Non-Organization Attacks Bank of America Website

US News • Views: 26,377

And this morning, the non-organization of non-hackers who are everywhere and everyone is attacking the website of Bank of America.

It’s pretty obvious that these vigilante morons won’t be allowed to continue doing this much longer.

UPDATE at 12/27/10 11:08:29 am:

And now, because I criticized them, ‘anonymous’ is attacking LGF. Hang in there, I’ve alerted our host.

UPDATE at 12/27/10 11:28:45 am:

It looks as if the BofA attack has fizzled. The site is coming up right away now.

Jump to bottom

456 comments
1 brookly red  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:18:10am

or it could just be disgruntled customers. no /

2 insanity police  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:21:38am

These hackers will regret it when the cops come pounding on the door of their parent’s home. As Charles has shown in previous postings, they are anything by anonymous.

3 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:22:31am

What exactly are they trying to achieve? I don’t understand.

4 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:24:21am

If they are attacking I can’t tell, the site is eyeblink responsive no matter what Link I click.

5 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:24:27am

Adults climb Mt Everest because it is there. Out in the open where everyone can see their success or their failure.

Children hack into Bank of America because it is there. Cloistered in Mommy’s basement were they think they are anonymous.

6 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:25:32am

Chaos reigns as Operation: Bank of America takes shape

Based on what we have learned, Operation: Bank of America (O:BoA) is not the same operation that was rumored before the holidays, which went by the name Operation: BOA Constrictor, as proposed by a user by the name of Zarly on December 12.

Instead, O:BoA is a splinter of Operation: Payback. The plan is to use the LOIC tool to launch a Distributed Denial-of-Service (DDoS) attack against the Bank of America website Monday afternoon. From there, the DDoS, which has been called the modern-day version of a sit-in, could last until the site has been down for hours at a time or until the voluntary botnet created by LOIC fizzles out.

7 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:25:41am

re: #4 Thanos

If they are attacking I can’t tell, the site is eyeblink responsive no matter what Link I click.

It was down earlier for a while, but it looks like BofA has blocked out the bogus traffic now.

8 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:26:47am

re: #1 brookly red

or it could just be disgruntled customers. no /

there must be millions of them, including me…a despicable outfit

9 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:26:58am

re: #7 Charles

It was down earlier for a while, but it looks like BofA has blocked out the bogus traffic now.

So, basically, these folks are giving the IT department at BofA an irritating morning as they get back from Christmas weekend?

10 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:27:16am

re: #7 Charles

It was down earlier for a while, but it looks like BofA has blocked out the bogus traffic now.

I don’t think those morons who do these things know how easy it is to block their pathetic attempts. Snort - define - blackhole.

11 jaunte  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:28:08am

re: #6 Killgore Trout

Mooning the ATM would be just as effective.

12 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:28:45am

re: #9 SanFranciscoZionist

So, basically, these folks are giving the IT department at BofA an irritating morning as they get back from Christmas weekend?

That’s about the gist of it.
An annoying half-hour then back to business as usual.
DDOS attack FAIL!

13 brookly red  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:29:14am

re: #10 Thanos

I don’t think those morons who do these things know how easy it is to block their pathetic attempts. Snort - define - blackhole.

and when it comes to pass that using the intrewebs requires an (expensive) licence, they will realize the errors of their ways.

14 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:29:28am

re: #11 jaunte

Mooning the ATM would be just as effective.

well it has made the headlines, but if you cannot damage them, then what’s the point?

15 brookly red  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:30:23am

re: #14 albusteve

well it has made the headlines, but if you cannot damage them, then what’s the point?

/ chics dig it?

16 jaunte  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:31:01am

re: #14 albusteve

Maybe there will be a book deal in it for someone.

17 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:31:26am

re: #15 brookly red

/ chics dig it?

heh…”hey babe, check ME out!”
the 4 second orgasm

18 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:31:43am

re: #11 jaunte

Mooning the ATM would be just as effective.

Make the ATMs shoot money!
That’ll be impressive!
/

19 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:32:15am

re: #16 jaunte

Maybe there will be a book deal in it for someone.

that’s always the case….Assange has one going himself

20 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:43:00am

re: #16 jaunte

Maybe there will be a book deal in it for someone.

I don’t think anyone wants to read a book about hackers not getting very much done. If they managed to get away to an island paradise with a clean billion, that would be one thing.

21 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:43:03am

Did LGF just hiccup or something?

22 Kragar  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:44:12am

re: #21 Alouette

Did LGF just hiccup or something?

Yes.

23 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:49:06am

re: #20 SanFranciscoZionist

I don’t think anyone wants to read a book about hackers not getting very much done. If they managed to get away to an island paradise with a clean billion, that would be one thing.

Who would buy a book by Assange? It’s everyone’s human right to download it for free.

24 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:49:28am

Looks like the hacker heroes may be attacking LGF now because I criticized them.

25 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:50:10am

Yep. We’re getting referrals from anon chat servers.

26 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:50:25am

re: #21 Alouette

Did LGF just hiccup or something?

I thought it was my computer.

27 Kragar  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:50:29am

re: #24 Charles

Looks like the hacker heroes may be attacking LGF now because I criticized them.

So much for freedom of speech and being anti-censorship.

28 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:55:51am

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

29 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:56:32am

Yep, we’re definitely being targeted. I’ve alerted our host, so they can start blocking traffic upstream.

30 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:56:34am

These assholes all need to get a life. Or a job.

31 Kragar  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 10:58:14am

re: #29 Charles

Yep, we’re definitely being targeted. I’ve alerted our host, so they can start blocking traffic upstream.

I guess BB rallied the non-troops.

32 brookly red  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:00:00am

This is like getting your leg humped by a Chihuahua…

33 Areozol  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:06:01am

re: #30 Alouette

These assholes all need to get a life. Or a job.

Those 4chan’s Anonymous are just overgrown kids, that have access to popular web diagnostic tools, using them as cybernetic equivalent of permanent marker used for drawing obscene graffitis in public toilets. They are just below the script-kids hacking hierarchy:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

34 darthstar  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:08:35am

Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow…

Vimeo
35 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:09:13am

re: #28 Killgore Trout

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

Yes, there are several referrals in there from anon IRC channels. Guess they didn’t like being called ‘vigilante morons.’

36 dmon  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:11:30am

WOW…. this is just as scary as when the neighbor kid stuck his thumbs in his ears, wiggled his hands, and chanted “Nanna Nanna Boo Boo”

37 jaunte  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:12:00am

Distributed denial of vigilante moronhood.

38 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:13:21am

re: #35 Charles

Yes, there are several referrals in there from anon IRC channels. Guess they didn’t like being called ‘vigilante morons.’

Well, take away the “vigilante” part.

39 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:13:24am

Well, either they’re calling off the hounds, or HM has enabled the deflector shields. The flood seems to be subsiding.

40 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:14:26am

Right when the attack started, this guy followed me on Twitter — one of the BofA attackers:

[Link: twitter.com…]

41 jaunte  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:14:52am

re: #23 Alouette

Who would buy a book by Assange? It’s everyone’s human right to download it for free.

If he calls it “Steal This Book” I might buy one.

42 researchok  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:14:56am

So much for the ‘freedom of speech’ these guys are so keen on.

I guess ‘protected’ speech only applies to them.

43 ihateronpaul  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:15:15am

“It’s pretty obvious that these vigilante morons won’t be allowed to continue doing this much longer.”

1. vigilante morons - a shitload of people of all ages from all areas of the world, that don’t give a fuck about what the law on cyberhacking is
2. won’t be allowed to continue - the stupidest thing I’ve read all week. Now, Charles, you are one of my favorite bloggers, and I agree with you around 90% of the time. But are you fucking kidding me? They are a leaderless movement. You can’t just stop a leaderless movement in it’s tracks. While you’re at it, put out some taunts to the ALF and see if a) they care or b) they listen to you. You’ll get the same result with anonymous.

I’d like to make clear that I am not a supporter of anonymous, I am a support of logic and reason and it’s illogical and unreasonable to make the statement that a leaderless group of hackers can be stopped in their tracks by some “magic governmental action”

44 brookly red  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:16:12am

re: #41 jaunte

If he calls it “Steal This Book” I might buy one.

I actually knew Abbie…

45 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:16:18am

re: #32 brookly red

This is like getting your leg humped by a Chihuahua…

Nonsense. Chihuahuas are cute.

46 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:16:26am

re: #43 ihateronpaul

And this is one of the dumbest, most naive posts I’ve read on this subject yet.

47 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:16:42am

re: #43 ihateronpaul


They are a leaderless movement. You can’t just stop a leaderless movement in it’s tracks.


The nation states are falling!

48 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:17:35am

‘Leaderless movement’ my ass.

These attacks are coordinated by leaders. It’s pure idiocy to insist that it’s some amazing new hive mind phenomenon. Stupid self-aggrandizing idiocy.

49 darthstar  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:17:50am

re: #45 SanFranciscoZionist

Nonsense. Chihuahuas are cute.

And pretty well endowed, proportionally speaking…

50 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:18:47am

re: #43 ihateronpaul

“It’s pretty obvious that these vigilante morons won’t be allowed to continue doing this much longer.”

1. vigilante morons - a shitload of people of all ages from all areas of the world, that don’t give a fuck about what the law on cyberhacking is
2. won’t be allowed to continue - the stupidest thing I’ve read all week. Now, Charles, you are one of my favorite bloggers, and I agree with you around 90% of the time. But are you fucking kidding me? They are a leaderless movement. You can’t just stop a leaderless movement in it’s tracks. While you’re at it, put out some taunts to the ALF and see if a) they care or b) they listen to you. You’ll get the same result with anonymous.

I’d like to make clear that I am not a supporter of anonymous, I am a support of logic and reason and it’s illogical and unreasonable to make the statement that a leaderless group of hackers can be stopped in their tracks by some “magic governmental action”

A whiff of grapeshot will stop a mob in its tracks.

51 brookly red  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:19:01am

re: #49 darthstar

And pretty well endowed, proportionally speaking…

yes, exactly, let the taunting begin…

52 Kragar  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:19:12am

Anyone who actually buys their “leaderless non-organization” spiel is a sucker. Sure, most of their drones are script kiddies who’ve watched too many movies, but they do have key figures.

53 ihateronpaul  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:21:37am

re: #46 Charles

And this is one of the dumbest, most naive posts I’ve read on this subject yet.

Yeah man, it’s really dumb and naiive to present a thought-out response to a blog post. It’s a good thing I spent the whole post hyperventilating off-topic.

/////

54 dmon  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:22:06am

My guess is that Visa is actively working to track them down, nuthin puts the Kibosh on idiots doin stupid stuff faster than their buddy spending some time and jail and their mommys and daddys paying thousand in restitution.

55 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:22:35am

re: #52 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Anyone who actually buys their “leaderless non-organization” spiel is a sucker. Sure, most of their drones are script kiddies who’ve watched too many movies, but they do have key figures.

If they ever do any real damage while attacking BofA or Visa, they’ll find out very quickly that their fantasy about being anonymous was a pipe dream.

56 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:22:52am

While the hiccup had my LGF frozen, I decided to play with my new Kindle.

LO AND BEHOLD, I can get my LGF on my Kindle. Done.

Yes, I feel old (because I didn’t know such things were possible) and so kool because I did it all by myself.

I am so glad Charles and you-all are here.

57 Areozol  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:23:32am

re: #52 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Anyone who actually buys their “leaderless non-organization” spiel is a sucker. Sure, most of their drones are script kiddies who’ve watched too many movies, but they do have key figures.

Especially “V for Vendetta” - hence those idiotic Guy Fawkes masks.

Image: anonymous_masks.jpg

58 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:24:14am

re: #51 brookly red

yes, exactly, let the taunting begin…

Who does the count-down for the Anarchists?

LEADER: Five…
(SOMEONE FROM THE CROWD): B.O.A. SUCKS!
LEADER: Uh… wait! It’s not time yet. Four…
(ANOTHER VOICE FROM THE CROWD) ANARCHY!
LEADER: Dammit?! Wait a minute! I’ve got to count down to one! Thr… (ANOTHER SMELLY PERSON) DOWN WITH THE…
LEADER: SON OF A BITCH!

59 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:25:14am

The Anonymous Cult © strikes again.

60 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:25:17am

I can’t image what it would be like to be the parent of one of these idiots.

61 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:26:19am

Here’s one of the sites where this non-organization with no leaders is coordinating these attacks:

[Link: 02.chat.mibbit.com…]

62 jaunte  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:26:39am

re: #43 ihateronpaul

it’s illogical and unreasonable to make the statement that a leaderless group of hackers can be stopped in their tracks by some “magic governmental action”

From Killgore’s link upthread:

There is another issue almost no one discussed. Many of the people who use LOIC to stage a digital protest are easily tracked. Moreover, Bank of America has been expecting this type of response since they announced their plan to cut off payment processing to WikiLeaks. It’s possible that given the forewarning, Bank of America’s servers are simply going to be used to collect data and pass it along to law enforcement.
[Link: www.thetechherald.com…]
63 William of Orange  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:26:39am

Childish…..

And I bet none of the fuckers has an account there.

64 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:27:28am

re: #62 jaunte

It’s what I would do if I had an IT department.

65 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:27:55am

re: #63 William of Orange

Childish…

And I bet none of the fuckers has an account there anywhere.

66 ihateronpaul  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:28:31am

re: #52 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Anyone who actually buys their “leaderless non-organization” spiel is a sucker. Sure, most of their drones are script kiddies who’ve watched too many movies, but they do have key figures.

of course it is not traditionally leaderless, the whole point though is that anyone in the organization can become a “key figure” if they arrange a protest (real world or cyber). and this is why, in my opinion, they can’t be stopped, only slowed down…..

but whatever if it makes you feel better call me a moron/idiot/naiive ass motherfucker, I’m just trying to fill everyone in on how anonymous tends to function in general

67 jaunte  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:28:42am

Spartacus now has an ip address.

68 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:28:45am

re: #64 Charles

It’s what I would do if I had an IT department.

You do. It just happens to be you.

69 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:28:51am

re: #57 Areozol

Especially “V for Vendetta” - hence those idiotic Guy Fawkes masks.

Image: anonymous_masks.jpg

Trust-funder types. The hacker “movement” is also predominantly a bunch of single white males.

