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Robert Stacy McCain on Date Rape: ‘You Buy the Ticket, You Take the Ride’

Wingnuts • Views: 25,255

Racist neo-Confederate cretin Robert Stacy McCain finally said something misogynistic and ugly enough for even the right wing blogs to notice: Right-Wing Blogger on Date Rape: ‘You Buy the Ticket, You Take the Ride’.

Robert Stacy McCainPopular right-wing blogger Robert Stacy McCain (The Other McCain) has used an examination of Julian Assange’s sexual assault allegations as a springboard to a jaw-dropping assessment of the right of a woman to withdraw consent for sex. Feministe blogger Jill Filipovic makes the point that, whatever their veracity, allegations against Assange are not confined to failure to use a condom, and explains that “no” means “no” even after you’ve closed escrow.

RS McCain thinks this is “unadulterated nonsense,” and provides this handy warning to all of his future dates: “You buy the ticket, you take the ride.”

McCain will now write 1500 words trying to baffle the rubes with BS, and only end up further justifying his creepy little date rape fantasy and being even more offensive.

Oh wait - he already did.

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301 comments

1 McSpiff  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:22:20am

Well that's real creepy.

2 Mocking Jay  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:22:50am

O.O

3 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:23:09am

If your sex life is in any way analogous to an amusement park, you're doing it wrong.

4 tradewind  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:23:57am

Creepy, yes, but here's a thought: Would you trust a condom used by someone who ran a business called ' Wikileaks '?//

5 SpaceJesus  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:25:11am

Wonder if his analysis would change if Julian was anything but white. oh wait, I don't have to wonder at all.

6 tradewind  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:25:12am

re: #3 Obdicut
Don't knock the Tilt-a -Whirl without trying it.//

7 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:25:24am

re: #3 Obdicut

If your sex life is in any way analogous to an amusement park, you're doing it wrong.

Depends on the ride.

8 MisterCookie  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:25:44am

re: #3 Obdicut

If your sex life is in any way analogous to an amusement park, you're doing it wrong.

If I had to bed RSM, I'd think I'd be vomiting afterwards to.

9 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:25:56am

Well that's just lovely.

Can't wait till he springboards from this to how every time you go outside you know things could go wrong so in essence you "buy the ticket" and then of course once you've "bought the ticket" you also have to carry any child that develops to term....

10 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:28:14am

Funny how it all being the victim's fault is their standard line until someone criticizes one of their positions and then it's the evil lamestream media or the left picking on them.

See Palin, Sarah

11 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:28:20am

He thinks he is hotter than Rhett, but really he is Suellen.

12 Lidane  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:28:29am

How very Clayton Williams of him.

Asshole.

13 SpaceJesus  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:28:48am

re: #3 Obdicut


it's a small world after all is i guess how i'd describe mine over the past 2 years

14 Mocking Jay  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:29:35am

Seriously, what he said sounds like a line from a cheezy 70's porn flick.

15 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:29:39am

re: #13 SpaceJesus

So, racially, you're pretty cool?


Image: 4031009011_7da2a82b23_o.png

16 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:30:13am

re: #13 SpaceJesus

it's a small world after all is i guess how i'd describe mine over the past 2 years

Sex is like banking, there's a severe interest penalty for early withdrawal.

17 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:30:46am

McCain will now write 1500 words trying to explain, and only end up further justifying his creepy little date rape fantasy, and being even more offensive.

Oh wait - he already did. Complete with a quote from Hunter S. Thompson.

18 uncah91  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:31:24am

Just gross

19 SpaceJesus  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:33:24am

"And if she says, “Slower, and a little to the right,” you’d better comply instantly, buddy, or you can expect to find yourself in court explaining to a jury why you didn’t provide her with exactly the sort of sexual experience to which she consented."


what

20 Lidane  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:34:24am

re: #17 Charles

The real Hunter S. Thompson would have hated RSM and everything he stood for, especially since he was also from the South. It's almost insulting for that racist little shit to quote HST like that, especially since it's blatantly out of context. =P

21 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:35:25am

re: #17 Charles


All of his blather is based on the completely false idea that rape is only something that occurs between a man and a woman, too.

Like a man couldn't say 'stop' to a woman. Or to another man. Etc.

This guy lives in a weird, weird world.

22 The Left  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:35:26am

I'm going to put together a page on the misogynistic wit and wisdom of RS McCain at some point.

This is hardly an isolated incident in the life of everyone's favourite Son of a Confederate Treason-in-Defense-of-Slavery Veteran.

23 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:36:18am

re: #20 Lidane

The real Hunter S. Thompson would have hated RSM and everything he stood for, especially since he was also from the South. It's almost insulting for that racist little shit to quote HST like that, especially since it's blatantly out of context. =P

It's just one of the creepy things McCain does - he cloaks himself in the aura of Hunter S. Thompson, when he certainly knows that Thompson would have despised everything about him. And he gets away with it because Thompson is dead and can't tell him to knock it off or face immediate destruction.

24 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:36:36am

re: #3 Obdicut

If your sex life is in any way analogous to an amusement park, you're doing it wrong.

As you get older, hopefully your wife and you won't think your looking into those funny mirrors when you get undressed in front of each other!!

OUCH ,, hey honey ,, how long have you been standing behind me!?!?!!!

25 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:36:40am

re: #22 iceweasel

Great discussion on a very similar topic last night!

26 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:37:33am

re: #22 iceweasel

I'm going to put together a page on the misogynistic wit and wisdom of RS McCain at some point.

This is hardly an isolated incident in the life of everyone's favourite Son of a Confederate Treason-in-Defense-of-Slavery Veteran.

You must have OODLES of time on your hand for an undertaking of that magnitude!

27 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:37:52am

I especially like his little bit about how he can't possibly be pro-rape, since he's opposed to pre-marital heavy petting.

"Gosh! I'm so sexually traditional that I could never possibly be accused of trivializing sex crimes against women who give it away!"

I'm not at all convinced of how serious this thing Assange is accused of actually is, however the last thing we need is an RSM being coy and smug about date rape.

28 The Left  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:39:47am

re: #26 sattv4u2

You must have OODLES of time on your hand for an undertaking of that magnitude!

Heh. That's why it hasn't happened yet.
He's written loads of crap about Amanda Marcotte at pandagon and more. This guy is such a freak show.

29 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:40:58am

Under my thumb
The squirmin' dog who's just had her day
Under my thumb
A girl who has just changed her ways

It's down to me.

30 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:43:37am

re: #28 iceweasel

Heh. That's why it hasn't happened yet.
He's written loads of crap about Amanda Marcotte at pandagon and more. This guy is such a freak show.

Thats an insult to freak shows
When I was a kid (lo those many decades ago) I would pay a nickle to see a "freak show" at fairs

I wouldn't give a warm (or cold) bucket of piss to see this ass ((although ,, throwing it at him may be worth the price of admission!!)

31 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:45:17am

re: #24 sattv4u2

As you get older, hopefully your wife and you won't think your looking into those funny mirrors when you get undressed in front of each other!!

OUCH ,, hey honey ,, how long have you been standing behind me!?!?!!!

I keep trying to come up with witty rejoinders, but I just can't get past describing one's partner as a "ride". That to me is the most dehumanizing part of all.

32 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:46:19am

re: #23 Charles

It's just one of the creepy things McCain does - he cloaks himself in the aura of Hunter S. Thompson, when he certainly knows that Thompson would have despised everything about him. And he gets away with it because Thompson is dead and can't tell him to knock it off or face immediate destruction.

See the GOP and Reagan.....

(Well maybe a bit less but I feel the point is still valid...)

33 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:46:38am

HST would have shot RSM in the face, and made a game of it.

Unbelievable. It's like the KKK claiming MLK as a martyr for their cause or something.

34 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:48:01am

re: #31 PT Barnum

I keep trying to come up with witty rejoinders, but I just can't get past describing one's partner as a "ride". That to me is the most dehumanizing part of all.

All here are in agreement on that
All here are in agreement re: McCain

35 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:48:22am

re: #3 Obdicut

If your sex life is in any way analogous to an amusement park, you're doing it wrong.

"You must be this tall..."

Oh nevermind.

36 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:48:38am

re: #31 PT Barnum

I keep trying to come up with witty rejoinders, but I just can't get past describing one's partner as a "ride". That to me is the most dehumanizing part of all.

Stacy thinks he is the ride.

37 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:50:57am

re: #27 SanFranciscoZionist

I especially like his little bit about how he can't possibly be pro-rape, since he's opposed to pre-marital heavy petting.

"Gosh! I'm so sexually traditional that I could never possibly be accused of trivializing sex crimes against women who give it away!"


During the Spanish Civil War, Nationalist general Gonzalo Queipo de Llano made this statement to justify the rapes committed by his troops:

Our brave Legionaries and Regulares (Morroccan troops-SK) have shown the red cowards what it means to be a man. And, incidentally the wives of reds too. These Communist and Anarchist women, after all, have made themselves fair game by their doctrine of free love. And now they have at least the acquaintance of real men, and not milksops of militiamen. Kicking their legs about and struggling won't save them. (emphasis added)


This kind of thinking appears to have persisted on the far right.

38 The Left  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:51:33am

re: #31 PT Barnum

I keep trying to come up with witty rejoinders, but I just can't get past describing one's partner as a "ride". That to me is the most dehumanizing part of all.

Oh boy. The Stacy McCain Experience. No long lines, no waiting.

39 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:51:46am

His analogy would imply that consent is like a season pass. It's not. It's more like a ticket to a single ball game. You get in the door, but if you act like an asshole, they can toss you out before you see the end of the game.

40 Mocking Jay  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:54:02am

RSM gives Neo-Confederate seccessionists a bad name...

41 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:54:05am

re: #38 iceweasel

Oh boy. The Stacy McCain Experience. No long lines, no waiting.

And he pays you. You forgot that part. In otherwords, he's a buysexual

42 funky chicken  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:54:23am

Oh, c'mon. Ol' Stacy's just being politically incorrect, and telling the real truth, just like he did when he said slaves were happy before the Civil War. There's no need to refudiate a guy who's been such a great friend of the conservative movement. After all, the only people who will be offended are feminazis and Charles.

////

43 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:55:08am

Wow...just wow.

44 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:56:00am

re: #42 funky chicken

... and anyone who has a vagina, or who genuinely cares about anyone who has a vagina. So, yeah, that's some offensive shit.

45 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:56:09am

Hmmm. McCain probably thinks he is this ride:

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

I'll bet he's more like this ride:

[Link: www.swamusements.com...]

46 Mocking Jay  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:56:21am

Michele Bachmann & Allies: Obama Doesn't Say 'God' Enough

Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.) and her colleagues on the Congressional Prayer Caucus penned a letter to President Obama Monday, attacking him for his alleged failure to the use the word "God" and "Creator" more in his public speeches, especially abroad.

sigh

47 Kragar  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:57:04am
48 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:57:50am

re: #45 EmmmieG

Nah, this:

Image: eryjseghasgsd.jpg

49 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:58:03am

re: #39 Fozzie Bear

Sports/baseball rules indeed. Run across the field, booze up, use offensive language, and get in fights, and you're tossed from the ballpark.

50 The Left  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:58:55am

re: #46 JasonA

Michele Bachmann & Allies: Obama Doesn't Say 'God' Enough

sigh

hey! Presnarked here for your approval.

51 elizajane  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:59:26am

re: #46 JasonA

Michele Bachmann & Allies: Obama Doesn't Say 'God' Enough

sigh

Given her general idiocy and potential to cause actual harm as an elected member of Congress, we should probably be thankful that she devotes her time to incredibly trivial and largely imaginary issues.

52 researchok  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:03:01pm

re: #50 iceweasel

hey! Presnarked here for your approval.

OT, see this.

I thought of you when I posted it.

You'll be pretty steamed.

If I'm quoting Mother Jones...

53 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:03:32pm

re: #46 JasonA

Michele Bachmann & Allies: Obama Doesn't Say 'God' Enough

sigh

Did you hear that they bitched and moaned at him for saying "E Pluribus Unum" was our state motto instead of "In God We Trust" yes the later is our current state motto but it only became that way because we needed to fight the "godless" commies in the 50's.

