Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak is expected to make a statement very soon… but the latest news is that Egypt’s information minister says Mubarak is not going to step down. A huge crowd is gathered in Tahrir Square…
No, he isn’t. Mubarak says he intends to remain in office until September.
3 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:22:09pm |
I pray with all my heart that results in something positive and more democratic for Egypt and that it can lead to more peace in the region. It is not in our hands at all at the moment.
| 5 |
Stanghazi Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:22:53pm |
KABOBfest KABOBfest
You think it's easy packing gold bullion bars into vintage Louis Vuitton luggage? #ReasonsMubarakIsLate
| 6 |
Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:23:33pm |
Nobody seems to be making a big deal of his personal fortune, estimated at $70 billion. Which is, oddly enough, about the sum of the foregn aid Egypt has received from the US during his tenure in office.
I assume he is busy negotiating on how much of that money he will get to keep.
| 7 |
Stanghazi Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:23:40pm |
13 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply
»
Patrick
PatrickInNC Patrick
#ReasonsMubarakIsLate Even dictators have Irritable Bowel Syndrome.
| 8 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:24:04pm |
This poll of the Egyptian public from the Washington Institute is a real eye-opener:
[Link: www.washingtoninstitute.org...]
Bottom line: we probably don't need to worry that the Muslim Brotherhood is going to take over. The Egyptian people don't want that - and a majority don't want to eliminate the treaty with Israel, either.
| 9 |
Bubblehead II Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:24:14pm |
re: #4 Gus 802
Thanks. I was going to try to find a live feed and you saved me (and the rest of us) the trouble.
| 10 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:24:41pm |
A man this completely in denial shall remain in denial until they pitch him into the Nile.
| 11 |
Gus Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:24:52pm |
re: #8 Charles
This poll of the Egyptian public from the Washington Institute is a real eye-opener:
[Link: www.washingtoninstitute.org...]
Bottom line: we probably don't need to worry that the Muslim Brotherhood is going to take over. The Egyptian people don't want that - and a majority don't want to eliminate the treaty with Israel, either.
Great news.
| 12 |
Stanghazi Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:25:04pm |
SultanAlQassemi Sultan Al Qassemi
Even without Mubarak's speech this is an historic day. See page grab of charges against corrupt former ministers. [Link: yfrog.com...]
| 13 |
lawhawk Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:25:07pm |
#reasonsmubarakislate - making travel plans on 3G can be such a pain. Memo to self - get a 4G phone.
| 14 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:25:21pm |
Still waiting for his Flash plugin to update #ReasonsMubarakIsLate
#ReasonsMubarakIsLate he went hunting with his "old friend" Dick Cheney
Still trying to figure out who the hell Justin Beiber is #ReasonsMubarakIsLate
Still in de Nile. #ReasonsMubarakIsLate
| 15 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:25:49pm |
re: #8 Charles
This poll of the Egyptian public from the Washington Institute is a real eye-opener:
[Link: www.washingtoninstitute.org...]
Bottom line: we probably don't need to worry that the Muslim Brotherhood is going to take over. The Egyptian people don't want that - and a majority don't want to eliminate the treaty with Israel, either.
Thank you. Finally someone acknowledging this. It's like no one wants to give Arabs a chance. The worst is always expected.
| 16 |
Fozzie Bear Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:26:01pm |
re: #6 ralphieboy
Nobody seems to be making a big deal of his personal fortune, estimated at $70 billion. Which is, oddly enough, about the sum of the foregn aid Egypt has received from the US during his tenure in office.
I assume he is busy negotiating on how much of that money he will get to keep.
I'll settle for FUCKING NONE OF IT YOU FUCKING THIEF.
That aspect of all this engenders almost as much rage in my soul toward Mubarak than the rest of his malfeasance combined. So much good for the Egyptian people could have been done with that money. Schools and hospitals could have been built. Jobs could have been created. Wells could have been dug.
Instead, we just literally bribed a dictator for 30 years. And nobody seems to give a shit.
| 17 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:26:14pm |
Is he going to announce in the square? Or from a secret bunker somewhere?
| 18 |
Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:26:23pm |
re: #8 Charles
This poll of the Egyptian public from the Washington Institute is a real eye-opener:
[Link: www.washingtoninstitute.org...]
Bottom line: we probably don't need to worry that the Muslim Brotherhood is going to take over. The Egyptian people don't want that - and a majority don't want to eliminate the treaty with Israel, either.
*ahem* the Right Wing Talking Point is that once the MB get even their foot in the door of Egyptian democracy, they will not stop until they have established the Caliphate of the Nile and invaded Israel.
| 19 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:26:24pm |
re: #8 Charles
This poll of the Egyptian public from the Washington Institute is a real eye-opener:
[Link: www.washingtoninstitute.org...]
Bottom line: we probably don't need to worry that the Muslim Brotherhood is going to take over. The Egyptian people don't want that - and a majority don't want to eliminate the treaty with Israel, either.
This is great reason to be hopeful.
Please God.
And percentages actually add up to 100! I have never seen that in a poll before.
| 20 |
Fozzie Bear Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:27:08pm |
re: #8 Charles
This poll of the Egyptian public from the Washington Institute is a real eye-opener:
[Link: www.washingtoninstitute.org...]
Bottom line: we probably don't need to worry that the Muslim Brotherhood is going to take over. The Egyptian people don't want that - and a majority don't want to eliminate the treaty with Israel, either.
To hear some tell it, when NPR reported exactly that information, they were siding with middle eastern hardline leftist Islamists.
| 21 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:27:29pm |
re: #19 LudwigVanQuixote
This is great reason to be hopeful.
Please God.
And percentages actually add up to 100! I have never seen that in a poll before.
my boss has always said the MB would have little chance, they may have been a force once but most Egyptians don't sympathize with them at all.
| 22 |
Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:27:40pm |
re: #19 LudwigVanQuixote
And percentages actually add up to 100! I have never seen that in a poll before.
More proof that it is fraudulent
/
| 23 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:28:02pm |
| 24 |
Political Atheist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:28:03pm |
re: #3 LudwigVanQuixote
I'll add something to your prayer from mine-May the brutality of the police become as much a part of the past as Mubarak does.
| 25 |
Varek Raith Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:28:08pm |
THERE ARE NO AMERICANS IN BAGHDAD
-Information Minister.
| 26 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:28:49pm |
re: #20 Fozzie Bear
To hear some tell it, when NPR reported exactly that information, they were siding with middle eastern hardline leftist Islamists.
Not quite Fozzie. I at least was talking specifically about the MB. I am deeply thrilled that you might be right about the larger turn of events. Like I said several days ago, I pray that you are correct.
| 27 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:28:51pm |
re: #8 Charles
This poll of the Egyptian public from the Washington Institute is a real eye-opener:
[Link: www.washingtoninstitute.org...]
Bottom line: we probably don't need to worry that the Muslim Brotherhood is going to take over. The Egyptian people don't want that - and a majority don't want to eliminate the treaty with Israel, either.
That needs to be front page post.
| 28 |
lawhawk Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:28:57pm |
re: #6 ralphieboy
That $70 billion claim is probably a severely inflated figure.
Bill Gates is reliably known to have a fortune just about half that figure - $40 billion.
Experts think Mubarak's worth closer to $2-$3 billion.
| 29 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:29:20pm |
re: #19 LudwigVanQuixote
This is great reason to be hopeful.
Please God.
And percentages actually add up to 100! I have never seen that in a poll before.
From your mouth...
| 30 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:29:40pm |
re: #20 Fozzie Bear
To hear some tell it, when NPR reported exactly that information, they were siding with middle eastern hardline leftist Islamists.
Soft bigotry of low expectations.
| 31 |
Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:29:56pm |
re: #28 lawhawk
That $70 billion claim is probably a severely inflated figure.
Bill Gates is reliably known to have a fortune just about half that figure - $40 billion.
Experts think Mubarak's worth closer to $2-$3 billion.
Okay, so only one year's worth of aid money and not 30...
| 32 |
celticdragon Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:30:50pm |
O/T
Mississippi doing some crazy shit again...
Controversies over honoring Confederate heritage are not uncommon in the South, but some activists in Mississippi are pushing the envelope even further. The Mississippi Division of Sons of Confederate Veterans is proposing a license plate that honors Confederate Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest, who was also an early leader of the Ku Klux Klan.
Following the Civil War, Forrest was involved with the very first incarnation of the KKK. He was so closely associated with the group’s formation that he is sometimes incorrectly referred to as the KKK’s founder — though he was quickly elected Grand Wizard, and began centralizing disparate KKK groups under his authority. He believed that while blacks were now free, they had to continue to toil quietly for white landowners. “I am not an enemy of the negro,” Forrest said. “We want him here among us; he is the only laboring class we have.”
[Link: www.balloon-juice.com...]
That would be the same Nathan Bedford Forrest who massacred American prisoners at Fort Pillow along with being an original member of the KKK...
Coming soon a to a license plate near you...
| 33 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:31:21pm |
Wow, the crowd is freaking enormous in Tahrir Square.
| 34 |
Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:31:30pm |
re: #28 lawhawk
That $70 billion claim is probably a severely inflated figure.
Bill Gates is reliably known to have a fortune just about half that figure - $40 billion.
Experts think Mubarak's worth closer to $2-$3 billion.
In a country with a per capita annual income of $5,400...
| 35 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:32:12pm |
re: #26 LudwigVanQuixote
Not quite Fozzie. I at least was talking specifically about the MB. I am deeply thrilled that you might be right about the larger turn of events. Like I said several days ago, I pray that you are correct.
Actually, you characterized interviewees on NPR as being "left-wing academics," and "spin-doctors" who believe in unicorns, when one of the things they were discussing was the political influence of the MB. All without even listening to what they actually said.
| 36 |
_RememberTonyC Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:33:06pm |
I hope some of this news is getting through to the brave resistance in Iran ...... their turn needs to come soon.
| 37 |
Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:33:42pm |
re: #36 _RememberTonyC
I hope some of this news is getting through to the brave resistance in Iran ... their turn needs to come soon.
Do they have a Muslim Brotherhood branch office there, too?
/
| 38 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:33:50pm |
re: #34 ralphieboy
In a country with a per capita annual income of $5,400...
How can you be so cruel? Don't you know he and his children are ENTITLED to gold-plated toothbrushes?
(Okay, I made that up, but the Sultan of something who was deposed did have a gold-plated toilet brush. Not sure why this would clean better.)
| 39 |
Buck Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:34:09pm |
re: #16 Fozzie Bear
Instead, we just literally bribed a dictator for 30 years. And nobody seems to give a shit.
Longer than that, the bribe started with Sadat.
At the time it was pretty much accepted that Egypt's dictator was being paid to not make war with Israel. If the largest army in the middle east could be held back by a billion dollars a year, and no other ME country would go to war without them, then it was thought to be money well spent.
A muslim leader could even find justification in the Koran for accepting this sort of tax.
| 40 |
celticdragon Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:34:45pm |
re: #36 _RememberTonyC
I hope some of this news is getting through to the brave resistance in Iran ... their turn needs to come soon.
The military in Iran is not believed to be quite as inmpartial as it has been in Egypt, unfortunately.
| 41 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:34:49pm |
re: #35 Talking Point Detective
Actually, you characterized interviewees on NPR as being "left-wing academics," and "spin-doctors" who believe in unicorns, when one of the things they were discussing was the political influence of the MB. All without even listening to what they actually said.
NO I said that the view that the MB has changed its stripes was nonsense and such with that post. Really, you are just plain wrong about them and frankly you hate being seen as wrong worse than you hate getting your facts straight.
| 42 |
Achilles Tang Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:34:57pm |
re: #8 Charles
This poll of the Egyptian public from the Washington Institute is a real eye-opener:
[Link: www.washingtoninstitute.org...]
Bottom line: we probably don't need to worry that the Muslim Brotherhood is going to take over. The Egyptian people don't want that - and a majority don't want to eliminate the treaty with Israel, either.
I can believe that poll, but I also believe that a majority in Iran don't want the Mullahs running their country, so dismissing the MB as irrelevant for this reason alone is not a good idea.
| 43 |
Stanghazi Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:35:09pm |
I posted this earlier, but it's worth looking at again.
Especially right now.
| 44 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:35:16pm |
re: #8 Charles
This poll of the Egyptian public from the Washington Institute is a real eye-opener:
[Link: www.washingtoninstitute.org...]
Bottom line: we probably don't need to worry that the Muslim Brotherhood is going to take over. The Egyptian people don't want that - and a majority don't want to eliminate the treaty with Israel, either.
That's very good news....
•Surprisingly, asked two different ways about the peace treaty with Israel, more support it (37%) than oppose
it (22%). Only 18% approve of either Hamas or Iran.
| 45 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:35:36pm |
re: #38 EmmmieG
How can you be so cruel? Don't you know he and his children are ENTITLED to gold-plated toothbrushes?
(Okay, I made that up, but the Sultan of something who was deposed did have a gold-plated toilet brush. Not sure why this would clean better.)
It matched the decor, I suppose.
| 46 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:35:44pm |
re: #28 lawhawk
That $70 billion claim is probably a severely inflated figure.
Bill Gates is reliably known to have a fortune just about half that figure - $40 billion.
Experts think Mubarak's worth closer to $2-$3 billion.
Arafat stole at least a billion from the EU, as of 2004.
More from other donors.
It's good to be a middler eastern despot.
//
| 47 |
_RememberTonyC Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:35:47pm |
| 48 |
Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:36:31pm |
re: #42 Naso Tang
I can believe that poll, but I also believe that a majority in Iran don't want the Mullahs running their country, so dismissing the MB as irrelevant for this reason alone is not a good idea.
Cue Right Wing Talking Point as per post #18
| 49 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:36:33pm |
re: #36 _RememberTonyC
I hope some of this news is getting through to the brave resistance in Iran ... their turn needs to come soon.
John Bolton is thinking their turn needs to come soon as well.
| 50 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:36:36pm |
| 51 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:36:37pm |
re: #45 SanFranciscoZionist
It matched the decor, I suppose.
If I had a billion dollars, the toilet brush would not be stored in plain sight.
I wouldn't see it. Ever.
But I don't have a billion dollars. Sigh.
| 52 |
_RememberTonyC Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:36:42pm |
re: #40 celticdragon
The military in Iran is not believed to be quite as inmpartial as it has been in Egypt, unfortunately.
not to mention the basijis ... and the revolutionary guard
| 53 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:36:48pm |
re: #38 EmmmieG
How can you be so cruel? Don't you know he and his children are ENTITLED to gold-plated toothbrushes?
(Okay, I made that up, but the Sultan of something who was deposed did have a gold-plated toilet brush. Not sure why this would clean better.)
Don't know if it cleans better but you'd sure feel good about it.
/
| 54 |
goddamnedfrank Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:37:00pm |
re: #8 Charles
This poll of the Egyptian public from the Washington Institute is a real eye-opener:
[Link: www.washingtoninstitute.org...]
Bottom line: we probably don't need to worry that the Muslim Brotherhood is going to take over. The Egyptian people don't want that - and a
majorityplurality don't want to eliminate the treaty with Israel, either.
37% is still less than half, 35% either don't know or refused to answer. Now if in the end those people break down 50/50 the pro treaty populace is over half, but I'm not sure this is an outcome that should be assumed in analysis. For now it's comforting enough that more people are willing to state they support it than want repeal.
| 55 |
engineer cat Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:37:06pm |
fre: #42 Naso Tang
I can believe that poll, but I also believe that a majority in Iran don't want the Mullahs running their country, so dismissing the MB as irrelevant for this reason alone is not a good idea.
iran: mullahs run country
united states: moolah runs country
| 56 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:37:21pm |
re: #39 Buck
A muslim leader could even find justification in the Koran for accepting this sort of tax.
Really? There's a passage in the Koran that allows leaders to accept bribes to not go to war and get their asses kicked again?
//Also, how pious is Mr. Mubarak?
| 57 |
_RememberTonyC Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:37:27pm |
re: #49 recusancy
John Bolton is thinking their turn needs to come soon as well.
who WOULDN'T want the iranian people to cast off the mullahs? that is a non partisan issue in my mind
| 58 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:37:46pm |
| 59 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:37:57pm |
| 60 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:38:01pm |
re: #57 _RememberTonyC
who WOULDN'T want the iranian people to cast off the mullahs? that is a non partisan issue in my mind
I was implying he wants to bomb Iran.
| 61 |
Varek Raith Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:38:03pm |
| 62 |
Achilles Tang Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:38:21pm |
re: #28 lawhawk
That $70 billion claim is probably a severely inflated figure.
Bill Gates is reliably known to have a fortune just about half that figure - $40 billion.
Experts think Mubarak's worth closer to $2-$3 billion.
I never believed that either. Too much to be hidden. Where did the number come from?
| 63 |
Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:38:26pm |
re: #56 SanFranciscoZionist
Really? There's a passage in the Koran that allows leaders to accept bribes to not go to war and get their asses kicked again?
//Also, how pious is Mr. Mubarak?
There are "Christian" leaders in this county who find Biblical passages to justify their bribes as well...
| 64 |
Fozzie Bear Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:39:04pm |
re: #38 EmmmieG
How can you be so cruel? Don't you know he and his children are ENTITLED to gold-plated toothbrushes?
(Okay, I made that up, but the Sultan of something who was deposed did have a gold-plated toilet brush. Not sure why this would clean better.)
If you are the leader of a country, and have a gold-plated toilet brush, and there is so much as a single person in your country who can't find a good job with full benefits, then i'm sorry to say, but a bullet to the head is too kind.
That kind of shit is over the top. If you use an object made out of enough precious metal to feed a family for years to clean your toilet, you don't deserve to breathe the same air as the people who support your opulence. You deserve a slow death.
| 65 |
Buck Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:39:15pm |
re: #56 SanFranciscoZionist
Really? There's a passage in the Koran that allows leaders to accept bribes to not go to war and get their asses kicked again?
//Also, how pious is Mr. Mubarak?
To accept a tax from the people of the book to offer them limited protection?
Yes, there is.
No, neither Mubarak or Sadat were pious, but they both tried to use that angle to their advantage.
| 66 |
lawhawk Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:39:24pm |
re: #8 Charles
The poll would support the fact that the protests had nothing to do with Israel and everything to do with Mubarak's economic failures, corruption, unemployment, and social repression.
So much for that particular noxious talking point.
The questions include approval/disapproval of the uprising in Ben Ali, Egyptian national assn for change, current govt in Iran, the Brotherhood in Egypt, the referendum in Sudan, and the Hamas govt in Gaza.
The strongest disapproval was for the referendum to divide Sudan (48%), followed by the MB in Egypt (37%) and the Hamas govt in Gaza (30%). 33% don't know about the MB in Egypt - which I read as being unsure about the MB.
On the question about Egyptian foreign policy priorities (including abrogating the Camp David Treaty), 18% think the Egyptians should join as a full partner in the resistance front against the Zionist entity, and 32% refused to respond to the foreign policy options.
Annulling the treaty was 27% to 37% (keeping it in place) - 17% refused to answer - 18% don't know. That's promising.
| 67 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:39:32pm |
re: #19 LudwigVanQuixote
This is great reason to be hopeful.
Please God.
And percentages actually add up to 100! I have never seen that in a poll before.
It helps when the include the percentages of people who refuse to answer the questions in their data.
| 68 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:39:38pm |
re: #58 recusancy
Wedeman has been a great journalist and resource through this. Him and Gala Gorani.
Yes I know, I've been following him since this started. Some of his tweeting has definitely been on the more sarcastic side at times. One of the reasons I like him.
Just can't tell with this one.
| 69 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:39:48pm |
re: #63 ralphieboy
There are "Christian" leaders in this county who find Biblical passages to justify their bribes as well...
MBF.
| 70 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:39:52pm |
re: #61 Varek Raith
Sarcasm.
Information Ministers, after Baghdad Bob, are not to be trusted.
;)
Baghdad Bob (also known as Comical Ali) had a job to do, and he did it. All the way to the end.
I have a DVD of his greatest hits.
| 71 |
_RememberTonyC Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:40:18pm |
re: #60 recusancy
I was implying he wants to bomb Iran.
hopefully not necessary ..... thanks to stuxnet and those mischievous Israeli computer guys ...
| 72 |
Varek Raith Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:40:25pm |
re: #70 SanFranciscoZionist
Baghdad Bob (also known as Comical Ali) had a job to do, and he did it. All the way to the end.
I have a DVD of his greatest hits.
That dude was awesome at his job.
XD
| 73 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:40:55pm |
| 74 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:41:01pm |
| 75 |
tradewind Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:41:21pm |
RT @mikeallen Arlen Specter, who knows Mubarak, says on MSNBC that a TRANSITION will be needed, and Biden has the contacts, is well-equipped
about 3 hours ago via TweetDeck
Retweeted by 4 people
What could go wrong?/
| 76 |
Lidane Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:41:36pm |
re: #42 Naso Tang
I can believe that poll, but I also believe that a majority in Iran don't want the Mullahs running their country, so dismissing the MB as irrelevant for this reason alone is not a good idea.
I don't think anyone is dismissing the MB as irrelevant. However, that poll pushes back against the right-wing paranoia that our only options in Egypt are Mubarak or the MB.
I have a friend who is Egyptian. She's on the phone daily with friends and family in Cairo, and everything she keeps talking about with respect to life on the ground there right now says that for the Egyptian people, this isn't about the MB or imposing religious law. It's about getting rid of Mubarak and having a real choice in who will lead them, and a real voice in their country's future. It's nice to see a poll bear that out.
| 77 |
justaminute Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:41:47pm |
re: #36 _RememberTonyC
I hope some of this news is getting through to the brave resistance in Iran ... their turn needs to come soon.
I posted this on the last thread and don't know if you caught it:
Mousavie and Karroubi called out the Green movement and freedom loving Iranians to come out Monday in support the people of Egypt. Karroubi was promptly arrested and placed in jail.
It would take all the people of Iran as in Egypt to get rid of that nasty government.
| 78 |
brownbagj Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:41:49pm |
re: #48 ralphieboy
Not a right wing talking point. Many people are "worried" about this. I am not worried about this for the USA but for the freedom of the people of Egypt.
My logic is that even if they only have 20% support - if they are the most organized their is a possibility that they could step into a vacuum.
This does not make me racist or anything of the sort. I believe in the VAST MAJORITY of Egyptians. My fear is that the VAST MAJORITY is not as organized as this radical group.
Back to your "left wing talking points..."
| 79 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:42:17pm |
re: #41 LudwigVanQuixote
NO I said that the view that the MB has changed its stripes was nonsense and such with that post. Really, you are just plain wrong about them and frankly you hate being seen as wrong worse than you hate getting your facts straight.
You characterized the interviewees as "left-wing academics and "spin doctors." It's right there in electrons on your screen if you go back to the thread.
How about, rathe than listening to what some spin doctor or left wing academic says about them,
And you didn't even listen to the interviews, because if you had, it is plainly obvious that your characterization is completely baseless.
| 80 |
Achilles Tang Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:42:23pm |
re: #48 ralphieboy
Cue Right Wing Talking Point as per post #18
Yes, I agree that Fox News seem to have little else to say in terms of what they call analysis, but that doesn't change the fact that the MB are no friends of ours and have at least as much influence in the Middle East as, say, the Tea Party does here (and no, I am not calling them equivalent in the way some might like to think).
| 81 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:43:22pm |
re: #64 Fozzie Bear
If you are the leader of a country, and have a gold-plated toilet brush, and there is so much as a single person in your country who can't find a good job with full benefits, then i'm sorry to say, but a bullet to the head is too kind.
That kind of shit is over the top. If you use an object made out of enough precious metal to feed a family for years to clean your toilet, you don't deserve to breathe the same air as the people who support your opulence. You deserve a slow death.
Yeah, when I read that my eyeballs popped out. I mean, it's the kind of...of..greed that boggles the mind. I also don't get people in this country who waste money.
