Sarah Palin Deleting Old Tweets and Gunsight Maps

US News • Views: 47,149

Here’s another thread to discuss breaking news on the mass murder in Arizona, targeting Democratic Rep. Gabrielle Giffords.

Here’s a picture of the suspect, Jared Lee Loughner.

And meanwhile, Sarah Palin has been going back and deleting the gunsight maps on her PAC website, and old tweets like this one:

UPDATE at 1/8/11 2:32:06 pm:

Correction: contrary to reports, that tweet above was not deleted.

However, the gunsight maps definitely were removed from takebackthe20.com, and the site is currently offline.

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457 comments
1 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:22:15pm

Fortunately, no one has a screen shot of that.

2 bratwurst  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:22:39pm

Prediction on how long it takes until a comment to the effect of "left AND right wing extremists are BOTH bad" arrives in this thread?

3 Obdicut  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:23:02pm

I would love to believe that she's deleting these because she's realized how dangerous they are, rather than deleting them because they're now a political liability for her.

I don't.

4 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:23:40pm

It is a case of too little too late.

5 Lidane  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:23:45pm

I love how these imbeciles think that just deleting something off a website or Twitter or Facebook makes it go away forever.

6 ag in houston  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:24:38pm

They are both bad.

Charles has been prediciting this craziness for some time. I had no doubt that it would come.

It will happen again until this extremism stops on all sides.

On top of the craziness, she is Jewish.

This is not lost on me or many others.

7 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:24:49pm

Aha! At a book fair! Proves he's a lefty!
/

8 tradewind  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:24:55pm

Deleting old thoughts that turn out to be not such great ones is nothing new.
All pols.... and others, like actors... do it.

9 researchok  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:25:11pm

It is sad when politicians don't understand what the rest of already know: You can't unring a bell.

Ms Palin will be held to account for her rhetoric.

I won't blame her for the nut jobs who post inflammatory remarks on her website but in fact, she is guilty of enabling these fools.

10 lawhawk  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:25:21pm

re: #5 Lidane

It could be a form of buyers remorse... She bought into/espoused the ideology - now she owns it and all that comes from it.

11 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:25:27pm

re: #2 bratwurst

Prediction on how long it takes until a comment to the effect of "left AND right wing extremists are BOTH bad" arrives in this thread?

Six comments - I think you win.

12 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:26:02pm

Deletiating is much easier than refudiating.

13 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:26:06pm

That cat is so far out of the bag now there's no way for her ever to make that go away.

She called for political violence, and political violence ensued.

14 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:26:18pm

re: #12 wrenchwench

(snicker)

15 HAL2010  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:26:27pm

Here is another picture I think you should publish (I believe it has now been taken down from the website).

It was outrageous then and it is even more so now.

"We've diagnosed the problem ... Help us prescribe the solution."

16 Girth  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:26:39pm

re: #3 Obdicut

I would love to believe that she's deleting these because she's realized how dangerous they are, rather than deleting them because they're now a political liability for her.

I don't.

Agreed.

I don't blame Sarah Palin for this. That's ridiculous. But I would hope that she would have the common sense, decency and good taste to look at all these images and words and say, "The use of violent images and phrases have no place in our politics and I will no longer do it."

Not holding my breath, mind you.

17 Stanghazi  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:26:46pm

re: #5 Lidane

I love how these imbeciles think that just deleting something off a website or Twitter or Facebook makes it go away forever.

The delete attempt says it all.

She's running scared, and it couldn't have happened to a better demagogue.

I hate that this happened today, just fucking hate it.

18 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:27:39pm

Looks like the gunman got one of his own...

John McCarthy Roll

"Roll was nominated by President George H.W. Bush on September 23, 1991 to a seat on the United States District Court for the District of Arizona that had been vacated by Alfred C. Marquez. He was confirmed by the United States Senate on November 22, 1991, and received his commission on November 25, 1991. He served as chief judge from 2006 until his death in 2011.[1]"

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

19 bratwurst  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:27:39pm

re: #11 Renaissance_Man

Six comments - I think you win.

I was pretty confident we could get it done in single digits...windy's "all pols" would have iced it down as well.

20 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:27:50pm

So few politicians /people seem to realize once you put something on the internet, ITS THERE FOREVER!

21 Stanghazi  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:28:20pm

re: #2 bratwurst

Prediction on how long it takes until a comment to the effect of "left AND right wing extremists are BOTH bad" arrives in this thread?

re: #8 tradewind

Deleting old thoughts that turn out to be not such great ones is nothing new.
All pols... and others, like actors... do it.

bratwurst, you knew it would be a quickie.

22 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:28:26pm

re: #17 Stanley Sea

The delete attempt says it all.

She's running scared, and it couldn't have happened to a better demagogue.

I hate that this happened today, just fucking hate it.

Balls need to hit the ground to bounce.

There was no way the kind of rhetoric the right has been pushing would not lead to violence. This in inevitable, and it is far from over.

This won't be the last major assassination this year, I would bet money on it.

23 tradewind  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:28:40pm

re: #12 wrenchwench
She'll be able to surcome it.

24 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:28:55pm

re: #6 ag in houston

They are both bad.

Charles has been prediciting this craziness for some time. I had no doubt that it would come.

It will happen again until this extremism stops on all sides.

On top of the craziness, she is Jewish.

This is not lost on me or many others.

You're drifting terribly close to MBF territory with some of the material in this post if you ask me, just FYI....

25 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:29:46pm

re: #24 jamesfirecat

You're drifting terribly close to MBF territory with some of the material in this post if you ask me, just FYI...

Jamesfirecat... World Thread Police.

26 Ramona  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:29:58pm

But once you take it out of the "tubes" . . . .?re: #5 Lidane

27 tradewind  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:30:15pm

re: #22 Fozzie Bear
The right????
I know it's painful for you that this guy wasn't say, a Tea Party leader, but it's not the right that shot up this group.
It was a nutcase who was offended when he was given a bible by a recruiter, who from his ramblings was much more comfortable with the far left.

28 McSpiff  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:30:53pm

re: #27 tradewind

Are we reading the same ramblings?

29 HAL2010  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:31:03pm

re: #18 Walter L. Newton

Looks like the gunman got one of his own...

John McCarthy Roll

"Roll was nominated by President George H.W. Bush on September 23, 1991 to a seat on the United States District Court for the District of Arizona that had been vacated by Alfred C. Marquez. He was confirmed by the United States Senate on November 22, 1991, and received his commission on November 25, 1991. He served as chief judge from 2006 until his death in 2011.[1]"

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

One of his own? ...
Tad tasteless to say the least.

30 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:31:28pm

re: #27 tradewind

The right???
I know it's painful for you that this guy wasn't say, a Tea Party leader, but it's not the right that shot up this group.
It was a nutcase who was offended when he was given a bible by a recruiter, who from his ramblings was much more comfortable with the far left.

Yep, so many lefties I know rant on and on about how only gold is legal currency, and the federal government is illegitimate. /

31 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:32:07pm

re: #25 Walter L. Newton

Jamesfirecat... World Thread Police.

I'd worry about who watches the watchmen, but luckily I'll always have you looking over my shoulder to let me know when I set a toe out of line.

32 Ramona  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:32:07pm

re: #23 tradewind

"surcome it." love the phrase.

33 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:32:18pm

re: #29 HAL2010

One of his own? ...
Tad tasteless to say the least.

What's the matter... something wrong with my information?

34 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:33:07pm

See the correction above - that tweet was not deleted, contrary to the reports on several websites.

However, TakeBackthe20.com has definitely been deleting the gunsight maps.

35 Stanghazi  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:33:08pm

WestWingReport

President Obama in the Situation Room discussing the Arizona shootings. (White House Photo/Pete Souza) [Link: bit.ly...]

36 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:33:10pm

OT... the shaded post numbers look very cool.

37 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:34:35pm

re: #31 jamesfirecat

I'd worry about who watches the watchmen, but luckily I'll always have you looking over my shoulder to let me know when I set a toe out of line.

James... I basically like you... I rarely agree with you... and I suspect you rarely agree with me... but you're like a little kitten... I just have to love you... until you shit in a shoe :)

38 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:34:57pm

Has anybody mentioned that she (Giffords) is as cute as a bug in a rug? How demented do you have to be to shoot at someone that darlin'?

39 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:35:19pm

re: #36 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

OT... the shaded post numbers look very cool.

What shaded post numbers... check your eye glasses.

40 Randall Gross  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:36:29pm

Roll received deathreats from wingnuts over one of his rulings

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

41 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:37:04pm

re: #36 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

OT... the shaded post numbers look very cool.

Is that new?

42 bucephalas  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:37:12pm

Another nut with a gun permit. It just goes to show that it takes very little encouragement to get a marginal personality to go over the line. My prayers go out to the victims and my hope is that the babbling heads who push the rhetoric of violent conflict realize the consequences of their actions...

43 Obdicut  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:37:34pm

re: #38 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

He also shot, and killed, a nine year old girl.

44 tradewind  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:37:50pm

re: #38 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
As demented as he is.
Congresswoman told Bill Hemmer yesterday in an interview that illegal immigration is one of the greatest threats to the nation today. Very good thing that this doesn't appear related to that.

45 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:38:00pm

"Whoever did this; whatever their reason, they are a disgrace to Arizona, this country and the human race, and they deserve and will receive the contempt of all decent people and the strongest punishment of the law."
-John McCain

46 Stanghazi  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:38:24pm
5.35 pm. From the in-tray:

Your knee-jerk reaction to attach that madman to the tea party is disgusting. You are vile Sullivan, absolutely vile! May God damn you with a bullet of your own.

After today, it's harder to ignore threats of violence from the far right, isn't it? That a reader responded to this live-blog by hoping that I be shot is a sign of where we've come. Especially since the writer is also simply wrong. My first take was "Not exactly a Tea Party purist." But the currency stuff is weirdly out there.

From the Daily Dish.

47 bucephalas  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:38:31pm

re: #45 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Amen...

48 tradewind  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:38:54pm

re: #42 bucephalas
Seriously??
Do you really think that he would have restrained himself had he NOT had a permit?
Yeah.
Guns illegal to carry in our nation's capital.
Extreme rate of gun violence there, none of it legal.

49 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:39:13pm

re: #43 Obdicut

Yeah, I know. But I see a picture of the Congresswoman. I am running with the assumption that the Congresswoman was the primary target, tho.

50 Stanghazi  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:40:09pm

re: #49 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Yeah, I know. But I see a picture of the Congresswoman. I am running with the assumption that the Congresswoman was the primary target, tho.

I read he walked up and shot her in the back of her head. If that's correct, she was fucking targeted. Oh so sad.

51 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:40:31pm

re: #42 bucephalas

Another nut with a gun permit. It just goes to show that it takes very little encouragement to get a marginal personality to go over the line. My prayers go out to the victims and my hope is that the babbling heads who push the rhetoric of violent conflict realize the consequences of their actions...

Have you been reading any of the possible material and videos attributed to him? This was not a "marginal personality." He was already over the line. Having a gun permit has nothing to do with whether or not he would have used a gun to do what he did. He would have had a gun, permit or not.

52 Kronocide  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:40:33pm

re: #44 tradewind


Congresswoman told Bill Hemmer yesterday in an interview that illegal immigration is one of the greatest threats to the nation today.

I just watched that interview and she never said that.

53 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:40:44pm

I have to go back to work.

Later.

54 tradewind  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:40:52pm

Federal ( and non) judges are more frequent targets of gun violence than are members of Congress.
I'd tighten security around the courts asap.

55 Lidane  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:40:54pm

re: #10 lawhawk

It could be a form of buyers remorse... She bought into/espoused the ideology - now she owns it and all that comes from it.

It's still hers, though. She posted it, she should live with any and all blowback that comes her way for it.

I don't think she told anyone to shoot members of Congress, but she parroted that violent rhetoric, and should deal with the fallout from it.

56 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:41:28pm

re: #48 tradewind

Seriously??
Do you really think that he would have restrained himself had he NOT had a permit?
Yeah.
Guns illegal to carry in our nation's capital.
Extreme rate of gun violence there, none of it legal.

I think they have illegal gun permits in DC, that's why there is so much gun violence there.

57 FQ Kafir  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:41:54pm

A Twitter feed allegedly from one of the a**hole's acquaintances:

http://twitter.com/caitieparker



1. This is a circus. Good Morning America just called me. less than 5 seconds ago via Twitter for iPhone
2. @antderosa it's loughner just checked my year book. less than 20 seconds ago via Twitter for iPhone in reply to antderosa
3. @lakarune I haven't seen him since '07. Then, he was left wing. 25 minutes ago via Twitter for iPhone in reply to lakarune
4. @noboa more left. I haven't seen him since '07 though. He became very reclusive. 27 minutes ago via Twitter for iPhone in reply to noboa
5. @antderosa he had a lot of friends until he got alcohol poisoning in '06, & dropped out of school. Mainly loner very philosophical. 29 minutes ago via Twitter for iPhone in reply to antderosa
6. @antderosa As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy. 33 minutes ago via Twitter for iPhone in reply to antderosa
7. @antderosa he was a pot head & into rock like Hendrix,The Doors, Anti-Flag. I haven't seen him in person since '07 in a sign language class 35 minutes ago via Twitter for iPhone in reply to antderosa
8. @antderosa He was a political radical & met Giffords once before in '07, asked her a question & he told me she was "stupid & unintelligent" 37 minutes ago via Twitter for iPhone in reply to antderosa
9. @antderosa I can. That is him. 39 minutes ago via Twitter for iPhone in reply to antderosa
10. @antderosa I went to high school, college, & was in a band with the gunman. This tragedy has just turned to horrific. 43 minutes ago via Twitter for iPhone in reply to antderosa
11. Official I went to high school & college, & was in a band w/ the gunman. I can't even fathom this right now. about 1 hour ago via Twitter for iPhone
12. Saying Jared Laughner was the gunman. Really hoping that's not the same guy I went to HS with, really good friend. Freaking out right now!!!
58 bucephalas  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:42:03pm

re: #48 tradewind

You miss my meaning. I'm saying its irrelevant whether he had a permit or not. The lunatic fringe is always looking for a reason to explode. Just look at the Maryland nut who's offended the government is trying to prevent terrorist attacks...

59 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:43:38pm

re: #58 bucephalas

You miss my meaning. I'm saying its irrelevant whether he had a permit or not. The lunatic fringe is always looking for a reason to explode. Just look at the Maryland nut who's offended the government is trying to prevent terrorist attacks...

Then you didn't make yourself very clear, since more than one of us mistook what you were trying to say. So... were you also not trying to say that he was a "marginal personality?"

You're confusing me.

60 Lidane  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:43:38pm

re: #57 FQ Kafir

Because we all know that everything on Twitter is real.

61 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:44:16pm

re: #60 Lidane

Because we all know that everything on Twitter is real.

Well... this thread is about tweets? What do you mean?

62 FQ Kafir  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:44:53pm

re: #60 Lidane

We'll know soon enough... her last tweet said GMA called her.

63 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:44:58pm

re: #30 Fozzie Bear

re: #27 tradewind

The Paulian/Alex Jones right often finds common ground with the extreme left, especially at a personal level where such things as drug laws and attitudes toward authority come into play. The defining characteristic of Paulian-Jones conspiracism, however, is the emphasis on monetary policy and private property rights, both of which are solidly right wing positions.

64 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:46:57pm

re: #57 FQ Kafir

A Twitter feed allegedly from one of the a**hole's acquaintances:

twitter.com...]>

The two main points that I wish people to throw into the ring

1: What is considered "liberal" in Arizona may not exactly be the most accurate description of the term when applied to main stream politics.

2: If this guy was just anti-establishment at heart (as that seem to be the one consistent thread we've seen so far) of course he would have tilted "liberal" in 2007 because Bush was expanding the government and not being conservative enough....

65 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:47:04pm

re: #63 Shiplord Kirel

re: #27 tradewind

The Paulian/Alex Jones right often finds common ground with the extreme left, especially at a personal level where such things as drug laws and attitudes toward authority come into play. The defining characteristic of Paulian-Jones conspiracism, however, is the emphasis on monetary policy and private property rights, both of which are solidly right wing positions.

