Egypt Updates: January 31, 2011

Mubarak shuffles cabinet, Israelis upset
Middle East • Views: 33,239

Hosni Mubarak shuffled his cabinet around today, which placated absolutely no one. But the Egyptian military has so far pledged not to fire on peaceful protesters and seems to be signaling that Mubarak can’t necessarily count on them for a crackdown.

Video

Meanwhile, many Israeli political commentators have harsh words for President Obama’s support for the Egyptian demonstrators, expressing surprise that the US seems ready to dump a 30-year ally, and unease at the prospect of an Egyptian government more openly aligned with the Muslim Brotherhood.

It’s not hard to see why this concerns Israel; here’s a recent interview with Khaled Hamza, editor of the Muslim Brotherhood’s official website, considered a voice of “moderation” within the party:

What about relations with Israel?  What would the Brotherhood do regarding the situation between Israel and Palestine?

We think Israel is an occupation force and is not fair to the Palestinians. We do not believe in negotiation with Israel. As the Muslim Brotherhood, we must resist all this. They are an occupation force and we must resist this. Did you see what they do in Gaza, on the flotilla? Israel is a very dangerous force and we must resist.  Resistance is the only way, negotiation is not useful at all.

So would the Muslim Brotherhood, if in a position of government, help groups like Hamas?

Yes, sure.

Do you recognize Israel as a state?

No.

Jump to bottom

324 comments
1 Kragar  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:36:26pm

People can deal with awful as long as its part of the plan. Its when the plan goes awry that people panic.

2 Four More Tears  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:38:28pm

re: #1 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

People can deal with awful as long as its part of the plan. Its when the plan goes awry that people panic.

That's what the Joker said to Dent in The Dark Knight.

3 dragonfire1981  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:38:54pm

Its going to get a lot worse before it gets better.$5.00 a gallon gas coming, maybe its time to stock up on ammo and food supplies.

4 Kragar  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:39:31pm

re: #2 JasonA

That's what the Joker said to Dent in The Dark Knight.

I'm sure they lifted it from somewhere else and it doesn't make it untrue.

5 John Carroll  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:39:46pm

What a short-sighted mistake it is proving to be for Israel not to have been more flexible in negotiations with the Palestinians. They can't have thought that peace with Egypt was stable, long-term, under Mubarak.

6 LSD  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:40:37pm

Thank you for posting this Charles.
It reveals a great deal.

7 Kronocide  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:40:46pm

As bad as Mubarek is the MB seems to be worse. This is very risky for peace in the region.

8 Kragar  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:41:57pm

re: #7 BigPapa

As bad as Mubarek is the MB seems to be worse. This is very risky for peace in the region.

Its also a real opportunity for something better for the Egyptians if it works.

9 Ericus58  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:42:50pm

I sense a disturbance in the Force....

10 blueraven  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:43:22pm

So President Obama was supposed to be on the side of the protesters in Iran, who want more freedom and open honest elections. He was criticized for not coming out strongly on their side. But now he will be criticized for trying to walk the thin center line in Egypt? Really!

11 Sionainn  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:45:27pm

Federal judge declares health care law void.

12 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:45:55pm

re: #7 BigPapa

As bad as Mubarek is the MB seems to be worse. This is very risky for peace in the region.

Well for a long time "some people" have been noticing the rise of hard line Islamic types in that region of the world... IIRC they were called neo-cons, pretty much shunned as extremists.

13 Kragar  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:46:21pm

re: #9 Ericus58

I sense a disturbance in the Force...

Something concerned?

14 Ericus58  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:47:44pm

re: #5 JohnCarroll

What a short-sighted mistake it is proving to be for Israel not to have been more flexible in negotiations with the Palestinians. They can't have thought that peace with Egypt was stable, long-term, under Mubarak.

After reading your post in the last thread about equating "South Korea and Taiwan" to a possible Islamic state in Egypt - like an Iran...
I'm really interested in your thoughts as to "what" specific items Israel should have been more flexible on?

15 harrylook  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:49:02pm

I'm personally wish Obama had seen the light on Iran, but better late than never. Propping up dictatorships in the M.E. in the name of stability has run it's course. Now we will probably experience some pain as a result, as unsavory/unfriendly islamists flex their new-found power. I imagine it will take time for genuinely moderate forces to gain political power.

If I were in Israel, though, I would probably be upset at Obama b/c they live right next door. What will be painful for us will be downright dangerous for them. Sometimes are interests don't meld perfectly, unfortunately. I do feel bad for the Israelis.

16 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:49:04pm

re: #1 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

People can deal with awful as long as its part of the plan. Its when the plan goes awry that people panic.

So we are expecting Mother Nature to take a dump of 15 inches of white shit (snow) and if we only get 10 inches that's a "pleasant surprise."

Of course all the people who get the day off because of the snowfall, will go to the mall!

That means mall workers DO NOT get the day off and the mall parking lots better be plowed!

17 recusancy  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:49:30pm

re: #14 Ericus58

After reading your post in the last thread about equating "South Korea and Taiwan" to a possible Islamic state in Egypt - like an Iran...
I'm really interested in your thoughts as to "what" specific items Israel should have been more flexible on?

He's probably referring to the Palestine Papers.

18 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:49:50pm

re: #5 JohnCarroll

You betcha.....We all know how dependable any agreement with the Palis has turnd out in the past??
//

19 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:49:59pm

re: #11 Sionainn

Federal judge declares health care law void.

Don't get too excited. The Wingnuts are judge shopping and filing with anyone who they think will give them a favorable ruling. It will almost certainly be overturned by higher courts.

20 simoom  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:50:13pm

re: #11 Sionainn

Federal judge declares health care law void.

Judge-shopping success? (or why plaintiffs from 25 other states joined a filing in Pensacola):

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

In December, Judge Henry E. Hudson of Federal District Court in Richmond, Va., who was appointed by President George W. Bush, became the first to invalidate the insurance mandate. Two other federal judges put on the bench by President Bill Clinton, a Democrat, have upheld the law.

The Florida plaintiffs, led by the state’s former attorney general, Bill McCollum, ensured they would draw a Republican-appointed judge by filing the lawsuit in Pensacola. Mr. McCollum left office this month after losing last year’s Republican gubernatorial primary, but his successor, Pam Bondi, also a Republican, fully supports the lawsuit.

21 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:50:22pm

re: #11 Sionainn

Federal judge declares health care law void.

The fat lady is yet silent.

22 harrylook  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:50:44pm

re: #15 harrylook
Wow, what a terrible post by me, grammatically speaking.

23 Sionainn  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:50:57pm

re: #19 Killgore Trout

Don't get too excited. The Wingnuts are judge shopping and filing with anyone who they think will give them a favorable ruling. It will almost certainly be overturned by higher courts.

Is the next step the Supreme Court?

24 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:51:19pm

re: #23 Sionainn

Is the next step the Supreme Court?

but of course.

25 Kragar  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:51:42pm

re: #18 reloadingisnotahobby

You betcha...We all know how dependable any agreement with the Palis has turnd out in the past??
//

"We agree to a cease fire, but 75% of our group have now formed a splinter group which has decided to keep fighting you. Where is our aid money?"

26 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:51:43pm

re: #23 Sionainn

Is the next step the Supreme Court?

The last step is the Supreme Court. Everything else is in between.

27 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:51:45pm

re: #17 recusancy

He's probably referring to the Palestine Papers.

Which have already been debunked as complete bullshit.

28 recusancy  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:52:10pm

re: #23 Sionainn

Is the next step the Supreme Court?

It would be awesome to see the defense bring Romney in as a witness.

29 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:52:32pm

re: #15 harrylook

I'm sorry, upset at Obama for what? Nobody seriously thinks that he should be backing Mubarak at this point, do they? Isn't it rather clear that he's either on his way out, or, if he stays in power, it'll be through brutal repression?

30 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:52:46pm

re: #25 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

...ah...we gave it to that guy wearing a Blue Helmet....

31 Sionainn  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:52:52pm

re: #26 EmmmieG

The last step is the Supreme Court. Everything else is in between.

Right. I'm just trying to wrap my mind around this...do the other lawsuits filed in other states have to be decided, then appealed, then go to the Supreme Court...or what?

32 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:53:56pm

re: #31 Sionainn

Right. I'm just trying to wrap my mind around this...do the other lawsuits filed in other states have to be decided, then appealed, then go to the Supreme Court...or what?

Actually, in the past, a decision by the Supreme Court on any one ruling affects all states.

33 Ericus58  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:54:05pm

re: #17 recusancy

He's probably referring to the Palestine Papers.

If Johnny is hanging his hat on that, then it should be lively here soon.
That is, if he articulates his thoughts.

34 Alexzander  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:54:08pm

re: #6 LSD

Thank you for posting this Charles.
It reveals a great deal.

Now try reading it again on acid.

35 KingKenrod  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:54:29pm

I doubt if the US is very popular in Egypt right now, since they are widely seen as bribing Egypt into peace with Israel and thus supporting and prolonging the corrupt Mubarak regime while at the same time strengthening Israel. I don't think the President's stamp of endorsement on any party is going to help them out. Obama is doing the right thing - trying to avoid a state collapse and the resulting chaos and violence. Any efforts to support non-Islamist reformers should be strictly behind the scenes. I'm happy Obama hasn't tried to get more involved, like he did in Honduras.

36 harrylook  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:54:58pm

re: #29 Obdicut

Like I said, Mubarak means peace for Israel. Mubarak keeps the bad guys from getting weapons to Hamas in Gaza, e.g. What is going to happen now? If I lived in Israel, I'd be worried. I'd be asking Obama, "What are you going to do to help us out?"

37 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:55:03pm

re: #23 Sionainn

Is the next step the Supreme Court?

It's will probably be knocked down before that. There's a whole process with the circuit courts. I doubt it will go to the Supremes.

38 Sionainn  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:55:55pm

re: #32 EmmmieG

Actually, in the past, a decision by the Supreme Court on any one ruling affects all states.

Yes, I understand that because it's federal. Does the Florida decision now get appealed or does it shoot right to the Supreme Court? Another question I have is can the Supreme Court specifically find one aspect of a law unconstitutional, but the rest of it okay, or does the whole law have to be thrown out?

39 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:56:22pm

Gibbs dances.....

ElBaradei and the Muslim Brotherhood: Today’s Qs for O’s WH - 1/31/2011

TAPPER: ElBaradei told ABC News this weekend that the Muslim Brotherhood is no more extremist -- is not an extremist organization and is no different from Orthodox Jews in Israel or evangelical
Christians in the United States. Does the Obama administration agree with that?

GIBBS: Well, let me -- without getting into a discussion about them, I think there are certain standards that we believe everybody should adhere to as being part of this process; one that is, to participate in this ongoing democratic process, one has to take part in it but not use it as a way of simply becoming -- simply becoming or taking over that process simply to put themselves in power. We believe that any group should strongly weigh in on the side of nonviolence and adherence to the law.


That's some fancy footwork.

40 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:56:35pm

re: #36 harrylook

Like I said, Mubarak means peace for Israel. Mubarak keeps the bad guys from getting weapons to Hamas in Gaza, e.g. What is going to happen now? If I lived in Israel, I'd be worried. I'd be asking Obama, "What are you going to do to help us out?"

What can he do, though, is the question.

It would be rather dangerous for Israel to support the violent repression of protesters agitating for democracy in Egypt. As much as Israel fears what will come in Egypt, I think they're smarter than that.

41 lawhawk  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:57:30pm

re: #5 JohnCarroll

Except it shows the peril of making land for peace when at the flip of a coin you could have a regime next door that is again calling for blood and your destruction. The Mubarak regime kept in place the Camp David Accords. The next regime may not - and if the Brotherhood gets their wish, they could scrap their end of the bargain, even though it was quite profitable for the Egyptian government to have kept the peace.

If anything, it will make it more difficult for Israel to show any flexibility at all. All they have to do is point to Egypt (in a post-Mubarak era particularly if the Brotherhood gets their wish) and say that when the peace deal is as tenuous as that, we're not going to give up territories and make concessions that threaten Israel's security.

42 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:57:34pm

re: #38 Sionainn

Yes, I understand that because it's federal. Does the Florida decision now get appealed or does it shoot right to the Supreme Court? Another question I have is can the Supreme Court specifically find one aspect of a law unconstitutional, but the rest of it okay, or does the whole law have to be thrown out?

