GOP’s ‘Protect Life Act’ Says Hospitals Can Let Women Die

Republican misogyny goes into overdrive
Health • Views: 36,250

It was bad enough when they tried to redefine rape, but a new bill introduced by Republican Congressman Joe Pitts with the Orwellian title “Protect Life Act” is truly obscene.

This bill changes the requirement that emergency room doctors must try to save every patient, by creating a special exception for pregnant women — an exception that allows doctors and hospitals to let pregnant women die if saving them requires an abortion. The hospital would not be required to do anything at all; they would not even have to facilitate a transfer.

That’s right. According to the “pro-life” GOP, an unborn fetus is a person — but a woman is not.

TPM has a good summation of this deeply misogynistic legislation:

A bit of backstory: currently, all hospitals in America that receive Medicare or Medicaid funding are bound by a 1986 law known as EMTALA to provide emergency care to all comers, regardless of their ability to pay or other factors. Hospitals do not have to provide free care to everyone that arrives at their doorstep under EMTALA — but they do have to stabilize them and provide them with emergency care without factoring in their ability to pay for it or not. If a hospital can’t provide the care a patient needs, it is required to transfer that patient to a hospital that can, and the receiving hospital is required to accept that patient.

In the case of an anti-abortion hospital with a patient requiring an emergency abortion, ETMALA would require that hospital to perform it or transfer the patient to someone who can. (The nature of how that procedure works exactly is up in the air, with the ACLU calling on the federal government to state clearly that unwillingness to perform an abortion doesn’t qualify as inability under EMTALA. That argument is ongoing, and the government has yet to weigh in.)

Pitts’ new bill would free hospitals from any abortion requirement under EMTALA, meaning that medical providers who aren’t willing to terminate pregnancies wouldn’t have to — nor would they have to facilitate a transfer.

The hospital could literally do nothing at all, pro-choice critics of Pitts’ bill say. “This is really out there,” Donna Crane, policy director at NARAL Pro-Choice America told TPM. “I haven’t seen this before.”

Crane said she’s been a pro-choice advocate “for a long time,” yet she’s never seen anti-abortion bill as brazenly attacking the health of the mother exemption as Pitts’ bill has.

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378 comments
1 Kragar  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:16:39am

You fucking bastards.

2 Gus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:18:18am

The puritanical lunatic sectarians are on a warpath against women. Let us hope that this is their last gasp.

3 laZardo  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:19:09am

There are a lot of things I could say that could result in my comment's deletion.

Instead, I'll just say: conservatism.

4 iceweasel  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:19:38am

Also:

Arkansas Anti-Choicers Reject Abortion Restriction Bill Because it Includes Exceptions for Rape and Incest

This isn't going away.

BTW, I just read that Shelley Shannon is up for parole in 2018.

5 JAFO  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:19:57am

The GOP must really hate women. They sure do like rape though.

6 laZardo  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:20:47am

re: #5 mracb

The GOP must really hate women. They sure do like rape though.

Luap Dnar is GOP...Anonymous idolize him...MAKES PERFECT SENSE!

/-quarter

7 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:21:25am

re: #4 iceweasel

Also:

Arkansas Anti-Choicers Reject Abortion Restriction Bill Because it Includes Exceptions for Rape and Incest

This isn't going away.

BTW, I just read that Shelley Shannon is up for parole in 2018.

Ice! Always nice to see you!

8 Kragar  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:21:37am

re: #5 mracb

The GOP must really hate women. They sure do like rape though.

Putting uppity women in their place is a long standing conservative principle.

9 Ramona  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:21:37am

This is not about "life", pro or anti. This is about power, about chauvinism, about a deep hatred of "other".

10 Lidane  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:21:52am

re: #3 laZardo

There are a lot of things I could say that could result in my comment's deletion.

And there are plenty of things I could say that would result in my banning.

Fuck these people. The more I see things like this, the more I think the GOP is anti-woman. It's sickening.

11 iceweasel  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:23:11am

re: #2 Gus 802

The puritanical lunatic sectarians are on a warpath against women. Let us hope that this is their last gasp.

It won't end.

re: #5 mracb

The GOP must really hate women. They sure do like rape though.

Image: robertstacymccain.jpg

Yep.

12 jaunte  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:24:38am

I bet Pitts is afraid that religious zealots might take over in Egypt.

13 iceweasel  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:24:49am

in re: 11, that's the name of my file, not a picture of RSM.

Hey Hoops! Great to see you! how are you?

14 Lidane  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:24:52am

re: #9 Ramona

This is not about "life", pro or anti. This is about power, about chauvinism, about a deep hatred of "other".

You've just summed up the so-called "pro-life" movement. It's never been about anything except controlling women and shaming them.

15 RadicalModerate  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:24:52am

As much as our fundamentalist Christian GOP hates Sharia Law, they seem to be going out of their way to emulate the social tenets of it.

16 SpaceJesus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:25:13am

disgusting.

17 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:25:51am

This reminds me of McCain's bizarre mockery of concerns for the health of the mother during the campaign.

A great proportion of the anti-abortion rhetoric that flows from the GOP and the religious right has nothing at all to do with the child, and everything to do with the women who had the temerity to get herself pregnant, and the temerity to want to medically terminate that pregnancy.

The focus is on the woman, and punishing her, whether it's forcing her to have a vaginal ultrasound against her will, forcing her to hear the fetus described to her, forcing her to inform the father-- and possibly face abuse or coercion-- forcing her to drive hundreds of miles before she finds-- if she finds-- an abortion provider, and now, finally, forcing her to die.

For no reason.

18 Gus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:26:48am

There is no other way to describe this other than human sacrifice. The mother is sacrificed based on Bronze Age beliefs. After the mother dies she is swept into heaven where she lives happily ever after for eternity. This as deemed by the "religious elders" of the GOP and their theocratic supporters. And people wonder why they call them the American Taliban?

19 iceweasel  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:27:07am

re: #17 Obdicut

This reminds me of McCain's bizarre mockery of concerns for the health of the mother during the campaign.

A great proportion of the anti-abortion rhetoric that flows from the GOP and the religious right has nothing at all to do with the child, and everything to do with the women who had the temerity to get herself pregnant, and the temerity to want to medically terminate that pregnancy.

The focus is on the woman, and punishing her, whether it's forcing her to have a vaginal ultrasound against her will, forcing her to hear the fetus described to her, forcing her to inform the father-- and possibly face abuse or coercion-- forcing her to drive hundreds of miles before she finds-- if she finds-- an abortion provider, and now, finally, forcing her to die.

For no reason.

For the crime of being a fertile female.

20 Jimmah  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:27:09am

re: #15 RadicalModerate

As much as our fundamentalist Christian GOP hates Sharia Law, they seem to be going out of their way to emulate the social tenets of it.

As regards their attitudes to women (among many other things) they are pretty much on the same page.

21 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:27:48am

Here is the quote from McCain:

22 Gus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:28:04am

re: #11 iceweasel

It won't end.

I had momentary bout of optimism.

23 Kragar  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:28:50am

re: #15 RadicalModerate

As much as our fundamentalist Christian GOP hates Sharia Law, they seem to be going out of their way to emulate the social tenets of it.

But those are godless heathens who follow myths hundreds of years old, while their myths are a few thousand years older and come slightly more north and west while still being from the same general region.

Surely you can see the differences?

24 Lidane  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:29:46am

re: #17 Obdicut

The focus is on the woman, and punishing her, whether it's forcing her to have a vaginal ultrasound against her will, forcing her to hear the fetus described to her, forcing her to inform the father-- and possibly face abuse or coercion-- forcing her to drive hundreds of miles before she finds-- if she finds-- an abortion provider, and now, finally, forcing her to die.

For no reason.

Of course there's a reason. She's a woman. That's reason enough for these assholes. =P

25 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:30:46am

re: #17 Obdicut

I forgot other measure punitive of women the GOP has put in place in various areas, like having an open database of women who got abortions (without names, but with identifying information), requiring them to fill out a long, insulting questionnaire, the contents of which would be available to law enforcement and legislators, and forcing women to seek out an obstetrician rather than any other sort of doctor or prescribing nurse in order to prescribe the simple morning-after pill.

The list is pretty endless, really.

26 webevintage  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:31:04am

re: #4 iceweasel

Also:

Arkansas Anti-Choicers Reject Abortion Restriction Bill Because it Includes Exceptions for Rape and Incest

Yeah.
As the head Forced Birth Supporter in our leg. Bledsoe was on TV the other night whinging about the "poison pill" amendment as "hostile".
snort.
As if her bill SB113 is not hostile to women.
Ugh and ugh and God, these sanctimonious Forced Birthers just chap my hide.

27 TedStriker  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:31:32am

re: #15 RadicalModerate

As much as our fundamentalist Christian GOP hates Sharia Law, they seem to be going out of their way to emulate the social tenets of it.

Control over others in every facet of society is unacceptable to the wingnuts, unless it's them who has the reins...

28 iceweasel  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:32:14am

re: #22 Gus 802

I had momentary bout of optimism.

{Gus}

Sadly, I had just read this:

South Dakota Seeks to Force Women into Crisis Pregnancy Centers

You read that correctly, women wanting an abortion will be FORCED to visit pregnancy help center, otherwise known as a crisis pregnancy center. Many of these centers are not regulated by a government agency and are routinely staffed by volunteers who lack any type of training.

The bill also defines a CPC such that it is virtually impossible for a pro-choice organization to establish a CPC. From HB 1217:

“The pregnancy help center has a facility or office in the state of South Dakota in which it routinely consults with women for the purpose of helping them keep their relationship with their unborn children; that one of its principal missions is to educate, counsel, and otherwise assist women to help them maintain their relationship with their unborn children; that they do not perform abortions at their facility, and have no affiliation with any organization or physician which performs abortions; that they do not now refer pregnant women for abortions, and have not referred any pregnant women for an abortion at any time in the three years immediately preceding July 1, 2011.”

In 2006 the Congressionally-funded Waxman report, False and Misleading Health Information Provided by Federally Funded Pregnancy Resource Center found 87 percent of the centers contacted provided false and misleading information about a link between abortion and breast cancer, the effect of abortion on future fertility and the mental health effects of abortion.

29 Gus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:32:31am

Right about now I'm thinking about the Muslim Christian* Brotherhood. We have our own version of religious extremists in this country.

*Yes, I know that all Christian are not like this but these people primarily identify themselves as such

30 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:32:35am

re: #13 iceweasel

in re: 11, that's the name of my file, not a picture of RSM.

Hey Hoops! Great to see you! how are you?

Doing great Ice! We had a huge storm here in Oklahoma..Haven't seen a snow plow yet on the side streets..No way to make it to the main streets cause of the drifts...So Winston and I are watching the travel channel about China..We have plenty of people and dog food stocked up and german beer for the Superbowl..
/Miss you

31 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:33:57am

re: #28 iceweasel

Whereas I think it should be a crime to provide purposefully misleading medical information.

32 iceweasel  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:34:00am

SD should just rename their 'crisis centres' the Ministry of Love and hold their 'counseling' sessions in room 101.

33 Kragar  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:36:33am

To repeat,

The Handmaid's Tale is supposed to be a warning, NOT a bloody roadmap.

34 Gus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:37:15am

Anti-women, anti-abortion, anti-AGW, anti-evolution, anti-gay, anti-science.

Mind boggling.

35 RadicalModerate  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:37:18am

Update on topic of thread downstairs: MSNBC just reported that Mubarak did not resign from Egypt's NDP, however several other high-ranking officials did resign.
Calls for new rounds of protests are already being circulated.

36 Kronocide  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:39:28am

This is totally rational if you think women cause of rape.

37 Lidane  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:40:12am

This song's been on heavy rotation for me lately as I watch the kids in Egypt, and seeing our own homegrown Taliban pull out more anti-women shit like this makes me play it even louder:

38 Gus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:41:31am

re: #15 RadicalModerate

As much as our fundamentalist Christian GOP hates Sharia Law, they seem to be going out of their way to emulate the social tenets of it.

Precisely.

39 Stanghazi  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:41:44am

Nice to see you Ice & Jimmah! How's the nest?

40 RadicalModerate  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:42:14am

re: #28 iceweasel

{Gus}

Sadly, I had just read this:

South Dakota Seeks to Force Women into Crisis Pregnancy Centers

Unreal. Even Texas came down hard on the "Crisis Pregnancy" groups for false advertising and their strongarm tactics against women desiring to terminate their pregnancies.

41 iceweasel  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:42:38am

re: #36 BigPapa

This is totally rational if you think women cause of rape.

They do. This is why they want notions like 'forcible rape' (because unless you're beaten half to death it can't be rape, amirite?) and why judges will decide your jeans are so tight it wasn't rape.

42 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:43:08am

re: #23 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

But those are godless heathens who follow myths hundreds of years old, while their myths are a few thousand years older and come slightly more north and west while still being from the same general region.

Surely you can see the differences?

But they break eggs from the small end. How can you not see that?

43 Gus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:44:09am

re: #41 iceweasel

They do. This is why they want notions like 'forcible rape' (because unless you're beaten half to death it can't be rape, amirite?) and why judges will decide your jeans are so tight it wasn't rape.

Link doesn't work.

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

44 iceweasel  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:45:00am

re: #43 Gus 802

Link doesn't work.

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

oh thanks! Damn you daily mail. Grrrr.
Good to see you, btw. :)

45 Lidane  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:45:39am

re: #36 BigPapa

This is totally rational if you think women cause of rape.

Of course women cause rape. Just look at them, walking around in skin-tight jeans, or drinking alcohol, or wearing makeup, or daring to talk to or flirt with men. And heaven help her if she ever enjoyed sex in her life. That just proves she's a shameless whore who should be allowed to die.

/wingnut

46 Gus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:45:43am

re: #44 iceweasel

oh thanks! Damn you daily mail. Grrr.
Good to see you, btw. :)

Good to see you as well. Hope things are doing well across the pond.

47 austin_blue  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:46:07am

re: #41 iceweasel

They do. This is why they want notions like 'forcible rape' (because unless you're beaten half to death it can't be rape, amirite?) and why judges will decide your jeans are so tight it wasn't rape.

Get them wimmins back in Hoop Skirts!

Afternoon, all. Ice and snow is gone. Going to, hit 60 today. About damn time.

48 Kragar  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:46:35am

re: #45 Lidane

Of course women cause rape. Just look at them, walking around in skin-tight jeans, or drinking alcohol, or wearing makeup, or daring to talk to or flirt with men. And heaven help her if she ever enjoyed sex in her life. That just proves she's a shameless whore who should be allowed to die.

/wingnut

They seek a man's vital essence.

49 Jimmah  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:46:39am

re: #34 Gus 802

Anti-women, anti-abortion, anti-AGW, anti-evolution, anti-gay, anti-science.

Mind boggling.

Their amygdylae must be in a state of chronic inflammation. If I didn't know better I'd think that being a wingnut was an actual disease.

50 Gus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:47:32am

re: #47 austin_blue

Get them wimmins back in Hoop Skirts!

Afternoon, all. Ice and snow is gone. Going to, hit 60 today. About damn time.

Pretty soon someone from the GOP will write up a bill calling for all unmarried women to wear chastity belts.

51 Kragar  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:48:19am

re: #50 Gus 802

Pretty soon someone from the GOP will write up a bill calling for all unmarried women to wear chastity belts.

Just call it birth control and they'll turn against it.

52 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:48:27am

re: #50 Gus 802

Pretty soon someone from the GOP will write up a bill calling for all unmarried women to wear chastity belts.

Nah. Then they wouldn't be able to get off on punishing the women after they've sinned. That's what obviously really gets them going.

53 Gus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:49:00am

re: #49 Jimmah

Their amygdylae must be in a state of chronic inflammation. If I didn't know better I'd think that being a wingnut was an actual disease.

Wingnut telethon for a cure?

/

54 iceweasel  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:49:16am

re: #50 Gus 802

Pretty soon someone from the GOP will write up a bill calling for all unmarried women to wear chastity belts.

I'm surprised that weird quiverful movement doesn't do that. Purity balls and rings are creepy enough. *shudder*

55 What, me worry?  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:49:37am

re: #19 iceweasel

re: #20 Jimmah

Hey hey! Just about to totter off, but wanted to give some (((hugs)))). Hope you guys are doing well!

56 Lidane  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:49:45am

re: #50 Gus 802

Pretty soon someone from the GOP will write up a bill calling for all unmarried women to wear chastity belts.

