The Cuteness! I needed this tonight. I hope the little lovely survives!

Oh dear. Cuteness alert.

Aww.

Now I’m hungry.

DO click on the link! He’s tiny as a fill grown antelope!

“I didn’t come from no ungulate!”
[Link: www.ultimateungulate.com…]

Hmmm I see on the page that this little guy is in San Diego. My brother was at that zoo recently. Wonder if he saw the little guy, he’s got a weakness for cute animals. Nice site too.

re: #4 Floral Giraffe

DO click on the link! He’s tiny as a full grown antelope!

PIYF

Ha ha

mand0z Mohannad

The number of drunk Egyptians tonight is the answer to all the islamists-taking-over theories. #Jan25

I’m reminded of when my step-mother had a lamb that needed extra care and she was keeping it in the house (in a diaper! :banghead: )

She really didn’t like it when I named the lamb Seder ;)

I am off to bed.

I’m reminded of when my step-mother had a lamb that needed extra care and she was keeping it in the house (in a diaper! :banghead: )

She really didn’t like it when I named that lamb Seder ;)

Ok, I’m not sure how that double post happened.

re: #11 wlewisiii

I’m reminded of when my step-mother had a lamb that needed extra care and she was keeping it in the house (in a diaper! :banghead: )

She really didn’t like it when I named that lamb Seder ;)

Deja vu all over again..

I’m off to bed.

re: #13 b_sharp

Deja vu all over again..

ditto

re: #2 Jadespring

Oh dear. Cuteness alert.

This thing was so cute they had to go back and ask for more photos. It has two entries on Zooborns.

good night, y’all.

This is really cool. It’s the square. Shows how it was set up. They even had a kindergarten for the kids!

[Link: www.bbc.co.uk…]

re: #8 Jadespring

Ha ha

mand0z Mohannad

The number of drunk Egyptians tonight is the answer to all the islamists-taking-over theories. #Jan25

LOL! Seriously. I can only imagine the party going on in Cairo right now.

Good night, all.

Well even though I’ve mostly just sat on my couch it’s been quite a day.

Time to get some sleep.

Back at the end of august I posted here about my father and how he had just been given three months to live. Well we were given a little over five months. He passed away easily tonight, while I held his hand and told him what a great job he had done. How everyone was taken care of.

He had a brain tumor, so he didn’t really hear me or understand the words. However he closed his eyes and took his last breath.

Goodnight.

re: #22 Buck

Back at the end of august I posted here about my father and how he had just been given three months to live. Well we were given a little over five months. He passed away easily tonight, while I held his hand and told him what a great job he had done. How everyone was taken care of.

He had a brain tumor, so he didn’t really hear me or understand the words. However he closed his eyes and took his last breath.

Goodnight.

I am so sorry, but glad that he went easily, and with his life’s work done.

{Buck}

re: #22 Buck

Back at the end of august I posted here about my father and how he had just been given three months to live. Well we were given a little over five months. He passed away easily tonight, while I held his hand and told him what a great job he had done. How everyone was taken care of.

He had a brain tumor, so he didn’t really hear me or understand the words. However he closed his eyes and took his last breath.

Goodnight.

I’m glad he was able to depart in peace. I am sorry for you loss, though.

(((Buck)))

re: #22 Buck

So sorry. Thoughts to you and yours.

re: #22 Buck

Back at the end of august I posted here about my father and how he had just been given three months to live. Well we were given a little over five months. He passed away easily tonight, while I held his hand and told him what a great job he had done. How everyone was taken care of.

He had a brain tumor, so he didn’t really hear me or understand the words. However he closed his eyes and took his last breath.

Goodnight.

Namaste

re: #22 Buck

re: #22 Buck

I hope both you and he are at peace with the world.
You get beaten up a lot here, but this is a time for comfort from friends.
I hope you are OK, or doing well, which is the best I would be doing in your shoes. If I can help, please let me know!

re: #22 Buck

Sorry. Write of him when you have time.

re: #22 Buck

It’s REALLY hard to loose a loved one.
I am sorry for your pain.

[[BUCK}}

That’ll make a great wedding gift for prince William.

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk…]

Just keep in mind that these people are out there in numbers far greater than you’re likely to find comforting.

Rule 34: If it can be imagined, there is porn involving it. No exceptions.

re: #32 negativ

Just keep in mind that these people are out there in numbers far greater than you’re likely to find comforting.

Rule 34: If it can be imagined, there is porn involving it. No exceptions.

I already knew this existed, but it still makes my skin crawl.

re: #31 latitude51

That’ll make a great wedding gift for prince William.

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk…]

That story is from back in 2003. And I also say “So what?” If a man is going to be a national leader (even if only in an inspirational capacity), I’d rather he be able to kill. It lets me know that the man isn’t squeamish.

(((Bauua)))
And a *smooch*
Some of the banned are still OK in my book.

re: #34 Dark_Falcon

Man has to kill it, drag it home and eat it.
Or try again, another day.

re: #22 Buck

Back at the end of august I posted here about my father and how he had just been given three months to live. Well we were given a little over five months. He passed away easily tonight, while I held his hand and told him what a great job he had done. How everyone was taken care of.

He had a brain tumor, so he didn’t really hear me or understand the words. However he closed his eyes and took his last breath.

Goodnight.

You and I agree on very little… but I bow my head and will try my best to feel your pain… though so far along in life I am lucky to have never felt such a tragedy….

re: #22 Buck

Peace be upon you.

re: #22 Buck

Back at the end of august I posted here about my father and how he had just been given three months to live. Well we were given a little over five months. He passed away easily tonight, while I held his hand and told him what a great job he had done. How everyone was taken care of.

He had a brain tumor, so he didn’t really hear me or understand the words. However he closed his eyes and took his last breath.

Goodnight.

{{Buck}}

My deepest sympathies.

re: #34 Dark_Falcon

Hey, I like what he did, then and now. Nailed a 14 inch critter with a spear. Didn’t someone recently blow a box of ammo on a caribou with no effect, from a scoped rifle?

That website is the crack of cute.

re: #41 latitude51

Hey, I like what he did, then and now. Nailed a 14 inch critter with a spear. Didn’t someone recently blow a box of ammo on a caribou with no effect, from a scoped rifle?

It was edited to the ground.

re: #22 Buck

{{{{{Buck}}}}}

Good night all.
May you sleep well.
Especially if sleeping well, is not your wont.
*smooch*

What a day! Hopefully, 2/11 will no longer be remembered as Iran’s Islamist Revolution Day, but as Egypt’s Democratic Revolution Day.

It’s all in the hands of the Egyptian Army. Hope they understand that our money comes with strings…

I keep going back to the NYT’s homepage and smiling every time I see the banner headline “Egypt Erupts in Jubilation.” That’s the best kind of eruption by far.

re: #41 latitude51

Hey, I like what he did, then and now. Nailed a 14 inch critter with a spear. Didn’t someone recently blow a box of ammo on a caribou with no effect, from a scoped rifle?

Less than a box, but still it was a FAIL. Sorry I misunderstood you.

re: #47 Irenicum

I keep going back to the NYT’s homepage and smiling every time I see the banner headline “Egypt Erupts in Jubilation.” That’s the best kind of eruption by far.

Agreed. Let’s hope it is sustainable at a dull roar. It will take a year to dismantle the existing bureaucracy and put in a system that is transparent, That will be crucial for foreign investment to flow into the country. In Egypt, 42% of the people live in abject poverty, and there are 82 million people in the country. Hard row to hoe.

Night all. Sleep well. Sweet dreams.

re: #49 austin_blue

Agreed. Let’s hope it is sustainable at a dull roar. It will take a year to dismantle the existing bureaucracy and put in a system that is transparent, That will be crucial for foreign investment to flow into the country. In Egypt, 42% of the people live in abject poverty, and there are 82 million people in the country. Hard row to hoe.

Night all. Sleep well. Sweet dreams.

Honestly, it’ll take much longer than that to do a revamp. Mostly because you can’t really dismantle the ‘existing bureaucracy’ until you get things stabilized. Try to do it while things are still in flux and you get Iraq 2003.

re: #49 austin_blue

Agreed. It’s a long road indeed. But they’re on the right road.

re: #50 Dark_Falcon

Good point DF. We look at the last 18 days and think that this is the timeline that matters, when history has a much larger trajectory. But there are key turning points in history and I think this may be one of them. At least I hope so.

re: #50 Dark_Falcon

Honestly, it’ll take much longer than that to do a revamp. Mostly because you can’t really dismantle the ‘existing bureaucracy’ until you get things stabilized. Try to do it while things are still in flux and you get Iraq 2003.

One big difference between Egypt now and Iraq then, though — Egypt wasn’t invaded, and they didn’t have their government toppled by an outside military. This was entirely internal. That gives me far more hope that people will stabilize the country faster and take a real, active role in becoming more of a democratic state.

re: #22 Buck

Condolences. It’s never easy.

Part of the Administration’s counter-strategy to the Tea Partiers:
Obama Seeks to End $46.2 Billion in Energy Tax Breaks in Decade

G’night all. Take care.

Sending prayers and thoughts to you and your family Buck. So sorry for your loss.

Ave Maria, Bruckner style:

re: #35 Floral Giraffe

(((Bauua)))
And a *smooch*
Some of the banned are still OK in my book.

Bagua is the most hideously twisted and malevolent character over there. He harassed iceweasel for months here before getting banned (for calling her a “lying whore” and a “sociopath”) . Last time I looked over there (just after BB flounced) he was obsessively linking to a sick page on urban dictionary (that he no doubt posted himself) which describes ice as:

A smarmy prostitute from New York.
A whiny pathetic lizard on Little Green Footballs with the wit of a cadaver.
A failed porn actress with HIV.
An animal with a cold heart, a self hating bitch.
A mindless provocateur.
An animal that only has legs to keep from leaving a trail like a snail, an iceweasel

That’s your ‘prince’ Bagua, Floral.