I thought private property rights was a Constitutional issue? The Constitution is solidly right wing? Well... maybe it is... the GOP insisted for it to be read the other day. Never mind.

66 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:47:18pm

re: #18 Walter L. Newton

Looks like the gunman got one of his own...

John McCarthy Roll

"Roll was nominated by President George H.W. Bush on September 23, 1991 to a seat on the United States District Court for the District of Arizona that had been vacated by Alfred C. Marquez. He was confirmed by the United States Senate on November 22, 1991, and received his commission on November 25, 1991. He served as chief judge from 2006 until his death in 2011.[1]"

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Excuse me? In what possible way was Judge Roll 'one of the gunman's own'?

67 charlz  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:47:58pm

re: #58 bucephalas

Just look at the Maryland nut who's offended the government is trying to prevent terrorist attacks...

The signs actually say "report suspicious" behavior or activity (it's been awhile since I've driven in MD). I've never been sure what is intended but they sure do look like expensive signs.

68 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:48:00pm

re: #57 FQ Kafir

That also showed up on the previous thread. He was a good friend that she hadn't heard from in four years, and she had to check her yearbook for the spelling of his name.

69 Lidane  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:48:26pm

re: #63 Shiplord Kirel

The Paulian/Alex Jones right often finds common ground with the extreme left, especially at a personal level where such things as drug laws and attitudes toward authority come into play. The defining characteristic of Paulian-Jones conspiracism, however, is the emphasis on monetary policy and private property rights, both of which are solidly right wing positions.

YES. THIS.

I don't care how liberal someone might be socially, if they get all ranty about property rights, gold and silver, and monetary policy, they're libertarians, most likely anarcho-capitalists/Austrian school wannabes, and they revere Alex Jones and Ron Paul.

There are plenty of those people here in Austin. I know the type, because I'm surrounded by them.

70 McSpiff  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:49:03pm

re: #64 jamesfirecat

The two main points that I wish people to throw into the ring

1: What is considered "liberal" in Arizona may not exactly be the most accurate description of the term when applied to main stream politics.

2: If this guy was just anti-establishment at heart (as that seem to be the one consistent thread we've seen so far) of course he would have tilted "liberal" in 2007 because Bush was expanding the government and not being conservative enough...

Its easy to forget that Alex Jones had as much insane shit about Bush as he does Obama. Some of these "teh federal gubermint is teh evil!" really mean it, regardless of party.

71 tradewind  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:49:22pm

re: #58 bucephalas
I did miss it, if that's it, since I thought you were objecting to legal carry permits and blaming them for gun violence.
While speculation is that whoever is sending the thermal devices is anti-whatever ( see something/say something)....I didn't realize there was any actual proof that that was the motive.

72 Gus  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:49:40pm

There are many questions. This was not only an assassination attempt (if that was the case) since it also involved a near random shooting of those at this event. Assassins typically shoot one individual leaving those in the surrounding area alone.

73 tradewind  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:50:09pm

re: #65 Walter L. Newton
Hey, I didn't say that!
I know, you lumped it in. But just sayin....

74 lawhawk  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:50:58pm

President Obama on the shooting:

Youtube Video
75 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:51:04pm

re: #45 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

"Whoever did this; whatever their reason, they are a disgrace to Arizona, this country and the human race, and they deserve and will receive the contempt of all decent people and the strongest punishment of the law."
-John McCain

That sounds less polished and more upset than most of these formal statements. Wonder if he wrote it himself.

76 researchok  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:51:14pm

re: #64 jamesfirecat

The two main points that I wish people to throw into the ring

1: What is considered "liberal" in Arizona may not exactly be the most accurate description of the term when applied to main stream politics.

2: If this guy was just anti-establishment at heart (as that seem to be the one consistent thread we've seen so far) of course he would have tilted "liberal" in 2007 because Bush was expanding the government and not being conservative enough...

As far as I am concerned, his 'politics' were only there to feed his insanity- a costume, if you will.

I could care less if he claimed left or right affiliations. His politics have little to do with his insanity.

77 tradewind  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:51:26pm

re: #69 Lidane
Two words from the twitter thingy:
Pothead
Alcohol poisoning.
Okay, thats three.
Probably has a lot to do with the nutjob's descent into looneytunes.

78 Gus  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:51:40pm

This is the judge he killed:

John McCarthy Roll

Roll was nominated by President George H.W. Bush on September 23, 1991 to a seat on the United States District Court for the District of Arizona that had been vacated by Alfred C. Marquez. He was confirmed by the United States Senate on November 22, 1991, and received his commission on November 25, 1991. He served as chief judge from 2006 until his death in 2011.

79 researchok  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:51:53pm

re: #72 Gus 802

There are many questions. This was not only an assassination attempt (if that was the case) since it also involved a near random shooting of those at this event. Assassins typically shoot one individual leaving those in the surrounding area alone.

Great observation.

80 tradewind  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:52:06pm

re: #77 tradewind
PIMF, ' that's '.

81 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:52:24pm

re: #69 Lidane

YES. THIS.

I don't care how liberal someone might be socially, if they get all ranty about property rights, gold and silver, and monetary policy, they're libertarians, most likely anarcho-capitalists/Austrian school wannabes, and they revere Alex Jones and Ron Paul.

There are plenty of those people here in Austin. I know the type, because I'm surrounded by them.

exactly

maybe some other people here don't have exposure to these types? They're obvious as hell to me, they're all over the place here in oregon.

it was literally not six months after I moved to Oregon, than a work acquaintance here started letting loose about that urban myth that you don't have to pay income tax.

82 tradewind  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:52:59pm

re: #79 researchok
Not an opinion, since I don't know, but I wonder if he had in his head the idea that he'd be committing suicide- by -cop and going out in a blaze?

83 Gus  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:53:13pm

re: #79 researchok

Great observation.

Thanks. I thought it would be obvious. We're looking at multiple motivations here and as is always the case with human beings, multiple "causes".

84 Lidane  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:53:18pm

re: #77 tradewind

Two words from the twitter thingy:
Pothead
Alcohol poisoning.
Okay, thats three.
Probably has a lot to do with the nutjob's descent into looneytunes.

Only if you're stupid enough to believe that smoking weed and getting drunk leads a person to shoot a member of Congress, a federal judge, a child, and other bystanders.

85 McSpiff  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:53:27pm

re: #76 researchok

As far as I am concerned, his 'politics' were only there to feed his insanity- a costume, if you will.

I could care less if he claimed left or right affiliations. His politics have little to do with his insanity.

Instead of playing political hot potato with this guy, I'd like to hear everyone say "My politics doesn't include violence". And act accordingly. Regardless of affiliation, having him and his methods universally rejected would be the ultimate justice IMO.

86 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:53:47pm

re: #70 McSpiff

Its easy to forget that Alex Jones had as much insane shit about Bush as he does Obama. Some of these "teh federal gubermint is teh evil!" really mean it, regardless of party.

Jones has learned what Limbaugh learned, it's way easier to freak out about whoever's in power than to have to defend whoever's in power

87 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:54:11pm

re: #77 tradewind

Two words from the twitter thingy:
Pothead
Alcohol poisoning.
Okay, thats three.
Probably has a lot to do with the nutjob's descent into looneytunes.

pot makes you shoot people, huh?

88 CuriousLurker  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:54:36pm

re: #87 WindUpBird

pot makes you shoot people, huh?

Reefer Madness!

89 FQ Kafir  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:54:50pm

Why does this murderer have to be a left-wing wacko or a right-wing wacko? Can't the guy just be a wacko?

90 researchok  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:54:56pm

re: #85 McSpiff

Instead of playing political hot potato with this guy, I'd like to hear everyone say "My politics doesn't include violence". And act accordingly. Regardless of affiliation, having him and his methods universally rejected would be the ultimate justice IMO.

Hear, hear.

My fear is that there are too many people who only want to exploit this deed. They could care less about anything else.

91 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:55:01pm

re: #84 Lidane

so like, look out I'm gonna get stoned and then DESCEND INTO CRAZYTOWN

EVERYONE PANIC I'M ALL GONE HIGGLEDY-PIGGLEDY ON THE WACKY TOBACCY

92 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:55:28pm

re: #88 CuriousLurker

Reefer Madness!

One day, she's your sainted grandmother

the next moment she's hitting the bong and spraying the room with lead!

93 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:55:32pm

re: #89 FQ Kafir

Why does this murderer have to be a left-wing wacko or a right-wing wacko? Can't the guy just be a wacko?

Because that may not actually be the case.

If he had political motivations we'd be fools to ignore the fact.

94 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:55:48pm

re: #89 FQ Kafir

Why does this murderer have to be a left-wing wacko or a right-wing wacko? Can't the guy just be a wacko?

No.

95 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:55:58pm

re: #65 Walter L. Newton

I thought private property rights was a Constitutional issue? The Constitution is solidly right wing? Well... maybe it is... the GOP insisted for it to be read the other day. Never mind.

Yeah, property rights and monetary policy both are constitutional issues but the Paulian version of their present state is not a defining concern of the left or a staple of their rhetoric.

96 charlz  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:56:05pm

re: #91 WindUpBird

I'M ALL GONE HIGGLEDY-PIGGLEDY ON THE WACKY TOBACCY

make sure you listen to some Hendrix while you're at it.

97 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:56:07pm

re: #89 FQ Kafir

Why does this murderer have to be a left-wing wacko or a right-wing wacko? Can't the guy just be a wacko?

I'mm more concerned about the political climate that is empowering wackos.


This being a blog about such things, I'm going to discuss such things

IF YOU DON'T MIND

98 FQ Kafir  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:56:16pm

re: #76 researchok

+100

99 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:56:32pm

re: #76 researchok

As far as I am concerned, his 'politics' were only there to feed his insanity- a costume, if you will.

I could care less if he claimed left or right affiliations. His politics have little to do with his insanity.

It IS relevant, however, that high profile political figures have been invoking the rhetoric of political violence as a campaign tool. Saying your opponent is essentially a terrorist, as Palin did, has consequences. Encouraging people to use their "second amendment remedies" with a wink and a nod has consequences.

The consequences are dead people with holes in them. That fact could not be more clear.

100 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:56:33pm

re: #89 FQ Kafir

Why does this murderer have to be a left-wing wacko or a right-wing wacko? Can't the guy just be a wacko?

He could, but he's posted evidence to the contrary on the internet.

101 Ojoe  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:56:54pm

Words find their actors.

This lesson could have been learned in 1170 with the murder of Thomas Becket.

102 CarleeCork  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:57:03pm

re: #87 WindUpBird

pot makes you shoot people, huh?


Not according to Robin Williams.

103 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:57:23pm

re: #96 charlz

make sure you listen to some Hendrix while you're at it.

There's more to stoner tunes than hendrix ;-)

Youtube Video
104 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:57:25pm

re: #50 Stanley Sea

Hi again SS! could you e-mail ice? She's not sure if she has your current email addy right now.

105 Gus  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:57:49pm

Vance Vs. Judas Priest?

Marylin Manson and Columbine?

106 Lidane  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:58:01pm

re: #89 FQ Kafir

Why does this murderer have to be a left-wing wacko or a right-wing wacko? Can't the guy just be a wacko?

Because he shot a member of Congress and a federal judge at a political event. That's why.

Like it or not, his politics matter just as much as the anger that led him to pull the trigger, just because of what he did.

107 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:58:35pm

re: #102 CarleeCork

Not according to Robin Williams.

Jamaica would never make an atomic bomb, they might make an atomic bong... but when an atomic bomb goes off there is devistation and radiation, and when an atomic bong goes off there is only celebration!

108 researchok  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:58:54pm

re: #83 Gus 802

Thanks. I thought it would be obvious. We're looking at multiple motivations here and as is always the case with human beings, multiple "causes".

Agreed.

And we're looking at all kinds of crazy.

He's only 22 years old and his life is over.

In addition to feeling for his victims first and foremost, I also feel for his parents, grandparents, family and friends.

Lot's of tragedy to go around.

109 Stanghazi  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:58:55pm

re: #104 Jimmah

Hi again SS! could you e-mail ice? She's not sure if she has your current email addy right now.

done!

110 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:59:13pm

re: #105 Gus 802

Vance Vs. Judas Priest?

Marylin Manson and Columbine?

hmm, interesting point

111 researchok  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:59:38pm

re: #99 Fozzie Bear

It IS relevant, however, that high profile political figures have been invoking the rhetoric of political violence as a campaign tool. Saying your opponent is essentially a terrorist, as Palin did, has consequences. Encouraging people to use their "second amendment remedies" with a wink and a nod has consequences.

The consequences are dead people with holes in them. That fact could not be more clear.

Will you feel the same if his politics were different?

112 FQ Kafir  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 2:59:50pm

We're gonna hear a lot more about this guy in the coming days. This truly is a sad day for America.

113 Lidane  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:00:21pm

re: #95 Shiplord Kirel

Yeah, property rights and monetary policy both are constitutional issues but the Paulian version of their present state is not a defining concern of the left or a staple of their rhetoric.

Exactly. You're not going to find a liberal or lefty ranting about returning to the gold standard, or fiat currency, or most monetary policy. That's firmly a Paulian/right-wing libertarian thing.

114 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:00:31pm

re: #111 researchok

Will you feel the same if his politics were different?

No I wouldn't... if there were crazy liberals/democrats out there shooting them then those responsible for spurring them on should be ejected from the party at the very least.

We should not hide our head in the sand or let accusations of partisanship blind us to the truth...

115 b_Snark  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:00:35pm

Look people, we all know that if a lefty kills a pile of people then all people of the left are evil by default, and if a righty kills a pile of people then all people of the righty persuasion are evil by default, so it is important for us to determine, as quickly as possible whether this gun toting nut bar is right or left so that we know which group to demonize.

Once we've successfully dehumanized one group or the other, or maybe even both, then we can proceed to dehumanize them with a clear conscience.

116 CarleeCork  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:00:39pm

re: #107 jamesfirecat
I loved his take on golf.

117 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:01:05pm

re: #111 researchok

Will you feel the same if his politics were different?

You really think he'll be discovered to be PRO-federal government? ;-)

118 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:01:20pm

re: #13 Fozzie Bear

That cat is so far out of the bag now there's no way for her ever to make that go away.

She called for political violence, and political violence ensued.

We don't know who did this yet. Given its Arizona, it could be the cartels for all we know. Let's not point fingers yet.

119 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:01:45pm

re: #115 b_sharp

Look people, we all know that if a lefty kills a pile of people then all people of the left are evil by default, and if a righty kills a pile of people then all people of the righty persuasion are evil by default, so it is important for us to determine, as quickly as possible whether this gun toting nut bar is right or left so that we know which group to demonize.

Once we've successfully dehumanized one group or the other, or maybe even both, then we can proceed to dehumanize them with a clear conscience.

I just want people in congress to stop using creepy violent firearm dogwhistles to fire up their base is all

120 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:01:57pm

re: #116 CarleeCork

I loved his take on golf.


You'll spend all day in the grass waking away with a tire iron till yah have a storke! A stroke! That's what we'll call it! Because every time you miss you feel like you're gonna f***ing die!

121 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:02:04pm

re: #118 Dark_Falcon

We don't know who did this yet. Given its Arizona, it could be the cartels for all we know. Let's not point fingers yet.

could be swamp gas

122 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:02:07pm

re: #104 Jimmah

Hi again SS! could you e-mail ice? She's not sure if she has your current email addy right now.

Hey, Jimmah. How goes it?

123 Varek Raith  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:02:12pm

His motivations for this are important.
Just like the motivations behind, oh, an Islamic terrorists.

124 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:02:52pm

re: #113 Lidane

Exactly. You're not going to find a liberal or lefty ranting about returning to the gold standard, or fiat currency, or most monetary policy. That's firmly a Paulian/right-wing libertarian thing.

the closest you get are lefties who like that Ron paul is anti-war

then you start showing them the rest of it and they go uhhhhhh

125 recusancy  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:02:53pm

re: #123 Varek Raith

His motivations for this are important.
Just like the motivations behind, oh, an Islamic terrorists.

