Egypt Updates: January 30, 2011
Chaos
Middle East • Views: 34,254
In Egypt today, Hosni Mubarak is living on borrowed time, looting and violence continue to spread, and the Muslim Brotherhood is beginning to make its move.
298 comments
1 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:05:05am |
Fareed Zakaria is interviewing Mohamed ElBaradei on CNN right now.
| 2 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:07:31am |
re: #1 Charles
Is there a feed?
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Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:10:18am |
| 4 |
zora Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:13:42am |
| 5 |
researchok Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:14:06am |
El Baradei: "The MB has nothing to do with extremism"
| 6 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:16:38am |
re: #5 researchok
El Baradei: "The MB has nothing to do with extremism"
“This is a myth that was sold by the Mubarak regime, that it's either us, the ruthless dictators, or a Muslim al-Qaida type. The Muslim Brotherhood has nothing to do with extremism as we have seen in Afghanistan and other places. The Muslim Brotherhood is a religiously conservative group. They are a minority in Egypt.”
| 7 |
A Man for all Seasons Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:17:21am |
re: #5 researchok
El Baradei: "The MB has nothing to do with extremism"
..and Iran isn't trying to build a Nuclear Bomb
| 8 |
researchok Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:17:27am |
re: #6 Sergey Romanov
“This is a myth that was sold by the Mubarak regime, that it's either us, the ruthless dictators, or a Muslim al-Qaida type. The Muslim Brotherhood has nothing to do with extremism as we have seen in Afghanistan and other places. The Muslim Brotherhood is a religiously conservative group. They are a minority in Egypt.”
And if you believe that...
| 9 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:17:49am |
The very fact that the whole of the Egyptian people stood up on their own against unjust tyranny of Mubarak seems to be a very good indicator they wouldn't take it from the MB either. The liberation in Iraq was forced from the outside, this one grew from the inside. What makes anyone think the MB can take over and just turn Egypt into an equal or worse shithole than under Mubarak with the people who just made revolution just taking it?
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Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:17:58am |
re: #8 researchok
Next time quote in context, thank you.
| 11 |
researchok Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:19:46am |
re: #10 Sergey Romanov
Next time quote in context, thank you.
Yes, I should have done that
That said, your remarks only make my point.
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Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:20:24am |
re: #11 researchok
Yes, I should have done that
Correct.
That said, your remarks only make my point.
Hardly.
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researchok Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:20:56am |
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Ericus58 Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:20:57am |
This was reported earlier from the BBC:
"1732 A new turn in the protests, perhaps: police and security forces are expected to return to the streets tomorrow. The army has been the dominant presence throughout Sunday."
There are now reports on AJ that Security forces are starting to be seen making a presence.
| 15 |
NJDhockeyfan Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:21:42am |
re: #5 researchok
El Baradei: "The MB has nothing to do with extremism"
I have a bad feeling about this whole thing. What are the chances someone without MB support takes power?
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researchok Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:22:30am |
re: #15 NJDhockeyfan
I have a bad feeling about this whole thing. What are the chances someone without MB support takes power?
Unlikely.
| 17 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:23:03am |
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brownbagj Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:23:56am |
re: #8 researchok
Apparently, they are just a misunderstood group that the current dictator used to scare the US. Also, they are someone we can work with.
Geez. I hope for the Egyptian people that the MB do not start to get control.
| 19 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:24:01am |
| 20 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:24:35am |
@monaeltahawy Aljazeera is giving way too much air time to the Muslim Brotherhood speakers
@TheIntefada @monaeltahawy Many members of the Brotherhood work at Al Jazeera Arabic ... my experience being there since 2004
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brownbagj Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:25:19am |
re: #19 Sergey Romanov
While I was watching the interview, that is exactly the vibe I got from him - that they were made to be the boogey man and in reality this was just propoganda from M and that we can work with him. Whitewash is you as me.
| 22 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:26:23am |
re: #20 000G
I've been pointing out that Al Jazeera is a propaganda arm of the Muslim Brotherhood for years. See:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
| 23 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:27:25am |
re: #21 brownbagj
While I was watching the interview, that is exactly the vibe I got from him - that they were made to be the boogey man and in reality this was just propoganda from M and that we can work with him. Whitewash is you as me.
There is extremism and extremism. ElBo indicated a particular kind of terrorist extremism "like in Afghanistan". He may well turn out to be wrong about this, I don't know, but painting his words like saying that MB is not extremist at all is extremely misleading.
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researchok Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:27:42am |
Some clarity on the MB:
Austrian Muslim Brotherhood Organizes Anti-Semitic Pro-Hamas Demonstrations In Vienna
HAMAS (Islamic Resistance Movement)
HAMAS, which includes military and political wings, was formed by the late Sheik Ahmad Yasinat at the onset of the first Palestinian uprising or Intifadah in late 1987, as an outgrowth of the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. The armed element, called the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, conducts anti-Israeli attacks, including suicide bombings against civilian targets inside Israel. Social-political elements engage in "Dawa" or ministry activities, which include running charities and schools, fund-raising and political activities. A Shura council based in Damascus, Syria, sets overall policy. Since winning Palestinian Authority (PA) elections in 2006, HAMAS has taken control of significant PA ministries, including the Ministry of Interior. HAMAS formed an expanded, overt militia called the Executive Force, subordinate to the Ministry.
On October 2, 2009, Damascus-based Hamas politburo chief Khaled Meshaal said the following in a speech commemorating the anniversary of the liberation of Jerusalem from the Crusaders by 12th-Century Islamic leader Saladin (Salah al Din): “As the Crusaders' occupation of Jerusalem ended, the occupation of the city by the Zionists will end.... [J]ust as the Crusaders failed over many decades to falsify the facts of history and geography, so too do the Zionists today fail to falsify their claim to history, the land, and geography. Palestine and Jerusalem will remain Arab and Islamic, God willing.”
Al Qaradawi praising Hitler's antisemitism
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researchok Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:28:51am |
re: #23 Sergey Romanov
There is extremism and extremism. ElBo indicated a particular kind of terrorist extremism "like in Afghanistan". He may well turn out to be wrong about this, I don't know, but painting his words like saying that MB is not extremist at all is extremely misleading.
Misunderstanding.
I should have added a sarc tag.
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(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:29:03am |
DPA: German Foreign Minister assured anti-government protesters in Egypt of his country's solidarity with them [Link: bit.ly...]
Haha, brazen Westerwelle
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Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:30:50am |
re: #24 researchok
Some clarity on the MB:
Austrian Muslim Brotherhood Organizes Anti-Semitic Pro-Hamas Demonstrations In Vienna
HAMAS (Islamic Resistance Movement)
Al Qaradawi praising Hitler's antisemitism
[Video]
As Mohamed ElBaradei said... this is not like we have seen in Afghanistan.
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Kronocide Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:30:58am |
re: #22 Charles
I've been pointing out that Al Jazeera is a propaganda arm of the Muslim Brotherhood for years. See:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
I'm concerned that the MB is the Muslim equivalent of the Council of Concerned Citizens, being a more photogenic/less aggressive front for a more sinister force.
| 29 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:31:17am |
A useful BoingBoing compendium on how to keep up with reports on Egypt right now: [Link: www.boingboing.net...]
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Targetpractice Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:31:39am |
Thing is, I'm betting a lot of dictators are watching the news closely, looking at Mubarak and thinking "Shit, that could be me next."
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brownbagj Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:31:52am |
re: #23 Sergey Romanov
Well, ti seems we get pretty up in arms about the theocrats in the US and they are nothing like the terrorists in Afghanistan yet.
Why should the MB get less concern when they have, you know, actually ties to violent extremists.
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NJDhockeyfan Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:33:05am |
HUNDREDS OF MUSLIM MILITANTS FREED BY ARMED GANGS IN EGYPT
CAIRO – In the wake of sustained protests and riots calling for the ouster of Egyptian dictator Hosni Mubarak, police are vanishing from the streets of Cairo and other major cities across Egypt. In that vacuum armed gangs of men have attacked at least four jails and freed hundreds of radical Muslim militants as well as thousands of other inmates.
The freeing of these adherents to radical Islam may add to the speculation that the outlawed Muslim Brotherhood which is the largest opposition party in Egypt could sweep to power should Mubarak’s government fall. That could then lead to the formation of an Islamic state in Egypt.
Ugh.
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Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:33:13am |
re: #31 brownbagj
Well, ti seems we get pretty up in arms about the theocrats in the US and they are nothing like the terrorists in Afghanistan yet.
Why should the MB get less concern when they have, you know, actually ties to violent extremists.
You must be talking with someone else here, presuming that someone else doesn't have a concern about MB.
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(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:33:46am |
re: #30 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Thing is, I'm betting a lot of dictators are watching the news closely, looking at Mubarak and thinking "Shit, that could be me next."
Kinda like China reacted…
| 35 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:34:31am |
re: #32 NJDhockeyfan
HUNDREDS OF MUSLIM MILITANTS FREED BY ARMED GANGS IN EGYPT
Ugh.
I've read of hundreds of deaths already, related to prison riots, outbreaks and such. Anyone got any comprehensive news source for fatalities in connection with the prisons?
| 36 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:35:07am |
AJE reporting that the police is supposed to be on duty again tomorrow.
I don't think so.
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brownbagj Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:35:13am |
re: #33 Sergey Romanov
Maybe I am taking you wrong then. The interview to me seemed to really try to paint the MB in a positive light - and they are not a positive group.
So I got the sense you were defending them - if not, my bad.
| 38 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:36:04am |
Here's a simple chart:
ElBo says MB is not extremist at all -> ElBo is insane
ElBo says MB is not as extremist as say the Talibs -> ElBo may be right, may be naive or may be whitewashing, but still probably sane
| 39 |
Varek Raith Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:36:07am |
Interesting that many just assume that the MB would take over.
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(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:37:20am |
re: #39 Varek Raith
Interesting that many just assume that the MB would take over.
It's a reasonable bet. Everyone's betting right now.
