Pipe Bomb Found on MLK Parade Route in Spokane

US News • Views: 28,320

ABC News has the latest details on a potentially lethal pipe bomb discovered in a backpack along the route of the Martin Luther King parade in Spokane, Washington.

A suspicious backpack left along a Martin Luther King Day parade route in Spokane, Wash., held a radio-controlled pipe bomb that could have sprayed shrapnel at marchers in the parade.

Three parade workers spotted a backpack with visible wires on a bench at North Washington Street and West Main Avenue in downtown Spokane about 30 minutes before the parade was scheduled to begin Monday. Authorities rerouted the parade while officers from the Spokane Police Department’s bomb disposal unit worked on the bomb.

FBI special agent Frank Harrill, the supervisory senior resident agent in Spokane, told ABC News that the backpack was “a viable device.”

“The potential for lethality was clear,” Harrill said. The local bomb squad neutralized the device, he added.

According to an FBI press release, “Subsequent preliminary analysis revealed the backpack contained a potentially deadly destructive device, likely capable of inflicting multiple casualties.”

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564 comments
1 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:05:14pm

So who wants to take bets on how long it will be before someone accuses this of being a false flag?

2 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:06:07pm

It was placed on a concrete bench that would have directed the force of the blast toward the parade marchers.

3 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:06:38pm

re: #1 jamesfirecat

Liberals did it.

4 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:07:47pm

re: #3 wozzablog

Liberals did it.

Trying to make a martyr of Glenn Beck.

Oh, it was MLK's parade.

Then, yeah, Sarah Palin did it.

5 Amory Blaine  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:08:10pm

They are scrubbing posts as fast as they go up at that ABC link.

6 Kruk  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:08:42pm

Oh, holy crap. Is it bad that I'm *hoping* it's Jihadis? Better the the Devil you know and all that.

7 Amory Blaine  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:08:46pm

re: #5 Amory Blaine

They are scrubbing posts as fast as they go up at that ABC link.

lol nm.

8 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:10:09pm

Well kudos to sharp eyed people and the FBI. We have averted a real tragedy. It's a media fail moment as well. No excuse for the scant coverage. Compare it to the NYC bomb attempt. I just don't get it.

9 webevintage  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:10:13pm

re: #3 wozzablog

Liberals did it.

anything to make The Palin look bad....
/

10 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:10:22pm

re: #6 Kruk

The SPLC may know these devils.

11 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:11:53pm

re: #6 Kruk

Oh, holy crap. Is it bad that I'm *hoping* it's Jihadis? Better the the Devil you know and all that.

In Spokane? Not a chance. They're local white racist assholes.

(Yes, I'm profiling.)

12 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:12:42pm

re: #10 wozzablog

The SPLC may know these devils.

///And of course those of us in the know, know that the SPLC is nothing but a hate group full of devils!

13 BishopX  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:12:54pm

Wasn't the DC sniper from Spokane?

14 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:14:39pm

re: #13 BishopX

Wasn't the DC sniper from Spokane?

He's dead, Jim.

15 albusteve  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:14:59pm

right, pipe bombs look just like food wrappers if you build them right...wtf are these cretins thinking?...fuck up a small number of innocent people to emphasize their twisted ideology?...if and when the perps that did this are caught, they should do life...get the pot smokers out of the prisons and make way for long term freaks like this

16 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:16:26pm

re: #15 albusteve

right, pipe bombs look just like food wrappers if you build them right...wtf are these cretins thinking?...fuck up a small number of innocent people to emphasize their twisted ideology?...if and when the perps that did this are caught, they should do life...get the pot smokers out of the prisons and make way for long term freaks like this

That's a ten forty, I mean four twenty good buddy!

17 Kruk  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:16:48pm

re: #11 SanFranciscoZionist

In Spokane? Not a chance. They're local white racist assholes.

(Yes, I'm profiling.)

I'm going more on hope than expectation. I'd much rather this was the dying spasm of a terror threat we seem to on top (within the US, at least) than a new front.

18 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:18:18pm

re: #13 BishopX

Wasn't the DC sniper from Spokane?

I just looked that up, and no.

19 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:20:03pm

re: #18 SanFranciscoZionist

I just looked that up, and no.

But Bing Crosby was, and he's dead, too.

20 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:22:04pm

re: #17 Kruk

I'm going more on hope than expectation. I'd much rather this was the dying spasm of a terror threat we seem to on top (within the US, at least) than a new front.

It's not really a new front--there's a persistent white supremacist presence in the Northwest, in among the hippies and the survivalists and the micro-brewers.

If there is an upswing in action, though, that will be bad. There was an increase in militia activity, including some white supremacist types when Clinton was in office--a Democrat in the White House seems to trigger some of these guys.

21 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:22:38pm

re: #19 Jeff In Ohio

But Bing Crosby was, and he's dead, too.

But Bing Crosby, AFAIK, never shot anyone, nor did he bomb parade routes, so that, at least speaks well for the good people of Spokane.

22 Kruk  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:23:06pm

re: #15 albusteve

right, pipe bombs look just like food wrappers if you build them right...wtf are these cretins thinking?...fuck up a small number of innocent people to emphasize their twisted ideology?...if and when the perps that did this are caught, they should do life...get the pot smokers out of the prisons and make way for long term freaks like this

Word. I hope whoever did gets the book thrown at them.

23 albusteve  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:23:28pm

re: #17 Kruk

I'm going more on hope than expectation. I'd much rather this was the dying spasm of a terror threat we seem to on top (within the US, at least) than a new front.

firearms, explosives, indiscriminate lethal violence...that sort of stuff needs extremely harsh penalties...to hell with their state of mind, lock them away for a very long time...it might have been you that stumbled into the wrong place at the wrong time...these are crimes against us all, even an isolated armed robbery...hard time is one answer, up the ante

24 Amory Blaine  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:24:16pm

Anyone hear any updates on those Maryland incendiary devices sent to the gov. buildings?

25 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:25:23pm

re: #21 SanFranciscoZionist

But Bing Crosby, AFAIK, never shot anyone, nor did he bomb parade routes, so that, at least speaks well for the good people of Spokane.

True dat. And he sung a few with my Kentucky sweetheart, Rosemary Clooney. Sadly, she is also dead.

26 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:25:56pm

Everyone's favorite fascist sympathizer Robert Spencer is apparently going to testify in Peter King's Muslims Are Suspicious hearings next month. Lovely.

27 albusteve  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:26:11pm

re: #25 Jeff In Ohio

True dat. And he sung a few with my Kentucky sweetheart, Rosemary Clooney. Sadly, she is also dead.

seems like that ends up being the case for a lot of people

28 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:26:51pm

re: #27 albusteve

Very few of us get out of this world alive.

29 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:26:52pm

re: #24 Amory Blaine

Anyone hear any updates on those Maryland incendiary devices sent to the gov. buildings?

That got pushed out of the news by the Tuscon shooting. Last I heard the bomber was targeting DHS inspired by traffic signs encouraging people to report suspicious activity.

30 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:27:13pm

re: #26 Charles

Everyone's favorite fascist sympathizer Robert Spencer is apparently going to testify in Peter King's Muslims Are Suspicious hearings next month. Lovely.

What experience does he have on the mater? At least Stephen Colbert went out and did an honest day's work harvesting crops....

31 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:27:36pm

re: #26 Charles

Everyone's favorite fascist sympathizer Robert Spencer is apparently going to testify in Peter King's Muslims Are Suspicious hearings next month. Lovely.

I hope they bring out Crazy Pam too. That could have some entertainment value.

32 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:28:17pm

re: #27 albusteve

seems like that ends up being the case for a lot of people

Damn telomeres. Pissing on everyones party.

33 albusteve  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:28:55pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

That got pushed out of the news by the Tuscon shooting. Last I heard the bomber was targeting DHS inspired by traffic signs encouraging people to report suspicious activity.


inflammatory rhetoric!

34 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:29:30pm

re: #26 Charles

Tis the season of the witch.

35 albusteve  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:30:56pm

re: #34 Jeff In Ohio

Tis the season of the witch.

oh man....I'm inspired

36 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:31:21pm

re: #31 Killgore Trout

I hope they bring out Crazy Pam too. That could have some entertainment value.

Geller wouldn't last one minute in front of a Congressional hearing, but I do hope someone brings up Robert Spencer's long history of apologizing for, and in some cases outright support for, European far right organizations.

And his relationship with anti-Muslim hatemonger Pamela Geller should also be an issue for anyone who questions him about his qualifications to testify on Muslim extremism in the US.

37 Reginald Perrin  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:31:31pm

re: #1 jamesfirecat

So who wants to take bets on how long it will be before someone accuses this of being a false flag?

You mean they already haven't?

38 simoom  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:32:04pm

re: #26 Charles

Everyone's favorite fascist sympathizer Robert Spencer is apparently going to testify in Peter King's Muslims Are Suspicious hearings next month. Lovely.

Well there goes any chance that had of not being an enormous train-wreck...

39 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:32:39pm

re: #36 Charles

Geller wouldn't last one minute in front of a Congressional hearing, but I do hope someone brings up Robert Spencer's long history of apologizing for, and in some cases outright support for, European far right organizations.

And his relationship with anti-Muslim hatemonger Pamela Geller should also be an issue for anyone who questions him about his qualifications to testify on Muslim extremism in the US.

I don't see why Spencer has any qualifications at all. His degrees are not in the area. Could they, like, call Bernard Lewis, or someone who knows what the hell of which he speaks?

40 calochortus  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:34:03pm

re: #26 Charles

Its a stupid job, but somebody has to do it. Or something.

41 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:34:19pm

re: #35 albusteve

That's a fine record. The Kooper Session with Shuggie Otis totally rocked my world.

42 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:35:32pm

re: #39 SanFranciscoZionist

Ali G?

43 Kragar  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:36:09pm

re: #42 Jeff In Ohio

Ali G?

Gary Busey?

44 Gus  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:36:42pm

re: #26 Charles

Everyone's favorite fascist sympathizer Robert Spencer is apparently going to testify in Peter King's Muslims Are Suspicious hearings next month. Lovely.

Maybe not. I took a look around and found this at Politico (today's date):

In a move that will come as a relief to Muslim leaders, King told POLITICO that he’s not planning to call as witnesses such Muslim community critics as the Investigative Project on Terrorism’s Steve Emerson and Jihad Watch’s Robert Spencer, who have large followings among conservatives but are viewed as antagonists by many Muslims.

45 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:39:17pm

re: #44 Gus 802

Maybe not. I took a look around and found this at Politico (today's date):

Robert Spencer - still too radioactive even for the new Tea Party House.

46 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:39:45pm

re: #36 Charles

Geller wouldn't last one minute in front of a Congressional hearing, but I do hope someone brings up Robert Spencer's long history of apologizing for, and in some cases outright support for, European far right organizations.

And his relationship with anti-Muslim hatemonger Pamela Geller should also be an issue for anyone who questions him about his qualifications to testify on Muslim extremism in the US.

CAIR will almost certainly be there. I'm sure they'll bring it up.

47 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:39:50pm

re: #43 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Gary Busey?

lol

48 Gus  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:40:08pm

re: #45 Charles

Robert Spencer - still too radioactive even for the new Tea Party House.

Yeah. Now the conspiracy will be, "CAIR has bought off Pete King!!11ty."

49 albusteve  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:40:09pm

re: #41 Jeff In Ohio

That's a fine record. The Kooper Session with Shuggie Otis totally rocked my world.

it's a priceless classic IMO...I'll have to check out the Shuggie thing, not sure I ever heard of it, thanks

50 albusteve  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:41:30pm

re: #39 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't see why Spencer has any qualifications at all. His degrees are not in the area. Could they, like, call Bernard Lewis, or someone who knows what the hell of which he speaks?

what makes you think whoever invited him is any brighter than a dim bulb?...anything is possible these days

51 Kragar  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:43:13pm

Got to pimp my new avatar out.

52 albusteve  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:44:02pm

re: #51 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Got to pimp my new avatar out.

nice pants

53 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:44:47pm

re: #46 Killgore Trout

CAIR will almost certainly be there. I'm sure they'll bring it up.

Well...somebody's got to.

54 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:45:08pm

re: #49 albusteve

it's a priceless classic IMO...I'll have to check out the Shuggie thing, not sure I ever heard of it, thanks

Oh man, it is a tour de force of blues/soul/gospel rock and roll. Al is in incredible form and a 16 year old Shuggie just tears it up on guitar. Dunno if it ever made it to CD.

55 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:47:17pm

re: #49 albusteve

Here ya go

56 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:50:54pm

Guys I just had the freaky and really creepy thing happen.

I'm totally weirded out here.

57 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:51:41pm

re: #46 Killgore Trout

CAIR will almost certainly be there. I'm sure they'll bring it up.

Who CAIRs about them any more?

58 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:52:13pm

re: #56 Jadespring

What would that be?

59 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:52:51pm

re: #56 Jadespring

Guys I just had the freaky and really creepy thing happen.

I'm totally weirded out here.

You OK? What's up?

60 albusteve  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:53:55pm

re: #55 Jeff In Ohio

Here ya go


[Video]

pretty cool...I like it

61 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:55:10pm

re: #57 Alouette

Who CAIRs about them any more?

It's kind of ironic that CAIR has an easier time these days because if someone's mailing firebombs to DHS or planting bombs on parade routes it's probably not a Muslim.

62 albusteve  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:55:39pm

re: #56 Jadespring

Guys I just had the freaky and really creepy thing happen.

I'm totally weirded out here.

it happens sometimes

63 albusteve  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 6:58:51pm

re: #61 Killgore Trout

It's kind of ironic that CAIR has an easier time these days because if someone's mailing firebombs to DHS or planting bombs on parade routes it's probably not a Muslim.

good point, I hate it when they catch a break, especially one handed to them...it just keeps them around longer

64 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:01:23pm

You're going to think I'm nuts but I'm going to tell it anyway causes it's tripping me out.

I fell asleep on the couch and had a dream. In that dream this girl I used to know came into it and said hi. I was like what the heck are you doing here I haven't seen you in years (about 18 to be exact). She says 'oh well I'm traveling around a lot more now because I killed myself". In my dream I thought 'weird, I wonder if she did that in real life?" So anyways she goes on to start talking about something that I lied about, years ago, I'm assuming when we were roomies. Well we never got to the part that actually said what the lie was...my dog woke me up. "

So anyways I woke up and though wow weird dream I wonder what that was all about and although I didn't assume that it was some sort of visitation or anything it got me wondering what this person might be up to. So I managed to search her out with the help of google and facebook.

She's not dead.


But here's the creepy part. Her profession is listed as some sort of counsellor specializing in depression and you guessed it suicide.


HOW WEIRD IS THAT!

I swear I haven't had any contact or even thought much about her in years.

So yeah...I'm feeling the woo woo right about now.

65 MittDoesNotCompute  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:04:13pm

re: #46 Killgore Trout

CAIR will almost certainly be there. I'm sure they'll bring it up.

re: #64 Jadespring

You're going to think I'm nuts but I'm going to tell it anyway causes it's tripping me out.

I fell asleep on the couch and had a dream. In that dream this girl I used to know came into it and said hi. I was like what the heck are you doing here I haven't seen you in years (about 18 to be exact). She says 'oh well I'm traveling around a lot more now because I killed myself". In my dream I thought 'weird, I wonder if she did that in real life?" So anyways she goes on to start talking about something that I lied about, years ago, I'm assuming when we were roomies. Well we never got to the part that actually said what the lie was...my dog woke me up. "

So anyways I woke up and though wow weird dream I wonder what that was all about and although I didn't assume that it was some sort of visitation or anything it got me wondering what this person might be up to. So I managed to search her out with the help of google and facebook.

She's not dead.

But here's the creepy part. Her profession is listed as some sort of counsellor specializing in depression and you guessed it suicide.

HOW WEIRD IS THAT!

I swear I haven't had any contact or even thought much about her in years.

So yeah...I'm feeling the woo woo right about now.

*cues Twilight Zone theme*

66 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:04:26pm

re: #64 Jadespring

You're going to think I'm nuts but I'm going to tell it anyway causes it's tripping me out.

I fell asleep on the couch and had a dream. In that dream this girl I used to know came into it and said hi. I was like what the heck are you doing here I haven't seen you in years (about 18 to be exact). She says 'oh well I'm traveling around a lot more now because I killed myself". In my dream I thought 'weird, I wonder if she did that in real life?" So anyways she goes on to start talking about something that I lied about, years ago, I'm assuming when we were roomies. Well we never got to the part that actually said what the lie was...my dog woke me up. "

So anyways I woke up and though wow weird dream I wonder what that was all about and although I didn't assume that it was some sort of visitation or anything it got me wondering what this person might be up to. So I managed to search her out with the help of google and facebook.

She's not dead.

But here's the creepy part. Her profession is listed as some sort of counsellor specializing in depression and you guessed it suicide.

HOW WEIRD IS THAT!

I swear I haven't had any contact or even thought much about her in years.

So yeah...I'm feeling the woo woo right about now.


So its like you have someone who disembodied themselves to deal with the issue of suicidal depression by pulling people into a shadow of the afterlife....

That's either the premise for a Sy-fy channel movie or needs to have a video game made of it done by the same people who did Psychonaughts....

67 albusteve  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:05:02pm

re: #65 talon_262

re: #64 Jadespring

*cues Twilight Zone theme*

might be a rolly coaster ride in there too

68 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:08:19pm

re: #66 jamesfirecat

So its like you have someone who disembodied themselves to deal with the issue of suicidal depression by pulling people into a shadow of the afterlife...

This makes me feel so much better....

:)

69 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:08:52pm

re: #64 Jadespring

Now, you'll email her and she'll email you back "Like OMG I just had this dream about you that freaked me out!"

70 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:09:53pm

re: #64 Jadespring

You're going to think I'm nuts but I'm going to tell it anyway causes it's tripping me out.

I fell asleep on the couch and had a dream. In that dream this girl I used to know came into it and said hi. I was like what the heck are you doing here I haven't seen you in years (about 18 to be exact). She says 'oh well I'm traveling around a lot more now because I killed myself". In my dream I thought 'weird, I wonder if she did that in real life?" So anyways she goes on to start talking about something that I lied about, years ago, I'm assuming when we were roomies. Well we never got to the part that actually said what the lie was...my dog woke me up. "

So anyways I woke up and though wow weird dream I wonder what that was all about and although I didn't assume that it was some sort of visitation or anything it got me wondering what this person might be up to. So I managed to search her out with the help of google and facebook.

She's not dead.

But here's the creepy part. Her profession is listed as some sort of counsellor specializing in depression and you guessed it suicide.

HOW WEIRD IS THAT!

I swear I haven't had any contact or even thought much about her in years.

So yeah...I'm feeling the woo woo right about now.

I'm from San Francisco...I'm good with woo-woo.

First, the good part is, she's not dead.

Take a deep breath, relax, maybe take a shower or have a cup of tea.

Think about why this person might have gotten into your dreams, see if you can make any connections. Let your conscious mind process the dream a little.

Do you think you might want to make contact with her? I mean, I wouldn't
give her all the details of why...but she's on Facebook.

71 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:17:08pm

re: #70 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm from San Francisco...I'm good with woo-woo.

First, the good part is, she's not dead.

Take a deep breath, relax, maybe take a shower or have a cup of tea.

Think about why this person might have gotten into your dreams, see if you can make any connections. Let your conscious mind process the dream a little.

Do you think you might want to make contact with her? I mean, I wouldn't
give her all the details of why...but she's on Facebook.

:)

I'm working on the tea as we speak. And yeah the whole dream itself was just really weird. Very lucid. I knew I was dreaming. I'm usually pretty good at figuring out my dreams and what they're connected with and symbolism and such. This one has me stymied so far. I wish I could figure out what the lie thing was all about. I can't recall anything specific that had to do with her. I dunno maybe it has something to do with that particular time.

I think I might contact her just to say 'hey'. Though I'll wait a bit. Her talking about killing herself and the real life connection to what she apparently does is just really creepy weird.

72 Big Joe  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:20:16pm

re: #71 Jadespring
If you're good with dream symboligy, why do I always wake up dreaming about boats? It's about the only thing I ever remember when I wake up.

73 Big Joe  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:27:00pm

OH crap. Killed the thread. Sorry all.

74 Kragar  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:27:37pm

re: #72 mracb

If you're good with dream symboligy, why do I always wake up dreaming about boats? It's about the only thing I ever remember when I wake up.

Maybe you won a contest in your dream;

75 prairiefire  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:28:27pm

re: #72 mracb

If you're good with dream symboligy, why do I always wake up dreaming about boats? It's about the only thing I ever remember when I wake up.

You're looking for solutions to a problem? A way to work through something?

76 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:28:30pm

re: #73 mracb

OH crap. Killed the thread. Sorry all.

It's not dead - just pining.

77 Lidane  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:30:01pm

re: #76 wozzablog

It's not dead - just pining.

For the fjords?

78 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:31:27pm

re: #77 Lidane

For the fjords?

Definitely.

Certainly not dead.

79 MittDoesNotCompute  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:32:08pm

re: #77 Lidane

For the fjords?

It's not quite an ex-thread yet, though..

80 Kragar  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:32:27pm

re: #78 wozzablog

Definitely.

Certainly not dead.

It could nuzzle right up to the side bar and VHOOM!

81 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:32:58pm

re: #80 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

It could nuzzle right up to the side bar and VHOOM!

Its got beautiful plumage....

82 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:33:10pm

re: #72 mracb

If you're good with dream symboligy, why do I always wake up dreaming about boats? It's about the only thing I ever remember when I wake up.

Honestly I couldn't say. I've never put much stock in some sort of general bunch of symbols that applies to everyone...like you would find in dream books. A boat to you could mean something quite different then a boat would to me. Try to figure out what boats mean to you. What they make you feel like when you think about them, do you have experience with them, do you want too. And when you wake up remembering the boats how do you actually feel. Relaxed, stressed, fearful, good, bad etc.

For example when I have a dream where I'm on a boat I'm usually looking out over the water and it's bobbing up and down. These dreams usually happen when I'm trying to figure something out or trying to come to a decision about the future that I'm unsure about. The bobbing to me is the uncertainty and going back and forth between different choices and the looking out over the water is kind of like the unknown and uncertainty of what's over the horizon. Usually my boat type dreams are quite stressful and happen when I'm stressed.

83 theheat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:35:05pm

Factoid: except for me, Little Heat, and Mr. Heat, I can't think of a single white person I know that hasn't said or thinks of MLK Day in derogatory terms.

It's a joke, a non-earned holiday begged for recognition by those uppity civil rights peeps, to celebrate a black "radical" that was murdered. So what? Yeah, that's right, so what. Martin Luther King blah blah - can we shut up about him now?

I seriously can't think of anyone else I know, short of some black people, that don't poke fun of MLK day.

After all, they only gave him that day because he's black.

