Jon Stewart just reams the Republican Party in this classic segment, for killing the bill to provide health care for 9/11 first responders — one of the most disgusting moves yet from the all-new, all-crazy GOP.
1 |
garhighway Tue, Dec 14, 2010 9:56:43am |
Assuming the workers were on the job when they were exposed to the fumes from the pile, wouldn’t they get their health care through worker’s comp? Why would they need a special bill?
| 2 |
Flounder Tue, Dec 14, 2010 9:58:57am |
The dems pulled it so the bill can come up again.
| 3 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:01:10am |
re: #1 garhighway
A lot of workers weren’t on the job. I don’t know about the worker’s comp part, but I don’t think worker’s comp is intended to pay for healthcare.
| 4 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:01:31am |
| 5 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:01:49am |
| 6 |
lawhawk Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:06:16am |
re: #1 garhighway
The problem is that many of the affected individuals are finding it hard to obtain workers comp claims. For instance, one worker, who claimed he was ill as a result of working as a volunteer on the Pile for 28 days couldn’t receive workers comp because the NYS Workers Comp Board didn’t find sufficient evidence.
Illnesses resulting from 9/11 exposures (and the resulting cleanup) may not show themselves for years or decades, although some people (some figures may be in the hundreds) have already died from what they and their doctors are saying was 9/11 related illnesses.
The Zadroga Fund would provide additional compensation and would be set up like the general VCF administered by Ken Feinberg. It would further complement the $712 million settlement between the city and plaintiffs who sued over Ground Zero exposures. The Zadroga bill would also provide funding for additional screening and medical studies to track potential diseases resulting from long term exposures.
| 7 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:07:17am |
What reason would the GOP have for killing the responders bill?
| 8 |
Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:09:45am |
re: #7 Walter L. Newton
What reason would the GOP have for killing the responders bill?
To be bluntly honest, they view it as a handout to union workers. and that there are people faking illness to get money from the government. So that’s sufficient reason to kill the program for everyone.
| 9 |
lawhawk Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:10:04am |
This is a good backgrounder on the current political maneuverings and hypocrisy of the GOP’s latest vote to block the bill from coming to the floor for a vote.
| 11 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:11:27am |
re: #1 garhighway
Assuming the workers were on the job when they were exposed to the fumes from the pile, wouldn’t they get their health care through worker’s comp? Why would they need a special bill?
Because I’d be willing to bet many of them were just ordinary citizens who were nearby when the crash happened.
Or maybe some of them no longer have the jobs they had 8 years ago.
Or maybe some of them don’t have jobs at all anymore.
Or maybe there are just some issues where it doesn’t pay to be penny wise pound foolish…
| 12 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:11:39am |
re: #8 bloodstar
To be bluntly honest, they view it as a handout to union workers. and that there are people faking illness to get money from the government. So that’s sufficient reason to kill the program for everyone.
Link?
| 13 |
jaunte Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:12:40am |
re: #7 Walter L. Newton
Leverage on the tax cuts issue. The House passed the bill with bipartisan support, then something changed.
| 14 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:13:44am |
re: #2 Shropshire_Slasher
The dems pulled it so the bill can come up again.
And that totally excuses the way the GOP acted?
| 15 |
garhighway Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:14:59am |
re: #3 Obdicut
re: #6 lawhawk
Obdi, paying the costs of medical care for work-related injuries is a big part of what workers comp does.
Hawk, if the causation issue is unclear, wouldn’t the responder’s bill have the same issues? That is, if the medical condition isn’t related to time on the pile, then would the new bill respond?
My understanding is that the vast majority of the people on the pile were city employees of one stripe or another, or they were employees of the four contractors the city hired to remove the pile. So any work-related injuries any of those folks suffered would be appropriately paid under workers comp. I don’t know where your “hundreds dead” stat comes from, but I have only heard of one, and the medical causation on that individual wasn’t certain, either.
Understand, I am sympathetic to these people, and seeing them used as pawns is upsetting. But I suspect that the reality of this situation is more complicated than has been depicted so far.
| 16 |
Gus Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:17:02am |
Dumb move on the part of the GOP. These types of bills are as Jon Stewart says, a no brainer. The GOP basically handed the Democrats a PR coup on this issue.
| 17 |
Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:18:38am |
re: #12 Walter L. Newton
Link?
Lawhawk put up a good one that details the second point
Enzi said Republicans strongly support “the 9/11 heroes” but have “concerns about waste, fraud and abuse in the existing programs.”
He blamed the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health for mishandling 9/11 workers healthcare so far, said that Congress could not be spending money on questionable programs, and concluded by saying that a “flawed bill” should not be rushed through Congress in lame duck.
My first point about being an anti union vote is supposition based on past behavior of Republicans. Trying to look for links to back that supposition up.
| 18 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:20:41am |
re: #15 garhighway
I’m sorry, but I’m really not getting what you think has been misrepresented. Can you explain?
| 19 |
NJDhockeyfan Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:20:44am |
‘Shameless!’: Senate Rejects 9/11 Health Bill
Senate Republicans today rejected a bill to provide up to $7.4 billion in health care benefits and compensation to sick first responders of the 9/11 attacks.
The final vote tally of 57-42 was strictly along party lines, excluding Majority Leader Harry Reid changing his vote to no in order to reconsider the bill at a later date.
The GOP’s decision to block the bill infuriated Senate Democrats, who in the hours leading up to the vote had pleaded for Republicans to get on board.
“This vote is about being an American, because from the days at Bunker Hill, when the patriots put down their plows and took up their muskets to defend and create our freedom, we always tried to take care of them. We have done it again and again for our veterans, and the heroes of 9/11 are no different,” Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-NY, said on the Senate floor this morning.
However, Senate Republicans earlier this month vowed not to vote for any measures until the Senate had resolved the issues of the Bush tax cuts and government funding. Democrats today said that was no excuse for voting against the 9/11 bill.
That’s ridiculous. They should have passed it. I wonder how many of these politicians are gone next month?
| 20 |
Interesting Times Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:20:46am |
re: #14 jamesfirecat
And that totally excuses the way the GOP acted?
The GOP is so used to getting away with disgusting behavior that they’re basically trolling the nation at this point.
| 21 |
NJDhockeyfan Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:21:43am |
re: #20 publicityStunted
The GOP is so used to getting away with disgusting behavior that they’re basically trolling the nation at this point.
Both sides are guilty of doing that. It’s the Washington DC way.
| 22 |
garhighway Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:23:34am |
re: #18 Obdicut
I’m sorry, but I’m really not getting what you think has been misrepresented. Can you explain?
There seems to be an underlying assumption that this bill is the only way that workers on the pile will get their health care. I think that is largely incorrect.
| 23 |
jaunte Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:23:56am |
re: #16 Gus 802
Dumb move on the part of the GOP. These types of bills are as Jon Stewart says, a no brainer. The GOP basically handed the Democrats a PR coup on this issue.
From lawhawk’s link: ibtimes.com
As Maloney has pointed out previously, Christine Todd Whitman, EPA chief under George W. Bush, visited ground Zero five edays after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001 and declared that the air at the site was safe to breath. When the EPA records were finally made public, after a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit, it was revealed that Whitman and the Bush administration did not tell the truth. The air at Ground Zero was heavily toxic for weeks following the disaster.According to advocates for the responders and their families, approximately 900 people have so far died from ailments contracted while working on the pile, and that first responders are currently dying at a rate of three a month.
