FBI Raids Texas Business in Criminal Probe of Pro-Wikileaks DOS Attacks

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The Smoking Gun has details on an FBI affidavit detailing part of their criminal investigation of ‘Operation Payback’, leading to a raid on a Texas business called Tailor Made Services.

DECEMBER 29—As part of an international criminal probe into computer attacks launched this month against perceived corporate enemies of WikiLeaks, the FBI has raided a Texas business and seized a computer server that investigators believe was used to launch a massive electronic attack on PayPal, The Smoking Gun has learned.

The FBI investigation began earlier this month after PayPal officials contacted agents and “reported that an Internet activist group using the names ‘4chan’ and “Anonymous” appeared to be organizing a distributed denial of service (“DDoS”) attack against the company,” according to an FBI affidavit excerpted here.

The PayPal assault was part of “Operation Payback,” an organized effort to attack firms that suspended or froze WikiLeaks’s accounts in the wake of the group’s publication of thousands of sensitive Department of State cables. As noted by the FBI, other targets of this “Anonymous” effort included Visa, Mastercard, Sarah Palin’s web site, and the Swedish prosecutor pursuing sex assault charges against Julian Assange, the WikiLeaks founder.

On December 9, PayPal investigators provided FBI agents with eight IP addresses that were hosting an “Anonymous” Internet Relay Chat (IRC) site that was being used to organize denial of service attacks. The unidentified administrators of this IRC “then acted as the command and control” of a botnet army of computers that was used to attack target web sites.

Federal investigators noted that “multiple, severe DDos attacks” had been launched against PayPal, and that the company’s blog had been knocked offline for several hours. These coordinated attacks, investigators allege, amount to felony violations of a federal law covering the “unauthorized and knowing transmission of code or commands resulting in intentional damage to a protected computer system.”

(h/t Killgore Trout.)

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442 comments
1 lostlakehiker  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:10:52pm

Next, they can go after the DOS on LGF?

2 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:11:16pm

I'd call this thread "The Window Closes".

3 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:11:21pm

Texas? Is this coincidental?

4 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:12:33pm

re: #3 EmmmieG

Texas? Is this coincidental?

Probably. They could have used any server anywhere in the world.

5 Kronocide  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:12:55pm

re: #3 EmmmieG

Texas? Is this coincidental?

I don't know. Truth has been stranger than fiction for a while so nothing surprises me nowadays.

6 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:13:44pm

Shits about to get real.

7 PhillyPretzel  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:14:21pm

It looks like quite a few people are going to Club Fed.

8 brookly red  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:15:04pm

re: #6 Slumbering Behemoth

Shits about to get real.

yup, they can move fast when they want to.

9 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:15:15pm
On December 9, PayPal investigators provided FBI agents with eight IP addresses that were hosting an “Anonymous” Internet Relay Chat (IRC) site that was being used to organize denial of service attacks.

There's that word again. Obviously, they know nothing about anarchists and anarchism.
/

10 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:15:15pm

re: #7 PhillyPretzel

It looks like quite a few people are going to Club Fed.

well, if they're not 15 years old, that is

something tells me y'all may be a bit surprised at how young some of these dudes are

11 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:15:54pm

re: #10 WindUpBird

well, if they're not 15 years old, that is

something tells me y'all may be a bit surprised at how young some of these dudes are

Nope.
:P

12 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:15:59pm

Well, I did predict that attacking major financial organizations was the best way to get the feds interested in you.

13 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:16:31pm

Despite what Barret Brown claims in his official Anon press releases....

These coordinated attacks, investigators allege, amount to felony violations of a federal law covering the “unauthorized and knowing transmission of code or commands resulting in intentional damage to a protected computer system.”


That really is one of the shittiest aspects of this whole thing. The leadership perpetuates the myth that the kids who actually carry out the ordered attacks aren't doing anything illegal. They are fucking up a lot of young kids and their families.

14 PhillyPretzel  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:16:31pm

re: #10 WindUpBird
I would not be too surprised. This is why parents should watch their kids on the internet.

15 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:16:42pm

re: #10 WindUpBird

something tells me y'all may be a bit surprised at how young some of these dudes are

I'd be surprised if they weren't young.

16 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:16:46pm

re: #11 Varek Raith

Nope.
:P

well, the ones rooting for OMG PRISON for them

I'm one of those bleeding hearts who doens't think kids should go to prison ;-)

17 RogueOne  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:17:05pm

“unauthorized and knowing transmission of code or commands resulting in intentional damage to a protected computer system.”

I wonder what they mean by "protected computer system". Protected how? Physically or legally?

18 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:17:10pm

re: #14 PhillyPretzel

I would not be too surprised. This is why parents should watch their kids on the internet.

THIS FOREVER
The idea of kids having their own laptops? Man oh man that sounds like a recipe for mayhem

19 PhillyPretzel  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:17:53pm

re: #18 WindUpBird
Yes it does.

20 Kronocide  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:18:16pm

re: #4 Killgore Trout

Probably. They could have used any server anywhere in the world.

That's true, I don't want to imply that our Trainwrecked friend was involved on that point. However it's ironic that it's Texas and not... Switzerlandistan.

21 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:18:44pm

re: #19 PhillyPretzel

Yes it does.

I had my own computer in my room as a kid, and I didn't get up to a lot of mischief, but I certainly could have! And that was in BBS days.

22 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:18:54pm

re: #10 WindUpBird

well, if they're not 15 years old, that is

something tells me y'all may be a bit surprised at how young some of these dudes are

That may not save them. Given the organization behind this, a RICO indictment might be forthcoming. Any such kids could well end up behind bars till they turn 21.

23 PhillyPretzel  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:19:32pm

re: #21 WindUpBird
BBS?

24 brookly red  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:19:53pm

re: #15 Slumbering Behemoth

I'd be surprised if they weren't young.

Bah! drug gangs use 14 yo assassins, too f'in bad, lock em up.

25 Kronocide  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:20:06pm

re: #20 BigPapa

However it's ironic that it's Texas and not... SwitzerlandSwedenistan.


Fingers moving faster than brain.

26 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:20:15pm

re: #22 Dark_Falcon

That may not save them. Given the organization behind this, a RICO indictment might be forthcoming. Any such kids could well end up behind bars till they turn 21.

yeah, we'll see, I just don't consider a kid harrassing a web server to be worthy of more jail than rape.

That's just me and my buhleedin' heart!

27 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:20:55pm

re: #26 WindUpBird

yeah, we'll see, I just don't consider a kid harrassing a web server to be worthy of more jail than rape.

That's just me and my buhleedin' heart!

Who compared hacking to rape?

28 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:20:55pm

re: #23 PhillyPretzel

BBS?

Bulletin Board System.

basically, you set up a computer as a place to call and post messages. One person at a time, because there's only one phone line. :D

29 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:21:23pm

re: #27 Walter L. Newton

Who compared hacking to rape?

teenagers being in jail for 6-7 years is what I was referring to.

30 PhillyPretzel  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:21:41pm

re: #28 WindUpBird

Thanks

31 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:22:19pm

re: #29 WindUpBird

teenagers being in jail for 6-7 years is what I was referring to.

Oh... now I understand... it was your buhleedin' heart hyperbolic rhetoric at work. Sorry to interrupt.

32 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:22:26pm

re: #30 PhillyPretzel

Thanks

it was like the horse and buggy internet :D

33 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:22:39pm

re: #13 Killgore Trout

Despite what Barret Brown claims in his official Anon press releases...


That really is one of the shittiest aspects of this whole thing. The leadership perpetuates the myth that the kids who actually carry out the ordered attacks aren't doing anything illegal. They are fucking up a lot of young kids and their families.

The details in this affidavit show how false that idea of anonymity really is. One of the servers traced to a man in France who apparently didn't know his computer was being used - it had been rooted. So much for that "completely voluntary" botnet.

And it should also be pointed out that there's a lot of international cooperation going on in the investigation. I think anon may have left their flaming bag of dog shit on the wrong doorstep this time.

34 PhillyPretzel  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:22:51pm

re: #32 WindUpBird
Yes it was.

35 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:22:56pm

re: #24 brookly red

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. Pretty simple.

36 Slap  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:23:41pm

re: #10 WindUpBird

True enough, but I'm going to reserve judgment. An awful lot of folks over 21 have been engaging in amped-up immature stupidity for a while now -- sadly, it's no longer the domain of the teens.....

37 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:24:01pm

re: #31 Walter L. Newton

Oh... now I understand... it was your buhleedin' heart hyperbolic rhetoric at work. Sorry to interrupt.

DF brought up kids being in jail until 21, not me, I was going off his statement!

no hyperbole, just like a statement ands then a response

weird, I know...

in fact, totally wacky that I compare prison penalties, nobody ever does that!

I must be totally zany and nuts, look out!

38 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:24:06pm

re: #35 Slumbering Behemoth

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. Pretty simple.

Except in this case... some who can't do the time, won't be doing the time, since they have tutored their sycophants that there is nothing illegal in their little games.

39 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:24:35pm

re: #33 Charles

One of the servers traced to a man in France who apparently didn't know his computer was being used - it had been rooted.

One of the main reasons I can not support these kinds of crimes, regardless of the intended target.

40 RogueOne  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:25:13pm

re: #36 Slap

True enough, but I'm going to reserve judgment. An awful lot of folks over 21 have been engaging in amped-up immature stupidity for a while now -- sadly, it's no longer the domain of the teens...

Those old people with their crazy music and lousy driving!

41 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:25:55pm

What's in the affidavit is only the tip of the iceberg. I'm sure there's a lot more going on.

42 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:26:02pm

re: #40 RogueOne

Those old people with their crazy music and lousy driving!

Some columnist had an idea a while back--the boomers, as they age, will voluntarily surrender their drivers' licenses in exchange for all the drugs they want.

43 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:26:08pm

re: #29 WindUpBird

teenagers being in jail for 6-7 years is what I was referring to.

Well, if they were adults it would be different. With hacker kids what I tend to favor is sentencing as a juvenile with release at 21 at most. With sex offenders I favor a blended sentence that only lets them out if they are deemed rehabilitated and unlikely to reoffend. If they are still deemed a serious risk at 21 or if they get in serious trouble when in detention, then the adult portion of their sentence kicks in and they go to prison for as long as possible.

44 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:26:16pm

re: #36 Slap

True enough, but I'm going to reserve judgment. An awful lot of folks over 21 have been engaging in amped-up immature stupidity for a while now -- sadly, it's no longer the domain of the teens...

oh I guarantee there are adults doing it as well, and yeah, scare the shit out of them, toss them in jail for a few months. They're all disaffected nerds! Put them in jail for a WEEK and they'll have a panic attack the next time they see HTML ;-)

Save years in prison for people who do stuff that warrants years in prison.

45 RogueOne  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:26:37pm

re: #42 SanFranciscoZionist

Some columnist had an idea a while back--the boomers, as they age, will voluntarily surrender their drivers' licenses in exchange for all the drugs they want.

I'd vote for that.

46 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:26:45pm

re: #43 Dark_Falcon

Well, if they were adults it would be different. With hacker kids what I tend to favor is sentencing as a juvenile with release at 21 at most. With sex offenders I favor a blended sentence that only lets them out if they are deemed rehabilitated and unlikely to reoffend. If they are still deemed a serious risk at 21 or if they get in serious trouble when in detention, then the adult portion of their sentence kicks in and they go to prison for as long as possible.

sorry, i don't believe screwing with a botnet warrants ruining a kid's life

47 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:27:02pm

re: #42 SanFranciscoZionist

Some columnist had an idea a while back--the boomers, as they age, will voluntarily surrender their drivers' licenses in exchange for all the drugs they want.

lol

48 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:27:11pm

re: #37 WindUpBird

DF brought up kids being in jail until 21, not me, I was going off his statement!

no hyperbole, just like a statement ands then a response

weird, I know...

in fact, totally wacky that I compare prison penalties, nobody ever does that!

I must be totally zany and nuts, look out!

Sorry if I got you any flak, WUB.

49 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:27:41pm

re: #38 Walter L. Newton

Except in this case... some who can't do the time, won't be doing the time, since they have tutored their sycophants that there is nothing illegal in their little games.

Sorry, I'm not following you. Do you mean to say criminals won't be prosecuted because said criminals don't believe they've committed any crime?

50 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:29:30pm

re: #46 WindUpBird

sorry, i don't believe screwing with a botnet warrants ruining a kid's life

That's why I said "at most". In most cases, a 5-6 sentence is unneeded and unwarranted. For non-ringleaders, I'd say an appropriate term would be 6 months to a year.

51 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:30:26pm

re: #49 Slumbering Behemoth

Sorry, I'm not following you. Do you mean to say criminals won't be prosecuted because said criminals don't believe they've committed any crime?

I'm talking about the bot jockeys who have been told by their Overlords that they are not doing anything illegal. The Overlords won't go to jail.

52 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:32:40pm

re: #46 WindUpBird

What consequences would you suggest? House arrest? Real harm was done, Paypal is no blog site. Interfering with commerce as in Paypal or BofA is very significant, if "white collar" crime.

53 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:32:41pm

re: #51 Walter L. Newton

I'm talking about the bot jockeys who have been told by their Overlords that they are not doing anything illegal. The Overlords won't go to jail.

Ah, I see your argument. The people who sent the kids on that path won't be prosecuted, due to the difficulties in making out a charge of incitement in the US. That's why you use RICO. You call those hacks a criminal conspiracy, and that sets the bar for charges a good bit lower.

54 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:32:44pm

re: #51 Walter L. Newton

Ah, okay. Thank you, I was a bit confused there for a moment.

55 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:34:57pm

re: #35 Slumbering Behemoth

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. Pretty simple.

...or don't get raised by absentee and abusive adults and then develop a warped world view that leads you to do nihilistic and introverted things like harrass websites. Don't have an unmedicated anxiety disorder. Don't have unmedicated clinical depression.

Sorry, I knew the EXACT sortsa kids in high school who would be pulling this sorta shit. I saw where they lived, I played in bands with them. They were swapping pirated games and committing petty theft and vandalizing BBSes. They were like pidgin Anon. And to the last one, they all had horrible home lifes and no guidance, so I just sorta get turned off by the whole giddy send 'em all to prison thing.

The Bruce Sterling article CJ posted is my favorite observation on this whole phenomenon of why people root for wikileaks and anon, where the ideas come from and what it means.

56 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:35:22pm

re: #48 Dark_Falcon

Sorry if I got you any flak, WUB.

oh I don't care, I just want Walter to acknowledge that it wasn't hyperbole ;-)

57 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:36:55pm

re: #52 Rightwingconspirator

What consequences would you suggest? House arrest? Real harm was done, Paypal is no blog site. Interfering with commerce as in Paypal or BofA is very significant, if "white collar" crime.

for a 15 year old? or a 25 year old?

And are we talking about a guy who's working in IT, has full knowledge of consequences, rooting computers and doing a lot of damage? or some kid who was told on irc to aim a script at a site?

Lots of questions, you know?

58 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:37:20pm

re: #55 WindUpBird

I'm not giddy. When someone commits a crime and gets caught, there will be punishment. It's that simple. No giddiness about it.

59 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:37:24pm

re: #52 Rightwingconspirator
An example or three
[Link: news.bostonherald.com...]
[Link: www.seattlepi.com...]
[Link: www.people.com...]

60 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:38:17pm

re: #58 Slumbering Behemoth

I'm not giddy. When someone commits a crime and gets caught, there will be punishment. It's that simple. No giddiness about it.

when i hear the term "club fed", it rings a little weird to my ears ;-)

61 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:38:46pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

Ah, I see your argument. The people who sent the kids on that path won't be prosecuted, due to the difficulties in making out a charge of incitement in the US. That's why you use RICO. You call those hacks a criminal conspiracy, and that sets the bar for charges a good bit lower.

It would truly be a landmark moment if they could actually convict anybody in this on RICO charges.

62 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:38:51pm

re: #60 WindUpBird

though that's just a general observation on the thread, that's not you specifically

63 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:40:01pm

re: #58 Slumbering Behemoth

There shouldn't be punishment, though. There is not virtue to punishment beyond the very, very small amount of deterrent provided. There should, instead, be rehabilitation.

That we've basically given up on it doesn't mean it shouldn't actually be the goal. That we've given up on it is one of the main reasons we incarcerate a higher percentage of our citizens than any other nation on the planet.

That is a huge, expensive, and vital problem. We really should address it.

64 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:40:24pm

re: #57 WindUpBird

This is a crime not a prank.

65 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:41:24pm

re: #61 000G

It would truly be a landmark moment if they could actually convict anybody in this on RICO charges.

yeha, that seems, uh whaddayacall it, HIGHLY UNLIKELY


they'll catch some people, they'll scare them by sending maybe a couple to jail for a bit.

This guy WAS an adult, and he broke into a VP candidate's mail, and he essentially just got a halfway house sentence, looks like [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]


So i have a REALLY hard time imagining that the book till be hurled overhand at a bunch of script kiddies. Maybe adults that root computers will get some time.

66 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:42:04pm

re: #63 Obdicut

There shouldn't be punishment, though. There is not virtue to punishment beyond the very, very small amount of deterrent provided. There should, instead, be rehabilitation.

That we've basically given up on it doesn't mean it shouldn't actually be the goal. That we've given up on it is one of the main reasons we incarcerate a higher percentage of our citizens than any other nation on the planet.

That is a huge, expensive, and vital problem. We really should address it.

this forever

67 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:42:27pm

re: #57 WindUpBird

are we talking about a guy who's working in IT, has full knowledge of consequences,

Ignorance of the "consequences" doesn't mitigate if a crime was committed

THAT a crime was committed is the only criterea

68 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:42:32pm

By the way: the guy who takes credit for the DDoS attack on 4chan?: this guy.

69 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:42:48pm

re: #64 Rightwingconspirator

This is a crime not a prank.

it is a crime AND a prank.

Vandalism is a crime. Also often a prank! Blocking doors closed, moving cars around. Crimes! Also pranks.

70 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:42:50pm

re: #65 WindUpBird

There is a false logic in comparing sentences from unrelated crimes. Or unrelated circumstances.

71 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:43:02pm

re: #63 Obdicut

You and I both know that's not how the system works, but I do agree that rehabilitation is the better option in some cases.

72 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:43:17pm

re: #64 Rightwingconspirator

This is a crime not a prank.

Just some wayward "Yutes!"
/

73 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:44:06pm

re: #67 sattv4u2


are we talking about a guy who's working in IT, has full knowledge of consequences,

Ignorance of the "consequences" doesn't mitigate if a crime was committed

THAT a crime was committed is the only criterea

did you miss the part where I was comparing a minor to an adult, and someone rooting systems to someone running scripts?

Do you know what "rooting" even is? ;-)

74 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:45:11pm

re: #70 Rightwingconspirator

There is a false logic in comparing sentences from unrelated crimes. Or unrelated circumstances.

Do you really think a script kiddie deserves a great deal of jail time? be serious ;-)

75 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:45:15pm

re: #69 WindUpBird

it is a crime AND a prank.

Vandalism is a crime. Also often a prank! Blocking doors closed, moving cars around. Crimes! Also pranks.

They crossed into different territory because they were attacking financial institutions. There are some "pranks" you could play on banks that will get you lots and lots of jail time.

76 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:46:23pm

Related:

Youtube Video
77 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:46:32pm

re: #73 WindUpBird

did you miss the part where I was comparing a minor to an adult, and someone rooting systems to someone running scripts?

Do you know what "rooting" even is? ;-)

Don't be condescending
You can't pull it off

"minors" CAN (and do) get charged in Big Boy Court, depending on the crime

78 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:46:40pm

re: #75 Killgore Trout

They crossed into different territory because they were attacking financial institutions. There are some "pranks" you could play on banks that will get you lots and lots of jail time.

This misses the point entirely, being a script kiddie is not something worth ruining lives over

79 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:47:39pm

re: #78 WindUpBird

This misses the point entirely, being a script kiddie is not something worth ruining lives over

The simplest point would be "Don't be a script kiddie".

