Convicted in November by a civilian jury for his role in the bombings of the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani was sentenced today to life without parole.
The argument that terrorism cases can’t be successfully tried in civilian court is now officially defunct.
1 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:31:20pm |
I’m always glad to see due process and justice go hand in hand!
| 2 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:34:09pm |
There can be no justice without a chance of acquittal. This is the price we pay for the rights we have.
Thank goodness we do.
| 3 |
HAL2010 Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:34:23pm |
Or you could ask Ramzi Yousef, who was sentenced to life in prison for the 1993 World Trade Centre bombing in 1997.
Who could have guessed that due process and the rule of law actually worked?
| 4 |
otoc Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:34:29pm |
So much for all the ranting from the right that it was a evidence that criminal trials don’t work with the tally of charges. Let’s see conspiracy to cause harm to a public building. Yeah, life for property damage.
| 5 |
lawhawk Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:36:07pm |
I wouldn’t go so far as to say that the argument against civilian trials is defunct. Ghailani was found not guilty on 280 counts of murder and conspiracy, but was found guilty on the sole count of conspiracy to destroy government property.
The judge found that single charge sufficient to impose life without parole. That was the right decision considering he was engaging in conspiracy to cause a mass casualty attack and inspire terror.
However, had the judge ruled for a lesser sentence, and that would have meant that Ghailani would avoided the sentence commensurate for the crimes he was involved in. and the hew and cry against civilian trials would be a whole lot louder.
The judge in this instance saved a whole lot of embarrassment for the DoJ and the handling of this case.
| 6 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:37:18pm |
re: #3 HAL2010
Or you could ask Ramzi Yousef, who was sentenced to life in prison for the 1993 World Trade Centre bombing in 1997.
Who could have guessed that due process and the rule of law actually worked?
9/11 Changed Everything™ !!!
| 7 |
simoom Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:37:32pm |
The argument that terrorism cases can’t be successfully tried in civilian court is now officially defunct.
That argument should have been defunct back during the Bush Administration, when there were many civilian trials for terror suspects, and the outcomes were, on average, superior to those of the very limited number of military trials that occurred.
| 8 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:38:23pm |
re: #5 lawhawk
Wouldn’t you agree that this is the risk we take when we afford the accused rights?
I mean, we can’t just say “unless the crime is like super bad and stuff”, because that’s just not how systems work.
| 9 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:38:38pm |
The argument that terrorism cases can’t be successfully tried in civilian court is now officially defunct.
then let’s do it…I’m ready to see KSM in court, somewhere…considering all the hoopla….he admitted it, BO said he will never see daylight again, the controversy regarding his guilty plea etc
| 10 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:39:13pm |
re: #5 lawhawk
I wouldn’t go so far as to say that the argument against civilian trials is defunct. Ghailani was found not guilty on 280 counts of murder and conspiracy, but was found guilty on the sole count of conspiracy to destroy government property.
The judge found that single charge sufficient to impose life without parole. That was the right decision considering he was engaging in conspiracy to cause a mass casualty attack and inspire terror.
However, had the judge ruled for a lesser sentence, and that would have meant that Ghailani would avoided the sentence commensurate for the crimes he was involved in. and the hew and cry against civilian trials would be a whole lot louder.
The judge in this instance saved a whole lot of embarrassment for the DoJ and the handling of this case.
You mean jury trials don’t always come up with exactly the verdict we want?
HOLD THE PRESSES THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!
Honestly for me the chief attraction of a jury trial is that we can keep the wheels of society moving rather than having these people being POWs in a war with an extremely ill defined end….
| 11 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:40:53pm |
re: #5 lawhawk
I hear once a guy who committed a crime got acquitted, too. It’s shocking.
| 12 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:41:39pm |
re: #8 Fozzie Bear
Wouldn’t you agree that this is the risk we take when we afford the accused rights?
I mean, we can’t just say “unless the crime is like super bad and stuff”, because that’s just not how systems work.
When you’ve been convicted in the court of public opinion there’s no need for actual courts or laws.
| 13 |
HAL2010 Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:42:01pm |
re: #6 recusancy
9/11 Changed Everything™ !!!
I honestly find it quite bizarre that this particular mindset has been so persuasive. Considering the numerous terrorist attacks on US soil and US targets prior to 9/11 one would have thought that a degree of belief in ones own system would have won the day.
I fully understand the national (and even Western) trauma it caused to our collective Psyche but I must admit that (now in retrospect) it is scary how quickly we came to abandon our values.
| 14 |
iossarian Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:42:21pm |
re: #11 Obdicut
I hear once a guy who committed a crime got acquitted, too. It’s shocking.
Presumably, in this case, he was found not guilty of the other charges in large part due to the “inadmissible evidence” problem. Namely that we extracted the evidence with rusty pliers.
Which is not so much a slam on the judicial process, rather it’s further proof that torturing your enemies is just a really stupid thing to do.
| 15 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:43:07pm |
re: #5 lawhawk
He wasn’t convicted on the other charges, though, because the evidence was obtained through torture and was thrown out.
| 16 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:43:45pm |
I hope this means we are finally getting rid of that bullshit “pre 9/11 thinking” meme, and getting back to what we did for hundreds of years: start with a presumption of innocence and then have a fucking trial. No amount of people killed changes the nature of justice vs injustice. Being super pissed off isn’t a licence to discard our principles.
| 17 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:44:40pm |
re: #15 Charles
He wasn’t convicted on the other charges, though, because the evidence was obtained through torture and was thrown out.
FUCKING EXACTLY THIS FOREVER.
I regret only that I have but one upding to give for this post.
| 18 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:45:58pm |
re: #16 Fozzie Bear
I hope this means we are finally getting rid of that bullshit “pre 9/11 thinking” meme, and getting back to what we did for hundreds of years: start with a presumption of innocence and then have a fucking trial. No amount of people killed changes the nature of justice vs injustice. Being super pissed off isn’t a licence to discard our principles.
FUCKING EXACTLY THIS FOREVER. Seriously.
| 19 |
Surabaya Stew Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:46:29pm |
re: #15 Charles
He wasn’t convicted on the other charges, though, because the evidence was obtained through torture and was thrown out.
But torturing suspected terrorists is the only way to keep us Real Americans safe! Thats what Rudy 9/11 keeps telling us.
/
| 20 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:46:54pm |
re: #7 simoom
That argument should have been defunct back during the Bush Administration, when there were many civilian trials for terror suspects, and the outcomes were, on average, superior to those of the very limited number of military trials that occurred.
That was the part that confused me. We’d been doing it like this all along. At least two previous administrations. And then, suddenly, it was the worst idea EVER, and TREACHEROUS, and OUT OF TOUCH, and…it made no sense.
| 21 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:48:26pm |
History is going to be so incredibly unkind to the Bush administration, and deservedly so.
| 22 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:48:28pm |
[Link: thehill.com…]
Attorney General Eric Holder on Wednesday suggested federal prosecutors would be open to allowing the self-proclaimed mastermind of the Sept. 11 attack the ability to plead guilty in civilian court.
can anybody explain this?…why wouldn’t prosecutors except his guilty plea?
| 23 |
Interesting Times Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:49:21pm |
re: #16 Fozzie Bear
I hope this means we are finally getting rid of that bullshit “pre 9/11 thinking” meme, and getting back to what we did for hundreds of years: start with a presumption of innocence and then have a fucking trial. No amount of people killed changes the nature of justice vs injustice. Being super pissed off isn’t a licence to discard our principles.
This is something the recent Moscow airport bombing made me think of - I highly doubt Russia employs our style of due process, or is in the least bit squeamish about torture. And yet, all that authoritarianism - which plenty of wingnuts seem to want over here - couldn’t save them from a terrorist attack.
| 24 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:49:22pm |
re: #21 Fozzie Bear
History is going to be so incredibly unkind to the Bush administration, and deservedly so.
///Chiefly because it will be written by glasses wearing academic types, you know liberals safe in their ivory towers….
| 25 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:49:36pm |
re: #21 Fozzie Bear
History is going to be so incredibly unkind to the Bush administration, and deservedly so.
nah, I doubt it…predicting the future is very tricky, you’re usually wrong
| 26 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:49:43pm |
re: #15 Charles
He wasn’t convicted on the other charges, though, because the evidence was obtained through torture and was thrown out.
Yup. That’s one Bush policy that backfired badly. Avoiding torture is not just a bleeding heart pet project. It just makes sense.
| 27 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:49:53pm |
re: #22 albusteve
[Link: thehill.com…]
Attorney General Eric Holder on Wednesday suggested federal prosecutors would be open to allowing the self-proclaimed mastermind of the Sept. 11 attack the ability to plead guilty in civilian court.
can anybody explain this?…why wouldn’t prosecutors except his guilty plea?
Well, he’s been trying to plead guilty for quite a few years now.
| 28 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:51:50pm |
re: #22 albusteve
[Link: thehill.com…]
Attorney General Eric Holder on Wednesday suggested federal prosecutors would be open to allowing the self-proclaimed mastermind of the Sept. 11 attack the ability to plead guilty in civilian court.
can anybody explain this?…why wouldn’t prosecutors except his guilty plea?
Beats me. It seems a guilty plea from him would be a gift, considering that his confessions are inadmissible.
| 29 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:52:08pm |
re: #23 publicityStunted
This is something the recent Moscow airport bombing made me think of - I highly doubt Russia employs our style of due process, or is in the least bit squeamish about torture. And yet, all that authoritarianism - which plenty of wingnuts seem to want over here - couldn’t save them from a terrorist attack.
///They just weren’t using enough of it!
A boot stamping on a human face, FOREVER! Then we’ll be truly free and safe!
| 30 |
Feline Fearless Leader Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:52:35pm |
Oops.
I hope they’re willing to seriously send up the “straw buyers” (maybe via conspiracy charges added on) and send a message that this sort of thing is a major no-no.
| 31 |
TedStriker Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:52:45pm |
re: #23 publicityStunted
This is something the recent Moscow airport bombing made me think of - I highly doubt Russia employs our style of due process, or is in the least bit squeamish about torture. And yet, all that authoritarianism - which plenty of wingnuts seem to want over here - couldn’t save them from a terrorist attack.
THIS.
| 32 |
HAL2010 Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:52:58pm |
re: #21 Fozzie Bear
History is going to be so incredibly unkind to the Bush administration, and deservedly so.
You know, the one member of that administration that really ticks me off more than anyone else?
Misfield.
Reading Woodwards “Plan of Attack” or Ahmed Rashids “Decent into Chaos”. The blood boils when you realise just how badly he fucked up.
| 33 |
Rich7041 Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:54:17pm |
Does this decision apply only to attacks on US (or US embassy) soil? Not sure about the legal argument regarding enemy combatants on their home turf.
| 34 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:54:49pm |
re: #21 Fozzie Bear
History is going to be so incredibly unkind to the Bush administration, and deservedly so.
I’m not so sure about that. Now we’ve returned to the policy of letting countries like Yemen and Pakistan handle terrorism suspects. In terms of human rights and torture they are treated much worse before and after Bush. I’m not sure how history is going to view that but it does make some people feel better because now it’s done out of sight and out of mind.
| 35 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:55:47pm |
re: #34 Killgore Trout
I’m not so sure about that. Now we’ve returned to the policy of letting countries like Yemen and Pakistan handle terrorism suspects. In terms of human rights and torture they are treated much worse before and after Bush. I’m not sure how history is going to view that but it does make some people feel better because now it’s done out of sight and out of mind.
Did we torture them more gently than they did?
| 36 |
iossarian Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:57:14pm |
re: #28 Fozzie Bear
Beats me. It seems a guilty plea from him would be a gift, considering that his confessions are inadmissible.
Presumably this is why they are saying they would be “open to it”. I guess they are trying to imply that this would be a concession from them, when the reverse is probably true.
| 37 |
darthstar Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:57:35pm |
You mean he got free socialized housing, free socialized food, and free socialized medical care for life!??!11ty!
///
| 38 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:57:42pm |
re: #28 Fozzie Bear
Beats me. It seems a guilty plea from him would be a gift, considering that his confessions are inadmissible.
weird…I guess nobody knows
if he’s pleading guilty, then there would not be a jury trial, so he’d not need some elaborate trial setup in NYC etc etc…isn’t that the bast scenario?…I don’t get it
| 39 |
Peter Kaufman Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:59:03pm |
To quote “The Omega Glory” episode of Star Trek,
“These words, and the words that follow, were not just written for the Yangs, but for the Kohms as well!”