I can understand (if you have obtained your money legitimately) spending a lot on something that is well made or show the skill of the maker. There's a certain logic in buying a couch made by a skilled craftsman and rewarding him or her for that skill.
I have a feeling that there are a lot of gold-plated toilet brushes in opulent palaces in 3rd world countries where the kids don't even all attend school or have three meals a day.
I hate that.
| 82 |
Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:43:52pm |
re: #80 Naso Tang
They are being held up as the bogeymen and further proof that Obama loves his brother Mooslims
| 83 |
tradewind Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:43:57pm |
re: #78 brownbagj
Follow the MB topic on twitter for a sense of just how totally divided administration officials are on this point.
Not reassuring.
| 84 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:44:20pm |
re: #65 Buck
To accept a tax from the people of the book to offer them limited protection?
Yes, there is.
No, neither Mubarak or Sadat were pious, but they both tried to use that angle to their advantage.
I think considering this a 'tax', is very shaky, especially since Surah 9 (which is what I assume you're talking about), specifies that those who pay shall 'feel subdued'. I do not think either Israel or the United States can be shown in that light at all, at all. Which doesn't mean that a determined politician might not try to create spin.
Did Mubarak or Sadat ever actually characterize their agreement as an imposition of jizya? I would be interested to see links, if so.
| 85 |
Achilles Tang Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:44:20pm |
re: #76 Lidane
I don't think anyone is dismissing the MB as irrelevant. However, that poll pushes back against the right-wing paranoia that our only options in Egypt are Mubarak or the MB.
I have a friend who is Egyptian. She's on the phone daily with friends and family in Cairo, and everything she keeps talking about with respect to life on the ground there right now says that for the Egyptian people, this isn't about the MB or imposing religious law. It's about getting rid of Mubarak and having a real choice in who will lead them, and a real voice in their country's future. It's nice to see a poll bear that out.
I think we have seen much that bore out that poll before it was taken.
| 86 |
tomg51spence Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:44:51pm |
Wow, the crowd is freaking enormous in Tahrir Square.
re: #33 Charles
That looks like a huge crowd to control, whether they are happy or upset with Mubarak. Hope it goes well.
| 87 |
Achilles Tang Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:44:53pm |
re: #82 ralphieboy
They are being held up as the bogeymen and further proof that Obama loves his brother Mooslims
As I said, I agree with that.
| 88 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:45:14pm |
re: #79 Talking Point Detective
Will you just let it drop. Really...
The fact is that any characterization of the MB as anything other than a vile terrorist think thank and source of radicalism is baseless and stupid.
| 89 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:45:20pm |
re: #78 brownbagj
Not a right wing talking point. Many people are "worried" about this. I am not worried about this for the USA but for the freedom of the people of Egypt.
My logic is that even if they only have 20% support - if they are the most organized their is a possibility that they could step into a vacuum.
This does not make me racist or anything of the sort. I believe in the VAST MAJORITY of Egyptians. My fear is that the VAST MAJORITY is not as organized as this radical group.
Back to your "left wing talking points..."
That is not without precedent.
Hizbollah was a marginal group years ago as well but they were very well organized.
Flash forward...
| 90 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:45:22pm |
re: #72 Varek Raith
That dude was awesome at his job.
XD
The standard against which all future Information Ministers must be judged.
| 91 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:45:26pm |
re: #66 lawhawk
The poll would support the fact that the protests had nothing to do with Israel and everything to do with Mubarak's economic failures, corruption, unemployment, and social repression.
So much for that particular noxious talking point.
The questions include approval/disapproval of the uprising in Ben Ali, Egyptian national assn for change, current govt in Iran, the Brotherhood in Egypt, the referendum in Sudan, and the Hamas govt in Gaza.
The strongest disapproval was for the referendum to divide Sudan (48%), followed by the MB in Egypt (37%) and the Hamas govt in Gaza (30%). 33% don't know about the MB in Egypt - which I read as being unsure about the MB.
On the question about Egyptian foreign policy priorities (including abrogating the Camp David Treaty), 18% think the Egyptians should join as a full partner in the resistance front against the Zionist entity, and 32% refused to respond to the foreign policy options.
Annulling the treaty was 27% to 37% (keeping it in place) - 17% refused to answer - 18% don't know. That's promising.
The relatively high percentage of people who refused to answer many of the questions does leave some degree of ambiguity in the approval/disapproval percentages on some of the questions. One could assume that a relatively high % of people who refused to respond did so because they have fairly radical beliefs. Highly speculative, though. It might be that they simply don't want to answer in ways that might anger the Mubarak regime - given that his secret police have a nasty habit of torturing dissenters.
| 92 |
Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:45:33pm |
Point is, once our dictator of choice is outta the picture, any sort of government is going to be less to our liking. The point of the poll is that these guys are not likely to seize power, nor would the people of Egypt let them: they would take to the streets again if it were to happen.
| 93 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:45:44pm |
re: #83 tradewind
Follow the MB topic on twitter for a sense of just how totally divided administration officials are on this point.
Not reassuring.
The administration knows best... let the experts run foreign policy.
| 95 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:46:34pm |
re: #28 lawhawk
That $70 billion claim is probably a severely inflated figure.
Bill Gates is reliably known to have a fortune just about half that figure - $40 billion.
Experts think Mubarak's worth closer to $2-$3 billion.
Which is bad enough don't you think?
| 96 |
Lidane Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:46:47pm |
re: #85 Naso Tang
I think we have seen much that bore out that poll before it was taken.
Well sure. But there's still all this right-wing paranoid bullshit about how our only options are Mubarak or the Caliphate, led by the Muslim Brotherhood. It's all over talk radio and the blogs.
Having a poll of the Egyptian people that pushes back against that is valuable.
| 97 |
Stanghazi Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:46:59pm |
ZerlinaM Zerlina Maxwell
by AliDahmash
OMG they are talking about #ReasonsMubarakIsLate on Al Jazeera English live lol
| 98 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:47:06pm |
re: #90 SanFranciscoZionist
The standard against which all future Information Ministers must be judged.
I think Beck gives him a run for the money.
| 99 |
_RememberTonyC Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:47:22pm |
re: #77 justaminute
I posted this on the last thread and don't know if you caught it:
Mousavie and Karroubi called out the Green movement and freedom loving Iranians to come out Monday in support the people of Egypt. Karroubi was promptly arrested and placed in jail.
It would take all the people of Iran as in Egypt to get rid of that nasty government.
At some point they need to give it another shot ... the fate of the world may well depend on it ... G-d be with the brave ones in iran.
| 101 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:47:34pm |
No Dracula mood lighting today. He looks almost human.
| 102 |
tradewind Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:47:36pm |
re: #93 Walter L. Newton
You're right. That's always worked out well in the past. Think of how well the CIA and FBI have always collaborated....
Oh wait.
| 103 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:47:52pm |
re: #96 Lidane
Well sure. But there's still all this right-wing paranoid bullshit about how our only options are Mubarak or the Caliphate, led by the Muslim Brotherhood. It's all over talk radio and the blogs.
Having a poll of the Egyptian people that pushes back against that is valuable.
It's the same fear that Mubarack used to hold power. He had to build them up as the worse alternative.
| 104 |
tomg51spence Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:48:12pm |
Hats off to the Egyptians - in some countries that crowd would have been an irresistible bombing target.
| 105 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:48:21pm |
Doesn't sound like a resignation so far.
| 106 |
_RememberTonyC Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:48:29pm |
re: #101 Charles
No Dracula mood lighting today. He looks almost human.
looks like an older version of Sarkozy
| 107 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:48:33pm |
re: #98 LudwigVanQuixote
I think Beck gives him a run for the money.
Beck is not actually a government official, and is crazy. I don't think Baghdad Bob was nuts, I think he was simply continuing to put out the appropriate propaganda until it was it all over.
| 108 |
TedStriker Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:48:44pm |
re: #65 Buck
Funny...I didn't know that, collectively, the American taxpayer were "people of the book", Buck.
/seems I've been missing out on some ZOG perks...
| 109 |
tradewind Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:48:46pm |
re: #97 Stanley Sea
He wants to leave at 10 on the 10th.
Big into numerology.
| 110 |
Feline Fearless Leader Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:49:11pm |
re: #61 Varek Raith
Sarcasm.
Information Ministers, after Baghdad Bob, are not to be trusted.
;)
Information Technology Ministers have been under suspicion ever since the first one promoted using an Apple...
| 111 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:49:16pm |
re: #88 LudwigVanQuixote
Will you just let it drop. Really...
The fact is that any characterization of the MB as anything other than a vile terrorist think thank and source of radicalism is baseless and stupid.
That is absolutely true.
The fact that their membership includes 'moderates' is not relevant.
The Catholics have many adherents that cover the entire political spectrum.
The guy in charge however, is the guy who makes the rules. Differing views are tolerated but make no mistake- the best you can hope for is a 'suggestion box'.
| 112 |
Sionainn Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:49:23pm |
I'm getting a very bad feeling that this isn't going to end well.
| 113 |
Bubblehead II Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:49:27pm |
He isn't stepping down. Things are going to get ugly.
| 114 |
brownbagj Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:49:27pm |
re: #103 recusancy
They, the MB, are a horrible alternative.
I hope that the Egyptians get true freedom. I want Mubarak out and MB to stay out.
Is this somehow wrong?
| 115 |
Lidane Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:49:42pm |
re: #98 LudwigVanQuixote
I think Beck gives him a run for the money.
Baghdad Bob > Glenn Beck.
I think the only other person who could come close in the delusional PR department is whoever runs Kim Jong Il's press.
| 116 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:49:43pm |
re: #109 tradewind
He wants to leave at 10 on the 10th.
Big into numerology.
Great. A superstitious, past-his-use-by-date dictator. Just what we always wanted.
| 117 |
_RememberTonyC Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:49:59pm |
sounds like he took a shot at US a minute ago
| 119 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:50:10pm |
re: #114 brownbagj
They, the MB, are a horrible alternative.
I hope that the Egyptians get true freedom. I want Mubarak out and MB to stay out.
Is this somehow wrong?
It's wrong to believe them the only alternative to Mubarack.
| 120 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:50:23pm |
Oh great......
This is the same thing he said last time....
| 121 |
tomg51spence Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:50:35pm |
Not run coming elections
remain in power until election in September?
| 124 |
lawhawk Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:50:51pm |
re: #66 lawhawk
One caveat/criticism of the poll. We aren't told the margin of error, but I've run some numbers and it is a little smaller than it should be to be truly representative with a reasonable margin of error.
To get a margin of error of +/-4 at a 95% confidence level, 600 people needed to be polled.
This poll, with 343 people, would result in a much higher margin of error - at +/- 5.25, which I guess is close enough.
| 125 |
tradewind Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:50:54pm |
| 126 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:50:57pm |
Mubarak out! MB out! Egyptians in!
Does that cover it?
| 127 |
brownbagj Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:51:06pm |
re: #119 recusancy
I don't think they are, but I do think that they are a threat to a peaceful and free Egypt.
| 128 |
RadicalModerate Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:51:09pm |
Good grief. He giving a speech that sounds like a middle-management pep talk to employees who are pissed off over their being overworked/underpaid.
| 129 |
Lidane Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:51:14pm |
re: #114 brownbagj
They, the MB, are a horrible alternative.
I hope that the Egyptians get true freedom. I want Mubarak out and MB to stay out.
Is this somehow wrong?
Newsflash-- the MB aren't the only alternative to Mubarak.
| 130 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:51:25pm |
| 132 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:51:39pm |
re: #121 tomg51spence
Not run coming elections
remain in power until election in September?
Yeah, that was his LAST offer, and they didn't go away then, either.
And now they have showering facilities in Tahrir Square.
Fun and games, people, fun and games.
| 137 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:52:40pm |
The kids gave him too much time to get his shit together.
| 138 |
Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:52:56pm |
Wait, If I have to say I was wrong about being wrong.... will the universe become cracked and silence will fall?
| 140 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:53:03pm |
re: #129 Lidane
Newsflash-- the MB aren't the only alternative to Mubarak.
Problem is, it's not clear exactly what other alternatives there are.
| 141 |
tradewind Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:53:39pm |
| 142 |
tomg51spence Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:53:52pm |
The background noise seems to be building?
| 143 |
brownbagj Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:54:51pm |
Seriously, my concern is that is cases like this, hell even in US politics, the most organized group usually wins.
This does not mean the majority support them. This does not mean it will happen. It DOES mean that the 20% can exert more force immediately due to their organization.
All this would mean is more suffering for Egypt. I don't want that.
| 144 |
Tumulus11 Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:54:59pm |
. Pres. Mubarak is not stepping down. Already the crowd in Tahrir Square is screaming in outrage.
| 145 |
tradewind Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:55:17pm |
re: #129 Lidane
True. Steve Martin can dust off his King Tut routine.....
| 146 |
_RememberTonyC Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:55:20pm |
Will "Google Guy" be giving the rebuttal? His take should be interesting ...
| 147 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:55:22pm |
NickKristof Nicholas Kristof
Dictators have an amazing capacity to fool themselves and be oblivious to reality. As #Mubarak is showing.
| 148 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:55:28pm |
re: #140 SanFranciscoZionist
Problem is, it's not clear exactly what other alternatives there are.
Actually, a coalition government might be the best thing. It works in other countries.
| 149 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:55:50pm |
When this speech is over, Mubarak is going to sit back and enjoy a cold, tall glass of prune juice.
In fairness, he's earned it.
| 150 |
lawhawk Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:55:57pm |
He's busy talking about amending the constitution, which he can abrogate and ignore under his emergency law declaration, so that's not exactly changing the political condition now.
He's again talking about not running for reelection and changing who can run for the position.
Not stepping down.
| 151 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:56:15pm |
re: #88 LudwigVanQuixote
Will you just let it drop. Really...
The fact is that any characterization of the MB as anything other than a vile terrorist think thank and source of radicalism is baseless and stupid.
And daggone it, anyone who disagrees, and says that your characterization is simplistic and inaccurately monolithic is a "spin doctor" and a "left-wing academic," no matter their degree of expertise, no matter the amount if in-depth research they've done in the region and with the players at hand.
And you don't even have to listen to what they say in order to figure that out.
Got it.
| 152 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:56:16pm |
This is going to turn ugly. The only way Mubarak would have the balls to say that he isn't going is with the support of the military or the police or both.
The people will not stand for it and the serious oppression will start now.
| 153 |
tradewind Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:56:34pm |
re: #136 _RememberTonyC
This so beats Super Bowl XLV.........
| 154 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:57:14pm |
re: #140 SanFranciscoZionist
Problem is, it's not clear exactly what other alternatives there are.
Thing is, all my life, whenever the corrupt government is on its way out, and we're worried about Creepy Group X, and people say, "No, real democracy is a possibility", and there's no actual Cory Aquino or Vaclav Havel on the ground to take over, it usually means that real democracy is not a possibility, and that Creepy Group X will be in power by dawn.
I am not opposed to breaking this streak, by any means, but that lack of Cory or Vaclav does worry me.
| 155 |
lawhawk Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:57:16pm |
re: #152 LudwigVanQuixote
He's doubling down - since this seems to be a rehash of his last speech.
Now, let's see how the opposition calls.
The wildcard is the army. As it always has been.
| 156 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:57:17pm |
| 157 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:57:30pm |
re: #152 LudwigVanQuixote
This is going to turn ugly. The only way Mubarak would have the balls to say that he isn't going is with the support of the military or the police or both.
The people will not stand for it and the serious oppression will start now.
Maybe...
I predict the demonstrations will come to an end tonight or tomorrow, for the most part.
Economic necessity and all that.
| 158 |
tomg51spence Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:58:01pm |
Al Jazeera O'Reilly - save us from this!
//
| 159 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:58:13pm |
re: #149 researchok
When this speech is over, Mubarak is going to sit back and enjoy a cold, tall glass of prune juice.
In fairness, he's earned it.
Maybe a prune juice and a shot of something expensive.
| 160 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:58:14pm |
re: #151 Talking Point Detective
And daggone it, anyone who disagrees, and says that your characterization is simplistic and inaccurately monolithic is a "spin doctor" and a "left-wing academic," no matter their degree of expertise, no matter the amount if in-depth research they've done in the region and with the players at hand.
And you don't even have to listen to what they say in order to figure that out.
Got it.
Well that is because they have spawned numerous terrorist organizations, have rivers of blood on their hands and call for the death of all Jews and the destruction of Israel even today. Dude, I've been patient with your whining, but you are about to get a full blown Ludwig get your head out of your ass.
| 161 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:58:21pm |
re: #150 lawhawk
He's busy talking about amending the constitution, which he can abrogate and ignore under his emergency law declaration, so that's not exactly changing the political condition now.
He's again talking about not running for reelection and changing who can run for the position.
Not stepping down.
This could get extremely ugly. Why would he make this kind of an announcement after he new that expectations were being built up that he would step down. The idea that he would deliberately be provoking an angry response to justify force comes immediately to mind. This guy has been an oppressive dictator for decades, and his regime relies on a vast secret police force that regularly tortures many people.
| 162 |
Summer Seale Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:58:35pm |
How can somebody who only repeats the same song over and over again sound so out of tune?
| 163 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:58:42pm |
re: #155 lawhawk
He's doubling down - since this seems to be a rehash of his last speech.
Now, let's see how the opposition calls.
The wildcard is the army. As it always has been.
Do you think he would be this balsy without some form of support from the Army?
| 164 |
tradewind Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:58:42pm |
re: #137 Decatur Deb
'Oh you need Timin....ticka ticka ticka good
....timin.....'
| 166 |
Varek Raith Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:58:49pm |
re: #157 researchok
Maybe...
I predict the demonstrations will come to an end tonight or tomorrow, for the most part.
Economic necessity and all that.
I suspect you'd be very wrong about that.
| 167 |
lawhawk Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:58:52pm |
Continuing the national dialogue?
Really?
Mubarak has been busy ignoring the fact that the people are crying out for him to go because he's been a miserable failure.
He's busy talking down to the crowds, and the crowd isn't going to have anything of this.
| 168 |
tradewind Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:59:15pm |
re: #156 recusancy
It's very deep, and I don't have the time.
| 169 |
RadicalModerate Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:59:28pm |
re: #138 bloodstar
Wait, If I have to say I was wrong about being wrong... will the universe become cracked and silence will fall?
Don't know about that -but...
Don't you think that he looks tired?
| 170 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:59:38pm |
re: #157 researchok
Maybe...
I predict the demonstrations will come to an end tonight or tomorrow, for the most part.
Economic necessity and all that.
I'll bet that they won't.
| 171 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Feb 10, 2011 12:59:50pm |
re: #165 Obdicut
Maybe Google Guy is Cory.
Maybe. Could be.
The new Cory/Vaclav/Lech Walesa has to be
1. Known 2. Popular 3. Honest 4. Marginally competent
| 172 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:00:00pm |
re: #154 SanFranciscoZionist
Thing is, all my life, whenever the corrupt government is on its way out, and we're worried about Creepy Group X, and people say, "No, real democracy is a possibility", and there's no actual Cory Aquino or Vaclav Havel on the ground to take over, it usually means that real democracy is not a possibility, and that Creepy Group X will be in power by dawn.
I am not opposed to breaking this streak, by any means, but that lack of Cory or Vaclav does worry me.
Exactly.
This is less of a 'revolution' and more of an 'exchange'.
They just don't know it yet.
They believe elections ande not institutions are democracy.
They have a lot to learn.
| 173 |
_RememberTonyC Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:00:02pm |
re: #167 lawhawk
Continuing the national dialogue?
Really?
Mubarak has been busy ignoring the fact that the people are crying out for him to go because he's been a miserable failure.
He's busy talking down to the crowds, and the crowd isn't going to have anything of this.
he called them "children" and himself "father."
| 174 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:00:20pm |
re: #154 SanFranciscoZionist
Thing is, all my life, whenever the corrupt government is on its way out, and we're worried about Creepy Group X, and people say, "No, real democracy is a possibility", and there's no actual Cory Aquino or Vaclav Havel on the ground to take over, it usually means that real democracy is not a possibility, and that Creepy Group X will be in power by dawn.
I am not opposed to breaking this streak, by any means, but that lack of Cory or Vaclav does worry me.
My position entirely.
| 175 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:00:20pm |
re: #155 lawhawk
He's doubling down - since this seems to be a rehash of his last speech.
Now, let's see how the opposition calls.
The wildcard is the army. As it always has been.
The biggest tab in his rolodex is "G for General".
| 176 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:00:22pm |
sounds like this is going to end with either a lot of bloodshed or Mubarak's head on a pike outside the presidential HQ.
| 177 |
tradewind Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:00:29pm |
re: #155 lawhawk
Isn't the guy waiting in the green room army too?
Same song, second you-know-what.
| 178 |
Buck Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:00:46pm |
re: #149 researchok
When this speech is over, Mubarak is going to sit back and enjoy a cold, tall glass of prune juice.
In fairness, he's earned it.
I think his Bull needs it.
| 181 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:01:28pm |
re: #160 LudwigVanQuixote
Well that is because they have spawned numerous terrorist organizations, have rivers of blood on their hands and call for the death of all Jews and the destruction of Israel even today. Dude, I've been patient with your whining, but you are about to get a full blown Ludwig get your head out of your ass.
Maybe you're just too subtle.
/
| 182 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:01:33pm |
NickKristof Nicholas Kristof
Mubarak says vaguely that he'll lift emergency law some time in the future when time is right...with help of Tooth Fairy.
3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
»
Anderson Cooper
andersoncooper Anderson Cooper
by 3arabawy
Mubarak's lies continue.
| 183 |
lawhawk Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:01:41pm |
re: #163 LudwigVanQuixote
He's probably got more than a few generals who are willing to back him (because their power is tied to his future) so they're putting their eggs in that basket. But they, and he, could be deluding themselves that they've got more support than they really do.
| 185 |
Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:02:11pm |
Any bets on how long before someone says this is somehow Obama's fault?
I give it another 5 minutes.
| 186 |
Kilroy01 Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:02:16pm |
The demands of the people...
(Which I'm ignoring..)
Blah Blah Blah..
Long live Egypt
I'm going no where...
| 187 |
tradewind Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:02:24pm |
re: #167 lawhawk
Re a national dialogue:
We've seen Tahrir, and Cairo: what's going on in the rest ( read: majority) of Egypt?
| 188 |
Tumulus11 Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:02:45pm |
. The crowd is screaming as one and it's not friendly.
| 189 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:02:46pm |
re: #173 _RememberTonyC
he called them "children" and himself "father."
I think it sounds less obnoxious in Arabic, or at least, in Egypt. But I don't think he understands that the kids are thirty, and tired of paying the bills and sleeping on the couch while still following Dad's rules.
| 190 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:02:53pm |
re: #170 Jadespring
I'll bet that they won't.
I'd be happy to be wrong, but if Mubarak is taking this stand, he's got the military behind him.
| 191 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:03:00pm |
This translator is getting completely incoherent.
| 192 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:03:38pm |
re: #191 Charles
This translator is getting completely incoherent.
I submit it was Mubarak who was becoming less coherent.
| 193 |
Varek Raith Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:03:42pm |
re: #190 researchok
I'd be happy to be wrong, but if Mubarak is taking this stand, he's got the military behind him.
Or he thinks he does.
He may have the support of some generals but not the grunts.
Or not.
| 194 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:03:44pm |
re: #187 tradewind
Re a national dialogue:
We've seen Tahrir, and Cairo: what's going on in the rest ( read: majority) of Egypt?
There's been quite a few goings on in other parts over the past couple of days. It's wasn't going away.
| 195 |
Lidane Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:03:44pm |
Looking through that poll of Egyptians again, they seem to favor Amr Moussa as the one to succeed Mubarak.
All I know about this guy is from his Wikipedia page. Anyone know anything about him at all?
| 197 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:04:05pm |
re: #160 LudwigVanQuixote
Well that is because they have spawned numerous terrorist organizations, have rivers of blood on their hands and call for the death of all Jews and the destruction of Israel even today. Dude, I've been patient with your whining, but you are about to get a full blown Ludwig get your head out of your ass.