Or better yet, they'll propose modesty laws, where women should cover up their bodies in body-length veils so as not to tempt the men around them into rape. =P

57 iceweasel  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:50:19am

re: #55 marjoriemoon

re: #20 Jimmah

Hey hey! Just about to totter off, but wanted to give some (((hugs))). Hope you guys are doing well!

hey you! did you change your email to gmail? I got a weird email....

58 Kragar  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:50:43am

re: #54 iceweasel

I'm surprised that weird quiverful movement doesn't do that. Purity balls and rings are creepy enough. *shudder*

Of course, they reason saddlebacking does not affect ones purity.

59 Jimmah  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:50:59am

re: #39 Stanley Sea

Nice to see you Ice & Jimmah! How's the nest?

Hi stanley! Shaping up nicely thank you. We were thinking of you when we took this pic in Glasgow a few weeks ago -

Image: seagullgeosq.jpg

60 RadicalModerate  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:51:01am

re: #47 austin_blue

Get them wimmins back in Hoop Skirts!

Afternoon, all. Ice and snow is gone. Going to, hit 60 today. About damn time.

Yeah, its finally gotten above freezing for the first time in 4 days here in Dallas too. This after the "dusting" of snow we were supposed to get yesterday turned into almost seven inches. And we're supposed to get a repeat performance midweek next week.

61 Gus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:51:11am

re: #56 Lidane

Or better yet, they'll propose modesty laws, where women should cover up their bodies in body-length veils so as not to tempt the men around them into rape. =P

Wasn't it DeMint who said that single mothers shouldn't be teachers?

Ah yes. Here it is.

Just think. Rand Paul recently said that he plans on being more "conservative" than DeMint.

62 Stanghazi  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:52:14am

re: #59 Jimmah

Hi stanley! Shaping up nicely thank you. We were thinking of you when we took this pic in Glasgow a few weeks ago -

Image: seagullgeosq.jpg

LOVE IT! My famile is everywhere.

63 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:53:39am

The stupid virus is really getting around GOP circles.

Political quarantine may be in order.

64 austin_blue  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:53:50am

re: #59 Jimmah

Hi stanley! Shaping up nicely thank you. We were thinking of you when we took this pic in Glasgow a few weeks ago -

Image: seagullgeosq.jpg

Isn't that statue just south of the Willow Tea Room?

65 Gus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:55:10am

re: #63 researchok

The stupid virus is really getting around GOP circles.

Political quarantine may be in order.

The virus is clearly evolving. It causes the inflammation of the amygdylae. It comes with a variety of associated symptoms.

/

66 Jimmah  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:55:55am

re: #53 Gus 802

Wingnut telethon for a cure?

/

LOL I think Billo should host, and they should definitely do it live:

67 Lidane  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:56:00am

re: #63 researchok

The stupid virus is really getting around GOP circles.

Political quarantine may be in order.

It's a consequence of catering to the teabaggers and the lunatics in order to win elections. Eventually those reactionary assholes want their views codified into law.

68 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:57:57am

re: #67 Lidane

I think a lot of conservatives told themselves that they'd take the votes the reactionary votes got them, and they'd deal with them later. They studiously avoided forcing themselves to think about how they'd manage to get them out of the party, how they'd deal with them. Around election time, a lot of otherwise decent conservatives chose to ignore the ugliness, or create false equivalences, to allow themselves to continue supporting the GOP.

69 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:59:29am

re: #65 Gus 802

The virus is clearly evolving. It causes the inflammation of the amygdylae. It comes with a variety of associated symptoms.

/

It's like they are committing Seppuku.

Imagine being a martyr to stupid, anti science, climate denial, and religious intolerance- and all the while claiming to stand for 'values'.

Somebody needs to beat the shit out of them and then beat some sense into them.

70 Gus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:59:46am

re: #66 Jimmah

LOL I think Billo should host, and they should definitely do it live:

[Video]

Wingnuttery: there is a cure. We can do marathons, t-shirts, coffee cups, posters, etc.

/

71 sagehen  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 10:59:59am

re: #23 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

But those are godless heathens who follow myths hundreds of years old, while their myths are a few thousand years older and come slightly more north and west while still being from the same general region.

Surely you can see the differences?

no no no. The difference is that the Muslim fundie wackos' beards are long bits of facial hair; the Christian fundie wackos' beards are called Mrs Haggard, Mrs Rekers, or Mrs Whoever's-Next-To-Be-Found-Out.

72 SpaceJesus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:01:26am

re: #63 researchok


agreed. round up all republicans, lock them in libraries.

73 Gus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:01:29am

re: #71 sagehen

no no no. The difference is that the Muslim fundie wackos' beards are long bits of facial hair; the Christian fundie wackos' beards are called Mrs Haggard, Mrs Rekers, or Mrs Whoever's-Next-To-Be-Found-Out.

I thought the difference was "exceptionalism" and mayonnaise. Lots of mayonnaise.

//

74 Jimmah  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:01:39am

re: #64 austin_blue

Isn't that statue just south of the Willow Tea Room?

Yep - t's at George Square, south east of the Willow Tea Rooms, within easy walking distance.

75 Gus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:02:36am

Hmmm. Maybe mayonnaise causes inflammation of the nucleus amygdalæ. I must call the laboratory at once!

/

76 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:03:41am

re: #72 SpaceJesus

agreed. round up all republicans, lock them in libraries.

WRONG.

Lock them in kindergartens.

There are some things you can't fix.

You just start over.

The Dems had to do it in the 70's to clean house- and they bit the bullet and did.

Now the GOP has to do the same.

77 calochortus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:03:56am

So much of the abortion problem could be solved if the wingnuts would fund research into fetal transplants. Preferably transplants into all those men who find only fetal life to be sacred.
Think of the joy they would find in morning sickness, in the utter exhaustion that can come with the fetus sucking as much nutrition out of one as it can get away with, and the honor society heaps on the pregnant as they perpetuate life.//

78 austin_blue  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:03:56am

re: #74 Jimmah

Yep - t's at George Square, south east of the Willow Tea Rooms, within easy walking distance.

Love that place Charles Rennie Mackintosh was a genius.

79 iceweasel  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:04:16am

re: #72 SpaceJesus

agreed. round up all republicans, lock them in libraries.

Depends on the school board running the library....

80 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:05:24am

Better Off Without a Reagan Presidency?
His simple-mindedness had a touch of genius to it.
By Christopher Hitchens

81 Gus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:05:51am

Some say the cause is liverwurst on Wonder Bread™ with a heavy dollop of Miracle Whip™.

/

82 iceweasel  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:06:13am

re: #75 Gus 802

Hmmm. Maybe mayonnaise causes inflammation of the nucleus amygdalæ. I must call the laboratory at once!

/

Quick! to the lab!

83 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:06:48am

re: #59 Jimmah

Hi stanley! Shaping up nicely thank you. We were thinking of you when we took this pic in Glasgow a few weeks ago -

Image: seagullgeosq.jpg

Such a noble, gray-haired gentleman.

Wait, what?

84 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:06:48am

re: #81 Gus 802

Some say the cause is liverwurst on Wonder Bread™ with a heavy dollop of Miracle Whip™.

/

There is a special place in hell for people who eat that.

85 Gus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:07:09am

re: #82 iceweasel

Quick! to the lab!

Make it so! There's also another possibility: Cheetos!

86 iceweasel  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:07:41am

re: #81 Gus 802

Some say the cause is liverwurst on Wonder Bread™ with a heavy dollop of Miracle Whip™.

/

I always love that moment in Annie Hall where she orders pastrami on white bread with mayo. :)

87 Gus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:08:28am

re: #86 iceweasel

I always love that moment in Annie Hall where she orders pastrami on white bread with mayo. :)

The thought of mayo with liverwurst makes me cringe.

88 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:08:48am

re: #86 iceweasel

I always love that moment in Annie Hall where she orders pastrami on white bread with mayo. :)

She was a democrat, you know.
//

89 iceweasel  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:09:41am

re: #87 Gus 802

The thought of mayo with liverwurst makes me cringe.

me too. Then again, I havent eaten liverwurst since I was about 6, I think. I think I miss it? Probably couldn't get it here.

90 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:10:06am

re: #87 Gus 802

The thought of mayo with liverwurst makes me cringe.

Those were a Hitler favorite.
/

91 Jimmah  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:10:27am

re: #83 Sergey Romanov

Such a noble, gray-haired gentleman.

Wait, what?

Every statue in George Square has 'grey hair' :)

92 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:10:57am

re: #89 iceweasel

me too. Then again, I havent eaten liverwurst since I was about 6, I think. I think I miss it? Probably couldn't get it here.

Not since 6?

That redeemed you.

Sort of.
/

93 Gus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:11:01am

re: #89 iceweasel

me too. Then again, I havent eaten liverwurst since I was about 6, I think. I think I miss it? Probably couldn't get it here.

For a while there I was getting some braunschweiger from Safeway. I like it but it sure is "heavy".

94 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:12:03am

re: #93 Gus 802

For a while there I was getting some braunschweiger from Safeway. I like it but it sure is "heavy".

Go ahead. dig a deeper hole.
/

95 iceweasel  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:12:39am

re: #93 Gus 802

For a while there I was getting some braunschweiger from Safeway. I like it but it sure is "heavy".

What is it? There's a real dearth of sausage stuff here, except for one or two 'british' kinds.

96 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:13:35am

re: #95 iceweasel

What is it? There's a real dearth of sausage stuff here, except for one or two 'british' kinds.

Bangers for breakfast.

Food of the angels.

97 Gus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:13:46am

re: #95 iceweasel

What is it? There's a real dearth of sausage stuff here, except for one or two 'british' kinds.

Pork liver sausage but without the casing.

98 ihateronpaul  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:14:36am

lol I wonder what my republican friend will say now

99 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:15:03am

re: #97 Gus 802

Pork liver sausage but without the casing.

Clearly, you are a candidate for rehab.

Inpatient.
/

100 Jimmah  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:15:59am

re: #78 austin_blue

Love that place Charles Rennie Mackintosh was a genius.

Totally agree. I love that whole movement in European art. Be sure to check out some of the work of the Glasgow Boys at the Kelvingrove next time you're here (if you haven't already!).

101 Gus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:16:05am

re: #99 researchok

Clearly, you are a candidate for rehab.

Inpatient.
/

Now that I've revealed all of my health secrets?

102 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:17:00am

re: #101 Gus 802

Now that I've revealed all of my health secrets?

The Gus Longevity Diet.

Maybe you could cut a deal with Jenny Craig.

103 austin_blue  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:18:05am

re: #96 researchok

Bangers for breakfast.

Food of the angels.

Ah, bangers! Little tubes of unspiced gristle and fat, finely minced. The centerpiece of a solid english breakfast, along with eggs, baked beans, a broiled 1/2 to-mah-to, and a rasher of bacon. And tea. And toast.

104 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:18:45am

re: #103 austin_blue

Ah, bangers! Little tubes of unspiced gristle and fat, finely minced. The centerpiece of a solid english breakfast, along with eggs, baked beans, a broiled 1/2 to-mah-to, and a rasher of bacon. And tea. And toast.

Fine dining at it's best.

105 Jimmah  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:20:04am

Roast chicken is nearly ready. See you guys later :)

106 austin_blue  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:20:30am

re: #100 Jimmah

Totally agree. I love that whole movement in European art. Be sure to check out some of the work of the Glasgow Boys at the Kelvingrove next time you're here (if you haven't already!).

I surely will.

107 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:21:51am

Egypt's opposition parties fracture as talks with government begin

The united front among Egyptian opposition parties fractured Saturday as several of them began negotiating with Vice President Omar Suleiman, despite earlier promises that they would not agree to talks until President Hosni Mubarak stepped down.

Meanwhile, state television reported that the top leadership of the ruling National Democratic Party, including the president's son, Gamal Mubarak, and the party secretary general, Safwat el-Sharif, had resigned Saturday. Hossam Badrawy, a physician and reformist, was named the new secretary general and also given Gamal Mubarak's former post as policy chief.

108 Gus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:23:44am

Only had bangers and mash at some bar (pub) in Denver. Seemed like they used canned potatoes although I could be wrong. I prefer Italian sausage.

109 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:24:14am

Thinking of doing a post addressing the long list of smears and outright lies posted as a comment in my TPM article.

[Link: tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

I know that I can't really say anything to change the minds of the people who obsessively post these things, but maybe I should have a post that I can link to when they do it again. On the other hand, dignifying the distortions with a reply might give them more respect than they deserve.

Maybe I'll do some coding instead.

110 austin_blue  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:25:46am

And the last-place Wolves just gave top-of-the-table Man U their first loss of the season.

111 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:25:52am

re: #109 Charles

The upside is that reasonable people otherwise not knowing about all the issues will have more information at their disposal. The downside is that there will be a response to the response, etc.

112 Lidane  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:26:45am

re: #87 Gus 802

The thought of liverwurst makes me cringe.

FTFY

113 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:27:32am

re: #109 Charles

It's an endless problem, and I have no idea what the solution is. They're obviously inexhaustible, not constrained by reality, and shameless.

They defend genocide. I don't think anything else can be done about people who are comfortable with that.

They're not different than Stormfront, to me.

114 Gus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:28:57am

re: #109 Charles

Thinking of doing a post addressing the long list of smears and outright lies posted as a comment in my TPM article.

[Link: tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

I know that I can't really say anything to change the minds of the people who obsessively post these things, but maybe I should have a post that I can link to when they do it again. On the other hand, dignifying the distortions with a reply might give them more respect than they deserve.

Maybe I'll do some coding instead.

Psychos. Took a peek and all I can say is that Obdicut has an IQ 100 times that of that moron "Wristaction" -- who also happens to be seriously disturbed "primary stalker". The majority of those nuts don't even fit in with the TPM readers and they all registered just to yet again display their obsession with you. Must like they did at The Guardian.

115 Gus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:29:29am

re: #114 Gus 802

Psychos. Took a peek and all I can say is that Obdicut has an IQ 100 times that of that moron "Wristaction" -- who also happens to be seriously disturbed "primary stalker". The majority of those nuts don't even fit in with the TPM readers and they all registered just to yet again display their obsession with you. Must like they did at The Guardian.

Must Much like they did at The Guardian

116 Lidane  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:29:56am

re: #113 Obdicut

They defend genocide. I don't think anything else can be done about people who are comfortable with that.

I've never been able to wrap my head around that. WTF? Why defend or minimize genocide? It makes no sense.

117 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:31:26am

Anyone with any sense or substance at all will ignore the fracas.

I have yet to see PJM's VDH for example, playing in the dirt. He and CJ are political polar opposites but I haven't seen him getting involved.

Am I wrong on that?

118 Gus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:32:58am

re: #109 Charles

Thinking of doing a post addressing the long list of smears and outright lies posted as a comment in my TPM article.

[Link: tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

I know that I can't really say anything to change the minds of the people who obsessively post these things, but maybe I should have a post that I can link to when they do it again. On the other hand, dignifying the distortions with a reply might give them more respect than they deserve.

Maybe I'll do some coding instead.

Otherwise I think coding sounds like a better plan.

119 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:34:29am

re: #114 Gus 802

It's really weird because, obviously, Charles isn't above or beyond criticism. Yet almost every person who engages in it can't leave well enough alone, they can't stick to accurate criticisms, but instead have to fabricate and lie in order to do it. They need to claim Charles has never admitted being wrong about anything, or make insane comparisons, or engage in the bizarre homophobic and sexual fantasy/insults.

It is truly bizarre.

120 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:36:40am

re: #119 Obdicut

The "Geller" claim is perhaps the most bizarre.

121 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:37:52am

re: #117 researchok

Anyone with any sense or substance at all will ignore the fracas.

I have yet to see PJM's VDH for example, playing in the dirt. He and CJ are political polar opposites but I haven't seen him getting involved.

Am I wrong on that?

He chimed in more than a year ago that he wouldn't side against Charles for "parting with the right", but VDH has been going off the rails himself since then. I doubt he'd show any support now.

122 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:37:55am

re: #119 Obdicut

It's really weird because, obviously, Charles isn't above or beyond criticism. Yet almost every person who engages in it can't leave well enough alone, they can't stick to accurate criticisms, but instead have to fabricate and lie in order to do it. They need to claim Charles has never admitted being wrong about anything, or make insane comparisons, or engage in the bizarre homophobic and sexual fantasy/insults.

It is truly bizarre.

I have yet to see someone of real substance get involved in attacking CJ as the stalkers do. It's always personal and never substantive. Or, they just engage in patently fraudulent charges.