80 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:47:50pm

re: #71 Slumbering Behemoth

The system doesn't work. The system is terribly, terribly broken. Anytime someone is put in prison because they're being 'punished', we're fucking up. We're spending a goddamn fortune fucking up, too.

The organizers of these attacks should be sought after and caught. The script kiddies are pointless to go after. It will cost us a fortune; it will cost far more money than they can ever do in damages.

81 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:48:21pm

re: #63 Obdicut

There shouldn't be punishment, though. There is not virtue to punishment beyond the very, very small amount of deterrent provided. There should, instead, be rehabilitation.

That we've basically given up on it doesn't mean it shouldn't actually be the goal. That we've given up on it is one of the main reasons we incarcerate a higher percentage of our citizens than any other nation on the planet.

That is a huge, expensive, and vital problem. We really should address it.

If you're talking about imprisonment in general, the first duty is to punishment, not rehabilitation and that's how it should be. Rehabilitation is secondary, but not everyone can be rehabilitated either.

I don't accept that these are poor abused kids who can't help themselves as Windy suggested. They know completely well what the consequences are for what they did. If they're minors, it's a little different, and I don't know if their parents will be held responsible. They should in some way, but if they're over 18, they are fully responsible.

82 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:48:48pm

re: #77 sattv4u2

Don't be condescending
You can't pull it off

"minors" CAN (and do) get charged in Big Boy Court, depending on the crime


uh..? See, that's what THIS WHOLE CONVERSATION HAS BEEN ABOUT, proportion of charges and sentencing for computer crimes

83 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:48:50pm

re: #80 Obdicut

The organizers of these attacks should be sought after and caught.

Absolutely.

84 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:48:53pm

re: #78 WindUpBird

This misses the point entirely, being a script kiddie is not something worth ruining lives over

Sorry but they can't be allowed to fuck with financial institutions.

85 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:49:18pm

re: #79 Slumbering Behemoth

The simplest point would be "Don't be a script kiddie".

well of course. But they exist. because they have shitty parents.

Kids don't raise themselves

And now we have to deal with them! I'd prefer if that were done humanely

86 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:49:48pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

Sorry but they can't be allowed to fuck with financial institutions.

Nobody is saying that they should be allowed

Do you think throwing them in jail for years is a wise move?

87 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:50:27pm

re: #82 WindUpBird

uh..? See, that's what THIS WHOLE CONVERSATION HAS BEEN ABOUT, proportion of charges and sentencing for computer crimes

Read up on InterState Commerce Law

This isn't "A" "kid" looking at someONE's e-mail

88 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:50:52pm

re: #85 WindUpBird

I'd prefer if that were done humanely

Well, I don't think anyone is going to get their typing fingers cut off.

89 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:51:09pm

Even when I was 14, I'm pretty sure I would have realized that using my computer to attack the Bank of America website might not be smart.

I agree that it would probably be overkill to give underage kids jail time. But when the FBI and international police get involved, somebody's going to end up being made an example.

90 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:51:14pm

re: #81 marjoriemoon

If you're talking about imprisonment in general, the first duty is to punishment, not rehabilitation and that's how it should be.

Absolutely not. What is the virtue of punishment? What good comes from it?

I really don't care if they're poor abused kids or sniggering little assholes. What I care is the cost of prosecuting and imprisoning them being far, far more than the benefit.

I have argued very strongly that the notion some espouse that Anon is some amorphous anarchic group that doesn't have any 'leaders' and ideas simply spontaneously erupt inside it. There are definitely organized groups using Anon to do shit, there are individuals who drive these events.

They are the ones to find. They are the ones who it is worthwhile to prosecute. We do not have infinite time, space, and money for our law enforcement. We have to actually have priorities.

91 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:51:49pm

re: #86 WindUpBird

Nobody is saying that they should be allowed

Do you think throwing them in jail for years is a wise move?

Yeah,, lets just send them to bed an hour early with no milk and cookies one night

That'll learn them!

92 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:52:01pm

re: #90 Obdicut

I have argued very strongly that the notion some espouse that Anon is some amorphous anarchic group that doesn't have any 'leaders' and ideas simply spontaneously erupt inside it is wrong.

PIMF

93 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:52:48pm

re: #92 Obdicut

I knew what you meant. :)

94 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:53:02pm

re: #81 marjoriemoon

I don't accept that these are poor abused kids who can't help themselves as Windy suggested. They know completely well what the consequences are for what they did. If they're minors, it's a little different, and I don't know if their parents will be held responsible. They should in some way, but if they're over 18, they are fully responsible.

um, so how is it that they're minors and abused, and acting out because of poor guidance, but hold on they're not?

or is it your contention that children raise themselves?


Bottom line for me: if minors commit crimes, they are minors. They're not of the age of majority. That supersedes our notions of justice, because we're not talking about adults.

You've seen the way these anon dudes behave on youtube, right? with their masks and posters and internet memes and goofy chants? do they look like a bunch of 35 year olds to you?

95 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:55:25pm

A little older already, but still a good wake-up call: How Unique – and Trackable – Is Your Browser?

96 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:55:42pm

re: #94 WindUpBird

Bottom line for me: if minors commit crimes, they are minors. They're not of the age of majority

Again, incorrect

Depending on the crime, depending on the jurisdiction even minors can (and are) tried as adults

97 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:55:46pm

re: #91 sattv4u2

Yeah,, lets just send them to bed an hour early with no milk and cookies one night

That'll learn them!

Is there nothing in between?

98 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:55:48pm

re: #74 WindUpBird

Oh I think the script kiddies that do harm like this should certainly be punished. A Federal judge can sort out how much. In support of Wiki leaks? 12 to 18 months looks about right to me given the related legal precedents I found. Oh and they need to pay back all the cost, reparations. You also assume any significant jail time ruins their lives. By that logic no non violent teen crime would earn jail. That's wrong.

I do not cut them slack because it's the net. The net is no different than a store wall that gets tagged or worse. I see no reason to treat internet vandalism or attack scripts as anything less than other non violent crime.

99 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:56:57pm

re: #87 sattv4u2

Read up on InterState Commerce Law

This isn't "A" "kid" looking at someONE's e-mail

okay, so you're on the record that random scriptkiddie, one among hundreds and hundreds if not thousands no doubt, is doing something TOTALLY TERRIBLE AND WAY MAD FELONIOUS that is far worse than breaking into Palin's email.

Okay! Ya sound a little out of touch with this whole internet thing.


Personally, i think wanton breaking and entering in the digital realm and releasing emails is a far worse crime than pointing a script at a site to clog its traffic in aggregate, but that's just me.

100 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:57:12pm

Well, I got some things that need to get done AWK. Peace out, y'all.

101 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:57:34pm

re: #97 SanFranciscoZionist

Is there nothing in between?

Absolutely

I haven't called for serious jail time here, have I?

102 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:57:47pm

re: #13 Killgore Trout

Despite what Barret Brown claims in his official Anon press releases...


That really is one of the shittiest aspects of this whole thing. The leadership perpetuates the myth that the kids who actually carry out the ordered attacks aren't doing anything illegal. They are fucking up a lot of young kids and their families.

All the more reason, IMO, to "go after" these folks, so that people will then be informed that yes, this sort of stuff is indeed illegal, and can land you in a ton of hot water.

103 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:57:51pm

re: #98 Rightwingconspirator

Oh I think the script kiddies that do harm like this should certainly be punished. A Federal judge can sort out how much. In support of Wiki leaks? 12 to 18 months looks about right to me given the related legal precedents I found. Oh and they need to pay back all the cost, reparations. You also assume any significant jail time ruins their lives. By that logic no non violent teen crime would earn jail. That's wrong.

I do not cut them slack because it's the net. The net is no different than a store wall that gets tagged or worse. I see no reason to treat internet vandalism or attack scripts as anything less than other non violent crime.

How long would we send a teenager to jail for, after he, say, broke a window at a BofA branch? For defacing a BofA advertisement?

Give 'em community service, a lot of it, and probation, and scare the hell out of them.

104 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:58:35pm

re: #89 Charles

That is why we have "youth offender" facilities. Which look entirely appropriate to me.I doubt they ruin all those lives.

105 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:58:40pm

re: #96 sattv4u2

Bottom line for me: if minors commit crimes, they are minors. They're not of the age of majority

Again, incorrect

Depending on the crime, depending on the jurisdiction even minors can (and are) tried as adults

8rubs temples, sighs* uh, yeah. Okay, see, I never denied that, no shit minors can be charged as adults. I KNEW A COUPLE, lol.


You're making straw men so fast I think you could field a football team with them, it's all very impressive but it's wasting my time

106 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:58:50pm

re: #101 sattv4u2

Absolutely

I haven't called for serious jail time here, have I?

No idea. This stuff bores me, so I'm skimming. Did WUB suggest the milk and cookies?

107 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 2:59:29pm

re: #103 SanFranciscoZionist

If they were first offenders, maybe.
The judge can sort that out.

108 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:00:00pm

re: #86 WindUpBird

Nobody is saying that they should be allowed

Do you think throwing them in jail for years is a wise move?

Yes, very.

109 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:00:38pm

re: #90 Obdicut

Absolutely not. What is the virtue of punishment? What good comes from it?

I really don't care if they're poor abused kids or sniggering little assholes. What I care is the cost of prosecuting and imprisoning them being far, far more than the benefit.

I have argued very strongly that the notion some espouse that Anon is some amorphous anarchic group that doesn't have any 'leaders' and ideas simply spontaneously erupt inside it. There are definitely organized groups using Anon to do shit, there are individuals who drive these events.

They are the ones to find. They are the ones who it is worthwhile to prosecute. We do not have infinite time, space, and money for our law enforcement. We have to actually have priorities.

If you're talking about punishment in general (what I said) it's called justice. You are punished for a crime you commit and deserve that punishment.

I don't know about these kinds of crimes. You're right that the leaders should pay the brunt of it, but they can't coordinate these attacks, as I understand it, unless they have a horde of minions doing it. I would be happy if a few of them were made an example of to teach the others how "fun" anarchy really is in the real world.

Maybe if some of these kids were punished by their parents for wrongdoings as they grew up they wouldn't be growing up thinking the world owes them something.

110 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:00:50pm

re: #97 SanFranciscoZionist

Is there nothing in between?

hah, have fun with Satt and the discussion he seems to be having entirely in the imaginary realm, I'm sure his hallucinations will be quite entertaining once he's peaking

I gotta get back to work, I don't get holidays off :D

111 Gus  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:00:50pm

The age range of these specific hackers has neither been released nor determined. It seems as though a meme has been constructed that they are minors who shouldn't be prosecuted as adults. Clearly the Federal government along with the FBI finds these activities serious enough to pursue evidence and eventually file charges against whomever can be identified. Otherwise, there is no proof that these individuals can be classified as minors.

112 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:01:32pm

Give the "leadership" of Anon jail time.
Give the script kiddies community service and probation with no internet for a time.

113 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:01:57pm

re: #106 SanFranciscoZionist

No idea. This stuff bores me, so I'm skimming. Did WUB suggest the milk and cookies?

His "it;'s a PRANK" mantra sort of gave it away!

114 Locker  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:02:07pm

They raided a hosting company to get at two of their servers.

From my years on the net it's not very common for an underground IRC channel to be hosted on a legal server. Almost every place like this is hosted on a "botnet" infected machine.

The article makes mention of the same type of thing on a different server:

One IP address was initially traced to Host Europe, a Germany-based Internet service provider. A search warrant executed by the German Federal Criminal Police revealed that the “server at issue” belonged to a man from Herrlisheim, France. However, an analysis of the server showed that “root-level access” to the machine “appeared to come from an administrator logging in from” another IP address.

115 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:03:07pm

re: #110 WindUpBird

hah, have fun with Satt and the discussion he seems to be having entirely in the imaginary realm, I'm sure his hallucinations will be quite entertaining once he's peaking

I gotta get back to work, I don't get holidays off :D

Okay Mr Its A Prank!

116 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:03:50pm

re: #108 Killgore Trout

Yes, very.

Why?

It's only a PRANK!

117 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:05:51pm

Just for perspective on punishment and the internet crimes committed-
[Link: www.itsecurity.com...]
Top 10 Most Famous Hackers of All Time

118 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:06:36pm

re: #94 WindUpBird

um, so how is it that they're minors and abused, and acting out because of poor guidance, but hold on they're not?

or is it your contention that children raise themselves?

Bottom line for me: if minors commit crimes, they are minors. They're not of the age of majority. That supersedes our notions of justice, because we're not talking about adults.

You've seen the way these anon dudes behave on youtube, right? with their masks and posters and internet memes and goofy chants? do they look like a bunch of 35 year olds to you?

A lot of kids go astray. A lot of kids have no guidance, live in poverty and commit far worse crimes that shutting down BoA for 5 minutes. I believe in government intervention to help these kinds of kids when they're young. We had two schools here in Miami (shut down by Governor Bush years ago) that targeted at risk children and 80% of them went on to college while those same kids would have been doing serious prison time if they didn't have that kind of help.

Maybe I didn't make it clear, but minors versus adults, with any crime, is a completely different issue and why our prison system tries to rehabilitate minors more so than adults.

As far as morons on the internet, I have been struck speechless by what I thought were 15 year old morons who turned out to be 30 year old morons. Look at the stalker sites.

119 allegro  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:06:49pm

Likely a stupid question but... what actual harm was done to BofA and PayPal as a result of the DDOS? Was data stolen? Was there a significant loss of income? It may help to understand actual losses to determine the seriousness of the crime.

120 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:07:56pm

re: #103 SanFranciscoZionist

How long would we send a teenager to jail for, after he, say, broke a window at a BofA branch? For defacing a BofA advertisement?

Give 'em community service, a lot of it, and probation, and scare the hell out of them.

Not much at all, if any

Community service at most, ESPECIALLY 1st time offenders

But a window and/or sign costs very little to replace/ fix

How much $$$ was lost if a BoA or PayPal is down even for a relatively short time?

I'll betchya it's more than a plate of glass!

121 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:09:28pm

re: #96 sattv4u2

Bottom line for me: if minors commit crimes, they are minors. They're not of the age of majority

Again, incorrect

Depending on the crime, depending on the jurisdiction even minors can (and are) tried as adults

Absolutely. I'm not sure I exactly agree with that, but it's true.

I think there should be a separate institution to deal with these kinds of kids where they can be held until 25 maybe and possibly rehabilitated. But there are people who are psychopaths who really can't be controlled and I think should be removed from society.

122 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:09:47pm

re: #118 marjoriemoon

As far as morons on the internet, I have been struck speechless by what I thought were 15 year old morons who turned out to be 30 year old morons. Look at the stalker sites.

Why should it surprise you?

Those are the same "30 year old morons" you encounter in the mall,, at a restaurant,,, on the highway!!

:)

123 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:11:13pm

re: #113 sattv4u2

His "it;'s a PRANK" mantra sort of gave it away!

So, I misread between your lines, but you feel you're reading between WUBs with perfect clarity?

This was a serious stupid thing to do, but if a kid is in his mid-teens, and was not an organizer, I can't see locking him up until 21. Or her. (Do girls do this?)

A short stint in juvie, community service, probation, restitution, these I can see.

124 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:12:12pm

re: #123 SanFranciscoZionist

So, I misread between your lines, but you feel you're reading between WUBs with perfect clarity?

This was a serious stupid thing to do, but if a kid is in his mid-teens, and was not an organizer, I can't see locking him up until 21. Or her. (Do girls do this?)

A short stint in juvie, community service, probation, restitution, these I can see.

This.

125 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:13:08pm

re: #123 SanFranciscoZionist

So, I misread between your lines, but you feel you're reading between WUBs with perfect clarity?

This was a serious stupid thing to do, but if a kid is in his mid-teens, and was not an organizer, I can't see locking him up until 21. Or her. (Do girls do this?)

A short stint in juvie, community service, probation, restitution, these I can see.


Again, him not even saying it's CRIME until he was browbeaten into it sorta gave it away!

((and even then, he had to say it's a crime AND a PRANK!)

126 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:13:43pm

re: #120 sattv4u2

Not much at all, if any

Community service at most, ESPECIALLY 1st time offenders

But a window and/or sign costs very little to replace/ fix

How much $$$ was lost if a BoA or PayPal is down even for a relatively short time?

I'll betchya it's more than a plate of glass!

Probably, although I don't know how much. Allegro is asking the same question above.

127 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:15:26pm

Somewhat on topic:

Gov. Haley Barbour today suspended the prison terms for two Scott County sisters sentenced to life for an $11 armed robbery in Scott County.

OK, they were armed, but the amount of harm done doesn't enter into the sentencing, apparently. I'm not sure what did in this case, but I have a sneaking suspicion these women aren't white. Whoops, .21 seconds on Google confirms that.

128 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:15:40pm

re: #125 sattv4u2

Again, him not even saying it's CRIME until he was browbeaten into it sorta gave it away!

((and even then, he had to say it's a crime AND a PRANK!)

I can see that the use of the word 'prank' is upsetting you.

129 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:17:02pm

re: #127 wrenchwench

Somewhat on topic:

OK, they were armed, but the amount of harm done doesn't enter into the sentencing, apparently. I'm not sure what did in this case, but I have a sneaking suspicion these women aren't white. Whoops, .21 seconds on Google confirms that.

I don't understand our sentencing procedures.
11 dollar armed robbery gets them life.
Killing someone can get you 5 years.
WTF

130 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:17:15pm

re: #128 SanFranciscoZionist

I can see that the use of the word 'prank' is upsetting you.

No. The cavalier attitude of attacking a financial institutions web site did that!

Charles was more eloquent than I in #89

Even when I was 14, I'm pretty sure I would have realized that using my computer to attack the Bank of America website might not be smart.

131 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:18:06pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

Sorry but they can't be allowed to fuck with financial institutions.

Concur. A custodial sentence is warranted, if only by the need to make examples out of some of them.

132 allegro  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:18:22pm

re: #129 Varek Raith

I don't understand our sentencing procedures.
11 dollar armed robbery gets them life.
Killing someone can get you 5 years.
WTF

Committing fraud and theft on a global scale gets you multi-million dollar bonuses. WTF indeed.

133 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:19:19pm

re: #129 Varek Raith

I don't understand our sentencing procedures.
11 dollar armed robbery gets them life.
Killing someone can get you 5 years.
WTF

And here in Georgia we just had a law officer killed by a man that has been arrested 18 previous times in the past 11 years

[Link: www.ajc.com...]

134 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:20:23pm

re: #98 Rightwingconspirator

Oh I think the script kiddies that do harm like this should certainly be punished. A Federal judge can sort out how much. In support of Wiki leaks? 12 to 18 months looks about right to me given the related legal precedents I found. Oh and they need to pay back all the cost, reparations. You also assume any significant jail time ruins their lives. By that logic no non violent teen crime would earn jail. That's wrong.

I do not cut them slack because it's the net. The net is no different than a store wall that gets tagged or worse. I see no reason to treat internet vandalism or attack scripts as anything less than other non violent crime.

Agreed.

135 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:21:04pm

re: #130 sattv4u2

No. The cavalier attitude of attacking a financial institutions web site did that!

Charles was more eloquent than I in #89

Even when I was 14, I'm pretty sure I would have realized that using my computer to attack the Bank of America website might not be smart.

Sure. This was a criminal act, it was stupid, wrong, illegal, and did I mention, stupid?

I do, however, think that serious jail time would be an inappropriate response in the case of a hypothetical teenage perp who joined the mob, but was not a leader or organizer.

136 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:21:07pm

re: #129 Varek Raith

I don't understand our sentencing procedures.
11 dollar armed robbery gets them life.
Killing someone can get you 5 years.
WTF

Criminal justice can be such a crapshoot, but this case is clearly one of the most egregious.

137 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:21:35pm

re: #119 allegro

Likely a stupid question but... what actual harm was done to BofA and PayPal as a result of the DDOS? Was data stolen? Was there a significant loss of income? It may help to understand actual losses to determine the seriousness of the crime.

So they should do nothing and then when they steal your SSN and your identity, through them in jail? Too late.

138 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:21:40pm

re: #131 Dark_Falcon

Concur. A custodial sentence is warranted, if only by the need to make examples out of some of them.