They hate us for our freedom!

126 William of Orange  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:03:08pm

Guess what, I've already seen tweets accusing Loughner of being a lefty. I won't bother you with posting the link but this is the text.

Shooter Jared Lee Loughner is left leaning anti religion/God loon, not @SarahPalin or @glennbeck demographic. Mental illness knows no party.

The logic completely escapes me....

127 bratwurst  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:03:11pm

re: #119 WindUpBird

I just want people in congress to stop using creepy violent firearm dogwhistles to fire up their base is all

If this awful incident doesn't lead to that, I shudder to think what it would take.

128 Stanghazi  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:03:25pm

Can someone please tell me what the fuck this is?

5.44 pm. The last image Loughner attached to his alleged MySpace page on Christmas Eve (under the headline "My countdown: No one read this! Jizz stain"):

[Link: andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com...]

May need to read down the post to see the image.

129 Gus  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:03:34pm

re: #108 researchok

Agreed.

And we're looking at all kinds of crazy.

He's only 22 years old and his life is over.

In addition to feeling for his victims first and foremost, I also feel for his parents, grandparents, family and friends.

Lot's of tragedy to go around.

These are crazy times in general. Even though there has been a decline in murders there seems to be mass shootings every week. Some with seemingly no motivation. Other times for being fired or people "hearing voices".

130 freetoken  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:03:38pm

FWIW, just yesterday Esther was sharpening her rhetoric:

Sarah Palin’s Harsh Words For McCain; Says Obama’s “Hell Bent On Weakening America”


First up was McCain. Ingraham asked Palin what she thought about the Senator’s comments on Today about compromising on immigration reform, Palin responded that she didn’t “think the priority of the Republican Party should be capitulating or compromising when it comes to our principles and those time tested truths that help build our country.” She then said that Republicans need to “draw a line in the sand” and that it was the “last chance” for GOP members who’ve “blown it too many times” implementing the public’s core values and ideas. Ingraham made sure to remind Palin that McCain was the guy who “picked her for the ticket” that was now talking about compromise and Palin softened a (small) bit, saying she would give him the benefit of the doubt.

Next came Obama. Palin was not at all happy about Obama raising the debt as you can see in this transcription from the official YouTube Channel of The Laura Ingraham Show:


Palin: “We’ve got to be able to respect our politicians and trust what it is they are doing. Now, I don’t personally trust what comes out of the White House….[Obama] is hell bent on weakening America and he has told us back in March of 2006 that it weakens America domestically and internationally to raise the debt ceiling. And he said it is a sign of failed leadership to support raising the debt ceiling. And now he is doing exactly that. So, what Obama is doing–purposefully weakening America, because he understood that debt weakens America domestically and internationally–and yet now he supports increasing debt.”
Laura: “So his goal is to weaken America?”
Palin: “On this issue it has to be, otherwise, what did he mean back in March of 2006 when he said that he understood that increasing debt weakens America?”
131 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:03:43pm

re: #127 bratwurst

If this awful incident doesn't lead to that, I shudder to think what it would take.

we're already seeing the pushback on twitter, I honestly don't think things will change much

132 researchok  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:04:04pm

re: #114 jamesfirecat

No I wouldn't... if there were crazy liberals/democrats out there shooting them then those responsible for spurring them on should be ejected from the party at the very least.

We should not hide our head in the sand or let accusations of partisanship blind us to the truth...

That is my point. I don't care what his politics are.

I do agree with you that over the top rhetoric is a big problem that has ro be dealt with. That said, I do believe this guy was crazy long before he picked the red or blue path he took.

133 Stanghazi  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:04:10pm

re: #118 Dark_Falcon

We don't know who did this yet. Given its Arizona, it could be the cartels for all we know. Let's not point fingers yet.

Cartels? wtf?

134 Gus  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:04:10pm

re: #123 Varek Raith

His motivations for this are important.
Just like the motivations behind, oh, an Islamic terrorists.

We should waterboard him!

//

135 Ojoe  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:04:12pm

re: #127 bratwurst

The country needs a big dose of the magical balance fairy IMHO.

136 charlz  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:04:15pm

re: #103 WindUpBird

There's more to stoner tunes than hendrix ;-)

I'm very well aware of that. 8-)

One of the tweets quoted earlier said this perp listened to Hendrix and The Doors.

137 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:04:38pm

re: #109 Stanley Sea

done!

cheers! She'll get back to you either tonight or tomorrow :)

138 Varek Raith  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:05:04pm

re: #125 recusancy

They hate us for our freedom!

They'll never have me freedom fries!
FREEEEDDDDOOOMMMM!

139 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:05:10pm

re: #135 Ojoe

The country needs a big dose of the magical balance fairy IMHO.

No it doesn't.

The country doesn't need false equivilencies, the country needs the truth and critical thinking.

140 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:05:19pm

re: #133 Stanley Sea

Cartels? wtf?

Saucer men


definitely controlled by the saucer men

141 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:05:20pm

re: #121 WindUpBird

could be swamp gas

I'm not trying to minimize this, WUB. But I don't think that the political lessons from this will be clear till we know the "who" and the "why" to this murder rampage.

142 Lidane  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:05:33pm

re: #124 WindUpBird

the closest you get are lefties who like that Ron paul is anti-war

then you start showing them the rest of it and they go uhhh

Pretty much.

I had a few liberal acquaintances here in Austin who were all Ron Paul fans in 2008 because he was anti-war. They were so disappointed to find out he was a lunatic, just like Alex Jones.

143 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:05:37pm

The twisted "philosophy" he spouts in his videos is straight out of the extreme right wing libertarian handbook. Anti-government, obsessed with currency and the gold standard, etc.

He's out on the fringe where the right and left meet, but his ideology is straight from Ron Paul. You can find similar rants at any extreme libertarian website.

144 recusancy  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:05:40pm

re: #128 Stanley Sea

Can someone please tell me what the fuck this is?

[Link: andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com...]

May need to read down the post to see the image.

Magazine.

145 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:06:08pm

Giffords is just forty.re: #111 researchok

Will you feel the same if his politics were different?

Let's get realistic. Assuming that Giffords was the intended target, what would motivate a left-winger nut to assassinate her?

Some kind of Helter-Skelter, kick-start the revolution thing?

Burning hatred that she signed onto the healthcare bill and didn't insist on single-payer?

If that turns out to be the case, clearly, his political motivations would also be relevent. And if he shot Giffords because Michael Moore told him to, that's entirely relevent.

But in the past couple of years, the right-wing radicals have been turning the crazy up to eleven. Simple fact. And I have a bad feeling that contributed to this sick puppy going over the edge.

146 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:06:12pm

re: #135 Ojoe

The country needs a big dose of the magical balance fairy IMHO.

yeah, sorta like how we had the magical balance fairy during Jim Crow


That was magical!

147 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:06:16pm

re: #111 researchok

Will you feel the same if his politics were different?

I think it is crystal clear that there is a dog whistle being blown loudly that encourages the kind of thing that happened today. Anybody who blows that whistle deserves to own the mess that results from it. Anybody.

The thing is, no elected figure or candidate on the left is blowing that whistle. This is a peculiar feature of the right today.

A liberal politician that started saying things like "second amendment remedies", "don't retreat, reload", and "stay armed and dangerous" just couldn't win an election. Not in a million years.

There is no balance here. People are encouraging political violence in american politics, and it has the effect of ratcheting up the danger of violence occurring, on either side. I could see a left wing nutjob doing something similar as a response to that exact same rhetoric, out of fear that the right is about to start shooting liberals. After all, thats the general thrust of such talk.

If you ask for political violence, you will get it from somewhere. There's hundreds of millions of people in this country. Talking about secession, civil war, and revolution, whoever you are, is juuuust this side of treason. Frankly i'm amazed nobody has been arrested yet for attempting to foment a revolution.

148 avanti  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:06:27pm

Hot Air update:

"Gunman may have had a left video manifesto" Really ??/

149 b_Snark  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:06:28pm

re: #103 WindUpBird

There's more to stoner tunes than hendrix ;-)


[Video]

Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, Janis Joplin, Jefferson Airplane, Uriah Heep, Suzi Quatro, Lighthouse, even Nazareth come to mind.

150 CuriousLurker  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:06:29pm

re: #133 Stanley Sea

Cartels? wtf?

Los Zetas? //

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

151 recusancy  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:06:43pm

re: #135 Ojoe

The country needs a big dose of the magical balance fairy IMHO.

You're right. Fucking Whigs are just as bad as the rest of em.

152 What, me worry?  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:06:53pm

re: #115 b_sharp

Look people, we all know that if a lefty kills a pile of people then all people of the left are evil by default, and if a righty kills a pile of people then all people of the righty persuasion are evil by default, so it is important for us to determine, as quickly as possible whether this gun toting nut bar is right or left so that we know which group to demonize.

Once we've successfully dehumanized one group or the other, or maybe even both, then we can proceed to dehumanize them with a clear conscience.

I don't think see it like that. When an awesome Democrat like Giffords gets shot like this, not doing some random, going about her business kinda thing, but at a political rally, it's safe to GUESS that it's politically motivated, even if we point to cases like John Hinckley which isn't usual. Moreso, when we have violent rhetoric coming out of one party and not the other. I'm not saying that there are no examples of rage and violence from the Left, but it holds no candle to that of the Right, and I would add, from people who are pretty far up in the pecking order, like Sarah Palin.

Even more when the Left supports gun control and the Right does not. That isn't demonization. It's the truth.

153 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:07:06pm

there were black confedarate soldiers!

magical balance!

154 Stanghazi  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:07:12pm

re: #135 Ojoe

The country needs a big dose of the magical balance fairy IMHO.

Tell that to the families affected. Just do it.

155 researchok  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:07:17pm

re: #129 Gus 802

These are crazy times in general. Even though there has been a decline in murders there seems to be mass shootings every week. Some with seemingly no motivation. Other times for being fired or people "hearing voices".

We are at a point where some people believe violence is a legitimate form of expression, either political, religious or social. We see that all over the world and we saw it on 9/11 up close and personal.

If we turn a blind eye or excuse or justify that behavior elsewhere, it becomes only a matter of time before we see that violence here.

156 William of Orange  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:08:05pm

One of the most telling reasons why Charles never lets anyone come close to his family. just a few days ago he posted a bulletin about that Neo nazi that tried to obtain his home address.


Posting addresses is such a big sign of weakness. I tells you you're losing the discussion and the only way out for you is to eliminate the opponent, no Mather what.


And preferably by someone else's hands.....

157 Ojoe  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:08:06pm

re: #151 recusancy

You think maybe you are a bit fired up here?

158 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:08:36pm

re: #133 Stanley Sea

Cartels? wtf?

I have not been watching TV. It's only just now that I even saw that a suspect was in custody, as I did not see that at first look at CNN.com. Forgive my error, but I do think that a 24 Hour Rule on motive is prudent.

Right now, I'm going to go to dinner and will be back later.

159 Ojoe  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:08:36pm

re: #154 Stanley Sea

A balanced person does not go around shooting.

160 recusancy  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:08:44pm

re: #157 Ojoe

You think maybe you are a bit fired up here?

Nope. Just stating a truism.

161 Stanghazi  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:08:53pm

re: #144 recusancy

Thank you.

162 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:09:12pm

re: #157 Ojoe

You think maybe you are a bit fired up here?

Don't fairies, like tables, need three legs to balance?

163 b_Snark  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:09:30pm

re: #119 WindUpBird

I just want people in congress to stop using creepy violent firearm dogwhistles to fire up their base is all

I couldn't agree more.

164 The Shadow Do  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:09:31pm

This son of a bitch has done real damage beyond the unfortunate victims of this attack. This is pure terrorism. Is there a public official that does not feel threatened today and going forward? This is a serious attack on our electoral process though that was probably not the intent of this bastard whose brain has been fully stewed in the Paulian broth.

It is awfully third world to think that serious security is necessary to do the mundane job of House Rep. But it obviously is, now.

165 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:09:39pm

re: #144 recusancy

Magazine.

It's a 33-round magazine for a Glock, to be exact.

BBL for real.

166 researchok  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:09:55pm

re: #147 Fozzie Bear

I think it is crystal clear that there is a dog whistle being blown loudly that encourages the kind of thing that happened today. Anybody who blows that whistle deserves to own the mess that results from it. Anybody.

The thing is, no elected figure or candidate on the left is blowing that whistle. This is a peculiar feature of the right today.

A liberal politician that started saying things like "second amendment remedies", "don't retreat, reload", and "stay armed and dangerous" just couldn't win an election. Not in a million years.

There is no balance here. People are encouraging political violence in american politics, and it has the effect of ratcheting up the danger of violence occurring, on either side. I could see a left wing nutjob doing something similar as a response to that exact same rhetoric, out of fear that the right is about to start shooting liberals. After all, thats the general thrust of such talk.

If you ask for political violence, you will get it from somewhere. There's hundreds of millions of people in this country. Talking about secession, civil war, and revolution, whoever you are, is juuust this side of treason. Frankly i'm amazed nobody has been arrested yet for attempting to foment a revolution.

You may be right- but what if his politics were different, as posited in comment 57?

167 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:09:56pm

NYT says the Tucson Tea Party has talked to their reporter. Condemning the shooting, not going into psycho damage control. Sounds like they're dealing with it correctly.

168 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:10:15pm

re: #149 b_sharp

Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, Janis Joplin, Jefferson Airplane, Uriah Heep, Suzi Quatro, Lighthouse, even Nazareth come to mind.

I like those!

I also like Clutch, Kyuss, The Sword, High on Fire, Melvins, Sleep, Black Pyramid, Electric Wizard, Sons of Otis, Nebula, Hawkwind, Mastodon, Baroness, Atomic Bitchwax, Cathedral, Tiamat, Earth, Spiritual Beggars, Dozer...

169 KayInMaine  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:10:37pm

Michele Bachmann wants to be America's next president? Really? After telling her loonies that they need to be armed and dangerous? YOU CAN'T DELETE THAT STATEMENT YOU VIOLENT VILE PIECE OF WORTHLESS CELLS!

170 steve  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:10:45pm

I do not care if this guy is a lefty/righty nutjob. The point is he is a nutjob period.


Nice add on your blog Charles:
[Link: www.barska.com...]

I am looking for a good scope.

171 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:11:19pm

re: #145 SanFranciscoZionist

Giffords was definitely a target, she was shot at point blank range.

172 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:11:28pm

re: #149 b_sharp

Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, Janis Joplin, Jefferson Airplane, Uriah Heep, Suzi Quatro, Lighthouse, even Nazareth come to mind.

I think i've deduced that were it not for Sabbath, Floyd, and the Melvins, about three quarters of my music collection would not exist

173 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:11:38pm

re: #166 researchok

You may be right- but what if his politics were different, as posited in comment 57?

Then I would STILL blame people who encourage political violence, on any side.

Right now, it's the Palins, Bachmanns, and Angles doing it. They need to be made to wear this, eat this, and generally be stained forever with it. They fucking own this now, because they literally asked for it.

174 Varek Raith  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:11:56pm

Words have consequences.
You can't use extreme anti-government rhetoric and not have someone take them up on their offer of "second amendment remedies" or "don't retreat, reload"
Words have consequences.

175 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:12:04pm

re: #122 Dark_Falcon

Hey, Jimmah. How goes it?

Hi DF! We've had a nice (but busy) holiday here in Royston McVasey. Going to be busy for a while actually, but hopefully still able to log in here from time to time to do that evil that we do;-)

I have to be off now so I'll leave you with our current favourite song from the one and only Proclaimers - "Love can move mountains":

Youtube Video

PS Ice say's Hi too :)

176 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:12:16pm

re: #166 researchok

You may be right- but what if his politics were different, as posited in comment 57?

What if they were? I don't understand the question, I think.

177 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:12:26pm

re: #147 Fozzie Bear

I think it is crystal clear that there is a dog whistle being blown loudly that encourages the kind of thing that happened today. Anybody who blows that whistle deserves to own the mess that results from it. Anybody.

The thing is, no elected figure or candidate on the left is blowing that whistle. This is a peculiar feature of the right today.