Which sums up a better picture of America? The idea that many different elements can be forged into one united hole... or people desperately hoping that someone else will come along and make all their problems go away?

///Don't answer that.....

54 The Left  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:03:39pm

Jill at Feministe's response is worth posting in full, for those who haven't read it: (at the link above)

I’m not sure what RS McCain thinks rape actually is, other than punishment for women who are slutty enough to leave the house and talk to men. He says in his post that if “you buy the ticket, you take the ride,” which I guess means that if you go on a date with someone or kiss someone or have any sexual interaction at all with someone and they end up forcing you into sex, it’s your fault and you aren’t a victim “of anything except your own stupidity.” McCain’s position seems to be that women who have sex should either expect to be raped or, alternately, can’t be raped — he calls “promiscuous” women “not-so-innocent bystanders” in their own assaults (and promiscuity is defined as doing anything other than hand-holding, as he’s against “heavy petting” before marriage and kissing on first dates).

This isn’t really new material. “She was asking for it because she went out with him / wore a short skirt / flirted / had sex with him before / went to that party / kissed him / etc” is such an antiquated and tired justification for rape that I’m almost more offended by the lack of creativity and hoariness of it than I am by the actual content (almost). Although I will say that ”Listen up, sweetheart: You buy the ticket, you take the ride” is new and interesting phrasing from someone who also says he isn’t a misogynist rape apologist.

Disturbing and wrong-headed as his articles are, I can’t take him all that seriously — his ideas about sexual assault and women’s rights seem to be about as rational and modern as his thoughts on race (See: Slavery wasn’t wrong, interracial marriage is repulsive). Usually my modus operandi for white supremacist He-Man Woman-Haters on the internet is “close tab”; it’s really a shame that RS McCain is embraced by the right-wing blogosphere and that his writing is widely featured on some of the most heavily-trafficked conservative websites, so I can’t ignore his “sluts were asking for it” mutterings quite as easily as I’d like.

BBL

55 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:03:56pm

re: #48 Obdicut

Not only creepy, but dirty and disfunctional.

56 Mocking Jay  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:04:12pm

re: #53 jamesfirecat

Did you hear that they bitched and moaned at him for saying "E Pluribus Unum" was our state motto instead of "In God We Trust" yes the later is our current state motto but it only became that way because we needed to fight the "godless" commies in the 50's.

Which sums up a better picture of America? The idea that many different elements can be forged into one united hole... or people desperately hoping that someone else will come along and make all their problems go away?

///Don't answer that...

I dunno, man. That first one sounds like something a Commie would say...

57 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:04:30pm

I can't believe RSM said that. I mean it's not like I expected much from him, but doesn't he have a mom, or a sister, or a single female friend?

What an incredible hateful piece of shit. It's one thing to question the veracity of the charges against Assange, and there is some grounds to do so, but WTF led this guy to the conclusion that the only rhetorical approach to this issue is to attack the concept of consent itself?

He basically just said "if you go on a date with me, i'm fucking you whether you like it or not". People like that don't deserve to be equipped to pee standing up, as clearly, they can't handle the responsibility.

58 AK-47%  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:05:09pm

Yunno, there was this odd old custom, practiced well into the second half of the XXth century in isolated parts of Rural America, known as "courtship".

Part of it involved giving the man a chance to demonstrate that he was a gentleman and would act in accordance with a woman's wishes before engaging in physical intimacy.

I am not advocating a return to petticoats and chaperones, nor am I family values/abstinence only moralist. I just see what sort of idiotic situations (and even more asinine discussions) arise when we toss these practices to the wind.

59 RogueOne  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:05:40pm

re: #55 EmmmieG

Not only creepy, but dirty and disfunctional.

I was confused for a second. I thought you were talking about someones sex life not the pic.

60 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:06:00pm

re: #58 ralphieboy

Rape was common back in the time of petticoats and chaperones, too, though.

61 JeffM70  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:06:02pm

It amazes me that this guy thinks what he says makes any kind of sense.

62 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:07:03pm

re: #60 Obdicut

Rape was common back in the time of petticoats and chaperones, too, though.

///yes my dear chap but that then ladies had the good grace to simply lie back and think of England rather than making a fuss....

(Too mean/horrible?)

63 researchok  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:07:27pm

re: #57 Fozzie Bear

I can't believe RSM said that. I mean it's not like I expected much from him, but doesn't he have a mom, or a sister, or a single female friend?

What an incredible hateful piece of shit. It's one thing to question the veracity of the charges against Assange, and there is some grounds to do so, but WTF led this guy to the conclusion that the only rhetorical approach to this issue is to attack the concept of consent itself?

He basically just said "if you go on a date with me, i'm fucking you whether you like it or not". People like that don't deserve to be equipped to pee standing up, as clearly, they can't handle the responsibility.

You're assuming too much.

RSM is an unrepentant racist idiot. No more, no less.

64 The Left  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:07:48pm

re: #52 researchok

OT, see this.

I thought of you when I posted it.

You'll be pretty steamed.

If I'm quoting Mother Jones...

Hey, good to see you! left you a comment there-- thanks for posting. Have to run now but will respond more later, i promise.

have a great night everyone!

65 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:07:58pm

re: #58 ralphieboy

Yunno, there was this odd old custom, practiced well into the second half of the XXth century in isolated parts of Rural America, known as "courtship".

It wasn't limited to Rural America, nor ended during the second half of the XXth century.
26+ years ago when I was 1st 'dating" my wife, her mother stated (frequently) that I was "courting" her daughter by the way we were proceeding

66 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:08:04pm

re: #46 JasonA

Michele Bachmann & Allies: Obama Doesn't Say 'God' Enough

sigh

Seriously, what an assine criticism.

67 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:08:34pm

re: #58 ralphieboy

This has nothing to do with courtship. If people want to be sluts, that's their thing. But they still get to say yay/nay at each and every individual encounter, even if they do give it up at the drop of a hat. It's still theirs to give up.

I just don't think this has anything to do with courtship, per se, though I agree with you larger point that the best relationships tend to come from friendships first, which is in a roundabout way what courtship is all about.

68 AK-47%  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:09:22pm

re: #60 Obdicut

Rape was common back in the time of petticoats and chaperones, too, though.


Yes, but the issue was a lot more clear-cut - "date rape" is a fairly modern invention.

I was referring more to the idiotic discussions of what constitutes "consent" and withdrawl thereof.

69 RogueOne  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:09:33pm

re: #62 jamesfirecat

///yes my dear chap but that then ladies had the good grace to simply lie back and think of England rather than making a fuss...

(Too mean/horrible?)

70 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:10:07pm

re: #68 ralphieboy

Yes, but the issue was a lot more clear-cut - "date rape" is a fairly modern invention

No ,, it's just a "modern term" to an age old problem

71 S'latch  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:10:12pm

So, Julian Assange and Robert Stacy McCain have at least one thing in common: extreme creepiness.

72 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:10:34pm

Remember this?
Meet Robert Stacy McCain, Neo-Confederate Wacko Extraordinaire (LGF 10-19-09)

Here’s Robert Stacy McCain in a humorous mood, dreaming up some hilarious Bumper Stickers:

RStacy2229
May 21 1996, 12:00 am

I’d rather be wenching in the quarters

or

Have you whipped your slaves today?

73 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:11:25pm

re: #71 Lawrence Schmerel

So, Julian Assange and Robert Stacy McCain have at least one thing in common: extreme creepiness.

Someday, maybe they'll have a second thing in common
A prisoner number on their state issued uni's!

74 funky chicken  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:11:56pm

re: #61 JeffM70

It amazes me that this guy thinks what he says makes any kind of sense.

Not me. I am amazed that so many seemingly normal other people think his writings make any kind of sense.

75 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:16:04pm

Irony here is that the woman who told police that Assange had withdrawn-consent unprotected sex with her actually paid for Assange's train tickets - both to and from her place.

76 AK-47%  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:16:08pm

re: #70 sattv4u2


I remember reading a magazine article in the late 80's about a young college freshmen who went to a campus party, left with a stranger, found herself alone with him in a dorm room and was raped.

No, I do not think that she "deserved" it or was "asking for it", but I had to ask, why did this woman think that she could put herself in such a potnetially compromising position without being aware of the risks?

The quaint and odd customs of interactions between the sexes arose as a response to such situations over the course of history. And though I do not advocate returning to the days of chaperones and petticoats, those people who put themselves in potentially compromising situations should be aware of what they are getting themselves in for.

77 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:16:50pm

re: #72 Shiplord Kirel

Remember this?
Meet Robert Stacy McCain, Neo-Confederate Wacko Extraordinaire (LGF 10-19-09)

Stacy McCain was walking along the beach when he found a magic lamp washed up on the sand. He rubbed it and lo! a genie appeared and said "I have come to grant you three wishes!"

Eagerly, Stacy said, "I want you to send me back in time to 1860!"
"I can do that," said the genie.
"And I want to live on a big plantation!"
"You're there!" cried the genie.
"And I want the South to win!"
"Done!" said the genie, and he snapped his fingers. Stacy felt the clothes he was wearing turn to coarse canvas, the shoes on his feet disappeared, and he felt the overseer's lash on his back.
"Hey wait!" he yelled at the departing genie.
"I gave you three wishes sucka! I didn't hear you say you wanted to be the master."

78 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:17:15pm

re: #76 ralphieboy

You answered your own question

college freshmen

79 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:17:25pm

re: #71 Lawrence Schmerel

So, Julian Assange and Robert Stacy McCain have at least one thing in common: extreme creepiness.

Political differences not withstanding, McCain probably senses a kindred soul at some level. Perhaps it's a sign of the end: All the creeps, freaks, and weirdos coalescing into a single, hellish Grand Unified Confederacy of Perverts.

Maybe Col. Bat Guano was right after all.

80 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:18:00pm

re: #58 ralphieboy

Yunno, there was this odd old custom, practiced well into the second half of the XXth century in isolated parts of Rural America, known as "courtship".

Part of it involved giving the man a chance to demonstrate that he was a gentleman and would act in accordance with a woman's wishes before engaging in physical intimacy.

I am not advocating a return to petticoats and chaperones, nor am I family values/abstinence only moralist. I just see what sort of idiotic situations (and even more asinine discussions) arise when we toss these practices to the wind.

Of course, there was also 'bundling'.

81 JeffM70  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:18:16pm

re: #74 funky chicken

Not me. I am amazed that so many seemingly normal other people think his writings make any kind of sense.

There's that, too. But these thoughts originate in this guy's head, and he thinks highly enough of them to type them out and publish them. I think his internal censor was buried along with Hunter S. Thompson.

82 AK-47%  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:18:43pm

re: #78 sattv4u2

You answered your own question

college freshmen

Yes, the article went on to say that she has led a sheltered life and had no idea about what was going on. All the more reason to act cautiously and prudently.

83 AK-47%  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:19:32pm

re: #80 SanFranciscoZionist

Of course, there was also 'bundling'.


Yes, and the most sought-after "bundling boards" were the ones with a large knothole just below waist level...

84 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:19:54pm

re: #82 ralphieboy

Given that most rapes are by friends and family members, women should actually be more careful of them than strangers.

I really have no fucking clue what you're getting at here.

85 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:20:50pm

re: #68 ralphieboy

Yes, but the issue was a lot more clear-cut - "date rape" is a fairly modern invention.

I was referring more to the idiotic discussions of what constitutes "consent" and withdrawl thereof.

Date rape has been common as hell since there was dating. And it was not at all 'clear cut', especially in the days when they could still bring up the victim's past sex life in court.

86 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:21:00pm

re: #68 ralphieboy

Yes, but the issue was a lot more clear-cut - "date rape" is a fairly modern invention.

No, it wasn't. Criminalizing date rape is a modern invention. Date rape happened all the time back in ye olden days.

Why do you think it didn't?

87 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:21:47pm

re: #86 Obdicut

No, it wasn't. Criminalizing date rape is a modern invention. Date rape happened all the time back in ye olden days.

Why do you think it didn't?

Hence
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

88 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:22:17pm

RSM, you sick piece of shit.