123 nines09  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:38:59am

We respect life. We endorse life. We choose life. That is why you must die. Perfect sense. What a compassionate bunch.

124 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:40:15am

re: #120 Sergey Romanov

The "Geller" claim is perhaps the most bizarre.

It's incredibly sleazy, and they know it. It shows you where they're coming from.

125 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:41:28am

re: #120 Sergey Romanov

I remember how sad I was the day when I realized that smart people could also be really stupid.

That's what reading that guy's comments reminded me of.

They also kind of remind of of that evil, evil, evil son of a bitch on the Axis History forums, the very careful denier... I can't remember his name right now, except that it was similar to one of the mods. That guy made me so fucking angry and so depressed. That good a mind, and he chooses to use it for holocaust denial.

126 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:42:53am

re: #121 wrenchwench

He chimed in more than a year ago that he wouldn't side against Charles for "parting with the right", but VDH has been going off the rails himself since then. I doubt he'd show any support now.

I don't know if it's necessarily about support, per se.

I just don't see him attacking CJ in a non substantive way, no matter his politics.

About VDH, I will say this: As of late he reminds me of Barry Rubin- A really smart guy who let an agenda take priority (more so with Rubin)

Which is a real pity because agree or not, these guys are worth listening to. Since the Egypt thing began, Rubin has been pretty much on point. It's a pity he squandered so much political credibility.

127 Gus  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:43:53am

Time to go to the store and then get to work. BBL

128 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:44:19am

re: #125 Obdicut

Michael Mills (similar to Michael Miller)? Yeah, he was advising David Irving during the trial (he's a semi-denier in that he accepts most gas chambers, while denying that it was about Jews (rather than runaway euthanasia or some other sort of wild hypothesis), but he makes up for it in naked antisemitism).

129 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:48:40am

Here's one note on those charges, specifically that I am an anti-Latino racist (which would come as a great surprise to all the Hispanic musicians I've worked with); I wrote a comment in 2009, addressing my earlier posts about the National Council of La Raza -- which I now realize were mistaken, because I had equated La Raza Unida (a truly radical group) with NCLR, and because my personal experience of La Raza in the 60s and 70s had convinced me they were a radical separatist group. I've since learned better.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

If I were to post those articles again, I'd be a little more careful with how I describe the National Council of La Raza. I've learned a lot more about them since then.

When the group started, they did have ties to shady causes and some pretty incendiary political positions, but the modern version of NCLR has become a pretty moderate organization, and you don't find their representatives espousing "Aztlan" or Hispanic supremacist positions any more. In fact they're a 501(c)(3) organization now, with funding from major corporations like Walmart and Citigroup, who aren't known for being involved with extremist groups.

And by the way, they deny that "La Raza" means "The Race." According to their website, it means "The People," and was originally "La Raza Cosmica," signifying all the different Latino strains.

Are they hiding their extremism? I don't know, but from the evidence I can see, they seem to have changed quite a bit from their founding years in the 1960s.

130 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:48:54am

re: #128 Sergey Romanov

Yes, that fucker. So meticulous, such an endless outpouring of energy, and all after such a sick goal. As a Jew, I feel that he was more the face of the Nazis than the thugs in the EDL sig-heiling. He was the type of intelligence and twisted spirit necessary to actually make it happen.

131 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:50:04am

re: #130 Obdicut

Yes, that fucker. So meticulous, such an endless outpouring of energy, and all after such a sick goal. As a Jew, I feel that he was more the face of the Nazis than the thugs in the EDL sig-heiling. He was the type of intelligence and twisted spirit necessary to actually make it happen.

He always seems to say, "yeah, some of it happened; so what, they deserved it for Judeo-Bolshevism".

132 charlz  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:50:57am

In other news:
Arrested Development Movie: Coming in 2011 Says Mitch Hurwitz!!! Wow, this had been written off at one point, but it looks like it's really happening.

133 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:51:06am

re: #129 Charles

You're being accused of racism by a guy who celebrates the massacre and forced conversion of Muslims and Jews in Spain, someone who celebrates the massacre of Muslims by Serbs.

I wouldn't worry about it.

134 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:51:11am

re: #129 Charles

Here's one note on those charges, specifically that I am an anti-Latino racist (which would come as a great surprise to all the Hispanic musicians I've worked with); I wrote a comment in 2009, addressing my earlier posts about the National Council of La Raza -- which I now realize were mistaken, because I had equated La Raza Unida (a truly radical group) with NCLR, and because my personal experience of La Raza in the 60s and 70s had convinced me they were a radical separatist group. I've since learned better.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Yup

CJ evolves, refines, etc and they do not- and are damned proud of it.

Speaks volumes and explains a whole lot of things.

135 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:51:55am

re: #126 researchok

I don't know if it's necessarily about support, per se.

I just don't see him attacking CJ in a non substantive way, no matter his politics.

About VDH, I will say this: As of late he reminds me of Barry Rubin- A really smart guy who let an agenda take priority (more so with Rubin)

Which is a real pity because agree or not, these guys are worth listening to. Since the Egypt thing began, Rubin has been pretty much on point. It's a pity he squandered so much political credibility.

I never read Barry Rubin's stuff, but I have read VDH. He's smart, and he has a vast knowledge of at least one topic (classic history), but when I read "Mexifornia" in about 2004, I thought he was a bit glib, and not entirely factual. I think he's really found his element in lecturing on those wingnut cruises.

136 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:52:20am

re: #129 Charles

I think "Raza", the false friend of a translator, has led quite a lot folks astray on this issue since it is so obviously associated with "race" in English-speakers' minds.

137 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:53:36am

re: #133 Obdicut

You're being accused of racism by a guy who celebrates the massacre and forced conversion of Muslims and Jews in Spain, someone who celebrates the massacre of Muslims by Serbs.

I wouldn't worry about it.

The "wristaction" loon is not the same as "Rodan" (aka Rick Martinez). He seems to be a lefty stalker; he's the one who posts as "jummy" at other sites.

138 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:55:56am

Wow... this is wrong on so many levels that I don't even know where to start...

139 charlz  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:56:55am

re: #134 researchok

CJ evolves, refines, etc and they do not- and are damned proud of it.

What amazes me is the apparent belief that a position stated in (say) 2003 can't be nuanced, altered or even discarded since then, else it's evidence of derangement.

140 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:57:02am

re: #135 wrenchwench

I never read Barry Rubin's stuff, but I have read VDH. He's smart, and he has a vast knowledge of at least one topic (classic history), but when I read "Mexifornia" in about 2004, I thought he was a bit glib, and not entirely factual. I think he's really found his element in lecturing on those wingnut cruises.

I believe the guy is brilliant. I also believe the guy is erratic in the sense that if you are a historian you ought to know it might be better to take a longer view, That's my beef (such as it is) with him.

I don't take issue with his observations or assessments= however, they are snapshots, a single moment in time and with less regard for context.

Sometimes (whether you agree with him or not), when he writes on contemporary issues, the snapshots I mentioned, I believe he'd make a better journalist than analyst.

141 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:59:47am

re: #130 Obdicut

This brings a memory. Last year he accused Lev Mekhlis of being behind the Katyn massacre (because of ethnic bias). I called him out on his antisemitic claim, since Mekhlis didn't have any direct relation to the massacre whatsoever.

Then I found this:
[Link: webcache.googleusercontent.com...]

142 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 11:59:52am

re: #137 Charles

Oh, he's also calling you anti-Latino? Sorry, I missed that part of his screed. It all kind of blends together into you being the worst person in the world.

Mixing up NCLR and LRU was depressingly common a few years ago. I was on FARK, then. I think LRU was perfectly happy with the mix-up, NCLR less so. I'm glad that during Sotomayor's confirmation hearings you caught your mistake and corrected it.

Gee, it's almost like you made a mistake and admitted it. Yet that can't have happened, right?

143 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:00:16pm

re: #138 jamesfirecat

Wow... this is wrong on so many levels that I don't even know where to start...

I can't imagine that there are any hospitals or more than two or three doctors who would like to work under the proposed rules.

144 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:04:15pm

re: #141 Sergey Romanov

Oh boy. And look at this:

The entry on Jewish Persecution blames every piece of persecution on Catholics.

[Link: www.conservapedia.com...]

Including the Nazis.

Motherfuckers.

What complete motherfuckers.

Do they think they're being subtle?

145 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:04:26pm

re: #143 wrenchwench

I can't imagine that there are any hospitals or more than two or three doctors who would like to work under the proposed rules.

Anyone who would be happy to sit back and watch as a woman dies due to a malformed child in her womb doesn't deserve to be a doctor.

The people who in back allies were practicing abortions with not always sterile equipment before Roe V Wade were "doctors" in truer sense than those people because at least those back alley "surgeons" were trying to help the people who came to them in suffering.

146 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:04:42pm

Gah, sorry, Charles, I directly linked to Conservapedia. Feel free to delete, I can reproduce the comment with a webcache.

147 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:05:48pm

re: #146 Obdicut

Gah, sorry, Charles, I directly linked to Conservapedia. Feel free to delete, I can reproduce the comment with a webcache.

That's OK, I love Conservapedia. One of the funniest right wing sites on the web.

148 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:05:57pm

re: #129 Charles

By the way, your succinct explanation is why there might be another upside to write the piece if you so decide - not for the stalkers, but to debunk these memes that still have currency elsewhere.

149 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:06:44pm

re: #147 Charles

That's OK, I love Conservapedia. One of the funniest right wing sites on the web.

Are we even sure it's "right wing" anymore? I thought it was basically one right win guy in charge, and a site full of people trying to out Stephen Colbert, Stephen Colbert....

150 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:07:01pm

Conservatism: bad for America, bad for Americans, especially bad for American women.

151 Lidane  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:08:51pm

re: #150 eclectic infidel

The sad thing is, this isn't even conservatism. It's religious fanaticism and misogyny being given the cover of conservatism because the GOP are too chickenshit to tell the American Taliban types to fuck off and get out of the party.

152 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:10:22pm

re: #151 Lidane

The sad thing is, this isn't even conservatism. It's religious fanaticism and misogyny being given the cover of conservatism because the GOP are too chickenshit to tell the American Taliban types to fuck off and get out of the party.

Thank you for that.

I lean to the right and these guys are no one I would associate with.

Ever.

153 webevintage  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:11:03pm

re: #132 charlz

In other news:
Arrested Development Movie: Coming in 2011 Says Mitch Hurwitz!!! Wow, this had been written off at one point, but it looks like it's really happening.

HUZZAH!

154 Lidane  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:11:25pm

re: #152 researchok

Thank you for that.

I lean to the right and these guys are no one I would associate with.

Ever.

I lean left and there are plenty of loons I wouldn't want to associate with. I know the feeling.

155 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:12:23pm

re: #139 charlz

What amazes me is the apparent belief that a position stated in (say) 2003 can't be nuanced, altered or even discarded since then, else it's evidence of derangement.

Changing your mind, even based on facts, is disloyalty to the team. As we have seen, it's not about philosophies, truths, facts, or finding the best solutions, it's about taking sides, believing in your team, and hating the other team.

Team loyalty has a place. That place is not to fly in the face of facts, or to ignore the realities around you.

156 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:13:23pm

You know lizards, I was in a real good mood until I read this BS. I had a nice morning, fresh coffee, eggs, and did my weekly grocery shopping all before noon. I'm still going to walk down a couple blocks and take myself out for fresh Lao-Thai cuisine at Champa Garden, but now I'm really angry.

157 sagehen  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:14:25pm

re: #139 charlz

What amazes me is the apparent belief that a position stated in (say) 2003 can't be nuanced, altered or even discarded since then, else it's evidence of derangement.

The belief at Kos is that on 9/11 Charles lost his mind, that since then he's been putting it back together one marble at a time, and it took eight years to get enough of it back to be noticeable.

158 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:14:26pm

Well I have a question to everyone -

regardless of the particulars of the amendment to this bill which is the subject of the post, the original bill was intended to make it so that a person or institution that has a conscientious objection to performing a abortions are not compelled to do so if they receive federal funds.

There still are a few charity hospitals that the catholic church operates in this country, and they accept federal payments because they are often the ones saddled with indigent care. Many run at a loss because medicaid doesn't cover full costs, but they are charity hospitals (though far fewer exist than did 30 years ago).

So - should an individual be compelled by the power of the state to perform an action which that person has a religious objection to and is an act that, as they see it, would condemn them to an eternity in hell?

We used to have posts here about Somali taxi drivers that would refuse passengers who had seeing eye dogs or were carrying alcohol. Is this a similar situation? Or is it more akin to Orthodox Jews who won't work on sabbath? Or Muslims in the food industry that refuse to handle food products like pork?

For those who see this as a matter of conscience, is their some room to allow them free exercise, or is this a matter where the state makes no accommodation.

159 bratwurst  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:14:29pm

re: #154 Lidane

I lean left and there are plenty of loons I wouldn't want to associate with. I know the feeling.

I agree...and am proud to say that that none of the loons I wouldn't want to associate with have been elected to anything much more important than dog catcher.

160 engineer cat  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:14:53pm

Sarah Palin opened a celebration of Ronald Reagan this weekend by declaring that the United States was lurching toward a “road to ruin,”

that's the positive vision of a strong, vibrant america that ronald reagan was famous for!
///

the bag party seems determined to cede the uplifting, hopeful rhetoric to the democratic party this election cycle

161 Lidane  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:14:58pm

re: #156 eclectic infidel

Loud, angry music helps to get the rage out. After that, some good herbal tea, grocery shopping for the Super Bowl tomorrow, and enjoying the rest of the day is a plan. Or maybe that's just me. :D

162 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:15:25pm

re: #156 eclectic infidel

You know lizards, I was in a real good mood until I read this BS. I had a nice morning, fresh coffee, eggs, and did my weekly grocery shopping all before noon. I'm still going to walk down a couple blocks and take myself out for fresh Lao-Thai cuisine at Champa Garden, but now I'm really angry.

Take it easy and enjoy the day.

If stupid makes you upset, you'll never be happy!

163 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:15:42pm

re: #151 Lidane

The sad thing is, this isn't even conservatism. It's religious fanaticism and misogyny being given the cover of conservatism because the GOP are too chickenshit to tell the American Taliban types to fuck off and get out of the party.

That's because "American Conservatism" is more or less dead.

As a mainstream cause Conservatism for Conservatism's sake in America, wouldn't have a chance of winning a presidential election.

However when the still twitching corpse of American Conservatism is animated by the plague of Theological Rule... it can make that dead body limp about and win a few more elections.

Only when the two work in tandem do they have a choice.

An actual "conservative" Candidate without the support of the Socons has no chance in a state wide race (see John McCain 2008), and in turn an actual Socon candidate without any conservative layer of plausible deniability (see Sarah Palin 2012 god willing) has no chance in a national election.

The problem is that because the Socons are energized and the real conservatives take poorly to change, the later doesn't realize/doesn't want to admit/ doesn't want to take action over the issue the former has stolen their party right out from under them.

164 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:16:13pm

re: #132 charlz

In other news:
Arrested Development Movie: Coming in 2011 Says Mitch Hurwitz!!! Wow, this had been written off at one point, but it looks like it's really happening.

TOOK THEM BLOODY LONG ENOUGH!

165 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:16:38pm

re: #158 karmic_inquisitor

PIMF all over that ...

166 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:16:44pm

re: #151 Lidane

Maybe, maybe not. For as far back as I can remember (granted, I was born in the late 60s), the GOP has always been about controlling a woman's body. Maybe the far-right crazies have taken control of the Republican nut house, or perhaps the current GOP leadership and rank and file monkeys actually like the change in scenery. It would be nice...really nice to see some Republicans speak out against this.

167 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:17:17pm

re: #158 karmic_inquisitor

So - should an individual be compelled by the power of the state to perform an action which that person has a religious objection to and is an act that, as they see it, would condemn them to an eternity in hell?

Yep.

If it means that if they don't, someone can die, then yes.

Death is a very real thing.

168 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:17:36pm

For those paying attention (otherwise ignore it): why is it so many douchebags and Nazis (the latter I'm judging by Russian LiveJournal userpics) have this love of wolf imagery? Do they imagine themselves as these big bad wolves?

169 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:17:53pm

re: #162 researchok

Take it easy and enjoy the day.

If stupid makes you upset, you'll never be happy!

I can handle stupid. Thing is, this whole thing strikes me as evil.