A liberal politician that started saying things like "second amendment remedies", "don't retreat, reload", and "stay armed and dangerous" just couldn't win an election. Not in a million years.

There is no balance here. People are encouraging political violence in american politics, and it has the effect of ratcheting up the danger of violence occurring, on either side. I could see a left wing nutjob doing something similar as a response to that exact same rhetoric, out of fear that the right is about to start shooting liberals. After all, thats the general thrust of such talk.

If you ask for political violence, you will get it from somewhere. There's hundreds of millions of people in this country. Talking about secession, civil war, and revolution, whoever you are, is juuust this side of treason. Frankly i'm amazed nobody has been arrested yet for attempting to foment a revolution.

Exactly. Where's the MSM equivalent of Michael Savage? Katie Couric?

178 Stanghazi  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:12:29pm

re: #164 The Shadow Do

This son of a bitch has done real damage beyond the unfortunate victims of this attack. This is pure terrorism. Is there a public official that does not feel threatened today and going forward? This is a serious attack on our electoral process though that was probably not the intent of this bastard whose brain has been fully stewed in the Paulian broth.

It is awfully third world to think that serious security is necessary to do the mundane job of House Rep. But it obviously is, now.

Excellent point.

179 reloadingisnotahobby  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:12:48pm

re: #168 WindUpBird

I AM OLD...I've never heard of any of those Bands...Damn!
I like Creed....etc...

180 researchok  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:13:26pm

re: #173 Fozzie Bear

Then I would STILL blame people who encourage political violence, on any side.

Right now, it's the Palins, Bachmanns, and Angles doing it. They need to be made to wear this, eat this, and generally be stained forever with it. They fucking own this now, because they literally asked for it.

That I can agree with.

I have said for a long time now that right wing expression has been over the top and has escalated. It has to be dealt with firmly and without exception by the GOP. If it isn't there will be hell to pay.

181 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:13:47pm

re: #166 researchok

You may be right- but what if his politics were different, as posited in comment 57?

Stop asking that question.

Do you expect us liberals to suddenly fold up and say "oh well if he was a democrat then we'd be fine with it or want us to sweep it under a rug?"

The way you're fishing for a chance to label us hypocrits is painfully obvious. No it wouldn't matter if he was a democrat I'd say we'd need to look at what words spoken by who on the left inspired him and do all we could as a party to remove that person from any position of power within that party...

182 researchok  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:14:26pm

re: #176 SanFranciscoZionist

What if they were? I don't understand the question, I think.

See my 64

183 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:14:31pm

re: #173 Fozzie Bear

Then I would STILL blame people who encourage political violence, on any side.

Right now, it's the Palins, Bachmanns, and Angles doing it. They need to be made to wear this, eat this, and generally be stained forever with it. They fucking own this now, because they literally asked for it.

Damn skippy.

184 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:14:43pm

re: #164 The Shadow Do

This son of a bitch has done real damage beyond the unfortunate victims of this attack. This is pure terrorism. Is there a public official that does not feel threatened today and going forward? This is a serious attack on our electoral process though that was probably not the intent of this bastard whose brain has been fully stewed in the Paulian broth.

It is awfully third world to think that serious security is necessary to do the mundane job of House Rep. But it obviously is, now.

That's right. How many representatives who have lobbied for health care reform have received threats? How many will now not speak out because of the threats?

185 b_Snark  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:14:53pm

re: #141 Dark_Falcon

I'm not trying to minimize this, WUB. But I don't think that the political lessons from this will be clear till we know the "who" and the "why" to this murder rampage.

The why looks to be massive confusion and a possible brain chemistry imbalance. As ResearchOK stated, the mental problems probably predated any political leaning, which in turn was probably chosen to validate his preexisting confusion.

186 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:15:02pm

It's amazing to watch the wingnuts on Twitter seizing on that YouTube reading list like a life preserver.

Real herd behavior - hundreds of them instantly start spouting the exact same diversions.

187 What, me worry?  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:15:04pm

re: #167 SanFranciscoZionist

NYT says the Tucson Tea Party has talked to their reporter. Condemning the shooting, not going into psycho damage control. Sounds like they're dealing with it correctly.

Well bully for them. Excuse me while I refrain from hugs and kisses. They bring guns to their rallies, too.

[Link: www.csmonitor.com...]

See pic #7 if it doesn't show.

188 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:15:12pm

Obviously someone who acts out violently is not wholly representative of any of the mass political movements in this country. If it were otherwise, we would have an actual revolution on our hands. I don't think Sarah Palin's map, for example, played any role in inciting this creep, though it's always possible.

What this does do is remind various demagogues, and the rest of us, that violence, gunplay, and assassination happen in real life. It is a warning to them to put the brakes on their violent imagery and rhetoric right now, before it does become a mass movement.

189 freetoken  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:15:17pm

Giffords has, as been noted, been a strong campaigner for immigration reform.

That had made her a target of the anti-immigration crowd, such as this post over at VDare:

Gabrielle Giffords (AZ-8) unmasked

She attracted quite a bit of attention. That she was shot while at a public meeting today shows indeed that to step into the public eye is risky. I hope today's shooting won't stop future public officials from meeting openly with their constituents.

190 Lidane  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:15:32pm

re: #173 Fozzie Bear

Then I would STILL blame people who encourage political violence, on any side.

Right now, it's the Palins, Bachmanns, and Angles doing it. They need to be made to wear this, eat this, and generally be stained forever with it. They fucking own this now, because they literally asked for it.

Yeah, this.

191 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:15:41pm

re: #179 reloadingisnotahobby

I AM OLD...I've never heard of any of those Bands...Damn!
I like Creed...etc...

Welll, some of those bands are old too ;-) Melvins are in their mid 40's I believe, Hawkwind is in their 60's... but most are basically the sorts of stuff that Gen-X stoners like, the people who grew up with Sabbath and then started making their own noise ;-)

192 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:15:58pm

re: #180 researchok

That I can agree with.

I have said for a long time now that right wing expression has been over the top and has escalated. It has to be dealt with firmly and without exception by the GOP. If it isn't there will be hell to pay.

Do you agree that violent right wing rhetoric makes violence from EITHER wing more likely?

That's my point. I could just as easily see a left wing whacko doing something like this because he was convinced that the right wingers were gearing up to take over.

It ratchets up the tension, and in a country as large as this, someone is going to take the ball and run with it if you start talking about violence. And it doesn't necessarily have to be someone who agrees with you.

193 KayInMaine  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:16:05pm

I just read on my Twitter page that Keith Olbermann will be doing a Special Countdown tonight in response to this tragedy. Just letting the 2 people on LGFs (besides me) who likes Keith know! LOL

194 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:16:05pm

re: #182 researchok

See my 64

Um... 64 is my post...

195 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:16:26pm

re: #186 Charles

It's amazing to watch the wingnuts on Twitter seizing on that YouTube reading list like a life preserver.

Real herd behavior - hundreds of them instantly start spouting the exact same diversions.

and twitter makes it easy, it sorta lubricates the proceedings

no effort required, just spread the meme

196 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:16:38pm

re: #194 jamesfirecat

Um... 64 is my post...

Can't you SHARE?

Sheesh.

197 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:16:38pm

re: #180 researchok

That I can agree with.

I have said for a long time now that right wing expression has been over the top and has escalated. It has to be dealt with firmly and without exception by the GOP. If it isn't there will be hell to pay.

This would be an ideal opportunity for the Republican leadership to take a firm hand with some of the more outlying nutters.

Unfortunately, many of them are freelance, and don't need the party, but it would be A Good Thing.

198 elizajane  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:16:41pm

re: #131 WindUpBird

we're already seeing the pushback on twitter, I honestly don't think things will change much

I don't entirely agree. Of course the Michelle Malkins and Red Staters are pushing back like mad. But out in the big real off-blog world? People are not quite that stupid.

I think that one result of this event, a small silver lining to a large cloud, is that Palin's potential candidacy is even deader than it was already. She can't actually scrub her entire past persona. This may be true of the dreadful Bachman as well.

199 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:17:39pm

Presented without comment:

[Link: tjic.com...]

200 freetoken  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:18:00pm

re: #198 elizajane

She can't actually scrub her entire past persona.

As I noted upstream, just two days ago she was intensifying her rhetoric.

Like her buddy Joe Miller, she just doesn't know when to stop.

201 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:18:15pm

re: #195 WindUpBird

and twitter makes it easy, it sorta lubricates the proceedings

no effort required, just spread the meme

Retweeting really is about the most effortless act of expression imaginable.

202 Lidane  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:18:41pm

re: #188 Shiplord Kirel

What this does do is remind various demagogues, and the rest of us, that violence, gunplay, and assassination happen in real life. It is a warning to them to put the brakes on their violent imagery and rhetoric right now, before it does become a mass movement.

Sadly, it took the deaths of a federal judge and a child, and a member of Congress getting shot in the head for people to get any reminder of that at all.

203 albusteve  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:18:49pm

re: #188 Shiplord Kirel

Obviously someone who acts out violently is not wholly representative of any of the mass political movements in this country. If it were otherwise, we would have an actual revolution on our hands. I don't think Sarah Palin's map, for example, played any role in inciting this creep, though it's always possible.

What this does do is remind various demagogues, and the rest of us, that violence, gunplay, and assassination happen in real life. It is a warning to them to put the brakes on their violent imagery and rhetoric right now, before it does become a mass movement.

nice, a clear voice of reason....thanks ship

204 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:19:08pm

re: #199 Charles

Presented without comment:

[Link: tjic.com...]

Disgusting.

205 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:19:08pm

re: #187 marjoriemoon

Well bully for them. Excuse me while I refrain from hugs and kisses. They bring guns to their rallies, too.

[Link: www.csmonitor.com...]

See pic #7 if it doesn't show.

Pffffth. That was Phoenix, not Tucson.

///

206 researchok  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:19:31pm

re: #181 jamesfirecat

Stop asking that question.

Do you expect us liberals to suddenly fold up and say "oh well if he was a democrat then we'd be fine with it or want us to sweep it under a rug?"

The way you're fishing for a chance to label us hypocrits is painfully obvious. No it wouldn't matter if he was a democrat I'd say we'd need to look at what words spoken by who on the left inspired him and do all we could as a party to remove that person from any position of power within that party...

No, you missed my point- I was agreeing with you.

The rhetoric of excess- clearly now owned by the GOP- has served as the tipping point for the nut jobs.

What I wanted to say was that even if he turned out to claim to have been motivated by extreme left politics (as alleged in that tweet) it was only the tipping point for someone who was already nuts.

You are right to note that the tenor of the over the top rhetoric has got to stop. And for now, that rhetoric is coming mostly from the right. Thus, no one ought to be surprised if most of the nut jobs claim right wing politics as their motivator.

207 Obdicut  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:19:42pm

re: #192 Fozzie Bear

Yes, exactly. It's not just that the increase in violent rhetoric coming from the right is going to inspire those on the right to commit violence, but that it legitimizes violence in the political arena.

"2nd Amendment Solutions" should have gotten Angle repudiated by the GOP as a whole. It didn't. The GOP largely just ignored her, as though she wasn't really a part of them, didn't really show a rising problem.

208 albusteve  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:20:24pm

re: #191 WindUpBird

hey, I did catch your Clutch thing the other night...a good example of exactly the point you were making...smash mouth evolves into stylish smash mouth

209 steve  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:20:24pm

re: #199 Charles

Presented without comment:

[Link: tjic.com...]

sick!

210 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:20:31pm

re: #199 Charles

Presented without comment:

[Link: tjic.com...]

what the f...? i don't know that blog, but wow.

211 researchok  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:21:01pm

re: #192 Fozzie Bear

Do you agree that violent right wing rhetoric makes violence from EITHER wing more likely?

That's my point. I could just as easily see a left wing whacko doing something like this because he was convinced that the right wingers were gearing up to take over.

It ratchets up the tension, and in a country as large as this, someone is going to take the ball and run with it if you start talking about violence. And it doesn't necessarily have to be someone who agrees with you.

I agree wholeheartedly.

212 jaunte  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:21:05pm

re: #199 Charles

Disgusting.

213 Lidane  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:21:23pm

re: #199 Charles

Presented without comment:

[Link: tjic.com...]

Oh my god. Beyond disgusting.

What's worse are the people piling on the commenter who objected.

214 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:21:35pm

re: #199 Charles

Presented without comment:

[Link: tjic.com...]

As far as I am concerned, that is fomenting revolution, and should result in that person spending a large amount of time in a small box.

Freedom of speech isn't absolute. There are limits.

We need to be trying people who say things like this, not merely sighing and throwing our hands up.

215 FQ Kafir  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:21:38pm

re: #199 Charles

Abhorrent.

216 albusteve  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:21:49pm

re: #202 Lidane

Sadly, it took the deaths of a federal judge and a child, and a member of Congress getting shot in the head for people to get any reminder of that at all.

better than nothing...it's a wonder she's alive
maybe this will slow down the rhetorical nutbangers

217 The Shadow Do  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:21:51pm

re: #184 Amory Blaine

That's right. How many representatives who have lobbied for health care reform have received threats? How many will now not speak out because of the threats?

It's not just HCR. That is too narrow. Literally any position taken publicly can get you or your family killed. Mexico redux. This is the tip of the ugly.

218 Stanghazi  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:22:10pm

re: #201 Fozzie Bear

Retweeting really is about the most effortless act of expression imaginable.

oh so guilty

219 celticdragon  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:22:21pm

re: #188 Shiplord Kirel

Obviously someone who acts out violently is not wholly representative of any of the mass political movements in this country. If it were otherwise, we would have an actual revolution on our hands. I don't think Sarah Palin's map, for example, played any role in inciting this creep, though it's always possible.

What this does do is remind various demagogues, and the rest of us, that violence, gunplay, and assassination happen in real life. It is a warning to them to put the brakes on their violent imagery and rhetoric right now, before it does become a mass movement.

Yes.

220 Obdicut  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:22:40pm

re: #210 Aceofwhat?

It's interesting to note that this guy is an anarcho-capitalist-- similar to the shooter, though more coherent.

221 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:22:43pm

re: #199 Charles

Presented without comment:

[Link: tjic.com...]

I'm pretty sure that's not a left wing blog.

222 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:23:00pm

re: #199 Charles

Presented without comment:

[Link: tjic.com...]

Some people are just foul.

223 albusteve  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:23:13pm

re: #207 Obdicut

Yes, exactly. It's not just that the increase in violent rhetoric coming from the right is going to inspire those on the right to commit violence, but that it legitimizes violence in the political arena.

"2nd Amendment Solutions" should have gotten Angle repudiated by the GOP as a whole. It didn't. The GOP largely just ignored her, as though she wasn't really a part of them, didn't really show a rising problem.

it started with Steele way last year...I resent him for not speaking out at the time....evolution!

224 Lidane  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:24:05pm

re: #221 Charles

I'm pretty sure that's not a left wing blog.

Definitely not:

[Link: tjic.com...]

225 KayInMaine  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:24:13pm

re: #181 jamesfirecat

That's how I see it too! Though my mind and heart believe this shooter is a righty, but if it's found out that he's truly a lefty, I will be just as pissed off because violence begets violence and it never solves anything!

226 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:24:18pm

re: #222 SanFranciscoZionist

Would it be a good idea for me to report this to someone?

227 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:24:24pm

re: #217 The Shadow Do

It's not just HCR. That is too narrow. Literally any position taken publicly can get you or your family killed. Mexico redux. This is the tip of the ugly.

I agree. I was only using health care reform as an example.

228 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:24:32pm

re: #214 Fozzie Bear

As far as I am concerned, that is fomenting revolution, and should result in that person spending a large amount of time in a small box.

Freedom of speech isn't absolute. There are limits.

We need to be trying people who say things like this, not merely sighing and throwing our hands up.

he's an "anarcho-capitalist". IIRC, that's how Barrett identifies himself. Note that i am not saying Barrett would necessarily support this particular sentiment, but the 'anarcho' crowd has an underbelly every bit as ugly as the rabid Paulian underbelly...