Since the government lied to these people about the risk in the first place, I think they at least owe them a debate on the bill.
| 24 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:24:33am |
re: #3 Obdicut
A lot of workers weren’t on the job. I don’t know about the worker’s comp part, but I don’t think worker’s comp is intended to pay for healthcare.
Different rules for different states, but Workers’ Comp is intended to be the sole remedy for on-the job injury care. It was designed to protect employers from liability, not to protect workers.
| 25 |
Stanley Sea Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:25:05am |
Breaking:
NBC: The stand alone bill to repeal DADT has been introduced in the House of Representatives.
| 26 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:25:21am |
re: #22 garhighway
There seems to be an underlying assumption that this bill is the only way that workers on the pile will get their health care. I think that is largely incorrect.
I don’t see anyone making that assumption. I think the assumption, which is a correct one, is that some of the responders are having difficulty getting health care otherwise.
| 27 |
Sionainn Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:28:22am |
| 28 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:29:15am |
| 29 |
Taqyia2Me Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:29:50am |
This action sucks and cannot be allowed to stand.
| 30 |
Charleston Chew Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:30:08am |
re: #16 Gus 802
Dumb move on the part of the GOP. These types of bills are as Jon Stewart says, a no brainer. The GOP basically handed the Democrats a PR coup on this issue.
Luckily for the GOP, the Dems are terrible at PR.
| 31 |
garhighway Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:30:24am |
re: #26 Obdicut
I don’t see anyone making that assumption. I think the assumption, which is a correct one, is that some of the responders are having difficulty getting health care otherwise.
If we are talking about “some of the responders” and we are just talking about them getting health care, how is this a $7 billion dollar deal?
If this is about the volunteers, and they have no access to the worker comp system, then sure: they need health care. But this price tag implies something way more massive than that, doesn’t it?
| 32 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:31:38am |
re: #31 garhighway
So are you conceding that your original contention, that the assumption was being made that this bill was the only way people ‘on the pile’ will receive health care, was incorrect?
| 33 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:32:08am |
re: #31 garhighway
If we are talking about “some of the responders” and we are just talking about them getting health care, how is this a $7 billion dollar deal?
If this is about the volunteers, and they have no access to the worker comp system, then sure: they need health care. But this price tag implies something way more massive than that, doesn’t it?
I’m more familiar with the Federal Comp system, but “official” volunteers there do come under the Federal Employees’ Compensation Act.
| 34 |
garhighway Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:32:33am |
re: #24 Decatur Deb
Different rules for different states, but Workers’ Comp is intended to be the sole remedy for on-the job injury care. It was designed to protect employers from liability, not to protect workers.
Actually, it is designed to both protect employers from tort suits and to protect workers from having their own negligence (which is the cause of a lot of workplace injuries) used as a defense, as it would be in a tort action. So it’s a trade: if you get injured at work, you get some money and your medical paid, and you don’t have to worry about having to prove that the injury was someone else’s fault.
| 35 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:33:09am |
re: #34 garhighway
Actually, it is designed to both protect employers from tort suits and to protect workers from having their own negligence (which is the cause of a lot of workplace injuries) used as a defense, as it would be in a tort action. So it’s a trade: if you get injured at work, you get some money and your medical paid, and you don’t have to worry about having to prove that the injury was someone else’s fault.
But does it cover what happens if you get injured when not on the job?
| 36 |
What, me worry? Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:33:11am |
re: #25 Stanley Sea
Breaking:
NBC: The stand alone bill to repeal DADT has been introduced in the House of Representatives.
Interesting. I don’t have a lot of hope.
The Republicans are holding everything hostage because of the tax bill or so they say, but even that’s all BS. They simply are politicizing every agenda put before them. If it’s anything the Democrats want, they automatically vote against it. They got their lousy tax bill, they got their compromise so what will they give? Not a damn thing, not repealing DADT, not paying 9/11 responders and they have no ideas how to fix social security, Medicare or healthcare other than privatizing them.
| 37 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:34:22am |
It’s not about taxes.
It’s about a black man in the White House.
| 38 |
What, me worry? Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:34:54am |
| 39 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:35:11am |
re: #35 jamesfirecat
But does it cover what happens if you get injured when not on the job?
Once again speaking Fed (which is mainstream to the states) it’s on-the-job, with some few court-decided exceptions like driving to work under orders.
| 40 |
Four More Tears Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:35:43am |
| 41 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:35:50am |
re: #37 Charles
It’s not about taxes.
It’s about a
black manDemocrat in the White House.
I always like to give people the benefit of the doubt….
(Besides do you think they wouldn’t be doing this to Hillary?)
| 42 |
celticdragon Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:36:24am |
re: #21 NJDhockeyfan
Both sides are guilty of doing that. It’s the Washington DC way.
Magical balance fairy getting a good rodgering from behind again…
| 43 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:37:21am |
re: #37 Charles
And about a socialist Muslim in the White House who’s the most liberal person of all time.
| 44 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:37:39am |
re: #42 celticdragon
Magical balance fairy getting a good rodgering from behind again…
This looks like a job for a LOL-Troll cat!
| 45 |
celticdragon Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:38:01am |
re: #36 marjoriemoon
Interesting. I don’t have a lot of hope.
The Republicans are holding everything hostage because of the tax bill or so they say, but even that’s all BS. They simply are politicizing every agenda put before them. If it’s anything the Democrats want, they automatically vote against it. They got their lousy tax bill, they got their compromise so what will they give? Not a damn thing, not repealing DADT, not paying 9/11 responders and they have no ideas how to fix social security, Medicare or healthcare other than privatizing them.
Every Goddess-damned issue is now bing shoved into the culture war/grievance paradigm…no matter how poor the fit.
| 46 |
lawhawk Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:38:20am |
re: #15 garhighway
The causation issue is the biggest hurdle, even if the bill gets passed. The bill includes monitoring, and considering that workers came from all over the country to help recover remains of those murdered on 9/11, a national registry is necessary.
The text of the bill includes screening-eligible criteria, including those who were WTC responders and WTC survivors, and has a WTC registry along with an application process.
As for the number who have reportedly died as a result from exposures, the article I referenced above:
According to advocates for the responders and their families, approximately 900 people have so far died from ailments contracted while working on the pile, and that first responders are currently dying at a rate of three a month. James Zadroga, a New York City police detective, is the first known Ground Zero responder to die, in 2006, from illness contracted there.
The number who have claimed 9/11 related illnesses is much greater, and among that number, there may be cases that are unrelated to service at Ground Zero - firefighting results in exposure to chemicals and materials that could lead to respiratory ailments or other diseases being seen among those claiming 9/11 related ailments. It’s up to the epidemiologists to discern whether the ailments are resulting from exposures at Ground Zero and time exposed at Ground Zero.
| 47 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:38:39am |
re: #44 jamesfirecat
You should start linking directly to the JPG.
| 48 |
goddamnedfrank Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:38:47am |
re: #1 garhighway
Assuming the workers were on the job when they were exposed to the fumes from the pile, wouldn’t they get their health care through worker’s comp? Why would they need a special bill?
I’m just guessing here, but maybe it’s because workers comp claims typically have a statute of limitations that requires the filing to made within one year of the injurious event. Many of these exposure injuries, cancers and suchlike took longer than that to be diagnosed.
| 49 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:39:26am |
re: #41 jamesfirecat
I always like to give people the benefit of the doubt…
(Besides do you think they wouldn’t be doing this to Hillary?)
