Creationist Science Teacher Who Branded Student With Cross Finally Fired

ScienceJanuary 2011 • Views: 27,964

Remember John Freshwater — the fanatic creationist Ohio “science teacher” who got in trouble for branding a cross into a student’s arm with a high-voltage device?

Two years later, Freshwater has finally been fired from his job — a job he never should have been given in the first place.

On January 10, 2011, the Mount Vernon City Schools Board of Education voted 4-1 to terminate the employment of John Freshwater. A middle school science teacher in Mount Vernon, Ohio, Freshwater was accused of inappropriate religious activity in the classroom — including displaying posters with the Ten Commandments and Bible verses, branding crosses on the arms of his students with a high-voltage electrical device, and teaching creationism. After a local family sued Freshwater and the district in 2008, the board voted to begin proceedings to terminate his employment in the district. Finally, after administrative hearings that proceeded sporadically over two years, the referee presiding over the hearings issued his recommendation that the board terminate his employment with the district.

Margie Bennett, the president of the board, told the Mount Vernon News (January 11, 2011), “The decision has been made to accept the referee’s recommendation to terminate the employment of Mr. Freshwater … It was not an easy decision. We don’t believe there are any winners or losers in this situation. It is a very difficult situation for everyone. We are glad it has been resolved. Hopefully we can put this behind us, the community can begin to come together again and relationships can heal and we can move forward.” The News added, “Freshwater, by law, may file an appeal with the Knox County Court of Common Pleas.” The Associated Press (January 11, 2011) reports Freshwater as expressing disappointment in the board’s decision but not indicating whether he would appeal.

Who knows how many children’s minds have been corrupted by this fanatic’s drivel? And how many more creationists are out there in the classrooms of America, teaching pseudo-science and doing their part to ruin America’s future?

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166 comments

Kragar Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:02:46pm

Branding students in the classroom and they still didn't get a unanimous decision to fire they guy? WTF

Big Steve Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:03:22pm

as mother of Big Steve was found of saying, "If there is a God, we have about as much chance of understanding him as a cat does calculus."

MrSilverDragon Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:03:25pm

I'd still like to know what was going through the mind of the one person that didn't vote to terminate.

Kragar Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:03:46pm

re: #3 MrSilverDragon

I'd still like to know what was going through the mind of the one person that didn't vote to terminate.

God has a plan.

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:04:49pm

It was such an exhausting process (the investigation, I mean). On one hand this insured the fairness. On the other hand this makes it impractical dealing with crazies this way.

The whole process was documented at Panda's Thumb and there were many interesting moments. Freshwater was lying through his teeth, for example. Such a Christian. Then there was a matter of children who were obviously told by their Christian parents to lie about what had happened in the class. Shouldn't honesty be a Christian value?

Varek Raith Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:05:56pm

Wow...

gamark Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:06:48pm

Margie Bennett, the president of the board, told the Mount Vernon News (January 11, 2011), "The decision has been made to accept the referee’s recommendation to terminate the employment of Mr. Freshwater ... It was not an easy decision.

Not an easy decision. Good grief.

jamesfirecat Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:06:49pm

Okay you know what, if the reason why it took so long to fire this a**hole was union related I just might start to buy into the "teachers unions have too much power"/"make it too hard to fire bad teachers" meme....

Big Steve Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:06:52pm

I have been on a school board. We had a teacher who came into class early and fired a weapon through the wall (it was a temporary building) when no one was around. Then during the day she "suddenly" found a bullet on her desk and the hole in the wall and rang the alarm. We had a lock down and who enchillada. She wallowed in all the sympathy of being a possible victum of an attack. When we figured out what happened it took us over a year to get her fired. There is lots one has to do to accomplish the sacking without getting sued.

Big Steve Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:10:19pm

re: #5 Sergey Romanov

It was such an exhausting process (the investigation, I mean). On one hand this insured the fairness. On the other hand this makes it impractical dealing with crazies this way.

The whole process was documented at Panda's Thumb and there were many interesting moments. Freshwater was lying through his teeth, for example. Such a Christian. Then there was a matter of children who were obviously told by their Christian parents to lie about what had happened in the class. Shouldn't honesty be a Christian value?

could you provide a link

Varek Raith Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:10:39pm

This "teacher" needs to be charged with assault and malicious wounding.

albusteve Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:11:12pm

"it was not an easy decision"
"it is a very difficult situation for everyone"
she should be fired next

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:11:44pm

re: #10 Big Steve

Yes, a moment.

albusteve Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:12:04pm

re: #3 MrSilverDragon

I'd still like to know what was going through the mind of the one person that didn't vote to terminate.

a fat payoff in the bank?

Fenris Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:13:02pm

He got away with being fired? In any other job, you'd probably be sued for forgetting to put a "WARNING: HOT" label on the break room's Mr. Coffee.

albusteve Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:13:33pm

re: #8 jamesfirecat

Okay you know what, if the reason why it took so long to fire this a**hole was union related I just might start to buy into the "teachers unions have too much power"/"make it too hard to fire bad teachers" meme...

termination proceedings would be part of the collective bargain, I'd bet

Obdicut Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:14:36pm

re: #16 albusteve

There's no mention of a union in the story at all, actually. Which is kind of odd.

beartiger Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:15:23pm

What the.... How do you brand a student and not go to jail? I must be missing something. Did the student volunteer to be branded (like getting a tattoo) or did the loon actually hold him down and brand him?

