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1 Fart Knocker  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 12:52:23pm

I wonder what the folks in Iran and Saudi Arabia are thinking right now?!

2 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 12:53:55pm

re: #1 rwdflynavy

I wonder what the folks in Iran and Saudi Arabia are thinking right now?!

Minds are racing, I'll bet.

3 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 12:56:06pm

God, those Code Pink trollops are really working overtime...must be really cranked up on cheap meth.

/

4 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 12:56:37pm

"May you live in interesting times."

[a pseudo-Chinese pseudo-curse]

5 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 12:58:50pm

re: #1 rwdflynavy

I'm thinking that the members of the opposition in Iran are probably thinking that they: (1) missed a huge opportunity last year; (2) trying to figure out how to kickstart the opposition after the Basij and IRGC managed to thoroughly and effectively thrash the opposition with force.

The mullahs and Ahmadinejad are probably breathing a sigh of relief, knowing that they dealt with the opposition protests last year, and that their methods worked to crush the opposition then, and that they'd be likely to work again this time around.

6 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 12:59:58pm

It's a full-on four-alarm forest fire now, baby. The radical dictatorships of the post-WWII era are feeling the heat.

7 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:00:09pm

An amazing, and I hope, a good time.

Not to be a downer, but I was thinking of the Separatists and the Puritans, who were really insistent on their own rights of free expression, but weren't much on rights for others.

8 Alexzander  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:01:00pm

I still feel horribly sad for the moderates in Iran who tried to topple their government and are now stuck facing the same government for the rest of their lives. I hope this might spark a new (successful) wave there.

10 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:03:04pm

re: #6 thedopefishlives

It's a full-on four-alarm forest fire now, baby. The radical dictatorships of the post-WWII era are feeling the heat.

This really is the "other shoe" of WWII.

11 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:03:28pm

re: #7 EmmmieG

An amazing, and I hope, a good time.

Not to be a downer, but I was thinking of the Separatists and the Puritans, who were really insistent on their own rights of free expression, but weren't much on rights for others.

You and me both. I have this sour feeling in the pit of my stomach that so much of this unrest is groups like the Muslim Brotherhood and other "moderate" groups pushing to put themselves in seats of power.

12 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:05:17pm

I assume everybody has seen this one already...
ABC News Reporter Brian Hartman Threatened With Beheading
Wow.

13 Tigger2  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:07:31pm

I'm going to make a donation to that shadow group Acorn, they're doing some good work.
/

14 justaminute  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:08:44pm

re: #5 lawhawk

I'm thinking that the members of the opposition in Iran are probably thinking that they: (1) missed a huge opportunity last year; (2) trying to figure out how to kickstart the opposition after the Basij and IRGC managed to thoroughly and effectively thrash the opposition with force.

The mullahs and Ahmadinejad are probably breathing a sigh of relief, knowing that they dealt with the opposition protests last year, and that their methods worked to crush the opposition then, and that they'd be likely to work again this time around.

Especially when the Government executed last week the protesters they have been holding in prison. The Green movement has been pretty much been beaten down, sorry to say.

15 dragonfire1981  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:10:04pm

"An amazing moment in history."

Well said Charles, but just for fun let me run that through my English to wingnut translator:
"It's the end of the world!! Muslims are taking over! Buy all the guns and gold you can and accept Jesus before it's too late!"

16 mr.fusion  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:11:34pm

re: #8 Alexzander

I still feel horribly sad for the moderates in Iran who tried to topple their government and are now stuck facing the same government for the rest of their lives. I hope this might spark a new (successful) wave there.

Not so fast my friend.....the Iranian Revolution took a decade.

I don't think it's all that likely....but would anybody be shocked if Iran was the next domino to fall?

17 Alexzander  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:13:02pm

re: #16 mr.fusion

Not so fast my friend...the Iranian Revolution took a decade.

I don't think it's all that likely...but would anybody be shocked if Iran was the next domino to fall?

I would be shocked. An Iranian friend of mine told me that there was massive demoralization amongst the youth and moderates after the last uprising failed to bring about change.

18 Jadespring  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:13:10pm

re: #12 Killgore Trout

I assume everybody has seen this one already...
ABC News Reporter Brian Hartman Threatened With Beheading
Wow.

Apparently a CBS reporter and her group were marched back to their hotel at gun point.

19 SpaceJesus  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:13:52pm

fun fact: yemen's capital went from 50k in 1970s to 1.5 million today. how the hell does job growth keep up with that?

20 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:14:19pm

re: #9 Alexzander

He's willing to step down, but worries about chaos. Right.

He could have prevented the chaos and bloodshed had he called for new elections in x weeks and that the prime minister would lead a caretaker government until the elections were carried out. There was any number of options he could have taken if he was willing to step down, but it was his refusal to do so that led to the bloodshed seen over the past 48 hours. It was his backers that rioted and shed the blood of their fellow Egyptians. It was Egyptian security that clubbed hundreds of people demonstrating for their rights and freedoms. Egyptian security that answered to him and his security apparatus.

21 Alexzander  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:15:07pm

re: #19 SpaceJesus

fun fact: yemen's capital went from 50k in 1970s to 1.5 million today. how the hell does job growth keep up with that?

Urbanization is presently an inevitability of financial globalization. No point trying to compete with the worlds cheapest food production.

22 What, me worry?  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:15:40pm

re: #5 lawhawk

I'm thinking that the members of the opposition in Iran are probably thinking that they: (1) missed a huge opportunity last year; (2) trying to figure out how to kickstart the opposition after the Basij and IRGC managed to thoroughly and effectively thrash the opposition with force.

The mullahs and Ahmadinejad are probably breathing a sigh of relief, knowing that they dealt with the opposition protests last year, and that their methods worked to crush the opposition then, and that they'd be likely to work again this time around.

But how long can they continue to blame us for this?

Actually, I was making a joke the other day that maybe Dubya was right all along. The war in Iraq will actually spark democracy all over the globe. I was kinda joking, but the more I think about it, maybe not so much! Then Chris Matthews "blamed" Bush for these recent riots. Although blaming Bush doesn't seem to make any sense, at least others are thinking about it!

23 Ericus58  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:16:16pm

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

Journalists get attacked, arrested in Egypt
includes a clip where the camera's are rolling...

24 Alexzander  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:16:23pm

re: #20 lawhawk

I agree completely. But what is significant here is that he has (potentially) opened the door to leaving immediately.

25 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:16:57pm

re: #10 Fozzie Bear

I'd go back a wee bit further than that. I'd see it as the ongoing and further wages of WWI - the breakup of the Ottoman Empire and the colonial division of the spoils of that war seeing as the borders were largely set in the interwar period and many of the monarchies were installed during that time.

26 Ericus58  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:17:33pm

re: #22 marjoriemoon

But how long can they continue to blame us for this?

Actually, I was making a joke the other day that maybe Dubya was right all along. The war in Iraq will actually spark democracy all over the globe. I was kinda joking, but the more I think about it, maybe not so much! Then Chris Matthews "blamed" Bush for these recent riots. Although blaming Bush doesn't seem to make any sense, at least others are thinking about it!

Matthews is blaming the current events in Egypt/elsewhere on Bush?!

27 Alexzander  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:17:44pm
28 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:18:12pm

re: #25 lawhawk

I'd go back a wee bit further than that. I'd see it as the ongoing and further wages of WWI - the breakup of the Ottoman Empire and the colonial division of the spoils of that war seeing as the borders were largely set in the interwar period and many of the monarchies were installed during that time.

Mm, yes, I was just thinking about that myself. Although at least a large portion of that territory was under the shield of the British protectorate during the interwar period, that also contributed to the nationalist sentiment that led to the current state of affairs.

29 SpaceJesus  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:18:44pm

re: #21 Alexzander


this isn't just urbanization, it's explosive population growth that is a powder keg.

30 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:19:27pm

re: #25 lawhawk

I'd go back a wee bit further than that. I'd see it as the ongoing and further wages of WWI - the breakup of the Ottoman Empire and the colonial division of the spoils of that war seeing as the borders were largely set in the interwar period and many of the monarchies were installed during that time.

I don't think it would make any difference. No matter how far back you could roll back the maps and borders or apply some alternative history nothing would really change. Borders have always been in dispute no matter who draws them up or when.

31 Alexzander  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:19:33pm

re: #29 SpaceJesus

true, yes.

32 What, me worry?  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:21:27pm

re: #26 Ericus58

Matthews is blaming the current events in Egypt/elsewhere on Bush?!

Someone posted that here a few days ago, although I didn't read it.

33 MilkOfMalfeasance  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:23:08pm

I still have a bad feeling about all of this, there is so much going on behind the scenes. I hope I am wrong, but I am trying to keep my optimism in check.

34 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:23:23pm

re: #23 Ericus58

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

Journalists get attacked, arrested in Egypt
includes a clip where the camera's are rolling...