70 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:29:00am

re: #61 Charles

Here’s one of the sites where this non-organization with no leaders is coordinating these attacks:

[Link: 02.chat.mibbit.com…]

Transparency for me and thee. :)

71 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:29:44am

re: #67 jaunte

Spartacus now has an ip address.

What exactly do they want BofA to do? Or is this just a random attack for fun?

72 ihateronpaul  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:29:51am

re: #62 jaunte

From Killgore’s link upthread:

yes, I’m aware that every participant in an internet attack risks being caught. The point of anonymous is that if you catch those people, others will take their place with better spoofing and encryption than before

73 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:29:58am

re: #52 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Anyone who actually buys their “leaderless non-organization” spiel is a sucker. Sure, most of their drones are script kiddies who’ve watched too many movies, but they do have key figures.

Well, it’s a movement, not an organization. But of course a movement can have leaders. There is no real organizational exclusivity that makes up a leadership position, though. Anyone can claim it (provided you have enough brains or charisma, which I don’t think much is required to lead these goons around).

74 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:30:10am

re: #66 ihateronpaul

of course it is not traditionally leaderless, the whole point though is that anyone in the organization can become a “key figure” if they arrange a protest (real world or cyber). and this is why, in my opinion, they can’t be stopped, only slowed down…

but whatever if it makes you feel better call me a moron/idiot/naiive ass motherfucker, I’m just trying to fill everyone in on how anonymous tends to function in general

Sounds like a nebulous religion. Oh that’s right. They’re a cult.

75 jaunte  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:30:18am

re: #69 Gus 802

I’m pretty sure the Nigerian spammers are too busy for this stuff.

76 Kragar  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:31:04am

re: #67 jaunte

Spartacus now has an ip address.

Its spoofed.

77 brookly red  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:31:17am

re: #69 Gus 802

Trust-funder types. The hacker “movement” is also predominantly a bunch of single white males.

who would last about 90 seconds in general population…

78 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:31:48am

re: #55 Charles

If they ever do any real damage while attacking BofA or Visa, they’ll find out very quickly that their fantasy about being anonymous was a pipe dream.

That’s one of the things that demonstrates most obviously why the average Anonymous is such a dunce: LOIC does not provide anonimity, and anonimity on the web at large is a very different thing from 4chan, mostly just available in rather obscure fractions like Tor and Freenet.

79 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:32:00am

You can’t pick on us! We’re leaderless!

/Yawn.

80 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:32:02am

My kid took me to see the Facebook movie. Social Network?

From the portrayals of the computer nerds in the movie, they are a dismal lot. My lay diagnosis is something in the autism spectrum. Or a very cloistered childhood.

Sad really.

81 Kragar  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:32:09am

re: #66 ihateronpaul

of course it is not traditionally leaderless, the whole point though is that anyone in the organization can become a “key figure” if they arrange a protest (real world or cyber). and this is why, in my opinion, they can’t be stopped, only slowed down…

but whatever if it makes you feel better call me a moron/idiot/naiive ass motherfucker, I’m just trying to fill everyone in on how anonymous tends to function in general

And anyone can be tracked down, tried, and made an example of.

82 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:32:38am

re: #71 SanFranciscoZionist

What exactly do they want BofA to do? Or is this just a random attack for fun?

there must be some sexual aspect to the hack

83 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:32:44am

re: #81 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And anyone can be tracked down, tried, and made an example of.

Anyone can, but everyone can’t.

84 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:33:00am

re: #74 Gus 802

Sounds like a nebulous religion. Oh that’s right. They’re a cult.

It’s got none of the usual sociological characteristics of a cult other than an irrational devotion to platitudes.

85 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:33:22am

re: #78 000G

That’s one of the things that demonstrates most obviously why the average Anonymous is such a dunce: LOIC does not provide anonimity, and anonimity on the web at large is a very different thing from 4chan, mostly just available in rather obscure fractions like Tor and Freenet.

You’re not anonymous on tor, either. Just more difficult to track. Not impossible.

86 Kragar  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:33:54am

re: #83 Fozzie Bear

Anyone can, but everyone can’t.

You can’t really stop a mob either, but you can break them up.

87 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:34:26am

re: #82 albusteve

there must be some sexual aspect to the hack

There is a joke in there.

Hormonal young men, beer, no girl will look at them … .

88 brookly red  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:34:41am
Youtube Video
89 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:34:56am

re: #86 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

You can’t really stop a mob either, but you can break them up.

All you can do is arrest people, which won’t have much of an effect. This mob can’t exactly be dispersed like a physical mob.

90 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:35:10am

re: #86 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

You can’t really stop a mob either, but you can break them up.

I am a mob of ONE!….
be cool if Charles could pop one or all of the leaderless Sparts

91 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:35:13am

re: #72 ihateronpaul

yes, I’m aware that every participant in an internet attack risks being caught. The point of anonymous is that if you catch those people, others will take their place with better spoofing and encryption than before

And that’s why I said you’re being really really naive.

All it will take will be for a few of these ‘anonymous’ leaders to be caught, made examples of, and sent to prison, and suddenly the noble internet payback warriors will start losing their enthusiasm.

92 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:35:26am

re: #62 jaunte

From Killgore’s link upthread:

The question, as I have already asked it before, is whether arresting and putting to trial some of the offenders is going to significantly change the behaviour of the movement.

93 brookly red  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:35:34am

re: #86 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

You can’t really stop a mob either, but you can break them up.

sure you can… it’s not pretty.

94 William of Orange  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:35:40am

All hacking aside; the Bank of America is of course a bunch of fraudsters. Via the Crooks and Liars site comes this chilling story.


Bank Of America’s Christmas Present: Foreclose Even Though Not A Payment Missed

The moral to the story below is if you are put into a “loan modification” your regular payments will not be applied, late fees will occur, your credit will be ruined because you are reported as NOT making your payments when in a modification, and once you sent in your trail payments, they deny you and foreclose.

The part that gets me the most is all those trial payments, even if you made 10 or more of them, are gone, not credited to your account!


I would almost encourage hacking reading this, weren’t it illegal. But stories like this make your blood boil. There’s your BoA Christmas spirit. All a bunch of Scrroges!!!

95 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:36:07am

re: #73 000G

Well, it’s a movement, not an organization.

lol

96 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:36:20am

re: #92 000G

The question, as I have already asked it before, is whether arresting and putting to trial some of the offenders is going to significantly change the behaviour of the movement.

Of course, it won’t.

97 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:36:24am

re: #84 000G

It’s got none of the usual sociological characteristics of a cult other than an irrational devotion to platitudes.

Works for me.

a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad

Right now their devotion is to Julian “Sweden is teh Feminist Saudi Arabia” Assange.

Anonymous Cult ©

98 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:37:13am

re: #92 000G

The question, as I have already asked it before, is whether arresting and putting to trial some of the offenders is going to significantly change the behaviour of the movement.

Of course it will — unless you believe these are some new breed of human, mutated by playing too much Call of Duty into strange ghost like beings with no physical presence.

99 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:37:17am

re: #92 000G

The question, as I have already asked it before, is whether arresting and putting to trial some of the offenders is going to significantly change the behaviour of the movement.

Once they are brought of the basement and have to sit in a conference room with some very serious people or a court room with even more serious people, one or two of them with guns, they might get a dose of reality that they didn’t know existed.

100 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:38:34am

re: #98 Charles

Of course it will — unless you believe these are some new breed of human, mutated by playing too much Call of Duty into strange ghost like beings with no physical presence.

Of course they have physical presence, but they don’t have much of a cultural memory. This is a perpetually rotating mob, comprised of mostly teenagers and college students.

101 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:38:45am

re: #85 Charles

You’re not anonymous on tor, either. Just more difficult to track. Not impossible.

True. For a lot of practical purposes that’s merely theoretical, though.

102 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:38:59am

re: #92 000G

The question, as I have already asked it before, is whether arresting and putting to trial some of the offenders is going to significantly change the behaviour of the movement.

doesn’t matter…it has to be done

103 jaunte  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:39:47am

re: #100 Fozzie Bear

They can probably all get along fine without internet access.

104 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:40:20am

re: #98 Charles

Of course it will — unless you believe these are some new breed of human, mutated by playing too much Call of Duty into strange ghost like beings with no physical presence.

I am not saying that the individuals will not be affected. I am asking whether the aggregated actions will be affected. I don’t think it would neccessarily be the case if the number of individuals participating is high enough in relations to those getting aprehended.

105 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:40:23am

re: #92 000G

The question, as I have already asked it before, is whether arresting and putting to trial some of the offenders is going to significantly change the behaviour of the movement.

Anarchy!
Why stop there?

106 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:40:38am

re: #93 brookly red

sure you can… it’s not pretty.

A mounted cop told me once that the big city’s keep horses because they are the best a breaking up riots. People on foot are afraid of horses.

I had a fleeting vision of Charles on a Painted Mustang. teehee

107 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:40:41am

re: #97 Gus 802

Works for me.

Okay.

108 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:41:00am

re: #101 000G

True. For a lot of practical purposes that’s merely theoretical, though.

Sure, it’s theoretical until the network is used to do major damage to an organization with very deep pockets like BofA.

Right now, anon is more annoying than anything. Their LOIC botnet is a very weak tool, compared to the criminal botnets that exist out there.

109 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:41:15am

re: #103 jaunte

They can probably all get along fine without internet access.

give em carpet squares and they will be content

110 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:41:19am

re: #95 Killgore Trout

lol

It is, according to text books definition of the terms “organization” and “movement”. You can look it up in pretty much any standard sociological literature.

111 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:41:41am

re: #106 ggt

A mounted cop told me once that the big city’s keep horses because they are the best a breaking up riots. People on foot are afraid of horses.

I had a fleeting vision of Charles on a Painted Mustang. teehee

Horses are also excellent for patrolling big parks. San Francisco would not be able to keep as strong a police presence in Golden Gate Park without the mounted patrols.

112 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:41:50am

“Net Neutrality” notwithstanding, can ISP’s revoke the access of subscribers who are participating in these illegal activities?

I seem to recall, years ago, Comcast threatening to terminate the accounts of subscribers who were reported as “pirating” by the RIAA and MPAA.

113 SpaceJesus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:42:34am

Oh hey /b/, why don’t you leave lgf alone and go back to being the unfunny version of FYAD that you are.

114 brookly red  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:42:43am

re: #106 ggt

A mounted cop told me once that the big city’s keep horses because they are the best a breaking up riots. People on foot are afraid of horses.

I had a fleeting vision of Charles on a Painted Mustang. teehee

getting kicked by a 2,000 pound critter can ruin your day…

115 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:42:52am

OKay, I am going to switch from the laptop to the Kindle version of LGF. It may be a while before I post again.

Wish me luck.

116 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:43:02am

re: #106 ggt

A mounted cop told me once that the big city’s keep horses because they are the best a breaking up riots. People on foot are afraid of horses.

I had a fleeting vision of Charles on a Painted Mustang. teehee

so did I….
[Link: www.boston.com…]

117 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:43:29am

re: #106 ggt

A mounted cop told me once that the big city’s keep horses because they are the best a breaking up riots. People on foot are afraid of horses.

I had a fleeting vision of Charles on a Painted Mustang. teehee

This painted Mustang? Teehee.

118 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:43:33am

re: #108 Charles

Sure, it’s theoretical until the network is used to do major damage to an organization with very deep pockets like BofA.

Right now, anon is more annoying than anything. Their LOIC botnet is a very weak tool, compared to the criminal botnets that exist out there.

It certainly is going to be interesting to see what BofA’s reaction is going to be, that much I will grant. I don’t think the backlash is entirely predictable at this point.

119 the yankee  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:43:42am

I imagine part of the reason they are attacking bank of america is because they want freedom of speech or something. But then they can’t attack another site for criticizing them. Kind of reminds me of the also leaderless (sarc tag) Tea bagger movement.

120 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:43:48am

re: #114 brookly red

getting kicked by a 2,000 pound critter can ruin your day…

I think Mustangs are a little lighter, but MUCH more agile. I certainly wouldn’t want to be within 100 yards of an unhappy one, or one with an able and pissed-off rider.

121 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:44:24am

re: #110 000G

It is, according to text books definition of the terms “organization” and “movement”. You can look it up in pretty much any standard sociological literature.

split finer than a frog hair….does it make a difference what handle you put on them?

122 FemNaziBitch  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:44:35am

re: #117 Alouette

This painted Mustang? Teehee.

Now that one I’d like to be in.

I’m really leaving the laptop now.

123 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:45:45am

re: #117 Alouette

This painted Mustang? Teehee.

mines faster…..

124 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:45:55am

re: #121 albusteve

split finer than a frog hair…does it make a difference what handle you put on them?


It does if you want to get a handle of the feasibility of dissuading/controlling them.

125 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:46:52am

re: #121 albusteve

split finer than a frog hair…does it make a difference what handle you put on them?

I argued in earlier threads that it might make a difference when it comes to legal charges that have to do with breaking laws that depend on the offender being a member of some organization (racketeering laws and such). It certainly would not change anything about them getting charged with other felonies (in Germany it would be “computer sabotage”) but it might make a difference in additional charges, that was what I was getting at.

126 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:46:56am

I guess we shouldn’t target organized crime rings.
I mean, arresting it’s members does nothing to dissuade/stop the organization.
Just leave them be.
9_9

127 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:47:02am

re: #110 000G

It is, according to text books definition of the terms “organization” and “movement”. You can look it up in pretty much any standard sociological literature.

Your delusions about the mythical nature of Anon make no difference in the real world. It’s a fiction that only exists in your mind.

128 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:47:02am

re: #110 000G

It is, according to text books definition of the terms “organization” and “movement”. You can look it up in pretty much any standard sociological literature.

I would think any “movement” would have to develop some sort of “organization” at some point or it would collapse on itself and cease to exist.
re: #92 000G

The question, as I have already asked it before, is whether arresting and putting to trial some of the offenders is going to significantly change the behaviour of the movement.

Maybe not, and then you keep on arresting and charging until the organized behavior of the “movement” has changed. Otherwise, what - just leave ‘em be to wreak havoc?

129 brookly red  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:48:07am

re: #120 ggt

I think Mustangs are a little lighter, but MUCH more agile. I certainly wouldn’t want to be within 100 yards of an unhappy one, or one with an able and pissed-off rider.

folks also get real discouraged around K9s too…

130 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:48:15am

re: #127 Killgore Trout

Your delusions about the mythical nature of Anon make no difference in the real world. It’s a fiction that only exists in your mind.

