Religious Right Attacks Southern Poverty Law Center

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A who’s who of right wing politicians, religious right spokesholes, and anti-gay loons have signed a statement opposing the Southern Poverty Law Center’s classification of many far right religious organizations as hate groups. LGF reader Gus 802 pasted together this picture of the statement, which they placed as an advertisement at Politico:

Click to enlarge

The fact is, the groups on the SPLC’s list are unarguably spreading falsehoods and hatred for gay people; the Southern Poverty Law Center responds to this ludicrous example of right wing persecution politics here, with numerous examples of their sick agenda and appalling hate speech: SPLC Responds to Attack by FRC, Conservative Republicans.

Consider a few of the comments about gays and lesbians that have come from some of the groups now denouncing character assassination. The FRC, in a booklet entitled Homosexual Activists Work to Normalize Sex With Boys, has claimed that “one of the primary goals of the homosexual rights movement is to abolish all age of consent laws and to eventually recognize pedophiles as the ‘prophets’ of a new sexual order.” The American Family Association’s Bryan Fischer wrote this year that “[h]omosexuality gave us Adolph Hitler, and homosexuals in the military gave us the Brown Shirts, the Nazi war machine and 6 million dead Jews.” Matt Barber of Liberty Counsel, which was not listed by the SPLC but helped organize today’s newspaper ad, describes relationships between gay men as “one man violently cramming his penis into another man’s lower intestine and calling it ‘love.’” Officials of several, including the FRC, have called for criminalizing gay sex.

Almost all the religious-right groups named by the SPLC also have engaged in a particularly toxic and widespread defamation of gay men: The claim that they are essentially pedophiles who molest children at far higher rates than heterosexuals.

In fact, this became the crux of my “debate” with the FRC’s Perkins — the claim, as he put it in the very last moments of the show, that “the research is overwhelming that homosexuality poses a danger to children.” To prove this, Perkins cited an outfit called the American College of Pediatricians, which certainly sounded authoritative. But he was being less than honest, to say the least. In fact, the American College of Pediatricians is a tiny group that broke away from the real professional association — the similarly named American Academy of Pediatrics — specifically because that 60,000-member organization had endorsed gay and lesbian parenting. Perkins’ move was enough to cause Chris Matthews to run a special segment two days later that explained the difference between the academy and the so-called college.

The reality is that virtually all real researchers in the field have concluded, as did the American Psychological Association in an official statement, that “homosexual men are not more likely to sexually abuse children than heterosexual men are.”

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772 comments
1 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:21:46am

Wow the crazy is coming in hard and fast today, none of the other threads started have yet to hit 50 posts, let alone triple digits!

2 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:23:14am

Spokeholes. That made this a tad bit easier to read.

3 Interesting Times  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:25:23am

The SPLC calling the FRC and AFA bigoted? "Character assassination."

The FRC and AFA calling gay people perverts and pedophiles? All-American patriotic Christian goodness 9_9

4 Randall Gross  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:25:26am

Boehner is on this list...

5 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:31:27am

re: #3 publicityStunted

The SPLC calling the FRC and AFA bigoted? "Character assassination."

The FRC and AFA calling gay people perverts and pedophiles? All-American patriotic Christian goodness 9_9

Whiners. Buncha whiners.

6 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:34:10am

re: #2 Stanley Sea

Spokeholes. That made this a tad bit easier to read.

That's another one of my favorite terms in politics. Especially for clowns like this. I up-dinged Charles post based on its use alone before even reading the rest.

7 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:34:49am

re: #4 Thanos

Boehner is on this list...

And Eric Cantor, David Limbaugh but not Rush, Bobby Jindal... it's quite a list.

8 recusancy  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:35:21am

re: #4 Thanos

Boehner is on this list...

Shhhh.. You might make him cry.

9 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:36:42am

"STOP HATING US FOR HATING!!1!!ONE!1!"

10 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:36:59am

It's such a sophisticated argument:

"We're not haters!!11! You're haters!!1!!! You're just trying to shut us up!

11 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:37:07am

re: #4 Thanos

Boehner may not really be a bigot but if you lay down with dogs you're gonna get fleas.

12 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:38:10am

Yea Gus!! The pic isn't opening very large though.

Do I need to point out that Hitler is not the scapegoat for any and everything you don't happen to like. Just how do they get to Hitler from homosexuality? I know I've heard this one before.

13 jaunte  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:38:12am
Tell the radical Left it is time to stop spreading hateful rhetoric attacking individuals and organizations merely for expressing ideas with which they disagree.


Pathetic. Consigning people to second class citizenship is hateful, and they know it.

14 General Nimrod Bodfish  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:38:21am

Give me one good, non-religious reason, backed up by respected organizations and research, on why homosexuals should not be afforded the right to marry. Just one on why they shouldn't have the same benefits as heterosexuals. Just one on why they should be allowed to adopt or raise children. Just one on why homosexuals are a public health risk. Just. One.

I'm not holding my breath.

15 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:41:48am

re: #12 marjoriemoon

Yea Gus!! The pic isn't opening very large though.

Do I need to point out that Hitler is not the scapegoat for any and everything you don't happen to like. Just how do they get to Hitler from homosexuality? I know I've heard this one before.

Chewbacca defense. If Darwin leads to Hitler, then thats where the gay agenda to anally rape all our children and turn them into commies comes from.

/Look at the silly monkey...

16 General Nimrod Bodfish  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:42:00am

re: #14 commadore183

Just one on why they should not be allowed to adopt or raise children.

PIMF.

17 jaunte  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:42:06am

Topical statements from some of the FRC's 'debaters':
[Link: www.goodasyou.org...]

18 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:42:37am

re: #15 ArchangelMichael

Chewbacca defense. If Darwin leads to Hitler, then thats where the gay agenda to anally rape all our children and turn them into commies comes from.

/Look at the silly monkey...

Also, the whole 'all the Nazis were gay' routine.

19 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:44:00am

re: #13 jaunte

Pathetic. Consigning people to second class citizenship is hateful, and they know it.

Yes, but sadly they also seem to "know" deep down that certain people were made by god to be second class citizens.....

20 recusancy  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:45:39am

re: #11 Dreggas

Boehner may not really be a bigot but if you lay down with dogs you're gonna get fleas.

Boehner's totally against bigots! As long as that bigot is bigoted against a bigot.

21 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:50:02am

re: #17 jaunte

Topical statements from some of the FRC's 'debaters':
[Link: www.goodasyou.org...]

Nice link. Has an easily printed list of the signers, in addition to the quotations form some "I'm not a hater, you are" haters.

22 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:50:37am

Note: I restored 000G's account, because he emailed and apologized for acting like a jerk.

23 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:51:01am

re: #18 SanFranciscoZionist

Also, the whole 'all the Nazis were gay' routine.

24 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:53:29am

re: #15 ArchangelMichael

Chewbacca defense. If Darwin leads to Hitler, then thats where the gay agenda to anally rape all our children and turn them into commies comes from.

/Look at the silly monkey...

Sorry, too busy looking at the shiny buttons...

Now, to get from gay --> Hitler, I have to get from Darwin ---> Hitler. No wonder these people are crazy.

25 jaunte  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:53:52am

re: #21 wrenchwench

Laughing at the last comment today at that link:

Gabriel Hudson
I know it's been said before, but what I find ironic about the FRC's new Stop Hating Start Debating site is that there is no place to actually debate. There's no comments. It just lists echo-chamber groups. All the sites either don't allow comments or edit out any contrary opinion. I'm not sure what the "Start Debating" part even means.
26 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:55:29am

re: #24 marjoriemoon

Sorry, too busy looking at the shiny buttons...

Now, to get from gay --> Hitler, I have to get from Darwin ---> Hitler. No wonder these people are crazy.

Easy. Darwin came back from the dead and was one of Hitler's top aids. Zombie Darwin was also gay, he only ate men's brains.

27 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:56:11am

An excerpt from the FRC screed:

We, the undersigned, stand in solidarity with Family Research Council, American Family Association, Concerned Women of America, National Organization for Marriage, Liberty Counsel and other pro-family organizations that are working to protect and promote natural marriage and family. We support the vigorous but responsible exercise of the First Amendment rights of free speech and religious liberty that are the birthright of all Americans.

There you have it folks natural marriage and natural family. The bit about natural marriage is interesting considering that it is a man made convention.

28 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:57:11am

re: #21 wrenchwench

Nice link. Has an easily printed list of the signers, in addition to the quotations form some "I'm not a hater, you are" haters.

Lot of "liberty" and "concern" on that list.

29 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:58:42am

re: #27 Gus 802

More fun from the humans:

Un-natural marriages

Any marriage that is non-monogamous (polygamy), non-heterosexual (gay marriage) and non-human (bestiality) is an un-natural marriage in what the Church calls natural law.

30 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 11:58:53am

re: #17 jaunte

Topical statements from some of the FRC's 'debaters':
[Link: www.goodasyou.org...]

Joseph Farrah is also on that list LOL I know, I know, your mouth's on the floor, right?

31 jaunte  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:00:15pm

re: #28 Decatur Deb

And Traditional Supporters of Traditional Traditions.

32 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:00:54pm

re: #29 Gus 802

Notice how gay marriage is lumped in with bestiality.

This is a common paranoid derangement with some that oppose gay marriage. That gay marriage would lead to people marrying their horses. It's a bit absurd because heterosexual marriage didn't lead to people marrying their horses.

33 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:01:42pm

re: #24 marjoriemoon

Sorry, too busy looking at the shiny buttons...

Now, to get from gay --> Hitler, I have to get from Darwin ---> Hitler. No wonder these people are crazy.

The Great Theologian Kirk Cameron shows you the path.

34 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:01:46pm

re: #32 Gus 802

Notice how gay marriage is lumped in with bestiality.

This is a common paranoid derangement with some that oppose gay marriage. That gay marriage would lead to people marrying their horses. It's a bit absurd because heterosexual marriage didn't lead to people marrying their horses.

There you go, making sense again.

35 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:02:14pm

re: #29 Gus 802

More fun from the humans:

Coming from the Church, I can understand. I mean religious people say these things and even if they're misguided, I can follow the thinking. There are, of course, religious Christians, Jews and Muslims who have no problem with gay folks.

To me, the bigger issue are folks who aren't affiliated with religion, such as journalists, talk show pundits, etc. and particularly our government officials who are supposed to be representing everyone.

36 Sinistershade  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:03:00pm

re: #29 Gus 802

More fun from the humans:

Who knew the Religious Right was so into Catholic doctrine? //

37 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:03:10pm

I can't help noticing that our Wikileaks supporters have absolutely nothing to say about the Holocaust denier who works as Wikileaks' Russian representative.

The silence is deafening.

38 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:03:47pm

re: #32 Gus 802

I just assume now that whoever compares gay marriage to bestiality is pissed that society wouldn't let him marry the horse of his dreams, and damnit no one else can be happy!!

39 Batman  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:04:11pm

Character assassination is the crux of this anti-gay hate movement's argument. I guess they've found their own medicine doesn't taste as great as they'd thought.

40 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:04:51pm

re: #33 ArchangelMichael

Darwin hated Gd and the Ladies, too! Oh my...

I ♥ the Young Turks!

41 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:05:31pm

re: #25 jaunte

Laughing at the last comment today at that link:

The idea of "debating" whether you deserve the same rights as regular folks is a disgusting one.

42 Kragar  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:06:05pm

re: #33 ArchangelMichael

The Great Theologian Kirk Cameron shows you the path.

[Video]

The next St Thomas Aquinas, that one.

43 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:07:13pm

Here's the text of the FRC ad again:

The surest sign one is losing a debate is to resort to character assassination. The Southern Poverty Law Center, a liberal fundraising machine whose tactics have been condemned by observers across the political spectrum, is doing just that.

The group, which was once known for combating racial bigotry, is now attacking several groups that uphold Judeo-Christian moral views, including marriage as the union of a man and a woman. How does the SPLC attack? By labeling its opponents “hate groups.” No discussion. No consideration of the issues. No engagement. No debate

These type of slanderous tactics have been used against voters who signed petitions and voted for marriage amendments in all thirty states that have considered them, as well as against the millions of Americans who identify with the Tea Party movement. Some on the Left have even impugned the Manhattan Declaration-which upholds the sanctity of life, the value of traditional marriage and the fundamental right of religious freedom-as an anti-gay document and have forced its removal from general communications networks.

This is intolerance pure and simple. Elements of the radical Left are trying to shut down informed discussion of policy issues that are being considered by Congress, legislatures, and the courts. Tell the radical Left it is time to stop spreading hateful rhetoric attacking individuals and organizations merely for expressing ideas with which they disagree. Our debates can and must remain civil - but they must never be suppressed through personal assaults that aim only to malign an opponents character.

You can take action by adding your name to the following statement:

We, the undersigned, stand in solidarity with Family Research Council, American Family Association, Concerned Women of America, National Organization for Marriage, Liberty Counsel and other pro-family organizations that are working to protect and promote natural marriage and family. We support the vigorous but responsible exercise of the First Amendment rights of free speech and religious liberty that are the birthright of all Americans.

44 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:08:34pm

The SPLC is not "the radical left".

45 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:08:55pm

offend me, hate me anyway you want to
as long as you love me it's alright....

I'm gonna be a songwriter

46 jaunte  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:09:11pm

re: #41 wrenchwench

I can see why the FRC doesn't want a real discussion.

47 jeffm70  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:09:55pm

It's sickening these religious groups are taken seriously as God's workers.

48 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:10:06pm

re: #44 Gus 802

The SPLC is not "the radical left".

It is if you sit on the radical right.

49 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:11:35pm

re: #44 Gus 802

The SPLC is not "the radical left".

And calling them "a liberal fundraising machine" is rich. Cleaning out the coffers of the KKK is the best possible fundraising scheme ever devised.

50 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:11:45pm

re: #37 Charles

A little bird tells me you might be getting an interesting email soon.

51 Kragar  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:12:00pm

re: #47 jeffm70

It's sickening these religious groups are taken seriously as God's workers.

I think which God they work for is seriously debatable.

52 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:12:44pm

re: #51 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I think which God they work for is seriously debatable.

Not the debate they had in mind. They should be careful what they ask for.

53 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:13:07pm

re: #49 wrenchwench

And calling them "a liberal fundraising machine" is rich. Cleaning out the coffers of the KKK is the best possible fundraising scheme ever devised.

I like the way they swing from "liberal" to "radical left". Clueless.

54 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:13:29pm

"[h]omosexuality gave us Adolph Hitler, and homosexuals in the military gave us the Brown Shirts, the Nazi war machine and 6 million dead Jews.”

they really mean to say "vegetarians gave us Adolph Hitler...". or maybe it was austrians...

55 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:13:40pm

re: #37 Charles

I can't help noticing that our Wikileaks supporters have absolutely nothing to say about the Holocaust denier who works as Wikileaks' Russian representative.

The silence is deafening.

Barret is busy posting Russian conspiracy theories. I wonder if there's a connection.

56 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:14:38pm
57 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:14:41pm

re: #51 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I think which God they work for is seriously debatable.

Pretty sure it's not Crom.

58 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:14:42pm

re: #37 Charles

I can't help noticing that our Wikileaks supporters have absolutely nothing to say about the Holocaust denier who works as Wikileaks' Russian representative.

The silence is deafening.

What would be the point?

59 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:14:54pm

to the reich wing, the protestant episcopal church is part of the radical left

60 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:15:03pm

re: #53 Gus 802

I like the way they swing from "liberal" to "radical left". Clueless.

Which is like saying Dianne Feinstein and Alex Cockburn are ideological equals.

61 Kragar  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:15:55pm

re: #57 ArchangelMichael

Pretty sure it's not Crom.

Khorne. Possible Tzeentch. Slaanesh is right out, they're too uptight.

62 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:16:07pm

re: #56 Charles

Incoming!

Greetings, Sullivan readers. That's how I got here, some six or so years ago.

63 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:16:21pm

re: #60 Gus 802

Which is like saying Dianne Feinstein and Alex Cockburn are ideological equals.

They're all going to Hell. You're only arguing which pit.

64 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:17:10pm
The statement, whose signatories included House Speaker-Designate John Boehner and the governors of Louisiana, Minnesota and Virginia, ran under the headline, “Start Debating/Stop Hating.” It accused “elements of the radical Left” of trying to “shut down informed discussion of policy issues”and decried those who attempt to suppress debate “through personal assaults that aim only to malign an opponent’s character.” The SPLC, it said, was engaging in “character assassination.”

Since when is being gay or transgender a "policy issue."

65 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:18:39pm

re: #62 wrenchwench

Greetings, Sullivan readers. That's how I got here, some six or so years ago.

I can't seem to find the link on Sully's page. He's pretty pro-Wikileaks so I'm guessing it's not flattering.

66 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:19:00pm

re: #64 marjoriemoon

Since when is being gay or transgender a "policy issue."

seems to be the implication....makes me sick, highballing back to the Dark Ages

67 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:19:15pm

re: #44 Gus 802

The SPLC is not "the radical left".

No, they are not the radical left.

The SPLC is not without controversy and neither is Morris Dees. Some of that criticism might be deserved, even. Most effective organizations and their leaders are criticized precisely because they are effective.

No, the SPLC is not perfect (unlike her critics)- but is clear as day they are certainly not evil. Their decades long record against injustice and intolerance stands on it's own and can withstand any legitimate scrutiny. They are imperfect, as are we all and they are as righteous and meritorious a group as humans can create.

Her critics should only have the SPLC's record of decency and humanity.

'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.'

68 Kragar  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:19:22pm

re: #65 Killgore Trout

I can't seem to find the link on Sully's page. He's pretty pro-Wikileaks so I'm guessing it's not flattering.

No. He's upset they leaked the Algerian reporters name.

69 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:19:29pm

re: #65 Killgore Trout

I can't seem to find the link on Sully's page. He's pretty pro-Wikileaks so I'm guessing it's not flattering.

It's here:
[Link: andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com...]

70 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:19:32pm

re: #64 marjoriemoon

Since when is being gay or transgender a "policy issue."

Don't you have LGBT insurance for your kids?

71 JeffM70  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:19:40pm

re: #65 Killgore Trout

I can't seem to find the link on Sully's page. He's pretty pro-Wikileaks so I'm guessing it's not flattering.

Maybe this?

[Link: andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com...]

72 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:19:59pm

re: #53 Gus 802

I like the way they swing from "liberal" to "radical left". Clueless.

It reminds me of the New Yorker cartoon in which Manhattanites look west and see wilderness, then the Pacific Ocean. To the wingers, just past the Hudson of their mind is "Radical Leftistan".

73 jaunte  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:20:02pm

re: #64 marjoriemoon

Since when is being gay or transgender a "policy issue."

As long as people like Huckabee, Bachman and Jindal can get votes from bigots.

74 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:20:19pm

re: #69 ArchangelMichael

It's here:
[Link: andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com...]

Ah, thanks. That's a nice surprise.

75 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:21:41pm

Gays are by no means the only target for the theocrat Goebbelists. I found this gem on the FRC website. It links the teaching of evolution to abortion and goes on to jointly blame them for the random murder of homeless people by depraved thugs:

Evolution and abortion a threat to the homeless?

A report released last week reveals that fatal attacks against the homeless have risen 59 percent in one year.

The report states that these violent attacks have become pervasive and routine by some young men and teenagers. Homeless people have been doused with gasoline and set on fire, attacked with bottles, metal pipes and baseball bats, often for the sport of it.

Some states and cities are moving to make such attacks hate crimes. Sen. Benjamin Cardin of Maryland, who has introduced federal legislation to address the problem, has said, "This behavior should not and cannot be tolerated in our society."

Sen. Cardin is right, but we have to ask a follow-up question: Could this brutal behavior be the result of a utilitarian view of life, the same one that brought us abortion on demand? Could it be the result of the teaching of evolution, the survival of the fittest to our young people, rather than providing them with an understanding that people are intrinsically valuable because they are made in the image of God?

What we teach and what we legislate have consequences.

Since some of the perps are in prison and therefore available for comment, the preachers might consider asking them if a belief in scientific evolution is one of their motives.

76 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:23:30pm

re: #64 marjoriemoon

Since when is being gay or transgender a "policy issue."

Funny coming from a crowd that's always quoting the Declaration of Independence: "all men are created equal". Yeah, it's not a gender neutral noun but man was always meant to include all of mankind.

77 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:24:11pm

re: #75 Shiplord Kirel

conservatism has taken an indefinite vacation...no location, no calls please

78 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:24:55pm

re: #75 Shiplord Kirel

Gays are by no means the only target for the theocrat Goebbelists. I found this gem on the FRC website. It links the teaching of evolution to abortion and goes on to jointly blame them for the random murder of homeless people by depraved thugs:

Evolution and abortion a threat to the homeless?

Since some of the perps are in prison and therefore available for comment, the preachers might consider asking them if a belief in scientific evolution is one of their motives.

What in the world? Evolution, abortion and the homeless?

79 McSpiff  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:24:55pm

re: #77 albusteve

conservatism has taken an indefinite vacation...no location, no calls please

Na, that's the cool part. The more people that notice its gone, the sooner it comes back.

80 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:26:08pm

re: #76 Gus 802

Funny coming from a crowd that's always quoting the Declaration of Independence: "all men are created equal". Yeah, it's not a gender neutral noun but man was always meant to include all of mankind.

extrapolate....gays, like black slaves, are less then men (or women)...people are gonna get real pissy about this in the near future, something has to give

81 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:26:12pm

re: #75 Shiplord Kirel

Gays are by no means the only target for the theocrat Goebbelists. I found this gem on the FRC website. It links the teaching of evolution to abortion and goes on to jointly blame them for the random murder of homeless people by depraved thugs:

Evolution and abortion a threat to the homeless?

Since some of the perps are in prison and therefore available for comment, the preachers might consider asking them if a belief in scientific evolution is one of their motives.

Breathtaking in it's shallowness.

82 Michael McBacon  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:26:31pm

"See, I warned you about the New Sexual Order!!1"
-Alekz Jonez

83 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:27:26pm

re: #79 McSpiff

Na, that's the cool part. The more people that notice its gone, the sooner it comes back.

as for me, it's just my style...but I'm becoming more apolitical by the day....marginalize me, fuck you

84 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:28:17pm

re: #78 Gus 802

What in the world? Evolution, abortion and the homeless?

it's a damned frenzy...like I say, there will be a reckoning

85 McSpiff  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:29:01pm

re: #83 albusteve

as for me, it's just my style...but I'm becoming more apolitical by the day...marginalize me, fuck you

Shit, nothing wrong with that. Politics has crept into things it should have never, like science. A little apolitics might help...

86 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:29:22pm

re: #12 marjoriemoon

Yea Gus!! The pic isn't opening very large though.

Do I need to point out that Hitler is not the scapegoat for any and everything you don't happen to like. Just how do they get to Hitler from homosexuality? I know I've heard this one before.

Try this one: http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/6861/frcpoliticoad.jpg

That way you can also read the signatories.

87 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:30:01pm

re: #76 Gus 802

Funny coming from a crowd that's always quoting the Declaration of Independence: "all men are created equal". Yeah, it's not a gender neutral noun but man was always meant to include all of mankind.

I actually know people who think voting should be restricted to white male property owners (a certain real estate operator comes to mind). Since I am such a worthy person, they cannot understand what my beef is with the idea.

88 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:32:07pm

re: #66 albusteve

seems to be the implication...makes me sick, highballing back to the Dark Ages

It really is unbelievably frightening, and I know we joke (well I joke), but if you think about it long enough, it'll send a shiver up your spine.

Part of it is controlling women, who they screw, when, how and when and how they have children. That's also wrapped up in that bizarre cult, the "Darling Daughters" or those idiot man-freaks who have secret fantasies about screwing their own daughters under the guise of "I'll pick your husband not you, because, quite, frankly, you're too stupid to make such an important decision on your own."

So they have to control the women and then they have to control the men who threaten their own sexuality, because you know that most of these guys are one wink away from going to the "other side".

Anyway, the SPLC rocks!

89 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:32:22pm

re: #65 Killgore Trout

I can't seem to find the link on Sully's page. He's pretty pro-Wikileaks so I'm guessing it's not flattering.

It was flattering.

[Link: andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com...]

90 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:32:52pm

re: #87 Shiplord Kirel

I actually know people who think voting should be restricted to white male property owners (a certain real estate operator comes to mind). Since I am such a worthy person, they cannot understand what my beef is with the idea.

I think I'm a distant relation to Son House....and proud of it

91 Kragar  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:33:03pm

re: #87 Shiplord Kirel

I actually know people who think voting should be restricted to white male property owners (a certain real estate operator comes to mind). Since I am such a worthy person, they cannot understand what my beef is with the idea.

Hell, the leader of one of the tea party groups has announced that on air.

92 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:35:12pm

re: #88 marjoriemoon

gender, sexual habits, skin color....the new Directorate of Species
which are you?

93 Ericus58  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:37:08pm

re: #86 Gus 802

Try this one: http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/6861/frcpolitic oad.jpg

That way you can also read the signatories.

And once again, my Congressman has validated my support. He's not there.
Good job, Dave.

94 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:37:18pm

re: #54 engineer dog

"[h]omosexuality gave us Adolph Hitler, and homosexuals in the military gave us the Brown Shirts, the Nazi war machine and 6 million dead Jews.”

they really mean to say "vegetarians gave us Adolph Hitler...". or maybe it was austrians...

They seriously believe the above has been proven by a kooky book "Pink Swastika".

95 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:37:21pm

re: #37 Charles

I can't help noticing that our Wikileaks supporters have absolutely nothing to say about the Holocaust denier who works as Wikileaks' Russian representative.

The silence is deafening.

*crickets chirp and tumbleweeds rustle by*

96 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:37:39pm

re: #92 albusteve

gender, sexual habits, skin color...the new Directorate of Species
which are you?

I'm a PETA'n

Of People who Eat Tasty Meat.

97 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:37:51pm

What hasn't groups like the AFA, Christian Coallition, and others not desreved to earn the label of bigot? They justify discrimation against homosexuals because some Nazis jsut happened to be gay. Using that logic maybe we should discriminate against heterosexuals and Christians for the same reason. They have no credibility what so ever and the fact that these assholes have any political capital what so ever is maddening. Bryan Fischer mocks medal of honor winners even though the coward himself would shake in fear if ever in combat. I try not to be angry person but fuck the Christian right. These people make their issue not spreading love but making people like my cousin and his husband out to be perverts simply because of their sexual orientation.

98 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:38:30pm

So they link to a website, Start Debating | Stop Hating, and what do I find there? Nothing about debating. No forum at all.

If they want a debate I'm game. Who's wit me?

99 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:39:02pm

re: #86 Gus 802

Try this one: http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/6861/frcpolitic oad.jpg

That way you can also read the signatories.

Oh nice! I got so excited, I closed the window LOL

100 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:40:09pm

re: #97 HappyWarrior

unHappyWarrior...it is totally justified to vilify the RR with extreme prejudice...and in fact it is a disease

101 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:40:24pm

re: #98 Gus 802

Here you go, Gus:

[Link: www.facebook.com...]

If you facebook, that is.

102 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:40:43pm

re: #98 Gus 802

So they link to a website, Start Debating | Stop Hating, and what do I find there? Nothing about debating. No forum at all.

If they want a debate I'm game. Who's wit me?

That "Start Debating, Stop Hating" crap is so ironic coming from these wingnuts, because they don't want a debate that threatens their narrow, twisted worldview and they're doubling down on the hate for anyone who isn't like them.

103 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:40:46pm

re: #92 albusteve

gender, sexual habits, skin color...the new Directorate of Species
which are you?

I'm not gay, but I'll stand on the side of the gays. They have much better taste in clothes and living room furniture anyway.

104 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:41:08pm

re: #98 Gus 802

So they link to a website, Start Debating | Stop Hating, and what do I find there? Nothing about debating. No forum at all.

If they want a debate I'm game. Who's wit me?

Debate is the last thing they want.

They want to preach and if they are really worthy, they will get to call themselves 'martyrs'.

105 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:42:50pm

re: #92 albusteve

gender, sexual habits, skin color...the new Directorate of Species
which are you?

Have a banana.

106 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:43:00pm

re: #101 Obdicut

Here you go, Gus:

[Link: www.facebook.com...]

If you facebook, that is.

Ah. So a Facebook war not really a debate.

107 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:43:06pm

What pisses me off is how they use their religion as an excuse for their bigotry. Read this story about a transgendered woman who got harassing letters from a DMV employee who processed her license work that changed her from M to F. That's simply unacceptable. These people oppose programs that will stop bullying because they somehow think picking on a kid because he or she's gay is a "Christian virtue."