International journalists just don't suppress that well. For every coward in the bunch, there's probably 2 more that will take the punches long enough to get the transmission on the airwaves.

35 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:25:09pm

re: #22 marjoriemoon

It's easier to blame someone than it is to try and solve a problem - especially one that is so difficult to deal with like economic growth, prosperity, and social freedoms in a region where those values are not exactly valued by those in charge.

So, the blame falls to the usual suspects: the US, Israel, Zionists/Jooos.

36 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:25:50pm

re: #30 Killgore Trout

I don't think it would make any difference. No matter how far back you could roll back the maps and borders or apply some alternative history nothing would really change. Borders have always been in dispute no matter who draws them up or when.

True enough, but there is definitely such a thing as well thought out vs. poorly conceived border placement. As many historians have pointed out, WWII may have been avoidable had the world dealt with Germany differently after WWI. Of course, we'll never know, but it's food for thought.

37 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:27:31pm

re: #30 Killgore Trout

Ah, but prior to WWI, the Ottoman Empire controlled nearly all of the Middle East, and so all the disputed borders were just provinces within a larger entity. The borders of the Ottoman Empire shifted over time, and the Ottomans themselves supplanted the Roman Empire, but the modern Middle East traces itself to the post WWI breakup of the Ottoman Empire with the establishment of various monarchies and protectorates.

38 Nemesis6  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:28:15pm

I don't know if I can be that positive about this -- With the main opposition groups being Islamists like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, and knowing how it's typically other tyrants that seize upon revolutions, I'll be watching this with one eye covered!

39 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:28:34pm

re: #22 marjoriemoon

But how long can they continue to blame us for this

A very long time.

In these kind of 'shame cultures' the blame always rests elsewhere.

In that kind of culture, shame always comes about as the result of unwanted comparisons. There is never any attempt to change/modify behaviors.

The problem remains until the source of the shame is removed- hence the obsession with the eradication of Israel, for example or the insistence that the west accept dysfunctional behavior as acceptable.

It is easier to blame outside influences than it is to modify behavior.

40 jordash1212  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:29:12pm

re: #37 lawhawk

You can almost see the compass lines on the map of the Middle East.

41 What, me worry?  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:30:06pm

re: #23 Ericus58

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

Journalists get attacked, arrested in Egypt
includes a clip where the camera's are rolling...

Just saw this bit from that clip if it hadn't already been covered here.

There have been several reports over Twitter that Mubarak's police have arrested "Sandmonkey," a prominent Egyptian blogger and critic of the regime. Just yesterday, he spoke to Pajamas Media TV about evading police officials who were apparently looking for him. (Later, Sandmonkey wrote on Twitter: I am ok. I got out. I was ambushed & beaten by the police, my phone confiscated , my car ripped apar& supplies taken #jan25).

43 What, me worry?  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:34:05pm

re: #39 researchok

A very long time.

In these kind of 'shame cultures' the blame always rests elsewhere.

In that kind of culture, shame always comes about as the result of unwanted comparisons. There is never any attempt to change/modify behaviors.

The problem remains until the source of the shame is removed- hence the obsession with the eradication of Israel, for example or the insistence that the west accept dysfunctional behavior as acceptable.

It is easier to blame outside influences than it is to modify behavior.

Right. Well, like all good dictators do, they have to have an outside enemy which is the cause of all the troubles. Diverts attention away from themselves and gives the people a "real" reason to be angry.

But if all of this sort of explodes at the same time, which it appears to be doing (even Jordan had protests earlier this week), I don't see how they can continue to promote that kind of thinking.

44 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:38:49pm

re: #43 marjoriemoon

Right. Well, like all good dictators do, they have to have an outside enemy which is the cause of all the troubles. Diverts attention away from themselves and gives the people a "real" reason to be angry.

But if all of this sort of explodes at the same time, which it appears to be doing (even Jordan had protests earlier this week), I don't see how they can continue to promote that kind of thinking.

Yeah, well, for the record, I'm ready for the US to stop being that outside enemy.

45 Ericus58  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:40:28pm

Well, all I can say is that the more is reported and documented about reporters and foreigners being targeted with harassment-violence...
you can kiss the Tourist business goodbye.

Hell, the foreign citizens that have been living there for years are pulling out as fast as they can.

What a meltdown.

46 Ojoe  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:40:31pm

re: #44 EmmmieG

We are a fine outside enemy, take it as a compliment.

47 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:41:11pm

re: #43 marjoriemoon

Right. Well, like all good dictators do, they have to have an outside enemy which is the cause of all the troubles. Diverts attention away from themselves and gives the people a "real" reason to be angry.

But if all of this sort of explodes at the same time, which it appears to be doing (even Jordan had protests earlier this week), I don't see how they can continue to promote that kind of thinking.

A lot has to do with image.

Do they want real democracy and change or do they just want to 'look good'?

You cannot claim to want democracy if you are satisfied with the MB representing you. That is the equivalent of saying the KKK can represent the real democratic aspirations of an oppressed people. Repressive groups replacing other repressive groups have nothing to do with democracy- that is about ideological war, with ham fisted leaders at the helm. Democracies don't threaten other democracies with war.

Elections do not a democracy make. Hamas is proof of that.

Democracies are all about institutions that offer equal protections and access.

48 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:43:55pm

re: #46 Ojoe

We are a fine outside enemy, take it as a compliment.

It's kind of like my friend that used to complain that his stepsister would never make a peep if her whole brother punched her in the arm, but shouted if he (the stepbrother) touched her even as a pat on the back.

49 mr.fusion  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:44:03pm

re: #38 Nemesis6

I don't know if I can be that positive about this -- With the main opposition groups being Islamists like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, and knowing how it's typically other tyrants that seize upon revolutions, I'll be watching this with one eye covered!

I don't know if this is fair. First, we don't really know what the mind set of the opposition groups are. You say they are "Islamist" (and state it rather matter of factly) but everything I'm seeing is that there isn't a particularly religious aspect to these revolts.

What I've heard since the beginning is that the protesters want a parliamentary style government with all different groups having a seat at the table. Will that include the Muslim Brotherhood? Sure, if they have the votes....but my mindset is democracy is favorable over tyranny. If the new Egyptian governments interest don't align with ours then the proper action will be taken.....but I don't like the idea that we should be hoping for an opressed Egyptian people because we can't trust their choice in leaders.

50 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:44:31pm

Do you see how nice things are around LGF when Walter is gone? My HP of 8 years finally died, and I've been spending the last few days making this new Dell Windows 7 box act like a real computer.

One of the most interesting surprises has been how Itunes and your past purchases for a Touch acts on a new computer. Basically I have learned that unless every single purchase you have ever made on Itunes is currently on your Touch (I imagine this is true of Iphone too), you're never going to see these purchases again, even though Apple has a record of what you purchased.

Be in and out until I get this this computer running to my liking.

51 recusancy  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:45:50pm

re: #47 researchok

A lot has to do with image.

Do they want real democracy and change or do they just want to 'look good'?

You cannot claim to want democracy if you are satisfied with the MB representing you. That is the equivalent of saying the KKK can represent the real democratic aspirations of an oppressed people. Repressive groups replacing other repressive groups have nothing to do with democracy- that is about ideological war, with ham fisted leaders at the helm. Democracies don't threaten other democracies with war.

Elections do not a democracy make. Hamas is proof of that.

Democracies are all about institutions that offer equal protections and access.

We have the current Republican party and it's more extreme Paulian/Angle/Palin wing. We still manage to survive as a democracy. Remember the MB gets about 10-20% support from the people. That's about as much as the teahadists.

52 What, me worry?  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:46:03pm

re: #44 EmmmieG

Yeah, well, for the record, I'm ready for the US to stop being that outside enemy.

We can't do anything about it. We have freedom. We easy pickins.

53 recusancy  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:47:15pm

re: #52 marjoriemoon

We can't do anything about it. We have freedom. We easy pickins.

I don't think they hate us for our freedoms. They hate us because we're involved in everything.

54 Alexzander  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:47:16pm

re: #47 researchok

A lot has to do with image.

Do they want real democracy and change or do they just want to 'look good'?

You cannot claim to want democracy if you are satisfied with the MB representing you. That is the equivalent of saying the KKK can represent the real democratic aspirations of an oppressed people. Repressive groups replacing other repressive groups have nothing to do with democracy- that is about ideological war, with ham fisted leaders at the helm. Democracies don't threaten other democracies with war.

Elections do not a democracy make. Hamas is proof of that.

Democracies are all about institutions that offer equal protections and access.

There is so much about this post that could be turned around at the US. By this standard, at best you could argue that the US has been a democracy since 1920. Given that it is near impossible for an outspoken atheist to become president (let alone a sekrit muslin), you could argue it is still aspiring to be a democracy. Furthermore, to many minorities both the republicans and democracts may appear to be repressive groups.

