Egypt Cuts All Internet Connections

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In an unprecedented move, Egypt has shut down all international Internet connections.

Confirming what a few have reported this evening: in an action unprecedented in Internet history, the Egyptian government appears to have ordered service providers to shut down all international connections to the Internet. Critical European-Asian fiber-optic routes through Egypt appear to be unaffected for now. But every Egyptian provider, every business, bank, Internet cafe, website, school, embassy, and government office that relied on the big four Egyptian ISPs for their Internet connectivity is now cut off from the rest of the world. Link Egypt, Vodafone/Raya, Telecom Egypt, Etisalat Misr, and all their customers and partners are, for the moment, off the air.

At 22:34 UTC (00:34am local time), Renesys observed the virtually simultaneous withdrawal of all routes to Egyptian networks in the Internet’s global routing table. Approximately 3,500 individual BGP routes were withdrawn, leaving no valid paths by which the rest of the world could continue to exchange Internet traffic with Egypt’s service providers. Virtually all of Egypt’s Internet addresses are now unreachable, worldwide.

This is a completely different situation from the modest Internet manipulation that took place in Tunisia, where specific routes were blocked, or Iran, where the Internet stayed up in a rate-limited form designed to make Internet connectivity painfully slow. The Egyptian government’s actions tonight have essentially wiped their country from the global map.

What happens when you disconnect a modern economy and 80,000,000 people from the Internet? What will happen tomorrow, on the streets and in the credit markets? This has never happened before, and the unknowns are piling up. We will continue to dig into the event, and will update this story as we learn more. As Friday dawns in Cairo under this unprecedented communications blackout, keep the Egyptian people in your thoughts.

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833 comments
1 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:07:53pm

Gosh.

2 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:08:20pm

Censorship is often the last refuge of a regime in the very act of falling.

3 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:11:01pm

Egypt blocks Internet, deploys special force ahead of mass rallies

Update at 7:35 p.m. ET: Egypt's government has disrupted Internet service and deployed an elite special operations counterterrorism force head of mass anti-government rallies Friday, The Associated Press is reporting.

4 Kruk  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:11:39pm

re: #2 Rightwingconspirator

Censorship is often the last refuge of a regime in the very act of falling.

I hope so, and this is not the prelude to some horribly ugly crackdown they don't want the world to know about.

5 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:11:39pm

Well, it appears that they have learned from Iran, who learned from China.

Not. Good.

6 austin_blue  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:11:42pm

No duh. Of course they did. This is what dictatorships *do*, even if we support them.

Our allies, the Egyptians.

Gah.

7 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:14:33pm

re: #6 austin_blue

The "evil of two lessers" is going to win this one.

I actually feel guilty that I am concerned about the antiquities.

They may be wonders of the world, but anyone who thinks the Pyramids could not be flattened in a few days with modern equipment, is in the Nile.

8 BryanS  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:16:10pm

How long can Mubarak hold out, I wonder. Friday prayers too coming up. We can ill afford Egypt going the wrong way in this.

9 Kefirah  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:16:37pm

to those who would celebrate that mubarak is cracking down on the muslim brotherhood - do not eat the fruit of the political poisonous tree. fight the muslim brotherhood on its own merits [and there are plenty of reasons to dislike the muslim brotherhood]. but don't take joy in an oppressive regime acting out of survivalist fear. arresting the leaders of the muslim brotherhood NOW while you're gassing civilians and dragging reporters out into the desert to be beaten by police just justifies their otherwise unjustified positions.

democracy must be for all people.

[this message brought to you by a bit of resentment directed at anonymous online compatriots. no one here. no lizards. promise.]

10 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:18:34pm

Word is the Egyptian stock market tanked and was shutdown early yesterday. Lots of businessmen transferring their money out of the country.

11 Kefirah  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:19:21pm

kragar: word out of yemen is that the people are hitting the pavement there, too.

12 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:20:03pm

re: #11 Kefirah

kragar: word out of yemen is that the people are hitting the pavement there, too.

I hate to ask this, but by hitting the pavement, do you mean walking, or do you mean defenestration?

13 DaddyLawBucks  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:20:25pm

I think most of the posts seem to agree that (1) lets hope there is not a bloodbath at dawn and
(2) that the new government is not violently radical against the US or Israel. Perhaps there will be
an amazing outcome and a somewhat representative force will take over.

14 Kefirah  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:21:15pm

re: #12 EmmmieG

walking, but it's probably good that you asked. president saleh isn't known for being charitable to anyone but his family [who occupy quite a few governmental posts].

15 freetoken  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:22:16pm

Trying to access any of the gov.eg websites found via a simple google search (such as that for National Archives) are coming up blank because the Cox servers can't find the addresses. Anybody else have better luck at accessing a .eg site?

16 BryanS  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:22:35pm

re: #10 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Word is the Egyptian stock market tanked and was shutdown early yesterday. Lots of businessmen transferring their money out of the country.

Their web site still seems to be working. Served by the only group that seems to have not had their routes pulled form the internet in Egypt:

[Link: www.renesys.com...]

One of the very few exceptions to this block has been Noor Group (AS20928), which still has 83 out of 83 live routes to its Egyptian customers, with inbound transit from Telecom Italia as usual. Why was Noor Group apparently unaffected by the countrywide takedown order? Unknown at this point, but we observe that the Egyptian Stock Exchange (www.egyptse.com) is still alive at a Noor address.


Hmmm. AS20928. Wonder if any botnets might be interested in looking up their routes some. Not encouraging anything...just sayin'

17 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:22:41pm

In Yemen, tens of thousands march against president

I saw many, many people today, in the thousands," said Ahmed Arman, a human rights lawyer in the capital, Sana. "There were four demonstrations and they were organized by the opposition. The majority of the demonstrators were young people, but there were others there as well. They're calling for political change, a complete reform of the political system."

The demonstrations unfolded as the region brimmed with anger and frustration that have sparked protests against authoritarian rulers in Tunisia and Egypt. Some Yemeni protesters joked that Saleh should "go the way" of former Tunisian President Zine el Abidine ben Ali, who fled his country Jan. 14 after a popular uprising.

"I helped the students in organizing sit-ins after the Tunisian revolt," Tawakul Karman, a Yemeni activist recently released from jail after organizing demonstrations, told The Times. "There have been daily protests in Sana. I was arrested for a day because of the demonstrations and let out yesterday. The student protests will for sure continue."

18 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:23:08pm

Arabist

A friend in Cairo: "The government can take away my freedom, but if they take away my internet porn, they're going down."
19 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:23:30pm

re: #16 BryanS

Their web site still seems to be working. Served by the only group that seems to have not had their routes pulled form the internet in Egypt:

[Link: www.renesys.com...]


Hmmm. AS20928. Wonder if any botnets might be interested in looking up their routes some. Not encouraging anything...just sayin'

Depends on whether they're hosted inside Egypt. A lot of them are down right now.

20 Kefirah  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:23:46pm

for those interested in the yemen situation: here.

i know people are calling tunisian protests the "jasmine revolution," but it's probably more appropriate to refer to it as the "straw + camel's back revolution." or the "domino revolution."

or the "match to gasoline" revolution.

21 Kruk  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:25:20pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

Arabist

Heh. Somehow I don't see Mel Gibson putting that one as dramatically as he did in Braveheart.

22 Obdicut  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:25:58pm

re: #9 Kefirah

to those who would celebrate that mubarak is cracking down on the muslim brotherhood - do not eat the fruit of the political poisonous tree. fight the muslim brotherhood on its own merits [and there are plenty of reasons to dislike the muslim brotherhood]. but don't take joy in an oppressive regime acting out of survivalist fear. arresting the leaders of the muslim brotherhood NOW while you're gassing civilians and dragging reporters out into the desert to be beaten by police just justifies their otherwise unjustified positions.

democracy must be for all people.

[this message brought to you by a bit of resentment directed at anonymous online compatriots. no one here. no lizards. promise.]

Well and bravely said.

23 BryanS  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:26:06pm

re: #19 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Depends on whether they're hosted inside Egypt. A lot of them are down right now.

The link I posted shows the dramatic withdrawal of routes in Egypt. One company seems to have been spared, also happens to host the stock market. Not that they'll want to open on Monday.

24 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:26:34pm

It would be interesting to know what they want.

Justice in their justice system?

More financial opportunity?

A government system more in line with Islam?

A more conservative society (read: fewer rights for women.)

Of course, what they want and what they get might not be the same.

25 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:28:59pm

Prayers for the people of Egypt, today.
I hope that tomorrow is a better day for them.
And that they stay safe.

26 prairiefire  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:29:02pm

Praying for protection and strength for the oppressed. I think this is why Sec. Clinton looked so tired on Tuesday night. I'm hoping it doesn't get really bad.

27 Kefirah  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:29:27pm

re: #22 Obdicut

thank you. y'all are a bright, level.headed bunch, and it's a pleasure to debate + discuss here.

28 simoom  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:30:43pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

Arabist

A friend in Cairo: "The government can take away my freedom, but if they take away my internet porn, they're going down."

That tweet may be tongue-in-cheek, but there may be some truth as well. If you take a youthful population, where constant use of the internet has been interwoven into the lives of the more affluent, and take away their access... well, you've now gone and disrupted their daily routines, and likely made a heck of a lot of folks who weren't participating in the protests extremely frustrated and angry...

29 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:32:16pm

re: #27 Kefirah

Your posts are very informative.
I hope you will continue to participate.
I like the learning a lot part of LGF!

30 Tigger2005  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:33:47pm

I'm not too worried about anything at the moment.

3 Hurricanes will do that to you.

4 oz of rum per Hurricane.

I only wish I was at Pat O's in the French Quarter right now.

31 Tigger2005  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:35:46pm

Of course. Saudi Arabia could be next! Wheeeeee!!

May you live in interesting times.

32 BryanS  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:36:10pm

Hmmm...also right on the heals of Mohamed El Baradei showing up/planning to participate in Friday protests as well:

[Link: english.aljazeera.net...]

33 BryanS  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:37:50pm

Looks like wikileaks plans on adding fuel to the fire:

RT @wikileaks: We will soon release numerous cables on Egypt #wikileaks #jan25 #egypt

34 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:37:54pm

re: #31 Tigger2005

My favorite ancient Chinese curse!
We do in fact, live in interesting times!

Once upon a time, a revolution in a far off country took WEEKS to hear about.
Now, it's minutes.
My, how the world has changed.
And, yes, I feel old.

35 Kefirah  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:39:18pm

apparently the internet in egypt went down almost immediately after this video was posted.

the video is graphic - not "neda" graphic from the green revolution, but that's not what is important.

what's important is the humanity. and the fact that mubarak does NOT want this publicized.

36 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:39:44pm

re: #28 simoom

That tweet may be tongue-in-cheek, but there may be some truth as well. If you take a youthful population, where constant use of the internet has been interwoven into the lives of the more affluent, and take away their access... well, you've now gone and disrupted their daily routines, and likely made a heck of a lot of folks who weren't participating in the protests extremely frustrated and angry...

Right, they may have just created a ton more protestors

37 Obdicut  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:41:02pm

re: #35 Kefirah

I saw that. I saw one man immediately run to help the fallen. Then a crowd of men and women, helping him at the risk of their lives.

Bravery still gets to me.

38 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:41:11pm

And, if you live in a free, democratic society and have been complaining, lately.
Think about what you do have.
HONESTLY.
You could live in Egypt, Iran, Pakistan, or worse.
And all we seem to do is complain.
We should be thankful.

39 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:41:47pm

No end in sight for Egypt uprising

Internet and mobile phone text messaging services appeared to be partially disabled, working only sporadically across the country. The government has denied disrupting communications networks that demonstrators have used to organise protests.

Internet and text messaging services flickered on and off through the night. US-based Internet monitoring firm Renesys said Egypt's web access was totally shut down early on Friday, an event it called "unprecedented in internet history".

"Renesys observed the virtually simultaneous withdrawal of all routes to Egyptian networks in the internet's global routing table," it said. "The Egyptian government's actions tonight have essentially wiped their country from the global map."

A page on Facebook listed more than 30 mosques and churches where protesters were expected to gather.

"Egypt's Muslims and Christians will go out to fight against corruption, unemployment and oppression and absence of freedom," the page said, adding more than 70,000 had signed up online.

40 Kefirah  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:42:02pm

re: #38 Floral Giraffe

amen, amen, amen. from your lips to g-d's ears.

re: #37 Obdicut

bravery touches you because you are a good person.

41 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:43:09pm
42 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:43:35pm

And all this began with one man in Tunisia setting himself on fire to protest his own unfair treatment.

43 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:44:44pm

re: #24 EmmmieG

It would be interesting to know what they want.

Justice in their justice system?

More financial opportunity?

A government system more in line with Islam?

A more conservative society (read: fewer rights for women.)

Of course, what they want and what they get might not be the same.

Probably the same thing most people everywhere want: A job, food on the table, a roof over their heads, a decent education & better future for their kids, fair legal trials, freedom of speech, a chance to have a say in the running of their country, etc.

44 Obdicut  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:45:05pm

re: #39 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

If that religious unity is for real, and can last, that is a great hope.

45 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:45:06pm

re: #42 EmmmieG

It's so amazing. Can you even consider setting yourself on fire?
I can not. But maybe if driven by the circumstances...

46 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:45:45pm

re: #42 EmmmieG

Mildly OT, but most of my friends are not connected to foreign events, so I usually use my FB to put up blurbs of news. This is the most recent event to go up.

47 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:49:40pm

re: #45 Floral Giraffe

It's so amazing. Can you even consider setting yourself on fire?
I can not. But maybe if driven by the circumstances...

I would never consider suicide, either, but people do it.

I guess if you were so angry and you felt you had no other options.

48 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:51:07pm

re: #43 CuriousLurker

Probably the same thing most people everywhere want: A job, food on the table, a roof over their heads, a decent education & better future for their kids, .

Those other things,

fair legal trials, freedom of speech, a chance to have a say in the running of their country, etc


are not really in most people's minds unless they are stymied in their attempts to get the first things. Then suddenly they become activists. That's why I am always so cynical of any positive outcome for these kinds of popular uprisings. Sometimes they work out (US, Orange Revolution) But often they just introduce a new band of despots. I hope esp. hard Egypt's people can achieve something positive, not just for them. They are so big, rich, powerful, and influential in that region, they could take the whole region with them for good or ill and effect the whole world's economy.

49 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:51:37pm

re: #37 Obdicut

I saw that. I saw one man immediately run to help the fallen. Then a crowd of men and women, helping him at the risk of their lives.

Bravery still gets to me.

I noticed that too.
He was shot, and immediately people were there helping him. With whoever who did the shooting still there with a gun, must have been. Wow.

50 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:52:01pm

re: #44 Obdicut

If that religious unity is for real, and can last, that is a great hope.

The recent stand by Egyptians to protect the Coptic Christian churches gives me hope that it could be real. kyrie eleison.

51 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:55:15pm

sarahraslan Sarah Raslan
by Feminineroar
Egyptian Christians said they will guard the Muslims from security while they pray tomorrow. United against the government. #Jan25 #Egypt

52 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:55:43pm

Egypt Detains Muslim Brotherhood Leaders Before Rally

Egyptian authorities detained seven senior members of the Muslim Brotherhood, the country’s main opposition group, ahead of nationwide protests planned for today against President Hosni Mubarak.

“The number is likely to rise,” Abdel-Gelil El-Sharnoubi, the Cairo-based editor of the group’s official website, said in a telephone interview, confirming the arrests. “The aim is to frustrate today’s planned protests.” El-Sharnoubi said that other members of the group had also been arrested.

53 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:57:04pm

re: #48 Escaped Hillbilly

Those other things,

are not really in most people's minds unless they are stymied in their attempts to get the first things. Then suddenly they become activists. That's why I am always so cynical of any positive outcome for these kinds of popular uprisings. Sometimes they work out (US, Orange Revolution) But often they just introduce a new band of despots. I hope esp. hard Egypt's people can achieve something positive, not just for them. They are so big, rich, powerful, and influential in that region, they could take the whole region with them for good or ill and effect the whole world's economy.

Yes, well all we can do is hope for the best at this point.

IMO, if Egypt and other countries are ever going to have a successful democracy, it's going to have to be one they shape themselves based on their society's needs, not one transplanted or imposed from outside.

54 BryanS  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:57:22pm

Someone earlier asked what the protesters are demanding...here's translation excerpts of a pamphlet being passed around :

[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]

55 Kefirah  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:58:39pm

re: #51 reine.de.tout

can you get a citation for that claim about coptic christians protecting muslims at prayer? would love to get the word out.

56 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:00:40pm

re: #51 reine.de.tout

Egyptian Christians said they will guard the Muslims from security while they pray

This is important and I mentioned it on Twitter earlier. Friday is the day for congregational prayers & a weekly sermon (around noon).

Even with the internet & cell phones down, information can spread quickly that way from mouth-to-mouth. Fiery sermons could also rile people up... which makes me wonder if that's part of the reason why the authorities are rounding up the MB.

57 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:01:22pm

re: #54 BryanS

Someone earlier asked what the protesters are demanding...here's translation excerpts of a pamphlet being passed around :

[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]

WOW!

58 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:01:25pm

re: #55 Kefirah

can you get a citation for that claim about coptic christians protecting muslims at prayer? would love to get the word out.

No, sorry - I'm on my daughter's twitter account and I've seen the claim made a couple of times, in different words by different folks. That's the best I can do.

59 lostlakehiker  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:01:43pm

re: #4 Kruk

I hope so, and this is not the prelude to some horribly ugly crackdown they don't want the world to know about.

The history of revolution is cloudy. Some succeed, but many fail. We have seen how the regime maintained itself in Iran, for instance.

Everything will ride on where the loyalties of the armed forces lie in a showdown.

60 Kefirah  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:01:43pm

re: #58 reine.de.tout

that'll work. thank you for trying!

61 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:02:49pm

re: #60 Kefirah

that'll work. thank you for trying!

If I can find anything, i'll post it.

62 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:04:10pm

re: #53 CuriousLurker
Truer words...

63 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:04:28pm

samihtoukan Samih Toukan
by zakwanhaj
I lost my internet TEdata connect (egyptian company) although I'm in Jordan.seems they cut the whole backbone #jan25 #egypt

64 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:06:08pm
soundmigration friendly anarchist
by stember
Egyptian central bank taken off line #jan25 #egypt

Apparently, earlier, not ALL service was down, they had service up for the banks, but that's down now, as well.

65 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:07:49pm

ManarKay Manar Khalil
by rqskye
One hundred lawyers have gathered in front of the police station demanding demonstrators to be released. #EGYPT #JAN25

66 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:08:29pm

Well = I think it's absolutely amazing that we can watch world events like this as they are happening. Just amazing.

67 webevintage  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:09:22pm

re: #38 Floral Giraffe

And, if you live in a free, democratic society and have been complaining, lately.
Think about what you do have.
HONESTLY.
You could live in Egypt, Iran, Pakistan, or worse.
And all we seem to do is complain.
We should be thankful.

Louis C. K. refers that as "white people problems".....

"Why should I have to choose a language on the ATM machine!!!"

[Link: comedians.jokes.com...]

68 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:10:06pm

re: #57 Floral Giraffe

WOW!

Excellent source. Positive goals and smart strategy of trying to woo police and military to their cause. Hope this is the tenor of the movement as a whole.

69 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:12:11pm

monaeltahawy Mona Eltahawy
by fizzarahman
Americans who know nothing about #Egypt: protests include all #Egyptians, #Muslim #Christian secular religious. Goal: freedom dignity #Jan25

70 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:13:20pm

re: #67 webevintage

Louis C. K. refers that as "white people problems"...


[Link: comedians.jokes.com...]

I recently saw an ATM that used only a touch screen, no keypad, and it had a braile instruction sign to the side. Oh yeah, it was in a drive through. //???// You can't make this stuff up.

71 DaddyLawBucks  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:15:42pm

Have a good evening all, and lets pray that there is not a bloodbath in Egypt this morning.

72 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:16:03pm

re: #25 Floral Giraffe

Prayers for the people of Egypt, today.
I hope that tomorrow is a better day for them.
And that they stay safe.

The only certain thing is that tomorrow is going to be bloody. The kind of force Mubarak is deploying will do some serious damage to any protesters tomorrow, no matter what the end result is. And no, I don't like that fact at all.


Sorry I'm so late. I got my W-2 for my current job today so when I got home I installed TurboTax and it took a while. I won't be able to finish my taxes till tomorrow, but things are started.

74 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:16:56pm

re: #73 reine.de.tout

Here's something called "TheDailyNewsEgypt".

Stories in English, photos . . .

75 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:18:50pm

re: #72 Dark_Falcon
Done and done with mine. My kid's job killed me. I couldn't claim head of household for the first time in years. As a result of his making $200 too much, I lost over $1000 Federal alone. The tax laws are really complicated. No way I would have wanted to do this year's the way we used to with a paper book and forms.

I think I am agreeing with your assessment re bloodshed in Egypt. Here's hoping it is limited in scope and doesn't succeed in its purpose?

76 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:18:58pm

@mala Danny O'B
by Gail_Fox_Thomas
word from a ham radio user: "wow the egyptian radio waves are packed" #egypt #jan25

77 BryanS  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:21:21pm

Meanwhile, Iranian State news never fails to find a way to blame the JOOS

Israeli min. urges Egypt to use force

78 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:22:47pm

re: #75 Escaped Hillbilly

Done and done with mine. My kid's job killed me. I couldn't claim head of household for the first time in years. As a result of his making $200 too much, I lost over $1000 Federal alone. The tax laws are really complicated. No way I would have wanted to do this year's the way we used to with a paper book and forms.

I think I am agreeing with your assessment re bloodshed in Egypt. Here's hoping it is limited in scope and doesn't succeed in its purpose?

Limited in scope, yes. I don't really want Mubarak unseated, though. I worry that the result of that would be the ascent to power of the Muslim Brotherhood. What I hope is that the protests force concessions from him instead.

79 jaunte  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:23:35pm

Egypt Leaves the Internet

At 22:34 UTC (00:34am local time), Renesys observed the virtually simultaneous withdrawal of all routes to Egyptian networks in the Internet's global routing table. Approximately 3,500 individual BGP routes were withdrawn, leaving no valid paths by which the rest of the world could continue to exchange Internet traffic with Egypt's service providers. Virtually all of Egypt's Internet addresses are now unreachable, worldwide.

This is a completely different situation from the modest Internet manipulation that took place in Tunisia, where specific routes were blocked, or Iran, where the Internet stayed up in a rate-limited form designed to make Internet connectivity painfully slow. The Egyptian government's actions tonight have essentially wiped their country from the global map.

What happens when you disconnect a modern economy and 80,000,000 people from the Internet? What will happen tomorrow, on the streets and in the credit markets? This has never happened before, and the unknowns are piling up. We will continue to dig into the event, and will update this story as we learn more. As Friday dawns in Cairo under this unprecedented communications blackout, keep the Egyptian people in your thoughts.
[Link: www.renesys.com...]

80 BryanS  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:24:23pm

re: #78 Dark_Falcon

Limited in scope, yes. I don't really want Mubarak unseated, though. I worry that the result of that would be the ascent to power of the Muslim Brotherhood. What I hope is that the protests force concessions from him instead.

That would be the end of him. Once people think protesting works, they will keep protesting till they get what they want.

81 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:24:35pm

re: #76 CuriousLurker

Interesting.

@mala Danny O'B
by Gail_Fox_Thomas
word from a ham radio user: "wow the egyptian radio waves are packed" #egypt #jan25

@JohnSkylar John Skylar
Know someone in #Egypt w/ a shortwave radio? they can use it to get email access. [Link: www.radiobanter.com...]

82 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:25:17pm

Well - I wish I could stay up awhile and watch this play out. I'll have to catch up tomorrow. good night, all.

83 jaerik  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:25:24pm

Meanwhile, CNN is running an interview with the Kardashian sisters about Twitter. FoxNews is running Hannity commiserating with Juan Williams about racism. (Yes, really.) And Maddow on MSNBC is making fun of Republicans. Everyone else is still talking about Sarah Palin's stupid Sputnik comment.

Why is no one covering this? This appears to be potentially as big as the Iranian protests that got wall to wall coverage before. We even have the same "watch the police shoot a protester" shock video. Is it because the Egyptian government is buddies with our own?

84 jaunte  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:25:33pm

Ha! I guess I should read the thread before posting...

85 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:25:48pm

re: #80 BryanS

That would be the end of him. Once people think protesting works, they will keep protesting till they get what they want.

if that is true, then i would have to say I would reluctantly want the protesters beaten down and defeated. Because if they get rid of Mubarak, I fear the worst.

86 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:25:52pm

re: #78 Dark_Falcon
Yes, I should have been clearer. I meant, that they would not succeed in silencing opposition and putting down protests. I don't know the likelihood of a better government if Mbarik is unseated. But they are at least asking for the right things.

87 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:26:22pm

re: #84 jaunte

Ha! I guess I should read the thread before posting...

naw, sometimes it's good to repeat something, for those who missed it earlier.

I can't tear myself away, and I'm dead tired.

88 BryanS  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:27:36pm

re: #83 jaerik

Meanwhile, CNN is running an interview with the Kardashian sisters about Twitter. FoxNews is running Hannity commiserating with Juan Williams about racism. (Yes, really.) And Maddow on MSNBC is making fun of Republicans. Everyone else is still talking about Sarah Palin's stupid Sputnik comment.

Why is no one covering this? This appears to be potentially as big as the Iranian protests that got wall to wall coverage before. We even have the same "watch the police shoot a protester" shock video. Is it because the Egyptian government is buddies with our own?

They were slow to start on the Iranian thing too.

89 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:27:44pm

re: #72 Dark_Falcon

Prayers for all of the people in Egypt.
I wish nothing more than the best for them, and they get to decide what is best. I hope for a minimum loss of life.

90 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:28:47pm

re: #83 jaerik

Meanwhile, CNN is running an interview with the Kardashian sisters about Twitter. FoxNews is running Hannity commiserating with Juan Williams about racism. (Yes, really.) And Maddow on MSNBC is making fun of Republicans. Everyone else is still talking about Sarah Palin's stupid Sputnik comment.

Why is no one covering this? This appears to be potentially as big as the Iranian protests that got wall to wall coverage before. We even have the same "watch the police shoot a protester" shock video. Is it because the Egyptian government is buddies with our own?

Stunning, isn't it, the attention that's NOT being paid to this?

Although I saw a tweet earlier from an Egyptian blogger - they're not very happy with Hilary or Biden. Hilary apparently said something about women in Egypt having no freedom, and Biden claimed Mubarek was no dictator and should be left alone, or something (I'm trying to recall this from memory).

91 sattv4u2  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:29:26pm

So far no Egyptian TV channels that are broadcast via satellite are off the air (I haven't yet checked all on this list, but the ones I have are still on)
[Link: www.lyngsat.com...]

92 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:29:29pm

re: #88 BryanS

They were slow to start on the Iranian thing too.

we had much better coverage of Iran here at LGF, than the networks had.

93 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:29:57pm

re: #83 jaerik

Meanwhile, CNN is running an interview with the Kardashian sisters about Twitter. FoxNews is running Hannity commiserating with Juan Williams about racism. (Yes, really.) And Maddow on MSNBC is making fun of Republicans. Everyone else is still talking about Sarah Palin's stupid Sputnik comment.

Why is no one covering this? This appears to be potentially as big as the Iranian protests that got wall to wall coverage before. We even have the same "watch the police shoot a protester" shock video. Is it because the Egyptian government is buddies with our own?

The Kardashian sisters?
Like they are relevant.
OMG.
WAY too much TV time.

94 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:30:07pm

re: #91 sattv4u2

So far no Egyptian TV channels that are broadcast via satellite are off the air (I haven't yet checked all on this list, but the ones I have are still on)
[Link: www.lyngsat.com...]

whoa!

95 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:30:19pm

re: #92 reine.de.tout

we had much better coverage of Iran here at LGF, than the networks had.

I wasn't here for that. Sorry I missed it.

96 BryanS  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:30:39pm

re: #85 Dark_Falcon

if that is true, then i would have to say I would reluctantly want the protesters beaten down and defeated. Because if they get rid of Mubarak, I fear the worst.

I understand the fear of that outcome. Mubarak is the SOB we know, and it could be a whole lot worse. Egypt's position over the Suez canal, and peace with Israel make it an indispensable ally (and the reason we send so much of our aid there).

