at everything... if cutting our spending is the goal, I think everything has to be on the table. Including raising taxes.
| 207 |
Big Steve Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:30:18pm |
re: #202 researchok
Agreed. And truth be told, I believe Obama got the better end of the deal.
He just gave the Dems the next election narrative: The GOP is the party that gave breaks to the rich and we gave extended benefits to those less fortunate.
The GOP is still declaring 'victory' and the hard left are furiously trying to turn victory into defeat.
Insanity rules.
Plus President Obama gets to say that he passed a tax cut.....the 1% payroll cut.
| 208 |
garhighway Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:30:19pm |
re: #193 Gus 802
Salaries for one. Especially the higher up civil servants. Other departments could stand to be cut. Farm subsidies, USAid, private university funding, etc. I can't really come up with a complete list now. A hiring freeze is also a good idea which the president has already proposed.
Peanuts. Nowhere near the dollars needed to make a significant impact.
Keep going.
| 209 |
HappyWarrior Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:31:07pm |
re: #206 brennant
Look at everything... if cutting our spending is the goal, I think everything has to be on the table. Including raising taxes.
I have to agree. I don't think anyone can be taken seriously and credible about wanting to cut spending when they are completely unwilling to cut from the big elephant in the room so to speak. I'm not some radical who wants to slash defense spending in half but some cuts should be in order.
| 211 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:31:19pm |
re: #208 garhighway
Peanuts. Nowhere near the dollars needed to make a significant impact.
Keep going.
Whatever. I'm not going to come up with a list now. It can stand across the board cuts.
| 212 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:31:20pm |
re: #199 tradewind
Me too, minus one.
I'll save that for tomorrow.
He is the father of the children. Hopefully, he'll remember that now and be there for them.
| 213 |
garhighway Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:31:43pm |
re: #198 brennant
But nothing EVER from defense... If we want to look at lower spending, that piece of pie needs a little scrutiny as well.
Remember the role of NATO: to keep Russia out, America in and Germany down.
Is it still relevant?
| 214 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:31:56pm |
re: #206 brennant
Look at everything... if cutting our spending is the goal, I think everything has to be on the table. Including raising taxes.
but I thought the idea behind rasing taxes was to not have to cut spending?
| 215 |
garhighway Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:32:18pm |
| 216 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:32:23pm |
re: #211 Gus 802
Whatever. I'm not going to come up with a list now. It can stand across the board cuts.
The UK, Ireland, France, Germany, et al , can come up with spending cuts.
So can we.
| 217 |
Four More Tears Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:32:24pm |
re: #213 garhighway
Remember the role of NATO: to keep Russia out, America in and Germany down.
Is it still relevant?
If the Republicans really want to end the START treaty...
| 218 |
Obdicut Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:32:34pm |
re: #211 Gus 802
Whatever. I'm not going to come up with a list now. It can stand across the board cuts.
Cutting some things means spending more on other things. If you cut money to the forestry service, you'll wind up spending more money fighting forest fires.
Cut meat inspectors, and you'll spend more money dealing with E. Coli outbreaks.
It's not an easy world.
| 219 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:33:17pm |
re: #216 researchok
The UK, Ireland, France, Germany, et al , can come up with spending cuts.
So can we.
True. But that runs counter to the progressive narrative in here.
| 220 |
jc717 Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:33:21pm |
re: #170 Gus 802
Taxes are already high enough. In general I don't think it's ever a good idea. For instance, property taxes in New Jersey need to be lowered. This has to go hand in hand with spending cuts because government is far too bloated.
Taxes are the lowest they've been in 60 years.
The economy was booming under Clinton when taxes were higher.
We've had lower taxes for the past 7 years. The economy is in the Sh!tter.
We're fighting 2 wars and running huge deficits. How do you propose balancing the budget?
What specifically would you cut?
| 221 |
HappyWarrior Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:33:23pm |
re: #218 Obdicut
Cutting some things means spending more on other things. If you cut money to the forestry service, you'll wind up spending more money fighting forest fires.
Cut meat inspectors, and you'll spend more money dealing with E. Coli outbreaks.
It's not an easy world.
This is absolutely right and why we have to be very analyticial when making decisions on what to and what not to cut.
| 222 |
ErikJ76 Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:33:48pm |
"For the 2010 fiscal year, the president's base budget of the Department of Defense rose to $533.8 billion. Adding spending on "overseas contingency operations" brings the sum to $663.8 billion."
| 223 |
brennant Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:33:49pm |
re: #214 brookly red
but I thought the idea behind rasing taxes was to not have to cut spending?
Amusing
We will have to do a bit of both I think. Gradually, I hope and not at one time...
| 224 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:34:56pm |
I don't know how much longer I can hang out here. This is really over the top lately. It's like nothing but Democratic Party talking points 24/7.
| 225 |
jc717 Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:35:42pm |
re: #219 Gus 802
True. But that runs counter to the progressive narrative in here.
How's that working out for Ireland?
| 226 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:36:07pm |
re: #219 Gus 802
True. But that runs counter to the progressive narrative in here.
5 XL
Don't worry, I'll forget about the T Shirt by tomorrow.
/
| 227 |
Digital Display Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:36:18pm |
A 5-7% cut to every dept. of the Government...
See how easy that was?
/
| 228 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:36:27pm |
re: #225 jc717
How's that working out for Ireland?
The lefties and trust funders took to the streets.
| 229 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:36:39pm |
re: #224 Gus 802
I don't know how much longer I can hang out here. This is really over the top lately. It's like nothing but Democratic Party talking points 24/7.
easy Gus, these are just interesting times.
| 230 |
RurouniKenshin Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:36:56pm |
re: #224 Gus 802
I don't know how much longer I can hang out here. This is really over the top lately. It's like nothing but Democratic Party talking points 24/7.
Being confronted with the reality of that our taxes are completely absurdly low and threatening to leave instead of trying to argue a counterpoint or maybe just admitting you don't have a great answer for that is really gonna win you points.
| 231 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:37:30pm |
re: #225 jc717
How's that working out for Ireland?
Are you implying the Brits, Irish, Germans, French, etc., should not curb spending?
| 233 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:37:54pm |
re: #227 HoosierHoops
A 5-7% cut to every dept. of the Government...
See how easy that was?
/
except for the IRS... 50% cut, to start ;)
| 236 |
ErikJ76 Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:38:23pm |
re: #210 recusancy
Despite all the talk about how good the 50's and 60's were, the tax rates of those decades are not as loved...
| 237 |
recusancy Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:38:27pm |
re: #233 brookly red
except for the IRS... 50% cut, to start ;)
Congratulations you saved about .25% of the deficit.
| 239 |
garhighway Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:38:51pm |
re: #219 Gus 802
True. But that runs counter to the progressive narrative in here.
I respectfully disagree.
We have some interesting discussions here on that point. But the problem starts when people forget that getting serious about the deficit (for those whose interest in the deficit isn't disingenuous) requires work on both the revenue and spending side, and means pain for all in ways that transcend the usual political narratives.
Here's two handy ways to look at it from prior threads:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
| 240 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:39:23pm |
re: #232 Gus 802
Screw it.
It's cyclical. You know that.
The good news is that there are a core of lizards with whom conversation and exchange is possible.
| 241 |
Digital Display Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:39:48pm |
re: #237 recusancy
Congratulations you saved about .25% of the deficit.
a Billion here..10 billion there..pretty soon we are talking about real money
| 242 |
recusancy Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:39:56pm |
re: #236 ErikJ76
Despite all the talk about how good the 50's and 60's were, the tax rates of those decades are not as loved...
We had to pay for the wars. Our economy didn't suffer though.
| 244 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:40:01pm |
re: #237 recusancy
Congratulations you saved about .25% of the deficit.
not bad for just an average guy from Brooklyn, no?
| 245 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:40:22pm |
re: #240 researchok
It's cyclical. You know that.
The good news is that there are a core of lizards with whom conversation and exchange is possible.
Thanks for your support man.
| 246 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:41:02pm |
re: #21 jamesfirecat
Daily Show?
(Wonder which audience is bigger actually...)
Sorry--distracted.
Most recent numbers: All Things Considered-12 million (unique) weekly.
Daily Show-1.2 to 1.6 million per show.
| 247 |
recusancy Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:41:09pm |
re: #241 HoosierHoops
a Billion here..10 billion there..pretty soon we are talking about real money
Yes, but there are symbolic cuts and there are cuts. Scale is unappreciated.
| 248 |
Spocomptonite Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:41:22pm |
The poll results thus far reflect exactly how I feel about everything: I very much believe the tax cuts should have expired for the highest tax bracket, but I'm pretty evenly split about whether it was a good or bad thing to compromise that away in order to get unemployment extensions immediately.
| 249 |
Varek Raith Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:41:31pm |
As unpopular as it might be, I support the compromise.
Otherwise, not a damn thing will happen.
GOP holding unemployment benefits hostage to get tax cuts for the wealthy
Is no different than the
Democrats holding unemployment benefits hostage to not extend tax cuts for the wealthy.
| 250 |
Varek Raith Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:41:55pm |
| 251 |
Obdicut Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:42:02pm |
re: #224 Gus 802
I don't know how much longer I can hang out here. This is really over the top lately. It's like nothing but Democratic Party talking points 24/7.
How is saying "Sometimes raising taxes is a good thing" and "When you say we need to cut spending, you need to actually cite things you want cut" Democratic talking points?
Or pointing out that when you cut one thing, it often winds up costing more in another way?
| 253 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:42:07pm |
| 254 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:42:43pm |
re: #245 Gus 802
Thanks for your support man.
And you can always fall back to talking with me. No one give my comments much weight... it's a good safe place to be... conversing with me.
//
| 255 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:44:01pm |
re: #253 brookly red
cause it you bug then there is one less to carry on?
I'll be quiet for a while here now.
| 256 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:44:14pm |
re: #254 Walter L. Newton
And you can always fall back to talking with me. No one give my comments much weight... it's a good safe place to be... conversing with me.
//
IT'S A TRAP!!!
| 257 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:44:27pm |
| 259 |
Digital Display Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:44:36pm |
re: #247 recusancy
Yes, but there are symbolic cuts and there are cuts. Scale is unappreciated.
a 5-7% cut to every dept of the Gov't is not symbolic..It's a start..IMHO
| 260 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:45:02pm |
| 261 |
recusancy Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:45:37pm |
re: #259 HoosierHoops
a 5-7% cut to every dept of the Gov't is not symbolic..It's a start..IMHO
It's also damaging to many departments.
| 262 |
Four More Tears Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:45:41pm |
| 263 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:45:43pm |
re: #254 Walter L. Newton
And you can always fall back to talking with me. No one give my comments much weight... it's a good safe place to be... conversing with me.
//
I second that.
You're pretty stand up, WLN.
(notwithstanding that occasionally weird sense of humor)
/
| 264 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:45:55pm |
re: #260 Decatur Deb
Cheer up. You could be the new SpaceJesus.
Might take a while. I have 72,789 karma points.
| 265 |
Jeff In Ohio Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:46:18pm |
re: #238 Gus 802
Why should I?
Mostly you should because you bring a different perspective to the debate. When I see you taking a position contrary to what I would take, it makes me step back and rethink my position. We're not going to agree on some things. I'm a progressive. I don't think I live in an echo chamber. I can recognize when there are progressives mouthing talking points as easily as I can recognize conservatives doing the same.
So, you know, learn to step back and give it a break would be my advise. It's the internet.
| 266 |
Varek Raith Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:46:32pm |
re: #264 Gus 802
Might take a while. I have 72,789 karma points.
Pretty soon, so will SpaceJesus!
MUHAHAHA!
| 267 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:46:39pm |
| 268 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:47:08pm |
re: #264 Gus 802
Might take a while. I have 72,789 karma points.
but thats not Fair... you should be taxed!
| 269 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:47:13pm |
re: #264 Gus 802
Might take a while. I have 72,789 karma points.
Have you seen the new Karma Tax Tables?
| 270 |
jc717 Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:47:32pm |
re: #228 Gus 802
The lefties and trust funders took to the streets.
The EU had to extend a 100B + rescue package because revenues fell enough to offset any austerity measures....
| 271 |
celticdragon Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:47:46pm |
re: #99 Fozzie Bear
I think the general geist here regarding Obama's chances in 2012 is excessively optimistic. His performance in 2008 was a one-off. He can't be the hope-bearing outsider again, and he can't be the first black president again. He doesn't have the enthusiasm of the youth vote any more, and the left is more than a little pissed.
Right now, I see Obama's victory in 2012, even against nutbags like Palin or Newt, as very much in doubt.
Here is a depressing little rundown of possible futures in America at Salon...
After years of swelling deficits fed by incessant warfare in distant lands, in 2020, as long expected, the U.S. dollar finally loses its special status as the world's reserve currency. Suddenly, the cost of imports soars. Unable to pay for swelling deficits by selling now-devalued Treasury notes abroad, Washington is finally forced to slash its bloated military budget. Under pressure at home and abroad, Washington slowly pulls U.S. forces back from hundreds of overseas bases to a continental perimeter. By now, however, it is far too late.Faced with a fading superpower incapable of paying the bills, China, India, Iran, Russia, and other powers, great and regional, provocatively challenge U.S. dominion over the oceans, space, and cyberspace. Meanwhile, amid soaring prices, ever-rising unemployment, and a continuing decline in real wages, domestic divisions widen into violent clashes and divisive debates, often over remarkably irrelevant issues. Riding a political tide of disillusionment and despair, a far-right patriot captures the presidency with thundering rhetoric, demanding respect for American authority and threatening military retaliation or economic reprisal. The world pays next to no attention as the American Century ends in silence.
Several more like that. The WW III with a Chinese super virus is the least likely I think(We have competent computer geeks who could retaliate and most military networks have physical firewalls), but the one above is too close for comfort.
| 272 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:47:47pm |
| 274 |
gamark Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:48:42pm |
re: #112 RurouniKenshin
Kill all the Bush-era tax cuts. All of them.
So you want the income tax to be more regressive? What about the poor?
| 275 |
Digital Display Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:48:49pm |
re: #261 recusancy
It's also damaging to many departments.
I call BS..I worked for the Government for 20 years..I know we spent a shitload of money at year end for the next budget cycle...There would be little pain and much savings..
| 276 |
Varek Raith Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:48:53pm |
| 277 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:50:14pm |
| 278 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:50:16pm |
re: #276 Varek Raith
So...
Can we, like, cash in our karma???
