New Egyptian Poll: Not an Islamic Uprising

A phone survey shows very low popular support for the Muslim Brotherhood
Middle East • Views: 39,544

The results of a new phone survey commissioned by the Washington Institute for Near East Policy show that Egypt is not going to become an Islamic theocracy ruled by the Muslim Brotherhood, despite the relentless fear-mongering of the American right wing.

Key Findings:

This is not an Islamic uprising. The Muslim Brotherhood is “approved” by just 15%, and its leaders get barely 1% in a presidential straw vote. Asked to pick national priorities, just 12% choose shariah over national power, democracy, or economic development. Asked to explain the uprising, economic conditions, corruption, and unemployment (30‐40% each) far outpace “regime not Islamic enough” (7%).

Surprisingly, asked two different ways about the peace treaty with Israel, more support it (37%) than oppose it (22%). Only 18% approve of either Hamas or Iran. And a mere 5% say the uprising occurred because the regime is “too pro‐Israel.”

El Baradei has very little popular support in a presidential straw vote (4%), far outpaced by Amr Musa (29%). But Mubarak and Omar Suleiman each get 18%.

A narrow plurality (36% vs. 29%) say Egypt should have good relations with the U.S. And just 8% say the uprising is against a “too pro‐American regime.” Still, something over half disapprove of our handling of this crisis and say they don’t trust the U.S. at all.

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282 comments
1 Tumulus11  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:23:43am

. No theocracy. The demonstrators won't have it.

2 Dom  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:24:21am

Thanks for posting this!

3 insanity police  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:25:04am

I wish the newly freed people of Egypt the best of luck! We should help them fight all kinds of extremists so that they can forge a modern, bright and peaceful future.

4 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:25:49am

So, basically, the Egyptian people are about half as likely to vote for theocratic dictatorship than the American people.

5 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:27:22am

re: #4 Fozzie Bear

PIMF.

*as* the American people.

6 Dom  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:27:53am

It is interesting to note that there is massive disapproval of the Sudan referendum. Bloody hypocrites.

7 Randy W. Weeks  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:28:43am

/wingnut on

But Muslims are allowed to lie to infidels!

/wingnut off

8 Girl with a Pearl Earring  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:29:31am

Well then, I guess that settles it!

9 lawhawk  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:30:12am

re: #6 Dom

That could represent a fear that some portion of Egypt may take a cue to split off from Egypt as well. It's a situation that could apply to the Sinai, or even parts of Southern Egypt from the Northern part through the Nile Delta.

10 Dom  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:31:37am

re: #9 lawhawk

I read it also as unvarnished Arabism but that is an interesting factor! Quite possible.

11 avanti  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:33:27am

"Rush agrees with Beck: This uprising was not spontaneous. This is classic community organizing in Egypt "

Some on the right thing this is horrible news, and the start of Beck's warped vision of the future.

12 Jadespring  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:34:21am

re: #8 Girl with a Pearl Earring

Well then, I guess that settles it!

???

What are you talking about?

13 Summer Seale  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:34:36am

My heart is filled with gladness that many other Arab dictators are trembling in their boots tonight. =)

14 Ericus58  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:35:48am

P.M. Cameron is speaking live in regards to the event in Egypt.
A bit short, but supportive of those seeking change for a democratic rule.

Merkel has also spoken out in regards to this event.

I think the U.S. is coming out looking like playing catch-up.

15 Nevertires  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:37:28am

The media coverage that I have been watching seemed to reflect these poll numbers. But I guess that depends greatly on your sources of information.

There has been some stellar reporting from Egypt including journalists talking to people of differing opinion in their various neighbourhoods.

In the end I truly hope that the country gets the freedoms that the protesters seem to desparately want. It will be interesting to watch this process roll out and I hope that our governments act in the best interests of the Egyptian people.

16 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:38:38am

re: #12 Jadespring

???

What are you talking about?

I'm not sure Pearl believes the poll.

17 recusancy  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:39:18am

re: #14 Ericus58

pssst... this is an egyptian day. not american.

18 Jadespring  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:39:33am

re: #16 reine.de.tout

I'm not sure Pearl believes the poll.

Ah okay. Wasn't sure what they were responding too. A comment or the OP.

19 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:40:29am

Has what we have watched unfold in Eqypt in the last three weeks happened before in history?

20 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:41:55am

As I said previously, Congratulations to the people of Egypt. We hope your future leaders will have the wisdom to cast aside old prejudices and a decrepit islamist ideology so that your country, your neighbors, and the entire world can move in a positive direction.

Bravo Egyptians

21 mr.fusion  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:42:08am

But but......muslim brotherhood!!1!

The word muslim is right in the name! And they're in Egypt and junk!!!11!!

22 Michael McBacon  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:42:33am

Huckabee: Mubarak was pro-American, unlike that Obama fellow. "The Israelites" told me.

(MediaMatters)

23 RadicalModerate  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:42:37am

re: #19 ggt

Has what we have watched unfold in Eqypt in the last three weeks happened before in history?

The closest parallel I can think of personally is the fall of the Berlin Wall.

24 RogueOne  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:42:38am

re: #1 Tumulus11

. No theocracy. The demonstrators won't have it.

[Link: pewglobal.org...]


At least three-quarters of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan say they would favor making each of the following the law in their countries: stoning people who commit adultery, whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery and the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion.

and


Opinions are about evenly divided in Egypt, where 48% of Muslims say Islam plays a large role in their country’s political life and 49% say it plays only a small role.
......
In Egypt.... majorities of Muslims who say Islam is playing a large role in politics see this as a good thing (95%), while majorities of those who say Islam is playing only a small role say this is bad for their country(80%).

This revolution wasn't about religion but that doesn't mean the majority of Egypt wouldn't like religion to play a more prominent role.

25 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:42:41am

re: #19 ggt

Has what we have watched unfold in Eqypt in the last three weeks happened before in history?

I have to go, but I would say yes.

26 avanti  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:43:01am

re: #19 ggt

Has what we have watched unfold in Eqypt in the last three weeks happened before in history?

East Berlin, and the eastern block comes to mind.

27 Ericus58  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:43:11am

re: #17 recusancy

pssst... this is an egyptian day. not american.

That made no sense, sorry. I was noting the other leaders who have made a statement and with none forthcoming from the U.S. as yet. I think that's notable, in respect to how the U.S. is the #1 aid provider to Egypt.

It's been remarked about by not just me, but some in the international media.

28 Jadespring  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:43:16am

Ha ha. One thing I have grown to appreciate over the past couple of weeks is the humor.

Ghonim Wael Ghonim
by acarvin
Mubarak said he will be running for presidency in Tunisia and millions of Tunisians are calling for Bin Ali to return #Jan25

29 Four More Tears  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:44:04am

I wonder what this capitulation could mean for the rest of the region.

30 Usually refered to as anyways  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:44:44am

I wish the people of Egypt a democratic prosperous future.
I believe it is the first successful uprising by the people in Egypt history.

I question how representative a poll of 300 odd people is.

31 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:46:14am

bencnn benwedeman
Thank god cairo back to normal. Blaring horns, crazy traffic, people everywhere!!! #egypt
18 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

and then this interesting note, can't verify accuracy of course:


SultanAlQassemi Sultan Al Qassemi
BREAKING: Al Jazeera: Switzerland foreign ministry spokesperson announces that all Mubarak's assets have been frozen

32 Kragar  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:46:21am

re: #22 UNIXon

Huckabee: Mubarak was pro-American, unlike that Obama fellow. "The Israelites" told me.

(MediaMatters)

33 avanti  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:47:08am

BTW, Fox is screwed when it comes to covering historical evens like this. They have no real reporters on the ground, CNN is eating their lunch when it come to raw news reporting. I don't see any of the pretty blonds in Liberation square.

34 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:47:15am

re: #27 Ericus58

That made no sense, sorry. I was noting the other leaders who have made a statement and with none forthcoming from the U.S. as yet. I think that's notable, in respect to how the U.S. is the #1 aid provider to Egypt.

It's been remarked about by not just me, but some in the international media.

Ghonim Wael Ghonim
Dear Western Governments, You've been silent for 30 years supporting the regime that was oppressing us. Please don't get involved now #Jan25

35 recusancy  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:48:00am

re: #27 Ericus58

That made no sense, sorry. I was noting the other leaders who have made a statement and with none forthcoming from the U.S. as yet. I think that's notable, in respect to how the U.S. is the #1 aid provider to Egypt.

It's been remarked about by not just me, but some in the international media.

Obama's speaking at 1:30 during the daily press briefing. It's not his fault that you aren't aware of that.

36 Ericus58  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:48:01am

I expect the attention to turn toward Jordan in the near future as the possible next country to experience a push for change.

I think Jordan would be much more problematic.

37 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:48:18am

re: #27 Ericus58

That made no sense, sorry. I was noting the other leaders who have made a statement and with none forthcoming from the U.S. as yet. I think that's notable, in respect to how the U.S. is the #1 aid provider to Egypt.

It's been remarked about by not just me, but some in the international media.

Biden speaking up, apparently:

SultanAlQassemi Sultan Al Qassemi
World reactions: Joseph Biden "This is a pivotal moment in history... the transition that's taking place must be an irreversible change"
38 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:48:41am

re: #8 Girl with a Pearl Earring

Well then, I guess that settles it!

Xenophobic and paranoid is no way to go through life.

39 Tumulus11  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:49:36am

. Last Thursday in Tahrir Square, under attack from pro-Mubarak thugs, Coptic Christians linked hands to form a protective perimeter around Muslims at prayer. When it was time for the Christians to pray, the Muslims protestors turned down their loudspeakers and formed a barrier to protect the Christians in turn.

The Egyptian people have already said no to theocracy through their actions. This is not a just a change of regimes - it's a true people's revolution.

40 Kragar  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:50:11am

re: #38 Charles

Xenophobic and paranoid is no way to go through life.

Eh, it pays the bills.
/

41 wrenchwench  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:50:25am

A pretty good column from Nicholas Kristof: Avoiding a New Pharaoh.

You should read it all, but here's the ending:

May Mubarak’s resignation mark a milestone toward their goal — and I think it is, but it’s not the end of the journey. And let’s hope that the United States makes absolutely clear that it stands for full democracy, not just for some kind of false stability that derives from authoritarianism. The Obama administration missed the boat in the last few weeks, but I thought yesterday’s speech and statement by President Obama marked an improvement. Let’s hope it continues. May Mubarak’s resignation mark a new beginning — in Egypt, and also in wiser American policy toward Egypt and the Arab world.
42 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:51:17am

Any statements out of Israel?

43 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:51:31am

re: #19 ggt

Has what we have watched unfold in Eqypt in the last three weeks happened before in history?

The Velvet Revolution. Different circumstances, obviously, but some parallels, e.g. "domino effect" of other events happening in the Soviet Union.

44 Girl with a Pearl Earring  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:52:00am

re: #38 Charles

LOL!

45 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:53:44am

He probably won't be mentioned in the media today, but I say George W. Bush should be feeling pretty good today. If he never helped get rid of saddam, Iraq would not have had a chance to "test drive" democracy in the heart of the arab world. Bush was supposedly pretty tough on Mubarak for his treatment of his people, so his moral compass was aligned well. He misplayed gaza, but his heart was in the right place. But setting in motion the idea of democracy in the arab world was a first step. The revolutions in Egypt and Tunisia were a second. And hopefully the people of Iran will have their day in the near future.

46 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:53:44am

re: #43 negativ

The Velvet Revolution. Different circumstances, obviously, but some parallels, e.g. "domino effect" of other events happening in the Soviet Union.

It will be interesting to watch if there is a "domino effect" in the ME.

Feeling really hopeful today.

