Open Thread, w/ Message to Haters

OpenJanuary 2011 • Views: 30,420

Wow, it’s a real hate party on Twitter, as LGF users banned for hate speech joined right wing hacks and outright stalkers to spew obsessive insults at me all night long. And I see that a long list of wingnut blogs are also spewing hatred and schoolyard taunts today.

When this kind of creepy right wing feeding frenzy happens, I know that I hit them where they live.

But even though they’re dying for me to read their insults and venom, I just add their names to Tweetdeck’s global filter and all the demented comments disappear from my Twitter timelines, forever.

So by all means, if you’re one of the people ranting at me on Twitter, or on your blog, please do continue. It has no effect on me, but at least it keeps you off the street.

Open Thread

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155 comments

Wozza Matter? Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:08:44am

evening all.

i am immersed in photoshop. ugh.

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:09:34am

Escape from insanity:

Youtube Video

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:10:33am

re: #2 000G

From = to?

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:13:27am

re: #3 Obdicut

From = to?

No, that would be more like this:

Youtube Video

Political Atheist Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:19:19am

Repost @ Charles

Honest question from one who largely ignores the blog wars-This is the part of blogging that I understand the least.
At what point does the line between being sensibly informed and giving them too much attention here get crossed?

Charles Johnson Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:25:10am

re: #5 Rightwingconspirator

I’m not in a “blog war” with anyone. These people aren’t smart enough to have a “war,” they’re just morons and/or unscrupulous ideologues. I don’t agonize over giving them too much attention — they’re obsessively reading and screen-shotting every word I post anyway.

Just wanted to let them know, again, that Daddy doesn’t even care enough about them to read their insults.

Wozza Matter? Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:25:45am

Stephen Moore of the Wall Street Journal is a doe brained, dead behind the eyes hack who will shill tea bagger talking points for fun and profit.

That is all.

Political Atheist Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:26:32am

re: #6 Charles

Okay good to know your thoughts on this. Thanks.

Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:27:05am

re: #6 Charles

I’m not in a “blog war” with anyone. These people aren’t smart enough to have a “war,” they’re just morons and/or unscrupulous ideologues. I don’t agonize over giving them too much attention — they’re obsessively reading and screen-shotting every word I post anyway.

Just wanted to let them know, again, that Daddy doesn’t even care enough about them to read their insults.

Well, that fact just makes them spew even more.

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:28:58am

OT, and in sadness:

The Shawna Forde trial: Anti-immigrant extremists murder nine-year-old girl

The co-founder of the Minutemen may be involved.

crooksandliars.com

Reginald Perrin Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:32:44am

re: #5 Rightwingconspirator

Repost @ Charles

Honest question from one who largely ignores the blog wars-This is the part of blogging that I understand the least.
At what point does the line between being sensibly informed and giving them too much attention here get crossed?

And they are feeling immense butt hurt because I have them boxed into a corner. Charles did all the heavy lifting and I waited for them to make a fatal mistake
The imaginary troll war was actually a well organized plot to smear CJ

I have a theory as to why Charles was picked. I wasn’t here so it is just conjecture.

elizajane Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:32:54am

re: #5 Rightwingconspirator

Repost @ Charles

Honest question from one who largely ignores the blog wars-This is the part of blogging that I understand the least.
At what point does the line between being sensibly informed and giving them too much attention here get crossed?

Agree, the whole thing just baffles me. What the heck is a “stalker blog”? Is it a specific genre? How do you know when the same person goes around (where?) using different names? There were comments on the last thread about all this that left me utterly confused.

But then, my own biggest online presence is on LibraryThing.com, which is not a site prone to flame wars, stalkers, etc. Mostly we disagree on which is Jane Austen’s finest novel, and whether or not one should shelve ones books alphabetically by author only, or within categories. Our only competition is who can read the most books from the “1001 Books to Read Before You Die” list.

My current, appropriate read: All Quiet on the Western Front.

Reginald Perrin Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:33:39am

re: #10 Obdicut

Bad weekend for the forces of ignorance, intolerance and racism

Political Atheist Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:34:56am

re: #12 elizajane

There is a blog dedicated to hating this one. Weird as hell. Banned poster purgatory I guess.

Political Atheist Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:37:50am

BBL
Eggs bennie on the table

Reginald Perrin Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:37:50am

re: #12 elizajane

It’s not that kind of stalking, they were providing a service for Eric Odom. Rick Martinez would get drunk and brag about their exploits. Odom has no way to deny my accusation, none whatsoever.

tnguitarist Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:38:07am

re: #14 Rightwingconspirator

There is a blog dedicated to hating this one. Weird as hell. Banned poster purgatory I guess.

I had to peek. Didn’t stay, because I don’t care enough to raise my blood pressure. But who knew there is a pro-DDT faction out there?

recusancy Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:39:16am

re: #17 tnguitarist

I had to peek. Didn’t stay, because I don’t care enough to raise my blood pressure. But who knew there is a pro-DDT faction out there?

There’s pro everything the left is or has ever been against.

elizajane Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:40:33am

re: #14 Rightwingconspirator

There is a blog dedicated to hating this one. Weird as hell. Banned poster purgatory I guess.

Wow. That is so pathetic.
They should be encouraged to spend their exorbitant free time reading a good book. I can recommend All Quiet on the Western Front.

Oh, and tnguitarist, definitely a pro-DDT faction if you are talking about the stuff that kills mosquitoes. My father is a vociferous pro-DDTer, but I love him anyway.

tnguitarist Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:41:10am

re: #18 recusancy

There’s pro everything the left is or has ever been against.

I guess it just amazes me that people don’t understand how the biological chain works.

Lidane Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:41:46am

re: #10 Obdicut

The co-founder of the Minutemen may be involved.

[Link: crooksandliars.com…]

I’m not surprised.

Groups like The Minutemen have always made me nervous, and the Forde case is a classic example of why. When I was a kid, I didn’t speak English until I was 4 or 5 years old. Before that, it was Spanish only. It’s not that much of a stretch for me to look at these people and think that if they’d been given the chance, they would have come after a kid like me.

recusancy Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:43:18am

re: #20 tnguitarist

I guess it just amazes me that people don’t understand how the biological chain works.

Well, and per elizajane’s comment, DDT is still very effective against mosquitoes and malaria. Weighing death by malaria or environmental damage people will take not dying from malaria.

Kronocide Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:43:44am

I spent some time on a StalkBlog last night. Damning evidence of CJ Mendatiousness confirmed!

I just can’t get how they never stop to think: if LGF is such a lost cause, lame, irrelevant, etc, why they obsess over it so much as opposed to forgetting about LGF and discussing stuff that matters.

But I suppose the Question is The Answer.

Charles Johnson Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:44:57am

re: #10 Obdicut

OT, and in sadness:

The Shawna Forde trial: Anti-immigrant extremists murder nine-year-old girl

The co-founder of the Minutemen may be involved.

[Link: crooksandliars.com…]

That would not be surprising — Gilchrist is a real nutjob. He hangs around with white supremacists on the Political Cesspool radio show. I don’t know why more people haven’t noted his ties to outright hate groups.

tnguitarist Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:46:05am

re: #22 recusancy

Well, and per elizajane’s comment, DDT is still very effective against mosquitoes and malaria. Weighing death by malaria or environmental damage people will take not dying from malaria.

Am I really supposed to believe that those people care about malaria deaths, mostly in Africa?

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:46:42am

Danger: America Is Losing Its Edge In Innovation

Anti-intellectualism is starting to reap us a bitter harvest.

Seriously, the nativists and anti-intellectuals couldn’t be doing a better job of ruining the future of this country if they were trying to.

alexknyc Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:47:33am

re: #22 recusancy

Well, and per elizajane’s comment, DDT is still very effective against mosquitoes and malaria. Weighing death by malaria or environmental damage people will take not dying from malaria.

There are other methods of preventing malaria, that don’t wreck the environment.

