Tucson Shooting Victim Apologizes to Tea Party Leader for Threat

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Tucson shooting victim Eric Fuller apologized today for his threat to Tea Party leader Trent Humphries.

Tucson, Arizona (CNN) — Arizona shooting victim James Eric Fuller sent his apologies Monday for telling a Tea Party leader, “you are dead.”

Dorothy DeRuyter, a companion of Fuller’s, provided CNN with a statement.

“I would like to tender my sincerest apologies to Mr. (Trent) Humphries for my misplaced outrage on Saturday at the St. Odelia’s town meeting,” Fuller said in the statement. “It was not in the spirit of our allegiance and warm feelings to each other as citizens of our great country.”

Fuller, 63, was involuntarily committed to a county mental health facility after he photographed Tucson Tea Party founder Humphries and said, “You are dead” when Humphries began speaking at the event.

Fuller “is apologetic and very sad” about his outburst, DeRuyter said. “He wishes he could go back and do things differently,” she said.

Humphries said Fuller’s comment came when the town hall discussion turned to gun control.

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555 comments
1 Soap_Man  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:01:35pm

Good on him.

2 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:01:54pm

smart move

3 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:02:18pm

Note to Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck Rush Limbaugh et all: THIS IS HOW YOU F***ING APOLOGIZE!

4 jaunte  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:03:21pm

Good for him.

5 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:03:34pm

Now the smearing will recommence.

Doesn't matter what he does.

6 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:04:21pm

Glad to hear it.

7 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:05:02pm

re: #3 jamesfirecat

Note to Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck Rush Limbaugh et all: THIS IS HOW YOU F***ING APOLOGIZE!

Yes, but you only have to apologize if you did something wrong.

And Palin, Beck, Limbaugh et al have never done anything wrong, in their own minds.

8 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:05:23pm

What a bassackwards world we live in.

But the judge wouldn't let him out if he didn't, I'll bet.

"Oh what a brave new world that has such people as these" IIRC.

9 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:07:32pm

re: #8 wlewisiii

What a bassackwards world we live in.

But the judge wouldn't let him out if he didn't, I'll bet.

"Oh what a brave new world that has such people as thesein't" IIRC.

Closer than I deserve to be.

10 Kragar  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:08:00pm

More than we'll ever hear from a Bagger.

11 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:09:38pm

re: #8 wlewisiii

What a bassackwards world we live in.

But the judge wouldn't let him out if he didn't, I'll bet.

"Oh what a brave new world that has such people as these" IIRC.

He did something wrong, and he apologized, which is the right way to handle such a situation.

The fact that Humphries will never apologize for some of the stuff he said does not change that.

12 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:09:49pm

Yeah and the wingnuts will think this was part of a larger part. Right now I'm sure some of them are thinking that this was planned all along. Or something.

13 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:10:39pm

re: #12 Gus 802

Yeah and the wingnuts will think this was part plan of a larger part. Right now I'm sure some of them are thinking that this was planned all along. Or something.

"Plan" not "part".

14 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:11:01pm

re: #5 Obdicut

Now the smearing will recommence.

Doesn't matter what he does.

yup...nope
ugly times, but I think convoluting reality is the most amazing aspect...not that it's a new thing, but it's so widespread and even the most previously sane people are falling off the rails....amazing

15 bluecheese  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:11:06pm

So does this mean that Boehner is going to do the same, for saying

“He may be a dead man. He can’t go home to the west side of Cincinnati. The Catholics will run him out of town.”

about Steve Driehaus?

16 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:12:57pm

I wonder how his psych eval played into this little step forward...apologize or else?

17 jaunte  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:13:35pm

re: #16 albusteve

Seems like the sane thing to do.

18 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:14:54pm

re: #16 albusteve

I wonder how his psych eval played into this little step forward...apologize or else?

I don't know if that's something they do. If he expressed remorse once they got him calmed down some, the docs might have encouraged him to do it, though.

19 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:15:19pm

re: #8 wlewisiii

What a bassackwards world we live in.

But the judge wouldn't let him out if he didn't, I'll bet.

"Oh what a brave new world that has such people as these" IIRC.

As long as he stuck by a death threat, he was going to be held in custody. After what had happened, he was not going to be set free unless he showed himself to not a be threat.

20 researchok  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:17:38pm

re: #18 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know if that's something they do. If he expressed remorse once they got him calmed down some, the docs might have encouraged him to do it, though.

He wants out. He won't get released if the threats continue, either real or implied.

It was the smart thing to do and it shows the docs where his head is at. A refusal to apologize for a death threat will not work in his favor.

21 JRCMYP  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:18:43pm

I don't think he had to apologize. I think he wanted to apologize. That man went through some sick trauma. I think he should stay away from town meetings for awhile.

22 Amory Blaine  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:19:33pm

I don't know how composed I would be after being shot. Especially toward such a man as Humphries.

23 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:19:35pm

re: #18 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know if that's something they do. If he expressed remorse once they got him calmed down some, the docs might have encouraged him to do it, though.

I express remorse every time I'm admitted to a hospital...the entire thing seems a bit trumped up to me...no priors, no record and he's hauled off to a hospital?...seems like he'd be socked with an assault charge and be done with it....just because he apologizes, doesn't mean he's not a threat, or is he?

24 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:20:21pm

re: #21 JRCMYP

I don't think he had to apologize. I think he wanted to apologize. That man went through some sick trauma. I think he should stay away from town meetings for awhile.

I'd like to think that he really was just wrought up, and that this is uncharacteristic, but I don't know the man.

Either way, he doesn't seem to be raving out of his head, which is a good first step.

25 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:21:32pm

re: #24 SanFranciscoZionist

I'd like to think that he really was just wrought up, and that this is uncharacteristic, but I don't know the man.

Either way, he doesn't seem to be raving out of his head, which is a good first step.

no, he's not crazy, he's pissed off and likely in some mild shock

26 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:21:43pm

What's up with David Frum's left eye?

It seems to be getting worse the more he tries to make excuses for the GOP.

27 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:22:51pm

re: #23 albusteve

I express remorse every time I'm admitted to a hospital...the entire thing seems a bit trumped up to me...no priors, no record and he's hauled off to a hospital?...seems like he'd be socked with an assault charge and be done with it...just because he apologizes, doesn't mean he's not a threat, or is he?

No, presumably if he still wants to kill Humphries, he could apologize, get out and do so...and then we'd be having another conversation about gun rights, and the problem of identifying people who are crazy enough to kill in advance of their actually doing so.

I suspect they psych-warded him because the whole situation is so high profile, and because he'd been through recent trauma. No harm making sure, before we end up with a Hatfield-McCoy situation in Pima County.

28 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:24:06pm

re: #26 Charles

What's up with David Frum's left eye?

It seems to be getting worse the more he tries to make excuses for the GOP.

Excessive cognitive dissonance added on top of repressed revulsion at what has become of his party could probably give a guy an ulcer....

29 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:24:22pm

Better late than never...
Mauritanian Islamic leaders ban genital mutilation
Beer and tube tops soon to follow.

30 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:24:30pm

re: #26 Charles

What's up with David Frum's left eye?

It seems to be getting worse the more he tries to make excuses for the GOP.

What do you mean?

31 mr.fusion  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:25:43pm

re: #26 Charles

What's up with David Frum's left eye?

It seems to be getting worse the more he tries to make excuses for the GOP.

Haha! I'm a little behind in that interview and looked up just as he was talking.

I think he's winking at me (no starbursts yet)

32 BishopX  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:25:45pm

re: #21 JRCMYP

I think he should go to more of these things, so long as he can keep himself reasonably under control. It takes a special kind of person to stand face to face with a rampage survivor and say that there is nothing we a as society can do about untreated mentally disturbed individual buying guns and high-capacity magazines. I frankly think there a special place in hell reserved for that special kind of person.

33 Amory Blaine  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:26:20pm

re: #26 Charles

What's up with David Frum's left eye?

It seems to be getting worse the more he tries to make excuses for the GOP.

He could sit next to Ron Christie on a panel./

34 Amory Blaine  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:27:42pm

Is it on now? I don't have cable.

35 Reginald Perrin  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:27:58pm

Maybe his mother, Barbara Frum, who was a respected Canadian news anchor, reaches out from the great beyond to poke him in the eye every time he does something stupid.

36 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:28:53pm

re: #32 BishopX

I think he should go to more of these things, so long as he can keep himself reasonably under control. It takes a special kind of person to stand face to face with a rampage survivor and say that there is nothing we a as society can do about untreated mentally disturbed individual buying guns and high-capacity magazines. I frankly think there a special place in hell reserved for that special kind of person.

That's not what Trent Humphries said. He said that we should wait before having that conversation. The changes needed to do what you propose (assuming they are feasible) will require a act of Congress. Such things need to be worked out deliberately.

37 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:29:53pm

I don't know, but the Twitter feed that popped up when I Googled Frum indicates that Charles isn't the only one noticing this.

I'm not judging but David Frum's eye that blinks at a different time than his other eye kinda freaks me out.

David Frum is kinda freaking me out right now

WTF is wrong with David Frum's left eye? Someone at MSNBC please get him some eyedrops.

38 Kragar  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:30:02pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

Better late than never...
Mauritanian Islamic leaders ban genital mutilation
Beer and tube tops soon to follow.

Obviously, its a cunning plan to lull people into a false sense of security.

39 researchok  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:30:04pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

Better late than never...
Mauritanian Islamic leaders ban genital mutilation
Beer and tube tops soon to follow.

Makes for good PR.

According to the UN, victims of FGM number are between 100 to 140 million women- many in countries that have an FGM ban on the books.

The problem is a whole lot bigger than Mauritania.

40 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:30:26pm

re: #36 Dark_Falcon

That's not what Trent Humphries said. He said that we should wait before having that conversation. The changes needed to do what you propose (assuming they are feasible) will require a act of Congress. Such things need to be worked out deliberately.

Dark how do we expect congress to start acting on this if we don't start having a discussion about it and realize how important the issue is and what ideas we want congress to enact when they do pass a law?

41 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:32:35pm

David Frum's eye normally twitch like that? I'm concerned for dude.

42 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:35:40pm

re: #40 jamesfirecat

Dark how do we expect congress to start acting on this if we don't start having a discussion about it and realize how important the issue is and what ideas we want congress to enact when they do pass a law?

He was essentially saying "Wait till we have time to heal." At most, he didn't want to get put on the spot. The decision as to what legislation to argue for is a political one, and he didn't want to have that discussion just yet. For him to try to articulate a position would have been to walk into a minefield.

43 theheat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:36:23pm

re: #26 Charles

His conscience is making a run for it out the only available tear duct.

44 justaminute  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:37:07pm

re: #26 Charles

My mom had that problem. She went to the eye institute for treatment all the time but it never disappeared. One year later she had a stroke, but I am sure he's smart enough to stay on top of it.

45 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:39:58pm

re: #15 bluecheese

So does this mean that Boehner is going to do the same, for saying

about Steve Driehaus?

Of course not. Boehner was speaking metaphorically, not that he'd mind if something happened to Little Stevie. Now that Little Stevie has been brought back home without his supper by the voters, Boehner probably doesn't give a sh**. Driehaus' seat is safely back in the hands of Republican hack Steve Chabot, who held the seat for 14 amazingly unproductive years before losing to Driehaus in 2008. Personally, I get a big laugh out of all these "good Catholics" (Boehner, Driehaus, and Chabot) squabbling and claiming to know how all Catholics will react on a given issue.

What cost Driehaus his seat was his failure to maintain a balancing act. As a hack Democrat with nary an idea of his own save to get re-elected, he made the mistake (?) of following Party orders and voted for the HRC bill, which is very unpopular in his district. Why is it unpopular in his district? Because the electorate here (I live in the district) is, by and large, a bunch of mouth-breathers who believe any garbage the local Republican Party and its publishing wing, the Cincinnati Enquirer, say. Little Stevie thought that as a "good Catholic" in a heavily Catholic district, he could hide behind his religion when an issue was unpopular with the voters but popular with the Party leadership. Putz. Now we get the equally hackish Chabot back. Just when I thought I'd never have to see that terrible comb-over again...

46 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:40:21pm

re: #42 Dark_Falcon

He was essentially saying "Wait till we have time to heal." At most, he didn't want to get put on the spot. The decision as to what legislation to argue for is a political one, and he didn't want to have that discussion just yet. For him to try to articulate a position would have been to walk into a minefield.

Maybe its the radical in me but sometimes "wait till we have time to heal" rings in my ears the same as "wait till we have time to forget"

Because you know what it may be crass to "never waste a crisis"

But Crisises (Crisisi?) only happen because something went horribly wrong somewhere.

Even "natural" ones like Hurricane Katrina wouldn't have become a crisis if things hadn't gone horribly wrong with FEMA/the state's ability to deal with the storm hadn't been way below par.

Things have gone wrong, we should figure out why and act on it before they go wrong in the exact same way again.

This doesn't mean we should fly off the handle, but it is never too soon to at least start a dialogue...

47 Stanghazi  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:43:34pm

All I can say is imagine yourself in this dude's shoes.

I forgive all.

48 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:43:59pm

re: #46 jamesfirecat

Maybe its the radical in me but sometimes "wait till we have time to heal" rings in my ears the same as "wait till we have time to forget"

Because you know what it may be crass to "never waste a crisis"

But Crisises (Crisisi?) only happen because something went horribly wrong somewhere.

Even "natural" ones like Hurricane Katrina wouldn't have become a crisis if things hadn't gone horribly wrong with FEMA/the state's ability to deal with the storm hadn't been way below par.

Things have gone wrong, we should figure out why and act on it before they go wrong in the exact same way again.

This doesn't mean we should fly off the handle, but it is never too soon to at least start a dialogue...

madman shoots a bunch of people and no dialog can prevent it, it's all been said before...AZ has some serious laws to deal with crazy people but the timing would have to be perfect to stop an event like this if the shooter really wants to do it....what more can you say?

49 BishopX  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:46:21pm

re: #46 jamesfirecat

It's pretty obvious what went wrong here. The mental health system failed badly, as for all of the laws on the books about preventing mentally ill people from buying weapons, there turned out to be no good way of doing that. Since the solutions to these problems involve government, and there is no such thing as a good government service in the Tea party ideology, they're going to play for time. Frankly having someone who turns up at every meeting and calls these delaying tactics criminal is a good thing. We've known about these issues for years no and nothing has happened. Maybe a survivor speaking out will get something done.

50 JRCMYP  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:47:36pm

re: #26 Charles

What's up with David Frum's left eye?

It seems to be getting worse the more he tries to make excuses for the GOP.

Perhaps his stretching nose is pulling his eyelid with it.

51 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:48:34pm

re: #48 albusteve

madman shoots a bunch of people and no dialog can prevent it, it's all been said before...AZ has some serious laws to deal with crazy people but the timing would have to be perfect to stop an event like this if the shooter really wants to do it...what more can you say?

Steve there were many things that could have been done to prevent this shooting or at least make it more unlikely /less painful.

Make it illegal to buy larger clips, institute gun check (with metal detector) sites at all the entrances to political events, make the psychological testing related to gun purchasing more stringent, now of course none of these things would have stopped the event, but it would have happened in a different way other than someone walking right up to firing range with a legally owned weapon and unloading with enough rounds left over to start shooting innocent children just because.....

52 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:48:57pm

re: #49 BishopX

It's pretty obvious what went wrong here. The mental health system failed badly, as for all of the laws on the books about preventing mentally ill people from buying weapons, there turned out to be no good way of doing that. Since the solutions to these problems involve government, and there is no such thing as a good government service in the Tea party ideology, they're going to play for time. Frankly having someone who turns up at every meeting and calls these delaying tactics criminal is a good thing. We've known about these issues for years no and nothing has happened. Maybe a survivor speaking out will get something done.

it's my understanding that in AZ you need one person to point the finger and two more to collaborate, then the authorities can step in...sounds fairly draconian to me but fair enough...what more can govt do?

53 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:49:42pm

re: #49 BishopX

I seriously think that one of the things they're assiduously avoiding talking about is how Loughner was spouting so many insane conspiracy theories-- since that's one of the main things they trade in.

It's not so different to say the government is using grammar to control you and that Obama used the [applause] sign to turn a memorial into a carnival. Or that the government is unconstitutional and people should be able to make their own currency and, well, that the government is unconstitutional and people ought to be able to make their own currency.

54 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:50:00pm

re: #46 jamesfirecat

The thing is that for political reasons Fuller and Humphries are unlikely to agree (since they don't see most issues the same way). For Humphries to get into an argument with a shooting survivor right after the shooting would make him look bad. So he politely turned the question away. I would have done the same thing.

55 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:50:07pm

re: #51 jamesfirecat

Steve there were many things that could have been done to prevent this shooting or at least make it more unlikely /less painful.

Make it illegal to buy larger clips, institute gun check (with metal detector) sites at all the entrances to political events, make the psychological testing related to gun purchasing more stringent, now of course none of these things would have stopped the event, but it would have happened in a different way other than someone walking right up to firing range with a legally owned weapon and unloading with enough rounds left over to start shooting innocent children just because...

none of those will prevent murder by a nut

56 BishopX  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:52:01pm

re: #55 albusteve

Yeah, they would have. This guy couldn't keep it together long enough to buy ammo from walmart. If someone had had 15 min long interview with him prior to buying the pistol, none of this would have happened.

57 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:52:35pm

re: #53 Obdicut

I seriously think that one of the things they're assiduously avoiding talking about is how Loughner was spouting so many insane conspiracy theories-- since that's one of the main things they trade in.

It's not so different to say the government is using grammar to control you and that Obama used the [applause] sign to turn a memorial into a carnival. Or that the government is unconstitutional and people should be able to make their own currency and, well, that the government is unconstitutional and people ought to be able to make their own currency.

gets back to admitting you're wrong and accepting the guilt...not gonna happen

58 PhillyPretzel  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:53:08pm

Good Night to my fellow Lizards.

59 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:54:11pm

re: #56 BishopX

Yeah, they would have. This guy couldn't keep it together long enough to buy ammo from walmart. If someone had had 15 min long interview with him prior to buying the pistol, none of this would have happened.

the mechanism is there to take a deranged person off the streets....that's the point, it's not about guns

60 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:56:53pm

re: #49 BishopX

It's pretty obvious what went wrong here. The mental health system failed badly, as for all of the laws on the books about preventing mentally ill people from buying weapons, there turned out to be no good way of doing that. Since the solutions to these problems involve government, and there is no such thing as a good government service in the Tea party ideology, they're going to play for time. Frankly having someone who turns up at every meeting and calls these delaying tactics criminal is a good thing. We've known about these issues for years no and nothing has happened. Maybe a survivor speaking out will get something done.

That isn't it. What is true is that conservatives (including David Frum and me) are by nature hostile to ideas that in involve more government. Conservatives react this way because we fear that giving government more power leads to government using that power in abusive and anti-freedom fashion.

61 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:57:25pm

re: #55 albusteve

none of those will prevent murder by a nut

No but they'll make it more difficult, don't you agree?

62 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:57:58pm

Glad to see he's getting some help, even if the commitment was "involuntary".

63 BishopX  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:58:39pm

re: #59 albusteve

No. There needs to be an intermittent level. Not crazy enough to require civil commitment, but not stable enough to trust with a firearm. There are plenty of people with serous debilitating mental illnesses who don;t need civil commitment, but should really not own a gun. People with a long history of suicidal tendencies fall into this category for example.

64 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:59:04pm

re: #61 jamesfirecat

No but they'll make it more difficult, don't you agree?

Yes, but I think the price for at lest two of those too high to pay for the return.

65 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:59:12pm

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

That isn't it. What is true is that conservatives (including David Frum and me) are by nature hostile to ideas that in involve more government. Conservatives react this way because we fear that giving government more power leads to government using that power in abusive and anti-freedom fashion.

And these are the same people who came up with and voted for the Patriotic Act yes?

66 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 7:59:14pm

I didn't watch the interview but this is making the rounds.....
Palin defends 'blood libel' description: 'That's exactly what was going on'
Fail

67 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:00:03pm

re: #64 Dark_Falcon

Yes, but I think the price for at lest two of those too high to pay for the return.

Well the point is that the government can achieve something... the goal is to have a discussion and figure out what the government can do that is reasonable.

The 10 bullet clips for example, Dark do you have a problem with that idea?

68 BishopX  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:00:13pm

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

So whats your solution to batshit crazy people with automatics? What non-governmental solution is there to this problem?

69 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:00:35pm

re: #63 BishopX

But we don't have a system to quantify that.
It's a slippery slope.

70 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:01:49pm

Hot Air has the video of the Palin-Hannity Derpfest for those of us sans tv in the quotes of the day thread.