229 reloadingisnotahobby  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:24:33pm

Personally ,I'm glad the MSM is giving this POS very little air time (I think)
All I want to know in the future is if he is found mentally sound(??) he is found guilty!
With a foot note in one or two papers when he is executed!!

230 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:24:41pm

How is that blog post Charles linked legal? The guy is literally encouraging revolution, openly. He's screaming "fire" in the theater. He is telling people to go forth and kill.

This needs to be wound back, and it needs to be prosecuted as the crime that it is.

231 b_Snark  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:24:43pm

re: #152 marjoriemoon

I don't think see it like that. When an awesome Democrat like Giffords gets shot like this, not doing some random, going about her business kinda thing, but at a political rally, it's safe to GUESS that it's politically motivated, even if we point to cases like John Hinckley which isn't usual. Moreso, when we have violent rhetoric coming out of one party and not the other. I'm not saying that there are no examples of rage and violence from the Left, but it holds no candle to that of the Right, and I would add, from people who are pretty far up in the pecking order, like Sarah Palin.

Even more when the Left supports gun control and the Right does not. That isn't demonization. It's the truth.

My point wasn't that of the MBF, but that some of the effort in pigeonholing this guy into a specific political ideology looks to be bias confirmation. It is quite obvious that the current right is far more willing to promote violence than the left and should be condemned on it's own, so pining this guy to the right's ass isn't really necessary.

232 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:24:52pm

re: #199 Charles

Presented without comment:

[Link: tjic.com...]

One of the posters there gets called out for saying "1 down, 434 to go." Someone then defends the poster by calling this "abstract." That is exactly the problem here. Crosshairs on your political rivals and calls to "lock and load" are not an abstraction in the real world.
To be fair, neither are calls to kick the opposition's collective ass, but I think we can take the chance on some nut actually trying that and getting the literal, as opposed to figurative, shit beaten out of him by the cops.

233 recusancy  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:25:04pm

re: #221 Charles

I'm pretty sure that's not a left wing blog.

but but but he says he's a primate so he's obviously pro evolutionist! ///////////////////////////////////

234 researchok  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:25:06pm

re: #222 SanFranciscoZionist

Some people are just foul.

Or, rotted

235 celticdragon  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:25:15pm

re: #199 Charles

Presented without comment:

[Link: tjic.com...]


My God.

I cannot imagine the depravity behind that kind of thinking.

236 The Shadow Do  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:25:16pm

There is a reason that the Senate requires respectful discourse in its chambers. God forbid this is ever lost.

237 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:25:17pm

re: #220 Obdicut

It's interesting to note that this guy is an anarcho-capitalist-- similar to the shooter, though more coherent.

yeah, that little tidbit might as well have been in flashing lights...it jumped off of the page.

238 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:25:40pm

re: #226 ProLifeLiberal

Would it be a good idea for me to report this to someone?

I don't think there's a law against being an absolute asshole on the Internet, and I assue the Secret Service reads all this stuff as well as us.

Who did you have in mind?

239 Obdicut  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:25:45pm

re: #228 Aceofwhat?

A lot of Paulians are anarcho-capitalists. Not very bright ones, since they manage to ignore that Paul is a theocrat.

240 albusteve  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:25:54pm

re: #225 KayInMaine

That's how I see it too! Though my mind and heart believe this shooter is a righty, but if it's found out that he's truly a lefty, I will be just as pissed off because violence begets violence and it never solves anything!

left is loose
right is tight
payday come on Friday night
left or right is not important to me...
bragging rights accomplish nothing

241 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:26:29pm

re: #199 Charles

Another scab of humanity. This kind of abuse of our right to free speech just damn near ruins the concept. Much like murderous shootings ruins the concept behind the 2nd amendment. Both become harder to support. Truly awful.

So maybe the best push back is stark repeated civil discourse and behavior. I'll not expect this but we have an opportunity for many to disavow the harsh rhetoric.

242 celticdragon  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:26:36pm

re: #216 albusteve

better than nothing...it's a wonder she's alive
maybe this will slow down the rhetorical nutbangers


Don't count on it. Redstate is already crying that the mean lefties are saying bad things about them.

243 reloadingisnotahobby  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:26:41pm

Ironic...The Rifle Scope ad for Barska at the top of the thread....

244 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:26:57pm

re: #224 Lidane

Definitely not:

[Link: tjic.com...]

"TJIC is an anarcho-capitalist.

TJIC thinks that if there’s a better novel than _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, he hasn’t seen it yet.

TJIC thinks that the Constitution is a great document, and it’s a shame that noone uses it anymore."


You know what's funny? A guy who is a civilian defense contractor said that the military already has plans for how to crush an uprising like the one in the Moon is a Harsh Mistress...

245 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:27:05pm

re: #239 Obdicut

A lot of Paulians are anarcho-capitalists. Not very bright ones, since they manage to ignore that Paul is a theocrat.

yes, excellent point.

246 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:27:12pm

re: #199 Charles

OK, that was a trip to a sewer.

247 jaunte  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:27:15pm

re: #233 recusancy

He appears to be an anarcho-capitalist cranky small businessman.

248 b_Snark  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:27:50pm

re: #168 WindUpBird

I like those!

I also like Clutch, Kyuss, The Sword, High on Fire, Melvins, Sleep, Black Pyramid, Electric Wizard, Sons of Otis, Nebula, Hawkwind, Mastodon, Baroness, Atomic Bitchwax, Cathedral, Tiamat, Earth, Spiritual Beggars, Dozer...

Hey there youngun, the only one I recognized out of that group was Hawkwind.

249 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:28:32pm

re: #238 SanFranciscoZionist

Secret Service or someone. My logic is that whoever this guy is encouraging/attempting to incite assassination. That seems to be something that I should do something about.

250 researchok  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:28:40pm

re: #244 jamesfirecat

"TJIC is an anarcho-capitalist.

TJIC thinks that if there’s a better novel than _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, he hasn’t seen it yet.

TJIC thinks that the Constitution is a great document, and it’s a shame that noone uses it anymore."

You know what's funny? A guy who is a civilian defense contractor said that the military already has plans for how to crush an uprising like the one in the Moon is a Harsh Mistress...

This is a guy who was probably picked on in kindergarten.

251 celticdragon  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:29:09pm

re: #230 Fozzie Bear

How is that blog post Charles linked legal? The guy is literally encouraging revolution, openly. He's screaming "fire" in the theater. He is telling people to go forth and kill.

This needs to be wound back, and it needs to be prosecuted as the crime that it is.


I don't know how far this kind of investigation can go. It took a hell of a lot to shut down that sick anti abortion murder-the-doctors website, if you recall.

252 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:29:15pm

re: #167 SanFranciscoZionist

NYT says the Tucson Tea Party has talked to their reporter. Condemning the shooting, not going into psycho damage control. Sounds like they're dealing with it correctly.

Of course, the Tucson TP is saying what needs to be said...they're not all stupid! It's not like they can just come out and say, "Way to go, Jared!", even if they do sympathize with the murderous bastard...

253 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:29:38pm

re: #242 celticdragon

Don't count on it. Redstate is already crying that the mean lefties are saying bad things about them.

I will now proceed to scream.

A FEDERAL JUDGE AND A CHILD WERE KILLED. A MEMBER OF THE US CONGRESS WAS SHOT THROUGH THE HEAD. THIS WAS AN ATTACK ON AMERICA, TO A DEGREE THAT MAKES WORRYING ABOUT WHETHER THE LEFTIES ARE MEAN PRETTY IRRELEVENT.

OK. Carry on.

254 Obdicut  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:29:49pm

re: #246 Floral Giraffe

He thinks Obama is a socialist.

I do think that literally saying that people should target congresspeople for shooting rises to the level of an actual threat, and that he should be prosecuted for saying it. I'm all for free speech, but he's actively encouraging people to target politicians and their staff.

255 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:29:52pm

re: #250 researchok

This is a guy who was probably picked on in kindergarten.

Hey I was picked on in kindergarten, lets not reach for the low hanging fruit!

256 BongCrodny  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:29:55pm

re: #199 Charles

Presented without comment:

[Link: tjic.com...]


I feel like I've just gone swimming in a sewer.

257 Stanghazi  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:30:10pm

re: #241 Rightwingconspirator

Another scab of humanity. This kind of abuse of our right to free speech just damn near ruins the concept. Much like murderous shootings ruins the concept behind the 2nd amendment. Both become harder to support. Truly awful.

So maybe the best push back is stark repeated civil discourse and behavior. I'll not expect this but we have an opportunity for many to disavow the harsh rhetoric.

All I can say is, unfortunately, today has been very enlightening. For many. (I hope)

258 albusteve  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:30:22pm

re: #241 Rightwingconspirator

Another scab of humanity. This kind of abuse of our right to free speech just damn near ruins the concept. Much like murderous shootings ruins the concept behind the 2nd amendment. Both become harder to support. Truly awful.

So maybe the best push back is stark repeated civil discourse and behavior. I'll not expect this but we have an opportunity for many to disavow the harsh rhetoric.

like I keep saying, the First is gonna take some sort of hit in the near future...hate crimes/delusional bloggers/inspiring, accommodating violence will all be scrutinized closely....it has to be that way

259 researchok  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:30:23pm

re: #255 jamesfirecat

Hey I was picked on in kindergarten, lets not reach for the low hanging fruit!

LOLOL

260 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:30:29pm

re: #243 reloadingisnotahobby

Ironic...The Rifle Scope ad for Barska at the top of the thread...

Yeah. I got it too. It's the Muslim Singles problem again. The machine doesn't know the difference between talking about the shooting of a Congresswoman and going shooting this weekend with your friends.

261 jaunte  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:30:33pm

re: #253 SanFranciscoZionist

I will echo that scream.


A FEDERAL JUDGE AND A CHILD WERE KILLED. A MEMBER OF THE US CONGRESS WAS SHOT THROUGH THE HEAD. THIS WAS AN ATTACK ON AMERICA, TO A DEGREE THAT MAKES WORRYING ABOUT WHETHER THE LEFTIES ARE MEAN PRETTY IRRELEVENT.
262 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:30:55pm

re: #253 SanFranciscoZionist

Domestic terrorism, is what this was.

263 albusteve  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:31:26pm

re: #242 celticdragon

Don't count on it. Redstate is already crying that the mean lefties are saying bad things about them.

tough shit...It's bigger than some Red State fool

264 researchok  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:31:36pm

re: #262 Floral Giraffe

Domestic terrorism, is what this was.

At a bare minimum.

265 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:32:34pm

re: #253 SanFranciscoZionist
Well said.
Hey folks, I put my 1+ there. I'd love to see that as a top comment. Caps and all. Ding it up Lizards.

266 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:32:49pm

Having actually been shot at by politically motivated opponents (Sadr's Tater Tots, among others), I tend to be a bit sensitive about firearms-related rhetoric.

267 albusteve  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:32:53pm

re: #251 celticdragon

I don't know how far this kind of investigation can go. It took a hell of a lot to shut down that sick anti abortion murder-the-doctors website, if you recall.

the lw can be changed with the stroke of a pen

268 celticdragon  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:33:28pm

re: #263 albusteve

tough shit...It's bigger than some Red State fool


Another chapter in their non stop permanent vicitim narrativee.

Like you and SFZ said...It isn't all about you, you fucking idiots! People are dead and you are afraid the lefties are saying something about you??!

269 The Shadow Do  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:34:18pm

OT - Da Saints gettin dey butts wupped. By Seattle fer cryin out loud!

270 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:34:32pm

re: #244 jamesfirecat

"TJIC is an anarcho-capitalist.

TJIC thinks that if there’s a better novel than _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, he hasn’t seen it yet.

TJIC thinks that the Constitution is a great document, and it’s a shame that noone uses it anymore."


You know what's funny? A guy who is a civilian defense contractor said that the military already has plans for how to crush an uprising like the one in the Moon is a Harsh Mistress...

So, plural interracial marriage all around?

I'm down with it.

271 Stanghazi  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:34:38pm

Why is my mind traveling to the History Channel's 1968 show.

Sorry, this has hit me hard. We've been writing about it all these months. We've objected all along the way.

The demagoguery, dog whistles, hate speech. We've been watching, and damn today I feel it came home.

272 celticdragon  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:35:36pm

re: #271 Stanley Sea

Why is my mind traveling to the History Channel's 1968 show.

Sorry, this has hit me hard. We've been writing about it all these months. We've objected all along the way.

The demagoguery, dog whistles, hate speech. We've been watching, and damn today I feel it came home.


I don't think any of us here were even remotely surprised by this.

273 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:35:40pm

re: #249 ProLifeLiberal

Secret Service or someone. My logic is that whoever this guy is encouraging/attempting to incite assassination. That seems to be something that I should do something about.

What I'd do, I think, is see if there's a contact number or e-mail address for the local FBI office.

274 William of Orange  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:36:13pm

From our friend at Crooks and liars; an interview with Giffords discussing the vandalizing of her campaign headquarters. The bullseye remark (no pun) comes after two minutes and 12 seconds. She mentions the map which Sarah Palin posted on her website with the targets on the Arizona state, among others.

There's consequences to that action...

275 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:36:19pm

re: #243 reloadingisnotahobby

Ironic...The Rifle Scope ad for Barska at the top of the thread...

It's a very good product, if a bit pricey. Doesn't have a place in the political dynamic, however.

276 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:36:23pm

re: #258 albusteve

You may be right, but the rights are bigger than any of this long term.

277 Lidane  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:36:25pm

re: #269 The Shadow Do

OT - Da Saints gettin dey butts wupped. By Seattle fer cryin out loud!

Which is making me WTF all over the place. I can't wrap my head around Seattle winning. It makes no sense.

278 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:36:39pm

re: #272 celticdragon

I don't think any of us here were even remotely surprised by this.

Frankly, I was shocked.

I still am.

279 b_Snark  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:36:52pm

re: #244 jamesfirecat

"TJIC is an anarcho-capitalist.

TJIC thinks that if there’s a better novel than _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, he hasn’t seen it yet.

TJIC thinks that the Constitution is a great document, and it’s a shame that noone uses it anymore."

You know what's funny? A guy who is a civilian defense contractor said that the military already has plans for how to crush an uprising like the one in the Moon is a Harsh Mistress...

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is a great book, but forming your political belief system from a Science fiction book is foolish.

280 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:36:57pm

re: #273 SanFranciscoZionist

Count on me doing that as soon as feasible.

281 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:38:06pm

re: #279 b_sharp

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is a great book, but forming your political belief system from a Science fiction book is foolish.

Forming your religious belief system around it however is a great way to make money!

282 albusteve  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:38:13pm

re: #276 Rightwingconspirator

You may be right, but the rights are bigger than any of this long term.

rights are legislated...no real patriot would do such a heinous thing, knowing that rights can be so easily restricted

283 The Shadow Do  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:38:18pm

re: #277 Lidane

Which is making me WTF all over the place. I can't wrap my head around Seattle winning. It makes no sense.

Paranormal activity.

284 b_Snark  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:38:19pm

re: #253 SanFranciscoZionist

I will now proceed to scream.

A FEDERAL JUDGE AND A CHILD WERE KILLED. A MEMBER OF THE US CONGRESS WAS SHOT THROUGH THE HEAD. THIS WAS AN ATTACK ON AMERICA, TO A DEGREE THAT MAKES WORRYING ABOUT WHETHER THE LEFTIES ARE MEAN PRETTY IRRELEVENT.

OK. Carry on.

I could hear you way up here.

285 KayInMaine  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:38:23pm

re: #240 albusteve

I'm sorry but I truly don't understand your response to me!

286 Obdicut  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:38:27pm

re: #279 b_sharp

It's a great book, but the political system described therin is idiotic in the extreme.

287 Lidane  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:38:28pm

re: #279 b_sharp

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is a great book, but forming your political belief system from a Science fiction book is foolish.

Kinda like all the Ayn Rand fans forming their political views based on Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead.

288 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:38:35pm

re: #278 wrenchwench

Frankly, I was shocked.

I still am.

But were you really surprised?

Not only am I not surprised, I expect more of the same, because that's what results from that kind of rhetoric.