“But the Kohms–”
“They must apply to everyone, or they mean nothing! Do you understand?”
“I… do not fully understand, one named Kirk… but the Holy Words will be obeyed; I swear it!”
–Kirk and Cloud William, The Omega Glory
I’ll point out too, that I work just a couple of blocks from the courthouse, and it was no different than when Bernie Madoff, or any number of other high-profile defendants were on trial. Actually, with Madoff, there were more press, and more cops.
Yet, the city claims it would cost $200 million a year in security to try KSM. We also have a bridge, conveniently located, if you wish to purchase it. Inquiries welcome.
I wrote more about this here.
| 40 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:59:25pm |
re: #34 Killgore Trout
I’m not so sure about that. Now we’ve returned to the policy of letting countries like Yemen and Pakistan handle terrorism suspects. In terms of human rights and torture they are treated much worse before and after Bush. I’m not sure how history is going to view that but it does make some people feel better because now it’s done out of sight and out of mind.
Quite agree. Add to that the surge in drone attacks under Obama.
| 41 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:59:33pm |
re: #38 albusteve
weird…I guess nobody knows
if he’s pleading guilty, then there would not be a jury trial, so he’d not need some elaborate trial setup in NYC etc etc…isn’t that the bast scenario?…I don’t get it
There’s no way in hell the US would let KSM get to a jury trial, because we have no legitimately obtained evidence against him. The framing is that we will “let” him plead guilty, but frankly, we are damn lucky if he does.
| 42 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Jan 25, 2011 12:59:56pm |
re: #35 Fozzie Bear
Did we torture them more gently than they did?
Yes. The water boarding was done with fairly strict guidelines and medical personnel on hand. In countries like Pakistan and Yemen anything goes.
| 43 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:01:34pm |
re: #42 Killgore Trout
Yes. The water boarding was done with fairly strict guidelines and medical personnel on hand. In countries like Pakistan and Yemen anything goes.
How about we don’t torture or send them to Yemen? How about we try them and convict them?
| 44 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:01:46pm |
re: #40 000G
Quite agree. Add to that the surge in drone attacks under Obama.
Yup. It’s just easier to kill suspected terrorists that to take them into custody.
| 45 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:02:14pm |
re: #5 lawhawk
I wouldn’t go so far as to say that the argument against civilian trials is defunct. Ghailani was found not guilty on 280 counts of murder and conspiracy, but was found guilty on the sole count of conspiracy to destroy government property.
The judge found that single charge sufficient to impose life without parole. That was the right decision considering he was engaging in conspiracy to cause a mass casualty attack and inspire terror.
However, had the judge ruled for a lesser sentence, and that would have meant that Ghailani would avoided the sentence commensurate for the crimes he was involved in. and the hew and cry against civilian trials would be a whole lot louder.
The judge in this instance saved a whole lot of embarrassment for the DoJ and the handling of this case.
As I’ve already explained in the relevant thread when it was first discussed, the absolute majority of the charges are merely separate victims in one accident. For intents and purposes of the “civilian trials” this is “one charge” - they stand or fall together. So “280 v. 1” is a misleading argument.
| 46 |
iossarian Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:02:17pm |
re: #43 recusancy
How about we don’t torture or send them to Yemen? How about we try them and convict them?
Takes too long. American Idol is on at 8.
| 47 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:02:20pm |
re: #42 Killgore Trout
Yes. The water boarding was done with fairly strict guidelines and medical personnel on hand. In countries like Pakistan and Yemen anything goes.
If being nicer about the way we torture people than Yemen and Pakistan is where we set the bar, then we have failed utterly, imo.
| 48 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:03:38pm |
re: #46 iossarian
Takes too long. American Idol is on at 8.
But they have Paula Abdul! A Muslim! Creeping sharia law!
| 49 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:04:46pm |
re: #43 recusancy
How about we don’t torture or send them to Yemen? How about we try them and convict them?
Because most of the evidence wouldn’t be admissible. The CIA and military intelligence works on actionable intelligence in foreign countries. Surveillance, wiretapping and intelligence gathering is for military purposes and they don’t have to get a warrant from a US judge to snoop on a suspect in Northern Pakistan.
| 50 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:05:01pm |
re: #45 Sergey Romanov
As I’ve already explained in the relevant thread when it was first discussed, the absolute majority of the charges are merely separate victims in one accident. For intents and purposes of the “civilian trials” argument this is “one charge” - they stand or fall together. So “280 v. 1” is a misleading argument.
fix
| 51 |
Political Atheist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:06:20pm |
re: #34 Killgore Trout
re: #42 Killgore Trout
Where we have the most denial from the left is the sheer necessity of many of the Bush policies to combat terror and thwart attacks. I do not refer to waterboarding, I do refer to handovcer to fpreign powers, secret detention facilitis, gitmo, military equipment for surveillance, internet data mining, phone keyword mining etc.
As I see it every Bush GWOT policy that was both very controversial and kept by Obama signals it’s actual necessity based on information unavailable to any ordinary citizen.
| 52 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:06:53pm |
| 53 |
TedStriker Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:08:53pm |
re: #3 HAL2010
Or you could ask Ramzi Yousef, who was sentenced to life in prison for the 1993 World Trade Centre bombing in 1997.
Who could have guessed that due process and the rule of law actually worked?
IMO, 9/11 gave cover to wingnuts that just wanted to kill people who weren’t us and blow up shit that wasn’t ours. Those same wingnuts haven’t had and still don’t have any inclination to grab the people responsible for such attacks and try them in civilian courts, because many of them seem to subscribe to the “Kill ‘em all, let God sort ‘em out” method of dealing with terrorists, even if we can take them and put them on trial.
That ain’t justice, that’s revenge…and America should be better than that.
| 54 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:09:33pm |
re: #51 Rightwingconspirator
re: #42 Killgore Trout
Where we have the most denial from the left is the sheer necessity of many of the Bush policies to combat terror and thwart attacks. I do not refer to waterboarding, I do refer to handovcer to fpreign powers, secret detention facilitis, gitmo, military equipment for surveillance, internet data mining, phone keyword mining etc.
As I see it every Bush GWOT policy that was both very controversial and kept by Obama signals it’s actual necessity based on information unavailable to any ordinary citizen.
Yeah, our pansy laws, rights, and treaties get in the way of real manly justice. /
(this snark is directed at the bolded portion)
| 55 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:10:40pm |
re: #47 Fozzie Bear
If being nicer about the way we torture people than Yemen and Pakistan is where we set the bar, then we have failed utterly, imo.
it’s a war…not an armed robbery down at the 7-11
radical Islam violence is so extreme that untidy measures need to be taken to try and avert that slaughter…it’s just a matter of how you look at it
| 56 |
Stanley Sea Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:10:52pm |
Sorry, OT, but worth it:
CNN
First tweet from @Rep_Giffords Twitter account since shooting: “From the entire Giffords team: Happy 21st Birthday Daniel Hernandez!”
| 58 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:11:22pm |
re: #53 talon_262
IMO, 9/11 gave cover to wingnuts that just wanted to kill people who weren’t us and blow up shit that wasn’t ours. Those same wingnuts haven’t had and still don’t have any inclination to grab the people responsible for such attacks and try them in civilian courts, because many of them seem to subscribe to the “Kill ‘em all, let God sort ‘em out” method of dealing with terrorists, even if we can take them and put them on trial.
That ain’t justice, that’s revenge…and America should be better than that.
That kind of goes along with what I was just reading. Here’s Matt Yglesias on that new Pawlenty video.
I continue to be fascinated by the way in which the rhetoric of “freedom” is always so closely associated with authoritarian populist nationalist movements.
| 59 |
Political Atheist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:12:12pm |
re: #54 Fozzie Bear
When you convince the people that actually have the data you do not have I’ll be more convinced it’s merely macho attitude rather than the scope of the task at hand. Until then, you are simply ignoring the evidence we do have. Obama’s policies. He owns them.
| 60 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:13:10pm |
| 61 |
Feline Fearless Leader Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:14:40pm |
re: #58 recusancy
That’s because you’re only “free” when the government is watching out for you every step of the way to make sure no outside agency messes with your many freedoms.
Look at the idyllic life free-range chickens lead in our industrial society. Until the _Chicken Run_ watching liberals step in and start leading the citizenry into misguided escape attempts…
/
| 62 |
Batman Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:14:53pm |
Because after 9/11 terrorists became immune to the justic system. No jury on earth would convict a terrorist after 9/11.
| 63 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:15:15pm |
re: #53 talon_262
IMO, 9/11 gave cover to wingnuts that just wanted to kill people who weren’t us and blow up shit that wasn’t ours. Those same wingnuts haven’t had and still don’t have any inclination to grab the people responsible for such attacks and try them in civilian courts, because many of them seem to subscribe to the “Kill ‘em all, let God sort ‘em out” method of dealing with terrorists, even if we can take them and put them on trial.
That ain’t justice, that’s revenge…and America should be better than that.
and that’s exactly what BO is doing, selectively…knocking the shit out of terrorists on the ground…I don’t know why you see it as a partisan thing when it clearly isn’t
| 64 |
TedStriker Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:16:48pm |
| 65 |
garhighway Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:17:17pm |
Has anyone read “The Dark Side” by Jane Mayer? It provides a great narrative of this chapter in American history.
| 66 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:17:38pm |
re: #59 Rightwingconspirator
When you convince the people that actually have the data you do not have I’ll be more convinced it’s merely macho attitude rather than the scope of the task at hand. Until then, you are simply ignoring the evidence we do have. Obama’s policies. He owns them.
You are mistaking me for someone who supports those policies. That they are his doesn’t make them right.
| 67 |
charlz Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:18:34pm |
| 68 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:19:18pm |
re: #54 Fozzie Bear
Yeah, our pansy laws, rights, and treaties get in the way of real manly justice. /
(this snark is directed at the bolded portion)
I suspect you think you’re debating againt right wing Bush apologists. If Obama were to be honest he’d tell you the same thing. It’s very difficult to bring foreign terrorists into our civilian legal system. It’s easier and more effective to kill them or render them vicious foreign agencies. Why not vent your frustration towards Obama?
| 69 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:21:11pm |
re: #68 Killgore Trout
I suspect you think you’re debating againt right wing Bush apologists. If Obama were to be honest he’d tell you the same thing. It’s very difficult to bring foreign terrorists into our civilian legal system. It’s easier and more effective to kill them or render them vicious foreign agencies. Why not vent your frustration towards Obama?
Look up.
| 70 |
Feline Fearless Leader Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:22:01pm |
re: #67 charlz
and not on AmIdol anymore.
So she is off corrupting some other part of American culture as part of the Jewish Conspiracy to take over the world!!11!!
//
(I just love how a fact tossed out to correct a claimed conspiracy can immediately be twisted to further the conspiracy. Or disregarded by further claim of conspiracy.)
| 71 |
Surabaya Stew Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:22:44pm |
re: #67 charlz
and not on AmIdol anymore.
Yah, it only took me 30 minutes last night while watching recent AmIdol clips with the wife to figure that out. Was wondering how Paula was looking so fine into her 40’s until it dawned upon me that it was J.Lo! Turned out that my Prosopagnosia struck again….
| 72 |
Political Atheist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:23:00pm |
re: #66 Fozzie Bear
No, I’m certainly not mistaking you for a supporter.
My point is the fact he kept those policies against his own stated wishes (see gitmo) is a clear indication they are necessary. When a big critic of certain policies keeps them as POTUS, you can figure real necessity or some unlikely conspiracy. You have helped prove my point about the denial on the stated necessity, thanks.
| 73 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:24:04pm |
re: #72 Rightwingconspirator
No, I’m certainly not mistaking you for a supporter.
My point is the fact he kept those policies against his own stated wishes (see gitmo) is a clear indication they are necessary. When a big critic of certain policies keeps them as POTUS, you can figure real necessity or some unlikely conspiracy. You have helped prove my point about the denial on the stated necessity, thanks.