47 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:54:38am

re: #45 _RememberTonyC

He probably won't be mentioned in the media today, but I say George W. Bush should be feeling pretty good today. If he never helped get rid of saddam, Iraq would not have had a chance to "test drive" democracy in the heart of the arab world. Bush was supposedly pretty tough on Mubarak for his treatment of his people, so his moral compass was aligned well. He misplayed gaza, but his heart was in the right place. But setting in motion the idea of democracy in the arab world was a first step. The revolutions in Egypt and Tunisia were a second. And hopefully the people of Iran will have their day in the near future.

I was also wondering how history would treat Bush 2 and these events. We shall see how the next months unfold . . .

48 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:55:10am

Regardless, the Right Wing talking points are going to be that Obama "lost" Egypt and that the theocrats are going to take over and make it into Iran on the Nile.

Yes, it is going to be more Islamic than we might like it to be, but for that it will be more democratic.

49 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:56:23am

re: #48 ralphieboy

Regardless, the Right Wing talking points are going to be that Obama "lost" Egypt and that the theocrats are going to take over and make it into Iran on the Nile.

Yes, it is going to be more Islamic than we might like it to be, but for that it will be more democratic.

The ME turns more democratic and some what it to be more theocratic here.

It might turn out like a Twilight Zone episode . .

:)

50 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:56:47am

re: #45 _RememberTonyC

That was no "test drive" save in the "bend over, I'll drive" sense.

Getting rid of Saddam had nothing to do with kick-starting popular democratic movements in other Middle East nations.

51 avanti  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:57:00am

re: #45 _RememberTonyC

He probably won't be mentioned in the media today, but I say George W. Bush should be feeling pretty good today. If he never helped get rid of saddam, Iraq would not have had a chance to "test drive" democracy in the heart of the arab world. Bush was supposedly pretty tough on Mubarak for his treatment of his people, so his moral compass was aligned well. He misplayed gaza, but his heart was in the right place. But setting in motion the idea of democracy in the arab world was a first step. The revolutions in Egypt and Tunisia were a second. And hopefully the people of Iran will have their day in the near future.

I'll give you that one, it was Bush's dream to spread democracy in the mid east. It's a long road ahead, but I'm hopeful that we're making baby steps.

52 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:57:00am

re: #35 recusancy

Obama's speaking at 1:30 during the daily press briefing. It's not his fault that you aren't aware of that.

And don't forget... it's 6 to 8 or more hours later in the day in those other countries. Those leaders have had a lot more time to prepare their statements than President Obama.

53 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:57:36am

I'm gonna say this. Just because this is not an "Islamic uprising", ie, the man in the street isn't doing it because he likes the Muslim Brotherhood, doesn't mean they can't end up in power.

Also, just because they don't end up in power this week doesn't mean they can't be in power in a year or two.

Check with Marjane Satrapi's parents on this one.

I hope Egypt can find a happy outcome, but right now, I am not betting the house on a phone survey.

54 Jadespring  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:57:46am

Just watching interviews of Egyptians in Toronto. Their happiness and emotion is catching.

55 justaminute  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:58:38am

Congratulations to the Egyptian people. You were able to achieve victory not with guns but with perseverance. May you show the way forward for other oppressed people in the Middle East. May you also show another face to the West as a nation where all religions can live together without oppression. I hope the faces of the Egyptian people replaces the faces of Muslim extremism in America. Please let the government in Iran be embarrassed that their form of Islam will be rejected. Today is a good day.

56 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:58:57am

re: #53 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm gonna say this. Just because this is not an "Islamic uprising", ie, the man in the street isn't doing it because he likes the Muslim Brotherhood, doesn't mean they can't end up in power.

Also, just because they don't end up in power this week doesn't mean they can't be in power in a year or two.

Check with Marjane Satrapi's parents on this one.

I hope Egypt can find a happy outcome, but right now, I am not betting the house on a phone survey.

That was just a cartoon.

57 avanti  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:59:18am

So cool, a CNN gal correspondent is the heart of the crowd giving interviews, no sign of the government thugs. (Or Fox TV for that matter)

58 recusancy  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:00:35am

re: #57 avanti

So cool, a CNN gal correspondent is the heart of the crowd giving interviews, no sign of the government thugs. (Or Fox TV for that matter)

Arwa Damon

59 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:00:43am

This was on npr.org Author writes for the Weekly Standard. NPR seems to be one of the most "Fair and Balanced". imho.

So was Bush right? In one sense, it will be years, perhaps decades or even longer before we can have an accurate accounting. It is worth recalling that all these nascent Arab democracies are just now taking root in a part of the world with a culture and history many times older than that of the United States, arguably the world's oldest democracy. This is a messy process, democracy, and intentionally so. It is not by any means a perfect system, but it is the ideal form of governance to account for the imperfect nature of man, the political animal.

That is to say, in another sense, yes, Bush was right, and every American knows it — for it is only democracy that allows those voices not only to be heard, but to reach consensus without resorting to violence.

60 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:01:10am

re: #50 ralphieboy

That was no "test drive" save in the "bend over, I'll drive" sense.

Getting rid of Saddam had nothing to do with kick-starting popular democratic movements in other Middle East nations.

you are dreadfully wrong, my friend.

61 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:02:36am

I guess it will all depend on how Israel fairs thru all of this.

62 blueraven  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:03:17am

re: #42 ggt

Any statements out of Israel?

One from Huckabee, who speaks for Israel now I guess. //

63 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:04:18am

re: #62 blueraven

One from Huckabee, who speaks for Israel now I guess. //

I always thought Huckabee would make a good minister or uncle, but why he is in the public form, I'll never know.

64 recusancy  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:04:36am

re: #60 _RememberTonyC

you are dreadfully wrong, my friend.

How the hell does us invading a country and setting up a broken government at gun point effect egyptians to revolt? This is of the egyptians doing. If you want to give anybody credit give it to Mark Zuckerberg and western education.

65 Kragar  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:04:58am

So Romney is in the middle of his speech and a Sarah Palin impersonator shows up at CPAC right then, spurring rumors she's there, and people start leaving to see her. A cynical man would question the timing.

66 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:05:27am

re: #60 _RememberTonyC


Iran was driving along fine as a democracy until the CIA derailed it in 1953, it has been a wreck ever since. We have supported or tolerated any sort of dictator in the region who would go along with our foreign policy.

And if you think we invaded Iraq with the purpose of "installing democracy", you are terribly wrong yourself.

67 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:06:36am

re: #66 ralphieboy

Iran was driving along fine as a democracy until the CIA derailed it in 1953, it has been a wreck ever since. We have supported or tolerated any sort of dictator in the region who would go along with our foreign policy.

And if you think we invaded Iraq with the purpose of "installing democracy", you are terribly wrong yourself.

Regardless of the "perceived" purpose, what was the result?

68 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:07:00am

re: #56 Walter L. Newton

That was just a cartoon.

You're right. I was getting it confused with the Battle of Helms Deep. That really happened, right?

69 avanti  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:08:05am

re: #58 recusancy

Arwa Damon

Thanks, she's one brave gal, even though the crowd seems safe, it just takes one thug. Just a few days ago, she escaped a mob incited by Mubarak goons, and she in the thick of it again. Nice to see real reporters, not just talking heads.

70 Buck  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:08:20am

The BBC's Persian TV service is being jammed from within Iran due to its coverage of the unrest in Egypt.

It appears that the trigger point was a joint broadcast on Wednesday by the corporation's Persian and Arabic services in which Iranian and Egyptian callers exchanged views.

Many Iranian viewers said during the interactive programme that they were watching events unfold in Cairo extremely closely.

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

71 Jadespring  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:08:21am

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

Switzerland has frozen assets possibly belonging to Hosni Mubarak, who stepped down as president of Egypt Friday after 30 years of rule, a spokesman for the foreign ministry said.

"I can confirm that Switzerland has frozen possible assets of the former Egyptian president with immediate effect," spokesman Lars Knuchel said, declining to specify how much money was involved.

In recent years, Switzerland has worked hard to improve its image as a haven for ill-gotten assets and has also frozen assets belonging to Tunisia's former President Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali as well as those of Ivory Coast's Laurent Gbagbo.

72 recusancy  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:08:25am

re: #67 ggt

Regardless of the "perceived" purpose, what was the result?

Huge debt. Thousands dead. Strengthened Iran.

73 Usually refered to as anyways  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:08:40am

re: #67 ggt

Regardless of the "perceived" purpose, what was the result?

A broken government and Sharia Law and lots of displaced people?

74 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:08:47am

re: #63 ggt

I always thought Huckabee would make a good minister or uncle, but why he is in the public form, I'll never know.

I really like Huckabee, on a personal level. He seems like a warm, balanced, interesting man.

On a political level, he's horrifying.

75 RadicalModerate  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:08:49am

Oliver "I never lied to Congress" North over at FoxNews has weighed in with his take on Egypt - Note that the byline on this was posted with today's date:

Egypt Crisis Highlights U.S. Intelligence Failures

The Obama administration has compounded the problem by variously defining the major threats to U.S. national security as global warming, climate change, right-wing extremism, homegrown terrorists, and economic collapse. Meanwhile, our risk-averse "intelligence managers" have all but eliminated the collection of human intelligence, the key to protecting U.S. troops fighting an insurgency in Afghanistan and anticipating events like the one we now see in Egypt.

76 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:09:36am

re: #68 SanFranciscoZionist

You're right. I was getting it confused with the Battle of Helms Deep. That really happened, right?

You're humor meter is evidently broken today... I leave you alone.

77 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:10:02am

re: #68 SanFranciscoZionist

You're right. I was getting it confused with the Battle of Helms Deep. That really happened, right?

Helm's Deep was a great Battle! I could watch it over and over.

Theoden: So much death. What can men do against such reckless hate?
Aragorn: Ride out with me. Ride out and meet them.

78 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:10:07am

re: #76 Walter L. Newton

You're humor meter is evidently broken today... I leave you alone.

My humor meter is fine! YOUR humor meter is broken! Hah!

79 mr.fusion  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:10:26am

re: #51 avanti

I'll give you that one, it was Bush's dream to spread democracy in the mid east. It's a long road ahead, but I'm hopeful that we're making baby steps.

Please

To give credit to anyone other than the people in the streets of Cairo just shows arrogance.

Look at the differences between what happened in Egypt and what happened in Iraq. 300 dead in Egypt....how many in Iraq? How many billions of dollars spent? And for what type of government?

And no mention of the Tunisians who actually started this wave across the ME? I mean.....how in the world can you credit the Iraq War, 8 years later, when Tunisia took place just weeks ago? Have you heard any of the protesters mention Iraq? Because I've heard many many many Egyptians say Tunisia was the main source of inspiration.

80 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:10:40am

re: #78 SanFranciscoZionist

My humor meter is fine! YOUR humor meter is broken! Hah!

Bullshit. And I'm not laughing.

81 Gus  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:11:19am
Asked to explain the uprising, economic conditions, corruption, and unemployment (30‐40% each) far outpace “regime not Islamic enough” (7%).

I'm sure that if you interviewed the protesters on the streets of Cairo that many of them would say that in addition to freedom from the Mubarak regime they would also say: it's the economy stupid.

82 Jadespring  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:11:24am

Ha ha

Sandmonkey Sandmonkey
If u r in heliopolis come and join us in korba. At starbucks. Alcohol for everyone. #jan25

83 Kragar  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:11:36am

re: #77 ggt

Helm's Deep was a great Battle! I could watch it over and over.

300 Elven Archers and they couldn't down one naked ork with a sparkler.

84 RadicalModerate  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:11:47am

Swiss embassy just reported that they are requesting freezing of all assets belonging to the Mubarak family.

85 Alexzander  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:12:39am

re: #82 Jadespring

Ha ha

Sandmonkey Sandmonkey
If u r in heliopolis come and join us in korba. At starbucks. Alcohol for everyone. #jan25

Sandmonkey seems like he'd been an awesome person to share a drink and a laugh with.