I hear this shit every year, and it bugs the hell out of me. I want to say, "Okay, Shitforbrains, so what nationwide movement did you orchestrate that contributed to society, other than keeping Wal-Mart and Budweiser in business?"

Fuck, some white peoples' resentment is way past skin deep.

84 jaunte  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:38:25pm

re: #83 theheat

Fuck, some white peoples' resentment is way past skin deep.


Speaking of which, I'm reading James Delingpole's 1/18 blog entry, and if he gets any more resentful he's going to cramp up:

No one is saying Sarah Palin doesn’t make the odd gaffe. But no matter how many gaffes she makes – and this won’t be the last – it isn’t going to alter the fact that President Obama is a socialist and his administration a crazy house of eco-loons, crypto-Marxists, progressives, collectivists, surrender monkeys and anarcho-lesbian harpies. Nor that Sarah Palin remains the figurehead for the counter-revolution.
[Link: blogs.telegraph.co.uk...]
85 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:40:48pm

re: #84 jaunte

Speaking of which, I'm reading James Delingpole's 1/18 blog entry, and if he gets any more resentful he's going to cramp up:

What's an anacrho-lesbian?

86 Lidane  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:41:46pm

re: #85 jamesfirecat

What's an anacrho-lesbian?

A woman who won't sleep with James Delingpole and who thinks he's a tool.

87 jaunte  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:41:53pm

re: #85 jamesfirecat

I think it's like a 'lipstick-syndicalist.'

88 Kragar  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:42:16pm

re: #85 jamesfirecat

What's an anacrho-lesbian?

She's got 8 legs?
/

89 Kragar  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:42:40pm

re: #86 Lidane

A woman who won't sleep with James Delingpole and who thinks he's a tool.

THEY'RE EVERYWHERE!

90 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:42:42pm

re: #84 jaunte

Delingpole has been quite delusional for some time.

91 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:42:56pm

re: #83 theheat

Factoid: except for me, Little Heat, and Mr. Heat, I can't think of a single white person I know that hasn't said or thinks of MLK Day in derogatory terms.

I seriously can't think of anyone else I know, short of some black people, that don't poke fun of MLK day.

I hear this shit every year, and it bugs the hell out of me. I want to say, "Okay, Shitforbrains, so what nationwide movement did you orchestrate that contributed to society, other than keeping Wal-Mart and Budweiser in business?"

Fuck, some white peoples' resentment is way past skin deep.

???

I don't honestly know a single person at all that disses MLK day

92 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:43:04pm

re: #85 jamesfirecat

What's an anacrho-lesbian?

Heh, yeah that was a pretty colorful string of epithets, wasn't it?

93 jaunte  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:43:47pm

re: #90 freetoken

I'm just checking out links to see what the right wing blog readers are into these days.

94 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:44:25pm

re: #83 theheat

Factoid: except for me, Little Heat, and Mr. Heat, I can't think of a single white person I know that hasn't said or thinks of MLK Day in derogatory terms.

I seriously can't think of anyone else I know, short of some black people, that don't poke fun of MLK day.

I hear this shit every year, and it bugs the hell out of me. I want to say, "Okay, Shitforbrains, so what nationwide movement did you orchestrate that contributed to society, other than keeping Wal-Mart and Budweiser in business?"

Fuck, some white peoples' resentment is way past skin deep.

That's awful.

95 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:44:51pm

re: #83 theheat

I seriously can't think of anyone else I know, short of some black people, that don't poke fun of MLK day.

.

I hang out with misfits, transgendered people, health care workers, artists, hippies, computer whiz types, so I dunno

maybe a generation thing? maybe a regional thing? I'm west coast, my freinds are all west coast, we're all in our 20s-50s with a couple exceptions

96 prairiefire  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:45:35pm

re: #93 jaunte

I'm just checking out links to see what the right wing blog readers are into these days.

I've been keeping an eye on RedState for the Sarah melt down. They are not quite aware of the massive Fail, yet.

97 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:45:42pm

re: #94 SanFranciscoZionist

That's awful.

I'm sorta taken aback, it didn't even occur to me that anyone besides just stormfront freaks or confederate apologists would just snark on MLK day in the company of others

98 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:46:38pm

re: #85 jamesfirecat

What's an anacrho-lesbian?

I couldn't tell you, but a quick Google search does inform us that there is a short story available online titled "The Revenge of the Anarcholesbian Epidemologist".

99 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:46:53pm

"Hair of the dog that bit me, Loyd"
Image: tumblr_leu3d2DYSR1qb7hapo1_500.gif

100 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:47:13pm

re: #87 jaunte

I think it's like a 'lipstick-syndicalist.'

Can I use that phrase?

101 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:47:23pm

re: #85 jamesfirecat

What's an anacrho-lesbian?

I don't know, but I'm pretty sure I've drank at bars with a few

102 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:48:10pm

re: #97 WindUpBird

I'm sorta taken aback, it didn't even occur to me that anyone besides just stormfront freaks or confederate apologists would just snark on MLK day in the company of others

Kwanzaa, yes. I know a lot of people who snark on Kwanzaa.

103 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:48:13pm

re: #87 jaunte

I think it's like a 'lipstick-syndicalist.'

the ones I know sure as shit don't wear lipstick, they're more of the Wendy o William types who want the whole system to tip over

104 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:48:15pm

re: #84 jaunte

i'm surprised the telegraph gives space (even online) to such blithering asshatery.

105 jaunte  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:48:18pm

re: #99 Killgore Trout

That will raise the hairs on the back of your neck.

106 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:50:12pm

re: #83 theheat

Factoid: except for me, Little Heat, and Mr. Heat, I can't think of a single white person I know that hasn't said or thinks of MLK Day in derogatory terms.

I seriously can't think of anyone else I know, short of some black people, that don't poke fun of MLK day.

I hear this shit every year, and it bugs the hell out of me. I want to say, "Okay, Shitforbrains, so what nationwide movement did you orchestrate that contributed to society, other than keeping Wal-Mart and Budweiser in business?"

Fuck, some white peoples' resentment is way past skin deep.

Not a single one?
Wow.
You can't do anything about those you're related to.
But you might want to find a new group of friends.

107 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:50:21pm

re: #102 SanFranciscoZionist


I just figure anyone who snarks on a day to remember the most important civil rights leader in our country who was shot dead

I just figure that person is a subhuman piece of shit and I really don't ever want to meet, hang out, talk to, or aid any such person in any way, any fashion and for any reason. Those are the sorts of people who would be game for the rise of an American Hitler and YES I just Godwined this whole gig :D

108 Kruk  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:50:27pm

re: #102 SanFranciscoZionist

Kwanzaa, yes. I know a lot of people who snark on Kwanzaa.

As long as no-one mocks Graknar's Ascension, we're all good.

(Bonus marks to anyone who gets that one)

109 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:50:49pm

re: #103 WindUpBird

the ones I know sure as shit don't wear lipstick, they're more of the Wendy o William types who want the whole system to tip over

I had to look her up. Yikes!

110 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:51:34pm

re: #109 CuriousLurker

I had to look her up. Yikes!

it's good stuff :D

But then again, I'm into a lot of bands that make people go yikes, with names that actually can't be repeated on LGF

111 theheat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:53:07pm

re: #95 WindUpBird

I live in a rural area, though on the WC. Meth heads, bible thumpers, fanatical home schoolers, farmers... Wait, ain't that the West Coast's version of The Heartland™?
//

Funny story... A good friend of ours is black, and does landscaping and home repair work for a living. He was out near our mailbox, by the ditch, looking for fence damage to repair. Our neighbor called to warn me there was a very large black man in my driveway.

That's how many black people live in my area, to give you an idea of why people think they must warn their neighbors about them. MLK Day ain't big around here.

112 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:53:10pm

re: #109 CuriousLurker

I had to look her up. Yikes!

and they were nice at the bar, but just the punk rawk lesbian types who scream karaoke and have Vandals jackets

113 laZardo  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:53:38pm

re: #107 WindUpBird

I just figure anyone who snarks on a day to remember the most important civil rights leader in our country who was shot dead

I just figure that person is a subhuman piece of shit and I really don't ever want to meet, hang out, talk to, or aid any such person in any way, any fashion and for any reason. Those are the sorts of people who would be game for the rise of an American Hitler and YES I just Godwined this whole gig :D

Conservatism.

Also good morning.

114 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:54:43pm

re: #85 jamesfirecat

What's an anacrho-lesbian?

He's likely talking about feminists or at least the man hating stereotype 'feminist'.
People like Emma Goldman are considered "Anarcha -feminists' basically combining aspects of anarchal philosophies with feminist thought.
I doubt this guy knows any of this but it's common for his type to use various 'lesbian' variations to refer to feminists in a derogatory manner. For him it's likely just a way of saying "Miltant, man-hating, crazy wimmins".

115 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:55:17pm

re: #111 theheat

I live in a rural area, though on the WC. Meth heads, bible thumpers, fanatical home schoolers, farmers... Wait, ain't that the West Coast's version of The Heartland™?
//

Funny story... A good friend of ours is black, and does landscaping and home repair work for a living. He was out near our mailbox, by the ditch, looking for fence damage to repair. Our neighbor called to warn me there was a very large black man in my driveway.

That's how many black people live in my area, to give you an idea of why people think they must warn their neighbors about them. MLK Day ain't big around here.


yowza. I guess I've never lived further than about 20 minutes from the center of a major metropolitan city.

116 laZardo  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:55:48pm

re: #114 Jadespring

He's likely talking about feminists or at least the man hating stereotype 'feminist'.
People like Emma Goldman are considered "Anarcha -feminists' basically combining aspects of anarchal philosophies with feminist thought.
I doubt this guy knows any of this but it's common for his type to use various 'lesbian' variations to refer to feminists in a derogatory manner. For him it's likely just a way of saying "Miltant, man-hating, crazy wimmins".

Bulld-

/yeah, i'm gonna censor myself here.

117 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:55:50pm

re: #111 theheat

I live in a rural area, though on the WC. Meth heads, bible thumpers, fanatical home schoolers, farmers... Wait, ain't that the West Coast's version of The Heartland™?
//

Funny story... A good friend of ours is black, and does landscaping and home repair work for a living. He was out near our mailbox, by the ditch, looking for fence damage to repair. Our neighbor called to warn me there was a very large black man in my driveway.

That's how many black people live in my area, to give you an idea of why people think they must warn their neighbors about them. MLK Day ain't big around here.

And I know of rural WC, believe me :D there's some bad mojo in eastern WA and Oregon o_o

118 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:56:29pm

So having run out of ideas and outlets, the Ignorant Reactionary Shithead wing of our country's political universe is falling back to blowing up black people now? That's just great.

119 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:57:05pm

re: #114 Jadespring

He's likely talking about feminists or at least the man hating stereotype 'feminist'.
People like Emma Goldman are considered "Anarcha -feminists' basically combining aspects of anarchal philosophies with feminist thought.
I doubt this guy knows any of this but it's common for his type to use various 'lesbian' variations to refer to feminists in a derogatory manner. For him it's likely just a way of saying "Miltant, man-hating, crazy wimmins".

///Clearly they're all just hysterical and in need of a good rogering....

120 theheat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:57:10pm

re: #118 Pawn of the Oppressor

So having run out of ideas and outlets, the Ignorant Reactionary Shithead wing of our country's political universe is falling back to blowing up black people now? That's just great.

You mean Democrats?
//

121 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:57:47pm

re: #112 WindUpBird

and they were nice at the bar, but just the punk rawk lesbian types who scream karaoke and have Vandals jackets

I'm sure women like that completely freak out the wingnuts. ;-)

122 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:57:51pm

re: #111 theheat


That's how many black people live in my area, to give you an idea of why people think they must warn their neighbors about them. MLK Day ain't big around here.

I guess I can see nervousness and wiggedy behavior around black people, i just can't imagine why a thinking human being would just disregard the fact of what MLK did, and why he's important, it doesn't compute

it'd be like if they denied that Copernicus existed, or they thought gravity was evil

123 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:58:11pm

re: #118 Pawn of the Oppressor

So having run out of ideas and outlets, the Ignorant Reactionary Shithead wing of our country's political universe is falling back to blowing up black people now? That's just great.

Sadly the entire "kill people with skin color darker than me" thing has sort of always been the go to move of the Ignorant Reactionary Shithead aspect of American Politics....

124 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:58:15pm

re: #119 jamesfirecat

///Clearly they're all just hysterical and in need of a good rogering...

Oooo.... you're baaad.....

Naughty boy...

125 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:58:52pm

re: #121 CuriousLurker

I'm sure women like that completely freak out the wingnuts. ;-)

Yeah it's probably not vinyl they have in their collection

126 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:59:49pm

re: #118 Pawn of the Oppressor

So having run out of ideas and outlets, the Ignorant Reactionary Shithead wing of our country's political universe is falling back to blowing up black people now? That's just great.

well, Obama did force it all on them, the whole "black people are people" thing, that must have come as a surprise to large swaths of the country

127 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 7:59:49pm

re: #121 CuriousLurker

I'm sure women like that completely freak out the wingnuts. ;-)

They freak me out! :D

128 laZardo  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:00:35pm

re: #123 jamesfirecat

Sadly the entire "kill people with skin color darker than me" thing has sort of always been the go to move of the Ignorant Reactionary Shithead aspect of American Politics...

Mainstream American conservatism. No wonder we freed the slaves 60 years after the Europeans did.

129 theheat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:01:55pm

re: #122 WindUpBird

Apparently, MLK's achievements are all overshadowed by the fact he was black, which is why he was given a holiday, to keep the darkies so they don't feel left out of all our hard-earned white folk holidays. What's next, Native American Day? You mean, those damned Injuns that scalped and murdered missionaries?!
//

It's all so disheartening. The stupidity and bitterness burns.

130 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:02:47pm

re: #128 laZardo

Mainstream American conservatism. No wonder we freed the slaves 60 years after the Europeans did.

Dude... I'm a liberal too... but put down the broad brush, you're not doing us any favors....

131 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:03:02pm

re: #123 jamesfirecat

Sadly the entire "kill people with skin color darker than me" thing has sort of always been the go to move of the Ignorant Reactionary Shithead aspect of American Politics...

ME SAD! TRIBAL LEADERS BREAK ECONOMY, NOW ME NO CAN AFFORD SUV AND CIGARETTES. ME BLAME BROWN GUY, HE DIFFERENT! ME SMASH BROWN GUY!

Who was it who said that the strongest proof of intelligent life in the universe is that it hasn't shown up here? I'm having a serious case of the "In this day and age"-es.

132 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:03:06pm

re: #114 Jadespring

I will say I am not really a big fan of Dworkin or MacKinnon, there are some really disturbing feminists trains of thought out there, at least disturbing to me

133 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:03:23pm

re: #129 theheat

Apparently, MLK's achievements are all overshadowed by the fact he was black, which is why he was given a holiday, to keep the darkies so they don't feel left out of all our hard-earned white folk holidays. What's next, Native American Day? You mean, those damned Injuns that scalped and murdered missionaries?!
//

It's all so disheartening. The stupidity and bitterness burns.

wow

134 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:03:30pm

re: #129 theheat

Apparently, MLK's achievements are all overshadowed by the fact he was black, which is why he was given a holiday, to keep the darkies so they don't feel left out of all our hard-earned white folk holidays. What's next, Native American Day? You mean, those damned Injuns that scalped and murdered missionaries?!
//

It's all so disheartening. The stupidity and bitterness burns.

We have National Aboriginal Day. Not a work holiday though.

135 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:04:42pm

re: #127 Jadespring

They freak me out! :D

They freak me out a little too, but in a good way. I've always had a fairly wide anti-establishment streak. I (mostly) play by the rules these days, but I didn't when I was younger. It's always possible to go too far, but still... heh.

136 BryanS  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:04:51pm

re: #111 theheat

I live in a rural area, though on the WC. Meth heads, bible thumpers, fanatical home schoolers, farmers... Wait, ain't that the West Coast's version of The Heartland™?
//

Funny story... A good friend of ours is black, and does landscaping and home repair work for a living. He was out near our mailbox, by the ditch, looking for fence damage to repair. Our neighbor called to warn me there was a very large black man in my driveway.

That's how many black people live in my area, to give you an idea of why people think they must warn their neighbors about them. MLK Day ain't big around here.

What kind of backwater place do you live in? Seriously?

137 prairiefire  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:06:59pm

re: #136 BryanS

What kind of backwater place do you live in? Seriously?

That could easily happen in rural Missouri.

138 theheat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:07:05pm

re: #134 Jadespring

I'm all for more holidays. I haven't been able to wage an effective War on Christmas, however. Defiantly, I still have my Halloween stuff up. (shakes fist in the air)

139 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:07:36pm

re: #138 theheat

I'm all for more holidays. I haven't been able to wage an effective War on Christmas, however. Defiantly, I still have my Halloween stuff up. (shakes fist in the air)

I want a war on black friday, myself

people are nuts with this shopping thing

140 laZardo  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:07:59pm

re: #130 jamesfirecat

Dude... I'm a liberal too... but put down the broad brush, you're not doing us any favors...

As I keep saying, it's hard to put that brush down when the popularity of Tea Party antics means they pick it up and paint themselves with it.

141 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:08:14pm

re: #138 theheat

I'm all for more holidays. I haven't been able to wage an effective War on Christmas, however. Defiantly, I still have my Halloween stuff up. (shakes fist in the air)

well, that's the great thing about Nightmare Before Christmas decorations, just leave them up from october to January

142 prairiefire  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:08:34pm

Oh, law, we are in for more snow starting tomorrow afternoon.

143 theheat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:08:40pm

re: #136 BryanS

South of a place called S-e-a-t-t-l-e. We gots runnin' water an' everythin'.

144 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:08:50pm

IN Other News......

It's the 50th anniversary of re: #139 WindUpBird

I want a war on black friday, myself

people are nuts with this shopping thing

"white and drizzly mid morning wednesday"

145 jaunte  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:08:59pm

re: #137 prairiefire

Just about anywhere, really.

Utah to get gun holiday on MLK day?

SALT LAKE CITY — The birthday of famed Ogden gunmaker John Browning would be celebrated as a state holiday on Martin Luther King Jr. Day under a new bill.

146 BryanS  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:09:03pm

re: #122 WindUpBird

I guess I can see nervousness and wiggedy behavior around black people, i just can't imagine why a thinking human being would just disregard the fact of what MLK did, and why he's important, it doesn't compute

it'd be like if they denied that Copernicus existed, or they thought gravity was evil

Considering the kind of people he describes, they probably think of gravity is "only a theory anyway".

Evangelical Scientists Refute Gravity With New 'Intelligent Falling' Theory

147 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:09:41pm

re: #144 wozzablog


disregard the 50th anniversary thing.

i really have to check whats in the top of a text box before i hit "post"

148 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:09:50pm

re: #137 prairiefire

That could easily happen in rural Missouri.

Or in a small town in New York State. Or pretty much anywhere; sad.

149 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:10:07pm

re: #140 laZardo

As I keep saying, it's hard to put that brush down when the popularity of Tea Party antics means they pick it up and paint themselves with it.

basically, what you're frustrated at (IMHO) is actually the phenomenon of the rural/so-con base of the GOP being energized

which is different than conservatism as a philosophy, this is a social movement, this is socially reactionary people being energized, ginned up, whatever

But they're not sitting around reading William F Buckley :D

150 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:10:09pm

re: #132 WindUpBird

I will say I am not really a big fan of Dworkin or MacKinnon, there are some really disturbing feminists trains of thought out there, at least disturbing to me

Yeah I'm not to fussed about them either. I don't know many people that are. There's disturbing trains of thoughts in most every sort of ism though. The problem is when people look at say someone like Dworkin and say "OMG every single feminist or person who speaks positively about it thinks just like Dworkin."

151 laZardo  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:10:22pm

re: #146 BryanS

Considering the kind of people he describes, they probably think of gravity is "only a theory anyway".

Evangelical Scientists Refute Gravity With New 'Intelligent Falling' Theory

Oh, it's the Onion.

Frightening how close 'satire' is getting eerily close to 'serious.'

152 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:10:38pm

re: #142 prairiefire

Oh, law, we are in for more snow starting tomorrow afternoon.

Laws yes. M-O-O-N. That spells snow!

153 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:10:46pm

re: #143 theheat

South of a place called S-e-a-t-t-l-e. We gots runnin' water an' everythin'.

south like Kent or south like Battleground? :D

154 theheat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:11:53pm

re: #153 WindUpBird

No, South like Kent-ish. I don't know if they have running water in Battleground yet, do they?

155 BryanS  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:11:58pm

re: #137 prairiefire

That could easily happen in rural Missouri.

I guess I just thought derisively of the west cost as "the left coast". You know--filled with pot smoking hippies and all. //

I guess stereotypes of all sorts are bad, huh ?

156 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:12:44pm

re: #150 Jadespring

Yeah I'm not to fussed about them either. I don't know many people that are. There's disturbing trains of thoughts in most every sort of ism though. The problem is when people look at say someone like Dworkin and say "OMG every single feminist or person who speaks positively about it thinks just like Dworkin."

oh absolutely *_*

I used to aggressively call myself a feminist and troll the sorts of herf blerf Limbaugh-loving people in my wider social network who would be easily trolled by a dude calling himself a feminist :D

I am a RIOT GRRL feminist, of course!

157 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:12:57pm

re: #135 CuriousLurker

They freak me out a little too, but in a good way. I've always had a fairly wide anti-establishment streak. I (mostly) play by the rules these days, but I didn't when I was younger. It's always possible to go too far, but still... heh.

Yeah it's in a good way for me too. I went through an anti-establishment phase too. Though I tell my parents they got of easy because it was pretty mild version relative to a lot of other people I knew then.

158 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:13:07pm

re: #145 jaunte

Just about anywhere, really.

Utah to get gun holiday on MLK day?

SALT LAKE CITY — The birthday of famed Ogden gunmaker John Browning would be celebrated as a state holiday on Martin Luther King Jr. Day under a new bill.

What.... the... fuck?

Could they miss the point any more badly?

159 BryanS  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:13:12pm

re: #143 theheat

South of a place called S-e-a-t-t-l-e. We gots runnin' water an' everythin'.

I guess it's not just the deep south where such sentiments are deeply ingrained in entire communities.

160 laZardo  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:13:36pm

re: #149 WindUpBird

basically, what you're frustrated at (IMHO) is actually the phenomenon of the rural/so-con base of the GOP being energized

which is different than conservatism as a philosophy, this is a social movement, this is socially reactionary people being energized, ginned up, whatever

But they're not sitting around reading William F Buckley :D

And if this is the kind of result we get from them being energized, they should have been best left to their churches and farms.

Maybe it's because America is so big that change comes slow if not at all, but when you realize that it's what counts as conservatism today is triggering lethal resentment against gays in Africa disguised as an anti-AIDS effort, or preventing us from innovating solutions to global warming that could cause the extinction of the human race as they know it (and who doesn't love a good apocalypse more than the religious?), yeah, it kinda gets a bit frustrating.