I think the exchange rate may dissapoint you...
| 279 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:50:40pm |
re: #270 jc717
The EU had to extend a 100B + rescue package because revenues fell enough to offset any austerity measures...
Well since you bring that up again. Here's the gig. Portugal, Ireland and Spain have been taxing their citizens through the roof for decades now. They're broke because they spent too much over the years and they can no longer afford to squeeze anymore money from their citizens. That's what happens when you reach your limit on taxation and continue to spend like a drunken sailor.
| 280 |
Digital Display Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:50:46pm |
re: #276 Varek Raith
So...
Can we, like, cash in our karma???
You didn't get the catalog? I got a nifty 20 speed bike..
| 281 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:50:52pm |
| 282 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:51:18pm |
re: #276 Varek Raith
So...
Can we, like, cash in our karma???
There is a penalty for early withdrawal.
See agent Lucifer for details.
//
| 283 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:51:26pm |
Amazing how a few people are so quick to down ding. I'm watching.
| 284 |
garhighway Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:51:28pm |
re: #106 tradewind
Have found 'em. No one was waiting around to see if the ' papa take a bullet act ' was actually going to be set in motion.
Believe me, the lower tax rates are set on higher incomes, the more revenue will be generated. JFK knew this. Too bad the present-day Dems don't.
Low income earners don't create jobs or drive investment, however morally superior their lives may seem to you.
What were the marginal rates that JFK put in place?
| 285 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:52:11pm |
re: #283 Gus 802
Amazing how a few people are so quick to down ding. I'm watching.
Welcome to my world.
/
| 286 |
Digital Display Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:52:38pm |
re: #283 Gus 802
Amazing how a few people are so quick to down ding. I'm watching.
The sound of Pavlov rings a bell...
*wink*
| 287 |
Jeff In Ohio Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:53:10pm |
re: #279 Gus 802
Well since you bring that up again. Here's the gig. Portugal, Ireland and Spain have been taxing their citizens through the roof for decades now. They're broke because they spent too much over the years and they can no longer afford to squeeze anymore money from their citizens. That's what happens when you reach your limit on taxation and continue to spend like a drunken sailor.
And they are also in the position of not being able to devalue their currency to make exports more attractive and grow themselves out of their debt. As opposed to say Poland:
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
| 288 |
celticdragon Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:53:48pm |
| 289 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:54:57pm |
re: #283 Gus 802
Amazing how a few people are so quick to down ding. I'm watching.
And they usually are the ones who don't have enough of a vocabulary to form a complete sentence. They just lurk and ding... I'm watching too.
| 290 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:55:24pm |
re: #288 celticdragon
hehehehehehe!
gratutitous downding just to mess with you...
LOL, feel free and join the crowd...
| 291 |
engineer cat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:55:30pm |
re: #197 tradewind
Really, you can still send it in.
They'll cash your check.
Put your money where your heart is.
really, go ahead, don't pay any taxes
let everybody else take care of the roads, police, army, and everything else you need in a functioning society. why should you contribute?
| 292 |
Digital Display Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:56:22pm |
re: #288 celticdragon
hehehehehehe!
gratutitous downding just to mess with you...
Instant Dingings gonna get you,
Gonna knock you right on the head,
You better get yourself together,
Pretty soon you're gonna be dead,
What in the world you thinking of,
Laughing in the face of love,
What on earth you tryin' to do,
It's up to you, yeah you.
| 293 |
recusancy Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:56:28pm |
re: #279 Gus 802
Well since you bring that up again. Here's the gig. Portugal, Ireland and Spain have been taxing their citizens through the roof for decades now. They're broke because they spent too much over the years and they can no longer afford to squeeze anymore money from their citizens. That's what happens when you reach your limit on taxation and continue to spend like a drunken sailor.
Ireland and Spain had surpluses at the beginning of the global crises. Greece had a public debt problem and the US had a private sector debt problem. Had nothing to do with taxes.
| 295 |
celticdragon Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:57:13pm |
re: #290 researchok
LOL, feel free and join the crowd...
:D
LOL just having fun with you.
I have to start on a 10 page paper tonight and I also have to get the house ready for a Christmas party for the Geology dept.
Sigh
| 296 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:57:26pm |
re: #289 Walter L. Newton
And they usually are the ones who don't have enough of a vocabulary to form a complete sentence. They just lurk and ding... I'm watching too.
Yeah, the last thing we want to do is read something we don't agree with. Might as well down ding it. It's the next thing to the Digger mentality. Just read things that agree with your POV and disregard the rest. Almost like one party leadership. Now doesn't that sound familiar.
| 297 |
garhighway Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:58:12pm |
re: #279 Gus 802
Well since you bring that up again. Here's the gig. Portugal, Ireland and Spain have been taxing their citizens through the roof for decades now. They're broke because they spent too much over the years and they can no longer afford to squeeze anymore money from their citizens. That's what happens when you reach your limit on taxation and continue to spend like a drunken sailor.
As to Ireland I think that narrative is wrong. It is in the soup because it chose to bail out its private banks when they overextended themselves in the real estate bubble. It had been a notable low business tax haven for over a decade, and that fueled its growth. (The "Celtic Tiger" and all that.)
If Ireland had let nature take its course it wouldn't have needed a bailout or austerity measures.
| 298 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:58:14pm |
re: #280 HoosierHoops
You didn't get the catalog? I got a nifty 20 speed bike..
So this guy rides his bike up to the border and the guard smells that something is up and searches his backpack. He finds nothing and the guy rides on. The next day he is back & the same thing... this goes on for several years & then one day as the guy rides off the guard says, look damn it I am retiring and this is my last day on the job... I know in my bones you are smuggling something and I just gotta know! please tell me! The guy just waves & says, bicycles.
| 299 |
celticdragon Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:58:29pm |
re: #294 Varek Raith
Damn.
Elizabeth Edwards died.
Yeah. The flags are all at half mast here in Greensboro for her.
Bad day, and my thoughts are with her kids.
| 300 |
Usually refered to as anyways Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:58:40pm |
OT: US makes $12b on Citigroup sale
A multi-billion dollar bail-out for Citigroup has turned into a tidy profit for American taxpayers.
The US government sold its remaining stake in the bank at what the Treasury says is a $US12 billion profit for taxpayers.
The bank bailouts during the financial crisis have been highly unpopular.
At the height of the meltdown, the US Government paid $US45 billion to prop up Citigroup, America's third biggest bank.
In a statement, Citigroup says it is "very appreciative of the support provided", while a senior treasury official says it shows the US government is now getting out of owning stakes in private companies.
| 301 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:58:49pm |
re: #289 Walter L. Newton
And they usually are the ones who don't have enough of a vocabulary to form a complete sentence. They just lurk and ding... I'm watching too.
You better watch out, you better not cry
You better not pout, I'm telling you why,
LGF Spy is coming to town...
| 302 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:58:56pm |
re: #295 celticdragon
:D
LOL just having fun with you.I have to start on a 10 page paper tonight and I also have to get the house ready for a Christmas party for the Geology dept.
Sigh
Thank goodness I'm all over with that!
Then again, that's what I do for a living- write papers...
By the way, I read the Salon link- yesiree, I'm in the Holiday spirit now....
| 303 |
engineer cat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:59:33pm |
who are the people who are against extending the bush tax cuts for those making over $250k/yr?
are they "socialists" engaging in "class warfare"? "elites" who "don't understand economics"? "liberal fascists"? should they be asked "why do you hate america?"
in any case, they are the clear majority of the american people
that's who
| 304 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 2:59:53pm |
re: #300 ozbloke
OT: US makes $12b on Citigroup sale
A multi-billion dollar bail-out for Citigroup has turned into a tidy profit for American taxpayers.
The US government sold its remaining stake in the bank at what the Treasury says is a $US12 billion profit for taxpayers.
The bank bailouts during the financial crisis have been highly unpopular.
At the height of the meltdown, the US Government paid $US45 billion to prop up Citigroup, America's third biggest bank.
In a statement, Citigroup says it is "very appreciative of the support provided", while a senior treasury official says it shows the US government is now getting out of owning stakes in private companies.
What "tidy profit?" I didn't get any check?
| 305 |
garhighway Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:00:38pm |
re: #304 Walter L. Newton
What "tidy profit?" I didn't get any check?
Then it must not have happened.
| 306 |
celticdragon Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:00:38pm |
re: #302 researchok
Thank goodness I'm all over with that!
Then again, that's what I do for a living- write papers...
By the way, I read the Salon link- yesiree, I'm in the Holiday spirit now...
Welcome to your Blade Runner future where your value as a human being consists of your ability to be a good consumer.
| 308 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:01:30pm |
re: #300 ozbloke
OT: US makes $12b on Citigroup sale
A multi-billion dollar bail-out for Citigroup has turned into a tidy profit for American taxpayers.
The US government sold its remaining stake in the bank at what the Treasury says is a $US12 billion profit for taxpayers.
The bank bailouts during the financial crisis have been highly unpopular.
At the height of the meltdown, the US Government paid $US45 billion to prop up Citigroup, America's third biggest bank.
In a statement, Citigroup says it is "very appreciative of the support provided", while a senior treasury official says it shows the US government is now getting out of owning stakes in private companies.
/well, well, well I think I just figured out how to pay for unemployment...
| 309 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:01:39pm |
re: #303 engineer dog
who are the people who are against extending the bush tax cuts for those making over $250k/yr?
are they "socialists" engaging in "class warfare"? "elites" who "don't understand economics"? "liberal fascists"? should they be asked "why do you hate america?"
in any case, they are the clear majority of the american people
that's who
Those same American people have been called stupid and uneducated on LGF. I guess that majority of Americans are only Democrats... LOL.
| 310 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:01:47pm |
re: #307 Gus 802
OK I apologize for losing my cool there for a moment.
Who are you talking to?
I never saw a thing.
| 311 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:01:55pm |
re: #306 celticdragon
Welcome to your Blade Runner future where your value as a human being consists of your ability to be a good consumer.
Beats the Soylent Green future, which depends on your being consumed.
| 312 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:03:09pm |
re: #307 Gus 802
OK I apologize for losing my cool there for a moment.
Oh my goodness... too late... Gus swallowed the blue pill again.
| 313 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:03:21pm |
Ha! Just saw that. That's too funny.
Hey, RurouniKenshin, what's happening?
| 314 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:03:32pm |
re: #311 Decatur Deb
Beats the Soylent Green future, which depends on your being consumed.
I have the best of both... I advertise Soylent Green.
| 315 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:03:47pm |
re: #311 Decatur Deb
Beats the Soylent Green future, which depends on your being consumed.
You seem to know a lot about Soylent Green.
Care to share some recipes?
| 316 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:03:58pm |
re: #314 brookly red
I have the best of both... I advertise Soylent Green.
It's good with pineapple.
| 317 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:04:11pm |
re: #312 Walter L. Newton
Oh my goodness... too late... Gus swallowed the blue pill again.
It's the blue suppository.
//
| 318 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:04:19pm |
re: #305 garhighway
Then it must not have happened.
Ding... ding... ding... ding... and todays winner of the "my sarcasm meter is broken" is Garhighway. Good way to miss the whole point.
| 319 |
Four More Tears Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:04:22pm |
re: #303 engineer dog
who are the people who are against extending the bush tax cuts for those making over $250k/yr?
are they "socialists" engaging in "class warfare"? "elites" who "don't understand economics"? "liberal fascists"? should they be asked "why do you hate america?"
in any case, they are the clear majority of the american people
that's who
I'm against, but I'm also not frothing mad over them being extended. Shrug. This is what we have to deal with.
| 320 |
celticdragon Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:04:46pm |
re: #311 Decatur Deb
Beats the Soylent Green future, which depends on your being consumed.
Excellent point. You left out the part where good rooms for the elite also come with an indentured attractive woman who is referred to as part of the "furniture".
Damn. Messed up movie
| 321 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:05:26pm |
| 322 |
Varek Raith Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:05:30pm |
re: #307 Gus 802
OK I apologize for losing my cool there for a moment.
I blame Assange.
He made me lose my cool yesterday.
That jerk.
| 323 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:05:40pm |
re: #291 engineer dog
Wanna trade tax bills?
Rest assured, I've paid for at least one bridge to nowhere./
| 324 |
Digital Display Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:06:18pm |
| 325 |
Varek Raith Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:06:29pm |
re: #312 Walter L. Newton
Oh my goodness... too late... Gus swallowed the blue pill again.
WHOA!
You can't go mixing the Red and Blue pills!!!
Way to ruin existence, Gus!
:)
| 326 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:06:54pm |
re: #322 Varek Raith
I blame Assange.
He made me lose my cool yesterday.
That jerk.
/BLAM! now look what you made me do!
| 328 |
Spocomptonite Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:06:57pm |
| 329 |
celticdragon Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:07:03pm |
| 331 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:07:44pm |
re: #129 wrenchwench
You're a better man/woman than I am, gunga wench.
Seriously, I am glad that little Jack and Emma have big sister Cate to mother them now.
| 332 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:08:05pm |
| 334 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:08:22pm |
ahahah we got a fairtax chode in the thread, well done Rich87498479474aolname
| 335 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:09:33pm |
re: #50 insanity police
Yeah, by Dennis Kucinich. I doubt any viable democrat opponent will surface.
I can't see any reason to think the Democrats will change horses in midstream.
| 336 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:09:44pm |
| 337 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:09:49pm |
re: #303 engineer dog
who are the people who are against extending the bush tax cuts for those making over $250k/yr?
are they "socialists" engaging in "class warfare"? "elites" who "don't understand economics"? "liberal fascists"? should they be asked "why do you hate america?"
in any case, they are the clear majority of the american people
that's who
I think i accidentally clicked the button for being for tax cuts for 250+, still waking up, late night making noise, don't hate me
| 338 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:09:59pm |
re: #328 Spocomptonite
Fair tax is demonstrably unfair.
Welcome back... two days ago I queried you about Helen's Thomas' recent remarks in Detroit... we were talking about her if you remember...
[Link: www.pressandguide.com...]
I asked you if you agreed with any of her comments she made about Israel the other night.
I missed your answer.
| 339 |
celticdragon Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:10:24pm |
Gotta run, my scaly friends. School work and house cleaning to do and not much time. I'll check back after finals since it is going to be a bit stressful for the next week.
| 340 |
Varek Raith Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:10:31pm |
| 341 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:10:43pm |
re: #66 tradewind
Comparing Obama to Reagan?
LOL.
' It's mourning in America '.