Or here’s a radical thought… maybe he just didn’t have the votes in congress/the senate to do anything about what he wanted to do…..
| 74 |
Ericus58 Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:26:03pm |
re: #51 Rightwingconspirator
re: #42 Killgore TroutAs I see it every Bush GWOT policy that was both very controversial and kept by Obama signals it’s actual necessity based on information unavailable to any ordinary citizen.
Indeed, the current Administration has left intact many of the policies enacted under the Bush Administration, not the least of which is the use of unmanned aerial vehicles in the prosecution of AQ/Taliban factions.
| 75 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:26:05pm |
re: #73 jamesfirecat
Or here’s a radical thought… maybe he just didn’t have the votes in congress/the senate to do anything about what he wanted to do…
really?….you’d prefer that BO politicize his prosecution of the war?..congress in fact sits this one out unless they cut off funding to pay for killing terrorists…what would that prove?
| 76 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:27:06pm |
re: #74 Ericus58
Indeed, the current Administration has left intact many of the policies enacted under the Bush Administration, not the least of which is the use of unmanned aerial vehicles in the prosecution of AQ/Taliban factions.
BO the cowboy!…gotta love it
| 77 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:28:10pm |
re: #75 albusteve
really?…you’d prefer that BO politicize his prosecution of the war?..congress in fact sits this one out unless they cut off funding to pay for killing terrorists…what would that prove?
I’m not suggesting that Barack should do anything I’m just pointing out that there’s a non “crazy conspiracy” non”this is really needed for the good of the country” way to explain why he kept Gitmo open despite vowing to close it.
| 78 |
TedStriker Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:28:31pm |
re: #63 albusteve
and that’s exactly what BO is doing, selectively…knocking the shit out of terrorists on the ground…I don’t know why you see it as a partisan thing when it clearly isn’t
I’m not talking about destroying military targets of opportunity against known bad actors and their foot soldiers in far-flung places such as AfPak, I’m talking about the (predominately right-wing) mindset that no terrorist could or should be tried in US civilian courts for fear they’ll either get off or the trials will become a target for more attacks.
If at all possible, I want high-ranking terrorists (at the very least)to be hauled into the dock and tried by a jury of their peers (so to speak)…if we can’t grab them and we know who it is and what they’ve done, then the military solution remains on the table, as Presidents Clinton, Bush, and Obama have used.
| 79 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:28:43pm |
re: #77 jamesfirecat
I’m not suggesting that Barack should do anything I’m just pointing out that there’s a non “crazy conspiracy” non”this is really needed for the good of the country” way to explain why he kept Gitmo open despite vowing to close it.
Yes, congress blocked attempts to ship them to the continental US.
| 80 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:29:12pm |
The meltdown continues on the other thread. And it’s even less coherent.
| 81 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:30:46pm |
re: #80 Sergey Romanov
The meltdown continues on the other thread. And it’s even less coherent.
I just saw that. I think he’s having some mental health issues. Very sad to see.
| 82 |
Political Atheist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:31:32pm |
re: #73 jamesfirecat
He would not need permission of either house to change military or NSA/CIA policies. The policies I refer to are executive oversight, not legislative.
| 83 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:31:34pm |
re: #78 talon_262
I’m not talking about destroying military targets of opportunity against known bad actors and their foot soldiers in far-flung places such as AfPak, I’m talking about the (predominately right-wing) mindset that no terrorist could or should be tried in US civilian courts for fear they’ll either get off or the trials will become a target for more attacks.
If at all possible, I want high-ranking terrorists (at the very least)to be hauled into the dock and tried by a jury of their peers (so to speak)…if we can’t grab them and we know who it is and what they’ve done, then the military solution remains on the table, as Presidents Clinton, Bush, and Obama have used.
yeah, a military solution is a no brainer…but to dis the right wing because they think so too is disingenuous..as for that assertion, I guess I’d want to see some proof….that’s only fair
| 84 |
charlz Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:31:49pm |
re: #70 oaktree
So she is off corrupting some other part of American culture as part of the Jewish Conspiracy to take over the world!!11!!
Her “new reality series Live to Dance competed for the same viewers in the same time slot as reality standard American Idol.” Apparently the Conspiracy isn’t doing so well in the ratings.
| 85 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:32:55pm |
re: #80 Sergey Romanov
The meltdown continues on the other thread. And it’s even less coherent.
sad…I don’t want any part of it
| 86 |
Political Atheist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:33:35pm |
re: #77 jamesfirecat
The problem with closing Gitmo was where to put the most dangerous detainees. If they were to be just released, he could shutter it quickly. But that would be quite foolish. Kinda like just releasing everyone in a supermax prison.
| 87 |
Gus Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:34:44pm |
The judge who set the sentencing.
Lewis A. Kaplan - United States District Judge for the Southern District of New York
On May 5, 1994, Kaplan was nominated by President Bill Clinton to a seat on the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York vacated by Gerard Louis Goettel. He was confirmed by the United States Senate on August 9, 1994, and received his commission on August 10, 1994.
There you go. Clinton/Democrat judge.
| 88 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:34:58pm |
re: #82 Rightwingconspirator
He would not need permission of either house to change military or NSA/CIA policies. The policies I refer to are executive oversight, not legislative.
Gitmo was the only one I wanted to pick a particular fight over since I’m pretty sure that congress did have something to say/do with that issue, and I distinctly seem to recall congress having some say on that issue, am I wrong?
| 89 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:35:55pm |
re: #22 albusteve
[Link: thehill.com…]
Attorney General Eric Holder on Wednesday suggested federal prosecutors would be open to allowing the self-proclaimed mastermind of the Sept. 11 attack the ability to plead guilty in civilian court.
can anybody explain this?…why wouldn’t prosecutors except his guilty plea?
IIRC, they want to proceed with a full trial.
| 90 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:36:32pm |
re: #86 Rightwingconspirator
The problem with closing Gitmo was where to put the most dangerous detainees. If they were to be just released, he could shutter it quickly. But that would be quite foolish. Kinda like just releasing everyone in a supermax prison.
What does “he could shutter it quickly” mean?
Also speaking of supermaxes, why not just move our Gitmo prisoners to one in America after they’ve been tried and found guilty?
| 91 |
garhighway Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:36:44pm |
re: #72 Rightwingconspirator
No, I’m certainly not mistaking you for a supporter.
My point is the fact he kept those policies against his own stated wishes (see gitmo) is a clear indication they are necessary. When a big critic of certain policies keeps them as POTUS, you can figure real necessity or some unlikely conspiracy. You have helped prove my point about the denial on the stated necessity, thanks.
It’s not that those policies were or are “necessary”. It’s that, as regards those already in custody and tortured, we’ve screwed the pooch. We can’t try those guys and we can’t let them go. We’re fucked. Because the guys who designed those policies couldn’t think more than 15 minutes ahead.
| 92 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:36:50pm |
| 93 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:38:46pm |
| 94 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:39:35pm |
re: #86 Rightwingconspirator
The problem with closing Gitmo was where to put the most dangerous detainees. If they were to be just released, he could shutter it quickly. But that would be quite foolish. Kinda like just releasing everyone in a supermax prison.
the entire argument favoring closing the place was one of left wing vanity….fuck that
| 95 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:41:26pm |
Finita. That was a sad slow trainwreck. And completely unexpected too. Like all trainwrecks, I guess.
| 96 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:41:26pm |
re: #94 albusteve
the entire argument favoring closing the place was one of left wing vanity…fuck that
///Yes fuck the idea that everyone deserves due process and nobody should be left in legal limbo!
| 97 |
Political Atheist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:41:47pm |
re: #88 jamesfirecat
The debate was about whether to put them in the US, as in supermax prisons, or back to their native countries. Nobody wanted these guys back. Hardly anyone wanted them in their back yards. By shutter it quickly, I mean it’s easy to close an empty facility.
| 98 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:41:51pm |
re: #81 Killgore Trout
I just saw that. I think he’s having some mental health issues. Very sad to see.
Could be, I don’t know. But I’m not a therapist, and he’s blocked.
| 99 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:42:31pm |
re: #80 Sergey Romanov
The meltdown continues on the other thread. And it’s even less coherent.
Which thread?
| 100 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:42:49pm |
re: #96 jamesfirecat
///Yes fuck the idea that everyone deserves due process and nobody should be left in legal limbo!
who said that?…be more clear if you piggyback onto my post
| 102 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:44:05pm |
re: #100 albusteve
who said that?…be more clear if you piggyback onto my post
How was the argument for closing Gitmo just an act of left wing vanity, please explain Steve….
| 103 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:44:57pm |
re: #94 albusteve
the entire argument favoring closing the place was one of left wing vanity…fuck that
No. Bullshit. It’s about honoring treaties and the rule of law.
| 104 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:45:55pm |
re: #102 jamesfirecat
How was the argument for closing Gitmo just an act of left wing vanity, please explain Steve…
it wasn’t that I know of…I’m referring to the ridiculous notion that Gitmo makes the US look bad, Gitmo makes people around the world hate us, therefore breeding even more terrorists….touchy, feely crap
| 105 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:46:51pm |
re: #103 Fozzie Bear
No. Bullshit. It’s about honoring treaties and the rule of law.
what treaty and what law?…wtf you talking about?
| 107 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:48:04pm |
re: #104 albusteve
it wasn’t that I know of…I’m referring to the ridiculous notion that Gitmo makes the US look bad, Gitmo makes people around the world hate us, therefore breeding even more terrorists…touchy, feely crap
Yeah because there’s nothing at all to hate about how we were keeping anyone we didn’t like in legal limbo and completely ignoring the principle/law of Habeas Corpus….
| 108 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:48:34pm |
re: #104 albusteve
it wasn’t that I know of…I’m referring to the ridiculous notion that Gitmo makes the US look bad, Gitmo makes people around the world hate us, therefore breeding even more terrorists…touchy, feely crap
There’s a Pakistani stand-up comic who says he doesn’t think the US actually captured anyone in Afghanistan, they just offered them an all-expenses paid vacation at beautiful Guantanamo Bay, and guys figured ‘it’s that or Tora Bora—how bad could it be?’
| 109 |
Political Atheist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:49:04pm |
re: #91 garhighway
That only addresses Gitmo, not any of the rest.
| 110 |
Political Atheist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:51:08pm |
re: #103 Fozzie Bear
There is no obligation to release POW’s until the end of hostilities under the law. So those battlefield captures are easily seen as such. Of course guys the FBI catches in the US are a whole ‘nother matter. Gitmo has both, and more.
| 111 |
Lidane Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:52:25pm |
Life without parole = no chance of martyrdom for this terrorist asshole, and justice being served.
Works for me.
| 112 |
Sol Berdinowitz Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:52:40pm |
re: #104 albusteve
it wasn’t that I know of…I’m referring to the ridiculous notion that Gitmo makes the US look bad, Gitmo makes people around the world hate us, therefore breeding even more terrorists…touchy, feely crap
I am not guided by what the rest of the world thinks of us, I am more concerned with how we see ourselves and our relationship to our own laws and constitution.
If we feel it expedient to ignore or abandon the constitution over the threat of terrorism, we are opening ourselves to other expedient suspensions of our constitutional rights.
| 113 |
Political Atheist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:55:27pm |
re: #103 Fozzie Bear
What of international law, POW’s and military tribunals? Do you respect those laws too?
| 114 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:55:32pm |
re: #110 Rightwingconspirator
There is no obligation to release POW’s until the end of hostilities under the law. So those battlefield captures are easily seen as such. Of course guys the FBI catches in the US are a whole ‘nother matter. Gitmo has both, and more.
Holding POW’s is completely consistent with the treaties to which we are a signatory. i have no problem with that. But, you don’t torture POW’s, per those same treaties. People captured within the country are subject to American laws.
The designation of “enemy combatant” is just so much legalistic smokescreening to justify torture, and to justify shipping domestically captured people out of the country to avoid our laws. It’s bullshit, and it’s the primary reason Gitmo is utilized as it is. It’s also the problem we face now in dealing with the prisoners there, because there isn’t any established law to saw what you do once you have already broken the law and violated treaties to get convictions and keep dangerous people off the streets.
| 115 |
garhighway Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:56:23pm |
re: #104 albusteve
it wasn’t that I know of…I’m referring to the ridiculous notion that Gitmo makes the US look bad, (it does) Gitmo makes people around the world hate us (it contributes to that) , therefore breeding even more terrorists (beats me)…touchy, feely crap
You don’t think Gitmo makes us look like hypocrites when we talk about due process of law and human rights? We created our own little Gulag. Granted, there are some badasses there. And some chauffeurs. But we’ve shown in other settings that treating POWs like POWs works, and treating criminals like criminals works.