161 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:13:50pm

re: #154 theheat

No, South like Kent-ish. I don't know if they have running water in Battleground yet, do they?

I grew up in Kent, east hill area, my family is all there, I don't remember it being all racial, maybe rural auburn? Maybe North Bend? I dunno

162 theheat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:14:16pm

re: #146 BryanS

How thoughtful, to share a gunmaker's holiday with someone murdered with a gun.

Don't believe for one second this is anything but an insult.

163 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:14:52pm

re: #145 jaunte

Just about anywhere, really.

Utah to get gun holiday on MLK day?

SALT LAKE CITY — The birthday of famed Ogden gunmaker John Browning would be celebrated as a state holiday on Martin Luther King Jr. Day under a new bill.

It's been done.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

164 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:15:18pm

re: #156 WindUpBird

oh absolutely *_*

I used to aggressively call myself a feminist and troll the sorts of herf blerf Limbaugh-loving people in my wider social network who would be easily trolled by a dude calling himself a feminist :D

I am a RIOT GRRL feminist, of course!

I had no idea there were "waves" of feminism. A day never passes that I don't learn something new here.

165 jaunte  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:16:22pm

re: #163 wozzablog

Yup, Texas too, here the competing holiday is called 'Confederate Heroes Day'
[Link: www.infoplease.com...]

166 laZardo  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:16:42pm

re: #164 CuriousLurker

I had no idea there were "waves" of feminism. A day never passes that I don't learn something new here.

I'm a new wave feminist!

/okay, that's gonna trigger some disturbing images of what i might be on the other side of your screen...

167 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:16:49pm

re: #156 WindUpBird

oh absolutely *_*

I used to aggressively call myself a feminist and troll the sorts of herf blerf Limbaugh-loving people in my wider social network who would be easily trolled by a dude calling himself a feminist :D

I am a RIOT GRRL feminist, of course!

Cool. :D

Definitely no Dworkin in there.

168 lostlakehiker  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:17:28pm

re: #160 laZardo

And if this is the kind of result we get from them being energized, they should have been best left to their churches and farms.

Maybe it's because America is so big that change comes slow if not at all, but when you realize that it's what counts as conservatism today is triggering lethal resentment against gays in Africa disguised as an anti-AIDS effort, or preventing us from innovating solutions to global warming that could cause the extinction of the human race as they know it (and who doesn't love a good apocalypse more than the religious?), yeah, it kinda gets a bit frustrating.

This prompts a thought. Why not bill defense against AGW as Defense of the Nordic Races? After all, if the whole earth gets hot, that can't be good for native Norwegians. ///

169 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:17:45pm

re: #156 WindUpBird

oh absolutely *_*

I used to aggressively call myself a feminist and troll the sorts of herf blerf Limbaugh-loving people in my wider social network who would be easily trolled by a dude calling himself a feminist :D

I am a RIOT GRRL feminist, of course!

Nothing wrong with that....

170 BryanS  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:17:46pm

re: #151 laZardo

Oh, it's the Onion.

Frightening how close 'satire' is getting eerily close to 'serious.'

Scary how it could almost be believable--that's when The Onion is at its funniest.

Also heard of Texas governor Perry looking to run for president. My personal political preference would be someone much more conservative than Obama, but I am sick of having my only other choice be a bible thumping, creationist, social con.

171 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:17:54pm

Why would my mixer be causing interference on the computer?

It's making a statick-y sound when my minion runs the mixer.

I feel a conspiracy theory coming on.

172 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:18:16pm

re: #164 CuriousLurker

I had no idea there were "waves" of feminism. A day never passes that I don't learn something new here.

It's a regional music scene mixed with a "wave", basically. I knew a lot about all these bands because they intermixed with all the other bands I liked. So in the NW they'd put out compliation records of Northwest punk and grunge bands, you'd buy it and hear a big spread of music, and some would be Riot Grrl bands (Sleater Kinney is incredibly influential) and then there'd be male punk bands like Gas Huffer or Mudhoney, and then of course you have MELVINS

and MELVINS is not a band so much as it is a force of nature you behold in awe

173 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:18:18pm

re: #165 jaunte

Yup, Texas too, here the competing holiday is called 'Confederate Heroes Day'
[Link: www.infoplease.com...]

Oh, gross. That's so crappy. And so obvious.

174 theheat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:18:48pm

re: #163 wozzablog

Absolute horseshit. See what I mean about trivializing MLK's achievements? In death, he isn't granted any more courtesy than in life. Confederates... goddamned fucking worst of the lot, maybe even snottier than sharing a holiday with a gunmaker.

175 prairiefire  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:18:50pm

re: #148 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Or in a small town in New York State. Or pretty much anywhere; sad.

I honestly think it is going to get better.

176 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:19:04pm

re: #169 jamesfirecat

um, more a fan of

177 laZardo  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:19:15pm

re: #170 BryanS

Scary how it could almost be believable--that's when The Onion is at its funniest.

Also heard of Texas governor Perry looking to run for president. My personal political preference would be someone much more conservative than Obama, but I am sick of having my only other choice be a bible thumping, creationist, social con.

...yeah, I'm not gonna say the obvious.

178 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:19:28pm

Obviously, the Israelis have hacked Stuxnet II into my mixer.

179 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:19:55pm

re: #174 theheat

Absolute horseshit. See what I mean about trivializing MLK's achievements? In death, he isn't granted any more courtesy than in life. Confederates... goddamned fucking worst of the lot, maybe even snottier than sharing a holiday with a gunmaker.

his pro-union politics have also been essentially neutered by an America that doesn't want to admit that MLK was anti-war, anti-massive-defense-spending and pro-union


le sigh, America

180 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:20:31pm

These folks who blame The Other for our country's ills should spend a couple of weeks working in bankruptcy servicing... All I have to say is, we have met the enemy and he is us: a whole generation of people falling all over themselves to take out five- or six-digit loans against inflated home values (WOOHOO FREE MONEY TO BUY SHINY SHIT!) and an entire nation's worth of bankers falling all over themselves trying to suck people into the scheme. You want to know who broke the system? You did. You want to know who bailed out the guys who made it all possible, with whatever public money was left? Your favorite politicians did. It wasn't black people, it wasn't Socialists, it wasn't The Fifth Column of Uppity Radical Nigras, it was your friends and neighbors and the people they voted for.

"Every nation has the government it deserves" - quite possibly 100% true in this case.

Politicized racism is such a f-cking miserable, sick joke, played on the Stupid by the Thieves-in-Command. I start to understand why the hippies call people "sheep".

Sorry for the rant, this racism thing makes me mad...

re: #146 BryanS

Considering the kind of people he describes, they probably think of gravity is "only a theory anyway".

Evangelical Scientists Refute Gravity With New 'Intelligent Falling' Theory

I'm relieved to see that it's The Onion. I had to double-check, because these days you never know.

181 BryanS  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:20:38pm

re: #158 jamesfirecat

What... the... fuck?

Could they miss the point any more badly?

Yeah, because MLK day is the perfect day to celebrate guns. /

WTF indeed.

182 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:20:50pm

re: #168 lostlakehiker

This prompts a thought. Why not bill defense against AGW as Defense of the Nordic Races? After all, if the whole earth gets hot, that can't be good for native Norwegians. ///

And don't forget if there's some kind of hole in the ozone layer who is going to get sunburned first, US WHITE PEOPLE!

183 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:22:15pm

re: #158 jamesfirecat

What... the... fuck?

Could they miss the point any more badly?

oh dude that IS THEIR POINT

184 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:22:17pm

re: #175 prairiefire

I honestly think it is going to get better.

From your lips... *sigh*

185 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:22:20pm

re: #182 jamesfirecat

And don't forget if there's some kind of hole in the ozone layer who is going to get sunburned first, US WHITE PEOPLE!

White is not white is not white.

I only burn if I spent the entire winter...inside...sitting in front of a computer...(ahem)

and then go out for a lot of hours on one day.

I know people who will always burn, no matter what. They should wear SPF 3,000.

186 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:22:36pm

Well if it makes anyone feel better although it's not a holiday MLK day is recognized up here. It's talked about and taught in schools and there is always stuff in the media about it. I knew about MLK and what he did from a very young age.

187 theheat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:22:51pm

re: #182 jamesfirecat

And don't forget if there's some kind of hole in the ozone layer who is going to get sunburned first, US WHITE PEOPLE!

I decided rather than trying be all hip-hop cool, and failing miserably, the GOP should co-op "fucking magnets, how do they work?" as their swan song. ICP performing at the RNC. Why not?

188 jaunte  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:23:03pm

re: #173 CuriousLurker

I grew up in Houston and had never heard of it, but it looks like there are some people who celebrate every year.

The 2009 event was concluded with an address from SCV Texas Division Commander, Greg Manning. Commander Manning spoke of Robert E. Lee, the events leading up to the War between the States and the true cause for which Confederate Veterans fought.
189 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:23:11pm

re: #180 Pawn of the Oppressor

I still rent and I LOVE IT

I pay some money for rent, and if my toilet breaks, a guy comes and fixes it

190 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:23:30pm

Doing a google search, while the Spokane bomb story is now represented in over 300 "news" stories, I note that the blogosphere is more slowly picking up the story.

191 theheat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:23:52pm

re: #188 jaunte

Texas = Patriotic Revisionism. Alive and well.

192 laZardo  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:24:00pm

re: #185 EmmmieG

White is not white is not white.

I only burn if I spent the entire winter...inside...sitting in front of a computer...(ahem)

and then go out for a lot of hours on one day.

I know people who will always burn, no matter what. They should wear SPF 3,000.

And then there are people that deserve to burn.

Like Jersey Shore frat bros and their obsession with tanning.

193 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:24:00pm

re: #190 freetoken

Doing a google search, while the Spokane bomb story is now represented in over 300 "news" stories, I note that the blogosphere is more slowly picking up the story.

all of it or just the RW?

194 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:24:11pm

re: #191 theheat

Texas = Patriotic Revisionism. Alive and well.

worked for Stalin!

195 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:24:44pm

re: #189 WindUpBird

I still rent and I LOVE IT

I pay some money for rent, and if my toilet breaks, a guy comes and fixes it

I'm building equity, and if my toilet breaks, a guy comes and fixes it. Mr. EmmmieG.

(Getting stuff fixed is actually the #1 reason women get married. Don't tell.)

196 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:24:46pm

re: #192 laZardo

And then there are people that deserve to burn.

Like Jersey Shore frat bros and their obsession with tanning.

is that actually sun? I thought that was that weird orange oil fake tan stuff

197 theheat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:24:59pm

re: #194 WindUpBird

worked for Stalin!

Any particular reason you bring up your commie brothers? COMMIE!
//

198 laZardo  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:25:01pm

re: #187 theheat

I decided rather than trying be all hip-hop cool, and failing miserably, the GOP should co-op "fucking magnets, how do they work?" as their swan song. ICP performing at the RNC. Why not?

Considering most of their fans are trailer trash anyway...

199 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:25:18pm

re: #193 WindUpBird

Well, the google searching will tend to weight the high traffic sites like firedoglake so they show up higher, but when I went to check on HotAir HotWingnuts as my sample of the "right" there was no story.

200 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:25:21pm

re: #145 jaunte

Just about anywhere, really.

Utah to get gun holiday on MLK day?

SALT LAKE CITY — The birthday of famed Ogden gunmaker John Browning would be celebrated as a state holiday on Martin Luther King Jr. Day under a new bill.

Two points.

1. As the satisfied owner of a Colt 1911 and a fan of Browning designs, I'm generally supportive of a holiday to celebrate John Browning.

2. Can we really blame the people of Utah? I don't think they've even SEEN an actual black person.

201 BryanS  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:25:30pm

re: #171 EmmmieG

Why would my mixer be causing interference on the computer?

It's making a statick-y sound when my minion runs the mixer.

I feel a conspiracy theory coming on.

Any electrical motor creates noise, often across a broad spectrum of EM radiation . Just create your very own Faraday cage by wrapping anything you want protected in tin foil. (hey, those crazy people were onto something afterall :)

202 laZardo  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:26:14pm

re: #196 WindUpBird

is that actually sun? I thought that was that weird orange oil fake tan stuff

Hence, deserve to burn. :P

203 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:26:27pm

re: #201 BryanS

Any electrical motor creates noise, often across a broad spectrum of EM radiation . Just create your very own Faraday cage by wrapping anything you want protected in tin foil. (hey, those crazy people were onto something afterall :)

Yeah, that useful Mr. EmmmieG just identified it as the speakers picking up on stuff.

204 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:26:59pm

re: #195 EmmmieG

I'm building equity, and if my toilet breaks, a guy comes and fixes it. Mr. EmmmieG.

(Getting stuff fixed is actually the #1 reason women get married. Don't tell.)

My mathematician friend has run a great deal of numbers regarding his equity (he bought a house a while ago, he works in a pretty prestigious government contractey thing doing secret stuff) and he's figured out he would have saved a ton by renting the last 5 year, the hidden costs are driving him around the bend

I just would rather use my resources my career rather than socking it into a house, that's "equity" for me

205 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:27:23pm

re: #187 theheat

I decided rather than trying be all hip-hop cool, and failing miserably, the GOP should co-op "fucking magnets, how do they work?" as their swan song. ICP performing at the RNC. Why not?

Well to paraphrase Bill O'Rielly Fucking tides, how do they work?

206 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:28:06pm

re: #171 EmmmieG

Why would my mixer be causing interference on the computer?

It's making a statick-y sound when my minion runs the mixer.

I feel a conspiracy theory coming on.

the same reason I couldn't run my Atari computer when the TV was on, because the RF shielding wasn't good enough, it'd mess up the picture on the TV

207 theheat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:28:08pm

re: #200 Pawn of the Oppressor

2. Can we really blame the people of Utah? I don't think they've even SEEN an actual black person.

Unless you would excuse utter ignorance, yes we can blame them. It's no accident.

I have nothing against Browning. I think sharing a holiday with a man murdered with a gun is quite pointedly demeaning.

208 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:28:42pm

re: #200 Pawn of the Oppressor


2. Can we really blame the people of Utah? I don't think they've even SEEN an actual black person.

hahahah

209 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:28:45pm

re: #188 jaunte

"and the true cause for which Confederate Veterans fought"

"State's Rahts!!!"

...to own black people like farm animals.

210 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:29:01pm

Searching the FoxNews home website for "spokane" or "bomb" turns up nil.

I think the online editors know better than to run a story on it, given what the comments will become.

211 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:29:13pm

re: #200 Pawn of the Oppressor

Two points.

1. As the satisfied owner of a Colt 1911 and a fan of Browning designs, I'm generally supportive of a holiday to celebrate John Browning.

2. Can we really blame the people of Utah? I don't think they've even SEEN an actual black person.

1. It's just a bill right now. We'll see if it passes.

2. They have too.

212 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:30:00pm

re: #210 freetoken

Searching the FoxNews home website for "spokane" or "bomb" turns up nil.

I think the online editors know better than to run a story on it, given what the comments will become.

it really is something how what we used to think of as the "news" has turned into this

213 laZardo  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:30:31pm

re: #209 Pawn of the Oppressor

"State's Rahts!!!"

...to own black people like farm animals.

"Tuk er jerr!"

214 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:30:51pm

re: #212 WindUpBird

One of the top headlines on Foxnews site right now:

Taxpayers Ready to Cover Sex-Change Operations?

Some things are just more important than others...

215 jaunte  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:31:01pm

re: #191 theheat

Texas = Patriotic Revisionism. Alive and well.

No kidding. Following some links from that 'cotillion' thing, I found this:
[Link: www.roadtosecession.com...]

The South has become an economic colony of the North, used and exploited like colonies throughout the world. Politically, the North still controls the government and continues to impose its social agenda on the rest of the country at the expense of individual liberty. Meanwhile, the Supreme Court, the first federal department to infringe upon the rights of sovereign states, continues to suppress any efforts to reclaim liberty for the individual from the federal government.


yadayada

216 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:31:25pm

re: #180 Pawn of the Oppressor

This past week our CONSERVATIVE (just wanted to make that clear) government has introduced some policies around mortgages that will make them harder to get in terms of down payments and reduce the maximum number of years you can amortize them which means higher monthly payments but less interest. They're doing it to help try to avoid the mortgage troubles that have plague the US and basically make it lessen the incentives for people to get into debt that they can't afford. Lots of talk about the average Canadian debt load being really high, higher then the US average and gov't policies needed to help curb it.

I haven't paid to close attention to the reaction except for a few major condo developers ranting about it on the tv.

I don't know the details and whether it's something sneaky that's hiding something else but on the face of it it's something Harper is saying that I actually agree with.

217 BryanS  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:31:44pm

re: #200 Pawn of the Oppressor

Two points.

1. As the satisfied owner of a Colt 1911 and a fan of Browning designs, I'm generally supportive of a holiday to celebrate John Browning.

2. Can we really blame the people of Utah? I don't think they've even SEEN an actual black person.

Answer to point two---yes, we can blame them.

Point one--a holiday? For a gun maker? That's almost as freaky as Loughner posing nude in front of a mirror wearing nothing but a red g-string. (ref [Link: abcnews.go.com...]

218 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:34:18pm

Goodnight, Lizards.

219 laZardo  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:35:14pm

re: #217 BryanS

Point one--a holiday? For a gun maker? That's almost as freaky as Loughner posing nude in front of a mirror wearing nothing but a red g-string. (ref [Link: abcnews.go.com...]

Good thing I just woke up. It's not like I was hoping to get some sleep tonight.

220 theheat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:35:19pm

re: #215 jaunte

Yeah, for a bunch of supposed rough-n-ready badasses, they sure are whiny MFs. But, hey, trying to walk around with big wooden cross on your back is teh hard, so I can kinda see it.

221 BryanS  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:36:25pm

re: #205 jamesfirecat

Well to paraphrase Bill O'Rielly Fucking tides, how do they work?

I saw a clip of that recently...it was pretty clear O'Reilly was being serious. "How do tides work? Nobody knows! Therefore, god exists." What a fricken tard!

222 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:37:12pm

re: #217 BryanS

Answer to point two---yes, we can blame them.

Point one--a holiday? For a gun maker? That's almost as freaky as Loughner posing nude in front of a mirror wearing nothing but a red g-string. (ref [Link: abcnews.go.com...]

Well, why not? John Browning was a brilliant designer, and the firearms he designed are even now still being built and used to defend our freedom. And for any people who decry war profiteering, John Browning refused royalties on the machine guns and pistols made for the Army and Marines, taking instead a smaller flat fee. John Moses Browning: Superlative Gun Designer and American Patriot. That seems worthy of consideration as a state holiday.

223 laZardo  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:37:30pm

re: #216 Jadespring

This past week our CONSERVATIVE (just wanted to make that clear) government has introduced some policies around mortgages that will make them harder to get in terms of down payments and reduce the maximum number of years you can amortize them which means higher monthly payments but less interest. They're doing it to help try to avoid the mortgage troubles that have plague the US and basically make it lessen the incentives for people to get into debt that they can't afford. Lots of talk about the average Canadian debt load being really high, higher then the US average and gov't policies needed to help curb it.
.

There's a difference...

224 jaunte  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:38:04pm

re: #220 theheat

From another link, a quote from Walker Percy's Love in the Ruins:

God [was] saying, here it is, the new Eden, and it is yours because you're the apple of my eye; because you the lordly Westerners, the fierce Caucasian-Gentile-Visigoths, believed in me . . . . so I gave it all to you, gave you Israel and Greece and science and art and the lordship of the earth, and finally even gave you the new world that I blessed for you. And all you had to do was pass one little test, which was surely child's play for you .... One little test: here's a helpless man in Africa, all you have to do is not violate him. That's all. One little test: you flunk!
[Link: littleurbanity.blogspot.com...]

225 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:38:27pm

re: #171 EmmmieG

Why would my mixer be causing interference on the computer?

It's making a statick-y sound when my minion runs the mixer.

I feel a conspiracy theory coming on.

Is it set on "contrail"?

226 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:39:05pm

re: #222 Dark_Falcon

Well, why not? John Browning was a brilliant designer, and the firearms he designed are even now still being built and used to defend our freedom. And for any people who decry war profiteering, John Browning refused royalties on the machine guns and pistols made for the Army and Marines, taking instead a smaller flat fee. John Moses Browning: Superlative Gun Designer and American Patriot. That seems worthy of consideration as a state holiday.

...on a different day. There are 364 other ones, and even if you take out the bigger holidays, you still have something like 330 left.

227 laZardo  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:39:58pm

re: #225 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Is it set on "contrail"?

I think it must be an inside job. You should take it apart to see what's wrong.

228 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:40:15pm

re: #222 Dark_Falcon

Well, why not? John Browning was a brilliant designer, and the firearms he designed are even now still being built and used to defend our freedom. And for any people who decry war profiteering, John Browning refused royalties on the machine guns and pistols made for the Army and Marines, taking instead a smaller flat fee. John Moses Browning: Superlative Gun Designer and American Patriot. That seems worthy of consideration as a state holiday.

Yes Dark... but it should not be on the same day we already have a day celebrating someone who was shot to death.

How would you feel if I suggested we should have a Ghandi day to celebrate the natural futility of war and violence against our fellow men... and we can have it on November 11th.....

229 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:40:38pm

re: #227 laZardo

I think it must be an inside job. You should take it apart to see what's wrong.

At the very least, not until the minion is done making cookies.

230 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:41:32pm

re: #222 Dark_Falcon

Well, why not? John Browning was a brilliant designer, and the firearms he designed are even now still being built and used to defend our freedom. And for any people who decry war profiteering, John Browning refused royalties on the machine guns and pistols made for the Army and Marines, taking instead a smaller flat fee. John Moses Browning: Superlative Gun Designer and American Patriot. That seems worthy of consideration as a state holiday.

But not on MLK Day, though. One holiday per hero. I should have made that clear before.

231 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:42:31pm

re: #223 laZardo

There's a difference...

Not much, though. The current government of Canada has deep ties to the glibertarians in the US (especially through the connections with the tar sands in Alberta.)

232 theheat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:42:39pm

re: #226 EmmmieG

Furthermore, why not celebrate a bunch of gunmakers on the same day - like Ghandi's b-day? Maybe Mother Teresa's? How about the Pope's?
//

233 webevintage  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:43:37pm

Listen people, if we can celebrate Robert E Lee Day on the same day as MLK in Arkansas there is just no reason why King can't share his day with Browning.
/

234 theheat  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:44:24pm

re: #233 webevintage

Listen people, if we can celebrate Robert E Lee Day on the same day as MLK in Arkansas there is just no reason why King can't share his day with Browning.
/

Has anyone decided on Shoe On A Duck Day?
/

235 BryanS  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:44:46pm

re: #222 Dark_Falcon

Well, why not? John Browning was a brilliant designer, and the firearms he designed are even now still being built and used to defend our freedom. And for any people who decry war profiteering, John Browning refused royalties on the machine guns and pistols made for the Army and Marines, taking instead a smaller flat fee. John Moses Browning: Superlative Gun Designer and American Patriot. That seems worthy of consideration as a state holiday.