108 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:43:59pm

re: #98 Gus 802

So they link to a website, Start Debating | Stop Hating, and what do I find there? Nothing about debating. No forum at all.

If they want a debate I'm game. Who's wit me?

There's a lot of Masters here, you should have no trouble finding one.

109 imherefromtheinternet  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:44:12pm

Ah yes, the Patriarchy Research Council strikes again. Sweet zombie jesus do I dislike those people... But the hate is in the holy book(s). What can you do? That's a tough nut to crack.

Fundamentalism is a positive danger to democracies everywhere.

110 Ericus58  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:44:43pm

re: #95 talon_262

*crickets chirp and tumbleweeds rustle by*

I've been grabbing the hot dog wrappers..... yep, sure is a desolate landscape of replies...

111 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:45:05pm

re: #101 Obdicut

Here you go, Gus:

[Link: www.facebook.com...]

If you facebook, that is.

From there:

#
Family Research Council
Jan Sen, I would like to point out that FRC is non-partisan. While we might do a lot with Republicans, we are not afraid of calling out some Republicans like we did in Louisiana. We work with people that support the principles of faith, family and freedom and are not simply a tool for the Republican party.


emphasis added...

112 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:46:00pm

re: #106 Gus 802

The debate is occurring in the Proposition 8 courtroom hearings right now, and the bigots are not coming out looking good.

113 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:46:12pm

re: #105 b_sharp

Have a banana.

watch your back about 5 million years from now

114 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:46:42pm

re: #109 imherefromtheinternet

How is the 'hate in the holy book'? Jesus doesn't say word one about homosexuals.

115 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:47:14pm

re: #111 wrenchwench

From there:


emphasis added...

If I am not mistaken didn't the FRC still support Vitter even after he was proven to be a complete moral hypocritcal? I am sure many of you all read about that elected official in Virginia who called the TSA patdowns "part of the homosexual agenda." His brother was busted for apparently photographing underaged girls in the nude. You know what they say about glass houses.

116 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:47:17pm

re: #23 ArchangelMichael

[Video]

Bay you call that proving the nazis were gay?

Mel Brooks makes everything better....

117 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:47:18pm

re: #112 Obdicut

The debate is occurring in the Proposition 8 courtroom hearings right now, and the bigots are not coming out looking good.

You would think they'd have enough sense to lay low.

Instead, they are shining a spotlight on their own stupidity.

118 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:48:06pm

re: #114 Obdicut

How is the 'hate in the holy book'? Jesus doesn't say word one about homosexuals.

maybe not, but it's sure rude to turn somebody into a pillar of salt for no good reason

119 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:48:16pm

re: #117 researchok

I don't know if you've followed the trial already, but so far they've basically been resting their argument that the word 'marriage' is special, and that, even though they admit they have no proof of it at all, the marriage of heterosexuals would somehow be damaged if gays could marry.

120 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:48:19pm

re: #114 Obdicut

How is the 'hate in the holy book'? Jesus doesn't say word one about homosexuals.

Stop confusing them.
//

121 recusancy  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:48:40pm

OT: Regardless of what Manning did, does anybody think this is ok for America to be doing?

122 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:49:25pm

re: #114 Obdicut

How is the 'hate in the holy book'? Jesus doesn't say word one about homosexuals.

But Jesus-inspired Paul does.

123 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:49:32pm

re: #117 researchok

You would think they'd have enough sense to lay low.

Instead, they are shining a spotlight on their own stupidity.

and leaving their fingerprints all over everything...time for a round up!....yeehaa, show em how it really works!
jus kidding

124 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:49:36pm

re: #75 Shiplord Kirel

Gays are by no means the only target for the theocrat Goebbelists. I found this gem on the FRC website. It links the teaching of evolution to abortion and goes on to jointly blame them for the random murder of homeless people by depraved thugs:

Evolution and abortion a threat to the homeless?

Since some of the perps are in prison and therefore available for comment, the preachers might consider asking them if a belief in scientific evolution is one of their motives.


Sen. Cardin is right, but we have to ask a follow-up question: Could this brutal behavior be the result of a utilitarian view of life, the same one that brought us abortion on demand? Could it be the result of the teaching of evolution, the survival of the fittest to our young people, rather than providing them with an understanding that people are intrinsically valuable because they are made in the image of God?

What we teach and what we legislate have consequences.

Every state in the union has laws prohibiting violence against others and murder. He admits that states are moving to increase the penalties for these crimes by listing them as 'hate crimes'. So, how can he say the value of human life is not protected by legislation? That makes no sense.

125 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:50:00pm

re: #113 albusteve

watch your back about 5 million years from now

Sorry Steve, it was a reference to the banana as the perfect God designed food according to Ray Comfort, not a claim that you're a monkey.

I am however, a chimp.

126 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:50:12pm

re: #115 HappyWarrior

If I am not mistaken didn't the FRC still support Vitter even after he was proven to be a complete moral hypocritcal? I am sure many of you all read about that elected official in Virginia who called the TSA patdowns "part of the homosexual agenda." His brother was busted for apparently photographing underaged girls in the nude. You know what they say about glass houses.

Vitter is a signer on this "petition". If they did not approve of him, he wouldn't be there.

127 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:50:34pm

re: #122 Sergey Romanov

Meh, the translation of that bit is kind of in question. If I'm thinking of the right part.

128 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:50:58pm

re: #118 albusteve

maybe not, but it's sure rude to turn somebody into a pillar of salt for no good reason

Maybe she was the salt of the earth?

129 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:52:25pm

re: #121 recusancy

OT: Regardless of what Manning did, does anybody think this is ok for America to be doing?

Doing what? Not paying attention to Socky McSockpuppet?

130 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:52:50pm

re: #125 b_sharp

Sorry Steve, it was a reference to the banana as the perfect God designed food according to Ray Comfort, not a claim that you're a monkey.

I am however, a chimp.

Soldiers of the Great Ape Overlords....my hero

131 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:53:11pm

re: #121 recusancy

OT: Regardless of what Manning did, does anybody think this is ok for America to be doing?

Glenn Greenwald is a dishonest lunatic. Manning is not being tortured. You have to take wikileaks supporters and their claims with a grain of salt.

132 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:53:24pm

re: #121 recusancy

That doesn't sound factual.

133 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:53:24pm

re: #121 recusancy

OT: Regardless of what Manning did, does anybody think this is ok for America to be doing?

Putting an accused spy in the brig? I don't have a problem with it.

134 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:53:29pm

re: #119 Obdicut

I don't know if you've followed the trial already, but so far they've basically been resting their argument that the word 'marriage' is special, and that, even though they admit they have no proof of it at all, the marriage of heterosexuals would somehow be damaged if gays could marry.

Yes, I follow the case.

I'm all for marriage between consenting adults. Marriage is a social contract between the individual and the state, first and foremost. That is why we grant special status, obligations and privileges to married couples.

Matrimony is a religious contract- and confers additional agreed upon status to those who agree to accept that status.

All couples who agree are subject to the conventions of marriage.

Matrimony is optional and ought to be agreed on by the couple and religious institution, without interference from the state.

135 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:53:30pm

re: #126 wrenchwench

Vitter is a signer on this "petition". If they did not approve of him, he wouldn't be there.

Not shocked at all.

136 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:54:16pm

re: #121 recusancy

OT: Regardless of what Manning did, does anybody think this is ok for America to be doing?

Dropping the snark. Manning might come to think of these as "the good old days".

137 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:55:11pm

re: #121 recusancy

OT: Regardless of what Manning did, does anybody think this is ok for America to be doing?

Yep, looks OK to me. He's being treated like all military personnel are treated when facing such charges. I think it's rather astonishing that he should qualify for special treatment. If anything putting him in isolation is for his own safety.

138 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:55:24pm

re: #133 wrenchwench

Putting an accused spy in the brig? I don't have a problem with it.

If you can manage to wade through Greenwald's entire article he ends with a fundraising appeal for Manning's defense. That traitor is a hero to a lot of folks. Sad.

139 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:55:37pm

re: #133 wrenchwench

Putting an accused spy in the brig? I don't have a problem with it.

a cold cell is hell on Earth...I bet he cries the blues every night, little weasle

140 imherefromtheinternet  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:57:05pm

re: #114 Obdicut

How is the 'hate in the holy book'? Jesus doesn't say word one about homosexuals.

Jesus does not, you are correct (although some translators debate a few passages).

But so far as I know, the rest of the bible is also considered holy...

The Old Testament Leviticus laws require death for gays, and in the New Testament, Paul's letters to the early church have some pretty strong opinions as well - no gays in heaven. I don't know what the case is for Islam, but I bet it's not pretty either.

141 Kragar  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:57:26pm

Locking a suspected traitor away from the general population is probably doing Manning a favor.

142 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:57:47pm

re: #138 Killgore Trout

If you can manage to wade through Greenwald's entire article he ends with a fundraising appeal for Manning's defense. That traitor is a hero to a lot of folks. Sad.

I expect a late night infomercial pleading for funds for poor, oppressed individuals charged with treason.

Expect lots of tears and crying friends and grandmothers.

143 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:57:58pm

re: #121 recusancy

OT: Regardless of what Manning did, does anybody think this is ok for America to be doing?

Holding people indefinitely without charges, did this start with the war on terror, or has the USA always done this?

I don't imagine their are many people here who would think its ok for any country to do this.

144 Slap  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:59:00pm

re: #139 albusteve

For shame! Weasels are not allowed to be associated with the holiest of holies.

Do I need to sic the ghost of Robert Johnson on you, to remind you not to blaspheme?

145 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:59:05pm

And solitary confinement today is not like something we've seen in the movies. It's not like "Shawshank Redemption" or "The Bridge over the River Kwai."

146 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:59:07pm

re: #106 Gus 802

Ah. So a Facebook war not really a debate.

The ultimate insult. The Family Council lady told the Defender of Teh Ghey that he was an atheist LOLLL!

147 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:59:11pm

re: #134 researchok

Yes, I follow the case.

I'm all for marriage between consenting adults. Marriage is a social contract between the individual and the state, first and foremost. That is why we grant special status, obligations and privileges to married couples.

Matrimony is a religious contract- and confers additional agreed upon status to those who agree to accept that status.

All couples who agree are subject to the conventions of marriage.

Matrimony is optional and ought to be agreed on by the couple and religious institution, without interference from the state.

A simpler way to put is that no one is "married" in the eyes of the state anymore.

Instead, two people of any sex or combination there of, who are of legal age may enter into a civil union.

If some people wish to dress their civil union up in some religious event called "marriage" they are free to do so at any religious establishment that cares to offer their services to the event...

148 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:59:51pm

re: #141 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Locking a suspected traitor away from the general population is probably doing Manning a favor.

going cold turkey to his addictions to Playstation, the net, Twinkies, that sort of thing may cause irreparable mental damage....better keep him on suicide watch

149 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 12:59:55pm

re: #146 marjoriemoon

The ultimate insult. The Family Council lady told the Defender of Teh Ghey that he was an atheist LOLLL!

Ha! Classic. Why if you're for gay marriage you must be an atheist! No God believer would ever agree to gay marriage!

150 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:00:06pm

re: #127 Obdicut

Meh, the translation of that bit is kind of in question. If I'm thinking of the right part.

Liberal churches and theologians would like to think so. I don't see it though.

Romans 1 (NIV):

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

And of course OT still stands on this part since it is not simply a ritual commandment, but it says clearly that "it is an abomination", therefore it is a moral principle, even if the execution may not apply any longer.

151 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:00:29pm

re: #142 researchok

I expect a late night infomercial pleading for funds for poor, oppressed individuals charged with treason.

Expect lots of tears and crying friends and grandmothers.

Doesn't everyone have a right to a fair trial, which I assume includes competent council? By extension, they then have the right to raise money for their defence, do they not?

152 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:00:42pm

re: #138 Killgore Trout

If you can manage to wade through Greenwald's entire article he ends with a fundraising appeal for Manning's defense. That traitor is a hero to a lot of folks. Sad.

Here's a fragment form the middle:

...Manning clearly believed that he was a whistle-blower acting with the noblest of motives, and probably was exactly that. If, for instance, he really is the leaker of the Apache helicopter attack video -- a video which sparked very rare and much-needed realization about the visceral truth of what American wars actually entail -- as well as the war and diplomatic cables...

I think Greenwald needs a "very rare and much-needed realization about the visceral truth of what American wars actually entail." Putting a suspected spy in the brig in solitary is part of it.

153 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:01:08pm

re: #143 ozbloke

Holding people indefinitely without charges, did this start with the war on terror, or has the USA always done this?

I don't imagine their are many people here who would think its ok for any country to do this.

don't sweat it....they will cook up something in the interim, while sorting it out

154 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:01:17pm

re: #146 marjoriemoon

The ultimate insult. The Family Council lady told the Defender of Teh Ghey that he was an atheist LOLLL!

Oh, my lord, what a take-down.

155 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:01:49pm

re: #143 ozbloke

Holding people indefinitely without charges, did this start with the war on terror, or has the USA always done this?

I don't imagine their are many people here who would think its ok for any country to do this.

It's not indefinite, and he has been charged with 8 offenses.

[Link: www.wired.com...]

And yes, the GWOT rules showed we are not as good as I thought we were.

156 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:02:07pm

re: #144 Slap

For shame! Weasels are not allowed to be associated with the holiest of holies.

Do I need to sic the ghost of Robert Johnson on you, to remind you not to blaspheme?

well that could be interesting

157 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:02:24pm

re: #145 Gus 802

And solitary confinement today is not like something we've seen in the movies. It's not like "Shawshank Redemption" or "The Bridge over the River Kwai."

b.b.b.but - the friend who has apparently been able to visit him several times has noticed a change in his appearance and behavior!

He describes palpable changes in Manning's physical appearance and behavior just over the course of the several months that he's been visiting him. Like most individuals held in severe isolation, Manning sleeps much of the day, is particularly frustrated by the petty, vindictive denial of a pillow or sheets, and suffers from less and less outdoor time as part of his one-hour daily removal from his cage.

Me, I would have been thinking about the consequences before I did anything I could be arrested for.

158 BongCrodny  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:02:29pm

re: #108 b_sharp

There's a lot of Masters here, you should have no trouble finding one.

I've always considered myself a master debater.

159 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:02:29pm

re: #143 ozbloke

Holding people indefinitely without charges, did this start with the war on terror, or has the USA always done this?

I don't imagine their are many people here who would think its ok for any country to do this.

When you join the military, you lose some rights that the rest of us tend to take for granted. That's one reason they deserve our thanks for serving. The military justice system is separate and different from the civilian one.

160 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:02:32pm

re: #140 imherefromtheinternet

Jesus does not, you are correct (although some translators debate a few passages).

But so far as I know, the rest of the bible is also considered holy...

The Old Testament Leviticus laws require death for gays, and in the New Testament, Paul's letters to the early church have some pretty strong opinions as well - no gays in heaven. I don't know what the case is for Islam, but I bet it's not pretty either.

See this:

Jewish Perspective on Homosexuality

Some people of faith insist that homosexuality is gravely sinful because the Bible calls it an "abomination." But that word appears approximately 122 times in the Bible. Eating nonkosher food is an "abomination" (Deuteronomy 14:3). A woman returning to her first husband after being married in the interim is an "abomination" (Deuteronomy 24:4). Bringing a blemished sacrifice on God's altar is an abomination (Deuteronomy 17:1). Proverbs goes so far as to label envy, lying and gossip "an abomination to [the Lord]" (3:32, 16:22)...

I once asked Pat Robertson, "Why can't you simply announce to all gay men and women, 'Come to Church. Whatever relationship you're in, God wants you to pray. He wants you to give charity. He wants you to lead a godly life." He answered to the effect that homosexuality is too important to overlook, as it is the greatest threat to marriage and the family. Other evangelical leaders have told me the same.

But with one of every two heterosexual marriages failing, much of the Internet dedicated to degrading women through pornography, and a culture that is materially insatiable while all-too spiritually content, can we straight people really say that gays are ruining our families? We've done a mighty fine job of it ourselves, thank you very much...

Homosexuality is a religious, not a moral, sin. A moral sin involves injury to an innocent party. Who is harmed when two unattached, consenting adults are in a relationship? Homosexuality is akin to the prohibition against lighting fire on the Sabbath or eating bread during Passover; there is nothing immoral about it, but it violates the divine will....

Interesting food for thought.

161 JeffFX  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:02:41pm

re: #138 Killgore Trout

That traitor is a hero to a lot of folks. Sad.

It might even be most people. Over at Reddit, the crowd seems to be nearly 100% pro-wikileaks. Going between LGF and Reddit is like being on different planets.

162 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:03:09pm

re: #121 recusancy

OT: Regardless of what Manning did, does anybody think this is ok for America to be doing?

Socky McSockpuppet is starving for attention and thinks that solitary confinement is torture. That is itself a tortured definition of torture. As Obdicut pointed out in the overnight dead thread, his asserts are counterfactual. He can't be both: (1) not on suicide watch; and (2) taking brain crack prevention medications (anti-depressants), because the latter can provoke suicidal tendencies among some patients.

Besides, solitary is a proper treatment for a guy who is alleged to have passed on classified documents (by the hundreds of thousands at that) to unauthorized persons. He has representation and the reason that charges haven't been filed to date may be efforts by prosecutors and his defense lawyer to come to some kind of deal - and to extract further information about who he leaked to, means, methodologies, reasons, etc.

McSockpuppet would like to ignore the nature of the charges when claiming that led to Manning being placed in solitary. Moreover, as some others have pointed out upstream, Manning's life could be in jeopardy and this is for his protection.

163 Kragar  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:03:27pm

re: #152 wrenchwench

Here's a fragment form the middle:


I think Greenwald needs a "very rare and much-needed realization about the visceral truth of what American wars actually entail." Putting a suspected spy in the brig in solitary is part of it.

Unfortunately for Manning, what he believes doesn't matter in the case.

164 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:03:33pm

re: #153 albusteve

don't sweat it...they will cook up something in the interim, while sorting it out

Thanks albusteve,

I'm not just talking about Manning, as I have heard of people being held for years without charges since the war on terror, is it a new thing do you know?

165 RadicalModerate  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:04:15pm

Just a reminder.

The group orchestrating this "Start Debating/Stop Hating" echo chamber campaign against the SPLC is the Family Research Council, currently headed by Tony Perkins.

The same Tony Perkins who used David Duke's mailing list for a political campaign.

The same Tony Perkins who gave a speech to the white-supremacist Council of Conservative Citizens.

At least twice.

166 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:04:28pm

re: #150 Sergey Romanov

Liberal churches and theologians would like to think so. I don't see it though.

Romans 1 (NIV):

And of course OT still stands on this part since it is not simply a ritual commandment, but it says clearly that "it is an abomination", therefore it is a moral principle, even if the execution may not apply any longer.

"Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

That's the really interesting part for me...

Where in the Bible does it say how/we should punish the Lesbians exactly?

167 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:04:43pm

re: #155 Decatur Deb

It's not indefinite, and he has been charged with 8 offenses.

[Link: www.wired.com...]

And yes, the GWOT rules showed we are not as good as I thought we were.

Do we agree that people should have the right to a speedy trial?

168 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:04:46pm

re: #147 jamesfirecat

A simpler way to put is that no one is "married" in the eyes of the state anymore.

Instead, two people of any sex or combination there of, who are of legal age may enter into a civil union.

If some people wish to dress their civil union up in some religious event called "marriage" they are free to do so at any religious establishment that cares to offer their services to the event...

In principle, I agree.

That said, marriage in ingrained in our civil law codes (divorce, inheritance, property rights, etc).

I don't know if we can upset the apple cart that much. I'm of the opinion the less we interfere, the better.

169 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:05:17pm

It's not really character assassination. It is more like their character went out and murdered the character of millions of homosexuals and is now getting a character trial. Representing itself, their character is subsequently talking itself into a character death sentence.

Sometimes hate is an appropriate emotion. For example, I hate hate groups and racist slime.

170 Kragar  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:05:25pm

re: #166 jamesfirecat

"Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

That's the really interesting part for me...

Where in the Bible does it say how/we should punish the Lesbians exactly?

Spankings all around.

171 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:05:27pm

re: #145 Gus 802

Or the Great Escape.

172 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:05:28pm

re: #109 imherefromtheinternet

Ah yes, the Patriarchy Research Council strikes again. Sweet zombie jesus do I dislike those people... But the hate is in the holy book(s). What can you do? That's a tough nut to crack.

Fundamentalism is a positive danger to democracies everywhere.

Depends on your religion. It's not that way for Jews at all. And it's our book.

[Link: www.myjewishlearning.com...]

This is one of my favorite explanations of the passage from a religious Jewish perspective. Personally, I don't know how you can consider someone gay if they aren't having gay sex, but I suppose that's another topic.

173 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:05:29pm

re: #164 ozbloke

Thanks albusteve,

I'm not just talking about Manning, as I have heard of people being held for years without charges since the war on terror, is it a new thing do you know?

Good question.

174 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:06:14pm

re: #150 Sergey Romanov

Liberal churches and theologians would like to think so. I don't see it though.

Romans 1 (NIV):

And of course OT still stands on this part since it is not simply a ritual commandment, but it says clearly that "it is an abomination", therefore it is a moral principle, even if the execution may not apply any longer.

Sergey, unfortunately is correct. Although liberal theologians have tried to knight jump these verses and twist them into meaning something other than the evident, these words, in the original languages, is referencing same-sex activities.

Just because the text exists, it doesn't give any religionist the right to breech human rights by trying to incorporate this thinking into a governmental moral code.

175 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:06:24pm

re: #166 jamesfirecat

"Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

That's the really interesting part for me...

Where in the Bible does it say how/we should punish the Lesbians exactly?

I think they're supposed to mud wrestle.

BICBW.

176 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:07:02pm

re: #140 imherefromtheinternet

What passages of Jesus's statements contain anything that could in any way be interpreted as anti-gay?

The Old Testament Leviticus laws require death for gays,

Leviticus doesn't apply to non-Jews, and doesn't apply without interpretation from Rabbis, either. Do you think Jews think that gays need to be put to death?

And the bit of Paul, if it's the one I'm thinking of, doesn't really have a directly clear translation. Old versions of homosexuality don't map to the modern understanding of it, either.

177 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:07:10pm

re: #164 ozbloke

Thanks albusteve,

I'm not just talking about Manning, as I have heard of people being held for years without charges since the war on terror, is it a new thing do you know?

I do not...the WOT is new frontier

178 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:07:25pm

re: #167 ozbloke

Do we agree that people should have the right to a speedy trial?

Of course, but "speedy" here often means a couple years. Often it is the defense that requests delay, giving time to prepare a difficult case. Judges have thrown out cases when the delay is abusive to the accused.

179 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:07:45pm

re: #165 RadicalModerate

Just a reminder.

The group orchestrating this "Start Debating/Stop Hating" echo chamber campaign against the SPLC is the Family Research Council, currently headed by Tony Perkins.

The same Tony Perkins who used David Duke's mailing list for a political campaign.

The same Tony Perkins who gave a speech to the white-supremacist Council of Conservative Citizens.

At least twice.

Well then he would know hate when he sees it, right? //

Seriously, the disgust I have for this attack on the SPLC is so overwhelming I am unable to enjoy the thick, delicious irony dripping from it.

180 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:08:08pm

re: #64 marjoriemoon

Since when is being gay or transgender a "policy issue."

It became one around the time I started underming American family values and attacking John Boehner's and Eric Cantor's marriags by, uh, being alive.

Or something.

If I'm going to be a super villain, then I need better minions.

181 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:08:29pm

re: #172 marjoriemoon

Depends on your religion. It's not that way for Jews at all. And it's our book.

It may be your book but I think the Christians and the Muslims put it into the public domain.

182 imherefromtheinternet  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:08:30pm

re: #127 Obdicut

Meh, the translation of that bit is kind of in question. If I'm thinking of the right part.

There are several passages, not just one part. Regardless of intent (which makes no difference to me, personally) it is inarguable that persecution of gay people based on biblical interpretation has been a feature of Christianity for all of its known history.

And since people do take the doctrine of biblical inerrancy (somewhat) seriously, it is a pretty tough situation. I would say organizations like the FRC become inevitable.

On a lighter note, here is (probably) the most hilarious translation ambiguity in the history of the Bible: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_%28Michelangelo%29

In medieval times, Moses was depicted with horns, due to an ambiguous phrase that described his face on delivery of the 10 commandments.

183 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:08:40pm

re: #157 reine.de.tout

Yet, he's still managing to get visits from people who are sympathetic to Manning and can claim that Manning isn't doing well in prison.

Well, who comes out of prison looking better than when they went in? Ray Liotta in Good Fellas maybe (after being fattened up by his Family). But reality is a different story.

And Manning should have thought about the consequences of his actions before committing espionage, treason, or any number of other lesser included charges that would likely see him spend the rest of his life in prison (or death penalty if convicted of the highest crimes).

184 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:08:45pm

re: #166 jamesfirecat

heh. That was what I told my girlfriend to tell her mom when her mom could not let the biblical prohibitions go.

185 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:08:45pm

re: #157 reine.de.tout

b.b.b.but - the friend who has apparently been able to visit him several times has noticed a change in his appearance and behavior!

Me, I would have been thinking about the consequences before I did anything I could be arrested for.

If he doesn't have any sheets than he's probably on suicide watch. I don't really believe any of that though. They're making it sound like they treating him worse than the detainees at GITMO. This is likely PR being released by his attorney -- if he has one yet.

186 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:09:38pm

re: #150 Sergey Romanov

Ah, I was thinking of a different part. That part is quite a bit harsher. Thanks for correcting me.

It's good to note the vast difference between Paul and Jesus, of course.

187 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:10:14pm

re: #185 Gus 802

If he doesn't have any sheets than he's probably on suicide watch. I don't really believe any of that though. They're making it sound like they treating him worse than the detainees at GITMO. This is likely PR being released by his attorney -- if he has one yet.

Hmm, that link got mess up...

[Link: www.life.com...]

188 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:10:19pm

re: #166 jamesfirecat

"Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

That's the really interesting part for me...

Where in the Bible does it say how/we should punish the Lesbians exactly?

It doesn't. It was a declaration later by rabbis. Women were only precluded from having sex with animals - bestiality which was common among pagan tribes.

189 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:10:23pm

re: #159 wrenchwench

When you join the military, you lose some rights that the rest of us tend to take for granted. That's one reason they deserve our thanks for serving. The military justice system is separate and different from the civilian one.

Sorry wrenchwench if I was not clear.

I have been told charges have been laid against Manning, but I wasn't only talking about Manning or people within the US military.

It seems to me since the beginning of the war on terror the USA has adopted a policy of holding some people and not getting them a speedy trial.

I was asking whether it began with the war on terror.

190 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:11:01pm

re: #172 marjoriemoon

Depends on your religion. It's not that way for Jews at all. And it's our book.

[Link: www.myjewishlearning.com...]

This is one of my favorite explanations of the passage from a religious Jewish perspective. Personally, I don't know how you can consider someone gay if they aren't having gay sex, but I suppose that's another topic.

MM, see my 160

191 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:11:02pm

re: #180 celticdragon

It became one around the time I started underming American family values and attacking John Boehner's and Eric Cantor's marriags by, uh, being alive.

Or something.

If I'm going to be a super villain, then I need better minions.

You may be undermining family values, but I'm part of the attack on Christmas and Christians. We need to join forces, and really fuk-em-up.

192 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:11:06pm

re: #170 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Spankings all around.

Can't I have just a bit of the peril?

193 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:11:25pm

re: #182 imherefromtheinternet

There are several passages, not just one part. Regardless of intent (which makes no difference to me, personally) it is inarguable that persecution of gay people based on biblical interpretation has been a feature of Christianity for all of its known history.

Oh, absolutely. Wasn't the least arguing against that. Was more focusing on how, out of all the crap in the bible to pick from, the modern Religoius Right has decided the gays are what's important. Makes little sense, given how much time is spent talking about other topics.


And since people do take the doctrine of biblical inerrancy (somewhat) seriously, it is a pretty tough situation. I would say organizations like the FRC become inevitable.


In medieval times, Moses was depicted with horns, due to an ambiguous phrase that described his face on delivery of the 10 commandments.

Made for some great and weird art:
Image: moses01.jpg

194 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:12:11pm

re: #172 marjoriemoon

Depends on your religion. It's not that way for Jews at all. And it's our book.

[Link: www.myjewishlearning.com...]