170 engineer cat  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:18:15pm

re: #158 karmic_inquisitor

should an individual be compelled by the power of the state to perform an action which that person has a religious objection to

a physician who stops to have a religious objection that gets in the way of them saving somebody's life has no business in the medical profession

171 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:18:55pm

re: #163 jamesfirecat

That's because "American Conservatism" is more or less dead.

As a mainstream cause Conservatism for Conservatism's sake in America, wouldn't have a chance of winning a presidential election.

However when the still twitching corpse of American Conservatism is animated by the plague of Theological Rule... it can make that dead body limp about and win a few more elections.

Only when the two work in tandem do they have a choice.

An actual "conservative" Candidate without the support of the Socons has no chance in a state wide race (see John McCain 2008), and in turn an actual Socon candidate without any conservative layer of plausible deniability (see Sarah Palin 2012 god willing) has no chance in a national election.

The problem is that because the Socons are energized and the real conservatives take poorly to change, the later doesn't realize/doesn't want to admit/ doesn't want to take action over the issue the former has stolen their party right out from under them.

Lots if truth in there.

I will only differ in that I believe there will be an awakening and house cleaning sooner rather than later.

There will be a new, more sane and more relevant version of conservationism.

172 Lidane  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:19:00pm

re: #157 sagehen

The belief at Kos is that on 9/11 Charles lost his mind, that since then he's been putting it back together one marble at a time, and it took eight years to get enough of it back to be noticeable.

Pretty much. I've had people tell me that Charles was a quasi-hippie that flipped his shit over 9/11 then spent a few years coming back to sanity. I haven't been here long enough to know how true that is, but whatever. If it annoys the reactionary nutballs and stalkers on the far right and confuses the far left, then he's doing something right. Heh.

173 recusancy  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:19:09pm

re: #158 karmic_inquisitor

Nobody's going to have a life changing experience by having a child they don't want and that may threaten their life if they don't get pork.

174 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:20:10pm

re: #171 researchok

Lots if truth in there.

I will only differ in that I believe there will be an awakening and house cleaning sooner rather than later.

There will be a new, more sane and more relevant version of conservationism.

If that came true the Democrats will need to run genuine liberals to get people to vote for them.

Win win if it actually happens!

175 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:20:37pm

re: #169 eclectic infidel

I can handle stupid. Thing is, this whole thing strikes me as evil.

Naw, it's just stupid.

As some mentioned earlier, no way hospitals will go along along with this stupidity and most doctors will be offended by the suggestions.

176 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:20:38pm

re: #171 researchok

Lots if truth in there.

I will only differ in that I believe there will be an awakening and house cleaning sooner rather than later.

There will be a new, more sane and more relevant version of conservationism.

How? How is this going to happen?

177 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:20:50pm

re: #174 jamesfirecat

If that came true the Democrats will need to run genuine liberals to get people to vote for them.

Win win if it actually happens!

LOLOL

178 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:21:13pm

re: #158 karmic_inquisitor

There still are a few charity hospitals that the catholic church operates in this country, and they accept federal payments because they are often the ones saddled with indigent care. Many run at a loss because medicaid doesn't cover full costs, but they are charity hospitals (though far fewer exist than did 30 years ago).

So - should an individual be compelled by the power of the state to perform an action which that person has a religious objection to and is an act that, as they see it, would condemn them to an eternity in hell?

I know someone who had an abortion in a Catholic hospital, because she would have died without it. I don't know which religious sects are to the right of them, but I don't think any belief system that lets a woman die who can be saved, just because there's a fetus, embryo, or blastosphere involved, is worth acknowledging with a so-called "conscience" clause.

I don't know whether that opinion is constitutional or logical or fair, but it's well-considered and humanitarian.

179 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:21:52pm

re: #176 Obdicut

How? How is this going to happen?

Internaql, I believe.

Younger conservatives aren't necessarily towing the socon banner

180 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:22:10pm

Also, "wristaction" claims that I had my "own warblog space on david horowitz's frontpagemag website" ... that had nothing to do with me. Frontpage started reposting items from LGF, without ever asking permission. It kind of irritated me, to tell the truth.

181 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:23:06pm

Horowitz is known for grabbing content like that, by the way.

182 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:23:15pm

re: #176 Obdicut

How? How is this going to happen?

My prediction is that somewhere around 2050 the GOP will realize that running crazy people over and over again is a loosing strategy, and abandon ship.

The GOP will go the way of the wigs, the crazies will be kicked to the curb, and the blue dogs will start to cross over to this new party causing the Democratic party to become more liberal, and the overton window will have a glorious swing leftwards....

That's how it happens in my dream at least.

183 engineer cat  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:23:15pm

Ms. Palin said. “He refused to sit down and be silent as our liberties were eroded by an out-of-control centralized government that overtaxed and overreached in utter disregard of constitutional limits.”

so will she support a candidate who will repeal the stalinist "patriot" act and restore our fourth amendment rights?

184 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:23:33pm

re: #175 researchok

Naw, it's just stupid.

As some mentioned earlier, no way hospitals will go along along with this stupidity and most doctors will be offended by the suggestions.

I agree with you - and with a more level head now, I don't see many people, even conservatives, supporting this repugnant bill.

185 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:23:35pm

re: #178 wrenchwench

I know someone who had an abortion in a Catholic hospital, because she would have died without it. I don't know which religious sects are to the right of them, but I don't think any belief system that lets a woman die who can be saved, just because there's a fetus, embryo, or blastosphere involved, is worth acknowledging with a so-called "conscience" clause.

I don't know whether that opinion is constitutional or logical or fair, but it's well-considered and humanitarian.

All true.

I also believe a lot of this is 'feel good' legislation they know will never become law.

They just want to keep their evangelical bona fides.

186 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:23:55pm

re: #179 researchok

Internaql, I believe.

Younger conservatives aren't necessarily towing the socon banner

So it's going to take decades?

And unfortunately, on the abortion issue, the young Evangelicals are just as anti-abortion as their parents.

187 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:24:06pm

re: #167 Obdicut

Yep.

If it means that if they don't, someone can die, then yes.

Death is a very real thing.

Religion is very real too.

It tends to motivate people in ways that others don't understand. There are trade offs that they are willing to make and you aren't, and there are trade offs that they are unwilling to make that you are. For instance I have Mormons who work for me that won't work on a Sunday, even if it costs them their jobs. And I have Adventists that have the save rule for Saturdays. As an employer, I work around that.

Then there are Muslims who are imprisoned at Gitmo whose needs of conscience have been clearly articulated and accommodated.

So where is the bright line where conscience takes a back seat to policy?

188 recusancy  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:24:33pm

re: #182 jamesfirecat

My prediction is that somewhere around 2050 the GOP will realize that running crazy people over and over again is a loosing strategy, and abandon ship.

The GOP will go the way of the wigs, the crazies will be kicked to the curb, and the blue dogs will start to cross over to this new party causing the Democratic party to become more liberal, and the overton window will have a glorious swing leftwards...

That's how it happens in my dream at least.

White people will be below 50% of the population by then. The republican party has a very tenuous future.

189 sagehen  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:24:41pm

re: #158 karmic_inquisitor

Well I have a question to everyone -

regardless of the particulars of the amendment to this bill which is the subject of the post, the original bill was intended to make it so that a person or institution that has a conscientious objection to performing a abortions are not compelled to do so if they receive federal funds.

There still are a few charity hospitals that the catholic church operates in this country, and they accept federal payments because they are often the ones saddled with indigent care. Many run at a loss because medicaid doesn't cover full costs, but they are charity hospitals (though far fewer exist than did 30 years ago).

So - should an individual be compelled by the power of the state to perform an action which that person has a religious objection to and is an act that, as they see it, would condemn them to an eternity in hell?

We used to have posts here about Somali taxi drivers that would refuse passengers who had seeing eye dogs or were carrying alcohol. Is this a similar situation? Or is it more akin to Orthodox Jews who won't work on sabbath? Or Muslims in the food industry that refuse to handle food products like pork?

For those who see this as a matter of conscience, is their some room to allow them free exercise, or is this a matter where the state makes no accommodation.

Jehovah's witnesses have a religious objection to transfusions. How far are we going to take this?

Those Somali taxi drivers just have to get over themselves, like vegan supermarket checkout clerks who would lose their jobs if they refused to ring up your steaks. Orthodox Jews in emergency jobs do work on Sabbath, they just don't want to be scheduled for it outside of emergencies -- and since nobody works 7 days a week, it's not a problem for their employer to make that their day off. (okay, maybe it was a little problem to let Sandy Koufax skip a World Series Game that fell on Yom Kippur, but it's not like that's a situation that'll come up very often, and the team did have other pitchers).

"Reasonable accomodation" means reasonable, and letting women die because you're the only hospital within 30 miles and you just don't feel good about saving her is not reasonable.

190 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:25:07pm

re: #184 eclectic infidel

I agree with you - and with a more level head now, I don't see many people, even conservatives, supporting this repugnant bill.

It's morons like these who inspire a whole lot of eye rolling- and contempt for politicians.

As a rule, Americans are pretty centrist. It's the idiots who make the most noise.

191 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:25:46pm

re: #187 karmic_inquisitor

Religion is very real too.

And?

So where is the bright line where conscience takes a back seat to policy?

When death is on the line. Was I somehow unclear?

192 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:25:49pm

Another false claim is that I referred to Muslims as "[bigoted word]s."

This is completely untrue. In fact, I commented more than once that I did not like that term, and I deleted many comments that used it ... by some of the people who are now stalkers.

193 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:26:21pm

re: #189 sagehen

Ahh. The voice of reason. Thank you.

194 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:26:25pm

re: #171 researchok

Lots if truth in there.

I will only differ in that I believe there will be an awakening and house cleaning sooner rather than later.

There will be a new, more sane and more relevant version of conservationism.

It will not happen while Conservative cult media exists.

Too many voters who self-identify as conservative now belong to a political cult that has no interest in philosophy, governance, or the real world. While the American political system remains binary and winner-takes-all, these cultists retain disproportionate power, and thus cannot be marginalised. Keeping them angry and disconnected from reality is too powerful a business model to attempt otherwise - tone it down, clean house, become reasonable, and you lose these cultists.

This problem would be solved overnight with mandatory and/or preferential voting. Short of that or other wholesale changes in the US political system, however, only decades-long shifts in population dynamics will change the current model.

195 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:26:38pm

re: #191 Obdicut

Though I don't think it's a 'bright line', in that I think pharmacists should dispense anything that they're given a legal order to fulfill. But that's different than doctors.

196 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:27:05pm

Oh look! I forgot that I had the word in the filter, specifically to prevent it from appearing in one of those people's comments.

The word is "K o r a n i m a l."

197 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:27:19pm

re: #185 researchok

All true.

I also believe a lot of this is 'feel good' legislation they know will never become law.

They just want to keep their evangelical bona fides.

I think that's a dangerous belief. Dangerous to women. These proposals are having very real effects, even when they don't make it into law.

They are targeting the low hanging fruit. As always, the low hanging fruit is poor people.

198 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:27:24pm

re: #186 Obdicut

So it's going to take decades?

And unfortunately, on the abortion issue, the young Evangelicals are just as anti-abortion as their parents.

It will take a decade, for sure.

As for abortion, I'm not so sure. There are a whole lot of pro choice Republicans out there, reflected by the 'settled law' argument always put forward.

I for one would not vote for an anti choice candidate.

199 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:28:09pm

re: #191 Obdicut

And?

When death is on the line. Was I somehow unclear?

I thought that was when you weren't supposed to compete against Sicilians?

200 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:28:19pm

re: #170 engineer dog

a physician who stops to have a religious objection that gets in the way of them saving somebody's life has no business in the medical profession

I know a Jewish OB that refuses to do abortions. His religion allows it but he told me that he entered practice to bring lives into the world. His words. He also tells me that the "clear trade-off" between life of mother and life of child is rarely there - it is rare that both are healthy but one must go. more often, both lives are difficult to save and he tries to save both.

So a simple argument has been constructed here that reality would tend to erode. All forms of piety are easy from an armchair.

201 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:28:44pm

re: #184 eclectic infidel

I agree with you - and with a more level head now, I don't see many people, even conservatives, supporting this repugnant bill.

Except for the ones those "conservatives" elected of course. I've heard this odious piece of filth already has a hundred supporters in the house.

[Link: www.washingtonmonthly.com...]

202 sagehen  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:30:09pm

re: #182 jamesfirecat

My prediction is that somewhere around 2050 the GOP will realize that running crazy people over and over again is a loosing strategy, and abandon ship.

The GOP will go the way of the wigs, the crazies will be kicked to the curb, and the blue dogs will start to cross over to this new party causing the Democratic party to become more liberal, and the overton window will have a glorious swing leftwards...

That's how it happens in my dream at least.

It won't take that long -- the vast majority of the extremists are over 60, they won't be voting in very many more elections.

203 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:30:28pm

re: #197 wrenchwench

I think that's a dangerous belief. Dangerous to women. These proposals are having very real effects, even when they don't make it into law.

They are targeting the low hanging fruit. As always, the low hanging fruit is poor people.

True.

I just don't know how to accelerate the process to get rid of the old guard and usher in the more sane element.

204 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:31:01pm

re: #200 karmic_inquisitor

I know a Jewish OB that refuses to do abortions. His religion allows it but he told me that he entered practice to bring lives into the world. His words. He also tells me that the "clear trade-off" between life of mother and life of child is rarely there - it is rare that both are healthy but one must go. more often, both lives are difficult to save and he tries to save both.

So a simple argument has been constructed here that reality would tend to erode. All forms of piety are easy from an armchair.

Have you ever asked your rabbi friend does he believe the child has a right to use the mother's organs without her consent?

205 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:31:15pm

re: #200 karmic_inquisitor

I know a Jewish OB that refuses to do abortions. His religion allows it but he told me that he entered practice to bring lives into the world. His words. He also tells me that the "clear trade-off" between life of mother and life of child is rarely there - it is rare that both are healthy but one must go. more often, both lives are difficult to save and he tries to save both.

So a simple argument has been constructed here that reality would tend to erode. All forms of piety are easy from an armchair.

1% of pregnancies are in an ectopic location with implantation not occurring inside of the womb. Death to both or death to the embryo. One percent of pregnancies would be a lot of dead women.

206 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:31:38pm

re: #202 sagehen

It won't take that long -- the vast majority of the extremists are over 60, they won't be voting in very many more elections.

They will thanks to government run healthcare for the elderly....

207 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:32:28pm

re: #189 sagehen

Jehovah's witnesses have a religious objection to transfusions. How far are we going to take this?

...

"Reasonable accomodation" means reasonable, and letting women die because you're the only hospital within 30 miles and you just don't feel good about saving her is not reasonable.

Give me a doctor that is as cavalier as you characterized. Please.

But your question "how far are we going to take this" is a good one.

I am pro choice - it is a decision for the individual, not the state. For that same reason I don't think people with established religious objections to an act as existential as providing an abortion should be compelled by the state to perform it. Conscience cuts both ways.

208 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:32:42pm

re: #194 Renaissance_Man

It will not happen while Conservative cult media exists.

Too many voters who self-identify as conservative now belong to a political cult that has no interest in philosophy, governance, or the real world. While the American political system remains binary and winner-takes-all, these cultists retain disproportionate power, and thus cannot be marginalised. Keeping them angry and disconnected from reality is too powerful a business model to attempt otherwise - tone it down, clean house, become reasonable, and you lose these cultists.

This problem would be solved overnight with mandatory and/or preferential voting. Short of that or other wholesale changes in the US political system, however, only decades-long shifts in population dynamics will change the current model.

I don't believe there will be a change in voting rules anytime soon.

209 engineer cat  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:32:43pm

re: #168 Sergey Romanov

For those paying attention (otherwise ignore it): why is it so many douchebags and Nazis (the latter I'm judging by Russian LiveJournal userpics) have this love of wolf imagery? Do they imagine themselves as these big bad wolves?

the relentless insistence by the foaming at the mouth anti-idiotarian rottweiler that they are big bad growly macho dangerous guard dogs reeks to me of a lot of insecure people overcompensating for weakness and fear

210 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:33:10pm

re: #203 researchok

True.

I just don't know how to accelerate the process to get rid of the old guard and usher in the more sane element.

Stop voting Republican at all, or at least boycott any member of the GOP who is not only sane, but willing to call out "Sister Sarah" for the hot bag of crazy that she is.

If the "silent majority" of the GOP stops going along with the crazy the wheels come off the train.