For the next 50 years, every time we try to jawbone some dictator about human rights he’ll say: “Look at Gitmo. You did what you had to do, and I’m doing what I have to do. Fuck off.”
And for what? Unreliable intel? We sold cheap.
| 116 |
TedStriker Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:57:43pm |
re: #101 Gus 802
I tried to warn Reginald upthread on the LNDT that he was getting stalkerish, but some people have to learn the hard way…
| 117 |
Political Atheist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:57:51pm |
re: #114 Fozzie Bear
Waterboarding should never have happened, and Obama rightly ended it. So, not a part of our debate.
IMO-Of course releasing these trained terror killers to their home countries is an option, limited only by the likelihood of them attacking again.
| 118 |
garhighway Tue, Jan 25, 2011 1:57:52pm |
re: #109 Rightwingconspirator
That only addresses Gitmo, not any of the rest.
Probably because that is all I was talking about.
| 119 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:01:25pm |
OT: I cannot effing believe this shit…
If I want to bring Dad home to die the only nursing care I can get is restricted to referring him to the hospital when he takes a turn for the worse because of his secondary Blue Cross Blue Shield PPO plan.
If he didn’t have the secondary insurance there are multiple nursing services paid for strictly by Medicare that would let him die here in his own bed. WTFF?
Gee it is a fucking good thing that “Obamacare” hasn’t gone into effect yet so that there is no rationing of healthcare or government control over your decisions. ///
(“You have insurance so we can’t treat you”? I never in my life imagined that I would ever hear that one.) :(
| 120 |
BishopX Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:03:26pm |
re: #117 Rightwingconspirator
The December package bombs from Yemen were found because an ex-gitmo detainee who had been released to Saudi Arabia and then went off the reservation walked into a SA security office and told them where the packages were.
| 121 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:03:36pm |
Glenn Beck is threatening to take a chainsaw to a cute bunny rabbit. What a card.
| 122 |
garhighway Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:04:21pm |
re: #119 ausador
OT: I cannot effing believe this shit…
If I want to bring Dad home to die the only nursing care I can get is restricted to referring him to the hospital when he takes a turn for the worse because of his secondary Blue Cross Blue Shield PPO plan.
If he didn’t have the secondary insurance there are multiple nursing services paid for strictly by Medicare that would let him die here in his own bed. WTFF?
Gee it is a fucking good thing that “Obamacare” hasn’t gone into effect yet so that there is no rationing of healthcare or government control over your decisions. ///
(“You have insurance so we can’t treat you”? I never in my life imagined that I would ever hear that one.) :(
That is majorly fucked up. I went through that with my wife, and I got a visiting nurse through my carrier. But we weren’t entwined with Medicare.
You have my deepest sympathies.
| 123 |
iossarian Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:04:28pm |
re: #121 Charles
Glenn Beck is threatening to take a chainsaw to a cute bunny rabbit. What a card.
That guy is a troll and a chancer. I find it remarkable that he manages to keep a straight face (perhaps that’s what he uses the tears for).
| 124 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:05:05pm |
re: #117 Rightwingconspirator
Waterboarding should never have happened, and Obama rightly ended it. So, not a part of our debate.
IMO-Of course releasing these trained terror killers to their home countries is an option, limited only by the likelihood of them attacking again.
If that’s what we have to do to restore the rule of law, i’m all for it. It’s better than taking the position that “we broke the seal” and so oh well, those rules are gone forever.
| 125 |
garhighway Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:05:30pm |
OT: The report on the causes of the Financial Crisis is out.
The GOP is in denial.
[Link: www.nytimes.com…]
| 126 |
otoc Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:05:56pm |
re: #121 Charles
Glenn Beck is threatening to take a chainsaw to a cute bunny rabbit. What a card.
ahh, glenn beck as
Image: texas-chainsaw-1974-leatherface-sunset.jpg
| 127 |
Political Atheist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:06:02pm |
re: #118 garhighway
Gotcha. Just thought to draw you out for the sake of discussion.
| 128 |
Ericus58 Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:06:17pm |
re: #119 ausador
I’m very sorry for your pain and trials. Be brave for your Father.
| 129 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:06:17pm |
re: #121 Charles
Glenn Beck is threatening to take a chainsaw to a cute bunny rabbit. What a card.
I hope he makes some kind of mistake and accidentally shreds a rabbit live on the air, getting himself canceled. (Sorry little bunny, but it’s the greater good)
| 130 |
iossarian Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:06:46pm |
re: #124 Fozzie Bear
If that’s what we have to do to restore the rule of law, i’m all for it. It’s better than taking the position that “we broke the seal” and so oh well, those rules are gone forever.
Interesting to connect that attitude to the ideas behind “austerity”, which basically translates as: we need to endure some pain in order to get back on the right track.
Funny how people’s attitudes change depending on where the pain is felt.
| 131 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:08:38pm |
re: #119 ausador
OT: I cannot effing believe this shit…
If I want to bring Dad home to die the only nursing care I can get is restricted to referring him to the hospital when he takes a turn for the worse because of his secondary Blue Cross Blue Shield PPO plan.
If he didn’t have the secondary insurance there are multiple nursing services paid for strictly by Medicare that would let him die here in his own bed. WTFF?
Gee it is a fucking good thing that “Obamacare” hasn’t gone into effect yet so that there is no rationing of healthcare or government control over your decisions. ///
(“You have insurance so we can’t treat you”? I never in my life imagined that I would ever hear that one.) :(
can Hospice help?
| 132 |
otoc Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:09:26pm |
sorry, earlier blocked
more appropriate…
Image: 220px-TheTexasChainSawMassacre-poster.jpg
| 133 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:09:36pm |
re: #124 Fozzie Bear
If that’s what we have to do to restore the rule of law, i’m all for it. It’s better than taking the position that “we broke the seal” and so oh well, those rules are gone forever.
Hey, it could be fun without the rules. We know OJ committed that murder, so let’s spit on the rules and make his current sentence life. Oh, what vistas open… No criminal goes unpunished!
/ need I?
| 134 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:10:17pm |
re Gitmo
good arguments, but generally I believe we need the joint to stay open til an alternative is found, and can’t imagine a better set up for detaining terrorists
| 135 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:11:04pm |
re: #5 lawhawk
I wouldn’t go so far as to say that the argument against civilian trials is defunct. Ghailani was found not guilty on 280 counts of murder and conspiracy, but was found guilty on the sole count of conspiracy to destroy government property.
……
The judge in this instance saved a whole lot of embarrassment for the DoJ and the handling of this case.
This was almost a disaster. IMO, the Ghailani trial is a big reason behind the administrations decision to start trying these people in front of military tribunals. No elected official will make this mistake again, at least for a little while.
| 136 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:12:04pm |
re: #134 albusteve
re Gitmo
good arguments, but generally I believe we need the joint to stay open til an alternative is found, and can’t imagine a better set up for detaining terrorists
Nobody is arguing it isn’t one hell of a quandary, now that it exists.
Sure, I think it never should have been utilized the way it was, but that’s not the same thing as having a satisfying answer regarding what should be done with it now. I don’t think there really is a very satisfying way forward from here re: Girmo.
| 137 |
Pass The Moonbaticide Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:13:46pm |
re: #39 petercow
Upding for obscure Star Trek reference.
| 139 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:14:45pm |
re: #131 albusteve
can Hospice help?
Yes, but the restrictions on what they will and wont do make me uncomfortable, and you are forced to sign all medicare/insurance benefits over to them. If you end up needing a treatment or medication that they decide against then you have to pay for it out of your own pocket.
It may very well come to me asking hospice for help, they have always been the most likely source, I was just looking to see if there was any alternative. So far the answer is no… :(
| 140 |
garhighway Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:14:49pm |
re: #127 Rightwingconspirator
Gotcha. Just thought to draw you out for the sake of discussion.
More seriously (and I admit that was a smartass response on my part for which I apologize), I didn’t see any other major topic being discussed there.
What else is there? Drone attacks? I like ‘em. Gulf War 2? It was a bad idea. Cross border incursions into Pakistan? I don’t like them, but I think it is how we have to fight that war, and I don’t think the Pakistanis get to pretend they are innocent here.
But when we take people into custody out there in Afghanistan or Iraq, we need to do several things:
1> Not torture them
2> Treat them in a manner consistent with the Geneva Convention, and
3> If we think they have violated US law and it is worth prosecuting them, remand them to our criminal justice system. If we have treated them appropriately up to that point in time, we probably haven’t irretrievably messed up a prosecution.
I have no idea what to do with the guys in Gitmo now. I see no good answer there.
| 141 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:15:34pm |
re: #22 albusteve
[Link: thehill.com…]
Attorney General Eric Holder on Wednesday suggested federal prosecutors would be open to allowing the self-proclaimed mastermind of the Sept. 11 attack the ability to plead guilty in civilian court.
can anybody explain this?…why wouldn’t prosecutors except his guilty plea?
IIRC, the guilty plea was tagged to his desire to die a martyr. He’s no longer allowed to decide the terms of his death for himself, that’s our job.
| 142 |
Feline Fearless Leader Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:16:12pm |
re: #137 Pass The Moonbaticide
Upding for obscure Star Trek reference.
To one of the worst TOS episodes either.
And note from the quote that the man says the words will be obeyed because they’re holy, not because he has any idea of the concept behind them and why they are such a good idea.
| 143 |
Surabaya Stew Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:16:37pm |
| 144 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:17:38pm |
re: #141 RogueOne
IIRC, the guilty plea was tagged to his desire to die a martyr. He’s no longer allowed to decide the terms of his death for himself, that’s our job.
We don’t have a case against him, so a guilty plea saves face for the US. What you have illustrated is a possible spin the US will take publicly, however.
| 146 |
Feline Fearless Leader Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:19:54pm |
re: #144 Fozzie Bear
We don’t have a case against him, so a guilty plea saves face for the US. What you have illustrated is a possible spin the US will take publicly, however.
Besides, with our all-powerful, all-intrusive, all-conspiracy 24x7 socialist-fascist Mooselim-loving government it should be a piece of cake to set up a false-flag operation and kill him when we want to in such way to cast the blame on Sarah Palin.
///
| 147 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:20:24pm |
re: #136 Fozzie Bear
Nobody is arguing it isn’t one hell of a quandary, now that it exists.
Sure, I think it never should have been utilized the way it was, but that’s not the same thing as having a satisfying answer regarding what should be done with it now. I don’t think there really is a very satisfying way forward from here re: Girmo.
somehow the 200 and some detainees need to be processed and taken off the books, and there has been little progress toward that end….I do not favor endless incarceration…
secondly, we should never again drag back combatants from afar and stick them behind the wire with no plan…I am absolutely in favor of killing the Taliban or whoever else and let them mummify where they lay…and if we decide that is too brutal, then let’s get the hell out of Afghanistan, lick our wounds and grieve our dead
| 148 |
tradewind Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:21:21pm |
re: #5 lawhawk
Exactly. But for the conspiracy conviction, which could have gone another way, we’d be screwed. I say ’ we’d be screwed ’ because there would have to be an ensuing mad scramble to figure out a way to keep him incarcerated…..not because he would have been released. But it would have been messy beyond belief.