Oh, they’d be doing this to Hillary.
| 50 |
122 Year Old Obama Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:39:30am |
re: #47 Obdicut
Deviant art doesn’t allow that.
| 51 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:39:37am |
re: #34 garhighway
Actually, it is designed to both protect employers from tort suits and to protect workers from having their own negligence (which is the cause of a lot of workplace injuries) used as a defense, as it would be in a tort action. So it’s a trade: if you get injured at work, you get some money and your medical paid, and you don’t have to worry about having to prove that the injury was someone else’s fault.
Compensation limits are set. In the Fed system, losing your wang on the job was worth 27 months pay per the “scheduled awards”, IIRC.
| 52 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:40:37am |
| 54 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:41:16am |
re: #51 Decatur Deb
I wouldn’t really be over losing my wang after 27 months.
| 55 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:41:36am |
re: #51 Decatur Deb
Compensation limits are set. In the Fed system, losing your wang on the job was worth 27 months pay per the “scheduled awards”, IIRC.
///You realize that system is just going to encourage trannies who can’t afford the operation to get jobs where they can have work related accidents don’t you? (So so very sarcastic)
| 56 |
Four More Tears Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:43:55am |
re: #49 SanFranciscoZionist
Oh, they’d be doing this to Hillary.
We’d be trading blatant racism for over-the-top sexism.
| 57 |
What, me worry? Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:44:12am |
re: #41 jamesfirecat
I always like to give people the benefit of the doubt…
(Besides do you think they wouldn’t be doing this to Hillary?)
Probably not.
They got their tax bill, so why are they acting like this? Oh, yes, because we didn’t make it permanent? It’s far more important to them to see Obama fail than support the citizens of this country. What glorious patriots they are.
I’m very angry at Obama, but I don’t know that another Dem could do better, including Hillary. However, I’d die before ever voting Republican.
| 58 |
NJDhockeyfan Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:44:27am |
re: #37 Charles
It’s not about taxes.
It’s about a black man in the White House.
I don’t believe that. Why is the racist Tea Party supporting the bill then?
| 59 |
Stanley Sea Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:44:59am |
re: #56 JasonA
We’d be trading blatant racism for over-the-top sexism.
I’ll never forget the Hillary nut crackers.
| 60 |
lawhawk Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:45:42am |
re: #27 Sionainn
Some of the exposure issues were resulting from firefighters and other rescue personnel opting not to use rebreathers/masks, others were using masks inadequate masks.
Using the full oxygen masks (carrying the tanks on their backs) greatly reduced time on the pile and some personnel made the decision to forgo the masks perhaps on the basis of claims that the air was clean 4 days after the attacks. You can see from photos later on 9/11 after the collapse that firefighters were already on the pile and in the vicinity of the collapse without masks. Heck, I was walking past the site a few weeks later (while the fires were still burning) without a mask and probably was exposed to some level of contaminants - as was pretty much everyone else who lived downwind of Ground Zero while the recovery efforts were ongoing (and that includes Lower Manhattan, parts of New Jersey and Brooklyn and Staten Island.
The issue is a whole lot more complicated and I just want to see that these workers’ health issues are properly addressed.
The politics that have held up a compensation package has been asinine because as Stewart has said - the politicians will say that these workers were heroes, but now that they need the government’s backing to provide assistance in their time of need, the politicians are no where to be found to vote on legislation that would provide a measure of compensation for their service.
| 61 |
Four More Tears Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:46:04am |
re: #59 Stanley Sea
I’ll never forget the Hillary nut crackers.
Imagine Rush Limbaugh if Hillary were in the White House. Let that thought sink in for a minute.
| 62 |
celticdragon Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:46:59am |
re: #55 jamesfirecat
///You realize that system is just going to encourage trannies who can’t afford the operation to get jobs where they can have work related accidents don’t you? (So so very sarcastic)
The word “Tranny” is roughly equivalent to calling a black man “boy”.
“Tranny” is associated with pornography and the exploitation of impovershed sex workers. It is demeaning and insulting.
I understand that you were joking, but I would sincerely appreciate it if you not use the term.
Thanks.
| 63 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:47:06am |
re: #61 JasonA
Imagine Rush Limbaugh if Hillary were in the White House. Let that thought sink in for a minute.
He’d probably claim that Kagan was really Chelsey’s father….
| 64 |
garhighway Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:47:30am |
I see lots of interesting reading here: more than I have time to fully digest now.
But from what I am reading, this is about more than the first responders, it is about a much broader class of people (one that I am in, I suspect: I breathed those fumes for a while, too). I also see numbers being cited that I suspect come from the plaintiff’s class action lawyers, who I suspect of being less than perfectly truthful. I also am seeing that this isn’t just about health care, it’s about “compensation”, which makes me wonder how much and for what.
I will try to learn more.
| 65 |
What, me worry? Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:47:39am |
re: #49 SanFranciscoZionist
Oh, they’d be doing this to Hillary.
I don’t agree. Not to this level. They really don’t give a crap about the American people, the ones who put their sorry asses on the Hill. They have one agenda only. Obama shouldn’t win in 2012. Sabotage everything he does. They have more respect for Hillary.
| 66 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:47:50am |
Note that normally, if you have ordinary health insurance, the carrier (BC/BS etc.) refuse your health care claim if the injury is On-the-Job.
| 67 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:48:36am |
re: #62 celticdragon
The word “Tranny” is roughly equivalent to calling a black man “boy”.
“Tranny” is associated with pornography and the exploitation of impovershed sex workers. It is demeaning and insulting.
I understand that you were joking, but I would sincerely appreciate it if you not use the term.
Thanks.
Sorry, I’m aware that some statements even when uttered sarcastically can still cause pain for the same reason as if the statement was said in earnest…
I think at one point I heard someone use the phrase “Intra-sex” is that less offensive?
| 68 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:51:55am |
re: #66 Decatur Deb
Note that normally, if you have ordinary health insurance, the carrier (BC/BS etc.) refuse your health care claim if the injury is On-the-Job.
That’s a good point. This cuts through the red tape and takes the burden off the individuals in a large way.
| 69 |
What, me worry? Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:54:18am |
re: #67 jamesfirecat
Sorry, I’m aware that some statements even when uttered sarcastically can still cause pain for the same reason as if the statement was said in earnest…
I think at one point I heard someone use the phrase “Intra-sex” is that less offensive?
I think it’s transgender. It’s the “T” in LGBT.
| 70 |
lawhawk Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:54:31am |
re: #66 Decatur Deb
You have some firefighters and police who were on duty for part of the time while working on the Pile and then volunteered in their off-duty time to work on recovery efforts. Same goes with other people who ended up working in the vicinity to assist in the relief and recovery efforts. That complicates matters even further.
What could have stemmed this situation from devolving into a mess would have been to set aside a VCF-style fund for relief/rescue personnel alongside the general Sept 11 VCF. That didn’t happen, and creating a new fund in this current political atmosphere is toxic.
It’s also a sad day because we’ve gone from a situation where President Bush was willing to give the city/state whatever resources were needed - and directed those comments to Sen. Schumer, to a situation where the GOP is pretty much telling the 9/11 responders to drop dead.
It’s pathetic.
| 71 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:55:38am |
re: #41 jamesfirecat
I always like to give people the benefit of the doubt…
(Besides do you think they wouldn’t be doing this to Hillary?)