86 Stanghazi  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:13:10am

RT @SavannahGuthrie More Biden in KY: "I say to my Iranian friends: let your people march, let your people speak....it's a bankrupt system"

87 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:13:24am

re: #84 RadicalModerate

Swiss embassy just reported that they are requesting freezing of all assets belonging to the Mubarak family.

Can't even trust the Swiss anymore... what's this world coming to. I'm going to move my money to a secure data haven in the south pacific.

88 Gus  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:13:26am

I'm sure this poll will be very disappointing to the war mongers. Been a while since I used that phrase.

89 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:13:39am

re: #72 recusancy

Huge debt. Thousands dead. Strengthened Iran.

re: #73 ozbloke

A broken government and Sharia Law and lots of displaced people?

women voting,

no more: torture chambers, children in prison,

no new mass graves of Iraq's.

Saddamn's sons are no longer treating the country as their own ghoulish Disney Land.

90 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:14:02am

re: #67 ggt

Regardless of the "perceived" purpose, what was the result?


A government that is a lot more Islamist than anything we would like to see in Egypt.

91 Usually refered to as anyways  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:14:37am

re: #87 Walter L. Newton

Can't even trust the Swiss anymore... what's this world coming to. I'm going to move my money to a secure data haven in the south pacific.

I'm in the South Pacific, I can look after it.

92 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:15:04am

re: #82 Jadespring

Ha ha

Sandmonkey Sandmonkey
If u r in heliopolis come and join us in korba. At starbucks. Alcohol for everyone. #jan25

They serve alcohol at the Starbucks in Heliopolis?

93 recusancy  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:15:17am

re: #89 ggt

re: #73 ozbloke

women voting,

no more: torture chambers, children in prison,

no new mass graves of Iraq's.

Saddamn's sons are no longer treating the country as their own ghoulish Disney Land.

Yeah. We just moved the torture chambers here. And I'm pretty sure we added to those mass graves. Ethnic cleansing took care of the rest.

94 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:15:17am

re: #91 ozbloke

I'm in the South Pacific, I can look after it.

Just make sure that it is well above sea level...

95 avanti  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:15:19am

re: #79 mr.fusion

Please

To give credit to anyone other than the people in the streets of Cairo just shows arrogance.

Look at the differences between what happened in Egypt and what happened in Iraq. 300 dead in Egypt...how many in Iraq? How many billions of dollars spent? And for what type of government?

And no mention of the Tunisians who actually started this wave across the ME? I mean...how in the world can you credit the Iraq War, 8 years later, when Tunisia took place just weeks ago? Have you heard any of the protesters mention Iraq? Because I've heard many many many Egyptians say Tunisia was the main source of inspiration.

I'm not a fan of Bush, far from it, but how ever you feel about the war in Iraq, you can't deny it may have been a small seed that may have started the growth of democracy. BTW, I was apposed to the war and agree the Tunisian revolt was the major factor.

96 Kragar  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:15:50am
97 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:16:02am

re: #91 ozbloke

I'm in the South Pacific, I can look after it.

See "Cryptonomicon"

98 Alexzander  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:16:29am

re: #92 SanFranciscoZionist

They serve alcohol at the Starbucks in Heliopolis?

Its probably just being occupied since most businesses are shut down right now.

99 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:16:29am

re: #96 kragar (proud to be kafir)

Mitt Romney upstaged by fake Sarah Palin

That's just plain weird.

100 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:16:32am

re: #95 avanti

I'm not a fan of Bush, far from it, but how ever you feel about the war in Iraq, you can't deny it may have been a small seed that may have started the growth of democracy. BTW, I was apposed to the war and agree the Tunisian revolt was the major factor.

History will show us.

For now, I'm going to focus good thoughts towards the Egyptians. It is their day.

101 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:18:48am

The whole Sistah Sarah phenom is beyond bizarre.

It is a sign of the state of the Party that people would ignore one of the few candidates that might have a chance in 2012 to see a "celebrity".

102 HappyWarrior  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:18:51am

It's an amazing story really. Kinda reminds me of learning about the people of Eastern and Central Europe who had enough of Communist dictatorships and took to the streets. As I told my Mom, can you imagine if we had the social networking today in the 80's?

103 Yashmak  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:18:58am

I think it's a bit early to make such declarations either way. Just because the spark that lit the fire had little to do with an Islamic uprising, doesn't mean those folks in Egypt with that agenda won't gain power. It doesn't necessarily mean they WILL gain much power either.

Personally, I suspect the more our government tries to butt-in on this, and state what Egypt should or should not do, the more sympathy the anti-American crowd there will garner.

104 Stanghazi  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:19:07am
105 Kragar  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:19:08am

re: #99 SanFranciscoZionist

That's just plain weird.

Oh, I wouldn't put it past someone to have arranged this.

106 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:19:26am

re: #96 kragar (proud to be kafir)

Mitt Romney upstaged by fake Sarah Palin

Ugh. Mitt Romney has completed his transformation to a Tea Party candidate.

107 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:19:36am

re: #96 kragar (proud to be kafir)

Mitt Romney upstaged by fake Sarah Palin

I ran into Palin on my way to Paris... at Bush International Airport in Houston... took a snap of her...

Image: 100_0006_palin.JPG

108 RadicalModerate  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:20:15am

re: #82 Jadespring

Ha ha

Sandmonkey Sandmonkey
If u r in heliopolis come and join us in korba. At starbucks. Alcohol for everyone. #jan25

This statement underlines one of the reasons why Egypt will NOT be an Islamic state - Egypt is one of the Middle East's most liberal countries in the region regarding alcohol consumption - including the ability to purchase during Ramadan in tourist areas. The citizenry of Egypt simply does not fit the fundamentalist mold that most on the American right would like to lump them into.

109 Stanghazi  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:20:28am

Mubarak picked an auspicious date to resign. On this day 32 years ago the Iranian revolution took place when the Shah's forces were overwhelmed. And 21 years ago today Nelson Mandela was freed by the apartheid regime in South Africa.

110 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:20:37am

re: #107 Walter L. Newton

I ran into Palin on my way to Paris... at Bush International Airport in Houston... took a snap of her...

Oops... wrong pic... here's the good one...

Image: 100_0006_palin.JPG

111 HappyWarrior  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:20:48am

The Palin lookalike thing is weird. I really don't see Romney winning the GOP nomination. It's not just that he's a Mormon, it's that his opponents will have a field day with his past.

112 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:21:27am

re: #110 Walter L. Newton

Oops... wrong pic... here's the good one...

Image: 100_0006_palin.JPG

Never mind... I keep making a mistake with the URL... forget it.

113 Ericus58  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:23:05am

#1815: Wael Ghonim, the Google executive who has had a prominent role in the protests, tweets: "A call to all well-educated Egyptians around the world. Come back ASAP to build our nation."

114 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:23:38am

re: #112 Walter L. Newton

Never mind... I keep making a mistake with the URL... forget it.

Actually, her back is her best feature. Seeing it means she isn't coming your way.

115 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:24:02am

re: #45 _RememberTonyC

He probably won't be mentioned in the media today, but I say George W. Bush should be feeling pretty good today. If he never helped get rid of saddam, Iraq would not have had a chance to "test drive" democracy in the heart of the arab world.

I'm sorry, how is this connected?

Bush was supposedly pretty tough on Mubarak for his treatment of his people, so his moral compass was aligned well.

In what way?

He misplayed gaza, but his heart was in the right place. But setting in motion the idea of democracy in the arab world was a first step. The revolutions in Egypt and Tunisia were a second. And hopefully the people of Iran will have their day in the near future.

The idea of Democracy already existed in the Middle East. We overthrew a democratically-elected government in Iran, remember?

116 gehazi  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:24:02am

re: #19 ggt

Has what we have watched unfold in Eqypt in the last three weeks happened before in history?

Along with what others have mentioned, People Power, which is probably the best case scenario for Egypt.

117 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:25:14am

re: #110 Walter L. Newton

Oops... wrong pic... here's the good one...

Image: 100_0006_palin.JPG

Ok... here she is...

Image: 100_0007_palin_2.JPG

118 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:25:58am

re: #117 Walter L. Newton

I wanna see her topless craigslist photo...

119 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:26:16am

re: #118 ralphieboy

I wanna see her topless craigslist photo...

ewwwwwwwwwww!

120 Jadespring  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:26:58am

Military talking on State Tv.

121 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:27:05am

re: #115 Obdicut

The idea of Democracy already existed in the Middle East. We overthrew a democratically-elected government in Iran, remember?

Sadly, most of us don't and most are still convinced that Iran hates us because they "hate our freedoms".

122 Ericus58  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:29:45am

"#1825: President of the Islamic Republic of Iran Mahmoud Ahmadinejad tweets: "Youth of Iran! Anybody who promises not to protest will receive 1900 Microsoft Points.""

hahahahahaha

123 zora  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:29:58am

[Link: andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com...]

Reason Goes To CPAC

124 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:30:03am

glad to see Mubarak saw the writing on the wall.

125 Jadespring  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:30:15am

Great day, great people. Blah blah.
Studying way forward with the help of god.
Be assured it is with the people.

Says some polite things and appreciation about Mubarak.

Appreciation for life of the Martyrs. (Salutes them)

God be our help and peace be upon you.

126 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:30:36am

oh, OT but really digging Divinity II: Ego Draconis. Anyone play it?

127 RadicalModerate  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:30:50am

Egypt military speaking on State TV.

Military council is in control of day-to-day operations.
Also, general elections' timing likely to be moved up from September, they are currently working on how quickly they can be held.

128 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:31:27am

re: #127 RadicalModerate

Egypt military speaking on State TV.

Military council is in control of day-to-day operations.
Also, general elections' timing likely to be moved up from September, they are currently working on how quickly they can be held.

El Baradei is a candidate, I suppose?

129 Stanghazi  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:31:54am

SultanAlQassemi Sultan Al Qassemi
"Tantawi has spoken with US Defense Secretary Gates by phone five times since the crisis began, including as late as on Thursday evening"

130 jordash1212  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:32:22am

re: #128 ggt

That poll puts him at 4% support in a presidential straw vote.

131 Kragar  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:32:30am

re: #126 Dreggas

oh, OT but really digging Divinity II: Ego Draconis. Anyone play it?

Holding out for the Fallout: New Vegas DLC update and the Dawn of War 2: Retribution expansion.

132 Alexzander  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:33:10am

re: #109 Stanley Sea

Mubarak picked an auspicious date to resign. On this day 32 years ago the Iranian revolution took place when the Shah's forces were overwhelmed. And 21 years ago today Nelson Mandela was freed by the apartheid regime in South Africa.

Yeah I saw that on twitter too.

133 Jadespring  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:33:50am

re: #131 kragar (proud to be kafir)

Holding out for the Fallout: New Vegas DLC update and the Dawn of War 2: Retribution expansion.

I'm waiting for Dragon Age 2.

Woo!

134 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:33:57am

re: #113 Ericus58

I don't see that happening, at least not anytime soon. I saw too many Iranians stay over here after that revolution went South. According to one of my coworkers, and his parents, two of those that stayed here, there are some disturbing parallels. I only hope they are mistaken and that groups like the IB are not able to co-opt this chaos.

Nice to see a reviled leader driven out however. I wonder what Israel's response will be? They can't be too happy about the freed Hamas leaders popping up in Gaza just hours after they broke out of prison.

135 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:34:02am

re: #132 Alexzander

Yeah I saw that on twitter too.

2/11 is a good day?

136 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:34:43am

re: #115 Obdicut

I'm sorry, how is this connected?

In what way?

The idea of Democracy already existed in the Middle East. We overthrew a democratically-elected government in Iran, remember?