55 jordash1212  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:47:22pm

re: #39 researchok

I don't think there's any one easy answer for this. Shame is definitely a part of it, but there's constantly a reset button pushed when it comes to development. The West has historically stuck its nose in the Middle East for political reasons but more recently because of our addiction to oil. Stability is more profitable than instability. Whether or not you want to dismiss the U.S. overall history in the Middle East as heavy-handed, self-interested, and lacking nuance, the Arab world does need to look within and figure out some of these problems of imperialism, authoritarianism, and modernity/development for themselves.

It's interesting to mention that Anwar Sadat was hailed as a hero despite losing the Yom Kippur War. The Arab world considers that a victory and restoring dignity to their country. And if these protests, not just in Egypt but across the Middle East, aren't about restoring dignity, I don't know what they're about. Perhaps what we are witnessing isn't merely a movement against poverty, joblessness, and dictatorships, but a more significant transition to modernity. Implementing democracy is not just long and slow but it also a grassroots process.

56 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:47:48pm

re: #50 Walter L. Newton

Do you see how nice things are around LGF when Walter is gone? My HP of 8 years finally died, and I've been spending the last few days making this new Dell Windows 7 box act like a real computer.

One of the most interesting surprises has been how Itunes and your past purchases for a Touch acts on a new computer. Basically I have learned that unless every single purchase you have ever made on Itunes is currently on your Touch (I imagine this is true of Iphone too), you're never going to see these purchases again, even though Apple has a record of what you purchased.

Be in and out until I get this this computer running to my liking.

On the Mac there's a program called iRip that will copy music files from the iPod Touch to the Mac:

[Link: www.macupdate.com...]

There's probably a similar program for Windows.

57 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:47:52pm

re: #50 Walter L. Newton

Do you see how nice things are around LGF when Walter is gone? My HP of 8 years finally died, and I've been spending the last few days making this new Dell Windows 7 box act like a real computer.

One of the most interesting surprises has been how Itunes and your past purchases for a Touch acts on a new computer. Basically I have learned that unless every single purchase you have ever made on Itunes is currently on your Touch (I imagine this is true of Iphone too), you're never going to see these purchases again, even though Apple has a record of what you purchased.

Be in and out until I get this this computer running to my liking.

My favorite part of the iworld is the "sync" thing, which seems to mean, "permission to delete things we don't think you have legitimately."

58 mr.fusion  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:48:43pm

re: #47 researchok


You cannot claim to want democracy if you are satisfied with the MB representing you. That is the equivalent of saying the KKK can represent the real democratic aspirations of an oppressed people.

You're comparing the Muslim Brotherhood to the KKK?

I honestly don't know much about the organization, but what I've seen (everywhere other than FOXNews) is contradictory to that statement. I know they have a scaaary muslim-y name......but The Daily Dish posted remarks earlier this week from some of their leaders that made them seem fairly moderate

59 What, me worry?  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:49:18pm

re: #47 researchok

A lot has to do with image.

Do they want real democracy and change or do they just want to 'look good'?

You cannot claim to want democracy if you are satisfied with the MB representing you. That is the equivalent of saying the KKK can represent the real democratic aspirations of an oppressed people. Repressive groups replacing other repressive groups have nothing to do with democracy- that is about ideological war, with ham fisted leaders at the helm. Democracies don't threaten other democracies with war.

Elections do not a democracy make. Hamas is proof of that.

Democracies are all about institutions that offer equal protections and access.

What do they know from democracy? Nothing. Besides, it's not a democracy they want. They want a Republic. Majority wins the election. That's democracy, but majority doesn't rule. All people are represented in a republic.

And that's why, in this country, the KKK are not illegal. They aren't represented (per se), but they have a voice, a small little, squeaky, nasty voice.

The people want the freedom, the leaders want to keep them enslaved.

60 Alexzander  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:49:26pm

From a commenter on Redstate, to a recommended post that defends authoritarians (no kidding):

Obama has engineered the most dangerous threat to World Peace since the events of 1938-1940.

What we are seeing now is directly the result of his visit to Egypt and behind the scenes manipulation since then. The international Leftist cabal doesn’t want Egypt anywhere near as much as do the radical Islamo-facists. It is they who will emerge in control and Israel will be the touch point just as the Balkans in 1914.

61 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:50:47pm

re: #50 Walter L. Newton

Oh, I get it - you want to move your library to another computer. Here's a pretty good article on that:

[Link: www.associatedcontent.com...]

62 recusancy  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:51:45pm

re: #60 Alexzander

From a commenter on Redstate, to a recommended post that defends authoritarians (no kidding):

Conservatives like authoritarians if they are the right kind.

63 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:53:03pm

re: #58 mr.fusion

You're comparing the Muslim Brotherhood to the KKK?

I honestly don't know much about the organization, but what I've seen (everywhere other than FOXNews) is contradictory to that statement. I know they have a scaaary muslim-y name...but The Daily Dish posted remarks earlier this week from some of their leaders that made them seem fairly moderate

Yes, I am.

They advocate death for gays, their religious leaders are openly anti semitic and persecute Christians and support Quranic punishments including the stoning of women.

That's for starters.

What they say in English is very different from what they say in their own languages.

64 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:54:24pm

re: #60 Alexzander

From a commenter on Redstate, to a recommended post that defends authoritarians (no kidding):

If we're going to pine for authoritarian solutions, let's dwell on the days when that kind of drivel would get you three days of observation.

65 kindadifferent  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:56:26pm

Eloquently put, Lawhawk! re: #35 lawhawk

66 What, me worry?  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:56:28pm

re: #53 recusancy

I don't think they hate us for our freedoms. They hate us because we're involved in everything.

There's a difference? Their leaders, the Castros, the Chavezes, Achemdinajads, they hate our freedom. They hate the fact that gays and Jews and women have rights. Absolutely they do. And they're the ones who also hate that we have our hand in everything. Who else would give them aid and try to help them. Who else would pull their babies out of dumpsters (China) and find a family to love them. Ack. I get pissy about this, maybe you can tell.

They're governments have supporters, for sure.

67 Alexzander  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:57:26pm

re: #64 Decatur Deb

If we're going to pine for authoritarian solutions, let's dwell on the days when that kind of drivel would get you three days of observation.

I think the recommended diary speaks to the difficulty that many American conservatives are having with respect to processing the events of Egypt in a way consistent with the rest of their political ideology (especially their distaste for Obama and general islamophobia).

68 What, me worry?  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:57:32pm

re: #58 mr.fusion

You're comparing the Muslim Brotherhood to the KKK?

I honestly don't know much about the organization, but what I've seen (everywhere other than FOXNews) is contradictory to that statement. I know they have a scaaary muslim-y name...but The Daily Dish posted remarks earlier this week from some of their leaders that made them seem fairly moderate

Don't believe it.

69 mr.fusion  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:58:23pm

re: #63 researchok

Yes, I am.

They advocate death for gays, their religious leaders are openly anti semitic and persecute Christians and support Quranic punishments including the stoning of women.

That's for starters.

What they say in English is very different from what they say in their own languages.

Again, I don't know much about the organization so I'll take your link-less word for it, but....That's clearly not what's going on. As the commenter said a few posts up.....we have the KKK here, but they don't rule. I don't see any evidence that the Muslim Brotherhood is going to be appointing the next Head of State in Egypt....

70 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:58:32pm

re: #59 marjoriemoon

What do they know from democracy? Nothing. Besides, it's not a democracy they want. They want a Republic. Majority wins the election. That's democracy, but majority doesn't rule. All people are represented in a republic.

And that's why, in this country, the KKK are not illegal. They aren't represented (per se), but they have a voice, a small little, squeaky, nasty voice.

The people want the freedom, the leaders want to keep them enslaved.

What did the Poles know from democracy in 1989? We live in a much smaller world, nowadays. The Egyptians know a lot more about democracy than the Eastern Europeans did before the wall fell.

As for the KKK, we know what they are all about- and the Egyptians know what the MB is all about. It isn't as if they hide their agenda. And it appears a whole lot of Egyptians (not all) are perfectly satisfied with that.

Like the leaders that preceded them, the MB will keep a the next generation of Egyptians enslaved.

71 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 1:58:43pm

re: #67 Alexzander

Yes. They seem confused, as though the talking points got lost in the mail. Might be the blizzard.

72 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:00:54pm

re: #69 mr.fusion

Again, I don't know much about the organization so I'll take your link-less word for it, but...That's clearly not what's going on. As the commenter said a few posts up...we have the KKK here, but they don't rule. I don't see any evidence that the Muslim Brotherhood is going to be appointing the next Head of State in Egypt...

Check our MEMRI.org

All the links and translations you can handle.

See this as well.

73 recusancy  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:01:03pm

re: #70 researchok

What did the Poles know from democracy in 1989? We live in a much smaller world, nowadays. The Egyptians know a lot more about democracy than the Eastern Europeans did before the wall fell.

As for the KKK, we know what they are all about- and the Egyptians know what the MB is all about. It isn't as if they hide their agenda. And it appears a whole lot of Egyptians (not all) are perfectly satisfied with that.