This is one of my favorite explanations of the passage from a religious Jewish perspective. Personally, I don't know how you can consider someone gay if they aren't having gay sex, but I suppose that's another topic.

I'm sorry. I think it's an accurate, Jewish explanation, not necessarily a
"good" one. I don't agree with my religion when it comes to gays or abortion.

195 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:12:16pm

re: #185 Gus 802

Yeah, the man has a pillow. I need hard proof that is not true.

196 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:12:30pm

re: #187 Gus 802

Hmm, that link got mess up...

[Link: www.life.com...]

WHERE IS THE BATHMAT??

BRUTES!!!

197 recusancy  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:12:35pm

Is water boarding torture? There's no physical harm in that technique so if you believe it is torture then you would agree that one can be tortured mentally as well as physically. That is what America is doing to Manning. I don't think he's a hero. I think he should be convicted and face his penalties. I also don't think he should be tortured.

198 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:13:11pm

re: #189 ozbloke

Sorry wrenchwench if I was not clear.

I have been told charges have been laid against Manning, but I wasn't only talking about Manning or people within the US military.

It seems to me since the beginning of the war on terror the USA has adopted a policy of holding some people and not getting them a speedy trial.

I was asking whether it began with the war on terror.

I'm no expert, but if it didn't start there, it certainly was expanded upon since then.

199 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:13:24pm

re: #181 b_sharp

It may be your book but I think the Christians and the Muslims put it into the public domain.

LOL now that's just precious xxoo

200 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:13:27pm

re: #143 ozbloke

Holding people indefinitely without charges, did this start with the war on terror, or has the USA always done this?

I don't imagine their are many people here who would think its ok for any country to do this.


No, it started within the last ten years. Before that, the President had legal limits on powers and there was a thing called habeous corpus which we get from English Common Law.

Apparently, a bunch of half assed ragged terrorists are more scary to us then the 18th Century British Empire and the Axis Powers in the 1940's, becase this is the first time since the Civil War and even before that we have given the POTUS near dictatorial powers to order the arrest of any person (including an American citizen) without charge or review and torture that person to death if desired.

201 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:13:30pm

re: #193 Obdicut

Oh, absolutely. Wasn't the least arguing against that. Was more focusing on how, out of all the crap in the bible to pick from, the modern Religoius Right has decided the gays are what's important. Makes little sense, given how much time is spent talking about other topics.

And since people do take the doctrine of biblical inerrancy (somewhat) seriously, it is a pretty tough situation. I would say organizations like the FRC become inevitable.

Made for some great and weird art:
Image: moses01.jpg

Looks like he can satisfy two women at one time.

202 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:13:37pm

re: #178 Decatur Deb

Of course, but "speedy" here often means a couple years. Often it is the defense that requests delay, giving time to prepare a difficult case. Judges have thrown out cases when the delay is abusive to the accused.

Thanks Decatur.
You would hate to be innocent.

203 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:13:38pm

re: #188 marjoriemoon

It doesn't. It was a declaration later by rabbis. Women were only precluded from having sex with animals - bestiality which was common among pagan tribes.

So "God hates fags" but evidently he's okay with Lesbians....

///And people wonder why we refer to the all powerful in the masculine terms....

(Cheap joke)

204 Kragar  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:14:01pm

UCMJ Pretrial Restraint

Before any servicemember is confined or restricted, there must be a reasonable belief (similar to probable cause) that the servicemember committed an offense triable at court-martial and that confinement or restriction is necessary under the circumstances. Further, there must be a finding that lesser forms of restraint would be inadequate. See R.C.M. 305(d). Once confined the person must be told of their rights.

Each person confined shall be promptly informed of:

(1) The nature of the offenses for which held;

(2) The right to remain silent and that any statement made by the person may be used against the person;

(3) The right to retain civilian counsel at no expense to the United States, and the right to request assignment of military counsel; and

(4) The procedures by which pretrial confinement will be reviewed.

See R.C.M. 305(e).

The military justice system requires a review of the confinement decision within 48 hours. Within 72 hours, the military member is entitled to have his commanding officer review whether his continued confinement is appropriate. (However, if someone other than the commanding officer confined the member and the commanding officer review was actually conducted within 48 hours, then this commanding officer review can serve to satisfy both review requirements.) A military magistrate who is independent of the command must conduct another review within 7 days.

A military member may request the military judge assigned to the case review the appropriateness of the pretrial confinement. But in the military justice system there is no military judge until charges have been referred, an event that could be months away. So there are times when it may be appropriate to consider an extraordinary writ to the court of criminal appeals to seek release from unlawful pretrial confinement and/or punishment. There are also times when it may be appropriate or best for the client to remain in pretrial confinement (see below for confinement credit and other effects).

205 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:14:28pm

re: #197 recusancy

What the fuck, dude. Comparing waterboarding-- an invasive physical act that instantly causes terror and flailing fear for one's life, the sensation of drowning-- to solitary confinement with one hour out a day and visits?

That's insane.

That gives anyone who wants to argue waterboarding isn't torture more ammo to use, too.

Don't go down that path.

206 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:14:32pm

re: #197 recusancy

Is water boarding torture? There's no physical harm in that technique so if you believe it is torture then you would agree that one can be tortured mentally as well as physically. That is what America is doing to Manning. I don't think he's a hero. I think he should be convicted and face his penalties. I also don't think he should be tortured.

Oh please. Now you're bringing up water boarding? You're equating Bradley Manning's detention to water boarding and torture? Based on some fiction that Greenwald wrote?

207 recusancy  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:14:38pm

re: #195 sizzleRI

Yeah, the man has a pillow. I need hard proof that is not true.

I hope it's not true and it's just Greenwald being his usual quack self. But if it is true do you think it constitutes torture?

208 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:14:39pm

re: #186 Obdicut

When trying to horrify my very conservative and fundamentalist Christian family my mother would announce "Jesus was a Democrat and Paul was a Republican." Fun times. Of course they were only offended that Jesus would be a Democrat. My mom is kind of obnoxious. She is pretty harsh on crazy liberals too.

209 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:14:43pm

re: #203 jamesfirecat

So "God hates fags" but evidently he's okay with Lesbians...

///And people wonder why we refer to the all powerful in the masculine terms...

(Cheap joke)

I'm not touching that.

210 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:15:07pm

re: #192 jamesfirecat

Can't I have just a bit of the peril?


no, it's too perilous!

211 imherefromtheinternet  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:15:07pm

re: #193 Obdicut

Oh, absolutely. Wasn't the least arguing against that. Was more focusing on how, out of all the crap in the bible to pick from, the modern Religoius Right has decided the gays are what's important. Makes little sense, given how much time is spent talking about other topics.

And since people do take the doctrine of biblical inerrancy (somewhat) seriously, it is a pretty tough situation. I would say organizations like the FRC become inevitable.

Made for some great and weird art:
Image: moses01.jpg

Yeah. The religious right picks and chooses. They can eat their lobster, but the gays can't marry... You can get nearly anything out of the bible, really. Song of Songs is basically iron age erotic poetry. Hawt.

212 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:15:09pm

re: #202 ozbloke

Thanks Decatur.
You would hate to be innocent.

We have a very good legal system, but we are well advised to stay as far away from it as possible.

213 garhighway  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:15:36pm

re: #197 recusancy

Is water boarding torture? There's no physical harm in that technique so if you believe it is torture then you would agree that one can be tortured mentally as well as physically. That is what America is doing to Manning. I don't think he's a hero. I think he should be convicted and face his penalties. I also don't think he should be tortured.

If solitary is torture, then every state does it and a whole lot of countries.

Calling solitary "torture" is a good way to render the word meaningless.

214 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:16:05pm

re: #197 recusancy

Is water boarding torture? There's no physical harm in that technique so if you believe it is torture then you would agree that one can be tortured mentally as well as physically. That is what America is doing to Manning. I don't think he's a hero. I think he should be convicted and face his penalties. I also don't think he should be tortured.

Are you willing to take Greenwald as a reliable source on the matter?

P.S. I don't think rhetoric like "what America is doing to Manning" is reasonable.

215 recusancy  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:16:28pm

re: #213 garhighway

If solitary is torture, then every state does it and a whole lot of countries.

Calling solitary "torture" is a good way to render the word meaningless.

Every state does it but not for long periods of time. If they do I would say that it is cruel and unusual.

216 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:16:32pm

Assange and the Anarchist War Against the U.S.
By Yevgeny Bazhanov

In the late 1960s, I attended a university in Singapore. My dormitory roommate was a 19-year-old American student. He hung pictures of Che Guevara and Mao Zedong on the wall and spent days on end writing a treatise about when and how the “rotten capitalist system” in the United States would be overthrown.

In the 1970s, I worked as the Soviet consul in San Francisco. Every month or so, a crazed American anarchist would approach me and ask the consulate to provide dynamite or Kalashnikov machine guns to fight the “imperialist pigs” in Washington and cleanse U.S. society of the “capitalist filth.”

In the 1980s, I served at the Soviet Embassy in Beijing where the Chinese orthodoxy was already complaining that reformist leader Deng Xiaoping had betrayed Communist ideals, sending the country down the “slippery capitalist road.”

Now, in the 21st century, we have WikiLeaks founded by anarchist and anti-imperialist Julian Assange who is driven by a hatred for capitalism and the United States. In the modern age of the Internet, Kalashnikovs and dynamite are no longer necessary to try to overthrow the enemy. Modern technology and outstanding hacking skills allow anarchists to help weaken the United States, the citadel of capitalism.

Undoubtedly, WikiLeaks delivered a heavy blow to the United States. First, it showed the world that U.S. diplomats might smile to your face while they sharpen their knives behind your back.

Second, WikiLeaks exposed the vulnerability of the world’s most powerful country. Seasoned spies used to hunt for years for a single page of classified information, but WikiLeaks and its alleged main leaker, U.S. Private Bradley Manning, in one fell swoop scored more than 500,000 classified and secret U.S. military and diplomatic documents.

Third, the leaks will surely discourage the world from dealing candidly with the United States. Let’s say, for example, that Russia (or any other country) wanted to sign a secret agreement with Washington on a plan to arrest a top Afghan drug lord. Before any U.S. partner signs the agreement, it will wonder if the details of the operation will be splashed across the Internet before the plan can be executed.

Finally, WikiLeaks will surely inspire copycats who are just as zealous as Assange to undermine the United States at all costs.

217 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:17:03pm

re: #206 Gus 802

Oh please. Now you're bringing up water boarding? You're equating Bradley Manning's detention to water boarding and torture? Based on some fiction that Greenwald wrote?

AND...unlike the detainees at gitmo, he can have bacon.

218 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:17:06pm

re: #197 recusancy

Is water boarding torture? There's no physical harm in that technique so if you believe it is torture then you would agree that one can be tortured mentally as well as physically. That is what America is doing to Manning. I don't think he's a hero. I think he should be convicted and face his penalties. I also don't think he should be tortured.


Yes, water boarding is torture and it will kill the victim if something screws up. It is not "simulated drowning". It is controlled drowning. It was a favorite of the Spanish Iquisition.

219 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:17:12pm

re: #197 recusancy

If you think that his imprisonment conditions are torture than you should be in the street every day about the conditions of prisons across the United States. Solitary confinement for years is not highly unusual.

220 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:17:13pm

re: #203 jamesfirecat

So "God hates fags" but evidently he's okay with Lesbians...

///And people wonder why we refer to the all powerful in the masculine terms...

(Cheap joke)

James... did you not read the paragraph from Romans?

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

See... god hates lesbians equally... feel better now?

221 Kragar  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:17:40pm

I propose this solution to the problems of long term solitary confinement;

Don't be a traitor.

222 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:18:03pm

re: #200 celticdragon

No, it started within the last ten years. Before that, the President had legal limits on powers and there was a thing called habeous corpus which we get from English Common Law.

Apparently, a bunch of half assed ragged terrorists are more scary to us then the 18th Century British Empire and the Axis Powers in the 1940's, becase this is the first time since the Civil War and even before that we have given the POTUS near dictatorial powers to order the arrest of any person (including an American citizen) without charge or review and torture that person to death if desired.

Thank you celticdragon.

I suppose it also tells the world that its acceptable for any country to do it.

223 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:18:18pm

re: #215 recusancy

Every state does it but not for long periods of time. If they do I would say that it is cruel and unusual.

True but the other question becomes with someone like Manning... would it be crueler to not be keeping him in solitary where he's protected from those who might let their emotions run wild with them.

Its not pleasant but I'd personally consider this "protective custody" on at least some level...

224 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:18:34pm

re: #211 imherefromtheinternet

My friend Robert Alter, who's an amazing biblical scholar, read a portion of Song of Songs at my wedding. Not an erotic bit, though, a romantic bit-- the part about love being like a shield.

Here's his latest translations:

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

225 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:19:46pm

re: #220 Walter L. Newton

James... did you not read the paragraph from Romans?

See... god hates lesbians equally... feel better now?

He may say what they do is unnatural but where does it say how they should be punished for it?

226 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:19:57pm

re: #197 recusancy

Is water boarding torture? There's no physical harm in that technique so if you believe it is torture then you would agree that one can be tortured mentally as well as physically. That is what America is doing to Manning. I don't think he's a hero. I think he should be convicted and face his penalties. I also don't think he should be tortured.

how is he being tortured....or do I misread you?

227 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:20:00pm

re: #160 researchok

See this:

Jewish Perspective on Homosexuality

Interesting food for thought.

Good points. My argument as it was - is wrong.

However, let's look at the context, the whole chap. 18:

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘I am the LORD your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD.

6 “‘No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD.

7 “‘Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.

8 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s wife; that would dishonor your father.

9 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.

10 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter; that would dishonor you.

11 “‘Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father’s wife, born to your father; she is your sister.

12 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s sister; she is your father’s close relative.

13 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your mother’s sister, because she is your mother’s close relative.

228 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:20:21pm
14 “‘Do not dishonor your father’s brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.

15 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son’s wife; do not have relations with her.

16 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your brother’s wife; that would dishonor your brother.

17 “‘Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.

18 “‘Do not take your wife’s sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.

19 “‘Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.

20 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor’s wife and defile yourself with her.

21 “‘Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed[a] to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.

22 “‘Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

23 “‘Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.

24 “‘Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.

29 “‘Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.’”

Note that it does apply to non-Jews (non-Jewish peoples were punished for violations) and with the exception of the menstrual period, all the commandments are clearly moral, not merely ritual (which means that the verse 19 probably was also seen as a moral commandment, even if it's weird for us).

229 recusancy  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:21:17pm

re: #223 jamesfirecat

True but the other question becomes with someone like Manning... would it be crueler to not be keeping him in solitary where he's protected from those who might let their emotions run wild with them.

Its not pleasant but I'd personally consider this "protective custody" on at least some level...

There's a difference between separating a prisoner from the general population and depriving them of any sense of the world outside their own mind.

230 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:21:44pm

re: #207 recusancy

Honestly? No. Torture is a high bar. Waterboarding is. Solitary confinement is not. I am always a little surprised by the responses cases like this bring. The American prison system does far worse. They have held prisoners in solitary for 15 years. It is fucked up. But somehow people only seem to care when it is some 22 year old white guy who they feel is a political hero besides the fact he has been accused of breaking serious laws.

231 imherefromtheinternet  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:21:50pm

re: #172 marjoriemoon

Depends on your religion. It's not that way for Jews at all. And it's our book.

[Link: www.myjewishlearning.com...]

This is one of my favorite explanations of the passage from a religious Jewish perspective. Personally, I don't know how you can consider someone gay if they aren't having gay sex, but I suppose that's another topic.

The article offered still condemns gay sex. Hardly a step up. And like I said before, my problem is with the books. The Torah has the same issues as the Bible.

Obviously people of all religions are free to ignore outdated religious commandments, but that is not relevant to my point, which is that there will always be those who take the texts more seriously.

It's called fundamentalism, and there are certainly Jews on that side of the equation as well.

232 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:22:02pm

re: #228 Sergey Romanov

Note that it does apply to non-Jews (non-Jewish peoples were punished for violations) and with the exception of the menstrual period, all the commandments are clearly moral, not merely ritual (which means that the verse 19 probably was also seen as a moral commandment, even if it's weird for us).

Boy, the old guy sure knows how to kill a little fun.

233 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:22:05pm

re: #229 recusancy

Why do you think that's happening to him, though? He gets out once a day, right, even according to that article?

234 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:22:12pm

re: #229 recusancy

There's a difference between separating a prisoner from the general population and depriving them of any sense of the world outside their own mind.

Here. Meet ADX Florence.

235 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:22:54pm

re: #205 Obdicut

What the fuck, dude. Comparing waterboarding-- an invasive physical act that instantly causes terror and flailing fear for one's life, the sensation of drowning-- to solitary confinement with one hour out a day and visits?

That's insane.

That gives anyone who wants to argue waterboarding isn't torture more ammo to use, too.

Don't go down that path.


Solitary confinement is pretty common, and especially for a high risk/high value prisoner like Manning that you just cannot allow in general population.

I would object if he was being forced into sensory deprivation (lights out/24 hour manacles/eys covered/ears coverd) which is what happned to Jose Padilla. It arguably drove him insane and probably made it impossible to prosecute him on the more serious charges he initiially faced. It is also arguabl that the trial he did get is seriously flawed since he has paranoid delusions and hallucinates, which means he probably could not rally aid in his own defense. The court basically ignored that in the interest of getting some sort of resolution to the whole fiasco.

236 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:23:20pm

re: #230 sizzleRI

Honestly? No. Torture is a high bar. Waterboarding is. Solitary confinement is not. I am always a little surprised by the responses cases like this bring. The American prison system does far worse. They have held prisoners in solitary for 15 years. It is fucked up. But somehow people only seem to care when it is some 22 year old white guy who they feel is a political hero besides the fact he has been accused of breaking serious laws.

Is determining what causes intense fear in a person and then forcing that circumstance a type of torture?

237 recusancy  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:23:24pm

re: #226 albusteve

how is he being tortured...or do I misread you?

"For 23 out of 24 hours every day—for seven straight months and counting—he sits completely alone in his cell. Even inside his cell, his activities are heavily restricted; he’s barred even from exercising and is under constant surveillance to enforce those restrictions. For reasons that appear completely punitive, he’s being denied many of the most basic attributes of civilized imprisonment, including even a pillow or sheets for his bed (he is not and never has been on suicide watch)."

If it's true it's torture. Yes. If it's true.

238 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:23:48pm

re: #228 Sergey Romanov

Points taken.

Still, Boteach does make fair distinctions between what is immoral, sinful and perverse. There really are distinctions and all too often, that gets lost.

At least that is what I got out of his piece.

239 Lidane  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:23:51pm

re: #13 jaunte

Pathetic. Consigning people to second class citizenship is hateful, and they know it.

Of course they know it, but they don't consider homosexuals to be people. They think of gays as animals, or as subhuman, so to these assholes, all their bigotry and hate really isn't hate at all.

240 darthstar  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:24:00pm

Fox News - man, they really just don't get it...and this is on their Latino themed site...

Image: penelope_fox_anchor_baby-thumb-640xauto-1787.jpg

241 recusancy  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:24:23pm

re: #236 b_sharp

Is determining what causes intense fear in a person and then forcing that circumstance a type of torture?

ie Winston's rats in 1984.

242 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:24:24pm

re: #220 Walter L. Newton

I feel better. Sex is way more fun when god is glowering at you.

243 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:25:01pm

re: #225 jamesfirecat

He may say what they do is unnatural but where does it say how they should be punished for it?

Read... James... read... " and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

In the Hebrew scriptures, the "due penalty" for same-sex activities was death... this passage in Romans, which is mentioning "unnatural" relations in regards to both men AND woman, is addressing a Jewish audience that would certainly understand what is meant by "due penalty."

Does that make sense?

244 Lidane  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:25:07pm

re: #14 commadore183

Give me one good, non-religious reason, backed up by respected organizations and research, on why homosexuals should not be afforded the right to marry. Just one on why they shouldn't have the same benefits as heterosexuals. Just one on why they should be allowed to adopt or raise children. Just one on why homosexuals are a public health risk. Just. One.

There isn't a single reason at all. Every argument against gays comes down to one of two things -- personal discomfort with homosexuality, or religious objections. That's it. There isn't a single good reason to deny equality to gays.

245 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:25:15pm

re: #238 researchok

Points taken.

Still, Boteach does make fair distinctions between what is immoral, sinful and perverse. There really are distinctions and all too often, that gets lost.

At least that is what I got out of his piece.

Haters will hate regardless. Do you think atheistic USSR was not homophobic? :-)

246 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:25:48pm

re: #190 researchok

MM, see my 160

That last bit is very good. It's not a moral sin.

My personal thoughts (non-scholarly thoughts, really) is that with everything Gd goes on about, namely idol-worship which is basically woven in and out of almost every story in all the books (as well as being the first commandment) homosexuality is way down on the totem pole. That doesn't mean it isn't important, it's all important, it just doesn't have the kind of priority a lot of people wish it did.

In my link, they talk about homosexuality disrupting the house, meaning if a man left his wife and children to have a relationship with another man, he would be abandoning his family and that's bad. Of course, what would the difference be if he left his wife for another woman?

247 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:26:08pm
248 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:26:17pm

How is the 'naturalness' of sex, of any kind, determined?

249 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:26:41pm

BBL

250 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:26:54pm

re: #237 recusancy

You're assuming (a bad place to be when relating to Socky McSockpuppet) that his description is accurate.

And no, that description, if true, is not torture. Courts around the world do not consider it torture. Courts in the US do not consider such treatment torture. Prohibiting items, limiting conduct, and constant surveillance are part of the usual operation of a prison.

Solitary confinement is part of the usual course of treatment of an individual who is in a high risk category - for crime committed and potential threats to and by the person (suicide risk/threat of bodily harm committed by others).

251 Amory Blaine  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:27:09pm

There is no debating with this scum. They are fucking bigots. It's all they understand.

252 Lidane  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:27:20pm

re: #248 b_sharp

How is the 'naturalness' of sex, of any kind, determined?

It's whatever the preacher in the pulpit calls normal. Everything else makes you a filthy heathen and an immoral sodomite.

253 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:27:33pm

re: #240 darthstar

Fox News - man, they really just don't get it...and this is on their Latino themed site...

Image: penelope_fox_anchor_baby-thumb-640xauto-1787.jpg

Oh my goodness.

254 Kragar  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:27:38pm

UN ceases Iraq sanctions

The U.N. Security Council on Wednesday allowed Iraq to develop a civilian nuclear program and ended a controversial oil-for-food program.

The Security Council also set June 30, 2011, as the end of Iraq's immunity from claims related to the period when Saddam Hussein was in power.

Here is reaction to the decision:

IRAQI VICE PRESIDENT TAREQ AL-HASHEMI IN A STATEMENT ISSUED BY HIS OFFICE:

"It is a great day in the modern history of Iraq. It puts an end to a painful era that has many lessons that must be understood thoroughly."

"This resolution opens the way for Iraq and other related countries, including neighboring Arab countries, to settle many pending issues ... Iraq has a real will to enhance bilateral relations with these countries to achieve joint interests and enhance the security and stability of all the people of the region."

255 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:27:40pm

re: #248 b_sharp

How is the 'naturalness' of sex, of any kind, determined?

Any toys are an abomination unto the Lord.

256 recusancy  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:28:02pm

re: #234 Gus 802

Here. Meet ADX Florence.

At least those prisoners have been convicted.

257 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:28:09pm

re: #237 recusancy

"For 23 out of 24 hours every day—for seven straight months and counting—he sits completely alone in his cell. Even inside his cell, his activities are heavily restricted; he’s barred even from exercising and is under constant surveillance to enforce those restrictions. For reasons that appear completely punitive, he’s being denied many of the most basic attributes of civilized imprisonment, including even a pillow or sheets for his bed (he is not and never has been on suicide watch)."

If it's true it's torture. Yes. If it's true.

Most everyone who is in isolation or solitary only goes out one hour a day. And they sit alone in the cell. If you're so worried about this now you should have been worried about it before. Bradley Manning should not get special treatment. If you want to change the penal system then look at the whole picture and not this guy.

258 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:28:45pm

re: #246 marjoriemoon

That last bit is very good. It's not a moral sin.

My personal thoughts (non-scholarly thoughts, really) is that with everything Gd goes on about, namely idol-worship which is basically woven in and out of almost every story in all the books (as well as being the first commandment) homosexuality is way down on the totem pole. That doesn't mean it isn't important, it's all important, it just doesn't have the kind of priority a lot of people wish it did.

In my link, they talk about homosexuality disrupting the house, meaning if a man left his wife and children to have a relationship with another man, he would be abandoning his family and that's bad. Of course, what would the difference be if he left his wife for another woman?

I read the piece you linked to.

My immediate reaction is that we have reduced immoral/sinful/perverse to a singular status (to serve what are really political and power agendas) and that does not serve us (or God) very well.

259 Kragar  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:29:08pm

re: #255 Sergey Romanov

Any toys are an abomination unto the Lord.

Abominations are the most fun though.

260 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:29:18pm

re: #256 recusancy

At least those prisoners have been convicted.

Bradley Manning is in the US Army. He's not a regular citizen. Everyone going into the military knows that it's a different world there. He's probably getting treated better than most military prisoners.

261 Lidane  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:29:23pm

re: #240 darthstar

Fox News - man, they really just don't get it...and this is on their Latino themed site...

Image: penelope_fox_anchor_baby-thumb-640xauto-1787.jpg

How the FUCK are they having an "anchor baby" when both Penelope Cruz and Javier Bardem are from Spain and are Spanish citizens?

Dear Fox-- if you're going to be bigots, at least get your memes right. Assholes.

262 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:29:51pm

re: #203 jamesfirecat

So "God hates fags" but evidently he's okay with Lesbians...

///And people wonder why we refer to the all powerful in the masculine terms...

(Cheap joke)

There is so little in the Torah about gays. It takes greater minds than mine to sort it out, but the fact that there isn't a lot about it probably says a great deal.

I think it's not frowned upon with women because it's common for women to live together without a man in the house more often than two men living together, but I'm not quite clear on that either.

263 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:30:17pm

re: #237 recusancy

"For 23 out of 24 hours every day—for seven straight months and counting—he sits completely alone in his cell. Even inside his cell, his activities are heavily restricted; he’s barred even from exercising and is under constant surveillance to enforce those restrictions. For reasons that appear completely punitive, he’s being denied many of the most basic attributes of civilized imprisonment, including even a pillow or sheets for his bed (he is not and never has been on suicide watch)."

If it's true it's torture. Yes. If it's true.


Yeah, that looks purely punative, and that is kinda fucked up. Read the accounts of the Asian American scientist (Wen Ho Lee)who was charged with stealing nuclear weapon secrets back in the 90's. He was left in chains and handcuffs 24 hours a day while imprisoned and threatened with death during interrogation. All he got charged with eventually was improper handling of materials, and he got an apology from Clinton and 1.6 million in damages.

264 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:30:55pm

re: #250 lawhawk

You're assuming (a bad place to be when relating to Socky McSockpuppet) that his description is accurate.

And no, that description, if true, is not torture. Courts around the world do not consider it torture. Courts in the US do not consider such treatment torture. Prohibiting items, limiting conduct, and constant surveillance are part of the usual operation of a prison.

Solitary confinement is part of the usual course of treatment of an individual who is in a high risk category - for crime committed and potential threats to and by the person (suicide risk/threat of bodily harm committed by others).

I would also submit that solitary confinement is a damn sight better here than anywhere else.

265 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:30:57pm

re: #236 b_sharp

That is an interesting question. I don't enough. My first response would be that using someone's extreme fears would be a violation of the 5th amendment in a domestic court. Rules differ for the military and detainees.

However, American jurisprudence in the last 30 years has moved further and further form granting suspects 4th and 5th amendment rights. I think it should be a violation to draw a person's blood without their consent, but that has been allowable since 1966. So what do I know.

266 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:31:05pm

If you use your "god" as the moral gauge of what grown adults can or cannot do in the confines of their bedroom (or wherever they like to have sex), then I don't want to hear anything else about your "god" or possibly even from you.

267 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:31:10pm

re: #252 Lidane

It's whatever the preacher in the pulpit calls normal. Everything else makes you a filthy heathen and an immoral sodomite.

With all of the efforts at making at least one sect of religion (creationism) scientifically respectable, I would expect a more formal, (pseudo) science based criterion than just 'whatever that dude says'.

And some people like butt sex.

268 Amory Blaine  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:31:41pm

re: #240 darthstar

Fox News - man, they really just don't get it...and this is on their Latino themed site...

Image: penelope_fox_anchor_baby-thumb-640xauto-1787.jpg

These are Obamas "compromise" buddies.