Why not Microsoft Day? Google Day? And then to make it the same as MLK day--bad form. Even if it were not the same as MLK day, the idea leans a bit to the weird side.

236 jaunte  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:45:12pm

re: #234 theheat

Not if it conflicts with Grabthar's Hammer Day.

237 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:45:32pm

re: #229 EmmmieG

At the very least, not until the minion is done making cookies.

I could use a minion

238 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:46:42pm

re: #237 WindUpBird

I could use a minion

Forget it. They're more work than fixing your own toilets.

239 laZardo  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:48:27pm

re: #232 theheat

Furthermore, why not celebrate a bunch of gunmakers on the same day - like Ghandi's b-day? Maybe Mother Teresa's? How about the Pope's?
//

JFK's?

240 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:51:06pm

re: #216 Jadespring

I don't know what policies can ever really help what appears to be a huge cultural problem: Greed, Materialism, and Financial Illiteracy. I've spent the better part of a year, every day, reading what people have signed and seeing the numbers they signed up for, and it's appalling. I think a lot of these folks just didn't read the damned contract in the first place. I think they took a verbal explanation - "OK we're going to give you $150,000 on a credit card, and you don't have to pay it back for thirty years, sign here" - and they didn't stop to think that the collateral is THEIR FREAKING HOUSE. "WOOHOO I have a credit card with a rap star budget!"

(HELOCs make sense if you're using the money to improve your home, with the intent to sell and upgrade in a booming housing market, but they sure didn't get used that way.)

Granted, since I work in bankruptcy, *by definition* I am looking at a sample of what went WRONG... But I've noticed a definite causal relationship between all these things. The whole house of cards was built on pie-in-the-sky, but like anything else it operated on Garbage In, Garbage Out, and there was a LOT of garbage going in.

- Those major banks that went under a couple of years ago? Yeah, their HELOC contracts are illegible, convoluted, absurd tongue-twisters of interest rate inflation and convoluted repayment systems. Thomas Jefferson would get one paragraph in and say "What is this shit? I can't read any of this."

- Predatory Lenders don't have to be predatory, they just need people to behave like prey. After you've seen enough twenty-page Schedule Fs (unsecured creditors list) crammed full of payday loan and clothing store credit card debt, with a monthly payment on a 15mpg SUV that's almost as much as my rent, you start to wonder who's really victimizing who.

- Even in my industry I see this crap... I've got co-workers with outstanding debts that could be settled easily, who don't get it taken care of. I know one woman who can't get a cell phone because they essentially want the entire two-year plan paid up front. The source of her bad credit? A bunch of two-digit medical bills that she hasn't paid. And this is somebody who runs her own business and aspires to grow that business...

I could go on... But really, if you want somebody to blame for all this economic woe, look in the mirror. Check your spending habits, look at your credit card balance, ask yourself if you need any of what you buy? Can you do better? Do you owe people money? Do you pay back your debts? Of course debt can actually be used to stimulate growth (as we've known since the 1600s or so) and sometimes bad things happen to good people who get in too deep, usually with medical bills... But I'd say about 75% of the outstanding, ludicrous debt I look at every day is just fluff. It's just bullshit stuff which makes me wonder if the concept of frugality just vanished off the face of the earth sometime in the last twenty years.

241 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:51:11pm

re: #237 WindUpBird

I could use a minion

What would you call him, WindupDog?

/

242 Kruk  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:51:24pm

re: #207 theheat

Unless you would excuse utter ignorance, yes we can blame them. It's no accident.

I have nothing against Browning. I think sharing a holiday with a man murdered with a gun is quite pointedly demeaning.

Yikes! I never thought of the fact MLK was assasinated. That takes setting the "gun holiday" on MLK day from plain clueless to deliberately insulting.

243 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 8:56:35pm

re: #240 Pawn of the Oppressor

You don't know the people I know, mostly because of your field.

Talked to a friend today who can't justify spending $500 on a laptop because....well, she knows she doesn't really need it.

My husband has no cell phone because...we don't need it. Or at least he thinks he doesn't. About two times a month I'm frustrated that I can't reach him.

244 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:01:26pm

re: #243 EmmmieG

Well I'm glad the penny-pinchers are still out there. I've joined their ranks... Or perhaps, I've become more focused. I eat well, I have toys, and I enjoy living, but I'm not chasing THINGS, though strangely enough I have more extravagant things now than I ever did before (my iPhone and motorcycle have changed my life!). Spending every day picking through the wreckage of our economy tends to make a guy thoughtful about his money.

245 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:02:11pm

re: #241 Dark_Falcon

What would you call him, WindupDog?

/

WindUpGopher........

246 laZardo  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:02:56pm

re: #245 wozzablog

WindUpGopher...

WindUpMole...

/WHOA *dramaticzoomin*

247 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:04:39pm

re: #246 laZardo

WindUpMole...

/WHOA *dramaticzoomin*

Nah, WingUpMole would make him seem like a spy from Hot Air or the Stalker Blog.

248 BryanS  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:05:21pm

re: #240 Pawn of the Oppressor

My HELOC is there for an extra emergency cushion. I've used it short term, and it sure is better than credit cards. If I ever had to carry a balance, I'd rather use a HELOC than a credit card for the interest rate alone. Of course, the irresponsible use of HELOCs you describe--using them like credit cards--also describes a bad way to use credit cards.

What I don't want to see is credit made unavailable because it is assumed people are too stupid to know how to responsibly use it. Sure, many people are too stupid to use credit responsibly. The problem we ran into in this bubble was twofold--people borrowed more than they could afford, and lenders invented mortgage backed securities that severed the relationship between the loan originator and the holder of the loan. We should have regulations require the loan originator to be on the hook for bad mortgages. That way they return to the responsible position of denying loans to people who cannot afford them or have no evidence of being responsible with their debt.

249 laZardo  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:07:36pm

re: #247 Dark_Falcon

Nah, WingUpMole would make him seem like a spy from Hot Air or the Stalker Blog.

WindUpSock.

...ewwww.

250 laZardo  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:11:29pm

BBL, gotta drive mom to airport to pick up dad.

251 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:11:40pm

re: #248 BryanS

My HELOC is there for an extra emergency cushion. I've used it short term, and it sure is better than credit cards. If I ever had to carry a balance, I'd rather use a HELOC than a credit card for the interest rate alone. Of course, the irresponsible use of HELOCs you describe--using them like credit cards--also describes a bad way to use credit cards.

What I don't want to see is credit made unavailable because it is assumed people are too stupid to know how to responsibly use it. Sure, many people are too stupid to use credit responsibly. The problem we ran into in this bubble was twofold--people borrowed more than they could afford, and lenders invented mortgage backed securities that severed the relationship between the loan originator and the holder of the loan. We should have regulations require the loan originator to be on the hook for bad mortgages. That way they return to the responsible position of denying loans to people who cannot afford them or have no evidence of being responsible with their debt.

Ratings agencies were in a position to stop it all before it started - to cut off the supply of bad loans entering the wider financial markets. The agencies were however being paid by the people putting forward the junk paper and notes.

Consumers are - essentially - stupid, experts like Ratings Agents should have called the junk paper for what it was.

There should be individual responsibillity - for sure - but the fact that these ridiculous loans could have been halted at source should never be forgotten.

252 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:14:02pm

re: #240 Pawn of the Oppressor

I hear you. I don't think this in any particular way is going to solve the overall problem but it's at least good to see it being somewhat recognized as a serious enough problem to talk about it.

I'm pretty frugal. I have some debt now but it's all derived from mostly stuff that has gone into the house. Like a well so I could have water and replacing the rotting floors. However when I was buying the house in the first place I dumped my first real estate agent because the guy kept telling me that I could afford more and seemed quite aggravated that I refused to go up to the monthly mortgage payment that their income tables said I could pay. Could turned into should and I basically told him to stuff it. That I would want to keep my payment low and not go into as much overall debt as could go technically be approved for seemed like a foreign concept. I found that attitude really troubling.

My Aunt is like the people you describe. She is always talking about her bills and her huge credit debt yet she buys, buys, buys. Goes on trips just for the fun of it and just generally throws money around. The disconnect floors me at times.

253 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:15:00pm

Evening all!

This post is really upsetting. After so many years . . .

How is everyone doing?

254 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:16:18pm

re: #240 Pawn of the Oppressor

It's also a huge cultural cause of unhappiness. People want things, money, cars, even cheap plastic crap from Walmart. Every economic level of our society consumes beyond their needs and means. The more they consume, the more they desire.
I'm realistic about my anti-consumerism though. I like it and it works for me but our economy depends on our constant consumption. I see this as my private little loophole to happiness. It's easy not to want once you figure it out but I'm not sure it would be that great if everybody was like this.

255 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:16:29pm

re: #240 Pawn of the Oppressor

I don't know what policies can ever really help what appears to be a huge cultural problem: Greed, Materialism, and Financial Illiteracy. I've spent the better part of a year, every day, reading what people have signed and seeing the numbers they signed up for, and it's appalling. I think a lot of these folks just didn't read the damned contract in the first place. I think they took a verbal explanation - "OK we're going to give you $150,000 on a credit card, and you don't have to pay it back for thirty years, sign here" - and they didn't stop to think that the collateral is THEIR FREAKING HOUSE. "WOOHOO I have a credit card with a rap star budget!"

(HELOCs make sense if you're using the money to improve your home, with the intent to sell and upgrade in a booming housing market, but they sure didn't get used that way.)

Granted, since I work in bankruptcy, *by definition* I am looking at a sample of what went WRONG... But I've noticed a definite causal relationship between all these things. The whole house of cards was built on pie-in-the-sky, but like anything else it operated on Garbage In, Garbage Out, and there was a LOT of garbage going in.

- Those major banks that went under a couple of years ago? Yeah, their HELOC contracts are illegible, convoluted, absurd tongue-twisters of interest rate inflation and convoluted repayment systems. Thomas Jefferson would get one paragraph in and say "What is this shit? I can't read any of this."

- Predatory Lenders don't have to be predatory, they just need people to behave like prey. After you've seen enough twenty-page Schedule Fs (unsecured creditors list) crammed full of payday loan and clothing store credit card debt, with a monthly payment on a 15mpg SUV that's almost as much as my rent, you start to wonder who's really victimizing who.

- Even in my industry I see this crap... I've got co-workers with outstanding debts that could be settled easily, who don't get it taken care of. I know one woman who can't get a cell phone because they essentially want the entire two-year plan paid up front. The source of her bad credit? A bunch of two-digit medical bills that she hasn't paid. And this is somebody who runs her own business and aspires to grow that business...

I could go on... But really, if you want somebody to blame for all this economic woe, look in the mirror. Check your spending habits, look at your credit card balance, ask yourself if you need any of what you buy? Can you do better? Do you owe people money? Do you pay back your debts? Of course debt can actually be used to stimulate growth (as we've known since the 1600s or so) and sometimes bad things happen to good people who get in too deep, usually with medical bills... But I'd say about 75% of the outstanding, ludicrous debt I look at every day is just fluff. It's just bullshit stuff which makes me wonder if the concept of frugality just vanished off the face of the earth sometime in the last twenty years.

I worked for a an auto finance company in a former life. It was amazing to me the shit paper the F&I guys would try to sell to us.

256 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:18:12pm

re: #254 Killgore Trout

It's also a huge cultural cause of unhappiness. People want things, money, cars, even cheap plastic crap from Walmart. Every economic level of our society consumes beyond their needs and means. The more they consume, the more they desire.
I'm realistic about my anti-consumerism though. I like it and it works for me but our economy depends on our constant consumption. I see this as my private little loophole to happiness. It's easy not to want once you figure it out but I'm not sure it would be that great if everybody was like this.

There is no such thing as "enough". "Enough" does not seem to be an American concept.

257 BryanS  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:19:09pm

re: #251 wozzablog

Ratings agencies were in a position to stop it all before it started - to cut off the supply of bad loans entering the wider financial markets. The agencies were however being paid by the people putting forward the junk paper and notes.

Consumers are - essentially - stupid, experts like Ratings Agents should have called the junk paper for what it was.

There should be individual responsibillity - for sure - but the fact that these ridiculous loans could have been halted at source should never be forgotten.

There was plenty of blame to go around--the rating agencies were one cuplrit. I think ultimately it was the mortgage backed securities that fundamentally changed how lenders handled home loans. Congress also shares some blame--though on that score it was Dems who blocked legislation to reign in fannie mae multiple times (once when repubs had both houses it was blocked by senate dems, then it was doa when dems took over bush's last 2 years)

258 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:19:43pm

re: #256 wozzablog

There is no such thing as "enough". "Enough" does not seem to be an American concept.

We are all about bigger, better, smarter, faster . . .. Not a totally bad thing if it is kept in perspective.

259 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:21:02pm

re: #255 ggt

I worked for a an auto finance company in a former life. It was amazing to me the shit paper the F&I guys would try to sell to us.

I am well.

260 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:21:11pm

All happiness comes from the desire for others to be happy.
All misery comes from the desire for oneself to be happy.
- Shantideva

261 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:22:06pm

Pleasant dreams all.

262 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:22:38pm

re: #259 Dark_Falcon

I am well.

good to hear!

263 BryanS  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:22:53pm

re: #254 Killgore Trout

It's also a huge cultural cause of unhappiness. People want things, money, cars, even cheap plastic crap from Walmart. Every economic level of our society consumes beyond their needs and means. The more they consume, the more they desire.
I'm realistic about my anti-consumerism though. I like it and it works for me but our economy depends on our constant consumption. I see this as my private little loophole to happiness. It's easy not to want once you figure it out but I'm not sure it would be that great if everybody was like this.

Consumerism is an odd thing. I see people who have much less money than me go out and buy huge TVs but struggle with the basics. While my biggest TV is a 27" screen .

264 lostlakehiker  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:22:55pm

re: #240 Pawn of the Oppressor

I don't know what policies can ever really help what appears to be a huge cultural problem: Greed, Materialism, and Financial Illiteracy. [big snip]

But I'd say about 75% of the outstanding, ludicrous debt I look at every day is just fluff. It's just bullshit stuff which makes me wonder if the concept of frugality just vanished off the face of the earth sometime in the last twenty years.


Not across the world, but here, it's taken a beating. Still, I'm going to go off the reservation, conservative-wise, and portion out much of the blame to the lenders.

Some deals are inherently unfair. There might be an odd niche use for them, but no mass market. A lot of payday loans fall into that category. Who in their right mind would borrow at several percent per month? Lending on those terms calls to mind the old-fashioned word "usury".

Nowadays, we have a lot of people who haven't been warned in clear enough terms of the perils of debt. Even if they're reasonably bright, they don't have that beaten in sense of danger. And they're not in the habit of running the numbers. They don't see the implications.

And then there's all the people who just don't have the number sense to ever see the implications. Their only defense is to live in a culture that makes frugality and money caution a virtue and a family obligation.

But we, as a collective, are making the same mistake that you see on the individual basis. What's the difference between a personal debt shipwreck and a national debt shipwreck? A nation can't so easily just throw up its hands and declare bankruptcy. For us there will be no welfare. If we default on our debt, the next time we want to buy oil, the sellers will want gold. That will run out quickly if we stick to the borrowing habit. The other choice, and the one we'd be forced to in short order, would be to sharply cut consumption of oil. We'd face a mix of prohibitive prices and rationing. Families would use the family car to get Mom to the hospital, and that would be about it.

Already, state after state is hitting the hangover phase of this debt binge. It's not pretty.

265 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:25:18pm

re: #254 Killgore Trout

It's also a huge cultural cause of unhappiness. People want things, money, cars, even cheap plastic crap from Walmart. Every economic level of our society consumes beyond their needs and means. The more they consume, the more they desire.
I'm realistic about my anti-consumerism though. I like it and it works for me but our economy depends on our constant consumption. I see this as my private little loophole to happiness. It's easy not to want once you figure it out but I'm not sure it would be that great if everybody was like this.

No, at least not in the way the system functions now. The kicker is that in the future it will have to change likely forced by outside factors that the system has created.

266 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:25:49pm

re: #264 lostlakehiker


"usury"

old term, most people are familiar with it. I think it applies.

One problem, I think, is that very few think about the consequences. There are so many ways not to suffer the consequences that most people don't know anyone who truly has lost everything due to mismanagement of their money.

So you declare BK? it is rather meaningless these days.

267 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:26:06pm

bbiab

268 lostlakehiker  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:29:15pm

re: #254 Killgore Trout

It's also a huge cultural cause of unhappiness. People want things, money, cars, even cheap plastic crap from Walmart. Every economic level of our society consumes beyond their needs and means. The more they consume, the more they desire.
I'm realistic about my anti-consumerism though. I like it and it works for me but our economy depends on our constant consumption. I see this as my private little loophole to happiness. It's easy not to want once you figure it out but I'm not sure it would be that great if everybody was like this.

When I do get stuff at Walmart, it's not crap. One can find reasonably sturdy clothing, solidly made utilitarian plastic laundry bins, towels, and so forth. LED and CF bulbs. Cheap watches that last half a decade or more and keep good time.

Groceries, at prices that match or beat the competition locally unless I want something upscale.

You can find crap to buy if you look for it, but if you know what you want and why you want it, shopping at Walmart can make sense.

269 BryanS  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:30:32pm

re: #264 lostlakehiker

Individually, we are paying down our debts. What is good for us as individuals unfortunately is bad for the economy when we all do it. Some of that is because congress has made it a lot harder for low income people to get credit, so they no longer are able to borrow.

270 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:34:20pm

re: #264 lostlakehiker

Oil just isn't about cars. The food system is entirely dependent on it from start to finish whether it's grown in country or imported--so less food and higher prices. Then there is everything else the depends on oil not just in it's manufacture but as a component. You have a problem with oil and it blows up pretty much everything because it's found somewhere in the resource chain.

271 Querent  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:35:17pm

re: #64 Jadespring

That's pretty wierd.

(and i have spent many a night in La Villa Strangiato myself)

272 sattv4u2  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:35:51pm

re: #268 lostlakehiker

Several years ago Wal Mart changed from selling mostly knock-off/ no name (read; CHEAP) stuff, but with competitors marking down brand name stuff (Best Buy,, Target,,, etc) WalMart had to add brand names to draw

273 Querent  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:38:54pm

re: #83 theheat

Don't look now, Heat, but you're about to meet a whole lot of white scaly folks who don't have any MLK Day issues.

(Aside for this "WTF? A F'ing Pipe Bomb? Losers!!" thing, of course.)

274 BryanS  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:39:00pm

re: #270 Jadespring

Oil just isn't about cars. The food system is entirely dependent on it from start to finish whether it's grown in country or imported--so less food and higher prices. Then there is everything else the depends on oil not just in it's manufacture but as a component. You have a problem with oil and it blows up pretty much everything because it's found somewhere in the resource chain.

Since about 1/3 of our corn crop now goes to ethanol, maybe we can nix the subsidies for ethanol and allow the importation of much less expensive ethanol from Brazillian sugar cane.

275 Querent  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:44:22pm

re: #132 WindUpBird

I will say I am not really a big fan of Dworkin or MacKinnon, there are some really disturbing feminists trains of thought out there, at least disturbing to me

Whoa -- something actually disturbing to WUB?! We may have reached a new level of "Don't-Go-There"...

276 tnguitarist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:48:06pm
277 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:48:14pm

re: #274 BryanS

Since about 1/3 of our corn crop now goes to ethanol, maybe we can nix the subsidies for ethanol and allow the importation of much less expensive ethanol from Brazillian sugar cane.

That doesn't solve the oil factor problem though. How would the ethanol be transported from Brazil - oil. How would it be transported around the country-oil.

And also with ethanol there's the net energy factor to deal with. Namely that it takes more energy to make it then you get out of it with most of that energy coming from fossil fuels.

278 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:53:26pm

re: #277 Jadespring

That doesn't solve the oil factor problem though. How would the ethanol be transported from Brazil - oil. How would it be transported around the country-oil.

And also with ethanol there's the net energy factor to deal with. Namely that it takes more energy to make it then you get out of it with most of that energy coming from fossil fuels.

Good point.

279 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:55:27pm

Corn is an interesting item. An amazing amount of products use corn.

280 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:55:48pm

re: #273 Querent

Don't look now, Heat, but you're about to meet a whole lot of white scaly folks who don't have any MLK Day issues.

(Aside for this "WTF? A F'ing Pipe Bomb? Losers!!" thing, of course.)

I'm seeing a parody of Weird Al here--we go from "White and Nerdy" to "White and Scaly".

281 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:57:51pm

re: #276 tnguitarist

Don't ask, don't tell at homeless shelters?

JESUS H.

And speaking of Jesus H. Christ, I'm sure we all remember the Gospel where he stops the crowd from stoning the woman taken in adultery--until one of the elders says, "But she was taken in adultery with another woman," and Jesus said, "then stone the sinful beeyotch!" and got her a good one with a big hunk of granite.

You say it didn't happen like that? Nevermind....

282 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 9:59:03pm

I'm getting to talk about Edward Bernays in my Media Psych class. Glenn would be so proud...

283 Querent  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:01:00pm

re: #280 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm seeing a parody of Weird Al here--we go from "White and Nerdy" to "White and Scaly".

Yes! And Cato's going to write it for cookbook #3...

284 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:02:15pm

re: #281 SanFranciscoZionist

JESUS H.

And speaking of Jesus H. Christ, I'm sure we all remember the Gospel where he stops the crowd from stoning the woman taken in adultery--until one of the elders says, "But she was taken in adultery with another woman," and Jesus said, "then stone the sinful beeyotch!" and got her a good one with a big hunk of granite.

You say it didn't happen like that? Nevermind...

So if the woman had been having heterosexual relations it would have been ok in a "faith-based" homeless shelter?

285 tnguitarist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:03:04pm

re: #282 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm getting to talk about Edward Bernays in my Media Psych class. Glenn would be so proud...

I work at a business that sells books. We have been pimping Beck's book that he penned with a psychiatrist. I find that extremely rich for some reason.

286 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:08:06pm

Was this posted? El Chupacabra found?

287 tnguitarist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:10:53pm

re: #286 ggt

Was this posted? El Chupacabra found?

I was watching a MST3K episode last night. The creatures in the flick looked just like that!

288 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:13:28pm

re: #287 tnguitarist

I was watching a MST3K episode last night. The creatures in the flick looked just like that!

Wiki says that they are usually coyotes that have scabies some other parasitic infection. Interesting tho.

How about this --cat-fox . Which makes no sense because a fox is part of the canine family . . .

289 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:13:46pm

re: #277 Jadespring

And also with ethanol there's the net energy factor to deal with. Namely that it takes more energy to make it then you get out of it with most of that energy coming from fossil fuels.

With the greater insolation near the equator, Brazil can grow sugar cane such that the net energy is indeed positive.

The Brazilians know this, of course, and would expand their ethyl alcohol production if they could export it to the US, but the corn state senators make sure we don't import too much Brazilian alcohol.