Since it’s mainly a problem in developing nations, I can see how some people would prefer to just spray DDT, rather than buy mosquito nets, show the populace how to use them and send anti-malarial medications. The environmental damage is invisible to them.

Don’t get me wrong, DDT is very effective against mosquitoes. I just don’t think it should be a first option.

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:47:40am

re: #22 recusancy

Well, and per elizajane’s comment, DDT is still very effective against mosquitoes and malaria. Weighing death by malaria or environmental damage people will take not dying from malaria.

DDT is very useful, and is great at malarial control. It is only good in that role, however, if it is NOT commonly used as a pesticide, otherwise the populations gain an immunity to it quickly. So, the general DDT bans on crop sprays actually increase its effectiveness as an anti-malaria tactic.

reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:49:45am

re: #10 Obdicut

OT, and in sadness:

The Shawna Forde trial: Anti-immigrant extremists murder nine-year-old girl

The co-founder of the Minutemen may be involved.

[Link: crooksandliars.com…]

IIRC, Gilchrist has been found to have ties to other very extreme factions; and always he seems to back himself out or away from them AFTER something bad has happened. I’m just going by vague memories, here, I have no links.

recusancy Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:49:56am

re: #25 tnguitarist

Am I really supposed to believe that those people care about malaria deaths, mostly in Africa?

No clue. I’m just saying why it still has it’s defenders.

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:50:49am

re: #24 Charles

The 911 tape is available on that link. It’s pretty horrifying.

I have no idea why I hadn’t heard about this case before. It’s insane. They executed a nine year old girl in front of her mother.

So many monsters around.

Jadespring Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:51:15am

re: #28 Obdicut

DDT is very useful, and is great at malarial control. It is only good in that role, however, if it is NOT commonly used as a pesticide, otherwise the populations gain an immunity to it quickly. So, the general DDT bans on crop sprays actually increase its effectiveness as an anti-malaria tactic.

Obdicut…stop using science. You’ll confuse people.

alexknyc Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:51:18am

re: #28 Obdicut

DDT is very useful, and is great at malarial control. It is only good in that role, however, if it is NOT commonly used as a pesticide, otherwise the populations gain an immunity to it quickly. So, the general DDT bans on crop sprays actually increase its effectiveness as an anti-malaria tactic.

That’s interesting. I hadn’t thought of that before but the immunity issue makes perfect sense.

Does limiting the use of DDT like that significantly reduce the environmental damage?

Reginald Perrin Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:51:26am

re: #17 tnguitarist

I had to peek. Didn’t stay, because I don’t care enough to raise my blood pressure. But who knew there is a pro-DDT faction out there?

Apparently there is an anti-civility campaign that is spreading astro-turf turds.

I wish I wasn’t making this up.

I think I found a passage that has been deleted from the teabagger’s Bible.

Blessed are the peace-makers: for they shall be called children of God.

What did Jesus know anyway, he was just a liberal Jew.

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:51:42am

re: #29 reine.de.tout

In this case, he may have tipped off Forde that the authorities were looking for her. If so, I hope he gets arrested and convicted for that.

FemNaziBitch Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:52:41am

re: #10 Obdicut

OT, and in sadness:

The Shawna Forde trial: Anti-immigrant extremists murder nine-year-old girl

The co-founder of the Minutemen may be involved.

[Link: crooksandliars.com…]

It’s getting seriously scary down at the border. . .

Charles Johnson Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:53:01am

re: #31 Obdicut

The 911 tape is available on that link. It’s pretty horrifying.

I have no idea why I hadn’t heard about this case before. It’s insane. They executed a nine year old girl in front of her mother.

So many monsters around.

There have been three LGF posts about this horrible case:

littlegreenfootballs.com

alexknyc Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:53:49am

re: #35 Obdicut

In this case, he may have tipped off Forde that the authorities were looking for her. If so, I hope he gets arrested and convicted for that.

If it’s true, I hope they can nail him as an accessory after the fact and throw away the key.

reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:54:38am

re: #14 Rightwingconspirator

There is a blog dedicated to hating this one. Weird as hell. Banned poster purgatory I guess.

Some of the folks there are folks who I had contact with for cookbook Volume 1, and honestly, had civil exchanges with here at LGF. DF had the same experience with many of them, I’m sure.

Charles has mentioned that the venom he gets from the right wing is far worse than anything he got from the left.

The first time he said that, I sort of raised an eyebrow - Hmmm??

But it’s true.

There are lots of folks here I don’t always agree with, get aggravated with at times - but I cannot imagine that any of those folks would stoop to doing what the stalker blog folks are doing to Charles, or to some others here, myself and DF included.

Kronocide Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:56:34am

Shawna Forde What Right Wing Violence deflections:

‘She was jacked up on crank.’
‘She’s just nuts.’

Crimsonfisted Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:56:35am

re: #39 reine.de.tout

Upding a million. I don’t get it either.

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:57:01am

re: #33 alexknyc

That’s interesting. I hadn’t thought of that before but the immunity issue makes perfect sense.

Does limiting the use of DDT like that significantly reduce the environmental damage?

Yes, absolutely. It’s concentration of DDT in the environment that matters. The bad thing about DDT is it tends to cycle through the system— so fish eat it, which are then eaten by birds, who die and are eaten by carrion birds, who’s excrement is eaten by fish, etc. So repeated use in environment will build up DDT presence over time.

Better alternatives are being developed, but I strongly feel that DDT spraying— with prior testing to determine that the mosquito population is not heavily resistant— is an important tool in the anti-malaria arsenal.

Using it for agriculture is simply indefensible, since it increases the mosquito’s resistance.

FemNaziBitch Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:57:12am

re: #27 alexknyc

There are other methods of preventing malaria, that don’t wreck the environment.

Since it’s mainly a problem in developing nations, I can see how some people would prefer to just spray DDT, rather than buy mosquito nets, show the populace how to use them and send anti-malarial medications. The environmental damage is invisible to them.

Don’t get me wrong, DDT is very effective against mosquitoes. I just don’t think it should be a first option.

I thought that there were ways to use DDT that weren’t as harmful to the environment, but still saved lives, i.e. spraying the mosquito nets with it.

And yes, I think a lot of the people that see themselves as pro-DDT are also Pro-Life in every sense —Afrika or not.

I’d like to see people be allowed to do what makes sense and the hysteria on either side ignored.

ClaudeMonet Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:57:50am

re: #26 Obdicut

Danger: America Is Losing Its Edge In Innovation

Anti-intellectualism is starting to reap us a bitter harvest.

Seriously, the nativists and anti-intellectuals couldn’t be doing a better job of ruining the future of this country if they were trying to.

IMO this is an example of the Law of Unintended Consequences. The intellectuals, by spending years trying to mobilize the masses by talking down to them and attacking the institutions in which the masses believed, have succeeded in turning the masses away from the very education and intellectualism that created and motivated the educated.

I am NOT saying that nativism and anti-intellecutalism are in any way correct or justified. I am saying that years of telling people how they should live, what they should believe, etc., without consideration for the core beliefs of those being lectured to, have boomeranged on the intellectuals.

Varek Raith Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:58:53am

re: #44 ClaudeMonet

IMO this is an example of the Law of Unintended Consequences. The intellectuals, by spending years trying to mobilize the masses by talking down to them and attacking the institutions in which the masses believed, have succeeded in turning the masses away from the very education and intellectualism that created and motivated the educated.

I am NOT saying that nativism and anti-intellecutalism are in any way correct or justified. I am saying that years of telling people how they should live, what they should believe, etc., without consideration for the core beliefs of those being lectured to, have boomeranged on the intellectuals.

Explain further, please.

ClaudeMonet Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:59:19am

re: #34 Reginald Perrin

Apparently there is an anti-civility campaign that is spreading astro-turf turds.

I wish I wasn’t making this up.

