Jon Stewart and Larry Wilmore: The South’s Secession Commemoration
Humor • Views: 25,971
344 comments
1 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Fri, Dec 10, 2010 5:23:17pm |
“Liberty” means something very different to these folks. Reminds me of the groups named Liberty Lobby.
| 2 |
darthstar Fri, Dec 10, 2010 5:27:15pm |
“Saying slavery was the cause for secession isn’t politically correct, it’s CORRECT correct.”
Fuck yeah.
| 3 |
darthstar Fri, Dec 10, 2010 5:28:30pm |
Heh…”and noone’s saying you invented slavery, but you did hold onto it like a motherfucker.”
| 4 |
Charleston Chew Fri, Dec 10, 2010 5:30:41pm |
“…this noble time in our history…”
Noble isn’t the word I would choose to describe this:
| 6 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Fri, Dec 10, 2010 5:31:57pm |
Seems like the secessionists never had a problem with a strong Federal government as long as it meant their laws got reinforced.
| 7 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Fri, Dec 10, 2010 5:32:06pm |
I know many people will find the analogy by Ed Sebesta to be over the top.
Still.
[Link: web.archive.org…]
| 8 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 10, 2010 5:32:22pm |
O)n the plus side, the Florida SCV plan to hold a secession re-enactment at the freakin’ statehouse has fallen through. (This is a link to Google cache image, not the nest of secession’s website.)
[Link: webcache.googleusercontent.com…]
| 10 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Fri, Dec 10, 2010 5:34:19pm |
“We don’t focus on that aspect of it.”
| 12 |
What, me worry? Fri, Dec 10, 2010 5:39:45pm |
re: #8 Decatur Deb
O)n the plus side, the Florida SCV plan to hold a secession re-enactment at the freakin’ statehouse has fallen through. (This is a link to Google cache image, not the nest of secession’s website.)
[Link: webcache.googleusercontent.com…]
Hmmm…. wait till Rick Scott takes the governor’s mansion :(
| 13 |
Idle Drifter Fri, Dec 10, 2010 5:41:20pm |
Nothing says massive blood letting like civil war.
| 15 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 10, 2010 5:42:48pm |
re: #13 Idle Drifter
Nothing says massive blood letting like civil war.
Gotta keep watering those trees.
| 16 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Dec 10, 2010 5:43:41pm |
The historian James McPherson gives us the more careful chapter and verse proof that it was a war for slavery. Worse yet, if that be possible, the war aims of the south extended to securing for slavery a wider empire, not just “Dixie from Texas to Virginia.”
Giving credit where it’s due, in that the south did show streaks of military genius and gallantry in combat, and that with a few exceptions, conducted the war with a civility that was missing from later struggles such as WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and generally war, the cause itself, the war aim, was foul.
This greatly complicates the business of remembering the war. But maybe that’s all wars. If we could remember them as they really were, and in Heinlein’s formulation, grok them, they’d break our hearts. So we dress them up in parades and put words such as “victory” on mutual slaughters that made the creeks literally run red with blood. And we are at risk of forgetting, too, that all that bloodshed, in all its horror, was the less bad alternative. A future blighted by slavery, stretching on and on, til who knew when, and ending with what slaughter? That was the more bad alternative.
Remember, then, and honor the Northern soldiers who marched into those infernos, knowing that they were out-generalled more often than not, because the future of their country hung on them doing it.
| 17 |
sizzleRI Fri, Dec 10, 2010 5:44:02pm |
re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
From all I’ve been able to understand, no one minds when its their laws being enforced. And everyone minds when it when its their ox being gored.
So it was and so it shall be.
| 18 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 10, 2010 5:44:18pm |
re: #1 Sergey Romanov
“Liberty” means something very different to these folks. Reminds me of the groups named Liberty Lobby.
They loved liberty so much they wanted to keep it all for themselves.
| 19 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 5:44:49pm |
re: #15 Decatur Deb
Gotta keep watering those trees.
yeah baby…Euro style warfare…line ‘em up and slaughter away
| 20 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 5:46:45pm |
re: #16 lostlakehiker
The historian James McPherson gives us the more careful chapter and verse proof that it was a war for slavery. Worse yet, if that be possible, the war aims of the south extended to securing for slavery a wider empire, not just “Dixie from Texas to Virginia.”
Giving credit where it’s due, in that the south did show streaks of military genius and gallantry in combat, and that with a few exceptions, conducted the war with a civility that was missing from later struggles such as WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and generally war, the cause itself, the war aim, was foul.
This greatly complicates the business of remembering the war. But maybe that’s all wars. If we could remember them as they really were, and in Heinlein’s formulation, grok them, they’d break our hearts. So we dress them up in parades and put words such as “victory” on mutual slaughters that made the creeks literally run red with blood. And we are at risk of forgetting, too, that all that bloodshed, in all its horror, was the less bad alternative. A future blighted by slavery, stretching on and on, til who knew when, and ending with what slaughter? That was the more bad alternative.
Remember, then, and honor the Northern soldiers who marched into those infernos, knowing that they were out-generalled more often than not, because the future of their country hung on them doing it.
Glorietta Pass….if the rebels were not stopped there, slavery might have extended all the way to CA….a piece of history tossed into the dustpan
| 21 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Fri, Dec 10, 2010 5:46:55pm |
There was this mockumentary, C.S.A.: The Confederate States of America, which made some very poignant points. Apparently it’s fully at YT. Here’s a trailer:
| 22 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Dec 10, 2010 5:50:07pm |
“northern congressmen were able to vote themselves virtually anything they wanted, using southern tax money”
EXCEPT SLAVES!
| 24 |
wee fury Fri, Dec 10, 2010 5:52:09pm |
re: #13 Idle Drifter
Nothing says massive blood letting like civil war.
Destination DC has an interesting link. I enjoyed the short video.[Link: washington.org…]
| 25 |
What, me worry? Fri, Dec 10, 2010 5:52:26pm |
re: #7 Sergey Romanov
I’m confused. It’s fictional, yes? You can’t show a swastika in Germany and, what…. 14 other countries? And I’m fine with that in those countries.
If we’re talking about revisionist history, that’s something everyone has to fight against, be it German or the U.S.A. Israel has to fight twice as hard as anyone.
Today, Germany doesn’t have to be associated with Hitler and I suspect most are working not to be.
| 26 |
compound idaho Fri, Dec 10, 2010 5:53:36pm |
re: #22 Shiplord Kirel
All wars are fought by young men that are not vested in the grand ideologies written in history books. Sad. Sad.
| 27 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Fri, Dec 10, 2010 5:54:50pm |
re: #25 marjoriemoon
I’m confused. It’s fictional, yes? You can’t show a swastika in Germany and, what… 14 other countries? And I’m fine with that in those countries.
If we’re talking about revisionist history, that’s something everyone has to fight against, be it German or the U.S.A. Israel has to fight twice as hard as anyone.
Today, Germany doesn’t have to be associated with Hitler and I suspect most are working not to be.
That’s the point. Why is it that to celebrate Southern heritage these folks remember warmly about the CSA, display the Confederate flag, try to whitewash the secession etc.?
| 28 |
b_sharp Fri, Dec 10, 2010 5:55:49pm |
re: #16 lostlakehiker
Giving credit where it’s due, in that the south did show streaks of military genius and gallantry in combat, and that with a few exceptions, conducted the war with a civility that was missing from later struggles such as WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and generally war, the cause itself, the war aim, was foul.
The closer you have to be to kill someone, the more civility. It’s tougher to kill someone when you can look into their eyes and see their humanity than it is to push a button and kill masses of nameless, soulless, unknowns.
| 29 |
b_sharp Fri, Dec 10, 2010 5:57:32pm |
re: #25 marjoriemoon
I’m confused. It’s fictional, yes? You can’t show a swastika in Germany and, what… 14 other countries? And I’m fine with that in those countries.
If we’re talking about revisionist history, that’s something everyone has to fight against, be it German or the U.S.A. Israel has to fight twice as hard as anyone.
Today, Germany doesn’t have to be associated with Hitler and I suspect most are working not to be.
Germany is working hard to be associated with porn.
| 30 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Dec 10, 2010 5:58:11pm |
Some relevant LGF pages from earlier this year
Book Review - Baptized in Blood: The Religion of the Lost Cause, 1865-1920, by Charles Reagan Wilson
| 31 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 10, 2010 5:58:49pm |
re: #29 b_sharp
Germany is working hard to be associated with porn.
How can you write porn in a language that uses “bustenhalter” for “bra”?
| 32 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Dec 10, 2010 5:59:26pm |
re: #26 compound idaho
All wars are fought by young men that are not vested in the grand ideologies written in history books. Sad. Sad.
I would be more aware of that than most, but I don’t understand your point.
| 33 |
b_sharp Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:01:42pm |
re: #31 Decatur Deb
How can you write porn in a language that uses “bustenhalter” for “bra”?
You don’t write porn, you do it.
| 34 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:02:15pm |
re: #31 Decatur Deb
How can you write porn in a language that uses “bustenhalter” for “bra”?
Er riess ihre Bustenhalter von die Brueste. Sie schrie, Mehr, mehr. K"uss mich, k'uss mich wie niemals fr"uher. Ich bin dein. Nim mir.
Like that. //hackery haeckerei, it translates easily. The stuff writes itself.
| 35 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:03:14pm |
re: #34 lostlakehiker
Like that. //hackery haeckerei, it translates easily. The stuff writes itself.
Like opera, it would sound better in Italian.
| 36 |
b_sharp Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:04:03pm |
re: #34 lostlakehiker
Like that. //hackery haeckerei, it translates easily. The stuff writes itself.
I wish I could speak and write in a language.
| 37 |
prairiefire Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:04:34pm |
This is the Confederate Monument in down town Augusta, GA.[Link: www.flickr.com…]
“No nation rose so white
and fair
and none fell so pure of crime”
| 38 |
b_sharp Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:05:51pm |
re: #37 prairiefire
This is the Confederate Monument in down town Augusta, GA.[Link: www.flickr.com…]
“No nation rose so white
and fair
and none fell so pure of crime”
Oh, for fuck sakes!
| 39 |
What, me worry? Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:06:49pm |
re: #27 Sergey Romanov
That’s the point. Why is it that to celebrate Southern heritage these folks remember warmly about the CSA, display the Confederate flag, try to whitewash the secession etc.?
You have to remain vigilant, meaning the truth has to be told accurately so hopefully, it’s not repeated. The bad parts, anyway. We think 60 years is a long time? 250 years, we’re still going over this in the U.S. We can’t rewrite history even if some wish to do that.
| 41 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:07:55pm |
Here’s Ed Sebesta’s blog about neo-Confederates.
Sebesta is a published scholar on the topic.
[Link: newtknight.blogspot.com…]
| 42 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:07:56pm |
re: #37 prairiefire
This is the Confederate Monument in down town Augusta, GA.[Link: www.flickr.com…]
“No nation rose so white
and fair
and none fell so pure of crime”
“For the Principles of the Union”
Lies in stone.
| 43 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:09:18pm |
re: #41 Sergey Romanov
Here’s Ed Sebesta’s blog about neo-Confederates.
Sebesta is a published scholar on the topic.
[Link: newtknight.blogspot.com…]
They surround me.
| 44 |
What, me worry? Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:09:43pm |
re: #37 prairiefire
This is the Confederate Monument in down town Augusta, GA.[Link: www.flickr.com…]
“No nation rose so white
and fair
and none fell so pure of crime”
Oh keep reading.
who gave themselves in life
and Death for us:
for the Rights of the States,
for the Liberties of the People,
for the Sentiments of the South,
for the Principles of the Union
as these were handed down to
them by the fathers of
OUR COMMON COUNTRY
Written in 1878? My goodness.
| 45 |
b_sharp Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:09:56pm |
re: #39 marjoriemoon
You have to remain vigilant, meaning the truth has to be told accurately so hopefully, it’s not repeated. The bad parts, anyway. We think 60 years is a long time? 250 years, we’re still going over this in the U.S. We can’t rewrite history even if some wish to do that.
History is rewritten all the time, that’s the problem.
| 46 |
wee fury Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:10:09pm |
The South attempts to re-write history because … today’s southerners (many whose relatives who fought in the Civil War) do not want to be seen as racist or of condoning/pardoning slavery. Therefore, “The war was fought because of taxation.” — or some other fabrication. History fuzzily re-written.
| 47 |
sizzleRI Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:11:23pm |
re: #27 Sergey Romanov
To answer that all I can say it is complicated. My mom’s family has lived in Tennessee for 200 years. My grandmother did genealogy on our family, in fact it was her dissertation for her Ph.D. And she showed me all of our family from the civil war. Tennessee was a border state so it was brother against brother. Fathers on one side and some of their sons on the other. Up here in new England it is just history, pretty dry at that. Down there it is not. When I go down there spontaneous conversations will occur about where everyone’s relatives (not ancestors yet) fought and maybe died. It is still very real. I keep quiet mostly, because they just will not listen when you say it was mostly about slavery. I think sometimes now it is because they have been raised on all the memories of glory and blood and cruelty of the north and they just will not admit that the south was in the wrong.
| 48 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:11:43pm |
re: #41 Sergey Romanov
The link I found there:
[Link: www.retouchinghistory.org…]
Retouching History:
The Modern Falsification of a Civil War Photograph
Jerome S. Handler and Michael L. Tuite, Jr.This website discusses a Civil War-era posed studio photograph of unidentified black Union soldiers with a white officer. This photograph was the basis for a well-known poster used by the Federal army to recruit black soldiers in the Philadelphia area. The studio photograph has been deliberately falsified in recent years by an unknown person/s sympathetic to the Confederacy. This falsified or fabricated photo, purporting to be of the 1st Louisiana Native Guards (Confederate), has been taken to promote Neo-Confederate views, to accuse Union propagandists of duplicity, and to show that black soldiers were involved in the armed defense of the Confederacy. Here we provide background to the original Civil War-era photograph and discuss why we believe its modern copy is a falsification; we also detail our conjectures as to how this falsification was accomplished.
| 49 |
prairiefire Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:12:04pm |
re: #38 b_sharp
Oh, for fuck sakes!