"Don't mourn, organize."
| 342 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:11:10pm |
re: #326 brookly red
Assange is indeed a ' high-tech terrorist ' , per McConnell, but evil as it is, damned if I want to see ' condom fraud ' morph into a full-blown charge of rape.
Those wacky Swedes.....
| 343 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:11:49pm |
re: #70 Fozzie Bear
They don't have to primary him. Someone running to the left of him under a third party could easily destroy Obama's chances.
Not so sure. It would have to be a big-name candidate--another Nader, or maybe Nader again--and the Republicans are running a big risk of that happening as well.
| 344 |
wrenchwench Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:12:18pm |
re: #331 tradewind
You're a better man/woman than I am, gunga wench.
Seriously, I am glad that little Jack and Emma have big sister Cate to mother them now.
I wonder whether I might be both a better man AND a better woman than you are....
verrrry few man "wenches" about...
| 345 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:12:26pm |
re: #341 SanFranciscoZionist
Both activities have their place.
| 346 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:12:29pm |
| 347 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:12:30pm |
re: #343 SanFranciscoZionist
Not so sure. It would have to be a big-name candidate--another Nader, or maybe Nader again--and the Republicans are running a big risk of that happening as well.
Ron Paul versus Bernie Sanders.
| 348 |
engineer cat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:12:54pm |
re: #323 tradewind
Wanna trade tax bills?
so you have a family income of over $250k/yr also?
Rest assured, I've paid for at least one bridge to nowhere./
gee, i wonder how all the other bridges got built
| 349 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:12:59pm |
re: #322 Varek Raith
I blame Assange.
He made me lose my cool yesterday.
That jerk.
Yeah, it started with that on my end. Guess I've been kind of cranky on and off for about a week. No coffee in weeks and today I didn't even drink any tea. I can't stand tea. Blech.
| 350 |
Talking Point Detective Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:13:03pm |
| 351 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:13:05pm |
re: #344 wrenchwench
On the interwebz, you never know, which is why I added the slash/choice of gender.
| 352 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:13:28pm |
re: #309 Walter L. Newton
Those same American people have been called stupid and uneducated on LGF. I guess that majority of Americans are only Democrats... LOL.
On a serious note, have you noticed how many people can no longer 'disagree'? If ideologies aren't shared, the 'other' is evil, uneducated, etc.
This past Sunday on 60 minutes, Andy Rooney did a piece where he mentioned that he was good friends with Barry Goldwater, despite not agreeing with his politics at all. Can you imagine that happening today.
Gus' earlier point about downdinging simple because of an opposing view is very illustrative. Today, we have been taught that our political identity is directly reflective of our moral identity- a most absurd notion if there ever was one.
There are those who simply cannot and will not accept the reality that there are good people who might have views different than our own, because to do so somehow is dangerous to their very being and identity. As a result, we see widening rifts and no one either really talking with others of differing views.
For a society and culture, this is both tragic and dangerous.
| 354 |
wrenchwench Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:14:18pm |
| 355 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:14:28pm |
re: #349 Gus 802
Coffee is now a healthy elixir, does all sorts of good things . Drink up.
| 356 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:14:46pm |
| 357 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:14:47pm |
re: #347 Walter L. Newton
Ron Paul versus Bernie Sanders.
Greyhound buses to Winnipeg and Saskatoon would be jammed.
//
| 358 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:15:11pm |
re: #123 tradewind
It actually seems that way at times.
Maybe the job itself bores him, or maybe he's just not cut out for the day-to-day of it.
It's hard to preside over a representative republic when your heart's really with an autocracy.
1. I suppose it's possible, but I think it's mostly wishful thinking.
2. Autocracy? On what do you base this?
| 359 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:15:42pm |
re: #322 Varek Raith
I blame Assange.
He made me lose my cool yesterday.
That jerk.
I had a weird dream about Assange, he was running a nightclub or something that I was playing in, it was all very Matrix-like
| 360 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:15:56pm |
re: #355 tradewind
Coffee is now a healthy elixir, does all sorts of good things . Drink up.
I don't have any in the apartment. Too expensive for now. No beans, no coffee.
| 361 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:16:13pm |
re: #124 BongCrodny
Unfortunately I don't remember the site, but I read a series of polls recently that showed that when Obama was matched against "Other," he got trounced.
When he was matched against specifically named Republicans, he was ahead of every one. The closest matchup was Obama vs. Romney.
So if they can't actually find Arnold Vinick and convince him to run, Obama wins?
| 362 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:16:15pm |
re: #344 wrenchwench
I wonder whether I might be both a better man AND a better woman than you are...
verrry few man "wenches" about...
You're a she wench, not a he wench?
Imagine that . . .
| 363 |
freetoken Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:16:17pm |
Today Joe Barton revealed his plan on what he would do if he took over Energy and Commerce.
Among other things he'd like to do monthly reviews of that nastiest of government organizations, the EPA. After-all, it's pretty clear that we have too clean of air and water...
Anyway, here is the big PDF of his sales job (he needs permission from Boehner's steering committee - it should be noted that Barton might not get the committee, so this document is his plea that he is the right one to do it):
[Link: www.eenews.net...]
On page 3 and 4 is his outlined attack on the EPA and associated activities:
...
Just a few programs which should be eliminated, reformed or reduced:
• DOE’s Weatherization Assistance Program has been plagued by fraud and inefficiency.
• The Energy Star program, split between EPA and DOE, is duplicative of private sector
efforts, vulnerable to fraud, poorly managed and ineffective.
• The Green Power Partnership is an EPA program to help people and businesses buy
green electricity. The businesses which sell green electricity are capable of marketing it
themselves.
• The EPA’s SmartWay Transport helps encourage more fuel-efficient transportation,
including personal vehicles and fleet trucks. Surely individuals and trucking companies
have sufficient incentive to save fuel without a federal program telling them they should
do so.
• The EPA’s SunWise Program teaches children and their caregivers how to protect
themselves from overexposure to the sun. We are actually funding a program to teach
people to use sunscreen. [oh, the horrors!]...
• Do we really need eight science and advisory councils at the EPA? The duplication in
scientific advisory councils is ridiculous—we strongly support science-based regulation,
but the scientific advisory system should be effective and efficient.
• EPA’s Climate Change Kids program, to indoctrinate children on EPA’s view of climate
change.
• The U.S. Global Change Research Program (USGCRP) (formerly known as the U.S.
Climate Change Science Program) coordinates and integrates federal research on changes
in the global environment; its research contributes to the Intergovernmental Panel on
Climate Change.
...
It becomes pretty clear which lobbyists helped him write this.
Lot's of stuff in there.
| 364 |
Four More Tears Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:16:41pm |
re: #359 WindUpBird
I had a weird dream about Assange, he was running a nightclub or something that I was playing in, it was all very Matrix-like
I always picture him with European Techno music playing in the background.
| 365 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:16:48pm |
re: #360 Gus 802
I don't have any in the apartment. Too expensive for now. No beans, no coffee.
Gus... would you fucking email me... I will gladly send some coffee your way.
| 366 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:17:38pm |
re: #123 tradewind
It actually seems that way at times.
Maybe the job itself bores him, or maybe he's just not cut out for the day-to-day of it.
It's hard to preside over a representative republic when your heart's really with an autocracy.
I love this blind hard-right partisan armchair quarterbacking mixed with wacky hyperbole
Well done, I'm scoring that as a spare, you picked up the 7-10 split
| 367 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:17:45pm |
re: #365 Walter L. Newton
Gus... would you fucking email me... I will gladly send some coffee your way.
Fed X? I've been um, avoiding my mail.
| 368 |
mr.fusion Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:17:45pm |
re: #319 JasonA
I'm against, but I'm also not frothing mad over them being extended. Shrug. This is what we have to deal with.
It's the difference between living in reality and being ideologically pure. I find it ridiculous that the "professional left" would rather see taxes raised on the very middle class that they claim to stand for than have tax cuts for the wealthy. It's ridiculous. To be frank about it, I make less than $250K and the only thing I care about right now is MY taxes. They're not going to go up, so I'm happy. Ideologically, I hate seeing the Bush tax cuts extended. There's so many arguments against it, from the debt to the lack of stimulative effects, but in the end the President's choice was - Raise taxes on everyone, or give tax cuts to the wealthy. He made the right choice. There is ZERO doubt in my mind that the GOP would have let all the cuts expire, and the majority of this country would have blamed Obama for it.
Politically and for the sake of the country it was the right thing to do. It's also interesting that the GOP's main demands (seemingly) in this negotiation were the tax cuts for the wealthy and the estate tax. Politically I think this is advantageous for the Pres and Dems
| 369 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:18:11pm |
| 370 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:18:20pm |
re: #162 Lawrence Schmerel
Why would someone who opposes extending the tax cut for those making more than $250,000 a year also support Obama's deal with the Republicans to do it?
Because sometimes you take what you can get.
| 371 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:18:20pm |
re: #365 Walter L. Newton
Walter, please email me- my nic at gmail.
| 372 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:18:40pm |
re: #321 brookly red
It does have its place...as garnish for a mai tai, or scooped out and filled with coconut sorbet.
Just not on a pizza.
| 373 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:19:04pm |
re: #166 tradewind
No more so than those here who seem to have the scoop on mine.
Obama has given plenty of oral clues as to his fondness for the will of the people, mocking their stubborn clinging to religion, their affinity for the second amendment, and even their ability to understand issues.
You really don't understand what that comment was about. But never mind.
| 374 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:19:11pm |
re: #364 JasonA
I always picture him with European Techno music playing in the background.
Yes :D
He's got like his own club with the mirrored glass that looks on the dance floor, like the scene in the Crow where Thrill Kill Kult is playing
| 375 |
sagehen Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:19:13pm |
re: #18 blueraven
So you are concerned with headlines instead of the fact that taxes could go up for the middle class? And maybe if this deal wasn't made, a permanent tax cut for the top 2% in the next congress?
Or they could have refused to deal, let all the cuts expire... and then in January, pass a brand new cut just for low- and middle-income people.
In the meantime, the lame duck would have limped home without doing unemployment, START or DADT.
| 376 |
wrenchwench Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:19:20pm |
| 377 |
freetoken Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:19:36pm |
Teaching children to use sunscreen... What's next, trying to get them to eat healthily?
When will we stop being burdened with these Soros-planned plots to destroy American society?
| 378 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:19:56pm |
re: #370 SanFranciscoZionist
Because sometimes you take what you can get.
You'd think this wouldn't be hard to understand
"I approve of compromise sometimes! I guess that makes me INSANE"
| 379 |
Spocomptonite Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:20:00pm |
re: #338 Walter L. Newton
Welcome back... two days ago I queried you about Helen's Thomas' recent remarks in Detroit... we were talking about her if you remember...
[Link: www.pressandguide.com...]
I asked you if you agreed with any of her comments she made about Israel the other night.
I missed your answer.
"Welcome back"? I never left. And I don't defend her statements nor agree with them. I think I actually said no one would, so you must be misinterpreting me. Fair enough; I think I was misinterpreting your reply to SFZ in the first place. And I don't know why you are bringing this up again, here. Dead thread is dead and has no relation to thread still alive.
| 380 |
engineer cat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:20:04pm |
re: #353 tradewind
Oh noes, not another literalist./
oh, when called on it, it's 'just a joke'. listen buster, i just put a check for $3,800 in the mail for 1/2 of my yearly propery tax bill. still wanna trade?
i think the difference between you and me is that when i pay taxes i'm 1) grateful to be making so much money that i'm in a high tax bracket, 2) grateful to be able to pay for my house and the property taxes that keep my community nice, and 3) grateful to have the good luck to have been born into this great country where paying taxes helps keep me safe and comfortable
it's all in your attitude - if you want to be resentful all your life for having to do your part to help keep the place up, be my guest
| 381 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:20:28pm |
re: #194 tradewind
Fine. Amended to ' people in flyover country who didn't vote for me '.
Except that a hell of a lot of flyover country...voted for him.
It's a purple nation.
| 382 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:20:59pm |
re: #371 researchok
Walter, please email me- my nic at gmail.
You mean your LGF screen name at gmail? Or is there a email link I'm missing at your wordpress blog?
| 383 |
engineer cat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:21:35pm |
re: #309 Walter L. Newton
Those same American people have been called stupid and uneducated on LGF. I guess that majority of Americans are only Democrats... LOL.
you know, walter, i have been re-reading this, and i'm still not really sure what your point is
| 385 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:22:00pm |
re: #376 wrenchwench
I need to do a thing for the next portland irate festival here, like some street rat crossdressing serving wench thing, I have a few months to come up with an outfit :D The pirate festival is sort of like a heavy metal renaissance fair, more yelling and yarrrring and dreads and crazy outfits and explosions and rock and roll and leather
| 386 |
wrenchwench Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:22:08pm |
poolguy(Logged in)
Registered since: Aug 28, 2007 at 6:08 pm
No. of comments posted: 0
No. of Pages posted: 0
I do believe Paulians are responding to the call of the Internet Poll.
| 387 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:22:10pm |
re: #368 mr.fusion
As an old lefty, I'm a little amused at how we came to stand for the middle class.
| 388 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:22:18pm |
re: #379 Spocomptonite
"Welcome back"? I never left. And I don't defend her statements nor agree with them. I think I actually said no one would, so you must be misinterpreting me. Fair enough; I think I was misinterpreting your reply to SFZ in the first place. And I don't know why you are bringing this up again, here. Dead thread is dead and has no relation to thread still alive.
Just curious... and this thread has gone off topic a while ago... almost anything is game... ok... thread police?
| 390 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:22:59pm |
| 391 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:23:07pm |
re: #360 Gus 802
I'll send you some if you tell me how.
Coffee's not an option.
| 392 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:23:12pm |
re: #387 Decatur Deb
As an old lefty, I'm a little amused at how we came to stand for the middle class.
Like flies to shit. They see "Ron Paul" on a poll even when the name is no where to be found.
| 393 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:23:14pm |
re: #377 freetoken
Teaching children to use sunscreen... What's next, trying to get them to eat healthily?
When will we stop being burdened with these Soros-planned plots to destroy American society?
The Republican War on Sunscreen!
| 394 |
wrenchwench Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:23:29pm |
re: #385 WindUpBird
I need to do a thing for the next portland irate festival here, like some street rat crossdressing serving wench thing, I have a few months to come up with an outfit :D The pirate festival is sort of like a heavy metal renaissance fair, more yelling and yarrring and dreads and crazy outfits and explosions and rock and roll and leather
It's almost enough to get me to move back....
| 395 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:23:34pm |
| 396 |
Four More Tears Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:24:26pm |
| 397 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:25:00pm |
re: #393 Charles
The Republican War on Sunscreen!