Granted my advice is nakedly partisan so feel free to take it with a dump truck full of salt...

211 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:34:21pm

I just did a DB search for that anti-Muslim term, and look at all the banned people who used it over and over, many of whom are now at the stalker site.

212 lawhawk  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:34:26pm

The GOP's fascination with trying to chip away at all aspects of abortion is extremely troubling and this is perhaps the most horrifying move of theirs to date. They would willingly let a woman die because a hospital would be able to refuse to induce an abortion to save the woman's life. It's about as bass-ackward as it gets.

Does anyone know how many women would potentially be affected by this annually? In fact, has anyone on either side of this debate actually run the numbers to see how many women would be affected by the existing policy or a change in policy - or is that data simply unavailable because of HIPAA concerns? I'd imagine that it would be possible to gather that kind of information without sacrificing private health information.

213 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:34:59pm

re: #194 Renaissance_Man

It will not happen while Conservative cult media exists.

Too many voters who self-identify as conservative now belong to a political cult that has no interest in philosophy, governance, or the real world. While the American political system remains binary and winner-takes-all, these cultists retain disproportionate power, and thus cannot be marginalised. Keeping them angry and disconnected from reality is too powerful a business model to attempt otherwise - tone it down, clean house, become reasonable, and you lose these cultists.

This problem would be solved overnight with mandatory and/or preferential voting. Short of that or other wholesale changes in the US political system, however, only decades-long shifts in population dynamics will change the current model.

Rupert Mudroch won't be alive forever, and given that if memory serves he disowned his son, once he goes, his media empire will start to fracture.

Without all the instruments playing in harmony the noise machine wont' be as effective, that'll have to count for something....

214 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:35:55pm

re: #209 engineer dog

Do you, by any chance, know if Misha is an ex-USSR emigre?

215 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:36:30pm

John McCain did two things during the 2008 campaign that definitively cost him my vote. One was Sarah Palin, and the other was his little finger quotes when talking about the 'health' of the mother.

216 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:37:06pm

re: #213 jamesfirecat

Rupert Mudroch won't be alive forever, and given that if memory serves he disowned his son, once he goes, his media empire will start to fracture.

Without all the instruments playing in harmony the noise machine wont' be as effective, that'll have to count for something...

Conservative cult media existed before FOX, and will continue to exist long after it.

217 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:37:44pm

re: #205 wrenchwench

1% of pregnancies are in an ectopic location with implantation not occurring inside of the womb. Death to both or death to the embryo. One percent of pregnancies would be a lot of dead women.

Agree. And those 1% are most often found in prenatal care, not in an emergency.

Further, in such cases there really is no trade off - the fetus is not and cannot be viable. So the trade off really doesn't exist.

The trade off that everyone is outraged about is one where there is emergency care and where there is a clear choice between which life needs saving. That is not 1% of all pregnancies.

All that said, I still want to hear what people have to think about conscience? If we were talking about political prisoners here, everyone would be on the side of conscience. This is a case where the lines aren't so clearly drawn.

218 Amory Blaine  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:38:11pm

Lying pig Rush Limbaugh gets his ass handed to him.

219 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:38:13pm

re: #215 SanFranciscoZionist

Judges in the mold of Justices Scalia and Thomas would have been enough IMHO ;)

220 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:38:23pm

re: #204 jamesfirecat

Have you ever asked your rabbi friend does he believe the child has a right to use the mother's organs without her consent?

He isn't a rabbi.

Nor is he a lawyer.

221 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:38:51pm

re: #210 jamesfirecat

Stop voting Republican at all, or at least boycott any member of the GOP who is not only sane, but willing to call out "Sister Sarah" for the hot bag of crazy that she is.

If the "silent majority" of the GOP stops going along with the crazy the wheels come off the train.

Granted my advice is nakedly partisan so feel free to take it with a dump truck full of salt...

More of my concern is local, so I look to the candidate who will affect my quality of life directly. Where I am (urban area) candidates tend to be more reasonable. They have to be if they want to get elected.

At the national level, I do tend to support the party candidate. I have come to believe most chief executives are pretty moderate when they actually get into office.

Both Bush and Obama are great examples- they managed to piss off their own respected base so that they might get stuff done. If no one is always happy, so be it.

Presidents are leaders of a nation with varying views and not just leaders of some mythical loyal base.

Not a bad thing.

222 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:39:02pm

re: #203 researchok

True.

I just don't know how to accelerate the process to get rid of the old guard and usher in the more sane element.

The same way any political movement makes progress. The old guard does not have to be gotten rid of, they need to be politically overwhelmed. No more compromises on Hyde amendments. No more anti-choice statements in party platforms. There are anti-choice Democrats, too (Stupak, for one). Just as the wingnuts claim to be fostering a "culture of life", reasonable people need to foster a "culture of reasonableness", to include the idea that a woman has the right to terminate her pregnancy for any reason in whatever reasonable period of time allowed.

223 engineer cat  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:39:22pm

re: #200 karmic_inquisitor

I know a Jewish OB that refuses to do abortions. His religion allows it but he told me that he entered practice to bring lives into the world. His words. He also tells me that the "clear trade-off" between life of mother and life of child is rarely there - it is rare that both are healthy but one must go. more often, both lives are difficult to save and he tries to save both.

So a simple argument has been constructed here that reality would tend to erode. All forms of piety are easy from an armchair.

reality is like this:

a friend of mine has recently completed his RN certification. personally, i don't think i have the strength of character required by these unsung heroes...

anyway, he told me that part of the moral training required for all RNs is to deal with a series of questions such as "you are a bus driver, and all of a sudden you spot somebody dead in the path of your bus. you know that if you swerve or otherwise try to stop to avoid running directly over this person, you will place the lives of the 40 people on your bus in grave jeopardy. do you drive directly over the person in front of your bus?"

how would you like to have a job that could make you face a decision like that at any moment?

224 recusancy  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:40:02pm

re: #215 SanFranciscoZionist

John McCain did two things during the 2008 campaign that definitively cost him my vote. One was Sarah Palin, and the other was his little finger quotes when talking about the 'health' of the mother.

Were you planning on voting GOP just out of spite of Hillary losing or do you regularly vote across party lines in national elections?

225 Amory Blaine  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:40:15pm

re: #213 jamesfirecat

Rupert Mudroch won't be alive forever, and given that if memory serves he disowned his son, once he goes, his media empire will start to fracture.

Without all the instruments playing in harmony the noise machine wont' be as effective, that'll have to count for something...

I don't believe it. He will have a hand picked successor that will make Murdock look like Walter Cronkite.

226 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:40:43pm

re: #18 Gus 802

There is no other way to describe this other than human sacrifice. The mother is sacrificed based on Bronze Age beliefs. After the mother dies she is swept into heaven where she lives happily ever after for eternity. This as deemed by the "religious elders" of the GOP and their theocratic supporters. And people wonder why they call them the American Taliban?

I don't recall the name, but there was a case, fifteen years ago or so, where a woman got pregnant using fertility treatments, and then refused to allow the doctors to abort some of the embryos that implanted, which is normal practice. She said she didn't care if the doctors said she was going to suffer major health complications, and possible die, it was God's will.

I repeat--fertility treatments. Dan Savage went berserk, and pointed out that God's will had been that she be infertile, and for some reason she hadn't accepted that meekly.

We are really screwed up in the way we think about this stuff.

227 engineer cat  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:40:48pm

re: #214 Sergey Romanov

Do you, by any chance, know if Misha is an ex-USSR emigre?

mischa is a jewish emigree from denmark

228 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:41:12pm

Ok, ok. just posted this on facebook, now it's time for LUNCH!

229 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:41:23pm

re: #217 karmic_inquisitor

Agree. And those 1% are most often found in prenatal care, not in an emergency.

Further, in such cases there really is no trade off - the fetus is not and cannot be viable. So the trade off really doesn't exist.

The trade off that everyone is outraged about is one where there is emergency care and where there is a clear choice between which life needs saving. That is not 1% of all pregnancies.

All that said, I still want to hear what people have to think about conscience? If we were talking about political prisoners here, everyone would be on the side of conscience. This is a case where the lines aren't so clearly drawn.

Here are my thoughts.

Nobody has rights to anyone else's organs.

This means that people will die because sometimes "the kindness of their hearts" does not motivate person A to let person B make use of their organs, even temporarily.

People die waiting for livers, kidney and heart transplants.

I say we endow a fetus with all the rights of a fully grown human being, and no extra ones.

That means a mother has every right to deny the fetus her organs, and while it is very sad, that the fetus dies because of this, we can not judge it as illegal in any way shape or form without insisting on mandatory organ/blood donation without being hippocrates.

230 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:41:57pm

re: #217 karmic_inquisitor

Agree. And those 1% are most often found in prenatal care, not in an emergency.

Where does that information come from? My understanding is that the woman often doesn't know she's pregnant until there's a painful crisis, so why would she be seeking prenatal care? From that same Wiki link:

Detection of ectopic pregnancy in early gestation has been achieved mainly due to enhanced diagnostic capability. Despite all these notable successes in diagnostics and detection techniques ectopic pregnancy remains a source of serious maternal morbidity and mortality worldwide, especially in countries with poor prenatal care.
231 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:43:26pm

re: #23 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

But those are godless heathens who follow myths hundreds of years old, while their myths are a few thousand years older and come slightly more north and west while still being from the same general region.

Surely you can see the differences?

Speaking of, well, Iron Age developments on Bronze Age beliefs, the Talmud says that you are obligated to use any means to save the life of the mother, including dismembering the fetus, until the point where the baby's head has emerged from the birth canal. At that point, the principal that you cannot take a life to save a life kicks in. Up to that point, the life of the mother is paramount.

I have read that Dutch women of the Renaissance had a preference for Jewish midwives for this reason--they knew that a pious Jewish woman would take any possible measures to save the life of the mother.

232 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:44:27pm

re: #222 wrenchwench

The same way any political movement makes progress. The old guard does not have to be gotten rid of, they need to be politically overwhelmed. No more compromises on Hyde amendments. No more anti-choice statements in party platforms. There are anti-choice Democrats, too (Stupak, for one). Just as the wingnuts claim to be fostering a "culture of life", reasonable people need to foster a "culture of reasonableness", to include the idea that a woman has the right to terminate her pregnancy for any reason in whatever reasonable period of time allowed.

Excellent position.

You can make the point of 'safe, legal and rare' to conform to personal moral and ethical beliefs (and in fact that is my own position) but the notion of choice has to be sacrosanct.

Those who want to legislate laws prohibiting abortions on moral grounds had better be ready to legislate mandatory organ and marrow donations at the same time.

233 engineer cat  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:44:34pm

re: #200 karmic_inquisitor

please excuse me for jumping down your throat and possibly mis-construing your point of view

i think my cup of french roast is a little on the strong side this afternoon...

234 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:45:39pm

re: #29 Gus 802

Right about now I'm thinking about the Muslim Christian* Brotherhood. We have our own version of religious extremists in this country.

*Yes, I know that all Christian are not like this but these people primarily identify themselves as such

Just once, I'd like to see the GOP voting for some fabulous bill that requires proper health care and child care and stuff for indigent pregnant ladies--spearheaded by some sweet Birthright activist who, when challenged, screams about the sanctity of human life.

Somehow, those types never seem to get to be in charge of what laws are proposed.

235 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:45:46pm

re: #230 wrenchwench

Where does that information come from? My understanding is that the woman often doesn't know she's pregnant until there's a painful crisis, so why would she be seeking prenatal care? From that same Wiki link:

Ectopic pregnancies are almost always found in emergent situations, and not during prenatal care.

That said, the treatments for ectopic pregnancies are not generally thought of as 'abortions', nor is there the stark choice of mother's or child's life, since they are all found well within the first trimester.

236 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:45:55pm

re: #223 engineer dog

reality is like this:

a friend of mine has recently completed his RN certification. personally, i don't think i have the strength of character required by these unsung heroes...

anyway, he told me that part of the moral training required for all RNs is to deal with a series of questions such as "you are a bus driver, and all of a sudden you spot somebody dead in the path of your bus. you know that if you swerve or otherwise try to stop to avoid running directly over this person, you will place the lives of the 40 people on your bus in grave jeopardy. do you drive directly over the person in front of your bus?"

how would you like to have a job that could make you face a decision like that at any moment?

I am with you - I wouldn't want to have such a job. And I have a sister who, until recently, was a trauma surgeon. She has had car accident victims show up and has had to determine who gets saved and who doesn't because there was limited capacity in terms of operating rooms and surgeons.

That is how it goes.

Now if being an OB in this country means you must perform abortions or have your license pulled, then that should be a law so that no one who has an objection goes into that specialty.

237 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:46:45pm

This bill, and trying to redefine rape betrays what wingnuts are really thinking.

This isn't about trying to protect life or justice, it is about (still) trying to control woman's sexuality. They think that sex should only be done in wedlock and only for the purpose of producing a baby. Sex for pleasure is a big no-no. If you have a baby you don't want or can't have then it must be because you were having sex for pleasure or to outwardly expressive of such sexuality. Such immoral acts need to be punished in their mind and what better way than to force women to "live with the consequences" of their "evil acts".

238 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:47:04pm

re: #232 researchok

Those who want to legislate laws prohibiting abortions on moral grounds had better be ready to legislate mandatory organ and marrow donations at the same time.

Jamesfirecat has gotten to you!

239 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:47:06pm

re: #35 RadicalModerate

Update on topic of thread downstairs: MSNBC just reported that Mubarak did not resign from Egypt's NDP, however several other high-ranking officials did resign.
Calls for new rounds of protests are already being circulated.

This is starting to sound like a love story gone terribly wrong. I wish he knew how to quit them.

240 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:47:39pm

re: #229 jamesfirecat

Here are my thoughts.

Something to note is that your position essentially would make third trimester abortions illegal.

241 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:48:08pm

re: #240 Renaissance_Man

Something to note is that your position essentially would make third trimester abortions illegal.

Because?

242 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:48:49pm

re: #227 engineer dog

Always assumed he is from Eastern Europe, don't remember why...

243 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:49:17pm

re: #54 iceweasel

I'm surprised that weird quiverful movement doesn't do that. Purity balls and rings are creepy enough. *shudder*

I don't get the purity ball thing.

My niece used to go to an annual Daddy-Daughter ball with her father when she was younger, and he wasn't in Afghanistan. They dressed up, and danced, and had a nice time. No one's virginity was discussed. That seems, you know, normal from my perspective.

244 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:49:23pm

re: #241 jamesfirecat

Because?

Because in the third trimester the foetus doesn't need the mother's organs. Should the mother wish to withdraw organ support at that time, and, if as you suggest, the foetus has the rights of everyone else, then it could not be terminated, but would have to be delivered alive and kept alive to the best of medical capability.

245 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:50:25pm

re: #63 researchok

The stupid virus is really getting around GOP circles.

Political quarantine may be in order.

All the uninfected Republicans go into seclusion until the virus burns itself out?

246 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:51:03pm

re: #229 jamesfirecat

Here are my thoughts.

Nobody has rights to anyone else's organs.

This means that people will die because sometimes "the kindness of their hearts" does not motivate person A to let person B make use of their organs, even temporarily.

People die waiting for livers, kidney and heart transplants.

I say we endow a fetus with all the rights of a fully grown human being, and no extra ones.

That means a mother has every right to deny the fetus her organs, and while it is very sad, that the fetus dies because of this, we can not judge it as illegal in any way shape or form without insisting on mandatory organ/blood donation without being hippocrates.

James - why don't your read what I posted rather than familiarize me with the arguments in favor of choice?

I already posted (and have a gazzilion times before, even the old days when I'd get body slammed for saying it) that I am pro choice.

The question that I think should burden minds here a bit more than it does is provision for conscience. When should the state have to power to overrule religious objections? I know that Sikhs don't have to cut their hair to join the Army anymore - bravo Army.

What can be done to prevent people who object religiously to performing abortions from being compelled to do so? Or are they just cretinous barbarians for holding that religious view?

247 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:51:24pm

re: #71 sagehen

no no no. The difference is that the Muslim fundie wackos' beards are long bits of facial hair; the Christian fundie wackos' beards are called Mrs Haggard, Mrs Rekers, or Mrs Whoever's-Next-To-Be-Found-Out.

But Ted Haggard is completely heterosexual.

248 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:51:27pm

re: #238 wrenchwench

Jamesfirecat has gotten to you!

Could be- but that has been my position for a long time.