Seriously Floral, you need to stop reading over there, and I would advise against having anything whatsoever to do with anyone who is posting there.

re: #61 Jimmah

Who is bauua. Who is Bagua?

re: #62 EdDantes

Who is bauua. Who is Bagua?

Same person, just mis-spelled in the first case - a banned LGF poster with an extremely creepy obsession with iceweasel.

re: #63 Jimmah

Got it.

Meanwhile in Bangladesh, a 14 year old girl is murdered by a community of rabidly religious village idiots on the strength of claims of ‘whoredom’; local doctors assist in the cover-up:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

Royal Antelopes grow to 10-12 inches high.

re: #22 Buck

Take care, Buck.

re: #22 Buck

Requiem aeternam dona eis, Domine

I’ve mentioned here before about how I am becoming increasingly troubled about the path of applied (as in the social/political meaning, not cytological) genetics in our culture, and how genetic racism is rearing its ugly head, even among some well known science bloggers.

Anyway, in concert with that is the ever waiting cadre of under-beings who are just hoping to add to their arsenal of hate.

Yesterday VDARE published an essay by Cooper Sterling (noted lover of Tancredo and the Youth for Western Civilization), who is promoting a book that discusses eugenics and jewry, which essentially argues that Jewry is highly related to eugenics and indeed Jewry has practiced it implicitly and thus the irony of so many academic Jews in decrying eugenics.

It’s all a sordid mess of trying to establish the moral high ground for cultural/racial purity.

The book in question is Jewish Eugenics and perhaps the author did not intend it to be used in the way Cooper Sterling did in his VDARE essay, but as you can see by the 1 lengthy review at Amazon the book has certainly attracted the racial-purity crowd.

The abuse of modern genetic science by racists/xenophobes should not be ignored, and likewise the bubbling up from the abyss of reactionary culture-puritanism is likewise potent, and the two are finding a harmony in certain dark corners of our society.

Morning, all

re: #69 freetoken

Consider this- Jews, Basketball And The Human Condition

It is more a look at the social conditions (surprise).

re: #69 freetoken

What do you mean by “genetic racism” as espoused by science bloggers? (As opposed to, say, stormfront)?

re: #71 researchok

Yes, you make a case that culture trumps.

However, and this is where things are going to get real sticky in the next decade or two, it is probably the case that genetics plays a role that can actually be identified, in so far as certain aspects of that admixture of traits labeled “IQ” is concerned. There are indications surfacing in the research that certain human capabilities can, in part, be traced to localities on the genome.

I expect that this issue is going to slowly cook under the hood, with only dedicated readers (certainly not the Oprah audience) following it. But, the rise of xenophobia that is likely to accompany the malthusian struggles this country (and others) face will be fertile ground for cultural-superiority crowd, and that crowd is easily swayed by pseudo-science or misappropriated science.

re: #72 Sergey Romanov

Those who believe one race or ethnic group are superior (overall) because of genetics.

This is in contrast to the cultural racists, who usually are trying to defend their culture (Western, Christian, etc.)

Must go… but this is a topic that I hope to revisit.

re: #74 freetoken

Do prominent science bloggers engage in this?

Speaking of adorable ungulates, I believe the single most disturbing thing I have ever seen on a chan-type imageboard is their surprisingly platonic obsession with the new My Little Pony cartoon series.

re: #77 laZardo

You go to chan boards?

re: #78 Sergey Romanov

You go to chan boards?

4chan. :3 Since 2007.

IT IS A MARVELOUS PLACE. O_O

re: #73 freetoken

Yes, you make a case that culture trumps.

However, and this is where things are going to get real sticky in the next decade or two, it is probably the case that genetics plays a role that can actually be identified, in so far as certain aspects of that admixture of traits labeled “IQ” is concerned. There are indications surfacing in the research that certain human capabilities can, in part, be traced to localities on the genome.

I expect that this issue is going to slowly cook under the hood, with only dedicated readers (certainly not the Oprah audience) following it. But, the rise of xenophobia that is likely to accompany the malthusian struggles this country (and others) face will be fertile ground for cultural-superiority crowd, and that crowd is easily swayed by pseudo-science or misappropriated science.

On that we am in complete agreement. From where I sit, the ‘superior’ genes are a crock.

For example, if you take the child of mathematicians and expose that child to math concepts, the child will be perceived and test as ‘math smart’. However, if you take any child from anyplace, and expose that child to the same concepts at the same age, you will achieve the same test results.

Culture is a huge influence.

For example, tool making and usage started out in Africa as did mining and metallurgy- all while early Europeans were left in most unsophisticated ‘hunter/gatherer’ roles. Nevertheless, within a short period of time,

Then things changed. While no one can assert why this happened for sure, there is speculation social groupings in Africa became more complex and took precedence over innovation. For them, that may have been a deadly luxury- a few hundred miles from the equator and survival requires technology (Think Winnipeg or Siberia).

The topic is fascinating, but in my opinion social influences exert a lot more influence than genetic differences.
‘

re: #79 laZardo

Hmmmmmmm.

/

re: #76 Sergey Romanov

Do prominent science bloggers engage in this?

FT is right- more and more people are talking about this, unfortunately.

It all started with the controversial Bell Curve.

re: #22 Buck

Back at the end of august I posted here about my father and how he had just been given three months to live. Well we were given a little over five months. He passed away easily tonight, while I held his hand and told him what a great job he had done. How everyone was taken care of.

He had a brain tumor, so he didn’t really hear me or understand the words. However he closed his eyes and took his last breath.

Goodnight.

Buck, you have my deepest sympathy. I wish you and your family peace and healing.

re: #80 researchok

Personally, I’m agnostic on the topic. Everyone agrees that genes play a role, the disagreement is between, approximately speaking, whether it’s say 20% or 80% (the latter being Arthur Jensen’s estimate IIRC). The politics of many researchers in the “genes dominate” camp makes me wonder if their research is tainted. On the other hand, the topic is so politically incorrect (and in this case it’s not just a label) that certain results are likely to set off a storm of criticism and condemnation regardless of their validity, and this also influences what kind of researchers deal with the issue at all.

re: #84 Sergey Romanov

Personally, I’m agnostic on the topic. Everyone agrees that genes play a role, the disagreement is between, approximately speaking, whether it’s say 20% or 80% (the latter being Arthur Jensen’s estimate IIRC). The politics of many researchers in the “genes dominate” camp makes me wonder if their research is tainted. On the other hand, the topic is so politically incorrect (and in this case it’s not just a label) that certain results are likely to set off a storm of criticism and condemnation regardless of their validity, and this also influences what kind of researchers deal with the issue at all.

Agreed on pretty much all points.

I will say this though: Instinctual behaviors is very different from genetic influenced behaviors. Instinctual behavior has a lot to do with location and other external factors (we learn this from animal behavior).

The topic is fascinating.

re: #84 Sergey Romanov

And yes, you are right to note and highlight the potential of tainted research and the PC factor.

Those things won’t be going away soon.

re: #73 freetoken

Yes, you make a case that culture trumps.

However, and this is where things are going to get real sticky in the next decade or two, it is probably the case that genetics plays a role that can actually be identified, in so far as certain aspects of that admixture of traits labeled “IQ” is concerned. There are indications surfacing in the research that certain human capabilities can, in part, be traced to localities on the genome.

I expect that this issue is going to slowly cook under the hood, with only dedicated readers (certainly not the Oprah audience) following it. But, the rise of xenophobia that is likely to accompany the malthusian struggles this country (and others) face will be fertile ground for cultural-superiority crowd, and that crowd is easily swayed by pseudo-science or misappropriated science.

And I assert that any genetic component to the traits called “IQ” doesn’t matter a whit.

IQ is not necessarily a predictor of success in life or at work, or an ability to life a full and meaningful life. We need everybody. There’s a lifestyle and work needs to suit all sorts of people. There are be problems and issues and at both the extreme low end of the range (mental retardation) and the extreme high ends of the range (genius). There are challenges for all of us as individual humans no matter where we fall in the range.

Other traits contribute to a person’s success as much as IQ. Desire to work hard, do your very best, ability to interact well with others, ability to react appropriately to authority, etc.

The focus on IQ is much ado about not much, IMO.

None of the above is based on any scientific studies; just my own observations about people and behavior and their success over the course of 30 years of working in HR.

re: #86 researchok

And yes, you are right to note and highlight the potential of tainted research and the PC factor.

Those things won’t be going away soon.

Hopefully, as we are learning more and more about the genome, the issue will be made more objective/demonstrable one way or another, like freetoken describes.

re: #87 reine.de.tout

And I assert that any genetic component to the traits called “IQ” doesn’t matter a whit.

IQ is not necessarily a predictor of success in life or at work, or an ability to life a full and meaningful life. We need everybody. There’s a lifestyle and work needs to suit all sorts of people. There are be problems and issues and at both the extreme low end of the range (mental retardation) and the extreme high ends of the range (genius). There are challenges for all of us as individual humans no matter where we fall in the range.

Other traits contribute to a person’s success as much as IQ. Desire to work hard, do your very best, ability to interact well with others, ability to react appropriately to authority, etc.

The focus on IQ is much ado about not much, IMO.

None of the above is based on any scientific studies; just my own observations about people and behavior and their success over the course of 30 years of working in HR.

I agree with much of what you say. I also believe that all to often ‘instinctive behavior is often confused with genetics. There is a marked and profound difference

See my remarks to Sergey-

re: #88 Sergey Romanov

Hopefully, as we are learning more and more about the genome, the issue will be made more objective/demonstrable one way or another, like freetoken describes.

I hope so, but I have to admit I’ believe it will take a while.

Science and research can be pretty political (something you know firsthand).

re: #87 reine.de.tout

IQs can serve as predictors of some things (like scholastic achievement or income) but not others, like you say. It’s a naturalistic fallacy to necessarily derive worth from “natural” characteristics, such as appearance or intelligence. But both still can have their value.

re: #90 researchok

I hope so, but I have to admit I’ believe it will take a while.

Science and research can be pretty political (something you know firsthand).