71 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:02:06pm

re: #61 jamesfirecat

No but they'll make it more difficult, don't you agree?

maybe, if he wants to use a gun....he could use a bat or a rock and forgo any 15min interview that would have prevented it...that's nonsense....any dialog has to be general to all dangerous sick people, not this one particular event...if he knows he will be interviewed at a gun shop and possibly exposed, why would he do that?

72 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:02:22pm

re: #69 Floral Giraffe

It's a slippery slope.


Every slope is slippery.

73 jaunte  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:04:00pm

re: #72 Killgore Trout

The tigers keep slipping on the strawberries.

74 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:04:11pm

re: #71 albusteve

maybe, if he wants to use a gun...he could use a bat or a rock and forgo any 15min interview that would have prevented it...that's nonsense...any dialog has to be general to all dangerous sick people, not this one particular event...if he knows he will be interviewed at a gun shop and possibly exposed, why would he do that?


How many people do you think he would have been able to kill with a bat of a rock to get away with?

Seriously Steve you're just not getting it.

The goal is not to make it impossible for crazy people to kill us... because that is impossible.

The idea is to make it harder.

A step in the right direction is better than standing still my friend....

75 webevintage  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:04:14pm

Humphries was the dude who basically blamed the Congresswoman for the shooting...right?

76 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:05:26pm

re: #73 jaunte

The tigers keep slipping on the strawberries.

Sweet!

77 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:05:45pm

re: #68 BishopX

So whats your solution to batshit crazy people with automatics? What non-governmental solution is there to this problem?

it wasn't an automatic...that right there is part of the problem, you need to understand what it is you're trying to restrict and you don't

78 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:06:20pm

re: #67 jamesfirecat

Well the point is that the government can achieve something... the goal is to have a discussion and figure out what the government can do that is reasonable.

The 10 bullet clips for example, Dark do you have a problem with that idea?

Yes, I do. I don't favor gun control as a solution to this sort of thing. I don't favor having everyone having their rights curtailed because very small number of people are nutty. The Glock 19 is designed for a 15 round magazine and I have no problem with those being legal.

79 webevintage  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:06:32pm

re: #74 jamesfirecat


The goal is not to make it impossible for crazy people to kill us... because that is impossible.

The idea is to make it harder.


I think it was Eddie Izzard who said "Guns don't kill people...they just make it easier".

cake or death people, cake. or. death.

80 Stanghazi  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:07:04pm

re: #65 jamesfirecat

And these are the same people who came up with and voted for the Patriotic Act yes?

Totally different. Govt. is good when it "protect's us" (BS) Govt. is bad when it protects us (helping people.) It's all about compassion for the poor.

I hate it.
Ugh

81 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:08:42pm

re: #78 Dark_Falcon

Yes, I do. I don't favor gun control as a solution to this sort of thing. I don't favor having everyone having their rights curtailed because very small number of people are nutty. The Glock 19 is designed for a 15 round magazine and I have no problem with those being legal.

How about strengthening the psychological testing exam required to buy a gun?

You know like having people search for a person's name on the internet and see if they left a blazing trail of crazy anywhere.

Job creating and life saving!

82 Varek Raith  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:09:14pm

Ah, the 2nd Amendment.
The only thing in the Constitution that was never to have any restrictions whatsoevah!
Unlike everything else in it.
9_9

83 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:09:21pm

re: #67 jamesfirecat

Well the point is that the government can achieve something... the goal is to have a discussion and figure out what the government can do that is reasonable.

The 10 bullet clips for example, Dark do you have a problem with that idea?

I can't speak for DF, but I do. I'm about as leftist as it gets here economically, but I'm a big gun nut too. The problems with mag bans is that they only hurt those who are willing to obey the law. The last mag ban grandfathered in all the old mags because there is utterly no way to get that many out of circulation because as in gresham's law (bad money drives out good) the bad mags will simply lead to hoarding "good" mags. And there are legitimate uses for higher capacity mags, especially in weapon designed for them.

I understand where you're coming from. The only way people will lay down their weapons is the way they are giving up tobacco - as children are taught that it's bad and the users die off. And I am not convinced that's a good thing.

But then, I personally fear a US ala "The Handmaid's Tale" and would be willing to hit the woods, rifle in hand in such a case. And unlike the chicken hawks, I actually understand what that would mean.

84 BishopX  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:09:58pm

re: #71 albusteve

If he had used a bat or a rock there wouldn't be six dead people. The Tuscon, and Virginia Tech shootings have both exposed serous problems with dangerously mentally ill people obtaining firearms and doing massive damage with them. As James said, the goal here is damage control. If I have to open my newspaper to news of a rampage I would rather see the words "stabbed" rather than "shot". Do our practices regarding mentally ill people need to be re-evaluated holistically? Yeah, they do. We should start with some form of universal catastrophic mental health insurance. But we also have a very specific problem here. Namely that something which is already illegal (mentally ill people buying weapons) is not being prevented. This isn't a moral or philosophical issue. This is a technical issue, what is the least burdensome and most effective method of enforcing the law? Because the current system doesn't meet the effectiveness criteria.

85 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:10:00pm

re: #74 jamesfirecat

How many people do you think he would have been able to kill with a bat of a rock to get away with?

Seriously Steve you're just not getting it.

The goal is not to make it impossible for crazy people to kill us... because that is impossible.

The idea is to make it harder.

A step in the right direction is better than standing still my friend...

no, you're not getting it..you have not listened to a word I've posted...you want to narrowly focus on one person, one event or very similar situations...we have to live with a certain amt of mayhem if we are to be a free society...you need to work on getting the 2nd amendment repealed because that's your only solution that is fair for everyone....mislabeling weapons, restricting ammo etc will not stop the killers...it's been tried and hasn't worked....if you think the difference is 10rounds not 30 rounds you are simply naive

86 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:11:37pm

well I give up...like talking to a brick wall

87 BishopX  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:13:21pm

re: #77 albusteve

Yes, it was an automatic. Learn your guns. Any weapon where a second bullet is loaded automatically after the 1st is fired is considered an automatic.

88 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:13:33pm

re: #81 jamesfirecat

How about strengthening the psychological testing exam required to buy a gun?

You know like having people search for a person's name on the internet and see if they left a blazing trail of crazy anywhere.

Job creating and life saving!

There is no "psychological testing exam" required to buy a gun, and imposing one would be problematic. The Right to Bear Arms having been affirmed by the Supreme Court in the Heller decision as an individual right, it cannot be taken away without due process. No simple exam or internet search can meet that standard.

89 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:15:31pm

re: #85 albusteve

no, you're not getting it..you have not listened to a word I've posted...you want to narrowly focus on one person, one event or very similar situations...we have to live with a certain amt of mayhem if we are to be a free society...you need to work on getting the 2nd amendment repealed because that's your only solution that is fair for everyone...mislabeling weapons, restricting ammo etc will not stop the killers...it's been tried and hasn't worked...if you think the difference is 10rounds not 30 rounds you are simply naive

Well excuse me for thinking the fact that a guy as crazy as Loughner was able to legally obtain a firearm means that we're doing something wrong.

Not even repealing the 2nd amendment would stop the killers, it would just insure that only outlaws/law enforcement officials have firearms.

90 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:15:42pm

re: #87 BishopX

Yes, it was an automatic. Learn your guns. Any weapon where a second bullet is loaded automatically after the 1st is fired is considered an automatic.

wrong...automatic is one pull for continuous fire...a machine gun
semi-auto is one round per pull...you should already know that....you are misinterpreting your source....go back and read the LAW...it's very clear

91 rwmofo  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:15:55pm

re: #87 BishopX

Yes, it was an automatic. Learn your guns. Any weapon where a second bullet is loaded automatically after the 1st is fired is considered an automatic.

Ummm, no. Here's the first sentence from your link:

"An automatic firearm is a firearm that fires continuously or automatically (without manual reloading) when the trigger is pulled, rather than firing a single shot per trigger pull."

92 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:16:11pm

re: #87 BishopX

Yes, it was an automatic. Learn your guns. Any weapon where a second bullet is loaded automatically after the 1st is fired is considered an automatic.

No. That is a self-loading weapon, commonly refered to as a semi-automatic.

An automatic weapon continues to fire as long as the trigger is held down.

The Glock in the incident was a semi-automatic. This is an important distinction.

93 BishopX  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:16:21pm

re: #69 Floral Giraffe

Yes, we don't have an existing system. Yes, we would need to write criteria. Yes, we would need some way of verifying some of the things said in an interview. None of this is hard however.

94 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:17:43pm

re: #87 BishopX

Yes, it was an automatic. Learn your guns. Any weapon where a second bullet is loaded automatically after the 1st is fired is considered an automatic.

My down is due to a bad misreading of your link.

95 BishopX  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:17:45pm

re: #90 albusteve

From the Wiki:

An automatic weapon fires, automatically extracts the used cartridge case from the barrel and ejects it, then loads a new case into the barrel; generally by harnessing the recoil of the cartridge's explosion.

There are two competing definitions here.

96 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:17:46pm

re: #92 wlewisiii

No. That is a self-loading weapon, commonly refered to as a semi-automatic.

An automatic weapon continues to fire as long as the trigger is held down.

The Glock in the incident was a semi-automatic. This is an important distinction.

nah, who acres about the details....ban 30round clips?, fine I'll just carry 3 ten rounds clips....the whole argument is stupid

97 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:18:21pm

re: #96 albusteve

nah, who acres about the details...ban 30round clips?, fine I'll just carry 3 ten rounds clips...the whole argument is stupid

Except that in this case that is exactly what the bad guy tried to do... and when he needed to take a moment to reload he got tackled.

So yeah....

98 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:18:59pm

re: #95 BishopX

From the Wiki:

There are two competing definitions here.

then don't trust wiki....pretty simple

99 BishopX  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:19:05pm

re: #94 wlewisiii

No problem. Guns are fucking confusing. Fun as hell, but confusing.

100 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:19:10pm

re: #87 BishopX

Yes, it was an automatic. Learn your guns. Any weapon where a second bullet is loaded automatically after the 1st is fired is considered an automatic.

Loaded, but not fired. Albusteve was referring to the difference between semi-automatic and full automatic. With Glocks, this is a relevant distinction, as a full auto 9mm Glock has been produced, the Glock 18. Though only a licensed dealer may own one of those, and then only as a sales sample (for sales to police agencies).

101 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:20:54pm

re: #97 jamesfirecat

Except that in this case that is exactly what the bad guy tried to do... and when he needed to take a moment to reload he got tackled.

So yeah...

True but only so far as it goes. You ban them tomorrow and there will still be ever one of them ever made still on the market. Now more expensive, to be sure, but even if possession is illegal they will still exist

No gun control law can change that essential fact.

102 rwmofo  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:22:15pm

re: #95 BishopX

From the Wiki:

There are two competing definitions here.

If you pull the trigger once (and hold it down) and only one round is fired, that is not an automatic weapon.

If you pull the trigger once (and hold it down) and rounds are continuously fired, that's an automatic weapon.

If it automatically reloads (but only fires one round), it's a semi-automatic.

103 BishopX  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:22:19pm

re: #98 albusteve

Look...I'm using the term like I was taught it by my buddies gun-nut father when he taught me to shoot.

The term is ambiguous, generally an automatic $Pistol (e.g automatic glock) is fully automatic, while $pistol automatic generally refers to any pistol that readies a 2nd bullet (i.e. not a revolver).

104 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:23:58pm

re: #101 wlewisiii

True but only so far as it goes. You ban them tomorrow and there will still be ever one of them ever made still on the market. Now more expensive, to be sure, but even if possession is illegal they will still exist

No gun control law can change that essential fact.

Yeah it would be.

But once again, you guys keep seeming to want to argue this as an all or nothing thing.

It isn't, not for me at least.

For me it is an issue of just making it more difficult, even if only a little bit more difficult...

Its about meaning that crazy people have to have a certain amount of intelligence as well in order to be truly dangerous... the bar seems to be set dangerously low to me when Loughner can do what he did...

105 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:24:07pm

re: #103 BishopX

Look...I'm using the term like I was taught it by my buddies gun-nut father when he taught me to shoot.

The term is ambiguous, generally an automatic $Pistol (e.g automatic glock) is fully automatic, while $pistol automatic generally refers to any pistol that readies a 2nd bullet (i.e. not a revolver).

Should I tell you about the handful of automatic revolvers that were made at the turn of the 19th to 20th centuries? :D

106 BishopX  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:24:28pm

re: #102 rwmofo


There are two classes of automatic weapons, semi and fully automatic. The distinction between them is how many bullets come out when you pull the trigger. They are both still automatics. Make sense?

107 BishopX  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:24:53pm

re: #105 wlewisiii

Automatic as opposed to double action? Yes please!

108 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:27:00pm

re: #103 BishopX

Look...I'm using the term like I was taught it by my buddies gun-nut father when he taught me to shoot.

The term is ambiguous, generally an automatic $Pistol (e.g automatic glock) is fully automatic, while $pistol automatic generally refers to any pistol that readies a 2nd bullet (i.e. not a revolver).

the term is not ambiguous....there are laws dealing with the definitions, which has never changed, never....and your buddies dad is spreading bad info, or you misunderstood him...you are just plain wrong

109 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:28:17pm

re: #105 wlewisiii

Should I tell you about the handful of automatic revolvers that were made at the turn of the 19th to 20th centuries? :D

The most famous being the Webley-Fosbury, designed by Col. Fosbury VC (Victoria Cross). That weapon fired the .455 Webley round that was renounced for its stopping power.

110 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:28:45pm

re: #106 BishopX

There are two classes of automatic weapons, semi and fully automatic. The distinction between them is how many bullets come out when you pull the trigger. They are both still automatics. Make sense?

no, why do you even keep trying?....read the infamous assault weapons ban laws, that was recently reversed

111 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:29:20pm

I have heard semi-automatics referred to as just "automatics" in the past. It's a somewhat ambiguous term.

112 rwmofo  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:29:47pm

re: #106 BishopX

There are two classes of automatic weapons, semi and fully automatic. The distinction between them is how many bullets come out when you pull the trigger. They are both still automatics. Make sense?

We're really trying to help you. Let's use the definition for semi-automatic:

First sentence:

"A semi-automatic rifle is a type of rifle that fires a single bullet each time the trigger is pulled, automatically ejects the spent cartridge, chambers a fresh cartridge from its magazine, and is immediately ready to fire another shot."

113 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:30:17pm

re: #104 jamesfirecat

But once again, you guys keep seeming to want to argue this as an all or nothing thing.

For me, it really is just that. Because while many of these nutcases fear the ebil Dem gun grabbers, my fear is expressed in my #83, James.

If nothing else, I remember the first time I read about the Warsaw ghetto rising.

Some times the compromises needed by the social contract are less pretty than they could be.

114 jaunte  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:31:20pm

Identification of Firearms Within the Purview of the National Firearms Act
[Link: www.atf.gov...]

115 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:31:27pm

re: #52 albusteve

it's my understanding that in AZ you need one person to point the finger and two more to collaborate, then the authorities can step in...sounds fairly draconian to me but fair enough...what more can govt do?

I believe you meant "corroborate" rather than "collaborate", although the latter could be true if it's a conspiracy.

116 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:31:54pm

re: #106 BishopX

There are two classes of automatic weapons, semi and fully automatic. The distinction between them is how many bullets come out when you pull the trigger. They are both still automatics. Make sense?

The problem is the that the term "automatic" is normally taken (especially by people who know nothing about guns) to mean "full-automatic". Thus the insistence on the term "semi-automatic". Part of the reason is that some anti-gun groups have used the term "automatic" mendaciously to imply that semi-auto firearms were really full-auto ones. I do not, repeat not, accuse anyone here of such mendacity. But it has happened enough to force a certain strictness on terms.

117 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:32:08pm

Fox says the early line is the Packers by 3 over da Bears...close to dead even, but not so good for Chicago, the home team...in Cheeseland, it would be by 6 or 7...Chicago is my first and favorite big city and I love Lovie, but I pick the Pack again

118 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:32:33pm

re: #113 wlewisiii

For me, it really is just that. Because while many of these nutcases fear the ebil Dem gun grabbers, my fear is expressed in my #83, James.

If nothing else, I remember the first time I read about the Warsaw ghetto rising.

Some times the compromises needed by the social contract are less pretty than they could be.

Fair enough... honestly my main favorite solution is the idea of setting up gun check metal detector stations around big political events.

Its less contentious to argue where you can and can't take your gun than to argue who can and can't own one isn't it?

119 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:32:59pm

re: #109 Dark_Falcon

The most famous being the Webley-Fosbury, designed by Col. Fosbury VC (Victoria Cross). That weapon fired the .455 Webley round that was renounced for its stopping power.

Renounced, or renowned? It makes a difference.

120 jaunte  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:33:08pm

It was Andy Kaufman's birthday today.


January 17, 1949 – May 16, 1984
121 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:33:23pm

re: #111 Fozzie Bear

I have heard semi-automatics referred to as just "automatics" in the past. It's a somewhat ambiguous term.

no, the term is chrystal clear under the law....it's ambiguous because either you want it to be, or other people are just ignorant

122 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:34:15pm

re: #115 ClaudeMonet

I believe you meant "corroborate" rather than "collaborate", although the latter could be true if it's a conspiracy.

I did, my bad

123 rwmofo  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:34:23pm

re: #117 albusteve

Fox says the early line is the Packers by 3 over da Bears...close to dead even, but not so good for Chicago, the home team...in Cheeseland, it would be by 6 or 7...Chicago is my first and favorite big city and I love Lovie, but I pick the Pack again

Seattle wins in New Orleans.

The Jets win in New England.

That's why they make them play.

124 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:34:39pm

re: #117 albusteve

Fox says the early line is the Packers by 3 over da Bears...close to dead even, but not so good for Chicago, the home team...in Cheeseland, it would be by 6 or 7...Chicago is my first and favorite big city and I love Lovie, but I pick the Pack again

You'll be disappointed then. The bears underrated and have been since their bye week. They beat the Packers early in the year and only lost by a touchdown in Green Bay in a game the Bears didn't need to win and the Packers had to win. Chicago will pull out all the stops Sunday, and the Bears will win!

125 freetoken  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:35:18pm

re: #83 wlewisiii


But then, I personally fear a US ala "The Handmaid's Tale" and would be willing to hit the woods, rifle in hand in such a case. And unlike the chicken hawks, I actually understand what that would mean.

When doomers predicting near-future collapse of society inquire of what kind of preparation they should undertake, I tell them this:

When the collapse comes, the trade/skill that is guaranteed to be in demand for decades is... gunsmith.

126 BishopX  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:35:23pm

re: #121 albusteve

The legal term is "Machine gun", not automatic. There is a crucial difference.

127 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:35:27pm

re: #119 ClaudeMonet

Renounced, or renowned? It makes a difference.

Renowned. PIMF

128 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:35:30pm

What was the capacity of the clips used by Cho in the Virginia Tech massacre?

129 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:36:03pm

re: #116 Dark_Falcon

The problem is the that the term "automatic" is normally taken (especially by people who know nothing about guns) to mean "full-automatic". Thus the insistence on the term "semi-automatic". Part of the reason is that some anti-gun groups have used the term "automatic" mendaciously to imply that semi-auto firearms were really full-auto ones. I do not, repeat not, accuse anyone here of such mendacity. But it has happened enough to force a certain strictness on terms.

Some of the confusion may be because semi-automatic handguns are usually referred to as "automatic", as opposed to revolvers.

This is not an area of expertise or even great knowledge for me, so if I'm wrong, please forgive my error as one of enthusiasm.

130 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:36:36pm

re: #125 freetoken

When doomers predicting near-future collapse of society inquire of what kind of preparation they should undertake, I tell them this:

When the collapse comes, the trade/skill that is guaranteed to be in demand for decades is... gunsmith.

Gunsmith is only useful as long as you have the raw materials to make firearms.

I'm bettering on gardner, and fletcher.

(If I misspelled that someone who raises crops and someone who makes arrows)

131 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:36:38pm

re: #123 rwmofo

Seattle wins in New Orleans.

The Jets win in New England.

That's why they make them play.

some really great playoffs this year...no reason to think the Bears/Packers game will be a dud

132 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:37:03pm

re: #129 ClaudeMonet

Some of the confusion may be because semi-automatic handguns are usually referred to as "automatic", as opposed to revolvers.

This is not an area of expertise or even great knowledge for me, so if I'm wrong, please forgive my error as one of enthusiasm.

You are forgiven.

133 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:37:04pm

I am a gun supporter, for legal owners who follow the laws.
If the laws are flawed, then we have legislative means to fix them.
Psychology tests are only good at the time they are administered.
Adding this kind of bureaucracy to an already incredible level of bureaucratic requirements, doesn't make any sense to me. Again, it's for legal owners who follow the laws.

134 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:37:20pm

re: #121 albusteve

no, the term is chrystal clear under the law...it's ambiguous because either you want it to be, or other people are just ignorant

Or because it's ambiguous due to semi-automatics sometimes being referred to as merely "automatics".