Seer this:

...By the same token, I do believe an individual has a right to choose what is right for them. It may not be what I agree with and I may find immoral, even. But until I’m in that person’s shoes, what right do I have to tell someone what is moral for them? Should not morality come from within and not be imposed? There are people and societies out there that want to do just that– impose a set of values on us that we disagree with. That imposition of morality goes against everything we believe in.

That is not a baseless argument. There are people out there with terminal diseases or in dire need of organs. Despite the desperate situations and the pain and suffering some have to endure, we do not force anyone to donate their bone marrow or organs, even in the event of death. In not doing so, we condemn those people who are ill, to death. These individuals and unfortunates are innocent and defenseless. We do not mandate that like it or not, everyone must donate what may be lifesaving to another. Is that moral? I don’t know.

249 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:52:03pm

re: #245 SanFranciscoZionist

All the uninfected Republicans go into seclusion until the virus burns itself out?

You got a better idea?
/

250 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:52:06pm

re: #233 engineer dog

please excuse me for jumping down your throat and possibly mis-construing your point of view

i think my cup of french roast is a little on the strong side this afternoon...

No problem at all. I am used to LGF abortion threads.

251 jamesfirecat  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:52:19pm

re: #244 Renaissance_Man

Because in the third trimester the foetus doesn't need the mother's organs. Should the mother wish to withdraw organ support at that time, and, if as you suggest, the foetus has the rights of everyone else, then it could not be terminated, but would have to be delivered alive and kept alive to the best of medical capability.

Then as opposed to an abortion at the third term a mother has the right to have the child cut out/have herself caused to deliver the child prematurely of her so that it is no longer using her organs, and the child can be put on life support and then set up for adoption assuming it survives.

This still maintains a woman's ability to shake her hands of the child at any point in the child barring process without infringing on anyone's right to something that isn't there's under our legal system.

252 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:52:39pm

re: #246 karmic_inquisitor


What can be done to prevent people who object religiously to performing abortions from being compelled to do so? Or are they just cretinous barbarians for holding that religious view?

The thing is, though, people aren't compelled to perform abortions if it's against their will currently. Catholic hospitals don't have to perform abortions. However, they do have to send the mother somewhere where she can be treated, because that's in the best interests of the mother. This bill seeks to remove even that requirement.

253 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:53:49pm

Wow. I don't know anything about the Catholic or Protestant views on this, but even the strictest Jewish view allows abortion when there's a threat to the life of the mother.

254 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:54:05pm

re: #248 researchok

By the way, I wrote that ln 2007

255 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:54:05pm

re: #227 engineer dog

OK, now I see ("I was born into the most Socialist, Welfare-addicted society west of the Oder (Denmark)").

256 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:54:06pm

re: #235 Renaissance_Man

Ectopic pregnancies are almost always found in emergent situations, and not during prenatal care.

That said, the treatments for ectopic pregnancies are not generally thought of as 'abortions', nor is there the stark choice of mother's or child's life, since they are all found well within the first trimester.

"Thought of" by whom? Obviously the politicians who proposed these backwards rules would see them as abortions. The proposed rules don't say anything about a choice of the embryo over the mother, just that they don't have to help the mother. In not helping the mother, they are not helping the embryo either.

257 Interesting Times  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:55:11pm

re: #217 karmic_inquisitor

All that said, I still want to hear what people have to think about conscience? If we were talking about political prisoners here, everyone would be on the side of conscience. This is a case where the lines aren't so clearly drawn.

How does accommodating religious beliefs of political prisoners endanger the life or health of others? It's a completely invalid comparison to the issue being discussed here, which is, so-called "conscience" rules that jeopardize the health and welfare of others.

258 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:55:14pm

Another stalker talking point I'll debunk while I'm at it -- that I referred to Arabs in general as "oil ticks." (I had a Twitter argument once with Oliver Willis over this; he still insists on it.)

But again, it's totally false. I did use that term - but only to refer to the Saudi royal family, never to refer to Arabs or Muslims in general.

In fact, the expression was intended to communicate sympathy for the average Saudi -- because they were ruled by a parasitical monarchy with obscene amounts of unearned wealth. It's a derogatory term, yes - but not a bigoted one. It was directed very specifically at the House of Saud, not at the Saudi people, and not at Muslims.

259 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:55:55pm

re: #197 wrenchwench

I think that's a dangerous belief. Dangerous to women. These proposals are having very real effects, even when they don't make it into law.

They are targeting the low hanging fruit. As always, the low hanging fruit is poor people.

And that plays into the other side of religion as imagined by too many people these days. Religion has been welded to the economic system we refer to as capitalism, although I personally believe there's damn little capitalism in it.

The belief of this Frankenstein monster of a religion is clear, if you work hard you will become wealthy. That is its promise.

Therefore a poor person is a sinner. They have chosen to be poor since the faith is so clear. A religious society is never kind to sinners.

On topic. To the GOP I say, "There's a big difference between being good and being right. You're more concerned with the latter than the former.

Now, to head off the blasts I'll get, I like capitalism. It's the best method put together so far for creating and distributing wealth. But it's not a social system and it is not an ethical system. Trying to make it both is why we're having so much trouble with it.

Damn, I'm long winded sometimes. /

260 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:56:18pm

re: #168 Sergey Romanov

For those paying attention (otherwise ignore it): why is it so many douchebags and Nazis (the latter I'm judging by Russian LiveJournal userpics) have this love of wolf imagery? Do they imagine themselves as these big bad wolves?

IIRC, one of the SS units called themselves 'werewolves'. I think it's just a powerful Northern European image--fake tribal, totemic, blah blah.

Pity, too, because I love wolves.

261 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:57:37pm

re: #256 wrenchwench

"Thought of" by whom? Obviously the politicians who proposed these backwards rules would see them as abortions.

Maybe. However, the drugs given are not classified as abortifacients, nor would the surgical treatment be described as an abortion. I'm pretty sure gen surgeons at Catholic hospitals, for instance, aren't prevented from treating ectopics.

262 sagehen  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:58:22pm

re: #253 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey

Wow. I don't know anything about the Catholic or Protestant views on this, but even the strictest Jewish view allows requires abortion when there's a threat to the life of the mother.

ftfy

263 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 12:59:50pm

re: #259 Romantic Heretic

And that plays into the other side of religion as imagined by too many people these days. Religion has been welded to the economic system we refer to as capitalism, although I personally believe there's damn little capitalism in it.

The belief of this Frankenstein monster of a religion is clear, if you work hard you will become wealthy. That is its promise.

Therefore a poor person is a sinner. They have chosen to be poor since the faith is so clear. A religious society is never kind to sinners.

On topic. To the GOP I say, "There's a big difference between being good and being right. You're more concerned with the latter than the former.

Now, to head off the blasts I'll get, I like capitalism. It's the best method put together so far for creating and distributing wealth. But it's not a social system and it is not an ethical system. Trying to make it both is why we're having so much trouble with it.

Damn, I'm long winded sometimes. /

But you made short, declarative sentences, and short paragraphs. More posts of a certain length would be read instead of scrolled over if people would keep readability in mind.

I also found it easy to read because after each paragraph, I was going, "Yeah!"

264 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:00:40pm

re: #253 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey

Wow. I don't know anything about the Catholic or Protestant views on this, but even the strictest Jewish view allows abortion when there's a threat to the life of the mother.

This is less "Catholic" or "Protestant" and more "Toxic GOP", I think

265 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:01:46pm

re: #224 recusancy

Were you planning on voting GOP just out of spite of Hillary losing or do you regularly vote across party lines in national elections?

I never have, no. I was pissed about losing Hillary, and I had always liked McCain. The old McCain, that is.

In the end, I voted for Obama, which everyone who knew me said I was gonna do anyway, and I've been pleased with his performance to date.

266 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:02:13pm

re: #263 wrenchwench

But you made short, declarative sentences, and short paragraphs. More posts of a certain length would be read instead of scrolled over if people would keep readability in mind.

I also found it easy to read because after each paragraph, I was going, "Yeah!"

Are you trying to say something about my writing style? >:(

/

267 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:02:25pm

re: #261 Renaissance_Man

Maybe. However, the drugs given are not classified as abortifacients, nor would the surgical treatment be described as an abortion. I'm pretty sure gen surgeons at Catholic hospitals, for instance, aren't prevented from treating ectopics.

Right. See my #178.

268 researchok  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:02:39pm

BBL

269 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:03:12pm

re: #31 Obdicut

Whereas I think it should be a crime to provide purposefully misleading medical information.

well, they're forcing them into a non-government, non-health care entity, which is probably HOW they can provide misleading information

270 engineer cat  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:05:08pm

re: #255 Sergey Romanov

OK, now I see ("I was born into the most Socialist, Welfare-addicted society west of the Oder (Denmark)").

i corresponded with him a bit by email a number of years back before he banned me from his site

i could never figure out what it was that set him so against his homeland, which i found to be prosperous, industrious, and very happy and satisfied with life

271 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:05:15pm

re: #266 prononymous

Are you trying to say something about my writing style? >:(

/

The funny thing is, I wouldn't even know whether I was or not. If you write long, rambling posts, I scrolled over before I saw whose it was....

/

272 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:05:28pm

re: #252 Renaissance_Man

The thing is, though, people aren't compelled to perform abortions if it's against their will currently. Catholic hospitals don't have to perform abortions. However, they do have to send the mother somewhere where she can be treated, because that's in the best interests of the mother. This bill seeks to remove even that requirement.

Now that is not the scenario that was referenced in the article that Charles posted.

The contention is that an amendment to a bill that is in committee is worded such that the hospital can simply let the woman die and refuse to transfer her elsewhere. That same post also references that the language of the amendment is not available for linking so it was transcribed into the comments section.

All that said, as I understand the current law, the Catholic Hospital is required to perform the abortion if that is what is necessary to stabilize the patient.

So we are back to the issue : should they be compelled to do so, and maintain staff to perform the abortion even thought they believe it to be a mortal sin? The choice these hospitals do have is simply to refuse the federal money. But that, in substance, means many of these hospitals will simply close because they exist to provide indigent care. Then the indigent are screwed even more than they are now, frankly.

I don't see why reasonable people of goodwill can't come up with a solution here.

Let me recast the situation slightly to take some of the political dimensions away - say it were a hospital operated by exiled Tibetan monks under the Dalai-Lama. He also objects to abortion.

273 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:06:00pm

re: #271 wrenchwench

The funny thing is, I wouldn't even know whether I was or not. If you write long, rambling posts, I scrolled over before I saw whose it was...

/

Lol. Fair enough.

274 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:08:23pm

Lidane had a post about more woman hating legislation coming from the GOP in Georgia.

If they get their way there will be no such thing as a rape victim in Georgia anymore.


U.S. House Republicans have received a great deal of attention over the past week since seeking to qualify the crime of rape with the term “forcible” in a high-profile piece of legislation. Such a distinction could create classes of rape victims, with “forcible rape” victims somehow being ordained as worse off than victims of statutory rape, date rape, rape by coercion or deception, rape of the disabled or mentally impaired… You get the picture.

But what if rape victims could no longer be referred to as “victims” at all? What if people who have endured this horrible – and already chronically underreported — crime could only be called “accusers”?

[Link: addictinginfo.org...]

So where are all of those sane moderate Republicans protesting against this nonsense? I once read that 1/3 of all Republicans were pro-choice, so where are they?

275 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:08:25pm

re: #265 SanFranciscoZionist

I never have, no. I was pissed about losing Hillary, and I had always liked McCain. The old McCain, that is.

In the end, I voted for Obama, which everyone who knew me said I was gonna do anyway, and I've been pleased with his performance to date.

I think I've actually liked Obama in office more than some of my friends who thought he was going to save the world in three weeks. I voted for him figuring he was a fairly ordinary centrist Democrat who looked nice and could give a good speech, and he has substantially exceeded my initial expectations.

276 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:08:33pm

re: #263 wrenchwench

But you made short, declarative sentences, and short paragraphs. More posts of a certain length would be read instead of scrolled over if people would keep readability in mind.

I also found it easy to read because after each paragraph, I was going, "Yeah!"

Merci beaucoup.

I used to be a writer. Then I worked on a project with a person who is now probably a Tea Partier.

Once the wounds have healed I'll try writing again.

277 recusancy  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:09:12pm

re: #275 SanFranciscoZionist

I think I've actually liked Obama in office more than some of my friends who thought he was going to save the world in three weeks. I voted for him figuring he was a fairly ordinary centrist Democrat who looked nice and could give a good speech, and he has substantially exceeded my initial expectations.

Good to hear :)

278 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:09:40pm

Reading Misha the Rottweiler's "conversion story" found this:

Whereas I could strut around as an officer and a gentleman (presumably) in an Army that was a declared enemy of the Soviet Union, talking about the blessings of the rule of the working man, they couldn't even buy a copy of the Bible without fear of being sent off to the camps if anybody ever found out.

Oh, such bullshit. He was serving in the fucking 80s (being born in 1967). In 1988 the day of the 1000 years of baptism of Russia was an de facto official celebration. My family wasn't religious but even we had a New Testament printed in the Order of October Revolution & Order of the Red Banner A.A. Zhdanov Typography in the end of 1970s. Religion was suppressed, but it wasn't as bad as he describes, and especially not since mid-80s.

279 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:11:33pm

re: #272 karmic_inquisitor

Now that is not the scenario that was referenced in the article that Charles posted.

The contention is that an amendment to a bill that is in committee is worded such that the hospital can simply let the woman die and refuse to transfer her elsewhere. That same post also references that the language of the amendment is not available for linking so it was transcribed into the comments section.

All that said, as I understand the current law, the Catholic Hospital is required to perform the abortion if that is what is necessary to stabilize the patient.

So we are back to the issue : should they be compelled to do so, and maintain staff to perform the abortion even thought they believe it to be a mortal sin? The choice these hospitals do have is simply to refuse the federal money. But that, in substance, means many of these hospitals will simply close because they exist to provide indigent care. Then the indigent are screwed even more than they are now, frankly.

I don't see why reasonable people of goodwill can't come up with a solution here.

Let me recast the situation slightly to take some of the political dimensions away - say it were a hospital operated by exiled Tibetan monks under the Dalai-Lama. He also objects to abortion.

For hospitals that are allowed to refuse to perform and abortion and transfer the woman to another hospital, what if there isn't another hospital nearby? If a woman's life is in immediate danger, wouldn't time be of the essence? Is there an existing provision for that?

280 Lidane  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:12:37pm

re: #275 SanFranciscoZionist

I voted for him figuring he was a fairly ordinary centrist Democrat who looked nice and could give a good speech, and he has substantially exceeded my initial expectations.

Yeah, this.

I never bought into the savior of the world bullshit, just because every candidate for POTUS is human and therefore flawed. I liked Obama enough as a moderate, even-tempered guy who was smart and had a great family and a more realistic story for the globalized world we live in.

Besides, voting McCain meant giving tacit approval to Sarah Palin, and I'd rather eat glass. Thanks, but no. The idea of her anywhere near the nuke codes or the Oval Office terrified me.

281 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:14:09pm

Afternoon Honcos.

282 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:14:33pm

re: #257 publicityStunted

How does accommodating religious beliefs of political prisoners endanger the life or health of others? It's a completely invalid comparison to the issue being discussed here, which is, so-called "conscience" rules that jeopardize the health and welfare of others.

Well then you must not have been aware of waterboarding at Gitmo and other places. We took prisoners based on their affiliation with a group and maintained that some of these individuals held information that would save lives if we knew the information, so we waterboarded them or used other "enhanced interrogation techniques" to get the info out of them.

Many of these techniques (like using dogs) were intended to offend, exploit and violate religious belief. I am amazed at how some here can reduce the claims of conscience of others to "so called" and do it with such a pious tone. Reminds me of the old style LGF.

283 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:16:52pm

re: #280 Lidane

Yeah, this.

I never bought into the savior of the world bullshit, just because every candidate for POTUS is human and therefore flawed. I liked Obama enough as a moderate, even-tempered guy who was smart and had a great family and a more realistic story for the globalized world we live in.

Besides, voting McCain meant giving tacit approval to Sarah Palin, and I'd rather eat glass. Thanks, but no. The idea of her anywhere near the nuke codes or the Oval Office terrified me.

I was never going to vote for McCain, but I thought he would be a decent president if he won. That belief went out the window when he picked Palin. Even if she had turned out to be a smart competent person, he didn't know that when he picked her. It was clear he didn't vet her and chose her on the fly. Country first my ass. He didn't even know her daughter was pregnant and a quick Google search could have alerted the campaign to the rumors. Choosing a VP is the first executive decision we got to witness from both candidates and John McCain failed.