My brother, you're entitled to respond in whatever way you want. You inaccurately characterized the interviewees. You dismissed anything they might or might not have said simply because they were interviewed on NPR - without even listening to the interviews. Then you inaccurately claimed that you only spoke to their defending the MB, when they never did such. No matter how you respond will change none of that.
| 198 |
Buck Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:04:06pm |
re: #185 bloodstar
Any bets on how long before someone says this is somehow Obama's fault?
I give it another 5 minutes.
You missed it.... What do you think Mubarak meant when he said: "I will never accept something dictated from a foreign source."
If not Obama, then who else do you think he meant?
| 199 |
HAL2010 Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:04:38pm |
The crowd is furious!
He's not going, the absolute bastard!
Here is predicting that it will end like it ended with Nicolae Ceauşescu.
| 200 |
_RememberTonyC Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:05:16pm |
re: #198 Buck
You missed it... What do you think Mubarak meant when he said: "I will never accept something dictated from a foreign source."
If not Obama, then who else do you think he meant?
that seemed pretty clear to me
| 201 |
tradewind Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:05:18pm |
re: #197 Talking Point Detective
(Be careful. He's been known to go all sideways when provoked).
| 202 |
_RememberTonyC Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:05:53pm |
Friday Prayers tomorrow are going to be something to see ...
| 203 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:06:10pm |
re: #198 Buck
You missed it... What do you think Mubarak meant when he said: "I will never accept something dictated from a foreign source."
If not Obama, then who else do you think he meant?
Israel, Hamas, Quatar and whole bunch of other boogeyman people that the State propaganda has been pointing to over the past couple of weeks. It's not just the US.
| 204 |
Varek Raith Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:06:38pm |
Oy....
There will be a crackdown or storming of the palace.
| 205 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:06:58pm |
re: #204 Varek Raith
Oy...
There will be a crackdown or storming of the palace.
That is what I think.
| 206 |
justaminute Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:07:00pm |
I am scared there is going to be more blood spilled than the Green Revolution in Iran. If it is going the way of The Iranian revolution in '78-'79 it took four months of misery. This is going to be televised and this is going to make you sick.
| 207 |
tradewind Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:07:09pm |
re: #198 Buck
Poor Mubarak./
Torn between us : ' Go '
And the Saudis ' Stay '
/Go/Stay/
Wonder who he'd rather lose face with?
| 208 |
Kilroy01 Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:07:10pm |
I have lived for this nation...
(And made a few billion along the way)
| 209 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:07:25pm |
re: #190 researchok
I'd be happy to be wrong, but if Mubarak is taking this stand, he's got the military behind him.
Or, they're offering him something if he'll play for time.
| 210 |
Tumulus11 Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:07:48pm |
'I will not separate from the soil until I'm buried underneath.'
// Mubarak
. Careful what you wish for.
| 211 |
Summer Seale Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:07:54pm |
I'm wondering if he promised Obama earlier on one thing and then changed his mind later and re-wrote his speech and statement just a few hours ago, which is why it took so long to broadcast?
It sure sounds like it.
| 212 |
Buck Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:07:57pm |
re: #203 Jadespring
Israel, Hamas, Quatar and whole bunch of other boogeyman people that the State propaganda has been pointing to over the past couple of weeks. It's not just the US.
Well I think that would have been foreign sources then. I think "a foreign source" is much more directly aimed.
| 213 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:08:01pm |
One last comment before I go and take a nap to try to finally kick this virus:
He could at least sing "Don't Cry For Me, Argentina," and give them some entertainment value.
| 214 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:08:03pm |
My tv is RAAAGING!
Not going to go well here...
| 216 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:08:55pm |
re: #196 tomg51spence
15 minutes of I'm wonderful and staying
If he starts singing "Don't Cry for Me Junhuriya", someone let me know so I can turn the TV on quick.
| 217 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:09:18pm |
re: #213 EmmmieG
One last comment before I go and take a nap to try to finally kick this virus:
He could at least sing "Don't Cry For Me, Argentina," and give them some entertainment value.
At least he didn't have the gold toilet bowl scrubber at his side as the royal scepter.
| 218 |
Lidane Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:10:04pm |
re: #198 Buck
If not Obama, then who else do you think he meant?
It doesn't just have to be Obama. Given the worldwide criticism he's faced lately, he could be lashing out in general to everyone outside of Egypt telling him to go.
BTW, he could also be talking about ElBaradei. Since ElBaradei has lived abroad for many years, he's in a very easy position to be painted as foreign or as living outside of the Egyptian mainstream.
| 219 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:10:29pm |
re: #213 EmmmieG
One last comment before I go and take a nap to try to finally kick this virus:
He could at least sing "Don't Cry For Me, Argentina," and give them some entertainment value.
GMTA
| 220 |
Stanghazi Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:10:39pm |
acarvin Andy Carvin
RT @RamyYaacoub: OnPhoneW/ friend @ Tahrir - Earth shattering roars "Leave, Leave, Leave" #Mubarakspeech #Egypt #Jan25
| 221 |
Feline Fearless Leader Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:10:41pm |
re: #217 researchok
At least he didn't have the gold toilet bowl scrubber at his side as the royal scepter.
Singing "I'm Gonna Flush That Revolt Right Out of My Hair"?
/
| 222 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:10:43pm |
re: #212 Buck
Well I think that would have been foreign sources then. I think "a foreign source" is much more directly aimed.
Look for one you're going by translation and two if you've paid any attention to the PO PO coming out of the gov't and State tv over the past couple of weeks you'd know that the 'foreign sources' reference was not just the US. People were getting beat up for being suspected Israeli spies because of it.
| 223 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:12:43pm |
re: #211 Summer
I'm wondering if he promised Obama earlier on one thing and then changed his mind later and re-wrote his speech and statement just a few hours ago, which is why it took so long to broadcast?
It sure sounds like it.
That's exactly what I was thinking too.
| 224 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:12:48pm |
Translation of Mubarak speech:
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
| 225 |
Buck Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:12:49pm |
re: #218 Lidane
It doesn't just have to be Obama. Given the worldwide criticism he's faced lately, he could be lashing out in general to everyone outside of Egypt telling him to go.
BTW, he could also be talking about ElBaradei. Since ElBaradei has lived abroad for many years, he's in a very easy position to be painted as foreign or as living outside of the Egyptian mainstream.
He could be, but it is much more likely the line was directed to resonate any anti american sentiment in the crowd.
I am just saying you don't have to wait for someone to Blame Obama.... I think Mubarak already is trying it.
| 226 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:12:50pm |
re: #222 Jadespring
Look for one you're going by translation and two if you've paid any attention to the PO PO coming out of the gov't and State tv over the past couple of weeks you'd know that the 'foreign sources' reference was not just the US. People were getting beat up for being suspected Israeli spies because of it.
'Foreign influences' in the Arab world pretty much always at least includes Israel.
| 227 |
General Nimrod Bodfish Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:13:59pm |
A tweet that the BBC has posted:
2106: Nevine tweets: " BRAVO Mubarak: gather up an angry 3 million in Tahrir and make them even more angry!"
Quite an appropriate tweet, IMO.
| 228 |
lawhawk Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:14:09pm |
re: #218 Lidane
Or the Google exec whose postings galvanized the Egyptian populace into action... Wael Ghomin.
| 229 |
RadicalModerate Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:14:13pm |
re: #204 Varek Raith
Oy...
There will be a crackdown or storming of the palace.
Better question: Given that there have been multiple Egyptian military officials speaking as if they had indeed assumed power, via a negotiated agreement, how do you think they will take this speech?
| 230 |
Buck Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:14:55pm |
re: #222 Jadespring
Look for one you're going by translation and two if you've paid any attention to the PO PO coming out of the gov't and State tv over the past couple of weeks you'd know that the 'foreign sources' reference was not just the US. People were getting beat up for being suspected Israeli spies because of it.
I heard the translation to be "source", single. I think that is relevant, but OK you disagree obviously.
| 231 |
tradewind Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:14:56pm |
They'd better break the tension and set up the projector.
| 232 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:15:14pm |
Crowd's getting nuts. A LOT of angry people there. This could turn out badly.
| 233 |
Lidane Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:15:42pm |
re: #228 lawhawk
Or the Google exec whose postings galvanized the Egyptian populace into action... Wael Ghomin.
Yes! I was trying to think of his name. That guy has become a lightning rod and a bit of a hero to younger Egyptians. There are Facebook fan pages for him and everything.
| 234 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:16:02pm |
re: #160 LudwigVanQuixote
Dude, I've been patient with your whining, but you are about to get a full blown Ludwig get your head out of your ass.
re: #79 Talking Point Detective
NO I said that the view that the MB has changed its stripes was nonsense and such with that post..
How about, rathe than listening to what some spin doctor or left wing academic says about them,
And I have to say, it's interesting that you saw fit to downding the above post - without addressing the fact that is shows you contradicted yourself - and to instead respond by "threatening" me.
Anyway, gotta go take the dog for an extended walk in the park. I'll check back later to see how horrible a fate I endured as you ranted at me while I was in the woods.
| 235 |
calochortus Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:16:58pm |
Wow. Just wow. How is it possible for Mubarak to be so completely out of touch?
| 236 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:17:27pm |
re: #201 tradewind
(Be careful. He's been known to go all sideways when provoked).
I've experienced it before. It was kind of amusing, actually.
| 237 |
RadicalModerate Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:17:36pm |
Oh dear. CNN reporter just said that members of the crowd are saying "Blood of the martyrs, we're going to the Presidential Palace".
| 238 |
General Nimrod Bodfish Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:17:37pm |
My prediction:
We're going to see another media crackdown, followed by violent actions against the protesters, ala Tienanmen Square.
| 239 |
brownbagj Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:17:43pm |
re: #235 calochortus
He is not out of touch. He doesn't give a damn about the people of Egypt.
| 240 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:18:02pm |
re: #237 RadicalModerate
Oh dear. CNN reporter just said that members of the crowd are saying "Blood of the martyrs, we're going to the Presidential Palace".
That doesn't sound good.
| 241 |
lawhawk Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:18:12pm |
#
2110: Egyptian academic Mamoun Fandy says Mr Mubarak's words "will not wash". He says: "These young people are too smart. I don't know whether the disaster will start tonight or tomorrow, but we're in for a huge confrontation. Whoever wrote that speech is living in a bubble."
Emphasized for truth.
| 242 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:18:26pm |
re: #239 brownbagj
He is not out of touch. He doesn't give a damn about the people of Egypt.
You'd think he might give a damn about possibly being torn to shreds by the people of Egypt. They're getting cranky.
| 243 |
tomg51spence Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:18:40pm |
Al Jazeera says crowd of several thousand has left the gathering place is on move towards a military base, and they are no happy....
| 244 |
Fozzie Bear Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:18:42pm |
re: #70 SanFranciscoZionist
Baghdad Bob (also known as Comical Ali) had a job to do, and he did it. All the way to the end.
I have a DVD of his greatest hits.
You have to admire his work ethic. The dude was standing on rooftops, while missiles and bullets whizzed by him, and just kept saying what he was sent there to say. I remember feeling bad for the guy. Imagine what would have happened to his family if he had said "no, i'm not saying that". Saddam wasn't known for taking kindly to insubordination.
| 245 |
brownbagj Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:18:43pm |
re: #236 Talking Point Detective
Well, I assume if you keep poking him you will get what you want.
| 246 |
RadicalModerate Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:18:47pm |
re: #238 commadore183
My prediction:
We're going to see another media crackdown, followed by violent actions against the protesters, ala Tienanmen Square.
One problem with that. Unlike China and Tienanmen Square, Mubarak does NOT have the unequivocal backing of his military.
| 247 |
General Nimrod Bodfish Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:19:01pm |
Hope a crackdown doesn't happen, but it wouldn't surprise me if one did happen. Hope this can be resolved peacefully.
| 249 |
Cheese Eating Victory Monkey Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:19:09pm |
re: #8 Charles
Those polls are very reassuring except for the one on page 9, where 33% want to join the "resistance". If we add in the neo-Ottoman model, 49% want Egypt to change their foreign policy orientation to an anti-Western direction.
| 250 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:19:18pm |
re: #240 SanFranciscoZionist
That doesn't sound good.
It wouldn't be surprising though...
CNN said they've seen people already leaving and heading towards the Palace. Only a few hundred so far.
| 251 |
lawhawk Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:19:26pm |
re: #235 calochortus
He's probably relying on his army buddies and generals who are telling him that they've got the situation under control, and that they can rein in the crowds.
I fear this is going to get a whole lot uglier in very short order.
| 252 |
calochortus Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:19:32pm |
re: #239 brownbagj
I agree he doesn't care about most Egyptians, but I assume he has a tender regard for his own well being. The military is apparently somewhat split on the issue and the crowds are howling. I maintain he is profoundly out of touch,
| 253 |
brownbagj Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:19:39pm |
re: #242 SanFranciscoZionist
This is why I think he must believe that he has the military on his side. Otherwise, he is trying for suicide by mob.
| 254 |
Lidane Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:20:20pm |
re: #246 RadicalModerate
One problem with that. Unlike China and Tienanmen Square, Mubarak does NOT have the unequivocal backing of his military.
This needs to be emphasized. The Egyptian military isn't 100% on Mubarak's side here. They're divided, and many are even sympathetic to the protesters.
| 255 |
Velvet Elvis Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:20:22pm |
re: #238 commadore183
My prediction:
We're going to see another media crackdown, followed by violent actions against the protesters, ala Tienanmen Square.
He'd have to have the military on his side for that. I'm not really sure anyone would carry out the order at this point.
| 256 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:21:17pm |
re: #235 calochortus
Wow. Just wow. How is it possible for Mubarak to be so completely out of touch?
He's there. We're here watching television. I'm afraid he might be very much in touch.
| 257 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:22:07pm |
Well this sums it up.
Mubarak talked about outside forces in Egypt? YOU DELUSIONAL FUCK, THESE ARE YOUR PEOPLE! #jan25
| 258 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:22:13pm |
re: #251 lawhawk
He's probably relying on his army buddies and generals who are telling him that they've got the situation under control, and that they can rein in the crowds.
I fear this is going to get a whole lot uglier in very short order.
I don't think the protesters are being realistic.
There has to be some sort of transition period.
The subtext of what I hear is
DOWN WITH CANCER! DOWN WITH RADIATION!
Not exactly a ringing endorsement of reality.
| 259 |
brownbagj Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:22:30pm |
You know, the vast majority want a peaceful life - chance at a good job, food on the table, nice home and the ability to live their life.
Then some greedy bastard has to stand in their way.
| 260 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:23:20pm |
re: #244 Fozzie Bear
You have to admire his work ethic. The dude was standing on rooftops, while missiles and bullets whizzed by him, and just kept saying what he was sent there to say. I remember feeling bad for the guy. Imagine what would have happened to his family if he had said "no, i'm not saying that". Saddam wasn't known for taking kindly to insubordination.
He survived the whole invasion, and, IIRC, is now living with his family in the UAE. Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do.
| 261 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:23:22pm |
linuxawy Ahmed Mekkawy
by mfatta7
Protest stopped at the army command center in sidi gaber. People are sittong on the ground #jan25
| 262 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:23:37pm |
| 263 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:23:51pm |
A large crowd is headed toward Egyptian State Television headquarters...
| 264 |
freetoken Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:23:56pm |
re: #256 Decatur Deb
He's there. We're here watching television. I'm afraid he might be very much in touch.
It wouldn't surprise me if he actually wanted the protestors to turn violent, thus giving him the reasonable cover to turn his people loose to start a crackdown "for the sake of safety".
| 265 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:24:06pm |
People moving out of the square more now.
News reporting that some heading towards the headquarters of state tv now.
| 266 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:24:51pm |
re: #255 Conservative Moonbat
He'd have to have the military on his side for that. I'm not really sure anyone would carry out the order at this point.
I wouldn't. If I were a general right now, I'd be frog-marching Mubarak to the airport.
| 267 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:25:07pm |
re: #264 freetoken
It wouldn't surprise me if he actually wanted the protestors to turn violent, thus giving him the reasonable cover to turn his people loose to start a crackdown "for the sake of safety".
That's what Fareed is saying on CNN.
| 268 |
General Nimrod Bodfish Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:25:26pm |
re: #255 Conservative Moonbat
Maybe it's the pessimist inside of me that thinks about that, but if push comes to shove, things become unpredictable. Much of the Egyptian military sides with the protesters, but how much and who are the more influential members that side with who?
Again, probably the pessimist inside that's saying that, but, hopefully, it won't get bloody.
| 269 |
calochortus Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:25:29pm |
re: #264 freetoken
It wouldn't surprise me if he actually wanted the protestors to turn violent, thus giving him the reasonable cover to turn his people loose to start a crackdown "for the sake of safety".
If so, that's one heck of a dangerous game.
| 270 |
Fozzie Bear Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:25:30pm |
Mubarak won't last a month. I give him 2-3 weeks.
| 271 |
Summer Seale Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:25:33pm |
Watching the crowds right now, I can't help thinking that some enterprising person could make a fortune in pitchforks and torches right now.
| 272 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:25:51pm |
re: #263 Charles
A large crowd is headed toward Egyptian State Television headquarters...
Hate to dig out the Classical Revolutionary's Catechism, but that's what you do on the first day, after seizing the power plants and the barracks.
| 273 |
lawhawk Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:26:31pm |
re: #266 SanFranciscoZionist
A general who has been hand-picked for their loyalty to Mubarak? That's the kind of people who are surrounding Mubarak. They're there because of their loyalty to him first and foremost.
| 274 |
calochortus Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:27:24pm |
Freepers don't seem to be very interested, but what comment there is tends toward "Obama is incompetent". Nice to know they've got their foreign policy together.//
| 275 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:27:28pm |
re: #258 researchok
I don't think the protesters are being realistic.
There has to be some sort of transition period.
The subtext of what I hear is
Not exactly a ringing endorsement of reality.
Reality is for people with options*. These people aren't dumb, but they know that no change would ever take place if they weren't in the streets screaming for it.
*Please note, this is why I am so intolerant of the Tea Partiers. They should know from political desperation and tyranny.
| 276 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:27:37pm |
re: #266 SanFranciscoZionist
I wouldn't. If I were a general right now, I'd be frog-marching Mubarak to the airport.
And if you tried, you'd be lined up against a wall, given a cigarette, the opportunity to refuse a blindfold and as last words you would say, 'You haven't heard the last of me'.
/
| 277 |
Cheese Eating Victory Monkey Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:28:01pm |
re: #259 brownbagj
You know, the vast majority want a peaceful life - chance at a good job, food on the table, nice home and the ability to live their life.
I think that's a dangerous assumption to make. Not everyone in the middle east thinks like a westerner.
| 278 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:28:29pm |
re: #273 lawhawk
A general who has been hand-picked for their loyalty to Mubarak? That's the kind of people who are surrounding Mubarak. They're there because of their loyalty to him first and foremost.
Loyalty can be affected by power. It's part of it's influence. When the winds of power change 'loyalty' can be affected.
| 279 |
Fozzie Bear Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:28:35pm |
re: #264 freetoken
It wouldn't surprise me if he actually wanted the protestors to turn violent, thus giving him the reasonable cover to turn his people loose to start a crackdown "for the sake of safety".
That's one hell of a gamble when you have a crowd of a million extremely pissed off young people. If he waits too much longer, he's inviting a death in the style of Mussolini.
(Picture NSFW)
| 280 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:28:54pm |
re: #276 researchok
And if you tried, you'd be lined up against a wall, given a cigarette, the opportunity to refuse a blindfold and as last words you would say, 'You haven't heard the last of me'.
/
And you'd have a 20% chance to be right and have hichschools named after you.
| 281 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:29:23pm |
re: #277 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey
I think that's a dangerous assumption to make. Not everyone in the middle east thinks like a westerner.
What do the fuck is that supposed to mean? MEers don't care about food, family, jobs??
| 282 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:29:33pm |
re: #275 SanFranciscoZionist
Reality is for people with options*. These people aren't dumb, but they know that no change would ever take place if they weren't in the streets screaming for it.
*Please note, this is why I am so intolerant of the Tea Partiers. They should know from political desperation and tyranny.
I just hope they don't blow it.
They can keep the pressure on and keep the regime on the defensive until September.
| 283 |
calochortus Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:29:51pm |
re: #277 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey
I think that's a dangerous assumption to make. Not everyone in the middle east thinks like a westerner.
They enjoy not having the basics of a safe and comfortable life?
| 284 |
Lidane Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:30:04pm |
re: #274 calochortus
Freepers don't seem to be very interested, but what comment there is tends toward "Obama is incompetent". Nice to know they've got their foreign policy together.//
Freepers won't be interested until they can find something to pin on Obama or until they start seeing all the things that Glenn Beck is predicting.
| 286 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:30:50pm |
I hear a lot of projecting by the media.
That is not good.
| 287 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:31:00pm |
North area military command center is getting totally surrounded by protestors #jan25
| 288 |
brownbagj Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:31:08pm |
| 289 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:31:56pm |
re: #273 lawhawk
A general who has been hand-picked for their loyalty to Mubarak? That's the kind of people who are surrounding Mubarak. They're there because of their loyalty to him first and foremost.
I'm not convinced that they won't pull a Praetorian Guard routine and remove Mubarak if they figure it's best for the country, and for their own power.
| 290 |
Fozzie Bear Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:32:46pm |
re: #277 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey
I think that's a dangerous assumption to make. Not everyone in the middle east thinks like a westerner.
Since when was desiring "a chance at a good job, food on the table, nice home and the ability to live their life" a characteristic of "thinking like a westerner"? WTF?
| 291 |
Feline Fearless Leader Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:33:03pm |
Egyptian army rank-and-file are conscripts. At what point does the internal discipline of the forces start to erode, and to what degree do the NCOs and lower-ranking officers start thinking that things should be changed from the bottom up?
Hopefully it never reaches the point that the units are asked to fire upon their own countrymen. That's a question few really want answered.
| 292 |
lawhawk Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:33:04pm |
re: #289 SanFranciscoZionist
They might do that eventually - but for now, Mubarak's counting on their loyalty which is why he's going down this path.
| 293 |
Varek Raith Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:33:12pm |
re: #289 SanFranciscoZionist
I'm not convinced that they won't pull a Praetorian Guard routine and remove Mubarak if they figure it's best for the country, and for their own power.
We don't even know if Mubarak also blindsided the military with his speech.
Too many unknowns.
It's frustrating.
| 294 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:33:18pm |
re: #288 brownbagj
I am sorry. I forgot the world dominating Caliphate.
/
WTF?
What about Gaza? Israel pulled out and they had free elections. The people voted for corrupt terrorists who are hell bent on starting wars they are sure to lose. Shit happens.
| 295 |
leftynyc Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:33:19pm |
re: #57 _RememberTonyC
who WOULDN'T want the iranian people to cast off the mullahs? that is a non partisan issue in my mind
Agreed. However, Bolten would like it to happen at the end of an Amercian M-16 (or whatever they're using these days).
| 296 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:33:36pm |
re: #289 SanFranciscoZionist
I'm not convinced that they won't pull a Praetorian Guard routine and remove Mubarak if they figure it's best for the country, and for their own power.
That's the best hope. Right now young officers at the LTC-COL level have a lot of soul-searching before they lay their bets.
| 297 |
justaminute Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:33:38pm |
I wonder what the other ME dictators have been telling him. Their people will be watching too.
| 298 |
calochortus Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:34:04pm |
re: #289 SanFranciscoZionist
There was a "military communique #1" issued earlier today. There is much speculation as to whether there will be subsequent communiques.
| 299 |
brownbagj Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:34:11pm |
re: #294 Killgore Trout
I submit the Egypt situation is vastly different than Gaza.
| 301 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:34:58pm |
| 302 |
calochortus Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:35:33pm |
The vice president is now speaking-endorsing Mubarak's words and just generally talking down to the populace. "Security is more important than anything else."
| 305 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:36:09pm |
re: #277 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey
I think that's a dangerous assumption to make. Not everyone in the middle east thinks like a westerner.