I stood and watched as a young black man walked around the monument, reading. I think he thought the same thing, by the expression on his face.
| 50 |
What, me worry? Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:15:28pm |
re: #48 Sergey Romanov
The link I found there:
[Link: www.retouchinghistory.org…]
Before you signed on to LGF, we’ve had long discussions about the so-called existence of Black confederate soldiers. It was a lie. I’ll have to try to find those threads.
| 51 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:16:45pm |
Uh. Oh. Lincoln was a Commie.
[Link: newtknight.blogspot.com…]
One of the cover articles for the March/April 2008 issue of the Southern Mercury is “Republican Party: Red From the Start,” by Alan Stang, ( [Link: www.alanstang.com…] and the article asserts that the Republican party was a communist conspiracy from the beginning. [Southern Mercury, Vol. 6 No. 2, March/April 2008, pages 26-29.]
The article is a review of “Red Republicans: Marxism in the Civil War and Lincoln’s Marxists,” by Al Benson and Walter D. Kennedy, leading neo-Confederate. ([Link: olesouthbooks.com…] or ([Link: www.newswithviews.com…] It is a book that asserts that there was some type of communist conspiracy. As Stang explains [Page 27]:
“Even a brief perusal through Red Republicans will verify the idea that the Republican party has been Communist since its inception.”
Another excerpts from page 27:
“… Lee and Jackson did not fully comprehend what they were fighting. Had this really been a ‘Civil’ War, rather than a secession, they would and could easily have seized Washington after Manassas and hanged our first Communist President and the other war criminals.”
| 52 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:19:00pm |
So Obama is not your second Communist President and Ike is not the first.
///
| 53 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:20:28pm |
Oh, and of course:
Somehow this leads to Alan Stang discussing that Ron Paul isn’t a communist, but has to run as a Republican and but that Ron Paul is against Red Republicanism. Dr. Paul is alleged to be a true Democrat but not a modern communist Democrat as he explains on page 29.“Dr. Paul is much more a traditional Democrat. I refer of course to the Democrat Party before the Communist takeover, which began with the election of Woodrow (Federal Reserve -Income Tax-World War I) Wilson and was consummated with the election of liar, swindler, thief, traitor, and mass murderer Franklin Delano Roosevelt.”
| 54 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:20:59pm |
It all makes sense now.
| 55 |
b_sharp Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:21:48pm |
re: #52 Sergey Romanov
So Obama is not your second Communist President and Ike is not the first.
///
Damn commies are leaking out of the walls.
| 56 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:22:12pm |
| 57 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:22:43pm |
Since the collapse of the Soviets and the seduction of the Chinese, it’s just us and Fidel.
| 58 |
Nemesis6 Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:25:54pm |
The rednecks who say that the South will rise again will have to themselves first rise off of their sisters and cousins.
| 59 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:26:08pm |
from the last thread regarding shell oil collusion in murder: [Link: www.telegraph.co.uk…]
| 60 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:27:12pm |
re: #47 sizzleRI
To answer that all I can say it is complicated. My mom’s family has lived in Tennessee for 200 years. My grandmother did genealogy on our family, in fact it was her dissertation for her Ph.D. And she showed me all of our family from the civil war. Tennessee was a border state so it was brother against brother. Fathers on one side and some of their sons on the other. Up here in new England it is just history, pretty dry at that. Down there it is not. When I go down there spontaneous conversations will occur about where everyone’s relatives (not ancestors yet) fought and maybe died. It is still very real. I keep quiet mostly, because they just will not listen when you say it was mostly about slavery. I think sometimes now it is because they have been raised on all the memories of glory and blood and cruelty of the north and they just will not admit that the south was in the wrong.
facts versus emotion and family, facts usually lose
| 61 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:27:35pm |
re: #47 sizzleRI
To answer that all I can say it is complicated. My mom’s family has lived in Tennessee for 200 years. My grandmother did genealogy on our family, in fact it was her dissertation for her Ph.D. And she showed me all of our family from the civil war. Tennessee was a border state so it was brother against brother. Fathers on one side and some of their sons on the other. Up here in new England it is just history, pretty dry at that. Down there it is not. When I go down there spontaneous conversations will occur about where everyone’s relatives (not ancestors yet) fought and maybe died. It is still very real. I keep quiet mostly, because they just will not listen when you say it was mostly about slavery. I think sometimes now it is because they have been raised on all the memories of glory and blood and cruelty of the north and they just will not admit that the south was in the wrong.
Humph. My mother’s got stashed away a letter from a Tennessee preacher ancestor to one of his relatives, circa 1855. He brings up the evil of slavery and writes that it can come to no good end.
Nobody listened then either, of course. Well, too few. The letter would not have been written if no one was going to read it.
| 62 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:27:54pm |
re: #27 Sergey Romanov
That’s the point. Why is it that to celebrate Southern heritage these folks remember warmly about the CSA, display the Confederate flag, try to whitewash the secession etc.?
north versus south, the adversarial culture of it never went away
| 63 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:28:39pm |
re: #62 WindUpBird
Doesn’t excuse them.
| 65 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:30:25pm |
re: #51 Sergey Romanov
Uh. Oh. Lincoln was a Commie.
[Link: newtknight.blogspot.com…]
Robert Lewis Dabney, a favorite of Lost Cause advocates, made just that assertion in his 1866 biography of Stonewall Jackson. Dabney is a favorite of Robert Stacey McCain as well, it would seem.
*spoilers*
“Confederacy wins” is easily the number 1 theme of alternate history writers. Even Winston Churchill tried his hand at it. My favorite example though is Harry Turtledove’s monumental (11 volume) Timeline 191 series. Only the prologue deals with the Civil War itself. The rest follows the increasingly divergent history of the dis-united states until the final cataclysmic showdown in the 1940s. In this series, a defeated and discredited (but still living) Abe Lincoln really does become a Marxist in the 1870s and 80s.
With only a few exceptions, alt-history writes portray the world as worse off for the Confederate victory. Turtledove’s series takes that farther than most.
| 66 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:32:27pm |
re: #65 Shiplord Kirel
Robert Lewis Dabney, a favorite of Lost Cause advocates, made just that assertion in his 1866 biography of Stonewall Jackson. Dabney is a favorite of Robert Stacey McCain as well, it would seem.
Interesting, thanks. I wrote about Dabney in my expose of McCain and I’ve immensely enjoyed his Biblical defense of slavery [don’t get it wrong, please], but this bit I didn’t know.
| 67 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:32:34pm |
Robert Stacy McCain’s tortured attempt to explain the neo-Confederate viewpoint:
[Link: theothermccain.com…]
| 68 |
Varek Raith Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:34:48pm |
re: #67 Charles
Robert Stacy McCain’s tortured attempt to explain the neo-Confederate viewpoint:
[Link: theothermccain.com…]
Freaking hell, the comments are just as bad as McCain’s post.
| 69 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:36:00pm |
re: #67 Charles
Does a visit to his site help him in any measurable way? I’m still boycotting grapes.
| 70 |
webevintage Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:37:24pm |
My husband’s family owned slaves and a few guys fought/died in the civil war.
I like to tell my BIL who does, yes, Civil War reenactments that they were all a bunch of traitors…..
That really gets him going.
(though BIL is not a TeaGOP type. This is a family of Southern Democrats who would never….never….vote for Republicans.)
| 71 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:39:25pm |
“… Lee and Jackson did not fully comprehend what they were fighting. Had this really been a ‘Civil’ War, rather than a secession, they would and could easily have seized Washington after Manassas and hanged our first Communist President and the other war criminals.”
Yeah, right. The Yankees were licked for the day, not down for the count. Both armies were green, and green troops break and run very readily. They start at shadows. Green armies also lose cohesion quickly in combat and cannot be quickly reorganized and set in motion again. Planning is ponderous and orders miscarry.
The south was near as disorganized by its victory as the north by its defeat. The Northern army was far from shattered. It’s a simple matter for amateur historians to run the table with mighty victories. All that is required is an innocent disregard for the realities of war, the friction, the commotion and confusion of it all. The Army of Northern Virginia, as it stood in August 1862, might possibly have brought it off. But Lee had not yet risen to high command, nor had Jackson.
| 72 |
jaunte Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:39:57pm |
re: #67 Charles
“It may be that you feel that the cause of Southern independence was so misguided and wrong that Robert E. Lee and Stephen D. Lee should be regarded as traitors and villains.”
That’s as close as he dares get to the thought that ‘the cause’ was evil.
Another palaverous farrago of obscurantism.
| 73 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:40:12pm |
The Sons of Confederate Veterans are really doing their ancestors a disservice with this transparent revisionism. It isn’t necessary to justify the Confederacy to be able to honor those who fought for it.
After all, you don’t have to be a Nazi to honor German World War II veterans.
| 74 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:40:58pm |
re: #70 webevintage
This is a family of Southern Democrats who would never…never…vote for Republicans.
Heh, it was like that for many decades precisely because Lincoln was a republican. It’s interesting how things can change drastically over the course of time.
| 75 |
sizzleRI Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:41:23pm |
re: #61 lostlakehiker
My mom has a letter from a great great great? grandmother from about 1875. She was lamenting her loss of a house slave.
I was so proud./
| 76 |
Varek Raith Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:41:51pm |
re: #74 Slumbering Behemoth
Heh, it was like that for many decades precisely because Lincoln was a republican. It’s interesting how things can change drastically over the course of time.
Lincoln = RINO!!!
Jefferson = FFINO!!!
/
| 77 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:41:58pm |
My Standing Answer to Neo-Confederates:
| 78 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:44:02pm |
re: #77 Dark_Falcon
My Standing Answer to Neo-Confederates:
[Video]
They really, really have no love for Sherman.
| 79 |
What, me worry? Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:44:04pm |
re: #68 Varek Raith
Freaking hell, the comments are just as bad as McCain’s post.
And he has a “racism” tag. At least he’s got that right.
I don’t “hate the South.” Only those Southerners who think like RMS. We have lots of them here in S. Fla., too.
| 80 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:45:05pm |
re: #63 Sergey Romanov
Doesn’t excuse them.
oh hahaha dude, I don’t excuse them!
it’s just that I sort of throw up my hands and give up. these confederate apologists want to be willfully bestial and animal-like and retarded and pretend that their culture wasn’t propping up slavery, they’re fucking stupid and hopeless.
| 82 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:45:36pm |
re: #73 Shiplord Kirel
It isn’t necessary to justify the Confederacy to be able to honor those who fought for it.
Of course those with just enough perception can see that that their entire point is to justify the confederacy and “states rights”, while dressing it in the facade of honoring war veterans.
I know you know that. Just throwing that out there.
| 83 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:45:58pm |
| 84 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:46:03pm |
re: #78 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
They really, really have no love for Sherman.
neither do I…a maniac is generous
| 85 |
Varek Raith Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:46:27pm |
Watching the vid now.
Are these commercials for real?
Wow……………………..
*Speechless*
| 86 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:46:39pm |
re: #76 Varek Raith
I have to ask. FFINO?
| 87 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:46:41pm |
re: #78 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
They really, really have no love for Sherman.
I know, that’s why I always post that song when this issue comes up. While my mother was raised in the south, I’m a dyed-in-the-blue-wool Illinois Yankee and I always make clear where my sympathies lie.
| 88 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:46:41pm |
re: #79 marjoriemoon
And he has a “racism” tag. At least he’s got that right.
I don’t “hate the South.” Only those Southerners who think like RMS. We have lots of them here in S. Fla., too.
A lot of great shit comes from the south! favorite writers, favorite music. But the confederacy apology, I have zero tolerance for. I’m so glad I don’t have to tolerate anyone in my life who even comes close to believeing that slime.
| 89 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:47:01pm |
re: #73 Shiplord Kirel
The Sons of Confederate Veterans are really doing their ancestors a disservice with this transparent revisionism. It isn’t necessary to justify the Confederacy to be able to honor those who fought for it.
After all, you don’t have to be a Nazi to honor German World War II veterans.
I wouldn’t exactly honor them, but it’s only fair to remember that most of them were conscripts to the regular army. Of those that survived and later lived in W Germany, the pool I had a chance to meet, most were decent chaps. This one fellow I particular have in mind had commanded an antitank force of some half-dozen ‘88’s. His unit had destroyed hundreds of Soviet tanks; he himself, dozens. But this story only came out over the course of a week. Mostly he was just a gentle, unassuming landlord taking breakfast with the visitor/tenant, sharing grammar points such as it’s “das Ei, weil mann weiss ja noch nicht.”
This guy knew his side was going to lose. But surrender was an iffy business against the Russians, and the Nazi Sippenhaft laws made hostages of any officer’s family.
| 90 |
Varek Raith Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:47:04pm |
| 91 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:47:30pm |
Well, lots of the Japanese can tell you with a straight face that Pearl harbor was self-defense.
Don’t even try asking a regular Japanese person about the Korean “comfort” women. Or atrocities on the islands.
It’s the history they are taught.
| 92 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:47:59pm |
re: #85 Varek Raith
Watching the vid now.
Are these commercials for real?
