We have our winner in the “Most Disgusting Wingnut Blog of the Day” contest, and it’s not surprising that it originates with the dumbest blogger on the web, Jim “Dim” Hoft, posted at the website of race-baiting smear artist Andrew Breitbart: Breaking: Democrats Plotted to Blame Tea Party for Slaughter.
UPDATE at 1/9/11 9:10:24 pm:
And the runner-up: Glenn Reynolds, who says Sarah Palin is the real victim.
1 |
albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:26:35pm |
what a dope...you have to be on the run to cook up a scheme this irrational
| 2 |
HappyWarrior Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:27:32pm |
Yes, Jim we "plotted" to blame the Tea Party for this. Maybe just maybe when Tea Party supported candidates start talking about things like "2nd amendment" solutions, we get a little upset. Screw Hoft and the bullshit horse he rides on.
| 3 |
recusancy Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:28:29pm |
Is that the guy who fantasized about beating up black kids on the train in DC?
| 4 |
Tigger2 Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:28:36pm |
Another reason I'm done with the G.O.P., I cant stand all the lying they do.
| 5 |
Kronocide Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:29:15pm |
I'd laugh because it's so moronically stupid but the subject is not funny.
| 6 |
HappyWarrior Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:29:17pm |
re: #3 recusancy
Is that the guy who fantasized about beating up black kids on the train in DC?
that was Dan Riehl I believe. Nice guy huh.
| 7 |
Kragar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:29:23pm |
I love anonymous sources only ID'd by political party.
| 8 |
jaunte Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:30:18pm |
biggovernment commenter doubles down on wishful thinking:
Now that the shooter has been established to be a LeftWing nut, the MSM will quickly lose interest in the story. Very much like the crazy leftist moron who flew his plane into an IRS building a few months ago and killed a man in the process. Not much about after the first two days.
| 9 |
albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:30:19pm |
re: #7 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
I love anonymous sources only ID'd by political party.
Source A, R says....
| 10 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:30:51pm |
I've asked this before, and I'll ask again -- how in the hell does Hoft get through the days without hurting himself or wearing a crash helmet?
| 11 |
webevintage Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:30:58pm |
Last few bleats from AndrewBreitbart on Twitter.
LEFT WAR ROOM STRATEGY: Throw all at TeaParty/Palin blame - HOPE IT WORKS. If fails, DOUBLE DOWN. It's failing again. Now what?
and
Is there anyone on left - say Podesta - who'd be willing to debate VIOLENT RHETORIC - ANTI-BUSH, ANTI-WAR YEARS vs. TEA PARTY?
And my favorite:
AndrewBreitbart
Left can never see its inherent blatant present hypocrisy: Self-righteous idjuts are creating H8ful rhetoric about @SarahPalinUSA.
Poor Sarah...always the victim.
I guess they have all gotten their talking points.
Why can't they say that the hate needs to end, that things have go to far?
| 13 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:32:08pm |
You know, it would be completely stupid for the President to come out and try to "pin" this on anybody or anything.
There are multiple agencies investigating this thing, collecting evidence, etc., and the President does not control them.
They will collect evidence, draw their conclusions, issue their reports, and if things don't match what the President has said, well, then the President looks ridiculous.
No President in his right mind would "pin" an incident such as this on anybody. If he was wrong, it's just too easy for the truth to get out.
| 14 |
HappyWarrior Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:32:27pm |
re: #11 webevintage
Last few bleats from AndrewBreitbart on Twitter.
LEFT WAR ROOM STRATEGY: Throw all at TeaParty/Palin blame - HOPE IT WORKS. If fails, DOUBLE DOWN. It's failing again. Now what?
and
Is there anyone on left - say Podesta - who'd be willing to debate VIOLENT RHETORIC - ANTI-BUSH, ANTI-WAR YEARS vs. TEA PARTY?And my favorite:
AndrewBreitbart
Left can never see its inherent blatant present hypocrisy: Self-righteous idjuts are creating H8ful rhetoric about @SarahPalinUSA.Poor Sarah...always the victim.
I guess they have all gotten their talking points.
Why can't they say that the hate needs to end, that things have go to far?
Andrew Breitbart talking about hateful rhetoric, boy and just when you think you've seen it all :)
| 15 |
palomino Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:32:44pm |
How does Hoft reach the conclusion that the shooter was pro-Marxist? Because he liked a certain book? He also liked Mein Kampf.
Also the operative didn't actually say that Dems plotted to blame the TP for anything. He simply said they should do that going forward, the same way Clinton blamed OKC on the far right elements of talk radio.
| 16 |
albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:34:51pm |
| 17 |
Varek Raith Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:34:58pm |
re: #15 palomino
How does Hoft reach the conclusion that the shooter was pro-Marxist? Because he liked a certain book? He also liked Mein Kampf.
Also the operative didn't actually say that Dems plotted to blame the TP for anything. He simply said they should do that going forward, the same way Clinton blamed OKC on the far right elements of talk radio.
One of my favorite books is I, Robot.
Therefore, I'm a robot.
Sweet.
| 18 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:35:08pm |
re: #11 webevintage
Andrew Breitbart accusing anyone of throwing everything they can at the wall and hoping it sticks is hilarious.
I'd get mad about his delusional rants, but I'm too busy laughing at his total lack of self-awareness and cognitive dissonance.
| 19 |
Kragar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:37:05pm |
re: #17 Varek Raith
One of my favorite books is I, Robot.
Therefore, I'm a robot.
Sweet.
I read Starship Troopers.
Therefore, I am a psychic Doogie Howser.
| 20 |
Mocking Jay Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:37:34pm |
re: #17 Varek Raith
One of my favorite books is I, Robot.
Therefore, I'm a robot.
Sweet.
I've always suspected as much.
| 21 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:38:00pm |
| 22 |
recusancy Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:39:32pm |
re: #21 SanFranciscoZionist
No, they're pretty legit.
They aren't right or left but they are whores and will write anything to get page views.
| 23 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:40:21pm |
I can't wait to see what lunacy Breibart puts out on Twitter in response to this one. The spazz-out should be epic.
| 24 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:40:40pm |
re: #22 recusancy
They aren't right or left but they are whores and will write anything to get page views.
That could well be true. But not wingnutty.
| 25 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:40:57pm |
The article on the Big Government site links to the source of that excerpt... which is at Politico, and the article is by By JONATHAN MARTIN & BEN SMITH & ALEXANDER BURNS.
Who are these three "reporters" and how can they post such material without any source. This is not just a passing remark...
One veteran Democratic operative, who blames overheated rhetoric for the shooting, said President Barack Obama should carefully but forcefully do what his predecessor did.
“They need to deftly pin this on the tea partiers,” said the Democrat. “Just like the Clinton White House deftly pinned the Oklahoma City bombing on the militia and anti-government people.”
Another Democratic strategist said the similarity is that Tucson and Oklahoma City both “take place in a climate of bitter and virulent rhetoric against the government and Democrats.”
That's a rather pointed statement to make without any proof as to who said it. And then this Jim Hoft runs with it, with no apparent concern for the source of the statement either.
My cat could do better journalism than this.
| 26 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:42:04pm |
| 27 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:42:36pm |
More useless pablum from Hoft. I will say this though. The Democrats better be darn careful about pinning this solely on the Tea Party. That is the few that choose to do so. It will backfire to a certain extent.
| 28 |
Daniel Ballard Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:42:40pm |
re: #13 reine.de.tout
I recall some awful mass shootings, like the McDonalds incident. All crazy zero politics. Of course I recall the Reagan shooting. Crazy, shot POTUS but no political motive. He was trying to impress Jody Foster.
I can not recall a single political assassination (apart from maybe bombs) that went for the assassination, and then went right to some huge mass killing. It would have been so much worse if he had reloaded and continued.
This one is a very different conflation of crazy, politics and assassinating a congresswoman. And then a mass killing. Far stranger than most. Whole new level.
| 29 |
Varek Raith Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:42:57pm |
re: #12 Walter L. Newton
Is Politico a wingnut site?
Wingnut? No.
Credible? No.
Not a fan of Politico. They come off as...tabloidy.
| 31 |
freetoken Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:44:04pm |
re: #15 palomino
How does Hoft reach the conclusion that the shooter was pro-Marxist? Because he liked a certain book? He also liked Mein Kampf.
Remember, in the Hoft-universe Hitler and the Nazis are part of the "left".
| 33 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:44:19pm |
Sourcewatch has an article on Politico:
[Link: www.sourcewatch.org...]
| 34 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:44:32pm |
BBIA minute... that's French for minute... (I'm brushing up on my French for my trip)
| 35 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:44:39pm |
| 36 |
recusancy Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:44:48pm |
re: #25 Walter L. Newton
The article on the Big Government site links to the source of that excerpt... which is at Politico, and the article is by By JONATHAN MARTIN & BEN SMITH & ALEXANDER BURNS.
Who are these three "reporters" and how can they post such material without any source. This is not just a passing remark...
That's a rather pointed statement to make without any proof as to who said it. And then this Jim Hoft runs with it, with no apparent concern for the source of the statement either.
My cat could do better journalism than this.
That's how Politico rolls. No need for a credible source. They like "scoops" and drama.
Martin is a conservative blogger and Smith is a liberal blogger. Don't know who Burns is.
| 37 |
Mocking Jay Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:44:52pm |
re: #28 Rightwingconspirator
I recall some awful mass shootings, like the McDonalds incident. All crazy zero politics. Of course I recall the Reagan shooting. Crazy, shot POTUS but no political motive. He was trying to impress Jody Foster.
I can not recall a single political assassination (apart from maybe bombs) that went for the assassination, and then went right to some huge mass killing. It would have been so much worse if he had reloaded and continued.
This one is a very different conflation of crazy, politics and assassinating a congresswoman. And then a mass killing. Far stranger than most. Whole new level.
Well, maybe if you counted Jonestown...
| 38 |
Big Joe Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:45:03pm |
| 39 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:45:04pm |
re: #27 Gus 802
More useless pablum from Hoft. I will say this though. The Democrats better be darn careful about pinning this solely on the Tea Party. That is the few that choose to do so. It will backfire to a certain extent.
I thought Emmanuel Cleaver's take today was well-put.
| 40 |
Kronocide Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:45:47pm |
I think this event should be assessed first but eventually the hyperheated rhetoric and imagery needs to be called to task no matter what the shooter's motivations.
| 41 |
palomino Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:45:56pm |
re: #32 jaunte
What's the minimum definition of a "Democratic operative?"
Whatever it is, there are thousands of them in DC. The anonymous musing of one of them isn't worth the paper it's no longer printed on.
| 42 |
recusancy Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:46:00pm |
re: #27 Gus 802
More useless pablum from Hoft. I will say this though. The Democrats better be darn careful about pinning this solely on the Tea Party. That is the few that choose to do so. It will backfire to a certain extent.
Let us know when you see the Dems doing that.
| 43 |
albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:46:05pm |
re: #32 jaunte
What's the minimum definition of a "Democratic operative?"
probably some housewife handing out fliers in a parking lot
| 44 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:46:41pm |
re: #42 recusancy
Let us know when you see the Dems doing that.
Did you miss this part:
That is the few that choose to do so.
But yes. I think I will.
| 45 |
webevintage Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:47:07pm |
re: #12 Walter L. Newton
Is Politico a wingnut site?
No, but they love them some "anonymous sources in the administration" so all stories must be taken with a grain of salt until confirmed.
| 46 |
Daniel Ballard Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:47:16pm |
re: #37 JasonA
I thought about that one. The Congressman went to them in this case, as an investigator. Kinda like shooting a detective, and then suicide. Certainly more evasive than political. Another really weird one.
| 47 |
researchok Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:47:52pm |
I need to get me one of those whirling dervish outfits.
In here, I'm just another pretty face.
//
| 48 |
HappyWarrior Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:47:54pm |
What bugs me about this is Hoft is trying to make the Teaparteirs in to victims yet again. One of the reasons why I have no respect for that movement is because of their constant victimhood bullshit and how they whine about Obama and Democrats. It's just a whine orgy with them about how oppressed they are. Oh cry me a river. So, a guy you don't like is in office.
| 49 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:48:31pm |
re: #47 researchok
I need to get me one of those whirling dervish outfits.
In here, I'm just another pretty face.
//
Watch it buster.
/
| 50 |
webevintage Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:48:37pm |
| 51 |
simoom Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:48:40pm |
re: #12 Walter L. Newton
Is Politico a wingnut site?
Is Dick Morris a "veteran Democratic operative"?
| 52 |
Big Joe Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:49:09pm |
re: #48 HappyWarrior
What bugs me about this is Hoft is trying to make the Teaparteirs in to victims yet again. One of the reasons why I have no respect for that movement is because of their constant victimhood bullshit and how they whine about Obama and Democrats. It's just a whine orgy with them about how oppressed they are. Oh cry me a river. So, a guy you don't like is in office.
Now just imagine that whine in Fran Drescher's voice.
| 53 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:49:24pm |
| 54 |
researchok Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:49:38pm |
| 55 |
recusancy Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:50:04pm |
re: #36 recusancy
That's how Politico rolls. No need for a credible source. They like "scoops" and drama.
Martin is a conservative blogger and Smith is a liberal blogger. Don't know who Burns is.
Burns is a righty looks like.
| 56 |
albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:51:33pm |
re: #53 Lidane
No. He's just a tool.
he's a free agent, making a good living wallowing in the muck...I don't begrudge him that...he just one of thousands like him
| 57 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:51:52pm |
OT, but expect this to become an issue for some people, and for the "ZOMG! They're gonna take mah gunz!" folks to jump all over it:
| 58 |
TheAntichrist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:52:02pm |
OK, this is bizarre, forgive me if it's been mentioned here already. This is Rep. Gifford's YouTube channel: [Link: www.youtube.com...]
Notice she has subscriptions to just 2 channels, you can see her subscriptions on the lower left of the page. One of them is classitup10's YouTube channel - which belongs to Jared Lee Loughner.
| 60 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:52:26pm |
re: #47 researchok
I need to get me one of those whirling dervish outfits.
In here, I'm just another pretty face.
//
I once suffered through a very bad interfaith conference which was enlivened by a very charming Sufi imam from Cologne, and his lovely wife.
| 61 |
MittDoesNotCompute Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:52:56pm |
re: #37 JasonA
Well, maybe if you counted Jonestown...
A lot more in common with Jonestown than I'd like to admit, just without the FlavorAde.
| 62 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:52:59pm |
re: #48 HappyWarrior
What bugs me about this is Hoft is trying to make the Teaparteirs in to victims yet again. One of the reasons why I have no respect for that movement is because of their constant victimhood bullshit and how they whine about Obama and Democrats. It's just a whine orgy with them about how oppressed they are. Oh cry me a river. So, a guy you don't like is in office.
I keep telling them, it's only eight years. Granted, it will seem longer...
| 63 |
HappyWarrior Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:53:26pm |
| 64 |
Mocking Jay Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:53:42pm |
re: #46 Rightwingconspirator
I thought about that one. The Congressman went to them in this case, as an investigator. Kinda like shooting a detective, and then suicide. Certainly more evasive than political. Another really weird one.
Maybe, but the Representative had a voice people would listen to, which is why he was assassinated.
| 65 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:54:09pm |
I guess the bigger question now is what do we do about the 50,000 people that read Jim Hoft's blog?
| 66 |
Varek Raith Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:54:13pm |
re: #62 SanFranciscoZionist
I keep telling them, it's only eight years. Granted, it will seem longer...
It will be once Obama declare himself the Grand Pooba and rules for the rest of his life.
| 67 |
ClaudeMonet Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:54:22pm |
re: #32 jaunte
What's the minimum definition of a "Democratic operative?"
Someone who doesn't march in lockstep with Hoft and his type. A frequently useful straw man.
| 68 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:54:46pm |
re: #57 Lidane
OT, but expect this to become an issue for some people, and for the "ZOMG! They're gonna take mah gunz!" folks to jump all over it:
Any time there's a particularly awful or high-profile shooting, we go into this dance. And it's the worst possible time to discuss guns and their meaning in our lives.
| 69 |
freetoken Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:55:09pm |
I have no doubt that political party functionaries and hired flunkies strategize to exploit whatever is in the news.
Yet I also believe that in this case one doesn't have to be sneaky about addressing an issue that is directly tied to the shooting in AZ: our contemporary culture is soaked in extreme rhetoric and images and in particular the latter day anti-modernism movement that collectively calls itself "tea party" is full of such rhetoric. The "tea parties" are not unique in this, but in 2010 and now in the new year they are the largest such movement going in our country.
If I were a Democratic Party operative I'd simply point out how violent our culture is, how easy it is for mentally unstable people to have access to guns, and how the latter day "conservatives" ignore or minimize problems of mental illness, weapons, and hate language.
| 70 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:55:11pm |
re: #58 TheAntichrist
OK, this is bizarre, forgive me if it's been mentioned here already. This is Rep. Gifford's YouTube channel: [Link: www.youtube.com...]
Notice she has subscriptions to just 2 channels, you can see her subscriptions on the lower left of the page. One of them is classitup10's YouTube channel - which belongs to Jared Lee Loughner.
That is interesting. Has it been discussed here... anyone?
| 71 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:55:12pm |
| 72 |
researchok Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:55:38pm |
re: #60 SanFranciscoZionist
I once suffered through a very bad interfaith conference which was enlivened by a very charming Sufi imam from Cologne, and his lovely wife.
You're lucky.
I don't have go to conferences to suffer.
| 73 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:55:39pm |
re: #12 Walter L. Newton
Is Politico a wingnut site?
I think so. They're generally more factually accurate than Fox News but they're pretty wingnutty.
| 74 |
researchok Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:56:02pm |
| 75 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:56:15pm |
re: #73 Killgore Trout
I think so. They're generally more factually accurate than Fox News but they're pretty wingnutty.
Really? You actually believe that Politico is wingnutty?
| 76 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:56:20pm |
re: #58 TheAntichrist
OK, this is bizarre, forgive me if it's been mentioned here already. This is Rep. Gifford's YouTube channel: [Link: www.youtube.com...]
Notice she has subscriptions to just 2 channels, you can see her subscriptions on the lower left of the page. One of them is classitup10's YouTube channel - which belongs to Jared Lee Loughner.
Whoa.
| 77 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:56:44pm |
re: #32 jaunte
What's the minimum definition of a "Democratic operative?"
Anyone registered "D"?
That's the thing. The person isn't named. Politico seems to a lot of stories with "unnamed sources". It could be anybody. And maybe somebody did suggest it. Lots of folks make suggestions. Is it a serious suggestion? I would think not, for reasons I put here.
re: #13 reine.de.tout
| 78 |
albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:56:45pm |
re: #57 Lidane
OT, but expect this to become an issue for some people, and for the "ZOMG! They're gonna take mah gunz!" folks to jump all over it:
If Loughner had been using a traditional magazine, "it would have drastically reduced the number of shots he got off before he had to pause, unload and reload -- and he could have been stopped," Daniel Vice, senior attorney at the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, tells Salon.
and if there were other armed CC people around he could have been stopped...there is no point to it...the assault weapons ban was a mess, terrible legislation...poor language, confusing and written by zealous amateurs
| 79 |
Big Joe Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:56:46pm |
re: #58 TheAntichrist
OK, this is bizarre, forgive me if it's been mentioned here already. This is Rep. Gifford's YouTube channel: [Link: www.youtube.com...]
Notice she has subscriptions to just 2 channels, you can see her subscriptions on the lower left of the page. One of them is classitup10's YouTube channel - which belongs to Jared Lee Loughner.
Could it have been added since the shooting?
| 80 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:56:59pm |
Class of 2004 had their banned reading list and now the class of 2011 has their banned reading list. How ironic.
| 81 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:57:22pm |
re: #70 Walter L. Newton
That is interesting. Has it been discussed here... anyone?
Answered my own question... it's around the internet...
[Link: www.abovetopsecret.com...]
,,, this site and many more have the connection information.
| 82 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:57:40pm |
| 83 |
researchok Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:57:41pm |
re: #69 freetoken
If I were a Democratic Party operative I'd simply point out how violent our culture is, how easy it is for mentally unstable people to have access to guns, and how the latter day "conservatives" ignore or minimize problems of mental illness, weapons, and hate language.
Yup- that there is the winning strategy.
The great middle has an honorable way out.
| 84 |
BryanS Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:57:56pm |
re: #58 TheAntichrist
OK, this is bizarre, forgive me if it's been mentioned here already. This is Rep. Gifford's YouTube channel: [Link: www.youtube.com...]
Notice she has subscriptions to just 2 channels, you can see her subscriptions on the lower left of the page. One of them is classitup10's YouTube channel - which belongs to Jared Lee Loughner.
wow.
| 85 |
ClaudeMonet Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:58:08pm |
re: #65 Gus 802
I guess the bigger question now is what do we do about the 50,000 people that read Jim Hoft's blog?
Allegedly it's 50,000 people. The reality may vary, especially since reality isn't exactly Hoft's strong suit.
| 86 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:58:16pm |
re: #58 TheAntichrist
OK, this is bizarre, forgive me if it's been mentioned here already. This is Rep. Gifford's YouTube channel: [Link: www.youtube.com...]
Notice she has subscriptions to just 2 channels, you can see her subscriptions on the lower left of the page. One of them is classitup10's YouTube channel - which belongs to Jared Lee Loughner.
I have not nearly enough information or savvy to know if that's real, or whatever, or how a person subscribes--I don't use YouTube for much more than looking up SNL skits I liked.
He was, apparently, interested in her for a long time. He seems to have asked her a question at a conference--something about this grammar fixation he had. Dunno.
| 87 |
albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:58:58pm |
re: #65 Gus 802
I guess the bigger question now is what do we do about the 50,000 people that read Jim Hoft's blog?
snort....America is hosed
| 89 |
CuriousLurker Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:59:05pm |
My eyes feel like sandpaper. Goodnight, everyone.
| 90 |
Varek Raith Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:59:27pm |
re: #80 Gus 802
Class of 2004 had their banned reading list and now the class of 2011 has their banned reading list. How ironic.
Banned reading list?
I still read politico, I just take them with a grain of salt.
| 91 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:59:34pm |
re: #57 Lidane
OT, but expect this to become an issue for some people, and for the "ZOMG! They're gonna take mah gunz!" folks to jump all over it:
This guy was determined. He would have bought a different gun.
| 92 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 7:59:47pm |
| 93 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:00:04pm |
re: #65 Gus 802
I guess the bigger question now is what do we do about the 50,000 people that read Jim Hoft's blog?
Pray for them?
| 95 |
TheAntichrist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:00:14pm |
re: #79 mracb
Could it have been added since the shooting?
I'm sure it could have been, but I can't imagine why.
| 96 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:00:24pm |
re: #66 Varek Raith
It will be once Obama declare himself the Grand Pooba and rules for the rest of his life.
Bush forgot. Maybe Obama will too.
/
| 97 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:00:52pm |
re: #70 Walter L. Newton
That is interesting. Has it been discussed here... anyone?
First time I've seen it.
| 98 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:00:59pm |
re: #88 Gus 802
I do not concur.
Well, if Politico is reporting something like an unnamed Democrat source saying something like that, then they must be a wingnut site.
| 99 |
sizzleRI Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:01:04pm |
re: #80 Gus 802
Class of 2004 had their banned reading list and now the class of 2011 has their banned reading list. How ironic.
Er, curious. I am technically class of 2010, but still what is on my banned reading list?
It can't be Politico because my very awkward Con law professor posts there and I refuse to ignore that. Any other suggestions?
| 100 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:01:19pm |
re: #90 Varek Raith
Banned reading list?
I still read politico, I just take them with a grain of salt.
I take everything with a grain of salt. But characterizing Politico as wingnutty is not based on reality. They have multiple correspondents working for them providing different points of view. Their cartoons are generally left leaning.
| 101 |
HappyWarrior Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:01:42pm |
re: #86 SanFranciscoZionist
I have not nearly enough information or savvy to know if that's real, or whatever, or how a person subscribes--I don't use YouTube for much more than looking up SNL skits I liked.
He was, apparently, interested in her for a long time. He seems to have asked her a question at a conference--something about this grammar fixation he had. Dunno.
Well I can kinda answer this as someone who has used subscriptilon before. Basically, if you use subscription, you get an email notification if the user you signed up for puts up a new one. It definitely seems he was interested in her if that's the case. By the way, haven't followed much since yesterday but intial reports said he was an Afghanistan vet, I take it that's been shown not to be the case since I heard quotes from fellow college students of his in anotehr aticle I read today.
| 102 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:01:46pm |
re: #91 reine.de.tout
This guy was determined. He would have bought a different gun.
True, but that won't stop the hysterical types on both the pro- and anti-gun control sides from making hay about it.
| 103 |
ClaudeMonet Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:02:08pm |
re: #96 SanFranciscoZionist
Bush forgot. Maybe Obama will too.
/
It seems to me that after eight years, most outgoing Presidents are sick of the stress, sick from the stress, and sick of the whole thing. At least for most of them, the last thing they want is a life sentence as "king".
| 104 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:02:20pm |
re: #72 researchok
You're lucky.
I don't have go to conferences to suffer.
I had to fly to Germany! I couldn't get the phones to work! Germans are very emotional people!
It was a difficult conference.
| 105 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:03:08pm |
re: #98 Walter L. Newton
Well, if Politico is reporting something like an unnamed Democrat source saying something like that, then they must be a wingnut site.
Yeah. I think it has something to do with that other 11th Commandment. Must be an amendment of sorts.
| 107 |
goddamnedfrank Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:03:17pm |
re: #58 TheAntichrist
OK, this is bizarre, forgive me if it's been mentioned here already. This is Rep. Gifford's YouTube channel: [Link: www.youtube.com...]
Notice she has subscriptions to just 2 channels, you can see her subscriptions on the lower left of the page. One of them is classitup10's YouTube channel - which belongs to Jared Lee Loughner.
Keep your enemies closer? Subscribing as a way of monitoring new developments perhaps.
| 108 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:03:26pm |
Inexplicable Edits on Sarah Palin's Facebook Page
(with screenshots)
| 109 |
researchok Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:03:29pm |
re: #73 Killgore Trout
I think so. They're generally more factually accurate than Fox News but they're pretty wingnutty.
I don't believe they are wing nuts. They may an editorial orientation but no more than that, IMO.
Every paper/media outlet has a particular ideological stand. That doesn't necessarily mean they can't be trusted.
| 110 |
recusancy Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:03:30pm |
re: #99 sizzleRI
Er, curious. I am technically class of 2010, but still what is on my banned reading list?
It can't be Politico because my very awkward Con law professor posts there and I refuse to ignore that. Any other suggestions?
Gus likes hyperbole.
| 111 |
ClaudeMonet Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:04:09pm |
re: #101 HappyWarrior
Well I can kinda answer this as someone who has used subscriptilon before. Basically, if you use subscription, you get an email notification if the user you signed up for puts up a new one. It definitely seems he was interested in her if that's the case. By the way, haven't followed much since yesterday but intial reports said he was an Afghanistan vet, I take it that's been shown not to be the case since I heard quotes from fellow college students of his in anotehr aticle I read today.
It's definite that he never served in the armed forces. I read that he tried to enlist in the Army but was rejected.
| 112 |
Varek Raith Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:04:28pm |
re: #98 Walter L. Newton
Well, if Politico is reporting something like an unnamed Democrat source saying something like that, then they must be a wingnut site.
Politico loves it's "Unnamed sources have..." shtick.
They take in crap from everyone.
| 113 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:04:32pm |
re: #98 Walter L. Newton
Well, if Politico is reporting something like an unnamed Democrat source saying something like that, then they must be a wingnut site.
You don't think an unnamed Democrat would have said something like that?
| 114 |
HappyWarrior Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:04:50pm |
re: #106 Lidane
He was a hero of mine. Always humble at his heroism. RIP Dick, you will be missed but always remembered.
| 115 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:05:04pm |
re: #109 researchok
I don't believe they are wing nuts. They may an editorial orientation but no more than that, IMO.
Every paper/media outlet has a particular ideological stand. That doesn't necessarily mean they can't be trusted.
Agreed. As far as right wing sites they are pretty much as good as it gets.
| 116 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:05:45pm |
re: #101 HappyWarrior
Well I can kinda answer this as someone who has used subscriptilon before. Basically, if you use subscription, you get an email notification if the user you signed up for puts up a new one. It definitely seems he was interested in her if that's the case. By the way, haven't followed much since yesterday but intial reports said he was an Afghanistan vet, I take it that's been shown not to be the case since I heard quotes from fellow college students of his in anotehr aticle I read today.
Yeah, the 'Afghan vet' thing popped up right after the shooting and was debunked in a matter of hours.
| 117 |
albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:05:52pm |
| 118 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:06:07pm |
re: #113 SanFranciscoZionist
You don't think an unnamed Democrat would have said something like that?
No.
| 119 |
BryanS Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:06:08pm |
re: #101 HappyWarrior
Well I can kinda answer this as someone who has used subscriptilon before. Basically, if you use subscription, you get an email notification if the user you signed up for puts up a new one. It definitely seems he was interested in her if that's the case. By the way, haven't followed much since yesterday but intial reports said he was an Afghanistan vet, I take it that's been shown not to be the case since I heard quotes from fellow college students of his in anotehr aticle I read today.
No--this is something completely different. SHE was subscribed to HIS channel!
I wonder if she had reason to be concerned about this guy/follow his rantings before the shooting.
| 121 |
HappyWarrior Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:06:44pm |
re: #116 SanFranciscoZionist
Yeah, the 'Afghan vet' thing popped up right after the shooting and was debunked in a matter of hours.
Yeah, I thought so. Just hadn't seen the debunking. Thanks SFZ.
| 122 |
jaunte Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:06:49pm |
re: #113 SanFranciscoZionist
They were described as an Operative. Sounds authoritative.
| 123 |
recusancy Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:07:06pm |
| 125 |
researchok Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:07:42pm |
re: #104 SanFranciscoZionist
I had to fly to Germany! I couldn't get the phones to work! Germans are very emotional people!
It was a difficult conference.
My favorite place in the German speaking world is Vienna.
The Waltz festival at the Alexanderplatz, coffee and Linzer torte.
And waitresses in dirndels.
I miss Europe.
| 126 |
HappyWarrior Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:07:45pm |
re: #119 BryanS
No--this is something completely different. SHE was subscribed to HIS channel!
I wonder if she had reason to be concerned about this guy/follow his rantings before the shooting.
Oh my bad, that really is crazy as hell then. I knew she was concerned about violence and stuff because of some of the statemetns she mad.
| 127 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:08:07pm |
re: #118 Walter L. Newton
No.
OK. Then Politico must have fabricated the quote, which is not something, I have to admit, I would have expected of them. No?
| 128 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:08:12pm |
re: #123 recusancy
No, I think hyperbole should be banned.
Funny. BTW, what's your name? I'm Gus. That's actually my legal first name. I feel funny sometimes in here because no one uses their real first names.
| 129 |
albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:08:22pm |
re: #108 Killgore Trout
Inexplicable Edits on Sarah Palin's Facebook Page
(with screenshots)
ouch!...some well deserved smack in there...I hope her entire gig falls completely apart and she ends up in a poorhouse....despicable ass
| 130 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:08:49pm |
re: #124 Gus 802
Thanks Walter. ;)
Er... for what? I think you have a good handle on my methodology... did I step on some toes... sorry.
| 131 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:09:02pm |
re: #128 Gus 802
Funny. BTW, what's your name? I'm Gus. That's actually my legal first name. I feel funny sometimes in here because no one uses their real first names.
Oops! I mean some people don't use their real first names! Just to make that clear.
| 132 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:09:04pm |
re: #122 jaunte
They were described as an Operative. Sounds authoritative.
How can I tell if I'm a Democratic operative or not? Is there a blood test?
| 133 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:09:20pm |
re: #128 Gus 802
Funny. BTW, what's your name? I'm Gus. That's actually my legal first name. I feel funny sometimes in here because no one uses their real first names.
"No one?"
| 136 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:09:34pm |
re: #131 Gus 802
Oops! I mean some people don't use their real first names! Just to make that clear.
Hell, everybody in the world and then some seem to know my real name.
| 138 |
BryanS Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:09:45pm |
re: #126 HappyWarrior
Oh my bad, that really is crazy as hell then. I knew she was concerned about violence and stuff because of some of the statemetns she mad.
This is a huge new dimension to this story if that subscription was there before the shooting. I can't believe it hasn't been noticed by main stream media yet.
| 139 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:09:51pm |
re: #131 Gus 802
Oops! I mean some people don't use their real first names! Just to make that clear.
"some people?" LOL.
| 140 |
Mocking Jay Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:09:56pm |
| 141 |
researchok Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:10:02pm |
re: #125 researchok
Mostly, I miss the dirndels.
| 142 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:10:41pm |
re: #138 BryanS
This is a huge new dimension to this story if that subscription was there before the shooting. I can't believe it hasn't been noticed by main stream media yet.
Search Google "classitup10 Rep. Gifford youtube" there are a number of blogs reporting this, I don't know the first source.
| 143 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:10:51pm |
re: #128 Gus 802
Funny. BTW, what's your name? I'm Gus. That's actually my legal first name. I feel funny sometimes in here because no one uses their real first names.
Walter does. Charles does. I think Albusteve is a real Steve.
| 144 |
BryanS Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:10:54pm |
re: #128 Gus 802
Funny. BTW, what's your name? I'm Gus. That's actually my legal first name. I feel funny sometimes in here because no one uses their real first names.
My name is Fred...no wait, Bryan :)
| 145 |
recusancy Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:11:06pm |
re: #138 BryanS
This is a huge new dimension to this story if that subscription was there before the shooting. I can't believe it hasn't been noticed by main stream media yet.
[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]
| 146 |
albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:11:25pm |
| 147 |
simoom Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:11:25pm |
re: #51 simoom
re: #12 Walter L. Newton
Is Politico a wingnut site?
Is Dick Morris a "veteran Democratic operative"?
Just to be perfectly clear, I agree with previous posters who've described Morris as a mercenary and a tool. It's also plain that he's currently, and for some time now has been, a creature of the Right.
I was making the point that "veteran Democratic operative" could easily be applied to Morris, and that demonstrates a background source description of "veteran Democratic operative" as so broad as to be nearly meaningless.
| 149 |
Varek Raith Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:11:27pm |
re: #128 Gus 802
Funny. BTW, what's your name? I'm Gus. That's actually my legal first name. I feel funny sometimes in here because no one uses their real first names.
I'm 13-1-20-20.
Sup?
| 150 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:11:30pm |
re: #143 SanFranciscoZionist
Walter does. Charles does. I think Albusteve is a real Steve.
And Reine is a real Reine.
hahahahaha!
*snort*
*snicker*
hahahaha!
| 151 |
researchok Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:11:31pm |
re: #132 SanFranciscoZionist
How can I tell if I'm a Democratic operative or not? Is there a blood test?
If you are familiar with Kohenet, you are an operative.
Or so I've been told.
/
| 152 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:11:42pm |
re: #134 Varek Raith
Sarcasm should be illegal.
Nothing like a whole bunch of people all typing sarcastically at one another for absolute clarity.
That was sarcastic, in case anyone was unclear.
| 153 |
Mocking Jay Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:11:49pm |
re: #143 SanFranciscoZionist
Walter does. Charles does. I think Albusteve is a real Steve.
Wow. It's like I don't even exist anymore.
| 155 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:12:37pm |
re: #153 JasonA
Wow. It's like I don't even exist anymore.
Well... what kind of last name is "asona?"
| 156 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:12:38pm |
| 157 |
ClaudeMonet Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:12:40pm |
re: #106 Lidane
A great soldier and more importantly a great person. Like many of the fathers of my peers when I was a kid, he was the kind of person who should be hailed as a hero, not some sports star or alleged entertainer.
RIP Major Winters. You did well.
| 159 |
Sionainn Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:13:48pm |
re: #131 Gus 802
Oops! I mean some people don't use their real first names! Just to make that clear.
I do, just with the Irish spelling.
| 160 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:13:50pm |
| 161 |
BryanS Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:13:51pm |
| 162 |
bratwurst Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:13:57pm |
re: #134 Varek Raith
Sarcasm should be illegal.
And redundancy should be stamped out and eliminated.
| 163 |
Daniel Ballard Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:14:00pm |
re: #136 reine.de.tout
You have been betrayed by past banned posers.
When we got the option to have our names on Pages, I went for it. Heck, my name is on much of my photography- in the copyright.
| 164 |
ClaudeMonet Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:14:03pm |
re: #127 SanFranciscoZionist
OK. Then Politico must have fabricated the quote, which is not something, I have to admit, I would have expected of them. No?
They may not have fabricated the quote. Maybe it was fabricated by someone else and they ran what was written.
| 165 |
HappyWarrior Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:14:40pm |
re: #138 BryanS
This is a huge new dimension to this story if that subscription was there before the shooting. I can't believe it hasn't been noticed by main stream media yet.
Yeah, it's a weird twist for sure. My guess is that perhaps he commented on some of her posted videos on youtube or perhaps his user icon was provoking. It's such a crazy story really.
| 166 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:14:50pm |
re: #163 Rightwingconspirator
You have been betrayed by past banned posers.
When we got the option to have our names on Pages, I went for it. Heck, my name is on much of my photography- in the copyright.
{RWC}
I've thought of putting my name on Pages, as well. MIght yet do it, one day.
| 167 |
Varek Raith Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:14:57pm |
| 168 |
albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:15:12pm |
| 169 |
albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:15:55pm |
| 170 |
dragonfire1981 Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:15:57pm |
Any political group/movement that deliberately kills people as some sort of deranged publicity stunt is a group I don't want to be associated with.
| 171 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:16:01pm |
So, parts of Louisiana are getting some sneaux, but we're not!
Not fair, not fair at all.
| 172 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:16:14pm |
re: #166 reine.de.tout
I've thought of putting my name on Pages, as well. Might yet do it, one day.
It's crossed my mind as well. Haven't decided one way or the other on that.
| 173 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:16:15pm |
| 174 |
recusancy Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:17:46pm |
re: #138 BryanS
This is a huge new dimension to this story if that subscription was there before the shooting. I can't believe it hasn't been noticed by main stream media yet.
She wasn't subscribed to him on the 26th December: [Link: www.youtube.com...]
| 175 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:17:52pm |
re: #159 Sionainn
I do, just with the Irish spelling.
I suspect your's is "Shannon", but I keep wanting to say "Sean Ann" (I have a brother named Sean, so it just comes to mind).
| 176 |
Sionainn Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:18:31pm |
re: #175 reine.de.tout
I suspect your's is "Shannon", but I keep wanting to say "Sean Ann" (I have a brother named Sean, so it just comes to mind).
You suspect correctly.
| 177 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:18:57pm |
re: #78 albusteve
If Loughner had been using a traditional magazine, "it would have drastically reduced the number of shots he got off before he had to pause, unload and reload -- and he could have been stopped," Daniel Vice, senior attorney at the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, tells Salon.
and if there were other armed CC people around he could have been stopped...there is no point to it...the assault weapons ban was a mess, terrible legislation...poor language, confusing and written by zealous amateurs
Moreover, the Glock 19 is designed to use a 15-round magazine, not a 10 round unit. So the "traditional magzine" Talking Point falls flat. You're right steve, a bad bill thankfully expired.
| 178 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:19:07pm |
Wow. Nobody's ever going to guess my name.
I'm so clever.
| 179 |
Daniel Ballard Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:19:27pm |
re: #166 reine.de.tout
Well maybe may as well. Heh, I recall when a former frequent poster used your name in a post to ya just without thinking about it. ooopsie!
Honestly I wanted to strengthen the copyright. I was afraid my nic was not legal in the image copyright context. And Pages get enough hits and top Google searches... Well I know I have one "fire texture" shot in my blog that got grabbed and used quite a bit.
| 180 |
prairiefire Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:20:13pm |
re: #172 Lidane
It's crossed my mind as well. Haven't decided one way or the other on that.
Keep in mind you will be officially published. The pages come up in Google subject searches, which is cool.
| 181 |
researchok Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:20:16pm |
| 182 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:20:19pm |
Unlike Talking Points Memo which is a bastion of sourced information.
//
| 184 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:20:54pm |
re: #177 Dark_Falcon
Moreover, the Glock 19 is designed to use a 15-round magazine, not a 10 round unit. So the "traditional magzine" Talking Point falls flat. You're right steve, a bad bill thankfully expired.
Thing is, none of that will stop the more hysterical people in the gun control debate to make hay about that Salon story.
| 185 |
prairiefire Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:21:06pm |
re: #179 Rightwingconspirator
It absolutely will strengthen your copyright. Cool.
| 186 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:21:07pm |
re: #178 EmmmieG
Wow. Nobody's ever going to guess my name.
I'm so clever.
You are indeed, Ms G.
YOu threw that extra letter in there and it just confuses everybody!
| 187 |
elizajane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:21:20pm |
If your gag reflex needs a workout, see Glenn Reynolds in the Wall Street Journal (and the comment section) on how this is all the left wing's fault. Sarah Palin, it seems, is being viciously, nay, indecently attacked for her use of cliches.
Woah. We're approaching Loughner's "Government control through grammar."
"There's a climate of hate out there, all right, but it doesn't derive from the innocuous use of political clichés. And former Gov. Palin and the tea party movement are more the targets than the source."
[Link: online.wsj.com...]
| 188 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:21:42pm |
re: #179 Rightwingconspirator
Well maybe may as well. Heh, I recall when a former frequent poster used your name in a post to ya just without thinking about it. ooopsie!
Honestly I wanted to strengthen the copyright. I was afraid my nic was not legal in the image copyright context. And Pages get enough hits and top Google searches... Well I know I have one "fire texture" shot in my blog that got grabbed and used quite a bit.
Love your fire photos, love love love 'em.
| 190 |
rwmofo Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:22:41pm |
re: #171 reine.de.tout
So, parts of Louisiana are getting some sneaux, but we're not!
Not fair, not fair at all.
We got a little in Plano today. Now it's cold. You'll probably get the cold.
| 191 |
Daniel Ballard Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:22:48pm |
| 192 |
BryanS Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:22:48pm |
re: #174 recusancy
She wasn't subscribed to him on the 26th December: [Link: www.youtube.com...]
Good to know. Some claiming she was subbed on the day of the shooting before that page was found out. Would be good to get confirmation, but for now I'll take any claim she was subbed with a grain of salt.
| 193 |
Kragar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:22:55pm |
re: #178 EmmmieG
Wow. Nobody's ever going to guess my name.
I'm so clever.
The triple M throws everyone off.
| 194 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:23:01pm |
| 195 |
Varek Raith Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:23:30pm |
| 196 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:24:28pm |
re: #190 rwmofo
We got a little in Plano today. Now it's cold. You'll probably get the cold.
We've got the cold now.
When we opened the door a little while ago, the 3 cats that were outside didn't do their usual oh-I'm-not-paying-any-attention-to-you saunter in from the porch.
They made a running leap to get inside. When the cats do that, it's cold.
| 197 |
recusancy Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:24:46pm |
re: #192 BryanS
Good to know. Some claiming she was subbed on the day of the shooting before that page was found out. Would be good to get confirmation, but for now I'll take any claim she was subbed with a grain of salt.
He wrote to her and received a written reply so maybe he asked her to subscribe to the channel so she could learn his awesome new currency idea.
| 198 |
Kragar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:25:05pm |
re: #195 Varek Raith
And you must be (
Some people call me the space cowboy.
Some call me the gangster of love.
Some people call me Maurice.
| 199 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:25:42pm |
| 200 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:25:43pm |
OK, I see what you guys are getting at. The quote is probably accurate. Not much need to fabricate it because it's just common sense. Of course the Dems and going to use this and other incidents to paint the wingnut extremists violent rhetoric as.......violent and extremist. Just wait until the Glen Beck fan arrested on his way to assassinate people at Tides foundation goes on trial. Those transcripts will be all over the news. Republicans will not be able to run a tea party candidate in 2012 because of the extremist ties and possibly mounting death toll.