I think I found a passage that has been deleted from the teabagger’s Bible.

Blessed are the peace-makers: for they shall be called children of God.

What did Jesus know anyway, he was just a liberal Jew.

And an unemployed, unmarried one who hung around with other unemployed, unmarried guys. Hmmmm.

reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:59:27am

re: #31 Obdicut

The 911 tape is available on that link. It’s pretty horrifying.

I have no idea why I hadn’t heard about this case before. It’s insane. They executed a nine year old girl in front of her mother.

So many monsters around.

OMG, that tape is awful, awful - I can’t imagine being that 911 operator. Awful.

tnguitarist Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:59:40am

re: #39 reine.de.tout

I always find it funny that liberals are peace-loving-hippie-tree-hugging-girlymen-that-don’t-own-guns one minute, then facist-maoist-Chicago-union-thugs the next.

alexknyc Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:00:10am

re: #40 BigPapa

Shawna Forde What Right Wing Violence deflections:

‘She was jacked up on crank.’
‘She’s just nuts.’

Did the drugs get into her body without her knowledge? She did the drugs, she’s responsible for her actions on them.

She is definitely nuts. You can’t execute a nine-year-old and not be nuts. That does not, however, reach the threshold of a psych defense.

I’m generally conflicted about the death penalty but if any case is deserving, it’s this one.

Varek Raith Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:00:13am

re: #48 tnguitarist

I always find it funny that liberals are peace-loving-hippie-tree-hugging-girlymen-that-don ‘t-own-guns one minute, then facist-maoist-Chicago-union-thugs the next.

It’s the pot.
/

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:00:21am

re: #37 Charles

There have been three LGF posts about this horrible case:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

Before my time, but good on you for reporting on it. I haven’t seen this covered heavily elsewhere. I didn’t even hear it brought up during the debate over the Arizona law.

Jadespring Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:01:19am

re: #48 tnguitarist

I always find it funny that liberals are peace-loving-hippie-tree-hugging-girlymen-that-don ‘t-own-guns one minute, then facist-maoist-Chicago-union-thugs the next.

Liberals are all Geminis

Kronocide Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:01:33am

re: #44 ClaudeMonet

IMO this is an example of the Law of Unintended Consequences. The intellectuals, by spending years trying to mobilize the masses by talking down to them and attacking the institutions in which the masses believed, have succeeded in turning the masses away from the very education and intellectualism that created and motivated the educated.

This sounds like an elaboration on the Al Gore Criticism: Al Gore has defeated the cause to fight AGW because of the way he’s promoted the cause to fight AGW.

Except he’s not an intellectual.

tnguitarist Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:02:12am

re: #52 Jadespring

Liberals are all Geminis

I’m all Leo.

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:02:29am

re: #44 ClaudeMonet

IMO this is an example of the Law of Unintended Consequences. The intellectuals, by spending years trying to mobilize the masses by talking down to them and attacking the institutions in which the masses believed

Huh? Like who? What institutions? Seriously confused, here.

Why on earth don’t you assign blame to the people who are actively, cynically using anti-intellectualism as a political strategy, and putting out propaganda to that effect?

I am saying that years of telling people how they should live, what they should believe, etc., without consideration for the core beliefs of those being lectured to, have boomeranged on the intellectuals.

I have no idea what you’re talking about. How is that a behavior of intellectuals, any more or less than, say, preachers?

FemNaziBitch Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:02:53am

Scorpio here, who shuns labels.

reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:02:55am

re: #48 tnguitarist

I always find it funny that liberals are peace-loving-hippie-tree-hugging-girlymen-that-don ‘t-own-guns one minute, then facist-maoist-Chicago-union-thugs the next.

You’re talking in the minds of the banned?
yes, weird isn’t it.

alexknyc Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:02:57am

re: #42 Obdicut

Yes, absolutely. It’s concentration of DDT in the environment that matters. The bad thing about DDT is it tends to cycle through the system— so fish eat it, which are then eaten by birds, who die and are eaten by carrion birds, who’s excrement is eaten by fish, etc. So repeated use in environment will build up DDT presence over time.

Better alternatives are being developed, but I strongly feel that DDT spraying— with prior testing to determine that the mosquito population is not heavily resistant— is an important tool in the anti-malaria arsenal.

Using it for agriculture is simply indefensible, since it increases the mosquito’s resistance.

This is interesting stuff that I didn’t know before. Thanks.

Apparently, I’m going to have to rethink the whole DDT vs malaria issue.

New facts are so inconvenient to previously-held positions.
/

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:03:06am

re: #31 Obdicut

The 911 tape is available on that link. It’s pretty horrifying.

I have no idea why I hadn’t heard about this case before. It’s insane. They executed a nine year old girl in front of her mother.

So many monsters around.

Obviously only deranged nuts could have done it. So no ideology could be possibly involved.

Varek Raith Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:03:44am

re: #56 ggt

Scorpio here, who shuns labels.

I used to be a Scorpio.
Stupid planets and stars and shit had to go and move…
Lol

FemNaziBitch Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:04:25am

re: #60 Varek Raith

I used to be a Scorpio.
Stupid planets and stars and shit had to go and move…
Lol

ah, that explains alot!

/:)

tnguitarist Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:05:00am

re: #56 ggt

Scorpio here, who shuns labels.

I’ve read that Scorpios shun labels…….;)

Kronocide Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:05:54am

I’m having a hard time thinking of any popular intellectuals guilty of talking down to us. There’s plenty of others doing that but they are on radio and TV, and distinctly not intellectuals.

Jadespring Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:06:12am

re: #58 alexknyc

This is interesting stuff that I didn’t know before. Thanks.

Apparently, I’m going to have to rethink the whole DDT vs malaria issue.

New facts are so inconvenient to previously-held positions.
/

Same sort of patterns of biological adaptation can and have happened with mass use of other pesticides, herbicides and medicines like antibiotics.

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:07:08am

re: #58 alexknyc

It would still be much better, obviously to develop an anti-mosquito agent that didn’t have the nasty side-effects of DDT. But malaria is such a killer. Not just directly, but by making so many too sick to work; people starve in the wake of malaria since they’re too tired to harvest, tend their herds, etc.

Vietnam has had huge success against malaria while not using DDT. Instead, they use pyrethroids, and they ‘poison’ larvae breeding grounds by putting oil on water, dredging and draining standing water, and aggressively treating malarial cases. That takes a relatively well-performing economy, though, which most of Africa doesn’t have.

alexknyc Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:07:36am

re: #44 ClaudeMonet

IMO this is an example of the Law of Unintended Consequences. The intellectuals, by spending years trying to mobilize the masses by talking down to them and attacking the institutions in which the masses believed, have succeeded in turning the masses away from the very education and intellectualism that created and motivated the educated.

I am NOT saying that nativism and anti-intellecutalism are in any way correct or justified. I am saying that years of telling people how they should live, what they should believe, etc., without consideration for the core beliefs of those being lectured to, have boomeranged on the intellectuals.

So it’s the intellectuals’ fault that anti-intellectualism is so politically popular?

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:08:35am

re: #48 tnguitarist

I always find it funny that liberals are peace-loving-hippie-tree-hugging-girlymen-that-don ‘t-own-guns one minute, then facist-maoist-Chicago-union-thugs the next.

NOW I get what that movie, Gremlins, was about.

ClaudeMonet Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:09:15am

re: #45 Varek Raith

Explain further, please.

Intellectuals spend years lecturing people from their ivory tower, telling them how stupid they are, what they should believe, how they should live, all in accordance with their sheltered, academic, theoretical, comfy existence. Why? Because it’s a hell of a lot easier than getting their hands dirty and finding out how people really live, believe, etc., how the various threads of their lives intertwine.

Then they wonder why those they lecture get pissed off at them.