Okay.

If you are ready to back up your claims of my “delusions about the mythical nature of Anon” or what you claim to be the case in “the real world”, let me know.

131 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:49:45am

re: #120 ggt

I think Mustangs are a little lighter, but MUCH more agile. I certainly wouldn’t want to be within 100 yards of an unhappy one, or one with an able and pissed-off rider.

the new Mustangs are very hefty for their size….maybe 3400lbs….way heavier than the originals, that’s a mark against them as opposed to the other retros

132 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:50:22am

re: #130 000G

Okay.

If you are ready to back up your claims of my “delusions about the mythical nature of Anon” or what you claim to be the case in “the real world”, let me know.

Simple.
Anon is going down.
Nothing will stop the hammer that’s about to fall on their foolish heads.
The internet was not built with anonymity in mind.

133 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:50:34am

re: #128 reine.de.tout

I would think any “movement” would have to develop some sort of “organization” at some point or it would collapse on itself and cease to exist.

A movement consists of several organizations and associated individuals. You could argue that any temporary, spontaneous get-together of Anonymous goons is an organization.

Maybe not, and then you keep on arresting and charging until the organized behavior of the “movement” has changed. Otherwise, what - just leave ‘em be to wreak havoc?

I am not so much concerned with what should be done but rather with what can be done. For all practical purposes, I think a certain level of havoc is inevitable, given the current conditions of the internet.

134 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:50:54am

I worked with a women who decided she wanted to run for Governor.
So she did. Had a lot of support at that point.

And then she decided she wanted it all to be a “grassroots movement”; nothing organized, no organized fund-raising, etc.

By the time election time came around, no one had a clue who she was.

Movements do not move of their own volution - they need organization and someone running things.

135 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:50:57am

re: #124 Fozzie Bear

It does if you want to get a handle of the feasibility of dissuading/controlling them.

so what do you call them? and just how does that affect their take down?

136 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:51:39am

re: #132 Varek Raith

Simple.
Anon is going down.
Nothing will stop the hammer that’s about to fall on their foolish heads.
The internet was not built with anonymity in mind.

Well, MPAA and RIAA were not able to stop filesharing, either.

Right now, the outcome of this is a bet, and not a safe one. I certainly have not seen a convincing argument predicting the future of this in detail.

137 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:51:50am

re: #134 reine.de.tout

I worked with a women who decided she wanted to run for Governor.
So she did. Had a lot of support at that point.

And then she decided she wanted it all to be a “grassroots movement”; nothing organized, no organized fund-raising, etc.

By the time election time came around, no one had a clue who she was.

Movements do not move of their own volution - they need organization and someone running things.

If nobody is in charge, nothing gets done.

138 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:51:57am

re: #125 000G

I argued in earlier threads that it might make a difference when it comes to legal charges that have to do with breaking laws that depend on the offender being a member of some organization (racketeering laws and such). It certainly would not change anything about them getting charged with other felonies (in Germany it would be “computer sabotage”) but it might make a difference in additional charges, that was what I was getting at.


RICCO would take care of itself, whatever they are called

139 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:52:00am

re: #134 reine.de.tout

I worked with a womenwoman who decided she wanted to run for Governor.
So she did. Had a lot of support at that point.

And then she decided she wanted it all to be a “grassroots movement”; nothing organized, no organized fund-raising, etc.

By the time election time came around, no one had a clue who she was.

Movements do not move of their own volutionvolition - they need organization and someone running things.


gah. typing too fast.

140 jaunte  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:52:18am

re: #128 reine.de.tout

People who enjoy throwing a little anonymous sand in the gears (with no penalty) will keep doing it until they get tired of it, or their time is taken up by a girlfriend. As long as it doesn’t become a huge nuisance for companies like BofA they probably won’t spend a lot to fight it, but a few arrests and prosecutions should dampen the enthusiasm.

141 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:52:56am

re: #134 reine.de.tout

I worked with a women who decided she wanted to run for Governor.
So she did. Had a lot of support at that point.

And then she decided she wanted it all to be a “grassroots movement”; nothing organized, no organized fund-raising, etc.

By the time election time came around, no one had a clue who she was.

Movements do not move of their own volution - they need organization and someone running things.

This is true. It is also true, though, that a movement is larger than any single organization within it.

142 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:52:57am

re: #137 Alouette

If nobody is in charge, nothing gets done.


Please relay that to my wife……

143 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:53:12am

re: #136 000G

Well, MPAA and RIAA were not able to stop filesharing, either.

Right now, the outcome of this is a bet, and not a safe one. I certainly have not seen a convincing argument predicting the future of this in detail.

Bad analogy.
Unless the pirated material is traceable.
The LOIC that anon uses is.

144 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:53:16am

So, to recap:

Bank of America cancels Wikileaks’ account.

This non-organized group of ghost like beings decides to take revenge for what they see as an attempt to stifle Julian Assange’s free speech, by attacking the BofA website.

I criticize this action publicly, and the ghosts decide to attack LGF too.

Questions:

Does my free speech matter too?

In what way is this different from a KKK lynch mob?

145 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:53:31am

re: #135 albusteve

so what do you call them? and just how does that affect their take down?

You can’t “take down” anon without making anonymity impossible.
re: #137 Alouette

If nobody is in charge, nothing gets done.

Which is of course the case with anon. Hysterics notwithstanding, anon has caused negligible damage.

146 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:53:54am

re: #143 Varek Raith

Bad analogy.
Unless the pirated material is traceable.
The LOIC that anon uses is.

File-sharing that is traceable is still going on, I would argue that it makes up the majority of it. Torrenting is still huge.

147 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:54:01am

re: #141 000G

This is true. It is also true, though, that a movement is larger than any single organization within it.

For a brief time ONLY.

Then it dies for lack of - organization.

148 shutdown  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:55:29am

Charles - this is the best analogy to “anon” attacks I have found (aside from the fact that I am a big fan of Iain M. Banks)
[Link: 2020science.org…]

149 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:55:29am

re: #144 Charles

So, to recap:

Bank of America cancels Wikileaks’ account.

This non-organized group of ghost like beings decides to take revenge for what they see as an attempt to stifle Julian Assange’s free speech, by attacking the BofA website.

I criticize this action publicly, and the ghosts decide to attack LGF too.

Questions:

Does my free speech matter too?

This is a good argument that I think Richard Stallman missed.

In what way is this different from a KKK lynch mob?

Uhm… they have not killed anybody, physically?

150 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:55:31am

re: #145 Fozzie Bear

You can’t “take down” anon without making anonymity impossible.
re: #137 Alouette

Which is of course the case with anon. Hysterics notwithstanding, anon has caused negligible damage.

not germain….what do you call them and how does it make any difference in the foreseeable future?

151 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:55:38am

re: #144 Charles

In what way is this different from a KKK lynch mob?

A: nobody’s being actually harmed. But the essential ingredients are identical. A masked mob of unaccountable people acting in concert to commit crimes and intimidate those who criticize.

152 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:56:19am

re: #147 reine.de.tout

For a brief time ONLY.

Then it dies for lack of - organization.

My point was that you cannot, by definition, reduce a movement to any single organization.

153 brookly red  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:57:00am

re: #152 000G

My point was that you cannot, by definition, reduce a movement to any single organization.

care for some tea?

154 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:57:03am

defendants are clinically disorganized….case dismissed!

155 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:57:07am

re: #150 albusteve

not germain…what do you call them and how does it make any difference in the foreseeable future?

It doesn’t make any difference, because anon is mostly harmless.

156 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:57:13am

re: #146 000G

File-sharing that is traceable is still going on, I would argue that it makes up the majority of it. Torrenting is still huge.

[Link: www.limewire.com…]

157 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:57:15am

re: #145 Fozzie Bear

You can’t “take down” anon without making anonymity impossible.
re: #137 Alouette

Which is of course the case with anon. Hysterics notwithstanding, anon has caused negligible damage.

Possibly.

I know that I apparently registered at some point at one of the Gawker sites.
So I had to go change ALL my damned passwords, ‘cause I couldn’t remember what i used there.

And then my internet service provider got word that one of my e-mail accounts was compromised, and THEY re-set my already re-set password, called me and I had to reset it again.

Negligible damage in your world = unnecessary grief in my world, plus time I had to take away from other things to go through all these exercises. And that was MY time to do with what I wanted, disrupted and coopted by someone else deciding it would be oh so much fun to screw around with people.

Minimize it all you want -

158 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:58:26am

re: #155 Fozzie Bear

It doesn’t make any difference, because anon is mostly harmless.

so, calling them a mob, for the moment, is practical, if not accurate

159 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:58:41am

re: #157 reine.de.tout

Indeed. I had to change my login information there too. It took me approximately 30 seconds. As I said, they have no real power at anon, save the effects of successfully trolling people into convincing themselves that anon is a threat.

160 shutdown  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:58:42am

“Mommy, I don’t want to have another conversation about occasionally organized scriptkiddies.”

“Shut up and post.”

161 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:59:06am

re: #158 albusteve

so, calling them a mob, for the moment, is practical, if not accurate

It is accurate.

162 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:59:50am

re: #159 Fozzie Bear

Indeed. I had to change my login information there too. It took me approximately 30 seconds. As I said, they have no real power at anon, save the effects of successfully trolling people into convincing themselves that anon is a threat.

What they are doing is still illegal and should be punished.

163 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:59:54am

re: #144 Charles

So, to recap:

Bank of America cancels Wikileaks’ account.

This non-organized group of ghost like beings decides to take revenge for what they see as an attempt to stifle Julian Assange’s free speech, by attacking the BofA website.

I criticize this action publicly, and the ghosts decide to attack LGF too.

Questions:

Does my free speech matter too?

In what way is this different from a KKK lynch mob?

AFAIK, they haven’t killed anyone, no one is actually scared of them, and they don’t actually control whole regions of the country through a reign of terror.

164 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:00:47pm

Heh:

5 irc operators members of #anonymous have been arrested in USA, UK, Germany, Netherlands, Sweden

[Link: twitter.com…]

165 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:00:49pm

re: #162 Varek Raith

What they are doing is still illegal and should be punished.

Sure it is. And it will be. And it will have negligible effect, because you aren’t talking about an organized movement, assertions of the misinformed aside.

166 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:01:01pm

It’s rather self evident that the Confederacy of Anonymous is doing their bidding for Julian Assange.

167 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:01:16pm

re: #151 Charles

A: nobody’s being actually harmed. But the essential ingredients are identical. A masked mob of unaccountable people acting in concert to commit crimes and intimidate those who criticize.

Another distinction: the KKK enforced a clearly understood social order. These guys seem to mostly exist to poke the established order with a stick.

168 brookly red  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:01:22pm

re: #162 Varek Raith

What they are doing is still illegal and should be punished.

/let them turn on Google… there will be weeping & gnashing of teeth.

169 dmon  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:01:44pm

re: #164 000G

Hmmmmm it appears that BofA was ready for them

170 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:01:55pm

re: #163 SanFranciscoZionist

AFAIK, they haven’t killed anyone, no one is actually scared of them, and they don’t actually control whole regions of the country through a reign of terror.

They are using Teh Interwebs to wreak some kinda havoc. Who pays their ISP subscription and aren’t they violating TOS contracts?

171 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:02:07pm

re: #159 Fozzie Bear

Indeed. I had to change my login information there too. It took me approximately 30 seconds. As I said, they have no real power at anon, save the effects of successfully trolling people into convincing themselves that anon is a threat.

you cannot know more than what you read…you are making an assumption

172 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:02:15pm

re: #159 Fozzie Bear

Indeed. I had to change my login information there too. It took me approximately 30 seconds. As I said, they have no real power at anon, save the effects of successfully trolling people into convincing themselves that anon is a threat.

I had to change my passwords EVERYWHERE, since I could not recall which combination of email/passwords I had used there. It took me much longer than 30 seconds.

Besides which, even if it had been 30 seconds - it was MY 30 seconds. Not theirs.

173 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:02:24pm

re: #165 Fozzie Bear

Sure it is. And it will be. And it will have negligible effect, because you aren’t talking about an organized movement, assertions of the misinformed aside.

So what?
Punishing any other crime has a negligible effect on preventing others from doing the same.
ANARCHY!

174 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:02:35pm

re: #166 Gus 802

It’s rather self evident that the Confederacy of Anonymous is doing their bidding for Julian Assange.

What did BofA do to Julian Assange? (I can’t keep track at this point.)

175 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:03:03pm

re: #170 Alouette

They are using Teh Interwebs to wreak some kinda havoc. Who pays their ISP subscription and aren’t they violating TOS contracts?

No argument, just responding to why they’re not exactly the KKK.

176 shutdown  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:03:16pm

“anon” reminds me of those invisible folks in the most recent Narnia film. Thay are really scary until they are unmasked as one-legged dwarves standing on each others’ shoulders.

177 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:03:17pm

re: #174 SanFranciscoZionist

What did BofA do to Julian Assange? (I can’t keep track at this point.)

Canceled the Wikileaks account.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

178 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:03:19pm

re: #174 SanFranciscoZionist

What did BofA do to Julian Assange? (I can’t keep track at this point.)

They cancelled all payment services to WikiLeaks.

179 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:03:41pm

re: #174 SanFranciscoZionist

What did BofA do to Julian Assange? (I can’t keep track at this point.)

Same thing as Visa and Paypal: they canceled his account for TOS violations.

180 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:03:51pm

re: #173 Varek Raith

So what?
Punishing any other crime has a negligible effect on preventing others from doing the same.
ANARCHY!

There are people here making assertions contrary to what you are saying. I was responding to those who seem to think there is a singular organized leadership which, if eliminated, would change the character of the actions of anon.

181 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:04:06pm

re: #179 Alouette

Same thing as Visa and Paypal: they canceled his account for TOS violations.

And I guess they’re easier to attack than Interpol.

182 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:04:18pm

re: #165 Fozzie Bear

Sure it is. And it will be. And it will have negligible effect, because you aren’t talking about an organized movement, assertions of the misinformed aside.

how do you know the degree of organization?….you don’t…and further you have no idea what effect busting some of these hackers will have

183 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:04:35pm

re: #177 Gus 802

Canceled the Wikileaks account.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

I don’t think it was just an account that they might have had. Personally, I did not even read about an account, just that they would not process any payments that they believed were intended for WikiLeaks, thus also no payments for the Wau Holland Foundation, AFAIK.