It's not like the late 60's were 1200 years ago. How could people not see this coming?

289 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:38:40pm

re: #252 talon_262

Of course, the Tucson TP is saying what needs to be said...they're not all stupid! It's not like they can just come out and say, "Way to go, Jared!", even if they do sympathize with the murderous bastard...

True, but they are behaving correctly. Which is better than NOT behaving correctly.

290 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:38:41pm

re: #244 jamesfirecat

"TJIC is an anarcho-capitalist.

TJIC thinks that if there’s a better novel than _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, he hasn’t seen it yet.

TJIC thinks that the Constitution is a great document, and it’s a shame that noone uses it anymore."

You know what's funny? A guy who is a civilian defense contractor said that the military already has plans for how to crush an uprising like the one in the Moon is a Harsh Mistress...

I wonder if that dude has a "D-FENS" license plate...

/Falling Down

291 albusteve  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:38:43pm

re: #277 Lidane

Which is making me WTF all over the place. I can't wrap my head around Seattle winning. It makes no sense.

it's the NFL, don't bet on it

292 William of Orange  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:39:24pm

re: #27 tradewind

The right???
I know it's painful for you that this guy wasn't say, a Tea Party leader, but it's not the right that shot up this group.
It was a nutcase who was offended when he was given a bible by a recruiter, who from his ramblings was much more comfortable with the far left.

And that's why you bring a gun to a political rally.... Open your eyes, asshole!

293 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:39:26pm

re: #287 Lidane

Kinda like all the Ayn Rand fans forming their political views based on Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead.

I'm still waiting for some major to CEO to go Galt and vanish from civilized society, I'd be happy to take his job!

294 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:39:32pm

re: #277 Lidane

Which is making me WTF all over the place. I can't wrap my head around Seattle winning. It makes no sense.

The saints are minus two RB's, two TE's, and a safety. The seahawks are much healthier IIRC.

295 Stanghazi  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:39:42pm

re: #288 Fozzie Bear

But were you really surprised?

Not only am I not surprised, I expect more of the same, because that's what results from that kind of rhetoric.

It's not like the late 60's were 1200 years ago. How could people not see this coming?

A tide has turned today.

296 austin_blue  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:39:55pm

re: #235 celticdragon

My God.

I cannot imagine the depravity behind that kind of thinking.

Sadly, I can. This is modern America, where the IntraNetz give you legitimacy.

298 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:40:59pm

re: #279 b_sharp

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is a great book, but forming your political belief system from a Science fiction book is foolish.

Silly. Everyone knows Sci-Fi is where you go to form religious beliefs.

299 Stanghazi  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:41:07pm

re: #297 Killgore Trout

Beck mocked Pelosi for crying re fear of violence

Imagine being a member of Congress today.

Imagine.

300 Lidane  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:41:21pm

re: #298 Decatur Deb

Silly. Everyone knows Sci-Fi is where you go to form religious beliefs.

It's what Xenu would've wanted. Heh.

301 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:41:22pm

re: #295 Stanley Sea

A tide has turned today.

I seriously doubt this will be enough to turn the tide. It wasn't enough in the late 60's. This will have to play itself out a few more times before people fucking wake up.

I wish it weren't so, but people, in large groups, just don't learn very quickly. This will be nearly forgotten in 3 months.

302 The Shadow Do  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:41:29pm

re: #294 Aceofwhat?

The saints are minus two RB's, two TE's, and a safety. The seahawks are much healthier IIRC.

And they have extraterrestrials inhabiting their bodies - for today

303 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:41:36pm

re: #297 Killgore Trout

Beck mocked Pelosi for crying re fear of violence

Wow Beck mocking someone for crying... considering who our new House Majority leader is, that's a hyporcracy twofer!

304 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:41:58pm

re: #300 Lidane

It's what Xenu would've wanted. Heh.

I grok ya.

305 recusancy  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:42:06pm

re: #287 Lidane

Kinda like all the Ayn Rand fans forming their political views based on Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead.

You mean like Paul Ryan?

306 HappyWarrior  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:42:12pm

re: #297 Killgore Trout

Beck mocked Pelosi for crying re fear of violence

He's such a pathetic asshole. Fuck him seriously.

307 steve  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:42:20pm

re: #236 The Shadow Do

There is a reason that the Senate requires respectful discourse in its chambers. God forbid this is ever lost.

Does this include all the dueling and fighting that went in Congress on from day one through the Civil War?

308 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:43:30pm

re: #288 Fozzie Bear

But were you really surprised?

Not only am I not surprised, I expect more of the same, because that's what results from that kind of rhetoric.

It's not like the late 60's were 1200 years ago. How could people not see this coming?

I think we are in for a long, scary couple of years.
This will embolden others to act in the same way.
I don't know what it will take for this country to heal.
This is just madness.

309 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:43:36pm

re: #307 steve

Does this include all the dueling and fighting that went in Congress on from day one through the Civil War?

///That's why they're only legally able to bring whiffle canes in with them now...

310 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:43:44pm

re: #301 Fozzie Bear

Beg to differ. This will echo up into 2012 at least.

311 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:43:56pm

re: #242 celticdragon

Don't count on it. Redstate is already crying that the mean lefties are saying bad things about them.

It couldn't be that they might be feeling a twinge guilty (and also want to cover their asses) because they've been helping to stir shit like this up...

312 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:44:43pm

re: #310 Rightwingconspirator

Beg to differ. This will echo up into 2012 at least.

I hope you are right, but I think you are wrong.

Lets hope i'm just cynical.

313 steve  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:45:22pm

re: #309 jamesfirecat

///That's why they're only legally able to bring whiffle canes in with them now...

I would almost pay to see a couple of Congressmen/women in a boxing ring to settle things!

314 Reginald Perrin  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:46:18pm

re: #221 Charles

I'm pretty sure that's not a left wing blog.

Sure, sure, I suppose you also deny that Hitler was a leftist.
///

315 steve  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:46:35pm

Seahawks 34
Rams 20

WTF?

316 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:46:44pm

re: #274 William of Orange

That's really creepy. Reminds me of the interview with the WTC manager who discussed the possibility of a plane crashing into the building. Iirc, this was just a few months before he was killed in the 9-11 attacks.

317 KayInMaine  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:47:20pm

Here the shooter is holding left and right leanings:

"No I won't pay debt with a currency that's not backed by gold and silver!"

"No! I won't trust in God!"

If this is his YouTube Channel, I wonder how many more like him are on there. *cringe* He's seems to be in fear of being brainwashed by our currency (or new currency that only he knew about!) or something like that! There's gotta to be more to the story than "I'm going to shoot Giffords and everyone else because I fear currency"!

318 b_Snark  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:47:36pm

re: #313 steve

I would almost pay to see a couple of Congressmen/women in a boxing ring to settle things!

Put 4 of them in the octagon.

319 The Shadow Do  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:48:22pm

re: #307 steve

Does this include all the dueling and fighting that went in Congress on from day one through the Civil War?

Mostly in the peoples house, but I hear you. Fortunately such behaviour is universally frowned on. May it stay that way.

320 steve  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:48:23pm

re: #318 b_sharp

Put 4 of them in the octagon.

Ooooh....Cage Match

321 Stanghazi  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:48:26pm
In February, when U.S. District Judge John Roll presided over a $32 million civil-rights lawsuit filed by illegal immigrants against an Arizona rancher, the Marshals Service was anticipating the fallout. When Roll ruled the case could go forward, Gonzales said talk-radio shows cranked up the controversy and spurred audiences into making threats. In one afternoon, Roll logged more than 200 phone calls. Callers threatened the judge and his family. They posted personal information about Roll online. "They said, 'We should kill him. He should be dead,' " Gonzales said.

I hate this shit.

I'm really pissed he's dead. RIP, Judge Roll. Your poor family.

Target or not, whatever. These are people serving their fucking country. gah

322 avanti  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:48:26pm

Crazy Pam:

"Arizona Shooter Jared Loughner: A Certified Lefty Nut -- His Videos, Favorite Books: Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf UPDATE: High School Friend Calls Him "Very Lefty" "

323 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:48:43pm

Tweeted the link to that sick blog, and almost immediately got this:

@Lizardoid That guy isnt right wing, he's just another nut. Now apologize to real conservatives. Thanks in advance.

324 Obdicut  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:49:11pm

re: #323 Charles

No true Scotsman is right wing.

325 celticdragon  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:49:28pm

re: #278 wrenchwench

Frankly, I was shocked.

I still am.

I should have been, but I wasn't. The only thing that mildly srprised me was that it took this long, given how violent the political language started becoming in 2008.

326 William of Orange  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:49:38pm

Oh, how predictable! Pamela Geller on the youtube videos of Loughner:

On video one:

This is from his youtube channel. Total lefty loon.

On video two:

Arizona Shooter Jared Loughner: A Certified Lefty Nut -- His Videos, Favorite Books: Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf UPDATE: High School Friend Calls Him "Very Lefty" PHOTO
This is from his youtube channel. Total lefty loon.


A certified nut.......


No discussion about that last remark but the rest is soooo totally left. (not....)

She doesn't deserve a link here.

327 Lidane  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:50:08pm

re: #317 KayInMaine

Those aren't necessarily views from opposing sides. It's not uncommon for libertarians and anarcho-capitalists to be atheist, especially if they're influenced by Ayn Rand.

328 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:50:09pm

re: #321 Stanley Sea

I hate this shit.

I'm really pissed he's dead. RIP, Judge Roll. Your poor family.

Target or not, whatever. These are people serving their fucking country. gah

Hmmm I wonder who the right wing radio nut jobs were.

329 jaunte  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:50:19pm

re: #324 Obdicut

If a clod be washed away, he wasn't our clod.

330 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:50:40pm

re: #317 KayInMaine

Here the shooter is holding left and right leanings:

If this is his YouTube Channel, I wonder how many more like him are on there. *cringe* He's seems to be in fear of being brainwashed by our currency (or new currency that only he knew about!) or something like that! There's gotta to be more to the story than "I'm going to shoot Giffords and everyone else because I fear currency"!

Being an Athiest does not automatically make one liberal. As has been mentioned before, there are plenty of liberterians who want to follow Rand in denying God has anything to do with our lives because it jells much more with their "I've got mine, fuck you" view of life than does Jesus' actual teachings.

That said I don't know many liberals who care about if our money is on the gold standard or not....

331 Lidane  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:51:17pm

re: #326 William of Orange

Pfft. Everyone to the left of Atilla the Hun is a lefty loon in the Harpy's eyes.

332 KayInMaine  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:51:19pm

Glenn Beck has people stocking up with food from Foodinsurance.com and buying gold, because the dollar is low and because the End Times are coming. *cringe* The shooter says not to trust god, so was today his way of taking control of what god wants? *cringe again*

I'm tired of trying to figure this guy out! He's a murderer!

333 KayInMaine  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:52:08pm

re: #327 Lidane

True. Thanks.

334 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:52:58pm

re: #321 Stanley Sea

Do you have a link for that?

335 Lidane  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:53:17pm

re: #332 KayInMaine

It's never comfortable to try and understand the motives of a killer. However, in this case, it has to be done, especially since we've had escalating violent rhetoric in politics ever since Barack Obama was elected.

336 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:53:28pm

re: #288 Fozzie Bear

But were you really surprised?

Not only am I not surprised, I expect more of the same, because that's what results from that kind of rhetoric.

It's not like the late 60's were 1200 years ago. How could people not see this coming?

In a way I am not surprised. I remember the late sixties. I thought the world was coming apart. Well, it still hasn't come apart.

It's hard to describe feeling shocked but not surprised. Some of the shock is from feeling like this happened in my neighborhood, although I'm hundreds of miles away in New Mexico.

337 Stanghazi  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:53:43pm

re: #334 Amory Blaine

Do you have a link for that?

[Link: www.azcentral.com...]

338 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:53:49pm

re: #332 KayInMaine

Glenn Beck has people stocking up with food from Foodinsurance.com and buying gold, because the dollar is low and because the End Times are coming. *cringe* The shooter says not to trust god, so was today his way of taking control of what god wants? *cringe again*

I'm tired of trying to figure this guy out! He's a murderer!

The sad thing is that we... or at least somebody had better figure this guy out so that we can be ready for the inevitable time when someone tries to follow in his footsteps.

We obviously don't have enough info to make decisive conclusions now but we can at least generate hypothesises....

339 allegro  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:54:39pm

re: #311 talon_262

It couldn't be that they might be feeling a twinge guilty (and also want to cover their asses) because they've been helping to stir shit like this up...

I think you give them credit for introspection and empathy that they have not demonstrated a capacity for.

340 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:55:02pm

re: #338 jamesfirecat

The sad thing is that we... or at least somebody had better figure this guy out so that we can be ready for the inevitable time when someone tries to follow in his footsteps.

We obviously don't have enough info to make decisive conclusions now but we can at least generate hypothesises...

Yes... "it's you and me against the world..." sing alone everyone!

341 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:55:02pm

re: #324 Obdicut

No true Scotsman is right wing.

Except Sarah Palin.

342 steve  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:55:03pm

re: #324 Obdicut

No true Scotsman is right wing.


Anybody can call themselves anything they want to.

343 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:55:07pm

re: #311 talon_262

It couldn't be that they might be feeling a twinge guilty (and also want to cover their asses) because they've been helping to stir shit like this up...

I very much doubt they feel guilty. There's no reason for them to.

These are people who subscribe to an ideology where everything is about two sides, us and them. And one side is pure, whole good, and the other side is monstrous, unremitting evil. As far as they're concerned, the shooter is a violent leftist. And the liberals are doing even worse - not satisfied with merely producing violent leftists, they're actually daring to politicise this event and use it to attack them.

How can you feel guilty when your enemies are so evil?

344 Stanghazi  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:55:14pm

owillis

Cons who see politics in everything suddenly become apolitical when their rhetoric bcomes a liability

345 jaunte  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:55:23pm

Representative Gabrielle Giffords on Violent Political Rhetoric, March 2010

“I think it’s important for all leaders, not just leaders of the Republican Party or the Democratic Party … community leaders, figures in our community to say, ‘Look, we can’t stand for this.’ I mean, this is a situation where people really need to realize that this rhetoric, and firing people up, and even things … For example, we’re on Sarah Palin’s targeted list, but the way she has it depicted has the crosshairs of a gunsight over our district. And when people do that, they’ve gotta realize that there’s consequences to that action.”
346 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:55:36pm

It's really disgusting that this happened at one of those informal "press the flesh" events in which a politician quite deliberately fore goes the usual security in order to meet constituents face to face.
It is something of an American institution, and the source of endless arguments with security conscious aides. I guess the latter will have the upper hand from now on, and you can meet your representative only after a careful individual screening.

347 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:56:17pm

Witness: Gunman 'was going for the congresswoman'

[Link: azstarnet.com...]

348 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:57:05pm

re: #343 Renaissance_Man

I very much doubt they feel guilty. There's no reason for them to.

These are people who subscribe to an ideology where everything is about two sides, us and them. And one side is pure, whole good, and the other side is monstrous, unremitting evil. As far as they're concerned, the shooter is a violent leftist. And the liberals are doing even worse - not satisfied with merely producing violent leftists, they're actually daring to politicise this event and use it to attack them.

How can you feel guilty when your enemies are so evil?

EXACTLY

This cannot be repeated enough. You can't understand where this is headed if you don't understand the role of the concept of "evil" in the thinking of extremists.

349 FQ Kafir  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:57:28pm

Hearing now that the shooter likely had no military service.

350 The Shadow Do  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:57:54pm

re: #345 jaunte

And there you have it. Sadly.

351 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:57:56pm

re: #321 Stanley Sea

I hate this shit.

I'm really pissed he's dead. RIP, Judge Roll. Your poor family.

Target or not, whatever. These are people serving their fucking country. gah

Threatening a judge is scummy. Threatening anyone is pretty scummy, but threatening a judge because you think he won't rule your way is pretty much saying "Screw the rule of law."