Political Atheist Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:17:33pm

What would Jesus say?....

WTF were you THINKING?!

Amory Blaine Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:19:33pm

re: #17 Obdicut

There's no mention of a union in the story at all, actually. Which is kind of odd.

But we can start blaming them though can't we?

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:19:40pm

Fucking unions. I blame this on them.

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:20:24pm

re: #3 MrSilverDragon

I'd still like to know what was going through the mind of the one person that didn't vote to terminate.

"When I was kid, schoolteachers branded me all the time, and I LIKED it!!!"

lawhawk Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:20:31pm

Panda' Thumb:

There was essentially no public discussion by the Board after the executive session and little before it. What little discussion there was before the executive session was generated by Steve Thompson, Board member and public Freshwater supporter. Thompson said that he had recused himself from deliberations on the federal litigation (though not from administrative hearing deliberations) on advice from attorneys David Millstone and Sarah Moore (as had Barone), and he wanted to know what was different that allowed Barone to withdraw her self-recusal regarding administrative hearing matters.

Big Steve Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:20:56pm

re: #21 SanFranciscoZionist

Fucking unions. I blame this on them.

//

my my (back of hand to forehead)........ such language from SFZ

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:21:41pm

re: #9 Big Steve

I have been on a school board. We had a teacher who came into class early and fired a weapon through the wall (it was a temporary building) when no one was around. Then during the day she "suddenly" found a bullet on her desk and the hole in the wall and rang the alarm. We had a lock down and who enchillada. She wallowed in all the sympathy of being a possible victum of an attack. When we figured out what happened it took us over a year to get her fired. There is lots one has to do to accomplish the sacking without getting sued.

That's...wow...that's an interesting employee problem to have.

iceweasel Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:21:54pm

re: #1 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Branding students in the classroom and they still didn't get a unanimous decision to fire they guy? WTF

How fast would this guy have been sacked if he'd branded the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Atheist symbol on someone during an evolution class?

pretty fast.

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:22:39pm

re: #18 beartiger

What the... How do you brand a student and not go to jail? I must be missing something. Did the student volunteer to be branded (like getting a tattoo) or did the loon actually hold him down and brand him?

I haven't read about this case for some time, but I think the kid cooperated. Exactly how well-informed his consent was is another issue, but I don't think he actually held him down.

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:23:14pm

re: #24 Big Steve

my my (back of hand to forehead)... such language from SFZ

I veer back and forth between prim and foulmouthed.

There is no warning.

Sorry 'bout that.

gamark Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:23:24pm

re: #5 Sergey Romanov

It was such an exhausting process (the investigation, I mean). On one hand this insured the fairness. On the other hand this makes it impractical dealing with crazies this way.

If dealing with crazies takes this much effort, I hate to think what it takes for the district to get rid of the merely incompetent.

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:24:56pm

re: #26 iceweasel

How fast would this guy have been sacked if he'd branded the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Atheist symbol on someone during an evolution class?

pretty fast.

You know, I think the key part at any of the schools I have taught at would have been the BRANDING of a student. You're not even supposed to TOUCH students these days, much less burn symbols onto them.

Although one of my eighth graders did manage to create a huge bruise on his forehead playing around with suction in science class. His mother remained calm.

Sol Berdinowitz Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:25:13pm

My favorite western TV series as a kid...

Youtube Video

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:26:18pm

Now, the article above refers to 'arms' and 'students'. Did he put a cross on more than one kid?

allegro Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:27:13pm

re: #26 iceweasel

How fast would this guy have been sacked if he'd branded the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Atheist symbol on someone during an evolution class?

There's an atheist symbol?

*grumbling cuz I was never told at the atheist meetings*

Four More Tears Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:27:39pm

re: #31 ralphieboy

Just when I thought I had worked Red Dead Redemption out of my system for the day...

lawhawk Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:28:00pm

Panda's Thumb archives are a trove on this guy and the legal cases against him and the district by the family plus the case to get him fired.

Mattand Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:28:20pm

We don’t believe there are any winners or losers in this situation.

Seriously? A teacher with no business teaching science who tortured a child in his classroom is finally, deservedly fired and there's no winners? Talk about false balance.

I forget; why is this guy not in jail?

Finally @Kragar #1: That was my thought when I saw the 4-1 vote as well. One has to wonder if there's a Freshwater-esque fanatic on the school board.

Big Steve Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:28:43pm

re: #25 SanFranciscoZionist

That's...wow...that's an interesting employee problem to have.

The amazing thing was how fast the local police pieced together the real story. The bullet on her desk was found after lunch and she said she heard the shot. But there were several students in the trailer who did not. The police did find witnesses who were jogging near the school that morning before class who thought they heard a shot. The police later got a warrant and found that the bullet matched a 45 that her husband owned and was in a closet in her house(hewas out of town that day) and had recently been fired. The lock-down was a huge deal since it happened a couple of months after 9/11.

Big Steve Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:29:28pm

re: #28 SanFranciscoZionist

I veer back and forth between prim and foulmouthed.

every man's dream woman!

Fenris Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:29:29pm

re: #33 allegro

There's an atheist symbol?