89 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:22:29pm

What right wing racism?
Challenger to Steele Has Racist Ties

Bristow also made it a point to bring many far-right speakers to campus and endorsing racist activities, including sponsoring Holocaust denier Nick Griffin, leader of the whites-only British National Party and hosting a "Koran Desecration" competition.

Despite Bristow's open racism, Anuzis has unequivocally supported Bristow in public, calling him "exactly the type of young kid we want out there."

On the one hand, I suppose Anuzis represents an element of honesty that is emerging within the GOP--an open embrace of the far-right players and policies that are trying to drive the national platform. However, it is more than a little disturbing to see such racism mainstreamed within the Republican party and accepted by most media outlets.

90 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:22:30pm

I have a question - back when McCain hit up his readers for "travel costs" to go down south and "investigate" the death of a census worker, didn't McCain hit on and strike out with a goth Southern Belle who turned out to be a lesbian?

I ask because, had he not stuck out, would not his readers been entitled to the flesh feast instead of him since "they bought the ticket" and should therefore "ride?"

I am so confused.

91 AK-47%  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:23:17pm

re: #84 Obdicut

Given that most rapes are by friends and family members, women should actually be more careful of them than strangers.

I really have no fucking clue what you're getting at here.


I am mostly talking about these asinie discussion about what constitutes "consent" and/or the withdrawl thereof, which is the core of the case we are discussing in this thread and the basis of what has come to be popularly called "date rape".

92 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:23:39pm

re: #88 Varek Raith

RSM, you sick piece of shit.

Thats an insult to every sick piece of shit out there !!

93 McSpiff  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:24:33pm

re: #91 ralphieboy

I am mostly talking about these asinie discussion about what constitutes "consent" and/or the withdrawl thereof, which is the core of the case we are discussing in this thread and the basis of what has come to be popularly called "date rape".

If women weren't having sex so much it would be easier to tell what is and isn't rape?

94 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:24:47pm

re: #92 sattv4u2

Thats an insult to every sick piece of shit out there !!

I apologize to shit.
Or some shit.
Shit, I don't know shit.

95 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:25:13pm

re: #91 ralphieboy

I am mostly talking about these asinie discussion about what constitutes "consent" and/or the withdrawl thereof, which is the core of the case we are discussing in this thread and the basis of what has come to be popularly called "date rape".

Consent ,,, YES

Withdrawel of consent,, NO

NO always trumps a YES,, ALWAYS,, no matter the order they were stated, no matter the circumstances
ALWAYS !

Clear now!?!?!

96 McSpiff  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:27:06pm

re: #95 sattv4u2

Consent ,,, YES

Withdrawel of consent,, NO

NO always trumps a YES,, ALWAYS,, no matter the order they were stated, no matter the circumstances
ALWAYS !

Clear now!?!?!

"Should I stop?", "NO!"...what now smart guy?

//Can't believe i just made that joke...

97 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:28:04pm

re: #91 ralphieboy

You're confusing two separate things.

"Date rate" is a term for when a woman is out on a date with a guy, and he rapes her. Pretty straightforward.

Withdrawal of consent can happen during any sexual activity no matter what the surrounding circumstances, be they date, marriage, one-night-stand, moment of blind passion in the elevator, etc.


When you say this:

No, I do not think that she "deserved" it or was "asking for it", but I had to ask, why did this woman think that she could put herself in such a potnetially compromising position without being aware of the risks?

You're overlooking that it's actually a larger risk for a woman to be alone with a friend or a family member, statistically.

When you say this:

The quaint and odd customs of interactions between the sexes arose as a response to such situations over the course of history.

You're simply wrong. Courtship was not designed as a rape-avoidance tool. I'm really confused why you think it was. And courtship of the kind you describe was never the norm for large amounts of the population.

98 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:28:17pm

re: #96 McSpiff

"Should I stop?", "NO!"...what now smart guy?

//Can't believe i just made that joke...

"Stop?? Hell, I finished 10 minutes ago!!!"

99 AK-47%  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:28:22pm

re: #95 sattv4u2

Consent ,,, YES

Withdrawel of consent,, NO

NO always trumps a YES,, ALWAYS,, no matter the order they were stated, no matter the circumstances
ALWAYS !

Clear now!?!?!


Yes, which is why the discussions annoy me.

I am trying to get at another point here, one which is really hard to convey in a thread, is that these odd and antiquated traditions of courship that we so gleefully abandoned with the sexual revolution had their purposes, even if they were a bit stodgy and anachronistic.

And when we abandon them we are left having idiotic discussions about what constitutes "consent".

100 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:29:20pm

re: #99 ralphieboy

The old practices did not have the purpose of safeguarding women. Why do you think they did?

101 calochortus  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:29:25pm

He is a fool. A nasty fool.

Besides, his metaphor is lousy. When you buy a ticket it doesn't obligate you to use it. It obligates the other party to provide the service if you choose to redeem that ticket.

102 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:30:37pm

re: #101 calochortus

Good point.

"I'm tired, think I'll go home."
"Excuse me, sir, you still have four tickets to the bumper cars. Strap in."
"But I don't want to. Can't I just-- oh god!"
"You buy the ticket, you ride the ride".

103 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:30:43pm

re: #99 ralphieboy

these odd and antiquated traditions of courship that we so gleefully abandoned
I think you're mixing up two things

"Courtships" still go on, even if they now include more frequent pre-marital consensual sex

"Date rape" has ALWAYS been a problem. ALWAYS. It's just that "now" we have a modern term for it

104 AK-47%  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:30:59pm

re: #100 Obdicut

The old practices did not have the purpose of safeguarding women. Why do you think they did?


You are right, they were more about safeguarding property, and a daughter's virginity was a marketable commodity.

That is what I see as the basis for a lot of the laws and customs concerning courtsip, such as those in the Middle East.

105 calochortus  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:31:55pm

re: #102 Obdicut

The amusement park from Hell. Bwahaahaahaa...

106 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:32:06pm

re: #104 ralphieboy

You are right, they were more about safeguarding property, and a daughter's virginity was a marketable commodity.

Which led to a lot of women being married to men they weren't actually sexually interested in, meaning that, in many ways, such courtship actually was a pathway to rape.

Especially back during the Victorian age, when women had their sexuality almost completely obfuscated from them, the wedding night was often a horrifying event.

107 AK-47%  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:32:51pm

re: #106 Obdicut

Which led to a lot of women being married to men they weren't actually sexually interested in, meaning that, in many ways, such courtship actually was a pathway to rape.

Especially back during the Victorian age, when women had their sexuality almost completely obfuscated from them, the wedding night was often a horrifying event.

If you didn't close your eyes and think of England, it certainly was...

108 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:33:28pm

re: #107 ralphieboy

Your posts on this tread are confusing the hell out of me.

109 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:33:54pm

re: #106 Obdicut

the wedding night was often a horrifying event.

I know mine was!!

Wifey and I paid for (most) of our weeding, and when the function hall presented me with the tab for the "open bar"

,, YIKES !!! HORROR!!

110 AK-47%  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:36:48pm

re: #108 Varek Raith

Your posts on this tread are confusing the hell out of me.


Don't grind your gears too much over it, I am trying to get a rather difficult point across, one that stems from the biological, social and psychological fact that sexual relations are very difficult matters to control, confine or regulate.

111 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:37:13pm

He's a creep and always will be.

112 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:37:52pm

re: #102 Obdicut

Good point.

"I'm tired, think I'll go home."
"Excuse me, sir, you still have four tickets to the bumper cars. Strap in."
"But I don't want to. Can't I just-- oh god!"
"You buy the ticket, you ride the ride".

Wait ,,,, if the "ticket" is a euphemism for the consensual sexual act, what type of act is "bumper cars" a euphemism for !?!?!

ummm,,,, nevahmind!!
///

113 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:39:35pm

re: #89 Killgore Trout

What right wing racism?
Challenger to Steele Has Racist Ties

Yikes.

114 AK-47%  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:46:02pm

re: #113 HappyWarrior

Yikes.

He is being put up to make Sarah Palin seem more palatable.

115 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:46:49pm

re: #114 ralphieboy

Palin's declined to stand.

116 calochortus  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:47:50pm

re: #114 ralphieboy

But where's the constituency for Palin? Her supporters want her to be President, not RNC Chairman

117 Slap  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:48:29pm

Forget his similarities to Assange.

I'm thinking that this particular strain (interpret in multiple ways) bears a striking similarity to the sorts of Sharia mindsets he warns against.

I'd buy him an irony meter, but he'd be frustrated that it doesn't heat up enough to get the creases out of the sheets.

118 Kragar  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:49:15pm

re: #115 Obdicut

Palin's declined to stand.

Of coure she did. Its a job with actual responsibilites.

119 Mark Winter  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:51:11pm

No means no. Anytime.
Just make sure that your partner understands that you mean No.
Which is quite easy btw. No faint moaning no no, but a firm loud STOP NOW.

120 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:52:28pm

re: #118 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Of coure she did. Its a job with actual responsibilites.

And given that Steele caught a lot of flack for being a grifter while on the job she couldn't use it to promote herself. She'd actually have to promote republicans.

121 AK-47%  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:52:47pm

re: #119 Mark Winter

No means no. Anytime.
Just make sure that your partner understands that you mean No.
Which is quite easy btw. No faint moaning no no, but a firm loud STOP NOW.

You just nailed what "coursthip" is at least supposed to be about: giving your partner the chance to see if he is capable of understanding such a request, regardless of the circumstances.

122 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:57:09pm

re: #119 Mark Winter

No means no. Anytime.
Just make sure that your partner understands that you mean No.
Which is quite easy btw. No faint moaning no no, but a firm loud STOP NOW.

in the fetish community we have it down quite well. RED means no/stop.

123 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 12:57:10pm

re: #121 ralphieboy

You just nailed what "coursthip" is at least supposed to be about: giving your partner the chance to see if he is capable of understanding such a request, regardless of the circumstances.

That in no way resembles what courtship was, though. At all. It's a completely false assertion.

124 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:01:22pm

re: #99 ralphieboy

I am trying to get at another point here, one which is really hard to convey in a thread, is that these odd and antiquated traditions of courship that we so gleefully abandoned with the sexual revolution had their purposes, even if they were a bit stodgy and anachronistic.

Their purpose of those rituals was generally to cement the idea of a woman as property, first of her father/family and then of her husband. The traditions of courtship were a long form negotiation over a transfer of ownership, with the secondary goal of getting the woman to go along willingly.

125 Mark Winter  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:01:24pm

re: #121 ralphieboy

You just nailed what "coursthip" is at least supposed to be about: giving your partner the chance to see if he is capable of understanding such a request, regardless of the circumstances.

I think that's important. And I think it's reasonable to ask that a NO needs to be communicated a bit more precisely when you are in the middle of hot sex.

Of course the longer I know my partner the easier this is. I'm not into one night stands but if that was about to happen I'd be very careful to communicate verbally or non-verbally what I would be doing next, to give her the time to react the way she wants to.

Actually this is quite easy.

126 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:01:44pm

re: #121 ralphieboy

You just nailed what "coursthip" is at least supposed to be about: giving your partner the chance to see if he is capable of understanding such a request, regardless of the circumstances.

errr,,, ummm,,,nahh!!!

Sorry, but your undertanding of 'courtship" in Victorian, prior and post times is incorrect

127 simoom  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:02:21pm

Gallup Poll today on the two year tax cut renewal and extension of unemployment benefits:

[Link: www.gallup.com...]

Two major elements included in the tax agreement reached Monday between President Barack Obama and Republican leaders in Congress meet with broad public support. Two-thirds of Americans (66%) favor extending the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts for all Americans for two years, and an identical number support extending unemployment benefits for the long-term unemployed.

---

According to Gallup polling conducted Dec. 3-6, the slight majority of Democrats, as well as most independents and Republicans, would vote for a two-year extension of the tax cuts passed in 2001 and 2003.

This differs slightly from a November Gallup poll giving Americans three options for extending the Bush tax cuts. That poll found 40% in favor of extending the tax cuts for all Americans, 44% in favor of extending them with limits on tax breaks for the wealthy, and 13% in favor of letting the tax breaks expire altogether. Nevertheless, the results of the new question suggest that, while the compromise position on taxes may not be their ideal, most Americans would support congressional passage of it.