Any lawyers here? I disagree with KT in that I think one of these cases will end up with the Supremes. I just don't know how many courts it must go through before that.

43 lawhawk  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:58:37pm

re: #37 Killgore Trout

I'm not so sure of that. There's going to be a split between the circuits, and that will necessitate the Supreme Court getting involved.

44 harrylook  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:59:00pm

re: #40 Obdicut

From my perspective, Obama is doing the right thing. It's not Obama's fault that US policy in the M.E. has been so cynical for so long, and that now there is a price to pay. People in Israel are probably scared, though, and rightly so. The US is practically their only friend, and maybe they feel abandoned.

45 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:59:08pm

re: #43 lawhawk

I'm not so sure of that. There's going to be a split between the circuits, and that will necessitate the Supreme Court getting involved.

I think that was always the plan...

46 Varek Raith  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 12:59:34pm

re: #36 harrylook

Like I said, Mubarak means peace for Israel. Mubarak keeps the bad guys from getting weapons to Hamas in Gaza, e.g. What is going to happen now? If I lived in Israel, I'd be worried. I'd be asking Obama, "What are you going to do to help us out?"

So...
We should be ok with Mubarak violently repressing these current protests?
Despite the fact that the Egyptian military has said they would not harm them?

47 simoom  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:00:22pm

re: #29 Obdicut

I'm sorry, upset at Obama for what?

If you want to see an example of some of the political commentator criticism, I read this editorial in Haaretz just yesterday that blames the President for just about everything imaginable:

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Jimmy Carter will go down in American history as "the president who lost Iran," which during his term went from being a major strategic ally of the United States to being the revolutionary Islamic Republic. Barack Obama will be remembered as the president who "lost" Turkey, Lebanon and Egypt, and during whose tenure America's alliances in the Middle East crumbled.
48 harrylook  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:00:47pm

re: #40 Obdicut

Another thing about Israel, what choice does Israel have? If they support the overthrow of Mubarak, does that gain them any friends? No. Supporting Mubarak doesn't gain them any friends, either. They have no influence at all in the situation.

49 lawhawk  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:01:31pm

re: #42 EmmmieG

Federal court structure:

District court
Court of Appeals (sometimes there are two rulings at this level - a 3-judge panel and then a full court panel)
US Supreme Court.

That's three courts, and at a minimum 3 hearings between the case's initiation and ultimate decision. However, there could be multiple decisions at the different levels below the US Supreme Court - such as when a circuit court rules that the district court inappropriately decided something and remanded for a ruling consistent with the court of appeal's ruling. You could get a back and forth between the District Court and the Court of Appeals that goes on for some period of time before it makes it way to the US Supreme Court.

50 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:01:39pm

re: #48 harrylook

Another thing about Israel, what choice does Israel have? If they support the overthrow of Mubarak, does that gain them any friends? No. Supporting Mubarak doesn't gain them any friends, either. They have no influence at all in the situation.

/but yet somehow it will all be their fault...

51 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:01:52pm

No, wait, I needed to say that in internet speak. Let me restate that.

KT, you are a chowderhead and I spit on your ideas!!!!!

OBVIOUSLY only a moron couldn't see that the Supreme Court is the final decider on such an important decision. You are such a troll!! Your mama wear combat boots to church.

I will now go to another site and post nasty comments about you.


////

52 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:02:00pm

I think the military is the key here. The decide which way things will go. They get a lot of money and equipment from the US and probably don't want to lose that. Who else would give them military aid? The Russians can't help a whole lot. The Chinese might do it but who wants their crappy weaponry? Also I doubt the military is really in favor of canceling the peace treaty with Israel. Even with their spiffy US made stuff they'll stick get their asses destroyed with a week or two of fighting. I think the military is going to stick with Mubarak.

53 Kragar  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:02:26pm

re: #46 Varek Raith

So...
We should be ok with Mubarak violently repressing these current protests?
Despite the fact that the Egyptian military has said they would not harm them?

Nobody likes to admit the fact they've been turning a blind eye to something wrong so they can go about their business. Anyone who tries to absolve the US's role in this is wrong.

54 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:03:08pm

re: #43 lawhawk

I'm not so sure of that. There's going to be a split between the circuits, and that will necessitate the Supreme Court getting involved.

Ok, I'll defer to your more informed opinion. I'm just guessing.

55 Varek Raith  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:03:27pm

re: #53 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Nobody likes to admit the fact they've been turning a blind eye to something wrong so they can go about their business. Anyone who tries to absolve the US's role in this is wrong.

Aye.
Same with Iran.

56 Alexzander  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:03:50pm

re: #48 harrylook

Another thing about Israel, what choice does Israel have? If they support the overthrow of Mubarak, does that gain them any friends? No. Supporting Mubarak doesn't gain them any friends, either. They have no influence at all in the situation.

But they do have the option of not entirely burning bridges with whatever rises politically from the current chaos. If a new Egyptian government emerges that is genuinely a coalition, representing many different perspectives, it may also be a reasonable partner with Israel. Thats highly optimistic, but still a real possibility. Is Israel sides too strongly against reformation, they already side themselves against whatever arises.

57 Sionainn  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:03:58pm

re: #49 lawhawk

Federal court structure:

District court
Court of Appeals (sometimes there are two rulings at this level - a 3-judge panel and then a full court panel)
US Supreme Court.

That's three courts, and at a minimum 3 hearings between the case's initiation and ultimate decision. However, there could be multiple decisions at the different levels below the US Supreme Court - such as when a circuit court rules that the district court inappropriately decided something and remanded for a ruling consistent with the court of appeal's ruling. You could get a back and forth between the District Court and the Court of Appeals that goes on for some period of time before it makes it way to the US Supreme Court.


Thanks!

58 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:03:58pm

re: #52 Killgore Trout

I think the military is the key here. The decide which way things will go. They get a lot of money and equipment from the US and probably don't want to lose that. Who else would give them military aid? The Russians can't help a whole lot. The Chinese might do it but who wants their crappy weaponry? Also I doubt the military is really in favor of canceling the peace treaty with Israel. Even with their spiffy US made stuff they'll stick get their asses destroyed with a week or two of fighting. I think the military is going to stick with Mubarak.

at the end of the day, political power comes from the muzzle of a gun... damn! I can't believe I had to quote that...

59 harrylook  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:04:01pm

re: #46 Varek Raith

So...
We should be ok with Mubarak violently repressing these current protests?
Despite the fact that the Egyptian military has said they would not harm them?

I certainly didn't say that. I'm happy to support an end to the regime, even if it means some unsavory characters get more power in the short term. Israelis may not have that luxury. I'm sympathetic to their situation.

60 lawhawk  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:04:03pm

re: #52 Killgore Trout

They might stick with Mubarak, but then again, they might decide that it is better to prepare a more orderly transition - easing Mubarak out in an "honorable" fashion. They might give him an out and I think the reports about the Army refusing to fire on the protesters was a signal that the military isn't about to murder Egyptian citizens to keep Mubarak in power.

61 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:04:16pm

re: #54 Killgore Trout

Ok, I'll defer to your more informed opinion. I'm just guessing.

How can you be that polite? Don't you speak internet?

62 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:04:29pm

re: #51 EmmmieG

I will now go to another site and post nasty comments about you.


///


Heh, it's getting to be a big club, you'll have plenty of company.
;)

63 dragonfire1981  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:05:00pm

I would like to point out my prior post was intended as sarcasm but I think its important for everyone to keep a close on these events. The eventual outcome will change many things.

64 darthstar  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:05:54pm

re: #36 harrylook

Like I said, Mubarak means peace for Israel. Mubarak keeps the bad guys from getting weapons to Hamas in Gaza, e.g. What is going to happen now? If I lived in Israel, I'd be worried. I'd be asking Obama, "What are you going to do to help us out?"

President Obama isn't the President of Israel, or the Middle East for that matter. Egypt's internal woes are their own. We can (and will) reach out to whatever government forms there and do our best to ensure that stability returns to Egypt and the rest of the apple-cart doesn't get toppled.

Our job is to simply wring our hands, criticize whatever happens as bad in some way or another, and second guess whatever the President does. (/snark in theory, but not in practice)

65 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:06:22pm

re: #48 harrylook

Another thing about Israel, what choice does Israel have? If they support the overthrow of Mubarak, does that gain them any friends? No. Supporting Mubarak doesn't gain them any friends, either. They have no influence at all in the situation.

Israel is fucked no matter what. The only difference is that Mubarak uses a condom.

66 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:06:41pm

re: #62 Killgore Trout

Heh, it's getting to be a big club, you'll have plenty of company.
;)

/btw way, I got the "I hate KT" t-shirt designs ready for your selection... I like number 4 my self.

67 darthstar  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:06:42pm

re: #65 Alouette

Israel is fucked no matter what. The only difference is that Mubarak uses a condom.

Racy!

68 Alexzander  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:07:21pm

re: #67 darthstar

Racy!

Seriously; I had to avert my eyes!

69 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:07:26pm

re: #12 brookly red

Well for a long time "some people" have been noticing the rise of hard line Islamic types in that region of the world... IIRC they were called neo-cons, pretty much shunned as extremists.

Were they, now?

70 lawhawk  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:08:01pm

re: #54 Killgore Trout

With all the forum shopping involved, both sides are gaming out where it will be most favorable to bring suit - both to sustain the HCR legislation, and to rule it unconstitutional. The differences, and the expectations of appeals (and this FL decision will be appealed), will necessarily create a difference in interpretation among the circuits and get the US S.Ct. involved.

71 Alexzander  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:08:15pm

But honestly, is Israel really fucked no matter what? Aren't there some positive possible scenarios?

72 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:08:38pm

re: #69 SanFranciscoZionist

Were they, now?

shaking their heads & saying "I told you so"...

73 dragonfire1981  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:08:50pm

Kilgore, next to. Charles you are one of the best things about LGF

74 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:09:35pm

re: #71 Alexzander

But honestly, is Israel really fucked no matter what? Aren't there some positive possible scenarios?

well short of the MB finding Jesus, no.

75 Alexzander  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:10:31pm

re: #74 brookly red

well short of the MB finding Jesus, no.

ahhhhhhhhh.....?

76 lawhawk  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:11:23pm

re: #71 Alexzander

There's the possibility that a moderate faction succeeds Mubarak and keeps the CDA with Israel. The odds are probably around 25% that happens. More likely is that the cold peace gets that much colder, as Mubarak's successor makes more bellicose statements and pushes for a referendum bringing the CDA under review. If that happens, the odds that the peace deal fails would be quite high.

77 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:11:27pm

Time for the CIA to earn my tax dollars. Buy every single asshole in Eygpt you can find guys. And thanks for your work.

78 simoom  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:11:58pm

[Link: af.reuters.com...]

Egypt's Vice President Omar Suleiman said on Monday President Hosni Mubarak has asked him to start dialogue with all political parties, including on constitutional and legislative reform, a key demand voiced by anti-Mubarak protesters.

The constitutional amendments include easing restrictions on those who eligible to run in presidential election.

"The president has asked me today to immediately hold contacts with the political forces to start a dialogue about all raised issues that also involve constitutional and legislative reforms in a form that will result in clear proposed amendments and a specific timetable for its implementation," Suleiman said in a televised address.

79 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:12:09pm

re: #66 brookly red

/btw way, I got the "I hate KT" t-shirt designs ready for your selection... I like number 4 my self.

I'd like an extra large, a bumper sticker, a coffee mug and a beer cozy.

80 mr.fusion  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:12:48pm

re: #64 darthstar

President Obama isn't the President of Israel, or the Middle East for that matter. Egypt's internal woes are their own. We can (and will) reach out to whatever government forms there and do our best to ensure that stability returns to Egypt and the rest of the apple-cart doesn't get toppled.

Our job is to simply wring our hands, criticize whatever happens as bad in some way or another, and second guess whatever the President does. (/snark in theory, but not in practice)

I think this is the correct mentality. Personally, I feel like we should support Democracy over Tyranny every day of the week, regardless of who is waiting in the wings. If....as it seems is likely in this case....a democratically elected government aligns drastically against our interests then we must take the appropriate action, but we should not meddle in the affairs of the Egyptian people.

81 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:12:59pm

re: #73 dragonfire1981

Kilgore, next to. Charles you are one of the best things about LGF

ur doing it wrong.
/

82 Kragar  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:13:09pm

re: #66 brookly red

/btw way, I got the "I hate KT" t-shirt designs ready for your selection... I like number 4 my self.