An automatic firearm is a firearm that fires continuously or automatically (without manual reloading) when the trigger is pulled, rather than firing a single shot per trigger pull.
The term can be used to refer to semi-automatic firearms, which fire one shot per single pull of the trigger (like the .45 "automatic"), or fully automatic firearms, which will continue to load and fire ammunition until the trigger (or other activating device) is released, the ammunition is exhausted, or the firearm is jammed.

As I said, the term "automatic", by itself, is ambiguous.

135 jaunte  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:37:20pm

re: #128 Gus 802

What was the capacity of the clips used by Cho in the Virginia Tech massacre?

On July 30, 2007, after it came to light that Seung-Hui Cho had purchased on eBay two 10-round magazines for one of the guns used in the shootings, the online auctioneer prohibited the sale of firearms magazines, firearms parts, and ammunition components on its site.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

136 rwmofo  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:37:31pm

re: #124 Dark_Falcon

You'll be disappointed then. The bears underrated and have been since their bye week. They beat the Packers early in the year and only lost by a touchdown in Green Bay in a game the Bears didn't need to win and the Packers had to win. Chicago will pull out all the stops Sunday, and the Bears will win!

Now you'll promise to keep all of your "automatic" weapons in the closet during the game, won't you? Don't blame the TV.

137 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:38:04pm

re: #124 Dark_Falcon

You'll be disappointed then. The bears underrated and have been since their bye week. They beat the Packers early in the year and only lost by a touchdown in Green Bay in a game the Bears didn't need to win and the Packers had to win. Chicago will pull out all the stops Sunday, and the Bears will win!

this is not that Packer team....the D has stepped up and Rodgers is playing lights out....but I'll save some kleenex for you

138 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:39:08pm

re: #135 jaunte

Thanks. Looks like he also had 15 round magazines.

139 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:39:19pm

re: #132 Dark_Falcon

You are forgiven.

OK, apparently I was wrong. Please enlighten me.

140 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:39:32pm

re: #126 BishopX

The legal term is "Machine gun", not automatic. There is a crucial difference.

there is no automatic...it's called full automatic....so what's the crucial difference?....this is getting fun actually

141 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:39:36pm

re: #124 Dark_Falcon

You'll be disappointed then. The bears underrated and have been since their bye week. They beat the Packers early in the year and only lost by a touchdown in Green Bay in a game the Bears didn't need to win and the Packers had to win. Chicago will pull out all the stops Sunday, and the Bears will win!

My gut feeling is 14-10 Packers. Mainly because Rodgers, Williams & Mathews are hotter right now than their Chicago counterparts. Urlacher is going to be angry next Monday I fear :)

But seriously, I expect a very hard played game that will come down to which of Cutler or Rodgers makes a mistake and that's why I give the edge to the Packers.

I do wish, DF, that we could sit somwhere next Sunday and take in the game together the way Halas & Lambeau could - seriously but not crazy. You know those two are in heaven running a betting line... ;)

142 BishopX  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:40:02pm

re: #133 Floral Giraffe

Then how would you keep someone suspended from school for mental reasons, someone the school is worried enough that they have three cops come along when they read him the suspension letter, how would you prevent them from buying a gun?

143 freetoken  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:40:21pm

re: #130 jamesfirecat

There is more than enough iron laying around society, such that the ruins can be scavenged for many years for metal. Likewise carbon, sulfur, and even potassium chloride.

American History lesson: guns beat arrows.

144 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:40:23pm

re: #128 Gus 802

What was the capacity of the clips used by Cho in the Virginia Tech massacre?

275 I think....they need to be banned

145 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:40:26pm

re: #125 freetoken

When doomers predicting near-future collapse of society inquire of what kind of preparation they should undertake, I tell them this:

When the collapse comes, the trade/skill that is guaranteed to be in demand for decades is... gunsmith.

I learned that skill in the US Army. Take that as you will ...

146 freetoken  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:40:54pm

re: #145 wlewisiii

I learned that skill in the US Army. Take that as you will ...

When the end comes, I hope you'll be my friend.

148 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:42:23pm

re: #143 freetoken

There is more than enough iron laying around society, such that the ruins can be scavenged for many years for metal. Likewise carbon, sulfur, and even potassium chloride.

American History lesson: guns beat arrows.

Fair enough, but at the end of the day, you still can't eat bullets....

149 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:42:26pm

re: #134 Fozzie Bear

Or because it's ambiguous due to semi-automatics sometimes being referred to as merely "automatics".

As I said, the term "automatic", by itself, is ambiguous.

whoever wrote that is wrong....probably a gun grabber

150 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:42:38pm

re: #144 albusteve

275 I think...they need to be banned

What's a 275?

151 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:42:54pm

re: #136 rwmofo

Now you'll promise to keep all of your "automatic" weapons in the closet during the game, won't you? Don't blame the TV.

I don't own a gun. I can't afford one right now.

152 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:43:00pm

re: #146 freetoken

When the end comes, I hope you'll be my friend.

I just hope my neighbors have lots of Gold and Survival seeds

153 jaunte  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:43:04pm

re: #150 Gus 802

Quarter to three.

154 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:43:13pm

re: #141 wlewisiii

My gut feeling is 14-10 Packers. Mainly because Rodgers, Williams & Mathews are hotter right now than their Chicago counterparts. Urlacher is going to be angry next Monday I fear :)

But seriously, I expect a very hard played game that will come down to which of Cutler or Rodgers makes a mistake and that's why I give the edge to the Packers.

I do wish, DF, that we could sit somwhere next Sunday and take in the game together the way Halas & Lambeau could - seriously but not crazy. You know those two are in heaven running a betting line... ;)

good assessment...agreed

155 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:43:15pm

275 grain?

156 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:43:37pm

re: #147 Fozzie Bear

Experts agree that when the zombie horde comes, you won't want a fully automatic firearm.

You'll want a magnum, no need to aim for the head, even a bullet to the leg will stop a zombie with a round that big... also they come with infinite clips for some reason...

(Someone here is finally getting around to playing L4D2....)

157 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:44:10pm

re: #142 BishopX

You can't. It's not written into the current law. Unless there's a "mental evaluation" phrase. I don't believe there is, currently. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it is not written into the current law. Many things that applies too. Restraining order violations, come to mind.

158 jaunte  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:44:26pm

Ed Driscoll backing slowly away from [Applausegate], but still sensitive to pernicious influences:

Late Update (2:45 PM) 1/17/11): Rush Limbaugh, Guy Benson and Kathy Shaidle disagree with Jim Hoft’s take, and presumably they’re not on Media Matters’ payroll, investigating Sarah Palin’s uterus or looking to manufacture a cheap diversion after a dreadful week for the left. Obviously, reasonable people can disagree on the audience influence of, what I noted above on Saturday, was the captioning for hearing impaired in the grandstands.
159 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:44:27pm

re: #150 Gus 802

What's a 275?

the number of rounds...a HUGE mag
I jest

160 rwmofo  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:44:53pm

re: #142 BishopX

Then how would you keep someone suspended from school for mental reasons, someone the school is worried enough that they have three cops come along when they read him the suspension letter, how would you prevent them from buying a gun?

How do you prevent him from buying a knife so he doesn't stab someone?

How do you prevent him from buying a baseball bat so he doesn't hit people?

How do you prevent him from driving so he doesn't run people over?

Oh, I know. We can outlaw guns, knives, baseball and cars and no one will ever be hurt.

161 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:45:11pm

re: #152 HoosierHoops

I just hope my neighbors have lots of Gold and Survival seeds

LOL!
You forgot the water, in California!
*waves*

162 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:45:24pm

re: #147 Fozzie Bear

Experts agree that when the zombie horde comes, you won't want a fully automatic firearm.

I don't even need to read that to know that.

12 Gauge. 00Buckshot. Zombie mush.

163 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:45:54pm

re: #160 rwmofo

How do you prevent him from buying a knife so he doesn't stab someone?

How do you prevent him from buying a baseball bat so he doesn't hit people?

How do you prevent him from driving so he doesn't run people over?

Oh, I know. We can outlaw guns, knives, baseball and cars and no one will ever be hurt.

This is the most transparent attempt at a straw man argument I have seen in a long time.

164 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:46:10pm

re: #160 rwmofo

Uh, Oh. I'm kind of agreeing with rwmofo.

165 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:46:11pm

re: #159 albusteve

the number of rounds...a HUGE mag
I jest

Ah. Apparently he brought a total of 400 rounds. I still find it hard to understand what happened that day. So many people killed.

166 freetoken  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:46:17pm

re: #148 jamesfirecat

Fair enough, but at the end of the day, you still can't eat bullets...

Famous last words!

167 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:47:23pm

re: #160 rwmofo

How do you prevent him from buying a knife so he doesn't stab someone?

How do you prevent him from buying a baseball bat so he doesn't hit people?

How do you prevent him from driving so he doesn't run people over?

Oh, I know. We can outlaw guns, knives, baseball and cars and no one will ever be hurt.

Dude I address this many times.

Nothing can be done to make us perfectly safe...

But steps can be made to make us safer.

Do you honestly believe that Loughner would have been able to kill 6 people and wound 9 others with a knife or baseball bat?

168 rwmofo  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:49:06pm

re: #164 Floral Giraffe

Uh, Oh. I'm kind of agreeing with rwmofo.

Heh. Don't resist. It's a wonderful thing.

169 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:49:07pm

re: #148 jamesfirecat

Fair enough, but at the end of the day, you still can't eat bullets...

But lead gets food ;)

Venison, squirrel, rabbit, elk, etc. And in an "OhShi" world - stray cows & dogs equal food too & a .22 is good for that purpose.

170 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:49:26pm

re: #165 Gus 802

Ah. Apparently he brought a total of 400 rounds. I still find it hard to understand what happened that day. So many people killed.

makes me sick inside...that dear old man protecting his wife just makes my cry, and the poor little girl...shit

171 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:49:32pm

Talking about guns, is like talking politics, religion, money or sex.
Every one has their own opinions.
You AREN'T going to change the other persons point of view.

So, there's a Great Horned Owl hooting outside my house tonight!
First one I've heard here in 3 years. It's so cool!

172 BishopX  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:50:45pm

re: #169 wlewisiii

Don't forget you can eat people as long as you cook the brains long enough to denature the prions.

//Had a wonderful conversation with 2 doctors at a con about this today.

173 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:50:51pm

re: #171 Floral Giraffe

Talking about guns, is like talking politics, religion, money or sex.
Every one has their own opinions.
You AREN'T going to change the other persons point of view.

So, there's a Great Horned Owl hooting outside my house tonight!
First one I've heard here in 3 years. It's so cool!

So guns, politics religion, money and sex are worthless.

Damn it isn't there anything we can talk about here where we have a chance of changing someone's opinion.

(Pause)

I think that Bioshock 2 was a better game than the original.

Discuss....

174 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:50:57pm

re: #171 Floral Giraffe

Amen.

175 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:51:16pm

re: #150 Gus 802

What's a 275?

The Interstate that circles Cincinnati.

176 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:51:20pm

re: #171 Floral Giraffe

Talking about guns, is like talking politics, religion, money or sex.
Every one has their own opinions.
You AREN'T going to change the other persons point of view.

So, there's a Great Horned Owl hooting outside my house tonight!
First one I've heard here in 3 years. It's so cool!

Tastes like chicken?

177 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:51:54pm

re: #148 jamesfirecat

Fair enough, but at the end of the day, you still can't eat bullets...

No, but I can eat you! [aims rifle]

/entirely kidding. That should not be taken as a threat against any person.

178 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:52:11pm

re: #167 jamesfirecat

Dude I address this many times.

Nothing can be done to make us perfectly safe...

But steps can be made to make us safer.

Do you honestly believe that Loughner would have been able to kill 6 people and wound 9 others with a knife or baseball bat?

so that's one incident that you are hung up on...do you not understand that we are addressing the issue of murderous lunatics?....that was the issue and still is for me....your last sentence is the strawman

179 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:52:54pm

Don't worry about China. Here's your real problem....

180 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:53:10pm

re: #171 Floral Giraffe

Talking about guns, is like talking politics, religion, money or sex.
Every one has their own opinions.
You AREN'T going to change the other persons point of view.

So, there's a Great Horned Owl hooting outside my house tonight!
First one I've heard here in 3 years. It's so cool!

Very cool. We have those is Illinois, too. They have a very wide range.

181 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:53:59pm

re: #176 Killgore Trout

Tastes like chicken?

boiled own, Texas style

182 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:54:16pm

re: #178 albusteve

so that's one incident that you are hung up on...do you not understand that we are addressing the issue of murderous lunatics?...that was the issue and still is for me...your last sentence is the strawman

I said
"Do you honestly believe that Loughner would have been able to kill 6 people and wound 9 others with a knife or baseball bat?"

In response to

"Oh, I know. We can outlaw guns, knives, baseball and cars and no one will ever be hurt."


Once again

Someone else says

"Oh, I know. We can outlaw guns, knives, baseball and cars and no one will ever be hurt."

I inquire

"Do you honestly believe that Loughner would have been able to kill 6 people and wound 9 others with a knife or baseball bat?"

How is it a strawman when I'm arguing against an argument another blogger has posted?

183 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:54:46pm

re: #176 Killgore Trout

Tastes like chicken?

Tree frogs?
Never eaten one.
Beautiful creatures, though...

184 rwmofo  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:56:12pm

re: #167 jamesfirecat

Dude I address this many times.

Nothing can be done to make us perfectly safe...

But steps can be made to make us safer.

Do you honestly believe that Loughner would have been able to kill 6 people and wound 9 others with a knife or baseball bat?

At the grocery store that day? Doubtful. But will outlawing guns prevent crazy people from killing others? No. They'll find a way. The solution is not to punish law-abiding citizens by removing a very effective way of defending themsleves. BTW, it's, like, in the Bill of Rights which specifically gives rights to people to protect us from an oppressive government. It has to do with individual freedom - or something.

185 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:57:46pm

re: #182 jamesfirecat

I said
"Do you honestly believe that Loughner would have been able to kill 6 people and wound 9 others with a knife or baseball bat?"

In response to

"Oh, I know. We can outlaw guns, knives, baseball and cars and no one will ever be hurt."

Once again

Someone else says

"Oh, I know. We can outlaw guns, knives, baseball and cars and no one will ever be hurt."

I inquire

"Do you honestly believe that Loughner would have been able to kill 6 people and wound 9 others with a knife or baseball bat?"

How is it a strawman when I'm arguing against an argument another blogger has posted?

do you want my semi or full auto answer?...this entire convo no longer interests me....it's just muck now

186 jaunte  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:57:53pm

re: #179 Killgore Trout

Whoever makes The Clapper and Snuggie tv ads could use a younger spokesman.

187 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:57:58pm

re: #179 Killgore Trout

the best part is the end when he goes into a tour guide mode at the end. He's eyeballing the lady walking behind him watching for a boot in the ass.

188 Varek Raith  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:58:06pm

Sonovabitch!!!!
I think I broke some toes....
Way to kick the shelve's corner there Varek.

189 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:58:30pm

re: #184 rwmofo

...BTW, it's, like, in the Bill of Rights which specifically gives rights to people to protect us from an oppressive government. It has to do with individual freedom - or something.

I don't think that's correct. The reason was to create a citizen army or militia to protect us from foreign armies -- namely the British and the Indians.

190 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 8:59:21pm

It's also a problem, when the criminals have heavier weapons, than the police.
I don't have a solution.
My office was locked down during the North Hollywood Shootout between bank robbers and the LAPD.
I have very mixed emotions on guns.

191 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:00:10pm

re: #184 rwmofo

At the grocery store that day? Doubtful. But will outlawing guns prevent crazy people from killing others? No. They'll find a way. The solution is not to punish law-abiding citizens by removing a very effective way of defending themsleves. BTW, it's, like, in the Bill of Rights which specifically gives rights to people to protect us from an oppressive government. It has to do with individual freedom - or something.

I'm tired of saying this over and over again.

Crazy people will find ways to kill us, yes.

But on the other hand will it be as easy for them?

Of course it won't be.

Its a trade off of one for another and the goal should be to make it as hard as possible for crazy people to harm us without infringing on the rights of others in any meaningful way.

The problem is that its hard to figure out what is the best and most effective method for dealing with this problem.

I'm gonna stop arguing this point now because like Floral pointed this is a very entrenched issue for many people, myself included so best not to argue it this late at night when it gets harder and harder to think clearly...

192 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:00:51pm

re: #189 Gus 802

I don't think that's correct. The reason was to create a citizen army or militia to protect us from foreign armies -- namely the British and the Indians.

the Brits were both foreign and oppressive...the Indian angle is a stretch, never heard that one but I'm no expert in the Great Debate...I just aim and fire

193 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:00:52pm

re: #173 jamesfirecat

Before getting back to OU saturday, I started paying Final Fantasy 13. I liked it. Not as good as 7 or 8 so far, but definitely better than 12.

194 Varek Raith  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:01:26pm

re: #193 ProLifeLiberal

Before getting back to OU saturday, I started paying Final Fantasy 13. I liked it. Not as good as 7 or 8 so far, but definitely better than 12.

Gunswords FTW!!!

195 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:02:57pm

re: #192 albusteve

the Brits were both foreign and oppressive...the Indian angle is a stretch, never heard that one but I'm no expert in the Great Debate...I just aim and fire

Well, I was just trying to think of what they thought of as a threat back in the day. I assume they believed that the Indians were a threat to security at the time. Just in case the 2nd Amendment reads:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

196 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:03:00pm

re: #193 ProLifeLiberal

Before getting back to OU saturday, I started paying Final Fantasy 13. I liked it. Not as good as 7 or 8 so far, but definitely better than 12.

Seven is the best.

There shall be NO debate on this issue.

197 BishopX  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:03:56pm

re: #196 jamesfirecat

Meh, I liked better :D

Something about the fishing.

198 BishopX  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:04:15pm

re: #197 BishopX

Meh, I liked 6better :D

Something about the fishing.

199 Varek Raith  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:04:24pm

re: #196 jamesfirecat

Seven is the best.

There shall be NO debate on this issue.

No. 6 is the best.
:P

200 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:04:27pm

But there was a reason why I brought up Cho. He used 10 and 15 round magazines.

201 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:04:46pm

re: #191 jamesfirecat

There is no way to protect yourself and your loved ones from anything, all the time. Random craziness happens. Dear friend of mine dropped dead on 12/15 at age 37. They don't know why, autopsy still pending. So, you live your life to the fullest, each & every day & hug your loved ones.
*smooch*
for each of you reading my rant!

202 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:05:13pm

re: #193 ProLifeLiberal

Before getting back to OU saturday, I started paying Final Fantasy 13. I liked it. Not as good as 7 or 8 so far, but definitely better than 12.

If it's Final, why are there 13 of them? Shouldn't it have ended at 1?

203 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:05:22pm

re: #190 Floral Giraffe

It's also a problem, when the criminals have heavier weapons, than the police.
I don't have a solution.
My office was locked down during the North Hollywood Shootout between bank robbers and the LAPD.
I have very mixed emotions on guns.

Those weapons were either illegal or illegally modified. And in the end, it was a lawful gun store that supplied the AR-15 type rifles some of the officers used to help end the fight. So the balance of North Hollywood would seem to favor lawful firearms possession.

204 rwmofo  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:05:34pm

re: #189 Gus 802

I don't think that's correct. The reason was to create a citizen army or militia to protect us from foreign armies -- namely the British and the Indians.

If you clicked on the link, then you'd know that I was referring to the "Bill of Rights." Assuming you're referring to the 2nd Amendment, then you may have determined that there's more than one. There's, like, 10. So you don't have to think it's correct. Our Founding Fathers don't care what you think. You still got 10 when they initially drew them up. The bonus is we've actually gotten several more since then. Freedom. Love it. Live it.

205 freetoken  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:05:55pm

Archaeology headline of the day:

Caligula's tomb found after police arrest man trying to smuggle statue

The lost tomb of Caligula has been found, according to Italian police, after the arrest of a man trying to smuggle abroad a statue of the notorious Roman emperor recovered from the site.

After reportedly sleeping with his sisters, killing for pleasure and seeking to appoint his horse a consul during his rule from AD37 to 41, Caligula was described by contemporaries as insane.

With many of Caligula's monuments destroyed after he was killed by his Praetorian guard at 28, archaeologists are eager to excavate for his remains.

[...]

Caligula could have used a gun.

BTW, I wonder... who's buried in Caligula's tomb?