In terms of extending unemployment benefits for the long-term unemployed, more rank-and-file Republicans say they would vote against this than for it; however, the vast majority of independents and Democrats are in favor.

They further break out some of the results to moderate Democrats and Republicans, which shows opposition to one part of the deal or the other increasing as you approach the ideological wings of each party (as I'm sure everyone would expect).

128 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:03:37pm

re: #125 Mark Winter

I'm not into one night stands but if that was about to happen I'd be very careful to communicate verbally or non-verbally what I would be doing next, to give her the time to react the way she wants to.

Charades?

129 Summer Seale  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:04:45pm

...and people still wonder in amazement when we refer to them as "The Christian Taliban".

130 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:05:05pm

re: #128 goddamnedfrank

I'm not into one night stands but if that was about to happen I'd be very careful to communicate verbally or non-verbally what I would be doing next, to give her the time to react the way she wants to.

Charades?

Cue cards

(or for the younger, more electronically savvy crowd,, a teleprompter!!)

131 Slap  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:05:34pm

re: #121 ralphieboy

Just out of curiosity, what's with the courtship fetish? Admittedly, the sheer formality of it (as it's represented in history and literature) does not exist any more; but the behavior actually exists in much wider ways than you seem to see. I lnow/have known plenty of folks who, if they're looking for a relationship, will date often, before considering allowing sex into the picture. I know many folks who have what could be described as an "alternative" view of sexual relationships and sexual morality who also take the time to get to know someone before jumping in. Of course, I also know folks who disregard such pragmatic approaches, as well.

Your point eludes me at the moment.

132 yasharki  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:05:48pm

re: #121 ralphieboy

You just nailed what "coursthip" is at least supposed to be about: giving your partner the chance to see if he is capable of understanding such a request, regardless of the circumstances.

Isn't courtship an act of seeking opposite sex's affection?

133 calochortus  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:07:12pm

re: #132 yasharki

Well, I'd like to think so.

134 Mark Winter  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:08:48pm

re: #128 goddamnedfrank

I'm not into one night stands but if that was about to happen I'd be very careful to communicate verbally or non-verbally what I would be doing next, to give her the time to react the way she wants to.

Charades?

Well for example, if I wanted to kiss a girl, especially for the first time, I could just ask: May I kiss you?

Or I could slowly move towards her lips, giving her the time to understand what I'm up to and giving her the time to turn away or do whatever she wants to.

Hollywood may promote bad examples but I don't do kisses "by surprise".

Just an example.

135 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:11:51pm

re: #134 Mark Winter

I don't do kisses "by surprise".

I don't either, mostly because i'm allergic to Punches To The Nose!
/

136 yasharki  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:12:12pm

re: #133 calochortus

Well, I'd like to think so.

Thank you! Is it me or are people making some seriously juvenile comments?

137 Slap  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:13:56pm

re: #135 sattv4u2

Personally, I'm more allergic to Kneecaps in the Balls.

But whatever keeps us respectful, ja?

138 yasharki  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:14:27pm

re: #134 Mark Winter

Well for example, if I wanted to kiss a girl, especially for the first time, I could just ask: May I kiss you?

Or I could slowly move towards her lips, giving her the time to understand what I'm up to and giving her the time to turn away or do whatever she wants to.

Hollywood may promote bad examples but I don't do kisses "by surprise".

Just an example.

Sounds like watching Hollywood productions was the only time you came close to kissing someone...

139 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:14:37pm

re: #136 yasharki

Thank you! Is it me or are people making some seriously juvenile comments?

It's you!

(ruo roh ,,, did I just do it!?!?!?)

Seriously though, yes, there are some "juvenile commenst", otherwise known as satire/jokes/sarcasm!

140 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:15:01pm

re: #136 yasharki

Thank you! Is it me or are people making some seriously juvenile comments?

Naw, these are the kinds of dating tips I give my 12 year old.

141 calochortus  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:15:52pm

re: #136 yasharki

Thank you! Is it me or are people making some seriously juvenile comments?

Some are. It is the internet, after all...

However, I'm not sure the nuances of some comments are easy to catch when one reads them. I always give people the benefit of the doubt.

142 yasharki  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:18:43pm

re: #139 sattv4u2

It's you!

(ruo roh ,,, did I just do it!?!?!?)

Seriously though, yes, there are some "juvenile commenst", otherwise known as satire/jokes/sarcasm!

Smack me with a satirical sarcasm paddle, I admit to sometimes mistaking sarcasm for truth, can I blame it on English being my second language? :)

143 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:19:32pm

re: #142 yasharki

Smack me with a satirical sarcasm paddle, I admit to sometimes mistaking sarcasm for truth, can I blame it on English being my second language? :)

Hell ,, English is my 1st language and I don't get it half the time!

144 AK-47%  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:19:50pm

re: #131 Slap

We are getting derailed on what "courtship" we were talking about: It is not just a matter of chaperones, petticoats, dorm room doors open 8" when male visitors are present and and both feet on the floor at all times, etc.

It is, as you said, about taking the time to get to know a person and gain an impression of how they react in certain situations before allowing yourselves to grow physically intimate with them.

I personally have little interest in having sex if the other partner is not willing. I might wheedle, beg, grovel, negoatiate, even lie, but I have never physically forced anyone to and hope I never will.

But there are plenty who have and would.

145 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:20:05pm

re: #132 yasharki

Isn't courtship an act of seeking opposite sex's affection?

"Courtship" means courtly, or very polite actions. I also like "to woo."

146 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:21:10pm

re: #145 prairiefire

"Courtship" means courtly, or very polite actions. I also like "to woo."

My "woo who's" often turned into "boo hoo's" !!!

147 Steve  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:22:04pm

OT: I am now running Ububtu on my laptop and this is fast.

148 yasharki  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:22:10pm

re: #146 sattv4u2

My "woo who's" often turned into "boo hoo's" !!!

Someone's been playing Sims too much :)

149 McSpiff  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:22:43pm

re: #146 sattv4u2

My "woo who's" often turned into "boo hoo's" !!!

Better than "Boo Boo's"

150 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:23:04pm

re: #145 prairiefire

"Courtship" means courtly, or very polite actions. I also like "to woo."

Thank god you're here!!

151 calochortus  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:23:16pm

re: #144 ralphieboy

There are also men who project their interest onto women. An example would be the rapist who was quoted in the news recently as saying it wasn't rape (victim was a complete stranger) because "she wanted it". He knew this because she had smiled at him in passing.

152 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:23:25pm

re: #145 prairiefire

"Courtship" means courtly, or very polite actions. I also like "to woo."

We call them gentleman callers.

153 Mark Winter  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:24:22pm

re: #138 yasharki

Sounds like watching Hollywood productions was the only time you came close to kissing someone...

Trust me on that one. You will get more kisses returned when you check the eyes of a girl first and not some lower parts.

(This is not the Friday night thread, is it?)

154 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:24:26pm

re: #76 ralphieboy

A woman or man is raped because the person they are with is a rapist. End of story. I cannot believe how often this has to be said.

155 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:24:48pm

re: #144 ralphieboy

I personally have little interest in having sex if the other partner is not willing. I might wheedle, beg, grovel, negoatiate, even lie, but I have never physically forced anyone to and hope I never will.

You, sir, are a beacon in a malevolent world.

156 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:24:48pm

re: #152 Jeff In Ohio

We call them gentleman callers.

You work at The Bunny Ranch!?!?!
/

157 yasharki  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:25:13pm

re: #145 prairiefire

"Courtship" means courtly, or very polite actions. I also like "to woo."

TheFreeDictionary.COM begs to differ: "Specialized behavior in animals that leads to or initiates mating."

158 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:25:16pm

re: #152 Jeff In Ohio

We call them gentleman callers.

I have always relied on the kindness of strangers.

159 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:25:17pm

re: #150 Stanley Sea

Thank god you're here!!

I feel icky.

160 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:25:39pm

And on that note, have to make a grocery store run lest there be no dinner!

161 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:27:16pm

re: #159 Jeff In Ohio

I feel icky.

Take two aspirine and call me in the morning

(no ,, i'm not a doctor ,,but I DID stay at a Holiday Inn Express)

162 calochortus  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:28:09pm

Must go out and get a little exercise. The potlucks are coming thick and fast and I need to walk off some of the "damage".

163 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:28:40pm

re: #157 yasharki

TheFreeDictionary.COM begs to differ: "Specialized behavior in animals that leads to or initiates mating."

It certainly is specialized behavior. Being polite gets you farther and keeps you out of jail.

164 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:29:30pm

This sick, sick depraved stuff is the other side of what I was writing about yesterday.

There are so many ways that people simply abuse each other and justify abusing each other. It is all disgusting in the worst possible ways.

If yesterday, I was sickened by the ways that certain women manipulate stupid men, today I get treated to the ugly, ugly side of abusive men who wish to prey on women.

I suppose the real mediation here to come up with is that the right wing these days is based on the most selfish, everyone for themselves, "I got mine, F-U sort of mentality."

In this way, both of those disgusting things become one in the same.

RSM sees women as object for his enjoyment, and how dare they complain about the actions of an ubermensch like him! They asked for it. He never has responsibility. He never needs to see women as people.

The women on Fox use their sexuality to sell propaganda and turn themselves into such objects. Sure it is all part of the way get they get paid. It's show business. The rubes are stupid.... They asked for it. She never has responsibility. She never needs to portray women as people.

Do I make any more sense now?

This is all just a repugnant cycle of abuse, self abuse and dehumanization perpetrated by those who only ever think of themselves, and have no care for others as an enshrined philosophy.

165 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:29:54pm

re: #156 sattv4u2

You work at The Bunny Ranch!?!?!
/

Gary's Got A Boner

166 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:31:16pm

re: #150 Stanley Sea

Thank god you're here!!

Hey, you! I can't wait for my little guy to hit puberty. He is going to get several lectures, I'm already thinking them up.
"You have to ask every step of the way, you can never, ever assume."

167 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:33:28pm

OK, So Lieberman says they have 60 votes to repeal DADT tonight. Collins is waffling according to some sites.

What a night it's going to be. I hope to HELL that I don't have to post my McCain is a asshole post again.

168 yasharki  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:35:01pm

re: #153 Mark Winter

Trust me on that one. You will get more kisses returned when you check the eyes of a girl first and not some lower parts.

(This is not the Friday night thread, is it?)

Unless you're a snake charmer, you'll get a lot more kisses returned if you pay attention to girl's "lower parts" versus checking her eyes...

169 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:35:40pm

re: #167 Stanley Sea

Wow, it could go down tonight? It would get the stick out of a lot of liberals backsides, to put it impolitely.

170 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:36:29pm

re: #168 yasharki

Unless you're a snake charmer, you'll get a lot more kisses returned if you pay attention to girl's "lower parts" versus checking her eyes...

I think you are referring to something further down the road then courtship, dude.

171 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:37:04pm

re: #166 prairiefire

when I was growing up and came of dating age my father told me that I should approach every girl with my hands up in the air and arms raised and that I should dance with them the same way.

172 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:37:15pm

re: #169 prairiefire

Wow, it could go down tonight? It would get the stick out of a lot of liberals backsides, to put it impolitely.

EXACTLY.

Apparently Murkowski is a yes on repeal now too.

173 Mark Winter  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:37:29pm

re: #168 yasharki

Unless you're a snake charmer, you'll get a lot more kisses returned if you pay attention to girl's "lower parts" versus checking her eyes...

That's for later

174 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:37:44pm

re: #167 Stanley Sea

well, it bears repeating, he IS an asshole.

175 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:38:14pm

re: #169 prairiefire

Wow, it could go down tonight? It would get the stick out of a lot of liberals backsides, to put it impolitely.

Gee, in the adolescent sex thread, I could make a lot of hay with those lines.

176 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:38:50pm

re: #171 Dreggas

when I was growing up and came of dating age my father told me that I should approach every girl with my hands up in the air and arms raised and that I should dance with them the same way.

What? No slumped over each other like a pair of flour sacks, shuffling around in a small circle?

177 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:39:06pm

re: #172 Stanley Sea

EXACTLY.

Apparently Murkowski is a yes on repeal now too.

///BWAHAHA, now the Republican will learn how we dems feel about Joe Liberman!