290 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:14:58pm

re: #288 ggt

Wiki says that they are usually coyotes that have scabies some other parasitic infection. Interesting tho.

How about this --cat-fox . Which makes no sense because a fox is part of the canine family . . .

Here is a pic of the cat-fox.

291 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:15:49pm

Brazil has long been the bane of US farm states. From soybeans to oranges to cattle, food can be grown more cheaply in Brazil than the US.

292 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:16:30pm

re: #291 freetoken

Brazil has long been the bane of US farm states. From soybeans to oranges to cattle, food can be grown more cheaply in Brazil than the US.

Why?

293 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:16:57pm

re: #292 ggt

Cheaper labor and land.

294 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:17:09pm

Oh, and the increased insolation.

295 Kruk  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:17:27pm

re: #281 SanFranciscoZionist

JESUS H.

And speaking of Jesus H. Christ, I'm sure we all remember the Gospel where he stops the crowd from stoning the woman taken in adultery--until one of the elders says, "But she was taken in adultery with another woman," and Jesus said, "then stone the sinful beeyotch!" and got her a good one with a big hunk of granite.

You say it didn't happen like that? Nevermind...

Bah! That's because Christianity has been feminised, with all that peace, love, mercy, and charity garbage.

/

296 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:17:51pm

re: #294 freetoken

Oh, and the increased insolation.

I figured they probably had a longer growing period.

297 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:18:35pm

re: #296 ggt

I figured they probably had a longer growing period.

That too, but here in California we have a near year round growing season outside of the mountains.

298 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:18:43pm

re: #295 Kruk

Bah! That's because Christianity has been feminised, with all that peace, love, mercy, and charity garbage.

/

Gave 'em the vote, reproductive rights --then everything just went to hell.

/////!

299 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:20:06pm

re: #297 freetoken

That too, but here in California we have a near year round growing season outside of the mountains.

Now, were into a subject I know next to nothing about. Does California have irrigation issues that Brazil doesn't?

300 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:21:12pm

re: #299 ggt

Water is California's #1 problem.

301 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:21:31pm

re: #284 ggt

So if the woman had been having heterosexual relations it would have been ok in a "faith-based" homeless shelter?

Well, I don't think Jesus would have thought she should be kicked out for that, either.

302 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:22:11pm

re: #285 tnguitarist

I work at a business that sells books. We have been pimping Beck's book that he penned with a psychiatrist. I find that extremely rich for some reason.

I just find the whole idea of Glenn Beck accusing someone ELSE of manipulating people's fears and desires to control them sort of hilarious.

303 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:22:29pm

re: #301 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, I don't think Jesus would have thought she should be kicked out for that, either.

No, but the hypocrisy is, we laughable if it wasn't so sad.

304 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:23:32pm

re: #303 ggt

No, but the hypocrisy is, we laughable if it wasn't so sad.

damn hands!

No, but the hypocrisy is, well laughable if it wasn't so sad.

pimf

305 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:23:48pm

re: #295 Kruk

Bah! That's because Christianity has been feminised, with all that peace, love, mercy, and charity garbage.

/

Yeah. Thank God the Conservative Bible Project is here to help.

306 Kruk  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:23:50pm

re: #298 ggt

Gave 'em the vote, reproductive rights --then everything just went to hell.

///!


Heh. There was this Britsh academic on Hannity and Colmes who said, in all seriousness, that the liberal tilt of the USA began with women getting the vote. Apparently, the only way Conservatives could compete was by reversing that mistake,

Yeah, good luck with that, fellas.

307 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:24:04pm

re: #302 SanFranciscoZionist

I just find the whole idea of Glenn Beck accusing someone ELSE of manipulating people's fears and desires to control them sort of hilarious.

No kidding. As I pointed out in that thread, Beck (and Murdoch) create their little empires by reinforcing the concepts of self-identity of their audience. Just like Madison Ave. (and Bernays) taught them.

308 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:25:23pm

re: #300 freetoken

Water is California's #1 problem.

So, Brazil has a lot of "pluses" on it's side of the t-chart in regards to growing fuel based crops.

Did anything ever come out of the idea of using sea-weed?

I haven't kept up on this issue, it's so complex.

309 tnguitarist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:26:23pm

re: #302 SanFranciscoZionist

I just find the whole idea of Glenn Beck accusing someone ELSE of manipulating people's fears and desires to control them sort of hilarious.

It's this one.

310 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:26:24pm

re: #306 Kruk

Heh. There was this Britsh academic on Hannity and Colmes who said, in all seriousness, that the liberal tilt of the USA began with women getting the vote. Apparently, the only way Conservatives could compete was by reversing that mistake,

Yeah, good luck with that, fellas.

There are a few women who would help, which boggles the mind.

311 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:27:27pm

re: #309 tnguitarist

It's this one.

Ah. Gorgeous.

312 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:28:17pm

re: #309 tnguitarist

It's this one.

The few times I've been unfortunate enough to hear Beck, it's seemed to me that he is trying to get everyone sober.

I don't think the 12-steps were meant to rehabilitate a nation.

313 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:29:18pm

re: #308 ggt


Did anything ever come out of the idea of using sea-weed?

I haven't kept up on this issue, it's so complex.

Trying to make alcohol out of anything other than sugars (i.e., simply carbohydrates) is still a non-starter. Oh yes, many start-up companies promise the world, and the US is still giving lip service to "cellulosic" ethanol, but the proof is in the pudding.

And so far, there has been no pudding served.

314 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:30:31pm

re: #289 freetoken

With the greater insolation near the equator, Brazil can grow sugar cane such that the net energy is indeed positive.

The Brazilians know this, of course, and would expand their ethyl alcohol production if they could export it to the US, but the corn state senators make sure we don't import too much Brazilian alcohol.

Yes I know they do it with net energy positive. Their production in some modeling with climate change effects could actually lead to higher yields as well unlike current modeling for the NA. I was talking about transportation costs in the future related to lawhawks scenario and just generally with more expensive oil though. Of course if tankers were made to run on something else then those costs would be mitigated.

Whether ethanol is trucked in or not it still doesn't solve or speak to the real issue that the current food system is dependent on large amounts oil and other fossil fuels and when it goes up prices across the board go up.

315 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:30:57pm

re: #313 freetoken

Trying to make alcohol out of anything other than sugars (i.e., simply carbohydrates) is still a non-starter. Oh yes, many start-up companies promise the world, and the US is still giving lip service to "cellulosic" ethanol, but the proof is in the pudding.

And so far, there has been no pudding served.

I still think that magnets are the way to go.

;0

316 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:32:05pm

In fact, the mandated use of alcohol by our government (it was written into law) to make more ethanol has hit a serious snag. So much so that it now appears certain that a real political issue over this will surface in the near future.

317 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:33:05pm

re: #316 freetoken

In fact, the mandated use of alcohol by our government (it was written into law) to make more ethanol has hit a serious snag. So much so that it now appears certain that a real political issue over this will surface in the near future.

Just in time for the election?

318 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:33:36pm

re: #291 freetoken

Brazil has long been the bane of US farm states. From soybeans to oranges to cattle, food can be grown more cheaply in Brazil than the US.

Then we should just be honest and disallow food imports from Brazil. I'd just favor honesty:

"To protect our own growers and growing capacity, we are not going to buy from Brazil. If that means higher prices, so be it. Some things are more important than costs."

If Brazil needs to ban some our products in reply, I'm good with that.

319 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:33:43pm

re: #314 Jadespring


Run the ship engines on biodiesel.

There is a bigger problem with using ethyl alcohol, though, even for the Brazilians. The requirement for fertilizer becomes very large, and as you pointed out fertilizer production is based around fossil fuels.

320 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:35:36pm

re: #317 ggt

Just in time for the election?

but who would it rebound against?

321 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:36:14pm

re: #317 ggt

Perhaps, but I doubt that Obama or the GOP candidate will want to broach the issue. The GOP candidates will give the usual affirmations in the Iowa caucuses, I expect.

However, Congress won't be able to ignore the issues. Rising food prices and rising energy prices will stir up the constituencies, I'm expecting, and a grander bargain might have to be struck with the corn state senators.

322 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:36:20pm

re: #320 Dark_Falcon

but who would it rebound against?

I'll pop the popcorn. . . .

323 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:36:49pm

re: #308 ggt

So, Brazil has a lot of "pluses" on it's side of the t-chart in regards to growing fuel based crops.

Did anything ever come out of the idea of using sea-weed?

I haven't kept up on this issue, it's so complex.

There's some fairly positive stuff going on in the world of using bacteria to make hydrocarbons. Earlier this evening I was reading about a company that has created a form of E-coli that makes hydrocarbons as a waste product. The this that have to be worked out are how to capture the hydrocarbons, stability and then if it can be produced in a large enough scale to make a difference. Right now they're claiming they can produce the equivalent of a barrel of diesel for as low as 30$. So possibilities do seem to be there but it's far from usuable yet. If this company or another one like it nails this type of bio-tech then there's potentially a whole other ball game out there.

324 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:37:41pm

re: #319 freetoken

Run the ship engines on biodiesel.

There is a bigger problem with using ethyl alcohol, though, even for the Brazilians. The requirement for fertilizer becomes very large, and as you pointed out fertilizer production is based around fossil fuels.

Well, you could use the bio-diesel as part of a turbo-electric system. That might be affordable, though turbo-electric has to be built into a ship from the first.

325 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:38:01pm

re: #318 Dark_Falcon

We already do that! Brazil keeps complaining about our protectionist policies, but the administrations (regardless of party) don't do anything because they realize that the ag interests in Congress won't let them.

326 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:38:20pm

re: #321 freetoken

Perhaps, but I doubt that Obama or the GOP candidate will want to broach the issue. The GOP candidates will give the usual affirmations in the Iowa caucuses, I expect.

However, Congress won't be able to ignore the issues. Rising food prices and rising energy prices will stir up the constituencies, I'm expecting, and a grander bargain might have to be struck with the corn state senators.

I remember hearing from someone a long talk about how the corn economy was global and all encompassing.

I tried to google it but came up short.

All I remember is that is a "big deal". Not just for ethanol.

327 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:39:39pm

re: #321 freetoken

Perhaps, but I doubt that Obama or the GOP candidate will want to broach the issue. The GOP candidates will give the usual affirmations in the Iowa caucuses, I expect.

However, Congress won't be able to ignore the issues. Rising food prices and rising energy prices will stir up the constituencies, I'm expecting, and a grander bargain might have to be struck with the corn state senators.

It'll be interesting to see what Dick Durbin and Mark Kirk do here in Illinois. People think mostly of Chicago when they think of Illinois, but this state actually produces more corn than any other state save Iowa. Even our larger urban gardens in Chicago grow corn.

328 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:41:05pm

re: #327 Dark_Falcon

It'll be interesting to see what Dick Durbin and Mark Kirk do here in Illinois. People think mostly of Chicago when they think of Illinois, but this state actually produces more corn than any other state save Iowa. Even our larger urban gardens in Chicago grow corn.

more than Indiana too?

329 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:41:19pm

re: #325 freetoken

We already do that! Brazil keeps complaining about our protectionist policies, but the administrations (regardless of party) don't do anything because they realize that the ag interests in Congress won't let them.

True, i'm just sort wishing we could just be honest about it. Just let the world know that when it comes to food, the ability to grow your own in your own country is more important than lower prices.

330 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:43:21pm

re: #329 Dark_Falcon

True, i'm just sort wishing we could just be honest about it. Just let the world know that when it comes to food, the ability to grow your own in your own country is more important than lower prices.

The global market is something that boggles my mind. All I know is that it is here and it isn't going away.

331 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:43:47pm

re: #328 ggt

more than Indiana too?

Yes, really. And Illinois actually produces more soybeans than any other US state.

332 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:44:21pm

re: #331 Dark_Falcon

Yes, really. And Illinois actually produces more soybeans than any other US state.

WOW!

333 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:46:03pm

re: #330 ggt

The global market is something that boggles my mind. All I know is that it is here and it isn't going away.

True, but certain food products are ones whose domestic production we should protect. We cannot always count on being able to import things. With TVs, its not life or death, with food it is.

334 lostlakehiker  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:46:19pm

re: #269 BryanS

Individually, we are paying down our debts. What is good for us as individuals unfortunately is bad for the economy when we all do it. Some of that is because congress has made it a lot harder for low income people to get credit, so they no longer are able to borrow.

It should be hard for people to get credit they're not likely to be able to repay. Vinnie the Loan Shark likes that kind of deal, but the govt shouldn't.

All up and down the income ladder, people are finding it harder to get more credit than is safe for them. This is a good thing. The rational person who doesn't have much income decides, of their own free will, to not contract much debt.

335 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:47:10pm

re: #329 Dark_Falcon

True, i'm just sort wishing we could just be honest about it. Just let the world know that when it comes to food, the ability to grow your own in your own country is more important than lower prices.

I always get a little freaked when people I know from Colorado tell me they have to buy dirt (topsoil) to plant a garden. Because they don't have enough.

Why would anyone go thru the trouble of going out West in a covered wagon (which was treacherous) and settle somewhere they couldn't grow their own food?

I know, gold and they could hunt.

It still seems a little strange to me, but I've always lived in the Midwest. Dirt is freakin' everywhere.

336 lostlakehiker  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:49:06pm

re: #333 Dark_Falcon

True, but certain food products are ones whose domestic production we should protect. We cannot always count on being able to import things. With TVs, its not life or death, with food it is.

In all the world, we have the greatest margin when it comes to food. Most of us could, for starters, manage a week or two with virtually no food and not be much the worse for it.

We have a wide range of climates. We have railroads. We have our own domestic oil production. Not much, but plenty to run diesel trains and a modicum of diesel trucks.

Short of war or serious AGW, we're OK on the food front.

337 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:50:39pm

re: #334 lostlakehiker

It should be hard for people to get credit they're not likely to be able to repay. Vinnie the Loan Shark likes that kind of deal, but the govt shouldn't.

All up and down the income ladder, people are finding it harder to get more credit than is safe for them. This is a good thing. The rational person who doesn't have much income decides, of their own free will, to not contract much debt.

It seems there is a separate rationality for finances, that for other activities. Emotions are involved.

Could I qualify for a luxury vehicle? Probably. Can I afford one? NO. Do I have one? NO.

338 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:51:20pm

re: #336 lostlakehiker

In all the world, we have the greatest margin when it comes to food. Most of us could, for starters, manage a week or two with virtually no food and not be much the worse for it.

We have a wide range of climates. We have railroads. We have our own domestic oil production. Not much, but plenty to run diesel trains and a modicum of diesel trucks.

Short of war or serious AGW, we're OK on the food front.

I know. But I worry. Partially because I do live in Illinois, so farm issues do affect my state greatly.

339 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:52:15pm

re: #319 freetoken

Run the ship engines on biodiesel.

There is a bigger problem with using ethyl alcohol, though, even for the Brazilians. The requirement for fertilizer becomes very large, and as you pointed out fertilizer production is based around fossil fuels.

Well yes there is that and another potentially major one which doesn't get talked about much at all. Phosphorus. Sources of cheaply mined phosphorus are finite and the latest predictions are we're going to hit peak capacity in about 30 years with reserves potentially running out in 50-100 years. To noted 50% of those reserves are in Arab nations with the other major reserves held by China.

So some major revising is on how we get is going to have to happen. It's a major upcoming problem for industrial agriculture around the globe. What I can see likely happen is that basically we're going to have to start mining our shit for it. There's already people working on the tech to do this on a large scale. It's tricky though because human shit has a lot of other crap (pun intended) both biological and chemical as well as heavy metal so to do it any sort of large way requires the ability to extract it in it's pure form. Some people say just dump composted shit like we do manure but that ends up causing more problems with soil health and build up of things we don't want in it.

340 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:52:59pm

The biggest threat to food production is AGW.
And we don't seem to give two shits about it.
Awesome.
9_9

341 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:54:11pm

re: #340 Varek Raith

The biggest threat to food production is AGW.
And we don't seem to give two shits about it.
Awesome.
9_9

Do you require food?

342 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:54:52pm

re: #341 ggt

Do you require food?

?
Yeah...
Maybe.
?

343 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:56:14pm

re: #342 Varek Raith

?
Yeah...
Maybe.
?

I'm still trying to figure out, what, exactly you are.

:)

344 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:56:35pm

re: #341 ggt

Do you require food?

Well, in the short term he could probably just suck the life out of Jedi. But yes, even Sith need nourishment. Varek's favorite is Boiled-Alive Ewok. >:D

345 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:56:45pm

re: #340 Varek Raith

The biggest threat to food production is AGW.

Worldwide, maybe. In the near term though, the US has real problems with water, and the rising price of fossil fuels.

346 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:57:08pm

re: #344 Dark_Falcon

Well, in the short term he could probably just suck the life out of Jedi. But yes, even Sith need nourishment. Varek's favorite is Boiled-Alive Ewok. >:D

So, his food requires food?

Much like humans.

347 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:57:59pm

re: #345 freetoken

Worldwide, maybe. In the near term though, the US has real problems with water, and the rising price of fossil fuels.

Aren't we a large enough (range of square miles) that if the "bread basket" shifts it would still conceivably be within our borders?

348 Kronocide  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 10:59:03pm

re: #345 freetoken

Worldwide, maybe. In the near term though, the US has real problems with water, and the rising price of fossil fuels.

The water supplies are being fought over between population centers and food production in Nevada/CA. CA is the US 'breadbasket.'

Lawns are going to start dying and golf is going to return to being a rich man's game.

349 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 11:00:47pm

re: #348 BigPapa

The water supplies are being fought over between population centers and food production in Nevada/CA. CA is the US 'breadbasket.'

Lawns are going to start dying and golf is going to return to being a rich man's game.

Could they turn off some of the fountains in Las Vegas? :)

350 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 11:02:20pm

re: #335 ggt

I always get a little freaked when people I know from Colorado tell me they have to buy dirt (topsoil) to plant a garden. Because they don't have enough.

Why would anyone go thru the trouble of going out West in a covered wagon (which was treacherous) and settle somewhere they couldn't grow their own food?

I know, gold and they could hunt.

It still seems a little strange to me, but I've always lived in the Midwest. Dirt is freakin' everywhere.

It's losing it though. Top-soil erosion is an issue as well in Ag country. It's estimated that Iowa has lost almost half it's topsoil in the last 100 years and around other areas it's on average about 25-30%. Lots was lost in flooding last year. And once it's gone in our human terms it's gone. It takes about 500 years to produce one inch of topsoil.

351 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 11:03:23pm

re: #347 ggt

Aren't we a large enough (range of square miles) that if the "bread basket" shifts it would still conceivably be within our borders?

I assume you are writing of AGW? Anyway, temperature changes imply far more than spatial movement of growing lengths. Precipitation changes (in amounts and times of year), evaporation of water, different pests, and different set of invasive plants.

And, the deep topsoil in Iowa and Illinois exist as a byproduct of the last glaciation. This excess of topsoil doesn't exist in the Dakotas.

352 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 11:04:59pm

re: #348 BigPapa

The water supplies are being fought over between population centers and food production in Nevada/CA. CA is the US 'breadbasket.'

Lawns are going to start dying and golf is going to return to being a rich man's game.

Then that's the way it will have to be. If we only have so much water, it must be used where it is really needed. And golf courses ain't it.

353 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 11:05:05pm

re: #351 freetoken

I assume you are writing of AGW? Anyway, temperature changes imply far more than spatial movement of growing lengths. Precipitation changes (in amounts and times of year), evaporation of water, different pests, and different set of invasive plants.

And, the deep topsoil in Iowa and Illinois exist as a byproduct of the last glaciation. This excess of topsoil doesn't exist in the Dakotas.

ah!

354 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 11:06:23pm

re: #350 Jadespring

It's losing it though. Top-soil erosion is an issue as well in Ag country. It's estimated that Iowa has lost almost half it's topsoil in the last 100 years and around other areas it's on average about 25-30%. Lots was lost in flooding last year. And once it's gone in our human terms it's gone. It takes about 500 years to produce one inch of topsoil.

Can't we manufacture a certain amount of topsoil --industrial composting or something?

355 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 11:07:41pm

While energy prices have risen to the level of a national political topic in elections during a few times in the past 3 decades, food prices generally have not.

However, I suspect during the next 3 decades these issues - the costs of food and energy - will again take the forefront in our political discussions.

I just fear that a lot of wackiness will follow.

356 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 11:07:46pm

re: #347 ggt

Aren't we a large enough (range of square miles) that if the "bread basket" shifts it would still conceivably be within our borders?

Not necessarily. The reason it's a bread basket is a combo nation of weather and overall climate and soil type. So conceivably the climate could shift and the weather would be conducive to growing what was produced but the soil isn't necessarily. Climate change though is not likely to just shift everything smoothly from one area to another. It's will be chaotic and these type of weather patterns that are the biggest problems for AG as well as the general unpredictability of those patterns.

357 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 11:08:47pm

re: #355 freetoken

While energy prices have risen to the level of a national political topic in elections during a few times in the past 3 decades, food prices generally have not.

However, I suspect during the next 3 decades these issues - the costs of food and energy - will again take the forefront in our political discussions.

I just fear that a lot of wackiness will follow.

oh yeah!

358 ClaudeMonet  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 11:10:34pm

re: #151 laZardo

Oh, it's the Onion.

Frightening how close 'satire' is getting eerily close to 'serious.'

I was about a third of the way through it before it dawned on me that this had to be The Onion. Then I was scared that it wasn't. "Intelligent Falling"--here I thought that was what I did in college when I'd had too much to drink.

I read a short story years ago, possibly by Heinlein, in which the world really is ending, and one of the signs is that the Alabama legislature repeals the law of gravity.

359 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 11:11:17pm

Audible.com has two audio presentations called Metatropolis and Metatropoolis: Cascadia-something.

They are a collection of short stories in audio format. The stories are set in a future America in which a lot of what we are talking about has already taken place.

The scenerios are interesting.

Just wondering if anyone else has listened?

360 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 11:12:32pm

re: #354 ggt

Can't we manufacture a certain amount of topsoil --industrial composting or something?

Doesn't quite work like that. Compost is organic material and while an important part of soil we're talking the loss of the inert parts of the soil. Plus when you're talking about millions of acres that's a whole lot of compost. The practice is already to load on manure which helps with fertility but it doesn't replace the inert structures.

361 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 11:12:32pm

re: #358 ClaudeMonet

I was about a third of the way through it before it dawned on me that this had to be The Onion. Then I was scared that it wasn't. "Intelligent Falling"--here I thought that was what I did in college when I'd had too much to drink.

I read a short story years ago, possibly by Heinlein, in which the world really is ending, and one of the signs is that the Alabama legislature repeals the law of gravity.

I always think of the Heinlein novel in which one state (California) legislated everyone a college degree so they would qualify for a good job.

362 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 11:15:11pm

re: #254 Killgore Trout

THINGS don't buy happiness. Many people haven't learned that. Especially Americans.