But if you don't let the people decide what it's gonna be, it's not gonna be democracy, that's for sure.
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Targetpractice Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:37:23am |
re: #36 000G
AJE reporting that the police is supposed to be on duty again tomorrow.
I don't think so.
By this point, only the most deluded or suicidal idiots are gonna don the uniform and take to the streets. If there's one lesson well-learned in past revolutions, it's that those most easily identified as supporting the current regime are often the first against the wall when it falls.
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brownbagj Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:37:47am |
re: #39 Varek Raith
I assume they have a chance as they will be the most organized minority at the time of ultimate chaos. It does not take a vast majority to assume power at a time like this, just enough organization as the vast majority of citizens will not be organized.
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reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:37:57am |
re: #39 Varek Raith
Interesting that many just assume that the MB would take over.
There's a vacuum.
The MB has an organization ready.
No one else does.
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NJDhockeyfan Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:38:10am |
re: #36 000G
AJE reporting that the police is supposed to be on duty again tomorrow.
I don't think so.
If you were a cop, would you face the protesters? I wouldn't.
| 45 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:38:21am |
re: #41 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
By this point, only the most deluded or suicidal idiots are gonna don the uniform and take to the streets. If there's one lesson well-learned in past revolutions, it's that those most easily identified as supporting the current regime are often the first against the wall when it falls.
Every police car on the street now is stolen, if the police comes back how do we know who's who?!! #Jan25 Egypt
| 47 |
dragonfire1981 Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:39:03am |
What do you guys think the chance of a similar uprising here in the U.S if Obama wins a second term?
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Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:39:08am |
re: #37 brownbagj
That's why I have a trouble with "gut feelings". ;)
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ProMayaLiberal Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:39:08am |
re: #35 000G
The recent events part of Wikipedia mentioned roughly one hundred dead, but a Story in one of the previous threads mentioned some sort of incident at a jail or something. So that means that the death toll shown there is very likely a lowball estimate, and that number could be much higher (as in times higher).
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Ojoe Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:39:28am |
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Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:39:32am |
re: #47 dragonfire1981
.1 %
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Fozzie Bear Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:39:35am |
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brownbagj Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:39:56am |
re: #48 Sergey Romanov
I have to use my gut - it is the largest thinking organ I have. :)
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Varek Raith Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:40:02am |
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Kronocide Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:40:11am |
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researchok Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:40:48am |
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Fozzie Bear Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:40:55am |
re: #55 Ojoe
He's a one termer if you ask me.
Yeah, what with the amazing opposition candidates, he's a goner for sure. /
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Ericus58 Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:41:06am |
re: #35 000G
I've read of hundreds of deaths already, related to prison riots, outbreaks and such. Anyone got any comprehensive news source for fatalities in connection with the prisons?
I haven't seen any - but I have just watched a report of one of many that have now made their way to Gaza with the help of the Army of Islam. And yes, he will continue to bear arms against Israel.
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Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:41:31am |
re: #39 Varek Raith
Interesting that many just assume that the MB would take over.
Even more interesting is that some people think they won't
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Targetpractice Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:41:37am |
re: #59 Fozzie Bear
Yeah, what with the amazing opposition candidates, he's a goner for sure. /
You betcha!
/
| 63 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:41:37am |
Precision is necessary even when quoting assholes. That's the whole of my point.
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Varek Raith Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:41:45am |
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Charles Johnson Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:41:54am |
I still don't believe it's inevitable that the MB will end up in power in Egypt. If Obama can convince Mubarak to bail out, and a process begins quickly to set up free elections with a clear timetable, Egypt could still become a model for democratization in the Middle East.
And it's a little hard to complain about the influence of Islamism, when the US encouraged Iraq to ratify a constitution that enshrines sharia law. The simple fact is that any system that arises in Egypt is going to have to deal with Islamists. Mubarak's way of doing this was to outlaw and brutally oppress them, and we're seeing where this approach ends up right now.
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Targetpractice Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:42:03am |
re: #47 dragonfire1981
What do you guys think the chance of a similar uprising here in the U.S if Obama wins a second term?
'bout the same as they were when Clinton won his second.
| 67 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:42:44am |
Tweets, so take their accuracy with that in mind:
FaezaMoghul Faeza Moghul
#KnewIT RT @3arabawy: IT IS NOT TRUE WHAT MSM IS BROADCASTING ABOUT PROTESTERS CALLING ON ELBAREDEI TO LEAD TRANSITIONAL GOVT! #Egypt #jan25
4 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
SultanAlQassemi Sultan Al Qassemi
The key factor is the Egyptian military, if the US gov makes them feel they will lose on aid + military equipment they will abandon Mubarak.
| 68 |
Ericus58 Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:42:54am |
re: #47 dragonfire1981
What do you guys think the chance of a similar uprising here in the U.S if Obama wins a second term?
Zero.
| 69 |
Fozzie Bear Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:42:55am |
re: #61 Killgore Trout
Even more interesting is that some people think they won't
I think people who think they know what will happen next are funny. This could go any number of ways.
| 70 |
Ojoe Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:43:03am |
re: #9 000G
The very fact that the whole of the Egyptian people stood up on their own against unjust tyranny of Mubarak seems to be a very good indicator they wouldn't take it from the MB either. The liberation in Iraq was forced from the outside, this one grew from the inside. What makes anyone think the MB can take over and just turn Egypt into an equal or worse shithole than under Mubarak with the people who just made revolution just taking it?
Wishful thinking. If the MB is organized and ruthless it can cow many times its own number.
| 71 |
lawhawk Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:43:16am |
So much for house arrest. ElBaradei has shown up in Tahrir Square in Cairo.
And SNL went and mocked Mubarak's call to replace his cabinet. It resonates because it's true.
| 72 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:43:51am |
re: #65 Charles
It's a tough call. E.g. outlawing neo-Nazis works for Germany. I guess it stops working when there are too many of them.
| 73 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:44:14am |
re: #47 dragonfire1981
What do you guys think the chance of a similar uprising here in the U.S if Obama wins a second term?
Nonexistant. The Teabaggers have too nice a life to actually risk anything.
| 74 |
brownbagj Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:44:14am |
re: #64 Varek Raith
Depends at what level of military leadership and the number. I doubt it will be 100% for either side.
But organization with influence at time like this usually outweighs majority sanity.
I think it is 50/50 right now. How could anyone know what will happen?
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Ojoe Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:44:21am |
re: #59 Fozzie Bear
Snort. LOL. Need Whig candidate, don't have one.
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reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:44:28am |
re: #70 Ojoe
Wishful thinking. If the MB is organized and ruthless it can cow many times its own number.
I don't know.
They are organized, but do not and would not necessarily have the force of the military and/or the police behind them.
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Varek Raith Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:44:30am |
re: #70 Ojoe
Wishful thinking. If the MB is organized and ruthless it can cow many times its own number.
Yeah, cause that's working so well for Mubarak right now...
| 78 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:44:52am |
re: #73 wlewisiii
Nonexistant. The Teabaggers have too nice a life to actually risk anything.
heh.
True.
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Targetpractice Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:45:21am |
re: #67 reine.de.tout
SultanAlQassemi Sultan Al Qassemi
The key factor is the Egyptian military, if the US gov makes them feel they will lose on aid + military equipment they will abandon Mubarak.
Very good point, whoever the military wins to their side will be the next power in Egypt. All the more reason to keep the MB from gaining an air of legitimacy as the leaders of any new government.
| 80 |
NJDhockeyfan Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:45:24am |
| 81 |
ryannon Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:45:49am |
re: #28 BigPapa
I'm concerned that the MB is the Muslim equivalent of the Council of Concerned Citizens, being a more photogenic/less aggressive front for a more sinister force.
Cue Time Travel Machine Music:
Ahem. (Cough, wheeze)... When I was a young radical leftist back in the mid-sixties, every time we turned around we were accused by the government, the media and the general population of being godless commie-inspired dupes whose preoccupations with peace in Viet Nam, racial integration, good dope and great sex was only the prelude to a takeover of the United States of America by hostile alien life-forms. As it turned out years later with the Free Information Act, our various organizations had been thoroughly penetrated and manipulated by skilled moles and dedicated agent provocateurs: those of the CIA and to a lesser extent, the FBI.
I'm now too old to understand what this has to do with the repeated warnings about the Muslim Brotherhood being behind any genuine attempt at democratic reform in Egypt, but since telling stories like these to others is always more satisfying that talking to myself during my rare moments of semi-lucidity, I thought I'd share them with you. Now it's time to pee and wipe the drool from my chin. Thank you for listening to me, kids.
| 82 |
Fozzie Bear Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:46:07am |
re: #70 Ojoe
Wishful thinking. If the MB is organized and ruthless it can cow many times its own number.
Yeah, that Egyptian population is all about just rolling over in the face of oppression. Just look at them, out in the streets acquiescing to authority. /
| 83 |
ProMayaLiberal Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:46:17am |
The Wikipedia article on the protests say there are at least 115 dead, with 105 being protesters, and 10 being policemen.
| 84 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:46:35am |
justaminute -
I see you're lurking!
*waves*
| 85 |
Obdicut Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:47:41am |
re: #82 Fozzie Bear
Yeah, that Egyptian population is all about just rolling over in the face of oppression. Just look at them, out in the streets acquiescing to authority. /
That's the great hope hope here-- that the protestors, who are already organizing to provide services on a local level, aren't going to give up this freedom quickly, and that even if there is a religiously-based government, like in Iraq, it'll be tempered by democratic institutions.
| 87 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:48:46am |
re: #81 ryannon
Cue Time Travel Machine Music:
Ahem. (Cough, wheeze)... When I was a young radical leftist back in the mid-sixties, every time we turned around we were accused by the government, the media and the general population of being godless commie-inspired dupes whose preoccupations with peace in Viet Nam, racial integration, good dope and great sex was only the prelude to a takeover of the United States of America by hostile alien life-forms. As it turned out years later with the Free Information Act, our various organizations had been thoroughly penetrated and manipulated by skilled moles and dedicated agent provocateurs: those of the CIA and to a lesser extent, the FBI.