I don;t see any reason for the Dems to ignore this obvious political weakness.
| 201 |
simoom Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:26:08pm |
Actually, my guess for Politico's "veteran Democratic operative" would be either Douglas Schoen or Patrick Caddell. Politico has previously described them as "Democratic pollsters" and also as "veteran consultants".
| 202 |
rwmofo Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:26:15pm |
| 203 |
jaunte Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:26:26pm |
re: #187 elizajane
There's a climate of hate out there, all right, but it doesn't derive from the innocuous use of political clichés.
He's right about those words, but he's wrong to pretend that the climate of hate is a result of 'political clichés.'
| 204 |
jamesfirecat Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:27:05pm |
re: #44 Gus 802
Did you miss this part:
But yes. I think I will.
I don't think anyone will be foolish enough to stand up and say "Only the teaparty is at fault for this"
| 205 |
researchok Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:27:13pm |
| 206 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:27:18pm |
re: #200 Killgore Trout
OK, I see what you guys are getting at. The quote is probably accurate. Not much need to fabricate it because it's just common sense. Of course the Dems and going to use this and other incidents to paint the wingnut extremists violent rhetoric as...violent and extremist. Just wait until the Glen Beck fan arrested on his way to assassinate people at Tides foundation goes on trial. Those transcripts will be all over the news. Republicans will not be able to run a tea party candidate in 2012 because of the extremist ties and possibly mounting death toll.
I don;t see any reason for the Dems to ignore this obvious political weakness.
They don't have to "paint" the violent rhetoric as violent and extremist - it is violent and extremist, it speaks for itself.
| 207 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:27:31pm |
re: #196 reine.de.tout
We've got the cold now.
When we opened the door a little while ago, the 3 cats that were outside didn't do their usual oh-I'm-not-paying-any-attention-to-you saunter in from the porch.They made a running leap to get inside. When the cats do that, it's cold.
It's a warm 8 degrees (f) here right now... snowing... about 3 inches so far, not as heavy as a snow as first predicted... at first, they were looking at 6-12 inches... but it's been slow all day... we'll see what we got in the morning.
| 208 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:28:18pm |
re: #200 Killgore Trout
OK, I see what you guys are getting at. The quote is probably accurate. Not much need to fabricate it because it's just common sense. Of course the Dems and going to use this and other incidents to paint the wingnut extremists violent rhetoric as...violent and extremist. Just wait until the Glen Beck fan arrested on his way to assassinate people at Tides foundation goes on trial. Those transcripts will be all over the news. Republicans will not be able to run a tea party candidate in 2012 because of the extremist ties and possibly mounting death toll.
I don;t see any reason for the Dems to ignore this obvious political weakness.
The good news, such as it is, is that this is happening now, well before the election. Hopefully, it give the saner parts of the party enough time to reign in the tea party crowd,
| 209 |
sizzleRI Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:28:20pm |
re: #204 jamesfirecat
I don't think anyone will be foolish enough to stand up and say "Only the teaparty is at fault for this"
In fairness some Democrat probably will and I will hang my head.
| 210 |
recusancy Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:29:22pm |
re: #208 Dark_Falcon
The good news, such as it is, is that this is happening now, well before the election. Hopefully, it give the saner parts of the party enough time to reign in the tea party crowd,
This actually made me lol.
| 211 |
researchok Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:29:44pm |
re: #200 Killgore Trout
OK, I see what you guys are getting at. The quote is probably accurate. Not much need to fabricate it because it's just common sense. Of course the Dems and going to use this and other incidents to paint the wingnut extremists violent rhetoric as...violent and extremist. Just wait until the Glen Beck fan arrested on his way to assassinate people at Tides foundation goes on trial. Those transcripts will be all over the news. Republicans will not be able to run a tea party candidate in 2012 because of the extremist ties and possibly mounting death toll.
I don;t see any reason for the Dems to ignore this obvious political weakness.
Yup- it's just business.
Sad all around, though.
| 212 |
jamesfirecat Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:30:02pm |
re: #200 Killgore Trout
OK, I see what you guys are getting at. The quote is probably accurate. Not much need to fabricate it because it's just common sense. Of course the Dems and going to use this and other incidents to paint the wingnut extremists violent rhetoric as...violent and extremist. Just wait until the Glen Beck fan arrested on his way to assassinate people at Tides foundation goes on trial. Those transcripts will be all over the news. Republicans will not be able to run a tea party candidate in 2012 because of the extremist ties and possibly mounting death toll.
I don;t see any reason for the Dems to ignore this obvious political weakness.
I'll take "because they're Democrats" for 1000 Alex!
After all we wouldn't be Democrats if we weren't hopelessly inept at this election thing....
| 213 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:30:43pm |
re: #210 recusancy
This actually made me lol.
So . . .
You don't like hyperbole.
And you laugh at someone's serious statement.
| 214 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:31:38pm |
re: #213 reine.de.tout
So . . .
You don't like hyperbole.
And you laugh at someone's serious statement.
Partisan piss-ant... it can't help itself.
| 215 |
sizzleRI Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:31:40pm |
re: #212 jamesfirecat
Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory! (Lifelong Tennessee Volunteers fan.)
| 216 |
jamesfirecat Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:31:48pm |
re: #206 reine.de.tout
They don't have to "paint" the violent rhetoric as violent and extremist - it is violent and extremist, it speaks for itself.
As Larry Willmore said on the Daily Show it "isn't politically correct, it's correct correct!"
| 217 |
recusancy Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:31:56pm |
re: #213 reine.de.tout
So . . .
You don't like hyperbole.
And you laugh at someone's serious statement.
I'm not laughing at the commenter. I'm laughing trying to imagine the GOP reigning in the TP. It's not gonna happen.
| 218 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:32:32pm |
We need a new cut of meat. The old red meat isn't working for me anymore.
| 219 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:32:40pm |
re: #214 Walter L. Newton
Partisan piss-ant... it can't help itself.
Just trying to figure out what can be done to earn his respect.
Not much, it seems.
| 221 |
recusancy Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:33:19pm |
re: #219 reine.de.tout
Just trying to figure out what can be done to earn his respect.
Not much, it seems.
Why do you want it's respect?
| 222 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:33:19pm |
re: #218 Gus 802
We need a new cut of meat. The old red meat isn't working for me anymore.
Try starch.
| 223 |
jamesfirecat Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:33:26pm |
re: #213 reine.de.tout
So . . .
You don't like hyperbole.
And you laugh at someone's serious statement.
We all have our pet causes that we believe in despite being hopelessly nieve in regards to them. Mine is that mankind will one day live together in piece and harmony and almost everyone should get a second chance.
Dark's is that the GOP will run someone sane for President in 2012... or 2016...
| 224 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:33:53pm |
re: #218 Gus 802
We need a new cut of meat. The old red meat isn't working for me anymore.
Try emu meat for a change, or maybe elk.
/Don't ask where that came from.
| 225 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:33:57pm |
re: #221 recusancy
Why do you want it's respect?
"His" I said.
Not "its".
Dunno, really. Silly idea, I suppose.
| 226 |
researchok Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:34:10pm |
re: #196 reine.de.tout
We've got the cold now.
When we opened the door a little while ago, the 3 cats that were outside didn't do their usual oh-I'm-not-paying-any-attention-to-you saunter in from the porch.They made a running leap to get inside. When the cats do that, it's cold.
22 degrees here now.
We're expecting up to a half inch and a couple of inches of snow.
| 227 |
ClaudeMonet Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:34:35pm |
re: #208 Dark_Falcon
The good news, such as it is, is that this is happening now, well before the election. Hopefully, it give the saner parts of the party enough time to reign in the tea party crowd,
I do not doubt that there are saner parts of the party. I question whether they have the guts to reign in the TP folks and/or the stamina to take the electoral carnage that would probably result.
True people of courage would say, "Let's stop this garbage right now, and if we have to lose half our party's seats in order to do it, fine, it's for the common good." Then I look at Boehner and McConnell, much as I've looked at Pelosi and Reid, and said, "There is no courage here".
| 228 |
researchok Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:35:08pm |
re: #218 Gus 802
We need a new cut of meat. The old red meat isn't working for me anymore.
Just6 remember, tofu isn't meat.
I don't care what SFZ says.
| 229 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:35:11pm |
re: #215 sizzleRI
Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory! (Lifelong Tennessee Volunteers fan.)
LOL.
And for many years, Saints fans felt the same way.
| 230 |
albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:35:15pm |
re: #219 reine.de.tout
Just trying to figure out what can be done to earn his respect.
Not much, it seems.
that's it exactly
| 231 |
Big Joe Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:35:33pm |
re: #218 Gus 802
We need a new cut of meat. The old red meat isn't working for me anymore.
I prefer pork shoulder. Slowly smoked for 12 hours. I have a helluva vinegar sauce.
| 232 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:36:04pm |
re: #228 researchok
Just6 remember, tofu isn't meat.
I don't care what SFZ says.
Although tofu would prevent me from being poisoned by contaminated red meat because of the Republicans!!11ty
//
| 234 |
ClaudeMonet Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:36:26pm |
re: #218 Gus 802
We need a new cut of meat. The old red meat isn't working for me anymore.
Weasel...the other yellow meat.
re: #217 recusancy
I'm not laughing at the commenter. I'm laughing trying to imagine the GOP reigning in the TP. It's not gonna happen.
That's the first time we've been in 100% agreement.
| 235 |
jamesfirecat Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:36:45pm |
re: #227 ClaudeMonet
I do not doubt that there are saner parts of the party. I question whether they have the guts to reign in the TP folks and/or the stamina to take the electoral carnage that would probably result.
True people of courage would say, "Let's stop this garbage right now, and if we have to lose half our party's seats in order to do it, fine, it's for the common good." Then I look at Boehner and McConnell, much as I've looked at Pelosi and Reid, and said, "There is no courage here".
"Isildur Reagen kept the Ring Socons. The line of kingspoliticians is broken. There is no strength left in the world of Men party of the GOP. They're scattered, divided, leaderless."
| 236 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:36:50pm |
good night, everyone.
Wish I would be waking up to snow tomorrow, but alas, it's not to be.
Just rain, ick.
| 237 |
sizzleRI Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:37:26pm |
re: #232 Gus 802
Although tofu would prevent me from being poisoned by contaminated red meat because of the Republicans!!11ty
//
But what of the hippies an the soy? You can't trust anyone. That is why I stick to placenta.
| 238 |
Kruk Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:38:00pm |
re: #187 elizajane
If your gag reflex needs a workout, see Glenn Reynolds in the Wall Street Journal (and the comment section) on how this is all the left wing's fault. Sarah Palin, it seems, is being viciously, nay, indecently attacked for her use of cliches.
Woah. We're approaching Loughner's "Government control through grammar.""There's a climate of hate out there, all right, but it doesn't derive from the innocuous use of political clichés. And former Gov. Palin and the tea party movement are more the targets than the source."
[Link: online.wsj.com...]
Pretty standard frame flipping. It's like when people say something racist, and then complain the race card is being used against them.
| 239 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:38:02pm |
re: #237 sizzleRI
But what of the hippies an the soy? You can't trust anyone. That is why I stick to placenta.
EW!
GROSS - just as I was getting up.
I do NOT need that image in my head.
EW.
*spit*
*ptui*
ick
| 240 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:38:24pm |
re: #237 sizzleRI
But what of the hippies an the soy? You can't trust anyone. That is why I stick to placenta.
Brains is a good alternative.
| 241 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:39:13pm |
re: #227 ClaudeMonet
I do not doubt that there are saner parts of the party. I question whether they have the guts to reign in the TP folks and/or the stamina to take the electoral carnage that would probably result.
True people of courage would say, "Let's stop this garbage right now, and if we have to lose half our party's seats in order to do it, fine, it's for the common good." Then I look at Boehner and McConnell, much as I've looked at Pelosi and Reid, and said, "There is no courage here".
The good news is that right now they;re not at that point. Right now they can act gradually, moving against the worst and hauling the rest back into line. A big dramatic confrontation is unneeded. This is fight to be waged in smokey back rooms. You marginalize by favoring sane people, tying insanity to loss of pork, measures like that.
| 242 |
albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:39:24pm |
| 243 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:39:30pm |
Tea Party Tea Party Tea Party Tea Party Tea Party Tea Party Tea Party Tea Party Tea Party Tea Party Tea Party Tea Party Tea Party Tea Party Tea Party
| 244 |
Big Joe Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:40:24pm |
re: #240 Gus 802
Brains is a good alternative.
sure, ir you don't mind prion diseases destroying your nervous system.
| 245 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:40:28pm |
re: #240 Gus 802
Brains is a good alternative.
When I travel, I always plan to eat at least one new food type. I've done most of the typical stuff in Paris/France (escargot, frog legs)... this time, I'm thinking of trying horse.
Horse meat is sold in most of the markets there.
| 246 |
jamesfirecat Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:40:33pm |
| 248 |
Big Joe Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:41:08pm |
| 249 |
researchok Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:41:10pm |
Alright, I'm outta here.
I'm leaving Gus and SFZ in charge.
Jamesf, consider yourself deputized.
| 250 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:41:28pm |
re: #235 jamesfirecat
"
IsildurReagen kept theRingSocons. The line ofkingspoliticians is broken. There is no strength left in theworld of Menparty of the GOP. They're scattered, divided, leaderless."
Thank you very much, Lord Elrond.
| 251 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:42:07pm |
re: #249 researchok
Alright, I'm outta here.
I'm leaving Gus and SFZ in charge.
Jamesf, consider yourself deputized.
Me in charge? I feel crappy. Later.
| 253 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:43:25pm |
re: #251 Gus 802
Me in charge? I feel crappy. Later.
Shit.. don't leave... damn... now I'm left babysitting the 22 year old.
| 254 |
prairiefire Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:45:52pm |
re: #231 mracb
I prefer pork shoulder. Slowly smoked for 12 hours. I have a helluva vinegar sauce.
Recipe, please.
| 255 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:46:35pm |
For Dick Winters.
He was just a rookie trooper and he surely shook with fright.
He checked off his equipment and made sure his pack was tight.
He had to sit and listen to those awful engines roar.
You ain't gonna jump no more.Chorus:
Gory, gory, what a hell of way to die.
Gory, gory, what a hell of way to die.
Gory, gory, what a hell of way to die.
He ain't gonna jump no more."Is everybody happy?" cried the sergeant looking up.
Our hero feebly answered, "Yes", and then they stood him up.
He jumped into the icy blast, his static line unhooked.
And he ain't gonna jump no more.He counted long, he counted loud, he waited for the shock.
He felt the wind, he felt the cold, he felt the awful drop.
The silk from his reserve spilled out and wrapped around his legs.
And he ain't gonna jump no more.The risers swung around his neck, connectors cracked his dome.
Suspension lines were tied in knots around his skinny bones.
The canopy became his shroud, he hurtled to the ground.
And he ain't gonna jump no more.The days he lived and loved and laughed kept running through his mind.
He thought about the girl back home, the one he left behind.
He thought about the medicos and wondered what they'd find.
And he ain't gonna jump no more.The ambulance was on the spot, the jeeps were running wild.
The medics jumped and screamed with glee, rolled up their sleeves and smiled.
For it had been a week or more since last a 'chute had failed.
And he ain't gonna jump no more.He hit the ground, the sound was "Splat," his blood went spurting high.
His comrades they were heard to say, "A helluva way to die."
He lay there rolling 'round in the welter of his gore.
And he ain't gonna jump no more.There was blood upon the risers, there were brains upon the 'chute.
Intestines were a-dangling from his paratrooper suit.
He was a mess, they picked him up and poured him from his boots.
And he ain't gonna jump no more.
| 256 |
BryanS Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:48:04pm |
OK..about that timing thing....
here is a blog that noticed the channel subscription by Giffords' youtube site to her shooter's youtube page, noticed at 5pm yesterday.
There us also a screenshot posted at 5:37pm yesterday showing she had last visited 12 hours before that screen cap.
Doesn't that suggest she was subscribed BEFORE she was shot !?
[Link: community.comcast.net...]
| 257 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:48:05pm |
Hey, DF,
Looking forward to two weeks from now - Bears/Packers @ Soldier Field for the NFC championship. Be a better game, probably, than whatever happens for a Super Bowl ;)
| 258 |
mikey706 Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:48:13pm |
I'm a reader/lurker and rarely post. But this needs to be noted if it hasn't already. This kid sounds like a truther and a 'New World Order' paranoid-schizo. He's an Alex Jones/Paulnut. And Beck for that matter b/c of his Soros/global currency inflammatory rhetoric and constant GOLD peddling.
Excerpt from the linked AP article:
| 259 |
Big Joe Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:48:55pm |
re: #254 prairiefire
Recipe, please.
I assume you mean the sauce cause there's not much recipe for the shoulder, other than the rub I make. Let me find it, it stinks to high heaven as it cooks but it is the most amazing flavor on pulled pork.
| 260 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:49:14pm |
re: #255 Gus 802
For Dick Winters.
gah, I always hated running in the Army but that was one Jody call that would make it worth it.
"To absent friends".
| 261 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:51:46pm |
re: #247 jaunte
brianoflondon just signed in. I wonder what his real town is.
Brian of London? Brian-writing-articles-about-the-EDL-for-Arutz-Sheva-of-London?
| 262 |
Kragar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:51:55pm |
re: #258 mikey706
I'm a reader/lurker and rarely post. But this needs to be noted if it hasn't already. This kid sounds like a truther and a 'New World Order' paranoid-schizo. He's an Alex Jones/Paulnut. And Beck for that matter b/c of his Soros/global currency inflammatory rhetoric and constant GOLD peddling.
Excerpt from the linked AP article:
All his quotes and talking points from his various online rants mirror Tea party, Beck, Ron Paul, and other Wingnut sources.
But he once read the Communist Manifesto, so he is a Lefty.
| 263 |
jamesfirecat Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:52:02pm |
re: #258 mikey706
I'm a reader/lurker and rarely post. But this needs to be noted if it hasn't already. This kid sounds like a truther and a 'New World Order' paranoid-schizo. He's an Alex Jones/Paulnut. And Beck for that matter b/c of his Soros/global currency inflammatory rhetoric and constant GOLD peddling.
Excerpt from the linked AP article:
That's some powerful evidence...
Still I won't draw conclusion yet, but something tells me there might be a lot of spinning going on once this idiot starts spouting off in the process of getting his trial...
| 264 |
prairiefire Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:52:23pm |
re: #259 mracb
I assume you mean the sauce cause there's not much recipe for the shoulder, other than the rub I make. Let me find it, it stinks to high heaven as it cooks but it is the most amazing flavor on pulled pork.
I like the North Carolina style of BBQ with a heavy vinegar base, but I have no recipes for it. Thanks!
| 265 |
jaunte Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:52:36pm |
re: #261 SanFranciscoZionist
I don't know, just saw the nic go by in the Spy.
| 266 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:52:56pm |
re: #255 Gus 802
For Dick Winters.
"Band of Brothers" actually used those lyrics. Gallows humor, the resort of men who take high risk missions. Still, the men of Easy Company carried out those missions as best as any men could have. Godspeed to their valiant leader, and may our nation never lack men of such courage.
| 267 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:53:09pm |
re: #258 mikey706
I'm a reader/lurker and rarely post. But this needs to be noted if it hasn't already. This kid sounds like a truther and a 'New World Order' paranoid-schizo. He's an Alex Jones/Paulnut. And Beck for that matter b/c of his Soros/global currency inflammatory rhetoric and constant GOLD peddling.
Excerpt from the linked AP article:
Fine Mikey... but can I suggest that you stop the Internet Psychologist rap... "paranoid-schizo?" Do you have the mystic ability to diagnose this Jared jerk for long distance, maybe sort of remote-psychology?
You cannot diagnose schizophrenia from reading his website or watching some videos. It take personal and professional observation of the person, and multiple sessions.
Please... stop playing the armchair psychologist, I don't suspect your are qualified to make this statement.
Got it?
| 268 |
Kragar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:54:06pm |
re: #260 wlewisiii
gah, I always hated running in the Army but that was one Jody call that would make it worth it.
"To absent friends".
The one rule my Platoon had except when I was in the infantry. I was not to be called out for cadence in any run involving a Company or larger.
| 269 |
Big Joe Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:54:06pm |
re: #264 prairiefire
I like the North Carolina style of BBQ with a heavy vinegar base, but I have no recipes for it. Thanks!
still looking, oh oh, where did I leave it last?
| 270 |
albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:55:08pm |
re: #255 Gus 802
a fine Lt who was at the right place at the right time to earn his reputation...and his troops loved him and taking the guns at Brecourt Manor was stroke of luck to stumble on and he handled it perfectly, not to mention a fat stash of documents he seized that proved invaluable to the Allies....like a Hollywood movie, but all true
| 271 |
Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:55:24pm |
Rand Paul "eye doctor" takes time out from his busy schedule running Kentucky into the dirt to give us his "expert" psychological opinion on the shooter.
| 272 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:55:29pm |
re: #257 wlewisiii
Hey, DF,
Looking forward to two weeks from now - Bears/Packers @ Soldier Field for the NFC championship. Be a better game, probably, than whatever happens for a Super Bowl ;)
From your lips to God's ears. But first the Packers need to win in Atlanta, and that will be very hard to do.
| 273 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:55:38pm |
re: #247 jaunte
brianoflondon just signed in. I wonder what his real town is.
Thanks for pointing that out. "brianoflondon" is a supporter of the EDL and other European fascists, and he no longer has an account here. He was undoubtedly planning to post a hateful comment.
| 274 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:55:42pm |
Major Richard D. Winters
January 21, 1918 - January 2, 2011
| 275 |
prairiefire Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:56:24pm |
re: #269 mracb
No worries, you can post it when you have a chance to run across it.
| 276 |
CarleeCork Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:57:36pm |
re: #274 Gus 802
Major Richard D. Winters
January 21, 1918 - January 2, 2011
Hey, that's my BD, not the year, but the month and date. Someone you know?
| 278 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:59:41pm |
re: #273 Charles
Thanks for pointing that out. "brianoflondon" is a supporter of the EDL and other European fascists, and he no longer has an account here. He was undoubtedly planning to post a hateful comment.
[loads troll carcass into the Flounceapult]
PULL!
| 279 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:00:27pm |
re: #272 Dark_Falcon
From your lips to God's ears. But first the Packers need to win in Atlanta, and that will be very hard to do.
Probably will be a hard fought game, but in some ways I think today's was the bigger game for them. That rookies running makes the Atlanta game possible though. And don't forget the last time came down to the bitter end. Of course our coach sucks at close games... :(
| 280 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:00:31pm |
re: #277 Killgore Trout
Be nice.
I will defer to your expertise on the mater of schizophrenia then. Sorry.
| 281 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:00:33pm |
re: #276 CarleeCork
Hey, that's my BD, not the year, but the month and date. Someone you know?
Didn't know him. Read more than three books about him. Biographies, general history about WWII (S. Ambrose), and of course Band of Brothers. E Company, 506th PIR, 1st Airborne. Dropped behind the landing zones of Normandy on the 6th of June, 1944.
| 282 |
Kruk Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:01:03pm |
re: #278 Dark_Falcon
[loads troll carcass into the Flounceapult]
PULL!
I can see my hooooouuussseeee!
[Bonus marks to anyone who gets that]
| 284 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:02:16pm |
| 285 |
albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:02:31pm |
re: #281 Gus 802
Didn't know him. Read more than three books about him. Biographies, general history about WWII (S. Ambrose), and of course Band of Brothers. E Company, 506th PIR, 1st Airborne. Dropped behind the landing zones of Normandy on the 6th of June, 1944.
Citizen Soldier is a fine book....very readable
I love Ambrose
| 286 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:02:41pm |
re: #258 mikey706
I'm a reader/lurker and rarely post. But this needs to be noted if it hasn't already. This kid sounds like a truther and a 'New World Order' paranoid-schizo. He's an Alex Jones/Paulnut. And Beck for that matter b/c of his Soros/global currency inflammatory rhetoric and constant GOLD peddling.
Excerpt from the linked AP article:
You used the article well, but Walter does have a point: Leave off the 'schizo' part for now. That shouldn't be used by us. That's a determination for the medical professionals.
| 287 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:03:17pm |
re: #283 CarleeCork
Good man no doubt.
Yes. He was also in Market Garden, Bastogne (Battle of the Bulge) and finally Berchtesgaden.
| 288 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:05:26pm |
re: #282 Kruk
I can see my hooouuussseee!
[Bonus marks to anyone who gets that]
Ned Flanders as Sir Thomas Moore on the Simpsons, after being fired out of a cannon.
| 289 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:05:47pm |
re: #285 albusteve
Citizen Soldier is a fine book...very readable
I love Ambrose
That was probably his best work. A good writer, but as a historian he had serious flaws and a bad tendency to forget where he'd read something. Pity because he usually improved it.
| 290 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:06:02pm |
re: #286 Dark_Falcon
You used the article well, but Walter does have a point: Leave off the 'schizo' part for now. That shouldn't be used by us. That's a determination for the medical professionals.
It doesn't fucking matter. Evidently from the down dings I got, we have people here who have first hand expertise on diagnosing schizophrenia.
It's amazing that certain people can treat schizophrenia lightly, and bandy the word and condition around like it was a common cold or some thing to make fun of even.
Sorry, I don't give two shits about the down dings, I am an informed expert on the topic, and tough titty if some one doesn't like me pointing it out.
Won't fucking stop me.
| 291 |
Kronocide Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:06:35pm |
Glenn Reynold's ed in WSJ is a howler. I don't know if he believes his own BS or pushes propaganda for $.
| 292 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:07:15pm |
re: #282 Kruk
I can see my hooouuussseee!
[Bonus marks to anyone who gets that]
Thankfully, the troll was already dead. Charles brained the rotten thing. But its too late to grill it and its too rancid to freeze, so the Flounceapult was the only option.
| 293 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:07:46pm |
re: #282 Kruk
I can see my hooouuussseee!
[Bonus marks to anyone who gets that]
Ned Flanders, as Sir Thomas More?
| 294 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:08:05pm |
re: #290 Walter L. Newton
You obviously give a shit because you bothered to check and then whined about it. The only reason you pounced is because it was a hatchling/lurker. The same thing has been said countless times already without objection. Be nice to the noobs.
| 295 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:08:34pm |
I'm a little confused because earlier in the day any mention of schizophrenia regarding Jared Loughner was severely frowned upon.
| 296 |
freetoken Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:09:08pm |
re: #291 BigPapa
Well, whether he believes in what he writes or not, Reynolds has gained a measure of success by using lots of words to describe very little substance.
| 297 |
mikey706 Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:09:10pm |
re: #258 mikey706
Don't want to attract a flame war on the diagnosis of schizophrenia! I retract that ad hominem.
| 298 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:09:45pm |
| 299 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:10:11pm |
| 300 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:10:28pm |
re: #295 Gus 802
I'm a little confused because earlier in the day any mention of schizophrenia regarding Jared Loughner was severely frowned upon.
Was it? I have no idea how to diagnose schizophrenia, so I certainly can't weigh in.
| 301 |
Big Joe Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:10:34pm |
re: #275 prairiefire
No worries, you can post it when you have a chance to run across it.
Mustard-Vinegar Sauce
2 cups cider vinegar
1 cup yellow prepared mustard
1 cup brown sugar
3 TB Louisiana hot sauce
2 TB Black pepper
1 TB Worcestershire sauce
1/2 TB salt
bring to a boil, simmer and reduce over heat about 25%
| 302 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:10:41pm |
re: #297 mikey706
Don't want to attract a flame war on the diagnosis of schizophrenia! I retract that ad hominem.
Thank you.
| 303 |
sizzleRI Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:11:19pm |
re: #294 Killgore Trout
In all fairness, I don't love Walter's tactics always. But he has been very consistent on this. I upding it every time because I hate the random diagnoses thrown around on the internet. Mental illness is a real illness. I appreciate someone attacking the armchair bullshit.
| 304 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:11:22pm |
re: #297 mikey706
Don't want to attract a flame war on the diagnosis of schizophrenia! I retract that ad hominem.
Don't worry about it. You'll need a thick skin, don't let the internet tough guys intimidate you.
| 305 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:11:24pm |
re: #297 mikey706
Don't want to attract a flame war on the diagnosis of schizophrenia! I retract that ad hominem.
Thank you. And don't stop posting. Walter can a bit rough if he thinks you're wrong, but he's a really good guy.
| 306 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:12:26pm |
re: #303 sizzleRI
In all fairness, I don't love Walter's tactics always. But he has been very consistent on this. I upding it every time because I hate the random diagnoses thrown around on the internet. Mental illness is a real illness. I appreciate someone attacking the armchair bullshit.
You're nuts.
| 307 |
sizzleRI Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:13:36pm |
| 308 |
Kronocide Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:13:52pm |
re: #296 freetoken
Well, whether he believes in what he writes or not, Reynolds has gained a measure of success by using lots of words to describe very little substance.
There's no substance to what he wrote in the least. I guess he does believe it though.
| 309 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:14:58pm |
re: #306 Killgore Trout
You're nuts.
"People with schizophrenia are far more likely to harm themselves than be violent toward the public. Violence is not a symptom of schizophrenia."
[Link: www.schizophrenia.com...]
| 310 |
God of Binders with Women Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:15:26pm |
Anyone think that Palin's fifteen minutes are up after the premature ejaculation pathetic rifle sights were pulled off that website? I can not wait to hear how Hush, Bannity, and Lips spin this tomorrow.
| 311 |
prairiefire Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:16:00pm |
re: #301 mracb
Mustard-Vinegar Sauce
2 cups cider vinegar
1 cup yellow prepared mustard
1 cup brown sugar
3 TB Louisiana hot sauce
2 TB Black pepper
1 TB Worcestershire sauce
1/2 TB saltbring to a boil, simmer and reduce over heat about 25%
That looks great, thanks!
| 312 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:16:12pm |
re: #303 sizzleRI
In all fairness, I don't love Walter's tactics always. But he has been very consistent on this. I upding it every time because I hate the random diagnoses thrown around on the internet. Mental illness is a real illness. I appreciate someone attacking the armchair bullshit.
Thank you...
| 313 |
prairiefire Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:16:40pm |
re: #310 Kid A
Her approval ratings are going to hit the lows 20's. Night, lizards.
| 314 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:17:43pm |
I'm starting to fade, so i'm going to sign off for the night. Goodnight, all.
| 315 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:17:59pm |
If any of you bother to actually read that link there's a new scoop there that places him with libertarian Alex Jones-Ron Paul-Fox News-wingnuts; 9-11 Truth.
| 316 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:19:06pm |
It should be a scoop worthy of the pages.
| 319 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:29:03pm |
Well. I'm seeing more behavioral problems than ideology. Yes, there is a form of popular ideology present in his rhetoric but his behavioral dysfunction far outweighs that rhetoric. The rhetoric can only be seen, in my view, as small symptom of a larger whole. The external rhetoric can be said to have driven him over the top but that is only because he was susceptible to being driven over the top because of pre-existing behavioral patterns.
| 320 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:30:29pm |
re: #319 Gus 802
Well. I'm seeing more behavioral problems than ideology. Yes, there is a form of popular ideology present in his rhetoric but his behavioral dysfunction far outweighs that rhetoric. The rhetoric can only be seen, in my view, as small symptom of a larger whole. The external rhetoric can be said to have driven him over the top but that is only because he was susceptible to being driven over the top because of pre-existing behavioral patterns.
We've lost ya Gus... too bad :)
| 321 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:31:40pm |
re: #320 Walter L. Newton
We've lost ya Gus... too bad :)
Walter. You know I'm not completely expressing myself here. Yes, I'm a coward. Just don't want to make too many waves.
| 322 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:32:51pm |
re: #321 Gus 802
Walter. You know I'm not completely expressing myself here. Yes, I'm a coward. Just don't want to make too many waves.
I do my fare share for everyone... don't worry :)
| 323 |
albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:34:25pm |
re: #319 Gus 802
Well. I'm seeing more behavioral problems than ideology. Yes, there is a form of popular ideology present in his rhetoric but his behavioral dysfunction far outweighs that rhetoric. The rhetoric can only be seen, in my view, as small symptom of a larger whole. The external rhetoric can be said to have driven him over the top but that is only because he was susceptible to being driven over the top because of pre-existing behavioral patterns.
yup, and all the ensuing agitation and accusations over rightwing rhetoric, the speed to pin this guy down as a TPer drove me off the blog....I could not believe so many violated the 24hr rule..as is wait and see was some sort of escape...a lot of bullshit
| 324 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:34:53pm |
re: #218 Gus 802
We need a new cut of meat. The old red meat isn't working for me anymore.
Bison. It's leaner than both beef and chicken and tastes pretty good, IMO.
| 325 |
Decatur Deb Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:35:56pm |
re: #274 Gus 802
Major Richard D. Winters
January 21, 1918 - January 2, 2011
He leaves us sitting here surrounded by Breitbarts and O'Keefes.
| 326 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:38:32pm |
re: #325 Decatur Deb
He leaves us sitting here surrounded by Breitbarts and O'Keefes.
There was an O'Keefe in Band of Brothers. :)
| 327 |
Decatur Deb Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:41:03pm |
| 329 |
Digital Display Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:41:51pm |
re: #325 Decatur Deb
He leaves us sitting here surrounded by Breitbarts and O'Keefes.
Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio
A nation turns it's lonely eyes to you (Woo, woo, woo)
What's that you say, Mrs. Robinson
Joltin' Joe has left and gone away
(Hey, hey, hey...hey, hey, hey)
| 330 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:42:35pm |
I think this is a good idea...
One of the fiercest gun-control advocates in Congress, Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-N.Y.), pounced on the shooting massacre in Tucson Sunday, promising to introduce legislation as soon as Monday targeting the high-capacity ammunition the gunman used.
McCarthy ran for Congress after her husband was gunned down and her son seriously injured in a shooting in 1993 on a Long Island commuter train.
[Link: www.politico.com...]
And then what... oh... maybe these nut cases show up at events they want to cause chaos at with... well... let's think... I know... a pipe bomb... and they manage to kill 30-40 people in one fell swoop. Yep... gun control will certainly stop nut cases from killing anyone.
| 331 |
lostlakehiker Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:43:15pm |
On the question of whether Loughner was a right-winger, we have several facts from mainstream sources.
On his YouTube page, he listed among his favorite books "Animal Farm" and "Brave New World" — two novels about how authorities control the masses. Other books he listed in the wide-ranging list included "Mein Kampf," "The Communist Manifesto," "Peter Pan" and Aesop's Fables.
Mein Kampf plus Communist Manifesto? That's not RW, it's not LW, it's nutwing.
Loughner, an ardent atheist, began to characterize people as sheep whose free will was being sapped by the monotony of modern life.
"He didn't want people to wake up and do the same thing every day. He wanted more chaos, he wanted less regularity," one friend said.
Ardent atheist? That's not Tea Party.
Source, Yahoo news
Taken all in all, what I see is quite literally a madman. The reason he targeted who he did probably came down to this: he and she were in the same district.
Andrew Klavan's essay. A good essay apart from his (here, somewhat irrelevant, but in any setting, mistaken) potshot at environmentalism.
| 332 |
Decatur Deb Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:43:39pm |
re: #329 HoosierHoops
Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio
A nation turns it's lonely eyes to you (Woo, woo, woo)
What's that you say, Mrs. Robinson
Joltin' Joe has left and gone away
(Hey, hey, hey...hey, hey, hey)
That's way true. My nuns disapproved of a major leaguer because he chewed in front of kids.
| 333 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:45:57pm |
re: #330 Walter L. Newton
I think this is a good idea...
And then what... oh... maybe these nut cases show up at events they want to cause chaos at with... well... let's think... I know... a pipe bomb... and they manage to kill 30-40 people in one fell swoop. Yep... gun control will certainly stop nut cases from killing anyone.
Right. Guns law stopped McVeigh didn't they? Plus, there was also a law banning guns in Fort Hood which should have prevented Major Hasan from kill all of those people. In addition. Anti-gun laws have certain cut down on gun crime while raising knife crimes (murders) to record levels.
| 334 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:46:41pm |
re: #333 Gus 802
Right. Guns law stopped McVeigh didn't they? Plus, there was also a law banning guns in Fort Hood which should have prevented Major Hasan from kill all of those people. In addition.
Anti-gun laws have certain cut down on gun crime while raising knife crimes (murders) to record levels.Anti-gun laws in the UK have certainly cut down on...
PIMF
| 335 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:46:54pm |
re: #319 Gus 802
Well. I'm seeing more behavioral problems than ideology. Yes, there is a form of popular ideology present in his rhetoric but his behavioral dysfunction far outweighs that rhetoric. The rhetoric can only be seen, in my view, as small symptom of a larger whole. The external rhetoric can be said to have driven him over the top but that is only because he was susceptible to being driven over the top because of pre-existing behavioral patterns.
No argument from me. The prevailing issue here is his mental health. However, the real problem isn't Palin's target map or an over the top Tea party sign but fox news and conservative radio broadcast these outlandish conspiracies around the clock, Republican leaders spout bizarre conspiracies about socialism and Cloward Piven. Most normal people take this for the bullshit it is but people with impaired mental capacity take this stuff literally and it gives credibility to their delusions.
This isn't a case of someone misinterpreting Catcher in the Rye . This is delusional people interpreting mainstream media (FOX) and elected officials (republicans) literally.
There have been quite a few Lizards who have shared stories about elderly and vulnerable parents who are exposed to too much fox news in rest homes. The effects can be quite dramatic on people with impaired mental capacities.
| 336 |
freetoken Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:47:59pm |
re: #310 Kid A
In what appears to be an unrelated move, the company that did her "reality" show about Alaska has decided to not do a second season.
| 338 |
Kragar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:50:42pm |
re: #336 freetoken
In what appears to be an unrelated move, the company that did her "reality" show about Alaska has decided to not do a second season.
Probably had more to do with the ratings being crap.
| 339 |
Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:55:04pm |
re: #335 Killgore Trout
There have been quite a few Lizards who have shared stories about elderly and vulnerable parents who are exposed to too much fox news in rest homes. The effects can be quite dramatic on people with impaired mental capacities.
My god that is disturbing.
| 340 |
freetoken Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:58:01pm |
re: #338 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Probably had more to do with the ratings being crap.
My impression was that they started out pretty well.
The actual news blurb said the company wasn't going to send the producer to Alaska... implying that the show wasn't going to get a second season.
More than the ratings I suppose it's just another recognition that fashion, whether political/personality driven or hem lines, is a very transient phenomenon.
| 341 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:58:06pm |
re: #331 lostlakehiker
All of the things you cite are perfectly consistent with an extreme right wing libertarian ideology, of the Ron Paul/Alex Jones variety.
| 342 |
Dancing along the light of day Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:00:31pm |
re: #335 Killgore TroutIt's very common. And hard to fight, unless you visit often.
I finally had to unplug the tevee. It was N0T popular.
| 343 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:01:01pm |
re: #342 Floral Giraffe
It's very common. And hard to fight, unless you visit often.
I finally had to unplug the tevee. It was N0T popular.
The TV in the common room?
| 344 |
albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:03:52pm |
re: #333 Gus 802
Right. Guns law stopped McVeigh didn't they? Plus, there was also a law banning guns in Fort Hood which should have prevented Major Hasan from kill all of those people. In addition. Anti-gun laws have certain cut down on gun crime while raising knife crimes (murders) to record levels.
high cap magazines are for gansters, showboaters and the deranged...they are really inconvenient, screw up the balance of the gun and are generally very low on the gotta have it accessory list...very, very few people would use them, this guy being the rare exception...ammo is the key to CA style gun control...restrict the type and amount you can carry and you effectively reduce gun rights from the back door
there are many studies that show relaxed CC laws reduces crime, and again, so few gun crimes are committed by lawful owners that they cannot be tracked....this horrendous killing is not about guns, it's about one sick individual that flipped out
| 345 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:03:59pm |
re: #335 Killgore Trout
No argument from me. The prevailing issue here is his mental health. However, the real problem isn't Palin's target map or an over the top Tea party sign but fox news and conservative radio broadcast these outlandish conspiracies around the clock, Republican leaders spout bizarre conspiracies about socialism and Cloward Piven. Most normal people take this for the bullshit it is but people with impaired mental capacity take this stuff literally and it gives credibility to their delusions.
This isn't a case of someone misinterpreting Catcher in the Rye . This is delusional people interpreting mainstream media (FOX) and elected officials (republicans) literally.
There have been quite a few Lizards who have shared stories about elderly and vulnerable parents who are exposed to too much fox news in rest homes. The effects can be quite dramatic on people with impaired mental capacities.
And that's also true of the internet at large. The nihilism on Youtube is extremely high. There is a rampant undercurrent of nihilism in many of today's youth and even with adults and political movements. At the same time, mass shootings with no political underpinning are extremely high in American society. I think we're looking at a "Columbine effect" here as well which is an act that I believe was motivated by extreme nihilism. Overall we can't ignore the fact that we live in a highly violent culture even if we remove the current political landscape. Our history is dotted in violence since the first landings of the Europeans.
| 346 |
Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:04:22pm |
My wife and I took were able to care for her mother at home. She just passed away. I'm thankful she didn't have to go to a home.
| 347 |
Decatur Deb Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:04:30pm |
Since the forces that wound-up this nutcase show little or no sign of backing off, it will happen again, soon. So I'll do them a favor and admit to starting a conspiracy to shove it up their asses the next time around.
| 348 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:05:10pm |
re: #341 Charles
All of the things you cite are perfectly consistent with an extreme right wing libertarian ideology, of the Ron Paul/Alex Jones variety.
Another common thread in all his books is that they're generally all paranoid, with others controlling an individual, robbing them of free will:
| 349 |
Shiplord Kirel Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:05:20pm |
re: #331 lostlakehiker
On the question of whether Loughner was a right-winger, we have several facts from mainstream sources.
Mein Kampf plus Communist Manifesto? That's not RW, it's not LW, it's nutwing.
I have copies of all of those books but I don't consider myself a part of the nutwing. I have to admit that Aesop's Fables might raise suspicion though.
| 350 |
Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:05:26pm |
re: #346 Amory Blaine
My wife and I
tookwere able to care for her mother at home. She just passed away. I'm thankful she didn't have to go to a home.
pimf
| 351 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:06:00pm |
re: #345 Gus 802
And that's also true of the internet at large. The nihilism on Youtube is extremely high. There is a rampant undercurrent of nihilism in many of today's youth and even with adults and political movements. At the same time, mass shootings with no political underpinning are extremely high in American society. I think we're looking at a "Columbine effect" here as well which is an act that I believe was motivated by extreme nihilism. Overall we can't ignore the fact that we live in a highly violent culture even if we remove the current political landscape. Our history is dotted in violence since the first landings of the Europeans.
Actually, the history of the Europeans was dotted with violence, too.
| 352 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:06:51pm |
re: #351 EmmmieG
Actually, the history of the Europeans was dotted with violence, too.
I know. All of humanity.
| 353 |
Dancing along the light of day Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:07:01pm |
re: #343 EmmmieG
No, this was the teveee in the bedroom, or the primariry living space, as it were. Dad couldn';t get out of bed, at that point.
| 354 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:08:36pm |
re: #353 Floral Giraffe
No, this was the teveee in the bedroom, or the primariry living space, as it were. Dad couldn';t get out of bed, at that point.
The staff was putting it on Fox? What's wrong with I don't know, Mythbusters?
| 355 |
Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:09:33pm |
I know the clinic I go to has it blasting in the lobby every time I go there.
| 356 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:09:39pm |
Heck. Speaking of violence I remember searching my name here on Google and finding something someone posted about "throwing Gus 802 out a window". I'm sure some of us are familiar with the internet threats. Some more than others.
| 357 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:09:43pm |
So outrageous it'll hurt your placenta...
King Crimson 21st Century Schizoid Man-Hyde Park-1969
| 358 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:11:24pm |
There will now be a pause while we all google our nics.
| 359 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:11:35pm |
re: #358 EmmmieG
There will now be a pause while we all google our nics.
A sentence that would have made no sense 20 years ago.
| 360 |
Dancing along the light of day Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:11:35pm |
re: #354 EmmmieG
LOL! I had a problem that it was on at all.
Man's has a series of strokes, let him rest.
It got taken care of,eventually.
PBS and Nature Shows were OK.
| 361 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:11:59pm |
Glenn Reynolds is one of those guys who looks pretty smart on the surface
and then you actually read his mindless writing and you just go heh okay that guy won the lottery I guess
| 362 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:12:24pm |
re: #360 Floral Giraffe
LOL! I had a problem that it was on at all.