Wow…
*Speechless*
Yeah, we had a thread about this a few months ago the the Sons of the Confederacy announced they bought time to air them on the History Channel.
| 93 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:48:00pm |
re: #71 lostlakehiker
Yeah, right. The Yankees were licked for the day, not down for the count. Both armies were green, and green troops break and run very readily. They start at shadows. Green armies also lose cohesion quickly in combat and cannot be quickly reorganized and set in motion again. Planning is ponderous and orders miscarry.
The south was near as disorganized by its victory as the north by its defeat. The Northern army was far from shattered. It’s a simple matter for amateur historians to run the table with mighty victories. All that is required is an innocent disregard for the realities of war, the friction, the commotion and confusion of it all. The Army of Northern Virginia, as it stood in August 1862, might possibly have brought it off. But Lee had not yet risen to high command, nor had Jackson.
That’s part of what I love about LGF: I get to hang out with other people who share my love of history.
| 94 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:48:28pm |
re: #90 Varek Raith
Ah, okay. My first guess was “Freedom Fighter in Name Only”.
| 95 |
Varek Raith Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:49:04pm |
re: #92 Killgore Trout
Yeah, we had a thread about this a few months ago the the Sons of the Confederacy announced they bought time to air them on the History Channel.
Crazy.
My mind can’t seem to process that level of bullshit.
My head may asplode.
| 96 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:49:20pm |
re: #92 Killgore Trout
Yeah, we had a thread about this a few months ago the the Sons of the Confederacy announced they bought time to air them on the History Channel.
The History Channel should have refused to air them. To have taken filthy money like that was shameful.
| 97 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:49:51pm |
the men that fought the Civil War did so with honor….how else can you explain Pickets Charge?…right or wrong, the rebels had that much going for them…they worshiped Lee and honor drove them to suicidal feats….one has to take that into consideration
| 98 |
Sionainn Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:49:53pm |
re: #72 jaunte
palaverous farrago of obscurantism.
I can’t remember the last time I had to look up definitions for words and here you challenged me with three. Kudos to you (and an upding).
| 99 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:49:57pm |
Sam Houston on secession, 1861:
Upon refusing to sign the Ordnance of Secession:
“Fellow-Citizens, in the name of your rights and liberties, which I believe have been trampled upon, I refuse to take this oath. In the name of the nationality of Texas, which has been betrayed by the Convention, I refuse to take this oath. In the name of the Constitution of Texas, I refuse to take this oath. In the name of my own conscience and manhood, which this Convention would degrade by dragging me before it, to pander to the malice of my enemies, I refuse to take this oath. I deny the power of this Convention to speak for Texas….I protest….against all the acts and doings of this convention and I declare them null and void.
He was evicted from the governor’s office, but remained entirely opposed to the Confederacy. A couple of months later, he added this:
“Let me tell you what is coming. After the sacrifice of countless millions of treasure and hundreds of thousands of lives, you may win Southern independence if God be not against you, but I doubt it. I tell you that, while I believe with you in the doctrine of states rights, the North is determined to preserve this Union. They are not a fiery, impulsive people as you are, for they live in colder climates. But when they begin to move in a given direction, they move with the steady momentum and perseverance of a mighty avalanche; and what I fear is, they will overwhelm the South.”
He died in 1863 and did not get to see his words vindicated.
| 100 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:50:16pm |
re: #95 Varek Raith
Crazy.
My mind can’t seem to process that level of bullshit.
My head may asplode.
There were 11 of them projected, some were on YouTube when last I looked.
| 101 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:50:23pm |
re: #91 EmmmieG
Well, lots of the Japanese can tell you with a straight face that Pearl harbor was self-defense.
Don’t even try asking a regular Japanese person about the Korean “comfort” women. Or atrocities on the islands.
It’s the history they are taught.
and you sure as shit don’t ask them about the Ainu. :( In my friend’s high school, there were Japanese exchange students and one from Okinawa. The Japanese students treated the Okinawan like such garbage that the local south Seattle students had to protect her from beatings. :(
| 102 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:51:09pm |
re: #92 Killgore Trout
Was it confirmed that it was just on a local provider? I don’t have the cable tv to check myself.
| 103 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:51:16pm |
re: #96 Dark_Falcon
The History Channel should have refused to air them. To have taken filthy money like that was shameful.
problem is, those guys watch the history channel. They’re pandering to their market
| 104 |
prairiefire Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:51:37pm |
re: #70 webevintage
My husband’s family owned slaves and a few guys fought/died in the civil war.
I like to tell my BIL who does, yes, Civil War reenactments that they were all a bunch of traitors…
That really gets him going.(though BIL is not a TeaGOP type. This is a family of Southern Democrats who would never…never…vote for Republicans.)
There is a lot of local, regional pride involved. The Southern side seems more vocal about it.
| 105 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:52:56pm |
re: #99 Shiplord Kirel
Sam Houston on secession, 1861:
Upon refusing to sign the Ordnance of Secession:
He was evicted from the governor’s office, but remained entirely opposed to the Confederacy. A couple of months later, he added this:
He died in 1863 and did not get to see his words vindicated.
Houston was the real deal…very much under rated in the history books
| 106 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:53:17pm |
I loved the frame flipping Wilmore did with the “Nat Turner Rebellion Reenactment!”
| 107 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:53:48pm |
re: #77 Dark_Falcon
My Standing Answer to Neo-Confederates:
[Video]
Sherman was one of the preeminent military minds of history. In my book, he rates higher than Lee. He was a strategic thinker.
You people of the South don’t know what you are doing. This country will be drenched in blood, and God only knows how it will end. It is all folly, madness, a crime against civilization! You people speak so lightly of war; you don’t know what you’re talking about. War is a terrible thing! You mistake, too, the people of the North. They are a peaceable people but an earnest people, and they will fight, too. They are not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it… Besides, where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them? The North can make a steam engine, locomotive, or railway car; hardly a yard of cloth or pair of shoes can you make. You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earth—right at your doors. You are bound to fail. Only in your spirit and determination are you prepared for war. In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with. At first you will make headway, but as your limited resources begin to fail, shut out from the markets of Europe as you will be, your cause will begin to wane. If your people will but stop and think, they must see in the end that you will surely fail.
His March to the Sea was followed by a move up the coast toward Lee that Liddell Hart used as a textbook example of the strategy of the indirect approach. Joseph Johnston gave credit mostly to his army, but other men than Sherman had the same breed of Yankees to work with:
His army proceeded north through South Carolina against light resistance from the troops of Confederate General Joseph E. Johnston. Upon hearing that Sherman’s men were advancing on corduroy roads through the Salkehatchie swamps at a rate of a dozen miles per day, Johnston “made up his mind that there had been no such army in existence since the days of Julius Caesar.”
| 109 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:54:34pm |
Jesse Ventura, on his show “Conspiracy Theory” (ooooooh) just talked to someone who believes that BP created the oil spill for the purpose of depopulating southern Louisiana.
WHY is that show allowed to be broadcast at all?
| 110 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:54:56pm |
re: #103 WindUpBird
problem is, those guys watch the history channel. They’re pandering to their market
a part of the market…lets be honest about it, the HC appeals to a wide variety of people
| 111 |
Varek Raith Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:55:31pm |
re: #109 reine.de.tout
Jesse Ventura, on his show “Conspiracy Theory” (oooh) just talked to someone who believes that BP created the oil spill for the purpose of depopulating southern Louisiana.
WHY is that show allowed to be broadcast at all?
O_o
That conspiracy doesn’t even make sense!
| 112 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:56:01pm |
re: #105 albusteve
Houston was the real deal…very much under rated in the history books
He had his flaws, like anyone else, but he was on balance a very great and courageous man. He would probably be honored even more than he is here in Texas if not for his heroic stance against secession and the Confederacy. Times are changing though and Sam may yet get his full due.
| 113 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:56:07pm |
re: #97 albusteve
the men that fought the Civil War did so with honor…how else can you explain Pickets Charge?…right or wrong, the rebels had that much going for them…they worshiped Lee and honor drove them to suicidal feats…one has to take that into consideration
True. Lee’s men trusted him and he strove to be worthy of that trust. At Gettysburg, his judgment failed that trust and his men died because of it. Lee, however, was not like a politician: He openly told his men: “It’s my fault.” Lee fought for a bad cause, but he was a man of decency and integrity.
| 114 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:56:16pm |
re: #97 albusteve
the men that fought the Civil War did so with honor…how else can you explain Pickets Charge?…right or wrong, the rebels had that much going for them…they worshiped Lee and honor drove them to suicidal feats…one has to take that into consideration
I’ve never thought of the Confederate leaders as traitors—the concept of national loyalty just hadn’t jelled enough at the time. The SCV, Alaska Independents, Vermont Republic, and other bullshitters are traitors, morally, even though they don’t rise to the constitutional definition.
| 115 |
cliffster Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:56:43pm |
re: #97 albusteve
the men that fought the Civil War did so with honor…how else can you explain Pickets Charge?…right or wrong, the rebels had that much going for them…they worshiped Lee and honor drove them to suicidal feats…one has to take that into consideration
the rebels fielded an army of men that people today wouldn’t even recognize. they don’t make ‘em like that any more.
| 116 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:56:45pm |
re: #107 lostlakehiker
Sherman was one of the preeminent military minds of history. In my book, he rates higher than Lee. He was a strategic thinker.
His March to the Sea was followed by a move up the coast toward Lee that Liddell Hart used as a textbook example of the strategy of the indirect approach. Joseph Johnston gave credit mostly to his army, but other men than Sherman had the same breed of Yankees to work with:
Sherman was a genocidal ass, add that to his strategic genius
| 117 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:56:54pm |
re: #29 b_sharp
Germany is working hard to be associated with porn.
I thought that was Hungry’s job….
| 118 |
prairiefire Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:57:35pm |
re: #115 cliffster
the rebels fielded an army of men that people today wouldn’t even recognize. they don’t make ‘em like that any more.
Oh, I think there are plenty of them walking around where I live.
| 119 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:57:57pm |
re: #112 Shiplord Kirel
He had his flaws, like anyone else, but he was on balance a very great and courageous man. He would probably be honored even more than he is here in Texas if not for his heroic stance against secession and the Confederacy. Times are changing though and Sam may yet get his full due.
I hope so…toss Crockett in there and I’ll be satisfied
| 120 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:58:00pm |
re: #109 reine.de.tout
Jesse Ventura, on his show “Conspiracy Theory” (oooh) just talked to someone who believes that BP created the oil spill for the purpose of depopulating southern Louisiana.
WHY is that show allowed to be broadcast at all?
For the Lulz….
| 121 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:58:30pm |
re: #115 cliffster
the rebels fielded an army of men that people today wouldn’t even recognize. they don’t make ‘em like that any more.
You say that like its a bad thing….
| 122 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:59:40pm |
re: #107 lostlakehiker
Sherman was one of the preeminent military minds of history. In my book, he rates higher than Lee. He was a strategic thinker.
His March to the Sea was followed by a move up the coast toward Lee that Liddell Hart used as a textbook example of the strategy of the indirect approach. Joseph Johnston gave credit mostly to his army, but other men than Sherman had the same breed of Yankees to work with:
As a tactician, Lee was better, as witness Sherman’s poor initial deployment of his division at Shiloh (though Sherman’s courage under fire redeemed that error); Lee would not have made a similar deployment error. But Sherman had a better grasp of how to win the war, not just how to win battles. Thus I agree with you: Sherman was the most capable general of the war.
| 123 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:59:47pm |
re: #113 Dark_Falcon
True. Lee’s men trusted him and he strove to be worthy of that trust. At Gettysburg, his judgment failed that trust and his men died because of it. Lee, however, was not like a politician: He openly told his men: “It’s my fault.” Lee fought for a bad cause, but he was a man of decency and integrity.
the Union tried to hire him…that speaks volumes for his prowess…interesting guy, in interesting times
| 124 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Fri, Dec 10, 2010 6:59:47pm |
| 125 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:00:59pm |
re: #115 cliffster
the rebels fielded an army of men that people today wouldn’t even recognize. they don’t make ‘em like that any more.
agreed….tough, relentless and loyal to the bone
| 126 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:01:22pm |
re: #123 albusteve
the Union tried to hire him…that speaks volumes for his prowess…interesting guy, in interesting times
Lee was a great tactical thinker, bar the third day of Gettysburg when he evidently had one gigantic brain fart…
Its hard to imagine someone so intelligent doing so stupid….
Has anyone else here read “guns of the south”?
| 127 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:01:52pm |
re: #115 cliffster
the rebels fielded an army of men that people today wouldn’t even recognize. they don’t make ‘em like that any more.
We made them as recently as 1944. I came across this MoH today.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
| 128 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:01:58pm |
re: #122 Dark_Falcon
As a tactician, Lee was better, as witness Sherman’s poor initial deployment of his division at Shiloh (though Sherman’s courage under fire redeemed that error); Lee would not have made a similar deployment error. But Sherman had a better grasp of how to win the war, not just how to win battles. Thus I agree with you: Sherman was the most capable general of the war.
Sherman looked at not only winning battles, but breaking the enemy’s will to fight in the long run. It made him a seem like a bastard, but he was a damn fine general.
| 129 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:03:09pm |
re: #126 jamesfirecat
Lee was a great tactical thinker, bar the third day of Gettysburg when he evidently had one gigantic brain fart…
Its hard to imagine someone so intelligent doing so stupid…
Has anyone else here read “guns of the south”?
I have. I think that Henry Turtledove portrayed Lee correctly.
| 130 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:03:44pm |
re: #109 reine.de.tout
Jesse Ventura, on his show “Conspiracy Theory” (oooh) just talked to someone who believes that BP created the oil spill for the purpose of depopulating southern Louisiana.