Also, this.

Image: handshake300.jpg

137 Jadespring  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:36:28am

Another ha ha. :D

Jan25voices Jan25 Voices
by ClassicBookworm
AJE: journalist and cameraman ditched by their taxi driver who went to dance in street. Cameraman drove taxi to Tahrir. #Jan25 #Egypt

138 Alexzander  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:36:28am

re: #117 Walter L. Newton

Ok... here she is...

Image: 100_0007_palin_2.JPG

Argh you need to resize these....

139 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:37:23am

re: #135 ggt

2/11 is a good day?

Well it is Friday, and it's kind of hard to go wrong on a Friday. (There have been some notable exceptions to that though.)

140 Ericus58  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:37:43am

re: #134 CyanSnowHawk

I don't see that happening, at least not anytime soon. I saw too many Iranians stay over here after that revolution went South. According to one of my coworkers, and his parents, two of those that stayed here, there are some disturbing parallels. I only hope they are mistaken and that groups like the IB are not able to co-opt this chaos.

Nice to see a reviled leader driven out however. I wonder what Israel's response will be? They can't be too happy about the freed Hamas leaders popping up in Gaza just hours after they broke out of prison.

I think that there will be incentive of those Egyptians who have left their country in search of employment opportunities that exist in Egypt. There is a difference to how this government change is taking place ini regards to Iran's.

Stabilizing the economy and getting real job growth for it's educated citizens will be a top priority.

141 tomg51spence  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:38:29am

One statement out of Israel:

Israel voices hopes for peace after Mubarak quits

Published: 02.11.11, 19:08 / Israel News

Israel hopes the resignation on Friday of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak will bring no change to its peaceful relations with Cairo, a senior Israeli official said.

"It's too early to foresee how (the resignation) will affect things," the official said. "We hope that the change to democracy in Egypt will happen without violence and that the peace accord will remain." (Reuters)

142 haakondahl  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:38:45am

I have been following this, staying up late with Twitter (@afghanmoon). Seriously, that is an awesome way to make contacts all over.

I blogged thus: [Link: haakondahl.com...]

When I was in Afghanistan, the Iranian election/revolution of 2009 (June 15, 2009, IIRC) took place, and I followed it on my new-but-used Nokia N95, which was a GSM brick, but I loved it. It was my link to the outside world. Through LGF I discovered Twitter as Winston80 (I think he's Winston06 here, not sure) transtweeted from Farsi to English from the sources he found he trusted. Reine, I think, was also keeping up a similar commentary.

I spent several nights standing out in the gravel by the wall of our camp to catch a signal and stay up with the exciting developments in Iran, right next door. I was getting news hours and days ahead of CNN & company, which did a not-too-bad job of adapting to Twitter once they decided they were going to have to.

The Mullahs killed a bunch of folks, terorized an uncountable number, and that revolution was smothered. For now.

I had recently read that Kareem AMer had been freed from prison, which I am afraid the FREE KAREEM banner on my old blog did nothing to hasten, nor my posts about spending $2B/yr to imprison a blogger. I am pretty sure I swiped those memes straight from Charles Johnson, although I can't be sure. Then I came across the Facebook group and this blog post by Sandmonkey concerning Khaled Said, just as Tunisia wrapped up.

So Egypt starts to heat up, and I feel as if I have arrived t a vantage point just in time to watch something awesome.

I have been intrigued along the way to see the splits within groups into pro-protester and pro-status quo camps. It seems there's hardly a site online which is not heavily vested in one side or the other which is not split on what the desired result should be, much less method.

I have spelled out most of my rationale for supporting the protesters on my blog, linked above, so I won;t spam you with it here, other than to say that I take the Declaration of Independence seriously. I also believe that "Freedom is wasted on him who will not make others free."

So I caught up with Sandmonkey on Twitter, met a bunch of new tweeple, argued with some (most interestingly in Afghanistan, more on that later), and am now unbelievably happy to report that we won!

Well, I would go on, but I'm falling asleep. Yay! We won.

143 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:38:49am

re: #83 kragar (proud to be kafir)

300 Elven Archers and they couldn't down one naked ork with a sparkler.

I hear the Olympics theme used by ABC whenever I see that scene. It looks like something out of the opening ceremonies other than it being amidst a bunch of orcs and elves killing each other...
/

144 efuseakay  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:41:10am

re: #89 ggt

re: #73 ozbloke

women voting,

no more: torture chambers, children in prison,

no new mass graves of Iraq's.

Saddamn's sons are no longer treating the country as their own ghoulish Disney Land.

Sharia law, suicide bombings, kidnappings, corruption, Americans in harms way. Success!

145 Stanghazi  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:42:48am

re: #144 efuseakay

Sharia law, suicide bombings, kidnappings, corruption, Americans in harms way. Success!

Pallets of dollars gone POOF! Contractors making bank. Bremer.

What a downer to bring some sort of comparison to Iraq.

146 Jadespring  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:42:55am

Blech... I just ate a fly.

147 RadicalModerate  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:43:04am

There's one thing that concerns me in listening to the "on the street" interviews that CNN and other American media are conducting with the currently-jubilant protestors. Their biggest hope of the interviewees is that the revolution will end the rampant corruption that they have been victimized by. I hope that they realize that they will need to be very patient in this matter, because reforms will not be immediate, as evidenced by other nations (example: Russia).

148 Gus  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:43:20am

re: #99 SanFranciscoZionist

That's just plain weird.

Weird and sad. That's what's become of the conservative movement: sad. They need another Buckley but there's no one in sight.

149 Kragar  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:43:31am

re: #146 Jadespring

Blech... I just ate a fly.

Thats what she said!

150 Stanghazi  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:44:17am

AliDahmash Under My Olive Tree
Amazing feeling at the celebration in Amman #Jan25 #Jordan [Link: yfrog.com...] [Link: yfrog.com...] [Link: yfrog.com...]

151 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:44:41am

re: #131 kragar (proud to be kafir)

I didn't like how they did DOW 2, it was ok but I preferred the massive army single player campaign. I am holding out for the new Witcher game as well as Rift.

re: #133 Jadespring

I liked Dragon Age a lot but not sure if I am going to pull the trigger on part 2. I got burned out on the original + expansion and haven't kept up with the new content etc.

152 Alexzander  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:44:43am

re: #148 Gus 802

Weird and sad. That's what's become of the conservative movement: sad. They need another Buckley but there's no one in sight.

It wouldn't be welcome today. Too elitist. Too many big words. Not enough bear skins.

153 Decatur Deb  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:45:04am

re: #146 Jadespring

Blech... I just ate a fly.

Swallow a spider to catch the fly...

154 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:45:38am

re: #152 Alexzander

It wouldn't be welcome today. Too elitist. Too many big words. Not enough bear caribou skins.

ftfy

155 Ericus58  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:45:50am

re: #142 haakondahl

I look forward to more posts from you!

156 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:45:52am

re: #146 Jadespring

Blech... I just ate a fly.

Order the spider goulash...

157 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:45:55am

re: #48 ralphieboy

Regardless, the Right Wing talking points are going to be that Obama "lost" Egypt and that the theocrats are going to take over and make it into Iran on the Nile.

You forgot - Obama "lost" Egypt, and Bush is responsible for the democratic revolution in Egypt.

158 gehazi  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:46:08am

re: #144 efuseakay

I think it's equally inaccurate to pretend that nothing good has ultimately come of the toppling as Saddam as it is to pretend that nothing bad has come. We may have gone in there for crappy reasons, but that doesn't mean that the end result can't have some good to it, possibly even *gasp* more good than bad.

And I'm no proponent (then or now) of the Iraqi invasion.

159 Gus  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:46:15am

re: #152 Alexzander

It wouldn't be welcome today. Too elitist. Too many big words. Not enough bear skins.

Yeah. I couldn't imagine today's wingnuts accepting of Buckley's "accent" and his other quirks of the tongue.

160 haakondahl  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:46:46am

re: #69 avanti

She's also quite honest.

161 gehazi  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:47:23am

re: #158 gehazi

the toppling *of* Saddam. Blech.

162 garhighway  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:47:40am

re: #45 _RememberTonyC

He probably won't be mentioned in the media today, but I say George W. Bush should be feeling pretty good today. If he never helped get rid of saddam, Iraq would not have had a chance to "test drive" democracy in the heart of the arab world. Bush was supposedly pretty tough on Mubarak for his treatment of his people, so his moral compass was aligned well. He misplayed gaza, but his heart was in the right place. But setting in motion the idea of democracy in the arab world was a first step. The revolutions in Egypt and Tunisia were a second. And hopefully the people of Iran will have their day in the near future.

I would respectfully and vehemently disagree. From what I can tell, the widely-held view of Gulf War II in the ME (ex Israel) is negative. It is viewed as a western, Christian nation infringing on the sovereignty of an Arab nation, and in the process getting a big pile of Arabs killed (and 1/6 of Iraq's population displaced).

They would have much rather had the chance to do this themselves as they are now doing in Egypt and Tunisia. They give us zero credit for doing what we did, and they see through the transparently false reasons we gave for our intervention.

No honest accounting of that war will make W look good.

163 HappyWarrior  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:47:50am

It just seems to me the modern American right seems to disdain rather than embrace intellectualism. Like I know for a fact that Palin likes to mock Obama for being a Harvard trained constitutional law professor by training.

164 Gus  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:48:06am

Why he them there has a funny accent. What's that guys name again Bucklee or sumtin? What's he British? We don't need no galdarn Europeein tellin' us wut to do in are country even if he is a conservationist.

//

165 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:48:10am

re: #140 Ericus58

I think that there will be incentive of those Egyptians who have left their country in search of employment opportunities that exist in Egypt. There is a difference to how this government change is taking place ini regards to Iran's.

Stabilizing the economy and getting real job growth for it's educated citizens will be a top priority.

I certainly am not up on the details of Iran's changeover, but second hand reports from my coworker still make me nervous. News was not very up-to-minute when that one happened and frankly I was more interested in looking up the skirts of the cheerleaders that sat opposite me in my high school classes than in following the news then. (Thank you Mr. Dupuis for arranging the seats in a semi-circle.)

I did wonder this morning though, could the military have orchestrated Mubarek's speech yesterday to make it appear that they stepped in to give the protesters what they wanted this morning? When I'm looking at the Generals walking through the crowds and shaking hands with the protesters in relative safety it does cause me to wonder if that is what they did.

166 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:49:21am

re: #158 gehazi

It may be more good than bad. I hope it is. But that sort of calculus is wildly difficult to perform. Sharia law is written into the Constitution of Iraq. That does not sit at all well with me, in the least. It may be that the country moves towards secularization; I don't see any particular reason to believe that it will.

167 dragonfire1981  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:49:37am

[Glenn Beck]

The Washington Institute for Near East Policy is a Liberal leaning George Soros funding mouthpiece for the Obama administration and other like minded radicals. Of course they're going to say the Egypt uprising is NOT about Islam! They don't like it when we pay too close attention to what they're up to, so they try and say "oh, no it's just the economy. This has nothing to do with religion, it's just about jobs." So let me get this straight: A massive uprising in one of the most important and critical countries in the Arab world has NOTHING do with religion?? *mock laughter* Next you're going to tell me that Barack Obama is undoubtedly 100% Christian or that Van Jones is just a normal guy with some rather creative ideas.

They are brainwashing you America! And what's worse, the people who are supposed to be protecting it are simply standing by and watching! Unless real patriots, people like you and me start standing up to this...*cue fake crying*...there may not be much of an America left for our children and grandchildren. The America the founders wanted...gone. And in it's place: A liberal, near communist police state run by a bunch of leftist radicals who still think they are doing what's best for this country. If we don't act now...who will?