184 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:04:56pm

What will be anon’s next target? All teh womyns in Sweden?

185 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:04:59pm

re: #182 albusteve

how do you know the degree of organization?…you don’t…and further you have no idea what effect busting some of these hackers will have

I know how easy it would be to hijack that position of leadership. That’s all I need to know.

186 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:05:30pm

re: #183 000G

I don’t think it was just an account that they might have had. Personally, I did not even read about an account, just that they would not process any payments that they believed were intended for WikiLeaks, thus also no payments for the Wau Holland Foundation, AFAIK.

I’m curious. Have you ever participated in any Anonymous activities?

187 Kragar  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:05:34pm

Negligible physical damage = Billions of dollars in security upgrades, restoring systems, user training, etc.

188 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:05:34pm

re: #185 Fozzie Bear

I know how easy it would be to hijack that position of leadership. That’s all I need to know.

How do you know this?

189 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:05:36pm

re: #167 SanFranciscoZionist

Er, well, I wasn’t trying to say it’s exactly like a KKK lynch mob; obviously it’s not. But the analogy of a lynch mob pretty closely describes these attacks.

And when they direct this crap at LGF, it can very definitely have a big impact on the site. This isn’t Visa or BofA here, it’s a small website and even a weak tool like LOIC can do real damage if they keep it up for long enough.

As far as I’m concerned, the people who did this are criminals who attacked my livelihood.

190 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:06:14pm

re: #180 Fozzie Bear

There are people here making assertions contrary to what you are saying. I was responding to those who seem to think there is a singular organized leadership which, if eliminated, would change the character of the actions of anon.

who was that?….I missed it

191 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:06:26pm

re: #188 reine.de.tout

How do you know this?

Because I have seen the channels through which they organize. This information is known to tens of millions of people, and anyone who cares to spend 10 minutes with google.

192 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:06:44pm

re: #191 Fozzie Bear

It’s not exactly a secret.

193 researchok  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:06:58pm

re: #186 Gus 802

I’m curious. Have you ever participated in any Anonymous activities?

tick tick tick tick tick tick…

194 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:07:15pm

re: #186 Gus 802

I’m curious. Have you ever participated in any Anonymous activities?

What do you mean when you say “Anonymous activities”?

195 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:07:20pm

re: #187 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Negligible physical damage = Billions of dollars in security upgrades, restoring systems, user training, etc.

30 seconds x several million etc

196 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:07:29pm

re: #189 Charles


As far as I’m concerned, the people who did this are criminals who attacked my livelihood.

Oh, I can agree wholeheartedly with that. They’re vandals, and apparently pretty thin-skinned ones.

197 Kragar  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:07:39pm

re: #186 Gus 802

I’m curious. Have you ever participated in any Anonymous activities?

Well, I don’t remember her name, does that count?

198 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:07:52pm

re: #191 Fozzie Bear

Because I have seen the channels through which they organize. This information is known to tens of millions of people, and anyone who cares to spend 10 minutes with google.

Why would most of us want to waste 10 minutes of their time on that?

I might 10 minutes of time on things I want to take part in.
But not to find out how to go about doing something I have no interest in

199 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:09:09pm

re: #191 Fozzie Bear

Because I have seen the channels through which they organize. This information is known to tens of millions of people, and anyone who cares to spend 10 minutes with google.

pretty weak

200 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:09:30pm

re: #198 reine.de.tout

Why would most of us want to waste 10 minutes of their time on that?

I might 10 minutes of time on things I want to take part in.
But not to find out how to go about doing something I have no interest in

Well, this is why it isn’t surprising to me that so many people misunderstand what anon is. That, and the nature of the sites that they congregate at is repellent to most people.

201 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:09:32pm

re: #194 000G

What do you mean when you say “Anonymous activities”?

Have you ever participated in any Anonymous activities. That is participated in any mass DDOS attacks as promoted by Anonymous websites, Tweets, IRC directives, etc.

202 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:10:02pm

re: #201 Gus 802

Have you ever participated in any Anonymous activities. That is participated in any mass DDOS attacks as promoted by Anonymous websites, Tweets, IRC directives, etc.

You just defined yourself out of 99% of anonymous’ activities.

203 shutdown  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:10:07pm

re: #199 albusteve

pretty weak

My God—it’s full of stars

204 ihateronpaul  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:10:15pm

re: #191 Fozzie Bear

Because I have seen the channels through which they organize. This information is known to tens of millions of people, and anyone who cares to spend 10 minutes with google.

Secret info, watch out guys!

/

205 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:10:25pm

re: #201 Gus 802

Have you ever participated in any Anonymous activities. That is participated in any mass DDOS attacks as promoted by Anonymous websites, Tweets, IRC directives, etc.

Fozzie also seems to know a heck of a lot about how this works.

206 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:10:55pm

re: #201 Gus 802

Have you ever participated in any Anonymous activities. That is participated in any mass DDOS attacks as promoted by Anonymous websites, Tweets, IRC directives, etc.

No, I have not participated in any DDoS or DoS attacks (the latter is what Anonymous does, the former requires bot nets which Anonymous is too mindless for). I still do not know what you mean by “Anonymous activities”, though.

207 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:10:57pm

re: #205 reine.de.tout

Fozzie also seems to know a heck of a lot about how this works.

Because there isn’t much to know. And it’s obvious.

208 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:10:59pm

re: #202 Fozzie Bear

You just defined yourself out of 99% of anonymous’ activities.

You really believe that? You mean there are no Anonymous IRC channels, Twitter accounts or websites?

209 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:11:43pm

Now there are no “Anonymous activities.”

Rolls eyes.

210 brookly red  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:11:57pm

re: #205 reine.de.tout

Fozzie also seems to know a heck of a lot about how this works.

summon the inquisitors… call upon the judges… pass me a sandwich.

211 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:11:58pm

re: #208 Gus 802

You really believe that? You mean there are no Anonymous IRC channels, Twitter accounts or websites?

No, what I meant to imply is that what you just defined is a very small part of what anonymous is. (I.e., the disgruntled script kiddie subset)

212 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:12:17pm

re: #208 Gus 802

You really believe that? You mean there are no Anonymous IRC channels, Twitter accounts or websites?

It seems there must be
See:

re: #40 Charles

Right when the attack started, this guy followed me on Twitter — one of the BofA attackers:

[Link: twitter.com…]

213 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:12:24pm

re: #209 Gus 802

Now there are no “Anonymous activities.”

Rolls eyes.

If you cared to explain, maybe I would understand. I am not playing dumb here.

214 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:12:27pm

re: #203 imp_62

My God—it’s full of stars

DANCE!

215 shutdown  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:12:27pm

re: #205 reine.de.tout

Fozzie also seems to know a heck of a lot about how this works.

Because it’s basic internet flash mob stuff. If you know which chatrooms to frequent, you find out what the next after-school scriptkiddie activity is and you either participate, or not. About as organized as a sock full of gerbils.

216 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:13:14pm

My LOIC is better than Anon’s LOIC.

Youtube Video
217 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:13:50pm

re: #209 Gus 802

Now there are no “Anonymous activities.”

Rolls eyes.

then you can drop the Shirley gig for now

218 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:15:24pm

re: #215 imp_62

Because it’s basic internet flash mob stuff. If you know which chatrooms to frequent, you find out what the next after-school scriptkiddie activity is and you either participate, or not. About as organized as a sock full of gerbils.

LSU has a flash rave.
It’s scheduled for when finals are over.

A scheduled flash mob.

Hm. Sounds organized in some way.

219 shutdown  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:15:30pm

I have successfully joined underwear, small rodents, and the internet in one post. I am going to die happy.

220 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:15:35pm

re: #217 albusteve

then you can drop the Shirley gig for now

I give up. This is like debating with magicians that want you to believe their magic is real. The whole “movement” is one bizarre fucked up ideology created by a bunch of weirdos with too much time on their hands.

221 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:16:16pm

re: #220 Gus 802

I give up. This is like debating with magicians that want you to believe their magic is real. The whole “movement” is one bizarre fucked up ideology created by a bunch of weirdos with too much time on their hands.

Yes, it is. Only without a coherent ideology.

222 shutdown  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:16:20pm

re: #218 reine.de.tout

flash mobs do not imply lack of organization, simply a lack of planning.

223 jaunte  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:16:21pm

re: #203 imp_62

My God—it’s full of stars

No stars, just a shapeless ever changing mob of will-o-wispiness.

224 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:16:38pm

re: #218 reine.de.tout

LSU has a flash rave.
It’s scheduled for when finals are over.

A scheduled flash mob.

Hm. Sounds organized in some way.

My favorite flash-mob-esque activity.

225 brookly red  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:16:59pm

re: #219 imp_62

I have successfully joined underwear, small rodents, and the internet in one post. I am going to die happy.

socks don’t count as underwear… sorry.

226 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:17:00pm

re: #218 reine.de.tout

LSU has a flash rave.
It’s scheduled for when finals are over.

A scheduled flash mob.

Hm. Sounds organized in some way.

And the point of that is this:

SOMEBODY has to get the ball rolling; has to set up the time, and a place (or several places) and give the order to “GO”. That, is organization. And maybe it’s one person pulling together a bunch of other groups, loosely or tightly organized. But things do not happen in a vacuum.

227 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:17:34pm

re: #222 imp_62

flash mobs do not imply lack of organization, simply a lack of planning.

Well.
Scheduling, to me, implies both organization AND planning.
Good grief.

228 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:17:37pm

re: #220 Gus 802

I give up. This is like debating with magicians that want you to believe their magic is real. The whole “movement” is one bizarre fucked up ideology created by a bunch of weirdos with too much time on their hands.

The movement hails a certain ideology. It’s not identical.

“Movement” can be a neutral term, btw. And that’s how I am using it. It’s certainly not a propaganda term of praise. Pointing out a communist movement, for instance, is not synonymous with affirming it.

229 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:17:58pm

re: #221 Fozzie Bear

Yes, it is. Only without a coherent ideology.

Yeah. There’s no ideology here is there. I mean, they’re only doing this for Wikileaks and Julian Assange. And the latter don’t have any political goals either. Yep, no coherent ideology. I keep forgetting that they’re doing it for the “lulz.”

230 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:18:13pm

re: #224 SanFranciscoZionist

My favorite flash-mob-esque activity.

lol

231 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:18:45pm

It’s like a New Age movement.

232 brookly red  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:18:46pm

re: #227 reine.de.tout

Well.
Scheduling, to me, implies both organization AND planning.
Good grief.

then you have never experienced New Jersey Transit…

233 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:18:59pm

Homeopathy.

234 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:19:54pm

re: #226 reine.de.tout

And the point of that is this:

SOMEBODY has to get the ball rolling; has to set up the time, and a place (or several places) and give the order to “GO”. That, is organization. And maybe it’s one person pulling together a bunch of other groups, loosely or tightly organized. But things do not happen in a vacuum.

I don’t think that things happened in a vacuum… only that the events and actions in questions cannot be pinned down to any one single organization. Emergence is not magic.

235 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:20:23pm

re: #220 Gus 802

I give up. This is like debating with magicians that want you to believe their magic is real. The whole “movement” is one bizarre fucked up ideology created by a bunch of weirdos with too much time on their hands.

you said ‘movement!’…..you’re WRONG!

236 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:20:25pm

re: #226 reine.de.tout

And the point of that is this:

SOMEBODY has to get the ball rolling; has to set up the time, and a place (or several places) and give the order to “GO”. That, is organization. And maybe it’s one person pulling together a bunch of other groups, loosely or tightly organized. But things do not happen in a vacuum.

It’s not a vacuum. It’s a very very very large group of people, any one of whom can say anything at any time, and they all go by the same name. It’s stupid easy to start trends in that environment, with the caveat that they burn out as fast as they start.

re: #229 Gus 802

Yeah. There’s no ideology here is there. I mean, they’re only doing this for Wikileaks and Julian Assange. And the latter don’t have any political goals either. Yep, no coherent ideology. I keep forgetting that they’re doing it for the “lulz.”

The people within anon freaking out over the Assange thing are a very small slice of the whole. So you can ascribe a coherent ideology to those within anon who share that ideology, but that really says nearly nothing about anon as a whole, any more than saying that all the short people in a crowd tend to be shorter than average.

237 shutdown  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:20:32pm

re: #227 reine.de.tout

Youtube Video
238 ihateronpaul  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:21:01pm

the whole point of flash mobs is that they are designed to APPEAR spontaneous, but are actually organized. next ridiculously over-discussed topic that all participants refuse to google, GO!

239 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:21:05pm

re: #231 Gus 802

It’s like a New Age movement.

The First Church of What’s Happening Now.

240 shutdown  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:21:06pm

re: #232 brookly red

then you have never experienced New Jersey Transit…

lmao. or the LIRR…

241 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:21:17pm

re: #232 brookly red

then you have never experienced New Jersey Transit…

True.

242 shutdown  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:21:31pm

re: #225 brookly red

socks don’t count as underwear… sorry.

Grinch.

243 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:21:40pm

re: #235 albusteve

you said ‘movement!’…you’re WRONG!

Anon is so magical and new there aren’t even words to describe it yet.

244 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:21:48pm

re: #236 Fozzie Bear

re: #229 Gus 802

The people within anon freaking out over the Assange thing are a very small slice of the whole. So you can ascribe a coherent ideology to those within anon who share that ideology, but that really says nearly nothing about anon as a whole, any more than saying that all the short people in a crowd tend to be shorter than average.

Yes. And you apply that same logic with Republicans and conservatives?

245 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:22:12pm

re: #228 000G

The movement hails a certain ideology. It’s not identical.

“Movement” can be a neutral term, btw. And that’s how I am using it. It’s certainly not a propaganda term of praise. Pointing out a communist movement, for instance, is not synonymous with affirming it.

can a communist bowel movement be affirmed?

246 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:22:37pm

re: #244 Gus 802

Yes. And you apply that same logic with Republicans and conservatives?

Care to raise any other random unrelated red herrings?

247 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:22:42pm

re: #243 Killgore Trout

Anon is so magical and new there aren’t even words to describe it yet.

Olm!

248 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:23:22pm

re: #243 Killgore Trout

Anon is so magical and new there aren’t even words to describe it yet.