363 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 11:16:17pm

re: #360 Jadespring

Doesn't quite work like that. Compost is organic material and while an important part of soil we're talking the loss of the inert parts of the soil. Plus when you're talking about millions of acres that's a whole lot of compost. The practice is already to load on manure which helps with fertility but it doesn't replace the inert structures.

It still might be possible to synthesize something. But we might also check into things like the silt of rivers and see if that has things that can be mixed in. It's a worthwhile problem.

364 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 11:16:58pm

re: #362 Floral Giraffe

THINGS don't buy happiness. Many people haven't learned that. Especially Americans.

NO, but they can buy stuff that looks and feels just like it!

Oh wait, that was something else.

Red Foxx?

365 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 11:17:54pm

re: #363 Dark_Falcon

It still might be possible to synthesize something. But we might also check into things like the silt of rivers and see if that has things that can be mixed in. It's a worthwhile problem.

I think there are enough science geeks to come-up with several solutions. A combination might get us thru.

366 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 11:19:30pm

A bit on soil and crop losses just from the flood last year.

Floods strip Midwest of tons of valuable topsoil

367 freetoken  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 11:26:42pm

It's so sad and ironic to watch the wingnuts (and I continue to use that term!) come to terms with... themselves!

Buchanan's latest column is a straight up America-as-an-empire essay, explaining that American imperialism is why Middle Easterners don't like America.

So I go to Townhall and... nothing on the front page. Even in the little box that has the titles to all the latest editions of the contributing writers doesn't list it.

But it's still there.

One has to explicitly navigate to the Buchanan page at Townhall to read it. Otherwise one wouldn't know it was on Townhall.

The gulf between the isolationists (Buchanan, Paul) and the imperialists (the neocons) is widening. No?

368 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 11:28:01pm

re: #367 freetoken

It's so sad and ironic to watch the wingnuts (and I continue to use that term!) come to terms with... themselves!

Buchanan's latest column is a straight up America-as-an-empire essay, explaining that American imperialism is why Middle Easterners don't like America.

So I go to Townhall and... nothing on the front page. Even in the little box that has the titles to all the latest editions of the contributing writers doesn't list it.

But it's still there.

One has to explicitly navigate to the Buchanan page at Townhall to read it. Otherwise one wouldn't know it was on Townhall.

The gulf between the isolationists (Buchanan, Paul) and the imperialists (the neocons) is widening. No?

Political Cynic that I am . . .

The election is coming! The election is coming!

369 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 11:29:39pm

Time to leave everyone alone.

Have a great morning/day all!

370 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 11:33:55pm

re: #363 Dark_Falcon

It still might be possible to synthesize something. But we might also check into things like the silt of rivers and see if that has things that can be mixed in. It's a worthwhile problem.

Things like this have already been looked into. It's a problem that's been going on for more then a century. And while things like this could technically be feasible we're talking enormous costs to do. When soil goes into a river it flows down it so in the case of the Mississippi a large chunk of what was once northern soil is now in the gulf along with all of the other fun stuff that came with it. Nitrates in particular which is why there is now something like a 6,000-7,000 sq mile hypoxic zone at it's mouth. Most large rivers near ag land are contaminated in some way so it's debatable whether the silt could be used without doing some cleaning first. Can be done but again thats more $$$.

I read one article about a farmer who is now moving soil from his bottom lands up to the high ground every year which adds a huge number to his fuel bill. Ag states are already putting in millions of dollars to mitigate it and some have slowed it. While something like this might work to a point in some small instances it's millions of acres that this is happening too. It's a problem of scale.

The best solutions are not replacing but retaining it and that means looking at actual farming practices.

371 ClaudeMonet  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 11:35:52pm

re: #200 Pawn of the Oppressor

Two points.

1. As the satisfied owner of a Colt 1911 and a fan of Browning designs, I'm generally supportive of a holiday to celebrate John Browning.

2. Can we really blame the people of Utah? I don't think they've even SEEN an actual black person.

Sure they have. Mostly on television, but there's an NBA team in SLC.

I don't mind honoring John Browning, but tying it to MLK Day is disgusting. There's no big holiday between July 4th and Labor Day, so if you want to have a holiday, why not place it there?

re: #352 Dark_Falcon

Then that's the way it will have to be. If we only have so much water, it must be used where it is really needed. And golf courses ain't it.

Tell that to John Boehner.

372 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 11:41:55pm

re: #367 freetoken

It's so sad and ironic to watch the wingnuts (and I continue to use that term!) come to terms with... themselves!

Buchanan's latest column is a straight up America-as-an-empire essay, explaining that American imperialism is why Middle Easterners don't like America.

So I go to Townhall and... nothing on the front page. Even in the little box that has the titles to all the latest editions of the contributing writers doesn't list it.

But it's still there.

One has to explicitly navigate to the Buchanan page at Townhall to read it. Otherwise one wouldn't know it was on Townhall.

The gulf between the isolationists (Buchanan, Paul) and the imperialists (the neocons) is widening. No?

I'd use the term 'interventionists' in place of the highlighted term. Imperialism does not fit the actions of the 'neo-cons', in my opinion.

A gap between the internationalist conservatives and isolationists has always existed. Sometimes it gets glossed over, but on a fundamental level those who favor engaging the world are a strong majority among both liberals and conservatives. And that is a good thing.

373 Jadespring  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 11:44:05pm

Oh no. It's late. Gotta go get some sleep.

Night all. :)

374 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 11:44:17pm

Goodnight, all.

375 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 12:04:57am

re: #354 ggt

Can't we manufacture a certain amount of topsoil --industrial composting or something?

In the west of Ireland, there is almost no natural topsoil. People made dirt in the bad old days by composting seaweed, among other things. Unbelievable landscape. And unbelievable stone walls, built of the only resource that the land out there has in abundance.

376 freetoken  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 12:09:03am
377 freetoken  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 12:54:10am

Carmen Flores, from 1955 (still a teenager):

378 freetoken  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 1:31:03am

I'll leave all you morning crowd with a little bit of Puccini:

379 EdDantes  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 2:03:46am

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380 freetoken  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 2:55:54am

re: #379 EdDantes

Well, I've been off searching for, and reading, some anthro papers. I'm trying to get a good grasp of the accepted taxonomy of the Homo line, and predecessors. I've been reading two recent books that cover this, both of which are highly recommended:

From Lucy to Language: Revised, Updated, and Expanded

The Last Human: A Guide to Twenty-Two Species of Extinct Humans

The latter takes a slightly more critical approach than the "splitter" philosophy of the former, but the former has more information. Also, the latter's authors, while good writers, to me seem to assume too much about climates associated with each species (since we know now that all during the Pleistocene regional climates could change quite quickly, in a matter of decades.)

Unfortunately, many of the physical anthro journals are behind pay walls, such as this one:
The First Humans – Origin and Early Evolution of the Genus Homo

381 freetoken  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 3:00:24am

Back to my reading...

btw, as background music I've been listening, via iTunes, to a piano "radio" station from "radionomy . com". There are over 4000 streams of "radio" available vie iTunes - I doubt I will ever exhaust them.

382 EdDantes  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 3:12:59am

re: #380 freetoken

The taxonomy of the human line is the most mysterious of all. Modern humans were recently uncovered in Israel dating from 200,000 years ago ( I'll see if I can find a link)

Also, the Island of crete has yielded artifacts of modern humans from at least 130,000 -700,000 years ago which means they were building boats that could cross 40 miles of sea.

383 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 3:16:31am

re: #382 EdDantes

the Island of crete has yielded artifacts of modern humans from at least 130,000 -700,000 years ago

They found a Beta IPod!?!?!

384 EdDantes  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 3:19:57am

re: #383 sattv4u2

the Island of crete has yielded artifacts of modern humans from at least 130,000 -700,000 years ago

They found a Beta IPod!?!?!

Of course (batteries not included).

385 Varek Raith  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 3:29:19am

re: #383 sattv4u2

the Island of crete has yielded artifacts of modern humans from at least 130,000 -700,000 years ago

They found a Beta IPod!?!?!

Beta?
LOL, more like an early Alpha.
Morning, weirdos!
:)

386 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 3:31:37am

re: #385 Varek Raith

Beta?
LOL, more like an early Alpha.
Morning, weirdos!
:)

I was saving that for when Jean Luc Picard gets trapped in the Time Warp Continuum back to 1 million BC!

387 Tigger2005  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 3:32:07am

re: #68 Jadespring

This makes me feel so much better...

:)

Here's what happened.

At some point when you knew her personally, this person said something about depression/suicide--maybe even related to wanting to be a counselor or shrink--and your brain stored that and processed it years later. (Why not? Obscure stuff from my teens gets dredged up from my subconsciousness and turned into weird dreams all the time.)

/Mr. Monk, Dream Detective mode off

388 Varek Raith  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 3:34:30am

re: #386 sattv4u2

I was saving that for when Jean Luc Picard gets trapped in the Time Warp Continuum back to 1 million BC!

8 tracks?

389 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 3:35:39am

Sad ,, a good man !!

R. Sargent Shriver, who as founding director of the Peace Corps stood at the forefront of the New Frontier and later led President Lyndon B. Johnson’s War on Poverty, died in Bethesda, Md., yesterday, his family said
[Link: www.boston.com...]

390 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 3:36:24am

re: #388 Varek Raith

8 tracks?

I'm pretty sure in the snow he'd leave only 1 set of tracks!!!

391 EdDantes  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 3:49:04am

re: #380 freetoken

Okay, here is one link.

[Link: www.physorg.com...]

392 EdDantes  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 3:50:22am

re: #388 Varek Raith

8 tracks?

In the 70's, the highways were strewn with eight tracks.

393 researchok  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 3:52:13am

Morning, all

394 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 3:52:18am

re: #392 EdDantes

In the 70's, the highways were strewn with eight tracks.

You must have lived out in the sticks

Where I was there were HUNDREDS of trucks !!!!

wait ,,,, damn,, trAcks ,, ,,, there was a speck on my screen!!

395 EdDantes  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 3:52:55am

re: #380 freetoken

The one I was looking for.

[Link: www.physorg.com...]

396 EdDantes  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 3:59:36am

re: #394 sattv4u2


The eight track player in my car always ate the cassettes so I did what everyone else did: throw it out the fucking widow!

397 EdDantes  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 4:00:44am

re: #396 EdDantes

Thank g-d for cd's.

398 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 4:03:12am

re: #396 EdDantes

The eight track player in my car always ate the cassettes so I did what everyone else did: throw it out the fucking widow!

The 8 track player,,
The cassettes,,
Or the car !?!?!

399 EdDantes  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 4:05:08am

re: #398 sattv4u2

The 8 track player,,
The cassettes,,
Or the car !?!?!

The cassette, nimnal! (70's reference)

400 researchok  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 4:07:25am

re: #381 freetoken

No music links today?

401 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 4:08:49am

I feel hung over... but I didn't drink. Not sick... but honestly, I feel hung over.

Well, that sucks.

402 EdDantes  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 4:10:09am

Wait for it...here it comes..

403 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 4:13:01am

re: #401 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I feel hung over... but I didn't drink. Not sick... but honestly, I feel hung over.

Well, that sucks.

May as well start drinking!

Why have the negative symptoms without the (brief) pleasure!?!?

404 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 4:16:41am

re: #401 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Spicy food! The cure for everything.

405 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 4:17:42am

re: #404 Obdicut

Spicy food Bloody Mary! The cure for everything.

(the celery stick is very healthy!!)

406 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 4:17:45am

re: #404 Obdicut

One step ahead of you. Plain oatmeal.

yum.

407 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 4:22:40am

re: #406 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

One step ahead of you. Plain oatmeal.

yum.

Made a red bliss potatoe, green pepper and mushroom omelet last night before I left for work

408 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 4:23:20am

re: #407 sattv4u2

Made a red bliss potatoe, green pepper and mushroom omelet last night before I left for work


GGGAAHHHH

409 EdDantes  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 4:25:25am

This is my 600th post and my last for tonight. Good night all (pst) !

410 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 4:43:50am

re: #401 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Way to go

Your hangover and oatmeal killed the thread!

411 Jadespring  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 5:07:38am

Did someone say oatmeal?

412 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 5:08:51am

re: #411 Jadespring

Did someone say oatmeal?

Mix a little strawberry jam in it? Mmmm.

413 Jadespring  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 5:15:44am

re: #412 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Mix a little strawberry jam in it? Mmmm.

I went to this community kitchen thing the other day and the presenter was a retired chef. She also taught teens at one point for an apprentice program and she said that when she talked about oatmeal she always got 'eew gross I won't make that and eat it'. She said well you better learn how to make it well because many of you may end with jobs like in a seniors home where you'll have to make vats of. Then she whipped some up with her little trick. Cut up an apple and cook it in the water before you put the oatmeal in and then use a really good demerara sugar.

She said they always asked for seconds when she did it this way.

414 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 5:17:27am

re: #413 Jadespring

She said they always asked for seconds when she did it this way.

FBV asks for seconds no matter HOW it's cooked!!
//

415 garhighway  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 5:22:23am

Morning all.

Interesting but off-topic fact: Jacksonville, FL is a haven for gay parents:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

416 Jadespring  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 5:22:37am

re: #414 sattv4u2

She said they always asked for seconds when she did it this way.

FBV asks for seconds no matter HOW it's cooked!!
//

I think he would have asked for fourths is he could have tasted the veggie soup she made. Man was it good. I make soup but it never turns out that way. Though now it will because I know the little tricks that make the difference between a good soup and omg this is heavenly soup.

417 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 5:24:36am

re: #416 Jadespring

I think he would have asked for fourths is he could have tasted the veggie soup she made. Man was it good. I make soup but it never turns out that way. Though now it will because I know the little tricks that make the difference between a good soup and omg this is heavenly soup.

What are some of those little soup tricks?

418 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 5:27:29am

re: #417 Alouette

What are some of those little soup tricks?

You'll have to watch old Seinfeld episodes!!!

//

419 Jadespring  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 5:39:38am

re: #417 Alouette

What are some of those little soup tricks?

The key is the base and how you do the onions. I always saute onions and garlic first but not 'sweat' them. It's the sweating that really brings out the rich and deep flavor. So chop them up and put a little olive oil right in the stock pot, get them so you hear the sizzle, turn the heat right down and put the lid on. Then leave them for a bit and go back to stir. You should start seeing a little bit of golden on the pot so scrape that off and in with the onions. Repeat this until the onions go slightly golden in color and turn translucent. You can also tell by the sound. Most people think the 'sizzle' is the oil but it's actually the water and oils coming out of the onions when it stops sizzling they're sweated.

When they're at this stage then add the garlic to 'flavour the onions'. If you add it earlier you actually get a more bitter garlicly taste rather then a rich garlicly taste. Earlier the allicin in the garlic gets fried and goes more acrid which is where garlic breath comes from.

Then add chopped up tomatoes, juice and all. Then your stock, chicken or veggie. Then whatever veggies. Carrots, broccoli, cauliflower, sweet potato or potato and celery. Make sure you use the leafy part of celery as it has the most flavour (most people throw this out)

Then season, she used a bit of soy sauce, basil, paprika, tumeric and a pinch of cinnimon. She said the cinnimon was really another key. You won't taste the cinnimon but you'll notice a difference if it's not there.

Then let it simmer, for about an hour.

420 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 5:41:54am

Early Morning all!

Lawhawk? Thanks for the info on books for Living Trusts. I got this one from NOLO and it is just what I wanted.

Anyone awake?

421 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 5:46:36am

re: #420 ggt

Anyone awake?
Depends
Just want to chat5,,, sure,,,
If you need me to do sumfin for you, not so much!

422 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 5:47:02am

re: #421 sattv4u2

Anyone awake?
Depends
Just want to chat5,,, sure,,,
If you need me to do sumfin for you, not so much!

Can we chat4?

423 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 5:47:29am

re: #422 ggt

Can we chat4?

As long as you don't expect too much outta me!

424 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 5:48:04am

re: #423 sattv4u2

As long as you don't expect too much outta me!

No, just trying to stay awake myself.

Whatcha' doin'?

425 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 5:49:54am

re: #424 ggt

No, just trying to stay awake myself.

Whatcha' doin'?

Wrapping up ,my shift at work (another hour or so to go)

Testing some new equipment I had to install overnight,, so far, so good

426 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 5:50:52am

Gah.

Need to change the SQL connect string for a remote server. It keeps throwing an authentication error.

427 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 5:51:45am
428 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 5:53:13am

re: #427 ggt

How cool is this?

I would say below 32 degrees F

(it IS snow, after all!!)

429 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 5:53:54am

re: #427 ggt

re: #428 sattv4u2

I would say below 32 degrees F

(it IS snow, after all!!)

((and don't blame ME,,,, YOU'RE the one that wanted to chat!!))
//

430 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 5:54:48am

re: #428 sattv4u2

I would say below 32 degrees F

(it IS snow, after all!!)

cool as in KEWL. Next time I'll be more specific.

431 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 5:57:03am
432 Jadespring  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 5:58:03am

I'll pass on another tip about dealing with produce to help keep it fresher and not spoil as quickly. On average people tend to waste or throw out over 65% of the produce they buy. It seems so obvious now. She also has a background in microbiology so we got a lot of stuff about food and food safety that I didn't already know.

Anyways with produce, you may notice that spoilage will sometimes start in one or two spots and spread. This is from bacteria that gets on it when it's picked and packed. Every time it's touched there's bacteria transfer and 'cough cough' stuff gets on it too. So when you get it home wash the sink out with baking soda and salt. Fill it to about half full and dump in about 1/2 a cup to a cup of salt. Basically creating a saline solution. Then put the veggies in and leave them for a minute or so. Then drain them in a collinder.

Either then put them in the fridge or go one step further and peel and chop them and put them in a plastic container. The containers do better to keep the bacteria out because no matter how clean you're fridge is every time you go into it you're transfering bacteria and other things that lead to spoilage. Also if they're already pre-prepared it's more likely that they'll be used in a timely fashion. (They've even done studies on this).

433 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:00:30am

re: #432 Jadespring

Anyways with produce, you may notice that spoilage will sometimes start in one or two spots and spread. This is from bacteria

So much for the salad I was just going to have!!
/

434 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:01:20am

re: #432 Jadespring

I'll pass on another tip about dealing with produce to help keep it fresher and not spoil as quickly. On average people tend to waste or throw out over 65% of the produce they buy. It seems so obvious now. She also has a background in microbiology so we got a lot of stuff about food and food safety that I didn't already know.

Anyways with produce, you may notice that spoilage will sometimes start in one or two spots and spread. This is from bacteria that gets on it when it's picked and packed. Every time it's touched there's bacteria transfer and 'cough cough' stuff gets on it too. So when you get it home wash the sink out with baking soda and salt. Fill it to about half full and dump in about 1/2 a cup to a cup of salt. Basically creating a saline solution. Then put the veggies in and leave them for a minute or so. Then drain them in a collinder.

Either then put them in the fridge or go one step further and peel and chop them and put them in a plastic container. The containers do better to keep the bacteria out because no matter how clean you're fridge is every time you go into it you're transfering bacteria and other things that lead to spoilage. Also if they're already pre-prepared it's more likely that they'll be used in a timely fashion. (They've even done studies on this).

Good advice, but, don't chop lettuce with a knife. This makes it turn brown. Just separate the leaves and put them in a ziploc bag.

435 Jadespring  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:01:42am

re: #433 sattv4u2

Anyways with produce, you may notice that spoilage will sometimes start in one or two spots and spread. This is from bacteria

So much for the salad I was just going to have!!
/

:D

Probably shouldn't talk about meat then.

436 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:01:56am

re: #432 Jadespring

I'll pass on another tip about dealing with produce to help keep it fresher and not spoil as quickly. On average people tend to waste or throw out over 65% of the produce they buy. It seems so obvious now. She also has a background in microbiology so we got a lot of stuff about food and food safety that I didn't already know.

Anyways with produce, you may notice that spoilage will sometimes start in one or two spots and spread. This is from bacteria that gets on it when it's picked and packed. Every time it's touched there's bacteria transfer and 'cough cough' stuff gets on it too. So when you get it home wash the sink out with baking soda and salt. Fill it to about half full and dump in about 1/2 a cup to a cup of salt. Basically creating a saline solution. Then put the veggies in and leave them for a minute or so. Then drain them in a collinder.

Either then put them in the fridge or go one step further and peel and chop them and put them in a plastic container. The containers do better to keep the bacteria out because no matter how clean you're fridge is every time you go into it you're transfering bacteria and other things that lead to spoilage. Also if they're already pre-prepared it's more likely that they'll be used in a timely fashion. (They've even done studies on this).

Not me, that 65% goes into the dog dishes. Fresh stuff is good for them too and they don't really care if it is a stem or a broken leaf. In our house all stems and seeds go to the dogs.

437 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:02:12am

re: #432 Jadespring

I'll pass on another tip about dealing with produce to help keep it fresher and not spoil as quickly. On average people tend to waste or throw out over 65% of the produce they buy. It seems so obvious now. She also has a background in microbiology so we got a lot of stuff about food and food safety that I didn't already know.

Anyways with produce, you may notice that spoilage will sometimes start in one or two spots and spread. This is from bacteria that gets on it when it's picked and packed. Every time it's touched there's bacteria transfer and 'cough cough' stuff gets on it too. So when you get it home wash the sink out with baking soda and salt. Fill it to about half full and dump in about 1/2 a cup to a cup of salt. Basically creating a saline solution. Then put the veggies in and leave them for a minute or so. Then drain them in a collinder.

Either then put them in the fridge or go one step further and peel and chop them and put them in a plastic container. The containers do better to keep the bacteria out because no matter how clean you're fridge is every time you go into it you're transfering bacteria and other things that lead to spoilage. Also if they're already pre-prepared it's more likely that they'll be used in a timely fashion. (They've even done studies on this).

Interesting. My mom always used a salt water solution to soak things like strawberries before we could eat them.

438 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:03:23am

re: #437 reine.de.tout

Interesting. My mom always used a salt water solution to soak things like strawberries before we could eat them.

You can also use a TB of hydrogen peroxide in the water (as long as it bubbles).

439 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:04:03am

re: #437 reine.de.tout

Interesting. My mom always used a salt water solution to soak things like strawberries before we could eat them.

Kills the bugs.

440 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:04:12am

re: #437 reine.de.tout

Interesting. My mom always used a salt water solution to soak things like strawberries before we could eat them.

heh,, not us,,,we would sit on the back stairs and eat stuff my grandmother would take right out of her garden

Tomatoes,,, pears ,, grapes (although she took most of those to make her wine)

441 Varek Raith  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:05:21am

re: #439 Alouette

Kills the bugs.

Bugs = Protein.

442 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:11:21am

re: #441 Varek Raith

Bugs = Protein.

Bugs ,, the OTHER white meat!

443 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:12:04am

re: #442 sattv4u2

Bugs ,, the OTHER white meat!