[/Glenn Beck]

Should I be scared that if I posted this on a right wing blog minus the Beck tags they'd easily buy it hook, line and sinker?

168 Stanghazi  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:49:47am

Sandmonkey Sandmonkey
We just handed out beer to everyone in the street. Revolution korba is toasting mubarak's departure :) #jan25

169 Gus  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:50:54am

re: #167 dragonfire1981

It's funny but they really do keep bringing up Van Jones.

170 Ericus58  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:51:17am

re: #168 Stanley Sea

Sandmonkey Sandmonkey
We just handed out beer to everyone in the street. Revolution korba is toasting mubarak's departure :) #jan25

IPA?! Pilsner?! Stout?! Wheat?!

171 efuseakay  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:51:32am

re: #145 Stanley Sea

Pallets of dollars gone POOF! Contractors making bank. Bremer.

What a downer to bring some sort of comparison to Iraq.

No shit.

172 AntonSirius  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:52:00am

re: #70 Buck

The BBC's Persian TV service is being jammed from within Iran due to its coverage of the unrest in Egypt.

It appears that the trigger point was a joint broadcast on Wednesday by the corporation's Persian and Arabic services in which Iranian and Egyptian callers exchanged views.

Many Iranian viewers said during the interactive programme that they were watching events unfold in Cairo extremely closely.

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

Mousavi, Karroubi and other opposition leaders in Iran were trying to organize a demonstration Monday in support of the Egyptian protesters. It could be the next domino to wobble.

173 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:52:35am

re: #146 Jadespring

Blech... I just ate a fly.

I hope you don't die.

174 Jadespring  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:53:01am

re: #165 CyanSnowHawk


I did wonder this morning though, could the military have orchestrated Mubarek's speech yesterday to make it appear that they stepped in to give the protesters what they wanted this morning? When I'm looking at the Generals walking through the crowds and shaking hands with the protesters in relative safety it does cause me to wonder if that is what they did.

I don't think so. The military for the most part has been in with the people all along in terms of being 'safe'. Last week one of heads went into the crowd with no problems.

That's not to say that they aren't doing and strategizing behind the scenes. I think a more likely scenario and there's been some reports in this direction was that Mubarak speech last night was not what the miltary excepted and afterwards they basically said 'enough.'

175 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:53:25am

re: #166 Obdicut

It may be more good than bad. I hope it is. But that sort of calculus is wildly difficult to perform. Sharia law is written into the Constitution of Iraq. That does not sit at all well with me, in the least. It may be that the country moves towards secularization; I don't see any particular reason to believe that it will.

The people of Iraq are no longer living under a brutal dictator. They are free to vote the laws and leaders they want.

If we want to promote democracy, we have to accept what people choose even if we don't like it.

I prefer to trust the people than a group of *others* who would play with governments as they would play chess.

176 gehazi  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:53:37am

re: #166 Obdicut

It may be more good than bad. I hope it is. But that sort of calculus is wildly difficult to perform. Sharia law is written into the Constitution of Iraq. That does not sit at all well with me, in the least. It may be that the country moves towards secularization; I don't see any particular reason to believe that it will.

Well yeah, who knows where it'll end up. But I'd say the way it is now, Iraq is at least not the playground of a butcher (and all the Kurds say Hurrah!). If it ends up being more like a regular ME country, rife with religious extremism and anti-American sentiment, that's something isn't it?

Now even if you think that is a net improvement, you can certainly take issue with how much an improvement, compared to the staggeringly high cost.

177 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:53:38am

re: #165 CyanSnowHawk


I did wonder this morning though, could the military have orchestrated Mubarek's speech yesterday to make it appear that they stepped in to give the protesters what they wanted this morning? When I'm looking at the Generals walking through the crowds and shaking hands with the protesters in relative safety it does cause me to wonder if that is what they did.

It's more than likely, it's not the first time the military has taken over, now to see what they do.

178 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:53:40am

re: #147 RadicalModerate

Once again, the Onion nails it with a headline:

[Link: www.theonion.com...]

179 Alexzander  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:53:57am

re: #172 AntonSirius

Mousavi, Karroubi and other opposition leaders in Iran were trying to organize a demonstration Monday in support of the Egyptian protesters. It could be the next domino to wobble.

Anonymous hopes to give it a boost with an online assault that starts in an hour or two:
Updates on OpIran

180 wrenchwench  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:54:34am

re: #168 Stanley Sea

Sandmonkey Sandmonkey
We just handed out beer to everyone in the street. Revolution korba is toasting mubarak's departure :) #jan25

Maybe that will reassure the wingers that it's not an Islamist takeover.

Nah.

181 gehazi  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:54:59am

re: #175 ggt


If we want to promote democracy, we have to accept what people choose even if we don't like it.

This deserves to be repeated.

182 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:55:30am

re: #158 gehazi

I think it's equally inaccurate to pretend that nothing good has ultimately come of the toppling as Saddam as it is to pretend that nothing bad has come. We may have gone in there for crappy reasons, but that doesn't mean that the end result can't have some good to it, possibly even *gasp* more good than bad.

And I'm no proponent (then or now) of the Iraqi invasion.

I agree that some good has come out. I just do not see how it has anything but the most miniscule bearing on Tunisia or Egypt. I cannot imagine those people saying, "Gosh, wouldn't it be great if we could be more like Iraq?"

183 Jadespring  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:56:38am

Sometimes it's just about the simple stuff.

mosaaberizing Mosa'ab Elshamy
Mubarak's regime prevented my dad from attending his eldest son wedding coz he's an activist. Just called me, said he'll be in Egypt soon :)

184 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:56:59am

re: #174 Jadespring

I don't think so. The military for the most part has been in with the people all along in terms of being 'safe'. Last week one of heads went into the crowd with no problems.

That's not to say that they aren't doing and strategizing behind the scenes. I think a more likely scenario and there's been some reports in this direction was that Mubarak speech last night was not what the miltary excepted and afterwards they basically said 'enough.'

Probably the most likely scenario.

185 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:57:08am

re: #182 ralphieboy

I agree that some good has come out. I just do not see how it has anything but the most miniscule bearing on Tunisia or Egypt. I cannot imagine those people saying, "Gosh, wouldn't it be great if we could be more like Iraq?"

I think it's more the concept that Iraq is free to choose Sharia Law, they weren't dictated to from outside forces.

Again, we won't know for decades probably.

186 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:57:16am

re: #165 CyanSnowHawk


I did wonder this morning though, could the military have orchestrated Mubarek's speech yesterday to make it appear that they stepped in to give the protesters what they wanted this morning? When I'm looking at the Generals walking through the crowds and shaking hands with the protesters in relative safety it does cause me to wonder if that is what they did.

The military is primarily comprised of ordinary citizens. It is not some para-military that is the extension of a dictatorial strong-man - that was the Egyptian secret police. The military has had populist support for quite a while in Egypt. From what I've heard, there is not a large split between the military and the general citizenry. Even if the military did have a hand in orchestrating events in the way you suggest (which I think is a huge stretch, I think that Mubarak's speech yesterday was the desperate last attempt by a brutal and corrupt dictator to hold onto power), their interest seems to be a benign one, not a malignant one.

187 Jadespring  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:58:08am

re: #178 ralphieboy

Once again, the Onion nails it with a headline:

[Link: www.theonion.com...]

LOL

188 gehazi  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:58:31am

re: #182 ralphieboy

That's certainly true. Not sure why it was brought up in the first place, just commenting on it after it was.

Good example of that is a tweet from Amoona:

Dear George W. Bush, this is how the Middle East gets freedom, no invasions neccessary. Sincerely, F*** YOU via @seifito #Jan25 - #Feb11
189 Gus  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:58:41am

re: #180 wrenchwench

Maybe that will reassure the wingers that it's not an Islamist takeover.

Nah.

The response will see won't be unlike we've seen their response towards the economy. That is, they don't want the economy to recover. Or to sum it up in a paraphrased quote rewritten for this occasion as would be worded by Rush Limbaugh: I want the Egyptian protesters to fail.

190 recusancy  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:58:58am

re: #185 ggt

I think it's more the concept that Iraq is free to choose Sharia Law, they weren't dictated to from outside forces.

Again, we won't know for decades probably.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha... no wait... hahahahaha!

191 S'latch  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 10:59:06am

I hope this poll is accurate. It is good news if it is true.

192 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:00:00am

gotta go,

have a fun afternoon all!

Remaining positive until proven otherwise.

193 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:00:23am

re: #183 Jadespring

Sometimes it's just about the simple stuff.

mosaaberizing Mosa'ab Elshamy
Mubarak's regime prevented my dad from attending his eldest son wedding coz he's an activist. Just called me, said he'll be in Egypt soon :)

If the military lifts emergency rule - which allowed for the detention of anyone, for any reason, without recourse to any legal proceedings - that in itself is a huge achievement.

194 Jadespring  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:01:45am

Oh now this is a biggy....

moftasa Mostafa Hussein
Egyptian state TV is broadcasting Aljazeera instead of its usual programming. #egypt #jan25

195 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:01:50am

re: #190 recusancy

Hahahahahahahahahahaha... no wait... hahahahaha!

Really, recusancy,

If the previous administration were the embodiment of American Evil, do you really think Iraq would have incorporated Sharia into their law?

Iraq is a major debacle, yet the people ARE FREE TO CHOOSE.

We can't have our cake and eat it too.

196 Ericus58  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:02:22am

re: #188 gehazi

That's certainly true. Not sure why it was brought up in the first place, just commenting on it after it was.

Good example of that is a tweet from Amoona:

I'm sorry but what has taken place in Egypt was not possible in Iraq. Not in Hussein's lifetime, and maybe not even in his son's.

The Iraq military and security apparatus were very different and much more brutal than in Egypt.

197 Gus  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:02:39am

The sound of crickets can be heard in Greater Wingnuttia:

Obama Calls For End Of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac

NEW YORK -- The Obama administration plans to wind down bailed-out Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac over the next five to seven years, Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner said Friday...

198 Jadespring  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:02:48am

re: #194 Jadespring

Should add....if true... and not some more humor. :)

199 justaminute  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:03:01am

re: #172 AntonSirius

Mousavi, Karroubi and other opposition leaders in Iran were trying to organize a demonstration Monday in support of the Egyptian protesters. It could be the next domino to wobble.

Karroubi has been placed under house arrest. I thought he was in jail but the Iranian blogs state house arrest and even family members are not allowed to go in to see him. No word from Mousavi at the moment. The government is keeping everything locked down at the moment. Today they are supposed to be celebrating the birth of the Islamic revolution. I love that the Egyptian revolution has co-opted this date. It gives the current Iranian government a black eye.

200 Gus  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:03:17am

Obama Calls For End Of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac. Stop. Obama Calls For End Of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac. Stop.

End transmission.

201 Stanghazi  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:03:17am

grahamlampa Graham Lampa
by habibh
@habibh: "Social media has lowered the cost of revolution." #techatstate

202 wrenchwench  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:04:35am

re: #197 Gus 802

The sound of crickets can be heard in Greater Wingnuttia:

Obama Calls For End Of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac

I considered listening to Rush to see how he'd spin that.

Again: Nah.

203 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:04:56am

re: #195 ggt

Really, recusancy,

If the previous administration were the embodiment of American Evil, do you really think Iraq would have incorporated Sharia into their law?

Iraq is a major debacle, yet the people ARE FREE TO CHOOSE.

We can't have our cake and eat it too.

Real patriotic Iraqi would have done exactly what we wanted them to, and enjoyed it!
//

204 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:05:33am

re: #197 Gus 802

The sound of crickets can be heard in Greater Wingnuttia:

Obama Calls For End Of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac

Obama is shutting down the banks!
/New wingnut talking point

205 recusancy  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:05:45am

re: #195 ggt

Really, recusancy,

If the previous administration were the embodiment of American Evil, do you really think Iraq would have incorporated Sharia into their law?