206 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:06:08pm

re: #195 Gus 802

Well, I was just trying to think of what they thought of as a threat back in the day. I assume they believed that the Indians were a threat to security at the time. Just in case the 2nd Amendment reads:

Indians were a direct threat to lives up to the Rev War...those previous decades were full of massacres all through the East

207 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:06:18pm

re: #201 Floral Giraffe

There is no way to protect yourself and your loved ones from anything, all the time. Random craziness happens. Dear friend of mine dropped dead on 12/15 at age 37. They don't know why, autopsy still pending. So, you live your life to the fullest, each & every day & hug your loved ones.
*smooch*
for each of you reading my rant!

(((Floral)))

208 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:06:40pm

re: #196 jamesfirecat

Seven is the best.

There shall be NO debate on this issue.

FF1 was obviously the best.

The rest are just sequels.

/What?

209 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:06:51pm

re: #204 rwmofo

If you clicked on the link, then you'd know that I was referring to the "Bill of Rights." Assuming you're referring to the 2nd Amendment, then you may have determined that there's more than one. There's, like, 10. So you don't have to think it's correct. Our Founding Fathers don't care what you think. You still got 10 when they initially drew them up. The bonus is we've actually gotten several more since then. Freedom. Love it. Live it.

Hmm. OK. Let me have a look because right now I don't know what you're getting at with your "freedom, love it, live it" talk.

210 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:06:59pm

re: #205 freetoken

Archaeology headline of the day:

Caligula's tomb found after police arrest man trying to smuggle statue

Caligula could have used a gun.

BTW, I wonder... who's buried in Caligula's tomb?

Grant

211 freetoken  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:07:01pm

That would have been a good question to ask Esther, cold, tonight.

212 Varek Raith  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:07:21pm

re: #208 wlewisiii

FF1 was obviously the best.

The rest are just sequels.

/What?

Actually...
FF1 was kind of bad...
;)

213 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:07:34pm

re: #205 freetoken

Archaeology headline of the day:

Caligula's tomb found after police arrest man trying to smuggle statue

Caligula could have used a gun.

BTW, I wonder... who's buried in Caligula's tomb?

Might not have been enough. Roman Praetorian Guards were quite well armored.

214 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:07:35pm

re: #203 Dark_Falcon

I get that, but why do the criminals have stronger or better weapons than the good guys? This is a big part of my personal struggle with gun ownership in the USA, today.

215 lazardo  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:07:39pm

re: #193 ProLifeLiberal

Cloud has the hots for Squall.

/don't ask me how I know this

216 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:08:57pm

re: #211 freetoken

That would have been a good question to ask Esther, cold, tonight.

She'd just freeze like a deer caught in the headlights. And when she was told who Caligula was, she'd say you were a pervert.

217 BryanS  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:09:28pm

re: #214 Floral Giraffe

I get that, but why do the criminals have stronger or better weapons than the good guys? This is a big part of my personal struggle with gun ownership in the USA, today.

Because they are criminals.

218 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:10:44pm
219 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:10:51pm

re: #214 Floral Giraffe

I get that, but why do the criminals have stronger or better weapons than the good guys? This is a big part of my personal struggle with gun ownership in the USA, today.

The reason the bad guys have stronger or better weapons than the good guys is because for the good guys the best of all possible situations is to go in and have everybody come out alive, even the bad guys.

On the other hand the bad guy's best possible situation when getting into a gunfight is to get out with only them left alive.

Thus the two sides tend to go in having selected weapons which best suit their respective needs.

///I say this with the confidence of someone one who has BEATEN SWAT 4 on ELITE, BEAN BAG SHOT GUN BLASTS FOR EVERYONE!

220 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:10:57pm

re: #212 Varek Raith

Actually...
FF1 was kind of bad...
;)

So I've heard. I've only played a couple of the later ones.

My favorite game of late was "Rune Factory". Half dungeon crawl and half have to be a successful farmer. And get married. Strange little game & I love it lots.

221 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:11:46pm

re: #214 Floral Giraffe

I get that, but why do the criminals have stronger or better weapons than the good guys? This is a big part of my personal struggle with gun ownership in the USA, today.

generally, they don't anymore, but the advantage still lies with the bad guys because they don't care what they hit with spray and pray shooting...Most high velocity rifle rounds can go through several people then through a house....bad news for bystanders and they know it

222 Varek Raith  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:12:07pm

re: #219 jamesfirecat

The reason the bad guys have stronger or better weapons than the good guys is because for the good guys the best of all possible situations is to go in and have everybody come out alive, even the bad guys.

On the other hand the bad guy's best possible situation when getting into a gunfight is to get out with only them left alive.

Thus the two sides tend to go in having selected weapons which best suit their respective needs.

///I say this with the confidence of someone one who has BEATEN SWAT 4 on ELITE, BEAN BAG SHOT GUN BLASTS FOR EVERYONE!

Big whoop.
I went through the MGS games with just the tranq gun.
:P

223 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:13:00pm

re: #214 Floral Giraffe

I get that, but why do the criminals have stronger or better weapons than the good guys? This is a big part of my personal struggle with gun ownership in the USA, today.

In the case of LA, it was because the LAPD did not want to issue most officers anything more than shotguns with buckshot. The cops got the only rifled slugs they used from that same gun shop. And once again remember that the AKMs used were illegal weapons and the HK-91 used by one of the robbers had been illegally modified. The crooks had better weapons in spite of the law not because of it. Their AKs had been illegally imported.

Not trying to give you a hard time, just trying to state the facts.

224 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:13:47pm

Couple of points. Frankly I think banning 30 round clips wouldn't have much effect. Mental health should be what we should focus on as a society. As should gun purchase waiting periods and thorough background checks on high performance weaponry. Thems the breaks when you live in the 21st century and this is not the 18th century when these laws were made withing the context of muzzle loaded rifles and muskets. Otherwise I still believe in "gun rights" including CCW permits.

I would also like to add that it's a myth to think the Bill of Rights was written around gun ownership. The Constitution does not revolve around the 2nd Amendment. The 2nd Amendment against was written for the benefit of creating a citizen army or militia to provide "security" for this then fledgling nation. It wasn't included to "prevent internal tyranny" since our founding father were quite resolute in the fact that they had achieved utter perfection. Which of course they did not as indicated by the subsequent amendments and the oversight of the US Supreme Court.

225 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:15:07pm

re: #221 albusteve

generally, they don't anymore, but the advantage still lies with the bad guys because they don't care what they hit with spray and pray shooting...Most high velocity rifle rounds can go through several people then through a house...bad news for bystanders and they know it

The bad guys in North Hollywood did care, at least initially. That was much of why they were both so heavily armored, the other reason being to protect themselves from bullet splash when they shot out locks.

226 BishopX  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:15:36pm

re: #214 Floral Giraffe

1: They know they;re more likely to need a big gun at any given time, and so they will be carrying it. Guns are heavy, especially long-arms and ammunition is also heavy. It really sucks to have to lug 15 pounds of gun and ammo around, especially when 99 times out of 100 you won't need it, and 9999 times out of 10,000 you can solve the same problem with 3 pounds of pistol and ammo.

2: Guns are expensive. Governments have other, better things to spend money on.

3: Big guns kill more people. Higher velocity bullets will blow through the target and hit bystanders, missed shots can penetrate walls and kill people you don't know where there. Big guns also fire more bullets (generally). Cops don't like killing ;lots of people, criminals don't care.

227 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:16:56pm

re: #225 Dark_Falcon

The bad guys in North Hollywood did care, at least initially. That was much of why they were both so heavily armored, the other reason being to protect themselves from bullet splash when they shot out locks.

true, but they were an anomaly....I'm thinking typical urban gangsters

228 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:17:50pm

re: #227 albusteve

true, but they were an anomaly...I'm thinking typical urban gangsters

Agreed.

229 lazardo  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:18:49pm

re: #222 Varek Raith

Big whoop.
I went through the MGS games with just the tranq gun.
:P

My little brother would worship you. He's got a fanart of Snake signed by David Hayter framed in his room.

230 BishopX  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:19:32pm

Alright folks, my eyelids have gone from "machine gun" to semi-auto to double action. I think it's time for bed.

Have a good night.

231 Varek Raith  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:19:53pm

re: #229 lazardo

My little brother would worship you. He's got a fanart of Snake signed by David Hayter framed in his room.

Awesome.

232 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:20:18pm

You can buy a P-47 Thunderbolt and fly it all around the country but you can't have operable Browning machine guns on those wings.

233 Varek Raith  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:20:53pm

re: #232 Gus 802

You can buy a P-47 Thunderbolt and fly it all around the country but you can't have operable Browning machine guns on those wings.

Not even for duck hunting???
Harsh, man!
/

234 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:21:11pm

re: #232 Gus 802

You can buy a P-47 Thunderbolt and fly it all around the country but you can't have operable Browning machine guns on those wings.

Aren't their like rules for how you can buy a tank as long as you get the gun removed?

235 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:21:14pm

re: #230 BishopX

Thanks for the interesting posts.

236 lazardo  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:23:06pm

re: #231 Varek Raith

Awesome.

And then my PS3 YellowLighted a few weeks ago.

;_;

237 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:23:12pm

re: #232 Gus 802

You can buy a P-47 Thunderbolt and fly it all around the country but you can't have operable Browning machine guns on those wings.

who needs Brownings when I have a crate of Sidewinders?

238 Varek Raith  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:23:50pm

re: #237 albusteve

who needs Brownings when I have a crate of Sidewinders?

How much you want for em?
I need to do some...uh...hunting.
Yeah, that's it.

239 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:23:54pm

re: #234 jamesfirecat

Aren't their like rules for how you can buy a tank as long as you get the gun removed?

Yeah, all of that has to be neutralized as far as I know. Not sure how that works since there are some operable tank guns and artillery pieces.

# "Dangerous ordnance" means any of the following, except as provided in division (L) of this section:

(1) Any automatic or sawed-off firearm, zip-gun, or ballistic knife; (2) Any explosive device or incendiary device; (3) Nitroglycerin, nitrocellulose, nitrostarch, PETN, cyclonite, TNT, picric acid, and other high explosives; amatol, tritonal, tetrytol, pentolite, pecretol, cyclotol, and other high explosive compositions; plastic explosives; dynamite, blasting gelatin, gelatin dynamite, sensitized ammonium nitrate, liquid-oxygen blasting explosives, blasting powder, and other blasting agents; and any other explosive substance having sufficient brisance or power to be particularly suitable for use as a military explosive, or for use in mining, quarrying, excavating, or demolitions; (4) Any firearm, rocket launcher, mortar, artillery piece, grenade, mine, bomb, torpedo, or similar weapon, designed and manufactured for military purposes, and the ammunition for that weapon; (5) Any firearm muffler or silencer; (6) Any combination of parts that is intended by the owner for use in converting any firearm or other device into a dangerous ordnance.

240 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:24:17pm

re: #238 Varek Raith

How much you want for em?
I need to do some...uh...hunting.
Yeah, that's it.

these are strickly a goose load missile

241 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:24:56pm

re: #196 jamesfirecat

Sorry for long reply time, but I say 8 is better.

Again, their will be no debate. :P

242 Varek Raith  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:25:57pm

re: #241 ProLifeLiberal

Sorry for long reply time, but I say 8 is better.

Again, their will be no debate. :P

Though Sephiroth will always be the awesomest villain.

243 lazardo  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:26:57pm

re: #242 Varek Raith

Though Sephiroth Kefka will always be the awesomest villain.

FTFY

244 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:27:22pm

re: #239 Gus 802

Yeah, all of that has to be neutralized as far as I know. Not sure how that works since there are some operable tank guns and artillery pieces.

it's who you noze...you can license and shoot a quad .50 if you can afford it

245 Varek Raith  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:27:43pm

re: #243 lazardo

FTFY

Bah!

246 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:28:06pm

re: #234 jamesfirecat

Aren't their like rules for how you can buy a tank as long as you get the gun removed?

It has to be disabled, not removed. And there are some states where a live cannon on a Sherman is legal. The bottleneck is ammo for such a gun, which is very hard to make.

As an aside, the demand for semi-auto .50 cal Brownings to be fitted to WWII vehicles such as Jeeps and DUKWs has born great dividends for our nation. Such semi-auto weapons lead users to request and get optics made to mil-spec toughness for them. so when the Army found a need for optics for its .50 cal machine guns, the optics were already designed and being made. The 40-round AR-15/M-16 magazine that many of our soldiers have purchased is another example of private firearms ownership aiding our military.

247 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:28:22pm

re: #243 lazardo

Blasphemy! Sephiroth has the villain theme with the creepy, slow pulsing heart.

248 BryanS  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:29:05pm

Cat ordered to do jury service

Tabby Sal had been entered by Mrs Esposito under the 'pets' section of the last census. "When they ask him guilty or not guilty? What's he supposed to say - miaow?" She said.

Somebody at PETA is working overtime.

249 Opal  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:29:27pm

re: #26 Charles

"What's up with David Frum's left eye?"

Frum explained it:

[Link: www.frumforum.com...]

250 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:29:28pm

re: #232 Gus 802

You can buy a P-47 Thunderbolt and fly it all around the country but you can't have operable Browning machine guns on those wings.

I can't say about the FAA, but as far as ATF is concerned, as long as you paid the tax stamps for those 8 .50" Brownings that are previously registered you'd be perfectly legal. Same thing with the bombs - register them and pay the tax and those destructive devices are perfectly legal under the National Firearms Act of 1934. Most people don't understand that.

251 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:30:01pm

re: #244 albusteve

it's who you noze...you can license and shoot a quad .50 if you can afford it

[Video]

How much did that cost? 400 bucks? You can have a 50 cal on the ground but they're pretty strict about not having anything on aircraft.

252 lazardo  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:30:03pm

re: #247 ProLifeLiberal

Blasphemy! Sephiroth has the villain theme with the creepy, slow pulsing heart.

Kefka is the villain that does not give a shit about you or your lousy band of heroes.

253 Varek Raith  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:30:08pm
254 Kragar  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:30:36pm

re: #222 Varek Raith

Big whoop.
I went through the MGS games with just the tranq gun.
:P

But have you beaten Fallout New Vegas as a pacifist with no kills?

255 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:30:51pm

re: #234 jamesfirecat

Aren't their like rules for how you can buy a tank as long as you get the gun removed?

Easy to own a tank with a gun. Register it and pay the tax. See NFA of 1934 ;) It's called a "destructive device" under that act.

256 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:31:31pm

re: #252 lazardo

And Sephiroth turns 75+ foot long snakes into tree ornaments.

257 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:31:57pm

re: #247 ProLifeLiberal

Blasphemy! Sephiroth has the villain theme with the creepy, slow pulsing heart.

Sephiroth was the best, because of that scene where you see what he did to the Midgard Zolem who would f*** you up right proper if you tried to fight him at that point in the game....

258 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:32:13pm

re: #251 Gus 802

How much did that cost? 400 bucks? You can have a 50 cal on the ground but they're pretty strict about not having anything on aircraft.

mine pop outa the trunk of my Jetta

259 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:32:42pm

re: #252 lazardo

Kefka is the villain that does not give a shit about you or your lousy band of heroes.

I will give Kefka credit for having one amazingly good line.

"Run, run, or you'll be well done!"

260 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:33:10pm

re: #257 jamesfirecat

Yeah, and lets not forget the first theme he has in the game.

Thump Thump Thump Thump

261 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:34:07pm

re: #251 Gus 802

How much did that cost? 400 bucks? You can have a 50 cal on the ground but they're pretty strict about not having anything on aircraft.

$200 tax on top of whatever fair market price is. Now back in 1934 that was a pretty stiff tax; nowadays? Not so much. ;)

262 lazardo  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:36:14pm

re: #256 ProLifeLiberal

re: #257 jamesfirecat

Sephiroth wanted to destroy the world.

Kefka did, and ruled over the wasteland.

263 Varek Raith  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:36:21pm

re: #257 jamesfirecat

Image: time19.jpg

264 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:37:18pm

re: #249 Opal

"What's up with David Frum's left eye?"

Frum explained it:

[Link: www.frumforum.com...]

Funny guy.

265 Varek Raith  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:39:21pm

re: #264 SanFranciscoZionist

Funny guy.

Frum vs. Bale!
;)

266 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:40:57pm

re: #262 lazardo

And even at godhood, Kefka got killed. Pretty bad when the "God" can be be pummeled by a few people. So Kefka got what he wanted and still got beaten with all that power. Advantage: Sephiroth.

267 freetoken  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:41:03pm

Evil scientimists at work:

Researchers aim to resurrect mammoth in five years

Japanese researchers will launch a project this year to resurrect the long-extinct mammoth by using cloning technology to bring the ancient pachyderm back to life in around five years time.

The researchers will try to revive the species by obtaining tissue this summer from the carcass of a mammoth preserved in a Russian research laboratory, the Yomiuri Shimbun reported.

"Preparations to realise this goal have been made," Akira Iritani, leader of the team and a professor emeritus of Kyoto University, told the mass-circulation daily.

Under the plan, the nuclei of mammoth cells will be inserted into an elephant's egg cell from which the nuclei have been removed, to create an embryo containing mammoth genes, the report said.
The embryo will then be inserted into an elephant's uterus in the hope that the animal will eventually give birth to a baby mammoth.

[...]

268 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:41:34pm

I'm going to sign off for the night. Goodnight, all.

269 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:41:58pm

re: #258 albusteve

mine pop outa the trunk of my Jetta

When I was in college, we designed a .50 cal mount that would pop up from the "clamshell" dual facing rear seat area of a station wagon. It was reviewed by the school ROTC commander, who said there was nothing illegal about it, so long as we didn't have the gun.

Of course we never built it, but it was a fun project. Just one of those "now THIS would look neat on film when the bad guys are pursuing our hero and his gal" deals.

My part? Mediate the inevitable arguments, work out some of the gearing necessary, and keep the booze flowing.

270 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:42:11pm

re: #267 freetoken

Evil scientimists at work:

Researchers aim to resurrect mammoth in five years

I think this is how the movie starts...

271 freetoken  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:43:03pm

re: #270 SanFranciscoZionist

I think this is how the movie starts...

It's how it ends that has be worried.

272 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:44:22pm

re: #266 ProLifeLiberal

And even at godhood, Kefka got killed. Pretty bad when the "God" can be be pummeled by a few people. So Kefka got what he wanted and still got beaten with all that power. Advantage: Sephiroth.

Sephiroth's other main advantage is that who he is, is deeply tied into who the PCs are even before they begin the adventure and we first meet them.

This makes him a more thematically interesting villain... not to mention you can have endless fun getting into flame wars over his paternity issues.

(For the record he is totally Vincent's son FYI)

273 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:50:41pm

re: #271 freetoken

It's how it ends that has be worried.

With a lot of fraud charges and arrests? ;) Just checked and he's been at this since 2002.

DNA scholars hope to stock Siberia 'park' with mammoths

274 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:52:18pm

re: #269 ClaudeMonet

When I was in college, we designed a .50 cal mount that would pop up from the "clamshell" dual facing rear seat area of a station wagon. It was reviewed by the school ROTC commander, who said there was nothing illegal about it, so long as we didn't have the gun.

Of course we never built it, but it was a fun project. Just one of those "now THIS would look neat on film when the bad guys are pursuing our hero and his gal" deals.

My part? Mediate the inevitable arguments, work out some of the gearing necessary, and keep the booze flowing.

ah, yes....booze and firearms....damned rules

275 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:52:18pm

re: #268 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to sign off for the night. Goodnight, all.

G'night, sir.

276 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:53:56pm

re: #273 Gus 802

With a lot of fraud charges and arrests? ;) Just checked and he's been at this since 2002.

DNA scholars hope to stock Siberia 'park' with mammoths

yeah, forget about curing cancer

277 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:54:22pm

re: #272 jamesfirecat

I thought the fact of his more cool and calculating demeanor made him a better villain then Kefka. The fact he murdered of one of your party members to actively try and stop Holy is just one example. Sephiroth is a very creepy, effective villain. His whole Agent Smith thing is paranoia fuel on top.

278 freetoken  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:54:46pm

re: #273 Gus 802

It's obviously a rather ambitious project.

Yet... if he ever succeeds it will certainly be headline news.

279 jamesfirecat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:54:55pm

re: #276 albusteve

yeah, forget about curing cancer

I'm still waiting for my jetpack.

280 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:56:40pm

re: #279 jamesfirecat

I'm still waiting for my jetpack.

Heck with the jetpacks, I want my aircar.

281 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:57:14pm

re: #279 jamesfirecat

I'm still waiting for my jetpack.

didn't one come with your car?
[Link: www.boncherry.com...]

282 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:57:18pm

re: #278 freetoken

It's obviously a rather ambitious project.

Yet... if he ever succeeds it will certainly be headline news.

I'll say. Looks like it goes back even further -- into the mid 90s. Plus the "Mammoth park" angle sounds suspicious. Time will tell if they can do it.

283 freetoken  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:59:21pm

re: #282 Gus 802

Plus the "Mammoth park" angle sounds suspicious.

Well, at least no one is going to build a park about a big boat and a guy 5000 years ago... oh... wait...