One fucking typo and I'm stuck with a gross of "I hate KY" t-shirts. Maybe the Phelps clan will buy some.

83 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:13:18pm

re: #77 The Shadow Do

Time for the CIA to earn my tax dollars. Buy every single asshole in Eygpt you can find guys. And thanks for your work.

I hate to quote Obama but, I think that falls under "failed policies of the past"...

Lord that hurt.

84 justaminute  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:13:42pm

One thing I've heard for years when I go to the ME is that there will be no end to the Israeli/Pali problem until the US quits as an "honest broker" in the peace process. They say how can the US support dictators in the ME and claim to be an "honest broker." The only thing I have never heard a consensus on who would take the US part in the process.

85 Alexzander  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:13:57pm

re: #76 lawhawk

There's the possibility that a moderate faction succeeds Mubarak and keeps the CDA with Israel. The odds are probably around 25% that happens. More likely is that the cold peace gets that much colder, as Mubarak's successor makes more bellicose statements and pushes for a referendum bringing the CDA under review. If that happens, the odds that the peace deal fails would be quite high.

What would it mean if the CDA fell?
Certainty the blockade of the Gazan boarder would be removed - but thats likely to happen in any democratic scenario for Egypt, unless they are threatened with losing the billions of funding from the US and decide its worth playing ball there.

But its not like Egypt would want to be "at war" with Israel right? Maybe I'm really naive here.

86 BishopX  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:13:59pm

re: #71 Alexzander

Well you could get a secular democracy in Egypt which fixes a lot of structural problems in the Egyptian economy, increases tourism and provides lower wage manufacturing facilities for Israeli hi tech companies and also sells oil to Israel.

But that relies on the conservative fundamentalist factions losing...and we all know that isn't going to happen because all Muslims hate wimmins and joos.///

87 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:14:19pm

re: #80 mr.fusion

If you were back in '79 and had the same choice, would you support the Shah or let the Ayatollahs win?

Just curious.

88 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:14:37pm

re: #80 mr.fusion

but we should not meddle in the affairs of the Egyptian people.


Why not?

89 harrylook  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:14:44pm

re: #71 Alexzander

But honestly, is Israel really fucked no matter what? Aren't there some positive possible scenarios?

I'm certainly no expert on Egypt, but the only positive scenario - coalition gov't - probably won't happen. I hope I'm wrong, but I think Israel is in for some violence. I think Hamas is going to take advantage of the situation to arm-up and then attack. I also think Hezbollah has been itching for a fight, and they now seem to be running things in Lebanon. Israel is surrounded. Scary shit for them.

90 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:15:09pm

re: #84 justaminute

One thing I've heard for years when I go to the ME is that there will be no end to the Israeli/Pali problem until the US quits as an "honest broker" in the peace process. They say how can the US support dictators in the ME and claim to be an "honest broker." The only thing I have never heard a consensus on who would take the US part in the process.

why Iran of course!

91 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:15:31pm

re: #5 JohnCarroll

What a short-sighted mistake it is proving to be for Israel not to have been more flexible in negotiations with the Palestinians. They can't have thought that peace with Egypt was stable, long-term, under Mubarak.

My thoughts - see:

re: #14 Ericus58

re: #18 reloadingisnotahobby

re: #41 lawhawk

92 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:15:39pm

re: #83 brookly red

I hate to quote Obama but, I think that falls under "failed policies of the past"...

Lord that hurt.

And well it should

93 Winny Spencer  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:16:35pm

Ron Paul calling for an end to all foreign aid to Egypt on Fox News right now.

94 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:16:44pm

funny question, I almost hate to bring it up, but where is the UN?

just asking.

95 Winny Spencer  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:17:29pm

re: #93 Winny Spencer

Ron Paul calling for an end to all foreign aid to Egypt on Fox News right now.

Should be US aid, of course.

96 aagcobb  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:17:47pm

re: #87 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey

If you were back in '79 and had the same choice, would you support the Shah or let the Ayatollahs win?

Just curious.

I certainly wouldn't send in the marines to fight in the middle of an Iranian civil war. Our big mistake was installing the Shah in the first place; in '79 we reaped what we had sowed.

97 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:17:51pm

re: #93 Winny Spencer

Ron Paul calling for an end to all foreign aid to Egypt on Fox News right now.

Ron Paul would decry aid to a busload of orphans being crushed by a bulldozer. Who gives a rip about RP.

98 JeffM70  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:18:18pm

Israel can hardly expect Egypt to put Israel's concerns ahead of its own. It certainly hurts our credibility when we talk about spreading freedom in the Middle East whilst propping up a dictator simply because of his stance towards Israel.

99 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:18:22pm

re: #94 brookly red

funny question, I almost hate to bring it up, but where is the UN?

just asking.

In New York. Arguing over some technicality on something.

100 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:18:39pm

re: #94 brookly red

funny question, I almost hate to bring it up, but where is the UN?

just asking.

Laughing uncontrollably here.

101 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:18:48pm

re: #84 justaminute

One thing I've heard for years when I go to the ME is that there will be no end to the Israeli/Pali problem until the US quits as an "honest broker" in the peace process. They say how can the US support dictators in the ME and claim to be an "honest broker." The only thing I have never heard a consensus on who would take the US part in the process.

I'll admit I've often wondered how the US gets involved in the first place. Do we volunteer for that role? Are we asked to take it on? Who would take it on if it wasn't the U.S.? Why doesn't somebody else take on that job?

The US walks a very fine line.

102 lawhawk  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:18:59pm

re: #85 Alexzander

The CDA deals explicitly with the militarization of the Sinai, including listening posts, and how far from the border that both Israel and Egypt can station troops. In fact, there were reports today that Israel agreed to let Egypt station army troops in Sharmh el Sheikh to protect tourists there above the numbers as per the CDA. There's still quite a bit of coordination between the two on terror-related matters.

Moreover, the CDA allows Israel to orient its military to deal with the threat posed by Lebanon/Syria (still formally at war but cease fire in place since 1973). A resumption of hostile intent by Egypt would mean that the Israelis would have to once again confront a multi-front war against states with full fledged militaries (Syria/Lebanon) and Egypt. That doesn't include the Hizbullah/Hamas/Fatah threats from Gaza or the West Bank or Southern Lebanon.

Add to that the deals that Israel has to obtain oil from Sinai oil wells, and Israel's security is greatly harmed should CDA fall by the wayside.

103 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:19:21pm

re: #94 brookly red

funny question, I almost hate to bring it up, but where is the UN?

just asking.

Putting together a strongly worded letter?

104 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:19:25pm

re: #86 BishopX

Well you could get a secular democracy in Egypt which fixes a lot of structural problems in the Egyptian economy, increases tourism and provides lower wage manufacturing facilities for Israeli hi tech companies and also sells oil to Israel.

I'm not going to hold my breath.

105 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:19:39pm

Speaking of which, my oldest son learned Robert's Rules this semester.

He taught his brothers. Right now they are having a formal debate on whether they should speak in hillbilly accents or foreign accents.

106 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:19:49pm

Here's another of those great whitewashes about the MB that the lefties love so much....
The Roots of the American Right’s Muslim Brotherhood Panic
It's a great illustration of how the wingnuts have discredited themselves by being extremist idiots. The fact remains that the MB are really horrible folks but the only people who will expose that are the wingnuts who've destroyed their own credibility.

107 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:19:58pm

re: #105 EmmmieG

Speaking of which, my oldest son learned Robert's Rules this semester.

He taught his brothers. Right now they are having a formal debate on whether they should speak in hillbilly accents or foreign accents.

My vote: Hillbilly.

108 mr.fusion  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:20:20pm

re: #88 The Shadow Do

Why not?

It's probably extremely naive of me......but I feel like the democratic process will work itself out. I also feel that any leader put in place that isn't democratically elected and has the support of the US will be looked at as a puppet of the US in the eyes of the people, thereby hurting our efforts (in the long term) of moderation in the ME.

I'm no ME scholar, I'll be the first to admit it (and it's probably evident from my posts), but with all the talk over the last 8 years of "bringing democracy to the Middle East," anything but supporting the people of Egypt and staying out of future elections will be seen my the Muslim world as hypocritical.

Just an average Joe's opinion

109 Winny Spencer  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:20:32pm

re: #97 The Shadow Do

Ron Paul would decry aid to a busload of orphans being crushed by a bulldozer. Who gives a rip about RP.

Unfortunately, the Republican Party seems to give more than a rip.

110 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:20:40pm

re: #99 EmmmieG

re: #100 The Shadow Do

re: #103 reine.de.tout

OK just putting it out there...

111 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:20:43pm

re: #94 brookly red

funny question, I almost hate to bring it up, but where is the UN?

just asking.

Drafting a preliminary condemnation of whatever Israel does after the new government trashes the Camp David Accords. Why do you ask?

112 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:20:46pm

re: #107 reine.de.tout

My vote: Hillbilly.

Boris Badanov is currently seconding a motion while Bubba is objecting to...something.

113 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:20:53pm

re: #98 JeffM70

Israel can hardly expect Egypt to put Israel's concerns ahead of its own. It certainly hurts our credibility when we talk about spreading freedom in the Middle East whilst propping up a dictator simply because of his stance towards Israel.

The US can hardly expect Eygypt to put US's concerns ahead of its own...

Foreign relations 101. Look out for number one.

114 Alexzander  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:21:14pm

re: #102 lawhawk

Thank you - very helpful.

115 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:21:28pm

re: #105 EmmmieG

Speaking of which, my oldest son learned Robert's Rules this semester.

He taught his brothers. Right now they are having a formal debate on whether they should speak in hillbilly accents or foreign accents.

What accents are they using for the debate?

116 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:21:33pm

re: #73 dragonfire1981

Kilgore, next to. Charles you are one of the best things about LGF

Why, yes he is.

117 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:21:50pm

re: #111 SanFranciscoZionist

Drafting a preliminary condemnation of whatever Israel does after the new government trashes the Camp David Accords. Why do you ask?

I just wanted to hear you say it... it sounds so much better coming from you :)

118 zora  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:22:10pm

re: #93 Winny Spencer

Ron Paul calling for an end to all foreign aid to Egypt on Fox News right now.

he has previously called for an end to all foreign aid in the region including aid to israel.

119 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:22:15pm

re: #108 mr.fusion

It's probably extremely naive of me...but I feel like the democratic process will work itself out. I also feel that any leader put in place that isn't democratically elected and has the support of the US will be looked at as a puppet of the US in the eyes of the people, thereby hurting our efforts (in the long term) of moderation in the ME.

I'm no ME scholar, I'll be the first to admit it (and it's probably evident from my posts), but with all the talk over the last 8 years of "bringing democracy to the Middle East," anything but supporting the people of Egypt and staying out of future elections will be seen my the Muslim world as hypocritical.

Just an average Joe's opinion

The talk over the last eight years of 'bringing democracy to the Middle East' WAS hypocritical.

Just my opinion.

120 aagcobb  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:22:56pm

re: #118 zora

So did his son Rand.

121 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:23:09pm

re: #47 simoom

hahahaha those guys aren't fans, lol

AND ANOTHER THING! He's responsible for sunspots and farts! I got it on my blackboard!

122 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:23:28pm

re: #115 SanFranciscoZionist

What accents are they using for the debate?

Really, really bad Russian accents.

123 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:23:41pm

re: #112 EmmmieG

Boris Badanov is currently seconding a motion while Bubba is objecting to...something.

Oh, to be a fly on the wall of your house right now!
How are you not laughing?
Get a recorder out - quick!

124 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:23:45pm

re: #96 aagcobb

I certainly wouldn't send in the marines to fight in the middle of an Iranian civil war. Our big mistake was installing the Shah in the first place; in '79 we reaped what we had sowed.

this

125 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:24:20pm

re: #123 reine.de.tout

Oh, to be a fly on the wall of your house right now!
How are you not laughing?
Get a recorder out - quick!

This has been going on for over a week. Not the accents, but the endless use of Parliamentary procedure.

126 BishopX  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:24:26pm

re: #104 SanFranciscoZionist

Me neither....stopping the kind of endemic corruption that has crippled Egypt is hard and takes times. My best guess at an outcome is some form of parliamentary democracy with a strong and independent military. How free and fair the elections will be is also a major issue. Hopefully it will give off lots of noise and smoke but not do much foreign policy wise.