97 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:30:51pm

re: #91 sattv4u2

So far no Egyptian TV channels that are broadcast via satellite are off the air (I haven't yet checked all on this list, but the ones I have are still on)
[Link: www.lyngsat.com...]

which one should I choose?

98 sattv4u2  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:31:06pm

re: #94 reine.de.tout

whoa!

Don't get too excited

So far I have seen nothing "live" and I don't know whats being said, but they are broadcasting

99 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:31:47pm

re: #87 reine.de.tout

OK, I'll go first.
I miss the Gaza Rooster.
And, no, I don't wanna hear how tasty he was.
This reminds me of that week.

100 RadicalModerate  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:31:54pm

re: #54 BryanS

Someone earlier asked what the protesters are demanding...here's translation excerpts of a pamphlet being passed around :

[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]

The comments to that article are interesting in that almost every one of them want the pamphlet translation taken down as it was against the wishes of the protestors to have the information published on the internet.

As for the protests themselves, the parallels to the Iranian Revolution in 1978 are far too similar in nature for my comfort level. About the only difference I see right now is that the main force behind the protests is the innocuous-sounding "Muslim Brotherhood" (who are a structured organization of fundamentalist jihadists) versus the near-dictatorial body that Khomeni and his deputy clerics ran Iran with. The current Egyptian government (like its Iranian predecesors) is pretty much a secular dictatorship with little-to-no political freedom for opposition groups.

101 sattv4u2  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:31:56pm

re: #97 reine.de.tout

which one should I choose?

Doesn't matter
The links only get you to their websites (not live streaming or the channel itself)

102 freetoken  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:32:17pm

re: #54 BryanS

I just happen to be in the middle of watching the 3 hour Benjamin Franklin biography (that was made not too long ago), right up to where the Revolutionary war is about to begin and Benjamin is arguing with his son (the governor of NJ.)

Then, I come here and read your link.

I'd like to believe the protestors in Egypt today will be guided by as wise a statesman as the colonists were by Franklin, but that is I suppose an empty hope. Modern day revolutions happen so quickly and I think what we are seeing in Egypt is still unpredictable.

103 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:32:46pm

Amazing Cats' Transformations (26 pics)

This is a collection of cats found on the streets, in kennels where they were waiting to be euthanized, vivariums and shelters. Love and patience can make real miracles, turning a street cat into a beautiful, happy and true pet friend.


G'nite, y'all

104 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:33:01pm

OT but closing a topic from last night:
Well if you haven't already heard elsewhere,they've reopened Dugway Proving Ground having relocated the mislabeled/misplace nerve agent vial that caused the lockdown. This is a situation people will see as either "half-full" or "half-empty." Either the vial shouldn't be able to be misplace and probably shouldn't be there in the first place. Or the system worked, no one was put in danger, and we know they will take appropriate steps to save lives over keeping secrets if worse comes to worse.

105 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:33:06pm

This doesn't sound good:

IsiRoca Isi Roca
SOS: Police are setting cars in streets on fire. No one knows why. Everyone sure there'll be a massacre tmr #Egypt (via @Heba_S09)

106 BryanS  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:33:36pm

re: #98 sattv4u2

Don't get too excited

So far I have seen nothing "live" and I don't know whats being said, but they are broadcasting

They are reporting peace breaking out across the country, no doubt.

107 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:35:39pm

re: #85 Dark_Falcon

if that is true, then i would have to say I would reluctantly want the protesters beaten down and defeated. Because if they get rid of Mubarak, I fear the worst.

I hate to down-ding you, but I don't even know how to respond to that.

108 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:35:44pm
109 BryanS  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:35:51pm

re: #100 RadicalModerate

The comments to that article are interesting in that almost every one of them want the pamphlet translation taken down as it was against the wishes of the protestors to have the information published on the internet.

As for the protests themselves, the parallels to the Iranian Revolution in 1978 are far too similar in nature for my comfort level. About the only difference I see right now is that the main force behind the protests is the innocuous-sounding "Muslim Brotherhood" (who are a structured organization of fundamentalist jihadists) versus the near-dictatorial body that Khomeni and his deputy clerics ran Iran with. The current Egyptian government (like its Iranian predecesors) is pretty much a secular dictatorship with little-to-no political freedom for opposition groups.

They are only excerpts--I'm sure they left out parts for a reason. I agree about the worrisome 1978 parallels.

110 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:37:40pm

re: #108 reine.de.tout

Something going on now in Yemen?

Crap. And I was going to try to get to bed early tonight.

111 jaunte  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:37:45pm
Penticton traveller caught up in Egyptian unrest

A member of the Okanagan Nation got caught in the thick of a politically charged protest that turned violent while on vacation in Cairo, Egypt this week.

“We witnessed thousands of people pouring in, chanting the slogans and holding their signs and flags,” Travis Kruger told the Penticton Western News. “For what at that time was still supposed to be a peaceful protest, there was an alarming amount of people propped up against the wall getting bandaged up. There was blood draining down the street and people were tending to the wounded.”

Kruger, who resides on the Penticton Indian Reserve, had just crossed off a line on his bucket list after seeing the ancient pyramids in Egypt. Returning to his hostel, he noticed riot police and roads being shut down. Inquiring with a local about what was happening, Kruger was told it was a peaceful protest at Tahrir Square.

112 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:37:55pm

re: #108 reine.de.tout

Something going on now in Yemen?

From that link:

Yemen: Tens of thousands call on president to leave

Demonstrations were led by opposition members and youth activists

Tens of thousands of Yemenis have demonstrated in the capital Sanaa, calling on Ali Abdullah Saleh, president for 30 years, to step down.

This comes after mass protests in Egypt and a popular uprising in Tunisia that ousted its long-time leader.

Yemeni opposition members and youth activists gathered in four parts of the city, including Sanaa University, chanting anti-government slogans.

They also called for economic reforms and an end to corruption.

Yemenis complain of mounting poverty among a growing young population and frustration with a lack of political freedoms.

113 freetoken  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:38:02pm

re: #108 reine.de.tout

Something going on now in Yemen?

From the link:

Yemenis complain of mounting poverty among a growing young population and frustration with a lack of political freedoms.

The population explosion in many of these nations, over the past few decades, has been expected to cause problems. Many young people are coming of age with very little opportunities for them.

114 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:38:23pm

re: #110 CuriousLurker

Crap. And I was going to try to get to bed early tonight.

Me too.
I can't quit.

115 sattv4u2  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:39:01pm

re: #112 reine.de.tout

Demonstrations were led by opposition members and youth activists

heh

116 BryanS  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:40:31pm

re: #102 freetoken

I just happen to be in the middle of watching the 3 hour Benjamin Franklin biography (that was made not too long ago), right up to where the Revolutionary war is about to begin and Benjamin is arguing with his son (the governor of NJ.)

Then, I come here and read your link.

I'd like to believe the protestors in Egypt today will be guided by as wise a statesman as the colonists were by Franklin, but that is I suppose an empty hope. Modern day revolutions happen so quickly and I think what we are seeing in Egypt is still unpredictable.

Mohamed El Baradei could be a decent leader. I'm sure there are others I would never know about--not being form Egypt of course. It is only a hope. I've read murmurings of anti-US chants. And Joe "Foot-in-mouth" Biden went onto PBS News Hour to say Mubarak wasn't a dictator and should not step down.

117 BryanS  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:41:35pm

re: #105 reine.de.tout

This doesn't sound good:

There's a lot of rumor going around as well, but no doubt some scary things seem to be happening.

118 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:41:51pm

@weddady weddady
I CONFIRM NOOR DSL IS WORKING GOV CAN'T TAKE IT DOWN COZ THE STOCK MARKET & BANKS ARE CONNECTED TO IT #Jan25
1 hour ago via Tweetie for Mac

@weddady weddady
NOOR DSL IS SMALLEST ISP IN #EGYPT GOV MOVED STOCK MARKET & BANKS TO IT BUT NOW ACTIVISTS WILL USE IT TOO #JAN25
1 hour ago via Tweetie for Mac

119 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:41:57pm

re: #110 CuriousLurker

Crap. And I was going to try to get to bed early tonight.

Luckily, you & I can still go to bed tonight, in safety. What is happening in Egypt will happen, whether we watch, or not. Be well.

120 freetoken  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:42:06pm

re: #116 BryanS

And Joe "Foot-in-mouth" Biden went onto PBS News Hour to say Mubarak wasn't a dictator and should not step down.


Mubarka is our guy. We've bought and paid for him (many times over...) and so we're going to support him.

121 jaunte  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:42:22pm

re: #115 sattv4u2

This is about Egypt, but the statistic is surprising:

To lobby support, the activists used Twitter and Facebook, targeting above all the 60 percent of Egypt’s 80 million people who are under the age of 25.
122 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:42:35pm

re: #116 BryanS

Mohamed El Baradei could be a decent leader. I'm sure there are others I would never know about--not being form Egypt of course. It is only a hope. I've read murmurings of anti-US chants. And Joe "Foot-in-mouth" Biden went onto PBS News Hour to say Mubarak wasn't a dictator and should not step down.

Yes, and there were some angry tweets coming from Egypt about that. And some not-so-nice epithets thrown at Biden.

Well, I really need some sleep.
Seriously, THIS time I'm really gone.
See ya'll tomorrow.

123 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:42:59pm

re: #119 Floral Giraffe

Luckily, you & I can still go to bed tonight, in safety. What is happening in Egypt will happen, whether we watch, or not. Be well.

QFT. You be well too.

124 BryanS  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:43:00pm

re: #108 reine.de.tout

Something going on now in Yemen?

Yeah...yet another pro West dictator . Now if only anti-West dictators in the ME would fail.

125 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:43:03pm

re: #107 CuriousLurker

I hate to down-ding you, but I don't even know how to respond to that.

That's fair, down-ding me. It's not a nice thing to say, I know. But my first concern is America's interests, not Egypt's. And even there, I don't think any government is going to be able to contain the Muslim Brotherhood without a massive security apparatus. I fear that no transitional government is going to be able to hold the line.

126 jaerik  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:43:04pm

The Muslim Brotherhood's role in this is interesting. They were definitely not a part of the protests until recently, and only threw in their lot once they had little choice. Until today, they had actually been refusing to cooperate because they wanted the "opposition" limelight for themselves.

Evidently many young Egyptians, who started this whole thing, see them as just another part of the problem. A dog and pony show the Egyptian government holds up as a scary alternative to keep themselves in power, but who are all just in bed together, playing the same game.

127 BryanS  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:44:43pm

re: #115 sattv4u2


Demonstrations were led by opposition members and youth activists

heh

"Youth activists" lead the Iranian revolution too.

128 BryanS  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:46:27pm

re: #120 freetoken

Mubarka is our guy. We've bought and paid for him (many times over...) and so we're going to support him.

It sucks that's the case, but yeah, that explains Biden's public statements of support.

129 RadicalModerate  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:46:32pm

re: #109 BryanS

They are only excerpts--I'm sure they left out parts for a reason. I agree about the worrisome 1978 parallels.

One thing that annoys me about Egypt's uprising is that it really could have been avoided if President Mubarak had gone through with political reforms in 2005 when he announced "open elections" followed by limiting who could run in said elections, then engaging in heavy vote rigging to ensure his re-election. It is likely that the 2005 elections would have formed a coalition government, which would have at least quelled the level of unrest among the Egyptian citizenry.

130 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:47:00pm

re: #125 Dark_Falcon

That's fair, down-ding me. It's not a nice thing to say, I know. But my first concern is America's interests, not Egypt's. And even there, I don't think any government is going to be able to contain the Muslim Brotherhood without a massive security apparatus. I fear that no transitional government is going to be able to hold the line.

Maybe not. But if the masses decide they don't like them, then they can certainly run them out of town on a rail.

131 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:47:43pm

I'm back.

What happened while I was gone?

How is everyone?

132 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:49:24pm

re: #127 BryanS

"Youth activists" lead the Iranian revolution too.

They also took the brunt of the casualties.

133 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:51:35pm

re: #105 reine.de.tout

This doesn't sound good:

What is it with the 'setting cars on fire' thing?

134 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:51:59pm

re: #130 CuriousLurker

Maybe not. But if the masses decide they don't like them, then they can certainly run them out of town on a rail.

Not true. The MB already has an underground organization. They would react to mass opposition with bombings, gun attacks and assassinations. It takes dedicated professionals to cut an organization like that back. If its just ordinary people, the terror org will scare them into submission over time.

135 sattv4u2  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:52:28pm

re: #133 ggt

What is it with the 'setting cars on fire' thing?

It's easier than setting a pyramid or camel on fire!
/

136 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:53:22pm

re: #130 CuriousLurker

Maybe not. But if the masses decide they don't like them, then they can certainly run them out of town on a rail.

I don't know. You're sounding a bit naive. Once chaos gets a toehold, countries fall. It's citizenry can almost never mount the kind of united opposition against a fractious opponent as it can against a more organized and established one. Look to places like Somalia for how hard it is to restore peace once a country is broken. I hope this will not be the case. But I can see a real possibility of either the Muslim Brotherhood or another group of local thugs taking up power. They will either move the country hard toward fundamentalism, or fracture its unity resulting in years of chaos.

137 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:54:36pm

re: #135 sattv4u2

It's easier than setting a pyramid or camel on fire!
/


Flaming camels would be a great name for a band...I'm thinking Indie Rock?

138 jaerik  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:55:35pm

From what I can tell, there haven't been a whole lot of "allahu akbars" going around these demonstrations so far. The movement doesn't appear to be religious in nature, and from what I can tell, no one is proposing any Khomenei-like figure as an alternative.

The Muslim Brotherhood is only now joining in, and it seems only because they grudgingly can't be seen as left out of the largest anti-establishment demonstration in recent memory. They seem caught off-guard.

The trick will be making sure the Brotherhood can't co-opt the message, but unlike 1978, they certainly don't seem to be the catalyst here. I may be wrong.

139 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:55:49pm

re: #134 Dark_Falcon

Not true. The MB already has an underground organization. They would react to mass opposition with bombings, gun attacks and assassinations. It takes dedicated professionals to cut an organization like that back. If its just ordinary people, the terror org will scare them into submission over time.

So the people could conceivably take a dictator & his government, but not the MB because they're so organized? If that's true, then why hasn't the MB taken down Mubarak?

140 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:56:02pm

re: #135 sattv4u2

It's easier than setting a pyramid or camel on fire!
/

Remember the protests in France --they all set cars on fire. So, now in Egypt, the police are doing it?

141 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:57:32pm

re: #140 ggt

Remember the protests in France --they all set cars on fire. So, now in Egypt, the police are doing it?


Maybe they intended on claiming protestors did it?

142 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:57:47pm

re: #139 CuriousLurker

So the people could conceivably take a dictator & his government, but not the MB because they're so organized? If that's true, then why hasn't the MB taken down Mubarak?

It would be difficult for a population in which the majority of the citizens are 25 and under and uneducated to do anything but follow.

143 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:58:35pm

re: #136 Escaped Hillbilly

I don't know. You're sounding a bit naive. Once chaos gets a toehold, countries fall. It's citizenry can almost never mount the kind of united opposition against a fractious opponent as it can against a more organized and established one. Look to places like Somalia for how hard it is to restore peace once a country is broken. I hope this will not be the case. But I can see a real possibility of either the Muslim Brotherhood or another group of local thugs taking up power. They will either move the country hard toward fundamentalism, or fracture its unity resulting in years of chaos.

Maybe so, but I'd rather be naive and wish them freedom & a chance at democracy than be cynical and wish them to be beaten down & defeated by a dictator so I don't have to feel anxious.

144 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:58:45pm

re: #136 Escaped Hillbilly
Since Walter isn't here to do it, I'll correct myself. It's should have been its. Got it. Sorry.

145 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:59:43pm

re: #141 Escaped Hillbilly

Maybe they intended on claiming protestors did it?

car burning think must be a cultural meme. wish I knew the history/meaning.

146 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 9:59:54pm

re: #142 ggt

It would be difficult for a population in which the majority of the citizens are 25 and under and uneducated to do anything but follow.

Okay, so who are that following right now?

147 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:00:09pm

re: #143 CuriousLurker
Yes of course, no argument there. But I can see what he was saying. I think he meant "if". But not otherwise. That's how I took it.

148 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:00:22pm

re: #146 CuriousLurker

Okay, so who are that following right now?

Good question!

149 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:01:59pm

re: #144 Escaped Hillbilly

Since Walter isn't here to do it, I'll correct myself. It's should have been its. Got it. Sorry.

What the fuck does that mean? I rarely go around here hall monitoring anything. I'm one of the laziest typists on LGF. What's the problem?

150 sattv4u2  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:02:19pm

re: #140 ggt

re: #141 Escaped Hillbilly

Coudl eb to either block the streets or disperse the crowds

151 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:02:54pm

Arson has been a form of protest for a long time. Cars are just convenient target.

152 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:02:59pm

Alright, Lizards, it's 1:00 a.m. and I have to scram or I'm going to regret it in the morning. G'nite.

153 sattv4u2  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:03:38pm

re: #144 Escaped Hillbilly

Since Walter isn't here to do it, I'll correct myself. It's should have been its. Got it. Sorry.

You got the wrong guy, me'thinks

Walter doesn't do the whole Spell Check Cop thingy

154 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:04:58pm

re: #83 jaerik

Is it because the Egyptian government is buddies with our own?

Yes.

155 jaunte  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:05:53pm

Twitter's #cairo feed is under heavy strain right now.

156 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:06:17pm

re: #149 Walter L. Newton
Walter, I was not dissing you. I was correcting my own error which you certainly did call me on. I think it was like my third or fourth post or some such. I didn't get hurt feelings so what's the matter?

157 freetoken  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:06:27pm

re: #134 Dark_Falcon

Here's a position counter to yours:

Don't Fear Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood


The secretive Islamic opposition group has long renounced violence and may be the most reasonable option. Bruce Riedel on why Obama shouldn't panic—and should let Egyptians decide their fate.

[...]

158 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:06:33pm

re: #139 CuriousLurker

So the people could conceivably take a dictator & his government, but not the MB because they're so organized? If that's true, then why hasn't the MB taken down Mubarak?

Good questions. They issue is the MB's underground organization. Official security agencies have a lot of power, but by the same token their Command, Control and Communications (C3) centers are visible and can be targeted by protesters. Further, official organizations generally cannot survive being repulsed by protests; They tend to lose cohesion rapidly after that unless reinforced. By contrast, The Muslim Brotherhoods organization is hidden is such a way as a protest movement cannot target it effectively. Moreover, not being the actual government, their morale is better able to survive setbacks. Third, and most important, Radical Islamists believe that they are on a mission from God. And that belief gives them great resolve, much greater than that of a hired gun (which is what most dictator's security people really are). Their hard core adherents won't quit, they must be hunted down and either imprisoned or killed. And that is almost impossible to do without a proper organization.

159 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:07:25pm

re: #153 sattv4u2

No not spell check. I had mis-stated something cause of a misplaced apostrophe or something and we had an almost disagreement that wasn't. Geez. It was not a swipe at him or anything.

160 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:08:35pm

re: #157 freetoken

Here's a position counter to yours:

Don't Fear Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood

I'm not willing to run such risks. Any Islamist group is a danger in my eyes, and must be opposed.

161 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:09:40pm

re: #156 Escaped Hillbilly

Walter, I was not dissing you. I was correcting my own error which you certainly did call me on. I think it was like my third or fourth post or some such. I didn't get hurt feelings so what's the matter?

If I did that to you once, I didn't realize that, I'm sorry. You must have a really good memory. It just seemed that your comment was out of left field because of all the Mr. Crankypants things I do on LGF, correcting grammar is not one of my specialities. Sorry for my snipe.

(you must have fucking deserved my spelling correction :)

162 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:09:59pm

re: #160 Dark_Falcon

I'm not willing to run such risks. Any Islamist group is a danger in my eyes, and must be opposed.

Stress on "Islamist".

It is important to really distinquish between the Whackos and the regular folks. Rhetoric being what it is . . .

163 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:11:18pm

re: #161 Walter L. Newton
Actually I have terrible memory and have already forgotten what we were talking about. Sometimes my typing is faster than my brain. Darn I have to go. I have a stupid class to complete. Later. (And yes, I did deserve it.)

164 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:11:32pm

re: #162 ggt

Stress on "Islamist".

It is important to really distinquish between the Whackos and the regular folks. Rhetoric being what it is . . .

True, and thanks for pointing that out.

165 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:12:31pm

re: #164 Dark_Falcon

True, and thanks for pointing that out.

Always glad to be of service.

166 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:12:37pm

re: #163 Escaped Hillbilly

Actually I have terrible memory and have already forgotten what we were talking about. Sometimes my typing is faster than my brain. Darn I have to go. I have a stupid class to complete. Later. (And yes, I did deserve it.)

The last part was sarcastic humor... stop agreeing with me, it runs the joke :)

167 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:13:11pm

re: #166 Walter L. Newton

The last part was sarcastic humor... stop agreeing with me, it runs the joke :)

??? teehee :)

168 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:14:19pm

I was just paying bills on-line and wondering how much my life would be disrupted if the internet was shut-down, even for a day.

How much money would be lost system-wide?

How much is this protest costing Egypt?

169 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:17:23pm

I'm out for the night.
Prayers for the Egyptians, and their progress towards democracy,
IF that is where they choose to go.

170 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:17:39pm

Egypt unrest rages

Egyptian demonstrators fought security forces into the early hours of Friday in the city of Suez, and the Internet was blocked ahead of the biggest protests yet planned against President Hosni Mubarak's 30-year rule.

Emboldened by this month's revolt that toppled the authoritarian leader of Tunisia, Egyptians have staged mass protests since Tuesday. The biggest demonstrations yet are planned for Friday afternoon after weekly prayers.

"This is a revolution," one 16-year-old protester said in Suez late on Thursday. "Every day we're coming back here."

171 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:18:32pm

re: #170 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Egypt unrest rages

16-year old protester. WOW.

172 freetoken  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:18:57pm

Looks like it'll be a mild day across much of the country tomorrow.

Some of you who have been below freezing will catch a break.

173 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:19:26pm

re: #172 freetoken

Looks like it'll be a mild day across much of the country tomorrow.

Some of you who have been below freezing will catch a break.

promises, promises . . .

174 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:21:53pm

re: #172 freetoken

Looks like it'll be a mild day across much of the country tomorrow.

Some of you who have been below freezing will catch a break.

NOAA says differently for my part of the world. Do wish the other freezing parts get a break tho.

175 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:23:01pm

The Iranians are way ahead of the power curve on internet suppression.

One, they have no problem shutting down the web in their country. Outfitted with network management tools and deep packet inspection capability routed to them via China, the revolutionary guard has no problem blocking access. Sometimes a town is cut off or part of a city or a region - their kill switch is highly developed and not so course as to require a country wide shutdown.

Two, the Iranians have shutdown wireless networks too - people here loved stories about Twitter enabling protests, not knowing that the tools that Nokia Siemens had provided allowed the regime to locate the very phones and the very locations of such phones that were taking the videos and posting the tweets. The revolutionary guard simply had to fire up crystal reports to print out who to round up and interrogate afterward.

Three, the network monitoring is now so rationalized that local police stations are being staffed with internet police - if you are using your digital devices inappropriately, the dpi correlations will trigger an alert that will be passed to the local police station and the internet police will pay you a visit.

Iran has plenty of smart and well educated engineers (often times educated in western universities) that are assembling a flexible web of continuous surveillance over cyber-captive populations.

Now that Lebanon is completely an Iranian client state these tools will be applied there. And as these regimes in the Arab world fall expect the revolutionary guard to expand their influence by bargaining with the replacement regimes - all of whom will want to ensure the population doesn't turn on them.

176 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:23:13pm

re: #165 ggt

The US needs to be diplomatically very careful about what is happening in Egypt... we tend to embrace dictators and "dictator like" leaders when we have a large financial interest in a country, or that country houses a possibly bigger enemy, such as the MB. We can't let the MB taint the actualities on the ground concerning the Egyptian people and their complaints.

The biggest news during the whole time I was in Paris, was of course Tunisia. In an effort to protect it's interest, and it's ex-pats there, The French Foreign Minister, Michèle Alliot-Marie made some stupid and self serving remarks that didn't take well with most of the rest of the world. Sarkozy has had to apologize for the remarks since then.

It was entertaining to watch the on the ground French reporters in Tunisia tap dance from on point of view early on in the week to another point of view, as Elysees kept pulling different strings.

Made France look really stupid. We need to consider factors like this before we back even the right horse for all the wrong reasons.

[Link: www.independent.co.uk...]

(takes to heavy a comment this late at night... whew)

177 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:27:28pm

re: #176 Walter L. Newton

The US needs to be diplomatically very careful about what is happening in Egypt... we tend to embrace dictators and "dictator like" leaders when we have a large financial interest in a country, or that country houses a possibly bigger enemy, such as the MB. We can't let the MB taint the actualities on the ground concerning the Egyptian people and their complaints.

The biggest news during the whole time I was in Paris, was of course Tunisia. In an effort to protect it's interest, and it's ex-pats there, The French Foreign Minister, Michèle Alliot-Marie made some stupid and self serving remarks that didn't take well with most of the rest of the world. Sarkozy has had to apologize for the remarks since then.

It was entertaining to watch the on the ground French reporters in Tunisia tap dance from on point of view early on in the week to another point of view, as Elysees kept pulling different strings.

Made France look really stupid. We need to consider factors like this before we back even the right horse for all the wrong reasons.

[Link: www.independent.co.uk...]

(takes to heavy a comment this late at night... whew)

Thanks for your input. I know it's a precarious situation.

Sad that there seems to be no "right" answer concerning the rank-'n-file Egyptian. Or at least, no short-term "right" answer.

178 lostlakehiker  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:28:17pm

re: #85 Dark_Falcon

if that is true, then i would have to say I would reluctantly want the protesters beaten down and defeated. Because if they get rid of Mubarak, I fear the worst.

Washington was right...the U.S. should be the friend and well-wisher of liberty everywhere. But the Egyptians must understand---we will not send our armed forces to secure their revolution. They're on their own.

179 KronoGhazi  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:34:12pm

I'm getting that icky tense feeling like what happened with the Green Tide. Except at the begging of Iran's uprising there was hope: now there is none, just the anxiety.

180 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:35:02pm

re: #177 ggt

Thanks for your input. I know it's a precarious situation.

Sad that there seems to be no "right" answer concerning the rank-'n-file Egyptian. Or at least, no short-term "right" answer.

Ah... there you hit the nail on the head. I will reply by staying in Tunisia. The Tunisia people have legitimate complaints (as I suspect the Egyptian people do), but it's outside countries like France, who have the dubious distinction of being the bastard colonial step-father of a country, so they feel a need to "protect" their ex-colony, their still entrenched financial interests and more than ready to try to make any interruption in their in-country French citizens a small blip on their day to day high living.

I saw many French news reports (from Tunisia) of how this French ex-pat was concerned about thing escalating or that French ex-pat concerned about his/her safety... and the report is being done in the comfort of a very insular tourist styled shopping mall, far removed from most Tunisian's daily life.

Too bad for the Tunisian's, but we can't have our "vie de jour" upset by some little peasant complaining.

181 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:37:33pm

from the CIA factbook:


POLITICAL PRESSURE GROUPS AND LEADERS

Muslim Brotherhood (technically illegal)
note: despite a constitutional ban against religious-based parties and political activity, the technically illegal Muslim Brotherhood constitutes Egypt's most potentially significant political opposition; President MUBARAK has alternated between tolerating limited political activity by the Brotherhood and blocking its influence (its members compete as independents in elections but do not currently hold any seats in the legislature); civic society groups are sanctioned, but constrained in practical terms; only trade unions and professional associations affiliated with the government are officially sanctioned; Internet social networking groups and bloggers

182 laZardo  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:37:57pm

re: #179 BigPapa

I'm getting that icky tense feeling like what happened with the Green Tide. Except at the begging of Iran's uprising there was hope: now there is none, just the anxiety.

Same. Especially given that in Egypt, the only alternative is worse.

183 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:43:08pm

re: #158 Dark_Falcon

Good questions. They issue is the MB's underground organization. Official security agencies have a lot of power, but by the same token their Command, Control and Communications (C3) centers are visible and can be targeted by protesters. Further, official organizations generally cannot survive being repulsed by protests; They tend to lose cohesion rapidly after that unless reinforced. By contrast, The Muslim Brotherhoods organization is hidden is such a way as a protest movement cannot target it effectively. Moreover, not being the actual government, their morale is better able to survive setbacks. Third, and most important, Radical Islamists believe that they are on a mission from God. And that belief gives them great resolve, much greater than that of a hired gun (which is what most dictator's security people really are). Their hard core adherents won't quit, they must be hunted down and either imprisoned or killed. And that is almost impossible to do without a proper organization.