284 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:00:54pm

re: #283 freetoken

Well, at least no one is going to build a park about a big boat and a guy 5000 years ago... oh... wait...

How old is this Mammoth carcass?

285 lazardo  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:04:38pm

re: #266 ProLifeLiberal

And even at godhood, Kefka got killed. Pretty bad when the "God" can be be pummeled by a few people. So Kefka got what he wanted and still got beaten with all that power. Advantage: Sephiroth.

That's only because he's the main villain. All of Sephiroth's pretty looks (and all the length of his sword) couldn't save him either.

Besides, Cloud was too stingy to Phoenix Down Aerith, leading to the tears of a million fanboys.

286 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:05:13pm

re: #283 freetoken

Well, at least no one is going to build a park about a big boat and a guy 5000 years ago... oh... wait...

ouch

287 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:06:10pm

re: #274 albusteve

ah, yes...booze and firearms...damned rules

No firearms involved. It was one of those late night conjectures ("Wouldn't it be cool if...") that can happen when a film major, a physics major, a photographer with engineering skills, and a few other oddballs are drinking good booze.

288 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:06:17pm

re: #284 Gus 802

How old is this Mammoth carcass?

not very?
[Link: loyalkng.com...]

289 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:07:07pm

re: #288 albusteve

not very?
[Link: loyalkng.com...]

40k years

290 freetoken  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:07:51pm
How old is this Mammoth carcass?

I'm not sure. That last Mammoths were miniature Mammoths (heh, now there's an oxymoron) that lived on an island off of Siberia that went extinct around 1650BC.

He's probably though going to use the full size version, which would have gone extinct considerably before that.

291 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:09:15pm

re: #287 ClaudeMonet

No firearms involved. It was one of those late night conjectures ("Wouldn't it be cool if...") that can happen when a film major, a physics major, a photographer with engineering skills, and a few other oddballs are drinking good booze.

I would love to fire a M2....just let me whack away for a few hundred rounds....I've never shot anything full auto and if I only had one gun, that would be it

292 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:10:00pm

re: #290 freetoken

I'm not sure. That last Mammoths were miniature Mammoths (heh, now there's an oxymoron) that lived on an island off of Siberia that went extinct around 1650BC.

He's probably though going to use the full size version, which would have gone extinct considerably before that.

some pics
[Link: ngm.nationalgeographic.com...]

293 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:10:06pm

Good Evening/Morning all!

How is everyone?

294 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:10:31pm

re: #285 lazardo

I'm dead certain that a previous Final Fantasy before 7 had characters trying to heal a terminally injured person with Phoenix Downs, and it not working, so there is a precident.

And again, Sephiroth didn't quite get to being a god. Kefka on the other hand did. Kefka was too incompetant to keep it. Probably as a result of being bat guano crazy.

295 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:12:52pm

re: #292 albusteve

some pics
[Link: ngm.nationalgeographic.com...]

wow, this link says the mother fed it her feces to provide digestive bacterias and could provide her DNA....wow

296 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:14:57pm

OT: I hear the slogan all the time that "Obama is trying to control every aspect of our lives."

Can anyone here give me a serious example of some aspect of their life now controlled by Obama that wasn't under govt control two years ago?

297 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:17:13pm

re: #296 palomino

OT: I hear the slogan all the time that "Obama is trying to control every aspect of our lives."

Can anyone here give me a serious example of some aspect of their life now controlled by Obama that wasn't under govt control two years ago?

It's the evil mind rays, manipulating us. They are designed to make sure we can't remember, can't add 2 + 2, and they prime us to respond to certain coded rhetoric.

I hear there is a new special gold plating one can put over the tin foil to make the hats effective against the Obama Rays.

///

298 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:18:39pm

re: #296 palomino

OT: I hear the slogan all the time that "Obama is trying to control every aspect of our lives."

Can anyone here give me a serious example of some aspect of their life now controlled by Obama that wasn't under govt control two years ago?

he's trying?....yet to succeed
baffoonery....but you gotta keep one eye on those sneaky libs

299 Kragar  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:19:10pm

re: #296 palomino

OT: I hear the slogan all the time that "Obama is trying to control every aspect of our lives."

Can anyone here give me a serious example of some aspect of their life now controlled by Obama that wasn't under govt control two years ago?

[applause]

300 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:19:25pm

Does anyone really need a Mammoth?

301 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:20:03pm

re: #297 ggt

It's the evil mind rays, manipulating us. They are designed to make sure we can't remember, can't add 2 + 2, and they prime us to respond to certain coded rhetoric.

I hear there is a new special gold plating one can put over the tin foil to make the hats effective against the Obama Rays.

///

Yes, it's just about that real. And yet the rhetoric goes on that Obama wants to control your life and fundamentally change all parts of American society. Fear rules, and everybody runs to buy a gun or more ammo.

302 freetoken  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:20:13pm

re: #300 ggt

Does anyone really need a Mammoth?

Does anyone really need an iPod?

303 Kragar  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:20:25pm

re: #300 ggt

Does anyone really need a Mammoth?

Who doesn't need a Mammoth?

304 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:20:47pm

re: #301 palomino

Yes, it's just about that real. And yet the rhetoric goes on that Obama wants to control your life and fundamentally change all parts of American society. Fear rules, and everybody runs to buy a gun or more ammo.

more ammo is a bad thing?

/:)

305 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:21:24pm

re: #303 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Who doesn't need a Mammoth?

a mammoth in every pot!

306 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:21:34pm

re: #302 freetoken

Does anyone really need an iPod?

YES, I need my iPod. I don't necessarily need the phone that comes with it . . .

307 JAFO  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:21:42pm

re: #303 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Who doesn't need a Mammoth?

How good are they BBQ'd?

308 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:22:00pm

re: #298 albusteve

he's trying?...yet to succeed
baffoonery...but you gotta keep one eye on those sneaky libs

Those pesky liberals are hiding everywhere, just waiting to turn us into New Yorkistan. What a crock.

309 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:22:34pm

re: #303 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Aww, there are no pictures of Mammoth Cavalry in Google Images.

310 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:22:47pm

re: #301 palomino

Yes, it's just about that real. And yet the rhetoric goes on that Obama wants to control your life and fundamentally change all parts of American society. Fear rules, and everybody runs to buy a gun or more ammo.

heh, I don't know about you, but I'm revolting

311 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:23:10pm

re: #308 palomino

Those pesky liberals are hiding everywhere, just waiting to turn us into New Yorkistan. What a crock.

Haven't you been paying attention? Not New Yorkistan, CHICAGO.

WE are are living the Chicago Way now.

/half snark/half sarc --being from Chicagoland and all. . . . .

312 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:24:12pm

re: #303 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Who doesn't need a Mammoth?

How much does it cost a month to feed and board one? Can you ride one? What would a Saddle cost? I guess I could saw off a tusk or two and sell the ivory . . .

313 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:24:44pm

Well. Since Lyuba is 40,000 years old than Don McLeroy nor the Texas State Board of Education will have none of it!

//

314 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:25:21pm

re: #312 ggt

How much does it cost a month to feed and board one? Can you ride one? What would a Saddle cost? I guess I could saw off a tusk or two and sell the ivory . . .

who dares to break one to a saddle?

315 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:26:17pm

re: #310 albusteve

heh, I don't know about you, but I'm revolting

I am too much of the time.

The Tea Party "Revolution" is made up of middle/upper middle class older white folks who already own a somewhat disproportionately large segment of America's wealth. Some revolution, huh?

316 Kragar  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:26:22pm

re: #309 ProLifeLiberal

Aww, there are no pictures of Mammoth Cavalry in Google Images.

Obviously you need to look a bit more;

Image: Mamm1dflt.jpg

317 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:26:49pm

re: #314 albusteve

who dares to break one to a saddle?

I'll bet there is a Texan or two . . .

If they are basically elephants, they, if well fed, should be rather nice . . . .

318 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:27:54pm

re: #316 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Obviously you need to look a bit more;

Image: Mamm1dflt.jpg

Yeah, they don't need all that ivory.

319 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:28:21pm

re: #311 ggt

Haven't you been paying attention? Not New Yorkistan, CHICAGO.

WE are are living the Chicago Way now.

/half snark/half sarc --being from Chicagoland and all. . . .

I thought about that, but Chicagostan just doesn't have the same ring to it.

The Chicago Way thing is laughable. Like Obama is some sort of gangster thug. Moronic bs.

320 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:28:29pm

re: #315 palomino

I am too much of the time.

The Tea Party "Revolution" is made up of middle/upper middle class older white folks who already own a somewhat disproportionately large segment of America's wealth. Some revolution, huh?

when I see an old lady on the street, I mug her just on principle

321 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:29:10pm

re: #320 albusteve

when I see an old lady on the street, I mug her just on principle

Now there's a principle I can get behind.

322 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:29:35pm

re: #319 palomino

I thought about that, but Chicagostan just doesn't have the same ring to it.

The Chicago Way thing is laughable. Like Obama is some sort of gangster thug. Moronic bs.

You ever lived here?

323 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:30:07pm

re: #319 palomino

I thought about that, but Chicagostan just doesn't have the same ring to it.

The Chicago Way thing is laughable. Like Obama is some sort of gangster thug. Moronic bs.

there is absolutely a Chicago Way....but I don't think it wears well nationally

324 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:31:46pm

re: #321 palomino

Now there's a principle I can get behind.

GIMME THAT, YOU FILTHY HAVE IT ALL!

mwahahaha

325 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:31:51pm

re: #323 albusteve

there is absolutely a Chicago Way...but I don't think it wears well nationally

It is fun to watch.

326 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:34:29pm

re: #315 palomino

I am too much of the time.

The Tea Party "Revolution" is made up of middle/upper middle class older white folks who already own a somewhat disproportionately large segment of America's wealth. Some revolution, huh?

I think that is the driving force behind the original idea. Too bad it got co-opted by the whackos.

327 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:34:39pm

re: #322 ggt

You ever lived here?

I know your city is corrupt, maybe even worse than New Orleans and most other cities. But the idea that this reflects on Obama, or that his values were forged in that crucible, is way off base.

328 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:35:50pm

re: #327 palomino

I know your city is corrupt, maybe even worse than New Orleans and most other cities. But the idea that this reflects on Obama, or that his values were forged in that crucible, is way off base.

The piper he paid is from these parts. . . . . .

Politics is politics.

329 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:36:17pm

re: #323 albusteve

there is absolutely a Chicago Way...but I don't think it wears well nationally

the chicago way isn't exactly the obama way. hell, he's from hawaii or Kenya or some other place anyway.

330 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:38:12pm

re: #326 ggt

I think that is the driving force behind the original idea. Too bad it got co-opted by the whackos.

Seemed like whackos from the start. How long before they were claiming that Obama was a tyrant "destroying America irrevocably?" Like three days after the inauguration. TP is a grievance organization, no real solutions.

332 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:38:30pm

re: #319 palomino

I thought about that, but Chicagostan just doesn't have the same ring to it.

The Chicago Way thing is laughable. Like Obama is some sort of gangster thug. Moronic bs.

I don't think he ever was a made thug, more like an errand boy for the city heavies...Chicago style politics work for Chicago....people don't give a damn what's going on if there are timely services and shit gets done....read Mike Royko's book about John Daley, 'Boss'....funny as hell and informative...Chicago is literally run like a fifedom

333 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:39:02pm

re: #328 ggt

The piper he paid is from these parts. . . .

Politics is politics.

Doesn't make him Al Capone, or even Richard Daley.

334 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:39:46pm

re: #333 palomino

Doesn't make him Al Capone, or even Richard Daley.

no, just a Chicago politician.

335 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:40:04pm
336 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:40:44pm

re: #334 ggt

no, just a Chicago politician.

Which is really how much worse than a NYC pol, a Mississippi pol, a TX pol, a Cali pol, blah blah?

337 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:41:30pm

re: #335 Gus 802

FRONTLINE | Preview "Are We Safer?" | PBS


[Video]

Dick Cheney said we are (and then said we aren't). That's all I need to know.

338 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:41:33pm

re: #336 palomino

Which is really how much worse than a NYC pol, a Mississippi pol, a TX pol, a Cali pol, blah blah?

Not necessarily worse, just a different flavor.

339 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:42:09pm

re: #335 Gus 802

FRONTLINE | Preview "Are We Safer?" | PBS


[Video]

safety vs freedom.

Which do people reallly want?

340 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:42:14pm

re: #337 palomino

Dick Cheney said we are (and then said we aren't). That's all I need to know.

Don't worry. All that data will ONLY be used to prevent terrorism.

//

341 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:42:39pm

re: #338 ggt

Not necessarily worse, just a different flavor.

Different flavors are good. We had a lot of southern flavor (Bush, Clinton, Bush) so might as well try something else for a while.

342 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:43:02pm

re: #327 palomino

I know your city is corrupt, maybe even worse than New Orleans and most other cities. But the idea that this reflects on Obama, or that his values were forged in that crucible, is way off base.

I disagree....he grew up with it, he is steeped in it, understands how it works, was groomed for the US senate etc and so was his wife....but I don't think BO is corrupt....my attitude has softened in the last two years, but I just don't like the guy, and his deep Chicago roots are one reason...he hasn't broken anything yet...govt is way more than POTUS, his power and even influence has it's limits....people go crazy, I'm just ornery toward him

343 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:43:19pm

re: #339 ggt

safety vs freedom.

Which do people reallly want?

Uhh, can't we try for both?

344 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:44:07pm

re: #339 ggt

safety vs freedom.

Which do people reallly want?

Safety plus freedom divided by two I suppose. Although if I had to choose between a 100 percent security state and freedom I'd choose freedom. Of course Maryland was always a bit of a police state.

345 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:44:09pm

re: #343 palomino

Uhh, can't we try for both?

There has to be a balance, you can't have 100% of both.

346 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:45:22pm

re: #342 albusteve

I disagree...he grew up with it, he is steeped in it, understands how it works, was groomed for the US senate etc and so was his wife...but I don't think BO is corrupt...my attitude has softened in the last two years, but I just don't like the guy, and his deep Chicago roots are one reason...he hasn't broken anything yet...govt is way more than POTUS, his power and even influence has it's limits...people go crazy, I'm just ornery toward him

I actually like him, I just wish he'd had more time in national politics (time to distance himself from the Chicago handlers) before running for office.

347 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:45:31pm

re: #342 albusteve

I disagree...he grew up with it, he is steeped in it, understands how it works, was groomed for the US senate etc and so was his wife...but I don't think BO is corrupt...my attitude has softened in the last two years, but I just don't like the guy, and his deep Chicago roots are one reason...he hasn't broken anything yet...govt is way more than POTUS, his power and even influence has it's limits...people go crazy, I'm just ornery toward him

Fair enough. Just hard for me to entertain the idea, that with all the political corruption across our great land, that Obama's part-time geographical location, signals any singular evil or even unusual amorality.

348 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:45:58pm

re: #331 Gus 802

FRONTLINE "Are We Safer?" | Sneak Peek: Tracking Baltimore's Motorists | PBS


[Video]

not up on the net yet....ever surf PBS?....lots of goodies for your tax dollars
[Link: video.pbs.org...]

349 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:46:48pm

re: #348 albusteve

not up on the net yet...ever surf PBS?...lots of goodies for your tax dollars
[Link: video.pbs.org...]

Yep. Been there before and watched more than a few.

350 engineer cat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:46:59pm

if it were even remotely true that obama was a "chicago style" politician, the republican party would be whimpering in a corner in a fetal position right now, too scared to even think of standing up

as it is, obama is rather gentlemanly toward the republican party, which is suffering from self inflicted wounds much more than from any democrat

351 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:47:19pm

re: #348 albusteve

not up on the net yet...ever surf PBS?...lots of goodies for your tax dollars
[Link: video.pbs.org...]

LOTS of goodies at the National Parks Service, Federal Reserve, National Archives --even the freakin' CIA.

Amazing really, I have to wonder if other countries have so much at their disposal?

352 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:47:31pm

re: #333 palomino

Doesn't make him Al Capone, or even Richard Daley.

as a Dem you cannot make the state senate without Daley's blessing....he was that powerful

353 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:48:15pm

re: #350 engineer dog

if it were even remotely true that obama was a "chicago style" politician, the republican party would be whimpering in a corner in a fetal position right now, too scared to even think of standing up

as it is, obama is rather gentlemanly toward the republican party, which is suffering from self inflicted wounds much more than from any democrat

Oh, you see the Chicago Way is bipartisan. All our politicans go to jail regardless of party affiliation.

354 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:48:34pm

re: #351 ggt

LOTS of goodies at the National Parks Service, Federal Reserve, National Archives --even the freakin' CIA.

Amazing really, I have to wonder if other countries have so much at their disposal?

Most European countries would.

355 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:48:36pm

re: #346 ggt

I actually like him, I just wish he'd had more time in national politics (time to distance himself from the Chicago handlers) before running for office.

Funny thing about timing the presidency. Obama saw his shot in 2008. Even though he's young, he'd have been wrong to skip it and start planning for a decade or two from now instead. Who knows what would happen to his stock? And sitting around the Senate getting moldy isn't the best strategy (ask McCain, Dole and the many more senators who don't get past the primaries).

People like Nixon are rare. You really just get one shot, gotta take it.

356 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:49:43pm

re: #348 albusteve

not up on the net yet...ever surf PBS?...lots of goodies for your tax dollars
[Link: video.pbs.org...]

I thought it was going to be on "motorists" as in traffic. Saw that on my Youtube subscription list and it didn't have a description.

357 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:50:43pm

re: #355 palomino

Funny thing about timing the presidency. Obama saw his shot in 2008. Even though he's young, he'd have been wrong to skip it and start planning for a decade or two from now instead. Who knows what would happen to his stock? And sitting around the Senate getting moldy isn't the best strategy (ask McCain, Dole and the many more senators who don't get past the primaries).

People like Nixon are rare. You really just get one shot, gotta take it.

too bad, I think he could have done more with more experience. As it is, he is going down in history as our first black POTUS, without any other major accomplishments. I think he could have been known for more than the color of his skin.

358 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:52:10pm

re: #336 palomino

Which is really how much worse than a NYC pol, a Mississippi pol, a TX pol, a Cali pol, blah blah?

some of the most outrageous, colorful political scams ever dreamed up come out of Chicago....these guys are world class nepotists, grifters, cheaters and con artists....there is a whole lot of truth as to how many times a dead person can vote....there is a reality to all that cliche and it's been going on since day one...there is a reason why gangsters flourished there back in the golden years

359 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:52:28pm

re: #352 albusteve

as a Dem you cannot make the state senate without Daley's blessing...he was that powerful

OK, so Daley was powerful and gave Obama the go-ahead. So what? Does that taint all Dems in IL?

Either way Obama is hardly a Neanderthal or tough guy like the Daleys. Will never forget the images of Daley (Sr?) at the 1968 Dem convention. While a Senator complains about the police going wild outdoors, Daley screams at him, in full view of all cameras, to "get the fuck off the stage" and worse. That ain't Obama.

360 engineer cat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:52:28pm

some historian i read tells a very compelling story about martin luther king and mayor daley

it seems that mlk, no fool politically by a long shot, had begun to get his attack on institutionalized racism in municipalities around the country up to a fine pitch of effectiveness after a few years. the thing is, he knew that in most places it wouldn't be hard to poke at the city machine to get it to overreact, which would then cause it to become vulnerable, especially to national media pressure - remember those pictures of sheriff bull connor with the dogs?

well, when he tried it in chicago it was a different story. daley was way ahead of him, and he showed mlk who could do a better job of being sun tzu and leaving your enemy confused and swinging at shadows

361 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:54:01pm

re: #359 palomino

OK, so Daley was powerful and gave Obama the go-ahead. So what? Does that taint all Dems in IL?

Either way Obama is hardly a Neanderthal or tough guy like the Daleys. Will never forget the images of Daley (Sr?) at the 1968 Dem convention. While a Senator complains about the police going wild outdoors, Daley screams at him, in full view of all cameras, to "get the fuck off the stage" and worse. That ain't Obama.

Because he is a gentleman, he is somehow less a product of the Chicago Way?

362 engineer cat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:54:27pm

re: #353 ggt

Oh, you see the Chicago Way is bipartisan. All our politicans go to jail regardless of party affiliation.

yeah, but it isn't about democrats or republicans. it's about really knowing how to cut your opponent's balls off while looking like you've been spending your week opening orphanages

have you ever read robert caro on lbj?

363 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:54:36pm

Seriously though. We can't assume that every politician from Chicago is corrupt. Another thing too is that Obama really isn't a Chicago politician but an Illinois politician. This country is dotted with corruption and believe it or not both Chicago and Illinois are not the most corrupt according to recent DOJ data.