Like the leaders that preceded them, the MB will keep a the next generation of Egyptians enslaved.

Do you have any factual proof of that or is it just your opinion? All the facts point to the MB having about 10-20% support in the population and practically no support among the young.

74 Ericus58  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:01:29pm

I think there is more validity to the reports that the Interior Minister is behind the recent violence from the Pro-Mubarak forces:

"#2156: Egypt's Prime Minister Ahmed Shafiq says the interior minister should not obstruct peaceful marches on Friday, in comments translated by Reuters."

The internal power struggle is becoming more visible.

75 wrenchwench  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:01:44pm

re: #50 Walter L. Newton

I thought you and CuriousLurker ran off. She isn't with you? She's been out since the 31st I think....

76 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:01:54pm

All this reminds me of a great quote...

There is no such thing as a little freedom. Either you are all free, or you are not free.--Walter Cronkite


The recent events seem to be showing people that not only can they rise up, but they can do so with a chance of winning... now we'll have to see if they can win the peace that comes after it....

77 ProMayaLiberal  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:02:31pm

Someone on The New Republic such put forward an interesing idea. That Egypt today is in a similar situation to Indonesia at the end of Suharto's time in power (Around May 1998). Thoughts?

[Link: www.tnr.com...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

From the start of the riots to Suharto's resignation took 9-10 days, by the way.

78 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:03:37pm

re: #69 mr.fusion

Again, I don't know much about the organization so I'll take your link-less word for it, but...That's clearly not what's going on. As the commenter said a few posts up...we have the KKK here, but they don't rule. I don't see any evidence that the Muslim Brotherhood is going to be appointing the next Head of State in Egypt...

By the way, Hizbollah is an example of MB affiliated group that wormed their way into the political arena in Lebanon.

Now they have appointed that nation's PM and have an enormous army of their own with tens of thousands of rockets pointed at Israel.

79 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:03:37pm

re: #44 EmmmieG

Yeah, well, for the record, I'm ready for the US to stop being that outside enemy.

The US will always be one of the convenient outside enemies until we stop being a global trading power, global military power, and global cultural influence. And even after we decline we'd probably be a convenient scapegoat for a few more generations - as an example of decadence and snotty attitude if nothing else.

80 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:04:10pm

re: #61 Charles

Oh, I get it - you want to move your library to another computer. Here's a pretty good article on that:

[Link: www.associatedcontent.com...]

Right. Thanks. The hard drive in my HP is fine, I purchased one of those external enclosures for it, the drive is running fine, I have all my documents and stuff intact. I also had a stick with all my writings and another stick with all my client code as off site backups (off site- my glove compartment).

So yes, all my apps and movies are in Itunes on my old drive. The only items I recovered so far were apps that were on my Touch. And even then, "Avatar" didn't come over into the new Itunes installment on this new Dell, even though it was on the Touch.

This is sort of rotten. Since you don't get hard copy of anything, but Apple has a account indicating what you purchased, it should be easy for them to let you recover something that belongs to you. No way. Good business model. You loose something because Itunes is a programmers mess, your fault. Honestly, I like the Touch, impressed with it, Itunes looks like something hacked together ever time they needed a new function... the look and feel is not even consistent through the app.

Thanks again.

81 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:04:47pm

re: #73 recusancy

Do you have any factual proof of that or is it just your opinion? All the facts point to the MB having about 10-20% support in the population and practically no support among the young.

Aren't the pro democracy demonstrators all for an El Baradei/MB political leadership alliance?

82 recusancy  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:05:03pm

re: #81 researchok

Aren't the pro democracy demonstrators all for an El Baradei/MB political leadership alliance?

No.

83 A Man for all Seasons  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:05:06pm

I just got skylights put into my place
The people above me are furious
/

84 Bubblehead II  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:05:42pm

re: #69 mr.fusion

They are not the Good Guys.

The Muslim Brotherhood.

85 What, me worry?  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:05:46pm

re: #70 researchok

What did the Poles know from democracy in 1989? We live in a much smaller world, nowadays. The Egyptians know a lot more about democracy than the Eastern Europeans did before the wall fell.

As for the KKK, we know what they are all about- and the Egyptians know what the MB is all about. It isn't as if they hide their agenda. And it appears a whole lot of Egyptians (not all) are perfectly satisfied with that.

Like the leaders that preceded them, the MB will keep a the next generation of Egyptians enslaved.

I don't have to tell you, because you're well aware, but Egypt is still run under theocratic rule, so there's a big difference between the U.S., communism and Islamic theocracy (maybe not so much those last two).

I think of the Arab countries along a line from "far left" to "far right". The UAE is on the far left of the spectrum, but mainly because 80% of their citizens are ex-pats (least in Dubai). Then as you move to the right, you have Jordan, Egypt, what used to be the country of Lebanon (God help them) maybe Turkey closer to the middle and then Yemen, Somalia, Sudan, S.A. at the right side. So you have more moderate Arab states, for sure and yet, just how moderate if the people are revolting.

86 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:06:32pm

re: #82 recusancy

No.

I see.

I guess the media has gotten it all wrong.

87 recusancy  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:06:36pm

re: #81 researchok

Aren't the pro democracy demonstrators all for an El Baradei/MB political leadership alliance?

See. You're basing all this off of perception. That leads to flawed conclusions.

88 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:06:57pm

re: #83 HoosierHoops

I just got skylights put into my place
The people above me are furious
/

Have that done by a contractor, or a tornado?

89 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:07:13pm

re: #58 mr.fusion

You're comparing the Muslim Brotherhood to the KKK?

I honestly don't know much about the organization, but what I've seen (everywhere other than FOXNews) is contradictory to that statement. I know they have a scaaary muslim-y name...but The Daily Dish posted remarks earlier this week from some of their leaders that made them seem fairly moderate

Do some more reading. They're not as scary as Fox would like them to be, but they're not exactly the charmers they're trying to portray themselves as.

90 recusancy  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:07:33pm

re: #87 recusancy

See. You're basing all this off of perception. That leads to flawed conclusions.

Which media? The media I see, the people there on the ground that live there, say it's at 10-20% support for MB.

91 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:08:08pm

re: #85 marjoriemoon

Turkey is not exactly an Arab state.

92 Kragar  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:08:43pm

re: #89 SanFranciscoZionist

Do some more reading. They're not as scary as Fox would like them to be, but they're not exactly the charmers they're trying to portray themselves as.

And many protestors resent them for joining the protests late and claiming to be political when they haven't accomplished anything in 30 years.

93 mr.fusion  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:09:11pm

re: #81 researchok

Aren't the pro democracy demonstrators all for an El Baradei/MB political leadership alliance?

No, not at all

From EVERYTHING I've seen (and I am stressing I'm pretty ignorant on ME affairs and this situation overall) the demonstrators want free and fair elections as they transition into a parliamentary type of system. That's pretty much the only demand.....well, that and they want the free and fair elections NOW

94 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:09:48pm

re: #85 marjoriemoon

I don't have to tell you, because you're well aware, but Egypt is still run under theocratic rule, so there's a big difference between the U.S., communism and Islamic theocracy (maybe not so much those last two).

I think of the Arab countries along a line from "far left" to "far right". The UAE is on the far left of the spectrum, but mainly because 80% of their citizens are ex-pats (least in Dubai). Then as you move to the right, you have Jordan, Egypt, what used to be the country of Lebanon (God help them) maybe Turkey closer to the middle and then Yemen, Somalia, Sudan, S.A. at the right side. So you have more moderate Arab states, for sure and yet, just how moderate if the people are revolting.

Exactly.

None of this can be easily reduced to a few catchphrases- way too many agendas, all of which place real democracy behind those agendas- and we haven't even mentioned the sunni/shia/sects issues.

What is happening in the region now cannot be reduced to a few minutes of breathless coverage.

95 What, me worry?  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:10:17pm

re: #89 SanFranciscoZionist

Do some more reading. They're not as scary as Fox would like them to be, but they're not exactly the charmers they're trying to portray themselves as.

The MB or the KKK ;)

You will never convince me the MB would be good for Egyptians. Most definitely not for Israel and thereby the whole region.

I compared them before to the EDL. They can't shake their skinhead, Nazi roots and neither will the Muslim Brotherhood shake their terrorist roots. Ever. In my mind. They are the reason Hamas even exists. Hamas is their legacy.

96 Alexzander  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:10:25pm
97 mr.fusion  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:10:45pm

re: #78 researchok

By the way, Hizbollah is an example of MB affiliated group that wormed their way into the political arena in Lebanon.

Now they have appointed that nation's PM and have an enormous army of their own with tens of thousands of rockets pointed at Israel.

Yea but that's like saying McDonalds in the US is the same as McDonalds in China.......

98 What, me worry?  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:11:06pm

re: #91 Sergey Romanov

Turkey is not exactly an Arab state.

No it's not. I meant Islamic there, but you can strike it out!