Okay, I'm coming back just to respond to this.

Let's say everything you state is correct, and let's assume that whoever is organizing these protests 1.) doesn't also have an underground organization or post-Mubarak plan, and 2.) that the desire for freedom & self-determination can NOT be a mission every bit as passionately felt as one that is "from God".

That leaves me with a frustrated question: I've heard the refrain over and over again that moderate Muslims in the ME should take back their religion from the extremists and prove that they can be tolerant and have some form of democracy. Yet when they rise up against undemocratic dictators and demand freedom—and keeping in mind that there's no indication that the events in Tunisia or in Egypt are being orchestrated by Islamists—people still aren't happy. I mean seriously, WTF? It was the same thing with Park51.

Yeah, revolutions are freaking scary because we don't know how they'll turn out. I get that. All I can say is I'm damned glad others had some faith in our forefathers when they were struggling to be free of the British.

Yeah, I'm naive. I'm a tree-hugging, unicorn-loving, Kumbaya-singing, daydreaming liberal. So sue me.

I'm leaving now because I'm about to blow a frigging gasket and I don't want to burn any bridges, which I tend to do when I get pissed.

Later.

184 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:43:25pm

re: #181 ggt

from the CIA factbook:

The problem is that Al Qaeda was ultimately spawned from the MB (via Egyptian Islamic Jihad). So the MB has a native capacity for violence but has produced extremely violent terrorist offshoots.

185 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:43:57pm

also from the CIA factbook:

population below the poverty line: 20%

186 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:44:55pm

re: #183 CuriousLurker

Okay, I'm coming back just to respond to this.

Let's say everything you state is correct, and let's assume that whoever is organizing these protests 1.) doesn't also have an underground organization or post-Mubarak plan, and 2.) that the desire for freedom & self-determination can NOT be a mission every bit as passionately felt as one that is "from God".

That leaves me with a frustrated question: I've heard the refrain over and over again that moderate Muslims in the ME should take back their religion from the extremists and prove that they can be tolerant and have some form of democracy. Yet when they rise up against undemocratic dictators and demand freedom—and keeping in mind that there's no indication that the events in Tunisia or in Egypt are being orchestrated by Islamists—people still aren't happy. I mean seriously, WTF? It was the same thing with Park51.

Yeah, revolutions are freaking scary because we don't know how they'll turn out. I get that. All I can say is I'm damned glad others had some faith in our forefathers when they were struggling to be free of the British.

Yeah, I'm naive. I'm a tree-hugging, unicorn-loving, Kumbaya-singing, daydreaming liberal. So sue me.

I'm leaving now because I'm about to blow a frigging gasket and I don't want to burn any bridges, which I tend to do when I get pissed.

Later.

Kudo's... no kidding... especially on the part I bolded above.

187 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:49:35pm

re: #184 Dark_Falcon

The problem is that Al Qaeda was ultimately spawned from the MB (via Egyptian Islamic Jihad). So the MB has a native capacity for violence but has produced extremely violent terrorist offshoots.

Curious Lurker makes the point brilliantly... "Yet when they rise up against undemocratic dictators and demand freedom—and keeping in mind that there's no indication that the events in Tunisia or in Egypt are being orchestrated by Islamists—people still aren't happy."

You can't seem to get this idea through your head. If there is a Muslim in the country, they for you this has to be some sort of problem orchestrated by radical Muslims.

You showed you true colors the other night when you suggested forgoing all sorts of human rights in order to violently crack down on the MB.

You need to do a little more study in these issue... let's start with a primer... read this article about the recent problems in Tunisia...

[Link: www.independent.co.uk...]

188 laZardo  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:49:47pm

re: #183 CuriousLurker

Back in the day, our forefathers had plenty of time to sit in halls, debate like gentlemen and drink tea (not just throw it off a conveniently-located barge) to figured out what they wanted to happen after independence.

Today, in our split-second internet age...well...not so much.

189 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:51:01pm

Behold the power of Nokia Siemens and Crystal Reports

[Link: www.wirednews.us...]

Iranian opposition activists hanged for protest footage

Published: 24th Jan 2011 20:21:54

Iranian authorities have hanged two men convicted of taking part in protests following the disputed presidential election in 2009.

Iranian prosecutors said Jafar Kazemi and Mohammad Ali Hajaghaei had taken photos and footage of the protests and distributed them on the internet.

They were also found guilty of chanting slogans promoting the exiled People's Mujahideen of Iran (PMOI).

A PMOI leader in France, Maryam Rajavi, described the executions as barbaric.

The People's Mujahideen of Iran is an exiled opposition group which has campaigned against clerical rule in Iran and, before that, the Iranian monarchy.

It is seen by Tehran as a terrorist cell in the pocket of Western security services but is also on Washington's list of proscribed organisations because of its history of violent attacks.

After the presidential election in 2009, the internet - and specifically social networking sites - became a crucial means of mobilising hundreds of thousands of Iranians who disputed the results to protest.

Hundreds of people were arrested after the protests and although most have been released, more than 80 people have been jailed for up to 15 years, and at least four other people convicted of involvement in the demonstrations are reported to be on death row.

190 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:52:31pm

re: #184 Dark_Falcon

The problem is that Al Qaeda was ultimately spawned from the MB (via Egyptian Islamic Jihad). So the MB has a native capacity for violence but has produced extremely violent terrorist offshoots.

I know that. They have clearly stated goals that directly oppose "Western Values". I'd like to think as Universal Values, but that is a different discussion.

These protests are spawned by food prices, basically, right?

The poor aren't happy-probably for good reason. That is BAD.

The poor and uneducated aren't happy. That is double-plus BAD.

They will follow whomever provides for their needs.

Now, what I am trying to assimilate is the military demographics. According to the factbook, military services is:

18-30 years of age for male conscript military service; service obligation 12-36 months, followed by a 9-year reserve obligation (2008)

So the military has ample opportunity to indoctrinate the population. If there are still protests, it would seem the situation is . . . (I don't know the right vocabulary, here)

191 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:55:25pm

Inside Egypt’s blackout, ahead of the storm

On Thursday evening, the first night of the weekend for Egypt, Cairo’s motorways are usually packed with cars and its restaurants, bars and clubs are full. This Thursday, the famous Khan el-Khalili market, next to one of Cairo’s largest mosques was deserted by midnight.

Cairo University was also barren as was Tahrir Square. Cairo’s streets are eerily empty.

A high turnout is expected for demonstrations planned across Egypt for Friday despite the break in communications.

“I think we are living the most exciting days of our lives in terms of politics,” Ismail said. “I am very eager to see what will happen on Friday. What is our plan for the next 72 hours? How will the army react? How will President Mubarak react?”

A statement by the Secretary General of ruling National Democratic Party Safwat Sherif was revealed in the early hours of Friday morning as local newspapers were printed.

“Egyptian leaders do not run away,” he said.

“We are not afraid of anything.” He called on NDP youth to go to the Friday morning prayer, which is an important time marker for Friday’s demonstrations, which are scheduled to begin following the prayer.

Ismail and others fear this could lead to clashes between NDP supporters and demonstrators. The statement is the first political statement made by the government since the demonstrations began on Tuesday.

For 48 hours the government left the reaction to the security forces. In 1977, then President Anwar Sadat was able to quell rising student protests by conceding certain economic conditions. He then cracked down on political freedoms when the demonstration stemmed.

Friday morning’s papers also revealed that the Egyptian cabinet will meet on Sunday to discuss ways to meet some of the demonstrator’s economic and social demands. Sunday may be too late.

192 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:56:06pm

re: #187 Walter L. Newton

Curious Lurker makes the point brilliantly... "Yet when they rise up against undemocratic dictators and demand freedom—and keeping in mind that there's no indication that the events in Tunisia or in Egypt are being orchestrated by Islamists—people still aren't happy."

You can't seem to get this idea through your head. If there is a Muslim in the country, they for you this has to be some sort of problem orchestrated by radical Muslims.

Not true. Tunisia gives me pause, but I think the developments there are basically positive. And I wished the Iranian protesters victory, and tried to figure out if we could help them. But Egypt seems to me a different case. The Muslim Brother hood scares the hell out of me and my main priority is keeping them out of power.

193 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:58:05pm

re: #187 Walter L. Newton

Curious Lurker makes the point brilliantly... "Yet when they rise up against undemocratic dictators and demand freedom—and keeping in mind that there's no indication that the events in Tunisia or in Egypt are being orchestrated by Islamists—people still aren't happy."

You can't seem to get this idea through your head. If there is a Muslim in the country, they for you this has to be some sort of problem orchestrated by radical Muslims.

You showed you true colors the other night when you suggested forgoing all sorts of human rights in order to violently crack down on the MB.

You need to do a little more study in these issue... let's start with a primer... read this article about the recent problems in Tunisia...

[Link: www.independent.co.uk...]

I think the idea that any unrest or chaos could give the MB an opportunity to increase their influence is pretty scary myself.

194 laZardo  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 10:58:59pm

re: #190 ggt

So the military has ample opportunity to indoctrinate the population. If there are still protests, it would seem the situation is . . . (I don't know the right vocabulary, here)

[military-style aviators]

...FUBAR.

195 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:00:12pm

re: #194 laZardo

[military-style aviators]

...FUBAR.

Let's hope it's not FUBAR and all our anxiety proves to be silly.

196 laZardo  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:00:35pm

A thought:

Egypt is bordered by Libya, Sudan and Israel. If the internet is blocked in Egypt, would they try to swallow their pride and try channeling it through the latter?

197 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:01:57pm

re: #196 laZardo

A thought:

Egypt is bordered by Libya, Sudan and Israel. If the internet is blocked in Egypt, would they try to swallow their pride and try channeling it through the latter?

the rank-'n-file, the merchants/corporate types or the nerdy computer geeks?

198 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:02:10pm

re: #196 laZardo

A thought:

Egypt is bordered by Libya, Sudan and Israel. If the internet is blocked in Egypt, would they try to swallow their pride and try channeling it through the latter?

Unlikely. Even quite liberal Arabs fully inclined towards real democracy tend to be fairly intense haters of Israel.

199 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:02:44pm

re: #196 laZardo

A thought:

Egypt is bordered by Libya, Sudan and Israel. If the internet is blocked in Egypt, would they try to swallow their pride and try channeling it through the latter?

Physical border don't matter as much as the logical connections. Most of Egypt's internet services are run out of Italy.

200 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:03:31pm

re: #199 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Physical border don't matter as much as the logical connections. Most of Egypt's internet services are run out of Italy.

All that water in between is an issue?

/

201 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:05:11pm

re: #200 ggt

All that water in between is an issue?

/

Look, a shiny thing!

/throws it into the underbrush

202 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:06:22pm

my precious!

203 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:06:48pm

re: #200 ggt

All that water in between is an issue?

/

There are far longer undersea cables in the world than that.

204 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:08:07pm

re: #203 Dark_Falcon

There are far longer undersea cables in the world than that.

Yeah, but there be sirens and such in the Mediterranean.

205 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:08:26pm

re: #204 ggt

Yeah, but there be sirens and such in the Mediterranean.

SMACK!

206 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:08:26pm

re: #192 Dark_Falcon

Not true. Tunisia gives me pause, but I think the developments there are basically positive. And I wished the Iranian protesters victory, and tried to figure out if we could help them. But Egypt seems to me a different case. The Muslim Brother hood scares the hell out of me and my main priority is keeping them out of power.

Scares the hell out of YOU? I think you are quite safe where you are sitting right now. Maybe you haven't noticed, the general population are not up in arms about wanting MORE Islam in their daily lives, this is not a ground level uprising that is fueled by fundamental desire to revert backwards. The MB may have an interest in all this, but they are not orchestrating this, at this point the people are.

But I suspect it's attitudes like yours that will prevail, and we will have another quagmire to deal with.

207 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:08:51pm

re: #203 Dark_Falcon

There are far longer undersea cables in the world than that.

And here they are now.

Image: Internet-Undersea-Cable.jpg

208 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:12:36pm

re: #206 Walter L. Newton

Maybe you haven't noticed, the general population are not up in arms about wanting MORE Islam in their daily lives

Afghanistan is an interesting, if not totally appropriate, comparison. Did the population really, really, want as much Islam as they got with the Taliban?

It's not about who is orchestrating the protests, it's about who might take advantage of a young, uneducated and poor significant portion population and use them to further their goals.

It's also about being aware of all the possible outcomes, whether or not we like them.

209 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:12:54pm

re: #113 freetoken

From the link:

The population explosion in many of these nations, over the past few decades, has been expected to cause problems. Many young people are coming of age with very little opportunities for them.

Youth Bulge.

The conflict in Egypt is across generations, though. Even the elderly are on the street. Which is really good.

211 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:14:51pm

re: #206 Walter L. Newton

Scares the hell out of YOU? I think you are quite safe where you are sitting right now. Maybe you haven't noticed, the general population are not up in arms about wanting MORE Islam in their daily lives, this is not a ground level uprising that is fueled by fundamental desire to revert backwards. The MB may have an interest in all this, but they are not orchestrating this, at this point the people are.

But I suspect it's attitudes like yours that will prevail, and we will have another quagmire to deal with.

I'm sure as hell not proposing armed ground intervention. That would be a nightmare.

But I'm going sign off for the night. I know you don't like how I feel about this sort of thing. Sorry to offend and dissapoint you.

212 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:15:44pm

re: #118 CuriousLurker

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1 hour ago via Tweetie for Mac

@weddady weddady
NOOR DSL IS SMALLEST ISP IN #EGYPT GOV MOVED STOCK MARKET & BANKS TO IT BUT NOW ACTIVISTS WILL USE IT TOO #JAN25
1 hour ago via Tweetie for Mac

Hahaha, awesome!

213 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:16:54pm

re: #208 ggt

Afghanistan is an interesting, if not totally appropriate, comparison. Did the population really, really, want as much Islam as they got with the Taliban?

It's not about who is orchestrating the protests, it's about who might take advantage of a young, uneducated and poor significant portion population and use them to further their goals.

It's also about being aware of all the possible outcomes, whether or not we like them.

Let's see...

"Egyptian police have been fighting protesters in intensifying clashes, and demonstrations have reported from Yemen and Gabon – a sign that defiance against authoritarian rulers in the Middle East is spreading."

I guess we are going to have to help quell this in all these countries. Certainly can't have these people asking for less authoritarian governments if there is a possible threat of radical Islam lurking in the bushes.

These protestors just don't know what's good for them.
/

214 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:18:28pm

re: #192 Dark_Falcon

Not true. Tunisia gives me pause, but I think the developments there are basically positive. And I wished the Iranian protesters victory, and tried to figure out if we could help them. But Egypt seems to me a different case. The Muslim Brother hood scares the hell out of me and my main priority is keeping them out of power.

You want to keep them out of power by making them the scapegoat for an entire nation's oppression? This is just about the most counterproductive position imaginable. You want to make them a collective martyr, their name synonymous in the mind of the population with Prometheus chained, because they frighten you so. Perhaps you are just easily scared and the majority of a self-freed Egypt will see them the same way they view their other erstwhile oppressors.

215 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:18:42pm

re: #211 Dark_Falcon

I'm sure as hell not proposing armed ground intervention. That would be a nightmare.

But I'm going sign off for the night. I know you don't like how I feel about this sort of thing. Sorry to offend and dissapoint you.

Good night... this is not a matter of offense or disappointment, I'm not mad at you, I barely know you. It's opinion, mine, yours, shouted from the comfort of our American culture. You make so much drama out of it. Cool.

216 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:19:42pm

re: #213 Walter L. Newton

Let's see...

"Egyptian police have been fighting protesters in intensifying clashes, and demonstrations have reported from Yemen and Gabon – a sign that defiance against authoritarian rulers in the Middle East is spreading."

I guess we are going to have to help quell this in all these countries. Certainly can't have these people asking for less authoritarian governments if there is a possible threat of radical Islam lurking in the bushes.

These protestors just don't know what's good for them.
/

I'm sorry, forgot the link that the quote is from...

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

217 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:19:58pm

re: #213 Walter L. Newton

Let's see...

"Egyptian police have been fighting protesters in intensifying clashes, and demonstrations have reported from Yemen and Gabon – a sign that defiance against authoritarian rulers in the Middle East is spreading."

I guess we are going to have to help quell this in all these countries. Certainly can't have these people asking for less authoritarian governments if there is a possible threat of radical Islam lurking in the bushes.

These protestors just don't know what's good for them.
/

You are making assumptions. I am trying to examine the situation, and have not advocated any action.

218 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:20:42pm

re: #214 goddamnedfrank

For once, gotta up ding you on a point. Agreed.

219 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:22:13pm

re: #217 ggt

You are making assumptions. I am trying to examine the situation, and have not advocated any action.

Yes I am, you seem to be only a few steps behind DF on this. I'm sorry. I shouldn't do that.

220 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:24:15pm

re: #219 Walter L. Newton

Yes I am, you seem to be only a few steps behind DF on this. I'm sorry. I shouldn't do that.

You are right that DF and I think much along the same lines. I do like to know the worst possible outcome as well and the best. The eventual outcome will be somewhere in the middle. I like to know the pararmeters.

DF seems to be one of the few who will state the worst. I appreciate that.

221 freetoken  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:24:16pm

Going off topic for a moment...

If any of you caught my post the other night about creationism being a vector for Sharron Angle's comeback, here is a followup with even more to chew upon:

Sharron Angle comes to Iowa, doesn’t rule out presidential bid

Tea Party favorite Sharron Angle of Nevada descended upon the movie premiere of a conservative Christian movie in Johnston tonight, and she wouldn’t say that she was running for president.

But she wouldn’t say that she wasn’t.

“I’ll just say I have lots of options for the future, and I’m investigating all my options,” Angle said before a couple hundred people sat down to watch the premiere of “The Genesis Code,” a $5 million film that aims to present a controversial view on religious freedom and on the balancing act between faith and science.

Angle, who nearly beat Senate Majority leader Harry Reid in last year’s highly contested Senate race, promoted the movie as “family values” entertainment.

Angle, along with Republican National Committeeman Steve Scheffler and Republican National Committeewoman Kim Lehman, said the movie intends to encourage civil discourse about the big questions of life, from creation to end-of-life issues.

“It’s a controversial movie. We planned it that way,” said Rev. Jerry Zandstra, the executive in charge of production for the movie. “We are in Iowa now. We are in New Hampshire tomorrow. That is intentional.”

[Angle] didn’t rule out the possibility of returning to Iowa soon.

“Please, just invite me back,” she said to Iowans.

Ohhkaaayyy... so let's then go to New Hampshire and see what happened with that screening:

New Hampshire Republicans Flocking to Conservative Film Premiere

New Hampshire Republicans are buzzing about tonight’s local premiere of “The Genesis Code,” a film that examines the intersection between faith and science and premiered in Iowa on Wednesday night.

The Granite State’s free screening will be hosted by the leading local conservative group, Cornerstone Action, and includes a speaking program topped by tea party favorite Ovide Lamontagne, who narrowly lost last year’s GOP Senate primary to Sen. Kelly Ayotte.

Lamontagne is considered a top New Hampshire recruit for prospective presidential candidates. Another unsuccessful Senate candidate and tea party favorite, Nevada’s Sharron Angle, made headlines when she attended the movie’s Iowa premiere. Angle wouldn't rule out a presidential bid.

A local Republican strategist told Roll Call that creationism is expected to be a top issue for social conservatives as they interview GOP presidential candidates in the coming months. The issue came up twice in New Hampshire presidential debates last cycle.

[...]

It's pretty clear that the ground forces for the GOP in the lead off states for candidate selection are creating a creationism-test for any wanna-be GOP presidential contenders.

I dare any Republican who wants to be President to try and swim upstream against that.

222 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:24:58pm

re: #175 karmic_inquisitor

The Iranians are way ahead of the power curve on internet suppression.

One, they have no problem shutting down the web in their country. Outfitted with network management tools and deep packet inspection capability routed to them via China, the revolutionary guard has no problem blocking access. Sometimes a town is cut off or part of a city or a region - their kill switch is highly developed and not so course as to require a country wide shutdown.

Two, the Iranians have shutdown wireless networks too - people here loved stories about Twitter enabling protests, not knowing that the tools that Nokia Siemens had provided allowed the regime to locate the very phones and the very locations of such phones that were taking the videos and posting the tweets. The revolutionary guard simply had to fire up crystal reports to print out who to round up and interrogate afterward.

Three, the network monitoring is now so rationalized that local police stations are being staffed with internet police - if you are using your digital devices inappropriately, the dpi correlations will trigger an alert that will be passed to the local police station and the internet police will pay you a visit.

Iran has plenty of smart and well educated engineers (often times educated in western universities) that are assembling a flexible web of continuous surveillance over cyber-captive populations.

Now that Lebanon is completely an Iranian client state these tools will be applied there. And as these regimes in the Arab world fall expect the revolutionary guard to expand their influence by bargaining with the replacement regimes - all of whom will want to ensure the population doesn't turn on them.

Very true and very important. Iran even figured out the secret Tor handshake recently.

223 laZardo  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:26:02pm

re: #212 000G

Hahaha, awesome!

@Weddady?

@Whoddadynow?

224 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:27:18pm

re: #221 freetoken

Going off topic for a moment...

If any of you caught my post the other night about creationism being a vector for Sharron Angle's comeback, here is a followup with even more to chew upon:

Sharron Angle comes to Iowa, doesn’t rule out presidential bid

Ohhkaaayyy... so let's then go to New Hampshire and see what happened with that screening:

New Hampshire Republicans Flocking to Conservative Film Premiere

It's pretty clear that the ground forces for the GOP in the lead off states for candidate selection are creating a creationism-test for any wanna-be GOP presidential contenders.

I dare any Republican who wants to be President to try and swim upstream against that.

Genesis Code? Sounds like a Star Trek movie.

Religious Whackos seem to be everywhere.

(Lions, Tigers and Bears, oh MY!)

225 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:28:17pm

re: #178 lostlakehiker

Washington was right...the U.S. should be the friend and well-wisher of liberty everywhere. But the Egyptians must understand---we will not send our armed forces to secure their revolution. They're on their own.

Washington sends $1.3 billion annually just in military aid to Egypt. Egyptians, on either side, not on their own.

226 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:30:04pm

re: #225 000G

Washington sends $1.3 billion annually just in military aid to Egypt. Egyptians, on either side, not on their own.

Plus $3B (?) to keep them from invading Israel in other aid.

Mubarak is expensive.

227 freetoken  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:30:21pm

re: #224 ggt


Religious Whackos seem to be everywhere.

Speaking of which, and inching a bit closer to Egypt on the map:


Evolution sparks controversy in Turkish schools

A primary school teacher in Ankara has received an official warning for teaching evolution to an 11-year-old child, after the student's parents complained that the teacher had undermined their child's religious belief by favoring Darwinism over creationism.

According to Hurriyet Daily News, Suleyman Bicer, a teacher with 14 years of experience, was reprimanded for talking about evolution in response to a question posed by one of his students.

The head of Turkey's main teachers' union, Egitim-Sen, responded by saying that teachers were facing increasing pressure not to teach modern theories of evolution.

"The real motive behind the warning is the conflict between those who are trying to build education on a religious basis and those looking to scientific origins," Zubeyde Kilic told the daily.

[...]

Perhaps the GOP could field a candidate for Turkish President?

228 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:32:36pm

re: #227 freetoken

Speaking of which, and inching a bit closer to Egypt on the map:

Evolution sparks controversy in Turkish schools

Perhaps the GOP could field a candidate for Turkish President?

There was another connection --it was brought up during the LDS/Texas Child Custody debacle a while back.

Some text/children's book about creation. The Whacko contingent on both the Christian and Muslim front found common ground. Translations and such.

They seem to have the similar views on how to treat their women. . . .

229 freetoken  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:33:57pm

re: #228 ggt

The rejection of modernity crosses specific religion boundaries. Atavism is sort of its own beast and isn't beholden to be constrained within any single sect.

230 freetoken  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:35:38pm

I've got more creationism news, but I will save it for a Pages entry in the morning.

I suppose I could wrap all that Genesis Code/GOP/Angle stuff up into a Page itself, but I'm kind of hoping somebody else will run with the Angle angle.

231 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:36:23pm

re: #229 freetoken

The rejection of modernity crosses specific religion boundaries. Atavism is sort of its own beast and isn't beholden to be constrained within any single sect.

And is routinely used by those whose lust for power is anything but God-like.
(God with a capital "G")

232 laZardo  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:44:25pm

BBL nap.

/been up since 5 AM dealing with embassy stuff, I apparently have to write a letter detailing why I haven't filed a tax return on the Certificate of Deposit I left to mature in the States while I took college here

//i'm probably going to Gitmo over spare change ;_;

233 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:46:46pm

Amazing protest pictures: [Link: www.facebook.com...]

Protestors can play the information gathering game, too: [Link: www.flickr.com...]

234 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 11:53:10pm

Have a great morning/day all!

235 engineer cat  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 12:08:20am

In a further blow to his attempts to retain the office he has held for nearly 30 years, sources in Egypt said Mr Mubarak, who is 82, was told by police commanders that any demonstration attracting more than 70,000 protesters could not be contained.

236 Alexzander  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 12:17:26am

While we are critiquing this development, its worth mentioning that the US is still exploring the idea of an internet kill switch in the event of a "national cyberemergency." Apparently the bill introduced by Lieberman on this issue is still floating around, and he even admitted that the inspiration came in part from countries like China.

237 KronoGhazi  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 12:21:18am

Anybody and RS232/Crestron/SIMPL engineer?

238 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 2:12:29am

re: #233 000G

Amazing protest pictures: [Link: www.facebook.com...]

Protestors can play the information gathering game, too: [Link: www.flickr.com...]

That might be a very good thing for security forces worldwide to see. In the day when universal cell phones turn the whole world into a "dash-cam" it pays to show restraint. Oppression only works when you pick history's winners.

239 harlequinade  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 2:23:05am

re: #133 ggt

What is it with the 'setting cars on fire' thing?

I don't know if this has been answered yet, because I'm working my way down, but I got this from The Guardian's Live News page:

The Egyptian Association for Change claims police are preparing to torch vehicles as a pretext for putting down the demonstration, writes Haroon Siddique.

The report, based on phone calls from activists last night, is by Stephen McInerney, director of advocacy for the Project on Middle East Democracy. In a Facebook post he writes:


Currently, we're being told that large numbers of plainsclothes police officers and security officers are going through the streets covering parked cars with gasoline. The activists expect that the govt plans to light all the cars on fire, claim that the protesters were burning everything, and use that as a pretext to use severe violence to repress the protests, and eliminating all means for the people to relay the truth out of the country.

They are being told by sources within the regime that very large groups of govt-organized thugs, calling themselves "ikhwan al-Haq" [a group never heard of, roughly translated as "brotherhood of truth"], are going to be in the streets with knives, swords, etc..., attacking and killing protesters in the streets tomorrow [Friday]; they don't know whether this may be deliberately and falsely leaked to discourage demonstrators; but they do see evidence that these groups are being organized. they may also claim that these violent groups are the demonstrators as a pretext to use violence on the real demonstrators.

240 harlequinade  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 3:00:23am

Also this:

Jack Shenker describes Mohamed ElBaradei's arrival for prayers in Cairo today. ElBaradei was surrounded by a throng of supporters but also riot police.

One supporter, a teacher, told Jack that "hunger and poverty" had bought protesters out on to the streets. "We are not looking for an Islamic revolution" he said.

241 Jadespring  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 3:28:08am

Within the last half hour or so twitter has exploded with tweets about the protests in Egypt. Looks like it's breaking out all over the place. I'm seeing names of places that have not been mentioned before today.

Reports of gunfire, tear gas etc etc.

242 Jadespring  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 3:30:38am

I've been reading that some people are using landlines to get to people outside of the country and they're tweeting for them.

243 Jadespring  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 3:34:07am

They're doing reports about it on one of the national news stations up here but they're not in contact with the reporters there right now. Half an hour a go they talked to someone on a land line. They said they hoped to get him on a land line again to get updates.