Perhaps it’s my background, but I have always preferred being persuaded by someone who knows something of the real situation over being told by someone who’s read a lot of books and articles and is well-versed in theory. (Ludicrous example—When I was in college, a popular Theology course, “Marriage and the Family”, was taught by a Jesuit. My view was, “WTF would he know about it?”)

That doesn’t excuse the nativists and anti-intellectuals from being assholes, but it does explain some of their anger, not that they can even articulate it.

FemNaziBitch Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:09:27am

re: #65 Obdicut

It would still be much better, obviously to develop an anti-mosquito agent that didn’t have the nasty side-effects of DDT. But malaria is such a killer. Not just directly, but by making so many too sick to work; people starve in the wake of malaria since they’re too tired to harvest, tend their herds, etc.

Vietnam has had huge success against malaria while not using DDT. Instead, they use pyrethroids, and they ‘poison’ larvae breeding grounds by putting oil on water, dredging and draining standing water, and aggressively treating malarial cases. That takes a relatively well-performing economy, though, which most of Africa doesn’t have.

I have a hard time looking at this from any perspective than as a mother. If I was a mother living in Afrika, I would do whatever it took to prevent my infant/child from getting malaria. I would be really pissed that any government would ban the use of an effective agent against DDT WITHOUT providing an adequate alternative.

We need to step-up the science on this to replace DDT.

tnguitarist Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:09:35am

re: #66 alexknyc

So it’s the intellectuals’ fault that anti-intellectualism is so politically popular?

You nailed it. I get tired of having to lower our standards to the lowest common denominator in every situation.

tnguitarist Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:10:28am

re: #67 Sergey Romanov

NOW I get what that movie, Gremlins, was about.

Who knew Gremlins was an allegory?

FemNaziBitch Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:11:06am

re: #69 ggt

I have a hard time looking at this from any perspective than as a mother. If I was a mother living in Afrika, I would do whatever it took to prevent my infant/child from getting malaria. I would be really pissed that any government would ban the use of an effective agent against ~~DDT~~ malaria WITHOUT providing an adequate alternative.

We need to step-up the science on this to replace DDT.

I knew that didn’t look right, but hit the post button anyway.

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:11:49am

re: #68 ClaudeMonet

I’m sorry, but your view of academics is like a caricature. Both my parents are academics. They’re not at all divorced from the real world, in the least. Furthermore, when it comes to science and engineer, academics and intellectuals ARE the ones who have gotten their hands dirty, the ones who have done the real work.

So your explanation makes no sense. Academics don’t lose the need to pay the rent. Intellectuals are often far more experienced in real, hands-on work in their fields than others.

FemNaziBitch Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:12:14am

re: #70 tnguitarist

You nailed it. I get tired of having to lower our standards to the lowest common denominator in every situation.

In a way, that’s the point. Everyone gets a vote. And sometimes, the lowest common denominator has the highest common sense.

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:12:17am

re: #71 tnguitarist

Who knew Gremlins was an allegory?

Makes a wingnut sense. Don’t splash a DFH with water, it will get worse /

ClaudeMonet Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:12:57am

re: #48 tnguitarist

I always find it funny that liberals are peace-loving-hippie-tree-hugging-girlymen-that-don ‘t-own-guns one minute, then facist-maoist-Chicago-union-thugs the next.

Never ask for consistency from either side, the Right in particular. A milder but left example was how people could think President Bush was a chimp/idiot/moron and some evil Machiavellian schemer who pulled off complicated anti-“The People” schemes at the same time.

As I keep telling people, “Choose one consistent lie. Then stick with it.”

Varek Raith Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:13:04am

re: #74 ggt

In a way, that’s the point. Everyone gets a vote. And sometimes, the lowest common denominator has the highest common sense.

Except for AGW.
And evolution.
And…
Come on!

tnguitarist Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:13:30am

re: #68 ClaudeMonet

Intellectuals spend years lecturing people from their ivory tower, telling them how stupid they are, what they should believe, how they should live, all in accordance with their sheltered, academic, theoretical, comfy existence.

I don’t believe that. If someone is telling me what to do and I don’t agree, I don’t listen.

God forbid educated people try to educate people!

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:14:26am

re: #76 ClaudeMonet

some evil Machiavellian schemer who pulled off complicated anti-“The People” schemes at the same time.

That would be Dick ;)

recusancy Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:15:10am

re: #74 ggt

In a way, that’s the point. Everyone gets a vote. And sometimes, the lowest common denominator has the highest common sense.

Do you have a real world example of this?

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:16:00am

re: #74 ggt

In a way, that’s the point. Everyone gets a vote. And sometimes, the lowest common denominator has the highest common sense.

It happens… like when a peasant jury votes for Beilis’ innocence. Just don’t count on it.

Varek Raith Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:16:12am

Sometimes you have to tell people they are just plain wrong on a subject.
If they don’t listen to scientific fact or ignore it, well, they’re foolish.
No ifs, ands or buts about it.

Kronocide Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:16:18am

re: #68 ClaudeMonet

Intellectuals spend years lecturing people from their ivory tower, telling them how stupid they are, what they should believe, how they should live, all in accordance with their sheltered, academic, theoretical, comfy existence. Why? Because it’s a hell of a lot easier than getting their hands dirty and finding out how people really live, believe, etc., how the various threads of their lives intertwine.

Then they wonder why those they lecture get pissed off at them.

You’re painting with a broad brush. I don’t know of any popular intellectuals that fit that mold. Many intellectuals get a real kick out of bringing more complex ideas to the masses and watching light bulbs go off and minds blown, as opposed to just looking smart.

The anti-intellectual populists are far more guilty of promoting anti-intellectualism than the worst of the intelligent snobs. If accountability is brought forth then proportionality should matter.

reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:16:42am

re: #68 ClaudeMonet

Intellectuals spend years lecturing people from their ivory tower, telling them how stupid they are, what they should believe, how they should live, all in accordance with their sheltered, academic, theoretical, comfy existence. Why? Because it’s a hell of a lot easier than getting their hands dirty and finding out how people really live, believe, etc., how the various threads of their lives intertwine.

Then they wonder why those they lecture get pissed off at them.

Perhaps it’s my background, but I have always preferred being persuaded by someone who knows something of the real situation over being told by someone who’s read a lot of books and articles and is well-versed in theory. (Ludicrous example—When I was in college, a popular Theology course, “Marriage and the Family”, was taught by a Jesuit. My view was, “WTF would he know about it?”)

That doesn’t excuse the nativists and anti-intellectuals from being assholes, but it does explain some of their anger, not that they can even articulate it.

What you say is true, partly.

And I say partly because the rest of us should be able to recognize and roll our eyes at the condescending lecture parts, while still being able to recognize and appreciate the intelligence of thought where it exists. You know? I mean it doesn’t have to be a matter of “if I can’t take the whole package, I’ll reject all of it” thing. You take the smart parts, and discard the condescension.

FemNaziBitch Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:17:26am

re: #80 recusancy

Do you have a real world example of this?

Yeah. Some most personal to share.

One that comes to mind is a friend of mine and her husband are so intellectual they put their child last in their priorities and got a screwed-up mess as a result.

Again, mostly personal stuff.

recusancy Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:19:12am

re: #85 ggt

Yeah. Some most personal to share.

One that comes to mind is a friend of mine and her husband are so intellectual they put their child last in their priorities and got a screwed-up mess as a result.

Again, mostly personal stuff.

What does that have to do with lecturing from ivory towers? That’s a failure of over-ambition and prioritization.

tnguitarist Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:19:29am

re: #84 reine.de.tout

I think the condescension is perceived.

Youtube Video

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:19:37am

re: #85 ggt

I’m sorry, but saying you’re so intellectual that you put your child last doesn’t really make any sense. There’s no way that being highly intellectual means that you don’t have time for your kids.

Lots of people suck at parents, of every intellectual level.

ClaudeMonet Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:20:27am

re: #78 tnguitarist

I don’t believe that. If someone is telling me what to do and I don’t agree, I don’t listen.