269 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:32:20pm

re: #255 Sergey Romanov

Any toys are an abomination unto the Lord.

What's up with that?

I He doesn't like it, He doesn't have to use them.

270 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:32:49pm

re: #264 researchok

I would also submit that solitary confinement is a damn sight better here than anywhere else.


That would depend on how interested the jailors are in with screwing with you.

271 recusancy  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:33:06pm

re: #257 Gus 802

Most everyone who is in isolation or solitary only goes out one hour a day. And they sit alone in the cell. If you're so worried about this now you should have been worried about it before. Bradley Manning should not get special treatment. If you want to change the penal system then look at the whole picture and not this guy.

I do care about it for everybody. Our entire system of incarceration is screwed up. Prison reform is very much needed throughout America.

272 imherefromtheinternet  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:33:16pm

re: #262 marjoriemoon

There is so little in the Torah about gays. It takes greater minds than mine to sort it out, but the fact that there isn't a lot about it probably says a great deal.

I think it's not frowned upon with women because it's common for women to live together without a man in the house more often than two men living together, but I'm not quite clear on that either.

Hehe.

I would offer another analysis: old-school, traditional men were so obsessed with their anatomy that they literally couldn't imagine a woman would/could seek pleasure elsewhere...

Also, sex between men is seen as "feminizing," which is a definite taboo for a patriarchal desert nomadic clan.

273 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:33:17pm

re: #259 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Abominations are the most fun though.

Abominational snow-women especially.

274 jaunte  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:33:39pm

re: #267 b_sharp

Abumination!

275 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:33:53pm

re: #271 recusancy

So you honestly think every single person being held in solitary confinement is being tortured?

And you don't feel that you're minimizing the word 'torture' when saying that?

276 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:34:24pm

re: #262 marjoriemoon

There is so little in the Torah about gays. It takes greater minds than mine to sort it out, but the fact that there isn't a lot about it probably says a great deal.

I think it's not frowned upon with women because it's common for women to live together without a man in the house more often than two men living together, but I'm not quite clear on that either.

Given the polygamy it might have been acceptable for pragmatic reasons.

277 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:34:54pm

OK time to go. Don't feel like thinking about Manning now and I should get a few things done. Later.

278 recusancy  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:35:22pm

re: #275 Obdicut

So you honestly think every single person being held in solitary confinement is being tortured?

And you don't feel that you're minimizing the word 'torture' when saying that?

Again, I think it's torture when done over a long period of time. 6 months or more. The human mind can not take that.

279 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:35:31pm

re: #271 recusancy

I do care about it for everybody. Our entire system of incarceration is screwed up. Prison reform is very much needed throughout America.


I agree. Something has gone badly, badly wrong in a country that has 5% of the global population and 25% of all the global prisoners.

The incentives work towards financial rewards for the prison industrial complex...not keeping people out of prison to begin with.

280 Amory Blaine  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:36:22pm

re: #279 celticdragon

I agree. Something has gone badly, badly wrong in a country that has 5% of the global population and 25% of all the global prisoners.

The incentives work towards financial rewards for the prison industrial complex...not keeping people out of prison to begin with.

Apparently, lots of people think our prisons aren't full enough.

281 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:36:33pm

re: #228 Sergey Romanov

Note that it does apply to non-Jews (non-Jewish peoples were punished for violations) and with the exception of the menstrual period, all the commandments are clearly moral, not merely ritual (which means that the verse 19 probably was also seen as a moral commandment, even if it's weird for us).

I'm not trying to be rude, but you're not Jewish. More than that, you're not observant. I would be cautious commenting on very specific moral/religious Jewish issues unless you are.

282 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:37:38pm

re: #278 recusancy

What do you mean by 'the human mind cannot take that'?

Have you referenced a study or anything, yet?

283 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:37:59pm

re: #281 marjoriemoon

I'm not trying to be rude, but you're not Jewish.

So?

More than that, you're not observant. I would be cautious commenting on very specific moral/religious Jewish issues unless you are.


1. Why? 2. They're not specifically Jewish anymore.

284 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:38:32pm

re: #231 imherefromtheinternet

The article offered still condemns gay sex. Hardly a step up. And like I said before, my problem is with the books. The Torah has the same issues as the Bible.

Obviously people of all religions are free to ignore outdated religious commandments, but that is not relevant to my point, which is that there will always be those who take the texts more seriously.

It's called fundamentalism, and there are certainly Jews on that side of the equation as well.

The Torah and the Christian Bible are not the same. They are not translated in any way the same and the Christian Bible has had many multiple translations.

Jews, by and large, do not make a tizzy over the mention of homosexuality in the Torah, which yes, is considered an abomination. But if what you say is true, you'd see a lot more Jews out there making a ruckus and you don't.

285 recusancy  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:38:44pm

re: #282 Obdicut

What do you mean by 'the human mind cannot take that'?

Have you referenced a study or anything, yet?

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

286 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:39:28pm

re: #280 Amory Blaine

Or some acts are criminalized and penalized when they shouldn't be.

287 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:40:00pm

re: #280 Amory Blaine

Apparently, lots of people think our prisons aren't full enough.


Our emphasis on "Law and Order" is coupled with a desire for punishment and revenge. We get that from our Puritan past. Just look at any comment thread in a newspaper where an American is charged with something overseas in another country. 75% of the comments will be in favor of seeing the tourist get raped/killed/fill in the blank...

That sadistic juror in "12 Angry Men" is a real big part of middle America.

288 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:40:07pm

re: #275 Obdicut

The prison system is totally fucked up. Solitary confinement has many issues. But I never see any outrage until its in a sexy story like this.

It reminds me of when I heard some attorneys who represented Guantanamo detainees speak about the hearings and SCOTUS decisions. They were big attorneys form large firms and this was their pro bono work. And they were so damn proud of themselves, fighting for the Constitution and the principles this country was founded on. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate what they did, most attorneys could not have afforded to do it. But there are criminal defense attorneys and public interest attorneys across the U.S. doing it every day. For little money and no fame or respect. In fact they are often despised. There are civil rights and human rights violations occurring here, but it feels like no one cares.

To me, Manning is being treated better than many suspects and prisoners across the country.

289 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:40:22pm

re: #258 researchok

I read the piece you linked to.

My immediate reaction is that we have reduced immoral/sinful/perverse to a singular status (to serve what are really political and power agendas) and that does not serve us (or God) very well.

Some people do that, yes. It's not a good thing.

290 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:41:47pm

re: #282 Obdicut

What do you mean by 'the human mind cannot take that'?

Have you referenced a study or anything, yet?

A Canadian researcher did studies in the 60's on sensory deprivation, although that is much more severe than solitary. He claims you will break anybody in two days with complete sensory deprivation.

291 Amory Blaine  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:41:49pm

re: #286 lawhawk

Or some acts are criminalized and penalized when they shouldn't be.

Not according to US law, which is supposed to be democratic. How many criminal laws have been repealed in 30 years? None? How many have been enacted?

292 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:42:10pm

re: #287 celticdragon

Our emphasis on "Law and Order" is coupled with a desire for punishment and revenge. We get that from our Puritan past. Just look at any comment thread in a newspaper where an American is charged with something overseas in another country. 75% of the comments will be in favor of seeing the tourist get raped/killed/fill in the blank...

That sadistic juror in "12 Angry Men" is a real big part of middle America.

It's going that way up here too.

293 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:42:54pm

re: #272 imherefromtheinternet

Hehe.

I would offer another analysis: old-school, traditional men were so obsessed with their anatomy that they literally couldn't imagine a woman would/could seek pleasure elsewhere...

Also, sex between men is seen as "feminizing," which is a definite taboo for a patriarchal desert nomadic clan.

Actually, that's a pretty hot topic in Jewish circles! I've heard it discussed before. The "feminizing" thing, I'm not sure about. Jewish men are encouraged to please their women... that is... before she drops the nail file :>

294 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:43:18pm

re: #285 recusancy

That certainly shows that long-term confinement can be incredibly harmful to mental health. It does not show that Manning's confinement has amounted to torture, or, indeed, has amounted to the same solitary that those prisoners get.

The arguments of inefficacy that Gawande makes are very powerful, and everyone should read them. You're not doing that article any justice by using it in this context.

295 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:44:30pm

re: #283 Sergey Romanov

So?

1. Why? 2. They're not specifically Jewish anymore.

I'm not an observant Jew and I don't like to comment about things in my religion that I haven't studied. It's too big a topic with too many avenues to be specific when you haven't the whole picture.

296 recusancy  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:44:36pm

re: #288 sizzleRI

To me, Manning is being treated better than many suspects and prisoners across the country.

I would agree that he is being treated better then many suspects in the blogosphere, socialsphere etc... But he (the actual physical person Manning) is not.

297 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:45:20pm

BBL. Wife pickup time.

As she told me once - don't let your smarts go to your head.

298 Kragar  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:46:16pm

I once spent a weekend at home alone.

TORTURE!

299 Amory Blaine  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:47:23pm

re: #298 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I once spent a weekend at home alone.

TORTURE! HEAVEN!!!!

300 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:47:52pm

re: #285 recusancy

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

I'll bet there are an equal number of studies that differ.

Further, Harlow mostly studied monkeys and his research is not current (there is a reason the New Yorker omitted the dates of his studies).

It also bears noting that we have not confirmed his actual status- whether or not he is segregation or solitary confinement.

Lastly, solitary confinement has been challenged in court.

See US vs Avila.

301 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:49:16pm

re: #295 marjoriemoon

I'm not an observant Jew and I don't like to comment about things in my religion that I haven't studied. It's too big a topic with too many avenues to be specific when you haven't the whole picture.

We've been over this with LVQ. Again, when I discuss such texts I'm not saying "this church or thus synagogue should apply such and such interpretation". That's up to them. I can argue, for example, that the Genesis account was obviously intended to be taken literally, but I'll never say "therefore all who accept the Tanakh should accept 6000 y.o. Earth". These are separate issues. I understand that, for example, for Orthodox Judaism Torah is only half of the puzzle, so it makes no sense to discuss what observant Jews believe without going to the Oral Law. Also take into account that this discussion is in the framework of discussing the Christian religion, not Judaism.

302 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:49:26pm

re: #297 b_sharp

BBL. Wife pickup time.

As she told me once - don't let your smarts go to your head.

She's got nothing to worry about.
//

303 Amory Blaine  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:49:52pm

re: #300 researchok

Lastly, solitary confinement has been challenged in court.

See US vs Avila.

All kinds of shit gets challenged in court that takes years or many tries to change precedence.

304 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:50:24pm

re: #291 Amory Blaine

Not according to US law, which is supposed to be democratic. How many criminal laws have been repealed in 30 years? None? How many have been enacted?

Bzzz.. wrong. Rockefeller Drug Laws were reformed in NY. Other states have reformed laws, but you also have to recall that you're dealing with multiple jurisdictions.

305 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:50:52pm

re: #303 Amory Blaine

Just because something gets challenged in court doesn't mean that it will succeed.

306 Amory Blaine  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:51:01pm

re: #304 lawhawk

Bzzz.. wrong. Rockefeller Drug Laws were reformed in NY. Other states have reformed laws, but you also have to recall that you're dealing with multiple jurisdictions.

Yawn. Yeah The US is repealing laws like the dickens alright.

307 Amory Blaine  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:52:58pm

re: #305 lawhawk

Just because something gets challenged in court doesn't mean that it will succeed.

Um yeah that was the gist of my comment. What about segregation laws? Yeah, those were repealed immediately after the civil war because why? the courts are always right and filled with judicious individuals?

308 recusancy  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:53:06pm

What if I don't call it torture but still think it's despicable for America to do, especially for someone who isn't even convicted yet? Again, I hope Greenwald is just telling lies like many here already believe.

I also think the death penalty is despicable. It's been upheld in court also.

309 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:53:22pm

re: #301 Sergey Romanov

We've been over this with LVQ. Again, when I discuss such texts I'm not saying "this church or thus synagogue should apply such and such interpretation". That's up to them. I can argue, for example, that the Genesis account was obviously intended to be taken literally, but I'll never say "therefore all who accept the Tanakh should accept 6000 y.o. Earth". These are separate issues. I understand that, for example, for Orthodox Judaism Torah is only half of the puzzle, so it makes no sense to discuss what observant Jews believe without going to the Oral Law. Also take into account that this discussion is in the framework of discussing the Christian religion, not Judaism.

I think you meant to say that Genesis was NOT meant to be taken literally. But you see, many people do. Many observant Jews DO as well as DON'T so no, I would not say it's wasn't "meant" to be literally. That is up for discussion.

I happen to agree with LVQ on this subject. And the amount of observant Jews on this board is thinning which is a shame really. But I get a little bristle on my back when a non-Jew tries to tell me what observant Jews think about morality. I'm sorry if you're offended, but that's how it is.

310 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:53:44pm

re: #306 Amory Blaine

I could make my peace with some of that if the 4th Amendment was just a history lesson now.

311 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:54:42pm

re: #310 sizzleRI

*wasn't*

312 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:56:03pm

re: #309 marjoriemoon

But I get a little bristle on my back when a non-Jew tries to tell me what observant Jews think about morality. I'm sorry if you're offended, but that's how it is.

Sorry, but you're not getting what I'm writing. I explicitly write that I'm not discussing what observant Jews think about morality. I'm not discussing Judaism's take on these passages.

313 recusancy  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:57:08pm

re: #310 sizzleRI

I could make my peace with some of that if the 4th Amendment was just a history lesson now.

Well there was some good news on that front today: Appeals court: Feds need warrants for e-mail

314 Amory Blaine  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:58:01pm

re: #313 recusancy

Well there was some good news on that front today: Appeals court: Feds need warrants for e-mail


They'll just go after text messages like they always have.

315 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:58:09pm

re: #308 recusancy

What if I don't call it torture but still think it's despicable for America to do, especially for someone who isn't even convicted yet? Again, I hope Greenwald is just telling lies like many here already believe.

I also think the death penalty is despicable. It's been upheld in court also.

"America" isn't doing anything. Manning is in the military justice system. Have you realized yet that it's different from the civilian one?

I agree about the death penalty. I don't think Manning is being tortured.

316 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 1:58:12pm

re: #312 Sergey Romanov

I also think my #301 was quite clear on this matter.

317 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:00:06pm

re: #313 recusancy

Ahh, warrants, I think I've heard of those. Nice to see.

318 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:00:47pm

re: #314 Amory Blaine

You supposedly need warrants for text messages.

319 Amory Blaine  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:02:12pm

re: #318 sizzleRI

You supposedly need warrants for text messages.

Hmm news to me. Does that also include using cell phones to track suspects position on a map also?

320 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:02:44pm

re: #29 Gus 802

More fun from the humans:

I'm reasonably familiar with nature and there's nothing about marriage in it. /

321 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:03:49pm

re: #319 Amory Blaine

I said supposedly. Numerous exceptions make the rule pretty unusable. Cell phones in general, including tracking, are a mess when it comes to procedure and Constitutionality.

322 Kragar  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:04:50pm

re: #321 sizzleRI

I said supposedly. Numerous exceptions make the rule pretty unusable. Cell phones in general, including tracking, are a mess when it comes to procedure and Constitutionality.

If the Founding Fathers had intended cellphones to be covered by the Constitution, they would have written them into it!
///

323 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:07:13pm

re: #322 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I find it hard to believe that Jefferson would have wanted his sexting with Sally Hemings to be so easily available. Now Franklin on the other hand, he was more of an extrovert.

324 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:08:07pm

Hilarity of the day for me.

From the Start Debating, Stop Hating website:

OVER 150 LEADERS STAND FOR CIVIL DEBATE:

...

REDSTATE
ERICK-WOODS ERICKSON - EDITOR

...

Erick Erickson stands for civil debate?

So:

“goat fucking child molester" is civil debate?

What a fucking joke. What stupid, assholic joke.

325 Kragar  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:09:54pm

re: #323 sizzleRI

I find it hard to believe that Jefferson would have wanted his sexting with Sally Hemings to be so easily available. Now Franklin on the other hand, he was more of an extrovert.

Franklin was well known for providing the other Founding Fathers with reference materials which, when opened, consisted of the story of Rick of Rollings

326 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:15:43pm

re: #325 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Franklin liked rolling of every type. Hay, blunts, he was a freak-man.

There's one dude in the Castro in SF who is a total fucking dead ringer for him, too, bifocals and all.

327 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:17:24pm

re: #264 researchok

I would also submit that solitary confinement is a damn sight better here than anywhere else.

And I will submit that a person unsure if he would be able to weather the effects of solitary confinement should, perhaps, think long and hard about it before committing crimes which might result in him being placed in solitary confinement.

In the case of Manning, I do wonder, if the effects of solitary confinement are harsh enough to constitute "torture", how has his friend (who has reported on his condition) been able to visit him several times over the course of several months?

328 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:17:31pm

re: #325 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

That is extraordinarily funny.

That original?

329 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:19:31pm

re: #237 recusancy

"For 23 out of 24 hours every day—for seven straight months and counting—he sits completely alone in his cell. Even inside his cell, his activities are heavily restricted; he’s barred even from exercising and is under constant surveillance to enforce those restrictions. For reasons that appear completely punitive, he’s being denied many of the most basic attributes of civilized imprisonment, including even a pillow or sheets for his bed (he is not and never has been on suicide watch)."

If it's true it's torture. Yes. If it's true.

I disagree....tough shit for him

330 Kragar  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:19:36pm

re: #328 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That is extraordinarily funny.

That original?

Yeah.

331 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:23:06pm

re: #327 reine.de.tout

And I will submit that a person unsure if he would be able to weather the effects of solitary confinement should, perhaps, think long and hard about it before committing crimes which might result in him being placed in solitary confinement.

In the case of Manning, I do wonder, if the effects of solitary confinement are harsh enough to constitute "torture", how has his friend (who has reported on his condition) been able to visit him several times over the course of several months?

it's not the solitary imo, it's the lack of typical stimulation....all of his goodies are just a memory, and I'd bet my paycheck he already regrets his actions....too late

332 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:24:13pm

DADT passes in House.

333 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:25:06pm

re: #309 marjoriemoon


I happen to agree with LVQ on this subject. And the amount of observant Jews on this board is thinning which is a shame really. But I get a little bristle on my back when a non-Jew tries to tell me what observant Jews think about morality. I'm sorry if you're offended, but that's how it is.

Is it not possible for someone outside the Jewish faith to be education in Judaism, and therefore have no right to any view on it, or discussion about it?

Is that your contention?

334 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:25:26pm

Are we debating an American Traitor's treatment in jail?

335 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:25:53pm

SpeakerPelosi

Proud the House voted to close the door on a fundamental unfairness in our nation 250-175 - time for Senate to act! #DADT

336 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:26:07pm

re: #334 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Are we debating an American Traitor's treatment in jail?

We sure are. Well, they are.

337 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:26:39pm

re: #334 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Are we debating an American Traitor's treatment in jail?

not very lively...there is little argument about his treatment...it's fair and typical

338 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:27:53pm

re: #335 Stanley Sea

SpeakerPelosi

Proud the House voted to close the door on a fundamental unfairness in our nation 250-175 - time for Senate to act! #DADT

frankly I'm more concerned about the BP guy that was whacked in AZ, and the implications

339 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:29:02pm

re: #333 ozbloke

Is it not possible for someone outside the Jewish faith to be education in Judaism, and therefore have no right to any view on it, or discussion about it?

Is that your contention?

PIMF s/education/educated/g

340 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:29:37pm

Uh, wait. Glenn Greenwald now thinks solitary confinement is torture?

Socky McSockpuppet has always been, and remains, an ass.

341 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:29:56pm

re: #157 reine.de.tout

b.b.b.but - the friend who has apparently been able to visit him several times has noticed a change in his appearance and behavior!

Me, I would have been thinking about the consequences before I did anything I could be arrested for.

Fuck Manning...he bought his ticket and took his chances. In a different time and place, his ass would have been looking at the end of a rope.

342 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:30:57pm

TY for your attention to this, Gus and Charles. This pisses me off more than I can describe.

343 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:32:05pm

re: #340 Charles

Uh, wait. Glenn Greenwald now thinks solitary confinement is torture?

Socky McSockpuppet has always been, and remains, an ass.

In other news, water is wet! ;-P

344 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:32:06pm

re: #341 talon_262

In a different time and place, his ass would have been looking at the end of a rope.

They used to hang 'em upside down?

Sorry, I see funnies in funny places...

345 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:33:03pm

re: #339 ozbloke

upding for speaking in sed languages

346 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:33:21pm

re: #335 Stanley Sea

SpeakerPelosi

Proud the House voted to close the door on a fundamental unfairness in our nation 250-175 - time for Senate to act! #DADT

So much for the lame duckness. The Senate had better come through.

347 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:35:25pm

re: #345 engineer dog

upding for speaking in sed languages

I'm a command line junkie.

348 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:35:33pm

re: #346 Stanley Sea

you kidding? The senate is where legislation goes to die.

349 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:36:27pm

re: #331 albusteve

it's not the solitary imo, it's the lack of typical stimulation...all of his goodies are just a memory, and I'd bet my paycheck he already regrets his actions...too late

Steve - I just find it weird that he's got a friend who can apparently visit fairly often and is thus able to report back on his condition. Esp since it's being asserted that his imprisonment terms are torture.

I'd be willing to bet the conditions are not pleasant, not very pleasant at all. And ya know what? Manning didn't particularly worry about my security when he released all those docs; and I'm not particularly worried about him having all the comforts of home while in prison.

350 lostlakehiker  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:36:30pm

re: #333 ozbloke

Is it not possible for someone outside the Jewish faith to be education in Judaism, and therefore have no right to any view on it, or discussion about it?

Is that your contention?

It is possible. But how many people will devote the necessary time and immersion? It is possible, in the same sense that it is possible for a native German speaker to learn English and speak it fluently, without an accent, as an adult.

Damned few can bring it off, but a few can. Many more are the people who acquire a smattering of knowledge in some realm and promptly preen themselves on fluency.

I've read most of the Harry Kemmelman "Rabbi" series. It's wonderfully educational. I've read many of LVQ's posts. From all this learning of mine, I reckon I'm up to speed with the average Jewish pre-kindergartner in mastery of Judaic law and interpretation. I can get the really simple stuff right more often than not.

There is a lot to understand that cannot be got out of diligent memorization and reading. He who really seeks understanding can probably get there, if he has time and a good mind. A decade of immersion should suffice.

Absent such mastery, the best bet is to trust the mainstream top Jewish thinkers, past and present, on what Jewish law and faith say under suitable interpretation.

351 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:36:31pm

re: #348 Dreggas

you kidding? The senate is where legislation goes to die.

Does all legislation have to pass both houses?

352 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:36:38pm

Glenn Greenwald has flat out lied about me numerous times, attributing opinions to me that I have never held, such as advocating dropping nukes on Mecca. He's a slimy, dishonest creep with logorrhea.

353 Kragar  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:37:56pm

re: #351 ozbloke

Does all legislation have to pass both houses?

Thats kind of the point.

354 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:38:29pm

re: #351 ozbloke

Yes, it has to pass the senate as well then goes on to the president.

355 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:38:57pm

re: #352 Charles


Logorrhea

Cool word.

356 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:40:00pm

And yes, I would automatically assume that he's lying about almost anything he writes about, unless it's an easily checked fact. He's demonstrated many times that he has no scruples and no concept of ethics. He's the most dishonest blogger on the left, by FAR.

357 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:41:11pm

re: #350 lostlakehiker

re: #350 lostlakehiker

It is possible. But how many people will devote the necessary time and immersion? It is possible, in the same sense that it is possible for a native German speaker to learn English and speak it fluently, without an accent, as an adult.

Damned few can bring it off, but a few can. Many more are the people who acquire a smattering of knowledge in some realm and promptly preen themselves on fluency.

I've read most of the Harry Kemmelman "Rabbi" series. It's wonderfully educational. I've read many of LVQ's posts. From all this learning of mine, I reckon I'm up to speed with the average Jewish pre-kindergartner in mastery of Judaic law and interpretation. I can get the really simple stuff right more often than not.

There is a lot to understand that cannot be got out of diligent memorization and reading. He who really seeks understanding can probably get there, if he has time and a good mind. A decade of immersion should suffice.

Absent such mastery, the best bet is to trust the mainstream top Jewish thinkers, past and present, on what Jewish law and faith say under suitable interpretation.

Hi lostlakehiker,

Thank you for your response.
I agree, many subjects are deep and require years of study, but there are those who would choose to study.

Therefore I think this myth is busted.

358 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:42:05pm
359 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:42:53pm

Just so nobody gets the wrong idea, I think what he did was damned close to treason (if not all the way there), but Manning should absolutely be treated fairly and humanely, and I would never support any kind of "torture."

And Glenn Greenwald is an ass.

360 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:44:06pm

re: #348 Dreggas

you kidding? The senate is where legislation goes to die.

I have faith this time.

361 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:44:25pm

re: #333 ozbloke

Is it not possible for someone outside the Jewish faith to be education in Judaism, and therefore have no right to any view on it, or discussion about it?

Is that your contention?

Note that we don't really discuss Judaism, we only discuss the text that predates rabbinic Judaism by centuries, and we discuss it in the Christian framework, since the discussion was started with the mention of what Jesus said or didn't say.

362 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:44:52pm

re: #353 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Thats kind of the point.


Yes, I knew that, I was responding to this.

re: #348 Dreggas
you kidding? The senate is where legislation goes to die


I have to practice my sarcasm.

363 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:45:18pm

re: #356 Charles

He's the most dishonest blogger on the left, by FAR.

I looked him up again recently. He's not a lefty, he's one of those wrap around moronic convergence types.

364 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:45:30pm

re: #354 Dreggas

Yes, it has to pass the senate as well then goes on to the president.

Thanks please see #362

365 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:46:11pm

re: #363 Killgore Trout

I looked him up again recently. He's not a lefty, he's one of those wrap around moronic convergence types.

even worse then....ideologically unstable

366 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:46:48pm

re: #359 Charles

Anybody who says solitary confinement amounts to torture, when applied to an alleged spy, is full of shit. OF COURSE a spy is going to get solitary.

And of course he deserves a trial by jury. I'm sure he'll get it. These kinds of cases take time to assemble.

367 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:48:21pm

Looks like the Manning/torture meme is taking flight. Here's an article at NPR with this gem:

Greenwald's critical analysis of Manning's treatment, of course, stands in stark contrast to the point of view voiced by popular commentator Bill O'Reilly and by Rep. Mike Rogers (R-MI) that providing the documents to WikiLeaks was a traitorous act that should be punished by execution.

Notice the phrase "critical analysis" and how it "stands in stark contrast" to Bill O'Reilly and a Republican. Seems like they're speaking to an audience here.

368 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:48:53pm

re: #366 Fozzie Bear

Anybody who says solitary confinement amounts to torture, when applied to an alleged spy, is full of shit. OF COURSE a spy is going to get solitary.

And of course he deserves a trial by jury. I'm sure he'll get it. These kinds of cases take time to assemble.

I'm not sure if he is going to serve time in a military or civilian prison but he's probably going to serve his entire life in solitary.

369 Kragar  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:50:16pm

Treason is not technically a charge under the UCMJ, but Manning could fall under the following

CONSPIRACY
FAILURE TO OBEY ORDER OR REGULATION
AIDING THE ENEMY
ESPIONAGE
GENERAL ARTICLE

370 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:50:46pm

Groan. Should have known. Now bot ends of the candle are jumping on this. From Fox Nation:

Salon: Team Obama Torturing WikiLeaker Bradley Manning

371 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:50:48pm

re: #359 Charles

I agree. It is not a choice between throwing out the rule of law and procedure for a fair judicial determination or believing everything in Greenwald's fantasy column.

372 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:51:06pm

re: #369 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

All of the above?

373 lostlakehiker  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:51:10pm

re: #189 ozbloke

Sorry wrenchwench if I was not clear.

I have been told charges have been laid against Manning, but I wasn't only talking about Manning or people within the US military.

It seems to me since the beginning of the war on terror the USA has adopted a policy of holding some people and not getting them a speedy trial.

I was asking whether it began with the war on terror.

War is different from crime. In war, you take prisoners, and you hold them, not because it is illegal for them to wage war on you, but because if you let them go they'll go wage more war on you.

Duh.

You hold them until the war is over, so that letting them go doesn't mean they'll go back to fighting you.

Some of our prisoners are basically POW's. We took them in combat, under circumstances where they were bearing arms against us openly, as part of an insurgency.