244 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 3:34:11am

I have also seen increasing mentions of people using ham radio…

245 Jadespring  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 3:36:24am

re: #244 000G

I have also seen increasing mentions of people using ham radio…

Yep. I think that's how some of the 'tweets' are getting out too. A couple of journalists mentioned that they've got people outside of the country tweeting for them on their accounts.

246 researchok  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 3:40:20am

Morning, all

247 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 3:41:28am

Things are moving extremely fast, again.

248 harlequinade  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 3:45:17am

The Guardian have people on the ground and are getting broadcasts out, somehow.
But, as #247 000G says

Things are moving extremely fast, again.

249 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 3:48:41am

I put this up earlier this morning. There's a list of TV channels broadcast via satellite that I can access from here (work). The links just lead you to their web sites, NOT the live broadcasts themselves
[Link: www.lyngsat.com...]

Been checking some of them during the night. The ones I have are still on-air but I haven't seen any "live" content (just regular shows, it looks like to me,, no translation so I don't know what the audio is talking about)

250 harlequinade  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 3:50:34am

Al Jazeera is broadcasting live from here: [Link: english.aljazeera.net...]

251 Jadespring  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 3:52:28am

News here is going live to Cairo in 7 mins.

252 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 3:53:30am

re: #250 harlequinade

Al Jazeera is broadcasting live from here: [Link: english.aljazeera.net...]

They're not based in Egypt
They're located in Qatar

253 Jadespring  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 3:54:54am

CTV national news channel. The break fast show.


A little bit of ad humor occurring. One of the commercials that's been airing this AM is an Egypt tourism one.

254 Jadespring  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 3:56:07am

re: #252 sattv4u2

They're not based in Egypt
They're located in Qatar

Yes but their reporters are there. One of them apparently just got arrested.

255 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 3:56:07am

re: #253 Jadespring

CTV national news channel. The break fast show.

A little bit of ad humor occurring. One of the commercials that's been airing this AM is an Egypt tourism one.

That will be THE quietest phone bank evah!

256 harlequinade  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 3:56:29am

re: #252 sattv4u2

Those "Latest Pictures"? They're coming from Egypt.
But thanks for the information. I had no idea where they were based.

257 Jadespring  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 3:57:41am

Tweet that just came through.

Dear #TeaParty: Watch #Tunisia & #Egypt. If Obama does THAT to you, THEN you can call him 'oppressive

258 Jadespring  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 3:59:58am

NicRobertsonCNN Nic Robertson
Running confrontations,several thousand-no central point-increasingly angry crowds-working themselves into rage, men, women, young and old


He's in Alexandria.

259 Jadespring  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:04:40am

CTV reporter in Cairo, said small demonstrations happening around Cairo. Said he wanted the camera man to zoom past his shoulder and show the demo but they were told that if they showed it on film the feed would be cut.

Said biggest he's seen is about 400. Said police are meeting them with force and keeping the small groups separate. Said cars and people are walking by the demos and not joining.

260 Jadespring  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:13:25am

Now news is talking to someone about Egypt. Talking about how reporter there can't film and can't really move so he can only report what he's seeing from his position or be cut off completely. The guy they're talking to has said he's been in contact with people over land lines and things seem to be worse then what reporter is seeing.

261 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:16:15am

Al Jazeera pretty much not mentioning MB. Suspicious.

262 Jadespring  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:18:14am

MB?

263 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:19:23am

re: #261 000G

Al Jazeera pretty much not mentioning MB. Suspicious.

What could they (AJ) say about them (MB)?
AJ can't say MB is behind it or that AJ hopes MB comes out on top, even if thats what AJ wants the outcome to be

264 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:19:35am

re: #262 Jadespring

MB?

Muslim Brotherhood

265 harlequinade  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:25:43am

re: #240 harlequinade

Also this:

Jack Shenker describes Mohamed ElBaradei's arrival for prayers in Cairo today. ElBaradei was surrounded by a throng of supporters but also riot police.

One supporter, a teacher, told Jack that "hunger and poverty" had bought protesters out on to the streets. "We are not looking for an Islamic revolution" he said.

And this from Twitter

@tamersalama Egypt uprising is a POPULAR uprising - not religious, not political, not idiological - plain vanilla 'popular'.

I tell you the most interesting thing about listening to Al Jazeera is.. that they seem to be just reporting about what's on the ground. And, when they do, they are informative, as opposed to obviously politically biased.

266 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:27:09am

Image: 5395027368_7d97b74c0b_b.jpg

The tweetstorm that is still coming out is amazing.

267 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:28:29am

re: #265 harlequinade

I tell you the most interesting thing about listening to Al Jazeera is.. that they seem to be just reporting about what's on the ground. And, when they do, they are informative, as opposed to obviously politically biased.

I still find the silence on MB telling…

268 harlequinade  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:31:49am

re: #267 000G

Out of interest, what would you like them to say about them?

269 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:32:51am

re: #267 000G

I still find the silence on MB telling…

Again, not telling at all (imho)

From where they (AJ) sits they can't be seen as taking sides

Lets say IF they were to be seen as backing MB and MB does NOT come out on top in Egypt AJ is in a bad position

Conversely even if MB were to come out on top those in Egypt opposed to them would have an axe to grind against AJ..For a network that depends on access to the entire ME they can't be locked into "sides"

So it's lose/ lose

270 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:37:24am

re: #268 harlequinade

Out of interest, what would you like them to say about them?

More about their obvious role in all of this. They have begun actively participating as of today. And their previous role as the country's largest oppositional faction is a major reason why the US is so anxious about removing their support from Mubarak. Oh, AJ is talking a lot about the US support for Mubarak… not so much about the political alternatives, though.

271 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:40:48am

Apparently, Al-Arabiya reported that various policemen have put down their uniforms and joined protestors…

272 harlequinade  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:42:04am

Did they have an "obvious role"? Especially if they have begun to participate as of today?

Was it up-thread here where it was said that they were caught off-foot?

I still see this as a popular uprising.

(They just, AJ, mentioned how the Egyptian Christians said they'd protect the mosques during prayers. After all the attacks. That. Awesome.)

Like they're saying. No one would have thought that would have gone off last week.
I think what we're seeing isn't cleverly worded reporting - but surprise.

273 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:42:09am

re: #270 000G

More about their obvious role in all of this.
AJ is talking a lot about the US support for Mubarak… not so much about the political alternatives

HAve you not read anything I posted?

Again, it would be lose/ lose for Al Jazeera regardless of the outcome

They (AJ) can hammer on US 'involvement" (preaching to the choir) but there are sides in the ME pro and con MB so AJ can't take one side or the other because AJ needs to cater to both!

274 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:43:57am

re: #273 sattv4u2

HAve you not read anything I posted?

Yes, I have read it and I think it's trite. Your assumption is that AJ should assume that no democratic reform is possible, so they should not report on facts for fear of choosing the wrong totalitarian side.

275 harlequinade  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:44:35am

re: #273 sattv4u2

Or... and I know this is going to be met with derision but... they could just be reporting about the events on the ground, as they are happening. Because - to use the word they are using - it is unprecedented

276 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:45:38am

re: #275 harlequinade

Or... and I know this is going to be met with derision but... they could just be reporting about the events on the ground, as they are happening. Because - to use the word they are using - it is unprecedented

But 000G was asking why isn't AJ reporting on MB role and I was responding to that

277 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:45:48am

re: #272 harlequinade

Did they have an "obvious role"? Especially if they have begun to participate as of today?

Was it up-thread here where it was said that they were caught off-foot?

I meant (sorry for being unclear) to say that it is obvious that they have a role. What that role is should be reported by reporters.

I still see this as a popular uprising.

I think so, too.

(They just, AJ, mentioned how the Egyptian Christians said they'd protect the mosques during prayers. After all the attacks. That. Awesome.)

Yeah, I caught that, too. Nice reciprocal gesture after what a lot of Muslims did for the Copts after the recent bombings.

278 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:46:46am

What about the Egyptian guys who aren't trying to take over the gubmint, but just wanna surf porn?

279 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:46:50am

gtg, bye

280 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:48:44am

re: #278 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What about the Egyptian guys who aren't trying to take over the gubmint, but just wanna surf porn?

They can have this

[Link: www.google.com...]

281 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:49:33am

re: #280 sattv4u2

May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your armpits.

282 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:50:12am

re: #281 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your armpits.

Too late!

283 harlequinade  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:50:39am

re: #276 sattv4u2

Sorry. That wasn't meant to look as snarky as it did.
It took me forever to type it because - even to me - writing "Al Jazeera isn't being biased" was that pre-programmed, cognitive dissonance.

It was more to - Did he just say they've taken Al Jazeera off the air in Egypt?

Sorry...to continue conversation.

284 Jadespring  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:51:59am

From guardian liveblog

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

Middle-class, urban, web-savvy – the archetypal media image of the young protesters who have shaken Egypt's dictatorship this week captures only part of the reality.

This generation of dissidents, most of whom have lived their entire lives under the three-decade rule of President Hosni Mubarak, have rejected the moribund landscape of formal politics that has ensnared many of their liberal elders since Nasser's 1952 revolution.

Not content to feed on the crumbs of free expression thrown by the Egyptian regime, they have carved out an alternative space in which to develop, swap and spread ideas which challenge the status quo.

Until the government cut off internet access this morning, the forums they organised were online, spread through a vibrant network of blogs and social media sites. Despite Egypt's limited internet penetration, Facebook has been "the main actor", says Khalid al Aman a political analyst at Durham university. "The development of these events has transcended classical movements like the Muslim Brotherhood and other political parties."


In terms of MB involvement in this I think right now it's just assumption to the extent that they are behind this. Yesterday I spent some time trying to read translated pages like facebook and there were comment about the Brotherhood. Don't think I read anything positive.

So yes I don't don't that they will try to take advantage of the situation but I think it's premature and the extent of their involvement isn't entirely 'obvious' as has been suggested.

285 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:54:21am

re: #283 harlequinade

Sorry. That wasn't meant to look as snarky as it did.
It took me forever to type it because - even to me - writing "Al Jazeera isn't being biased" was that pre-programmed, cognitive dissonance.

It was more to - Did he just say they've taken Al Jazeera off the air in Egypt?

Sorry...to continue conversation.

n/p

Al Jazeera is looking out for Al Jazeera, plain and simple

No matter who/what/where/when comes out of these conflicts AJ needs access so they can NOT be seen as taking sides

286 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:54:29am

re: #57 Floral Giraffe

WOW!

Exactly the same type of info that Barrett Brown's Project PM has been sending to contacts in Egypt.

287 Jadespring  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:55:22am

CNN's cameras were smashed.

288 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:59:28am

re: #286 ryannon

Exactly the same type of info that Barrett Brown's Project PM has been sending to contacts in Egypt.

You mean the same Barrett Brown that had his account blocked here at LGF?

290 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:07:32am

re: #284 Jadespring

So yes I don't don't that they will try to take advantage of the situation but I think it's premature and the extent of their involvement isn't entirely 'obvious' as has been suggested.

I have not suggested that extent or natrue of MB's involvement is obvious – but particularly because this is a popular uprising (meaning that it transcends, for the critical moment, many otherwise dividing lines of society) it is obvious that they have a role, and since they are the biggest oppositional party, asking what their role is going to be when it comes to filling the vacuum of power left after an eventual toppling of Mubarak, is entirely legitimate.

291 Jadespring  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:07:45am

re: #289 000G

There you go: With Muslim Brotherhood Set to Join Egypt Protests, Religion’s Role May Grow (NY Times)

Join is different then being behind. Most of the comments I read yesterday were about what would happen if they joined. They weren't good for the Brotherhood.

292 PhillyPretzel  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:08:30am

Here is the latest from The Wall Street Journal: [Link: online.wsj.com...]

293 harlequinade  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:13:04am

re: #289 000G

Having read that, I still think they're on the back foot. That whole thing just smacked of hedging bets. Of course people are going to be on the streets today. They've been planning it for the past week.

I am not moved to believe they have any hand in, other than opportunistic.

294 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:13:06am

re: #288 Walter L. Newton

You mean the same Barrett Brown that had his account blocked here at LGF?


I see that the antibiotics haven't affected your sense of humor :-)

295 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:14:20am

re: #294 ryannon

I see that the antibiotics haven't affected your sense of humor :-)

Yup ,, he still doesn't have one, meds or not!!
/

296 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:15:18am

re: #294 ryannon

I see that the antibiotics haven't affected your sense of humor :-)

Moi? I didn't get where I am today by wearing underpants decorated with Beethoven.

297 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:15:55am

re: #296 Walter L. Newton

Moi? I didn't get where I am today by wearing underpants decorated with Beethoven.

GGAHHH,, BRAIN BLEACH!!

298 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:17:16am

re: #295 sattv4u2

Yup ,, he still doesn't have one, meds or not!!
/

Absence is better than a cure. Prevention makes the heart grow fonder.

299 PhillyPretzel  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:17:21am

re: #296 Walter L. Newton
Way too much information. I do not need that mental image.

300 RogueOne  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:28:49am

Morning all!

Charlie Sheen is my hero. When you party so hard with 5 whores ladies that you end up with a hernia, you're doing it right!
[Link: www.nydailynews.com...]


TMZ.com reported that Sheen, on hiatus this week from the CBS sitcom "Two and a Half Men," began partying Tuesday.

At one point, a designer briefcase containing "bricks" of cocaine was delivered to the house, the site said.

There were already four women there when he had a friend call porn star Kacey Jordan, 22, to join the bash Wednesday afternoon, Radar Online reported.

"It's officially 24 hours of drinking! Hehe," Jordan later posted on her Twitter page, saying she'd consumed two bottles of vodka, a bottle of wine, a pint of whisky, and beer.

She also uploaded a risqué photo of herself in a bikini and boasted her "life has changed."

The X-rated actress, who has hired a lawyer, reportedly left hours before paramedics came. Porn pal Melanie Rios, 19, was still there for the 911 call from the house, Radar reported.

I think he's ready to run for office.

301 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:29:03am

re: #299 PhillyPretzel

Way too much information. I do not need that mental image.

Now you've done it

he's going to put on his SpiderMan Underwear now!!

302 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:30:10am

re: #286 ryannon

Exactly the same type of info that Barrett Brown's Project PM has been sending to contacts in Egypt.

Yeah, because those stupid brown people couldn't come up with that by themselves. They need Western white people to think their revolution through for them.

/

303 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:30:37am

re: #291 Jadespring

re: #293 harlequinade

I get all that. But you seem to forget that even the popular revolutions can only be judged by their outcome.

304 harlequinade  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:31:27am

re: #303 000G

Or have their outcomes pre-judged?

305 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:32:04am

re: #304 harlequinade

Or have their outcomes pre-judged?

So you think "developing news" is merely a catch-phrase?

306 harlequinade  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:32:07am

Gah - double post. Can I delete that or is that Charles only?

307 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:32:19am

re: #302 Obdicut

Yeah, because those stupid brown people couldn't come up with that by themselves. They need Western white people to think their revolution through for them.

/

Uh... Yeah.

/?

308 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:33:37am

re: #306 harlequinade

Gah - double post. Can I delete that or is that Charles only?

If they are both #304, thats a "YOU" problem

(only seeing it once here)

309 PhillyPretzel  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:33:38am

re: #301 sattv4u2
Gee that mental image is even worse.

310 Jadespring  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:33:39am

Canada revokes residency of Tunisian ruling family

Canada has revoked the residency of members of the Tunisian ruling clan, a government source said Thursday as anti-government unrest in North Africa and the Middle East spawned protests here.

Belhassen Trabelsi, a billionaire Tunisian businessman and brother-in-law to the ousted president, is believed to have fled to Canada last week.

311 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:34:06am

re: #309 PhillyPretzel

Gee that mental image is even worse.

:)

312 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:34:43am

Tactical Wikileaks support by releasing of Egypt cables.

313 RogueOne  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:35:17am

re: #284 Jadespring

From guardian liveblog

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]


In terms of MB involvement in this I think right now it's just assumption to the extent that they are behind this. Yesterday I spent some time trying to read translated pages like facebook and there were comment about the Brotherhood. Don't think I read anything positive.

So yes I don't don't that they will try to take advantage of the situation but I think it's premature and the extent of their involvement isn't entirely 'obvious' as has been suggested.

They may not be behind this but they'll be the ones to come out on top if this leads to an overthrow of the current government. They're the oldest, biggest, most organized opposition group in the country.

314 harlequinade  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:35:52am

re: #305 000G

I think giving more weight to the Brotherhood, who are late to the party, and appear to be trying to grab as much credit as they can, is pre-judging.

And by carrying that thought in to "breaking news" means that, no matter _what_ the outcome, it will be the Brotherhood wot dun it.

315 harlequinade  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:36:37am

re: #308 sattv4u2

It is! Thanks. Same for my 314 too. Apple-R

316 Jadespring  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:37:01am

re: #303 000G

re: #293 harlequinade

I get all that. But you seem to forget that even the popular revolutions can only be judged by their outcome.

No I haven't forgotten. We're aren't at the judgment stage as the outcome is far from decided right now.

317 albusteve  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:37:21am

re: #313 RogueOne

They may not be behind this but they'll be the ones to come out on top if this leads to an overthrow of the current government. They're the oldest, biggest, most organized opposition group in the country.

no doubt they will murder their way to the forefront of significance

318 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:37:45am

re: #300 RogueOne

I think he's ready to run for office.

Finally. Someone with appeal to both parties.

319 RogueOne  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:38:07am

re: #302 Obdicut

Yeah, because those stupid brown people couldn't come up with that by themselves. They need Western white people to think their revolution through for them.

/

I'm having a hard time understanding your argument. Are you saying westerners should sit on the sidelines and not offer any type of help? Can you flesh out your thoughts just a bit?

320 harlequinade  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:38:24am

re: #313 RogueOne

I think they might try, but if this is a popular uprising, I don't see that being overly successful. Someone should tweet/message Al Jazeera and ask what they think about the brotherhood in relation to this.

321 albusteve  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:38:41am

re: #318 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Finally. Someone with appeal to both parties.

the guy would be doing society a favor if he'd drop over dead

322 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:38:43am

re: #314 harlequinade

I think giving more weight to the Brotherhood, who are late to the party, and appear to be trying to grab as much credit as they can, is pre-judging.

And by carrying that thought in to "breaking news" means that, no matter _what_ the outcome, it will be the Brotherhood wot dun it.

I am not giving them any more weight than they have. Ignoring that pre-demonstrations they had the most political weight bar Mubarak is dangerous, though. Finding out how they will be able to position themselves amidst the protests is crucial, denying that this will take place somehow is foolish.

323 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:39:25am

Amazing pictures: [Link: blog.foreignpolicy.com...]

324 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:39:51am

litfreak Nora
by yelayat
Opposition leader Ayman Nour's son reports his father was hit on the back of the head. Currently in intensive care. #Egypt #Jan25

325 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:40:16am

It's moving so fast, impossible to keep up with [Link: twitter.com...] – amazing for a shut down internet.

326 RogueOne  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:40:37am

re: #317 albusteve

no doubt they will murder their way to the forefront of significance

There is a very large conservative muslim presence in Egypt. The problem for the people who want their own version of individual freedoms is they're in the minority. In my opinion they're a small version of what could happen in SA. Without the brutality of the royals, who only play at conservatism in order to remain in power, the real radicals would take over.

327 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:40:51am

re: #325 000G

It's moving so fast, impossible to keep up with [Link: twitter.com...] – amazing for a shut down internet.

Yes, it is.
I'll refresh, and the seconds later there are 20, 40, 60 more.

328 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:41:29am

re: #323 000G

Amazing pictures: [Link: blog.foreignpolicy.com...]

Sadly, they're not all that "amazing"

See;
Gaza
West Bank
France
Greece

329 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:41:39am
330 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:41:40am

re: #316 Jadespring

No I haven't forgotten. We're aren't at the judgment stage as the outcome is far from decided right now.

I didn't say judgement is what's needed now – what's needed is honest speculation, based on solid information brought forth by reporting. I have a hard time believing there is nothing much to report on the MB front…

331 PhillyPretzel  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:42:30am

re: #325 000G

re: #327 reine.de.tout

Where there is a will there is a way.

332 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:42:38am

re: #328 sattv4u2

Sadly, they're not all that "amazing"

See;
Gaza
West Bank
France
Greece

Huh?

333 laZardo  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:43:17am

re: #330 000G

I didn't say judgement is what's needed now – what's needed is honest speculation, based on solid information brought forth by reporting. I have a hard time believing there is nothing much to report on the MB front…

I'm one of those who think they're gonna end up taking over in the event of Mubarak's fall anyway, if only because I'm cynical like that. ):

334 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:43:38am

re: #330 000G

I didn't say judgement is what's needed now – what's needed is honest speculation, based on solid information brought forth by reporting. I have a hard time believing there is nothing much to report on the MB front

There is reporting on the "MB front"

Just don't expect much of it at this time from Al Jazeera (which is where this all started)

See links above to the NYT and WSJ

335 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:43:53am

re: #332 000G

Huh?

Similar images

336 albusteve  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:44:02am

re: #328 sattv4u2

Sadly, they're not all that "amazing"

See;
Gaza
West Bank
France
Greece

just more pics of ME grief...now if they showed militants launching a rocket then jumping into an ambulance for the getaway, that would be interesting...move along

337 Jadespring  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:44:06am

re: #322 000G

I am not giving them any more weight than they have. Ignoring that pre-demonstrations they had the most political weight bar Mubarak is dangerous, though. Finding out how they will be able to position themselves amidst the protests is crucial, denying that this will take place somehow is foolish.

Whose denying it? No one. You're just going under the assumption that people know already and aren't reporting it. That's an assumption based on little except your statements about it being obvious. It situations like this it is very different to 'get' to exactly whats going on especially with communications being cut as they are and the fact that any involvement they do have is not likely to be blazoned all over the airwaves.
I have seen reports about them though, mostly that the Egyptians went around and took a bunch of the leaders. The at this point hasn't been confirmed or denied as far as I've found.

338 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:45:57am

re: #334 sattv4u2

There is reporting on the "MB front"

Just don't expect much of it at this time from Al Jazeera (which is where this all started)

Huh? Why shouldn't I? Because it's unrealistic?

See links above to the NYT and WSJ

Yes, I posted one of those links, thank you very much. The problem with those sources is that they are not "on the front". Al-Jazeera, Al-Arabiya, etc. are.

339 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:46:48am

re: #338 000G

Huh? Why shouldn't I? Because it's unrealistic?

Yes ,, for the reasons I articulated above

340 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:47:34am

re: #337 Jadespring

You're just going under the assumption that people know already and aren't reporting it. That's an assumption based on little except your statements about it being obvious.

It's based on what the reported and known reality was before the protests and then the "information blackout" took place.

341 Jadespring  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:47:49am

re: #330 000G

I didn't say judgement is what's needed now – what's needed is honest speculation, based on solid information brought forth by reporting. I have a hard time believing there is nothing much to report on the MB front…

Key word there---solid information- Good luck in getting that when things are this chaotic. The only thing solid right now is if someone spills the beans or whatever you're seeing in front of your face. So unless the brotherhood is marching around with banners and saying 'we are the brotherhood' good luck at getting the 'solid' factor.

This sort of thing will come after, when there's time to sit down and sort through what's BS and what isn't BS and who was doing what and when.

342 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:47:51am

I've created a page for Egypt news coverage links.

Right now there's a link to live English-language coverage by Al-Jazeera and a newspaper-format printed news.

As others are found, I'll add them to the page.

343 albusteve  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:48:19am

re: #338 000G

Huh? Why shouldn't I? Because it's unrealistic?

Yes, I posted one of those links, thank you very much. The problem with those sources is that they are not "on the front". Al-Jazeera, Al-Arabiya, etc. are.

you got ants in your pants dude

345 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:49:22am

re: #213 Walter L. Newton

You're great when you're not trolling ;-)

346 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:49:41am

re: #339 sattv4u2

Huh? Why shouldn't I? Because it's unrealistic?

Yes ,, for the reasons I articulated above

And again, I think that's not getting one anywhere. If one is for democratic change in Egypt, one must also be for fair, accurate and investigative reporting. If the realistic option was always the only one, revolutions would never take place.

347 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:49:42am

re: #319 RogueOne

I'm having a hard time understanding your argument. Are you saying westerners should sit on the sidelines and not offer any type of help? Can you flesh out your thoughts just a bit?

Help what? You also just said that the Muslim Brotherhood is going to come out on top.

I think that Egyptians can manage to have a revolution without having to be taught how to have a revolution by oh-so-enlightened western dilletantes. And, in general, I think that outside influence, especially Western influence, in the Middle East tends to have the absolutely opposite effect; it's seen as neo-colonialism at best and outright puppetry by the US and the West at worst.

So yes, I'm saying Western intervention has a historically terrible fucking record in the Middle East.

And that means I also thought Biden should shut up about the situation, too.

348 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:51:52am

re: #345 Sergey Romanov

You're great when you're not trolling ;-)

Thanks... but a person not agree with my sarcastic comment would be calling me a troll.

Whatever.

349 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:52:42am

re: #335 sattv4u2

Similar images

So?

350 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:53:00am

re: #346 000G

And again, I think that's not getting one anywhere. If one is for democratic change in Egypt, one must also be for fair, accurate and investigative reporting. If the realistic option was always the only one, revolutions would never take place.

You're assuming that Al Jazeera is for "democratic change in Egypt," and thus will "be for fair, accurate and investigative reporting."

Houston, we've found the problem!

351 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:53:51am

re: #350 sattv4u2

You're assuming that Al Jazeera is for "democratic change in Egypt," and thus will "be for fair, accurate and investigative reporting."

Houston, we've found the problem!

Of course they are... fair and balanced and all that!

352 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:53:56am

I think the best thing we can do right now is use the situation to pressure the fuck out of Murabak to make real democratic reforms and to stop the crackdown immediately.

He almost certainly wouldn't, but whatever.

353 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:53:57am

re: #349 000G

So?

shhhhhh

(((makes the photos less "amazing")))

354 Jadespring  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:54:45am

re: #346 000G

And again, I think that's not getting one anywhere. If one is for democratic change in Egypt, one must also be for fair, accurate and investigative reporting. If the realistic option was always the only one, revolutions would never take place.

Do you not realize how hard it is to do 'fair, accurate and investigated reporting' when a protest/revolution is going on? Especially when the reporters and news media that are on the ground are being beaten up, arrested, detained, contained and have a good part of their communications cut off?

Your expecting a shitload that just isn't possible. Wait for a bit. You'll get what your after.

355 albusteve  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:55:59am

re: #352 Obdicut

I think the best thing we can do right now is use the situation to pressure the fuck out of Murabak to make real democratic reforms and to stop the crackdown immediately.

He almost certainly wouldn't, but whatever.

huh?...sounds contrary to what you just posted

356 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:57:41am

re: #342 reine.de.tout

I've created a page for Egypt news coverage links.

Right now there's a link to live English-language coverage by Al-Jazeera and a newspaper-format printed news.

As others are found, I'll add them to the page.


Al-Jaz tv feed:
WOW

357 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:01:08am

And on that note,, I have to go give an RF Safety training class

358 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:02:59am

re: #357 sattv4u2

And on that note,, I have to go give an RF Safety training class

Rule One

1) Never work in an installation that has antenna larger than a corporate jet. (check).

359 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:04:05am

re: #355 albusteve

huh?...sounds contrary to what you just posted

How so?

360 RogueOne  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:04:22am

re: #347 Obdicut

Help what? You also just said that the Muslim Brotherhood is going to come out on top.

I also gave my reasoning behind that assessment.


I think that Egyptians can manage to have a revolution without having to be taught how to have a revolution by oh-so-enlightened western dilletantes. And, in general, I think that outside influence, especially Western influence, in the Middle East tends to have the absolutely opposite effect; it's seen as neo-colonialism at best and outright puppetry by the US and the West at worst.

So yes, I'm saying Western intervention has a historically terrible fucking record in the Middle East.

And that means I also thought Biden should shut up about the situation, too.

I partially agree, "western interventionism" has been a disaster but I see no problem with pro-freedom types doing what they can to lend a hand. I disagree that it's akin to "colonialism" to support people rioting against a what is essentially a dictatorship. "He's a dictator but he's our dictator" doesn't fly with me which is why I've never been a fan of the "realist" foreign policy types. I've said for as long as I've been political that it's up to the free people of the planet to do what they can to end dictatorships. The fact that BB is an ass doesn't change that.

361 Gus  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:06:21am

Nothing I have ever said has affected the outcome of world events. On Egypt, I think I'll just watch with slight interest.

The NY Times is reporting that the economy grew by 3.2 percent in the last quarter of 2010.