*grumbling cuz I was never told at the atheist meetings*

It looks kinda like an atom.

Amory Blaine Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:29:46pm

re: #33 allegro

There's an atheist symbol?

*grumbling cuz I was never told at the atheist meetings*

Stop leaving early then. We have cake after the meetings :)

iceweasel Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:29:47pm

re: #33 allegro

There's an atheist symbol?

*grumbling cuz I was never told at the atheist meetings*

yeah, I think I ran across it over at PZ's or dawkins. It's kinda lame. But it is officially permitted on military headstones IIRC!

Decatur Deb Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:29:49pm

re: #33 allegro

There's an atheist symbol?

*grumbling cuz I was never told at the atheist meetings*

Yes:

[Link: www.reddit.com...]

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:30:06pm

re: #33 allegro

There's an atheist symbol?

*grumbling cuz I was never told at the atheist meetings*

The U.S. military uses this on tombstones of atheist vets, on request.

I do not know where they got it from, and it looks fairly goofy to me. I think were I an atheist I might opt for a plain stone with only text.

allegro Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:30:44pm

re: #39 fenrisdesigns

It looks kinda like an atom.

Ooo, pretty.

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:31:27pm

re: #39 fenrisdesigns

It looks kinda like an atom.

Now, an actual atom symbol would be cool. It's the little 'A' and the arch that gets to me. Most atheists I know don't define themselves by their atheism.

Slap Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:31:28pm

re: #33 allegro

There's an atheist symbol?

*grumbling cuz I was never told at the atheist meetings*

Isn't this it?

Decatur Deb Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:31:45pm

re: #43 SanFranciscoZionist

Too wordy, Grasshopper.

BongCrodny Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:31:53pm

re: #31 ralphieboy

My favorite western TV series as a kid...

[Video]

I loved that show, too! There was just something about that broken saber, y'know?

Mattand Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:33:43pm

re: #43 SanFranciscoZionist

As an atheist, I want either Batman or a Tyrannosaurs with side-mounted lasers on my tombstone.

IIRC, the great Warners Animation director Friz Freeling has a bunch of Looney Tunes characters he created/worked on on his.

Sol Berdinowitz Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:34:10pm

re: #43 SanFranciscoZionist

The U.S. military uses this on tombstones of atheist vets, on request.

I do not know where they got it from, and it looks fairly goofy to me. I think were I an atheist I might opt for a plain stone with only text.

"I just hope I was right about there being no Hell!"
/

Fenris Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:34:35pm

re: #45 SanFranciscoZionist

Now, an actual atom symbol would be cool. It's the little 'A' and the arch that gets to me. Most atheists I know don't define themselves by their atheism.

According to American Atheists, the broken electron path is supposed to represent that we don't have all the answers.

Slap Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:34:47pm

Better late than never, I suppose.

Who's keeping track of the pool to determine at what point he'll be trumpeted as a martyr fighting off the repression of christian thought?

Decatur Deb Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:34:59pm

re: #49 mattand

As an atheist, I want either Batman or a Tyrannosaurs with side-mounted lasers on my tombstone.

IIRC, the great Warners Animation director Friz Freeling has a bunch of Looney Tunes characters he created/worked on on his.

As an agnostic, my stone should say: "I'll go find out."

gamark Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:35:01pm

re: #20 Amory Blaine

But we can start blaming them though can't we?

Only if a union rep held the kid down while he was being disfigured. But I think it reasonable to blame the union for any part they had in creating a system that takes 2+ years to terminate someone who disfigures a student.

Big Steve Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:35:20pm

re: #33 allegro

There's an atheist symbol?

*grumbling cuz I was never told at the atheist meetings*

Maybe the aethist symbol should be their top quartile IQ points.

Vicious Babushka Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:35:46pm

The snow is really coming down!

Should I sneak out of work now?

allegro Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:35:53pm

Gracious, I seem to be the only one who didn't know my unbelief had an actual symbol of... unbelief. Unbelievable.

Kronocide Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:35:56pm

And how many more creationists are out there in the classrooms of America, teaching pseudo-science and doing their part to ruin America’s future?

These ~~liberals~~ creationists are destroying America from within. The Founding Fathers fought against this tyranny and it's time we fought back and targeted these groups for destruction.

Words mean things.

Obdicut Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:36:55pm

re: #56 Alouette

I think you should pimp-strut out of work now.

Vicious Babushka Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:37:53pm

I did accomplish a solution that I have been working on for a couple weeks.

allegro Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:39:05pm

re: #54 gamark

Only if a union rep held the kid down while he was being disfigured. But I think it reasonable to blame the union for any part they had in creating a system that takes 2+ years to terminate someone who disfigures a student.

Am I wrong or was this a teacher at a private Christian school? If so, he would most likely be there under contract so perhaps that was what made it so costly (I think the price tag was something like $900,000 in legal fees) to get rid of him.

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:39:07pm

re: #57 allegro

Gracious, I seem to be the only one who didn't know my unbelief had an actual symbol of... unbelief. Unbelievable.

Were you feeling the lack of one? Is your life now complete?

BongCrodny Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:39:17pm

re: #50 ralphieboy

"I just hope I was right about there being no Hell!"
/

If God and Fred Phelps are on the same side, I'm not so certain Hell would be the wrong place for me.