Others are hard to categorize. If they were pretending to be civilians, and were in the embattled country [Iraq, Afghanistan] then they themselves have broken the law of war. We would be within our rights to put them before a firing squad after a military trial to check that we have our facts straight.

If they were pretending to be civilians, and not in the battle zone, e.g. placing a bomb in Times Square, then the question arises, are they illegal combatants, fighting as soldiers in a cause but fighting by means that are forbidden to warriors, or are they just plain criminals and not part of the war at all?

In the first case, again we would be within our rights to put them before a firing squad after a military trial to check the facts. In the second case---maybe they're insane? Maybe only in their own mind they're working for al Qaeda?

We are loath to execute all these guys, even if going strictly by the book they have it coming. So we just hold them, extending to them the courtesy and the gift of no firing squad.

It is a generous and merciful treatment and they have little grounds for complaint. So many of the ones we did release have indeed gone back to fighting us, after all. And those were the ones judged least likely to take up arms again.

374 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:51:56pm

re: #370 Gus 802

Groan. Should have known. Now bot ends of the candle are jumping on this. From Fox Nation:

Salon: Team Obama Torturing WikiLeaker Bradley Manning

Oh. My. Flying. Invisible. Pink. Spaghetti. Unicorn.

375 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:51:59pm

re: #370 Gus 802

Groan. Should have known. Now bot ends of the candle are jumping on this. From Fox Nation:

Salon: Team Obama Torturing WikiLeaker Bradley Manning

Which of course was phrased by Weasel Zippers. Figures.

376 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:52:22pm

re: #367 Gus 802

Looks like the Manning/torture meme is taking flight. Here's an article at NPR with this gem:

Notice the phrase "critical analysis" and how it "stands in stark contrast" to Bill O'Reilly and a Republican. Seems like they're speaking to an audience here.

trying to make pizza pie outa horse shit...and with the net, you can do it....scream it louder and more often, like herding cows for supper

377 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:52:27pm

re: #366 Fozzie Bear

Actually he will get a Court Martial as outlined under the UCMJ. Jury Trials are for Civilians.

378 Kragar  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:52:29pm

re: #372 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

All of the above?

Probably. They could also probably throw in a few more charges depending on the materials he used and statement he made.

379 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:53:08pm

I wonder what Charles thinks of Glenn Greenwald?

/// ///

380 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:53:48pm

One would think that Fox of all stations would turn a blind eye to treatment of the likes of Manning. But I distinctly remember Rush saying something sympathetic about those Somali pirate 'kids'. So my surprise was premature.

381 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:53:58pm

re: #368 Killgore Trout

I'm not sure if he is going to serve time in a military or civilian prison but he's probably going to serve his entire life in solitary.

Maybe he can say hi to Aldrich Ames while he's at it.

Two birds of a feather they are: Ames sold out his country for money, Manning sold out for ideology.

382 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:54:22pm

Report: Mike Vick wants to get a dog

About 18 months after his release from federal prison on a dogfighting conviction, Philadelphia Eagles quarterback Michael Vick said Wednesday that he wants to own a dog again someday, according to an interview on TheGrio.com.

"I would love to get another dog in the future. I think it would be a big step for me in the rehabilitation process," Vick said.

The federal judge who sentenced him to 23 months in federal prison also banned Vick from ever owning another dog.

"I think just to have a pet in my household and to show people that I genuinely care, and my love and my passion for animals; I think it would be outstanding. If I ever have the opportunity again I will never take it for granted. I miss having a dog right now. I wish I could. My daughters miss having one, and that’s the hardest thing; telling them that we can’t have one because of my actions."

383 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:54:23pm

re: #374 Sergey Romanov

Oh. My. Flying. Invisible. Pink. Spaghetti. Unicorn.

Press TV

//

384 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:54:50pm

re: #375 Gus 802

Which of course was phrased by Weasel Zippers. Figures.

He stole that name from my rotating titles, by the way. My brother contributed that phrase more than 9 years ago.

385 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:55:04pm

re: #369 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Treason is not technically a charge under the UCMJ, but Manning could fall under the following

CONSPIRACY
FAILURE TO OBEY ORDER OR REGULATION
AIDING THE ENEMY
ESPIONAGE
GENERAL ARTICLE

In short, given that Manning's admitted what he did, he's boned...and rightly so.

386 Kragar  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:55:07pm

re: #377 Bubblehead II

Actually he will get a Court Martial as outlined under the UCMJ. Jury Trials are for Civilians.

It will be a General Court Martial based on the evidence.

387 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:55:21pm

re: #379 wrenchwench

I wonder what Charles thinks of Glenn Greenwald?

/// ///

Fine fellow. Writes a lot of words.

388 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:55:37pm

re: #379 wrenchwench

You're a monster, Mister Glenn,
Your heart's an empty hole.
Your brain is full of spiders, you've got garlic in your soul, Mister Glenn,

I wouldn't touch you with a thirty-nine-and-a-half foot pole!

389 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:56:06pm

re: #380 Sergey Romanov

One would think that Fox of all stations would turn a blind eye to treatment of the likes of Manning. But I distinctly remember Rush saying something sympathetic about those Somali pirate 'kids'. So my surprise was premature.

That was sarcasm on Limbaugh's part. He was trying to make Obama look bad for giving the OK to shoot "kids".

390 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:57:23pm

re: #373 lostlakehiker

War is different from crime. In war, you take prisoners, and you hold them, not because it is illegal for them to wage war on you, but because if you let them go they'll go wage more war on you.

Duh.

You hold them until the war is over, so that letting them go doesn't mean they'll go back to fighting you.

Some of our prisoners are basically POW's. We took them in combat, under circumstances where they were bearing arms against us openly, as part of an insurgency.

Others are hard to categorize. If they were pretending to be civilians, and were in the embattled country [Iraq, Afghanistan] then they themselves have broken the law of war. We would be within our rights to put them before a firing squad after a military trial to check that we have our facts straight.

If they were pretending to be civilians, and not in the battle zone, e.g. placing a bomb in Times Square, then the question arises, are they illegal combatants, fighting as soldiers in a cause but fighting by means that are forbidden to warriors, or are they just plain criminals and not part of the war at all?

In the first case, again we would be within our rights to put them before a firing squad after a military trial to check the facts. In the second case---maybe they're insane? Maybe only in their own mind they're working for al Qaeda?

We are loath to execute all these guys, even if going strictly by the book they have it coming. So we just hold them, extending to them the courtesy and the gift of no firing squad.

It is a generous and merciful treatment and they have little grounds for complaint. So many of the ones we did release have indeed gone back to fighting us, after all. And those were the ones judged least likely to take up arms again.

Thanks lostlakehiker, excellent description.

Its so much different when its not a country you are fighting, and the enemy does not necessarily wear a uniform.

391 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:57:26pm

re: #384 Charles

He stole that name from my rotating titles, by the way. My brother contributed that phrase more than 9 years ago.

You didn't hatch from an egg? /

392 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:57:55pm

First comment on Manning at "Weasel Zippers":

I have an idea. Lets shot the traitor instead. Bastard.

His post is basically saying, yeah, let's torture him.

393 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:58:08pm

re: #389 wrenchwench

That was sarcasm on Limbaugh's part. He was trying to make Obama look bad for giving the OK to shoot "kids".

the single most gutsy, right thing BO has done or sanctioned....Somalis grow up fast and sometimes you need to kill people

394 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 2:58:59pm

re: #392 Charles

First comment on Manning at "Weasel Zippers":

His post is basically saying, yeah, let's torture him.

Ugh. Some people can't just be happy with due process. How sad.

395 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:00:31pm

re: #388 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You're a monster, Mister Glenn,
Your heart's an empty hole.
Your brain is full of spiders, you've got garlic in your soul, Mister Glenn,

I wouldn't touch you with a thirty-nine-and-a-half foot pole!

The Grinch has more integrity than Glenn Beck (or most wingnuts)...

396 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:02:41pm

re: #395 talon_262

The other Glenn...

397 lostlakehiker  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:02:46pm

Going somewhat off topic, here's a commentary on the beauty of leaking everything...or not: Anonymous?

398 elizajane  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:02:55pm

re: #392 Charles

First comment on Manning at "Weasel Zippers":

His post is basically saying, yeah, let's torture him.

This is one of the problems with a culture that starts to accept torture. It quickly moves from "We torture in exceptional cases to get urgently needed information" to "we can torture anybody we have in custody who might possibly be a a terrorist" to "lets just torture some sap who has already confessed because we feel like he deserves it."

399 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:03:10pm

And while I am waiting for my teacher to respond as to why I can't get into the online final, I would also like to say (somewhat OT) that my formerly Republican father is mad at Obama because....of the deal that extended the tax cut for the rich. I think in the past 3 months my family has overall moved from being Center-Right to being entrenched on the left.

400 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:03:52pm

re: #396 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The other Glenn...

It actually goes for both Glenns, if you ask me...

401 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:04:56pm

re: #400 talon_262

Mmmkay then. We're in agreeance.

402 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:05:27pm

re: #398 elizajane

I feel like most of these kinds of things are really pretty simple. Feelings don't have to get involved.

1. Identify if a crime has been committed by looking at laws currently on the books.
2. Charge alleged criminal with that crime.
3. If no law can be identified which was violated, then let the guy go, and pressure the legislature to make a law for the next time, if you feel it's necessary.

Rule of law. Rule of Law. Rule of law.

It's not that hard.

403 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:05:31pm

re: #386 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Probably. He is definitely going to be spending a long time behind bars.

404 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:08:01pm

re: #402 Fozzie Bear

2.5 The right to a speedy trial.

Sorry to interfere with your numbering.

405 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:08:26pm

re: #404 ozbloke

2.5 The right to a speedy trial.

Sorry to interfere with your numbering.

That too.

406 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:11:49pm

re: #377 Bubblehead II

Actually he will get a Court Martial as outlined under the UCMJ. Jury Trials are for Civilians.

Good point. My larger point is, there are rules for how to deal with these kinds of things, and we are playing with fire if we dispense with them.

407 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:12:07pm

re: #398 elizajane

This is one of the problems with a culture that starts to accept torture. It quickly moves from "We torture in exceptional cases to get urgently needed information" to "we can torture anybody we have in custody who might possibly be a a terrorist" to "lets just torture some sap who has already confessed because we feel like he deserves it."

I wouldn't assume too much from comments at Weasel Zippers, though. Those are the real dregs of the wingnutosphere, crazy even for the right. And I don't think it's the result of gradually accepting torture -- they were always like this.

408 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:12:21pm

something pretty cool for a change...a new twist in philanthropy

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

409 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:13:35pm

re: #404 ozbloke

Ahh, but define speedy. Trials in the U.S. often occur years after the crime was committed.

410 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:14:07pm

re: #409 sizzleRI

Ahh, but define speedy. Trials in the U.S. often occur years after the crime was committed.

That's one of the amazing things about history: the speed with which trials took place.

411 Alexzander  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:14:23pm

re: #37 Charles

Charles;
thanks for pointing out that connection to Israel Shamir - very troubling and I hadn't seen this connection anywhere else. I wish we could get an official explanation from Assange and/or Wikileaks.

412 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:14:37pm

It may seem often that these cables seek to have the US.

Here's the sort of thing we are having released in the Australian press:

Leaked cables throw spotlight on asylum policies

US diplomatic cables released by whistleblower website WikiLeaks to the Fairfax press show the American embassy in Canberra quoted Labor insiders as describing asylum seeker issues as "politically dangerous".

The cables reveal Labor feared being seen as soft over the issue.

Meanwhile, an unnamed key Liberal Party strategist told US diplomats last year the asylum seeker issue was "fantastic" for the Coalition and the more boats that came, the better.

The documents say US diplomats regarded the number of asylum seekers arriving in Australia as a very small on a global scale - but that former prime minister Kevin Rudd was not making this point publicly.

Labor = left
Liberal = right

I'm not sorry that this was released.

413 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:16:06pm

On the one hand you have people that think Manning should be freed or set up at the local Hilton or perhaps a mansion like Assange will stay in. On the other you have those that want to shoot Manning at dawn or perhaps torture him. Both of these are pure fantasies of course. Things are usually in the middle which is exactly where Manning is now.

414 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:17:27pm

re: #406 Fozzie Bear

Good point. My larger point is, there are rules for how to deal with these kinds of things, and we are playing with fire if we dispense with them.

And you are 100% correct.

415 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:18:11pm

re: #410 EmmmieG

That's one of the amazing things about history: the speed with which trials took place.

two words...
billable hours

416 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:18:16pm

re: #411 Alexzander

This is a case in which I happen to know quite a lot about Israel Shamir, unfortunately. I've been following his career of overt hatred and antisemitism since 2002 -- not constantly, but he's been the subject of quite a few LGF posts. It's not exaggerating to say that he's one of the most hateful, deranged people I've come across in all those years.

It's more than disturbing to me that someone like this works in an official capacity for Wikileaks. It's an indictment.

417 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:18:25pm

Evening All...

418 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:19:01pm

If I were the prison warden watching over Manning I'd simply subject him to REO Speedwagon 24 hours a day for 2 weeks.

//

419 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:19:28pm

re: #416 Charles

I hope openleaks cuts these kinds of ties and starts "fresh". We'll see, I guess.

420 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:19:38pm

re: #409 sizzleRI

Ahh, but define speedy. Trials in the U.S. often occur years after the crime was committed.

I would think it should be a defined, as in a time period.
You should not be charged without evidence, if you have evidence bring it.

It may be that differing crimes may have different time frames.
It may also be that a judge can extend the time based on 'something'.

What say you SizzleRI
Sorry, I felt the need to capitalize your s for sizzle.

421 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:19:53pm

re: #418 Gus 802

Muskrat Love. The most heinous torture device ever invented by man.

422 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:20:17pm

re: #418 Gus 802

If I were the prison warden watching over Manning I'd simply subject him to REO Speedwagon 24 hours a day for 2 weeks.

//

Oh no...I would subject him to "Feelings", "You Light up My Life" and "We Built This City" on a continuous loop.

But I'm a vicious bastard.

423 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:20:21pm

re: #416 Charles

This is a case in which I happen to know quite a lot about Israel Shamir, unfortunately. I've been following his career of overt hatred and antisemitism since 2002 -- not constantly, but he's been the subject of quite a few LGF posts. It's not exaggerating to say that he's one of the most hateful, deranged people I've come across in all those years.

It's more than disturbing to me that someone like this works in an official capacity for Wikileaks. It's an indictment.

I too have been keeping an eye on him for years. And I totally agree with the above summation. To add to the epithets, I also think he is a sociopath.

424 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:20:56pm

re: #399 ProLifeLiberal

It turns out that the special accommadations for the Autism has caused whatever University program they are using to have an epic error. This is fun

/

425 jaunte  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:21:00pm

re: #418 Gus 802

If I were the prison warden watching over Manning I'd simply subject him to REO Speedwagon 24 hours a day for 2 weeks.

//


"Heard it from a friend who
Heard it from a friend who
Heard it from a leaker you been messin' around"

426 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:21:10pm

re: #421 Charles

Muskrat Love. The most heinous torture device ever invented by man.

Doesn't hold a candle to "I've Never Been To Me" or "MacArthur Park" (the Richard Harris version)

427 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:21:58pm

re: #421 Charles

Muskrat Love. The most heinous torture device ever invented by man.

428 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:22:48pm

torture....
Barry Manilow

429 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:22:51pm

re: #422 PT Barnum

Oh no...I would subject him to "Feelings", "You Light up My Life" and "We Built This City" on a continuous loop.

But I'm a vicious bastard.

Savage bastard.

430 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:23:01pm

re: #425 jaunte

"Heard it from a friend who
Heard it from a friend who
Heard it from a leaker you been messin' around"

"And I can't fight the leaking anymore..."

431 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:24:30pm

re: #420 ozbloke

I would think it should be a defined, as in a time period.
You should not be charged without evidence, if you have evidence bring it.

It may be that differing crimes may have different time frames.
It may also be that a judge can extend the time based on 'something'.

What say you SizzleRI
Sorry, I felt the need to capitalize your s for sizzle.

I believe most states do have prescribed time limits within which a trial must begin. I think there are also provisions for either side to request extensions of that time, for good reason. Not always, but often enough, a trial begin date is extended because the defense wants extra time to prepare.

432 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:25:52pm

Your Torture Hit Parade

courtesy of Mental Floss

433 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:25:55pm

re: #431 reine.de.tout

I believe most states do have prescribed time limits within which a trial must begin. I think there are also provisions for either side to request extensions of that time, for good reason. Not always, but often enough, a trial begin date is extended because the defense wants extra time to prepare.

Thanks Reine, you are the second person to mention the defense requiring extensions.

434 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:26:04pm

re: #428 albusteve

torture...
Barry Manilow

435 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:27:13pm

re: #428 albusteve

torture...
Barry Manilow

I dated a girl who was a SERIOUS Barry Manilow fan. Oddly enough, the stuff you never hear on the radio or Muzak is reasonably tolerable.

436 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:27:45pm

re: #427 Gus 802

I managed to avoid that until just now. Priceless. Was he playing the muskrat part on his keyboard, or was that something he was doing with his seat?

437 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:27:54pm

re: #433 ozbloke

Thanks Reine, you are the second person to mention the defense requiring extensions.

Well . . . it's simply how it is.

438 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:28:12pm

Billy Ray Cyrus - Achy Breaky Heart

Runs around screaming and pulling hair out.

439 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:28:26pm

re: #436 wrenchwench

I managed to avoid that until just now. Priceless. Was he playing the muskrat part on his keyboard, or was that something he was doing with his seat?

I didn't make it that far. Apparently "America" also sang that song.

440 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:29:19pm

re: #428 albusteve

torture...
Barry Manilow

These Boots Were Made For Walking

awful song, PLUS Nancy Sinatra cannot sing.

441 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:29:36pm

re: #438 ozbloke

Billy Ray Cyrus - Achy Breaky Heart


[Video]

Runs around screaming and pulling hair out.

Here's the only tolerable "version" of that song...

"Or you can tie me to a chair
And kick me down the stairs...
Just please don't play that stupid song no more!

442 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:29:55pm

re: #439 Gus 802

I didn't make it that far. Apparently "America" also sang that song.

Now that would be a case where "America is torturing that guy!!1!"

443 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:29:56pm

re: #432 PT Barnum

Barney should have been #1

444 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:30:27pm

re: #439 Gus 802

I didn't make it that far. Apparently "America" also sang that song.

Actually they were the first to cover it.

The HORROR!

445 wee fury  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:30:37pm

re: #428 albusteve

torture...
Barry Manilow

Funny. My 15 year old male relative thinks Barry is the greatest.

446 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:31:01pm

re: #434 Gus 802

[Video]

I bit..."dumbass fans"
heh
on a better note, Joe Bonamassa is coming the the historic Kimo Theater in Feb...sweet
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

447 garhighway  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:31:08pm

re: #428 albusteve

torture...
Barry Manilow

In "Take the Money and Run", Woody Allen had a scene where a misbehaving prisoner had to spend a night "in the hole". The experience was clearly feared by all concerned. It was then shown that the reason the experience was so horrible was that they locked the prisoner in the hole overnight with an insurance salesman.

You see the prisoner go in, then the guy in a nice suit and tie with a briefcase, and you hear, as they lock the door, the words "I think what you need is a mixture of whole and term life..." followed by horrendous screaming.

Priceless.

448 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:31:18pm

re: #433 ozbloke

Thanks Reine, you are the second person to mention the defense requiring extensions.

re: #437 reine.de.tout

Well . . . it's simply how it is.

And next time, I shall be sure to point out only the information that confirms for you how awful and backwards things are. . .

449 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:31:24pm

re: #445 wee fury

Funny. My 15 year old male relative thinks Barry is the greatest.

He's probably just a budding hipster and likes Manilow ironically.

450 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:31:35pm

re: #435 PT Barnum

I dated a girl who was a SERIOUS Barry Manilow fan. Oddly enough, the stuff you never hear on the radio or Muzak is reasonably tolerable.

no it isn't....I'm unreasonable like that

451 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:31:42pm

re: #440 reine.de.tout

These Boots Were Made For Walking

[Video]awful song, PLUS Nancy Sinatra cannot sing.

Stayin Alive, The Bee Gees. Nuff Said!

452 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:31:56pm

Manning is defined as a "Maximum Custody Detainee," I see. Which, given the seriousness of the charges, is the only classification he would get.

He's in a US Marine brig. He admitted to deliberately, knowingly, with malice, leaking a huge number of classified documents. Among the crimes you can commit in the military, it's hard to think of many more serious that don't involve violence.

What did he think was going to happen to him? A brief stint in country club prison, then on to the book deals and the parties? Good grief.

He may go to jail for the rest of his life. The military doesn't fuck around. You get in trouble there, and you're in real trouble. And he's in about the worst trouble imaginable.

453 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:32:26pm

re: #416 Charles

This is a case in which I happen to know quite a lot about Israel Shamir, unfortunately. I've been following his career of overt hatred and antisemitism since 2002 -- not constantly, but he's been the subject of quite a few LGF posts. It's not exaggerating to say that he's one of the most hateful, deranged people I've come across in all those years.

It's more than disturbing to me that someone like this works in an official capacity for Wikileaks. It's an indictment.

I'll trust that Shamir is the devil himself. Do we have more than a Libertarian magazine and self-referencing blog traffic to show he is actually part of Wikileaks? Is there a wiring diagram or statementy from WL?

454 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:32:26pm

re: #451 rwdflynavy

Stayin Alive, The Bee Gees. Nuff Said!


[Video]

Hey I like that song!

455 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:32:46pm

re: #451 rwdflynavy

Stayin Alive, The Bee Gees. Nuff Said!


[Video]

Barry Gibb...the only reason his pants were that tight was so he could sing like that.

456 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:32:47pm

re: #442 wrenchwench

Now that would be a case where "America is torturing that guy!!1!"

America tortures Americans!!11ty

457 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:34:13pm

re: #441 jamesfirecat

Here's the only tolerable "version" of that song...

"Or you can tie me to a chair
And kick me down the stairs...
Just please don't play that stupid song no more!

Whoops somehow forgot the link that was stupid....

Clearly no more LGF after getting home form work but before eating dinner....

458 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:34:21pm

re: #451 rwdflynavy

Stayin Alive, The Bee Gees. Nuff Said!


[Video]

I had forgotten how truly bad 80's music videos were until I watched that...

459 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:34:31pm

re: #453 Decatur Deb

I'll trust that Shamir is the devil himself. Do we have more than a Libertarian magazine and self-referencing blog traffic to show he is actually part of Wikileaks? Is there a wiring diagram or statementy from WL?

Quite a few Russian sources confirmed that Shamir was working for Wikileaks as their Russian "content aggregator." Follow the links in the Reason article; it appears pretty well-sourced or I wouldn't have covered it here. Because I'm not generally much of a fan of Reason.

460 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:34:33pm

re: #445 wee fury

Funny. My 15 year old male relative thinks Barry is the greatest.

sorry to hear that....my kids grew up with the Stones, Little Feat, John Hiatt and alot of blues....one thing I did right

461 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:35:23pm
462 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:36:33pm

re: #461 Gus 802

This will likely be Bradley Manning's retirement home.

making gravel, or mining salt

463 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:39:34pm

re: #420 ozbloke

I agree. Defendants also delay trials. Defense attorneys need time to prepare, especially in complicated prosecutions. Also if a defendant is out on bail it may not be in his best interest to push for a trial date.

464 wee fury  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:39:37pm

re: #457 jamesfirecat

LOL. Weird Al . . . priceless.

465 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:40:06pm

re: #448 reine.de.tout

re: #437 reine.de.tout

And next time, I shall be sure to point out only the information that confirms for you how awful and backwards things are. . .

Sorry, did I offend you?
My reply thanked you?

466 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:40:50pm

re: #431 reine.de.tout

As usual, someone says it 40 comments before me. And in a better way. Nice job reine!

467 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:41:40pm

re: #461 Gus 802

This will likely be Bradley Manning's retirement home.

Hard time.

468 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:42:14pm

re: #461 Gus 802

This will likely be Bradley Manning's retirement home.

And, they have a cemetery onsite.

469 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:43:25pm

re: #461 Gus 802

This will likely be Bradley Manning's retirement home.

But notice that they recently improved the prisoners' accommodations:

A new state-of-the-art, 515-bed, USDB became operational in September 2002, replacing the old stone wall and brick castle.

The new barracks opened at a cost of $67.8 million and is about a mile north of the original barracks. It is on 51 acres (210,000 m2) on the site of the former USDB Farm Colony and is enclosed by two separate 14-foot (4.3 m) high fences. There are three housing units each of which can accommodate up to 142. The units described as "pods" are two-tiered triangular shaped domiciles.[7] The cells in the new facility have solid doors and a window. There are no bars. The new facility is said to be much quieter than the old one and is preferred by inmates.[8] Colonel Colleen McGuire, the first female commandant of the USDB, said in 2002 that the new facility is "much more efficient in design and layout -- much brighter and lighter."

470 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:43:31pm

re: #468 researchok

And, they have a cemetery onsite.

Do they? They closed the old facility and the new one opened in 2002.

471 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:44:28pm

re: #470 Gus 802

Do they? They closed the old facility and the new one opened in 2002.

Cemetery

Main article: Fort Leavenworth Military Prison Cemetery
Deceased prisoners who are not claimed by their family members are buried near the original USDB. There were 300 graves dating from between approximately 1894 and 1957, 56 of which are unmarked and 14 more that belong to German prisoners of war executed for the murder of fellow POWs. The German soldiers were executed over a two day period in 1945.[12]

472 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:44:49pm

re: #469 Charles

But notice that they recently improved the prisoners' accommodations:

It's probably "nicer" than a supermax.

473 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:45:00pm

re: #462 albusteve

making gravel, or mining salt

Or operating an online e-commerce keyboard for a prison contractor.

474 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:46:13pm

re: #448 reine.de.tout

re: #437 reine.de.tout

And next time, I shall be sure to point out only the information that confirms for you how awful and backwards things are. . .

I have updinged your #431 to be clear.

Still talkin to me?

475 SpaceJesus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:46:33pm

Has SPLC named the GOP an official hate group? If not, they really should consider it.

476 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:47:00pm

re: #465 ozbloke

To be clear, I am very pro-defendants rights. I don't think there is a problem with allowing the defense to delay for preparation purposes or for the best interest of the client. If the defense wants a speedier trial than the state should provide one. Our system is designed so that the onus is on the state to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt and to respect the rights of defendants. The state has all the power in the situation, and the Constitution is there to offset the imbalance.

477 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:47:45pm

re: #475 SpaceJesus

Hey SJ, what year of school are you in?

478 Alexzander  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:48:04pm

re: #416 Charles

I agree - I dont think Assange is the type to by hiring people who he hasn't throughly vetted to his own tastes, so its hard to imagine Wikileaks/Assange pleading ignorance. I've never heard of this Isreal Shamir character, and I guess I'm pretty ignorant about many of the anti-Semetic individuals out there at the moment, but thats partly why I'm coming to LGF so regularly. When I'm over in Canada tonight on a stable internet connection I'm going to look him up more throughly, or to the extent my stomach will allow (I think reading about Holocaust denial gives me immediate indigestion.)

479 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:48:09pm

Ha! Check out the wording on the Fort Leavenworth patch...

Image: 999x.jpg

480 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:48:57pm

re: #479 Gus 802

Ha! Check out the wording on the Fort Leavenworth patch...

Image: 999x.jpg

Do not enter? /

481 wee fury  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:49:21pm
482 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:49:29pm

re: #479 Gus 802

Ha! Check out the wording on the Fort Leavenworth patch...

Image: 999x.jpg


That's really funny.

483 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:50:31pm

this is creeping me out....incarceration that is

484 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:52:12pm

re: #476 sizzleRI

To be clear, I am very pro-defendants rights. I don't think there is a problem with allowing the defense to delay for preparation purposes or for the best interest of the client. If the defense wants a speedier trial than the state should provide one. Our system is designed so that the onus is on the state to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt and to respect the rights of defendants. The state has all the power in the situation, and the Constitution is there to offset the imbalance.

Thank you sizzleRI,

I have been helped and educated by this thread, and I thank you, marjorie, decatur deb and lostlakehiker.

Sorry if I missed anyone.

Oh and lostlakehiker, I hope I can help you.

Are you a lakehiker who is lost or a hiker who is lost at a lake?
Inquiring minds want to know.

485 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:53:37pm

re: #479 Gus 802

Well prison is supposed to be a place of not only punishment, but rehabilitation. So it does make sense.