That's true. Nor everyone in the Middle East puts food on a table. Putting it on cloths spread on the floor is more traditional.
//The desire for food, however, is fairly universal in the animal kingdom.
| 306 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:36:16pm |
re: #293 Varek Raith
We don't even know if Mubarak also blindsided the military with his speech.
Too many unknowns.
It's frustrating.
I think there's way, way more going on behind the scenes in terms of fighting then we know about.
| 307 |
Varek Raith Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:36:51pm |
re: #306 Jadespring
I think there's way, way more going on behind the scenes in terms of fighting then we know about.
All I'm sure of is that this is a very dangerous game Mubarak is playing.
| 308 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:36:57pm |
re: #302 calochortus
The vice president is now speaking-endorsing Mubarak's words and just generally talking down to the populace. "Security is more important than anything else."
The people in the square politely disagree.
| 309 |
RadicalModerate Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:37:01pm |
Egypt's new Vice President speaking now - so far its as much of a weasel-word statement as Mubarak's was earlier.
| 310 |
brownbagj Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:37:09pm |
VP - think of the children! We just want to get Egypt back to serenity and the peaceful life you have enjoyed.
Um, yeah. They are protesting because they DON"T have that.
Ass.
In other words, take your gruel and like it so we can get back to enjoying our lives.
| 311 |
b_sharp Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:38:00pm |
re: #271 Summer
Watching the crowds right now, I can't help thinking that some enterprising person could make a fortune in pitchforks and torches right now.
Cynic!
| 313 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:38:28pm |
re: #293 Varek Raith
We don't even know if Mubarak also blindsided the military with his speech.
Too many unknowns.
It's frustrating.
Yeah. Basically, right now, we probably have about ten percent of the facts available to us.
Still fun to try to fit the pieces together.
| 314 |
Prononymous, rogue demon hunter Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:38:31pm |
re: #277 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey
I think that's a dangerous assumption to make. Not everyone in the middle east thinks like a westerner.
That's not thinking like a westerner. That's thinking like a human.
Jerk.
| 315 |
Fozzie Bear Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:38:38pm |
The thing that worries me is this:
lets say Mubarak steps down tomorrow, and totally relinquishes power. (As the protestors want)
Then what?
Who is going to run the government until elections are held? How can it be guaranteed that they will turn over power to the winner of the election? You can't set up an actually democratic election in less than a couple of months. You have to have some process for choosing candidates, oversight, etc.
| 316 |
calochortus Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:38:45pm |
Egyptian VP: "Lets join hands and move forward..." Yes, I think the protesters may just move forward.
| 317 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:39:12pm |
| 319 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:39:21pm |
Okay I see what's going on now. The VP made it clear.
| 320 |
Summer Seale Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:39:45pm |
"Don't listen to the satellite TV stations..."
Uhuh...
| 321 |
RadicalModerate Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:39:49pm |
Uh oh. Vice President just told the protesters to go home, go back to work, don't listen to the people on the satellite broadcasts.
This will NOT go over well with the crowd if they hear it.
| 322 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:40:00pm |
re: #315 Fozzie Bear
The thing that worries me is this:
lets say Mubarak steps down tomorrow, and totally relinquishes power. (As the protestors want)
Then what?
Who is going to run the government until elections are held? How can it be guaranteed that they will turn over power to the winner of the election? You can't set up an actually democratic election in less than a couple of months. You have to have some process for choosing candidates, oversight, etc.
3 pointer, no net.
| 323 |
lostlakehiker Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:40:02pm |
re: #64 Fozzie Bear
If you are the leader of a country, and have a gold-plated toilet brush, and there is so much as a single person in your country who can't find a good job with full benefits, then i'm sorry to say, but a bullet to the head is too kind.
That kind of shit is over the top. If you use an object made out of enough precious metal to feed a family for years to clean your toilet, you don't deserve to breathe the same air as the people who support your opulence. You deserve a slow death.
What people deserve is often impractical. In South Africa, the new government established a truth and reconciliation commission. The deal was this: anyone who committed any sort of crime as an agent of his side in the contest for power between Mandela's party, other revolutionary parties, and the ruling parties, got a pardon. Free and clear. Just one stipulation: you had to admit you did it, with full details, names and places.
Marcos was allowed to leave the Philippines with his loot. Just go. And he went. Mubarak is evidently determined to stay in Egypt, come what may. He promised free and fair elections in his speech, but then in that same speech he insisted that he'd won in free and fair elections. So what he's promising is more of the same kind of free and fair elections that kept him in power all these decades whether anybody liked it or not.
This is very bad news.
| 324 |
Kilroy01 Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:40:46pm |
If the military opens up on the protesters their universe will change.
I wonder how the Egyptian military is going run it army without US parts or cash.
I wonder if they'll have as much luck as Iran's military did when the US cut them off.
(Now the Vice President is going to play bad cop)
| 325 |
Varek Raith Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:40:53pm |
The upper leadership is completely blind, deaf and dumb.
| 326 |
b_sharp Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:40:59pm |
re: #277 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey
I think that's a dangerous assumption to make. Not everyone in the middle east thinks like a westerner.
Only westerners want a safe and happy family?
I don't think it's cheese you've been eating.
| 327 |
calochortus Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:41:08pm |
Someone on NPR suggested this may be preparing the way for an "arranged" coup and a graceful exit by Mubarak. Its getting way to involved for me to comprehend.
| 328 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:41:09pm |
re: #310 brownbagj
VP - think of the children! We just want to get Egypt back to serenity and the peaceful life you have enjoyed.
Um, yeah. They are protesting because they DON"T have that.
Ass.
In other words, take your gruel and like it so we can get back to enjoying our lives.
| 329 |
lawhawk Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:41:17pm |
re: #315 Fozzie Bear
Let's say Mubarak stands down. Suleiman is interim/caretaker leader; elections are called for x weeks from now (6 seems reasonable to arrange national elections for the presidency).
It isn't optimal, but it's better than Mubarak trying to hold on til September.
| 330 |
tomg51spence Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:41:21pm |
"peace be upon you all" in closing.
Hope it works
| 331 |
TedStriker Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:42:05pm |
re: #244 Fozzie Bear
You have to admire his work ethic. The dude was standing on rooftops, while missiles and bullets whizzed by him, and just kept saying what he was sent there to say. I remember feeling bad for the guy. Imagine what would have happened to his family if he had said "no, i'm not saying that". Saddam wasn't known for taking kindly to insubordination.
At that point, Comical Ali/Baghdad Bob didn't really have a choice but to say what Saddam told to say...
| 332 |
calochortus Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:42:35pm |
re: #329 lawhawk
Let's say Mubarak stands down. Suleiman is interim/caretaker leader; elections are called for x weeks from now (6 seems reasonable to arrange national elections for the presidency).
It isn't optimal, but it's better than Mubarak trying to hold on til September.
6 weeks may not be enough to come up with qualifies, responsible candidates. Mubarak went to a lot of trouble to prevent any real opposition.
| 333 |
Ericus58 Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:42:52pm |
"#
2141: It's doubtful anyone in Tahrir Square heard Mr Suleiman's speech - the noise of chants and horns is deafening."
| 334 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:42:58pm |
Wow Anderson Cooper really is not holding back right now.
Lies, lies, lies. It's all manipulation.
| 336 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:43:29pm |
re: #333 Ericus58
"#
2141: It's doubtful anyone in Tahrir Square heard Mr Suleiman's speech - the noise of chants and horns is deafening."
They didn't miss much.
| 337 |
Varek Raith Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:43:38pm |
re: #334 Jadespring
Wow Anderson Cooper really is not holding back right now.
Lies, lies, lies. It's all manipulation.
Seriously.
| 338 |
b_sharp Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:43:52pm |
re: #284 Lidane
Freepers won't be interested until they can find something to pin on Obama or until they start seeing all the things that Glenn Beck is predicting.
Ghosts in their attics.
| 339 |
Kilroy01 Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:44:50pm |
Vice President speech...
Don't listen to satellite TV..
Blah Blah
Go home..
God says ...
God..
| 340 |
brownbagj Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:44:59pm |
| 341 |
reloadingisnotahobby Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:45:36pm |
Shit
I was looking forward to a long hooked cane from behind
the curtian.......*zing*
| 342 |
Fozzie Bear Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:46:06pm |
re: #331 talon_262
At that point, Comical Ali/Baghdad Bob didn't really have a choice but to say what Saddam told to say...
I remember the feeling of a sort of affection a lot of Americans had for Baghdad Bob. It was so obvious to everyone that the poor guy didn't have a choice in the matter. He was as much of victim of the situation as the people hiding in their homes. Only he couldn't hide. He had to play the world's most pointless game of pretend.
I remember thinking "I sure hope that guy gets to tell his story some day".
| 343 |
RadicalModerate Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:46:10pm |
Anderson Cooper just made an interesting statement regarding the "outside influences" of the protests.
Apparently, Mubarak thinks that the outsiders are a combination of Israeli, Hamas and Hezbollah agents. I'm trying to think of some comment on this, but I'm absolutely dumbfounded.
| 344 |
Robert O. Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:46:18pm |
Of course Mubarak says Mubarak is staying till September! Seriously, what did mainstream media expect when (for example) CNN predicted he may announce his departure? This man has been in power for 30 years already! Are we to believe he is somehow afraid of his people, or that he would allow anyone to dictate to him his timetable?
| 345 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:46:41pm |
NickKristof Nicholas Kristof
Mubarak/Suleiman have insulted the intelligence of the Egyptian people. There will be huge demonstrations as a result.
| 346 |
reloadingisnotahobby Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:48:01pm |
re: #345 Jadespring
NickKristof Nicholas Kristof
Mubarak/Suleiman have insulted the intelligence of the Egyptian people. There will be huge demonstrations as a result.
...and people will die.....
Maybe not from bullets.......SAD!
| 347 |
brownbagj Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:48:26pm |
| 348 |
Varek Raith Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:48:46pm |
Dammit.
Now I'm in a foul mood.
I think I'll take a walk.
Be well, Egypt.
| 349 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:49:24pm |
re: #342 Fozzie Bear
I remember the feeling of a sort of affection a lot of Americans had for Baghdad Bob. It was so obvious to everyone that the poor guy didn't have a choice in the matter. He was as much of victim of the situation as the people hiding in their homes. Only he couldn't hide. He had to play the world's most pointless game of pretend.
I remember thinking "I sure hope that guy gets to tell his story some day".
He was a hit on the Internet. There was a website called 'We love the Iraqi Information Minister'.
| 350 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:49:45pm |
Well... should our administration chime in now... or leave them be?
| 351 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:49:56pm |
re: #344 Robert O.
Of course Mubarak says Mubarak is staying till September! Seriously, what did mainstream media expect when (for example) CNN predicted he may announce his departure? This man has been in power for 30 years already! Are we to believe he is somehow afraid of his people, or that he would allow anyone to dictate to him his timetable?
CNN or the media did not predict it. They were reporting what people inside the country were saying including some officials and what officials in other countries including the US were told. That he was stepping down did not come originally the media. The Mubarak regime is as my dad would say is playing and bad game of 'silly bugger' right now.
| 352 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:50:06pm |
re: #299 brownbagj
I submit the Egypt situation is vastly different than Gaza.
Let's hope so.
Iran is another example. The Mullahs were the result of a very popular uprising.
| 353 |
TedStriker Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:50:15pm |
re: #279 Fozzie Bear
That's one hell of a gamble when you have a crowd of a million extremely pissed off young people. If he waits too much longer, he's inviting a death in the style of Mussolini.
(Picture NSFW)
I don't advocate for violence in this situation, but if the murderous, scheming Mubarak gets strung up by his heels a la Mussolini because he continued to refuse to step aside, I wouldn't shed a tear...
| 354 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:50:30pm |
re: #343 RadicalModerate
Anderson Cooper just made an interesting statement regarding the "outside influences" of the protests.
Apparently, Mubarak thinks that the outsiders are a combination of Israeli, Hamas and Hezbollah agents. I'm trying to think of some comment on this, but I'm absolutely dumbfounded.
"They're all out to get me!!"
"Who?"
"ALL OF THEM!!!"
| 355 |
leftynyc Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:50:56pm |
re: #225 Buck
He could be, but it is much more likely the line was directed to resonate any anti american sentiment in the crowd.
I am just saying you don't have to wait for someone to Blame Obama... I think Mubarak already is trying it.
You didn't even look at the poll results linked above, did you? Or you're just ignoring all evidence that doesn't fit your narrative. Kinda like Mubarak.
| 356 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:51:15pm |
re: #350 Walter L. Newton
Well... should our administration chime in now... or leave them be?
I assume we're already chiming on a regular basis.
| 357 |
Renaissance_Man Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:51:35pm |
re: #345 Jadespring
NickKristof Nicholas Kristof
Mubarak/Suleiman have insulted the intelligence of the Egyptian people. There will be huge demonstrations as a result.
Curiously, when demagogues such as Glenn Beck insult the intelligence of the American people, huge demonstrations also result.
| 358 |
brownbagj Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:51:36pm |
re: #349 SanFranciscoZionist
Didn't SNL have a pretty funny skit with someone portraying him and buildings shaking, dust falling all over the place?
Someone did and it was pretty funny.
I have a soft spot for him - imagine having a Saddam goon with a gun in your back and the US military racing in from all angles. And, he gave those positive reports with no break in his voice or smile on his face.
I couldn't have done it.
| 359 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:51:49pm |
re: #350 Walter L. Newton
Well... should our administration chime in now... or leave them be?
For the next 12 hours at least, 'Gone Fishin' ought to be the message on the answering machines in DC
| 360 |
reloadingisnotahobby Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:52:04pm |
re: #350 Walter L. Newton
I think it's to late....
At the onset maybe we would have had an ear but now?
How are ya Walter?
| 361 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:52:22pm |
amirahoweidy Amira Howeidy
by 3arabawy
presidential guard, not armed forces, now deployed at TV & Radio station building #jan25
CNN reporting protesters have set up a human chain surrounding state tv building.
| 362 |
brownbagj Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:53:02pm |
| 363 |
Ericus58 Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:53:10pm |
re: #350 Walter L. Newton
Well... should our administration chime in now... or leave them be?
"#
2147: First reaction from the US - White House spokesman Robert Gibbs says President Obama will meet his national security team at the White House on Thursday."
The worst scenario that could have been presented to them is reality.
| 364 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:53:13pm |
| 365 |
Cheese Eating Victory Monkey Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:53:18pm |
I take back what I said. I was wrong.
| 366 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:53:19pm |
re: #356 SanFranciscoZionist
I assume we're already chiming on a regular basis.
I don't know if that is a good thing.
They conned Panetta into making a fool of himself.
| 367 |
calochortus Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:53:22pm |
re: #348 Varek Raith
Dammit.
Now I'm in a foul mood.
I think I'll take a walk.Be well, Egypt.
That sounds like a really good idea (the walk, that is, although Egypt being well is a fine idea as well.) I think I'll get out and blow the cobwebs off too.
| 368 |
Kilroy01 Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:53:29pm |
There is an estimate that 20% of the Egyptian population will be on the streets of Egyptian cities tomorrow.
That is 16 million people.
Damn...
| 369 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:54:18pm |
re: #350 Walter L. Newton
Well... should our administration chime in now... or leave them be?
Let's wait to see what Obama does and then say he should have done the opposite.
| 370 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:54:26pm |
re: #368 Kilroy01
There is an estimate that 20% of the Egyptian population will be on the streets of Egyptian cities tomorrow.
That is 16 million people.
Damn...
Whose estimate?
| 371 |
Fozzie Bear Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:55:21pm |
re: #353 talon_262
I don't advocate for violence in this situation, but if the murderous, scheming Mubarak gets strung up by his heels a la Mussolini because he continued to refuse to step aside, I wouldn't shed a tear...
I wouldn't she a tear for Mubarak, but a peaceful transition of power is really extremely important for lending legitimacy to the leadership that follows. Violent revolutions are, as a rule, extremely bloody, and it's not like the only people who get killed in them are bad people.
There would be much innocent blood shed if things go down that road. And that will, in turn, feed extremist movements which thrive on brother turning against brother.
| 372 |
Robert O. Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:57:13pm |
I think a more interesting question is what will Egypt look like, say, a year from now. Mubarak will probably not be "President" (at least not nominally anyway), but more than likely, "reforms" will simply be a reshuffle at the top to give just enough impression that "changes" were made, to make the position of the military more tenable. Those with political power tend not to give it up.
Irrespective of the government type in Egypt, the result will be far from perfect. The system will still be authoritarian and full of corruption; there will be much tension between secularists and Islamists, etc. Why? In every country in that region, whether pro-west or anti-west, that is the way it is. You can change the government, but the culture which supports it will take decades to evolve.
| 373 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:57:32pm |
re: #369 recusancy
Let's wait to see what Obama does and then say he should have done the opposite.
Why would you do that?
| 374 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:58:25pm |
| 375 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:58:31pm |
| 376 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 10, 2011 1:59:48pm |
| 378 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:00:31pm |
| 379 |
Alexzander Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:00:36pm |
Amazing emcampement they have created in the square. Hopefully they have used this time to begin organizing themselves.
| 380 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:00:42pm |
| 381 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:02:06pm |
re: #375 recusancy
Cause Obama is a sekrit mooslim socialist.
I think Mubarak has drawn a line in the sand himself...
“We will not accept or listen to any foreign interventions or dictations,” Mr. Mubarak said, implying that pressure to resign came from abroad as opposed to masses of people demanding his ouster through his country.
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
I don't think he wants to hear from us in any case.
| 382 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:02:11pm |
| 383 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:02:19pm |
| 384 |
Political Atheist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:02:48pm |
Uh oh...
#
2154: ashraf khalil tweets: "Egypt: Another chant, 'Bukra Al Asr, Nirooh 3al Qasr'..Tomorrow afternoon, we march to the Palace."
| 385 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:03:13pm |
Unconfirmed reports of a bombing of a police station in Rafah.
Rafah is in North Sinai along the border according to wiki
| 387 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:04:05pm |
Ooh...Mubarak pulls a last-minute switcheroo and says, "PSYCHE!!"...stupid motherfucker. You don't get people hopeful after two weeks of protests and then pull the rug out from under them.
| 388 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:04:32pm |
So, if Mubarak is forced out? I wonder what country would take him in exile. Really know little of modern Egyptian history and Mubarak I must admit. Know a little about his predecessors Nassar and Sadat and how they got to power in the first place in the years following WWII but other than that.
| 389 |
tomg51spence Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:04:32pm |
Bachmann is source for Al Jazeera,
or vice versa?
//
| 390 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:05:00pm |
re: #388 HappyWarrior
So, if Mubarak is forced out? I wonder what country would take him in exile.
Texas.
| 391 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:05:10pm |
re: #386 Alexzander
on twitter?
Yep. Just posted it in case it goes somewhere. Lots of stuff that comes across twitter ends up being right.
Hoping this is a case of it being wrong.
| 392 |
Alexzander Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:06:53pm |
Speaker on AJ Live is suggesting that the government is trying to agitate the crowd to commit violent acts, so that they military will have to turn against them.
| 393 |
Stanghazi Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:07:46pm |
Check out this live map of tweets in Cairo
[Link: ht.ly...]
| 394 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:07:52pm |
People on CNN in the square....
'No respect from Mubarak. Freedom. Justice. We will not leave. "
"What now reporter?" asks.
"I am ready to die."
"Give me liberty or give me death."
| 395 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:07:57pm |
re: #388 HappyWarrior
So, if Mubarak is forced out? I wonder what country would take him in exile. Really know little of modern Egyptian history and Mubarak I must admit. Know a little about his predecessors Nassar and Sadat and how they got to power in the first place in the years following WWII but other than that.
For a dictator, he's relatively stench-free. Won't have a hard time finding a villa.
| 396 |
tomg51spence Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:08:25pm |
arthstar Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:05:00pm replyquotere: #388 HappyWarrior
So, if Mubarak is forced out? I wonder what country would take him in exile.
Texas.
Please wire transfer your down payment of 3 B$ and I'll leave the light on for you.
| 397 |
Alexzander Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:09:09pm |
Two minutes ago on twitter:
@Sandmonkey
So egypt has parted ways with the US and is relying on arab financing now.FFFFFfuUUUUUCCCCCKKKK! #jan25
What is that a reference to?
| 398 |
wrenchwench Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:09:27pm |
| 399 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:09:30pm |
re: #388 HappyWarrior
So, if Mubarak is forced out? I wonder what country would take him in exile. Really know little of modern Egyptian history and Mubarak I must admit. Know a little about his predecessors Nassar and Sadat and how they got to power in the first place in the years following WWII but other than that.
Suzanne and the boys are in London at the moment.
| 400 |
Alexzander Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:09:45pm |
re: #388 HappyWarrior
So, if Mubarak is forced out? I wonder what country would take him in exile. Really know little of modern Egyptian history and Mubarak I must admit. Know a little about his predecessors Nassar and Sadat and how they got to power in the first place in the years following WWII but other than that.
Maybe Cheney can help him out.
| 401 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:10:00pm |
re: #395 Decatur Deb
For a dictator, he's relatively stench-free. Won't have a hard time finding a villa.
Yeah I just wondered where personally since I know Idi Amin ended up in Saudi Arabia and I think Pinochet was in the UK.
| 402 |
wrenchwench Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:10:13pm |
re: #398 wrenchwench
That looks like a bad idea, if it were in the wrong hands. And there's no way to keep it in the right hands.
Although as long as the crowd is that thick, there's nothing they can do.
| 403 |
TedStriker Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:10:26pm |
re: #371 Fozzie Bear
I wouldn't she a tear for Mubarak, but a peaceful transition of power is really extremely important for lending legitimacy to the leadership that follows. Violent revolutions are, as a rule, extremely bloody, and it's not like the only people who get killed in them are bad people.
There would be much innocent blood shed if things go down that road. And that will, in turn, feed extremist movements which thrive on brother turning against brother.
OK, point taken. I revised what I said to "I wouldn't shed a tear for Mubarak if he wound up being strung up by his heels, but I hope it never comes to that."
| 404 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:10:37pm |
Rafah's like Laredo, IIRC, there's a town called that on either side of the border crossing.
| 405 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:11:27pm |
re: #401 HappyWarrior
Yeah I just wondered where personally since I know Idi Amin ended up in Saudi Arabia and I think Pinochet was in the UK.
I have been told that a group of GIs in Saudi for Desert Storm spotted Idi Amin in a grocery store.
| 406 |
wrenchwench Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:11:35pm |
re: #404 SanFranciscoZionist
Rafah's like Laredo, IIRC, there's a town called that on either side of the border crossing.
Is one of them Nuevo Rafah?
| 407 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:12:03pm |
re: #400 Alexzander
Maybe Cheney can help him out.
'Bout time someone blamed this on Bush/Cheney/Haliburton
| 408 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:12:07pm |
re: #394 Jadespring
People on CNN in the square...
'No respect from Mubarak. Freedom. Justice. We will not leave. "
"What now reporter?" asks.
"I am ready to die."
"Give me liberty or give me death."
There can be a down-side to promoting the martyr cult.
| 409 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:12:15pm |
From protester:
monasosh monasosh
Let me clarify somethinf. We r not leaving tahrir square, we are adding TV building to the liberated zone #Jan25
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply
And on Rafah. Looks like it's being reported by State media so I think a grain of salt is warranted at this point.
Egyptocracy
Egyptocracy Egyptocracy
RPGs have been fired on Central Security Camp in Rafah in #Sinai. #Egypt #Jan25 (reported by ElAhram and AlArabiya)
| 410 |
lostlakehiker Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:12:26pm |
re: #290 Fozzie Bear
Since when was desiring "a chance at a good job, food on the table, nice home and the ability to live their life" a characteristic of "thinking like a westerner"? WTF?