364 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:54:54pm

re: #357 ggt

too bad, I think he could have done more with more experience. As it is, he is going down in history as our first black POTUS, without any other major accomplishments. I think he could have been known for more than the color of his skin.

What were you hoping he'd accomplish?

You may not like them, but health care reform and ending DADT are big accomplishments. Every Dem president since Truman tried and failed with health care.

365 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:55:34pm

re: #346 ggt

I actually like him, I just wish he'd had more time in national politics (time to distance himself from the Chicago handlers) before running for office.

yeah, and even then he does not seem to have a mentor....he's behind the curve with geopolitics, but as I say, he hasn't fucked anything up too bad yet...I could care less what our image is and how he's affected it....when it matters, I'll have an opinion, like Afghanistan

366 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:55:45pm

re: #362 engineer dog

yeah, but it isn't about democrats or republicans. it's about really knowing how to cut your opponent's balls off while looking like you've been spending your week opening orphanages

have you ever read robert caro on lbj?

Oh yeah, I read the second book during the last election. Read them backwards, almost finished with the first now. Get's damned hard to read, wanna wash my hand with every page turn.

367 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:56:26pm

re: #363 Gus 802

Seriously though. We can't assume that every politician from Chicago is corrupt. Another thing too is that Obama really isn't a Chicago politician but an Illinois politician. This country is dotted with corruption and believe it or not both Chicago and Illinois are not the most corrupt according to recent DOJ data.

The difference is really semantics, IMHO.

368 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:57:38pm

re: #365 albusteve

yeah, and even then he does not seem to have a mentor...he's behind the curve with geopolitics, but as I say, he hasn't fucked anything up too bad yet...I could care less what our image is and how he's affected it...when it matters, I'll have an opinion, like Afghanistan

I agree.

369 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:58:02pm

re: #351 ggt

LOTS of goodies at the National Parks Service, Federal Reserve, National Archives --even the freakin' CIA.

Amazing really, I have to wonder if other countries have so much at their disposal?

full length vids?...please say yes

370 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:58:24pm

re: #367 ggt

The difference is really semantics, IMHO.

Could be. I mean, look at New Jersey and all of the arrests from previous years. There were many. Many people are still angling for Gov. Christie to make a run for the White House. We certainly can't judge Christie based on New Jersey's history.

371 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:58:31pm

re: #358 albusteve

some of the most outrageous, colorful political scams ever dreamed up come out of Chicago...these guys are world class nepotists, grifters, cheaters and con artists...there is a whole lot of truth as to how many times a dead person can vote...there is a reality to all that cliche and it's been going on since day one...there is a reason why gangsters flourished there back in the golden years

Sure, I accept all that. But if Bobby Jindal gets elected Prez, does it really make sense to start talking about Huey Long and the long line of neer-do-wells in that state's political history? Louisiana might even have Chitown beat.

372 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:58:58pm

re: #356 Gus 802

I thought it was going to be on "motorists" as in traffic. Saw that on my Youtube subscription list and it didn't have a description.

rickrolled by PBS?

373 engineer cat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:59:48pm

to put it simply, i don't think obama is a chicago pol because i feel that he is the complete opposite of an effective political gut fighter - i think he is a laughably inexperienced academic type who is barely beginning to learn the realities of politics

and i say that as a supporter

374 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:00:15pm

re: #371 palomino

Sure, I accept all that. But if Bobby Jindal gets elected Prez, does it really make sense to start talking about Huey Long and the long line of neer-do-wells in that state's political history? Louisiana might even have Chitown beat.

Both cities have a long and wonderful Jazz history . . .:0

375 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:01:43pm

re: #373 engineer dog

to put it simply, i don't think obama is a chicago pol because i feel that he is the complete opposite of an effective political gut fighter - i think he is a laughably inexperienced academic type who is barely beginning to learn the realities of politics

and i say that as a supporter

I just hope it doesn't adversely affect his health. His wrist looked way too skinny during the Tucson speech. Kinda freakin' worried me. His family needs him to be well for a long time to come.

376 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:02:09pm

re: #359 palomino

OK, so Daley was powerful and gave Obama the go-ahead. So what? Does that taint all Dems in IL?

Either way Obama is hardly a Neanderthal or tough guy like the Daleys. Will never forget the images of Daley (Sr?) at the 1968 Dem convention. While a Senator complains about the police going wild outdoors, Daley screams at him, in full view of all cameras, to "get the fuck off the stage" and worse. That ain't Obama.

Daley Sr was before BOs time....just sayin that if that were the case, it would be true....I'm certain Daley would have approved of BOs rise to the state senate....read that sordid story

377 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:02:19pm

re: #369 albusteve

full length vids?...please say yes

Been a while, I can't remember.

378 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:02:50pm

re: #361 ggt

Because he is a gentleman, he is somehow less a product of the Chicago Way?

Not exactly. I just don't think it makes sense to lump him in with a group of clear thugs and crooks by mere association. Not a huge fan of guilt by association. Let him be judged for who he is, not some preconception based on an inadequate definer like his hometown. It's shorthand, dispositive of nothing.

Some of our worst and best presidents have come from (fill in the blank). Ultimately meaningless.

379 lazardo  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:02:57pm

re: #294 ProLifeLiberal

I'm dead certain that a previous Final Fantasy before 7 had characters trying to heal a terminally injured person with Phoenix Downs, and it not working, so there is a precident.

And again, Sephiroth didn't quite get to being a god. Kefka on the other hand did. Kefka was too incompetant to keep it. Probably as a result of being bat guano crazy.

That's what made him so memorable.

/gamin' in another window, sorry for slow

380 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:05:24pm

re: #378 palomino

Not exactly. I just don't think it makes sense to lump him in with a group of clear thugs and crooks by mere association. Not a huge fan of guilt by association. Let him be judged for who he is, not some preconception based on an inadequate definer like his hometown. It's shorthand, dispositive of nothing.

Some of our worst and best presidents have come from (fill in the blank). Ultimately meaningless.

Rahm Emmanuel, the Daleys and the current crop of Chicago politicians aren't exactly what I would call clear thugs, & crooks. But they are still thugs and crooks.

Around here we don't talk about Daley Sr. and Capone. They are old news.

381 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:07:42pm

re: #380 ggt

Rahm Emmanuel, the Daleys and the current crop of Chicago politicians aren't exactly what I would call clear thugs, & crooks. But they are still thugs and crooks.

Around here we don't talk about Daley Sr. and Capone. They are old news.

Still, just doesn't seem fair to paint Obama with some broad brush based largely on the accident of the city he wound up in.

Have you seen aspects of the Chicago Way in his governance? He hardly seems Nixonian.

382 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:08:25pm

re: #371 palomino

Sure, I accept all that. But if Bobby Jindal gets elected Prez, does it really make sense to start talking about Huey Long and the long line of neer-do-wells in that state's political history? Louisiana might even have Chitown beat.

not really, but Chicago has institutionalized corruption...it's part of the fabric of American politics...another is NM where I live, same exact thing on a smaller scale...corruption out here is generally accepted as business as usual...I don't mind so much as long as the corruption does not involve murder and mayhem and it pretty much doesn't in Chicago...but Chicago is a fabulous gold mine, there for the taking....you can inspect manhole covers and make 200k a year with heavy perks

383 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:08:35pm

re: #381 palomino

Still, just doesn't seem fair to paint Obama with some broad brush based largely on the accident of the city he wound up in.

Have you seen aspects of the Chicago Way in his governance? He hardly seems Nixonian.

You'd have to live here to really understand my point-of-view. I don't think we are going to agree on this.

384 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:10:05pm

re: #381 palomino

Still, just doesn't seem fair to paint Obama with some broad brush based largely on the accident of the city he wound up in.

Have you seen aspects of the Chicago Way in his governance? He hardly seems Nixonian.

trust me, he digs the affiliation....it's a badge

385 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:10:16pm

re: #382 albusteve

not really, but Chicago has institutionalized corruption...it's part of the fabric of American politics...another is NM where I live, same exact thing on a smaller scale...corruption out here is generally accepted as business as usual...I don't mind so much as long as the corruption does not involve murder and mayhem and it pretty much doesn't in Chicago...but Chicago is a fabulous gold mine, there for the taking...you can inspect manhole covers and make 200k a year with heavy perks

OK, if Chicago and Louisiana and NM are all havens for corruption, maybe we can start assuming it's the norm rather than the exception. I know Chicago is a particularly rough town, but maybe part of its "success" is just that it has better p.r.

386 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:12:06pm

re: #383 ggt

You'd have to live here to really understand my point-of-view. I don't think we are going to agree on this.

So Obama is inherently corrupt and his Chicago-ness will always affect his governance?

I keep asking for specifics, like what hasn't Obama accomplished. And how has the Chicago Way affected his presidency, and you tell me it's a secret Chicago thing. Huh?

387 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:13:54pm

re: #384 albusteve

trust me, he digs the affiliation...it's a badge

but does he really govern like a tough guy? a chicagoan? If anything, he could probably use more backbone some of the time. His veneer is certainly more Hawaii cool than Chicago skullcrusher.

388 Gus  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:14:18pm

Good night.

389 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:15:37pm

re: #386 palomino

So Obama is inherently corrupt and his Chicago-ness will always affect his governance?

I keep asking for specifics, like what hasn't Obama accomplished. And how has the Chicago Way affected his presidency, and you tell me it's a secret Chicago thing. Huh?

I think all politicians are inherently corrupt --it's the nature of the beast. Yes, Chicago-ness will affect his governance -- for good and for bad.

No it's not a secret Chicago thing. It's just what it is.

No, I'm not going into specifics because it is 1am where I am and I'm not awake enough to give you a good debate.

suffice it to say, we aren't going to agree, it's a Chicago-thing.

After saying all that, I would like to know if you have ever been to Chicago. If not, I strongly urge you to visit because it is truly a Great City.

390 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:16:08pm

re: #385 palomino

OK, if Chicago and Louisiana and NM are all havens for corruption, maybe we can start assuming it's the norm rather than the exception. I know Chicago is a particularly rough town, but maybe part of its "success" is just that it has better p.r.

Chicago is "the city that works" and Daley was a master of getting it done....makes Rudi look like a neophyte....you give dems campaign money and you land a lucrative garbage contract....they wrote the book on all that inane, boring stuff....voters don't give a shit until the garbage piles up, then you can't get a job at all in the city, ever again....personna non grata...hahaha!

391 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:17:53pm

re: #389 ggt

I think all politicians are inherently corrupt --it's the nature of the beast. Yes, Chicago-ness will affect his governance -- for good and for bad.

No it's not a secret Chicago thing. It's just what it is.

No, I'm not going into specifics because it is 1am where I am and I'm not awake enough to give you a good debate.

suffice it to say, we aren't going to agree, it's a Chicago-thing.

After saying all that, I would like to know if you have ever been to Chicago. If not, I strongly urge you to visit because it is truly a Great City.

Yeah, but I've only spent a week there. Don't get the whole Chicago thing, and I've heard it from relatives who live there too. Obama just seems to me a pragmatist trying to forge some solutions, not some sort of partisan crook bonecrusher.

392 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:18:00pm

re: #386 palomino

So Obama is inherently corrupt and his Chicago-ness will always affect his governance?

I keep asking for specifics, like what hasn't Obama accomplished. And how has the Chicago Way affected his presidency, and you tell me it's a secret Chicago thing. Huh?

it's on the inside..we'll never know, maybe not fair but it's just assumed....I don't think BO is corrupt....his job is much bigger now

393 engineer cat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:20:41pm

re: #364 palomino

What were you hoping he'd accomplish?

You may not like them, but health care reform and ending DADT are big accomplishments. Every Dem president since Truman tried and failed with health care.

actually, i think his record so far is pretty substantial. people seem to forget that the atmosphere of negative assessment of obama's presidency is almost exactly like what people were saying about clinton and reagan at the same point in their presidencies

394 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:20:58pm

re: #391 palomino

Yeah, but I've only spent a week there. Don't get the whole Chicago thing, and I've heard it from relatives who live there too. Obama just seems to me a pragmatist trying to forge some solutions, not some sort of partisan crook bonecrusher.

Chicago rivals NYC in every way but size imo....just so close they squeak anyway....an awesome town

395 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:22:34pm

re: #392 albusteve

it's on the inside..we'll never know, maybe not fair but it's just assumed...I don't think BO is corrupt...his job is much bigger now

Just hard for me to contextualize Obama as more or less corrupt than previous presidents, since Nixon anyway.

Bush was supposed to be the end of America. Now Obama is supposed to be that.

396 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:24:50pm

re: #393 engineer dog

actually, i think his record so far is pretty substantial. people seem to forget that the atmosphere of negative assessment of obama's presidency is almost exactly like what people were saying about clinton and reagan at the same point in their presidencies

True, and I think his approval ratings are at least as good as Clinton or Reagan at this point in their terms. But Obama's got an even bigger economic mess to deal with, and recovery will likely be slow. It's really the only issue that hurts Obama much in 2012, but it's a BIG issue.

397 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:25:55pm

re: #392 albusteve

it's on the inside..we'll never know, maybe not fair but it's just assumed...I don't think BO is corrupt...his job is much bigger now

Get real, he may not be overtly corrupt, but you don't get to the top of anything without paying the piper. You don't get to be POTUS from Chicago without paying substantially.

The Resko home buying deal, Michelle's cush job etc. etc. We hashed it all out in 2008 here. Was any of it earth-shattering? No. Rumors are still flying about Blagohairs trial and what info he is withholding. Nothing will come out that will jeopardize the Presidency. WE can bitch and moan about past corrupt presidents, the the fact is we not damage the reputation of the president. Obama is gold-plated now, as are past presidents.

History is written by the victors.

398 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:27:31pm

re: #394 albusteve

Chicago rivals NYC in every way but size imo...just so close they squeak anyway...an awesome town


Great cities both, but like Randy Newman says and with all the baggage he means, "I love LA" While midwesterners and northeasterners are shoveling snow now we're walking around in shorts.

399 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:28:30pm

re: #397 ggt

Get real, he may not be overtly corrupt, but you don't get to the top of anything without paying the piper. You don't get to be POTUS from Chicago without paying substantially.

The Resko home buying deal, Michelle's cush job etc. etc. We hashed it all out in 2008 here. Was any of it earth-shattering? No. Rumors are still flying about Blagohairs trial and what info he is withholding. Nothing will come out that will jeopardize the Presidency. WE can bitch and moan about past corrupt presidents, the the fact is we not damage the reputation of the president. Obama is gold-plated now, as are past presidents.

History is written by the victors.

OK, most past presidents. The fact is we will not damage the reputation of a sitting president or the office of the presidency because it is synonymous with the country itself.

400 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:29:31pm

re: #395 palomino

Just hard for me to contextualize Obama as more or less corrupt than previous presidents, since Nixon anyway.

Bush was supposed to be the end of America. Now Obama is supposed to be that.

no president is ever the end of anything...it all runs together after so many decades...and again, I don't think BO is corrupt in the traditional sense...the Chicago way is to reward your friends and destroy your rivals....look at how many friends from the old days work for him...the list is substantial, but that's his privilege, whether they are good for the position or not....look what happened with Bill Richardson for example or J Nap, who I think is a total dunce...politics as usual and I don't get too shook up about it...and BO is more like Bush than his left wing supporters are comfortable with...LOL

401 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:30:24pm

re: #399 ggt

OK, most past presidents. The fact is we will not damage the reputation of a sitting president or the office of the presidency because it is synonymous with the country itself.

How about Nixon and Clinton? They were the targets of a fair amount that was damaging. Cost one his job, and almost the other.

402 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:31:09pm

re: #397 ggt

Get real, he may not be overtly corrupt, but you don't get to the top of anything without paying the piper. You don't get to be POTUS from Chicago without paying substantially.

The Resko home buying deal, Michelle's cush job etc. etc. We hashed it all out in 2008 here. Was any of it earth-shattering? No. Rumors are still flying about Blagohairs trial and what info he is withholding. Nothing will come out that will jeopardize the Presidency. WE can bitch and moan about past corrupt presidents, the the fact is we not damage the reputation of the president. Obama is gold-plated now, as are past presidents.

History is written by the victors.

agreed that almost all pols are corrupt in some sense and usually they get a pass

403 engineer cat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:31:54pm

my take is that obama got where he is because older pols looked on him as a golden boy and pushed him to the front of the line

i'm just amazed, frankly, really amazed, that somebody with a resume that shallow is able to handle it as well as he does

404 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:32:06pm

re: #402 albusteve

agreed that almost all pols are corrupt in some sense and usually they get a pass

There is a fine line between corruption and political "horse-trading".

HA!

405 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:32:57pm

re: #403 engineer dog

my take is that obama got where he is because older pols looked on him as a golden boy and pushed him to the front of the line

i'm just amazed, frankly, really amazed, that somebody with a resume that shallow is able to handle it as well as he does

I'm more concerned about what the old boys are doing behind the glow of the golden boy that about what he himself is doing.

406 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:33:34pm

re: #400 albusteve

no president is ever the end of anything...it all runs together after so many decades...and again, I don't think BO is corrupt in the traditional sense...the Chicago way is to reward your friends and destroy your rivals...look at how many friends from the old days work for him...the list is substantial, but that's his privilege, whether they are good for the position or not...look what happened with Bill Richardson for example or J Nap, who I think is a total dunce...politics as usual and I don't get too shook up about it...and BO is more like Bush than his left wing supporters are comfortable with...LOL

Obama is actually like Clinton, at least in the sense of being a big letdown to the liberal base.

407 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:34:11pm

re: #403 engineer dog

my take is that obama got where he is because older pols looked on him as a golden boy and pushed him to the front of the line

i'm just amazed, frankly, really amazed, that somebody with a resume that shallow is able to handle it as well as he does

I really wonder. I'm not kidding about worrying about his health. I hope he isn't still smoking like a chimney.

408 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:34:38pm

re: #401 palomino

How about Nixon and Clinton? They were the targets of a fair amount that was damaging. Cost one his job, and almost the other.

Nixon went off the reservation...dude was operating outside of the law...makes Clinton seem like a rookie...and yet he did force NVN to the table in Paris and his China thing was truly historic....really a double edged presidency

409 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:34:49pm

re: #403 engineer dog

my take is that obama got where he is because older pols looked on him as a golden boy and pushed him to the front of the line

i'm just amazed, frankly, really amazed, that somebody with a resume that shallow is able to handle it as well as he does

Sometimes the long campaign can actually mean something. It's essentially an extended tryout for the job. And he passed the tryout, regardless of how well he's doing the job.

410 engineer cat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:35:30pm

re: #405 ggt

I'm more concerned about what the old boys are doing behind the glow of the golden boy that about what he himself is doing.

yeah, you've got a point there

411 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:36:07pm

re: #406 palomino

Obama is actually like Clinton, at least in the sense of being a big letdown to the liberal base.

I liked ol Bill....he was a hoot and a hell of a politician

412 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:37:01pm

re: #408 albusteve

Nixon went off the reservation...dude was operating outside of the law...makes Clinton seem like a rookie...and yet he did force NVN to the table in Paris and his China thing was truly historic...really a double edged presidency

Sure, but both were sitting presidents who got ruined while in office (or nearly so for Clinton). I don't think Obama is off limits. He's not immune from being taken down by a scandal.

413 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:37:49pm

re: #408 albusteve

Nixon went off the reservation...dude was operating outside of the law...makes Clinton seem like a rookie...and yet he did force NVN to the table in Paris and his China thing was truly historic...really a double edged presidency

I'm kinda amazed at how similar Nixon and LBJ were in personality. Outcasts when young, as a sense. Insecure, inflated sense of ego, paranoid at the end. They were rivals in the Senate. Both would have done anything, I mean anything, to maintain their inner sense of control. The only real difference is that LBJ didn't get caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

I think Nixon probably had more of a strong family base than LBJ.

414 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:38:21pm

re: #411 albusteve

I liked ol Bill...he was a hoot and a hell of a politician

yes, which is why Obama uses him from time to time.

415 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:39:37pm

re: #414 palomino

yes, which is why Obama uses him from time to time.

Clinton is a very likable person.

416 engineer cat  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:39:51pm

re: #413 ggt

how similar Nixon and LBJ were

definitely

both were extremely dynamic people who accomplished a lot of really good things and at the same time were often rancid assholes

417 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:40:57pm

re: #416 engineer dog

definitely

both were extremely dynamic people who accomplished a lot of really good things and at the same time were often rancid assholes

and both were POTUS at the end of an era, in which being an rancid asshole wasn't really working anymore.

418 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:41:13pm

re: #415 ggt

Clinton is a very likable person.

Only a few pols can stand next to Obama and still get the most oxygen.