Man's has a series of strokes, let him rest.
It got taken care of,eventually.
PBS and Nature Shows were OK.
My grandmother only had a short time between her stroke and her death.
She mostly had the grandchild channel on.
| 363 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:12:29pm |
re: #358 EmmmieG
There will now be a pause while we all google our nics.
I try not to.
You know what's funny? I was thinking before about this shooting. You know I'm an atheist but I found myself thinking "we need a priest."
| 364 |
Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:12:52pm |
| 365 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:13:01pm |
| 366 |
albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:13:39pm |
for the insomniacs...
American Experience has several excellent videos up for free....nice hour long productions....I'm gonna watch one on the history of whaling in America...
I'm outski
| 367 |
freetoken Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:14:55pm |
re: #361 WindUpBird
Glenn Reynolds is one of those guys who looks pretty smart on the surface
...
I believe the appropriate adjective is "facile".
| 369 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:16:46pm |
| 371 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:20:26pm |
Well, it turns out that Jared Lee Loughner is a registered Republican.
[Link: lauramartin.tumblr.com...]
| 372 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:20:37pm |
| 374 |
Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:21:28pm |
re: #371 Charles
Well, it turns out that Jared Lee Loughner is a registered Republican.
[Link: lauramartin.tumblr.com...]
Wow the meme has been that he's a democrat.
| 375 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:22:59pm |
re: #371 Charles
Well, it turns out that Jared Lee Loughner is a registered Republican.
[Link: lauramartin.tumblr.com...]
Nonsense! I've read from at least a hundred and seven people on Yahoo that he was a registered Democrat, like every other nut in the country.
//
| 376 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:23:37pm |
re: #371 Charles
Well, it turns out that Jared Lee Loughner is a registered Republican.
[Link: lauramartin.tumblr.com...]
Ought they be putting that up? I assume it's the parents' address as well.
| 377 |
Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:25:03pm |
re: #372 Lidane
I love the Flogging Molly version:
[Video]
My favorite Flogging Molly tune: Drunken Lullabies
:)
| 378 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:28:04pm |
Damn, I greeted everyone downthread and began reading.
Walter got a job/gig? How cool is that?
Anyway, now that I figured-out that everyone is up here --HOW is everyone?
| 379 |
Kragar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:28:49pm |
re: #375 SanFranciscoZionist
Nonsense! I've read from at least a hundred and seven people on Yahoo that he was a registered Democrat, like every other nut in the country.
//
Obviously, A Democratic Operative switched his party to attack the Tea Party.
/
| 380 |
Decatur Deb Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:29:46pm |
re: #377 Amory Blaine
My favorite Flogging Molly tune: Drunken Lullabies
[Video]:)
That's a take off from "The Holy Ground". (The Holy Ground seems to have been a famous brothel.)
[Link: www.google.com...]
| 381 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:31:45pm |
re: #377 Amory Blaine
I can never decide on my favorite Flogging Molly song, but this one's gotten a lot of play on my iPod lately:
| 382 |
Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:32:14pm |
re: #376 SanFranciscoZionist
Ought they be putting that up? I assume it's the parents' address as well.
Looks like someone posted the address and phone number at "God Like Productions". That's kind of a sleazy site anyway.
| 383 |
Decatur Deb Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:33:20pm |
re: #382 Gus 802
Looks like someone posted the address and phone number at "God Like Productions". That's kind of a sleazy site anyway.
Information wants to be free.
| 384 |
Jadespring Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:33:27pm |
re: #376 SanFranciscoZionist
Ought they be putting that up? I assume it's the parents' address as well.
Well probably not best practice but I think it's already out of the bag.
I've already seen his address posted elsewhere, earlier today.
It's not hard to search out someones address if you have some details already.
| 385 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:34:05pm |
re: #345 Gus 802
And that's also true of the internet at large. The nihilism on Youtube is extremely high. There is a rampant undercurrent of nihilism in many of today's youth and even with adults and political movements. At the same time, mass shootings with no political underpinning are extremely high in American society. I think we're looking at a "Columbine effect" here as well which is an act that I believe was motivated by extreme nihilism. Overall we can't ignore the fact that we live in a highly violent culture even if we remove the current political landscape. Our history is dotted in violence since the first landings of the Europeans.
Yes, there is a lot of nihilism. There was an interesting "article" on a Sci-Fi podcast I listen to about the "downer" quality to a lot of current Sci-Fi and Young Adult reading material. “The Explosion of Young Adult Dystopias,”. The general dismal nature of the youth is noticed in a lot of different areas. Anyway, I found the podcast interesting.
| 386 |
Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:36:38pm |
re: #380 Decatur Deb
That's a take off from "The Holy Ground". (The Holy Ground seems to have been a famous brothel.)
[Link: www.google.com...]
Yep sounds just like it.
| 387 |
Kragar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:37:22pm |
re: #383 Decatur Deb
Information wants to be free.
I've watched information. It doesn't want to do much of anything except just sit there.
| 388 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:38:54pm |
| 390 |
goddamnedfrank Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:41:19pm |
re: #376 SanFranciscoZionist
Ought they be putting that up? I assume it's the parents' address as well.
I agree, but if one raises an accused mass murderer caught red handed, moving might already be on the agenda. Doesn't make it right, just sayin'.
| 391 |
Decatur Deb Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:42:09pm |
| 392 |
Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:42:41pm |
I don't know how much of a secret it's going to remain.
| 393 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:45:16pm |
It will be interesting to learn if he's been diagnosed or had any treatment.
| 394 |
robdouth Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:52:09pm |
re: #40 BigPapa
Yes but responsible pundits would at least wait a couple days, not run off half-cocked like Michael Daly and Paul Krugman and immediately start laying blame. This is the only decent take I've seen on it. Much better than LGF which immediately linked it to right-wing hate with the "What right wing violent rhetoric" post. It's irresponsible to jump to conclusions. But if I've learned anything from 9/11 to Katrina to this tragedy, it's that there are politicians, pundits, and unfortunately bloggers that will not wait for all the information and start to use the tragedy to further push their own agenda. People forget after a long enough time, so they never have to apologize.
| 395 |
Jadespring Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:53:51pm |
I'm feeling bad. My first reaction to his registration info was 'yes, thank goodness it's R and not D." Would have been okay with 'I' too. Shouldn't be that way but I would just get sick of reading "Commie Manifesto + 'D' we see told yah. Neener, neener. We win! crap.
I am so, so sick of reading dimwits and their Commie M reading talking point everywhere.
Although I'm back on the crappy computer again so I won't be able to surf around to see it right now. :)
| 396 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:54:18pm |
re: #346 Amory Blaine
My wife and I took were able to care for her mother at home. She just passed away. I'm thankful she didn't have to go to a home.
My Dad died in November and my Mom's dementia has progressed since. I'm seriously thinking she may not know who I am in a year. Luckily, they have all their paperwork in order, I just have to follow-thru.
A Living Trust is a wonderful thing.
| 397 |
robdouth Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:54:40pm |
re: #394 robdouth
This is the only decent take I've seen on the shootings. everyone could learn a little from this article. It's spot on. Don't condone violent rhetoric, but don't pin this on anyone irresponsibly. Unfortunately that doesn't fit into most pundit/bloggers agendas.
| 398 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:56:26pm |
re: #330 Walter L. Newton
I think this is a good idea...
And then what... oh... maybe these nut cases show up at events they want to cause chaos at with... well... let's think... I know... a pipe bomb... and they manage to kill 30-40 people in one fell swoop. Yep... gun control will certainly stop nut cases from killing anyone.
There are already people changing their profile pics on facebook to a symbol of a gun with a red line thru it. Knee-jerk response I suppose.
| 399 |
Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:56:50pm |
re: #394 robdouth
If another democrat is shot will you reconsider your position?
| 400 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:58:08pm |
re: #395 Jadespring
I am so, so sick of reading dimwits and their Commie M reading talking point everywhere.
That has to be one of the dumbest talking points out there, along with the ones about him smoking weed, or the tweets from someone who hadn't even seen or talked to the guy in years.
| 401 |
ozbloke Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:58:16pm |
re: #394 robdouth
Yes but responsible pundits would at least wait a couple days, not run off half-cocked like Michael Daly and Paul Krugman and immediately start laying blame. This is the only decent take I've seen on it. Much better than LGF which immediately linked it to right-wing hate with the "What right wing violent rhetoric" post. It's irresponsible to jump to conclusions. But if I've learned anything from 9/11 to Katrina to this tragedy, it's that there are politicians, pundits, and unfortunately bloggers that will not wait for all the information and start to use the tragedy to further push their own agenda. People forget after a long enough time, so they never have to apologize.
So in all the haste, is there anything Charles has written that is incorrect?
| 402 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:59:29pm |
re: #398 ggt
There are already people changing their profile pics on facebook to a symbol of a gun with a red line thru it. Knee-jerk response I suppose.
Like I said earlier, we do this when there's been a notable shooting. It upsets people.
In this case, I have to say, I don't think there's a gun law on earth that could have stopped this one.
| 403 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:59:49pm |
re: #401 ozbloke
So in all the haste, is there anything Charles has written that is incorrect?
Charles didn't immediately ignore the political environment this kid was surrounded by in Arizona, or the heated rhetoric of the last two years. Clearly, that was the wrong thing to do, since gunmen totally exist in a vacuum and have no outside influences that guide their actions. Ever.
| 404 |
Jadespring Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:00:27pm |
re: #400 Lidane
That has to be one of the dumbest talking points out there, along with the ones about him smoking weed, or the tweets from someone who hadn't even seen or talked to the guy in years.
Yep. I agree.
| 405 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:00:46pm |
re: #402 SanFranciscoZionist
Like I said earlier, we do this when there's been a notable shooting. It upsets people.
In this case, I have to say, I don't think there's a gun law on earth that could have stopped this one.
One one that would severely impact all American's civil rights.
| 406 |
robdouth Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:01:26pm |
re: #399 Amory Blaine
If another democrat is shot by someone who is a nihlist I'd have the same position. Don't condone, and in fact speak out against violent rhetoric, but for god's sake don't use a tragedy like this as a political prop. It's sick, and Krugman of all people should have a little more decency. Blaming this on heated rhetoric before Giffords has even recovered and is out of the woods is political opportunism at it's worst. Yes we should have less violent rhetoric, but don't make a political prop out of 6 dead and one congresswoman fighting to survive. Granted it's not nearly as disgusting as calling Palin the victim, but I expect nothing from that side. I expect a modicum of journalistic integrity from mainstream pundits.
| 407 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:01:57pm |
re: #402 SanFranciscoZionist
In this case, I have to say, I don't think there's a gun law on earth that could have stopped this one.
It wouldn't have. His gun was bought legally, IIRC.And even if he couldn't have bought guns legally, he'd have gone underground, since he was determined to target Giffords.
| 408 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:03:40pm |
re: #406 robdouth
Don't condone, and in fact speak out against violent rhetoric, but for god's sake don't use a tragedy like this as a political prop.
Because a member of Congress getting shot in the head at point blank range isn't a political event. It's just a random shooting.
///
| 409 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:04:49pm |
re: #406 robdouth
If another democrat is shot by someone who is a nihlist I'd have the same position. Don't condone, and in fact speak out against violent rhetoric, but for god's sake don't use a tragedy like this as a political prop. It's sick, and Krugman of all people should have a little more decency. Blaming this on heated rhetoric before Giffords has even recovered and is out of the woods is political opportunism at it's worst. Yes we should have less violent rhetoric, but don't make a political prop out of 6 dead and one congresswoman fighting to survive. Granted it's not nearly as disgusting as calling Palin the victim, but I expect nothing from that side. I expect a modicum of journalistic integrity from mainstream pundits.
Something like this is viewed as an opportunity by some--always has been, always will be.
| 410 |
Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:05:13pm |
re: #406 robdouth
I didn't know lobbying to turn down the rhetoric is a political prop.
| 411 |
robdouth Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:05:43pm |
re: #401 ozbloke
No, it's not that he was incorrect, but by immediately harping on the violent rhetoric talking point and pointing at the right-wing, it implies causation when as more information becomes available, it seems there is no good cause and this kid was a disturbed, nihlistic nutjob.
What I'm saying is for decency sake let the dead be buried before you use this as a political bludgeon whether you are correct or not. It's an argument for decency, not a claim of inaccuracy.
| 412 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:07:05pm |
re: #410 Amory Blaine
I didn't know lobbying to turn down the rhetoric is a political prop.
Of course it is. How dare anyone talk about politics when a member of Congress gets shot in the head at point blank range after two years of violent, heated political rhetoric. Have you no decency?
///
| 413 |
robdouth Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:07:38pm |
re: #410 Amory Blaine
No, but laying this blame at the feat of your political opponents, when it later seems that is no clear causation is irresponsible at best and smacks of opportunism
| 414 |
goddamnedfrank Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:08:07pm |
re: #402 SanFranciscoZionist
Like I said earlier, we do this when there's been a notable shooting. It upsets people.
In this case, I have to say, I don't think there's a gun law on earth that could have stopped this one.
His parents should have had him involuntarily committed. If his college classmates and school were that alarmed by his behavior, it's hard for me to believe that he wasn't throwing up red flags by the dozens at home.
| 415 |
robdouth Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:08:42pm |
re: #412 Lidane
So pointing fingers and finding someone to blame no matter how indirectly doesn't add to the divisiveness?
| 416 |
Decatur Deb Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:08:48pm |
When I'm on the train tracks, and something runs over me from behind, I always allow for the possibility of buffaloes.
| 417 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:09:16pm |
I was trying to find some of the Civil War propaganda references. The political rhetoric was sooo horrible then. I did find this.. I think we have learned a bit since then. But, we are what we are.
| 418 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:09:44pm |
re: #415 robdouth
So pointing fingers and finding someone to blame no matter how indirectly doesn't add to the divisiveness?
By your logic, we should never, ever look at any exposure to violent, heated rhetoric when a suicide bomber takes out a marketplace of innocent people. We should just call them crazy and ignore the politics and any outside influences. I mean, after all, they were clearly just mentally unstable and otherwise existed in a vacuum. Right?
| 419 |
robdouth Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:10:17pm |
re: #414 goddamnedfrank
Yeah but the articles make it sound like his descent was gradual over the last few months. If he was living alone and not at home anymore (I haven't seen if he was or not) is it possible no one was there to see the signs in person (even though the signs were all over his myspace page)
| 420 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:10:31pm |
re: #414 goddamnedfrank
His parents should have had him involuntarily committed. If his college classmates and school were that alarmed by his behavior, it's hard for me to believe that he wasn't throwing up red flags by the dozens at home.
Yeah. He probably was.
But they may have trusted bad medical advice, or not known what to do. Mental illness is still so taboo and frightening that people make bad choices a lot.
This is assuming he actually is mentally ill, as opposed to simply nuts.
| 421 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:11:27pm |
re: #414 goddamnedfrank
His parents should have had him involuntarily committed. If his college classmates and school were that alarmed by his behavior, it's hard for me to believe that he wasn't throwing up red flags by the dozens at home.
It's difficult to commit someone in most states. In Illinois, iirc, someone can only be held for 48 hours against their will, IF they are a clear and present danger to themselves or someone else.
There were a lot of abusers that used the mental health system in the past to deny individuals their rights AND it's also a funding issue.
| 422 |
Dancing along the light of day Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:12:12pm |
re: #396 ggt
Good luck to you.
That is a hard journey.
The book, "the 36 hour day" might help you with you decisions.
It has helped me a lot.
| 423 |
ozbloke Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:12:20pm |
re: #411 robdouth
No, it's not that he was incorrect, but by immediately harping on the violent rhetoric talking point and pointing at the right-wing, it implies causation when as more information becomes available, it seems there is no good cause and this kid was a disturbed, nihlistic nutjob.
What I'm saying is for decency sake let the dead be buried before you use this as a political bludgeon whether you are correct or not. It's an argument for decency, not a claim of inaccuracy.
Can you point me to where Charles was 'harping on'?
Have you read the all the threads over the past two days, there is quite a bit of info out now.
Can you tell me if Jarred was a Muslim where you think the nutter right would be right now.
To access information as it is found and discuss the different aspects of it, and where each piece fits on a political spectrum isn't wrong is it?
| 424 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:12:54pm |
re: #422 Floral Giraffe
Good luck to you.
That is a hard journey.
The book, "the 36 hour day" might help you with you decisions.
It has helped me a lot.
THanks, I've read it already and it is wonderful!
| 425 |
robdouth Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:13:36pm |
re: #418 Lidane
really I didn't make it clear by saying that we should let the dead be buried before we go making political points, and you took that to mean never? Are you stupid or just ignoring those points that make your argument weaker. Did I say we should condone this rhetoric. Did I say the people using this violent rhetoric was correct? No, in fact I said the opposite, but it's disgusting to make political points this quickly when the extent, if there is any of the "rhetoric caused this" argument is correct. The more information comes out, the less strong the connection is. Doesn't that say to you that while the rhetoric is indeed heated, it's irresponsible to say assinine things like "her blood is on Palin's hands"?
| 426 |
Kronocide Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:14:03pm |
re: #394 robdouth
Yes but responsible pundits would at least wait a couple days, not run off half-cocked like Michael Daly and Paul Krugman and immediately start laying blame. This is the only decent take I've seen on it. Much better than LGF which immediately linked it to right-wing hate with the "What right wing violent rhetoric" post. It's irresponsible to jump to conclusions. But if I've learned anything from 9/11 to Katrina to this tragedy, it's that there are politicians, pundits, and unfortunately bloggers that will not wait for all the information and start to use the tragedy to further push their own agenda. People forget after a long enough time, so they never have to apologize.
It's absolutely acceptable for all of here to accept some assumptions, which we have, but that does not mean we're jumping to conclusions. I see that happening, but not here. For the most part we're waiting to see further.
I also see a lot of covering assess, equivocations, and missing the point.
| 428 |
goddamnedfrank Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:15:20pm |
From their neighbor's account, I'm just seeing a portrait of flat affect people raising a virtual stranger.
| 429 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:15:59pm |
re: #425 robdouth
The more information comes out, the less strong the connection is. Doesn't that say to you that while the rhetoric is indeed heated, it's irresponsible to say assinine things like "her blood is on Palin's hands"?
Ah. So now we're getting to the issue. This isn't about the fact that Charles and others have pointed out the heated rhetoric and violent imagery that has come from the far right over the past two years. It's that Caribou Barbie got her feelings hurt.
I don't recall anyone here, in the thousands of posts on this shooting, saying that any blood was directly on Palin's hands. Links, please?
| 430 |
robdouth Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:16:31pm |
re: #423 ozbloke
I'm glad you made that point. If he were muslim, the right would indeed be making those points even if his faith had nothign to do with the attack. And would they be right? absolutely not, are you saying they would be right? because I think it's a very apt comparison and I think neither is right.
| 431 |
Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:20:08pm |
re: #413 robdouth
No, but laying this blame at the feat of your political opponents, when it later seems that is no clear causation is irresponsible at best and smacks of opportunism
I don't come to the conclusion that there is no clear causation like you have. I see a building possibility that there may be.
| 432 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:20:25pm |
re: #425 robdouth
really I didn't make it clear by saying that we should let the dead be buried before we go making political points, and you took that to mean never? Are you stupid or just ignoring those points that make your argument weaker. Did I say we should condone this rhetoric. Did I say the people using this violent rhetoric was correct? No, in fact I said the opposite, but it's disgusting to make political points this quickly when the extent, if there is any of the "rhetoric caused this" argument is correct. The more information comes out, the less strong the connection is. Doesn't that say to you that while the rhetoric is indeed heated, it's irresponsible to say assinine things like "her blood is on Palin's hands"?
Let's see. You originally posted at #394 referencing post #40 and you made a thinly veiled snipe at Charles. #40 was early in the thread, and it is often likely the poster is no longer on-line to reply and the thread has moved-on to a different topic. Your point would have been crystal clear if you had written only one sentence. And, frankly, any snipe at Charles makes you bait.
Having fun yet?
| 433 |
robdouth Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:21:21pm |
re: #429 Lidane
Never accused anyone here. In fact if you read my first post I was calling out Krugman and Michael Daly. It was the latter who specifically titled the post of his column as such:
Again the question is not whether or not the points are even accurate. The point is that rushing to judgements and pointing fingers before all the facts are in is irresponsible and opportunistic. That's my point. IT's like rushing to get gun control laws in the wake of this tragedy. It's sick.
| 434 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:21:42pm |
| 435 |
Kronocide Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:22:27pm |
re: #406 robdouth
If another democrat is shot by someone who is a nihlist I'd have the same position. Don't condone, and in fact speak out against violent rhetoric, but for god's sake don't use a tragedy like this as a political prop. It's sick, and Krugman of all people should have a little more decency. Blaming this on heated rhetoric before Giffords has even recovered and is out of the woods is political opportunism at it's worst.
Cry me a fucking river about jumping to conclusions and more decency. Send a letter to Glenn Reynolds and Jim Hoft. Nobody here is using this as a 'political prop.'
| 436 |
eltito Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:22:43pm |
I can't understand why anybody would bother trying to categorize this guy into any political ideology at all. You'd probably have better luck with the Boston Terrier currently licking his butt on the bed next to me.
He's nuts. I seriously doubt he's even able to comprehend what he did, much less why he did it. Like I said earlier today, there's no accounting for insanity. People want to try to make sense of this, so they flail around trying to shove the guy into this or that little box. Good luck with that.
And the undertone that seems to be running through all of this - that political speech should be...what, exactly? regulated? censored? - is a bit chilling.
| 437 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:23:07pm |
| 438 |
ozbloke Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:23:24pm |
re: #430 robdouth
I'm glad you made that point. If he were muslim, the right would indeed be making those points even if his faith had nothign to do with the attack. And would they be right? absolutely not, are you saying they would be right? because I think it's a very apt comparison and I think neither is right.
Frankly I don't think we need to go there, as the right was blaming the left within hours, see the Shrieking Harpy et al.
Were you going to link to where Charles was 'harping on' for me, I missed that part.
| 439 |
Dancing along the light of day Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:24:02pm |
re: #436 eltito
So, what do you think is going on ?
| 440 |
robdouth Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:24:12pm |
re: #433 robdouth
Also I hope this helps end Palin's political career, but as she's going down I'd love to throw on Daly and his ilk, because people who will use this tragedy as a weapon within a day of it happening deserve to be shown the same door.
But if you want to paint me as a Palin supporter, I guess you need a good straw-man to attack.
| 441 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:24:21pm |
re: #431 Amory Blaine
I don't come to the conclusion that there is no clear causation like you have. I see a building possibility that there may be.
I strongly believe there is a link. I don't think anyone specifically whispered in this kid's ear telling him to shoot anyone, since there's no proof of that, but the idea that he existed in a vacuum away from all the poisonous rhetoric of the last two years, especially living in Arizona, is total bullshit.
| 442 |
eltito Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:24:45pm |
re: #439 Floral Giraffe
Opportunism. On both sides. Sickening.
| 443 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:25:11pm |
re: #436 eltito
I can't understand why anybody would bother trying to categorize this guy into any political ideology at all.
Because he shot a member of Congress in the head at point blank range, and there's evidence emerging that he specifically targeted her. THAT'S why.
| 444 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:26:09pm |
re: #423 ozbloke
Can you tell me if Jarred was a Muslim where you think the nutter right would be right now.
This is something I've been thinking of. The situations in which people think it's justified and not justified to jump to the obvious conclusion, or the conclusion that best suits your idea of the world.
I've tried to be careful with jumping to conclusions about this case--and at this hour, I'm still not totally sure what I make of the evidence we have. If this association with American Renaissance turns out to be anything substantial, that will sway me one way, if he makes any sort of more coherent statement for his reasons...
But my first thought was 'Oh God, it's a 'Second Amendment remedy', and there are reasons for that. Frankly, this last year, a lot of people with firm toe-holds in the mainstream right wing have been egging their followers on to be afraid, and to be armed.
And the uniformity and smoothness of the deflect-and-blame mode the RRW went into scared the hell out of me.
And I have absolutely no illusion that they, the RRW, would have had an ounce of self-control if someone had shot a Republican, or if the shooter had had an Arab name.
So this is hard for me. I don't want to add to the rhetoric. I don't want to pile fuel on the fire. But there's an old saying that you're not paranoid if they really are out to get you.
The rhetoric hasn't just made right wing radicals afraid. It's made me afraid. And I think that I have every right to be.
| 445 |
robdouth Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:26:27pm |
re: #435 BigPapa
That's your argument. Just cast your opponent as a whiner, so you don't have to address the issue. Did you not see the part where I said Reynolds and Hoft are far worse. I then said I don't expect anything from them. I expect more from the side I tend to agree with. I don't take a win or score political points at any costs strategy.
| 446 |
Dancing along the light of day Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:26:43pm |
| 447 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:27:01pm |
re: #442 eltito
Boo fucking hoo.
People are trying to figure out the politics behind why someone would shoot a member of Congress? Shocking!
| 448 |
eltito Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:27:11pm |
re: #443 Lidane
Because he shot a member of Congress in the head at point blank range, and there's evidence emerging that he specifically targeted her. THAT'S why.
For reasons that he's probably not capable of understanding. It's like blaming calling a dog a wingnut for biting a democrat. No difference whatsoever.
As I see it anyway.
| 449 |
Decatur Deb Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:27:30pm |
re: #443 Lidane
Because he shot a member of Congress in the head at point blank range, and there's evidence emerging that he specifically targeted her. THAT'S why.
You must understand that Princip was just a random nut, and that whole WWI thing was just an unfortunate misunderstanding.
| 450 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:28:14pm |
re: #446 Floral Giraffe
And why do you think that?
Human nature --we are what we are. Sometimes it is disgusting. Easier to accept it, ignore it if it is not irresponsible to do so and move on.
| 451 |
robdouth Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:28:20pm |
re: #444 SanFranciscoZionist
bravo to you, as I'm in the same boat. It would be nice if this was the extent of the coverage in the wake of this tragedy, but people can't seem to scramble over themselves fast enough to link this person to one ideology or another.
| 452 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:29:02pm |
re: #448 eltito
Bullshit. He knew what he was doing.
Being a raving wingnut nutjob =/= being criminally insane. He had enough foresight to plan this ahead of time, or have you missed that part of the story?
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
| 453 |
Kronocide Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:29:16pm |
re: #436 eltito
And the undertone that seems to be running through all of this - that political speech should be...what, exactly? regulated? censored? - is a bit chilling.
Where did you read or see that?
Talk about jumping to conclusions.
| 454 |
Dancing along the light of day Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:29:44pm |
re: #444 SanFranciscoZionist
Please don't be askeered!
We will find a way.
This is America, land of the free, home of the brave.
| 455 |
eltito Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:30:47pm |
re: #447 Lidane
Boo fucking hoo.
People are trying to figure out the politics behind why someone would shoot a member of Congress? Shocking!
I'm not sure I'm making my point well enough.
Politics was not his motivation, insanity was. Politics can't motivate a person incapable of comprehending them.
| 456 |
Dancing along the light of day Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:31:17pm |
Sleepy times.
Have at the trolls,
Night all..
| 457 |
robdouth Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:31:28pm |
re: #449 Decatur Deb
See this is just ridiculous. You can't compare an event with years and years of analysis where it's clear in hindsight what the motive is, to an event where details continue to emerge. And not many details had emerged before pundits went to press last night with their articles for today.
| 458 |
eltito Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:31:38pm |
re: #452 Lidane
Bullshit. He knew what he was doing.
Being a raving wingnut nutjob =/= being criminally insane. He had enough foresight to plan this ahead of time, or have you missed that part of the story?
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
You're giving him way too much credit.
| 459 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:31:47pm |
re: #455 eltito
Politics was not his motivation, insanity was.
Bullshit. He'd been planning this for some time. The evidence against him shows clear premeditation.
| 460 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:32:07pm |
| 461 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:32:25pm |
re: #444 SanFranciscoZionist
I think we are in a time of great change, the whole world is. Better to be aware, it lessens the fear. Some people cannot handle change at the level we are experiencing it. Some of them will react violently. So, yes, I can see why you are afraid.
As long as we can keep people employed and fed, I feel we'll not see the levels of violence some of the rhetoric implies.
| 462 |
eltito Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:33:00pm |
re: #459 Lidane
Bullshit. He'd been planning this for some time. The evidence against him shows clear premeditation.
What was the basis for his premeditation, exactly?
| 463 |
Decatur Deb Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:33:20pm |
To quote my autistic grand-daughter: "I am done with this elephant."
'Nite, all.
| 464 |
Kronocide Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:33:46pm |
re: #440 robdouth
.... because people who will use this tragedy as a weapon within a day of it happening deserve to be shown the same door.
I have one question: can anybody speculate or write about what happened and the possible reasons for it without being accused of 'using it as a weapon' or making political points?
It seems like a fallacy to make the case that if you comment, then your are making political points. What is being said and how it's being said count way more than if something is being said at all.
| 465 |
ClaudeMonet Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:33:59pm |
re: #247 jaunte
brianoflondon just signed in. I wonder what his real town is.
London, KY?
London, OH?
| 466 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:34:01pm |
re: #455 eltito
I'm not sure I'm making my point well enough.
Politics was not his motivation, insanity was. Politics can't motivate a person incapable of comprehending them.
eh, fine line. If he was/is delusional, and acting on political motivation . . . .. Depends on the legal and medical definition of such things, I guess.
| 467 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:34:56pm |
re: #463 Decatur Deb
To quote my autistic grand-daughter: "I am done with this elephant."
'Nite, all.
Is it time for elephant jokes?
Hopefully not. :)
| 468 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:34:57pm |
re: #433 robdouth
Never accused anyone here. In fact if you read my first post I was calling out Krugman and Michael Daly. It was the latter who specifically titled the post of his column as such:
Again the question is not whether or not the points are even accurate. The point is that rushing to judgements and pointing fingers before all the facts are in is irresponsible and opportunistic. That's my point. IT's like rushing to get gun control laws in the wake of this tragedy. It's sick.
I think Krugman's column is solid. I've never heard of Daly before, and his column is overwrought and clearly written without much knowledge of the case.
| 469 |
Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:35:13pm |
At what point would it be responsible to examine the possible effects of violent right wing rhetoric?
| 470 |
robdouth Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:35:20pm |
re: #452 Lidane
wow, where is the evidence he is a wingnut, that's just as irresponsible as calling him a communist. He was anti-immigration, atheist, anarchist, believed 9/11 was in inside job. and claimed one of his biggest complaints with Giffords was the literacy rate in her district. I didn't know that was card carrying wignut territory. So Mein Kampf + Karl Marx + Too Kill a Mockingbird + George Orwell = wingnut nutjob.
Well I'll steer clear of those books. Oh shit I guess I'm screwed because I've read all of those except Mein Kampf.
| 471 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:37:19pm |
re: #469 Amory Blaine
At what point would it be responsible to examine the possible effects of violent right wing rhetoric?
When a Republican gets shot and/or killed, apparently.
Clearly, if you try to examine why a Democratic congresswoman from Arizona gets shot in the head at point blank range, and you talk about the heated right wing rhetoric and violent imagery of the last two years, you're just being political.
| 472 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:37:26pm |
re: #436 eltito
I can't understand why anybody would bother trying to categorize this guy into any political ideology at all. You'd probably have better luck with the Boston Terrier currently licking his butt on the bed next to me.
He's nuts. I seriously doubt he's even able to comprehend what he did, much less why he did it. Like I said earlier today, there's no accounting for insanity. People want to try to make sense of this, so they flail around trying to shove the guy into this or that little box. Good luck with that.
And the undertone that seems to be running through all of this - that political speech should be...what, exactly? regulated? censored? - is a bit chilling.
No one is calling for political speech to be either regulated or censored.
People have suggested that this is a good time for people to reconsider the kind of language they've been using. I quite agree.
I do not have high hopes.
| 473 |
Kronocide Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:39:33pm |
re: #445 robdouth
That's your argument. Just cast your opponent as a whiner, so you don't have to address the issue. Did you not see the part where I said Reynolds and Hoft are far worse.
No I missed your comment about Reynolds and Hoft but you did make a comment about Charles/LGF.
What is the issue? That we aren't supposed to talk about this or we're making points, being 'sickening?' Bullshit. I'm not going to any funeral so I can talk about whatever I want, especially people who talk about jumping to conclusions or 'he's just crazy.' I find it every bit as sicking that you would complain about jumping to conclusions when some information is known and yet we are discussing it within context without jumping to conclusions.
| 474 |
ozbloke Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:40:48pm |
re: #470 robdouth
Can you tell me why is ok for you to claim he is a disturbed, nihlistic nutjob?
| 475 |
Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:41:00pm |
re: #472 SanFranciscoZionist
It's too much to ask that our airwaves not be polluted with calling people insects on their own.
| 476 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:41:16pm |
re: #473 BigPapa
What is the issue? That we aren't supposed to talk about this or we're making points, being 'sickening?' Bullshit.
Didn't you know? Talking about politics when a member of Congress gets shot in the head is a bad thing. We're not supposed to do it at all, lest some other political figures get their feelings hurt. =P
| 477 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:41:44pm |
Wiki on Rhetoric says that Socrates tried to improve human character thru good speech.
LOL, perhaps if Rhetoric was a course(s) most college students actually attended . . . .
In ggt's perfect world, every student would be required to take at least Rhetoric 101 and 102.
| 478 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:42:01pm |
re: #448 eltito
For reasons that he's probably not capable of understanding. It's like blaming calling a dog a wingnut for biting a democrat. No difference whatsoever.
As I see it anyway.
A dog doesn't plan to bite, nor can it understand political parties. This guy had a plan, a weapon, extensive writings. He may be mentally ill, but mentally ill people don't live in vacuums, or not have political thoughts and ideas.
We'll see if anyone can make sense out of what he thought he was doing.
| 479 |
robdouth Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:42:02pm |
re: #469 Amory Blaine
Well since it's impossible to quantify its effects, it seems like pointless conjecture, at least directly in the wake of it when it's not clear he's a cookie-cutter tea-party loyalist. It especially looks silly as it becomes more apparent that he was not directed by "heated rhetoric" but more by a combination of insanity and half-baked political theories that ranged all over the spectrum from left to right to libertarian to anarchist to nihlist. If that is a clear picture and you want to stake you reputation as a journalist on that, you'll lose a lot of credibility. I'm sure Daly will in the wake of his article. Obviously you are not a journalist, so by all means conjecture away, but it's meaningless anyway.
Someone mentioned the assassination attempt on Reagan upthread. Does this mean that Jodi Foster should have been held to task for her anti-Reagan rhetoric, or should we just note that Hinkley was a nutjob who was obsessed with someone who just happened to disgaree with Reagan's policies? Or was that the result of a climate of heated rhetoric?
| 480 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:43:44pm |
re: #454 Floral Giraffe
Please don't be askeered!
We will find a way.
This is America, land of the free, home of the brave.
Thanks.
I'm OK, I'm not hiding from Los Zetas or the Tea Party in my house--but I realized when I saw the headline with Giffords how afraid I had been that something very like this would happen.
We'll muddle through. We always do.
| 481 |
ClaudeMonet Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:43:58pm |
re: #346 Amory Blaine
My wife and I took were able to care for her mother at home. She just passed away. I'm thankful she didn't have to go to a home.
My condolences. I hope she went peacefully and without pain.
| 482 |
Kronocide Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:44:00pm |
re: #469 Amory Blaine
At what point would it be responsible to examine the possible effects of violent right wing rhetoric?
Never, because he's just insane and LEFT WING VIOLENCE 11ty!!!
Otherwise we're just making political points.
Riiight.
| 483 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:44:27pm |
re: #455 eltito
I'm not sure I'm making my point well enough.
Politics was not his motivation, insanity was. Politics can't motivate a person incapable of comprehending them.
I've known some people on both ends of the political spectrum who might prove you wrong. :)
| 484 |
robdouth Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:44:29pm |
re: #471 Lidane
No, but if you immediately jump to that conclusion when the evidence doesn't support it very well, you will be seen that way yes. When the evidence says he complained about literacy rates, does that sound like a GOP calling card? The accurate claim would be that he was crazy and held multiple conflicting political views. He also had something personally against Giffords, which doesn't make sense, because she's a well liked Democrat here in AZ.
| 485 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:45:39pm |
I'm going to quote John Cole again, because he sums it up nicely:
Want to watch a Republican freak out? Utter the following statement:
“This shooting demonstrates that we really need to tone down the violent political rhetoric.”
Then watch the freakout begin, even though there is nothing partisan or pointed about that statement. “Why are you pointing fingers? Both sides do it! Why are you blaming Sarah Palin?”
And then my personal favorite: “He was just crazy!”
No shit. You have to be crazy to walk into a crowd of people and start spraying bullets, killing a bunch of elderly people and a little kid. That is crazy.
The point we have been trying to make for the last couple of years is that Republicans need to stop whipping up crazy people with violent political rhetoric. This is really not a hard concept to follow. There are crazy people out there. Stop egging them on.
[Link: www.balloon-juice.com...]
| 486 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:45:48pm |
re: #462 eltito
What was the basis for his premeditation, exactly?
He apparently wrote down that he would assassinate Giffords, he bought a weapon, he took himself to an event she was speaking at.
| 487 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:46:03pm |
re: #463 Decatur Deb
To quote my autistic grand-daughter: "I am done with this elephant."
'Nite, all.
That is an excellent phrase. How old is she?
| 488 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:46:52pm |
re: #467 ggt
Is it time for elephant jokes?
Hopefully not. :)
If you check Zooborns, there is a zoo in Germany that currently has five baby elephants at the same time. It's very very cute.
| 489 |
Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:48:23pm |
re: #479 robdouth
It hasn't even been a couple of days and you've reached conclusions about his entire motive and psychological state. Who is reaching for conclusions here?
| 490 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:48:43pm |
re: #488 SanFranciscoZionist
If you check Zooborns, there is a zoo in Germany that currently has five baby elephants at the same time. It's very very cute.
I saw that! soooo cute. I get their emails. I make my husband come to the computer to look at the baby pictures. He totally doesn't appreciate it. All because of Charles original links.
teehee
| 491 |
Kronocide Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:49:24pm |
It's Magical Balance MegaFairyageddon here on LGF.
| 492 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:49:28pm |
re: #484 robdouth
No, but if you immediately jump to that conclusion when the evidence doesn't support it very well, you will be seen that way yes.
Cry me a fucking river.
The last two years have had some of the most over the top, violent shit being spewed on the right, calling Democrats enemies of humanity, traitors to America, and all sorts of other garbage. We've had talk of Second Amendment remedies and being armed and dangerous from mainstream GOP pols. And you wonder why anyone to the left of Attila the Hun wonders about the politics of a Democratic congresswoman getting shot?
| 493 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:51:02pm |
I gotta sleep.
Have a great morning/day all!
| 494 |
goddamnedfrank Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:52:22pm |
re: #478 SanFranciscoZionist
A dog doesn't plan to bite, nor can it understand political parties. This guy had a plan, a weapon, extensive writings. He may be mentally ill, but mentally ill people don't live in vacuums, or not have political thoughts and ideas.
We'll see if anyone can make sense out of what he thought he was doing.
Dogs don't get all bunged up about currency standards.
| 495 |
robdouth Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:53:43pm |
re: #489 Amory Blaine
Actually the opposite is true. Lidane and you seem to have him figured out. I've said repeatedly that he's obviously unstable (not really controversial since everyone is in agreement on that) and I've said his political ideology was a mess. It's a combination of paradoxical viewpoints. Lidane calls him a wingnut assuming right wing. That's a definitive statement. I've said it's unclear, which leaves all options open. One of his classmates called him left wing, but that doesn't make it true. If you have so many people saying he's one or the other, doesn't that prove my point that it's unclear. And how is saying his political motive is unclear pass for claiming to know his mindset and motives. I'm saying the exact opposite and you can't get that?
| 496 |
eltito Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:55:13pm |
re: #472 SanFranciscoZionist
No one is calling for political speech to be either regulated or censored.
People have suggested that this is a good time for people to reconsider the kind of language they've been using. I quite agree.
I do not have high hopes.
I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to build straw men. It wasn't a rhetorical question. I'm just trying to get a sense of what, exactly, people want to come out of this and why.
| 497 |
Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:55:23pm |
re: #495 robdouth
If he turns out to be a left winger, is it still wrong to call for turning down the rhetoric?
| 499 |
Kronocide Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:56:25pm |
AGW study and climate models will never predict an actual temperature on a day, a storm happening, a hurricane happening. It will predict with increasing levels of accuracy, higher or lower trending temperatures, increasing storms, and heightened frequencies of weather events.
The same can be said for a climate of violent rhetoric and violent acts.
| 500 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:56:40pm |
re: #496 eltito
I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to build straw men. It wasn't a rhetorical question. I'm just trying to get a sense of what, exactly, people want to come out of this and why.
I'd like politicians to stop talking about guns so much when they're not talking about gun laws.
| 501 |
Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:57:05pm |
re: #495 robdouth
Lidane calls him a wingnut assuming right wing. That's a definitive statement.
I called him a wingnut when it was suggested that he was insane and therefore had no idea what the hell he was doing. To me, that's bullshit. He knew. He planned it for YEARS, given that he'd gone to a similar event in 2007, and the evidence the authorities found points to deliberate intent.
You can be a raving lunatic nutjob wingnut politically, but that doesn't mean you're insane and don't know what you're doing. That's my definitive statement. He knew what he was doing. He's not insane. Unstable, sure. But he knew what he was doing when he did it.
| 502 |
robdouth Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:57:06pm |
re: #492 Lidane
To be consistent, if an attempt on Bush Jr. had been tried, would you have taken Kos, or Huffpo to task for their constant Bushitler references?
I believe I'm being consistent because in the past whenever there is a political person who is shot or attacked in this manner, when all the details emerge, it's usually of someone unstable without clear political motive, who believes a jumble of things and it doesn't occur in a political climate such as this. Therefore, there is a track record which at least points away from that argument.
| 503 |
ClaudeMonet Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:57:44pm |
re: #358 EmmmieG
There will now be a pause while we all google our nics.
I have an approximate idea of what I'd find. And it's certainly not about the real me.
I played the French impressionist painter Claude Monet in the play Defying Gravity four years ago. I've become a big fan of his work. Hence the nic.
| 504 |
robdouth Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:58:39pm |
re: #497 Amory Blaine
It's wrong to link the two if you are implying a greater connection then it appears there is. It's like the handful of politicians that are claiming they should use this as a reason to pass gun control laws. Your points may be valid, but they are cheap political theater when made amidst dead bodies.
| 505 |
eltito Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:58:43pm |
re: #486 SanFranciscoZionist
He apparently wrote down that he would assassinate Giffords, he bought a weapon, he took himself to an event she was speaking at.
Yes, but why did he do all of that? What were his reasons? Were they coherent or rational at all? From what I've read of this guy's writings I have a very hard time believing that they could have been.
| 506 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:00:07am |
re: #502 robdouth
To be consistent, if an attempt on Bush Jr. had been tried, would you have taken Kos, or Huffpo to task for their constant Bushitler references?
Considering the fact that I spent eight years having screaming matches with people over that "Bush = Hitler" idiocy, the answer is yes.
I also spent those same eight years being told by wingnuts that I was a filthy traitor and terrorist sympathizer who hated America because I opposed Bush's policies. Forgive me if I'm not all that inclined to give a shit if the same wingnuts who called me a traitor then get their feelings hurt when people question the rhetoric of the last two years.
| 507 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:00:46am |
re: #505 eltito
Yes, but why did he do all of that? What were his reasons? Were they coherent or rational at all? From what I've read of this guy's writings I have a very hard time believing that they could have been.
I'm fairly sure he's unstable in some way. But 'irrational' can easily coexist with political thoughts and motivations.
| 508 |
Kronocide Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:01:09am |
re: #502 robdouth
To be consistent, if an attempt on Bush Jr. had been tried, would you have taken Kos, or Huffpo to task for their constant Bushitler references?