I’m finished giving the right wing the benefit of the doubt. I haven’t seen such an eruption of bigotry and racism in my whole life — all following the election of a black President. It’s not a coincidence, and the craziness goes WAY beyond the usual GOP reaction to a Democratic President.
| 72 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:56:45am |
re: #71 Charles
To me, it’s that so few people in the GOP have called anyone on the racism or spoken up against it. The incidences of blatant racism by top GOP figures (not including Limbaugh) is low, but the repudiation of racism by those figures is basically non-existent.
| 73 |
celticdragon Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:56:54am |
re: #67 jamesfirecat
Sorry, I’m aware that some statements even when uttered sarcastically can still cause pain for the same reason as if the statement was said in earnest…
I think at one point I heard someone use the phrase “Intra-sex” is that less offensive?
Inter-sexed people either have ambiguous genitals or a related condition that makes determing their gender difficult. Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS) is an example where a person is genetically male, but male genitals never form while the child is in utero…which results in a baby that looks quite convincingly female. This is often not discovered until concerned parents go to a gynecologist to find why their daughter is so late in starting her period. (IE, she doesn’t have a uterus or ovaries, for starters.). Sometimes, it isn’t found until the girl gets married and is wondering why she can’t get pregnant. Some of the taller beauty/fashion models are AIS women.
For the rest of us who don’t have issues that are quite that extreme, we just pretty much settle on “transgendered”, which usually takes in inter-sexed people as well.
Again, I know you were kidding around and meant nothing by it. I just wanted to let you know about the seriously negative connotations that surround the word.
| 74 |
What, me worry? Tue, Dec 14, 2010 10:58:28am |
re: #71 Charles
I’m finished giving the right wing the benefit of the doubt. I haven’t seen such an eruption of bigotry and racism in my whole life — all following the election of a black President. It’s not a coincidence, and the craziness goes WAY beyond the usual GOP reaction to a Democratic President.
Rise in hate groups since 2008, up by 4%.
The SPLC identified 926 hate groups active in 2008, up more than 4 percent from the 888 groups in 2007 and far above the 602 groups documented in 2000. A list and interactive, state-by-state map of these groups can be viewed here.
| 75 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:00:17am |
re: #70 lawhawk
You have some firefighters and police who were on duty for part of the time while working on the Pile and then volunteered in their off-duty time to work on recovery efforts. Same goes with other people who ended up working in the vicinity to assist in the relief and recovery efforts. That complicates matters even further.
What could have stemmed this situation from devolving into a mess would have been to set aside a VCF-style fund for relief/rescue personnel alongside the general Sept 11 VCF. That didn’t happen, and creating a new fund in this current political atmosphere is toxic.
It’s also a sad day because we’ve gone from a situation where President Bush was willing to give the city/state whatever resources were needed - and directed those comments to Sen. Schumer, to a situation where the GOP is pretty much telling the 9/11 responders to drop dead.
It’s pathetic.
My memory is vague on this, but I think officials (C. Whitman??) at one point downplayed the hazards associated with the airborne exposures. The whole thing stinks, and lends credence to any paranoid nonsense that’s out there.
| 76 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:02:30am |
re: #75 Decatur Deb
My memory is vague on this, but I think officials (C. Whitman??) at one point downplayed the hazards associated with the airborne exposures. The whole thing stinks, and lends credence to any paranoid nonsense that’s out there.
Yep, she did. She claimed the air in and around Ground Zero was safe and everyone should be fine.
| 78 |
celticdragon Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:03:16am |
Gotta run for now. I finished my practical lab final for optical mineralogy last week, and my written final is in about an hour. see you lizards later. :)
| 79 |
Talking Point Detective Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:03:57am |
re: #58 NJDhockeyfan
I don’t believe that. Why is the racist Tea Party supporting the bill then?
We can’t know for sure if it’s about race, but we do know it is about the Muslim/Kenyan/Lyin’ African/socialist/Communist/terrorist palin’/racist/empty suit/Nazi-like/tyrannical/teleprompter reliant/self-obsessed/jihadist-appeasing/jew-hating/smoker in the white house.
| 81 |
What, me worry? Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:07:58am |
re: #73 celticdragon
Inter-sexed people either have ambiguous genitals or a related condition that makes determing their gender difficult. Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS) is an example where a person is genetically male, but male genitals never form while the child is in utero…which results in a baby that looks quite convincingly female. This is often not discovered until concerned parents go to a gynecologist to find why their daughter is so late in starting her period. (IE, she doesn’t have a uterus or ovaries, for starters.). Sometimes, it isn’t found until the girl gets married and is wondering why she can’t get pregnant. Some of the taller beauty/fashion models are AIS women.
For the rest of us who don’t have issues that are quite that extreme, we just pretty much settle on “transgendered”, which usually takes in inter-sexed people as well.
Again, I know you were kidding around and meant nothing by it. I just wanted to let you know about the seriously negative connotations that surround the word.
My friend adopted from China and when she was looking through the lists of children, there were an inordinate amount of kids born with these issues. I mean, maybe a dozen kids throughout a number of agencies, which I thought was a lot.
These were part of the unwanted children, along with children with harelips, short arms or legs, clubbed feet, etc. For the hermaphrodite (how they referred to them - I don’t know if that’s offensive!) the Chinese automatically make them into girls. If they have both male and female genitals, they just remove the penis. It’s really awful because until puberty hits, you really can’t tell what the child is. From what I understand here in the states, they wait until the parents see if the child acts more female or more male and then apply surgery accordingly. The Chinese don’t want to mess with all that.
Anyway, it’s really awful. They don’t get adopted and basically live out their lives in these adoption agencies with pretty severe mental problems.
| 82 |
Talking Point Detective Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:08:44am |
re: #80 jaunte
He smokes?!?
Disgusting, I know. *
* (Of course, according to the right wing, all that anti-smoking propaganda is just part of the left-wing conspiracy to bring down capitalism - seriously, I’ve come across many who believe that, Limbaugh has promoted that joke of a theory on his show).
| 83 |
Stanley Sea Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:09:27am |
re: #79 Talking Point Detective
We can’t know for sure if it’s about race, but we do know it is about the Muslim/Kenyan/Lyin’ African/socialist/Communist/terrorist palin’/racist/empty suit/Nazi-like/tyrannical/teleprompter reliant/self-obsessed/jihadist-appeasing/jew-hatin g/smoker in the white house.
Fuck, I forgot all about “empty suit”
Dang that one was rampant for awhile.
| 84 |
Four More Tears Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:10:05am |
re: #83 Stanley Sea
Fuck, I forgot all about “empty suit”
Dang that one was rampant for awhile.
Celebrity!
| 85 |
Bob Dillon Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:11:49am |
re: #66 Decatur Deb
Note that normally, if you have ordinary health insurance, the carrier (BC/BS etc.) refuse your health care claim if the injury is On-the-Job.
Right - It can be a rude awakening to realize the premiums you have been paying only cover you off the job (lowest risk) and now you need an attorney to navigate Workers Comp and try to get you the medical attention you need. And there are those who milk the system.
| 86 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:12:11am |
re: #82 Talking Point Detective
… while simultaneously asserting that Native Americans perpetrated a greater genocide against whites than any other group by introducing us to tobacco. See, smoking is fine, and a truly American thing to do, and harmless, and it also kills millions of people.
Rush Limbaugh is such a hateful piece of shit. I wouldn’t piss on him if he were on fire.
| 87 |
Talking Point Detective Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:12:53am |
re: #83 Stanley Sea
Fuck, I forgot all about “empty suit”
Dang that one was rampant for awhile.