I'm now too old to understand what this has to do with the repeated warnings about the Muslim Brotherhood being behind any genuine attempt at democratic reform in Egypt, but since telling stories like these to others is always more satisfying that talking to myself during my rare moments of semi-lucidity, I thought I'd share them with you. Now it's time to pee and wipe the drool from my chin. Thank you for listening to me, kids.
Er... you sound like your still got the good dope!
| 88 |
Fozzie Bear Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:48:49am |
re: #85 Obdicut
That's the great hope hope here-- that the protestors, who are already organizing to provide services on a local level, aren't going to give up this freedom quickly, and that even if there is a religiously-based government, like in Iraq, it'll be tempered by democratic institutions.
That's the upside that many seem to be missing.
There is certainly reason to worry, but there are also aspects of all this that have great potential. It's not all bad.
| 89 |
Kronocide Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:49:13am |
re: #72 Sergey Romanov
It's a tough call. E.g. outlawing neo-Nazis works for Germany. I guess it stops working when there are too many of them.
Maybe. Nazism is much less ambiguous than the MB, with the associated history of success carrying out it's ideals.
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zora Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:49:29am |
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Targetpractice Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:49:57am |
re: #85 Obdicut
That's the great hope hope here-- that the protestors, who are already organizing to provide services on a local level, aren't going to give up this freedom quickly, and that even if there is a religiously-based government, like in Iraq, it'll be tempered by democratic institutions.
Thing is, in times of chaos, people flock to anything that has the semblance of order to it. If the MB's out there, whipping people into line, getting things done, then people are going to see them as the proverbial "man with the plan" and begin to wonder if there's something to the whole religious message.
Not saying the MB's going to just waltz to power, don't think anybody really believes they will, but it's not that unheard of in revolutions for minorities with good organizational skills to watch their numbers blossom into power.
| 92 |
ryannon Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:50:10am |
Quick edit:
"As it turned out years later with the Free Information Act, our various organizations had indeed been thoroughly penetrated and manipulated by skilled moles and dedicated agent provocateurs of whom we were the unwitting dupes: those of the CIA and to a lesser extent, the FBI."
Damned machines work to quick to allow a man to think.
| 93 |
researchok Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:50:33am |
re: #65 Charles
I still don't believe it's inevitable that the MB will end up in power here. If Obama can convince Mubarak to bail out, and a process begins quickly to set up free elections with a clear timetable, Egypt could still become a model for democratization in the Middle East.
And it's a little hard to complain about the influence of Islamism, when the US encouraged Iraq to ratify a constitution that enshrines sharia law. The simple fact is that any system that arises in Egypt is going to have to deal with Islamists. Mubarak's way of doing this was to outlaw and brutally oppress them, and we're seeing where this approach ends up right now.
All fair points, but in the end you can't dance with Islamists.
| 94 |
lawhawk Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:50:34am |
re: #65 Charles
The Egyptian approach was similar to the Iranian approach under the Shah or the mullahs cracking down last year after the disputed elections, the Jordanian approach under King Hussein when dealing with the PLO (Black September), Hafez Assad dealing with the Brotherhood in Hama, etc.
It is the approach that uses military force to crush their opposition, whether it's political, economic, religious, or social. Any threat to their respective regime is handled ruthlessly, and it's a time honored method that goes back thousands of years.
Mubarak faces a choice of doing what's best for him or what's best for his country. He's still preferring the former to the latter, and should he decide that the best interests of the country takes precedence, it is possible that he could circumvent the Brotherhood's chances of gaining power.
Mubarak's chances of that kind of transition become more difficult the longer he waits.
Best chance would be for him to declare a caretaker government and elections to take place within 6 weeks.
| 96 |
ryannon Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:50:52am |
re: #87 Walter L. Newton
Er... you sound like your still got the good dope!
Yes, but I too weak and uncoordinated to light a match!
| 97 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:50:52am |
re: #90 zora
what?
That headline at the link doesn't match Ojoe's blurb -
HOWEVER, several of the Egyptian tweeters have praised Hillary, over Obama.
I found that most interesting.
| 98 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:51:18am |
re: #96 ryannon
Yes, but I too weak and uncoordinated to light a match!
You don't own a match... remember :)
| 99 |
Ojoe Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:51:28am |
| 100 |
ryannon Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:51:51am |
re: #96 ryannon
Yes, but I'm too weak and uncoordinated to light a match!
Let alone roll a fucking doobie.
| 101 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:51:55am |
FaezaMoghul Faeza Moghul
lol RT @Married2aYEMENI: I know someone who WON'T support #Elbaradei ---> @FaezaMoghul :-)
| 102 |
brownbagj Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:52:01am |
re: #88 Fozzie Bear
I hope I am not coming across as missing the upside. There is a real and probably equal chance of good here.
Just pontificating on a serious moment in Egyptian history and using scenarios in the past where small but highly organized groups stepped into power vacuums.
| 103 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:52:32am |
| 104 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:52:52am |
re: #85 Obdicut
That's the great hope hope here-- that the protestors, who are already organizing to provide services on a local level, aren't going to give up this freedom quickly, and that even if there is a religiously-based government, like in Iraq, it'll be tempered by democratic institutions.
I wonder - how religious/conservative/anti/pro-Western is the Egyptian youth in general? Because what we see as protests for "freedom", with all the nifty slogans, may stem from a very different understanding of "freedom".
| 105 |
Ojoe Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:53:20am |
re: #91 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
The Nazis provided order, to name an example.
Mussolini made the trains run on time, to cite another.
| 106 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:53:55am |
re: #105 Ojoe
The Nazis provided order, to name an example.
Mussolini made the trains run on time, to cite another.
Mussolini and the trains story is just that... a story... myth.
| 107 |
lawhawk Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:54:03am |
re: #99 Ojoe
Hillary was on the talk shows this AM to discuss the matter as the President's diplomatic corps representative. That's the official position of the US. If Obama needs to clarify anything Hillary said, he'll have Gibbs or Clinton herself clarify/extend the remarks.
| 108 |
Obdicut Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:54:08am |
re: #105 Ojoe
The changes and improvements to the Italian transport system actually predated Mussolini. He just took credit.
| 109 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:55:02am |
re: #105 Ojoe
The Nazis provided order, to name an example.
Mussolini made the trains run on time, to cite another.
[Link: www.snopes.com...]
| 110 |
Ojoe Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:55:20am |
re: #106 Walter L. Newton
In arrivo al binario undici, a chi sa che ora.
| 111 |
Bob Dillon Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:55:30am |
re: #58 researchok
Resource:
There are two versions - one in english for our "consumption" and another in Arabic. They do not say the same things.
| 113 |
Targetpractice Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:55:58am |
re: #105 Ojoe
The Nazis provided order, to name an example.
Mussolini made the trains run on time, to cite another.
Those were the examples I was thinking of, the Nazis more than Mussolini. When things are falling apart all around, figuratively or literally, people are going to look for somebody who has the appearance of knowing what to do. This has a way of turning men who, in saner times, would be ignored as jabbering loonies into powerful leaders.
| 114 |
Ojoe Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:56:40am |
re: #110 Ojoe
In arrivo al binario undici, a chi sa che ora.
Arriving on track 11, who knows when.
BBL
| 115 |
researchok Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:56:50am |
Europe's Arabs view Middle East chaos in awe, fear
Arabs living in Europe say they have watched events unfold in Tunisia and Egypt with a mixture of awe and fear as governments crumble and a breakdown of order threatens their friends and relations.
Egyptians in London spoke of frantic calls from their family in which they were told of armed criminal gangs roaming the streets after massive protests erupted against the government of President Hosni Mubarak.
"My cousin is calling me, shouting SOS. Criminals, gangs are everywhere, breaking into homes. I'm beside myself with worry. I haven't slept," student Raouf Ghali, 41, said.
| 116 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:56:56am |
| 117 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:57:19am |
re: #108 Obdicut
The changes and improvements to the Italian transport system actually predated Mussolini. He just took credit.
It's a bit like Putin taking credit for rising standard of living (well, a bit), while, of course, it's all in the price of oil.
| 118 |
McSpiff Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:57:37am |
re: #65 Charles
I still don't believe it's inevitable that the MB will end up in power in Egypt. If Obama can convince Mubarak to bail out, and a process begins quickly to set up free elections with a clear timetable, Egypt could still become a model for democratization in the Middle East.
And it's a little hard to complain about the influence of Islamism, when the US encouraged Iraq to ratify a constitution that enshrines sharia law. The simple fact is that any system that arises in Egypt is going to have to deal with Islamists. Mubarak's way of doing this was to outlaw and brutally oppress them, and we're seeing where this approach ends up right now.
You just summed up my thoughts on this better than I could have.
| 119 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:58:01am |
| 120 |
Fozzie Bear Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:58:02am |
re: #105 Ojoe
The Nazis provided order, to name an example.
Mussolini made the trains run on time, to cite another.
Trains only ran on time (if at all) in Italy due to renovations performed over the decade preceding Mussolini's rise to power.
As for Nazis providing 'order', how is smashing shop windows, confiscating capital on suspicion of being Jewish or Communist or even just insufficiently Aryan, and executing retarded children providing order? Even in their earliest years, the Nazi party was a destabilizing influence in Germany. That anything worked at all is a credit to the common German people and their ability to operate in adversity. The Nazi's didn't organize anything other than witch hunts and wars.
| 121 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:58:39am |
re: #70 Ojoe
Wishful thinking. If the MB is organized and ruthless it can cow many times its own number.
You don't think Mubarak's regime was organized and ruthless?
| 122 |
justaminute Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:58:44am |
re: #84 reine.de.tout
justaminute -
I see you're lurking!