486 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:53:49pm

re: #475 SpaceJesus

Has SPLC named the GOP an official hate group? If not, they really should consider it.

Tempting, but it's better tactically to give the GOP an "exit" by only calling out the more extreme elements. They aren't all there yet. Here's hoping they don't double down on the crazy over the next few years.

I have a slim hope that the few remaining sane elements of the party throw a fit and shame the party into disavowing the nutters.

487 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:55:24pm

re: #438 ozbloke

Billy Ray Cyrus - Achy Breaky Heart


[Video]Runs around screaming and pulling hair out.

I knew some diabolical sadist would post that.
Incidentally, before I knew what a mullet was actually called, I referred to it as "one of those stupid televangelist haircuts."

488 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:55:25pm

"Bradley was a bad, irresponsible lad"
500 million times....then cut him loose

489 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:55:49pm

re: #485 Bubblehead II

Well prison is supposed to be a place of not only punishment, but rehabilitation. So it does make sense.

[Link: usacac.army.mil...]

490 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:55:55pm

Charles, not that I think anybody will seriously debate that Shamir works for WL, I think this may also be helpful:

[Link: vz.ru...]

It's Shamir's interview about Assange to a conservative Russian online newspaper. Shamir also reposted it in his LJ:

[Link: israel-shamir.livejournal.com...]

VZ characterizes Shamir as a "permanent representative of the journal "Russkij reportyor" at WikiLeaks, writer and publicist Israel Shamir."

491 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:56:26pm

re: #489 Gus 802

[Link: usacac.army.mil...]

That would be the United States Disciplinary Barracks store.

492 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:56:36pm

re: #487 Shiplord Kirel

I knew some diabolical sadist would post that.
Incidentally, before I knew what a mullet was actually called, I referred to it as "one of those stupid televangelist haircuts."

Yes-No
Shlong (short-long)
Ape Drape
Neck Warmer
Long Island Iced Tease
Kentucky Waterfall
Mud Flap
Hack Job
The Boz (for Brian Bosworth)
River Cut
Neck Blanket
The Ueltschi
Guido
10/90
Beaver Paddle
STLB (short top long back)
Camaro Cut
Sphinx
The Tutty
Doggy Door

493 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:56:42pm

re: #488 albusteve

"Bradley was a bad, irresponsible lad"
500 million times...then cut him loose

Maybe a letter of apology to the people whose lives he risked, first?

494 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:57:09pm

re: #486 Fozzie Bear

"I have a slim hope that the few remaining sane elements of the party throw a fit and shame the party into disavowing the nutters."

// I happen to own a bridge in brooklyn that I would be willing to sell. Interested?

495 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:58:05pm

re: #491 Gus 802

That would be the United States Disciplinary Barracks store.

crash....did you do that on purpose?

496 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:58:39pm

United States Disciplinary Barracks

The United States Disciplinary Barracks (USDB) at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas is the only maximum security correctional facility in the Department of Defense. It is the oldest penal institution in continuous operation in the Federal system. Operations started in May 1875 at the United States Military Prison (later renamed USDB) and continues to this date.

A new state-of-the-art, 515-bed, USDB became operational in September 2002 replacing the old stone wall and brick castle. The USDB staff includes both civilian and service members of the Military Police Corps, Adjutant General Corps, Medical Corps, Medical Service Corps, Corps of Engineers, Chaplain Corps, Judge Advocate General Corps, the United States Marine Corps, the United States Air Force, and the United States Navy, working to achieve a progressive correctional community.

The USDB mission is to incarcerate U.S. military prisoners sentenced to long terms of confinement. Conduct correctional and treatment programs to maintain good order and discipline and reduce recidivism upon release; and, on order, provide trained and ready Soldiers to conduct world-wide deployments in support of contingency operations.

The USDB motto, "Our Mission, Your Future", symbolizes the "Can Do" attitude; the spirit of teamwork; and the philosophy of the USDB. The entire custodial staff provides individual treatment to inmates to prepare them for a self-reliant, trustworthy and respectable future. The USDB reflects on the past only to build for the future, emphasizing behavior, education, vocational skills and a chance to choose. The staff balances their critical duty to incarcerate, ensure good order and discipline, and to maintain a safe environment, with providing an opportunity for rehabilitation, hope, and a new start.

Correctional and treatment programs consist of individual and group counseling for self-growth and crime specific, education classes, and vocational training. Vocational training certificates are offered in barbering, carpentry, embroidery, engraving, graphic arts, laundry/dry cleaning, printing, sheet metal, and welding.

The USDB has continuously been accredited from the American Correctional Association (ACA) since 1988. The accreditation is a tool to measure compliance with nationally recognized standards for an adult correctional institution. The accreditation is valid for a three year period. To receive accreditation the USDB must meet or exceed more than 500 standards covering administration and management, training, physical plant, institutional operations, institutional services, and inmate programs.

497 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:58:43pm

re: #494 Bubblehead II

Sadly, it's not a bridge I would buy either, but then I still know a handful of people personally who swear up and down that they are republicans, and the party doesn't represent them. And they aren't nuts. They keep telling me to give it some time, it'll fizzle out.

I'm not holding my breath, but stranger things have happened.

498 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:59:23pm

re: #493 EmmmieG

Maybe a letter of apology to the people whose lives he risked, first?

better leave well enough alone in that regard

499 Gus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:59:40pm

re: #495 albusteve

crash...did you do that on purpose?

No crash here.

500 lostlakehiker  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 3:59:45pm

re: #88 marjoriemoon

It really is unbelievably frightening, and I know we joke (well I joke), but if you think about it long enough, it'll send a shiver up your spine.

Part of it is controlling women, who they screw, when, how and when and how they have children. That's also wrapped up in that bizarre cult, the "Darling Daughters" or those idiot man-freaks who have secret fantasies about screwing their own daughters under the guise of "I'll pick your husband not you, because, quite, frankly, you're too stupid to make such an important decision on your own."

So they have to control the women and then they have to control the men who threaten their own sexuality, because you know that most of these guys are one wink away from going to the "other side".

Anyway, the SPLC rocks!


Huh? That just doesn't make sense.

The notion that those who are quite a bit different from the majority in their desire for control are quite a bit different from the majority in that deep down what they really want, in a sexual partner, is a man, requires more evidence than just "it figures".

Most heterosexuals are not latent homosexuals, just as most homosexuals are not latent heterosexuals.

501 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:00:23pm

re: #475 SpaceJesus

Has SPLC named the GOP an official hate group? If not, they really should consider it.

Why go after their hollow shell of a front organization?

I once ran for office as a Republican. Today, that is about as likely as me being elected Pope.

502 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:00:28pm

re: #496 Gus 802

on land stolen from the Cheyenne....then used to incarcerate them....clever

503 lostlakehiker  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:00:55pm

re: #484 ozbloke

Thank you sizzleRI,

I have been helped and educated by this thread, and I thank you, marjorie, decatur deb and lostlakehiker.

Sorry if I missed anyone.

Oh and lostlakehiker, I hope I can help you.

Are you a lakehiker who is lost or a hiker who is lost at a lake?
Inquiring minds want to know.

If you must know, I'm a hiker to a lake that is lost. When it finds itself, it will include me in its satori.

504 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:01:09pm

Having just seen Manning's picture, there is something to be said for the observation that he looks like a little kid. I tend to have some sympathy for kids doing dumb, dumb things, as I did at that age. (Maybe not THAT dumb, but still.)

505 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:01:27pm

re: #499 Gus 802

No crash here.

when I looked at tee's, it dumped....no harm

506 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:02:16pm

re: #492 Fozzie Bear

You forgot my favorite: "Business up front and a party in back."

507 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:02:16pm

re: #504 Fozzie Bear

How old is he anyway? Is he as young as he looks, or does he just have a baby face?

508 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:03:05pm

re: #501 Shiplord Kirel

Why go after their hollow shell of a front organization?

I once ran for office as a Republican. Today, that is about as likely as me being elected Pope.

if it's any difference, I'd vote for you
a Pope with cowboy boots....yeah baybee!

509 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:03:39pm

re: #504 Fozzie Bear

Having just seen Manning's picture, there is something to be said for the observation that he looks like a little kid. I tend to have some sympathy for kids doing dumb, dumb things, as I did at that age. (Maybe not THAT dumb, but still.)

It is really sad that he threw his life away and did such damage to his country at such a young age. It's important to remember that what he did is also very very rare. Millions of young men and women serve honorably. It takes a special sort of asshole to do what he did,

510 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:04:29pm

re: #501 Shiplord Kirel

Why go after their hollow shell of a front organization?

I once ran for office as a Republican. Today, that is about as likely as me being elected Pope.

As longs as you don't try to say atheists caused the holocaust, i'd vote for you. (Somehow I don't think they are going to be letting atheists vote for pope anytime soon.)

511 Digital Display  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:05:21pm

re: #509 Killgore Trout

It is really sad that he threw his life away and did such damage to his country at such a young age. It's important to remember that what he did is also very very rare. Millions of young men and women serve honorably. It takes a special sort of asshole to do what he did,

Well said KT

512 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:05:27pm

re: #490 Sergey Romanov

Charles, not that I think anybody will seriously debate that Shamir works for WL, I think this may also be helpful:

[Link: vz.ru...]

It's Shamir's interview about Assange to a conservative Russian online newspaper. Shamir also reposted it in his LJ:

[Link: israel-shamir.livejournal.com...]

VZ characterizes Shamir as a "permanent representative of the journal "Russkij reportyor" at WikiLeaks, writer and publicist Israel Shamir."

Not debating it, just don't trust the net or libertarian magazines. My favorite Amish koan:

An Amishman and his son were clopping down the road, when the father said: "Son, what do you see on the hill?"
Son said: "A red barn."
The father said: "No, son, you see a barn that is red on this side."

513 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:05:55pm

re: #509 Killgore Trout

Yeah, he definitely lept way the hell over the line. Too far for "kids will be kids" to be a defense, to be sure.

514 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:06:12pm

re: #500 lostlakehiker

When you spend more time obsessing about gay sex than gay people do? I think that is...curious.

515 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:06:24pm

re: #503 lostlakehiker

If you must know, I'm a hiker to a lake that is lost. When it finds itself, it will include me in its satori.

I often ponder peoples nic's.

For mine, I had waited so long for an open reg, that when I saw it I shit myself ans panicked trying to get in before it closed.

You get to choose a username and its like, shit, urm, bugger, urm wel I'm a bloke from australia, oh I know, ozbloke.

Deep and meaningful, I have always been that way.

516 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:06:29pm

re: #509 Killgore Trout

It is really sad that he threw his life away and did such damage to his country at such a young age. It's important to remember that what he did is also very very rare. Millions of young men and women serve honorably. It takes a special sort of asshole to do what he did,

just imagine what 21 year old combat vets are thinking....and the disabled....it churns my guts....he has to go down, bigtime

517 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:07:15pm

re: #510 Fozzie Bear

As longs as you don't try to say atheists caused the holocaust, i'd vote for you. (Somehow I don't think they are going to be letting atheists vote for pope anytime soon.)

Ship digs chicks too....big advantage these days

518 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:08:08pm

re: #506 wrenchwench

You forgot my favorite: "Business up front and a party in back."

Haven't heard that in years, thats funny.

I had a mullet in the seventies, guilty as charged.

519 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:08:19pm

re: #517 albusteve

Ship digs chicks too...big advantage these days

They really should just let priests/cardinals/popes marry already.

520 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:08:54pm

re: #518 ozbloke

Haven't heard that in years, thats funny.

I had a mullet in the seventies, guilty as charged.

Aw shit. I had one in the 80's. I was young.

521 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:09:33pm

re: #519 Fozzie Bear

They really should just let priests/cardinals/popes marry already.

or at least make out and fondle

522 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:10:01pm

re: #515 ozbloke

I still have almost no idea why a muppet character lept to mind.

523 SpaceJesus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:10:03pm

re: #477 sizzleRI


por que?

524 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:10:13pm

re: #519 Fozzie Bear

They really should just let priests/cardinals/popes marry already.

Each other. While you're changing canon law, you might as well go whole hog.

525 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:10:54pm

re: #524 Decatur Deb

Each other. While you're changing canon law, you might as well go whole hog.

Sure, why the hell not. And use condoms, since we're shooting for the moon anyway.

526 Digital Display  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:11:03pm

re: #519 Fozzie Bear

They really should just let priests/cardinals/popes marry already.

I don't think that would have had any effect concerning raping little boys

527 SpaceJesus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:11:55pm

re: #486 Fozzie Bear


But they provide a welcome home for people like Tancredo, Angle, and others.

I agree it's likely a tactical decision, but honestly, the GOP probably deserves it as a result of them harboring nativisits and homophobes

528 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:11:58pm

re: #522 Fozzie Bear

I still have almost no idea why a muppet character lept to mind.

We could have an explain your nic day, could be enlightening.

529 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:12:19pm

re: #525 Fozzie Bear

Sure, why the hell not. And use condoms, since we're shooting for the moon anyway.

Heh..Heh..you said "shooting for the moon".

530 SpaceJesus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:12:26pm

re: #527 SpaceJesus

not just harboring, but promoting and financing

531 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:12:32pm

re: #526 HoosierHoops

I don't think that would have had any effect concerning raping little boys

true enough....talk about falling from grace...I have a hint that peds are some extremely devious people

532 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:13:25pm

re: #526 HoosierHoops

I don't think that would have had any effect concerning raping little boys

Directly, no. But there is an argument to be made that the priesthood attracts people who want to suppress their sexuality, and that this in turn would mean that some portion of those people are deviants who want to find a safe profession that will allow them to hide from their deviancy.

I realize this argument is kind of offensive, but there is some logic to it.

533 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:14:27pm

re: #527 SpaceJesus

But they provide a welcome home for people like Tancredo, Angle, and others.

I agree it's likely a tactical decision, but honestly, the GOP probably deserves it as a result of them harboring nativisits and homophobes

there is little defense for the type of onslaught we've seen this past year or so....when Steele took the bait, it was lost....re-election trumps governance

534 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:15:12pm

re: #529 Decatur Deb

Heh..Heh..you said "shooting for the moon".

Oh man. That was an unintended (but funny) pun, considering the context.

535 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:16:35pm

re: #523 SpaceJesus

Curiosity. I am pretty sure I remember you mentioning law school. I am in the middle of 2L exams. Just looking to dwell in some misery.

536 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:17:14pm

re: #507 Fozzie Bear

How old is he anyway? Is he as young as he looks, or does he just have a baby face?

Twenty-two.

537 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:17:49pm

re: #526 HoosierHoops

I agree. People don't rape small children because they're not allowed to marry adults. Might attract more non-pedophiles to the cloth though.

538 McSpiff  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:18:24pm

re: #536 SanFranciscoZionist

Twenty-two.

Pfft just a dumb kid...

//still lovin this birthday.

539 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:18:48pm

re: #515 ozbloke

I often ponder peoples nic's.

For mine, I had waited so long for an open reg, that when I saw it I shit myself ans panicked trying to get in before it closed.

You get to choose a username and its like, shit, urm, bugger, urm wel I'm a bloke from australia, oh I know, ozbloke.

Deep and meaningful, I have always been that way.

I was being upfront. When I registered, a lot of people really didn't like San Francisco here.

I added the 'Zionist' so they'd know why I was here.

540 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:18:48pm

re: #537 sizzleRI

I agree. People don't rape small children because they're not allowed to marry adults. Might attract more non-pedophiles to the cloth though.

like the Mafia to a petty thief

541 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:18:55pm

re: #537 sizzleRI

I agree. People don't rape small children because they're not allowed to marry adults. Might attract more non-pedophiles to the cloth though.

This is what I mean. If you make it more attractive to people with normal healthy sexual natures, it might not be so attractive to sickos.

542 SpaceJesus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:20:11pm

re: #535 sizzleRI


Yeah, I'm a 3L. Elena Kagan is giving our commencement speech in May I just found out. I just sat for my last "sit down" law final Thursday. I only have clinic next semester, so no more finals for me. Sorry to rub it in.

i still have this damn research paper to do for friday though...it pretty much sucks.

543 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:20:18pm

re: #539 SanFranciscoZionist

I was being upfront. When I registered, a lot of people really didn't like San Francisco here.

I added the 'Zionist' so they'd know why I was here.

Quite brave in that day.

544 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:21:11pm

re: #541 Fozzie Bear

I think in some ways it will always be attractive to the more sociopathic. Positions of power will attract people who want to abuse that power. But for the others? Who are very sick but not so pre-mediated? I don't know.

545 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:21:26pm

re: #539 SanFranciscoZionist

I was being upfront. When I registered, a lot of people really didn't like San Francisco here.

I added the 'Zionist' so they'd know why I was here.

Also, you're very scary when you want to be.
*Hides*
:P

546 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:21:55pm

re: #532 Fozzie Bear

Directly, no. But there is an argument to be made that the priesthood attracts people who want to suppress their sexuality, and that this in turn would mean that some portion of those people are deviants who want to find a safe profession that will allow them to hide from their deviancy.

I realize this argument is kind of offensive, but there is some logic to it.

I have a strong suspicion that the priesthood has been attracting gay men for lo these many hundreds of years, as it provides a viable place for a man who's not attracted to women in a society that doesn't accept homosexuality.

(My dad's cousin has said that he's sure he would have been a priest if he hadn't come out on getting home from Vietnam.)

Would that change if priests could marry? Would that change if the Church relaxed about gayness? Maybe.

I think that no matter what changes, however, pedophiles will probably still be attracted to the priesthood, for the same reason they're attracted to other professions that give you access to and authority over their targets.

547 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:22:37pm

re: #532 Fozzie Bear

It's also that they may honestly believe that their desires stem from a sinful nature, and be trying to expatiate it through service to god. Which I don't think works all that often.

548 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:22:44pm

re: #542 SpaceJesus

Cool about Elena Kagan! She was my 1st Amendment professor's 1st Amendment professor. I have 3 take homes left. And yet I am commenting here. Eh, no rubbing in, you earned it.

549 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:22:56pm

re: #543 ozbloke

Quite brave in that day.

I got a lot of sympathy, actually. People figured I was oppressed.

;)

550 McSpiff  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:23:00pm

re: #515 ozbloke

I often ponder peoples nic's.

For mine, I had waited so long for an open reg, that when I saw it I shit myself ans panicked trying to get in before it closed.

You get to choose a username and its like, shit, urm, bugger, urm wel I'm a bloke from australia, oh I know, ozbloke.

Deep and meaningful, I have always been that way.

Spiffy was given to me by a good friend in junior high. I've always used it online (or variants). McSpiff somehow fell out of that.

551 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:23:04pm

re: #539 SanFranciscoZionist

I was being upfront. When I registered, a lot of people really didn't like San Francisco here.

I added the 'Zionist' so they'd know why I was here.

I've seen the race that "Nanaki"/Red XIII from Final Fantasy Seven belongs to listed as "Firecat" at one point so that's my story...

552 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:23:11pm

re: #528 ozbloke

We could have an explain your nic day, could be enlightening.

Mine would be easy. I am a Submariner. Like the Marines, the is no such thing as an ex-submariner. Once you have earned your dolphins, you are one for the rest of your life.

bubblehead: Navy slang for a sailor stationed aboard a submarine. Opposite of a skimmer puke. Bubbleheads consider skimmer pukes to be targets that simply haven't been sunk yet.

553 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:23:41pm

re: #548 sizzleRI

Cool about Elena Kagan! She was my 1st Amendment professor's 1st Amendment professor. I have 3 take homes left. And yet I am commenting here. Eh, no rubbing in, you earned it.

She's your First Amendment Grandma?

554 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:23:45pm

re: #544 sizzleRI

I think in some ways it will always be attractive to the more sociopathic. Positions of power will attract people who want to abuse that power. But for the others? Who are very sick but not so pre-mediated? I don't know.

I think professions that have that aura of "purity" will alway attract people who deep down know they are "impure". Many cops, for instance, want the job because they can help protect and serve, and some others do it for the power it gives them over other people.

I see the priesthood as that kind of thing. Most of them do it for the right reasons, i'm sure, but there is a darker incentive there for those who are wired that way.

555 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:23:59pm

re: #552 Bubblehead II

Mine would be easy. I am a Submariner. Like the Marines, the is no such thing as an ex-submariner. Once you have earned your dolphins, you are one for the rest of your life.

bubblehead: Navy slang for a sailor stationed aboard a submarine. Opposite of a skimmer puke. Bubbleheads consider skimmer pukes to be targets that simply haven't been sunk yet.

I did not know that....thanks to you

556 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:24:37pm

re: #553 SanFranciscoZionist

And that is now how I will refer to her! Nana Kagan.

557 McSpiff  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:24:47pm

re: #552 Bubblehead II

Mine would be easy. I am a Submariner. Like the Marines, the is no such thing as an ex-submariner. Once you have earned your dolphins, you are one for the rest of your life.

bubblehead: Navy slang for a sailor stationed aboard a submarine. Opposite of a skimmer puke. Bubbleheads consider skimmer pukes to be targets that simply haven't been sunk yet.

Also explains your avatar and quote.

558 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:24:49pm

re: #552 Bubblehead II

Mine would be easy. I am a Submariner. Like the Marines, the is no such thing as an ex-submariner. Once you have earned your dolphins, you are one for the rest of your life.

bubblehead: Navy slang for a sailor stationed aboard a submarine. Opposite of a skimmer puke. Bubbleheads consider skimmer pukes to be targets that simply haven't been sunk yet.

And my profession hunts submarines...US ones are hard to find!!!

559 SpaceJesus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:25:37pm

re: #548 sizzleRI


Ah yes, con rights. I think we split ours up into 14th amendment fall semester and 1st amendment spring semester my 2L year. It was cooling have a professor who had argued some of those cases before SCOTUS teaching them to us.

560 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:25:38pm

re: #547 Obdicut

It's also that they may honestly believe that their desires stem from a sinful nature, and be trying to expatiate it through service to god. Which I don't think works all that often.

I agree. I think many pedophiles don't want to be pedophiles, so they try to find ways to fight it. And of course, many fail in that effort.

561 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:25:38pm

re: #552 Bubblehead II

Mine would be easy. I am a Submariner. Like the Marines, the is no such thing as an ex-submariner. Once you have earned your dolphins, you are one for the rest of your life.

bubblehead: Navy slang for a sailor stationed aboard a submarine. Opposite of a skimmer puke. Bubbleheads consider skimmer pukes to be targets that simply haven't been sunk yet.

re: #558 rwdflynavy

And my profession hunts submarines...US ones are hard to find!!!

Ruh roh!
/

562 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:26:58pm

You sunk my battleship!!!!

563 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:27:14pm

re: #561 Varek Raith

re: #558 rwdflynavy

Ruh roh!
/

It's all good. U.S. Submariners are as cool as the other side of the pillow!

564 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:28:00pm

re: #559 SpaceJesus

Ah yes, con rights. I think we split ours up into 14th amendment fall semester and 1st amendment spring semester my 2L year. It was cooling have a professor who had argued some of those cases before SCOTUS teaching them to us.

I'd rather take guitar lessons from Keith Richards

565 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:28:32pm

re: #550 McSpiff

Spiffy was given to me by a good friend in junior high. I've always used it online (or variants). McSpiff somehow fell out of that.

Spiffy, when I hear it I think of Monty Python, it sounds terribly British.

May I refer to you as Lord McSpiff?

566 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:28:47pm

re: #564 albusteve

I'd rather take guitar lessons from Keith Richards

First lesson!
How to properly fall from a tree.
/

567 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:28:49pm

re: #564 albusteve

I'd rather take guitar lessons from Keith Richards

Just don't let him sponsor you in Narcotics Anonymous, and you should be ok.

568 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:29:24pm

re: #566 Varek Raith

First lesson!
How to properly fall from a tree.
/

it was a stump, but his noggin was brittle

569 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:29:29pm

re: #564 albusteve

Eh, to each his own. David Boies (attorney for Gore and arguing with Olson for gay marriage) was on Colbert last night and I yelped like a school girl.

570 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:30:40pm

re: #569 sizzleRI

Eh, to each his own. David Boies (attorney for Gore and arguing with Olson for gay marriage) was on Colbert last night and I yelped like a school girl.

fine, but we need more good players, not more lawyers....rock on sista!

571 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:31:29pm

Time for Barret Brown to send more money to Assange....
WIKILEAKS FOUNDER JULIAN ASSANGE CAN’T RAISE CASH FOR BAIL

Supporters who have turned up at court to back him include socialite Jemima Khan, film director Ken Loach, journalist John Pilger and human rights campaigner Bianca Jagger. But Assange’s lawyer Mark Stephens said: “We have to come up with £200,000 in pound notes and that is difficult to come by.

“We’ve got about half of that now but of course people will understand that even wealthy people don’t keep that kind of money knocking around.”

He said members of the public had sent in “a couple of hundred here and there”.

572 Amory Blaine  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:32:14pm

re: #421 Charles

Muskrat Love. The most heinous torture device ever invented by man.

Paradise by the dashboard light. Makes me want to drive into a bridge abutment.

573 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:32:59pm

I live on the prairie and feel strongly about things = prairiefire.

574 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:33:14pm

re: #570 albusteve

I agree with that! Less lawyers = more jobs. More good players = more music. Its a win-win.

575 jaunte  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:34:34pm

re: #571 Killgore Trout

people will understand that even wealthy people don’t keep that kind of money knocking around


I find that a little hard to believe.

576 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:35:37pm

re: #574 sizzleRI

I agree with that! Less lawyers = more jobs. More good players = more music. Its a win-win.

reminds me....

577 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:36:44pm

re: #571 Killgore Trout

Time for Barret Brown to send more money to Assange...
WIKILEAKS FOUNDER JULIAN ASSANGE CAN’T RAISE CASH FOR BAIL

Bianca Jagger....what an air head

578 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:36:54pm

re: #558 rwdflynavy

P-3 Orions or S-3 Vikings?

My Nephew has just started Pilot training in the S-3. The Family has moved up from Enlisted to Officer

579 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:37:56pm

Oh social conservatives, never stop being fat angry superstitious old hater dinosaurs

One day these guys will turn into oil and my generation can cleanse our country of this witchy nonsense and viciousness

580 compound idaho  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:38:01pm

re: #542 SpaceJesus

Jean Kirkpatrick spoke at my commencement (CSM '83) INSPIRATIONAL! Great woman. Protesters came down from Bolder. Jerks!

581 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:38:38pm

re: #569 sizzleRI

Eh, to each his own. David Boies (attorney for Gore and arguing with Olson for gay marriage) was on Colbert last night and I yelped like a school girl.

I stumbled across a Colbert on demand that had Julie Taymor being interviewed. RAAAAAAD

582 Digital Display  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:38:45pm

re: #574 sizzleRI

I agree with that! Less lawyers = more jobs. More good players = more music. Its a win-win.

Everybody hates Lawyers until they go on a weekend drug induced binge, rob 6 liqueur stores, take hostages, escape in a negotiated helicopter and bury the bodies in a Mexican desert and get a 6000 dollar bail-out..
Then you love your Lawyer
/

583 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:38:55pm

re: #578 Bubblehead II

P-3 Orions or S-3 Vikings?

My Nephew has just started Pilot training in the S-3. The Family has moved up from Enlisted to Officer

584 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:39:27pm

re: #573 prairiefire

I live on the prairie and feel strongly about things = prairiefire.

You asked too late the other day--my dad was radioman on it, 3 missions.

585 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:39:57pm

re: #561 Varek Raith

No problem. He has his job and I had mine. Mine was to seek out and destroy enemy shipping, his is to seek out and destroy those like me. Kinda of a Yin/Yang thing I guess.

586 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:40:32pm

re: #580 compound idaho

Jean Kirkpatrick spoke at my commencement (CSM '83) INSPIRATIONAL! Great woman. Protesters came down from Bolder. Jerks!

lol I'd hate to imagine that people in Boulder would exercise their constitutional rights, can't have that

I mean, what assholes, who the fuck do these hippie shits think they are, Americans?

587 Amory Blaine  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:40:33pm

Amory Blaine=Protagonist from "This Side Of Paradise" by F. Scott Fitzgerald. He basically has high hopes for himself but realizes none of them. In the end, he is summed by this quote:

"I know myself, but that is all"

588 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:41:20pm

re: #584 Decatur Deb

{{Decatur Deb}} It is good just to have it, for history's sake. I have a photo of my grandparents' car after their accident. I rarely look at it, but I am glad i have it.

589 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:41:32pm

re: #575 jaunte

I find that a little hard to believe.

I think a lot of people would probably give enough money but he's probably going to bolt and they are going to forfeit the bail.