I hope so too.

The thing about IQ - people pick up on it, and say, “AHA! My IQ is higher! I’m better than you!”

Which isn’t necessarily true, at least not true based on the measure of IQ alone.

And that - befuddles me.

It’s my belief that anything we have, IQ, or physicaly beauty, or whatever - is a gift we’ve received from God. And not to be used to as an indication of superiority or “better than” anyone else; humility is what’s called for with those sorts of gifts. And we just too often don’t see the humility.

re: #91 Sergey Romanov

IQs can serve as predictors of some things (like scholastic achievement or income) but not others, like you say. It’s a naturalistic fallacy to necessarily derive worth from “natural” characteristics, such as appearance or intelligence. But both still can have their value.

Yep, what you said. That’s what I was trying to say, you did it MUCH better.
Must have a higher IQ.
:-)
But I’m very happy to have access to your superior thoughts.

re: #91 Sergey Romanov

IQs can serve as predictors of some things (like scholastic achievement or income) but not others, like you say. It’s a naturalistic fallacy to necessarily derive worth from “natural” characteristics, such as appearance or intelligence. But both still can have their value.

Right.

The IQ controversy exits simply because it is the only test in wide usage today and there is no alternative on the horizon.

If the IQ test were to be introduced today it would be roundly rejected. However, social scientists decades ago embraced the notion that intelligence can be measured (still a controversial idea).

The truth is, we aren’t really sure what exactly IQ measures. There is value to the test- we just aren’t sure what it all means.

re: #93 reine.de.tout

Yep, what you said. That’s what I was trying to say, you did it MUCH better.
Must have a higher IQ.
:-)
But I’m very happy to have access to your superior thoughts.

My thoughts are literally superior because I’m taller than you! :P

// not really

re: #91 Sergey Romanov

IQs can serve as predictors of some things (like scholastic achievement or income) but not others, like you say. It’s a naturalistic fallacy to necessarily derive worth from “natural” characteristics, such as appearance or intelligence. But both still can have their value.

I’ll add:
scholastic achievement and income are nice.
But it’s quite possible to have a full and eventful and successful life without them.

re: #96 reine.de.tout

I’ll add:
scholastic achievement and income are nice.
But it’s quite possible to have a full and eventful and successful life without them.

AHA! now we are talking about culture- which is where most of the conversation ought to be.

Values, principles, ideas…

re: #97 researchok

AHA! now we are talking about culture- which is where most of the conversation ought to be.

Values, principles, ideas…

Yes.
General culture, as well as family culture.

re: #98 reine.de.tout

Yes.
General culture, as well as family culture.

On that we are in complete agreement.

Culture determines the success of families, communities, nations.

Not PC, but true.

re: #99 researchok

And good pizza helps too.

re: #100 researchok

And good pizza helps too.

No pineapple!

re: #101 reine.de.tout

No pineapple!

Of course.

You are indeed a cultured woman.

re: #99 researchok

Much less non-PC than many other topics though, including the one which have discussed. Yep, culture is an overriding factor. And no, not all cultures are equal, although “equal” is an admittedly subjective descriptor here.

I’d kill for a piece of pizza right now, pineapple and all. (DAMN LOW-CARB DIETS!)

re: #104 shropshire_slasher

Hey! Civil discourse!

/

re: #103 Sergey Romanov

Much less non-PC than many other topics though, including the one which have discussed. Yep, culture is an overriding factor. And no, not all cultures are equal, although “equal” is an admittedly subjective descriptor here.

Oh man, have you hit the nail on the head…

Seriously.

Be careful of the PC police. Social scientists have paid the price (I know first hand) big time.

When I was writing my own stuff, I once noted that cultures in which heroes take lives are very different than cultures in which heroes save lives caused me all kinds of grief. I didn’t back down and became a target fir quite a while.

re: #105 Sergey Romanov

Hey! Civil discourse!

/

In keeping with the theme, let me just say that pineapple on pizza was a Hitler favorite.
//

re: #105 Sergey Romanov

No, you don’t understand, I really would kill…

/

re: #87 reine.de.tout

We need everybody. There’s a lifestyle and work needs to suit all sorts of people.

“Well, the world needs ditch-diggers too.”
-Judge Smails, Caddyshack

re: #106 researchok

There can be quite a lot of pitfalls in discourse about culture, so it’s necessary to find the balance: not to engage in unsubstantiated overgeneralizations (which blend right into racism) as well as not to water it down completely so it becomes useless (and problematic issues are simply swept under the rug). I would say PC serves as a counterbalance to overgeneralization and it is in fact a positive development in light of recent historical experience, just not when it’s taken too far. And no, I can’t define how far is “too far”. I guess everybody decides for themselves.

re: #107 researchok

In keeping with the theme, let me just say that pineapple on pizza was a Hitler favorite.
//

Hitler hates pineapple…

re: #110 Sergey Romanov

There can be quite a lot of pitfalls in discourse about culture, so it’s necessary to find the balance: not to engage in unsubstantiated overgeneralizations (which blend right into racism) as well as not to water it down completely so it becomes useless (and problematic issues are simply swept under the rug). I would say PC serves as a counterbalance to overgeneralization and it is in fact a positive development in light of recent historical experience, just not when it’s taken too far. And no, I can’t define how far is “too far”. I guess everybody decides for themselves.

Welcome to my world.

re: #84 Sergey Romanov

Personally, I’m agnostic on the topic. Everyone agrees that genes play a role, the disagreement is between, approximately speaking, whether it’s say 20% or 80% (the latter being Arthur Jensen’s estimate IIRC). The politics of many researchers in the “genes dominate” camp makes me wonder if their research is tainted. On the other hand, the topic is so politically incorrect (and in this case it’s not just a label) that certain results are likely to set off a storm of criticism and condemnation regardless of their validity, and this also influences what kind of researchers deal with the issue at all.

I don’t believe that’s the case. I find the “we’re all the same!” crowd to be incredibly annoying. I think they’re the cousins of the “I ain’t from no damn monkey!” crowd.

re: #110 Sergey Romanov

There can be quite a lot of pitfalls in discourse about culture, so it’s necessary to find the balance: not to engage in unsubstantiated overgeneralizations (which blend right into racism) as well as not to water it down completely so it becomes useless (and problematic issues are simply swept under the rug). I would say PC serves as a counterbalance to overgeneralization and it is in fact a positive development in light of recent historical experience, just not when it’s taken too far. And no, I can’t define how far is “too far”. I guess everybody decides for themselves.

Agreed.

I will say this - I have found when I can state something factually, without any sense of “superiority”, and with an appropriate sense of humility, without any sort of judgment as to the information, I can usually stay out of PC trouble.

re: #111 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hitler hates pineapple…

That was good!

re: #113 RogueOne

Well, I mean scientists. Obviously among laymen you will find a full spectrum from 0% to 102%. ;)

I think that people are a product of their environment, not genetics (other, than of course Human Race, etc…)

re: #117 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I think that people are a product of their environment, not genetics (other, than of course Human Race, etc…)

Why not both?

re: #117 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I think that people are a product of their environment, not genetics (other, than of course Human Race, etc…)

Wishful thinking, I ‘m afraid.

We are different and that has served us well. The gene pool is improving and evolvingbecause of those differences.

I don’t think there is any reason for looking at how IQ allegedly correlates with race other than bigotry. This sort of thing is obsessed over by people who want to justify prejudice against individuals on the basis of claims about their race- no one else is interested.

Even if there was a correlation between IQ and race, it wouldn’t tell you a thing about any given individual. But it would be used by bigots as though it did.

re: #118 Sergey Romanov
re: #119 researchok

You will be hard pressed to show me that genetically, the Scottish are more prone to be sots than Irishmen who are more than Brits because of genetics.

Germans are not genetically better engineers than Poles.

The environment creates these things.

Of course all Scots are vicious drunks. (Jimmah!)

re: #120 Jimmah

I don’t think there is any reason for looking at how IQ allegedly correlates with race other than bigotry. This sort of thing is obsessed over by people who want to justify prejudice against individuals on the basis of claims about their race- no one else is interested.

Even if there was a correlation between IQ and race, it wouldn’t tell you a thing about any given individual. But it would be used by bigots as though it did.

I think the IQ/race correlation only has always been on thin ice. To make that connection as the only value of IQ is bigoted, indeed.

The real IQ debate is whether or not the test is an accurate predictor of intelligence and/or success.

See my 94

Uh, gang—unless you can actually define an individual test subject’s race genetically, there is no issue here. Race is a concept that became obsolete with the invention of the paved road sailing ship. Anthropologists have essentially dismissed it since WWII. (There are also historical, non-scientific forces behind that shift.)

re: #123 Decatur Deb

What’s a “paved road sailing ship”?
/

So, you’re saying that “Guns Germs and Steel” have been exported?

(I loved that book)

re: #121 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

re: #119 researchok

You will be hard pressed to show me that genetically, the Scottish are more prone to be sots than Irishmen who are more than Brits because of genetics.

Germans are not genetically better engineers than Poles.

The environment creates these things.

Of course all Scots are vicious drunks. (Jimmah!)

Yes, environment is a major contributor, in my opinion. In fact, I fully believe environment is the major predictor.

Nevertheless, there are genetic differences. For example, we select mates in no small measure predicated on genetics (same is true in the animal kingdom).

re: #121 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Of course all Scots are vicious drunks. (Jimmah!)

Vicious sheepstealing drunks, if you don’t mind ;)

re: #126 Jimmah

Vicious sheepstealinghumping drunks, if you don’t mind ;)

re: #124 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What’s a “paved road sailing ship”?
/

So, you’re saying that “Guns Germs and Steel” have been exported?

(I loved that book)

PIMF “and”. Sometimes editing a comment makes it worse. Because there is almost no isolated reproducing population of Americans with unmixed African genetic material, all correlations of traits/races gets undoable very quickly. Vanessa Williams is “Black” because Black is a political/sociological construct.

re: #92 reine.de.tout

I hope so too.