“A bunch of assholes”

I just used words to describe it.

249 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:23:54pm

re: #243 Killgore Trout

Anon is so magical and new there aren’t even words to describe it yet.

it deserves it’s own new language!….hahaha!

250 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:23:57pm

re: #248 Alouette

“A bunch of assholes”

I just used words to describe it.

But who are the puppet masters!? Inquiring Becks want to know.

251 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:24:20pm

re: #246 Fozzie Bear

Care to raise any other random unrelated red herrings?

A simple yes or no answer would have sufficed.

252 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:24:33pm

re: #237 imp_62

[Video]

I’m Confused …
“embedding disabled by request”.
LOL.
*sorry*

253 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:24:35pm

re: #244 Gus 802

Yes. And you apply that same logic with Republicans and conservatives?

zinga!

254 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:24:59pm

re: #249 albusteve

it deserves it’s own new language!…hahaha!

Klingon!

255 brookly red  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:25:13pm

re: #250 000G

But who are the puppet masters!? Inquiring Becks want to know.

why is starting to rub me wrong?

256 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:25:36pm

A bureaucrat buddy taught me how to deal with “faceless” organizations. Encounter it physically and tell the first face you see that they are “The Face”. Works wonders. Barret Brown has a nice face.

257 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:25:41pm

re: #251 Gus 802

A simple yes or no answer would have sufficed.

It doesn’t take adherence to any ideology to use IRC or post on anonymized forums. It takes a computer and a keyboard. It does take adherence to an ideology to join a political party, or at least a willingness to endorse an ideology, or set of positions. Hence, anon is not at all like a political party.

I can’t believe I had to spell that out for you.

258 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:25:41pm

Is anon responsible for the massive disruption of worldwide air travel?

They wish.

259 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:25:53pm

re: #254 Gus 802

Klingon!

is it too early for a cocktail?….what a goofy thread

260 brookly red  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:26:23pm

re: #256 Decatur Deb

A bureaucrat buddy taught me how to deal with “faceless” organizations. Encounter it physically and tell the first face you see that they are “The Face”. Works wonders. Barret Brown has a nice face.

Book em, Danno.

261 shutdown  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:26:28pm

re: #256 Decatur Deb

A bureaucrat buddy taught me how to deal with “faceless” organizations. Encounter it physically and tell the first face you see that they are “The Face”. Works wonders. Barret Brown has a nice face.

I’m in

262 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:26:37pm

re: #259 albusteve

is it too early for a cocktail?…what a goofy thread

Semantics are only fun for a while.

263 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:26:49pm

re: #257 Fozzie Bear

Hence, anon is not at all like a political party.

I agree - it’s more like a lynch mob.

264 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:27:14pm

re: #259 albusteve

is it too early for a cocktail?…what a goofy thread

Déjà vu.

265 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:27:18pm

re: #255 brookly red

why is starting to rub me wrong?

Maybe because imagining constantly identical, directing forces behind Anonymous is not unlike how the John Birch Society understood social change?

266 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:27:35pm

re: #263 Charles

I agree - it’s more like a lynch mob.

Except that a lynch mob kills people, and anon disrups websites.

Yeah, apart from the whole murder thing they are TOTALLY identical. /

267 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:28:16pm

re: #266 Fozzie Bear

Except that a lynch mob kills people, and anon disrups websites.

Yeah, apart from the whole murder thing they are TOTALLY identical. /

As long as it’s not your revenue stream that’s being disrupted.

268 Alexzander  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:28:19pm

re: #256 Decatur Deb

A bureaucrat buddy taught me how to deal with “faceless” organizations. Encounter it physically and tell the first face you see that they are “The Face”. Works wonders. Barret Brown has a nice face.

This is also a strategy for controlling protests. Step one: require registration for protest to occur ‘legally.’ Step two: require individuals to essentially be responsible for said protest. Step three: Remind said individuals the day of the protest that they are responsible for any illegal activity. If its an illegal protest, then just find someone who looks semi-leader-ish and tell them they are “The Face” and will be responsible.

269 shutdown  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:28:24pm

re: #262 SanFranciscoZionist

Semantics are only fun for a while.

“a while” or “awhile”?
/
booze time.

270 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:28:44pm

re: #266 Fozzie Bear

Except that a lynch mob kills people, and anon disrups websites.

Yeah, apart from the whole murder thing they are TOTALLY identical. /

Window breaking types.

271 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:28:52pm

re: #265 000G

Maybe because imagining constantly identical, directing forces behind Anonymous is not unlike how the John Birch Society understood social change?

I’m sure you’re familiar with the term “straw man argument.”

272 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:28:57pm

re: #254 Gus 802

Klingon!

Hu’tegh!

273 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:28:57pm

re: #257 Fozzie Bear

It doesn’t take adherence to any ideology to use IRC or post on anonymized forums. It takes a computer and a keyboard. It does take adherence to an ideology to join a political party, or at least a willingness to endorse an ideology, or set of positions. Hence, anon is not at all like a political party.

I can’t believe I had to spell that out for you.

My question was not in reference to that. Forget I asked — I’ll pass.

274 brookly red  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:29:03pm

re: #265 000G

Maybe because imagining constantly identical, directing forces behind Anonymous is not unlike how the John Birch Society understood social change?

or maybe because I remember speech patterns…

whatever.

275 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:29:30pm

re: #267 Alouette

As long as it’s not your revenue stream that’s being disrupted.

Revenue is still different from life.

“Mob” is accurate. “Lynch mob” I think goes too far, keeping the victims of actual lynch mobs in mind.

276 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:30:03pm

re: #271 Charles

I’m sure you’re familiar with the term “straw man argument.”

Yes, I am. Been exposed to that many times in this very thread until I thought I would try it myself.

277 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:30:19pm

re: #232 brookly red

then you have never experienced New Jersey Transit…

NJ Transit comes off looking good in comparison to NYC and Mayor Bloomberg who refused to declare a state of emergency last night as everyone knew that this storm was going to be bad. Then, he goes on to claim that this was the worst storm to hit NYC in its history - but doesn’t apologize?

Bloomberg screwed up, and so too did the MTA for running buses out of depots even as hundreds were stranded on routes around the city.

FUBAR. And Bloomberg needs to man up.

278 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:30:41pm

some serious analism floating across my screen

279 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:31:15pm

I should get a break and make dinner.

No offense meant, anyone.

bbl

280 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:31:24pm

re: #278 albusteve

some serious analism floating across my screen

Yeah. Apparently we’re a bunch of Glenn Becks for even questioning Anonymous.

281 brookly red  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:32:33pm

re: #277 lawhawk

NJ Transit comes off looking good in comparison to NYC and Mayor Bloomberg who refused to declare a state of emergency last night as everyone knew that this storm was going to be bad. Then, he goes on to claim that this was the worst storm to hit NYC in its history - but doesn’t apologize?

Bloomberg screwed up, and so too did the MTA for running buses out of depots even as hundreds were stranded on routes around the city.

FUBAR. And Bloomberg needs to man up.

I heard he promised not to change the law so he can run again, again…

282 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:33:12pm

re: #276 000G

You don’t seem to appreciate that for me, this argument just stopped being academic. This gang of thugs sent me a message today, to keep my mouth shut. I tend to take those things personally.

283 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:34:04pm

re: #145 Fozzie Bear

Anonymity isn’t possible anyway.

284 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:34:49pm

re: #283 Obdicut

Anonymity isn’t possible anyway.

Of course it is possible, it just isn’t trivial to achieve under scrutiny.

285 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:35:17pm

re: #275 000G

Revenue is still different from life.

“Mob” is accurate. “Lynch mob” I think goes too far, keeping the victims of actual lynch mobs in mind.

If someone takes away your job and your livelihood, you lose all your money and become homeless, that’s not life-shortening?

286 shutdown  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:35:27pm

re: #282 Charles

You don’t seem to appreciate that for me, this argument just stopped being academic. This gang of thugs sent me a message today, to keep my mouth shut. I tend to take those things personally.

DId you consider this a threat? If so, have you notified relevant law enforcement?

287 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:36:15pm

re: #280 Gus 802

Yeah. Apparently we’re a bunch of Glenn Becks for even questioning Anonymous.

hold it buddy…are you a thief or a pickpocket?….a robber?…do you have a partner, you know a name of some sort?….believe you me, my next decision rests with your answers!….hoodlum, gangster or crook?

288 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:36:46pm

re: #286 imp_62

DId you consider this a threat? If so, have you notified relevant law enforcement?

There’s not much point in that; I’ve tried before and unless there’s a very direct, stated threat, nobody will even talk to you.

289 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:38:25pm

re: #288 Charles

There’s not much point in that; I’ve tried before and unless there’s a very direct, stated threat, nobody will even talk to you.

Electronic Freedom Foundation? They have to be of two minds on this.

290 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:38:27pm

re: #282 Charles

You don’t seem to appreciate that for me, this argument just stopped being academic. This gang of thugs sent me a message today, to keep my mouth shut. I tend to take those things personally.


all the resulting bullshit is just petty linguistics…you have in fact been assaulted and threatened and people want to explain to you how disorganized these assholes are….unreal

291 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:39:05pm

re: #284 Fozzie Bear

Of course it is possible, it just isn’t trivial to achieve under scrutiny.

No, it’s not possible. Not at all.

Why do you keep asserting that you know anon like nobody else does? It’s amazingly arrogant.

I’ve been on BBSes, on /test, on Usenet, and on Anon. The entire time, I have observed that, rather than ‘anyone’ being able to whip up the mob, it was very rare for a sustained effort to ever be achieved, and when it was, it was due to an organized group of individuals making the effort to keep it going. They’re not ‘leaders’, but they are manipulating the mob. They’re as much of a leader as a mob can have.

Why does being patronizing on this subject gain you?

292 shutdown  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:39:09pm

re: #288 Charles

There’s not much point in that; I’ve tried before and unless there’s a very direct, stated threat, nobody will even talk to you.

OT, but this specific type of circumstances - vague, yet directed threats that do not seem actionable by law enforcement - is at the root of vigilanteism. Nobody wants to feel helpless, so a logical step is to take action. It requires a great deal of discipline, and faith in the societal order, to refrain.

293 Michael McBacon  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:39:11pm

Thanks for the update, Charles. I’ll watch out for these “anonymous” twits on Twitter.

294 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:39:13pm

re: #287 albusteve

hold it buddy…are you a thief or a pickpocket?…a robber?…do you have a partner, you know a name of some sort?…believe you me, my next decision rests with your answers!…hoodlum, gangster or crook?

None of the above.

295 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:39:27pm

Been checking logs, and sure enough it was an LOIC attack. They didn’t keep it up for very long, it was obviously just intended to send a message.

Like Guido the Enforcer: “we wouldn’t want to see anything happen to this nice little website you got here.”

296 Alexzander  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:39:28pm

re: #285 Alouette

If someone takes away your job and your livelihood, you lose all your money and become homeless, that’s not life-shortening?

So Bank of America is a lynch mob?

297 Alexzander  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:40:21pm

That is to say, there needs to be at least a couple more necessary and sufficient conditions for ‘lynch mob.’

298 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:40:32pm

The Talmud actually describes a form of “anonymous” persecution that took place in ancient Sodom (usually, not really accurately, associated with a different type of activity). A “flash mob” would descend upon a target (usually a traveling stranger) and each individual in the mob would steal an object worth less than a penny, but nevertheless the victim would be stripped bare.

299 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:40:53pm

re: #296 Alexzander

So Bank of America is a lynch mob?

They lack the necessary spontaneity.

300 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:41:19pm

There is no “they” in Anonymous.

Welcome to the blackhole of logic and deflection.

//

301 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:41:20pm

re: #294 Gus 802

None of the above.

a scenario I dreamed up….everybody knows your a harmless jewel thief

302 BishopX  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:42:04pm

The big issue with using governmental powers to stop anonymous is scale. The LOIC was downloaded ~31,000 times during the 1st wave attacks, of that the BBC reported about 1/3 were in the US. So 10,000 people committed what would be termed a federal crime if they were to be charged. There are 678 federal district court judges, lets call it 750 when you include appeals courts judges who can work as district court judges in a pinch. That’s 13 script kiddies per judge. How long does a trial take? This stuff is reasonably technical, the prosecutor will need to explain anonymous, ip addresses, the LOIC, 4chan…etc, lets claim that each trail can be done in a day. There are 260 work days in the year, so prosecuting anonymous will take up something on the order of 5% of the annual courts days for the entire federal court system.

Does the US care to devote 5% of the annual workings of an entire branch of government to stopping a bunch of script kiddies?

303 brookly red  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:43:55pm

re: #302 BishopX

The big issue with using governmental powers to stop anonymous is scale. The LOIC was downloaded ~31,000 times during the 1st wave attacks, of that the BBC reported about 1/3 were in the US. So 10,000 people committed what would be termed a federal crime if they were to be charged. There are 678 federal district court judges, lets call it 750 when you include appeals courts judges who can work as district court judges in a pinch. That’s 13 script kiddies per judge. How long does a trial take? This stuff is reasonably technical, the prosecutor will need to explain anonymous, ip addresses, the LOIC, 4chan…etc, lets claim that each trail can be done in a day. There are 260 work days in the year, so prosecuting anonymous will take up something on the order of 5% of the annual courts days for the entire federal court system.

Does the US care to devote 5% of the annual workings of an entire branch of government to stopping a bunch of script kiddies?

/naaaw, just pick out 2 or 3 and make examples of em…

304 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:44:06pm

re: #296 Alexzander

So Bank of America is a lynch mob?

BofA won’t break your legs if you default on a loan.

305 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:44:17pm

re: #300 Gus 802

It’s a category mistake, I think. Not on your part.

There is “Anonymous”, defined as everyone hanging out in the IRC rooms, the chans, etc. That’s a gigantic, totally incoherent group, displaying no organized activity.

Then there is “Anonymous”, defined as whoever is currently participating in an attack or action of some sort. That’s a much smaller, more coherent group.

Then there are the groups inside Anonymous, individuals who organize with each other to attempt to direct Anonymous against specific targets.

You can’t ‘take down’ the largest Anonymous. Doesn’t even make any sense.

Badgering the smaller, but still large Anonymous would be difficult. Some enforcement would probably help, but there’s a lot of stupid fuckers who think it’ll never happen to them.