Jimmah Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:39:37pm

Lose his job? This nutcase should have gone to jail. Where I come from, branding people with hot irons is considered to be a very serious assault.

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:39:56pm

re: #61 allegro

Am I wrong or was this a teacher at a private Christian school? If so, he would most likely be there under contract so perhaps that was what made it so costly (I think the price tag was something like $900,000 in legal fees) to get rid of him.

No, public. Had it been private, the posting of the Ten Commandments wouldn't have been such an issue.

allegro Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:40:14pm

re: #62 SanFranciscoZionist

Were you feeling the lack of one? Is your life now complete?

Oh my yes. I feel so very included now. Thank you.

Kragar Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:40:21pm

re: #59 Obdicut

I think you should pimp-strut out of work now.

Leave a post it on your desk that says "If I'm not back in 15 minutes, read this again."

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:40:37pm

re: #66 allegro

Oh my yes. I feel so very included now. Thank you.

Now, the question is, does Elsa Peretti do a version of it in silver?

Four More Tears Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:41:19pm

re: #64 Jimmah

Lose his job? This nutcase should have gone to jail. Where I come from, branding people with hot irons is considered to be a very serious assault.

Actually, he branded him with science...

Jadespring Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:42:01pm

Is it to early in the thread to go right OT? I have something amusing to share. Well I find it amusing anyways..

allegro Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:42:03pm

re: #68 SanFranciscoZionist

Now, the question is, does Elsa Peretti do a version of it in silver?

ooo, with a ruby studded A... love that!

iceweasel Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:42:06pm

re: #69 JasonA

Actually, he branded him with science...

Literal laugh out loud. Brilliant!

Kragar Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:42:11pm

re: #69 JasonA

Actually, he branded him with science...

Thank god he forgot the real lyrics.

Decatur Deb Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:42:34pm

re: #68 SanFranciscoZionist

Now, the question is, does Elsa Peretti do a version of it in silver?

And an atheist chaplain would have it for collar insignia in subdued brass.

gamark Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:43:07pm

re: #61 allegro
Don't think it was private. Otherwise, why involve the state? I found this:

[Link: creationfacts.synthasite.com...]

Oct, 30 (Day 23)
Witness called on behalf of Teacher John Freshwater.
...
44. Patricia Dice - Union Rep. since 1994

Kronocide Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:43:07pm

'She branded me with Science!'

Howard Jones? No? Sorry.

Jimmah Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:43:09pm

re: #72 iceweasel

Literal laugh out loud. Brilliant!

Me too...LOL

Gus Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:43:35pm

This is more than stuff about evolution. Believe in a soul is not very much different than believing in creationism.

Four More Tears Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:43:42pm

Thank yew, thank yew. *bows*

iceweasel Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:44:23pm

re: #77 Jimmah

Me too...LOL

No one will ever believe we're in the same room now. :)

Four More Tears Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:45:23pm

re: #78 Gus 802

This is more than stuff about evolution. Believe in a soul is not very much different than believing in creationism.

I'd like to disagree. Creationism involves the dismissal of real and tested evidence. Believing in a soul, to me, is simply believing in something that does not exist.

Jimmah Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:45:32pm

re: #80 iceweasel

No one will ever believe we're in the same room now. :)

My weird penchant for posting from the bathroom now lies exposed for all to see/

Reginald Perrin Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:46:16pm

re: #80 iceweasel

No one will ever believe we're in the same room now. :)

There are some who don't believe you are two different people.

iceweasel Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:46:44pm

re: #82 Jimmah

My weird penchant for posting from the bathroom now lies exposed for all to see/

That's not the only thing that will be exposed for all to see if you're not more careful! /

Four More Tears Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:47:32pm

re: #84 iceweasel

That's not the only thing that will be exposed for all to see if you're not more careful! /

Huh? Is LGF going to have Facetime soon?

zora Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:47:54pm

re: #63 BongCrodny

If God and Fred Phelps are on the same side, I'm not so certain Hell would be the wrong place for me.

phelps is batshit insane. i'm sure he and his family keep god's spam folder full.

Gus Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:48:09pm

re: #81 JasonA

I'd like to disagree. Creationism involves the dismissal of real and tested evidence. Believing in a soul, to me, is simply believing in something that does not exist.

Both involves believing in something that doesn't exist. I just think it's funny that people will say "God" didn't "create" man yet believe that "He" controls their lives and controls their "souls" in some fictional after life. And that's just the short version.

Jimmah Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:48:33pm

re: #83 Reginald Perrin

There are some who don't believe you are two different people.

lol. I heard that the losers on the diary of the diddies think that ice, myself, you, and Charles are all the same person.

Obdicut Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:49:00pm

re: #87 Gus 802

The latter belief is a hell of a lot less harmful to civil society, though.

Obdicut Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:50:00pm

re: #88 Jimmah

I think each of you're all the Queen of England who is, after all, a reptile.

Gus Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:50:33pm

re: #89 Obdicut

The latter belief is a hell of a lot less harmful to civil society, though.

Yes and no. Not if you consider how much easier it is to send young men off into a battlefield if they think even if they die they'll live happily ever after in the "afterlife".

Reginald Perrin Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:51:43pm

re: #88 Jimmah

lol. I heard that the losers on the diary of the diddies think that ice, myself, you, and Charles are all the same person.