127 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:24:40pm

re: #111 SanFranciscoZionist

Drafting a preliminary condemnation of whatever Israel does after the new government trashes the Camp David Accords. Why do you ask?

Best answer yet.

128 Ericus58  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:24:52pm

re: #112 EmmmieG

Boris Badanov is currently seconding a motion while Bubba is objecting to...something.

So, who got the short straw as is parroting Natasha?

129 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:25:06pm

re: #125 EmmmieG

This has been going on for over a week. Not the accents, but the endless use of Parliamentary procedure.

Seriously - if you can record it, do it.
Priceless.
Especially a few years from now.

130 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:25:07pm

re: #122 EmmmieG

Really, really bad Russian accents.

not accent! oppression of peoples tongue!

131 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:25:21pm

re: #74 brookly red

well short of the MB finding Jesus, no.

Jesus makes people peaceful?

Lol.

132 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:25:55pm

re: #98 JeffM70

Israel can hardly expect Egypt to put Israel's concerns ahead of its own. It certainly hurts our credibility when we talk about spreading freedom in the Middle East whilst propping up a dictator simply because of his stance towards Israel.

This isn't really about protecting Israel. The real victims and mass casualties are going to be Egyptian and Palestinian. Not only resulting from being on the losing end of a shooting war but also crippling economic sanctions resulting from the open support for terrorism. Then there's also the domestic oppression and human rights of the Egyptians themsleves. The MB only recognized the right of coptic Christians to participate in Egypt's government a few weeks ago. They also don't think women should serve in higher offices of government.
The prospect of the Muslim Brotherhood ruling Egypt is a catastrophe for Egyptians and a minor nuisance to everybody else.

133 lawhawk  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:26:06pm

Holy crap. Just saw that a small plane crashed on the I80 highway near Teterboro Airport earlier this afternoon and no one was injured - which is pretty amazing given the sheer volume of traffic in that area. I frequently take that highway (and Route 17, which runs parallel to the airport's main runway).

Update 4:05 p.m.: NJ.com now reports the plane is owned by the Department of Justice and was loaned to the Bergen County Prosecutors Office as “a cooperative lower-cost aviation asset for law enforcement.” The plane has the Bergen County seal on its tail. A fuel-line malfunction reportedly prevented it from returning to Teterboro Airport. Bergen County Prosecutor John L. Molinelli says, "The craft was operated by a certified flight instructor and flight safety officer who is a retired commercial airline pilot and currently assists the BCPO in its homeland security and safety efforts in conjunction with the U.S. Department of Justice, which owns the plane."

134 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:27:08pm

re: #128 Ericus58

So, who got the short straw as is parroting Natasha?

Nobody, but there was a movement to change Mr. Chairman to Madam Chairman.

Their sister isn't here, and I'm not participating.

Current move is to make the youngest wear a tutu.

135 Kragar  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:27:38pm

re: #131 prononymous

Jesus makes people peaceful?

Lol.

When did that start?

136 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:28:12pm

re: #132 Killgore Trout


The prospect of the Muslim Brotherhood ruling Egypt is a catastrophe for Egyptians and a minor nuisance to everybody else.

IMHO, we're in the middle of a cold war between moderates and extremists in the middle east. If Egypt gets taken over by MB, it's a victory for the latter.

137 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:29:06pm

AAAnd the court is recessed on account of math.

It will be in session again, I promise you.

138 Alexzander  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:29:59pm

re: #131 prononymous

Jesus makes people peaceful?

Lol.

Yeah I'm a bit blown away by that answer too.

139 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:31:07pm

Possibly the wackiest wingnut post on Egypt yet: Did Muslim Brotherhood Learn ‘Day of Rage’ Egypt Protest Tactics From Obama Allies Bill Ayers and Code Pink? - Big Government

Good grief.

140 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:31:32pm

re: #138 Alexzander

Yeah I'm a bit blown away by that answer too.

here let me send you the rosetta woods sarcasm course...

141 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:31:43pm

re: #139 Charles

Code Pink! They really get around

142 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:32:20pm

re: #126 BishopX

Me neither...stopping the kind of endemic corruption that has crippled Egypt is hard and takes times. My best guess at an outcome is some form of parliamentary democracy with a strong and independent military. How free and fair the elections will be is also a major issue. Hopefully it will give off lots of noise and smoke but not do much foreign policy wise.

Interesting idea. Egypt gets a democratic parliament while the army upholds the Constitution and can intervene at any time. This sounds like Attaturk's republic, but then again, we see what's happening in Turkey to that arrangement.

143 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:32:22pm

re: #131 prononymous

Jesus makes people peaceful?

Lol.

re: #135 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

When did that start?

re: #138 Alexzander

Yeah I'm a bit blown away by that answer too.

Hm.
Are we about to start with some general Christian bashing?
'Cause I need to log out if that's where you're heading.

144 Kragar  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:32:31pm

re: #139 Charles

Possibly the wackiest wingnut post on Egypt yet: Did Muslim Brotherhood Learn ‘Day of Rage’ Egypt Protest Tactics From Obama Allies Bill Ayers and Code Pink? - Big Government

Good grief.

No.

Next stupid question?

145 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:32:48pm

re: #141 WindUpBird

Code Pink! They really get around

I have a feeling they wouldn't like sharia law much... I could be wrong.

146 recusancy  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:32:53pm

re: #141 WindUpBird

Code Pink! They really get around


Who knew a small group of old white grandmas had such global influence.

147 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:32:58pm

re: #139 Charles

Possibly the wackiest wingnut post on Egypt yet: Did Muslim Brotherhood Learn ‘Day of Rage’ Egypt Protest Tactics From Obama Allies Bill Ayers and Code Pink? - Big Government

Good grief.

More likely they learned their tactics from someone effective.

148 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:33:13pm

re: #139 Charles

comments there lamenting how we didn't execute John Kerry for treason

Wow, people are really something

149 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:33:36pm

re: #146 recusancy

Who knew a small group of old white grandmas had such global influence.

They've got a pink Concorde

150 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:34:28pm

re: #143 reine.de.tout

re: #135 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

re: #138 Alexzander

Hm.
Are we about to start with some general Christian bashing?
'Cause I need to log out if that's where you're heading.

let it be.

151 The Optimist  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:34:45pm

Question- It seems everywhere I look, I often see the statement that Palestinians will never accept an Israeli State and thus Palestinian leaders can never suggest it. Can anyone name a study or poll that indicates that Palestinians would prefer to live in poverty, without rights, without a future, as long as Israel is not recognized?

Can the Palestinian Nakbar really exist they do not recognize Israel?

152 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:35:00pm

re: #12 brookly red

Well for a long time "some people" have been noticing the rise of hard line Islamic types in that region of the world... IIRC they were called neo-cons, pretty much shunned as extremists.

People all across the political spectrum have been commenting on this for a long time. I guess you missed the all complaining from left wingers about supporting the Saudis, supporting the taliban, supporting Uzbekistan, supporting Pakistan, etc.

Claiming it all for yourself is dishonest at best.

re: #143 reine.de.tout

re: #135 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

re: #138 Alexzander

Hm.
Are we about to start with some general Christian bashing?
'Cause I need to log out if that's where you're heading.


Not particularly. Just attacking the idea that being a christian automatically makes one more peaceful.

153 mr.fusion  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:35:38pm

re: #139 Charles

Possibly the wackiest wingnut post on Egypt yet: Did Muslim Brotherhood Learn ‘Day of Rage’ Egypt Protest Tactics From Obama Allies Bill Ayers and Code Pink? - Big Government

Good grief.

It's like that show on History Channel, Ancient Aliens

"Is the moon actually a base for our alien overlords? No, it's not....but we found a few people who think it is and here's what they have to say about it."

PS--- Ancient Aliens rocks

154 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:35:59pm

Also important to know that the protests are still growing massively in size.

And that they have been giving the army demands to decide until Friday which side they're on. Because then they plan to march on the palace.

155 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:36:26pm

re: #152 prononymous

People all across the political spectrum have been commenting on this for a long time. I guess you missed the all complaining from left wingers about supporting the Saudis, supporting the taliban, supporting Uzbekistan, supporting Pakistan, etc.

Claiming it all for yourself is dishonest at best.

re: #143 reine.de.tout


Not particularly. Just attacking the idea that being a christian automatically makes one more peaceful.

yeah whatever...

156 Alexzander  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:37:31pm

re: #143 reine.de.tout

re: #135 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

re: #138 Alexzander

Hm.
Are we about to start with some general Christian bashing?
'Cause I need to log out if that's where you're heading.

No not at all. It just seemed rather monolithic to suggest that the only way things could go well in Egypt was for the MB to become Christian. I honestly just wasn't sure if it was a serious comment or not. Taken literally, I'd say Red Brooklin's comment was pretty clearly Muslim bashing. But apparently it was sarcasm so whatever.

157 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:38:36pm

re: #152 prononymous

re: #143 reine.de.tout


Not particularly. Just attacking the idea that being a christian automatically makes one more peaceful.

Which is why I used the term "general".
I don't do any atheist bashing.
And appreciate the similar courtesy.

158 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:39:07pm

re: #152 prononymous

People all across the political spectrum have been commenting on this for a long time. I guess you missed the all complaining from left wingers about supporting the Saudis, supporting the taliban, supporting Uzbekistan, supporting Pakistan, etc.

Claiming it all for yourself is dishonest at best.

re: #143 reine.de.tout


Not particularly. Just attacking the idea that being a christian automatically makes one more peaceful.

Oh for Pete's sake! I suggested the Muslim Brotherhood was not going to change... and you read what you wanted to read into it. WTF were you thinking?

159 The Optimist  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:39:56pm

Egyptians will be going down the Nile without a paddle if the Muslim Brotherhood takes power. The MB is a hate organization, not democracy proponents, not human rights advocates, not economic development experts. Leaders that hate teach hate.

One MB war with Israel and the Egyptians will be wishing Mubarak was still in charge.

160 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:40:05pm

re: #157 reine.de.tout

re: #143 reine.de.tout

Not particularly. Just attacking the idea that being a christian automatically makes one more peaceful.

Which is why I used the term "general".
I don't do any atheist bashing.
And appreciate the similar courtesy.

courtesy?

161 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:40:14pm

Cable: "Presidential succession in Egypt" [Link: wikileaks.ch...]

excerpt:

MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD
——————

¶15. (C) WHILE THE SPECTER OF AN MB PRESIDENCY HAUNTS SECULAR EGYPTIANS, IT IS HIGHLY UNLIKELY IN THE IMMEDIATE POST-MUBARAK PERIOD. UNDER THE CURRENT LEGAL FRAMEWORK, THE MB HAS NO ABILITY TO PUT FORWARD A PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE IN THE EVENT OF AN ELECTION.

THE ORGANIZATION DOES NOT APPEAR TO HAVE THE ORGANIZED MILITARY WING NECESSARY SHOULD IT WISH TO ATTEMPT TO SEIZE THE PRESIDENCY BY FORCE. CONSTANT OVERSIGHT OF THE ARMED FORCES AIMED AT ROOTING OUT POTENTIAL ISLAMIST SYMPATHIZERS MEANS THAT FEW LIKELY REMAIN, ALTHOUGH THE POSSIBILITY DOES EXIST THAT SOME CLOSE-MOUTHED MB-LEANING OFFICERS ARE PRESENT.

OVERALL, IN THE VIEW OF MOST EGYPTIAN ANALYSTS, THE GROUP’S APPROACH SEEMS TO BE ONE OF PATIENCE AND GRASS ROOTS BUILDING OF SUPPORT, WAITING FOR THE DAY WHEN IT MIGHT COME TO POWER THROUGH POPULAR ELECTION, OR BY POPULAR DEMAND AFTER A GAMAL PRESIDENCY HAS FOUNDERED.

via the NYT The Lede

162 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:41:03pm

re: #158 brookly red

Oh for Pete's sake! I suggested the Muslim Brotherhood was not going to change... and you read what you wanted to read into it. WTF were you thinking?

Let it fucking be.
I'm in a piss poor mood and don't feel like dealing with dolts who expect courtesies extended to them that they have no intention of reciprocating.

I'll BBL. . . .

163 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:41:31pm

re: #159 Venezuela lover

Egyptians will be going down the Nile without a paddle if the Muslim Brotherhood takes power. The MB is a hate organization, not democracy proponents, not human rights advocates, not economic development experts. Leaders that hate teach hate.

One MB war with Israel and the Egyptians will be wishing Mubarak was still in charge.