You know what's sad? That line is becoming less humorous and more real.
| 398 |
Varek Raith Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:25:06pm |
re: #396 JasonA
There's a Boehner joke in there somewhere...
He's a pumpkin.
Or
A Twilight vampire.
Haven't decided.
:P
| 399 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:25:24pm |
re: #384 researchok
Anybody else feel the sudden urge to send someone Knock-knock jokes and fake herbal viagra ads?
| 400 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:25:44pm |
re: #380 engineer dog
I think my taxes are too high, yes. I'm not alone. There's no doubt in my mind that the government tax process promotes waste and fraud. No business would tolerate it for long and survive.
I realize that taxes are necessary for the running of the government. What I resent is when they're wasted on pure crap. **
** my definition of pure crap doesn't include help for those who need it, btw.
| 401 |
Spocomptonite Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:25:49pm |
re: #393 Charles
The Republican War on Sunscreen!
It certainly explains why most of them are so white.
///
| 402 |
Four More Tears Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:25:49pm |
re: #399 EmmmieG
Anybody else feel the sudden urge to send someone Knock-knock jokes and fake herbal viagra ads?
Done.
/
| 403 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:26:28pm |
re: #392 Walter L. Newton
I think you were shooting for 386. Time to re-zero the ol' scope.
| 406 |
Varek Raith Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:27:23pm |
re: #403 Decatur Deb
I think you were shooting for 386. Time to re-zero the ol' scope.
Why?
Just edit it post-production.
/
| 407 |
garhighway Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:28:00pm |
re: #400 tradewind
I think my taxes are too high, yes. I'm not alone. There's no doubt in my mind that the government tax process promotes waste and fraud. No business would tolerate it for long and survive.
I realize that taxes are necessary for the running of the government. What I resent is when they're wasted on pure crap. **
** my definition of pure crap doesn't include help for those who need it, btw.
The problem is that everyone's definition of "pure crap" varies. For some it's farm subsidies. For others it's the FDA. Getting enough political consensus to really attack the deficit requires everyone agreeing to cut something they really like. So far, that hasn't been possible.
| 408 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:28:18pm |
re: #406 Varek Raith
Why?
Just edit it post-production.
/
We're going to loop in the dialog again later... I don't like natural sound from the set... to hollow.
| 409 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:28:27pm |
re: #399 EmmmieG
Anybody else feel the sudden urge to send someone Knock-knock jokes and fake herbal viagra ads?
Yeah, yeah, I get it...
| 410 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:29:44pm |
| 411 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:30:14pm |
re: #393 Charles
Well, just to poke that fire.... the NHS is doing research re the idea that many popular sunscreens are actually acting as carcinogens
( has to do with PABA and octinoxates, homosolates, etc).
Not my idea.
| 412 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:31:18pm |
re: #407 garhighway
Oh, I'm much easier there. My definition of pure crap is more along the lines of ' mega research grants to study whether or not children are harmed by too much television '.
| 413 |
engineer cat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:31:58pm |
re: #400 tradewind
I think my taxes are too high, yes. I'm not alone. There's no doubt in my mind that the government tax process promotes waste and fraud. No business would tolerate it for long and survive.
I realize that taxes are necessary for the running of the government. What I resent is when they're wasted on pure crap. **
** my definition of pure crap doesn't include help for those who need it, btw.
wasted on pure crap
well, imagine that, there are some things you don't like having your taxes spent on! did you think i approved personally of every last thing the government spends money on? i realize, however, i have to share the country with 330 million other people, most of whom also get to vote on what happens here and how our tax money is spent. that's the way it works - none of us gets exactly what we want
and you noticed that there's waste in government! you win a prize! but somehow, you think "No business would tolerate it for long and survive"
so, i guess you don't know much about how businesses are run
| 414 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:32:35pm |
re: #412 tradewind
Oh, I'm much easier there. My definition of pure crap is more along the lines of ' mega research grants to study whether or not children are harmed by too much television '.
If the Federal government never gave another grant to study anything, how much would be pared off the budget, statistically speaking? Does anyone know?
| 415 |
Varek Raith Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:33:12pm |
re: #413 engineer dog
Fucking volcano monitoring.
How does it even work?
:P
| 416 |
sagehen Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:33:17pm |
re: #284 garhighway
What were the marginal rates that JFK put in place?
He cut the top marginal rate from 91% to 70%.
At a time when if people wanted to buy anything it had to be American-made (Europe and Asia still weren't fully rebuilt from WWII, they weren't making any exports).
| 417 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:33:26pm |
re: #414 SanFranciscoZionist
If the Federal government never gave another grant to study anything, how much would be pared off the budget, statistically speaking? Does anyone know?
I'll bet I could get a grant to do that research...
//
| 418 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:33:35pm |
(from the comedy archives)...
So... when I was dating back 3-4 years ago, I answered a legit personal ad on Craigslist, and the woman who placed the ad ACTUALLY SENT ME A QUESTIONNAIRE... so here's how I answered it...
Questions
1. Best quality?
I’m still breathing.
2. Worst quality?
I’m a male.
3. What's in your CD player right now?
I looked… wow… that’s where that sandwich disappeared to.
4. Do you normally wear boxers, briefs or no underwear?
What’s underwear?
5. What clothes are you wearing right now?
A tee shirt and shorts that Goodwill dropped off yesterday.
6. What clothes do you wear to bed?
A tee shirt and shorts that Goodwill dropped off two days ago.
7. Favorite alcoholic drink?
Nyquil.
8. Are there any foods you don't eat or can't eat?
That stuff at the Mission doesn’t taste too good.
9. What's the best dish you cook?
Boiled water.
10. Do you believe in love at first sight?
Not unless there is a dog involved.
11. Kiss on the first date? If no, after how many?
I don’t know… I’ve never gone on a date.
12. Do you smoke cigarettes?
No… too expensive. Would like to try one. Do you have one?
13. Favorite movie (or type)?
“The Modern Farmer” A documentary. Circa. 1953.
14. What is your living arrangement?
No more than one person to a cardboard box.
15. Children? (Have them? How many? Want more?) I have 2.
I love them. Want more. They taste good.
16. Do you like and participate in romance?
See Number 11.
17. Are you religious, if so what religion?
Well… I’ll be damned... I’ve been saved.
18. Why are you single?
See answers 1 through 17 and 19 through 32.
19. What is the ideal number of times to see someone in a week?
The welfare office allows 3 visits a week. Works for me.
20. Biggest turn on’s?
Finding extra meat in a dish of Ham Surprise.
21. Biggest turn offs?
Wet cardboard.
22. When you go out, where do you like to go?
Anyplace I won’t be arrested.
23. Prefer large groups or intimate gatherings?
It depends on the size of the current homeless population.
24. Are you a walker or a hiker?
Honestly… I have trouble crawling.
25. How do you feel about drugs & alcohol?
Is this an offer?
26. What part(s) of your body do you like the most?
The ones that haven’t fallen off yet.
27. What part(s) of a woman's body do you like most?
The space between her toes.
28. Tattoos or piercing?
Is this another offer?
29. How would you describe the way you dress?
Neo-panhandler.
30. Where is your ideal vacation?
East of France… the Burgundy region. Any place between Buxy and Cluny.
31. Perfect date:
Is your mother still alive?
32. Life motto:
“I don’t remember eating that.”
| 419 |
garhighway Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:33:46pm |
re: #412 tradewind
Oh, I'm much easier there. My definition of pure crap is more along the lines of ' mega research grants to study whether or not children are harmed by too much television '.
Only they aren't so mega. They are, compared to the deficit, inconsequential. Cutting them accomplishes damn near nothing.
You don't get anywhere in deficit reduction by playing around with small stuff. You have to address entitlements, the defense budget, and the income side of the ledger or you get nowhere.
| 420 |
prairiefire Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:34:11pm |
re: #380 engineer dog
"it's all in your attitude - if you want to be resentful all your life for having to do your part to help keep the place up, be my guest."
This times 50.
| 421 |
Talking Point Detective Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:34:47pm |
re: #363 freetoken
Today Joe Barton revealed his plan on what he would do if he took over Energy and Commerce.
Among other things he'd like to do monthly reviews of that nastiest of government organizations, the EPA. After-all, it's pretty clear that we have too clean of air and water....
In case that didn't cheer you up: Georgia Rep. Paul Broun, is in line to become the chairman of the Investigations and Oversight panel of the House Science Committee.
and
California Republican Darryl Issa is in line to be chairman of the Oversight and Government Reform Committee.
There's a whole lotta craziness between those two.
| 422 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:34:51pm |
re: #414 SanFranciscoZionist
That was just an example.
Families have to cut expenses when their incomes drop.
No reason why the government should be any different, except that too many people have taken the word ' entitlement ' to heart.
As a description, that used to be a bad thing.
| 423 |
webevintage Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:35:08pm |
The story behind The War On Christmas:
| 424 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:35:44pm |
re: #418 Walter L. Newton
I see slippers, a bathrobe and miles walking in a counter clockwise circle in your future....
//
| 425 |
garhighway Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:35:50pm |
re: #421 Talking Point Detective
In case that didn't cheer you up: Georgia Rep. Paul Broun, is in line to become the chairman of the Investigations and Oversight panel of the House Science Committee.
and
California Republican Darryl Issa is in line to be chairman of the Oversight and Government Reform Committee.
There's a whole lotta craziness between those two.
You are going to be able to fully carpet Constitution Ave with the subpoenas Issa is going to generate starting next month.
| 426 |
Varek Raith Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:36:30pm |
re: #422 tradewind
That was just an example.
Families have to cut expenses when their incomes drop.
No reason why the government should be any different, except that too many people have taken the word ' entitlement ' to heart.
As a description, that used to be a bad thing.
Here's the thing.
I hear statements like yours all the time.
What I don't hear?
Specifics.
And in the off chance I do get a specific, it's inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.
| 427 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:36:49pm |
re: #418 Walter L. Newton
Bet she made copies.
Get any takers?
That was damn funny, though.
| 428 |
garhighway Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:37:21pm |
re: #422 tradewind
That was just an example.
Families have to cut expenses when their incomes drop.
No reason why the government should be any different, except that too many people have taken the word ' entitlement ' to heart.
As a description, that used to be a bad thing.
Here's a bipartisan proposal to balance the budget. What do you think of it?
[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]
| 429 |
Boondock St. Bender Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:37:22pm |
re: #418 Walter L. Newton
that would definitely test if she had a sense of humor
| 430 |
Usually refered to as anyways Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:37:28pm |
Got bad luck?
Driver nabbed by same cop on other side of the world
A motorist caught speeding in London two years ago moved to New Zealand only to be booked by the same police officer for again exceeding the limit, reports said.
Former London bobby Andy Flitton ticketed the man in Britain two years ago, shortly before migrating to New Zealand - then caught him again in September on a highway on the South Island, the New Zealand Herald reported.
Mr Flitton, who now works for the New Zealand traffic police, said he had forgotten about the original booking until the man approached him while he was writing out the ticket.
"He asked if I had worked in London, I said 'yes'. He asked if I used to operate the laser gun on the A5 in North London, I said 'yes'," Mr Flitton told the newspaper.
"And he said 'I thought it was you, you gave me my last speeding ticket there two years ago'."
| 431 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:37:37pm |
re: #425 garhighway
Yeah, that's what Henry Waxman thought, too, but it didn't really pan out for him.
Won't be much different for Issa, I bet.
| 433 |
garhighway Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:38:11pm |
re: #431 tradewind
Yeah, that's what Henry Waxman thought, too, but it didn't really pan out for him.
Won't be much different for Issa, I bet.
I hope you're right.
| 434 |
Boondock St. Bender Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:38:40pm |
re: #423 webevintage
saw it last nite... loved it!
| 435 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:39:23pm |
Must resist temptation to criticize government program.
//Bite tongue.
/
| 436 |
wrenchwench Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:40:40pm |
My sister's Venezuelan fiance just had his visa approved.
Yay!
| 437 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:40:47pm |
My boys have just discovered cake boss. This means my kitchen is currently a huge wreck. I keep cautioning them that their creations are not going to look like Buddy's.
Which brings me to my tax gripe.
Smaller, family-run businesses (like Carlo's, or a family farm) should be somehow recognized and exempted under the law. For example, the tax is put off until you sell your share. If you don't sell, but hold it (and work there), you don't have to pay the taxes. Really big businesses (like the Hilton chain of hotels) would not qualify.
There has to be a way to write this in.
| 438 |
Varek Raith Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:40:51pm |
re: #435 Gus 802
Must resist temptation to criticize government program.
//Bite tongue.
/
Please, criticize!
I like specifics.
;)
| 439 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:41:15pm |
re: #428 garhighway
You had me at ' Esquire Magazine's Commission to Balance the Budget ', but when I saw it was written in part by Lawrence O' Donnell of MSNBC, I really swooned.//
| 440 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:41:41pm |
re: #427 tradewind
re: #429 Boondock St. Bender
re: #432 Decatur Deb
Thanks...
I posted that about 3 years ago or so on LGF, and yes, it was really something sent to me and yes, I really did answer the questions the way I did. I was testing for a sense of humor, because there is no way to put up with me unless you have a sense of the bizarre.
Never got a reply.
| 441 |
engineer cat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:42:12pm |
re: #400 tradewind
I think my taxes are too high
well, this is simple to solve. every year the government spends about half again as much as it takes in. so, all you would have to do - for starters - is to identify one third of the federal budget that you would cut, and then get congress to pass those cuts
but wait! then we would only be balancing the budget. you would still have to cut some more before our taxes could go down
here's a handy breakdown of the federal budget:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
please let us know when you've passed those massive cuts! thanks!
| 442 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:43:13pm |
re: #438 Varek Raith
Please, criticize!
I like specifics.
;)
I don't have enough information yet. Can't find the budget for a particular program. I'm just a little curious why people might have the attitude like "if it's a government program" it has to be good. Or for that matter efficient. Then it become one of the many thousands of government funded programs that are considered untouchable to budget cuts. Especially if you throw in the "don't you care about the children?" memes.
| 443 |
Boondock St. Bender Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:43:23pm |
re: #437 EmmmieG
unfortunately those folks have no lobbyists,nor do they make large contributions to campaigns.
| 444 |
Boondock St. Bender Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:44:05pm |
re: #440 Walter L. Newton
you dodged a bullet walter!good for you!
| 445 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:44:08pm |
re: #414 SanFranciscoZionist
If the Federal government never gave another grant to study anything, how much would be pared off the budget, statistically speaking? Does anyone know?