Didn't they know that CJ didn't get to were he is today by being Reggie.

I bet that one goes over most heads.

Kronocide Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:51:58pm

The leaders of the GOP are dead to me.

That's not violent, it's factual. They're a bunch of zombies!

Decatur Deb Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:52:00pm

BBL again.

Gus Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:52:30pm

Anywho. I don't expect to find much open discussion about that here anyway.

Four More Tears Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:52:55pm

re: #93 BigPapa

The leaders of the GOP are dead to me.

That's not violent, it's factual. They're a bunch of zombies!

The Obstructing Dead. They don't attack the living, just keep them from actually going anywhere...

BongCrodny Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:53:25pm

I'm more of an agnostic than an atheist, with the belief that if there's a God, he's probably a scientist.

Some of the looks I've gotten from people when I've said that, you'd think I said that I legitimately believed in the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Here's a song I like on the subject from Robbie Fulks, a country-singin' libertarian atheist. It's no surprise to me that with stuff like this he doesn't get played on traditional country stations. :-)

Youtube Video

wrenchwench Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:53:39pm

re: #95 Gus 802

Anywho. I don't expect to find much open discussion about that here anyway.

More likely here than most places....

Obdicut Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:53:45pm

re: #91 Gus 802

Sure, but creationism involves belief in the afterlife plus screwed up beliefs about this world. So, no matter what is wrong in 'normal' religion, creationism is malarky piled on top of those wrongs.

100

Charles Johnson Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:53:50pm

By the way, if you aren't following Steve Martin on Twitter (@SteveMartinToGo) you're missing teh funny.

101

Four More Tears Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:54:21pm

re: #95 Gus 802

Anywho. I don't expect to find much open discussion about that here anyway.

I guess I just see the "there is no soul" debate as a losing battle. There's no evidence that contradicts the belief. Creationism is a whole different thing to me in that I can say "no, this is what happened."

102

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:55:04pm

re: #91 Gus 802

_{Pssst! Gus, I found something for ya. Don't tell anyone I passed it to you, okay.}

103

Jimmah Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:55:29pm

re: #92 Reginald Perrin

Didn't they know that CJ didn't get to were he is today by being Reggie.

I bet that one goes over most heads.

Heh. Not mine :)

Youtube Video

104

What, me worry? Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:56:09pm

re: #100 Charles

By the way, if you aren't following Steve Martin on Twitter (@SteveMartinToGo) you're missing teh funny.

OMG the man is a scream. I read him all the time.

105

Obdicut Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:56:58pm

Interestingly, studies on grieving among parents hasn't shown any actual difference between those who were religious and those who weren't, in terms of the effect of their grief, the disruption to their life, the length of it, etc. The real mediator was the amount of friends and other family they had, and whether or not they worked. I think the grief and shock of losing a child is just too intense for a belief in the afterlife to provide any lasting solace.

I have a lot of dead friends. I miss them, and think about them. Imagining them still existing but unreachable to me would be kind of more painful than knowing they're gone.

106

iceweasel Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:57:07pm

re: #95 Gus 802

Anywho. I don't expect to find much open discussion about that here anyway.

I'm not convinced productive discussion about that ever takes place publicly. :(

107

Obdicut Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:58:12pm

Crap, now I'm all sad. Thanks a lot, Gus!

108

wrenchwench Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:59:01pm

re: #97 BongCrodny

I like this one much better (...speaking of Steve Martin....)

Youtube Video

109

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:59:29pm

"Hopefully we can put this behind us, the community can begin to come together again and relationships can heal and we can move forward."

This would suggest that the Mount Vernon community was divided on this issue, possibly in a harsh way. WTF?

Things like this cause me to check several sources, several calendars and such, because sometimes I can't believe we actually live in the 21st century.

110

William Barnett-Lewis Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:59:42pm

re: #43 SanFranciscoZionist

The U.S. military uses this on tombstones of atheist vets, on request.

I do not know where they got it from, and it looks fairly goofy to me. I think were I an atheist I might opt for a plain stone with only text.

Here's the full list of symbols:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

111

Kragar Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:00:17pm

re: #107 Obdicut

Crap, now I'm all sad. Thanks a lot, Gus!

/

Here you go.

Youtube Video

112

What, me worry? Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:01:42pm

re: #78 Gus 802

This is more than stuff about evolution. Believe in a soul is not very much different than believing in creationism.

The question is not, "Does a soul exist?"'

The question is, "Does Rush, Beck, Newt, Palin, etc. possess one?"

Well, for me anyway.

113

Slap Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:02:01pm

re: #79 JasonA

Thank yew, thank yew. *bows*

Hey --

Who are you calling a yew?

114

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:02:02pm

re: #111 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Here you go.

[Video]

Just great. Now I'm sad.

115

dmon Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:02:30pm

Wow....... the firing took forever..... maybe its just teachers, im a union firefighter and weve had 3 fired in the last few months...the process didnt take real long......... I guess the difference is that here, they fire you, then you appeal to get your job back. Our union made sure their rights were protected, but they dont get much sympathy from the rank and file.......... we were just as happy to get rid of them as the city was.

116

Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:02:36pm

It was not an easy decision? What made it hard?