The legal system will take care of it and take into account the legal age status. The best deterrent is a series of high profile convictions.

139 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:22:47pm

re: #136 wrenchwench

Criminal justice can be such a crapshoot, but this case is clearly one of the most egregious.

Registration required to see the story.
phooey.

140 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:23:24pm

re: #135 SanFranciscoZionist

Sure. This was a criminal act, it was stupid, wrong, illegal, and did I mention, stupid?

I do, however, think that serious jail time would be an inappropriate response in the case of a hypothetical teenage perp who joined the mob, but was not a leader or organizer.

And again, I have never once called for "serious jail time" for a teenager perp

141 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:25:01pm

re: #139 reine.de.tout

Registration required to see the story.
phooey.

Just give me your Social Security AND Credit Card numbers and I'll take care of it for you

142 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:25:50pm

re: #109 marjoriemoon

If you're talking about punishment in general (what I said) it's called justice. You are punished for a crime you commit and deserve that punishment.

What is the virtue of this 'justice'? How does it benefit anyone, in any way?

I don't know about these kinds of crimes. You're right that the leaders should pay the brunt of it, but they can't coordinate these attacks, as I understand it, unless they have a horde of minions doing it. I would be happy if a few of them were made an example of to teach the others how "fun" anarchy really is in the real world.

Why do you believe this would work?

Maybe if some of these kids were punished by their parents for wrongdoings as they grew up they wouldn't be growing up thinking the world owes them something.

Why do you believe this? Most of the teenage criminals I've met are the ones from the most abusive households.

"Punishment" on its own has no virtue that I have ever seen. Punishment given by a trusted parent may; but far more important there is simply the influence of the trusted parent's values in the first place.

143 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:26:36pm

re: #140 sattv4u2

And again, I have never once called for "serious jail time" for a teenager perp

Your 91 reads as follows:

re: #86 WindUpBird

Nobody is saying that they should be allowed

Do you think throwing them in jail for years is a wise move?

Yeah,, lets just send them to bed an hour early with no milk and cookies one night

That'll learn them!

I have not said that you called for serious jail time, HOWEVER, you responded as above to a question about whether you thought it was inappropriate. So your indignation that I asked if there was nothing in between--which I would favor--seems a little misplaced.

But by all means, go on being indignant. Clearly, I am slandering you.

144 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:26:51pm

re: #140 sattv4u2

And again, I have never once called for "serious jail time" for a teenager perp

I didn't see it if you did.

And like you, I'm a bit chagrined at the number of folks who seem dismissive of this as a "prank".

Maybe that's how some of the younger involved ones thought of it.
But the ones pulling the strings surely knew this was no "prank".
And those young 'uns somehow need to get a clue - maybe FBI showing up and talking to their parents would be just the ticket.

145 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:28:00pm

re: #138 Killgore Trout

The legal system will take care of it and take into account the legal age status. The best deterrent is a series of high profile convictions.

True.

146 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:28:33pm

re: #143 SanFranciscoZionist

So your indignation that I asked if there was nothing in between--which I would favor--seems a little misplaced.

My indignation when you asked if theres nothing in between??

My EXACT answer was

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

147 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:29:34pm

re: #144 reine.de.tout

And those young 'uns somehow need to get a clue - maybe FBI showing up and talking to their parents would be just the ticket.

Maybe. Maybe not. Sure would cost us a shitload of money to have this happen. And while that was going on, those FBI agents can't be doing other things.

That is my main concern. Is this an effective use of law enforcement and legal resources? We really don't have an infinite amount of either.

148 allegro  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:29:37pm

re: #137 marjoriemoon

So they should do nothing and then when they steal your SSN and your identity, through them in jail? Too late.

That's one helluva leap. I am asking about the ACTUAL damages done by the DDOS attacks in this particular instance. One thing does not necessarily lead to another.

149 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:29:52pm

re: #139 reine.de.tout

Registration required to see the story.
phooey.

Sorry. And I can't pull up a cached version. Here's a start:


Bob Herbert


Jamie was 21 at the time and Gladys just 19. But what has happened to them takes your breath away.

They were convicted by a jury and handed the most draconian sentences imaginable — short of the death penalty. Each was sentenced to two consecutive life terms in state prison, and they have been imprisoned ever since. Jamie is now 38 and seriously ill. Both of her kidneys have failed. Gladys is 36.

This is Mississippi we’re talking about, a place that in many ways has not advanced much beyond the Middle Ages.

The authorities did not even argue that the Scott sisters had committed the robbery. They were accused of luring two men into a trap, in which the men had their wallets taken by acquaintances of the sisters, one of whom had a shotgun.

It was a serious crime. But the case against the sisters was extremely shaky. In any event, even if they were guilty, the punishment is so wildly out of proportion to the offense that it should not be allowed to stand.

Three teenagers pleaded guilty to robbing the men. They ranged in age from 14 to 18. And in their initial statements to investigators, they did not implicate the Scott sisters.

But a plea deal was arranged in which the teens were required to swear that the women were involved, and two of the teens were obliged, as part of the deal, to testify against the sisters in court.

Howard Patrick, who was 14 at the time of the robbery, said that the pressure from the authorities to implicate the sisters began almost immediately. He testified, “They said if I didn’t participate with them, they would send me to Parchman and make me out a female.”

He was referring to Mississippi State Prison, which was once the notoriously violent Parchman prison farm. The lawyer questioning the boy said, “In other words, they would send you to Parchman and you would get raped, right?”

“Yes, sir,” the boy said.

The teens were sentenced to eight years in prison each, and they were released after serving just two years.

This is a case that should be repugnant to anyone with the slightest interest in justice. The right thing to do at this point is to get the sisters out of prison as quickly as possible and ensure that Jamie gets proper medical treatment.

A number of people have taken up the sisters’ cause, including Ben Jealous, the president of the N.A.A.C.P., who is trying to help secure a pardon from Gov. Haley Barbour of Mississippi. “It makes you sick to think that this sort of thing can happen,” he said. “That these women should be kept in prison until they die — well, that’s just so utterly inhumane.”

I have no idea why the authorities were so dead set on implicating the Scott sisters in the crime and sending them away for life, while letting the teens who unquestionably committed the robbery get off with much lighter sentences.

[...]

150 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:32:28pm

re: #149 wrenchwench

Sorry. And I can't pull up a cached version. Here's a start:

Wow.
Oh, yes, I would echo your "one of the most egregious".

151 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:32:47pm

re: #147 Obdicut

maybe FBI showing up and talking to their parents would be just the ticket.

Maybe. Maybe not. Sure would cost us a shitload of money to have this happen. And while that was going on, those FBI agents can't be doing other things.

That is my main concern. Is this an effective use of law enforcement and legal resources? We really don't have an infinite amount of either.

Umm,,no

Two field agents from that city showing up at the parents house for a 1-2 hour "chat" would NOT "cost us a shitload of money"

152 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:32:54pm

re: #146 sattv4u2

So your indignation that I asked if there was nothing in between--which I would favor--seems a little misplaced.

My indignation when you asked if theres nothing in between??

My EXACT answer was

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Except that when you were asked if you favored it, you had already...OK. I'm backing away from this.

153 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:33:34pm

re: #152 SanFranciscoZionist

Except that when you were asked if you favored it, you had already...OK. I'm backing away from this.

I had already what?

Please show me where I called for teens to do serious jail time!

154 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:33:47pm

re: #142 Obdicut

What is the virtue of this 'justice'? How does it benefit anyone, in any way?

Why do you believe this would work?

Why do you believe this? Most of the teenage criminals I've met are the ones from the most abusive households.

"Punishment" on its own has no virtue that I have ever seen. Punishment given by a trusted parent may; but far more important there is simply the influence of the trusted parent's values in the first place.

What is the virtue of justice? Someone robs from you, murders someone in your family and you don't expect them to be punished? Punishment is the debt you pay for breaking the law. That and fines, usually. That's what our prison system is about. Or you feel that criminals shouldn't be imprisoned?

It's about consequences for your actions. If there are no consequences (in this case punishment) than we can kiss society goodbye.

If you can get a kid before they're 18, maybe 21, there may be some hope for rehabilitation, but after that you're pretty much cooked. Your personality is what it is and it won't change much.

155 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:33:51pm

re: #151 sattv4u2

Two field agents from that city showing up at the parents house for a 1-2 hour "chat" would NOT "cost us a shitload of money"

For just one person, no.

For all the script kiddies involved, yes it would. Or even for a significant percentage, it would.

156 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:33:55pm

re: #148 allegro

That's one helluva leap. I am asking about the ACTUAL damages done by the DDOS attacks in this particular instance. One thing does not necessarily lead to another.

It's vandalism. It's a property crime. It's sort of important to know how much actual damage was done.

157 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:34:22pm

re: #150 reine.de.tout

Wow.
Oh, yes, I would echo your "one of the most egregious".

Barbour has suspended their sentences, but geez, they've spent 16 years in jail....

158 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:34:58pm

re: #142 Obdicut

Okay you see the flaws in the system we have. But this is not the moment to upend our judiciary. This society has decided that jail is appropriate punishment for criminal acts. We have youth offender jails for minors. By and large violent teens are tried as adults. I'm not afraid any script fiidie is going to supermax.

BTW Script Kiddie sure is a term loaded to diminish the perception of a young criminals ability to disrupt.

This equation is imperfect but largely effective
Jail time = deterrent.

159 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:35:27pm

re: #155 Obdicut

For just one person, no.

For all the script kiddies involved, yes it would. Or even for a significant percentage, it would.

Again, NO

The FBI has field agebts in every major and most semi major towns in the USA

For a team (two agents,, one car) to drive to a house and talk with the parents, even 100 of them, for an hour or two, is,,, well,,, what they DO

They go talk to LOTS of people , EVERY day!

160 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:36:33pm

re: #148 allegro

That's one helluva leap. I am asking about the ACTUAL damages done by the DDOS attacks in this particular instance. One thing does not necessarily lead to another.

A friend of mine was threatened once, with a knife.
Now, she was not actually harmed, just threatened.
Although no harm came to her, some actions ( threatening people with knives ) are in themselves harmful to the the peaceful state of society that they are worth some penalty, even though no actual harm was done.

Don't you think so?

161 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:36:37pm

re: #153 sattv4u2

I had already what?

Please show me where I called for teens to do serious jail time!

I never said you did. You've denied it three times without being asked.

You did, however, respond with withering sarcasm to a direct question about whether you thought such jail time was appropriate.

162 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:36:57pm

re: #148 allegro

That's one helluva leap. I am asking about the ACTUAL damages done by the DDOS attacks in this particular instance. One thing does not necessarily lead to another.

What if they're pushing to see how far they can go?

There has to be some consequences with these actions. You can't shut down a banking institution and not have repercussions or you'll have... hmmmm... gee... anarchy.

163 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:36:57pm

re: #155 Obdicut

For just one person, no.

For all the script kiddies involved, yes it would. Or even for a significant percentage, it would.

How many people participate in something like this?

164 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:37:30pm

re: #156 SanFranciscoZionist

It's vandalism. It's a property crime. It's sort of important to know how much actual damage was done.

There's also a factor of how ,uch potential damage could be done as well. The disruption of financial services was fairly minimal this time but if the had succeed in taking down Visa or paypal it could make a real mess of international commerce. We can't wait for them to develop more effective tools and methods.

165 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:38:55pm

re: #154 marjoriemoon

What is the virtue of justice? Someone robs from you, murders someone in your family and you don't expect them to be punished?

I'm asking you what the virtue of that punishment is. So far, you haven't answered that question.

That and fines, usually. That's what our prison system is about. Or you feel that criminals shouldn't be imprisoned?

I feel that criminals should be dealt with in whatever way makes them least likely to commit crimes in the future. I do not think that punishment is in any way the best method of doing that. In addition, the day-to-day life of many criminals in the outside world is pretty fucking bad; punishing people who live in such a violent world is difficult to do without being inhumane.

Again: We incarcerate a larger percentage of our citizens than any other nation on earth ever has. One of the reasons for this is that punishment as deterrence simply doesn't work. I would much rather we explored options that do work, then punish for the sake of punishing.

I completely understand the human desire for vengeance. I don't think that we all have this desire means that it is a good to act on it.


If you can get a kid before they're 18, maybe 21, there may be some hope for rehabilitation, but after that you're pretty much cooked. Your personality is what it is and it won't change much.

This is not true.

166 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:39:01pm

re: #164 Killgore Trout

There's also a factor of how ,uch potential damage could be done as well. The disruption of financial services was fairly minimal this time but if the had succeed in taking down Visa or paypal it could make a real mess of international commerce. We can't wait for them to develop more effective tools and methods.

Also true. We're really just starting to generate the law that will go along with new technologies.

167 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:40:08pm

re: #161 SanFranciscoZionist

I never said you did. You've denied it three times without being asked.

You did, however, respond with withering sarcasm to a direct question about whether you thought such jail time was appropriate.

Where??

I made a sarcastic comment to the poster that insisted this was all a "prank"

168 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:40:20pm

re: #158 Rightwingconspirator

Okay you see the flaws in the system we have. But this is not the moment to upend our judiciary.

I agree. The thing is, going after all the script kiddies and making them do jail time would be upending our judiciary.


BTW Script Kiddie sure is a term loaded to diminish the perception of a young criminals ability to disrupt.

No, it's not, it's a term of contempt for them to differentiate them from real hackers.

This equation is imperfect but largely effective
Jail time = deterrent.

Reality says otherwise.

169 allegro  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:40:47pm

re: #160 reine.de.tout

A friend of mine was threatened once, with a knife.
Now, she was not actually harmed, just threatened.
Although no harm came to her, some actions ( threatening people with knives ) are in themselves harmful to the the peaceful state of society that they are worth some penalty, even though no actual harm was done.

Don't you think so?

A direct threat of violence is indeed harmful. A threat to security - if this was such a threat - of a major financial institution may be harmful - or perhaps it can be revealing a security lapse that can be improved. I am simply asking what ACTUAL damages were done, if any. No one seems to know.

170 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:41:42pm

re: #164 Killgore Trout

I just wish people were as fired up to prosecute the bankers who developed financial instruments that really did blow up the world economy.

171 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:42:36pm

A script kiddie is someone who uses a third party program to carry out their "hacks".
They have no real knowledge on how to do so without said program.
They are not hackers.

172 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:42:49pm

re: #170 Obdicut

I just wish people were as fired up to prosecute the bankers who developed financial instruments that really did blow up the world economy.

Yeha, but that takes understanding. This whole thread is all so "god damn kids! Grandpa smash!" i can't even believe it

I'd like to stay but it's just UGH, I can't

173 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:43:14pm

re: #170 Obdicut

I just wish people were as fired up to prosecute the bankers who developed financial instruments that really did blow up the world economy.

No argument from me on that.

174 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:44:13pm

re: #16 WindUpBird

well, the ones rooting for OMG PRISON for them

I'm one of those bleeding hearts who doens't think kids should go to prison ;-)

WUB--My daughter teaches these misguided youts in an county lock-up. She has had two separate instances where her pupils were 9 yr olds in for attempted murder. There is often a rapist in the class.

175 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:44:18pm

re: #173 Killgore Trout

No argument from me on that.

Dit
Toe

((but that doesn't negate what THIS is))

176 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:45:15pm

re: #167 sattv4u2

Where??

I made a sarcastic comment to the poster that insisted this was all a "prank"

For some of the participants, it probably was. Pranks can have horrible consequences.

I don't fully understand how riled up you seem to be at WUB over this. Just as you haven't called for long jail sentences, he hasn't called for kids to be allowed to take down financial institutions whenever they take a mind to. And he's clearly stated he favors different sentencing for minors screwing around, and an adult who better understands the consequences of his actions.

177 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:45:38pm

re: #174 Decatur Deb

WUB--My daughter teaches these misguided youts in an county lock-up. She has had two separate instances where her pupils were 9 yr olds in for attempted murder. There is often a rapist in the class.

Close friend has an adopted child

(fostered him at the age of 6,, adopted at the age of 11,,, kid now is in jail at the age of 17 with 9 felonies to his "credit")

178 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:46:29pm

re: #176 SanFranciscoZionist

For some of the participants, it probably was. Pranks can have horrible consequences.

I don't fully understand how riled up you seem to be at WUB over this. Just as you haven't called for long jail sentences, he hasn't called for kids to be allowed to take down financial institutions whenever they take a mind to. And he's clearly stated he favors different sentencing for minors screwing around, and an adult who better understands the consequences of his actions.

he dismisses it as a prank

179 lostlakehiker  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:46:32pm

re: #46 WindUpBird

sorry, i don't believe screwing with a botnet warrants ruining a kid's life

It surely warrants banning the kid from the internet for a few years. If they need it for school, tough. If they need it for work, tough. There's lots of work that can be done without accessing the internet, and lots of ways to get an education while abstaining from the internet. As to social chances, the internet is a two-edged sword. Being suspended from the net won't kill their chances in that arena either.

180 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:46:35pm

re: #169 allegro

A direct threat of violence is indeed harmful. A threat to security - if this was such a threat - of a major financial institution may be harmful - or perhaps it can be revealing a security lapse that can be improved. I am simply asking what ACTUAL damages were done, if any. No one seems to know.

My understanding is that what the attack hit was essentially the customer interface, rather than the financial systems of the bank itself. Certainly, they haven't suffered on the market.

181 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:47:19pm

re: #174 Decatur Deb

I used to work with autistic kids with rage problems and hyperviolent kids. We had a few attempted murders during the year. Including one really creepily-well-planned one.

However, we also had much, much better success rates than any juvie program anywhere.

[Link: orthogenicschool.uchicago.edu...]

182 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:48:16pm

Wifeys pulling into the garage

Gotta get dinner on the table

BBL

183 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:48:16pm

re: #177 sattv4u2

Close friend has an adopted child

(fostered him at the age of 6,, adopted at the age of 11,,, kid now is in jail at the age of 17 with 9 felonies to his "credit")

It stinks that prison is the only available answer to a very old question. (About half the kids in my elementary school were there at the convenience of the Juvenile Court.)

184 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:49:49pm

re: #165 Obdicut

I'm asking you what the virtue of that punishment is. So far, you haven't answered that question.

I feel that criminals should be dealt with in whatever way makes them least likely to commit crimes in the future. I do not think that punishment is in any way the best method of doing that. In addition, the day-to-day life of many criminals in the outside world is pretty fucking bad; punishing people who live in such a violent world is difficult to do without being inhumane.

Again: We incarcerate a larger percentage of our citizens than any other nation on earth ever has. One of the reasons for this is that punishment as deterrence simply doesn't work. I would much rather we explored options that do work, then punish for the sake of punishing.

I completely understand the human desire for vengeance. I don't think that we all have this desire means that it is a good to act on it.

This is not true.

I have tried my best to answer your question about the virtue of punishment and I've given you the best answer I can. I'll try again.

Punishment is for the victim, not the perpetrator because if it was up to the perpetrator, he wouldn't have to pay anything. He'd just go on being a criminal. Justice means that you have to pay for your actions and if you commit a crime, you have to pay with being punished. That is NOT vengeance. Vengeance was the electric chair, making a person unduly suffer. Before you start cutting down the U.S. justice system, I would also remind you that we take great care not to do cruel and unusual punishment. And we don't always get it right, for sure.

185 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:49:54pm

re: #183 Decatur Deb

It stinks that prison is the only available answer to a very old question. (About half the kids in my elementary school were there at the convenience of the Juvenile Court.)

Sad
he ran the entire gamut from probation, to community service, to house arrest, to a short stint in juvie

Now, he's in Big(ger) Boy prison

186 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:51:36pm

re: #178 sattv4u2

he dismisses it as a prank

No, he calls it both a crime and a prank. Which is, I think, a fairly accurate assessment in the case of the younger participants.

He has not said they should not be punished. He said that long jail terms were not appropriate. Since you don't think they are either, what exactly is the issue?

187 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:52:08pm

re: #166 SanFranciscoZionist

Also true. We're really just starting to generate the law that will go along with new technologies.

We'll never in that race. The technology will always outpace the law, given the need to write said laws (for complex topics this is a lengthy process) and then pass them through the legislature.