362 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:06:57am

re: #359 Obdicut

How so?

In one post you state

"the best thing we can do right now is use the situation to pressure the fuck out of Murabak"

yet in a previous one you said

"So yes, I'm saying Western intervention has a historically terrible fucking record in the Middle East."

So it looks as if you're both calling for Western intervention yet railing against it at the same time

363 albusteve  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:07:18am

Clinton's urging of Mubarak to make reforms and refrain from the temptation to simply crack down reflects lessons learned by the U.S. from the fall of other friendly autocrats, from the Shah of Iran in 1979 to Tunisia's Zine el Abidine Ben Ali earlier this month. Those governments failed to recognize the depth of popular anger and make sufficient political and economic concessions to defuse it. The Obama Administration is simply urging Mubarak to do what is necessary to preserve his regime — while recognizing that the order to fire on unarmed fellow citizens can provoke a crisis in the security forces that can bring down the regime.

the BO admin is caught between a rock and a hard place...what if democratic reform doesn't favor moderation toward Israel?....clearly we are supporting a despot for one reason only

Read more: [Link: www.time.com...]

364 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:07:44am

good Morning all!

Assange to be on 60 minutes.

yawn.

How are you-all?

365 albusteve  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:07:50am

re: #359 Obdicut

How so?

how so what?

366 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:08:12am

re: #360 RogueOne

I also gave my reasoning behind that assessment.

Sure. I'm not arguing with that assessment. I don't know enough about the politics and demographics of Egypt to even begin that analysis of who will come out on top.

I partially agree, "western interventionism" has been a disaster but I see no problem with pro-freedom types doing what they can to lend a hand.

How does the first part and the last part of that sentence go together?

I disagree that it's akin to "colonialism" to support people rioting against a what is essentially a dictatorship.

I didn't say it was, I said it was seen as such.

"He's a dictator but he's our dictator" doesn't fly with me which is why I've never been a fan of the "realist" foreign policy types.

Doesn't fly with me, either.

I've said for as long as I've been political that it's up to the free people of the planet to do what they can to end dictatorships.

I'm not saying people shouldn't do what they can, I'm saying that there's very little that they can do. The largest way that we can achieve foreign policy goals of democratic reforms is mainly through alternative energy research, and beyond that, economic maneuvering. And, of course, direct pressure on leaders themselves, though if Wikileaks keeps leaking all diplomatic contact, that'll actually be useless and fucked now too.

367 Jadespring  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:09:05am

Well I suppose I should get my butt going. I have a conference to go to and a three hour drive before that.

368 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:09:34am

re: #362 sattv4u2

In one post you state

"the best thing we can do right now is use the situation to pressure the fuck out of Murabak"

yet in a previous one you said

"So yes, I'm saying Western intervention has a historically terrible fucking record in the Middle East."

So it looks as if you're both calling for Western intervention yet railing against it at the same time

That is not a contradiction. taking the statements at face value, Obdicut is simply saying the we should pressure the fuck out of Mubarack and we will screw that up.

Geeesssh... a child could see that.

369 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:09:47am

re: #362 sattv4u2

Heh. There's a huge difference between privately pressuring a leader to be more democratic and openly aiding the revolutionaries. Of course, as I said above, if Wikileaks is going to reveal all of that diplomatic negotiation, then you're right.

What I'm saying is that Westerners openly aiding one side of a civil conflict can easily be seen as, and portrayed as, them co-opting that movement.

370 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:10:20am

re: #368 Walter L. Newton

That is not a contradiction. taking the statements at face value, Obdicut is simply saying the we should pressure the fuck out of Mubarack and we will screw that up.

Geeesssh... a child could see that.

DOH

371 BryanS  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:11:15am

[Link: thelede.blogs.nytimes.com...]


In an incredible scene in Alexandria, the site of a more than two-hour pitched street battle ended with protesters and police shaking hands and sharing water bottles on the same street corner where minutes before they were exchanging hails of stones and tear-gas canisters were arcing through the sky. Thousands stood on the six-lane coastal road, the gentle green waves of the Mediterranean at their backs, as they got on their knees and prayed.

"The people want to topple the regime," the crowd called in unison, using the familiar Tunisian chant.

"It's clear that the very extensive police force in Egypt is no longer able to control these crowds. There are too many protests in too many places. So now the real danger is that Mubarak might call out the army," said Peter Bouckaert, emergencies director of Human Rights Watch, who observed the street battle in Alexandria Friday.
"A lot of it is about the pent-up frustration of not being allowd to express their opinions," said Mr. Bouckaert.
"What's really amazing is even after all of this violence people were still trying to tell their fellow protesters to be peaceful."


When the police stop trying to do their jobs, it is a clear sign the regime is unraveling.

372 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:11:35am

Iraqi Women Wed To Insurgents Find Little Hope

The movement started with Saddam loyalists and militants from neighboring countries whose aim was to fight Americans. Then they turned on their Shiite countrymen.

Now they seek to destabilize what they see as a U.S.-backed, Shiite-led government.

Caught up in all of this are the wives: the women who provide the insurgents with food, shelter, children — and sometimes help. Now that militants have been caught or killed, it's the women who are left behind.

373 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:12:20am

re: #371 BryanS

That's really awesome. I hope it lasts. The shooting yesterday was troubling, to say the least.

374 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:14:47am

re: #371 BryanS

Save the library.

375 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:15:38am

re: #374 Walter L. Newton

Save the library.

I'm still upset about the Library!

376 RogueOne  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:15:58am

re: #366 Obdicut

Sure. I'm not arguing with that assessment. I don't know enough about the politics and demographics of Egypt to even begin that analysis of who will come out on top.

How does the first part and the last part of that sentence go together?
....

The intervention was never about what was best for the people of egypt, only what helped our ME security goals. We're happy to embrace assholes as long as they're our assholes. I'm rooting for the people of egypt but I'm concerned that this could backfire badly. OTOH, going from bad to worse might end up being necessary in the long run. If so, god help them.

377 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:16:40am

Y'all be nice to each other.

378 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:17:11am

re: #377 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Y'all be nice to each other.

Why?

379 Gus  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:18:03am
380 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:18:30am

re: #378 Walter L. Newton

Good point.

As you were.

381 Gus  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:18:43am

Oops, wrong picture.

Burp.

382 RogueOne  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:19:00am

re: #379 Gus 802

Biden is the proof that being in government for decades makes you dumber.

383 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:19:58am

re: #379 Gus 802

Only right-wing officials are allowed to look dictators in the eye and get sense of their soul. Didn't you get the memo?

384 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:19:58am

The Crisis Reports: A Literary Analysis

The majority and minority reports agree on a lot. They both point to the proliferation of exotic mortgages, the failures of regulators, the incompetence of Wall Street managers.

So why come out with these two separate versions? A lot of it comes down to one sentence in the majority report — a sentence that appears near the very beginning:

We conclude this financial crisis was avoidable.

385 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:20:03am

re: #382 RogueOne

Biden is the proof that being in government for decades makes you dumber.

I have a feeling Biden is like water

He's always been at his own level!

386 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:20:10am

re: #379 Gus 802

Every year at Halloween, a local bar has a waiter who hangs a potato out of his zipper.

Yeah. You guessed. He's a "Dick-Tater".

Every year.

Fortunately, he does change potatoes annually.

387 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:21:42am

The looong road home beckons me.

388 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:23:05am

re: #386 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Every year at Halloween, a local bar has a waiter who hangs a potato out of his zipper.

Yeah. You guessed. He's a "Dick-Tater".

Every year.

Fortunately, he does change potatoes annually.

No... eh... I didn't guess it. I don't find my mind making immediate word-play connection when someone talks about another persons crotch.

Social misfit I am.

389 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:23:20am

re: #387 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The looong road home beckons me.

HEY ,,!!!!

Use your own material!

390 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:24:00am

re: #386 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Every year at Halloween, a local bar has a waiter who hangs a potato out of his zipper.

Yeah. You guessed. He's a "Dick-Tater".

Every year.

Fortunately, he does change potatoes annually.

But I did misread "annually" and thought you said "anally." That potato been around the block.

391 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:24:17am
392 albusteve  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:25:07am

re: #384 ggt

The Crisis Reports: A Literary Analysis



We conclude this financial crisis was avoidable.

no shit...as if events just fall outa the sky
Fannie and Freddie should come up for full blown congressional investigations, as well as the behavior of the feds with regard to the lenders....the people deserve to know exactly how it all went down

393 BryanS  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:25:20am
RT @AJELive: AJ Arabic - Protesters control the streets of Suez in #Egypt. 3 armored vehicles set alight #Jan25 [Link: twitpic.com...]
394 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:26:18am

re: #390 Walter L. Newton

"anally." That potato been around the block.

explains the "blockage"!

395 Gus  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:26:49am

re: #383 Sergey Romanov

Only right-wing officials are allowed to look dictators in the eye and get sense of their soul. Didn't you get the memo?

I look forward to the coming revisionism. Suddenly, Mubarak will be seen as a dictator by the writers at NRO (and other right wing allies) after years of uncritical support including 8 years of the Bush administration. Much of this of course will hinge on the final outcome of course and whatever lasting influence the MB will have.

396 RogueOne  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:27:02am

I haven't read anything about how this might affect Israel. They must be pretty nervous about now.

397 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:27:21am

re: #392 albusteve

Again: Fannie and Freddie didn't create the crisis.

[Link: nationaljournal.com...]

The risk-hiding behavior of the financial instruments created by Wall Street was done entirely of their own volition.

It was the derivative products-- and Fannie and Freddie didn't create derivative products.

398 Randy W. Weeks  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:28:41am

OT, but...my best friend 'liked' Sarah Palin on Facebook yesterday.

That was a serious 'WTF?' moment for me. Hopefully he was just drunk.

399 albusteve  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:28:48am

re: #391 ggt

oh my!

yeah, someone said this was a health care issue and should be covered at taxpayers expense...should have saved that post

400 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:29:41am

re: #391 ggt

oh my!

I just asked my girlfriend, who lived in Berkeley and graduated college there if the city does these thing on purpose... she said yes... she said the actually make an effort to be as different as possible.

I guess that could be helpful. Just like you have the DSM III as a reference to mental illness, you have Berkeley as a reference to fucked up politics. The world should be grateful.

401 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:30:09am

re: #398 LoneStarSpur

OT, but...my best friend 'liked' Sarah Palin on Facebook yesterday.

That was a serious 'WTF?' moment for me. Hopefully he was just drunk.

Hopefully he won't read her for, you know, just the articles.

402 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:30:32am

re: #396 RogueOne

I haven't read anything about how this might affect Israel. They must be pretty nervous about now.

Especially if it culminates in the easing of the border between Egypt and the Gaza strip

iirc,, the Egyptians were honoring the blockade there

403 laZardo  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:32:31am

re: #396 RogueOne

I haven't read anything about how this might affect Israel. They must be pretty nervous about now.

Shit hits the fan, it's back into Gaza with them.

And speaking of which, I'm not sure how it would affect the West Bank, either.

404 Gus  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:32:50am

re: #399 albusteve

yeah, someone said this was a health care issue and should be covered at taxpayers expense...should have saved that post

Wow. They're going to set aside 20 grand. That's surely going to break the bank. But I guess transsexualism still makes people uncomfortable.

405 albusteve  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:33:00am

re: #397 Obdicut

Again: Fannie and Freddie didn't create the crisis.

[Link: nationaljournal.com...]

The risk-hiding behavior of the financial instruments created by Wall Street was done entirely of their own volition.

It was the derivative products-- and Fannie and Freddie didn't create derivative products.

maybe you misread my post

406 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:34:29am

"I suppose the unusual thing about me is I'm a transsexual woman," Riordan said. "They estimate 1 in 50,000 are born this way."

It isn't life threatening and there are a lot of other problems with a higher prevalence that are either life threatening or seriously disabling.

Each municipality has it's choice. As I understand it, this is a separate fund they keep.

I don't get it.

407 RogueOne  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:37:30am
408 Gus  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:37:44am

Must be that time for Little Green Transphobia.

409 blueraven  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:39:36am

Breaking: Mohamed El Baradei under house arrest in Egypt.

410 RogueOne  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:40:21am

re: #409 blueraven

Breaking: Mohamed El Baradei under house arrest in Egypt.

There's a shocker/

411 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:40:36am

re: #354 Jadespring

Do you not realize how hard it is to do 'fair, accurate and investigated reporting' when a protest/revolution is going on? Especially when the reporters and news media that are on the ground are being beaten up, arrested, detained, contained and have a good part of their communications cut off?

I realize it is hard. Even so, silence is not acceptable. The least could be "Sorry, we cannot report anything on the obviously important MB because we have no clue of what's going on with that".

412 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:40:44am

re: #409 blueraven

Breaking: Mohamed El Baradei under house arrest in Egypt.

(I think I can get away with the thought for a third time)

Well, I bet they didn't find any nuclear weapons in his house.

413 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:41:12am

re: #353 sattv4u2

shhh

(((makes the photos less "amazing")))

Not to me. They can be amazing and yet frightening or horrifying.

414 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:42:04am

NOW we know--kinda.

415 lostlakehiker  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:43:15am

What Fannie and Freddie did was accommodate a lot of risk taking, buying paper they shouldn't have. That was risky and F&F got burned. That is, we got burned. We didn't vote for such reckless policy. We didn't write laws that permitted it. We just got stuck.

417 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:45:57am

re: #397 Obdicut
I just started reading the report yesterday, so I have only heard summations.
Partisans appear unable to fairly read the report at all.

But-Would it be fair to say the Fannie & Freddie had zero negative impact on the housing bust? I think that would be an exaggeration. Would you agree?

It seems to me they shared a part by giving loans to those who simply could not afford them, or at the least had inadequate backup in the event of a layoff or pay cut. I observed many loan qualification standards fell to a "wink and a nod" all across the home real estate landscape. Real estate was one big facet, wall street another. People who simply did not qualify by old school standards were able to buy in to so many things. Stocks, homes, second homes... Without adequate savings and or incomes.

Of course Wall street made derivatives out of bad home loans overlapping the whole damn thing. Phil Angelides is right about this-We do not yet have adequate reform on Wall street and we do risk a repeat.

To be fair, many standards were allowed to fall to soften previous recessions, in pursuit of the "soft landing" time and time again. Twenty years or more. Multiple administrations and congresses.

Partisans appear unable to fairly read the report at all.

418 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:45:58am

re: #415 lostlakehiker

What Fannie and Freddie did was accommodate a lot of risk taking, buying paper they shouldn't have. That was risky and F&F got burned. That is, we got burned. We didn't vote for such reckless policy. We didn't write laws that permitted it. We just got stuck.

As I see it, in my simplistic way, a lot of individuals bought houses they couldn't realistically afford, the system let them get mortgages, the system failed and the rest of us have to pay for the individuals mistakes.

419 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:47:08am

re: #415 lostlakehiker

What Fannie and Freddie did was accommodate a lot of risk taking, buying paper they shouldn't have. That was risky and F&F got burned. That is, we got burned. We didn't vote for such reckless policy. We didn't write laws that permitted it. We just got stuck.

Did you bother to read the article I posted above?

420 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:48:23am

re: #418 ggt

That is ignoring the creation of the derivatives, though, which are the most important part of this. Derivatives repacked risky debt into 'attractive' options by hiding and disguising their risk. Financial institutions made financial instruments so complex that even they didn't really understand them, and then sold them.

Read the article I posted above.

421 iossarian  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:49:35am

re: #415 lostlakehiker

[...] We didn't vote for such reckless policy. [...]

Actually, if you voted for any politician who has ever uttered the words "public-private partnership" (which includes, to their discredit, a lot of Democrats), then you did indeed vote for "such reckless policy".

422 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:49:53am

re: #420 Obdicut

That is ignoring the creation of the derivatives, though, which are the most important part of this. Derivatives repacked risky debt into 'attractive' options by hiding and disguising their risk. Financial institutions made financial instruments so complex that even they didn't really understand them, and then sold them.

Read the article I posted above.

I thought I covered derivatives in "the system let them get mortgages".

423 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:51:28am

re: #422 ggt

I thought I covered derivatives in "the system let them get mortgages".

That's not what derivatives are. Please read the article I posted.

Here it is again:

[Link: nationaljournal.com...]

Beyond that, the seeds of the financial crash of 2008 were planted decades before the subprime securitization market took off. Some of the books that came out after the financial disaster would encourage another myth -- that the super-complex subprime securities known as “collateralized debt obligations,” or CDOs, were unique. And that therefore the subprime mortgage crisis was also a unique disaster. “The collateralized debt obligation may well go down in history as the worst thing anyone on Wall Street has ever thought up,” wrote David Faber of CNBC in one quickie book, And Then the Roof Caved In.

But Faber’s description slighted a long lineage of such complex derivatives and structured finance products going back to the early 1990s. Such problems were so prevalent that Brooksley Born, then head of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission, called them “the hippopotamus under the rug.” The key to many successful derivatives trades was just as much deception back then as it later became during the subprime craze. “Quants” on the street -- many of them former physicists or other math geniuses -- were always finding complex new ways to repackage assets. The schemes usually followed the same theme: The key was to take junk or crap -- risky but very high-yielding bonds or securities denominated in pesos or Thai baht or Malaysian ringgits -- and disguise them well enough so that pension investors or insurance companies or others thought they were buying investment-grade stuff denominated in dollars. This was merely an augury of what these same firms later did by euphemizing poor credit risks as “subprime borrowers.”

424 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:53:09am

re: #423 Obdicut

That's not what derivatives are. Please read the article I posted.

Here it is again:

[Link: nationaljournal.com...]

I understand derivatives. Perhaps I lumped too much into one category in an effort to be brief.

425 RogueOne  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:53:22am

The U.S. dodges a bullet (metaphorically), Indiana might not...

Pence shuts 1 door, leaves another open
Mike Pence won't run for president; maybe governor?
[Link: www.indystar.com...]

426 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:53:26am

re: #417 Rightwingconspirator

But-Would it be fair to say the Fannie & Freddie had zero negative impact on the housing bust? I think that would be an exaggeration. Would you agree?

The housing bust was in no way the sum total of the financial disaster; the packaging of risk into derivatives that masked the risk was the real disaster. The housing bust was the trigger.

It seems to me they shared a part by giving loans to those who simply could not afford them, or at the least had inadequate backup in the event of a layoff or pay cut. I observed many loan qualification standards fell to a "wink and a nod" all across the home real estate landscape.

But their loans had a lower default rate than the industry average.


Of course Wall street made derivatives out of bad home loans overlapping the whole damn thing. Phil Angelides is right about this-We do not yet have adequate reform on Wall street and we do risk a repeat.

Absolutely. And not just bad home loans; that's one of the things that I'm pointing out. The derivatives were made out of peso stocks, out of lots and lots of random junk. It was just that the mortgages were a big chunk, and their blowup started the avalanche.

427 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:56:47am

re: #424 ggt

Derivatives have nothing to do with the system letting people get mortgages.

It has to do with the packaging of risky assets in a manner that disguises their risk.

Let me put it this way: Giving out mortgages and letting the housing prices explode created the risk. The derivatives disguised the risk, preventing the market from assessing their price accurately, and leading to incredible financial instability.

Risk on its own, a boom and bust market, is bad. But derivatives hiding the risk is what blew up the financial industry. Without that, we'd still have a huge problem, but it wouldn't have devastated the financial industry to at all the same extent.

428 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:57:38am

re: #426 Obdicut

But their loans had a lower default rate than the industry average.

Do you have a source for that at hand?

429 Interesting Times  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:57:43am

re: #420 Obdicut

Financial institutions made financial instruments so complex that even they didn't really understand them, and then sold them.

I wish that kind of thing were illegal.

430 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:58:16am

re: #426 Obdicut
Okay we do agree, note I make no claim Fannie and Freddie are the sum, or caused the crash. I advocate a full blown return to the old school standards to get real estate loans, buy stocks etc. 3 months income in an unencumbered savings account. Including IRA's etc. The post crash default rate helps prove my point.

431 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:59:56am

re: #427 Obdicut

Derivatives have nothing to do with the system letting people get mortgages.

It has to do with the packaging of risky assets in a manner that disguises their risk.

Let me put it this way: Giving out mortgages and letting the housing prices explode created the risk. The derivatives disguised the risk, preventing the market from assessing their price accurately, and leading to incredible financial instability.

Risk on its own, a boom and bust market, is bad. But derivatives hiding the risk is what blew up the financial industry. Without that, we'd still have a huge problem, but it wouldn't have devastated the financial industry to at all the same extent.

Even the definition you gave, while reasonable for much of the issue that led to the financial implosion overlooks things like AIG's Credit Default Swaps. The numbers on paper simply weren't real.

432 RogueOne  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:01:26am

Another reason to like Daniels (especially for Hoosiers), he has his priorities straight:

Daniels skipped Obama speech to watch Purdue
[Link: www.indystar.com...]


President Obama's State of the Union speech drew a television audience of 42.8 million people, but Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels wasn't one of them.

Daniels was instead keeping an eye on the Purdue-Ohio State men's college basketball game, which tipped off about the same time on cable sports channel ESPN. Daniels admitted he decided to "Boiler Up" instead of watch the State Of The Union address.

"You caught me. I didn't watch it. I was watching the Purdue game as long as it was watchable," Daniels told West Lafayette's WFLI-TV on Wednesday.

It was supposed to be a great game but instead it turned into a beat down.

433 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:02:16am

re: #409 blueraven

Via the WSJ:

Egyptian security officials say Nobel Peace laureate Mohamed ElBaradei is under house arrest, the AP reported. Police stationed outside his suburban Cairo home told him he cannot leave the house after he joined tens of thousands of protesters in the capital Friday.

Earlier, police used water cannons against Mr. ElBaradei and his supporters as they joined the latest wave of protests after Friday noon prayers. Police also used batons to beat some of Mr. ElBaradei’s supporters, who surrounded him to protect him.

Mr. Elebaradei, who has spent much of his life outisde Egypt, returned to the country late Thursday, greeted by friends and some supporters. “It is a critical time in the life of Egypt,” he told reporters upon his arrival. “I wish we didn’t have to go into the streets to impress upon the regime that they have to change.”

434 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:02:52am

An aside: Loans are not bad for risking default, loans are bad if they are not backed up by collateral, risky or not. If the lender cannot seize any property collateralized for the loan by the borrower, the lender takes the economic hit through default, not the borrower.

435 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:03:44am

Which is, of course, fleeing the lender, and ultimatively especially the lender of last resort, i.e. the government.

436 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:04:03am

re: #435 000G

fleecing, not fleeing. PIMF.

437 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:04:40am

My page with Egypt links is about to disappear from "recent pages".

For anyone interested, there's a link to Al-Jazeera live streaming coverage of what's going on, and a link to a site with written reports.

I'll BBL.

438 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:05:36am

re: #427 Obdicut

Derivatives have nothing to do with the system letting people get mortgages.

It has to do with the packaging of risky assets in a manner that disguises their risk.

Let me put it this way: Giving out mortgages and letting the housing prices explode created the risk. The derivatives disguised the risk, preventing the market from assessing their price accurately, and leading to incredible financial instability.

Risk on its own, a boom and bust market, is bad. But derivatives hiding the risk is what blew up the financial industry. Without that, we'd still have a huge problem, but it wouldn't have devastated the financial industry to at all the same extent.

As I understand it, the big problem was that the CDO's (high risk, high profit) were so profitable that the stockholders of companies/banks that usually did not take such risk wanted to get some of the profits, so they pressured banks and lending companies to lower their standards. Pushing the market past it's limit.

439 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:05:57am

re: #434 000G

An aside: Loans are not bad for risking default, loans are bad if they are not backed up by collateral, risky or not. If the lender cannot seize any property collateralized for the loan by the borrower, the lender takes the economic hit through default, not the borrower.

Unless you take out insurance on the loan.I.E a credit default swap. Which of course in our unregulated markets, you can also sell onto 3rd parties. Which means someone else benefits if your loan defaults. In any sort of common sense world, this wouldn't make sense. But the financial derivatives market was so out of touch with any sort of reality this type of arrangement was common.

440 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:06:14am

re: #428 000G

Do you have a source for that at hand?

[Link: www.mcclatchydc.com...]

Between 2004 and 2006, when subprime lending was exploding, Fannie and Freddie went from holding a high of 48 percent of the subprime loans that were sold into the secondary market to holding about 24 percent, according to data from Inside Mortgage Finance, a specialty publication. One reason is that Fannie and Freddie were subject to tougher standards than many of the unregulated players in the private sector who weakened lending standards, most of whom have gone bankrupt or are now in deep trouble.

And it's important to note that Fannie and Freddie aren't loaners, they're securers. They were better-regulated, and so prevented from taking on as much risk as the private markets did.

441 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:06:36am

re: #432 RogueOne

Another reason to like Daniels (especially for Hoosiers), he has his priorities straight:

Daniels skipped Obama speech to watch Purdue
[Link: www.indystar.com...]

It was supposed to be a great game but instead it turned into a beat down.

You must not understand Indiana.

NOTHING is more important than basketball.

442 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:07:38am

re: #439 McSpiff

Unless you take out insurance on the loan.I.E a credit default swap. Which of course in our unregulated markets, you can also sell onto 3rd parties. Which means someone else benefits if your loan defaults. In any sort of common sense world, this wouldn't make sense. But the financial derivatives market was so out of touch with any sort of reality this type of arrangement was common.

Yeah, learning about unsecured liabilities being traded as assets was baffling to me, back in 2007.

443 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:08:43am

re: #438 ggt

As I understand it, the big problem was that the CDO's (high risk, high profit) were so profitable that the stockholders of companies/banks that usually did not take such risk wanted to get some of the profits, so they pressured banks and lending companies to lower their standards. Pushing the market past it's limit.

Ye-es, well, I think in many cases the institutions were the same, and so they didn't need pressure, they just did it themselves. and I'd say rather than pressure, in general, it was just the performance of the market-- there was a huge demand for CDOs and other risk-hiding instruments, and so they got produced like mad, and one of the best ways to produce them was through risky mortgages.

But basically, yes, I agree with you.

444 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:09:17am

re: #442 000G

Yeah, learning about unsecured liabilities being traded as assets was baffling to me, back in 2007.

Charles or a Lizard posted a very good video on the Derivatives concept way back when. Nice and detailed with proper vocabulary and all.

It was mind boggling that bankers would fall for it.

445 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:10:15am

re: #444 ggt

They didn't fall for it. They created derivatives. They were the architects of the whole shebang.

And unless we regulate better, it will happen again and again.

446 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:10:48am

re: #443 Obdicut

Ye-es, well, I think in many cases the institutions were the same, and so they didn't need pressure, they just did it themselves. and I'd say rather than pressure, in general, it was just the performance of the market-- there was a huge demand for CDOs and other risk-hiding instruments, and so they got produced like mad, and one of the best ways to produce them was through risky mortgages.

But basically, yes, I agree with you.

So, the system let individuals who couldn't afford homes, get mortgages.

Like I said, I lumped a whole lot together to be brief.

447 Randy W. Weeks  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:12:03am

The twitter #egypt hash is fucking amazing.

448 Ericus58  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:13:11am

BBC live written updates from various sources:
[Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]

449 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:13:14am

re: #446 ggt

Right, but if it wasn't that, it would have been something else. There's always plenty of risk out there. The mortgages weren't the cause, just the trigger. That's all I'm saying. Even if we regulate the fuck out of the mortgages market, it won't matter, because they'll just make derivatives out of some other incredibly high-risk market, as they have done in the past.

450 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:14:59am

re: #444 ggt

Charles or a Lizard posted a very good video on the Derivatives concept way back when. Nice and detailed with proper vocabulary and all.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

451 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:15:05am

re: #445 Obdicut

They didn't fall for it. They created derivatives. They were the architects of the whole shebang.

And unless we regulate better, it will happen again and again.

Here is where I am horrible at remembering vocabulary.

The financial world has at least two divisions. One deals with the public and one deals with itself. There are banks that deal with the public (category 1)-for purposes of this post)and banks that only deal with other banks (category 2). This can fall under the same corporate structure, but there is a division within the structure--right? "Banks" for our purposes meaning "financial institutions".

As long as the CDO's remained a product traded between category 2, all was going fine. It's when they tried to expand profits by allowing cagegory 1 in on the CDO game, that things really went bad.

?????

452 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:15:49am

re: #450 000G

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

DAMN you are good!

453 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:17:46am

More on Fannie and Freddie:

[Link: firsttuesdayjournal.com...]