The smaller groups who organize are much easier to figure out and target.

306 shutdown  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:45:19pm

re: #304 Alouette

BofA won’t break your legs if you default on a loan.

Beg to differ
[Link: www.walletpop.com…]

307 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:45:20pm

re: #302 BishopX


See:

re: #291 Obdicut

No, it’s not possible. Not at all.

Why do you keep asserting that you know anon like nobody else does? It’s amazingly arrogant.

I’ve been on BBSes, on /test, on Usenet, and on Anon. The entire time, I have observed that, rather than ‘anyone’ being able to whip up the mob, it was very rare for a sustained effort to ever be achieved, and when it was, it was due to an organized group of individuals making the effort to keep it going. They’re not ‘leaders’, but they are manipulating the mob. They’re as much of a leader as a mob can have.

Why does being patronizing on this subject gain you?

It’s the organized group of individuals that must be sought. Which apparently, to some here, doesn’t exist. Only it has to exist, because things do not happen in a vacuum, they implode and die. For something coordinated to actually happen somebody has to be pulling some strings.

308 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:45:24pm

re: #302 BishopX

The big issue with using governmental powers to stop anonymous is scale. The LOIC was downloaded ~31,000 times during the 1st wave attacks, of that the BBC reported about 1/3 were in the US. So 10,000 people committed what would be termed a federal crime if they were to be charged. There are 678 federal district court judges, lets call it 750 when you include appeals courts judges who can work as district court judges in a pinch. That’s 13 script kiddies per judge. How long does a trial take? This stuff is reasonably technical, the prosecutor will need to explain anonymous, ip addresses, the LOIC, 4chan…etc, lets claim that each trail can be done in a day. There are 260 work days in the year, so prosecuting anonymous will take up something on the order of 5% of the annual courts days for the entire federal court system.

Does the US care to devote 5% of the annual workings of an entire branch of government to stopping a bunch of script kiddies?

contract it out…problem solved

309 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:46:05pm

re: #220 Gus 802

I give up. This is like debating with magicians that want you to believe their magic is real. The whole “movement” is one bizarre fucked up ideology created by a bunch of weirdos with too much time on their hands.

pssst. attack on Soylent Green is a go for tomorrow. pass it on/

310 dmon  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:46:19pm

re: #303 brookly red

I agree, I would imagine making abot 20 arrests on the same day across the U.S., lots of publicity, and vigorous prosecution, would knock their ranks in half.

Its like prostitution…..you dont have to prosecute all the Johns, all you have to do arrest some of them, and anounce it on the evening news……. doesnt take care of the problem forever but it sure tamps it don for a while

311 BishopX  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:46:25pm

re: #303 brookly red

And that’s worked so well with file sharing websites? Anonymous isn’t an organization like the mafia (which is the only thing on this scale which the feds have ever prosecuted), if you take apart the mafias organization it falls apart. If you arrest anonymous kiddies there will just be more anonymous kiddies.

312 brookly red  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:46:31pm

re: #308 albusteve

contract it out…problem solved

shovel ready jobs!

313 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:46:56pm

re: #304 Alouette

BofA won’t break your legs if you default on a loan.

BofA is the absolute pits…the worst

314 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:47:07pm

re: #309 Aceofwhat?

But… But… it’s people.

315 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:47:12pm

re: #305 Obdicut

It’s a category mistake, I think. Not on your part.

There is “Anonymous”, defined as everyone hanging out in the IRC rooms, the chans, etc. That’s a gigantic, totally incoherent group, displaying no organized activity.

Then there is “Anonymous”, defined as whoever is currently participating in an attack or action of some sort. That’s a much smaller, more coherent group.

Then there are the groups inside Anonymous, individuals who organize with each other to attempt to direct Anonymous against specific targets.

You can’t ‘take down’ the largest Anonymous. Doesn’t even make any sense.

Badgering the smaller, but still large Anonymous would be difficult. Some enforcement would probably help, but there’s a lot of stupid fuckers who think it’ll never happen to them.

The smaller groups who organize are much easier to figure out and target.

I never intended to promote the idea of taking down the esoteric Anonymous. However, for practical purposes it is reasonable to consider them an organized group when discussing the matter. It would be difficult to discuss otherwise. Their small factions make up a large enough group to consider them a collective.

That being said I would agree with Brookly. Whoever can be prosecuted should be prosecuted and made and example of during sentencing. Anyone found guilty should face upwards of 10 years to get the message out.

316 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:47:21pm

re: #302 BishopX

Does the US care to devote 5% of the annual workings of an entire branch of government to stopping a bunch of script kiddies?

You don’t have to arrest everybody, that’s not how it works. Think of this like the mafia. They’ll infiltrate the group, monitor communications, make a few arrests here and there. Charge the leaders and eventually the whole thing falls apart. It’s very simple and has been done before. this is nothing new or particularly challenging.

317 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:47:22pm

re: #305 Obdicut

Exactly. “They” is one hell of a squishy pronoun. Anon both is and isn’t an organized group, if you allow yourself to conflate small groups that hide with Anon with the whole.

318 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:47:28pm

This is ridiculous.
The attacks on BofA, Mastercard and LGF were coordinated. Coordination requires leadership.

319 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:47:47pm

re: #307 reine.de.tout

See:

re: #291 Obdicut

It’s the organized group of individuals that must be sought. Which apparently, to some here, doesn’t exist. Only it has to exist, because things do not happen in a vacuum, they implode and die. For something coordinated to actually happen somebody has to be pulling some strings.

The important object lesson would be to prove their anonymity is not as great a protection as they think. That would take some forensic IT and a few well-publicized indictments

320 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:47:59pm

re: #317 Fozzie Bear

Exactly. “They” is one hell of a squishy pronoun. Anon both is and isn’t an organized group, if you allow yourself to conflate small groups that hide with Anon with the whole.

You are the one mainly committing this error.

321 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:48:22pm

re: #315 Gus 802

I never intended to promote the idea of taking down the esoteric Anonymous. However, for practical purposes it is reasonable to consider them an organized group when discussing the matter. It would be difficult to discuss otherwise. Their small factions make up a large enough group to consider them a collective.

That being said I would agree with Brookly. Whoever can be prosecuted should be prosecuted and made and example of during sentencing. Anyone found guilty should face upwards of 10 years to get the message out.

Not only is doing that impractical, it is misleading and unhelpful.

322 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:48:36pm

re: #243 Killgore Trout

Anon is so magical and new there aren’t even words to describe it yet.

ANARHY!

323 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:48:56pm

re: #320 Obdicut

You are the one mainly committing this error.

Read 315, then tell me i’m the one mangling pronouns.

324 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:49:29pm

re: #249 albusteve

it deserves it’s own new language!…hahaha!

klaatu…verata…ni*coughgrmblrmbl*

325 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:49:33pm

re: #318 Varek Raith

Not necessarily.

Someone shouts - let’s LOIC LGF. So a few people who read that message decide to jump on board. And so it goes.

Ditto for the attacks on BoA or anyone else hit by these DDoS attacks.

Doesn’t make it better, and people involved would still be breaking any number of laws and TOS for their ISPs.

326 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:49:46pm

re: #323 Fozzie Bear

Read 315, then tell me i’m the one mangling pronouns.

Now I’m mangling pronouns?

327 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:49:59pm

[deleted]

328 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:50:21pm

re: #315 Gus 802

I used ‘taking down’ as a euphemism….simple as that

329 BishopX  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:50:40pm

re: #316 Killgore Trout

The mafia had a hierarchy. You take down the bosses and the enforcers have nothing to do. Anon doesn’t work that way. You take out the people running the chat rooms and you get another bunch running the chat rooms. It’s a “flat” organizational structure, which is very hard to take down without a non trivial number of prosecutions.

330 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:50:43pm

re: #316 Killgore Trout

You don’t have to arrest everybody, that’s not how it works. Think of this like the mafia. They’ll infiltrate the group, monitor communications, make a few arrests here and there. Charge the leaders and eventually the whole thing falls apart. It’s very simple and has been done before. this is nothing new or particularly challenging.

b.b.b.but
There Are No Leaders.
/

331 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:51:00pm

re: #325 lawhawk

Not necessarily.

Someone shouts - let’s LOIC LGF. So a few people who read that message decide to jump on board. And so it goes.

Ditto for the attacks on BoA or anyone else hit by these DDoS attacks.

Doesn’t make it better, and people involved would still be breaking any number of laws and TOS for their ISPs.

Point taken.
Leadership was too strong a word.

332 Kragar  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:51:21pm

Anonymous is simply using a variant of cell operations which criminal, terrorist, and revolutionary groups have been using for centuries, this time using computer systems to coordinate.

They aren’t new and they aren’t as anonymous as they think they are.

333 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:51:49pm

re: #318 Varek Raith

This is ridiculous.
The attacks on BofA, Mastercard and LGF were coordinated. Coordination requires leadership.

egg-frikken’-zactly.

334 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:52:29pm

Anonymous = Moonbats

335 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:52:54pm

re: #321 Fozzie Bear

Not only is doing that impractical, it is misleading and unhelpful.

what is your practical approach to the matter of dis/organization?….one that is helpful to the discussion?

336 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:53:11pm

By the way, they apparently didn’t stop the attack, as I first thought. HM started redirecting the botnet’s requests.

337 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:53:27pm

re: #330 reine.de.tout

b.b.b.but
There Are No Leaders.
/

The first one they catch becomes “the number 3 man in Al Queda Anonymous”.

338 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:53:37pm

re: #329 BishopX

The mafia had a hierarchy.


So does Anon. Last I read it was estimated to have a leadership of about 12 according to members of the group.

339 dmon  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:53:47pm

I’d almost be willing to bet that a few highly publicized indictments followed by a mass text message to each of these idots cell phones letting them know the FBI knows who they are would stop it.

It would also be extremely entertaining

340 brookly red  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:54:10pm

re: #335 albusteve

what is your practical approach to the matter of dis/organization?…one that is helpful to the discussion?

if you round em up then they ain’t disorganized no more?

341 Alexzander  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:55:09pm

re: #338 Killgore Trout

So does Anon. Last I read it was estimated to have a leadership of about 12 according to members of the group.

If this is true I bet there are huge resources going into finding them, and I’d bet they are fucked.

342 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:55:19pm

re: #339 dmon

I’d almost be willing to bet that a few highly publicized indictments followed by a mass text message to each of these idots cell phones letting them know the FBI knows who they are would stop it.

It would also be extremely entertaining

select a few and sic the IRS on their ass for some snoopage

343 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:55:21pm

re: #331 Varek Raith

Point taken.
Leadership was too strong a word.

coordination requires at least a smidgeon of organization, somewhere within the various groups. And where there’s “organization”, there’s someone manipulating or pulling the strings, even if it’s not outright “leadership”.

344 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:55:37pm

re: #323 Fozzie Bear

Read 315, then tell me i’m the one mangling pronouns.

You are missing my point. You do keep skipping between the largest and smallest definition of anonymous whenever it’s convenient for your argument. In addition, you persist in either denying or avoiding the topic of organized groups directing the actions of Anonymous— not through main force, not through visible leadership, but because Anonymous is a mob, and mobs can be influenced by agitators.

345 BishopX  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:56:04pm

re: #339 dmon

So what the FBI is allowed to pick and choose now? better hope now of them dated an agents daughter….

346 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:56:22pm

re: #343 reine.de.tout

coordination requires at least a smidgeon of organization, somewhere within the various groups. And where there’s “organization”, there’s someone manipulating or pulling the strings, even if it’s not outright “leadership”.

It takes one person, a computer, and an internet connection. The botnet attacking LGF is a perfect illustration of that. Botnet “owners” aren’t famous for sharing control.

347 dmon  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:57:36pm

re: #345 BishopX

Sure, why not, law enforcement often does selective prosecution to get the word out……. law enforcement isnt just for prosecution of crimes, it also is used a deterrent to change behavior.

348 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:57:48pm

re: #346 Fozzie Bear

It takes one person, a computer, and an internet connection. The botnet attacking LGF is a perfect illustration of that. Botnet “owners” aren’t famous for sharing control.

well, it also takes someone to yell ‘hey let’s go attack LGF’, right?

349 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:58:23pm

re: #345 BishopX

So what the FBI is allowed to pick and choose now? better hope now of them dated an agents daughter…

the FBI does what it wants….in this case, go for it…how else to you protect net users like Charles?…doing nothing is not an option

350 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:58:24pm

re: #346 Fozzie Bear

It takes the right person. An internet connection doesn’t make someone able to compel others into action.

And botnets are an entirely separate issue; I’m not sure why you’re conflating them with group action.

351 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 12:59:17pm

re: #344 Obdicut

You are missing my point. You do keep skipping between the largest and smallest definition of anonymous whenever it’s convenient for your argument. In addition, you persist in either denying or avoiding the topic of organized groups directing the actions of Anonymous— not through main force, not through visible leadership, but because Anonymous is a mob, and mobs can be influenced by agitators.

My argument, from the beginning, has been against conflating Anonymous (the movement) and Anonymous (the specific group attacking Mastercard et. al.).

My only issue with the bolded portion is the degree of difficulty of doing this: it is very, very low. Agitating Anon into action is a trivial matter.

352 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:00:13pm

Any one of us could download the LOIC anon is using.
Stupidly simple. Not sharing botnets?
Lol

353 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:00:20pm

re: #346 Fozzie Bear

It takes one person, a computer, and an internet connection. The botnet attacking LGF is a perfect illustration of that. Botnet “owners” aren’t famous for sharing control.

Fozzie, I’m sorry.
What you are suggesting here is that a coordinated thing has spontaneously erupted in some sort of vacuum.

It just doesn’t happen that way.

354 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:00:21pm

re: #350 Obdicut

It takes the right person. An internet connection doesn’t make someone able to compel others into action.

And botnets are an entirely separate issue; I’m not sure why you’re conflating them with group action.

Because the thing attacking LGF is a botnet, as Charles implied. Hence, the conflation of group action with individuals. I.e., it could easily be one person attacking LGF.

355 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:00:25pm

If they are as trust-based as they seem, prosecuting the easier cannon fodder might be more valuable than going for “leaders”. There’s lots of paranoia to be fostered in that world.

356 deranged cat  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:00:59pm

…who? :)

357 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:03:04pm

re: #355 Decatur Deb

If they are as trust-based as they seem, prosecuting the easier cannon fodder might be more valuable than going for “leaders”. There’s lots of paranoia to be fostered in that world.