188 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:52:14pm

re: #186 SanFranciscoZionist

No, he calls it both a crime and a prank. Which is, I think, a fairly accurate assessment in the case of the younger participants.

He has not said they should not be punished. He said that long jail terms were not appropriate. Since you don't think they are either, what exactly is the issue?

No He ONLY did that when pushed

189 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:52:35pm

re: #184 marjoriemoon

Punishment is for the victim, not the perpetrator because if it was up to the perpetrator, he wouldn't have to pay anything.

How does the victim gain?

Before you start cutting down the U.S. justice system, I would also remind you that we take great care not to do cruel and unusual punishment.

I know. That was actually part of my point; the life of criminals is often so crappy that putting them in prison really doesn't change much for them. They live their life surrounded by criminals and violence. Prison, out of prison, pretty much the same.

190 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:52:43pm

re: #169 allegro

A direct threat of violence is indeed harmful. A threat to security - if this was such a threat - of a major financial institution may be harmful - or perhaps it can be revealing a security lapse that can be improved. I am simply asking what ACTUAL damages were done, if any. No one seems to know.

This was a direct threat to security of financial institutions.
Actual damages will be in addition to the threat.

As for actual damages done - I have no clue, and honestly, we may never know, the banks, etc., may not want to reveal much.

191 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:52:50pm

Dinner Bell

192 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:53:17pm

re: #185 sattv4u2

Sad
he ran the entire gamut from probation, to community service, to house arrest, to a short stint in juvie

Now, he's in Big(ger) Boy prison

Many of the daughter's kids are on their way there. One of her maddening hobbies is to talk her students out of copping to adult charges--the kids who make it to adult court have a chance of getting processed in and out much faster.

193 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:55:27pm

re: #185 sattv4u2

Sad
he ran the entire gamut from probation, to community service, to house arrest, to a short stint in juvie

Now, he's in Big(ger) Boy prison

Some kids, despite all efforts, won't take the warnings and help. In those cases, you have to drop the hammer on them. But the hammer should never be a first resort unless you're dealing with a sociopath. Those you hammer as soon as possible, since they'll never really clean up their acts.

194 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:55:35pm

Heh.
Looking back through the thread:

I see Satt in a discussion with WUB.
Satt gets sarcastic, which is, well, how he is.
WUB stirs the pot, gets Satt riled up, cackles and leaves.
Which is something I see often enough from WUB.
Now WUB is gone and folks are pissed with Satt.

I'm not getting it.

195 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:56:49pm

re: #194 reine.de.tout

I don't think WUB stirred the pot. He's being perfectly honest about what he feels.

How do you see him 'stirring the pot'?

196 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 3:57:08pm

re: #188 sattv4u2

No He ONLY did that when pushed

That's not what I see. RWC says "This is a crime, not a prank." I believe he uses the word first.

WUB responds, "This is a crime and a prank."

I think you're reading a dismissal of the crime into what, to my eye, is more a concern that we don't go overboard punishing underage kids.

197 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:00:02pm

re: #194 reine.de.tout

Heh.
Looking back through the thread:

I see Satt in a discussion with WUB.
Satt gets sarcastic, which is, well, how he is.
WUB stirs the pot, gets Satt riled up, cackles and leaves.
Which is something I see often enough from WUB.
Now WUB is gone and folks are pissed with Satt.

I'm not getting it.

I'm not pissed with Satt. I'm confused at how indignant people are with WUB for saying that an underage person simply participating in something like this attack on BofA doesn't warrant an extended jail term, especially since no one appears to disagree on that point.

198 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:00:24pm

I'm takin' a nap.

199 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:00:54pm
I just wish people were as fired up to prosecute the bankers who developed financial instruments that really did blow up the world economy.

re: #170 Obdicut

Did you miss this?

Youtube Video
re: #170 Obdicut
200 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:01:14pm

re: #183 Decatur Deb

It stinks that prison is the only available answer to a very old question. (About half the kids in my elementary school were there at the convenience of the Juvenile Court.)

I think WUB's point is that there's a huge disconnect in lumping children who abuse their internet privileges with children who commit violent crimes like rape and attempted murder. That putting the former in with the latter is counterproductive in that it's likely to teach them a whole new skill set.

The common denominator might be frontal lobe disinhibition, but society should still be able to discern the disparity in actual harm.

201 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:01:44pm

re: #199 Rightwingconspirator

Darn blew the format.
Crashing Wall Street

Youtube Video
202 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:02:23pm

BBL

203 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:02:31pm

re: #194 reine.de.tout

Heh.
Looking back through the thread:

I see Satt in a discussion with WUB.
Satt gets sarcastic, which is, well, how he is.
WUB stirs the pot, gets Satt riled up, cackles and leaves.
Which is something I see often enough from WUB.
Now WUB is gone and folks are pissed with Satt.

I'm not getting it.

Satt came at me first, I simply got frustrated and left.

I would have rather the conversation stayed mostly sane and didn't go into straw man horseshit territory, bit it did! And easy obvious strawman crap insults my intelligence, so I left. Wasn't because I wanted to troll, or rile the dude up, or be Ken kesey merry prankster har har it was because the argument became fruitless, because it's not worth my time, it became frustrating, and and I got work going on.

Unlike a lot of folks here, I work from home full time, often working in between individual posts because it's easier on my hands to take breaks from the tablet. If you want to know my motivations for being part of or not part of a conversation, you can ask me! No need to speculate ;-)

204 lostlakehiker  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:05:15pm

re: #165 Obdicut

I'm asking you what the virtue of that punishment is. So far, you haven't answered that question.

I feel that criminals should be dealt with in whatever way makes them least likely to commit crimes in the future. I do not think that punishment is in any way the best method of doing that. In addition, the day-to-day life of many criminals in the outside world is pretty fucking bad; punishing people who live in such a violent world is difficult to do without being inhumane.

Again: We incarcerate a larger percentage of our citizens than any other nation on earth ever has. One of the reasons for this is that punishment as deterrence simply doesn't work. I would much rather we explored options that do work, then punish for the sake of punishing.

I completely understand the human desire for vengeance. I don't think that we all have this desire means that it is a good to act on it.

(Quote within quote, from the post to which O's post is a response:

If you can get a kid before they're 18, maybe 21, there may be some hope for rehabilitation, but after that you're pretty much cooked. Your personality is what it is and it won't change much.

end quote within quote)

This is not true.

It's not universally true, but there is a measure of truth in it.

As to the main topic:

The prospect of punishment does deter. If not for the possibility of being punished, possibly with years in jail, or with heavy fines, more people would cheat on their taxes. Eventually, almost everyone would cheat once it became clear that there were no real consequences.

Minor, but difficult to escape, punishments for such minor crimes as turnstile jumping have been the centerpiece of NYC's game plan to turn around crime stats. And it worked.

Human nature is not all sweetness and light. Getting caught, and shamed or punished in some more serious manner, tends to straighten many a person out. Chuck Colson, for instance. Probably Michael Vick; we'll see.

What's more, prison as punishment serves several purposes. The imprisoned offender is not only impressed with the reality that the crime has consequences, he's incapacitated to some extent. While in prison, he cannot do much of anything to the civilian populace at large. While in prison, he cannot serve as a bad example to impressionable youth. And finally, while in prison, he serves as an object lesson and a warning to others.

In some European nations, many laws have become essentially dead letters. Theodore Dalrymple's essays describe the low grade chaos that becomes the background to daily life; the later novels of Dick Francis corroborate the diagnosis.

In other nations, such as China, low rates of imprisonment reflect high rates of punishment per offense, and consequent deterrence. This is not to say that China's system is ideal; their system doesn't worry enough about the possibility that an innocent person may be convicted, for example. Nor does it fret in the least about the possibility that the criminal justice system will be employed for purely political ends. This is accepted.

Still, to really make your case you'd need to show not just that the U.S. has high rates of incarceration, but that it has a high ratio of man-years of incarceration per offense. I'd guess it doesn't.

205 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:05:58pm

I'm just curious under what circumstances the etiquette of this place allows me to get annoyed and leave, I wasn't aware I had to clear it with corporate or suzie at the front desk or whatever

later!

206 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:06:11pm

re: #189 Obdicut

How does the victim gain?

I know. That was actually part of my point; the life of criminals is often so crappy that putting them in prison really doesn't change much for them. They live their life surrounded by criminals and violence. Prison, out of prison, pretty much the same.

The victim gains nothing other than knowing justice is served.

In China, when you steal, they cut off your hand. That's revenge. Here in the U.S., they put you prison. That's justice. Both are debts paid by the criminal, except that justice is based on a moral and ethical code.

I don't care if a criminals life is crappy. It should be crappy. A person who has made an immoral or unethical decision that effects my life should be made to pay for it. And with my above example, this country (and other more democratic countries) think a lot more about the life of the criminal than other countries.

207 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:07:18pm

re: #200 goddamnedfrank

I think WUB's point is that there's a huge disconnect in lumping children who abuse their internet privileges with children who commit violent crimes like rape and attempted murder. That putting the former in with the latter is counterproductive in that it's likely to teach them a whole new skill set.

The common denominator might be frontal lobe disinhibition, but society should still be able to discern the disparity in actual harm.

I'm not looking for Devil's Island, but enough of the perps, underage or not, need to be an object lesson. A DDOS attack on the wrong system can do a great deal of harm. Realistically, no 14 yr old white kid is going to do time over this, but some parental units are going to be coming up with fines and lawyers' fees.

208 allegro  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:09:11pm

re: #207 Decatur Deb

I'm not looking for Devil's Island, but enough of the perps, underage or not, need to be an object lesson. A DDOS attack on the wrong system can do a great deal of harm. Realistically, no 14 yr old white kid is going to do time over this, but some parental units are going to be coming up with fines and lawyers' fees.

Now this seems very reasonable.

209 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:10:39pm

re: #200 goddamnedfrank

IMO-I did not see it like that. I read his point as diminishing what these people did via the old "it's just the internet" and that they are minors. I disagree. If I misread, WUB can fix that easy.

We have a jail system in place for non violent young offenders. Too many are equating jail for minors as supermax. That's a strawman too.
And as to "it's just the internet", well the net is just another place to choose to behave or not. Obey the law or not. So that strikes me as wrong too. Now WUB and I disagree from time to time. This is just another instance.

210 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:17:57pm

re: #209 Rightwingconspirator

IMO-I did not see it like that. I read his point as diminishing what these people did via the old "it's just the internet" and that they are minors. I disagree. If I misread, WUB can fix that easy.

We have a jail system in place for non violent young offenders. Too many are equating jail for minors as supermax. That's a strawman too.
And as to "it's just the internet", well the net is just another place to choose to behave or not. Obey the law or not. So that strikes me as wrong too. Now WUB and I disagree from time to time. This is just another instance.

We're really talking apples and oranges here to a great extent. First, minor versus adult crimes. Secondly murder versus a DDOS attack.

There is no doubt in my mind that whomever did this, whatever age or economic background, they should be punished. As to what or how, I don't know. I also wager when they get ahold of the minions, they'll come clean right quick as to how they did it and who told them to do it which I'm assuming is happening as we speak.

211 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:19:14pm

re: #170 Obdicut

I just wish people were as fired up to prosecute the bankers who developed financial instruments that really did blow up the world economy.

FUCKING EXACTLY.

Good evening LGF

212 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:19:58pm

re: #210 marjoriemoon

Agreed. And that is why I referred to a judge for sentencing, and precedent (my links above) for appropriate perspective.

213 Usually refered to as anyways  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:21:33pm

OT: This can't be good.

'Don't date Arabs' letter sparks Israeli controversy


A letter published by a group of rabbis in Israel has sparked calls for their dismissal.

The letter, signed by the wives and daughters of prominent rabbis, instructs Jewish women not to date or even work with Arab men.

Human rights groups and more liberal rabbis say the letter whips up hatred and are calling for those behind it to be sacked.

The letter was published in some of Israel's mainstream papers and is signed by the wives and daughters of 27 of Israel's most senior and prominent rabbis, among them Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, who is the spiritual leader of the ultra orthodox Shas party - a key partner in Israel's coalition government.

It urges Jewish women not to date or even work with non-Jews - read Arabs - or even serve alongside them in the Israeli Army.

214 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:22:11pm

re: #211 Stanley Sea

Well we do. Or did. News comes and goes, and the outrage with it.
About 8,580,000 results (0.20 seconds)

[Link: www.google.com...]
Search term-popular anger at wall street and banks

215 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:23:38pm

re: #214 Rightwingconspirator

Well we do. Or did. News comes and goes, and the outrage with it.
About 8,580,000 results (0.20 seconds)

[Link: www.google.com...]
Search term-popular anger at wall street and banks

Where's the charges?
Where's the trials?

216 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:24:16pm

re: #215 Varek Raith

Where's the charges?
Where's the trials?

Profit over justice.

217 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:24:20pm

re: #213 ozbloke

OT: This can't be good.

'Don't date Arabs' letter sparks Israeli controversy

A letter published by a group of rabbis in Israel has sparked calls for their dismissal.

The letter, signed by the wives and daughters of prominent rabbis, instructs Jewish women not to date or even work with Arab men.

Human rights groups and more liberal rabbis say the letter whips up hatred and are calling for those behind it to be sacked.

The letter was published in some of Israel's mainstream papers and is signed by the wives and daughters of 27 of Israel's most senior and prominent rabbis, among them Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, who is the spiritual leader of the ultra orthodox Shas party - a key partner in Israel's coalition government.

It urges Jewish women not to date or even work with non-Jews - read Arabs - or even serve alongside them in the Israeli Army.

Would have sorta wrecked our office in Herzlyia--we were half Israeli and half US. (Or isn't that what they really meant.)

218 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:25:42pm

re: #215 Varek Raith

Obdicut said "people" so I went and found exactly what was asked about. Easily. The reason there are not more charges was lax laws. Like the uptick rule went away.

219 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:28:01pm

re: #197 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm not pissed with Satt. I'm confused at how indignant people are with WUB for saying that an underage person simply participating in something like this attack on BofA doesn't warrant an extended jail term, especially since no one appears to disagree on that point.

re: #203 WindUpBird

Satt came at me first, I simply got frustrated and left.

I would have rather the conversation stayed mostly sane and didn't go into straw man horseshit territory, bit it did! And easy obvious strawman crap insults my intelligence, so I left. Wasn't because I wanted to troll, or rile the dude up, or be Ken kesey merry prankster har har it was because the argument became fruitless, because it's not worth my time, it became frustrating, and and I got work going on.

Unlike a lot of folks here, I work from home full time, often working in between individual posts because it's easier on my hands to take breaks from the tablet. If you want to know my motivations for being part of or not part of a conversation, you can ask me! No need to speculate ;-)

All I'm saying:
All too often for my particular taste, folks are just talking past each other, seems to me trying to one-up each other with the sarcasm and snark.

And yeah there are a few who are masters at it. Satt & WUB being two of 'em.

I like 'em both. And I wish they'd both just slow down a bit and 'splain more to begin with, rather than doing the one-up thing.

Just my .02

220 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:28:18pm

re: #217 Decatur Deb

Pimf.
> Herzliya.

221 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:29:49pm

re: #16 WindUpBird

well, the ones rooting for OMG PRISON for them

I'm one of those bleeding hearts who doens't think kids should go to prison ;-)

Take away the parents' Internet access and fine their asses off.

What, you think the little darlings and those responsible for them should get off scott free?

222 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:29:55pm

re: #216 Stanley Sea
re: #170 Obdicut

Again I say comparing totally different crimes and circumstances for sentencing is false logic. Apples are not oranges.

223 Usually refered to as anyways  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:30:11pm

re: #217 Decatur Deb

Would have sorta wrecked our office in Herzlyia--we were half Israeli and half US. (Or isn't that what they really meant.)

I won't try to guess what was meant, but there is this:

Rabbi Levi Chazen represents the organisation which drafted the letter - Lahava - which works to prevent Jewish assimilation.

"Throughout the ages the Jewish people always kept the fine line of marrying amongst themselves and not intermarrying amongst other peoples, otherwise we wouldn't be here today," he said.

"And so it's very unfortunate that we do come back to the land of Israel after 2,000 years of exile and we find ourselves with a problem of assimilation with Jewish women and Arab men."

[...]
But a survey published on the same day suggests Israelis are evenly divided - 44 per cent of Israeli Jews it says supported the rabbis' calls while 48 per cent were opposed.

I would like to find that survey.

224 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:32:29pm

re: re: #172 WindUpBird

Yeha, but that takes understanding. This whole thread is all so "god damn kids! Grandpa smash!" i can't even believe it

I'd like to stay but it's just UGH, I can't

Now that just insults many of us trying to make cogent points. Ageism? That's not cool at all.

225 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:34:09pm

re: #223 ozbloke

I won't try to guess what was meant, but there is this:

Rabbi Levi Chazen represents the organisation which drafted the letter - Lahava - which works to prevent Jewish assimilation.

"Throughout the ages the Jewish people always kept the fine line of marrying amongst themselves and not intermarrying amongst other peoples, otherwise we wouldn't be here today," he said.

"And so it's very unfortunate that we do come back to the land of Israel after 2,000 years of exile and we find ourselves with a problem of assimilation with Jewish women and Arab men."

[...]
But a survey published on the same day suggests Israelis are evenly divided - 44 per cent of Israeli Jews it says supported the rabbis' calls while 48 per cent were opposed.

I would like to find that survey.

It might be conflated with this one, on rentals, treated in an earlier letter.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

226 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:34:14pm

re: #224 Rightwingconspirator

Now that just insults many of us trying to make cogent points. Ageism? That's not cool at all.

I'm out for a smoke.
Peace all.

227 researchok  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:35:26pm

re: #217 Decatur Deb

Would have sorta wrecked our office in Herzlyia--we were half Israeli and half US. (Or isn't that what they really meant.)

I find it interesting that the prohibition of Arab women marrying Jewish men (enforced with the penalty of death) is of no concern.

I wonder why that is.

228 Alexzander  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:36:03pm

re: #222 Rightwingconspirator

re: #170 Obdicut

Again I say comparing totally different crimes and circumstances for sentencing is false logic. Apples are not oranges.

I think you need to make the case that the two scenarios are in no way alike (obviously they are not identical.) However, how about this:

In each case, you have a entity representing many individuals damaging a financial institution. I one case, a couple of banks had their websites taken offline for 30 odd minutes. In another case, you had the systemic establishment of dangerous banking practices that resulted in tens of thousands of more homeless Americans. On top of that, the same entities then wielded their power over the government to have those same suckers/people pay for the debts left by the banks mismanagement. These cases seem comparable in the sense that one crime seems to be worse by several degrees, yet the call out for prosecution seems to be inverted.

229 researchok  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:36:48pm

re: #225 Decatur Deb

It might be conflated with this one, on rentals, treated in an earlier letter.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

That ruling has been roundly condemned by religious authorities.

In fact, I suggest that will be rescinded in one way or another.

230 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:36:50pm

re: #46 WindUpBird

sorry, i don't believe screwing with a botnet warrants ruining a kid's life

How about they pay for all the damage they did out of their allowance or their job at Mickey D?

231 researchok  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:38:00pm

re: #230 Alouette

How about they pay for all the damage they did out of their allowance or their job at Mickey D?

Unlikely mommy or daddy will go for that!
/

232 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:38:13pm

re: #229 researchok

That ruling has been roundly condemned by religious authorities.

In fact, I suggest that will be rescinded in one way or another.

Jerusalem Post also cited the "rental" poll in its discussion.

233 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:38:49pm

re: #57 WindUpBird

for a 15 year old? or a 25 year old?

And are we talking about a guy who's working in IT, has full knowledge of consequences, rooting computers and doing a lot of damage? or some kid who was told on irc to aim a script at a site?

Lots of questions, you know?

Why do you think drug dealers use 13-year-old kids as mules?

234 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:39:16pm

re: #227 researchok

I find it interesting that the prohibition of Arab women marrying Jewish men (enforced with the penalty of death) is of no concern.

I wonder why that is.

Low expectations. It comes up from time to time.