82% of SFR mortgages acquired by Fannie and Freddie had LTVs of 80% or less. Mortgages with LTVs greater than 80% but at or less than 90%, and mortgages with LTVs greater than 90% each comprise 9% of all SFR mortgages acquired by Fannie and Freddie between 2001 and 2008, totaling 18% of all their mortgages.

Roughly 66% of SFR mortgages financed through private-label MBBs had LTVs at or below 80%. Mortgages associated with LTVs greater than 80% but at or less than 90% comprised 20% of all mortgages financed through private-label MBBs, while another one-tenth of the mortgages financed through private-label MBBs were associated with LTVs greater than 90%. Thus, 30% of all private-label mortgages had LTVs of 80% or more.

...

Approximately 5% of FRMs and 10% of ARMs acquired by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were 90-days delinquent at some point before 2009.

By contrast, approximately 20% of FRMs and 30% of ARMs financed through private-label MBBs were 90-days delinquent by the end of 2009 — three to four times riskier than GSE mortgages.


If private industry had been as risk-adverse and well-regulated as the Fannies, we wouldn't have had a sub-prime crisis.

454 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:21:15am

re: #453 Obdicut

More on Fannie and Freddie:

[Link: firsttuesdayjournal.com...]

...


If private industry had been as risk-adverse and well-regulated as the Fannies, we wouldn't have had a sub-prime crisis.

This is the tough part for me.

Individuals who want to take risk should be able to --but they must also be forced to endure the consequences.

It get's much tougher when OUR money is what is being risked. And they are risking the homes of individuals who have NO CONCEPT of the mountains of paper they signed to get that home. Or when their risk threatens the economic stability of the nation.

I have real problems with this stuff, like Soros speculating in a big way with a country's currency.

I don't have the answer.

455 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:22:10am

I gotta go, late already.

Have a great day all!

456 Interesting Times  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:22:25am

re: #453 Obdicut

If private industry had been as risk-adverse and well-regulated as the Fannies, we wouldn't have had a sub-prime crisis.

Community Reinvestment Act had nothing to do with subprime crisis

Not surprisingly given the higher degree of supervision, loans made under the CRA program were made in a more responsible way than other subprime loans. CRA loans carried lower rates than other subprime loans and were less likely to end up securitized into the mortgage-backed securities that have caused so many losses
...
Finally, keep in mind that the Bush administration has been weakening CRA enforcement and the law’s reach since the day it took office. The CRA was at its strongest in the 1990s, under the Clinton administration, a period when subprime loans performed quite well. It was only after the Bush administration cut back on CRA enforcement that problems arose, a timing issue which should stop those blaming the law dead in their tracks. The Federal Reserve, too, did nothing but encourage the wild west of lending in recent years. It wasn’t until the middle of 2007 that the Fed decided it was time to crack down on abusive pratices in the subprime lending market. Oops.
457 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:22:28am

Markets flat despite positive GDP numbers because of disappointing Ford and Amazon profits news.

Ford had drop in its profits b/c of charge for debt payments while Amazon earnings fell short of consensus. That led to losses at other Dow components including MSFT. GM also dropped this morning, but the market is still on its way to its ninth consecutive weekly increase in the DJIA.

GE has been on a tear of late, and was again up today by a healthy margin (disclosure - I own GE stock directly and via mutual fund holdings).

458 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:23:00am

re: #454 ggt

Why on earth did you bring Soros into this? Do you think that he's unusual in currency speculation?

I don't get how Soros became the go-to reference of financial badness. Currency speculation is completely standard and engaged in by every financial institution.

459 laZardo  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:24:17am

re: #450 000G

EDUCATIONAL!

460 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:24:33am

re: #458 Obdicut

Why on earth did you bring Soros into this? Do you think that he's unusual in currency speculation?

I don't get how Soros became the go-to reference of financial badness. Currency speculation is completely standard and engaged in by every financial institution.

Because he was the first that came to mind, and I'm late and have to sign-off.

byeeee

461 RogueOne  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:25:28am

re: #441 ggt

You must not understand Indiana.

NOTHING is more important than basketball.

I'm a hoosier! That's why I pointed out, to hoosiers, there was nothing more important on tv than the purdue game. Our gov has his priorities straight.//

462 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:26:44am

re: #460 ggt

Because he was the first that came to mind, and I'm late and have to sign-off.

byeee

Also because he is an individual who should be allowed to risk as he chooses, not a big corporation --technically anyway. Yet the action of an individual can also have great consequences for lots of people.

I know I could come up with better examples if I had more time.

really leaving now.

463 Stauff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:29:49am

Protests are breaking out in Jordan as well:

[Link: english.aljazeera.net...]

464 Ericus58  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:30:19am

Live CNN video feed had a group of Soldiers pushing their armored vehicle down a city street next to a river - I had no access to the audio. Anyone know that might be about?

465 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:30:57am

Soldiers on streets of Cairo for first time...

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

466 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:31:28am

re: #464 Ericus58

Live CNN video feed had a group of Soldiers pushing their armored vehicle down a city street next to a river - I had no access to the audio. Anyone know that might be about?

see cnn front page [Link: www.cnn.com...]

467 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:31:39am

re: #463 Stauff

Protests are breaking out in Jordan as well:

[Link: english.aljazeera.net...]


Yemen, as well, apparently:


re: #108 reine.de.tout

Something going on now in Yemen?

468 charlz  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:31:53am

re: #445 Obdicut

They didn't fall for it. They created derivatives. They were the architects of the whole shebang.

From watching PBS Newshour last night, reps of both the majority and minority on the report agreed that part of the reason for the collapse was that the management of these financial institutions didn't really understand the financial instruments they created and resultant risks.

469 Ericus58  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:32:04am

"France's Foreign Ministry confirms media reports that four French journalists were kidnapped. Ministry spokesman Bernard Valero tells AP all four have now been freed."

470 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:33:14am

re: #468 charlz

And what's worse, they did understand that they didn't understand what they were doing, and did it anyway.

471 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:33:56am

re: #399 albusteve

That was me.

472 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:34:32am

re: #466 Walter L. Newton

see cnn front page [Link: www.cnn.com...]

AlJazeera in English.

473 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:34:58am

re: #463 Stauff

Interesting:


He also accused the government of impoverishing the working class with regressive tax codes which forced the poor to pay a higher proportion of their income as tax.

These protests are really substantial. They're not just about a spike in the price of food.

474 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:35:36am

It's not just risk. There is no absolute avoiding risk. One big problem was uncollateralized credit, which is pretty much as toxic to an economy as counterfeit money. I guess it was largely overlooked as long as the job market was okay and people by large could reasonably be expected to make their regular payments from their paycheck. But again, that is substituting actual assets for low risk (on receiving assets in the future).

475 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:36:12am

re: #456 publicityStunted

CRA was just one of many factors that played a role in the market meltdown and financial crisis.

In no particular order:
1) Fed Reserve keeps interest rates at an extremely low level following the 9/11 attacks to get the economy going after the attacks and recession that immediately preceded the attacks and then pushed the interest rates higher in the middle of the past decade - and ARMs readjusted to higher levels that led to many being unable to repay.
2) Real estate bubble blowing up in a big way. No one should have been expecting double digit increases year over year for years on end, but that's exactly what happened in the past decade, and it came crashing down with a revaluation and realignment towards more historical levels. That readjustment is still ongoing in many markets, but efforts to slow the tide of foreclosures is lengthening the time it is taking for the readjustment since the foreclosures provide additional downward pressure on real estate prices.
3) Lack of regulatory oversight on repackaged real estate paper that ignored risk and prevented any clear understanding of positions held. Paper that was being marketed as class A was in actuality junk status but no one could figure it out without untangling the packaging (which no one was doing). When prices were still rising, everyone didn't seem to have a problem with that paper, but once the markets started collapsing, it became a huge problem for the banks.
4) Banks ignoring basic common sense in addressing their risks and obligations.
5) Consumers (borrowers) ignoring basic common sense in addressing their risks and obligations.
6) Congress ignoring basic common sense in pushing home ownership beyond what should have been reasonable and pushing those with marginal credit into homes they could ill afford even in the best of times.
7) The President ignoring basic common sense in pushing home ownership beyond what should have been reasonable and pushing those with marginal credit into homes they could ill afford even in the best of times.
8) Malfeasance by those in the banking and mortgage issuance business in pushing mortgages on borrowers ill equipped to repay.

I'm sure I've left a few things out, but those are the highlights that come to mind.

476 laZardo  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:37:28am

re: #475 lawhawk

[still trying to go over all of that]

...well, you're the law guy, so. q:

477 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:38:49am

re: #472 reine.de.tout

AlJazeera in English.

Reine... I have no interest in listen to what is going on over there filtered through Al Jazeera English... I've already dealt with them live and on air, and I've seen how they us ex-pat Americans and other English speakers to attract western viewers. I've seen, live and on the air, in action, how the spin a story, with a constant and subtle effort to make the west look wrong.

They are about as fair and balanced as Fox. No Thanks.

478 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:39:51am

This is just fucking sick:

Republicans are trying to make sure that girls who are statutorily raped can't use any federal funding for abortion.

This would mean more women-- more girls-- would have to bear their rapist's children.


[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]


With this legislation, which was introduced last week by Rep. Chris Smith (R-N.J.), Republicans propose that the rape exemption be limited to "forcible rape." This would rule out federal assistance for abortions in many rape cases, including instances of statutory rape, many of which are non-forcible. For example: If a 13-year-old girl is impregnated by a 24-year-old adult, she would no longer qualify to have Medicaid pay for an abortion. (Smith's spokesman did not respond to a call and an email requesting comment.)
479 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:40:07am

re: #477 Walter L. Newton

I dunno. If Fox News reported from Egypt right now, I'd still watch it.

480 laZardo  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:42:17am

re: #479 000G

I dunno. If Fox News reported from Egypt right now, I'd still watch it.

Why send in US troops to BUILD DEMOCARCY when you can have Fox News do it?

///don't know if i'm sarcing D:

481 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:42:27am

re: #477 Walter L. Newton

The live feed is good. It's a reportet and a cameraman in Cairo with direct footage of the protests.

482 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:42:51am

re: #477 Walter L. Newton

Then mute it. They got one of the better video streams of the protests in Cairo and Suez.

483 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:42:54am

Right now Egypt has called a curfew starting in 15 min.... police are massing....

484 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:43:07am

re: #479 000G

I dunno. If Fox News reported from Egypt right now, I'd still watch it.

I've been interview on Al Jazeera English. I saw and was part of the whole process, from the booking of the guests, to the ex-marine information officer turned reporter and his pre-show interviews, to the subtle changes in the "script" when we went live... in short... an ambush.

Watch... fine by me.

485 Ericus58  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:43:18am

re: #478 Obdicut

This is just fucking sick:

Republicans are trying to make sure that girls who are statutorily raped can't use any federal funding for abortion.

This would mean more women-- more girls-- would have to bear their rapist's children.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

The key word in this debate is RAPE. How can anyone that has been RAPED not be protected and funded?

What a Tard.

486 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:43:29am

they just stopped fighting for ~10 min for evening prayers.

487 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:44:47am

Protesters outnumber police in Alexandria, police stations are on fire. At least one protester has been killed.

488 iossarian  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:45:24am

re: #478 Obdicut

Here's the thing (and you know that I agree with you on matters of abortion):

Once someone gets it into their head that the mass of cells is a human being from the moment of conception, and furthermore that a mother does not suffer (much) from bearing a child to term, none of these other arguments in favor of legal abortion is going to sway them.

So for me, those are the two ideas that need to be exposed as false and stupid: "human from the moment of conception" and "mother doesn't incur suffering".

But again, yes, this is sick and wrong.

489 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:45:28am

re: #481 BishopX

The live feed is good. It's a reportet and a cameraman in Cairo with direct footage of the protests.

re: #482 McSpiff

Then mute it. They got one of the better video streams of the protests in Cairo and Suez.

My distaste of Al Jazeera English is personal and emotional. Anyone else want to watch them... fine.

490 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:45:42am

re: #485 Ericus58

They're trying to redefine rape. The article notes that many states don't actually have a definition for 'forcible rape', potentially meaning abortions for all pregnancies resulting from rape in that state would be ineligible for any federal funding, any use of tax-enabled health savings accounts, any health insurance scheme provided through the government.

It's incredible.

It also only keeps the incest provision for those under the age of eighteen. Because it's such a huge benefit for society to have a nineteen year old girl have her own father's child.

What the fuck.

491 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:46:21am

re: #294 ryannon

I see that the antibiotics haven't affected your sense of humor :-)

His snarkiness is obviously not based in midichlorin count. So it's not a Force power. Varek will be relieved, I think...

492 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:46:23am

re: #484 Walter L. Newton

I think getting any reporting now is more important than making sure there is not too much spin on it. Credible sources are not a substitute for a critical audience anyhow.

493 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:47:31am

AJ is pretty clear in it's bias here. They're backing the protesters.

494 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:47:47am

re: #477 Walter L. Newton

Reine... I have no interest in listen to what is going on over there filtered through Al Jazeera English... I've already dealt with them live and on air, and I've seen how they us ex-pat Americans and other English speakers to attract western viewers. I've seen, live and on the air, in action, how the spin a story, with a constant and subtle effort to make the west look wrong.

They are about as fair and balanced as Fox. No Thanks.


Yep, they've just blamed Barrett Brown for the whole damned thing.

495 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:47:48am

re: #492 000G

I think getting any reporting now is more important than making sure there is not too much spin on it. Credible sources are not a substitute for a critical audience anyhow.

I'm not being critical, I am being emotional and personal. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Is there something I can say to make it clearer? Suggestions?

496 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:48:31am

re: #495 Walter L. Newton

I'm not being critical, I am being emotional and personal. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Is there something I can say to make it clearer? Suggestions?

I understand it just fine. No worries.

497 Ericus58  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:49:04am

I feelin' a bit cranky this a.m. .........
*grinds teeth*

498 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:49:18am

re: #495 Walter L. Newton

I'm not being critical, I am being emotional and personal. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Is there something I can say to make it clearer? Suggestions?

Can you give me a 15 second sound bite to sum it up?

499 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:49:38am

re: #386 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Every year at Halloween, a local bar has a waiter who hangs a potato out of his zipper.

Yeah. You guessed. He's a "Dick-Tater".

Every year.

Fortunately, he does change potatoes annually.

That implies he has spudnuts as well.

500 iossarian  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:49:44am

You'd think Al Jazeera could afford to pay a coder who understands "padding-left".

501 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:50:36am

police are shutting down cameras...ahead of the curfew watch until it goes down.

502 Ericus58  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:50:50am

"#1547: Unconfirmed reports say President Hosni Mubarak is preparing to make a statement."

503 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:52:06am

Police ordering Al-Jaz to shut cameras off

504 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:52:10am

The police knocking on the door of Al-Jeezera reminds me of the last broadcasts of Radio Prague... Scary times.

505 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:53:12am

re: #504 McSpiff

The police knocking on the door of Al-Jeezera reminds me of the last broadcasts of Radio Prague... Scary times.

So far so good, live feed continues....

506 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:53:19am

re: #490 Obdicut

It also only keeps the incest provision for those under the age of eighteen. Because it's such a huge benefit for society to have a nineteen year old girl have her own father's child.

Incest is an emotional topic because it often involves caretakers abusing those who they are supposed to take care of. But that is a different issue that can be dealt with in appropriate laws. Banning just outright incest opens the path on the slippery slope of what are fundamentally eugenic considerations from incarcerating consenting adult siblings for sleeping with one another up to miscegenation laws.

507 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:55:03am

re: #506 000G

That's got nothing to do with this, though. This is a bill banning the use of any federal money, including federally-backed health savings accounts, for paying for abortions for women who have become pregnant through incest and want to have that child.

This has nothing to do with criminalizing or banning incest.

508 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:56:08am

re: #507 Obdicut

Then I don't get the relevance of your initial comment about incest.

509 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:56:22am

re: #498 McSpiff

Can you give me a 15 second sound bite to sum it up?

I don't have the web page up on it anymore. Basically it was during the Democrat convention in Denver, they set up an interview with 3 people, to comment live during Clintons convention speech on the budget and finances. Parameters were set for the questions, supposedly to prep us, so we had some idea of subject matter.

They never used any of the prep material, tried bait and switching. One other interviewee wasn't fooled by the switch, he managed to get in a full statement. I wasn't either, but I got about a minute of answer out when the producer realized I wasn't being
cooperative" and cut away back to Clintons speech. The third interviewee either played along at that point or was too stupid to give and intelligent answer anyway.

Later on, doing some research on the show host, I find he was an ex-marine, a information officer for the marines, and was now working for Al Jazeera English.

Nothing that happened is "unusual" in the main stream media, but I just wasn't happy with the whole thing.

510 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:56:36am

Army tanks moving onto the oct 6th bridge in cairo.

511 Ericus58  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:56:44am

Cairo protests: Eyewitness account

[Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]

512 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:56:53am

Shit, convoy of about 3 of 4 APCs heading into Cairo on the Al-Jeezera stream...

513 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:57:08am

Three minutes to curfew.

514 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:57:29am

re: #508 000G

Then I don't get the relevance of your initial comment about incest.

With this bill in place, more often a woman who has become pregnant through her father, who wants to get an abortion, will not be able to. This doesn't do any good for society whatsoever.

I'm not sure what's confusing about that.

515 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:57:36am

president called in the army.

516 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:57:37am

AJ English in Cairo claims the police are knocking on its doors

Live feed [Link: english.aljazeera.net...]

517 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:58:00am

President orders army in Cairo to enforce curfew.

518 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:58:33am

Barrett Brown: "It's not my fucking fault."

519 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:59:52am

Mubarak party HQ is smoking "not on fire"

520 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:00:10am

re: #514 Obdicut

With this bill in place, more often a woman who has become pregnant through her father, who wants to get an abortion, will not be able to. This doesn't do any good for society whatsoever.

I'm not sure what's confusing about that.

I am thinking that laws that deal with rape should be concerned with a good outcome for individuals, not society.

521 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:00:23am

re: #518 ryannon

Barrett Brown: "It's not my fucking fault."

Neuromancer ===> Cairomancer

522 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:00:40am

re: #517 ryannon

President orders army in Cairo to enforce curfew.

I really wish Obama and Biden had both kept their mouths shut about this. Obama's remarks, in the context of Biden's, are being taken as condemnatory of the protests.

523 Ericus58  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:00:50am

re: #511 Ericus58

Cairo protests: Eyewitness account

[Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]

"It's not just a small group. It's not the MB. It's not a religious movement... It's the will of the People"

524 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:00:50am

Shit hitting the fan.

525 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:01:18am

protesters are trying to push a police truck into the river.

526 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:01:21am

re: #521 karmic_inquisitor

Neuromancer ===> Cairomancer

Necromancer

527 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:01:23am

re: #520 000G

I am thinking that laws that deal with rape should be concerned with a good outcome for individuals, not society.

So what? Do you understand that this law is only about when an individual wants to get an abortion due to incest?

528 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:02:28am

re: #522 Obdicut

I really wish Obama and Biden had both kept their mouths shut about this. Obama's remarks, in the context of Biden's, are being taken as condemnatory of the protests.

I don't think that was by accident.

529 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:02:51am

re: #527 Obdicut

So what? Do you understand that this law is only about when an individual wants to get an abortion due to incest?

Yes, but I don't see why incest (between consenting adults) should be any special reason to get one, as in: different from any other reason.

530 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:03:06am

Dude dancing on top of an empty troop carrier....

531 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:03:07am

re: #518 ryannon

Barrett Brown: "It's not my fucking fault."

What is this about?

532 Four More Tears  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:03:20am

Cue Imperial March.

533 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:03:56am

Good photoslide show, w/ live updates: linky

534 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:04:07am

re: #529 000G

Yes, but I don't see why incest (between consenting adults) should be any special reason to get one, as in: different from any other reason.

You really can't conceive of a power differential between a father and a daughter that makes the issue of 'consent' innately problematic?

535 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:04:47am

re: #534 Obdicut

You really can't conceive of a power differential between a father and a daughter that makes the issue of 'consent' innately problematic?

He's talking about first cousins. Red herring.

536 Alexzander  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:05:52am

re: #522 Obdicut

I really wish Obama and Biden had both kept their mouths shut about this. Obama's remarks, in the context of Biden's, are being taken as condemnatory of the protests.

Not really surprising though. If this level of protest happened in North America it would be condemned severely, as the most 'violent' and stupid act ever. 1000 people were arrested in Toronto this past summer at the G20 for example, and those protesters were severely maligned by politicians in the media. Its in their best interests to maintain the perception that 'peaceful' protest is all that is ever needed.

537 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:06:32am

Now they're setting the truck on fire...

538 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:07:54am

re: #537 BishopX

and now they're trying to push into the nile, why it's on fire.

539 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:08:14am

Al-Jeezera wants them to dump that truck in the river so bad...

540 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:08:34am

Fire! Shiny!

541 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:08:41am

re: #535 Alouette

He's talking about first cousins. Red herring.

Oh, first cousins. I don't consider sex between first cousins to be incest. It's not about the genetics for me, it's about the power stuff.

542 RogueOne  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:08:50am

re: #502 Ericus58

"#1547: Unconfirmed reports say President Hosni Mubarak is preparing to make a statement."

Countdown to blaming the jews in 10..9..8.....

543 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:08:59am

The police in AJs studio must be the slowest police force in the world, or AJ was exaggerating matters to gain attention (which they got) and lather up their audience (which they have done).

544 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:09:05am

re: #539 McSpiff

Al-Jeezera wants them to dump that truck in the river so bad...

Me too, actually.

545 RogueOne  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:09:25am

This is starting to make me miss Detroit....

546 Alexzander  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:09:33am

Is this live feed on Al Jazeera's website, or only on their TV channel>?

547 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:09:35am

re: #544 ryannon

Me too, actually.

I'd enjoy that

548 brennant  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:09:51am

re: #540 ryannon

Fire! Shiny!

Shiny?

Thanks, now I have to watch Firefly.

549 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:09:51am

re: #546 Alexzander

Is this live feed on Al Jazeera's website, or only on their TV channel>?

[Link: english.aljazeera.net...]

550 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:09:54am

re: #543 karmic_inquisitor

The police in AJs studio must be the slowest police force in the world, or AJ was exaggerating matters to gain attention (which they got) and lather up their audience (which they have done).

Worse than Fox.

551 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:09:57am

re: #543 karmic_inquisitor

I think the police got stopped...the camera is in an interior office.

552 Stanghazi  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:10:31am

re: #542 RogueOne

Why would you say that?

553 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:11:03am

re: #546 Alexzander

[Link: english.aljazeera.net...]

554 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:11:13am

Red,white black stripped flag...whose is it?

555 Alexzander  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:11:17am

re: #542 RogueOne

Countdown to blaming the jews in 10..9..8...

More likely the Muslim Brotherhood, no? The only thing he has at this point are good relations with Israel.

556 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:11:22am

re: #543 karmic_inquisitor

The police in AJs studio must be the slowest police force in the world, or AJ was exaggerating matters to gain attention (which they got) and lather up their audience (which they have done).

Sounds like they never cared about AJ. Just looking for protesters that had entered the building.

557 Ericus58  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:11:38am

#
1603: The BBC's Ranyah Sabry, in Cairo, reports: "There has been some sympathy towards the demonstrators from the security services. Right near to where I am stationed near the police hospital - which is only for officers - they are said to have been throwing masks out of the windows so that the protesters can cover themselves and avoid the effect of the tear gas."

558 Ericus58  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:11:53am

1608: Al Jazeera TV reports that military trucks arrive in a Cairo square to the cheers of protesters

559 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:12:01am

You know, none of this is any of our business. Damn neo-colonialism. Can't we talk about football?

560 RogueOne  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:12:04am

re: #552 Stanley Sea

Why would you say that?

It's SOP. When there's a problem, blame the jews is the go to rule.

561 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:12:05am

re: #554 BishopX

Red,white black stripped flag...whose is it?

Variation of the flag of Egypt? [Link: upload.wikimedia.org...]

562 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:12:20am

re: #557 Ericus58

The officers were happy to back off and let protesters pray in peace.

563 RogueOne  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:12:55am

re: #552 Stanley Sea

re: #555 Alexzander

I was specifically talking about the rumored mubarak statement.

564 Stanghazi  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:13:20am

re: #563 RogueOne

re: #555 Alexzander

I was specifically talking about the rumored mubarak statement.

Maybe we should just wait for it.

565 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:13:22am

Big M to speak in 10 minutes per CNN

566 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:13:23am

Barrett Brown handing out cookies to mob!

567 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:13:31am

re: #561 McSpiff

Variation of the flag of Egypt? [Link: upload.wikimedia.org...]

Probably, no emblem in the center though.

568 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:13:51am

re: #559 ryannon

It's one of the factors of the information age: we get to observe many things that aren't our business. Sometimes this is good, sometimes bad, and sometimes just leads to voyeurism.

569 Ericus58  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:14:15am

The live CNN feed is showing no confrontations between protesters and the Military/Police as far as I can tell on the bridge. Vehicle is still burning, and road traffic is still passing through.

570 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:14:46am

re: #568 Obdicut

It's one of the factors of the information age: we get to observe many things that aren't our business. Sometimes this is good, sometimes bad, and sometimes just leads to voyeurism.

Voyeurism!

Now you're talking!

571 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:15:02am

re: #568 Obdicut

It's one of the factors of the information age: we get to observe many things that aren't our business. Sometimes this is good, sometimes bad, and sometimes just leads to voyeurism.

Sunlight can be the best disinfected.

572 Alexzander  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:15:06am

Has anyone seen some recent crowd estimates? I think i read 10,000 somewhere, and if thats the case its too small for a revolution.

573 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:15:27am

re: #559 ryannon

You know, none of this is any of our business. Damn neo-colonialism. Can't we talk about football?

Or Tunisia... nothing much happening there...

574 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:15:50am

re: #572 Alexzander

No, i haven't heard anything...10,000 was noon local time.

575 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:16:13am

re: #571 McSpiff

Sunlight can be the best disinfected.

It can also lead to simply a profound feeling of helplessness.

Image: tiananmen-square-hero.jpg

576 Ericus58  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:16:27am

#
1615: US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton due to make a televised statement on Egypt shortly.

577 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:17:02am

re: #574 BishopX

No, i haven't heard anything...10,000 was noon local time.

We can't count the millions at a Glenn Beck rally, so we will probably be waiting a while for a good nosecount in Cairo.

578 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:17:11am

re: #575 Obdicut

It can also lead to simply a profound feeling of helplessness.

Image: tiananmen-square-hero.jpg

But how many others has that image inspired? One unknown man has made a profound impact on the world.

579 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:17:26am

re: #576 Ericus58

#
1615: US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton due to make a televised statement on Egypt shortly.

I hope she has better material than she did a few days ago... clueless.

580 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:17:32am

The other issue is that there are many different protests going on. Alexandria,Suez and Cairo are the big cities....there are atleast 3 protest sites in Cairo....The oct 6 bridge, the presidential palace, the ruling party HQ, tahir square

581 Alexzander  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:18:04am

re: #574 BishopX

No, i haven't heard anything...10,000 was noon local time.

It must be higher. There were 30,000 "thugs" (according to the police) during the G20 in Toronto this summer. I believe there were even more police officers.

582 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:18:35am

Thanks to Sattv4u2 and those in his industry that make this all possible...

583 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:18:38am

re: #578 McSpiff

Absolutely. It's good to get the information out, the narrative, the stories. As accurately as possible.

I just mean that when it then comes to trying to help that man, or the people of Egypt, or Tunisia, there isn't any easy thing to do that doesn't carry extreme risk of backfiring amazingly.

584 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:18:52am

re: #573 Walter L. Newton

Or Tunisia... nothing much happening there...

Yes: banana flambé!

585 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:19:19am

re: #578 McSpiff

But how many others has that image inspired? One unknown man has made a profound impact on the world.

Some day there will be a bronze statue of a kid in Tienanmen, facing a line of rusting armor.

586 Ericus58  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:20:16am

re: #580 BishopX

The other issue is that there are many different protests going on. Alexandria,Suez and Cairo are the big cities...there are atleast 3 protest sites in Cairo...The oct 6 bridge, the presidential palace, the ruling party HQ, tahir square

The traffic on the Bridge is totally civilian by the live feed - there 's no running or fighting. And the numbers on foot are growing, with road traffic still passing through.