99 recusancy  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:11:20pm

re: #85 marjoriemoon

The UAE is far left???

100 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:11:22pm

re: #94 researchok

Exactly.

None of this can be easily reduced to a few catchphrases- way too many agendas, all of which place real democracy behind those agendas- and we haven't even mentioned the sunni/shia/sects issues.

What is happening in the region now cannot be reduced to a few minutes of breathless coverage.

And, like most cases, the triggering events at the grassroots level here are not idealogical, but economic in nature.

101 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:11:25pm

re: #95 marjoriemoon

The MB or the KKK ;)

You will never convince me the MB would be good for Egyptians. Most definitely not for Israel and thereby the whole region.

I compared them before to the EDL. They can't shake their skinhead, Nazi roots and neither will the Muslim Brotherhood shake their terrorist roots. Ever. In my mind. They are the reason Hamas even exists. Hamas is their legacy.

Four words, exquisite truth.

102 Alexzander  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:11:31pm

Amazing info on AJ live right now...

103 mr.fusion  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:12:04pm

re: #89 SanFranciscoZionist

Do some more reading. They're not as scary as Fox would like them to be, but they're not exactly the charmers they're trying to portray themselves as.

And I don't want to be construed as someone who thinks MB is going to usher in an era of free and fair society......I'm just not convinced that they will have the influence in Egypt that we're being led to believe they will by some of the fear mongers in the media

104 What, me worry?  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:12:24pm

re: #99 recusancy

The UAE is far left???

Left on the Islam scale, yes.

105 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:12:34pm

re: #84 Bubblehead II

They are not the Good Guys.

The Muslim Brotherhood.

"One week of every year is designated National Brotherhood Week. This is just one of many such weeks honoring various worthy causes. One of my favorites is National Make-fun-of-the-handicapped Week which Frank Fontaine and Jerry Lewis are in charge of as you know.

"During National Brotherhood Week various special events are arranged to drive home the message of brotherhood. This year, for example, on the first day of the week Malcolm X was killed which gives you an idea of how effective the whole thing is.

"I'm sure we all agree that we ought to love one another and I know there are people in the world that do not love their fellow human beings and I hate people like that. Here's a song about National Brotherhood Week."

106 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:12:45pm

re: #97 mr.fusion

Yea but that's like saying McDonalds in the US is the same as McDonalds in China...

The burger you get in China is pretty much the burger you get in China.

There are differences but the core menu is the same.

107 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:13:04pm

re: #91 Sergey Romanov

Turkey is not exactly an Arab state.

Turkey is not an Arab state. Period. Although I assume there are some Arabs there.

108 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:13:24pm

"What the global support means to us in Tahrir" [Link: boo.fm...]

109 Bob Levin  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:13:26pm

re: #14 justaminute

It ain't over till it's over.

110 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:13:37pm

re: #98 marjoriemoon

No it's not. I meant Islamic there, but you can strike it out!

I think it would be proper, it's a democracy after all, as well as a secular state (yes, this may change if the likes of Erdogan have their way).

111 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:13:58pm

For Sudan, see [Link: www.sudanesethinker.com...]

112 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:14:20pm

re: #107 SanFranciscoZionist

Turkey is not an Arab state. Period. Although I assume there are some Arabs there.

Pity the world is so complex that all the ethnic, religious, and racial lines don't conveniently all fall in the same place. If said line really exists at all...

113 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:14:23pm

re: #103 mr.fusion

And I don't want to be construed as someone who thinks MB is going to usher in an era of free and fair society...I'm just not convinced that they will have the influence in Egypt that we're being led to believe they will by some of the fear mongers in the media

Right now I am simply standing by to see what happens. I honestly cannot gauge the condition the MB in Egypt is in after thirty years of Hosni Mubarak.

114 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:15:01pm

re: #96 Alexzander

Catapult being built in Cairo

Damn. I guess it's a good thing the aren't a heavily armed society.

115 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:15:47pm

re: #107 SanFranciscoZionist

Turkey is not an Arab state. Period. Although I assume there are some Arabs there.

Well, I'm being gentle ;)

117 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:16:35pm

Sandmonkey interview with CBS: [Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

118 albusteve  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:16:40pm

at -5degF for 8 hours, potato juice will not freeze....try it yourself

119 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:16:42pm

re: #66 marjoriemoon

There's a difference? Their leaders, the Castros, the Chavezes, Achemdinajads, they hate our freedom.

Maybe, but what I see mostly is hypocrites hating on more successful hypocrites for talking up the merits of democracy while playing one set of dictators off another. I also see populations under control of said useful dictators waking up to the power of their own potential for self determination.

They hate the fact that gays and Jews and women have rights.

So do many of our own Christian Republicans, who work to re define marriage and rape laws, who pretend to love Jews while painting Israel into an apocalyptic fundamentalist corner at every opportunity.

Absolutely they do. And they're the ones who also hate that we have our hand in everything. Who else would give them aid and try to help them.

Our aid is largely designed to keep the oil flowing, to power and lubricate the machine of modern commerce. Altruism is a far distant motivation.

Who else would pull their babies out of dumpsters (China) and find a family to love them.

The same people who let domestic orphanages overflow with unwanted minorities while opposing legal abortion tooth and nail.

Ack. I get pissy about this, maybe you can tell.

Yep. That's okay, so do I.

They're governments have supporters, for sure.

Namely our own largest corporations.

120 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:16:58pm

Snooky and the metronome

121 mr.fusion  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:16:59pm

re: #113 SanFranciscoZionist

Right now I am simply standing by to see what happens. I honestly cannot gauge the condition the MB in Egypt is in after thirty years of Hosni Mubarak.

Or gauge the condition of the people......I'm in your boat on this one, but I stand by my original statement.

I want to see the dictator out and free and fair elections take place. If the Egyptian people choose to isolate themselves by allowing extremists to represent them, then we will deal with it. But it's the Egyptians decision to make.

122 ProMayaLiberal  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:17:02pm

re: #107 SanFranciscoZionist

Someone said the same thing to me about Turkey being Arab. Being a Middle Eastern Studies minor, I went berzerk when she said that. Although, thinking about it now, I think it was arrogance. She was someone who went to French and German speaking parts of Europe in the past, and seemed to believe they were the greatest, and believed everything the MEP's said to her about Muslims in Europe.

123 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:17:38pm

re: #103 mr.fusion

Maybe yes, maybe not. It's just it's always "about democracy" at first, "All Power to the Constituent Assembly". Then Bolsheviks (who are actually a minority) arrive.

124 Bob Levin  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:18:01pm

re: #25 lawhawk

You got that right. Europe took out their rulers to draw up borders, put in rulers to enforce their geometry, and continued to choose rulers who didn't know how to wisely rule.

125 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:18:13pm

An Overview of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood's Stance on U.S. and Jihad; Translation of Its Draft Political Platform

This report presents an overview of the positions of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, as expressed by its general guide, Muhammad Badi', since his nomination in January 2010, and as set out in its proposed political platform, which was drafted in the era of Badi's predecessor, Muhammad Mahdi 'Akef, and was leaked to the media in August 2007. The translations are taken from reports published by MEMRI over recent years.[1]

126 webevintage  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:19:09pm

Matthews is making fun of Beck again today....

127 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:19:11pm

re: #53 recusancy

I don't think they hate us for our freedoms. They hate us because we're involved in everything.



x: "Dear US government: We don't hate you because we hate your freedom; we hate you because you hate our freedom." #sidibouzid #jan25
128 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:19:52pm

re: #120 Killgore Trout

Snooky and the metronome

[Video]

HAHAHAHAHA the orange cat is so funny! She just can't quite acclimate to that noise.

twitch twitch twitch twitch twitch twitch twitch twitch twitch twitch twitch twitch twitch

129 kirkspencer  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:20:34pm

re: #72 researchok

Check our MEMRI.org

All the links and translations you can handle.

See this as well.

I dislike MEMRI.org. The translations are not completely trustworthy. The underlying problem is this. When you translate from one language to another literal translations are almost intelligible -- see babelfish for an example. Both idiom and context modify which words should be selected. MEMRI sets as default that everything said in Arabic is anti-US, anti-Israel, terroristic. As a result their translations use idiom transferences and contextual word choices that result in, well, in making everything from the MB sound like we should be happy Hamas intercedes with these guys.

Note that MB isn't all, or even mostly, good. And also note that MEMRI doesn't flat-out lie. It's more like...

It's more like Fox News discussing what Democratic politicians mean when they say something.

130 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:21:28pm

re: #129 kirkspencer

I dislike MEMRI.org. The translations are not completely trustworthy. The underlying problem is this. When you translate from one language to another literal translations are almost intelligible -- see babelfish for an example. Both idiom and context modify which words should be selected. MEMRI sets as default that everything said in Arabic is anti-US, anti-Israel, terroristic. As a result their translations use idiom transferences and contextual word choices that result in, well, in making everything from the MB sound like we should be happy Hamas intercedes with these guys.