117

JRCMYP Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:02:57pm

re: #27 SanFranciscoZionist

I haven't read about this case for some time, but I think the kid cooperated. Exactly how well-informed his consent was is another issue, but I don't think he actually held him down.

I'm sure "cooperation" in this sense means having no freaking clue what might happen to him (or her, as the case may be).

118

What, me worry? Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:03:15pm

Speaking of Zombies, I posted this on the pages awhile back.

Image: brains3.gif

119

Jimmah Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:03:57pm

re: #87 Gus 802

Both involves believing in something that doesn't exist. I just think it's funny that people will say "God" didn't "create" man yet believe that "He" controls their lives and controls their "souls" in some fictional after life. And that's just the short version.

Agreed. We were talking about this just this morning while watching this :

Youtube Video

(Ice would have posted it to you but her laptop has just crashed)

120

Big Steve Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:04:05pm

re: #112 marjoriemoon

The question is not, "Does a soul exist?"'

The question is, "Does Rush, Beck, Newt, Palin, etc. possess one?"

Well, for me anyway.

To quote Woody Allen...."not only is there no God, but try finding a plumber on a Sunday"

121

Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:04:45pm

re: #27 SanFranciscoZionist

I haven't read about this case for some time, but I think the kid cooperated. Exactly how well-informed his consent was is another issue, but I don't think he actually held him down.

Even if the kid cooperated, you can't get a tattoo before 18 without parental consent, so I doubt you could agree to be branded before 18.

122

What, me worry? Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:06:01pm

re: #121 EmmmieG

Even if the kid cooperated, you can't get a tattoo before 18 without parental consent, so I doubt you could agree to be branded before 18.

And we used to be afraid of strangers with candy?!

123

BongCrodny Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:07:22pm

re: #108 wrenchwench

I like this one much better (...speaking of Steve Martin...)

[Video]

Much better. And a hell of a lot less depressing. :-)

124

Kragar Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:07:24pm

re: #122 marjoriemoon

And we used to be afraid of strangers with candy?!

Hey, who doesn't like a free van ride?

125

Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:08:35pm

re: #122 marjoriemoon

And we used to be afraid of strangers with candy?!

We should be afraid of the candy, according to the people in charge of these things.

Anyway, time to teach some kids the difference between physical properties and chemical properties. Going to use food. Mmmmm.

126

Big Steve Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:08:37pm

by the way what ever happened to LudwigVanQuixote. Haven't seen him post recently

127

Alexzander Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:10:02pm

Has anyone already mentioned this yet:

"You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the LORD.”
Leviticus 19:28 — New American Standard

128

Jadespring Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:10:08pm

Arugula, arugula, arugula. What's up with arugula these days?

Over the past month I've heard murmurings here and there about the lack of arugula in my area. I talked with a couple of restaurant owners and they had a hard time sourcing fresh arugula. Weird I though, arugula is really easy to grow. I just stick it in the ground and it grow like a weed.

So anyways I just came back from a meeting with a group run out of the country ag department whose purpose is to develop the local food market. I'm still trying to figure out exactly what to do business wise.

Well it ends up there is a shortage of fresh arugula. They don't have anyone listed who grows it and restaurants want it as well as people.
I found out why too. South of me is field crop country with canola being one of the main crops. With canola you get flea beetles, the same type that attack brasccias (broccoli etc) and mustard family plants like arugula.
That why we don't see much of any of these at local farmers markets. They're a pain to grow without a lot of work.

There's no canola around me and I'm buffered by several lakes. I haven't yet had a problem with broccoli, it grows great. I never even realized flea beetles were even an issue with these plants.

Long story short it's looking like I may have found an completely untapped market that by chance of location I can fill.

Never thought I would ever consider becoming an arugula farmer....

129

Kragar Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:10:15pm

re: #114 Slumbering Behemoth

Just great. Now I'm sad.

Well, here you go then

Youtube Video

130

What, me worry? Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:11:16pm

re: #125 EmmmieG

We should be afraid of the candy, according to the people in charge of these things.

Anyway, time to teach some kids the difference between physical properties and chemical properties. Going to use food. Mmmm.

It just struck me very silly. My mother used to warn me about strangers brandishing treats, not teachers with irons....

If you told this story to anyone without the proof, they'd go, "No way!!"

131

zora Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:11:24pm

re: #126 Big Steve

by the way what ever happened to LudwigVanQuixote. Haven't seen him post recently

i was wondering the same.

132

lawhawk Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:11:40pm

re: #126 Big Steve

He got a time out IIRC.

133

wrenchwench Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:13:21pm

re: #128 Jadespring

That's great!

134

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:15:20pm

re: #95 Gus 802

Anywho. I don't expect to find much open discussion about that here anyway.

What would you like to discuss?

135

webevintage Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:15:29pm

How could it be a hard decision (i do get it could be a lengthy process) to fire a teacher who branded anyone in the classroom?

I wonder if it would have been easier if he was branding them with a pentagram or a Darwin Fish?
sheesh.....

136

avanti Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:15:38pm

Crazy Pam is holding her "Support Wal Mart, stop the mega mosque" rally tomorrow in NYC, the same day as the memorial service in Tucson. Two rallies, one about hate, the other love.

137

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:15:44pm

re: #129 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Are you trying to kill me?

138

CuriousLurker Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:17:11pm

WTF??