I don't think nearly enough.
Here's how I think it works:
Everybody has something they believe the gov't should cut, some wasteful or unnecessary project. Just as many people will have good arguments as to why this or that project is a good one, and necessary. But I don't believe cutting this and that and one more little project really saves much money.
What needs to happen for big savings is to have an entire program (not a little project within the program), revamped entirely or eliminated.
Clinton make big changes to welfare, and costs were reduced IIRC.
But there aren't many politicians willing to take on such a huge overhaul of a program or to eliminate it. If they're not willing to do that, the only way to keep spending at basically a static level is to stop ADDING new programs. But I don't see that happening, either.
| 446 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:44:32pm |
The sun is not quite down yet and it's 29 degrees (f) already...
| 447 |
Varek Raith Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:44:38pm |
re: #442 Gus 802
I don't have enough information yet. Can't find the budget for a particular program. I'm just a little curious why people might have the attitude like "if it's a government program" it has to be good. Or for that matter efficient. Then it become one of the many thousands of government funded programs that are considered untouchable to budget cuts. Especially if you throw in the "don't you care about the children?" memes.
True.
I got ideas.
They're somewhat small areas that are wasteful, but it does help.
Mostly crap that Congress forces on the Pentagon.
| 448 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:44:52pm |
| 449 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:45:32pm |
re: #441 engineer dog
well, this is simple to solve. every year the government spends about half again as much as it takes in. so, all you would have to do - for starters - is to identify one third of the federal budget that you would cut, and then get congress to pass those cuts
but wait! then we would only be balancing the budget. you would still have to cut some more before our taxes could go down
here's a handy breakdown of the federal budget:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
please let us know when you've passed those massive cuts! thanks!
/maybe we could start making smaller countries pay for protection?
| 450 |
Varek Raith Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:45:44pm |
re: #448 Walter L. Newton
Or she did!
Considering the in depth questionnaire she sent ya, you'd have driven her bat shit crazy.
:)
| 451 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:46:08pm |
re: #443 Boondock St. Bender
unfortunately those folks have no lobbyists,nor do they make large contributions to campaigns.
In one such case (small family business, employed only family members, not a lot of income generated per employee, but high value to community), a trust was created for them which saved the business by slowly buying up assets from their heirs, allowing them to continue working.
Nobody would do this for, say, a real estate appraisal company.
| 452 |
Four More Tears Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:46:35pm |
re: #449 brookly red
/maybe we could start making smaller countries pay for protection?
Psst. South Korea. He's talking about you.
| 453 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:46:43pm |
re: #433 garhighway
But seriously, there's a place for cutting military spending, such as overseas. This graph has some serious gaps, however, and their baseline (631 b) is totally off from the CBO's, not even in the territory...
[Link: www.cbo.gov...]
| 454 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:46:52pm |
re: #450 Varek Raith
Considering the in depth questionnaire she sent ya, you'd have driven her bat shit crazy.
:)
My girlfriend frequently introduces me as her "domestic comedian."
| 455 |
Four More Tears Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:47:29pm |
re: #454 Walter L. Newton
My girlfriend frequently introduces me as her "domestic comedian."
You've been domesticated?
| 456 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:47:32pm |
re: #449 brookly red
/maybe we could start making smaller countries pay for protection?
Or we bust out their windows.
| 457 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:47:59pm |
re: #447 Varek Raith
True.
I got ideas.
They're somewhat small areas that are wasteful, but it does help.
Mostly crap that Congress forces on the Pentagon.
OK, found the funding. It was for the Sunwise program which is the sun screen program. It's a piddly $926000 per year. For a nationwide PR campaign it's pretty low. They provide a cost benefit analysis there.
I'm sure the sunscreen industry loves it.
Next!
| 458 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:48:05pm |
re: #441 engineer dog
There's something strange about giving tax ' refunds ' to people who pay no income tax at all.
That's one place to start.
| 459 |
sagehen Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:48:09pm |
re: #412 tradewind
Oh, I'm much easier there. My definition of pure crap is more along the lines of ' mega research grants to study whether or not children are harmed by too much television '.
Mine definition of pure crap is "the war in Iraq."
If we count the cost of extended VA benefits, that's about three trillion dollars. Plus, of course, the thousands of American lives, hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives, and America's loss of prestige and trust.
| 460 |
researchok Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:48:18pm |
re: #440 Walter L. Newton
re: #429 Boondock St. Bender
re: #432 Decatur Deb
Thanks...
I posted that about 3 years ago or so on LGF, and yes, it was really something sent to me and yes, I really did answer the questions the way I did. I was testing for a sense of humor, because there is no way to put up with me unless you have a sense of the bizarre.
Never got a reply.
No reply?
Hard to believe...
//
| 461 |
Varek Raith Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:48:27pm |
re: #456 Walter L. Newton
Or we bust out their windows.
Give me a crowbar, trench coat and a fedora.
I'll learn 'em!
/
| 462 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:48:30pm |
re: #455 JasonA
You've been domesticated?
Sort of... I still shit in the hallway on my way to the bathroom.
| 463 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:48:44pm |
re: #456 Walter L. Newton
Or we bust out their windows.
nice beach you got there... it would be a shame some oil was to was up on it.
| 464 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:49:04pm |
re: #449 brookly red
/maybe we could start making smaller countries pay for protection?
We pay rent on the bases we use to protect a lot of places. We just don't understand the rackets.
| 465 |
wrenchwench Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:49:06pm |
re: #455 JasonA
You've been domesticated?
That was my thought.
I think I have a feral comedian at home.
| 466 |
Four More Tears Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:50:12pm |
re: #462 Walter L. Newton
Sort of... I still shit in the hallway on my way to the bathroom.
I'm actually impressed you don't just go in your pants.
| 467 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:50:39pm |
re: #459 sagehen
Way too much to hash over here, but Afghanistan is area where no one's fishing, so time to cut bait.
| 468 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:50:41pm |
re: #466 JasonA
I'm actually impressed you don't just go in your pants.
That's the domesticated part.
| 469 |
engineer cat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:50:42pm |
re: #458 tradewind
There's something strange about giving tax ' refunds ' to people who pay no income tax at all.
That's one place to start.
how does one qualify? how much do they get? how much does it cost, total? do you have a link to something that gives details? what percentage of the federal budget would be cut?
| 470 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:51:12pm |
re: #464 Decatur Deb
We pay rent on the bases we use to protect a lot of places. We just don't understand the rackets.
/you know these nukes are old like from the 60s... sometimes dey get unpredictable like.
| 471 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:51:32pm |
re: #400 tradewind
I think my taxes are too high, yes
Well sure, because you're paying them, of course you think they're too high
it's a meaningless opinion, it's like saying "My house isn't big enough" or "I'm not beautiful enough"
| 472 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:51:47pm |
re: #469 engineer dog
Sorry, above my pay grade.
And past my supper...
Out.
Rest in peace, Mrs Edwards. So sad.
| 473 |
Varek Raith Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:52:08pm |
re: #470 brookly red
/you know these nukes are old like from the 60s... sometimes dey get unpredictable like.
Wouldn't want anything...unforeseen to happen, would you?
| 474 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:52:19pm |
re: #452 JasonA
Psst. South Korea. He's talking about you.
////Nice Peninsula you got hear, be a shamed if it caught fire....
| 475 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:52:55pm |
re: #470 brookly red
/you know these nukes are old like from the 60s... sometimes dey get unpredictable like.
Site Pluto
[Link: www.google.com...]
| 476 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:53:27pm |
Here you go. How to protect yourself from sun exposure.
1. Wear a hat.
2. Wear sunglasses with a UV filter.
3. Use sunscreen of SPF 15 or higher.
4. Reapply sunscreen after swimming or intense sweating.
5. Wear long sleeve shirts and long pants when exposed to the sun for long periods of time.
6. Avoid sun exposure during high ozone days.
End of seminar.
Price: free.
| 477 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:53:49pm |
re: #467 tradewind
Way too much to hash over here, but Afghanistan is area where no one's fishing, so time to cut bait.
CUT AND RUN CUT AND RUN CUT AND RUN CUT AND RUN CUT AND RUN!
Ha, now you know how it feels!
(No hard feelings)
| 478 |
palomino Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:54:28pm |
re: #393 Charles
The Republican War on Sunscreen!
Goes right along with the Republican War on Fruits and Vegetables. How dare Michelle Obama suggest that fat kids eat less fat? It's not like we're the fattest country in the world; we're no. 2.
Help! Obama and his skinny healthy wife are trying to control every aspect of my life.
| 479 |
Boondock St. Bender Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:54:29pm |
re: #471 WindUpBird
now now i'm sure you're plenty beautiful...
as for the house paint it ,flip it! move to a giant place you can't afford then flip that......oh wait that was part of how we got in this mess...
| 480 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:54:31pm |
re: #476 Gus 802
Here you go. How to protect yourself from sun exposure.
1. Wear a hat.
2. Wear sunglasses with a UV filter.
3. Use sunscreen of SPF 15 or higher.
4. Reapply sunscreen after swimming or intense sweating.
5. Wear long sleeve shirts and long pants when exposed to the sun for long periods of time.
6. Avoid sun exposure during high ozone days.End of seminar.
Price: free.
7. only go out at night...
| 481 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:54:57pm |
Next Tuesday is National Hot Coffee is Hot Day.
It's to spread awareness that hot coffee is hot and can sometimes cause burns.
//
| 482 |
Varek Raith Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:54:59pm |
| 483 |
Boondock St. Bender Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:56:07pm |
re: #482 Varek Raith
the sun is the enemy ...it must be destroyed....next on glenn beck
| 484 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:56:07pm |
re: #476 Gus 802
Here you go. How to protect yourself from sun exposure.
1. Wear a hat.
2. Wear sunglasses with a UV filter.
3. Use sunscreen of SPF 15 or higher.
4. Reapply sunscreen after swimming or intense sweating.
5. Wear long sleeve shirts and long pants when exposed to the sun for long periods of time.
6. Avoid sun exposure during high ozone days.End of seminar.
Price: free.
Wow... that's good information... since you put it on the interwebs, it may go viral.
| 485 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:56:50pm |
Did Liebermann say that wikileaks was perhaps the greatest act of espionage in US history?
Liebermann says the stupidest things, what a dumb douchebag, just unreal
| 487 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:57:18pm |
| 488 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:57:29pm |
re: #484 Walter L. Newton
Wow... that's good information... since you put it on the interwebs, it may go viral.
Boy I'm in trouble. That just flowed from my fingers.
Did you know that running with scissors is dangerous?
| 489 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:57:57pm |
re: #476 Gus 802
Here you go. How to protect yourself from sun exposure.
1. Wear a hat.
2. Wear sunglasses with a UV filter.
3. Use sunscreen of SPF 15 or higher.
4. Reapply sunscreen after swimming or intense sweating.
5. Wear long sleeve shirts and long pants when exposed to the sun for long periods of time.
6. Avoid sun exposure during high ozone days.End of seminar.
Price: free.
I just stay indoors!
| 490 |
sagehen Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:58:04pm |
re: #440 Walter L. Newton
I posted that about 3 years ago or so on LGF, and yes, it was really something sent to me and yes, I really did answer the questions the way I did. I was testing for a sense of humor, because there is no way to put up with me unless you have a sense of the bizarre.
Never got a reply.
I'm sure she had a sense of humor, it just wasn't the same as yours.
| 492 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:58:29pm |
re: #474 jamesfirecat
///Nice Peninsula you got hear, be a shamed if it caught fire...
yeah, like that
| 493 |
Boondock St. Bender Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:58:51pm |
re: #488 Gus 802
hey someone patented "the stick"and "method of swinging on a swing"
run with it my boy!
| 494 |
Varek Raith Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:59:03pm |
re: #485 WindUpBird
Did Liebermann say that wikileaks was perhaps the greatest act of espionage in US history?
Liebermann says the stupidest things, what a dumb douchebag, just unreal
Yeah...
I'd rank the Soviets stealing our nuclear technology way higher...
| 495 |
palomino Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:59:06pm |
re: #422 tradewind
That was just an example.
Families have to cut expenses when their incomes drop.
No reason why the government should be any different, except that too many people have taken the word ' entitlement ' to heart.
As a description, that used to be a bad thing.
The vast majority of the entitlements we owe are to people who paid into the system for decades, in the form of SS and Medicare.
BUT you'll have to eventually have serious entitlement reform, especially with the fastest growing part of the budget--Medicare--whose costs are skyrocketing, if you don't want tax hikes in the not too distant future.
| 496 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:59:09pm |
re: #488 Gus 802
Boy I'm in trouble. That just flowed from my fingers.
Did you know that running with scissors is dangerous?
And McDonalds food is fattening... and to much booze will make driving a car dangerous... and there is too much dog poop on the streets of Paris...
| 497 |
palomino Tue, Dec 7, 2010 3:59:41pm |
re: #426 Varek Raith
Here's the thing.
I hear statements like yours all the time.
What I don't hear?
Specifics.
And in the off chance I do get a specific, it's inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.
EARMARKS!
| 498 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:00:37pm |
re: #496 Walter L. Newton
And McDonalds food is fattening... and to much booze will make driving a car dangerous... and there is too much dog poop on the streets of Paris...
I read somewhere once that drinking too much can also cause cirrhosis of the liver. Not sure though because it doesn't really say so on the bottle of booze I'm drinking.
| 499 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:01:29pm |
re: #490 sagehen
I posted that about 3 years ago or so on LGF, and yes, it was really something sent to me and yes, I really did answer the questions the way I did. I was testing for a sense of humor, because there is no way to put up with me unless you have a sense of the bizarre.
Never got a reply.
I'm sure she had a sense of humor, it just wasn't the same as yours.
No... she really didn't. I did a little internet sleuthing and discovered that she was really a Tibetan nun who has been living with a yak for 25 years... it was the first time she had ever seen the internet and... well... it was a "nuns go wild" sort of moment on her part.