If Gitmo hadn’t been in place when Obama took office, he’d have had to invent it.
| 149 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:22:50pm |
re: #141 RogueOne
IIRC, the guilty plea was tagged to his desire to die a martyr. He’s no longer allowed to decide the terms of his death for himself, that’s our job.
oh fuck…toast the guy and move on
to hell with the martyr gig
| 150 |
harrylook Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:23:05pm |
The issue has never been whether we can try foreign illegal combatants in civilian court, but whether we should. There are serious constitutional issues, such as whether/to what extent the courts can tell the POTUS how to conduct war. Now there is no looking back. We will have to try these guys in civilian court no matter what. Or, if we can’t, we will just hold them forever, without trial, in which case, how is that any better than military tribunals? One can imagine many different problems with the civilian court route, such as what happens when the US has learned information gained by torture committed by other governments, which information leads to the capture of a HVT or discovery of lots of good evidence. Or what happens if/when a judge says evidence seized during a search of a hut in Afghanistan is inadmissible because it was performed without a warrant. Civilian trial worked in this case, but it won’t work in every case, and that could eventually be deadly for some of us.
| 151 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:23:27pm |
| 152 |
garhighway Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:25:09pm |
re: #147 albusteve
somehow the 200 and some detainees need to be processed and taken off the books, and there has been little progress toward that end…Agree I do not favor endless incarceration…Agree
secondly, we should never again drag back combatants from afar and stick them behind the wire with no plan… Agree I am absolutely in favor of killing the Taliban or whoever else and let them mummify where they lay…and if we decide that is too brutal, then let’s get the hell out of Afghanistan, lick our wounds and grieve our dead Agree
| 153 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:27:31pm |
re: #151 Fozzie Bear
/facepalm
What a colossal asshole.
fine,, keep them around, but do not allow them to become an executive instrument to perp the presidents wishes…congress is supposed to make laws, not the EPA or judges….lets get back to that…(I did not read the article, I’m busy with doctors)
| 154 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:28:33pm |
re: #153 albusteve
That’s a really novel use of the word ‘perp’.
| 155 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:29:12pm |
| 156 |
TedStriker Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:29:42pm |
| 157 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:30:10pm |
re: #153 albusteve
fine,, keep them around, but do not allow them to become an executive instrument to perp the presidents wishes…congress is supposed to make laws, not the EPA or judges…lets get back to that…(I did not read the article, I’m busy with doctors)
I really don’t think the EPA has done anything (either at Obama’s behest or on its own) which is outside the bounds of its mission. Do you disagree?
| 158 |
harrylook Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:31:16pm |
btw, i agree with life in prison for killer jihadis. they want death, so I say we deprive them of it for as long as possible.
| 159 |
garhighway Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:32:03pm |
Signing off, and leaving to go skiing out West.
See y’all.
| 160 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:32:14pm |
re: #152 garhighway
I’m not a fan of our efforts in Afghanistan….our troops are a priceless treasure and we simply cannot unleash the epic fury it would take to eradicate the Taliban, and fuck the Pakistanis, they mean nothing to me excepting their nukes…I say bug out…what a heartbreaker…the ME will kick our ass unless we go full auto on whoever we see as an enemy…can’t be done and shouldn’t….the whole thing makes we want to either blow my lid or just cry
| 161 |
Political Atheist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:32:16pm |
re: #140 garhighway
What comes to my mind is domestic surveillance-Emails, phone calls etc. Military equipment for surveillance of criminal (terror) activity. Martial law on airliners as in if you argue with a stewardess you risk arrest.
| 162 |
Gus Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:32:47pm |
re: #153 albusteve
fine,, keep them around, but do not allow them to become an executive instrument to perp the presidents wishes…congress is supposed to make laws, not the EPA or judges…lets get back to that…(I did not read the article, I’m busy with doctors)
The nuances and intricacies of environmental protection is beyond the grasp of congress which is largely populated by attorneys. They can create general guidelines or rules but not the specific regulations requiring knowledge in the sciences and engineering.
| 163 |
garhighway Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:33:03pm |
re: #161 Rightwingconspirator
What comes to my mind is domestic surveillance-Emails, phone calls etc. Military equipment for surveillance of criminal (terror) activity. Martial law on airliners as in if you argue with a stewardess you risk arrest.
All interesting topics. Another time.
| 164 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:33:23pm |
| 165 |
McSpiff Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:33:52pm |
re: #34 Killgore Trout
I’m not so sure about that. Now we’ve returned to the policy of letting countries like Yemen and Pakistan handle terrorism suspects. In terms of human rights and torture they are treated much worse before and after Bush. I’m not sure how history is going to view that but it does make some people feel better because now it’s done out of sight and out of mind.
That never stopped. Not for one day of the Bush administration. I’m not sure why you continue lying about this honestly, this has got to be at least the third time I’ve pointed it out to you.
| 166 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:34:58pm |
re: #157 Fozzie Bear
I really don’t think the EPA has done anything (either at Obama’s behest or on its own) which is outside the bounds of its mission. Do you disagree?
not yet…and I speak in terms of the POTUS, not BO…
shit BRB
| 167 |
Buck Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:35:20pm |
re: #119 ausador
OT: I cannot effing believe this shit…
If I want to bring Dad home to die the only nursing care I can get is restricted to referring him to the hospital when he takes a turn for the worse because of his secondary Blue Cross Blue Shield PPO plan.
I am going through something similar here in Canada. My father is palitive, and we have decided to keep him in his home. We set up a whole hospital room with special bed, and a lift to get him in and out of bed.
The care is costing us about $5K a month, only because the public insurance would prefer he was in a palitive care center.
They originally told us it would be about three months. It has been five.
| 168 |
Gus Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:37:46pm |
So you get rid of the EPA. Let’s say then Ohio start sending up smoke stack toxins that do not impact Ohio but Pennsylvania and points east. What does Pennsylvania do? Sue Ohio? Then there’s water runoff, watersheds and waterways. Minnesota start dumping toxin into the Mississippi which doesn’t affect Minnesota but points downstream. And so on. Getting rid of the EPA would actually lead to more litigation. The USA is made of states which create and ecosystem. Ecology does not cease to exist on state borders.
| 169 |
theheat Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:39:50pm |
re: #151 Fozzie Bear
The GOP wants to drill it and kill it; a bible in every hand, a church on every corner, a child every nine months, let the corporations turn the world into their personal sewers, ignore climate change, ignore population growth vs. finite resources… and the earth could look like the lunar landscape in 5-10 years. There isn’t a hint of responsible stewardship among the lot of them.
But they’re all over gay marriage and de-funding Planned Parenthood, because they care so deeply about important stuff.
Evil lunatics.
| 170 |
Gus Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:41:44pm |
“An ecosystem” not “and ecosystem”.
Oh yeah. I’m sure the duck hunters are really going to love it when ducks start dying off from being poisoned in “State A” and never making their way to “State B” for hunting season. Then Fish and Wildlife will have their hands tied because their won’t be a federal agency like the EPA to mitigate the harm from pollution.
It’s a very stupid idea.
| 171 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:43:08pm |
re: #138 recusancy
You really can’t make this shit up
The real comedy comes when people claim that newt Gingrich is some kind of GOP brian trust
| 172 |
theheat Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:43:09pm |
re: #170 Gus 802
What pollution? You need pollution to create jobs.
//
| 174 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:44:13pm |
Chris Matthews is great today! I love it when Tweety gets all righteous against teabaggers.
| 175 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:44:18pm |
re: #172 theheat
Why, you can get a job cleaning up the pollution! The private sector will create those jobs because…
Anyway, jobs!
| 176 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:44:49pm |
re: #168 Gus 802
So you get rid of the EPA. Let’s say then Ohio start sending up smoke stack toxins that do not impact Ohio but Pennsylvania and points east. What does Pennsylvania do? Sue Ohio? Then there’s water runoff, watersheds and waterways. Minnesota start dumping toxin into the Mississippi which doesn’t affect Minnesota but points downstream. And so on. Getting rid of the EPA would actually lead to more litigation. The USA is made of states which create and ecosystem. Ecology does not cease to exist on state borders.
No, it does not.
| 177 |
Gus Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:45:03pm |
re: #169 theheat
The GOP wants to drill it and kill it; a bible in every hand, a church on every corner, a child every nine months, let the corporations turn the world into their personal sewers, ignore climate change, ignore population growth vs. finite resources… and the earth could look like the lunar landscape in 5-10 years. There isn’t a hint of responsible stewardship among the lot of them.
But they’re all over gay marriage and de-funding Planned Parenthood, because they care so deeply about important stuff.
Evil lunatics.
If you’re favorite fly fishing stream gets polluted just pray a lot. Works all the time.
//
| 178 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:45:08pm |
re: #121 Charles
Glenn Beck is threatening to take a chainsaw to a cute bunny rabbit. What a card.
morning zoo stunts ahoy!
Will he bring out the Breakfast Flakes next? How about Battle of The Sexes? Maybe some zany parodies of popular music that reference the news of the day… perhaps they’ll call God live on the air, and then have a producer talk through an Eventide harmonizer or something so his voice sounds all suboctave and booming
| 179 |
theheat Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:47:14pm |
re: #175 Obdicut
But cleaning up pollution would take away jobs, because more jobs could be created polluting. More pollution = more jobs.
And while we’re at it, I love the idea of strip mining. No nobler heritage than that of a strip miner. (Or is that stripper?)
//
| 180 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:47:56pm |
re: #165 McSpiff
That never stopped. Not for one day of the Bush administration. I’m not sure why you continue lying about this honestly, this has got to be at least the third time I’ve pointed it out to you.
I never claimed they stopped rendition or the use CIA blacksites.
| 181 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:48:01pm |
sorry I cannot be more responsive…I just set up my 9th and hopefully last, surgery on my leg….a skin graft the size of Rhode Island to cover my stump…it’s very good news for me…w00t!…I’m getting that much closer to a prosthesis, I want to ski again too…
as for the EPA, they need a complete overhaul, or junk them and replace the agency with a new one…I’m not advocating shutting down our battle to maintain a clean and safe environment…it’s tricky, but I don’t want to see them become a tool for whoever pays the highest price for their services…our whole approach to GW is in shambles, and now we are broke…governing by executive order is not healthy and I wonder has the EPA been overly influenced by the tree hugger mob?
| 182 |
engineer cat Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:48:30pm |
what’s all this i hear about president obama delivering a STFU speech?
| 183 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:48:42pm |
Uh oh. And now fucking nationalists want to hold some sort of an unsanctioned meeting after Domodedovo. Meanwhile Russian OMON is ready to disperse them. Something’s afoot.
| 184 |
Gus Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:48:56pm |
re: #175 Obdicut
Why, you can get a job cleaning up the pollution! The private sector will create those jobs because…
Anyway, jobs!
Don’t you know? Pollution control only create more regulations. Pollution control systems DO NOT require a manufacturing base, engineers, scientists, laborer, etc.
//
| 185 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:49:06pm |
re: #173 Gus 802
Hey, let’s abolish the FBI.
Why not also abolish the DEA?
//
GTFOH…who needs the Coast Guard eh?
| 186 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:49:07pm |
re: #182 engineer dog
what’s all this i hear about president obama delivering a STFU speech?
I wish he would.
| 188 |
Surabaya Stew Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:50:34pm |
re: #181 albusteve
Upding for the first 1/2 of your post. I really hope the surgery goes well, Steve.
| 190 |
McSpiff Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:51:19pm |
re: #180 Killgore Trout
I never claimed they stopped rendition or the use CIA blacksites.
They never stopped turning suspected terrorists over to 3rd party nations for torture. There is no factual way to interrupt your post that makes it correct.
| 191 |
theheat Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:51:19pm |
re: #181 albusteve
Good luck on your surgery. I know it’s been a long haul and I wish you all the best.
| 192 |
engineer cat Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:51:23pm |
Official: Obama To Call for 5-year Hippie Freeze in State of the Union
cryogenically restrained bohemian radicals to be released in time for palin/goebbels administration
| 193 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:52:35pm |
re: #183 Sergey Romanov
Uh oh. And now fucking nationalists want to hold some sort of an unsanctioned meeting after Domodedovo. Meanwhile Russian OMON is ready to disperse them. Something’s afoot.
Russia needs to flex their muscle again…brutal smackdowns are in their genes
| 194 |
Gus Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:53:05pm |
“Investment banks cannot invest in job creation until they can overcome the uncertainty of the Bush tax cuts not being extended!”
//No… Wait!