235 researchok  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:40:01pm

re: #234 Decatur Deb

Low expectations. It comes up from time to time.

So much for 'equal playing fields'.

236 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:42:39pm

re: #204 lostlakehiker

There is in no way a consensus that the crackdown on stuff like turnstile jumping had any effect or was the cause of the drop in crime rates in NYC.

237 Usually refered to as anyways  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:43:22pm

re: #225 Decatur Deb

It might be conflated with this one, on rentals, treated in an earlier letter.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Yes, I believe you are correct.
Also, it seems the story I posted is referencing this:
Barak: Anti-Arab letters by rabbis and rabbis’ wives leading Israel into dark place

efense Minister Ehud Barak warned on Wednesday that anti-Arab letters signed by rabbis and wives' of rabbis would lead to a wave of racism that would threaten to "take over" Israeli society.

Barak expressed his concern in a statement, released shortly after a letter urging Jewish women not to date non-Jewish men was published by a group of rabbis' wives and just weeks after a rabbis' letter was published urging Jews not to sell or rent properties to non-Jews.

238 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:43:51pm

re: #69 WindUpBird

it is a crime AND a prank.

Vandalism is a crime. Also often a prank! Blocking doors closed, moving cars around. Crimes! Also pranks.

Walking into a bank wearing a mask and passing the teller a humorous little note in a paper bag! [G1v3 m3 a11 ur m0n3y 0r 1'll sh00t u!] Also that gun I said was in my pocket wasn't really loaded.

A prank! Just a bunch of lulz!1!

Where's your sense of humor?
//

239 laZardo  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:44:22pm

SO I HEARD THE PARTYVAN JUST ROLLED IN.

O:

/also good morning

240 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:44:48pm

re: #237 ozbloke

Yes, I believe you are correct.
Also, it seems the story I posted is referencing this:
Barak: Anti-Arab letters by rabbis and rabbis’ wives leading Israel into dark place

efense Minister Ehud Barak warned on Wednesday that anti-Arab letters signed by rabbis and wives' of rabbis would lead to a wave of racism that would threaten to "take over" Israeli society.

Barak expressed his concern in a statement, released shortly after a letter urging Jewish women not to date non-Jewish men was published by a group of rabbis' wives and just weeks after a rabbis' letter was published urging Jews not to sell or rent properties to non-Jews.

Yeah. That article discusses both letters as a syndrome.

241 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:44:56pm

re: #238 Alouette

Walking into a bank wearing a mask and passing the teller a humorous little note in a paper bag! [G1v3 m3 a11 ur m0n3y 0r 1'll sh00t u!] Also that gun I said was in my pocket wasn't really loaded.

A prank! Just a bunch of lulz!1!

Where's your sense of humor?
//

Botnets do not equal guns.

242 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:45:22pm
Your comment is awaiting moderation. [My comment follows:]

The commenters at PJM seem to be mostly intolerant assholes. Mr. Navarette does himself no favors by allowing his work to be published here. I hope he’s paid a lot, and spends it on educating folks in places where they still appreciate that sort of thing.

That's at the end of 60 comments by a bunch of assholes, including one who is still registered here. Despite my use of the word "assholes", I think my comment is not hateful enough to make it through moderation.

243 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:45:51pm

re: #203 WindUpBird

Satt came at me first, I simply got frustrated and left.

I would have rather the conversation stayed mostly sane and didn't go into straw man horseshit territory, bit it did! And easy obvious strawman crap insults my intelligence, so I left. Wasn't because I wanted to troll, or rile the dude up, or be Ken kesey merry prankster har har it was because the argument became fruitless, because it's not worth my time, it became frustrating, and and I got work going on.. . .

A person's disagreeing with you does not make a conversation "not sane". Nor is it helpful for you to characterize disagreement as "insulting your intelligence". If we don't agree with you, what, we're all stupid? Unhelpful.

re: #205WindUpBird

I'm just curious under what circumstances the etiquette of this place allows me to get annoyed and leave, I wasn't aware I had to clear it with corporate or suzie at the front desk or whatever

later!

Oh, puh-leeze!
You can get annoyed and leave anytime you want.
But you expect to be immune from people being annoyed with you? What?

244 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:47:44pm

re: #206 marjoriemoon

The victim gains nothing other than knowing justice is served.
.

And that is my point. That's circular logic. Why is it justice? Because it punishes the perpatrator. What good does that do the victim? That justice was served.

If you look at psychological research into the victims of crime, very few of them feel any benefit from the specific punishment of the perpetrator. Almost none felt any difference given different lengths of prison sentences. The most stated desire was to never see the perpetrator ever again and to disallow any contact from the perpetrator, which is something that I think should be automatic, but isn't.


don't care if a criminals life is crappy. It should be crappy. A person who has made an immoral or unethical decision that effects my life should be made to pay for it.

You're not getting it. Their lives outside of prison are crappy. Their lives inside prison are crappy. Most career criminals are pretty unfazed by prison. So prison winds up as punishment only for the unhardened criminal-- but has the effect of making them more likely to commit crimes than if they had been in a rehabilitative program. That is counterproductive.

Which would you rather: that a specific person who committed a crime suffered, or that they were less likely to make an innocent suffer in the future?

245 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:48:21pm

re: #243 reine.de.tout

A person's disagreeing with you does not make a conversation "not sane". Nor is it helpful for you to characterize disagreement as "insulting your intelligence". If we don't agree with you, what, we're all stupid? Unhelpful.

re: #205WindUpBird

Oh, puh-leeze!
You can get annoyed and leave anytime you want.
But you expect to be immune from people being annoyed with you? What?

Actually, a simple "BBL" smooths over the confusion that happens when someone goes silent during a hot exchange.

246 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:48:37pm

re: #243 reine.de.tout


Oh, puh-leeze!
You can get annoyed and leave anytime you want.
But you expect to be immune from people being annoyed with you? What?

How is he saying that, at all?

247 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:50:32pm

re: #236 Obdicut

There is in no way a consensus that the crackdown on stuff like turnstile jumping had any effect or was the cause of the drop in crime rates in NYC.

Obi, are you an anarchist? I'm not saying that from this comment, it just popped in my head. You don't have to answer, of course.

248 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:51:31pm

re: #242 wrenchwench

That's at the end of 60 comments by a bunch of assholes, including one who is still registered here. Despite my use of the word "assholes", I think my comment is not hateful enough to make it through moderation.

Is this Ruben Navarette? I'm curious to what you are referring to? :)

249 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:52:02pm

If Christians Were Treated Like Muslims
by Gary Bauer
12/28/2010

Few Americans would deny that Judeo-Christian beliefs and values informed the Founding of this country and that they continue to shape much of American life today. Nor would many of us deny that Americans who embrace Islamic values are a distinct minority here.

I raise these two facts because of an emerging reality: that, in a variety of contexts, American Muslims are treated better than American Christians. That might seem like a bizarre assertion, so think about it in another way: What if the Christians were treated like Muslims in America, and Muslims like Christians?

If Muslims were treated like Christians in America, Muslims would have to tolerate the defamation of their holiest images in our national museums, acts which would be called "artwork" -- and, if particularly provocative, even given taxpayer-funded grants from the National Endowment for the Arts. They would also have to accept Korans being burned and thrown into toilets, which instead of inciting worldwide outrage and retribution would provoke a collective shrug of the shoulders."

If Christians Were Treated Like Muslims...

...people would accuse the president of being a christian, and he/she would have to deny it as if it was a bad thing

...pam geller and others would be poo-poo-ing the idea that not all christians are terrorists

...right wing commentatoes would be brandishing violent passages from the bible as "proof" that christianity and american society are incompatible

250 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:53:06pm

re: #249 engineer dog

Gary Bauer.
Lol.
Someone has a persecution complex.

251 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:53:13pm

re: #248 Stanley Sea

Is this Ruben Navarette? I'm curious to what you are referring to? :)

Yep, Ruben Navarette. I'm reading the article, but he's a local San Diego (Latino Republican) writer. He and I had the most interesting email conversation about Sonia Sotomayor.

When two sides meet.

252 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:54:29pm

If this was primarily perpetrated by legal minors, I still think they should be punished. Actions have consequences, and the sooner people learn that, the better the decisions they make in their lives will be.

253 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:55:06pm

re: #245 Decatur Deb

Actually, a simple "BBL" smooths over the confusion that happens when someone goes silent during a hot exchange.

Agreed.
But not nearly as much fun as saying something like this:

. . .clear it with corporate or suzie at the front desk or whatever . . .

good grief.

254 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:55:35pm

re: #247 marjoriemoon

Obi, are you an anarchist? I'm not saying that from this comment, it just popped in my head. You don't have to answer, of course.

What the holy fuck?

No, I'm not an anarchist. How on earth do you get this idea?

I don't find that punishment is an aspect of legal justice. To the extent that it might be, I don't think our current prison system functions in any effective way as punishment.

Now, why on earth are you asking if I'm an anarchist? Because I emphasize people committing fewer crimes rather than punishing them for the crimes they commit? How does that connect to anarchy?

255 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:57:00pm

re: #254 Obdicut

Am I an anarchist. Jesus. You'd think after we had an actual anarchist around here recently, the distinction between me and an anarchist would be pretty fucking clear.

256 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:57:44pm

Getting hot in here.
BBL.

257 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:58:02pm

re: #254 Obdicut

What the holy fuck?

No, I'm not an anarchist. How on earth do you get this idea?

I don't find that punishment is an aspect of legal justice. To the extent that it might be, I don't think our current prison system functions in any effective way as punishment.

Now, why on earth are you asking if I'm an anarchist? Because I emphasize people committing fewer crimes rather than punishing them for the crimes they commit? How does that connect to anarchy?

Don't listen to him MM. True anarchists never cop to the name.

258 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:58:15pm

re: #246 Obdicut

How is he saying that, at all?

The "clearing it with corporate suzie" comment.
Idiotic.

I think satt and WUB need to both slow down, and stop a bit with the one-upsmanship on the sarcasm. I think the conversation would be much more productive and helpful.

And that makes me a "corporate suzie"?

WUB, in the end, must find a way to insult anyone who isn't swayed at the moment by his irresistable charm.

BBL.

259 jaunte  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:59:23pm

re: #256 Floral Giraffe

I asked Suzie at the front desk to open a window, but she just showed me a finger.

260 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 4:59:59pm

Sargent Hartman goes full metal wingnut....
GEICO's R. Lee Ermey, appearing on behalf of Toys 4 Tots & USO unloads on President Obama

Youtube Video

Skip the musical intro. Praising Glenn Beck and claiming Obama is intentionally destroying the country to install socialism.
I really hope that isn't a military audience and it's disgraceful to see uniformed soldiers on stage for that speech. Very embarrassing.

261 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:00:01pm

oh come on.

remember that chick Mandy? And how everyone put up with her shit? This is minuscule compared.

262 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:00:44pm

re: #260 Killgore Trout

Aren't there rules around being in uniform during political stuff?

263 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:01:03pm

re: #228 Alexzander
Many of the egregious policies were within the law, arguably. So we have the call to re regulate. Which happened. Not strongly enough at all, so we should not ignore the power of the campaign donations. Still too distant a comparison for sentencing. The parallels are fine for broad societal comparison, but have no bearing in a trial.

264 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:01:32pm

re: #261 Stanley Sea

oh come on.

remember that chick Mandy? And how everyone put up with her shit? This is minuscule compared.

Magical Balance Fairy!

265 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:01:42pm

re: #233 Alouette

Why do you think drug dealers use 13-year-old kids as mules?

"duuude, no way i'm stickin' that IP packet up my butt!!!"

266 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:01:55pm

re: #259 jaunte

I asked Suzie at the front desk to open a window, but she just showed me a finger.

watchit, buster.

267 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:02:04pm

re: #241 Varek Raith

Botnets do not equal guns.

Well no, but you know, you don't get to hack into banks or fortune 500 corporations and get away with it. I'm just kinda blown away by how many folks here don't seem to think it's all that big a deal. I think it's a huge freakin deal.

I said this once before but the whole thing reminds me of Watergate, in the sense of whistleblowing, real journalists, who specifically targeted corruption in our government. Not some lazy, self-serving, video gaming gurus.

What was the purpose of what they did? Did they take info? No. Did they compromise information? No. They did it to tell you WE CAN and WE WILL torment you for no reason whatsoever, for what? Because I have a bank account? Because I'm trying to live a decent life for me and my family and have a happy home?

I have a BoA account. They can go fuck themselves. I really don't give a crap what happens to them.

268 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:02:19pm

re: #251 Stanley Sea

Yep, Ruben Navarette. I'm reading the article, but he's a local San Diego (Latino Republican) writer. He and I had the most interesting email conversation about Sonia Sotomayor.

When two sides meet.

What did he say about Sonia? Does he like her at all?

269 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:02:28pm

re: #264 wrenchwench

Magical Balance Fairy!

oops. It's just what came to mind!

270 laZardo  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:02:58pm

re: #256 Floral Giraffe

Getting hot in here.
BBL.

Don't forget to...

271 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:03:00pm

If Obdicut is an anarchist, then I'm the Dalai Lama.

272 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:03:28pm

re: #267 marjoriemoon

Nobody hacked into a bank during this.

273 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:03:45pm

re: #262 Obdicut

Aren't there rules around being in uniform during political stuff?

There are but the guys in uniform are there for a USO-Toys for tots benefit. I'm not sure they'd know what he was going to say.

274 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:04:30pm

re: #268 wrenchwench

What did he say about Sonia? Does he like her at all?

He loved her, and had to fight back against the bullshit. As a Republican. It was an amazing conver. I just emailed him @ the paper & we talked about it for awhile.

275 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:04:30pm

re: #273 Killgore Trout

Such an abuse of the moment. I used to really like that guy. Mail Call was pretty awesome, even if he never met an overpriced technology he didn't love.

276 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:07:05pm

re: #275 Obdicut

Such an abuse of the moment. I used to really like that guy. Mail Call was pretty awesome, even if he never met an overpriced technology he didn't love.

Agreed, I suppose he;s free to speak his mind but that was not a wise choice of venue. It's going to create problems for the USO/toys for tots and even his sponsorship with geico will probably be canceled.

277 jaunte  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:07:24pm

re: #273 Killgore Trout

Not a great moment for him. "Let's rise up and stop them" isn't something you should be saying about the legally elected administration to a group of military people.

278 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:08:14pm

re: #277 jaunte

Not a great moment for him. "Let's rise up and stop them" isn't something you should be saying about the legally elected administration to a group of military people.

Should have saved it for an Oathkeepers rally.

279 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:08:49pm

re: #268 wrenchwench

What did he say about Sonia? Does he like her at all?

LOL, I just left a comment, and noticed at the moment I hit send that I unfortunately subscribed to their daily notices. PJM. What the hell.

280 jaunte  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:09:25pm

Time for a rain-soaked commute.

281 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:10:47pm

re: #254 Obdicut

What the holy fuck?

No, I'm not an anarchist. How on earth do you get this idea?

I don't find that punishment is an aspect of legal justice. To the extent that it might be, I don't think our current prison system functions in any effective way as punishment.

Now, why on earth are you asking if I'm an anarchist? Because I emphasize people committing fewer crimes rather than punishing them for the crimes they commit? How does that connect to anarchy?

Not having a justice system which punishes violent criminals (you didn't really make any kind of distinction so I'm assuming you're including violent criminals) would result in anarchy, because eventually the ones you have "rehabilitated" would be set free and they would continue to commit heinous crimes. You'd have a lot of dangerous people running around. I'm sorry if you don't believe that, but some people are sick, truly sick and cannot be made unsick.

Now, I'm done Obi. We're not going to agree so I'd rather drop it.

282 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:10:57pm

re: #279 Stanley Sea

LOL, I just left a comment, and noticed at the moment I hit send that I unfortunately subscribed to their daily notices. PJM. What the hell.

Oh, good, then you can tell me whether mine makes it through. I carefully unchecked that box.

283 CuriousLurker  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:14:26pm

re: #227 researchok

I find it interesting that the prohibition of Arab women marrying Jewish men (enforced with the penalty of death) is of no concern.

I wonder why that is.

In the comments on Alouette's page you said you "want to know why there is no outrage over the Muslim prohibition of women marrying Jewish men," and now you're saying it's Arab women and there's a penalty of death.

Which one is it, and where did you get this info? Where does this rule/law originate?

284 CapeCoddah  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:15:17pm

re: #281 marjoriemoon

Not having a justice system which punishes violent criminals (you didn't really make any kind of distinction so I'm assuming you're including violent criminals) would result in anarchy, because eventually the ones you have "rehabilitated" would be set free and they would continue to commit heinous crimes. You'd have a lot of dangerous people running around. I'm sorry if you don't believe that, but some people are sick, truly sick and cannot be made unsick.

Now, I'm done Obi. We're not going to agree so I'd rather drop it.

Good evening everyone...
If I may offer an example of what Marjoriemoon is talking about..

285 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:15:45pm

re: #281 marjoriemoon

Not having a justice system which punishes violent criminals (you didn't really make any kind of distinction so I'm assuming you're including violent criminals) would result in anarchy, because eventually the ones you have "rehabilitated" would be set free and they would continue to commit heinous crimes.

Why the hell do you believe this? If you imprison someone for five years and spend that time rehabilitating them, why does that make them more likely, in your mind, to make them commit crimes than imprisoning them for five years and just making it suck? Why?

you'd have a lot of dangerous people running around. I'm sorry if you don't believe that, but some people are sick, truly sick and cannot be made unsick.

I completely believe that many people can't be rehabilitated. But most can.

Now, I'm done Obi. We're not going to agree so I'd rather drop it.

Asking if I'm an anarchist was one of the weirdest things that's ever happened to me.

286 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:15:46pm

re: #282 wrenchwench

Oh, good, then you can tell me whether mine makes it through. I carefully unchecked that box.

You are smarrrt

287 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:17:00pm

re: #286 Stanley Sea

Wait for the first mail, then unsubscribe!

288 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:17:57pm

re: #287 Floral Giraffe

Wait for the first mail, then unsubscribe!

Seriously. They've already sold my email to other right wing deals.

289 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:18:16pm

re: #272 Obdicut

Nobody hacked into a bank during this.

What the hell did I do to them they should take down BoA for 30 minutes. And they thought it would garner my support? Right. Sniveling little brats, I don't care what age. They have no cause, so they make a cause. They won't volunteer at a soup kitchen, or help the elderly or do something worthwhile with their time because that's all "the government" and "society" anyway and they're not about that. No. They have a better way, free of society! Free of government intervention. Make a statement that means nothing to no one except them.

They have a lot of growing up to do and someone should see to it that it starts quickly.

290 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:18:34pm

re: #284 CapeCoddah

Good evening everyone...
If I may offer an example of what Marjoriemoon is talking about..

Ugh. i can't even read it, it makes me so upset.

291 CapeCoddah  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:19:29pm

re: #290 marjoriemoon

And that article did not mention that the killer was the son of a Boston police officer, or that his brother had gunned down another officer years ago.

292 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:19:50pm

re: #289 marjoriemoon

Still, nobody hacked into a bank. That would be entirely different. DDOS attacks are nasty, shitty, stupid behavior, but they're far, far different from actually compromising the security of a financial institution.


They have a lot of growing up to do and someone should see to it that it starts quickly.

Sure. The question is how to achieve this in the way that actually gets the best results.

293 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:19:56pm

re: #285 Obdicut

Why the hell do you believe this? If you imprison someone for five years and spend that time rehabilitating them, why does that make them more likely, in your mind, to make them commit crimes than imprisoning them for five years and just making it suck? Why?

I completely believe that many people can't be rehabilitated. But most can.

Asking if I'm an anarchist was one of the weirdest things that's ever happened to me.

Why? Because I've worked in law for 30 years. Because lots of my friends are lawyers, judges and cops.

294 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:20:13pm

re: #288 Stanley Sea

Flag them all as spam!

295 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:21:09pm

re: #289 marjoriemoon

What the hell did I do to them they should take down BoA for 30 minutes. And they thought it would garner my support? Right. Sniveling little brats, I don't care what age. They have no cause, so they make a cause. They won't volunteer at a soup kitchen, or help the elderly or do something worthwhile with their time because that's all "the government" and "society" anyway and they're not about that. No. They have a better way, free of society! Free of government intervention. Make a statement that means nothing to no one except them.