I thought that was maggots.

444 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:13:19am

re: #443 Alouette

I thought that was maggots.

Any appetite I had is gone.

Note to self: don't read food topics on LGF in the am.

445 Jadespring  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:13:53am

re: #437 reine.de.tout

Interesting. My mom always used a salt water solution to soak things like strawberries before we could eat them.

She said a lot of these sorts of things were what people just did automatically but have been lost as basic food and cooking skills have been lost. Saltwater baths were at one time a much more common thing to do.


Oh and another thing about onions. Onions because of there root heads and their paper coatings can't be washed easily especially if you're just buying and storing them. The root head can hold a lot of microbes, especially molds. If you've ever taken the paper and out coating off and it has a slimy slippery feel that's mold goo. Don't use it even if you wash it.
She treats onions like meat, they get a separate cutting board and she won't cut up other things on the same board because of possible transfer. And wash your hands throughly after you cut them like you would after dealing with raw meat. You're not likely to get deathly sick or anything from it but too much can lead to mild symptoms of not feeling quite right.

446 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:16:43am

I think I'm going to go take a bath.

Have a great day all!

447 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:18:30am

re: #444 ggt

Any appetite I had is gone.

Note to self: don't read food topics on LGF in the am.

Wus ,.,,

When we were kids and my grandmother gave us something from her garden the rule was as long as thwe chickens hadn't pecked at it too many times, it was edible!

448 Jadespring  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:20:13am

re: #440 sattv4u2

heh,, not us,,,we would sit on the back stairs and eat stuff my grandmother would take right out of her garden

Tomatoes,,, pears ,, grapes (although she took most of those to make her wine)

That's actually way less of an issue. Anything that fresh just won't have the time to develop much of anything bacteria wise. Most of it comes down to the fact that most produce now takes a while to get from farm to table and goes through several exchanges. You have the pickers, the packers, the transfer while being in transit and the people that place it out in the store. My mom for instance grew her own onions and set them in dry storage. They lasted for several months but she ran out. The ones she buys now at the grocery store aren't lasting that long without starting to spoil. A couple of weeks tops.

449 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:20:43am

BTW ,, anyone "heard" from Walter since he's been on "the continent"?

((just wondering if he arrived safely and how's it going!))

450 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:22:05am

re: #448 Jadespring

Anything that fresh just won't have the time to develop much of anything bacteria wise

yeah ,, because chicken beaks are notoriously germ free!!

///

451 Jadespring  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:22:35am

re: #449 sattv4u2

BTW ,, anyone "heard" from Walter since he's been on "the continent"?

((just wondering if he arrived safely and how's it going!))

He was on for a bit last night. Said it's going well. He was talking about watching some political panel on french tv and getting really annoyed to the point of yelling at it.

452 Varek Raith  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:23:03am

re: #451 Jadespring

He was on for a bit last night. Said it's going well. He was talking about watching some political panel on french tv and getting really annoyed to the point of yelling at it.

Good ol' Walter!
:)

453 Jadespring  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:23:47am

re: #450 sattv4u2

Anything that fresh just won't have the time to develop much of anything bacteria wise

yeah ,, because chicken beaks are notoriously germ free!!

///

Hee, well as long as they aren't pooing directly on it. That'd be way worse.

Salmonella baby...

454 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:24:02am

re: #451 Jadespring

He was on for a bit last night. Said it's going well. He was talking about watching some political panel on french tv and getting really annoyed to the point of yelling at it.

Thanks

455 Jadespring  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:25:00am

Speaking of chickens.

Back in a bit and I need to go let them out and feed them.

456 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:28:01am

re: #455 Jadespring

Speaking of chickens.

Back in a bit and I need to go let them out and feed them.

I'll have mine fried please

457 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:29:11am

re: #455 Jadespring

re: #456 sattv4u2

I'll have mine fried please

and no beaks!

458 Jadespring  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:38:21am

re: #456 sattv4u2

I'll have mine fried please

Well if you want to come over and kill and clean one, be my guest.


And holy winter batman it's cold outside today. - 13 C and with the windchill -21 C. And here's me running outside in a sweater with no gloves. My fingers can barely type right now.

459 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:38:26am

GGAAHHH

Just remembered when I get home I have to track down why the tag lights on one of the cars aren't working.

Couldn't be anything simple (read , CHEAP) like the bulbs or a fuse ,,

NO ,, couldn't have that!!

460 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:40:02am

re: #458 Jadespring

Well if you want to come over and kill and clean one, be my guest.

And holy winter batman it's cold outside today. - 13 C and with the windchill -21 C. And here's me running outside in a sweater with no gloves. My fingers can barely type right now.

Wouldn't be my firct time

As I said, growing up Grandma had a chicken coop and occasionally one of the occupants would make a guest appearance on the Sunday Dinner Table!!

461 Jadespring  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:45:00am

re: #460 sattv4u2

Wouldn't be my firct time

As I said, growing up Grandma had a chicken coop and occasionally one of the occupants would make a guest appearance on the Sunday Dinner Table!!

I still haven't done it. I can't bring myself to do it myself. I had plans this past fall to take a few of the older ones to get someone else to do it, I know someone who will do it for 3 bucks a bird, but the coyotes got most of them in the summer.

462 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:47:02am

re: #461 Jadespring

I still haven't done it. I can't bring myself to do it myself. I had plans this past fall to take a few of the older ones to get someone else to do it, I know someone who will do it for 3 bucks a bird, but the coyotes got most of them in the summer.


:(

463 sattv4u2  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:48:18am

And on that note, the long quiet drive home beckons

464 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:57:22am

re: #441 Varek Raith

What, we're on another bug hunt? Here's the solution. Nuke it from orbit. Just to be sure.

465 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:59:29am

re: #460 sattv4u2

Wouldn't be my firct time

As I said, growing up Grandma had a chicken coop and occasionally one of the occupants would make a guest appearance on the Sunday Dinner Table!!

Actually, on that topic, apparently my wife and mother-in-law ran across a flock of wild turkeys yesterday while they were out running errands. My first observation, of course, was "Why on Earth didn't you try to catch one so we could eat it?!"

466 prairiefire  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 7:01:00am

Meredith Viera goes after Glen Beck on the Today show:[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

467 Jadespring  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 7:08:10am

re: #465 thedopefishlives

Actually, on that topic, apparently my wife and mother-in-law ran across a flock of wild turkeys yesterday while they were out running errands. My first observation, of course, was "Why on Earth didn't you try to catch one so we could eat it?!"

Have you ever tried to 'catch' a wild turkey? Lol. Mean and nasty buggers when you get up close. They'll draw blood.

468 Shropshire_Slasher  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 7:09:04am

I don't recommend eating old chickens, you can't stew out the toughness.

469 Jadespring  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 7:13:15am

re: #468 Shropshire_Slasher

I don't recommend eating old chickens, you can't stew out the toughness.

I find if you do them in a slow cooker with added acids for tenderizing (vinager or wine)they turn out fine. I have a neighbor who stews the older layers (about 2-3 years old) and has given me a couple and I've never had an issue with getting them tasty.

470 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 7:15:37am

re: #467 Jadespring

Have you ever tried to 'catch' a wild turkey? Lol. Mean and nasty buggers when you get up close. They'll draw blood.

Oh, I'm well aware. She mentioned she was close enough to them to almost reach out and touch them. I wasn't actually expecting there to be a bird on the table when I came home.

471 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 7:22:17am

If you have a strong stomach and you enjoy the most intense irony imaginable:


Glenn Beck: 'I was a very bad man'

My favorite section was where he explains how calling Obama a racist was a "joke" - just like the Simpsons or John Stewart.

Truly disturbing was seeing this fraud treated with any measure of respect by the Today show.

472 prairiefire  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 7:35:17am

re: #471 Talking Point Detective

At least she asked in him an adult question. "I'm asking you" you coddled, faux fascist celebrity.

473 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 7:50:40am

re: #465 thedopefishlives
We have Wild Turkey all over this valley....
A group is called a Rafter! Why? I have no idea!
My inlaws have 30 or 40 they feed by hand in the yard.

474 laZardo  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 7:52:06am

Paging Varek Raith...

IT'S the ultimate experience for Star Wars fans - staring forlornly off into the distance as twin suns sink into the horizon.

Yet it's not just a figment of George Lucas's imagination - twin suns are real. And here's the big news - they could be coming to Earth.

Yes, any day now we see a second sun light up the sky, if only for a matter of weeks.

The infamous red super-giant star in Orion’s nebula - Betelgeuse - is predicted to go gangbusters and the impending super-nova may reach Earth before 2012, and when it does, all of our wildest Star Wars dreams will come true.

The second biggest star in the universe is losing mass, a typical indication that a gravitation collapse is occurring.

Read more: [Link: www.news.com.au...]

My guess is the 2012 date is just there to get readers hooked. Other'n that, any truth to this?

475 prairiefire  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 7:58:27am

What a great name ~ Betelgeuse.

476 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:01:44am

re: #475 prairiefire

477 laZardo  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:02:44am

re: #476 lawhawk

I don't quite remember the movie, more like the cartoon series.

478 Slap  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:03:12am

re: #35 albusteve

oh man...I'm inspired

[Video]

Inspiration, back atcha....one of the spookiest versions I've heard.

479 Slap  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:15:06am

re: #469 Jadespring

I find if you do them in a slow cooker with added acids for tenderizing (vinager or wine)they turn out fine. I have a neighbor who stews the older layers (about 2-3 years old) and has given me a couple and I've never had an issue with getting them tasty.

A method that always works for me is a simple (Cook's Illustrated) brine -- take a cup of Diamond Kosher salt (or, a half-cup table salt), a few sprigs of rosemary and about 10 unpeeled cloves of garlic; put 'em in a quart bag, pound everything until the cloves are crushed. Add 2 cups hot water to the mixture in a stockpot, stir thoroughly and let it sit, covered, for 20-30 minutes to let the flavors blend. Add 2 QT cold water, stir to ensure the salt is thoroughly dissolved, immerse your bird, and refrigerate for an hour. Remove, wipe dry, and roast as you normally do. I've used this method for years, and have never had a bad result.

Jade - regarding veggie freshness, have you tried those "green bags" that are out on the market? I use 'em regularly, and have mostly been really impressed with their performance.

480 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:17:07am

re: #479 Slap

I brine tough chickens for a day or so, but otherwise do it similarly to you.

481 Slap  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:20:50am

re: #480 Obdicut

There's something about poultry and brining -- it's a real good fit. We've done a brined turkey for the last four years at Thanksgiving (although that's a salt/sweet brine for overnight work); I have a friend who says that ever since she started brining her chicken parts for grilling, she's never had a problem with the meat drying out.

Ah, SCIENCE!

482 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:23:02am

Too bad to check. 13-month old baby drowns after mom decides to get engrossed playing Cafe World on Facebook.

She faces 50 years in prison.

Shannon Johnson, 34, was arrested earlier this month and charged with recklessly causing the death and child abuse, according to police in Weld County, Colo.

According to an affidavit, her 13-month-old son, Jospeh, drowned Sept. 20 after Johnson left him alone in the bathtub.

Johnson said she was giving the child a bath in the morning after breakfast, according to the affidavit, and that the water level was a little higher than usual, but she figured it was safe.

She then went into the next room logged onto Facebook, she told police.

Johnson told police that she heard the boy splashing around in the tub as she checked in on her friends, shared videos and played a game called Café World, in which the user runs a digital restaurant.

The woman checked on the infant once before returning to her game.

I don't have kids, but the number one rule (which I learned in ARC First Aid/swimming courses) with kids and water is you never leave 'em alone. A baby can drown in as little as an inch of water.

483 Jadespring  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:23:19am

re: #479 Slap


Jade - regarding veggie freshness, have you tried those "green bags" that are out on the market? I use 'em regularly, and have mostly been really impressed with their performance.



I've heard of them but haven't tried them. I remember seeing some large containers for sale that are made from the same green material and on the same principles. I think I'm going to buy those and start putting my veggies in them. I do like the idea of pre-washing and I think for me at least getting in the habit of pre-cutting will help as well. I never throw stuff out, it ends up getting composted or sent to the chickens but I figure money is money and at least in the winter time when I'm not getting stuff regularly from my own garden it's an expensive way of making compost and feeding the chickens.

Red peppers right now are selling for 4 bucks a piece! Winter veggies never seem to keep as long. Makes sense they're hardly fresh as most of them have travelled thousands of miles to get to the store or have already spent several months in large storage facilities before they're shipped.

484 laZardo  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:24:54am
485 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:26:07am

re: #481 Slap

You can pretty much avoid the brining yourself if you buy a kosher turkey or chicken since the koshering process requires brining. Those birds also compare favorably in taste to other birds on the market. America's Test Kitchen has repeatedly found that Empire chickens and turkeys are best if you opt not to brine the chickens or turkeys yourself.

486 Buck  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:26:35am

re: #474 laZardo

The line: "The second biggest star in the universe is losing mass" is suspicious. I don't think anyone has sized up all the stars in the universe. That is a pretty big place, and humans have not quite been able to see all of it.

So that jumps out at me right away.

487 albusteve  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:27:07am

re: #482 lawhawk

Too bad to check. 13-month old baby drowns after mom decides to get engrossed playing Cafe World on Facebook.

She faces 50 years in prison.

I don't have kids, but the number one rule (which I learned in ARC First Aid/swimming courses) with kids and water is you never leave 'em alone. A baby can drown in as little as an inch of water.

Facebook is the cocaine of the internet

488 albusteve  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:29:46am

Repeal of ObamaCare can't come soon enough -- as several damaging provisions are set to take effect this year.

For starters, it has effectively stopped the construction of physician-owned hospitals throughout the country.

Section 6001 of the health-care law required physician-owned hospitals to obtain their Medicare certification by the end of last year. Without it, they can't treat Medicare patients. And the facilities needed to be open to get that certification.

silly writers, making stuff up

Read more: [Link: www.nypost.com...]

489 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:30:55am

re: #488 albusteve

It's the New York Post. Likelihood of getting anything right: low.

490 Slap  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:31:32am

re: #483 Jadespring

The bags are worth checking out. I've used them unrefrigerated for bananas (extended the freshness by several days) and tomatoes (a package of cherry tomatoes lasted 8 days); in the fridge, I had a batch of mushrooms I had forgotten about that was about 10 days old, and they were in good cooking shape (would not have worked raw, but I don't like raw shrooms anyway....)

The green plastic containers haven't worked nearly as well for us, but they do a decent job with fresh herbs.

As they say -- your results may vary....

491 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:32:46am

re: #490 Slap

I have also had real savings with those green bags. They help us toss less produce.

492 albusteve  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:34:18am

PHILADELPHIA – An abortion doctor who catered to minorities, immigrants and poor women was charged with eight counts of murder in the deaths of a patient and seven babies who were born alive and then killed with scissors, prosecutors said Wednesday.

Dr. Kermit Gosnell, 69, made millions of dollars over 30 years, performing as many illegal, late-term abortions as he could, prosecutors said. State regulators ignored complaints about him and failed to visit or inspect his clinic since 1993, but no charges were warranted against them, District Attorney Seth Williams said.

Authorities went to investigate drug-related complaints at the clinic last year and stumbled on what Williams called a "house of horrors."
"There were bags and bottles holding aborted fetuses were scattered throughout the building," Williams said. "There were jars, lining shelves, with severed feet that he kept for no medical purpose."

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

493 tnguitarist  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:35:18am

re: #488 albusteve

Do your research on the source. She doesn't have a dog in the fight, right? You guys consistently link to opinion pieces as if they are fact. Where are her links? Sources?

494 Slap  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:35:57am

re: #485 lawhawk

ATK are my go-to source for cooking info (they publish Cook's Illustrated). I've definitely bought the kosher birds before, but we buy local, fresh small-farm organic birds exclusively. We're lucky to have that access; if I were to find myself someplace where locally-farmed birds were not available, I'd go with Kosher in a heartbeat.

495 Buck  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:37:42am

re: #474 laZardo

Paging Varek Raith...

My guess is the 2012 date is just there to get readers hooked. Other'n that, any truth to this?

Second thing that jumps out at me....

If this happened tomorrow, and the star is 1300 light years from Earth...We would not see the results until around the year 3311. Not 2012. The second star would have to be around one light year away for the results to be visible to us by 2012. So that also jumps out and sounds seriously wrong.

496 albusteve  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:38:14am

re: #489 Obdicut

It's the New York Post. Likelihood of getting anything right: low.

halting hospital construction has been in the news for weeks...if anything the Post is just late with the story...I posted this story before by Politico I think

497 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:39:12am

re: #493 tnguitarist

Do your research on the source. She doesn't have a dog in the fight, right? You guys consistently link to opinion pieces as if they are fact. Where are her links? Sources?

To be fair to Steve the fact that he closes with "silly writers, making stuff up"

In my opinion makes it pretty clear that he doesn't think this particular story is factual in any way shape or form...

Unless he was being sarcastic when he said that in a very dry and deadpan way in which case I fail at reading inflection over the internet. yet again...

498 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:39:58am

re: #489 Obdicut

Actually, the discussion of the OTC drug changes for FSAs is something I'm quite familiar with and have written extensively on it since I use a FSA to cover OTC costs. Those changes are verifiable and do lead to higher costs to consumers.

The changes to FSAs requiring doctor notes for OTC drugs was something designed to balance the overall HCR package revenues because the FSAs reduce the AGI (and hence tax that is owed). By making it more difficult to use FSAs for OTCs, you reduce the number of people taking advantage of the FSAs and therefore increase taxable income that is subject to tax.

Moreover, the new FSA requirements increase the paperwork requirements on consumers and doctors - forcing the doctors to write notes for items that are OTC. It's a stupid requirement, but one that was written in to balance the HCR package.

499 albusteve  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:40:31am

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) labeled Chinese President Hu Jintao a “dictator,” just as President Barack Obama prepares to host the Chinese leader on Wednesday at a state dinner aimed at soothing tensions between the two world powers.

Read more: [Link: www.politico.com...]

500 Jadespring  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:40:52am

re: #487 albusteve

Facebook is the cocaine of the internet

I have a love/ hate relationship with it. I haven't logged in for a while because it was bugging the heck out of me. I have played those games and it's easy to see how psychologically they suck you in. They're designed that way and even though one knows it, suddenly wham you've been playing for hours. It's unnerving how insidious they are. I just stopped and most people don't care but since I've stopped I've had two message from people asking what was going on and expressing close to anger, because I am not returning 'gifts' (a big social taboo I guess) and not responding for help messages they post. I've totally let them down and if I don't get my act together they will 'unfriend' me. I told them they needed to get a frickin life and that a stupid game was hardly an absolute priority in my life and if they had a problem with that then go right ahead and delete me.

It's scary.

I would scrap Facebook altogether if most of my family hadn't decided that this was the main way they were going to send stuff to each other, show pics, messages etc. Pisses me off really because I'll call one of my sisters and asks how its going and whats up and she'll come back with 'well don't you know. I posted it on facebook." One time she was sick and got upset because I didn't get in contact with her about it. I should have apparently because she posted it on facebook. I said look I don't check the thing every damn day and neither do I scroll through all my friends to check their 'status'. If you want to get some info to me send me an email or do a really novel thing and pick up the phone. So what does she do? Sends me 'facebook' emails. Gah..

501 tnguitarist  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:41:18am

re: #495 Buck

Second thing that jumps out at me...

If this happened tomorrow, and the star is 1300 light years from Earth...We would not see the results until around the year 3311. Not 2012. The second star would have to be around one light year away for the results to be visible to us by 2012. So that also jumps out and sounds seriously wrong.

We would have no way to know if it happened tomorrow. Any estimates they are doing would be based on the light that is just now getting to earth.

502 iossarian  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:42:26am

re: #496 albusteve

halting hospital construction has been in the news for weeks...if anything the Post is just late with the story...I posted this story before by Politico I think

You could take a different view of this story: what is the need for new hospitals? After all, if the result of the bill is to reduce waste in the overall healthcare system, you would expect it to result in reduced levels of certain activities.

Without being a huge expert on the intricacies of healthcare costs, I do know that one of the sources of inefficiency in the US system is that physicians are incentivized to set up their own private speciality clinics, to which they can then refer patients and thus milk the insurance companies, when there might be other forms of treatment that would be equally effective but cheaper.

503 albusteve  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:42:26am

re: #493 tnguitarist

Do your research on the source. She doesn't have a dog in the fight, right? You guys consistently link to opinion pieces as if they are fact. Where are her links? Sources?

I just post what's in the news....stimulating, isn't it?

504 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:42:39am

re: #496 albusteve

It's not about halting hospital construction. It's about halting physician-owned hospital construction.

Here's some background on the subject:

[Link: www.businessweek.com...]

Buried in the deficit-reduction bill that President George W. Bush signed on Feb. 8 was a mandate that could put the kibosh on a hot trend in health care: hospitals that are partly owned and run by doctors.

For years critics have complained that when doctors invest in hospitals, conflicts of interest arise that could endanger patients and threaten the survival of general hospitals. The critique cuts across the political spectrum, voiced by the likes of Senator Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa) and Representative Pete Stark (D-Calif.). In 2003, Congress placed a moratorium on enrolling such facilities in Medicare and Medicaid while it examined the criticisms. The suspension was supposed to end on Feb. 15, but the signed budget bill requires that the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services extend the moratorium as much as six more months, while it prepares a report for Congress.

505 Buck  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:43:36am

re: #501 tnguitarist

We would have no way to know if it happened tomorrow. Any estimates they are doing would be based on the light that is just now getting to earth.

That is my point. But the article linked said "is predicted to go gangbusters and the impending super-nova". As if this was about to happen.

Mistakes like that jump out and make this hard to take seriously.

506 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:43:52am

re: #498 lawhawk

That's nice. It also has nothing to do with physician-owned hospitals.

507 albusteve  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:44:01am

re: #502 iossarian

You could take a different view of this story: what is the need for new hospitals? After all, if the result of the bill is to reduce waste in the overall healthcare system, you would expect it to result in reduced levels of certain activities.

Without being a huge expert on the intricacies of healthcare costs, I do know that one of the sources of inefficiency in the US system is that physicians are incentivized to set up their own private speciality clinics, to which they can then refer patients and thus milk the insurance companies, when there might be other forms of treatment that would be equally effective but cheaper.

maybe the new hospitals are for the 30million new patients...I dunno

508 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:45:25am

re: #507 albusteve

maybe the new hospitals are for the 30million new patients...I dunno

There aren't any new patients. The population of the US didn't increase when the health care bill passed.

And now I've got to get to work, since my schedule just collapsed by a day.

Be good, everyone.

509 iossarian  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:45:43am

re: #507 albusteve

maybe the new hospitals are for the 30million new patients...I dunno

If you don't know, then why speculate? Since emergency care was always available for those 30 million patients, maybe there's enough capacity in the system already?

Besides, as Obdicut has now pointed out several times, we are talking about physician-owned hospitals, not hospitals in general.