I still think we need to bring in North Korean peace-keepers & please note the lack of a sarc tag.

164 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:42:14pm

re: #162 reine.de.tout

Let it fucking be.
I'm in a piss poor mood and don't feel like dealing with dolts who expect courtesies extended to them that they have no intention of reciprocating.

I'll BBL. . . .

welcome to my life...

165 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:42:20pm

Protesters give army deadline to choose sides

Tahrir Square protesters say they plan to march Friday to the presidential palace in Heliopolis unless the army makes its stance clear. Youth-led groups issued a statement calling for all Egyptians to march on the palace, the People’s Assembly and the television building, in what they are calling the “Friday of Departure.”

They say the army must choose which side they are on: That of the people, or the regime.

“We the people and the youth of Egypt demand that our brothers in the national armed forces clearly define their stance by either lining up with the real legitimacy provided by millions of Egyptians on strike on the streets, or standing in the camp of the regime that has killed our people, terrorized them and stole from them,” read the statement.

The protesters say the army has until Thursday morning to make its position clear. A lack of response will be interpreted as support for Egypt’s ruling regime. The march will commence after Friday Muslim prayers and Christian services, according to the statement.

Meanwhile, the liberal Democratic Front Party is expected to release a statement later on Monday calling on the military not to take part in cracking down on protesters.

“We believe that the president is trying to involve the army in a confrontation with the people,” Ibrahim Nawar, official spokesman for the party, told Al-Masry Al-Youm. “In our statement we will remind the army that it is the shield of the people.”

Also via the Lede

166 Ojoe  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:42:56pm

A power vacuum next to the MB.

I feel fine.

/

167 darthstar  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:43:35pm

re: #159 Venezuela lover

Egyptians will be going down the Nile without a paddle if the Muslim Brotherhood takes power. The MB is a hate organization, not democracy proponents, not human rights advocates, not economic development experts. Leaders that hate teach hate.

One MB war with Israel and the Egyptians will be wishing Mubarak was still in charge.

What I said in my #64:

Our job is to simply wring our hands, criticize whatever happens as bad in some way or another, and second guess whatever the President does. (/snark in theory, but not in practice)
168 Political Atheist  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:43:52pm

re: #38 Sionainn
Hello
I put up a page where the judge himself addresses your questions.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

169 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:43:56pm

re: #155 brookly red

yeah whatever...

Fascinating insight.

With your failure to engage, and my need to run some errands - I will BBL.re: #157 reine.de.tout

re: #143 reine.de.tout

Not particularly. Just attacking the idea that being a christian automatically makes one more peaceful.

Which is why I used the term "general".
I don't do any atheist bashing.
And appreciate the similar courtesy.


Frankly, I'd expect/hope to be attacked if I claimed that being atheist makes people more peaceful. It's not about the specific belief system but rather about confronting poor logic. In that vein it make no more sense to claim that being liberal, a chef, or whatever makes you more peaceful. There is no realistic demonstrable cause/effect claim to be made here.

170 darthstar  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:44:20pm

re: #161 000G

Cable: "Presidential succession in Egypt" [Link: wikileaks.ch...]

excerpt:

via the NYT The Lede

All caps...how can you respect any cable that's in all caps?

171 Alexzander  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:44:28pm

re: #165 000G

Wow thats really intense. I think I read that things take off in Cairo at 9am local time tomorrow?

172 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:45:33pm

re: #169 prononymous

Fascinating insight.

With your failure to engage, and my need to run some errands - I will BBL.re: #157 reine.de.tout


Frankly, I'd expect/hope to be attacked if I claimed that being atheist makes people more peaceful. It's not about the specific belief system but rather about confronting poor logic. In that vein it make no more sense to claim that being liberal, a chef, or whatever makes you more peaceful. There is no realistic demonstrable cause/effect claim to be made here.

let's forget you better still... ;)

173 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:47:36pm

re: #172 brookly red

let's forget you better still... ;)

It's true, I'm quite forgettable.

I'll answer your query about what I was thinking later. BBIAB.

174 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:48:21pm
4:04 P.M. |U.S. Wants ‘Free and Fair Elections in September’

Speaking to reporters in Washington on Monday, White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said that the Obama administration would push “strongly” for “free and fair elections in September for the presidency and for the parliament,” of Egypt.

Heh. Now that is calling the shots.

[Link: thelede.blogs.nytimes.com...]

175 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:48:50pm

re: #162 reine.de.tout

He's right, though. Jesus doesn't make anyone peaceful. Some people make take the lessons of Jesus and become peaceful. Lots of Christians, historically and the present day, have no problem reconciling being Christian with being violent.

People are people. No matter what religion, ethos, creed, or what have you they 'follow', they'll be able to justify what they want under it.

176 Mr Pancakes  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:49:15pm

re: #173 prononymous

It's true, I'm quite forgettable.

I'll answer your query about what I was thinking later. BBIAB.

That was your cue to answer back (whispering) "We're not goinna take it"

177 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:50:07pm

re: #174 000G

Heh. Now that is calling the shots.

[Link: thelede.blogs.nytimes.com...]

yeah that is kind a different approach then apologizing for "meddling" ...

178 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:50:51pm

re: #176 Mr Pancakes

That was your cue to answer back (whispering) "We're not goinna take it"

some people don't get it... it's astounding!

179 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:51:05pm

I wonder how the U.S. will react to the pretty-much guaranteed MB plurality (if not majority)? Whatever it is, I hope it's not going to be a flip-flop back to the more pro-US tyranny like after the 2005 elections…

180 Alexzander  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:51:27pm

re: #162 reine.de.tout

...don't feel like dealing with dolts...

I don't like being called a dolt without a response but I'm also happy to just let it go.

181 Ojoe  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:52:00pm

re: #174 000G

People are people. No matter what religion, ethos, creed, or what have you they 'follow', they'll be able to justify what they want under it.

You may derive some statistical results from looking at the contemporary behavior of large samples of the current adherents of various belief systems.

182 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:52:40pm

re: #181 Ojoe

You may derive some statistical results from looking at the contemporary behavior of large samples of the current adherents of various belief systems.

This is how we know to fear the Amish.

183 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:53:48pm

George W. Bush Frets About New 'Nativism'


Evoking the “America first” policies that predated World War II, Bush said he fears that isolationism, nativism, and protectionism are creeping back into American life. “I’m a little concerned that we may be going through the same period,” Bush said at a Southern Methodist University forum recorded January 24.

Bush pushed hard for comprehensive immigration reform in his second term, costing him standing in the Republican Party, where the initiative was assailed as amnesty. In the book he released last year and has been promoting, Decision Points, Bush labeled the failure of his immigration overhaul one of his presidency’s disappointments.

“It’s because people were nervous about a populism that started to emerge,” he said during the C-SPAN question-and-answer. Fielding mostly softball questions from C-SPAN moderator Brian Lamb and a student audience at SMU -- “What was your single most greatest challenge?” -- Bush repeatedly said he was through with the electoral back-and-forth but said he intended to keep a hand in policy


Hot Air commenter....


Bush has a fetish for Mexicans. We’ve all known this for some time.

Mark1971 on January 31, 2011 at 4:49 PM

184 darthstar  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:54:37pm

re: #182 EmmmieG

This is how we know to fear the Amish.

I'd like to send some of those plastic snap-on spinning rims to the Amish for their wagons...I think that would look dope.
/

185 recusancy  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:54:42pm

re: #181 Ojoe

You may derive some statistical results from looking at the contemporary behavior of large samples of the current adherents of various belief systems.

Care to share your statistical results?

186 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:54:55pm

re: #183 Killgore Trout

George W. Bush Frets About New 'Nativism'


Hot Air commenter...

/pssst KT, he isn't the president anymore, check it out.

187 darthstar  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:55:36pm

re: #183 Killgore Trout

George W. Bush Frets About New 'Nativism'


Hot Air commenter...

Well, he was never one for using isolationist rhetoric himself.///

188 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:55:41pm

re: #182 EmmmieG

This is how we know to fear the Amish.

suddenly I crave cheese...

189 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:56:37pm

re: #181 Ojoe

You may derive some statistical results from looking at the contemporary behavior of large samples of the current adherents of various belief systems.

Huh? I didn't say what you quoted there.

190 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:57:24pm
Large sections of Noor appear to be unreachable and this seems to include DSL services in Cairo. #egypt #jan25

Noor is the only ISP that stayed on since the internet shutdown in Egypt, as the Cairo stock exchange works on it.

191 Political Atheist  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:58:02pm

re: #151 Venezuela lover

If the Palestinian leadership put their people first and the rest second or more, the whole thing could have been resolved long ago.

192 Alexzander  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:58:12pm

re: #190 000G

Man you keep posting some interesting info. Thanks.

193 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:58:15pm

re: #183 Killgore Trout

George W. Bush Frets About New 'Nativism'


Hot Air commenter...


Talk about ironic.

194 brookly red  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:58:43pm

re: #178 brookly red

some people don't get it... it's astounding!

I said "it's astounding"! damnit!

195 engineer cat  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:59:11pm

Mubarak Promises More Deck Chair Arrangements Soon

says he hears the people's demands for meaningless changes

Thanks Demonstrators For Their Massive Show Of Support For Repression And Stagnation

196 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 1:59:38pm

re: #175 Obdicut

He's right, though. Jesus doesn't make anyone peaceful. Some people make take the lessons of Jesus and become peaceful. Lots of Christians, historically and the present day, have no problem reconciling being Christian with being violent.

People are people. No matter what religion, ethos, creed, or what have you they 'follow', they'll be able to justify what they want under it.

For God's sake, Obdi, I know that, and I know you know I know that.
It was the general nature of the comments that bothered me.
And then the defense of the general nature of the comments.
Good effin' grief.

198 Alexzander  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:00:15pm

re: #190 000G

Noor is the only ISP that stayed on since the internet shutdown in Egypt, as the Cairo stock exchange works on it.

Just checked who posted that, ioerror, aka major player within Wikileaks. You Heathen!!

199 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:00:34pm

uggh. the wannabe teahadist in our office is crowing about the right managing to get a decision to overturn the Health care legislation and trying to claim that judge shopping and judicial activism aren't in play because the law is unconstitutional anyway.

200 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:01:10pm

re: #139 Charles

Possibly the wackiest wingnut post on Egypt yet: Did Muslim Brotherhood Learn ‘Day of Rage’ Egypt Protest Tactics From Obama Allies Bill Ayers and Code Pink? - Big Government

Good grief.

Because no group of people have ever taken to the streets yelling about the government before Code Pink and Bill Ayers showed them how.

//Wonder where they think the Iranians learned it.

201 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:01:18pm

re: #196 reine.de.tout

For God's sake, Obdi, I know that, and I know you know I know that.
It was the general nature of the comments that bothered me.
And then the defense of the general nature of the comments.
Good effin' grief.

I'm not seeing anything at all general in those comments, though.

202 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:01:32pm

re: #171 Alexzander

Wow thats really intense. I think I read that things take off in Cairo at 9am local time tomorrow?

Watch [Link: twitter.com...]

203 Political Atheist  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:01:40pm

re: #175 Obdicut

I think some people do find peace through religion, some of those became Christians. In any case the post showed a broad brush disdain for Christianity that is an insult to the good people of Christian faith.

204 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:02:22pm

re: #201 Obdicut

I'm not seeing anything at all general in those comments, though.

OK.
I did.

205 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:02:22pm

re: #203 Rightwingconspirator

I think some people do find peace through religion, some of those became Christians. In any case the post showed a broad brush disdain for Christianity that is an insult to the good people of Christian faith.

How?

Where is the disdain?

206 Alexzander  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:04:05pm

re: #200 SanFranciscoZionist

Because no group of people have ever taken to the streets yelling about the government before Code Pink and Bill Ayers showed them how.

//Wonder where they think the Iranians learned it.

To be honest, when I first heard that the Jan 25 events were called "Day of Rage" I also thought of the early Weather Underground attempt to start mass rioting. It used the same name; thankfully the Weather Underground totally overestimated its public support and it was basically a washout- save for a couple damaged cars. Also, the pamphlet that was handed out in Egypt on how to riot against modern police forces clearly shared a lot in common with Western anti-authortity type protest movements. But it could be that this is all just basically obvious and there is no need to see any clear connection to Western examples.

207 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:04:24pm

Why is criticism of religious fervor off limits? I never understood that.