They have a lot of growing up to do and someone should see to it that it starts quickly.

I wonder how many of them could live for five minutes without society? I wonder how many of them could even make a loaf of bread, sew a piece of clothing, start a fire, or raise an animal to eat.

You're dependent on society. Show some respect.

296 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:22:02pm

re: #293 marjoriemoon

Why? Because I've worked in law for 30 years. Because lots of my friends are lawyers, judges and cops.

I'm sorry, but appeals to personal authority are extremely weak. What you just gave isn't actually an argument. It's simply 'because I say so'.

Other people who have also worked in the law for an equal amount of time disagree with you. That's why appeals to personal authority have very little to recommend them.

297 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:22:42pm

A DoS and DDoS attack works by spamming the target site with requests to things that don't exist. This overloads the server and it goes down or slows to a crawl. They aren't breaking into the site.

298 CapeCoddah  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:23:30pm

re: #296 Obdicut

I'm sorry, but appeals to personal authority are extremely weak. What you just gave isn't actually an argument. It's simply 'because I say so'.

Other people who have also worked in the law for an equal amount of time disagree with you. That's why appeals to personal authority have very little to recommend them.

Obdi, it is front line experience. It certainly does count.

299 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:23:32pm

re: #297 Varek Raith

Though it should be noted that DDOS attacks can be used to compromise security, but only with really shittily set-up systems.

300 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:23:54pm

re: #298 CapeCoddah

Obdi, it is front line experience. It certainly does count.

Sure. And I know people with equal experience who disagree. So where does that leave us?

301 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:24:59pm

re: #299 Obdicut

Though it should be noted that DDOS attacks can be used to compromise security, but only with really shittily set-up systems.

Right.
The LOIC anon uses is primarily used to test a site or server's load capacity.

302 CapeCoddah  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:27:28pm

re: #300 Obdicut

Sure. And I know people with equal experience who disagree. So where does that leave us?

If you read the link I posted, the people who disagree usually end up with blood on their hands and a free pass.
These people commit heinous crimes. Why do you want to take that chance? What innocent average Joe going out for milk do you want to look in the eye and sentence to death, to give one of these animals a second chance? Have you actulaay seen the recidivism numbers? They are staggering.

303 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:29:37pm

re: #302 CapeCoddah

If you read the link I posted, the people who disagree usually end up with blood on their hands and a free pass.

No, one anecdote does not prove anything.

These people commit heinous crimes. Why do you want to take that chance?

I am talking about the vast majority of criminals, who do not commit 'heinous' crimes. And since I am not talking about shorter prison times, I have no idea what 'chance' I would be taking.

Have you actulaay seen the recidivism numbers? They are staggering.

Yes, I have. That's why I'd like to see them lower.

Apparently, this makes me an anarchist.

So fucking weird.

304 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:30:06pm

re: #297 Varek Raith

A hack to steal say secret policy meeting minutes hurts the bank only. The DDOS attacks hurt the customers as well as the bank. In a way that's worse. Of course if the goal is disruption the kind of attack is merely a tactical issue.

305 CapeCoddah  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:30:40pm

re: #300 Obdicut

Sure. And I know people with equal experience who disagree. So where does that leave us?

Also, the two sides usually consist of the cops, lawyers and judges who put these people away, after they have cleaned up the dead bodies or whatever other chaos they caused, and people who have not. People who are looking at a behavior record in prison. Not dead bodies and the families of those who were devastated.

306 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:31:28pm

re: #305 CapeCoddah

All the dead bodies from the script kiddies, yeah.

What are you talking about?

307 CapeCoddah  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:31:34pm

re: #303 Obdicut

For the record, I do not see you at all as an anarchist.

308 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:31:57pm

re: #303 Obdicut

Heh. You are no anarchist Obdicut. That was wrong. This thread got a bit heated is all.

309 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:32:26pm

re: #302 CapeCoddah

If you read the link I posted, the people who disagree usually end up with blood on their hands and a free pass.
These people commit heinous crimes. Why do you want to take that chance? What innocent average Joe going out for milk do you want to look in the eye and sentence to death, to give one of these animals a second chance? Have you actulaay seen the recidivism numbers? They are staggering.

This is being equated with attacks on websites?

holy shit

310 allegro  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:32:28pm

re: #302 CapeCoddah

The recidivism rate is always going to be enormous under the current circumstances where rehabilitation efforts are essentially non-existent. In fact, the current penal/social system is ultimately designed to create more violent criminals.

311 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:33:11pm

re: #285 Obdicut

Why the hell do you believe this? If you imprison someone for five years and spend that time rehabilitating them, why does that make them more likely, in your mind, to make them commit crimes than imprisoning them for five years and just making it suck? Why?

My Grandpa and Uncle both worked in corrections, grandpa taught the cons job skills running the prison upholstery program, uncle was a guard. Eventually my uncle got fired, suspicions of drug smuggling, then got convicted on armed robbery charges and became an inmate for several years. He came out with HIV/Aids and Hepatitis, now a meth addict whose been on state welfare, social security and medicaid for the last ten years, in and out of trouble.

Obviously rehabilitation isn't the answer and greater punishment turns people into more productive citizens.

312 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:33:22pm

re: #306 Obdicut

Heaven forbid a script disrupts something that does cost lives. It could happen. I think it will and the whole game will change to a far less tolerant model.

313 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:33:39pm

re: #310 allegro

Prison is basically a training ground for criminals at the moment. Weirdly enough, I find this a bad idea.

314 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:33:45pm

re: #310 allegro

The recidivism rate is always going to be enormous under the current circumstances where rehabilitation efforts are essentially non-existent. In fact, the current penal/social system is ultimately designed to create more violent criminals.

Upding for the sentiment, but the system isn't designed at all. It "just grew".

315 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:35:42pm

re: #310 allegro

The recidivism rate is always going to be enormous under the current circumstances where rehabilitation efforts are essentially non-existent. In fact, the current penal/social system is ultimately designed to create more violent criminals.

I've mentioned this before. I read the Rolling Stone interview with Jimmy Carter (sorry folks) where he stated Governors used to brag about their rehabilitation rates, and their low prison populations.

Since incarceration outsourced for profit, that's all out the window. To our fucking shame, and failure, and disgrace.

316 allegro  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:35:42pm

re: #314 Decatur Deb

Upding for the sentiment, but the system isn't designed at all. It "just grew".

Agree with ya there. I just couldn't think of a better word. Although, if I was a conspiracy theorist, I would perhaps wonder about the design aspect now that prisons are for-profit enterprises.

317 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:36:01pm

Obi, if you'll note, I never called you an anarchist. I asked if you were one because your idea is nothing short of crazy to me. I do believe in rehabilitation, but I don't believe it's the first thing that should happen. Punishment is first. You can disagree with me, that's fine, but your idea surprised me because I don't find it reasonable and I find YOU reasonable.

318 researchok  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:36:52pm

re: #283 CuriousLurker

In the comments on Alouette's page you said you "want to know why there is no outrage over the Muslim prohibition of women marrying Jewish men," and now you're saying it's Arab women and there's a penalty of death.

Which one is it, and where did you get this info? Where does this rule/law originate?

Muslim women are precluded from marrying Jewish or Christian men.

There is no prohibition that precludes Muslim men from marrying Jewish or Christian women. That said, they are expected to convert to Islam at some point.

See Jannah here.

Be advised that I find none of these rules offensive.

I do question why only some of these rules raises ire.

319 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:38:18pm

re: #316 allegro

Agree with ya there. I just couldn't think of a better word. Although, if I was a conspiracy theorist, I would perhaps wonder about the design aspect now that prisons are for-profit enterprises.

There's that, and I'll match you with a conspiracy theory that sees it as a dis-enfranchisement machine--Jim Crow 2.0.

320 researchok  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:38:37pm

re: #283 CuriousLurker

In the comments on Alouette's page you said you "want to know why there is no outrage over the Muslim prohibition of women marrying Jewish men," and now you're saying it's Arab women and there's a penalty of death.

Which one is it, and where did you get this info? Where does this rule/law originate?

Yes, I should have been more specific. The rules are religious in origin and not cultural.

321 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:42:39pm

re: #316 allegro

But sentences come from Judges, not the prisons. Three strikes and drug laws account for the big numbers.

322 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:44:54pm

re: #315 Stanley Sea

I've mentioned this before. I read the Rolling Stone interview with Jimmy Carter (sorry folks) where he stated Governors used to brag about their rehabilitation rates, and their low prison populations.

Since incarceration outsourced for profit, that's all out the window. To our fucking shame, and failure, and disgrace.

Prison-for-profit is bad in itself, but the impact of drug incarceration would overwhelm resources anyway. We don't solve this one until we get the populations down to a workable size.

323 CuriousLurker  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:46:52pm

re: #318 researchok

Muslim women are precluded from marrying Jewish or Christian men.

There is no prohibition that precludes Muslim men from marrying Jewish or Christian women. That said, they are expected to convert to Islam at some point.

See Jannah here.

Be advised that I find none of these rules offensive.

I do question why only some of these rules raises ire.

Thanks, but I already know the rules. I just wanted to be clear what you were talking about because the way you said it made it sound as if Muslim women were specifically prohibited form marrying (only) Jewish men, when in fact we are prohibited from marrying any non-Muslim.

Outside of fundie sheikhs, I've never heard or read of such a thing as a death penalty for breaking that rule, (though I don't doubt that it may happen in practice in some cultures).

324 allegro  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:47:56pm

re: #321 Rightwingconspirator

This is true. However, I wasn't referring to sentences but recidivism. We release prisoners whose only skills developed in prison are to do more crimes without any usable, socially acceptable skills to replace them. When they get out of prison. they have an inability to get legal work to support themselves, not only because they lack skills but also because few will hire ex-cons. What the hell do we expect?

325 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:50:13pm

re: #324 allegro

This is true. However, I wasn't referring to sentences but recidivism. We release prisoners whose only skills developed in prison are to do more crimes without any usable, socially acceptable skills to replace them. When they get out of prison. they have an inability to get legal work to support themselves, not only because they lack skills but also because few will hire ex-cons. What the hell do we expect?

And to this, how bout the backlash against the rehabbed Michael Vick? Ha, Tucker Carlson, idiot.

326 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:50:31pm

re: #321 Rightwingconspirator

But sentences come from Judges, not the prisons. Three strikes and drug laws account for the big numbers.

Drug laws, prostitution, gambling, so called "victimless crimes". There has to be some punishment, I suppose, although prostitution and M.J. laws could be handled a hellofa lot better than they are. I'm for legalizing pot. Prostitution, maybe, I don't know.

327 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:52:11pm

re: #323 CuriousLurker

Thanks, but I already know the rules. I just wanted to be clear what you were talking about because the way you said it made it sound as if Muslim women were specifically prohibited form marrying (only) Jewish men, when in fact we are prohibited from marrying any non-Muslim.

Outside of fundie sheikhs, I've never heard or read of such a thing as a death penalty for breaking that rule, (though I don't doubt that it may happen in practice in some cultures).

I haven't followed this thread completely, but the article that started it came out of the M.E. so I would imagine things would be different in the "western" world.

328 allegro  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:52:27pm

re: #325 Stanley Sea

And to this, how bout the backlash against the rehabbed Michael Vick? Ha, Tucker Carlson, idiot.

Michael Vick is a rather unique case, ain't he? Rich, pro football player who tortured and killed dogs. Gets out of prison to return to his rich, pro football life. Whoa, what a combination to attract some serious vehement sentiment.

329 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:53:38pm

re: #237 ozbloke

Yes, I believe you are correct.
Also, it seems the story I posted is referencing this:
Barak: Anti-Arab letters by rabbis and rabbis’ wives leading Israel into dark place

efense Minister Ehud Barak warned on Wednesday that anti-Arab letters signed by rabbis and wives' of rabbis would lead to a wave of racism that would threaten to "take over" Israeli society.

Barak expressed his concern in a statement, released shortly after a letter urging Jewish women not to date non-Jewish men was published by a group of rabbis' wives and just weeks after a rabbis' letter was published urging Jews not to sell or rent properties to non-Jews.

So your grandmother warning you not to date a non-Jew IS JUST LIKE TEH NAZIS!1!1!TY

330 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:54:31pm

re: #241 Varek Raith

Botnets do not equal guns.

What about toy guns? Super soakers?

331 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:55:21pm

re: #328 allegro

Michael Vick is a rather unique case, ain't he? Rich, pro football player who tortured and killed dogs. Gets out of prison to return to his rich, pro football life. Whoa, what a combination to attract some serious vehement sentiment.

Do the crime, serve the time. He did. That's it to me.

332 researchok  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:57:16pm

re: #323 CuriousLurker

Thanks, but I already know the rules. I just wanted to be clear what you were talking about because the way you said it made it sound as if Muslim women were specifically prohibited form marrying (only) Jewish men, when in fact we are prohibited from marrying any non-Muslim.

Outside of fundie sheikhs, I've never heard or read of such a thing as a death penalty for breaking that rule, (though I don't doubt that it may happen in practice in some cultures).

I should have been more specific, as I said.

I suppose I used the Arab/Israeli context because that is how most of the news reports were written- an error on their part.

Also, I really don't have a problem with the restrictions. It is only natural that any group make rules to ensure their longevity and cultural/religious integrity.

In fact, most of religious problems are the result of 'infighting' as opposed to threats from without. Internal divisions are usually far more destructive than threats from the 'outside'. As a rule, external threats tend to bind and bring communities together.

The other 800 lb gorilla in the room is the relationship between Judaism and Islam. Even if you take Israel out of the equation, the relationship is at once love/hate.

A lot of history has been written and rewritten and rewritten again in defining that relationship.

333 allegro  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:58:20pm

re: #331 Stanley Sea

Do the crime, serve the time. He did. That's it to me.

I agree. I also appreciate the time he has spent doing voluntary community service to educate about the evils of dog fighting. His recent statement about how he would like to get a pet dog at some point in the future prompted serious outrage from many. I think the love of a good dog would probably do him a world of good. But then I think that the love of a good dog would do that for about anyone. ;)

334 CuriousLurker  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 5:58:53pm

re: #327 marjoriemoon

I haven't followed this thread completely, but the article that started it came out of the M.E. so I would imagine things would be different in the "western" world.

Yes, I realize that the article was about Israel and I don't doubt that things happen differently amongst Muslims there due to culture, I just wanted to clarify that the prohibition isn't ONLY against marrying Jews and there's nothing "on the books" that I know of—at least not in classical, mainstream Islam—that calls for a woman to be killed if she breaks the rule.

335 compound idaho  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:02:27pm

re: #325 Stanley Sea

And to this, how bout the backlash against the rehabbed Michael Vick? Ha, Tucker Carlson, idiot.

What backlash? Couple of editorials. Thats about it. Nothing serious. The guy tortured and killed dogs. There must be is something wrong with him. I feel bad gutting a fish.

336 Usually refered to as anyways  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:04:44pm

re: #329 Alouette

So your grandmother warning you not to date a non-Jew IS JUST LIKE TEH NAZIS!1!1!TY

Do you think Ehud Barak reads here?

337 researchok  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:06:49pm

re: #334 CuriousLurker

Yes, I realize that the article was about Israel and I don't doubt that things happen differently amongst Muslims there due to culture, I just wanted to clarify that the prohibition isn't ONLY against marrying Jews and there's nothing "on the books" that I know of—at least not in classical, mainstream Islam—that calls for a woman to be killed if she breaks the rule.

How the fatwas are expressed are indeed cultural matters as opposed to religious matters, not unlike 'honor killings' or other punishments meted out by local custom.

That raises a whole other set of issues. How do you change a culture that both encourages and turns a blind eye to those behaviors?

I would hope 'American Islam' would have the opportunity to be an influence there.

338 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:07:40pm

re: #334 CuriousLurker

Yes, I realize that the article was about Israel and I don't doubt that things happen differently amongst Muslims there due to culture, I just wanted to clarify that the prohibition isn't ONLY against marrying Jews and there's nothing "on the books" that I know of—at least not in classical, mainstream Islam—that calls for a woman to be killed if she breaks the rule.

Gotcha. And for the record, we have have the same prohibition about marrying out of the religion to whomever. It's frowned upon.

I was going to say that those rabbis sound like kahanists. That Jews and Arabs should have nothing whatsoever to do with one another, not live together, nothing. Anyway, it's an impossibility. The world is getting smaller, not bigger and we just have to figure out a way to live with each other. I'd rather the focus be on that, but I also understand the fear.

339 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:08:12pm

re: #335 compound idaho

What backlash? Couple of editorials. Thats about it. Nothing serious. The guy tortured and killed dogs. There must be is something wrong with him. I feel bad gutting a fish.

Rehabilitation. Imagine that.

340 tradewind  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:08:18pm

re: #325 Stanley Sea

a) How do you know he's ' rehabbed ', and b) the particularly twisted crime he committed springs from a sociopathic personality disorder that doesn't easily reverse itself through a short incarceration, with 'resume pro ball lifestyle ' as the probation.

341 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:09:19pm

re: #340 tradewind

a) How do you know he's ' rehabbed ', and b) the particularly twisted crime he committed springs from a sociopathic personality disorder that doesn't easily reverse itself through a short incarceration, with 'resume pro ball lifestyle ' as the probation.

OK. never give someone a second chance. nevah.

342 researchok  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:09:36pm

re: #338 marjoriemoon

Gotcha. And for the record, we have have the same prohibition about marrying out of the religion to whomever. It's frowned upon.

I was going to say that those rabbis sound like kahanists. That Jews and Arabs should have nothing whatsoever to do with one another, not live together, nothing. Anyway, it's an impossibility. The world is getting smaller, not bigger and we just have to figure out a way to live with each other. I'd rather the focus be on that, but I also understand the fear.

Your point is well taken. One way or the other we are going have to figure out how to get along.

343 CuriousLurker  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:10:03pm

re: #332 researchok

I should have been more specific, as I said.

I suppose I used the Arab/Israeli context because that is how most of the news reports were written- an error on their part.

I understand now how you were using it, and I know I may seem a bit pedantic about it at times, but there's already soooo much misunderstanding & mistrust out there where the West & Islam are concerned that I get concerned that causal statements will be taken out of context and assumed to be general truths.

The other 800 lb gorilla in the room is the relationship between Judaism and Islam. Even if you take Israel out of the equation, the relationship is at once love/hate.

A lot of history has been written and rewritten and rewritten again in defining that relationship.

Well, I'm not about to wrestle any 800 lb. gorillas this week (or any time in the near future for that matter). My wonderfully generous boss got me a MacBook Pro as a holiday gift and I'm basically off this week, so I'm much more interested in familiarizing myself with my new toy than with politics right now. :)

344 tradewind  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:11:14pm

re: #341 Stanley Sea
Second chance? Check.
New hard-wire?
Doubtful.
Regardless, he'll be twisting the wings off flies again in no time.

345 researchok  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:11:46pm

re: #343 CuriousLurker

I understand now how you were using it, and I know I may seem a bit pedantic about it at times, but there's already sooo much misunderstanding & mistrust out there where the West & Islam are concerned that I get concerned that causal statements will be taken out of context and assumed to be general truths.

Well, I'm not about to wrestle any 800 lb. gorillas this week (or any time in the near future for that matter). My wonderfully generous boss got me a MacBook Pro as a holiday gift and I'm basically off this week, so I'm much more interested in familiarizing myself with my new toy than with politics right now. :)

MacBook or no, wrestling big gorillas is always a tough proposition.

Stay away from Photoshop- it's addictive.

346 allegro  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:12:41pm

re: #340 tradewind

a) How do you know he's ' rehabbed ', and b) the particularly twisted crime he committed springs from a sociopathic personality disorder that doesn't easily reverse itself through a short incarceration, with 'resume pro ball lifestyle ' as the probation.

Has he been professionally diagnosed with a sociopathic personality disorder? In some cultures even within the US dog fighting is an acceptable "sport." If he grew up within that culture, just like farm kids grow up strangling chickens for the family dinner without a second thought, then dog fighting would be a normal part of life. Being educated otherwise that this is unacceptable could rehab him.