510 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:45:45am

re: #506 Obdicut

The second half of that op-ed:

Other measures kicking in are petty -- but punitive. For example, people can no longer use tax-free Health Savings Accounts on basic over-the-counter drugs. Instead, they must pay for a doctor's appointment -- and then get a prescription for a pricier pharmacist-dispensed drug.

Consider the case of Claritin, an allergy medication that recently was approved for OTC use. A report from the National Center for Policy Analysis found that longtime users of the drug saw their daily costs fall 80 percent, from about $2.50 to just 50 cents. ObamaCare reverses this trend by encouraging people to opt for higher-priced prescription drugs when a cheaper OTC medication would work just as well.

Read more: [Link: www.nypost.com...]

deals in part with OTC drugs (which is the part I commented on). The first part deals with 6001 - the doctor/hospital portion you commented on).

511 tnguitarist  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:47:26am

re: #505 Buck

That is my point. But the article linked said "is predicted to go gangbusters and the impending super-nova". As if this was about to happen.

Mistakes like that jump out and make this hard to take seriously.

I think they might be predicting what we would see, not the real time of it happening. In other words, they think it's gone supernova 1300 years ago.

512 albusteve  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:47:42am

The long-awaited trial of a Pakistani-American who is accused of beheading his wife is underway in Buffalo, with prosecutors describing a grisly murder by a controlling spouse and the defense arguing that the suspect is an abused husband who snapped, WGRZ reports.

remember this guy?...a head chopper

The defense argues that Hassan was verbally abused and had been threatened with violence by his wife earlier in the day.

[Link: content.usatoday.com...]

513 tnguitarist  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:48:15am

re: #503 albusteve

I just post what's in the news...stimulating, isn't it?

Opinion isn't news. Not in my world.

514 iossarian  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:48:25am

re: #510 lawhawk

The second half of that op-ed:

deals in part with OTC drugs (which is the part I commented on). The first part deals with 6001 - the doctor/hospital portion you commented on).

Presumably, the point about the OTC requirement is that it requires you to be treating an actual medical condition via an OTC drug in order to benefit from the FSA tax break. If the cheapest way of treating a medical condition is for your doctor to write you a note for an OTC drug, why would your doctor do anything else?

515 albusteve  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:49:06am

re: #509 iossarian

If you don't know, then why speculate? Since emergency care was always available for those 30 million patients, maybe there's enough capacity in the system already?

Besides, as Obdicut has now pointed out several times, we are talking about physician-owned hospitals, not hospitals in general.

are you speculating? LOL
no need to get pissy with me

516 iossarian  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:50:03am

re: #515 albusteve

are you speculating? LOL
no need to get pissy with me

Yes, I was speculating back at you! Point being, there isn't any reason to believe that there aren't enough hospitals out there already.

517 albusteve  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:50:33am

re: #513 tnguitarist

Opinion isn't news. Not in my world.

okay, sit there and grumble about semantics
I don't care....I put up stuff almost everyday....call it whatever you need to

518 Buck  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:51:40am

re: #511 tnguitarist

I think they might be predicting what we would see, not the real time of it happening. In other words, they think it's gone supernova 1300 years ago.

Right.... but saying "is predicted to go gangbusters and the impending super-nova" is a mistake, and that seriously erodes confidence in the source.

They could very easily said went gangbusters or the super-nova that happened 1300 years ago.... but they didn't.

That plus the "The second biggest star in the universe" line are serious errors, and make it hard to take anything else written by this person to be taken seriously.

519 albusteve  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:51:55am

re: #516 iossarian

Yes, I was speculating back at you! Point being, there isn't any reason to believe that there aren't enough hospitals out there already.

I didn't say there was...what's wrong with you?....bad day already?

520 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:52:26am

Dropped my fancy "Droid" phone into the potty. Went to the phone store, guy was about to grab it, I warned him where it had been.

I thanked me profusely for telling him. Said, people generally wait until he's handled it for a few minutes.

Really?

521 SpaceJesus  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:52:37am

LBJ orders pants

522 iossarian  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:53:54am

re: #519 albusteve

I didn't say there was...what's wrong with you?...bad day already?

No - sorry for the unwarranted aggression. Internet tone of voice and all that.

BBL.

523 Jadespring  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:54:13am

re: #520 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Dropped my fancy "Droid" phone into the potty. Went to the phone store, guy was about to grab it, I warned him where it had been.

I thanked me profusely for telling him. Said, people generally wait until he's handled it for a few minutes.

Really?

How did you manage to drop it in the potty?

And I'm assuming from the guys comments potty phone dropping isn't a rare thing?

524 tnguitarist  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:54:53am

re: #518 Buck

Right... but saying "is predicted to go gangbusters and the impending super-nova" is a mistake, and that seriously erodes confidence in the source.

They could very easily said went gangbusters or the super-nova that happened 1300 years ago... but they didn't.

That plus the "The second biggest star in the universe" line are serious errors, and make it hard to take anything else written by this person to be taken seriously.

When it comes to astronomy, all you can do is predict based on the evidence you have. Things are so far away, we don't know anything that happens until that light reaches Earth. As far as the second largest star in the universe goes, maybe they meant the second largest 'known' star. Dunno.

525 albusteve  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:56:57am

(CNN) -- The mayor of crime-ridden Camden, New Jersey, has announced layoffs of nearly half of the city's police force and close to a third of its fire department.
Redd said she was unable to secure the $8 million in budget concessions that she says she needed to save the jobs of up to 100 police officers and many of the city's firefighters.
The mayor -- who said she will continue negotiations with police and fire unions -- had been asking the workers to pay more for their health care, freeze or reduce their salaries and take furlough days.

has CNN gotten this story straight?

New Jersey's Camden lays off police and firefighters

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

Reuters has it up too

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

526 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:57:27am

re: #523 Jadespring

How did you manage to drop it in the potty?

Had the phone in the bathroom while I was brushing my teeth. Picked it up, and it slipped out of my hand. I couldn't make that perfect of a throw again if I tried.

Glad it was insured. $100.00 instead of $400.00

527 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:58:19am

re: #525 albusteve

Ever been to Camden?

Whoa.

528 albusteve  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:59:00am

re: #526 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Had the phone in the bathroom while I was brushing my teeth. Picked it up, and it slipped out of my hand. I couldn't make that perfect of a throw again if I tried.

Glad it was insured. $100.00 instead of $400.00

I had a phone pop out of my hoodie pocket when I hitched it up to pee...a gonner

529 albusteve  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:59:44am

re: #527 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Ever been to Camden?

Whoa.

no, probably never will either

530 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:00:34am

re: #528 albusteve

If you ever drop your keys into a river of molten lava, let 'em go, because, man, they're gone. - Jack Handey

531 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:01:10am

re: #529 albusteve

I wouldn't recommend it. It is a terrible, frightening place. I'll never go back, that's for dang sure.

532 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:01:42am

re: #514 iossarian

FSAs don't require you to state a medical condition as a requirement for obtaining the tax benefit. You simply need to show proof of purchase for the OTC drugs (or other medical related items) pre-HCR.

If the cheapest thing for you to do is go and buy yourself asprin or claritin or any other drugs on the OTC list without needing a doctor, but that purchase was previously covered by FSA (and therefore purchased subject to the tax benefits of a FSA), how is it cheaper now that the tax benefit requires you to get a doctor's note?

The new requirements costs doctors time and money in administering the requirement, and insurers have to absorb the additional costs of administering the FSA requirements.

The FSA change essentially guts the purpose of OTC drugs (not having to go to a doctor to get common meds that are considered safe and effective for many common ailments) and the change results in higher costs to insurers, doctors, and consumers.

533 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:03:09am

re: #532 lawhawk

IMO, the FSA change is just their to get folks to pay out of pocket and not worry about tax implications.

534 AK-47%  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:04:30am

re: #530 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

If you ever drop your keys into a river of molten lava, let 'em go, because, man, they're gone. - Jack Handey

If you drop your ring into the fires of Mount Doom, let it go, because your Evil Powers are gone...

535 albusteve  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:05:54am

wound care
brb

536 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:06:26am

re: #525 albusteve

The general gist of the articles is correct. Camden is laying off hundreds of cops and firefighters after those unions refused to make concessions to keep the workforce at close to their existing levels. With the big budget deficit with the city, the city leaders claimed they had no choice but to slash the workforce.

Mayor Dana Redd and the police union held a last-ditch meeting Monday night but failed to reach an agreement.

"Instead of protecting and serving the city, the residents of Camden, they’re choosing to protect their high salaries," Redd said. She said union concessions could still bring back 100 officers, but didn’t provide details.

The Fraternal Order of Police said the deal would have included a 20 percent pay cut. Union officials said they were open to wage freezes and furlough days.

"To say the union isn’t bringing anything to the table is just not right," said Ed Brannigan, president of the state union. "But there’s only so much you can give. How much blood do you have?"

Cuts to the police department were the largest chunk of the city’s layoff plan, and one-sixth of the city’s public workers were axed today. That included 67 firefighters and 100 non-uniformed employees such as clerks.

"I’ve dreaded this day," City Council President Frank Moran said. "We’ve looked under every rock, turned over every stone, to really look at measures that would save as many jobs as possible."

Camden has a $26.5 million deficit and is expecting to collect only $21 million in local tax revenue for a $138 million budget. The state is already providing Camden $69 million in financial aid for struggling towns, and the State Police have a regular presence in the city. Gov. Chris Christie last month warned Camden shouldn’t expect any more help, saying, "We are not going to have the taxpayers of New Jersey be an open checkbook."

Camden is one of the worst run municipalities in the country and has one of the worst crime rates in the nation as well. These cuts aren't going to improve matters either.

It's a situation that will likely be repeated in places like Detroit where the tax base has eroded and tax revenues are a fraction of what they were just a few years ago, but spending levels have never adjusted to deal with the situation.

537 Ericus58  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:06:59am

re: #534 ralphieboy

If you drop your ring into the fires of Mount Doom, let it go, because your Evil Powers are gone...

"One Ring to Rule them all..."

538 Jadespring  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:07:15am

Well I probably should go it's getting strange out there. I just got called a commie-obamafacist else board during a discussion with a (militant) vegan about ecology relating to farm practices. My sin was talking about how just because it's vegetables doesn't automatically mean it's 'sustainable' or ecology sound and that ecologically (science) has shown that especially in some regions having animals as part of the growing system (grass fed) is vital to long term health and production when you look at how the ecological systems (science again) work in reality.

How they jumped from that to commie obamafacist! is puzzling. People are down right weird at times.

539 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:08:07am

re: #533 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That's the net effect - but the point of the FSA was to provide a tax benefit for taking control of your medical expenses. Eliminating the OTC requirement enabled the Administration and Congress to claim a savings of something like $6 billion towards balancing the HCR package as a whole. It was a revenue item - despite the higher cost implications (and that it goes against reducing costs of health care).

540 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:09:40am

re: #527 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I've been to Camden several times - to get to the Adventure Aquarium on the Delaware (which is next to the USS New Jersey battleship). It's a very nice aquarium and about the only reason to venture into Camden. The rest of the city is a horror show.

541 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:13:52am

re: #540 lawhawk

I've been to Camden several times - to get to the Adventure Aquarium on the Delaware (which is next to the USS New Jersey battleship). It's a very nice aquarium and about the only reason to venture into Camden. The rest of the city is a horror show.

How much worse than Detroit can it possibly be?

542 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:14:10am

re: #539 lawhawk

The Feds could complicate a wet dream.

543 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:16:01am

re: #541 Alouette

How much worse than Detroit can it possibly be?

I've been to both. Different sides of a very same, and very sad coin.

544 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:16:37am

Drudge linking to the Birthers at WND this morning : Hawaii governor can't find Obama birth certificate...

545 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:17:45am

re: #541 Alouette

How much worse than Detroit can it possibly be?

Oh. One difference. The abandoned parts of Detroit are fairly abandoned.

The abandoned parts of Camden are heavily populated.

There's a guy in Camden (who's job is on the line) who's job it is to make sure houses are empty of squatters before he boards them up.

I am completely serious.

546 Slap  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:20:09am

re: #538 Jadespring

I'm in the natural foods industry -- "miltant vegans" are a curse upon us all.

You spoke of a sane approach, silly. Don't you know that's obamafascist?

Try getting sanity from the newest sub-group, militant raw food advocates. (Apparently, cooking is bad.)

Yeesh. If we didn't occasionally get a benefit of some sort from the odd outsiders' view of the foodchain, I'd have NO patience whatsoever with them....

547 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:21:04am

re: #546 Slap

I generally can not abide vegetarians. Smug pricks, most of them.

548 lawhawk  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:21:27am

This is a story destined to make the rounds in the next few days and coming months.

A Philadelphia abortion doctor has been charged with eight counts of murder in the deaths of a woman patient and seven babies that prosecutors say were born alive and then killed with scissors.

The charges against Dr. Kermit Gosnell follow a long grand jury investigation.

District Attorney Seth Williams said state regulators ignored complaints and failed to visit the clinic since 1993.

Williams said the women were subjected to squalid and barbaric conditions at Gosnell's Women's Medical Society, which was shut down last year.

Gosnell has been named in at least 10 malpractice suits, including one over the death of a woman who died of sepsis and a perforated uterus.

Pro life groups will cite this as a reason to make abortion illegal, and pro choice will cite this as a reason to keep it legal with better oversight - to prevent back room abortions that engage in unethical, illegal, or medical malpractice.

549 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:24:52am

re: #547 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I generally can not abide vegetarians. Smug pricks, most of them.


Okay, you know how you only use ten percent of your brain? That's because the other 90 percent is filled with curds and whey

550 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:25:09am

re: #548 lawhawk

This is a story destined to make the rounds in the next few days and coming months.

Pro life groups will cite this as a reason to make abortion illegal, and pro choice will cite this as a reason to keep it legal with better oversight - to prevent back room abortions that engage in unethical, illegal, or medical malpractice.

Making abortion illegal will just result in all abortion providers becoming like Dr. Gosnell.

551 Ericus58  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:29:32am

re: #547 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I generally can not abide vegetarians. Smug pricks, most of them.

*raises arm to point at FBV*

"He is not of the pod!!"

552 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:30:56am

re: #548 lawhawk

Oh, goodness.

What a world.

553 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:31:51am

re: #549 jamesfirecat

That was Number 3, right?

554 Jadespring  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:35:24am

re: #546 Slap

I'm in the natural foods industry -- "miltant vegans" are a curse upon us all.

You spoke of a sane approach, silly. Don't you know that's obamafascist?

Try getting sanity from the newest sub-group, militant raw food advocates. (Apparently, cooking is bad.)

Yeesh. If we didn't occasionally get a benefit of some sort from the odd outsiders' view of the foodchain, I'd have NO patience whatsoever with them...

Sounds like you know exactly the types I'm talking about. :)

I can at least understand people that argue for veganism on ethical grounds related to killing and using animals. I don't see it that way but I can get it. What bugs me more and more though is the ecological arguments and while I wholeheartedly agree that if one is talking about the current industrialized factory system then sure. However taking that and saying the overall ecological solution is no livestock whatsover in agricultural systems is quite argubly just as wrong from an ecological stand point or at least in terms of long term ecologically successful (sustainable) farming practices especially when looking at different regions. This whole idea that just because it's vegetables and plants means automatically ecological sounds and sustainable is pervasive. Historically even before the industrial farming system developed with it's very high levels of meat production societies farmed themselves into breakdown as well. It's just not a meat or no meat issue.

So I end up sitting in this murky middle ground where lots of pure veggies end up hating me and lots of meat eaters end up hating me when I talk about less meat eating overall. :) Environmental veggies tend to be the worst though.

555 Ericus58  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:37:49am

re: #547 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My BIL and his family (adult kids and their families also) are Pescatarians.
[Link: vegetarian.about.com...]

The only meat my BIL still misses is an upland bird from his hunting days in N.Dakota.

556 Jadespring  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:41:15am

re: #547 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I generally can not abide vegetarians. Smug pricks, most of them.

I don't think you're one of those. :)


I used to be veggie and I hope I was never smug but I probably was at some point. Tried not to be though.

I really don't have a problem with veggies or the idea of veggie. There are many reasons why people choose it. It's the black and white ecological argument that just gets on my nerves at times. :)

557 Slap  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:48:11am

re: #554 Jadespring

Sounds like you know exactly the types I'm talking about. :)

I can at least understand people that argue for veganism on ethical grounds related to killing and using animals. I don't see it that way but I can get it. What bugs me more and more though is the ecological arguments and while I wholeheartedly agree that if one is talking about the current industrialized factory system then sure. However taking that and saying the overall ecological solution is no livestock whatsover in agricultural systems is quite argubly just as wrong from an ecological stand point or at least in terms of long term ecologically successful (sustainable) farming practices especially when looking at different regions. This whole idea that just because it's vegetables and plants means automatically ecological sounds and sustainable is pervasive. Historically even before the industrial farming system developed with it's very high levels of meat production societies farmed themselves into breakdown as well. It's just not a meat or no meat issue.

So I end up sitting in this murky middle ground where lots of pure veggies end up hating me and lots of meat eaters end up hating me when I talk about less meat eating overall. :) Environmental veggies tend to be the worst though.

Re: the bolded bit: OY, do I ever!

It's really hard to deal with fundie evangelicals of any philosophical cant, methinks.

I',m real fortunate to be involved with a group that believes there are many "right" ways to eat -- our concerns are the process. We've got a list of banned additives, we carry exclusively organic produce from (primarily) local farmers, our seafood is in full accordance with the Fish Wise recommendations (a GREAT program, IMO), our meat producers, all local, must meet feed/environment/sustainability/humane treatment standards. The emphasis is on cleanly-produced food of all types, without judging dietary style.

This is a sane approach to food, to me. But like with anything, I'm a huge proponent of TRYING to see the big picture, whenever possible....

In short, I'm nuts.

558 Ericus58  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:48:33am

Bomb at Spokane MLK parade was sophisticated.

[Link: seattletimes.nwsource.com...]

"SPOKANE, Wash. —

A bomb left along the route of a Martin Luther King Jr. Day parade was sophisticated, with a remote detonator and the ability to cause many casualties, an official familiar with the case said Wednesday.

The bomb, which was defused without incident on Monday, was the most potentially destructive he had ever seen, said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to release information about the investigation.

"They haven't seen anything like this in this country," the official said. "This was the worst device, and most intentional device, I've ever seen."

559 albusteve  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:50:10am

re: #541 Alouette

How much worse than Detroit can it possibly be?


Detroit....I'm from the Kazoo, I've seen the 'destruction' and in a way it has a morbid fascination about it

560 Slap  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:51:32am

re: #559 albusteve

Detroit...I'm from the Kazoo, I've seen the 'destruction' and in a way it has a morbid fascination about it

Yet, somehow, they still manage to keep producing raw wonders like the Black Keys and the White Stripes.....

561 Buck  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 10:08:12am

re: #548 lawhawk

This is a story destined to make the rounds in the next few days and coming months.

Pro life groups will cite this as a reason to make abortion illegal, and pro choice will cite this as a reason to keep it legal with better oversight - to prevent back room abortions that engage in unethical, illegal, or medical malpractice.

IMO, this is only about late term abortions.

562 Jadespring  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 10:16:11am

re: #557 Slap

Re: the bolded bit: OY, do I ever!

It's really hard to deal with fundie evangelicals of any philosophical cant, methinks.

I',m real fortunate to be involved with a group that believes there are many "right" ways to eat -- our concerns are the process. We've got a list of banned additives, we carry exclusively organic produce from (primarily) local farmers, our seafood is in full accordance with the Fish Wise recommendations (a GREAT program, IMO), our meat producers, all local, must meet feed/environment/sustainability/humane treatment standards. The emphasis is on cleanly-produced food of all types, without judging dietary style.

This is a sane approach to food, to me. But like with anything, I'm a huge proponent of TRYING to see the big picture, whenever possible...

In short, I'm nuts.

That sounds like a great thing to be involved in and I think it really is a sane approach. Of course I am biased as it sounds pretty close to how I look at it. ;)

Of course if someone starts throwing holier then thou type stuff my way then I will makes comments.

Like the poor person who got annoyed with me that I will cull my chicken flock and why didn't I just eat the eggs and let the chickens live till they die. That's why she just eats eggs you see cause the hens live. Only free range eggs too from a small farmer so they live well.

I then explained to her how egg laying and actual chicken farming works and that it doesn't matter whether it's free range or not, chickens are going to die unless you get the eggs from someone who treats them more as pets. Roosters do not lay eggs and regardless of the system they are extra things that have to be dealt with so pretty much two things happened the chicks are killed as soon as it's determined they're male or they're go towards being meat and are slaughtered as soon as they reach the proper weight. So she says "Well why don't you just buy hens then?" I had to explain that even if I wasn't doing the slaughter that regardless of where the hens came from like a hatchery they were still doing something with all the extra roosters. There's not a way to make it only hens that come out of the eggs.
Then there are the facts that hens only produce eggs for so long and most egg farmers who aren't just hobbists end up culling them because it costs too much to keep birds around that are just eating. Sucks but that's the truth of it.

So got even more mad at me after that. I can understand why, it broke a part the illusion that "just eggs means no killing. " That doesn't mean that's a reason for people to not just eat eggs or dairy (same sort of pattern in dairy as well) it's just that holding holier then thou illusions about it's pureness (no animal gets killed in the process) is just not reality.

563 wrenchwench  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 10:19:20am

re: #561 Buck

IMO, this is only about late term abortions.

Your opinion is incorrect. If you follow the link at the link, you find:

However, no action was ever taken, even after the agencies learned that Mrs. Mongar had died during routine abortions [sic] under Gosnell’s care.

Late term is the opposite of routine. There are other charges as well:

Dr. Gosnell, who has practiced in the West Philadelphia neighborhood for decades, is also the target of a federal grand jury investigation into illegally prescribing prescription drugs.

And:

Gosnell, a family practioner, was never certified as an OB/GYN. He is accused of re-using unsanitary instruments; performing procedures in filthy rooms. Some of the rooms had litter boxes and animals present at the time of the operations.

Investigators also said Gosnell allowed unlicensed employees to perform operations and administer anesthesia, including a 15-year-old high school student.

You may wish to revise your opinion, based on the facts. I understand this is not mandatory.

564 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Jan 19, 2011 10:20:48am

re: #538 Jadespring

Well I probably should go it's getting strange out there. I just got called a commie-obamafacist else board during a discussion with a (militant) vegan about ecology relating to farm practices. My sin was talking about how just because it's vegetables doesn't automatically mean it's 'sustainable' or ecology sound and that ecologically (science) has shown that especially in some regions having animals as part of the growing system (grass fed) is vital to long term health and production when you look at how the ecological systems (science again) work in reality.

How they jumped from that to commie obamafacist! is puzzling. People are down right weird at times.

That's silly enough to make me go hunt some squirrels :0

/ though I did go have the Weaver K4 I got for Christmas mounted and zeroed for my Marlin today. ;)


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