The thing about IQ - people pick up on it, and say, “AHA! My IQ is higher! I’m better than you!”

Which isn’t necessarily true, at least not true based on the measure of IQ alone.

And that - befuddles me.

It’s my belief that anything we have, IQ, or physicaly beauty, or whatever - is a gift we’ve received from God. And not to be used to as an indication of superiority or “better than” anyone else; humility is what’s called for with those sorts of gifts. And we just too often don’t see the humility.

Morning all. :)

I agree wholeheartedly with all of your comments about ‘IQ’ Similarly not from a scientific viewpoint but from observation though from different experience and areas of observation.

IQ tests measure a particular type of intelligence and cognitive function which is hardly all that exists and all that is important. Being ‘IQ smart’ means just that your ‘smart’ within the confines of what IQ tests measures and while it can be a factor in someones success the measurement of what is ‘success’ has it’s own subjective value which is based a lot in what the overall culture values as success. So for example which I saw a lot at school you have someone with a very high IQ and was academically successful but struggled with things like financial success or social success.

I spent years teaching a physical sport. Traditional IQ or how smart someone appeared to be had very little with success in that realm. I could relate numerous stories of very ‘successful’ and smart people in the corporate realm (even a few CEO’s of multinational and well known companies) who just completely sucked when it came to comprehending their own body mechanics, real world physics and figuring out how to get it to work properly. If that sort of intelligence or cultural success was based on those values they would fail miserably.

re: #125 researchok

Okay. My reasoning on this is anecdotal, certainly, but here’s what I think.

Take a newborn child from the most backward society in the world and drop them in the most advanced society with a caring nurturing family.

That child will be indistinguishable (other than perhaps appearance) than the others.

My family is backwoods dumb hicks. The generation past us (my kids, and nieces and nephews) are well educated and snobby little jerks.

Such is evolution. Sigh.

re: #127 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sheephumpers? - nah - that would be the English, who constitute 90% of the market we supply.

re: #120 Jimmah

I don’t think there is any reason for looking at how IQ allegedly correlates with race other than bigotry.

While you’re right about its usage by the bigots, this by itself is not enough to stop the research. There are two issues here. One is simply noticing the correlation. This is in itself is hardly bigoted. It’s simply in the data. To take the most charged example, the existence of the black-white average IQ gap is not even slightly controversial. Scientists/researchers of all stripes discuss it. I would be hard to argue that they’re being racist just for noticing it.

What is mightily controversial is how it is to be explained. So the causal explanation is the second issue. Here racism can certainly come into play. But I disagree that simply probing the issue is racism. There is an analogy someone made - what if there was a paper that compared greediness of “races”, etc. - wouldn’t the fact of the comparison be racist by itself? But there is no analogy here since intelligence is a separate, established field of study.

Oops! To work. Gosh… I’ll read this later. Y’all keep saying smart things that I may or may not agree with.

re: #130 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Okay. My reasoning on this is anecdotal, certainly, but here’s what I think.

Take a newborn child from the most backward society in the world and drop them in the most advanced society with a caring nurturing family.

That child will be indistinguishable (other than perhaps appearance) than the others.

My family is backwoods dumb hicks. The generation past us (my kids, and nieces and nephews) are well educated and snobby little jerks.

Such is evolution. Sigh.

You are right on the money when you note

Take a newborn child from the most backward society in the world and drop them in the most advanced society with a caring nurturing family.

That child will be indistinguishable (other than perhaps appearance) than the others.

That is the key- not the society (though clearly that is influential) but a culture that emphasizes values, principles and ideas will trump any other environment, in my opinion.

Stand-up comedian, Robert Townsend had a great bit on this subject in his routine.

Rich snobby accent..

“Father? Father? Tell us again about how you used to be a Ni**er. How you ate the government cheese. Please, oh, please father. Do tell us. How we love to hear that story.”

Product of environment.

re: #128 Decatur Deb

PIMF “and”. Sometimes editing a comment makes it worse. Because there is almost no isolated reproducing population of Americans with unmixed African genetic material, all correlations of traits/races gets undoable very quickly. Vanessa Williams is “Black” because Black is a political/sociological construct.

but Vanessa Williams is also who she is based on her genetics. If she weren’t genetically gorgeous we would have never heard of her.

re: #134 researchok

I only wrote that to make sure the assumption that the child would be treated like an outcast to allow the society to kick in.

re: #136 RogueOne

but Vanessa Williams is also who she is based on her genetics. If she weren’t genetically gorgeous we would have never heard of her.

Caveat- her ‘gorgeous’ is dictated by our culture.

re: #137 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I only wrote that to make sure the assumption that the child would be treated like an outcast to allow the society to kick in.

Understood.

It looks like we’re discussing IQ—which no one quite understands, related to genetic races—which do not quite exist. If it’s hard to get serious grants to do such studies, it’s probably not an academic conspiracy.

re: #132 Sergey Romanov

I guess I’m influenced by the calibre of discussion that I’ve seen elsewhere on the net about intelligence and race, and those who bang on about about it. IQ is of course a controversial indicator of this vaguely defined attribute.

re: #138 researchok

Caveat- her ‘gorgeous’ is dictated by our culture.

I was waiting for that, it’s a chicken-egg question. Which came first those genes or the demand for those genes.

re: #138 researchok

Caveat- her ‘gorgeous’ is dictated by our culture.

I’d like a grant to compare IQ and hottieness. I’ll start with Elizabeth Warren.

re: #140 Decatur Deb

It looks like we’re discussing IQ—which no one quite understands, related to genetic races—which do not quite exist. If it’s hard to get serious grants to do such studies, it’s probably not an academic conspiracy.

There is some of that, I’m afraid.

Academics is as political anything else.

Still, the real problem reflects an age old issue- the misuse of the information.

We can all agree environment is the primary influence but that message can be easily lost.

re: #143 Decatur Deb

I’d like a grant to compare IQ and hottieness. I’ll start with Elizabeth Warren.

I’ll see you Elizabeth Warren and raise you Jenny McCarthy.

re: #143 Decatur Deb

I’d like a grant to compare IQ and hottieness. I’ll start with Elizabeth Warren.

Isabella Rosselinni wins.

re: #143 Decatur Deb

Megyn Kelly. Evil or stupid?

/

re: #142 RogueOne

I was waiting for that, it’s a chicken-egg question. Which came first those genes or the demand for those genes.

Not so simple.

In some societies what we call plain is considered beautiful.

Fascinating ideas all around.

re: #147 Sergey Romanov

Megyn Kelly. Evil or stupid?

/

Depends.

In the right outfit, I don’t care.
//

re: #136 RogueOne

but Vanessa Williams is also who she is based on her genetics. If she weren’t genetically gorgeous we would have never heard of her.

Sure but what people consider genetically gorgeous is largely determined by cultural values.
There has been research done on the genetics of attraction hip ratios, facial symetry, and whatnot which appear to be universial but those factors within are culture are placed within other more superficial factors of what is culturally considered gorgeous.

re: #150 Jadespring

bleh I need more coffee. I can’t write this morning….

re: #140 Decatur Deb

It looks like we’re discussing IQ—which no one quite understands, related to genetic races—which do not quite exist. If it’s hard to get serious grants to do such studies, it’s probably not an academic conspiracy.

Absolutely. Anyone who’s looking for truth about the ‘races’ needs to first describe what a race is, which nobody can successfully do.

Furthermore, when talking about ‘genetics’, people are usually speaking of genetics as a genotype, but genetics make themselves known in individuals only in phenotype; you might have the gene ‘for’ something (really a gene promoting it) but that gene never gets activated due to the environment (including the natal environment) you live in.

I mean, a person is going to wind up very phenotypically different if he’s the seventh child born from a woman or the first child, even with the exact same genetics. There’s a lot of research to suggest birth order is one of the stronger influencers of sexuality.

It’s all very fascinating, but the first thing that can easily be seen is that race is a completely bogus concept. And anyone who’s worked for awhile out in the world can see that IQ is nearly useless as a measure of anything.

re: #147 Sergey Romanov

Megyn Kelly. Evil or stupid?

/

You could probably define her Stupid-Evil scale with a slider. As it moves towards one value, the other diminishes. Here in the South, they call that the “Bless Her Heart” effect.

re: #94 researchok

The truth is, we aren’t really sure what exactly IQ measures. There is value to the test- we just aren’t sure what it all means.

I don’t understand that, coming in late here.

It measures the ability to solve problems of certain types, relevant to western society. Certainly one could have an “IQ” test designed for a hunter gatherer society and all of us here would fail miserably, but that doesn’t mean the normal measurement concept is irrelevant to us.

Some societies/cultures do not teach that measured process as we do, and that would mean that they score lower and are less well equipped, on the whole, to function in the society the IQ test was designed for.

However having said that, it is worth remembering that by definition the median IQ is 100, meaning that 50% are “smarter” than the other 50% and if another group’s median is a few point lower than another, it still means that some 40+% of their group will be smarter than 50% of the base group.

re: #150 Jadespring

Yeah. The genes of the French didn’t change in any significant way between the age where Rubenesque women were considered the most gorgeous around and the age where the gamine waif-look was considered the most beautiful.

Kirk and Spock Don’t Need This Fascist Groove Thing:

chores - brb

re: #153 Decatur Deb

You could probably define her Stupid-Evil scale with a slider. As it moves towards one value, the other diminishes. Here in the South, they call that the “Bless Her Heart” effect.

Sure, but how does that related to hotness, if at all? ;)

re: #154 Naso Tang

But that’s the point; if all you’re measuring is success on a certain number of tasks, what’s that actually say about the person? Not a hell of a lot. Certainly doesn’t say how they’d perform on a novel task.

A hell of a lot of abso-fucking-lutely disastrous ideas have been thought up with people with very ‘high IQs’.

This is why the scientific method is such an awesome thing; it grounds logic in empirical reality.

re: #154 Naso Tang

I don’t understand that, coming in late here.