347 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:13:06pm

re: #344 tradewind

Second chance? Check.
New hard-wire?
Doubtful.
Regardless, he'll be twisting the wings off flies again in no time.

You know.

348 CuriousLurker  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:13:22pm

re: #337 researchok

I would hope 'American Islam' would have the opportunity to be an influence there.

I would too, but with the incoming Congress & upcoming 2012 elections it looks like we're going to be busy defending ourselves, so I guess trying to push change eastward will have to wait a few more years.

349 CuriousLurker  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:14:34pm

re: #338 marjoriemoon

The world is getting smaller, not bigger and we just have to figure out a way to live with each other. I'd rather the focus be on that, but I also understand the fear.

QFT ;)

350 CuriousLurker  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:15:35pm

re: #345 researchok

MacBook or no, wrestling big gorillas is always a tough proposition.

Stay away from Photoshop- it's addictive.

Heh, the whole Creative Suite is part of my job, so I couldn't stay away even if I wanted to.

351 tradewind  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:16:13pm

re: #346 allegro

In which cultures in the US is dog-fighting an accepted sport?
I'm in a large city in the South, and whenever an arrest is made here for dog-fighting, there's never a claim that it's culturally acceptable.
Just saw on the news where four new puppies were rescued from the side of the road where they had been dumped, barely alive and showing classic signs of being used for bait to teach dogs to fight.
There's no humanity in that.

352 researchok  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:17:58pm

re: #350 CuriousLurker

Heh, the whole Creative Suite is part of my job, so I couldn't stay away even if I wanted to.

I played with (read: obsessed) a trial version of PS. Drove me nuts.

I'll stick to spreadsheets- the only thing I'm really comfortable with.

Even reading that makes me sad.

353 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:19:36pm

re: #351 tradewind

It's culturally accepted in rural areas in MO. I remember my friend's dad raising his bristle pit bulls for it in the 70's.

354 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:19:36pm

re: #236 Obdicut

There is in no way a consensus that the crackdown on stuff like turnstile jumping had any effect or was the cause of the drop in crime rates in NYC.

That's because many criminologists have a vested and ideological interest in not admitting that Broken Windows Policing and CompSat work. But they clearly do work. Even now, despite the recession, New York City is far safer than it was in 1994.

355 CuriousLurker  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:19:59pm

re: #352 researchok

I played with (read: obsessed) a trial version of PS. Drove me nuts.

I'll stick to spreadsheets- the only thing I'm really comfortable with.

Even reading that makes me sad.

LOL, well don't feel bad—spreadsheets (any anything else involving math) are my mortal enemy.

356 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:20:39pm

re: #354 Dark_Falcon

That's because many criminologists have a vested and ideological interest in not admitting that Broken Windows Policing and CompSat work. But they clearly do work. Even now, despite the recession, New York City is far safer than it was in 1994.

That is an assertion without argument.

357 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:21:33pm

re: #317 marjoriemoon

Obi, if you'll note, I never called you an anarchist. I asked if you were one because your idea is nothing short of crazy to me.

What is crazy about the idea of rehabilitating criminals?

I do believe in rehabilitation, but I don't believe it's the first thing that should happen. Punishment is first. You can disagree with me, that's fine, but your idea surprised me because I don't find it reasonable and I find YOU reasonable.

Then maybe you should spend some time thinking about my idea, instead of reflexively rejecting it.

358 CuriousLurker  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:23:28pm

Okay, I'm going back to my new Mac now. Nite, everyone.

359 allegro  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:23:34pm

re: #351 tradewind

In which cultures in the US is dog-fighting an accepted sport?
I'm in a large city in the South, and whenever an arrest is made here for dog-fighting, there's never a claim that it's culturally acceptable.
Just saw on the news where four new puppies were rescued from the side of the road where they had been dumped, barely alive and showing classic signs of being used for bait to teach dogs to fight.
There's no humanity in that.

Both dog and chicken fighting is a very old, cultural thing. Like bull fighting. In our general US culture, it is not acceptable so unless you actually do some homework on the issue that fact could elude you. I find it extremely abhorrent personally as I do even eating animal flesh with the way we treat our agricultural animals. What we do to our cattle, pigs, chickens and other food animals is equally or more abhorrent so I can't single out dog and chicken fighting as being exceptional within our culture.

360 researchok  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:24:04pm

re: #355 CuriousLurker

LOL, well don't feel bad—spreadsheets (any anything else involving math) are my mortal enemy.

Spreadsheets do the math for you.

Your world has now gone from black and white to color.
/

361 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:25:41pm

re: #357 Obdicut

What is your idea, Obdi? And how do you propose to implement it? I couldn't get the gist of your point.

362 compound Idaho  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:27:17pm

re: #339 Stanley Sea

Rehabilitation. Imagine that.

He seems to be sorry. He may very well be rehabilitated. I just don't understand having the stomach to do it in the first place. It takes a different mind to torture an innocent living thing.

If he has had experiences like many gifted athletes, this is not a second chance, it is probably his 200th chance.

363 compound Idaho  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:29:43pm

P.S. I make my son take off his VT shirt when he plays with his dog in the yard.

364 allegro  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:31:31pm

re: #362 compound Idaho

He seems to be sorry. He may very well be rehabilitated. I just don't understand having the stomach to do it in the first place. It takes a different mind to torture an innocent living thing.

Have you ever visited a factory farm where animals are raised for food? We city folk are so divorced from that reality that it takes a Michael Vick torturing dogs for sport to get us enraged at animal cruelty. We are all a part of it.

365 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:32:18pm

re: #362 compound Idaho

He seems to be sorry. He may very well be rehabilitated. I just don't understand having the stomach to do it in the first place. It takes a different mind to torture an innocent living thing.

If he has had experiences like many gifted athletes, this is not a second chance, it is probably his 200th chance.

Bottom line, like with every other person I read about or deal with personally, I will give them a 2nd chance. Especially if they were incarcerated for a crime. Talk about payback. That's the point right?

That's what bugs me the most. There is a definite bad human tendency to never ever forgive. What? That's fucked.

366 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:32:26pm

re: #361 prairiefire

What is your idea, Obdi? And how do you propose to implement it? I couldn't get the gist of your point.

My idea is in no way weird or strange. It is the idea the Quakers had when they started our prison system. It is an idea that we at least pay lip service to: That prison should rehabilitate prisoners into people who won't commit crimes when they get out of prison.

I have no idea why this is being treated like some insane fucking idea from Batshit City in Looney County.

367 tradewind  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:33:32pm

re: #364 allegro
I understand the problems with agricultural practices re animals, but there's no moral equivalency there re the people who raise dogs to tear each other apart for lulz.

368 tradewind  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:35:44pm

re: #365 Stanley Sea
Do you think that child molesters and pedophiles can be truly rehabilitated?**
Because the second-chance stories there are pretty discouraging.
** as opposed to merely ' discouraged '

369 allegro  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:37:48pm

re: #367 tradewind

I understand the problems with agricultural practices re animals, but there's no moral equivalency there re the people who raise dogs to tear each other apart for lulz.

OK, how about the moral equivalency of humans beating the crap out of each other - and killing each other - for the lulz that happens about daily on PPV? It's called boxing, martial arts, mixed martial arts...

370 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:38:29pm

re: #356 Obdicut

That is an assertion without argument.

Here are two of the articles I've read on the subject. City Journal is my main source on the NYPD:

America’s Best Urban Police Force
Heather Mac Donald

Intelligent Policing Comes to New Jersey
Judith Miller

371 tradewind  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:38:55pm

re: #369 allegro
Pretty sick.
Really, they kill each other? There are snuff broadcasts?
Although compared with dog fighting, ...they do have free will.

372 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:39:32pm

re: #357 Obdicut

What is crazy about the idea of rehabilitating criminals?

Then maybe you should spend some time thinking about my idea, instead of reflexively rejecting it.

Wow. When I said I've worked for 30 years with lawyers, judges and cops, that's not merely a matter of opinion. Do you understand that is my life? I'll be 49 next month. I've been in this field since I was 18.

Since I assume you have not had that kind of exposure, I'm telling you I have. And I listen to a lot of very brilliant, very moral people who understand what the point of prison is and the necessity.

You hear what you want to hear. I said (how many times?) that I do believe in rehabilitation, but that is not the point of justice. Punishment is the point of justice. Rehab is secondary.

373 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:39:55pm

This is not a comment on the conversation.
The "Whatever" Baby:

Youtube Video
374 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:41:02pm

re: #372 marjoriemoon

Yes. It's your personal, anecdotal opinion. There are many other personal, anedotal opinions with as much experience as you who disagree with you.

That is why appeal to personal authority is considered a fallacy, not a good, strong argument.

You hear what you want to hear. I said (how many times?) that I do believe in rehabilitation, but that is not the point of justice. Punishment is the point of justice. Rehab is secondary.

You haven't actually explained why in any non-circular fashion.

375 tradewind  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:42:16pm

re: #372 marjoriemoon
Exactly.
It is indeed a great thing when someone turns his or her life around in prison, reforms and leaves there better for the experience... but it's not the primary objective.

376 tradewind  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:43:26pm

re: #374 Obdicut
The point of prison above rehabilitation is protection of society through removal of a threat.
Not brain surgery.

377 allegro  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:44:14pm

re: #375 tradewind

It is indeed a great thing when someone turns his or her life around in prison, reforms and leaves there better for the experience... but it's not the primary objective.

I don't intend to speak for Obi, but he seems to be suggesting that if rehabilitation was the primary objective that we would have considerably less crime and fewer imprisoned citizens.

378 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:45:06pm

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

379 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:45:21pm

re: #375 tradewind

Exactly.
It is indeed a great thing when someone turns his or her life around in prison, reforms and leaves there better for the experience... but it's not the primary objective.

Agreed. The main point of putting them in prison is to punish them and prevent them from harming the public.

380 compound idaho  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:47:54pm

re: #365 Stanley Sea

I don't disagree with you. I consider myself a Christian. But honestly, I have always struggled with that whole forgiveness thing. I am well aware God sees it differently.

My main point was that I cannot imagine killing a dog, watch them fight, not pet them on the head, whatever.

381 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:50:33pm

re: #365 Stanley Sea

Not a problem for me. I have never made a mistake. So, I don't have to forgive.

And I am not a hypocrite since I have never needed forgiveness.

//

382 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:51:21pm

re: #380 compound idaho

I don't disagree with you. I consider myself a Christian. But honestly, I have always struggled with that whole forgiveness thing. I am well aware God sees it differently.

My main point was that I cannot imagine killing a dog, watch them fight, not pet them on the head, whatever.

What about shooting an animal just for the sport of it?

383 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:53:58pm

re: #375 tradewind

I think Obdi's point (and I sure he can do better than I in explaining it) that currently the purpose of prison is primarily punishment.

To quote Dr. Phil, "How's that working out for ya?"

For Obdi, not too well. Recidivism is way too high and we pay way too much for the little return we get. Maybe prison can do both - be a punishment yes, but provide some hope for those who are redeemable.

384 allegro  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:55:19pm

re: #380 compound idaho

My main point was that I cannot imagine killing a dog, watch them fight, not pet them on the head, whatever.

My mom was raised on a dairy farm during the great depression when animals were food. Period. She couldn't imagine having an animal of any kind inside the house as a pet - it just wasn't done. They were animals. She was certainly never cruel to any - well besides killing one when needed to feed the family. In fact, I never saw anyone go to greater effort to treat and save a sick animal. This was the way she was raised and the beliefs she grew up with.

Then she gave birth to me. Heh. I carried in any kind of critter I could catch and begged multiple times a day for a dog. My parents finally got me a spaniel when I was about 8 years old. That spaniel was soon inside the house and a part of the family. It took a lot of mind changing to get my mom to accept this whole new mindset. She was successfully "rehabilitated."

I'm just saying that cultural influences are powerful and not everyone grows up with similar attitudes. They can, however, change.

385 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:55:41pm

re: #374 Obdicut

Yes. It's your personal, anecdotal opinion. There are many other personal, anedotal opinions with as much experience as you who disagree with you.

That is why appeal to personal authority is considered a fallacy, not a good, strong argument.

You haven't actually explained why in any non-circular fashion.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

That's the explanation I'm going with.

386 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:57:56pm

I know this is a weird analogy, but stay with me....

Think of prison like a personal diet that you have just started - no cookies (or whatever your favorite treat is). While you eat no cookies, you lose weight. But as soon as that diet is relaxed, you eat more cookies...which means you have to go on a more restrictive diet to lose weight....which means you lose weight but eat more later and then have to go on an even more restrictive diet...rinse, cycle, repeat.

We are running prisons in such a way that will, based on current data, almost insure more heinous crimes will be committed by an ever growing prison population.

Can we punish and rehab. I don't know...but it seems the punish part is only biting us in the ass.

387 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 6:59:47pm

Rehabilitation is communism. Or socialism. Or liberal.
Or something.
Point is, it's baaadddd, mmmkay?
/

388 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:00:49pm

re: #386 brownbagj

We either need Lester Maddox's "Better class of prisoner" or we need to make fewer crimes.

389 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:01:43pm

re: #377 allegro

I don't intend to speak for Obi, but he seems to be suggesting that if rehabilitation was the primary objective that we would have considerably less crime and fewer imprisoned citizens.

And what Obi won't accept is that doesn't work. It doesn't mean that people shouldn't have a shot at rehabilitation inasmuch as it would have any effect, but only after or while, their sentence is served.

There are a lot of sociopaths in prison. Hell, there have been a few that have visited here that are out there just living their lives.

[Link: www.youmeworks.com...]

390 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:02:16pm

re: #388 Decatur Deb

I would start with the drug war. Many start out n prison as mary jane druggies and wind up much, much worse.

They now have a record which means they have a hard time getting a job AND have learned how to perpetrate REAL crimes.

391 compound idaho  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:02:32pm

re: #382 Varek Raith

What about shooting an animal just for the sport of it?

That is an excellent point. I don't hunt anymore for that very reason. No more fishing either. I continue to eat meat.

392 allegro  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:03:34pm

re: #389 marjoriemoon

And what Obi won't accept is that doesn't work. It doesn't mean that people shouldn't have a shot at rehabilitation inasmuch as it would have any effect, but only after or while, their sentence is served.

There are a lot of sociopaths in prison. Hell, there have been a few that have visited here that are out there just living their lives.

I can't agree that it doesn't work. There have been many examples otherwise. I find the attitude of throwing people away without even trying to be... disturbing.

393 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:05:24pm

re: #389 marjoriemoon

And what Obi won't accept is that doesn't work. It doesn't mean that people shouldn't have a shot at rehabilitation inasmuch as it would have any effect, but only after or while, their sentence is served.

There are a lot of sociopaths in prison. Hell, there have been a few that have visited here that are out there just living their lives.

[Link: www.youmeworks.com...]

Maybe the answer is in your last sentence. Yes, prison is a punishment but could also be a chance for rehabilitation. Remove the dange from society, pay a price but also have an opportunity to not return to that life.

It makes sense to me. A little of both, in parallel makes more sense than an extreme on either side.

Also, the type of crime committed would come in to play. Some people are just sick...period. But the vast majority aren't just throwaways. We, as a country, can do better.

394 compound idaho  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:07:22pm

re: #384 allegro

I have changed. I used to hunt. However I am not against hunting. Catch and release is an odd thing. I have less of a problem with someone that is going to use the animal for food that someone that just torments them.

395 Usually refered to as anyways  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:08:47pm

An Effective Solution to the Justice System’s Revolving Door


The 30 men in the group were called by the authorities “the most dangerous men in this prison,” reported J. Diaz, a criminal rehabilitation expert.

“They were on heroin for 10 to 25 years,” Diaz said. “Until two months ago, they were all still on heroin inside the prison. The warden wouldn’t even come in here without five armed guards.”

Things are different now, Diaz noted. You can see the difference in their faces. These inmates—the roughest in a tough Mexican prison—are today drug-free and want to stay that way. And, equally important, they are learning how to live honest lives outside prison upon release.

Diaz, who supervises the Criminon program within the prison, has worked regularly with the inmates and personally observed the changes, which others have termed miraculous.

396 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:09:54pm

re: #384 allegro

My mom was raised on a dairy farm during the great depression when animals were food. Period. She couldn't imagine having an animal of any kind inside the house as a pet - it just wasn't done. They were animals. She was certainly never cruel to any - well besides killing one when needed to feed the family. In fact, I never saw anyone go to greater effort to treat and save a sick animal. This was the way she was raised and the beliefs she grew up with.

Then she gave birth to me. Heh. I carried in any kind of critter I could catch and begged multiple times a day for a dog. My parents finally got me a spaniel when I was about 8 years old. That spaniel was soon inside the house and a part of the family. It took a lot of mind changing to get my mom to accept this whole new mindset. She was successfully "rehabilitated."

I'm just saying that cultural influences are powerful and not everyone grows up with similar attitudes. They can, however, change.

But there's a world of difference here. Your mother respected her animals, even those she raised for food.

There's no way that I can believe that anyone living in today's age, with what we know about dogs particularly, that anyone who has spent any time with a dog understands that it feels anguish and pain, you can't tell me Vick didn't know it. He either didn't care or he's a sociopath. And being raised in it isn't an excuse.

He certainly did serve his time, but that doesn't make him a man of fine moral standing.

397 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:10:20pm

Yikes!

1. Longest Sentence Ever Demanded

It’s not clear if it was ever handed down, but the top spot on this list has to go for the most excessive, longest sentence ever demanded. Particularly considering the crime.

In Palma de Mallorca, Spain, on March 11, 1972, a twenty two year old man named Gabriel March Grandos went to trial. The crime he was accused of was the failure to deliver some forty two thousand or so letters. As a mailman, this amounted, in the eyes of the government, to fraud.

The sentence requested? Three hundred and eighty four thousand, nine hundred and twelve years.

Without a doubt, delivery of the mail is a very important task, however, one has to wonder whether the sentence requested was not, perhaps, just a little excessive, given the crime!

398 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:11:59pm

re: #393 brownbagj

By least sentence I mean last sentence of the first paragraph. This has to be possible.

399 Usually refered to as anyways  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:12:16pm

re: #397 Varek Raith

Yikes!

/ Imagine how old his kids will be when he gets out!

400 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:12:33pm

"If a kid calls his grandma Mommy and his mommy Pam , he's going to jail!"

--Chris Rock

401 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:13:04pm

re: #368 tradewind

Do you think that child molesters and pedophiles can be truly rehabilitated?**
Because the second-chance stories there are pretty discouraging.
** as opposed to merely ' discouraged '

Oh please. I'm really glad I don't deal with you in normal life.

402 allegro  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:13:11pm

re: #394 compound idaho

I have changed. I used to hunt. However I am not against hunting. Catch and release is an odd thing. I have less of a problem with someone that is going to use the animal for food that someone that just torments them.

I have no problem at all with responsible hunting. In fact, it is necessary for the health of some populations since we have essentially eliminated most other natural predators. My late husband was an avid hunter and fisherman and I entirely supported him because I knew he was a good, responsible hunter. I am a retired wildlife biologist who understands the dynamics well. I would still eat meat if it wasn't for the horrid methods used today in factory farms that I just cannot support due to the cruelty and ghastly conditions.

403 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:14:22pm

re: #386 brownbagj

I know this is a weird analogy, but stay with me...

Think of prison like a personal diet that you have just started - no cookies (or whatever your favorite treat is). While you eat no cookies, you lose weight. But as soon as that diet is relaxed, you eat more cookies...which means you have to go on a more restrictive diet to lose weight...which means you lose weight but eat more later and then have to go on an even more restrictive diet...rinse, cycle, repeat.

We are running prisons in such a way that will, based on current data, almost insure more heinous crimes will be committed by an ever growing prison population.

Can we punish and rehab. I don't know...but it seems the punish part is only biting us in the ass.

The only place it's not working is with so called victimless crimes, as I said above. Marijuana, and prostitution and gambling to some extent.