WHY is that show allowed to be broadcast at all?
OMG, it gets better.
It’s an eeeeevil gov’t conspiracy that began with Katrina.
Obama is a sekrit CIA agent.
And some guy has had brown stuff coming out of his ears for months (maybe his brain turned to mush?).
My jaw is on the floor.
| 131 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:03:55pm |
Wow. If I’m reading this properly, this could be the most devastating wikileaks cable yet. Just. Wow.
| 132 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:04:49pm |
re: #131 Slumbering Behemoth
Wow. If I’m reading this properly, this could be the most devastating wikileaks cable yet. Just. Wow.
You magnificent bastard.
| 133 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:04:50pm |
re: #131 Slumbering Behemoth
Wow. If I’m reading this properly, this could be the most devastating wikileaks cable yet. Just. Wow.
You are going to hell for that.
| 134 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:04:52pm |
re: #91 EmmmieG
Well, lots of the Japanese can tell you with a straight face that Pearl harbor was self-defense.
Don’t even try asking a regular Japanese person about the Korean “comfort” women. Or atrocities on the islands.
It’s the history they are taught.
That’s the small stuff. Ask about what really happened at “Bridge on the River Kwai”. One of the last survivors told the true story on his deathbed. I can’t find a link but the story appeared in a major newspaper of record, in 2009 or 2010.
Or ask about the germ warfare against China.
Epidemic prevention and water purification department of the Kwantung ArmyAn Orwellian title of the first rank.
It was pursued in deadly earnest. The military point of all that killing was hard to discern; China’s population might as well have been infinite for all that Japanese efforts in that line could achieve.
| 135 |
What, me worry? Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:05:59pm |
re: #131 Slumbering Behemoth
Wow. If I’m reading this properly, this could be the most devastating wikileaks cable yet. Just. Wow.
Don’t ask, don’t tell.
| 136 |
122 Year Old Obama Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:06:01pm |
re: #131 Slumbering Behemoth
Best leak evar.
| 137 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:06:05pm |
re: #131 Slumbering Behemoth
Wow. If I’m reading this properly, this could be the most devastating wikileaks cable yet. Just. Wow.
Yeah, I mean its really interesting stuff… I think much more profound then his series in which Lee’s missing order stays missing, because we see what it would take to bring out the nobility of the south…
| 138 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:06:07pm |
re: #126 jamesfirecat
Lee was a great tactical thinker, bar the third day of Gettysburg when he evidently had one gigantic brain fart…
Its hard to imagine someone so intelligent doing so stupid…
Has anyone else here read “guns of the south”?
he depended on Stuarts roundabout encirclement, which Custer dashed….he committed to a situation that he presumed, rather than having solid intelligence…glory and fear can only get you so far…the Japanese fucked up the same way at Guadalcanal
| 139 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:06:44pm |
re: #127 Decatur Deb
We made them as recently as 1944. I came across this MoH today.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
| 140 |
Varek Raith Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:06:50pm |
re: #130 reine.de.tout
OMG, it gets better.
It’s an eeevil gov’t conspiracy that began with Katrina.
Obama is a sekrit CIA agent.
And some guy has had brown stuff coming out of his ears for months (maybe his brain turned to mush?).My jaw is on the floor.
Obama created hurricane Katrina and has a pew pew laser that melts brains.
Awesome.
| 141 |
cliffster Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:07:18pm |
re: #127 Decatur Deb
We made them as recently as 1944. I came across this MoH today.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
well the statement was more rhetorical - there have been unbelievably brave men fighting for us throughout. the men fighting for the rebel army were a giants though.
| 142 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:07:39pm |
re: #128 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Sherman looked at not only winning battles, but breaking the enemy’s will to fight in the long run. It made him a seem like a bastard, but he was a damn fine general.
to fine…when he turned north after trashing Atlanta, he went over the edge
| 143 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:07:46pm |
re: #131 Slumbering Behemoth
Wow. If I’m reading this properly, this could be the most devastating wikileaks cable yet. Just. Wow.
I’ve been Rick-Rolled.
| 144 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:08:04pm |
| 145 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:08:23pm |
re: #131 Slumbering Behemoth
Wow. If I’m reading this properly, this could be the most devastating wikileaks cable yet. Just. Wow.
CRREEEED YOU TACTICAL GENIUS!
| 146 |
cliffster Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:08:46pm |
re: #131 Slumbering Behemoth
Wow. If I’m reading this properly, this could be the most devastating wikileaks cable yet. Just. Wow.
you win the internet.
| 147 |
122 Year Old Obama Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:09:00pm |
| 148 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:10:19pm |
re: #142 albusteve
to fine…when he turned north after trashing Atlanta, he went over the edge
Turned South, you mean.
| 149 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:10:26pm |
re: #116 albusteve
Sherman was a genocidal ass, add that to his strategic genius
Georgia lost some crops. This kind of destruction is within the law of war, as defined from the Bible down to the Geneva conventions.
You’re just factually incorrect on this point, my friend.
And there is no sarc tag for any of this post.
| 150 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:10:50pm |
re: #141 cliffster
well the statement was more rhetorical - there have been unbelievably brave men fighting for us throughout. the men fighting for the rebel army were a giants though.
And they represented a horrific cause.
We should never forget the horrors they committed /knowingly stood for, or what they did.
We should not sugar coat what they stood for because of what they achieved in the field of battle, they were complex like all historical figures.
///Except Hitler he was pure evil….
| 151 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:10:57pm |
| 152 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:12:34pm |
| 153 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:13:04pm |
re: #149 lostlakehiker
Georgia lost some crops. This kind of destruction is within the law of war, as defined from the Bible down to the Geneva conventions.
You’re just factually incorrect on this point, my friend.
And there is no sarc tag for any of this post.
his career lasted beyond the Civil War….he was utterly clueless trying to slaughter the northern indian tribes
| 154 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:13:07pm |
re: #149 lostlakehiker
Georgia lost some crops. This kind of destruction is within the law of war, as defined from the Bible down to the Geneva conventions.
You’re just factually incorrect on this point, my friend.
And there is no sarc tag for any of this post.
From what I heard at one point to clear a primitive land mind field he did so by making POW’s walk across it….
That’s hardly genocidal but it is also a pretty dark mark on him if it is true….
Sherman was complex, just like Lee….
| 156 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:14:03pm |
re: #142 albusteve
to fine…when he turned north after trashing Atlanta, he went over the edge
Sherman turned East, actually. And in so doing, in cutting lose from his supply lines and disemboweling the south’s war economy, he wrote his mark in history. That was his finest hour. And just think: on top of everything else, he was winning the war without hardly any killing. Flanking moves, deception, mobility—-the south found itself without even any sensible opportunities for giving battle. In this, he achieved a fair approximation to Caesars’ campaign in Spain.
| 157 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:14:40pm |
Sherman set the tone and the strategy for destroying the American indian….he sucks
| 158 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:15:19pm |
re: #109 reine.de.tout
Jesse Ventura, on his show “Conspiracy Theory” (oooh) just talked to someone who believes that BP created the oil spill for the purpose of depopulating southern Louisiana.
WHY is that show allowed to be broadcast at all?
Well, it’s not any nuttier than what Glenn Beck, Napolitano and the rest of the Fox newscasters do on a daily basis. Crazy sells.
| 159 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:15:37pm |
re: #153 albusteve
his career lasted beyond the Civil War…he was utterly clueless trying to slaughter the northern indian tribes
I didn’t call Sherman a statesman. But then, he didn’t call himself a statesman. His finest civilian hour was also memorable:
If nominated I will not run; if elected, I will not serve.
| 160 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:16:17pm |
re: #156 lostlakehiker
Sherman turned East, actually. And in so doing, in cutting lose from his supply lines and disemboweling the south’s war economy, he wrote his mark in history. That was his finest hour. And just think: on top of everything else, he was winning the war without hardly any killing. Flanking moves, deception, mobility—-the south found itself without even any sensible opportunities for giving battle. In this, he achieved a fair approximation to Caesars’ campaign in Spain.
yeah right…he punished the south and did more to divide the country than was necessary….but he sure got the job done
| 161 |
cliffster Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:16:26pm |
My little girl turns five tomorrow. Tonight, when I put her down, she said, “Last night of being four!” I told her I was going to miss my little four-year-old girl. She said “me too.. I had really fun being four”. Oh well. Goodbye, four
| 162 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:16:42pm |
re: #154 jamesfirecat
From what I heard at one point to clear a primitive land mind field he did so by making POW’s walk across it…
That’s hardly genocidal but it is also a pretty dark mark on him if it is true…
Sherman was complex, just like Lee…
I hadn’t heard about that. I’m not calling you a liar, but I’m curious. If you happen to have a source, I’d like to read about the details.
| 163 |
What, me worry? Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:17:01pm |
re: #157 albusteve
Sherman set the tone and the strategy for destroying the American indian…he sucks
Ditto Andrew Jackson.
| 164 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:17:27pm |
re: #161 cliffster
My little girl turns five tomorrow. Tonight, when I put her down, she said, “Last night of being four!” I told her I was going to miss my little four-year-old girl. She said “me too.. I had really fun being four”. Oh well. Goodbye, four
Write that down, frame it and put it in the scrapbook. Really. That’s so sweet.
| 165 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:18:09pm |
re: #159 lostlakehiker
I didn’t call Sherman a statesman. But then, he didn’t call himself a statesman. His finest civilian hour was also memorable:
thank god
| 166 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:18:29pm |
re: #156 lostlakehiker
Sherman turned East, actually. And in so doing, in cutting lose from his supply lines and disemboweling the south’s war economy, he wrote his mark in history. That was his finest hour. And just think: on top of everything else, he was winning the war without hardly any killing. Flanking moves, deception, mobility—-the south found itself without even any sensible opportunities for giving battle. In this, he achieved a fair approximation to Caesars’ campaign in Spain.
Just so. Of course he was helped by Jefferson Davis removing Joe Johnston and replacing him with John Bell Hood. Hood was brave, but he destroyed his army with foolish frontal attacks on Union forces. He could not understand the extent to which the percussion cap rifle-musket had changed warfare.
| 167 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:18:43pm |
re: #162 lostlakehiker
I hadn’t heard about that. I’m not calling you a liar, but I’m curious. If you happen to have a source, I’d like to read about the details.
It was on the history channel, let me see if I can find anything online…
| 168 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:19:10pm |
| 169 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:20:27pm |
| 170 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:20:58pm |
re: #158 Killgore Trout
Well, it’s not any nuttier than what Glenn Beck, Napolitano and the rest of the Fox newscasters do on a daily basis. Crazy sells.
“The depopulation conspiracy targets you!”
Not just Louisiana. Just announced.
| 171 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:21:22pm |
re: #166 Dark_Falcon
Just so. Of course he was helped by Jefferson Davis removing Joe Johnston and replacing him with John Bell Hood. Hood was brave, but he destroyed his army with foolish frontal attacks on Union forces. He could not understand the extent to which the percussion cap rifle-musket had changed warfare.
FREDERICKSBURG!
fREDERICKSBURG!
| 172 |
tradewind Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:21:40pm |
lol of the week:
‘I’m going to let him speak very briefly
(Obama ,Friday). Talk about your learning curve….
But fun to see Bubba back in his element, no matter how.
| 173 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:22:44pm |
| 174 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:25:02pm |
re: #172 tradewind
lol of the week:
(Obama ,Friday). Talk about your learning curve…
But fun to see Bubba back in his element, no matter how.
that was cool….talk about upstaged…I still cannot dislike Bill, he blew BO right off the podium today…wow!
| 175 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:25:06pm |
re: #127 Decatur Deb
We made them as recently as 1944. I came across this MoH today.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
Iraq war: Paul Ray Smith, MOH Operation Iraqi Freedom.
The MOH awardees in the Afghanistan war have all been Yankees. Of course, they make them north and south. We are, after all, one nation.
| 176 |
cliffster Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:27:15pm |
re: #164 lostlakehiker
Write that down, frame it and put it in the scrapbook. Really. That’s so sweet.
yeah, she’s a great kid. for a fantastic little soul like hers to be entrusted with a jackass like me is a monumental error on the part of the universe, but I try not to F it up.
| 177 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:28:00pm |
re: #171 albusteve
FREDERICKSBURG!
fREDERICKSBURG!
That’s what Union soldiers shouted at Gettysburg as Pickett, Pettigrew, and Trimble’s men came under Union artillery fire. Lee had ordered his men to attack Union troops who had a stone wall to use for cover, just as his men had had at Fredericksburg.
| 178 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:28:42pm |
re: #162 lostlakehiker
I hadn’t heard about that. I’m not calling you a liar, but I’m curious. If you happen to have a source, I’d like to read about the details.
Here are some other people discussing it…
[Link: forums.spacebattles.com…]
So I know I wasn’t imagining it, though I’m not sure what the History chanel was drawing its information from…
| 179 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:29:06pm |
re: #161 cliffster
My little girl turns five tomorrow. Tonight, when I put her down, she said, “Last night of being four!” I told her I was going to miss my little four-year-old girl. She said “me too.. I had really fun being four”. Oh well. Goodbye, four
*sniff*
I love that.
I miss my four-year-old, too. I loved that age.
| 180 |
tradewind Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:29:18pm |
re: #174 albusteve
As with Dumbledore, you may not like him, but you can’t deny…. Clinton has style.