208 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:04:31pm

Broad brush disdain, Obdi:

re: #131 prononymous

Jesus makes people peaceful?

Lol.

re: #135 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

When did that start?

209 Political Atheist  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:04:38pm
re: #143 reine.de.tout

Not particularly. Just attacking the idea that being a christian automatically makes one more peaceful.

Which is why I used the term "general".
I don't do any atheist bashing.
And appreciate the similar courtesy.

Agreed.

210 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:05:24pm

re: #207 Fozzie Bear

Why is criticism of religious fervor off limits? I never understood that.

It's not religious fervor.
It was the broad-brush general criticism.
If you don't see it, fine.
It's what I saw, I'm bored with it now, that's it.

211 McSpiff  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:06:32pm

re: #208 reine.de.tout

I think you're either taking the comment out of context or I'm not understanding something very basic. The MB would be less violent if they prayed to Jesus instead of Allah? Not sure I follow in the least.

212 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:07:21pm

re: #204 reine.de.tout

Frankly, as a Jew, I find that the answer that the only possible good scenario for Israel is the Muslim Brotherhood 'finding Jesus' to be weird as shit.

Coptic Christianity, which is what is practiced in Egypt, is not a hell of a lot more positively-inclined towards Jews than mainstream Islam. In Ethiopia, there's a shitload of hostility towards Jews from Coptic Christians. Egyptian Coptics aren't much friendlier, if at all.

213 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:08:02pm

re: #208 reine.de.tout

But I agree. Jesus doesn't make people peaceful. He sure as shit doesn't make Coptic Christians like Jews.

214 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:08:05pm

Looking for the unicorn here, I indelicately note that Mubarek is 82 years old. It doesn't matter if Obama, Netanyhu and a Yaqui shaman all support him. He's out of power very soon. This process looks more hopeful than a sudden scramble for power over his mummycase.

215 engineer cat  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:08:11pm

Inventor Announces Solution To Palestinian-Israeli Conflict

declare problem easy to resolve with perpetual motion machine using faster-than-light circuits

216 McSpiff  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:08:20pm

re: #212 Obdicut

Frankly, as a Jew, I find that the answer that the only possible good scenario for Israel is the Muslim Brotherhood 'finding Jesus' to be weird as shit.

Coptic Christianity, which is what is practiced in Egypt, is not a hell of a lot more positively-inclined towards Jews than mainstream Islam. In Ethiopia, there's a shitload of hostility towards Jews from Coptic Christians. Egyptian Coptics aren't much friendlier, if at all.

Seriously, there are many reasons for Muslim Extremism but lack of JC in their lives ain't one of them...

217 Political Atheist  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:08:21pm

re: #205 Obdicut

How?

Where is the disdain?

The "LOL"

218 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:08:50pm

re: #12 brookly red

Well for a long time "some people" have been noticing the rise of hard line Islamic types in that region of the world... IIRC they were called neo-cons, pretty much shunned as extremists.

Yes, indeedy.

Those neo-cons sure pegged it; They were certainly prescient in their theory that invading Iraq would lead to a largely ethnically cleansed country strongly allied with Iran, with millions of refugees, and Christians afraid to walk the streets, so that in places like Egypt, Lebanon, and Gaza, the power of Islamists would be dealt a crushing blow by Iraq's shining example.

It's truly stunning how partisan loyalties can lead people to disregard any seblence of rational thought.

219 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:09:26pm

re: #211 McSpiff

I think you're either taking the comment out of context or I'm not understanding something very basic. The MB would be less violent if they prayed to Jesus instead of Allah? Not sure I follow in the least.

I didn't make that comment. Brookly did. I can't interpret Brookly's comment for you but I think he explained it upthread.

"Jesus makes people peaceful? LOL".

Sorry. General, broad-brush statement, unrelated to what that person apparently thought Brookly was trying to say just a general statement.

If you don't see it, so be it.
I did. It bothered me.
Hate me if you will - it bothered me, that's all there is to it.

220 McSpiff  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:09:40pm

re: #217 Rightwingconspirator

The "LOL"

Brookly's statement was laughable at best. Missionaries aren't the solution to the MB (duh).

221 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:10:03pm

re: #217 Rightwingconspirator

I find the idea that Christianity makes people peaceful pretty funny, too. Especially in the context of Coptic Christians.

"Christianity" and "Peaceful" are, historically, not really words that go well together.

222 McSpiff  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:10:23pm

re: #219 reine.de.tout

I didn't make that comment. Brookly did. I can't interpret Brookly's comment for you but I think he explained it upthread.

"Jesus makes people peaceful? LOL".

Sorry. General, broad-brush statement, unrelated to what that person apparently thought Brookly was trying to say just a general statement.

If you don't see it, so be it.
I did. It bothered me.
Hate me if you will - it bothered me, that's all there is to it.

I won't hate you for it, but I think you're attempting to defend a pretty weird patch of ground.

223 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:10:44pm

re: #220 McSpiff

Brookly's statement was laughable at best. Missionaries aren't the solution to the MB (duh).

I'm not fucking defending Brookly's statement!
That you are defending people's disdain for Christianity in general is really getting to me.

224 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:11:23pm

re: #223 reine.de.tout

Do you feel I am showing disdain for Christianity in general if I say that Christianity doesn't make people peaceful?

225 Political Atheist  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:11:30pm

re: #217 Rightwingconspirator

The "LOL"

I say that not as a Christian but as an advocate for a modicum of respect between those who disagree on matters of faith. It's a way to keep the peace.

226 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:11:49pm

From the Reuters article:

Israel shocked by Obama's "betrayal" of Mubarak

The undeniable fact here is that in present reality, it's Mubarak vs. the Egpytian people. I think it's unfair to blame that principle conflict that sparked the revolution on the US or even Obama…

227 McSpiff  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:12:07pm

re: #223 reine.de.tout

I'm not fucking defending Brookly's statement!
That you are defending people's disdain for Christianity in general is really getting to me.

If saying that Christianity and peace aren't intrinsically linked counts as disdain, than you must find the last 2000 years of history pretty hurtful.

228 Alexzander  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:14:42pm

re: #223 reine.de.tout

I'm not fucking defending Brookly's statement!
That you are defending people's disdain for Christianity in general is really getting to me.

If your not defending Brooklin's statement then why did you refer to me as a dolt for questioning it?

229 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:14:48pm

re: #223 reine.de.tout

{{{Reine}}}

230 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:14:49pm

re: #225 Rightwingconspirator

I say that not as a Christian but as an advocate for a modicum of respect between those who disagree on matters of faith. It's a way to keep the peace.

Thank you.
That's all there is to it.

I know my history, much as McSpiff and others want to make it seem otherwise.
And anyone who's been around and paid any damn attention at all will know that I'm one of the first to decry the priestly pedophilia when stories come out. I'm no hypocrite. But I do not care for broad brush insults and what's more, I try very hard not to throw them out. But it seems I'm in a minority . . .

231 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:15:29pm
RT @seanbonner: When govts shut off all comms & kick out press, that is when something they don't want you to see is about to happen. #egypt
232 McSpiff  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:15:38pm

re: #230 reine.de.tout

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

233 Political Atheist  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:16:08pm

re: #221 Obdicut

Thank you for your opinion. At least you had the class to be more specific and less insulting in your choice of words than Prononymous.

234 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:16:15pm

re: #228 Alexzander

If your not defending Brooklin's statement then why did you refer to me as a dolt for questioning it?

You're a "dolt" for not understanding that your comment was very broad, had little to do with Brookly's comment, and was disdainful in general of Christians, not specific incidents or time periods.

And for thinking all of those things are one and the same and so the broad brush is perfectly acceptable to use.

235 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:16:37pm

re: #230 reine.de.tout

I have no desire to insult you, but I'm not ever going to agree that Christianity makes people peaceful.

I'm also never going to see the comment that if the Muslims just converted to Christianity it'd be better for the Jews as having any sense to it whatsoever.

236 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:16:39pm

re: #230 reine.de.tout

Thank you.
That's all there is to it.

I know my history, much as McSpiff and others want to make it seem otherwise.
And anyone who's been around and paid any damn attention at all will know that I'm one of the first to decry the priestly pedophilia when stories come out. I'm no hypocrite. But I do not care for broad brush insults and what's more, I try very hard not to throw them out. But it seems I'm in a minority . . .

In some parts you've been criticized as insufficiently revanchist.

237 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:16:42pm

re: #232 McSpiff

Gee, thanks McSpiff.
You just made my day.

238 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:17:29pm

re: #236 Decatur Deb

In some parts you've been criticized as insufficiently revanchist.

Yes.

239 McSpiff  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:17:46pm

re: #237 reine.de.tout

Gee, thanks McSpiff.
You just made my day.

Most polite response I could come up with. Someone's painting with a broadbrush and it might not be who you think...

240 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:17:58pm

re: #233 Rightwingconspirator

Thank you for your opinion. At least you had the class to be more specific and less insulting in your choice of words than Prononymous.

I don't think that Prononymous was intending any sort of insult in the least. Christianity doesn't make people peaceful. Human nature, history, and the present day all show that perfectly well.

I'm really, really mystified as to why anyone would feel it was an attack on Christianity. Christianity can be all that and the cook's cat, but humans are still humans.

241 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:19:19pm

re: #239 McSpiff

Most polite response I could come up with. Someone's painting with a broadbrush and it might not be who you think...

And someone is watching with blinders on . ..

242 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:19:50pm

Interview with Sandmonkey by the Sudanesethinker: [Link: www.sudanesethinker.com...]

243 McSpiff  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:20:06pm

The fact that a comment suggesting Muslims simply need Christianity in their lives isn't troublesome, but suggesting that Christians are not universally peaceful is deeply bigoted and hurtful to some here is rather insightful.

244 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:20:09pm

re: #240 Obdicut

I don't think that Prononymous was intending any sort of insult in the least. Christianity doesn't make people peaceful. Human nature, history, and the present day all show that perfectly well.

I'm really, really mystified as to why anyone would feel it was an attack on Christianity. Christianity can be all that and the cook's cat, but humans are still humans.

You can be mystified all you want, Obdicut.
The bottom line is that that's how I read it, as it was happening.

245 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:20:36pm

re: #243 McSpiff

The fact that a comment suggesting Muslims simply need Christianity in their lives isn't troublesome, but suggesting that Christians are not universally peaceful is deeply bigoted and hurtful to some here is rather insightful.

I know this.
YOu need to pay attention.

246 McSpiff  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:20:50pm

re: #241 reine.de.tout

And someone is watching with blinders on . ..

I completely agree.

247 Alexzander  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:21:07pm

re: #234 reine.de.tout

You're a "dolt" for not understanding that your comment was very broad, had little to do with Brookly's comment, and was disdainful in general of Christians, not specific incidents or time periods.

And for thinking all of those things are one and the same and so the broad brush is perfectly acceptable to use.

Here were my responses to Brooklin's comment suggesting the MB need to find JC for a positive outcome in Egypt:

#74

ahhh...?

#138

Yeah I'm a bit blown away by that answer too.

Those two statements reveal that I have disdain for all Christians?

248 albusteve  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:21:36pm

what a stupid thing to argue about...if Reine feels a certain way, so be it...let it go, but no...you gotta drive it into the ground...sometimes goodwill is more valuable than your damned ego

249 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:21:36pm

re: #244 reine.de.tout

But why did you read it that way?

Again: Do you feel I am showing disdain for Christianity in general if I say that Christianity doesn't make people peaceful?

I'm not trying to badger you, and if you'd rather drop it, that's fine, but I respect the hell out of you so I'm trying to understand what your point of view is.

Because, if I'm not mistaken, my view that Christianity doesn't make people peaceful is insulting to you.

250 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:22:51pm

re: #249 Obdicut

But why did you read it that way?

Again: Do you feel I am showing disdain for Christianity in general if I say that Christianity doesn't make people peaceful?

I'm not trying to badger you, and if you'd rather drop it, that's fine, but I respect the hell out of you so I'm trying to understand what your point of view is.

Because, if I'm not mistaken, my view that Christianity doesn't make people peaceful is insulting to you.

I don't know why I read it that way, I just did.

And I asked a question - and the answers were not, oh, gee, no, we didn't intend for it to be a broad-brush disdain.

The answers were - but you're an idiot if you don't see that Christianity is not inherently peaceful.

And so I took it from there.

251 Winny Spencer  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:22:54pm

re: #235 Obdicut

I have no desire to insult you, but I'm not ever going to agree that Christianity makes people peaceful.