Iraq is a major debacle, yet the people ARE FREE TO CHOOSE.

We can't have our cake and eat it too.

I was laughing at the tone deafness of the "no outside forces" thing.

206 Gus  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:05:55am

re: #202 wrenchwench

I considered listening to Rush to see how he'd spin that.

Again: Nah.

You lie! It's a trap! They're up to something!

/

207 wrenchwench  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:06:05am

re: #202 wrenchwench

I considered listening to Rush to see how he'd spin that.

Again: Nah.

Texas Tornados won out.

208 garhighway  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:06:09am

Also on economics issues, today's Krugman:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

209 Gus  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:06:19am

re: #204 Killgore Trout

Obama is shutting down the banks!
/New wingnut talking point

Reagan wouldn't have done it this way!

/

210 Gus  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:07:49am

Obama Calls For End Of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and to replace it with Sharia financing and a Calaphite! - Glenn Beck

211 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:07:54am

John Birch society at CPAC declares god will nuke the gays from orbit....
(skip to 4:40)

Frum reports....


Overheard at John Birch Society Booth: “Nancy Reagan was a homosexualist.”
212 Gus  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:08:23am

re: #211 Killgore Trout

John Birch society at CPAC declares god will nuke the gays from orbit...
(skip to 4:40)

[Video]Frum reports...

Oh brother.

Face palm!

213 HappyWarrior  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:09:17am

re: #211 Killgore Trout

John Birch society at CPAC declares god will nuke the gays from orbit...
(skip to 4:40)

[Video]Frum reports...

What in the hell is a homosexualist? And it's nice to see the JBS hasn't changed a bit. Thanks Glenn, I am sure every rational conservative out there is just thrilled that you brought these nuts back in to the tent.

214 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:09:24am

re: #196 Ericus58

I'm sorry but what has taken place in Egypt was not possible in Iraq. Not in Hussein's lifetime, and maybe not even in his son's.

The Iraq military and security apparatus were very different and much more brutal than in Egypt.

No doubt - but are you fully aware of just how brutal the Egyptian "security apparatus" has been under a state of emergency rule? People were routinely arrested and subjected to torture without any explanation, justification, or access to legal recourse. The events that have taken place were absolutely unthinkable in the very recent past.

215 Jack Burton  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:09:28am

re: #211 Killgore Trout

John Birch society at CPAC declares god will nuke the gays from orbit...
(skip to 4:40)
.

JBS Member: "It's the only way to be sure."

216 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:10:34am

re: #197 Gus 802

The sound of crickets can be heard in Greater Wingnuttia:

Obama Calls For End Of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac

I think they were distracted by an Egypt impostor walking into the conference.

217 efuseakay  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:11:51am

re: #185 ggt

I think it's more the concept that Iraq is free to choose Sharia Law, they weren't dictated to from outside forces.

Again, we won't know for decades probably.

Yeah that invasion of Americans and Brits came from within!

218 Stanghazi  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:11:53am

>

AliDahmash Under My Olive Tree
Goose bumps @ the Egyptian Embassy in Jordan #Jan25 [Link: yfrog.com...] [Link: yfrog.com...] [Link: yfrog.com...]

219 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:12:00am

re: #215 ArchangelMichael

JBS Member: "It's the only way to be sure."

Sort of creepy how using that quote sort of equates homosexuality to the aliens in _Aliens_. Sure you want to go there, even as a joke?

220 Stanghazi  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:12:54am

monasosh monasosh
We just scratched out "Mubarak" name from metro-stations map & replaced it wt " the martyrs" #Jan25 [Link: yfrog.com...]

221 wrenchwench  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:12:55am

re: #214 Talking Point Detective

No doubt - but are you fully aware of just how brutal the Egyptian "security apparatus" has been under a state of emergency rule? People were routinely arrested and subjected to torture without any explanation, justification, or access to legal recourse. The events that have taken place were absolutely unthinkable in the very recent past.

Are you saying it was worse in Egypt than it was in Iraq?

I don't know which was worse, but I'd sure hesitate to say one was not as bad as the other.

222 Stanghazi  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:14:23am

evanchill Evan Hill
by ioerror
I helped a dad with a kid get through the suffocating crowd in Tahrir to a tank, where he handed his toddler to an army officer for a pic.

223 Jack Burton  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:14:32am

re: #219 oaktree

Sort of creepy how using that quote sort of equates homosexuality to the aliens in _Aliens_. Sure you want to go there, even as a joke?

The joke, such that it is, is that *they* are going there. I figured the "JBS Member: " tag at the beginning of that was an implication it was not my opinion.

224 leftynyc  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:18:08am

re: #112 Walter L. Newton

Never mind... I keep making a mistake with the URL... forget it.

Personally, I'd prefer seeing pictures of Paris anyway.

225 lawhawk  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:18:19am

re: #202 wrenchwench

Test for echo....

Oh wait. Wrong Rush.

226 justaminute  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:18:46am

It will be interesting to see the stories of the Egyptian people. If they are truly free, stories of oppression by the Egyptian government will become available in the weeks to come. I wonder what the Egyptian police are doing now because from what I've read they were the most oppressive.

227 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:19:52am

re: #224 leftynyc

Personally, I'd prefer seeing pictures of Paris anyway.

Well here you go then.

Not really sure why you want it though.

228 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:20:06am

re: #219 oaktree

Sort of creepy how using that quote sort of equates homosexuality to the aliens in _Aliens_. Sure you want to go there, even as a joke?

I think it's a fair characterization of the JBS statement. They hope god is going to kill the homosexuals and they're quite open about their desire for divine intervention.

229 Gus  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:20:51am

@SenJohnMcCain John McCain

I applaud President Mubarak’s decision to step down - this should be the beginning, not the end, of Egypt's transition to democracy.

I'm still disappointed with his behavior and rhetoric during the DADT hearings.

230 blueraven  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:20:55am

re: #226 justaminute

It will be interesting to see the stories of the Egyptian people. If they are truly free, stories of oppression by the Egyptian government will become available in the weeks to come. I wonder what the Egyptian police are doing now because from what I've read they were the most oppressive.

Flee to Iran? Join the Basij...

231 Jadespring  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:21:04am

Looks like crap may be going down in Yemen while everyone eyes are elsewhere.

Lots of tweets like this...

TWEEPS: The wave of freedom has hit Yemen. Police forces have OPENED LIVE FIRE on demonstrators according to @AhlamS.

232 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:21:54am

re: #221 wrenchwench

Are you saying it was worse in Egypt than it was in Iraq?

I don't know which was worse, but I'd sure hesitate to say one was not as bad as the other.

No - I specifically said that there was a distinction, but that is a weak defense for the invasion of Iraq as we supported Egypt and other brutal autocracies - making is blatantly hypocritical and exposing the lie behind the "we invaded for the sake of the Iraqis" argument.

233 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:22:57am

re: #219 oaktree

Sort of creepy how using that quote sort of equates homosexuality to the aliens in _Aliens_. Sure you want to go there, even as a joke?

Trying to come up with something about 'something gay' bursting out of the chest of a JBS member, but it's not working. This joke stuff is difficult.

234 wrenchwench  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:23:29am

re: #232 Talking Point Detective

No - I specifically said that there was a distinction, but that is a weak defense for the invasion of Iraq as we supported Egypt and other brutal autocracies - making is blatantly hypocritical and exposing the lie behind the "we invaded for the sake of the Iraqis" argument.

I think we invaded because Saddam tried to kill GW's daddy, but I was supporting the notion that some good certainly came out of it.

235 avanti  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:24:27am

Wow, Fox is spinning this so hard to be bad news, I fear they'll bore a hole in the ground. Most of the spin is how we let down our friends the Saudi's for example. CNN is still in the thick of the celebration, while Fox is pissing on the parade with the talking heads. BTW, even Megan Fox is trying to temper the gloom and doom talk from the talking heads on the far right, that's how bad it is.

236 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:25:41am

re: #233 CyanSnowHawk

Trying to come up with something about 'something gay' bursting out of the chest of a JBS member, but it's not working. This joke stuff is difficult.

Image: RPG-RAPTOR-SHARK-YOUR-ARGUMENT-IS-INVALID.jpg

237 HappyWarrior  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:25:57am

re: #235 avanti

Wow, Fox is spinning this so hard to be bad news, I fear they'll bore a hole in the ground. Most of the spin is how we let down our friends the Saudi's for example. CNN is still in the thick of the celebration, while Fox is pissing on the parade with the talking heads. BTW, even Megan Fox is trying to temper the gloom and doom talk from the talking heads on the far right, that's how bad it is.

Fox News: We Spin, You Decide.

238 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:26:28am

re: #235 avanti

Wow, Fox is spinning this so hard to be bad news, I fear they'll bore a hole in the ground. Most of the spin is how we let down our friends the Saudi's for example. CNN is still in the thick of the celebration, while Fox is pissing on the parade with the talking heads. BTW, even Megan Fox is trying to temper the gloom and doom talk from the talking heads on the far right, that's how bad it is.

May His Noodly Appendages curse the 24 hour news cycle.

239 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:27:41am

re: #234 wrenchwench

I think we invaded because Saddam tried to kill GW's daddy, but I was supporting the notion that some good certainly came out of it.

Personally, I take major advisors to the Bush administration (members of PNAC) at their word - we invaded to advance American hegemony.

But I think that the good that came out of it is far from certain. The Iraqi public - minus the millions that fled and the hundreds of thousands that have died - is decidedly mixed on their opinions about the "benefits" of the invasion. In terms of American interests, the balance is certainly on the negative.

240 Jadespring  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:27:54am

[Link: www.stumbleupon.com...]

In celebration of Hosni Mubarak's resignation after 30 years of uninterrupted rule, hackers have broken into the website of the National Democratic Party (NDP), the Egyptian ruling party. Established by President Anwar El Sadat in 1978, the NDP dominated Egyptian political life under Mubarak; their headquarters was set on fire by anti-government protestors on January 28th as Egyptians took to the streets. The NDP website now looks like this:

Link to NDP site.
[Link: www.cairondp.org...]

They don't seem to have a good translation for it yet but google translate says...
O safe from Egypt

Keep our country and to our beloved Egypt, and all enemies of evils ... I love you Egypt

241 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:28:34am

re: #223 ArchangelMichael

The joke, such that it is, is that *they* are going there. I figured the "JBS Member: " tag at the beginning of that was an implication it was not my opinion.

It wasn't quite clear to me whether it was an actual quote - just not able to attribute it, or a "joke quote" added into a comment. If the former than full shame on them since beyond the nuking comment in poor taste fruther negative implications were added that are additionally in poor taste in being applied to human beings (and/or peaceful aliens not intent on using our bodies as nesting compartments for their offspring.)

242 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:29:31am

re: #236 Varek Raith

Image: RPG-RAPTOR-SHARK-YOUR-ARGUMENT-IS-INVALID.jpg

OMG. ROTFLMAO.

Time to call the SubCops.

243 Stanghazi  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:30:37am

ianinegypt Ian Lee
RT @jonjensen: Egyptian humor at its finest: [Link: www.ismubarakstillpresident.com...] #Egypt #Jan25 #Mubarak #Tahrir

245 Kragar  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:34:29am

re: #151 Dreggas

I didn't like how they did DOW 2, it was ok but I preferred the massive army single player campaign. I am holding out for the new Witcher game as well as Rift.

re: #133 Jadespring

I liked Dragon Age a lot but not sure if I am going to pull the trigger on part 2. I got burned out on the original + expansion and haven't kept up with the new content etc.

Retribution is supposed to be bringing the big armies back.