It measures the ability to solve problems of certain types, relevant to western society. Certainly one could have an “IQ” test designed for a hunter gatherer society and all of us here would fail miserably, but that doesn’t mean the normal measurement concept is irrelevant to us.

Some societies/cultures do not teach that measured process as we do, and that would mean that they score lower and are less well equipped, on the whole, to function in the society the IQ test was designed for.

However having said that, it is worth remembering that by definition the median IQ is 100, meaning that 50% are “smarter” than the other 50% and if another group’s median is a few point lower than another, it still means that some 40+% of their group will be smarter than 50% of the base group.

Some truth there, but in the end, we still don’t know what exactly IQ measures. There are some who say IQ measures problem solving but that is not gospel. People can test low and yet be very successful and Mensa is full of postal clerks.

If an IQ type test were to be proposed today it would be roundly rejected (both Wechsler and Stanford Benet) because of vagueness and lack of clarity in real world interpretation

The MMPI is a far more interesting test and worthy of discussion.

And on that happy note, I bid you all adieu.

Later.

re: #158 Obdicut

But that’s the point; if all you’re measuring is success on a certain number of tasks, what’s that actually say about the person? Not a hell of a lot. Certainly doesn’t say how they’d perform on a novel task.

Right- it’s a snapshot in a controlled environment with limited options.

And we haven’t begun to talk about the creativity factor.

Morning all!

How is everyone?

re: #155 Obdicut

Yeah. The genes of the French didn’t change in any significant way between the age where Rubenesque women were considered the most gorgeous around and the age where the gamine waif-look was considered the most beautiful.

Yes that is a great example.

There are tons of course. Just look at the past 100 years of North American culture and you can see how it’s changed too.

It reminds me of some of my anthropology studies. Too long ago to remember specifics but in the case of one group, saggy and stringy boobs are considered more beautiful and gorgeous because they reflect the women’s success and fertility in having lots of children. Or cultures that consider bushy and even mono brows to be beautiful.

re: #22 Buck

Back at the end of august I posted here about my father and how he had just been given three months to live. Well we were given a little over five months. He passed away easily tonight, while I held his hand and told him what a great job he had done. How everyone was taken care of.

He had a brain tumor, so he didn’t really hear me or understand the words. However he closed his eyes and took his last breath.

Goodnight.

I’m so sorry for your loss.

I recently read this article and it has this bit:

The anthropologist R. L. Veinberg showed in a highly detailed comparative study of the brain that “Jews belong to those peoples with comparatively small brains” that do not conform to either “normal” or “typical” human brains. The structural composition of the Jewish brain was closer to that of the less developed peoples (as opposed to the Slavs, who possessed larger-sized brains) and tended to weigh less than that of the more “civilized” peoples.68

68 R. L. Veinberg, “K izucheniiu o forme mozga cheloveka,” Russkii antropologicheskii zhurnal, no. 4 (1902): 1–4, 12 , 20–21 .

(Note, it’s a neutral description of the alleged findings, the author of the article does not endorse them as valid.) This of course immediately reminded me of how some of the researchers in the “genes dominate” camp think that they have shown the correlation between brain size and intelligence on one hand, and very high Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence on the other. Statistics, such a wonderful thing, eh.

re: #157 Sergey Romanov

Sure, but how does that related to hotness, if at all? ;)

She’d probably look hotter if Fox hired some brunettes for contrast.

By a fluke I was once on a team that had to review training films that the Army planned to buy for it’s vast child-care system. By far the best film, in my arena, was from a producer in Minnesota. Our choice was rejected based on the principle that it “did not reflect the realities of the Army family environment”. When I reviewed it, I realized that the film shot in Minnesota child care facilities not only had no Blacks or Hispanics—it had only two brunette children.

re: #166 Decatur Deb

PIMF again: “its”.

re: #158 Obdicut

But that’s the point; if all you’re measuring is success on a certain number of tasks, what’s that actually say about the person? Not a hell of a lot. Certainly doesn’t say how they’d perform on a novel task.

I does, statistically, and it is not a measure for a specific novel task, it is a measure of the ability to apply a broad set of knowledge to novel tasks. Of course that doesn’t preclude someone from being very good in some specific area which can be admired.

The simplest illustration, I think, of the relevance of IQ is the predictor of whether or not someone is likely to be able to earn an undergraduate college degree or higher, and it is a good predictor of that.

Heh— just reminded myself of one of my favorite examples of phenotype vs. genotype distinction:

The San (Bushmen) women have, in general, few few periods throughout their adult life, an average of between ten and twenty. The reason for this could be described as ‘genetic’, and yet, the reason for this is also entirely environmental.

First of all, due to their lower nutritional level than Western women, they achieve reproductive fertility in their late teens, when they’re generally already sexually active.

Instead of breast-feeding children in large single means, San women continually breast-feed them throughout the day in small amounts. They also continue to breast-feed children to about the age of five.

Breast-feeding introduces hormones into the woman’s system which suppresses ovulation.

So, you can have a San woman with the exact same reproductive genetics as a German woman, and yet you’ll observe massive differences. And if you switched those women, you’d observe the same differences, since the difference is not genetic, it is phenotypic.

And yet this gets reported all the time by stupid science writers as “Bushmen women evolved to have fewer pregnancies!”

Here’s an official APA statement on intelligence created in the light of the Bell Curve controversy:

[Link: citeseerx.ist.psu.edu…]

Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns.

Written by researchers from both camps, it’s more or less definitive in the field as it was in 1995 (I guess it’s a bit outdated by now).

re: #168 Naso Tang

I does, statistically, and it is not a measure for a specific novel task, it is a measure of the ability to apply a broad set of knowledge to novel tasks.

No, it’s not. Can you name an IQ test which is a measure of that ability to apply knowledge to novel tasks, please?

I’m thinking some folks here will love this piece:

Daily Show: Oliver - Jewish Speaker of Texas State House

John Oliver celebrates a new high holiday with the people of Texas after a Jewish Republican is re-elected.

re: #170 Sergey Romanov

And in a more readable format:

[Link: www.lrainc.com…]

In this brief report, we cannot do full justice to even one such approach. Rather than trying to do so, we focus here on a limited and rather specific set of questions:
What are the significant conceptualizations of intelligence at this time? (Section I)
What do intelligence test scores mean, what do they predict, and how well do they predict it? (Section II)
Why do individuals differ in intelligence, and especially in their scores on intelligence tests? Our discussion of these questions implicates both genetic factors (Section III) and environmental factors (Section IV).
Do various ethnic groups display different patterns of performance on intelligence tests, and if so what might explain those differences? (Section V)
What significant scientific issues are presently unresolved? (Section VI)

IQ?

I love this subject.

I have an IQ that is respectable, but not off the charts. Yet there are a lot of areas in which I wish I was more proficient. Perhaps that is in itself a sign of intelligence. I can recognize my deficiencies.

I realize the need for standardized testing, but I dont’ think it serves the individual well at all.

I’m also highly creative, and I don’t think I’ve ever been tested for it—or know if there is a test for creativity.

re: #170 Sergey Romanov

Here’s an official APA statement on intelligence created in the light of the Bell Curve controversy:

[Link: citeseerx.ist.psu.edu…]

Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns.

Written by researchers from both camps, it’s more or less definitive in the field as it was in 1995 (I guess it’s a bit outdated by now).

I’ll look more at that later, but I’m already struck by their discussion of Hispanic and Black. Love to see how they controlled those definitions.

re: #171 Obdicut

No, it’s not. Can you name an IQ test which is a measure of that ability to apply knowledge to novel tasks, please?

re: #171 Obdicut

No, it’s not. Can you name an IQ test which is a measure of that ability to apply knowledge to novel tasks, please?

or apply knowledge in a novel way to solve tasks?

re: #173 Sergey Romanov

One of my favorite papers— which I cannot for the life of me recall at the moment— described the difference between measured intelligence in people when they were competing and when they were cooperating.

Basically, they found that some people who did quite well in competitive intelligence— playing a zero-sum game where their aim was to get all the marbles— were significantly less good at systems where cooperation was the goal, like building a sustained trust system, or verifying a code’s accuracy, etc.

Yet another wrinkle.

How to build a progressive tea party…on twitter

Great story on how people pissed off by corporate tax cuts took action. Methinks this will be the next American movement.

re: #178 Obdicut

One of my favorite papers— which I cannot for the life of me recall at the moment— described the difference between measured intelligence in people when they were competing and when they were cooperating.

Basically, they found that some people who did quite well in competitive intelligence— playing a zero-sum game where their aim was to get all the marbles— were significantly less good at systems where cooperation was the goal, like building a sustained trust system, or verifying a code’s accuracy, etc.

Yet another wrinkle.

That would probably be considered a Male-Female thing. HAH!

Good speech by Haley Barbour at CPAC.

Apart from the content.

re: #22 Buck

Back at the end of august I posted here about my father and how he had just been given three months to live. Well we were given a little over five months. He passed away easily tonight, while I held his hand and told him what a great job he had done. How everyone was taken care of.

He had a brain tumor, so he didn’t really hear me or understand the words. However he closed his eyes and took his last breath.

Goodnight.

((((Buck)))) I know how hard that is and my heart breaks for you. Please take care of yourself now.

IQ?
Mine is 167.
/Inside joke

re: #178 Obdicut

One of my favorite papers— which I cannot for the life of me recall at the moment— described the difference between measured intelligence in people when they were competing and when they were cooperating.

Basically, they found that some people who did quite well in competitive intelligence— playing a zero-sum game where their aim was to get all the marbles— were significantly less good at systems where cooperation was the goal, like building a sustained trust system, or verifying a code’s accuracy, etc.

Yet another wrinkle.

Hee. I don’t need a paper to show me how there is truth to the findings.
Years of working in groups both political and non-political has given me enough observational evidence to draw the same conclusions.

re: #177 ggt

or apply knowledge in a novel way to solve tasks?

Hell, just coming up with a ‘novel’ task is incredibly freaking hard.

re: #185 Obdicut

Hell, just coming up with a ‘novel’ task is incredibly freaking hard.