What’s funny is how insult of choice is near-uniform for a couple of weeks until it is replaced by the next insult.
| 88 |
imherefromtheinternet Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:13:25am |
All the cool presidents smoke(d).
| 89 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:14:53am |
re: #87 Talking Point Detective
That’s how the echo chamber works. Memes substitute for ideas, like the whole IRS/USPS/Healthcare juxtaposition, little morsels of half-truth and innuendo travel together until the next one hits the airwaves to replace it. They are never around long enough for the disproof to fully propagate to the base, so they do their work without ever backfiring.
| 90 |
imherefromtheinternet Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:15:38am |
re: #87 Talking Point Detective
They are called “talking points.” Republicans have them, and Democrats have John Kerry.
| 91 |
Stanley Sea Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:16:27am |
Mark Prior, an Abbortsford, WI businessman who says he’s had problems with black people in the past, has posted a sign on his yet-to-open gentleman’s club saying “No Negros Allowed”.
| 92 |
Four More Tears Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:17:37am |
| 94 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:18:24am |
re: #91 Stanley Sea
“I’m going to stick to my guns because I think I have the right as a business owner to reject service to anyone. It’s not all the black people there are just a few bad ones,” Prior says of his problems in the past.
No, asshole, you don’t. There was a piece of legislation addressing that tactic in the 60’s.
| 95 |
Four More Tears Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:18:33am |
Oops.
That should have read : I love the misplaced apostrophe. Let’s me know we’re dealing with a class-A mouthbreather.
| 96 |
JeffFX Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:18:34am |
| 97 |
jaunte Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:18:41am |
re: #91 Stanley Sea
Prior previously failed at attempts to open a grocery store and his own sheriff’s department.
Obviously a master of DIY.
| 98 |
Talking Point Detective Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:19:38am |
re: #86 Fozzie Bear
Don’t ever misunderestimate a rightwinger:
Look At It This Way
Perhaps a case can be made for the emotional response to smokers being just another example of Political Correctness. I don’t smoke, I never smoked and, with the current price of cigarettes, I don’t plan to start. Furthermore, I’d prefer that people around me didn’t smoke. However, I’d be less than honest if I said that I was sure my aversion to second-hand smoke was based on anything more than a personal bias. And if tomorrow they come for smokers, why should I care? I’m not a smoker.
America was built on a live and let live attitude. Before the current crop of busybodies, do-gooders and nannies gained political power, we let people do what they like - even if they were hurting themselves - as long as didn’t hurt anyone else. We’d only step in if an unwilling bystander was being harmed. That left the door open for the Second Hand Smoke (SHS) attack on smokers.
If SHS really is as dangerous as the government, political organizations and charities claim, efforts to prevent it and contain it might be justified. But is it dangerous? We’re bombarded by endless proclamations of its horrors, claims that get more fantastic with each passing year. These claims are usually accompanied by impressive sounding numbers. Are smokers really hurting every stranger in the vicinity? The answer to that question is obvious once you know the facts.
| 99 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:20:19am |
| 100 |
Four More Tears Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:20:59am |
re: #99 Decatur Deb
All the best gentlemen’s clubs have hand-lettered, misspelled signs.
No Homer’s Allowed
| 101 |
What, me worry? Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:21:11am |
re: #90 imherefromtheinternet
They are called “talking points.” Republicans have them, and Democrats have John Kerry.
TFK?? That you?
| 102 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:22:05am |
OK, I’ve reached saturation for the morning—BBL.
| 103 |
Four More Tears Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:22:45am |
re: #102 Decatur Deb
OK, I’ve reached saturation for the morning—BBL.
I don’t need to know what that means.
| 104 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:22:59am |
| 105 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:22:59am |
| 106 |
What, me worry? Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:24:02am |
| 107 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:24:13am |
re: #98 Talking Point Detective
There’s so much rampant hyberbole on all sides regarding smoking. No, someone smoking a cigarette outdoors near you isn’t going to increase your cancer risk substantially, and at the same time, it isn’t totally harmless either. It’s an irritant, and some people are more sensitive than others.
People need to be more considerate about it, but they also need to stop whining. I really think sometimes we are a nation of whiners.
| 108 |
Stanley Sea Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:24:56am |
re: #106 marjoriemoon
re: #93 Stanley Sea
re: #94 Fozzie Bear
What the hell is going on in Wisconsin? Midwesterners are supposed to be the friendliest people in the world! Stanley, didn’t you post something on the pages about some guy wanting to start a business with the same sign or is this the same guy.
Not my page. Maybe someone caught this before Colmes.
Racist dimwits touting the Rand Paul theory.
| 109 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:25:08am |
re: #103 JasonA
I don’t need to know what that means.
If I were at work, OSHA would be after me for exceeding the Threshold Limit Value for Stoopid Political Crap.
| 110 |
dmon Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:25:35am |
To have workers comp pay benefits you first have to prove your illness was caused by the exposure which can be hard to do. I’m a full time firefighter in Ohio. Workman’s comp and the pension in Ohio automatically assumes (for firefighters only) that my work is the cause of heart attacks and cancer.
If i was exposed to the same conditions here as these first responders were, there is no guarantee that I would be covered. I would imagine this bill would automatically cover anyone with certain symptoms.
In my opinion these folks were working in a war zone and the federal government should treat them as such.
It absolutely pisses me off that the people who claim to “support our troops” quickly change their tune if it is going to cost anything.
| 111 |
What, me worry? Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:27:14am |
re: #108 Stanley Sea
Not my page. Maybe someone caught this before Colmes.
Racist dimwits touting the Rand Paul theory.
Naw, it’s the same guy. I just reread the article.
| 112 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:27:49am |
re: #111 marjoriemoon
Naw, it’s the same guy. I just reread the article.
Well at least that means there aren’t two of them…
| 113 |
Talking Point Detective Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:27:51am |
re: #90 imherefromtheinternet
They are called “talking points.”
Indeed, and the discipline of the Republicans in uniformly accepting and repeating the same talking points, and of Fox News in amplifying the decibel level, has been taken to a fine art.
Especially considering that most Republican talking points are based on piss-poor logic, outright lies, or both. Such disregard for legitimate debate is truly impressive.
| 115 |
Stanley Sea Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:28:31am |
re: #111 marjoriemoon
Well thanks for sending me to the pages, I’m reading Curious Lurker’s one on Cleopatra. Amazing page.
| 116 |
lawhawk Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:30:28am |
re: #70 lawhawk
With news that the Ukraine is considering opening up the area around Chernobyl to tourism, it’s a good time to revisit something I wrote a couple of years back when the issue of Ground Zero workers was becoming a major concern as the health effects of 9/11 exposures became more known.
We owe it to these workers to not let them be turned into the US version of the Chernobyl liquidators who were left in the dark about what dangers they were exposed to and the ailments they and their families had to live with and die from.
| 117 |
What, me worry? Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:31:01am |
re: #112 jamesfirecat
Well at least that means there aren’t two of them…
yea lol
A little more detail. The town is mortified about this. It’s been plastered all over the news.
I don’t think that article says it, but the city hasn’t granted him any permits to open a business. From what I recall, he tried opening a grocery store with a “gentleman’s club” behind it. What is that, a strip club?
Naked ladies = ok
Black people = not ok
Wonder if naked black ladies are ok?
| 118 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:31:08am |
re: #113 Talking Point Detective
I don’t think it is disregard for legitimate debate in most cases, per se, I think it’s just a feeling that when your opponent is truly evil, anything goes.