You've had an account for over 3 years and you don't know how much 'Bushitler' morons were savaged on this blog?
| 509 |
Amory Blaine Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:02:20am |
re: #504 robdouth
Apparently you don't have a problem with the right wing rhetoric of the recent past. Well I do. Even if your claims that this killer has no ties to the right wing, I believe it's dangerous and I do believe someone is going to get killed because of it.
| 510 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:02:21am |
re: #507 SanFranciscoZionist
I'm fairly sure he's unstable in some way. But 'irrational' can easily coexist with political thoughts and motivations.
That is, I'm perfectly content to believe he may well be mentally ill, but I don't think he thought Giffords was a dangerous alien, or his long-lost evil twin sister. He may have acted because of his mental illness, but his behavior shows that he was well able to pick up ideas about politics.
| 512 |
robdouth Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:04:04am |
re: #498 ozbloke
My view is it's an irresponsible article. Does that mean I excuse anything Palin has done in the past... forever? no, absolutely not, in fact I'm hoping that as people call for this calming of rhetoric, she will lose political capital and more intelligent moderate republicans take her place (I know it's not likely, but that's why i said hope) Palin's assininity doesn't change the irresponsibility of Daly's article. It's sick opportunism in the wake of 6 dead, and if my family member was one of the dead I'd be disgusted with someone getting paid to use my dead loved one as a cheap political prop in an article.
| 513 |
robdouth Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:07:36am |
re: #506 Lidane
Well then you were in some stupid circles because I opposed a ton of Bush's policies openly with friends who were much more sympathetic towards Bush's failed bailouts and domestic agenda, and never had any problems. In fact towards the end, it was hard to find someone who believed in conservative principles who was happy with many of his policies. Remember that the first of the tea-parties started against Bush and the first TARP. They just were astro-turfed and hijacked by racists and extremists later on under Obama.
| 514 |
ozbloke Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:07:51am |
re: #512 robdouth
My view is it's an irresponsible article. Does that mean I excuse anything Palin has done in the past... forever? no, absolutely not, in fact I'm hoping that as people call for this calming of rhetoric, she will lose political capital and more intelligent moderate republicans take her place (I know it's not likely, but that's why i said hope) Palin's assininity doesn't change the irresponsibility of Daly's article. It's sick opportunism in the wake of 6 dead, and if my family member was one of the dead I'd be disgusted with someone getting paid to use my dead loved one as a cheap political prop in an article.
I think posters should be free to discuss what they want.
The posters are not the press, and typically views are expressed not conclusions drawn.
You suggest he was a nutter, so what happens if the press said that and it turns out not to be true.
I struggle that there is a difference to what you are doing.
| 515 |
robdouth Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:09:32am |
re: #508 BigPapa
I was asking Lidane specifically because I don't know how he felt then. It's a legitimate question. I didn't ask if LGF did. Read the post before responding, it will help with misunderstandings.
| 516 |
Amory Blaine Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:10:03am |
re: #513 robdouth
Remember that the first of the tea-parties started against Bush and the first TARP. They just were astro-turfed and hijacked by racists and extremists later on under Obama.
I don't remember it that way.
| 517 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:10:49am |
re: #513 robdouth
Well then you were in some stupid circles because I opposed a ton of Bush's policies openly with friends who were much more sympathetic towards Bush's failed bailouts and domestic agenda, and never had any problems.
I live in Texas. Being anything to the left of Bush in this state is tantamount to treason half the time. Being an open critic meant that every yahoo with an opinion felt obligated to let you know how much of a liberal asshole you are.
| 518 |
eltito Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:13:38am |
re: #510 SanFranciscoZionist
That is, I'm perfectly content to believe he may well be mentally ill, but I don't think he thought Giffords was a dangerous alien, or his long-lost evil twin sister. He may have acted because of his mental illness, but his behavior shows that he was well able to pick up ideas about politics.
Irrational is par for the course in politics, I know - maybe not the best choice of words.
This guy is beyond that. One of his main gripes is that the government is controlling the grammar we use so that they can control our minds. Or some shit. I don't know of any sane person espousing that idea.
You may be right in that he can understand the words, but I'm not at all convinced that he can reach the logical conclusions that a normal person would reach given the same information. He reaches some other conclusion entirely.
But that neither makes him a right wing/left wing nut job, nor does it mean that the person from whom he got the information is culpable for his actions. It's not reasonable to expect a normal person to take insanity into account when espousing rhetoric that falls within the realm of free speech. There is no way of knowing what an insane person will do.
| 519 |
robdouth Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:13:52am |
re: #509 Amory Blaine
What's worse than a straw man argument (excusing rhetoric of Palin) is when I've repeatedly said I don't condone it. So if someone disagrees with you in a nuanced way you have to lump them in with some preconceived notion even if I've posted points directly refuting what you've attributed to me.
Let me make this harder on you because you obviously can't figure out why someone disagrees with you unless they is a wrath-minded teapartier. I don't condone anything Palin says or does, and wish she would just go back to shooting meese and minding her business. Is that clear enough for you, or will you continue to obfuscate and falsely attribute beliefs that I've repeatedly "refudiated"
| 520 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:14:28am |
re: #516 Amory Blaine
I don't remember it that way.
It's only that way if you forget that Ron Paul was throwing "Tea Party" rallies early on, but the idea that it was hijacked by racists and extremists is laughable. They were always there.
| 521 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:14:34am |
re: #371 Charles
Has this been confirmed as authentic yet?
| 522 |
robdouth Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:17:43am |
re: #516 Amory Blaine
please tell me how you remember it, because I remember running into people on the light rail here in AZ who were going to a rally in the spring before Obama was elected. I remember because my friend Joel and I were going to a St. Louis vs. Dbacks game and they were only here in AZ that April. But by all means tell me how it started. The tea-party of today is nothing like the original very small semi-grass roots complaints being lodged against Bush and the congress. Now it's a racist, astro-turfed breeding ground for hate. That first tea-party protest before tax day I ran into nice old ladies and people who were genuinely concerned with government spending. Fast forward a couple years, and I'm on the light rail going to another game and it's confrontational a-holes spewing anti-government psycho-babble. It's truthers/birthers/any other thers you can think of.
| 523 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:18:06am |
re: #518 eltito
One of his main gripes is that the government is controlling the grammar we use so that they can control our minds. Or some shit. I don't know of any sane person espousing that idea.
That's a "sovereign citizen" argument, actually:
[Link: www.politico.com...]
| 524 |
ClaudeMonet Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:19:12am |
re: #521 moderatelyradicalliberal
Has this been confirmed as authentic yet?
From the same blog--
"UPDATE:
This is a photoshop. Someone pointed out that Tucson is spelled incorrectly.
The person who emailed the image to me either photoshopped it themselves or got it from someone else who did."
| 525 |
Kronocide Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:19:14am |
And now our faithfully concerned citizens are going victim mode.
I read Daly's article. The title was hyped, sure. But is there anything wrong with this?
Here is what Sarah Palin said on the Facebook page where she depicted Gabrielle Giffords in the cross hairs of a rifle scope: "Don't retreat! Instead - RELOAD!"
Well, the guy who shot Giffords yesterday managed to keep firing until he killed six, including a child, and wounded 13 .
Palin would no doubt say that she was only speaking in metaphor, that she only meant her followers should work to unseat Giffords and 19 other Democrats who had roused her ire by voting for health care.
But anyone with any sense at all knows that violent language can incite actual violence, that metaphor can incite murder. At the very least, Palin added to a climate of violence.
Palin should have taken it as a warning of what might happen when a Tea Party hothead dropped a gun while heckling Giffords at an earlier Congress On Your Corner event, more than a year ago.
That did not stop Palin from declaring Giffords a "target." Giffords' district office was subsequently vandalized, and the congresswoman noted that Palin had put "the cross hairs of a gun sight over our district."
"When people do that, they have to realize that there are consequences to that action," Giffords said.
Read more: [Link: www.nydailynews.com...]
| 526 |
robdouth Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:19:47am |
re: #520 Lidane
Do you think a lot of the people who were genuinely concerned with government spending and the bailouts stuck around when it became more racist and extremist? Are you saying it isn't worse now than at the very very beginning? When it was during Bush, there wasn't the race element, because who were they going to be racist against? Bush? He's the definition of WASP.
| 527 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:20:16am |
More on the grammar thing:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
| 528 |
Amory Blaine Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:22:56am |
re: #522 robdouth
please tell me how you remember it, because I remember running into people on the light rail here in AZ who were going to a rally in the spring before Obama was elected. I remember because my friend Joel and I were going to a St. Louis vs. Dbacks game and they were only here in AZ that April. But by all means tell me how it started. The tea-party of today is nothing like the original very small semi-grass roots complaints being lodged against Bush and the congress. Now it's a racist, astro-turfed breeding ground for hate. That first tea-party protest before tax day I ran into nice old ladies and people who were genuinely concerned with government spending. Fast forward a couple years, and I'm on the light rail going to another game and it's confrontational a-holes spewing anti-government psycho-babble. It's truthers/birthers/any other thers you can think of.
Where millions of people there?
| 529 |
robdouth Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:23:04am |
re: #525 BigPapa
I made the point before. Whether or not his article is accurate or not, it's still cheap, especially given he had very few details when he submitted his article for print Saturday night. If it were my loved one, I'd be sickened that my family member isn't even cold yet and someone's using the event for political purposes, no matter how deserving the target (which in this case Palin most definitely is)
| 530 |
eltito Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:24:17am |
re: #523 Lidane
That's a "sovereign citizen" argument, actually:
[Link: www.politico.com...]
Holy fuck! I stand corrected.
Though I did say "sane person" :p.
The question remains though: what does a normal, rational person do with that information, even if they are supremely naive and take what he says at face value? I have a hard time believing it ends in a shooting rampage.
Like I said, there's no accounting for insanity.
| 531 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:24:43am |
re: #526 robdouth
I'm saying the Tea Party started with Ron Paul and his merry band of libertarian idiots, was co-opted by Fox News during the TARP stuff to bring people who were suddenly and miraculously concerned about spending together, then the Paulian wing took control back of their own movement.
The racists and extremists were there from the beginning with Ron Paul, and they became more prominent over the last two years. But it's been a part of the Tea Party from the start.
| 532 |
robdouth Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:25:43am |
re: #528 Amory Blaine
I'm guessing you asked 'were millions there'? I wouldn't know. when you run into a few on the ligh rail on your way into a ballgame, you can only go by the people you talk to. I'm just saying that very first tax day tea party seemed much different than the people you run into nowadays going to those rallies on the light rail. I think it's changed greatly and taken on a much more nefarious and racial motive since Obama was elected, and I'm guessing the little old lady from the first one, if she was "a nice old lady" has nothing to do with the group anymore.
| 533 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:26:14am |
re: #529 robdouth
I made the point before. Whether or not his article is accurate or not, it's still cheap, especially given he had very few details when he submitted his article for print Saturday night. If it were my loved one, I'd be sickened that my family member isn't even cold yet and someone's using the event for political purposes, no matter how deserving the target (which in this case Palin most definitely is)
Considering she had spoken out months ago, publicly, that her life was being put in danger as a result of the rhetoric of Palin, et.al., i'm fairly certain she would want her family to push back against the people who put her in such danger.
This was a political murder, not caused, but encouraged, by politicians. If this happened to my family you can be damn sure they'd want me to ensure they weren't hurt or killed for nothing.
| 534 |
Amory Blaine Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:27:26am |
It's always real effective to wait literally until days before a presidency ends to start protesting that administration.
| 535 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:28:34am |
re: #534 Amory Blaine
It's always real effective to wait literally until days before a presidency ends to start protesting that administration.
Seriously. Where were all those people who were so concerned about spending over the previous eight years? TARP didn't just happen out of the blue. It was a long time coming.
| 536 |
robdouth Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:29:25am |
re: #531 Lidane
Point taken, I do think many abadoned it as the wheat was separated from the chafe. The current group is only chafe and I think what decent people were part of it (the wheat in this analogy) headed for the hills as the agenda of the radicals became clearer and more vocal. What started under the guise of geniune concern for gov't spending morphed quickly after Obama. Again they may have been there, but they weren't as visible because the race stuff wouldn't have made sense when Bush was still in office, unless you are saying they were already targeting Obama, and then I can only speak again for the very small cross-section I ran into on the light rail, and most of them seemed like regular folks back in april '08.
| 537 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:33:26am |
re: #530 eltito
The question remains though: what does a normal, rational person do with that information, even if they are supremely naive and take what he says at face value? I have a hard time believing it ends in a shooting rampage.
Most of the time it ends in tax evasion or tax resistance by "sovereign" citizens, and it always fails in court.
Like I said, there's no accounting for insanity.
Except that he planned this for some time. That's not evidence of insanity under most legal guidelines. To be declared insane, you have to have no idea what you're doing and no concept of right and wrong. From what's been presented so far, he doesn't qualify. He planned his actions in advance, and asked his friends not to be mad at him on his MySpace page.
Was he unstable? Sure. Stable people don't commit mass murder. But insane? That's a pretty high wall to climb under the law. Even Dahmer was declared sane under the law.
| 538 |
Kronocide Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:38:50am |
re: #529 robdouth
I made the point before. Whether or not his article is accurate or not, it's still cheap, especially given he had very few details when he submitted his article for print Saturday night. If it were my loved one, I'd be sickened that my family member isn't even cold yet and someone's using the event for political purposes, no matter how deserving the target (which in this case Palin most definitely is)
Interesting since Giffords' dad, when asked if she had enemies, said 'yeah, the whole tea party.' How about lecturing him for making cheap and sickening political points.
You did not answer my question which was specific about a few paragraphs Daly had typed.
| 539 |
Amory Blaine Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:38:50am |
re: #532 robdouth
I apologize for implying you didn't care about right wing rhetoric after you had said that you did.
| 540 |
robdouth Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:39:37am |
re: #534 Amory Blaine
So April '08 was days before the end of Bush's presidency? By my count it's well over 200+ days until the inauguration, but by definition, every amount of time can be boiled down to "literally just days"
Here then. It was literally just seconds before the end right. Millions and millions of seconds, but seconds nonetheless. Granted tax day protests are nothing new and happened well before the tea party. If you want to really slam them, the best instance of direct violence is the story about the lynchburg wing that told people to stop by that one congressmen's house and gave the wrong address to his brother's house. Then someon actually severed his gas line. That's a direct instance of inciting violence and is a better example than this instance.
| 541 |
robdouth Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:43:42am |
re: #535 Lidane
I know you said you lived in Texas, which I'm sure was a sounding board for Bush, but honestly outside of that state and I'm sure some other enclaves, I remember almost all of my Republican friends voicing concern about TARP I, and those that did support it were tepid at best and took the tack that it had to be done. I don't know that anyone liked it and very few people supported it. That was the beginning of the tea-party, but like you said, it was co-opt and astro-turfed by Fox and all that was left were the radicals. Looking at the wiki page it only lists their history to January 2009, but am I wrong to say there were tax day protests in April 08? If I'm wrong, then I conced the point wholly, but I swear there were protests during the election cycle in 08.
| 543 |
robdouth Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:46:42am |
Goodnight you two. Although we don't see eye to eye exactly, I think we have more common ground than uncommon. I wish you all safety and health, and hopefully this will be only an isolated incident, but given there are millions of unstable people in this country, it's unlikely.
| 544 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:48:41am |
re: #541 robdouth
That was the beginning of the tea-party.
Actually, no. It wasn't. It was the beginning of the Tea Party being co-opted by Fox News and the mainstream right. Ron Paul was having Tea Party rallies as fundraisers back in 2007:
[Link: www.associatedcontent.com...]
His ideas were co-opted in 2008 and beyond, but they were most definitely his first.
| 546 |
Amory Blaine Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:56:34am |
re: #541 robdouth
I remember when Col. Klink (Hank Paulson) came out with that 3 page ransom note and said that if it didn't get approved without strings that the entire economy would collapse. Ahhh the good ol' days...
| 547 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Jan 10, 2011 1:02:47am |
re: #371 Charles
Well, it turns out that Jared Lee Loughner is a registered Republican.
[Link: lauramartin.tumblr.com...]
Could be shopped. On [Link: voter.azsos.gov...] you need Voter Id or Drivers License Number to look up this information of an individual. Also, the Arizona Daily Star yesterday had this to say:
Loughner registered to vote for the first time in 2006, said Chris Roads, Pima County's registrar of voters. He registered as an independent and last voted in the 2008 general election.
| 548 |
AK-47% Mon, Jan 10, 2011 1:04:31am |
Sarah Palin is a victim: of her own hyperbole, tastelessness and disconnectedness.
I think that all but her most ardent (read: mindless) supporters are turning their backs on her, albeit quietly and discreetly.
| 549 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Jan 10, 2011 1:11:13am |
re: #455 eltito
I'm not sure I'm making my point well enough.
Politics was not his motivation, insanity was. Politics can't motivate a person incapable of comprehending them.
GOD do they grow these guys in a lab? What the hell!
| 550 |
Amory Blaine Mon, Jan 10, 2011 1:12:24am |
re: #547 000G
Dang you. I was just going to post that article :p.
| 551 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Jan 10, 2011 1:20:49am |
re: #533 Fozzie Bear
Considering she had spoken out months ago, publicly, that her life was being put in danger as a result of the rhetoric of Palin, et.al., i'm fairly certain she would want her family to push back against the people who put her in such danger.
This was a political murder, not caused, but encouraged, by politicians. If this happened to my family you can be damn sure they'd want me to ensure they weren't hurt or killed for nothing.
Fuck yeah
| 552 |
AK-47% Mon, Jan 10, 2011 1:24:31am |
re: #549 WindUpBird
GOD do they grow these guys in a lab? What the hell!
No, they are being mass produced by our society, and there are lots more like him: frustrated, alienated, socially dysfunctional, unemployable and well armed.
And just waiting for something to set them off.
| 553 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, Jan 10, 2011 1:41:05am |
The Dems have really hit a bullseye here. It's time to take aim at these trite gun cliches and blow them out of existence. Lock and load, people, and keep the demagogues in your sights. Don't let them dodge a bullet this time, unless, of course, you've bought the tea party line lock, stock, and barrel.
| 555 |
Mr Pancakes Mon, Jan 10, 2011 1:42:57am |
re: #552 ralphieboy
No, they are being mass produced by our society, and there are lots more like him: frustrated, alienated, socially dysfunctional, unemployable and well armed.
And just waiting for something to set them off.
Sometimes it's the music!
| 556 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, Jan 10, 2011 1:43:59am |
| 557 |
AK-47% Mon, Jan 10, 2011 1:46:54am |
re: #553 Shiplord Kirel
The Dems have really hit a bullseye here. It's time to take aim at these trite gun cliches and blow them out of existence. Lock and load, people, and keep the demagogues in your sights. Don't let them dodge a bullet this time, unless, of course, you've bought the tea party line lock, stock, and barrel.
Those are "surveyors marks" dammit! Surveyors -like those famous fellows Mason and Dixon who drew the border between the slave and free states.
| 558 |
ozbloke Mon, Jan 10, 2011 1:53:17am |
re: #556 Shiplord Kirel
Whatever are you talking about?
May be an Australian thing, a rifle has a butt, the part you place against your shoulder.
Sorry, its not funny if you have to explain it.
| 559 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, Jan 10, 2011 2:00:08am |
re: #558 ozbloke
May be an Australian thing, a rifle has a butt, the part you place against your shoulder.
Sorry, its not funny if you have to explain it.
Sorry, Oz. It is funny, but it's 4 in the morning here in the wilds of west Texas, and I'm a little out of it.
| 560 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, Jan 10, 2011 2:00:38am |
re: #557 ralphieboy
Those are "surveyors marks" dammit! Surveyors -like those famous fellows Mason and Dixon who drew the border between the slave and free states.
Yeah, if the surveyor's marking a target for you. As an earlier poster pointed out, the Palinistas would still have trouble explaining the admonition to reload. Maybe they mean some of those new-fangled surveyor's instruments with built-in processors and a resultant need to reboot or something.
| 561 |
AK-47% Mon, Jan 10, 2011 2:04:15am |
I just hope that chartered surveyors all over America are offended by being associated with Sarah...
| 562 |
ozbloke Mon, Jan 10, 2011 2:07:46am |
re: #559 Shiplord Kirel
Sorry, Oz. It is funny, but it's 4 in the morning here in the wilds of west Texas, and I'm a little out of it.
Its ok, a lot of my humor seems to be country specific, I wish google had an Australian to American translator.
Its 9:00pm Monday evening here, we are expecting upto 8" of rain overnight.
I live on a river bank, we are having major and minor floods over Queensland and New South Wales.
The river outside my home has risen about 36', at about 55' I'm going to have wet feet, its been rising around 3' per hour most of the day.
Some of the worst floods on record.
I will be up all night, seeing whether we will have to evacuate.
| 563 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Jan 10, 2011 2:13:22am |
| 564 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, Jan 10, 2011 2:24:56am |
re: #562 ozbloke
Its ok, a lot of my humor seems to be country specific, I wish google had an Australian to American translator.
Its 9:00pm Monday evening here, we are expecting upto 8" of rain overnight.
I live on a river bank, we are having major and minor floods over Queensland and New South Wales.The river outside my home has risen about 36', at about 55' I'm going to have wet feet, its been rising around 3' per hour most of the day.
Some of the worst floods on record.
I will be up all night, seeing whether we will have to evacuate.
Stay safe, Oz. Don't hesitate to get out if you need to.
I've never been in a big flood but my dad has. He grew up in New Madrid, Missouri, right on the Mississippi. Some of his earliest memories are of the great flood of 1927. The family had just bought their first car, a 1923 Chevrolet, and used it to escape the rising flood waters. They almost didn't get away, and some of their neighbors didn't make it at all. He was five years old at the time.
| 565 |
ozbloke Mon, Jan 10, 2011 2:27:58am |
re: #564 Shiplord Kirel
Stay safe, Oz. Don't hesitate to get out if you need to.
I've never been in a big flood but my dad has. He grew up in New Madrid, Missouri, right on the Mississippi. Some of his earliest memories are of the great flood of 1927. The family had just bought their first car, a 1923 Chevrolet, and used it to escape the rising flood waters. They almost didn't get away, and some of their neighbors didn't make it at all. He was five years old at the time.
Thanks,
Two years ago we had the second worst flood on record, we had about 4' to the floor in the house. In the 1954 flood 16 people died in our town.
I won't be taking any chances with the family.
| 566 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Jan 10, 2011 2:31:28am |
re: #505 eltito
Yes, but why did he do all of that? What were his reasons? Were they coherent or rational at all? From what I've read of this guy's writings I have a very hard time believing that they could have been.
But that's precisely the point: The Right has systematically mainstreamed the craziness into what passes for accepted political discourse amongst their ranks.
| 567 |
ozbloke Mon, Jan 10, 2011 2:34:41am |
re: #564 Shiplord Kirel
Stay safe, Oz. Don't hesitate to get out if you need to.
I've never been in a big flood but my dad has. He grew up in New Madrid, Missouri, right on the Mississippi. Some of his earliest memories are of the great flood of 1927. The family had just bought their first car, a 1923 Chevrolet, and used it to escape the rising flood waters. They almost didn't get away, and some of their neighbors didn't make it at all. He was five years old at the time.
I don't have a 1923 Chevrolet to lose, but I do have a 1947 Ford with a 1969 327 Chev motor and jag suspension.
| 568 |
AK-47% Mon, Jan 10, 2011 2:38:48am |
re: #566 000G
But that's precisely the point: The Right has systematically mainstreamed the craziness into what passes for accepted political discourse amongst their ranks.
There are moonbats out there who want to "blame" it on Sarah Palin, and those are the very points that the Right is picking up and flinging back.
The real point to be made here is that the violent rhetoric that has been spreading into mainstream discourse is part of what nut cases use to justify and rationalize their acts of mayhem.
| 569 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Jan 10, 2011 2:45:50am |
re: #568 ralphieboy
There are moonbats out there who want to "blame" it on Sarah Palin, and those are the very points that the Right is picking up and flinging back.
The real point to be made here is that the violent rhetoric that has been spreading into mainstream discourse is part of what nut cases use to justify and rationalize their acts of mayhem.
Uh, no: diversion. His craziness was rightwing. Not leftwing. More specifically, it was of a typically rightwing anti-government, libertarian extremist, "abortion is terrorism", sovereign citizen flavour. I have read Charles reference "anti-immigrant", too, but I have not found that myself yet. All of this is typcial rightwing crazy, it's been becoming popular in the tea party crowds, and it's been invited with open arms by the mainstream political Right. Even now Republican leaders will only anonymously condemn their own rhetoric.
| 570 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 2:48:35am |
re: #543 robdouth
Goodnight you two. Although we don't see eye to eye exactly, I think we have more common ground than uncommon. I wish you all safety and health, and hopefully this will be only an isolated incident, but given there are millions of unstable people in this country, it's unlikely.
Given that there's huge amounts of violent rhetoric pumping out of the right wing, and no accountability for it, and people like you saying it's sickening when people point it out in the wake of a political murder, it's unlikely.
| 571 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Jan 10, 2011 2:49:26am |
The main issue here is that mainstream conservatives don't want to give up their extremism (be it libertarian or otherwise). It's been popular. It's been a sport. They were competing with each other to mainstream more and more crazy. It got them traction, attention, listeners and votes. Shunning it now would mean to give up what's been a working political strategy for them for years now. They are unwilling to do that because they are incapable of providing anything that's popular and not crazy as a replacement strategy.
| 572 |
tnguitarist Mon, Jan 10, 2011 2:53:22am |
If Palin saw nothing wrong with her "map", why was it taken down?
| 573 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, Jan 10, 2011 2:54:23am |
In this charmingly titled Telegraph Blog entry, the talented but deranged James Delingpole continues his one-man crusade to infect the UK with the tea party crazy:
The Arizona shootings were like Kwanzaa come early for America's liberal fascists
How sick do you have to be to start making political capital out of the killing of six people including a nine-year old girl, long before anyone has the remotest clue what the murderer’s motives were, or his political affiliations, or his state of mind?
Not sick at all, to judge by the response of so many US Tweeters in the immediate aftermath of the Arizona shootings. When you’re a liberal, it seems, cloying sanctimoniousness, grotesque moral posturing, double standards, hypocrisy and cynical, malevolent smearing all come as naturally and healthily as breathing.
As Toby Harnden reports, barely were the bodies cold when the liberal fascists started pointing the finger of blame: it was Sarah Palin’s fault, of course; Sarah Palin’s and Glenn Beck’s and, of course, the Tea Party’s. Definitely not a crazed killing spree by a deeply confused young man, no, sirree. After all, as Rahm Emmanuel would say, you must “never let a crisis go to waste.”
Ok, James, who boasts (falsely) about having all the guns? Whose protest signs regularly feature guns and threats to use them? Who had a map showing crosshairs on the home districts of her opponents? Which side of the spectrum do the gold bugs and currency conspircists inhabit (excluding the now jailed shooter, of course)?
| 574 |
freetoken Mon, Jan 10, 2011 2:54:45am |
re: #571 000G
Doing the real work of governance - finding a workable balance among all the stakeholders - is very difficult.
Much easier to just build strawmen to shoot.
| 575 |
freetoken Mon, Jan 10, 2011 2:57:59am |
re: #573 Shiplord Kirel
The best thing that can be said about Delingpole is that he is so over the top that he has zero chance of convincing anyone not already infused with tea-partying atavism to follow him.
| 576 |
EdDantes Mon, Jan 10, 2011 3:02:05am |
Can we wait until Jared Loughner tells who his influences were,(if he ever does)?
His political leanings are at this point ambiguous. A good sign is that nobody claims him. Perhaps we should stop pushing him into one ideology or the other.
| 577 |
freetoken Mon, Jan 10, 2011 3:02:24am |
Speaking of real governance, our new governor has floated some proposals for helping to balance the budget:
Anatomy of Brown's budget plan
Some eye-brow raising stuff there.
Using the LA Times California budget balancer I was not only able to balance the budget but come up with a $9 billion surplus! All without cutting necessary social services and safety.
| 578 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 3:16:30am |
re: #577 freetoken
I'm surprised not to see more tax proposals.
| 579 |
Liberal Classic Mon, Jan 10, 2011 3:30:59am |
I've been a libertarian-leaning type of guy for a long time. I still am, and I condemn this act of barbarism in the strongest possible terms. Seriously, how hard is it for the Pubbies to be on the same page and say "this is an attack against us all" or similar? Trying to paint Palin as a victim is plain stupid and implying Democratic culpability is freaking paranoid. WTF is going on?
| 580 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Mon, Jan 10, 2011 3:32:21am |
Good Morning Lizards!
Time for some sage wisdom from a former VP.
"I believe we are on an irreversible trend toward more freedom and democracy - but that could change."
Dan Quayle
| 581 |
Liberal Classic Mon, Jan 10, 2011 3:33:20am |
re: #580 rwdflynavy
The future will be better tomorrow.
| 583 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Mon, Jan 10, 2011 3:36:08am |
Statement from Secretary Gates:
"I am saddened to hear of the attack on Congresswoman Giffords and members of her staff earlier today in Tucson, Arizona. I have had an opportunity to interact with Congresswoman Giffords in her capacity as a member of the House Armed Services Committee, where she served on the Readiness and Air and Land Forces subcommittees. She is a strong supporter of America's national defense, cares deeply about our men and women in uniform, and has pursued her oversight responsibilities with dedication. Our thoughts are also with her husband, Navy Captain Mark Kelly, an aviator and astronaut of great distinction, as well as the families of the other victims of this attack. Ms. Giffords represents a new generation of principled and thoughtful political leaders that have come to Washington in recent years. We will miss her strong character and good judgment in the Congress during these important days ahead, and we are praying for her full recovery."
I haven't followed Rep Giffords much, didn't realize her husband was a Navy pilot and astronaut.
| 584 |
EdDantes Mon, Jan 10, 2011 3:38:43am |
re: #579 Liberal Classic
Who is painting Palin as a victim?
| 587 |
EdDantes Mon, Jan 10, 2011 3:46:14am |
re: #585 SteelPH
Don't see it. Please copy and paste relevant portion ( I worked all night and am ready to doze)
| 589 |
Liberal Classic Mon, Jan 10, 2011 3:55:40am |
re: #588 EdDantes
Did you read the WSJ article?
There's a climate of hate out there, all right, but it doesn't derive from the innocuous use of political clichés. And former Gov. Palin and the tea party movement are more the targets than the source.
| 590 |
Liberal Classic Mon, Jan 10, 2011 3:58:58am |
A little humor break with some Dan Quayle on video. Forgive the poor resolution. This multimedia file is ancient. I remember seeing it when the World Wide Web was young.
| 593 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 4:21:57am |
re: #331 lostlakehiker
Ardent atheist? That's not Tea Party.
That's a pretty simplistic understanding, IMO. In general, atheism clashes with TP but that doesn't mean there aren't a bunch of TP atheists.
| 594 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Jan 10, 2011 4:24:45am |
re: #371 Charles
Well, it turns out that Jared Lee Loughner is a registered Republican.
[Link: lauramartin.tumblr.com...]
SPIN HARDER YOU BASTARDS SPIN HARDER!
| 595 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 4:24:59am |
I'm skimming through a stormfront mega-thread about Laughner, now on p. 24 and they've already linked to Pammie twice to prove he is a leftist.
| 597 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 4:31:21am |
re: #595 Sergey Romanov
Is there some approval for Laughner over in that den of madness?
| 598 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 4:32:56am |
re: #597 Obdicut
Is there some approval for Laughner over in that den of madness?
Haven't seen any yet, everybody armed with 10-ft. poles.
| 599 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 4:33:57am |
re: #595 Sergey Romanov
I'm skimming through a stormfront mega-thread about Laughner, now on p. 24 and they've already linked to Pammie twice to prove he is a leftist.
For what it's worth...
"Investigators have not found anything connecting Loughner to extremist groups, the law enforcement official said. They believe Loughner was unemployed at the time of the shooting, according to the official."
[Link: www.cnn.com...]
| 600 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 4:34:31am |
re: #598 Sergey Romanov
That's somewhat reassuring. I'm really, really hoping there's no copycats.
| 601 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 4:34:48am |
re: #597 Obdicut
Is there some approval for Laughner over in that den of madness?
Ironically, some sympathize with Giffords because they think she was tough on illegal immigration, despite...
| 602 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 4:36:25am |
re: #599 Walter L. Newton
For what it's worth...
"Investigators have not found anything connecting Loughner to extremist groups, the law enforcement official said. They believe Loughner was unemployed at the time of the shooting, according to the official."
[Link: www.cnn.com...]
Seems like the DHS tie to AR might have been a dud after all.
| 603 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 4:38:39am |
re: #600 Obdicut
That's somewhat reassuring. I'm really, really hoping there's no copycats.
Well, it may further unbalance some other nut. The opinions there are divided between "this is just a nut" and "this is a plot!".
| 604 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 4:40:08am |
re: #602 Sergey Romanov
The only thing I've seen that really does look like him other than the youtube channel is on the "Above Top Secret" website. However, since he uses that bizarre, bizarre, grammar, it could possibly be someone else using the same insane grammar.
I'd count it as an extremist site, though of the paranoid rather than the hateful variety.
| 605 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 4:45:12am |
I don't know if it's been pointed out here, but that Palin map had another, more sinister variant:
[Link: demopedia.democraticunderground.com...]
This may be common knowledge, but I didn't know, so I guess some other people don't too. It's not just crosshairs, it's the language.
| 606 |
McSpiff Mon, Jan 10, 2011 4:50:16am |
re: #605 Sergey Romanov
I don't know if it's been pointed out here, but that Palin map had another, more sinister variant:
[Link: demopedia.democraticunderground.com...]
This may be common knowledge, but I didn't know, so I guess some other people don't too. It's not just crosshairs, it's the language.
I hadn't seen that, so thank you.
| 607 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 5:23:43am |
Ramblings...
It's -5 degrees (f) here at 8200 feet in Conifer Colorado. We had about 3 inches of snow over the last 18 hours.. down hill, the Denver area and south of Denver, they appear to have had a bit heavier snow, there was a foot in some places in Golden.
I love bidets. I didn't ask, but I'm hoping our little hotel room in Paris has a bidet. Why aren't there more bidets in the US?
So far, so good on the unemployment insurance front. Got laid off last Tuesday, put claim in online on Wed. and on Friday, got the initial correspondence in the mail stating that I meet all the requirements. Next step, they contact the employer and make sure is was a valid layoff and that I'm not unemployed due to any fault of my own. We'll see... retail companies hate to pay any sort of unemployment if they can help it. Hopefully there's not some "loophole" I'm missing here. I don't like surprises.
Just ramblings...
| 608 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 5:33:47am |
Good morning, Walter!
We missed the forecast snow yesterday and only had minor icing to scrape from the windshield. This morning the windshield's again lightly covered, but no big deal, nothing like what you get at upper altitudes and latitudes.
I've an acquaintance who's been unemployed and collecting benefits for over 2 1/2 years.
He figured out he could live his hermit life on the unemployment rolls and does so. Every time his benefits run out, he gets a little job for a while and then gets back on the rolls. I've no clue what the requirements are to collect, but they can't be that stringent. you shouldn't have any problems
Is there such a thing as a Monet bidet?
| 609 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 5:39:06am |
As is to be expected after horrid events like the AZ shootings, there will be plenty of idiot Congressional efforts to pare down the 1st and 2nd amendments.
The latest assault on freedom of speech has been announced.
| 610 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 5:43:35am |
re: #608 Capitalist Tool
Good morning, Walter!
We missed the forecast snow yesterday and only had minor icing to scrape from the windshield. This morning the windshield's again lightly covered, but no big deal, nothing like what you get at upper altitudes and latitudes.I've an acquaintance who's been unemployed and collecting benefits for over 2 1/2 years.
He figured out he could live his hermit life on the unemployment rolls and does so. Every time his benefits run out, he gets a little job for a while and then gets back on the rolls. I've no clue what the requirements are to collect, but they can't be that stringent. you shouldn't have any problemsIs there such a thing as a Monet bidet?
I've have collected unemployment twice since 2005, when I got laid off from the Department of Energy. That was the first time in my working career (I started working at the age of 16, I'm 58 now), that I had to do that.
All my employment since 2005 has been piece work, so to speak. Some off and on contract programming work (McKesson Technologies - 6 months, Lockheed Martin - 2 months, six months at a company that had a small chain of "adult toys"), and then I've picked up short one day to one week projects, mainly through Craigslist, go to a small company and fix something. The live theatre job lasted two years, but that was only "part time" both pay wise and due to the fact that we were a professional theatre, but non-profit. and we weren't an Equity house, so we only did 3-4 performances a week. I still do piece meal programming tasks on a legacy system for Kaiser. And my last job which I just got laid off from, I was working as a cashier for Kroger, that was part time, lasted 9 months.
I like the challenge, but at times I also miss the salad days of the 90's through the mid 10's... I rode that tech "bubble" as long as I could.
| 611 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 5:49:21am |
re: #609 Capitalist Tool
As is to be expected after horrid events like the AZ shootings, there will be plenty of idiot Congressional efforts to pare down the 1st and 2nd amendments.
The latest assault on freedom of speech has been announced.
Oh please. The law is a perfectly legitimate option that can be debated. There is no such thing as an absolute freedom of speech and it's OK to debate whether threats against lawmakers should be considered free speech.
| 612 |
RogueOne Mon, Jan 10, 2011 5:53:38am |
re: #605 Sergey Romanov
I don't know if it's been pointed out here, but that Palin map had another, more sinister variant:
[Link: demopedia.democraticunderground.com...]
This may be common knowledge, but I didn't know, so I guess some other people don't too. It's not just crosshairs, it's the language.
I've been abiding by the 48 hour rule, is there any evidence yet that the shooter was in any way motivated by rhetoric on anyones part?
| 613 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 5:55:08am |
re: #612 RogueOne
I've been abiding by the 48 hour rule, is there any evidence yet that the shooter was in any way motivated by rhetoric on anyones part?
No direct evidence, no.
| 614 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Jan 10, 2011 5:55:57am |
re: #612 RogueOne
I've been abiding by the 48 hour rule, is there any evidence yet that the shooter was in any way motivated by rhetoric on anyones part?
Dunno. We can assume he wasn't swayed by the 5th Commandment.
| 615 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 5:59:01am |
re: #610 Walter L. Newton
I've have collected unemployment twice since 2005, when I got laid off from the Department of Energy. That was the first time in my working career (I started working at the age of 16, I'm 58 now), that I had to do that.
All my employment since 2005 has been piece work, so to speak. Some off and on contract programming work (McKesson Technologies - 6 months, Lockheed Martin - 2 months, six months at a company that had a small chain of "adult toys"), and then I've picked up short one day to one week projects, mainly through Craigslist, go to a small company and fix something. The live theatre job lasted two years, but that was only "part time" both pay wise and due to the fact that we were a professional theatre, but non-profit. and we weren't an Equity house, so we only did 3-4 performances a week. I still do piece meal programming tasks on a legacy system for Kaiser. And my last job which I just got laid off from, I was working as a cashier for Kroger, that was part time, lasted 9 months.
I like the challenge, but at times I also miss the salad days of the 90's through the mid 10's... I rode that tech "bubble" as long as I could.
I had to close my business in 2008 due to health issues of a family member. I had health insurance (w/ever increasing premiums), but the additional unpaid costs ran into the thousands each month and hoovered any free capital I needed to maintain the business. I was working 16- 20 hr. days and falling behind. On the day that his treatment costs to me went up an additional $1K/mo., I started looking for (and soon found) a job with health benefits and closed my business.
Now, between the 2 insurance policies, I at least have my head above water. Financially, I'm basically just running in place and just do manage to save a bit each month, but at least we are all alive and not going into debt.
I'm 59.
| 616 |
RogueOne Mon, Jan 10, 2011 5:59:15am |
re: #614 Decatur Deb
Dunno. We can assume he wasn't swayed by the 5th Commandment.
I've stated before that trying to make sense of the behavior of schizophrenics is a waste of time. The only thing we actually know is the man was mentally disturbed and has been for awhile. When I heard the classmates talk about how he would sit and laugh to himself...if you know anyone who is schizophrenic you know what that is like.
| 617 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:00:06am |
re: #613 Sergey Romanov
No direct evidence, no.
(As opposed to evidence that the guy was a right-wing libertarian wacko. Which does not necessarily say anything about his motivation, of course.)
| 618 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:01:21am |
re: #603 Sergey Romanov
Well, it may further unbalance some other nut. The opinions there are divided between "this is just a nut" and "this is a plot!".
How about "This is just a nut wound up by an eliminationist political atmosphere?"
| 619 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:01:27am |
re: #616 RogueOne
I've stated before that trying to make sense of the behavior of schizophrenics is a waste of time. The only thing we actually know is the man was mentally disturbed and has been for awhile. When I heard the classmates talk about how he would sit and laugh to himself...if you know anyone who is schizophrenic you know what that is like.
This is yet again evidence of the failed mental healthcare system in our nation.
| 620 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:02:51am |
re: #618 Decatur Deb
How about "This is just a nut wound up by an eliminationist political atmosphere?"
Does not go well with their narratives.
| 621 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:03:39am |
A point a lot of people seem to be forgetting: This rhetoric did not become incendiary after the shooting, it always has been. Even if there had been no shooting, it would still have been incendiary. And it's not just about passing laws or something, it's about changing that rhetoric, in general. That will not happen with laws. It will happen with the people who dominate the discourse: The politicians, the elected leaders, the media personalities. If they are not held accountable from the masses, they will just double-down.
| 622 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:05:26am |
re: #617 Sergey Romanov
(As opposed to evidence that the guy was a right-wing libertarian wacko. Which does not necessarily say anything about his motivation, of course.)
There have been additional postings that he was a Leftwing nutcase.
All attempts to ascribe blame for this nut's actions to this or that political philosophy or party are without merit and in my opinion, label the person making the attempt as someone less- than- honest in either their analysis of the event or as someone who is not really interested in the truth of things and only interested in promoting an agenda.
| 623 |
RogueOne Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:05:40am |
re: #617 Sergey Romanov
(As opposed to evidence that the guy was a right-wing libertarian wacko. Which does not necessarily say anything about his motivation, of course.)
That's the exact opposite impression from the people who know him. Again, though, trying to tie down a political philosophy to a mentally unbalanced individual is a waste of time. The man believed in mind control and had a thing about NASA. The congresswoman happened into his psyche years ago. If it wasn't her, it would have been something/someone else.
My cousin went back to jail again last week, he's schizophrenic. This time he kicked a little girl in the head at a store because he was off his meds and he said she was trying to control him. He went to jail years ago for assaulting Bush protesters and I don't believe he had any idea Bush was president.
| 624 |
RogueOne Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:06:57am |
re: #619 Capitalist Tool
This is yet again evidence of the failed mental healthcare system in our nation.
I agree but it's a rough situation for the authorities. What do you do about people who are obviously sick but they haven't actually done anything? Waiting until they get their hands on a weapon isn't the answer but I don't know what is...
| 625 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:07:11am |
Dunno if it's been brought up, but some time after the event somebody concocted a fake Facebook account (obvious from the dates) with things like "Fight the Right! Obama and the Progressives will overcome the tyrrany (sic) of big business and the racist Tea Party." and the list of heroes "Barack Obama Saul Alinsky Noam Chomsky Hugo Chavez Che Guevera Mao Tse Tung Josef Stalin Yassir Arafat". Even on Stormfront a lot of people understood it's fake. I wonder if it will appear in coverago by the likes of Limbaugh or Beck.
| 626 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:07:27am |
Facts are not truth.
Facts are merely facets of the shining diamond of truth.
| 627 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:08:36am |
| 628 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:08:51am |
re: #623 RogueOne
That's the exact opposite impression from the people who know him. Again, though, trying to tie down a political philosophy to a mentally unbalanced individual is a waste of time. The man believed in mind control and had a thing about NASA. The congresswoman happened into his psyche years ago. If it wasn't her, it would have been something/someone else.
My cousin went back to jail again last week, he's schizophrenic. This time he kicked a little girl in the head at a store because he was off his meds and he said she was trying to control him. He went to jail years ago for assaulting Bush protesters and I don't believe he had any idea Bush was president.