God forbid educated people try to educate people!

I assume that’s because you’re an educated person who is used to thinking independently. Or at the very least, an ornery, independent type.

Education often lies in helping the uneducated work it out in their own minds. Most but not all academics I’ve met would rather be TELL people, forgetting that people’s lives are not like the classroom, where there are often fixed, known correct answers.

Obdicut, obviously your parents are a welcome exception. In my perfect world, every person with a college education would be required to spend at least one year out of each ten in the field, working with real people.

recusancy Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:20:50am

re: #87 tnguitarist

I think the condescension is perceived.

[Video]

My favorite Hick!

FemNaziBitch Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:21:31am

re: #86 recusancy

What does that have to do with lecturing from ivory towers? That’s a failure of over-ambition and prioritization.

One memory just came to mind.

Remember the guy, during Katrina, who broke into the bus depot, stole the keys and drove a bus load of people away from NOLA?

He was just a regular guy who did what made sense, instead of waiting for “services” to provide for him.

Perhaps it doesn’t directly relate to the topic.

ClaudeMonet Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:21:51am

re: #83 BigPapa

The anti-intellectual populists are far more guilty of promoting anti-intellectualism than the worst of the intelligent snobs. If accountability is brought forth then proportionality should matter.

On this point, I agree completely.

Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:22:31am

No surprise:Former CBO Director Holtz-Eakin Calls Boehner Health Plan “Not A Serious Effort”

FemNaziBitch Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:22:31am

re: #88 Obdicut

I’m sorry, but saying you’re so intellectual that you put your child last doesn’t really make any sense. There’s no way that being highly intellectual means that you don’t have time for your kids.

Lots of people suck at parents, of every intellectual level.

Too personal to explain, suffice it to say, their parenting style is directly related to their intellectualism.

recusancy Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:22:37am

re: #91 ggt

One memory just came to mind.

Remember the guy, during Katrina, who broke into the bus depot, stole the keys and drove a bus load of people away from NOLA?

He was just a regular guy who did what made sense, instead of waiting for “services” to provide for him.

Perhaps it doesn’t directly relate to the topic.

You’re right. It doesn’t.

reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:22:40am

re: #87 tnguitarist

I think the condescension is perceived.

[Video]

In some cases, yes; in some no.
Either way - the rest of us should be secure enough about ourselves to ignore it, real or perceived.

I know exactly what I’m smart about.
And I know exactly what I don’t know (or have talent for), and I’m not a bit embarrassed by it, it is what it is. And so I can pay attention and enjoy the company of the many many folks who are much smarter than I am.

Varek Raith Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:22:44am

*Scoffs from his Ivory Tower of Doom*

tnguitarist Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:22:50am

re: #91 ggt

One memory just came to mind.

Remember the guy, during Katrina, who broke into the bus depot, stole the keys and drove a bus load of people away from NOLA?

He was just a regular guy who did what made sense, instead of waiting for “services” to provide for him.

Perhaps it doesn’t directly relate to the topic.

???? Maybe because he was smart?

FemNaziBitch Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:24:01am

re: #98 tnguitarist

??? Maybe because he was smart?

Yeah, I having a hard time explaining my concept of common-sense in the common man.

Best leave it for another time.

100

Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:24:49am

re: #44 ClaudeMonet

IMO this is an example of the Law of Unintended Consequences. The intellectuals, by spending years trying to mobilize the masses by talking down to them and attacking the institutions in which the masses believed, have succeeded in turning the masses away from the very education and intellectualism that created and motivated the educated.

I am NOT saying that nativism and anti-intellecutalism are in any way correct or justified. I am saying that years of telling people how they should live, what they should believe, etc., without consideration for the core beliefs of those being lectured to, have boomeranged on the intellectuals.

Agreed. Too many intellectuals mock religion and the traditional values in which many people put great stock. If you attack a man’s beliefs, don’t be surprised when he refuses to support you or the institutions that produced you.

101

tnguitarist Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:25:04am

re: #96 reine.de.tout

In some cases, yes; in some no.
Either way - the rest of us should be secure enough about ourselves to ignore it, real or perceived.

I know exactly what I’m smart about.
And I know exactly what I don’t know (or have talent for), and I’m not a bit embarrassed by it, it is what it is. And so I can pay attention and enjoy the company of the many many folks who are much smarter than I am.

You get to the point. It’s not the lack of education or intelligence, but the lack of a willingness to learn that bothers me. It’s mostly a pride issue, I would guess.

102

Jadespring Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:25:25am

re: #68 ClaudeMonet

Intellectuals spend years lecturing people from their ivory tower, telling them how stupid they are, what they should believe, how they should live, all in accordance with their sheltered, academic, theoretical, comfy existence. Why? Because it’s a hell of a lot easier than getting their hands dirty and finding out how people really live, believe, etc., how the various threads of their lives intertwine.

Then they wonder why those they lecture get pissed off at them.

Perhaps it’s my background, but I have always preferred being persuaded by someone who knows something of the real situation over being told by someone who’s read a lot of books and articles and is well-versed in theory. (Ludicrous example—When I was in college, a popular Theology course, “Marriage and the Family”, was taught by a Jesuit. My view was, “WTF would he know about it?”)

That doesn’t excuse the nativists and anti-intellectuals from being assholes, but it does explain some of their anger, not that they can even articulate it.

I can see this as possibly part of it but doesn’t explain all of it. It’s too simplistic. You also have to consider that politically ‘anti-intellectualism’ has been used over and over as part of the political parlay for years. The whole ‘we don’t have to listen to the book-learned’ has and still a political point of rhetoric ironically use by the ‘elites’ of whatever side is in question. So a lot of what you’re saying in terms of people not wanting to listen to book learned has been culturaly created on purpose in order to basically win politically.

I also think that it has a lot to with the school and education system that regardless of trying the higher education parts of it are still out of reach for a lot of people. When part of the cultural meme or myth is that everyone can be unlimitedly successful if they only work hard and get an education and that myth proves to be not as rosy or people find they can’t access the parts of the tool box that they need to do it, it’s human nature to start discrediting the actual ‘myth’ and mocking it.

Plus the US has a massive celebrity culture and has for a long time. Where rich and famous rule as cultural icons. Many have got where they are not because of old stuffy and stupid education or some sort of intellectual smarts. I don’t doubt that this is somewhere in the mix as well.

103

FemNaziBitch Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:25:37am

re: #89 ClaudeMonet

I assume that’s because you’re an educated person who is used to thinking independently. Or at the very least, an ornery, independent type.

Education often lies in helping the uneducated work it out in their own minds. Most but not all academics I’ve met would rather be TELL people, forgetting that people’s lives are not like the classroom, where there are often fixed, known correct answers.

Obdicut, obviously your parents are a welcome exception. In my perfect world, every person with a college education would be required to spend at least one year out of each ten in the field, working with real people.

Academics are not often trained teachers. They don’t actually know how to teach—they rely on a class of students who are able and motivated to learn.

104

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:25:45am

re: #89 ClaudeMonet

Obdicut, obviously your parents are a welcome exception. In my perfect world, every person with a college education would be required to spend at least one year out of each ten in the field, working with real people.

I assume you mean most people involved in college education, rather than with a college education.

I still have no fucking clue what you’re going on about.

First of all: Most scientific academics do work ‘in the field’. So in reference to our losing edge in science and engineering, your comment makes no sense.

Second of all: Teaching classes is extremely hard. It’s very, very hard work. The students are ‘real people’ Remember that most professors aren’t working at Harvard and Yale. Most are working at state schools, community colleges, and the like, dealing with a continually under-educated group of incoming students.

I have no idea why you think that teaching is somehow not part of the real world. It’s something I hear a lot, and it never ceases to make me angry.

How about everyone tries to go teach a class for a year, instead of those nasty intellectuals being forced to work ‘in the field’?