I think many republicans have been convinced their political opponents are just pure concentrated evil, and thus, deserve no reasoned debate. Would you agree to debate with Nazis?
| 119 |
Opal Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:31:09am |
re: #27 Sionainn
It bears repeating, and it is a shame that so many workers don’t have health insurance.
| 120 |
zora Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:33:22am |
re: #99 Decatur Deb
All the best gentlemen’s clubs have hand-lettered, misspelled signs.
and what looks to be a toilet outside.
| 121 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:33:29am |
re: #119 Opal
It bears repeating, and it is a shame that so many workers don’t have health insurance.
///I blame Obamacare, clearly it’s a failure as a system and needs to be replaced with more market driven Initiatives!
| 122 |
Talking Point Detective Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:34:44am |
re: #107 Fozzie Bear
There’s so much rampant hyberbole on all sides regarding smoking. No, someone smoking a cigarette outdoors near you isn’t going to increase your cancer risk substantially, and at the same time, it isn’t totally harmless either. It’s an irritant, and some people are more sensitive than others.
People need to be more considerate about it, but they also need to stop whining. I really think sometimes we are a nation of whiners.
The only problem is that the “hyperbole” on one side is backed by extensive epidemiological studies, and the hyperbole on the other side is backed by tobacco companies.
Second-hand smoke globally kills more than 600,000 people each year, accounting for 1% of all deaths worldwide, according to a new study.
The alarming findings - published on Thursday in the British medical journal Lancet - are based on a survey of 192 countries in 2004.
Researchers estimated that annually second-hand smoke causes about 379,000 deaths from heart disease, 165,000 deaths from lower respiratory disease, 36,900 deaths from asthma and 21,400 deaths from lung cancer.
Children account for about 165,000 of the deaths, according to the researchers.
Read more: nydailynews.com
| 123 |
What, me worry? Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:36:42am |
re: #105 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Not enough cursing or misspellings.
Go out back front potato.
Table stick under pencil.
You will know. Time stuck car.
John Kerry!!
| 124 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:37:50am |
re: #122 Talking Point Detective
I agree, if you work in a bar or a casino where people are chain smoking around you all day long every day, there is a substantial risk there.
However, if you are standing outside, and somebody lights up near you, you have the option to walk away, or suck it up. Everybody has to die from something. I was a smoker for a long time, and some people take the whole “oh god the secondhand smoke is killing me” thing waaaay too far.
| 125 |
What, me worry? Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:39:46am |
re: #124 Fozzie Bear
I agree, if you work in a bar or a casino where people are chain smoking around you all day long every day, there is a substantial risk there.
However, if you are standing outside, and somebody lights up near you, you have the option to walk away, or suck it up. Everybody has to die from something. I was a smoker for a long time, and some people take the whole “oh god the secondhand smoke is killing me” thing waaay too far.
I’m a smoker and I don’t agree.
You ever see someone die of lung cancer? That’s not dying of “something”. That’s one gruesome awful death. It’s not like you just don’t wake up one day.
We’ve tried to quit a number of times this year. I put about 3 months together. We’re going again on the 1st.
Honestly, secondhand smoke grosses me out.
| 126 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:40:13am |
re: #122 Talking Point Detective
(Disclaimer: I smoke and plan to quit)
Secondhand smoke is bad, I have little doubt of that, I just find it hard to believe that there are that many people dying as a result of exposure to second hand smoke unless they are non-smokers exposed to it constantly. If that’s the case then I could believe it, however they have hyped it to the point where you smoking one cig around a non-smoker will kill the non-smoker. Some of the anti-tobacco ads have gone over the top.
For example, here in CA they run one of someone smoking a cig then cut to a kid with asthma taking a hit off an inhaler. If the kid is exposed to second hand smoke all the time I could see it but asthma is caused by many other factors such as being in an area with lots of air pollution, such as a city.
I don’t deny that smoking is bad and second hand smoke poses risks I just don’t believe that SHS is the root cause of all of these deaths. They are using estimates as it is, not even real data.
| 127 |
Talking Point Detective Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:42:14am |
re: #118 Fozzie Bear
I don’t think it is disregard for legitimate debate in most cases, per se, I think it’s just a feeling that when your opponent is truly evil, anything goes.
I think many republicans have been convinced their political opponents are just pure concentrated evil, and thus, deserve no reasoned debate. Would you agree to debate with Nazis?
I don’t think I agree. I think that often it is simply a disregard for legitimate debate.
Of course, some “combatants” on both sides think the other side are Nazis, and some on both sides have no interest in real debate, and I realize that my viewpoint isn’t exactly objective - but part of the Republican Party’s fundamental plank is that “nuanced” analysis is inherently limp-wristed, un-American, and anti-Christian.
| 128 |
What, me worry? Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:43:16am |
re: #126 Dreggas
(Disclaimer: I smoke and plan to quit)
Secondhand smoke is bad, I have little doubt of that, I just find it hard to believe that there are that many people dying as a result of exposure to second hand smoke unless they are non-smokers exposed to it constantly. If that’s the case then I could believe it, however they have hyped it to the point where you smoking one cig around a non-smoker will kill the non-smoker. Some of the anti-tobacco ads have gone over the top.
For example, here in CA they run one of someone smoking a cig then cut to a kid with asthma taking a hit off an inhaler. If the kid is exposed to second hand smoke all the time I could see it but asthma is caused by many other factors such as being in an area with lots of air pollution, such as a city.
I don’t deny that smoking is bad and second hand smoke poses risks I just don’t believe that SHS is the root cause of all of these deaths. They are using estimates as it is, not even real data.
I know 2 people who died of lung cancer who didn’t smoke. Parents of my friends. One, at least, had a spouse that smoked so my friend assumed it was secondhand smoke, but not sure.
It’s possible to die of lung cancer if you don’t smoke, but if you do, the risk goes up like 85%. And then there’s heart disease, blood disease, all kinds of nasty stuff.
Don’t make excuses smokers. Really.
| 129 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:43:34am |
re: #125 marjoriemoon
the wife and I are planning to quit the beginning of the year too. I do agree SHS is nasty smelling, quit for 3 months once and when I got my sense of smell back the first thing I noticed is just how bad SHS smells and how bad smokers (and I) smelled.
| 130 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:44:17am |
You learn something new everyday.
In 1939, he became a vice-consul of the Japanese Consulate in Kaunas, Lithuania. His other duty was to report on Soviet and German troop movements.
Sugihara is said to have cooperated with Polish intelligence, as a part of bigger Japanese-Polish cooperative plan.[3] After the Soviet takeover of Lithuania in 1940, many Jewish refugees from Poland (Polish Jews) as well as Lithuanian Jews tried to acquire exit visas. Without the visas, it was dangerous to travel and impossible to find countries willing to issue them. Hundreds of refugees came to the Japanese consulate in Kaunas, trying to get a visa to Japan. The Dutch consul Jan Zwartendijk had provided some of them with an official third destination to Curaçao, a Caribbean island and Dutch colony that required no entry visa, or Dutch Guiana (which, upon independence, became Suriname). At the time, the Japanese government required that visas be issued only to those who had gone through appropriate immigration procedures and had enough funds. Most of the refugees did not fulfill these criteria. Sugihara dutifully contacted the Japanese Foreign Ministry three times for instructions. Each time, the Ministry responded that anybody granted a visa should have a visa to a third destination to exit Japan, with no exceptions.[4]
From July 31 to August 28, 1940, aware that applicants were in danger if they stayed behind, Sugihara began to grant visas on his own initiative, after consulting with his family. He ignored the requirements and arranged the Jews with a ten-day visa to transit through Japan, in direct violation of his orders. Given his inferior post and the culture of the Japanese Foreign Service bureaucracy, this was an extraordinary act of disobedience. He spoke to Soviet officials who agreed to let the Jews travel through the country via the Trans-Siberian railway at five times the standard ticket price.