I'm also never going to see the comment that if the Muslims just converted to Christianity it'd be better for the Jews as having any sense to it whatsoever.

Not even in a strictly contemporary context?

252 McSpiff  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:23:10pm

re: #245 reine.de.tout

I know this.
YOu need to pay attention.

I have been. I'll leave it at that.

253 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:23:44pm

re: #251 Winny Spencer

Not even in a strictly contemporary context?

Did you read my above comments?

Coptic Christians are really not very friendly towards Jews.

255 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:23:58pm

re: #250 reine.de.tout

I don't know why I read it that way, I just did.

And I asked a question - and the answers were not, oh, gee, no, we didn't intend for it to be a broad-brush disdain.

The answers were - but you're an idiot if you don't see that Christianity is not inherently peaceful.

And so I took it from there.

The answers were, AND CONTINUE TO BE - you're an idiot if you think Christianity is ever peaceful.
sheesh.

256 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:24:37pm

re: #250 reine.de.tout

And I asked a question - and the answers were not, oh, gee, no, we didn't intend for it to be a broad-brush disdain.

Actually, they were. That's what Prononymous answered.


The answers were - but you're an idiot if you don't see that Christianity is not inherently peaceful.

Who said that, or anything close to that?

257 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:25:20pm

re: #255 reine.de.tout

The answers were, AND CONTINUE TO BE - you're an idiot if you think Christianity is ever peaceful.
sheesh.

Nobody, at all, has said this. Nobody.

258 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:25:47pm

re: #249 Obdicut

But why did you read it that way?

Again: Do you feel I am showing disdain for Christianity in general if I say that Christianity doesn't make people peaceful?

I'm not trying to badger you, and if you'd rather drop it, that's fine, but I respect the hell out of you so I'm trying to understand what your point of view is.

Because, if I'm not mistaken, my view that Christianity doesn't make people peaceful is insulting to you.

No, your view is not insulting, it is very very correct. Christianity does not necessarily make people peaceful.

But not all Christians are automatically that way.

"Jesus makes people peaceful? LOL".
General disdain of a group as a whole.
Not a specific group, not a specific time period.
It is what it is.

259 Winny Spencer  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:26:40pm

re: #253 Obdicut

Did you read my above comments?

Coptic Christians are really not very friendly towards Jews.

A "no", then.

260 McSpiff  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:26:49pm

re: #255 reine.de.tout

The answers were, AND CONTINUE TO BE - you're an idiot if you think Christianity is ever peaceful.
sheesh.

No one has said that.

If you think saying "not all Christians are peaceful" means the same thing as "no Christians are peaceful" you've missed the entire point.

261 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:26:58pm

re: #258 reine.de.tout

What is the difference between that statement and mine?

Why are you now saying that what is being said is

you're an idiot if you think Christianity is ever peaceful.

How did the 'ever' get in there?

262 Alexzander  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:27:36pm

re: #248 albusteve

what a stupid thing to argue about...if Reine feels a certain way, so be it...let it go, but no...you gotta drive it into the ground...sometimes goodwill is more valuable than your damned ego

Well he did accuse me of being a 'dolt' and of being a bigot with respect to Christianity. I even said I was willing to let it go several times. Seriously who gives a shit. I'd rather be discussing the historic matters in Egypt.

263 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:28:01pm

re: #257 Obdicut

Nobody, at all, has said this. Nobody.

No, they haven't. I'm way out of sorts on this right now, and need to move upstairs or something.

All I expect is what RWC said - a modicum of respect. The same respect that I try very very hard to extend to others, and don't say that I don't do that, because I do. And it was not there. It truly was not.

264 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:28:11pm

re: #259 Winny Spencer

A "no", then.

No. I mean, if they all converted to Quakerism, then that'd be better for Israel. If they all converted to Reform Judaism, it'd be better to. If they just 'find Jesus', the most likely thing for them to be in the context of Egypt is Coptic Christians, who are really not much friendlier to Jews and Israel than Muslims are.

265 McSpiff  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:28:22pm

re: #258 reine.de.tout

No, your view is not insulting, it is very very correct. Christianity does not necessarily make people peaceful.

But not all Christians are automatically that way.

"Jesus makes people peaceful? LOL".
General disdain of a group as a whole.
Not a specific group, not a specific time period.
It is what it is.

Its only broadbrush if you take 'people' in that sentence to mean "all christians" as opposed to "any random person". Since we're talking about brookly's comment about the MB, the first meaning makes absolutely no sense.

266 darthstar  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:28:40pm

Maybe Christians need to convert to Islam (Imam Huckabee, anyone?)...Muslims could convert to Judaism, Jews to Rastafarianism, Rastafarians to Hindu, Hindus to Christianity, and then we could all get together and reevaluate the seating charts.

Personally, I think Imam Huckabee would be a riot.

267 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:29:01pm

re: #260 McSpiff

No one has said that.

If you think saying "not all Christians are peaceful" means the same thing as "no Christians are peaceful" you've missed the entire point.

AND if you think "Jesus makes people peaceful? LOL" is not broadbrush, you're missing the point.

268 albusteve  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:29:03pm

re: #262 Alexzander

Well he did accuse me of being a 'dolt' and of being a bigot with respect to Christianity. I even said I was willing to let it go several times. Seriously who gives a shit. I'd rather be discussing the historic matters in Egypt.

he is a she...and doesn't deserve some dogpile, regardless of what she posted

269 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:29:15pm

re: #266 darthstar

Maybe Christians need to convert to Islam (Imam Huckabee, anyone?)...Muslims could convert to Judaism, Jews to Rastafarianism, Rastafarians to Hindu, Hindus to Christianity, and then we could all get together and reevaluate the seating charts.

Personally, I think Imam Huckabee would be a riot.

There ya go.
I'm on my way now.

270 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:29:40pm

re: #262 Alexzander

Well he did accuse me of being a 'dolt' and of being a bigot with respect to Christianity. I even said I was willing to let it go several times. Seriously who gives a shit. I'd rather be discussing the historic matters in Egypt.

Then go do it.

271 Obdicut  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:29:45pm

re: #263 reine.de.tout

I'm sorry, but I feel that you're mistaking the casual language of 'LOL' for a contempt that doesn't seem to be present at all, especially when Prononymous clarified that they'd be just as dismissive of the idea that atheism led to peacefulness.

272 McSpiff  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:30:00pm

re: #267 reine.de.tout

AND if you think "Jesus makes people peaceful? LOL" is not broadbrush, you're missing the point.

The only one you can possibly make that a broadbrush is to assume that 'people' means 'all christians'. Which would be a stretch to say the least.

273 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:31:16pm

re: #272 McSpiff

The only one you can possibly make that a broadbrush is to assume that 'people' means 'all christians'. Which would be a stretch to say the least.


peo·ple   
[pee-puhl] Show IPA
noun, plural -ples for 4, verb, -pled, -pling.
–noun
1.
persons indefinitely or collectively; persons in general: to find it easy to talk to people; what will people think?

275 McSpiff  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:31:55pm

re: #273 reine.de.tout

peo·ple   
[pee-puhl] Show IPA
noun, plural -ples for 4, verb, -pled, -pling.
–noun
1.
persons indefinitely or collectively; persons in general: to find it easy to talk to people; what will people think?

Exactly. I didn't read the word Christian once in your definition.

276 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:32:08pm

re: #268 albusteve

he is a she...and doesn't deserve some dogpile, regardless of what she posted

Thanks, Steve.
I'm moving upthread.
I've been called much worse than "dolt".
It ain't a big deal; I will have forgotten who and what by tomorrow.

277 McSpiff  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:32:50pm

re: #276 reine.de.tout

Beats feeling embarrassed I guess.

278 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:33:52pm

re: #276 reine.de.tout

Thanks, Steve.
I'm moving upthread.
I've been called much worse than "dolt".
It ain't a big deal; I will have forgotten who and what by tomorrow.

"That's very Christian of you."
(Come on up, we're discussing idiot federal judges.)

279 Alexzander  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:34:45pm

re: #268 albusteve

he is a she...and doesn't deserve some dogpile, regardless of what she posted

I apologize for the gender assumption. I wasn't trying to dogpile, just defend myself from what I perceived to be a mistaken charge.

280 albusteve  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:34:49pm

re: #277 McSpiff

Beats feeling embarrassed I guess.

you can go back to your tinker toys now

281 albusteve  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:35:24pm

re: #279 Alexzander

I apologize for the gender assumption. I wasn't trying to dogpile, just defend myself from what I perceived to be a mistaken charge.

sometimes it's not worth it

282 darthstar  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:35:43pm

It appears our mini holy war is coming to an end. Peace.

283 alteedag  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:37:46pm

israel should reoccupy sinai - and afterward, offer it, combined with gaza, as the palestinian state. territorial continuity.

why hasn't a flotilla been dispatched to suez as a warning to whatever government emerges regarding the neutrality of the canal zone?

284 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:41:03pm
graphs on [Link: stat.ripe.net...] confirm that about half of the remaining egyptian prefixes got withdrawn around 21:00 UTC.
285 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:42:02pm

From the Q & A with Prof. Barry Rubin:

What kind of threat does the Muslim Brotherhood network pose to Israel and the Western democracies?

In power? A huge threat: renewed warfare, overwhelming anti-Americanism, efforts to spread revolution to other moderate states, a potential alignment with Iran and Syria (though that might not happen), incredible damage to Western interests. In short, a real disaster. What shocks me is that Western media and experts seem so carried away by this movement they are only considering a best-case outcome. As I suggested, I would prefer things were otherwise but I am deeply worried and one of the things I'm worried about is that others don't seem to be worried.

286 wrenchwench  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:47:08pm

re: #283 alteedag

israel should reoccupy sinai - and afterward, offer it, combined with gaza, as the palestinian state. territorial continuity.

why hasn't a flotilla been dispatched to suez as a warning to whatever government emerges regarding the neutrality of the canal zone?

Greetings, hatchling. I found this information:

So far Egypt’s Suez Canal is operating normally. There has been no threat of closure, and there probably won’t be. Why? Because if the Suez were to be blocked the U.S. would have no choice but to step right into the mud of Egyptian politics to pry it open again, and exact retribution on the perpetrators....

There's additional relevant info in the article.

287 lostlakehiker  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:47:26pm

re: #283 alteedag

israel should reoccupy sinai - and afterward, offer it, combined with gaza, as the palestinian state. territorial continuity.

why hasn't a flotilla been dispatched to suez as a warning to whatever government emerges regarding the neutrality of the canal zone?

Israel can't simply "reoccupy Sinai". That would mean war. The Egyptian Army isn't in any state of muddle.

No Palestinian State would be permitted by Egypt to own Sinai. Egypt will not cede Sinai.

No flotilla can open the canal. That would take an army, and a big one.

We don't have that kind of force handy. We could muster it, calling up national guard divisions and shifting other forces about, but it would be utter folly. There's not much we can do about the situation in Egypt. Any forcible intervention would be sure to backfire. Vehement intervention by words, words not backed by a big stick, would cost us a precious reputation for being worth listening to and taking seriously. Best to just stand aside and say that we are the friend and well-wisher of liberty everywhere, in Washington's words, but this isn't our fight and good luck.

288 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:47:56pm

re: #285 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey

Rubin's quality of analyis often leaves a lot to be desired:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

289 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:51:14pm
@alaa this is very cool of Google -- Egyptians can tweet by leaving a voicemail, no Internet required: [Link: is.gd...] #egypt #jan25

[Link: twitter.com...]

290 lostlakehiker  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 2:54:04pm

re: #21 EmmmieG

The fat lady is yet silent.

That would be the Supreme Court, right? But it would be a big stretch to rule that the federal government can simply up and order people to buy things. If the purchase of health insurance may lawfully be made compulsory, why not require everyone to buy, say, straw hats? They ward off the sun, thereby preventing skin cancer.

Or gym memberships?

Or subscriptions to the New York Times? It gives good information on upcoming elections, which, if not acted on, might lead to the repeal of socially vital health care legislation, legislation which for the good of the nation must stand whether the voters like it or not.

In short, if this law stands, the government can pretty much tell anybody to do anything any time it pleases, and it doesn't need any more justification than because it says so, provided it says so with a wink and a nod to the commerce clause.