I'm giving you one for that. He failed his suicide run, so we will learn a lot about his mental state and his politics over the months.
| 629 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:09:01am |
| 630 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:09:09am |
re: #612 RogueOne
I've been abiding by the 48 hour rule, is there any evidence yet that the shooter was in any way motivated by rhetoric on anyones part?
CNN had this statement in an article...
"Investigators have not found anything connecting Loughner to extremist groups, the law enforcement official said. They believe Loughner was unemployed at the time of the shooting, according to the official."
[Link: www.cnn.com...]
This certainly doesn't dismiss what he may have read, absorbed or acted on by himself. He certainly comes off as a loner, I would say whatever world he lived in, he didn't share it with too many people.
For sure, we know there was anti-government ranting, complaints about our money, some complaints about literacy and a fascination with mind control.
What's interesting to me, someone who has spent many, many years reading all sorts of literature that deals with these sort of wacky ideologies, is that this guy really seems to have developed his own unique flavor of all these memes.
I keep looking for some of the group speak, the words and phrases that would help possibly pinpoint what he may have been reading, who he may have been listening to... but his rants don't fit nicely into one sort of slot.
There are certainly flashes of extreme libertarian thinking, but even then, I don't think he would have been comfortable as a member of the Young Libertarians, and they certainly wouldn't have been comfortable with him.
A rather unique nut (man in the street diagnoses).
| 631 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:09:28am |
| 632 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:12:16am |
| 633 |
RogueOne Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:12:37am |
re: #630 Walter L. Newton
He was also a poster on a conspiracy site. He had an obsession with NASA too, another bad connection for the congresswoman.
| 634 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:13:57am |
re: #625 Sergey Romanov
Dunno if it's been brought up, but some time after the event somebody concocted a fake Facebook account (obvious from the dates) with things like "Fight the Right! Obama and the Progressives will overcome the tyrrany (sic) of big business and the racist Tea Party." and the list of heroes "Barack Obama Saul Alinsky Noam Chomsky Hugo Chavez Che Guevera Mao Tse Tung Josef Stalin Yassir Arafat". Even on Stormfront a lot of people understood it's fake. I wonder if it will appear in coverago by the likes of Limbaugh or Beck.
That was an easy one to spot. I've been a leftist since Eisenhower, and I had no idea who Alinsky was until I started lurking here. Chomsky was just a philosopher of language who made one of my classes very irritating. If someone is talking Chomsky, Alinsky or Cloward-Piven (one or two people?), they are not a functioning labor lefty.
| 635 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:16:14am |
re: #615 Capitalist Tool
I had to close my business in 2008 due to health issues of a family member. I had health insurance (w/ever increasing premiums), but the additional unpaid costs ran into the thousands each month and hoovered any free capital I needed to maintain the business. I was working 16- 20 hr. days and falling behind. On the day that his treatment costs to me went up an additional $1K/mo., I started looking for (and soon found) a job with health benefits and closed my business.
Now, between the 2 insurance policies, I at least have my head above water. Financially, I'm basically just running in place and just do manage to save a bit each month, but at least we are all alive and not going into debt.
I'm 59.
I've managed to take care of the my financial obligations since 2005, I saw some the shit fixing to hit the fan about a year out from my layoff from the DOE, so I prepared.
My girlfriend makes a very good salary, and she does well from 17 rent properties she has, but I'm not one to try to ride on that. I cover my fair share, won't have it any other way.
And I like to work, even if it's under careered work. I like leaning new stuff, meeting new people... cashiering at the supermarket was fun, I liked dealing with the customers... and I'm not one to look down on any profession... if you work hard, you're no more or less important than the next laborer.
It's stasis right now... which is good.
| 636 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:19:25am |
re: #632 Capitalist Tool
They are easy enough to find...
as example
I knew I had a deja vu. It was you who yesterday brought this up in this thread in 1404, after which it was dissected and rebutted. Yet now you return with exactly this.
There is no evidence that the guy was a leftist at the moment of shooting. There is all the evidence that he was a right-wing libertarian wacko at the moment of shooting. Deal.
| 637 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:20:29am |
re: #624 RogueOne
I agree but it's a rough situation for the authorities. What do you do about people who are obviously sick but they haven't actually done anything? Waiting until they get their hands on a weapon isn't the answer but I don't know what is...
There's probably no way to include all of the seriously mentally ill, but some sort of database of diagnosed/deranged individuals, something along the lines of police/criminal database would go a long way towards solving this problem.
| 638 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:22:10am |
re: #635 Walter L. Newton
Have you been reading my book?
/
| 639 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:25:57am |
To quote Charles, who sums it up succintly:
he was anti-immigrant, anti-government, and obsessed with currency and the gold standard, a pretty clear indication that he was aligned with the extreme Ron Paul libertarian right wing, far more than with any leftist cause.And then, there’s this:
Don Coorough, 58, who sat two desks in front of Mr. Loughner in a poetry class last semester, described him as a “troubled young man” and “emotionally underdeveloped.” After another student read a poem about getting an abortion, Mr. Loughner compared the young woman to a “terrorist for killing the baby.”
What sort of denial one must be in to suggest that he was anywhere near the left?
| 640 |
RogueOne Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:27:06am |
re: #637 Capitalist Tool
At this stage I don't think we know if he has ever seen a mental health professional. I would assume that if he had we would know about it by now.
There was a story recently about an army vet who wrote what the professor felt was a disturbing story for a community college course and was booted out until he got an evaluation. IIRC, the army gave him a passing grade on his eval but the school wanted a civilian test so he's still not back in school. If all it takes is someone to say "he's weird" to force someone to undertake a psych test.... I don't see how that would be legal.
| 641 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:27:31am |
re: #636 Sergey Romanov
I knew I had a deja vu. It was you who yesterday brought this up in this thread in 1404, after which it was dissected and rebutted. Yet now you return with exactly this.
There is no evidence that the guy was a leftist at the moment of shooting. There is all the evidence that he was a right-wing libertarian wacko at the moment of shooting. Deal.
Again, I say... any attempts to ascribe this or that political philosophy to this guy are an act of self- betrayal by the poster of such nonsense. All such 'posters' of this type should feel free to show everyone their proclivity to promote an agenda rather than seek the truth.
| 642 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:28:04am |
re: #623 RogueOne
The congresswoman happened into his psyche years ago. If it wasn't her, it would have been something/someone else.
Hypothesis. Complete it: Another Democratic Congresswoman? Or anyone? Maybe he would have just shot a dog? Or maybe he would have just kicked a dog? Maybe he would have just thought bad about the dog?
Fact: He did target and kill a Democratic Congresswoman.
| 643 |
RogueOne Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:28:06am |
re: #639 Sergey Romanov
To quote Charles, who sums it up succintly:
What sort of denial one must be in to suggest that he was anywhere near the left?
He suggested strapping bomb belts on the fetus to turn it into a terrorist.
| 644 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:28:25am |
| 645 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:29:07am |
re: #616 RogueOne
Diagnosing schizophrenia over the interwebs is not a good idea.
| 646 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:29:56am |
re: #644 Walter L. Newton
Meaning... you sound just like me...
| 647 |
RogueOne Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:30:07am |
re: #642 000G
Hypothesis. Complete it: Another Democratic Congresswoman? Or anyone? Maybe he would have just shot a dog? Or maybe he would have just kicked a dog? Maybe he would have just thought bad about the dog?
Fact: He did target and kill a Democratic Congresswoman.
It could have been anyone and she isn't dead. He's been fixated on her for years, for reasons only he would understand.
| 648 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:32:14am |
re: #639 Sergey Romanov
To quote Charles, who sums it up succintly:
What sort of denial one must be in to suggest that he was anywhere near the left?
After two days of this, he is becoming less interesting than the noise from the right-wing machine. Even on this sane site, we have seen zombies with a clear message: There will be no contrition, there will be no absolution, and there will be recurrence.
| 649 |
RogueOne Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:32:26am |
re: #645 Obdicut
Diagnosing schizophrenia over the interwebs is not a good idea.
True, but it fits perfectly. His age, the breakdown, the sitting and laughing, the paranoia, the way his classmates described the behavior that got him tossed out of school, the screwed up logic he used in proving the mars rover wasn't on mars.
| 650 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:33:09am |
re: #647 RogueOne
It could have been anyone and she isn't dead. He's been fixated on her for years, for reasons only he would understand.
Miswrote, my bad (killing, meant shooting). And I think his reasons can be understood.
| 651 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:34:28am |
re: #645 Obdicut
Diagnosing schizophrenia over the interwebs is not a good idea.
You and I don't agree on much, but that is one place were I'm behind you 100 percent. I get tired of non professionals using schizophrenia as some kind of mental illness garbage can in which to lump every nut into.
I'm an informed non professional. I spent two years with one of the worlds most "famous" schizophrenic's.. spent time with her, other professionals and absorbed most of the standard professional literature.
One of the most important thing I learn from all of my research into the subject... you can't diagnose schizophrenia like you were reading off of some kind of menu, or a check list.
| 652 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:34:54am |
re: #650 000G
Miswrote, my bad (killing, meant shooting). And I think his reasons can be understood.
I think his reason was that he was incapable of reason.
| 653 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:35:31am |
re: #641 Capitalist Tool
Again, I say... any attempts to ascribe this or that political philosophy to this guy are an act of self- betrayal by the poster of such nonsense. All such 'posters' of this type should feel free to show everyone their proclivity to promote an agenda rather than seek the truth.
OK, I may have misinterpreted your #622.
#622 Capitalist Tool
There have been additional postings that he was a Leftwing nutcase.
This was in response to my
(As opposed to evidence that the guy was a right-wing libertarian wacko. Which does not necessarily say anything about his motivation, of course.)
Therefore I assumed you were saying that there was actual evidence that he was a "leftwing nutcase", while you were probably merely pointing out (out of the blue) that there indeed have been such postings. Which is neither here nor there, since it's not the existence of postings but their content that matters.
I disagree that no political philosophy can be ascribed to him, though obviously blaming libertarians would be silly. What is not silly is pointing out the rhetoric from the right that is not countered by the top tier and in fact is pandered to.
| 654 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:35:38am |
| 655 |
RogueOne Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:36:05am |
re: #651 Walter L. Newton
Disagree. There are classic symptoms and he has them all. Unless there was some form of brain trauma we don't know about yet it fits too perfectly.
| 656 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:37:44am |
re: #651 Walter L. Newton
I spent two years with one of the worlds most "famous" schizophrenic's.. spent time with her.
You knew my ex?
| 657 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:37:49am |
re: #649 RogueOne
True, but it fits perfectly
If it's true, then you know that saying it fits 'perfectly' isn't a good idea. There is one significant way that it's not 'perfect'-- he's made absolute no references to hallucinations of any sort.
He's obviously disturbed. Speculation beyond that is just as willfully wrong as speculation that a particular piece of rhetoric inspired him.
| 658 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:38:56am |
re: #655 RogueOne
Disagree. There are classic symptoms and he has them all. Unless there was some form of brain trauma we don't know about yet it fits too perfectly.
You loose...
"People with schizophrenia are far more likely to harm themselves than be violent toward the public. Violence is not a symptom of schizophrenia. News and entertainment media tend to link mental illnesses including schizophrenia to criminal violence. Most people with schizophrenia, however, are not violent toward others but are withdrawn and prefer to be left alone. Drug or alcohol abuse raises the risk of violence in people with schizophrenia, particularly if the illness is untreated, but also in people who have no mental illness. When violence does occur, it is most frequently targeted at family members and friends, and more often takes place at home."
[Link: www.schizophrenia.com...]
What makes you think that you are capable of diagnosing a condition, over the internet, simply by reading some rants, or listening to some videos?
What are your professional qualifications sir?
| 659 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:40:27am |
| 660 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:41:13am |
re: #645 Obdicut
Diagnosing schizophrenia over the interwebs is not a good idea.
Agreed.
But this guy was so very disturbed, classmates of his were writing about him in e-mails/texts to their friends, and at least one of his instructors was scared the guy would bring a gun to class and start shooting. And that was last summer.
I'm just clueless as to why somebody (parents??) didn't try to get him some help; though from my own parents' experience with my brother, I know it could be near impossible to force an adult to get mental health help.
| 661 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:41:40am |
This supports the hypothesis of change from 2007:
[Link: abcnews.go.com...]
Shan said she became friends with Loughner the day the two graduated from high school and also had class together at Pima Community College in 2007. She said the two would hang out often after class but lost touch after the semester ended until they reconnected in the summer of 2010 when, Shan said, Loughner acted radically different.
"I don't know what might have caused him to change, but from the way he was talking to me [online]... you can see. It was just questions and questions and random, weird questions that didn't go together," she said. "He wanted to know everything... He would just trip out.
"I don't know why it didn't jump out at me, like, 'Hey, something's wrong."
Shan last spoke to Loughner in October, after he was suspended and dropped out of school and before he purchased a semi-automatic handgun from a gunshop in Tucson. But she said while Loughner was "anti-government," he was never violent and never mentioned plans to buy a gun.
| 662 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:41:41am |
Hell, there isn't even a consensus among psychologist as to what schizophrenia actually is-- whether, for example, it actually necessarily involves a flat affect or not. It is not a well-defined diagnosis, and I think it'd be better seen as a spectrum.
And aggressively violent schizophrenics are very rare. If someone attacks someone they don't personally know, that is actually an indicator against schizophrenia.
| 663 |
goddamnedfrank Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:43:21am |
re: #652 Capitalist Tool
I think his reason was that he was incapable of reason.
Then so are the majority of TP Republicans, unless thinking that NASA is lying to us about the Mars rovers is crazy, but thinking that NASA is lying to us about the GISTEMP record somehow is not. The general distrust of government stems from a greater tendency towards conspiratorial paranoia, and Loughner is just a spectacularly extreme example of this spectrum disorder.
| 664 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:43:47am |
re: #658 Walter L. Newton
You are exactly right about schizophrenics and violent tendencies.
A far more common trait among them is that they typically are plagued by 'other voices' and thought control from others, etc...
Sociopaths, psychopaths- those diagnosed as having no feelings toward others- those are the dangerous ones.
| 665 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:44:25am |
re: #659 Walter L. Newton
sorry, left no sarc tag... just being my usual smarty- pants self.
| 666 |
RogueOne Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:44:31am |
re: #658 Walter L. Newton
You loose...
"People with schizophrenia are far more likely to harm themselves than be violent toward the public. Violence is not a symptom of schizophrenia. News and entertainment media tend to link mental illnesses including schizophrenia to criminal violence. Most people with schizophrenia, however, are not violent toward others but are withdrawn and prefer to be left alone. Drug or alcohol abuse raises the risk of violence in people with schizophrenia, particularly if the illness is untreated, but also in people who have no mental illness. When violence does occur, it is most frequently targeted at family members and friends, and more often takes place at home."
[Link: www.schizophrenia.com...]
What makes you think that you are capable of diagnosing a condition, over the internet, simply by reading some rants, or listening to some videos?
What are your professional qualifications sir?
My only qualifications are with family. The longer they go untreated, and the older they get, the more likely they are to become violent. This poor guy seems to have gone off the edge without any medical support, 5 years without any meds that we know of. This guy will be going through a mental health eval shortly, if it hasn't already been started, and just remember I told you so.
| 667 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:44:34am |
re: #660 reine.de.tout
He's clearly disturbed. All I'm arguing against is specific intertubes diagnosis. There are any number of things that can produce bizarre behavior and mental disturbance-- including physical traumas, tumors, toxins, etc.
I completely agree that someone should have tried to help him. Sadly, in this country, we have very few mechanisms available to help the mentally ill-- and it's always an incredible challenge for those who aren't voluntary in seeking help.
I think there were enough signs that he was potentially dangerous to have him involuntarily committed.
| 668 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:45:15am |
re: #664 Capitalist Tool
You are exactly right about schizophrenics and violent tendencies.
A far more common trait among them is that they typically are plagued by 'other voices' and thought control from others, etc...Sociopaths, psychopaths- those diagnosed as having no feelings toward others- those are the dangerous ones.
So... what are you trying to tell me... that your are wrong? Or are you still holding on to your "diagnoses?"
| 670 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:46:34am |
re: #666 RogueOne
My only qualifications are with family. The longer they go untreated, and the older they get, the more likely they are to become violent. This poor guy seems to have gone off the edge without any medical support, 5 years without any meds that we know of. This guy will be going through a mental health eval shortly, if it hasn't already been started, and just remember I told you so.
You're tacking from your original statement. I asked you what makes you able to diagnose schizophrenia... and what makes you so sure that this jerk is one?
| 671 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:48:20am |
re: #665 Capitalist Tool
sorry, left no sarc tag... just being my usual smarty- pants self.
That's ok... I never use a sarc tag... and 80 percent of everything I post is sarc, satire, or just plain annoying.
I'm Cato without the hyper developed vocabulary.
| 672 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:49:59am |
re: #667 Obdicut
He's clearly disturbed. All I'm arguing against is specific intertubes diagnosis. There are any number of things that can produce bizarre behavior and mental disturbance-- including physical traumas, tumors, toxins, etc.
I completely agree that someone should have tried to help him. Sadly, in this country, we have very few mechanisms available to help the mentally ill-- and it's always an incredible challenge for those who aren't voluntary in seeking help.
I think there were enough signs that he was potentially dangerous to have him involuntarily committed.
When my parents checked into having my brother committed, here was the process:
1. He would have to be acting so threateningly that they were fearful.
2. They would then have to get him into the car and bring him to the emergency room.
3. Where he would be observed and if necessary, and order could be given to commit him for 3 days for observation.
4. At the end of the 3 days, a decision would be made about his condition and he may then be let free.
The problem - my brother could, when he wanted to, appear perfectly reasonable. He was convinced that the neighbors he had in Texas were "out to get him". Of course they weren't. When he moved to my parents' house in Louisiana, he became convinced that either the Texas neighbors had followed him there and bought the house next door to continue to harass him, OR they had relatives who had bought the house next door in order to continue the harrassment. Just crazy stuff. We'd get him to a doctor, and because of HIPAA, we could not talk to the doctor about him. He'd go in, deny he was having delusions, etc., and walk out with a prescription for pain meds. It was awful.
| 673 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:50:15am |
re: #671 Walter L. Newton
That's ok... I never use a sarc tag... and 80 percent of everything I post is sarc, satire, or just plain annoying.
I'm Cato without the hyper developed vocabulary.
Are things improving with Cato? Pls send regards.
| 674 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:50:19am |
re: #668 Walter L. Newton
So... what are you trying to tell me... that your are wrong? Or are you still holding on to your "diagnoses?"
Sorry... I comment on the wrong message... that was meant for Rogue... not Capitalist Tool... my apologies big time.
| 675 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:50:36am |
re: #616 RogueOne
I've stated before that trying to make sense of the behavior of schizophrenics is a waste of time. The only thing we actually know is the man was mentally disturbed and has been for awhile. When I heard the classmates talk about how he would sit and laugh to himself...if you know anyone who is schizophrenic you know what that is like.
I'm not sure if Walter has called you out yet but...
STOP PRETENDING YOU CAN DIAGNOSE SCHIZOPHRENIA WITHOUT EVER MEETING THE PERSON!
| 676 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:51:21am |
re: #643 RogueOne
He suggested strapping bomb belts on the fetus to turn it into a terrorist.
[Link: abcnews.go.com...]
One Pima Community College student, who had a poetry class with Loughner later in his college career, said he would often act "wildly inappropriate."
"One day [Loughner] started making comments about terrorism and laughing about killing the baby," classmate Don Coorough told ABC News, referring to a discussion about abortions. "The rest of us were looking at him in shock ... I thought this young man was troubled."
Another classmate, Lydian Ali, recalled the incident as well.
"A girl had written a poem about an abortion. It was very emotional and she was teary eyed and he said something about strapping a bomb to the fetus and making a baby bomber," Ali said.
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
Don Coorough, 58, who sat two desks in front of Mr. Loughner in a poetry class last semester, described him as a “troubled young man” and “emotionally underdeveloped.” After another student read a poem about getting an abortion, Mr. Loughner compared the young woman to a “terrorist for killing the baby.”
We're both wrong, but I stand corrected. Basically, it's the Rashomon effect and we don't know what happened in this case. Slight change of emphasis changes everything.
| 677 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:52:00am |
re: #672 reine.de.tout
The problem - my brother could, when he wanted to, appear perfectly reasonable.
Yep. This is frequent. I mean, this guy when arrested, immediately claimed his fifth amendment privileges. Just because he's disturbed doesn't mean his actions are random or he's not capable in acting in whatever he perceives as his own self-interest.
| 678 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:52:02am |
re: #673 Decatur Deb
Are things improving with Cato? Pls send regards.
Appears to be. The last time I spoke to him on the phone was around the holidays. He's had a little work... and I'll leave it at that.
| 679 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:53:58am |
re: #632 Capitalist Tool
They are easy enough to find...
as example
You know I wrote a page just to address this argument...
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
| 681 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:57:24am |
re: #662 Obdicut
Hell, there isn't even a consensus among psychologist as to what schizophrenia actually is-- whether, for example, it actually necessarily involves a flat affect or not. It is not a well-defined diagnosis, and I think it'd be better seen as a spectrum.
And aggressively violent schizophrenics are very rare. If someone attacks someone they don't personally know, that is actually an indicator against schizophrenia.
This is a big point that most people don't even realize. And this lack of consensus has been around since almost the first diagnoses of schizophrenia.
That's one of the issues I deal with in my play...
"To answer the question “Is Psychoanalytic Psychiatry Malpractice?” the psychiatrist has the responsibility to use effective treatment. Dr. King believes that drug treatment has stronger empirical support then all methods of psychotherapy. In my humble opinion, I feel the trouble is that he wants to make the Manual of Mental Disorders the Bible. As DSM categories have become increasingly to resemble those of physical medicine, drug treatment becomes more often the standard of care. That means that psychotherapy without medication has become tantamount to malpractice."
| 682 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:58:32am |
Don't downding Rogue's 643, he's correct that the story is more complicated re: abortion.
| 683 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 6:58:59am |
re: #682 Sergey Romanov
Don't downding Rogue's 643, he's correct that the story is more complicated re: abortion.
Ah... you never let us have any fun.
| 684 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:00:30am |
re: #667 Obdicut
He's clearly disturbed. All I'm arguing against is specific intertubes diagnosis. There are any number of things that can produce bizarre behavior and mental disturbance-- including physical traumas, tumors, toxins, etc.
I completely agree that someone should have tried to help him. Sadly, in this country, we have very few mechanisms available to help the mentally ill-- and it's always an incredible challenge for those who aren't voluntary in seeking help.
I think there were enough signs that he was potentially dangerous to have him involuntarily committed.
We in Oklahoma once had a mental health care system which was the envy of the world.
It was designed, implemented and controlled by Dr. Lloyd Rader, Sr.
The whole thing was expensive to operate, of course and so had legions of detractors. No one in Oklahoma had enough political clout to undo the great works of Dr. Rader, so the institutions under his care served many people very well for many years.
Upon Dr. Rader's death ( i forget when, exactly) in the mid- 80's, the whole system was dismantled.
We still provide some level of care for the most unfortunate, but most are ultimately imprisoned or rely on the 'missions' such as Jesus House for their rudimentary existence... we've emulated the rest of the country.
This has also led to our public school system having to cope with disturbed children by keeping them in class along side 'normal' kids, which diminishes the learning experience for all.
If this unfortunate incident sparks any kind of meaningful national debate, it should revolve around overhauling the way we deal with the truly unfortunate (and sometimes dangerous) among us.
We need to get away from all the stupid finger pointing and yet more attempts to throttle this or that Constitutional Amendment and correct this glaring error in the way we operate.
| 685 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:01:06am |
re: #680 Obdicut
Link doesn't work for me.
Sorry my bad I should have previewed to check the link.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
There
| 686 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:01:49am |
Whoa... just went to the garbage bin in my slippers... there's 4 inches of snow out there... not a good idea... feet frozen...
| 687 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:02:53am |
re: #668 Walter L. Newton
So... what are you trying to tell me... that your are wrong? Or are you still holding on to your "diagnoses?"
I'm not following what you mean, Walter... what diagnosis?
Far as I know, I haven't made any diagnosis, just a dumb joke about my ex...
I have definitely called this guy a nutbag... that's about as far as I can take it.
| 688 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:03:42am |
re: #684 Capitalist Tool
Part of the problem is that involuntary commitment is problematic under the Constitution.
| 689 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:03:49am |
re: #687 Capitalist Tool
I'm not following what you mean, Walter... what diagnosis?
Far as I know, I haven't made any diagnosis, just a dumb joke about my ex...I have definitely called this guy a nutbag... that's about as far as I can take it.
You missed my comment above... I accidently answered a comment from Rogue using your comment... sorry... no foul.
| 690 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:06:57am |
re: #679 jamesfirecat
You know I wrote a page just to address this argument...
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
I'd left before you posted that (thanks for the link), but my point wasn't that he was a leftist, but that it was fruitless for either side to ascribe a political philosophy to him as he is so clearly deranged in some manner.
| 691 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:07:45am |
Morning all!
I have about 15 minutes to catch-up.
How is everyone?
| 692 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:08:26am |
re: #684 Capitalist Tool
We in Oklahoma once had a mental health care system which was the envy of the world.
It was designed, implemented and controlled by Dr. Lloyd Rader, Sr.
The whole thing was expensive to operate, of course and so had legions of detractors. No one in Oklahoma had enough political clout to undo the great works of Dr. Rader, so the institutions under his care served many people very well for many years.
Upon Dr. Rader's death ( i forget when, exactly) in the mid- 80's, the whole system was dismantled.
We still provide some level of care for the most unfortunate, but most are ultimately imprisoned or rely on the 'missions' such as Jesus House for their rudimentary existence... we've emulated the rest of the country.This has also led to our public school system having to cope with disturbed children by keeping them in class along side 'normal' kids, which diminishes the learning experience for all.
If this unfortunate incident sparks any kind of meaningful national debate, it should revolve around overhauling the way we deal with the truly unfortunate (and sometimes dangerous) among us.
We need to get away from all the stupid finger pointing and yet more attempts to throttle this or that Constitutional Amendment and correct this glaring error in the way we operate.
That reflects a nationwide trend, a disaster shared by the left, right and technology. The liberals attacked on the human rights front, wanting to eliminate the snake-pits of the 50s. The conservatives pushed for a chance to lower taxes, and the medical scientists provided walk-around meds that worked only if properly supervised.
| 694 |
goddamnedfrank Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:09:20am |
The markets are starting off to a bad start, no surprise, looks like it's going to be a jittery day.
| 695 |
Sheila Broflovski Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:09:26am |
Oh crap!
I'm trying to debug a program written by my predecessor. When I set Response.write to echo the recordset values to the screen as they are read, MS throws a big error!
This is supposed to be "classic ASP" but it's all cobbled together inside a .NET framework, which means that MS is holding the Response.write hostage somewhere.
Damn it, and this asshole that I replaced did not even create a dev environment, he just moved everything into PROD when he thought he was done with it.
Fuck it, I should have asked for more money.
A Google search shows me that other developers are also having problems with the Response.write when they try to use it in .NET
| 696 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:09:34am |
re: #660 reine.de.tout
Agreed.
But this guy was so very disturbed, classmates of his were writing about him in e-mails/texts to their friends, and at least one of his instructors was scared the guy would bring a gun to class and start shooting. And that was last summer.I'm just clueless as to why somebody (parents??) didn't try to get him some help; though from my own parents' experience with my brother, I know it could be near impossible to force an adult to get mental health help.
maybe his parents are as crazy as he is
| 698 |
reloadingisnotahobby Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:11:29am |
re: #695 Alouette
Totally over my head....
Good Luck! and Good Morning all!
| 699 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:12:04am |
re: #695 Alouette
Oh crap!
I'm trying to debug a program written by my predecessor. When I set Response.write to echo the recordset values to the screen as they are read, MS throws a big error!
This is supposed to be "classic ASP" but it's all cobbled together inside a .NET framework, which means that MS is holding the Response.write hostage somewhere.
Damn it, and this asshole that I replaced did not even create a dev environment, he just moved everything into PROD when he thought he was done with it.
Fuck it, I should have asked for more money.
A Google search shows me that other developers are also having problems with the Response.write when they try to use it in .NET
Sounds like XKCD might have an approach:
[Link: xkcd.com...]
| 700 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:12:07am |
re: #696 albusteve
maybe his parents are as crazy as he is
I recall seeing somebody post a story that said the neighbors basically moved away from his folk's house just to get away from them... so if we have conformation on that I would not be surprised to find out that his parents aren't exactly the sanest bunch either.
We'll wait and see as I'm sure their behavior during their son's trial will let us find out quite a bit about them one way or another....
| 702 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:13:51am |
Yet another perspective on Laughner's politics:
[Link: www.kgun9.com...]
Steven Cates, who attended an advanced poetry writing class with Loughner at Pima Community College last spring, said he didn't recall Loughner talking about politics.
"He didn't seem very interested in politics. Whatever politics were brought up in class, he seemed to tune it out," Cates said.
| 703 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:15:31am |
re: #700 jamesfirecat
I recall seeing somebody post a story that said the neighbors basically moved away from his folk's house just to get away from them... so if we have conformation on that I would not be surprised to find out that his parents aren't exactly the sanest bunch either.
We'll wait and see as I'm sure their behavior during their son's trial will let us find out quite a bit about them one way or another...
James... take you own advice please...
"STOP PRETENDING YOU CAN DIAGNOSE SANITY WITHOUT EVER MEETING THE PARENTS OR FAMILY"
| 705 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:16:24am |
re: #703 Walter L. Newton
Excuse the bolding, my tags got eaten or something!
| 706 |
Sheila Broflovski Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:17:47am |
re: #699 Decatur Deb
Sounds like XKCD might have an approach:
[Link: xkcd.com...]
The previous guy was here for about six years. He got everything dependent on him, he was the "go-to" guy. He put together a manual of all his tasks, but it is ad hoc for production and not development.
I'm wondering if he put any "time bombs" in his code.
| 707 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:18:40am |
re: #703 Walter L. Newton
James... take you own advice please...
"STOP PRETENDING YOU CAN DIAGNOSE SANITY WITHOUT EVER MEETING THE PARENTS OR FAMILY"
A valid point. /// (Reverse sarc tags IE I'm saying that seriously)
| 708 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:19:12am |
re: #706 Alouette
I'm wondering if he put any "time bombs" in his code.
Can people be sued for that?
| 709 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:19:20am |
Well, that 15 minutes went quickly.
Have a great day all!
| 710 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:24:17am |
re: #706 Alouette
The previous guy was here for about six years. He got everything dependent on him, he was the "go-to" guy. He put together a manual of all his tasks, but it is ad hoc for production and not development.
I'm wondering if he put any "time bombs" in his code.
You'll find out sometime.
In one of my short under one week employment projects that I've manage to obtain over these "lean" years was a for a small background check company.
They had a proprietary system written and developed by a programmer who worked there for 10 years. It had a number of components, both web based and Access stand along applications.
About three years ago, he decides to take copies of ALL this software, set up his own website, host the website on his own server and install all the custom Access apps in his home.
He basically cloned the business for his own use. And yes, he did have a non-disclosure agreement and all the typical other legal stuff... the systems did not belong to him.
This guy had a lot of nerve, considering the owner of the company was the ex Denver City Coroner... and was WELL connected to the justice system.
And on top of that... he put a bomb in the code AND INFORMED HIS EX-EMPLOYEr THAT THERE WAS A BOMB.
I had to diffuse the whole mess.
| 711 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:29:25am |
will Palin, the media whore, publicaly speak about her targets and reload comment?, fess up to the violent rhetoric of the GOP?...or will Palin, the privacy victim whitewash, backtrack and pretend from inside a made up reality that fits her reality that half the country is imagining things?....seems to me, every talking head in the country would want to pin her for her recklessness or vindicate her innocence
| 712 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:31:11am |
re: #711 albusteve
there might be an English lesson in that post
| 713 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:32:14am |
re: #711 albusteve
will Palin, the media whore, publicaly speak about her targets and reload comment?, fess up to the violent rhetoric of the GOP?...or will Palin, the privacy victim whitewash, backtrack and pretend from inside a made up reality that fits her reality that half the country is imagining things?...seems to me, every talking head in the country would want to pin her for her recklessness or vindicate her innocence
You mean comments like this... "we can narrow the target list by looking at those Democrats" or "but this vote certainly puts a bulls eye on their district?"
| 714 |
Ericus58 Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:32:44am |
Good Morning all.
Great line-up of NFL games this past weekend - and yes, the Seahawks are still in the hunt ;)
My wife and I bought for ourselves an LG wireless Blu-Ray for the "house gift" during the holidays. Teaming it up with our LG flat panel was a breeze.
The best gig so far is the Netflix streaming. And what has been our viewing choice?
Firefly.
We have been SO enjoying the series, having watched the first 11 episodes out of the 14. What a great series - we now understand why everyone was so disappointed when it wasn't continued.
We'll watch the movie Serenity after the series.
Even if scifi isn't your cup of tea - the writing, cast and snappy production will hook you in.
| 715 |
Sheila Broflovski Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:33:20am |
re: #710 Walter L. Newton
You'll find out sometime.
In one of my short under one week employment projects that I've manage to obtain over these "lean" years was a for a small background check company.
They had a proprietary system written and developed by a programmer who worked there for 10 years. It had a number of components, both web based and Access stand along applications.
About three years ago, he decides to take copies of ALL this software, set up his own website, host the website on his own server and install all the custom Access apps in his home.
He basically cloned the business for his own use. And yes, he did have a non-disclosure agreement and all the typical other legal stuff... the systems did not belong to him.
This guy had a lot of nerve, considering the owner of the company was the ex Denver City Coroner... and was WELL connected to the justice system.
And on top of that... he put a bomb in the code AND INFORMED HIS EX-EMPLOYEr THAT THERE WAS A BOMB.
I had to diffuse the whole mess.
Not an intentional bomb, more like sloppy coding, but I can't get the screen to output intermediate values using the response.write WHICH I HAVE USED FOR MORE THAN 12 YEARS.
| 716 |
Cog Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:34:28am |
Have to disagree with both your characterization of Glenn Reynolds' article, and your judgement of its substance Charles. I am not a tea party or Palin follower, but trying to put the blame on this shooting on one side or the other is abhorent.
| 717 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:36:14am |
re: #715 Alouette
Not an intentional bomb, more like sloppy coding, but I can't get the screen to output intermediate values using the response.write WHICH I HAVE USED FOR MORE THAN 12 YEARS.
I'm assume you have a variable list after the response.write command?
| 718 |
avanti Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:36:55am |
Fox News just now on Loughner:
" A left wing pot head that worshiped the devil."
| 719 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:37:10am |
re: #711 albusteve
will Palin, the media whore, publicaly speak about her targets and reload comment?, fess up to the violent rhetoric of the GOP?...or will Palin, the privacy victim whitewash, backtrack and pretend from inside a made up reality that fits her reality that half the country is imagining things?...seems to me, every talking head in the country would want to pin her for her recklessness or vindicate her innocence
in a half perfect world, her career would be over....I never saw that target thing until after the shooting, and I went from nearly total indifference to her worst enemy instantly....I really want to see her burn
| 720 |
lawhawk Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:37:42am |
re: #714 Ericus58
My LG blu ray died over new year's. One moment it was working. The next it didn't even meet the qualifications for a paperweight. Tech support was little help and it was just out of warranty (and labor charge would have been pretty much the cost of a new player). So, I went and bought a new player - a Sony that has 3d capability for less than I paid on the original LG.
All the players seem to be pretty easy to hook up and get working. Never had any issues with my other home theater gear, so this was a first. Probably wont buy another LG product - not keen on their quality.
| 722 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:39:56am |
re: #715 Alouette
Can you clip/paste the code here... or send me an email, or is it spaghetti'ed all over the place, too fragmented for me to follow the flow?
| 723 |
avanti Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:40:51am |
re: #719 albusteve
in a half perfect world, her career would be over...I never saw that target thing until after the shooting, and I went from nearly total indifference to her worst enemy instantly...I really want to see her burn
I don't think Palin intended any malice, she just got caught up in her own stupid rhetoric. I just think she's a sandwich short of a picnic.
| 724 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:42:49am |
re: #718 avanti
Fox News just now on Loughner:
" A left wing pot head that worshiped the devil."
followed by this title on their web page....
Arizona Massacre Prompts Political 'Cheap Shots'
reading it tells you it's only a cheap shot depending on the direction it comes from
| 725 |
avanti Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:44:01am |
re: #721 SteelPH
Biiig surprise.
I have to ask why a leftie targeted the Democratic congress woman ? Is the right pro pot, and more supportive of "devil worship" and thus spared ?
| 726 |
lawhawk Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:44:02am |
It's extremely troubling to see the right wing try to claim that the left wing trotted out the violent imagery and talk as some means to excuse all the vapid and violent rhetoric emenating from the right wing these days.
Instead of making excuses or playing the blame game - how about ending the violent rhetoric. Step up and make the effort. Purge the violent craziness from the rhetoric and stop backing people who make idiotic comments.
Enough is enough.
Sad thing is I know it wont happen. And there's a serious disconnect among those on the right who should know better. They're reflexively trying to spin Loughner as some kind of creation of the left wing or that the Democrats are spinning this to make the right wing look bad.
Loughner may or may not have mental health issues, but no one can deny that the right wing has engaged in violent rhetoric - that goes above and beyond civilized political discourse. Even if it had zero effect on Loughner (and until the mental health experts and law enforcement complete their investigations no one can say with certainty that he was or wasn't), toning down the violent rhetoric should be a priority.
Because if it wasn't Loughner, it will be someone else down the road.
| 727 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:45:52am |
re: #723 avanti
I don't think Palin intended any malice, she just got caught up in her own stupid rhetoric. I just think she's a sandwich short of a picnic.
I don't give a fuck what her intentions were....that she helped fuel the toxic climate for two years is indisputable and I'd like to hear her take
| 728 |
darthstar Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:46:10am |
| 729 |
Ming Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:47:32am |
It is fascinating to see some of the right-wingers reveal their psychology, in response to the tragedy in Tucson. There are also plenty of contemptible liberals; I remember Cynthia McKinney. But the spotlight is on the right wing now, and I still cling to hope that a few of them will acknowledge that recent right-wing rhetoric should be toned down a bit. Such rhetoric does have an impact on many people, including the mentally unstable.
| 730 |
Reginald Perrin Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:47:32am |
re: #723 avanti
I doubt that any of the individuals that have been spouting this violent rhetoric actually hoped that it would lead to what occurred this past Saturday.
That said, words have consequences. The higher-ups in the GOP failed to take into account unintended consequences of their inflammable message.
| 731 |
avanti Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:50:11am |
re: #726 lawhawk
It's extremely troubling to see the right wing try to claim that the left wing trotted out the violent imagery and talk as some means to excuse all the vapid and violent rhetoric emenating from the right wing these days.
Instead of making excuses or playing the blame game - how about ending the violent rhetoric. Step up and make the effort. Purge the violent craziness from the rhetoric and stop backing people who make idiotic comments.
Enough is enough.
Sad thing is I know it wont happen. And there's a serious disconnect among those on the right who should know better. They're reflexively trying to spin Loughner as some kind of creation of the left wing or that the Democrats are spinning this to make the right wing look bad.
Loughner may or may not have mental health issues, but no one can deny that the right wing has engaged in violent rhetoric - that goes above and beyond civilized political discourse. Even if it had zero effect on Loughner (and until the mental health experts and law enforcement complete their investigations no one can say with certainty that he was or wasn't), toning down the violent rhetoric should be a priority.
Because if it wasn't Loughner, it will be someone else down the road.
As I've said before, a respected Republican, perhaps George Bush, should step up and condemn the over the top, heated rhetoric from both sides. Simply agree to disagree without being disagreeable.
I don't want to see free speech restrained, just drop it down a notch.
| 732 |
Reginald Perrin Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:50:52am |
re: #725 avanti
I have to ask why a leftie targeted the Democratic congress woman ? Is the right pro pot, and more supportive of "devil worship" and thus spared ?
Quite a few wing-nut blogs are pushing the meme that she was a blue dog democrat and the shooting was provoked by the fact that she was a moderate.
| 733 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:50:59am |
Despite having a sordid history of using vitriolic rhetoric, George Soros-funded advocacy group MoveOn has seized upon the tragic shooting of Ariz. Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords and other attendees of a public event in Tucson Saturday as a means to go after “overt and implied appeals to violence in our political debate.”
MoveOn steps up to the plate, in spite of their past, sordid record
Read more: [Link: dailycaller.com...]
| 734 |
Artist Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:51:26am |
re: #731 avanti
Dubya's not exactly respected among the GOP anymore.
| 735 |
lawhawk Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:51:51am |
re: #731 avanti
As I've said before, a respected Republican, perhaps George Bush, should step up and condemn the over the top, heated rhetoric from both sides. Simply agree to disagree without being disagreeable.
Damned straight.
| 736 |
Tigger2 Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:52:24am |
re: #455 eltito
I'm not sure I'm making my point well enough.
Politics was not his motivation, insanity was. Politics can't motivate a person incapable of comprehending them.
Nice spin maneuver.
| 737 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:53:07am |
re: #733 albusteve
Despite having a sordid history of using vitriolic rhetoric, George Soros-funded advocacy group MoveOn has seized upon the tragic shooting of Ariz. Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords and other attendees of a public event in Tucson Saturday as a means to go after “overt and implied appeals to violence in our political debate.”
MoveOn steps up to the plate, in spite of their past, sordid record
Read more: [Link: dailycaller.com...]
How about a hero's words, then?:
| 738 |
darthstar Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:54:57am |
I wonder if, in the spirit of toning down violent rhetoric, Boehner and Co. will rename the health care repeal bill they delayed voting on to remove the word "killing" from its title.
| 739 |
avanti Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:55:56am |
re: #727 albusteve
I don't give a fuck what her intentions were...that she helped fuel the toxic climate for two years is indisputable and I'd like to hear her take
I agree, maybe she'll do some soul searching and dial back the hate. Her, Beck and the rest must think about their words, and their effect on the wingnuts. Back in the Vietnam days, the left was largely responsible for the treatment of our troops, and some violence. They were so obsessed with being against the war, that the warrior felt the heat as much as the war.
| 740 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:56:02am |
re: #731 avanti
As I've said before, a respected Republican, perhaps George Bush, should step up and condemn the over the top, heated rhetoric from both sides. Simply agree to disagree without being disagreeable.
I don't want to see free speech restrained, just drop it down a notch.
"Both sides"? A "respected Republican" (if GHWB or GWB are still respected among the Republican base) should tell that to their side. Telling it to the "other" side is not only useless, it's insulting, suggesting that the Democrats have been engaged in such rhetoric in the first place. If and when such rhetoric appears on the Democratic side, then a "respected Democrat" should raise her voice aimed at the Democrats, but that hasn't happened yet.
| 741 |
avanti Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:56:55am |
re: #734 SteelPH
Dubya's not exactly respected among the GOP anymore.
Yep, and if he spoke out, he'd be labeled a RHINO.
| 742 |
avanti Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:58:34am |
re: #740 Sergey Romanov
"Both sides"? A "respected Republican" (if GHWB or GWB are still respected among the Republican base) should tell that to their side. Telling it to the "other" side is not only useless, it's insulting, suggesting that the Democrats have been engaged in such rhetoric in the first place. If and when such rhetoric appears on the Democratic side, then a "respected Democrat" should raise her voice aimed at the Democrats, but that hasn't happened yet.
The Democrats are not without sin, but I agree it's the GOP's turn at the plate recently.
| 743 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:59:10am |
| 744 |
McSpiff Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:00:24am |
re: #743 albusteve
that is highly debatable
Dubya is not respected by those causing the problem at hand. Fair?
| 746 |
avanti Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:01:24am |
re: #738 darthstar
I wonder if, in the spirit of toning down violent rhetoric, Boehner and Co. will rename the health care repeal bill they delayed voting on to remove the word "killing" from its title.