There are kids who get caught in the system and by the time they're in their 20s, they're already hardened criminals. The way to fix that is to fix society. Have less poverty, better schools, etc. I tell this to my rightwing friends all the time when they complain about "too much government" (codeword for 'welfare"). Meanwhile, the middle class has been shrinking for decades and poverty has grown.

404 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:16:04pm

re: #381 brownbagj

Not a problem for me. I have never made a mistake. So, I don't have to forgive.

And I am not a hypocrite since I have never needed forgiveness.

//

AND AGAIN, I CLICK YOUR AVATAR AND LAUGH MY ASS OFF

405 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:20:09pm

re: #386 brownbagj

I know this is a weird analogy, but stay with me...

Think of prison like a personal diet that you have just started - no cookies (or whatever your favorite treat is). While you eat no cookies, you lose weight. But as soon as that diet is relaxed, you eat more cookies...which means you have to go on a more restrictive diet to lose weight...which means you lose weight but eat more later and then have to go on an even more restrictive diet...rinse, cycle, repeat.

We are running prisons in such a way that will, based on current data, almost insure more heinous crimes will be committed by an ever growing prison population.

Can we punish and rehab. I don't know...but it seems the punish part is only biting us in the ass.

We CAN rehab, if we spend the money. We refuse to do so, so therefore, we are fucked.

Very obvious to me.

406 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:20:30pm

re: #397 Varek Raith

JERRY: Hey, I've been trying to jam stuff in the box, like you told me, but sometimes it says, like, "Photographs - Do not bend".

NEWMAN: "Do not bend". (Laughs evilly) Just crease, crumple, cram.. you'll do fine. (Phone rings. Newman answers it) Hello?.. This is he. I don't understand..

very well. (Hangs up in disappointment)

JERRY: What?

NEWMAN: That was the Vice President of the post office. I didn't get the transfer.. They knew it wasn't me doing my route!

JERRY: How did they know?!

NEWMAN: (Stands up) Too many people go their mail! Close to 80%. No body from the post office has ever cracked the 50% barrier! It's like the 3-minute mile!

JERRY: (Pleading) I tried my best!

NEWMAN: Exactly. You're a disgrace to the uniform. (Newman takes off Jerry's mailman hat. Jerry turns his head in shame. Newman then tears the post office

badge from Jerry's coat)

JERRY: You know, this is your coat.

NEWMAN: (Realizing) Damn!

407 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:20:58pm

re: #405 Stanley Sea

Pay now or pay later....we always choose later with interest.

408 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:21:01pm

Kick it up a level of abstraction, and the purpose of the criminal justice system is not to punish or rehabilitate, but to produce less destructive, anti-social behavior. In that sense, we should be looking for something a little smarter. (Alternately, the current methods might be quite satisfactory to a large part of the electorate.)

409 Quant  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:21:12pm

re: #165 Obdicut

I'm asking you what the virtue of that punishment is.
[Snip]

Obdicut, I agree with you that there should be a much greater focus on rehabilitation of criminals. However, as you have seen on this thread, many people expect people who commit crimes to suffer in some way (e.g. loss of liberty) for their misdeeds. If the state does not punish criminals or if their treatment is seen as being too lenient for the crime, you could get problems with vigilante justice and kangeroo courts.

This has happened to a certain extent in South Africa. The police during apartheid times were feared and now they are viewed by many people as ineffective and corrupt, and so communities sometimes deal with criminals themselves. Mob justice is not fair or pretty, and innocent people are targeted far too often.

In answer to your question above, I think punishment probably does have some part to play in keeping order in the sense that it prevents vigilantism. To me, rehabilitation would be preferable, but it I guess it takes more effort and careful planning than most governments are able or willing to provide.

I don't know much about rehabilitation efforts. Are there any countries where rehabilitation programmes have been successfully implemented?

It's after 5am here and I must go to sleep now, but I'll check up on this thread again tomorrow.

410 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:23:54pm

re: #409 Quant

If there were to be a shift, the shift would have to include some punishment and some rehabilitation.

There has to be a price to pay otherwise you could commit the crime so that you could get free vocational skills....and don't think some wouldn't try that.

Prison should be a place no one wants to go because freedom is reduced. It should also be a place where those who have committed crimes can learn a better way of life.

It doesn't have to be either or and I would propose it shouldn't be.

411 allegro  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:24:06pm

re: #396 marjoriemoon

There's no way that I can believe that anyone living in today's age, with what we know about dogs particularly, that anyone who has spent any time with a dog understands that it feels anguish and pain, you can't tell me Vick didn't know it. He either didn't care or he's a sociopath. And being raised in it isn't an excuse.

He certainly did serve his time, but that doesn't make him a man of fine moral standing.

I am not at all excusing Vick's behavior and treatment of dogs. It is inexcusable and beyond abhorrent to me. Nothing gets my blood boiling more than seeing the mistreatment of a critter or a kid. I am also not trying to say he is a moral man. I don't know him. All I can say is that I believe rehabilitation and education is possible to change attitudes. He was convicted, did his time, and has since done public service appearances to educate on the evils of dog fighting to young men who may think it's a fun thing to do. If he can change the minds of those kids and prevent the abuse of more dogs, then I applaud his efforts.

412 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:25:08pm

re: #404 Stanley Sea

You have no idea how hard it was getting them all in the same room.

413 compound Idaho  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:27:14pm

re: #396 marjoriemoon

I have no problem at all, in fact support hunting, fishing, raising and eating animals. However I remember the day I realized I did not want to kill, clean, and prepare them myself. It was not an intellectual thing. It was a gut thing. Had a fish in my hands at the time. I think I'll take up golfing instead. Hypocritical? maybe. I'll think about it a bit more.

I would have to give up the Idaho nic if I came down on the no hunting/fishing side. I cannot see that happening.

414 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:28:37pm

re: #400 Decatur Deb

"If a kid calls his grandma Mommy and his mommy Pam , he's going to jail!"

--Chris Rock

Chris Rock makes a very good point there. He's not any sort of conservative, but he very clearly understands the importance of family in the life of a child.

415 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:30:38pm

re: #409 Quant

Obdicut, I agree with you that there should be a much greater focus on rehabilitation of criminals. However, as you have seen on this thread, many people expect people who commit crimes to suffer in some way (e.g. loss of liberty) for their misdeeds. If the state does not punish criminals or if their treatment is seen as being too lenient for the crime, you could get problems with vigilante justice and kangeroo courts.

This has happened to a certain extent in South Africa. The police during apartheid times were feared and now they are viewed by many people as ineffective and corrupt, and so communities sometimes deal with criminals themselves. Mob justice is not fair or pretty, and innocent people are targeted far too often.

In answer to your question above, I think punishment probably does have some part to play in keeping order in the sense that it prevents vigilantism. To me, rehabilitation would be preferable, but it I guess it takes more effort and careful planning than most governments are able or willing to provide.

I don't know much about rehabilitation efforts. Are there any countries where rehabilitation programmes have been successfully implemented?

It's after 5am here and I must go to sleep now, but I'll check up on this thread again tomorrow.

I would like to be clear, though, that punishment is not metted out because of revenge or to make them suffer. When you punish your child for lying to you, or doing something they were told specifically not to do, do you punish them for revenge? Of course not! You're trying to teach them right from wrong. That there are consequences for doing something wrong, so you punish.

416 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:33:09pm

re: #411 allegro

I am not at all excusing Vick's behavior and treatment of dogs. It is inexcusable and beyond abhorrent to me. Nothing gets my blood boiling more than seeing the mistreatment of a critter or a kid. I am also not trying to say he is a moral man. I don't know him. All I can say is that I believe rehabilitation and education is possible to change attitudes. He was convicted, did his time, and has since done public service appearances to educate on the evils of dog fighting to young men who may think it's a fun thing to do. If he can change the minds of those kids and prevent the abuse of more dogs, then I applaud his efforts.

The only way that Vick can hope to be forgiven if he keeps up animal rights awareness, but he pretty much has to make it a lifelong pursuit at this point. I mean, if he cares about public opinion. I think yes, people would eventually get beyond it.

417 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:36:12pm

re: #416 marjoriemoon

I'm not sure that there is anything Vick can do to be forgiven.
He treated animals lives as sport.

418 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:36:21pm

re: #413 compound Idaho

I have no problem at all, in fact support hunting, fishing, raising and eating animals. However I remember the day I realized I did not want to kill, clean, and prepare them myself. It was not an intellectual thing. It was a gut thing. Had a fish in my hands at the time. I think I'll take up golfing instead. Hypocritical? maybe. I'll think about it a bit more.

I would have to give up the Idaho nic if I came down on the no hunting/fishing side. I cannot see that happening.

hehe My idea on hunting and such have also changed. I am no longer a fan. Fishing is a little different, or maybe I'm the hypocritical one. I used to fish a lot when I was a kid.

419 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:38:02pm

re: #417 Floral Giraffe

I'm not sure that there is anything Vick can do to be forgiven.
He treated animals lives as sport.

Contrary to popular belief, I do believe in redemption :) But he's got a really lonnnggg way to go for that.

420 allegro  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:38:15pm

re: #417 Floral Giraffe

I'm not sure that there is anything Vick can do to be forgiven.
He treated animals lives as sport.

If treating animal lives as sport is your criteria, then I fear you have many millions of people to put on the same level as Vick.

421 BishopX  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:41:10pm

re: #415 marjoriemoon

This is bullshit. We put people in prison so they suffer, we make jokes about it. What's the only acceptable rape joke? It's a prison joke. Our system isn't designed to rehabilitate people and it isn't designed to use punishment to correct their behavior.

Criminal penalties are a classic case of low-probability high impact events. Criminals break the law often,and often don't get caught. When they do get caught they often get a disproportionate sentence. Human beings are really, really bad at judging these things. When something rare happens we tend to assume that it's a freak accident, rather than doing something wrong a million times before it bites us in the ass.

422 allegro  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:41:23pm

re: #418 marjoriemoon

hehe My idea on hunting and such have also changed. I am no longer a fan. Fishing is a little different, or maybe I'm the hypocritical one. I used to fish a lot when I was a kid.

Hunting of deer, javelina, and other game populations really is essential to their health. We have over-hunted and eliminated wolves, coyotes, and big cats who keep the populations healthy by preventing severe over population.

423 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:46:54pm

re: #421 BishopX

This is bullshit. We put people in prison so they suffer, we make jokes about it. What's the only acceptable rape joke? It's a prison joke. Our system isn't designed to rehabilitate people and it isn't designed to use punishment to correct their behavior.

Criminal penalties are a classic case of low-probability high impact events. Criminals break the law often,and often don't get caught. When they do get caught they often get a disproportionate sentence. Human beings are really, really bad at judging these things. When something rare happens we tend to assume that it's a freak accident, rather than doing something wrong a million times before it bites us in the ass.

Well alrighty then! You got links for that stuff? Career criminals who get unjust sentences?

424 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:52:10pm

re: #422 allegro

Hunting of deer, javelina, and other game populations really is essential to their health. We have over-hunted and eliminated wolves, coyotes, and big cats who keep the populations healthy by preventing severe over population.

And once those coyote hunts abated, they've come roaring back. And now they've moved to fill gasps left by other predators in eastern states like Illinois.

425 compound idaho  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 7:57:10pm

re: #418 marjoriemoon

My other problem (among many) is that so many people are willing to give Vic a "second" chance, but are unwilling to give Tim Tebow one chance (not an NFL style quarterback, bad mechanics ....... ) Think about it. Vic killed dogs for fun and entertainment. Tebow seems to be living his faith. Like the rest of us he too will, no, already has fallen short. I fell short just about the time I left the womb. Hell, I probably started before I left the womb. I have become convinced the Vic/Tebow comparison thing is an issue of bigotry.

426 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 8:06:26pm

re: #425 compound idaho

My other problem (among many) is that so many people are willing to give Vic a "second" chance, but are unwilling to give Tim Tebow one chance (not an NFL style quarterback, bad mechanics ... ) Think about it. Vic killed dogs for fun and entertainment. Tebow seems to be living his faith. Like the rest of us he too will, no, already has fallen short. I fell short just about the time I left the womb. Hell, I probably started before I left the womb. I have become convinced the Vic/Tebow comparison thing is an issue of bigotry.

What did Tebow do?

427 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 8:13:55pm

re: #420 allegro

If treating animal lives as sport is your criteria, then I fear you have many millions of people to put on the same level as Vick.

easy target

428 BishopX  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 8:14:16pm

re: #423 marjoriemoon

Sure, here's a few:

25 years for burglary

life in prison for real estate fraud

Life sentence for shoplifting

Additionally there are a whole bunch of people who have been fucked over by disproportionate sentences for drug violations. Look here for some particularly bad cases.

I'd like to note that I don't think your thesis about punishment correcting behavior is wrong per se. It's just the the US isn't doing it effectively. If you kick a dog in the ribs and throw him outside every 5th time he shits on the rug you're going to get a maladjusted dog. If you do it the day after he shits on the rug you're training a monster. If you yell at your dog promptly every single time you see poop on your rug...that works.

Long sentences applied after an arduous court process don't deter crime, they warehouse people and torture them to make the rest of us feel safe.

Short, swift and consistently applied sentences do deter crime, look at the use of administrative sanctions by parole officer in Oregon (particularly the DROP program). The problem is that this kind of stuff is very labor intensive, doesn't pad a private companies pockets, and looks bad for politicians.

429 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 8:15:53pm

re: #421 BishopX

This is bullshit. We put people in prison so they suffer, we make jokes about it. What's the only acceptable rape joke? It's a prison joke. Our system isn't designed to rehabilitate people and it isn't designed to use punishment to correct their behavior.

Criminal penalties are a classic case of low-probability high impact events. Criminals break the law often,and often don't get caught. When they do get caught they often get a disproportionate sentence. Human beings are really, really bad at judging these things. When something rare happens we tend to assume that it's a freak accident, rather than doing something wrong a million times before it bites us in the ass.

Yes, this is the ultimate double standard bullshit.

Rape is good if in prison. BULLSHIT

430 compound idaho  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 8:17:53pm

re: #426 marjoriemoon

What did Tebow do?

My point exactly!

431 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 8:20:29pm

re: #425 compound idaho

My other problem (among many) is that so many people are willing to give Vic a "second" chance, but are unwilling to give Tim Tebow one chance (not an NFL style quarterback, bad mechanics ... ) Think about it. Vic killed dogs for fun and entertainment. Tebow seems to be living his faith. Like the rest of us he too will, no, already has fallen short. I fell short just about the time I left the womb. Hell, I probably started before I left the womb. I have become convinced the Vic/Tebow comparison thing is an issue of bigotry.

What???? I just dont get this comparison. I'm a fucking Florida Athiest Gator. Click my nic.

Tebow got grief because he had the platform to promote his not so popular stand. Whatver. Bitch all we want. I am totally against his godlieness, but dammnit, he's Tebow. Top selling NFL jersey.

432 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 8:28:17pm

re: #431 Stanley Sea

What??? I just dont get this comparison. I'm a fucking Florida Athiest Gator. Click my nic.

Tebow got grief because he had the platform to promote his not so popular stand. Whatver. Bitch all we want. I am totally against his godlieness, but dammnit, he's Tebow. Top selling NFL jersey.

What's all this about Tebow anyway?

433 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 8:33:42pm

re: #432 Dark_Falcon

What's all this about Tebow anyway?

Bizarre

434 compound idaho  Wed, Dec 29, 2010 8:37:39pm

re: #431 Stanley Sea

What??? I just don't get this comparison. I'm a fucking Florida Athiest Atheist Gator. Click my nic.

Tebow got grief because he had the platform to promote his not so popular stand. Whatver. Bitch all we want. I am totally against his godlieness, but dammnit, he's Tebow. Top selling NFL jersey.

Wow! My point was that people are willing to give Vic a "second" chance. Why all the negativity around Tebow before he gets his first chance. Don't bother answering. I already know. Vic tortures dogs. Tebow mentions his faith.

I know, I went way way out on a limb correcting anyone elses spelling, grammar, etc., but in this case I thought is was hummorous. English is only barely my first language.

435 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 30, 2010 3:39:56am

re: #409 Quant

I really don't understand. We have rehabilitative programs in this country. And they can be shown to be successful. I do not get why people think this is some shockingly new and different idea.

436 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 30, 2010 4:52:16am

re: #423 marjoriemoon

Well alrighty then! You got links for that stuff? Career criminals who get unjust sentences?

The three strikes law in California has produced some of the stupidest sentences ever.

437 Decatur Deb  Thu, Dec 30, 2010 5:39:30am

It's morning in CST already. I would have thought we'd solve the incarceration problem by now. This is from the current CNN news, note the crimeand punishment:

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

438 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 30, 2010 5:58:22am

re: #437 Decatur Deb

Heh. And notice that Barbour is clearly stating that the purpose of imprisonment is rehabilitation. And that cost is one of the reasons for release.

Such a crazy system. Glad they're being set free. Doesn't erase what happened, of course.

439 Decatur Deb  Thu, Dec 30, 2010 6:03:21am

re: #438 Obdicut

Look at the math: 11dollars=32 years in the yard transmuted to 50+million dollars public costs. Not that I'm a fan of armed robbers, but the self-defeating aspect of this is staggering.

440 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 30, 2010 7:11:30am

re: #415 marjoriemoon

That is a different reason than you originally gave for punishment, by the way. You originally said punishment was for the sake of the victim.

Now you are saying you endorse punishment because it is rehabilitative.

441 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 30, 2010 9:09:20am

re: #236 Obdicut

There is in no way a consensus that the crackdown on stuff like turnstile jumping had any effect or was the cause of the drop in crime rates in NYC.

Well, you could read all about it. It's not hard to find material. Wikipedia on Broken Windows theory.

The book's author, George L. Kelling, was hired as a consultant to the New York City Transit Authority in 1985, and measures to test the Broken Windows theory were implemented by David Gunn. The presence of graffiti was intensively targeted, and the subway system was cleaned from 1984 until 1990. Kelling has also been hired as a consultant to the LAPD and to the Boston Police Department.

In 1990, William J. Bratton became head of the New York City Transit Police. Bratton described George L. Kelling as his "intellectual mentor", and implemented zero tolerance of fare-dodging, easier arrestee processing methods and background checks on all those arrested. Republican Mayor Rudy Giuliani and his police commissioner Howard Safir also adopted the strategy more widely in New York City after Giuliani's election in 1993, under the rubrics of "zero tolerance" and "quality of life".

Thus, Giuliani's "zero tolerance" roll out was part of an interlocking set of wider reforms, crucial parts of which had been underway since 1985. Giuliani had the police more strictly enforce the law against subway fare evasion, public drinking, urination, and the "squeegee men" who had been wiping windshields of stopped cars and demanding payment. According to the 2001 study of crime trends in New York by George Kelling and William Sousa,[3] rates of both petty and serious crime fell suddenly and significantly, and continued to drop for the following ten years.
[edit] Albuquerque

Similar success occurred in Albuquerque, New Mexico in the late 1990s with its Safe Streets Program. Operating under the theory that American Westerners use roadways much in the same way that American Easterners use subways, the developers of the program reasoned that lawlessness on the roadways had much the same effect as the problem individuals in New York subways. This program was extensively reviewed by NHTSA and published in a case study.[4]
[edit] Lowell, Massachusetts

In 2005, Harvard University and Suffolk University researchers worked with local police to identify 34 "crime hot spots" in Lowell, Massachusetts. In half of the spots, authorities cleared trash, fixed streetlights, enforced building codes, discouraged loiterers, made more misdemeanor arrests, and expanded mental health services and aid for the homeless. In the other half, there was no change to routine police service.

The areas that received additional attention experienced a 20% reduction in calls to the police. The study concluded that cleaning up the physical environment is more effective than misdemeanor arrests, and that increasing social services had no effect.[5][6]
[edit] The Netherlands



And so on. If there is not a consensus, it is because your definition of consensus is overly strict.

442 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 30, 2010 9:13:56am

re: #441 lostlakehiker

And so on. If there is not a consensus, it is because your definition of consensus is overly strict.

No, it's because there's not a consensus.

Correlation is not causation, no matter how much you want it to be.


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