587 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:21:14am

re: #586 Ericus58

I think they're trying to head for Tahir.

AJ has a map of the protestsup.

588 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:21:15am

re: #584 ryannon

Yes: banana flambé!

I brought home a number of French language papers from Paris, a lot of coverage on Tunisia... basically the French government was getting their asses rack over the coals.

If you can read a little French, you may want to look up Le Figaro and Liberation online.

589 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:21:23am

re: #585 Decatur Deb

Some day there will be a bronze statue of a kid in Tienanmen, facing a line of rusting armor.

That would be beautiful.... I like your image for the future :)

590 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:21:41am

re: #579 Walter L. Newton

I hope she has better material than she did a few days ago... clueless.

Hillary is on:

591 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:22:09am

NPD party HQ building is on fire in Cairo....

592 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:22:18am

re: #588 Walter L. Newton

I brought home a number of French language papers from Paris, a lot of coverage on Tunisia... basically the French government was getting their asses rack over the coals.

If you can read a little French, you may want to look up Le Figaro and Liberation online.

Yeah, like I wasn't following it in real-time.

593 Alexzander  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:23:48am

This new footage showing the building on fire is making me think I underestimated the earlier footage. BishopX, you are right to remind that this is happening in many cities in many areas. I think that is what makes it out of control for the police and army.

594 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:23:49am

re: #590 ryannon

Here is a comment this past week by Hillary... ''our assessment is that the Egyptian government is stable''and how Mubarak was ''looking for ways to respond to the legitimate needs and interests of the Egyptian people''.

She nail it.

[Link: www.smh.com.au...]

595 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:24:43am

re: #592 ryannon

Yeah, like I wasn't following it in real-time.

You missed my nuance... LOL.

596 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:25:02am

BBC: #
1616: The BBC's Andrew North, in Washington, reports: "The US is really having to make policy on the hop. They have been caught off guard by these events. They have been treading a very fine line, but there is a sense that they are trying to show that they are on the side of those pushing for reform."

It's pretty much like the Iran protests again - trying to balance the need to support reform and democracy, but not going too far and giving ammo to the Islamists that might use the support to go after their supporters, with the added complication that the US is allied with the Mubarak government and gives billions annually to Egypt as part of Camp David.

597 Alexzander  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:26:04am

re: #594 Walter L. Newton

Here is a comment this past week by Hillary... ''our assessment is that the Egyptian government is stable''and how Mubarak was ''looking for ways to respond to the legitimate needs and interests of the Egyptian people''.

She nail it.

[Link: www.smh.com.au...]

Yeah, that obviously depends on your political dispositions.

598 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:26:07am

re: #595 Walter L. Newton

You missed my nuance... LOL.

It's your nasal infection: distorts your voice.

599 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:26:13am

re: #589 McSpiff

That would be beautiful... I like your image for the future :)

There is already this:
[Link: t3.gstatic.com...]

I'm waiting for one of the Hungarian kids putting Molotovs on Russian tanks.

600 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:28:25am

Diplomatically, this is rock vs hard place for the US.

The best thing we can do right now is do or say as little as possible, imo.

601 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:29:13am

gunfire in cairo...

602 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:29:44am

Did Chinese TV pass off Top Gun footage as a military drill?



In the newscast, the way a target was hit by the air-to-air missile fired by a J-10 fighter aircraft and exploded looks almost identical to a cinema scene from the Hollywood film Top Gun.

A net user who went by the name “??” (Liu Yi) pointed out that the jet that the J-10 “hit” is an F-5, a US fighter jet. In Top Gun, what the leading actor Tom Cruise pilots an F-14 to bring down is exactly an F-5. Looking at the screenshots juxtaposition, one cannot fail to find that even flame, smoke and the way the splinters fly look the same.

603 dragonfire1981  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:29:52am

I have been watching the Fox News coverage of the protests and there's no mistaking the undertones of their reporting. The not so hidden message is: these people are uprising against a corrupt and disliked government. Take notes America this could be us against Obama someday.

604 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:30:26am

re: #600 Fozzie Bear

Diplomatically, this is rock vs hard place for the US.

The best thing we can do right now is do or say as little as possible, imo.

Reminds me of Philippines. Reagan et al decided to let Marcos fall. But at least there was a semblance of a democratic movement there to take his place.

605 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:31:10am

re: #603 dragonfire1981

I have been watching the Fox News coverage of the protests and there's no mistaking the undertones of their reporting. The not so hidden message is: these people are uprising against a corrupt and disliked government. Take notes America this could be us against Obama someday.

Can you give an example for us?

606 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:31:38am

Gahhh

darn FCC

Theres 90 minutes of my life I'll never get back!

Had to give an RF safety course with the same material the FCC supplies to the same 8 people I give the course too every year !!

607 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:32:35am

AJ reporting live shootings of protesters.

Will wait for confirmation.

608 Alexzander  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:32:37am

re: #603 dragonfire1981

I have been watching the Fox News coverage of the protests and there's no mistaking the undertones of their reporting. The not so hidden message is: these people are uprising against a corrupt and disliked government. Take notes America this could be us against Obama someday.

Thats really just a passing phase though, as Fox News and its kin are essentially apologetic statists and nationalists, who would typically condemn this kind of act as "violent" (whatever the hell that means), and probably use the typical buzz word "thugs" to describe the protesters.

609 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:33:13am

re: #606 sattv4u2

re: #582 McSpiff

Thanks to Sattv4u2 and those in his industry that make this all possible...

610 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:33:22am

Ruling party building on fire in Cairo.

611 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:33:27am

re: #603 dragonfire1981

I have been watching the Fox News coverage of the protests and there's no mistaking the undertones of their reporting. The not so hidden message is: these people are uprising against a corrupt and disliked government. Take notes America this could be us against Obama someday.

It's also probably because since Bubarak is a longtime US ally and has Obama's support (more or less) the wingnuts just want to be on the other side.

612 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:33:31am

re: #602 Killgore Trout

Methinks that if the video was indeed pilfered from Top Gun that whoever was responsible will be flying a cargo plane full of rubber dog shit out of Hong Kong.

613 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:33:35am

re: #607 karmic_inquisitor

AJ reporting live shootings of protesters.

Will wait for confirmation.

You don't usually shoot dead protestors.

614 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:33:44am

re: #607 karmic_inquisitor

linky?

615 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:34:04am

re: #609 McSpiff

re: #582 McSpiff

You're saying it's his fault too?

616 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:34:20am

re: #605 Walter L. Newton

Can you give an example for us?

It's clearly implied in their nuance!

Notice how many times the FOX reporter used the word "the"!

One can easily substitute the "the" for The Egyptian Gov't The US Gov't

617 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:34:45am

re: #615 ryannon

You're saying it's his fault too?

Pretty much

618 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:34:57am

re: #615 ryannon

You're saying it's his fault too?

Huh,, me!?!?
WhatdidIdo!?!?!

619 Ericus58  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:35:02am

The APC with it's main gun trained toward the bridge on CNN's feed is not good....

620 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:35:10am

re: #614 BishopX

linky?

On the AJ feed ===> [Link: english.aljazeera.net...]

621 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:35:37am

re: #620 karmic_inquisitor

must have missed it...

622 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:35:54am

The BBC is running live updates from all around Egypt and has reported the following:

#
1623: A building that forms part of the headquarters of the ruling National Democratic Party in Cairo has been set on fire, according to reports. Senior leaders, including the president's son Gamal Mubarak met there on Thursday.

That would also seem to indicate that the rumors that Gamal fled the country yesterday were wrong.

623 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:36:43am

re: #596 lawhawk

Hilary Clinton was warning of this kind of revolt weeks ago. Seems from that statement our State Department knew well in advance of the possibility, and that no good policy answers are available at all.

624 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:37:09am

re: #622 lawhawk

Gamal was in the HQ yesterday according to AJ

625 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:37:36am

re: #618 sattv4u2

Huh,, me!?!?
WhatdidIdo!?!?!

re: #582 McSpiff

Thanks to Sattv4u2 and those in his industry that make this all possible...

There it is, in black and white. Care to 'fess up or will you just continue to play innocent?

626 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:37:40am

re: #624 BishopX

Gamal was in the HQ yesterday according to AJ

Doesn't mean he couldn't have fled right after the "meeting"

627 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:38:06am

re: #616 sattv4u2

Honestly what do people expect from Fox? I wouldn't be surprised if they just said "Soros did it with the help of those pesky Jews".

Al Jazeera has far more journalistic integrity than Fox.

628 Ericus58  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:38:08am

CNN live feed lost.
They are now running earlier in the day footage....

629 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:38:09am

In Canada, the NDP is one of more left leaning parties, that generally whine and piss people off. Hearing "the NDP headquarters is on fire!" can't help but make me chuckle a bit..

630 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:38:36am

re: #625 ryannon

re: #582 McSpiff

There it is, in black and white. Care to 'fess up or will you just continue to play innocent?

Me??,,, DUMB is more apropos!!
and ,,,shhhh,,, I wouldn't be "playing"!!

631 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:38:59am

I hate to be a gloom and doom person here, but I think we're on the verge of verge of having revolutions in Yemen, Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria and possibly Jordan. As a bonus you have a serious struggle in Lebanon between Hezbollah and the other factions. Uprisings such as these are a contagion. And when they start jumping the metaphorical firebreaks that are country borders, you could see an entire region go up in flames in a matter of days/weeks.

Generally, it's not the nice moderate people who win revolutionary power struggles. It's the extremists, the radicals, the ones who are most willing to kill and die for a cause. That's why someone said (and for the life of me I cannot find the actual quote, if someone does find it please let me know), that you only need ten percent of the population on your side to have a revolution. They're the ones who are most willing to justify the excesses in order to win the day.

I think America is going to be looking at an entire region that's going to be uniformly hostile towards us.

632 Alexzander  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:39:12am

re: #629 McSpiff

In Canada, the NDP is one of more left leaning parties, that generally whine and piss people off. Hearing "the NDP headquarters is on fire!" can't help but make me chuckle a bit..

Haha, I had the same reaction..

633 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:39:19am

re: #628 Ericus58

CNN live feed lost.
They are now running earlier in the day footage...

Al Jazzera feed at #620. They're assholes but they'll keep the cameras running.

634 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:40:09am

re: #579 Walter L. Newton

I hope she has better material than she did a few days ago... clueless.

Just checking....

So - you think it fitting to use the situation in Egypt to go after the SoS? I'm sure her political party has nothing to do with that?

Who, exactly, was predicting this?

Would you rather her say: "Clearly, Mubarak is fucked?"

And I assume that you were upset that the Bush administration was similarly clueless when, say, Hamas won elections?

635 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:40:16am

re: #623 Rightwingconspirator

Hilary Clinton was warning of this kind of revolt weeks ago. Seems from that statement our State Department knew well in advance of the possibility, and that no good policy answers are available at all.

It is Hillary's job top have a grip 'n grin photo with every winner of every possible leadership struggle.

636 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:40:18am

"large explosions may be gas tanks in burning cars going up" - AJ feed

637 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:41:10am

re: #633 Killgore Trout

Al Jazzera feed at #620. They're assholes but they'll keep the cameras running.

I do appreciate that they've been decent about indicating whats a live feed, whats recent and what was earlier in the protests.

638 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:41:22am

re: #631 bloodstar

...snip

I think America is going to be looking at an entire region that's going to be uniformly hostile towards us.

So you're betting on the status quo?

639 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:41:28am

curfews were announced too late for people to get home...

640 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:42:03am

re: #637 McSpiff

AJ thinks they're unbiased journalists...we may disagree.....

641 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:42:13am

re: #631 bloodstar

I hate to be a gloom and doom person here, but I think we're on the verge of verge of having revolutions in Yemen, Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria and possibly Jordan. As a bonus you have a serious struggle in Lebanon between Hezbollah and the other factions. Uprisings such as these are a contagion. And when they start jumping the metaphorical firebreaks that are country borders, you could see an entire region go up in flames in a matter of days/weeks.

Generally, it's not the nice moderate people who win revolutionary power struggles. It's the extremists, the radicals, the ones who are most willing to kill and die for a cause. That's why someone said (and for the life of me I cannot find the actual quote, if someone does find it please let me know), that you only need ten percent of the population on your side to have a revolution. They're the ones who are most willing to justify the excesses in order to win the day.

I think America is going to be looking at an entire region that's going to be uniformly hostile towards us.

Sixty percent of the Egyptian population is under 30. All they want are iPods, not Mullas and having to wear a beard.

642 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:43:12am

re: #640 BishopX

AJ thinks they're unbiased journalists...we may disagree...

AJ's live reporting has been superb.

643 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:43:20am

re: #640 BishopX

AJ thinks they're unbiased journalists...we may disagree...

Ha I certainly disagree. But in terms of providing information on this particular story, I can't fault them too much. Some of the commentary has been a bit... meh, but if you're just watching the stream its decent.

644 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:43:21am

re: #634 Talking Point Detective

Just checking...

So - you think it fitting to use the situation in Egypt to go after the SoS? I'm sure her political party has nothing to do with that?

Who, exactly, was predicting this?

Would you rather her say: "Clearly, Mubarak is fucked?"

And I assume that you were upset that the Bush administration was similarly clueless when, say, Hamas won elections?

Your comment doesn't change anything that was said or wasn't said... by Hillary or Bush... and yes, I think Bush was stupid, and comments like this from Hillary indicates that she is working on second place.

We haven't seen the Magical Balance Fairy for a while... thanks for trotting it out... glad she's ok, kicking and healthy.

645 Alexzander  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:43:44am

re: #639 BishopX

curfews were announced too late for people to get home...

I think you're right.. Mistake (on the part of the state) to put people in a position where they have no choice but to break the law. Creates space for everyone.

646 laZardo  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:44:17am

re: #641 ryannon

Sixty percent of the Egyptian population is under 30. All they want are iPods, not Mullas and having to wear a beard.

They want reform for corruption.

The same platform that got Hamas elected in Gaza.

647 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:44:35am

re: #644 Walter L. Newton

Your comment doesn't change anything that was said or wasn't said... by Hillary or Bush... and yes, I think Bush was stupid, and comments like this from Hillary indicates that she is working on second place.

We haven't seen the Magical Balance Fairy for a while... thanks for trotting it out... glad she's ok, kicking and healthy.

Remember, you can't criticize this administration, because Bush did dumb things. God forbid we expect an improvement following an election...

648 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:44:52am

On twitter-

tinydoctor RT @humanprovince: African friends in Kenya, Tanzania and DRC on Facebook talking about #tunisia and #egypt, speaking of African awakening. #jan25
649 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:45:08am

re: #641 ryannon

Sixty percent of the Egyptian population is under 30. All they want are iPods, not Mullas and having to wear a beard.

"Bread and iPods"

650 Four More Tears  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:45:56am

re: #649 Decatur Deb

"Bread and iPods"

Let them listen to Zunes!

651 Ericus58  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:46:01am

re: #648 BishopX

On twitter-

*raises eyebrow*

652 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:46:06am

re: #647 McSpiff

Remember, you can't criticize this administration, because Bush did dumb things. God forbid we expect an improvement following an election...

I'm going back to Paris... I'm getting along with too many people here.

Actually, I am going to hit the bed for a nap soon. Not sleeping well with this infection, and I got to get my sleep back on track before tomorrow midnight, when I go back to work.

653 laZardo  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:46:16am

re: #649 Decatur Deb

"Bread and iPods"

"Let them have 3DSes!" - Marie Antoinette

654 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:46:31am

re: #644 Walter L. Newton

Your comment doesn't change anything that was said or wasn't said... by Hillary or Bush... and yes, I think Bush was stupid, and comments like this from Hillary indicates that she is working on second place.

We haven't seen the Magical Balance Fairy for a while... thanks for trotting it out... glad she's ok, kicking and healthy.

What sort of pronouncements would you like the nation's head diplomat to say during a revolution in a foreign country? Should we blindly pick a side?

She's a diplomat. What do you expect?

655 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:46:35am

re: #646 laZardo

They want reform for corruption.

The same platform that got Hamas elected in Gaza.

Yep, same old, same old....never changes.

656 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:47:11am

Cairo photostream from today's protests: linky

657 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:47:24am

re: #649 Decatur Deb

"Bread and iPods"

Put an "I" in from of bread and call it Ibread... and you can charge twice as much for it. For a matter of fact, now a days, put a "I" on front of any product and you can charge double.

658 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:47:27am

re: #654 Fozzie Bear

What sort of pronouncements would you like the nation's head diplomat to say during a revolution in a foreign country? Should we blindly pick a side?

She's a diplomat. What do you expect?

Well, we did. The administration has been very that they support Mubarak.

659 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:47:54am

re: #658 McSpiff

Well, we did. The administration has been very that they support Mubarak.

PIMF: been very clear that they support Mubarak.

660 laZardo  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:48:42am

re: #648 BishopX

I get the DRC (though instead of some al-Shabaab, you get real anarchy). But Kenya and Tanzania don't seem as stereotypically dictatorial as many African countries can get.

661 researchok  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:48:52am

re: #654 Fozzie Bear

What sort of pronouncements would you like the nation's head diplomat to say during a revolution in a foreign country? Should we blindly pick a side?

She's a diplomat. What do you expect?

The administration has to take a stand. There is no option- unless you consider the Muslim Brotherhood a reasonable alternative.

Ask the Copts how they view that option.

662 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:49:18am

re: #638 Decatur Deb

So you're betting on the status quo?

Status quo is better for America. It may not be better for Egypt and Yemen and other countries, or better for the people who live in them. But it's precisely these kinds of extreme events that precipitate financial shocks and fear. Stepping beyond the risk of a hostile middle east, Financial markets HATE instability and having multiple countries undergoing revolutions Instability on a grand scale. Add in the radicalized element into these revolutions and the high likely hood that any new government will be radical as well and you're looking at world financial markets collectively running for the nearest financial bomb shelter.

We're just now coming out of a nasty recession, the last thing in the world America needs is a financial shock and skyrocketing oil prices sending us back into a tailspin.

Revolutions rarely happen at a good time, I think these are happening at a particularly bad moment. At least for America.

663 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:49:28am

re: #657 Walter L. Newton

Put an "I" in from of bread and call it Ibread... and you can charge twice as much for it. For a matter of fact, now a days, put a "I" on front of any product and you can charge double.

To pay for the lawsuit usually

664 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:49:42am

My point is that the state department's hands are tied. Their job is representing official US policy which has been, for 30 years, that the Egyptian government is an ally.

Suddenly, now that's an indication of Hillary's bad judgement?

LOL

665 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:49:53am

re: #660 laZardo

I think the demographics are the same.... the down side of "youth movements" is that they spread culturally.

666 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:49:59am

The building next door to the National Museum in Cairo is on fire. No fire crews responding.

667 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:50:23am

re: #653 laZardo

"Let them have 3DSes!" - Marie Antoinette

Worked for Leila Ben Ali!

668 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:50:28am

NPD HQ (which is on fire) is next to the national museum.

669 dragonfire1981  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:50:30am

To expand on what I said, the Fox coverage seems to be quite sympathetic to the protesters. John Bolton was just on there talking about the fact the Muslim brotherhood may have infiltrated the Egyptian military (again positioning the protesters as the heroes of the story).

They've also mentioned that Egypt is secular and U.S. allied, which, while true, seems to be intended to say: Egypt is not Christian and hence is bad and they are U.S. allies (i.e. good Obama buddies) which is also bad.

I also notice they have used similar terms to refer to the Mubarak government as they've used in reference to the Obama administration. "Corrupt regime" for example.

670 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:50:41am

and live prayers in cairo...

671 Alexzander  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:51:23am

Wow this evening prayer is going to be intense...

672 Alexzander  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:51:40am

Damn I was really hoping to hear it.

673 iossarian  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:51:40am

re: #650 JasonA

Let them listen to Zunes!

You inhumane monster!

674 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:51:59am

re: #644 Walter L. Newton

We haven't seen the Magical Balance Fairy for a while... thanks for trotting it out... glad she's ok, kicking and healthy.


Ok - so I guess you have no answers as to who was (or wasn't) predicting this, and you choose to not answer as to what you think she should be saying?

But hey, don't let that get in the way of launching a broadside because Clinton didn't take some unspecified action, and because she didn't predict something that some unspecified person predicted, and because she didn't conduct foreign policy via TV cameras.

675 laZardo  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:52:08am

re: #620 karmic_inquisitor

On the AJ feed ===> [Link: english.aljazeera.net...]

Real Player? CRAP.

676 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:52:56am

re: #675 laZardo

It's also flash 10

677 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:53:10am

re: #674 Talking Point Detective

Ok - so I guess you have no answers as to who was (or wasn't) predicting this, and you choose to not answer as to what you think she should be saying?

But hey, don't let that get in the way of launching a broadside because Clinton didn't take some unspecified action, and because she didn't predict something that some unspecified person predicted, and because she didn't conduct foreign policy via TV cameras.

You do realize some of us have thought that US policy towards Egypt has been bunk since the Camp David Accords right?

678 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:53:48am

It's been more than an hour since mubarak announced he would give a speech...

679 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:54:36am

re: #678 BishopX

It's been more than an hour since mubarak announced he would give a speech...

He's still trying to find good quotes on youtube but it ain't happening!

680 laZardo  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:54:38am

re: #676 BishopX

Yeah, got the player running. Not sure where the RealPlayer plugin is needed.

681 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:54:49am

re: #477 Walter L. Newton

Reine... I have no interest in listen to what is going on over there filtered through Al Jazeera English... I've already dealt with them live and on air, and I've seen how they us ex-pat Americans and other English speakers to attract western viewers. I've seen, live and on the air, in action, how the spin a story, with a constant and subtle effort to make the west look wrong.

They are about as fair and balanced as Fox. No Thanks.

Understood.
I turn the sound down (or just don't pay attention) - but the video is good coverage.

682 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:55:08am

re: #669 dragonfire1981

To expand on what I said, the Fox coverage seems to be quite sympathetic to the protesters. John Bolton was just on there talking about the fact the Muslim brotherhood may have infiltrated the Egyptian military (again positioning the protesters as the heroes of the story).

They've also mentioned that Egypt is secular and U.S. allied, which, while true, seems to be intended to say: Egypt is not Christian and hence is bad and they are U.S. allies (i.e. good Obama buddies) which is also bad.

I also notice they have used similar terms to refer to the Mubarak government as they've used in reference to the Obama administration. "Corrupt regime" for example.

Well... you may be right... I don't think anyone in this country should be positioning the protestors as heroes... that would certainly mean that those people are secretly using code words that the same thing would be acceptable here...

You nailed it. Foxes support of the oppressed citizens in Egypt is surely propaganda for an uprising in the streets of America.

I'm glad you caught it before it got out of control.

683 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:55:10am

re: #647 McSpiff

Remember, you can't criticize this administration, because Bush did dumb things. God forbid we expect an improvement following an election...

Criticize away. I'm far from a fan of Hiliary Clinton. But when you have no substance to your criticism - with no actual argument about what she should have done as opposed to what she did - you leave yourself open to charges of partisanship.

Because, you know, it looks exactly like partisanship.

684 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:55:49am

police started firing teargas into the praying protesters.

685 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:56:10am

re: #677 McSpiff

You do realize some of us have thought that US policy towards Egypt has been bunk since the Camp David Accords right?

So how does that explain finding fault with what Clinton said about the situation in Egypt?

686 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:56:12am

re: #677 McSpiff

You do realize some of us have thought that US policy towards Egypt has been bunk since the Camp David Accords right?

Should Hillary have independently made a pronouncement that runs counter to official US policy, or no? I would think it's common sense that the head of the diplomatic arm of the government isn't in the business of making snap judgements. It is her job to represent official US policy.

To characterize this as her mistake is pure wingnut lunacy.

687 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:56:59am

re: #684 BishopX

police started firing teargas into the praying protesters.

Final prayers over: shit's seriously going to hit the fan

688 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:56:59am

re: #683 Talking Point Detective

Criticize away. I'm far from a fan of Hiliary Clinton. But when you have no substance to your criticism - with no actual argument about what she should have done as opposed to what she did - you leave yourself open to charges of partisanship.

Because, you know, it looks exactly like partisanship.

Well, what I've seen in twitter is Egyptians criticizing Clinton.

Of course she cannot say anything to oppose official policy.

689 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:57:24am

re: #534 Obdicut

You really can't conceive of a power differential between a father and a daughter that makes the issue of 'consent' innately problematic?

No, I can see it. But there are legal categories entirely different from those dealing with incest that deal with "power differentials" effectively. Also, incest is not just parent-child.

690 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:57:57am

re: #688 reine.de.tout

Well, what I've seen in twitter is Egyptians criticizing Clinton.

Of course she cannot say anything to oppose official policy.

And that's the point. She can't say anything counter to US policy, unless people actually want a rogue state department.

691 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:58:00am

The thing about revolutions against autocratic regimes rarely occur when you expect, and the regimes are usually the last to know that there's something seriously wrong.

Tunisia's revolution kicked over a can of worms, but people have been warning about the problems throughout the Middle East relating to the awful socioeconomic situation for decades. There were few indications that the protests would turn into riots and calls for Mubarak to step down, even after a few people started immolating themselves in protest/solidarity with the Tunisian protests.

So, while anyone could have said that the socioeconomic situation was bad and could lead to problems, including riots/revolutions/anarchy, you'd be hard pressed to find someone predicting that Mubarak's regime would be on the precipice this week. Sometimes it takes a spark - literally and figuratively to change the course of history.

And even now, it isn't a sure thing that Mubarak will be overthrown. He might still manage to hang on, just as the Iranian regime did (and they are engaging in many of the same tactics to quell the protests).

What we do know is that things are increasingly likely to get real ugly in Egypt.

692 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:58:04am

re: #661 researchok

The administration has to take a stand. There is no option- unless you consider the Muslim Brotherhood a reasonable alternative.

Ask the Copts how they view that option.

How did the opposition in Iran feel about Obama's administration trying to stay out of their protests?

693 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:58:06am

re: #689 000G

But there are legal categories entirely different from those dealing with incest that deal with "power differentials" effectively.

Yeah? Name them.

694 Stanghazi  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:58:26am

#
# Sultan Al Qassemi SultanAlQassemi

You won't believe this. Egyptian protesters march with police forces ! [Link: yfrog.com...]

695 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:58:51am

re: #535 Alouette

He's talking about first cousins. Red herring.

I wasn't talking about first cousins but incest in general.

696 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:59:29am

Al-Jaz commentary: "The barrier of fear has fallen...this part of Cairo belongs to the demonstrators"

697 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:00:27am

re: #669 dragonfire1981

To expand on what I said, the Fox coverage seems to be quite sympathetic to the protesters. John Bolton was just on there talking about the fact the Muslim brotherhood may have infiltrated the Egyptian military (again positioning the protesters as the heroes of the story).

They've also mentioned that Egypt is secular and U.S. allied, which, while true, seems to be intended to say: Egypt is not Christian and hence is bad and they are U.S. allies (i.e. good Obama buddies) which is also bad.

I also notice they have used similar terms to refer to the Mubarak government as they've used in reference to the Obama administration. "Corrupt regime" for example.

You know... this comment above is a real special kind of crazy. Crazy finessed to an art.

698 Interesting Times  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:00:34am

re: #694 Stanley Sea

#
# Sultan Al Qassemi SultanAlQassemi

You won't believe this. Egyptian protesters march with police forces ! [Link: yfrog.com...]

Photo too blurry for me to make out exactly what's happening, but if enough police truly do side with protesters, it would be a pretty crucial difference between this uprising and what took place in Iran...

699 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:01:10am

#
1655: White House spokesman Robert Gibbs tweets: "Very concerned about violence in Egypt - government must respect the rights of the Egyptian people&turn on social networking and internet."

The official US policy line is that the government must respect Egyptian rights, for both sides to back down from the use of violence... but it looks like both sides are ignoring those pleas for restraint.

700 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:01:58am

re: #688 reine.de.tout

Well, what I've seen in twitter is Egyptians criticizing Clinton.

Of course she cannot say anything to oppose official policy.

Which Egyptians - and what is their agenda?

Egyptians have been criticizing U.S. foreign policy on Egypt for a long time - as have I. I do not favor supporting autocrats, whether it be done by Republicans or Dems.

But I would question isolating this situation and using it as a battering ram to criticize Clinton.

What would you have her do, and more particularly, what would you have her do that would not generate crticism from at least some Egyptians?

701 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:02:09am

re: #698 publicityStunted

The police don't seem to be happy...before the curfew they were kinda delusatory about pushing the protesters back.