Not likely, the right wing blogs are already saying that doing that would be a surrender to the lefties, and too dangerous a move . They claim they'd target any "traitors" in the primaries.
| 747 |
Ericus58 Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:02:43am |
An American Hero has passed away:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
| 748 |
iossarian Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:03:56am |
re: #738 darthstar
I wonder if, in the spirit of toning down violent rhetoric, Boehner and Co. will rename the health care repeal bill they delayed voting on to remove the word "killing" from its title.
Job killing is the worst kind of killing. Everyone knows that.
If people want to kill to prevent jobs from being killed, well, that's just the way things work in the ol' US of A.
| 749 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:04:53am |
re: #742 avanti
The Democrats are not without sin, but I agree it's the GOP's turn at the plate recently.
I'm not suggesting Dems are sinless, but has it been ever that bad in the last few decades (before that is basically a different party)? At most they have some short-lived wackos like Grayson, or manage to invite loons like Sharpton to the DNC convention, but that's about that. And yes, I know all about leftist hatemongering, like the "Kill Bush" signs, but were these folks pandered to by the top tier? Cindy Sheehan was "kicked out" as soon as she has shown her true extremist colors and hasn't been remembered since. Do the Reps do that with their extremists?
| 750 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:05:21am |
re: #744 McSpiff
Dubya is not respected by those causing the problem at hand. Fair?
doesn't seem like it...but for whatever he said, did or stood for, it pales in comparison with this new wave smack from the GOP....the answer is within the party, so respected or not, change must come from there....these assholes should not need a celebrity to calm them down
| 751 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:06:19am |
| 753 |
McSpiff Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:07:31am |
re: #750 albusteve
doesn't seem like it...but for whatever he said, did or stood for, it pales in comparison with this new wave smack from the GOP...the answer is within the party, so respected or not, change must come from there...these assholes should not need a celebrity to calm them down
I don't know what will calm these people down. Its starting to get awfully worrisome.
| 754 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:07:45am |
re: #747 Ericus58
An American Hero has passed away:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
I met him once. He was everything you'd expect.
| 755 |
Ericus58 Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:09:02am |
re: #747 Ericus58
My wife watched the entire series of Band of Brothers with me - it was a Christmas gift from her to me.
Several times she was moved to tears, as was I actually. The sacrifices were high for many of that generation.
The series also gave to her a heartfelt appreciation for the duty and hardship her father had experienced as a crewman on a B-17 having been shot down and rescued in Belgium.
"The Gentlemen from Hell"
| 756 |
iossarian Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:09:05am |
re: #749 Sergey Romanov
I'm not suggesting Dems are sinless, but has it been ever that bad in the last few decades (before that is basically a different party)? At most they have some short-lived wackos like Grayson, or manage to invite loons like Sharpton to the DNC convention, but that's about that. And yes, I know all about leftist hatemongering, like the "Kill Bush" signs, but were these folks pandered to by the top tier? Cindy Sheehan was "kicked out" as soon as she has shown her true extremist colors and hasn't been remembered since. Do the Reps do that with their extremists?
Everyone who reads site this knows that I am hardly unpartisan. But can you imagine what people would have made of it if Palin had used Obama's "if they bring a knife, we bring a gun" line?
I think this whole situation is a bit overblown. Do people need to stop voting Republican because the GOP is in the tank for a few mega-rich bastards who want to screw the rest of us for every dime we have? Yes. Does that put the Republicans on the hook for a crazyman who took the whole "politics as war" frame seriously? Not really.
| 757 |
lawhawk Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:11:29am |
re: #726 lawhawk
Extending my previous comments:
The right wing has been playing the No True Scotsman game and Tu Quoque, and it's time for them to stop. You can't defend the indefensible by claiming the other side did it first or is continuing to do it. The right wing claims it is better than that - well put up and stop making over the top statements that can encourage others to violence.
Whatever the left may have done in the past shouldn't (and doesn't) excuse the violent statements and rhetoric on the right. Bad is bad.
| 758 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:11:43am |
re: #756 iossarian
Everyone who reads site this knows that I am hardly unpartisan. But can you imagine what people would have made of it if Palin had used Obama's "if they bring a knife, we bring a gun" line?
I think this whole situation is a bit overblown. Do people need to stop voting Republican because the GOP is in the tank for a few mega-rich bastards who want to screw the rest of us for every dime we have? Yes. Does that put the Republicans on the hook for a crazyman who took the whole "politics as war" frame seriously? Not really.
But I don't see nothing wrong with President Obama's statement "if they bring a knife, we bring a gun"... that sentence would be taken as political rhetoric, maybe a bit hyperbolic, but no one but a madman would would take that to heart.
| 759 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:12:43am |
re: #756 iossarian
There is a pattern of violent rhetoric coming from the right and the GOP. And, as Killgore has noted, there is more dangerously the dehumanization and demonization of their opponents. Claims that Obama is attempting to destroy the United States, that he's the enemy of freedom; those superlatives are more dangerous than the violent rhetoric on its own.
I am not attempting to say that this killer shot specifically because of the rhetoric from the right wing. That doesn't mean that the rhetoric from the right isn't incredibly stupid and dangerous.
| 760 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:13:25am |
re: #756 iossarian
Everyone who reads site this knows that I am hardly unpartisan. But can you imagine what people would have made of it if Palin had used Obama's "if they bring a knife, we bring a gun" line?
Yes, and that's because things are said in context. Obama is not someone pandering to "God, guns, guts" crowd. On the other hand, imagine if Obama said that he looked into Putin's soul and saw a good man.
I think this whole situation is a bit overblown. Do people need to stop voting Republican because the GOP is in the tank for a few mega-rich bastards who want to screw the rest of us for every dime we have? Yes. Does that put the Republicans on the hook for a crazyman who took the whole "politics as war" frame seriously? Not really.
While for some it is putting on the hook (cf. YT videos blaming Palin directly), the question of atmosphere is a fair one.
| 761 |
McSpiff Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:14:40am |
re: #758 Walter L. Newton
But I don't see nothing wrong with President Obama's statement "if they bring a knife, we bring a gun"... that sentence would be taken as political rhetoric, maybe a bit hyperbolic, but no one but a madman would would take that to heart.
Now imagine the rest of the Dem party machine was saturating the media in that message and we start to approach the GOPs current situation...
| 762 |
lawhawk Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:16:04am |
And if the craziness with Loughner isn't enough, I've got my candidate for scumbag of the year. Guy creates Facebook page and then takes the photo of a deceased soldier and uses it as his own to get women on Facebook.
The guy, who went by the name Dylan Sorvino from New York on Facebook, apparently appropriated the photo of a deceased soldier for his Facebook page and began courting women.
It was only after someone who knew the deceased soldier, Sgt. Roberto Sanchez who was killed in combat in Afghanistan in 2009 after five tours of duty, found Sorvino's page and Sanchez's comrades confronted him online that Sorvino took down the page.
Bastard. I hope his true identity is revealed and he's prosecuted to the fullest extent under the law (at a minimum he appears to have impersonated a member of the military, which can lead to up to 6 months in prison).
| 763 |
avanti Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:16:28am |
If you want a model for real patriots, the nine year old that died and her father could be it. Watch the video:
| 764 |
iossarian Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:17:17am |
re: #760 Sergey Romanov
I pretty much agree with you. I think part of the problem here is that, by its nature, the right-wing viewpoint (at least socially) is a rejection of the "other", usually out of fear.
The question is, should people be allowed (in either the legal or the moral sense) to pander/appeal to that kind of attitude? I think it's more or less dependent on the local context (as I've argued before, for example with respect to laws banning Holocaust denial in postwar Germany).
| 765 |
darthstar Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:18:16am |
Erick Erection, the other Brietbart who works at Redstate and CNN, shows his ignorance with this comment:
When John F. Kennedy was assassinated, one of the first thoughts of many was that it was an ultra-right winger who did. Turned out to be a Karl Marx fan.When Congresswoman Giffords was shot, immediately the media wanted to discuss heated rhetoric and the tea parties. Turned out the shooter is a Karl Marx fan.
Well, that settles it.
| 766 |
Jadespring Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:20:50am |
re: #736 Tigger2
Nice spin maneuver.
Yep to me the notion that someone who has a mental health problem cannot be influenced, motivated or even understand 'politics', political rhetoric or anything else remotely 'political' and thus is not a motivating factor at play is just a load of hooey. They might not 'understand' or see it or come to the same sorts of conclusions that someone without the problem has but the influencing factor can sure as heck be there.
I had an experience with a colleague when I was working in a politically oriented job. He had had mental problems in the past but was fine and then had a relapse. This guy was smart, educated, intelligent and intensely interested in politics (why he had the job). It happened slowly but eventually became quite obvious that something was wrong. In his case his solution and conclusions of what he had to do and work on were benign. He had through lot of work come to in his mind the 'reasoned' understanding that the solution to what was going on in the world today was a world wide campaign around ringing bells. So everything became about bells. He brought bells into work, he gave out bells, he saw bells all over the place and in meetings he connected everything with bells and peace. It was weird. He had worked out that the solution to what the government in Canada and the US were doing, the wars, terrorism everything was to have everyone in the world ring a bell at the exact same time. His 'ring a bell for peace' campaign.
He gave me a copy of his 'reasoning'. His journal. Quite an extraordinary thing that was. It made no sense and at the same time made perfect sense within it's own set of internalized logic. It was mostly all 'politics' and stuff to do with politics.
Anyways we got him help and although the 'peace bell' campaign solution was dropped his underlying politics and what drives him didn't change much. It was all still there just in more reasoned manner. Last I heard he's still working in that realm. His focus on bringing about solutions to conflict and justice by peaceful means.
| 767 |
Ericus58 Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:21:02am |
| 768 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:21:43am |
re: #764 iossarian
I pretty much agree with you. I think part of the problem here is that, by its nature, the right-wing viewpoint (at least socially) is a rejection of the "other", usually out of fear.
The question is, should people be allowed (in either the legal or the moral sense) to pander/appeal to that kind of attitude? I think it's more or less dependent on the local context (as I've argued before, for example with respect to laws banning Holocaust denial in postwar Germany).
I agree that it should be a local issue, although I'm strictly anti-HD-laws, both for practical reasons and in principle. I'm all for hate speech laws where they are needed, be it Germany or Russia. The problem, of course, is where to stop. Article 282 in Russia is used both to punish the true hate speech and to persecute the democratic opposition.
| 769 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:24:15am |
I took one of those tests online which purportedly help one determine where their thinking falls in the political spectrum. It was one of those multi- axis things...
I ended up plotted on a direct line between Mahatma Gandhi and the Dalai Lama, right next to the Dalai Lama.
| 770 |
mr.fusion Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:24:34am |
re: #730 Reginald Perrin
I doubt that any of the individuals that have been spouting this violent rhetoric actually hoped that it would lead to what occurred this past Saturday.
That said, words have consequences. The higher-ups in the GOP failed to take into account unintended consequences of their inflammable message.
EXACTLY--- the fear has ALWAYS been that a lone wolf, sociopath, deranged lunatic, would take it too far. Now that it's happened you can't just say "he was just a lone wolf! A sociopath! A deranged lunatic!
| 771 |
mr.fusion Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:26:30am |
re: #770 mr.fusion
EXACTLY--- the fear has ALWAYS been that a lone wolf, sociopath, deranged lunatic, would take it too far. Now that it's happened you can't just say "he was just a lone wolf! A sociopath! A deranged lunatic!
sorry-- to finish that thought. The fear was that a nut would take it too far.....so when it happens, you can't just use that to clear yourself from any responsibility.
| 772 |
iossarian Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:26:58am |
| 773 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:28:28am |
re: #772 iossarian
OMG REINCARNATION!
Has Eddie Murphy been hanging around your neighborhood?
Just Joseph Heller...
| 774 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:29:27am |
Off topic... (well, it's an open thread)
The summit of the Eiffel Tower is CLOSED for renovations until Feb. 4th... you can only go to the second level, where the legs end and the vertical part of the tower starts. I had this happen to me in 2001. I've been to the summit a number of times, but my girlfriend hasn't. Going to the second level is like premature ejaculation... it's fun for someone, but you don't get the full effect.
"I think you think this is all fucked. It's 200 feet more to the fucking summit and you want to bail out. Well I'll tell you something. This is no longer a vacation. It's a quest. It's a quest for the summit. I'm gonna have fun and you're gonna have fun. We're all gonna have so much fucking fun we'll need plastic surgery to remove our goddamn smiles. You'll be whistling 'Zip-A-Dee Doo-Dah' out of you're assholes! I gotta be crazy! I'm on a pilgrimage to see the summit."
(Apologies to National Lampoon's Vacation)
| 775 |
iossarian Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:31:01am |
re: #774 Walter L. Newton
I like the view from the Sacre Coeur. I don't think I've actually ever been up the Eiffel Tower.
| 776 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:34:17am |
re: #753 McSpiff
I don't know what will calm these people down. Its starting to get awfully worrisome.
fear....for their jobs if in congress, or fear from castigation if not....a loathing from their peers etc
| 777 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:35:53am |
re: #775 iossarian
I like the view from the Sacre Coeur. I don't think I've actually ever been up the Eiffel Tower.
We'll be visiting Sacre Coeur... actually, our hotel is near by. Between Belleville and Pere Lachaise in the Ménilmontant neighborhood.
| 778 |
lawhawk Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:36:43am |
re: #774 Walter L. Newton
Tour Montparnasse isn't the Eiffel Tower, but you do get the commanding view (and a view of the Eiffel Tower). Sucks that you'll be there in one of those periods when they close the upper deck.
| 779 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:37:52am |
re: #775 iossarian
I like the view from the Sacre Coeur. I don't think I've actually ever been up the Eiffel Tower.
I've been up in the Tower of Terror a few times....terrific view but you gotta look fast
| 780 |
lawhawk Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:38:10am |
re: #775 iossarian
There are some pretty impressive vantage points to see Paris besides the Eiffel Tower. The Notre Dame tour gives a pretty good view as does Sacre Coeur and the Arc d'Triomphe. Tour Montparnasse is another, but haven't been to the top (just ran out of time).
| 781 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:39:26am |
re: #780 lawhawk
There are some pretty impressive vantage points to see Paris besides the Eiffel Tower. The Notre Dame tour gives a pretty good view as does Sacre Coeur and the Arc d'Triomphe. Tour Montparnasse is another, but haven't been to the top (just ran out of time).
heli tours?
| 782 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:39:31am |
re: #747 Ericus58
An American Hero has passed away:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
thanks for that...
| 783 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:42:42am |
| 784 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:44:15am |
re: #775 iossarian
I like the view from the Sacre Coeur. I don't think I've actually ever been up the Eiffel Tower.
You mean like this (Jan. 2007)...
| 785 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:44:55am |
re: #645 Obdicut
Diagnosing schizophrenia over the interwebs is not a good idea.
Yeah. It's pretty much like diagnosing the mental abilities of a vegetative patient by watching videos of them, and about as accurate.
| 786 |
lawhawk Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:49:08am |
Accuweather and the NWS are predicting a significant snow storm for the NE starting tomorrow night into Wednesday. Not quite the monster amounts of the Boxing Day snowpocalypse, but significant still. Areas around NYC could see up to a foot of snow, and depending on the storm track, they may revise the figures.
NWS figures seem to have lowered the storm total, so they're pushing the track out to the East. That's good news for the City which would see less snow. However, if the track pushes West, the City gets hammered again.
| 787 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:50:34am |
| 788 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:53:56am |
whoa Nellie....
It’s an increasingly thorny question. Until recently, a handful of U.S. slaughterhouses processed horse meat for consumers overseas. But in 2007 Congress cut off the USDA’s funding for inspectors. Since then, says a study published last month in the Journal of Animal Science
, a flood of unwanted horses has been unleashed on the American west.
Last week a national “horse summit” convened in Las Vegas to discuss this issue. And there’s lots to talk about. Tens of thousands of horses are starving at any given time in the United States. And many U.S. horses are still slaughtered for food, but now (thanks to HSUS) they’re trucked great distances to Canada and Mexico.
Read more: [Link: dailycaller.com...]
Read more: [Link: dailycaller.com...]
| 789 |
McSpiff Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:54:28am |
re: #783 Walter L. Newton
re: #778 lawhawk
It's just the "doing" part of it. As much as I don't play tourist when I'm in Europe, there's no doubt, at least for your first time, you like to see certain things, just to say you did it. The girlfriend will be a bit disappointed.
That's why I coughed up whatever ridiculous amount they were asking for when it came to gondola rides in Venice. Figured it was cliched for a reason. Totally worth it.
| 790 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:54:29am |
re: #787 albusteve
bah...looks just like Peroia
I don't think so... here is the Sacre Cour, which is behind me in the picture I took. I have pictures of the church, but I don't feel like uploading them... so... here's someone else's picture... from a link...
| 791 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:58:14am |
Slate defends hostile rhetoric?...
For as long as I've been alive, crosshairs and bull's-eyes have been an accepted part of the graphical lexicon when it comes to political debates. Such "inflammatory" words as targeting, attacking, destroying, blasting, crushing, burying, knee-capping, and others have similarly guided political thought and action. Not once have the use of these images or words tempted me or anybody else I know to kill. I've listened to, read—and even written!—vicious attacks on government without reaching for my gun. I've even gotten angry, for goodness' sake, without coming close to assassinating a politician or a judge.
Our spirited political discourse, complete with name-calling, vilification—and, yes, violent imagery—is a good thing. Better that angry people unload their fury in public than let it fester and turn septic in private. The wicked direction the American debate often takes is not a sign of danger but of freedom. And I'll punch out the lights of anybody who tries to take it away from me.
[Link: www.slate.com...]
| 792 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:59:17am |
re: #789 McSpiff
That's why I coughed up whatever ridiculous amount they were asking for when it came to gondola rides in Venice. Figured it was cliched for a reason. Totally worth it.
One of the most touristy things to do in Paris, is something I do recommend, especially if you are there for the first time. The Bateaux-Mouches. the sightseeing barges on the Seine.
Three hundred or so tourists at a time, a bored guide giving you a narrative in three languages, attendants selling soft drinks and candy at inflated prices... but there is nothing more beautiful then seeing Paris from the river on a boat... especially at night.
| 793 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 8:59:45am |
re: #790 Walter L. Newton
I don't think so... here is the Sacre Cour, which is behind me in the picture I took. I have pictures of the church, but I don't feel like uploading them... so... here's someone else's picture... from a link...
quaint little church on a hill
| 794 |
simoom Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:00:47am |
re: #733 albusteve
MoveOn steps up to the plate, in spite of their past, sordid record
Read more: [Link: dailycaller.com...]
While MoveOn is, in general, a worthless platform for an advocacy campaign (as their org. carries too much baggage), it's truly impressive, the amount of mileage Daily Caller is getting from a three sentence internet petition.
| 795 |
Gus Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:01:08am |
4oF and clear skies.re: #791 albusteve
Slate defends hostile rhetoric?...
For as long as I've been alive, crosshairs and bull's-eyes have been an accepted part of the graphical lexicon when it comes to political debates. Such "inflammatory" words as targeting, attacking, destroying, blasting, crushing, burying, knee-capping, and others have similarly guided political thought and action. Not once have the use of these images or words tempted me or anybody else I know to kill. I've listened to, read—and even written!—vicious attacks on government without reaching for my gun. I've even gotten angry, for goodness' sake, without coming close to assassinating a politician or a judge.
Our spirited political discourse, complete with name-calling, vilification—and, yes, violent imagery—is a good thing. Better that angry people unload their fury in public than let it fester and turn septic in private. The wicked direction the American debate often takes is not a sign of danger but of freedom. And I'll punch out the lights of anybody who tries to take it away from me.
[Link: www.slate.com...]
Not really Slate per se but the opinion of Jack Shafer who writes for Slate. Generally speaking it would be the opinion of Slate if it was an "editorial".
| 796 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:01:15am |
re: #789 McSpiff
That's why I coughed up whatever ridiculous amount they were asking for when it came to gondola rides in Venice. Figured it was cliched for a reason. Totally worth it.
yup...you gotta pay if you want the experience...sometimes it's not worth the effort if you don't cough it up
| 798 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:02:14am |
re: #793 albusteve
quaint little church on a hill
Hey... Saint Denis was martyred on Montmartre (that little hill) and walked around Paris with his head in his arms. A miracle.
| 799 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:02:35am |
re: #795 Gus 802
4oF and clear skies.
Not really Slate per se but the opinion of Jack Shafer who writes for Slate. Generally speaking it would be the opinion of Slate if it was an "editorial".
then in this case, I have to turn Jack off
| 800 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:02:44am |
I'm not sure if anyone here has seen this yet, but it sure as hell looks like something Loughner would write:
Is it possible for an infinite source of currency?
If a member of the treasury creates 5 new currency's then the new currency replaces the previous currency.
If the new currency replaces the previous currency then the previous currency is no longer in use.
A members of the treasury creates 5 new currency's.
Therefore, the previous currency is no longer in use.
If the treasury creates a new currency then the new currency will replace the previous currency.
The treasury creates a new currency.
Therefore, the new currency will replace the previous currency.If the treasury creates one new currency then why couldn't they create an infinite amount?
Wouldn't be beautiful to see your face on the new coins?
I would bet that is his post.
| 801 |
Gus Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:03:15am |
re: #799 albusteve
then in this case, I have to turn Jack off
Oops. I left my weather report attached to that comment.
| 802 |
tradewind Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:03:42am |
While blaming rhetoric from either side for this whackjob's heinous action misses the mark entirely , if it must persist, let's blame Mark Penn, since it doesn't get anymore twisted than this:
[Link: www.mediaite.com...]
| 803 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:03:53am |
re: #798 Walter L. Newton
Hey... Saint Denis was martyred on Montmartre (that little hill) and walked around Paris with his head in his arms. A miracle.
now that would be worth a franc or two to witness...do they have a redo at noon or whatever
| 804 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:03:57am |
| 805 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:04:35am |
re: #804 Walter L. Newton
Sounds just like Ron Paul.
Well, the shooter sounded like Ron Paul hopped up on bad syllogisms.
| 806 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:04:50am |
re: #803 albusteve
now that would be worth a franc or two to witness...do they have a redo at noon or whatever
LOL.
| 808 |
Jadespring Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:07:58am |
re: #791 albusteve
Our spirited political discourse, complete with name-calling, vilification—and, yes, violent imagery—is a good thing. Better that angry people unload their fury in public than let it fester and turn septic in private. The wicked direction the American debate often takes is not a sign of danger but of freedom. And I'll punch out the lights of anybody who tries to take it away from me.
[Link: www.slate.com...]
Oh bull. Sounds like catharisis psychology, that expressing anger and frustration with things like foam bats or punching a pillow while imagining it's the person you're angry with releases it. It doesn't work and has been shown to make things worse. Angry rhetoric doesn't release it just creates more anger even though it might feel cathartic at the time.
| 809 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:08:22am |
You know... I go to Disney World for the first time in my life last Oct. My first time at any Disney property, I I suspect I visited their website at some point...
Now it's Disney, Disney, Disney... I can go to the most obscure web sites, and if they have ads, I'm getting fed Disney ads... I got a Mad Mickey Cookie hiding on my 'puter somewhere.
| 810 |
tradewind Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:08:32am |
re: #786 lawhawk
We're snowed in in the delta, a rare thing.
Pretty though.
| 811 |
Gus Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:09:43am |
re: #804 Walter L. Newton
Sounds just like Ron Paul.
Did you see that Loughner is being reported as "an ardent atheist"? Boy, are we in trouble.
| 812 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:10:47am |
"But please look into protection for your family. An attempt on you could bring the republic down."-- Glenn Beck, giving advice to Sarah Palin in the aftermath of the Arizona shootings.
The victim circle is complete. We knew this would happen.
| 813 |
Reginald Perrin Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:11:19am |
You never quit trying.
The magic balance fairy strikes again.
*yawn*
| 814 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:11:25am |
re: #811 Gus 802
Did you see that Loughner is being reported as "an ardent atheist"? Boy, are we in trouble.
An ardent wingnut atheist... that's rare. Next someone is going to tell us is that he was into pagan wingnut religious ritual.
| 815 |
Gus Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:12:46am |
re: #814 Walter L. Newton
An ardent wingnut atheist... that's rare. Next someone is going to tell us is that he was into pagan wingnut religious ritual.
He had one of those too. Or at least some kind of ritual space with a skull.
| 816 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:13:06am |
re: #812 Stanley Sea
The victim circle is complete. We knew this would happen.
Yep. Sarah has already painted herself as the real victim.
| 817 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:13:22am |
re: #815 Gus 802
He had one of those too. Or at least some kind of ritual space with a skull.
A Templar?
| 818 |
Jadespring Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:14:37am |
re: #800 Fozzie Bear
I'm not sure if anyone here has seen this yet, but it sure as hell looks like something Loughner would write:
I would bet that is his post.
I know a few of people that could have written like that and couple in real life and a few from some other boards. One guy is always writing out 'logical' arguments that way on every subject under the sun. I think it's a huge assumption that only Loughner could write that way or write something like that.
| 820 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:15:28am |
re: #573 Shiplord Kirel
In this charmingly titled Telegraph Blog entry, the talented but deranged James Delingpole continues his one-man crusade to infect the UK with the tea party crazy:
The Arizona shootings were like Kwanzaa come early for America's liberal fascists
Ok, James, who boasts (falsely) about having all the guns? Whose protest signs regularly feature guns and threats to use them? Who had a map showing crosshairs on the home districts of her opponents? Which side of the spectrum do the gold bugs and currency conspircists inhabit (excluding the now jailed shooter, of course)?
I'm going to ignore the incredible grotesqueness of this piece, and simply point out that Kwanzaa has been over for more than a week. If you're going to use it as a...God, I don't even know what to call that...you should at least know when it happens.
| 821 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:15:31am |
re: #814 Walter L. Newton
An ardent wingnut atheist... that's rare. Next someone is going to tell us is that he was into pagan wingnut religious ritual.
This guy is a strange mix to be sure, but I think atheism is less rare in the hardcore libertarian crowd than on the right as a whole.
| 822 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:16:23am |
re: #814 Walter L. Newton
An ardent wingnut atheist... that's rare. Next someone is going to tell us is that he was into pagan wingnut religious ritual.
An atheist libertarian... Quatsch. Unheard of.
| 823 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:16:25am |
re: #818 Jadespring
I know a few of people that could have written like that and couple in real life and a few from some other boards. One guy is always writing out 'logical' arguments that way on every subject under the sun. I think it's a huge assumption that only Loughner could write that way or write something like that.
Look at the writing style, the subject matter, and the diagrams linked in his posts. It's him, i'd bet money on it.
| 824 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:16:40am |
re: #580 rwdflynavy
Good Morning Lizards!
Time for some sage wisdom from a former VP.
"I believe we are on an irreversible trend toward more freedom and democracy - but that could change."
Dan Quayle
Good old Dan.
| 825 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:17:29am |
re: #583 rwdflynavy
Statement from Secretary Gates:
"I am saddened to hear of the attack on Congresswoman Giffords and members of her staff earlier today in Tucson, Arizona. I have had an opportunity to interact with Congresswoman Giffords in her capacity as a member of the House Armed Services Committee, where she served on the Readiness and Air and Land Forces subcommittees. She is a strong supporter of America's national defense, cares deeply about our men and women in uniform, and has pursued her oversight responsibilities with dedication. Our thoughts are also with her husband, Navy Captain Mark Kelly, an aviator and astronaut of great distinction, as well as the families of the other victims of this attack. Ms. Giffords represents a new generation of principled and thoughtful political leaders that have come to Washington in recent years. We will miss her strong character and good judgment in the Congress during these important days ahead, and we are praying for her full recovery."
I haven't followed Rep Giffords much, didn't realize her husband was a Navy pilot and astronaut.
I didn't know that until this happened. They were running wedding pictures with him in his whites.
Apparently his brother is also an astronaut, and is currently in orbit. Hell of a time.
| 826 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:18:33am |
re: #595 Sergey Romanov
I'm skimming through a stormfront mega-thread about Laughner, now on p. 24 and they've already linked to Pammie twice to prove he is a leftist.
Is there some kind of Mendoza line, where your craziness overrides your Semiticness?
| 827 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:19:40am |
Another link from abovetopsecret, same poster:
What is wrong or right with the current date?
How is the current date right or wrong?
Why is or isn't this the date?
When is or isn't the date ending or beginning?
Today is July 7th 2010.
Why is the year infinite in the date?
Example:
Today is July 7th 201062010654843578465784151015954324841895498201065484357846578415101595432484189549820106548435784657841510159543248418954982010654843578465784151015 954324841895498201065484357846578415101595432484189549820106548435784657841510159543248418954982010654843578465784151015954324841895498201065484357846 578415101595432484189549820106548435784657841510159543248418954982010654843578465784151015954324841895498201065484357846578415101595432484189549820106 548435784657841510159543248418954982010654843578465784151015954324841895498201065484357846578415101595432484189549820106548435784657841510159543248418 954982010654843578465784151015954324841895498201065484357846578415101595432484189549820106548435784657841510159543248418954982010654843578465784151015 954324841895498201065484357846578415101595432484189549820106548435784657841510159543248418954982010654843578465784151015954324841895498548435784657841 51015954324841895498This will or will not continue in year for how long?
What are the viewers thoughts of a infinite year?
If Erad3 (a partial anagram of the name Jared) on abovetopsecret isn't Jared Loughner, i'll eat my hat.
| 828 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:19:41am |
re: #602 Sergey Romanov
Seems like the DHS tie to AR might have been a dud after all.
That's good, actually.
| 829 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:21:22am |
| 830 |
Gus Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:21:48am |
re: #822 Sergey Romanov
An atheist libertarian... Quatsch. Unheard of.
With a shrine and a ceremonial skull and candles. Technically, a true atheist wouldn't have any of those unless he was doing it for "sport".
| 831 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:22:00am |
| 832 |
KingKenrod Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:22:52am |
| 833 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:23:01am |
re: #831 Walter L. Newton
Now that one sounds just like Sarah Palin... working on her check register or something. Frightening.
Lol. Palin had a buffer overflow.
| 834 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:23:33am |
re: #832 KingKenrod
What kind of website is abovetopsecret? I don't want to click on that link from work.
It's a nutty conspiracy theory site. It's not really all that scary, just extremely weird.
| 835 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:23:41am |
re: #830 Gus 802
With a shrine and a ceremonial skull and candles. Technically, a true atheist wouldn't have any of those unless he was doing it for "sport".
This guy is doing a wonderful job all on his own of destroying any stereotypes.
| 836 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:24:02am |
re: #830 Gus 802
With a shrine and a ceremonial skull and candles. Technically, a true atheist wouldn't have any of those unless he was doing it for "sport".
Well, a lot of Laveyan Satanists are atheists, and they also believe in some sort of magic and do have althars and paraphernalia.
| 837 |
Gus Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:24:10am |
re: #835 Walter L. Newton
This guy is doing a wonderful job all on his own of destroying any stereotypes.
Yeah. He seems to have something for everybody.
| 838 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:24:40am |
re: #836 Sergey Romanov
Well, a lot of Laveyan Satanists are atheists, and they also believe in some sort of magic and do have althars and paraphernalia.
You mean Libertarian Laveyan Satanists?
| 839 |
tradewind Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:24:56am |
Hell's bells. If people are going to place blame on references to ' crosshairs ' on a website, will POTUS get in trouble for his
' they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun ' speech?
It's all silly deflection from the real issue, which is identifying these sickos and getting them off the streets.
| 840 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:24:57am |
| 841 |
Reginald Perrin Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:25:01am |
| 842 |
Gus Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:25:26am |
re: #836 Sergey Romanov
Well, a lot of Laveyan Satanists are atheists, and they also believe in some sort of magic and do have althars and paraphernalia.
Ah. I was thinking along the lines of Gus Atheists™.
/
| 843 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:25:34am |
re: #838 Walter L. Newton
You mean Libertarian Laveyan Satanists?
No, but I don't see why a Laveyan cannot be a libertarian.
| 844 |
msboxer Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:26:11am |
Will the main stream media report that a former classmate referred to him as a "Left-Wing Pot Head"?
[Link: blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com...]
| 845 |
tradewind Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:26:14am |
re: #824 SanFranciscoZionist
"I believe we are on an irreversible trend toward more freedom and democracy"
NTTATWWT.
| 846 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:27:24am |
re: #839 tradewind
Hell's bells. If people are going to place blame on references to ' crosshairs ' on a website, will POTUS get in trouble for his
' they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun ' speech?
It's all silly deflection from the real issue, which is identifying these sickos and getting them off the streets.
Oh come on... that's simply political hyperbole. Do you really think that statement is in any way equivalent to statement like "we can narrow the target list by looking at those Democrats" or "this vote certainly puts a bulls eye on their district..."
Magical Balance Fairy attacks again?
| 847 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:27:33am |
Apparently, Jim "Dim" Hoft fell for a fake Facebook page: [Link: cc.bingj.com...]
| 848 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:27:45am |
re: #844 msboxer
Will the main stream media report that a former classmate referred to him as a "Left-Wing Pot Head"?
[Link: blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com...]
you mean like that link to a news paper you provided?
| 849 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:28:37am |
re: #844 msboxer
Will the main stream media report that a former classmate referred to him as a "Left-Wing Pot Head"?
[Link: blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com...]
I don't think so... did you make up that page?
| 850 |
wrenchwench Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:30:01am |
re: #848 Killgore Trout
you mean like that link to a news paper you provided?
I wouldn't call that mainstream, but I think that "Tweetlog" is all the evidence of friendship that woman has. She didn't know how to spell his name until she looked it up in her yearbook.
| 851 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:31:21am |
re: #844 msboxer
Yeah. A classmate that hadn't seen or talked to him in years said that. Real reliable source there.
| 852 |
tradewind Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:31:30am |
re: #846 Walter L. Newton
Magical Balance Fairy's been retired after overexposure.
But it's amazing that speech is in the crosshairs, when it's just as likely to be a safety valve for some of the weirder out there.
I see that the perp's been assigned the same defense attorney who represented the Unabomber.
She must be a real glutton for punishment.
| 853 |
Reginald Perrin Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:31:34am |
re: #844 msboxer
Will the main stream media report that a former classmate referred to him as a "Left-Wing Pot Head"?
[Link: blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com...]
Fox News will report it, that is if they already haven't.
Enjoy your brief return, bye.
| 854 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:31:48am |
The magical balance fairy needs to take a Valium. She's been sooo busy these past 3 days.
| 855 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:32:21am |
re: #852 tradewind
re: #846 Walter L. Newton
Oh come on... that's simply political hyperbole. Do you really think that statement is in any way equivalent to statement like "we can narrow the target list by looking at those Democrats" or "this vote certainly puts a bulls eye on their district..."
Magical Balance Fairy attacks again?
Rewind... I'm sorry... those statements are from KOS... my mistake...
//
[Link: www.dailykos.com...]
| 856 |
tradewind Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:32:35am |
re: #851 Lidane
I hate to think how reliable a source he'd be considered had he branded the kid a religious nut./
| 857 |
Jadespring Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:32:38am |
re: #823 Fozzie Bear
Look at the writing style, the subject matter, and the diagrams linked in his posts. It's him, i'd bet money on it.
Well go right ahead. I wouldn't. That poster reminds me of a guy in one of my econ classes who would wax all philosophical about currency and 'value' and make these elaborate arguments about conceptual models and human illusions. The dude would make all the arguments using the same sort of logical progression. Of course everyone else was, including the prof was to dumb to understand his obvious superior thinking on the matter.
It was amusing at times though mostly it was annoying. The prof was quite adept at dealing with him though. I doubt it was the first time he taught someone like that.
| 858 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:33:07am |
re: #854 Stanley Sea
The magical balance fairy needs to take a Valium. She's been sooo busy these past 3 days.
Screw that. She needs a month in Tahiti surrounded by a bunch of hot surfer boys and a steady stream of drinks with those little umbrellas in them.
| 859 |
tradewind Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:33:35am |
re: #855 Walter L. Newton
Gather ye screenshots while ye may.//
| 860 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:33:42am |
re: #858 Lidane
Screw that. She needs a month in Tahiti surrounded by a bunch of hot surfer boys and a steady stream of drinks with those little umbrellas in them.
Projecting much?
| 861 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:33:44am |
re: #718 avanti
Fox News just now on Loughner:
" A left wing pot head that worshiped the devil."
Fox has spoken.
| 862 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:33:49am |
re: #820 SanFranciscoZionist
I'm going to ignore the incredible grotesqueness of this piece, and simply point out that Kwanzaa has been over for more than a week. If you're going to use it as a...God, I don't even know what to call that...you should at least know when it happens.
It's Kwanzaa in the Eastern Orthodox world.
| 863 |
Gus Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:34:25am |
re: #851 Lidane
Yeah. A classmate that hadn't seen or talked to him in years said that. Real reliable source there.
The "friend" indicated that this was in 2007 so it's entirely possible that Loughner came off as a "left wing pothead" several years ago. He was arrested for drug paraphernalia once.
| 864 |
tradewind Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:34:26am |
re: #861 SanFranciscoZionist
I believe you meant ' Fox reported '.
Don't think they sourced that from any of their employees, did they?
| 865 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:34:32am |
re: #856 tradewind
What makes that source unreliable is the fact that they hadn't seen or had any contact with them in years.
I haven't seen some of my high school classmates in 20 years. Would I be any kind of reliable source on who they are now? No. Neither is anyone who hasn't seen or talked to this kid in five years.
| 866 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:34:37am |
re: #855 Walter L. Newton
re: #846 Walter L. Newton
Rewind... I'm sorry... those statements are from KOS... my mistake...
//[Link: www.dailykos.com...]
Because we all know Kos panders to those far-left gun nuts.
| 867 |
tradewind Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:35:01am |
re: #863 Gus 802
And fried his brains via alcohol poisoning as a 'yute, too.
Probably not a lot usable there.
| 868 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:35:36am |
re: #733 albusteve
Despite having a sordid history of using vitriolic rhetoric, George Soros-funded advocacy group MoveOn has seized upon the tragic shooting of Ariz. Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords and other attendees of a public event in Tucson Saturday as a means to go after “overt and implied appeals to violence in our political debate.”
MoveOn steps up to the plate, in spite of their past, sordid record
Read more: [Link: dailycaller.com...]
Greeeeeaaaat.
| 869 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:35:43am |
re: #860 Walter L. Newton
Projecting much?
God, how I wish. Grad school starts again next week. A steady supply of drinks with umbrellas in them would be nice. Heh.
| 870 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:35:46am |
re: #863 Gus 802
See #661.
| 871 |
Gus Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:36:07am |
re: #867 tradewind
And fried his brains via alcohol poisoning as a 'yute, too.
Probably not a lot usable there.
Yes. I read something about him having drunk a "whole bottle" of Tequila and having to be treated for alcohol poisoning and "almost died".
| 872 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:36:23am |
re: #839 tradewind
Hell's bells. If people are going to place blame on references to ' crosshairs ' on a website, will POTUS get in trouble for his
' they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun ' speech?
It's all silly deflection from the real issue, which is identifying these sickos and getting them off the streets.
Just so you know, the 'crosshair' symbol referenced here and elsewhere alongside Sarah Palin diatribes is a commonly used symbol in the printing industry.
It's a printer's crop mark.
Don't have to believe me, search engines will return the same info, for instance...
I have personally seen official Democratic publications targeting races with vulnerable opponents and those pubs used actual bullseyes and targets.
Let's put an end to facile attempts to link that despicable nutjob in AZ to any political stance or affiliation.
| 873 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:36:42am |
re: #825 SanFranciscoZionist
I didn't know that until this happened. They were running wedding pictures with him in his whites.
Apparently his brother is also an astronaut, and is currently in orbit. Hell of a time.
He tweeted yesterday: [Link: twitter.com...]
| 874 |
tradewind Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:37:27am |
Out.
Praying that Giffords continues to improve and somehow recovers completely from her ordeal.
And that this frenzy of 24-7 media coverage will abate, because when it's over, we won't hear of it again.
Better to be a little more moderate now, and not let the victims be totally forgotten a few weeks from now.
| 875 |
MSBoxer Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:37:30am |
re: #856 tradewind
I hate to think how reliable a source he'd be considered had he branded the kid a religious nut./
Exactly, if a former classmate said he was a member of the Young Republicans then they would be all over it.
So she has not seen him in 3 years...she says they were good friends and knew him when he first started to have problems with Giffords. While these tweets do not prove anything on their own, when taken in conjunction with his online videos and his wish to legalize pot they do tend to point to left leaning views.
| 876 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:37:45am |
re: #866 Sergey Romanov
Because we all know Kos panders to those far-left gun nuts.
Now you're starting to catch on. Keep up with me. Up here, we have some wonderful far-left gun nuts... you make the same mistake a lot of people make... not everyone for gun ownership is from the right in our country... I can introduce you to some of my friends from the left who would scare the shit our of you when it comes to their love of their right to own firearms.
| 877 |
tradewind Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:38:27am |
re: #872 Capitalist Tool
I know that. You know that.
Won't convince anyone who wants to use it as their own weapon.
| 879 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:40:06am |
re: #876 Walter L. Newton
Now you're starting to catch on. Keep up with me. Up here, we have some wonderful far-left gun nuts... you make the same mistake a lot of people make... not everyone for gun ownership is from the right in our country... I can introduce you to some of my friends from the left who would scare the shit our of you when it comes to their love of their right to own firearms.
I might know than you think ;) Do you know about RKBA group at DKos? Some of them are leftie gun nuts. But we're talking statistics here.
| 880 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:40:18am |
re: #877 tradewind
I know that. You know that.
Won't convince anyone who wants to use it as their own weapon.
yeppers
| 881 |
tradewind Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:40:58am |
re: #878 Lidane
Well what are you waiting for?
Head for the Old North Church!//
And don't forget the lantern.
| 882 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:41:08am |
re: #876 Walter L. Newton
you make the same mistake a lot of people make... not everyone for gun ownership is from the right in our country... I can introduce you to some of my friends from the left who would scare the shit our of you when it comes to their love of their right to own firearms.
Seriously. I have plenty of left-wing and Democratic friends here in Austin who love their guns. The worst mistake anyone can make is to immediately assume that just because someone is a liberal, they're unarmed.
| 883 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:41:31am |
re: #875 MSBoxer
Exactly, if a former classmate said he was a member of the Young Republicans then they would be all over it.
So she has not seen him in 3 years...she says they were good friends and knew him when he first started to have problems with Giffords. While these tweets do not prove anything on their own, when taken in conjunction with his online videos and his wish to legalize pot they do tend to point to left leaning views.
So only people on the left want to smoke pot?
I would think the fact that its a powerful addictive drug (or so I keep getting told) means that pot use sort of crosses party lines.
Also what do you make of his argument that the US currency needs to be back by only gold or silver, something only RIGHT WING Liberterians ever talk about?
| 885 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:42:39am |
re: #756 iossarian
Everyone who reads site this knows that I am hardly unpartisan. But can you imagine what people would have made of it if Palin had used Obama's "if they bring a knife, we bring a gun" line?
I think this whole situation is a bit overblown. Do people need to stop voting Republican because the GOP is in the tank for a few mega-rich bastards who want to screw the rest of us for every dime we have? Yes. Does that put the Republicans on the hook for a crazyman who took the whole "politics as war" frame seriously? Not really.
I don't see the Republicans as being 'on the hook', but I do see the crazy rhetoric that has been tolerated by some Republicans as a bad and dangerous political development. I think we should dial it back.
| 886 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:42:40am |
| 887 |
KingKenrod Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:42:43am |
re: #834 Fozzie Bear
It's a nutty conspiracy theory site. It's not really all that scary, just extremely weird.
Thanks.
| 888 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:42:48am |
re: #879 Sergey Romanov
I might know than you think ;) Do you know about RKBA group at DKos? Some of them are leftie gun nuts. But we're talking statistics here.
(To rip a paraphrase from one of the lib sites) as a liberal in Alabama I don't intend to be the most lightly-armed person in my neighborhood.
| 889 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:42:53am |
re: #884 Varek Raith
Still spinning, I see.
Oh, they'll be spinning for a while. Anything to change the subject or deflect, as usual.
| 890 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:43:01am |
re: #882 Lidane
Seriously. I have plenty of left-wing and Democratic friends here in Austin who love their guns. The worst mistake anyone can make is to immediately assume that just because someone is a liberal, they're unarmed.