For thousands of years, there has been a tension between these goods, and others, less certain but with their own allure.
Religious extremists, and in some societies they can be so many as to be the drivers of history, make decisions on other grounds. The book "Empires of Trust", by Thomas Madden, is instructive. Along about AD 64, a pro-Roman Jewish big shot of the day, Agrippa II, argued in Jerusalem against war with Rome. His argument was that the odds were hopeless, on the one hand, and that their grievances could more readily be addressed through channels, on the other. The audience answered him with stones. In AD 66, the Roman garrison of the Jaffa gate, finding itself besieged by Zealots, accepted a deal in which it laid down its arms and walked away. But the forces of a certain Eleazar, on his orders, simply cut them down instead.
There were then pogroms across the region, some against Jews by gentiles, others the other way around. Several legions were sent to Judea under the command of Vespasian. Jerusalem was racked by civil war, and Rome also fell into disorder for a time when Nero was killed.
But in truth the odds were indeed impossible. Vespasian succeeded to the post of emperor, and a massive force under Titus converged on Jerusalem. Terms were offered, but the insurgents were fighting a Holy War and those aren't decided by weighing the odds. The fight for Jerusalem became a preview of the battle of Stalingrad, with the difference that the defenders lost.
If the history of Judaism includes such contempt for the prospects of "a chance at a good job, food on the table, nice home and the ability to live their life", then one can only conclude that any people can fall under the sway of messianic promises of victory in the here and now, never mind the odds.
Westerners, having learned through two world wars just recently, as well as other lessons, that this is madness, don't pay as much heed to such siren calls as they did a century ago. This new found preference for "a chance at a good job, food on the table, nice home and the ability to live their life" isn't anything fixed and permanent in western thinking. But today's westerners differ from the general run of humanity across history, their own ancestors included, in that they set virtually no store by promises of glory, mighty victories, and the like.
It cannot be taken as given that those who will shape the future of Egypt see things the same way a post-WW2 German or Dane sees things. Perhaps the call of peace and prosperity will win out. But perhaps not.
So to summarize, to your question "since when", the answer would be, since fairly recently, and then, only partially and temporarily.
| 411 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:12:42pm |
re: #405 SanFranciscoZionist
I have been told that a group of GIs in Saudi for Desert Storm spotted Idi Amin in a grocery store.
was Elvis with him, buying peanut butter and bananas?
| 412 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:12:46pm |
So question: Could someone point me to a good article about what Saudi's games in Egypt have been? Or could someone here give me a good rundown?
| 413 |
Alexzander Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:13:19pm |
re: #407 sattv4u2
'Bout time someone blamed this on Bush/Cheney/Haliburton
Nahh, just poking fun at the fact that Cheney called Mubarak a friend and strong ally of the US this week.
| 414 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:14:10pm |
re: #411 sattv4u2
was Elvis with him, buying peanut butter and bananas?
Sad state of affairs when a President-for-Life has to haul his own groceries.
| 415 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:15:24pm |
re: #414 Decatur Deb
Sad state of affairs when a President-for-Life has to haul his own groceries.
Why do you think he had Elvis with him!
| 416 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:15:34pm |
| 417 |
Alexzander Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:16:07pm |
Is this being covered much right now on US television? I'm following along on AJ live as they seem to be the best for online streaming.
| 418 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:16:31pm |
re: #411 sattv4u2
was Elvis with him, buying peanut butter and bananas?
No, Elvis is in a retirement home in Texas, with Jack Kennedy. Haven't you seen "Bubba Ho-Tep"?
| 419 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:16:32pm |
re: #405 SanFranciscoZionist
I have been told that a group of GIs in Saudi for Desert Storm spotted Idi Amin in a grocery store.
It wouldn't shock me. OT but Forrest Whitaker's portrayal of Amin in The Last King of Scotland was scary good. Heard a story that Whitaker called up his girlfriend using the Amin voice and scared the crap outta her. it does always interest me where dictators and their henchmen end up this said.
| 420 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:16:34pm |
re: #416 SanFranciscoZionist
Is there an upside?
Sometimes it works: "The Blood of the Martyrs Is the Seed of the Church".
| 421 |
Stanghazi Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:16:50pm |
Anyone watching Beck right now? Apparently he's melting down.
| 422 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:17:10pm |
re: #413 Alexzander
Nahh, just poking fun at the fact that Cheney called Mubarak a friend and strong ally of the US this week.
Yeah ,, ,except ,,
Vice President Joe Biden said Thursday that Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak is not a dictator and shouldn't step aside
[Link: thehill.com...]
| 423 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:17:48pm |
re: #410 lostlakehiker
Your inane and disgusting rehashing of Jewish history is contemptible. Roman occupation was not fun, it included the Roman institution of chattel slavery and the destruction of the Jewish way of life. The people were squeezed dry by a corrupt government and their laws and culture mocked. Times were terrible and the People justly revolted against tyrants.
HOW FUCKING DARE YOU ASSHOLE.
As to casting those complex and turbulent times in terms of only religious fanaticism you do the worst disservice to my People.
FUCK YOU.
| 424 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:18:00pm |
re: #417 Alexzander
Is this being covered much right now on US television? I'm following along on AJ live as they seem to be the best for online streaming.
It's all CNN has on right now. Don't know about the others.
It's all CBC (Canada) has on right now too.
| 425 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:18:21pm |
re: #421 Stanley Sea
Anyone watching Beck right now? Apparently he's melting down.
Ummm...this reminds me of when my girlfriend's cat had to go in for surgery, and she was afraid it had suffered brain damage from the anaesthetic. "Hon, forgive me for saying this," I said, "but with a cat, how could you tell?"
How would Beck melting down be different from normal Beck?
| 426 |
Alexzander Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:18:23pm |
re: #421 Stanley Sea
Anyone watching Beck right now? Apparently he's melting down.
Oh god damn it I wish I had tv sometimes. If I buy a regular tv, is fox a free channel? I'm not familiar with this 'free cable thing' in the US.
| 427 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:19:03pm |
| 428 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:19:09pm |
re: #412 LudwigVanQuixote
So question: Could someone point me to a good article about what Saudi's games in Egypt have been? Or could someone here give me a good rundown?
Riyadh rethinks stance on ‘popular revolt’
Moderate Saudi scholars form kingdom's first party
ANALYSIS-Saudi Arabia fears Egypt unrest could bolster Iran
| 429 |
Alexzander Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:19:22pm |
re: #424 Jadespring
Thanks - I'm glad its getting the coverage it deserves instead of some piece of Lohan's most recent legal troubles.
| 430 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:19:26pm |
re: #426 Alexzander
Oh god damn it I wish I had tv sometimes. If I buy a regular tv, is fox a free channel? I'm not familiar with this 'free cable thing' in the US.
Nah it's part of a cable package. See, there's regular Fox where you get your sports, Simpsons, Seinfeld, Family Guy, etc but Cable Fox is the news channel.
| 431 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:19:38pm |
re: #410 lostlakehiker
But in truth the odds were indeed impossible. Vespasian succeeded to the post of emperor, and a massive force under Titus converged on Jerusalem. Terms were offered, but the insurgents were fighting a Holy War and those aren't decided by weighing the odds. The fight for Jerusalem became a preview of the battle of Stalingrad, with the difference that the defenders lost.
If the history of Judaism includes such contempt for the prospects of "a chance at a good job, food on the table, nice home and the ability to live their life", then one can only conclude that any people can fall under the sway of messianic promises of victory in the here and now, never mind the odds.
Ohh really Vespasian was a good guy or the people butchered were just an accident?
And yes the Romans were offering warm meals and happy times, those silly Jews wanting their own nation free of the rule of corrupt slavers?
FUCK YOU FIVE WAYS TILL SUNDAY ASSHOLE.
| 432 |
Bubblehead II Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:19:43pm |
re: #421 Stanley Sea
Anyone watching Beck right now? Apparently he's melting down.
Is he wearing his robe and did Dorothy throw a bucket of water on him?
| 433 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:20:12pm |
re: #428 researchok
Thank you, I will read these. I hate historical revisionists.
| 434 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:20:18pm |
re: #421 Stanley Sea
Anyone watching Beck right now? Apparently he's melting down.
Okay I just turned the channel.
Yep...he's going off.
If you trust this guy Israel is dead.
You are dead.
You are dead.
| 435 |
Stanghazi Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:20:30pm |
re: #425 SanFranciscoZionist
Ummm...this reminds me of when my girlfriend's cat had to go in for surgery, and she was afraid it had suffered brain damage from the anaesthetic. "Hon, forgive me for saying this," I said, "but with a cat, how could you tell?"
How would Beck melting down be different from normal Beck?
Very good point. How can he top that Moses outfit he wore the other day?
[Link: www.mediaite.com...]
| 436 |
Alexzander Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:21:03pm |
| 437 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:21:07pm |
re: #423 LudwigVanQuixote
What lostlahiker looks obvioulsy like a cut and paste job. Instaed of swearing at him/her and calling him/her names why not ask what the source is, as I'm 100% sure it's not his/hers
| 438 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:21:48pm |
re: #421 Stanley Sea
Anyone watching Beck right now? Apparently he's melting down.
Dropped in--looks like a regularly-scheduled meltdown rather than a sweeps-week special meltdown.
| 439 |
Ojoe Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:22:03pm |
God bless the regular people of Egypt.
May this turn out well for them.
| 440 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:22:08pm |
re: #434 Jadespring
Okay I just turned the channel.
Yep...he's going off.
If you trust this guy Israel is dead.
You are dead.
You are dead.
Which guy?
| 441 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:22:19pm |
re: #433 LudwigVanQuixote
Thank you, I will read these. I hate historical revisionists.
Welcome to the internet.
| 442 |
Ojoe Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:22:50pm |
re: #431 LudwigVanQuixote
Vespation invented the pay toilet, so they say.
| 443 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:22:54pm |
| 444 |
Alexzander Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:23:18pm |
From the twitters:
Mubarak is now officially the Jay Leno of dictators
| 445 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:23:46pm |
I've watched Beck's show and I just sit there and am just awestruck at the crap that comes out of this guy's mouth. It doesn't even offend me or really anger me. The guy is so off in the deep end that it becomes humorous to me.
| 447 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:24:24pm |
re: #434 Jadespring
He just said, reference to Egypt that some people think it's a 1776 moment. It's not we're having a July 14 1789... that's the one that ended with the guiotines in France. Both revolutions calling for freedom but NO one ended in guiotines and bloodshed.
Commerical break...
| 448 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:24:29pm |
re: #437 sattv4u2
What lostlahiker looks obvioulsy like a cut and paste job. Instaed of swearing at him/her and calling him/her names why not ask what the source is, as I'm 100% sure it's not his/hers
And the cut and paste of the material is the generally accepted details of the 66-70 CE siege and take over of Jerusalem by the Romans. Nothing in the narrative was suggesting anything was fun and convenient under the Vesparsian family. It was what it was.
| 449 |
reine.de.tout Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:24:47pm |
re: #383 recusancy
shhh... Beck's on. I have to get edumacated.
I'm listening to him.
He is batshit crazy.
In my MOST humble opinion.
| 450 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:24:47pm |
re: #443 sattv4u2
You are such a worthless ass. That deserves a lot worse than cussing.
| 451 |
Lidane Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:24:48pm |
re: #445 HappyWarrior
I've watched Beck's show and I just sit there and am just awestruck at the crap that comes out of this guy's mouth. It doesn't even offend me or really anger me. The guy is so off in the deep end that it becomes humorous to me.
The problem with Glenn Beck isn't that he's obviously full of shit. It's the idiots who listen to him and believe what he says.
| 452 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:25:06pm |
| 453 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:25:17pm |
re: #440 SanFranciscoZionist
Which guy?
Some Egyptian guys. I think maybe MB folk dunno. All I heard was that no matter who you believe means you're dead.
| 454 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:25:56pm |
re: #442 Ojoe
Vespation invented the pay toilet, so they say.
Sure, just ignore Thomas Crapper.
See if I care.
//
| 455 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:25:59pm |
re: #448 Walter L. Newton
And the cut and paste of the material is the generally accepted details of the 66-70 CE siege and take over of Jerusalem by the Romans. Nothing in the narrative was suggesting anything was fun and convenient under the Vesparsian family. It was what it was.
And for that, I'm sure you'll be getting a downding as I did in 437!!
Ahh .. what fun!
| 456 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:26:28pm |
re: #451 Lidane
The problem with Glenn Beck isn't that he's obviously full of shit. It's the idiots who listen to him and believe what he says.
Yeah I agree with that. My latest favorite Beck moment was when he said Marx was organizing labor unions in Russia. I had ot laugh since I know that there were going to be people that actually believed that nonsense. What was funny to me having a background in Russian history was knowing that a left winger like Marx would have never been able to write what he did in Czarist Russia.
| 457 |
Alexzander Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:26:37pm |
Sorry to be so out of the loop, but did Obama give a speech today that seemed to suggest that Mubarak was leaving?
| 458 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:26:57pm |
re: #446 Ojoe
Patrick Henry has a long influence.
Yes, but most of the time the kids in some shithole are sucked in by our better angels, our government of the moment winds up screwing them.
| 459 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:27:00pm |
re: #450 LudwigVanQuixote
You are such a worthless ass. That deserves a lot worse than cussing.
Thank you, but I prefer "priceless dickhead" if you don't mind!
| 460 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:27:05pm |
re: #448 Walter L. Newton
And the cut and paste of the material is the generally accepted details of the 66-70 CE siege and take over of Jerusalem by the Romans. Nothing in the narrative was suggesting anything was fun and convenient under the Vesparsian family. It was what it was.
Walter, you didn't even read why it is inaccurate or biased, you would rather be a concern troll. Fuck you too. You are directly insulting my people. Of course you are too stupid and ignorant to know that.
You are just as useless as Satt.
Why not understand the causes of the revolt before making such stupid statements?
And while we are at it Walter Heartily, fuck you.
| 461 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:27:35pm |
re: #457 Alexzander
Sorry to be so out of the loop, but did Obama give a speech today that seemed to suggest that Mubarak was leaving?
Not sure if he gave a speech but the news was reporting that the admin was led to believe he was. His staying was not what they expected.
| 462 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:27:42pm |
re: #457 Alexzander
Sorry to be so out of the loop, but did Obama give a speech today that seemed to suggest that Mubarak was leaving?
Panetta was the one.
I suspect the Egyptians screwed with us to make us look bad- and incompetent.
| 463 |
engineer cat Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:28:02pm |
why are teh wingnuts such 2012 weenies?
Indeed, at this same point in the ’08 cycle, these 17 candidates had either already declared their candidacy or formed an official committee to LEGALLY begin raising money: Biden (Jan. 7, 2007), Brownback (Jan. 20), Clinton (Jan. 20), Dodd (Jan. 11), Edwards (Dec. 28, 2006), Gilmore (Jan. 9), Giuliani (Nov. 20, 2006), Huckabee (Jan. 28), Hunter (Oct. 30, 2006), Kucinich (Dec. 12, 2006), McCain (Nov. 16), Obama (Feb. 10), Paul (Jan. 11), Richardson (Jan. 21), Romney (Jan. 3), Tancredo (Jan. 16), and Vilsack (Nov. 9, 2006). As a matter of fact, the first person to drop out of the race -- Vilsack -- would do so on Feb. 23.
| 464 |
Alexzander Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:28:41pm |
re: #456 HappyWarrior
Yeah I agree with that. My latest favorite Beck moment was when he said Marx was organizing labor unions in Russia. I had ot laugh since I know that there were going to be people that actually believed that nonsense. What was funny to me having a background in Russian history was knowing that a left winger like Marx would have never been able to write what he did in Czarist Russia.
Yeah he would have been one of the first against the wall, along with the anarchists.
| 465 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:28:42pm |
re: #455 sattv4u2
And for that, I'm sure you'll be getting a downding as I did in 437!!
Ahh .. what fun!
I don't care... some people think they are an expert on every fucking subject, when all it amounts to is phony piety... the whole dynamics of the Roman world in relation to the middle east of that time is much more complicated than a them against them conflict.
| 466 |
Lidane Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:29:02pm |
re: #456 HappyWarrior
He actually said that Marx was organizing unions in Czarist Russia? LMAO.
| 467 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:30:11pm |
re: #460 LudwigVanQuixote
Walter, you didn't even read why it is inaccurate or biased, you would rather be a concern troll. Fuck you too. You are directly insulting my people. Of course you are too stupid and ignorant to know that.
You are just as useless as Satt.
Why not understand the causes of the revolt before making such stupid statements?
And while we are at it Walter Heartily, fuck you.
You haven't even stated why it is "inaccurate or biased" why don't you educate all of us... I'll wait... let's have a little takedown of the material that Lostlakehiker posted... waiting.
| 468 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:30:24pm |
re: #466 Lidane
He actually said that Marx was organizing unions in Czarist Russia? LMAO.
Wait...what?
| 469 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:30:26pm |
HEYA REINE
Ever get your e-maily thingy straightend out???
And if you do, please e-mail me at
priceless dickhead . com !!!
:)
//
| 470 |
Alexzander Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:31:01pm |
Protesters hoping to "liberate" state tv tonight...
Tomorrow a march on the palace..
| 471 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:32:58pm |
re: #465 Walter L. Newton
I don't care... some people think they are an expert on every fucking subject, when all it amounts to is phony piety... the whole dynamics of the Roman world in relation to the middle east of that time is much more complicated than a them against them conflict.
What exactly the hell are we arguing about, BTW?
| 472 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:33:28pm |
re: #410 lostlakehiker
too long, didn't read
| 473 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:33:47pm |
re: #471 SanFranciscoZionist
What exactly the hell are we arguing about, BTW?
I don't know, LLH never makes enough sense for me to get upset at him
| 474 |
Lidane Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:34:03pm |
re: #468 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Wait...what?
Yeah. Apparently that's Glenn Beck's latest bit of Russian history --
re: #456 HappyWarrior
My latest favorite Beck moment was when he said Marx was organizing labor unions in Russia. I had to laugh since I know that there were going to be people that actually believed that nonsense. What was funny to me having a background in Russian history was knowing that a left winger like Marx would have never been able to write what he did in Czarist Russia.
| 475 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:34:12pm |
re: #466 Lidane
He actually said that Marx was organizing unions in Czarist Russia? LMAO.
Yep, almost positive I heard that. Another classic Beck gem was last or a couple years ago when he used the famous Martin Nihomller "First They CAme for..........." poem to reference himself as a victim of the Obama administration. Considering that all the victims Nimholler talks about other than Jews are left wing groups, I found that hysterical. One of them was trade union members and another socialists.
| 476 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:35:00pm |
re: #467 Walter L. Newton
Really, why not read what I wrote, and actually it doesn't matter, I'm not going t o play your game asshole. And you really are being a deeply insulting fabulously wretched asshole right now. This was the loss of the land the death of thousands of my people. Get the history right, know what it means and don't you dare turn it into some web spat because you feel the need to be an obnoxious gadfly. You're total useless scum for playing it that way Walter.
| 477 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:35:23pm |
re: #464 Alexzander
Yeah he would have been one of the first against the wall, along with the anarchists.
What I think a lot of people especially Beck's fans don't know is that Marx and Engels did their writing and were published in London.
| 478 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:35:26pm |
re: #471 SanFranciscoZionist
What exactly the hell are we arguing about, BTW?
We are discussing who is most suitable as a presidential candidate- Michelle Bachmann or Sarah Palin,
Bristol was in the mix but she was eliminated because of her wardrobe choices on DWTS.
/
| 479 |
Girth Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:35:33pm |
re: #463 engineer dog
why are teh wingnuts such 2012 weenies?
Palin, Huckabee and Gingrich are all either contributors or have/had their own show (don't know if the Happy Huckabee Family Fun Time Hour is still on and don't really care) so why would they declare their candidacy when they get can get paid to get their message out?
| 480 |
Ojoe Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:35:48pm |
Pissing match, enough to set the colors in tweed.
| 481 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:35:52pm |
Per Politico, Sharon Angle will not run, and if drafted will not serve.
| 482 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:36:02pm |
re: #471 SanFranciscoZionist
What exactly the hell are we arguing about, BTW?
Lostlake Hiker posted some strongly revisionist views abut the causes of the First Revolt. Walter, who doesn't know a damn thing about it, is busy trying to be a concern troll.
| 483 |
reine.de.tout Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:36:02pm |
Goddammit LVQ.
Lostlakehiker was asked why he thought a particular way, and instead of saying, well, I just do - he tried to give an example of why he has a particular viewpoint. I'm not sure I agree with him, BUT he seemed to me to be trying to explain why he's got a particular viewpoint, and had no intention of insulting anyone.
Whereas you quite often say THE most awful things about all those evil slack-jawed, drooling, heathen redneck southerners, or what-the-fuck-ever, with no shred of any sort of explanation other than that happens to be what YOU think about us, and everybody giggles and updings you like crazy.
Satt simply asked you to CLARIFY with lostlakehiker what his intentions were when he made that post. That does not seem like a bad idea to me, IF what one is interested in is communication and discussion.
And for THAT you cuss out Satt, as well as lostlakehiker?
pfft.
I swear, it is not interesting one bit to be in a thread when you get like that.
I'll be back when you've logged off.
| 484 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:36:10pm |
re: #473 WindUpBird
I don't know, LLH never makes enough sense for me to get upset at him
That made me LOL.
Really.
| 485 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:36:38pm |
re: #466 Lidane
He actually said that Marx was organizing unions in Czarist Russia? LMAO.
I'm imaging none of his regular audience cares
I think the guy could show up on Fox tomorrow, and start really pushing the flat earth theory, and he'd get a bunch of his viewership on his side. They're not educated at all, that's why they watch Glenn Beck. He tailors his show specifically FOR the ignorant. That's his demographic.
| 487 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:37:42pm |
re: #483 reine.de.tout
Goddammit LVQ.
Lostlakehiker was asked why he thought a particular way, and instead of saying, well, I just do - he tried to give an example of why he has a particular viewpoint. I'm not sure I agree with him, BUT he seemed to me to be trying to explain why he's got a particular viewpoint, and had no intention of insulting anyone.
Whereas you quite often say THE most awful things about all those evil slack-jawed, drooling, heathen redneck southerners, or what-the-fuck-ever, with no shred of any sort of explanation other than that happens to be what YOU think about us, and everybody giggles and updings you like crazy.
Satt simply asked you to CLARIFY with lostlakehiker what his intentions were when he made that post. That does not seem like a bad idea to me, IF what one is interested in is communication and discussion.
And for THAT you cuss out Satt, as well as lostlakehiker?
pfft.
I swear, it is not interesting one bit to be in a thread when you get like that.I'll be back when you've logged off.
Reine with with politeness, I was away for a bit and when I got back on, I saw that tripe. It is an utter mischaracterization of one of the worst chapters in my people's history. It pisses me off. I really don't care what you think.
| 488 |
Lidane Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:38:00pm |
re: #481 Decatur Deb
Per Politico, Sharon Angle will not run, and if drafted will not serve.
And somewhere out there, Harry Reid is thanking her for saying that AFTER November 2010.
| 489 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:38:09pm |
re: #478 researchok
We are discussing who is most suitable as a presidential candidate- Michelle Bachmann or Sarah Palin,
Bristol was in the mix but she was eliminated because of her wardrobe choices on DWTS.
/
Yes, I would have trouble voting for someone who once dressed up as a gorilla onstage.
| 490 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:38:37pm |
| 491 |
RadicalModerate Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:38:46pm |
Sameh Shourkry, Egyptian Ambassador to the US is speaking with Wolf Blitzer on CNN.
He has just said that Mubarak transferred ALL power to the Vice President Suleiman outside of dissolving of Parliment - which cannot be transferred according to Egypt's constitution.