What would you consider a novel task?

re: #160 researchok

Some truth there, but in the end, we still don’t know what exactly IQ measures. There are some who say IQ measures problem solving but that is not gospel. People can test low and yet be very successful and Mensa is full of postal clerks.

If an IQ type test were to be proposed today it would be roundly rejected (both Wechsler and Stanford Benet) because of vagueness and lack of clarity in real world interpretation

The MMPI is a far more interesting test and worthy of discussion.

And on that happy note, I bid you all adieu.

Later.

The last place I worked had written tests for most jobs, and when interviewing, one was allowed to hire from those who had a grade in the 5 top grade ranges.

For jobs where a skill was required (like typing, or shorthand which is no longer used), there was an additional component of a skills test.

Just before I retired, the process was changed a bit. For certain jobs which had a mix of public contact, or mainly office work with little public contact (like a typist, or clerk), a 3rd test component was added - a personality assessment. And they did away with the requirement that you choose from the top range of grades on the written test.

What you were able to do was look at the job, and use the applicants’ grades as a guide to what you needed in that job.

If the job required little typing, but a LOT of public contact, you would choose to interview those with higher scores on the personality assessment - while everybody knows basic courtesy, some people simply have a higher level of patience with dealing with idiots than others.

If the job required a lot of typing and decision-making, but little public contact, you would choose to interview those with higher grades in the typing and written portions of the test.

I had a clerical job I needed to fill that required some typing and a GREAT deal of public contact, phone and in-person. I interviewed and selected from the group that had fair to high typing skills, and very high scores on the personality assessment and I basically ignored the written grades.

I will say that this worked beautifully. I got the EXACT person I needed for the job, she was incredibly good with the people who wandered into our office or called on the phone.

The point of this is that the written test, the “IQ” part, played little into the hiring decision. This person was the best person for this job based on factors OTHER THAN IQ. Which is why IQ as a measure is not necessarily a bad thing to have; but it needs to be remembered that it is simply a measure of one aspect of a person, and as such, should never be used as the be-all, end-all in assessing a person’s ability to perform a job (or in judging a person in any other way, as well)

re: #91 Sergey Romanov

IQs can serve as predictors of some things (like scholastic achievement or income) but not others, like you say. It’s a naturalistic fallacy to necessarily derive worth from “natural” characteristics, such as appearance or intelligence. But both still can have their value.

Interestingly, (at least according to this study), Self-Discipline Outdoes IQ
in Predicting Academic Performance of Adolescents

Self-discipline measured in the fall accounted for more than twice as much variance as IQ in final grades,…..

re: #22 Buck

My condolences to you and yours.

re: #188 Talking Point Detective

Interestingly, (at least according to this study), Self-Discipline Outdoes IQ
in Predicting Academic Performance of Adolescents

Agree with you, based on nothing more than my observations of people over the years.

And a person’s self-discipline is part of general culture, and family culture.

re: #183 Varek Raith

IQ?
Mine is 167.
/Inside joke

And do you play 3-D chess in a 2-D world?

re: #174 ggt

I realize the need for standardized testing, but I dont’ think it serves the individual well at all.

By its very nature, norm-referenced standardized testing only measures a given individual by comparing them to others. Basically, that is useless to an educator, and refers back to the insane notion that education is primarily viewed as a competitive process.

Criterion referenced testing is of some use. As a teacher, at least a criterion referenced test tells me what gaps exist in a student’s knowledge.

Reality bites.

Obama Administration: Not Everybody Should Own A Home

The Administration believes that we must continue to take the necessary steps to ensure that Americans have access to an adequate range of affordable housing options. This does not mean all Americans should become homeowners. Instead, we should make sure that all Americans who have the credit history, financial capacity, and desire to own a home have the opportunity to take that step. At the same time, we should ensure that there are a range of affordable options for the 100 million Americans who rent, whether they do so by choice or necessity.

re: #186 Jadespring

What would you consider a novel task?

Well, it depends on the individual, is the problem. What’s novel to one person might not be novel to another. One form of ‘novel’ task that’s sometimes provided is a sentence in a foreign language that’s unknown to the person and a dictionary, and questions about the rules of grammar. This isn’t a ‘right/wrong’ kind of test but whether they’ve come up with a consistent grammar, since any sentence can actually have multiple possible grammars.

Another similar test is figuring out what the possible operators would be in mathematical equation, I.e 9%4$6&4&4%3&5=3000, but only if they hadn’t been presented with such problems before, and only if they had some basic level of mathematical knowledge so that they’d have some sort of tool to approach it. Even then, you’re judging as much on how they set up their approach as you are to a correct answer. you can brute-force solve that by simply trying out every possible equation, so some sort of time limit has to be in place.

So, ‘novel’ness depends on ‘known’ness, which is why it’s very, very hard to claim any particular test predicts performance on novel tasks.

re: #188 Talking Point Detective

Interestingly, (at least according to this study), Self-Discipline Outdoes IQ
in Predicting Academic Performance of Adolescents

This.

I can put myself up as a perfect example. When I was in school way back when we did IQ tests. I tested really high, in the upper most percentiles. Didn’t matter a whit in terms of academics success unless I actually applied myself. All it really was a predictor of is what I could do. Had to do it though and there were countless other people who tested lower on the test but performance wise out did me and others because they worked harder then I did.

re: #185 Obdicut

Hell, just coming up with a ‘novel’ task is incredibly freaking hard.

right. I was thinking more that we need innovators. People who can find new ways to solve existing problems.

If we could test for that ability … .

re: #196 ggt

right. I was thinking more that we need innovators. People who can find new ways to solve existing problems.

If we could test for that ability …

Heh. only a brilliant innovator could design such a test in the first place.

I think it’ll take AI.

re: #171 Obdicut

No, it’s not. Can you name an IQ test which is a measure of that ability to apply knowledge to novel tasks, please?

You seem to want to argue on the basis of exceptions.

I claim, to use one common example, that obtaining a college degree, or a PHD, is an example of applying knowledge (and gaining knowledge) to novel tasks. One “IQ” test that is a good predictor of that is SAT scores.

re: #190 reine.de.tout

Agree with you, based on nothing more than my observations of people over the years.

And a person’s self-discipline is part of general culture, and family culture.

My belief, which has been borne out by a lot of research, is that meta-cognition is a very important variable that influences one’s academic performance. Essentially, it means self-knowledge, or knowledge about the process by which you learn; it comprises the executive functions of the process - knowledge of what enables you as an individual to learn well, knowledge of what strategies you can use to learn, the ability to evaluate your own learning and to adopt new strategies to compensate for weaknesses and take advantage of strengths.

My overall focus as an educator is to help students become more meta-cognitive in their learning processes. It is amazing how much of the underlying structures of our educational system actually work to undermine a student’s meta-cognitive processes. For example, the very notion of how students get evaluated, where they pass over the responsibility of evaluation to their teachers - essentially looking at evaluation as a black box; they submit work and it gets evaluated in some invisible process and then returned.

re: #196 ggt

right. I was thinking more that we need innovators. People who can find new ways to solve existing problems.

If we could test for that ability …

OR, people who can use existing knowledge to develop new knowledge.

This is one of the areas where education in math and science is so important.

Current levels of knowledge were BUILT ON previous discoveries and knowledge.
And current levels will be BUILT UPON by those who have a good background and know what it is they’re looking at and why it’s different from what’s already known.

It’s just how it is.

re: #188 Talking Point Detective

Note this section in the APA report:

Caste-like Minorities. Most discussions of this issue treat Black/ White differences as aspects of a uniquely “American Dilemma” (Myriad, 1944). The fact is, however, that comparably disadvantaged groups exist in many countries: the Maori in New Zealand, scheduled castes (“untouchables”) in India, non-European Jews in Israel, the Burakumin in Japan. All these are “caste-like” (Ogbu, 1978) or “involuntary” (Ogbu, 1994) minorities. John Ogbu distinguishes this status from that of “autonomous” minorities who are not politically or economically subordinated (like Amish or Mormons in the U.S.), and from that of “immigrant” or “voluntary” minorities who initially came to their new homes with positive expectations. Immigrant minorities expect their situations to improve; they tend to compare themselves favorably with peers in the old country, not unfavorably with members of the dominant majority. In contrast, to be born into a caste-like minority is to grow up firmly convinced that one’s life will eventually be restricted to a small and poorly-rewarded set of social roles.

Distinctions of caste are not always linked to perceptions of race. In some countries lower and upper caste groups differ by appearance and are assumed to be racially distinct; in others they are not. The social and educational consequences are the same in both cases. All over the world, the children of castelike minorities do less well in school than upper-caste children and drop out sooner. Where there are data, they have usuallv been found to have lower test scores as well.

In explaining these findings, Ogbu (1978) argues that the children of caste-like minorities do not have “effort optimism,” i.e., the conviction that hard work (especially hard schoolwork) and serious commitment on their part will actually be rewarded. As a result they ignore or reject the forms of learning that are offered in school. Indeed they may practice a sort of cultural inversion, deliberately rejecting certain behaviors (such as academic achievement or other forms of “acting white”) that are seen as characteristic of the dominant group. While the extent to which the attitudes described by Ogbu (1978, 1994) are responsible for African-American test scores and school achievement has not been empirically established, it does seem that familiar problems can take on quite a different look when they are viewed from an international perspective.

re: #196 ggt

right. I was thinking more that we need innovators. People who can find new ways to solve existing problems.

If we could test for that ability …

Oh I wish I could remember where I saw it. It was a creativity test of sorts. It asked one question. “List as many uses as you can for a paper clip.”

re: #197 Obdicut

Heh. only a brilliant innovator could design such a test in the first place.

De Bono did. He called it Lateral Thinking.

re: #198 Naso Tang

You seem to want to argue on the basis of exceptions.

I claim, to use one common example, that obtaining a college degree, or a PHD, is an example of applying knowledge (and gaining knowledge) to novel tasks. One “IQ” test that is a good predictor of that is SAT scores.