Note that MB isn't all, or even mostly, good. And also note that MEMRI doesn't flat-out lie. It's more like...

It's more like Fox News discussing what Democratic politicians mean when they say something.

Why are their translations unreliable?

Is there evidence of that?

131 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:23:26pm

re: #129 kirkspencer

I dislike MEMRI.org. The translations are not completely trustworthy. The underlying problem is this. When you translate from one language to another literal translations are almost intelligible -- see babelfish for an example. Both idiom and context modify which words should be selected. MEMRI sets as default that everything said in Arabic is anti-US, anti-Israel, terroristic.

Do you have reason to think their translations are consistently skewed?

132 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:23:55pm

Shite, another crackdown. No cameras anywhere?!

Protesters in Tahrir are protecting themselves. Army disappeared!!

133 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:24:07pm

re: #129 kirkspencer

How is this 'out of context'?

134 What, me worry?  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:24:55pm

re: #110 Sergey Romanov

I think it would be proper, it's a democracy after all, as well as a secular state (yes, this may change if the likes of Erdogan have their way).

There's that icky word "Democracy". As much as I shouldn't, I'm beginning to loathe it. Pretty soon, it too will have lost all meaning.

I guess I included it because although not technically an Islamic theocracy, Islam is the major religion so I put it left of center.

135 kirkspencer  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:24:58pm

re: #130 researchok

Why are their translations unreliable?

Is there evidence of that?

I stated why they're unreliable.

The easiest evidence is to learn Arabic.

The second easiest is to check their translations against other translations of similar documents. For a long time you could check what MEMRI did against translations by Marc Lynch (Abu Ardvaark) and Juan Cole -- dunno if there's anything recent.

Again, the problem isn't that they make crap up. It's that if there is more than one way to interpret, MEMRI chooses the one that makes the Arabic source seem more fanatical. Use it, but keep your salt shaker stocked and handy.

136 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:25:51pm

re: #135 kirkspencer

I stated why they're unreliable.

The easiest evidence is to learn Arabic.

The second easiest is to check their translations against other translations of similar documents. For a long time you could check what MEMRI did against translations by Marc Lynch (Abu Ardvaark) and Juan Cole -- dunno if there's anything recent.

Again, the problem isn't that they make crap up. It's that if there is more than one way to interpret, MEMRI chooses the one that makes the Arabic source seem more fanatical. Use it, but keep your salt shaker stocked and handy.

Do you read Arabic?

137 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:25:58pm

re: #81 researchok

Aren't the pro democracy demonstrators all for an El Baradei/MB political leadership alliance?

No, not all, not even most. They have 15% of the shadow parliament's seats, and are content with that.

138 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:26:47pm

re: #130 researchok

Why are their translations unreliable?

Is there evidence of that?

When I wanted to use MEMRI clips about Islamist Holocaust denial (or Holocaust praise *shudder*) I googled around and found this:

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

It's not the only article about the "We will annihilate the Jews" mistranslation. I still used the clips since the context was quite clear, but when it comes to nuance, I would be a bit wary, to tell the truth.

139 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:26:57pm

re: #135 kirkspencer

I stated why they're unreliable.

The easiest evidence is to learn Arabic.

The second easiest is to check their translations against other translations of similar documents. For a long time you could check what MEMRI did against translations by Marc Lynch (Abu Ardvaark) and Juan Cole -- dunno if there's anything recent.

Again, the problem isn't that they make crap up. It's that if there is more than one way to interpret, MEMRI chooses the one that makes the Arabic source seem more fanatical. Use it, but keep your salt shaker stocked and handy.

Are there groups that regularly challenge the validity of the MEMRI translations?

140 Bob Levin  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:27:09pm

re: #30 Killgore Trout

Do you notice how the eastern US has states with amorphous borders and the western US has borders of squares and straight lines? That's because of the railroads, making natural borders obsolete. That's not a problem, we're all one country.

But the Middle East didn't have the technology of the US. Given the technological development of the Middle East after the Ottoman Empire, natural borders should have been respected.

There still may have been conflict, wars, but there may not have been the 'ethnic cleansing' that Saddam and many other rulers attempted.

141 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:27:52pm

re: #138 Sergey Romanov

When I wanted to use MEMRI clips about Islamist Holocaust denial (or Holocaust praise *shudder*) I googled around and found this:

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

It's not the only article about the "We will annihilate the Jews" mistranslation. I still used the clips since the context was quite clear, but when it comes to nuance, I would be a bit wary, to tell the truth.

See also [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

143 McSpiff  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:29:25pm

re: #135 kirkspencer

I've had a Persian speaker say this to me before about most Persian-English translations. While the content is generally correct, Persian apparently tends to be a bit more "dramatic" in its word choice. Not to be too crude, but it might be a bit like us assuming that expressions like "Mother F'er" be taken to mean you actually have sex with your mother.

144 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:29:43pm

Hm. Reported quiet @ Tahrir square.

145 BishopX  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:30:51pm

re: #95 marjoriemoon


I compared them before to the EDL. They can't shake their skinhead, Nazi roots and neither will the Muslim Brotherhood shake their terrorist roots. Ever. In my mind. They are the reason Hamas even exists. Hamas is their legacy.

I don't think the MB has terrorist roots. I think they have anti-colonialist roots which allowed them to justify violence as a political act. Big T terrorism wasn't invented when the MB was founded. The ottoman empire was finally broken up around 1923, and all of the middle east (including the Egypt which wasn't really part of the ottoman Empire) was placed under European colonial rule.

The ottoman empire had shariah law, in fact they considered Islamic law, as interpreted by Islamic judges(who were nominally independent), to be superior to the law as created by the sultan. When the Europeans took over they eliminated that whole tier of the legal system. The Muslim brotherhood was created partly as a response to that, as a way of working towards a resurgent Islamic political system. In many ways I think that they were trying to build a viable alternative to autocratic rule(which didn't work).

At the time they were pretty much the only Islamic political force, since then other have split off, but they were pretty instrumental in framing what it meant to be "islamic" politically.

146 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:31:32pm

re: #138 Sergey Romanov

When I wanted to use MEMRI clips about Islamist Holocaust denial (or Holocaust praise *shudder*) I googled around and found this:

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

It's not the only article about the "We will annihilate the Jews" mistranslation. I still used the clips since the context was quite clear, but when it comes to nuance, I would be a bit wary, to tell the truth.

I am sure there are occasional errors in translations/context. That is to be expected.

Nevertheless, I have yet to see any evidence or charges of deliberate and concerted representations.

Why would they? It isn't as if there isw a shortage of antisemtic or anti Israel sentiment in the region. As you pointed out (and no doubt know far more than the rest of us), Holocaust denial references could probably fill an encyclopedia.

MEMRI has no need to concoct anything.

147 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:32:23pm

re: #146 researchok

PIMF

Nevertheless, I have yet to see any evidence or charges of deliberate and concerted misrepresentations.

148 What, me worry?  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:32:30pm

re: #119 goddamnedfrank

Maybe, but what I see mostly is hypocrites hating on more successful hypocrites for talking up the merits of democracy while playing one set of dictators off another. I also see populations under control of said useful dictators waking up to the power of their own potential for self determination.

So do many of our own Christian Republicans, who work to re define marriage and rape laws, who pretend to love Jews while painting Israel into an apocalyptic fundamentalist corner at every opportunity.

Our aid is largely designed to keep the oil flowing, to power and lubricate the machine of modern commerce. Altruism is a far distant motivation.

The same people who let domestic orphanages overflow with unwanted minorities while opposing legal abortion tooth and nail.

Yep. That's okay, so do I.

Namely our own largest corporations.

What you say is not false, Frank, but I do take issue about our altruism. We do support countries in Africa and everywhere through many organizations that have nothing to do with oil. Americans are very generous people, both religious and secular.

And my China comment was a reference to the Christian missions all over China. Without them, those little babies would have died gruesome deaths. The missions deserve credit for saving them.

149 mr.fusion  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:33:12pm

re: #146 researchok

I am sure there are occasional errors in translations/context. That is to be expected.

Nevertheless, I have yet to see any evidence or charges of deliberate and concerted representations.

Why would they? It isn't as if there isw a shortage of antisemtic or anti Israel sentiment in the region. As you pointed out (and no doubt know far more than the rest of us), Holocaust denial references could probably fill an encyclopedia.

MEMRI has no need to concoct anything.

Well, I think the best proof of the extreme views of the Muslim Brotherhood would be clear cut examples.....suicide bombings or attacks where they've taken credit or been found guilty.

150 What, me worry?  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:33:17pm

Hate to have to dash in the middle of a good conversation, but I hope to catch up to you guys later.

151 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:33:54pm

re: #143 McSpiff

I've had a Persian speaker say this to me before about most Persian-English translations. While the content is generally correct, Persian apparently tends to be a bit more "dramatic" in its word choice. Not to be too crude, but it might be a bit like us assuming that expressions like "Mother F'er" be taken to mean you actually have sex with your mother.