Suleiman is according to Shourkry, now the defacto President.
| 492 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:38:50pm |
re: #485 WindUpBird
I'm imaging none of his regular audience cares
I think the guy could show up on Fox tomorrow, and start really pushing the flat earth theory, and he'd get a bunch of his viewership on his side. They're not educated at all, that's why they watch Glenn Beck. He tailors his show specifically FOR the ignorant. That's his demographic.
You know what's sad is you're probably right. I mean this is a man who thinks our country began losing "freedom" in the Lincoln years.
| 493 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:39:05pm |
re: #489 SanFranciscoZionist
Yes, I would have trouble voting for someone who once dressed up as a gorilla onstage.
I was a tree in grade school.
I figure I could run for the senate.
| 494 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:39:16pm |
re: #490 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Its also a pretty neat trick for a German who died in 1883.
Such is the power of Marx, that his evil transcends time and space.
//
| 495 |
reine.de.tout Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:39:21pm |
re: #469 sattv4u2
HEYA REINE
Ever get your e-maily thingy straightend out???And if you do, please e-mail me at
priceless dickhead . com !!!
:)
//
Will do, Mr. P Dickhead.
| 497 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:39:39pm |
re: #476 LudwigVanQuixote
Really, why not read what I wrote, and actually it doesn't matter, I'm not going t o play your game asshole. And you really are being a deeply insulting fabulously wretched asshole right now. This was the loss of the land the death of thousands of my people. Get the history right, know what it means and don't you dare turn it into some web spat because you feel the need to be an obnoxious gadfly. You're total useless scum for playing it that way Walter.
Still waiting for you to explain to us what was historically wrong with the material that LLH posted. I already know the answer, or else I wouldn't waste MY TIME asking... but I have a feeling you can't answer.
You're the one that challenged LLH and implied that his post was " inaccurate or biased" yet you have not offered a rebuttal.
Unless you think that cursing and screaming and using fowl language is a scientific and educated way to debate a subject.
Waiting.
| 498 |
Stanghazi Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:39:48pm |
MahmoudLattouf Mahmoud Lattouf
by AliDahmash
Protesters' reaction on #Mubarak's speech. #Tahrir #Jan25 [Link: yfrog.com...]
| 499 |
Lidane Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:40:00pm |
re: #490 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Its also a pretty neat trick for a German who died in 1883.
You think Glenn Beck or his listeners care about facts? Heh.
| 500 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:40:05pm |
re: #491 RadicalModerate
Sameh Shourkry, Egyptian Ambassador to the US is speaking with Wolf Blitzer on CNN.
He has just said that Mubarak transferred ALL power to the Vice President Suleiman outside of dissolving of Parliment - which cannot be transferred according to Egypt's constitution.
Suleiman is according to Shourkry, now the defacto President.
I hope someone told the Egyptian kids.
| 501 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:40:23pm |
Ha ha.
Beck is talking his domino theory again. Showing an example...a 'socialist worker in England" who went to Tahrir and then made a speech about using them as an example and taking down the warmongers in what I assume 'England".
No context in who or what she was giving the speech too though. Just omg look it's spreading even to England.
And now onto Isreal...
| 502 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:40:29pm |
re: #495 reine.de.tout
Will do, Mr. P Dickhead.
;)
For real,, e-mail me when you can
If it's tonight I'll answer you when I get to work later
| 503 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:40:58pm |
re: #494 SanFranciscoZionist
Such is the power of Marx, that his evil transcends time and space.
//
Plus, he looks like my dad when he when he goes without a haircut for a few weeks.
| 504 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:40:59pm |
And on that note, it's just nice enough here to fire up the grill for some nice steaks I have
| 505 |
Lidane Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:41:10pm |
re: #492 HappyWarrior
You know what's sad is you're probably right. I mean this is a man who thinks our country began losing "freedom" in the Lincoln years.
I will forever love his Rockefeller Center conspiracy theory. It was hilarious. I almost expected the guy to pull out a tinhat and put in on while he explained it all.
| 506 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:41:59pm |
re: #498 Stanley Sea
MahmoudLattouf Mahmoud Lattouf
by AliDahmash
Protesters' reaction on #Mubarak's speech. #Tahrir #Jan25 [Link: yfrog.com...]
The shoes have come off...
| 507 |
reine.de.tout Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:42:33pm |
re: #487 LudwigVanQuixote
Reine with with politeness, I was away for a bit and when I got back on, I saw that tripe. It is an utter mischaracterization of one of the worst chapters in my people's history. It pisses me off. I really don't care what you think.
And in spite of the fact there are many from the south here at LGF, who have proven we are not eveil drooling slack-jawed inbred heathens, you INSIST on continuously referring to us that way, which is a mischaracterization of ME. But you seem FINE with that.
I'm gone for a bit, now.
| 508 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:42:41pm |
re: #499 Lidane
You think Glenn Beck or his listeners care about facts? Heh.
Heh do you or anyone else remember when the wingers were getting all bent out of shape about the czars and everything. It was just some internet wingnut but the guy said something to the effect that the czars were Bolsheviks. I laughed my ass off at that one too since after all the Romanovs were perhaps the most anti Communism regime in Europe at that time. A lot of the Russian communists and anarchists were publishing their views in London. I actually heard about a really good new book about the Anarchists in London in the early 1900's. BBC History is a really good podcast and I'd highly recommend it to anyone.
| 509 |
Girth Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:42:53pm |
I wonder if Glenn Beck knows that there are hundreds if not thousands of titles available for download at no charge through the Amazon Kindle Store. One of them is The Communist Manifesto! One of the largest, most successful e-retailers is a communist front organization! Where is Glenn on this most important development?
| 510 |
lostlakehiker Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:43:17pm |
re: #431 LudwigVanQuixote
Ohh really Vespasian was a good guy or the people butchered were just an accident?
And yes the Romans were offering warm meals and happy times, those silly Jews wanting their own nation free of the rule of corrupt slavers?
FUCK YOU FIVE WAYS TILL SUNDAY ASSHOLE.
This is just history. I didn't make it up. I'm not defaming Jews, I'm just noting that nobody's perfect and that some kinds of beliefs can send a civilization off the rails.
The Romans were offering Pax Romana. It was the only deal in town. Agrippa was right that rebellion could only end in disaster. Madden explains meticulously that the rebels were simply not taking seriously the realities of their military prospects. You really should read the book, if you want the full context. But I did present it fairly.
And the author is not a hack with an eccentric agenda. I've called you friend, and I meant no insult, but you might want to think about whether that was really what you wanted to say in response to a careful and historically accurate post.
| 511 |
researchok Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:43:27pm |
I was also a hobbit basketball player in a middle school play. I thought that would give me an edge with a Harlem Globetrotters tryout.
I was wrong.
| 512 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:44:07pm |
re: #497 Walter L. Newton
yet you have not offered a rebuttal.
Yes he did
I think he used the same 7 words George Carlin was talking about!!
| 513 |
Lidane Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:44:44pm |
re: #509 Girth
Pfft. Who cares about plain old textbook commies when there are Mooslim Commies trying to revive the Caliphate? If he could somehow prove that Amazon.com is part of the plot, he might jump on that. My guess is that he hasn't settled on a link just yet.
| 516 |
Girth Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:45:52pm |
re: #508 HappyWarrior
Yes, I've always found the czar = communist meme particularly entertaining.
| 518 |
wrenchwench Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:46:12pm |
re: #506 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
The shoes have come off...
Some are holding up phones. Are we sure those aren't shoe phones?
/Maxwell Smart
| 519 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:47:10pm |
The funny thing for me regarding Glenn Beck was my introduction to him. He was talking about Irena Sendler and how he felt she deserved the Nobel Peace PRize over Gore. Really didn't have an issue with that though I thought it was kinda lame that he was using her story to bash Gore. Why not just praise her and not bash Gore ya know but he seemed ok enough. Of course this was before I saw how nuts he was after Obama got elected. Between the crying, pathetic martyr complex, I just laugh at old Glenn now.
| 520 |
avanti Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:48:56pm |
CNN talking to Egyptian ambassador and he said Mubarak has passed all power to the VP and Mubarak is President in name only.
| 521 |
Lidane Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:49:13pm |
re: #516 Girth
Yes, I've always found the czar = communist meme particularly entertaining.
It's just as mind-numbingly bad as the communist = nazi one. It makes me want to grab the biggest, heaviest history book I can and start whacking people upside the head with it in the hopes that knowledge will transfer by osmosis. Heh.
| 522 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:49:58pm |
re: #497 Walter L. Newton
As I wrote above, and this is not to appease you but rather to prevent you recasting something you were not involved in - and how dare you lecture me on my own People's history, you do not know anything - the revolt was not because of a messianic fervor that spread through the people of Judah while the Romans were offering good jobs and fine meals as the post implied.
In fact, let's look at the offensive passage one more time:
If the history of Judaism includes such contempt for the prospects of "a chance at a good job, food on the table, nice home and the ability to live their life", then one can only conclude that any people can fall under the sway of messianic promises of victory in the here and now, never mind the odds.
The revolt was the result of decades of Roman strangulation of the economy, Roman desecration of the Jewish way of life, the institution of chattel slavery, corrupt Roman courts and the general brutality of the Roman occupation.
To cast it all as a vague and irrational fit of religious extremism is utterly offensive.
For you to dare to take the stand you are is utterly offensive.
Walter, you are permanently on the shit list. You are useless and pathetic swine. Any other magical balance faries out there want to chime in that is fine, but you are not going to cast the terrible struggle that lost the Homeland for 2000 years as some cheap debate point on a web thread and you certainly don't get to try to sound superior when you do it.
| 523 |
Girth Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:50:02pm |
re: #513 Lidane
Pfft. Who cares about plain old textbook commies when there are Mooslim Commies trying to revive the Caliphate? If he could somehow prove that Amazon.com is part of the plot, he might jump on that. My guess is that he hasn't settled on a link just yet.
I'm sorry, I forgot about the power of the Mooslim Commie relative to that of his older brother, the Atheist Commie.
I guess I just have a hard time keeping track of what batshit crazy people think I should be afraid of.
| 524 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:50:26pm |
re: #510 lostlakehiker
No it is revisionist tripe for the reasons I listed.
| 525 |
zora Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:51:00pm |
| 526 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:51:09pm |
re: #512 sattv4u2
The useless and offensive gadfly splutters.
| 527 |
Lidane Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:51:14pm |
re: #523 Girth
I guess I just have a hard time keeping track of what batshit crazy people think I should be afraid of.
That's because you're sane. You're not expected to be able to follow all teh crazeh. ;)
| 528 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:51:39pm |
re: #521 Lidane
It's just as mind-numbingly bad as the communist = nazi one. It makes me want to grab the biggest, heaviest history book I can and start whacking people upside the head with it in the hopes that knowledge will transfer by osmosis. Heh.
It's like they completely forget the fact that many Communists including Lenin's older brother were excuted by the Czars. As for the Commie one, that one is even more funny since the Communists and Nazis were huge rivals on the rise to power. The funniest is when these people insist that the Nazis were socialists because of the party name which is hilarious to me since many communist countries called or call themselves "democratic" too.
| 529 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:52:41pm |
re: #497 Walter L. Newton
Still waiting for you to explain to us what was historically wrong with the material that LLH posted. I already know the answer, or else I wouldn't waste MY TIME asking... but I have a feeling you can't answer.
You're the one that challenged LLH and implied that his post was " inaccurate or biased" yet you have not offered a rebuttal.
Unless you think that cursing and screaming and using fowl language is a scientific and educated way to debate a subject.
Waiting.
I'm still waiting for someone to boil down what LLH meant by the post. "Most people want a living wage and food on the table" does not seem to me to be contradicted by "people will take risks for freedom".
| 530 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:54:40pm |
re: #525 zora
now i'm offended.
I've had "say what you need to say" stuck in my head for 3 days now because of whatever damn song he plays where thats all he says for the entire damn song.
| 531 |
Girth Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:54:51pm |
re: #517 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
OT
Fucking John Mayer songs.
Please clarify:
Are you talking about songs by fucking John Mayer, or songs by other people about fucking John Mayer?
| 532 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:55:14pm |
re: #526 LudwigVanQuixote
The useless and offensive gadfly splutters.
How many times must you be told
"priceless dickhead"
c'mom,, get it right !
| 533 |
engineer cat Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:55:22pm |
re: #510 lostlakehikerThe Romans were offering Pax Romana. It was the only deal in town. Agrippa was right that rebellion could only end in disaster. Madden explains meticulously that the rebels were simply not taking seriously the realities of their military prospects.
the people of judea had previously ousted the selucid dynasty in 165 bce. in any case, both jews and romans of the period believed in divine intervention, and so the belief of the jews that their freedom would be guaranteed by g-d, whatever we modern people think of as "realities", was not irrational given the period
the jewish people successfully ousted roman imperial power from the holy land for at least a few years, twice
hardly any other peoples under the domination of the roman empire were ever brave enough to attempt such a thing during that period of roman history
the origin of the fate of our people to wander the earth without a homeland for many hundreds of years was in our determination to be free to govern ourselves. even if it meant our tiny nation trying to defeat the greatest power on the face of the earth
| 534 |
Girth Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:55:46pm |
re: #530 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
I've had "say what you need to say" stuck in my head for 3 days now because of whatever damn song he plays where thats all he says for the entire damn song.
Oh....yeah....I tolerated him until I heard that song. No longer. What a hunk of shit that on is.
| 535 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:55:49pm |
re: #510 lostlakehiker
The Romans were offering Pax Romana. It was the only deal in town. Agrippa was right that rebellion could only end in disaster. Madden explains meticulously that the rebels were simply not taking seriously the realities of their military prospects. You really should read the book, if you want the full context. But I did present it fairly.
People often fight battles they can't win. For all kinds of reasons.
| 536 |
tradewind Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:56:05pm |
re: #515 sattv4u2
The good news is there's now indisputable proof that a no-fail thread killer does indeed exist.
**Note to LVQ:
Next time the urge to go all sideways on a poster hits, why not just dance it out? Cee Lo could save you time and effort....
| 537 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:56:13pm |
re: #507 reine.de.tout
And in spite of the fact there are many from the south here at LGF, who have proven we are not eveil drooling slack-jawed inbred heathens, you INSIST on continuously referring to us that way, which is a mischaracterization of ME. But you seem FINE with that.
I'm gone for a bit, now.
Cut the crap, I am pretty clear about which southerners I am talking about.
And for the record, if there were ohhh so many enlightened southerners like you claim then why do all of your states have the worst and most pathetic records when it comes to well everything we tend to complain about here at LGF. If there are so many of you sane Southerners, then why does a modern SOUTHERN STRATEGY work?
I am so sick of this sometimes.
All the nonsense. Everyone play nice... Everyone is a damned special snowflake. Everyone has some opinion that matters, no matter how far from teh truth it is.
This is ultimately why America is crumbling. The worst of us are filled with a desperate urgency to tear everything down, and the best of us are shambling weaklings incapable of calling true things true for fear of hurting some snowflakes preciousness.
Well guess what, the South is infested with racist, bible thumping lunatics and one look at electoral patterns and opinion polls proves that handily. If you care so much, get out there and change your states.
| 538 |
lostlakehiker Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:57:58pm |
re: #437 sattv4u2
What lostlahiker looks obvioulsy like a cut and paste job. Instaed of swearing at him/her and calling him/her names why not ask what the source is, as I'm 100% sure it's not his/hers
I gave the source, in the post. Empires of Trust, by Thomas Madden. It's not cut and paste...it's my own synopsis of what Madden wrote, together with a commentary linking the situation then with the situation today. Start on page 268 and read on for about ten pages if you care to check.
All the statements of fact come from that source. I tried to be faithful to that source material in describing the motives and thinking of the players.
It's an unfortunate chapter in the history of a great people. I cannot think of better people, but no people have lived so purely as to never, ever get anything wrong.
| 539 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:58:28pm |
re: #534 Girth
Oh...yeah...I tolerated him until I heard that song. No longer. What a hunk of shit that on is.
I keep thinking "I would tell you if you would STFU for 10 seconds."
| 540 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:58:42pm |
re: #522 LudwigVanQuixote
As I wrote above, and this is not to appease you but rather to prevent you recasting something you were not involved in - and how dare you lecture me on my own People's history, you do not know anything - the revolt was not because of a messianic fervor that spread through the people of Judah while the Romans were offering good jobs and fine meals as the post implied.
In fact, let's look at the offensive passage one more time:
The revolt was the result of decades of Roman strangulation of the economy, Roman desecration of the Jewish way of life, the institution of chattel slavery, corrupt Roman courts and the general brutality of the Roman occupation.
To cast it all as a vague and irrational fit of religious extremism is utterly offensive.
For you to dare to take the stand you are is utterly offensive.
Walter, you are permanently on the shit list. You are useless and pathetic swine. Any other magical balance faries out there want to chime in that is fine, but you are not going to cast the terrible struggle that lost the Homeland for 2000 years as some cheap debate point on a web thread and you certainly don't get to try to sound superior when you do it.
No one called it a "vague and irrational fit of religious extremism is utterly offensive." Please show me who said that? And nothing in that paragraph above was incorrect. The Raomans were everything you say they were, no one that know anything about that era would deabte that (and no one has anywhere on this thread). But the fact remains, the Jewish people wanted "a chance at a good job, food on the table, nice home and the ability to live their life" no more or less than any group of people do.
B it was DEFINITELY Jewish religious zealots (where do you think we get the name "Zealot") that insisted in waging a holy war back against the Romans, a 4 year battle which no one would expect them to win, and they didn't.
There were many religious and political factions in the Jewish community at that time who were opposed to fighting the Romans, and were satisfied with accepting Pax Romana.
That's the facts, jack.
Your whole arguement is a permanent shit list... thank you for a place of honor on it.
| 541 |
wrenchwench Thu, Feb 10, 2011 2:59:58pm |
re: #537 LudwigVanQuixote
Put the shovel down.
| 542 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:00:33pm |
re: #540 Walter L. Newton
Shut up Walter. You don't know shit about it and the fact that you dare pontificate is offensive.
| 543 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:01:22pm |
re: #541 wrenchwench
Put the shovel down.
NO.
Enough is just enough
All we do is yaddah yaddah yaddah.
Sometimes the truth is more important.
| 544 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:01:29pm |
lre: #538 lostlakehiker
It's an unfortunate chapter in the history of a great people. I cannot think of better people, but no people have lived so purely as to never, ever get anything wrong.
Unfortunate why? Because smart people would have just let the Romans roll right on through?
I understand the point that the odds were wildly against them, but the same could be said for many a small nation in the path of the Nazis, and we're not too kind to those that just rolled over.
| 545 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:01:31pm |
re: #542 LudwigVanQuixote
Shut up Walter. You don't know shit about it and the fact that you dare pontificate is offensive.
Shut me up Ludwig!
| 546 |
Bubblehead II Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:02:27pm |
re: #520 avanti
CNN talking to Egyptian ambassador and he said Mubarak has passed all power to the VP and Mubarak is President in name only.
Well from what I understand, the protesters aren't exactly happy with Suleiman either. They want a clean sweep. Besides, Suleiman is also considered the CIAs Point Man in Cairo
| 547 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:02:32pm |
re: #540 Walter L. Newton
But the fact remains, the Jewish people wanted "a chance at a good job, food on the table, nice home and the ability to live their life" no more or less than any group of people do.
So this proves...what?
I'm still trying to get the thread of this argument.
| 548 |
wrenchwench Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:02:40pm |
@suzeeinthecity
back from #tahrir, i have only thing to say: motherfucker.
4 minutes ago
She's got cause for that language...
| 549 |
TedStriker Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:02:45pm |
re: #507 reine.de.tout
And in spite of the fact there are many from the south here at LGF, who have proven we are not eveil drooling slack-jawed inbred heathens, you INSIST on continuously referring to us that way, which is a mischaracterization of ME. But you seem FINE with that.
I'm gone for a bit, now.
Quite Concur, to borrow the phrase from D_F.
Ludwig can be a good guy, but when stuff gets in his craw like this, he tends to get into "HULK SMASH!!!" mode and I just have to skip over him until he chills out some.
| 550 |
tradewind Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:03:01pm |
re: #541 wrenchwench
Too late.... he's already put the hammer down.
| 551 |
Alexzander Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:03:07pm |
re: #537 LudwigVanQuixote
...
I am so sick of this sometimes.All the nonsense. Everyone play nice... Everyone is a damned special snowflake. Everyone has some opinion that matters, no matter how far from teh truth it is.
This is ultimately why America is crumbling. The worst of us are filled with a desperate urgency to tear everything down, and the best of us are shambling weaklings incapable of calling true things true for fear of hurting some snowflakes preciousness.
...
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
?
| 552 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:03:20pm |
re: #547 SanFranciscoZionist
So this proves...what?
I'm still trying to get the thread of this argument.
Can't help ya.
| 553 |
Stanghazi Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:03:20pm |
Retweeted by that foulmouthed blogger Sandmonkey
TheThomason Sean Thomason
by Sandmonkey
Damn girl, you've got a Mubarak. (an ass that won't quit)
| 554 |
wrenchwench Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:04:11pm |
re: #543 LudwigVanQuixote
NO.
Enough is just enough
All we do is yaddah yaddah yaddah.
Sometimes the truth is more important.
This is opinion, not truth:
This is ultimately why America is crumbling. The worst of us are filled with a desperate urgency to tear everything down, and the best of us are shambling weaklings incapable of calling true things true for fear of hurting some snowflakes preciousness.Well guess what, the South is infested with racist, bible thumping lunatics and one look at electoral patterns and opinion polls proves that handily. If you care so much, get out there and change your states.
| 556 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:05:07pm |
re: #553 Stanley Sea
Retweeted by that foulmouthed blogger Sandmonkey
TheThomason Sean Thomason
by SandmonkeyDamn girl, you've got a Mubarak. (an ass that won't quit)
OK, that is FUNNY.
| 558 |
zora Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:06:22pm |
re: #537 LudwigVanQuixote
Cut the crap, I am pretty clear about which southerners I am talking about.
And for the record, if there were ohhh so many enlightened southerners like you claim then why do all of your states have the worst and most pathetic records when it comes to well everything we tend to complain about here at LGF. If there are so many of you sane Southerners, then why does a modern SOUTHERN STRATEGY work?
I am so sick of this sometimes.
All the nonsense. Everyone play nice... Everyone is a damned special snowflake. Everyone has some opinion that matters, no matter how far from teh truth it is.
This is ultimately why America is crumbling. The worst of us are filled with a desperate urgency to tear everything down, and the best of us are shambling weaklings incapable of calling true things true for fear of hurting some snowflakes preciousness.
Well guess what, the South is infested with racist, bible thumping lunatics and one look at electoral patterns and opinion polls proves that handily. If you care so much, get out there and change your states.
enlightened southerners are not a figment of reine's imagination. there are lots of us /them. your "white trash" southerner comments and the like are offensive to many here whether you can accept or not.
| 560 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:08:09pm |
| 561 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:08:32pm |
re: #545 Walter L. Newton
Shut me up Ludwig!
The cause of the revolt was not just some irrational religious fervor. Here is the offensive quote one more time.
If the history of Judaism includes such contempt for the prospects of "a chance at a good job, food on the table, nice home and the ability to live their life", then one can only conclude that any people can fall under the sway of messianic promises of victory in the here and now, never mind the odds.
They revolted for their freedom. They revolted because Rome was not giving them food on the table or any sort of stable life. They revolted Because Rome was trying to destroy their culture and identity. They revolted because they were tired of seeing their relatives turned into chattel slaves.
So in otherwords the loss of the homeland for 2,00 years and the destruction wrought by tyrants matters less than your recasting of history just to piss me off?
Pathetic Walter. And you want to piss me off over my people's history.
I realize that this was too juicy for you to get not involved in. None the less, you should have kept your ignorant mouth shut.
| 562 |
wrenchwench Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:08:49pm |
| 563 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:08:50pm |
re: #547 SanFranciscoZionist
So this proves...what?