*waves*
I'm lurking because I had many hopes for a true democratic government in Iran and know that I have to just sit back and watch. I know the Iranian people are watching this but the government is hanging the protesters they had in prison. The government in Iran may be putting a happy face on the revolution in Egypt but they are probably wary also.
| 123 |
Kronocide Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:58:57am |
| 124 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 10:59:18am |
re: #72 Sergey Romanov
It's a tough call. E.g. outlawing neo-Nazis works for Germany. I guess it stops working when there are too many of them.
They aren't outlawed, per se. Just severely restricted in their freedoms.
| 125 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:00:22am |
For our friends in Colorado... tomorrow night -10 degrees (f), Tues. night -18 degrees (f)... brrr.... I left France too soon.
| 126 |
NJDhockeyfan Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:00:52am |
re: #125 Walter L. Newton
For our friends in Colorado... tomorrow night -10 degrees (f), Tues. night -18 degrees (f)... brrr... I left France too soon.
Brrrr...
| 127 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:00:55am |
re: #124 000G
They aren't outlawed, per se. Just severely restricted in their freedoms.
Well, if they can't go down the street with swastikas and sieg-heils, I would say they're pretty much outlawed (though of course there is always a way for mimicry).
| 129 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:01:54am |
re: #105 Ojoe
Mussolini made the trains run on time, to cite another.
Except that he didn't: [Link: www.snopes.com...]
| 130 |
NJDhockeyfan Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:02:01am |
Clinton: U.S. not taking sides in Egypt
The United States is remaining neutral on who would fill a potential power vacuum in Egypt, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Sunday.
Clinton said the Obama administration was not yet taking sides in regards to a potential new power structure to replace embattled President Hosni Mubarak.
"I'm not speculating about, you know, who goes or who stays," Clinton said on CBS' "Face the Nation." "And I'm not prepared to comment on what kind of democratic process the Egyptian people can construct for themselves."
Clinton said it was hoped the new officials rising up in Mubarak's wobbly government might "contribute to the kind of democratic and economic reforms" the demonstrators in Cairo have been demanding.
| 131 |
McSpiff Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:02:08am |
re: #127 Sergey Romanov
Well, if they can't go down the street with swastikas and sieg-heils, I would say they're pretty much outlawed (though of course there is always a way for mimicry).
And Mein Kampf is still restricted from sale IIRC.
| 132 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:02:40am |
I need to read the whole thread before being a smartass.
| 133 |
Fozzie Bear Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:02:59am |
re: #124 000G
They aren't outlawed, per se. Just severely restricted in their freedoms.
I find myself to be not terribly concerned about the loss of freedom to advocate openly for genocide. Germany has a pretty damn good reason to not have the same 1st amendment freedoms as we do.
| 134 |
researchok Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:03:14am |
McConnell on Same Page With Obama on Egypt, But Not on Spending
When it comes to the political unrest in Egypt, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell says he’s on the same page as the Obama administration.
“I don’t have any criticism of President [Barack] Obama or Secretary [Hillary] Clinton at this point,” the Kentucky Republican said Sunday on NBC’s “Meet the Press.” It’s important for U.S. officials “to speak as one voice during this crisis,” he said.
| 135 |
Targetpractice Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:03:29am |
re: #130 NJDhockeyfan
*deadpan* Yeah, because we all remember how well that strategy worked in Iran.
| 137 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:03:59am |
re: #122 justaminute
I'm lurking because I had many hopes for a true democratic government in Iran and know that I have to just sit back and watch. I know the Iranian people are watching this but the government is hanging the protesters they had in prison. The government in Iran may be putting a happy face on the revolution in Egypt but they are probably wary also.
Oh, I have no doubt that they are!
Good to "see" you anyhow.
| 138 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:04:06am |
re: #131 McSpiff
And Mein Kampf is still restricted from sale IIRC.
No, restricted from publishing, which is different. You can still buy it legally in antique shops and such.
And the ban on publishing has to do with copyright laws (although the state of Bavaria is just abusing them, IMHO), not constitutional or anti-hate ones that are usually used against neo-nazis.
| 139 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:04:18am |
| 140 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:04:32am |
re: #133 Fozzie Bear
I find myself to be not terribly concerned about the loss of freedom to advocate openly for genocide. Germany has a pretty damn good reason to not have the same 1st amendment freedoms as we do.
For that, they can show full frontal nudity on prime-time TV. I will gladly trade that for swastika-toting any day of the week...
| 141 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:05:22am |
re: #138 000G
Hmm. Well, I take it they go the easiest route, but suppose it was not so, surely MK would be banned as Nazi/hate speech?
| 142 |
Fozzie Bear Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:05:29am |
re: #140 ralphieboy
For that, they can show full frontal nudity on prime-time TV. I will gladly trade that for swastika-toting any day of the week...
German culture certainly isn't shy about sex. At all. Even a little.
| 143 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:05:36am |
weddady weddady
RT @AmalSerhan: RT @TrellaLB: RT @Ritakhoury2020: Tweet of the Day: the only one under curfew is Mubarak #Egypte #Jan25 #Tahrir
| 144 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:05:39am |
re: #127 Sergey Romanov
Well, if they can't go down the street with swastikas and sieg-heils, I would say they're pretty much outlawed (though of course there is always a way for mimicry).
NPD-DVU is in several German parliaments in the East. I think that is far from outlawed.
| 145 |
McSpiff Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:05:50am |
re: #138 000G
No, restricted from publishing, which is different. You can still buy it legally in antique shops and such.
And the ban on publishing has to do with copyright laws (although the state of Bavaria is just abusing them, IMHO), not constitutional or anti-hate ones that are usually used against neo-nazis.
Cool, the more I know..
| 146 |
Decatur Deb Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:06:15am |
re: #81 ryannon
Cue Time Travel Machine Music:
Ahem. (Cough, wheeze)... When I was a young radical leftist back in the mid-sixties, every time we turned around we were accused by the government, the media and the general population of being godless commie-inspired dupes whose preoccupations with peace in Viet Nam, racial integration, good dope and great sex was only the prelude to a takeover of the United States of America by hostile alien life-forms. As it turned out years later with the Free Information Act, our various organizations had been thoroughly penetrated and manipulated by skilled moles and dedicated agent provocateurs: those of the CIA and to a lesser extent, the FBI.
I'm now too old to understand what this has to do with the repeated warnings about the Muslim Brotherhood being behind any genuine attempt at democratic reform in Egypt, but since telling stories like these to others is always more satisfying that talking to myself during my rare moments of semi-lucidity, I thought I'd share them with you. Now it's time to pee and wipe the drool from my chin. Thank you for listening to me, kids.
Wanna meet for Prilosec later?
| 147 |
researchok Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:06:56am |
Egyptian police patrols return to streets: state agency
- Egyptian police patrols returned to the streets of cities Sunday, state's Middle East News Agency reported.
Egypt's police were withdrawn after the army were sent in on Friday to restore order in cities amidst widespread anti-government protests.
| 148 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:06:59am |
| 149 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:07:59am |
re: #141 Sergey Romanov
Hmm. Well, I take it they go the easiest route, but suppose it was not so, surely MK would be banned as Nazi/hate speech?
Err... The MB exists in Germany. Their biggest organization is the "Islamische Gemeinschaft in Deutschland", headed by Ibrahim El-Zayat. They are under watch by German's intelligence services, though.
| 150 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:08:21am |
re: #144 000G
NPD-DVU is in several German parliaments in the East. I think that is far from outlawed.
Sure, but that's because they behave "smartly", don't wear swastikas etc. As long as they don't set off the legal traps, everybody will know they're Nazis but there won't be a legal way to "stop" them.
| 151 |
NJDhockeyfan Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:08:34am |
UPDATE 11:16AM EST: Wael Ghonim, head of Google Middle East, has been missing in Egypt since last week. His last two posts on his Twitter page are: “We want #Facebook #Twitter & SMS back. Blocking free speech is a crime.”
And the last one: “Very worried as it seems that government is planning a war crime tomorrow against people. We are all ready to die.”
| 152 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:08:50am |
re: #149 000G
Err... The MB exists in Germany. Their biggest organization is the "Islamische Gemeinschaft in Deutschland", headed by Ibrahim El-Zayat. They are under watch by German's intelligence services, though.
MK = Mein Kampf.
| 153 |
Varek Raith Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:10:48am |
re: #135 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
*deadpan* Yeah, because we all remember how well that strategy worked in Iran.
We never think long term.
And are surprised when short term thinking comes back and bites us in the ass later down the road.
| 154 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:11:45am |
re: #152 Sergey Romanov
MK = Mein Kampf.
Ooops, misread that.
Actually, I don't think that books can be banned outright in Germany right now. They can be banned from being advertised and sold to minors (youth protection laws) and their content can be supressed through defamation and libel laws, but that's it AFAIK.
| 155 |
Fozzie Bear Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:12:35am |
re: #153 Varek Raith
We never think long term.
And are surprised when short term thinking comes back and bites us in the ass later down the road.
Well, you can try to think long term in this situation, but it doesn't do you any good, because if we commit to a prediction of what will happen, and it doesn't happen, we are fucking ourselves.
There really isn't any other move for the US to make other than keeping it vague and waiting it out. It's our only rational move.
| 156 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:12:36am |
re: #154 000G
What about HD books?
| 157 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:13:47am |
re: #150 Sergey Romanov
Sure, but that's because they behave "smartly", don't wear swastikas etc. As long as they don't set off the legal traps, everybody will know they're Nazis but there won't be a legal way to "stop" them.
Well, it's not just symbols but of course also the ideology and political program. The German Communist Party KPD was banned in Postwar Germany because they were judged to be hostile to the constitution in that regard.
With NPD-DVU it's not been as easy. Partly because Germany's intelligence services have so many moles in the party, it's hard to construct a fair trial.
| 158 |
Varek Raith Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:13:52am |
re: #155 Fozzie Bear
Well, you can try to think long term in this situation, but it doesn't do you any good, because if we commit to a prediction of what will happen, and it doesn't happen, we are fucking ourselves.