//
| 195 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:54:41pm |
re: #181 albusteve
I don’t trust anyone named Newt Gingrich on matters of any importance ;-) The EPA could use some attention, sure, but not from that guy
| 196 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:54:46pm |
re: #188 Surabaya Stew
Upding for the first 1/2 of your post. I really hope the surgery goes well, Steve.
thanks…it’s cosmetic mostly, but I have to get healed…I have been in a constant state of leg fucked upedness for going on three years…I need to finish off this gig and move ahead…I appreciate it
| 197 |
Rich7041 Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:56:47pm |
re: #71 Surabaya Stew
I thought AmIdol was her prescription drug of choice. Doh!
| 198 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:57:12pm |
re: #181 albusteve
sorry I cannot be more responsive…I just set up my 9th and hopefully last, surgery on my leg…a skin graft the size of Rhode Island to cover my stump…it’s very good news for me…w00t!…I’m getting that much closer to a prosthesis, I want to ski again too…
as for the EPA, they need a complete overhaul, or junk them and replace the agency with a new one…I’m not advocating shutting down our battle to maintain a clean and safe environment…it’s tricky, but I don’t want to see them become a tool for whoever pays the highest price for their services…our whole approach to GW is in shambles, and now we are broke…governing by executive order is not healthy and I wonder has the EPA been overly influenced by the tree hugger mob?
Good news, good attitude. Wrong about us treehuggers. According to some, the last effective environmentalist left the administration yesterday.
| 199 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:57:22pm |
re: #191 theheat
Good luck on your surgery. I know it’s been a long haul and I wish you all the best.
thanks…I’m excited
| 200 |
Political Atheist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:57:27pm |
re: #168 Gus 802
Does Ohio not have an “EPA”? California sure does, and end to the Federal EPA would have little effect. Here it is called the Department Of Toxic Substance Control, or DTSC. It often has stricter standards than Federal EPA. Then we have Air Quality Management Districts.
| 201 |
theheat Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:57:39pm |
re: #194 Gus 802
“Investment banks cannot invest in job creation until they can overcome the uncertainty of the Bush tax cuts not being extended!”
Absolutely, because it worked so swimmingly while they absolutely were in effect.
//
It get so tiring, their bullshit.
| 202 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:58:25pm |
re: #200 Rightwingconspirator
Does Ohio not have an “EPA”? California sure does, and end to the Federal EPA would have little effect. Here it is called the Department Of Toxic Substance Control, or DTSC. It often has stricter standards than Federal EPA. Then we have Air Quality Management Districts.
Ah, can California’s EPA fine force compliance from companies in Washington and Oregon?
That was the main point. State regulations end at state borders. Pollution does not.
| 203 |
McSpiff Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:59:27pm |
re: #202 Obdicut
Ah, can California’s EPA fine force compliance from companies in Washington and Oregon?
That was the main point. State regulations end at state borders. Pollution does not.
Its almost like pollution has an effect on inter-state commerce. Weird.
| 204 |
Gus Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:59:44pm |
re: #200 Rightwingconspirator
Does Ohio not have an “EPA”? California sure does, and end to the Federal EPA would have little effect. Here it is called the Department Of Toxic Substance Control, or DTSC. It often has stricter standards than Federal EPA. Then we have Air Quality Management Districts.
They probably do. But the question here would be interstate enforcement. In Gingrich’s world Pennsylvania would have no avenue for enforcement of generally approved regulations with a neighboring state — which the EPA provides — over say Ohio.
| 205 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:00:10pm |
re: #181 albusteve
sorry I cannot be more responsive…I just set up my 9th and hopefully last, surgery on my leg…a skin graft the size of Rhode Island to cover my stump…it’s very good news for me…w00t!…I’m getting that much closer to a prosthesis, I want to ski again too…
as for the EPA, they need a complete overhaul, or junk them and replace the agency with a new one…I’m not advocating shutting down our battle to maintain a clean and safe environment…it’s tricky, but I don’t want to see them become a tool for whoever pays the highest price for their services…our whole approach to GW is in shambles, and now we are broke…governing by executive order is not healthy and I wonder has the EPA been overly influenced by the tree hugger mob?
Best of luck with that surgery, Steve.
| 206 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:00:16pm |
re: #195 WindUpBird
I don’t trust anyone named Newt Gingrich on matters of any importance ;-) The EPA could use some attention, sure, but not from that guy
Newt flamed out earlier this summer…he’s very bright and likable, but what a waste…the GOP reminds me of some Last Man Standing Club….if ANYBODY could see the TPs for what they are and maybe rein them in, it was Newt…but, alas, he chose the wrong path
| 207 |
Gus Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:00:23pm |
Newt Gingrich’s birth name:
Newton Montgomery Plantagenet Schicklgruber Gingrich
//
| 208 |
Gus Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:01:14pm |
re: #181 albusteve
sorry I cannot be more responsive…I just set up my 9th and hopefully last, surgery on my leg…a skin graft the size of Rhode Island to cover my stump…it’s very good news for me…w00t!…I’m getting that much closer to a prosthesis, I want to ski again too…
as for the EPA, they need a complete overhaul, or junk them and replace the agency with a new one…I’m not advocating shutting down our battle to maintain a clean and safe environment…it’s tricky, but I don’t want to see them become a tool for whoever pays the highest price for their services…our whole approach to GW is in shambles, and now we are broke…governing by executive order is not healthy and I wonder has the EPA been overly influenced by the tree hugger mob?
Best of luck Steve. Hope this is the last one or close to it at least.
| 209 |
tnguitarist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:01:33pm |
re: #121 Charles
Glenn Beck is threatening to take a chainsaw to a cute bunny rabbit. What a card.
I’m betting he’s never handled a chainsaw. Should be fun.
| 210 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:01:36pm |
re: #182 engineer dog
what’s all this i hear about president obama delivering a STFU speech?
That’s very good, but he’s saving that for his 2nd inaugural address. I hope he gives in in a ‘fro and daishiki, carrying Huey Newton’s shotgun.
| 211 |
Political Atheist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:01:59pm |
re: #202 Obdicut
That’s why I asked if Ohio has it’s own. EPA can stop wasting money looking at states that have similar or stronger standards. Save it for states that do not. I just do not know about the other 49 states. Given I’m in charge of compliance at our shop where i work, I’m knowledgeable enough to inquire. Seriously, we have a lot of duplication here.
| 212 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:02:19pm |
re: #202 Obdicut
Ah, can California’s EPA fine force compliance from companies in Washington and Oregon?
That was the main point. State regulations end at state borders. Pollution does not.
Correct.
Which is why the EPA estblishes basic compliance that every state must meet; states are free to make their regs more stringent, but not less.
In other words, we need an EPA
| 213 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:02:44pm |
| 214 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:03:05pm |
re: #198 Decatur Deb
Good news, good attitude. Wrong about us treehuggers. According to some, the last effective environmentalist left the administration yesterday.
I’ve hugged my share of trees…I’m to the point where I’m so frustrated with govt, my first reaction to everything is ‘start over and do it better’!
| 215 |
theheat Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:03:14pm |
re: #209 tnguitarist
Ever watch Dead Alive? There’s a great scene in there with a lawnmower. I kinda see that with Beck and a chainsaw. Or even a blender, for that matter.
| 216 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:03:30pm |
re: #211 Rightwingconspirator
Oh, okay. I get you. Yes, the EPA should target the known worst offenders. They should also get more money for enforcement— right now, they have a long list of known violators that they just don’t have the money to actually get into court and take down.
| 218 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:03:53pm |
re: #190 McSpiff
They never stopped turning suspected terrorists over to 3rd party nations for torture. There is no factual way to interrupt your post that makes it correct.
We are in agreement. Renditions never stopped. You’ll get no argument from me on that.
| 219 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:04:14pm |
re: #211 Rightwingconspirator
That’s why I asked if Ohio has it’s own. EPA can stop wasting money looking at states that have similar or stronger standards. Save it for states that do not. I just do not know about the other 49 states. Given I’m in charge of compliance at our shop where i work, I’m knowledgeable enough to inquire. Seriously, we have a lot of duplication here.
EPA has to monitor states to make sure states are doing what the state regs call for. In other words, a state could have all sorts of regs that are not enforced. EPA ensures enforcement at the state level; they also distribute money to states for portions of state environmental efforts.
| 220 |
tnguitarist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:04:19pm |
re: #215 theheat
Ever watch Dead Alive? There’s a great scene in there with a lawnmower. I kinda see that with Beck and a chainsaw. Or even a blender, for that matter.
I had a friend that was pushing a dull chainsaw through a limb and pushed it right into his shin. Ouch.
| 221 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:04:29pm |
| 222 |
Jadespring Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:04:30pm |
| 223 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:05:16pm |
re: #193 albusteve
Russia needs to flex their muscle again…brutal smackdowns are in their genes
Ahh.. Good ‘ol conservative authoritarian fantasies.
| 224 |
theheat Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:07:33pm |
re: #219 reine.de.tout
With no EPA, and no money going to the EPA, imagine all the truly wondrous things the GOP could accomplish.
//
| 225 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:08:32pm |
re: #210 Decatur Deb
That’s very good, but he’s saving that for his 2nd inaugural address. I hope he gives in in a ‘fro and daishiki, carrying Huey Newton’s shotgun.
Now, would the wingnuts be FOR or AGAINST the shotgun? On the one hand, it IS a gun…
| 226 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:10:35pm |
re: #217 Gus 802
Never hug a sumac tree.
//
got my truck stuck in a shallow mud hole way back in nowhere next to a fishing spot…took my rigging ax and cut tons of spring sumac from the trailside to lay out for a mat to drive over…I probably should have been hospitalized…the worst poisoning ever, and I’ve had them all…I freaked the next few days….never, ever, hug a sumac
| 227 |
Gus Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:12:44pm |
re: #226 albusteve
got my truck stuck in a shallow mud hole way back in nowhere next to a fishing spot…took my rigging ax and cut tons of spring sumac from the trailside to lay out for a mat to drive over…I probably should have been hospitalized…the worst poisoning ever, and I’ve had them all…I freaked the next few days…never, ever, hug a sumac
I got it twice. The first time was while I was surveying. It’s awful. Camomile really helps though.
| 228 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:13:18pm |
re: #223 recusancy
Ahh.. Good ‘ol conservative authoritarian fantasies.
what fantasy?…was the Georgia incursion fantasy?
| 229 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:13:47pm |
re: #226 albusteve
I’m immune to poison oak, ivy, and Sumac.
It came in really useful when my afore-mentioned incredibly deranged Boy Scout troop burned a bunch of poison ivy in an ill-conceived attempt to get high, and I was the only one unaffected and got to go get help.
Inhaling burning poison ivy turns out to be really bad if you’re allergic to it. Who could have figured that out?
| 230 |
Political Atheist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:13:48pm |
re: #216 Obdicut
Yeah, DTSC makes the IRS look like pushovers. I have been to their HQ in Berkeley. Helped design compliance manuals for jewelry manufacturers. Frankly, I’d rather California dropped DTSC, and went with Federal EPA. For example, jewelers polishing dust was declared a hazardous waste. As if it were being released in an uncontrolled manner. Well it is so valuable jewelers wound up teaching DTSC about superior material control. And yet a small error in storage documentation can result in $10,000 per day fines. Rules designed for liquids are applied to powders. Ridiculous stuff like that. No other state found that necessary, nor did the Federal EPA.
So you get a lot of anger about misapplications of rules and regulations. I have lots of examples. It’s all fully documented from my days on the task force with MJSA. EPA has it’s share of mistakes like that too, grist for Newt’s mill of BS. EPA needs reform not removal.
| 231 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:15:15pm |
re: #227 Gus 802
I got it twice. The first time was while I was surveying. It’s awful. Camomile really helps though.
yes, a pleasant surprise…it never worked for me with oak and ivy exposure
| 232 |
Stanley Sea Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:15:43pm |
re: #229 Obdicut
I’m immune to poison oak, ivy, and Sumac.
It came in really useful when my afore-mentioned incredibly deranged Boy Scout troop burned a bunch of poison ivy in an ill-conceived attempt to get high, and I was the only one unaffected and got to go get help.
Inhaling burning poison ivy turns out to be really bad if you’re allergic to it. Who could have figured that out?
You sure DID have a deranged Boy Scout troop. LOL
| 233 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:16:40pm |
re: #229 Obdicut
I’m immune to poison oak, ivy, and Sumac.
It came in really useful when my afore-mentioned incredibly deranged Boy Scout troop burned a bunch of poison ivy in an ill-conceived attempt to get high, and I was the only one unaffected and got to go get help.
Inhaling burning poison ivy turns out to be really bad if you’re allergic to it. Who could have figured that out?
jeez…I’ve always heard it can actually kill you…your Scout troop sounds more like a biker gang
| 234 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:17:09pm |
re: #224 theheat
With no EPA, and no money going to the EPA, imagine all the truly wondrous things the GOP could accomplish.