I'm still trying to get the thread of this argument.
Walter is concerned.
| 564 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:09:49pm |
| 565 |
Bubblehead II Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:11:02pm |
| 566 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:12:05pm |
re: #558 zora
enlightened southerners are not a figment of reine's imagination. there are lots of us /them. your "white trash" southerner comments and the like are offensive to many here whether you can accept or not.
Fair enough. I for the longest time used to write these long preambles about precisely which southerners I was referring to. I am well aware that there are plenty of sane southerners. I am never talking about them.
However, the South really does have to own up to the fact that you did elect things like the Texas BOE, Rand Paul and similar creatures. You have to own up to the whole Southern strategy that works there and you have to own up to the electoral lines that replicate the lines of the Civil War and a whole bunch of other things. When I am talking about deluded Southerners, I am clearly talking about a majority.
| 567 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:13:23pm |
re: #554 wrenchwench
If what I wrote was false, then the electoral patterns would be different.
| 568 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:13:49pm |
re: #561 LudwigVanQuixote
The cause of the revolt was not just some irrational religious fervor. Here is the offensive quote one more time.
They revolted for their freedom. They revolted because Rome was not giving them food on the table or any sort of stable life. They revolted Because Rome was trying to destroy their culture and identity. They revolted because they were tired of seeing their relatives turned into chattel slaves.
So in otherwords the loss of the homeland for 2,00 years and the destruction wrought by tyrants matters less than your recasting of history just to piss me off?
Pathetic Walter. And you want to piss me off over my people's history.
I realize that this was too juicy for you to get not involved in. None the less, you should have kept your ignorant mouth shut.
No where in this thread has anyone said, nor quoted, a single passage that proclaims "The cause of the revolt was not just some irrational religious fervor."
This is something you have made up, a straw man. There is no doubt that years of occupation PLUS religious fervor, combined, and reach a pitch that resulted in three revolts, 66, 115, and 132 CE.
Sorry Ludwig, you can't rewrite history. What LLH posted, what I and some others have posted and commented on, is plain and simple historical facts.
And I'm still waiting for you to explain to me how you intend to shut me up?
| 569 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:15:00pm |
OK you know what it's clear that Walter just wants to get a real fight going. I quit for the night. I made my case.
| 570 |
wrenchwench Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:16:16pm |
re: #567 LudwigVanQuixote
If what I wrote was false, then the electoral patterns would be different.
I said what you wrote was OPINION, not false.
re: #566 LudwigVanQuixote
Fair enough. I for the longest time used to write these long preambles about precisely which southerners I was referring to. I am well aware that there are plenty of sane southerners. I am never talking about them.However, the South really does have to own up to the fact that you did elect things like the Texas BOE, Rand Paul and similar creatures. You have to own up to the whole Southern strategy that works there and you have to own up to the electoral lines that replicate the lines of the Civil War and a whole bunch of other things. When I am talking about deluded Southerners, I am clearly talking about a majority.
More opinion. I can't believe you're telling zora that she has to own up to the whole Southern Strategy. What did she have to do with it?
| 571 |
lostlakehiker Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:17:59pm |
re: #524 LudwigVanQuixote
No it is revisionist tripe for the reasons I listed.
The historical account is not my tripe, and I don't think it's tripe at all. It's a fair summary to say that the Jews had the option under Roman rule of being more or less left alone most of the time, as much left alone as other areas of the empire. To go back a few years, Caligula issued an infamous decree, true, but the local Roman authorities balked and before push came to shove, Caligula was killed by Romans who'd had enough of his antics at home. Claudius then revoked that decree and others.
If what counted most was the best chance at living an ordinary life, the prospects for that were better under Roman rule as it then stood, rather than in war with Rome, followed by the kind of Roman rule that would then result.
However desirable a Jewish military victory, followed by independence, might have seemed, that wasn't a realistic prospect.
There can be situations in which fighting, even if it's hopeless, makes as much sense as anything else. Churchill made that observation. But as I read Madden, and in my own opinion, Roman rule wasn't one of those situations. Oh, and also in the opinion of Jesus. He counseled rendering unto Caesar what was Caesar's. I'm not claiming that this settles the issue or that it's the Word of God. But he did have a point.
| 572 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:18:39pm |
re: #570 wrenchwench
I said what you wrote was OPINION, not false.
re: #566 LudwigVanQuixote
More opinion. I can't believe you're telling zora that she has to own up to the whole Southern Strategy. What did she have to do with it?
I really am giong to log out soon.
I would have thought that the logic was pretty clear.
1. There are clearly sane and decent people in the south.
2. We live in a republic that votes by majority.
3. The south produces an endless parade of backwards whackos elected to office.
4. Therefore the sane southerners are not the majority.
5. Therefore it is proper to talk about how messed up the South clearly is and pretending it isn't doesn't help anyone.
| 573 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:19:21pm |
And now I really am out. I quit for the night. Be well all.
| 574 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:21:53pm |
re: #553 Stanley Sea
Retweeted by that foulmouthed blogger Sandmonkey
TheThomason Sean Thomason
by SandmonkeyDamn girl, you've got a Mubarak. (an ass that won't quit)
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
| 575 |
sagehen Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:21:59pm |
re: #558 zora
enlightened southerners are not a figment of reine's imagination. there are lots of us /them. your "white trash" southerner comments and the like are offensive to many here whether you can accept or not.
I have to question your definition of "lots".
If you mean, "so many I couldn't possibly list them all by name" you may have a point. But there's certainly not "lots" enough to elect a majority-sane state legislature.
| 576 |
wrenchwench Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:22:24pm |
re: #572 LudwigVanQuixote
4. Therefore the sane southerners are not the majority.
A social scientist you are not.
| 577 |
lostlakehiker Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:23:48pm |
re: #544 SanFranciscoZionist
l
Unfortunate why? Because smart people would have just let the Romans roll right on through?
I understand the point that the odds were wildly against them, but the same could be said for many a small nation in the path of the Nazis, and we're not too kind to those that just rolled over.
Romans were not Nazis. They just weren't.
The British Empire is a better fit. And our own rebellion included a sober look at the odds. It was granted, in the discussion leading up to the decision for war, that some thought had to be given to whether victory were possible.
| 578 |
engineer cat Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:26:35pm |
re: #577 lostlakehiker
that some thought had to be given to whether victory were possible
it was a 'die on your feet or live on your knees' kind of thing
| 579 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:28:40pm |
re: #538 lostlakehiker
Wow, you're seriously saying the Jews were wrong to rebel against the Roman occupation.
Fucking weird.
| 580 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:33:38pm |
| 581 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:35:12pm |
re: #577 lostlakehiker
Yes, the British Empire is a better fit. The British Empire that enslaved, despoiled, exterminated local cultures, etc. etc.
The history you have given is strongly of the 'hindsight is 20/20' variation, in terms of what came after the revolt. The governors of Judea really were quite fabulously corrupt. What was being offered was not the Pax Romana that held sway in much of the rest of the empire, but a much more oppressive form. The choice being offered to Jews was oppression, slavery, and the slow destruction of their culture, or revolt, with all those attendant dangers.
To call Jews of the time period religious zealots is a little odd. They were certainly no more 'zealous' than the Romans were, and the revolt was not on religious grounds per se, but about living conditions-- including their religion, but not because of their religion. "A good life" for Jews of the time period would certainly include being able to worship properly. I don't think it's a sign of religious zealotry to revolt in order to have the freedom to practice one's religion.
| 582 |
Alexzander Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:38:34pm |
Obdicut, since you seem to know about this period of history, would you also say that it mirrors early colonial interaction with the first nations of North America?
| 583 |
William Barnett-Lewis Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:38:42pm |
re: #581 Obdicut
Yes, the British Empire is a better fit. The British Empire that enslaved, despoiled, exterminated local cultures, etc. etc.
Quoted for truth.
| 584 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:40:11pm |
I wouldn't blame anyone who resisted the British or Roman empires at all really. As an American of Irish decent, my personal heroes include men like Thomas Meagher, Padraig Pearse, and others who resisted the British empire.
| 585 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:40:12pm |
re: #580 LudwigVanQuixote
I don't think that it's 'revisionism', it's just looking at ancient events through modern eyes. We take freedom of religion somewhat for granted, and so a revolt partially based on the desire to practice one's religion comes across as 'zealotry' to many modern readers, I think, including whatever historian LostLake was using for his post.
Pax Romana, I might add, doesn't really have much to do with policy towards conquered territories; it was mostly an ending of the civil wars and a general halt of expansion of the empire.
Some territories fared very well under the Romans, others were heavily oppressed; it was mostly a matter of the local governors.
| 586 |
lostlakehiker Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:40:19pm |
re: #579 Obdicut
Wow, you're seriously saying the Jews were wrong to rebel against the Roman occupation.
Fucking weird.
They were wrong to think it might have worked. There are other ways to resist occupation than by an unrestrained appeal to war in the raw.
The Danes didn't fight to the last man in the sewers of Copenhagen, but that didn't make them Nazi toadies. And anyhow, the Romans weren't Nazis.
| 587 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:40:28pm |
Lack of unity may threaten GOP objectives in House
A month after they took control of the House of Representatives with their biggest majority since the Truman administration, Republicans are stumbling and finding it difficult to pass some of their priorities.
That could make it hard for the party to unite behind its biggest priority, due for votes next week: cutting federal spending.
Tea party conservatives rebelled at the House GOP leadership's initial spending cut package as too puny. It's since been revised to come closer to meeting the right's demand for $100 billion in spending reductions this fiscal year.
House Speaker John Boehner of Ohio maintains that he's unworried. For some time, he's said he's not inclined to muscle legislation through the House, as his predecessors often did.
"We're in a new era," Boehner said Thursday. "We're going to allow the House to work its will. Leaders are not going to get what they want every day."
Analysts offer a different take.
"This is a battle for the soul of the Republican Party," said Michael Munger, a political science professor at Duke University.
| 588 |
zora Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:41:41pm |
re: #575 sagehen
I have to question your definition of "lots".
If you mean, "so many I couldn't possibly list them all by name" you may have a point. But there's certainly not "lots" enough to elect a majority-sane state legislature.
i mean that i've lived in the south most of my life. i was not surrounded by racists and idiots. i am an african american woman. i am aware of the history of the south.
calling people white trash or black trash is just as disgusting. is any of this making sense to you?
| 589 |
lostlakehiker Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:41:54pm |
re: #585 Obdicut
I don't think that it's 'revisionism', it's just looking at ancient events through modern eyes. We take freedom of religion somewhat for granted, and so a revolt partially based on the desire to practice one's religion comes across as 'zealotry' to many modern readers, I think, including whatever historian LostLake was using for his post.
Pax Romana, I might add, doesn't really have much to do with policy towards conquered territories; it was mostly an ending of the civil wars and a general halt of expansion of the empire.
Some territories fared very well under the Romans, others were heavily oppressed; it was mostly a matter of the local governors.
His name is Thomas Madden, "Empires of Trust".
| 590 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:42:04pm |
re: #587 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
They're finding what the Dems found out after 2008 that sometimes a majority isn't the end all solution. Boehner has a lot of cats to herd just like Pelosi did.
| 591 |
Bubblehead II Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:42:40pm |
Interesting. We currently have a real live modern day revolt against an oppressive Government going on in Egypt. But we (as a collective) are talking about what caused a revolt that happened 2000 + years in the past.
Weird.
| 592 |
wrenchwench Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:43:04pm |
re: #587 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
"This is a battle for the soul of the Republican Party," said Michael Munger, a political science professor at Duke University.
Presumes facts not in evidence, Your Honor.
| 593 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:43:37pm |
re: #582 Alexzander
Obdicut, since you seem to know about this period of history, would you also say that it mirrors early colonial interaction with the first nations of North America?
I'm not sure what you mean. The Jews-- and the other peoples who lived there-- were conquered and subjugated, but not exterminated through disease and displacement at all to the extent that the American Indians were.
It was kind of similar to the Spanish treatment of the native cultures, but there's no real comparison because all those cultures had just been devastated by disease.
| 594 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:44:50pm |
re: #585 Obdicut
I don't think that it's 'revisionism', it's just looking at ancient events through modern eyes. We take freedom of religion somewhat for granted, and so a revolt partially based on the desire to practice one's religion comes across as 'zealotry' to many modern readers, I think, including whatever historian LostLake was using for his post.
Pax Romana, I might add, doesn't really have much to do with policy towards conquered territories; it was mostly an ending of the civil wars and a general halt of expansion of the empire.
Some territories fared very well under the Romans, others were heavily oppressed; it was mostly a matter of the local governors.
The Pax Romana succeeded because Augustus was able to successfully convince the Romans that they could prosper and gain wealth without being at war with a foreign power.
Of course, that didn't work out to well the further you got from Rome.
| 595 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:45:25pm |
re: #586 lostlakehiker
They were wrong to think it might have worked. There are other ways to resist occupation than by an unrestrained appeal to war in the raw.
Your assertion that a rebellion couldn't have worked is an absolutely unprovable one, and is completely moot, since the question is about whether the Jews were rebelling out of religious fanatacism, as you claimed, or a desire for "chance at a good job, food on the table, nice home and the ability to live their life.".
The desire to simply practice one's religion is not religious fanaticism.
| 596 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:46:55pm |
re: #594 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Yes. It's important to note that during the Pax Romana time period, actual Roman citizenship was mostly limited to those in Italy, and not all of those by a long shot.
| 597 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:50:14pm |
re: #537 LudwigVanQuixote
And Ludwig, remember that black Southerners are still Southerners. The South is theirs, too. They have been shut out from political power in many ways, but they are still a vital and strong part of the society there. When you talk about the South and Southerners, it does seem like you're only referring to whites, which is an irony in itself.
| 598 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:50:28pm |
re: #596 Obdicut
Yes. It's important to note that during the Pax Romana time period, actual Roman citizenship was mostly limited to those in Italy, and not all of those by a long shot.
And military and political appointments to the outer territories was seen as a way top off ones personal treasury so you would have money for your return to Rome.
| 599 |
engineer cat Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:50:49pm |
re: #585 Obdicut
I don't think that it's 'revisionism', it's just looking at ancient events through modern eyes. We take freedom of religion somewhat for granted, and so a revolt partially based on the desire to practice one's religion comes across as 'zealotry' to many modern readers, I think, including whatever historian LostLake was using for his post.
Pax Romana, I might add, doesn't really have much to do with policy towards conquered territories; it was mostly an ending of the civil wars and a general halt of expansion of the empire.
Some territories fared very well under the Romans, others were heavily oppressed; it was mostly a matter of the local governors.
indeed it is looking at things though modern eyes. the jews of the time experienced the roman occupation as blasphemous, and believed that g-d had promised to intervene and establish the righteous kingdom
| 600 |
Prononymous, rogue demon hunter Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:52:47pm |
re: #586 lostlakehiker
And the Finnish should have known better than to try and resist the mighty USSR. /
| 601 |
Bubblehead II Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:52:50pm |
O.K. I see where this thread is headed.
I'll check the body count in the morning.
Night.
| 602 |
Gus Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:54:57pm |
McCain is still trying.
McCain Urges Mubarak To Listen To His People
Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) called Egyptian Prime Minister Hosni Mubarak's decision to remain in office while allocating unspecified powers to Vice President Omar Suleiman "deeply unfortunate and troubling."
"The voices of the Egyptian people are growing louder and more unified, and they are not demanding partial transfers of power or minor adjustments to the current government," McCain said in a release issued less than two hours after Mubarak gave a rambling speech in which he said he would remain as President until elections are held in September. "They are calling for President Mubarak to step down as the beginning of a meaningful and enduring transition to democracy in Egypt."
McCain, the 2008 Republican presidential nominee and one of the chief critics of President Obama's foreign policy, said he fully endorsed the goals of the Egyptian people -- what he deemed "peaceful aspirations" -- and said he is growing increasingly more concerned that the unrest and "call for change" could be exploited by "extremist or violent elements" each day protesters demands go unmet...
Love him or hate him you have to admire his candid stance on Egypt.
| 603 |
b_sharp Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:55:12pm |
re: #423 LudwigVanQuixote
Your inane and disgusting rehashing of Jewish history is contemptible. Roman occupation was not fun, it included the Roman institution of chattel slavery and the destruction of the Jewish way of life. The people were squeezed dry by a corrupt government and their laws and culture mocked. Times were terrible and the People justly revolted against tyrants.
HOW FUCKING DARE YOU ASSHOLE.
As to casting those complex and turbulent times in terms of only religious fanaticism you do the worst disservice to my People.
FUCK YOU.
WTF?
| 604 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:55:36pm |
re: #586 lostlakehiker
The Danes didn't fight to the last man in the sewers of Copenhagen, but that didn't make them Nazi toadies. And anyhow, the Romans weren't Nazis.
By the way, the Danes have recently issued a statement regretting the collaboration government, even though they, in many ways, resisted the Nazi influence. Their heroic saving of the Jews in their country is a wonderful thing, but they, as a nation, have expressed regret for their collaboration.
| 605 |
Targetpractice Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:57:04pm |
Good evening, fellow lizards. What's the good word?
| 606 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:57:09pm |
re: #600 prononymous
And the Finnish should have known better than to try and resist the mighty USSR. /
Well, the Finnish did have Simo Hayha...
| 607 |
sagehen Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:57:20pm |
re: #590 HappyWarrior
They're finding what the Dems found out after 2008 that sometimes a majority isn't the end all solution. Boehner has a lot of cats to herd just like Pelosi did.
Isn't somebody now supposed to pipe up with "But they can pass anything they want!!! They're the majority!!!"
I have to admit, I'm rather enjoying that the R's fabled Party Discipline seems to have developed some holes.
| 608 |
engineer cat Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:58:03pm |
i think it's interesting to note the differences in imperial policies in the ancient world - they are described in the bible and had a direct impact on jewish history
the assyrians were the closest to nazis. they deported the tribes they conquered (including the 12 lost tribes of jewish history), and broke them up into slave gangs. the result was that their slave force was ineffective as well as resentful, and they were quickly conquered by the neo-babylonians. the babylonians deported slave gangs from conquered peoples, but kept them together to make more efficient work units, allowing them to keep their culture, even if they were required to sing king david's song in a strange land
the persians were more interested in taxes than slaves, and therefore allowed the jews of the babylonian captivity to go home
one of the reasons that the romans were the most successful of all was that they learned to put conquered people on a path to full citizenship. ultimately, in the time of the late night roman emperors, everybody in the empire was granted citizenship
| 609 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:59:45pm |
re: #604 Obdicut
By the way, the Danes have recently issued a statement regretting the collaboration government, even though they, in many ways, resisted the Nazi influence. Their heroic saving of the Jews in their country is a wonderful thing, but they, as a nation, have expressed regret for their collaboration.
That's pretty admirable of the Danes to do that.
| 610 |
sagehen Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:00:41pm |
re: #599 engineer dog
indeed it is looking at things though modern eyes. the jews of the time experienced the roman occupation as blasphemous, and believed that g-d had promised to intervene and establish the righteous kingdom
No, they really didn't.
They believed God had turned his back for various reasons; they knew the success or failure of any revolt rested entirely on the shoulders of human beings.
| 611 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:01:34pm |
re: #599 engineer dog
indeed it is looking at things though modern eyes. the jews of the time experienced the roman occupation as blasphemous, and believed that g-d had promised to intervene and establish the righteous kingdom
There was no agreement of the Jews at the time on such a thing, no.
| 612 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:01:38pm |
re: #607 sagehen
Isn't somebody now supposed to pipe up with "But they can pass anything they want!!! They're the majority!!!"
I have to admit, I'm rather enjoying that the R's fabled Party Discipline seems to have developed some holes.
I am not surprised the holes are there. They've been out of power for the past four years with new leadership and new members. The caucus that Dennis Hasert had to keep disciplined is quite different from the one that John Boehner now faces.
| 613 |
Targetpractice Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:01:58pm |
re: #607 sagehen
Isn't somebody now supposed to pipe up with "But they can pass anything they want!!! They're the majority!!!"
I have to admit, I'm rather enjoying that the R's fabled Party Discipline seems to have developed some holes.
The GOP's slowly falling apart before our eyes. The decay is only set to accelerate as the primaries spool up and the Tea Party starts trying to compete with the Old Guard for the nomination. It's like '04 all over again.
| 614 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:02:17pm |
re: #608 engineer dog
one of the reasons that the romans were the most successful of all was that they learned to put conquered people on a path to full citizenship. ultimately, in the time of the late night roman emperors, everybody in the empire was granted citizenship
Of course, I think it can be successfully argued that this might have been a contributing factor to the collapse of the Empire, as these new citizens expectations weren't met by the ruling elite in Rome.
| 615 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:03:14pm |
re: #608 engineer dog
one of the reasons that the romans were the most successful of all was that they learned to put conquered people on a path to full citizenship. ultimately, in the time of the late night roman emperors, everybody in the empire was granted citizenship
Full citizenship was a very late development for Rome. I'd argue that the Roman model of establishing colonies and using collaborationist local governments was the reason for their success.
| 616 |
engineer cat Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:04:26pm |
| 617 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:06:36pm |
re: #615 Obdicut
Full citizenship was a very late development for Rome. I'd argue that the Roman model of establishing colonies and using collaborationist local governments was the reason for their success.
Full citizenship was meant to appease the provincials who were tired of shipping they're wealth back to Rome and getting little tangible in return. They were granted citizenship, but by the late empire, many of its supposed benefits were non-existant. Once faced with that fact, the fall was inevitable.
| 618 |
engineer cat Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:07:21pm |
re: #615 Obdicut
Full citizenship was a very late development for Rome. I'd argue that the Roman model of establishing colonies and using collaborationist local governments was the reason for their success.
definitely
the policy evolved starting from co-opting local elites at the time of the late republic
| 619 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:08:42pm |
Appreciate the Roman history factoids guys. As I've mentioned here before, I am a history major but I really have little academic or reading experience with classical history.
| 620 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:10:06pm |
A little levity in an otherwise serious discussion.
I realized that it was getting dark and it was starting to storm and I hadn't got dog food. So I threw on my jacket and ran right out the door to get to the store before the roads got bad. Halfway there I realized I was still in my PJs and that they LOOKED obviously like pjs. Also realized that color wise I completely clashing and looked like an idiot. I even had a furry hat with ear flaps on.
Damn, ugh... okee not turning back now.
So I steeled myself and went in all the while thinking that if I was in Walmart that it would be more then reasonable for someone to take a picture and post it to that site.
Of course it's a small town and I ran into people I knew.
Ugh...glad to be home now...
| 622 |
sagehen Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:11:47pm |
re: #581 Obdicut
To call Jews of the time period religious zealots is a little odd. They were certainly no more 'zealous' than the Romans were, and the revolt was not on religious grounds per se, but about living conditions-- including their religion, but not because of their religion. "A good life" for Jews of the time period would certainly include being able to worship properly. I don't think it's a sign of religious zealotry to revolt in order to have the freedom to practice one's religion.
Weeelllll....
There was one faction that was absolutely zealots. You remember, the ones who called themselves Zealots, that's where the word comes from.... (the Masada crew).
But that wasn't about religion I don't think, it was about not being enslaved, families split up and taken away in chains.
| 623 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:12:33pm |
re: #619 HappyWarrior
Appreciate the Roman history factoids guys. As I've mentioned here before, I am a history major but I really have little academic or reading experience with classical history.
I reccomend the first 2 books of Hans Delbruck's The History of the Art of War which covers the Greek armies, the Roman Republic and Roman Empire up to the Fall.
| 624 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:14:04pm |
re: #623 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
I reccomend the first 2 books of Hans Delbruck's The History of the Art of War which covers the Greek armies, the Roman Republic and Roman Empire up to the Fall.