There really isn't any other move for the US to make other than keeping it vague and waiting it out. It's our only rational move.
What I mean is that our short term thinking seems to always stay short term. It doesn't evolve as the situation does.
Or I'm not making sense.
:)
| 159 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:13:58am |
re: #156 Sergey Romanov
HD?
| 160 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:14:28am |
| 161 |
researchok Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:15:26am |
| 162 |
NJDhockeyfan Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:15:34am |
More horrifying news coming out of Egypt...
Egypt: "I Saw an Old Woman Shot in the Face"
...Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak's attempts to suppress protesters by cutting off internet and cell phone service only seems to be making the situation worse. Thousands continue to defy the police, ignore the imposed curfew, and rally to demand that the current regime step down. And sadly, in some cases the protestors have been met with brutality. "I saw an old woman shot in the face yesterday," Laura tells me.
Even worse, police seem to be shooting people and then beating them afterwards.
We were walking along the Kornish next to the Nile, and we saw these people on the bridge, not even protesting, just looking at what's going on. Police trucks—not military, but police, there's a distinction because they're not necessarily working together—went across the bridge and opened fire on people standing there. Then there were these plain-clothed police—that's the scariest thing, is that they've hired thugs who are dressed in normal clothes and carry canes to beat people—going up onto the bridge and taking them down off the bridge and beating them. Because if you've been shot, that's evidence you're a protester, so therefore you need to be beaten.
Laura and her friend saw a young woman who'd been grazed by a bullet caught amidst a frenzy of canes. They grabbed her and dragged her away from the mob. "We had to link arms with her and walk her through these checkpoints so she would stop being beaten," Laura explains. "It's so fucking unreal. I don't know what's going on."
[snip]
God help them all.
| 163 |
Fozzie Bear Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:15:37am |
re: #158 Varek Raith
What I mean is that our short term thinking seems to always stay short term. It doesn't evolve as the situation does.
Or I'm not making sense.
:)
That I would agree with. We went along with a 30-year 'temporary' fix in Egypt. Now look where it got us.
We armed Iraq, and later ended up fighting them. We toppled a regime in Iran, only to end up with worse monsters in power.
The US is its own worst enemy, imo.
| 164 |
Fozzie Bear Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:16:36am |
re: #160 Sergey Romanov
Holocaust denial.
I was thinking "high definition", which, with respect to books, was making me draw a blank as to exactly WTF an HD book would be. Really amazingly high resolution fonts?
| 165 |
NJDhockeyfan Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:16:40am |
| 166 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:17:17am |
| 167 |
Targetpractice Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:18:13am |
re: #155 Fozzie Bear
Well, you can try to think long term in this situation, but it doesn't do you any good, because if we commit to a prediction of what will happen, and it doesn't happen, we are fucking ourselves.
There really isn't any other move for the US to make other than keeping it vague and waiting it out. It's our only rational move.
At the same time, the "hands-off" approach leaves us open to accusations that we don't care about how things work out, just so long as they work out good for us. That any government that takes the reins of power can't rely upon us to be a dependable ally.
| 168 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:18:18am |
re: #166 000G
Well, I know about the punishment, but what about books? I did read that they were either pulped or burned.
| 169 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:18:59am |
re: #164 Fozzie Bear
Nice pictures ;)
| 170 |
Fozzie Bear Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:20:22am |
re: #167 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
At the same time, the "hands-off" approach leaves us open to accusations that we don't care about how things work out, just so long as they work out good for us. That any government that takes the reins of power can't rely upon us to be a dependable ally.
As a practical matter, we don't have the military force at our disposal to jump in, and we don't have the credibility with the Egyptian people (they fucking hate the US, for good reason) to have our endorsement be anything other than a poison pill.
Actually, that gives me an idea. The US should announce it's full and unconditional support for a radical Islamist Egypt.
| 171 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:20:35am |
re: #157 000G
With NPD-DVU it's not been as easy. Partly because Germany's intelligence services have so many moles in the party, it's hard to construct a fair trial.
A perverse Irony: Hitler originally joined the Nazi Party as a police-paid plant.
| 172 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:20:54am |
re: #168 Sergey Romanov
Well, I know about the punishment, but what about books? I did read that they were either pulped or burned.
Again, I don't think it's illegal to possess them or even sell them (privately). I am sure that advertising them (including putting them up as for sale publically) would be criminal, though.
| 173 |
Targetpractice Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:20:59am |
re: #162 NJDhockeyfan
More horrifying news coming out of Egypt...
Egypt: "I Saw an Old Woman Shot in the Face"
God help them all.
I know it's cliche, but it's only going to get worse before it gets better. Mubarak is losing whatever remaining grip he had on the situation and, unless he steps down and is replaced or is removed from power by force, the mobs are only going to get more violent and more ruthless. From the sounds of it, even taking refuge at home is ceasing to be a solution, as criminals are taking advantage of the breakdown in order to loot and pillage to their hearts content.
| 174 |
NJDhockeyfan Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:22:02am |
Israel worries privately as Egypt descends into chaos
Israel's public line on Egypt is clear -- it wants "stability and security in our region," Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Sunday morning, acknowledging that Israel is "anxiously monitoring" what's happening in the first and most important Arab nation to make peace with the Jewish state.
"We must show maximum responsibility, restraint and sagacity and, to this end, I have instructed my fellow ministers to refrain from commenting on this issue," he added.
But former officials will say in public what many believe the government is thinking in private.
In an interview with CNN, Eli Shaked, Israel's ambassador to Egypt from 2003 to 2005, predicted that if Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak's regime falls, a new Islamist regime, hostile to Israel and western nations, will replace it.
"There will be no democracy in Egypt," Shaked said. "If there will be democratic elections in Egypt in the summer or in the very near future (they) will be the first and last democratic elections in Egypt."
| 175 |
researchok Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:22:21am |
Muslim Brotherhood has big head start
The day before Egyptian security dragged him off to jail last week, Issam El-Erian, a leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, was in an ebullient mood.The streets of Cairo were swarming with protesters, many of them young people with no affiliation to his movement. But the challenge they were posing to the regime of Hosni Mubarak, which the Brotherhood has battled for decades, was a source of great satisfaction.
“We are facing a new situation, a wave of change, that is sweeping the whole region,” Mr El-Erian told the Financial Times. “The game is over for Mubarak, he cannot go on and nor can his son take over.”
Egypt’s largest and most organised opposition group has always played a deliberately cautious long-term game, careful not to go too far in antagonising the secular authorities while expanding its social appeal among the population.
| 176 |
Fozzie Bear Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:22:55am |
re: #171 ralphieboy
A perverse Irony: Hitler originally joined the Nazi Party as a police-paid plant.
In his early years, Hitler said he was "just an entertainer". /
| 177 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:23:06am |
re: #171 ralphieboy
A perverse Irony: Hitler originally joined the Nazi Party as a police-paid plant.
It wasn't called the Nazi Party back then, yet. It was just the German Workers' Party.
Fun fact: There was another German Workers' Party created even before the one in Munich that eventually became the Nazi Party. It was created in 1903 in Bohemia, back then a part of Austria-Hungary.
| 178 |
NJDhockeyfan Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:23:59am |
US government issues travel warning for Egypt, urges Americans to leave
The U.S. government on Sunday issued a travel warning for Egypt, urging Americans to leave the African nation 'as soon as they can safely do so'.
| 179 |
Fozzie Bear Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:25:03am |
re: #178 NJDhockeyfan
US government issues travel warning for Egypt, urges Americans to leave
If they weren't already looking for an exit, they need to have their heads examined.
| 180 |
justaminute Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:25:48am |
I love the way Hillary Clinton was on Meet the Press and pointing out the government of Iran has been hanging on to power like Mubarak. They have both been in power for 30 years and a recent election that was fraudulent.
I still don't believe the MB will turn Egypt into a militant Islamic society. The Egyptian people did see what happened in Iran. I hope and think they are smarter than that.
| 181 |
kirkspencer Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:25:59am |
re: #167 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
At the same time, the "hands-off" approach leaves us open to accusations that we don't care about how things work out, just so long as they work out good for us. That any government that takes the reins of power can't rely upon us to be a dependable ally.
You're d*ned if you do, d*ned if you don't. Such is the life of international politics. And bluntly, trusting ANY nation as a long term dependable ally is a mistake.
The problem for the US in this -- as I see it -- is that the situation is very tangled. Mubarak is probably on his way out, but may not be. If the US openly supports Mubarak now it's likely to have problems with the replacement government, more than it does now. HOWEVER, if they play nice with the opposition Israel is likely to get annoyed. Mubarak, whatever his flaws, has held the line of non-conflict since Camp David. Some of the opposition members won't. Some, we just don't know. And if we back the opposition and it's actively anti-Israel that can of worms gets opened.
| 182 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:26:08am |
[Link: twitter.com...]
Whipping the worst fears on American TV-amongst the plethora of erros: "iran's revolution in 1978" [Link: bit.ly...] #Jan25
Problem with "islamists taking over" is that 30 yrs have proven political Islam's failure to provide solutions #Jan25
Also, the biggest hole in "islamist at the gate" is a failure to grasp what just happened: islamists r losing big time #Jan25
Yesterday in Cairo when Brotherhood members began chant "islam is the solution" they were dwarfed by chant"tunisia is the solution" #Jan25
Islamists are still there and are the ones to stand to lose most from a full blown democracy: the market of ideas opens #Jan25
| 183 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:26:18am |
re: #155 Fozzie Bear
Well, you can try to think long term in this situation, but it doesn't do you any good, because if we commit to a prediction of what will happen, and it doesn't happen, we are fucking ourselves.
There really isn't any other move for the US to make other than keeping it vague and waiting it out. It's our only rational move.
I absolutely agree, even though there are complaints that the US isn't being "supportive enough" of the protests.
Gee.