As a leadership-image enhancer, however, not the best move by POTUS.
| 181 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:29:32pm |
re: #176 cliffster
yeah, she’s a great kid. for a fantastic little soul like hers to be entrusted with a jackass like me is a monumental error on the part of the universe, but I try not to F it up.
she doesn’t know you are a jackass, daddy…just do what you do…I have stories but alot of love covers most, if not all, shortcomings
| 182 |
tradewind Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:29:59pm |
re: #179 reine.de.tout
There aren’t enough updings……
(sniff)
| 183 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:30:46pm |
re: #177 Dark_Falcon
That’s what Union soldiers shouted at Gettysburg as Pickett, Pettigrew, and Trimble’s men came under Union artillery fire. Lee had ordered his men to attack Union troops who had a stone wall to use for cover, just as his men had had at Fredericksburg.
Marye’s Heights..been there and it’s chilling
| 184 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:32:57pm |
re: #180 tradewind
As with Dumbledore, you may not like him, but you can’t deny… Clinton has style.
As a leadership-image enhancer, however, not the best move by POTUS.
BO is scrambling…he’s over his head and he knows it…that presser was just unbelievable…stunning
| 185 |
Idle Drifter Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:33:33pm |
re: #183 albusteve
Marye’s Heights..been there and it’s chilling
With all the crazy rhetoric on secession I’d hate to revisit the past though with more modern weapons.
| 186 |
cliffster Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:33:57pm |
re: #181 albusteve
she doesn’t know you are a jackass, daddy…just do what you do…I have stories but alot of love covers most, if not all, shortcomings
hehe.. good points, thanks steve
| 187 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:34:34pm |
re: #185 Idle Drifter
With all the crazy rhetoric on secession I’d hate to revisit the past though with more modern weapons.
not gonna happen…conspiracy gone wild, it’s laughable
| 188 |
tradewind Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:35:23pm |
re: #184 albusteve
You could almost hear the band starting up the overture from ‘Hello Dolly ’ in the background….
| 189 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:36:20pm |
What I don’t miss is the two-year-old.
I had to carry her if I was in a hurry and didn’t want to take an hour to walk from the store to the car.
But she was not a still child, she wriggled and moved around a lot. Once she wriggled around so much she managed to untie my wrap skirt, and it came right off, in the Albertson’s parking lot. I didn’t even really realize it ‘til two guys in a truck passed us up and the guy’s eyes were wide as saucers. I had the kid in one arm, I was pushing a basket with the other, and really, it was a bit of a struggle to get that skirt back on. I’m perfectly happy those days are long gone.
| 190 |
tradewind Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:36:23pm |
Hope you’re on the mend and doing well, Steve…
Later.
| 191 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:36:42pm |
re: #186 cliffster
hehe.. good points, thanks steve
my kids worship me (and I, them) not for what I ever did or was, but because of how I treated them….they just accept what I did before their time
| 192 |
Idle Drifter Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:36:56pm |
re: #187 albusteve
not gonna happen…conspiracy gone wild, it’s laughable
I tend not to laugh at insanity or be surprised when comes to pass.
| 193 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:36:59pm |
re: #130 reine.de.tout
Quick, turn off the teevee before you brain melts!
| 194 |
What, me worry? Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:37:06pm |
re: #168 albusteve
yup…great men?
Oh yeaaa. I had a Lakota friend, whom after learning about General Custer in history class, his father told him, “Don’t worry, son. We won that one.”
| 195 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:37:07pm |
re: #190 tradewind
Hope you’re on the mend and doing well, Steve…
Later.
Don’t go, TW. You just got here.
| 196 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:37:09pm |
re: #187 albusteve
not gonna happen…conspiracy gone wild, it’s laughable
For a guess, perhaps half all Americans don’t live in the state of their birth. My old Pittsburgh ass is not going to war for the Sovern’ Nation of Bama.
| 197 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:37:14pm |
re: #189 reine.de.tout
Pics or it didn’t happen.
/:P
| 198 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:37:24pm |
re: #185 Idle Drifter
With all the crazy rhetoric on secession I’d hate to revisit the past though with more modern weapons.
I think our army is too centralized for something like that to happen…
For all the talk of secession from crazies and every so often crazy elected people, do we have any proof that any of the soldiers belonging to those states would be willing to break with the US?
Without a real army the second civil war would be over real quick…
| 199 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:37:33pm |
WTF? Just up in pages:
| 200 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:37:41pm |
re: #193 Floral Giraffe
Quick, turn off the teevee before you brain melts!
naw, I’m gonna watch the whole thing and report back tomorrow.
NOT.
| 201 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:38:54pm |
re: #188 tradewind
You could almost hear the band starting up the overture from ‘Hello Dolly ’ in the background…
standing there with his arms folded while the press drooled over Bill was utterly priceless…a gigantic blunder by the kid…check out the pic Drudge has up, hahaha!
| 202 |
tradewind Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:39:09pm |
re: #195 Dark_Falcon
It’s that time of year when I’m way behind and the sit-down time is short….. I’ll check back.
| 203 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:39:43pm |
re: #190 tradewind
Hope you’re on the mend and doing well, Steve…
Later.
back to the future…I’m not giving up
thanks
| 204 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:39:55pm |
re: #202 tradewind
It’s that time of year when I’m way behind and the sit-down time is short… I’ll check back.
OK, thanks.
| 205 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:39:55pm |
re: #138 albusteve
he depended on Stuarts roundabout encirclement, which Custer dashed…he committed to a situation that he presumed, rather than having solid intelligence…glory and fear can only get you so far…the Japanese fucked up the same way at Guadalcanal
I’d argue that he lost at Gettysburg when he stayed the night of July 1. Thanks to Buford, the Union forces had the high ground and it was a bad place for a fight. Additionally Stuart was missing still. Had he slipped away to the south and east he might have found a better place for a fight. But he was still there the morning of July 2, the die was cast and General Meade gave the fight of a generation, handing Lee his hat.
| 206 |
tradewind Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:40:33pm |
re: #196 Decatur Deb
/As if they want the damyankee anyway.//
:)
| 207 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:40:43pm |
re: #192 Idle Drifter
I tend not to laugh at insanity or be surprised when comes to pass.
praise the lord and pass the ammo….please
| 208 |
cliffster Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:42:14pm |
re: #189 reine.de.tout
yeah, my other kid is a 2 year old little curly-headed boy. He’s unbelievably cute and he knows exactly how cute he is. I’m 100% ready for him to be 18.
| 209 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:43:16pm |
re: #194 marjoriemoon
Oh yeaaa. I had a Lakota friend, whom after learning about General Custer in history class, his father told him, “Don’t worry, son. We won that one.”
they tromped George…but he set it up so that they had no choice…way to go dumbass….Red Cloud stood firm and closed the Bozeman Trail too…a real authentic tough guy…I’d love to have a few beers with him
| 210 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:43:55pm |
re: #208 cliffster
yeah, my other kid is a 2 year old little curly-headed boy. He’s unbelievably cute and he knows exactly how cute he is. I’m 100% ready for him to be 18.
hehehe.
He’ll be 4 before ya know it. And all will be well.
| 211 |
Idle Drifter Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:44:09pm |
re: #198 jamesfirecat
I think our army is too centralized for something like that to happen…
For all the talk of secession from crazies and every so often crazy elected people, do we have any proof that any of the soldiers belonging to those states would be willing to break with the US?
Without a real army the second civil war would be over real quick…
Very true. Most of this is just rhetoric to play up the stupid. Any armed revolt in the country would be put down in a relatively short amount of time. However, it’s the not the large organized army of secessionists that has me worried. It’s small and the individual efforts that cause me the greater concern. DC Snipers and the Oklahoma City bombing come to mind concerning the trouble a small group or individual that had too much koolaid to drink can cause with little to no warning.
| 212 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:44:38pm |
re: #196 Decatur Deb
For a guess, perhaps half all Americans don’t live in the state of their birth. My old Pittsburgh ass is not going to war for the Sovern’ Nation of Bama.
the Old South is dead….overrun by Yankees….heh, pass the sweet tea
| 213 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:44:48pm |
re: #209 albusteve
they tromped George…but he set it up so that they had no choice…way to go dumbass…Red Cloud stood firm and closed the Bozeman Trail too…a real authentic tough guy…I’d love to have a few beers with him
US Army has a Camp Red Cloud. There is no Fort Custer.
| 214 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:46:09pm |
re: #211 Idle Drifter
Very true. Most of this is just rhetoric to play up the stupid. Any armed revolt in the country would be put down in a relatively short amount of time. However, it’s the not the large organized army of secessionists that has me worried. It’s small and the individual efforts that cause me the greater concern. DC Snipers and the Oklahoma City bombing come to mind concerning the trouble a small group or individual that had too much koolaid to drink can cause with little to no warning.
In short, there will be no second civil war, but the southern militias could do to the US what the Taliban does to Afghanistan …. I don’t mean that as an insult, just saying they could be a roving band who stays away from most cities strikes quickly with IEDs and then vanishes into the wilderness…
For a while at least….
| 215 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:48:17pm |
re: #46 wee fury
The South attempts to re-write history because … today’s southerners (many whose relatives who fought in the Civil War) do not want to be seen as racist or of condoning/pardoning slavery. Therefore, “The war was fought because of taxation.” — or some other fabrication. History fuzzily re-written.
I wish the south could be as open and honest with their horrible history as the Germans are with theirs concerning WW2, you know honest admission of guilt rather than this dancing around BS….
| 216 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:49:03pm |
re: #189 reine.de.tout
LOL!
My niece was two and we were on a long road trip, when she started screaming & sobbing like a banshee. Had never happened before. A quick stop at Mickey Dee’s for “french fries” which was what we thought she was screaming about. Turns out her shoe was untied. LOL! She’s a great kid, and it was funny, once we’d tied her shoe, and rested for a while.
| 217 |
SpaceJesus Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:49:19pm |
re: #67 Charles
Robert Stacy McCain’s tortured attempt to explain the neo-Confederate viewpoint:
[Link: theothermccain.com…]
Reading the comments over there makes me want to do crimes
| 218 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:51:46pm |
re: #205 wlewisiii
I’d argue that he lost at Gettysburg when he stayed the night of July 1. Thanks to Buford, the Union forces had the high ground and it was a bad place for a fight. Additionally Stuart was missing still. Had he slipped away to the south and east he might have found a better place for a fight. But he was still there the morning of July 2, the die was cast and General Meade gave the fight of a generation, handing Lee his hat.
yup, exactly right….he underestimated Meade, who had superior ground for his artillery….it was a disaster from the beginning and historians will forever wonder wtf was he thinking?….how in the world could Lee presume to flank the Union by taking Little Round Top?, a small piece of the larger fight…and how was it Lee didn’t consider Meades troops pouring into the fight?….rebel bravery was a tactical myth in terms of actually taking ground, and Getysburg was all about terrain…Lee fucked up monumentally
| 219 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:52:05pm |
re: #215 jamesfirecat
I wish the south could be as open and honest with their horrible history as the Germans are with theirs concerning WW2, you know honest admission of guilt rather than this dancing around BS…
They won’t. They were never made to won up to the horror of what they’d done, and ultimately Southern terrorists raised the price of forcing the South to continue to change beyond what the North was willing to pay. So the Federal troops were withdrawn and in their place came segregation.
| 220 |
What, me worry? Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:52:06pm |
re: #209 albusteve
they tromped George…but he set it up so that they had no choice…way to go dumbass…Red Cloud stood firm and closed the Bozeman Trail too…a real authentic tough guy…I’d love to have a few beers with him
Awesome man. I remember hearing something about his great-great-grandson. Henry Red Cloud. He’s working in renewable energy.
[Link: www.motherearthnews.com…]
| 221 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:52:16pm |
| 222 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:52:42pm |
re: #213 Decatur Deb
US Army has a Camp Red Cloud. There is no Fort Custer.
Actually there is. Fort Custer Training Center opened in 1917. It’s Michigan National Guard and located just outside of Battle Creek, MI. He was with the Michigan Volunteers during the ACW so I suppose that’s somewhat appropriate.
| 223 |
Idle Drifter Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:52:55pm |
re: #214 jamesfirecat
In short, there will be no second civil war, but the southern militias could do to the US what the Taliban does to Afghanistan … I don’t mean that as an insult, just saying they could be a roving band who stays away from most cities strikes quickly with IEDs and then vanishes into the wilderness…
For a while at least…
No insult taken. The Shit would have to hit the Fan in the worse possible way for the dissolution of the Union. Impossible no, highly improbable yes. So as long as the rhetoric is just rhetoric. I’m fine.
| 224 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:54:02pm |
re: #223 Idle Drifter
No insult taken. The Shit would have to hit the Fan in the worse possible way for the dissolution of the Union. Impossible no, highly improbable yes. So as long as the rhetoric is just rhetoric. I’m fine.
No modern U.S. military unit would fall in line behind a state secession movement.
| 225 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:54:29pm |
re: #218 albusteve
yup, exactly right…he underestimated Meade, who had superior ground for his artillery…it was a disaster from the beginning and historians will forever wonder wtf was he thinking?…how in the world could Lee presume to flank the Union by taking Little Round Top?, a small piece of the larger fight…and how was it Lee didn’t consider Meades troops pouring into the fight?…rebel bravery was a tactical myth in terms of actually taking ground, and Getysburg was all about terrain…Lee fucked up monumentally
But please give the Army of the Potomac its due. The Union troops fought hard and it had its own leaders of high quality, with Winfield Scott Hancock and G.K. Warren heading the list.
| 226 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:54:32pm |
re: #219 Dark_Falcon
They won’t. They were never made to won up to the horror of what they’d done, and ultimately Southern terrorists raised the price of forcing the South to continue to change beyond what the North was willing to pay. So the Federal troops were withdrawn and in their place came segregation.