590 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:41:39pm

re: #579 WindUpBird

Oh social conservatives, never stop being fat angry superstitious old hater dinosaurs

One day these guys will turn into oil and my generation can cleanse our country of this witchy nonsense and viciousness

You're not bigoted against my generation, are you? The generation of ML King, Cesar Chavez, and Morris Dees?

OK, they're a little older than I am....

591 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:41:43pm

re: #582 HoosierHoops

Everybody hates Lawyers until they go on a weekend drug induced binge, rob 6 liqueur stores, take hostages, escape in a negotiated helicopter and bury the bodies in a Mexican desert and get a 6000 dollar bail-out..
Then you love your Lawyer
/

Don't I know it.

And by the way, you left out that minor indecent exposure matter at the old age home.

//

592 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:42:05pm

re: #576 albusteve

I know not the point, but those are adorable piglets. Piggies is one of the more disturbing on the White Album. And that is saying something.

593 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:44:02pm

re: #582 HoosierHoops

Let's be honest. Thats when your lawyer loves you.

594 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:44:26pm

re: #590 wrenchwench

You're not bigoted against my generation, are you? The generation of ML King, Cesar Chavez, and Morris Dees?

OK, they're a little older than I am...

No, i'm bigoted against people who consider me a second class citizen, and that tends to be people a lot older than their 20's and 30's pushing it.

I'm looking forward to the day when there is unambiguous support for people to live as they choose with the partner of their choice without being witchhunted, without being barred form the military, barred from visitation rights in hospitals. it's getting better, but it's also getting more hateful and vicious as the FRCs, the Focuses on the Families, the smiling shite-haired evil political preachers of this world recognize that their influence is receding.

595 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:44:45pm

re: #594 WindUpBird

ahaha shite haired. freudian typo

596 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:46:26pm

Bryan Fischer? is thayt the white haired creepy evil dominionist preacher I'm thinking of?

597 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:46:37pm

re: #583 rwdflynavy

Cool.

598 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:47:30pm

re: #571 Killgore Trout

Time for Barret Brown to send more money to Assange...
WIKILEAKS FOUNDER JULIAN ASSANGE CAN’T RAISE CASH FOR BAIL

It has to be in cold hard cash?
Wow...

599 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:49:18pm

re: #594 WindUpBird

Yeah I have no patience anymore. I don;t know what pisses me off more. The hateful in your face rhetoric? Or the well, it'll take time, suck it up, don't flaunt it now crowd? Probably the latter.

I didn't cry when Prop 8 passed. I sobbed when I read in that same election cycle Arkansas passed by a large majority a law banning gays from adopting. Not sure exactly why. Maybe because I think the reasons for that large majority are disgusting.

600 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:51:28pm

re: #598 ozbloke

Most of the time, bail is provided by bondsmen, but I doubt any of them want to take a risk on him. Not that I think he really will flee-- he'll be too well watched.

601 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:51:33pm

re: #594 WindUpBird

No, i'm bigoted against people who consider me a second class citizen, and that tends to be people a lot older than their 20's and 30's pushing it.

I'm looking forward to the day when there is unambiguous support for people to live as they choose with the partner of their choice without being witchhunted, without being barred form the military, barred from visitation rights in hospitals. it's getting better, but it's also getting more hateful and vicious as the FRCs, the Focuses on the Families, the smiling shite-haired evil political preachers of this world recognize that their influence is receding.

Don't forget that older people push that shit because they have worked themselves into positions of power by that age and can push more shit.

I know there is tremendous difference between the generations when it comes to gay rights, but I have a tendency to want to trim your broad brush a bit because there are some really cool and important old farts, AND there is a frightening number of young fascists.

602 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:51:39pm

re: #589 Killgore Trout

I think a lot of people would probably give enough money but he's probably going to bolt and they are going to forfeit the bail.

Did you hear they want him to wear a tag?

603 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:51:48pm

re: #97 HappyWarrior

What hasn't groups like the AFA, Christian Coallition, and others not desreved to earn the label of bigot? They justify discrimation against homosexuals because some Nazis jsut happened to be gay. Using that logic maybe we should discriminate against heterosexuals and Christians for the same reason. They have no credibility what so ever and the fact that these assholes have any political capital what so ever is maddening. Bryan Fischer mocks medal of honor winners even though the coward himself would shake in fear if ever in combat. I try not to be angry person but fuck the Christian right. These people make their issue not spreading love but making people like my cousin and his husband out to be perverts simply because of their sexual orientation.

I like referring to them as Dominionists, "christian right" gives them too much legitimacy. There are plenty of normal right wing christians who are, well, I ain't gonna hang with them, but they're not on board with the haters to this degree.

These guys though, aren't Christians. What they believe and advocate does not resemble Christianity at all, it's just marketing slogans and advertising style sleight of hand to keep people hypnotized and hating. it's to Christanity what the movie Hackers is to computer crime. it's a bad cartoon. Bryan Fischer, Pat Robertson, Dobson, Falwell, just as extreme as Phelps, they just say what they say in a more civilized manner as opposed to pulling stunts. Look beyond the stunts of the Phelps clan, and look beyond the outrage of them protesting funerals, and you'll find that a lot of these dominionist nutbags are just as evil, they just have a better governor on their behavior to legitimize their views to gullible people.

604 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:51:54pm

re: #598 ozbloke

It has to be in cold hard cash?
Wow...

yeah, it's called "stick it to the man"

605 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:52:03pm

re: #571 Killgore Trout

I am surprised you missed this.

Michael Moore posted his bond.

606 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:52:33pm

re: #598 ozbloke

It has to be in cold hard cash?
Wow...

I think so. All of his accounts are frozen and if they set up a proxy account I think there's a risk that it would be frozen too.

607 compound idaho  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:53:03pm

re: #586 WindUpBird

lol I'd hate to imagine that people in Boulder would exercise their constitutional rights, can't have that

I mean, what assholes, who the fuck do these hippie shits think they are, Americans?

Hey, I'm only exercising my constitutional right. Hate to imagine that. IMO They were just party crashers. (it was at tough 4 years)

608 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:53:06pm

re: #602 ozbloke

Did you hear they want him to wear a tag?

Those things can be hacked.

609 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:53:50pm

re: #452 Charles

Manning is defined as a "Maximum Custody Detainee," I see. Which, given the seriousness of the charges, is the only classification he would get.

He's in a US Marine brig. He admitted to deliberately, knowingly, with malice, leaking a huge number of classified documents. Among the crimes you can commit in the military, it's hard to think of many more serious that don't involve violence.

What did he think was going to happen to him? A brief stint in country club prison, then on to the book deals and the parties? Good grief.

He may go to jail for the rest of his life. The military doesn't fuck around. You get in trouble there, and you're in real trouble. And he's in about the worst trouble imaginable.

Like I said upthread, for what Manning did (and has mostly admitted to), he would have swiftly been at the end of a rope in another time and place.

He probably really did think that he would have largely escaped punishment and been on the left-wing brie-and-book circuit...Assange probably fed Manning a load of bullshit in order to get and keep him onboard (see the supposed offers of financial assistance to him from Assange/WikiLeaks).

And now Manning gets to pay the price, while Assange gets the credit (as it were)...

610 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:54:20pm

re: #605 Bubblehead II

I am surprised you missed this.

Michael Moore posted his bond.

That's only about 10% of what they need.

611 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:54:31pm

re: #600 Obdicut

Most of the time, bail is provided by bondsmen, but I doubt any of them want to take a risk on him. Not that I think he really will flee-- he'll be too well watched.

I thought that to, I don't know if that is British law, I wouldn't like to think it was only because it was Assange.

612 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:54:39pm

re: #601 wrenchwench

Absolutely agreed. I was raised by a mother (58 years old) who would say when I was particularly bratty, think tween years, "you are going to make some man, or woman, so happy one day."

613 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:55:37pm

re: #599 sizzleRI

Yeah I have no patience anymore. I don;t know what pisses me off more. The hateful in your face rhetoric? Or the well, it'll take time, suck it up, don't flaunt it now crowd? Probably the latter.

I didn't cry when Prop 8 passed. I sobbed when I read in that same election cycle Arkansas passed by a large majority a law banning gays from adopting. Not sure exactly why. Maybe because I think the reasons for that large majority are disgusting.

The adoption thing makes me vibrate with rage, it's sort of my confirmaion that these people WOULD be trying to throw us in jail or worse if they had the political environment and the wind at their backs to do so. Their connections to Ugandan right wing churches where they're advocating violence against gay people, that's my indication that A they're evil and B they're serious, and it's not just played for distractions during election years. These aren;t normal people, these arent civilized people. Barbarians in America may wear suits and ties and get on Fox News and drive nice cars, but they're still barbaric.

614 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:55:54pm

re: #611 ozbloke

I thought that to, I don't know if that is British law, I wouldn't like to think it was only because it was Assange.

in the US, the judge decides bond matters....I'd say he is a flight risk

615 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:56:46pm

re: #606 Killgore Trout

I think so. All of his accounts are frozen and if they set up a proxy account I think there's a risk that it would be frozen too.

Thanks Killgore.

616 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:56:47pm

re: #608 Killgore Trout

Those things can be hacked.

///Then maybe they can get police officer to be tethered to him on an elastic rope 50 feet long. Seriously I don't like Assange, but who would turn themselves in, post bail and then skip the country only after getting themselves put under a heavy watch? It just doesn't make sense!

617 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:57:07pm

re: #613 WindUpBird

Yes to everything. They just can't get away with what they want here.

618 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:57:32pm

re: #608 Killgore Trout

Those things can be hacked.

Hopefully not in the sense of having to chew your foot off.

619 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:57:42pm

re: #613 WindUpBird

The adoption thing makes me vibrate with rage, it's sort of my confirmaion that these people WOULD be trying to throw us in jail or worse if they had the political environment and the wind at their backs to do so. Their connections to Ugandan right wing churches where they're advocating violence against gay people, that's my indication that A they're evil and B they're serious, and it's not just played for distractions during election years. These aren;t normal people, these arent civilized people. Barbarians in America may wear suits and ties and get on Fox News and drive nice cars, but they're still barbaric.

a relatively small group....the problem is where the power lies, not in the numbers

620 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:58:56pm

re: #617 sizzleRI

Yes to everything. They just can't get away with what they want here.

Yet.

621 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 4:59:16pm

re: #610 Killgore Trout

OK, then I missed something. I know I saw a post earlier today that stated he was out and was staying at a posh home in England provided by Michael Moore. Must now go and find it.

622 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:02:17pm

Here it is. Assange Out of Prison, Into a Lavish Mansion

Posted by Charles himself.

623 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:02:44pm

re: #619 albusteve

I'd love to believe that. 2 years ago the vote in Arkansas to ban gays from being adoptive parents was passed by a vote margin of

579,695 - 57% to ban

437,720 - 43% not to

[Link: ballotpedia.org...]

Of course it bans all unmarried couples, but it was a thinly veiled attack on gays.

Now some people may believe that is not barbaric, but to me it absolutely is.

624 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:02:45pm

Glenn Beck and 9-11 Truther Andrew Napolitano indoctrinate Fox news audience on Wikileaks....

625 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:03:41pm

re: #622 Bubblehead II

Here it is. Assange Out of Prison, Into a Lavish Mansion

Posted by Charles himself.

I believe he is still in jail pending an appeal.

626 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:03:58pm

re: #622 Bubblehead II

Here it is. Assange Out of Prison, Into a Lavish Mansion

Posted by Charles himself.

Nope he's still in custody pending an appeal on the bail ruling. He might be out by tomorrow.

627 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:05:13pm

re: #625 ozbloke

I believe he is still in jail pending an appeal.

re: #626 Killgore Trout

Nope he's still in custody pending an appeal on the bail ruling. He might be out by tomorrow.

Thanks.
I was confused as to his status.

628 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:05:14pm

re: #626 Killgore Trout

Nope he's still in custody pending an appeal on the bail ruling. He might be out by tomorrow.

enough time for the FBI, Interpol and the CIA to close in on him

629 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:09:57pm

re: #626 Killgore Trout

Thanks for the update. But the info is still basically correct? Michael Moore and friends are still posting his bond and providing him a place to stay?

630 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:11:12pm

re: #571 Killgore Trout

Time for Barret Brown to send more money to Assange...
WIKILEAKS FOUNDER JULIAN ASSANGE CAN’T RAISE CASH FOR BAIL

Lemme cry a fucking river for ol' Julian and his supporters/confederates...

631 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:11:14pm

re: #629 Bubblehead II

Thanks for the update. But the info is still basically correct? Michael Moore and friends are still posting his bond and providing him a place to stay?

Yup, I think so.

632 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:11:50pm

Bagger 288!

633 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:12:20pm

Michael Moore was on the Olbermann show last night. He also offered to host the Wikileaks site, but I don't think he really was clear about what that meant. He's grandstanding, as usual.

634 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:12:32pm

We're under a winter weather advisory. As in snow.

In Raleigh.

635 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:14:02pm

re: #629 Bubblehead II

Thanks for the update. But the info is still basically correct? Michael Moore and friends are still posting his bond and providing him a place to stay?

I believe you are correct.

636 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:16:14pm

And sure enough, right on cue, tonight Olbermann's pushing the Glenn Greenwald Pvt. Manning torture claim.

637 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:16:31pm

re: #633 Charles

Michael Moore was on the Olbermann show last night. He also offered to host the Wikileaks site, but I don't think he really was clear about what that meant. He's grandstanding, as usual.

IMO, Moore is a bloviating, self-important, aggrandizing bastard in the same vein as Rush Limbaugh, just without the political juice...

638 brookly red  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:16:51pm

re: #634 researchok

We're under a winter weather advisory. As in snow.

In Raleigh.

snow in RTP? does that count as a cold day in hell? ;)

639 SpaceJesus  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:17:14pm

re: #580 compound idaho

I could only imagine what kind of hilarity would ensue if she was our commencement speaker. Although we did have Scalia come talk to my constitutional law class my 1L year, and it went smooth. I also won the gold star that day when he asked us what the 17th amendment was...no big deal.

640 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:19:19pm

re: #638 brookly red

snow in RTP? does that count as a cold day in hell? ;)

Pretty much.

We won't get much snow but the schools are opening late, regardless.

The city doesn't a bus that slid off the road and full of crying kids making national news.

When they salt the road here, they interrupt regular programming to tell us.

641 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:20:20pm

US House votes to lift military gay ban

The US House of Representatives has voted to end the US military ban on gays serving openly, leaving it to the senate to seize what backers of repeal say may be their last chance for years.

By a 250-175 margin, lawmakers approved a stand-alone bill to scrap the 1993 policy, popularly known as "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," which requires gays to keep quiet about their sexual orientation or face dismissal.

642 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:20:29pm

re: #637 talon_262

IMO, Moore is a bloviating, self-important, aggrandizing bastard in the same vein as Rush Limbaugh, just without the political juice...

nobody is really gonna fall for the torture gig....just blow it out their asses....there is no torture, no matter how hard they stomp their feet....good entertainment tho watching people squirm in public

643 brookly red  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:20:45pm

re: #640 researchok

I was down at GSK, for the blizzard of 07...

644 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:20:56pm

re: #637 talon_262

IMO, Moore is a bloviating, self-important, aggrandizing bastard in the same vein as Rush Limbaugh, just without the political juice...

Dude is all about stunts

Not as race-baitey and hateful as Rush though. Just more with the bloviating and the stunts and the bullcrap. Moore is with Penn Jilette for me, guys who are talented and smart and definitely have an art to what they do, but their stunts and their pandery rhetoric and their politics drive me up the wall.

645 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:21:11pm

re: #641 ozbloke

US House votes to lift military gay ban

The US House of Representatives has voted to end the US military ban on gays serving openly, leaving it to the senate to seize what backers of repeal say may be their last chance for years.

By a 250-175 margin, lawmakers approved a stand-alone bill to scrap the 1993 policy, popularly known as "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," which requires gays to keep quiet about their sexual orientation or face dismissal.

righteous

646 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:21:34pm

re: #639 SpaceJesus

Scalia is supposed t be great in person. Also his decisions are the most fun to read.

647 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:21:47pm

re: #633 Charles

Michael Moore was on the Olbermann show last night. He also offered to host the Wikileaks site, but I don't think he really was clear about what that meant. He's grandstanding, as usual.

this is all getting SO cyberpunk

648 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:21:50pm

re: #643 brookly red

I was down at GSK, for the blizzard of 07...

A couple of years earlier, we had an ice storm.

No power for 9 days.

649 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:21:58pm

re: #641 ozbloke

US House votes to lift military gay ban

The US House of Representatives has voted to end the US military ban on gays serving openly, leaving it to the senate to seize what backers of repeal say may be their last chance for years.

By a 250-175 margin, lawmakers approved a stand-alone bill to scrap the 1993 policy, popularly known as "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," which requires gays to keep quiet about their sexual orientation or face dismissal.


Wow.

650 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:22:21pm

re: #649 SanFranciscoZionist

I guess they had to wait for the lame duck? :D

651 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:22:37pm

re: #645 WindUpBird

righteous

The article doesn't say when that vote happened.
I am not now confident it was today.

652 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:23:24pm

re: #651 ozbloke

The article doesn't say when that vote happened.
I am not now confident it was today.

From CNN

Washington (CNN) -- The House of Representatives voted Wednesday to overturn the ban on openly gay and lesbian soldiers serving in the U.S. military, passing legislation repealing the controversial "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

The bill -- a so-called "stand alone" measure not tied to any other legislative items -- passed 250 to 175 on mostly partisan lines. It now advances to the Senate.

653 jaunte  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:24:10pm

re: #651 ozbloke
Dec 15...
[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

654 brookly red  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:24:13pm

re: #648 researchok

A couple of years earlier, we had an ice storm.

No power for 9 days.

Oh the horror! how did you keep you beer cold?

655 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:24:13pm

re: #652 Varek Raith

From CNN

Good news.

656 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:24:16pm

re: #652 Varek Raith

From CNN

I had to check and make sure it was wednesday

NO SENSE OF TIME WHEEEEEE

657 lostlakehiker  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:24:27pm

re: #613 WindUpBird

The adoption thing makes me vibrate with rage, it's sort of my confirmaion that these people WOULD be trying to throw us in jail or worse if they had the political environment and the wind at their backs to do so. Their connections to Ugandan right wing churches where they're advocating violence against gay people, that's my indication that A they're evil and B they're serious, and it's not just played for distractions during election years. These aren;t normal people, these arent civilized people. Barbarians in America may wear suits and ties and get on Fox News and drive nice cars, but they're still barbaric.

I don't know about "those people", but some of us do straddle the fence. Against gay marriage, but against DADT, say. And not about to throw anybody in jail much less kill them for being gay. Not about to let it happen politically, either.

We are your political opponents on one issue, your allies on another. Not your mortal enemies. We don't wear suits, we don't drive nice cars, and we aren't barbarians.

658 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:24:28pm

re: #654 brookly red

Oh the horror! how did you keep you beer cold?

okay i loled

659 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:24:48pm

re: #654 brookly red

Oh the horror! how did you keep you beer cold?

Uh...put them outside???
:P

660 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:25:18pm

re: #651 ozbloke

The article doesn't say when that vote happened.
I am not now confident it was today.

This seems to say so.

661 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:25:46pm

re: #654 brookly red

Oh the horror! how did you keep you beer cold?

Cold wasn't the problem

See this

662 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:26:00pm

re: #636 Charles

And sure enough, right on cue, tonight Olbermann's pushing the Glenn Greenwald Pvt. Manning torture claim.

It's amazing how much support Assange and Manning are getting from pundits and blogs. Both are still horribly unpopular with Americans in the meat world.

663 brookly red  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:26:07pm

re: #659 Varek Raith

Uh...put them outside???
:P

face palm...

yes, living in the city you forget these things...

664 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:26:12pm

re: #656 WindUpBird

I had to check and make sure it was wednesday

NO SENSE OF TIME WHEEE

Thursday here, 12:25pm hence my hesitation.

665 Ericus58  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:26:18pm

re: #552 Bubblehead II

Mine would be easy. I am a Submariner. Like the Marines, the is no such thing as an ex-submariner. Once you have earned your dolphins, you are one for the rest of your life.

bubblehead: Navy slang for a sailor stationed aboard a submarine. Opposite of a skimmer puke. Bubbleheads consider skimmer pukes to be targets that simply haven't been sunk yet.

Ahh, being an ex- Destroyerman (and a sonar tech to boot), you my friend were the prize we sought.... if you had been on the "other " team that is ;)

666 compound idaho  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:26:42pm

Here is what we should do. We should release all classified documents and have a vote on what should be declassified or could let wikileaks decide for all free people throughout the world. Not! Sometimes that fact that it is only embarrassing is enough to keep it from our adversaries, and we do have re: #639 SpaceJesus

I could only imagine what kind of hilarity would ensue if she was our commencement speaker. Although we did have Scalia come talk to my constitutional law class my 1L year, and it went smooth. I also won the gold star that day when he asked us what the 17th amendment was...no big deal.

I seriously doubt you can find a more right wing public institution than the Colorado School of Mines. We need oil, iron, sand and gravel to improve the human condition. I have no doubt about it. Somebody has to know how to get it out of the ground.
s
"More money changes hands in sand and gravel than gold and silver" wish I could remember which prof. told me that.

667 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:26:44pm

re: #664 ozbloke

Thursday here, 12:25pm hence my hesitation.

Still Wednesday evening in North America.

668 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:27:19pm

re: #667 SanFranciscoZionist

Still Wednesday evening in North America.

ONE WORLD TIMEZONE!!!
/

669 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:28:12pm

BTW, Minecraft is very much worth the $15. Would make a nice stocking stuffer.

670 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:29:31pm

re: #657 lostlakehiker

If you do not support my right to get married or adopt children you are not my ally. Sorry. Don't fucking want you.

671 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:31:30pm

re: #664 ozbloke

Thursday here, 12:25pm hence my hesitation.

What is going on in the future?

672 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:31:32pm

re: #657 lostlakehiker

I don't know about "those people", but some of us do straddle the fence. Against gay marriage, but against DADT, say. And not about to throw anybody in jail much less kill them for being gay. Not about to let it happen politically, either.

We are your political opponents on one issue, your allies on another. Not your mortal enemies. We don't wear suits, we don't drive nice cars, and we aren't barbarians.

here's my thing about being against gay barriage.

Do you believe that americans are equal under the law? Like the constitution says?

I don't know how one squares separate and not equal (what we have now) with equality under the law (what i want.)

I don't think you're a barbarian, however! you are totally misguided and on the wrong side of history. This will happen, and our hypothetical nieces and nephews and children and grandchildren will shake their heads in wonder that our country ever discriminated against gay people or told them that their union was lesser, or that marriage was some kind of instution whose parameters were dictated by the superstitious, or barred them from adopting, or scared schools into firing us, or witchhunted us at PTA meetings, or wrote down our license plate numbers and stalked us, or cornered our kids in locker rooms because their mom was a lesbian, or pulled a knife on us in a parking lot.

For the misfortune of being a queer. All the shit above happened to me, my brother(who wasn't even gay! But hung out with gay students) or close friends of my family.

if you are against gay marriage, you oin a small way help legitimize discrimination. You stand on the side of people who believe that they're just a bit MORE equal than we are because of who they're attracted to. You know, gays are American? But with an asterisk. We can fuck! We just can't get rights where it counts. Fuck all you want! But hospital visitation? raising a family together? Hold on their champ! This is a Christian Nation!

Them's the facts. If you believe in my America, you believe we all have the same rights. if you don't believe we all the same rights, you still believe in America! Just the...older America. The one my parents talk about when Martin luther King day rolls around each year.

673 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:31:56pm

re: #672 WindUpBird

GAY BARRIAGE

way to typo, dude

674 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:31:57pm

re: #662 Killgore Trout

It's amazing how much support Assange and Manning are getting from pundits and blogs. Both are still horribly unpopular with Americans in the meat world.

Interesting that in the western world outside the US many think its a good thing.

In your opinion, do you think WikiLeaks' distribution of diplomatic correspondence is in the public's best interest?

675 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:32:15pm

re: #670 sizzleRI

If you do not support my right to get married or adopt children you are not my ally. Sorry. Don't fucking want you.

Let's pass a law saying that, oh, Republicans can't get married or adopt children.
///

676 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:33:02pm

re: #671 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What is going on in the future?

You will receive my paypal details shortly, fill in the form.

All will be revealed.

677 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:33:06pm

re: #673 WindUpBird

GAY BARRIAGE

way to typo, dude

Bar the door, Katy!

678 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:33:11pm

re: #672 WindUpBird

That was fucking beautiful.

679 jaunte  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:33:32pm

re: #673 WindUpBird

That's the thing with the big tethered anti-aircraft balloons, right?

680 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:34:06pm

re: #665 Ericus58

Ahh, being an ex- Destroyerman (and a sonar tech to boot), you my friend were the prize we sought... if you had been on the "other " team that is ;)

You were Opfor. You usually failed (against us).

Live with it. :-)

681 brookly red  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:34:21pm

re: #673 WindUpBird

GAY BARRIAGE

way to typo, dude

I was thinking that had to do with a bunch of cannons...

682 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:34:26pm

re: #672 WindUpBird

Well, I suppose I could have explained my self this well.

683 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:34:45pm

re: #670 sizzleRI

If you do not support my right to get married or adopt children you are not my ally. Sorry. Don't fucking want you.

You're new to this "hearts and minds" thing, aren't you?

684 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:35:09pm

re: #657 lostlakehiker

I don't know about "those people", but some of us do straddle the fence. Against gay marriage, but against DADT, say. And not about to throw anybody in jail much less kill them for being gay. Not about to let it happen politically, either.

We are your political opponents on one issue, your allies on another. Not your mortal enemies. We don't wear suits, we don't drive nice cars, and we aren't barbarians.

Lost as Harry Turtledove through Robert E. Lee put it in Guns of the South, : there's no such thing as giving a man a little freedom.

If you allow them to serve openly and with distinction on the front lines, what right do we to deny them a chance to marry their best guy/gal when they get home?

685 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:35:16pm

re: #673 WindUpBird

GAY BARRIAGE

way to typo, dude

OPEN FIRE!!!
Wait, what???

686 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:35:27pm

personally I could give a shit what gays do with their lives....level the playing field and move on to more important things... leave it to the feds to ponder and wring over such a minor issue, like it's any of their business to begin with

687 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:35:53pm

re: #670 sizzleRI

If you do not support my right to get married or adopt children you are not my ally. Sorry. Don't fucking want you.

Yeah, I have no issue with gay marriage.

See my 134.

There are a lot more important social/cultural issues to deal with.

688 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:35:57pm

re: #672 WindUpBird

correction: the teacher who was fired wasn't a close friend of my family, it was my best friend's favorite science teacher, who I met a couple times, sort of a zany SCIENCE! guy, like a Bill Nye guy, but older and shorter

basically, they circulated enough flyers and smears and the notoriously conservative PTA in that district (dominated by an incredibly rich neighborhood that basically controlled the show) basically got their way and forced him into retirement

689 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:36:10pm

re: #662 Killgore Trout

It's amazing how much support Assange and Manning are getting from pundits and blogs. Both are still horribly unpopular with Americans in the meat world.

I may be wrong, have you seen this?

Our WikiLeaks poll

690 CuriousLurker  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:36:23pm

re: #599 sizzleRI

re: #603 WindUpBird

I'm kinda late on this topic, but I want to say this:

This whole thing really bothers me because I think a lot of religious people don't separate their religious views on this issue from the Constitutional aspects, just like many of them can't seem to separate their views on science from religion.

About a year ago I got into a heated debate about it with a friend of mine who's also an American convert. She doesn't hate gay people, but she thinks homosexuality is a choice and she thinks it's "wrong" (FWIW, she had the same opinion before converting.)

Aside from the fact that I think it's absurd to assert that homosexuality is a choice, I kept trying to get her to understand that marriage is (or should be) a civil matter insofar as the law is concerned, and it should therefore be considered a civil right protected by the Constitution for everyone.

We went round & round about it for what seemed like forever, and things were getting very heated. I finally asked her if it was a religious matter, then pray tell WHOSE religion should dictate the rules? Protestants? Catholics? Jews? Muslims? Mormons? They're all different. What about Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, etc? What about atheists? Since they don't have any religion, should they not be allowed to marry, or should they be forced to abide by someone else's rules? Would SHE mind having to abide by another religions rules?

That pretty much ended the discussion. She conceded that maybe it was a civil matter after all, but she wasn't very happy at the realization. In the interests of our long-standing friendship and the affection I have for her, I left it alone at that point.