CNN's Erickson: In Wake Of Attempted Murder Of Jewish Politician, It's Important To Stress "A Saving Faith In Jesus Christ"

CNN's Erick Erickson is upset with what people aren't saying about the attempted assassination of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords:

Through it all though, well meaning people on both sides of the ideological and partisan divide are not talking about the one thing that should be talked about — a saving faith in Jesus Christ.

For the record: Rep. Giffords is Jewish, so "a saving faith in Jesus Christ" might not be "the one thing that should be talked about."

139

Jimmah Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:17:32pm

Bit of Tackhead :

Youtube Video

BBL

140

Kragar Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:17:51pm

re: #137 Slumbering Behemoth

Are you trying to kill me?

Maybe...

Youtube Video

141

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:17:54pm

re: #136 avanti

Crazy Pam is holding her "Support Wal Mart, stop the mega mosque" rally tomorrow in NYC, the same day as the memorial service in Tucson. Two rallies, one about hate, the other love.

I'm clueless here. What does Wal Mart have to do with the 'mega mosque'?

142

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:20:12pm

re: #117 JRCMYP

I'm sure "cooperation" in this sense means having no freaking clue what might happen to him (or her, as the case may be).

Or, just figuring it would be cool. Kids will volunteer to get tased.

143

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:21:02pm

re: #121 EmmmieG

Even if the kid cooperated, you can't get a tattoo before 18 without parental consent, so I doubt you could agree to be branded before 18.

It's simply not an allowable thing to do, regardless. I do think it would have been a different and worse case if he'd held down a resisting child and branded him, though.

144

Reginald Perrin Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:21:09pm

re: #103 Jimmah

Heh. Not mine :)

[Video]

I knew you would get it, this is a make work project for the intellectual featherweights down at Troll Central.

I'm putting together something hilarious for later this year.
Your screen beret parody was incredible and I was wondering if I may make use of that classic.?
There are a couple ideas that I would like bounce off you wise people, this is Reggie's final adventure and it has got to be written perfectly.

145

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:21:27pm

re: #140 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I had you figured all wrong. You're not trying to kill me, you're trying to drive me mad.

/too late, btw

146

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:22:12pm

Here's just one of the examples of Freshwater's lies:

[Link: pandasthumb.org...]

re: #10 Big Steve

PT's coverage of the cases: [Link: pandasthumb.org...]

About some of Freshwater's lies see e.g. [Link: www.mountvernonnews.com...]

Also be sure to look up the full list of F's misdeeds, burning a cross was just a minor matter.

About the children lying: pp.4ff [Link: www.mountvernonnews.com...]

I misremembered that it was parents who told the children to lie and for this I apologize. Apparently it was Freshwater's attorney who influenced and directed the children.

147

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:22:49pm

re: #127 Alexzander

Has anyone already mentioned this yet:

Overriden by the New Testament, where Paul tells his followers to get all the tats they want, as long as they're not, you know, gay.

(Sarc, but most Christian groups disregard nearly all of the non-sexual prohibitions of the Torah, outside of the Ten Commandments.)

148

avanti Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:25:14pm

re: #141 Slumbering Behemoth

I'm clueless here. What does Wal Mart have to do with the 'mega mosque'?

She's supporting the building of a Wal mart in NYC, because Wal Mart is a "retailer of peace" or something.

149

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:26:27pm

re: #141 Slumbering Behemoth

I'm clueless here. What does Wal Mart have to do with the 'mega mosque'?

To the extent that I am able to understand it, because God knows, it does not make a whole lot of sense, Wal-Mart is trying to move businesses into NYC, and there's been some push-back from the residents. Pam is now allied with Wal-Mart because, I think, liberals, are supposed to hate Wal-Mart, and therefore there should be a Wal-Mart rather than a mosque a couple of blocks from Ground Zero.

She has a logo for the whole thing and everything.

More info here.

150

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:26:50pm

re: #148 avanti

Oh. So no connection between the two, just that Pam is being blender-brained as usual. Thanks.

151

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:29:21pm

re: #149 SanFranciscoZionist

To the extent that I am able to understand it, because God knows, it does not make a whole lot of sense, Wal-Mart is trying to move businesses into NYC, and there's been some push-back from the residents. Pam is now allied with Wal-Mart because, I think, liberals, are supposed to hate Wal-Mart, and therefore there should be a Wal-Mart rather than a mosque a couple of blocks from Ground Zero.

She has a logo for the whole thing and everything.

More info here.

I should clarify that when I say Pam is 'allied' with Wal-Mart, I mean in her own mind. As far as I know, Wal-Mart has not embraced her, nor her batty thing with the happy face wearing a chador or whatever that is. I do not care for how Wal-Mart does business, nor do I like their behavior toward their employees, however I do not want to unjustly accuse them of getting into bed with Pam Geller.

152

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:30:31pm

re: #149 SanFranciscoZionist

From the link:

Geller, obviously, supports Wal-Mart, because liberals dislike Wal-Mart, and liberals love Muslims, and Muslims hate America, and so therefore Wal-Mart is good and loves America.

The beautiful thing about her little flier is how confusing and incoherent it is. It is anti-mosque, and pro-Wal-Mart, but the Wal-Mart happy face is wearing a veil, and there is an Islamic crescent in place of the style guide-confounding hyphen?