284 engineer cat  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:17:47pm

re: #218 Amory Blaine

Lying pig Rush Limbaugh gets his ass handed to him.


[Video]

heh

after 25 years of bullshit, two minutes of reality and limbaugh is reduced to spluttering and retreating

285 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:18:40pm

re: #281 Cannadian Club Akbar

Afternoon Honcos.

what up?

286 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:19:16pm

re: #279 moderatelyradicalliberal

For hospitals that are allowed to refuse to perform and abortion and transfer the woman to another hospital, what if there isn't another hospital nearby? If a woman's life is in immediate danger, wouldn't time be of the essence? Is there an existing provision for that?

My understanding is that they are compelled to perform the abortion if they receive federal funds.

That is the legal aspect. I suspect that the people saddled with the actual situation often end up doing what they thought they never would, making choices that they hope they will come to live with.

287 Lidane  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:19:20pm

re: #283 moderatelyradicalliberal

Choosing a VP is the first executive decision we got to witness from both candidates and John McCain failed.

Yep. McCain clearly chose her from a position of total desperation. That's not what I want from a POTUS.

288 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:19:34pm

re: #285 HoosierHoops

what up?

We got a cold front coming through. Got caught in the rain while out for a walk.

289 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:21:21pm

re: #278 Sergey Romanov

Reading Misha the Rottweiler's "conversion story" found this:

Oh, such bullshit. He was serving in the fucking 80s (being born in 1967). In 1988 the day of the 1000 years of baptism of Russia was an de facto official celebration. My family wasn't religious but even we had a New Testament printed in the Order of October Revolution & Order of the Red Banner A.A. Zhdanov Typography in the end of 1970s. Religion was suppressed, but it wasn't as bad as he describes, and especially not since mid-80s.

From the same department, further in the screed:

And that started me thinking. If we in the west could allow people to own a signed copy of "Mein Kampf" and still avoid becoming nazis, if we could allow people to read Mao's little red book aloud to their children and still remain a prosperous society while our brothers and sisters couldn't even listen to Abba without risking persecution, then something had to be wrong about socialism.

W.T.F. ABBA's first album appeared in USSR in 1977 (re-issued in 1980 and 1987), second and third albums were issued in 1978, Voule-Vouz appeared in 1984, etc.

[Link: russian.swedishportal.net...]

I mean, is this guy for real? These people give their delusions as a reason for their conversion.

290 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:21:37pm

re: #218 Amory Blaine

Lying pig Rush Limbaugh gets his ass handed to him.

[Video]

That's pretty hilarious.

291 recusancy  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:21:43pm

re: #287 Lidane

Yep. McCain clearly chose her from a position of total desperation. That's not what I want from a POTUS.

Also the suspending his campaign bs. That was so comical.

292 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:22:04pm

re: #290 SanFranciscoZionist

That's pretty hilarious.

"Oh, I do. Most assuredly I do. I just don't think that you would understand it."

293 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:23:36pm

re: #292 SanFranciscoZionist

"Oh, I do. Most assuredly I do. I just don't think that you would understand it."

"Somebody like you just has to be defeated...You are unreachable. You don't want to be reached."

My God. Limbaugh is a fucking moron.

294 engineer cat  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:24:25pm

re: #278 Sergey Romanov

Reading Misha the Rottweiler's "conversion story" found this:

Oh, such bullshit. He was serving in the fucking 80s (being born in 1967). In 1988 the day of the 1000 years of baptism of Russia was an de facto official celebration. My family wasn't religious but even we had a New Testament printed in the Order of October Revolution & Order of the Red Banner A.A. Zhdanov Typography in the end of 1970s. Religion was suppressed, but it wasn't as bad as he describes, and especially not since mid-80s.

misha has found, like so many other right wing cheerleaders, that he can make a good living by lying, stirring up shit, and giving a bunch of couch potatoes a venue to strut around with each other and talk tough

at the time that i was naively attempting to debate with them, they sported the most innovative and disgusting set of derogative epithets this side of a seventh grade locker room

295 TedStriker  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:25:02pm

re: #129 Charles

Here's one note on those charges, specifically that I am an anti-Latino racist (which would come as a great surprise to all the Hispanic musicians I've worked with); I wrote a comment in 2009, addressing my earlier posts about the National Council of La Raza -- which I now realize were mistaken, because I had equated La Raza Unida (a truly radical group) with NCLR, and because my personal experience of La Raza in the 60s and 70s had convinced me they were a radical separatist group. I've since learned better.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

That's why the wingnuts hate you, me, and anyone not riding on their krayzee train to Perdition...they can never admit they're wrong, EVER. On the contrary...when confronted with verifiable facts that discredit their positions, they double-down and act like spoiled brats with their fingers in their ears, screaming "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!", or they go for character assassination.

With what's been going on since the 2008 elections, it makes me feel ashamed to have had anything to do with the GOP.

/The "new" GOP: when facts aren't on your side, dazzle them with bullshit...

296 Kronocide  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:26:45pm

re: #293 SanFranciscoZionist

"Somebody like you just has to be defeated...You are unreachable. You don't want to be reached."

My God. Limbaugh is a fucking moron.

He was also projecting in the clearest sense of the term.

297 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:27:20pm

re: #286 karmic_inquisitor

My understanding is that they are compelled to perform the abortion if they receive federal funds.

That is the legal aspect. I suspect that the people saddled with the actual situation often end up doing what they thought they never would, making choices that they hope they will come to live with.

I just can't imagine any doctor letting a woman die. Thank God for the Hippocratic Oath.

298 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:27:24pm

Then the crescendo:

And I realized, being immersed in Soviet society, that everything I'd ever learned about socialism was a lie. A lie created to keep people in servitude, a lie designed to forbid people from questioning the society in which they lived and a lie that, once and for all, settled a question that I'd forever been pondering through my years of study: Why Naziism and Socialism looked so much alike and how they managed to live side by side for so many years up until '41.

It's because they're one and the same.

They're both founded on the same credo, that we're all alike, that we're all automatons longing to be fitted into the government mold and that the needs of the state come before the needs of the individual.

Yes, Nazism is founded on the credo that we're all alike. I kid you not.

299 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:27:34pm

re: #295 talon_262

That's why the wingnuts hate you, me, and anyone not riding on their krayzee train to Perdition...they can never admit they're wrong, EVER. On the contrary...when confronted with verifiable facts that discredit their positions, they double-down and act like spoiled brats with their fingers in their ears, screaming "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!", or they go for character assassination.

With what's been going on since the 2008 elections, it makes me feel ashamed to have had anything to do with the GOP.

/The "new" GOP: when facts aren't on your side, dazzle them with bullshit...

Give 'em the old razzle dazzle
Razzle Dazzle 'em
Give 'em an act with lots of flash in it
And the reaction will be passionate
Give 'em the old hocus pocus
Bead and feather 'em
How can they see with sequins in their eyes?

Speaking of 'the Chicago way'...

300 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:28:14pm

re: #298 Sergey Romanov

Then the crescendo:

Yes, Nazism is founded on the credo that we're all alike. I kid you not.

If that's so, why do these guys get so hysterical over the word 'diversity'?

301 engineer cat  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:29:25pm

re: #289 Sergey Romanov

From the same department, further in the screed:

W.T.F. ABBA's first album appeared in USSR in 1977 (re-issued in 1980 and 1987), second and third albums were issued in 1978, Voule-Vouz appeared in 1984, etc.

[Link: russian.swedishportal.net...]

I mean, is this guy for real? These people give their delusions as a reason for their conversion.

he musta missed that video of the red army choir singing 'sweet home alabama' with the leningrad cowboys

302 recusancy  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:29:32pm

re: #293 SanFranciscoZionist

"Somebody like you just has to be defeated...You are unreachable. You don't want to be reached."

My God. Limbaugh is a fucking moron.

Then he adds "I'm not trying to be insulting".

303 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:29:46pm

re: #291 recusancy

Also the suspending his campaign bs. That was so comical.

I thought "We are all Georgians now" was the funniest of McCain's bloopers. Most Americans probably thought Russia invading Georgia meant the bastards were down south stealing all of our peaches and peanuts.

304 engineer cat  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:30:47pm

re: #298 Sergey Romanov

Then the crescendo:

Yes, Nazism is founded on the credo that we're all alike. I kid you not.

somebody forgot to tell that mr hitler fellow

305 recusancy  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:30:49pm

re: #303 moderatelyradicalliberal

I thought "We are all Georgians now" was the funniest of McCain's bloopers. Most Americans probably thought Russia invading Georgia meant the bastards were down south stealing all of our peaches and peanuts.

We'd be at war with russia right now if McCain were president.

306 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:31:53pm

re: #301 engineer dog

Well, that indeed would have been unpossible ;) in USSR.

307 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:32:23pm

re: #305 recusancy

We'd be at war with russia right now if McCain were president.

Instead we got the START treaty. Like I said before, I voted for Barack Obama and I will never be sorry that I did.

308 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:32:29pm

re: #302 recusancy

Then he adds "I'm not trying to be insulting".

"It's not my fault that I can't actually articulate what the hell my political beliefs are based on, it's yours..."

309 Lidane  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:33:33pm

re: #305 recusancy

We'd be at war with russia right now if McCain were president.

And if not, Caribou Barbie would be bitching about Putin being able to see her house, so we should nuke Moscow. =P

310 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:33:40pm

re: #304 engineer dog

somebody forgot to tell that mr hitler fellow

After he killed everyone who didn't fit his Master Race criteria, everyone left would have been alike.

311 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:33:58pm

re: #304 engineer dog

somebody forgot to tell that mr hitler fellow

In the world of stupid political rhetoric, Nazis are unique in being the political ideology that espoused absolutely anything, so long as it's something the speaker doesn't like.

312 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:35:56pm

re: #309 Lidane

And if not, Caribou Barbie would be bitching about Putin being able to see her house, so we should nuke Moscow. =P

Actually, I have an awful feeling that Sarah would really like Putin--and that he would be able to razzle-dazzle her quite easily.

313 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:36:04pm

re: #308 SanFranciscoZionist

"It's not my fault that I can't actually articulate what the hell my political beliefs are based on, it's yours..."

Props to Rush. A less experienced demagogue might have blurted out something damning like 'Somebody like you just has to be defeated... You liberals come in here with your facts and it's proof you'll just never get it.'

Much like the preacher who said 'we're under attack by the intelligent, educated segment of America'. At that critical point where your schtick is exposed as a sham, it takes a truly experienced demagogue to manage to say something that will let his believers still cling to the doctrine. Every one of his believers went away from that exchange hating liberals more.

314 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:36:56pm

re: #312 SanFranciscoZionist

Actually, I have an awful feeling that Sarah would really like Putin--and that he would be able to razzle-dazzle her quite easily.

He razzle-dazzled Bush...

315 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:38:18pm

re: #312 SanFranciscoZionist

Actually, I have an awful feeling that Sarah would really like Putin--and that he would be able to razzle-dazzle her quite easily.

Probably. He's a manly man, who shoots shit and walks around with no shirt on even when its could outside.

316 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:38:38pm

re: #314 Sergey Romanov

He razzle-dazzled Bush...

In general, when an adult American man starts babbling about being able to see people's souls, it's never good.

317 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:40:18pm

re: #316 SanFranciscoZionist

Jedi

318 freetoken  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:40:45pm

re: #295 talon_262

Yes. Most people, as they go through life, seem to learn a thing or two, here and there, and change their mind on this or that.

For some reason, that is seen as a great heresy to the obsessed.

Stalkers come off as very obsessive personalities.

319 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:40:55pm

re: #317 Sergey Romanov

Jedi

It ated my comment! Gah!

KGB mind trick, anyway.

320 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:41:09pm

re: #316 SanFranciscoZionist

In general, when an adult American man starts babbling about being able to see people's souls, it's never good.

I did, however, like an anecdote from Bush's memoir. Apparently Putin was bragging about his dog, and how it was better than Bush's dog--bigger, stronger, blah, blah.

Apparently Bush mentioned this to Stephen Harper who told him, "You're lucky it's just the dog he wanted to brag about."

321 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:42:41pm

re: #320 SanFranciscoZionist

I did, however, like an anecdote from Bush's memoir. Apparently Putin was bragging about his dog, and how it was better than Bush's dog--bigger, stronger, blah, blah.

Apparently Bush mentioned this to Stephen Harper who told him, "You're lucky it's just the dog he wanted to brag about."

Berezovsky, who was with Putin in sauns, says it's small. But he would say that, wouldn't he.

;)

322 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:43:08pm

re: #313 Renaissance_Man

Props to Rush. A less experienced demagogue might have blurted out something damning like 'Somebody like you just has to be defeated... You liberals come in here with your facts and it's proof you'll just never get it.'

Much like the preacher who said 'we're under attack by the intelligent, educated segment of America'. At that critical point where your schtick is exposed as a sham, it takes a truly experienced demagogue to manage to say something that will let his believers still cling to the doctrine. Every one of his believers went away from that exchange hating liberals more.

I think your last sentence hit the nail on the head. I think a lot of what fuels the modern far right is resentment derived from an inferiority complex. They seem to be people who are constantly worried about who is looking down on them, especially if its people who they used to be able to look down on (people of color, gays, etc). You add ignorance, hyper religiosity, and paranoia into the mix and you have a perfect recipe for what we are seeing today.

323 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:48:10pm

re: #322 moderatelyradicalliberal

They remind me of my uncle Steve, a lazy, ignorant, racist jerk who took early retirement from the phone company at age forty-five but still calls black people 'shiftless'.

He goes through life terrified. It's really awful to see, but he lets it all out through derision and hate, especially for anyone successful. A lot of the attacks on Obama-- uppitty, arrogant, out of touch, etc.-- are just recycled "You're getting above your station, boy" memes, combined with "Can't trust intellectuals". And his overall message of taking personal responsibility and yet helping other people out baffles and angers them; when he suggested people do simple things to conserve energy, people were loudly red-facedly yelling about their right to waste as much energy as they wanted.

It reminds me of Patton Oswalt's classic slam: "You're going to miss everything cool in life and die angry."

324 FreedomMoon  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:49:55pm

re: #318 freetoken

Yes. Most people, as they go through life, seem to learn a thing or two, here and there, and change their mind on this or that.

For some reason, that is seen as a great heresy to the obsessed.

Stalkers come off as very obsessive personalities.

It seems like a lot of Democrats that I know, including myself were at once conservative-minded Republicans. I think anyone who's principles and ideas haven't budged really come off as close minded and ignorant. There is so much information in the world--to assume that you're right about everything without looking deeper into a given subject speaks volumes about who you are.

325 recusancy  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:50:33pm

re: #323 Obdicut

LOVE's me some Patton Oswalt

326 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:52:28pm

re: #323 Obdicut

The "best" thing is when attacks on intellectuals go hand in hand with "they have lower intelligence".

327 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:58:35pm

re: #282 karmic_inquisitor

Well then you must not have been aware of waterboarding at Gitmo and other places. We took prisoners based on their affiliation with a group and maintained that some of these individuals held information that would save lives if we knew the information, so we waterboarded them or used other "enhanced interrogation techniques" to get the info out of them.

Many of these techniques (like using dogs) were intended to offend, exploit and violate religious belief. I am amazed at how some here can reduce the claims of conscience of others to "so called" and do it with such a pious tone. Reminds me of the old style LGF.

I'm sorry that I offended you with the "so-called" phrase. (I'm pretty sure that was me). I was referring to the clause as a so-called conscience clause, not to any person's conscience as "so-called".

And I can't help my "pious tone" when it comes to discussing people who would promote the idea that there exists a belief system worthy respect which holds that the contents of a uterus are of more value than the carrier of the uterus. But I'll work on it.

328 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:58:47pm

re: #324 tacuba14

It seems like a lot of Democrats that I know, including myself were at once conservative-minded Republicans. I think anyone who's principles and ideas haven't budged really come off as close minded and ignorant. There is so much information in the world--to assume that you're right about everything without looking deeper into a given subject speaks volumes about who you are.