I'm always amazed that I can be in agreement with some folks here on some things, and way out of agreement on others.
| 184 |
CapeCoddah Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:27:21am |
Good afternoon everyone, hope you are all well.
| 185 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:27:41am |
| 186 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:27:44am |
[Link: twitter.com...]
crowd in tahrir not ikhwan #jan25
(Ikhwan is MB)
we just had an air show of military planes flying at low altitudes tryin 2 scare ppl #jan25
they're trying to delay decisions to exhaust protesters #jan25
with curfew, no restaurants, food or gas. Basic goods will soon b in shortage #jan25
| 187 |
NJDhockeyfan Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:27:57am |
re: #179 Fozzie Bear
If they weren't already looking for an exit, they need to have their heads examined.
I saw a telephone interview with an American student in Cairo this morning. I would have been long gone by now.
| 188 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:28:37am |
Think colonialism is dead? Turn on @CNN & watch white men in suits debate wat role US shud play in deciding the fate of Egyptians #jan25
| 189 |
CapeCoddah Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:28:53am |
| 190 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:28:55am |
re: #50 Ojoe
MSNBC headline wishes Clinton was president; it's a bad time folks.
Not seeing it. Huh?
| 191 |
PhillyPretzel Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:28:56am |
re: #185 reine.de.tout
Interesting indeed. I prefer dull and boring especially now.
| 192 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:28:58am |
This story fell through the cracks this week...
Terrorist Threat At Local Mosque
On Monday, Dearborn Police arrested a California man on suspicion of attempting a terrorist act at the Islamic Center of America. 63 year old Roger Stockham was found in the Mosque's parking lot with explosive materials.
| 194 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:29:36am |
re: #58 researchok
Resource:
Does anyone else start humming 'National Brotherhood Week' after seeing too many articles about the MB?
| 195 |
Targetpractice Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:30:19am |
re: #181 kirkspencer
You're d*ned if you do, d*ned if you don't. Such is the life of international politics. And bluntly, trusting ANY nation as a long term dependable ally is a mistake.
The problem for the US in this -- as I see it -- is that the situation is very tangled. Mubarak is probably on his way out, but may not be. If the US openly supports Mubarak now it's likely to have problems with the replacement government, more than it does now. HOWEVER, if they play nice with the opposition Israel is likely to get annoyed. Mubarak, whatever his flaws, has held the line of non-conflict since Camp David. Some of the opposition members won't. Some, we just don't know. And if we back the opposition and it's actively anti-Israel that can of worms gets opened.
Very good points. I guess I simply look back at what happened in Iran and get a might irked that we sat by and did nothing. The rational part of my mind says speaking out in favor of the opposition would have simply hurt, rather than helped, their cause. But inaction simply rubs me the wrong way.
| 196 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:30:34am |
Hmmm:
@monaeltahawy don't wanna put u down, #Mubarak is winning ground at the moment unless we've proper strategy, latest moves are very dangerous
| 197 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:31:11am |
re: #47 dragonfire1981
What do you guys think the chance of a similar uprising here in the U.S if Obama wins a second term?
Nil.
| 198 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:31:46am |
re: #69 Fozzie Bear
I think people who think they know what will happen next are funny. This could go any number of ways.
True. None of them make me especially happy.
| 199 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:31:56am |
So much about this is about despair and hope, especially the driving forces.
Hard to stay neutral.
| 200 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:32:02am |
re: #192 Killgore Trout
This story fell through the cracks this week...
Terrorist Threat At Local Mosque
Yeah, but 'explosives' is an exaggeration - the article says he had 'Class C fireworks,' which are consumer-level fireworks, not really bombs.
| 201 |
researchok Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:32:16am |
re: #194 SanFranciscoZionist
Does anyone else start humming 'National Brotherhood Week' after seeing too many articles about the MB?
LOL
| 202 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:33:09am |
| 203 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:34:26am |
re: #200 Charles
Yeah, but 'explosives' is an exaggeration - the article says he had 'Class C fireworks,' which are consumer-level fireworks, not really bombs.
Ah, ok.
| 204 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:34:55am |
| 205 |
Fozzie Bear Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:34:59am |
Mubarak just needs to announce an election date (very soon, within days or weeks) and also announce that neither he nor any of his close advisors will be on the ballot. Then he needs to ask the Egyptian people to be patient until then, and promise to maintain order in the meantime.
Then he needs to deliver on that.
Mubarak doesn't get that HE has become a symbol of the problem, and has to go, and many of the protesters don't get that you don't want the government summarily dissolved in a country of 80 million people. You want an orderly transition of power.
I hope cooler heads prevail on all sides.
| 206 |
ryannon Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:35:04am |
re: #163 Fozzie Bear
That I would agree with. We went along with a 30-year 'temporary' fix in Egypt. Now look where it got us.
We armed Iraq, and later ended up fighting them. We toppled a regime in Iran, only to end up with worse monsters in power.
The US is its own worst enemy, imo.
Hypothesis: Since winning WWII, American foreign policy has been one of at best, expediency and at worst, grasping at the straws of our own illusions, our desire of how we'd have liked the world to be - rather than the way the world actually was. It is possible that the enormous effort and sacrifice required to win the Second World War exhausted us invisibly, and despite the general economic expansion and euphoria of the next thirty years, we no lacked the energy and vision necessary to be in phase with a world whose realities were progressively escaping us.
| 207 |
NJDhockeyfan Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:35:48am |
Whoa...check out this video...
Egypt Revolt: Battle for Kasr al-Nil Bridge
| 208 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:36:11am |
re: #202 000G
:-)
I heard them reporting that.
the Al-Jazeera reporter sounded - hesitant to believe it.
| 209 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:36:30am |
| 210 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:37:05am |
Jim Hoft big scoop (via Fox Nation)
As Egypt Burns...Obama Parties, Watches B-Ball
As Egypt continues to burn... Islamic radicals escaped from prison, the Muslim Brotherhood joined Elbaradei on the street, and socialists continued to mobilze protests in Cairo... Barack Obama watched basketball and partied on Saturday.
On Saturday, Obama spent the morning watching his daughter play basketball.
Then on Saturday night he went out and partied with David Axelrod.
| 211 |
Varek Raith Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:37:41am |
re: #210 Killgore Trout
Jim Hoft big scoop (via Fox Nation)
As Egypt Burns...Obama Parties, Watches B-Ball
Facepalm.
| 212 |
Targetpractice Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:37:51am |
| 213 |
Fozzie Bear Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:38:06am |
re: #209 000G
Don't let yourself get weakened or in trouble, or you are on your own. That would be the implicit message to our allies if Obama isn't extremely careful how he handles this.
| 214 |
Fozzie Bear Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:39:22am |
re: #210 Killgore Trout
LOLWTF now the protesters are "mobilized by socialists"? This guy inhabits his own universe of stupid. That's powerful dumb.
| 215 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:39:25am |
re: #163 Fozzie Bear
That I would agree with. We went along with a 30-year 'temporary' fix in Egypt. Now look where it got us.
We armed Iraq, and later ended up fighting them. We toppled a regime in Iran, only to end up with worse monsters in power.
The US is its own worst enemy, imo.
I agree that fixes don't always work, and your examples are good ones. But what would you say we should have done instead of that thirty-year temporary fix?
| 216 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:39:54am |
re: #207 NJDhockeyfan
Whoa...check out this video...
Egypt Revolt: Battle for Kasr al-Nil Bridge
Notice the NDP party building in the background not yet having burned out…
| 217 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:40:31am |
re: #214 Fozzie Bear
LOLWTF now the protesters are "mobilized by socialists"? This guy inhabits his own universe of stupid. That's powerful dumb.
Soros!
| 218 |
Targetpractice Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:40:35am |
re: #213 Fozzie Bear
Don't let yourself get weakened or in trouble, or you are on your own. That would be the implicit message to our allies if Obama isn't extremely careful how he handles this.
Pretty much. We haven't thrown Mubarak under the bus, but we're not exactly rushing to his aid. That can't be very reassuring to our "allies" who are watching their own populations with weary eyes. It doesn't seem to take much these days for the natives to become restless.
| 219 |
PhillyPretzel Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:40:44am |
The latest from The Wall Street Journal (special note: this is a subscribers only article) [Link: online.wsj.com...]
| 220 |
Fozzie Bear Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:41:28am |
re: #215 SanFranciscoZionist
I agree that fixes don't always work, and your examples are good ones. But what would you say we should have done instead of that thirty-year temporary fix?
A bit... no a LOT more pressure on the regime to hold actual elections or face losing our support. The rather uncomfortable fact is that Egypt was able to be repressive for so long because of our support of Israel. We were willing to accept one kind of devil out of fear of another.
| 221 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:41:56am |
re: #207 NJDhockeyfan
Whoa...check out this video...
Egypt Revolt: Battle for Kasr al-Nil Bridge
Fuck… driving over their own people (2:43)
| 222 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:42:13am |
re: #213 Fozzie Bear
Don't let yourself get weakened or in trouble, or you are on your own. That would be the implicit message to our allies if Obama isn't extremely careful how he handles this.
"We will support you as long as you don't have an uprising," translates to "Oppress those masses! FREEDOM WILL KILL YA!!!"
Unfortunately.
| 223 |
Varek Raith Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:43:00am |
My apologies for coming off as an ass the past few days.
This situation in Egypt is infuriating.
| 224 |
NJDhockeyfan Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:43:16am |
outtacontext RT @Anon_VV: Everything ██is█████ ████ ████fine ███ █ ████ love. ████ █████ the ███ Egypt ███ ████ government ██ #jan25 #Egypt #censorship
| 225 |
Fozzie Bear Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:43:24am |
re: #218 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
It doesn't seem to take much these days for the natives to become restless.
The natives couldn't all talk to each other and plan before. Now they can. The internet has changed everything.
| 227 |
Targetpractice Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:45:19am |
re: #225 Fozzie Bear
The natives couldn't all talk to each other and plan before. Now they can. The internet has changed everything.