419 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:42:16pm

re: #412 palomino

Sure, but both were sitting presidents who got ruined while in office (or nearly so for Clinton). I don't think Obama is off limits. He's not immune from being taken down by a scandal.

well there are a few lessons to be learned between Nixon and Clinton...BO needs to get outside of himself a bit more, continue to treat everybody with respect, ignore Beck and his detractors, get more involved with the legislative process, be extra careful with his words, stay out of the limelight more, choose his battles wisely, creep along forward with the economy and let the GOP go off the rails....he will probably be re-elected...(and I still won't like him)

420 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:45:04pm

re: #413 ggt

I'm kinda amazed at how similar Nixon and LBJ were in personality. Outcasts when young, as a sense. Insecure, inflated sense of ego, paranoid at the end. They were rivals in the Senate. Both would have done anything, I mean anything, to maintain their inner sense of control. The only real difference is that LBJ didn't get caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

I think Nixon probably had more of a strong family base than LBJ.

I think LBJ might have scared the hell out of Nixon....he was a beast in his senate years, an authentic, fuck you, smash mouth Texas tough guy....Nixon liked sycophants to do his dirty work...and in the end LBJ was used and it actually killed him

421 albusteve  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:46:45pm

I'm outski

422 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:47:16pm

re: #419 albusteve

well there are a few lessons to be learned between Nixon and Clinton...BO needs to get outside of himself a bit more, continue to treat everybody with respect, ignore Beck and his detractors, get more involved with the legislative process, be extra careful with his words, stay out of the limelight more, choose his battles wisely, creep along forward with the economy and let the GOP go off the rails...he will probably be re-elected...(and I still won't like him)

I said from the outset that he will get 8 years and I still think he will. Talk radio will continue to profit from it.

As long as he doesn't try to dismantle the military or the intelligence services, I'll probably be fine with his presidency.

Congress, OTOH . . . .

Which President built which building so he wouldn't have to step out of the White House every day and see the Capitol building???

423 palomino  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:47:49pm

re: #420 albusteve

I think LBJ might have scared the hell out of Nixon...he was a beast in his senate years, an authentic, fuck you, smash mouth Texas tough guy...Nixon liked sycophants to do his dirty work...and in the end LBJ was used and it actually killed him

LBJ would threaten senators with having a military base in their state shut down. And it usually worked because people knew LBJ would back up the threats. Maybe Obama operates like this, but I can't see it.

424 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 11:51:55pm

re: #420 albusteve

I think LBJ might have scared the hell out of Nixon...he was a beast in his senate years, an authentic, fuck you, smash mouth Texas tough guy...Nixon liked sycophants to do his dirty work...and in the end LBJ was used and it actually killed him

LBJ needed serious anti-depressant medication. He worked and worried himself into exhaustion more than once. I think Nixon would have been OK with some serious talk therapy.

I think there was a difference, I don't think Nixon was a womanizer and I think he actually had a plan for his presidency. LBJ seemed to do whatever would get him elected, regardless of what he thought was right or wrong.

LBJ was a flat bastard. Somehow it worked for him, until the end.

I often wonder how history would have been if Mental Health issues were able to be worked thru with the science that is available now.

425 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 12:04:56am

Time for bed.

Have a great morning/day all!

426 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 12:44:06am
427 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 1:07:31am

I've not really written much about the Arizona slayings, the memorial service, and all the reactions to both. To me the murders, how we've dealt (or not) with them, the service at the university, and how our public faces have discussed/fought over all of it reveal real issues with us and our society.

If I do write up a Pages entry with my thoughts, I'm liable to title it something like "Dark thoughts on a numb nation."

428 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 1:22:55am
429 EdDantes  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 1:23:29am

re: #427 freetoken

I hope you do. I'd like to read it.

430 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 1:25:53am

re: #429 EdDantes

I hope you do. I'd like to read it.

Well, thank you in advance. Yet I fear that some will be offended.

431 EdDantes  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 1:37:34am

re: #430 freetoken

Well, thank you in advance. Yet I fear that some will be offended.

Some people cannot help but be offended: That is their choice. I would like to read something from a unique perspective which I am anticipating you would have.

432 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 2:01:06am

re: #431 EdDantes


Among the thoughts that strike me is that as a society we can't deal with mourning (any more) - it just becomes one more thing for entertainment, amusement, and theatre. And to cover up the discomfort of that stirring deep in our subconscious we find fig-leaves for our naked souls.

Another thought: what is now considered the greatest speech in American polity, over what was the single largest act of mass violence to occur in our history, was only 3 paragraphs long.

Yet another thought: Over 150,000 people die every day around the world, a number of them violently and even more painfully from easily treated conditions/diseases. For example, in Haiti the latest cholera epidemic has already claimed over 3700 people (who die a painful death) - a disease that is 100% preventable. Of all the people who died today, how many had no one to mourn their passing?

Anyway, I've got a whole list of these thoughts... which haven't gelled into a cohesive enough unit to put into a proper essay in a Page.

433 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 2:14:39am

The one thing I don't want to do is try to make people feel guilty so that some sort of genuflected response (e.g. the "alter call") becomes forthcoming.

Rather, there is a need I perceive for a great deal of reflection on how we deal with death, both on the more intimate level and publicly, as a society.

I don't have a word for it... the best phrase I can come up with right now is "death perspective".

434 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 2:15:33am

Also, on how our society is not able to deal with reality very well (and of course death is a key part of reality.)

435 EdDantes  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 2:18:52am

re: #432 freetoken

That is what is lacking: A Gettysburg address. We do not mourn, we blame. We score political points while others suffer.
As an eight year old on November 22nd 1963, I remember America mourned. There was no calumny on anyone. It was not the time.
I hope I am not mischaracterizing what you meant but this is what it means to me.

436 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 2:22:27am

re: #435 EdDantes

The JFK assassination had crossed my mind.

I'm not trying to affix blame so much as trying to get my mind around what is really going on.

I'm still trying to come up with terms that cover what I mean - "collective anxiety" is one, and I think it arises from the discomfort of people, groups of people, who would rather not be in covenant with each other but find that they are, and don't know what to do about it.

437 EdDantes  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 2:35:52am

re: #436 freetoken


"I'm not trying to affix blame so much as trying to get my mind around what is really going on".

You and me both.

"I'm still trying to come up with terms that cover what I mean - "collective anxiety" is one, and I think it arises from the discomfort of people, groups of people, who would rather not be in covenant with each other but find that they are, and don't know what to do about it".

It sounds like you mean mutual suspicion of the of the other which begets more "collective anxiety".

438 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 2:36:08am

One more aspect of this yet-to-be-realized reflection - how our designed "consumerist" society has even forced us into a crafted, created, faux-mourning process.

I think we (collectively) know that deep down, and when issues as stupid as "applause-gate" arise I can only surmise that those engaged is such idiocy are doing whatever they can to get their thoughts off the real issues.

I use "stupid" intentionally - one etymology of "stupid" is this:

from Latin stupidus, from stupere ‘be amazed or stunned.’
439 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 2:39:04am

re: #437 EdDantes


It sounds like you mean mutual suspicion of the of the other which begets more "collective anxiety".

There is not only a great deal of mutual suspicion but also a tremendous separation of ideals and goals, and a slowly but definitely diverging worldview (between traditionalists/religious and secularists.)

440 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 2:46:49am

I'll leave with this - "Remembrances" by John Williams:

441 EdDantes  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 2:51:03am

re: #438 freetoken

Hence, stupefied.

442 laZardo  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 3:28:39am

Great news! (/james may accent)

4chan's /new/ board has been removed because it turned into /stormfront/.

No seriously.

443 sattv4u2  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 3:58:01am

re: #442 laZardo

Great news! (/james may accent)

4chan's /new/ board has been removed because it turned into /stormfront/.

No seriously.

Should/be/removed/blog.xkcd.com//because/it's//unreadable/blog.xkcd.co/and/annoying

444 researchok  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 4:04:39am

Morning, all

445 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 4:28:42am

Well, this is stupid:

Guy gets fired because they find a copy of "Ebony" in the bathroom and think it's porn.

Two fails:

1. Ebony isn't porn

2. They assumed it was his because he's black.

446 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 4:28:48am

Oops, link:

[Link: www.courthousenews.com...]

447 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 4:34:56am

re: #445 Obdicut

When an employer wants to get rid of you? An employer usually can find a way. Some employers use extraordinary stupidity to do so and it bites them on the ass.

I find it funny he's suing for reinstatement and a million and a half bucks.

Imagine going back to work for the people you just sued the crap out of.

448 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 4:37:24am

re: #447 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

When an employer wants to get rid of you? An employer usually can find a way. Some employers use extraordinary stupidity to do so and it bites them on the ass.

I find it funny he's suing for reinstatement and a million and a half bucks.

Imagine going back to work for the people you just sued the crap out of.

Most companies are "at will" employers, meaning that they can fire you at any time for any reason or no reason.

449 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 4:39:50am

re: #448 Alouette

Just to be nitpicky, they can fire for no reason, but they can't fire for any reason; they can't fire due to race, gender, age, or any of the other protected categories.

450 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 4:44:27am

re: #449 Obdicut

Just to be nitpicky, they can fire for no reason, but they can't fire for any reason; they can't fire due to race, gender, age, or any of the other protected categories.

So if they want to fire somebody who is too old, too black or too female, they can invoke "at will."

I got fired from a job for refusing to work on Saturday. They actually sent me a letter beginning "Because you are Jewish and observe the Sabbath." This was about 20 years ago.

I started proceedings but then I found another job which paid more.

451 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 4:47:47am

re: #450 Alouette

So if they want to fire somebody who is too old, too black or too female, they can invoke "at will."

I got fired from a job for refusing to work on Saturday. They actually sent me a letter beginning "Because you are Jewish and observe the Sabbath." This was about 20 years ago.

I started proceedings but then I found another job which paid more.

You should have continued the suit, and used the settlement to plant trees with the JNF.

452 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 4:51:06am

re: #450 Alouette

Yeah. A lot of places get away with murder because it's just not worth it to the worker to pursue it, or they don't have any resources to do so.

"At-will" employment is one of the most misnamed policies ever.

453 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 4:52:11am

re: #451 Decatur Deb

You should have continued the suit, and used the settlement to plant trees with the JNF pay for my kids' college educations

454 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 4:53:19am

re: #452 Obdicut

Yeah. A lot of places get away with murder because it's just not worth it to the worker to pursue it, or they don't have any resources to do so.

"At-will" employment is one of the most misnamed policies ever.

It works both ways. You can also quit at any time, for any reason.

So it's all peachy.

455 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 4:54:39am

re: #452 Obdicut

Yeah. A lot of places get away with murder because it's just not worth it to the worker to pursue it, or they don't have any resources to do so.

"At-will" employment is one of the most misnamed policies ever.

There ought to be some way for working people to organize their resources so they aren't standing alone and helpless in front of an abusive multi-national. If I could just think of one...

456 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 4:57:34am

re: #454 Alouette

It works both ways. You can also quit at any time, for any reason.

So it's all peachy.

More practical, but I'd want the SOB's to know their money was going to a Jewish cause. Send the kids to the Technion, maybe.

457 albusteve  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 4:58:05am

here's a gun story...

WASHINGTON -- Missed flights only inconvenience most people. A late flight landed Utah gun owner Greg Revell in jail for 10 days after he got stranded in New Jersey with an unloaded firearm he had legally checked with his luggage in Salt Lake City.

Read more: [Link: www.foxnews.com...]

458 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 5:02:37am

re: #456 Decatur Deb

GAAAK. That should reference your 451.

459 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 5:07:13am

re: #457 albusteve

here's a gun story...

WASHINGTON -- Missed flights only inconvenience most people. A late flight landed Utah gun owner Greg Revell in jail for 10 days after he got stranded in New Jersey with an unloaded firearm he had legally checked with his luggage in Salt Lake City.

Read more: [Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Feel for the guy. There's possibly more to the story--he should have hit a sensible airline official, judge or prosecutor early in the adventure. (Anyone getting off a long flight these days probably has an automatic case of impaired reason.)

460 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 5:14:25am
461 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 5:14:41am

re: #459 Decatur Deb

The poor dude was probably tired and distracted, but at the end of the day, he had an unlicensed gun in New Jersey. Doesn't matter that it was licensed in Utah. New Jersey doesn't recognize out-of-state licenses at all.

Part of the responsibility of owning a gun is thinking about stuff like this.

I'm glad they dropped the charges against him, though.

462 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 5:24:31am

re: #461 Obdicut

The poor dude was probably tired and distracted, but at the end of the day, he had an unlicensed gun in New Jersey. Doesn't matter that it was licensed in Utah. New Jersey doesn't recognize out-of-state licenses at all.

Part of the responsibility of owning a gun is thinking about stuff like this.

I'm glad they dropped the charges against him, though.

If he'd been thinking clearly, he could have had the airline arrange some kind of secure delivery of the gun, keeping it out of his possession. (I never thought that clearly after a hell-flight.) Either he just had lousy luck, or he convinced a bunch of people not to use their discretion.

463 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 5:31:13am

re: #460 Alouette

14-year-old jumps to his death from 10th floor balcony.

Anti-gay bullying?

Just from the article, I'm thinking not (sports/popular/coaches). Probably something that adults missed completely.

464 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 5:33:13am

re: #463 Decatur Deb

Gay kids can't be into sports and popular?

I don't think he was bullied, from what the story sounds like, but "Secretly gay" is, sadly, still a common reason for suicide.

465 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 5:33:31am

re: #464 Obdicut

Oh, I get you, just about the bullying bit.

Moar coffee time.

Sorry.

466 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 5:37:23am

re: #464 Obdicut

Gay kids can't be into sports and popular?

I don't think he was bullied, from what the story sounds like, but "Secretly gay" is, sadly, still a common reason for suicide.

Not that he's not gay, but not bullied in the described environment.

467 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 5:41:03am

re: #465 Obdicut

Oh, I get you, just about the bullying bit.

Moar coffee time.

Sorry.

Yeah--girlfriend problems, boyfriend problems, parent problems, OD on Russian literature. Fourteen can be rough.

468 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 5:42:40am

re: #464 Obdicut

Gay kids can't be into sports and popular?

I don't think he was bullied, from what the story sounds like, but "Secretly gay" is, sadly, still a common reason for suicide.

My guess is bullying. He never spoke about it to anyone, the parents are clueless, and the kids who bullied him aren't going to come forward.

469 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 5:46:10am

Oh, and, kids can be bullied for reasons other than being gay.

470 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 5:49:31am

re: #467 Decatur Deb
OD on Russian Literature??
More coffee indeed!
Good Morning!!
Going to be a warm beautiful day...
...Till tonight!

471 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:12:33am

re: #468 Alouette

It might also be abuse. That's one of the main causes of suicide.

Kids, man. It's easy to forget how rough it can be.

472 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:18:49am

re: #471 Obdicut

It might also be abuse. That's one of the main causes of suicide.

Kids, man. It's easy to forget how rough it can be.

Horrible. I'm so glad that all my kids are self-supporting adults.

473 darthstar  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:49:56am

The Battle Hymn of Sarah Palin - no...I'm not making this shit up.

474 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:52:45am

re: #473 darthstar

The Battle Hymn of Sarah Palin - no...I'm not making this shit up.

[Video]

Watched it yesterday. Gah, my eyes! My ears!

475 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:02:39am

Heh. On Twitter, Stephen Fry has just discovered Conservapedia and is laughing himself sick.

476 lawhawk  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:08:52am

re: #473 darthstar

Palin's now trying to spin a defense over her use of "blood libel" and the use of crosshairs on maps targeting specific districts - and saying that it's okay to use the crosshairs because the Demcrats did it.

Oh, and on the blood libel bit:

"I think the critics again were using anything that they could gather out of that statement," she said. "You can spin up anything out of anybody's statements that are released and use them against the person who is making the statement."

Palin, a potential Republican presidential candidate in 2012, said the criticism won't stop her from speaking out and accusing Democrats of taking the country in the wrong direction.

"They can't make us sit down and shut up," she said.

Um, showing your ignorance over the use of a loaded term like "blood libel" when it specifically refers to the bogus claims hurled against the Jewish community murdering non Jews for religious observances (when Rep. Giffords was herself Jewish) indicates a lack of sympathy, empathy, and understanding of language.

And yes, you can spin statements any which way, but when so many people came to the same conclusion - that the use of blood libel was spectacularly wrong and insensitive - you would at least have the decency to retract those comments or clarify that you weren't meaning to offend the Jewish community.

As I originally said when the kerfuffle first broke - had she simply left it at libel instead of blood libel, her speech would have been on more solid ground. Throwing that term into the mix was a spectacularly bad mistake.

Then, there's the statement that "They can't make us sit down and shut up". No one is making you sit down or shut up. Palin is absolutely free to remove all doubt that she's unworthy of being on the political stage all by herself every time she makes an inappropriate statement.

477 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:18:43am

re: #476 lawhawk

What's weirdest about people like Palin is that they're utter subjectivists:

"You can spin up anything out of anybody's statements that are released and use them against the person who is making the statement."

She's basically asserting the phrase has no meaning except whatever she subjectively wanted it to, and anyone criticizing it is 'making up' a meaning-- even though that meaning is well-established.

Really bizarre.

478 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:21:53am

re: #476 lawhawk

Palin's now trying to spin a defense over her use of "blood libel" and the use of crosshairs on maps targeting specific districts - and saying that it's okay to use the crosshairs because the Demcrats did it.

Oh, and on the blood libel bit:

Um, showing your ignorance over the use of a loaded term like "blood libel" when it specifically refers to the bogus claims hurled against the Jewish community murdering non Jews for religious observances (when Rep. Giffords was herself Jewish) indicates a lack of sympathy, empathy, and understanding of language.

And yes, you can spin statements any which way, but when so many people came to the same conclusion - that the use of blood libel was spectacularly wrong and insensitive - you would at least have the decency to retract those comments or clarify that you weren't meaning to offend the Jewish community.

As I originally said when the kerfuffle first broke - had she simply left it at libel instead of blood libel, her speech would have been on more solid ground. Throwing that term into the mix was a spectacularly bad mistake.

Then, there's the statement that "They can't make us sit down and shut up". No one is making you sit down or shut up. Palin is absolutely free to remove all doubt that she's unworthy of being on the political stage all by herself every time she makes an inappropriate statement.

I think that people are making way too much of an issue over the use of the term "blood libel." It doesn't generate the same gut reaction as "Holocaust." I don't think Sarah Palin even knew what a "blood libel" really means.

479 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:23:17am

re: #478 Alouette

I think that people are making way too much of an issue over the use of the term "blood libel." It doesn't generate the same gut reaction as "Holocaust." I don't think Sarah Palin even knew what a "blood libel" really means.

It doesn't generate that gut reaction because too few people know what it means. It is a specific reference, and to try to spin it away as "it's just a phrase, it can have a subjective meaning" is just weasel words.

480 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:26:14am

re: #478 Alouette

It does generate the same gut reaction for me, mainly because Giffords herself criticized Palin in the way that Palin is now calling a 'blood libel'.

I'm sure she didn't know what it was. That's why she shouldn't have used it. And once having used it, she should have apologized heartily. Digging in at this point is more offensive than using the term in the first place in ignorance.

Hell, there are saints who are only 'saints' because idiots thought that they were ritually murdered by Jews: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

And a cult worshiping that particular 'saint' is now rekindled.

As much as I'd love it if 'blood libel' was simply a past, forgotten bit of our history, it's alive and well and may soon again result in the deaths of Jews.

481 Big Steve  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:29:52am

re: #473 darthstar

Ahh.....Charles posted this and we had a whole gigantic thread on this yesterday

482 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:32:26am

Gah.

Among the publications that have propagated the ritual murder charges were Soviet Byelorussia and the Orthodox Church's Tsarkounae Slova (Word of Church), which in 1992 advised its readers to "be aware of cruel cults, where human sacrifices are being practiced" and it identified Jewish Hasidism as such a cult.

What the hell. The church itself is promoting the blood libel. That's some sick shit.

483 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:37:28am

re: #482 Obdicut

where human sacrifices are being practiced" and it identified Jewish Hasidism as such a cult.

As a "Jewish Hasid" this is news to me.

484 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:39:07am

Morning Honcos.

485 lawhawk  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:41:55am

re: #478 Alouette

I think you're being more charitable than I would be. I suspect that her handlers saw others - Glenn Reynolds in the WSJ - and decided to use the term in her speech, even though it wasn't the proper context and that she may not have known what the term meant (and that's again giving her the benefit of doubt).

These terms have specific meanings and values - and when people start using them completely out of context - such as with the Holocaust - then the value of those words and terms is lost.

486 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:44:24am

re: #483 Alouette

As a "Jewish Hasid" this is news to me.

I guess they've never bothered to read about Abraham and Isaac.

487 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:47:33am

re: #486 Obdicut

I guess they've never bothered to read about Abraham and Isaac.

Early Christians were also accused of blood libel, for reasons that are more apparent in Christian ritual than Jewish ritual.