Exactly. A honeypot would be a much easier way to catch large numbers of script kiddies than traditional enforcement.

358 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:03:52pm

Well, I gotta go mangle some pronouns or something for a bit.

bbl.

359 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:03:56pm

re: #351 Fozzie Bear

My argument, from the beginning, has been against conflating Anonymous (the movement) and Anonymous (the specific group attacking Mastercard et. al.).

That has not been your only argument, no.


My only issue with the bolded portion is the degree of difficulty of doing this: it is very, very low. Agitating Anon into action is a trivial matter.

It is not very, very low to get anonymous to sustain an action.

I think you’re simply looking at everything backwards.

Every day, hundreds of ‘Hurr hurr, let’s do this” gets posted on Anon. Most of them never go anywhere. A few do.

The selection of those few is not random. It may be because the issue resonates with a lot of people on Anon, or it may be because the person writing it wrote a very compelling post, or it may be because the target seems especially worthy. But it is not simply random. There is a selection criteria.

Beyond that, the repeated, sustained effort, like Operation Payback, is a beast that’s entirely, entirely different. It isn’t just something rising to the top, selected for by processes. It’s a large, organized collection of actions all sharing a similar theme. It takes organized individuals to collaborate for it to happen; or else the attempts fragment. As they do almost always anyway, but the only way they are sustained at all is through organized action.

You are confusing Anonymous’s usually jackassery— like harassing teenage girls— with this sustained action. The two are so obviously, obviously different.

360 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:05:12pm

The dog has decided mine is the face he wants at the end of the leash. BBL.

361 BishopX  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:05:38pm

re: #349 albusteve

You do what his ISP did…redirect it. What’s happening now is the equivalent of a street protest. It’s loud,annoying, slows other people down and might break a few windows. It does no permanent damage, doesn’t endanger anyone and is relatively trivial to deal with (by the internet equivalent of a security shutter in front of your window).Calling in the FBI on something like this is the equivalent of calling in the national guard to deal with a protest, most often it only makes it worse.

362 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:05:53pm

re: #354 Fozzie Bear

Because the thing attacking LGF is a botnet, as Charles implied. Hence, the conflation of group action with individuals. I.e., it could easily be one person attacking LGF.

Well, in that case your post simply made no sense. Reine talked about coordination. One person doesn’t have to coordinate. They come pre-coordinated.

363 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:07:26pm

re: #362 Obdicut

Well, in that case your post simply made no sense. Reine talked about coordination. One person doesn’t have to coordinate. They come pre-coordinated.

That’s my point. Any one person can have an outsize presence within anon, because one person can “be” dozens of people.

364 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:08:10pm

re: #363 Fozzie Bear

Imagine what LGF would look like if it were hundreds of thousands of times larger, and every member could create an infinite number of socks.

365 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:08:58pm

re: #364 Fozzie Bear

And were totally unmoderated, and everyone used the same name, etc.

366 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:09:06pm

re: #361 BishopX

DDoS and DoS attacks are not like street protests.

367 BishopX  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:09:35pm

The LOIC is a voluntary botnet. You plug your computer in, it joins an encrypted IRC channel, and receives attack orders. The LOIC is a transparent app, the IRC channel, not so much.

368 BishopX  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:09:53pm

re: #366 Varek Raith

Why not?

369 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:09:59pm

re: #361 BishopX

Calling in the FBI on something like this is the equivalent of calling in the national guard to deal with a protest, most often it only makes it worse.

Nope. Excessive force can make a protest worse because people get hurt.

Showing up at some pimple-ridden 16-year old’s house is not going to make things ‘worse’ in that sense. He might soil himself, but that’s about it.

Making an example of some of these twits may have little effect or a significant effect, but it will almost certainly not get anyone seriously injured.

370 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:11:31pm

re: #366 Varek Raith

DDoS and DoS attacks are not like street protests.

They really are a lot like street protests, or as close as you can get on the internet. Its a crapload of people willingly congregating where they aren’t wanted, preventing legitimate commerce. That sounds a lot like a street protest to me.

371 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:11:35pm

re: #363 Fozzie Bear

That’s my point. Any one person can have an outsize presence within anon, because one person can “be” dozens of people.

That is not a very good point. Are you talking about one person with a botnet, or one person with a lot of IPs, or what?

372 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:12:28pm

re: #368 BishopX

Why not?

Street protests can be legal, and do not interfere with business if they are.

373 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:12:29pm

re: #370 Fozzie Bear

They really are a lot like street protests, or as close as you can get on the internet. Its a crapload of people willingly congregating where they aren’t wanted, preventing legitimate commerce. That sounds a lot like a street protest to me.

They also get broken up buy LEOs and get their asses arrested it they break stuff.

374 kirkspencer  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:12:33pm

fwiw, it largely reminds me of a flash mob. Which in turn resemble some previous generation “spontaneous protests”.

This makes it no less nasty or frustrating or illegal. It’s just I think understanding the structure useful for both reaction and (hopeful) prevention.

375 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:12:39pm

re: #371 Obdicut

That is not a very good point. Are you talking about one person with a botnet, or one person with a lot of IPs, or what?

Either/or. Or a bunch of separate people with differing IP’s. It’s not easy to tell the difference from the outside.

376 BishopX  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:12:44pm

re: #369 Aceofwhat?

I Agree that examples won’t get anyone hurt, but it will radicalize a whole bunch of people. It will also give anonymous the thing they most desire, attention, anon gets bigger when it makes the front page.

377 kirkspencer  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:13:27pm

re: #372 wrenchwench

Street protests can be legal, and do not interfere with business if they are.

“can be”, not are, and even when legal they can interfere with businesses who have their doors blocked by the crowds.

378 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:13:39pm

re: #370 Fozzie Bear

They really are a lot like street protests, or as close as you can get on the internet. Its a crapload of people willingly congregating where they aren’t wanted, preventing legitimate commerce. That sounds a lot like a street protest to me.

except for the part where law enforcement can respond without fear of violent clashes, greatly reducing our need to wring our hands out of concern that we might ‘do more harm than good’…

379 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:13:42pm

re: #373 Varek Raith

They also get broken up by LEOs and get their asses arrested if they break stuff.

Good grief!
I can’t spell.

380 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:14:47pm

re: #374 kirkspencer

fwiw, it largely reminds me of a flash mob. Which in turn resemble some previous generation “spontaneous protests”.

This makes it no less nasty or frustrating or illegal. It’s just I think understanding the structure useful for both reaction and (hopeful) prevention.

a flash mob code-named Operation somethingorother? doesn’t a code name for an operation, like, sorta, run contrary to the definition of a flash mob?

381 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:15:01pm

re: #370 Fozzie Bear

They really are a lot like street protests, or as close as you can get on the internet. Its a crapload of people willingly congregating where they aren’t wanted, preventing legitimate commerce. That sounds a lot like a street protest to me.

Typically you need a permit to conduct a street protest. It also requires a police presence. Equating DDOS attacks to a street protest is equivalent to pro-life protesters blocking those seeking abortions into clinics. You are not allowed to block people from entering a site during a protest.

382 Alexzander  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:15:15pm

re: #372 wrenchwench

Street protests can be legal, and do not interfere with business if they are.

Legal protests almost always have some impact on business function, either by blocking off streets, slowing or stalling transit or sometimes more directly picketing a business for some sort of (perceived) ethically problematic practice.

383 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:16:03pm

re: #381 Gus 802

Typically you need a permit to conduct a street protest. It also requires a police presence. Equating DDOS attacks to a street protest is equivalent to pro-life protesters blocking those seeking abortions into clinics. You are not allowed to block people from entering a site during a protest.

Not all protests are legal, or obtain permits. Not all of them attack only that which deserves criticism. That doesn’t make them not protests.

384 BishopX  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:16:16pm

re: #378 Aceofwhat?

Wanna bet? the only way you are going to stop anonymous (aside from waitng for them to get bored) is to allow the feds to be able to require the ISPs turn off peoples internet. And there will be a quite a bit of collateral damage if that happens.

385 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:16:25pm

re: #376 BishopX

I Agree that examples won’t get anyone hurt, but it will radicalize a whole bunch of people. It will also give anonymous the thing they most desire, attention, anon gets bigger when it makes the front page.

oh, like how when we defend ourselves against an islamic terrorist, we create more terrorists?

yes, we should just lie down and take it.

386 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:16:38pm

re: #383 Fozzie Bear

Not all protests are legal, or obtain permits. Not all of them attack only that which deserves criticism. That doesn’t make them not protests.

Those that are not legal also tend to be broken up by the cops.

387 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:16:44pm

re: #375 Fozzie Bear

Either/or. Or a bunch of separate people with differing IP’s. It’s not easy to tell the difference from the outside.

So what? What is the point of this point?

388 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:17:25pm

re: #386 Varek Raith

Those that are not legal also tend to be broken up by the cops.

Yep. In this case you can’t just go to the site of the protest with horses, though. You have to go and get them individually.

389 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:17:33pm

I’m confused. If in Operation Payback there are dozens of leaders co-ordianting thousands of attacks using easily traceable software, why have there only been 3 arrests? 2 of those due to LOIC?

390 BishopX  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:17:49pm

re: #386 Varek Raith

The small ones do. The big ones…not so much.

391 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:18:13pm

re: #389 Jeff In Ohio

I’m confused. If in Operation Payback there are dozens of leaders co-ordianting thousands of attacks using easily traceable software, why have there only been 3 arrests? 2 of those due to LOIC?

Because there isn’t any evidence that there are dozens of leaders, other than unsourced assertions.

392 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:18:48pm

re: #383 Fozzie Bear

Not all protests are legal, or obtain permits. Not all of them attack only that which deserves criticism. That doesn’t make them not protests.

That’s fine. But my point is that not all protest activities are legal. There are consequences to breaking the law when anarchy ensues.

393 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:19:12pm

re: #385 Aceofwhat?

oh, like how when we defend ourselves against an islamic terrorist, we create more terrorists?

yes, we should just lie down and take it.

Absolutely, because they know what’s good for us and in our best interest, we can’t be trusted to know that.

Sheesh.
Whole lotta people here oddly supportive of letting these shenanigans just keep on keeping on.

394 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:19:22pm

re: #392 Gus 802

That’s fine. But my point is that not all protest activities are legal. There are consequences to breaking the law when anarchy ensues.

I’m so confused.

395 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:19:53pm

re: #394 Varek Raith

I’m so confused.

Image: 603px-Anonymous_hipster.jpg

396 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:19:54pm

re: #394 Varek Raith

I’m so confused.

Go mangle some pronouns.

397 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:19:59pm

re: #382 Alexzander

Legal protests almost always have some impact on business function, either by blocking off streets, slowing or stalling transit or sometimes more directly picketing a business for some sort of (perceived) ethically problematic practice.

Legal protests don’t block streets, unless given a permit to do so. There may be inconvenience to a business caused by crowds, but legal protests don’t shut a business down. When a business is picketed (legally), there’s a reason you always see the picketers walking around in a circle. It’s so people can get through.

398 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:20:05pm

re: #384 BishopX

Wanna bet? the only way you are going to stop anonymous (aside from waitng for them to get bored) is to allow the feds to be able to require the ISPs turn off peoples internet. And there will be a quite a bit of collateral damage if that happens.

wait…three posts ago, you were saying that arresting a few people would ‘do more harm than good’, like a street protest. now you’re sure that the only way to stop them is to shut off peoples internet.

how’s about we go ahead and arrest a few idiots and see what happens before we go all Speznatz on the ether, eh?

399 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:20:23pm

re: #391 Fozzie Bear

Because there isn’t any evidence that there are dozens of leaders, other than unsourced assertions.

OK. Let’ say there’s more then 2 kids in Europe. Where are the arrests?

400 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:20:30pm

re: #387 Obdicut

So what? What is the point of this point?

The point is there is no way to tell from the outside how many people have attempted to lead anon (the movement) thus comprising anon (the organized group). Furthermore, there is no technical barrier to any individual claiming the mantle of leadership, and using it to post manifestos, calls to action, etc.

the bar isn’t just low, there is no bar.

401 Alexzander  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:20:45pm

re: #392 Gus 802

That’s fine. But my point is that not all protest activities are legal. There are consequences to breaking the law when anarchy ensues.

Its kinda the whole point of “civil disobedience.” The Montgomery Bus Boycott wasn’t legal - even cab drives who helped facilitate transit for those boycotting the buses were fined. The cops and the White Citizen’s Council were on the same side that time.

402 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:21:08pm

re: #395 Gus 802

Image: 603px-Anonymous_hipster.jpg

the pimples really set the whole look off…

403 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:21:10pm

re: #393 reine.de.tout

Absolutely, because they know what’s good for us and in our best interest, we can’t be trusted to know that.

Sheesh.
Whole lotta people here oddly supportive of letting these shenanigans just keep on keeping on.

I don’t see a single post here in support of what is happening.

404 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:21:30pm

re: #391 Fozzie Bear

Because there isn’t any evidence that there are dozens of leaders, other than unsourced assertions.

There definitely were people who, for Chanology, are persistent ‘leaders’. They have no hierarchical authority, but they’ve made it their mission, day after day, and they’ve had an effect.

There aren’t any ‘leaders’ of Anonymous in general. There are organized groups. If you don’t think there are, I’d ask you why you don’t believe so, given that any anonymous group of people tends to have cliques, conspiracies, and cabals inside it. Why would it be any different in Anonymous?

405 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:21:35pm

re: #392 Gus 802

That’s fine. But my point is that not all protest activities are legal. There are consequences to breaking the law when anarchy ensues.

We have broken no laws making and selling pie.

406 BishopX  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:21:52pm

re: #385 Aceofwhat?

Shooting stone throwers is a bad way of stopping stone throwers. Killing terrorists works because there are very few terrorists. AQ has less than 500 members world wide. 31,00 people participated in the first wave of operation payback, and 15,000 more joined up after the news story. The scale of the oppisition largely determines what the effective response will be. Arresting people works with small groups, military solutions work with large concentrated groups. Large diffuse groups require technical solutions , none of which are being proposed here.

407 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:21:57pm

re: #401 Alexzander

Oh, please.
Anon is not anywhere near that level.

408 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:22:28pm

re: #403 Fozzie Bear

I don’t see a single post here in support of what is happening.