Sugihara continued to hand-write visas, reportedly spending 18–20 hours a day on them, producing a normal month’s worth of visas each day, until September 4, when he had to leave his post before the consulate was closed. By that time he had granted thousands of visas to Jews, many whom were heads of household and thus permitted to take their families with them. On the night before their scheduled departure, Sugihara and his wife stayed awake writing out visa approvals. According to witnesses, he was still writing visas while in transit from his hotel and after boarding the train, throwing visas into the crowd of desperate refugees out the train’s window even as the train pulled out. In final desperation, blank sheets of paper with only the consulate seal and his signature (that could be later written over into a visa) were hurriedly prepared and flung out from the train. Sugihara himself wondered about official reaction to the thousands of visas he issued. Many years later, he recalled, “No one ever said anything about it. I remember thinking that they probably didn’t realize how many I actually issued.”[5]
The total number of Jews saved by Sugihara is in dispute, ranging from 6,000 to 10,000; most likely, it was somewhere in the middle; family visas—which allowed several people to travel on one visa—were also issued, which would account for the much higher figure. The Simon Wiesenthal Center has estimated that Chiune Sugihara issued transit visas for about 6,000 Jews and that around 40,000 descendants of the Jewish refugees are alive today because of his actions.[6]
| 131 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:45:07am |
re: #125 marjoriemoon
I’m a smoker and I don’t agree.
You ever see someone die of lung cancer? That’s not dying of “something”. That’s one gruesome awful death. It’s not like you just don’t wake up one day.
We’ve tried to quit a number of times this year. I put about 3 months together. We’re going again on the 1st.
Honestly, secondhand smoke grosses me out.
Yeah, I get that cancer is horrible. However, if i’m smoking outdoors, i’m not giving anyone cancer. If i’m smoking in my own home, alone, i’m not giving anyone else cancer. And if i’m in a bar that allows smoking, i’m not giving anyone cancer who didn’t choose to expose themselves to that risk.
People aren’t helpless pinatas. They choose their risks to a large extent.
| 132 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:45:58am |
re: #128 marjoriemoon
I’m not making any excuses, I just find the hype hard to believe, same for the hype that pot is a gateway drug etc. I know smoking is bad, I know it could kill me which is why I want to quit and be quit when I have kids.
In the case of your friends parents I can see the link between SHS and the cancer, but again it wasn’t because of some minimal exposure encountered when they were outside around one person lighting up, it was constant exposure.
| 133 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:46:02am |
re: #128 marjoriemoon
Lung cancer has more than one cause.
| 134 |
imherefromtheinternet Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:46:07am |
re: #113 Talking Point Detective
Indeed, and the discipline of the Republicans in uniformly accepting and repeating the same talking points, and of Fox News in amplifying the decibel level, has been taken to a fine art.
Especially considering that most Republican talking points are based on piss-poor logic, outright lies, or both. Such disregard for legitimate debate is truly impressive.
Yeah. I get reminded of how on-message the republicans are 4 days a week while watching the Daily Show. The montages they put together of all the GOPers saying the exact same thing are quite impressive.
And Kerry, well, he has rambling points instead.
| 135 |
Talking Point Detective Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:46:59am |
re: #124 Fozzie Bear
re: #126 Dreggas
The problem is that the data show that even the smallest amount of exposure to SHS can have detrimental effects. Don’t make the mistake of thinking of lung cancer as the only effect.
The Lancet study is based on widely-accepted epidemiological methodologies.
Sure - anyone standing next to a smoker outside can simply walk away, but that doesn’t lessen the responsibility of the smoker for affecting someone else’s health. I’m a (except very occasionally) ex-smoker myself, and as such, I think it is important for smokers to fully acknowledge their responsibility.
| 136 |
What, me worry? Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:47:04am |
re: #129 Dreggas
the wife and I are planning to quit the beginning of the year too. I do agree SHS is nasty smelling, quit for 3 months once and when I got my sense of smell back the first thing I noticed is just how bad SHS smells and how bad smokers (and I) smelled.
It’s awful. You smell bad, your house, your clothes. I’m glad it’s totally uncool among kids.
Smoking causes a host of problems. I’m sorry you don’t believe that! But I’m glad you’re gonna try to quit. Us too. I’m actually down to about 5-10 cigs a day. I don’t smoke at work or in the house. I smoke in the back yard, under a tree, in a ditch, in the dark… :p
| 137 |
Political Atheist Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:48:06am |
Apologies if someone already paged or posted this.
We all know acts of civil disobedience. In the same vein-
I call this Civil Disloyalty.
| 138 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:50:05am |
re: #124 Fozzie Bear
I agree, if you work in a bar or a casino where people are chain smoking around you all day long every day, there is a substantial risk there.
However, if you are standing outside, and somebody lights up near you, you have the option to walk away, or suck it up. Everybody has to die from something. I was a smoker for a long time, and some people take the whole “oh god the secondhand smoke is killing me” thing waaay too far.
Zedushka is a smoker. He has completely taken over the garage for his habit, which means that my car, which is a non-smoking car, has been transformed into a smoker’s car just because it’s parked there. I would like to purchase an new (or newer used) vehicle next year, but I know that once I bring a car into this garage, it’s pickled. Also the mudroom and the utility room, which are off the garage, smell like a smoker’s lair.
I can always tell when he sneaks smokes in the bathroom, because it fucking reeks, even with the window wide open.
And he claims that he can smell a molecule of whole wheat if I try to sneak it into the bread.
| 139 |
What, me worry? Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:51:12am |
re: #132 Dreggas
I’m not making any excuses, I just find the hype hard to believe, same for the hype that pot is a gateway drug etc. I know smoking is bad, I know it could kill me which is why I want to quit and be quit when I have kids.
In the case of your friends parents I can see the link between SHS and the cancer, but again it wasn’t because of some minimal exposure encountered when they were outside around one person lighting up, it was constant exposure.
Pots a different thing. It doesn’t have the chemicals (usually) that cigs do. That’s what kills ya. And if you were to grow your own MJ then you can be sure there’s nothing on it. But I’m a pot advocate.
I think all disease is DNA related. You don’t have the gene, you won’t get it. The problem though is your DNA can be altered by those chemicals.
My friend is 100% convinced that his mother died of his father’s SHS. There is no lung cancer in their family.
| 140 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:51:15am |
re: #136 marjoriemoon
I know smoking causes a lot of problems, I know the risks etc. I just think there are a lot more negative factors in the environment causing illness than me lighting up a cig on a sidewalk somewhere. I know it’s bad for my health, I know it’s bad for those around me if they are constantly exposed to it. I do try and be considerate and blow the smoke away from them or not smoke in certain circumstances.
| 141 |
Talking Point Detective Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:52:00am |
re: #126 Dreggas
They are using estimates as it is, not even real data.
They use real statistical methodologies to make estimates based on “real data.” The confidence intervals are real also.
| 142 |
goddamnedfrank Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:52:14am |
re: #133 Fozzie Bear
Lung cancer has more than one cause.
“I’m sorry I caused all that cancer.”