178 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:39:28pm

re: #175 Jeff In Ohio

Gee, in the adolescent sex thread, I could make a lot of hay with those lines.

Go for it. I am so sick of Democratic fratricide at the moment.

179 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:40:08pm

re: #176 prairiefire

well we did that. I never really took his advice.

180 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:40:56pm

re: #176 prairiefire

What? No slumped over each other like a pair of flour sacks, shuffling around in a small circle?

lol!!

181 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:41:40pm

re: #178 prairiefire

Go for it. I am so sick of Democratic fratricide at the moment.

*Draws sword*
FOR THE GOD-EMPEROR!
/

182 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:43:53pm

re: #178 prairiefire

Liberals are acting stupid and the Dem leadership has no one to blame but themselves for the position they put their president in. I was hoping they'd grown up since Clinton shot his load in the oval office. Guess I was wrong.

Did you see this chart at Washington Monthly

Image: taxdealchart.jpg

That about sold it for me.

183 yasharki  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:44:49pm

re: #171 Dreggas

when I was growing up and came of dating age my father told me that I should approach every girl with my hands up in the air and arms raised and that I should dance with them the same way.

My father told me not to make a mess on his bed when I brought girls home :)

184 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:45:14pm

re: #182 Jeff In Ohio

Liberals are acting stupid and the Dem leadership has no one to blame but themselves for the position they put their president in. I was hoping they'd grown up since Clinton shot his load in the oval office. Guess I was wrong.

Did you see this chart at Washington Monthly

Image: taxdealchart.jpg

That about sold it for me.

Yeah after seeing that I'm ready to revise my vote on yesterday's vote, if this thing passes it not only clears the path for START and repealing DADT< but also gives us a second stimulus...

185 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:46:36pm

RS McCain should go ride himself. After he buys himself a ticket.

186 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:47:48pm

re: #183 yasharki

My father told me not to make a mess on his bed when I brought girls home :)

My dad told me to never argue with assholes and always shit on the clock. Girls, never heard a peep. Everything I know about women, women taught me.

187 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:48:39pm

re: #164 ludwigvanquixote

RSM sees women as object for his enjoyment, and how dare they complain about the actions of an ubermensch like him! They asked for it. He never has responsibility. He never needs to see women as people.

The women on Fox use their sexuality to sell propaganda and turn themselves into such objects.

No, they don't. They remain people. They do not turn into objects. You are wrong to say that.

188 McSpiff  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:48:44pm

re: #186 Jeff In Ohio

My dad told me to never argue with assholes and always shit on the clock. Girls, never heard a peep. Everything I know about women, women taught me.

...shit on the clock?

189 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:50:33pm

re: #184 jamesfirecat

Yeah after seeing that I'm ready to revise my vote on yesterday's vote, if this thing passes it not only clears the path for START and repealing DADT< but also gives us a second stimulus...

What is the Dream Acts status? Will the Dems try to ammend it to something?

190 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:50:36pm

re: #188 McSpiff

...shit on the clock?

While getting paid. At work. On the clock. TIme cards.

Did I wander into Plato's Cave today?

191 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:50:40pm

re: #188 McSpiff

It's puzzling the hell out of me, too.

192 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:50:53pm

re: #164 ludwigvanquixote

Do I make any more sense now?

No.

Put the shovel down.

193 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:51:11pm

re: #190 Jeff In Ohio

Ahhh.

That explains it, but it doesn't really explain it.

194 yasharki  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:51:17pm

re: #191 Obdicut

It's puzzling the hell out of me, too.

Count me in

195 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:51:45pm

re: #190 Jeff In Ohio

Ha!

196 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:52:47pm

re: #186 Jeff In Ohio

My dad told me to never argue with assholes and always shit on the clock. Girls, never heard a peep. Everything I know about women, women taught me.

"Son, never let them see you sweat, and always defecate in public."

197 nines09  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:52:49pm

Maybe this will finally land him that job at Fox News?

198 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:53:42pm

re: #193 Obdicut

Ahhh.

That explains it, but it doesn't really explain it.

Why shit at home, when you can get paid to shit?

199 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:54:20pm

Can you spare just $2.00?
RSM is a poor old boy living in the USA.
He has only has half a brain.
Each day he has to ride 7 miles to work along a narrow road on a rusty bike with bent wheels, no brakes and only 1 pedal.

If you send me just $2.00, I will send you the video - its hilarious

200 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:54:29pm

re: #197 nines09

Maybe this will finally land him that job at Fox News?

Now that is a working man's attitude.

201 McSpiff  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:55:08pm

re: #190 Jeff In Ohio

While getting paid. At work. On the clock. TIme cards.

Did I wander into Plato's Cave today?

I've done this for years. I've actually seen a place try and discipline someone for taking too long when they shit as well. That went real well.

202 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:55:26pm

re: #198 Jeff In Ohio

Why shit at home, when you can get paid to shit?

Well, at my old apartment, I had a really nice bathroom with good reading material.

And some of my workplaces have had bathrooms you wanted to avoid whenever possible.

203 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:55:30pm

re: #200 prairiefire

Whoops, meant for Jeff's #198.

204 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:55:41pm

re: #186 Jeff In Ohio

My dad told me to never argue with assholes and always shit on the clock. Girls, never heard a peep. Everything I know about women, women taught me.

Father Son, now that your going out into the world, there's something you should know. You see that?
Navin Yeah.
Father That's shit. And this: shinola.
Navin Shit, shinola.
Father Son, you're going to be all right.
Mother And remember, the Lord loves a working man.
Navin Lord loves a working man.
Father And son, don't never, ever trust whitey.
Navin Don't trust whitey. The Lord loves a working man, don't trust whitey. (he hugs his mom)

205 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:56:05pm

re: #195 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Thank you. Tough crowd.

206 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:56:07pm

re: #202 Obdicut

Well, at my old apartment, I had a really nice bathroom with good reading material.

And some of my workplaces have had bathrooms you wanted to avoid whenever possible.

Are you in a pre-war building with nice, old tile?

207 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:56:55pm

re: #99 ralphieboy

Yes, which is why the discussions annoy me.

I am trying to get at another point here, one which is really hard to convey in a thread, is that these odd and antiquated traditions of courship that we so gleefully abandoned with the sexual revolution had their purposes, even if they were a bit stodgy and anachronistic.

And when we abandon them we are left having idiotic discussions about what constitutes "consent".

There are reasons that they were gleefully abandoned.

208 McSpiff  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:57:20pm

re: #202 Obdicut

Well, at my old apartment, I had a really nice bathroom with good reading material.

And some of my workplaces have had bathrooms you wanted to avoid whenever possible.

I worked in a Naval training station. One of the stalls had the nicest stocked library I've seen. Everything from Hunting and Fishing mags, motocross to defense quarterlies.

209 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:57:24pm

re: #202 Obdicut

Well, at my old apartment, I had a really nice bathroom with good reading material.

And some of my workplaces have had bathrooms you wanted to avoid whenever possible.

Your killing me Obi. I'm fucking dead.

210 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:58:23pm

re: #206 prairiefire

The old one was in San Francisco, with a nearby lemon tree with birdsong all day long, nice tiles, a great paint job, and a little bookshelf.

Now I've just got a normal one, but I have my own consulting business so there's no 'on the clock' anyway.

The job I had the longest that was hourly-- QA tester-- I tried to avoid the bathroom as much as possible. QA testers tend to have horrific diets, and the bathroom smelled like an open latrine.

211 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 1:58:39pm

re: #208 McSpiff

I worked in a Naval training station. One of the stalls had the nicest stocked library I've seen. Everything from Hunting and Fishing mags, motocross to defense quarterlies.

Go vegetarian! Ain't time to read nuthin'!

212 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 2:00:34pm

This thread is killing me!

213 McSpiff  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 2:00:51pm

re: #211 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Go vegetarian! Ain't time to read nuthin'!

Heh, really getting into TMI territory here... but it was the coffee man! One hour after coffee break, without fail, id be heading to the library.

214 Kobyashi Maru  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 2:01:04pm

What that execrable chant I recently heard from a bunch of Yale men..."No means yes, yes means anal...."

215 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 2:03:57pm

re: #213 McSpiff

Heh, really getting into TMI territory here... but it was the coffee man! One hour after coffee break, without fail, id be heading to the library.

The bathrooms are always busy at Starbuck's.

216 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 2:07:17pm

re: #204 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Father Son, now that your going out into the world, there's something you should know. You see that?
Navin Yeah.
Father That's shit. And this: shinola.
Navin Shit, shinola.
Father Son, you're going to be all right.
Mother And remember, the Lord loves a working man.
Navin Lord loves a working man.
Father And son, don't never, ever trust whitey.
Navin Don't trust whitey. The Lord loves a working man, don't trust whitey. (he hugs his mom)

And what about his 'Special Purpose'?

217 yasharki  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 2:08:56pm

re: #214 Kobyashi Maru

What that execrable chant I recently heard from a bunch of Yale men..."No means yes, yes means anal..."

Just out of curiosity, what do people think about this story: [Link: gothamist.com...] (It seems to be a sticky story on gothamist)?

218 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 2:13:03pm

re: #192 wrenchwench

No.

Put the shovel down.

OK fine. Deny the existence of the cycle.

219 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 2:15:40pm

re: #187 Obdicut

No, they don't. They remain people. They do not turn into objects. You are wrong to say that.

NO! OF course they do not turn into objects! How can you possibly read that into what I am writing! MY entire point is that I hate the idea of turning people into objects! Am I speaking in tongues? Am I writing Sanskrit? How could you possibly get that interpretation of what I wrote?

I am saying that people like RSM and the women on Fox turn women into objects and that is bad!

What is wrong with everyone?

220 yasharki  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 2:18:52pm

re: #219 LudwigVanQuixote

NO! OF course they do not turn into objects! How can you possibly read that into what I am writing! MY entire point is that I hate the idea of turning people into objects! Am I speaking in tongues? Am I writing Sanskrit? How could you possibly get that interpretation of what I wrote?

I am saying that people like RSM and the women on Fox turn women into objects and that is bad!

What is wrong with everyone?

Have you ever bothered asking women who turn themselves into objects weather they consider it a bad thing? Give it a try...

221 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 2:20:09pm

re: #219 LudwigVanQuixote

How could you possibly get that interpretation of what I wrote?

Because you said this:

The women on Fox use their sexuality to sell propaganda and turn themselves into such objects.

What is wrong with everyone?

Ludwig, when you're mis-communicating in such a way that literally everyone else misunderstands you, it's not what's wrong with everyone else.

222 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 2:23:04pm

re: #220 yasharki

Have you ever bothered asking women who turn themselves into objects weather they consider it a bad thing? Give it a try...

It seems to me that a very large portion of feminist literature is abut being upset about that for exactly the same reasons I am. Right, objectification of women is bad? That is a pretty feminist ideal...

Did you consider that?

223 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 2:27:11pm

re: #221 Obdicut

such objects - what does the word such refer to. Such implies "as in" What was the "as in?"

I get that the discussion last night was emotional for some, but pleae stop and think. In order for your interpretation to be correct, it wold imply me defending RSM. Do you think I would ever defend that asshole?

And no it is not everyone who didn't get it.

There is a real predatory cycle here that revolves around the objectification of women. I am writing in opposition to such objectification when it is done by both mean and women themselves.

It is insanely frustrating because I have written this about 700 different ways now.

224 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 2:34:23pm

re: #223 LudwigVanQuixote

such objects - what does the word such refer to. Such implies "as in" What was the "as in?"

That didn't really make any sense.

In order for your interpretation to be correct, it wold imply me defending RSM.

No, that's not true. It would just require that your assertion is that some women, through their actions, are capable of turning themselves into objects. That's not what RSM is saying at all.

There is a real predatory cycle here that revolves around the objectification of women. I am writing in opposition to such objectification when it is done by both mean and women themselves.

Then phrase it this way next time:

The women on Fox use their sexuality to sell propaganda and, in doing so, objectify themselves

That avoids the highly problematic claim that they're turning themselves into objects.

It is insanely frustrating because I have written this about 700 different ways now.