Hope springs eternal that people can change yadda yadda yadda usual liberal hope for a better world even in the faith of seemingly impossible odds…
| 227 |
SpaceJesus Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:54:39pm |
re: #221 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Wanna go streaking?
Show up to the confederate ball with my very own
| 228 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:54:42pm |
re: #211 Idle Drifter
Very true. Most of this is just rhetoric to play up the stupid. Any armed revolt in the country would be put down in a relatively short amount of time. However, it’s the not the large organized army of secessionists that has me worried. It’s small and the individual efforts that cause me the greater concern. DC Snipers and the Oklahoma City bombing come to mind concerning the trouble a small group or individual that had too much koolaid to drink can cause with little to no warning.
the NM Ntl Guard would plough through any goofball new wave confeds like a hot knife through butter…don’t fuck with those guys…the whole idea is silly
| 229 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:55:38pm |
| 230 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:56:03pm |
re: #218 albusteve
yup, exactly right…he underestimated Meade, who had superior ground for his artillery…it was a disaster from the beginning and historians will forever wonder wtf was he thinking?…how in the world could Lee presume to flank the Union by taking Little Round Top?, a small piece of the larger fight…and how was it Lee didn’t consider Meades troops pouring into the fight?…rebel bravery was a tactical myth in terms of actually taking ground, and Getysburg was all about terrain…Lee fucked up monumentally
A recent show on History Channel or such showed through an experiment how much the rail fence across the field tore up Pickett’s charge. The time it added to their exposure, and the shelter offered by the roadway destroyed the momentum.
| 231 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:56:49pm |
re: #213 Decatur Deb
US Army has a Camp Red Cloud. There is no Fort Custer.
Fort Custer…Battle Creek, Michigan
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
Red Cloud was the perfect antithesis to Custer…I cannot denounce Custer enough
| 232 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:56:54pm |
re: #214 jamesfirecat
In short, there will be no second civil war, but the southern militias could do to the US what the Taliban does to Afghanistan … I don’t mean that as an insult, just saying they could be a roving band who stays away from most cities strikes quickly with IEDs and then vanishes into the wilderness…
For a while at least…
Not going to happen. There really is no motivation for 99.999 percent of Americans to do any such thing. Those who do get the FBI on their ass.
| 233 |
SpaceJesus Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:57:04pm |
re: #229 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
i always leave the other one in orbit when i return to earth. it’s like a satellite that takes care of things while im away
| 234 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:57:42pm |
re: #233 SpaceJesus
i always leave the other one in orbit when i return to earth. it’s like a satellite that takes care of things while im away
Quantum entanglement, eh?
| 236 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:58:17pm |
re: #222 wlewisiii
Actually there is. Fort Custer Training Center opened in 1917. It’s Michigan National Guard and located just outside of Battle Creek, MI. He was with the Michigan Volunteers during the ACW so I suppose that’s somewhat appropriate.
State NG, not on the HQDA list of Post/Camps/Stations.
| 237 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:59:08pm |
re: #230 Decatur Deb
A recent show on History Channel or such showed through an experiment how much the rail fence across the field tore up Pickett’s charge. The time it added to their exposure, and the shelter offered by the roadway destroyed the momentum.
Sadly, this is the same History Channel that subsequently decided to pander to the Wingnut Brigade (the Eleventy-First Chairborne).
| 238 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:59:45pm |
re: #228 albusteve
the NM Ntl Guard would plough through any goofball new wave confeds like a hot knife through butter…don’t fuck with those guys…the whole idea is silly
Well, don’t think there might not be issues within guard units. Back, gah, 20 years ago now, there was nearly civil violence over the native tribes exercising rights granted under treaty with the US federal government. We felt we would loose about 20% of our manpower to people supporting those opposing the Indians and unwilling to be peacekeepers. The internal stresses in these hypotheticals could b worse.
| 239 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:59:46pm |
I’m done debating the merits of Assange and Wikileaks…..
Assange, Wikileaks and LGF
I’ve laid out my reasons and I really don’t think it’s something that should be promoted on LGF. I know Charles doesn’t like content complaints but I’ll try to let it rest. I’ve said my peace.
| 240 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 10, 2010 7:59:50pm |
re: #231 albusteve
Fort Custer…Battle Creek, Michigan
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]Red Cloud was the perfect antithesis to Custer…I cannot denounce Custer enough
A careful read of AR 385-10 shows a mythical Fort Benedict Arnold, RI. Hee, hee, hee.
| 241 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:00:23pm |
re: #216 Floral Giraffe
LOL!
My niece was two and we were on a long road trip, when she started screaming & sobbing like a banshee. Had never happened before. A quick stop at Mickey Dee’s for “french fries” which was what we thought she was screaming about. Turns out her shoe was untied. LOL! She’s a great kid, and it was funny, once we’d tied her shoe, and rested for a while.
heheh.
Two-year-olds are mysterious and wonderful.
They like things just so, and woe be unto anyone who’s around if things aren’t just so.
| 242 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:00:38pm |
re: #230 Decatur Deb
A recent show on History Channel or such showed through an experiment how much the rail fence across the field tore up Pickett’s charge. The time it added to their exposure, and the shelter offered by the roadway destroyed the momentum.
Gettysburg is an awesome place…I have been there a few times and I urge anyone interested to go there…a remarkable park
| 243 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:01:09pm |
re: #237 Dark_Falcon
Sadly, this is the same History Channel that subsequently decided to pander to the Wingnut Brigade (the Eleventy-First Chairborne).
By doing what exactly Dark?
| 244 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:01:25pm |
re: #225 Dark_Falcon
But please give the Army of the Potomac its due. The Union troops fought hard and it had its own leaders of high quality, with Winfield Scott Hancock and G.K. Warren heading the list.
of course they did…but the fight was over before it even started
| 245 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:03:51pm |
re: #240 Decatur Deb
A careful read of AR 385-10 shows a mythical Fort Benedict Arnold, RI. Hee, hee, hee.
what?…no stone walls and palisades?…dammit!
| 246 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:04:07pm |
re: #243 jamesfirecat
By doing what exactly Dark?
By running those Sons of Confederate Veterans commercials.
| 247 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:04:28pm |
re: #239 Killgore Trout
I find the entire thing absolutely baffling.
| 248 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:05:09pm |
re: #239 Killgore Trout
I’m done debating the merits of Assange and Wikileaks…
Assange, Wikileaks and LGF
I’ve laid out my reasons and I really don’t think it’s something that should be promoted on LGF. I know Charles doesn’t like content complaints but I’ll try to let it rest. I’ve said my peace.
Enjoyed it, Killgore!
I didn’t see it as a content complaint, it’s your reasons why you cannot, will not get on board with Assange-support.
| 249 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:07:50pm |
re: #246 Dark_Falcon
By running those Sons of Confederate Veterans commercials.
Ah okay yeah… that is a pretty bad thing to do.
Granted I wouldn’t know because I don’t watch History Channel that much anymore, all the good Hitler stuff is on the military history channel now….
| 250 |
Idle Drifter Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:08:35pm |
re: #244 albusteve
of course they did…but the fight was over before it even started
Watched a similar analysis on the battle of the Bulge in which the Germans didn’t perform the proper intelligence gathering or briefing their commanders on the ground. Logistics alone not to mention Hilter’s constant involvement with tactical command doomed it from the beginning. The fight still happened and no one the ground at the time knew the overall come so readily.
| 251 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:09:28pm |
re: #249 jamesfirecat
Ah okay yeah… that is a pretty bad thing to do.
Granted I wouldn’t know because I don’t watch History Channel that much anymore, all the
goodHitler stuff is on the military history channel now…
After a certain point, you realize you’ve seen all the WWII footage they really have.
| 252 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:09:30pm |
I hate Custer, but when he slammed into Stuarts point, outnumbered 5 to 1 or whatever, the ensuing brawl must have been one eye poppin fight, one for the books and he deserves credit for his bravery….he was right in the front of the melee, shooting and slashing…Stuart freaked out when those Michigan boys showed up, and it very well may have turned it right there and then
| 254 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:10:52pm |
re: #251 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
After a certain point, you realize you’ve seen all the WWII footage they really have.
I don’t think I’ve reached that point, I would happily watch more shoot out and dog fights if military history channel waspart of a basic cable package…..
| 255 |
Idle Drifter Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:12:05pm |
re: #254 jamesfirecat
I don’t think I’ve reached that point, I would happily watch more shoot out and dog fights if military history channel waspart of a basic cable package…
I like the fact the Military Channel has few and very short commericial breaks.
| 256 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:13:00pm |
re: #251 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
After a certain point, you realize you’ve seen all the WWII footage they really have.
There is still a mountain of stuff out there, German and Warsaw Pact archives. I have the reel number for the gun-camera footage of the shootdown of the Decatur Deb. Don’t know if I can or want to go there.
| 257 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:13:52pm |
re: #250 Idle Drifter
Watched a similar analysis on the battle of the Bulge in which the Germans didn’t perform the proper intelligence gathering or briefing their commanders on the ground. Logistics alone not to mention Hilter’s constant involvement with tactical command doomed it from the beginning. The fight still happened and no one the ground at the time knew the overall come so readily.
Hitler simply underestimated the American will to fight to the death…the road to Bastogne was a brilliant and heroic blocking strategy, littered with GI bodies…that was the real fight, and when the Germans wiped out unit after unit…he was outa gas
| 258 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:15:15pm |
re: #255 Idle Drifter
I like the fact the Military Channel has few and very short commericial breaks.
I still dig Gunny….
COMMIE WATERMELLONS!
| 259 |
Idle Drifter Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:16:58pm |
re: #257 albusteve
Hitler simply underestimated the American will to fight to the death…the road to Bastogne was a brilliant and heroic blocking strategy, littered with GI bodies…that was the real fight, and when the Germans wiped out unit after unit…he was outa gas
Best quote ever: Nuts.
| 260 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:18:09pm |
re: #259 Idle Drifter
Best quote ever: Nuts.
Somehow all the more profound for not actually being a curse word….
| 262 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:20:22pm |
re: #259 Idle Drifter
Best quote ever: Nuts.
don’t mess with the Airborne…the pit bulls of the Army…rifles to bayonet, to Kabars, to fists….real tough guys
| 263 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:20:54pm |
re: #259 Idle Drifter
Best quote ever: Nuts.
True. And the way the 101st beat off the subsequent German attack was a triumph of preparation and determination. The ability of the paratroopers ability to hold the line even when flanked was well match by the M18 Hellcat finally be used in the quick reaction role it was meant for. Put together with good leadership, these let the Screaming Eagles succeed against German assault tactics that would have broken lesser forces.
| 264 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:23:35pm |
re: #248 reine.de.tout
Enjoyed it, Killgore!
I didn’t see it as a content complaint, it’s your reasons why you cannot, will not get on board with Assange-support.
Thanks. I got an upding from Charles so I think I’m in the clear.
| 265 |
Idle Drifter Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:25:24pm |
| 266 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:26:59pm |
re: #263 Dark_Falcon
True. And the way the 101st beat off the subsequent German attack was a triumph of preparation and determination. The ability of the paratroopers ability to hold the line even when flanked was well match by the M18 Hellcat finally be used in the quick reaction role it was meant for. Put together with good leadership, these let the Screaming Eagles succeed against German assault tactics that would have broken lesser forces.
and consider all the targets for Thunderbolts and Mustangs when the weather broke….who says God doesn’t choose sides?
| 267 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:28:00pm |
re: #257 albusteve
Hitler simply underestimated the American will to fight to the death…the road to Bastogne was a brilliant and heroic blocking strategy, littered with GI bodies…that was the real fight, and when the Germans wiped out unit after unit…he was outa gas
I just read a good book “Alamo in the Ardennes on the delaying action fought by the 28th ID and elements of the 9th & 10th AD. Their sacrifices allowed the 101 enough time to get to Bastogne for the siege.
The 28th, especially, was slaughtered but kept fighting till they had nothing left.
| 268 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:28:53pm |
| 269 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:30:33pm |
re: #267 wlewisiii
I just read a good book “Alamo in the Ardennes on the delaying action fought by the 28th ID and elements of the 9th & 10th AD. Their sacrifices allowed the 101 enough time to get to Bastogne for the siege.
The 28th, especially, was slaughtered but kept fighting till they had nothing left.
I’ve read that book….hell of story eh?…I was going to recommend it, but didn’t think anyone would be interested
| 270 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:31:27pm |
re: #264 Killgore Trout
Thanks. I got an upding from Charles so I think I’m in the clear.
supporting Assange is folly…good for you
| 271 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:32:57pm |
Citizen Soldier by Stephen Ambrose….a must read for war nuts
| 272 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:34:48pm |
re: #269 albusteve
I’ve read that book…hell of story eh?…I was going to recommend it, but didn’t think anyone would be interested
It’s good stuff. I’m on to “A Time For Trumpets” now.
I’m often amused at where differences and agreements between lizards lie. It’s rather different, sometimes, than party lines would indicate…
| 273 |
calochortus Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:35:15pm |
re: #242 albusteve
Gettysburg is an awesome place…I have been there a few times and I urge anyone interested to go there…a remarkable park
Speaking as someone with virtually no interest in military history, I will second that suggestion. We went there (and to a few other civil war battlefields) when we lived in PA. I was stunned to imagine anyone thinking that Pickett’s Charge was a good idea.
On a lighter note I was also impressed that they were able to shoot the eponymous miniseries there without getting any of the bazillion monuments in the scenes…
| 274 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:36:00pm |
re: #267 wlewisiii
I just read a good book “Alamo in the Ardennes on the delaying action fought by the 28th ID and elements of the 9th & 10th AD. Their sacrifices allowed the 101 enough time to get to Bastogne for the siege.