246 Jadespring  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:34:46am

re: #235 avanti

Wow, Fox is spinning this so hard to be bad news, I fear they'll bore a hole in the ground. Most of the spin is how we let down our friends the Saudi's for example. CNN is still in the thick of the celebration, while Fox is pissing on the parade with the talking heads. BTW, even Megan Fox is trying to temper the gloom and doom talk from the talking heads on the far right, that's how bad it is.

Oh goodness.

That's so bad.

Turning back to other channels now.

248 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:36:31am

re: #175 ggt

The people of Iraq are no longer living under a brutal dictator. They are free to vote the laws and leaders they want.

Well, there's freedom and there's freedom. There's still institutional corruption in the government, there's still problems with voting rights, press freedom, etc. The Economist considers Iraq a 'mixed regime'.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

If we want to promote democracy, we have to accept what people choose even if we don't like it.

If we want to promote democracy, we shouldn't support autocracy, oligarchy, and theocracy. A country that has theocracy built into it is not a real democracy, not by US standards. If we just mean 'majority vote', then sure, theocracy can be a democracy. If we mean 'a democracy like the US', then having checks and balances, secularism, and protection of the minority is necessary.

I prefer to trust the people than a group of *others* who would play with governments as they would play chess.

I wouldn't. I'd prefer to trust the people when acting within a country with a strong Constitution ensuring protection of the minority. Otherwise, you'll generally get a situation where the minority is terribly oppressed by the majority.

I don't know who these group of 'others' are, of course.

249 HappyWarrior  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:42:44am

Just posted on the president's facebook page but he's going to make a speech at 3 regarding the situation. Cue wingnuts whining that he's trying to take the sails out of CPAC.

250 leftynyc  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:45:08am

re: #227 CyanSnowHawk

Well here you go then.

Not really sure why you want it though.

OK - I did get a chuckle out of that.

251 lawhawk  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:53:54am

#
1939: The BBC's Rana Jawad in the Libyan capital, Tripoli, says: "It has been a long and surreal day for many here, who keenly watched events unfold in neighbouring Egypt on their television screens. But it was not on national news broadcasters that they relied on - Libyan state TV waited for almost an hour to mention the announcement on the ticker at the bottom of the screen. The reaction has mostly been one of excitement, but at times accompanied by a degree of bewilderment at the speed of the developments in Egypt, and caution over what is to come after. All this expressed in private or on social networking sites like Facebook. However the key message from the Libyan public is that they are proud of their neighbours. The Libyan leader, Muammar Gaddafi, has so far remained silent over developments in Egypt, so too have most officials here, though it is believed the majority are unhappy that two long-serving heads of state have been ousted by popular protests so far this year. Col Gaddafi has been in power for 41 years."

252 tradewind  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:56:45am

Very happy for the Egyptian people now. The problem is, what will rush in to fill the vacuum? There are no provisionals in place, at least none that have been disclosed. Getting a government up and running that can hold free and fair elections is not done in a few days or even weeks.
Hopefully the US will be able/allowed to send advisors and technical help to the people to set up the underpinnings of a democracy, because otherwise, the most ruthless and organized bunch ( read> MB) will be ready to step in.
So it's not an Islamic uprising..... yet.
Neither was the Iranian revolution, at first.
Then the army lost control.

253 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:57:53am

re: #239 Talking Point Detective

Personally, I take major advisors to the Bush administration (members of PNAC) at their word - we invaded to advance American hegemony.

But I think that the good that came out of it is far from certain. The Iraqi public - minus the millions that fled and the hundreds of thousands that have died - is decidedly mixed on their opinions about the "benefits" of the invasion. In terms of American interests, the balance is certainly on the negative.

yeah, but some guys made a lot of money on that war

as it always happens

254 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 11:59:03am

re: #235 avanti

Wow, Fox is spinning this so hard to be bad news, I fear they'll bore a hole in the ground. Most of the spin is how we let down our friends the Saudi's for example. CNN is still in the thick of the celebration, while Fox is pissing on the parade with the talking heads. BTW, even Megan Fox is trying to temper the gloom and doom talk from the talking heads on the far right, that's how bad it is.

ahahahaha we let the SAUDIS DOWN HOW WILL WE GO ON

Fox news, gotta love the brainwashing apparatus

255 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 12:00:01pm

re: #248 Obdicut

Well, there's freedom and there's freedom. There's still institutional corruption in the government, there's still problems with voting rights, press freedom, etc. The Economist considers Iraq a 'mixed regime'.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

If we want to promote democracy, we shouldn't support autocracy, oligarchy, and theocracy. A country that has theocracy built into it is not a real democracy, not by US standards. If we just mean 'majority vote', then sure, theocracy can be a democracy. If we mean 'a democracy like the US', then having checks and balances, secularism, and protection of the minority is necessary.

I wouldn't. I'd prefer to trust the people when acting within a country with a strong Constitution ensuring protection of the minority. Otherwise, you'll generally get a situation where the minority is terribly oppressed by the majority.

I don't know who these group of 'others' are, of course.

Sharia Law is open to interpretation in many respects, and as such, I'm not sure it is necessarily inconsistent with protection of minorities or checks and balances.

For example, from Rauf:

But it is important that we understand what is meant by Shariah law. Islamic law is about God's law, and it is not that far from what we read in the Declaration of Independence about "the Laws of Nature and Nature's God." The Declaration says "men are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights; that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

That said, in post-Saddam Iraq it seems that Sharia Law has been used to justify and legally justify such barbaric acts such as honor killings, and inequality between men and women. I think what matters most is the facts on the ground and not necessarily the abstraction: For example, from what I've seen, it is debatable whether conditions for women aren't significantly worse now than they were when Saddam was in power.

256 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 12:04:51pm

Fox News poll:


The Egyptian military will restore order, but not allow a democracy. 9.13%

The Muslim Brotherhood will assert power and become the country’s dominant force. 40.25%

Protesters and opposition groups will keep pushing, and establish a democratic Egypt. 13.46%

It’s too soon to tell. This is far from over. 36.4%

Other (leave a comment). 0.78%

So, some 50% of Fox readers are quite sure that there will be no democracy or that the MB will be the dominant force. I wonder where they get that impression?

257 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 12:05:11pm

re: #255 Talking Point Detective

Sharia Law is open to interpretation in many respects, and as such, I'm not sure it is necessarily inconsistent with protection of minorities or checks and balances.

Any religious law encoded in the government is necessarily inconsistent with the protection of minorities, yes. Otherwise, it really wouldn't be a religious law.

258 Logician  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 12:07:48pm

The poll was conducted by telephone in Cairo and Alexandria. Do we know how representative the opinion of phone owners in those cities is of the Egyptian electorate as a whole?

259 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 12:16:28pm

re: #257 Obdicut

As I recall, the Iraqi constitution has provisions to protect the rights of religious minorities (not that it changes conditions for Christians there, as one example). There are always ambiguities that can mean different outcomes in their real-world manifestations. Many people read our Constitution to be a statement of Judeo-Christian values. It really depends on the intent of those who hold the reins of power.

Regardless, the reality for women and religious minorities in Iraq now is arguably worse than it was prior to the invasion; the argument that the invasion promoted freedom and democracy is highly, highly flawed. We will soon see whether a governmental transformation brought about by internal forces proves to create, in the end, a more democratic society. My guess is that it will.

260 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 12:17:51pm

re: #258 Logician

The poll was conducted by telephone in Cairo and Alexandria. Do we know how representative the opinion of phone owners in those cities is of the Egyptian electorate as a whole?

From what I've heard, it isn't. My sense is that the more rural areas tend to be more pro-Mubarak, although I have no idea if they're likely to be more Islamist.

261 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 12:23:26pm

re: #252 tradewind

Very happy for the Egyptian people now. The problem is, what will rush in to fill the vacuum? There are no provisionals in place, at least none that have been disclosed. Getting a government up and running that can hold free and fair elections is not done in a few days or even weeks.
Hopefully the US will be able/allowed to send advisors and technical help to the people to set up the underpinnings of a democracy, because otherwise, the most ruthless and organized bunch ( read> MB) will be ready to step in.
So it's not an Islamic uprising... yet.
Neither was the Iranian revolution, at first.
Then the army lost control.


Official American "advisors" would likely be the kiss of death. In effect, we already have American advisors there - as the Egyptian military officers have mostly had extensive training in the U.S.

It is my impression that the Iranian revolution was significantly more anti-Western and anti-secularization than what is currently happening in Egypt.

262 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 12:26:44pm

re: #259 Talking Point Detective

Many people read our Constitution to be a statement of Judeo-Christian values. It really depends on the intent of those who hold the reins of power.

I'm sorry, you're completely wrong. you're comparing our Constitution, which has no mention of God in it whatsoever and simply a premise of not respecting an established religion, with a Constitution which specifically recognizes one religion as the basis for law.

The difference is not just in the intent of those who hold the reins of power. The difference is also in the document itself, writ large. I'm not sure why you think otherwise.

263 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 12:34:42pm

re: #262 Obdicut

I'm sorry, you're completely wrong. you're comparing our Constitution, which has no mention of God in it whatsoever and simply a premise of not respecting an established religion, with a Constitution which specifically recognizes one religion as the basis for law.

The difference is not just in the intent of those who hold the reins of power. The difference is also in the document itself, writ large. I'm not sure why you think otherwise.

The world doesn't only exist in how you think it should be logically arranged. There are many, many, in this country who believe that the Constitution is inherently linked to what they call Judeo-Christian values. Their belief has very real implications in our society today - as in laws about abortion or same sex marriage, which are based in religious doctrine. I think otherwise because it is a reality. And just as those in power can find enough ambiguity to legislate from religious doctrine in our country, they could interpret the Iraqi constitution to protect the rights of minorities if they so chose.

Again, there are ambiguities in the notion of what Sharia law means and/or doesn't mean: Rauf would be one example of someone who, specifically, feels that there is no inherent contradiction between, say, Sharia law and the protection of minority rights. I take him at his word about what he believes.

264 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 12:39:06pm

re: #263 Talking Point Detective

There are many, many, in this country who believe that the Constitution is inherently linked to what they call Judeo-Christian values.

Yes, but they're wrong, as can easily be told by reading the actual document, which doesn't mention God at all, or any religion in particular.

I think otherwise because it is a reality.

No, it is not reality. The reality is that there is no mention of God in the Constitution whatsoever, and only a specification that the Government not respect the establishment of a religion.

And just as those in power can find enough ambiguity to legislate from religious doctrine in our country, they could interpret the Iraqi constitution to protect the rights of minorities if they so chose.

They're not 'finding' ambiguity, though. They're simply making it up.

Your argument is entirely without merit, and I'm feeling that once again, you're just arguing to argue. That's the generous interpretation.

265 CommonCents  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 12:45:13pm

re: #66 ralphieboy

Iran was driving along fine as a democracy until the CIA derailed it in 1953...

What's your education level on the history of Iran pre-1953? Do you think the CIA and MI6 bounced Mosaddeq for fun? He was nationalizing british petroleum interests and cuddling up to the Soviets. There was a cold war back then, in fact the Korean War against Soviet proxies was in process while the build up to the coup was underway.

266 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 12:49:39pm

re: #264 Obdicut

Yes, but they're wrong, as can easily be told by reading the actual document, which doesn't mention God at all, or any religion in particular.

No, it is not reality. The reality is that there is no mention of God in the Constitution whatsoever, and only a specification that the Government not respect the establishment of a religion.

They're not 'finding' ambiguity, though. They're simply making it up.

Your argument is entirely without merit, and I'm feeling that once again, you're just arguing to argue. That's the generous interpretation.

You can interpret it as you wish, my friend. And you're free to stop engaging in the discussion whenever you choose.