Yep.
| 891 |
jaunte Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:43:06am |
re: #883 jamesfirecat
I would think the fact that its a powerful addictive drug (or so I keep getting told) means that pot use sort of crosses party lines.
It does figure in Rand Paul's history.
| 892 |
eltito Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:43:07am |
re: #766 Jadespring
Yep to me the notion that someone who has a mental health problem cannot be influenced, motivated or even understand 'politics', political rhetoric or anything else remotely 'political' and thus is not a motivating factor at play is just a load of hooey. They might not 'understand' or see it or come to the same sorts of conclusions that someone without the problem has but the influencing factor can sure as heck be there.
I had an experience with a colleague when I was working in a politically oriented job. He had had mental problems in the past but was fine and then had a relapse. This guy was smart, educated, intelligent and intensely interested in politics (why he had the job). It happened slowly but eventually became quite obvious that something was wrong. In his case his solution and conclusions of what he had to do and work on were benign. He had through lot of work come to in his mind the 'reasoned' understanding that the solution to what was going on in the world today was a world wide campaign around ringing bells. So everything became about bells. He brought bells into work, he gave out bells, he saw bells all over the place and in meetings he connected everything with bells and peace. It was weird. He had worked out that the solution to what the government in Canada and the US were doing, the wars, terrorism everything was to have everyone in the world ring a bell at the exact same time. His 'ring a bell for peace' campaign.
He gave me a copy of his 'reasoning'. His journal. Quite an extraordinary thing that was. It made no sense and at the same time made perfect sense within it's own set of internalized logic. It was mostly all 'politics' and stuff to do with politics.
Anyways we got him help and although the 'peace bell' campaign solution was dropped his underlying politics and what drives him didn't change much. It was all still there just in more reasoned manner. Last I heard he's still working in that realm. His focus on bringing about solutions to conflict and justice by peaceful means.
Fair enough, but at what point is the line drawn? My point has always been that it's not reasonable to to expect a normal person to tailor their speech to account for the crazies, because there is no accounting for them.
Really, follow this to its logical conclusion. If you can't open your mouth without worrying about being held accountable for what a non-rational individual does with what you say, you may as well not bother getting out of bed in the morning.
| 893 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:44:11am |
re: #758 Walter L. Newton
But I don't see nothing wrong with President Obama's statement "if they bring a knife, we bring a gun"... that sentence would be taken as political rhetoric, maybe a bit hyperbolic, but no one but a madman would would take that to heart.
Well, it is a quote. One I personally like.
Does that mean I would advise him to say it again? Hell no. Not in this climate.
But there is a difference between that and some of what we've seen this last few years.
| 894 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:44:12am |
re: #886 Capitalist Tool
No shit. Stable people don't commit mass murder.
That doesn't mean that he didn't specifically target Giffords for his own political reasons. You can't divorce a member of Congress getting shot in the head at point blank range from the politics of the shooter. It's not possible.
| 895 |
wrenchwench Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:44:14am |
re: #872 Capitalist Tool
Just so you know, the 'crosshair' symbol referenced here and elsewhere alongside Sarah Palin diatribes is a commonly used symbol in the printing industry.
It's a printer's crop mark.
Don't have to believe me, search engines will return the same info, for instance...I have personally seen official Democratic publications targeting races with vulnerable opponents and those pubs used actual bullseyes and targets.
Let's put an end to facile attempts to link that despicable nutjob in AZ to any political stance or affiliation.
It's only a Celtic cross!!11!!!
/I think I've seen this movie....
| 896 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:44:26am |
re: #884 Varek Raith
Still spinning, I see.
Depends on who you are talking about and the direction of the spin... doesn't it?
| 897 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:44:31am |
re: #892 eltito
Fair enough, but at what point is the line drawn? My point has always been that it's not reasonable to to expect a normal person to tailor their speech to account for the crazies, because there is no accounting for them.
Really, follow this to its logical conclusion. If you can't open your mouth without worrying about being held accountable for what a non-rational individual does with what you say, you may as well not bother getting out of bed in the morning.
good job
| 898 |
Reginald Perrin Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:44:37am |
| 899 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:44:50am |
re: #882 Lidane
Seriously. I have plenty of left-wing and Democratic friends here in Austin who love their guns. The worst mistake anyone can make is to immediately assume that just because someone is a liberal, they're unarmed.
One simple question: who panders to the gun nuts and the associated culture, the left or the right?
| 900 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:45:33am |
re: #765 darthstar
Erick Erection, the other Brietbart who works at Redstate and CNN, shows his ignorance with this comment:
Well, that settles it.
Yes. Clearly an atmosphere of blind hate from right wing radicals sets off Karl Marx fans. Maybe we should look into this.
//
| 901 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:45:41am |
re: #892 eltito
Fair enough, but at what point is the line drawn? My point has always been that it's not reasonable to to expect a normal person to tailor their speech to account for the crazies, because there is no accounting for them.
Really, follow this to its logical conclusion. If you can't open your mouth without worrying about being held accountable for what a non-rational individual does with what you say, you may as well not bother getting out of bed in the morning.
How about if you can't say it about the president, you can't say about it an elected member of Congress either?
| 902 |
BongCrodny Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:45:51am |
re: #875 MSBoxer
Exactly, if a former classmate said he was a member of the Young Republicans then they would be all over it.
So she has not seen him in 3 years...she says they were good friends and knew him when he first started to have problems with Giffords. While these tweets do not prove anything on their own, when taken in conjunction with his online videos and his wish to legalize pot they do tend to point to left leaning views.
Considering we're hearing story after story about how the guy was a creep, I'd be a bit leery of the judgment of anyone who considered herself a "good friend."
| 903 |
Jadespring Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:45:56am |
re: #829 Sergey Romanov
It's him alright.
[Link: www.abovetopsecret.com...]
Well this is a little more compelling that it is him. I'll grant you.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I've come across people both online and off who would write and think that way. His 'style' is out there but not unheard of. Perhaps in his case pushed by a mental health issue but yeah, I've seen and heard stuff like his before. It's uncommon and rare but not just a one off sort of thing.
| 904 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:46:02am |
re: #899 Sergey Romanov
One simple question: who panders to the gun nuts and the associated culture, the left or the right?
define gun nut
| 905 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:46:23am |
re: #888 Decatur Deb
(To rip a paraphrase from one of the lib sites) as a liberal in Alabama I don't intend to be the most lightly-armed person in my neighborhood.
Not every gun owner is a gun nut. Only those who make a cult.
| 906 |
Reginald Perrin Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:46:31am |
re: #886 Capitalist Tool
That guy was/is a nut.
That is all.
He was a nut who may have been influenced by violent rhetoric and revolution.
| 907 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:47:43am |
| 908 |
Kronocide Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:47:50am |
I guess the spin is still in.
We have people saying 'well they do it too' missing the point that nobody should do it.
We have people saying 'don't jump to conclusions' but yet jumping to conclusions.
Not matter what the outcome the charged rhetoric from any source has to stop or the likelyhood increases of more shootings.
| 910 |
Gus Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:48:07am |
That "Voter View" of his showing him as a registered Republican is a Photoshop.
| 911 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:48:09am |
re: #899 Sergey Romanov
One simple question: who panders to the gun nuts and the associated culture, the left or the right?
One simple answer. The right. And I'm not relying on any statistics or on a persons political persuasion if he he standing there holding a gun and drooling... I don't give two shits if he's interested in the gold standard. I'm not even going to take the time to question him if he watches Palins TV show.
| 912 |
avanti Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:48:38am |
re: #904 Capitalist Tool
define gun nut
For me, the guys that stockpile lots of guns and ammo to protect themselves from the black helicopters or the coming collapse of the union..
| 913 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:48:43am |
re: #812 Stanley Sea
The victim circle is complete. We knew this would happen.
Glenn thinks that an attempt on Sarah Palin's life would 'bring the Republic down'?
God forbid any such thing should happen, but we've survived a number of presidential assassinations, and even more attempts, without collapse.
| 914 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:48:48am |
re: #899 Sergey Romanov
One simple question: who panders to the gun nuts and the associated culture, the left or the right?
That depends on how you define gun nuts and their culture.
Yeah, the NRA and groups like them pander to the right wing nutbars who fetishize guns, but there are plenty of folks on the left who love to go to the shooting range, or go hunting, and they have their own arsenals, especially here in Texas.
| 915 |
Sheila Broflovski Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:48:50am |
re: #722 Walter L. Newton
Can you clip/paste the code here... or send me an email, or is it spaghetti'ed all over the place, too fragmented for me to follow the flow?
3000 lines of code, not including what's in all the "#include" files.
I couldn't paste excerpts anyway because of corporate confidentiality.
| 916 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:49:00am |
re: #910 Gus 802
That "Voter View" of his showing him as a registered Republican is a Photoshop.
Sssshhhhh...
| 917 |
jaunte Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:49:07am |
re: #908 BigPapa
I guess the spin is still in.
We have people saying 'well they do it too' missing the point that nobody should do it.
We have people saying 'don't jump to conclusions' but yet jumping to conclusions.
Not matter what the outcome the charged rhetoric from any source has to stop or the likelyhood increases of more shootings.
I don't remember this much pushback against that idea when people were discussing the rhetoric of radical imams on clips from MEMRI.
| 918 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:49:07am |
| 919 |
eltito Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:49:10am |
re: #792 Walter L. Newton
One of the most touristy things to do in Paris, is something I do recommend, especially if you are there for the first time. The Bateaux-Mouches. the sightseeing barges on the Seine.
Three hundred or so tourists at a time, a bored guide giving you a narrative in three languages, attendants selling soft drinks and candy at inflated prices... but there is nothing more beautiful then seeing Paris from the river on a boat... especially at night.
+1
My wife and I did this on our honeymoon. A dinner cruise. No tourist guide, just a piano player and a violinist and a very, very memorable evening.
| 920 |
Varek Raith Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:49:45am |
Either violent rhetoric matters, or it doesn't.
If it doesn't, than please apply that to Islamic terrorists. Because, you know, they're just crazy. Only a nut blows himself up. It's not the fault of those who say violent things. Nope, no sirree.
Logic thrown back at ya!
| 921 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:49:51am |
| 922 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:50:10am |
re: #915 Alouette
3000 lines of code, not including what's in all the "#include" files.
I couldn't paste excerpts anyway because of corporate confidentiality.
Understood... then I can't help you without being able to see something, if not everything.
| 923 |
Kronocide Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:50:14am |
re: #917 jaunte
I don't remember this much pushback against that idea when people were discussing the rhetoric of radical imams on clips from MEMRI.
Neither do I. But we didn't have Magical Balance Fairy on payroll then either.
| 924 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:50:23am |
re: #920 Varek Raith
Either violent rhetoric matters, or it doesn't.
If it doesn't, than please apply that to Islamic terrorists. Because, you know, they're just crazy. Only a nut blows himself up. It's not the fault of those who say violent things. Nope, no sirree.
Logic thrown back at ya!
See, now you're just bringing facts and logic into the spin machine. Tsk tsk. ;)
| 925 |
Gus Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:50:32am |
As a skeptic, I'm going to await further information which will no doubt be revealed during his trial. At this time I would only be engaging in pure speculation and delving into conspiracy theories if I am going to assume that I have a complete picture of Loughner. This over politicalization of Loughner fails to recognize the behavioral component of the perpetrator.
| 926 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:50:33am |
re: #892 eltito
Fair enough, but at what point is the line drawn? My point has always been that it's not reasonable to to expect a normal person to tailor their speech to account for the crazies, because there is no accounting for them.
Really, follow this to its logical conclusion. If you can't open your mouth without worrying about being held accountable for what a non-rational individual does with what you say, you may as well not bother getting out of bed in the morning.
I'd say stuff like this is over the line:
I want people in Minnesota armed and dangerous on this issue of the energy tax because we need to fight back. Thomas Jefferson told us 'having a revolution every now and then is a good thing,' and the people -- we the people -- are going to have to fight back hard if we're not going to lose our country."
~Michele Backmann"I hope that's not where we're going, but you know if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies and saying my goodness what can we do to turn this country around? I'll tell you the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out."
~Sharon Angle''Our nation was founded on violence. The option is on the table. I don't think that we should ever remove anything from the table as it relates to our liberties and our freedoms.''
—Tea Party-backed Texas GOP congressional candidate Stephen Broden''I'm thinking about killing Michael Moore, and I'm wondering if I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it. ... No, I think I could. I think he could be looking me in the eye, you know, and I could just be choking the life out.''
—Glenn Beck, May 17, 2005"The exact phrase ’separation of Church and State’ came out of Adolph Hitler’s mouth, that’s where it comes from. So the next time your liberal friends talk about the separation of Church and State, ask them why they’re Nazis."
~Glen Urquhart [Delaware republican candidate endorsed by Mike Huckabee but lost in November 2010]''We're talking about a militant terrorist situation, which I believe it isn't a widespread thing, but it is enough that we need to address, and we have been addressing it. My thoughts are these, first of all, Dearborn, Michigan, and Frankford, Texas are on American soil, and under constitutional law. Not Sharia law. And I don't know how that happened in the United States. It seems to me there is something fundamentally wrong with allowing a foreign system of law to even take hold in any municipality or government situation in our United States.''
—Nevada GOP Senate candidate Sharron Angle (Talking about sharia law, which as we all know is just about to take over the country)''Obama's got a health care logo that's right out of Adolf Hitler's playbook ... Adolf Hitler, like Barack Obama, also ruled by dictate.''
—Rush Limbaugh, Aug. 6, 2009''The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel.'''
—Sarah Palin''I believe we have more to fear from the potential of that bill passing than we do from any terrorist right now in any country.''
—Rep. Virginia Foxx'''He has no place in any station of government and we need to realize that he is an enemy of humanity.''
—Rep. Trent Franks (R-AZ), on President Obama's decision to fund international family planning organizations that support legal abortion, Sept. 26, 2009
There's plenty more here.
| 927 |
eltito Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:50:48am |
re: #901 jamesfirecat
How about if you can't say it about the president, you can't say about it an elected member of Congress either?
Seems reasonable.
I'm not sure I've seen rhetoric that fits the bill, but maybe that just means I'm not paying close enough attention.
| 928 |
Reginald Perrin Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:50:56am |
re: #904 Capitalist Tool
define gun nut
People whose blogs have gun threads and talk of a second American Revolution.
| 929 |
kirkspencer Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:51:15am |
re: #872 Capitalist Tool
Just so you know, the 'crosshair' symbol referenced here and elsewhere alongside Sarah Palin diatribes is a commonly used symbol in the printing industry.
It's a printer's crop mark.
Don't have to believe me, search engines will return the same info, for instance...[snip]
There is one teensy little problem with your contention about them being crop marks. It's the same problem that exists with the post-facto claim they're survey marks. That is the fact that Palin's site called them sights after the election.
| 930 |
Gus Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:51:39am |
re: #916 Walter L. Newton
Sssshhh...
The first one they put out had Tucson spelled as "Tuscon" and then they changed it back to "Tucson".
| 931 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:52:34am |
re: #930 Gus 802
The first one they put out had Tucson spelled as "Tuscon" and then they changed it back to "Tucson".
I know... I read about it early this morning. I figured it would get lost in all the noise anyway... maybe shout louder.
| 932 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:52:38am |
re: #929 kirkspencer
There is one teensy little problem with your contention about them being crop marks. It's the same problem that exists with the post-facto claim they're survey marks. That is the fact that Palin's site called them sights after the election.
Sarah called them bullseyes.
Fucking bullshit, surveyor marks? Printers marks?
"Don't retreat, reload!"
These people are so full of shit.
| 933 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:52:56am |
This is predictable: Glenn Beck's Dogwhistle Response to Loughner
| 934 |
Gus Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:53:20am |
re: #920 Varek Raith
Either violent rhetoric matters, or it doesn't.
If it doesn't, than please apply that to Islamic terrorists. Because, you know, they're just crazy. Only a nut blows himself up. It's not the fault of those who say violent things. Nope, no sirree.
Logic thrown back at ya!
Fine. I have accepted the overt rhetoric of the previous two years. But keep this in mind. That same logic has also been used with "violent lyrics".
| 935 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:53:57am |
re: #614 Decatur Deb
Dunno. We can assume he wasn't swayed by the 5th Commandment.
Though I understand he's invoked the 5th Amendment...
| 936 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:54:19am |
| 937 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:54:47am |
re: #912 avanti
For me, the guys that stockpile lots of guns and ammo to protect themselves from the black helicopters or the coming collapse of the union..
If a person thinks that Obama is going to take away the guns, (s)he's a gun nut. If a person thinks that gun should be obtained with just an ID, or even without it - without any psychological tests and background checks etc. - (s)he's a gun nut. I've seen plenty online and I also know many began to buy guns when Obama was elected.
| 938 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:54:49am |
still ticky tacking, trying to define this guy?....has every little shred been poured over?....and over?
and over
| 939 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:54:53am |
re: #934 Gus 802
Fine. I have accepted the overt rhetoric of the previous two years. But keep this in mind. That same logic has also been used with "violent lyrics".
Violent lyrics suggesting violence against specific people would be equivalent. It's not the same thing when politicians say it as when some thrash metal band says it. Context is everything.
| 940 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:55:24am |
re: #921 SanFranciscoZionist
Missed your question re elephant/girl last night. She's 8, in second grade in a rural Alabama school. By luck, the union thugs teaching her are spectacular.
(The elephant in question was in a Disney movie she grew bored with. She's not politically snarky--yet.)
| 941 |
eltito Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:55:26am |
re: #932 Stanley Sea
Sarah called them bullseyes.
Fucking bullshit, surveyor marks? Printers marks?
"Don't retreat, reload!"
These people are so full of shit.
Both are clearly metaphorical in meaning (to any righ-thinking person), so I'm not sure what your point is.
| 942 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:55:34am |
| 943 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:56:05am |
re: #938 albusteve
still ticky tacking, trying to define this guy?...has every little shred been poured over?...and over?
and over
There are new tidbits coming out but it's getting more difficult to sort through.
| 944 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:56:09am |
re: #942 Obdicut
Whoops, sorry, Fozzie, you snuck in there. Post was for Gus.
| 945 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:56:22am |
gun nut....but I've lost some weight
[Link: www.greatbeyond.com...]
satisfied?
| 946 |
Jadespring Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:56:52am |
Well I could totally believe that at one point his views were more 'standard' left wing (The tweets from people that alledgelly knew him). I could totally believe that now they are more right wing and in this case libertarian right wing as evidence suggests. Why, because I've known 'lefties' to get sucked into that worldview. Watched it happen to a friend of mine (no longer a friend). He got sucked right into nutty conspiracy world too. For some reason they seem to go together with a lot of people.
I've known people who use that fact that people come to this type political worldview, gold standard stuff in particular from both right and left as actual proof that it must be true and the right way of seeing things because hey if a previous leftie can see it and a mainstream rightie can see it then there MUST be something to it.
| 947 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:57:12am |
| 948 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:58:40am |
re: #943 Killgore Trout
There are new tidbits coming out but it's getting more difficult to sort through.
down to the minutiae now....the thing is spent
| 949 |
Reginald Perrin Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:59:31am |
re: #932 Stanley Sea
Sarah called them bullseyes.
Fucking bullshit, surveyor marks? Printers marks?
"Don't retreat, reload!"
These people are so full of shit.
They can spin it all they want, it isn't going to matter. Sara isn't the only one that was doing it, this something that was widespread and condoned by the GOP.
Words have consequences, they were warned. If they keep spinning and go back to business as usual, how are they going to be able to spin the next horrific event?
Now is the time for the GOP to do a soul searching and turn off the violent rhetoric.
| 950 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:00:30am |
re: #929 kirkspencer
There is one teensy little problem with your contention about them being crop marks. It's the same problem that exists with the post-facto claim they're survey marks. That is the fact that Palin's site called them sights after the election.
you missed my point
The point being, there's plenty of evidence out there to indict either party for just about anything at any time, if one cares to look.
Those interested in the truth of things do not try to ascribe the actions of a nut to the 'other side'.
| 951 |
Varek Raith Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:00:34am |
You know what's amusingly sad and obvious?
We wouldn't be having this discussion over violent, political rhetoric is this guy were Muslim.
We simply wouldn't.
| 952 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:00:34am |
re: #949 Reginald Perrin
They can spin it all they want, it isn't going to matter. Sara isn't the only one that was doing it, this something that was widespread and condoned by the GOP.
Words have consequences, they were warned. If they keep spinning and go back to business as usual, how are they going to be able to spin the next horrific event?
Now is the time for the GOP to do a soul searching and turn off the violent rhetoric.
I doubt they will.
| 954 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:02:20am |
re: #951 Varek Raith
You know what's amusingly sad and obvious?
We wouldn't be having this discussion over violent, political rhetoric is this guy were Muslim.
We simply wouldn't.
Was Nidal Malik Hasan motivated in part by extremist Muslim rhetoric?
Yes.
| 955 |
jaunte Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:02:23am |
re: #932 Stanley Sea
Sarah called them bullseyes.
Fucking bullshit, surveyor marks? Printers marks?
"Don't retreat, reload!"
These people are so full of shit.
If the apologists knew anything about printing they would be calling them register marks, because they aren't cropmarks. But that wouldn't make any sense either.
| 956 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:02:35am |
re: #941 eltito
Both are clearly metaphorical in meaning (to any righ-thinking person), so I'm not sure what your point is.
The idea is not to egg on the crazy pants people... she could have easily expressed the same message without using such violent terminology....
| 957 |
Kronocide Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:03:03am |
Breaking: Glenn Beck accepts responsibility for charged rhetoric.
| 958 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:03:14am |
re: #949 Reginald Perrin
They can spin it all they want, it isn't going to matter. Sara isn't the only one that was doing it, this something that was widespread and condoned by the GOP.
Words have consequences, they were warned. If they keep spinning and go back to business as usual, how are they going to be able to spin the next horrific event?
Now is the time for the GOP to do a soul searching and turn off the violent rhetoric.
Still don't get it?
Widespread by the GOP? It was documented as having been done by the Democratic Party for years.
Where were all these finger pointers when the Dems used TARGETS..
I don't give a damn one way or the other.
One- sided agenda driven political speech leaves me cold.
| 959 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:03:14am |
re: #953 Gus 802
I'm sure you will agree that there is more to this than the rhetoric. Our society is already violently pre-cocked. We glorify violence in music, movies, and literature.
Who is saying there isn't any more to it than the rhetoric? It's precisely because our society is already violently 'pre-cocked' (nice turn of phrase) that violent rhetoric from people who are supposed to be the safeguards of civic order is so dangerous.
| 961 |
Jeff In Ohio Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:03:44am |
re: #955 jaunte
If the apologists knew anything about printing they would be calling them register marks, because they aren't cropmarks. But that wouldn't make any sense either.
They want to register their outrage. Don't release, reink!
| 962 |
Varek Raith Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:04:00am |
re: #954 Obdicut
Was Nidal Malik Hasan motivated in part by extremist Muslim rhetoric?
Yes.
I know.
But!
Were the ones deflecting away from the right's use of violent rhetoric saying we should just ignore it?
That's my point. Many on the right see nothing wrong with this kind of rhetoric.
Unless it's used by a terrorist.
| 963 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:04:40am |
re: #958 Capitalist Tool
Still don't get it?
Widespread by the GOP? It was documented as having been done by the Democratic Party for years.
Where were all these finger pointers when the Dems used TARGETS..
I don't give a damn one way or the other.
One- sided agenda driven political speech leaves me cold.
I saw KOS use targets, but KOS is not a respected branch of the Democratic party. I also saw the Dem's pointing out STATES not PEOPLE context matters!
| 964 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:05:11am |
re: #949 Reginald Perrin
They can spin it all they want, it isn't going to matter. Sara isn't the only one that was doing it, this something that was widespread and condoned by the GOP.
Words have consequences, they were warned. If they keep spinning and go back to business as usual, how are they going to be able to spin the next horrific event?
Now is the time for the GOP to do a soul searching and turn off the violent rhetoric.
Sarah certainly isn't the only one doing it, but her PAC sponsors some of the most extreme elements of the lunatic fringe. For instance, she endorsed Stephen Broden in Texas, who said this: ''Our nation was founded on violence. The option is on the table. I don't think that we should ever remove anything from the table as it relates to our liberties and our freedoms.''
This guy has also appeared on Glenn Beck and has repeatedly been on Fox News as a "political commentator". Lets not pretend for a second that Palin isn't neck-deep in the fever swamp, because she is.
| 965 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:05:54am |
re: #958 Capitalist Tool
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
| 966 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:06:13am |
re: #962 Varek Raith
Yes, that's my point as well. It's a lethal Overton window. I think we're lucky that more assaults on Muslims and mosques didn't occur during the Park51 brouhaha. I think we're lucky we haven't had more people using violence against government employees, given the stupid anti-census bullshit.
I don't want us to have to keep on being lucky.
| 967 |
lawhawk Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:06:49am |
Loughner is not cooperating with the sheriff's office, but he will be making a court appearance on the first charges (the federal assassination/attempted assassination/murder/attempted murder of federal officials) this afternoon.
Loughner will be represented by Judy Clarke, who is no stranger to high profile cases:
Loughner will be represented in court by Judy Clarke, the lawyer who helped defend Unabomber Ted Kaczynski, the federal defenders' office said."Our understanding is that Judy Clarke is who is assigned to the case and she has accepted," Manny Tarango, a spokesman for the U.S. Attorney in Phoenix, said.
Clarke, a former federal public defender in San Diego and Spokane, Wash., also served on teams that defended Oklahoma City bombing conspirator Timothy McVeigh and Susan Smith, a South Carolina woman who drowned her two sons in 1994.
Clarke is a good choice to deal with a case such as this - has handled high profile cases before including dealing with defendants who may have mental health issues.
| 968 |
Varek Raith Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:06:59am |
re: #966 Obdicut
Yes, that's my point as well. It's a lethal Overton window. I think we're lucky that more assaults on Muslims and mosques didn't occur during the Park51 brouhaha. I think we're lucky we haven't had more people using violence against government employees, given the stupid anti-census bullshit.
I don't want us to have to keep on being lucky.
Oh, sorry.
I completely misread the intent of your post.
| 969 |
Kronocide Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:07:04am |
re: #950 Capitalist Tool
you missed my point
The point being, there's plenty of evidence out there to indict either party for just about anything at any time, if one cares to look.
Those interested in the truth of things do not try to ascribe the actions of a nut to the 'other side'.
You don't get the point: it doesn't matter what side this nut got hopped up by, the charged rhetoric has reached an unprecedented level, and specifically, the mass of the charged rhetoric comes from the tea partiers and right wing.
But go ahead and say 'they both do it' or 'he's just crazy' or any other iteration of bland equivalence I keep seeing.
| 970 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:07:18am |
re: #963 jamesfirecat
I saw KOS use targets, but KOS is not a respected branch of the Democratic party. I also saw the Dem's pointing out STATES not PEOPLE context matters!
Kos is respected akshully. A lot of mainstream elected pols post or posted there. And if someone at Dkos uses targets (not crosshairs) it's pretty safe to say no ambiguity is involved.
| 971 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:07:22am |
re: #958 Capitalist Tool
Still don't get it?
Widespread by the GOP? It was documented as having been done by the Democratic Party for years.
Where were all these finger pointers when the Dems used TARGETS..
I don't give a damn one way or the other.
One- sided agenda driven political speech leaves me cold.
Find me a statement from within the past several years, made by a prominent figure on the left who wields either significant influence or actual political power, even remotely comparable to the explicit calls for violence I posted above in #926.
You are drawing a false equivalence.
| 972 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:08:46am |
re: #963 jamesfirecat
I saw KOS use targets, but KOS is not a respected branch of the Democratic party. I also saw the Dem's pointing out STATES not PEOPLE context matters!
Don't assume it doesn't happen... not on the same frequency as the GOP, or right wing citizens, but it does happen... try not making blanket definitive statement... there are usually execptions to everything... read...
"Who to primary? Well, I'd argue that we can narrow the target list by looking at those Democrats who sold out the Constitution last week. I've bolded members of the Blue Dogs for added emphasis."Ackerman, Gary (NY-05)
Altmire, Jason (PA-04)
Arcuri, Mike (NY-24)
Baca, Joe (CA-43)
Baird, Brian (WA-03)
Barrow, John (GA-12)
Bean, Melissa (IL-08)[snip]
Not all of these people will get or even deserve primaries, but this vote certainly puts a bulls eye on their district.
[Link: www.dailykos.com...]
Just a thought.
I think everyone should stop it. Start with the GOP if you want, I don't care where it starts, the idea is... it should STOP.
| 973 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:08:55am |
re: #951 Varek Raith
You know what's amusingly sad and obvious?
We wouldn't be having this discussion over violent, political rhetoric is this guy were Muslim.
We simply wouldn't.
Yep. If this guy was a Muslim, none of this debate would be happening. He'd just be a terrorist or an Al Qaeda sympathizer.
If he was Mexican, he'd be dismissed as an illegal immigrant or as an agent for the cartels.
But he's a white kid who shot a member of Congress. Clearly, he's just crazy. There's nothing political about his actions at all.
| 974 |
Jadespring Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:09:46am |
re: #941 eltito
Both are clearly metaphorical in meaning (to any righ-thinking person), so I'm not sure what your point is.
If you want an illustration of just how widespread the differences are in how people conceptualize and understand metaphor and literal meaning take a jaunt into the world of theology and arguing over scriptural 'meaning'. While it might be comforting to think that there is a common and obvious way for people to recognize and conceptualize what's metaphor and what's not metaphor it's not so cut and dry.
It's much more complex then just assuming, well right thinking people will understand it this way and any one else just doesn't think right.
| 975 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:10:00am |
re: #970 Sergey Romanov
Kos is respected akshully. A lot of mainstream elected pols post or posted there. And if someone at Dkos uses targets (not crosshairs) it's pretty safe to say no ambiguity is involved.
It should be noted Kos never posted the bullseyes in question. It was a diary on Kos, much like one of the pages here.
| 976 |
eltito Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:10:16am |
re: #956 jamesfirecat
The idea is not to egg on the crazy pants people... she could have easily expressed the same message without using such violent terminology...
How is anybody supposed to know what is going to "egg on the crazy pants people"? The most innocent, non-inflammatory sentiment could conceivably set off some nut job somewhere.
As I said, if we're going to require that the crazies always be taken into consideration, there's no use getting out of bed in the morning.
| 977 |
Reginald Perrin Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:11:08am |
re: #964 Fozzie Bear
I agree with you, her PAC was one of the most egregious example of what is a very common political strategy.
That is why defending Sara is pointless, it was down by countless others too.
The GOP own this until they stop the talk of violence and revolution.
| 978 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:11:17am |
re: #972 Walter L. Newton
Don't assume it doesn't happen... not on the same frequency as the GOP, or right wing citizens, but it does happen... try not making blanket definitive statement... there are usually execptions to everything... read...
Just a thought.
I think everyone should stop it. Start with the GOP if you want, I don't care where it starts, the idea is... it should STOP.
I'll agree with you it should stop on both sides...
| 979 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:11:30am |
re: #976 eltito
How is anybody supposed to know what is going to "egg on the crazy pants people"? The most innocent, non-inflammatory sentiment could conceivably set off some nut job somewhere.
As I said, if we're going to require that the crazies always be taken into consideration, there's no use getting out of bed in the morning.
How about calling for violent revolution? Gee, who could have possibly thought that calls for violent revolution could lead people to violence? It's a big mystery, I tell you. /
| 980 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:12:18am |
re: #976 eltito
How is anybody supposed to know what is going to "egg on the crazy pants people"? The most innocent, non-inflammatory sentiment could conceivably set off some nut job somewhere.
As I said, if we're going to require that the crazies always be taken into consideration, there's no use getting out of bed in the morning.
Here's an idea.
No more using gun metephores regarding political campaigns/opponents.
Is that too much to ask?
| 981 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:12:56am |
re: #979 Fozzie Bear
How about calling for violent revolution? Gee, who could have possibly thought that calls for violent revolution could lead people to violence? It's a big mystery, I tell you. /
Who could have ever predicted that calls for armed revolution, Second Amendment remedies, refreshing the tree of liberty, and being armed and dangerous would have any sort of effect? I mean, it's not like words have any consequences or anything.
| 982 |
Kronocide Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:13:02am |
re: #979 Fozzie Bear
How about calling for violent revolution? Gee, who could have possibly thought that calls for violent revolution could lead people to violence? It's a big mystery, I tell you. /
Damn, anything we say may cause violent revolution. Even 'can't we all get along' may cause many deaths. No use getting out of bed in the morning.
| 983 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:13:38am |
re: #982 BigPapa
Damn, anything we say may cause violent revolution. Even 'can't we all get along' may cause many deaths. No use getting out of bed in the morning.
I'm starting to like this direction more and more.
| 984 |
What, me worry? Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:13:54am |
re: #967 lawhawk
If he's found to be clinically insane, he shouldn't be put to death. He should be forever removed from society, but not killed. Since there is no question of guilt, the only thing left is "sane" or "insane" and either way, he's in Arizona which pretty much points to only one kind of sentence.
| 985 |
tigger2005 Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:14:24am |
The right wing enewsletters, GOPUSAEagle and Newsmax (and I'm sure Special Guests, Inc. is next) are furiously pushing this "he was a lefty" meme, not to mention the "pathetic left-wing attacks" and "Sarah Palin is the real victim" memes.
By the time the investigation is complete, if it's demonstrated that this guy leaned way more right than left, it won't make any difference. It'll be because the Obama Administration used threats and bribes to influence the outcome of the investigation, that's all.
| 986 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:14:37am |
re: #967 lawhawk
Loughner is not cooperating with the sheriff's office, but he will be making a court appearance on the first charges (the federal assassination/attempted assassination/murder/attempted murder of federal officials) this afternoon.
Loughner will be represented by Judy Clarke, who is no stranger to high profile cases:
Clarke is a good choice to deal with a case such as this - has handled high profile cases before including dealing with defendants who may have mental health issues.
Is she prejudiced against people with easy-to-spell names (Kaczynski, Moussaoui)? Those might not be good referrals.
| 987 |
What, me worry? Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:15:33am |
re: #985 tigger2005
The right wing enewsletters, GOPUSAEagle and Newsmax (and I'm sure Special Guests, Inc. is next) are furiously pushing this "he was a lefty" meme, not to mention the "pathetic left-wing attacks" and "Sarah Palin is the real victim" memes.
By the time the investigation is complete, if it's demonstrated that this guy leaned way more right than left, it won't make any difference. It'll be because the Obama Administration used threats and bribes to influence the outcome of the investigation, that's all.
I got a feeling if he had GOP buttons, posters and he was a registered Republican, they'd still say he was a lefty.
| 988 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:15:43am |
re: #971 Fozzie Bear
Find me a statement from within the past several years, made by a prominent figure on the left who wields either significant influence or actual political power, even remotely comparable to the explicit calls for violence I posted above in #926.
You are drawing a false equivalence.
I hardly think so.
Plays and art shows and hangings in effigy and documentaries depicting the assassination of GWB...
It's ALL a bunch of shite to me, yet there are plenty here and elsewhere who keep saying 'oh, it ain't us, it's them' and 'they're worse than we are' etc.
| 990 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:17:21am |
| 991 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:18:27am |
The wingnuts are crowing about this update: Official: DHS has not determined any possible ties between Arizona shooter and right wing group
For the last 24 hours, the Web has been alive with speculation that the Arizona shooter has some sort of ties to a right-wing group called American Renaissance. The primary source for this claim is a Fox News report from yesterday saying that law enforcement had made this determination based on information provided by the Department of Homeland Security.But a DHS official tells me that the department has not established any such possibility, undercutting what appears to be the primary basis for this claim.
The original memo said they were looking into it. Just because they aren't publicly announcing success 24 hours hours later doesn't make the original memo invalid. They are still looking into it, nothing has changed.
| 992 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:18:38am |
re: #984 marjoriemoon
Being declared legally insane isn't an easy task. Even Jeffrey Dahmer was declared sane in his trial.
| 993 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:19:06am |
re: #988 Capitalist Tool
I hardly think so.
Plays and art shows and hangings in effigy and documentaries depicting the assassination of GWB...It's ALL a bunch of shite to me, yet there are plenty here and elsewhere who keep saying 'oh, it ain't us, it's them' and 'they're worse than we are' etc.
Wasn't the documentary/movie British?
Also the issue here is not which side does it more, it's which sides people in positions of power reinforce and support these crazy statements, do you know of any elected democrats who cheered on the stuff that was done to GWB through these mediums?
| 994 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:19:14am |
Remember all those GOP Congressmember offices vandalized w broken windows during the 8 years if Bush? Me neither.
[Link: mediamatters.org...]
| 995 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:19:14am |
re: #989 Gus 802
right on the mark...I become numb to the never ending sameness of the argument....if people disagree then leave it at that
| 996 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:20:06am |
re: #993 jamesfirecat
i see what you are getting at...
| 997 |
Gus Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:20:19am |
re: #991 Killgore Trout
The wingnuts are crowing about this update: Official: DHS has not determined any possible ties between Arizona shooter and right wing group
The original memo said they were looking into it. Just because they aren't publicly announcing success 24 hours hours later doesn't make the original memo invalid. They are still looking into it, nothing has changed.
Then I have a question. Do we make note of the new DHS memo or do we focus on the wingnut reaction?
| 998 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:20:21am |
re: #988 Capitalist Tool
I hardly think so.
Plays and art shows and hangings in effigy and documentaries depicting the assassination of GWB...It's ALL a bunch of shite to me, yet there are plenty here and elsewhere who keep saying 'oh, it ain't us, it's them' and 'they're worse than we are' etc.
Nobody is saying that there are no examples of left-wing extremism gone too far.
What people ARE saying is that right now, the right has a large, angry, and extremely dangerous element, and that prominent figures, including sitting congresspeople, are making explicit and implicit calls for violence against political opponents. RIGHT NOW, none of those people are democrats.
I suppose this is where I remind you that Bush is not currently president, and that nobody shot him in the head.
So, several people get killed, and all you can say is "but they do it too?" WTF?
| 999 |
elizajane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:20:45am |
re: #985 tigger2005
The right wing enewsletters, GOPUSAEagle and Newsmax (and I'm sure Special Guests, Inc. is next) are furiously pushing this "he was a lefty" meme, not to mention the "pathetic left-wing attacks" and "Sarah Palin is the real victim" memes.
By the time the investigation is complete, if it's demonstrated that this guy leaned way more right than left, it won't make any difference. It'll be because the Obama Administration used threats and bribes to influence the outcome of the investigation, that's all.
There are people who are never going to be convinced that they were in the wrong. Fortunately, I think that the general public is convinced that those people were in the wrong. The general public can spot a lame excuse, and that's what they're being offered from the far right at the moment.
If Palin--or anybody on the right--had seized this moment to take responsibility, come out against hate speech, and sound like an adult, they could have won some points. But nobody has been capable of that except perhaps David Frum.
| 1000 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:20:53am |
re: #994 Stanley Sea
Remember all those GOP Congressmember offices vandalized w broken windows during the 8 years if Bush? Me neither.
[Link: mediamatters.org...]
yes, we know that...for quite some time now
| 1001 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:21:47am |
re: #996 Capitalist Tool
i see what you are getting at...
Then why don't you share it with the rest of us just to make sure we're on the same page, and do you with my statement?
| 1002 |
What, me worry? Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:22:13am |
re: #992 Lidane
Being declared legally insane isn't an easy task. Even Jeffrey Dahmer was declared sane in his trial.
I know. But did Dahmer have any history of insanity? It appears this guy does. Although I don't know if that's taken into consideration. We also don't know if he was ever diagnosed with mental health issues, on medication, etc. which I think would matter.
| 1003 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:22:18am |
re: #998 Fozzie Bear
So, several people get killed, and all you can say is "but they do it too?" WTF?
It's the only defense mechanism some people have.
| 1004 |
Kronocide Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:22:19am |
re: #988 Capitalist Tool
I hardly think so.
Plays and art shows and hangings in effigy and documentaries depicting the assassination of GWB...
Are you comparing the noted left wing violent rhetoric with the right wing violent rhetoric of the last two years in any sense of scale and intensity, concluding that they are equal?
| 1005 |
mr.fusion Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:22:31am |
re: #988 Capitalist Tool
I hardly think so.
Plays and art shows and hangings in effigy and documentaries depicting the assassination of GWB...
I'm sorry, but that is nowhere NEAR the equivalent of a member of Congress calling the President more dangerous than Al Qada, than the de facto Tea Party leader placing crosshairs over her political enemies, or the minority leader referring to a piece of legislation as armageddon.
| 1006 |
Reginald Perrin Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:23:30am |
| 1007 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:23:53am |
re: #1002 marjoriemoon
The legal definition of insanity for purposes of the plea is very, very, very different than the medical definition.
| 1008 |
Jadespring Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:24:21am |
re: #993 jamesfirecat
Wasn't the documentary/movie British?
Oh hey that reminds me. SFZ you still around?
Way back when we were talking about this movie and I said I had it taped but hadn't bothered to watch it.
I'd said I'd let you know about if I ever did.
Well I did end up watching it when I got the flu for two weeks in Nov.
| 1009 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:24:39am |
re: #997 Gus 802
Then I have a question. Do we make note of the new DHS memo or do we focus on the wingnut reaction?
We can do both. The content of the original memo still stands, the DHS, for whatever reason, is looking into possible links to American Renaissance. The wingnut claim of vindication since 24 hours later the feds aren't announcing proof of a link is bogus. They're still looking into it.
| 1010 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:25:06am |
re: #1007 Obdicut
The legal definition of insanity for purposes of the plea is very, very, very different than the medical definition.
And there is ample evidence of premeditation, and that he knew what he was about to do would result in his detention and arrest. Legally, this nutjob may very well be sane enough to stand trial.
| 1011 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:25:14am |
re: #999 elizajane
There are people who are never going to be convinced that they were in the wrong. Fortunately, I think that the general public is convinced that those people were in the wrong. The general public can spot a lame excuse, and that's what they're being offered from the far right at the moment.
If Palin--or anybody on the right--had seized this moment to take responsibility, come out against hate speech, and sound like an adult, they could have won some points. But nobody has been capable of that except perhaps David Frum.
two long years of turning a blind eye....I presume guilt of inflamming violence via the brazen abuse of free speech...whatever went down in the past is over and we have to deal with the present....the 1st is going to get hammered whenever the pols decide to deal with the issue....and they know it
| 1012 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:25:48am |
re: #1005 mr.fusion
The thing is, if this event had happened when Bush was president, with a Republican congressperson, I'd still be blaming the same group of people: anti-government whackjobs who use violent, extremist rhetoric.
The difference is that many of those people are now mainstream in the GOP.
| 1013 |
mr.fusion Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:26:20am |
re: #987 marjoriemoon
I got a feeling if he had GOP buttons, posters and he was a registered Republican, they'd still say he was a lefty.
My impression of the right wing the last 24 hours:
How dare you use this tragedy to make political points!!!!11!!11
Wait, a guy he knew 5 years ago called him a lefty? Let's use this tragedy to make political points!!!!!11!
| 1014 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:26:45am |
re: #998 Fozzie Bear
that isn't what I said or meant
I posted plenty of times in this and other threads that I think it is a large mistake to try to ascribe political significance to an insane act.
and I'm certainly not trying to support anything said/done by Sarah Palin actions/supporters in any previously linked post.
I'm not even a member of the 'she's good- looking' group...
although when she first came onto the national stage, I kinda agreed with what Pres. Bill Clinton said:
"I tell you what, now- that Sarah Palin is one candidate I could reeeaally get behind, yessirree.'
| 1015 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:26:57am |
re: #1010 Fozzie Bear
Heh. A lawyer friend of mine said one of the best tests of the insanity defense is if the defendant agrees to it. If they do, they're probably not insane enough to use it.
| 1016 |
Kronocide Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:27:25am |
'Bushitler nuff siad.'
Neo-Conservative Malconcentrated response to accusations that Jared Laughner was responding to violent right wing rhetoric, January 2011
| 1017 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:27:43am |
re: #1014 Capitalist Tool
I posted plenty of times in this and other threads that I think it is a large mistake to try to ascribe political significance to an insane act.