352 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:58:15pm

Don't tell me there aren't any heroes left.
From the previous link:

The weapon “sounded like a handgun.” He did not hear the shooter speak while firing; from behind a pillar, Villec heard someone cry, “Get down.” Villec did not see two men tackle the gunman, though spoke with one of the men afterward. That tackler, he said, was next in line to greet Giffords.
353 McSpiff  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:58:36pm

re: #351 SanFranciscoZionist

Threatening a judge is scummy. Threatening anyone is pretty scummy, but threatening a judge because you think he won't rule your way is pretty much saying "Screw the rule of law."

See: The IRA and the Mob.

354 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:59:17pm

re: #344 Stanley Sea

owillis

Cons who see politics in everything suddenly become apolitical when their rhetoric bcomes a liability

Does that guy (owillis) still say Charles is a racist?

355 sagehen  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:00:06pm

re: #18 Walter L. Newton

Looks like the gunman got one of his own...

John McCarthy Roll

"Roll was nominated by President George H.W. Bush on September 23, 1991 to a seat on the United States District Court for the District of Arizona that had been vacated by Alfred C. Marquez. He was confirmed by the United States Senate on November 22, 1991, and received his commission on November 25, 1991. He served as chief judge from 2006 until his death in 2011.[1]"

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]


Nah, the right wing hated Judge Roll.

In February, when U.S. District Judge John Roll presided over a $32 million civil-rights lawsuit filed by illegal immigrants against an Arizona rancher, the Marshals Service was anticipating the fallout.

When Roll ruled the case could go forward, Gonzales said talk-radio shows cranked up the controversy and spurred audiences into making threats.

In one afternoon, Roll logged more than 200 phone calls. Callers threatened the judge and his family. They posted personal information about Roll online.

"They said, 'We should kill him. He should be dead,' " Gonzales said.

356 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:00:54pm

re: #334 Amory Blaine

Do you have a link for that?

[Link: www.azcentral.com...]

358 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:01:37pm

re: #349 FQ Kafir

Hearing now that the shooter likely had no military service.

I don't know why, but that's something of a relief.

359 Stanghazi  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:01:43pm

re: #354 wrenchwench

Does that guy (owillis) still say Charles is a racist?

ooh, I don't know. Had no idea.

360 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:02:12pm

re: #358 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know why, but that's something of a relief.

Probably because it means the military is smart enough to keep nut jobs like this guy out...

361 Obdicut  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:02:31pm

re: #358 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know why, but that's something of a relief.

My nightmare scenario was that he was a war vet with brain damage. I'm very glad that doesn't look to be anywhere close to reality.

362 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:02:34pm

re: #338 jamesfirecat

The sad thing is that we... or at least somebody had better figure this guy out so that we can be ready for the inevitable time when someone tries to follow in his footsteps.

We obviously don't have enough info to make decisive conclusions now but we can at least generate hypothesises...

hypothesis = he was crazy.

363 William of Orange  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:02:52pm

What a load of crap! Lougner aggitated that he was given a bible? So that's a reason to shoot a Jew?

Personally, I think all is connected to 700 dead birds falling out of the sky in Arkansas....

364 Buck  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:04:06pm

re: #76 researchok

As far as I am concerned, his 'politics' were only there to feed his insanity- a costume, if you will.

I could care less if he claimed left or right affiliations. His politics have little to do with his insanity.

And we don't yet know who the target might have been. Everyone is assuming Gifford, and that the Judge was collateral. I have not heard that it could not be the other way around.

The shooter has views form both sides of the crazy. This means the Left will only see see the views that might identify him as right. And the Right will do the opposite, only consider his leftist views as relevant.

365 The Shadow Do  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:04:10pm

re: #362 Aceofwhat?

hypothesis = he was crazy.

Hypothesis = son of a bitch

366 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:04:23pm

re: #363 William of Orange

What a load of crap! Lougner aggitated that he was given a bible? So that's a reason to shoot a Jew?

Personally, I think all is connected to 700 dead birds falling out of the sky in Arkansas...

As we all know, the birds/fish were killed by liberalism. /

367 What, me worry?  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:04:57pm

re: #279 b_sharp

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is a great book, but forming your political belief system from a Science fiction book is foolish.

Or religion, but who am I to judge :p

368 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:05:04pm

re: #362 Aceofwhat?

hypothesis = he was crazy.

CHASE
My opinion. This letter writer is a
total wacko.

BRUCE
Wacko? That a technical term?

CHASE
Patient apparently suffers from
acute obsessional syndrome with
potential homicidal styles. Work
better for you?

BRUCE
So what you're saying, this guy's a
total wacko, right?

CHASE
(a slight smile)
Exactly.

370 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:05:25pm

re: #364 Buck

And we don't yet know who the target might have been. Everyone is assuming Gifford, and that the Judge was collateral. I have not heard that it could not be the other way around.

The shooter has views form both sides of the crazy. This means the Left will only see see the views that might identify him as right. And the Right will do the opposite, only consider his leftist views as relevant.

No, Buck. Just.... no.

This guy isn't just crazy, he was also encouraged by people in positions of authority.

371 b_Snark  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:05:56pm

re: #365 The Shadow Do


re: #362 Aceofwhat?

hypothesis = he was crazy.


Hypothesis = son of a bitch

Hypothesis = he was a crazy son of a bitch.

372 Lidane  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:06:13pm

re: #364 Buck

I'm pretty sure shooting a member of Congress in the head at point blank range makes her the primary target.

373 b_Snark  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:06:31pm

re: #367 marjoriemoon

Or religion, but who am I to judge :p

L. Ron, is that you?

374 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:06:49pm
...U.S. Rep. Raul Grijalva, Giffords' seatmate from Southern Arizona, said, "It's horrific. It's heartbreaking. It's very frightening. I hope she comes out of it. This is not what public service is all about."

The heated rhetoric and civil discord creates an environment for something like this to happen, he said.

He lamented a series of incidents demonstrating the buildup that leads to something like this, including an envelope of white powder sent to his Tucson office as well as a shot fired at his Yuma office.

"Gabby's contributions were all in the future. Her career was all in the future."

Washington, D.C., authorities have urged his staff to "stay put."

His family in Tucson now has security, but he doesn't know yet whether he will have a Secret Service detail in the future....

That's from near the end of this article.

375 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:07:08pm

re: #364 Buck

And we don't yet know who the target might have been. Everyone is assuming Gifford, and that the Judge was collateral. I have not heard that it could not be the other way around.

The shooter has views form both sides of the crazy. This means the Left will only see see the views that might identify him as right. And the Right will do the opposite, only consider his leftist views as relevant.

Your MBF argument is false.

We're seeing a pretty clear picture that this guy was a liberterian.

This gave him some views that were technically socially liberal but really had more to do with cutting the governments power than believing that people should be allowed to smoke pot or gays should be treated just like everyone else as a matter of principle.

What proof do you have that he was crazy on the left?

376 Lidane  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:07:15pm

re: #370 Fozzie Bear

No, Buck. Just... no.

This guy isn't just crazy, he was also encouraged by people in positions of authority.

Yeah, this.

377 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:07:40pm

re: #372 Lidane

I'm pretty sure shooting a member of Congress in the head at point blank range makes her the primary target.

Yeah maybe he was aiming for the bag boy for crushing his eggs.

378 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:07:43pm

re: #364 Buck

Read the eyewitness account in post 347.

379 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:08:40pm

I see Drudgereport has Infowars linked up at the very top of the page right now, the line about mind control…

380 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:09:13pm

re: #368 jamesfirecat

nicely done

381 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:09:54pm

re: #373 b_sharp

L. Ron, is that you?

someone needs an audit...

382 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:09:58pm

re: #364 Buck

The judge was not expected to be there. He dropped by after church to say hello to Giffords.

383 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:10:03pm

re: #375 jamesfirecat

What proof do you have that he was crazy on the left?

Well, he was violent, insane, and dangerous.

Liberals are violent, insane, and dangerous.

... you decide.

384 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:11:11pm

re: #364 Buck

And we don't yet know who the target might have been. Everyone is assuming Gifford, and that the Judge was collateral. I have not heard that it could not be the other way around.

The shooter has views form both sides of the crazy. This means the Left will only see see the views that might identify him as right. And the Right will do the opposite, only consider his leftist views as relevant.

He was a right wing conservative... fueled by Glenn BEck, Rush Limbaugh and healthy does of Alex Jones and InfoWars... you know that...

385 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:11:29pm

re: #380 Aceofwhat?

nicely done

Thanks, contrary to some people's opinion I actually think Forever was a pretty darn good movie... or at least a pretty darn enjoyable movie.

386 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:11:35pm

alrighty, i made ribeye and spring salads for the family. time to reap what i've sowed.

peace to you all if i don't log back on tonight, and may God comfort the survivors and the families of the victims.

387 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:12:09pm

re: #383 Renaissance_Man

Well, he was violent, insane, and dangerous.

Liberals are violent, insane, and dangerous.

... you decide.

Nope... you're right... liberals are wimps.

388 The Shadow Do  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:12:35pm

re: #371 b_sharp

Hypothesis = he was a crazy son of a bitch.

With acute Paulian tendencies...

389 What, me worry?  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:13:03pm

re: #338 jamesfirecat

The sad thing is that we... or at least somebody had better figure this guy out so that we can be ready for the inevitable time when someone tries to follow in his footsteps.

We obviously don't have enough info to make decisive conclusions now but we can at least generate hypothesises...

We can start by not allowing guns at public rallies. But far be it from me to infringe on someone's constitutional right to kill someone.

390 Buck  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:13:17pm

re: #370 Fozzie Bear

No, Buck. Just... no.

This guy isn't just crazy, he was also encouraged by people in positions of authority.

Well that is your opinion. I will wait and see if he even mentions the tea party or any other reason.

Sometimes crazy is just that.

I just know that in ALL of the tea party rallies there was never any rioting or violence. And at so many of the rallies in Europe, that have a similar theme (anti government, no new taxes) there has been so much violence.

391 Obdicut  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:13:45pm

re: #390 Buck

Join us in the next thread, Buck.

392 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:14:11pm

re: #391 Obdicut

Join us in the next thread, Buck.

If you dare, BWAH-HA-HA!

393 What, me worry?  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:14:39pm

re: #345 jaunte

Representative Gabrielle Giffords on Violent Political Rhetoric, March 2010

I'm glad she addressed it. Good for her.

Now that Palin has expressed her utmost sympathy, you think she'll apologize for rallying her troops?

394 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:14:50pm

re: #389 marjoriemoon

We can start by not allowing guns at public rallies. But far be it from me to infringe on someone's constitutional right to kill someone.

You're so right... because if we outlaw guns at public rallies, then someone who is intent on using a gun to do massive damage to human life... and who is crazy enough to pull it off... won't be able to do it.

395 Buck  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:14:54pm

re: #384 Walter L. Newton

He was a right wing conservative... fueled by Glenn BEck, Rush Limbaugh and healthy does of Alex Jones and InfoWars... you know that...

How do you know that? You mention a bunch of book authors, and this guy had a favorite book list.... did you see any of those guys on his list?

396 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:15:37pm

re: #395 Buck

How do you know that? You mention a bunch of book authors, and this guy had a favorite book list... did you see any of those guys on his list?

All the evidence you need is right in this thread. Seek and yea shall find.

397 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:16:13pm

re: #394 Walter L. Newton

You're so right... because if we outlaw guns at public rallies, then someone who is intent on using a gun to do massive damage to human life... and who is crazy enough to pull it off... won't be able to do it.

Snark aside, you do see how it's a bad idea to encourage the merging of threats of violence and politics, don't you?

398 Lidane  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:16:28pm

re: #395 Buck

How do you know that? You mention a bunch of book authors, and this guy had a favorite book list... did you see any of those guys on his list?

Reading is your friend. Check this thread and the one before it. Plenty of info is out there.

399 jaunte  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:16:42pm

re: #393 marjoriemoon

No, I think that would be construed as an admission that there was a connection between her rhetoric and today's shooting, and she won't admit that.

400 What, me worry?  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:16:43pm

re: #347 Floral Giraffe

Witness: Gunman 'was going for the congresswoman'

[Link: azstarnet.com...]

Wow. All I can say is wow. I had a shiver go up my spine reading that.

401 FQ Kafir  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:17:06pm

Looks like we're gonna get to know one of the shooter's acquaintances soon. She's the one who said the shooter was a lefty in 2007.

I can't manage all these media requests & @ replies. Too much too fast, can't keep up.
less than 5 seconds ago via Twitter for iPhone

http://twitter.com/caitieparker

402 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:17:35pm

re: #397 Fozzie Bear

Snark aside, you do see how it's a bad idea to encourage the merging of threats of violence and politics, don't you?

Have you seen anything I've said to the contrary? Or are you just trolling for a little early evening recreation?

403 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:18:24pm

re: #402 Walter L. Newton

Have you seen anything I've said to the contrary? Or are you just trolling for a little early evening recreation?

It's hard to tell what you are trying to say when you are riding the MBF through the sky.

404 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:18:49pm

re: #403 Fozzie Bear

It's hard to tell what you are trying to say when you are riding the MBF through the sky.

Then pay attention... if you can.

405 What, me worry?  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:19:10pm

re: #352 Floral Giraffe

Don't tell me there aren't any heroes left.
From the previous link:

I hope they honor them in some way. They truly deserve it.

And speaking of deserving, they have the death penalty in Arizona. I'm not typically for the death penalty, but I would have no problem getting behind it here.

406 What, me worry?  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:19:56pm

re: #357 palomino

But is it likely that the shooter even knew who he was?

That's what I was thinking. He seemed to have one target in mind, but we don't know.

407 sagehen  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:21:19pm

re: #394 Walter L. Newton

You're so right... because if we outlaw guns at public rallies, then someone who is intent on using a gun to do massive damage to human life... and who is crazy enough to pull it off... won't be able to do it.

If we outlaw guns at public rallies, then somebody spotted with a gun can be asked to leave, forcibly removed if he refuses. Somebody bringing a gun to cause trouble won't be so difficult to tell apart from hundreds of people carrying guns for no particular reason.

Seatbelts and airbags don't prevent there ever being any car wreck fatalities, but it sure reduces the numbers.

408 What, me worry?  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:21:43pm

re: #363 William of Orange

What a load of crap! Lougner aggitated that he was given a bible? So that's a reason to shoot a Jew?

Personally, I think all is connected to 700 dead birds falling out of the sky in Arkansas...

Anti-Semite. Has the been floated yet? Actually, it hadn't occurred to me. I mean, I've known she's Jewish! Lots of Jew haters in AZ, too.

409 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:21:48pm

re: #401 FQ Kafir

Looks like we're gonna get to know one of the shooter's acquaintances soon. She's the one who said the shooter was a lefty in 2007.

http://twitter.com/caitieparker

I don't think she's going to pan out as a source. She's marketing herself.

410 What, me worry?  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:22:24pm

re: #373 b_sharp

L. Ron, is that you?

I was just thinking. I read a hellofa lot slower than SFZ LOL

411 What, me worry?  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:22:48pm

re: #375 jamesfirecat

Your MBF argument is false.

We're seeing a pretty clear picture that this guy was a liberterian.

This gave him some views that were technically socially liberal but really had more to do with cutting the governments power than believing that people should be allowed to smoke pot or gays should be treated just like everyone else as a matter of principle.

What proof do you have that he was crazy on the left?

I'm sorry... what is MBF?

412 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:24:07pm

re: #411 marjoriemoon

I'm sorry... what is MBF?

I just solved that one myself. Magical Balance Fairy.

413 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:24:23pm

re: #407 sagehen

If we outlaw guns at public rallies, then somebody spotted with a gun can be asked to leave, forcibly removed if he refuses. Somebody bringing a gun to cause trouble won't be so difficult to tell apart from hundreds of people carrying guns for no particular reason.

Seatbelts and airbags don't prevent there ever being any car wreck fatalities, but it sure reduces the numbers.

You are so right... I never thought of that. I would have thought, given my evil criminal mind as it is, if guns were outlawed at rallies, that if it were me, I don't think I would entrench myself into a crowd, proudly displaying my weapon for all those nosey people to see and then start asking me annoying questions.

Someone HIDING a gun wouldn't be so difficult to NOT see in a crowd.