A large part of the problem was that you took quite awhile to understand the problems with using the loaded language-- like slut, whore, etc. So now we're on to a different problem, and your words are getting parsed more carefully exactly because you've already made some rather egregious errors in language and communication.

I'm glad you're still engaging with this, but saying things like "What is wrong with everyone" is rather insulting to the large number of people who have been trying to get you to understand how it is that you're mis-communicating.

225 yasharki  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 2:35:50pm

re: #222 LudwigVanQuixote

It seems to me that a very large portion of feminist literature is abut being upset about that for exactly the same reasons I am. Right, objectification of women is bad? That is a pretty feminist ideal...

Did you consider that?

Nah, I actually dated a whore, and tried my best to "liberate" her. The problem was, she didn't want to be liberated, in fact she found feministic ideas and my attempts to "liberate" her amusing. Her mother laughed in my face when I accused her of bringing her daugher to US in order to pimp her...

226 yasharki  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 2:49:12pm

What/who is RSM? Googling didn't help me to find an answer.

227 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 2:49:35pm

re: #224 Obdicut

Then phrase it this way next time:

The women on Fox use their sexuality to sell propaganda and, in doing so, objectify themselves

That avoids the highly problematic claim that they're turning themselves into objects.


Wow... You do realize that those two sentences say exactly the same thing.

Since the definition of objectify is to turn something into an object, I am at a loss. What else could it mean?

I hear your point though about treading on eggshells.

However there is one real big point that I would not like to get missed. Regardless of the language used to describe the problem, there is still a problem. I understand that the nature of this crowd all too often revolves around semantics.

As to temper tantrums about who has the right to be offended by things, what about my right to be offended by odious behavior?

Both RSM and the Fox image of womanhood are flip sides of the same problem. That is the real point. It is disgusting when contributed to by men and it is disgusting when it is enabled by women.

It is disgusting on both counts.

Are you defending a cycle of abuse by fighting me so fiercely? No of course you aren't. However, you are reading into my words all sorts of things that prevent you from seeing a point believe you would agree with.

That said, the many many very pro woman posts I have made ought to give me the benefit of the doubt if there is a question of interpretation.

228 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 2:56:23pm

re: #224 Obdicut

A large part of the problem was that you took quite awhile to understand the problems with using the loaded language-- like slut, whore, etc. So now we're on to a different problem, and your words are getting parsed more carefully exactly because you've already made some rather egregious errors in language and communication.

Please don't talk to me like I am five.

I understand that people don't like certain words that I used. I knew that some would get in a huff when I wrote them. I would rather discuss the ideas, than offend people needlessly. So I will use different language.

But what offends me here is that no- I really don't like seeing people use sex to sell evil things - and there really are words for that in the English language. However much it offends, to hear those words, the original offence I was complaining about is greater, and the words are accurate.

It is like that preacher who said:

Last night 30,000 children died of hunger.

Most of you don't give a shit.

What is worse, is that most of you are more offended that I said shit than that 30,000 children died last night.

229 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 2:57:46pm

re: #227 LudwigVanQuixote

Wow... You do realize that those two sentences say exactly the same thing.

No, they don't.


Since the definition of objectify is to turn something into an object, I am at a loss. What else could it mean?

It means to treat something as though it's an object. Not to turn it into an object.


As to temper tantrums about who has the right to be offended by things, what about my right to be offended by odious behavior?

Nobody is objecting to you being offended, so this seems a rather moot point.

However, you are reading into my words all sorts of things that prevent you from seeing a point believe you would agree with.

Not really. I'm mainly reacting to how long it took you to understand the problem with using words like whore, slut, etc. to disparage women who you think are using their sexuality to achieve evil ends.

That said, the many many very pro woman posts I have made ought to give me the benefit of the doubt if there is a question of interpretation.

I'm sorry, but the post where you attempt to defend the use of language like whore, slut, etc. is a hurdle to get past. I don't think you're in any way anti-woman. However, I do think that you're human.

230 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 2:58:11pm

re: #228 LudwigVanQuixote

Please don't talk to me like I am five.

Okay. I'm just not going to talk to you about this any more.

231 yasharki  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 2:59:32pm

re: #229 Obdicut

Wait a minute, doesn't objectivity mean something like unbiased?

232 The Left  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 3:02:07pm

It's generally a mistake to refer to women's justified anger over the use of sexually degrading language as a 'temper tantrum' or to dismiss it as an 'emotional' reaction.
Especially when it's been explained, repeatedly, why these words are loaded.
A word to the wise.

233 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 3:02:56pm

re: #229 Obdicut

You know I really don't want to open this whole can of worms again, but again I really do not like being spoken to like I am five.

In the English Language, a woman who uses her sexuality to manipulate men for her own selfish or evil aims is a?

Seriously?

What is the word?

Now I fully understand that there are those who are offended by the existence of the word, even when it is in no way pointed at them. I get that. I don't want those people to become so upset with the word I chose that I can no longer communicate with them. However, I am not going to be browbeaten by you or anyone into thinking that the original complaint was invalid.

234 The Left  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 3:03:37pm

re: #224 Obdicut

That didn't really make any sense.

No, that's not true. It would just require that your assertion is that some women, through their actions, are capable of turning themselves into objects. That's not what RSM is saying at all.

Then phrase it this way next time:

That avoids the highly problematic claim that they're turning themselves into objects.

A large part of the problem was that you took quite awhile to understand the problems with using the loaded language-- like slut, whore, etc. So now we're on to a different problem, and your words are getting parsed more carefully exactly because you've already made some rather egregious errors in language and communication.

I'm glad you're still engaging with this, but saying things like "What is wrong with everyone" is rather insulting to the large number of people who have been trying to get you to understand how it is that you're mis-communicating.

This.

235 The Left  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 3:04:49pm

re: #221 Obdicut

Because you said this:

Ludwig, when you're mis-communicating in such a way that literally everyone else misunderstands you, it's not what's wrong with everyone else.

This times forever.

236 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 3:05:09pm

re: #232 iceweasel

It's generally a mistake to refer to women's justified anger over the use of sexually degrading language as a 'temper tantrum' or to dismiss it as an 'emotional' reaction.
Especially when it's been explained, repeatedly, why these words are loaded.
A word to the wise.

And it it is generally insulting to fixate on a phrase out of context and infer things that aren't true while making false claims about what the man meant.

It seems the thing to learn from you is that if a man offends a woman, she is the only one to define offence AND if a woman offends a man, women are still the only ones to define offence.

I disagree. I am honestly offended by the whole cycle of abuse equally from both sides.

237 zora  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 3:07:54pm

re: #233 LudwigVanQuixote

i'll bite. what's the word? oh, and what's the word for her male equivalent?

238 yasharki  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 3:08:26pm

re: #221 Obdicut

Because you said this:

Ludwig, when you're mis-communicating in such a way that literally everyone else misunderstands you, it's not what's wrong with everyone else.

Why are you amounting your opinion with "everyone else"?

239 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 3:10:16pm

re: #232 iceweasel

It's generally a mistake to refer to women's justified anger over the use of sexually degrading language as a 'temper tantrum' or to dismiss it as an 'emotional' reaction.
Especially when it's been explained, repeatedly, why these words are loaded.
A word to the wise.

Bigoted language against women is really one of the last socially accepted bigotries in the West. This needs to change and the good start would be a total moratorium on these words unless they're used in quotes.

Some people (and no, I'm not saying this about anyone here, what I have in mind are real-life Russian examples I often read in Runet) try to "save" bigoted lexicon by applying the words only to "bad" representatives of the group. Thus the k-word (zhid in Russian) is only applied to "Jews who are really greedy", the n-word is only applied to "blacks who are really lazy and stupid", etc. The funny thing is that this lets people think that they're not being bigoted - they're not maligning the whole group, after all, they even say that the rest of the group is "good".

240 The Left  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 3:13:06pm

re: #236 LudwigVanQuixote

And it it is generally insulting to fixate on a phrase out of context

The context was that you highjacked a thread about consent into a discussion of 'why ludwig has the right to refer to female fox newscasters as gutter sluts and whores', and it took you about 140 comments to even begin to concede that it's wrong.

Except you still won't concede it. Only that it isn't an 'effective' mode of communication.

Now the context is this thread being highjacked into a further discussion of it. Which I'm not going to particpate in.

Lots of people are 'misunderstanding' you, Ludwig. The common denominator here is you. I don't even think you realise what you're saying.

241 Aye Pod  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 3:14:23pm

re: #236 LudwigVanQuixote

AND if a woman offends a man, women are still the only ones to define offence.

'Offending a man', in this case, by being attractive and dressing attractively for TV? Sorry Ludwig, but in my world, women are allowed to do this without being called whores and sluts. If the attractive woman in question is broadcasting bigoted crap, that is very sad. But she's still not a slut.

And if there is a criticism to be made about Fox's hiring of 'dolly birds' then that justifies an attack on Fox and their hiring directives, it still doesn't justify an attack on the women themselves, or make such attacks remotely acceptable.

242 The Left  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 3:16:23pm

re: #239 Sergey Romanov

Bigoted language against women is really one of the last socially accepted bigotries in the West. This needs to change and the good start would be a total moratorium on these words unless they're used in quotes.

Some people (and no, I'm not saying this about anyone here, what I have in mind are real-life Russian examples I often read in Runet) try to "save" bigoted lexicon by applying the words only to "bad" representatives of the group. Thus the k-word (zhid in Russian) is only applied to "Jews who are really greedy", the n-word is only applied to "blacks who are really lazy and stupid", etc. The funny thing is that this lets people think that they're not being bigoted - they're not maligning the whole group, after all, they even say that the rest of the group is "good".

Exactly. Thanks, well said.

I said to jimmah something like this earlier-- saying something like I like women-- just not the gutter sluts on Fox isn't any different than saying "i like black people! Just not the ones who are n-words!"
Anyway, that's orthogonal to the RSM issue. But co-incidentally, I'm pretty sure he'd endorse both sentiments.

243 The Left  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 3:19:25pm

re: #236 LudwigVanQuixote


It seems the thing to learn from you is that if a man offends a woman, she is the only one to define offence AND if a woman offends a man, women are still the only ones to define offence.

No, you don't get it. Because there IS a doublestandard, there is ALSO a double standard about offence. It really is that simple.

244 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 3:22:23pm

re: #241 Jimmah

'Offending a man', in this case, by being attractive and dressing attractively for TV? Sorry Ludwig, but in my world, women are allowed to do this without being called whores and sluts. If the attractive woman in question is broadcasting bigoted crap, that is very sad. But she's still not a slut.

And if there is a criticism to be made about Fox's hiring of 'dolly birds' then that justifies an attack on Fox and their hiring directives, it still doesn't justify an attack on the women themselves, or make such attacks remotely acceptable.

Ok you are dear friend but you are being an utter jerk with your straw men.

The offense is not being attractive. The offense is not being on TV.

No I rather clearly defined multiple times in dozens of ways that what offends me is:

Women who degrade themselves and others (including other women) by using their sexuality to push evil propaganda. Even from just a feminist view, do you consider he Fox women to be a step forward or a step back for women's rights? What hypocrisy!

who espouse views you disagree with
WTF Jimmah? Just disagree with? They are actively using their bodies to help sell an agenda that you yourself consider pure evil! And it is pure evil. There is no question.

WTF?

This is not just disagreeing!

What I see from this clearly is indoctrination from the other side.

Exploiting people is bad. Using sexuality to exploit people is bad. It is bad whenever men or women do it. However it seems to me that you are arguing that women can't be held responsible for when they do it.

They should be ashamed in this case.

245 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 3:23:26pm

Also, Ludwig, I like you very much. I think it could be best to "sleep this over"? I sometimes find that after 24h my perspective changes somewhat and I understand why my opponent was saying this or that to me.

246 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 3:26:59pm

re: #243 iceweasel

No, you don't get it. Because there IS a doublestandard, there is ALSO a double standard about offence. It really is that simple.

Yes I do get it. I also get that because of the double standard, you refuse to call actual cases of it what it is.

I love you Ice I really do, but do you see for a moment how it is possible I find your stance hypocritical?

I pose the same question to you.

I mean: Women who degrade themselves and others (including other women) by using their sexuality to push evil propaganda (and promote negative stereotypes of women while we are at it).