I think until more people correctly understand the Establishment Clause, this nonsense is going to continue. If we had an official state religion that dictated our laws, then I would say, "Okay, we have to follow that." But we DON'T, we have the Constitution. Maybe it needs to go to the Supreme Court, I don't know... if it remains up to Congress, I fear things will never change because politicians will worry more about votes... if it remains up to the states and their respective voters, then it'll be the the tyranny of the majority unless or until people change their thinking.

It really sucks for you guys.

691 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:36:25pm

re: #674 ozbloke

Interesting that in the western world outside the US many think its a good thing.

In your opinion, do you think WikiLeaks' distribution of diplomatic correspondence is in the public's best interest?

What, you mean we're not the only people that matter? :D

692 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:36:31pm

re: #683 Decatur Deb

Hahahaha. That was a bit harsh. I just don't care anymore.

693 Ericus58  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:36:45pm

re: #583 rwdflynavy

[Video]

Very nice, Grats indeed!

I'm kinda partial to this new bird coming to a squadron near you... The P-8A.

[Link: www.boeing.com...]

694 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:36:52pm

re: #686 albusteve

personally I could give a shit what gays do with their lives...level the playing field and move on to more important things... leave it to the feds to ponder and wring over such a minor issue, like it's any of their business to begin with

Yes its not at all like its a federal matter who is and who isn't married when it comes time to collect income taxes...

695 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:38:07pm

re: #689 ozbloke

I may be wrong, have you seen this?

Our WikiLeaks poll

Interesting question they asked.

The fact is Wikileaks released a lot more than Afghan war documents.

A whole lot more.

696 brookly red  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:38:07pm

re: #694 jamesfirecat

Yes its not at all like its a federal matter who is and who isn't married when it comes time to collect income taxes...

nothing is off limits to the tax man...

697 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:38:26pm

re: #689 ozbloke

I may be wrong, have you seen this?

Our WikiLeaks poll

Heres one that says the opposite:

Poll: Americans say WikiLeaks harmed public interest; most want Assange arrested

698 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:39:18pm

re: #657 lostlakehiker

I don't know about "those people", but some of us do straddle the fence. Against gay marriage, but against DADT, say. And not about to throw anybody in jail much less kill them for being gay. Not about to let it happen politically, either.

We are your political opponents on one issue, your allies on another. Not your mortal enemies. We don't wear suits, we don't drive nice cars, and we aren't barbarians.

By the way Lost, this is for you to watch and think about....

It's about DADT repeal and John McCain, but it can apply to anyone who cares to stand against Gay Marriage as well

699 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:39:24pm

re: #694 jamesfirecat

Yes its not at all like its a federal matter who is and who isn't married when it comes time to collect income taxes...

yes, correct

700 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:40:52pm

re: #687 researchok

There are a lot more important social/cultural issues to deal with.

I should walk away for awhile. because this bullshit infuriates me. I am quite capable of worrying about many social issues at once. Really. I am not having so much gay sex that I can't manage that feat.

And sure I guess there are more important matters than marrying then person of your choice (although Loving would disagree), becoming a parent, not being able to be fired for your sexuality, or being barred from housing.

But you know what? If you're not gay then fuck off on telling me what is more or less important. This is my fucking life that you have pushed to the side as a matter of trivial importance.

701 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:41:09pm

re: #695 researchok

Interesting question they asked.

The fact is Wikileaks released a lot more than Afghan war documents.

A whole lot more.

Yes, you are correct.

Did you see this one?

702 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:41:53pm

re: #690 CuriousLurker

Thank you.

703 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:41:56pm

re: #674 ozbloke

Interesting that in the western world outside the US many think its a good thing.

In your opinion, do you think WikiLeaks' distribution of diplomatic correspondence is in the public's best interest?

It's not surprising. Anti-American sentiment is more popular outside America.

704 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:42:11pm

Good thing we don't poll on whether we should keep certain documents classified.
That would be stupid.

705 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:42:16pm

re: #700 sizzleRI

There are a lot more important social/cultural issues to deal with.

I should walk away for awhile. because this bullshit infuriates me. I am quite capable of worrying about many social issues at once. Really. I am not having so much gay sex that I can't manage that feat.

And sure I guess there are more important matters than marrying then person of your choice (although Loving would disagree), becoming a parent, not being able to be fired for your sexuality, or being barred from housing.

But you know what? If you're not gay then fuck off on telling me what is more or less important. This is my fucking life that you have pushed to the side as a matter of trivial importance.

why all the hostility?....I think you are missing something

706 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:42:57pm

re: #662 Killgore Trout

It's amazing how much support Assange and Manning are getting from pundits and blogs. Both are still horribly unpopular with Americans in the meat world.

Hey Killgore,
What were you referencing here?

707 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:43:27pm

re: #690 CuriousLurker

re: #603 WindUpBird

It really sucks for you guys.

great post. Honestly, as far as it affects me, i don't get mad for myself, i'm in an incredibly gay friendly town, in a gay-friendly neighborhood, and it's just not a problem here in Portland.

The people I'm afraid for are kids, teenagers, misfits, especially in schools where kids aren't quite so watched over, in areas of the country where the climate is hostile to them. The sorts of gay kids I knew growing up, who are basically victims of the culture. Some bully's parents are teaching him by example to distrust or dislkike queers, well, stupid bully kid puts that into practice. And vulnerable queers in red states who are being told they can't adopt, or who have some grandstanding politician condemning them to prop up the base. Sucks for them. I lucked out in high school for the most part, I really looked far more like heavy metal Black Sabbath/Queensryche fanboy with ratty long hair who dressed in black, sat in the back, rather than the typical gay kid. Didn't get the flack my brother got, didn't get the flack some of my friends in less tolerant locales in America got.

708 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:44:06pm

re: #687 researchok

Yeah, I have no issue with gay marriage.

See my 134.

There are a lot more important social/cultural issues to deal with.

Hey, weren't people saying this to black people not so long ago?

709 ozbloke  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:44:15pm

re: #703 Killgore Trout

It's not surprising. Anti-American sentiment is more popular outside America.

Agreed.

710 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:44:43pm

re: #705 albusteve

I'm pretty clear about why the hostility. You can also read WUB's reasons. It makes me angry to here that policies that affect the most personal of my life's decisions are of little import. Maybe to you.

711 CuriousLurker  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:44:49pm

re: #702 sizzleRI

Thank you.

You're welcome. But you shouldn't need to thank me or anyone else.

We live in America and we have a Constitution that should be applied equally regardless of religious views (or lack thereof).

712 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:45:32pm

The definition of soft bigotry "Equality is nice! We just, you know don't consider it important to us that you're equal."

Gee, thanks, straight conservative guy! May I peel you a grape and kiss your ring finger?

Maybe if I'm a very very GOOD little gayboy, you'll decide to give me some rights some day!

here's hopin'! :D :D

713 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:45:38pm

re: #707 WindUpBird

yeah, I should calm down. I have it pretty good as a queer.

714 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:45:48pm

re: #705 albusteve

why all the hostility?...I think you are missing something

Really dude?

715 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:46:44pm

re: #693 Ericus58

Very nice, Grats indeed!

I'm kinda partial to this new bird coming to a squadron near you... The P-8A.

[Link: www.boeing.com...]

I hope it lives up to the hype. I'm not too keen on High Altitude ASW (dropping buoys and torps from 25,000 feet) since I don't want to get hit by them while flying around at 500 feet.

716 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:46:50pm

re: #711 CuriousLurker

Its nice to read such a well reasoned comment.

717 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:47:17pm

re: #700 sizzleRI

There are a lot more important social/cultural issues to deal with.

I should walk away for awhile. because this bullshit infuriates me. I am quite capable of worrying about many social issues at once. Really. I am not having so much gay sex that I can't manage that feat.

And sure I guess there are more important matters than marrying then person of your choice (although Loving would disagree), becoming a parent, not being able to be fired for your sexuality, or being barred from housing.

But you know what? If you're not gay then fuck off on telling me what is more or less important. This is my fucking life that you have pushed to the side as a matter of trivial importance.

Excuse me? What is your problem? I support your right to marry, unequivocally, as I noted in the link I referred to .

Since when are you so special? Since when do your wants, needs, desires get to move to the front of the line?

I'm sorry you face discrimination. I will stand up for you and your rights as equal.

That said, the operative word is equal.

You want to piss on me, that's fine- and that goes two ways.

718 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:47:25pm

re: #710 sizzleRI

I'm pretty clear about why the hostility. You can also read WUB's reasons. It makes me angry to here that policies that affect the most personal of my life's decisions are of little import. Maybe to you.

beats me...I support all gay rights, govt makes it more than it is, the socons are out of control....that's why I say level the field and let people live their own lives....it needn't be a political issue and shouldn't be....I resent the fact that it is

719 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:48:03pm

re: #717 researchok

Excuse me? What is your problem? I support your right to marry, unequivocally, as I noted in the link I referred to .

Since when are you so special? Since when do your wants, needs, desires get to move to the front of the line?

I'm sorry you face discrimination. I will stand up for you and your rights as equal.

That said, the operative word is equal.

You want to piss on me, that's fine- and that goes two ways.

Re, how about you tell us what social issues you feel are more important than gays being allowed to marry?

720 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:48:57pm

re: #715 rwdflynavy

I hope it lives up to the hype. I'm not too keen on High Altitude ASW (dropping buoys and torps from 25,000 feet) since I don't want to get hit by them while flying around at 500 feet.

*Humming tune*
WTFISTHATAMARK45?!?!?!

721 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:49:44pm

re: #718 albusteve

I resent it too. And maybe I read you wrong. I agree that it shouldn't be such a big deal. It shouldn't be anything. Equalize and move on.

722 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:49:50pm

re: #719 jamesfirecat

Re, how about you tell us what social issues you feel are more important than gays being allowed to marry?

Uh, racism, poverty, sexism, hunger, etc., for starters.

Look, I fully support the right of gays to marry and to share in full equal rights.

Period.

723 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:49:57pm

re: #719 jamesfirecat

Re, how about you tell us what social issues you feel are more important than gays being allowed to marry?

the POINT is the perspective has been highjacked and knocked out of whack....gay marriage should not be a political issue

724 Digital Display  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:50:26pm

re: #714 WindUpBird

Really dude?

You are a really good person..Best wishes..
My little Sister is gay..I know what she has experienced in this world..It hasn't been easy for her

725 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:50:35pm

re: #722 researchok

Uh, racism, poverty, sexism, hunger, etc., for starters.

Look, I fully support the right of gays to marry and to share in full equal rights.

Period.

All of those are a lot harder to fix than giving everyone equal rights under the law.

726 CuriousLurker  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:50:50pm

re: #687 researchok

There are a lot more important social/cultural issues to deal with.

I know this is going to piss you off, but between the above and your comment last night about child prostitution in Afghanistan being "nowhere as important as the people Assange is endangering now", I'm really beginning to wonder about your priorities.

727 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:50:52pm

re: #713 sizzleRI

yeah, I should calm down. I have it pretty good as a queer.

That's just it. it's because WE DO have it good (I'm lucky that i had a good family. Lucky that I had the money to live in a city. Lucky that I have the resources to protect myself and make my own living somewhere where I'm comfortable) that it pisses me off. because I know people who don't or didn't. Hell, people I know who weren't even gay! But they were drama nerds and stood up for gay people, or went to a college where things were uglier under the surface, or got kicked out of their home and disowned by their parents, or beat up constantly, or whatever. So dumb, so crazy, and it keeps on going.

I seem to know a lot of smart misfits that had it shitty in school. That seems to be a large portion of my social gorup ;-)

The point all boils down to this: America is reflecting bigotry in its laws. it legitimizes bigotry by codifying it into law. If America says gays can't marry, well, maybe there's something to that!

We change the laws, and that moves culture.

728 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:51:41pm

re: #705 albusteve

why all the hostility?...I think you are missing something

He missed it all.

Sadly.

729 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:51:44pm

re: #725 SanFranciscoZionist

All of those are a lot harder to fix than giving everyone equal rights under the law.

Also, just for one instance, the fortune spent on passing Prop 8 could have done a shitload of work in any of those areas.

730 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:52:09pm

re: #722 researchok

Because it is not possible to care about all of those things and gay rights? Why?

731 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:52:48pm

re: #594 WindUpBird

No, i'm bigoted against people who consider me a second class citizen, and that tends to be people a lot older than their 20's and 30's pushing it.

I'm looking forward to the day when there is unambiguous support for people to live as they choose with the partner of their choice without being witchhunted, without being barred form the military, barred from visitation rights in hospitals. it's getting better, but it's also getting more hateful and vicious as the FRCs, the Focuses on the Families, the smiling shite-haired evil political preachers of this world recognize that their influence is receding.

There's a lot of white-haired old farts that want the same thing, including me.

732 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:53:51pm

re: #717 researchok

Excuse me? What is your problem? I support your right to marry, unequivocally, as I noted in the link I referred to .

Since when are you so special? Since when do your wants, needs, desires get to move to the front of the line?

I'm sorry you face discrimination. I will stand up for you and your rights as equal.

That said, the operative word is equal.

You want to piss on me, that's fine- and that goes two ways.

When you say "there are a lot more important social/cultural issues to deal with" that kinda sounds assholely and privileged and gatekeepery and smug and satisfied.

And we don't like that.


Especially since this is a relatively simple task here. Make it so gay people aren't driven out of the military, make it so they can enter into marriages. Adopt, live, grow old, die, just like everyone else, and with all the rights that entails.

Easy.

So easy, that it actually is quite strange to me how you can dismiss it as a pressing issue. it's not a damn 2000 page bill. it's not rebuilding social security.

Come on. Seriously. You say some really weird and disconnected things sometimes.

733 albusteve  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:54:14pm

re: #729 SanFranciscoZionist

Also, just for one instance, the fortune spent on passing Prop 8 could have done a shitload of work in any of those areas.

no shit...while self righteous pols sit around and ponder their next antigay maneuver, on your dime....it's an obscene perversion of govt

734 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:54:25pm

re: #731 b_sharp

There's a lot of white-haired old farts that want the same thing, including me.

You can't be an old fart! :D

735 jamesfirecat  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:54:31pm

re: #722 researchok

Uh, racism, poverty, sexism, hunger, etc., for starters.

Look, I fully support the right of gays to marry and to share in full equal rights.

Period.

Do you know of any bills that can easily solve those problems?

Those are huge as problems, the biggest thing that is wrong is that at the moment gay discrimination is still obviously institutionalized here in the US we have to take down the easy targets first, HAVE TO.

736 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:54:35pm

re: #727 WindUpBird

That's just it. it's because WE DO have it good (I'm lucky that i had a good family. Lucky that I had the money to live in a city. Lucky that I have the resources to protect myself and make my own living somewhere where I'm comfortable) that it pisses me off. because I know people who don't or didn't. Hell, people I know who weren't even gay! But they were drama nerds and stood up for gay people, or went to a college where things were uglier under the surface, or got kicked out of their home and disowned by their parents, or beat up constantly, or whatever. So dumb, so crazy, and it keeps on going.

I seem to know a lot of smart misfits that had it shitty in school. That seems to be a large portion of my social gorup ;-)

The point all boils down to this: America is reflecting bigotry in its laws. it legitimizes bigotry by codifying it into law. If America says gays can't marry, well, maybe there's something to that!

We change the laws, and that moves culture.

Everything you said. And I would like to point out its not just marriage. Its becoming a parent. Its the fact that in many states in this country you have no employment or housing protection. And guess what? That intersects with poverty and racism and sexism.

737 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:55:26pm

re: #599 sizzleRI

Yeah I have no patience anymore. I don;t know what pisses me off more. The hateful in your face rhetoric? Or the well, it'll take time, suck it up, don't flaunt it now crowd? Probably the latter.

I didn't cry when Prop 8 passed. I sobbed when I read in that same election cycle Arkansas passed by a large majority a law banning gays from adopting. Not sure exactly why. Maybe because I think the reasons for that large majority are disgusting.

Real evil comes in many forms.

738 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:55:28pm

re: #725 SanFranciscoZionist

All of those are a lot harder to fix than giving everyone equal rights under the law.

OK, lets try this again, before the pissfest..

I fully support gay marriage and equal rights for all. I am vehemently against discrimination. I want to see that happen now. See my 134.

And you know me better- I don't discriminate- ever.

So go ahead and piss away, but all he had to do was read what I wrote.

739 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:56:06pm

re: #730 sizzleRI

Because it is not possible to care about all of those things and gay rights? Why?

I love the notion that we can only do one thing at once. American exceptionalism never seemed LESS exceptional, lol.

When that thing isn't even a thing that will create new government or cost money. "Change the laws in such a way that it MAKES everyone money! More busines,s more fees going to the county for marriage licenses!"

740 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:56:44pm

re: #739 WindUpBird

I love the notion that we can only do one thing at once. American exceptionalism never seemed LESS exceptional, lol.

When that thing isn't even a thing that will create new government or cost money. "Change the laws in such a way that it MAKES everyone money! More busines,s more fees going to the county for marriage licenses!"

GOLD!

741 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:56:52pm

re: #605 Bubblehead II

I am surprised you missed this.

Michael Moore posted his bond.

Why is this significant?

742 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 5:58:53pm

re: #736 sizzleRI

That's just it. it's because WE DO have it good (I'm lucky that i had a good family. Lucky that I had the money to live in a city. Lucky that I have the resources to protect myself and make my own living somewhere where I'm comfortable) that it pisses me off. because I know people who don't or didn't. Hell, people I know who weren't even gay! But they were drama nerds and stood up for gay people, or went to a college where things were uglier under the surface, or got kicked out of their home and disowned by their parents, or beat up constantly, or whatever. So dumb, so crazy, and it keeps on going.

I seem to know a lot of smart misfits that had it shitty in school. That seems to be a large portion of my social gorup ;-)

The point all boils down to this: America is reflecting bigotry in its laws. it legitimizes bigotry by codifying it into law. If America says gays can't marry, well, maybe there's something to that!

We change the laws, and that moves culture.

Everything you said. And I would like to point out its not just marriage. Its becoming a parent. Its the fact that in many states in this country you have no employment or housing protection. And guess what? That intersects with poverty and racism and sexism.

The lack of housing protection for gay people is TERRIFYNG. That's sort of the darkest and most evil thing of all. it's often a thing that's forgotten.

Which places specifically prohibit housing discrimination against lesbians and gay men?

As already mentioned, four states do: Connecticut, Massachusetts,New Jersey, and Wisconsin. So do many cities, both large and small, and a number of counties. The cities include New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Philadelphia, Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, San Jose, San Diego, Denver, Minneapolis, St. Paul, Milwaukee, Columbus, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, Boston, Hartford, Baltimore, and Washington, D.C. (See Appendix C.)

Another state, California, has a statutethe Unruh Civil Rights Actthe courts have interpreted to outlaw all forms of arbitary discrimination by landlords, including discrimination against lesbians and gay men. 8

At this point, federal law prohibits discrimination in housing only on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin,9 or on account of "handicap" (including AIDS and HIV infection) or "familial status" (a term intended to protect people with children).10 Eventually, Congress may see fit to add "sexual orientation" to this list.

Can a lesbian or gay man be denied a mortgage on the basis of sexual orientation?

Yes, except in those placesmentioned abovethat have specifically outlawed sexual-orientation discrimination. The personal life of an applicant for a mortgage should be irrelevant to the determination of whether he or she is credit-worthy. But in the past, banks and other lenders, like many employers, have viewed lesbians and gay men as inherently unstable and therefore financially unreliable.

744 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 6:00:57pm

re: #727 WindUpBird

I seem to know a lot of smart misfits that had it shitty in school. That seems to be a large portion of my social gorup ;-)

The point all boils down to this: America is reflecting bigotry in its laws. it legitimizes bigotry by codifying it into law. If America says gays can't marry, well, maybe there's something to that!

We change the laws, and that moves culture.

"I think I found your problem, there."

The laws trail the culture. Technology, Economics, Religion, and Social Control (Law), in about that order are the major drivers. Historical events are important "outside" inputs.

"Trust me, I'm an anthropologist."

745 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 6:01:18pm

I just don't get not allowing gays to marry or serve openly in the military.

746 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 6:02:19pm
Did you know the Federal Fair Housing Act does not protect gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people from discrimination in the sale, rental or financing of homes? As a result, many finance companies, leasing agents or insurance companies may treat same-sex couples differently than other prospective homebuyers or lessees.

HRC warns, "Couples have been discriminated against when shopping for a home. Others have been told they cannot put both partners' names on a homeowner's insurance policy, which is important to do if both partners share ownership of the home. And still other couples have been discriminated against when filing a claim as some insurance companies have attempted to refuse claims or cancel policies on the grounds that the owners are 'unrelated.'"

[Link: gaylife.about.com...]

747 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 6:02:28pm

re: #738 researchok

OK, lets try this again, before the pissfest..

I fully support gay marriage and equal rights for all. I am vehemently against discrimination. I want to see that happen now. See my 134.

And you know me better- I don't discriminate- ever.

So go ahead and piss away, but all he had to do was read what I wrote.

I'm not pissing. I accept what you said.

That said, I will say again--this is much easier to fix than many, many societal problems.

748 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 6:02:42pm

Sure, you're discriminated against when it comes to SHELTER. But hey, that's not important right now.

749 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 6:02:43pm

re: #735 jamesfirecat

Do you know of any bills that can easily solve those problems?

Those are huge as problems, the biggest thing that is wrong is that at the moment gay discrimination is still obviously institutionalized here in the US we have to take down the easy targets first, HAVE TO.

I don't disagree with that one bit.

Here's the deal: I don't care if anyone is straight, gay, bi, etc.

I really don't give a shit. An individual's life is not defined by his or her orientation.

What I do care about is discrimination and equal rights. Period.

I'll stand up for his rights and anyone else who's rights are being abrogated.

Even the assholes who piss on me.

750 sizzleRI  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 6:02:55pm

re: #743 WindUpBird

Oh WUB, but its not as important. Get in the proper place in the importance line. Really going now, I probably overreacted, but whatever. Tired arguments are tired.

But thank you for being awesome and eloquent when I couldn't be.

751 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 6:02:59pm

re: #747 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm not pissing. I accept what you said.

That said, I will say again--this is much easier to fix than many, many societal problems.

yes

752 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 6:03:41pm

re: #750 sizzleRI

Oh WUB, but its not as important. Get in the proper place in the importance line. Really going now, I probably overreacted, but whatever. Tired arguments are tired.

But thank you for being awesome and eloquent when I couldn't be.

I came on LGf when I was properly caffienated is all *_*

753 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 6:05:03pm

re: #743 WindUpBird

Challenges for gay elderly, lack of welcoming retirement housing

I used to work for a gay synagogue in SF. At one point, our program director was working on a grant for programming for the gay elderly. She wrote something about there not being recognition or welcome for gay elders in retirement and nursing homes.

"You can't say that," one of my coworkers said. "You don't have evidence of that."

So she called Jewish Home for the Aged, and asked what programs they had for the gay elderly.

The lady there told her that they had no gay residents.

"OK, now you can write it," Coworker said.

754 researchok  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 6:05:40pm

re: #747 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm not pissing. I accept what you said.

That said, I will say again--this is much easier to fix than many, many societal problems.

I appreciate that. Thank you.

As for fixing the problem, I agree it is easier- and that is why I allocate some assets elsewhere, so to speak.

By the way, I wanted you to read this, about schools and education in Britain. The article has caused quite a stir and I wanted your opinion as an educator.

755 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 6:10:33pm

re: #741 b_sharp

Why is this significant?

Ummmm.... Because Michael Moore isn't exactly Pro-America?

756 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 6:11:02pm

re: #745 Varek Raith

I just don't get not allowing gays to marry or serve openly in the military.

the socon pushback against the DADT repeal creeps me out, because such a large part of this country is involved with the military, family in the military, vets, people serving themselves. it's a gigantic component of the very fabric of our country. If I had to choose between repealing DADT and federal gay marriage, i'd say repeal DADT first. That will change culture more, and more quickly. it's more of a statement, it carries more force.

beyond even the right to serve, the notion that the military legitimizes discrimination gives the cue to Americans to follow the military's lead. America is in love with the armed forces, it's a big part of our culture. Clearly the vast majority of active soldiers see through this and couldn't care less about gay/straight status of their comrades. But well, there's a lot more people than active soldiers who are steeped in military culture. And there's groups like the FRC who are betting on peoples' military connections and sense of patriotism can be twisted to shoot down any repeal of DADT.

757 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 6:11:38pm

re: #753 SanFranciscoZionist

I used to work for a gay synagogue in SF. At one point, our program director was working on a grant for programming for the gay elderly. She wrote something about there not being recognition or welcome for gay elders in retirement and nursing homes.

"You can't say that," one of my coworkers said. "You don't have evidence of that."

So she called Jewish Home for the Aged, and asked what programs they had for the gay elderly.

The lady there told her that they had no gay residents.

"OK, now you can write it," Coworker said.

hah!

758 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 6:12:04pm

re: #755 Bubblehead II

Ummm... Because Michael Moore isn't exactly Pro-America?

haha what does pro-america even mean

759 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 6:13:16pm

re: #732 WindUpBird


Especially since this is a relatively simple task here. Make it so gay people aren't driven out of the military, make it so they can enter into marriages. Adopt, live, grow old, die, just like everyone else, and with all the rights that entails.

Easy.

It's a straightforward problem with an easy fix that many countries, including Canada, have applied, without their social fabric crumbling.

The US needs to enter the 21st.

760 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 6:15:28pm

re: #734 WindUpBird

You can't be an old fart! :D

Tell that to my body.

I'm a 20 something riding a 55 year old body.

761 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 6:17:54pm
762 Amory Blaine  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 6:18:45pm

re: #760 b_sharp

Tell that to my body.

I'm a 20 something riding a 55 year old body.

Maybe it's just me but that reads funny. :)

763 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 6:18:50pm

For my gay lizard comrades "Freedom":

764 laZardo  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 6:20:51pm

Yeah, someone tell me why it's wrong to "broad-brush" conservatives with evidence like these again?

765 MinisterO  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 6:26:16pm

re: #759 b_sharp

It's a straightforward problem with an easy fix that many countries, including Canada, have applied, without their social fabric crumbling.

The US needs to enter the 21st.

I pray that what's going on now is just a symptom of the dawning realization that the period of US economic, military and cultural world domination is drawing to a close. We've been acting like spoiled brats for a few decades. The baby eventually has to share and play nice like everybody else.

766 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 6:26:48pm

re: #755 Bubblehead II

Ummm... Because Michael Moore isn't exactly Pro-America?

Really?

So his advertising of some of the short comings he feels the US has means he's anti-american?

Granted, he's an arrogant, manipulative, self serving ass-hole, but labelling anyone 'not pro-american' because they find some areas need improvement is nonsense.

767 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 6:32:14pm

re: #758 WindUpBird

United States Constitution and the Bill Of Rights..Ect...

This may seem the coward way out, but I am drunk. If you wish to continue this conversation, please contact me tomorrow. I will then be sober.

To the rest of the Lizard nation.

Good Night.

768 ryannon  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 6:32:34pm

re: #765 MinisterO

I pray that what's going on now is just a symptom of the dawning realization that the period of US economic, military and cultural world domination is drawing to a close. We've been acting like spoiled brats for a few decades. The baby eventually has to share and play nice like everybody else.

Mwahahaha!

New feature: The LGF Comedy Hour!

Priceless.

769 MinisterO  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 6:48:06pm

re: #768 ryannon

Mwahahaha!

New feature: The LGF Comedy Hour!

Priceless.

Thank you thank you I'll be here all week.

770 MinisterO  Wed, Dec 15, 2010 7:16:56pm

Say something stupid on the internet and you're that guy.

I wish I'd said "The baby eventually has to share and play nice like everybody else who's not a sociopathic shithead." Or something like that.

771 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 3:08:47am

re: #309 marjoriemoon

Upon further reflection, I think you may have misinterpreted these words in my #150:

And of course OT still stands on this part since it is not simply a ritual commandment, but it says clearly that "it is an abomination", therefore it is a moral principle, even if the execution may not apply any longer.

Please, note that I'm talking strictly about Christianity here. The comment pertains to the issue of whether the Law or parts of the Law were made null and void by Jesus's sacrifice. This certainly doesn't tell what religious Jews should or should not do or believe.

772 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 3:11:50am

re: #758 WindUpBird

haha what does pro-america even mean

Indeed. I find this pro-[state] rhetoric weird in most cases. I'm pro-liberal democracy. Those states that come close to it are fine by me.


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Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
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Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
3 days ago
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