702 Ericus58  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:02:15am

#
1700: More on the praying protesters: at the end of their prayers, tear gas was fired at them by the security forces, prompting an angry response from the crowd and many shouts of "Allahu Akbar" (God is great).

703 laZardo  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:03:01am

"Al-Jazeera Arabic has been taken off the air in Egypt."

what

704 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:03:32am

re: #703 laZardo

"Al-Jazeera Arabic has been taken off the air in Egypt."

what

It's dead, Jim.

705 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:04:13am

re: #693 Obdicut

Yeah? Name them.

Dunno about american law, but in Germany some of these are codified in &sect174 StGB, &sect3 AGG or BetrVG § 75.

706 albusteve  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:04:37am

Mu will call out the big dogs today....

707 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:04:40am

oops, LGF script fux0red my §&sect.

708 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:05:28am

molotov cocktails being thrown at the radio and television building.

709 Alexzander  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:05:54am

I cant believe a discussion of the revolt in Egypt is being peppered with a discussion over the legal intent of incest laws....

710 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:06:26am

re: #709 Alexzander

Welcome to footballs....

711 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:06:52am

re: #691 lawhawk

The thing about revolutions against autocratic regimes rarely occur when you expect, and the regimes are usually the last to know that there's something seriously wrong.

Tunisia's revolution kicked over a can of worms, but people have been warning about the problems throughout the Middle East relating to the awful socioeconomic situation for decades. There were few indications that the protests would turn into riots and calls for Mubarak to step down, even after a few people started immolating themselves in protest/solidarity with the Tunisian protests.

So, while anyone could have said that the socioeconomic situation was bad and could lead to problems, including riots/revolutions/anarchy, you'd be hard pressed to find someone predicting that Mubarak's regime would be on the precipice this week. Sometimes it takes a spark - literally and figuratively to change the course of history.

And even now, it isn't a sure thing that Mubarak will be overthrown. He might still manage to hang on, just as the Iranian regime did (and they are engaging in many of the same tactics to quell the protests).

What we do know is that things are increasingly likely to get real ugly in Egypt.


A general question - not directed at you.


As a general rule - who is it that says that key to handling our problems with the ME are addressing socio-economic tensions that derive from poverty, unemployment, and a lack of civil liberties?

Who is it, as a general rule, that have a long history of attacking people who raise those issues as "appeasers for terrorism?" (By the thousands, on this very site, I might add, a few short years ago)

Obviously, there are no simple answers to problems in the ME - simplistic finger-pointing doesn't help.

712 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:06:58am

apc on the street below the aj feed is being overun.

713 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:07:14am

I hope the people of Egypt can also set a positive example for the people of Iran.

714 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:07:28am

re: #709 Alexzander

I cant believe a discussion of the revolt in Egypt is being peppered with a discussion over the legal intent of incest laws...

Yeah. We usually do a "boob pun" thread this time of day.

715 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:07:55am

re: #705 000G

Dunno about american law,

Yeah. Exactly. And we're talking about American law.

So asserting that:

But there are legal categories entirely different from those dealing with incest that deal with "power differentials" effectively.

Is entirely wrong when you're dealing with US law.

Also, of the three things you cited in German, the first is about harassment, the second is only about people under the age of eighteen, and the third is about workplace discrimination.

They have nothing to do with the case of an adult father and adult daughter.

716 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:07:55am

re: #709 Alexzander

I cant believe a discussion of the revolt in Egypt is being peppered with a discussion over the legal intent of incest laws...

What's happening in Egypt is none of our business. Fucking your sister is.

717 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:07:55am

re: #714 Decatur Deb

Yeah. We usually do a "boob pun" thread this time of day.

Why did everyone look at me!?!?!

718 RogueOne  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:08:45am

re: #709 Alexzander

I cant believe a discussion of the revolt in Egypt is being peppered with a discussion over the legal intent of incest laws...

We're well rounded. something for everyone...

719 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:08:55am

re: #716 ryannon

What's happening in Egypt is none of our business. Fucking your sister is.

HEY NOW

I took her out to dinner 1st!!
/

720 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:09:09am

clinton is live

721 laZardo  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:09:37am

"Deeply Concerned."

722 Alexzander  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:09:44am

Clinton live!

723 albusteve  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:11:05am

page 256 in the text book, Hil

724 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:11:27am

"In my discussions with Barrett Brown...."

725 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:11:39am

Why. Is. Her. Delivery. So. Weird?

726 albusteve  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:12:08am

re: #713 _RememberTonyC

I hope the people of Egypt can also set a positive example for the people of Iran.

maybe but mass murder can uninspire you pretty quick

727 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:12:22am

re: #725 McSpiff

no teleprompter.

728 RogueOne  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:12:24am

That was a quick switch to mining. Kinda weird.

729 Alexzander  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:12:29am

re: #725 McSpiff

Why. Is. Her. Delivery. So. Weird?

She is being extra careful about not speaking a wrong word. Perhaps, she is also speaking slowly so that it translates well for arabic media?

730 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:13:39am

HOLD THE WEDDIN

I thought Biden was brought on board for one HUGE reason
All of his foreign "expertise" and contacts and skills!

731 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:14:19am

re: #725 McSpiff

Why. Is. Her. Delivery. So. Weird?

"I ain't no ways taarrred!!!"

732 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:14:36am

Al-masry is saying there were 20,000 protesters crossing the oct 6 bridge

733 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:14:49am

re: #730 sattv4u2

HOLD THE WEDDIN

I thought Biden was brought on board for one HUGE reason
All of his foreign "expertise" and contacts and skills!

Na, it was the Iroc-Z. That thing is bad ass.

734 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:15:26am

army tank riders are giving thumbs up to the protesters....

735 albusteve  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:15:27am

re: #730 sattv4u2

HOLD THE WEDDIN

I thought Biden was brought on board for one HUGE reason
All of his foreign "expertise" and contacts and skills!

the same Joe that wanted to partition Iraq?.....hahahaha!

736 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:15:53am

re: #734 BishopX

and now the reporter can here automatic fire in Alexandria...

737 Alexzander  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:16:17am

Do you think we will hear of many dead by tomorrow?

738 laZardo  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:16:34am

re: #734 BishopX

Also live gunfire, probably celebratory if the "thumbs up" bits to be believed?

739 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:16:41am

re: #735 albusteve

the same Joe that wanted to partition Iraq?...hahahaha!

Not the craziest idea. ME was partitioned more or less randomly the first time. Maybe you know, ask people what country they want to live in.. I'm thinking of the Kurds right now.

740 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:16:55am

Protesters trying to take Foreign Ministry Building....

741 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:16:57am

re: #737 Alexzander

probably...I've heard the number 10 so far..probably low...

742 albusteve  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:17:40am

re: #739 McSpiff

Not the craziest idea. ME was partitioned more or less randomly the first time. Maybe you know, ask people what country they want to live in.. I'm thinking of the Kurds right now.

not exactly our mission....making one war into a 3 way clustefuck

743 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:18:07am

I will say I think Hillary's speech this time, in terms of content was better.

744 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:18:31am

re: #743 McSpiff

I will say I think Hillary's speech this time, in terms of content was better.

And the Al-Jazeera analyst is agreeing.

745 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:18:35am

re: #742 albusteve

not exactly our mission...making one war into a 3 way clustefuck

I know, I just wish the Kurds could catch a break some day..

746 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:18:42am

re: #726 albusteve

maybe but mass murder can uninspire you pretty quick

It takes more courage than I can conceive of ... I hope there is a force for good watching over Egypt.

747 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:18:44am

re: #743 McSpiff

yeah, she was good...

748 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:18:57am

re: #744 reine.de.tout

And the Al-Jazeera analyst is agreeing.

Wait, does that make me wrong? ;-)

749 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:19:29am

re: #748 McSpiff

Wait, does that make me wrong? ;-)

hehe.
NO!
Yesterday there was some criticism of Clinton and Biden, that's all.
Today, a different story.

750 laZardo  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:20:02am

re: #745 McSpiff

I know, I just wish the Kurds could catch a break some day..

I suppose they would have to settle for Iraqi Kurdistan being the quietest region of the country.

As compared to the Turkish side.

/but I got that impression from Top Gear. What do I know? q;

751 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:20:09am

AJ- "the big decisions are now in military hands not mubaraks"

752 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:20:33am

BBL ... Taking my son for lunch to celebrate the end of midterms.

753 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:21:00am

re: #751 BishopX

AJ- "the big decisions are now in military hands not mubaraks"

I suspect there's a plane on the tarmac, gassed and ready to high tail it to Riyadh.

754 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:21:13am

re: #686 Fozzie Bear

Should Hillary have independently made a pronouncement that runs counter to official US policy, or no? I would think it's common sense that the head of the diplomatic arm of the government isn't in the business of making snap judgements. It is her job to represent official US policy.

To characterize this as her mistake is pure wingnut lunacy.

Well we all know that Hilliary is no Sarah Palin...
//

755 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:21:38am

re: #753 McSpiff

I suspect there's a plane on the tarmac, gassed and ready to high tail it to Riyadh.


the Bahamas

756 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:21:40am

re: #753 McSpiff

I suspect there's a plane on the tarmac, gassed and ready to high tail it to Riyadh.

Disneyland.

757 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:21:43am

re: #753 McSpiff

well the press conference is now more than 90 min late...

758 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:22:12am

Everybody is a comedian...

759 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:23:15am

The Al-Jaz political commentary is first class.

760 laZardo  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:23:51am

re: #758 McSpiff

Everybody is a comedian...

"What do you expect? The Comedian is dead."

761 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:24:02am

MB member is speaking on AJ

762 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:24:02am

re: #759 ryannon

Probably because they don't have time for editorial control...

763 Varek Raith  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:24:03am

We were for democracy in the ME before we were against it.
Funny, that.
Or sad.

764 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:24:08am

It's worth noting that with an increasingly unstable middle east, our energy policy seems increasingly insane.

We are seriously fucking ourselves by not aggressively investing in alternatives to oil. We are just begging for a crisis here by not spending (yes, spending) significant sums pursuing that goal.

765 laZardo  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:24:34am

"My name is Hamdi, I am a member of the Muslim Brotherhood"

WATCH OUT, HERE IT COMES

766 Buck  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:25:22am

In Egypt Israel and the US bought and paid for stability and Peace.

And it looks like they are getting neither.

The foreign aid was simply a bribe to keep Egypt from making war. If anyone had instead paid them to make war with Israel, they would have.

Egypt never fully accepted peace with Israel. Never really participated fully in the exchange of diplomats or trade.

I also think that most people are discounting the possibility that this might be a 'pro democracy' protest, and that the muslim brotherhood or any other fascist group would find it difficult to take over and not promise real democratic reform.

This might be the results of the domino effect that some have been expecting.

767 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:25:29am

re: #762 BishopX

Probably because they don't have time for editorial control...

Just maybe because it's a young crew and they understand the importance of what's going on right under their studios?

768 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:25:34am

Just saw a scroll saying senior members of the MB have been arrested.

769 Alexzander  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:25:43am

re: #764 Fozzie Bear

It's worth noting that with an increasingly unstable middle east, our energy policy seems increasingly insane.

We are seriously fucking ourselves by not aggressively investing in alternatives to oil. We are just begging for a crisis here by not spending (yes, spending) significant sums pursuing that goal.

Unfortunately, we are tearing up the Alberta tar sands instead of investing in longterm transitional projects.

770 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:26:16am

re: #766 Buck

It does seem to be starting out as a pro-democracy protest. It's what it winds up as that is the question.

771 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:26:32am

re: #767 ryannon

That's what I mean...AJ's ground teams are really 1st rate...probably the best TV journalists in the ME.

772 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:27:22am

re: #766 Buck

I believe the traditional term is 'tribute'. Which is exactly what Egypt received, after military failures. Its a nice gig if you can get it...

773 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:27:59am

re: #764 Fozzie Bear

It's worth noting that with an increasingly unstable middle east, our energy policy seems increasingly insane.

We are seriously fucking ourselves by not aggressively investing in alternatives to oil. We are just begging for a crisis here by not spending (yes, spending) significant sums pursuing that goal.

Thorium reactors. Plain as the nose on your face. Problem is, people can't see the nose on their faces.

774 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:28:09am
775 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:28:26am

50,000 people out south of ciaro from the MB guy...

776 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:29:07am

re: #770 Obdicut

It does seem to be starting out as a pro-democracy protest. It's what it winds up as that is the question.

Half a million people go into the streets, one man walks out.

777 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:29:11am

re: #769 Alexzander

Unfortunately, we are tearing up the Alberta tar sands instead of investing in longterm transitional projects.

All the tar sands in the world won't do shit to help us if the ME oil supply goes offline due to political instability. The price will go through the roof, globally, and there will be massive strife, if that should happen.

And of course, we can't be bothered to take that seriously here, because it would require some government spending.

We are being driven into a wall at 100 mph by nihilistic extremists here at home. And half us are cheering like it's some kind of victory to go out in a blaze of principled (but suicidal) glory.

778 Alexzander  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:30:20am

on AJ - 14 year old one of the dead... shot apparently.

779 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:30:35am

I can see it now. People complaining at the gas pump that it costs 15 bucks a gallon, and blaming it on the government. LOL

780 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:31:21am

Foreign ministry has been stormed by the AP...

781 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:31:42am

re: #779 Fozzie Bear

I can see it now. People complaining at the gas pump that it costs 15 bucks a gallon, and blaming it on the government. LOL

And Hugo Chavez dances long into the night…

782 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:31:55am

re: #779 Fozzie Bear

I can see it now. People complaining at the gas pump that it costs 15 bucks a gallon, and blaming it on the government. LOL

Yup,, it's clear that Big Oil is behind this just to drive up prices for more obscene profits!

783 Alexzander  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:32:25am

re: #777 Fozzie Bear

All the tar sands in the world won't do shit to help us if the ME oil supply goes offline due to political instability. The price will go through the roof, globally, and there will be massive strife, if that should happen.

And of course, we can't be bothered to take that seriously here, because it would require some government spending.

We are being driven into a wall at 100 mph by nihilistic extremists here at home. And half us are cheering like it's some kind of victory to go out in a blaze of principled (but suicidal) glory.

Yeah I am aware tar sand oil and similar alternates will not make up for our dependence on the middle east; its a subject I've thought quite a lot about and frankly hold some pretty 'radical' perspectives.
There does appear to be some kind of death drive present in our culture right now. Thanatos.

784 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:33:12am

re: #781 McSpiff

And Hugo Chavez dances long into the night…

And dreams of Allende.

785 laZardo  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:33:25am

re: #777 Fozzie Bear

We are being driven into a wall at 100 mph by nihilistic extremists here at home. And half us are cheering like it's some kind of victory to go out in a blaze of principled (but suicidal) glory.

Hey, I've never been in an injury-causing accident.

/busted a tail-light though on my first drive without a parent in the passenger seat though. ;_;

786 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:33:47am

AJ-feed, people are posing in front a burning police van for pictures...

787 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:33:48am

Damn, it appears this stuff is going to be going on all night.

788 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:34:37am

re: #768 reine.de.tout

Just saw a scroll saying senior members of the MB have been arrested.

UPDATE 2-Egypt arrests Muslim Brotherhood leaders

[Link: af.reuters.com...]

789 Buck  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:34:39am

re: #782 sattv4u2

Yup,, it's clear that Big Oil is behind this just to drive up prices for more obscene profits!

It might be Big Oil, but probably the driver is really OPEC.

790 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:34:45am

re: #783 Alexzander

Yeah I am aware tar sand oil and similar alternates will not make up for our dependence on the middle east; its a subject I've thought quite a lot about and frankly hold some pretty 'radical' perspectives.
There does appear to be some kind of death drive present in our culture right now. Thanatos.

Yes, but we have the best teeth, brightest smiles and cleanest toilets in the world!

791 laZardo  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:35:03am

re: #784 Decatur Deb

And dreams of Allende.

Speaking of which, I went to Bacolod (halfway across "the P.I.") earlier this month and visited the local House of the Spirits.

792 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:35:47am

re: #789 Buck

It might be Big Oil, but probably the driver is really OPEC.

The driver is our demand, and our refusal to invest in other ways of doing things. Blaming your dealer for selling you heroin is pretty fucking stupid when you look at the big picture.

793 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:36:03am

re: #789 Buck

It might be Big Oil, but probably the driver is really OPEC.

And we all know who is freinds with OPEC

Yup,,, He's BAA-aaackk!!
[Link: www.google.com...]

794 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:36:12am

Implications on Israel might be more significant than many folks realize. Israel receives access to Sinai oil fields under Camp David. If that flow is blocked, it could cause significant problems for Israel because Israel is still years away from fully exploiting the Leviathan natural gas field off its coast in the Med.

This means that should it be attacked by Hizbullah or Hamas in a coordinated effort, its ability to respond might be hampered by fuel supplies on hand.

795 dragonfire1981  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:37:11am

re: #697 Walter L. Newton

I'm no Fox News supporter, I just think it's fascinating to see the little bits of bias they are slipping in here and there during their Egypt coverage, at a time when most other networks are just reporting facts.

796 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:37:32am

Al-Jaz mocking Egyptian State Television!

797 McSpiff  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:37:43am

Back in a while

798 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:38:09am

re: #773 ryannon

Thorium reactors. Plain as the nose on your face. Problem is, people can't see the nose on their faces.

[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]
James Fallows has an interesting article on using coal as a transition fuel. Not sure how I feel about it being from a coal burning area and having worked against mountain top removal for a bit, but it's an interesting read.

The Atlantic has had a string of articles over the last year detailing advances in fuel cell, smart housing and community solar that doesn't rely on a smart grid.

Regardless, with out a sane, common sense energy policy that looks works towards real energy independence and investments in the infrastructure, its mostly high thinking and pissing in the wind.

My first move would be dumping all energy sector subsidies and pushing smart grid investments, but with the House the way it is....

799 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:38:10am

re: #791 laZardo

Speaking of which, I went to Bacolod (halfway across "the P.I.") earlier this month and visited the local House of the Spirits.

I'm lost there (though I did like the mesoAmerican lamp.)

800 Buck  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:38:38am

re: #772 McSpiff

I believe the traditional term is 'tribute'. Which is exactly what Egypt received, after military failures. Its a nice gig if you can get it...

I think internally (in arabic) Mubarek liked to call it a tax.

801 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:38:39am

re: #770 Obdicut

It does seem to be starting out as a pro-democracy protest. It's what it winds up as that is the question.

Certainly a mixture of economics and protesting against autocracy.

(CNN) -- Protesters who have taken to the streets in several Arab nations of North Africa are angry at their own governments, and lashing out over some specific problems in their countries. But what they're looking for -- and, in the end, what inspired them to stand up and demonstrate -- is very similar, experts on the region said Thursday.

"They all want the same," said Emile Hokayem, with the International Institute for Strategic Studies in the Middle East. "They're all protesting about growing inequalities, they're all protesting against growing nepotism. The top of the pyramid was getting richer and richer."

Speaking to CNN about the recent demonstrations that have occurred, to varying extent, in Algeria, Egypt and Tunisia in northern Africa, and Yemen on the Arabian Peninsula, Hokayem said the protesters were also standing up "against a high level of police brutality."

"Fundamentally it's a question of dignity. People's dignity has been under assault for decades," he said...

[...]

In Egypt, "the state probably has done more to protect people" from rising food prices by offering subsidies, Cole said. The Egyptian economy was stagnant for decades, but in the past 10 years started to grow -- creating bigger differences between rich and poor, Cole said.

"And I think some of the protest is over the ways in which the labor movements have gotten left behind and haven't shared in the economic growth" in that country, he said.

[Link: edition.cnn.com...]

802 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:39:20am

re: #798 Jeff In Ohio

[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]
James Fallows has an interesting article on using coal as a transition fuel. Not sure how I feel about it being from a coal burning area and having worked against mountain top removal for a bit, but it's an interesting read.

The Atlantic has had a string of articles over the last year detailing advances in fuel cell, smart housing and community solar that doesn't rely on a smart grid.

Regardless, with out a sane, common sense energy policy that looks works towards real energy independence and investments in the infrastructure, its mostly high thinking and pissing in the wind.

My first move would be dumping all energy sector subsidies and pushing smart grid investments, but with the House the way it is...

No, with the smart grid lobby the way it is...

803 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:39:22am

re: #796 ryannon

The experienced reporters are being put on leave because they support the protesters.

and now the curfew is national...

804 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:40:39am

re: #803 BishopX

The experienced reporters are being put on leave because they support the protesters.

and now the curfew is national...

Egyptian Television: Protesters? What protesters?

805 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:40:41am

re: #802 ryannon

No, with the smart grid lobby the way it is...

Who are the Smart Grid lobby?

806 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:40:53am

Tankers in alexandria are shaking hands with the tanks...

807 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:41:14am

re: #804 ryannon

I loved those split screen shots...

808 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:41:25am

re: #806 BishopX

Tankers in alexandria are shaking hands with the tanks...

Everybody is a comdian.

809 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:41:34am

re: #804 ryannon

Egyptian Television: Protesters? What protesters?

Just some Yutes out tailgating pre-Super Bowl!

810 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:41:52am

re: #798 Jeff In Ohio

We already use the fuck out of fuel, so I'm not sure how it'd be a transition technology.

811 Alexzander  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:41:57am

Confused - is AJ saying the military is joining the protesters?

812 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:42:07am

re: #805 Jeff In Ohio

Who are the Smart Grid lobby?

What you said.

813 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:42:08am

re: #763 Varek Raith

We were for democracy in the ME before we were against it.
Funny, that.
Or sad.

It depends on the situation. A popular uprising in Iran would be very different than one in Egypt or Yemen. I think the Iranians have lived under a theocratic dictatorship and have had enough. Egypt or Yemen might see a theocracy as a positive development.
The press is doing a lousy job of speculating what the outcome of these protests might be. I'm nervous about regional instability, ethnic-religious violence and possibly even more repressive regimes than the ones being replaced

814 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:42:35am

And on that note, the long quiet drive home beckons

815 Alexzander  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:42:53am

Are the protesters confused, believing the military is on their side, when to our understanding they are not?

816 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:43:12am

Troops moving into the ministry of foreign affairs...protesters are cheering them and waving flags...

817 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:43:41am

re: #816 BishopX

tankers are waving flags back...

818 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:44:17am

re: #810 Obdicut

We already use the fuck out of fuel, so I'm not sure how it'd be a transition technology.

The transition technology is oil and coal. We are already on the transition technology. Citing coal as a transition technology is a tacit acceptance that we aren't going to do a fucking thing until after we hit the wall, imo.

We don't need an interim solution. We already have that. We need a fucking actual solution.

819 RogueOne  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:44:31am

re: #813 Killgore Trout

It depends on the situation. A popular uprising in Iran would be very different than one in Egypt or Yemen. I think the Iranians have lived under a theocratic dictatorship and have had enough. Egypt or Yemen might see a theocracy as a positive development.
The press is doing a lousy job of speculating what the outcome of these protests might be. I'm nervous about regional instability, ethnic-religious violence and possibly even more repressive regimes than the ones being replaced

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

820 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:45:44am

AJ is reporting the army and police clashing...unconfirmed.

821 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:45:55am

Curfew doesn't quite seem to be working out...

822 ryannon  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:47:47am

Unconfirmed reports of police firing on the military

823 RogueOne  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:48:07am

re: #822 ryannon

Unconfirmed reports of police firing on the military

Not a good idea.

824 Buck  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:49:44am

Lizards who think that oil prices are about to spike can invest in companies that would benefit.

For example only I have been invested in Alberta energy companies for a couple of years because I believe that people in the US will begin to reject energy from 'countries that hate them'.

The US get a majority of the oil they import from Canada, and there are some very stable companies selling energy products (oil and gas) to the USA.

Here are MY favorites.

EnCana Corporation (ECA)
Suncor Energy, Inc. (SU)
Husky Energy, Inc. (HSE)
Talisman Energy, Inc. (TLM)
Petro-Canada (PCA)

There are also very easy to buy mutual funds that are dedicated to Alberta Energy.

---------------------------------------
Of course, do your own research and consult a professional. The above post is from an anonymous person who is not a professional.

825 BishopX  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:50:40am

John Kerry's statement:

I call on the Egyptian government and security forces to exercise restraint in dealing with protesters and to respect the human rights of its citizens to seek greater participation in their own government. The Egyptian government also should immediately restore communications and access to social networking sites. I hope the people of Egypt will continue to remember the lessons and legacy of peaceful protesters from Gandhi to Dr. King and to exercise their right to be heard in that tradition, which will rally peaceful people everywhere in solidarity.

We know that repression will not remedy the problems that leave people in Egypt and across the Middle East feeling hopeless and frustrated. In the final analysis, it is not with rubber bullets and water cannons that order will be restored.

The time has come for governments in the region to urgently improve governance and transparency, open the field to true opposition and new political identities, create real avenues for listening to and considering the wants and needs of their citizens, and demonstrate to younger generations that they will have better opportunities tomorrow than they do today. In the case of Egypt, President Mubarak has the opportunity to quell the unrest by guaranteeing that a free and open democratic process will be in place when the time comes to choose the country’s next leader later this year.

826 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:52:32am

re: #824 Buck

The market can't tackle this one on its own. This won't happen without massive public spending.

The market will only move to address the demand for alternative energy AFTER the technologies we currently have are too expensive to be workable. That's not a solution. That's like saying "after the shit hits the fan, we can pick up the shit", instead of saying "hey, lets move the fan".

827 dragonfire1981  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:02:38am

re: #826 Fozzie Bear

The market can't tackle this one on its own. This won't happen without massive public spending.

The market will only move to address the demand for alternative energy AFTER the technologies we currently have are too expensive to be workable. That's not a solution. That's like saying "after the shit hits the fan, we can pick up the shit", instead of saying "hey, lets move the fan".

Oh I am totally using that now for all kinds of relevant situations. Thanks for the nice turn of phrase!

828 Buck  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:06:32am

re: #826 Fozzie Bear

The market can't tackle this one on its own. This won't happen without massive public spending.

The market will only move to address the demand for alternative energy AFTER the technologies we currently have are too expensive to be workable. That's not a solution. That's like saying "after the shit hits the fan, we can pick up the shit", instead of saying "hey, lets move the fan".

I agree. However there will always be a need for this energy. Even if there is reduced need, a plan for being "continent" independent would be good. I also think that creating the infrastructure for industry is a really good way to invest public funds. Not picking winners or losers, but for example the Oil Sands needs energy in order to get the oil from the ground. Building a "Green" low-carbon generation nuclear power plant in Alberta would go a long way to help.

829 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:10:12am

re: #828 Buck

The point is to not use oil because of AGW. But you're an AGW denier.

830 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:42:00am

re: #810 Obdicut

We already use the fuck out of fuel, so I'm not sure how it'd be a transition technology.

I'm sorry, what I should have said was Fallow's is suggesting we embrace it as the transition fuel and utilize technology to mine it safely and with as little environmental impact as possible and to make it burn clean. I would add to also make sure the true costs of burning carbon are past on to the consumer via a carbon tax of some sort.

What's different then what we do now is actually seeing coal as the way to a new energy future as opposed to excepting coal as inevitable while doing nothing.

831 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:47:47am

re: #715 Obdicut

Yeah. Exactly. And we're talking about American law.

Uh, no, that was not what I was talking about. I was talking about available legal principles in general.

Also, of the three things you cited in German, the first is about harassment, the second is only about people under the age of eighteen, and the third is about workplace discrimination.

They have nothing to do with the case of an adult father and adult daughter.

Those laws are targeting specific power relationships. If you want to target the specific power that could be abused even in adult father/daughter relationships and not make your definitions be dependend on biological bonds, you will have to target other power relationships (presumably in this case ones that are associated with guardianship and relationships associated with that etc.). That was my whole point. If you are just targeting biological stuff on biological definitions as in the incest laws that might be a convenient way to catch abuse cases with but it's also likely to single out unfairly or even criminalize a lot of behaviours that are simply on par with others when it comes to being safe, sane, and consentual.

832 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:50:41am

re: #831 000G

Uh, no, that was not what I was talking about. I was talking about available legal principles in general.

There's no such thing.

re: #831 000G

Dude, the power differential in the father-daughter relationship does come from the biological bond.

833 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:14:43pm

re: #832 Obdicut

There's no such thing.

Huh? Sure there is. Comparative law, dude.

re: #831 000G

Dude, the power differential in the father-daughter relationship does come from the biological bond.

Does come from but is not identical with.


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