105

Talking Point Detective Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:27:26am

re: #94 ggt

Too personal to explain, suffice it to say, their parenting style is directly related to their intellectualism.

And for some intellectuals, their parenting style is enhanced by their intellectualism. And for some non-intellectuals, their lack of intellectual background detracts from their ability to function as parents.

The logical extension of your argument is that “intellectualism,” - a very vague term, actually - necessarily diminishes one’s parenting skills, or that people who become intellectuals are inherently poor parents. Neither argument holds up unless you provide some data to back them up.

106

Sionainn Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:27:42am

re: #12 elizajane

Our only competition is who can read the most books from the “1001 Books to Read Before You Die” list.

I just looked it up and it’s quite depressing…after all the many thousands of books I’ve read in my lifetime, I’ve discovered that my taste sucks.

107

Lidane Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:27:53am

re: #82 Varek Raith

Sometimes you have to tell people they are just plain wrong on a subject.
If they don’t listen to scientific fact or ignore it, well, they’re foolish.
No ifs, ands or buts about it.

Yeah, this. Thing is, people hate being told they’re wrong, so they immediately paint all intellectuals and academics as sneering, condescending pricks as a result.

If you think that the Earth is just a few thousand years old, you’re wrong. If you think that life on this planet didn’t evolve, you’re wrong. If you think that slavery wasn’t a factor in the Civil War, you’re wrong. If you rewrite history, saying that the Pilgrims came here to escape socialism, you’re wrong. If you think the Nazis were left wing, you’re wrong.

Sometimes, you just have to call people out and correct their mistakes. It’s that simple.

108

Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:27:54am

re: #91 ggt

One memory just came to mind.

Remember the guy, during Katrina, who broke into the bus depot, stole the keys and drove a bus load of people away from NOLA?

He was just a regular guy who did what made sense, instead of waiting for “services” to provide for him.

Perhaps it doesn’t directly relate to the topic.

Actually, he was only 17 when he did that. As I recall, he found the bus sitting on the street, he didn’t break in (it was a school bus). He broke the law in so doing, but was not charged.

109

Varek Raith Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:28:00am

re: #100 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. Too many intellectuals mock religion and the traditional values in which many people put great stock. If you attack a man’s beliefs, don’t be surprised when he refuses to support you or the institutions that produced you.

So, if someone who mocked a religion can prove to them that AGW or evolution is real, they’d ignore it?
That’s just stupid.
Sorry.

110

elizajane Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:28:45am

re: #94 ggt

Too personal to explain, suffice it to say, their parenting style is directly related to their intellectualism.

Yeah, but they’re just a couple of idiots, not the elected representatives of intellectualism. Anybody can be a lousy parent and justify it.

I’m an intellectual with a PhD. My brother is basically an anti-intellectual who doesn’t believe in college. The reason we get along really, really well is that both of us put our kids first. It has nothing whatsoever to do with intellectualism. In an entire adult life spent in academia on two coasts and two continents, I have seen every model of parenting imaginable; also every model of arrogance and also of genuine hands-on community involvement.

Try to avoid the stereotypes; they are not a useful way of arguing.

111

FemNaziBitch Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:28:52am

re: #100 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. Too many intellectuals mock religion and the traditional values in which many people put great stock. If you attack a man’s beliefs, don’t be surprised when he refuses to support you or the institutions that produced you.

Most large organized religions value education highly. In the RC community, in which I was raised, it wasn’t an option. You went to school, and you learned (or at least brought home a decent report card).

I didn’t like the fear factor involved, but it worked.

Perhaps by attacking religion, there is a factor the intellectuals didn’t figure —the tie between religion and education?

112

Kronocide Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:28:56am

re: #100 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. Too many intellectuals mock religion and the traditional values in which many people put great stock. If you attack a man’s beliefs, don’t be surprised when he refuses to support you or the institutions that produced you.

I just don’t this factor as significant. Any well known condescending intellectuals of any significant impact that would fit this mold?

It just seems like a false narrative built upon the ‘liberal professor’ stereotype being of significant scale.

113

Talking Point Detective Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:29:32am

re: #103 ggt

Academics are not often trained teachers. They don’t actually know how to teach—they rely on a class of students who are able and motivated to learn.

As an academic with a background in teaching, I whole-heartedly agree. Although lip service is paid in academe to teaching, the reality is that in most colleges and universities teaching ability is mostly irrelevant to career progression.

114

ClaudeMonet Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:29:48am

re: #53 BigPapa

This sounds like an elaboration on the Al Gore Criticism: Al Gore has defeated the cause to fight AGW because of the way he’s promoted the cause to fight AGW.

Except he’s not an intellectual.

No, but he promotes himself as an expert, and he certainly talks down—while making a boatload of money in the process. And I don’t think he has defeated the cause. He just hasn’t helped his own cause at times.

My view—Don’t give me a fish. Don’t tell me how to fish. Show me how to fish, and I can take it from there and be grateful instead of resentful.

115

alexknyc Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:30:11am

re: #102 Jadespring

Anti-intellectualism goes way back.

Alexis de Tocqueville recognized an anti-intellectual strain in American thought back in the early 19th century.

116

ClaudeMonet Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:31:12am

re: #97 Varek Raith

*Scoffs from his Ivory Tower of Doom*

No, you don’t. However, it’s a humorous image.

117

Varek Raith Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:32:10am

re: #116 ClaudeMonet

No, you don’t. However, it’s a humorous image.

You question the Doominess of my Tower?!?!
:)

118

reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:32:17am

re: #104 Obdicut

I assume you mean most people involved in college education, rather than with a college education.

I still have no fucking clue what you’re going on about.

First of all: Most scientific academics do work ‘in the field’. So in reference to our losing edge in science and engineering, your comment makes no sense.

Second of all: Teaching classes is extremely hard. It’s very, very hard work. The students are ‘real people’ Remember that most professors aren’t working at Harvard and Yale. Most are working at state schools, community colleges, and the like, dealing with a continually under-educated group of incoming students.

I have no idea why you think that teaching is somehow not part of the real world. It’s something I hear a lot, and it never ceases to make me angry.

How about everyone tries to go teach a class for a year, instead of those nasty intellectuals being forced to work ‘in the field’?

Teaching is very very hard, exhausting work.

But Obdi - please don’t make an assumption that all incoming students attending a state school are under-educated.

119

Varek Raith Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:32:51am

re: #100 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. Too many intellectuals mock religion and the traditional values in which many people put great stock. If you attack a man’s beliefs, don’t be surprised when he refuses to support you or the institutions that produced you.

Oi, downding reversed.
I’m getting ticked for no reason.
Sorry DF.

120

tnguitarist Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:34:39am

Later…….time to prepare for the foosball games.

121

ClaudeMonet Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:36:10am

re: #117 Varek Raith

You question the Doominess of my Tower?!?!
:)

LOL for “Doominess”. I’ll try to remember that for future use. :)

122

alexknyc Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:36:17am

re: #118 reine.de.tout

Teaching is very very hard, exhausting work.

Amen to that. I’ve been a social studies teacher for 15 years.

But Obdi - please don’t make an assumption that all incoming students attending a state school are under-educated.

I think it’s reached the point where more than 50% of incoming freshman have to take at least one remedial class. But that’s not necessarily a state-school only number.

123

Jadespring Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:36:39am

re: #111 ggt

Most large organized religions value education highly. In the RC community, in which I was raised, it wasn’t an option. You went to school, and you learned (or at least brought home a decent report card).

I didn’t like the fear factor involved, but it worked.

Perhaps by attacking religion, there is a factor the intellectuals didn’t figure —the tie between religion and education?

Why are you determined to use ‘the intellectuals’ this way as if it’s some sort of intellectual groupthink that causes all of them to attack religion. It’s broad brush and total bunk. Yes some intellectuals attack religion and there are many that don’t. Theologians come to mind as an obvious example.