Que sera, sera.
| 500 |
darthstar Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:01:46pm |
Fortunately, I'm pissed off enough about normal work shit that I don't have the energy to get worked up over this issue right now. I do hope that the President has some grand plan that will work in his favor (create jobs, reduce the deficit, etc.) because if those things don't happen the Republicans will be saying it was irresponsible for him to work with them.
| 501 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:03:18pm |
re: #500 darthstar
Fortunately, I'm pissed off enough about normal work shit that I don't have the energy to get worked up over this issue right now. I do hope that the President has some grand plan that will work in his favor (create jobs, reduce the deficit, etc.) because if those things don't happen the Republicans will be saying it was irresponsible for him to work with them.
huh?
| 502 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:03:26pm |
Next Wednesday is National Eat Ice Cream too Fast Day Will Give You an Ice Cream Headache Day.
Did you know that 1.3 people day globally from ice cream headaches annually?
| 503 |
Boondock St. Bender Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:03:30pm |
well.the gubbmint can do what we unwashed shlubs do when we're out of cash.cut back all across the board(entitlements like ss or medicare exepted only)not eliminateing whole programs,but all cut by some percentage.if one has to tighten it's belt all have to.
| 504 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:04:03pm |
re: #488 Gus 802
Boy I'm in trouble. That just flowed from my fingers.
Did you know that running with scissors is dangerous?
link please?
| 505 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:04:11pm |
re: #502 Gus 802
Next Wednesday is National Eat Ice Cream too Fast Day Will Give You an Ice Cream Headache Day.
Did you know that 1.3 people
day globally from ice cream headaches annuallydie annually as a direct result of ice cream headaches?
| 506 |
darthstar Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:05:08pm |
re: #501 brookly red
huh?
You know...Republican logic. He can't be trusted to be president because he works with Republicans, so we should have a Republican president who won't work with Democrats.
| 507 |
Boondock St. Bender Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:05:15pm |
re: #502 Gus 802
Ice cream the sweet seductive killer....it must be destroyed....next on glenn beck
| 508 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:05:45pm |
re: #476 Gus 802
Here you go. How to protect yourself from sun exposure.
1. Wear a hat.
2. Wear sunglasses with a UV filter.
3. Use sunscreen of SPF 15 or higher.
4. Reapply sunscreen after swimming or intense sweating.
5. Wear long sleeve shirts and long pants when exposed to the sun for long periods of time.
6. Avoid sun exposure during high ozone days.End of seminar.
Price: free.
There's your job opportunity, Gus.
| 509 |
Boondock St. Bender Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:05:56pm |
re: #506 darthstar
well....yeah
isn't that the way it's supposed to work?
| 510 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:05:57pm |
re: #506 darthstar
You know...Republican logic. He can't be trusted to be president because he works with Republicans, so we should have a Republican president who won't work with Democrats.
put the bong down.
| 511 |
palomino Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:07:22pm |
re: #503 Boondock St. Bender
well.the gubbmint can do what we unwashed shlubs do when we're out of cash.cut back all across the board(entitlements like ss or medicare exepted only)not eliminateing whole programs,but all cut by some percentage.if one has to tighten it's belt all have to.
It's what the British are currently doing. An austerity plan like this has risks in terms of economic growth. But if you really want to balance a budget, across the board cuts (in Britain, to the military and even to their version of SS, but not medicare) and some tax increases are really the only sure thing. Brits are increasing taxes on everyone over 75k. Sounds harsh and painful, but it will work to balance their books.
| 512 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:07:33pm |
re: #507 Boondock St. Bender
Ice cream the sweet seductive killer...it must be destroyed...next on glenn beck
Yeah. I knew somebody that used to eat a whole carton of ice cream a day and gained a lot of weight. Thing is that it didn't say anything about that on the ice cream container. Had he known he wouldn't have eaten so much and gained all that weight.
| 513 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:08:03pm |
re: #499 Walter L. Newton
No... she really didn't. I did a little internet sleuthing and discovered that she was really a Tibetan nun who has been living with a yak for 25 years... it was the first time she had ever seen the internet and... well... it was a "nuns go wild" sort of moment on her part.
Que sera, sera.
BS. no one stays with the same yak for 25 years...
| 514 |
palomino Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:08:32pm |
| 515 |
blueraven Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:08:42pm |
re: #457 Gus 802
OK, found the funding. It was for the Sunwise program which is the sun screen program. It's a piddly $926000 per year. For a nationwide PR campaign it's pretty low. They provide a cost benefit analysis there.
I'm sure the sunscreen industry loves it.
Next!
But from that same article Gus:
RESULTS. Economic analysis indicated that if the SunWise School Program continues through 2015 at current funding levels, then it should avert >50 premature deaths, nearly 11000 skin cancer cases, and 960 quality-adjusted life-years (undiscounted) among its participants. For every dollar invested in SunWise, between approximately $2 and $4 in medical care costs and productivity losses are saved, depending on the funding scenario.
CONCLUSIONS. From a cost/benefit and cost-effectiveness perspective, it is worthwhile to educate children about sun safety; small to modest behavioral impacts may result in significant reductions in skin cancer incidence and mortality.
| 516 |
Boondock St. Bender Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:09:16pm |
re: #511 palomino
if balancing the books is the goal there is really only one sure way.
| 517 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:10:09pm |
re: #514 palomino
Wow, a pot joke.
Is it 1972? Are you Archie Bunker?
sure... just explaine what he just said in plain English & I will give you a joint.
| 519 |
palomino Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:11:07pm |
re: #516 Boondock St. Bender
if balancing the books is the goal there is really only one sure way.
And the Brits, adults that they are, have admitted this and are now pursuing it. It may hurt their econ. growth, but they're willing to make sacrifices to get balanced.
| 520 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:11:34pm |
re: #516 Boondock St. Bender
if balancing the books is the goal there is really only one sure way.
Don't count the wars?
| 521 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:11:47pm |
re: #515 blueraven
But from that same article Gus:
Which is why I noted that there was a cost benefit analysis there. Protection from sun exposure isn't only accomplished by applying sun screen or sun block and forgetting about it. In fact the application of said lotions are still contested as a means of preventing skin cancers. Others have been found to accelerate skin cancer.
| 522 |
darthstar Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:11:52pm |
re: #516 Boondock St. Bender
if balancing the books is the goal there is really only one sure way.
| 523 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:12:27pm |
| 524 |
Boondock St. Bender Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:12:43pm |
re: #519 palomino
balancing the books should pay off in the long run.One of our prob;ems is we're infected with quarterly thinking.
| 525 |
palomino Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:12:51pm |
re: #517 brookly red
sure... just explaine what he just said in plain English & I will give you a joint.
I think he's being satirical, but only he can explain what he meant.
As for joints, no thanks. I doubt you've got the good stuff.
| 526 |
robdouth Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:13:34pm |
The poll results are sad. It shows people would rather penalize the rich with higher rates then increase tax revenues overall. Also apparently the vast majority of LGF readership want the poor paying a higher percentage of the tax burden, which will undoubtedly be the two results of this tax increase.
| 527 |
Boondock St. Bender Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:14:05pm |
re: #520 Decatur Deb
not unless you allow looting invaded
countries.....then whats the point?
| 528 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:14:52pm |
re: #508 reine.de.tout
There's your job opportunity, Gus.
it is seasonal but I have charged to apply sun screen... OK wtf I have charged to apply a lot of things.
| 529 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:15:16pm |
re: #527 Boondock St. Bender
not unless you allow looting invaded
countries...then whats the point?
"The war will pay for itself."
-Agammennon
| 530 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:15:51pm |
re: #526 robdouth
The poll results are sad. It shows people would rather penalize the rich with higher rates then increase tax revenues overall. Also apparently the vast majority of LGF readership want the poor paying a higher percentage of the tax burden, which will undoubtedly be the two results of this tax increase.
What tax increase?
| 531 |
b_Snark Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:15:55pm |
re: #526 robdouth
The poll results are sad. It shows people would rather penalize the rich with higher rates then increase tax revenues overall. Also apparently the vast majority of LGF readership want the poor paying a higher percentage of the tax burden, which will undoubtedly be the two results of this tax increase.
Were you standing on your head when you read the polls?
| 532 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:16:19pm |
re: #526 robdouth
The poll results are sad. It shows people would rather penalize the rich with higher rates then increase tax revenues overall. Also apparently the vast majority of LGF readership want the poor paying a higher percentage of the tax burden, which will undoubtedly be the two results of this tax increase.
We gave you rich guys 7/9 years of Bush Tax cuts.
You gave us the worse decade in job growth since the Great Depression and a widening gap between how much you have and how much we have.
If you want to live in a nation with a huge gap between the rich and the poor move to Dubai....
| 533 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:16:32pm |
re: #527 Boondock St. Bender
not unless you allow looting invaded
countries...then whats the point?
/I am still waiting for the Iraqi oil we went to war for...
| 534 |
robdouth Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:16:38pm |
re: #530 reine.de.tout
Seriously? So you're going to claim that wanting to extend the current tax rate is not a tax increase?
| 535 |
Boondock St. Bender Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:17:03pm |
re: #529 Decatur Deb
that was when all you had to do was give a soildier a sharp stick
nowadays you would need to invade ft.knox and the fed to make it pay....
| 536 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:17:10pm |
re: #526 robdouth
The poll results are sad. It shows people would rather penalize the rich with higher rates then increase tax revenues overall. Also apparently the vast majority of LGF readership want the poor paying a higher percentage of the tax burden, which will undoubtedly be the two results of this tax increase.
Also how the f*** does raising taxes on the poor but not the rich mean the poor end up paying a higher percentage of the tax burden?
It's mind bottling!
| 537 |
b_Snark Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:17:43pm |
re: #530 reine.de.tout
What tax increase?
You know, the increase from not letting a tax decrease lapse, ... or something like that. I found the logic difficult to follow.
| 541 |
webevintage Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:18:47pm |
re: #534 robdouth
Seriously? So you're going to claim that wanting to extend the current tax rate is not a tax increase?
huh?
| 542 |
b_Snark Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:19:04pm |
re: #536 jamesfirecat
Also how the f*** does raising taxes on the poor but not the rich mean the poor end up paying a higher percentage of the tax burden?
It's mind bottling!
Some people find their minds seriously stuck in those bottles.
| 544 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:20:22pm |
re: #542 b_sharp
Some people find their minds seriously stuck in those bottles.
Better the mind than the...
| 545 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:20:53pm |
re: #534 robdouth
Seriously? So you're going to claim that wanting to extend the current tax rate is not a tax increase?
extend current = increase?... (hmmm, it must be that new math stuff. I was never good at liberal math... maybe I should just avoid this...)
yeah right on!
| 546 |
robdouth Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:21:31pm |
re: #532 jamesfirecat
I can do non-sequitirs also:
We gave you multiple years of Indianapolis and New England in the superbowl, and you gave me the worst decade of growth, blah blah blah.
One was not the result of the other. The housing market bust, was not related to tax rates. When tax rates drop and tax revenues increase, why can't you understand the positive of that. When tax rates drop and the top taxpayers bear a higher percent of the burden, why isn't that a good thing?
The tax rate should not have been sold as a boost to the economy, it should only be looked at for the one thing it directly effects. Total tax revenue. Since raising the tax rate on the rich will drop tax revenues going forward if you adjust for regular GDP growth, doesn't it just become punitive and mean-spirited to everyone?
| 547 |
webevintage Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:23:11pm |
re: #546 robdouth
I can do non-sequitirs also:
We gave you multiple years of Indianapolis and New England in the superbowl, and you gave me the worst decade of growth, blah blah blah.
One was not the result of the other. The housing market bust, was not related to tax rates. When tax rates drop and tax revenues increase, why can't you understand the positive of that. When tax rates drop and the top taxpayers bear a higher percent of the burden, why isn't that a good thing?
The tax rate should not have been sold as a boost to the economy, it should only be looked at for the one thing it directly effects. Total tax revenue. Since raising the tax rate on the rich will drop tax revenues going forward if you adjust for regular GDP growth, doesn't it just become punitive and mean-spirited to everyone?
huh?
and who is this "you"?
| 548 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:23:11pm |
Glenn Beck: Julian Assange's "truth" will set us free.....
Glenn Beck's bizarre "timeline of events" behind Assange arrest
..but I suppose a lot of people here won't be outraged by that.
| 549 |
b_Snark Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:23:12pm |
| 550 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:23:27pm |
re: #545 brookly red
extend current = increase?... (hmmm, it must be that new math stuff. I was never good at liberal math... maybe I should just avoid this...)
yeah right on!
Ending the mortgage interest deduction is another good idea.
//
| 551 |
robdouth Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:23:27pm |
re: #541 webevintage
meant to say do you mean not wanting to extend the current tax rates is not actually an increase. Need to proofread before submitting.
| 552 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:23:39pm |
re: #422 tradewind
That was just an example.
Families have to cut expenses when their incomes drop.
No reason why the government should be any different, except that too many people have taken the word ' entitlement ' to heart.
As a description, that used to be a bad thing.
An entitlement is something the government pays for for someone other than myself.
| 553 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:24:06pm |
| 554 |
b_Snark Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:25:54pm |
re: #546 robdouth
I can do non-sequitirs also:
We gave you multiple years of Indianapolis and New England in the superbowl, and you gave me the worst decade of growth, blah blah blah.
One was not the result of the other. The housing market bust, was not related to tax rates. When tax rates drop and tax revenues increase, why can't you understand the positive of that. When tax rates drop and the top taxpayers bear a higher percent of the burden, why isn't that a good thing?
The tax rate should not have been sold as a boost to the economy, it should only be looked at for the one thing it directly effects. Total tax revenue. Since raising the tax rate on the rich will drop tax revenues going forward if you adjust for regular GDP growth, doesn't it just become punitive and mean-spirited to everyone?
Surely you have evidence for your assertion that dropping taxes for the top 2% increases overall tax revenue. Care to supply it?
| 555 |
robdouth Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:26:32pm |
re: #536 jamesfirecat
I don't see anyone saying anything about making the poor pay more. I said that given everyone wants the rich to pay a higher percentage they might as well be voting for lower tax revenues and the poor paying a higher percentage, because when you let the tax rate rise on the richest those are the two results you will get. It's basic and easy to show, but people would rather get those damn rich (re: working upper class, not actual rich re: wealthy who can just ride it out in tax-free municipal bonds) then actually increase tax revenues.
| 556 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:27:02pm |
re: #546 robdouth
I can do non-sequitirs also:
We gave you multiple years of Indianapolis and New England in the superbowl, and you gave me the worst decade of growth, blah blah blah.
One was not the result of the other. The housing market bust, was not related to tax rates. When tax rates drop and tax revenues increase, why can't you understand the positive of that. When tax rates drop and the top taxpayers bear a higher percent of the burden, why isn't that a good thing?