Think... think...

414 b_Snark  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:28:13pm

re: #389 marjoriemoon

We can start by not allowing guns at public rallies. But far be it from me to infringe on someone's constitutional right to kill someone.

If everyone had been packing, he would have only killed half as many people.

///

415 b_Snark  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:29:41pm

re: #394 Walter L. Newton

You're so right... because if we outlaw guns at public rallies, then someone who is intent on using a gun to do massive damage to human life... and who is crazy enough to pull it off... won't be able to do it.

Tell me how effective having a gun in your holster is against a sniper.

416 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 4:33:29pm

re: #415 b_sharp

Tell me how effective having a gun in your holster is against a sniper.

Er... I think you missed my sarcasm. Play again?

417 Buck  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 5:24:19pm

re: #398 Lidane

Reading is your friend. Check this thread and the one before it. Plenty of info is out there.

plenty of speculation and guessing...
no information on this subjet

418 theheat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 5:31:24pm

Sarah, and every hysterical, bible thumping, shit fucking stupid faux feminist cow like her, are dragging the mindless sheep like them back to the dark ages. Church, guns, being knocked up, raping Mother Nature to make a buck - this is their utopia. People that vote for them - this is what they're voting for. Oh yes it is.

And to achieve those medieval faux feminist goals, shit fucking stupid cows like Sarah and her ilk are happy to advocate violence, and they do. Don't think for a second this will deter them going over the top and literally putting people in their sights in the future. They want this. This is their almost-as-good-as-Armageddon fundie wet dream; citizen outrage with guns.

Provokers like Sarah are stupid, evil, and dangerous. It's high time these shrieking hyenas got kicked to the curb and called out for what they are.

419 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 5:32:36pm

re: #417 Buck

plenty of speculation and guessing...
no information on this subjet

Just like you as of yet have provided us with no information on why you believe this person had "liberal beliefs" could claim the person to have had...

420 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 5:43:39pm

re: #345 jaunte

Good Lord.

421 Buck  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 5:44:27pm

re: #419 jamesfirecat

Just like you as of yet have provided us with no information on why you believe this person had "liberal beliefs" could claim the person to have had...

really? I think I have said we should wait, and that he was just crazy. But the communist manifesto seems a little lefty... no?

BUT when someone says he read books and was influenced by people, without any evidence... I ask questions..

422 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 5:57:18pm

re: #421 Buck

really? I think I have said we should wait, and that he was just crazy. But the communist manifesto seems a little lefty... no?

BUT when someone says he read books and was influenced by people, without any evidence... I ask questions..

So you have one book... against him giving a rant that is full of classic Liberterian material...

Your case leaves much to be desired.

423 Buck  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 6:02:11pm

re: #422 jamesfirecat

So you have one book... against him giving a rant that is full of classic Liberterian material...

Your case leaves much to be desired.

My point is (once again) that he has views from both sides of the political spectrum. That he has much in common with the far left and extreme right. That he CAN'T be defined that way.

That he is probably just crazy.

I will add that you will discount anything that is common to the left. You will ignore it, and the only evidence you will accept is what you need to hear in order to make your case.

424 Peter Kaufman  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 6:04:23pm

Palin can scrub and scrub. It's not going to come off.

425 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 6:05:16pm

re: #423 Buck

My point is (once again) that he has views from both sides of the political spectrum. That he has much in common with the far left and extreme right. That he CAN'T be defined that way.

That he is probably just crazy.

I will add that you will discount anything that is common to the left. You will ignore it, and the only evidence you will accept is what you need to hear in order to make your case.

I've heard he likes Mein Kamf and I heard he like the Communist Manifesto, these two cancel each other out, so lets look at what he argued for in his videos, which was a gold standard, something that has NOTHING to do with the left.

That said tell you what, lets just put this argument on hold and we'll just see what happens, I feel confident that the further his trial proceeds the more will find out about his motivations and we'll see who gets to say "I told you so" to who...

426 fat.elvis  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 6:09:41pm

So, do I get dinged down for suggesting this asshole appears to be a nonpartisan, regular ol' nutjob?

427 jaunte  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 6:11:21pm

re: #426 fat.elvis

This is the abuse thread. If you want argument it's one door up.

428 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 6:12:37pm

re: #426 fat.elvis

So, do I get dinged down for suggesting this asshole appears to be a nonpartisan, regular ol' nutjob?

NOBODY CARES!

NOBODY CARES!

NOBODY... NOBODY... NOBODY CARES!

429 Buck  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 6:13:29pm

re: #425 jamesfirecat

I've heard he likes Mein Kamf and I heard he like the Communist Manifesto, these two cancel each other out, so lets look at what he argued for in his videos, which was a gold standard, something that has NOTHING to do with the left.

That said tell you what, lets just put this argument on hold and we'll just see what happens, I feel confident that the further his trial proceeds the more will find out about his motivations and we'll see who gets to say "I told you so" to who...

I say he has views and characteristics from both sides of the extreme left and right, and you say that cancels each other out?

Are you serious?

A person who knew him says she thought he was "left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy. " I suppose those cancel each other out....you are just going to only see the one side, and ignore the rest.

430 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 6:17:06pm

re: #429 Buck

I say he has views and characteristics from both sides of the extreme left and right, and you say that cancels each other out?

Are you serious?

A person who knew him says she thought he was "left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy. " I suppose those cancel each other out...you are just going to only see the one side, and ignore the rest.

The person who said he was a liberal, last saw him in 2007.

If he is a right wing liberterian type he may have seemed liberal because he had a huge bone to pick with Bush' policies for expanding the government.

Or his political stances may have changed over the last five years.

There isn't enough info to cast a decisive decision one way or another yet. Do you agree with me on that Buck?

431 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 6:18:30pm

re: #424 petercow

"Out damn spot!"

432 Buck  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 6:20:44pm

re: #375 jamesfirecat

Your MBF argument is false

{snip}........ really had more to do with cutting the governments power than believing that people should be allowed to smoke pot or gays should be treated just like everyone else as a matter of principle.

He was arrested previously for smoking pot.....

How do you ignore that?

433 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 6:22:03pm

re: #432 Buck

He was arrested previously for smoking pot...

How do you ignore that?

Is your argument now that you can't smoke pot unless your a liberal?

434 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 6:22:13pm

re: #432 Buck

He was arrested previously for smoking pot...

How do you ignore that?

What does his smoking pot prove exactly?

435 Buck  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 6:23:08pm

re: #434 jamesfirecat

What does his smoking pot prove exactly?

YOU brought it up!

You said it....

436 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 6:27:09pm

re: #432 Buck

He was arrested previously for smoking pot...

How do you ignore that?

Also Buck as continuing this argument is only going to hurt my chances of someday having a 2.0 or higher Karma Per Post ratio I think I'll make my closing arguments now.

This guy was clearly not right in the head.

We don't have enough evidence one way or another to make a firm conclusion.

You are right that as a partisan liberal I'll try and construct a case that proves this guy was a conservative crazy. I don't intend to ignore evidence though I do intend to try and construct a case that allows this evidence to exist without altering the end point of how this guy was a conservatism crazy.

I may be wrong.

I may be right.

The strength of my argument will be evaluated by the other posters on LGF, and how correct it is will be born out by the facts we discover as we move further into this guys case.

Say what you will at this point Buck....

437 Jadespring  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 6:36:13pm

Hey all.

A few weeks before Christmas my computer konked it big...blue screens of death all over the place. (hence my disapearance) Had to send it to the hospital and wait to be able to afford to spring it which will hopefully occur next week. So last week I finally scrounged this old clunker which I think was built in the pioneer age. Using the internet is incredibly painful. Even emails are a chore.

So anyways I heard about this on the radio on the way home and my first thought was I need to check out LGF no matter how painful it is. They'll be covering it and be the best place where info of what's going on is collected because surfing is out of the question. Took about 15 mins and a couple of refreshes to get the site up but I'm here! (and hopefully can post).

First off, Hi!
Second, I'm really, really sorry this has happened and feel great empathy for those directly involved and all the possible ramifications for your country. This is bad, no matter where this guys politics are. Just plain BAD.
Thirdly, thanks for being place, a sane place where someone as net deficient as I am right now and get a good idea of everything that's going on. Everyone here rocks.

(okay now I'm hitting post....please, please work.....)

438 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 6:38:30pm

re: #435 Buck

We could argue about whether the guy was right or left wing, but he was filled with anti-government sentiment and most anti-government talk these days does come from the right. People on the left aren't advocating "second amendment remedies". No possible Democratic nominee for president had a map with crosshairs on it targeting members of Congress.

Are you truly surprised that something like this happened? Are you surprised that a government official was targeted like this? Are you surprised it was a Democrat? Are you surprised that it happened in Arizona? The current angry climate, mostly fomented by the right, makes this horrible incident unsurprising. Even Congresswoman Giffords warned about something like this happening.

[Link: andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com...]

Giffords warned of this:

"They really need to realize that the rhetoric and firing people up, and, you know, even things for example, we're on Sarah Palin's targeted list, but the thing is, that the way that she has it depicted has the crosshairs of a gunsight over our district. When people do that, you gotta realize there's consequences to that action."

The poor woman practically foresaw her own attempted murder. The right has a serious problem and it won't change or get solved if responsible people on the right keep ignoring it.

439 WarBicycle  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 7:05:51pm

Hey Charles
Looks like the Democrats also used gunsight/gargets maps.

[Link: www.verumserum.com...]

440 jamesfirecat  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 7:07:07pm

re: #439 WarBicycle

Hey Charles
Looks like the Democrats also used gunsight/gargets maps.

[Link: www.verumserum.com...]

This will matter just as soon as Republicans start getting shot...

441 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 7:12:34pm

re: #439 WarBicycle

So which GOP politician got shot along with several other people, including a 9 year old? And what Democratic politician spoke of "second amendment remedies"?

Also, that first map was targets on states, not people.

Nice try though.

442 Gus  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 7:18:30pm

re: #439 WarBicycle

So if there's no problem than why is their website down and they're currently scrubbing all traces of it?

443 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 8:02:24pm

re: #439 WarBicycle

Hey Charles
Looks like the Democrats also used gunsight/gargets maps.

[Link: www.verumserum.com...]

That map was targeting STATES, not PEOPLE. And it used targets as graphical icons, not crosshairs.

444 WarBicycle  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 8:09:50pm

Looks like KOS used it as well.


Image: screen-shot-2011-01-08-at-3-05-33-pm.png

445 Gus  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 8:13:28pm

re: #444 WarBicycle

Whoop–de–do!

446 Gus  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 8:16:34pm

That's quite a case you building there WB.

447 ClaudeMonet  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 8:51:05pm

re: #173 Fozzie Bear

Then I would STILL blame people who encourage political violence, on any side.

Right now, it's the Palins, Bachmanns, and Angles doing it. They need to be made to wear this, eat this, and generally be stained forever with it. They fucking own this now, because they literally asked for it.

Have you noticed that the most outlandish "take 'em out" rhetoric seems to be coming from some of the GOP's few prominent females? I'm not sure what to make of it, but it's food for thought.

I hope that when Ms. Giffords returns to the House, she walks right up to Bachmann and bitch-slaps the living daylights out of her. And I'd give a lot of money to see Ms. Giffords pound the stuffing out of Palin, maybe even break her designer glasses.

448 ClaudeMonet  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 9:00:49pm

re: #225 KayInMaine

That's how I see it too! Though my mind and heart believe this shooter is a righty, but if it's found out that he's truly a lefty, I will be just as pissed off because violence begets violence and it never solves anything!

"Violence never solves anything". Tell that to the dodo, the Carolina parakeet, the passenger pigeon, and the citizens of Carthage (I'm paraphrasing Heinlein's Starship Troopers). It almost never settles anything WELL, but it does settle many issues. In this case, giving this creep the needle will indeed solve an issue.

I don't think this guy is a righty or a lefty. His ramblings seem to come from many different directions. I think he's just insane.

449 ClaudeMonet  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 9:07:45pm

re: #244 jamesfirecat

"TJIC is an anarcho-capitalist.

TJIC thinks that if there’s a better novel than _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, he hasn’t seen it yet.

TJIC thinks that the Constitution is a great document, and it’s a shame that noone uses it anymore."

You know what's funny? A guy who is a civilian defense contractor said that the military already has plans for how to crush an uprising like the one in the Moon is a Harsh Mistress...

I love The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, but that doesn't mean I'm a nutty anarcho-capitalist like TJIC. I take it for what it is--fiction, designed to entertain and perhaps make us think a little.

BTW, the military has "game plans' for just about anything anyone can imagine. It's a matter of preparedness, not one of immediate anticipation.

450 ClaudeMonet  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 9:14:35pm

re: #271 Stanley Sea

Why is my mind traveling to the History Channel's 1968 show.

Sorry, this has hit me hard. We've been writing about it all these months. We've objected all along the way.

The demagoguery, dog whistles, hate speech. We've been watching, and damn today I feel it came home.

Perhaps it's because I was 12 for most of 1968 and I'm 55 now, but I don't see 2010 as being nearly as perilous as '68. There's violence both at home and abroad, but not nearly as much as then, and I don't see a political party as close to breaking apart now as the Democrats of 1968. All times are perilous times, the current time more perilous than usual, but IMO it's not nearly as close to anarchy.

Again, this may be due to age, but that's how I see it.

451 ClaudeMonet  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 9:20:40pm

re: #349 FQ Kafir

Hearing now that the shooter likely had no military service.

He tried to enlist but was rejected. Contrary to rumor, the military does have standards, particularly when it comes to the mental stability of people it will train in the use of deadly force.

452 ClaudeMonet  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 9:28:31pm

re: #427 jaunte

Upding for the Monty Python reference.

re: #437 Jadespring

Welcome back!

453 funky chicken  Sat, Jan 8, 2011 10:54:25pm

re: #63 Shiplord Kirel

re: #27 tradewind

The Paulian/Alex Jones right often finds common ground with the extreme left, especially at a personal level where such things as drug laws and attitudes toward authority come into play. The defining characteristic of Paulian-Jones conspiracism, however, is the emphasis on monetary policy and private property rights, both of which are solidly right wing positions.

Yup.

454 im_gumby_damnit  Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:15:43am

No idea (yet) whether this shooter was right wing, left wing, or whatever. Nonetheless, it was totally irresponsible of Sarah Palin to put cross-hairs on her political targets in Congress. She was criticized for this at the time she posted this map, but left it up until now. This criticism is valid regardless of whether there is any connection to this shooting or not.

455 Yashmak  Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:25:53am

re: #443 Fozzie Bear

That map was targeting STATES, not PEOPLE. And it used targets as graphical icons, not crosshairs.

Kinda splitting hairs there. Is there really that big a difference between targets and crosshairs? Both imply the same thing. Think the Democratic Leadership Committee or the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee took down their similar maps? It's irresponsible regardless whom put up such maps.

I've argued against attempts by the right to paint folks who were obviously deranged as 'leftists' when they've committed violent acts, and here we have what is pretty obviously the reverse. This guy was nuts. . and his friends and neighbors have provided ample evidence (albeit mostly anecdotal at this point) to make that clear. Trying to associate him with one political party or the other is an attempt to marginalize one group of voters or another, on the basis of the actions of a madman.

456 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:38:49am

re: #455 Yashmak

Kinda splitting hairs there. Is there really that big a difference between targets and crosshairs? Both imply the same thing. Think the Democratic Leadership Committee or the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee took down their similar maps? It's irresponsible regardless whom put up such maps.

Excuse me, are you gonna seriously argue that this map:

Image: DLC-Targeting-map.gif

Is as creepy as this map:

Image: 1-8-201111-45-48AM.jpg

457 Yashmak  Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:32:58am

re: #456 Sergey Romanov

Are you gonna argue that they're not ALL creepy? Hell, the DCCC map referred to "targeted Republicans". But realistically, it's all just reactionary show now. . . an attempt to make political hay out of the actions of a loon. Seriously, we're talking about a guy whose apparent problem wit politicians was that "words mean nothing". I sincerly doubt he trusted any of them, conservative OR liberal.


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