I don’t get this intellectuals (as a whole) are anti-religious stereotype either. I think it’s more of an example of political prop that’s been so ingrained that it’s taken on some sort of ‘truth’. It’s in and off it self and example of anti-intellectulism memes in action.

124

Kronocide Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:36:41am

re: #114 ClaudeMonet

No, but he promotes himself as an expert, and he certainly talks down—while making a boatload of money in the process. And I don’t think he has defeated the cause. He just hasn’t helped his own cause at times.

Making a boatload of money should be virtue, at least I thought it was to capitalists. I don’t see anything wrong with it in that sense. To make it a negative there has to be an implication that it’s done by nefarious means.

I fully hope to make a boatload of $ ‘doing something’ about AGW: installing energy monitoring systems and technologies. There is nothing wrong with making money fighting AGW, unless you’re Al Gore.

I rejected AGW for an extended period of time because of my distaste for Al Gore’s style and method, but is he to blame for my rejection of AGW, or me?

125

Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:37:05am

re: #109 Varek Raith

So, if someone who mocked a religion can prove to them that AGW or evolution is real, they’d ignore it?
That’s just stupid.
Sorry.

No Varek, it’s not. It’s human nature. Religion is something close to them that they organize their lives around, and that has been a lodestone for their families going back many years. When something like that gets attacked, most people will go after the attacker. Its not about truth, its that the attacker is seen as a threat. Humans are a predator species and respond aggressively to threats.

126

Renaissance_Man Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:37:18am

re: #112 BigPapa

I just don’t this factor as significant. Any well known condescending intellectuals of any significant impact that would fit this mold?

It just seems like a false narrative built upon the ‘liberal professor’ stereotype being of significant scale.

I guarantee that 95% of those who condemn ‘those intellectuals’ for lecturing from their ivory towers and their snobbery towards the common man cannot name five ‘intellectuals’ whose works they have ever read any part of.

In other words, this idea that ‘intellectuals’ have fostered resentment in the ‘common man’ through their sneering lectures is a ridiculous canard.

It’s the first stirring of the current hate cult - those liberals/intellectuals/elites out there, they hate you, they look down on you because they think you’re stupid. Therefore you must hate everything they stand for. Sure, you haven’t read anything of theirs, but that’s okay, we’ll tell you what they stand for.

127

FemNaziBitch Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:39:53am

re: #123 Jadespring

Why are you determined to use ‘the intellectuals’ this way as if it’s some sort of intellectual groupthink that causes all of them to attack religion. It’s broad brush and total bunk. Yes some intellectuals attack religion and there are many that don’t. Theologians come to mind as an obvious example.

I don’t get this intellectuals (as a whole) are anti-religious stereotype either. I think it’s more of an example of political prop that’s been so ingrained that it’s taken on some sort of ‘truth’. It’s in and off it self and example of anti-intellectulism memes in action.

Because the topic at hand used the word “intellectual” in that sense.

Certainly there are different flavors and nuances to the word, but they weren’t/aren’t part of the discussion.

128

Jadespring Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:41:26am

re: #127 ggt

Because the topic at hand used the word “intellectual” in that sense.

Certainly there are different flavors and nuances to the word, but they weren’t/aren’t part of the discussion.

Yes I know but the way you are talking about it is by playing on stereotypes to make your points as if the stereotype was the truth.

129

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:42:28am

re: #118 reine.de.tout

Teaching is very very hard, exhausting work.

But Obdi - please don’t make an assumption that all incoming students attending a state school are under-educated.

I’m not making that assumption. However, a very large number are. My mother teaches freshman English at Rhode Island College, and has for twenty years. A majority of her students do not know how to write an essay. A majority cannot diagram a sentence. A significant minority cannot write grammatical English.

My father taught at UCONN. The situation there was better, but most students had no idea how to make an argument for themselves. They thought they were supposed to write the argument he wanted to hear, not to construct one for themselves.

I’m not slamming those students, I’m saying we’ve not given them the education they deserve prior to college.

130

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:43:03am

re: #127 ggt

Because the topic at hand used the word “intellectual” in that sense.

Certainly there are different flavors and nuances to the word, but they weren’t/aren’t part of the discussion.

The topic at hand used the word ‘intellectual’ in that sense? How so?

131

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:43:36am

Both my parents are converts to Catholicism, by the way. Scary, scary anti-religious intellectuals.

132

ClaudeMonet Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:46:33am

re: #124 BigPapa

Making a boatload of money should be virtue, at least I thought it was to capitalists. I don’t see anything wrong with it in that sense. To make it a negative there has to be an implication that it’s done by nefarious means.

I fully hope to make a boatload of $ ‘doing something’ about AGW: installing energy monitoring systems and technologies. There is nothing wrong with making money fighting AGW, unless you’re Al Gore.

I rejected AGW for an extended period of time because of my distaste for Al Gore’s style and method, but is he to blame for my rejection of AGW, or me?

Whether justified or not, Gore’s cashing in did reek of “create a need, then fill it”, not all that dissimilar from creating a war atmosphere in order to have a reason to go to war, or telling people they are in danger of succumbing to “The Devil” in order to get donations.

And, I hope you make a lot of money “doing something”. I love capitalism, even if I have no skill at it. Make money doing hands-on work in a good cause? Very cool.

You overcame your aversion to the lecturer and were smart enough to be able to work it out for yourself. Most people can’t get past their initial distaste.

133

FemNaziBitch Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:47:40am

re: #130 Obdicut

The topic at hand used the word ‘intellectual’ in that sense? How so?

re: #44 ClaudeMonet

re: #26 Obdicut

Danger: America Is Losing Its Edge In Innovation

Anti-intellectualism is starting to reap us a bitter harvest.

Seriously, the nativists and anti-intellectuals couldn’t be doing a better job of ruining the future of this country if they were trying to.

IMO this is an example of the Law of Unintended Consequences. The intellectuals, by spending years trying to mobilize the masses by talking down to them and attacking the institutions in which the masses believed, have succeeded in turning the masses away from the very education and intellectualism that created and motivated the educated.

I am NOT saying that nativism and anti-intellecutalism are in any way correct or justified. I am saying that years of telling people how they should live, what they should believe, etc., without consideration for the core beliefs of those being lectured to, have boomeranged on the intellectuals.

134

FemNaziBitch Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:47:56am

I gotta go
Have fun all!

135

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:49:00am

re: #133 ggt

Dude, I raised the topic. You didn’t. The article I cited is not at all about intellectuals who are anti-religious. It’s about scientists and engineers. The majority of whom are religious.

136

alexknyc Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:49:53am

re: #132 ClaudeMonet

Whether justified or not, Gore’s cashing in did reek of “create a need, then fill it”, not all that dissimilar from creating a war atmosphere in order to have a reason to go to war, or telling people they are in danger of succumbing to “The Devil” in order to get donations.

I know that I found Gore’s cashing in distasteful and a disservice to his cause.

But facts remain facts.

137

reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:52:55am

re: #132 ClaudeMonet

Whether justified or not, Gore’s cashing in did reek of “create a need, then fill it”, not all that dissimilar from creating a war atmosphere in order to have a reason to go to war, or telling people they are in danger of succumbing to “The Devil” in order to get donations.

And, I hope you make a lot of money “doing something”. I love capitalism, even if I have no skill at it. Make money doing hands-on work in a good cause? Very cool.

You overcame your aversion to the lecturer and were smart enough to be able to work it out for yourself. Most people can’t get past their initial distaste.

Exactly what I was trying to say here:
re: #96 reine.de.tout

In some cases, yes; in some no.
Either way - the rest of us should be secure enough about ourselves to ignore it, real or perceived.

I know exactly what I’m smart about.
And I know exactly what I don’t know (or have talent for), and I’m not a bit embarrassed by it, it is what it is. And so I can pay attention and enjoy the company of the many many folks who are much smarter than I am.