The tax rate should not have been sold as a boost to the economy, it should only be looked at for the one thing it directly effects. Total tax revenue. Since raising the tax rate on the rich will drop tax revenues going forward if you adjust for regular GDP growth, doesn't it just become punitive and mean-spirited to everyone?
How do you account for the fact that experts have shown Bush's tax cuts didn't even pay for themselves let alone bring in more revenue than was spent?
Also...
[Link: jamesfirecat.deviantart.com...]
| 557 |
b_Snark Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:27:35pm |
re: #555 robdouth
I don't see anyone saying anything about making the poor pay more. I said that given everyone wants the rich to pay a higher percentage they might as well be voting for lower tax revenues and the poor paying a higher percentage, because when you let the tax rate rise on the richest those are the two results you will get. It's basic and easy to show, but people would rather get those damn rich (re: working upper class, not actual rich re: wealthy who can just ride it out in tax-free municipal bonds) then actually increase tax revenues.
Show it.
| 558 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:27:42pm |
re: #458 tradewind
There's something strange about giving tax ' refunds ' to people who pay no income tax at all.
That's one place to start.
Who gets a tax refund who pays no income tax?
| 559 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:28:24pm |
re: #471 WindUpBird
Well sure, because you're paying them, of course you think they're too high
it's a meaningless opinion, it's like saying "My house isn't big enough" or "I'm not beautiful enough"
My taxes are fine.
| 560 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:29:00pm |
re: #558 SanFranciscoZionist
Who gets a tax refund who pays no income tax?
exactly 100 posts later...
| 561 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:29:01pm |
re: #558 SanFranciscoZionist
Who gets a tax refund who pays no income tax?
Earned Income Credit I believe it's called... file for it at the end of year and if you meet the requirements, you get a check for the IRS.
| 562 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:29:31pm |
re: #555 robdouth
I don't see anyone saying anything about making the poor pay more. I said that given everyone wants the rich to pay a higher percentage they might as well be voting for lower tax revenues and the poor paying a higher percentage, because when you let the tax rate rise on the richest those are the two results you will get. It's basic and easy to show, but people would rather get those damn rich (re: working upper class, not actual rich re: wealthy who can just ride it out in tax-free municipal bonds) then actually increase tax revenues.
Explain it to me if it so easy.
How does taxing the rich more mean the poor have to pay more?
Besides if lowering the taxes increases revenues explain this...
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]
Especially number 3
| 563 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:29:52pm |
re: #561 Walter L. Newton
Earned Income Credit I believe it's called... file for it at the end of year and if you meet the requirements, you get a check for the IRS.
I should get one in 2011...
| 564 |
robocopnixon Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:30:05pm |
I gave a lot of money to both Obama and the democratic party in 2008, and based on his spinelessness I won't give him any money or time in 2012.
| 565 |
b_Snark Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:30:17pm |
re: #562 jamesfirecat
Explain it to me if it so easy.
How does taxing the rich more mean the poor have to pay more?
Besides if lowering the taxes increases revenues explain this...
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]
Especially number 3
Did that poster just do a fade?
| 566 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:30:30pm |
re: #556 jamesfirecat
How do you account for the fact that experts have shown Bush's tax cuts didn't even pay for themselves let alone bring in more revenue than was spent?
Also...
[Link: jamesfirecat.deviantart.com...]
This is from an admittedly leftist site, but they are Alabama leftists.
| 567 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:30:44pm |
re: #564 robocopnixon
I gave a lot of money to both Obama and the democratic party in 2008, and based on his spinelessness I won't give him any money or time in 2012.
That'll show him.
| 568 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:30:52pm |
re: #564 robocopnixon
I gave a lot of money to both Obama and the democratic party in 2008, and based on his spinelessness I won't give him any money or time in 2012.
Will he still have your vote?
| 569 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:32:09pm |
re: #560 brookly red
exactly 100 posts later...
Went out for food. Have to meet with crazy parent in an hour. Still ain't seen an answer. Does anyone actually get an income tax refund without paying income tax? And how is it a 'refund' if they pay no income tax?
| 570 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:33:12pm |
| 571 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:33:23pm |
re: #561 Walter L. Newton
Earned Income Credit I believe it's called... file for it at the end of year and if you meet the requirements, you get a check for the IRS.
Do you actually get money back fron the EIC in excess of the money you owed the IRS?
| 572 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:33:52pm |
Reminds me of the wingnuts that want to call any Republican that doesn't vote like a robot, RINOs.
| 573 |
webevintage Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:34:04pm |
re: #561 Walter L. Newton
Earned Income Credit I believe it's called... file for it at the end of year and if you meet the requirements, you get a check for the IRS.
[Link: www.irs.gov...]
| 574 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:34:06pm |
re: #563 brookly red
I should get one in 2011...
Unless your UI total for the year puts you over the EIC limit... I don't know what those figures are... I may actually qualify for that this year... considering my employment situation this year, this will be the smallest amount of money I've made in one year since I got laid off in 2005.
| 575 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:34:47pm |
re: #571 SanFranciscoZionist
Do you actually get money back fron the EIC in excess of the money you owed the IRS?
no, you get money because you didn't owe the IRS...
| 576 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:35:44pm |
re: #571 SanFranciscoZionist
Do you actually get money back fron the EIC in excess of the money you owed the IRS?
The Earned Income Tax Credit or the EITC is a refundable federal income tax credit for low to moderate income working individuals and families. Congress originally approved the tax credit legislation in 1975 in part to offset the burden of social security taxes and to provide an incentive to work. When EITC exceeds the amount of taxes owed, it results in a tax refund to those who claim and qualify for the credit.
To qualify, taxpayers must meet certain requirements and file a tax return, even if they do not have a filing requirement.
| 577 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:36:56pm |
re: #571 SanFranciscoZionist
Do you actually get money back fron the EIC in excess of the money you owed the IRS?
Basic Rules for the Earned Income Tax Credit
To qualify for Earned Income Tax Credit or EITC or simply called EIC, you must have earned income from employment, self-employment or another source and meet certain rules. In addition, you must either meet the additional rules for Workers without a Qualifying Child or have a child that meets all the Qualifying Child Rules for you.
| 579 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:38:04pm |
re: #575 brookly red
no, you get money because you didn't owe the IRS...
So people are not 'getting refunds who pay no income tax', low- and middle-income people are getting a tax credit. That is a bit different.
| 580 |
webevintage Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:38:39pm |
re: #579 SanFranciscoZionist
So people are not 'getting refunds who pay no income tax', low- and middle-income people are getting a tax credit. That is a bit different.
Yep.
| 581 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:39:23pm |
Trade, if you are talking about the EIC, I would recommend looking at it closely before planning to shut it down. It's generally considered to be a very effective anti-poverty program, and has lasted since 1975.
| 582 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:41:27pm |
re: #581 SanFranciscoZionist
Trade, if you are talking about the EIC, I would recommend looking at it closely before planning to shut it down. It's generally considered to be a very effective anti-poverty program, and has lasted since 1975.
A truly effective anti-poverty program would not have lasted since 1975. We have not even begun.
| 583 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:42:34pm |
here is a little ditty I bought into a few years back...
[Link: money.cnn.com...]
yes you read correctly 47,000 % return this year (as per CNN)
it is good to understand money & politics...
| 584 |
blueraven Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:42:50pm |
re: #521 Gus 802
Which is why I noted that there was a cost benefit analysis there. Protection from sun exposure isn't only accomplished by applying sun screen or sun block and forgetting about it. In fact the application of said lotions are still contested as a means of preventing skin cancers. Others have been found to accelerate skin cancer.
I Know, and I appreciate that you pointed that out. My point is that education about protection from the sun can be cost effective, and that should include any lotions that are not helpful or may have other adverse effects.
I just remember back in the 80s before there was such programs many of my GFs laying out in the sun with no protection and in fact using accelerator type oils. I think these types of programs have their benefit. But should not remain in effect forever. They should be phased out or spending reduced as people get the message.
So I agree in part.
| 586 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:44:15pm |
re: #582 Decatur Deb
A truly effective anti-poverty program would not have lasted since 1975. We have not even begun.
Fair enough, but it is not exactly what's draining the coffers, and it keeps a lot of families above the (ridiculously low) poverty line.
| 587 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:45:03pm |
re: #584 blueraven
I Know, and I appreciate that you pointed that out. My point is that education about protection from the sun can be cost effective, and that should include any lotions that are not helpful or may have other adverse effects.
I just remember back in the 80s before there was such programs many of my GFs laying out in the sun with no protection and in fact using accelerator type oils. I think these types of programs have their benefit. But should not remain in effect forever. They should be phased out or spending reduced as people get the message.
So I agree in part.
I got a blistering sun burn twice when I was a kid. Never really checked for melanomas in my life though. I do get some weird things in my back though from time to time which I hope are just back pimples.
| 588 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:46:38pm |
re: #586 SanFranciscoZionist
Fair enough, but it is not exactly what's draining the coffers, and it keeps a lot of families above the (ridiculously low) poverty line.
My goal is to end it, not make it tolerable. Haven't the first clue how, but I know a lot of paths that are BS.
| 589 |
blueraven Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:47:27pm |
re: #587 Gus 802
I got a blistering sun burn twice when I was a kid. Never really checked for melanomas in my life though. I do get some weird things in my back though from time to time which I hope are just back pimples.
Oh me too. One of the worst in my late teens when I fell asleep on the beach. Painful! I learned my lesson after that though and I sure used sunscreen on my kids!
| 590 |
b_Snark Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:55:08pm |
re: #582 Decatur Deb
A truly effective anti-poverty program would not have lasted since 1975. We have not even begun.
That's not true.
A perfect anti-poverty program would not have lasted.
There are many conditions that contribute to poverty, and we invent new ones all the time, so no single program could address all of them.
| 591 |
robdouth Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:57:36pm |
re: #556 jamesfirecat
I'd love the links to your experts. All I can find are political pundits with axes to grind, so I started looking for an article that just showed the magnitude of the increases in revenue after the recession after 9/11 and before the housing bust in 07.
[Link: reason.com...]
If you look at the chart of revenue, you see massive increases in tax revenue between 03-07. People like to look at arbitrary 10 year timelines as if tax rates are the only thing that affect revenue and fail to mention that why the revenue decreased in 2001-2003 had more to due with the recession caused from 9/11 which tax cuts helped pull us out of faster than anyone predicted. Take a look at when the revenues start to go down again. Housing bust, massive unemployment, boom tax revenues drop independent of a tax rate change. Increase taxes though and you may have a one year tax revenue increase related to the increase in rates as the rich scramble in the first year to find tax shelters, but increased rates will drive at least some to put their money in conservative low-tax enterprises like the Kerry's do with Municipal bonds.
The best part of that article shows that it's the non-conservative part of Bush (big spending) that is the problem, and Democrats are not going to slow down on that front. It would be nice if spending was capped at 18% of GDP, but that number is currently over 20% and will continue to grow given the current slate of programs enacted by Obama and the Democrat controlled house as they start coming online over the next 5-10 years.
| 592 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:58:56pm |
re: #591 robdouth
I'd love the links to your experts. All I can find are political pundits with axes to grind, so I started looking for an article that just showed the magnitude of the increases in revenue after the recession after 9/11 and before the housing bust in 07.
[Link: reason.com...]
If you look at the chart of revenue, you see massive increases in tax revenue between 03-07. People like to look at arbitrary 10 year timelines as if tax rates are the only thing that affect revenue and fail to mention that why the revenue decreased in 2001-2003 had more to due with the recession caused from 9/11 which tax cuts helped pull us out of faster than anyone predicted. Take a look at when the revenues start to go down again. Housing bust, massive unemployment, boom tax revenues drop independent of a tax rate change. Increase taxes though and you may have a one year tax revenue increase related to the increase in rates as the rich scramble in the first year to find tax shelters, but increased rates will drive at least some to put their money in conservative low-tax enterprises like the Kerry's do with Municipal bonds.
The best part of that article shows that it's the non-conservative part of Bush (big spending) that is the problem, and Democrats are not going to slow down on that front. It would be nice if spending was capped at 18% of GDP, but that number is currently over 20% and will continue to grow given the current slate of programs enacted by Obama and the Democrat controlled house as they start coming online over the next 5-10 years.
What do you say to the argument that under Bush's tax plan the gap between rich and poor widened and quite honestly that can't be good for America?
| 593 |
robdouth Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:58:58pm |
re: #590 b_sharp
Good point, this program can't go down to the corner and knock the pipe out of a user's hands, so as long as their are ways for people to abuse themselves to the point of ruin, there will be poverty.
| 594 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 7, 2010 4:59:54pm |
re: #593 robdouth
Good point, this program can't go down to the corner and knock the pipe out of a user's hands, so as long as their are ways for people to abuse themselves to the point of ruin, there will be poverty.
Cart--Horse--Cart.
| 595 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 7, 2010 5:03:26pm |
re: #590 b_sharp
That's not true.
A perfect anti-poverty program would not have lasted.
There are many conditions that contribute to poverty, and we invent new ones all the time, so no single program could address all of them.
Our programs have been largely aimed at the immediate consequences of poverty, not at poverty itself. As early as 1957, I heard a speaker describe the developing welfare rules as an accidental but lethal attack on the structure of poor families.
| 596 |
robdouth Tue, Dec 7, 2010 5:05:04pm |
re: #592 jamesfirecat
I don't see why that gap has to mean anything. Why am I worse off if Bill Gates earned another Billion. It's not a zero-sum game. Just because Steve Jobs invented another IPod and put his lead over me to another billion doesn't mean America is worse off. I would say the onus is on the people who constantly spout that tired line to explain why the gap is so bad. Those with money will increase it faster than those without. Even if all you did was put it in a bank account, the interest alone will increase the gap.
When horses are racing and gap increases between the leader and the pack, it's not because the pack is running backwards. If everyone is moving forward, why should I care that the ones in the front are moving forward faster than you and I? I forget what the figure is, but it's something like 75% of those in the bottom 25% of the income bracket are not in that bracket 5 years later. Also similarly some percentage of those in the top 25% fall out of it within five years. They are fluid groupings, but these stats are cited as if there is grinding 30-40 year poverty where someone is stuck in the mud while the rich get richer. That's rarely the case, despite the inevitable anecdotes that can be spawned from the idea.
| 597 |
robdouth Tue, Dec 7, 2010 5:06:24pm |
re: #594 Decatur Deb
Well it's cart's and horses all the way back to the beginning of time. And given there are number of rich people that have ruined themselves by drugs, and those who don't have as many opportunities doing it also, it works on multiple levels.
| 598 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 5:08:52pm |
re: #596 robdouth
I don't see why that gap has to mean anything. Why am I worse off if Bill Gates earned another Billion. It's not a zero-sum game. Just because Steve Jobs invented another IPod and put his lead over me to another billion doesn't mean America is worse off. I would say the onus is on the people who constantly spout that tired line to explain why the gap is so bad. Those with money will increase it faster than those without. Even if all you did was put it in a bank account, the interest alone will increase the gap.