I see a whole lot of posts saying nothing can be done, so no one should even try to do anything.

The result of that is - let ‘em keep on keeping on.

409 Gus  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:22:36pm

re: #401 Alexzander

Its kinda the whole point of “civil disobedience.” The Montgomery Bus Boycott wasn’t legal - even cab drives who helped facilitate transit for those boycotting the buses were fined. The cops and the White Citizen’s Council were on the same side that time.

I’m not seeing the equivalence here.

410 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:22:39pm

re: #395 Gus 802

Image: 603px-Anonymous_hipster.jpg

It stops being anarchy when it comes with $40 printed hoodies.

411 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:22:53pm

re: #400 Fozzie Bear

The point is there is no way to tell from the outside how many people have attempted to lead anon (the movement) thus comprising anon (the organized group). .

What are you talking about? What are these two groups?

Furthermore, there is no technical barrier to any individual claiming the mantle of leadership, and using it to post manifestos, calls to action, etc.

This is completely irrelevant. I have no idea why you think it is. It has fuck-all to do with anything. I am in no way talking about people claiming a mantle of leadership.

the bar isn’t just low, there is no bar

Yes, there is. Does everything posted on Anon get acted on?

412 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:23:38pm

re: #404 Obdicut

There definitely were people who, for Chanology, are persistent ‘leaders’. They have no hierarchical authority, but they’ve made it their mission, day after day, and they’ve had an effect.

There aren’t any ‘leaders’ of Anonymous in general. There are organized groups. If you don’t think there are, I’d ask you why you don’t believe so, given that any anonymous group of people tends to have cliques, conspiracies, and cabals inside it. Why would it be any different in Anonymous?

Of course there are agitators. Of course there are individuals spurring action on. There’s just absolutely nothing preventing any one of the tens of millions from becoming agitators.

413 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:23:52pm

re: #408 reine.de.tout

I see a whole lot of posts saying nothing can be done, so no one should even try to do anything.

The result of that is - let ‘em keep on keeping on.

Care to quote one?

414 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:23:52pm

re: #401 Alexzander

Its kinda the whole point of “civil disobedience.” The Montgomery Bus Boycott wasn’t legal - even cab drives who helped facilitate transit for those boycotting the buses were fined. The cops and the White Citizen’s Council were on the same side that time.

The bus boycott was very well organized. Civil disobedience at the time had a goal of getting people arrested. They wanted to fill the jails without emptying the streets. The tactic no longer works because they process and release people so quickly.

415 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:24:06pm

re: #403 Fozzie Bear

I don’t see a single post here in support of what is happening.

you never answered my questions…therefore it suggests you support this behavior at least to the point of doing nothing…you have made many comments but none of them cut to the chase…why is labeling paramount to action against these people….you said mislabeling them is not helpful…to what?…a lot of wind

416 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:24:46pm

re: #412 Fozzie Bear

Of course there are agitators. Of course there are individuals spurring action on. There’s just absolutely nothing preventing any one of the tens of millions from becoming agitators.

So what? Why do you think this is an important point?

417 Alexzander  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:24:46pm

re: #407 Varek Raith

Oh, please.
Anon is not anywhere near that level.

I agree - I’m not saying they are on an equivalent plane (quiet the opposite). Just pointing out that sometimes challenging legality is the right thing to do in a protest.

418 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:24:51pm

re: #406 BishopX

Shooting stone throwers is a bad way of stopping stone throwers.

Wrong. It’s a fantastic way of stopping stone throwers. It’s also immoral.

Fortunately, when the analogy is extended to our discussion, we can drop the immorality but retain the power of a firm response.

419 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:25:17pm

re: #416 Obdicut

So what? Why do you think this is an important point?

I think it’s central to understanding what is happening.

420 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:25:33pm

re: #417 Alexzander

I agree - I’m not saying they are on an equivalent plane (quiet the opposite). Just pointing out that sometimes challenging legality is the right thing to do in a protest.

You think Anon is one of those?

421 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:25:36pm

re: #413 Fozzie Bear

Care to quote one?

Bishop X is all over it. Reine doesn’t make things up.

422 kirkspencer  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:25:38pm

re: #380 Aceofwhat?

a flash mob code-named Operation somethingorother? doesn’t a code name for an operation, like, sorta, run contrary to the definition of a flash mob?

Which tells me you haven’t gotten any flash mob invites. Some are just “Hey, everybody go to 14th and Main.” Others are “Let’s do Flash Mob Red Main. Everybody go to 14th and Main, wearing something red so we know you’re part of the mob.”

About a third of the ones I see have a code name of some sort.

423 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:26:00pm

re: #401 Alexzander

Its kinda the whole point of “civil disobedience.” The Montgomery Bus Boycott wasn’t legal - even cab drives who helped facilitate transit for those boycotting the buses were fined. The cops and the White Citizen’s Council were on the same side that time.

Please. The Montgomery Bus boycott involved identifiable people with something to lose. They were not anonymous.

424 BishopX  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:26:27pm

re: #418 Aceofwhat?

Really? Shooting stone throwers works? In Kashmir? In the west bank? then why are there still stone throwers? It’s an excellent short term response. It tends to fail in the long term though.

425 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:26:34pm

re: #421 Aceofwhat?

Bishop X is all over it. Reine doesn’t make things up.

Really? Quote where he says “nothing can be done, so no one should even try to do anything”, or something equivalent.

426 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:26:47pm

re: #422 kirkspencer

Which tells me you haven’t gotten any flash mob invites. Some are just “Hey, everybody go to 14th and Main.” Others are “Let’s do Flash Mob Red Main. Everybody go to 14th and Main, wearing something red so we know you’re part of the mob.”

About a third of the ones I see have a code name of some sort.

yes, and warnings are broadcast weeks in advance. what a parallel!

427 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:27:24pm

re: #419 Fozzie Bear

I think it’s central to understanding what is happening.

Then explain why. Sure, anyone could potentially become an agitator. But they don’t. The reality is that certain people are, and do. 99% of the people on anon are never going to do anything in any way to try to get people to do stuff. of the 1% who do, the vast majority will be unsuccesful.

So why does it matter that they ‘can’? It matters if they do, and they are successful in doing so.

428 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:28:22pm

re: #413 Fozzie Bear

Care to quote one?

Yes, these few seem to imply that nothing can be done. Followed to a logical conclusion, if nothing can be done, then things will just be left to keep on going.


re: #83 Fozzie Bear

Anyone can, but everyone can’t.

re: #89 Fozzie Bear

All you can do is arrest people, which won’t have much of an effect. This mob can’t exactly be dispersed like a physical mob.


96 Fozzie Bear

Mon, Dec 27, 2010 11:36:20am replyquote
0
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re: #92 000G

The question, as I have already asked it before, is whether arresting and putting to trial some of the offenders is going to significantly change the behaviour of the movement.

Of course, it won’t.

429 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:28:30pm

re: #424 BishopX

Really? Shooting stone throwers works? In Kashmir? In the west bank? then why are there still stone throwers? It’s an excellent short term response. It tends to fail in the long term though.

No, really. If Israel decided to shoot every stone-thrower, there would be no stone-throwing. Quickly. I can guarantee you very little in this crazy world of ours, but this i can guarantee.

430 kirkspencer  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:28:37pm

re: #426 Aceofwhat?

yes, and warnings are broadcast weeks in advance. what a parallel!

Similar, not identical. I said they remind me of them.

Note I’m not defending them. But if you’re going to deal with them you’re best served by recognizing what they echo. Because what works (and doesn’t work) for the old will probably do the same for the new.

431 BishopX  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:30:00pm

re: #429 Aceofwhat?


Yes, and we are back to our 5% of the US court time firgure. Is it worth that much?

432 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:30:17pm

re: #425 Fozzie Bear

Really? Quote where he says “nothing can be done, so no one should even try to do anything”, or something equivalent.

Oh, i see. This is one of those threads where we make implications and then pretend like we don’t make implications.

If you have a different name for someone who spends time saying “you can’t do A, B, C, D or E to stop this” and isn’t interested in saying what can be done, by all means, lay it on me.

433 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:30:33pm

re: #429 Aceofwhat?

No, really. If Israel decided to shoot every stone-thrower, there would be no stone-throwing. Quickly. I can guarantee you very little in this crazy world of ours, but this i can guarantee.

overwhelming force is undeniable…there are many examples in history, it works regardless of moral issues

434 BishopX  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:30:36pm

re: #425 Fozzie Bear


Here, let me make myself clear. Anonymous are a bunch of assholes. What they are doing is wrong. It does not however rise to the level where federal prosecution is warranted. This is small potatoes stuff.

435 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:31:01pm

re: #428 reine.de.tout

Of course those engaging in crimes should be arrested. That won’t stop it, however. There are more choices than “do nothing and take it” and “just arrest the key figures, and it will stop.”

I’m not sure why my position is hard to understand. Those who are actually engaging in “hacking” can and will (and should) be arrested, AND, it will have little effect.

436 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:31:05pm

I swear I feel like I’ve been caught in the Twilight Zone.

Youtube Video
437 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:31:09pm

re: #431 BishopX

Yes, and we are back to our 5% of the US court time firgure. Is it worth that much?

to prosecute every one? probably not. let’s start with prosecuting 5% of them (even assuming that your pulled-from-air math is remotely accurate) and see what happens.

438 Alexzander  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:31:18pm

re: #420 Varek Raith

You think Anon is one of those?

When Anon attacks LGF or other sites simply for having an opposing opinion, absolutely not. I think the bank cases are a little less black and white. although I’d never participate in any of these particular activities, which on some important level means I disagree. However, I do think BOA has done infinitely more harm to America, and directly harmed more Americans than Anonymous could ever hope to do. Additionally, I mostly side with the recent editorial on NYTimes about the serious concerns raised by cutting off wikileaks from nearly all financial interaction without so much as a single charge. I dun oh, its not an easy situation to provide any super clear opinion on.

439 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:31:29pm

re: #434 BishopX

Here, let me make myself clear. Anonymous are a bunch of assholes. What they are doing is wrong. It does not however rise to the level where federal prosecution is warranted. This is small potatoes stuff.

Exactly. This.

440 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:31:59pm

re: #431 BishopX

Yes, and we are back to our 5% of the US court time firgure. Is it worth that much?

If we start prosecuting, we are not required to continue prosecuting beyond our abilities. We can get started and see how far we can get.

441 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:32:13pm

re: #439 Fozzie Bear

To clarify: go after the worst offenders. Trying to get the whole thing is a waste of time.

442 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:32:27pm

re: #434 BishopX

Here, let me make myself clear. Anonymous are a bunch of assholes. What they are doing is wrong. It does not however rise to the level where federal prosecution is warranted. This is small potatoes stuff.

I don’t want to speak out of turn, but i have a hunch that the proprietor of our fair website here would beg to differ with you.

443 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:33:02pm

gotta run. bbiam.

444 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:33:21pm

re: #432 Aceofwhat?

Oh, i see. This is one of those threads where we make implications and then pretend like we don’t make implications.

If you have a different name for someone who spends time saying “you can’t do A, B, C, D or E to stop this” and isn’t interested in saying what can be done, by all means, lay it on me.

I’ve had my ass kicked many times for similar behavior…and my questions go unanswered….it’s bullshit arguing points that are nearly irrelevant…too often the case

445 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:33:22pm

re: #442 Aceofwhat?

I don’t want to speak out of turn, but i have a hunch that the proprietor of our fair website here would beg to differ with you.

Charles can, and should (imo), report the IP’s that attacked LGF.

446 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:33:39pm

re: #441 Fozzie Bear

To clarify: go after the worst offenders. Trying to get the whole thing is a waste of time.

How about we go after as many of them as we have the legal authority and capacity to go after?

447 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:34:30pm

re: #434 BishopX

Here, let me make myself clear. Anonymous are a bunch of assholes. What they are doing is wrong. It does not however rise to the level where federal prosecution is warranted. This is small potatoes stuff.

I’m sure Charles is relieved to hear that…so in the end, you’d do nothing?

448 dmon  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:35:21pm

They wouldnt need to prosecute all them, just some very publicly.

A state trooper pulls over one vehicle they all slow down, hell he doesnt even have to issue a ticket.

If he does it on the same stretch of high for 3 or 4 days in a row they all slow down befor they get there.


It doesnt have to be an all or none proposition.

449 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:35:31pm

re: #437 Aceofwhat?

to prosecute every one? probably not. let’s start with prosecuting 5% of them (even assuming that your pulled-from-air math is remotely accurate) and see what happens.

you gotta spend a lot of money and police and FBI resources to get 1% let alone 5%, and that’s assuming they’re all in the US, which of course they aren’t all in the US.

450 Alexzander  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:36:54pm

If I were in charge I’d put all my resources into finding the leaders. That would strike the most fear, as they are presumably the most well protected (7 layers of proxies etc etc).

451 albusteve  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:37:01pm

re: #441 Fozzie Bear

To clarify: go after the worst offenders. Trying to get the whole thing is a waste of time.

you want it both ways…how convenient…not worth Federal intervention, but go for the worst offenders…that just blows dude

452 dmon  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:37:10pm

re: #449 WindUpBird

The percentage of our GDP that internet based would justify the expense.

453 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:37:30pm

re: #447 albusteve

I’m sure Charles is relieved to hear that…so in the end, you’d do nothing?

Apparently yes, the solution is to do nothing, and then they’ll play nice and stop.
riiight.

454 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:37:57pm

re: #450 Alexzander

If I were in charge I’d put all my resources into finding the leaders. That would strike the most fear, as they are presumably the most well protected (7 layers of proxies etc etc).

There Are No Leaders.
/

455 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 1:38:10pm

re: #451 albusteve

you want it both ways…how convenient…not worth Federal intervention, but go for the worst offenders…that just blows dude

You apparently can’t read. Did you not see the addendum i made to that post?

456 BishopX  Mon, Dec 27, 2010 2:34:40pm

re: #447 albusteve

I’m sure Charles is relieved to hear that…so in the end, you’d do nothing?

If I were Charles? Given the information I have (the sight was down, his hosting service blocked some ip’s and redirects the site went back up), I would probably do nothing. Maybe post something about it on the front page. By the end of the day none of this will matter.

If this became a regular occurrence beyond the ability of simple blacklisting to fix…that’s the point were I would start contemplating legal solutions.


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