-Bruce McCullouch
| 143 |
Talking Point Detective Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:54:16am |
re: #140 Dreggas
I know smoking causes a lot of problems, I know the risks etc. I just think there are a lot more negative factors in the environment causing illness than me lighting up a cig on a sidewalk somewhere. I know it’s bad for my health, I know it’s bad for those around me if they are constantly exposed to it. I do try and be considerate and blow the smoke away from them or not smoke in certain circumstances.
As many other risk factors as their might be out there, when you smoke you are potentially increasing the risks for other people.
| 144 |
researchok Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:55:15am |
re: #138 Alouette
Zedushka is a smoker. He has completely taken over the garage for his habit, which means that my car, which is a non-smoking car, has been transformed into a smoker’s car just because it’s parked there. I would like to purchase an new (or newer used) vehicle next year, but I know that once I bring a car into this garage, it’s pickled. Also the mudroom and the utility room, which are off the garage, smell like a smoker’s lair.
I can always tell when he sneaks smokes in the bathroom, because it fucking reeks, even with the window wide open.
And he claims that he can smell a molecule of whole wheat if I try to sneak it into the bread.
Look into an ozone generator.
| 145 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:55:44am |
| 146 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:56:18am |
re: #139 marjoriemoon
Honestly I agree that it’s the chemicals in cigs that are the real culprits behind the cancer and other health issues. There’s also the carbon monoxide which is hard on the arteries.
Don’t get me wrong I think cigarettes suck, they’re bad for me and I know I’m an addict. It’s my addiction to overcome and I know it’s not going to be easy. I just am leery of some of the hype put out there with regard to the idea that me lighting one cigarette is responsible for one kids asthma (which is what the commercials want people to believe).
On the flip side I love how the government wants me to quit smoking but uses the tax money from it to fund health insurance programs (at least here in CA). Of course then when I quit they lose more money. Fortunately the last attempt they made to pass a ballot initiative like that failed.
| 147 |
researchok Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:56:48am |
re: #145 Fozzie Bear
Ironically, ozone is dangerous to lung tissue.
Yes.
But if you aren’t around while the ozonating occurs and wait a bit before entering the area, you’ll suffer no ill effects.
| 148 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:57:25am |
re: #144 researchok
Look into an ozone generator.
Won’t help unless I get the garage fumigated, too.
| 149 |
What, me worry? Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:57:46am |
re: #133 Fozzie Bear
Lung cancer has more than one cause.
Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt.
Yea, lung cancer has more than one cause by 90% of it is from cigs.
Believe or don’t believe at your own peril.
| 150 |
What, me worry? Tue, Dec 14, 2010 12:00:03pm |
Sorry, gotta get. Will be back. Nice talking to ya lizards!
| 151 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Dec 14, 2010 12:00:05pm |
re: #149 marjoriemoon
Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt.
Yea, lung cancer has more than one cause by 90% of it is from cigs.
Believe or don’t believe at your own peril.
[Link: www.cancer.gov…]
Yeah. Ok. I’m not a smoker.
My point is that I am responsible for my own risks. As are you. Cigarette smoke is extremely avoidable in most cases.
| 152 |
angel Graham Tue, Dec 14, 2010 12:03:48pm |
re: #81 marjoriemoon
My friend adopted from China and when she was looking through the lists of children, there were an inordinate amount of kids born with these issues. I mean, maybe a dozen kids throughout a number of agencies, which I thought was a lot.
These were part of the unwanted children, along with children with harelips, short arms or legs, clubbed feet, etc. For the hermaphrodite (how they referred to them - I don’t know if that’s offensive!) the Chinese automatically make them into girls. If they have both male and female genitals, they just remove the penis. It’s really awful because until puberty hits, you really can’t tell what the child is. From what I understand here in the states, they wait until the parents see if the child acts more female or more male and then apply surgery accordingly. The Chinese don’t want to mess with all that.
Anyway, it’s really awful. They don’t get adopted and basically live out their lives in these adoption agencies with pretty severe mental problems.
Just for the record, harelip is not used to describe that particular deformity any longer. The correct term is Cleft Lip. I know this, as I was born with the unilateral Cleftlip/Cleft Palate.
| 153 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 14, 2010 12:25:10pm |
re: #130 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
You learn something new everyday.
He was an utter and complete badass…. there’s nothing more I can say about him….
I love how he manages to more or less get away with everything he did because the Japanese just didn’t expect any of their own burecrats to disobey them as flagrantly as he did.
Then he went onto live a humble life with nobody realizing he saved many times more people than Oscar Schilder till if memory serves one of the people he saved showed up at his house to thank him personally decades later….
Truly a hero in every sense of the word.
| 154 |
allegro Tue, Dec 14, 2010 12:27:55pm |
For the smokers in here who want to quit… I am now 4 months free of the evil weed thanks to LGF and JasonA in specific for turning me on to the e-cig. I haven’t had a cigarette since the day my kit arrived and I am thrilled after about 35 years of smoking and numerous quitting attempts that made me nuts. E-cigs have since been the success factor in two of my friends quitting as well.
I love this thing and I am entirely confident that I will never smoke again… as long as I have my trusty e-cig. :D
| 155 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Tue, Dec 14, 2010 12:31:10pm |
re: #153 jamesfirecat
He was an utter and complete badass… there’s nothing more I can say about him…
I love how he manages to more or less get away with everything he did because the Japanese just didn’t expect any of their own burecrats to disobey them as flagrantly as he did.
Then he went onto live a humble life with nobody realizing he saved many times more people than Oscar Schilder till if memory serves one of the people he saved showed up at his house to thank him personally decades later…
Truly a hero in every sense of the word.
Apparently, none of his neighbors had any clue until an entire Israeli delegation including the Israeli ambassador to Japan showed up at his funeral.
| 156 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 14, 2010 12:35:22pm |
re: #155 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Apparently, none of his neighbors had any clue until an entire Israeli delegation including the Israeli ambassador to Japan showed up at his funeral.
Yeah sorry that’s a little less awesome and a little bit more sad than the movie like version I though I heard somewhere, but still just speaks miles and miles about how much of a humble badass this guy was…
| 157 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Dec 14, 2010 12:39:10pm |
re: #155 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Apparently, none of his neighbors had any clue until an entire Israeli delegation including the Israeli ambassador to Japan showed up at his funeral.
Honestly he’s so awesome you really should make a page about him, because I’m surprised at how little response your post got, this thread must have already been on the way out when you did it….
| 158 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Dec 14, 2010 2:00:11pm |
one of the most disgusting moves yet from the all-new, all-crazy GOP.
I couldn’t agree more.
*SPIT!*
| 159 |
webevintage Tue, Dec 14, 2010 2:07:25pm |
If only the Republicans could be shamed into doing the right thing….
| 160 |
Amory Blaine Tue, Dec 14, 2010 2:20:57pm |
re: #7 Walter L. Newton
Because they are fucking scum of the earth.
| 161 |
Poiks Tue, Dec 14, 2010 4:32:28pm |
re: #65 marjoriemoon
I don’t agree. Not to this level. They really don’t give a crap about the American people, the ones who put their sorry asses on the Hill. They have one agenda only. Obama shouldn’t win in 2012. Sabotage everything he does. They have more respect for Hillary.
Well, they tried to overturn the election of Hillary’s husband. I strongly suspect you’re giving today’s GOP A LOT more credit than it deserves.
| 162 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:30:42pm |
re: #71 Charles
I’m finished giving the right wing the benefit of the doubt. I haven’t seen such an eruption of bigotry and racism in my whole life — all following the election of a black President. It’s not a coincidence, and the craziness goes WAY beyond the usual GOP reaction to a Democratic President.
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