The 28th, especially, was slaughtered but kept fighting till they had nothing left.
The 28th ID did not have the all-around defense of the 101st and they faced a harder foe than the 2nd and 99th Divisions further north. German flanking tactics cost them dear, but they still fought and bought the time needed with blood. It was that sort of defense in depth that was the secret to defeating the panzers. A single line, no matter how bravely held, could not stop the Germans, it took a set of lines to wear them down. But that lesson had been learned and it was used to great effect.
| 275 |
Idle Drifter Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:38:09pm |
re: #270 albusteve
supporting Assange is folly…good for you
4chan. You’ll never find a greater hive of scum and lunacy…..
Now that I think about it they’d take that as a compliment.
| 276 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:41:11pm |
re: #272 wlewisiii
It’s good stuff. I’m on to “A Time For Trumpets” now.
I’m often amused at where differences and agreements between lizards lie. It’s rather different, sometimes, than party lines would indicate…
I’m into Alexander now…can’t get enough of him…Pressfield is one of my favorite authors
| 277 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:41:31pm |
re: #270 albusteve
supporting Assange is folly…good for you
Whenever you find yourself on the same side as Ron Paul it’s time to stop and seriously think about some shit.
| 278 |
prairiefire Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:41:39pm |
re: #256 Decatur Deb
There is still a mountain of stuff out there, German and Warsaw Pact archives. I have the reel number for the gun-camera footage of the shootdown of the Decatur Deb. Don’t know if I can or want to go there.
Cause it’s your Pops?
Can you put it in a historical context?
| 279 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:43:09pm |
Given the conversation here tonight, is anyone else here a player of board war games? I’ve enjoyed moving cardboard for well over 30 years now.
| 280 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:44:23pm |
re: #279 wlewisiii
Given the conversation here tonight, is anyone else here a player of board war games? I’ve enjoyed moving cardboard for well over 30 years now.
Swapped from cardboard to model wargamming about 25 years ago.
| 281 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:44:25pm |
re: #274 Dark_Falcon
The 28th ID did not have the all-around defense of the 101st and they faced a harder foe than the 2nd and 99th Divisions further north. German flanking tactics cost them dear, but they still fought and bought the time needed with blood. It was that sort of defense in depth that was the secret to defeating the panzers. A single line, no matter how bravely held, could not stop the Germans, it took a set of lines to wear them down. But that lesson had been learned and it was used to great effect.
good for you…always filling in the details…same tactic, by and large, the Shermans used to defeat heavier German armor….death by a thousand cuts and it takes alot of guts to pick away at superior forces
| 282 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:44:30pm |
re: #256 Decatur Deb
There is still a mountain of stuff out there, German and Warsaw Pact archives. I have the reel number for the gun-camera footage of the shootdown of the Decatur Deb. Don’t know if I can or want to go there.
I’d hate to make that decision. {{DD}}
| 283 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:44:55pm |
re: #277 Killgore Trout
Whenever you find yourself on the same side as Ron Paul it’s time to stop and seriously think about some shit.
two words
potato juice
| 284 |
Mr Pancakes Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:45:02pm |
re: #279 wlewisiii
Given the conversation here tonight, is anyone else here a player of board war games? I’ve enjoyed moving cardboard for well over 30 years now.
My daughter and I like Stratego and Battleship, does that count?
| 285 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:46:06pm |
re: #284 Mr Pancakes
My daughter and I like Stratego and Battleship, does that count?
As long as you enjoy them :D
| 286 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:46:21pm |
re: #275 Idle Drifter
4chan. You’ll never find a greater hive of scum and lunacy…
Now that I think about it they’d take that as a compliment.
Stay on Target!
| 287 |
Mr Pancakes Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:46:45pm |
| 288 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:47:22pm |
re: #284 Mr Pancakes
My daughter and I like Stratego and Battleship, does that count?
when my kids were little they loved Battleship….”prepare to fire!”
| 289 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:47:58pm |
| 290 |
Mr Pancakes Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:47:58pm |
re: #288 albusteve
when my kids were little they loved Battleship…”prepare to fire!”
Yea man….. You sunk my Battleship!!!!!!!
| 291 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:48:01pm |
re: #281 albusteve
good for you…always filling in the details…same tactic, by and large, the Shermans used to defeat heavier German armor…death by a thousand cuts and it takes alot of guts to pick away at superior forces
Interestingly, none of the German AFV used in the final attack on Christmas were Panthers or Tigers. They were all StuG III assault guns and Panzer Mark IVs.
| 292 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:48:48pm |
| 293 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:50:59pm |
re: #291 Dark_Falcon
Interestingly, none of the German AFV used in the final attack on Christmas were Panthers or Tigers. They were all StuG III assault guns and Panzer Mark IVs.
thanks….I did not know that, or had forgotten
| 294 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:51:56pm |
| 295 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:52:12pm |
re: #279 wlewisiii
Given the conversation here tonight, is anyone else here a player of board war games? I’ve enjoyed moving cardboard for well over 30 years now.
My fondest Christmas memories were from my late teens and early 20’s. We would play all night marathons of Diplomacy and smoke pot in a friend’s basement by a roaring fire.
| 296 |
cliffster Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:52:48pm |
re: #284 Mr Pancakes
My daughter and I like Stratego and Battleship, does that count?
stratego is a great game. I really have no one to play with but if I did.. my bombs would be exactly where you think they’re not.
| 297 |
albusteve Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:53:06pm |
| 298 |
Mr Pancakes Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:53:29pm |
re: #291 Dark_Falcon
Interestingly, none of the German AFV used in the final attack on Christmas were Panthers or Tigers. They were all StuG III assault guns and Panzer Mark IVs.
If any of you have Netflix……. I highly recommend “Ken Burns The War”. Brutal history. It’s available on instant play.
| 299 |
Mr Pancakes Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:54:25pm |
re: #296 cliffster
stratego is a great game. I really have no one to play with but if I did.. my bombs would be exactly where you think they’re not.
Yea…… my daughter has figured that out and now is gives me a run for my money.
| 300 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:54:59pm |
re: #291 Dark_Falcon
Interestingly, none of the German AFV used in the final attack on Christmas were Panthers or Tigers. They were all StuG III assault guns and Panzer Mark IVs.
That’s because right up to the end, there were far more of both of those. They were much easier to build and, in many ways, better vehicles. Certainly far more reliable than the later vehicles. They were also easier for the 3” armed Hellcat to destroy ;)
American armor development … now that’s serious nightmare fuel from about 1930 to 1970. A couple of good designs, more ok ones and a lot of real stinkers in there (M60A2 “Starship” anyone? No the name was not a complement). Then the got it spectacularly right for once and named it for the best armor commander of WWII - Abrams.
| 301 |
prairiefire Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:55:35pm |
Mr. Hitchens goes after Tea Partiers.[Link: www.vanityfair.com…]
| 302 |
Mr Pancakes Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:57:54pm |
re: #300 wlewisiii
That’s because right up to the end, there were far more of both of those. They were much easier to build and, in many ways, better vehicles. Certainly far more reliable than the later vehicles. They were also easier for the 3” armed Hellcat to destroy ;)
American armor development … now that’s serious nightmare fuel from about 1930 to 1970. A couple of good designs, more ok ones and a lot of real stinkers in there (M60A2 “Starship” anyone? No the name was not a complement). Then the got it spectacularly right for once and named it for the best armor commander of WWII - Abrams.
They just pulled a hellcat out of a local lake here after 65 years.
| 303 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 10, 2010 8:58:11pm |
re: #300 wlewisiii
That’s because right up to the end, there were far more of both of those. They were much easier to build and, in many ways, better vehicles. Certainly far more reliable than the later vehicles. They were also easier for the 3” armed Hellcat to destroy ;)
They were also more reliable, so if they had broken through they would have been able to actually make it to the center of Bastogne without breaking down.
American armor development … now that’s serious nightmare fuel from about 1930 to 1970. A couple of good designs, more ok ones and a lot of real stinkers in there (M60A2 “Starship” anyone? No the name was not a complement). Then the got it spectacularly right for once and named it for the best armor commander of WWII - Abrams.
The M60A1 and A3 were pretty good tanks, but not till the M1 did we get a true world beater.
| 304 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 10, 2010 9:01:02pm |
| 305 |
Mr Pancakes Fri, Dec 10, 2010 9:01:27pm |
re: #304 Dark_Falcon
That was a Helldiver, not a Hellcat. It was a Navy dive-bomber that mostly saw service in Pacific.
Right….. thanks for the correction.
| 306 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Dec 10, 2010 9:03:13pm |
re: #303 Dark_Falcon
They were also more reliable, so if they had broken through they would have been able to actually make it to the center of Bastogne without breaking down.
The M60A1 and A3 were pretty good tanks, but not till the M1 did we get a true world beater.
I served in a M60A3 BN in Germany. Very good tank, the culmination of 40 years of development. But the M1 remains the only great tank we’ve ever fielded. It’s got some real weak spots (weight, fuel consumption rates, thermal signature, and a few others) but we’ve never faced an opponent able to exploit them…
| 307 |
Idle Drifter Fri, Dec 10, 2010 9:07:26pm |
| 308 |
Idle Drifter Fri, Dec 10, 2010 9:11:57pm |
The very fact his name was really Porkins in the movie makes me laugh every time.
| 309 |
laZardo Fri, Dec 10, 2010 9:13:38pm |
re: #303 Dark_Falcon
They were also more reliable, so if they had broken through they would have been able to actually make it to the center of Bastogne without breaking down.
The M60A1 and A3 were pretty good tanks, but not till the M1 did we get a true world beater.
And then came the T-90?
| 310 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Dec 10, 2010 9:18:55pm |
re: #309 laZardo
And then came the T-90?
Let’s simply say that no one knows which is best in the unclassified world.
I’d bet on the M1, personally, even though I can’t tell you why, ‘k?
And if I had terrain advantage (shooting downwards at over 1500 meters range) I’d even take M60A3’s ;) The L5 rifled gun was insanely great.
| 311 |
palomino Fri, Dec 10, 2010 9:21:19pm |
“Sons and daughters of the South stood for liberty.” Really? By fighting to protect slavery?
It’s as if some southerners live in a land that time forgot, where faith trumps fact, and feelings trump reason. In this bizarro world, the South’s cause was noble, blacks were content being slaves, blacks are the real racists today, Mexicans are trying to take over America, gays are a huge threat, and all Muslims want jihad. Not unique to the South, but it’s no coincidence that the tea party’s base of power is in southern states.
Another especially southern problem is its faith-based populism, which has no trust for science. Hence the antipathy to evolution, AGW, stem cell research, etc.
This right’s hostility toward science is likely the main reason only 6% of scientists identify themselves as Republicans. Eleventy times as many self-identify as Dems. Well, I guess if you’re building bridges back to 1860, then science doesn’t really matter anyway.
| 313 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Dec 10, 2010 9:23:47pm |
re: #277 Killgore Trout
Whenever you find yourself on the same side as Ron Paul it’s time to stop and seriously think about some shit.
That should be carved in stone somewhere.
| 314 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Dec 10, 2010 9:29:38pm |
re: #313 Slumbering Behemoth
That should be carved in stone somewhere.
I’m chiseling as fast as I can but the slugs are eating my kale, big mess after my venison curry experiment and these cellos don’t fix themselves.
/Namaste, y’all
| 315 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Dec 10, 2010 9:29:50pm |
re: #1 Sergey Romanov
“Liberty” means something very different to these folks. Reminds me of the groups named Liberty Lobby.
In the excellent map of the distribution of slavery linked by wlewisiii in pages, I noticed that Liberty County GA was 72.7% enslaved in 1860. It was also evident that several of the areas with very strong Unionist sentiment; western Virginia, western North Carolina, and north Texas; had very small slave populations, that is, little vested interest in slavery.
| 316 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Dec 10, 2010 9:29:56pm |
| 318 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Dec 10, 2010 9:34:30pm |
re: #311 palomino
“Sons and daughters of the South stood for liberty.” Really? By fighting to protect slavery?
It’s as if some southerners live in a land that time forgot, where faith trumps fact, and feelings trump reason. In this bizarro world, the South’s cause was noble, blacks were content being slaves, blacks are the real racists today, Mexicans are trying to take over America, gays are a huge threat, and all Muslims want jihad. Not unique to the South, but it’s no coincidence that the tea party’s base of power is in southern states.
Another especially southern problem is its faith-based populism, which has no trust for science. Hence the antipathy to evolution, AGW, stem cell research, etc.
This right’s hostility toward science is likely the main reason only 6% of scientists identify themselves as Republicans. Eleventy times as many self-identify as Dems. Well, I guess if you’re building bridges back to 1860, then science doesn’t really matter anyway.
Unless you’re building a time machine to export AK-47s to the Army of Northern Virginia. See Guns of the South by Harry Turtledove. In that case, the time machine had to be brought in by meddling foreigners (South African racists), possibly proving yet again that Harry really knows his stuff.
| 319 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Fri, Dec 10, 2010 9:34:39pm |
| 320 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Dec 10, 2010 9:35:05pm |
Sleep a deep, restful sleep, Sir.
Dream of wonderful things.
Namaste, all.
| 322 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Dec 10, 2010 9:38:33pm |
Something that’s rattling through my mind is that this approach to Civil War history—the whitewashing of slavery and the causes of the war—seems to me similar to the kind of mindset you see where any criticism of US history is seen as ‘blame America first’, unpatriotic and unwarranted.