I honestly don't think the word "conservative" applies to these people. They are reactionary radicals. Politics based on who you don't like isn't an ideology, it's an attitude. We have on the far right a massive inferiority complex masquerading as a political ideology. They feel resentful over their perceived displacement in society. Reality and facts are crashing into their long held beliefs. They used to know where their place on the social hierarchy was. Now they don't. After the election in 2008, they felt like outsiders and watched the previous outsiders become insiders. It's a zero sum game for them. Even though it's totally ridiculous, there is a reason why the TPers sounded like long aggrieved minorities and tried to borrow the language and tactics of previous protest movements from people who were long aggrieved. It's like they went to bed beautiful and woke up ugly and they aren't adjusting well.

329 Obdicut  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:59:50pm

re: #326 Sergey Romanov

It's a bizarre redefining of intelligence, often. The 'ivory tower' critique often implies that that intelligence can't actually translate to 'real life'. This is especially stupid as an attack on scientists, who deal with 'real life' in a very absolute way.

It was, of course, one of the attacks against Jews in Europe; that we were extremely intelligent, but that intelligence was perverted away from the improvement of society and towards parasitism; that we were geniuses, but only at immoral things. The way that the GOP portrays scientists is similar to that anti-intellectual attack on Jews in Europe. At best, scientists are portrayed as bumbling, head-in-the-clouds, at worst, corrupted and sucking vitality away from society.

Blacks and Hispanics are often attacked for being expert in 'working the system', but portrayed as otherwise intellectually inferior.

330 Kronocide  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:01:22pm

re: #324 tacuba14

It seems like a lot of Democrats that I know, including myself were at once conservative-minded Republicans. I think anyone who's principles and ideas haven't budged really come off as close minded and ignorant.

You talkin bout me? ME?

I'm not a Dem quite yet but there has been some significant transition within me helped along by the reversion of the GOP ideals documented in the last few years. And the influence of LGF, a 'safe' place to 'deprogram' from the hyperpartisan blogs.

Ironically, my first negative influence was my Dem family incessantly ranting about Reagan. I flew the coop and became inspired by conservatism and Limbaugh.... but got sick of the incessant yammering on about Clinton... became turned off by the endless BDS.... and now it's all been dwarfed by today's ODS. CJ's 'Tribalism' article was a home run, I've lived it.

Limbaugh just exemplified it very clearly, blatantly.

331 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:01:49pm

re: #324 tacuba14

It seems like a lot of Democrats that I know, including myself were at once conservative-minded Republicans. I think anyone who's principles and ideas haven't budged really come off as close minded and ignorant. There is so much information in the world--to assume that you're right about everything without looking deeper into a given subject speaks volumes about who you are.

Using your logic, I would have to be some kind of Republican now, because I stumbled into the position you now hold in the late 50s. Does one of us always have to be wrong to keep th world in sync?

332 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:02:58pm

More misogyny from the GOP in Arkansas.


[Link: www.rhrealitycheck.org...]

If you are woman in AK, rapists have more right to become fathers by force than you do by choice.

333 recusancy  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:03:28pm

re: #331 Decatur Deb

Using your logic, I would have to be some kind of Republican now, because I stumbled into the position you now hold in the late 50s. Does one of us always have to be wrong to keep th world in sync?

In your 50's or the late 50's? How old are you?

334 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:03:40pm

re: #332 moderatelyradicalliberal

More misogyny from the GOP in Arkansas.

[Link: www.rhrealitycheck.org...]

If you are woman in AK, rapists have more right to become fathers by force than you do by choice.

Sorry, AR.

335 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:04:02pm

re: #333 recusancy

In your 50's or the late 50's? How old are you?

FDR Baby.

336 recusancy  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:04:37pm

re: #335 Decatur Deb

FDR Baby.

Ahhh.. Just wondered.

337 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:05:49pm

re: #329 Obdicut

It's a bizarre redefining of intelligence, often. The 'ivory tower' critique often implies that that intelligence can't actually translate to 'real life'. This is especially stupid as an attack on scientists, who deal with 'real life' in a very absolute way.

It was, of course, one of the attacks against Jews in Europe; that we were extremely intelligent, but that intelligence was perverted away from the improvement of society and towards parasitism; that we were geniuses, but only at immoral things. The way that the GOP portrays scientists is similar to that anti-intellectual attack on Jews in Europe. At best, scientists are portrayed as bumbling, head-in-the-clouds, at worst, corrupted and sucking vitality away from society.

Blacks and Hispanics are often attacked for being expert in 'working the system', but portrayed as otherwise intellectually inferior.

Right. Clever, deviant, and opportunistic, but never truly intelligent.

338 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:06:36pm

re: #335 Decatur Deb

FDR Baby.

You would pick the president that narrows down your birth year the least.

339 TedStriker  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:07:01pm

re: #147 Charles

That's OK, I love Conservapedia. One of the funniest right wing sites on the web.

So bad, it's good, huh?

;-P

340 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:08:02pm

re: #338 wrenchwench

You would pick the president that narrows down your birth year the least.

Ok, no more rubber hoses--66.

341 FreedomMoon  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:08:24pm

I wasn't talking about anyone specifically, just to clarify. It was more as a sleight to the TPers, however I think my "logic" should apply to everyone.

342 TedStriker  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:09:38pm

re: #172 Lidane

Pretty much. I've had people tell me that Charles was a quasi-hippie that flipped his shit over 9/11 then spent a few years coming back to sanity. I haven't been here long enough to know how true that is, but whatever. If it annoys the reactionary nutballs and stalkers on the far right and confuses the far left, then he's doing something right. Heh.

This.

When you're taking flak from all sides, you know you're over the target...

343 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:10:54pm

re: #330 BigPapa

You talkin bout me? ME?

I'm not a Dem quite yet but there has been some significant transition within me helped along by the reversion of the GOP ideals documented in the last few years. And the influence of LGF, a 'safe' place to 'deprogram' from the hyperpartisan blogs.

Ironically, my first negative influence was my Dem family incessantly ranting about Reagan. I flew the coop and became inspired by conservatism and Limbaugh... but got sick of the incessant yammering on about Clinton... became turned off by the endless BDS... and now it's all been dwarfed by today's ODS. CJ's 'Tribalism' article was a home run, I've lived it.

Limbaugh just exemplified it very clearly, blatantly.

People don't leave parties, parties leave people.

344 Lanaty  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:11:17pm

So a mother of three comes in to an ER with a life-threatening condition, and she happens to be pregnant. The GOP would rather that three children be left motherless than for them to not have another sibling.

Is it really 2011? Is this really America?

345 Stanghazi  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:11:33pm

Sorry if posted, just got back.

The good news is Beck is being marginalized. Finally.

[Link: mediamatters.org...]

346 Kid A  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:11:42pm

Esther's handlers pulled the half-Governor out of the closet, dusted her off, and pulled the string on her back. Click the link below...

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

And guess what? Huge government spending started in January 2009 with Obama as president! Shocking, I know! //

"Republican Sarah Palin said on Friday an explosion of government spending and debt under President Barack Obama and his fellow Democrats had put the United States on "the road to ruin."

I guess George W. Bush and the tripling of spending on his watch just never happened.

347 recusancy  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:11:55pm

re: #343 moderatelyradicalliberal

People don't leave parties, parties leave people.

Not always. That's often times a cop out for people who don't want to admit they changed their minds.

348 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:12:26pm

re: #341 tacuba14

I wasn't talking about anyone specifically, just to clarify. It was more as a sleight to the TPers, however I think my "logic" should apply to everyone.

Except those of us who were blessed to achieve enlightenment as children.

349 Stanghazi  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:13:40pm

re: #346 Kid A

Esther's handlers pulled the half-Governor out of the closet, dusted her off, and pulled the string on her back. Click the link below...

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

And guess what? Huge government spending started in January 2009 with Obama as president! Shocking, I know! //

"Republican Sarah Palin said on Friday an explosion of government spending and debt under President Barack Obama and his fellow Democrats had put the United States on "the road to ruin."

I guess George W. Bush and the tripling of spending on his watch just never happened.

I actually watched some of Sister Sarah's speech. One of her worst evah.

350 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:13:45pm

re: #344 Lanaty

So a mother of three comes in to an ER with a life-threatening condition, and she happens to be pregnant. The GOP would rather that three children be left motherless than for them to not have another sibling.

Is it really 2011? Is this really America?

Yes. Whoever called these people the American Taliban first probably got slammed for it, but it's increasingly looking like a very accurate description.

351 recusancy  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:14:17pm

re: #350 moderatelyradicalliberal

Yes. Whoever called these people the American Taliban first probably got slammed for it, but it's increasingly looking like a very accurate description.

Kos

352 Kid A  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:14:31pm

re: #350 moderatelyradicalliberal

That was Markos Moulitsas over at Daily Kos. It's the name of his book.

353 TedStriker  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:14:47pm

re: #196 Charles

I remember that word being used and I didn't care for it, but I said nothing (IIRC)...shame on me.

354 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:15:54pm

re: #347 recusancy

Not always. That's often times a cop out for people who don't want to admit they changed their minds.

I know, but that was Reagan's excuse. But I do think there is a chicken/egg things at play. Which comes first: not liking the ideas or not liking the people who espouse the ideas?

355 Kid A  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:18:03pm

"If history teaches us anything, it's that bad ideas are never gone for good," she said. -Half-Governor Palin

You're right, Sarah. John McCain's decision to pick you as his running mate is haunting us to this day.

356 Lanaty  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:18:43pm

re: #350 moderatelyradicalliberal

Sounds pretty spot-on to me. I wonder if they realize that there are places in the world that have instituted these kinds of "values". They are free to move to Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, and other places that resemble the stone age if they wish.

Meanwhile, I hope the reasonable people who run the American Medical Association quickly and thoroughly bash this bill.

357 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:19:13pm

re: #340 Decatur Deb

Ok, no more rubber hoses--66.

You're practically a Truman baby. My FDR baby at home just turned 72.

358 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:19:31pm

re: #352 Kid A

That was Markos Moulitsas over at Daily Kos. It's the name of his book.

Thanks. Funny I left that blog when all of the primary Obama diaries kept dominating the rec list. I'd heard the term, but had never noticed anything about his books.

359 Stanghazi  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:20:43pm

AliDahmash Under My Olive Tree
I bow to Egyptians! A Beautiful wedding in #Tahrir Egyptians Rock!!! #Jan25 #Egypt [Link: yfrog.com...]

360 recusancy  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:20:58pm

re: #358 moderatelyradicalliberal

Thanks. Funny I left that blog when all of the primary Obama diaries kept dominating the rec list. I'd heard the term, but had never noticed anything about his books.

Where'd you end up moving to? MyDD? Hillaryis44?

361 FreedomMoon  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:22:11pm

re: #348 Decatur Deb

Except those of us who were blessed to achieve enlightenment as children.

I occasionally listen to Rush and every so often, children call and spout some kind of nonsense about being so enlightened, how right Rush is and then shower him with all sorts of praise. I think it's those kinds of kids who will be intellectually paralyzed unless they start asking some serious questions when they're older and capable. If not, by the time they're 35 they're gonna be toting around a 9 mm in public and gluing bags of tea to a hat.

362 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:23:07pm

re: #359 Stanley Sea

AliDahmash Under My Olive Tree
I bow to Egyptians! A Beautiful wedding in #Tahrir Egyptians Rock!!! #Jan25 #Egypt [Link: yfrog.com...]

That is the neatest damn wedding photo ever. I hope it's on their mantle for 50 yrs.

363 Stanghazi  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:24:51pm

re: #362 Decatur Deb

That is the neatest damn wedding photo ever. I hope it's on their mantle for 50 yrs.

I'm freaking going to put it on MINE.

So much awesome.

364 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:27:31pm

re: #360 recusancy

Where'd you end up moving to? MyDD? Hillaryis44?

Ugh. HI44 is downright nasty. Mind you, HRC's campaign was nasty and dishonest (all is forgiven, of course, but not forgotten), which is why DailyKos was right to support Obama, but HI44 was in a class of its own.

365 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:28:01pm

re: #361 tacuba14

I occasionally listen to Rush and every so often, children call and spout some kind of nonsense about being so enlightened, how right Rush is and then shower him with all sorts of praise. I think it's those kinds of kids who will be intellectually paralyzed unless they start asking some serious questions when they're older and capable. If not, by the time they're 35 they're gonna be toting around a 9 mm in public and gluing bags of tea to a hat.

Much of that is luck and personality--much worse is to see a young person drift away from a righteous position under the pressure of age and conformity.

366 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:34:00pm

re: #360 recusancy

Where'd you end up moving to? MyDD? Hillaryis44?

No, I never went to those places. Too many crazy PUMAs. I joined DKos in 2008 and left a few months ago. I left the HuffPost too. I actually went to balloon Juice and came here. I'm not looking for lock step agreement, but I can't deal with crazy from either side. The left isn't as crazy as the right, but it's annoying when you run into it.

367 recusancy  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:34:50pm

re: #364 Sergey Romanov

Ugh. HI44 is downright nasty. Mind you, HRC's campaign was nasty and dishonest (all is forgiven, of course, but not forgotten), which is why DailyKos was right to support Obama, but HI44 was in a class of its own.

It didn't hold a candle to noquarter though ;)

368 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:36:07pm

re: #364 Sergey Romanov

Ugh. HI44 is downright nasty. Mind you, HRC's campaign was nasty and dishonest (all is forgiven, of course, but not forgotten), which is why DailyKos was right to support Obama, but HI44 was in a class of its own.

Yeah, that's how I remember things, but DKOs went a little too FDL for me a few months ago so I left and haven't been back since. They ran a lot of good people off with that bullshit.

369 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:36:26pm

re: #367 recusancy

Hmm, maybe. If I recall the chronology correctly, HI44 went birther much later, only after the election.

370 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:37:13pm

re: #367 recusancy

It didn't hold a candle to noquarter though ;)

That place was the bottom of the barrel. I think ODS may have actually started there long before Obama even won a primary.

371 recusancy  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:39:23pm

re: #370 moderatelyradicalliberal

That place was the bottom of the barrel. I think ODS may have actually started there long before Obama even won a primary.

It's the origins of the "whitey tape"

372 Interesting Times  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:41:06pm

re: #282 karmic_inquisitor

Well then you must not have been aware of waterboarding at Gitmo and other places. We took prisoners based on their affiliation with a group and maintained that some of these individuals held information that would save lives if we knew the information, so we waterboarded them or used other "enhanced interrogation techniques" to get the info out of them.

Huh? Your initial analogy seemed to liken accommodation of political prisoners - i.e. respecting their religious beliefs - with allowing these medical conscience clauses, as if they're equivalent. I'm saying they're not, because respecting the religious beliefs of political or any other kind of prisoners (e.g. with special meals etc) in no way endangers the health and welfare of others. How you got from that to approval of torture is baffling to say the least o_O

I am amazed at how some here can reduce the claims of conscience of others to "so called" and do it with such a pious tone. Reminds me of the old style LGF.

I'm sorry, but if a medical professional wants to practice a religious belief that directly endangers the health and welfare of their patients, they have no business being in the medical profession. Do you honestly think the law should accommodate the pharmacist in this scenario? Forgive me if I sound blunt, but fuck "conscience clauses" sideways when they result in that kind of life-endangering garbage.

373 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 2:44:48pm

re: #371 recusancy

It's the origins of the "whitey tape"

LOL! The last person to say "whitey" was George Jefferson on the Jeffersons.

374 Lidane  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 3:23:02pm

re: #364 Sergey Romanov

Ugh. HI44 is downright nasty. Mind you, HRC's campaign was nasty and dishonest (all is forgiven, of course, but not forgotten), which is why DailyKos was right to support Obama, but HI44 was in a class of its own.

The troll that ran HI44 is the same one that caused a massive outpouring of wank at DKos by suggesting a writer's strike because of her butthurt over folks not kissing her ass. Mind you, this was when the real Hollywood writer's strike was going on, and people were PISSED at the comparison.

375 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 3:27:37pm

re: #374 Lidane

No, Alegre has her own blog, not really that vile. This is the guy behind HI44 is this one:

[Link: www.politico.com...]

376 Lidane  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 3:31:59pm

re: #375 Sergey Romanov

Ah. Since they sounded alike in their posts, I took Alegre and HI44 to be the same person. My mistake.

Alegre was insufferable in the primaries, and the "writer's strike" was the last straw for me. And from my perspective, her posts were interchangeable with HI44. She got on my last nerve.

377 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 3:55:48pm

I can't even read this, it makes me so angry.
So, consider yourself updinged.

378 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Feb 5, 2011 5:01:38pm

The actual text that allows hospitals to ignore the life saving procedure is located...under (g) Nondiscrimination on abortion?


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