Do you think Hasan's shootings at Fort Hood had anything to do with his extremist Muslim beliefs?
| 1018 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:28:14am |
re: #1012 Obdicut
The thing is, if this event had happened when Bush was president, with a Republican congressperson, I'd still be blaming the same group of people: anti-government whackjobs who use violent, extremist rhetoric.
The difference is that many of those people are now mainstream in the GOP.
The point is, I think, and the reason the charges of equivalence crumble upon examination, no prominent political figures during the Bush years were calling for violence. The fringe did, but there received no validation or encouragement from the Democrats. Nobody talked about revolution at campaign rallies. Nobody with any influence implied that shooting people may be necessary.
The same cannot be said of the current trend.
| 1019 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:28:27am |
re: #1002 marjoriemoon
IIRC, the only things that matter in an insanity defense are being able to show that the individual was so mentally incapacitated at the time of the crime that they didn't know what they were doing and that they had no concept of right and wrong.
If Dahmer couldn't climb over that wall, this kid has no chance in hell.
| 1020 |
Reginald Perrin Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:28:32am |
re: #999 elizajane
There are people who are never going to be convinced that they were in the wrong. Fortunately, I think that the general public is convinced that those people were in the wrong. The general public can spot a lame excuse, and that's what they're being offered from the far right at the moment.
If Palin--or anybody on the right--had seized this moment to take responsibility, come out against hate speech, and sound like an adult, they could have won some points. But nobody has been capable of that except perhaps David Frum.
Frum doesn't count, he had been targeted by the far right. Charles personal stalkers were among the antagonists.
| 1021 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:29:20am |
re: #1017 Obdicut
yes
is Hasan insane, or just political?
| 1022 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:29:39am |
re: #1017 Obdicut
Do you think Hasan's shootings at Fort Hood had anything to do with his extremist Muslim beliefs?
Of course not, he was just a lone crazy person who was off his meds. His beliefs had nothing to do with it. /
| 1023 |
Daniel Ballard Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:30:03am |
Just to get the ball rolling, I hope- I had commented on this now that I have emailed my representatives, I thought I'd see who might agree strongly enough to do the same.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
| 1024 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:30:13am |
| 1025 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:30:28am |
| 1026 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:30:54am |
re: #1021 Capitalist Tool
yes
is Hasan insane, or just political?
1. You're confusing the medical and legal definitions of insanity. It's possible to be clinically mentally ill or insane, but still know what you're doing when you commit a crime, making you legally sane.
2. Hasan was both disturbed AND political. They're not mutually exclusive.
| 1027 |
What, me worry? Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:31:20am |
re: #1007 Obdicut
The legal definition of insanity for purposes of the plea is very, very, very different than the medical definition.
Well I think a history of mental illness would help his attorney with an insanity defense.
My understanding of using the insanity defense, the defendant isn't able to process right from wrong. Where Dahmer is concerned:
[Link: articles.latimes.com...]
To find him insane, 10 of the jurors had to agree that he suffered from a mental disease that prevented him either from knowing right from wrong or from being able to control his actions.
Dahmer admitted to knowing what he did was wrong, but that he couldn't help himself - which lead to the insanity defense, but it wasn't accepted.
I just can't see any juror in Tucson letting this man live, but who knows what's going to happen.
| 1028 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:31:34am |
re: #1021 Capitalist Tool
yes
is Hasan insane, or just political?
He's insane, and in his insanity, fixated on violent, extremist Muslim rhetoric.
| 1029 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:31:47am |
Guys, clearly we have had this all wrong all along. The problems with islamic extremists in the middle east are just isolated incidents of crazy people doing crazy things. Ideology has nothing to do with any of this. 9/11 was just 12 crazy people that happened to have the same idea at the same time. /
| 1030 |
lawhawk Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:32:23am |
re: #1010 Fozzie Bear
From what I've read, I think he knew that it might end in his death or injury. It's less clear that he knew he'd be arrested (ability to understand difference between right and wrong, which is one of the guides in determining whether a person is competent to stand trial). I don't think he's going to avoid going on trial, but his lawyers may attempt the insanity defense by showing that he has been suffering from mental health issues for the past several years and they have gotten progressively worse.
| 1031 |
mr.fusion Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:32:29am |
re: #1018 Fozzie Bear
The point is, I think, and the reason the charges of equivalence crumble upon examination, no prominent political figures during the Bush years were calling for violence. The fringe did, but there received no validation or encouragement from the Democrats. Nobody talked about revolution at campaign rallies. Nobody with any influence implied that shooting people may be necessary.
The same cannot be said of the current trend.
I've been trying to find a way to say the exact same thing all freaking day. Good post and oh so true.
| 1032 |
eltito Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:32:38am |
re: #926 Fozzie Bear
With the exception of the Beck quote re: killing Michael Moore, none of that is an explicit call for violence (even out of context the Beck quote seems tongue-in-cheek).
Silly, misguided, wrong, downright idiotic, sure. But nothing there could be construed to be calling for rational people to commit violence.
You're calling for self-regulation, I understand, and that's fine and I have no issue with it. But what if they choose not to self-regulate?
| 1033 |
What, me worry? Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:33:08am |
re: #1019 Lidane
IIRC, the only things that matter in an insanity defense are being able to show that the individual was so mentally incapacitated at the time of the crime that they didn't know what they were doing and that they had no concept of right and wrong.
If Dahmer couldn't climb over that wall, this kid has no chance in hell.
heh! My thoughts exactly.
| 1034 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:33:36am |
And the holocaust? Obviously there was something in the water in Germany. What a sad epidemic of random mental illness that was! Good thing ideology had nothing to do with it. /
| 1035 |
uncah91 Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:33:49am |
re: #1029 Fozzie Bear
Guys, clearly we have had this all wrong all along. The problems with islamic extremists in the middle east are just isolated incidents of crazy people doing crazy things. Ideology has nothing to do with any of this. 9/11 was just 12 crazy people that happened to have the same idea at the same time. /
I'm definitely in favor of toning down rhetoric, but I don't think the republicans who are inciting violence actually want it to occur.
That is the difference between true terrorists and what the right wing machine is doing.
| 1036 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:33:50am |
re: #1030 lawhawk
From what I've read, I think he knew that it might end in his death or injury. It's less clear that he knew he'd be arrested (ability to understand difference between right and wrong, which is one of the guides in determining whether a person is competent to stand trial). I don't think he's going to avoid going on trial, but his lawyers may attempt the insanity defense by showing that he has been suffering from mental health issues for the past several years and they have gotten progressively worse.
in a year or two, he's gonna wish he was dead...what's going to happen to him is brutal by my standars
| 1037 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:34:20am |
re: #1030 lawhawk
I don't think, post-Hinkley, they'll be allowed to successfully plead that. Not with the amount of premeditation.
| 1038 |
garhighway Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:34:22am |
Afternoon, all. Here's today's Krugman, which happens to be on-topic.
I note that today he is talking politics, so those of you with KDS may want to pass this by.
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
| 1039 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:35:06am |
re: #1032 eltito
But nothing there could be construed to be calling for rational people to commit violence.
So we're saying that this kid is rational now, since he clearly wasn't influenced at all by any of the political rhetoric of the past two years? Good to know.
| 1040 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:35:22am |
thedailybeast
Palin's Other Arizona "Targets"...They tell @shushwalshe about the wave of death threats they received. [Link: thebea.st...]
| 1041 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:35:58am |
We had the winter's first measurable snowfall this morning and it was one of those lovely, quiet big-flake affairs that didn't last too long.
The streets are still too warm for it to cause any problems.
| 1042 |
eltito Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:36:33am |
re: #974 Jadespring
It's much more complex then just assuming, well right thinking people will understand it this way and any one else just doesn't think right.
I'm sorry, I completely disagree. Many things in our judicial system are heavily contingent on how rational people view a situation. I'm not sure how else one could fairly judge something.
| 1043 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:37:02am |
re: #1040 Stanley Sea
thedailybeast
Palin's Other Arizona "Targets"...They tell @shushwalshe about the wave of death threats they received. [Link: thebea.st...]
Pfft. We all know that words don't have consequences and that none of the heated rhetoric during the health care debate or over the last two years has had an effect at all. Aren't you listening to all the spin? All those threats are clearly coincidental.
///
| 1044 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:37:15am |
re: #847 000G
Apparently, Jim "Dim" Hoft fell for a fake Facebook page: [Link: cc.bingj.com...]
"Eat crow, leftist hacks!"
| 1045 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:37:23am |
re: #1032 eltito
With the exception of the Beck quote re: killing Michael Moore, none of that is an explicit call for violence (even out of context the Beck quote seems tongue-in-cheek).
Silly, misguided, wrong, downright idiotic, sure. But nothing there could be construed to be calling for rational people to commit violence.
You're calling for self-regulation, I understand, and that's fine and I have no issue with it. But what if they choose not to self-regulate?
If they choose to self-regulate more non rational people will commit violence against our elected representatives or other figures of the government along with possibly others who happen to be nearby them.
| 1046 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:37:27am |
re: #989 Gus 802
First off... it is evident that there has been a infectious use of gun rhetoric, revolutionary rhetoric and button-pushing metaphors coming from the politically right. It would be nice to see it stop, if not for any other reason expect for the fact that we have a method to effect change in this country, and that method is debate and the ballot box.
Like I said above, I'm not as concerned with who started it, or trying to find out which side of the scale is favored, I just think it should stop, all around.
No, when it comes to Jared, I'll give you some observations. While you may find some common foundational jumping off points with his rhetoric that are shades of some libertarian and far right political speech, what I am missing in all this is the group speak.
People that belong to religious groups, political groups, fraternities, secret societies and so on, usually have a group speak. Its both use as bonding mechanism and a built in pass code, a way to recognize "inner" member, tried and true believers. There are "code" words, catch phrases and unique word usages, germane to that group.
Now, I read Ron Pauls flavor of Libertarian. My girlfriends dead husband was a libertarian, even a libertarian candidate for Congress. I've read tons of Bircher material over the years, and I have a armchair degree in the occult and contemporary religions.
I just don't see the group speak in his rants and videos, in his comments and peripheral material. Yes, I hear him talking about money, but none of the anti-federal bank key words from the Paul types. I hear him talking about mind control, but once again, none of the hot button memes commonly heard from mind control proponents, from Alex Jones up to David Ickes. And his "spiritual" view, as little as we've seen so far, once again is from the shallow end of the conspiracy pool, just not much connection with any mainstream crazy. In short, he is almost beret of group speak.
He's a very unique nut. Then again, I guess most mentally unstable people are unique with in their own world. But there are plain vanilla crazy and then there are these types that can't be pegged so easily.
Yes, certain rhetorical button pushing can push people like this over the edge, or confirm to them that they are standing on the correct edge, and then they feel justified in jumping. But how did he get "here" from "there. There are a lot of missing links in the study of the evolution of Jared.
But I don't think anyone at this point can give this guy a final stamp of political disapproval. For me the verdict is far from decided.
Now, reread my opening paragraph and and if you take anything away from this comment, take that with you.
| 1047 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:38:17am |
re: #1036 albusteve
in a year or two, he's gonna wish he was dead...what's going to happen to him is brutal by my standars
a child murderer in the midst of men who have been confined and denied seeing their own loved ones grow will not make it for very long...
| 1048 |
Varek Raith Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:38:31am |
re: #1041 Capitalist Tool
We had the winter's first measurable snowfall this morning and it was one of those lovely, quiet big-flake affairs that didn't last too long.
The streets are still too warm for it to cause any problems.
We get a little snow and this happens...
Ten injured in 52-vehicle crash on I-95
| 1049 |
Kronocide Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:39:18am |
There is an equivalence between outright violent rhetoric in the Clinton through Bush years, in that no matter what side it truly was fringe.
Nowadays that evil toxic sludge is bubbling up into the mainstream. It's very different in the last two years due to the economy and a black man in the white house.
| 1050 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:41:08am |
re: #1036 albusteve
in a year or two, he's gonna wish he was dead...what's going to happen to him is brutal by my standars
He's facing federal charges, not state ones. He'll probably end up in a Supermax type prison, meaning he'd never be around others at all.
| 1051 |
Jeff In Ohio Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:41:24am |
re: #1009 Killgore Trout
We can do both. The content of the original memo still stands, the DHS, for whatever reason, is looking into possible links to American Renaissance. The wingnut claim of vindication since 24 hours later the feds aren't announcing proof of a link is bogus. They're still looking into it.
What is the content of the original memo that DHS never sent out and now they claim to Greg Sargent at best is
[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]
a law enforcement official getting unofficial info from a DHS official somewhere along the lines of what Fox reported.
??
The wingnuts claim vindication of a fake Fox News story not supported by DHS.. quite a victory for them.
| 1052 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:41:30am |
re: #1047 Capitalist Tool
a child murderer in the midst of men who have been confined and denied seeing their own loved ones grow will not make it for very long...
this guy will never associate with other prisoners....he's a gonner, he'll waste away in some ward or solitary cell....his twisted mind made that choice
| 1053 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:41:31am |
Look at this video of this paranoid liberal lady, acting like she might be in danger. Why would people think that the use of symbols like crosshairs surveyor marks in poltical ads could possibly have bad consequences? Those liberals, always playing the victim card.
| 1054 |
Ericus58 Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:41:43am |
re: #1038 garhighway
Afternoon, all. Here's today's Krugman, which happens to be on-topic.
I note that today he is talking politics, so those of you with KDS may want to pass this by.
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
I don't disagree with much of what he talks about. The Frum quote is insightful.
Not sure however on including O'Reilly as being equal to Beck. Over the top in saying he's called for physical violence against elected officials.
| 1055 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:41:55am |
re: #1050 Lidane
He's facing federal charges, not state ones. He'll probably end up in a Supermax type prison, meaning he'd never be around others at all.
correct
| 1056 |
eltito Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:42:32am |
re: #979 Fozzie Bear
How about calling for violent revolution? Gee, who could have possibly thought that calls for violent revolution could lead people to violence? It's a big mystery, I tell you. /
I'm speaking specifically of constitutionally protected speech. Explicit attempts to incite revolution do not qualify, to my knowledge.
I thought the general thinking was more along the lines of Palin's "target" map in this discussion. That is what I had in mind, not specific calls for violence (which should rightfully be condemned and/or prosecuted where applicable).
| 1057 |
lawhawk Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:42:48am |
re: #1037 Obdicut
Possibly. Also complicating factors is that we'll have both federal and state charges.
AZ has a guilty but criminally insane statute in effect, and that statute survived appeal to the US S.Ct. As the statute would apply in this instance, the question will be whether he was afflicted with a mental disease or defect of such severity that he did not know the criminal act was wrong. It supersedes the M’Naghten statement rule, which is in two parts:
(1) whether a mental defect leaves a defendant unable to understand what he was doing; and (2) whether a mental disease or defect leaves a defendant unable to understand that his action was wrong.
The statute also eliminates the affirmative defense if the disorder results from acute voluntary intoxication or withdrawal from alcohol or drugs, character defects, psychosexual disorders or impulse control disorders.
| 1058 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:43:02am |
re: #1054 Ericus58
O'Reilly's commentary on Tiller was incredibly fucking irresponsible, and Tiller wound up assassinated.
| 1059 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:43:04am |
re: #1046 Walter L. Newton
I apologize for my typos and misspellings, after the fact.
| 1060 |
Varek Raith Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:43:55am |
re: #1058 Obdicut
O'Reilly's commentary on Tiller was incredibly fucking irresponsible, and Tiller wound up assassinated.
Seriously.
Calling him "Tiller the baby killer" was beyond the pale.
| 1061 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:44:02am |
re: #1049 BigPapa
There is an equivalence between outright violent rhetoric in the Clinton through Bush years, in that no matter what side it truly was fringe.
Nowadays that evil toxic sludge is bubbling up into the mainstream. It's very different in the last two years due to the economy and a black man in the white house.
It is indeed unfortunate that those who disagree with Pres. Obama on philosophical grounds have not thoroughly castigated those who have crept into their midst bearing racist taint.
| 1062 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:44:25am |
re: #1057 lawhawk
Yep. If the insanity defense is tried, this will be a defining case of it, I think. Do you happen to know if she attempted the insanity defense for any of her other high-profile defendants?
| 1063 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:45:00am |
re: #1059 Walter L. Newton
I apologize for my typos and misspellings, after the fact.
too late...I can't take anyone serious that commits a typo
| 1064 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:45:32am |
re: #1056 eltito
I'm speaking specifically of constitutionally protected speech. Explicit attempts to incite revolution do not qualify, to my knowledge.
I thought the general thinking was more along the lines of Palin's "target" map in this discussion. That is what I had in mind, not specific calls for violence (which should rightfully be condemned and/or prosecuted where applicable).
One candidate in Texas said the following: ''Our nation was founded on violence. The option is on the table. I don't think that we should ever remove anything from the table as it relates to our liberties and our freedoms.''
That statement was made by Stephen Broden in Texas. Want to take a stab in the dark at whose PAC financially backed his campaign?
The Problem with Palin doesn't start and end with that ill-conceived poster with the surveyor marks on it. She is backing a wave of extremism across the country, in words and financially.
| 1065 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:45:51am |
re: #1063 albusteve
too late...I can't take anyone serious that commits a typo
Then you can take my typos and shove them [_____________] (fill in the blank) :)
| 1066 |
Capitalist Tool Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:46:23am |
re: #1065 Walter L. Newton
Then you can take my typos and shove them [___] (fill in the blank) :)
teh horror...
| 1067 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:47:18am |
re: #1065 Walter L. Newton
Then you can take my typos and shove them [___] (fill in the blank) :)
oh boy!...I love generic forms
| 1069 |
Jadespring Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:47:54am |
re: #1042 eltito
I'm sorry, I completely disagree. Many things in our judicial system are heavily contingent on how rational people view a situation. I'm not sure how else one could fairly judge something.
Well then we'll have to agree to disagree then.
I'd don't see how the way the judicial system is set up is somehow 'proof' that there aren't differences in how people conceptualize and view things like metaphor.
I do get what you're suggesting though. I would point out though that the judicial system while based on the principles of reasonableish and common rationality what is 'reasonable' and common (rational viewpoints) is not set in stone. It has changed and evolved. At one time for instance laws reflected the common and then 'rational' views that women were not persons, or blacks less then white people, that kids could work in factories. Concepts that now most reasonable people would accept to be not true and not 'rational.'
| 1070 |
eltito Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:48:51am |
re: #980 jamesfirecat
Here's an idea.
No more using gun metephores regarding political campaigns/opponents.
Is that too much to ask?
I'm fighting the temptation to appeal to slippery slope here...
I won't discount the idea out of hand, but let's not go off half cocked legislating this sort of thing (not implying that's what you're calling for, just saying).
| 1071 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:49:13am |
re: #1068 Fozzie Bear
Mad libs?
People have been playing madlibs for the last 48 hours with this subject.
| 1072 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:49:48am |
re: #1070 eltito
I'm fighting the temptation to appeal to slippery slope here...
I won't discount the idea out of hand, but let's not go off half cocked legislating this sort of thing (not implying that's what you're calling for, just saying).
How about saying that "violence is never off the table"? Would you support or defend people who finance candidates who say things like this?
| 1073 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:50:04am |
re: #1032 eltito
You're calling for self-regulation, I understand, and that's fine and I have no issue with it. But what if they choose not to self-regulate?
Then they will tear your nation apart.
| 1074 |
lawhawk Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:50:29am |
re: #1062 Obdicut
The insanity defense was considered for the Unabomber, but Kaczynski rejected this. One defense psychologist claimed he suffered from paranoid schizophrenia, but two prison psychologists disagreed that he suffered from any mental health disorder. In any event, he took a plea deal - life without parole in supermax.
I'd have to research the other cases, which I don't have time to do at the moment.
| 1075 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:50:45am |
re: #1071 Walter L. Newton
People have been playing madlibs for the last 48 hours with this subject.
not me...but I'm an oddball
| 1076 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:51:05am |
re: #929 kirkspencer
There is one teensy little problem with your contention about them being crop marks. It's the same problem that exists with the post-facto claim they're survey marks. That is the fact that Palin's site called them sights after the election.
They're crosshairs. That is evident. I don't see the map as being nearly the worst thing we've seen recently, but clearly something about the implications of it concerned Palin's people enough to finally pull it down.
That was probably a good move on her part.
| 1077 |
garhighway Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:51:21am |
re: #1057 lawhawk
Possibly. Also complicating factors is that we'll have both federal and state charges.
AZ has a guilty but criminally insane statute in effect, and that statute survived appeal to the US S.Ct. As the statute would apply in this instance, the question will be whether he was afflicted with a mental disease or defect of such severity that he did not know the criminal act was wrong. It supersedes the M’Naghten statement rule, which is in two parts:
The statute also eliminates the affirmative defense if the disorder results from acute voluntary intoxication or withdrawal from alcohol or drugs, character defects, psychosexual disorders or impulse control disorders.
Either way, it is a local (as in Tuscon) jury that decides this guy's fate. A federal jury is generally drawn from a larger geographic area, but it is still essentially local.
And whether Federal or State charges, don't they both have a death penalty for this? Without looking it up, I think they both do. So either way, he is looking at the chair, or a needle, or whatever the technique du jour is.
At the risk of armchair lawyering, it looks to me like his degree of premeditation makes a successful insanity defense unlikely. Instead, you'll see his confused state of mind offered up as a mitigating factor in trying to avoid the death penalty. With the facts as they are known right now, that would seem to the best this guy can do.
| 1079 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:52:18am |
re: #1072 Fozzie Bear
How about saying that "violence is never off the table"? Would you support or defend people who finance candidates who say things like this?
I'd kick their ass into next week if they said that to me
| 1080 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:52:19am |
re: #1073 000G
Then they will tear your nation apart.
Or win? No, I don't recommend that, but, the flip side of all this is what if the all the rhetoric becomes reality and the rhetoric-ticians win?
| 1081 |
What, me worry? Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:52:20am |
re: #1064 Fozzie Bear
One candidate in Texas said the following: ''Our nation was founded on violence. The option is on the table. I don't think that we should ever remove anything from the table as it relates to our liberties and our freedoms.''
That statement was made by Stephen Broden in Texas. Want to take a stab in the dark at whose PAC financially backed his campaign?
The Problem with Palin doesn't start and end with that ill-conceived poster with the surveyor marks on it. She is backing a wave of extremism across the country, in words and financially.
I think our little gun-totin', pistol-packin' mamma grizzly had no clue, or maybe no care, that anything she said or did could result in negative consequences. But whether she knew it or not, scoring votes with "real Americans" was the only thing she really cared about.
Her name and that map has been plastered all over the airwaves for 3 days now and she hasn't bothered to condemn it or apologize for it. She's probably afraid of being sued.
| 1082 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:52:36am |
re: #931 Walter L. Newton
I know... I read about it early this morning. I figured it would get lost in all the noise anyway... maybe shout louder.
Well DAYUM. I didn't want to know that. Because, you see, I am totally uninterested in what went wrong with this kid, and am absolutely determined to spin this as hard as I can to paint honest hardworking conservative as responsible for this unforeseeable tragedy so I can take away their guns and freedom of speech.
Yeah. Like that.
| 1083 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:52:38am |
re: #1053 Fozzie Bear
Look at this video of this paranoid liberal lady, acting like she might be in danger. Why would people think that the use of symbols like
crosshairssurveyor marks in poltical ads could possibly have bad consequences? Those liberals, always playing the victim card.
[Video]
Yeah, she was clearly trying to score political points by putting a spin on the average expression of non-political patriotism in the country.
////
| 1084 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:52:44am |
| 1085 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:52:50am |
re: #1076 SanFranciscoZionist
They're crosshairs. That is evident. I don't see the map as being nearly the worst thing we've seen recently, but clearly something about the implications of it concerned Palin's people enough to finally pull it down.
That was probably a good move on her part.
I think the really cogent point regarding Palin is, that poster isn't anywhere close to the most inflammatory thing she has said or done in the past couple of years.
| 1086 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:52:55am |
Giffords Sent Email On Eve Of Shooting Calling For Toned Down Rhetoric
In the email, which Grayson provided to cn|2 Politics, Giffords said she wanted work with Grayson on ways to encourage tamping down the current tone of political discourse.
“After you get settled, I would love to talk about what we can do to promote centrism and moderation. I am one of only 12 Dems left in a GOP district (the only woman) and think that we need to figure out how to tone our rhetoric and partisanship down,” Giffords wrote to Grayson. See the full text of the email below.
She wrote the message the evening before attending a meeting with constituents Saturday morning in Tucson at which a gunman critically wounded Giffords and 12 others and killed six people, including a federal judge. The motives of the alleged shooter, 22-year-old Jared Loughner, remain unclear. But the tragedy has touched-off a national conversation about the political climate and tone.
| 1087 |
Reginald Perrin Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:52:58am |
re: #1070 eltito
I'm fighting the temptation to appeal to slippery slope here...
I won't discount the idea out of hand, but let's not go off half cocked legislating this sort of thing (not implying that's what you're calling for, just saying).
It's not a good time to bring in that straw-man. Nobody here mentioned anything about legislation.
| 1088 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:53:48am |
re: #1080 Walter L. Newton
Or win? No, I don't recommend that, but, the flip side of all this is what if the all the rhetoric becomes reality and the rhetoric-ticians win?
Whatever it is the rhetoric-ticians would win, it won't be the american nation anymore.
| 1089 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:54:25am |
re: #946 Jadespring
Well I could totally believe that at one point his views were more 'standard' left wing (The tweets from people that alledgelly knew him). I could totally believe that now they are more right wing and in this case libertarian right wing as evidence suggests. Why, because I've known 'lefties' to get sucked into that worldview. Watched it happen to a friend of mine (no longer a friend). He got sucked right into nutty conspiracy world too. For some reason they seem to go together with a lot of people.
I've known people who use that fact that people come to this type political worldview, gold standard stuff in particular from both right and left as actual proof that it must be true and the right way of seeing things because hey if a previous leftie can see it and a mainstream rightie can see it then there MUST be something to it.
The craziness wraps around.
| 1090 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:54:54am |
re: #1076 SanFranciscoZionist
They're crosshairs. That is evident. I don't see the map as being nearly the worst thing we've seen recently, but clearly something about the implications of it concerned Palin's people enough to finally pull it down.
That was probably a good move on her part.
showboating...and it's worse than bad taste...it only goes to show how clueless her juvenile approach to fanning her popularity is....she's an idiot if she can't see what her target thing might mean to her frothing minions
| 1091 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:55:00am |
| 1092 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:55:04am |
re: #951 Varek Raith
You know what's amusingly sad and obvious?
We wouldn't be having this discussion over violent, political rhetoric is this guy were Muslim.
We simply wouldn't.
Or, at least, certain players would have quite a different take on the whole thing.
| 1093 |
Reginald Perrin Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:56:03am |
| 1094 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:57:00am |
re: #1086 Killgore Trout
Giffords Sent Email On Eve Of Shooting Calling For Toned Down Rhetoric
Damn.
| 1095 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:57:06am |
re: #1088 000G
Whatever it is the rhetoric-ticians would win, it won't be the american nation anymore.
Three hundred year ago, we weren't like the American nation. Things can change, if the minority becomes the acceptable majority, then it's all the same.
| 1096 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:57:26am |
| 1097 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:57:42am |
re: #956 jamesfirecat
The idea is not to egg on the crazy pants people... she could have easily expressed the same message without using such violent terminology...
Mysteriously, Emmanuel Cleaver is saying everything I would like said.
Makes no sense. Why isn't he demonizing Sarah Palin? Must be a sinister plan of some kind.
| 1098 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:58:00am |
re: #1093 Reginald Perrin
Your a troll Walter, I meant a credible blogger.
And your reading comprehension and ability to follow a simple thread is lacking.
| 1099 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:59:06am |
re: #971 Fozzie Bear
Find me a statement from within the past several years, made by a prominent figure on the left who wields either significant influence or actual political power, even remotely comparable to the explicit calls for violence I posted above in #926.
You are drawing a false equivalence.
"Enemy of humanity."
That's the one that really gets me.
| 1100 |
kirkspencer Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:59:42am |
re: #1046 Walter L. Newton
First off... it is evident that there has been a infectious use of gun rhetoric, revolutionary rhetoric and button-pushing metaphors coming from the politically right. It would be nice to see it stop, if not for any other reason expect for the fact that we have a method to effect change in this country, and that method is debate and the ballot box.
Like I said above, I'm not as concerned with who started it, or trying to find out which side of the scale is favored, I just think it should stop, all around.
No, when it comes to Jared, I'll give you some observations. While you may find some common foundational jumping off points with his rhetoric that are shades of some libertarian and far right political speech, what I am missing in all this is the group speak.
People that belong to religious groups, political groups, fraternities, secret societies and so on, usually have a group speak. Its both use as bonding mechanism and a built in pass code, a way to recognize "inner" member, tried and true believers. There are "code" words, catch phrases and unique word usages, germane to that group.
Now, I read Ron Pauls flavor of Libertarian. My girlfriends dead husband was a libertarian, even a libertarian candidate for Congress. I've read tons of Bircher material over the years, and I have a armchair degree in the occult and contemporary religions.
I just don't see the group speak in his rants and videos, in his comments and peripheral material. Yes, I hear him talking about money, but none of the anti-federal bank key words from the Paul types. I hear him talking about mind control, but once again, none of the hot button memes commonly heard from mind control proponents, from Alex Jones up to David Ickes. And his "spiritual" view, as little as we've seen so far, once again is from the shallow end of the conspiracy pool, just not much connection with any mainstream crazy. In short, he is almost beret of group speak.
He's a very unique nut. Then again, I guess most mentally unstable people are unique with in their own world. But there are plain vanilla crazy and then there are these types that can't be pegged so easily.
Yes, certain rhetorical button pushing can push people like this over the edge, or confirm to them that they are standing on the correct edge, and then they feel justified in jumping. But how did he get "here" from "there. There are a lot of missing links in the study of the evolution of Jared.
But I don't think anyone at this point can give this guy a final stamp of political disapproval. For me the verdict is far from decided.
Now, reread my opening paragraph and and if you take anything away from this comment, take that with you.
Actually, I'd like to something may change your mind.
The particular code words and phrasings are in line with the writing of David Wynn Miller. Instead of cherrypicking, I'll link DWM's site here (it's via google-link, no direct traffic).
Now to me, it appears he's using translated code words for the currency and other issues. I could, of course, be biased and allowing that bias to influence my impression, but it is my impression.
| 1101 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Jan 10, 2011 10:59:47am |
re: #1095 Walter L. Newton
Three hundred year ago, we weren't like the American nation. Things can change, if the minority becomes the acceptable majority, then it's all the same.
Oh, sure: Regression is always possible. But I wouldn't be so foolish to mistake it for mere change.
| 1102 |
Reginald Perrin Mon, Jan 10, 2011 11:00:59am |
re: #1098 Walter L. Newton
And your reading comprehension and ability to follow a simple thread is lacking.
Give it up Wally, I don't feed trolls, especially the drama queens.
Have a safe and enjoyable trip.
| 1103 |
albusteve Mon, Jan 10, 2011 11:00:59am |
re: #1087 Reginald Perrin
It's not a good time to bring in that straw-man. Nobody here mentioned anything about legislation.
I mentioned the 1st coming under scutiny...and as I've said many times I believe that sooner or later there will be legislation to legally rein in brazen abuse of free speech...further up thread legislation was implied
| 1104 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Jan 10, 2011 11:02:48am |
re: #1008 Jadespring
Oh hey that reminds me. SFZ you still around?
Way back when we were talking about this movie and I said I had it taped but hadn't bothered to watch it.
I'd said I'd let you know about if I ever did.Well I did end up watching it when I got the flu for two weeks in Nov.
Thoughts?
| 1105 |
eltito Mon, Jan 10, 2011 11:04:18am |
re: #1072 Fozzie Bear
How about saying that "violence is never off the table"? Would you support or defend people who finance candidates who say things like this?
What do you mean by support, exactly? Support the sentiment or support their right to express it?
| 1106 |
Reginald Perrin Mon, Jan 10, 2011 11:05:12am |
re: #1103 albusteve
I mentioned the 1st coming under scutiny...and as I've said many times I believe that sooner or later there will be legislation to legally rein in brazen abuse of free speech...further up thread legislation was implied
| 1107 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Jan 10, 2011 11:05:41am |
re: #1032 eltito
With the exception of the Beck quote re: killing Michael Moore, none of that is an explicit call for violence (even out of context the Beck quote seems tongue-in-cheek).
Silly, misguided, wrong, downright idiotic, sure. But nothing there could be construed to be calling for rational people to commit violence.
You're calling for self-regulation, I understand, and that's fine and I have no issue with it. But what if they choose not to self-regulate?
As far as I can tell, the message is 'We won't self-regulate'.
OK. I can't make them.
I can not vote for them. I can speak out against their ugliness. I can support candidates who don't use such language.
But sorry, there is no lefty agenda to muffle the voice of the oppressed politicians and pundits of the world. If they go on using this language, no one can do anything about it, except vote their asses in or out of office on the strength of it.
| 1108 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 11:06:06am |
re: #1100 kirkspencer
Actually, I'd like to something may change your mind.
The particular code words and phrasings are in line with the writing of David Wynn Miller. Instead of cherrypicking, I'll link DWM's site here (it's via google-link, no direct traffic).
Now to me, it appears he's using translated code words for the currency and other issues. I could, of course, be biased and allowing that bias to influence my impression, but it is my impression.
I'm not even sure what that is... it looks like gibberish. Do you know what textual criticism is? It's a science, a way of looking at text and forensically finding clues to certain things, writing styles, author styles, it can work hand in hand with group speak concepts.
Is David Wynn mainstream like Ron Paul, Sarah Palin, popular Libertarian politicians we know of... that the groups I was taking about... mainstream people... I don't see their group speak in Jared speak.
| 1109 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Jan 10, 2011 11:07:26am |
re: #1035 uncah91
I'm definitely in favor of toning down rhetoric, but I don't think the republicans who are inciting violence actually want it to occur.
That is the difference between true terrorists and what the right wing machine is doing.
That's a fair point. The problem is that the RRW really wants the benefits that they reap from getting people hyped up and hysterical and misinformed. They don't intend to produce violent results. (I'd argue that people like Randall Terry do want to produce those results. Michelle Bachmann? No.)
| 1110 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Jan 10, 2011 11:07:49am |
re: #1106 Reginald Perrin
A troll is someone who makes corrects Reggie and show that he is wrong. A true blogger hangs on pins and needles of every word he says.
It's getting rote.
| 1111 |
eltito Mon, Jan 10, 2011 11:10:37am |
re: #1064 Fozzie Bear
One candidate in Texas said the following: ''Our nation was founded on violence. The option is on the table. I don't think that we should ever remove anything from the table as it relates to our liberties and our freedoms.''
That statement was made by Stephen Broden in Texas. Want to take a stab in the dark at whose PAC financially backed his campaign?
The Problem with Palin doesn't start and end with that ill-conceived poster with the surveyor marks on it. She is backing a wave of extremism across the country, in words and financially.
That's fine and I don't disagree with you. The Texas guy's quote wasn't really a call for violence as much as an apoplectic rhetorical device, but I understand your point.
What I don't understand is what you propose to do about it. What consequences do you propose for those who engage in perfectly legal speech such as this?
| 1112 |
andres Mon, Jan 10, 2011 11:13:09am |
re: #1111 eltito
That's fine and I don't disagree with you. The Texas guy's quote wasn't really a call for violence as much as an apoplectic rhetorical device, but I understand your point.
What I don't understand is what you propose to do about it. What consequences do you propose for those who engage in perfectly legal speech such as this?
Make themselves personal responsible for the consequences of such rash and violent speech? I don't know, I'm going with what their campaigning platform says.
| 1113 |
Reginald Perrin Mon, Jan 10, 2011 11:15:22am |
re: #1112 andres
Make themselves personal responsible for the consequences of such rash and violent speech? I don't know, I'm going with what their campaigning platform says.
Do you really expect the party that preaches personal responsibility to actually practice what they preach?
They are going into full spin mode.
| 1114 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Jan 10, 2011 11:16:17am |
re: #1085 Fozzie Bear
I think the really cogent point regarding Palin is, that poster isn't anywhere close to the most inflammatory thing she has said or done in the past couple of years.
True. And she is far from the worst of the pundits OR the politicos.
| 1115 |
MSBoxer Mon, Jan 10, 2011 11:21:32am |
When I posted the link to the tweets from his former classmate, I was in no way saying that his past affiliation with the left was indicative of his motives. But one must admit that while this information is 3 years old it at least exists, where there is no link to the right at all. It is also worth noting that his former friend has stated that he had problems with Giffords more than 3 years ago....LONG before Palin was ever on the scene.
According to some reports his problems with Giffords stemmed from the fact that he felt she was a fraud and not truely a liberal. Of course this may just be more noise.
Bottom line - he was a nutjob, who hated Giffords and has for many years. I honestly do not believe that political leanings had no role in his decision to pull the trigger.
| 1116 |
MSBoxer Mon, Jan 10, 2011 11:25:21am |
re: #1115 MSBoxer
When I posted the link to the tweets from his former classmate, I was in no way saying that his past affiliation with the left was indicative of his motives. But one must admit that while this information is 3 years old it at least exists, where there is no link to the right at all. It is also worth noting that his former friend has stated that he had problems with Giffords more than 3 years ago...LONG before Palin was ever on the scene.
According to some reports his problems with Giffords stemmed from the fact that he felt she was a fraud and not truely a liberal. Of course this may just be more noise.
Bottom line - he was a nutjob, who hated Giffords and has for many years. I honestly do not believe that political leanings had no role in his decision to pull the trigger.
SORRY _ LAST LINE SHOULD READ "had ANY role in his decision to pull the trigger"
| 1117 |
andres Mon, Jan 10, 2011 11:25:25am |
re: #1113 Reginald Perrin
Do you really expect the party that preaches personal responsibility to actually practice what they preach?
They are going into full spin mode.
Hey! That's why I said their campaigning platform, not their governing platform. ;P
| 1118 |
Reginald Perrin Mon, Jan 10, 2011 11:26:23am |
re: #1115 MSBoxer
You're all punched out Boxer, and the magic balance fairy is already upstairs on the next post.
| 1119 |
eltito Mon, Jan 10, 2011 11:26:39am |
re: #1107 SanFranciscoZionist
As far as I can tell, the message is 'We won't self-regulate'.
OK. I can't make them.
I can not vote for them. I can speak out against their ugliness. I can support candidates who don't use such language.
But sorry, there is no lefty agenda to muffle the voice of the oppressed politicians and pundits of the world. If they go on using this language, no one can do anything about it, except vote their asses in or out of office on the strength of it.
That is perfectly reasonable and the way in which I would hope everybody sees it. Thank you.
| 1120 |
Reginald Perrin Mon, Jan 10, 2011 11:27:41am |
re: #1117 andres
Hey! That's why I said their campaigning platform, not their governing platform. ;P
Touché
| 1121 |
kirkspencer Mon, Jan 10, 2011 11:33:00am |
re: #1108 Walter L. Newton
"Judge" David Wynn Miller is a big fish in a small pond, who has been so influential in that pond that his stuff has splashed into other lakes. (sorry for that extended metaphor. and yet it works.)
His primary "pond" is in the Patriots/Separatists/Sovereign area, where he's influential enough the SPLC had an article on him in 2003 and considers him one of their leaders.
Putting his particular slant more sanely, he claims that if you use language precisely you can remove governmental control of you and yours. His "gobblygook" is his attempt to be precise and at the same time his own sovereign.
Though it's secondhand, I think you can get a fair understanding of him, and as a result of why I think Loughner is using his codewords, by reading the 2003 SPLC article I linked. It takes me a significant amount of time myself to parse Miller's actual stuff, though I've gotten better due to sheer perseverance.
| 1122 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 11:34:03am |
re: #1115 MSBoxer
How is espousing Paulian anti-governmental crap not having any connection to the right wing?
| 1123 |
MSBoxer Mon, Jan 10, 2011 11:43:51am |
re: #1118 Reginald Perrin
You're all punched out Boxer, and the magic balance fairy is already upstairs on the next post.
How so? I am simply trying to point out that there is early evidence that he was at least one time left leaning, while there is no evidence that he has ever been associated with the right at this time. All of this effort to link him to Palin, Beck or Limbaugh is premature at best and partisan at worst.
Let me posit that it is possible that Giffords failure to support Pelosi as minority speaker COULD have been the final straw for this wackjob. It is possible, perhaps not likely, but at least as possible as an old campaign image with a target on it.
As I said before, the guy is crazy and that may be the only reason for this crime.
| 1124 |
MSBoxer Mon, Jan 10, 2011 11:47:01am |
re: #1122 Obdicut
How is espousing Paulian anti-governmental crap not having any connection to the right wing?
Hi anti-governmental postings strike me as the rants of an anarchist which exists at both ends of the political spectrum.
| 1125 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 11:56:32am |
re: #1124 MSBoxer
Yes. Especially on the right-wing, especially in the modern day, where Alex Jones is now embraced by the right, Glenn Beck espouses buying gold, etc.
| 1126 |
Lateralis Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:03:48pm |
But U.S. News blogger Robert Schlesinger believes it’s too soon to have that argument. He writes: “Ascribing a political motive or philosophy to an apparent madman before we have all the facts does little to calm the tone of our politics, and it threatens to distract from the unfolding tragedy by refocusing attention on familiar rote debates.”
| 1127 |
MSBoxer Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:11:42pm |
re: #1126 Lateralis
But U.S. News blogger Robert Schlesinger believes it’s too soon to have that argument. He writes: “Ascribing a political motive or philosophy to an apparent madman before we have all the facts does little to calm the tone of our politics, and it threatens to distract from the unfolding tragedy by refocusing attention on familiar rote debates.”
Exactly the point I was trying to make.
| 1128 |
MSBoxer Mon, Jan 10, 2011 12:13:09pm |
re: #1125 Obdicut
Yes. Especially on the right-wing, especially in the modern day, where Alex Jones is now embraced by the right, Glenn Beck espouses buying gold, etc.
Hmm, it seems that wikipedia (for what it is worth) disagrees with you here.
"Anarchism is often considered to be a radical left-wing ideology,[8][9] and much of anarchist economics and anarchist legal philosophy reflect anti-statist interpretations of communism, collectivism, syndicalism or participatory economics. However, anarchism has always included an individualist strain [10] supporting a market economy and private property, or morally unrestrained egoism.[11][12] Some individualist anarchists are also socialists.[13][14]"
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
| 1129 |
lostlakehiker Mon, Jan 10, 2011 2:46:12pm |
re: #341 Charles
All of the things you cite are perfectly consistent with an extreme right wing libertarian ideology, of the Ron Paul/Alex Jones variety.
At the risk of accumulating a further ton of negative karma, I don't see it like that. Has Ron Paul endorsed the Communist Manifesto? Of course not.
If Alex Jones has, then I'd have to say he doesn't count as any kind of RW in my book.
Here are some more facts bearing on the question of Loughner's sanity. Shall we grant that if he's just flat off his rocker, then he's different from an al Qaeda suicide bomber, a Unabomber, or a Timothy McVeigh? Those people may be insane in some sense, but McVeigh was sane enough to be tried, convicted, and executed. This case sounds different.
Sorenson said that Loughner never threatened violence, but she felt menaced by him. She said her only previous contact with someone like that came at time when she was working in a psychiatric hospital.
| 1130 |
Obdicut Mon, Jan 10, 2011 3:11:51pm |
re: #1129 lostlakehiker
Why don't you feel that he's sane enough to be tried? Do you understand the legal bar for an insanity defense?
| 1131 |
lostlakehiker Mon, Jan 10, 2011 3:41:51pm |
re: #1130 Obdicut
Why don't you feel that he's sane enough to be tried? Do you understand the legal bar for an insanity defense?
I did grant exactly that, in an earlier post. The distinction I draw is that I don't think he'll get the death penalty. I predicted a verdict of guilty but mentally ill.
To skate, entirely, on an insanity plea is all but impossible for someone who planned his deed.
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