291 alteedag  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 3:07:12pm

re: #287 lostlakehiker

the canal, after all is a canal. a flotilla can send a strong message - we don't need to send the marines back for the barbary pirates yet. at least until they make their intentions clear.

as far as occupying sinai... there are only 800 egyptian soldiers in sinai along with whatever police forces, armed Bedouin tribes, and iranian arms smugglers, can be mustered into defending the desert. after that, it's separated from the rest of egypt by the canal - and the border with egypt would actually be much smaller. and the israelis can be fully responsible for controlling arms smuggling to gaza.

292 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 3:09:59pm

re: #223 reine.de.tout

I'm not fucking defending Brookly's statement!
That you are defending people's disdain for Christianity in general is really getting to me.

But Reine, mocking the statement that Jesus makes people peaceful (not that anyone made it literally, but whatever) is not a description, so it can't be a general, broad-brush statement or a show of disdain. It's just a mocking of an statement that the person doesn't find true. The person doesn't say that Jesus makes people jerks. Nor does the person say that most Christians are jerks. Maybe the person doesn't think Jesus has any influence at all (the real influence coming from culture, etc.). I honestly fail to see the problem with the statement.

293 jordash1212  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 3:12:59pm

Why didn't you quote the whole MB blurb about Israel?

What if Israel were to completely withdraw from the West Bank, a Palestinian state were established, and Jerusalem became a shared capitol. Then would you recognize Israel?

The political view of the Muslim Brotherhood on Palestine is one state [for] Jews, Muslims, Christians — let's have a democratic election and we will see….We can make something like a secular state and have elections and we can see.

294 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 3:13:24pm

re: #250 reine.de.tout

I don't know why I read it that way, I just did.

OK, disregard my comment above, I see that it's already settled. Peace.

295 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 3:17:49pm

re: #293 jordash1212

Why didn't you quote the whole MB blurb about Israel?

Does it really change anything? I don't think one state solution is workable in any way.

296 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 3:18:51pm

re: #176 Mr Pancakes

That was your cue to answer back (whispering) "We're not goinna take it"


Sorry, I'll probably miss ~80% of the pop culture references.

re: #181 Ojoe

You may derive some statistical results from looking at the contemporary behavior of large samples of the current adherents of various belief systems.


I agree. But, as I said before, I doubt that you could link that statistical correlation to a cause/effect relationship or make a very convincing argument that there is one.

re: #194 brookly red

I said "it's astounding"! damnit!


I have plenty to say about your #12 but since this thread is about dead and you never fully engage in discussion I'll just sum up my thoughts:
a) Neoconservatives are/were not shunned as extremists.
b) They were not the only ones noticing the rise of regimes/dictatorships/islamists in the middle east.

re: #212 Obdicut

Yes, this is roughly what I was going for.

re: #250 reine.de.tout

I don't know why I read it that way, I just did.

And I asked a question - and the answers were not, oh, gee, no, we didn't intend for it to be a broad-brush disdain.

The answers were - but you're an idiot if you don't see that Christianity is not inherently peaceful.

And so I took it from there.


I'm sorry if you interpreted it that way, it was not my intent. I read the comment about MB becoming more peaceful if they found Jesus and literally laughed out loud. My response was to that. It was never meant to be extrapolated to Christians in general.

re: #255 reine.de.tout

The answers were, AND CONTINUE TO BE - you're an idiot if you think Christianity is ever peaceful.
sheesh.


That's not what I am saying at all. It is nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with humanity. I feel that as humans we have never been, and probably never will be, peaceful. If we are satiated and content enough that we don't have to go out and do real violence to each other, we do it vicariously through our entertainment. I don't think people are made peaceful by a particular belief system, but rather peaceful people are attracted to peaceful belief systems.

297 jordash1212  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 3:21:00pm

re: #295 Sergey Romanov

You might be right about the one state solution, but that last response was certainly a more moderate view than the others, and certainly more moderate than Hamas.

298 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 3:23:38pm

re: #297 jordash1212

You might be right about the one state solution, but that last response was certainly a more moderate view than the others, and certainly more moderate than Hamas.

It's a bit like counting the angels on a head of a pin. One less or more doesn't make a difference. In practice Israel will not agree to 1-ss just like it won't agree to resettle to the sea. So from a practical standpoint there is no diff.

299 jordash1212  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 3:26:43pm

re: #298 Sergey Romanov

Well if you're only counting the responses about Israel, then yes it's moot. However, there's a lot in the interview that leads me to contradictory conclusions about their politics and religious zeal.

300 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 3:29:17pm

re: #299 jordash1212

Well, there's the rub. When he says the radical things like quoted above, there's no reason not to believe him. Straight from the horse's mouth. On the other hand, moderate things he says may be sincere or may be a ruse, so they're harder to rely on.

301 wrenchwench  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 3:35:03pm

re: #299 jordash1212

Well if you're only counting the responses about Israel, then yes it's moot. However, there's a lot in the interview that leads me to contradictory conclusions about their politics and religious zeal.

You say "contradictory conclusions", but many posts of yours I've seen lately are defensive of the Muslim Brotherhood. Are you convinced they are they way forward?

302 jordash1212  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 3:35:10pm

re: #300 Sergey Romanov

And we heard from Obama all sorts of promises of liberal paradise, but he became much more centrist when he was elected. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that MB will compromise rather than back an ideology as ruthlessly as Mubarak. They know what the stakes are for Egyptians, and it's not like the MB will be the sole authority in a new government.

303 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 3:38:58pm

re: #302 jordash1212

That we will see, but that's not the point. You asked why the part of the interview was not quoted. I think moderate positions in interviews by orgs like MB are not necessarily reliable. I'm not discussing what happens next, try KT :)

304 jordash1212  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 3:40:13pm

re: #301 wrenchwench

I said this a while back that it's folly for any Egyptian opposition not to involve an Islamic entity. This is because so much of Egypt, unlike the secular youth who initiated the protests, are devote Muslims who will not recognize a new government unless it is justified under Islamic law. If it is not recognized by a majority of the people, it will become another dictatorship. That said, I would prefer to involve another Islamic group without the shaky and violent roots as the MB, but they are well established and have the attention of many Egyptians.

305 wrenchwench  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 3:44:06pm

re: #304 jordash1212

I said this a while back that it's folly for any Egyptian opposition not to involve an Islamic entity. This is because so much of Egypt, unlike the secular youth who initiated the protests, are devote Muslims who will not recognize a new government unless it is justified under Islamic law. If it is not recognized by a majority of the people, it will become another dictatorship. That said, I would prefer to involve another Islamic group without the shaky and violent roots as the MB, but they are well established and have the attention of many Egyptians.

I'd say "Islamic" is unavoidable. My (tiny, fleeting) hope is that "Islamist" is avoidable.

I sure didn't like this part of the interview:

Should women be forced to wear the hijab, as they are in Iran?

No, they must choose. They should not be forced to wear hijab. We would never push the people to do something they don’t want to. But if a woman does not wish to wear hijab, there would be law to wear something respectable — not like a prostitute. Women must choose their way of Islam.

If the Brotherhood were in power in Egypt, what would be the rights of women to participate in politics? Could a woman serve in Parliament, or as President?

We believe in the complete participation of women in political life — except the presidency.

306 jordash1212  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 3:44:53pm

re: #303 Sergey Romanov

Here's what I was getting at. Charles quoted the most damning part of that interview and didn't mention the other efforts by Hamza to appear moderate and compromising. And not just the blurb about Israel, but the whole rest of the interview. Say what you want about the validity of those statements. I hope most people here went on to read the whole interview, but it's quite easy to pick and choose what you want to know about a certain group based on preexisting beliefs. Quoting a selected segment of the interview does not help the cause to make fair judgements.

307 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 3:45:04pm

If Egypt ends up with a parliamentary system, they will have some MB in government. As a practical matter, you can't exclude them if there is to be a democratic process.

308 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 3:46:34pm

re: #307 Fozzie Bear

If Egypt ends up with a parliamentary system, they will have some MB in government. As a practical matter, you can't exclude them if there is to be a democratic process.

The question will be whether the MB, once in power, will exclude anybody from power, based on religious grounds, and thus destroy the democratic process.

Establishment Clause. I hope the Egyptians will get it.

309 jordash1212  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 3:47:38pm

re: #308 000G

Hamza says very explicitly in the interview how he feels about democracy.

310 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 3:48:36pm

re: #306 jordash1212

I understand your point. I just think that the position I outlined is also legitimate and can be used by default. Namely, if he wants to appear moderate but still strictly rejects Israel as-is, what is there to say? This is more damning, actually.

311 jordash1212  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 3:58:35pm

re: #310 Sergey Romanov

I don't think it's appropriate to assume the worst about the MB when there are a dozen statements much more moderate than what he said about not recognizing Israel. It's illogical and unfair to attach more significance to one statement than to another or a dozen others for that matter.

312 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 4:01:00pm

re: #311 jordash1212

Can you please elaborate on why it is illogical? They have incentive to make moderate statements. When even with such an incentive they can't stop saying stuff like the quoted one, this is absolutely significant.

313 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 4:01:27pm

re: #311 jordash1212

I don't think it's appropriate to assume the worst about the MB when there are a dozen statements much more moderate than what he said about not recognizing Israel. It's illogical and unfair to attach more significance to one statement than to another or a dozen others for that matter.

With some statements in a big sea of otherwise fluffy statements, it's just like having a nice bowl of punch with lots of fruits and yummy stuff in it… and then someone takes a dump in it. Contamination is not an unfair concept.

314 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 4:03:37pm

re: #313 000G

With some statements in a big sea of otherwise fluffy statements, it's just like having a nice bowl of punch with lots of fruits and yummy stuff in it… and then someone takes a dump in it. Contamination is not an unfair concept.

Kind of like the honey math: 1 kg of honey + 1 kg of shit = 2 kg of shit.

315 jordash1212  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 4:06:57pm

re: #312 Sergey Romanov

re: #313 000G

Doesn't he have an incentive to tell the truth too? They have an incentive to appear moderate and to be moderate. I don't like the fact that they don't accept Israel as-is, but the rest of Hamza's statements proves that the MB as an organization is reasonable and compromising.

316 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 4:08:37pm

re: #315 jordash1212

That's the problem, his moderate words "prove" nothing. And we'll watch in real time how it will really turn out. I can only hope they will be moderate.

317 jordash1212  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 4:11:05pm

re: #316 Sergey Romanov

But his "immoderate" words don't prove anything either. You say you don't want to enter Apolo's sanctuary, but yet you assume that the MB will act as extreme as its most extreme statement.

318 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 4:14:51pm

re: #317 jordash1212

They prove that Israel's concern is legitimate. Which is exactly what Charles wrote.

319 Political Atheist  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 4:28:00pm

re: #296 prononymous

Good to see that. Thank you.

320 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 4:53:42pm

re: #296 prononymous

Ah. Thank you for the clarification.
And many apologies for the "dolt" comment.
I was out of sorts, no excuse, but it's not something I generally do, and I apologize.

321 Flavia  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 7:30:49pm

re: #5 JohnCarroll

What a short-sighted mistake it is proving to be for Israel not to have been more flexible in negotiations with the Palestinians. They can't have thought that peace with Egypt was stable, long-term, under Mubarak.

Just how more flexible were they supposed to be??? They've signaled for YEARS that they would even give the terrorists part of their capital city (for just one egregious example) & they were still refused!! The only intransigence has been on the side of the "Palestinians"!

322 Flavia  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 7:44:39pm

re: #36 harrylook

Like I said, Mubarak means peace for Israel. Mubarak keeps the bad guys from getting weapons to Hamas in Gaza, e.g. What is going to happen now? If I lived in Israel, I'd be worried. I'd be asking Obama, "What are you going to do to help us out?"

Just had a horrible thought. I bet he's not getting involved just to put even more pressure on the Israelis to give up Jerusalem (or whatever else the "Palestinians" have decided to demand).

323 Flavia  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 7:55:16pm

re: #158 brookly red

Oh for Pete's sake! I suggested the Muslim Brotherhood was not going to change... and you read what you wanted to read into it. WTF were you thinking?

Thanks for the sanity check. I've had that done to me to the point where I had to wonder if I had had a momentary blackout & posted something from another dimension....

324 KindaDifferent  Mon, Jan 31, 2011 9:25:13pm

re: #27 Alouette

Thanks for this link. Had a guy come into our store raving about Al Jazeera and the Guardian's reporting of the Palestine Papers and how we in Canada need Al Jazeera...Ugh!


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