488 darthstar  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:53:37am

re: #481 Big Steve

Ahh...Charles posted this and we had a whole gigantic thread on this yesterday

Didn't see it...I've been busy moving into my new house...Here's a picture of my new living room I took yesterday morning.
Image: 169066_10150091756643024_669978023_6100193_2641720_n.jpg

I can actually see it now, after unpacking 18 boxes (kitchen only)...12 more to go and the kitchen will be unpacked. Bedrooms next, then dining room and living room.

489 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:54:33am

re: #488 darthstar

Didn't see it...I've been busy moving into my new house...Here's a picture of my new living room I took yesterday morning.
Image: 169066_10150091756643024_669978023_6100193_2641720 _n.jpg

I can actually see it now, after unpacking 18 boxes (kitchen only)...12 more to go and the kitchen will be unpacked. Bedrooms next, then dining room and living room.

Ah, I love the smell of packing tape in the morning. Smells like... VICTORY.

490 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:57:13am

re: #489 thedopefishlives

Ah, I love the smell of packing tape in the morning. Smells like... VICTORY.

He's only building a Fort. Don't let him fool ya.
/

491 darthstar  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:58:23am

re: #476 lawhawk

Sarah Palin is interested in only one thing - Sarah Palin. Anything that could do damage to that brand and the money it's bringing her is to be dismissed, excused, and ignored - especially when that thing is Sarah Palin.

492 iossarian  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:59:25am

re: #477 Obdicut

What's weirdest about people like Palin is that they're utter subjectivists...

The really annoying aspect of it is that these are the same people who will insist that some things are "objectively true" (take your choice between "gays are not meant to marry", "women are subservient to men", "dark people are suitable for slavery" depending on era and context).

But when it's them making shit up, suddenly it's all "the words mean what I want them to mean".

Consistency, people, consistency!

493 darthstar  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:59:41am

re: #490 Cannadian Club Akbar

He's only building a Fort. Don't let him fool ya.
/

Truth be told, the dog preferred the living room without furniture and boxes in it. Thought it made a great indoor frisbee field.

494 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:01:50am

re: #493 darthstar

Truth be told, the dog preferred the living room without furniture and boxes in it. Thought it made a great indoor frisbee field.

Pick up the house, put it on my 5 acres. Indoor Frisbee and enough room to poop. Doggie utopia. Heh.

495 lawhawk  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:04:12am

re: #488 darthstar

Congrats on the move and good luck with the house!

496 darthstar  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:13:09am

re: #495 lawhawk

Congrats on the move and good luck with the house!

Thanks...took the dogs for a nice walk this morning. Sun's shining, no wind, can see the curlers at Maverick's (currently an 8-10 foot swell out there, so it's visible from our road). Walked to dinner last night - we've lived the last four years at a place so remote that we had to drive for everything...so this is a nice change for us.

497 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:15:52am

re: #476 lawhawk

I'll employ Occam's Razor here, and simply state that Sarah Palin is fucking stupid.

498 Buck  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:22:40am

re: #476 lawhawk


As I originally said when the kerfuffle first broke - had she simply left it at libel instead of blood libel, her speech would have been on more solid ground.

IMO, The haters would have still corrected her and insisted that it was slander not libel, and then gone into how ignorant she was for not knowing the difference.

499 lawhawk  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:27:30am

re: #498 Buck

Libel and slander are flip sides of the same coin. Both refer to defamation of character either by written or verbal statements.

The problem for Palin is that "blood libel" is not the same as libel. They are not equivalent and the connotations of both are not the same. This is why Palin was rightfully slammed for her use of blood libel.

500 lawhawk  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:29:14am

re: #496 darthstar

Sounds like a delightful place to live - I've wanted to visit that part of CA, but never had the time. Must be amazing to see those waves come in - especially when they're predicted to go monster. We moved a few years back from where we had to drive pretty much everywhere to a new place where we can now walk to pretty much everything - including the train to work - and it's a huge difference.

501 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:53:52am

re: #498 Buck

IMO, The haters would have still corrected her and insisted that it was slander not libel, and then gone into how ignorant she was for not knowing the difference.

Yeah except that mistaking slander for libel doesn't offend an entire religion whose victimhood she is either playing down via dilution or attempting to usurp.

So it still would have INDISPUTABLY been in Sarah's best interest not to invoke "blood lible" when it wasn't appropriate.

502 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:54:09am

re: #498 Buck

Well, I guess haters is better what you previously called those who attacked Palin over the appropriately use of the term-- assholes.

I think that Derschowitz is being a fool when he defends the use of the terms, but I don't think he's an asshole for doing so. I think he's just very sadly mistaken.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to call those who'd prefer that the term 'blood libel', which means a very specific charge, be reserved for when it's appropriate, haters and assholes.

503 Interesting Times  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:54:21am
504 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:58:33am

re: #397 ggt

Get real, he may not be overtly corrupt, but you don't get to the top of anything without paying the piper. You don't get to be POTUS from Chicago without paying substantially.

The Resko home buying deal, Michelle's cush job etc. etc. We hashed it all out in 2008 here. Was any of it earth-shattering? No. Rumors are still flying about Blagohairs trial and what info he is withholding. Nothing will come out that will jeopardize the Presidency. WE can bitch and moan about past corrupt presidents, the the fact is we not damage the reputation of the president. Obama is gold-plated now, as are past presidents.

History is written by the victors.

I guess what baffles me about this line of argument is that I can easily accept that no one gets to the White House without a certain amount of pull and dealing in their background.

But is it really possible to become the POTUS from Texas, say, with clean hands and clean heart? What you're describing, if I assume the absolute worst, still doesn't sound remotely unique to Chicago.

I'm willing to accept that it's regionally variable, but again, even if I assume the worst, there doesn't seem to be anything specially Chicago about these things.

505 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:02:19am

re: #445 Obdicut

Well, this is stupid:

Guy gets fired because they find a copy of "Ebony" in the bathroom and think it's porn.

Two fails:

1. Ebony isn't porn

2. They assumed it was his because he's black.

Didn't the fact that the people on the cover were wearing clothes alert them that something might be wrong?

506 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:02:33am

re: #504 SanFranciscoZionist

Chicago really does have a big history of corruption, and plenty still present in entrenched ways. It's absolutely true.

What isn't true, is that this corruption is so pervasive and insidious that every single politician in Chicago is corrupted by it and nothing can proceed there without the blessings of some corrupt machine.

I think the overall corruption of the democratic process with the huge amounts of money coming from special interests and lobbyists is a hell of a lot more concern than what is largely a shadow of a historical corruption.

507 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:06:26am

re: #505 SanFranciscoZionist
Wow!
My first thought was .(Damn...I wish I was his Lawyer)!!
Second thought was...What the hell is wrong with me!

508 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:06:47am

re: #482 Obdicut

Gah.

What the hell. The church itself is promoting the blood libel. That's some sick shit.

It's really, really deep in some parts of the Eastern Orthodox tradition, and what with resurgent nationalism, and white supremacists, and crazy economies, and Uncle Tom Cobley and all...it was bound to resurface.

And they ain't got Vatican Two in the Orthodox world.

509 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:07:05am

re: #483 Alouette

As a "Jewish Hasid" this is news to me.

As opposed to being a Buddhist Hasid?

510 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:08:07am

Baby Doc is in custody in Haiti.

511 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:08:47am

re: #510 Fozzie Bear

One less mass murderer free in the world. Huzzah!

512 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:10:07am

re: #510 Fozzie Bear

Baby Doc is in custody in Haiti.

Hope the prison system is in alot worse shap than the rest of the counrty...

513 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:10:45am

re: #512 reloadingisnotahobby

Hope the prison system is in alot worse shap than the rest of the counrty...

I'm pretty sure Haitian prisons are not terribly luxurious.

514 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:11:05am

re: #512 reloadingisnotahobby

Hope the prison system is in alot worse shap than the rest of the counrty...

It probably is, but it's probably also corrupt as hell.

Why did he go back? Does anyone understand Haiti or the Duvaliers well enough to explain this to me?

515 Lidane  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:12:39am

So I'm sitting here on my last day of vacation and the inaugural for Rick Perry is on TV. I just found out that Texas has a state pledge of allegiance,since someone just said it.

WTF? I have never, ever said it, or even knew that it existed. That blows my mind. Do other states have their own individual pledges, or is that just a Texas quirk?

516 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:14:14am

re: #514 SanFranciscoZionist

It probably is, but it's probably also corrupt as hell.

Why did he go back? Does anyone understand Haiti or the Duvaliers well enough to explain this to me?

I think the Duvaliers are just crazy enough to think they have been forgiven for killing thousands of people. This guy's dad drove around in a Cadillac with a gold plated AK-47. That's not normal behavior.

517 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:14:44am

re: #515 Lidane

LOL
That whole Secession thing been around loner than you thought eh?

518 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:15:59am

re: #515 Lidane

So I'm sitting here on my last day of vacation and the inaugural for Rick Perry is on TV. I just found out that Texas has a state pledge of allegiance,since someone just said it.

WTF? I have never, ever said it, or even knew that it existed. That blows my mind. Do other states have their own individual pledges, or is that just a Texas quirk?

If there is a California pledge, I have never heard of it. And a quick search doesn't turn one up.

519 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:16:31am

re: #514 SanFranciscoZionist

It probably is, but it's probably also corrupt as hell.

Why did he go back? Does anyone understand Haiti or the Duvaliers well enough to explain this to me?

My guess is that he expects to take over again and is probably not surprised to be arrested. He has lots of money and lots of well placed friends. He could still easily make the transition from prison to the presidential palace.

520 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:16:40am

re: #516 Fozzie Bear

South Side of Chicago??
Baby Doc needed to "Liberate" some "Assets" he
had "Stashed" somewhere??

521 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:17:36am

re: #519 Killgore Trout

It has happened before....

522 lawhawk  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:18:27am

re: #510 Fozzie Bear

The Haitian government has threatened him with arrest ever since he went into exile. At this point, they're just questioning him to see whether they will bring charges against him for looting the Haitian treasury for years.

Haitian authorities will question former dictator Jean-Claude "Baby Doc" Duvalier to determine whether he should be prosecuted for stealing from the treasury during his rule, a senior government official said Tuesday.

"He will be questioned and he will remain at the disposal of the judicial system," the official, who asked not to be named, told Reuters.

The statement came as senior police officials and a judge were holding a private meeting with Duvalier.

The officials would not tell journalists the purpose of the meeting at the high-end hotel where the former leader has been staying since his surprise return to the country. Haiti's chief prosecutor was also at the meeting in the Hotel Karibe.

Now it will be interesting to see what Duvalier's supporters will do - since they were in a position to benefit from Duvalier's appearance and resurgence.

Duvalier was nothing but bad jobu for the Haitian people, and he's the last thing the country needed.

523 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:18:30am

re: #519 Killgore Trout

If he ends up in control of Haiti again, the people there are just fucked. He's a fucking thief and a lunatic.

524 Lidane  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:19:28am

re: #514 SanFranciscoZionist

It probably is, but it's probably also corrupt as hell.

Why did he go back? Does anyone understand Haiti or the Duvaliers well enough to explain this to me?

It's the same kind of misplaced nostalgia that has people in Russia and across Eastern Europe missing Communist rule. It's the devil you know rather than the uncertain future you're now facing.

Haiti is a very young country with most of its population born after Baby Doc was overthrown, but the older generations are presumably putting rose colored glasses on saying that things were better back then when that's not the case at all.

525 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:20:28am

re: #523 Fozzie Bear

If he ends up in control of Haiti again, the people there are just fucked. He's a fucking thief and a lunatic.

We would probably have to step in again and remove him. Unfortunately Haiti is fucked with him or without him.

526 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:20:49am

If Baby Doc ends up back in the Haitian dictatorship presidency, NGO's will start pulling out before the ink is dry on the oath of office.

527 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:24:09am

Fiscal Responsibility!
Haley Approves Huge Salary Increases

With her state facing an estimated $1 billion budget shortfall, S.C. Gov. Nikki Haley handed out huge salary increases to top gubernatorial staffers on her first full day in office. She also doled out big salaries to newly-created positions within the governor’s office.

Paying attention, Tea Partiers?

Haley started things off by giving her new chief of staff, Tim Pearson, a 27.5 percent pay raise. Pearson will make $125,000 a year – or $27,000 more than Scott English made while serving as chief of staff to former Gov. Mark Sanford.

Pearson will also have a full-time assistant who makes $60,000 a year.

Haley’s deputy chief of staff for communications and legislative affairs – Trey Walker – will be paid $122,775 a year. That’s a 42.3 percent increase over the second-highest paid staffer in the Sanford administration.

Haley’s top lawyer, Swati Patel, will be paid $102,000 a year – which is a 36 percent increase over the $75,000 a year that Sanford paid his top lawyer.

528 leftynyc  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:24:50am

re: #249 Opal

"What's up with David Frum's left eye?"

Frum explained it:

[Link: www.frumforum.com...]


I had that once. Mine was a result of shingles in my ear (Ramsey Hunt Syndrome). Hopefully he's on an anti-viral and a steroid. I also found a lot of help from accupuncture. That's what the problem in his blinking was about. I couldn't close my eye for almost 3 weeks.

529 wrenchwench  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:26:11am

re: #515 Lidane

So I'm sitting here on my last day of vacation and the inaugural for Rick Perry is on TV. I just found out that Texas has a state pledge of allegiance,since someone just said it.

WTF? I have never, ever said it, or even knew that it existed. That blows my mind. Do other states have their own individual pledges, or is that just a Texas quirk?

We have four or five state songs, and a state question, but no state pledge.

New Mexico Blue Book, State Symbols section. [.pdf]

530 prairiefire  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:28:29am

re: #515 Lidane

So I'm sitting here on my last day of vacation and the inaugural for Rick Perry is on TV. I just found out that Texas has a state pledge of allegiance,since someone just said it.

WTF? I have never, ever said it, or even knew that it existed. That blows my mind. Do other states have their own individual pledges, or is that just a Texas quirk?

IIRC, that's a hold over from when Texas was a republic.

531 Buck  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:28:56am

I would like to explain to anyone who cares, that Obdicut is attacking me, and once again lying about what I said.

He likes to provoke me by "paraphrasing" what I say, which is to twist so much that it is not at all what I said, but what he wants the reader to think I said.

You can tell when he is doing it, he does not provide a quote or a link.

I NEVER "called those who attacked Palin over the appropriately use of the term-- assholes."

I did suggests that there were assholes who would attack her for any reason they could find, and that she should try not to give them more ammunition.

In the context of the entire thread I said:


I think it was an appropriate use, but there are so many assholes like you that would attack her for it. So I would suggest to her, if she asked not to (use it).

And yes, it is one thing to express a disagreement with someone, and another to attack someone. I called Obdicut (and the many people like him) assholes. Not everyone (as the paraphrasing would suggest). Of course compared to the name calling and profanity directed at me, it seems like he is complaining only to try and smear me.

I am not responding to Obdicut because he is a bully, and a liar.

He thinks it is ok to actually quote me saying things I didn't. He will even enclose the "paraphrased" sentence in quotes to give the reader the impression that he is actually quoting what was said. It wasn't. He either under a misunderstanding, or he is just making stuff up.

I have tried to explain myself, and clear up the misunderstanding, but he simply ignores that, and just keeps posting the lies, the misquotes, and the paraphrasing (made up stuff).

Clearly, every time I post, he will repeat this slander. I can't stop that. BUT I want to be clear that he is NOT telling the truth, he is name calling, and bullying. I have reported this to Charles. I am hoping that others will recognize this for what it is, and realize how wrong this behaviour is.

You might disagree with me, which is fair, but if you encourage this bully, then you will have to responsibility when he attacks others in the same way.

532 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:29:40am

re: #518 SanFranciscoZionist

If there is a California pledge, I have never heard of it. And a quick search doesn't turn one up.

Then again, given that the Bear Flag Republic lasted less than a month, they may not have had time to write one.

533 Lidane  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:30:33am

re: #530 prairiefire

IIRC, that's a hold over from when Texas was a republic.

I must have missed it in my Texas history class. I've lived here my whole life and can't remember ever saying it. If we ever had to say a Pledge in school, it was the one to the United States.

What a strange thing. It caught me completely off guard to hear it this morning.

534 Lidane  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:31:18am

re: #531 Buck

I would like to explain to anyone who cares

TL;DR

535 wrenchwench  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:33:31am

re: #528 leftynyc

I had that once. Mine was a result of shingles in my ear (Ramsey Hunt Syndrome). Hopefully he's on an anti-viral and a steroid. I also found a lot of help from accupuncture. That's what the problem in his blinking was about. I couldn't close my eye for almost 3 weeks.

I had that too, although it was a mild case. I treated it with ibuprofen and ice (above the ear on the affected side). I thought it was from falling asleep with that ear on a two-by-four (the arm of a futon couch) but the doctor said, "Oh, no. It's idiopathic."

536 Ericus58  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:33:32am

And that's when the fight started.......

537 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:34:26am

re: #531 Buck

I NEVER "called those who attacked Palin over the appropriately use of the term-- assholes."

You said, when I said:

It is not weaselly. I think it was an appropriate use [of the term blood libel], but there are so many assholes like you that would attack her for it. So I would suggest to her, if she asked not to.

I don't see any room in there for people to be attacking her for it and not be assholes.

Victimhood is apparently a communicable thing.

538 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:35:01am

re: #537 Obdicut

Pimf: Ignore the "When I said".

The entire quote is Buck's.

I'm going out to lunch. This is really stupid.

539 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:35:13am

re: #536 Ericus58

And that's when the fight started...

We were having a perfectly good brawl but then a hockey game broke out....

540 wrenchwench  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:36:13am

re: #531 Buck

I am not responding to Obdicut because he is a bully, and a liar.

Looks like you are responding.

It's going to take a lot more than your post to convince me that Obdicut is in any way a bully or a liar.

541 prairiefire  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:38:16am

re: #533 Lidane

Was it a pledge of allegiance to the state flag? That law has ben amended through the years.[Link: www.crwflags.com...]

542 Stanghazi  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:39:13am

Damn. Good morning!

543 wrenchwench  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:40:40am

re: #542 Stanley Sea

Damn. Good morning!

Damn good morning to you, too.

544 Lidane  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:43:07am

re: #541 prairiefire

Was it a pledge of allegiance to the state flag? That law has ben amended through the years.[Link: www.crwflags.com...]

Yeah. I asked about this on Facebook and my best friend linked me to this article. Apparently, the pledge has existed since 1933, but it wasn't mandated for students until 2003. Looks to me like it was a post-9/11 law:

[Link: www.chron.com...]

545 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:44:30am

Fark linked to the Obama hair outrage yesterday. Thanks to the fark lizards who put up a fight for lgf over there.

546 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:47:12am

Morning all!

Did you hear, the vultures were cleared of all wrong doing in KSA!

I was sooo worried.

Can't stay long.

Hope you-all have a great day!

547 Interesting Times  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:47:44am
548 prairiefire  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:50:59am

re: #542 Stanley Sea

Damn. Good morning!

Good morning!
Hey, Stanley, did you have a question for me from about a month ago?

549 leftynyc  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:55:07am

re: #478 Alouette

Oh, I disagree. Frankly, I'm hoping she had no idea what it meant. The other ooption is that she's comparing Jews getting murdered over a lie to her having to whine that peopole are being mean to her. Her martyr routine wears very thin. Then she complains abou the sheriff who never mentioned her name at all.

550 Stanghazi  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:55:09am

re: #548 prairiefire

Good morning!
Hey, Stanley, did you have a question for me from about a month ago?

Hmm? I don't recall?

551 prairiefire  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:58:17am

re: #550 Stanley Sea

Hmm? I don't recall?

I thought I read it on a thread I had read after I logged off. No biggie.
I do want to make sure you are getting good advice for your current situation. Any questions for an old divorcee?

552 Stanghazi  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:05:30am

re: #551 prairiefire

Thank you sweetie! I'm cool at the moment. Well other than what do you do with an expensive diamond ring? :)

553 leftynyc  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:05:31am

re: #535 wrenchwench

I had that too, although it was a mild case. I treated it with ibuprofen and ice (above the ear on the affected side). I thought it was from falling asleep with that ear on a two-by-four (the arm of a futon couch) but the doctor said, "Oh, no. It's idiopathic."

Mine was considered a "moderate" case. I'm lucky in that my shingles were not painful - just incredibly itchy. I have no idea if it was the drugs or the accupuncture that helped most - I'm perfectly willing to give both east and wetern medicine credit. BTW - I loved accupuncture and would still go once a week if I could afford it.

554 prairiefire  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:07:09am

re: #552 Stanley Sea

Thank you sweetie! I'm cool at the moment. Well other than what do you do with an expensive diamond ring? :)

Keep it for when you need a disco ball. : )

555 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 4:08:57am

re: #531 Buck

wow you are crazy


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