When horses are racing and gap increases between the leader and the pack, it's not because the pack is running backwards. If everyone is moving forward, why should I care that the ones in the front are moving forward faster than you and I? I forget what the figure is, but it's something like 75% of those in the bottom 25% of the income bracket are not in that bracket 5 years later. Also similarly some percentage of those in the top 25% fall out of it within five years. They are fluid groupings, but these stats are cited as if there is grinding 30-40 year poverty where someone is stuck in the mud while the rich get richer. That's rarely the case, despite the inevitable anecdotes that can be spawned from the idea.
Its not just that the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer, it's that the middle class are getting squeezed toward being poor.
The strength of America is its middle class.
By the way, you still haven't explained how increasing taxes on the rich makes the poor pay more instead...
| 599 |
b_Snark Tue, Dec 7, 2010 5:09:17pm |
re: #591 robdouth
I'd love the links to your experts. All I can find are political pundits with axes to grind, so I started looking for an article that just showed the magnitude of the increases in revenue after the recession after 9/11 and before the housing bust in 07.
You're seriously taking the analysis of a non-statistician and your own 'common sense' as reflecting real cause and effect?
| 600 |
b_Snark Tue, Dec 7, 2010 5:13:39pm |
re: #595 Decatur Deb
Our programs have been largely aimed at the immediate consequences of poverty, not at poverty itself. As early as 1957, I heard a speaker describe the developing welfare rules as an accidental but lethal attack on the structure of poor families.
There has to be at least a two pronged attack, deal with immediate needs, and deal with the core issues. Dealing with immediate needs only, can have a positive impact on level simply because it can give opportunities to the poor to get active in their own elevation, but it will do little for systemic improvement.
| 601 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 7, 2010 5:15:02pm |
re: #598 jamesfirecat
I think he cleared that above as a fumbled statement. We spent a big chunk of a Soc. semester looking at American definitions of "middle class". At Habitat, we see procurement of a modest house as a solid bump from "Poor" into the MC. We have created 300 or so of the middle class in our small town. (108 property-tax payers.)
| 602 |
engineer cat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 5:15:13pm |
re: #597 robdouth
Well it's cart's and horses all the way back to the beginning of time. And given there are number of rich people that have ruined themselves by drugs, and those who don't have as many opportunities doing it also, it works on multiple levels.
i think what we are concerned with when we talk about poverty are all the people working as much as they can who still don't earn enough, especially where there are children involved
| 603 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 5:16:02pm |
re: #601 Decatur Deb
I think he cleared that above as a fumbled statement. We spent a big chunk of a Soc. semester looking at American definitions of "middle class". At Habitat, we see procurement of a modest house as a solid bump from "Poor" into the MC. We have created 300 or so of the middle class in our small town. (108 property-tax payers.)
No, he only said that keeping the tax the same isn't the same as raising it.
He hasn't said anything about how taxing the rich ends up increasing the burden on the poor...
And he also said it was very simple to show to!
| 604 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 7, 2010 5:19:12pm |
re: #602 engineer dog
i think what we are concerned with when we talk about poverty are all the people working as much as they can who still don't earn enough, especially where there are children involved
We have also engineered the economy to make a single-earner family a rarity. The bill for that, socially and culturally, hasn't even started to come due.
| 605 |
engineer cat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 5:24:12pm |
re: #604 Decatur Deb
We have also engineered the economy to make a single-earner family a rarity. The bill for that, socially and culturally, hasn't even started to come due.
indeed, this is true
a very important change that deserves to be talked about much more
| 606 |
jc717 Tue, Dec 7, 2010 5:41:38pm |
re: #231 researchok
Are you implying the Brits, Irish, Germans, French, etc., should not curb spending?
I'm implying that austerity measures can backfire and start a downward spiral.
Austerity measures reduce GDP growth and sometimes just prolong the inevitable; all so bondholders don't get a haircut.
Compare Ireland and Iceland. Iceland is now doing much better.
| 607 |
jc717 Tue, Dec 7, 2010 5:47:42pm |
re: #279 Gus 802
Well since you bring that up again. Here's the gig. Portugal, Ireland and Spain have been taxing their citizens through the roof for decades now. They're broke because they spent too much over the years and they can no longer afford to squeeze anymore money from their citizens. That's what happens when you reach your limit on taxation and continue to spend like a drunken sailor.
Say WHAT?
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Ireland has lower rates of taxation than the US.
Spain is barely higher.
Germany is actually doing REALLY well; well enough to bail out most of the other countries and they have a much higher rate of taxation, longer vacations, health care, etc. But don't let facts get in the way of your supply side mentality.
| 608 |
simoom Tue, Dec 7, 2010 5:54:10pm |
Did anyone catch that FNC Whitehouse Correspondent on O'Reilly who was trashing the President's press conference (on the tax deal) from this morning? His craziest talking point was that all Americans should be concerned that Obama was signalling to terrorists around the world that he's willing to negotiate with hostage takers. This was said with a dead serious tone and a totally straight face.
| 609 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 5:56:39pm |
re: #607 jc717
Say WHAT?
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Ireland has lower rates of taxation than the US.
Spain is barely higher.
Germany is actually doing REALLY well; well enough to bail out most of the other countries and they have a much higher rate of taxation, longer vacations, health care, etc. But don't let facts get in the way of your supply side mentality.
Ooo! Supply side mentality! Bad word! Is that why you link to a totally materialist website?
So. Does that include VAT?
| 610 |
Stanghazi Tue, Dec 7, 2010 5:57:09pm |
re: #608 simoom
Did anyone catch that FNC Whitehouse Correspondent on O'Reilly who was trashing the President's press conference (on the tax deal) from this morning? His craziest talking point was that all Americans should be concerned that Obama was signalling to terrorists around the world that he's willing to negotiate with hostage takers. This was said with a dead serious tone and a totally straight face.
Idjits paid to rile up the fearful.
Gah
| 611 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 7, 2010 5:57:23pm |
re: #608 simoom
Did anyone catch that FNC Whitehouse Correspondent on O'Reilly who was trashing the President's press conference (on the tax deal) from this morning? His craziest talking point was that all Americans should be concerned that Obama was signalling to terrorists around the world that he's willing to negotiate with hostage takers. This was said with a dead serious tone and a totally straight face.
Don't you realize that the entire Fox organization is a snarky mock-conservative sendup like the Colbert show? They just stay in character 24/7.
| 612 |
jc717 Tue, Dec 7, 2010 6:08:12pm |
re: #609 Gus 802
Ooo! Supply side mentality! Bad word! Is that why you link to a totally materialist website?
So. Does that include VAT?
Yes it does.
I have no problem with materialism or consumerism. I like to live in the real world, not an ideological one.
I have not seen a single objective study that shows the effectiveness of supply side ideas, and I have looked. Serious economists give it as much credence as biologists give creationism or climatologists give climate deniers.
| 613 |
sagehen Tue, Dec 7, 2010 6:13:37pm |
re: #574 Walter L. Newton
Unless your UI total for the year puts you over the EIC limit... I don't know what those figures are... I may actually qualify for that this year... considering my employment situation this year, this will be the smallest amount of money I've made in one year since I got laid off in 2005.
I'm pretty sure the Earned Income Credit is only for people who earned income; not people whose low income is from benefits or dividends or something other than a job. :(
The point is to make it worthwhile to get off benefits and take a minimum wage job, even if commuting and childcare and FICA eats up so much of the earnings it seems pointless.
| 614 |
sagehen Tue, Dec 7, 2010 6:15:37pm |
re: #581 SanFranciscoZionist
Trade, if you are talking about the EIC, I would recommend looking at it closely before planning to shut it down. It's generally considered to be a very effective anti-poverty program, and has lasted since 1975.
It's also a very Republican program -- started by Ford, expanded by Reagan, expanded again by Bush.
| 615 |
lazardo Tue, Dec 7, 2010 6:51:13pm |
re: #607 jc717
Say WHAT?
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Ireland has lower rates of taxation than the US.
Spain is barely higher.
Germany is actually doing REALLY well; well enough to bail out most of the other countries and they have a much higher rate of taxation, longer vacations, health care, etc. But don't let facts get in the way of your supply side mentality.
Germany has the Private Option in terms of health care, IIRC.
| 616 |
tradewind Tue, Dec 7, 2010 6:57:23pm |
re: #608 simoom
Actually, you're missing the point here. I couldn't believe my ears when I heard POTUS say in effect ( off-prompter, and haltingly... he should have thought of another example) that ' Not negotiating with hostage takers sounds good until something happens to one of the hostages '. Think about it: that makes absolutely no sense. It's like saying ' you can't have a policy of non-negotiation with hostage takers because something might happen to a hostage! '
If you have an unsophisticated nation that operates thuggishly, it's a small stretch for them to believe and interpret this as ' Oh wait, America will always negotiate if we threaten a hostage '.
Nuance.
| 617 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 7:03:21pm |
re: #616 tradewind
Actually, you're missing the point here. I couldn't believe my ears when I heard POTUS say in effect ( off-prompter, and haltingly... he should have thought of another example) that ' Not negotiating with hostage takers sounds good until something happens to one of the hostages '. Think about it: that makes absolutely no sense. It's like saying ' you can't have a policy of non-negotiation with hostage takers because something might happen to a hostage! '
If you have an unsophisticated nation that operates thuggishly, it's a small stretch for them to believe and interpret this as ' Oh wait, America will always negotiate if we threaten a hostage '.
Nuance.
////Classy the way you brought up the teleprompter there Tradewind...
[Link: jamesfirecat.deviantart.com...]
| 618 |
Gus Tue, Dec 7, 2010 7:07:22pm |
re: #612 jc717
Yes it does.
I have no problem with materialism or consumerism. I like to live in the real world, not an ideological one.
I have not seen a single objective study that shows the effectiveness of supply side ideas, and I have looked. Serious economists give it as much credence as biologists give creationism or climatologists give climate deniers.
Whatever.
| 619 |
thecommodore Tue, Dec 7, 2010 7:56:40pm |
I think right now, this deal is the best that can be accomplished. I wish Obama and the Democrats had fought harder and sooner for letter the Bush tax rates for the wealthy expire, making their primary argument the deficit, but the past is the past and right now, it makes no sense to dig in and fight for things that cannot be won. The fact is, letting the Bush tax rates for the wealthy expire will die in the Senate. There is no getting around that. Furthermore, letting all the Bush tax rates expire and having everyone's taxes go up was simply not tenable.
As much as a massive 3% tax increase on the wealthy is needed as a small step towards restoring fiscal sanity (please note my sarcasm on the word "massive") giving the GOP what they wanted on that score made them cave on extending desperately needed unemployment insurance. Plus some tax breaks were included which will help small businesses. I don't like dropping the payroll tax because that will hurt Social Security in the long run, but all in all, this really isn't that bad of a deal. It could have been better, but in today's political climate, it's pretty good if you think about.
And if Obama can keep playing this sort of soft hardball with the sanity challenged GOP, I think it will go a long way towards marginalizing them before they realize what's happened. This kind of thing is really Obama's strong suit. He is clearly the adult in all of this, and in the long run, this will help him in 2012, and as far as I'm concerned, for as much as he's been frustrating at time, we desperately need him in the White House.
| 620 |
simoom Tue, Dec 7, 2010 8:21:09pm |
re: #616 tradewind
Actually, you're missing the point here.
No, I immediately understood the correspondent's pretzel-twisted logic; that some abstract rhetoric about tax legislation would inform terrorists about our hostage negotiation policies. Silly me, but for some reason I'd think real world evidence, for example the outcome of the Somali pirate standoff, would factor foremost in terrorists' minds... that is if they're not too busy cowering from the relentless drone strikes to give it much thought.
| 621 |
prairiefire Tue, Dec 7, 2010 8:47:11pm |
re: #616 tradewind
Actually, you're missing the point here. I couldn't believe my ears when I heard POTUS say in effect ( off-prompter, and haltingly... he should have thought of another example) that ' Not negotiating with hostage takers sounds good until something happens to one of the hostages '. Think about it: that makes absolutely no sense. It's like saying ' you can't have a policy of non-negotiation with hostage takers because something might happen to a hostage! '
If you have an unsophisticated nation that operates thuggishly, it's a small stretch for them to believe and interpret this as ' Oh wait, America will always negotiate if we threaten a hostage '.
Nuance.
Trained, professional law enforcement individuals always "negotiate" with hostage takers. It is called "communication".
| 622 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 7, 2010 8:56:15pm |
re: #621 prairiefire
Trained, professional law enforcement individuals always "negotiate" with hostage takers. It is called "communication".
BUT THAT DOESN'T KICK ASS AMERICAN EAGLE STARS AND BARS GUNS AND AMMO
| 623 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 7, 2010 9:00:35pm |
re: #123 tradewind
negative 18, well done, that must be a record
| 624 |
deranged cat Tue, Dec 7, 2010 9:33:34pm |
i like this charles! do more! itd be interesting to see how LGF thinks!
interesting to see the 3rd question. i personally think it's good, though i say that begrudgingly (maybe add a 4th question with the word "begrudgingly"). i like that he made a new stimulus and i support his view that we need to get work done and not keep playing stupid games with the republicans.
| 625 |
garhighway Wed, Dec 8, 2010 5:00:34am |
re: #439 tradewind
You had me at ' Esquire Magazine's Commission to Balance the Budget ', but when I saw it was written in part by Lawrence O' Donnell of MSNBC, I really swooned.//
Did you see the four Senators involved?
| 626 |
prairiefire Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:01:39am |
re: #623 WindUpBird
negative 18, well done, that must be a record
I think I've seen it reach -25 for her before.
| 627 |
MinisterO Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:31:48am |
I was against this compromise before I was for it. The payroll tax cut is beautiful - a 2% tax cut on ALL income up to about 105k, with NO benefit at all for those earning more than about 160k.
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