That's an issue, yes. Middle Eastern languages tend to drama. However, taking the Guardian article as an example, it seems equally editorial to me to assume that 'martyrdom' simply means being shot by Israelis, in the context of a culture that actively promotes suicide bombing.

152 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:33:55pm

re: #145 BishopX

Big T terrorism wasn't invented when the MB was founded.

I think you are mistaken.

153 Bob Levin  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:33:56pm

re: #44 EmmmieG

There's nothing you can do about it. There are certain things that will occur no matter what you do or don't do. Like reseachok says, they are shaming cultures. There's a physics that goes with that, one principle being that there are no safe and moral options.

154 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:35:09pm
Tweets from #Tahrir say Mubarak govt set to launch another onslaught against pro-democracy movement. #Egypt #Jan25
155 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:36:16pm

Sketchy pro-Mubarak twitter accounts suddenly blooming like black mold on bad drywall: [Link: maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com...]

156 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:36:39pm

re: #149 mr.fusion

Well, I think the best proof of the extreme views of the Muslim Brotherhood would be clear cut examples...suicide bombings or attacks where they've taken credit or been found guilty.

HAMAS is the Palestinian MB organization.

157 McSpiff  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:37:35pm

re: #151 SanFranciscoZionist

That's an issue, yes. Middle Eastern languages tend to drama. However, taking the Guardian article as an example, it seems equally editorial to me to assume that 'martyrdom' simply means being shot by Israelis, in the context of a culture that actively promotes suicide bombing.

All about the context in which a term is used, certainly. Look at the controversy over Obama's "Gun to a knife fight", and that is a case where everyone speaks the same language.

158 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:37:48pm

re: #145 BishopX

I don't think the MB has terrorist roots. I think they have anti-colonialist roots which allowed them to justify violence as a political act. Big T terrorism wasn't invented when the MB was founded. The ottoman empire was finally broken up around 1923, and all of the middle east (including the Egypt which wasn't really part of the ottoman Empire) was placed under European colonial rule.

The ottoman empire had shariah law, in fact they considered Islamic law, as interpreted by Islamic judges(who were nominally independent), to be superior to the law as created by the sultan. When the Europeans took over they eliminated that whole tier of the legal system. The Muslim brotherhood was created partly as a response to that, as a way of working towards a resurgent Islamic political system. In many ways I think that they were trying to build a viable alternative to autocratic rule(which didn't work).

At the time they were pretty much the only Islamic political force, since then other have split off, but they were pretty instrumental in framing what it meant to be "islamic" politically.

The MB also exists in a variety of forms across the Middle East and North Africa. An offspring movement runs candidates for the Knesset in Israel, under the umbrella of the Unified Arab List.

159 Bob Levin  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:37:52pm

re: #49 mr.fusion

You're right that the situation is too chaotic to assess. The only reason that folks are speaking with worry about the Muslim Brotherhood is because there is a feeling that the MB will be able to organize more quickly than citizens with no affiliation towards any group.

160 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:38:42pm

re: #149 mr.fusion

Well, I think the best proof of the extreme views of the Muslim Brotherhood would be clear cut examples...suicide bombings or attacks where they've taken credit or been found guilty.


Muslim Brotherhood Ideologue Incites Violence Against Jews and Israel

161 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:38:55pm
Mubarak opened fire on civilians in #Tahrir, yet the Obama administration still wouldn't utter the phrase: "Mubarak Leave" #Jan25

Those who are still under the illusion of "obama can't tell another leader to leave" do some research on Ivory Coast. #Jan25

Responses I'm getting 2 rationalize Obama's handling of #Jan25: moral relativism, real politik, hopelessness..all attributes of Obama #Jan25

Decoding diplomatic code: "public calls don't help, behind the scenes is better"="we're not sure what we're doing" #Jan25

Interestingly, the Ivory Coast analogy showcases that ultimately Obama's policy in #Egypt isn't really based on any moral imperatives #Jan25

Decoding Diplomatic codes RT @samirnassar: "behind the scenes" = making sure that we didn't make commitments publicly. #Jan25


[Link: twitter.com...]

162 mr.fusion  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:39:26pm

re: #156 researchok

HAMAS is the Palestinian MB organization.

Again, I'm just going off what I'm reading....but I found this to be a great point

link

"Any analysis of the actual behavior of Hamas and The Muslim Brotherhood over the last couple decades shows that they're different organizations run by different personnel in different countries where they've made different things their main focus and evolved in unique ways, as is inevitable when taking an active role in the civic and political life of particular countries." Do they have a shared history and an overlapping ideology? Yes. Are they the same, so much so that one definitively predicts how the other will behave if it comes to power in a different country? Of course not.

163 Bob Levin  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:39:33pm

re: #51 recusancy

The teahadists will not be winning enough elections to have national power.

164 kirkspencer  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:40:22pm

re: #136 SanFranciscoZionist

Do you read Arabic?

Not fluently. I have to go to my references a lot.re: #139 researchok

Are there groups that regularly challenge the validity of the MEMRI translations?

CNN's Arabic translators have mentioned it several times. Norman Finkelstein and Juan Cole regularly object. For integrity's sake I'll mention Al Jazeera but I acknowledge that Al Jazeera saying MEMRI mistranslates Al Jazeera forces a "he said/he said" position.

Use it. But recognize the bias and trust it as much as you trust Al Jazeera in English for the same underlying reason. Sometimes one is more accurate than the other, but neither is always better.

165 recusancy  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:40:56pm

re: #163 Bob Levin

The teahadists will not be winning enough elections to have national power.

Then neither will the muslim brotherhood because they have analogous appeal to Egyptians.

166 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:41:11pm

Mubarak intensifies press attacks with assaults, detentions, list curated by the Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ).

167 BishopX  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:41:33pm

re: #156 researchok

HAMAS is the Palestinian MB organization.

That's like saying that the weather underground is the same things as SDS.

168 kirkspencer  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:41:34pm

re: #162 mr.fusion

Again, I'm just going off what I'm reading...but I found this to be a great point

link

As I said about the MB the other day (yesterday? day before?) the MB is as monolithic as freemasonry. Some of them are worse than the stories tell. Others aren't.

169 Bob Levin  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:42:00pm

re: #53 recusancy

And they're not involved? This wouldn't be much of a crisis if they weren't involved in energy, shipping, agriculture, clothing (cotton), the Suez Canal--this is a very significant amount of involvement.

170 recusancy  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:42:47pm

re: #169 Bob Levin

And they're not involved? This wouldn't be much of a crisis if they weren't involved in energy, shipping, agriculture, clothing (cotton), the Suez Canal--this is a very significant amount of involvement.

huh?

172 engineer cat  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:43:17pm

Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak says he is fed up with with being president and would like to leave his office now but cannot for fear of chaos

people just don't appreciate high quality dictating these days

173 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:44:42pm

re: #164 kirkspencer

Not fluently. I have to go to my references a lot.re: #139 researchok

CNN's Arabic translators have mentioned it several times. Norman Finkelstein and Juan Cole regularly object. For integrity's sake I'll mention Al Jazeera but I acknowledge that Al Jazeera saying MEMRI mistranslates Al Jazeera forces a "he said/he said" position.

Use it. But recognize the bias and trust it as much as you trust Al Jazeera in English for the same underlying reason. Sometimes one is more accurate than the other, but neither is always better.

MEMRI translates tens of thousands of broadcasts/documents a month.

That CNN translators have 'mentioned it several times' is of little import.

That Juan Cole and Norman 'Holocaust Truther' Finklestein regularly object is probably the best endorsement MEMRI could hope for.

174 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:45:00pm

re: #165 recusancy

Then neither will the muslim brotherhood because they have analogous appeal to Egyptians.

Possibly, but one of the things keeping the TPers from becoming a real problem is that we have an extremely stable country.

Egypt, right now...

175 Bob Levin  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:47:19pm

re: #55 jordash1212

I think poverty and joblessness are a big factor. When people can't eat, they are ready to die to live. That's what happening. They are all risking their lives.

176 recusancy  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:47:31pm

re: #174 SanFranciscoZionist

Possibly, but one of the things keeping the TPers from becoming a real problem is that we have an extremely stable country.

Egypt, right now...

That is a fair point but I'm just tired of everyone on the right not even giving the Egyptians a chance.

177 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:47:57pm

re: #167 BishopX

That's like saying that the weather underground is the same things as SDS.

Global Security:

HAMAS (Islamic Resistance Movement)

HAMAS, which includes military and political wings, was formed by the late Sheik Ahmad Yasinat at the onset of the first Palestinian uprising or Intifadah in late 1987, as an outgrowth of the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. The armed element, called the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, conducts anti-Israeli attacks, including suicide bombings against civilian targets inside Israel. Social-political elements engage in "Dawa" or ministry activities, which include running charities and schools, fund-raising and political activities. A Shura council based in Damascus, Syria, sets overall policy. Since winning Palestinian Authority (PA) elections in 2006, HAMAS has taken control of significant PA ministries, including the Ministry of Interior. HAMAS formed an expanded, overt militia called the Executive Force, subordinate to the Ministry.