Cool, thanks. Delbruck wasn't he the guy whose brain the monster was supposed to get in Young Frankenstein :).?
| 625 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:14:10pm |
re: #622 sagehen
Heh. Yes, there were actual zealots. But zealots alone weren't enough for the rebellion.
But that wasn't about religion I don't think, it was about not being enslaved, families split up and taken away in chains.
Absolutely.
It was not a choice between a nice, happy 'Pax Roman' (which, again, is a misuse of the term) existence or rebellion 'cuz of religious zealotry. It was a rebellion based on oppression, including, but not exclusive to, religious oppression.
| 626 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:14:39pm |
| 627 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:15:09pm |
re: #622 sagehen
Weeelll...
There was one faction that was absolutely zealots. You remember, the ones who called themselves Zealots, that's where the word comes from... (the Masada crew).
But that wasn't about religion I don't think, it was about not being enslaved, families split up and taken away in chains.
The siege of Massada had very little to do with the actual revolt, but more to send a message to the Parthians about what Rome would do to keep control.
| 628 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:15:38pm |
re: #624 HappyWarrior
Cool, thanks. Delbruck wasn't he the guy whose brain the monster was supposed to get in Young Frankenstein :).?
Same guy.
| 629 |
Gus Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:15:44pm |
re: #626 Killgore Trout
I thought conservatives were banned from appearing in movies.
Apparently not. Although in the video he says "I am not a conservative but I have conservative in me".
| 630 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:16:43pm |
| 631 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:17:12pm |
re: #620 Jadespring
A little levity in an otherwise serious discussion.
I realized that it was getting dark and it was starting to storm and I hadn't got dog food. So I threw on my jacket and ran right out the door to get to the store before the roads got bad. Halfway there I realized I was still in my PJs and that they LOOKED obviously like pjs. Also realized that color wise I completely clashing and looked like an idiot. I even had a furry hat with ear flaps on.
Damn, ugh... okee not turning back now.
So I steeled myself and went in all the while thinking that if I was in Walmart that it would be more then reasonable for someone to take a picture and post it to that site.
Of course it's a small town and I ran into people I knew.
Ugh...glad to be home now...
Surprisedly, I see a lot of female adults going out in public their PJ's, especially "quick" trips to the grocery store, gas station or convenient store. I see it a lot at the super market where I work. I've seen mom and two daughters all come out dressed like that. Rarely do I guys dressing like that, although I have seen a few guys in what was evidently a PJ top, or soft slippers.
I've done overseas flights in running clothes and soft slippers, for a matter of fact, did that just a few weeks ago when I went to Paris. It's really more comfortable when you are on a plane for 9 to 11 hours to wear fluffy loose clothes and shoes that you can just kick off.
I wouldn't even hesitate at wearing PJ's under a long coat on a long overseas flight.
I don't see anything wrong with it.
| 632 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:17:17pm |
re: #628 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Same guy.
Yeah I figured. Brooks is really a savvy guy. He references Kafka's Metamorphsis in the original Producers too when Leo and Max are going through scripts. Hated that book when I read it my senior year of high school but I am reading it again this spring for my English course. Hopefully, I'll appreciate it now that I am more mature and have actually seen where Kafka lived and wrote in Prague.
| 633 |
Gus Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:17:28pm |
re: #630 Jadespring
I'm just going to ignore this piece of info.
Maybe he was studying for a role in a movie. ;)
| 634 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:18:30pm |
And Massada was held by the Sicarrii, who were an offshoot of the Zealots.
| 635 |
Varek Raith Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:18:58pm |
re: #634 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
And Massada was held by the Sicarrii, who were an offshoot of the Zealots.
Damn Protoss.
/
| 636 |
Mr Pancakes Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:20:33pm |
re: #629 Gus 802
Apparently not. Although in the video he says "I am not a conservative but I have conservative in me".
I asked my wife if she had any conservative in her...... she said "no", I said "would you like a little?"
| 637 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:20:58pm |
| 638 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:23:42pm |
re: #631 Walter L. Newton
Sure but would you wear pink with lime green and purple spotted PJs, brown mukluks with tassles, covered in a tailored wool coat and not think you looked like an idiot?
I'm all for comfort and soft pants but there is a line...
| 639 |
b_sharp Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:25:28pm |
re: #638 Jadespring
Sure but would you wear pink with lime green and purple spotted PJs, brown mukluks with tassles, covered in a tailored wool coat and not think you looked like an idiot?
I'm all for comfort and soft pants but there is a line...
Post some pictures and we'll help you decide how silly it looks.
Glad to help.
| 640 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:25:29pm |
Saw this on facebook as I'm a "fan" of the Onion and it's a funny interview by The Hill with Jane Carmichael from the Onion, she was the reporter on the story about Congress forgetting to pass a bill.
[Link: thehill.com...]
| 641 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:26:24pm |
It's kinda interesting. After a years of cozying up the Alex Jones, Ron Paul, the Birch society and 9-11 truthers wingnut bloggers today are embarrassed and outraged by the antics of Ron Paul supporters at CPAC. It's not like we didn't warn them that this would happen.
| 642 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:27:03pm |
| 643 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:28:10pm |
re: #641 Killgore Trout
It's kinda interesting. After a years of cozying up the Alex Jones, Ron Paul, the Birch society and 9-11 truthers wingnut bloggers today are embarrassed and outraged by the antics of Ron Paul supporters at CPAC. It's not like we didn't warn them that this would happen.
Can you give a brief synopsis of what they're doing to make people mad? I haven't been following this.
| 644 |
b_sharp Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:29:26pm |
re: #642 Jadespring
:D
At least I made you smile.
Maybe we can change the tenor of this crappy thread.
| 645 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:29:29pm |
re: #643 Jadespring
Can you give a brief synopsis of what they're doing to make people mad? I haven't been following this.
They're heckling Cheney and Rumsfeld speeches by shouting "War criminal" and "Show us the sheckles".
| 646 |
b_sharp Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:31:03pm |
re: #644 b_sharp
At least I made you smile.
Maybe we can change the tenor of this crappy thread.
(I was going to say 'change the smell', but I didn't like the sound of it.)
| 647 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:31:57pm |
| 648 |
Gus Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:32:30pm |
re: #645 Killgore Trout
They're heckling Cheney and Rumsfeld speeches by shouting "War criminal" and "Show us the sheckles".
Sheckles of shackles?
| 650 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:33:04pm |
re: #645 Killgore Trout
They're heckling Cheney and Rumsfeld speeches by shouting "War criminal" and "Show us the sheckles".
Oh dear.
Is it bad that I just laughed?
| 651 |
Alexzander Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:33:07pm |
How long is CPAC and when will we find out the results of the straw poll? If Ron Paul wins again.....
| 652 |
Varek Raith Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:33:31pm |
re: #641 Killgore Trout
It's kinda interesting. After a years of cozying up the Alex Jones, Ron Paul, the Birch society and 9-11 truthers wingnut bloggers today are embarrassed and outraged by the antics of Ron Paul supporters at CPAC. It's not like we didn't warn them that this would happen.
Schadenfreude!
| 653 |
austin_blue Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:34:02pm |
re: #644 b_sharp
At least I made you smile.
Maybe we can change the tenor of this crappy thread.
Let's, shall we?
Good evening all!
Hope everyone in the Lizard Nation is happy, healthy, and bought winning Lottery tickets!
| 654 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:34:30pm |
re: #651 Alexzander
How long is CPAC and when will we find out the results of the straw poll? If Ron Paul wins again...
Foregone conclusion--the attendees/voters are packed, I think by a 'student discount'.
| 655 |
austin_blue Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:35:20pm |
re: #654 Decatur Deb
Foregone conclusion--the attendees/voters are packed, I think by a 'student discount'.
Voting on the straw closes tomorrow night.
| 657 |
Gus Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:37:34pm |
I think it's pretty clear what this Paulian meant. Shekels as in the Israeli currency or "Jewish money".
| 658 |
Stanghazi Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:38:08pm |
Sister Sarah to Santorum (via Hannity)
So I will not call him the knuckle-dragging Neanderthal that perhaps others would want to call him -- I'll let his wife call him that instead.
Popcorn, buttered please.
| 659 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:38:34pm |
I iamgine there are a lot of students from my school's economics department there. I hated discussing issues with Ron Paul fans because they by and large act like Ron Paul can never be wrong or that if you criticize him, you must be a neocon sheep. IT's so funny because on the social issues these kids would be appalled if they knew what Paul really stood for. The same Paulians who I saw belittle religion would be totally shocked that Ron Paul is one of those who echoes the founders were all Christians nonsense.
| 660 |
austin_blue Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:38:57pm |
re: #657 Gus 802
I think it's pretty clear what this Paulian meant. Shekels as in the Israeli currency or "Jewish money".
Bilderbergers!
| 661 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:39:06pm |
re: #658 Stanley Sea
Sister Sarah to Santorum (via Hannity)
Popcorn, buttered please.
Did she seriously say that? !!!
| 663 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:39:17pm |
re: #658 Stanley Sea
Sister Sarah to Santorum (via Hannity)
Popcorn, buttered please.
Haha, I wonder what the rift between those two is about. Can't stand either of them really.
| 665 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:39:47pm |
| 668 |
KingKenrod Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:40:26pm |
re: #658 Stanley Sea
So I will not call him the knuckle-dragging Neanderthal that perhaps others would want to call him -- I'll let his wife call him that instead.
There's no way Palin said something that interesting.
| 669 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:40:52pm |
re: #638 Jadespring
Sure but would you wear pink with lime green and purple spotted PJs, brown mukluks with tassles, covered in a tailored wool coat and not think you looked like an idiot?
I'm all for comfort and soft pants but there is a line...
Only if I had a matching boa.
| 670 |
austin_blue Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:41:07pm |
re: #661 Jadespring
Did she seriously say that? !!!
Yup. Santorum said some pretty condescending things on Sarah!'s lack of attendance.
| 671 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:41:21pm |
re: #667 Stanley Sea
YEP.
[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]
The only two GOP combatants that might be well-matched intellectually.
| 672 |
Varek Raith Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:41:27pm |
re: #658 Stanley Sea
Sister Sarah to Santorum (via Hannity)
Popcorn, buttered please.
The hell they squabbling about???
| 673 |
zora Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:41:34pm |
re: #657 Gus 802
I think it's pretty clear what this Paulian meant. Shekels as in the Israeli currency or "Jewish money".
so is the implication that israel paid the us and/or cheney to go to war?
| 675 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:42:12pm |
| 676 |
Gus Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:42:12pm |
re: #673 zora
so is the implication that israel paid the us and/or cheney to go to war?
Yeah. The usual conspiracy stuff.
| 677 |
Varek Raith Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:42:30pm |
| 678 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:43:10pm |
Okay excuse my confusion I though Sister Sarah was a Palin reference then I thought no it must be someone else because I can't believe she would say that....now I know better.
Wow.
| 679 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:44:09pm |
re: #678 Jadespring
Okay excuse my confusion I though Sister Sarah was a Palin reference then I thought no it must be someone else because I can't believe she would say that...now I know better.
Wow.
She said it, didn't necessarily think it up.
| 680 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:44:16pm |
I am telling you the 2012 primary is going to be fun to watch. A lot of knuckle dragging, name calling, and calls of not being a real conservative or heir to Reagan.
| 681 |
zora Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:44:18pm |
re: #672 Varek Raith
The hell they squabbling about???
[Link: www.mediaite.com...]
Did Sarah Palin Just Call Rick Santorum A Knuckle Dragging Neanderthal?
| 682 |
Gus Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:45:19pm |
You have to admit that Santorum does have longer arms than Palin. I think Palin just attained broken clock status for the day.
| 683 |
Varek Raith Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:45:55pm |
Cro Magnon Palin vs. Neanderthal Santorum!
FIGHT!
| 684 |
Four More Tears Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:46:22pm |
| 685 |
zora Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:46:41pm |
re: #678 Jadespring
Okay excuse my confusion I though Sister Sarah was a Palin reference then I thought no it must be someone else because I can't believe she would say that...now I know better.
Wow.
he made a comment about her not coming to cpac for a couple of reasons.
1. not gonna get paid
2. she's got so many kids
#2 is what she ripped him a new one for. can't say i blame her on this one.
| 686 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:47:53pm |
| 687 |
Gus Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:48:00pm |
| 688 |
b_sharp Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:48:36pm |
I don't think the arms of Homo neanderthalensis were any longer than those of Homo sapiens.
| 690 |
Jadespring Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:49:35pm |
re: #685 zora
he made a comment about her not coming to cpac for a couple of reasons.
1. not gonna get paid
2. she's got so many kids#2 is what she ripped him a new one for. can't say i blame her on this one.
I think they're both idiots. Part of the same cloth. Peas in a pod. They both deserve what they get thrown at them.
| 691 |
Stanghazi Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:49:40pm |
re: #688 b_sharp
I don't think the arms of Homo neanderthalensis were any longer than those of Homo sapiens.
HEY! I thought Sister Sarah didn't believe in evolution!!! lol
| 692 |
b_sharp Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:49:51pm |
re: #689 zora
btw. santorum has seven or eight kids himself.
This knuckle dragging atheist can eat that many kids in one sitting.
| 693 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:50:24pm |
re: #689 zora
btw. santorum has seven or eight kids himself.
Yeah, knew that. He's a jerk. I can't stand her but I don't blame her for responding the way she did. I think he's just a petty dick because he knows that she has much more political influence than he does in that political community. Not that I'd want political influence myself among CPACers but SAntorum seems like he may be making a run next year.
| 694 |
b_sharp Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:50:57pm |
re: #691 Stanley Sea
HEY! I thought Sister Sarah didn't believe in evolution!!! lol
Neither does Santoruium num. (whatever)
T
| 695 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:51:42pm |
Ron Paul tries to get his nuts to behave themselves.....
Dear Friend of Liberty,
Thank you for purchasing your ticket for CPAC, which will be held in Washington, D.C. this coming weekend. It is vital the defenders of liberty have a good showing at the Conference.
C4L's staff tells me that thousands of individuals from all across the country will be joining us at what I expect to be the best CPAC yet. I am excited about the events, speakers, and discussions Campaign for Liberty is sponsoring in addition to many of those being put on by CPAC itself.
I wanted to take a minute to send this note of thanks to you for investing your time and resources to help make our showing at the Conference the best possible.
I also wanted to convey a personal request to you as you get ready for CPAC. I ask that you please remain respectful of all speakers and presenters as you attend the numerous events throughout the weekend. Though you may have opposing views with some, it is vital we act in a professional manner which builds up our movement.
C4L has been welcomed by CPAC as a sponsor and looks to build upon the success we had last year. I believe how we conduct ourselves at this Conference will help set the tone for how the liberty movement is viewed going forward.
It is precisely because I know you are a dedicated activist that I am asking for your help with this. We must remember that we serve as a continual example of the liberty message.
In some cases, the constitution of our character may be the only Constitution an individual will ever read.
Please read the following information from John Tate regarding specific details for CPAC. You will find the information extremely useful as you make your way to Washington, D.C. and take part in an engaging, uplifting weekend.
I look forward to seeing you at CPAC!
For Liberty,
Ron Paul
| 696 |
Varek Raith Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:52:16pm |
| 698 |
zora Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:52:56pm |
re: #693 HappyWarrior
Yeah, knew that. He's a jerk. I can't stand her but I don't blame her for responding the way she did. I think he's just a petty dick because he knows that she has much more political influence than he does in that political community. Not that I'd want political influence myself among CPACers but SAntorum seems like he may be making a run next year.
part of me hopes sarah is in the primaries just so i can watch her each their lunch. i wonder what emasculating finishing moves she has in store.
| 699 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:54:15pm |
re: #691 Stanley Sea
HEY! I thought Sister Sarah didn't believe in evolution!!! lol
It was a 6000 year old Neanderthal.
| 700 |
zora Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:54:35pm |
re: #695 Killgore Trout
so he thinks the nuts can be wrangled. from teabagger to nutwrangler. couldn't resist.
| 701 |
Gus Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:55:09pm |
re: #699 Decatur Deb
It was a 6000 year old Neanderthal.
The Earth was a very crowded place 6000 years ago.
//
| 703 |
b_sharp Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:55:53pm |
re: #700 zora
so he thinks the nuts can be wrangled. from teabagger to nutwrangler. couldn't resist.
Brilliant. You one upped me.
| 704 |
Buck Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:56:02pm |
re: #84 SanFranciscoZionist
Did Mubarak or Sadat ever actually characterize their agreement as an imposition of jizya? I would be interested to see links, if so.
It was in arabic to leaders of other ME countries. Mubarak even said that IF the other countries wanted to pay him the money to make war he would.
I originally read the quote in Hebrew in a israeli newspaper, long before there were links.
However, it has also been described as a bribe, if you prefer that...fine with me. It certainly was not aid in the traditional sense, and if any strings are attached it is only don't attack Israel.
| 705 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:56:13pm |
| 706 |
Buck Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:57:16pm |
re: #108 talon_262
Funny...I didn't know that, collectively, the American taxpayer were "people of the book", Buck.
/seems I've been missing out on some ZOG perks...
No the money might come from the USA, but it is paid to protect Israel/
| 707 |
Varek Raith Thu, Feb 10, 2011 4:59:11pm |
| 708 |
reine.de.tout Thu, Feb 10, 2011 5:40:12pm |
re: #572 LudwigVanQuixote
I really am giong to log out soon.
I would have thought that the logic was pretty clear.
1. There are clearly sane and decent people in the south.
2. We live in a republic that votes by majority.
3. The south produces an endless parade of backwards whackos elected to office.
4. Therefore the sane southerners are not the majority.
5. Therefore it is proper to talk about how messed up the South clearly is and pretending it isn't doesn't help anyone.
No one is pretending that racism does not exist in the South. Some, however, seem to want to pretend it is the ONLY place racism exists.
My post was not about southern history or racism or how messed up YOU think the south is.
My post was about your own bias and prejudice. And your repeated portrayal of southerners as evil, drooling, slack-jawed redneck heathens is just that - your own bias and prejudice.
I know many quite attractive southerners who are as evil as the day is long. Let's see - DAVID DUKE is a nice looking man, and was really nice-looking when he was younger, and as far as I can see, not dentally-challenged one bit.
I also know quite a few people of several different racial backgrounds who have not had the benefit of good dental or orthodontal care who are quite wonderful folks.
And my own chin is a bit "slack" in appearance, truth be known.
You are so blinded by your own utter contempt of anything southern, that you cannot (or you refuse to) see that you are AS prejudiced and biased as those you rail against.
I don't like prejudice based on race, religion, skin-color, regional background, national background, what-the-hell-ever. I find it ugly. And I think I think it's ugly wherever I see it. And you have an abundance of it when it comes to "the south".
You want to talk about the history of the south? You want to talk about racism? Fine. Those are good discussions to have. But that's not what you talk about. You just like to call people the nastiest possible names you can think of. And it's tiresome.
| 709 |
austin_blue Thu, Feb 10, 2011 5:56:35pm |
re: #695 Killgore Trout
Well, that worked well, didn't it?
| 710 |
lostlakehiker Thu, Feb 10, 2011 6:23:19pm |
re: #620 Jadespring
A little levity in an otherwise serious discussion.
I realized that it was getting dark and it was starting to storm and I hadn't got dog food. So I threw on my jacket and ran right out the door to get to the store before the roads got bad. Halfway there I realized I was still in my PJs and that they LOOKED obviously like pjs. Also realized that color wise I completely clashing and looked like an idiot. I even had a furry hat with ear flaps on.
Damn, ugh... okee not turning back now.
So I steeled myself and went in all the while thinking that if I was in Walmart that it would be more then reasonable for someone to take a picture and post it to that site.
Of course it's a small town and I ran into people I knew.
Ugh...glad to be home now...
I wouldn't worry about it too much. If you just carry yourself with dignity it won't much matter how silly-looking your outfit may be. Clothes don't make the man, or the woman for that matter.
| 711 |
Prononymous, rogue demon hunter Thu, Feb 10, 2011 6:37:55pm |
It would have been better to put this post here. I'm damn slow, lol.
| 712 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Feb 10, 2011 6:38:52pm |
re: #708 reine.de.tout
How many times do I need to write that I don't hate all Southerners and that I certainly don't think all things Southern are evil?
When have I ever considered racism and religious intolerance to be a purely Southern thing?
As to slack jawed redneck heathens we have those up North too. They just don't win as many elections - and that Reine is the issue.
| 713 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 6:49:56pm |
re: #577 lostlakehiker
Romans were not Nazis. They just weren't.
The British Empire is a better fit. And our own rebellion included a sober look at the odds. It was granted, in the discussion leading up to the decision for war, that some thought had to be given to whether victory were possible.
Our own rebellion was from a place of much greater strength. People in the colonies were ethnic English, and their land was not being taken from them, and they were not being slaughtered in vast numbers. That was not the case for everyone who tussled with the British Empire.
| 714 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 10, 2011 7:44:13pm |
re: #606 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Well, the Finnish did have Simo Hayha...
And having him was better than having a hundred of most people...
| 715 |
Bob Levin Fri, Feb 11, 2011 12:47:29am |
re: #372 Robert O.
Yes, variables are being created faster than time is passing. It's impossible to predict what will happen next, and it's impossible to fully understand each moment.
However, unless there is an agricultural revolution across the region, all political solutions will be very weak. You can't grow food with votes. Plows help, seed helps, fertilizer and water sure help, votes--not so much.
| 716 |
Bob Levin Fri, Feb 11, 2011 1:13:10am |
re: #535 SanFranciscoZionist
And sometimes they win. For instance, the American Revolution. Another instance, the War of 1812. Another instance, the Six Day War.
| 717 |
Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Feb 11, 2011 1:17:47am |
Mubarak is hanging on to save face and buy time to move his assets to somewhere they cannot be frozen or impoiunded. Once his piasters are parked safely, he will leave the country "for medical reasons".
| 718 |
Bob Levin Fri, Feb 11, 2011 2:02:24am |
re: #713 SanFranciscoZionist
Our own rebellion was from a place of much greater strength.
Not really. A majority of people did not want to fight. A majority of the army could not fight because of a lack of skill. The army itself was an almost transient bunch, frequently leaving to tend to their crops.
However, what we did have was a different style of fighting and a strategy better suited to our terrain.
It is not uncommon for a smaller force to defeat a larger force.
Alone in a Bathroom: The Fear and Uncertainty of a Post-Roe Medication Abortion Angel tucked two white pills into each side of her mouth, bracing herself as they began to dissolve. Her deepest fears and anxieties took over. Angel had wanted to talk to a doctor before she took the pills to ...
Cheechako
They Were Desperate to Get Pregnant. Then IVF Gave Them Extra Embryos. One morning last spring, Ashley Harrolle put her 1-year-old daughter down for a nap and went to the kitchen. She pulled up her fertility clinic’s contact information. It was time to make the call. In a freezer several hundred ... CheechakoJoe Bacon ✅
March FavoritesYou've seen these all already but looking back, just because. These are my favorite shots of this last month. That 1937 Zeiss Sonnar is such a gloriously wonderful bit of glass. Thanks for looking.
William Lewis
Russia’s New Combat Robots Blown Up by Drones Near Avdiivka When we landed on the moon, I thought about how science fiction had become real. Now, the robot wars have begun. It's more poignant somehow on the ground than in the missile wars we have in the air as ...
Rightwingconspirator
Why Did More Than 1,000 People Die After Police Subdued Them With Force That Isn’t Meant to Kill? An investigation led by The Associated Press has found that, over a decade, more than 1,000 people died after police subdued them through physical holds, stun guns, body blows and other force not intended to be lethal. More: Why ... CheechakoKGxvi
Abortions Outside Medical System Increased Sharply After Roe Fell, Study Finds The number of women using abortion pills to end their pregnancies on their own without the direct involvement of a U.S.-based medical provider rose sharply in the months after the Supreme Court eliminated a constitutional right to abortion, according ... Cheechako
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ... Cheechako