Even from just a feminist view, do you consider he Fox women to be a step forward or a step back for women's rights? What hypocrisy!

And please don't talk about "just" disagreeing either.

I just dissagree with you about appropriate language to describe something ugly.

I, and you and Jimmah do a lot more than just disagree with the agenda these women are selling.

247 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 3:29:31pm

re: #245 Sergey Romanov

Also, Ludwig, I like you very much. I think it could be best to "sleep this over"? I sometimes find that after 24h my perspective changes somewhat and I understand why my opponent was saying this or that to me.

You know you are right. I actually do understand what they are saying. I acknowledged it. I just wish they understood what I was saying.

248 The Left  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 3:36:58pm

re: #246 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes I do get it. I also get that because of the double standard, you refuse to call actual cases of it what it is.

I love you Ice I really do, but do you see for a moment how it is possible I find your stance hypocritical?

I pose the same question to you.

But this is the issue. Your insistence that these words are 'calling actual cases of it what it is'. How is it possible for you not to see that this is the same justification used by any bigot to justify his own use of such words?

Jews are ok-- but that soros, he's a real ----.
Black people are dandy! Those N----s though--they're N's.
i love women! Just not those gutter sluts on Fox.


Even from just a feminist view, do you consider he Fox women to be a step forward or a step back for women's rights? What hypocrisy!

Again, not the issue. You're changing the subject again.

How does calling Foxs News women 'gutter sluts' advance the cause of women's rights?
If you think Fox news is bad for women's rights, and they are, it's because they push a misogynistic agenda (anti-woman policies). Not because they have 'gutter sluts' hosting their show, or because women 'use their sexuality' to sell that agenda.

And please don't talk about "just" disagreeing either.

I just dissagree with you about appropriate language to describe something ugly.

I, and you and Jimmah do a lot more than just disagree with the agenda these women are selling.

Re: bolded: I don't think that's all we're disagreeing about now. BTW, I overuse the word 'just' a lot, FYI.

249 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 3:41:02pm

re: #247 LudwigVanQuixote

You know you are right. I actually do understand what they are saying. I acknowledged it. I just wish they understood what I was saying.

I responded to you on your Page on this topic.

250 Aye Pod  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 3:52:08pm

re: #244 LudwigVanQuixote


Women who degrade themselves and others (including other women) by using their sexuality to push evil propaganda.

And they 'use their sexuality'? By being attractive and dressing attractively, as is commonplace for female news broadcasters on many stations, not just Fox - and female professionals in many jobs. As far as I can tell they are not strutting around in front of the cameras wearing peep-hole bras and crotchless panties.

If you think that Fox relies too heavily on attractive female hosts then by all means criticise the shallow expectations you feel Fox are playing to - but when you use the sort of language you have been employing in this discussion and start talking about women 'projecting their sexuality onto you', you lose people.

A lot of people who normally agree with you are having difficulty with the way you are phrasing things - people who like you. There are a zillion valid criticisms of Fox News - you have chosen instead an approach that makes you look like a misogynist. Seriously, why do that?

251 The Left  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 3:53:34pm

re: #99 ralphieboy

Yes, which is why the discussions annoy me.

I am trying to get at another point here, one which is really hard to convey in a thread, is that these odd and antiquated traditions of courship that we so gleefully abandoned with the sexual revolution had their purposes, even if they were a bit stodgy and anachronistic.

And when we abandon them we are left having idiotic discussions about what constitutes "consent".

Oh man.
Yes, let us by all means return to antiquated notions of courtship, where we're not bothered by idiotic notions like 'consent'.

Let us return gleefully to that abandoned time, when confusing and complicated concepts like "No means no" didn't trouble us!

252 bratwurst  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 3:58:22pm

re: #251 iceweasel

Oh man.
Yes, let us by all means return to antiquated notions of courtship, where we're not bothered by idiotic notions like 'consent'.

Let us return gleefully to that abandoned time, when confusing and complicated concepts like "No means no" didn't trouble us!

The idea that "consent" could be a head-scratcher for anyone with enough brain power to use a computer is more than troubling to me.

253 The Left  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 4:01:32pm

re: #252 bratwurst

The idea that "consent" could be a head-scratcher for anyone with enough brain power to use a computer is more than troubling to me.

It's horrifying that there is a whole rightwing noise machine devoted to furthering that notion too. "Wot's this crazee consent thing these wacky feminazis are on about?How silly, haha". RSM's post is just one (granted, extremely loathsome) in a long line of them.

That particular narrative is going to be getting a LOT of attention if the Assange rape cases are the first thing he's tried for.

Not sure I have the stomach for it at this point.

254 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 4:01:40pm

re: #248 iceweasel

But this is the issue. Your insistence that these words are 'calling actual cases of it what it is'. How is it possible for you not to see that this is the same justification used by any bigot to justify his own use of such words?

Excellent! now we are getting somewhere.

Let me take your examples and show you what I mean.

Jews are ok-- but that Maddoff, is criminal scum who betrayed his own people ---.

Black people are dandy! Those gangstas though--they're fucking barbarians.

I love women! Just not those gutter sluts on Fox - or any other woman who tries to promote an evil agenda through her sexuality.

How does calling Foxs News women 'gutter sluts' advance the cause of women's rights?

By calling ugly things what they are, it leaves less room for people to equivocate or rationalize evil behavior.

If you think Fox news is bad for women's rights, and they are, it's because they push a misogynistic agenda (anti-woman policies).

Agreed.

Not because they have 'gutter sluts' hosting their show, or because women 'use their sexuality' to sell that agenda.

ON the contrary the barbies they use are absolutely part of pushing that image and agenda.

Re: bolded: I don't think that's all we're disagreeing about now. BTW, I overuse the word 'just' a lot, FYI.

Indeed. For the record, I truly respect you and have always liked you. We are disagreeing. VERY strongly.

255 The Left  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 4:10:39pm

re: #254 LudwigVanQuixote

Excellent! now we are getting somewhere.

Let me take your examples and show you what I mean.

Jews are ok-- but that Maddoff, is criminal scum who betrayed his own people ---.

Black people are dandy! Those gangstas though--they're fucking barbarians.

I love women! Just not those gutter sluts on Fox - or any other woman who tries to promote an evil agenda through her sexuality.

Ludwig, you changed the example and continue to miss the point. You can't call women sluts or whores because in a sexist society women are held to be ONLY sluts and whores. T

Thus, saying:
Black people are dandy! Those gangstas though--they're fucking barbarians.
is not the same thing as saying those gangstas, they're n-words.

for the simple reason that the n word has a special loaded history and is meant to convey, SPECIFICALLY, that there is this essential nature, "AN N" -- most black people transcend it, says our putative bigot, but a few of them, well, they're "JUST N's".

Similarly, in a sexist society women's worth is predicated on their sexuality. Her sexuality and her sexual status are considered to be definitive of her nature, and this is used to deny them the status of person or human being.

Anytime you use words or language that reduce women to that status, you're part of the problem.

You're just another dude with privilege reminding a woman that you don't like that when all is said and done, she's still just a whore.

And again, after appearing to concede you were wrong, here we are back on this whole schtick again.

256 The Left  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 4:13:57pm

re: #255 iceweasel


You're just another dude with privilege reminding a woman that you don't like that when all is said and done, she's still just a whore.

This should say, "when you do this, you're just another etc".
PIMF.

257 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 4:17:58pm

re: #255 iceweasel

And by defending the abuses of women in this regard you are also part of the problem I am referring to by pretending it does not exist.

258 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 4:18:28pm

re: #257 LudwigVanQuixote

PIMF

And by defending the abuses of SOME women in this regard you are also part of the problem I am referring to by pretending it does not exist.

259 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 4:20:40pm

re: #255 iceweasel

Ludwig, you changed the example and continue to miss the point. You can't call women sluts or whores because in a sexist society women are held to be ONLY sluts and whores.

Not in my society. Most of the women I know are scientists, academics, historians, writers, artists and rebbitzens.

America is better than you give it credit for.

Now what we should agree on is that the Fox women fill the red state view of women to a T though. And they perpetuate the very stereotypes we both abhor. That alone makes them bad people.

260 The Left  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 4:26:59pm

re: #257 LudwigVanQuixote

And by defending the abuses of women in this regard you are also part of the problem I am referring to by pretending it does not exist.

What problem, Ludwig? You keep changing your mind about what your problem IS! Everytime someone objects to one point, you're off claiming you meant something else.

The problem *I've* been addressing, and you keep refusing to engage with-- and defending! after backtracking yesterday-- is your insistence that it's somehow not sexist and degrading for you to use sexist and degrading terms for women *you don't like*.

Now you appear to want to claim that you were using those words to draw attention to --what, exactly? The plight of women on Fox News?

As pointed out on the other thread, every single excuse you gave for using those words has been shot down.

Wrenchwench made a good post on your thread about some of the other issues people are having understanding whatever the point is that you wish to be making. I think it's worth you thinking about.

261 The Left  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 4:29:40pm

re: #259 LudwigVanQuixote

Not in my society. Most of the women I know are scientists, academics, historians, writers, artists and rebbitzens.

For fuck's sake. In a sexist society women are reductively defined by their sexuality by those who wish to degrade them and remind them of their 'lesser' status.

This is exactly what you're doing when you call the women on Fox those name. Exactly.

262 The Left  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 4:36:06pm

"Most of the women I know are academics! If they get a job at Fox News, then it would be okay to call them gutter sluts! Because that's what they'd be!"

WTF! Listen to yourself! Replace one of these rants with "pelosi", or "hillary" and you sound exactly like the worst of the right wing!

Just stop. Please.

263 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 4:36:36pm

re: #260 iceweasel

NO I haven't changed one bit. My very first post on the matter had multiple points. All of those points actually intersect and are facets of the same issue.

Please, read the first post. I was really elaborate about what I was talking about.


In the end I am opposed to manipulation of people into hurting themselves or others. Sexuality is very good at being used that way. The Fox women were one example.

Then everything went non-linear in response to how I described them.

I reject your assertion that using a negative word for a woman means it implies all women. Not one bit.

Not all women do this stuff in this way. Not all men do either. However, the larger structure of manipulation is ever present. It is done by both sexes. It leads to very bad things. It is always wrong.

OK...

Not all men are only think of one thing. This is a great example of your point and one of mine intersecting. Fox news assumes that all men are that way and will be that dumb implicitly in their approach. I find that insulting. I was pretty clear about that too.

I was also pretty clear at how disgusted I am at the men on whom it does work.

Those types of guys are throwbacks who only think with their peckers. That is not a good thing. It is rather the male analog of the sorts of women I am describing because they both need each other to finish the cycle.

264 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 4:38:38pm

re: #262 iceweasel

"Most of the women I know are academics! If they get a job at Fox News, then it would be okay to call them gutter sluts! Because that's what they'd be!"

WTF! Listen to yourself! Replace one of these rants with "pelosi", or "hillary" and you sound exactly like the worst of the right wing!

Just stop. Please.

NO no not at all. Please think through what I am saying. Hilary or Pelosi doesn't sit around a couch in a mini-skirt, constantly in danger of a crotch shot, on the air, while she shows off her legs. It's the damn Fox uniform.

There is no comparison.

265 Aye Pod  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 4:38:48pm

Here are two of the top female news presenters/anchors in the UK - Emily Maitliss and Kirsty Wark, broadcasting in the dreaded min-skirt:

Image: KirstyWark440.jpg

Image: _46283905_bbcdisco1.jpg

Mini-skirts - not the badge of sluttishness that you would have us believe, Ludwig.

266 The Left  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 4:41:16pm

re: #263 LudwigVanQuixote


I reject your assertion that using a negative word for a woman means it implies all women. Not one bit.

Can you explain how this is any different from the white guy who says "just because I think Obama is an n word doesn't mean all black people are"?

I'll make it easy for you. You can't, Ludwig.

267 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 4:42:29pm

re: #265 Jimmah

Here are two of the top female news presenters/anchors in the UK - Emily Maitliss and Kirsty Wark, broadcasting in the dreaded min-skirt:

Image: KirstyWark440.jpg

Image: _46283905_bbcdisco1.jpg

Mini-skirts - not the badge of sluttishness that you would have us believe, Ludwig.