Oh, well, no, those really aren’t novel tasks, especially when compared to SAT scores. We’re just talking about vastly different things.

I also am not sure SAT scores are actually strongly correlated with getting college degrees/PhDs, beyond a certain level. Is someone who scored a 1400 statistically more likely than someone who got a 1300 to get a PhD?

Honest question, I’ve never seen any data about that.

re: #200 reine.de.tout

OR, people who can use existing knowledge to develop new knowledge.

This is one of the areas where education in math and science is so important.

Current levels of knowledge were BUILT ON previous discoveries and knowledge.
And current levels will be BUILT UPON by those who have a good background and know what it is they’re looking at and why it’s different from what’s already known.

It’s just how it is.

But there are different types of knowledge. Someone who has been buried in academia their whole career might know a lot about a given subject, but don’t have varied life experiences on which to draw.

There was a story about a bunch of guys working on a problem in on the spacestation a while back. They couldn’t solve the problem. Then one of them happened to stay at a hotel (or in someone’s home-I can’t remember) and the shower set-up gave him an idea on how to fix the problem. (I think it had to do with the positioning of the telescope).

My point being that the existing knowledge in his given field didn’t provide enough of a base, he had to have life experience to solve the problem.

re: #202 Jadespring

Oh I wish I could remember where I saw it. It was a creativity test of sorts. It asked one question. “List as many uses as you can for a paper clip.”

There isn’t enough paper.

Let’s start with: ear scratcher

Found it I think. [Link: www.indiana.edu…]

Creativity tests.

re: #199 Talking Point Detective

My belief, which has been borne out by a lot of research, is that meta-cognition is a very important variable that influences one’s academic performance. Essentially, it means self-knowledge, or knowledge about the process by which you learn; it comprises the executive functions of the process - knowledge of what enables you as an individual to learn well, knowledge of what strategies you can use to learn, the ability to evaluate your own learning and to adopt new strategies to compensate for weaknesses and take advantage of strengths.

My overall focus as an educator is to help students become more meta-cognitive in their learning processes. It is amazing how much of the underlying structures of our educational system actually work to undermine a student’s meta-cognitive processes. For example, the very notion of how students get evaluated, where they pass over the responsibility of evaluation to their teachers - essentially looking at evaluation as a black box; they submit work and it gets evaluated in some invisible process and then returned.

You know … this also involves a recognition and understanding of, and a refusal to feel inferior because of, those areas where you personally lack ability.

I know, for myself - when someone spews a whole bunch of facts my way, I can take them in and process them and come to a reasonable and rational conclusion fairly quickly. AND I know that five minutes later, I can explain my conclusion to someone else, BUT I cannot for the life of me recall ANY of the facts leading to that conclusion.

All of which gives me certain strengths (as far as being an employee is concerned - ability to make a quick decision), and those strengths would be weaknesses in other situations (where it would be necessary to lay out a stream of facts in order to inform or teach).

I did a LOT better when I stopped feeling like this quirk meant that something was wrong with me.

Anybody know basic LLC laws regarding display signage?

I purchased a van and am designing the decals: do I need to list my name + LLC on the end with my contractor’s license?

It may be state law for Hawaii.

re: #204 Obdicut

Oh, well, no, those really aren’t novel tasks, especially when compared to SAT scores. We’re just talking about vastly different things.

I also am not sure SAT scores are actually strongly correlated with getting college degrees/PhDs, beyond a certain level. Is someone who scored a 1400 statistically more likely than someone who got a 1300 to get a PhD?

Honest question, I’ve never seen any data about that.

I can still vividly remember seeing final exam questions as novel problems, regardless of how you think they weren’t.

Someone who scored 1300 is statistically more likely to get a PhD than someone who scores 1000. If you want to narrow the range down to 1300-1400 the difference will not be as significant as the social/cultural difference that may apply, as has been mentioned in many posts, but I am speaking of significant statistical predictors. Exceptions do not invalidate a rule.

re: #193 ggt

Well that and his Administration issuing a report that seeks to ultimately disband Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac is sure to put a crimp in the talking points from the right.

re: #201 Sergey Romanov

Note this section in the APA report:

So true.

With minority students it is a well-established phenomenon with respect to testing. Essentially, they perform more poorly because they will expect that they will perform more poorly. They believe their performance to be a function of luck of the draw, or perhaps their individual characteristics, rather than a function of how well they studied.

re: #211 lawhawk

Well that and his Administration issuing a report that seeks to ultimately disband Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac is sure to put a crimp in the talking points from the right.

I wouldn’t bet on it.

re: #210 Naso Tang

I can still vividly remember seeing final exam questions as novel problems, regardless of how you think they weren’t.

It’s not that I ‘think’ they weren’t, I’m just using a very different definition of ‘novel’ than you are. You can see from my post above what I mean by novel.

Someone who scored 1300 is statistically more likely to get a PhD than someone who scores 1000.

Sure. But then you have to ask yourself why they got that score in the first place; obviously, SAT scores are not measuring native intelligence. So as far as assessing the test’s value as a measurement of natural ability, it’s obviously not a good one. And SAT scores are mainly a test of academic skills, so I really consider that saying that further academic achievement is ‘novel’ is a very broad use of the term.

re: #209 BigPapa

It would depend on the state you’re in. Generally, you would need to post LLC, L.L.C., or something similar.

If you’re in Hawaii, Hawaii Statute § 428-105 covers the name:

The name of a limited liability company must contain “limited liability company” or the abbreviation “L.L.C.” or “LLC”. “Limited” may be abbreviated as “Ltd.”, and “company” may be abbreviated as “Co.” The letters in the name of a limited liability company must be letters of the English alphabet.

I just want to say is regardless of any problems or issues with Obama be glad that he’s capable of giving and eloquent speech when it’s the right time to do so. His comments on Egypt yesterday were great and emotional.

With my guy we get analogies like…. ” “I think the old expression is: ‘They’re not going to put the toothpaste back in the tube on this one.’”

I shake my head…..

re: #212 Talking Point Detective

To the extent that even being asked to identify their race before taking the test has a negative impact on their scores, which is depressingly fascinating.

re: #212 Talking Point Detective

So true.

With minority students it is a well-established phenomenon with respect to testing. Essentially, they perform more poorly because they will expect that they will perform more poorly. They believe their performance to be a function of luck of the draw, or perhaps their individual characteristics, rather than a function of how well they studied.

But that sounds like a PC analysis.

They perform poorly because they have not done what it takes to perform well, not (as implied) that they would do better if they just had more self confidence when taking the test.

The self confidence must start long before taking the test, and that relates again to the valid points about social environment issue.

re: #215 lawhawk

Damn, how’d you find that? I can’t connect to any hawaii.gov domain right now, sorta weird.

re: #217 Obdicut

To the extent that even being asked to identify their race before taking the test has a negative impact on their scores, which is depressingly fascinating.

Which is why Obama’s election was so damn important.

re: #218 Naso Tang

Ah, no. They perform worse if they’re asked to identify their race before taking the test, then if they’re not.

At CPAC, Mitch Daniels Touts Red Scare

Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels, the last of the possible Republican presidential candidates to address CPAC on Friday, strode to the podium at tonight’s Ronald Reagan Banquet and turned back the clock to the 1980s: the thing we have to fear, he said, is the growing Red Threat.

“In our nation, in our time, the friends of freedom have an assignment, as great as those of the 1860s, or the 1940s, or the long twilight of the Cold War,” he said. “As in those days, the American project is menaced by a survival-level threat.”

re: #145 RogueOne

I’ll see you Elizabeth Warren and raise you Jenny McCarthy.

She’s not stupid so much as she is committed to her (utterly wrong) viewpoint and very aggressive. As far as a confluence of genetics and environment go, she’s South Side Irish from Chicago.

re: #208 reine.de.tout

You know … this also involves a recognition and understanding of, and a refusal to feel inferior because of, those areas where you personally lack ability.

I know, for myself - when someone spews a whole bunch of facts my way, I can take them in and process them and come to a reasonable and rational conclusion fairly quickly. AND I know that five minutes later, I can explain my conclusion to someone else, BUT I cannot for the life of me recall ANY of the facts leading to that conclusion.

All of which gives me certain strengths (as far as being an employee is concerned - ability to make a quick decision), and those strengths would be weaknesses in other situations (where it would be necessary to lay out a stream of facts in order to inform or teach).

I did a LOT better when I stopped feeling like this quirk meant that something was wrong with me.

The tendency to personalize “mistakes” is a huge obstacle to learning.

When I began working as a teacher, I trained as a Montessori teacher. Montessori methodology employs the use of concrete materials to introduce abstract concepts. There are these fantastic materials, for example, that give you a concrete model for cubing a trinomial.

Anyway, during the training process for Montessori methodology, I would watch trainees actually go through the steps from learning a concept in the concrete form to learning the abstract corollary. Many would invariably say, “Oh, now I realize I can do math.”

Why? Because when they were kids they were mistakenly shown math in an abstract way - for example an algorithm for multiplying - without being given a way to understand it in a concrete form first. That methodology runs counter to the epistemology of how most people learn. But they would see that some other kids didn’t need to understand the concrete forms first - kids who wouldn’t say, “But why do you want me to cross out the eight and “carry” the one?,” or maybe kids who intuitively would understand how the abstract concept reflected the concrete task. Anyway, when kids who follow a very natural process of learning see other kids able to do a task because it was taught in a way that actually didn’t model most people’s learning processes, they would turn the “mistakes” inward, and say “Well, I can’t do math.”

And this process goes on for year after year. It is heart-breaking to watch when kids’ self-esteem is so battered by schooling. You can see it in their eyes. You start to talk about some learning task, and the get this blank look. They stop thinking about the words you’re saying, and they begin thinking to themselves “Oh, another occasion where I’m going to be exposed as someone who can’t do math.”

re: #224 Talking Point Detective

I thought I was terrible at math until my eighth-grade math teacher showed me I just needed to understand the whole system at once, that equations are just examples of rules, basically.