138

Talking Point Detective Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:53:58am

re: #126 Renaissance_Man

I guarantee that 95% of those who condemn ‘those intellectuals’ for lecturing from their ivory towers and their snobbery towards the common man cannot name five ‘intellectuals’ whose works they have ever read any part of.

In other words, this idea that ‘intellectuals’ have fostered resentment in the ‘common man’ through their sneering lectures is a ridiculous canard.

It’s the first stirring of the current hate cult - those liberals/intellectuals/elites out there, they hate you, they look down on you because they think you’re stupid. Therefore you must hate everything they stand for. Sure, you haven’t read anything of theirs, but that’s okay, we’ll tell you what they stand for.

I agree that the gross generalization about “intellectuals” is bullshit.

That said, there is something the lies at the root of the generalization.

In some fields, I have seen a divide between the theoreticians and the practitioners - take teaching as one example. There are many teachers who have real-world experience but who really lack in a basic understanding of educational and developmental psychology. On the other hand, you can find many academics in the field of education whose theoretical framework is undermined by a lack of real-world classroom experience.

Another, similar example of a similar phenomena - perhaps less divisive, would be when you have MBA consultants come in to a business and try to implement a boilerplate - based on theories of business management - but who lack a contextualized understanding of the environment they’re trying to apply their theories to. On the other hand, you have people in business who don’t have basic knowledge about what scientific study of, say, what motivates workers, or the cost-effectiveness of certain business practices, and make the same mistakes over and over again as a result of not having a theoretical background in their field.

139

Kronocide Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:54:54am

How much $ has Gore really made cashing in on AGW? He was actually, comparatively speaking, close to broke after his presidential runs. He’s no doubt turned it around.

But how much money has he really made?

140

PhillyPretzel Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:56:02am

re: #139 BigPapa
Excellent question. I doubt there will be an answer.

141

BongCrodny Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:56:28am

re: #92 ClaudeMonet

On this point, I agree completely.

“Smart” may not save us, but “dumb” is going to get us in all sorts of trouble sure as shit.

142

Kronocide Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:58:16am

re: #138 Talking Point Detective

Another, similar example of a similar phenomena - perhaps less divisive, would be when you have MBA consultants come in to a business and try to implement a boilerplate - based on theories of business management - but who lack a contextualized understanding of the environment they’re trying to apply their theories to..

You just encapsulated a core frustration of mine that caused me to leave a ‘successful’ company and start my own. I just have to learn the ‘business’ side of things because I spent the time getting dirty on the front lines and worked my way up to management and strategy.

The Ivory Tower stereotypes applied in my instance.

143

Talking Point Detective Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:58:49am

I haven’t read through all the comments in this thread - so maybe someone can help me out:

Is someone actually arguing that Al Gore is an example of “intellectuals” not understanding the perspective of the common man? Al Gore is not an intellectual. His involvement in promoting AGW science is not an example of an intellectual not understanding how their theories come off to the general public.

Al Gore is a politician - and that anyone confuses him with a climate science “intellectual” is ridiculous.

144

alexknyc Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:59:50am

re: #139 BigPapa

How much $ has Gore really made cashing in on AGW? He was actually, comparatively speaking, close to broke after his presidential runs. He’s no doubt turned it around.

But how much money has he really made?

I can’t find a legit source for estimates (no idea what they base it on anyway) but he made a $35M investment in a venture capital firm so I’m gonna guess it’s nine figures.

145

PhillyPretzel Sun, Jan 23, 2011 12:01:26pm

re: #144 alexknyc
It might me that much.

146

Talking Point Detective Sun, Jan 23, 2011 12:03:35pm

re: #142 BigPapa

You just encapsulated a core frustration of mine that caused me to leave a ‘successful’ company and start my own. I just have to learn the ‘business’ side of things because I spent the time getting dirty on the front lines and worked my way up to management and strategy.

The Ivory Tower stereotypes applied in my instance.

I think that walking the divide between theory and practice, in almost any field, should be the goal. I see example after example where people fail to understand that goal, and instead get locked into a position of defending their own cohort and bitching uselessly about the other side.

147

ClaudeMonet Sun, Jan 23, 2011 12:07:08pm

re: #141 BongCrodny

“Smart” may not save us, but “dumb” is going to get us in all sorts of trouble sure as shit.

Succinct and accurate.

148

Kronocide Sun, Jan 23, 2011 12:10:20pm

re: #143 Talking Point Detective

I haven’t read through all the comments in this thread - so maybe someone can help me out:

Is someone actually arguing that Al Gore is an example of “intellectuals” not understanding the perspective of the common man? Al Gore is not an intellectual. His involvement in promoting AGW science is not an example of an intellectual not understanding how their theories come off to the general public.

Al Gore is a politician - and that anyone confuses him with a climate science “intellectual” is ridiculous.

I brought up Al Gore here. Nobody is saying he’s an intellectual be he otherwise is a good point of reference.

149

Talking Point Detective Sun, Jan 23, 2011 12:17:18pm

re: #148 BigPapa

I brought up Al Gore here. Nobody is saying he’s an intellectual be he otherwise is a good point of reference.

Ok - got it. Yes, Gore is the perfect example of how some people throw anything at the wall, in order to rally the troops in opposition to the limp-wristed, librul, intellectuals that are trying to take over the country.

150

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Jan 23, 2011 12:38:27pm

re: #26 Obdicut

Danger: America Is Losing Its Edge In Innovation

Anti-intellectualism is starting to reap us a bitter harvest.

Seriously, the nativists and anti-intellectuals couldn’t be doing a better job of ruining the future of this country if they were trying to.

I think we’ll start seeing greater intellectual gulfs the way we’re seeing great wealth gulfs

151

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Jan 23, 2011 12:39:54pm

re: #129 Obdicut

I’m not making that assumption. However, a very large number are. My mother teaches freshman English at Rhode Island College, and has for twenty years. A majority of her students do not know how to write an essay. A majority cannot diagram a sentence. A significant minority cannot write grammatical English.

My father taught at UCONN. The situation there was better, but most students had no idea how to make an argument for themselves. They thought they were supposed to write the argument he wanted to hear, not to construct one for themselves.

I’m not slamming those students, I’m saying we’ve not given them the education they deserve prior to college.

this

152

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Jan 23, 2011 12:42:14pm

re: #89 ClaudeMonet

elcome exception. In my perfect world, every person with a college education would be required to spend at least one year out of each ten in the field, working with real people.

???

I went to two different colleges, and I was surrounded by teachers/instructors/professors who worked in the fields they taught in, not like one year out of ten, ten years out of ten.

153

ClaudeMonet Sun, Jan 23, 2011 12:52:45pm

re: #152 WindUpBird

???

I went to two different colleges, and I was surrounded by teachers/instructors/professors who worked in the fields they taught in, not like one year out of ten, ten years out of ten.

You went to better colleges than I did, then. Most of the professors/teachers/instructors at my school wouldn’t have dreamed of actually mingling with, you know, what the school president called “the little people”.

I’m not sure which irritated me more—how out of touch they were, or how mediocre they were in terms of intellect and teaching ability. I got a hell of a lot better education at my huge “warehouse” public high school.

154

Gus Sun, Jan 23, 2011 2:09:29pm

I have Tweetdeck all set up and ready to go. Right now I think of it as a means of avoiding the mentally deranged wingnuts commonly known as The Stalkers™.

155

Charles Johnson Sun, Jan 23, 2011 2:27:50pm

re: #154 Gus 802

I have Tweetdeck all set up and ready to go. Right now I think of it as a means of avoiding the mentally deranged wingnuts commonly known as The Stalkers™.

Tweetdeck is a great program. Add usernames to the global filter and you never see their tweets again. Really helps keep the Idiot Brigade from cluttering up the timeline.

Spy Mode Auto

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