It's wrong when they do it too. But Fox does it much worse.

Jimmah, it is not just the skirt it is the camera angle. In general I am not opposed to mini-skirts either. Please, I beg you stop, just stop and actually look at the way Fox presents its women and compare to the other major American networks and it is obvious.

268 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 4:45:16pm

re: #266 iceweasel

Can you explain how this is any different from the white guy who says "just because I think Obama is an n word doesn't mean all black people are"?

I'll make it easy for you. You can't, Ludwig.


A black person can not help but be black. A slur against all black people is utter wrong for any use. No black person is excluded when it is used.

I'll make it easier for you. That is a false analogy. I am disappointed you could say something so stupid.

A black person can not help but be black.

Some women really are prostitutes. They have the choice not to be.

269 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 4:46:48pm

re: #268 LudwigVanQuixote

Elaboration

A black person can not help but be black. A slur against all black people is utter wrong for any use. No black person is excluded when it is used. Further there is nothing wrong with being black.

I'll make it easier for you. That is a false analogy. I am disappointed you could say something so stupid.


Some women really are prostitutes. They have the choice not to be. And there is something wrong with being a prostitute.

270 Aye Pod  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 4:49:54pm

re: #267 LudwigVanQuixote

It's wrong when they do it too. But Fox does it much worse.

Jimmah, it is not just the skirt it is the camera angle. In general I am not opposed to mini-skirts either. Please, I beg you stop, just stop and actually look at the way Fox presents its women and compare to the other major American networks and it is obvious.

Thats the first time you've mentioned camera angles. I'm just trying to deal with the points you've actually raised.

I have to say, I haven't seen the camera angles you just mentioned either. In any case that would be another criticism of Fox at the production level, it wouldn't justify bearing down on the presenters themselves with the kind of puritanical language you have employed in this discussion.

271 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 4:52:33pm

re: #270 Jimmah

Thats the first time you've mentioned camera angles. I'm just trying to deal with the points you've actually raised.

I have to say, I haven't seen the camera angles you just mentioned either. In any case that would be another criticism of Fox at the production level, it wouldn't justify bearing down on the presenters themselves with the kind of puritanical language you have employed in this discussion.

Some of them have quite because they didn't like having cameras pointed at their crotches.

Check this out for yourself. The truly scummy way this video is put together only adds to my point on the matter.

272 The Left  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 4:55:39pm

re: #269 LudwigVanQuixote

Elaboration

A black person can not help but be black. A slur against all black people is utter wrong for any use. No black person is excluded when it is used. Further there is nothing wrong with being black.

I'll make it easier for you. That is a false analogy. I am disappointed you could say something so stupid.

Some women really are prostitutes. They have the choice not to be. And there is something wrong with being a prostitute.

FAIL

273 Aye Pod  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 4:57:44pm

re: #267 LudwigVanQuixote

It's wrong when they do it too.

No, it is NOT wrong for a professional woman to dress in a way that she feels makes her look good - what IS wrong here is you telling women that they shouldn't do so because of the oddly puritanical views that you hold regarding certain items of clothing.

274 M. Dubious  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 4:58:09pm

Hey, if the one part ceases to refer to women as sluts and whores, and the other part agrees that FOX has nasty camera angles, we have a resolution.

275 The Left  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 4:59:49pm

re: #268 LudwigVanQuixote

A black person can not help but be black. A slur against all black people is utter wrong for any use. No black person is excluded when it is used.

I'll make it easier for you. That is a false analogy. I am disappointed you could say something so stupid.

A black person can not help but be black.

Some women really are prostitutes. They have the choice not to be.

Ludwig, for someone who insists he isn't a misogynist you're doing a bangup imitation.

276 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 5:00:42pm

re: #272 iceweasel

FAIL

Wait a minute, I point out that your false analogy is an utterly false analogy and all you can type is FAIL?

OK, I think we all need to step back a bit if it is getting this intense. I do love you and Jimmah I really do. But this is getting to be too much and I have some work I need to be doing. Accept that you have the victory of my not wanting to offend with certain words, so I have refrained.

As to the ideological struggle accept that this is one place where we simply do not agree.

277 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 5:01:45pm
278 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 5:02:56pm

re: #274 harald

Hey mate, didja just come in here lookin for a fight?

279 Aye Pod  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 5:04:12pm

re: #271 LudwigVanQuixote

Some of them have quite because they didn't like having cameras pointed at their crotches.

That just proves my second point:

In any case that would be another criticism of Fox at the production level

Yes, by all means lambast Fox News for tackiness, but no matter what way you look at it, Ludwig, there is no excuse for calling the women sluts, and doing so doesn't make you look good.

280 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 5:05:07pm

re: #277 LudwigVanQuixote

My apologies for number 277. THAT was out of line.

Let me rephrase it.

NO no no. That was really a nasty comment Ice.

281 The Left  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 5:05:21pm

I've had it. Ludwig, you need a remedial course in feminism.re: #276 LudwigVanQuixote

Wait a minute, I point out that your false analogy is an utterly false analogy and all you can type is FAIL?

ludwig, it is NOT a false analogy simply because YOU reject it!

You haven't answered the question, either.
And I don't have time to give you a remedial course in feminism and privilege now. Especially as even now, you want to go back and insist on your right to call the women you don't like by sexually demeaning names. That is no better than the 'better bigot' who decides to refer to only 'some' black people with racist epithets-- you are claiming your right to use sexist, misogysnistic insults against the women you don't like.

And there isn't any more to discuss with someone who is reduced to posting Pink videos to 'explain his objection'.

282 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 5:05:58pm

I should take my own advice. I am getting too frustrated by this. I should walk away and get some work done. I am truly sorry for getting angry.

283 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 5:06:31pm
284 Aye Pod  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 5:07:09pm

re: #277 LudwigVanQuixote

NO no no. That was really a nasty comment Ice.

Fuck you sideways.

Bitch.

No, ice's comment was what a shorthand version of what we've ALL been trying to tell you, nicely and as patiently as possible. And you've responded by melting down in a truly obnoxious manner.

Fuck off and get yourself sorted out.

285 Gus  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 5:08:19pm

What the fuck is going on in here?

Ludwig, knock it off. That's uncalled for.

286 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 5:09:17pm

I was hoping everyone would get this sorted out, but it's apparently not to be. I hope you all know where I stand with using derogatory language against women.

LVQ is on timeout. That last comment was over the line.

287 M. Dubious  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 5:09:18pm

re: #278 ozbloke

Hey mate, didja just come in here lookin for a fight?

Nope. Just lurking in the bar. But bottles are flying.

288 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 5:09:23pm

re: #267 LudwigVanQuixote

It's wrong when they do it too. But Fox does it much worse.

Jimmah, it is not just the skirt it is the camera angle. In general I am not opposed to mini-skirts either. Please, I beg you stop, just stop and actually look at the way Fox presents its women and compare to the other major American networks and it is obvious.

In what context is it "wrong"? And by whose judgement?

289 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 5:10:16pm

re: #285 Gus 802

What the fuck is going on in here?

Ludwig, knock it off. That's uncalled for.

Okey doke, noted.

290 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 5:11:12pm

re: #287 harald

Hope its not good aussie beer.

291 The Left  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 5:16:20pm

re: #286 Charles

I was hoping everyone would get this sorted out, but it's apparently not to be. I hope you all know where I stand with using derogatory language against women.

LVQ is on timeout. That last comment was over the line.

Thanks. Apologies for quoting it.

I think it will all be sorted out. This has been an ongoing discussion obviously and tempers get hot. My apologies for my part in that as well.

292 Aye Pod  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 5:19:28pm

Anyone else posting some of the things Ludwig came out with in the course of this discussion - right from his first input - would have been savaged without mercy. His comments would have dominated the bottom 10. He needs to realise the lengths people went to to try to not fall out with him over this, and also realise just how out of line he was with this.

293 bratwurst  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 5:22:54pm

re: #263 LudwigVanQuixote


I reject your assertion that using a negative word for a woman means it implies all women. Not one bit.

So if I called one black person the n-word, would you accept my excuse that I do not mean mean to imply that all black people are the n-word?

294 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 5:35:04pm

Well, that's one way to kill a thread.

A note about timeouts.

295 Interesting Times  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 5:52:20pm

re: #293 bratwurst

So if I called one black person the n-word, would you accept my excuse that I do not mean mean to imply that all black people are the n-word?

Now that the dust is settling and I may even be safe removing my flame-retardant lurking cloak, I'd just like to address the following possible "comeback" to your argument:

"Black people can't control being black, but women can control being prostitutes. So what do you call a woman who's a prostitute?"

My answer? You call her a prostitute. Or a sex worker. Not a whore, streetwalker, or slut. Even if one doesn't think these terms demean women as a whole, they still demean and dehumanize prostitutes (thus making it easier to do heinous things like engage in violence against them or minimize it when it occurs).

Now, what do you call a woman who uses sexuality as a means to promote an evil agenda? Exactly what you could call a man encouraging her to do so - cynical, sleazy, crude and exploitative.

You can use strong language to condemn awful behaviors (and awful people) that doesn't at the same time dehumanize or degrade unintended targets.

296 CuriousLurker  Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:35:03pm

re: #233 LudwigVanQuixote

In the English Language, a woman who uses her sexuality to manipulate men for her own selfish or evil aims is a?

An evil, manipulative, selfish woman.
Deceitful. Contemptible. Ignoble. Mercenary. Unscrupulous...

297 wrenchwench  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:37:56am

re: #296 CuriousLurker

An evil, manipulative, selfish woman.
Deceitful. Contemptible. Ignoble. Mercenary. Unscrupulous...

Maybe we should chip in for a thesaurus...

298 The Left  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:52:33am

re: #295 publicityStunted

This is excellent, and I want to add to it what Obdicut posted in the other thread:

even just the word 'whore' makes me, in general, cringe. Because most women who are whores are not doing so because they have a real choice in the matter. Many of them are simply prisoner. Many of them are coerced and threatened if they try to leave. Many of them are addicts in a society that criminalizes their addiction. So calling someone a whore, as an insult, makes no sense.

And there simply is no such thing as a slut. It's only meaning is "Woman who has sex or uses her sexuality in a way I personally don't like". It has no other meaning.

Also, what I said:

Words like slut and whore are words that are used to 'put women in their place'. They're loaded because they're intended to be. They don't, in fact, have any other meaning than to reduce women to their (supposed) sexual nature.

and:

So calling someone a whore, as an insult, makes no sense.

That IS the sense: To remind the woman in question that when all is said and done, she's nothing more than a sexual function: the function of providing sex to men.

They're degrading and depersonalising and specifically gendered.

I am sorry that Ludwig is on timeout, but I do think this was a perfect example of --as charles posted-- the point of the timeout function: Not to shame or humiliate or 'punish', but to stop someone when it gets to the point that bad positions are being defended simply because the internet worm is hungry.

I have avoided this issue for a few months now when it comes up. I made a page about a female politican being called a whore a few months ago and it likewise was invaded by defenses of that term. I simply didn't respond.

I emailed LVQ last night to say I have no hard feelings about the final comment but I haven't heard back.

299 The Left  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:59:52am

I think all these do a good job of summarising the problems with using those words. I'm crossposting because it's raged over two pages and then invaded here, and i want to apologise for my part in contributing to derailing this thread. Also so that ludwig can see it in case he doesn't check email before he comes back, in hopes that this also defuses the issue.

300 CuriousLurker  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 9:47:14am

re: #297 wrenchwench

Maybe we should chip in for a thesaurus...

Heh, I used thesaurus.com to come up with some of those.

301 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 11:22:24am

I have a confession to make, I like the term hussy, huss, or elle husserino "if you're not into the whole brevity thing." Not all the time mind you, you've got to measure it, dole it out on extra special occasions, like saffron. It sits right on the edge of being genuinely insulting and completely hilarious.

I know, I'm not helping.


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 Frank says:

I think "when" is a very important thing, but "what the f*ck!" is also a very important thing to ask. Just keep asking "what the f*ck?" I mean, why the f*ck bother? See what i mean? The important thing is, deal with the "when". "When" will open a lot of shit for you. "What the f*ck" really makes it easier to deal with it when you understand the "when".