178 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:48:16pm

re: #172 engineer dog

Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak says he is fed up with with being president and would like to leave his office now but cannot for fear of chaos

people just don't appreciate high quality dictating these days

I have a feeling that Amanpour might have been selected for her cluelessness to conduct that interview:


Is this a joke? RT
@camanpour: Mubarak tells Egypt that he will replace the government tomorrow. Some Egyptians say that is not enough.

I mean is Christianne Amanpour (@camanpour) joking by saying "Some Egyptians say that is not enough." #JOURNALISMFAIL

179 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:52:17pm

re: #176 recusancy

That is a fair point but I'm just tired of everyone on the right not even giving the Egyptians a chance.

OK. I think Egypt is pretty much screwed for the duration as far as democracy is concerned, but I am willing to be pleasantly surprised.

180 engineer cat  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:53:01pm

Algeria, Yemen, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon

i thought the lebanese constitution required a new government every 43 minutes

181 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:54:03pm

Secretary Clinton Condemns Attacks on Demonstrators and Journalists in Egypt

182 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:57:16pm

re: #180 engineer dog

Algeria, Yemen, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon

i thought the lebanese constitution required a new government every 43 minutes

Kinda like Italy.
//

183 kirkspencer  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:57:30pm

re: #173 researchok

MEMRI translates tens of thousands of broadcasts/documents a month.

That CNN translators have 'mentioned it several times' is of little import.

That Juan Cole and Norman 'Holocaust Truther' Finklestein regularly object is probably the best endorsement MEMRI could hope for.

Ah, I see.

184 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:57:44pm

Crackdown in Sudan:
[Link: www.voanews.com...]

185 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:57:47pm

I'm quite late with this question, but: what do y'all think about the fact that the US is now actively on the protesters' side? Personally I think it's risky, because if MB does take power after all, this will backfire spectacularly. But I'm willing to change this view...

186 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 3:01:26pm

re: #185 Sergey Romanov

I'm quite late with this question, but: what do y'all think about the fact that the US is now actively on the protesters' side? Personally I think it's risky, because if MB does take power after all, this will backfire spectacularly. But I'm willing to change this view...

I'm with you on this.

Other than a few 'regrettable', 'sorry', 'sad' and some 'hopeful' platitudes, we ought to say less and watch and listen more.

187 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 3:01:28pm

re: #185 Sergey Romanov

Sandmonkey put it best: America has a right to act in its interests. But it has to pick between its interests and its ideals, here.

One of the great things about America is its ability to make fighting for its ideals its interest.

188 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 3:03:27pm

re: #187 000G

Sandmonkey put it best: America has a right to act in its interests. But it has to pick between its interests and its ideals, here.

One of the great things about America is its ability to make fighting for its ideals its interest.

I think everyone is hoping for the emergence of a real democracy. The issue is really one of whether or not that is realistic.

This is very different than what happened in Eastern Europe.

189 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 3:04:03pm

re: #186 researchok

I didn't really change my position (which I expressed here before Obama spoke on the issue) that it would be wise not to take position. Then again, maybe the folks there know something that we mere mortals don't?

190 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 3:06:08pm

re: #189 Sergey Romanov

I didn't really change my position (which I expressed here before Obama spoke on the issue) that it would be wise not to take position. Then again, maybe the folks there know something that we mere mortals don't?

What I find disconcerting is the notion that to many these events are equivalent to what happened in Eastern Europe.

191 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 3:08:54pm

There is always a possibility that bad guys might take over. But believing that they will or that it is even likely when it is not likely is paranoid, like wignuts believing Obama is bent on turning America into a socialist hellhole. If you believed mere possibility of a takeover of fundamentalists was bad enough, you would have to support outlawing the GOP or elections in the USA in general as long as they were still out of power. In essence, democracy from a 1st-person-perspective is all about regularly letting other people getting to power.

I trust the countless reports from people on the grounds that the MB is not strong enough to take the thunder of this.

192 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 3:13:04pm

re: #191 000G

There is always a possibility that bad guys might take over. But believing that they will or that it is even likely when it is not likely is paranoid, like wignuts believing Obama is bent on turning America into a socialist hellhole. If you believed mere possibility of a takeover of fundamentalists was bad enough, you would have to support outlawing the GOP or elections in the USA in general as long as they were still out of power. In essence, democracy from a 1st-person-perspective is all about regularly letting other people getting to power.

I trust the countless reports from people on the grounds that the MB is not strong enough to take the thunder of this.

I'm looking at this with a long view.

The Lebanese made room for Hizbollah a decade ago and look what happened- Hizbollah is calling the shots in Lebanon.

Arafat made room for Hamas and now it is the PA that is in danger of falling.

The MB and it's offshoots and allies are ruthless. The river of blood behind them is knee deep.

193 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 3:14:08pm

HOLY FUDGE!

Very graphic:

The diplomatic car that ran over 20 people in cairo (28th-Jan-2011)

194 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 3:14:21pm

re: #191 000G

There is always a possibility that bad guys might take over. But believing that they will or that it is even likely when it is not likely is paranoid, like wignuts believing Obama is bent on turning America into a socialist hellhole. If you believed mere possibility of a takeover of fundamentalists was bad enough, you would have to support outlawing the GOP or elections in the USA in general as long as they were still out of power. In essence, democracy from a 1st-person-perspective is all about regularly letting other people getting to power.

I trust the countless reports from people on the grounds that the MB is not strong enough to take the thunder of this.

The GOP comparison is not really apt (as stupid as the GOP has become lately). The MB is more along the lines of the KKK.

195 researchok  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 3:16:01pm

re: #193 000G

HOLY FUDGE!

Very graphic:

The diplomatic car that ran over 20 people in cairo (28th-Jan-2011)


[Video]

Does anyone know which mission owned the vehicle?

196 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 3:17:57pm

re: #195 researchok

Does anyone know which mission owned the vehicle?

No clue. Will report if and when I find out.

197 Alexzander  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 3:18:27pm

re: #193 000G

HOLY FUDGE!

Very graphic:

The diplomatic car that ran over 20 people in cairo (28th-Jan-2011)


[Video]

I posted the same thing further up the thread:

re: #142 Alexzander

Horrific video from the 28th showing diplomatic (?) van drive through crowd of protesters (warning, possibly disturbing)

198 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 3:20:06pm

re: #197 Alexzander

Apologies. Hadn't looked.

199 Bob Levin  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 3:24:49pm

re: #164 kirkspencer

Norman Finkelstein and Juan Cole as objective? Do you really want to go there?

This argument about translations is one of literal versus an internal meaning. Two separate arguments. For instance, taking a literal approach, Cole was saying that Ahmadinejad really didn't want to destroy Israel. Of course Ahmadinejad wants to destroy Israel, although it didn't perfectly translate.

200 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 3:25:06pm

Emergency Clinic Tahrir 2/2/11

A Barrage of Rocks - Front Lines, Tahrir Square, Cairo 2/2/11

Protestors Catching a Thug in Tahrir Square- Cairo 2/2/11

202 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 3:27:30pm
#TAHRIR Medical supplies and food confiscated now by army! at Kalioub bridge northern entrance to Cairo from the Delta [Link: wp.me...]


[Link: twitter.com...]

203 Bob Levin  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 3:28:13pm

re: #165 recusancy

I'm not making predictions on the final outcome. The issue is with the nature of the MB. On that, I'm deferring to others. However, a key element is how groups feel about modernity and globalization.

204 Bob Levin  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 3:29:14pm

re: #167 BishopX

They're pretty darned close.

206 Bob Levin  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 3:32:16pm

re: #170 recusancy

The argument was--why is there hatred of the US. The reply was that the Arab animosity towards the US is because the US is involved in everything. My reply is that the Arab world is also involved in everything. Globalization.

207 Bob Levin  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 3:34:28pm

re: #176 recusancy

Well, the folks arguing here are not on the Right.

209 BishopX  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 3:38:26pm

re: #204 Bob Levin

This kind of identity isn't transitive. Saying that hamas came from the MB says something about hamas, it doesn't say anything about the MB.

210 Bob Levin  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 3:42:02pm

re: #185 Sergey Romanov

I've never been a fan of the State Department. It has the collective judgment of Colonel Klink, but with a mean streak. It's always a safe bet to assume that whatever pathway they choose will be the wrong pathway. That's how they spend the first hour of their day, choosing the wrong pathway. The remaining 9 hours are spent putting out the fires they created in the first hour.

211 Bob Levin  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 3:48:05pm

re: #209 BishopX

I was talking about the weather underground and SDS. Researchok is doing the hard work on the links between Hamas and the Brotherhood. I'm just a listener on that thread.


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