After that, it was easy.

re: #222 Killgore Trout

At CPAC, Mitch Daniels Touts Red Scare

Is it just me or do both CPAC and the Tea Party seem to appeal most to the people who haven’t been able to adapt to life since the Cold War ended? It’s like the modern right wing has no goddamn clue what to do with themselves now that communism is essentially dead.

re: #211 lawhawk

Well that and his Administration issuing a report that seeks to ultimately disband Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac is sure to put a crimp in the talking points from the right.

If Republicans are smart, they’ll take that report, have Paul Ryan make some minor improvements to it (maybe speed up the disbanding a small bit), and then adopt it as their own. If Obama is prepared to concede the fundamental point, let him do so. One thing Ronald Reagan did know was to accept when you’ve won the battle. And if you’ve won a victory, be a good winner. Of course those lessons were from the real Reagan, not Michelle Bachmann’s version of him.

re: #219 BigPapa

[Link: www.capitol.hawaii.gov…]

re: #218 Naso Tang

But that sounds like a PC analysis.

They perform poorly because they have not done what it takes to perform well, not (as implied) that they would do better if they just had more self confidence when taking the test.

The self confidence must start long before taking the test, and that relates again to the valid points about social environment issue.

Good point - both are factors. But understand that they don’t do what it takes to perform well because they don’t associate those tasks with performance,, they view performance as immutable, a function of their inherent characteristics.

re: #219 BigPapa

Damn, how’d you find that? I can’t connect to any hawaii.gov domain right now, sorta weird.

He ain’t the Lawhawk for nothin’!
;)

re: #225 Obdicut

I thought I was terrible at math until my eighth-grade math teacher showed me I just needed to understand the whole system at once, that equations are just examples of rules, basically.

After that, it was easy.

If someone could explain the point of binary math to me using the same system, that would be great. I just had a bunch of it on my Information Systems midterm and completely spaced on it. I don’t understand the point of it at all.

re: #214 Obdicut

It’s not that I ‘think’ they weren’t, I’m just using a very different definition of ‘novel’ than you are. You can see from my post above what I mean by novel.

“Novel” is in the eye of the beholder. I know when something is novel because I don’t have an immediate learned solution to it and need to consider many factors, including methods of analysis to find a solution. If that isn’t a description of applied intelligence I don’t know what is.

Sure. But then you have to ask yourself why they got that score in the first place; obviously, SAT scores are not measuring native intelligence. So as far as assessing the test’s value as a measurement of natural ability, it’s obviously not a good one. And SAT scores are mainly a test of academic skills, so I really consider that saying that further academic achievement is ‘novel’ is a very broad use of the term.

There are IQ tests that test for “native” intelligence and they are mostly applied to infacts or very young children without formal education. You know, in the vein of providing a crow with a worm in a bottle and a stick and seeing if it is smart enough to use the stick to get the worm, as some can do.

My definition of IQ is a measure of adult problem solving, which requires knowledge as well. If you are talking of “native” intelligence as a genetic feature, then were are not debating the same thing, nor do I think standard IQ tests that in any way that can be separated from the overall score.

re: #228 lawhawk

Title 428 is the LLC law, covering things like registered agents, names, and other requirements. The Hawaii site is kind of tough to navigate (and not particularly secure b/c of the link structure openly accessible?), but here’s the browsing link.

[Link: www.capitol.hawaii.gov…]

re: #231 Lidane

If someone could explain the point of binary math to me using the same system, that would be great. I just had a bunch of it on my Information Systems midterm and completely spaced on it. I don’t understand the point of it at all.

There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don’t.
:)

re: #226 Lidane

Is it just me or do both CPAC and the Tea Party seem to appeal most to the people who haven’t been able to adapt to life since the Cold War ended? It’s like the modern right wing has no goddamn clue what to do with themselves now that communism is essentially dead.

I think that’s a big problem for them. They are trying to roll back the clock to a time when they were relevant and had purpose. Anti-communist rhetoric is also the glue that holds together the alliance of libertarians, fiscal conservatives, and the religious right. Without the Red Menace they would have no reason to deal with each other.

re: #234 Varek Raith

There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don’t.
:)

The sad thing is, I understood that. =P

It still doesn’t make binary all that fun or interesting to learn.

re: #232 Naso Tang

“Novel” is in the eye of the beholder.

Yes, we’ve already established that we’re using different meanings for ‘novel’. I think your usage of it is so broad as to be rather irrelevant. You can see above for what I mean by ‘novel’; it depends on the individual what is novel to them.

SAT tests, which test for academic performance, are kind of necessarily going to predict future academic performance. That’s not that surprising.

re: #217 Obdicut

To the extent that even being asked to identify their race before taking the test has a negative impact on their scores, which is depressingly fascinating.

Sure - we’ve talked about that before, but I’m also talking about a different phenomenon here the stereotype threat. I’m talking about studies where different groups are compared in their test-taking results without that type of self-identification before they take the test. It’s related to the “acting white” phenomenon that negatively affects minority performance - also related to stereotype threat but not quite the same thing.

re: #222 Killgore Trout

At CPAC, Mitch Daniels Touts Red Scare

The speech transcript - “raison debt”.

re: #224 Talking Point Detective

The tendency to personalize “mistakes” is a huge obstacle to learning.

When I began working as a teacher, I trained as a Montessori teacher. Montessori methodology employs the use of concrete materials to introduce abstract concepts. There are these fantastic materials, for example, that give you a concrete model for cubing a trinomial.

Anyway, during the training process for Montessori methodology, I would watch trainees actually go through the steps from learning a concept in the concrete form to learning the abstract corollary. Many would invariably say, “Oh, now I realize I can do math.”

Why? Because when they were kids they were mistakenly shown math in an abstract way - for example an algorithm for multiplying - without being given a way to understand it in a concrete form first. That methodology runs counter to the epistemology of how most people learn. But they would see that some other kids didn’t need to understand the concrete forms first - kids who wouldn’t say, “But why do you want me to cross out the eight and “carry” the one?,” or maybe kids who intuitively would understand how the abstract concept reflected the concrete task. Anyway, when kids who follow a very natural process of learning see other kids able to do a task because it was taught in a way that actually didn’t model most people’s learning processes, they would turn the “mistakes” inward, and say “Well, I can’t do math.”

And this process goes on for year after year. It is heart-breaking to watch when kids’ self-esteem is so battered by schooling. You can see it in their eyes. You start to talk about some learning task, and the get this blank look. They stop thinking about the words you’re saying, and they begin thinking to themselves “Oh, another occasion where I’m going to be exposed as someone who can’t do math.”

I’m a Montessori Parent. The 5 children my son “graduated” with from “6th” grade in Montessori (6-9 classroom), all have gone to different schools and are in high school now. ALL stand-out from the current peers in the area of self-confidence. Peer pressure isn’t an issue.

I tell people that the Montessori child is comfortable in his own skin.

Understanding why testing and grades are important? That was a battle for a couple of of them in Junior High. They seem to have adjusted tho.

re: #236 Lidane

I can give you at least 1000 reasons to learn binary.

/

re: #221 Obdicut

Ah, no. They perform worse if they’re asked to identify their race before taking the test, then if they’re not.

The setting of a test affects the attitude and performance I am sure, but most tests will not ask that question unless testing for the response to the question, so how is it relevant to the overall situation? All I am saying is that IQ is at least as dependent on environment as genetics, and IQ as we normally use it is not designed to measure a “native” (as you call it) quotient.

re: #226 Lidane

Is it just me or do both CPAC and the Tea Party seem to appeal most to the people who haven’t been able to adapt to life since the Cold War ended? It’s like the modern right wing has no goddamn clue what to do with themselves now that communism is essentially dead.

He’s not talking about commies, he’s talking about red as in “red ink”.

re: #236 Lidane

The sad thing is, I understood that. =P

It still doesn’t make binary all that fun or interesting to learn.

010101110110100001111001? 0100100101110100’01110011 00100000011001100111010101101110!

re: #222 Killgore Trout

At CPAC, Mitch Daniels Touts Red Scare

Yes, but give Daniels his due, Killgore. He used that as metaphor to call attention to the nations budget problems, and part of his solution is to call a truce in the Culture Wars to allow the Debt to be tackled.

re: #210 Naso Tang

I can still vividly remember seeing final exam questions as novel problems, regardless of how you think they weren’t.

Someone who scored 1300 is statistically more likely to get a PhD than someone who scores 1000. If you want to narrow the range down to 1300-1400 the difference will not be as significant as the social/cultural difference that may apply, as has been mentioned in many posts, but I am speaking of significant statistical predictors. Exceptions do not invalidate a rule.

Actually, SAT scores are not a very good predictor of academic success. SATs are not a very valid measure (using the term validity in a technical way) of much other than how a person does on an SAT test.

re: #245 Dark_Falcon

We need a national discussion on the use of metaphors. Personally, I blame public education./

001100010010011110100001101101110011
Very useful, that one.

re: #240 ggt

I’m a Montessori Parent. The 5 children my son “graduated” with from “6th” grade in Montessori (6-9 classroom), all have gone to different schools and are in high school now. ALL stand-out from the current peers in the area of self-confidence. Peer pressure isn’t an issue.

I tell people that the Montessori child is comfortable in his own skin.

Understanding why testing and grades are important? That was a battle for a couple of of them in Junior High. They seem to have adjusted tho.

Yeah - a good Montessori school has to teach test-taking as a life skill.

re: #246 Talking Point Detective

Actually, SAT scores are not a very good predictor of academic success. SATs are not a very valid measure (using the term validity in a technical way) of much other than how a person does on an SAT test.

I had a hard time with standardized tests, until I realized that education in this country was not equal for a long time (i.e. American South-segregation). Without standardized testing we would have no way of tracking which schools (or groups of schools) are working.

I don’t think they serve the individual well, but I can’t think any way around using them as a tool to gauge the system as a whole.

10001110101

The Russians still get better scores on standardized tests than Americans do. :B

/braces