Yep. And, as Egypt has shown, yanking the plug as (relatively) unlimited freedom tends to only add fuel to the fire, not extinguish it.
| 229 |
Political Atheist Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:46:40am |
Where do we get the presumption we even can do anything for, or against Mubarak at this time?
My leftie friends who are most often talking about how we have no right to interfere in other nations affairs are all over this. The right wing makes the same mistake, except based on their false templates.
This looks to me like something we have very little influence on. Apart from expired tear gas of course.
| 230 |
Fozzie Bear Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:47:10am |
re: #227 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Yep. And, as Egypt has shown, yanking the plug as (relatively) unlimited freedom tends to only add fuel to the fire, not extinguish it.
Yep. Only states that can effectively filter the internet itself seem to be able to ride out the democratizing influence of technology. In other words: killing people for tweeting things they don't like.
| 231 |
NJDhockeyfan Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:47:14am |
Some good news tweeted amid the chaos...
jentingting RT @monaeltahawy: confirmed the too-romantic-to-be-true story of #Christians watching the back of praying #Muslims in Alex. #Jan25 #Egypt
| 232 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:47:35am |
Al Jaz interviewing Hamas terrorists freed from prisons.
| 233 |
justaminute Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:47:37am |
I would like to think that our government would deal with dictators in a way that is not hypocritical of our democratic principals. That would make the release of diplomatic cables by entities like Wiki lLeaks impotent.
| 234 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:48:27am |
re: #210 Killgore Trout
Jim Hoft big scoop (via Fox Nation)
As Egypt Burns...Obama Parties, Watches B-Ball
Good gawd.
It doesn't matter where the President physically is at any given moment.
Given today's communication technology - he's always on duty, 24/7/365. There is no true vacation from that job. I'm quite happy to see him attending his daughter's games.
| 235 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:48:54am |
| 236 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:49:13am |
re: #220 Fozzie Bear
A bit... no a LOT more pressure on the regime to hold actual elections or face losing our support. The rather uncomfortable fact is that Egypt was able to be repressive for so long because of our support of Israel. We were willing to accept one kind of devil out of fear of another.
That's a reasonable take in many ways--and it is how we have operated in the Middle East throughout my life, gaining stability through supporting unsavory folks. We might have well been able to press for change earlier.
I'm just asking everyone to clarify the hell out of their positions, because almost as soon as this started, people started popping out of the woodwork around here, blaming Obama and poor ol' Jimmy Carter. I am, frankly, willing to blame Carter for everything up to and including my husband's toothache, but their explanations tend to lack political substance.
| 237 |
NJDhockeyfan Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:49:16am |
re: #232 Killgore Trout
Al Jaz interviewing Hamas terrorists freed from prisons.
Jimmy Carter must be ecstatic.
| 238 |
Varek Raith Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:49:30am |
re: #234 reine.de.tout
Good gawd.
It doesn't matter where the President physically is at any given moment.
Given today's communication technology - he's always on duty, 24/7/365. There is no true vacation from that job. I'm quite happy to see him attending his daughter's games.
Presidents + Time away from job = LOLYEAHRIGHT.
| 239 |
Fozzie Bear Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:49:38am |
re: #210 Killgore Trout
"Obama is still reportedly enjoying eating food while millions starve. More news about the insensitive bastard's selfishness after the break."
| 240 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:50:10am |
re: #207 NJDhockeyfan
Whoa...check out this video...
Egypt Revolt: Battle for Kasr al-Nil Bridge
Seeing the police run… and the people finally taking the bridge… was epic.
| 241 |
Fozzie Bear Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:50:13am |
| 242 |
PhillyPretzel Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:50:32am |
re: #235 Killgore Trout
They need to go back to school and try to learn some geography.
| 243 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:51:57am |
re: #235 Killgore Trout
LOL.
Comments are funny too:
Now that's what I call liberating a country. It's not even there any more.
REPLY REPORT ABUSE
by pilotshark (July 27, 2009 5:44 pm ET) 3 2
That is just way to funny.
i see that no child left behind is working for the foxnews history fools.
shaking head
REPLY REPORT ABUSE
by worrierking (July 27, 2009 6:05 pm ET) 6
This just in, Egypt annexes Iraq.
Is this some kind of new birfers geografy?
REPLY REPORT ABUSE
by wookie (July 27, 2009 6:09 pm ET) 18
See, this is what I like about Fox. They let you decide where Egypt is instead of having some fancy pants elitist tell ya!
| 244 |
kirkspencer Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:51:58am |
re: #218 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Pretty much. We haven't thrown Mubarak under the bus, but we're not exactly rushing to his aid. That can't be very reassuring to our "allies" who are watching their own populations with weary eyes. It doesn't seem to take much these days for the natives to become restless.
Counterargument: "if you're going to refuse to clean up your act, well, you could be the next Mubarak. There are always options."
| 245 |
NJDhockeyfan Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:52:17am |
The news coming out of Egypt tomorrow morning could be nasty...
AmoonaE RT @marmite_news: Reports that the police will retake Cairo tomorrow. Things could get ugly. #Egypt #Jan25 via @ianinegypt
| 246 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:52:19am |
re: #229 Rightwingconspirator
Where do we get the presumption we even can do anything for, or against Mubarak at this time?
My leftie friends who are most often talking about how we have no right to interfere in other nations affairs are all over this. The right wing makes the same mistake, except based on their false templates.
This looks to me like something we have very little influence on. Apart from expired tear gas of course.
I'm not sure we can do much right now except watch, hope, and make phone calls.
| 247 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:52:25am |
| 248 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:53:17am |
re: #234 reine.de.tout
Good gawd.
It doesn't matter where the President physically is at any given moment.
Given today's communication technology - he's always on duty, 24/7/365. There is no true vacation from that job. I'm quite happy to see him attending his daughter's games.
Reine, you don't get it. Obama should be sitting at his desk, looking very, very serious. Something big is happening!!!
//
| 249 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:53:28am |
Smart guy:
We should have all police officers uniform showing their names and badge numbers clearly on their uniform after all this #Jan25 Egypt
We still don't have this in most of Germany, today. Never take this shit for granted.
| 250 |
Varek Raith Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:53:42am |
re: #238 Varek Raith
Presidents + Time away from job = LOLYEAHRIGHT.
The President probably can't even take a piss without some jerk knocking on the door, "Sir, there is an urgent matter that requires your immediate attention."
/
| 251 |
Targetpractice Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:54:01am |
re: #244 kirkspencer
Counterargument: "if you're going to refuse to clean up your act, well, you could be the next Mubarak. There are always options."
It doesn't really carry much weight these days, that threat. Ask the House of Saud.
| 252 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:54:08am |
re: #248 SanFranciscoZionist
Reine, you don't get it. Obama should be sitting at his desk, looking very, very serious. Something big is happening!!!
//
I know, I know.
A reg'lar RINO, I am.
A friend sent me a little Rhino statue. LOL. I have it sitting on the shelf just above where I'm sitting right now.
| 253 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:55:28am |
Heh:
| 254 |
Political Atheist Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:55:29am |
re: #246 SanFranciscoZionist
I feel pretty sure our best visible policy is neutral platitudes and staying out of the way. Smoothing the way for Mubarak to reform or depart from well behind the scenes would be a different story, as usual with geopolitics.
| 255 |
PhillyPretzel Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:55:39am |
re: #252 reine.de.tout
I am a UMINO. Union Member in name only.
| 256 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:55:54am |
re: #250 Varek Raith
The President probably can't even take a piss without some jerk knocking on the door, "Sir, there is an urgent matter that requires your immediate attention."
/
Sounds sorta like the job of being "Mom!".
| 257 |
Targetpractice Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:55:58am |
re: #245 NJDhockeyfan
The news coming out of Egypt tomorrow morning could be nasty...
I'm wondering how many are stupid or crazy enough to put on the uniform and follow the orders of a government that seems to be on its way out. Unless they're pulling the Soviet method of putting something even scarier behind those cops, they're not "re-taking" anything.
| 258 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:56:41am |
re: #241 Fozzie Bear
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Omg that graphic really just explains everything.
Either that, or I have been very confused about how the Suez Canal works for many, many years.
| 259 |
CapeCoddah Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:56:45am |
re: #256 reine.de.tout
LOL, If you want your kids attention, simply sit on the couch and open a book.
| 260 |
Varek Raith Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:57:32am |
re: #258 SanFranciscoZionist
Either that, or I have been very confused about how the Suez Canal works for many, many years.
Think tunnel.
Big, humongous tunnel.
Through the center of the Earth.
| 261 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:57:40am |
re: #259 CapeCoddah
LOL, If you want your kids attention, simply sit on the couch and open a book.
OR, get on the phone, OR go to the bathroom.
There were times I would have the dog, 3 cats and the kid in the bathroom with me. And it's a really small bathroom.
| 263 |
NJDhockeyfan Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:58:31am |
re: #257 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
I'm wondering how many are stupid or crazy enough to put on the uniform and follow the orders of a government that seems to be on its way out. Unless they're pulling the Soviet method of putting something even scarier behind those cops, they're not "re-taking" anything.
I wonder how many of the 'officers' are real and how many are MB, Hamas, etc...wearing stolen uniforms?
| 264 |
CapeCoddah Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:58:41am |
re: #261 reine.de.tout
OR, get on the phone, OR go to the bathroom.
There were times I would have the dog, 3 cats and the kid in the bathroom with me. And it's a really small bathroom.
We are past that now, thank god, you and I. Now it is just the dogs and cats.
| 265 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:58:57am |
[Link: twitter.com...]
And can we have the religion bit taken off our National IDs while we are at it? #AfterJan25
In fact can we scrap the whole ID thing and not have it legally obligatory to carry one? #AfterJan25
Revolutions inspire great civics discourses…
| 266 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:59:32am |
re: #242 PhillyPretzel
They need to go back to school and try to learn some geography.
Don't know much about geography
Don't know much trigonometry
Don't know much about algebra
Don't know what a slide rule is for.
| 267 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 11:59:47am |
re: #264 CapeCoddah
We are past that now, thank god, you and I. Now it is just the dogs and cats.