I'm arguing because I think that you are wrong on the merits of the discussion. Whether you think they are correct or not, the fact of the matter is that we have laws in this country which are unarguably based on religious doctrine because whether you think they are correct or not, people interpret documents such as constitutions based on their starting assumptions and their intentions. As such, a state which codifies Shariah law in their constitution could protect the rights of minorities in reality (as, I recall, is also codified in the Iraqi constitution).

Oh, and btw - with regard to your comments to me last night. I did think about it, and I feel that you were wrong. Ludwig was off base. I looked through the interactions again, and in fact, he inaccurately represented what I said and he failed to be accountable for the contradictions in what he said. If you see that as me arguing just for the sake of arguing, that's on you.

267 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 12:54:58pm
Whether you think they are correct or not, the fact of the matter is that we have laws in this country which are unarguably based on religious doctrine because whether you think they are correct or not, people interpret documents such as constitutions based on their starting assumptions and their intentions.

It's not whether I think they're correct. They're actually wrong.

As such, a state which codifies Shariah law in their constitution could protect the rights of minorities in reality (as, I recall, is also codified in the Iraqi constitution).

Which is a contradiction, with enshrining Islamic law in the constitution. It's a highly flawed document.

Your argument is basically "It doesn't matter what's written in constitutions because people will interpret it however they want".

Which is an absolutely pointless argument to make, and actually glosses over the severe, terrible fucking problem that we have in this country with theocrats pretending the Constitution enshrines religion when it doesn't.

268 CommonCents  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 1:16:57pm

re: #262 Obdicut

"...a premise of not respecting an established religion"

Not to be too critical or jump in the middle of your discussion, but the Constitution says "respecting an establishment of religion." Your words imply disrespect.

269 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 1:29:43pm

re: #268 CommonCents

"...a premise of not respecting an established religion"

Not to be too critical or jump in the middle of your discussion, but the Constitution says "respecting an establishment of religion." Your words imply disrespect.

Disrespect? For what?

270 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 3:00:08pm

re: #269 Fozzie Bear

Disrespect? For what?

haha hooray for cryptic grouchiness

271 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 3:12:39pm

re: #267 Obdicut

It's not whether I think they're correct. They're actually wrong.

Which is a contradiction, with enshrining Islamic law in the constitution. It's a highly flawed document.

Your argument is basically "It doesn't matter what's written in constitutions because people will interpret it however they want".

Which is an absolutely pointless argument to make, and actually glosses over the severe, terrible fucking problem that we have in this country with theocrats pretending the Constitution enshrines religion when it doesn't.

Obdicut - sorry, but when you choose to extend my argument as you have done, and then characterize it in a certain light as you have done, then you cease to be engaging in a good faith discussion. For the sake of not wasting my time or your time, let me know if and when you're ready to engage in a good-faith discussion. Otherwise, I'll see you on another thread.

272 Girl with a Pearl Earring  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 4:09:38pm

re: #106 Charles

No, he's not. Romney is pandering.

273 enigma3535  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 7:17:25pm

This situation is so fricken' fluid that I am not sure what I think about it ... Egypt appears to be a fairly secular culture and the Military appears to be capitalist and pragmatic ... but ...

... the battling Polls? ... Investors Business Daily had some other poll results that were more concerning about what all Egyptians feel [vs those with a phone]:

"According to a major survey conducted last year by the Pew Research Center:"

[their opining redacted; what they focused on left in]

"Among highlights from the Pew poll:

• 49% of Egyptians say Islam plays only a "small role" in public affairs under President Hosni Mubarak, while 95% prefer the religion play a "large role in politics."
• 84% favor the death penalty for people who leave the Muslim faith.
• 82% support stoning adulterers.
• 77% think thieves should have their hands cut off.
• 54% support a law segregating women from men in the workplace.
• 54% believe suicide bombings that kill civilians can be justified.
• Nearly half support the terrorist group Hamas.
• 30% have a favorable opinion of Hezbollah.
• 20% maintain positive views of al-Qaida and Osama bin Laden.
• 82% of Egyptians dislike the U.S. — the highest unfavorable rating among the 18 Muslim nations Pew surveyed."

I doubt that IBD mis-quoted the Poll ... that said ... I just don't know ... what just happened in Egypt could be good, could bad bad and could not matter ... apparently, even the Pentagon doesn't know.

274 enigma3535  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 7:42:58pm

re: #266 Talking Point Detective
Sorry for getting into this late, but, sir, I must quibble with your assertion that laws in this country are unarguable based on religious doctrine ... law, as it exists, appears to be based on millenniums of people living with other people ... what works gets codified and judicial precedent gets founded. All of said people have some religous belief, so one can't argue that religion does not factor into their laws. But, there are thousands of religions in the historical record, so their impact on legal systems is natural ... all peoples have them ... ergo, your point is moot.

275 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 8:00:08pm

re: #274 enigma3535

Sorry for getting into this late, but, sir, I must quibble with your assertion that laws in this country are unarguable based on religious doctrine ... law, as it exists, appears to be based on millenniums of people living with other people ... what works gets codified and judicial precedent gets founded. All of said people have some religous belief, so one can't argue that religion does not factor into their laws. But, there are thousands of religions in the historical record, so their impact on legal systems is natural ... all peoples have them ... ergo, your point is moot.

As an example - the point at which people determine when life begins varies, often, by religious beliefs. So while we have laws that restrict abortions in some ways, other countries have different abortion laws. Similarly, laws preventing or allowing same sex marriages or multiple marriages are a function of religious perspectives.

At any rate, I don't see how your argument that religion affects laws in all countries makes the point moot that laws are based on religious doctrine in this country.

To the larger point - religion is open to interpretation in multiple ways. Some would interpret Sharia to allow discrimination towards women or minorities and some wouldn't. Some would interpret Christian doctrine to allow minorities to be treated as 3/5 of a human being, and some wouldn't. Some would interpret "all men are created equal" to disallow slavery, some wouldn't. Some would interpret Christian doctrine to outlaw any type of abortion, some wouldn't. Constitutions, just like religious doctrine, are open to interpretation and thus the laws at a particular time in a particular country will vary as those who hold the reins of power vary in their interpretations of founding documents and/or religious doctrine.

276 enigma3535  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 8:08:31pm

re: #275 Talking Point Detective

exactly

277 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 8:08:33pm

More related to whether Sharia law and human rights are mutually exclusive:

At the most basic level, shariah is the Muslim universe of ideals. It is the result of their collective effort to understand and apply the Quran and supplementary teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (called Sunna) in order to earn God's pleasure and secure human welfare in this life and attain human salvation in the life to come. While the Quran and Sunna are transcendent and unchangeable, shariah itself is the negotiated result of competing interpretations. In fact, most Muslims tend to speak not of shariah but of fiqh, which literally means "understanding" and underscores the distinction between God's prescriptions on the one hand and the human attempt to understand these on the other. This in turn explains two other unavoidable characteristics of shariah: diversity of opinion, and inevitable change.... For example, there were no domes, schools of fiqh or minarets in the Prophet's Arabia. Likewise, the fact that there was no democracy or "human rights" does not automatically render these "un-Islamic." In short, shariah includes the attempt to proffer God-conscious responses to an ever-changing reality. And in this capacity, many of its rules are subject to change with changes in the circumstances to which it seeks to respond.


[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

278 William  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 8:25:00pm

"The nation of Iraq, with its proud heritage, abundant resources and skilled and educated people is fully capable of moving toward democracy and living in freedom. The world has a clear interest in the spread of democratic values, because stable and free nations do not breed the ideologies of murder. They encourage the peaceful pursuit of a better life. And there are hopeful signs of the desire for freedom in the Middle East. Arab intellectuals have called on Arab governments to address the freedom gap so their peoples can fully share in the progress of our times. Leaders in the region speak of a new Arab charter that champions internal reform, greater political participation, economic openness and free trade. And from Morocco to Bahrain and beyond, nations are taking genuine steps toward political reform. A new regime in Iraq would serve as a dramatic and inspiring example of freedom for other nations in the region."

- President George W. Bush, February 27, 2003

279 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 8:38:45pm

re: #278 William

"The nation of Iraq, with its proud heritage, abundant resources and skilled and educated people is fully capable of moving toward democracy and living in freedom. The world has a clear interest in the spread of democratic values, because stable and free nations do not breed the ideologies of murder. They encourage the peaceful pursuit of a better life. And there are hopeful signs of the desire for freedom in the Middle East. Arab intellectuals have called on Arab governments to address the freedom gap so their peoples can fully share in the progress of our times. Leaders in the region speak of a new Arab charter that champions internal reform, greater political participation, economic openness and free trade. And from Morocco to Bahrain and beyond, nations are taking genuine steps toward political reform. A new regime in Iraq would serve as a dramatic and inspiring example of freedom for other nations in the region."

- President George W. Bush, February 27, 2003

What evidence do you have that any Egyptian sees Iraq as an inspirational example? Of all the interviews you presumably heard with Egyptians, has even one of them mentioned Iraq? Has one on them mentioned Bush? Has one of them cited the invasion of Iraq as an example of the power of freedom? One?

I was looking through some LGF archives linked at the stalker blog, and came across an interesting post from August 2002:

Growler,

Saddam's interests are Middle East parochial.

He's not educated enough to look beyond the Middle East.

Sure, he realizes that New York exists. If an attack on New York would gain him something, he'd leap to finance it. If an attack on New York would have no gain for him, he'd ignore the proposal.

Saddam is not Al-Qaeda.

Al-Qaeda has dispersed. Al-Qaeda has not been destroyed. Al-Qaeda is certifiably a greater threat to the West than Saddam has ever been.

To me, it makes little sense to turn attention away from the greater threat to destroy a littler threat.

Destroy Al-Qaeda and Al-Qaeda's supporters first. If Saddam is indeed among Al-Qaeda's supporters, then destroy him.

Nobody here has bothered to address one of my major points. The United States takes Saddam down. Then what?

The biggest single source of support for Osama Bin Laden lies south of Iraq. Saddam goes and anarchy is loosed upon Iraq. Iraq is now a fertile garden for the sponsors of Al-Qaeda to play their deadly games of recruitment in.

Saddam is less a threat to the West than the financiers and ideologists for religious war that preach in the mosques in Riyadh.

If Rumsfeld were really serious, he'd be speaking about the need to go for the head. What he's doing is playing out the Gulf War again.

280 enigma3535  Fri, Feb 11, 2011 8:54:08pm

re: #277

Talking Point DetectiveIt is probable that the hardware we all possess is 100,000 yrs old, or so, given a few dozen millennium in either direction .... the software the runs our brains has progressed steadily since.

Over the course of those intervening millenia, a steady stream of religions emerged from the human race ... several thousand that are mutually exclusive ... as humans needed to explain things their software could not grasp.

Lately, said software, coupled with tool development, has started to explain everything that matters.

Wicked shmart folks have postulated that the universe is 14 billion, or so, years old ... that our universe contains billions of galaxies with billions of stars each ... that the material that makes up most of our solar system comes from stars that died billions of years ago ... facts not opinions ... pictures taken to support it in fact [for us laymen].

All the answers are now there.

No god created a universe 14 billion years ago to shepherd us now ... no facts support any other supposition .... all the facts support a supposition that we are religious by nature .. one can draw ones won conclusions about the current world order from that.

Humans laws appear to have evolved so that we can function as we compress ourselves together ... religion factors into this equation ... but it is just a factor.

281 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:21:49am

re: #280 enigma3535

I'm with you. Except the question of "Why do we exist?" hasn't been answered, and so people (or some, at least) will resist the facts that you allude to, and continue to believe that a god or gods created the universe 14 billion years ago.

282 yitzchak  Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:31:38pm

Somebody up-thread quotes the Pew poll, which is more alarming. I wonder if the reason for the difference is that this poll is limited to Cairo and Alexandria. The more rural areas probably favor Islam more.


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