//
I know, besides which I really miss the acid rain, you didn’t have to strip the old flaking paint flakes off your house before you re-painted back then, the rain would do it for you… :p
///
| 235 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:20:14pm |
re: #233 albusteve
I don’t think biker gangs expend quite so much energy in acquiring pornography and getting college kids to buy them beer, but they definitely were on the wild side.
| 236 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:21:08pm |
re: #229 Obdicut
I’m immune to poison oak, ivy, and Sumac.
It came in really useful when my afore-mentioned incredibly deranged Boy Scout troop burned a bunch of poison ivy in an ill-conceived attempt to get high, and I was the only one unaffected and got to go get help.
Inhaling burning poison ivy turns out to be really bad if you’re allergic to it. Who could have figured that out?
Burning poison oak is a real danger to firefighters in California. They take great precautions to make sure no one gets a lungful.
I’ve been told the local Indians were/are immune. (I don’t know if this is still the case.) The Spaniards were not, and no one thought to warn them.
Apparently, the Miwok used poison oak juice for tattooing. This is not recommended for non-Miwok.
| 237 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:21:33pm |
re: #234 ausador
I know, besides which I really miss the acid rain, you didn’t have to strip the old flaking paint flakes off your house before you re-painted back then, the rain would do it for you… :p
///
If you think you’re joking, you weren’t in Pittsburgh in the 50s.
Donora Case:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
| 238 |
Political Atheist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:21:48pm |
re: #219 reine.de.tout
The last line in my 230 responds to your comment too. Money is too scarce for foolish duplication- If you tie fines to a lack of compliance, states have a good $$ interest in enforcement. Newt has this dead wrong, just exploiting populist anger at regulatory missteps for attention. In turn I’ll exploit his errors to call for reforms. Takes the wind out of his point, and gets us better regulations, I would hope anyway. Does the Roi have any similar tales of duplications or worse yet, conflicting regulations at the oil wells?
| 239 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:24:00pm |
| 240 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:27:15pm |
re: #239 recusancy
Your desire for it.
I have no desire for it no matter how much you’d like that….the Russians need to flex their muscle…get it?…my, you have such negative intentions…why would I benefit from Russian muscle flexing?….you stretcheth
| 241 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:28:45pm |
re: #240 albusteve
Well, apparently everybody took your “Russia needs” statement as a wish.
| 242 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:28:53pm |
re: #237 Decatur Deb
If you think you’re joking, you weren’t in Pittsburgh in the 50s.
Donora Case:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
then there was Love Canal
| 243 |
otoc Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:29:48pm |
re: #230 Rightwingconspirator
EPA needs reform not removal.
It’s funny how in today’s climate anything not perfect seems to need removal instead of simply making changes.
| 244 |
Political Atheist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:30:13pm |
re: #229 Obdicut
I’m immune to poison oak, ivy, and Sumac.
It came in really useful when my afore-mentioned incredibly deranged Boy Scout troop burned a bunch of poison ivy in an ill-conceived attempt to get high, and I was the only one unaffected and got to go get help.
Inhaling burning poison ivy turns out to be really bad if you’re allergic to it. Who could have figured that out?
Wow. You should give blood or something to a good pharma lab-Imagine a vaccine or salve based on your immunity. I never even heard of that kind of immunity.
| 246 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:31:13pm |
re: #241 Sergey Romanov
Well, apparently everybody took your “Russia needs” statement as a wish.
their wish, not mine….makes a lot more sense eh?
| 247 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:31:40pm |
re: #243 otoc
There’s a weird line of logic that’s come from the GOP frequently recently:
1. This regulation/regulatory agency failed to prevent this problem.
2. Therefore, that regulation or agency is worthless and needs to be removed.
It completely ignores the actual problem that needs to be prevented. The obvious conclusion is that we need to work on the regulation or fix the agency.
| 248 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:31:53pm |
re: #229 Obdicut
I’m immune to poison oak, ivy, and Sumac.
It came in really useful when my afore-mentioned incredibly deranged Boy Scout troop burned a bunch of poison ivy in an ill-conceived attempt to get high, and I was the only one unaffected and got to go get help.
Inhaling burning poison ivy turns out to be really bad if you’re allergic to it. Who could have figured that out?
OKAY I GIVE UP
YOU MADE ME DO THIS, YOU BROUGHT IT ALL ON YOURSELF
I never joined the boy scouts because I hated A) the outdoors and B) uniforms)
| 249 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:32:44pm |
re: #247 Obdicut
There’s a weird line of logic that’s come from the GOP frequently recently:
1. This regulation/regulatory agency failed to prevent this problem.
2. Therefore, that regulation or agency is worthless and needs to be removed.
It completely ignores the actual problem that needs to be prevented. The obvious conclusion is that we need to work on the regulation or fix the agency.
because it’s always an excuse to break more government into pieces
| 250 |
Jadespring Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:32:46pm |
re: #244 Rightwingconspirator
Wow. You should give blood or something to a good pharma lab-Imagine a vaccine or salve based on your immunity. I never even heard of that kind of immunity.
I can rub poison ivy on my arm and all it does is go a little red for a while.
| 251 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:33:25pm |
re: #246 albusteve
Now that you’ve explained it, yes.
| 252 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:34:27pm |
re: #244 Rightwingconspirator
Wow. You should give blood or something to a good pharma lab-Imagine a vaccine or salve based on your immunity. I never even heard of that kind of immunity.
It’s not that rare. My wife is immune too. But the immunity can vanish at any point, since it’s histamine based and your body can suddenly decide to have a reaction. And the more contact you have, the more likely it is you’ll lose your immunity.
It’s really just a sliding scale of sensitivity, and I’m down on one side of it.
My friend Ricardo is on the other side, where if he touches clothing that someone else brushed against a leaf with, will get giant blisters.
| 253 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:34:58pm |
re: #242 albusteve
then there was Love Canal
Yes. Donora was more time-compressed and dramatic. IIRC the paint didn’t actually peel from the houses, but many done with a certain pigment changed colors radically. This was a big part of our Pittsburgh kidlore growing up.
| 254 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:35:56pm |
re: #248 WindUpBird
I don’t think the Most Interesting Man In The World ever had to hike miles in the dark to avoid being forced to participate in a circle jerk.
That’d make a good ad, though.
| 255 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:36:50pm |
re: #253 Decatur Deb
There’s lots of great stone steps in Chicago that have been eaten away, blackened, and some caved in because of the pollution. It’s sad; great old houses.
| 256 |
Political Atheist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:37:17pm |
re: #248 WindUpBird
OKAY I GIVE UP
[Video]YOU MADE ME DO THIS, YOU BROUGHT IT ALL ON YOURSELFI never joined the boy scouts because I hated A) the outdoors and B) uniforms)
| 257 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:39:22pm |
re: #252 Obdicut
It’s not that rare. My wife is immune too. But the immunity can vanish at any point, since it’s histamine based and your body can suddenly decide to have a reaction. And the more contact you have, the more likely it is you’ll lose your immunity.
It’s really just a sliding scale of sensitivity, and I’m down on one side of it.
My friend Ricardo is on the other side, where if he touches clothing that someone else brushed against a leaf with, will get giant blisters.
I think a lot depends on the weather, the time of year and some other factors…I had my worst case of poison ivy early in the spring with leaves so small you couldn’t really ID it…clearing ground, ripping out vines and roots…it was pretty bad, the oils concentrated in the woody stems…maybe not tho
| 258 |
engineer cat Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:40:32pm |
PRESIDENT OBAMA”S STFU SPEECH
okay assholes i’m tired of this worthless crap
how many times have you republicans had the chance to live up to your rhetoric but instead just cut federal money for your multinational wall street asshole buddies - huh?
and what’s up with your agitation of america’s natural resource of 50 million morons and sociopaths? trying to start a new sturm-abeteilung?
ok, enough bullshit already. starting today, i am giving you idiots some of that ‘tough love’ you love to talk about:
step one: national health insurance a la canada - i’m sure your out of work insurance magnate buddies will find a lot of sympathetic ears when they complain about losing their cushy jobs
step two: a rational defense policy - just how many times do we need to be able to incinerate the entire solar system? how many countries are we providing armies for? how much do service persons have to suffer so that the military budget can go to your buddies and their super duper luxury fighter jets?
step three: sean hannity gets to live up to his promise to try waterboarding; rush limbaugh goes to enema camp; michelle bachman gets psychiatric treatment, and sarah palin has to finally pass fourth grade
| 259 |
tradewind Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:40:34pm |
Speaking of not giving up:
Please …. go for it. Replace one of the nicest guys in the world with one of the most obnoxious. Republicans need the seat back./
[Link: thehill.com…]
| 260 |
otoc Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:40:53pm |
re: #245 Rightwingconspirator
Politics. Bah.
+2re: #247 Obdicut
There’s a weird line of logic that’s come from the GOP frequently recently:
1. This regulation/regulatory agency failed to prevent this problem.
2. Therefore, that regulation or agency is worthless and needs to be removed.
It completely ignores the actual problem that needs to be prevented. The obvious conclusion is that we need to work on the regulation or fix the agency.
Yup. Seems obvious doesn’t it. Obviously ignoring reality. But what gets me is how many people get riled up in agreement and hostile when approached with alternative thought.
| 261 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:41:50pm |
re: #259 tradewind
Lieberman is suddenly one of the nicest guys in the world? Why do you think that?
| 262 |
tradewind Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:42:13pm |
re: #257 albusteve
Nearly everyone is ’ born ’ immune to poison ivy/oak. It’s an acquired allergy. Problem is, you never know when the next exposure is the trigger….some react early as children, some late, some never.
| 263 |
prairiefire Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:43:28pm |
re: #255 Obdicut
There’s lots of great stone steps in Chicago that have been eaten away, blackened, and some caved in because of the pollution. It’s sad; great old houses.
When I was young, around Chicago I would occasionally see the marble or stone blocks by the curb that were used to step down out of carriages.
| 264 |
tradewind Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:43:39pm |
re: #261 Obdicut
I’m not talking about whether or not you like his politics. He appears very easy-going and soft-spoken in his manner and dealings with people on both sides of the aisle.
Doubtless KO could continue that, no problem./
| 265 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:44:23pm |
re: #259 tradewind
Speaking of not giving up:
Please … go for it. Replace one of the nicest guys in the world with one of the most obnoxious. Republicans need the seat back./
[Link: thehill.com…]
there you have it…AmIdol politics
if that’s the case….R. Lee Ermey for President!
| 266 |
prairiefire Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:44:42pm |
re: #259 tradewind
Speaking of not giving up:
Please … go for it. Replace one of the nicest guys in the world with one of the most obnoxious. Republicans need the seat back./
[Link: thehill.com…]
I remember when you posted on ” Joementum.”
| 267 |
Gus Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:46:18pm |
SOTU Checklist:
[ ] Heat Map Detector - ARMED AND READY
[ ] Outrage Fabricator - ON
[ ] Jim Hoft Translator - ON
[ ] Word Counter - SET
[ ] Nontroversy Indicator - CHECK
[ ] Splodey Head Display - ON
[ ] Socialism Radar - ON
[ ] Communism Radar - ON
[ ] Sharia Gauge - ON AND SET
[ ] Godwin Emitter - ARMED AND READY
[ ] Butthurt Annunciator - ON
| 268 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:46:26pm |
re: #262 tradewind
Nearly everyone is ’ born ’ immune to poison ivy/oak. It’s an acquired allergy. Problem is, you never know when the next exposure is the trigger…some react early as children, some late, some never.
really…a reaction is mostly dumb luck
| 269 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:48:33pm |
re: #259 tradewind
Speaking of not giving up:
Please … go for it. Replace one of the nicest guys in the world with one of the most obnoxious. Republicans need the seat back./
[Link: thehill.com…]
“Liberals want Keith Olbermann to run for retiring Connecticut Sen. Joe Lieberman’s (I-Conn.) seat,” says Sean J. Miller.
‘Liberals’ in this case would be people attending the Pennsylvania Progressive Summit.