Heh.
Yep.
| 268 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 12:00:10pm |
| 269 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 12:00:31pm |
re: #266 SanFranciscoZionist
Don't know much about geography
Don't know much trigonometry
Don't know much about algebra
Don't know what a slide rule is for.
I asked my daughter the other day how her calculus class was going.
She told me they're still doing the easy stuff.
gah.
| 270 |
CapeCoddah Sun, Jan 30, 2011 12:01:11pm |
Have I mentioned lately that I detest organized religion? All of them. More people have died over whose god is the best god.
If I were god, I would be supremely pissed to be used that way.
| 271 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 12:01:32pm |
re: #270 CapeCoddah
Have I mentioned lately that I detest organized religion? All of them. More people have died over whose god is the best god.
If I were god, I would be supremely pissed to be used that way.
Now, now . . .
| 272 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 12:01:34pm |
She was cleaning Tahrir square. "I believe some should protest and others should clean", she says. #jan25 [Link: twitpic.com...]
[Link: twitter.com...]
| 274 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 30, 2011 12:01:48pm |
re: #252 reine.de.tout
I know, I know.
A reg'lar RINO, I am.A friend sent me a little Rhino statue. LOL. I have it sitting on the shelf just above where I'm sitting right now.
Awwww.
| 275 |
NJDhockeyfan Sun, Jan 30, 2011 12:02:31pm |
# Finally home. I counted 14 checkpoints on the way #Egypt less than 5 seconds ago via Echofon
# I have walked though no less than 10 checkpoints and still not home. Pretty sure our house is safe #Egypt 11 minutes ago via Echofon
# So many neighborhood patrols. Young and old men man posts check incoming cars and IDs #Egypt 14 minutes ago via Echofon
# passed thru neighborhood patrol. Most holding sticks, teenager holding shotgun. They gave me yellow armband to wear to avoid harassment 22 minutes ago via Echofon
# Army checkpoint in Zamalek. Armored vehicles & several soldiers. Checked my ID, a few questions and I am waved through
| 276 |
CapeCoddah Sun, Jan 30, 2011 12:02:42pm |
re: #271 reine.de.tout
Now, now . . .
Sorry, Fran. But I can't help it. We even got a snotty priest for last rites Thursday. The doctors were in his way.
| 277 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 30, 2011 12:03:06pm |
re: #255 PhillyPretzel
I am a UMINO. Union Member in name only.
I was a UMINO once.
Actually, twice. The first time was particularly hilarious, because my local was in Brooklyn, and I was in San Francisco. Long story. They kept inviting me to picnics, and family zoo days and stuff.
| 278 |
Targetpractice Sun, Jan 30, 2011 12:03:46pm |
re: #263 NJDhockeyfan
I wonder how many of the 'officers' are real and how many are MB, Hamas, etc...wearing stolen uniforms?
That's a thought that should occupy those at the top. Especially in the face of reports of protesters being beaten and even killed by cops trying to "restore order."
| 279 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 12:04:35pm |
re: #276 CapeCoddah
Sorry, Fran. But I can't help it. We even got a snotty priest for last rites Thursday. The doctors were in his way.
ahem. That would be "reine" n'est-ce pas?
I'm ROFL>
But I know what you're talking about.
We've had good priests and awful ones.
| 280 |
PhillyPretzel Sun, Jan 30, 2011 12:04:43pm |
re: #277 SanFranciscoZionist
I am because my accountant told me union dues are tax deductable. :)
| 282 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 12:05:25pm |
Once Mubarak is out, the Mullahs in Tehran will be next god's willing :) #Jan25
Contra NYT: ElBaradei was mobbed by a couple hundred demonstrators in Tahrir tonight. But an even larger number just ignored him. #jan25
Al Jazeera operating in illegal pirate mode in Egypt: [Link: english.aljazeera.net...]
| 283 |
CapeCoddah Sun, Jan 30, 2011 12:06:50pm |
re: #279 reine.de.tout
ahem. That would be "reine" n'est-ce pas?
I'm ROFL>But I know what you're talking about.
We've had good priests and awful ones.
Agreed.
And sorry, I dont speak Spanish!/
| 284 |
NJDhockeyfan Sun, Jan 30, 2011 12:07:07pm |
re: #278 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
That's a thought that should occupy those at the top. Especially in the face of reports of protesters being beaten and even killed by cops trying to "restore order."
Check out the video I posted at #207. They are driving trucks through the protesters running them over.
| 285 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 30, 2011 12:08:58pm |
| 286 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 12:11:05pm |
re: #283 CapeCoddah
Agreed.
And sorry, I dont speak Spanish!/
*snort*
Obviously
Or French, either.
LOL.
| 287 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 30, 2011 12:11:39pm |
re: #279 reine.de.tout
ahem. That would be "reine" n'est-ce pas?
I'm ROFL>But I know what you're talking about.
We've had good priests and awful ones.
My father was once in the hospital, very ill, and they got a priest who happened to be in the hospital to come and see him, and hear his confession.
By the time he left, he'd let my father know that he was in serious deep trouble about marrying outside the Church, and not having me baptized, (thirty-eight and thirty-five years previously, respectively) and pretty much reduced Dad to twitching, existentially anxious, goo.
The next time my Dad was being rushed to the hospital, one of the admitting people asked my mom if they should get a priest, and my father managed to surface out of a torrent of pain to yell that he would wait until his parish priest could get there.
| 288 |
Fozzie Bear Sun, Jan 30, 2011 12:12:05pm |
re: #285 000G
It's really true that AJ has a far better grip on the situation on the ground than any major American news agency. The coverage on MSNBC and CNN is atrocious. I keep flipping back to AJ and BBC, because I am tired of uninformed moron "experts" telling me either extremely obvious things or just spewing bullshit in a sort of free association on American TV.
Gawd, our news media is really terrible at their job.
| 289 |
NJDhockeyfan Sun, Jan 30, 2011 12:12:14pm |
From my vantage point, crowd appears to keep getting bigger in Tahrir Sq. Oppn unity behind Elbaradei may b having fast impact? #Egypt
| 290 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 30, 2011 12:15:09pm |
re: #287 SanFranciscoZionist
My father was once in the hospital, very ill, and they got a priest who happened to be in the hospital to come and see him, and hear his confession.
By the time he left, he'd let my father know that he was in serious deep trouble about marrying outside the Church, and not having me baptized, (thirty-eight and thirty-five years previously, respectively) and pretty much reduced Dad to twitching, existentially anxious, goo.
The next time my Dad was being rushed to the hospital, one of the admitting people asked my mom if they should get a priest, and my father managed to surface out of a torrent of pain to yell that he would wait until his parish priest could get there.
Good for your dad.
Sheesh. The guilt that can be found by some over nothing at all . . .
| 291 |
CapeCoddah Sun, Jan 30, 2011 12:39:50pm |
re: #290 reine.de.tout
Good for your dad.
Sheesh. The guilt that can be found by some over nothing at all . . .
I rest my case.
| 292 |
califleftyb Sun, Jan 30, 2011 12:53:02pm |
As late as Sept 2009 he saw "no credible evidence" that Iran had a nuclear military program. Now he can't see the MB's hand in Egypt. This guy is a weak sister who will soon buckle in order to avoid Sadat's fate. This is all very bad news I fear.
| 293 |
lostlakehiker Sun, Jan 30, 2011 1:02:06pm |
re: #9 000G
The very fact that the whole of the Egyptian people stood up on their own against unjust tyranny of Mubarak seems to be a very good indicator they wouldn't take it from the MB either. The liberation in Iraq was forced from the outside, this one grew from the inside. What makes anyone think the MB can take over and just turn Egypt into an equal or worse shithole than under Mubarak with the people who just made revolution just taking it?
I hope this doesn't happen. It shouldn't happen. It doesn't have to happen. And yet. The Bolsheviks took over from the Kerensky revolutionary government. The French revolution went bad. The Iranian revolution of 1979 went bad. History is full of instances in which a minority group, full of passionate intensity and ready and eager for violence, took over from the original revolutionaries.
Those who stage a revolution must bear this in mind. It's like climbing Everest: the goal isn't exactly to summit. The goal is to summit and get back down alive and uninjured.
The goal of a revolution is a new government, one that can both better serve the needs of the people, and maintain itself against those who would use it as a way station to a new and worse tyranny.
| 294 |
dragonfire1981 Sun, Jan 30, 2011 1:09:38pm |
Ok so we agree that an Egypt like uprising will not happen anytime soon, but is it fair to say the majority of Americans are not too fond of Obama and washington based on the economy and the perceived increase of government involvement in every day life? I think some kind of civil unrest in this country is likely within the next few years. How widespread it will be is anyone's guess, but the powder keg is there.
| 295 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Jan 30, 2011 1:27:26pm |
re: #288 Fozzie Bear
Gawd, our news media is really terrible at their job.
They're good at shovelling bullshit! That seems to be their job these days :D
| 296 |
jordash1212 Sun, Jan 30, 2011 4:02:44pm |
re: #38 Sergey Romanov
It would be nice if we had a more precise definition of the MB than "extreme" or "kind of extreme."
| 297 |
lostlakehiker Sun, Jan 30, 2011 4:06:46pm |
re: #213 Fozzie Bear
Don't let yourself get weakened or in trouble, or you are on your own. That would be the implicit message to our allies if Obama isn't extremely careful how he handles this.
Don't be a jerk who earns the resentment of most of the people and holds on to power long past its expiration date. Don't imagine that the U.S. can whip back the tides of revolution. If it comes to a revolution, and the Army and the Police won't back you and kill the rebels, don't expect us to try and save you.
Somebody was talking about "the writing on the wall" on the news tonight. Think about the source of that cliche. Think about the awful, ponderous inevitability of it.
You have been weighed in the balance and found wanting.
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