Oh brother. He does seem to have her brand of 'thinking' pegged.

153

avanti Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:30:36pm

re: #149 SanFranciscoZionist

To the extent that I am able to understand it, because God knows, it does not make a whole lot of sense, Wal-Mart is trying to move businesses into NYC, and there's been some push-back from the residents. Pam is now allied with Wal-Mart because, I think, liberals, are supposed to hate Wal-Mart, and therefore there should be a Wal-Mart rather than a mosque a couple of blocks from Ground Zero.

She has a logo for the whole thing and everything.

More info here.

Thanks for that link, it's Onion quality stuff.

"Geller, obviously, supports Wal-Mart, because liberals dislike Wal-Mart, and liberals love Muslims, and Muslims hate America, and so therefore Wal-Mart is good and loves America."

154

Prononymous, rogue demon hunter Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:30:45pm

re: #147 SanFranciscoZionist

Overriden by the New Testament, where Paul tells his followers to get all the tats they want, as long as they're not, you know, gay.

(Sarc, but most Christian groups disregard nearly all of the non-sexual prohibitions of the Torah, outside of the Ten Commandments.)

Everything I didn't already want to obey is metaphor. /

155

Alexzander Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:33:37pm

re: #147 SanFranciscoZionist

Maybe sarc but still very interesting.

156

William Barnett-Lewis Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:35:16pm

re: #147 SanFranciscoZionist

Overriden by the New Testament, where Paul tells his followers to get all the tats they want, as long as they're not, you know, gay.

(Sarc, but most Christian groups disregard nearly all of the non-sexual prohibitions of the Torah, outside of the Ten Commandments.)

I always get annoyed by those who want to play cafeteria with the list. Either they apply or they don't. Christianity explicitly says that there is not a need to become Jewish to believe and that the rules for food do not apply. They implication is that the rest do not as well.

This was a major bone of contention in the first 200 years of Christianity.

157

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:37:44pm

re: #156 wlewisiii

I always get annoyed by those who want to play cafeteria with the list. Either they apply or they don't. Christianity explicitly says that there is not a need to become Jewish to believe and that the rules for food do not apply. They implication is that the rest do not as well.

This was a major bone of contention in the first 200 years of Christianity.

Religion is not supposed to be rational, so it's for the believers to decide on the approach. That said, there is a method to the madness, with some of the OT rules being "for the Jews only", others merely ritualistic, yet others indicating the inherent immorality of some acts (and since morality doesn't change, this is applicable even now). Or so the apologetic goes.

158

CuriousLurker Tue, Jan 11, 2011 1:39:32pm

re: #148 avanti

re: #149 SanFranciscoZionist

O_o

159

Summer Seale Tue, Jan 11, 2011 2:02:22pm

I'm kind of amazed that the "teacher" wasn't thrown in jail the whole time for assault and battery at the very least, as well as child abuse?

It was a difficult decision? Pardon my French but what the fuck is the board smoking? He doesn't just deserve to lose his job, and take two frigging long years for that decision, he deserves to be in a fucking JAIL! Last I heard, beating up kids in a classroom and branding them was a first class federal offense.

What the hell is the government doing about that, and why is this guy not in jail for extreme child abuse?

160

What, me worry? Tue, Jan 11, 2011 2:06:00pm

re: #138 CuriousLurker

It must be great to be so self-important and right all the time :(

161

CuriousLurker Tue, Jan 11, 2011 2:12:07pm

re: #160 marjoriemoon

It must be great to be so self-important and right all the time :(

I know, right? *sigh*

162

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 11, 2011 2:14:01pm

re: #138 CuriousLurker

WTF??

For the record: Rep. Giffords is Jewish, so "a saving faith in Jesus Christ" might not be "the one thing that should be talked about."

Oh, screw him.

163

Prononymous, rogue demon hunter Tue, Jan 11, 2011 2:32:58pm

re: #162 SanFranciscoZionist

Seriously. I doubt he would really want to discuss the fact that she survived a gunshot to the head without the power of Jesus. He's just using it as a chance to preach.

164

boxhead Tue, Jan 11, 2011 2:48:47pm

re: #39 fenrisdesigns

It looks kinda like an atom.

I think Dr Manhattan's symbol would be a good one.

165

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Jan 11, 2011 4:14:50pm

A Bishop in the Church of St. Bastard.

166

wheat-dogghazi Wed, Jan 12, 2011 8:13:06am

re: #27 SanFranciscoZionist

As I remember it, Freshwater asked students if they wanted to feel the coil's sparks. The boy in question agreed, and F. held the boy's arm down on the desk while he zapped him. I don't think the kid could have reflexively pulled his arm away very easily.

I taught physics for a long time, and used the exact same device F. had in my classes. The manufacturer has warnings about the sparks (20,000 - 50,000 volts of RF) causing bodily damage (skin burns, for one). I cannot believe any responsible teacher could find it acceptable to use one to "tattoo" a student. Idiot.

But, we need to be clear, F. was not terminated for the Tesla zapping incident. He was sacked for his proselytizing in and out of class during school, and for insubordination. Under his contract, he was entitled to an administrative hearing, which dragged on for 2 years.

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