It’s as though people work themselves into a mental corner where admitting that anyone you identify with ever did any wrong, ever, is impossible. You have to rewrite the history. You never, never, never admit to being even tangentially connected to an unworthy cause, and you’ll lie your ass off to maintain that.
| 323 |
palomino Fri, Dec 10, 2010 9:38:50pm |
re: #318 Shiplord Kirel
Unless you’re building a time machine to export AK-47s to the Army of Northern Virginia. See Guns of the South by Harry Turtledove. In that case, the time machine had to be brought in by meddling foreigners (South African racists), possibly proving yet again that Harry really knows his stuff.
Very funny.
But what self-respecting southerner could use an AK-47? That’s a Russkie gun, even the bullets are commies. Oh, what’s a bitter southern revisionist to do?
| 324 |
laZardo Fri, Dec 10, 2010 9:42:42pm |
re: #323 palomino
Very funny.
But what self-respecting southerner could use an AK-47? That’s a Russkie gun, even the bullets are commies. Oh, what’s a bitter southern revisionist to do?
Back then, there wasn’t any such thing as “comm’nism.” May as well be “heav’n sent.”
| 325 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Dec 10, 2010 9:42:50pm |
re: #279 wlewisiii
Given the conversation here tonight, is anyone else here a player of board war games? I’ve enjoyed moving cardboard for well over 30 years now.
I miss having a working version of Axis & Allies for the PC. :(
| 327 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Dec 10, 2010 9:45:03pm |
I read an excerpt of one of the Turtledove novels once, but all I recall is that one of the South Africans gets shot, and reveals his flak jacket to one of the Confederates, who keeps wondering why the amazing armor is called a ‘flapjack’.
| 328 |
goddamnedfrank Fri, Dec 10, 2010 9:45:45pm |
re: #322 SanFranciscoZionist
Something that’s rattling through my mind is that this approach to Civil War history—the whitewashing of slavery and the causes of the war—seems to me similar to the kind of mindset you see where any criticism of US history is seen as ‘blame America first’, unpatriotic and unwarranted.
It’s as though people work themselves into a mental corner where admitting that anyone you identify with ever did any wrong, ever, is impossible. You have to rewrite the history. You never, never, never admit to being even tangentially connected to an unworthy cause, and you’ll lie your ass off to maintain that.
Face it, introspection sucks.
“Nathan Jr accepts me for what I am! And I think you better had, too! You know I’m okay, you’re okay! That there’s what it is!”
| 329 |
palomino Fri, Dec 10, 2010 9:46:58pm |
re: #322 SanFranciscoZionist
Something that’s rattling through my mind is that this approach to Civil War history—the whitewashing of slavery and the causes of the war—seems to me similar to the kind of mindset you see where any criticism of US history is seen as ‘blame America first’, unpatriotic and unwarranted.
It’s as though people work themselves into a mental corner where admitting that anyone you identify with ever did any wrong, ever, is impossible. You have to rewrite the history. You never, never, never admit to being even tangentially connected to an unworthy cause, and you’ll lie your ass off to maintain that.
I was born and raised in Houston, which is in east TX and thus more Dixie than the rest of the state. Anyway, I’ll throw in my two cents. Southerners are the only Americans to really experience first hand (and on their soil) what it’s like to lose a war. Thus many traditionalist southerners carry around a big chip on their shoulders. Most whites in the South have moved on, but you’ll still hear predictions of the South rising again or calls for secession from a small but vocal minority.
And I don’t think many southerners have ever really come to grips with the evil of slavery or the horrors committed by their forefathers. Their excuses tend towards “everyone was doing it” or “the North did it too” or “that was a long time ago”, as if somehow this all eliminates any moral culpability. This is what’s most troubling from a historical standpoint. Southerners want to celebrate their ancestors with no recognition that they committed atrocities.
| 330 |
palomino Fri, Dec 10, 2010 9:48:19pm |
re: #324 laZardo
Back then, there wasn’t any such thing as “comm’nism.” May as well be “heav’n sent.”
But if you’re sending Russian made AK-47s back through a time portal, the communism will time travel with the guns.
| 331 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Dec 10, 2010 9:50:13pm |
re: #322 SanFranciscoZionist
Something that’s rattling through my mind is that this approach to Civil War history—the whitewashing of slavery and the causes of the war—seems to me similar to the kind of mindset you see where any criticism of US history is seen as ‘blame America first’, unpatriotic and unwarranted.
Though I am a firm believer in the concept of “American Exceptionalism”, I do not believe that means we or our nation are perfect, or without flaws. US history is what it is, and it does us no good to engage in revisionism or sugar coating.
| 332 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Dec 10, 2010 9:51:39pm |
re: #323 palomino
Very funny.
But what self-respecting southerner could use an AK-47? That’s a Russkie gun, even the bullets are commies. Oh, what’s a bitter southern revisionist to do?
They just didn’t know any better back then, though people like Robert Lewis Dabney were quick to educate them (see #65).
Even so, for well informed southerners (a small minority), the Russians might have been baddies even then. The decidedly non-communist Russian Empire was the only one of the major European powers to openly support the Union during the Civil War. In the others, especially Britain and neo-Napoleonic France, the ruling classes leaned strongly toward the Confederacy but hesitated to act for fear of revolution.
| 333 |
TedStriker Fri, Dec 10, 2010 9:53:10pm |
re: #73 Shiplord Kirel
The Sons of Confederate Veterans are really doing their ancestors a disservice with this transparent revisionism. It isn’t necessary to justify the Confederacy to be able to honor those who fought for it.
After all, you don’t have to be a Nazi to honor German World War II veterans.
Precisely…I certainly respect Gunther Rall and Adolf Galland, two of the best Luftwaffe aces (among many in WWII), even though they were on the losing side. Hell, IIRC, they both served in the West German air force from the 1950s until they retired.
| 334 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 10, 2010 10:04:00pm |
re: #330 palomino
But if you’re sending Russian made AK-47s back through a time portal, the communism will time travel with the guns.
Remember that Harry Turtledove is not a neo-Confederate. So he is not burdened by their insanities.
| 335 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 10, 2010 10:06:47pm |
re: #309 laZardo
And then came the T-90?
The M1A3 is a good bit better than the T-90. It has better armor and electronics and its much faster. Though that speed advantage has been reduced a bit in the newest T-90’s, since they have more powerful diesels than the earlier ones.
| 337 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Dec 10, 2010 10:43:40pm |
re: #185 Idle Drifter
With all the crazy rhetoric on secession I’d hate to revisit the past though with more modern weapons.
Orson Scott Card has a sci-fi novel, kind of sort of aimed at the juvenile audience but as with Heinlein’s writing for that audience, packed with a bit of a punch so that it’s tolerable adult fare.
Title is Empire. Premise is there’s this Octavian Caesar -like character gunning for the post of Emperor of the United States, but, as with Octavian the original, without the title. The forms of democracy would remain.
(side remark: the constitutional amendment limiting a president to 2.5 terms is an essential bulwark against this, if we enforce it to the letter, no exceptions nohow. And, by any means necessary.)
Anyhow, at the end of the story, he’s halfway brought it off. He’s president and on track to consolidate, having won every single electoral vote. It’s set in near-contemporary times, but with a few futuristic ingredients, e.g. autonomous combat robots. The war itself is mostly a Sitzkrieg since neither side dares get down and dirty.
| 338 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Dec 10, 2010 10:47:39pm |
re: #279 wlewisiii
Given the conversation here tonight, is anyone else here a player of board war games? I’ve enjoyed moving cardboard for well over 30 years now.
I’ve sort of switched over to turn based internet. TOAW is my metier.
| 339 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Dec 10, 2010 11:04:57pm |
re: #322 SanFranciscoZionist
Thinking on this more I find myself wanting to tweek the famous quote “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it”.
In such context “Those who seek to revise the past are determined to recreate it”.
In those bent on revising the history of the American Civil War there is much talk of “State’s Rights” and secession, and obviously a desire to recreate an atmosphere that sparked the Civil War.
And with those who seek to revise the history of our Founding Fathers as anti-secularists who established a “Christian Nation”, there is an obvious desire to recreate the conditions that led to our Founders to establish a secular nation.
| 340 |
Feline Fearless Leader Sat, Dec 11, 2010 6:17:24am |
re: #162 lostlakehiker
I hadn’t heard about that. I’m not calling you a liar, but I’m curious. If you happen to have a source, I’d like to read about the details.
I think it got a mention in passing in Sherman’s autobiography. Fused shells used as a sort of minefield in a few places. During the March to the Sea, and also on the approaches to Fort MacAllister near Savannah. The former case was were Confederate prisoners were sent forward to clear it.
Doing something like that was not considered “sporting” in the rules of war at the time. It’s irregular warfare since you’re not facing the opponent directly (and in uniform), and simply trying to obstruct to gain time - and doing so in a way that causes injuries and takes lives. (e.g. chopping down trees to block roads is fine since you’re not killing soldiers doing so.)
And uniformed armies have generally frowned upon irregular warfare of this sort all along.
| 341 |
Feline Fearless Leader Sat, Dec 11, 2010 6:19:27am |
re: #279 wlewisiii
Given the conversation here tonight, is anyone else here a player of board war games? I’ve enjoyed moving cardboard for well over 30 years now.
I’ve been board wargaming on and off for 20+ years. Lack of time and opponents pushed towards solitaire games quite a bit, but I still get a face-to-face game in now and then.
| 342 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Dec 11, 2010 7:51:03am |
re: #341 oaktree
I’ve been board wargaming on and off for 20+ years. Lack of time and opponents pushed towards solitaire games quite a bit, but I still get a face-to-face game in now and then.
Check for gaming conventions in your area. They’re a great place to meet fellow gamers and join gaming groups.
| 343 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Dec 11, 2010 2:20:16pm |
re: #322 SanFranciscoZionist
Something that’s rattling through my mind is that this approach to Civil War history—the whitewashing of slavery and the causes of the war—seems to me similar to the kind of mindset you see where any criticism of US history is seen as ‘blame America first’, unpatriotic and unwarranted.
It’s as though people work themselves into a mental corner where admitting that anyone you identify with ever did any wrong, ever, is impossible. You have to rewrite the history. You never, never, never admit to being even tangentially connected to an unworthy cause, and you’ll lie your ass off to maintain that.
this forever
| 344 |
Flavia Sun, Dec 12, 2010 12:15:50pm |
re: #61 lostlakehiker
Humph. My mother’s got stashed away a letter from a Tennessee preacher ancestor to one of his relatives, circa 1855. He brings up the evil of slavery and writes that it can come to no good end.
Nobody listened then either, of course. Well, too few. The letter would not have been written if no one was going to read it.
PLEASE make sure your mother donates that to a museum, or, at the very least, conserves it properly herself - an acid-free paper box is the least that should be done. PLEASE!
This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.
Comments are closed.
Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds
- Featured PagesClick to refresh
Once Praised, the Settlement to Help Sickened BP Oil Spill Workers Leaves Most With Nearly Nothing When a deadly explosion destroyed BP’s Deepwater Horizon drilling rig in the Gulf of Mexico, 134 million gallons of crude erupted into the sea over the next three months — and tens of thousands of ordinary people were hired ...
Cheechako
5 days ago
Views: 648 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1
Alone in a Bathroom: The Fear and Uncertainty of a Post-Roe Medication Abortion Angel tucked two white pills into each side of her mouth, bracing herself as they began to dissolve. Her deepest fears and anxieties took over. Angel had wanted to talk to a doctor before she took the pills to ... Cheechako
2 weeks ago
Views: 1,303 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 3
They Were Desperate to Get Pregnant. Then IVF Gave Them Extra Embryos. One morning last spring, Ashley Harrolle put her 1-year-old daughter down for a nap and went to the kitchen. She pulled up her fertility clinic’s contact information. It was time to make the call. In a freezer several hundred ... Cheechako
2 weeks ago
Views: 391 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1- Pictures From Today’s Exhibition of Paintings Done by Jane LilienthalPROPS TO MICHELE AND SAGEHEN FOR CATCHING THE SPELLING ERROR IN THE TITLE THAT MY DIABETIC EYES COULDN'T CATCH I wanted to share pictures of the art show I visited today. The portraits were created by the mother of my ...Joe Bacon ✅
3 weeks ago
Views: 479 • Comments: 1 • Rating: 11 
March FavoritesYou've seen these all already but looking back, just because. These are my favorite shots of this last month. That 1937 Zeiss Sonnar is such a gloriously wonderful bit of glass. Thanks for looking.
William Lewis
4 weeks ago
Views: 585 • Comments: 2 • Rating: 9
Russia’s New Combat Robots Blown Up by Drones Near Avdiivka When we landed on the moon, I thought about how science fiction had become real. Now, the robot wars have begun. It's more poignant somehow on the ground than in the missile wars we have in the air as ...
Rightwingconspirator
4 weeks ago
Views: 580 • Comments: 1 • Rating: 5
Why Did More Than 1,000 People Die After Police Subdued Them With Force That Isn’t Meant to Kill? An investigation led by The Associated Press has found that, over a decade, more than 1,000 people died after police subdued them through physical holds, stun guns, body blows and other force not intended to be lethal. More: Why ... Cheechako
4 weeks ago
Views: 567 • Comments: 1 • Rating: 5- A Closer Look at the Eastman State Bar DecisionTaking a few minutes away from work things to read through the Eastman decision. As I'm sure many of you know, Eastman was my law school con law professor. I knew him pretty well because I was also running in ...KGxvi
4 weeks ago
Views: 467 • Comments: 1 • Rating: 4
- Recent PagesClick to refresh
The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ... Cheechako
2 days ago
Views: 103 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ... Cheechako
2 weeks ago
Views: 268 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1