I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that they may put up both a Facebook page AND a Twitter account, but that Olbermann will not be running for the seat as a Democrat.
| 270 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:48:51pm |
re: #264 tradewind
I’m not talking about whether or not you like his politics. He appears very easy-going and soft-spoken in his manner and dealings with people on both sides of the aisle.
Doubtless KO could continue that, no problem./
Why did you say he was one of the nicest guys in the world, though? Just pointless hyperbole?
| 271 |
tradewind Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:49:01pm |
re: #266 prairiefire
You’re a better-recalling poster than I am, then, Gunga-P/F.
He did win the seat, after all, so I suppose he had enough JoMo for the election. Now that the democrats have sifted themselves into pretty much one camp, though, he doesn’t have anyone left to caucus with, and he’s probably too old-school to caucus with the Republicans. He’s had a good run, you can’t blame him for not wanting to slug it out and probably lose, at his age.
Joe’s a mensch.
| 273 |
tradewind Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:49:52pm |
re: #270 Obdicut
Yawn/scroll.
I explained my thought there, you don’t have to accept.
| 274 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:50:09pm |
re: #273 tradewind
Yep. Pointless hyperbole.
| 275 |
prairiefire Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:50:24pm |
re: #271 tradewind
I think you had him tied in with the momentum of the Tea party, which was accurate, Tea Party wise.
| 276 |
tradewind Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:51:27pm |
re: #274 Obdicut
Good to see you agree with yourself!
Have a good one.
| 277 |
wrenchwench Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:52:07pm |
I gotta go do some work that I’ve been avoiding way too long (paperwork—bleah.) If you want to see what I’ve been doing in an effort to avoid that work, click my nic and read my Pages.
| 278 |
tradewind Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:52:26pm |
re: #275 prairiefire
I doubt it, but maybe you can find an example showing otherwise. If so, again…. great recall.
| 279 |
prairiefire Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:53:06pm |
re: #278 tradewind
I doubt it, but maybe you can find an example showing otherwise. If so, again… great recall.
Nah, I gotta cook dinner.
| 281 |
reloadingisnotahobby Tue, Jan 25, 2011 3:58:55pm |
re: #267 Gus 802
You hacked our family reunion check list??
You BASTARD!! /////
| 284 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:06:41pm |
Who wants to make longshot predictions for the speech tonight?
What’s the craziest thing he might say? Remember when Bush promised manned spaceflight to Mars?
Will Obama declare war on radical Islam or maybe promise to erect a lifesize replica of the Great Pyramids in Wyoming?
| 285 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:06:49pm |
re: #283 Gus 802
Oh geez, I hadn’t thought of that. Maybe now there’s going to be a bunch of interruptions.
| 286 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:08:32pm |
| 288 |
reloadingisnotahobby Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:09:01pm |
re: #5 lawhawk
So let me get this straight….
If I drive three gun men to the party…point out the random people to shoot/kill
supply the guest list and the weapons and ammo …thirty people die and I’m only convicted of Conspiracy to commit??
How is this justice for the families of the victims…?
Am I missing something here or should he have been HUNG in
Kenya or Tanzania??
280 victims didn’t get justice!!
At least Life in a Foreign prison!
| 289 |
Gus Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:09:38pm |
re: #285 Obdicut
Oh geez, I hadn’t thought of that. Maybe now there’s going to be a bunch of interruptions.
Hope not but we’ll see.
| 290 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:10:01pm |
CNN will carry the Rep. Bachmann response, upping the ante for Rep. Ryan.
| 291 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:10:13pm |
re: #287 GreenDroll
Mmnn…
Should one court verdict is considered a precedent setting event? I do not think that the successful prosecution of one defendant in a civilian court is justification for trying all terrorism defendants in this manner.
There have been many, many, many trials of terrorists in civilian courts already.
This is not a precedent.
This will be my last post on this site, I no longer consider the objectivity of the host to be impartial. When this site was conservative in nature it was less judgmental and a little more accommodating of opposing views.
Sounds like you’re the one who can’t tolerate any other views. Seeya.
| 293 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:11:37pm |
re: #288 reloadingisnotahobby
I think you’re mixing up justice and vengeance. No punishment inflicted on him does anything for his victims. At all.
| 295 |
researchok Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:12:08pm |
re: #284 Killgore Trout
Who wants to make longshot predictions for the speech tonight?
What’s the craziest thing he might say? Remember when Bush promised manned spaceflight to Mars?
Will Obama declare war on radical Islam or maybe promise to erect a lifesize replica of the Great Pyramids in Wyoming?
My bet is there will be a ‘We’re all gonna die’ moment, followed by a ‘Unless we come together and do it this way’.
Like the Republic will come to an end because of differences in how to deal.
| 296 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:12:28pm |
I stand close, Your watercannon is irrelevant….
| 297 |
reloadingisnotahobby Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:12:59pm |
re: #294 McSpiff
I only read the first half of that post …can’t have a redo in real life!
| 298 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:13:16pm |
re: #295 researchok
My bet is there will be a ‘We’re all gonna die’ moment, followed by a ‘Unless we come together and do it this way’.
Like the Republic will come to an end because of differences in how to deal.
I’ll buy you a beer if he does it with Glenn Beck’s chalkboard.
| 299 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:13:17pm |
re: #254 Obdicut
I don’t think the Most Interesting Man In The World ever had to hike miles in the dark to avoid being forced to participate in a circle jerk.
That’d make a good ad, though.
Now you’re just running up the score with alleyoops, like a blowout basketball game :D
| 300 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:14:26pm |
re: #296 Killgore Trout
I stand close, Your watercannon is irrelevant…
[Video]
Ah, you have to skip to 1:17
LGF doesn’t support timestamp links to youtube videos yet.
| 301 |
engineer cat Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:14:42pm |
When this site was conservative in nature it was less judgmental and a little more accommodating of opposing views.
i only know of one “conservative” site that won’t ban somebody immediately as soon as they express a view that deviates one scintilla from wingnut orthodoxy
you hain’t been banned ya know
| 302 |
b_sharp Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:15:00pm |
re: #295 researchok
My bet is there will be a ‘We’re all gonna die’ moment, followed by a ‘Unless we come together and do it this way’.
Like the Republic will come to an end because of differences in how to deal.
What’s wrong with Great Pyramids in Wyoming? I’d vote for that.
If I could.
| 303 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:15:19pm |
re: #287 GreenDroll
Well, this is just a lie by a fool, good riddance!
| 304 |
kingkenrod Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:15:39pm |
Does anyone know if the acquittals in this civil trial will preclude similar charges being brought up in a military tribunal? For instance, could Ghailani be charged with targeting civilians (a war crime) in a military court?
| 305 |
kingkenrod Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:16:19pm |
re: #304 kingkenrod
Does anyone know if the acquittals in this civilian criminal trial will preclude similar charges being brought up in a military tribunal? For instance, could Ghailani be charged with targeting civilians (a war crime) in a military court?
Fixed
| 306 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:16:24pm |
re: #244 Rightwingconspirator
Wow. You should give blood or something to a good pharma lab-Imagine a vaccine or salve based on your immunity. I never even heard of that kind of immunity.
I’m immune too. I have no idea what proportion of the population is immune overall, but it’s not unheard of.
| 307 |
Gus Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:17:16pm |
Hmm. Think I just detected a wingnut talking point regarding the sentencing of Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani:
Now all the libruls and the enmedia are going to use this to justify civilian trials for terrorists!!11ty
| 308 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:17:35pm |
re: #304 kingkenrod
Does anyone know if the acquittals in this civil trial will preclude similar charges being brought up in a military tribunal? For instance, could Ghailani be charged with targeting civilians (a war crime) in a military court?
I’m not sure but Obama kept Bush’s policy on indefinite detention so if the trial started to go badly I think they could just send him back to prison and wait some more.
| 309 |
reloadingisnotahobby Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:18:25pm |
re: #294 McSpiff
Updinging flounces reloading?
A learning experience …………..forgive…?
I do think that life in prison is a piece of cake for
this piece of shit…My 2 cents!
| 310 |
kingkenrod Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:20:42pm |
re: #308 Killgore Trout
I’m not sure but Obama kept Bush’s policy on indefinite detention so if the trial started to go badly I think they could just send him back to prison and wait some more.
I don’t know what kind of appeals Ghailani has left, but if he is successful on the conviction, he could walk because the mass acquittals would mean he could claim double jeopardy on subsequent actions, including simply being detained in a military prison. I just don’t know if a military court would care about civilian verdicts. Clearly, it’s a constitutional question.
| 311 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:21:07pm |
re: #116 talon_262
I think the mainspring’s sprung.
| 312 |
reloadingisnotahobby Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:22:17pm |
re: #311 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
It’s not a poem unless there’s more than one line!
…Just sayin………;-)
| 313 |
b_sharp Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:23:20pm |
re: #312 reloadingisnotahobby
It’s not a poem unless there’s more than one line!
…Just sayin…;-)
Why?
| 315 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:25:52pm |
| 316 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:28:47pm |
| 319 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:35:04pm |
re: #318 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Everybody’s a critic.
You think that was criticism? Did you have an older sister?
| 320 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:35:22pm |
| 321 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:35:50pm |
re: #318 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Everybody’s a critic.
My favorite poem doesn’t scan at all:
pity this busy monster,manunkind,
not. Progress is a comfortable disease:
your victum(death and life safely beyond)plays with the bigness of his littleness
-electrons deify one razorblade
into a mountainrange;lenses extendunwish through curving wherewhen until unwish
returns on its unself.
A world of made
is not a world of born-pity poor fleshand trees,poor stars and stones,but never this
fine specimen of hypermagicalultraomnipotence. We doctors know
a hopeless case if-listen:there’s a hell
of a good universe next door;let’s go
- e. e. cummings
| 322 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:36:05pm |
re: #284 Killgore Trout
Who wants to make longshot predictions for the speech tonight?
What’s the craziest thing he might say? Remember when Bush promised manned spaceflight to Mars?
Will Obama declare war on radical Islam or maybe promise to erect a lifesize replica of the Great Pyramids in Wyoming?
I vote for the pyramids. Think of all the jobs! /
| 323 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:37:49pm |
re: #320 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
3
Wow. I’m surprised you’re still functional.
(On the other hand, my younger brother had two older sisters and three younger. He picked out a heckuva wife.)
| 324 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:42:10pm |
Just a little over a hundred thousand posts before we hit 9 million.
| 325 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:42:24pm |
re: #322 Fozzie Bear
I vote for the pyramids. Think of all the jobs! /
Maybe he’ll put on goofy glasses and start talking about “real Americans”. It could happen.
| 326 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:42:37pm |
re: #324 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Just a little over a hundred thousand posts before we hit 9 million.
Who? LGF as a whole?
| 327 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:42:39pm |
re: #324 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Just a little over a hundred thousand posts before we hit 9 million.
Then you’d better write some more poetry.
| 328 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:43:27pm |
re: #325 Killgore Trout
Maybe he’ll put on goofy glasses and start talking about “real Americans”. It could happen.
I vote for the fro and the dashiki. That would be epic.
| 329 |
lostlakehiker Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:45:46pm |
The argument that terrorism cases can’t be successfully tried in civilian court is now officially defunct.
Well, it demonstrates that it’s possible to get one conviction when you have a ton of evidence. On the other hand, the man was acquitted of a very large number of charges of which he was manifestly guilty.
When the government is losing on 90 percent of its counts, there is no firm basis for confidence that it will always win at least one of the counts any time it can bring a bunch of charges.
Probability doesn’t work that way. The argument that trial of terrorists in civilian court is a game that is stacked against the People is stronger now that we have this case to look at. It’s not as much stronger as it would have been if the guy had been acquitted on all charges, but it’s stronger than it would have been had the guy been convicted on almost every count. That is what should have happened.
| 330 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:45:56pm |
re: #328 Fozzie Bear
I vote for the fro and the dashiki. That would be epic.
Stripped to the waist, camo pants, nerf gun, Rambo thingie tied on his forehead.
“Now you will listen to me!”
| 331 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:46:26pm |
re: #324 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Just a little over a hundred thousand posts before we hit 9 million.
Six million. Boob pun threads don’t count.
| 332 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:46:37pm |
| 333 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:46:50pm |
| 334 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Tue, Jan 25, 2011 4:47:28pm |
re: #329 lostlakehiker
Again: Evidence was thrown out because it was tainted. Probability has nothing to do with it.
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